Could Harry have been prophesied?

This theory ties in my ideas about Grindelwald, why the fact of centuars continues to irk me, and the idea that Voldemort and Harry are not related (among other things.) Mind you, my ideas are always in flux, so nothing I say here is finite. Please disprove and affirm as much as you can...

Could Harry have been prophecied?

Perhaps Voldemort is obsessed with defeating/killing Harry because Harry has been prophecied to be the one to put an end to the threat of the abuse of the Dark Arts. This would imply, then, that the threat of a Dark Lord overtaking the wizarding world does not begin and end with the rise of Voldemort, but may have begun during the era of Grindelwald.

Of course, prophecies can never be regarded as "truth," per say, but they are difficult to ignore once a course of events follow a particular predicted path; and, when knowing of a prophecy, a devout believer can make things happen to ensure it is either defeated or followed through.

Thus, perhaps Grindelwald, a great Dark wizard, had knowledge of a particular prophecy, one that foretold of the end of the threat of the Dark Arts, i.e. the threat of a Dark Lord. Being a Dark wizard that felt it his destiny/duty to aid in the rise of the Dark Arts, he felt that he must equip the one he believed had the potential to become the greatest Dark Sorcerer in wizarding history...Tom Riddle.

In order to follow this part of the theory, we would have to assume that Grindelwald was a professor at Hogwarts, perhaps the DADA during the time when Tom Riddle first became a student. This, actually, is not too far-fetched (as pointed out in the "A great theory I found..." thread in MNet), as Grindelwald was defeated by DD in 1945, 50 years before Ginny found Tom Riddle's diary in CoS (i.e. he was around when Riddle was a Hogwarts student); I'm just taking it a step further.

Now, let us say that Grindelwald had not yet been discovered as a Dark wizard during his time at Hogwarts. After all, DD was, as yet, only a professor that could suspect things, but not necessarily act on them (as with Snape and Quirell.) Having knowledge of this prophecy foils Grindelwald's ideas of power because it mentions, at some point, that one Dark Wizard will triumph in taking a powerful hold on the wizarding world where a previous Dark Wizard fails, and he begins to do research on prospective students to Hogwarts. Upon research, he finds that a certain Tom Riddle is the "last" heir of Slytherin that is disenchanted with his life among muggles. Thus, when Riddle begins school, Grindelwald immediately takes him under his wing, using Riddle's disgust with his father as a way to encourage his learning of the Dark Arts, so that, gradually, Riddle begins to believe that he can use the Dark Arts to gain enough power to change the past, present, and future.

After all, it is revealed in CoS that Riddle knew of his heirship when he was 11 (i.e. during his first year at Hogwarts); says the 16-year-old memory of Riddle to Harry on page 317, US version: It had taken me five whole years to find out everything I could about the Chamber of Secrets and discover the secret entrance....
Perhaps Grindelwald, knowing the prophecy of "Harry," believed that he could change what was written as destined to happen if he informed the Dark Wizard-that-would-triumph-where-he-failed at an early enough age so that this Dark Wizard (Riddle) would have years of preparation and apprenticeship, and would be able to seek out this prophecied "Great" wizard (Harry) before he was powerful enough to defend himself, thereby ensuring the rise of the Dark Arts.

Little did Grindelwald, or Riddle, know that DD became aware of the same prophecy, and DD's effort to ensure that the prophecy came true is/was greater than Grindelwald's effort to defeat it. Perhaps during their battle, Grindelwald (in the fashion of all evil villains) lets it spill that though he may be defeated, there is another that will succeed in establishing the reign of the Dark Arts. DD takes this last declaration to heart, and shortly after, comes to suspect Riddle, especially after Riddle opens the Chamber of Secrets (which Riddle does as a way to express his grief for Grindelwald, but also to show his defeated mentor that he will continue what they had begun. ) Thus, DD does some research of his own based on his idea that Riddle's reign will come to pass, and finds out that the only person that can defeat this Dark Wizard, who is the "last" heir of Slytherin, is an "heir" of Gryffindor.

At this point, the theory can fork: Either DD is an "heir" of Gryffindor, and he realizes that at the point Riddle becomes powerful, he (DD) will be getting on in years and, well, won't be as invincible; or, basically, he is not an "heir," but begins to do research to find an "heir."

So, he follows the line of the "heirs" of Gryffindor in the years that follow (as Riddle is still in his formidable years, and it not quite as masterful in magic...yet). And, as yet, he does not find an "heir" that shows the potential of being "Great" or equal in training to that of Riddle. Until, that is, he comes upon James Potter. Thus, he takes James under his wing, but not as early as Grindewald took on Riddle. As a result, James is not as proficient or keen a wizard as Riddle/Voldemort. Eventually, while James falls in love and marries Lily (a bright and proficient charms student), Voldemort reveals himself and begins to reign terror on the wizarding world. At this point, DD finds it imperative to inform James and Lily about the prophecy, about why DD taught James so much and what not. It just so happens that Lily is pregnant...

Now, Voldemort, still aware of the prophecy, knows of the potentiality of being defeated. Thus, he has done his homework as well, and with the help of the Death Eaters eventually comes to suspect the Potters. He learns that Lily has given birth to a son, and realizes that this son could be his downfall (as Harry could be taught as early Voldemort to be a powerful Great Wizard.) So, he seeks them out, and, thanks to Pettigrew, finds that they reside in Godric Hollow.

Hence, Voldemort goes to kill Harry, but must first confront James (to ensure the blood line ends with Harry), and then goes to kill Harry. Little does Voldemort know, but much to the delight of DD, that Lily had taken precautions against this very instance. She had done her homework, and being masterful in charms, came upon a countercharm that would protect her son, though it would cost her her life. So, Lily dies for Harry, and in his overconfidence (as is a plague with villians) believes that nothing now stands in his way of killing Harry and defeating the prophecy his mentor, Grindelwald, had trained him to defeat. And, well, we know what occurs at this point...

Well, I know that there may be holes in this theory as large as lakes, but I thought it was worth mentioning to see if it would ignite any ideas in my fellow forum members. So, pick it apart, yo, and let me know what you think.

Is this a plausible theory?
Yes! It really makes sense :bigtu: I've never mentioned that someone told Tom Riddle about his heirship. We know only one dark wizard - Grindewald. So it is possible. Good point.

After a first read, I can't find anything particularly wrong with it. In fact, it incorporates some of my favorite theories (such as the charm that cost Lily her life), and does so in a plausable, if long-winded, manner.

I agree with everything except the "heir" of Gryffindor. But that is a minor issue, overall, I like the theory.

TheSortingHat

It's a very plausible theory. The only problem I found with it after a first read is that Riddle set the Basilisk out of grief for Grindelwald. Gwld was defeated in 1945 and Riddle graduated 1944. Still, it doesn't mess with your idea that Grindelwald taught Riddle. Otherwise, it's a great theory.

Thats a good theory. This is one that I actually believe.

Excellant theory! :) Of course maybe one reason I think so is that my sister and I developed a theory almost exactly the same as that about a month ago. Cool coincidence ;) So I find it very plausible :tu:

I read that twice trying to think of some major flaw...but I can't find any. That really is a great theory and congrats on finding it. (You too, Jaded!)

I had never even thought of that as a possibility. I guess my brain is to slow to pick up on these things. :D

Anyways, I think that is a great theory and we might find out some of it to be true in the future.

Originally posted by jaded
Excellant theory! :) Of course maybe one reason I think so is that my sister and I developed a theory almost exactly the same as that about a month ago. Cool coincidence ;) So I find it very plausible :tu:

Isn't that scary, when people will vibe on the most "out-there" type of thoughts, but never know it until its recorded somewhere else?

Uncannny.

Originally posted by TheSortingHat
After a first read, I can't find anything particularly wrong with it. In fact, it incorporates some of my favorite theories (such as the charm that cost Lily her life), and does so in a plausable, if long-winded, manner.

I agree with everything except the "heir" of Gryffindor. But that is a minor issue, overall, I like the theory.

TheSortingHat

This intrigues me, TSH. I only really included the "heir" part because it's the only one that sounded plausible to me, and I thought I'd incorporate it in a way that didn't imply that Harry and Voldemort were related. But, of course, there may be other theories.

I'm curious - why don't you like the "heir" theories?

Heh, now its time for a rant against Heirs - when I do this, it tends to get long rather quickly, so be warned.

I have long been at odds with the whole idea that Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. It doesn't seem to make sense, although the evidence can be interpreted to say that this is the case. Recently, however, I realized why I didn't like the Heir theory, and came to grips with it - I can now support it with slight modifications.

Firstly, I'd like to clarify exactly what Heir means. An heir is not necessarily the descendant of a particular person - it can be and often is, but it isn't part of the definition of the term. Salazar Slytherin placed much emphasis on blood and the judging of persons based on familial relations. He was also set up as a not-quite-evil guy who we still shouldn't like, as a foil to Godric Gryffindor - a person we are conditioned to honor for his strength of character.

Now, we know that the books emphasize the foolishness of judging someone based on "so-called purity of blood." Slytherin's Heir is a direct descendant of Salazar himself - Slytherin placed importance on that relationship.

Godric Gryffindor, on the other hand, did not care who somebody was born but whom they grew to be. He liked having Muggle-born students at Hogwarts, and, in my opinion, would care much more about what the character of a person was than who their parents were.

Many people make the mistake of assuming that an heir would be a descendent of the person who is granting heirship. The precedent for this was Riddle's relationship to Slytherin. However, Gryffindor, should he have an Heir, wouldn't care whether his heir was related to him or not - as long as he or she had the classic Gryffindor characteristics.

So, what bothers me about Heir theories is that they generally imply that Harry was related to Gryffindor - which I don't like, for the above reasons. I also don't like the idea of Gryffindor even having an Heir - but that has no basis in fact, its merely an instinct, and can be overridden for a good theory like this one.

TheSortingHat

PS - this was rather long and off-topic. Feel free to move it, should that be necessary.

pasalita, that is a very good theory! It's actually believable and pretty interesting.

Oh, and to Kneazle, how did you find out Tom Riddle gratuated in 1944?

xoxo, Sabrina

Another thing against the heir theories is that it was only used in Chamber of Secrets. I don't remember hearing anything about being heir after the second book. I would think that Voldemort would have mentioned something during his speech to Harry and the death eaters...

This is a really great theory. I like the idea of a powerful dark wizard taking Riddle under his wing to help him start his path to evil. This would explain that Voldemort did not do this all on his own, but with help from the generation before him.

TheSorting Hat- I always used to belive that Harry was the heir of Gryffindor, but your ideas are making a lot more sense. Only Slytherin placed emphasis on blood, so his heir would be his desendant. There could be a desendant of Gryffindor out there, but that would not be his true heir, the one who shares his characteristics.

Wow, that theory makes a lot of sence. Some of what you said I have been wondering about recently and thinking that it could be a possibility. Great job.

Originally posted by HarryPotterFan01
Oh, and to Kneazle, how did you find out Tom Riddle gratuated in 1944?
Sorry, I got the dates slightly confused. He'd actually have graduted in '45. In CoS (1992-3) we're taken back 50 years to Tom's fifth year in Hogwarts. That would be 1942-3. He'd graduate two years later (1944-5). I forgot that he was in his fifth year for a moment-- being sixteen I thought he'd' graduate the next year. :shrug: So that is how I got '44. But it is '45. :)

Originally posted by TheSortingHat
PS - this was rather long and off-topic. Feel free to move it, should that be necessary.

I don't think it was off-topic at all! (which is why I posed the question in the first place). I found this to be very interesting, and it allows for a wider range of perspective and expectation. The more outside ideas, the better. Isn't that what these forums are about? :D

By the way, thanks to everyone for the big ups!:o

GREAT THEORY! *applauds* I've read it before, but it's still great. I'm too slow and stupid to find any fault with it, so maybe I can add my own ideas.

I love of the idea of some ancient prophecy lying around somewhere. Prophecy always adds something mystrious to a story, as well as sense of destiny. And I agree that it probably deals with the fall of the dark arts forever. The reason Grindewald could have been so desperate to find an apprentice, is for maybe for that very reason. That this prophecy may have stated that with the fall of the last Dark Lord, a new era in magic and its use would arise, where the dark arts would be exposed and not allowed to fester (no Knockturn Alley in other words). Harry, is probably the prophesied one who will do this. So, I think Harry's birth and Voldemort's rise were prophesied, and I think we'll see that prophecy in the story.

Any, those are my thoughts. Not very inciteful, but oh well.:sigh:

:bigtu: pasalita. That's a monster theory and seems very plausible to me. That would be very good to read in future books. :)

Originally posted by LewsTherin
GREAT THEORY! *applauds* I've read it before, but it's still great. I'm too slow and stupid to find any fault with it, so maybe I can add my own ideas.

I love of the idea of some ancient prophecy lying around somewhere. Prophecy always adds something mystrious to a story, as well as sense of destiny. And I agree that it probably deals with the fall of the dark arts forever. The reason Grindewald could have been so desperate to find an apprentice, is for maybe for that very reason. That this prophecy may have stated that with the fall of the last Dark Lord, a new era in magic and its use would arise, where the dark arts would be exposed and not allowed to fester (no Knockturn Alley in other words). Harry, is probably the prophesied one who will do this. So, I think Harry's birth and Voldemort's rise were prophesied, and I think we'll see that prophecy in the story.

Any, those are my thoughts. Not very inciteful, but oh well.:sigh:

LewTherin: you're supercool :D ! Thanks for the compliment!

I really like what you've added to the theory. I love the idea that Harry will be revolutionary in the sense that he will lay the groundwork for a new era in magic. It qualifies the idea that Harry was prophecied in a way that I couldn't even fathom!

Originally posted by pasalita
LewTherin: you're supercool:D! Thanks for the compliment!

I really like what you've added to the theory. I love the idea that Harry will be revolutionary in the sense that he will lay the groundwork for a new era in magic. It qualifies the idea that Harry was prophecied in a way that I couldn't even fathom!
Aw, cut it out pasalita, you're making me blush!:o Just read Wheel of Time, it really helps with theories of any sort.

About 8 months I developed my own theory (actually it's more like a fan fic) about the Harry prophecy thing. Why? I just found it odd that Dumbledore seemed to always be in the right place at the right time and always seemed to know exactly what was going to happen. He may not have all the details, but he has a general idea of what is going to happen.

My "theory" starts with siamese twins that lived hundreds of years ago, Illiam and Illian. They shared everything but a neck and head. The boys were poor (as their father had left the day of their birth because of their freakishness). Their mother, a kind and gentle person, raised them the best she could. Sadly, when the boys were in their early teens, she passed away.

Now the boys tried several things to support themselves. The joined a carnival. They drew loads of people with their entertaining routines of juggling, comedy,etc. However, the boys soon realised that everyone was laughing at them instead of with them. So they returned to tehir hometown. Unfortunately, no one would hire them for fear of their oddity driving customers away. Fortunately, the editor of the local magazine found them a job where they wouldn't be exposed to the public...writing.

Together the boys, who ALWAYS agreed about everything, became making predicitions about weather and crop reports, etc. They became famous for their predicitions...not for being right, but for always being wrong. So wrong they were that when they predicted rain, everyone planned picnics and outdoor activities because they knew it would be a beautiful day. When they predicted a bad crop season, all the farmers celebrated with a party as they knew it would be a banner year.

Strangely, this knack for being inaccurate didn't faze the boys. They were just happy to making a modest income to support themselves and feel as if they belong in society.

Then one day, the boys starting projecting far out into the future. Several hundred year into the future. They predicted it would be dark times for the wizarding world. An evil Lord would be seeking complete control. There would be a lad, a child (The Boy Who Lived), who would somehow manage to stop the Dark Lord's uprising sending him into exile for a number of years. The Dark Lord would return, when the lad was older and they would duel again. (The actual prophecy was much longer) BUT...as they neared the conclusion of their prophecy, something strange, something that had never happened before in their lives...happened.

As my story goes, Dumbledore, who was in his study reasearching ways to stop Voldemort, came across this prediction in a rather old and obscure text. Just as concluded reading, McGonagall broke into his office to inform him that the Potters were dead, but their boy, Harry, managed to escape Voldemort's attack and that Voldemort has disappeared. Dumbledore, an admitted skeptic of prophecies, could not ignore what was staring him so blindly in the face. He knew that Illiam and Illian may have had something.

Throughout Harry's years at Hogwarts, Dumbledore used the prophecy as a guide. With each passing event, Dumbledore's believe in the prophecy grew stronger. This is why he knows the circumstances in what will happen, but not the details. This is how he knows to send Fawkes and the Sorting Hat to Harry in COS.

Unfortunately, what he doesn't know is the final outcome. You see as Illiam and Illian drew close to the end of their prophecy, something that had never happened before happened...they disagreed. You see, Illiam predicted that the Dark Lord would succeed, kill the boy who was now almost a man, "And our world would live in darkness for a thousand years or more..." Illian, on the other hand, predicted that the Boy, now almost a Man, would prevail, kill the Dark Lord, inprison all his supporters, "And our world would live in peace for a thousand years or more..."

Sadly, the boys never had an opportunity to reconcile their difference of opinions. You see, their single heart, saddened by this first disagreement, gave out the very night they write their seperate conclusions. They were found dead the very next morning.

Sorry, it's a bit long. Hope some of you enjoyed it. In my mind, it explains how Dumbledore seems to know what, when, and where things are going to happen. He's not always right (as is the case at the end of GOF), but he has a stong basis to go by.

Respectfully Submitted By

dtpoet

Yes, Harry was prophecied, but here's my theory on it: Professor Trelawney predicted that Harry would be the greatest wizard ever. Dumbledore says in book 3 when harry tells him about her prediction that "that brings her total up to two." Then what was the first? This. Voldemort heard about the prophecy and wanted Harry killed when he was young, before he could present a threat. Why does James say "Take Harry and run" when Voldemort arrived? Because he knew Voldemort was there for Harry. That was the reason Voldemort wanted to kill Harry, and Dumbledore will tell Harry this at the end of book 7, he will finally answer the question Harry asked in his first year.

Also, other people know about the prophecy. Harry is the only one that doesn't. Ollivander says, "I think it is clear we can expect great things from you." Hagrid says that Harry will be a "thumpin' good wizard".

Originally posted by hermeeownninny
Yes, Harry was prophecied, but here's my theory on it: Professor Trelawney predicted that Harry would be the greatest wizard ever. Dumbledore says in book 3 when harry tells him about her prediction that "that brings her total up to two." Then what was the first? This. Voldemort heard about the prophecy and wanted Harry killed when he was young, before he could present a threat. Why does James say "Take Harry and run" when Voldemort arrived? Because he knew Voldemort was there for Harry. That was the reason Voldemort wanted to kill Harry, and Dumbledore will tell Harry this at the end of book 7, he will finally answer the question Harry asked in his first year.

Also, other people know about the prophecy. Harry is the only one that doesn't. Ollivander says, "I think it is clear we can expect great things from you." Hagrid says that Harry will be a "thumpin' good wizard".

Hm. I've seen this mentioned before (re: Trelawney's first REAL prediction), but I've always been inclined to find it questionable, especially with regards to my intent of posting the theory.

Don't get me wrong, I think that it's a valid contribution and idea, but I wanted to post an idea that suggested another point of perspective, that took the story of "Harry" out of its contemporary aspects (what with always connecting it to recurring characters in the novels) by grounding it in the tradition and history that is implied to preserve the wizarding world/magic. I like the idea of stumbling upon an "ancient" prophecy, as, I'm sure, soothsayers were probably not absent in the early wizarding years (i.e. according to Greek mythology). That's just what I based the theory on, more or less.

But, again, I think that there is validity to your point. It could very well be a possibility!

Professor Trelawney predicted that Harry would be the greatest wizard ever. Dumbledore says in book 3 when harry tells him about her prediction that "that brings her total up to two."

"That brings her total true predictions up to two" How could he have known that the first prediction was true yet? Harry hasn't proven himself as the greatest wizard ever yet. Or maybe your'e referring to the fact that he practically killed Voldy when he was an infant, and therefore makes him the greatest wizard.

Dumbledore, who was in his study reasearching ways to stop Voldemort, came across this prediction in a rather old and obscure text. Just as concluded reading, McGonagall broke into his office to inform him that the Potters were dead

For the record, Dumbledore tells McGonagall about the Potters being dead. Just thought you might like to know so your fanfic isn't messed up. By the way, I really like your theory as a story, dtpoet. Do you think I could maybe read your fanfic? It sounds really interesting.:D

I like the theory, in part but, as the sortinghat said I just can't get in to the whole 'heir' thing. I look on it this way, although you probably wont agree: Why did Volemort develop such a hatred of muggles and half-bloods? Salthazar Slytherin hated them for no apparent reason other than prejudice, (ie. he was a racist of the Wizarding World,) much in the same way that the Malfoy's hate - because they don't know better. Voldemort however had the betrayl of his muggle father as a drive; a reason to hate. Now I'm not saying that Voldemort's right to hate, (Racism is never right), and I'm not defending him at all, but he has 'a motivation' if you like - revenge. This, in my eyes, is what sets him apart from the other Slytherins; his hatred is driven by an emotion and not just ignorance. And this, people, is my very long-winded way of saying that I don't think he is the heir of Slytherin as he doesn't just 'hate for the sake of hateing', whatever else he's guilty of and I think, if there even is an heir, it's more likely to be someone like the Malfoys. Did you understand that, coz I'm not sure I do?! :??:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thanksssamigo
[B]

"That brings her total true predictions up to two" How could he have known that the first prediction was true yet? Harry hasn't proven himself as the greatest wizard ever yet. Or maybe your'e referring to the fact that he practically killed Voldy when he was an infant, and therefore makes him the greatest wizard.

In the books you've already seen evidence of Harry's power. Yes, how he almost killed voldy, but more than that. Hermione says it herself at the end of book 1 that there are more important things than books and cleverness, and what Harry has (friendship and bravery) makes him a great wizard. Also, when Harry gets angry, he can make magic happen without meaning to- similar to Dumbledore's "aura of anger/magic" when he gets angry (with Crouch jr in book 4) and we all know Dumbledore is a great wizard.

Also, if you notice, pretty much everything Harry does in the climactic scenes of the books, he doesn't rely on magic. He keeps a level head and reacts on instinct. If you've read the Sword of Truth series, what makes a great wizard is knowing when not to use magic. The main character in that series (the greatest wizard for 3,000 years) relies on instinct and anger to release his magic, and isn't that what Harry does? You can know all the spells in the world but when you're faced with danger and you freeze or panic, that doesn't make you that good of a wizard.

:yup:
Great thoughts.

Originally posted by hermeeownninny
Yes, Harry was prophecied, but here's my theory on it: Professor Trelawney predicted that Harry would be the greatest wizard ever. Dumbledore says in book 3 when harry tells him about her prediction that "that brings her total up to two." Then what was the first? This. Voldemort heard about the prophecy and wanted Harry killed when he was young, before he could present a threat. Why does James say "Take Harry and run" when Voldemort arrived? Because he knew Voldemort was there for Harry. That was the reason Voldemort wanted to kill Harry, and Dumbledore will tell Harry this at the end of book 7, he will finally answer the question Harry asked in his first year.

Also, other people know about the prophecy. Harry is the only one that doesn't. Ollivander says, "I think it is clear we can expect great things from you." Hagrid says that Harry will be a "thumpin' good wizard".

I TOTALLY agree with this. I really, really feel that Harry is some link to a better and bigger relm of magic.

I also think that Harry will become the most powerful wizard of his (our)time. I think that Dumbledore realizes this, and is amuzed by the fact that he has the chance to teach Harry.

Just to clarify, with regards to the idea that Trelawney's first prediction is, in fact, the ancient "prophecy" I theorized, my question is this: How OLD is Trelawney?

I ask because in order for the idea about Trelawney's first prediction to supplement my thoughts on the prophecy, Trelawney would have had to be around during Grindelwald's days at Hogwarts. But, I don't see that as a possibility in this case because McGonagell makes a remark about the time when Trelawney first came to Hogwarts, which McGonagell couldn't well know unless she was teaching at Hogwarts prior to Trelawney's hire.

Hm.

Great Theory!

Is this the passage you're referring to?

PoA, p.109 (US edition); Professor McGonagall said,
"Then you should know, Potter, that Sibyll Trelawney has predicted the death of one student a year since she arrived at this school. None of them has died yet. Seeing death omens is her favorite way of greeting a new class. If it were not for the fact that I never speak ill of my colleagues --"
That's all that seems relevant in that passage. But perhaps there is another that I'm not remembering?

The HP Lexicon doesn't have any comments on Trelawney's age or tenure at Hogwarts. She might be vain enough to use some kind of potion to keep her looking younger than she is.

Originally posted by HogwartsChaplain
Great Theory!

Is this the passage you're referring to?


That's all that seems relevant in that passage. But perhaps there is another that I'm not remembering?

The HP Lexicon doesn't have any comments on Trelawney's age or tenure at Hogwarts. She might be vain enough to use some kind of potion to keep her looking younger than she is.

Yes, that's the passage I was thinking about, which is why I'm not so keen to believe that Trelawney's first prediction isn't quite an "ancient" prophecy. Again, this doesn't mean that the Trelawney theory isn't valid, but it just doesn't seem to fit with the theory I had originally posted, unless, like you said HogwartsChaplain, she is vain enough to drink a potion that keeps her looking younger than she really is.

My theory is that not only is Harry prophesied but that Ron and Hermione are also Prophesied to be at Harry's side. Harry is to be helped by a muggle born AND purebreed wizard.

It adds something to the train station scene in PS/SS. I believe that the whole scene of Harry being lost and know knowing how to get to Platform Nine and Three Quarters was part of this.

THis was all done so Harry could meet Ron and his family. THey help him and he forms a friendship with Ron.

And it would also explain why Hermione is a Griffendor and not a Revanclaw. The sorting hat knew her role and sorted her in the same house as Harry.

And if you read the books you notice that something always prevents BOTH Ron and Hermione from being at Harry's side during the final part of the book.

PS/SS: Hermione helps ROn who was hurt in the Chess game

COS: Hermione is pertifed ROn is with Harry in the chamber

POA: Hermione and Harry go abck in time. ROn is hurt

GOF: Its Harry and Cedric

I think that when the final battle happens it will be Harry with BOTH Hermione and Ron and they will play a major role in it. Either Harry Scarifices his life allowing ROn and Hermione to live and defeat VOldermot. OR ROn and Hermione scarface their lives for Harry allowing him to win.

This is a great thread. I love the original theory and dtpoet's "story" about the siamese twins.

Trelawney's "first correct prediction" has had to come to pass already, otherwise how would anyone know it was correct? Maybe it had to do with the defeat of Grindelwald, and the rise of another greater Dark Lord, Voldemort. And Trelawney could be older than McGonnagall or Dumbledore. She may have only started at Hogwarts recently compared to them. Or she could be younger. We don't know yet.

Now the idea of Voldy being a protege of Grindelwald is nice, except for one thing, the personality of great evil characters is such that they are loath to share their secrets and/or power. Voldemort has no protege, merely followers (and syncophants). Maybe Grindelwald did show Tom Riddle a few things, who knows? Or maybe Tom Riddle was able to spy on Grindelwald and learn a few things, especially what NOT to do.

However, the point is that someone did tell Tom Riddle he was the heir of Slytherin. His mother couldn't she died, his father was a muggle and probably didn't know anyhow. So who did tell him? Or did he research it when he was at Hogwarts during his first year? He would be naturally curopus about his wizarding heritage, and anxious to find out about his dead wizarding relatives. If he looked in wizarding genealogy books--which I imagine is a subject avidly followed by many wizarding families--he could find out he was an heir of Slytherin.

faubert, your idea that all three will be there at the final showdown with Voldemort is nice. But it doesn't have to be prophecy, merely plotting on the part of JKR. I, too want to learn more about the centaurs and their "findings" over the centuries.

That's a stunning theory pasalita, very plausible. Who knows?

We definitely need to know more about Grindelwald. He's an important figure in magical history. Presumably Hermione has read about him already, in Great Wizarding Events of the 20th Century or some such book.

Let's look at Book 1. Harry's interferance was not required to protect the stone, he was actually the only chance for Voldemort to get the stone. Dumbledore saved Harry at the last second.

Book 2. Dumbledore obviously knew everything, thus sent Fawkes to kill basilisk and heal Harry from a mortal wound.

Book 3. Direct intervention from Dumbledore allows Harry to save Sirius.

Book 4. Insufficient information, can only speculate that Dumbledore would know what's happening underneath his very (long) nose.

Dumbledore seems to be making sure that Harry goes throught those chalenges, that he accoumulates experience fighting evil. Dumbledore encourages Harry to explore grounds with Invisiblity Cloak. etc

Hmm, i think you have a good point, BUT, if Dumbledore knew wouldnt he just take Quirrel to Askaban in the first book?

Quirrel was not a threat to anyone, well except mayby Unicorns.
And he had to let Harry face Voldemort.

I think you maybe on to something. Maybe he is preparing Harry for whats to come. Maybe he has a gut feeling that he would need all the experience he needs because maybe, something we don't know yet, that he might be the only one who can defeat Voldie. There is a clue though. When Harry tells Dumbledore about Voldie regaining his body again, Dumbledore had a look of triumph in his eye. Maybe he knows things that Harry doesn't know yet. Maybe now is the best time to get voldie???

Originally posted by Elensil
Quirrel was not a threat to anyone, well except mayby Unicorns.
And he had to let Harry face Voldemort.

Yes, lets send an 11-year-old boy and his freinds against the evil wizard who has killed and rampaged his way across the wizarding world...

Wait on, that doesnt make any sense. I'm fairly certain that Dumbledore wouldnt send Harry in there if he had a choice. I imagine he knows something the rest of us dont. It's very possible Dumbledore knows Harry is the best hope of winning but I still think he isint sending Harry into these situations, more being prepared if it does happen...

That is my suspicion as well...

Harry is the Chose One!
but we already knew that from book one...

It isn't Dumbledore putting Harry into these situations it is Voldemort.
Harry just has to be given a fighting chance. One day he will not be in Hogwarts or with the Dursleys and where will he be then?

To Fuchsia:

Dumbledore is not interested in Harry's fighting chance, Dumbledore is interested in the result. In book one Dumbledore clearly states that it would have been impossible for Voldemort to obtain the stone. When Dumbledore arrives to save Harry, he sais that he expected Harry to be there. He had made sure Harry would be there by providing him with an Invisibility cloak.

On the other hand evidence can be interpreted differently.

His fighting chance IS the result. If he doesn't win there is no result.

Voldemort may not have been able to get the stone but there is other damage he could do.

I think this holds some truth to it i definatly think Harry is or will be preparing for bigger things

I think Dumbledore is wise enough to know that Harry probably has a lot of traits in common with his mother and father. Although we don't know an exceptional amount about Lily or James, it seems that perhaps Harry has inherited their daring and bravery, and as a result Dumbledore could probably guess that Harry was going to go after Voldemort in the first book; Harry said so himself. I doubt, however, that Dumbledore would have left Hogwarts so Harry could face Quirrell/Voldemort on his own; it seems that this part of Quirrell's plan worked effectively (ie to fool Dumbledore into leaving Hogwarts.)

Similarly, Dumbledore's reaction ("Harry's gone after him, hasn't he?") suggests, to me at least, that he was anticipating Harry to go after him but he must have been somewhat distressed at the thought of having Harry face Quirrell/Voldemort.

I don't entirely agree with your speculation that Dumbledore sent Fawkes and the Sorting Hat in CoS. Dumbledore explains that Harry must have, "Shown me real loyalty down in the Chamber. Nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you." Seeing as Dumbledore didn't know where the Chamber was (thus he wouldn't know where to send Fawkes) it seems likely that Harry, through some mystical connection (blood connection, perhaps?) had the ability to call Fawkes to him.

On a side note, a lot of people believe that Fawkes' previous owner was Godric Gryffindor. They cite Harry's ability to call Fawkes as further evidence of their Heir of Gryffindor theory.

Just some thoughts.

Well what I have been thinking about Dumbledore is not to be taken totally seriousally. Dumbledore has already read the books before they start. He wasn't worried about Harry going down to face Quirrel/Voldemort because he had already looked at the last chapter and said "Ahhh.. I see that I will save him in the nick of time. All is well for Harry." Auctally you'll find in a lot of stories there is at least one person who seems to have already read the book (or in the case of movies the script). Gandalf is such character in LOTR. So, who thinks I'm totally off my rocker??

Originally posted by cannonFan
So, who thinks I'm totally off my rocker??

Right here! *rasies hand*

yeah same here but i know how you feel. they just seem to save the others just in time and they never seem worried or upset that they wont make it.

Dumbledore seems to be very much the big picture kind of guy.
He knows alot of what is going on but not everything.

He has his fingures in alot of pies and is only just managing not to get his fingures burnt.

got a feeling Fudges going to throw a stink in the next book if it ever comes out.

Well with Gandalf the story is a little bit different. He's not sure about things in the beginning (searching for the Ring, believing Saruman). Gandalf seems to trust fate to a great deal, knowing that Valars are on his side:)

Image of Gandalf is influenced by Merlin (by function) Odin ( by image)to a great deal.
And lets face it Dumbledore is influenced by Gandalf.

yeah but they are both really cool. they both seem to prepare the people who must carry a great burden dont they

This discussion is very similar to an old thread in here (Could Harry have been prophecied?), so I'll go ahead and merge the two.

ok go ahead

I dont know if prophisiesed is the correct word, more like expected. But its not sure if he will win or lose when facing Voldemort...

I have seen this theory many times, and I think there is good evidence to support it. I'd like to know why Voldemort wanted Harry so badly. Also, to tie in another slightly related theory, if Lily was a Death Eater, he'd have no reason to kill her son. Also, we've seen every other kind of magic there is, so why not some prophetic magic? I really think this will be touched on by JKR in the highly anticipated((hurry the darn thing up already)) book 5.

well we do find out why voldie wanted to kill the potters in the next book. WHERE did the rumour about lily being a death eater come from? i have heard no evidence to convince me, is there any?

First time I've heard of it as well...

I've heard the rumor of Lily being a Death Eater too many times. It isn't true, as there is NO evidence.

I dont see it being possible, there would be too much suspision on Harry then, and it would of come up when the Deaths Head was sent up, they would of accussed Harry of following in his Mothers Footsteps, I for one dont beleive it...

^_^

I really don't see how it could be possible that Lily is a Death Eater...I mean, Voldemort KILLED her to get to a 1 year old boy.

exactly. i just heard that it was because voldie said she didnt have to die!! how silly is that

Extremely silly. Voldemort says you don't have to die, so you're a Death Eater

the things some people come up with. dont they have anything else to do

Well, it isn't that. I enjoy a good theory. However, I think they should've spent more time looking at the evidence, and realizing that NOTHING supports your theory.

definitely. a good theory can make you think 'hey, yeah that could be true' and you can think up evidence but this, pah :censored:

You need to understand that almost none of the theories have evidence. Only a few are even partly credible... People here fantasize about their heroes. Their fantasies are named theories...they aren't actual theories...

I have seen many theories with evidence, some of which contradict eachother. The DADA teacher is incredibly difficult to predice.

yeah i know that. its just interesting to see if you can find evidence for a dumb suggestion but the death eater thing is taking it too far

Yeah...I mean, there is no way that Lily is a Death Eater. They go to 'evidence' that is so off the wall, it isn't even funny.

It's like the DADA teacher thing, we know she's going to be a she.

Suddenly someone thinks that it's going to be Fleur, based on a single line that said that she's going to learn English in England.

One of the other is Winky...I didn't bother to read that thread...

Or maybe Figg...never let Logic get in the way of a good fantasy...

Maybe one of those are actually correct, the third one actually seems to work. But it doesn't matter, the theory is still wrong, even if it's correct... It needs evidence in order to be a good theory. Whether or not it's right, is of minor importance.

i mean, why would lily fight voldemort if she was a death eater. if voldie wanted to kill harry and she was a death eater then wouldnt she have just brought harry to voldie, instead of dying for harry?

It could be either Fleur of Figg, neither of which has much evidence against them. Sometimes you have to see who in the story has the least evidence against them. It could be one of those two, or a NEW character.

I can think of a hundred reasons why she would not...but none of them have evidence. And all are purely fictional. That's why I'm just going to keep quiet.

Nono, I want to hear your theories and opinions. Some evidence does not have to be told directly, but can be formulated from indirect findings, and opinions.

I'm not going to...I have some dignity you know. I'm not going to spout of some farfetched theory after I just told everyone that their theories didn't make sense...

Unless...I'm very very drunk...the question is...am I?

Yes, you told that everyone else's theories didn't make sense, so PROVIDE YOUR OWN.

i think we are getting a bit off track here people

Well honestly, I'd like to hear others theories, even if they are the worst theories in the world. It's a new idea, and a new concept.

i know. the only thing is that half of them dont make sense

The thing is that my theory doesn't make sense either...

well tell us and let us make up our own mind about it

It's still a new idea, and if it doesn't make sense, it gets people thinking about why it doesn't make sense. Anything that gets someone thinking about the book is a good theory.

ill agree with that

NO...I'll remain true to my principles. I shall not be tempted by the darkside!

You feen, STAY BACK!

GET AWAY FROM ME!


...I hate hypocrisy...

Your principals? This is where we are supposed to discuss the plot. So share your theories.

*Shakes head*

You can't make me do it!

Heh. I still think you should share your opinions.

I'll just stay with ruin other peoples fantasies by giving good arguments...it's what I do best.

Hey, if you can give good arguments, it can start decent debates, like the one we kind of had, but about the book.

I can't give a good argument about this, because it's very obvious that Lily isn't a deatheater. When I make up arguments, I need a good beginning, one that makes sense

I see your point there. And it is pretty obvious that Lily is not a death eater. I don't know what the person who thought of that was smoking.

We were told that we would get something to know about Lily... Apparently, a big part of society thinks that "something" means "Dark Secrets"

I don't get how they turn "something" into "dark secrets". I guess it's because they both have only one t. Just a theory, of course.

When someone tells you

"You want to know something about that girl over there?"

It's mostly gossip...not of the good kind.

Anyway, most people crave betrayels and forbidden love, part of human nature.

lol thats good

I think it's just that people want to see a sort of soap opera drama added to the books. I'd rather avoid that myself.

No matter how incredible low it is...it sells...

I guess so. However, I don't think JKR will need to do that. Harry Potter already sells.

Originally posted by Tom Marvolo Riddle
I think it's just that people want to see a sort of soap opera drama added to the books. I'd rather avoid that myself.

yeah we should keep some things out of the gutter

I know, I just hope she doesn't go that way.

That way is greasy, and paved with dead Australian Soap writers...

LOL

Heh. I think that the books would lose a lot of their....greatness if she went there.

But she did say that Harry was beginning to enter puberty...not a good sign.

i dont think that she would go very far down THAT road though, especially if they are, as every one is clamouring about, CHILDRENS books

Yes, about that, would a childrens book have people dying? There are a whole bunch of stuff that have nothing to do with bunnies, or little boys and their dogs chasing a ball...

gee i would hate to read a childrens book written by you. dont you know that death is dealt with in childrens books and everything else these days. preparing them you see

...That was my point...

My point was that violence IS acceptable...yet girly mushi stuff isn't...WHY?

Why is it perfectly acceptable to see a person get shot, and yet not acceptable for hero to fall in love.

Do you watch anime? The Japanese handle these things much better.

yeah i agree

Hey, just wanted to post my idea on the whole prophecy thing. I've got a detailed thing written out about what I think of the prophecy but it's too long to bother posting. If you're interested in it, yea_ok_whateva@hotmail.com is my email address, and I'll be happy to talk to you, or show you ;)

Anyway, long story short ... it's obvious that there's some sort of prophecy thing with Harry going on here. The whole thing with the centaurs in book one points to it. With Dumbledore knowing this prophecy, and the importance of Harry to the future of the wizarding world, he would have made preparations. From what I can tell, it looks like he warned the Potters straight away and hid them from Voldemort under the fidelius charm (broken when Pettigrew betrayed Lily and James). Voldemort told Lily to simply get out of the way when he wanted to kill Harry, rather than just killing her AND Harry. This suggests that it wasn't really Lily or James that Voldemort wanted to get to, but Harry. Lily and James would have also made preparations to ensure Harry's survival to fulfil this important prophecy, such as leaving the invisibility cloak for added protection, saving up money so that they had plenty of wizard gold to leave them, and making sure that the people who inherited Harry would be muggles, where it would be harder for deatheaters to find Harry. Dumbledore, after Harry's parents death, seems to have made other arrangements such as providing another secret keeper for Harry (Arrabella Figg).

Dumbledore has definitely seen far into the future. He knew to come back from London, and to send Fawkes and the Sorting Hat to aid Harry in his first (post-infant) encounter with Voldemort. I have a feeling that he knows he has to let the events happening each year at Hogwarts unravel themselves, so that Harry can fulfill his destiny, with a little bit of a helping hand here and there.

Lemme know what you think!

I hope JKR doesn't turn this into a soap opera. Love, and relationships is good, but things like Lily being alive, and serving Voldemort when nobody knew it, and Harry's mother stabbing him in the back...that would be a bit too much.

Ugh, I hate prophecies.

Why is it that almost every book that involves magic, and dragons need to have one?

Well, this book doesn't necessarily have to have one. This is just something somebody thought of as an explanation for why Voldemort would want to kill Harry, who was a baby at the time.

Prophecies are crappy.

Don't you hate them?

They tell you that something is going to happen, whether good or bad. And you can't change it, no matter what. You might run, than you learn that running is part of the prophecy, you learn that your doubts and anything you do is also part of it. There is no escaping.

...I like to have a choice in the matter, I hate a fixed future...

I hate prophecies in a story. It fixes the event, and makes it un-interesting. Foreshadowing is good, though, and JKR does a lot of non-obvious foreshadowing.

Yeah...

Let's just pray that JK isn't going to take the obvious way and start a prophecy.

She could prophesize Voldemort winning, and let Harry succeed against all odds. I suppose that would make good reading.

I'd rather leave the prophecies out. Her foreshadowing is very good, and never obvious. An obvious thing like a prophecy, whether it be right or not, would ruin it.

Yeah, everything would be much better without prophecy.

They are the tools of bad writers...

Prophecies are like cheap substitutions for actual foreshadowing. I doubt JKR will need to use those.

Let us pray

Ah, I don't think praying will be required. I have full confidence in JKR...until she screws something up.

i think that if there was a prophecy she would have made it more obvious in the previous books.

gillyweed, james inherited the money, he didnt save it and i dont think that they arranged for muggles to take harry. they had sirius as his godfather remember

Unless it is a secret phophcey? Only known to those with the power to affect the outcome, IE Voldemort and Dumbledore?

hmmm yeah but that doesnt seem very JK does it

Well, actully it does. Imagine knowing what will happen to Harry for the rest of his life. You dont want that told too early, I would wait untill we learn a little bit more...

yeah ok
we'll postpone the argument ok

Agreed...

^_^

did you get in trouble for our conversation with hederic that was 'off topic'???

Where did we have that? I got in trouble in our Harry and Draco thread...

I got into trouble...I don't see why they have to be so mean about it...it made me cry!

I think that there is a big difference between foreshadowing and prophesy. And on that note, JKR is a really good foreshadower (is that even a word?) Whereas, she is not looking to prophesi anything.

Just my opionion...

I don't think JKR will do a prophecy. If she did, I think it would have come a bit earlier in the series. I, myself, am glad it hasn't come at all.

But a Prophecy earlier in the series would of answered far too many questions. It needs to come out in Book six and have Harry wonder about whether every thing he does is Ordained or whether he has free will and whether he can change his destiny...

Nah, I think a prophecy would make it a bit too messy. Dumbledore has already assured him that it is our choices that decide where we go, not our 'destiny' or 'skills'

But we have already seen cases where Prophecy has been used in JKR that is correct...

Ah, I really don't think there will be anymore prophecies. I think they'll give up Trelawney's class, and nobody else seems too keen on predicting death and distruction.

They can't just throw in a prophecy at the end of the story!

"By the way Harry, did I mention that you were the prophesized (I misspelled that didn't I?) savier of wizardkind?"

"What? NO!"

"Well...you are."

As much as I'm humbled by your story telling abilities Hedric, I didnt mean like that, Try something like this:

"You could never know how special you are Harry" Said Dumbledore looking down at Harry, placing his hand on the boys shoulder. "Seven thousand years ago, there was a Wizard Prophet plauged by visions of today, and you know what he saw?" Harry looked to his feet not knowing what to say. "There were two possible paths he predicted. Down one lay the utter ruination of everything we hold dear, all placed at the feet of one man. Hogwart's and all other schools of Wizadry destroyed, Muggles everywhere cast into slavery, under the yoke of tyranny. The other, the one that would be so hard to bring about, said a boy would rise like from a broken life and stand agasint all the darkness that would threaten us. We didnt know what the trials you would face were but we, countless others you will never meet for they are long dead, made sure you would be here, we protected you at the Dudleys, we looked on your Parents were killed knowing it was the only way".

Anyway, see something like that. I mean I'm a lousey story teller, I'm sure that JKR can come up with something that makes way more sense and do so in a way that will have people angry and sad but relieved things turned out. You get the idea, a prophecy doesnt have to say exactly what will happen...

Yeah but still, Dumbledore couldn't have been the ONLY person to know about it. If nothing, there should at least have been rumours. But the thing is that there was nothing, and DD failed to mention anything.

Originally posted by gillyweed_sensation
Anyway, long story short ... it's obvious that there's some sort of prophecy thing with Harry going on here. The whole thing with the centaurs in book one points to it. With Dumbledore knowing this prophecy, and the importance of Harry to the future of the wizarding world, he would have made preparations. From what I can tell, it looks like he warned the Potters straight away and hid them from Voldemort under the fidelius charm (broken when Pettigrew betrayed Lily and James). Voldemort told Lily to simply get out of the way when he wanted to kill Harry, rather than just killing her AND Harry. This suggests that it wasn't really Lily or James that Voldemort wanted to get to, but Harry. Lily and James would have also made preparations to ensure Harry's survival to fulfil this important prophecy, such as leaving the invisibility cloak for added protection, saving up money so that they had plenty of wizard gold to leave them, and making sure that the people who inherited Harry would be muggles, where it would be harder for deatheaters to find Harry. Dumbledore, after Harry's parents death, seems to have made other arrangements such as providing another secret keeper for Harry (Arrabella Figg).

Dumbledore has definitely seen far into the future. He knew to come back from London, and to send Fawkes and the Sorting Hat to aid Harry in his first (post-infant) encounter with Voldemort. I have a feeling that he knows he has to let the events happening each year at Hogwarts unravel themselves, so that Harry can fulfill his destiny, with a little bit of a helping hand here and there.

Lemme know what you think!

Welcome to CoS forums, gillyweed_sensation!

I have to say that I like your addition to the theory - the bit about how Lily and James helped in the preparation for Harry's training by leaving him certain particulars.

As mentioned in the very first post, I, too, have often wondered about the importance of making characters such as Trelawney and the centaurs prominent in some sense. And, alas, this was the best way I could make sense of it (that is, until the 5th book comes out.)

And, well, I refuse to believe that the only time we learn of DD's history with Grindelwald is in book 1 when Harry is reading DD's stats off of the back of the Chocolate Frog Wizarding Card. Again, JK has that knack of situating characters that, at first, seem minute, but later become a very huge deal indeed. Grindelwald seems like one of those characters, and he's connected early on to DD (and, while a very minute way, to Harry in that Harry is the one to read the card.) And, with that, perhaps the "old crowd" shouldn't only be referenced to the crowd that was at the forefront of defeating Voldemort...perhaps they were around during the time of Grindelwald as well....

Hmmm.

Originally posted by Hederic
Yeah but still, Dumbledore couldn't have been the ONLY person to know about it. If nothing, there should at least have been rumours. But the thing is that there was nothing, and DD failed to mention anything.

So far, and whose to say there would be rumors if it was a secret order type of prophecy. Like maybe.. oh I dunno the Order of the Phoniex perhaps who are guarding Harry so he can fufill his destiny...

Though you could somehow make sense out of the mystery with this theory. I still don't buy it. Maybe I'm just a romantic person. But I feel that people like Dumbledore, James, and Lily aren't motivated by destiny. Their motives should be clear and pure. Not because some idiot somewhere on a mountain predicted the doom of mankind.

Somehow having a prophecy would make it all seem phony. Lily didn't give her life for Harry, but for the mutterings to a madman. Dumbledore planned all this, he's the mastermind behind everything. He couldn't even bother to save the lives of his parents...That sort of thing.

I believe it's a string of coincidental random happenings that causes Harry to be a hero. Like the early death of his parents, that causes him to learn the harshness of reality. The meeting between the dreamteam, that tells him of the rewards of life...and so on and so forth. This might be destiny, this might be him being very very lucky. But it's not a prophecy.

Originally posted by lanifiel
So far, and whose to say there would be rumors if it was a secret order type of prophecy. Like maybe.. oh I dunno the Order of the Phoniex perhaps who are guarding Harry so he can fufill his destiny...

Ah yes. My thoughts exactly. And lanifiel - I wouldn't put down your storytelling skills so quickly. That was a very nice rendition of what could come. ;D

Thanks pasalita ^_^

I like the prophecy theory. However, it might be different than people here have imagined so far. If it's based on the centaurs, and they are using astrology, they will probably get the big picture; strife, possible war, danger, muggle interference etc. but not necessarily the details, like Harry is the one to defeat Voldemort. Of course, once he has defeated Voldy, then the centaurs will watch him closely, and look at his horoscope and see what things affect him and which do not. Astrology paints a broad picture, you can clearly see what influences are at play, but deciding which of many possibilities will play out is what makes the predictive side of it so difficult.

So they could see a dark time (Voldemort) suddenly interrupted (by Harry's "defeat" of him) and a period of peace (while Harry grows up and Voldy "recovers") and then possibility of more strife and war and possible disaster and enslavement or redemption. But what each individual will do, that's where the choices comes in, and believe me, it's that way in astrology, too. You cannot change your chart or the transits coming, but you can change how you choose to react to them and deal with it. You can sit and just take it or be more pro-active and choose how to meet what comes.

Originally posted by Sinistra
I like the prophecy theory. However, it might be different than people here have imagined so far. If it's based on the centaurs, and they are using astrology, they will probably get the big picture; strife, possible war, danger, muggle interference etc. but not necessarily the details, like Harry is the one to defeat Voldemort. Of course, once he has defeated Voldy, then the centaurs will watch him closely, and look at his horoscope and see what things affect him and which do not. Astrology paints a broad picture, you can clearly see what influences are at play, but deciding which of many possibilities will play out is what makes the predictive side of it so difficult.

So they could see a dark time (Voldemort) suddenly interrupted (by Harry's "defeat" of him) and a period of peace (while Harry grows up and Voldy "recovers") and then possibility of more strife and war and possible disaster and enslavement or redemption. But what each individual will do, that's where the choices comes in, and believe me, it's that way in astrology, too. You cannot change your chart or the transits coming, but you can change how you choose to react to them and deal with it. You can sit and just take it or be more pro-active and choose how to meet what comes.

I vibe with you as always, Sinistra. By saying what you said, you've brought even me back to what I had originally posted in this thread which is this:

Of course, prophecies can never be regarded as "truth," per say, but they are difficult to ignore once a course of events follow a particular predicted path; and, when knowing of a prophecy, a devout believer can make things happen to ensure it is either defeated or followed through.

Thus, perhaps Grindelwald, a great Dark wizard, had knowledge of a particular prophecy, one that foretold of the end of the threat of the Dark Arts, i.e. the threat of a Dark Lord. Being a Dark wizard that felt it his destiny/duty to aid in the rise of the Dark Arts, he felt that he must equip the one he believed had the potential to become the greatest Dark Sorcerer in wizarding history...Tom Riddle.

I think the idea hit me when thinking about how many other CoS members were relating the HP story and much of its details to Greek Mythology. And, well, a huge part of Greek Mythology has to do with soothsayers and fulfillment/non-fulfillment of prophecies.

But, the theory/hypothesis had to begin somewhere, and it had to begin before the time of Harry, before the rise of Voldemort. And, there is but one wizard mentioned in passing that had dealt with the Dark Arts and was powerful at about the same time Tom Riddle began his schooling: Grindelwald.

And, again, the idea of the thread is to debate what could be with regards to the original post, not actually believe that it is. In a sense, it is the beginnings and proliferation of a rumor. It isn't truth. It's rationalization. What's more, it's how I rationalized the story. But CLEARLY I can be wrong. I'm not JK.

Originally posted by pasalita
I'm not JK. \

Your not? Well I know I'm not, so who else does that leave?!?

^_^

I agree with what you said pasalita, it does make sense, but its one of those things we will have to wait and see...

Originally posted by Sinistra
I like the prophecy theory. However, it might be different than people here have imagined so far. If it's based on the centaurs, and they are using astrology, they will probably get the big picture; strife, possible war, danger, muggle interference etc. but not necessarily the details, like Harry is the one to defeat Voldemort. Of course, once he has defeated Voldy, then the centaurs will watch him closely, and look at his horoscope and see what things affect him and which do not. Astrology paints a broad picture, you can clearly see what influences are at play, but deciding which of many possibilities will play out is what makes the predictive side of it so difficult.

So they could see a dark time (Voldemort) suddenly interrupted (by Harry's "defeat" of him) and a period of peace (while Harry grows up and Voldy "recovers") and then possibility of more strife and war and possible disaster and enslavement or redemption. But what each individual will do, that's where the choices comes in, and believe me, it's that way in astrology, too. You cannot change your chart or the transits coming, but you can change how you choose to react to them and deal with it. You can sit and just take it or be more pro-active and choose how to meet what comes.

wow that is so how i could imagine it.it makes sense and it fits in with what DD talks about all the time

I still don't like the prophecy idea. JKR would have to make it kind of obvious, and I don't want that there. Using a prophecy that isn't told directly, like the Centaurs did in book 1, would be ok, because it wouldn't be that obvious.

Why is it that people just ignore all that does not fit in their world?

No connection, just wondering.

Some people dont want to expand their worlds Hedric. this isnt going to turn into philosophy class though...

no i dont think people are up to it. i agree with tom about the non obvious prophecy

Maybe it is possible that someone else told voldy about his heirship..who knows..and hmm..very great theory....but they say that Lily did not know about her sacrifice...but she was good atchamrs so who knows..maybe that is why Jk has mentioned it a lot...

yeah well we do find out alot more about lily in book 5

Hey, it's a great theory, I never thought about that, really. I have another one, which might not be as logical, but it's possible. I was thinking that the profecy had been made, in reality, by Professor Trelawney. We know that she made two real profecies. We know the second one, but we don't know the first one. Perhaps she had prophecised that Harry would someday end with Voldemort's power. Now, Voldemort knew about this through his spy Pettigrew and tried to kill Harry (that would explain it). However he couldn't kill him and so, the prophecy would be true. But this only my opinion. Your theory is great!

http://[IMG]http://www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou/topbanner/cat.gifhttp://www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou/topbanner/po.gif (http://www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou )http://www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou/hp/cobanner.gif (http://www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou )[URL=http://www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou ]http://www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou/hp/hubanner.gif

actually that is a theory and i dunno if it has been discussed in this thread but it has somewhere

Okay...it's been awhile since I responded. I'm going to interject my theory again. However, it isn't based on anything really. More my imagination than any thing contained within the existing stories. It basically satisfies my needs. I like it.


My "theory" starts with siamese twins that lived hundreds of years ago, Illiam and Illian. They shared everything but a neck and head. The boys were poor (as their father had left the day of their birth because of their freakishness). Their mother, a kind and gentle person, raised them the best she could. Sadly, when the boys were in their early teens, she passed away.

Now the boys tried several things to support themselves. The joined a carnival. They drew loads of people with their entertaining routines of juggling, comedy,etc. However, the boys soon realised that everyone was laughing at them instead of with them. So they returned to tehir hometown. Unfortunately, no one would hire them for fear of their oddity driving customers away. Fortunately, the editor of the local magazine found them a job where they wouldn't be exposed to the public...writing.

Together the boys, who ALWAYS agreed about everything, became making predicitions about weather and crop reports, etc. They became famous for their predicitions...not for being right, but for always being wrong. So wrong they were that when they predicted rain, everyone planned picnics and outdoor activities because they knew it would be a beautiful day. When they predicted a bad crop season, all the farmers celebrated with a party as they knew it would be a banner year.

Strangely, this knack for being inaccurate didn't faze the boys. They were just happy to making a modest income to support themselves and feel as if they belong in society.

Then one day, the boys starting projecting far out into the future. Several hundred year into the future. They predicted it would be dark times for the wizarding world. An evil Lord would be seeking complete control. There would be a lad, a child (The Boy Who Lived), who would somehow manage to stop the Dark Lord's uprising sending him into exile for a number of years. The Dark Lord would return, when the lad was older and they would duel again. (The actual prophecy was much longer) BUT...as they neared the conclusion of their prophecy, something strange, something that had never happened before in their lives...happened.

As my story goes, Dumbledore, who was in his study reasearching ways to stop Voldemort, came across this prediction in a rather old and obscure text. Just as concluded reading, McGonagall broke into his office to inform him that the Potters were dead, but their boy, Harry, managed to escape Voldemort's attack and that Voldemort has disappeared. Dumbledore, an admitted skeptic of prophecies, could not ignore what was staring him so blindly in the face. He knew that Illiam and Illian may have had something.

Throughout Harry's years at Hogwarts, Dumbledore used the prophecy as a guide. With each passing event, Dumbledore's belief in the prophecy grew stronger. This is why he knows the circumstances in what will happen, but not the details. This is how he knows to send Fawkes and the Sorting Hat to Harry in COS.

Unfortunately, what he doesn't know is the final outcome. You see as Illiam and Illian drew close to the end of their prophecy, something that had never happened before...well...happened...they disagreed. You see, Illiam predicted that the Dark Lord would succeed, kill the boy who was now almost a man, "And our world would live in darkness for a thousand years or more..." Illian, on the other hand, predicted that the Boy, now almost a Man, would prevail, kill the Dark Lord, imprison all his supporters, "And our world would live in peace for a thousand years or more..."

Sadly, the boys never had an opportunity to reconcile their difference of opinions. You see, their single heart, saddened by this first disagreement, gave out the very night they write their seperate conclusions. They were found dead the very next morning.

Now...once Dumbledore discovered this theory, he convinced the Ministry (in complete secrecy of course). It was discreetly ordered that all books containing any mentioning of the prophecy were to have it removed. Since it was an old, rather obscure prophecy, there weren't many books. However, for the very same reason...some of the books escaped unscathed.

Voldemort, through which means I have yet worked out the details, came across such a book. However, this book contained just Illiam's prophecy of the Dark Lord reign for a thousand years or more. This is why Voldemort does not seem to disturbed that he has yet killed Harry since he think it is destiny and only a matter of time. He figured out through the text that this Boy was the Potter's son and that is why he wanted to kill him as a child. It would also be why he wanted to kill James so that no more Potter sons could be born...shall we say a CYA (cover your as.) move.

Voldemort doesn't realize that Illian's opposite prophecy exists...which is or will be Voldemort's weakness. As long as he is secure in his belief that he will eventually prevail, he leaves open the door for his own destruction.

Dumbledore, after the events in the cemetery, is extremely worried now since he realizes that the prophicies will soon "collide" and only one of them can come true. Dumbledore, aside from a few higher-ups in the Ministry, like Fudge, are the only ones who know of the prophies and its conflicting endings.

Except, may I interject, maybe Hermione. This could be why she is so protective of Harry and not because she is his sister as others have indicated in other threads. Maybe she came across the prophecy some how. Dumbledore has asked her to keep it quiet, explaining to her only what she needs to know about it. As one of Harry's dearest friends, she has agreed with Dumbledore's wishes, but is deeply protective of Harry.

Maybe my imagination has runneth over. Maybe I need to stop now before I go insane. Maybe I need...to go.

"That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it!!!!!"

dtpoet

that is a really interesting prophecy. is it true about illian and illiam? ordid you make it up?

this is the first time i read this thread, anyway, very good theory!!!

whose theory expelliarmus? :D

Before I start off I haven't read the entire thing so if this has been told before I'm sorry :D

Originally posted by Kneazle
Sorry, I got the dates slightly confused. He'd actually have graduted in '45. In CoS (1992-3) we're taken back 50 years to Tom's fifth year in Hogwarts. That would be 1942-3. He'd graduate two years later (1944-5). I forgot that he was in his fifth year for a moment-- being sixteen I thought he'd' graduate the next year. :shrug: So that is how I got '44. But it is '45. :)

Actually I think he did graduated in 1944

Now the reason:

We already know that when the Chamber of Secrets was first open happend 50 years before Harry's 2nd year and 450 years after Nearless Headless Nick died (1492)

The diary was fifty years old
Harry saw at once that it was a diary, and the faded year on the cover told him it was fifty years old
Chamber of Secret, bloomsbury, hardback, The Very Secret Diary, page 172-173

Tom Riddle said through the diary:
In my fifth year, the Chamber was opend and the monster attacked several students,
Chamber of Secret, bloomsbury, hardback, The Very Secret Diary, page 180-181

So everyone is already assuming Tom's fifth year is 1942 - 1943 (e.g Kneazle assumed this)

Now comes the big however:

I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in it's pages
Chamber of Secret, bloomsbury, hardback, The Heir of Slytherin, page 230

So he was 16, when he put his memories in the diary in 1942, the chamber was opened in his fifth year also in 1942. If he's sixteen in 1942 that would mean that he starts his sixth year in 1942.

Thus Riddle's fifth year was 41-42 not 42-43, so he graduated in 1944...

A nice argument using logic, well said! :D

Originally posted by lanifiel
A nice argument using logic, well said! :D

Thanks :)

Although it has nothing to do with this discussion ;)

hey that doesnt matter in the least, especially when some of all get together (eh lanni) lol

You-Know-Who: good work. I assumed (well, after my first notion) that when the diary takes Harry back to June 13th, it's already the next year (meaning that Tom started his fifth year in September '42, and his memory takes place at the end of that school year, in summer '43). . . but that makes sense.

Unless we bring in te option of students getting skipped ahead grades?

Yeah we didnt think of that.

Great theory!! The only problem I can see with it is it seems a little too Star Wars-y/Matrix-y. You know, Anakin is the Chosen One, Neo is The One, and now Harry is too? I don't think JK will do something like that.

Hmmm...this theory sounds very good...sounds like something that could be true

I agree that it is a good theory and the prophecy thing has just started to make sense to me. If Dumbledore knew the prophecy then that would explain why he guides Harry through a lot of things at school and always seems to know what is going on around Harry.

DD does always seem to know whats going on, but not with everything.

Jessicacarstens, please don't just *bump* a topic, only post in a thread if you have something to add to it.

Personally, a prophecy seems to be in so many stories of this type that JK will try and steer clear of such things.

I guess I agree with you Picko. It is always the same story line - quiet, unassuming, generally downtrodden, finds out about some great destiny or past, doesnt think he can do it then does it anyway.

Originally posted by mystically_mad (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=242235#post242235))
DD does always seem to know whats going on, but not with everything.



I hope that in this next book that exact thought..doesnt come around to smack us in the face. I adore DD...but he is human afterall..and at this point don't really know if he can see the future...or if he's just that good of a wizard to know what to look for.

I think that DD is going to fall from his pedistal in Book 5...at least in harry's mind. I just hope that he doesnt fall far, and that Harry still wants/asks/rund to him for assistance.
:)

Originally posted by Picko (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=379960#post379960))
Jessicacarstens, please don't just *bump* a topic, only post in a thread if you have something to add to it.

Personally, a prophecy seems to be in so many stories of this type that JK will try and steer clear of such things.


Sorry, I've seen other people do it when an old thread is relevant to a topic being discussed in a new thread in addition to linking so I thought I was helping.

I think Pasalita made a great opening argument in this thread and I thought the person who started the new thread would have their questions answered by it.

Oh well :(


BTW I like the modified version of the thoery where the "prophesy" is actually Trelawney's first prediction. I think it makes a lot of sense.

Wow dtpoet!
Are you JKRowling?
that was brilliant
Bye

My personal opinion is that I hate the idea of a prophecy. Honestly. I just don't like the idea that everything is planned out, and that it is Harry's destiny. I want him to act in the present, what he does etc. However, my opinion on Trelawney's first prediction, is that she predicted the downfall of Voldemort.

Cue dramatic music.

'The Dark Lord grows more and more powerful. Tonight though, at midnight, he will fall. He will fall from his natural enemy. His heirs enemy. The enemy. He will fall tonight at midnight. By the child of light.'

'Sybll???'

'So sorry, dozed off. What's up?'

:lol::lol::lol:

Prophecy/Fate is determined by those willing to change it. Recommended reading:

Mercedes Lackey - Winds of Fate, Winds of Change, Winds of Fury (actually recommend the entire Valdamar Series)

edit: no such thing as destiny, you are the result of the choices you make :end edit

This thread has been dormant for a long time.

Professor Generation X's theory is the best one I've heard. Maybe it was you, to whom JKR referred when she said 'some had skirted the key to all the books'

I myself can see places where this theory might change after having read OotP, but I'm curious to what Professor X thinks.

Do you mean Pasalita tree guardian?

Yes. Sorry I was refering to the CoS ranking rather than the user name.
:)