Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom part five [Archive] - Page 2

DumbledoreTheWise

September 6th, 2003, 4:04 am

[[And Polaris15, Ginny was not "chucked out of the first four books." She was defnitly still there.]]

Exactly. She's just "there" but she was not developed. IMO, that is the same thing as being "chucked out" as a background character. In literature, there are two types of characters: round and flat. Ginny is definitely a flat character; she is a caricature; she doesn't show gradual change or development. Her characterization in OotP appears too contrived. Instead of building Ginny up like Neville, Ginny's new characteristics seemed to appear out of nowhere.

I do not agree that Ginny is a flat character. We learned minor things about her over the first four books, but either way you argue , she is no longer a flat character. As for Ginny's characteristics being out of nowhere, I completely disagree. We had, until book 5, recieved very small hints about her character from Ron, Fred, George, and Hermione. I may point out that a large majority of fans predicted that what came to be in OotP were Ginny's strongest attributes. I don't believe I'm mistaken in saying that many thought that was what she was truly like. Many of them were H/G shippers, but that's not the point. Personally, that's exactly how I pictured her, and I *DO NOT* see her attributes in Book 5 as "new" but rather "old," I see it as Ginny coming out of her shell in front of Harry.So again, not a new personality, but confidence in her true one you might say.

[[Like JK has proven before with Sirius, Lupin, and countless others, absence in a certain part of Harry's life means nothing when we talk about potential importance.]]
I agree, but can you give me more examples of the "countless others?" The two examples you've provided don't prove your point because both Sirius and Lupin had more interaction with Harry than Ginny did.
I was referring to the fact that JKR introduces us by name or nby brief meeting to certain characters and then develops them later. A few examples mioght include Luna Lovegood, Susan Bones, Mundungus Fletcher, Arabella Figg, the Prewetts, the McKinnons, Dedalus Diggle, Cornelius Fudge, (and there are several who believe that Mark Evans might be the next name dropped to mean something.) let's not forget, that Sirius Black too was once just a name, in Book 1 with the flying motorcycle. My point is simply that JK seems to frequently introduce us to someone and develop them later, when it is most relevant to the story.

[[All indications from our beloved Miss Rowling are that we will learn more about Ginny.]]

About time.
Agreed. :)

[[Has it occured to you there might be an appropriate time for these things to come into full view?]]

It depends on your definition of "appropriate", because it would've been appropriate for JKR to develope Ginny's character after CoS. It would've been appropriate to give Ginny a bigger role in PoA and GoF. It could've been appropriate to show some interaction between Ginny and the trio prior to OotP; however, it is *not* appropriate to squish everything into the two last books. .

Why would it be appropriate to develop her then? How would she fit into the storyline??? I guess my opinion here is based around the fact that I believe the "appropriate" time for Ginny's true colors to shine through will be Book 6, when Harry is down and desperate, and even Ron and Hermione can't help him. He has already shone signs of drifting from them, feeling seperated. I do not believe that it was coincidence that in the "Possession" scene and in the Library scene Harry opened up to Ginny. I'm not saying they are best friends right now, but I think this will be important in later books, the fact that Harry has a person outside of the trio who he can and has talked to, and to some extent, can identify with his particular situation better than Hermione. So I don't believe it will be "squashed" into two books. We got to know Ginny fairly well in Book 5, and 6 and 7 makes three books. How hard did we all cry when Sirius died? He was only around for three books, developed for three solid books. Why is Ginny not privvy to the same importance developing int he same period of time? JKR is an excellent writer, she planned development specifically for when it fits with the series. She pulled Rita Skeeter from Book 1's Leaky Cauldron scene because developing that aspect of Harry's life didn't fit. Also, I think we can all agree from Harry's experience with Cho that he needed some time to mature (in between beating Voldemort at his own game every thirty seconds) before he could get into a truly meaningful relationship. I think that with the revealing of the prophecy, a meaningful relationship is something Harry is looking for, he simself said he was over the "Cho" phase, of crushing on someone for their good looks and superficial interests.

[[ Has it occured to you that what may be more telling is that Harry has known Hermione pretty well for five years and STILL isn't interested in her???]]

Has it ever occurred to you that Harry *knew* about Ginny's crush for five long years but never sought to return those feelings; not even when he was *desperate* for a date for the Yule Ball?

Oh sure Harry knew about Ginny's crush. JKR has even said it is one of his faults to not notice that she is "languishing in love" for four years. No, he didn't seek to return those feelings, but he knew Ginny then as the Ginny who had a shell around her in his presence. It would have been difficult for him to seek to return the feelings, even if he hadn't been hooked on Cho, when she could hardly talk to him without turning beet red. I wouldn't say Harry was desperate per se, he could have gone with almost any girl, several even asked him, he turned them down because he wanted to go out with Cho. he only considered other girls when he got turned down. An notice this, Ginny still went with Neville when she could have gone with Harry. She kept her promise to Neville, when she could have gone with her longtime crush. That says a lot about her character to me.

[[I'm not downplaying Hermy's importance, she's very important. But just because she has been the central female doesn't mean she will end up with the Boy Who Lived.]]

I'm not basing my argument on their roles, but on their character. I think it is extremely important that Hermione wasn't like Ginny. Hermione *didn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived. Hermione *couldn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived. Hermione *wouldn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived, and Hermione will *never* have a crush on The Boy Who Lived.
However, Hermione *could* love Harry. Hermione *does* love Harry. If Hermione ends up with Harry, it is because she loves *Harry*, just Harry.

I'm glad you're not basing it on roles, because many try to. My point was that Hermione and Harry know each other pretty well, he and Ron know her personality better than anyone else. And he has showed no jealousy in her Krum experience, and she no jealous interest in the Cho fiasco. They have repeatedly denied they are together, either being reduced to fits of giggles or becoming very confused when people even suggest it.
I see your pont about her never loving Harry, and I beleive it works the other way. it would be perfectly logical for Hermione to fall in love with Harry, the hero, her best friend, the incredibly great guy almost all the girls would love to have (though most of them not for sincere reasons.) It would be logical for her to fall for Harry, the sensitive, sometimes quiet one. it would make sense, it wouldn't be against her natural impulses, he's a great guy. But instead she falls for Ron, her other best friend, who she bickers with, who she disagrees with, who is a marvellous guy in and of himself, but he is not a Harry. I see it as perfectly fitting for Hermione to fall in love with Ron Weasley, the loyal sidekick, the one who is hot-tempered and sometimes hot headed ,but undeniably compassionate and smart, though not in her league talent wise. It;'s ironic, it may even be crazy or illogical in her mind, but its there. Now thats a great story.

But I just want to say that I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post, as well as Mad I's, both were well written an presented civilly. I actually considered my own past post to be kind of harsh, I wrote that after a particularly yucky day, and frankly, if I was someone else, I might have flamed me. LOL. ;) So yeah, thanks. :clap:

evaluna

September 6th, 2003, 4:12 am

Nia, noddwyd, Flying Phoenix, haycheng, Earendil, Ecthelion, Tree Guardian, Buckbeak, Grace Granger, BlackKnight86, Mad-I and last but never least, Perdita and Sirius ;) [so glad to see you elder statemen here, along w/Earendil, Ecthelion, & FP]: GREAT posts, all!!! Hope I covered the span. And BB re: pic, I do love it so -- it’s quite flattering! Quite nearly as nice as Mad Eye’s new sig…wherever he’s got to lately…BTW Ecthelion can I PM you for one of those cool badges?

For those who are new to the thread [and just to restate]: Why I ship H/Hr

Re: ship, IMO there have been many hints in canon, admirably presented by Harmony shipmates, that could indicate Hermione’s developing feelings toward Harry. We’ll no doubt be laying many of those out once again in future, so I’ll skip that for now. Given Harry’s increasing amount of ‘screen time’ in OoP with Hermione in critical situations where they are saving one another in some form, and given Harry’s increasing amount of thoughts on Hermione, both conscious and unconscious, of course I must go with H/Hr. If as I believe, Harry and Hermione have or are coming to love one another’s souls, moreover with a deep and abiding love on many levels, then for what more could I hope? Especially as I believe deep and abiding love to be critical to the septology ;) and the ultimate outcome of good [love/or, Infinite Light] over evil [fear and hatred, or despair/or, Darkness].

To wit, let me reference Nia, who has taken the words right out of my mouth [heart ;)], and BTW beautiful post, Nia and did you ever get my PM from last week? :)

Nia
I believe that Harry and Hermione's relationship transcends banal "chemistry" and simple physical attraction to become spiritual. That is something we definitely do not see a lot of in today's literature. Both are deeply complicated individuals with very "old" souls. It is this spiritual element that is so attractive to me and I truly believe it is in keeping with the overriding theme of the septology.

As with everyone on this thread, my shipping views are firmly grounded in my views on love. I believe love is more than seeing someone is cute and capable, Those superficial attributes only appeal to to the eyes. Physical beauty cannot reach a soul--only another soul can do that. I believe Harry and Hermione are soul mates--that their respective oddities make them see things from a similar perspective. As for the romance between these two, I feel it is only a matter of realization, mostly on Harry 's part, before they become a couple.

Nia, you are so right. Soul is what gives depth to the physical, whilst lack of soul renders a beautiful palette leaden and flat. As a true love touches the soul, love lends depth to the soul and thus beauty to the palette. The spiritual element is definitely what draws us, and, as you say, IMO it is also what draws Harry and Hermione to one another, or rather, it is what draws their souls, one to the other.
And more from Nia…

Love, Austen asserts through her wonderful stories, must be based in mutual respect and a thorough knowledge of each other. She emphasizes in Pride and Prejudice, and Emma as well as in Sense and Sensibility, that passion can blind us to reality and that infatuation is a deception. Love which develops slowly and through extended close association is the most enduring. In Austen’s world there is a definite distinction made between attraction and love. Attraction may be immediate and quite intense, but honest love takes time. When Austen’s couples do come together, there is an almost spiritual bond and readers are left with the belief in the rightness of the match. I don’t see how anyone could be as big a fan of Austen as JKR and not agree with these romantic ideologies since they are the basis of her books. I’d like to reemphasize the point about Austen’s principal couples holding a mutual respect and regard for each other and having the same value system.

Hermione refuses to see Ron’s point of view about the house elves (and rightly so,) because it is based in centuries of prejudice and tradition. Ron refuses to acknowledge that elves are even truly sentient. Until he does, there can be no point of commonality between the two of them so they can open a viable dialog. They do not think on the same wavelength. This kind of combative pairing makes for an exciting romance story with the big coming together scene at the end, but it quite simply does not fit the Austen paradigm. On the positive side for R/Hr, JKR never said her romances were influenced by Austen. It’s just some of us lit buffs see it.

The ‘road less traveled’ from my perspective—someone who does read young adult fiction literally all of the time—is a meaningful, youthful relationship that is NOT based in sniping, petty jealousies, getting him (or her) to notice how great the other is, or the superficiality of outward appearances. The world of young adult fiction sincerely needs contemporary books that feature romances based in mutual respect and deep, honest caring. In other words, agape love, (selfless love) and phillio (deep friendship.) as well as eros which has always been there. It has not been done much in children’s lit since the early 1970’s because people perceive it as corny and sentimental.

Should JKR write Ron/Hermione romance in canon, it will be so similar to so many other young adult books I’ve read. Boy likes girl, hides it behind blustering and criticism, eventually reveals his love. End of story, yadda, yadda, yadda. Should she write Harry/Ginny, it would be worse because they share no common history, no depth of understanding.

If I were inclined, I could write a perfectly defensible Ron/Hermione shipping essay. The ship is viable and there is ample evidence to support it should JKR write it in canon. I don’t ship R/Hr, however, because my belief is that she is better than that and has something much loftier to tell us about love in all stages of human development. I think that the Harry/Hermione clues are much more telling and weighty because they don’t subscribe to the superficiality of simplistic romance but speak more of the resilience and beauty and spirituality of that classic platonic love we were all talking about a couple of threads ago.

Nia, I have rarely read [except priors by noddwyd and a lot of FP’s stuff] a post that I feel better describes my own position. And stated so eloquently...BTW Nia I absolutely do think there is a lot of comparative merit in many of the bibilical analogies re: canon [as well as the esoteric ones] and hope I didn’t sound harsh or offputting end of last thread in my criticism of one aspect of J. Granger [and if so, I am really sorry!] because I really think it was great that you put it forward for discussion, and I’ve been thinking on a few of them that I feel are quite meaningful. Did anyone catch that bit in noddwyd’s big post? Just wondering. Thought haycheng or others may have seen something there as well...

Why I am cautious regarding attempts to find literary/cinematic support for R/Hr

Prongs, Sr
I basically agree and disagree with this. Darcy does admire her wit and intellect, however, he does not think she is his "social equal", which is one of the obstacles to their forming a relationship. I do like their dynamics and see some similarities to Ron and Hermione.

Prongs, agreed. That’s exactly my point. Ron buys into this social hierarchy and Hermione doesn’t. And it is an obstacle.

Mad I Moody
Ron, IMO, is a good balance for Hermione's militant nature when it comes to SPEW. It is wrong of Hermione to try and trick the elves into taking the hats, and Ron calls her on that. Notice that he doesn't take the hats away, he just removes the trash on them. If he truly wanted to undermine all of Hermione's work, he'd take the hats away, too.

Hermione refuses to see the House-Elves' point of view as well. She's trying to force them into something that they don't want. If she wanted to try and educate them, maybe, but to trick them into freedom, when they don't know where to go or what to do? Ron's right – that's not on.

Finally, I must say that many of the most memorable romances have been born out of these "bickering" relationships. As I mentioned earlier, in both Emma and Pride and Prejudice, we can see examples between (respectively) Emma and Knightly and Elizabeth and Darcy. I know I've mentioned Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy, Han Solo and Princess Leia, Rhett and Scarlett, Kate and Petruchio (Taming of the Shrew), You've Got Mail/Shop Around the Corner, Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle (My Fair Lady), Kathy and Don from Singing in the Rain, Harry and Sally (When Harry Met Sally), Hepburn and Grant in Bringing up Baby, etc. So, apparently, someone, somewhere, thinks that the "bickering couple" works out all right.

Mad I, you present some valid points, so let me briefly address. First, re: Hermione and SPEW-related issues, she has never advocated violence. The term is suggestive and could be perceived as borderline mudslinging. I think all would agree that Hermione has been naïve and simplistic, and may inadvertently have offended those she most wanted to help. However, her cause is worthy and she is still learning. No doubt she will refine her actions once she gets more involved with the actuals of the House Elves’ transition from slavery to freedom, both physically and emotionally [think 40 years in desert to allow minds to be freed from Pharaoh’s clutches as well]. However Ron doesn’t support the end goal because he doesn’t see the cause or those who will benefit as worthy. Huge problem. And Hermione may back down on any particular approach but I do not see her ever compromising her integral beliefs or end goal, as she would sooner cut off her right hand [I’m just going to roll with it...].

Also, times and tastes differ, for certain. IMO Taming of the Shrew and MFL are rot thematically on a number of levels, even if one written in lovely Elizabethan prose by WS. Hardly Will’s finest hour, IMO. And all those other couples may have made for light cinema or comic relief in literature, but I see none of them as portraying a love between soulmates as much as a blessed cessation of hostilities [!] with the arguable exception of Austin’s characters. These couples’ initial troubles [Austen's] I ascribed to the social constraints of the day and abominable class hierarchy with which we still hobble the potential of many in our society. And I always thought that was in the main one of the major themes of her books, demonstrated in the way in which society's prejudices hobbled and warped the natural affinity and affections between like minds and like characters, regardless of outward traits or superficial differences.

And why I think a true soulmate love is quite possible for Harry

Flying Phoenix

Before this I want to write about Love, for your information I don't mean a special kind of love if I write love I mean all kind of love not only romantic love, in this case about "Can a 16 year old fall in love?" I say yes and not only a small yes its a big YES. Because at this age you fall in general for the first time really in love (I mean in novels and in general not you who did fall in love with 12, 17 or older). At the first time its the most powerful thing than anything else.

Its says you falls never again that honest and freely like at the first time. Its for real not just a teenage love, its probably real and truest love you can find. Why? Because you don't know how it has to be, how a boy or girl has to be. You follow just your heart thats why its so dangerous. Its make you weak in a way you don't want be. You don't want or search after the perfect guy or girl you just falls.

Flying Phoenix, great post. And you’re absolutely right. I said it earlier and I’ll repeat, feelings are not bound by age, nor are they different in any qualitative sense over time. It’s only perspective and faith in one’s self that comes with time. For an old soul like Harry, he has already been born with an instinctive knowledge of these things others may spend a lifetime remembering or relearning. Harry has only to realise that he does know, he does remember if only he chooses to access this knowledge [ref the myth of the angel that teaches all to us beforehand but takes our memory of it at birth, so that we must learn to remember].

We in germany have a song what is about love its like that: The very first time it did hurt at the second time not anymore that much and the last time it wasn't word worth

Das macht nichts. Words one hopes never to hear or to say about love or life, that it just doesn’t matter.
Let’s hope Harry never feels that way, or not for too long...

Polaris15
I think it is extremely important that Hermione wasn't like Ginny. Hermione *didn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived. Hermione *couldn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived. Hermione *wouldn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived, and Hermione will *never* have a crush on The Boy Who Lived.
However, Hermione *could* love Harry. Hermione *does* love Harry. If Hermione ends up with Harry, it is because she loves *Harry*, just Harry.

Agreed, and nicely put. Harry is more than his fame, his history, or his wizarding and quidditch skills. Harry needs someone who is equally deep and intense in their own way and can appreciate Harry’s emotional depth, his incumbent responsibilities, and his maturity. If/when Harry falls, it’s not going to be shallow or superficial but rather deep and lasting, based on mutual trust and regard for one another’s person. Harry needs a partner who is a soulmate, as well. Hermione for one has always seen and accepted Harry for the very real, noble, and compassionate gent that he is, all those other trappings of his wizarding life notwithstanding. It’s Harry, just Harry, that she respects, admires, and loves [at very least in truest friendship] and always has done in this manner. IMO for certain this standard would rule out Cho and Ginny, [along with others] as a main weakness for both over the course of several books was revealed as a failure to see Harry for who he truly is. However my feeling is that were Harry and Hermione to realise deeper feelings for one another, the probability of a deep and abiding soulmate love would be high. And IMO that is the only thing that will save Harry from himself. BTW, Ecthelion, I agree completely re: Harry’s state of mind and the solution to his despair, but rather hope not to see more of Ginny as possible shortlisted love interest for Harry…anyway we can hope, yeah?

Lastly, re: angst

Earendil
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Originally Posted by Perdita
What else makes a romance 'angsty?'
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Good question. I would say a romance is angsty when one or both parties suffer from unrequited love, relationship drama, or severe love/hate cases. In short, a romance becomes "angsty" when the focus of the relationship is not in co-existing peacefully and beneficially with one's partner; it's more like struggling with conflicting feelings of love and other varying negative feelings while attempting to sustain the relationship.

Agreed. I speculated in my earlier post that Harry brought angst to the relationship with Cho regarding 1) unresolved emotion over Cedric's death and 2) possible unexamined feeling for Hermione, either/both of which would have explained why Harry was never emotionally available to Cho. Obviously if Harry is with Hermione, no. 2 is not the problem, but in addition to no. 1, we now have the much more critical issue of Sirius's death [and the fact that Harry will cont. to blame himself]. I think Harry will bring angst in the evolution of H/Hr, angst that is external to their feelings for one another, but may nonetheless keep Harry from accepting or openly returning her love -- until such time as he is able to reach past his darkness, his Orthanc. I am hoping very much that love in general, and her love in particular, will be a critical factor in breaching that tower.

Cheers all! There’s no place like home…

Prongs, Sr.

September 6th, 2003, 4:40 am

Hello, Perdita:

On its own, comedy is wonderfully entertaining and can be very meaninful at the same time. However, if it is used to juxtapose a serious topic in a story, the serious topic will appear to be more gripping. What I mean is, comedic and serious are like two styles of representation. The comedic will always be easily dismissed in the presence of the serious. In the HP novels, if the serious is represented by Voldemort and his evil, and comedy is represented by Harry’s romance, then it follows that Harry’s love story will be more likely to be passed over as a frivolous subplot rather than a major theme that encompasses the entire series.

I actually agree with you on this in principle. My major disagreement is that the relationship that will bring comedic value is Ron and Hermione and Harry and Ginny's relationship will be more substantive. Harry is the hero of the story, it is his quest and his coming of age story. Any romance of his is going to take center stage. I'm not sure how JKR is going to handle this and I can only speculate. I think H/G works in a romance that could have comedic value and also a romance that can be very angsty. I think JKR has set up it up for both. The angst value in H/G has to be Harry not remembering that Ginny was possessed by Voldemort. This is a large obstacle that he will have to overcome in order for them to get together. She must be very hurt and angry at him for not remember this, and frankly, who could blame her. We can only imagine the trauma she had in the chamber.

As for your question regarding what defines angst in a romance. I would say that I personally enjoy when large obstacles, misunderstands, and conflict are in the way of a couple getting together and it makes it emotionally satisfying when they do come together. I can't remember a lot of books, off hand, where friends have gotten together and I've enjoyed it or consider it a classic. I typically enjoy the conflict type stories, but everyone certainly has their own opinions and likes/dislikes!

LoonyLuna15

September 6th, 2003, 4:46 am

I agree... But suddenly I just realized I don't care whatever ships Ms. Rowling throughs at us... I know how she writes and I know that whatever we get I'll be happy with. She's done things I didn't agree with, but wrote them in such a way it didn't matter... knock 'em dead, JK!

v@sh

September 6th, 2003, 5:15 am

This thread sure flies, come back a day later and the thread has 3 added pages.

Well, v@sh, I think that Fleur is the one to whom JK was referring. In any case, the exact same question could be asked of H/Hr shippers, who before OotP was released were quoting plenty of evidence from GoF in support of that ship.

I think JKR was very clear on who the couple were. It was clear that JKR directed her response to H/C, Hr/V and R/F. Why?

Welll simply she said:

Will Ron ever get a girlfriend? I'm laughing again.... Why wouldn't he?! Though he's not doing too well at the moment, is he? But then, Fleur Delacour was really aiming a bit high.

We see that in JKR refer to Ron being 'in love' after Fleur.

She also said that:

Q: Will Harry find romance in book four?

A: He tries, but he doesn't get very far.

They're all kind of after the wrong people, as in life. Hermione gets the first date, and it's quite a cool one because I thought I owed her a bit of fun.

In here Hermione got a date and was 'in love' with Krum. In book 4 Harry was behind or was in love with Cho and Ginny was with Michael Corner or was in 'love', she also went to the ball with Neville(that would automaticly disqualified him also).

Thanks for your responses Davydee, Gilyann. I think Sirius83 summed up H/Hr's response to that your question Davydee and I do understand how the R/Hr and H/G's may interpret it the other way as well. Seems like the quotes coupled with canon confuses the relationships between each other more complex. So I'll stick to canon, quotes can be too misleading and not fully truthful. Just one question Gilyann, where does it in canon if GoF state that Ginny was with Michael Corner or was in 'love'? It does in OoTP I know but at the time the quote was for GoF since OoTP wasn't out yet so I can see your interpretation of the quote after OoTP came out.

Emma - Jane Austen/Harry Potter - JKR Opinion

Interesting to see the different interpretations of the characters in Emma. I actually had to study Emma in my final year of high school (last year) as a core text for English. I wasn't the best at english, prob. more like Harry in potions. Anyway my opinions (and that of the teacher) of the characters were siding more towards the H/Hr interpretations. The reason is that H/G && R/Hr say that Emma and Knightly bicker a lot with each other. I don't quite see this IMO. The bickering (if you can call it that) occurs because Knightly tries to knock some sense into Emma's treatment of lower class people and her own ambitions to heighten her own social class. Even if they do bicker, there is a respect between the two - something that R/Hr don't have as much as H/Hr.

Knightly to me, is similar to Hermione, he values others based on a person's personality and values rather than social class, a scene which I found very reminiscent of the Yule Brawl is where Knightly is astonished to find that Emma refuses Harriet to marry someone of a lower class as (forget what his name is, i'll call him the farmer for now) the farmer. Knightly definately sees that both (Harriet and the farmer) like each other, yet Emma refuses for Harriet to marry because of his lower social status. This is similar to where Hermione is angry at Ron for his views on which girl he should take to the ball i.e. as long as the girl is pretty even if she isn't smart, funny or a total prat he'll go along with her. Here there is a common view between Knightly and Hermione which is that they're judgements of values are both correct in relation to the supporting characters.

Harriet is to me like Ron. She is a sidekick to Emma like Ron is to Harry. I know some may feel like Ron is one of the leading protagonists as well but in reality thats what he is with Harry at the moment. Both (Harriet/Ron) are poor and social status is not as high as other characters or families e.g. the Malfoys, the Diggorys, the Bones. All hold higher positions in the ministry. So if JKR is to follow the trend of Emma's books I can see her partnering Ron up with a supporting character as well who Ron will be happy with e.g. Luna

In the end the two protagonists end up being together, Emma finally not only realises her faults of what she has done but also her realisation of having someone like Knightly because Knightly shows her the ways of valuing others. Doesn't this ring a bell to H/Hr shippers? Like I said if JKR does follow the trend in Emma's books Harry will finally realise how to harness his power and also his realisation of Hermione being with him since the beginning. This also is in parallel with H/Hr's views that Harry will realise what Hermione really means to him in the end i.e. late book 6 or book 7.

While some may think Ginny could end up with Harry, I don't deny that if we are told of her re-growing feelings for Harry. But IMO she compared to Hermione is not one of the protagonists. The reason I say that is because she hasn't been around in enough detail for her to be one of the protagonists and hasn't been part of all the quests except the DoM whereas Hermione has been involved in basically all of them.

There are many similarities/contrasts/comparisons/parallels between many literacies and films, its bound to happen when such a book gets large sellings and publicity. But if JKR continues her trends similar to that of Emma, it seems that the two protagonists will end up together i.e. Harry and Hermione

Quick Note before I bugger off: On the top of similarities etc. if you's have seen Rugrats I saw a lot of parallels in the characters:

Tommy - Harry (leading protagonist)
Chuckie - Ron (best friend and sidekick)
Phil & Lil - Fred and George (both twins and both the comic characters along with Chuckie)
Angelica - Umbridge ( :D couldn't think of many parallels with Angelica in here)

EDIT: I found out there were lots of grammatical errors here and there and had to stitch things up a little.

marspeach

September 6th, 2003, 6:07 am

And Ron and Chuckie both have red hair! What a coincidence!

Polaris15

September 6th, 2003, 6:32 am

I do not agree that Ginny is a flat character. We learned minor things about her over the first four books, but either way you argue , she is no longer a flat character.

Flat characters are caricatures. They don't show *change.* The don't *develope*. In OotP, we found out Ginny's true personality. We found out how sorts of interesting facts about her, but that's what they are: facts. Most people automatically assume that flat characters are characters that rarely have speaking roles and are rarely mentioned; and Ginny fits this description for the first four books. She was indeed a flat character. My point is, though, flat characters are not always limited to charaters with small roles. A character may have many opportunites to speak, yet still be a flat character. I'm sure you're familiar with many great works of literature such as Pride and Prejudice. I'm also sure you noticed that many of the characters are flat, but they're not necessarily minor characters. In Pride and Prejudice, for example, many of the major characters are flat. Jane and Bingley serve as great examples. They both had a large portion of speaking parts, yet they're still flat characters; they're just there. We know of their disposition and personalities, but that doesn't mean they're round characters.
To be round characters, they must not only have major roles in the novel, but they must move with the plot-line. The only characters that are truly round in Harry Potter are Harry, Hermione, and Ron, Dumbledore and perhaps Neville. The others, such as Molly, Arthur, Fred, George, and the rest of the Order are all caricatures. Together, they form a nice background, but they'll never take center stage.

As for Ginny's characteristics being out of nowhere, I completely disagree. We had, until book 5, recieved very small hints about her character from Ron, Fred, George, and Hermione.

The only thing we know about Ginny before OotP is that she likes to talk and she has a crush on Harry. Other than that, I don't see anything subtly hinted. Perhaps you would like to post some examples.

I may point out that a large majority of fans predicted that what came to be in OotP were Ginny's strongest attributes. I don't believe I'm mistaken in saying that many thought that was what she was truly like. Many of them were H/G shippers, but that's not the point. Personally, that's exactly how I pictured her, and I *DO NOT* see her attributes in Book 5 as "new" but rather "old," I see it as Ginny coming out of her shell in front of Harry.So again, not a new personality, but confidence in her true one you might say.

I'm not doubting Ginny's personality as not being *true*, because JKR had written Ginny to be a bold, spunky, fiery Weasley. It would be ridiculous for me to say that Ginny is only "pretending" to act like a wonderwoman when in reality, she's shy and homely. Ludicrous. However, I do think that it is a bit sudden and a tad contrived. JKR could've laid more evidence prior to OotP.
Also, the predictions of the other fans are irrelevant to our discussion.

I was referring to the fact that JKR introduces us by name or nby brief meeting to certain characters and then develops them later. A few examples mioght include Luna Lovegood, Susan Bones, Mundungus Fletcher, Arabella Figg, the Prewetts, the McKinnons, Dedalus Diggle, Cornelius Fudge

Again, these are mostly flat characters. They're an important part of the plot, but they are just supporting characters. They don't show any real changes. Fudge has always been the timid, suspicious, doubtful Fudge. Again, they're simply characteristics; it does not factor into whether the characters are round or flat.

(and there are several who believe that Mark Evans might be the next name dropped to mean something.)

He might, or he might not. We don't know, so I won't comment.

let's not forget, that Sirius Black too was once just a name, in Book 1 with the flying motorcycle. My point is simply that JK seems to frequently introduce us to someone and develop them later, when it is most relevant to the story.

Again, I believe Sirius is a flat character. True, he has a big role in the books, but he is definitely not round. He has always been Sirius. We just found out more about his personality. These are, again, only facts.

Why would it be appropriate to develop her then? How would she fit into the storyline???

There may be many uses for Ginny. Foremost, Ginny could be apart of the force that would eventually defeat Voldemort. She is there, along with the other members in the DA.
Furthermore, many characters are there for entertainment; Ginny's personality is oddly similar to Fred and George's; Ginny could be a replacement for Fred and George in Hogwarts. Again, just because a character is there, doesn't mean he/she has to be important.

He has already shone signs of drifting from them, feeling seperated. I do not believe that it was coincidence that in the "Possession" scene and in the Library scene Harry opened up to Ginny. I'm not saying they are best friends right now, but I think this will be important in later books, the fact that Harry has a person outside of the trio who he can and has talked to, and to some extent, can identify with his particular situation better than Hermione.
I seriously doubt that Harry would evade his best friends and seek comfort with Ginny instead. Afterall, Ginny's possession wasn't the same as Harry's. As far as understanding? Ginny is not competition to Hermione. Ginny may know the feeling of being possessed by Voldemort, but Hermione knows *Harry*. That makes all the difference.

We got to know Ginny fairly well in Book 5, and 6 and 7 makes three books. How hard did we all cry when Sirius died? He was only around for three books, developed for three solid books. Why is Ginny not privvy to the same importance developing int he same period of time?

Again, to me, Sirius is not a round character. We are sad when he died; we would be said if Lupin died; or Mad Eye Moody, or anyone in the Order, but the point is, they're all flat characters, and I most certainly agree that Ginny could be well-presented as a flat character; but there is not enough time to really develope her and change her into a round character.

I think we can all agree from Harry's experience with Cho that he needed some time to mature (in between beating Voldemort at his own game every thirty seconds) before he could get into a truly meaningful relationship. I think that with the revealing of the prophecy, a meaningful relationship is something Harry is looking for, he simself said he was over the "Cho" phase, of crushing on someone for their good looks and superficial interests.

Very well said. I salute you.

It would have been difficult for him to seek to return the feelings, even if he hadn't been hooked on Cho, when she could hardly talk to him without turning beet red.

To the contrary, it would be extremely easy on Harry's part. He already knows the girl has a crush on him, so Harry won't have to fear rejection. If Harry truly liked Ginny, then he would've asked Ginny to be his girlfriend already.

I wouldn't say Harry was desperate per se, he could have gone with almost any girl, several even asked him, he turned them down because he wanted to go out with Cho.

Actually, Harry was desperate. It was true he turned down those first girls, but since he took so long in asking Cho, he put himself in a dead-end. Most of the girls were already taken by then.

But Harry had just seen Parvati and Lavender come in through the portrait hole. The time had come for drastic action. (401 GoF)

I'd say Harry was *very* desperate.

An notice this, Ginny still went with Neville when she could have gone with Harry. She kept her promise to Neville, when she could have gone with her longtime crush. That says a lot about her character to me.

Um...I don't think I ever made a bad comment about Ginny's character; so this is irrelevant. Besides, Harry *never* asked her. Ron was the one who came up with the plan, so I don't think Ginny could've gone with Harry.

And he has showed no jealousy in her Krum experience,
Does true love have to revolve around jealousy?

she no jealous interest in the Cho fiasco.

Nope, merely firm dislike; re-read the Post-kiss scene. Hermione's reaction is very telling.

They have repeatedly denied they are together, either being reduced to fits of giggles or becoming very confused when people even suggest it.

Flawed observation. Hermione *never* denied it. Harry only denied it after Hermione started getting hate-mail. Where is the giggling stuff?

I see your pont about her never loving Harry.

I believe you misinterpreted my point. I said she would never love the "Boy Who Lived", because Hermione is not superficial. When she comes to love Harry, it would be pure, true, and sincere. It would be based on Harry's person, not his title.

I beleive it works the other way. it would be perfectly logical for Hermione to fall in love with Harry, the hero, her best friend, the incredibly great guy almost all the girls would love to have (though most of them not for sincere reasons.)

Yes, it would be perfectly logical to fall in love with the "hero", the "great guy that most girls would love to have", but Harry is not a trophy; he doesn't want attention; he doesn't want to be a hero; he doesn't want to be this "great guy that girls want" He only wants to be Harry, just Harry, and Hermione understands this. It is insulting that other shippers believe that the only logical reason why Hermione would fall for Harry is because of his money, fame, and scar.

But instead she falls for Ron, her other best friend, who she bickers with, who she disagrees with, who is a marvellous guy in and of himself, but he is not a Harry. I see it as perfectly fitting for Hermione to fall in love with Ron Weasley, the loyal sidekick, the one who is hot-tempered and sometimes hot headed ,but undeniably compassionate and smart, though not in her league talent wise. It;'s ironic, it may even be crazy or illogical in her mind, but its there. Now thats a great story.

..But instead, she falls for Ron, who argues with her constantly, over the most trivial things--who insults and teases her for believing in freedom and social equality---who accuses her unreasonably of betraying their best friend---who discarded her friendship for a rat he didn't care about---who doesn't display any respect to her----who doesn't appreciate her for who she is, except when it comes to copying homework---who yells at her without reason---who screams at her without cause---who sends her crying into the girls dormitory more than anyone else ever did.

Yes, it would be a good story; it is dramatic, it is angsty; it would be an interesting read, yet it would also be a good tragedy.

P.S. Happy Davedee?

Daveydee

September 6th, 2003, 8:35 am

by the way it is how to use the quote function
This is a quote
except e at the end of quot=quote

Thanks, but I'm just too lazy to use them. I rather use the quick reply. That way I could cut and paste the messages and it would be easy to see.
Nevertheless - you should. It makes the post so much easier to read, as well as referencing the source of the quote. It's the accepted way of doing things on this forum, and really takes no time or effort.

Gosh I need an avatar. Know any good places to get them?You won't get the option to use an avatar until you are are 3rd year and are invited by the mods to access Hogsmeade. One of the main criteria for consideration for Hogsmeade access is that when posting on the forums, you do things by the book.

PS: ^ Much better Polaris15. Much better for all of us; I'm sure you'll agree. :)

FlyingPhoenix

September 6th, 2003, 9:06 am

v@sh I agree with you about "Emma" and I thought only I see or interpret it like that.
By the way, how do people around here define angst in the context of romance? We all know what teenage angst is because all of us here have gone through it, or is still living it. But what is angsty romance? Is it simply that the two main protagonists in a love story want to be with each other, but they can’t because of external or internal obstacles/inhibitions that constantly foil their chances of hooking up? Or, they have hooked up with each other, but are forced to separate and are still very desirous of one another.What else makes a romance 'angsty?'

First a romance is in general always 'angsty' because you fear to lose what you has. Thats why I think H/C wasn't a real romance because Harry never had fears to lose Cho's liking. If she was with him fine if she wasn't even fine. It didn't bother him.
'Angsty' is for me that you can't live this kind of love you feel though you know the other one feel the same. Angsty is if Love turns into hurting you like never before. Like you said Perdita that is angsty.
The other form of angsty is if the one you love do hurt you with words or disrespect thats another way of angsty.
Some say R/Hr would be better for the trio but they forget Love don't make three people happy. Not this kind of love its make two, if it makes happy, only two people happy. But its possible that it makes only one happy.
Thats what I mean if I say love isn't nice and fluffly or even comical. Its about two people not about three or four or the whole world. Its don't count anymore whats around this two its count only this feelings. If you read novels and its come to this just take "Emma" suddenly its focused at this feelings.
Love makes you weak. I take again "Emma" for this because she was through this book always strong and didn't see she was wrong. But as fast as she got she is in love with Knightley she is weak. In a way what let you ask Is Love such a great idea? She see what she did wrong and how right he was. She feels guilty. Knightley is even weak. This scene as they took this walk there you can read how weak they were.
Its possible that they get rejected by each other but they don't protect they soul like you normaly do. Its open for to get hurt.

Because love makes you weak I see or rather say that Hermione falls for Harry as he come back from the hearing. She was never that weak like in this scene. Yeah she did cry before and it was in PoA as she nearly break down but its a different to be able to say words and to cry or to sit there with shaking hands and just say a phrase. Its how JKR write it normally there is only a short description in a break between one part of the dialog to another part but at this point is a whole sentence just a lot detail how Hermione sit there and what she is doing. Nobody else is that detail descript like Hermione. Its written what she did as Harry entered the kitchen and what she do now. This we don't have by Mrs Weasley, Ginny or Ron.

This is what I did recorgnise that everytime where is a H/Hr scene or rather what my shipmates and I do call it H/Hr scenes you have a detail description about Hermione what she is doing. Its focused at her. Cho for example was not once that clear descript like Hermione. By her was it always she is very pretty but thats it. Probably black hiars but that is all. Its like JKR took her time to descripe Hermione something I don't see by other characters. Maybe by Dumbledore or Sirius. Just try it and read OotP with your attention how much Hermione is descript or in this book though she isn't Cho.

Lord - Thingy

September 6th, 2003, 11:00 am

Thank you evaluna, and thank you for the welcome Perdita, yes I am old enough to drink.... and to remember vinyl records.... and now I am feeling old and getting depressed.

Moving on. I usually have nothing to say because someone already said it better so I'll just state some of my reasons to support H/Hr.

They are close friends

They respect each other deeply even if they argue

They are on the same 'tune'; as it's been said they are both 'old souls'

They both come from the muggle world so they can appreciate how wonderful the magic world is, even better than wizards

They admire each other

So if they ever become romantically interested, they will have a very solid foundation for their love, based on something deeper and more meaningful than a crush or physical attraction.

Bye Now

Mad I

September 6th, 2003, 3:05 pm

They are close friendsTrue, but this could also be a bad thing for them as it could be just too weird because there are good friends......think of how Harry reacts to her kiss.
They respect each other deeply even if they argueTrue, not much to say except many people argue for the "tension" between Ron and Hermione leading to a relationship. But, despite many arguments against me and others yesterday I wasn't convinced that Harry and Ron don't respect Hermione's smarts because they only want to copy but this is a possibility. They are on the same 'tune'; as it's been said they are both 'old souls'True, although I am not sure what you mean by 'old souls' you will have to tell me. But, Harry and Hermione definitley do have a deep link between them, they seem to share theories and such. They both come from the muggle world so they can appreciate how wonderful the magic world is, even better than wizardsTrue, and I understand what you are saying, but I kinda fail to see how this contributes to a possible relationship because just because they appreciate magic and they may share a minor bond because of their interaction with muggles it isn't exactly the kind of bond that will contribute to a relationship.
They admire each other
True, but I think that they admire each other in other ways than what seems to be implied by this statement. Hermoine, being one of the smartest people from Griffindor always seems to be the voice of reason in the adventures of Ron and Harry, because of this it seems that she has grown to admire Harry's bravery (see: the end of PS/SS) and his disregard of what she sees as impossible odds. She has started to grow out of that (see: OotP pretty much the entire book see takes more risks than she would have in Book 1) but still admires Harry's bravery. Harry on the other hand recognizes that voice of reason and admires Hermione's ability to assess situations even if she is too scared to act upon them. Harry often asks Hermione for help on homework and other school related activities as well as the brain buster at the end of PS/SS. This is because he recongnizes her abilities and chooses to use them. So if they ever become romantically interested, they will have a very solid foundation for their love, based on something deeper and more meaningful than a crush or physical attraction.True again, that they would have a solid foundation but there still has to be a pretty major change to make the feelings of friendship change into love, but once that does happen I do agree that the foundation will already be built.

sone

September 6th, 2003, 3:20 pm

True, but this could also be a bad thing for them as it could be just too weird because there are good friends......think of how Harry reacts to her kiss.

To me, that is highly unlikely. If Harry and Hermione had jumped the gun too soon, then I would agree. But as of now, it is moving very slowly which is good for their deep friendship.

Mad I

September 6th, 2003, 3:38 pm

To me, that is highly unlikely. If Harry and Hermione had jumped the gun too soon, then I would agree. But as of now, it is moving very slowly which is good for their deep friendship.I am not trying to say that they are moving fast, just that even if they are very close best friends who spend all their time together it is still going to be a jump from friendship to dating and I am not sure if that change will agree with them.

Ecthelion

September 6th, 2003, 3:50 pm

Ahh excellent...a debate!

True, but this could also be a bad thing for them as it could be just too weird because there are good friends......think of how Harry reacts to her kiss.

Well, in the fourth book, and the fifth book's kiss, he was rather indifferent. So indifferent as a matter of fact, that in the fifth book, it was overlooked by many people. This to me says that there's room to develop a relationship. Harry has yet to be consciencesly uncomfortable with Hermione in those type of situations in a major way. Their friendship condenscends anything of such trivial nature as being uncomfortable with each other. Sooner or later, in one way or another, they're going to work it out.

True, and I understand what you are saying, but I kinda fail to see how this contributes to a possible relationship because just because they appreciate magic and they may share a minor bond because of their interaction with muggles it isn't exactly the kind of bond that will contribute to a relationship.

I think what their trying to say is that this is yet another special connection between the two that Ron has nought.

This is because he recongnizes her abilities and chooses to use them.

Sparingly though. The fact is, Harry and Hermione feed off each other. They need each other to get through the forthcoming ordeals ahead of them. What another's weakness is, it's the others strength. They are inextricable in so many ways it is overwhelming. Harry looks to Hermione for help in intellectual moments even when he is too prideful or kind to ask for help. Hermione saves Harry in so many places where he would have ultimately failed, it forms a link rivaled by no other. Yet, this interchanging is not one-sided by anymeans. When Hermione's intellect and considerable foresight fails her, Harry steps in with his bravery and physical & mental strength. The situation with Grawp is a perfect example.

Harry doesn't use Hermione in the sense that Ron does. It just so happens that when Harry obviously needs her is trivial in nature...or homework. Even in that, I don't think he's ever said directly or indirectly for Hermione to do his work. Whether it be out of pride or good-intentions....he doesn't do it. That means something.

I do agree that the foundation will already be built.

Well said :tu: :)

ALSO:

:welcome: to the HMS Harmony Lord Thingy!

Mad I

September 6th, 2003, 3:59 pm

Sparingly though. The fact is, Harry and Hermione feed off each other. They need each other to get through the forthcoming ordeals ahead of them. What another's weakness is, it's the others strength. They are inextricable in so many ways it is overwhelming. Harry looks to Hermione for help in intellectual moments even when he is too prideful or kind to ask for help. Hermione saves Harry in so many places where he would have ultimately failed, it forms a link rivaled by no other. Yet, this interchanging is not one-sided by anymeans. When Hermione's intellect and considerable foresight fails her, Harry steps in with his bravery and physical & mental strength. The situation with Grawp is a perfect example.This is what I was trying to say but you said it much better :) .

Daveydee

September 6th, 2003, 4:21 pm

<snipped>
So if they (Harry and Hermione) ever become romantically interested, they will have a very solid foundation for their love, based on something deeper and more meaningful than a crush or physical attraction.
Glad this has been mentioned, because this is one of the main couterpoints by the H/Hr ship to R/Hr, and one which has largely gone unchallenged. Namely that a relationship between Harry and Hermione will be based on deep feelings and that Ron's attraction to Hermione is based upon the superficial crushing of physical attraction.

That in mind - here's a conundrum, I'd like to pose to all the good shipmates of HMS Harmony:

Ron clearly carries a torch for Hermione, on that point I'm sure we can all agree.

1. Is it suggested or alluded to in canon that Ron is physically attracted to Hermione?

If you answer 'Yes':

2. Where is it?

Alternatively, if you answer 'No':

3. In the absence of Ron being physically attracted to Hermione what other explanation is there for his feelings towards her?

sone

September 6th, 2003, 4:24 pm

I am not trying to say that they are moving fast, just that even if they are very close best friends who spend all their time together it is still going to be a jump from friendship to dating and I am not sure if that change will agree with them.

I am not trying to saying they're moving fast either, just the opposite. The change will agree with them more if it slowly takes effect which is exactly what it is doing. If they were say "dating" in their 5th year then I could see where you were coming from because that would definitely be a problem.

Mad I

September 6th, 2003, 4:34 pm

I am not trying to saying they're moving fast either, just the opposite. The change will agree with them more if it slowly takes effect which is exactly what it is doing. If they were say "dating" in their 5th year then I could see where you were coming from because that would definitely be a problem.Going slowly is definitley going to ease the problems associated with dating your friend, but no matter how slowly that they take it they still are going to be uncomfortable more than the average couple when they start doing things such as holding hands (although I can't see Harry having much more problem holding Hermione's hand than Cho's hand).

sone

September 6th, 2003, 5:17 pm

Going slowly is definitley going to ease the problems associated with dating your friend, but no matter how slowly that they take it they still are going to be uncomfortable more than the average couple when they start doing things such as holding hands (although I can't see Harry having much more problem holding Hermione's hand than Cho's hand).

Well unfortunately that is inevitable....and that's just speaking from personal experience. But it always helps to go slow than fast. Slow is uncomfortable (at least in the beginning) but fast, now that is just uncomfortable and aggravating. Kinda like Harry and Cho's relationship.

Mad I

September 6th, 2003, 5:30 pm

Well unfortunately that is inevitable....and that's just speaking from personal experience. But it always helps to go slow than fast. Slow is uncomfortable (at least in the beginning) but fast, now that is just uncomfortable and aggravating. Kinda like Harry and Cho's relationship.Well put :).

Fabiana

September 6th, 2003, 6:40 pm

Hi!

Hope you all are having a nice weekend… This is a long post, sorry...

Daveydee,

Ron clearly carries a torch for Hermione, on that point I'm sure we can all agree.

1. Is it suggested or alluded to in canon that Ron is physically attracted to Hermione?

If you answer 'Yes':

2. Where is it?

Well, I don’t believe so. But I honestly believe that if Hermione went to the Yule Ball with Neville, still with huge teeth, bushy uncontrolled hair and a lousy dress Ron wouldn’t mind insulting her the way he did. (But this is just my humble opinion).

Alternatively, if you answer 'No':

3. In the absence of Ron being physically attracted to Hermione what other explanation is there for his feelings towards her?

First of all, I think Ron is really immature when it comes to feelings. If you don’t mind, I’d like to remind you Ron’s first plan for the Yule Ball. Using Hermione’s words: “take the best looking girl who would have him, even if she’s completely horrible”. (GoF - UK Version - pg 344).

Ron tried asking Fleur, but she didn’t even look at him. He got desperate, ‘cause most of the girls were already taken. Then, Ginny told him that Neville has asked Hermione to go to the ball with him, but she didn’t accept it. Ron thought that Hermione did that because she would never go on a date with Neville – he presumed she would feel embarrassed, after all Neville is really clumsy.

But it turned out that Hermione didn’t go with Neville because she had been asked before by Viktor Krum - Triwizard Champion, internationally famous Quidditch player and supposedly considered “#1 catch” by Hogwarts girls. I do believe that if Krum hadn’t asked her, she would go with Neville without thinking twice. But anyway…

Ron didn’t believe any other guy would ask Hermione out. Why is that? Is it because he thinks Hermione is a bossy, bookworm that has some appreciation for the rules? I honestly don’t know. The fact is: Ron hadn’t considered inviting her in the first place, when he just wanted to invite the good-looking girls.

Then, it finally struck him. Hermione WAS a girl. Hermione could go to the ball with him. But Hermione wasn’t going to, because someone had already invited her.

In my humble opinion, Ron took Hermione for granted. I’m sure if Fleur or any other good-looking girl had accepted to go to the ball with him, he wouldn’t even bother thinking about her or if she would go to the ball or not.

He felt betrayed because in his mind, Hermione was something like an asset. For him, it seemed that she was always going to be there. He didn’t realize that Hermione was a girl and had her own life outside the “trio environment”. It seems that for him, any interaction outside the trio would seem like a betrayal.

Than, he sees her in the ball, looking just as beautiful as the girl he planned to ask in the first place and in the company of his greatest idol. He finally sees the girl as she really is outside their “little world”. I think this is where his “romantic feelings” (if he indeed has any) start.

Let me just say that I don’t think his feelings are strong enough to build something like love. For me, this is just a crush. I think that from the Yule Ball on, what Ron really likes about Hermione is the fact that she is a girl (and she can be good looking if she wants, it’s just not her priority). He surely hadn’t realized this in its full sense before.

I think this is really common when you’re a teenager. Becoming interested in someone just because this person is there, not taking into consideration who this person truly is. Take as an example the crush some teenager girls have on popular guys at school. They just go for the fact that they are boys and are handsome, but they don’t know how they truly behave, or even it their personalities and tastes match. Now, someone could say I’m contradicting myself, because I’ve said before about how Ron went first after the good looking girls. I think this is the point: Ron realized that Hermione can be good-looking too. And the better: she is his best-friend and really close to him. I’m sure Ron is not interested in Hermione because she’s intelligent, courageous or caring. If this were indeed true, he would have fell for her before the whole “Yule Brawl” incident.

And as a matter of fact, I do have some doubts if he really has feelings for Hermione. In Ootp, he showed the same kind of jealousy towards his sister. I think the whole point about Ron is: he doesn’t accept the girls close to him having a life of their own outside his world. (This would explain why he was pushing Ginny towards Harry, after all Harry is inside Ron’s world).

P.S. – Oh, Harmonians, please, let me sail the HMS Harmony too? I’ve talked to MEM and he said it was okay, but since I haven’t seen him here for a while, would you guys let me in?

Daveydee

September 6th, 2003, 7:11 pm

Thanks for replying, Fabiana.

Though you addressed your reply in the context of the Yule Ball, I was in fact asking a more general question about why the H/Hr fandom choose to represent Ron's feelings for Hermione as being based solely on shallow physical attraction. No problem though.

Anyhow, you are quite right Fabiana, there is no canon evidence to support the contention that Ron at any point even considers Hermione's physical appearance. None. Zippo. Not one single shred.

Then, he sees her in the ball, looking just as beautiful as the girl he planned to ask in the first place and in the company of his greatest idol. He finally sees the girl as she really is outside their “little world”. I think this is where his “romantic feelings” (if he indeed has any) start.

No!! No, no, no, no, no. JK clearly makes a specific point of not alluding to Ron's reaction to Hermione's stunning appearance at the ball. In fact she goes out of her way to let us see how Ron does not give as much as a second glance at her apperance. Furthermore she clarifies the situation by depicting Rons' 'moment of realisation' before Hermione appears at her beautiful best.

Let me just say that I don’t think his feelings are strong enough to build something like love. For me, this is just a crush. I think that from the Yule Ball on, what Ron really likes about Hermione is the fact that she is a girl (and she can be good looking if she wants, it’s just not her priority). He surely hadn’t realized this in its full sense before.

I think that it is therefore fair to conclude from the fact that Ron is not swayed one way or another by Hermione's physical appearance, that his crush, if you wish to call it that, is based on something else.

To summarise - my answer to my own question:

Ron has feelings for Hermione. His feelings aren't based on her looks as he is not bothered about that either way. His feelings for Hermione arise out of the fact that he actually likes her as a person.

Thus, IMO, the argument that R/Hr should/will never happen because it's based on Ron's shallowness in terms of looks, becomes null and void; thereby eliminating a central plank of the anti-R/Hr viewpoint.

DumbledoreTheWise

September 6th, 2003, 7:25 pm

Polaris, I just wrote the Longest post in the history of the world, and very well writeen if I do say so myself, and the it wouldn't post, there was an error, and all has been lost. Good Lord, maybe I will try agian when I have time, but it took me two and a half hours to wrtite that.
I think I'll go cry now. :(

Sirius83

September 6th, 2003, 7:27 pm

Oh I don't know. My reason against R/Hr is Ron's treatment of Hermione, not that he's shallow about her. He's shallow about girls in general, but while he may like Hermione for who she is, it's his treatment of her that really bothers me.

Daveydee

September 6th, 2003, 7:34 pm

.... but while he may like Hermione for who she is, it's his treatment of her that really bothers me.
I'm glad we've finally established that he likes her for who she is. We can work on the treatment; see if we can't put that into context too. :whistle:

DumbledoreTheWise - Ouch! It might have been too long. I thinks there's a max character limit when posting. Do long posts like that in Word first, then cut and paste.

GilyAnn

September 6th, 2003, 7:47 pm

I completely forgot who I was answering I think it was Haycheng on this:

It is a different opinion between you and somone. IMHOI believe it is because he understand Hermione well that he know there is certain issue that he should not argue with her. However, it does not matter. The fact is Harry is generally more accept to Hermione's opinion in daily life. He know he is lazy and Hermione is rightoues so to yell at him. He feels more guilty than angry in most situation.

I trully feel that is not about him understanding Hermione is simply about not hearing about her. Ever since SS/PS Harry has some issues with the way Hermione handle things. (when he tells Ron that he sounds like Hermione). I also don’t think that he accepts her comments otherwise he would follow her advice more often. I also don’t think that he fells guilty otherwise he also would have felt about all the times that he yelled at her and reduced her to tears.

Again If I forgot to answer to someone please do post # and will do. I lost my train of though.

I don't see how this can't be interpretted that Ginny is implying that she is dating Dean Thomas, I can however understand scepticism as to whether or not it is true.

My problem with that is the uncertainty of this answer. There are several posiblilities with the word choosen.

a.Ginny is dating Dean Thomas
b.Dean is interested in Ginny and has made an approach but nothing has come out of it, even though Ginny likes him.
c.Dean is interested in Ginny made an approach but Ginny doesn’t like him.
d.Ginny is interested in Dean but he doesn’t like her.
e.Ginny and Dean are interested but nothing has come up as of yet.

With the word choosen we have many possibilities, sticking to one maybe setting for dissapointment.

All indications from our beloved Miss Rowling are that we will learn more about Ginny. Has it occured to you there might be an appropriate time for these things to come into full view? Has it occured to you that what may be more telling is that Harry has known Hermione pretty well for five years and STILL isn't interested in her??? i'm not downplaying Hermy's importance, she's very important. But just because she has been the central female doesn't mean she will end up with the Boy Who Lived.

I agree. I think that even the famous talk about the chamber has not been feature yet. Mainly because the connotations and consequences of it would be reflected at some point in book 6 or 7.

That whole conversation between them at the end led me to believe Harry likes Luna...

I honestly don’t believe that Harry likes Luna based on that. I think he trully feels sorry and JKR wants to be sorry about Luna. She is appealing to our feelings to make us feel sorry about Luna. Just like she appealed to our feelings that Cedric was a nice guy. She wants us to feel sorry for Luna.

It would've been appropriate to give Ginny a bigger role in PoA and GoF. It could've been appropriate to show some interaction between Ginny and the trio prior to OotP; however, it is *not* appropriate to squish everything into the two last books.

First Ginny was developed in PoA and in GoF. We got hints of her personality, any issues she may have had. It was all there, just because it wasn’t the in your face kind of thing it doesn’t mean she was developed.

I'm not basing my argument on their roles, but on their character. I think it is extremely important that Hermione wasn't like Ginny. Hermione *didn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived. Hermione *couldn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived. Hermione *wouldn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived, and Hermione will *never* have a crush on The Boy Who Lived.
However, Hermione *could* love Harry. Hermione *does* love Harry. If Hermione ends up with Harry, it is because she loves *Harry*, just Harry.

Ok I have a question. I perfectly understand that not all H/Hr shippers have the same opinion. But I have heard H/Hr shippers say that Hermione liked Harry ever since SS/PS ever since that famous hug thing. I also have heard by H/Hr shippers that Hermione was from the beginning very interested in Harry. Her remark on the train ‘I know all about you’ (which it could be classified as a fan girl statement, which I AM NOT GOING TO because I know what she meant) and her constant assedium is indicative of her liking Harry from the beginning. All of this according to some H/Hr shippers. My questions is: Which is your standpoint in this because it seems to be a controversy on this and every H/Hr shipper has a different one.

Also by means of clarification Ginny didn’t have a crush on the boy who lived. In book 4 Harry clarifies ever since WHEN Ginny started liking Harry. He clearly says that it was with his first visit to the burrow that Ginny started liking him. This after she had heard on how wonderful Harry’s personality was and how great he was. Her statement in F & B says something about that she understood Harry and if you notice she never pointed at him, suffocate Harry to be with her or even try to force her way into the group.

Yeah, I realize basing a H/L ship on ONE convo is kinda stupid, but hey, I am kinda stupid.

LoonyLuna15 don’t say that! Your opinion is as valid as anyone else here. Just because most of us disagree with you it doesn’t make you wrong. You could be the one being right.

I have a very weird opinion of what Luna is and her role but I usually get stabbed for it. Just because you are different it doesn’t make you wrong. It makes you different and that’s what moves the world around. How boring would it be if all of us had the same opinion.

I do not agree that Ginny is a flat character. We learned minor things about her over the first four books, but either way you argue , she is no longer a flat character. As for Ginny's characteristics being out of nowhere, I completely disagree. We had, until book 5, recieved very small hints about her character from Ron, Fred, George, and Hermione. I may point out that a large majority of fans predicted that what came to be in OotP were Ginny's strongest attributes. I don't believe I'm mistaken in saying that many thought that was what she was truly like. Many of them were H/G shippers, but that's not the point. Personally, that's exactly how I pictured her, and I *DO NOT* see her attributes in Book 5 as "new" but rather "old," I see it as Ginny coming out of her shell in front of Harry.So again, not a new personality, but confidence in her true one you might say.

I was one of them. Everything that jkr put on Ginny on book 5 was foreshadow and put in the first four books.

Just one question Gilyann, where does it in canon if GoF state that Ginny was with Michael Corner or was in 'love'? It does in OoTP I know but at the time the quote was for GoF since OoTP wasn't out yet so I can see your interpretation of the quote after OoTP came out.

Forgive me but I’m a little slow I dind’t quite understand what you meant to ask so I will answer you based on what I think it was. For my point of view jkr is classifying the being in love and after or together in the same category. In GoF Ginny gave up on Harry and got together with him after the Yule Ball. This by Hermione’s words. I clearly see based on what I have seen the quote linked too that she was referering directly to Ron, Hermione and Harry. I do not believe that she was applying this to every person in the HP books. Otherwise if we were to nitpick then even Molly and Arthur would be wrong. I clearly see that she was referering to H/R/Hr. Specially because in the times I have read this interview she links it indirectly and directly to the trio not anyone else.

The only thing we know about Ginny before OotP is that she likes to talk and she has a crush on Harry. Other than that, I don't see anything subtly hinted. Perhaps you would like to post some examples.

Can I try this? If you don’t mind I will leave OoP out. Since you asked 1-4. We know before OoP that Ginny is smart, witty, funny, could keep a secret, was compassionate, learn to accept the reality of her family’s economic condition

Smart: Ever since CoS we know that Ginny is smart. She was able to make the connection between herself the attacks and the diary. She realizes only by her obserbations and what she has heard about Harry that he doesn’t like the publicity in the book store and she defends Harry’s position against Malfoy. She never points at him or act like she did at the end of SS/PS. She clearly understands Harry’s position. All of this with little or hardly talking to Harry.

Funny: CoS Percy’s girlfriend issue, PoA with Harry in that Percy, Penelope thing again, PoA in the table when laughing about the twins discoust over Percy’s Head Boy thing, GoF in the fight table of Bill and Percy, GoF over the twins mess about the store.

Witty: GoF stoping the argument between Bill and her mother over his hair, GoF again with Harry and Ron for making fun of Neville. (they had been rejected by girls they liked)

Keeping secres: well Diary off course, she kept Hermione’s date to the Yule Ball

Honest: she accepted she knew but refuse to say it, she kept her date with Neville even though she could go with Harry; God knows I wouldn’t have kept it.

Compasion: Over the injure of the player in the QWC, bother by Fred and George’s teasing Harry over being the Heir of Slythering. Get well card to Harry the whole point was to let him know that she also knew what it was like when a Dementor got near you.

Like I said before I'm a little slow today so I can’t remember what else I’m missing. Let me know if I indeed miss out something or if something wasn't understood. If I were to include OoP we will have much more and I'm positive I'm missing things from there but I can't remember them off the top of my head right now.

Flawed observation. Hermione *never* denied it. Harry only denied it after Hermione started getting hate-mail. Where is the giggling stuff?

Well in OoP Hermione classified those stories as ‘horrible’ or something like that. (all of them) For me that’s saying that the possibility of her and Harry is awful. After all the first article didn’t portrait her as a bad person. Also Harry started denying it because everyone in the school was talking about the supposse H/K/Hr triangle.

Gily Ann

evaluna

September 6th, 2003, 7:53 pm

Flying Phoenix
Love makes you weak. I take again "Emma" for this because she was through this book always strong and didn't see she was wrong. But as fast as she got she is in love with Knightley she is weak. In a way what let you ask Is Love such a great idea? She see what she did wrong and how right he was. She feels guilty. Knightley is even weak. This scene as they took this walk there you can read how weak they were. Its possible that they get rejected by each other but they don't protect they soul like you normaly do. Its open for to get hurt.

FP: Great post. This love is exactly what I feel will be Harry’s greatest weakness if he fails to overcome his barriers, rejecting that which is given to him and denying his own heart. In particular because it requires great strength to allow oneself to be ‘weak’, or emotionally vulnerable, and this means one more burden for Harry to shoulder. However, failure to do so reinforces his isolation. This path leads to darkness, devastation, and ruin: “Broken down is the city of chaos, shut against entry, every house, that no man may come in…in the city nothing remains but ruin; its gates are battered and desolate” [Isaiah 24] – got this ref from noddwyd’s analogy in prior post, this chapter being that which describes the devastation of the world but yet still with the hope of redemption based on our choices in future.

However, if Harry breaches his defenses and allows love and light to enter the darkness, then he can “meet with joy and gladness, [and] sorrow and mourning will flee” [I 35, deliverance]. By remaining open to love, by accepting and returning love, Harry can gain the intrinsic knowledge of the Infinite Light that will allow him to conquer any odds, overcome any darkness. IF Harry can remain open, that is,which means he must deal with the full brunt of his pain regarding the losses he has suffered to date – an extremely difficult challenge. That is, for me a key aspect of the series revolves around whether Harry can transform this [seemingly] greatest of weaknesses into the greatest of strengths.

noddwyd's analogy]

EDIT: Sirius, I am totally and completely reminded of the Hippogriff symbolism here, as well -- if not accepted and treated with utmost regard and respect, it can cause you terrible harm and destruction.

[and Nia, nice meeting you! ;)]

Oh and re: this item as well...

Fabiana
I think this is the point: Ron realized that Hermione can be good-looking too. And the better: she is his best-friend and really close to him. I’m sure Ron is not interested in Hermione because she’s intelligent, courageous or caring. If this were indeed true, he would have fell for her before the whole “Yule Brawl” incident.

And as a matter of fact, I do have some doubts if he really has feelings for Hermione. In Ootp, he showed the same kind of jealousy towards his sister. I think the whole point about Ron is: he doesn’t accept the girls close to him having a life of their own outside his world. (This would explain why he was pushing Ginny towards Harry, after all Harry is inside Ron’s world).

P.S. – Oh, Harmonians, please, let me sail the HMS Harmony too? I’ve talked to MEM and he said it was okay, but since I haven’t seen him here for a while, would you guys let me in?

Welcome Fabiana, purity of heart and mind + sincere intent to ship H/Hr are all that is required to join the Harmony crew. Well, actually I just threw in that bit about purity of heart & mind, but anyway ;)...We also welcome fellow travellers who may come and go at will, agreeing on some selective points but not all aspects of Harmony planks [haycheng, noddwyd, etc].

Also very good point re: Ron, Yule Ball, and his general possessiveness or misplaced protection toward the women in his sphere. I think there's much to be said for the fact that once Ron realised Hermione was female, not just his mate, then his possessiveness and protectiveness came to the fore just as we saw in OoP with his sister. The problem is that Ron gets nasty, and he overstepped his bounds regarding Hermione's right to make her own decisions. It's not as if her head's not on straight or for some reason she can't be trusted, after all. Given that, it does offer balance to the perspective that Ron has a crush or truly likes Hermione. He may, but perhaps he's just extremely possessive [again, witness Ginny]. However, as far as causing serious friction in future if Hermione and Harry admit to feelings for one another, it [crush vs. possessiveness] may make little difference in Ron's reaction and serious problems may ensue regardless. Just MO.

Cheers!

Sirius83

September 6th, 2003, 8:37 pm

EDIT: Sirius, I am totally and completely reminded of the Hippogriff symbolism here, as well -- if not accepted and treated with utmost regard and respect, it can cause you terrible harm and destruction.

Hey nice catch, that does remind me of the Hippogriff! Perhaps that is why Ron's prediction went along the lines of being trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff? After all, trampled is quite different to simply being run over, trampled suggests he comes off hurt, so it didn't go his way. ;)

DumbledoreTheWise

September 6th, 2003, 8:47 pm

This is a sad imitation of a previous post that the Forum killed. I tried to re-write it, and this time I only included half of what i did last time. my points, therefore, may not be all that clear.
Flat characters are caricatures. They don't show *change.* The don't *develope*. In OotP, we found out Ginny's true personality. We found out how sorts of interesting facts about her, but that's what they are: facts. Most people automatically assume that flat characters are characters that rarely have speaking roles and are rarely mentioned; and Ginny fits this description for the first four books. She was indeed a flat character. My point is, though, flat characters are not always limited to charaters with small roles. A character may have many opportunites to speak, yet still be a flat character. I'm sure you're familiar with many great works of literature such as Pride and Prejudice. I'm also sure you noticed that many of the characters are flat, but they're not necessarily minor characters. In Pride and Prejudice, for example, many of the major characters are flat. Jane and Bingley serve as great examples. They both had a large portion of speaking parts, yet they're still flat characters; they're just there. We know of their disposition and personalities, but that doesn't mean they're round characters.
To be round characters, they must not only have major roles in the novel, but they must move with the plot-line. The only characters that are truly round in Harry Potter are Harry, Hermione, and Ron, Dumbledore and perhaps Neville. The others, such as Molly, Arthur, Fred, George, and the rest of the Order are all caricatures. Together, they form a nice background, but they'll never take center stage.
The only thing we know about Ginny before OotP is that she likes to talk and she has a crush on Harry. Other than that, I don't see anything subtly hinted. Perhaps you would like to post some examples.

Here I'm afraid we just disagree. My point was that whether or not we agree on Ginny being flat in Books 1-4, she simply isn't "flat" anymore, she is round. She is now, in your words developed,changed, etc. She went from the little girl who we didn't know all that much about to a character with some real substance in Book 5. To say is flat would mean that she has not changed in or eyes since he was the little girl tugging at Mrs. Weasley's hand on Platform 9 3/4. That's simply not true. I really do understand your comment about flat characters. I would argue that characters like our dear old Draco is a flat character. He is still the rich, spoiled, nasty kid we me on the train in first year.

DumbledoreTheWise

September 6th, 2003, 8:51 pm

I'm not doubting Ginny's personality as not being *true*, because JKR had written Ginny to be a bold, spunky, fiery Weasley. It would be ridiculous for me to say that Ginny is only "pretending" to act like a wonderwoman when in reality, she's shy and homely. Ludicrous. However, I do think that it is a bit sudden and a tad contrived. JKR could've laid more evidence prior to OotP.
Also, the predictions of the other fans are irrelevant to our discussion.

I'm glad you're not doubting that. My point is that it does not seem to me or to many others that is was sudden and contrived, becasue small hints have been dropped along the way as to the nature of her character. I would love to give you examples, and frankly I can think of some right now. But as of today Books 1-4 are currently loned out to a friend, and I have only Book 5 and the Spanish Version of book 1. :) So I could give you passages, but I would rather be able to DIRECTLY quote the text. Okay, fine, nevermind, I can do a small bit right now. Once again, I do not have my books so this should be kind of interesting. LOL.
1)When first Harry sees Ginny she is shy and is undeniably crushing on him. Her family notices, and lets Harry know that this is not how she usually is, she is usually talkative and outgoing, and they express their surprise at her sudden shift.
2) Over the first four books, we are given instances in which Fred and George or Ron or someone else makes a joke, and the text expressly states Ginny giggling. There are instances of this in Book 3, and slightly more in Book 4. These "hints" as I call them, foreshadow what we see in Book 5, Ginny's sense of humor and in some ways, her similarities to Fred and George. She laughs at their prefect jokes and things like that. She is outside giggling in Book 4 as Charlie and Bill smash the tables into each other. She laughs along with Ron when they come upon the topic of Weasley's Wizard Wheezes, and Hermione is looking stern.We get the impresssion that Ginny is lighthearted and takes more of the Fred and George approach than the, shall we say, Percy approach. Once again, these suspicions are confirmed in Book 5.
3) Over the summer in Book Four at the Burrow, Ginny is seen sitting next to Bill, defending his hair to Molly, calling her mum "old fashioned" and the text implies that Ginny thinks highly of Bill. In Book 5, this is more of less confirmed when talking about Snape and it says " 'Bill doesn't like him either,' said Ginny, as though that settled the matter."
4) There are several instances in the Books 1-4 which imply that Ginny is also caring and thoughful. After giggling (once again!!) and percy having a girlfriend, she tells Fred and George not to tease him, obviously caring about his feelings.She is very concerned about the Basilisk's victims in Book 2, and while that directly involves her, before shee realizes it is she doing the harm, she even reacts sensitively when Fred and george make jokes about it. SHe seems to have asoft spot for Neville, she goes to the dance with him and comes to his defense in front of Harry and Ron in Book 4 and in Book 5, Luna. nEville seeems to return the concern, defending her from the Inquisitorial squad.
5) She shows the Weasley spunk and fiery independence in books 1-4 as well. She is able to shut up both Ron and Harry in Book four when they make commetns about the dance. She does this a lot more often in Book 5. In book 2, we learn that she struggled very hard against Tom Riddle. She only sought help from others when the situation was desperate, showing that she most likely has a lot of pride and independence (echoing Harry anyone?). Riddle himself somments on how hard she struggled, and how she suspected the diary had something to do with it and had the sense to throw it away. In book 5, we see the mark of these characteristics when she wants to help herself up with a broken ankle, trying to ignore Luna's hand.
So, what i'm showing is that it didn't seem contrived to me because of these subtle clues. If you put them together, it was a puzzle leading to the personality that we saw examplified in book 5.

Again, these are mostly flat characters. They're an important part of the plot, but they are just supporting characters. They don't show any real changes. Fudge has always been the timid, suspicious, doubtful Fudge. Again, they're simply characteristics; it does not factor into whether the characters are round or flat.
Actually, when we are first introduced tot Fudge he is a man caught in the Mmiddle of a nasty political situation when the governors "desire" DD's removal. He even defends Dumbledore. Int he beginning of Book three he is describes as surveying Harry rather liek anuncle surveys a favorite nephew. it is only TRULY unitl book 4 that we see the extent of his faults, and even Harry is surprise. he says that he always though of Fudge as kindly, maybe a little blustering, but generally good natured. The suspicious and timid Fudge is not always present.

DumbledoreTheWise

September 6th, 2003, 8:59 pm

[QOUTE]Again, I believe Sirius is a flat character. True, he has a big role in the books, but he is definitely not round. He has always been Sirius. We just found out more about his personality. These are, again, only facts.{/QUOTE]
I would argue that Sirius is round, that his character has been developed since we firt met him. We have learned more about him and we have seen him make changes, even Harry notices.

There may be many uses for Ginny. Foremost, Ginny could be apart of the force that would eventually defeat Voldemort. She is there, along with the other members in the DA.
Furthermore, many characters are there for entertainment; Ginny's personality is oddly similar to Fred and George's; Ginny could be a replacement for Fred and George in Hogwarts. Again, just because a character is there, doesn't mean he/she has to be important.

Agreed. I guess it depends on what you anticipate Ginny's role being/becoming.

I seriously doubt that Harry would evade his best friends and seek comfort with Ginny instead. Afterall, Ginny's possession wasn't the same as Harry's. As far as understanding? Ginny is not competition to Hermione. Ginny may know the feeling of being possessed by Voldemort, but Hermione knows *Harry*. That makes all the difference.
I think Ginny knows Harry too. Not necessarily as well as hermione, but she knows him atleast as well as Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. I don't think it's fair to say that Ginny still think of Harry as the Boy Who Lived.

evaluna

September 6th, 2003, 9:00 pm

Sirius83
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by evaluna
EDIT: Sirius, I am totally and completely reminded of the Hippogriff symbolism here, as well -- if not accepted and treated with utmost regard and respect, it can cause you terrible harm and destruction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey nice catch, that does remind me of the Hippogriff! Perhaps that is why Ron's prediction went along the lines of being trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff? After all, trampled is quite different to simply being run over, trampled suggests he comes off hurt, so it didn't go his way.

Sirius, you're right! Here I was fearing for Harry and that he'd better not deny his heart, but you are correct in that canon already suggests repeatedly that Ron for certain will come off hurt...and the indicators are fairly clear that Hermione will be the one that got away whilst leaving Ron to lick his wounds. Now let's hope Harry doesn't go out of his way to bring the same fate on himself by rejecting Hermione's love! Per noddwyd, 'it's Venus, not Mars, stupid'! :banghead: ...and finally I get to use that icon!

Cheers!

DumbledoreTheWise

September 6th, 2003, 9:14 pm

I'm SO sorry guys!
Sorry for all the crazy posts, there are more I'm trying to make this better, but I have been working with it all day and have NEVER had a problem like this before.

DumbledoreTheWise

September 6th, 2003, 9:26 pm

Does true love have to revolve around jealousy?
Absolutely not. But the fact that Harry is indiffernet about Krum is telling to me. No response whatsoever. it's like he couldn't care less. Jealousy,if nothing else, atleast indicates there is an interest in the outcome of the relationship.
Nope, merely firm dislike; re-read the Post-kiss scene. Hermione's reaction is very telling.
Yes, very telling. She tells him what to do, what he should have done, and how to best handle the situation given Cho's emotional state. She could easily have taken Harry's side, and said "You're right Harry, who does cry when you're kissing them? Dump her. What a loser." Instead she comes to Cho's defense, and tells him how to best handle the situation in the future.Yes, very telling indeed.

DumbledoreTheWise

September 6th, 2003, 9:28 pm

Flawed observation. Hermione *never* denied it. Harry only denied it after Hermione started getting hate-mail. Where is the giggling stuff?
Harry denied it to atlest three people, Mrs. Weasley, Krum, and Cho. Harry laughed at Cho, was surprised at Krum, and Hermione giggled at the appearance of the article.
I believe you misinterpreted my point. I said she would never love the "Boy Who Lived", because Hermione is not superficial. When she comes to love Harry, it would be pure, true, and sincere. It would be based on Harry's person, not his title.Yes, it would be perfectly logical to fall in love with the "hero", the "great guy that most girls would love to have", but Harry is not a trophy; he doesn't want attention; he doesn't want to be a hero; he doesn't want to be this "great guy that girls want" He only wants to be Harry, just Harry, and Hermione understands this. It is insulting that other shippers believe that the only logical reason why Hermione would fall for Harry is because of his money, fame, and scar.
I did not say that Hermione woudl fall in love with his fame, money or scar.To say so drastically underestimates Hermione's character. I meant that she knows him very well and his true personality is very intriguing also. So extraordinary yet sooo normal, so caring and all the best things you look for in a person.

DumbledoreTheWise

September 6th, 2003, 9:29 pm

..But instead, she falls for Ron, who argues with her constantly, over the most trivial things--who insults and teases her for believing in freedom and social equality---who accuses her unreasonably of betraying their best friend---who discarded her friendship for a rat he didn't care about---who doesn't display any respect to her----who doesn't appreciate her for who she is, except when it comes to copying homework---who yells at her without reason---who screams at her without cause---who sends her crying into the girls dormitory more than anyone else ever did.
Yes, it would be a good story; it is dramatic, it is angsty; it would be an interesting read, yet it would also be a good tragedy.

Okay you struck a nerve with me. It really really really really bothers me when people downpaly Ron's importance or dismiss him as an abusive, easily angered, jealous and stupid person who is undeserving of Hermione's friendship. it's simply not true.Hermione and Ron have a substantial, deep, and meaningful relationship, even if not all H/Hr shippers agree. They risk their lives for each other, they always ultimately overcome their differences when it truly matters, they hang out, they talk, they have fun together.While they have differences of opinion, they still care about each other deeply. Examples of this can be the Scabbers fight. It really affected both of them and showed that they needed each other. my point is that they are connected by more than Harry. They have a relationship too, they are not just mutual friends of Harry's. It isthe sight of Hermione's empty chair that stiffens Ron's resolve to go into the forest in Book 2. Hermione is genuinely concerned about Ron in Books 1, 3, and 4, and even defends Ron to Harry during the Triwizard fight when harry wants to strangle him. There is a substantial relationship there and to say that they are unable to overcoe trivial differences seriously undermines text. I simply don't have time to go into all that now, but I hop I got my point across.

argog24

September 6th, 2003, 9:32 pm

A few things I feel need pointing out. Now if Rowling went the way of the R/hr or H/G shippers, we as the readers really wouldn't have any choice but to accept it. But I myself would not understand it because-
Rowling had some very big oportunities in this book for forshadowing and she past MANY, MANY of them over.
She could have shown Ron really rising up to his position as prefect (i.e dealing with Gred and Feorge)and Hermy respecting him for it. She didn't,and she chose to show hermione getting annoyed at him because of this. She also chose to have Hermione leave during Ron's big game, which I thought was rather symbolic. She could have chosen to have all three of them go with Hagrid into the forest and given Ron the chance to protect hermy, she didn't. She could have had Ron and Hermione pair off at the dept of mysterys and working well together against the d.e's, she didn't. She could have rearanged a few things to show Rons reaction to Hermy being hurt again, she didn't. And this will probably sound odd but instead of having Ron babbling about hermy while in his seemingly concussed state she has him rambling about Luna instead. What she did choose to show was Hermione showing again and again that Harry seems to be her first priority. She chose to show that instead of Harry playcating his love intereast, he sticks up for his "Darling Hermione", the last nail in the Harry/Cho coffin. She chose to show Hermy becoming a part of Harrys subconsious. (I beg pardon for any bad spelling.) She chose to show Hermy coming up with the idea that got Harry through a very difficult year, and she also chose to show Ron not supporting her till he was sure Harry Wouldn't get mad again. As for H/G I have a few problems there too.
Instead of showing Ginny finding a way to tell Harry things he doesn't want to hear in a more relaxed and understanding way than Hermy She chose to show her in a very Ron-esqe fashion following him blindly without really stopping to question him or think for herself, which (I think most of us can agree after this book) is not what he needs. She did however choose to show Hermy and Harry having a few almost couple- like spats and arguments and learning to compramise a little.
Many people think that Hermys dragging Harry out of his room at Christmas was overblown by H/H shippers. I would just like to add that Rowling had every opportunity under the sun to make this Ginnys big chance at getting connected with Harry, OR to show Sirius talking to him and making him come out of the room to really add a sting to his death OR She could have chosen this time to show how Mrs. Weasly really cares for Harry OR dare I say this could have easily been Harry and Ron's big opportunity to show us readers how they re-connected after GoF. Instead she chose to drag Hermione from vacation to do the job. This may easily seem un-important to people but I think it may be Rowling yet again showing us that Harry is her first priority in life. And while we are on the subject ,I still can't imagine Ron reacting well to Hermy always running to help Harry. Even if he comes along most of the time. He has had enough self-esteem issues and I don't think his brilliant girlfriend always running to help another guy will help things. Even if that other guy happens to be his best friend.
I can however see how Ginny could be good for Nevilles self-image, and I can see her having a growing respect for him after OotP. I can see how Luna looking up to Ron and admiring him a little would do wounders for him. I can also see how Harry/Hermoine/Neville being paired of at the DoM could be symbolic of how these two people will become more important to him than ever.Or something that kind of scares me is that 2/3 of that trio(in a way) lost a parent thanks to Bellatrix, I wounder if this could also be foreshadowing. I can also see how Hermione being able to drag Harry out to join the rest of the world could easily be very important, now more than ever.
Thats my two cents, thank you for reading.

Sirius83

September 6th, 2003, 9:43 pm

Er...DumbledoreTheWise...the moderators take a very dim view of double posting, far less for thriple and quad posting. This thread creates enough problems for the moderators as it is, in future please use the edit button when you need to add anything to your posts.

dolly

September 6th, 2003, 9:45 pm

well....i think that Harry and Hermione will go out and Ron will get jealous so he will go out with Luna.But....o i dunno. Because if Ron and Hermione go out thats what everyone will be expecting so she might do something different? o well well soon find out!!
Dolly*

Fabiana

September 6th, 2003, 9:53 pm

Hi,

Though you addressed your reply in the context of the Yule Ball, I was in fact asking a more general question about why the H/Hr fandom choose to represent Ron's feelings for Hermione as being based solely on shallow physical attraction.

Sorry about that. But it would be hard to base my reply in all the books since the Yule Brawl was supposedly when he started having feelings for her. Before that, they only bickered.

No!! No, no, no, no, no. JK clearly makes a specific point of not alluding to Ron's reaction to Hermione's stunning appearance at the ball. In fact she goes out of her way to let us see how Ron does not give as much as a second glance at her apperance. Furthermore she clarifies the situation by depicting Rons' 'moment of realisation' before Hermione appears at her beautiful best.

Well, I respectfully disagree here. And I’m going to use a quote R/H shippers love, “this is all Harry’s POV”. We really don’t know how Ron reacted the first time he saw her at the ball, we just know that he walked past her without looking at her. My interpretation is: Ron had seen her, felt insulted by her looks and by her company and then walked past her without looking at her. But we really don’t know.

And about the moment of realization… undoubtedly it was before the Yule Ball, but again, I think that what triggered his horrible behavior was the way she looked. There this a saying in Brazil… “No one kicks a dead dog”. I hope you can get it… (If not, I'll be happy to explain it later) ;).

If she were just good-old-plain Hermione, I doubt he would be so harsh on her. Perhaps, we would see something like: “Ron walked past Hermione looking magnificent. He was really proud that Padma was one of the prettiest girls there.”

(But this is just speculation - You said it yourself, this is what this thread is all about).

I think that it is therefore fair to conclude from the fact that Ron is not swayed one way or another by Hermione's physical appearance, that his crush, if you wish to call it that, is based on something else. To summarise - my answer to my own question: Ron has feelings for Hermione. His feelings aren't based on her looks as he is not bothered about that either way. His feelings for Hermione arise out of the fact that he actually likes her as a person. Thus, IMO, the argument that R/Hr should/will never happen because it's based on Ron's shallowness in terms of looks, becomes null and void; thereby eliminating a central plank of the anti-R/Hr viewpoint.

I’m sorry, but I think you snipped the most important part of my post. All put it here again:

Ron realized that Hermione can be good-looking too. And the better: she is his best-friend and really close to him. I’m sure Ron is not interested in Hermione because she’s intelligent, courageous or caring. If this were indeed true, he would have fell for her before the whole “Yule Brawl” incident.

Oh I don't know. My reason against R/Hr is Ron's treatment of Hermione, not that he's shallow about her. He's shallow about girls in general, but while he may like Hermione for who she is, it's his treatment of her that really bothers me.

I just want to agree. If the question is: why don’t you ship R/H, my answer would be: he treats her really bad, they don’t respect each other and I have some great doubts whether she admires him. I think these items are vital to any healthy relationship.

evaluna

September 6th, 2003, 10:06 pm

DumbledoretheWise
------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Polaris15
Flawed observation. Hermione *never* denied it. Harry only denied it after Hermione started getting hate-mail. Where is the giggling stuff?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Harry denied it to atlest three people, Mrs. Weasley, Krum, and Cho. Harry laughed at Cho, was surprised at Krum, and Hermione giggled at the appearance of the article.

-Nonetheless, all those incidents did occur after the hate mail had begun to arrive.

-My impression was that in OoP, Harry laughed in relief at finally understanding the source of what he saw as Cho’s otherwise inexplicable behaviour, not because the thought of he and Hermione per se was laughable. A fine but perhaps important distinction.

-I’m also going from memory, but re: Skeeter’s article, I believe Hermione was taking it on the chin more stoically and with disdain toward Skeeter, rather than laughing. I thought she giggled only in ref to Ron’s ‘scarlet woman’ comment.

-Harry was surprised at Krum’s questions for many reasons, but note he was not surprised at anyone else making the assumption [especially post-Skeeter article] that they were together. Rather, it was because of Krum’s stature in the wizarding world that Harry was simply surprised that Krum was even talking to Harry about anything relating to Harry’s personal life [quite endearing really, that Harry would still retain this innocent quality despite the fame and such foisted upon him].

-Harry on purpose volunteered the information to Mrs Weasley because her attitude toward Hermione was cold and because he’d previously witnessed Hermione’s sad reaction to Mrs. Weasley’s candy sparrow’s egg sent at Easter in protest over the Witch Weekly article on Hermione, whilst he and Ron received candy Dragon’s eggs.

Fabiana good points & abraços de nos [your HMS Harmony shipmates]! Err...yeah, we get it re: dog ;) !!!

Aragog24, nice post, as well!

dolly, nice to see you and I really liked your posts re: 'Sirius is fit and really cared about Harry' from last thread! :love: Heh heh.

Cheers!

Emma

September 6th, 2003, 10:52 pm

Dumbledorethewise: Please refrain from "chain" posting. Rules state No Double posting, You are double, triple and more.

You can use the edit option to edit your posts.

Thank you.

Emma

argog24

September 6th, 2003, 10:59 pm

Thanks Evaluna, you too.

Linnea

September 6th, 2003, 11:13 pm

I have a very strong feeling that Ron and Hermione will become (cough cough) a little more than just friends. As for Harry, I see him either dating Ginny or a girl we havent met yet. However, Ginny may be completely over Harry (although she said she had given up on him; not that she no longer liked him). Another possible combination is Ron and Luna, as well as Draco and Ginny (hey, it would be interesting, for sure!!).

Earendil

September 6th, 2003, 11:32 pm

Ron clearly carries a torch for Hermione, on that point I'm sure we can all agree.

1. Is it suggested or alluded to in canon that Ron is physically attracted to Hermione?

If you answer 'Yes':

2. Where is it?

Alternatively, if you answer 'No':

3. In the absence of Ron being physically attracted to Hermione what other explanation is there for his feelings towards her?

I'm glad you asked this question, Daveydee. Simply put, I believe that Ron's feelings toward Hermione stem from possessiveness rather than affection--or, if you like, objectifcation rather than true love.

It sounds callous when I put it the second way, but my personal opinion is that Ron's feelings for Hermione are not entirely pure. If they were, we would see evidence of him learning to genuinely care about her, to be there for her when she needs him, and to respect her opinions and beliefs even when he doesn't agree with them. Instead, we see him being clearly and overtly jealous of her other potential love interest, making fun of her for being truly passionate about something, and continuing to bicker senselessly with her rather than attempt to bury the hatchet in light of his apparently more mature feelings for her. Which brings me back to the objectification: Ron needs to be admired, esteemed, and acclaimed. He needs to have something to call his own, to set him apart from his brothers and their accomplishments. I honestly cannot fathom how a teenager who has been shunted into the background and overshadowed by his brothers all his life will not view a very close female friend as a potential love interest, in the very prime of his hormonal development. In Ron's mind, there is nothing that he can gain that will surpass his brothers, other than to have a girl on his arm. Of course, this is bosh, as we've seen in OotP--Ron can make important accomplishments, without having to win himself a trophy girlfriend. Unfortunately, his actions toward Hermione and his treatment of her indicate that he has subconsciously been viewing her as a conquest, as someone whom he can conquer and therefore assert his "power".

Mad I

September 6th, 2003, 11:49 pm

Originally Posted By: Earendil
It sounds callous when I put it the second way, but my personal opinion is that Ron's feelings for Hermione are not entirely pure. If they were, we would see evidence of him learning to genuinely care about her, to be there for her when she needs him, and to respect her opinions and beliefs even when he doesn't agree with themI agree with this view because I just don't see Ron respecting Hermione, even in simple matters like S.P.E.W which while being weird and different was started by one of his best friends and the least that he could do was offer his help even if he thinks that he is going to be made fun of. He disrespect for Hermione has lead her, in my opinion, to slightly lose faith in him in minor matters (obviously she still is willing to depend on him in major situations).

haycheng

September 7th, 2003, 12:09 am

To Daveydee
First I should answer your question:
Ron clearly carries a torch for Hermione, on that point I'm sure we can all agree.

1. Is it suggested or alluded to in canon that Ron is physically attracted to Hermione?

If you answer 'Yes':

2. Where is it?
I can not say I can agree with the first question complete. I have about 90% believing that Ron is actually have a crush on Hermione. The moment I trustly convicted is when Ron ask Harry what so good about Krum. That means he is jealous of Krum. However, it could still mean he is just jealous because everyone like Krum(including Harry, he find Krum Ok) By the way, 90% is very high for me. So I guess you can consider I am answer with a "yes"
2)Where is it?
I do not have my GOF. My dad took it all the way back to Hong Kong. I generally remember I consider Ron has feeling at the yale Ball. If he is not, why didnt he ask Hermione before the ball anyway? I am very confuse without my GOF. I can not offer better answer until my GOF is back.

Ron has feelings for Hermione. His feelings aren't based on her looks as he is not bothered about that either way. His feelings for Hermione arise out of the fact that he actually likes her as a person.
:huh: cannon evident please. I am totally lose here. Other than jealous, bricking or please hermione when he need homework help, I can not see any more interaction. (it is over simplify of course, no hard feeling intented). I just can not see the fact that he actually like her.

To GilyAnn

I trully feel that is not about him understanding Hermione is simply about not hearing about her. Ever since SS/PS Harry has some issues with the way Hermione handle things. (when he tells Ron that he sounds like Hermione). I also don’t think that he accepts her comments otherwise he would follow her advice more often. I also don’t think that he fells guilty otherwise he also would have felt about all the times that he yelled at her and reduced her to tears.
lol,GilyAnn. you already answer my question and I think I also offer a reply(a very meanless one, I think it is about agree to disagree thing). He accepts her comment sometime. As for not follow her advice, he usually feel guilt about it. I really do not want to debate the consicous idea again. Just leave it as it is now.

GilyAnn

September 7th, 2003, 12:55 am

It sounds callous when I put it the second way, but my personal opinion is that Ron's feelings for Hermione are not entirely pure. If they were, we would see evidence of him learning to genuinely care about her, to be there for her when she needs him, and to respect her opinions and beliefs even when he doesn't agree with them. Instead, we see him being clearly and overtly jealous of her other potential love interest, making fun of her for being truly passionate about something, and continuing to bicker senselessly with her rather than attempt to bury the hatchet in light of his apparently more mature feelings for her. Which brings me back to the objectification: Ron needs to be admired, esteemed, and acclaimed. He needs to have something to call his own, to set him apart from his brothers and their accomplishments. I honestly cannot fathom how a teenager who has been shunted into the background and overshadowed by his brothers all his life will not view a very close female friend as a potential love interest, in the very prime of his hormonal development. In Ron's mind, there is nothing that he can gain that will surpass his brothers, other than to have a girl on his arm. Of course, this is bosh, as we've seen in OotP--Ron can make important accomplishments, without having to win himself a trophy girlfriend. Unfortunately, his actions toward Hermione and his treatment of her indicate that he has subconsciously been viewing her as a conquest, as someone whom he can conquer and therefore assert his "power".

Pardon me for bargin in but I disagree so much that I wanted to offer my opinion on this. I would honestly be happy if the trio would end up friends. But I don't see this any time happening.

Ron has shown genuinly caring for Hermione:

Forgive for not offering page references. If you trully needed I will look for them but right now I don't have the books here.

In GoF Ron was the first to pipe out that Hermione needed to be carefull with those hate letters she was getting.

In GoF Ron also warned Hermione not to mess with Rita something that *I* feel it will come back to haunt Hermione. Not to mention that it did backfire at the moment because Rita wrote all those stories.

In PoA he was the one that was aware that Hermione couldn't be taking classes at the same time.

In CoS he was also one of the first ones to ask if Hermione was ok and upon seeing Hermione's empty chair h decided to go to the forbidden forest even though he was dead afraid of spiders.

Ron always praises Hermione on how high her grades are. Ron trully cares for Hermione otherwise he wouldn't be friends with her and instead avoid her alltoguether. Ron is also the first one to notice the first one on Hermione's appearance.

One thing that Ron learned in OoP was to be his own even when he didn't agree. He never went on any rampangin row with Hermione when she was disagreeing with Harry about seeing Sirius. This clearly because he saw both sides of the story and since he didn't want to hurt either side feelings or he felt torn between the two of them he didn't offer his opinion. You have to admit that it was a very difficult standing the one he had. he had to pick a side between his two best friends. It was very hard. No matter what he went he was going to be wrong. If he sided with Harry. Harry was going to be mad at him and Ron did seem to trust Harry's judgement over the issue not to mention that he felt it was Harry's desission. Sometimes it's best not to say anything when you don't have anything nice to say. If he sided with Hermione there were most likely to have a row something that he was trying to avoid in this story.

In OoP Ron got some recognition and he wasn't selfish or anything like that. On the contrary he seemed to enyoy having done something on his ow and for his merits rather than for the recognition. So I don't see that he sees Hermione as a sort of price to win.

Gily Ann

Perdita

September 7th, 2003, 1:32 am

I'm glad you asked this question, Daveydee. Simply put, I believe that Ron's feelings toward Hermione stem from possessiveness rather than affection--or, if you like, objectifcation rather than true love.

Possessiveness. I completely agree with you, Earendil.

In GOF, Ron was jealous of Krum only after he found out that Krum had become Hermione’s boyfriend, regardless of how serious their relationship was or how long it lasted. Krum and Hermione shared something that she did not share with Ron, and I think that is what made him so angry at Hermione.

In OOTP, the book where Ron was supposed to have undergone this tremendous character growth and become more mature, we see the same things unfold. Ron view’s Hermione’s S.P.E.W. campaign with contempt and he continues to argue with Hermione instead of trying to understand her.

Again, we see Ron showing signs of jealousy towards Krum.

It seems as though Ron doesn’t really care about what Hermione is thinking until he sees her pouring her heart out to Krum in her novel of a letter. Again, Ron does not seem to show interest in Hermione until he senses that she is becoming emotionally attached to another boy.

Look at the rest of the novel. At the end, after he helped Gryffindor to win the House Cup, and they were sitting by the lake and Ron was describing the game to them, the text says that he was trying to catch the attention of the Hufflepuff girls nearby. Why not use this opportunity to attract Hermione if he is so seriously in love with her?

OOTP, ch 31 OWLs

…he concluded modestly, sweeping his hair back quite unneessarily so tha *** looked interestingly windswept and glancing around to see whether the people nearest to them – a bunch of gossiping third-year Hufflepuffs – had heard him.

This is similar behaviour to the scene from GOF, after the Second Task when he was in the common room, telling his version of the events under the lake, and spicing it up increasingly with every telling, just so that he can gain the admiration of those around him.

I’m not saying that this is a bad quality of Ron’s. The point is that from GOF to OOTP, there isn’t that much difference in his behaviour towards building his image, as well as his treatment of Hermione. In both novels, he only shows jealousy when he sees that Hermione is sharing something with Krum that she is not sharing with him. He feels that she is giving away a part of herself to another boy, and that is what bothers him. He is not so much interested in what she is thinking or what she is feeling. All he is interested in is why she would choose to share something with another boy instead of sharing it with him.

Possessiveness.

----
Thanks for the replies Flying Phoenix, Earendil, Prongs, Sr. and Evaluna.

Auror Fett

September 7th, 2003, 1:36 am

Well,pardon me,but also Harry has shown genuine care for Hermione. It's been shown in, umm, I don't know, ALL FIVE BOOKS SO FAR! When you say Ron cares for Hermione, you should also say Harry because Harry has shown just as much, if not more care for her. It seems that Ron can be real insulting to Hermione, like when he commented on her elf hats, which she worked really hard on, looking like 'wolly bladders'. Or when he got mad at her for going out with Krum. Yes, Ron does respect Hermione most of the time, but sometimes he can be a big jerk.

GryffindorGal

September 7th, 2003, 1:44 am

P.S. – Oh, Harmonians, please, let me sail the HMS Harmony too? I’ve talked to MEM and he said it was okay, but since I haven’t seen him here for a while, would you guys let me in?

Welcome Aboard :welcome: . <lowering gang plank>. Free wet bar (don't mind the drunk in the corner. He's harmless :-D)

Mad Eye Mike

September 7th, 2003, 2:27 am

Oh, Harmonians, please, let me sail the HMS Harmony too? I’ve talked to MEM and he said it was okay, but since I haven’t seen him here for a while, would you guys let me in?

Oh I'm still very much around. :evil: Welcome aboard the Harmony Fabiana.

haycheng

September 7th, 2003, 2:42 am

To GilyAnn
I know you have constant raise the fact that Ron never voice his opinion as mature. IMHO, i have to diagree here. Those are major discussion they are having, it is important for Ron to vocie his opinion. It may casuse a major arguement, but I rather see them talk it through then seeing Ron silent. To me, a friend is a person who will hit my head with a rock, when he believe I am going to fall into a pit.

Just to voice my opinion here, I know we have been there and done this. you do not need to reply.

Narami

September 7th, 2003, 2:43 am

I'm going to but in here but if I see this statement again I'll scream:
Has it occured to you that what may be more telling is that Harry has known Hermione pretty well for five years and STILL isn't interested in her???
When Harry & Hermione met they were 11. 11!! They didn't care about boys and girls and kissing was probable ew for them. Those 5 years where then, not dedicated to be interested in anyone but on more important things, like Harry's new life as a famous wizard and such. They are maturing, about now, give them some time to grow!
And
DumbledoreTheWise
But the fact that Harry is indiffernet about Krum is telling to me. No response whatsoever.it's like he couldn't care less.
But Harry did care, there are many indications in that scene thathe was very aware of how Hermione looked, were Hermione was and what she was doing at all times. The fact that he didn't attacked Krum doesn't mean that he couldn't care less.:whistle:
Instead she comes to Cho's defense, and tells him how to best handle the situation in the future.
And in my opinion she played the cards much in her favor too. That gives her a lot of points in Harry's view, makes him see her more ... that she understands him and helps him... ;)
It really really really really bothers me when people downpaly Ron's importance or dismiss him as an abusive, easily angered, jealous and stupid person who is undeserving of Hermione's friendship.

I completly agree with you there. Don't downplay Ron, and Ron is not stupid. :no: I like Ron very much, not to be with Hermione but certainly to be one very good and important friend to her and Harry, specially Harry. He should find a great great and pretty girl.;)

Polaris15

September 7th, 2003, 2:46 am

Here I'm afraid we just disagree. My point was that whether or not we agree on Ginny being flat in Books 1-4, she simply isn't "flat" anymore, she is round. She is now, in your words developed,changed, etc. She went from the little girl who we didn't know all that much about to a character with some real substance in Book 5. To say is flat would mean that she has not changed in or eyes since he was the little girl tugging at Mrs. Weasley's hand on Platform 9 3/4. That's simply not true. I really do understand your comment about flat characters. I would argue that characters like our dear old Draco is a flat character. He is still the rich, spoiled, nasty kid we me on the train in first year.

You misunderstood me perhaps on my definition of round characters and flat. Someone who is round has to be linked to the plot-line. Someone who we can’t do without. Someone who is constantly changing and growing the in reader’s eyes. Someone who isn’t just there, but who moves along with the story and who, the reader, feel like he is standing next to the character all along. There is a big difference between showing one’s character and developing one’s character. Merely showing the personality of a character is not considered as developing the character. Developing a character is very difficult; not only does the writer have to brainstorm all the nit-picky details, but the author also has to find a way to communicate with the reader and actually show the gradual changes and steps. It has to be a consistent movement, not a random block here and there. Again, it is gradual. Oh yes BTW, I do believe Draco is a flat character. He shows no development or change. He is just--there.

I'm glad you're not doubting that. My point is that it does not seem to me or to many others that is was sudden and contrived, becasue small hints have been dropped along the way as to the nature of her character. I would love to give you examples, and frankly I can think of some right now. 1)When first Harry sees Ginny she is shy and is undeniably crushing on him. Her family notices, and lets Harry know that this is not how she usually is, she is usually talkative and outgoing, and they express their surprise at her sudden shift.

What they said was that she “never shuts up”. Talkative and chatty, yes, but outgoing? No evidence. We never actually seen Ginny interacting with a friend.

2) Over the first four books, we are given instances in which Fred and George or Ron or someone else makes a joke, and the text expressly states Ginny giggling.

Someone makes a joke-----we giggle----how does this reflect our character? EVERYONE giggles at jokes; even Hermione. Ginny and Hermione are nothing alike are they.

There are instances of this in Book 3, and slightly more in Book 4. These "hints" as I call them, foreshadow what we see in Book 5, Ginny's sense of humor and in some ways, her similarities to Fred and George.

Can you give an example where it states between books 1—4 that Ginny acts like Fred and George? I seem to remember a couple of instances where she gets annoyed with them.

She laughs at their prefect jokes and things like that.
Again, jokes are meant to be funny.

She is outside giggling in Book 4 as Charlie and Bill smash the tables into each other.

Giggling at smashing tables does not indicate whatsoever about one’s character.

She laughs along with Ron when they come upon the topic of Weasley's Wizard Wheezes, and Hermione is looking stern.

So she is not Hermione; we all somehow knew that before OotP. Again, this doesn’t display Ginny’s character.

We get the impresssion that Ginny is lighthearted and takes more of the Fred and George approach than the, shall we say, Percy approach. Once again, these suspicions are confirmed in Book 5.

Really? I seem to find instances where she doesn’t find George and Fred funny at all. In CoS, for example, Fred and George took turns trying to cheer her up by dressing up with boils and fur. Ginny seemed to find that extremely annoying. She didn’t agree with their sense of humor then, did she.

3) Over the summer in Book Four at the Burrow, Ginny is seen sitting next to Bill, defending his hair to Molly, calling her mum "old fashioned" and the text implies that Ginny thinks highly of Bill. In Book 5, this is more of less confirmed when talking about Snape and it says " 'Bill doesn't like him either,' said Ginny, as though that settled the matter."

She looks up to her older brother; again, this isn’t a unique characteristic of Ginny’s; most little sisters do look up to their older siblings. Unless you get the squabbling types who act like Ron and Hermione, but then again, that is a whole other thread.

4) There are several instances in the Books 1-4 which imply that Ginny is also caring and thoughful. After giggling (once again!!) and percy having a girlfriend, she tells Fred and George not to tease him, obviously caring about his feelings.

Once again, she admires her older siblings. Percy, back then, wasn’t evil like he is now, so it is reasonable to assume that she looked up to him.

She is very concerned about the Basilisk's victims in Book 2, and while that directly involves her, before shee realizes it is she doing the harm, she even reacts sensitively when Fred and george make jokes about it.

Wouldn’t you say that all the students and teachers at Hogwarts were “concerned” about the Basilisk’s victims? Except the Slytherins of course. As far as her reacting sensitively to Fred's and George's jokes, we all know the reason for it don't we.

SHe seems to have asoft spot for Neville, she goes to the dance with him and comes to his defense in front of Harry and Ron in Book 4 and in Book 5, Luna.

Harry and Ron were making fun of her date to the ball; you’d think she would say something about it. After Ron made his suggestion about going to the ball with Harry, she looked extremely miserable when she told them that she had already said yes to Neville. Not too much of a soft spot is there. Perhaps after the ball, Ginny began to really understand Neville and like him as a friend; but then again, we don’t know do we. Why? Because JKR never made the effort to show us that.

nEville seeems to return the concern, defending her from the Inquisitorial squad.

Neville rocks. What more can I say?

5) She shows the Weasley spunk and fiery independence in books 1-4 as well. She is able to shut up both Ron and Harry in Book four when they make commetns about the dance.

Actually, it wasn’t her attitude that shut Ron and Harry up, but her reminder of their dateless status. Here’s the quote.

“…Ha! As if! She just didn’t want to go with Neville…I mean who would?”
“Don’t!” said Ginny, annoyed. “Don’t laugh---”
Just then Hermione climbed through the portrait hole.
“why weren’t you two at dinner/’ she said, coming over to join them
“because---oh shut up laughing, you two—because they’ve both just been turned down by girls they asked to the ball!” said Ginny. (399)

You see; fiery Ginny had to tell them three times to shut up before they finally did...such a sharp contrast to book five when she suddenly became "coolly".

In book 2, we learn that she struggled very hard against Tom Riddle. She only sought help from others when the situation was desperate, showing that she most likely has a lot of pride and independence (echoing Harry anyone?).

The only thing she proved to echo Harry was his stupidity. She had been told that by Mr. Weasley never to trust anything that can think for itself. Harry, on the other hand, was totally clueless about wizarding items. To say she was independent is to avoid cannon. She was holding Mrs. Weasley’s hand in King Cross in SS/PS. In CoS, she was again, an image of a little girl when she ran away from Malfoy when he teased her about the Singing Valentine. In GoF, she was holding Fred’s hand when they were running away from the death-eaters after the QWC. As far as pride, we have never seen any incident where she had to defend her own pride prior to OotP. So it was your assumption.

Riddle himself somments on how hard she struggled, and how she suspected the diary had something to do with it and had the sense to throw it away.

Sense? Throwing away Riddle’s diary in Moaning Mrytle’s bathroom does not show sense; it shows stupidity (not bashing Ginny of course) If she suspects something to be dangerous, shouldn’t she have notified Dumbledore? Shouldn’t she at least tell her parents? Instead, she chose the dumbest idea of all; chuck it. She was born into a magical family. She isn’t a muggle. She should have “had the sense” to realize that magical items are not going to just go away or be destroyed that easily. It certainly doesn’t show sense or logic for that matter.

In book 5, we see the mark of these characteristics when she wants to help herself up with a broken ankle, trying to ignore Luna's hand.

We are discussing Ginny’s characterization before OotP; anything that happens in OotP is irrelevant to our discussion.

So, what i'm showing is that it didn't seem contrived to me because of these subtle clues. If you put them together, it was a puzzle leading to the personality that we saw examplified in book 5.

What you were showing were general characteristics that doesn’t reflect Ginny’s true character in any way. What you were showing were trivial things that any normal person would do in Ginny’s situation, specifically, laughing at jokes. Really, laughing shouldn’t be considered as a unique characteristic; or there would be a whole lot of mournful people in the world.

Actually, when we are first introduced tot Fudge he is a man caught in the Mmiddle of a nasty political situation when the governors "desire" DD's removal. He even defends Dumbledore.

Um. No? Fudge was first described as a substitute to Dumbledore. Everyone wanted Dumbledore to be MoM, but DD refused because he liked Hogwarts too much; so Fudge got the position, but Fudge was described to owl Dumbledore every morning to ask for advice.

Int he beginning of Book three he is describes as surveying Harry rather liek anuncle surveys a favorite nephew. it is only TRULY unitl book 4 that we see the extent of his faults, and even Harry is surprise.

Um not exactly. Near the end of PoA, Fudge displayed his stubbornness in executing Buckbeak; in the end of PoA, Fudge again displayed his distrusting nature when he refused to believe Snape’s story about Harry.

he says that he always though of Fudge as kindly, maybe a little blustering, but generally good natured. The suspicious and timid Fudge is not always present.

Fudge may not always be suspicious or timid, but JKR had displayed his timid and suspicious nature. A person may not always be smiling, but that doesn’t mean the person isn’t happy.

I think Ginny knows Harry too. Not necessarily as well as hermione, but she knows him atleast as well as Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. I don't think it's fair to say that Ginny still think of Harry as the Boy Who Lived.

The word “still” is significant. Ginny once thought of Harry as the “Boy who Lived” didn’t she. Hermione didn’t. That says a lot about the two different characters.

Absolutely not. But the fact that Harry is indiffernet about Krum is telling to me. No response whatsoever. it's like he couldn't care less. Jealousy,if nothing else, atleast indicates there is an interest in the outcome of the relationship.

No it doesn’t; jealousy only reflects one’s own insecurities. Apparently, Harry had nothing to be jealous of; he is already confident about his relationship with Hermione.

Yes, very telling. She tells him what to do, what he should have done, and how to best handle the situation given Cho's emotional state.

Yet she was also vague, distant, dignified, business-like, brisk and frowning.

She could easily have taken Harry's side, and said "You're right Harry, who does cry when you're kissing them? Dump her. What a loser."

She could have said that, but she wouldn’t be Hermione, now, would she.

Instead she comes to Cho's defense, and tells him how to best handle the situation in the future.Yes, very telling indeed.

Instead she comes to Harry’s rescue. She gave him advice and had a heart-to-heart. She wants Harry to be happy. Yes, it is very telling; it just shows how much Hermione cares for Harry.

Harry denied it to atlest three people, Mrs. Weasley, Krum, and Cho. Harry laughed at Cho, was surprised at Krum, and Hermione giggled at the appearance of the article.

Mrs. Weasley: She was being cold to Hermione and sent her a chicken egg-sized Easter egg. Harry explained to her that they weren’t boyfriends and girlfriends, then Mrs. Weasley warmed up to Hermione. Harry was looking out for Hermione. He didn’t want Mrs. Weasley to think Hermione is a scarlet woman now did he.

Krum: I’d say Harry didn’t have a choice; remember, he mentioned how tall Krum was; then again, being suspected by Krum is pretty telling in it self. After all, Hermione did talk very “often” about him.

Cho: He laughed, but he didn’t deny it; I remember he even defended Hermione from Cho. From Cho’s POV, it was always “Darling Hermione”

I did not say that Hermione woudl fall in love with his fame, money or scar.To say so drastically underestimates Hermione's character. I meant that she knows him very well and his true personality is very intriguing also. So extraordinary yet sooo normal, so caring and all the best things you look for in a person.

Love is not a game. Love should be taken seriously. You don’t love someone because everyone expected you to love someone else. You don’t fall in love to be different. You fall in love to love. That’s all that matters.
A Harry and Hermione’s love would be extraordinary. On one side, you have a skinny, headstrong, and a bit foolish boy who had to take on the most evil villain possible. He is crushed by the pressure in defending his school, his friends, and his world. To outsiders, he is a hero; a great, spectacular, hero that is invincible. He is famous and rich. He is also admired and envied; yet no one knows him; no one truly understands him. He is an orphan. He is lonely. He doesn’t understand love. He will possible never understand love. He has never been loved by his parents; he has never received love from his guardians. He doesn’t know what love is. It would take a powerful form of love to wake him from his depression. It would take years and years of communication, understanding, and friendship, in order for Harry to understand what love means. Who can provide this love? In fairy-tales, we expect the prince to marry a pretty, gentle, kind, and feminine princess and together, they would live happily ever after. In comic books, we expect the super-heros to fall for airheads that couldn’t spell their names to save their lives; just as long as they are beautiful, of course. However, Harry Potter books are different; it isn’t a comic book; it is something else all together. Who will earn Harry’s heart? Who can provide him with true love? Someone who isn’t a marked beauty—someone who isn’t confident about her looks-- someone who isn’t perfect, but someone who is smart, bookish, and plain. Someone who constantly worries over him; someone who cares about him so deeply that she is willing to lie, to sacrifice herself and all else in order to save him. Someone who loves him: Hermione.
True love is never ordinary. It is never normal or trivial.

Okay you struck a nerve with me. It really really really really bothers me when people downpaly Ron's importance or dismiss him as an abusive, easily angered, jealous and stupid person who is undeserving of Hermione's friendship. it's simply not true.

I have never said Ron is abusive, easily angered, jealous, or stupid. I have merely provided the facts. It is your interpretation that placed Ron into the abusive, easily angered, jealous, and stupid category. Furthermore, I have never ever said anything about Ron not deserving Hermione’s friendship.

Hermione and Ron have a substantial, deep, and meaningful relationship, even if not all H/Hr shippers agree.

Yes, they’re very good friends.

They risk their lives for each other, they always ultimately overcome their differences when it truly matters, they hang out, they talk, they have fun together.While they have differences of opinion, they still care about each other deeply.

Indeed, this sounds wonderful; and it is. It is also a very good description of Harry and Hermione’s relationship.

Examples of this can be the Scabbers fight. It really affected both of them and showed that they needed each other.

How?

my point is that they are connected by more than Harry. They have a relationship too, they are not just mutual friends of Harry's.

Correction: they have a friendship, and I’ve never stated that they aren’t best-friends themselves.

It isthe sight of Hermione's empty chair that stiffens Ron's resolve to go into the forest in Book 2.

It is also the sight of Hermione’s petrified body that made Harry unable to concentrate to his surroundings

It is furthermore the “thought” of Hermione being attacked that prompted Harry to stay at Hogwarts, even if it meant endangering himself.

Hermione is genuinely concerned about Ron in Books 1, 3, and 4, and even defends Ron to Harry during the Triwizard fight when harry wants to strangle him.

Where does it say that Harry wanted to strangle Ron? Also, funny how Hermione supposedly defended Ron, but ends up staying by Harry’s side. Oh yes, what happened to book 2? I guess Hermione’s not consistent with her genuine concern for Ron, unlike her complete devotion to Harry throughout all five books.

There is a substantial relationship there and to say that they are unable to overcoe trivial differences seriously undermines text.

Can you point out an incident where they truly resolved a problem, not just abandon it?

I simply don't have time to go into all that now, but I hop I got my point across.

Yes you're a very talented debater, but you needn’t to accuse me for undermining Ron and Hermione’s friendship or bashing Ron’s character, because I didn’t.

~Polaris :)

v@sh

September 7th, 2003, 3:03 am

Forgive me but I’m a little slow I dind’t quite understand what you meant to ask so I will answer you based on what I think it was. For my point of view jkr is classifying the being in love and after or together in the same category. In GoF Ginny gave up on Harry and got together with him after the Yule Ball. This by Hermione’s words. I clearly see based on what I have seen the quote linked too that she was referering directly to Ron, Hermione and Harry. I do not believe that she was applying this to every person in the HP books. Otherwise if we were to nitpick then even Molly and Arthur would be wrong. I clearly see that she was referering to H/R/Hr. Specially because in the times I have read this interview she links it indirectly and directly to the trio not anyone else.

I see where your coming from and it makes sense. Sorry for the poor explainations, not one of my strong points. I just interpreted your earlier posts that your posts that the quote JKR gave included Dean and Ginny.

Has it occured to you that what may be more telling is that Harry has known Hermione pretty well for five years and STILL isn't interested in her???

Just because you know someone for so long does not mean you have to have an interest in them. Like Narami said, they are at a young age, especially the first years at Hogwarts where they're just plain friends. While he begins to progess from a teenager - young adult they might change though.

It really really really really bothers me when people downpaly Ron's importance or dismiss him as an abusive, easily angered, jealous and stupid person who is undeserving of Hermione's friendship.

Ron has an extremely important role in the books, and that is of being Harry and Hermione's friend in times of need throughout the war which has begun.

I don't think hes easily angered at all, except when insults are thrown at him or his friends, but then who wouldn't be? Its natural to be defensive of your friends and family. Jealous...of Krum yes, but thats about the only thing hes jealous of (bar Harry's fame but gets over most of that in GoF) and we all know why that is, quite natural there as well. Ron is definately not abusive, verbally sometimes when in rows with Hermione but she can equally be abusive towards Ron with her remarks. As for stupid, I don't know where you managed to get that from but Ron isn't stupid. He comes from a family of powerful and smart wizards/witches so I don't see why people would call him stupid. He may be slow to pick up things at times but he isn't stupid. Ron's a great character and is deserving of Hermione's friendship, but deserving of her as a girlfriend, I have second thoughts about that. I think Turambar and Mad I sum it up well on the previous page why I think this.

Grace Granger

September 7th, 2003, 3:56 am

P.S. – Oh, Harmonians, please, let me sail the HMS Harmony too? I’ve talked to MEM and he said it was okay, but since I haven’t seen him here for a while, would you guys let me in?

You're cool with me, too Fabiana! ;)

GilyAnn

September 7th, 2003, 4:15 am

I know you have constant raise the fact that Ron never voice his opinion as mature. IMHO, i have to diagree here. Those are major discussion they are having, it is important for Ron to vocie his opinion. It may casuse a major arguement, but I rather see them talk it through then seeing Ron silent. To me, a friend is a person who will hit my head with a rock, when he believe I am going to fall into a pit.

:upset: :upset: Poor Ron. I don't think he can ever do something right! :upset: :upset: Spew is a mayor argument and does Hermione ever listen to him. No, she never listen to him. Hermione only has to listen to him. He doesn't think that Dobby is doing anything wrong. On the contrary he seems to be very fond of him. I don't see Ron as being in support of slavery he supports whatever makes the Elf's happy that all he wants. If Hermione would *really* listen to him she may realized that he does have a small point on her plan. One that could be very valuable. Ron's point on Rita Seeker was very valid. Did Hermione listen to him? No. My point is that Hermione doesn't listen to anybody. You have to agree with her or get ready for a row. She is very opinionated. So if Ron is caught between the two people that are ready to row in on him. My opinion is stay quiet and doen't say anything. Either way nobody is going to listen to him.

Again, jokes are meant to be funny.

and she laugh at them and found it funny.

She is outside giggling in Book 4 as Charlie and Bill smash the tables into each other.

Giggling at smashing tables does not indicate whatsoever about one’s character.

Yet Hermione is in a corner looking a bit frighten or something like that. Ginny clearly found it funny. Hermione didn't.

So she is not Hermione; we all somehow knew that before OotP. Again, this doesn’t display Ginny’s character.

Yes it does because it says that she can find something funny and laugh about it but take it seriously also. She clearly knew and explained to Harry what the twins wanted to do and how they had been doing it so far. Which BTW shows that she knows more than we think.

Really? I seem to find instances where she doesn’t find George and Fred funny at all. In CoS, for example, Fred and George took turns trying to cheer her up by dressing up with boils and fur. Ginny seemed to find that extremely annoying. She didn’t agree with their sense of humor then, did she.

PoA The head boy thing she founded funny the twins deep discousted face and her mothers insunuation.

She looks up to her older brother; again, this isn’t a unique characteristic of Ginny’s; most little sisters do look up to their older siblings. Unless you get the squabbling types who act like Ron and Hermione, but then again, that is a whole other thread.

She stopped the argument and she did again on the Harry and Ron mocking of Neville. Witty.

The only thing she proved to echo Harry was his stupidity. She had been told that by Mr. Weasley never to trust anything that can think for itself. Harry, on the other hand, was totally clueless about wizarding items. To say she was independent is to avoid cannon. She was holding Mrs. Weasley’s hand in King Cross in SS/PS. In CoS, she was again, an image of a little girl when she ran away from Malfoy when he teased her about the Singing Valentine. In GoF, she was holding Fred’s hand when they were running away from the death-eaters after the QWC. As far as pride, we have never seen any incident where she had to defend her own pride prior to OotP. So it was your assumption.

Yes the fact that diary spoke back and Ron knew that it was a dark object it's a clue on it's own that something else is different on her. Anybody would be embarrassed to be mocked in front of the boy you like. Also Fred is the one who grabs Ginny's hand and pulls her to the forest. Notice how everyone follows and then they dissapear or get lost. And I think this was a cat reference more than anything. In history people used to use cats to safeguard themselves in safe places. Add this to the constant cat references and I can't wait for book 6 to come out.

Sense? Throwing away Riddle’s diary in Moaning Mrytle’s bathroom does not show sense; it shows stupidity (not bashing Ginny of course) If she suspects something to be dangerous, shouldn’t she have notified Dumbledore? Shouldn’t she at least tell her parents? Instead, she chose the dumbest idea of all; chuck it. She was born into a magical family. She isn’t a muggle. She should have “had the sense” to realize that magical items are not going to just go away or be destroyed that easily. It certainly doesn’t show sense or logic for that matter.

Yes it shows sense. She realized the conection and try to chuck the diary. If she had told anyone she was going to have to tell also why didn't she think the item was strange and I really believe that book 2 was way too early for us to know about it!

What you were showing were general characteristics that doesn’t reflect Ginny’s true character in any way. What you were showing were trivial things that any normal person would do in Ginny’s situation, specifically, laughing at jokes. Really, laughing shouldn’t be considered as a unique characteristic; or there would be a whole lot of mournful people in the world.

What we were giving you were clear foreshadowing of Ginny's character none of that was invented. We predicted based on many of those things how Ginny's character would be and we were right. She was exactly the way we though she would be based upon this.

I think Ginny knows Harry too. Not necessarily as well as hermione, but she knows him atleast as well as Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. I don't think it's fair to say that Ginny still think of Harry as the Boy Who Lived
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.

The word “still” is significant. Ginny once thought of Harry as the “Boy who Lived” didn’t she. Hermione didn’t. That says a lot about the two different characters.

Were in Cannon does Ginny state that Harry is the boy who lived? And only sees him for that. As far as I can remember nowhere. On the contrary Hermione acknoledges who Harry is an tells how she knows all about him, tells him in what books he is in. If we are going to classified fan girl behaviour shall we include Hermione in it also? I think it isn't fair to her character and neither it is to Ginny. Ginny expressed the same curiousity that all those wizards that came up to pick up Harry did(OoP), the same as Doris Crawford, Tom the bartender and even Mr. Weasley and heck even Draco was surprised to see Harry. All of them by 'seeing Harry as the boy who lived'. Funny thing is that Ginny KNOWS that Harry would have given up that title in exchange to have a family, like said in book 5.

Gily Ann

briarswt

September 7th, 2003, 4:20 am

"Absolutely not. But the fact that Harry is indiffernet about Krum is telling to me. No response whatsoever. it's like he couldn't care less. "

One of my favorite fanfic authors, Romulus Lupin, wrote Ron remembering that Harry told him Hermione could have gone to the Yule Ball with the troll that had tried to kill her first year and he wouldn't have questioned it because he trusts her that much. I see the sentiment as being very spot - on. I believe that as long as Hermione is happy, he's ok with it. I see him not being indifferent to Hermione/Krum but ACCEPTING of it.

BabyMars

September 7th, 2003, 5:05 am

Hey all fellow posters!

I've decided to come out of browse mode and get back into the game again. Good to see my fellow shipmates and everyone else.

Thank you Falcon for my signature :)

Cheers *smooch* (Still waiting for that smooch smily :grumble: )

_BT_

September 7th, 2003, 5:24 am

well after that short haitus... we're back for part 5!

for anyone new: briefly my views are thus-
H/Hr = most likely and evident from textual evidence
R/Hr = somewhat likely
H/G = not in this lifetime
R/L = probable
L/N = where did this one come from?
N/G = possible

before i read the 10 (!) pages already posted and reply to those, 2 quick things I wanted to respond to from part 4:

Fleur’s attitude irritated Hermione and so did Ron’s infatuation with Fleur. Hermione is irritated that Ron fails to see beyond Fleur's looks to her personality, which as we see from that laugh, isn't all that nice.

exactly. honestly, any prospects of hermione being jealous of fleur is almost as far-fetched as the "sandwich theory." much more likely that hermione dislikes both fleur's "improperness"/attitude and ron's superficial attraction towards her.

In Ootp, Hermione has NEVER shown any sign of jealousy towards Luna, despite her obvious crush on Ron.

yup. this is one question i have been waiting for an r/hr answer to for a long time. i doubt we'll get one anytime soon though. :lol:

Perhaps it would be a good idea if instead of jumping down someones throats the minute you feel insulted, you could just let it go? Just a thought for everyone. It would keep things a lot more civil.

word. :tu:

let's try to be civil this time around, eh?

haycheng

September 7th, 2003, 6:14 am

To GilyAnn
I am talking about Harry/Ron relationship there. As you want to bring in the SPEW arguement, it is fine with me.
Spew is a mayor argument and does Hermione ever listen to him. No, she never listen to him. Hermione only has to listen to him. He doesn't think that Dobby is doing anything wrong. On the contrary he seems to be very fond of him. I don't see Ron as being in support of slavery he supports whatever makes the Elf's happy that all he wants. If Hermione would *really* listen to him she may realized that he does have a small point on her plan. One that could be very valuable. Ron's point on Rita Seeker was very valid. Did Hermione listen to him? No. My point is that Hermione doesn't listen to anybody. You have to agree with her or get ready for a row. She is very opinionated. So if Ron is caught between the two people that are ready to row in on him. My opinion is stay quiet and doen't say anything. Either way nobody is going to listen to him.
Yes, Hermione is wrong to never think about Ron opinion, ever though I do not support his opinion. I never say Ron is wrong to voice his opinon about SPEW, but he voice it in a wrong way. Moreover, I do not like his opinion in this topic. We really do not know do Ron support salvary of elve or not. Judge by his character, he is a good caring person. However, wizards society are brainwashed to think Elve are lower lifeform. Ever in today society, there are place that people brainwash other to believe certain group are lower. It is very clear that the German believe Jew are lower during the WWII. Some of them may have good character but simply cannot see why Jews are equal.

It may sound bashing. although I merely consider Ron to be the victim of the society. I still rather he voice his opinion then quiet.

It is a wrong attitude when you do not want to voice you opinion because you do not want to be bash by your friends. It is my believe.

Polaris15

September 7th, 2003, 7:34 am

and she laugh at them and found it funny
Yet Hermione is in a corner looking a bit frighten or something like that. Ginny clearly found it funny. Hermione didn't

Actually. Hermione was described as "torn between amusement and anxiety. She wasn't in a corner huddling in fear. She was concerned obviously about smashing tables and perhaps their safety, but she was definitely not frightened.
Anyway, back to our discussion; this scene only shows that Ginny's personality is different from Hermione's, but again, we already knew that. Usually, characters in books tend to have some-what different personalities. However, what was her personality? It could be similar to Ron's, Percy's, Hannah Abbott's, and even Snape's. Having her laugh at something so trivial does not indicate any unique qualities about her. Her finding something funny or laughing at a joke that dozens of others also respond the same way, is a very weak argument.

PoA The head boy thing she founded funny the twins deep discousted face and her mothers insunuation.

Using the fact that Ginny finds Fred and George funny to define her personality is ridiculous. After all, most people at Hogwarts found Fred and George to be extremely funny; Ginny’s personality melded perfectly with the other 3000 students.

Yes the fact that diary spoke back and Ron knew that it was a dark object it's a clue on it's own that something else is different on her. Anybody would be embarrassed to be mocked in front of the boy you like.

How would confessing privately to Dumbledore embarrass her to Harry? I seriously doubt Dumbledore would announce it to the entire school.

Also Fred is the one who grabs Ginny's hand and pulls her to the forest.

And your point is?

Notice how everyone follows and then they dissapear or get lost. And I think this was a cat reference more than anything. In history people used to use cats to safeguard themselves in safe places. Add this to the constant cat references and I can't wait for book 6 to come out.

Sorry, you lost me here. I don't think I mentioned anything about cats. :shrug:

Yes it shows sense. She realized the conection and try to chuck the diary.

It doesn’t show logic or common-sense. To the contrary, it merely shows how naïve she was and it adds to our initial perspective of Ginny as a little-girl. It doesn’t collaborate with the Ginny in OotP.

If she had told anyone she was going to have to tell also why didn't she think the item was strange and I really believe that book 2 was way too early for us to know about it!

Know about what?

What we were giving you were clear foreshadowing of Ginny's character none of that was invented.

True. None of the evidence were invented, but it doesn’t give a “clear” foreshadowing of Ginny’s character at all. In fact, it only makes the gap between Pre-Ootp Ginny and Post-OotP Ginny seem bigger.

We predicted based on many of those things how Ginny's character would be and we were right. She was exactly the way we though she would be

Again, it is “your” prediction and "your" opinion, not mine.

Where in Cannon does Ginny state that Harry is the boy who lived? And only sees him for that. As far as I can remember nowhere.

Oh really? I could think of a couple of blatant indicators.

“Who?”
“Harry Potter!”
Harry heard the little girl’s voice.
“Oh, Mom, can I go on the train and see him, Mom, oh please….”
“You’ve already seen him, Ginny, and the poor boy isn’t something you goggle at in a zoo…” (97 SS)

*********
He, Ron, and Hermione passed through th egateway together.
“There he is, Mom, there he is, look!”
It was Ginny Weasley, Ron’s younger sister, but she wasn’t pointing at Ron.
“Harry Potter!” she squealed. “Look, Mom! I can see--”
“Be quiet Ginny, and it’s rude to point.” (308 SS)
*********

At that moment there was a diversion in the form of a small, red-headed figure in a long nightdress, who appeared in the kitchen, gave a small squeal, and ran out again.
“Ginny,” said Ron in an undertone to Harry. “My sister. She’s been talking about you all summer.”
“Yeah, she’ll be wanting your autograph Harry,” Fred said with a grin…” (CoS 35)

The first two quotes are from SS, when Ginny didn’t go to Hogwarts, and the last is taken from the beginning of CoS, where Harry first visited the burrow. In all three instances, Ginny didn’t know Harry at all. You can interpret it however you want. After all, I cannot help any one to see the light after he/she decides to remain in the darkness.

On the contrary Hermione acknoledges who Harry is an tells how she knows all about him, tells him in what books he is in. If we are going to classified fan girl behaviour shall we include Hermione in it also?

Possessing Knowledge on Harry does not qualify Hermione into the fan-girl area. Hermione is a book-worm; Harry is in many books; put 2 and 2 together and we get 4. I doubt that Hermione would skip the parts where Harry was mentioned; then again, Hermione didn’t have trouble talking to him after acknowledging that he was Harry Potter either. She went right along and introduced herself. She didn’t blush. She didn’t stare at him like he is a zoo animal. She didn’t ask to see his scar. She didn’t act nervous and twitchy around him. She didn’t gush to other people about him. She didn’t stalk him. She didn’t squeal excitedly when she sees him again. To say that Hermione acts like a fan-girl is an insult to JKR’s writing skills, not to mention your intelligence.

I think it isn't fair to her character and neither it is to Ginny. Ginny expressed the same curiousity that all those wizards that came up to pick up Harry did(OoP), the same as Doris Crawford, Tom the bartender and even Mr. Weasley and heck even Draco was surprised to see Harry. All of them by 'seeing Harry as the boy who lived'. Funny thing is that Ginny KNOWS that Harry would have given up that title in exchange to have a family, like said in book 5.n this.

It took Ginny and the others five years to find out what Hermione understood in less than five minutes.

Oh BTW, I think you sort of contradicted yourself. Before you posted:

Where in Cannon does Ginny state that Harry is the boy who lived? And only sees him for that. As far as I can remember nowhere.

And afterwards you posted:

I think it isn't fair to her character and neither it is to Ginny. Ginny expressed the same curiousity that all those wizards that came up to pick up Harry did(OoP), the same as Doris Crawford, Tom the bartender and even Mr. Weasley and heck even Draco was surprised to see Harry. All of them by 'seeing Harry as the boy who lived'.

But then again, I might've misinterpreted your "And only sees him for that." Do you mean that Ginny doesn't see Harry as the boy who lived at all, or that Ginny does see Harry as the "boy-who-lived", but just doesn't state it directly in the text?

If it the first reason, you can go back and read my three examples. If it is the second one, then well...all I can say is... :nc:

Cheers!
~Polaris :D

Daveydee

September 7th, 2003, 8:12 am

Concerning the popular notion that Ron's feelings towards Hermione are based on the shallowness of physical attraction.

Well, I respectfully disagree here. And I’m going to use a quote R/H shippers love, “this is all Harry’s POV”. We really don’t know how Ron reacted the first time he saw her at the ball, we just know that he walked past her without looking at her. My interpretation is: Ron had seen her, felt insulted by her looks and by her company and then walked past her without looking at her. But we really don’t know.
This of course concerning Hermione's appearance at the Yule Ball. Of course you are perefctly entitled to your interpretation, but as you rightly say this is Harry's POV. And in that passage Harry's POV is quite clearly presented - he observes that Ron singularly fails to bat an eyelid at Hermione in all her finery, which one would have expected of him if it were the case that all he cared about was her looks. Whatever else you may say about the motivation behind Ron's behaviour at the Yule Ball, it does at least underline the fact that Ron pays no attention to Hermione's looks. And indeed at no other point in any of the books is it ever suggested that Ron is charmed by Hermione's physical attributes.

I see other members have posted responses to my original question (and thanks for doing that) giving other reasons which lie at the heart of Ron's feelings - possessiveness, over-protectiveness, 'objectification', etc. I'll be quite happy to debate those separately. But my original aim was to quash the popularly held view in the H/Hr fandom, and one which is constantly put forward, that Ron's feelings for Hermione are based on shallow physical attraction. I am pleased to have achieved that.

I honestly cannot fathom how a teenager who has been shunted into the background and overshadowed by his brothers all his life will not view a very close female friend as a potential love interest, in the very prime of his hormonal development. In Ron's mind, there is nothing that he can gain that will surpass his brothers, other than to have a girl on his arm. Of course, this is bosh, as we've seen in OotP--Ron can make important accomplishments, without having to win himself a trophy girlfriend.
Well observed, Earendil. The ugly reality of teenage growing pains - just as JK said she would depict the romantic sub plot. And as we see in OotP, as Ron makes those accomplished strides forward, so he takes a more considered and measured view of Hermione's sensibilities. Heck, one could almost say the boy is growing up.

danielradclifferox

September 7th, 2003, 8:36 am

i thought harry and cho would be together, but now, i'm not too sure, maybe harry would be with hermoine. but what about ron? what would be his reaction if harry and haermoine get together? :shrug:

Buckbeak

September 7th, 2003, 8:51 am

Hello, well i have to appoligise but i haven't been on here for a while so im going to have to take you back a few pages just so i can respond to Daveydee who took the time to respond to me, so here it goes.
There is no text, to support the notion that Harry is in any way jealous over what he might perceive as a developing relationship between Ron and Hermione. I don't recall ever having seen any H/Hr shipper suggest that he is or ever has been.
You know what? i knew you'd say something like that, so in a way i was prepared for it. I was not suggesting that Harry is, as of yet jealous of R/Hr, if he thinks that theres something going on between them that is, which i am kind of split in two about. What i was saying that if in your opinon JK is using the Ron and Luna 'thing' as an excuse for Hermione to realize her feelings for Ron then why can't the same be true to Harry but instead for the Ron and Hermione 'thing'. I mean there is no text to say that Hermione has ever been jealous of Ron, unless you count the Fleur bit in GOF, which i expect you do being a R/Hr shipper, but i feel that it can be interpreted in different ways as we've all disscussed here and as a R/Hr shipper-hater i see it as something different to what a R/Hr'er might see, but then its inevitable that that should happen.

I can only speak for myself (although I'm pretty sure other R/Hr veterans would agree), but neither of those is the case. Ron is not my favourite character, I don't hate Harry, and in an ideal world it would be wonderful for him to end up with Hermione. My view is based purely on my interpretation of events and perception of characters.
Fine

No more than H/Hr shippers take an equivalent view on the prospects of Ron and Hermione happening. And of course we don't know what JK is going to write. Nobody does. That's why we're all here speculating in the Predictions and Theories forum.
Yes i suppose thats fair, but iv never seen a H/Hr'er deny that there is a possiblty for R/Hr even if they don't like it, where as iv come across lots of R/Hr'ers that are so convinced that Ron and Hermione have as good as happened that they are not leaving there minds open to anything other than what they believe, i feel that come the end and JK has ended with a H/Hr relationship, or even, god forbid, a D/Hr then all those lovely R/Hr shippers are going to be very dissapointed.

I believe that there are good and valid reasons for writing Ron and Hermione as a couple. In fact, I'm in the process of puuting together a post about that very subject. So...watch this space.
Have you put that post together yet only, i have to admit i have only merely skimmed through the last five pages as i don't have time to read it all now, if you have already then could you please tell me which number the posts at, because i need some convicing that R/Hr as a couple are not a complete waste of time and that together they will be a match made in heaven :D .

Daveydee

September 7th, 2003, 10:50 am

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Buckbeak

You know what? i knew you'd say something like that, so in a way i was prepared for it. I was not suggesting that Harry is, as of yet jealous of R/Hr, if he thinks that theres something going on between them that is, which i am kind of split in two about. What i was saying that if in your opinon JK is using the Ron and Luna 'thing' as an excuse for Hermione to realize her feelings for Ron then why can't the same be true to Harry but instead for the Ron and Hermione 'thing'. I mean there is no text to say that Hermione has ever been jealous of Ron, unless you count the Fleur bit in GOF, which i expect you do being a R/Hr shipper, but i feel that it can be interpreted in different ways as we've all disscussed here and as a R/Hr shipper-hater i see it as something different to what a R/Hr'er might see, but then its inevitable that that should happen.
Well, of course the 'Ron and Luna' thing hasn't actually happened yet and the theory was just that - a theory. Whereas, IMO, the 'Ron and Hermione thing' has happenned and is happening under Harry's nose, something about which I believe he is fully aware.

And you're a R/Hr shipper-hater?? :sad: And we haven't even met! Or do you mean ship hater?

Yes i suppose thats fair, but iv never seen a H/Hr'er deny that there is a possiblty for R/Hr even if they don't like it, where as iv come across lots of R/Hr'ers that are so convinced that Ron and Hermione have as good as happened that they are not leaving there minds open to anything other than what they believe...
As in politics and religion, the protagonists of the great shipping debate come in varying degrees of persuasion, ranging from the moderate to the extreme - that applies to both ships. You don't need to look too far to find H/Hr shippers who refuse to entertain the remotest possibility of anything other than H/Hr, and who clearly state even at this early stage that they will continue to deny it even if it does happen.

Have you put that post together yet only, i have to admit i have only merely skimmed through the last five pages as i don't have time to read it all now, if you have already then could you please tell me which number the posts at, because i need some convicing that R/Hr as a couple are not a complete waste of time and that together they will be a match made in heaven :D .
It's underway, but not posted yet. I got sidetracked into demonstrating quite successfully that Ron's view of Hermione was based on something more meaningful than physical attraction. :D

Lord - Thingy

September 7th, 2003, 10:52 am

Mad I
True, but this could also be a bad thing for them as it could be just too weird because there are good friends......think of how Harry reacts to her kiss.
Ron and Hermione are also good friends.
True, not much to say except many people argue for the "tension" between Ron and Hermione leading to a relationship. But, despite many arguments against me and others yesterday I wasn't convinced that Harry and Ron don't respect Hermione's smarts because they only want to copy but this is a possibility.
I think Harry and Ron respect Hermione's smarts, only I think Harry also has a deeper respect for her as a person
True, although I am not sure what you mean by 'old souls' you will have to tell me. But, Harry and Hermione definitley do have a deep link between them, they seem to share theories and such
Someone already explained it much better than I can, I think it was Nia, by 'old souls' I mean that they don't act their age but with more maturity (not all the time of course they are teenagers after all)
True, and I understand what you are saying, but I kinda fail to see how this contributes to a possible relationship because just because they appreciate magic and they may share a minor bond because of their interaction with muggles it isn't exactly the kind of bond that will contribute to a relationship.
Ecthelion answered to this beautifully: I think what their trying to say is that this is yet another special connection between the two that Ron has nought.
Harry and Hermione share a vision of the world that Ron just doesn't have, I am not saying that this is a definitive reason for a relationship, just a little detail.
True, but I think that they admire each other in other ways than what seems to be implied by this statement. Hermoine, being one of the smartest people from Griffindor always seems to be the voice of reason in the adventures of Ron and Harry, because of this it seems that she has grown to admire Harry's bravery (see: the end of PS/SS) and his disregard of what she sees as impossible odds. She has started to grow out of that (see: OotP pretty much the entire book see takes more risks than she would have in Book 1) but still admires Harry's bravery. Harry on the other hand recognizes that voice of reason and admires Hermione's ability to assess situations even if she is too scared to act upon them. Harry often asks Hermione for help on homework and other school related activities as well as the brain buster at the end of PS/SS. This is because he recongnizes her abilities and chooses to use them.
I'm sorry if it seemed like I was implying an admiration other than the one you point out, Hermione admires Harry's bravery and Harry admires Hermione's intelligence, and just like you said: 'Harry on the other hand recognizes that voice of reason and admires Hermione's ability to assess situations even if she is too scared to act upon them'
True again, that they would have a solid foundation but there still has to be a pretty major change to make the feelings of friendship change into love, but once that does happen I do agree that the foundation will already be built.
That's the reason I said 'IF they ever become romantically interested'. But I personally don't think that a MAJOR change is needed, they just have to realize they love each other.

Now

Daveydee
Glad this has been mentioned, because this is one of the main couterpoints by the H/Hr ship to R/Hr, and one which has largely gone unchallenged. Namely that a relationship between Harry and Hermione will be based on deep feelings and that Ron's attraction to Hermione is based upon the superficial crushing of physical attraction.
When I said 'a crush' I was thinking of Ginny, when I said 'physical attraction' I was thinking of Cho, nevertheless....
That in mind - here's a conundrum, I'd like to pose to all the good shipmates of HMS Harmony:

1. Is it suggested or alluded to in canon that Ron is physically attracted to Hermione?

If you answer 'Yes':

2. Where is it?

Alternatively, if you answer 'No':

3. In the absence of Ron being physically attracted to Hermione what other explanation is there for his feelings towards her?
My answer would be No, unless he all of a sudden realized how pretty she looked at the ball, but we don't really get his PoV in the book, so why the apparent jealousy?, well I think he took Hermione for granted, he was being possesive, maybe I don't remember correctly but he wasn't against the idea of Hermione going to the ball with Harry, he just didn't liked the idea of someone outside the trio.

See you all later, and thank you for the welcome Ecthelion

Buckbeak

September 7th, 2003, 11:09 am

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Buckbeak Well, of course the 'Ron and Luna' thing hasn't actually happened yet and the theory was just that - a theory. Whereas, IMO, the 'Ron and Hermione thing' has happenned and is happening under Harry's nose, something about which I believe he is fully aware.
So put your theory into conjunction but turn it around Harry could become jealous of Ron and Hermione together which makes him realize his feelings for her. Isn't that what you were saying to happen between Ron/Luna/Hermione? if it could work there, why not with the other?

so you think Harry already knows about Ron and Hermione? hmmm ok... interesting...

And you're a R/Hr shipper-hater?? :sad: And we haven't even met! Or do you mean ship hater?
Oh no i'm a R/Hr ship-hater, sorry if it sounded that i meant i was a R/Hr shipper hater thats just awful and i would have to beat my self up if i ever hated someone iv never met although there is some celebrities that i throughly despise *coughJordancough*

As in politics and religion, the protaganists of the great shipping debate come in varying degrees of persuasion, ranging from the moderate to the extreme - that applies to both ships. You don't need to look too far to find H/Hr shippers that will not entertain the remotest possibility of anything other than H/Hr, and who clearly state even at this early stage that they will continue to deny it even if it does happen.
yes i suppose it would be wrong for me to disagree with that, so i won't :D

It's underway, but not posted yet. I got sidetracked into demonstrating quite successfully that Ron's view of Hermione was based on something more meaningful than physical attraction. :D Good good i shall be waiting for that post then.

Daveydee

September 7th, 2003, 11:16 am

so you think Harry already knows about Ron and Hermione? hmmm interesting...
Just let me clarify that. When I say the 'Ron and Hermione thing' (quoting your phrase) what I mean is the fact that Ron has feelings for Hermione (and that Harry is aware of them).

I don't subscribe to the view that Ron and Hermione are already dating. Lord - no! *shudders at the preposterouness of that idea*

Not sure if that was what you were querying. But I thought as soon as I'd made my last post that some confusion might arise over the phrase ' the Ron and Hermione thing'.

EDIT: Bah! You've added to your post.
So put your theory into conjunction but turn it around Harry could become jealous of Ron and Hermione together which makes him realize his feelings for her. Isn't that what you were saying to happen between Ron/Luna/Hermione? if it could work there, why not with the other?
That could indeed happen if upto this point in time Harry was blissfully unaware of Ron's feelings. But as I contend - he is aware of them, and has not indicated any signs of jealousy.

None of which offers a satisfactory explanation to the introduction of Luna into the equation, her apparent liking of Ron, and Hermione's apparent dislike of her.

Buckbeak

September 7th, 2003, 11:34 am

EDIT: Bah! You've added to your post.
:D Well i'm a very forgetful person practically every post i submit i have to go back on and add something

That could indeed happen if upto this point in time Harry was blissfully unaware of Ron's feelings. But as I contend - he is aware of them, and has not indicated any signs of jealousy.
Well do you contend that Hermione is aware of Rons' feelings for her? and as of yet iv seen know jealousy from her either, although you will not agree :sigh:

None of which offers a satisfactory explanation to the introduction of Luna into the equation, her apparent liking of Ron, and Hermione's apparent dislike of her.
Theres about a thousand reason for this and really only JK knows, my interpreation from a H/Hr point of view is that once Harry and Hermione start going out, Luna will be a sholder to cry on for Ron and then they will start to go out. :D
Ok i wasn't being serious with that.

Ecthelion

September 7th, 2003, 2:07 pm

Poor Ron. I don't think he can ever do something right! Spew is a mayor argument and does Hermione ever listen to him. No, she never listen to him. Hermione only has to listen to him. He doesn't think that Dobby is doing anything wrong. On the contrary he seems to be very fond of him. I don't see Ron as being in support of slavery he supports whatever makes the Elf's happy that all he wants. If Hermione would *really* listen to him she may realized that he does have a small point on her plan. One that could be very valuable.

I don't think that your seeing Ron's true motivation here. The reason why he shows affection for Dobby is the same reason he "respects" Hermione in terms of homework.

I'm not saying that Ron hates Dobby or whatnot....because he doesn't. It's just that the way Ron likes dobby isn't pure, it's marred by the fact that he so steadfastedly and quickly takes advantage of Dobby's abilities. Sure, you can say he gave him those clothes, but was that really a huge sacrifice? Minimal if you ask me. Ron's treatment of House-elves is genial, but the way he uses his seniority (sp, lol) over them to acquire his present needs totally defies the point of SPEW.

Ron's point on Rita Seeker was very valid. Did Hermione listen to him? No.

Well, his point was somewhat valid, admitingly. But he is not at all very consistant in putting plausible thoughts in at all. It is in only rare instances that such things happen.

My point is that Hermione doesn't listen to anybody. You have to agree with her or get ready for a row. She is very opinionated.

Hermione holds great confidence and strength in her observations. Which makes sense, since she's usually right. Also, Hermione does listen to other people, she just doesn't openly show it. She listened to Harry at the end when he was going on about Sirius.....even though she instinctively knew he was wrong. Yet, out of her faith and love for Harry she comprimised her steadfast accusations that it was all a trap. Which to me is a considerable achievement as she rarely conceeds to any degree to anyone.

So if Ron is caught between the two people that are ready to row in on him. My opinion is stay quiet and doen't say anything. Either way nobody is going to listen to him

Hmm. It seems to me that he has already adopted this profile seeing as he rarely contributed to most of the important conversations and debates of Harry and Hermione (In the fifth book). And when he did, they practically ignored him....subconsciencesly on Harry's part, but I'm not too sure about Hermione's.

ALSO: Daveydee, I've been wanting to ask this for ages....what's the significants of your avatar?

GilyAnn

September 7th, 2003, 3:05 pm

Haycheng:

Yes, Hermione is wrong to never think about Ron opinion, ever though I do not support his opinion. I never say Ron is wrong to voice his opinon about SPEW, but he voice it in a wrong way. Moreover, I do not like his opinion in this topic. We really do not know do Ron support salvary of elve or not. Judge by his character, he is a good caring person. However, wizards society are brainwashed to think Elve are lower lifeform. Ever in today society, there are place that people brainwash other to believe certain group are lower. It is very clear that the German believe Jew are lower during the WWII. Some of them may have good character but simply cannot see why Jews are equal.

When Ron refers to the Elf’s he says:

“So that’s a house-elf?” Ron muttered. “Weird things, aren’t they?”

“Dobby was weirder,” said Harry fervently.

Chapter 9 GoF

“Winky’s got a squaky little voice, and the voice we heard doing the incantation was much deeper!” She looked around at Harry and Ron, appealing for their support. “It didn’t sound any think like Winky did it?”

“No,” said Harry shaking his head. “It definitely didn’t sound like an elf.”

“Yeah it was a human voice,” said Ron.

Chap. 9 GoF

“The way they were treating her!” said Hermione furiously. “Mr. Diggory, call her ‘elf’ all the time. . . and Mr. Crouch! H eknows she didn’t do it and He’s still going to sack her! He didn’t care how frightened she’d been, or how upset she was – it was like she wasn’t even human!”

“Well she’s not,” said Ron.

Hermione rounded on him.

“That doesn’t mean she hasn’t got feelings, Ron. It’s discousting the way –“

Chap. 12 GoF

Hermione looked down at her hardly touched plate of food, then put her knife and fork down upon it and pushed it away from her.

“Oh c’mon, ‘Er-my-knee,” said Ron, accidentally spraying Harry with bits of Yorkshire pudding. “Oops –sorry, -- ‘Arry—“ He swallowed. “You won’t get them sick leave by starving yourself.”

Chapt. 14 GoF
“Not spew,” said Hermione impatiently. “It’s S-P-E-W. Stands for the society for the promotion of Elfish welfare.”

“Never heard of it,” said Ron.

“Well, of course you haven’t,” said Hermione briskly, “I’ve only just started it.”

“Yeah?” said Ron in mild Surprise. “How Many members have you got?”

“Well—if you two join—three,” said Hermione.

“And you think we want to walk around wearing badges saying ‘spwe’ do you?” said Ron.

>>snip<<

“I’ve been reasearching it thoroughly in the library. Elf enslavement goes back centuries. I can’t believe no one’s done anything about before now.”

“Hermione – open your ears,” said Ron loudly. “They. Like. It. They like being enslaved!”

OoP

'Who's Kreacher?' he asked.
The house-elf who lives here,' said Ron. 'Nutter. Never met one like him.'
Hermione frowned at Ron.
'He's not a nutter, Ron.'
'His life's ambition is to have his head cut off and stuck up on a plaque just like his mother,' said Ron irritably. 'Is that normal, Hermione?'
'Well - well, if he is a bit strange, it's not his fault.'

'What in the name of Merlin are you doing?' said Ron, watching her as though fearful for her sanity.
They're hats for house-elves,' she said briskly, now stuffing her books back into her bag. 'I did them over the summer. I'm a really slow knitter without magic but now I'm back at school I should be able to make lots more.'
'You're leaving out hats for the house-elves?' said Ron slowly. 'And you're covering them up with rubbish first?'
'Yes,' said Hermione defiantly, swinging her bag on to her back.
That's not on,' said Ron angrily. 'You're trying to trick them into picking up the hats. You're setting them free when they might not want to be free.'
'Of course they want to be free!' said Hermione at once, though
I
her face was turning pink. 'Don't you dare touch those hats, Ron!'
She turned on her heel and left. Ron waited until she had disappeared through the door to the girls' dormitories, then cleared the rubbish off the woolly hats.
'They should at least see what they're picking up,' he said firmly.

So Ron yes, as everyone else (including Dumbledore), consider Elf’s not entirely human. Something that if Hermione had patient could actually make see Ron that is not entirely true. Instead she chooses to round on him. Not even sitting to listen his point of view. Which is EXTREMELLY important. That’s the point of view she needs to draw our her tactics and strategies. Ron is not against that the house elf’s be set free or that they get pensions. If he really would be he would do anything on his power to avoid it. Even tell on Hermione about the hats. What he is against is the principle in which Hermione is doing it. She is tricking them, she doesn’t take into account the Elf’s feelings who clearly don’t want to be set free. That’s not really nice of her. If she ‘really’ considers them with feelings then let them (the Elf’s) be the one’s who make the decision if they want to be free. What Ron is opposed is the principle of imposing your point of view on others. Which is a funny thing because that was one of the problems with the jews-hitler mess. Thinking that because you are right everyone else is wrong.

So to rounded up all to what we were debating. It doesn’t matter if he has an opinion or not, Hermione won’t listen to it. It has to be her way or the highway.

Polaris15:

Actually. Hermione was described as "torn between amusement and anxiety. She wasn't in a corner huddling in fear. She was concerned obviously about smashing tables and perhaps their safety, but she was definitely not frightened.
Anyway, back to our discussion; this scene only shows that Ginny's personality is different from Hermione's, but again, we already knew that. Usually, characters in books tend to have some-what different personalities. However, what was her personality? It could be similar to Ron's, Percy's, Hannah Abbott's, and even Snape's. Having her laugh at something so trivial does not indicate any unique qualities about her. Her finding something funny or laughing at a joke that dozens of others also respond the same way, is a very weak argument.

I didn’t have my book on hand. I got it off the top of my head. Yes it does indicate things about her personality it’s a really important argument. It indicates that she is a bit more relaxed than Hermione, that she can find fun in those silly things and that she is more free spirit than Hermione is. Something that Harry needs bad.

Using the fact that Ginny finds Fred and George funny to define her personality is ridiculous. After all, most people at Hogwarts found Fred and George to be extremely funny; Ginny’s personality melded perfectly with the other 3000 students.

Weren’t you saying that she didn’t find them funny? She clearly did and she is very close to them. Hermione doesn't find them funny at times.

How would confessing privately to Dumbledore embarrass her to Harry? I seriously doubt Dumbledore would announce it to the entire school.

Those are two different things. The valentine thing she was embarrassed about Malfoy mocking her. The diary she didn’t want anybody to know her secrets, she would have had to explain why she didn’t find weird. It was exactly what she was trying to avoid.

Sorry, you lost me here. I don't think I mentioned anything about cats.

Here it is again:

The reference about Fred grabbing Ginny’s hand. It has to do more to jkr linking Ginny to a cat, than about protecting her or anything like that.

It doesn’t show logic or common-sense. To the contrary, it merely shows how naïve she was and it adds to our initial perspective of Ginny as a little-girl. It doesn’t collaborate with the Ginny in OotP.

It shows great sense to me. If we are getting to naïve, then Harry is naïve, Hermione and even Ron. This was clearly one of the things, among the many, that us and many non Ginny fans used to outline and that it was written by JKR in to define Ginny’s character before OoP and we were right about it. It was exactly like many fans predicted she would be.

Also if Ginny is naive for not going to Dumbledore then Hermione is then also equally naive. Does she really believe that she has Rita Seeker by the tail? The right thing was to turn her to Dumbledore, but she didn't. IIf Hermione thinks that the Rita thing will sly by without any consecuences she is basically fooling herself.

True. None of the evidence were invented, but it doesn’t give a “clear” foreshadowing of Ginny’s character at all. In fact, it only makes the gap between Pre-Ootp Ginny and Post-OotP Ginny seem bigger.

To your opinion I see. That’s what JKR used to foreshadow Ginny’s character.

Again, it is “your” prediction and "your" opinion, not mine.

Sorry JKR’s writing not mine.

Oh really? I could think of a couple of blatant indicators.

Please look at my question:

Where in Cannon does Ginny state that Harry is the boy who lived?

Statements not indicators opinion or anything along those lines. Opinions are based upon personal reference.

“Who?”
“Harry Potter!”
Harry heard the little girl’s voice.
“Oh, Mom, can I go on the train and see him, Mom, oh please….”
“You’ve already seen him, Ginny, and the poor boy isn’t something you goggle at in a zoo…” (97 SS)

*********
He, Ron, and Hermione passed through th egateway together.
“There he is, Mom, there he is, look!”
It was Ginny Weasley, Ron’s younger sister, but she wasn’t pointing at Ron.
“Harry Potter!” she squealed. “Look, Mom! I can see--”
“Be quiet Ginny, and it’s rude to point.” (308 SS)
*********

At that moment there was a diversion in the form of a small, red-headed figure in a long nightdress, who appeared in the kitchen, gave a small squeal, and ran out again.
“Ginny,” said Ron in an undertone to Harry. “My sister. She’s been talking about you all summer.”
“Yeah, she’ll be wanting your autograph Harry,” Fred said with a grin…” (CoS 35)

The first two quotes are from SS, when Ginny didn’t go to Hogwarts, and the last is taken from the beginning of CoS, where Harry first visited the burrow. In all three instances, Ginny didn’t know Harry at all. You can interpret it however you want. After all, I cannot help any one to see the light after he/she decides to remain in the darkness.

Sorry neither of those are valid. Ginny hardly speaks. In the first one and the second one she expresses the same curiosity that Doris Crawford, Tom the bartender, the people that came to pick up Harry in OoP, Draco Malfoy, Mr. Olivander, and so many other did. She want’s to see Harry Potter. In the last one it is Ron who says out that Ginny has been talking all summer. Only to be proven wrong when Mr. Weasley arrived when he said:
“Good lord, is it Harry Potter? Very pleased to meet you, Ron’s told us so much about –“

Obviously Ron also talked about Harry all summer. Mr. Weasley is pleased to meet him. He’d be wanting also Harry’s autograph. BTW in book 4 Harry clearly states when did fall for him. “upon his first visit to the burrow”.

Possessing Knowledge on Harry does not qualify Hermione into the fan-girl area. Hermione is a book-worm; Harry is in many books; put 2 and 2 together and we get 4. I doubt that Hermione would skip the parts where Harry was mentioned; then again, Hermione didn’t have trouble talking to him after acknowledging that he was Harry Potter either. She went right along and introduced herself. She didn’t blush. She didn’t stare at him like he is a zoo animal. She didn’t ask to see his scar. She didn’t act nervous and twitchy around him. She didn’t gush to other people about him. She didn’t stalk him. She didn’t squeal excitedly when she sees him again. To say that Hermione acts like a fan-girl is an insult to JKR’s writing skills, not to mention your intelligence.

Yes put 2 and 2 and it’s the same. Because if she can say all about him, she can talk about him all summer and at that point Hermione like Ginny doesn’t know Harry. If we are going to classify fan girls behaviour both are the same. Even more we could stretch it and say that Hermione was acting more like it since she follow Harry and Ron and they didn't want her around. Not that I think it's true. Neither Hermione and Ginny is but I'm applying the rule to everybody equaly.

It took Ginny and the others five years to find out what Hermione understood in less than five minutes.

And yet she still doesn’t grasp it and understand it or even is sympathetic towards that.

Oh BTW, I think you sort of contradicted yourself.

Your are twisting what I said. Expressing curiosity over someone and being a fan girl and liking someone because he is so and so are two different things. I could be curious about someone and have little intention of getting to know him or her. Fan girl is hovering around the object of your infatuation always pleasing him, always telling him how great he is, always ready to faint for him. Ginny never did that.

Do you mean that Ginny doesn't see Harry as the boy who lived at all, or that Ginny does see Harry as the "boy-who-lived", but just doesn't state it directly in the text?

Like I said she expressed curiosity upon seeing him the first time? Liked everyone else. Ginny liked Harry ever since “she had been very taken with Harry ever since his first visit to the Burrow.” (GoF)

Ecthelion:

I'm not saying that Ron hates Dobby or whatnot....because he doesn't. It's just that the way Ron likes dobby isn't pure, it's marred by the fact that he so steadfastedly and quickly takes advantage of Dobby's abilities. Sure, you can say he gave him those clothes, but was that really a huge sacrifice? Minimal if you ask me. Ron's treatment of House-elves is genial, but the way he uses his seniority (sp, lol) over them to acquire his present needs totally defies the point of SPEW.

Exept KREACHER I can’t remember Ron being mean to a house Elf and even him. And I didn’t consider that he was being mean he just didn’t like the treatment that he was giving Hermione calling her mudblood and all. So and missing the point that Ron is being superior to the house elf. He praises their good service and above all. He thinks that they are happy. Now if Hermione could sit down and convince him otherwise and he would see it on the Elf’s I’m sure he would help. After all he did help in Buckbeaks case and he was really an animal.

Well, his point was somewhat valid, admitingly. But he is not at all very consistant in putting plausible thoughts in at all. It is in only rare instances that such things happen.

Ahh! But he tried. He told her that she shouldn’t go bugging Rita Seeker because she would go after her. I don’t have the book here so I can’t find the exact words. To Hermione she was on a mission and didn’t bother to listen to some friendly advice.

Hermione holds great confidence and strength in her observations. Which makes sense, since she's usually right. Also, Hermione does listen to other people, she just doesn't openly show it. She listened to Harry at the end when he was going on about Sirius.....even though she instinctively knew he was wrong. Yet, out of her faith and love for Harry she comprimised her steadfast accusations that it was all a trap. Which to me is a considerable achievement as she rarely conceeds to any degree to anyone.

For me it says how immature Hermione is to be honest. You said it ‘in the end’ she ‘listen’ and she didn’t really. She helped him get to Umbridge’s fire to ‘show him’ that Sirius was really there. All along she believed she was right. If she realliy would have been listening to him. Her approach would have been very differently.

Hmm. It seems to me that he has already adopted this profile seeing as he rarely contributed to most of the important conversations and debates of Harry and Hermione (In the fifth book). And when he did, they practically ignored him....subconsciencesly on Harry's part, but I'm not too sure about Hermione's.

Harry didn’t ignore Ron’s voice. Over several things he knew that Ron was on his side and he knew what Ron would think. There was nothing that Ron would say that would make them back out of their position.

Gily Ann

Mad I

September 7th, 2003, 3:41 pm

Whew, lots of long posts, nice work!!!

I don't think that your seeing Ron's true motivation here. The reason why he shows affection for Dobby is the same reason he "respects" Hermione in terms of homework.

I'm not saying that Ron hates Dobby or whatnot....because he doesn't. It's just that the way Ron likes dobby isn't pure, it's marred by the fact that he so steadfastedly and quickly takes advantage of Dobby's abilities. Sure, you can say he gave him those clothes, but was that really a huge sacrifice? Minimal if you ask me. Ron's treatment of House-elves is genial, but the way he uses his seniority (sp, lol) over them to acquire his present needs totally defies the point of SPEW.This is definitley true and though he was brought up as a wizard and basically taught that they are meant to be bossed around he does have a small excuse, but by now he can think for himself and make his own decisions. If Ron can't learn to respect house-elves or even respect Hermione's respect for house-elves (if you don't follow just ask I can find another way to say it) then he will have a definite minus against him in terms of relationships. This may seem like minor thing to disagree on and it kinda is, but just think of the truth behind it......Hermione really feels for house-elves, and is pretty much radical in her view of their treatment, and Ron really doesn't even care about this. In order for a deep relationship to work (especially a more mature relationship) there has to be a certain respect for what each person believes in. Hermione holds great confidence and strength in her observations. Which makes sense, since she's usually right. Also, Hermione does listen to other people, she just doesn't openly show it. She listened to Harry at the end when he was going on about Sirius.....even though she instinctively knew he was wrong. Yet, out of her faith and love for Harry she comprimised her steadfast accusations that it was all a trap. Which to me is a considerable achievement as she rarely conceeds to any degree to anyone.Well said, I can't really disagree :)
ALSO: Daveydee, I've been wanting to ask this for ages....what's the significants of your avatar?I know that this is a little off topic, but I am also curious So Ron yes, as everyone else (including Dumbledore), consider Elf’s not entirely human. Something that if Hermione had patient could actually make see Ron that is not entirely true. Instead she chooses to round on him. Not even sitting to listen his point of view. Which is EXTREMELLY important. That’s the point of view she needs to draw our her tactics and strategies. Ron is not against that the house elf’s be set free or that they get pensions. If he really would be he would do anything on his power to avoid it. Even tell on Hermione about the hats. What he is against is the principle in which Hermione is doing it. She is tricking them, she doesn’t take into account the Elf’s feelings who clearly don’t want to be set free. That’s not really nice of her. If she ‘really’ considers them with feelings then let them (the Elf’s) be the one’s who make the decision if they want to be free. What Ron is opposed is the principle of imposing your point of view on others. Which is a funny thing because that was one of the problems with the jews-hitler mess. Thinking that because you are right everyone else is wrong.I agree with this and it slightly discounts my earlier statements because it would appear as though Hermione doesn't really care what Ron has to say of the matters either, but the point pertaining to this thread remains and that is that this disagreement should probably be resolved (they should talk about their feelings) before any relationship is attempted.

DumbledoreTheWise

September 7th, 2003, 3:44 pm

Dumbledorethewise: Please refrain from "chain" posting. Rules state No Double posting, You are double, triple and more.

You can use the edit option to edit your posts.

Thank you.

Emma

Thanks for the friendly reminder, many pointed that out, but I would like you all to look more carefully at my posts. I stated atleast two or three times that I was having trouble with tthe boards, anything over a certain length the forum would not accept.After four hours on the board and having my first post deleted, I wrote it again and it took me another two hours to "format" it in a way that it would post.
I garuntee you all that I spent lots of time and effort trying not to resort to than insane amount of posts.
I apologize again, but I was truly having trouble with the boards, and I have never had near that much trouble in the past.

evaluna

September 7th, 2003, 5:01 pm

Great posts, Harmony!!! Perdita, Earendil, Ecthelion, haycheng, great posts on Ron/possessiveness & how Ron has made little real strides in maturity if we are to go by behaviour in canon...and to Polaris15, V@sh, Buckbeak, Mad-I, Lord Thingy and Fabiana for rebuttals in defense of ship! Plus anyone I missed... Good stuff on the other sides as well & thanks for keeping the debate moving, all!

All about Ron...

Ecthelion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Gilyann
Poor Ron. I don't think he can ever do something right! Spew is a mayor argument and does Hermione ever listen to him. No, she never listen to him. Hermione only has to listen to him. He doesn't think that Dobby is doing anything wrong. On the contrary he seems to be very fond of him. I don't see Ron as being in support of slavery he supports whatever makes the Elf's happy that all he wants. If Hermione would *really* listen to him she may realized that he does have a small point on her plan. One that could be very valuable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that your seeing Ron's true motivation here. The reason why he shows affection for Dobby is the same reason he "respects" Hermione in terms of homework.

I'm not saying that Ron hates Dobby or whatnot....because he doesn't. It's just that the way Ron likes dobby isn't pure, it's marred by the fact that he so steadfastedly and quickly takes advantage of Dobby's abilities. Sure, you can say he gave him those clothes, but was that really a huge sacrifice? Minimal if you ask me. Ron's treatment of House-elves is genial, but the way he uses his seniority (sp, lol) over them to acquire his present needs totally defies the point of SPEW.

Agreed, Ecthelion and well said. There is a large if unwitting element of self-interest at the expense of the Elves and of Hermione in the situations described. He [like Fred and George in GoF worrying about their supper], actually become a bit strident [GilyAnn has listed a few of these from canon re: Elves by Ron], going so far to say the Elves like being enslaved when in fact they have known no different for several hundred years, so clearly there is no choice involved there at all. Pureblood wizards would surely be aware of this fact.

I think this is a huge argument against R/Hr, and quite frankly I would rather oppose that ship strictly on the basis of other items, because it's unfortunate that there is so little understanding between them on this issues, even just as friends. Hermione and Ron are so different in their positions here that there is no middle ground between them at present. Thus even if their verbal hostilities ceased of their own accord [we have no firm canon evidence that it is not largely due to Harry] and then they suddently were to develop the high regard and consideration necessary for any substantive relationship, still the odds would not favour anything long-term between them so long as something so critical is not held in common. There are some things on which one cannot compromise [end goal of SPEW] lest one be unable to live with [herself], and this is very much where I see this issue re: Hermione.

[b]haycheng
To GilyAnn
I am talking about Harry/Ron relationship there. As you want to bring in the SPEW arguement, it is fine with me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: GilyAnn
Spew is a mayor argument and does Hermione ever listen to him. No, she never listen to him. Hermione only has to listen to him. He doesn't think that Dobby is doing anything wrong. On the contrary he seems to be very fond of him. I don't see Ron as being in support of slavery he supports whatever makes the Elf's happy that all he wants. If Hermione would *really* listen to him she may realized that he does have a small point on her plan. One that could be very valuable. Ron's point on Rita Seeker was very valid. Did Hermione listen to him? No. My point is that Hermione doesn't listen to anybody. You have to agree with her or get ready for a row. She is very opinionated. So if Ron is caught between the two people that are ready to row in on him. My opinion is stay quiet and doen't say anything. Either way nobody is going to listen to him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, Hermione is wrong to never think about Ron opinion, ever though I do not support his opinion. I never say Ron is wrong to voice his opinon about SPEW, but he voice it in a wrong way. Moreover, I do not like his opinion in this topic. We really do not know do Ron support salvary of elve or not. Judge by his character, he is a good caring person. However, wizards society are brainwashed to think Elve are lower lifeform. Ever in today society, there are place that people brainwash other to believe certain group are lower. It is very clear that the German believe Jew are lower during the WWII. Some of them may have good character but simply cannot see why Jews are equal.

It may sound bashing. although I merely consider Ron to be the victim of the society. I still rather he voice his opinion then quiet.

It is a wrong attitude when you do not want to voice you opinion because you do not want to be bash by your friends. It is my believe.

haycheng, excellent post and nice analogy. I agree that Ron is basically decent but unfortunately has acquired many of the wizarding world’s biases. It will therefore be harder for him to get past his blindness regarding the House Elves than it would ever be for Hermione or Harry, who has already begun to see and to agree with Hermione’s perspective in his thoughts [Yule ball feast, the hearing at MoM]. Ron is what we refer to as a benign racist rather than a conscious racist, meaning if confronted with a situation very close to home, he may realise the error of his ways. For example, if a House Elf saves his life or similar. On the other hand, plenty of benign racists have ended up unwittingly [?] doing horrible things.

And I have wanted to say that I very much agree with your assessment of the need for Ron to voice his opinion in any situation that may affect Harry’s survival. For water-under-bridge situations, Ron’s approach may be best. However, failing to strongly state his opinion in every situation where Harry might die or be hurt, it seems instead that Ron doesn’t care. Does he really think Harry so petty as to break the friendship or refuse to speak to Ron? Harry has never initiated such behaviour. And I can’t believe for a moment that Ron doesn’t care about Harry’s survival. Nor that he thinks Hermione is really impressed by meek behaviour. And does Ron really think that Harry wouldn’t tolerate a dispute if his life is potentially at risk? I think the row ban applied to petty bickering.

So what’s really going on? IMO Ron has still not dealt with his envy of Harry, despite Ron’s personal gains in OoP. It is this internal conflict that prevents Ron from consistently speaking his mind and/or contradicting Harry on issues pertaining to Harry’s survival. This implies that he sees Harry as competition [for fame and acclaim, for female attention, re: sport, and now even re: academics since Harry’s stepped up a bit], and as a much stronger competitor on most fronts that Ron himself is, rather than just a best mate. This may prove very integral to the plot in book 6 and may also prove very divisive and thus dangerous to one or more of the trio.

And who’s right re: SPEW

GilyAnn
So Ron yes, as everyone else (including Dumbledore), consider Elf’s not entirely human. Something that if Hermione had patient could actually make see Ron that is not entirely true.

She is tricking them, she doesn’t take into account the Elf’s feelings who clearly don’t want to be set free. That’s not really nice of her. If she ‘really’ considers them with feelings then let them (the Elf’s) be the one’s who make the decision if they want to be free.

So, in sum, Hermione needs more diplomacy, whilst Ron needs an egalitarian social awareness [consciousness-raising] and a broader [less biased] world view. Okay, fair enough, but at 15, which is easier, to change your worldview, your ethics and your impulses towards others, or to change your strategy? My odds favour Hermione, as she’s already played with a few strategies and is already learning to be more tolerant of others’ beliefs. Of course I still hold out hope for Ron, and change is always possible, but for certain it’s more difficult to change your character.

GilyAnn, you have a point in that I think all would agree Hermione has not yet hit upon the best method all round, one which gives House Elves equal rights, social inclusion, and consideration for their preferences such that they are ‘on board’ with the cause for their freedom. However, it’s also true that their world view has been limited and damaged by their position, and that their minds are not accustomed to expectations of freedom and choice, so to limit the House Elves to what their current worldview supports for themselves is to simply maintain the status quo. Hermione is trying to expand the circle of inclusion, which requires seeing what the world can be in future and not simply what it is at present. This issue is far bigger than whether or not Ron [or whomever] approves of her methods, which I feel is irrelevant until and unless Ron [or whomever] actually signs on board to help her with this cause, at which point his input would probably be welcome if sincere and supportive of the end goals. BTW, Dumbledore seemed against the enslavement of house elves and in favour of Hermione’s position. Althoug he has not yet dealt with the situation at Hogwarts, surely he realises that the solution must be more global in nature.

What Ron is opposed is the principle of imposing your point of view on others. Which is a funny thing because that was one of the problems with the jews-hitler mess. Thinking that because you are right everyone else is wrong.

??? Sorry, who was right? Am thinking you might want the opportunity to clarify this analogy.

Cheers all, and well done all round!

DumbledoreTheWise

September 7th, 2003, 5:25 pm

Someone makes a joke-----we giggle----how does this reflect our character? EVERYONE giggles at jokes; even Hermione. Ginny and Hermione are nothing alike are they.....
So she is not Hermione; we all somehow knew that before OotP. Again, this doesn’t display Ginny’s character.
Actually, in the situations I'm talking about, "EVERYONE" didn't laugh, the text expressly states that Ginny did. I'm not trying to prove Ginny is better than Hermione or any bunch of bull like that. I'm simply stating that MOST of these situations involve JKR directly stating that Ginny laughs, it say something like "Ginny giggled." it does NOT say "Ginny and Mrs. Weasley giggled." I was pointing out that this is omething Ginny does often, so it is implied that Ginny has a lighthearted-ness about her. Why is it against text to say that? I disagree, I think that it is little things like that that give you a pretty good clue about her character.
Can you give an example where it states between books 1—4 that Ginny acts like Fred and George? I seem to remember a couple of instances where she gets annoyed with them.......
She is outside giggling in Book 4 as Charlie and Bill smash the tables into each other.
Giggling at smashing tables does not indicate whatsoever about one’s character.
I didn't say she acted like them. I said that the text implied from when she "giggled" or from the few words she said, I got the impression she was **more** like Fred and George than Percy. That was my example.
You see, my points here are to show that what we see in big amounts in Book 5 was actually being shown in small amounts throughout 1-4.
Really? I seem to find instances where she doesn’t find George and Fred funny at all. In CoS, for example, Fred and George took turns trying to cheer her up by dressing up with boils and fur. Ginny seemed to find that extremely annoying. She didn’t agree with their sense of humor then, did she.
No she didn't, but I already brought that up. If ou suspected you were the one doing it, would you giggle?

She looks up to her older brother; again, this isn’t a unique characteristic of Ginny’s; most little sisters do look up to their older siblings. Unless you get the squabbling types who act like Ron and Hermione, but then again, that is a whole other thread.
I wasn't trying to say that Ginny was unique or anything. I was simply stating, that agian, this is something we have small hints about in Books 1-4, and that we can confirm via Book 5.

Wouldn’t you say that all the students and teachers at Hogwarts were “concerned” about the Basilisk’s victims? Except the Slytherins of course. As far as her reacting sensitively to Fred's and George's jokes, we all know the reason for it don't we.
Yes we know the reason, and I'm sure most were concerned. Some weren't, like Malfoy, but that's different. I was saying that Ginny has expressed continued sadness and guilt.

Harry and Ron were making fun of her date to the ball; you’d think she would say something about it. After Ron made his suggestion about going to the ball with Harry, she looked extremely miserable when she told them that she had already said yes to Neville. Not too much of a soft spot is there. Perhaps after the ball, Ginny began to really understand Neville and like him as a friend; but then again, we don’t know do we. Why? Because JKR never made the effort to show us that.
Actually, we do kind of know. Here are some examples.
Page 185, Scholastic edition
Neville chuckled. Luna turned her pale eyes upon him instead.
"And I don't know who you are."
"I'm nobody," said Neville hurriedly.
"No, you're not," said Ginny sharply. "Neville Longbottom--Luna Lovegood. Luna's in my year, but in Ravenclaw."
And page 742,
There was a commotion outside and several large Slytherins entered, each gripping Ron, Ginny, Luna, and -to Harry's bewilderment- Neville, who was trapped in a stranglehold by Crabbe and looked in imminent danger of suffocation. All four of them had been gagged.
"Got 'em all," said Warrington, shoving Ron roughly forward into the room. "That one," he poked a thick finger at Neville "tried to stop me taking her," he pointed at Ginny, who was trying to kick the shins of the large Slytheringirl holding her, "so I brought him along to."
I thin kthere are other instances but for the sake of argument we'll stick with these two, one of Ginny standing up for Neville and vice versa. It seems to me that JKR ***DID*** take the time to point this out to us. But I digress, and agree, Neville rocks.
Actually, it wasn’t her attitude that shut Ron and Harry up, but her reminder of their dateless status. Here’s the quote. You see; fiery Ginny had to tell them three times to shut up before they finally did...such a sharp contrast to book five when she suddenly became "coolly".
yes, it was the way she said it and it was what she said. her attitude allowed her to be witty and shut them up. She told them not to laugh, and when they didn't listen, she shut them up with her wit.

The only thing she proved to echo Harry was his stupidity. She had been told that by Mr. Weasley never to trust anything that can think for itself. Harry, on the other hand, was totally clueless about wizarding items. To say she was independent is to avoid cannon. She was holding Mrs. Weasley’s hand in King Cross in SS/PS. In CoS, she was again, an image of a little girl when she ran away from Malfoy when he teased her about the Singing Valentine. In GoF, she was holding Fred’s hand when they were running away from the death-eaters after the QWC. As far as pride, we have never seen any incident where she had to defend her own pride prior to OotP. So it was your assumption.
Just because someone held her hnad does not make her dependent. i'm specifically talking about her personality because I was arguing that she seems to have a lot of pride and perhaps this was the reason she refused the help available to her in Book 2. She did stupid things instead of what might have been the better course, but she was embarrassed and afraid to tell, and it didn't help. Sure, this is my interpretation, but I think text supports it atleast a little. Then I mentioned that she seems to follow a similar pattern in Book 5 in the DoM scene. I was making a parallel that this is something Harry does as well, even the fake Moody notices it. "You have a streak of pride and independence that could have ruined it all."

We are discussing Ginny’s characterization before OotP; anything that happens in OotP is irrelevant to our discussion.
No, sorry. We (or atleast I) am discussing how her characterization in books 1-4 fits in well with her characterization in Book 5, looking at what I consider hints of her personality. Since you disagree that these are hints, I understand your point,but IMO book 5 is VERY relevant here.

What you were showing were general characteristics that doesn’t reflect Ginny’s true character in any way. What you were showing were trivial things that any normal person would do in Ginny’s situation, specifically, laughing at jokes. Really, laughing shouldn’t be considered as a unique characteristic; or there would be a whole lot of mournful people in the world.
Once again, I'm not trying to prove that Ginny is "special" or "unique." I'm showing that through the trivial things, I beleive JKR was giving us hints, so that once we were TRULY introduced to her character later, we could read the earlier books and pick these things out. And give the more careful readers some hints along the way.

Um not exactly. Near the end of PoA, Fudge displayed his stubbornness in executing Buckbeak; in the end of PoA, Fudge again displayed his distrusting nature when he refused to believe Snape’s story about Harry.
He refused to believe Snape when he was yelling and freaking out? Well, I would too. I didn't ignore this, I said the "beginning of PoA." then end shows us some telltale signs that we don't (see my earlier post) TRULY see until GoF.
The word “still” is significant. Ginny once thought of Harry as the “Boy who Lived” didn’t she. Hermione didn’t. That says a lot about the two different characters.
Who says she didn't?She first meets Harry on the train, informing him that at that point she had "read all about him." I really don't think Harry's personality was in the Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts, she most likely read about the Boy Who Lived. Later she even makes a comment, I believe, directed at Harry, about the fact that he was the one who vanquished Voldemort. I don't think it's unfair to argue that Hermione knew him as the "Boy Who Lived" until Halloween when they became friends. Ginny didn't have the opportunity to get to know him as quickly.

Yet she was also vague, distant, dignified, business-like, brisk and frowning.
She was brisk, "dignified" when talking to Ron, with a "slight frown" and "almost pitying" when talking to Harry. To me, more telling is the way she scowled when Fleur kissed Ron on the cheek (a LOT more innocent than a kiss on the lips), and how she couldn't meet Ron's eyes and blushed ridiculously heavily when talking about visiting Viktor over the summer. I pick "blushing and embarrrassed, and scowling" over "business like" when talking about girls and what is telling about feelings.

Instead she comes to Harry’s rescue. She gave him advice and had a heart-to-heart. She wants Harry to be happy. Yes, it is very telling; it just shows how much Hermione cares for Harry.
Of course she cares for Harry. She is his friend. Why does platonic frienship not incorporate caring for H/Hr shippers?

Cho: He laughed, but he didn’t deny it; I remember he even defended Hermione from Cho. From Cho’s POV, it was always “Darling Hermione”
Frankly, the whole Krum, Mrs. Weasley, Cho thing and "denying it" is a stupid, fruitless and low argument in my POV. Saying "Harry didn't deny it" is really desperate evidence for your ship. H/G fans use it in the Flourish and Blotts sequence with Ginny, and I think that's a load of dung too. But if you want to consider him denying it important, he did deny it.

Love is not a game. Love should be taken seriously.
The following sequence was very heartfelt and genuine I'm sure. I'm no t sure how this related to our particular discussion, but so be it. :)

I have never said Ron is abusive, easily angered, jealous, or stupid. I have merely provided the facts. It is your interpretation that placed Ron into the abusive, easily angered, jealous, and stupid category. Furthermore, I have never ever said anything about Ron not deserving Hermione’s friendship.
Yes you're a very talented debater, but you needn’t to accuse me for undermining Ron and Hermione’s friendship or bashing Ron’s character, because I didn’t.
Er.....thanks? You are a good debater as well, but do not refute earlier posts of your own. First of all, note that I twice stated that that bit was not specifically directed at you, but at those who take that view. And you implied that Ron was undeserving of her romantically because he "disagreed with her on trivial things", "yelled at her for no good reason", "accused her wrongly of fraterniziung with the enemy," and "sent her to her dormitory crying more times than anyone" or something like that. I'm saying that presenting it like this is very one sided, make Ron out to be insensitive to support the H/Hr ship.

How?
Ron looked very guilty and sad when Hagrid informed them that Hermione had come down to the cabin crying "a fair few times" when they wouldn't talk to her. Hagird specifically talked about the Crookshanks/Scabbers fiasco, and he also said something like "Really upset, she was, when Black nearly sbaeed yeh Ron." When they make up, Ron pledges to help Hermione and she throws her arms around him and apologizes.

Where does it say that Harry wanted to strangle Ron? Also, funny how Hermione supposedly defended Ron, but ends up staying by Harry’s side. Oh yes, what happened to book 2? I guess Hermione’s not consistent with her genuine concern for Ron, unlike her complete devotion to Harry throughout all five books.
Harry wanted to "give Ron a good kick up the -----", and mentioned several times how angry he felt. When in Book 2 is Hermione not concerned for Ron?

Can you point out an incident where they truly resolved a problem, not just abandon it?

Well, like I said, I don't have text with me, besides Bokk 5, but let me think.
The Grawp situation, they didn't argue, they resolved the problem. I really don't want to type it out, but page 705, when they talk abotut the promise they made to Hagrid about Grawp. They resolve it without arguing.
The house elf hat thing--in this situation Ron is actually being the rational one. He is being sensitive to the feelings of the house elves and setting them freee against their will. In Book four a little and in Book 5 he is the one who thinks of their emotions, he tries to explain to Hermione, but she's too caught up in idealism to be flexible on the issue. tie this in with what JKR said about "Hermione offending those she wasnts to help." I know that last bit was babble, but it's nto always Ron who starts the arguments, and it's not always Hermione who is being reasonable.

Nia

September 7th, 2003, 5:52 pm

Excellent posts Noddwyd, Haycheng, Fabiana, Flying Phoenix, Earendil and Evaluna (nice meeting you too :) ) BlackKnight86, I simply love your sense of logic!
Prongs, Sr., I owe you a response.

Davydee recently posed this query:

That in mind - here's a conundrum, I'd like to pose to all the good shipmates of HMS Harmony:

1. Is it suggested or alluded to in canon that Ron is physically attracted to Hermione?

If you answer 'Yes':

2. Where is it?

Alternatively, if you answer 'No':

3. In the absence of Ron being physically attracted to Hermione what other explanation is there for his feelings towards her?

As always, Daveydee, you lay things out so logically. You are making a very valid point with your little poll and it is such an intelligent, non combative way of finding out what people think. Well done!

I’m not quite certain if "physically attracted" is quite the way to define Ron’s feelings for Hermione. It is more complicated than that. I think my answer would have to hinge on how I perceive Ron’s actions throughout the whole Yule Ball fiasco. This will be a bit verbose, I hope you don’t mind. ;)

Ron has two best friends at Hogwarts, Harry and Hermione and an exceptionally deep sense of loyalty. During the three prior years the trio had known each other, there was a pattern and a sameness to their interactions. Everything was comfortable and perfectly predictable. It was all for one and one for all. Ron had sworn upon his life, his allegiance to Harry in PoA. That was no small thing and I think it is dismissed too readily in the fandom.

Now comes the Goblet of Fire and the Tri Wizard Tournament. Harry’s name has obviously been put into the Goblet and Harry has no explanation. I think Ron’s reaction here was not entirely jealousy as some of my good shipmates contend, but a feeling of deep, deep betrayal. Harry had done something without him, and not a year after he’d offered his life to protect his friend. He feels Harry has broken a sacred trust with him. Then, when the two of them are separated during their falling out, Hermione seems to be quite absent from his life too. From canon, we get the impression that she is spending most of her time with Harry, but we have none of Ron's feelings on this matter.

After the first task, the boys manage to patch things up and Hermione is brought to tears of relief. It seems things are back to normal—yet, there is that undercurrent of tension…

Yule Ball time.

Ron, very attracted to the beautiful part-veela Fleur, gets up the courage to ask her and is summarily rejected, quashed and rebuffed. Ouch! Now comes the common room scene. Ron is being soothed by his sister, Ginny, Harry is moping over his own rejection by Cho. So far, so good, they are sharing misery. Cool. Then in walks Hermione. The trio is all together—all for one and one for all, right?
“Hermione,” Ron has his epiphany, “Neville’s right---you are a girl…”

He then tells her that she can come with ONE OF THEM:

"Well---you can come with one of us!"

This statement to me is very telling and it fits in with Ron’s concept of loyalty. IMO He is not thinking romance here, only a way out of a sticky situation. I don’t think he intentionally meant to be cruel, he is simply not thinking at all here—not about how Hermione might feel—about how it feels to be the not-so-pretty brainy girl that no boy sees as a female--who sometimes does get called a 'troll.' behind her back.

Hermione, however, by being asked to the Ball by Krum, has gained a certain amount of psychological independence from the boys and she comes back at Ron with a volley of stinging remarks that leave him flummoxed. And, to top this all off, lo and behold, Hermione has a date that is NOT with himself or Harry. She has never kept life’s little details from him before and it is quite aggravating. He doesn’t know what has gotten into her.

At the ball, Hermione is with Vicktor Krum. Vicktor Krum, the international Quidditch star. This is not how Hermione is supposed to be, she is supposed to be sitting with himself and Harry, drinking punch and making her usual, know-it-all remarks, maybe with a book on the side. She’s not supposed to look like this—all grown up, glamorous and interested in eighteen-year-olds, for goodness sake. She’s supposed to be THEIR Hermione. What’s his world coming to? It’s betrayal, that’s what it is! Another betrayal! Why it’s too much to take in just one year!

Although Ron is a tremendous chess player it is rather ironic that in his own life, he seems to be cursed with a type of tunnel vision--he cannot see the "whole board" at once. He is a very direct and to-the-point kind of guy, who doesn’t always take the time to consider alternate approaches to a problem, or that there even may be alternate explanations for what appears to be the truth. Please consider this scene from CoS:

The Weasleys have just come to rescue Harry and take him to the Burrow:

“What’s going on? Said Ron. “Why haven’t you been answering my letters? I’ve asked you to stay about twelve times, and then Dad came home and said you’d got an official warning for using magic in front of Muggles---“

“It wasn’t me—and how did he know?”
“He works for the Ministry,” said Ron. “You know we’re not supposed to do spells outside school---“

To Ron, Harry’s explanation is not valid because the evidence he has is contradictory. We see this kind of thinking on Ron’s part over and over again in the series. (Remember his accusing Hermione of brewing love potions in GoF?) At the Yule Ball, all the evidence that Ron has seems logical to him: Hermione has constantly been goaded about her looks by the Slytherins, she has had no, (none, zilch, zero, nada, nichts) male attention in three years she has been at Hogwarts. All of a sudden a wildly popular international Quidditch star wants to take her out. He chooses her over all the most beautiful girls at Hogwarts. Obviously, to Ron’s way of thinking, he’s trying to get something on Harry. Obviously, to Ron’s way of thinking, Hermione has been duped and blinded by Krum’s celebrity into pouring out her soul about Harry to him or worse, using her brains, which are the common property of the Trio, to aid the enemy… She’s supposed to be more loyal than that!

I don’t think we see Ron’s remarks on how Hermione looks, because they aren’t important to him at that time. What’s important to him is loyalty and friendship and I think that is what all the kafuffle was about to his way of thinking.

Does Ron have feelings for Hermione? Before OoP, I would have said yes, badly placed feelings since they included possessiveness and jealousy, but feelings, yes. Now, however, I’m not so sure. His reactions to Ginny dating Michael Corner were so similar you could almost superimpose the dialog. From this perspective, Davydee’s very intelligent thesis on subconscious feelings is perfectly valid. And this is why I never say that a Ron and Hermione pairing doesn’t make sense. From this perspective, it could be written to make perfect sense. I just don’t subscribe to it because I’m hoping JKR is going to write something more substantive in the way of romance—something with real meaning and a real message.

I have tried to look at this whole Yule Ball incident from the perspective of Ron/Hermione shippers but I simply cannot see that Ron is suddenly so taken with Hermione. He loves her, I’m certain of that—as he loves Harry. But I don't see his actions as being completely guided by jealousy. I don't think they are purposefully mean-spirited either, although they are terribly, terribly thoughtless and cruel. Is there jealousy? I believe there is some, but that is not exactly the ruling passion here. Sometimes very emotional people—people who wear their hearts on their sleeves, as Ron does, say horrible, cutting things without realizing the hurt and devastation they cause, and sometimes what we think we perceive is not always where they are coming from.

Cheers!
Nia

GilyAnn

September 7th, 2003, 6:03 pm

So, in sum, Hermione needs more diplomacy, whilst Ron needs an egalitarian social awareness [consciousness-raising] and a broader [less biased] world view. Okay, fair enough, but at 15, which is easier, to change your worldview, your ethics and your impulses towards others, or to change your strategy? My odds favour Hermione, as she’s already played with a few strategies and is already learning to be more tolerant of others’ beliefs. Of course I still hold out hope for Ron, and change is always possible, but for certain it’s more difficult to change your character.

GilyAnn, you have a point in that I think all would agree Hermione has not yet hit upon the best method all round, one which gives House Elves equal rights, social inclusion, and consideration for their preferences such that they are ‘on board’ with the cause for their freedom. However, it’s also true that their world view has been limited and damaged by their position, and that their minds are not accustomed to expectations of freedom and choice, so to limit the House Elves to what their current worldview supports for themselves is to simply maintain the status quo. Hermione is trying to expand the circle of inclusion, which requires seeing what the world can be in future and not simply what it is at present. This issue is far bigger than whether or not Ron [or whomever] approves of her methods, which I feel is irrelevant until and unless Ron [or whomever] actually signs on board to help her with this cause, at which point his input would probably be welcome if sincere and supportive of the end goals. BTW, Dumbledore seemed against the enslavement of house elves and in favour of Hermione’s position. Althoug he has not yet dealt with the situation at Hogwarts, surely he realises that the solution must be more global in nature.

I can't believe that we are getting somewhere! I think it's easier to slightly change your strategy but not forget the principle.
We want to free the Elf's why not start by getting them better work conditions. You see Hermione only has to listen to Ron make him see that Elf's are human also. Perhaps showed him how some wizards mistreat their Elf's. Make him imagine how it is to be mistreated. Appeal to his senses. Harry can even picture that. He saw it with Dobby. Ron is a nice guy. He didn't want Buckbeak to loose his head. A few mind pictures of that on the house Elf's issue and Im positive that Hermione would have his first allied. She just needs to convince him and I AM SURE that Hermione can do that.

I agree this issue is far bigger than Ron not agreeing or agreeing. But because it is so big; Hermione has to dig in from the sides and go easy. Presuring people into her mind of thinking will only make the other people more resistant to her opinion. We need to go easy on it, because Hermione could find herself into a world of trouble if she is not carefull. Any of those wizards can set her up for something bad and then she won't ever be able to help the Elf's.

I think that Hermione and Ron make a good theme. What one would not think off the other one will. This if only Hermione took Ron seriously and listen to him.

??? Sorry, who was right? Am thinking you might want the opportunity to clarify this analogy.

Hermione thinks she is right (which I agree) but that doesn't give her the right to impose her views on other people.

Gily Ann

FlyingPhoenix

September 7th, 2003, 6:13 pm

Thats strange first I can't post now its works. I went insanse if It gos on like that.

Anyway first thank you evaluna and great post like so many other people here around.

A big :welcome to Lord-thingy and fabiana.

Now I know its late see I couldn't post here since yesterday to DD.

1. Is it suggested or alluded to in canon that Ron is physically attracted to Hermione?

He isn't attracted to her. For this I have some proof from the canon or rather an interpretation which one of my shipmates did.
For once we have the scene as Hermione did turn half into cat. Ron did back away from her. It was very possible that this could be permanent that say its possible that Ron would turn around if Hermione did stay like that.
Than we have the trolls in GoF there we get once more a girl have to look good or attracted before Ron go with her. Now we can guess that Hermione is pretty though she don't show it like Parvati or Lavender. But still she isn't that much beautiful that Ron would think at her at first if it comes to go to the ball.

So he go after looking and than how is the person

sone

September 7th, 2003, 6:45 pm

As far as the house elf issue goes between Ron and Hermione goes, the reason those two do not listen to each other is because they are patronizing each other most of the time. They're both correct in many ways on the issue but everyone should know (definitely on this thread) it does not matter how well your point is explained, if you are patronizing that person, you might as well be talking to a brick wall because that is as far as you are getting your point across. Ron has called S.P.E.W. "spew" so many times, Hermione will not even bother listening to him anymore even when he is dead on right. If he had gave it a bit more respect, Hermione would of been more inclined to listen to him. Oh Ron will tell her things she needs to hear but not without talking at or down to her, hence Hermione just ignores him.

Hermione is not above this either. She does the exact same thing to Ron. She talked at Ron when he unknowningly screwed up a conservation between Harry and Cho. Ron did not even know what he did or what made Hermione so upset but she didn't care to explain that without tearing him down. More keen to **** him off than anything else. Ron is not going to listen himself being insulted no matter how right Hermione is, nor should he. Then there is the "Voldemort" issue. "Stop whimpering Ron", "don't be so pathetic Ron".....leave the boy alone Hermione. If Ron does not want to say his name, that is his choice. It does not make him coward. He deserves better and on her behalf, so does she.

You do not see this with Harry and Hermione. There is not this bitterness between them where they resort to talking down or at each other. Even when it gets close to that, they recoil because that is not what they're trying to do. We all saw how apprehensive Hermione was telling Harry that he had a "saving people thing" problem and it was clearly used as a last resort. Not only that, but she actually took the time to explain why is was not a criticism. When Hermione talks to Harry even in a argument, there is humility and respect. Like an argument is something she wants to avoid with Harry, not egg on. When Harry is angry at her, she does not respond with indignation, but she is rather upset in a different manner. When Harry went on a tirade in 12G, Hermione actually was reduced to tears. When Harry was yelling at Ron and Hermione about him being good at DADA, she was stricken. When he glared at her after their "meeting" with Grawp, again she was reduced to tears. There is more examples but the point is, Hermione can hardly stand to have Harry angry at her or against her. This is why Hermione takes time to explain things to him. This is very similar to how Harry cannot quite look Hermione in the eye when he is lying to her or when he fails at something. He can hardly stand to see disappointment in Hermione's face. In PoA, the Quidditch match against Ravenclaw I thought was very important. They're not even speaking to each other because of some issues they're having and yet Harry asks Hermione if she even came to the match and she answers with "of course I did." They both obviously cared enough to see each other.

evaluna

September 7th, 2003, 7:11 pm

GilyAnn
I think that Hermione and Ron make a good theme. What one would not think off the other one will. This if only Hermione took Ron seriously and listen to him.

Perhaps. It's true that Hermione is risking her life, potentially, for her cause, and probably will eventually need the support of the wizarding world, as they hold all the cards over the House Elves at present. Re: team, we see in OoP that Harry and Hermione already make a great team in many situations. But I don't see Hr/R making a great team until, as you say 1) she can take his input and I would add 2) he has something worthy to say re: the larger issue of oppressed non-human magical brethren, e.g. House Elves for one. I really do think it's that important. And neither one treats the other's input with a great deal of respect on many occasions, which doesn't bode well for common ground, in general.

Nia
I don’t think we see Ron’s remarks on how Hermione looks, because they aren’t important to him at that time. What’s important to him is loyalty and friendship and I think that is what all the kafuffle was about to his way of thinking.

Does Ron have feelings for Hermione? Before OoP, I would have said yes, badly placed feelings since they included possessiveness and jealousy, but feelings, yes. Now, however, I’m not so sure. His reactions to Ginny dating Michael Corner were so similar you could almost superimpose the dialog. From this perspective, Davydee’s very intelligent thesis on subconscious feelings is perfectly valid. And this is why I never say that a Ron and Hermione pairing doesn’t make sense. From this perspective, it could be written to make perfect sense. I just don’t subscribe to it because I’m hoping JKR is going to write something more substantive in the way of romance—something with real meaning and a real message.

Nia, awesome. Great post! I really liked your detailed presentation on Ron's impulses regarding Hermione [and Harry]. This is actually a very fair review of Ron's motivations. I agree with you, Earendil and Perdita that Ron is likely motivated at least as much by possessiveness -- whether from misplaced loyalty, as you say, or from misplaced protectiveness regarding the women in his sphere, as I thought might also be the case [Hermione, Ginny] -- as by jealousy per se [over Hermione]. I too am not convinced that Ron has any deep feeling toward Hermione and that whatever portion may be attributed to jealousy over Hermione is probably rooted in a more superficial "like" rather than a deep feeling of love. Ron's misplaced loyalty [or protectiveness], however, may run very deep, and with that I certainly would agree. And I agree with your reasons for not supporting Hr/R; in all honesty, I'm looking for something more from the series as well. I personally think Ron is still resolving suppressed feelings of envy with regard to Harry, but these run the gamut and, along with these other things, may or may not consciously involve Hermoine in Ron's mind. In either case, Ron's envy of Harry stands on its own regardless of Hermione, just as [IMO] Ron's possessive and accusatory behaviour towards Hermione stands on its own regardless of Harry. That is, Ron has unresolved issues enough with each of them separate from the other. Now, if Hermione and Harry do realise feelings for one another...? Speculation, anyone?

EDIT: sone: really nice post. :tu:

Cheers!

Daveydee

September 7th, 2003, 7:15 pm

Well do you contend that Hermione is aware of Ron’s feelings for her? and as of yet iv seen know jealousy from her either, although you will not agree
I think I’d answer that one in this way:

I believed, before OotP, that Hermione’s efforts over her appearance at the Yule Ball were to make Ron jealous. The previous evening she had remarked to Ron:

’Just because it’s taken you three years to notice I’m a girl, Ron, doesn’t mean no one else has spotted I’m a girl!’ (emphasis JKR).

This says, to me, that that she has at some point, for some undefined period of time, been wondering why Ron (and specifically Ron as denoted by the emphasis in the text on ‘you….Ron’ and ‘…no one else’) hasn’t noticed her as a girl. The logical implication of which is that Hermione wants Ron to have noticed her. However, as we know, things aren’t handled that well by Ron thus frustrating Hermione yet further.

On to the Ball itself. There she is, dazzling in all her finery. Why go to such great lengths? She doesn’t need to impress Krum – he’s already got her as his date. She doesn’t need to do it for herself – she’s never been one to bother unduly over her appearance, despite the occasion. She doesn’t need to impress Harry (though he clearly notices the remarkable makeover) – she doesn’t perceive him as being swayed by such superficial things as physical appearance. However, knowing that Ron is indeed susceptible to the charms of a pretty girl, and still frustrated by his cack-handed efforts of the previous evening, and knowing that she will more than likely be outperforming Fleur (Ron’s hitherto eye-candy) she is sending a clear message to Ron – ‘look at what you could have had’; if only he’d noticed before that she was a girl and that he hadn’t messed up the previous evening.

Fast forward now to OotP and this scene:

‘Harry, you’re worse than Ron….well no you’re not’, she sighed, as Ron came stumping into the hall splattered with mud and looking grumpy. ‘Look – you upset Cho when you said you were going to meet me, so she tried to make you jealous. It was her way of trying to find out how much you liked her’

This, of course following Harry’s account of his disastrous date with Cho, during which Hermione points out all the things he should have done, but didn’t; arriving at the conclusion that in terms of how to woo a girl, Harry is almost ‘…worse than Ron’, but not quite.

Not quite? How so? What experience of Ron has Hermione had that enables her to make this comparison and enables her to relate to the idea that Cho was trying to make Harry jealous and trying to find out much Harry liked her?

The Yule Ball, of course. Just as, according to Hermione, Harry upset Cho – so Ron had upset her. Just as Cho had tried to make Harry jealous – so Hermione had tried to make Ron jealous. And just as this was Cho’s way of trying to find out how much Harry liked her – so Hermione’s presentation and companion at the Ball, and her remarks at the subsequent brawl, was her way of trying to find out how much Ron liked her. Except, of course that Hermione’s frustrations are left unresolved because Ron failed to follow up on her clear hints – leading her to conclude that Harry, though almost as bad at noticing what a girl is looking for, is not quite as bad as Ron.

So to go back to your original question Buckbeak I suspect that Hermione’s view is this:

She feels that Ron may have shown the first signs of interest in her just prior to the Yule Ball, which interests her because she has for some time been concerned that Ron has failed to ‘notice’ her. Sensing this, and compounded by his insensitive behaviour in the common room, she goes to uncharacteristic lengths to draw Ron’s feelings out by attempting to make him feel jealous at the Ball. Afterwards, having felt that she has at least drawn some reaction, she invites Ron to ask her first next time there is a ball. Over a year later she is able to recount all this, still believing Ron to be 'useless with girls', and relate it to Harry’s situation with Cho, thus indicating that Ron still plays on her mind. I suspect that Hermione is aware that Ron has some feelings for her and given her own view of him continues to be frustrated by this, though I suspect she does not feel that they are all that strong, which in her mind, explains his lack of forthrightness.

Of course, we know differently.

Ecthelion and Mad I – my avatar is the official emblem of HMS Heron. The real HMS Heron – a ship in the Royal Navy. Why? D’you want one? :D

EDIT:

Ah, Nia. I've just spotted your post on the previous page. You appear to have anticipated what I have said here about the motivations of the participants at the Yule Ball. Are you a legilimens?

Thanks for addressing the question that I posed some pages back concerning the oft-flouted contention that Ron's feelings for Hermione are based purely on physical attraction. You have presented alternative reasoning, as have most other H/Hr folk, and those are all valid points which will no doubt be the subject of much subsequent debate. The purpose of my original question, as I think you perceived, was on the narrow issue of physical attraction. Thanks once again for addressing that question. I'm happy to have exploded the myth. :D

To wit:

So he go after looking and than how is the person
Although clearly not where Hermione is concerned

DumbledoreTheWise

September 7th, 2003, 7:21 pm

You do not see this with Harry and Hermione. There is not this bitterness between them where they resort to talking down or at each other. Even when it gets close to that, they recoil because that is not what they're trying to do. We all saw how apprehensive Hermione was telling Harry that he had a "saving people thing" problem and it was clearly used as a last resort. Not only that, but she actually took the time to explain why is was not a criticism. When Hermione talks to Harry even in a argument, there is humility and respect. Like an argument is something she wants to avoid with Harry, not egg on. When Harry is angry at her, she does not respond with indignation, but she is rather upset in a different manner. When Harry went on a tirade in 12G, Hermione actually was reduced to tears. When Harry was yelling at Ron and Hermione about him being good at DADA, she was stricken. When he glared at her after their "meeting" with Grawp, again she was reduced to tears. There is more examples but the point is, Hermione can hardly stand to have Harry angry at her or against her. This is why Hermione takes time to explain things to him. This is very similar to how Harry cannot quite look Hermione in the eye when he is lying to her or when he fails at something. He can hardly stand to see disappointment in Hermione's face. In PoA, the Quidditch match against Ravenclaw I thought was very important. They're not even speaking to each other because of some issues they're having and yet Harry asks Hermione if she even came to the match and she answers with "of course I did." They both obviously cared enough to see each other.
Sone, I see your point.
BUT, Harry and Ron are very different people. Therefore, Ron and Hermione have a very different relationship dynamic than Harry and Hermione. Within this dynamic, Hermione and Ron can argue and it is not particularly stressing enough (most of the time) to reduce Hermione to tears. Harry is very different from Ron. Harry doesn't in general stress about the little things, I would say that Ron is even more confrontational. In contrast, Harry, (you might even argue because of the way he grew up) waits until he is at the end of his patience, he explodes when something is *truly* bothering him, when it is VERY important to his happiness or well being, or even someone else's safety.
Because of this, Hermione (being a girl, and girls being very perceptive of these type of things) understands that if Harry is at the point of screaming in her face, it is proabably a significantly bigger issue than house elves. If Hermione is reduced to tears because of an argument she's having with Harry, it's a VERY big issue. Something important, like going after Sirius, or risking his life. She isn't particularly inclined to produce tears when Ron is at odds with her over homework.Though Hermione came to the match, she also was "really upset" when Black "nearly stabbed" Ron. And they weren't on speaking terms then either.

FlyingPhoenix

September 7th, 2003, 7:32 pm

I have a problem and that is what has Hermiones SPEW to do if Ron or Harry falls for her or not?
Allright I agree that both Ron and Harry are rather critical about SPEW but if someone disagree in one thing this don't say its against the ship. For me is it much more important what Ron or Harry think about Hermione as person and not what she do for the SPEW.
Well, right this shows that she cares about such things that this isn't just a fix idea because she still hold on it. I know at this age some people do start things and put them down again but she didn't.
Let say she will have a disagreement with Harry about SPEW this don't say he dislike Hermione for it. It don't say it bring them apart. If Harry wouldn't, just wouldn't and couldn't understand why she do it than I did ask myself if there where else but it isn't like that. He know she mean it well. Something what I don't have by Ron. He seems to be the one who don't understand.

Just try a comparing remember PS/SS how Harry lived by the Dursleys? Just like Kreacher in OotP in Blacks house. Its strange isn't it this image? Harry lived in a cupboard nearlly eleven years had to work or rather owe his relative. Till to the day as Hagrid turns up and said he is a wizard. How was his reaction? Was he like I pack my things and follow in my freedom? No it wasn't like that. He didn't believe it that this could be true but at the end he did go with Hagrid. Just imagine Hagrid did never turn up isn't it possible that Harry would be like a human Kreacher?

Now let take it to Hermione. Let say she is the Hagrid for the elves. Is it still wrong what she do? If so than was it from the beginning wrong to free Harry. Its interesting that JKR shows the elves like Harry was before Hogwarts just like many other elves. Its even interest that Hermione is the one who want free the real elves. Just curious.

sone

September 7th, 2003, 7:59 pm

Sone, I see your point.
BUT, Harry and Ron are very different people. Therefore, Ron and Hermione have a very different relationship dynamic than Harry and Hermione. Within this dynamic, Hermione and Ron can argue and it is not particularly stressing enough (most of the time) to reduce Hermione to tears. Harry is very different from Ron. Harry doesn't in general stress about the little things, I would say that Ron is even more confrontational. In contrast, Harry, (you might even argue because of the way he grew up) waits until he is at the end of his patience, he explodes when something is *truly* bothering him, when it is VERY important to his happiness or well being, or even someone else's safety.
Because of this, Hermione (being a girl, and girls being very perceptive of these type of things) understands that if Harry is at the point of screaming in her face, it is proabably a significantly bigger issue than house elves. If Hermione is reduced to tears because of an argument she's having with Harry, it's a VERY big issue. Something important, like going after Sirius, or risking his life. She isn't particularly inclined to produce tears when Ron is at odds with her over homework.Though Hermione came to the match, she also was "really upset" when Black "nearly stabbed" Ron. And they weren't on speaking terms then either.

Very true. However, I am not denying that Hermione was upset about Ron nearly being killed by Sirius or even that she did not missed him. She did very much and he her. But Ron and Hermione did not even speak to each other still. If one of my best friends was nearly killed, I would definitely want to see him or her as soon as possible, to hell with the falling out they had. You would think that would their silly argument about pets in perspective but it doesn't. The only time it comes up is when Hagrid talks to Ron and Harry and when Harry wants to go back to Hogsmeade and Hermione is worried about him getting killed. Not that she was not very upset about Ron nearly getting killed but not so upset that she still would not speak to him. What I am saying is that Harry wanted to know if she had even been there to see him play against Ravenclaw. He did not leave it up to chance or whatever. He was going to find out. After he did, he saw how tired she was and wanted her to eat some food. See my point? He wanted to talk to her despite everything that was going on because his concern for her was above such petty issues about rats, cats and broomsticks. It became irrelevant to him. Ron is still up in arms about his rat. I would be even more up in arms if she did not at least see me about me nearly dying.

FreckledApples

September 7th, 2003, 8:15 pm

I believed, before OotP, that Hermione’s efforts over her appearance at the Yule Ball were to make Ron jealous. The previous evening she had remarked to Ron:

’Just because it’s taken you three years to notice I’m a girl, Ron, doesn’t mean no one else has spotted I’m a girl!’ (emphasis JKR).

This says, to me, that that she has at some point, for some undefined period of time, been wondering why Ron (and specifically Ron as denoted by the emphasis in the text on ‘you….Ron’ and ‘…no one else’) hasn’t noticed her as a girl. The logical implication of which is that Hermione wants Ron to have noticed her. However, as we know, things aren’t handled that well by Ron thus frustrating Hermione yet further.

On to the Ball itself. There she is, dazzling in all her finery. Why go to such great lengths? She doesn’t need to impress Krum – he’s already got her as his date. She doesn’t need to do it for herself – she’s never been one to bother unduly over her appearance, despite the occasion. She doesn’t need to impress Harry (though he clearly notices the remarkable makeover) – she doesn’t perceive him as being swayed by such superficial things as physical appearance. However, knowing that Ron is indeed susceptible to the charms of a pretty girl, and still frustrated by his cack-handed efforts of the previous evening, and knowing that she will more than likely be outperforming Fleur (Ron’s hitherto eye-candy) she is sending a clear message to Ron – ‘look at what you could have had’; if only he’d noticed before that she was a girl and that he hadn’t messed up the previous evening.

OML!!! thats sooo right i never thought of it that way before! gosh now that i think of it it makes soo much sence :clap: :clap: :clap:

sone

September 7th, 2003, 8:37 pm

I definitely disagree. It was not so much a need for Hermione to dress up but a want. Krum out of all the girls in the school chose to go with Hermione and even went so far to tell her that he had been wanting to ask her out for a while but that he had a tough time gathering up the courage (plus my personal theory is that he saw Harry with her often and that could not have been encouraging). He asked her first and was a total gentleman about it. Hermione wanted to look great for herself and for Viktor. It was not a need. Making Ron jealous was the furthest thing from her mind not to mention beneath her.

FlyingPhoenix

September 7th, 2003, 8:38 pm

’Just because it’s taken you three years to notice I’m a girl, Ron, doesn’t mean no one else has spotted I’m a girl!’ (emphasis JKR).

This says, to me, that that she has at some point, for some undefined period of time, been wondering why Ron (and specifically Ron as denoted by the emphasis in the text on ‘you….Ron’ and ‘…no one else’) hasn’t noticed her as a girl. The logical implication of which is that Hermione wants Ron to have noticed her. However, as we know, things aren’t handled that well by Ron thus frustrating Hermione yet further.

On to the Ball itself. There she is, dazzling in all her finery. Why go to such great lengths? She doesn’t need to impress Krum – he’s already got her as his date. She doesn’t need to do it for herself – she’s never been one to bother unduly over her appearance, despite the occasion. She doesn’t need to impress Harry (though he clearly notices the remarkable makeover) – she doesn’t perceive him as being swayed by such superficial things as physical appearance. However, knowing that Ron is indeed susceptible to the charms of a pretty girl, and still frustrated by his cack-handed efforts of the previous evening, and knowing that she will more than likely be outperforming Fleur (Ron’s hitherto eye-candy) she is sending a clear message to Ron – ‘look at what you could have had’; if only he’d noticed before that she was a girl and that he hadn’t messed up the previous evening.

This don't say she want that he, especially he should notice her. Its rather that she did expect to be recorgnise as girl because she is a girl but Ron and only Ron didn't or seem not to get this little fact.

About Hermione's look. Is it possible that she wanted to impress Harry? Why should be only Ron? She wouldn't meet him at first but Harry and she do act as if she mean Harry.
So if I take your theory its gos pretty both ways if not in reality very much more to Harry. Because indeed she did go with Krum. We don't know if someone else by side of Neville did ask Hermione before Krum did. Krum is a champion and everybody knows the champions do open the dance. So she would meet Harry and he would see how she comes in and she could see his reaction unlike to Rons reaction which is pretty behind her back or she don't care.
But I don't follow this way I just can't imagine that Hermione sit down and think to herself "I look today very nice for Ron though my date is Viktor!" I go rather with this "I want to look great and have the time of my live. This are things which follow you a lifetime."
But that my opinion. I do think she do it for herself for a very great deal.

Very true. However, I am not denying that Hermione was upset about Ron nearly being killed by Sirius or even that she did not missed him. She did very much and he her. But Ron and Hermione did not even speak to each other still. If one of my best friends was nearly killed, I would definitely want to see him or her as soon as possible, to hell with the falling out they had. You would think that would their silly argument about pets in perspective but it doesn't. The only time it comes up is when Hagrid talks to Ron and Harry and when Harry wants to go back to Hogsmeade and Hermione is worried about him getting killed. Not that she was not very upset about Ron nearly getting killed but not so upset that she still would not speak to him. What I am saying is that Harry wanted to know if she had even been there to see him play against Ravenclaw. He did not leave it up to chance or whatever. He was going to find out. After he did, he saw how tired she was and wanted her to eat some food. See my point? He wanted to talk to her despite everything that was going on because his concern for her was above such petty issues about rats, cats and broomsticks. It became irrelevant to him. Ron is still up in arms about his rat. I would be even more up in arms if she did not at least see me about me nearly dying.

Great post sone. This is what keep me wonder. Its too obvious that there is a different as I could it even recorgnise or rather point at it anymore. Someone put it once very well in an essay how Ron seems more concerned about things which happen directly against him as to think how other could feel. I don't say he don't care its just he is intolerant against other feelings. Just look how he pushed Hermiones hand by side just to show her lager theets in GoF. He didn't think how she might feel.
Or at the St. Mungos as he did talk to Neville and act absolute intolerant about Nevilles feelings. He is like a elephant in a glass-shop if it comes to such moments. Thats why, another why, Hermione and Ron bicker that much. Its about his intolerants and his thinking he the world turns around him what again explain his jealousy. He never said that his sister had to wear second hand things. He just recorgnise his own misery. He get it only if it jumps into his face how the reality looks like.
Now its for a teenager perfectly normal and Ron has this role in HP to be the normal wizard guy.

Rowena Ravenclaw

September 7th, 2003, 8:39 pm

I have a problem and that is what has Hermiones SPEW to do if Ron or Harry falls for her or not?...Well, right this shows that she cares about such things that this isn't just a fix idea because she still hold on it. I know at this age some people do start things and put them down again but she didn't.

Which is precisely why it's important to any future relationship. Based on her remarks about career possibilities, Hermione intends to dedicate the rest of her life to this cause, which means it's going to be a recurring issue. We know Harry has certain reservations about the idea. He can't keep politely skirting the subject forever. It's not impossible that if he doesn't address his doubts fully and openly with Hermione, it'll eventually explode into one of those major issues.

Just try a comparing remember PS/SS how Harry lived by the Dursleys? Just like Kreacher in OotP in Blacks house. Its strange isn't it this image? Harry lived in a cupboard nearlly eleven years had to work or rather owe his relative. Till to the day as Hagrid turns up and said he is a wizard. How was his reaction? Was he like I pack my things and follow in my freedom? No it wasn't like that. He didn't believe it that this could be true but at the end he did go with Hagrid. Just imagine Hagrid did never turn up isn't it possible that Harry would be like a human Kreacher?

There's an important distinction, though: Harry was more than happy to go with Hagrid. He never seemed in danger of loving the Dursleys. Granted, we can't know exactly what Kreacher's upbringing was--was his twisted affection for the Blacks forced upon him?--but it seems he was raised with a deeply ingrained faithfulness.

A parallel between Dobby and Harry, and thus Harry and Hagrid, sounds perfectly plausible, but that's getting much too far off topic.

Perdita

September 7th, 2003, 8:44 pm

I think I’d answer that one in this way:

I believed, before OotP, that Hermione’s efforts over her appearance at the Yule Ball were to make Ron jealous. The previous evening she had remarked to Ron:

’Just because it’s taken you three years to notice I’m a girl, Ron, doesn’t mean no one else has spotted I’m a girl!’ (emphasis JKR).

This says, to me, that that she has at some point, for some undefined period of time, been wondering why Ron (and specifically Ron as denoted by the emphasis in the text on ‘you….Ron’ and ‘…no one else’) hasn’t noticed her as a girl. <edited>

Hermione only addresses Ron because he is the only one who made the comment of discovery that Hermione is a girl.

Her tone is condescending and is reproachful. If she included Harry in that statement, then she would be reproaching Harry as well. Since Harry did not take part in making that insulting comment, why would Hermione speak to him in a reproachful and condescending manner? That would be unfair to Harry.

That is why Hermione included only Ron in that statement.

Since Hermione's statement is the basis of your theory, I disagree respectfully with the rest of it as well.

And to add, I believe that Hermione dressed up for herself. She respects herself and so she puts high value on how she presents herself at such an important social event. She did it for herself because she has a solid sense of self-worth and dignity.

FlyingPhoenix

September 7th, 2003, 8:50 pm

Which is precisely why it's important to any future relationship. Based on her remarks about career possibilities, Hermione intends to dedicate the rest of her life to this cause, which means it's going to be a recurring issue. We know Harry has certain reservations about the idea. He can't keep politely skirting the subject forever. It's not impossible that if he doesn't address his doubts fully and openly with Hermione, it'll eventually explode into one of those major issues.

Let say Hermione will her whole life trying and free the elves but there is a little problem and that is if I say H/Hr gonna be happen in canon this don't say they will be together till 90 or 150. It just say it will happen because there is still the possible that Harry or Hermione might die at the end of book7. This say it rules this problem of a SPEW which bother Harry what I doubt it even do out. Just because Harry was angered in book5 don't say he can't recorgnise if Hermione is in one point right. Its even possible that after the summer Harry is more aware how right Dumbledore and Hermione are this say there won't be a fight.
To this comes that it is very possible that Hermione will change her thinking about Kreacher and admit it was to late for this elves. You know to old for to change. It can even mean she creat a great dislike against this elves. Its like by humans some you like and other not. But if you want to help humans you don't change your thinking because you one hate, do you?

haycheng

September 7th, 2003, 9:22 pm

To GilyAnn
I never intented to bring SPEW into the love thread. I think we should talk more about it in the SPEW post. If you want to talk about other equality problem, we can also talk about them in Knockturn Alley. I am merely try to point out Ron has not been a good friend to Harry by not voicing his opinion(this is a love thread, I wonder why I want to know about it in the first place:huh:)It is also interesting that in R/Hr arguement, both side refuse to consider each other's opinion. It could be a interesting thing to play out if R/Hr indeed happen. Although i do not believe it will happen, as this is th book of Harry Potter and there is limited screentime for everyone else.

IMHO, we really do not see Harry voice his opinion much. I believe it is either unclear or undecided how Harry view House Elves in general. Both Hermione and Ron are at the extreme end of the issue. I am honestly believe the one who will stand by Hermione side in SPEW issue will be Ginny. Ginny seem to have a more open mind than Ron and have the idea how the wizards view House Elves.

By the way, why cat and Ginny is important. IMHO, it is just some spice about Ginny's character. Cat is generally consider playful, unconsistant. It is also able to avoid danger. Also cat is generally consider less loyal than dog. None of these quality is important in love thread....I dont see cat is importatnt here.

Buckbeak

September 7th, 2003, 10:11 pm

Ok Daveydee, this will have to be in two parts because for some reason its not posting altogether.
I believed, before OotP, that Hermione’s efforts over her appearance at the Yule Ball were to make Ron jealous. The previous evening she had remarked to Ron:
’Just because it’s taken you three years to notice I’m a girl, Ron, doesn’t mean no one else has spotted I’m a girl!’ (emphasis JKR).
This says, to me, that that she has at some point, for some undefined period of time, been wondering why Ron (and specifically Ron as denoted by the emphasis in the text on ‘you….Ron’ and ‘…no one else’) hasn’t noticed her as a girl. The logical implication of which is that Hermione wants Ron to have noticed her. However, as we know, things aren’t handled that well by Ron thus frustrating Hermione yet further.
Well, that margin of text doesn't really prove what your saying to be honest. When I first read that part of GOF and was around the age of Hermione, I saw her retaliation as more a defence of dignity. I'm going to assume that you are a guy right? and as a male you will never fully understand what a female feels like when she's been rejected, you see, we think very differently to you blokes, we absorb stuff like that, and I bet that Ron's treatment of her as a last resort stuck in her mind through that whole Yule ball, she was probably deeply hurt that one of her best friends thought so little of her to first accuse her as a liar and then insult her by treating her as a 'last resort'. I mean be honest with yourself that would hurt right?
Then to add insult to injury he then has the nerve to act as though she hasn't any right to be there at the ball with a date and have a good time. I mean if Ron and Hermione were a few years older than fourteen then we would not be discussing the R/Hr relationship because if an adult male spoke to a women like that there would be no relationship to discuss, its only because of Ron's age that excuses him from being named a 'jerk' for life.
Don't get me wrong I love Ron and all but if he had spoken to me like that, I would have yelled at him, told him to stop being such a narrow-minded pig and if he so desperately wanted to go to the ball with me then he should have asked first and not as a last resort.
On to the Ball itself. There she is, dazzling in all her finery.Why go to such great lengths? She doesn’t need to impress Krum – he’s already got her as his date. She doesn’t need to do it for herself – she’s never been one to bother unduly over her appearance, despite the occasion.
:lol: All I can say on this, is that a girl should never have to have a reason to dress up pretty, even if she's never done it before. I think all the girls here will agree with me on this.
However, knowing that Ron is indeed susceptible to the charms of a pretty girl, and still frustrated by his cack-handed efforts of the previous evening, and knowing that she will more than likely be outperforming Fleur (Ron’s hitherto eye-candy) she is sending a clear message to Ron – ‘look at what you could have had’;
Ok i'm sort of going to take offence to that, so what your saying is the only reason Hermione dressed up nice, is because of Ron, a guy. Sorry to burst your bubble, but not every girls life revolves around a man you know :D

GilyAnn

September 7th, 2003, 10:17 pm

Perhaps. It's true that Hermione is risking her life, potentially, for her cause, and probably will eventually need the support of the wizarding world, as they hold all the cards over the House Elves at present. Re: team, we see in OoP that Harry and Hermione already make a great team in many situations. But I don't see Hr/R making a great team until, as you say 1) she can take his input and I would add 2) he has something worthy to say re: the larger issue of oppressed non-human magical brethren, e.g. House Elves for one. I really do think it's that important. And neither one treats the other's input with a great deal of respect on many occasions, which doesn't bode well for common ground, in general.

A quick note because I have to go. I don't think that H/Hr make a good team either. They both went into the fire trying to prove wrong the other one.

By the way, why cat and Ginny is important. IMHO, it is just some spice about Ginny's character. Cat is generally consider playful, unconsistant. It is also able to avoid danger. Also cat is generally consider less loyal than dog. None of these quality is important in love thread....I dont see cat is importatnt here.

To be playful it didn't need that much foreshadowing. We already knew Ginny's uplifiting mood. It's much more than that.

Gily Ann

Elric

September 7th, 2003, 10:17 pm

Just a quick thought or two regarding DaveyDee's post regarding Hermione's getting dressed up for the Yule Ball. Firts off I'd like to congratulate DaveyDee on a well thought out and detailed post.

Almost inevitably however people will offer alternative interpretations, so I'll offer mine. Hermione was aware that she'd be attending the ball with one of the Tri-Wizard champions, so almost by default she would be noticed, and the impression she made commented on.

In this situation I believe that Hermione would make an effort to show herself in the best light, not only for herself, but also out of respect for her date and for Hogwarts as well. The Yule Ball seemed the sort of formal occasion where a special effort is de-rigeur, dress robes and so on, so I think everyone would go all out.

If however Hermione was trying to make Ron jealous, then judging by his actions it worked, despite Ron's comments being somewhat over the top and offensive. So why in the intervening 18 months or so have we seen no obvious follow up from either party? If both parties, R/Hr, are waiting for obvious confirmation from the other, then I think I hear the sound of Hell freezing over :)

Buckbeak

September 7th, 2003, 10:20 pm

Ok looks like three parts actually, i think i'm having he same probelm as DTW, its so frustrating, well sorry for double posting its the only time i will do it i sware :D
The Yule Ball, Just as, according to Hermione, Harry upset Cho – so Ron had upset her.
Um yes Ron had upset her, but not in the way your suggesting, not the way Harry upset Cho.
Just as Cho had tried to make Harry jealous – so Hermione had tried to make Ron jealous.
I'm just not getting how you made any of the Yule ball scene as a sign of jealousy on Hermione's part, the only person jealous at the time was Ron
And just as this was Cho’s way of trying to find out how much Harry liked her – so Hermione’s presentation and companion at the Ball, and her remarks at the subsequent brawl, was her way of trying to find out how much Ron liked her.
Again how you've worked out that Hermione was jealous of Ron and was trying to work out if he liked her, I cannot imagine. I'm sorry Daveydee but I just can't agree with you here, Hermione spending the entire ball thinking about Ron trying to find hints in Ron's words about how he liked her, well that’s just ludicrous, I’m sorry to be blunt, but it is (although I do respect that its just your opinion :) )
Except, of course that Hermione’s frustrations are left unresolved because Ron failed to follow up on her clear hints
Clear hints huh? Well Ron's not the only one who failed to notice them, I didn't either.
She feels that Ron may have shown the first signs of interest in her just prior to the Yule Ball, which interests her because she has for some time been concerned that Ron has failed to ‘notice’ her.
I hope your not suggesting that Hermione has had feelings for Ron before GOF, because I will need some textual evidence to support that.

haycheng

September 7th, 2003, 10:20 pm

lol GilyAnn
you are not telling me that Ginny is less loyal than Sirus, are you? Cat is generally consider less loyal than dog. What is the foreshadow in your mind?

As for DD idea, I can not agree. A woman should able to doll herself up without consider the guys. I know our ego is very huge and hope the girl will doll up for us. However, not all women will do that. Beside, it is a ball, all girls support to be dress up anyway.

Buckbeak

September 7th, 2003, 10:43 pm

I suspect that Hermione is aware that Ron has some feelings for her and given her own view of him continues to be frustrated by this, though I suspect she does not feel that they are all that strong, which in her mind, explains his lack of forthrightness.
Or she might just not have feelings for him so she pretends to ignore Ron's feeling for her, which is a normal thing for a girl of fifteen to do.
Of course, we know differently.
We certainly do, but we're seeing the 'differently' in different ways, if that makes sense.

Thanks Daveydee ;)

GryffindorGal

September 7th, 2003, 11:41 pm

Now comes the Goblet of Fire and the Tri Wizard Tournament. Harry’s name has obviously been put into the Goblet and Harry has no explanation. I think Ron’s reaction here was not entirely jealousy as some of my good shipmates contend, but a feeling of deep, deep betrayal. Harry had done something without him, and not a year after he’d offered his life to protect his friend. He feels Harry has broken a sacred trust with him. Then, when the two of them are separated during their falling out, Hermione seems to be quite absent from his life too. From canon, we get the impression that she is spending most of her time with Harry, but we have none of Ron's feelings on this matter.

Cheers!
Nia

What has alway bothered me is the fact that Ron had absolutely no reason whatsoever IMO to believe that Harry had entered himself. He's seen proof with his own eyes that it was impossible to cross the age line. Ron also knew that Harry had never done anything to "betray" him (Ron) in the past or given him any reason to doubt his friendship and loyalty. Sorry. but I have to go agree with Hermione, whom we're shown in OotP is very perceptive, in saying that Ron was jealous.

ana_banana

September 7th, 2003, 11:46 pm

GryffindorGal

September 8th, 2003, 12:35 am

Of course Ron was "jealous". Someone like Ron, with all those things he hasn't got that Harry has, attention and money, he had to be jealous of Harry at one point. It doesn't mean money and attention mean anything important, but at 14 material and superficial issues like those come to be important.

What about Harry? All those things that Ron has that Harry hasn't got. A mother, father, siblings. A family to love him and for him to love back. Ron knows what Harry goes home to every summer. .he's not famous or wealthy there.

If Ron was mature enough at 13 to feel the type of loyalty toward Harry to declare that a "madman" will have to kill him before he could get to his best friend, then he was also old enough to realise that best friend would never have "betrayed " him over something as superficial as a contest.

tree guardian

September 8th, 2003, 1:16 am

I have tried to look at this whole Yule Ball incident from the perspective of Ron/Hermione shippers but I simply cannot see that Ron is suddenly so taken with Hermione. He loves her, I’m certain of that—as he loves Harry. But I don't see his actions as being completely guided by jealousy. I don't think they are purposefully mean-spirited either, although they are terribly, terribly thoughtless and cruel. Is there jealousy? I believe there is some, but that is not exactly the ruling passion here. Sometimes very emotional people—people who wear their hearts on their sleeves, as Ron does, say horrible, cutting things without realizing the hurt and devastation they cause, and sometimes what we think we perceive is not always where they are coming from.

Cheers!
Nia

Great post Nia. I am refering to the enitre post but I'm only posting your summary. :)

Ebonyink

September 8th, 2003, 1:30 am

That was always my issue with the whole Harry-Ron GoF fight, Tina. I didn't like that the ever-loyal Ron of PoA's ending had become so petty. Say what one likes about teens being teens, but really.

BTW, school's in, so I'm back to teaching and have been busy. But I'm here, still lurking, and still loving the postings of everyone, especially my shipmates on the HMS Harmony. I also am partial to Daveydee's postings... although I don't ship R/H at all, he is perhaps one of the most diplomatic and fair members of that ship I've ever encountered in 3 1/2 years in this fandom.

All of you never cease to amaze. Cheers, and I hope to post more after my next OotP reread!

(I'm also looking forward to the next version of the H/H file.)

v@sh

September 8th, 2003, 1:39 am

I believed, before OotP, that Hermione’s efforts over her appearance at the Yule Ball were to make Ron jealous. The previous evening she had remarked to Ron:

’Just because it’s taken you three years to notice I’m a girl, Ron, doesn’t mean no one else has spotted I’m a girl!’ (emphasis JKR).

This says, to me, that that she has at some point, for some undefined period of time, been wondering why Ron (and specifically Ron as denoted by the emphasis in the text on ‘you….Ron’ and ‘…no one else’) hasn’t noticed her as a girl. The logical implication of which is that Hermione wants Ron to have noticed her. However, as we know, things aren’t handled that well by Ron thus frustrating Hermione yet further.

I definately disagree with this theory. Hermione, the character she is in canon I can't see her possibly doing that at all. But if you think that, like FlyingPhoenix said why can't it be Harry as well and not Ron? It was Harry she was talking about often to Krum.

I don't think she dressed up for either Ron or Harry, but rather for herself and Krum. If you think about being in Hermione's shoes, if a world class famous International Quidditch player came up to you - book-worm Hermione who has a slight dislike to Quidditch - asks you to the Yule Ball, wouldn't you be flattered? so of course she wants to make an impression on her date, as well as the whole school for herself. We know she may be a little insecure about her looks so where better to overcome this than the Yule Ball. Hermione wouldn't stoop so low to dress up just to make Ron or Harry jealous, it isn't in her character.

As for when she directed it at Ron by saying 'you' because he was the one that asked Hermione to the ball, not Harry. So why take it out on Harry when it was Ron who asked and didn't notice Hermione being a girl. Hermione also specifically directs it a Ron because he just realises now that Hermione's a girl, not before, but now when Ron is desperate for a date. Its the principles which Hermione is angry about and that is not being the last resort and the principle of choosing someone who is pretty rather than their personality. Any girl wouldn't like to be a last resort to a friend who is desperate for a date and has known them for 3/4 years.

Anyway, excellent posts from all the H/Hr's - sone, Nia, GryffindorGal, FlyingPhoenix, Perdita, Buckbeak and others that I may have missed

BabyMars

September 8th, 2003, 3:38 am

I think I’d answer that one in this way:

I believed, before OotP, that Hermione’s efforts over her appearance at the Yule Ball were to make Ron jealous. The previous evening she had remarked to Ron:

She feels that Ron may have shown the first signs of interest in her just prior to the Yule Ball, which interests her because she has for some time been concerned that Ron has failed to ‘notice’ her. Sensing this, and compounded by his insensitive behaviour in the common room, she goes to uncharacteristic lengths to draw Ron’s feelings out by attempting to make him feel jealous at the Ball. Afterwards, having felt that she has at least drawn some reaction, she invites Ron to ask her first next time there is a ball. Over a year later she is able to recount all this, still believing Ron to be 'useless with girls', and relate it to Harry’s situation with Cho, thus indicating that Ron still plays on her mind. I suspect that Hermione is aware that Ron has some feelings for her and given her own view of him continues to be frustrated by this, though I suspect she does not feel that they are all that strong, which in her mind, explains his lack of forthrightness.

Hi Daveydee-

You say that Hermione dressed up the way she did at the Yule Ball in hopes to make Ron jealous. You say she did this because she feels Ron has failed to notice her prior to the Yule Ball. I think I'm missing in the books, prior to the Yule Ball, where Hermione obviously wants Ron to notice her, but doesn't... Yes, it does take Ron 4 years to notice she is a girl. But Hermione becomes angry because that it insulted her, not because Hermione wanted Ron to 'notice' her. I'm not so sure that Ron not realizing Hermione is a girl for 4 years made her feel too good about herself. Also, Hermione's behavior at the Yule Ball does not reflect the idea that she got all dressed up and pretty to make Ron jealous. She was very into being there with Krum.

"She was in deep talk with Victor Krum and hardly seemed to notice what she was eating." -pg. 417, American Edition.

Later in the Yule Ball, JKR shows how Hermione stays occupied with Victor and seems to be enjoying her time.

"Hemione came over and sat down in Parvati's empty chair. She was a bit pink in the face from dancin."

Don't sound like she's having too bad a time with Victor. Why would this be if she went to the Yule Ball, looking the way she did, apparently trying to make Ron jealous??

I'm really surprised that we are even still debating the Yule Ball. We have a whole other book out, a whole book that could have further developed the supposed budding R/Hr relationship, yet it didn't.

Cheers *smooch*

evaluna

September 8th, 2003, 3:39 am

Re: Hermione and SPEW
Rowena Ravenclaw
Which is precisely why it's important to any future relationship. Based on her remarks about career possibilities, Hermione intends to dedicate the rest of her life to this cause, which means it's going to be a recurring issue. We know Harry has certain reservations about the idea. He can't keep politely skirting the subject forever. It's not impossible that if he doesn't address his doubts fully and openly with Hermione, it'll eventually explode into one of those major issues.

Rowena: A thoughtful post. Agreed regarding why SPEW is important: it's central to Hermione's system of beliefs. Anyone involved with Hermione in future will have to deal with her stand and be prepared to eventually account for their own position. As a general comment and not to you in particular, this is why I think this topic is fair game on the love thread, in proper context. However, returning to your post, I think that there are arguable examples in canon that demonstrate that Harry's viewpoint regarding the house elves and the oppressed magical brethen in general has already been influenced by Hermione. Harry wondered about the house elves's workload and what Hermione would think @the Yule Ball feast in GoF; also, after the MoM hearing, re: fountain statue, Harry noticed the inherent hypocrisy reflected in the obsequious posture and expressions of the non-human magical brethren. Harry may not have a well-formed opinion, but his consciousness has begun to be raised.

Granted, it's Harry's POV, but what we don't see is much evidence that Ron's attitude toward the elves and other magical brethren has substantively changed. I agree that this issue is not going away for Hermione and I still maintain that this is a huge roadblock between Hermione and Ron. However, based on canon, I think it is potentially much less of issue between Hermione and Harry, as he's already begun to see the rightness of her goals if not all her methods. .

[b]Rowena Ravenclaw
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Flying Phoenix
Just try a comparing remember PS/SS how Harry lived by the Dursleys? Just like Kreacher in OotP in Blacks house. Its strange isn't it this image? Harry lived in a cupboard nearlly eleven years had to work or rather owe his relative. Till to the day as Hagrid turns up and said he is a wizard. How was his reaction? Was he like I pack my things and follow in my freedom? No it wasn't like that. He didn't believe it that this could be true but at the end he did go with Hagrid. Just imagine Hagrid did never turn up isn't it possible that Harry would be like a human Kreacher?
--------------------------------------------------
There's an important distinction, though: Harry was more than happy to go with Hagrid. He never seemed in danger of loving the Dursleys. Granted, we can't know exactly what Kreacher's upbringing was--was his twisted affection for the Blacks forced upon him?--but it seems he was raised with a deeply ingrained faithfulness.

A parallel between Dobby and Harry, and thus Harry and Hagrid, sounds perfectly plausible, but that's getting much too far off topic.

Agree but also agree with Flying Phoenix. The analogy [Harry::house elf] is not exact but there is much merit. Harry was second-class, his rights and freedoms abrogated even compared to Dudley [the other non-adult], and he suffered a good deal of neglect and emotional abuse at their hands without any option for redress. I am quite sure Hermione is well aware of the suffering in Harry's background and further saw Harry's relationship with Dobby [hand up in time of need] as a metaphor for life, hence her life's work. This work becomes all the more pressing when it's also likely evident to Hermione that those to whom that hand was never extended can be variously destroyed by their oppression [Kreacher, and even Winky, whose worldview cannot adapt so quickly after a lifetime of accepting limited boundaries -- sounds very much like a common human response, doesn't it?]

My point? That Hermione's compassion and empathy and love [friendship or more] toward Harry is the root and model for the compassion, empathy, and universal love she feels toward the oppressed magical brethren. I don't think you can separate them without destroying something essential in Hermione: her heart.

Cheers! must sleep...

Grace Granger

September 8th, 2003, 3:53 am

On to the Ball itself. There she is, dazzling in all her finery. Why go to such great lengths? She doesn’t need to impress Krum – he’s already got her as his date. She doesn’t need to do it for herself – she’s never been one to bother unduly over her appearance, despite the occasion. She doesn’t need to impress Harry (though he clearly notices the remarkable makeover) – she doesn’t perceive him as being swayed by such superficial things as physical appearance. However, knowing that Ron is indeed susceptible to the charms of a pretty girl, and still frustrated by his cack-handed efforts of the previous evening, and knowing that she will more than likely be outperforming Fleur (Ron’s hitherto eye-candy) she is sending a clear message to Ron – ‘look at what you could have had’; if only he’d noticed before that she was a girl and that he hadn’t messed up the previous evening.

I have to disagree that Hermione fancied herself up for Ron, who ignores her until it's time to insult her; for Harry; for Krum; for Malfoy and Pansy who degrade her any chance they get. She does it for herself and you want to know why I say she dresses herself up:

1) Because it's a ball, she was invited to it and she has to. And

2)GoF American Edition Chapter 23: The Yule Ball, P. 405 ~ Ron and Harry realize Hermione's teeth aren't large:
"...Mum and Dad won't be too pleased. I've been trying to persuade them to let me shrink them for ages, but they wanted me to carry on with my braces...."

That to me says she is self-conscious about her looks and that she more than likely made herself so pretty for herself.

Nia

September 8th, 2003, 3:58 am

Thank you, Tree Guardian

Responding to Gryffindor Gal:

What has alway bothered me is the fact that Ron had absolutely no reason whatsoever IMO to believe that Harry had entered himself. He's seen proof with his own eyes that it was impossible to cross the age line. Ron also knew that Harry had never done anything to "betray" him (Ron) in the past or given him any reason to doubt his friendship and loyalty. Sorry. but I have to go agree with Hermione, whom we're shown in OotP is very perceptive, in saying that Ron was jealous.

I do agree with Hermione too. I was not saying that Ron was not jealous, but that, his own misguided sense of what constitutes loyalty makes him feel betrayed and I think this is the primary factor for his behavior. I do believe Ron has been dealing with suppressed feelings of jealousy for a long time. An important key to this flaw in his personality is seen in the Mirror of Erised. He desires superficial things—fame and glory.

However, I also believe that Ron is not quite that simplistic. He has a definite problem with 'tunnel vision' in that he judges things by only what he perceives as the facts. The logical thing to do is to consider ALL the information at hand. (Remember Hermione saying in PS/SS that most wizards don't have an ounce of logic"?)

Ron has repeatedly had this problem with perception throughout the series. The incident I quoted from CoS was the first time we saw him completely ignore one of his friends' explanations in favor of something he perceives based on limited factual informtion. He never asks Harry how the spell was cast and doesn’t even consider Harry’s protest that he did not do the magic.

How many times, when the Trio is trying to work out a problem, has Ron come to a conclusion that makes absolutely no logical sense? In GoF, Harry's name came out of the Goblet. From Ron's mindset Harry must have put it in there— because he doesn't consider that LOGICALLY Harry could not, and again, will not take Harry’s word into consideration as evidence. Now, as to what ignites his anger, I think his conversation with Harry in the dorm afterward is quite telling: His primary thoughts seem to point to what he perceives as Harry’s betrayal.

“Well…no one else got across that Age Line.” Said Ron, “Not even Fred and George. What did you use—the Invisibility Cloak? “

“The Invisibility Cloak wouldn’t have got me over that line, “said Harry slowly.

“Oh right,” said Ron. “I thought you might’ve told me if it was the cloak…because it would’ve covered both of us, wouldn’t it? But you found another way, did you?”

Evidence of Ron’s jealousy comes in with the next few sentences when he disparages Harry over the prize money and getting out of the end of year exams and going to a photo shoot—things that Ron wants most of all, according the Mirror of Erised.

Since the two boys had first entered Hogwarts together, Ron had his own share of Harry’s reflected fame. They did everything together. Now, of a sudden, comes this Tri-Wizard Tournament and it seems to Ron’s mind that Harry is off on another adventure without him. His most overpowering emotion is a sense of betrayal. It is also quite evident that he is jealous of the fame and fortune that comes with being a champion, and jealous too that it is Harry who always gets the spotlight.

We see the flip side of this loyalty thing in OoP when Ron never stops to consider that Harry might be wrong, but supports him blindly. It is overcompensation –his way of showing his unwavering loyalty and making up for how badly he misbehaved in GoF. I am not at all convinced, however, that Ron has ever dealt with his jealousy issues and I think they will surface again.

Hope that’s a bit clearer.
Cheers!
Nia

Rowena Ravenclaw

September 8th, 2003, 4:56 am

Thank you, Tree Guardian
How many times, when the Trio is trying to work out a problem, has Ron come to a conclusion that makes absolutely no logical sense?

Very few. In fact, the Goblet of Fire incident seems to me something of an aberration. While Ron's inability to take in all the evidence is a good point, the conclusions he draws based on whatever evidence is available to him are logical. Take the CoS incident. On what basis should Ron have concluded that Harry hadn't cast some spell himself? Harry was surrounded by Muggles, and the only figures who might presumably have wanted to interfere with him would have triggered a different and stronger response from the Ministry. Who else could have done it? And would relying on Harry's word as the sole bit of contradictory evidence be logical?

Perhaps Ron cannot be considered logic-driven; certainly not to the degree Hermione is. But he is driven by common sense, which frequently works with and occasionally trumps logic. Take the Devil's Snare exchange in PS/SS. Hermione logically reasons that a fire requires wood: ergo, no wood, no fire. It is left to Ron to provide the common sense solution: cast a spell.

BabyMars

September 8th, 2003, 5:18 am

Very few. In fact, the Goblet of Fire incident seems to me something of an aberration. While Ron's inability to take in all the evidence is a good point, the conclusions he draws based on whatever evidence is available to him are logical. Take the CoS incident. On what basis should Ron have concluded that Harry hadn't cast some spell himself? Harry was surrounded by Muggles, and the only figures who might presumably have wanted to interfere with him would have triggered a different and stronger response from the Ministry. Who else could have done it? And would relying on Harry's word as the sole bit of contradictory evidence be logical?

I disagree. Ron is not correct when he is trying to be logical. You can usually tell that he is correct or that JKR is forshadowing what is to come through Ron's jokes. JKR said in an interview that if you need real information, you listen to what Dumbledore or Hermione has to say. Usually those two have the correct information or make the most logical sense out of things. Ron is not usually right unless he makes a joke of it. I will look for the interview and post it later.

Mars

Polaris15

September 8th, 2003, 5:26 am

To GillyAnn

I didn’t have my book on hand. I got it off the top of my head. Yes it does indicate things about her personality it’s a really important argument. It indicates that she is a bit more relaxed than Hermione, that she can find fun in those silly things and that she is more free spirit than Hermione is..

She laughs at jokes…she laughs at something funny…a person laughs at jokes…a person laughs at things that are funny…Ginny=a person. But what type of a person? We didn’t know. If Ginny herself had made a joke, then that would be more blatant and could actually be considered as a clue. But responding the way most others would respond to Fred and George does not indicate any specific characteristic.

Weren’t you saying that she didn’t find them funny?

At times, they weren’t funny, but most of the time, they are.

She clearly did and she is very close to them. Hermione doesn't find them funny at times.

But Ginny isn’t Hermione. Again, we knew that.

Those are two different things. The valentine thing she was embarrassed about Malfoy mocking her.

So we can confirm that she actually wrote the Valentine, and it wasn’t Fred, George, or Malfoy, and her reaction was similar to a shy little girl's isn't it? Not at all like fiery, sharp Ginny in OotP.

The diary she didn’t want anybody to know her secrets, she would have had to explain why she didn’t find weird. It was exactly what she was trying to avoid.

By confessing to Dumbledore, she would have nothing to lose. She would have to explain how it works, but I don’t see why she was trying to avoid telling the truth.

The reference about Fred grabbing Ginny’s hand. It has to do more to jkr linking Ginny to a cat, than about protecting her or anything like that.

How is an older brother grabbing her sister’s hand related to cats?

It shows great sense to me. If we are getting to naïve, then Harry is naïve, Hermione and even Ron.

Ron is naïve; Harry at times, is naïve. Hermione, not likely. Would you really believe Hermione would react the same way as Ginny did if she found out that it could write back to her? I think not. In PoA, Hermione was suspicious about a broomstick. The broomstick hadn’t even displayed any unusual effects either. Clearly, Hermione is not naïve.

This was clearly one of the things, among the many, that us and many non Ginny fans used to outline and that it was written by JKR in to define Ginny’s character before OoP and we were right about it. It was exactly like many fans predicted she would be.

Again, their opinions are not up for discussion. As far as your opinions...they're different from mine.

Also if Ginny is naive for not going to Dumbledore then Hermione is then also equally naive. Does she really believe that she has Rita Seeker by the tail? The right thing was to turn her to Dumbledore, but she didn't.

Look, people were getting petrified; there are blood on the wall warning about the CoS. Ginny has a weird diary that talks back. Little Ginny figured out that something is not quite right with the diary and tried to throw it away, instead of turning it in to Dumbledore. Instead of trying to help Dumbledore to stop the attacks, little Ginny cowardly threw away the diary and tried to pretend that nothing had happened.
Now lets compare it with Rita Skeeter. Rita Skeeter is not a student at Hogwarts. Rita Skeeter is not related to Voldemort in any way. She is a pesky reporter. She deserved to be jarred and caged for what she had done to Hagrid, Harry, and herself. Turning her in to Dumbledore would be foolish. Can you imagine the scene?

"Urr, Professor? Before I board the train, there is just one more thing: um it's Rita: she's actually an aminigus. Oh and here she is." Hermione hands over a jar with a large black beetle to Dumbledore. "Well Have a nice holiday professor!" Hermione waved to a puzzled Dumbledore from the train.

Furthermore, if Hermione had turned in Rita, she wouldn't be able to use Rita to help Harry in OotP.

IIf Hermione thinks that the Rita thing will sly by without any consecuences she is basically fooling herself.

Yet Hermione did help Harry didn’t she.

To your opinion I see. That’s what JKR used to foreshadow Ginny’s character.
Sorry JKR’s writing not mine.

It is JKR’s writing, but it is also “your” intepretation and “your” opinion; it doesn’t have to be JKR’s.

Please look at my question:

I did.

Where in Cannon does Ginny state that Harry is the boy who lived?

Seeing Harry as the boy-who-lived doesn’t mean she has to say it. It is implied by her actions. Anyhow, I was referring to the second portion of your post: “And sees him for it.”
And she did.

Statements not indicators opinion or anything along those lines.

Implied statements are also indicators.

Opinions are based upon personal reference

True, and it is also your personal preference to see what you want to see.

Sorry neither of those are valid. Ginny hardly speaks.

Oh she speaks plenty about Harry, as we've heard from Ron. Especially since she doesn’t know much about him. I wonder what she does say about him.

In the first one and the second one she expresses the same curiosity that Doris Crawford, Tom the bartender, the people that came to pick up Harry in OoP, Draco Malfoy, Mr. Olivander, and so many other did.

Yes, as you’ve said before: “They all see Harry as the boy-who-lived.”

She want’s to see Harry Potter.

And as Mrs. Weasley put so eloquently: goggle at him like he is some kind of a zoo animal. Very fan-girlish.

In the last one it is Ron who says out that Ginny has been talking all summer. Only to be proven wrong when Mr. Weasley arrived when he said:
“Good lord, is it Harry Potter? Very pleased to meet you, Ron’s told us so much about –“
Obviously Ron also talked about Harry all summer.

Harry is Ron’s best-friend; now Ginny, I don’t know what or why she was talking.

Mr. Weasley is pleased to meet him. He’d be wanting also Harry’s autograph.

But it specifically said Ginny wanting Harry’s autograph. Can you actually point to a quote where Mr. Weasley or someone else actually saids, “Arthur has been wanting Harry’s autograph since he first met him.” Where? If you can't then you're merely creating facts out of text.

BTW in book 4 Harry clearly states when did fall for him. “upon his first visit to the burrow”.

Yet she didn’t “know” him upon his first visit to the burrow did she.

Yes put 2 and 2 and it’s the same.

You’re trying to put 2 and 2 together and get 5. Impossible. :no:

Because if she can say all about him, she can talk about him all summer

She can, but Hermione didn’t. You’re assuming things not mentioned in text.

and at that point Hermione like Ginny doesn’t know Harry. If we are going to classify fan girls behaviour both are the same.

Just one thing: Hermione didn't act like Ginny.

Even more we could stretch it and say that Hermione was acting more like it since she follow Harry and Ron and they didn't want her around. Not that I think it's true. Neither Hermione and Ginny is but I'm applying the rule to everybody equally

Equally? Equally?? You've got to be kidding me. What you're doing or trying to do, is to make Ginny's behavior seem better and less fan-girlish by degrading Hermione's behavior. You're trying to prove that Ginny is not a fan-girl when Cannon has shown clearly that Ginny is.
Stating that Hermione follows Harry and Ron around acting like a fan girl is simply prepostrous, not to mention, very un-cannon. Need I to remind you that Hermione only followed Harry and Ron once, and that was because she had overheard that they were going to sneak off and have a midnight duel. All she ever did was to warn them about breaking rules and losing points. How is this even comparible to Ginny's gawking, blushing, and squealing? Really GillyAnn :no:

And yet she still doesn’t grasp it and understand it or even is sympathetic towards that.

:nc:

Expressing curiosity over someone and being a fan girl and liking someone because he is so and so are two different things.

But Ginny didn’t know “so and so” about Harry’s personality or anything really, so she is back in the fan-girl area.

I could be curious about someone and have little intention of getting to know him or her.

Yet Ginny never expressed any intention to get to know Harry better.

Fan girl is hovering around the object of your infatuation always pleasing him, always telling him how great he is, always ready to faint for him.

Not usually. Fan-girl ends up gushing over someone without knowing anything about them; particularly if the person is famous.

Ginny never did that.

Nope she never did faint. But she did stick her elbow in the butter-bowl, and she did have trouble talking to him after acknowledging that he was Harry Potter; she stared at him like he is a zoo animal. She acts nervous and twitchy around him. She gushes to other people about him. She walked around Hagrid’s cabin hoping to steal a glance at Harry. She squeals and blushes when she sees him. Fan girl.

Like I said she expressed curiosity upon seeing him the first time?

But did she express the curiosity to get to know him? Nope.

Liked everyone else. Ginny liked Harry ever since “she had been very taken with Harry ever since his first visit to the Burrow.” (GoF)

Again. She didn’t know him when he first visited the Burrow.

Oh BTW, I think you sort of contradicted yourself.
Your are twisting what I said.

You wish. :rolleyes:

To Gillyann: I really do enjoy our discussions, but please do not attempt to make any more frivolous arguments that aren't supported by cannon or even remotely suggested, or try to denounce a fact that has already been established or shown in cannon.
***********
To DumbledoretheWise

Actually, in the situations I'm talking about, "EVERYONE" didn't laugh, the text expressly states that Ginny did.

Well does it specifically say that Ginny is the “only” one that laughs. Please, give me a quote. Otherwise, you can’t just assume she’s the only one that laughs or giggles. Where does JKR mention something like “It was odd. The room was silent except for a trail of laughter from a female voice. Everyone looked at Ginny as she laughed heartily at Dumbledore's broken back” Or something along those lines; otherwise, you can’t make the assumption.

I'm not trying to prove Ginny is better than Hermione or any bunch of bull like that.

Good.

I'm simply stating that MOST of these situations involve JKR directly stating that Ginny laughs, it say something like "Ginny giggled.

But JKR doesn’t specifically point out anything.

." it does NOT say "Ginny and Mrs. Weasley giggled."

Why should Mrs. Weasley giggle. She was disagreeing with Bill. You cannot say that the rest of the Weasleys didn’t comment or laugh because they were all in different conversations.

I was pointing out that this is omething Ginny does often, so it is implied that Ginny has a lighthearted-ness about her

Actually, she does this only a few times; we never really see much of Ginny before OotP. So we can't assume anything about her personality.

Why is it against text to say that? I disagree, I think that it is little things like that that give you a pretty good clue about her character.

And I disagree with you. I don’t think laughing at jokes should reflect one’s character; if Ginny was laughing at something not funny or queer; then this will show her character, but trivial laughter does not point out anything.

I didn't say she acted like them. I said that the text implied from when she "giggled" or from the few words she said, I got the impression she was **more** like Fred and George than Percy.

Again, Percy is an odd-ball. She didn’t seem like Percy. I’ll agree on that, but we didn’t know who is she.

You see, my points here are to show that what we see in big amounts in Book 5 was actually being shown in small amounts throughout 1-4.

Sorry…I just can’t connect the dots.

No she didn't, but I already brought that up. If ou suspected you were the one doing it, would you giggle?

Actually, I honestly wouldn't know.

I wasn't trying to say that Ginny was unique or anything

Me neither, because she isn’t. She acts too much like Fred, George, and Ron combined. But that’s beside the point. Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. I never wanted to prove that Ginny is unique, I am just trying to find out instances where it actually give a clear indicator of her character. Throughout books 1~4, I just couldn’t find that; in fact, Ginny seemed more like a little-girl more than anything else.

Yes we know the reason, and I'm sure most were concerned. Some weren't, like Malfoy, but that's different. I was saying that Ginny has expressed continued sadness and guilt.

Anyone in her position would feel sadness and guilt.

Actually, we do kind of know. Here are some examples.

I thin kthere are other instances but for the sake of argument we'll stick with these two, one of Ginny standing up for Neville and vice versa. It seems to me that JKR ***DID*** take the time to point this out to us.

Actually, I was asking for examples prior to OotP; and after the Yule Ball...

yes, it was the way she said it and it was what she said. her attitude allowed her to be witty and shut them up.

What attitude? JKR never took the time to describe it. JKR could’ve said, “Ginny was turning red with anger. Steam seemed to be escaping from her scarlet ears. Her face was crumpled in anger as she yelled for Ron and Harry to stop laughing at Neville, her date for the ball.” But instead, we have, “Stop--Stop laughing.” Ginny said. What I’m trying to say is, JKR could’ve done so much more. She could’ve written it in a subtle way that could show us, even for a moment, Ginny’s character. JKR had so many opportunities to do so, yet she never did.

She told them not to laugh, and when they didn't listen, she shut them up with her wit.

Um…wit? It wasn’t a come-back. Nope. Not at all. She was merely stating what they already know. But she did stop them from laughing. I’ll give her that. Still, it doesn’t give us any indicators about Ginny’s character because so many people shuts Ron and Harry up. Hermione, for one, also McGonagall, Snape, Draco…you name it.

Just because someone held her hnad does not make her dependent.

Nope, but the fact that Fred feels the need to hold her hand shows that she is indeed dependent.

i'm specifically talking about her personality because I was arguing that she seems to have a lot of pride and perhaps this was the reason she refused the help available to her in Book 2.

She did stupid things instead of what might have been the better course, but she was embarrassed and afraid to tell, and it didn't help.

She refused to tell and get help because she was proud or because she was scared. You seemed to be going in two completely different directions here, but I personally agree with the latter. Then again, we don’t really know do we, because JKR never bothered telling us that.

Sure, this is my interpretation, but I think text supports it atleast a little.

Again, your intepretation and my intepretation is different.

I was making a parallel that this is something Harry does as well, even the fake Moody notices it. "You have a streak of pride and independence that could have ruined it all."

I agree that Harry is proud and independent; as far as Ginny, I really don’t see it.

No, sorry. We (or atleast I) am discussing how her characterization in books 1-4 fits in well with her characterization in Book 5, looking at what I consider hints of her personality. Since you disagree that these are hints, I understand your point,but IMO book 5 is VERY relevant here.

Forgive me. I didn’t see the connection and wrote it off as irrelevant; apologies.

Once again, I'm not trying to prove that Ginny is "special" or "unique." I'm showing that through the trivial things,

Again, I’m not trying to say that Ginny is unique or special; what I am trying to say is that the so-called clues are very weak. It doesn’t point to any specific direction in Ginny’s character. It is very general and hackneyed.

I beleive JKR was giving us hints, so that once we were TRULY introduced to her character later, we could read the earlier books and pick these things out. And give the more careful readers some hints along the way.

If you feel the need to go back and pick out the clues that supposedly described Ginny’s character, then maybe these “clues” aren’t hints at all.

He refused to believe Snape when he was yelling and freaking out? Well, I would too. I didn't ignore this, I said the "beginning of PoA." then end shows us some telltale signs that we don't (see my earlier post) TRULY see until GoF.

And I also mentioned the beginning of the series, when Fudge was described as timid, indecisive, and dependent upon Dumbledore’s decisions; in CoS, Fudge also appeared to be distrusting when he hauled Hagrid off to Azkaban without a trial. Again, I proved that JKR has shown us Fudge’s distrusting, cowardly, and suspicious nature. These are what you should consider as “clues”, not giggling or laughing at jokes.

Who says she didn't?She first meets Harry on the train, informing him that at that point she had "read all about him." I really don't think Harry's personality was in the Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts, she most likely read about the Boy Who Lived.

She may have read about the “Boy Who Lived”, but the significant thing is: she didn’t TREAT him like one. Unlike everyone else.

Later she even makes a comment, I believe, directed at Harry, about the fact that he was the one who vanquished Voldemort.

Quote please?

I don't think it's unfair to argue that Hermione knew him as the "Boy Who Lived" until Halloween when they became friends.

I don’t think Hermione knew Harry’s detailed personality before the Halloween, but she certainly didn’t treat Harry like he’s some kind of a hero to gush over. To others, Harry is a “Boy who Lived.” , but to Hermione, he is only a reckless, foolish rule-breaker that almost got them “killed—or worse—expelled.” ;)

Ginny didn't have the opportunity to get to know him as quickly.

Opportunities are created by people, themselves. Perhaps, Ginny was too intimidated by ‘the boy who lived; hero who conquered the dark lord, to actually talk around him.

She was brisk, "dignified" when talking to Ron,

Really. You might want to read over that part. It specifically states that she briskly asked Harry, “Did you kiss?”

with a "slight frown" and "almost pitying" when talking to Harry.

To you frown when you pity someone? I would think you’d be more sympathetic rather than stern.

To me, more telling is the way she scowled when Fleur kissed Ron on the cheek (a LOT more innocent than a kiss on the lips),

You forget, Fleur also kissed Harry; then there’s the whole argument about Hermione disliking Fleur since the beginning; I really don’t want to go into this argument again.

and how she couldn't meet Ron's eyes and blushed ridiculously heavily when talking about visiting Viktor over the summer.

Methinks she was blushing about the prospect of Viktor actually considering her like a girl. As far as her avoiding Ron’s glance: simple. She knew he would react negatively.

I pick "blushing and embarrrassed, and scowling" over "business like" when talking about girls and what is telling about feelings.

I pick “business like” over “blushing, embarrassed, and scowling; Hermione had every reason to be blushing, embarrassed, and scowling in those situations. Furthermore, those situations can be interpreted in more than one way. However, Hermione was only business like when she asked about Cho. Hermione had no reason to be business-like. She could’ve said something more natural, like “What took you so long, Harry?” Instead JKR had her say, “Is it Cho?” in a business like tone. Notice that it was the first words out of her mouth. To me, this seems like a more blatant indicator.

Of course she cares for Harry. She is his friend. Why does platonic frienship not incorporate caring for

I never said that Harry and Hermione’s relationship was non-platonic, but I do see it as developing into something more.

H/Hr shippers? Frankly, the whole Krum, Mrs. Weasley, Cho thing and "denying it" is a stupid, fruitless and low argument in my POV. Saying "Harry didn't deny it" is really desperate evidence for your ship.

Correct me if I'm wrong: but wasn’t it you who brought this up in the first place? :agree:
Let's take a look

Posted by Dumbledorethewise on Sept. 6th 2003
I'm glad you're not basing it on roles, because many try to. My point was that Hermione and Harry know each other pretty well, he and Ron know her personality better than anyone else. And he has showed no jealousy in her Krum experience, and she no jealous interest in the Cho fiasco. They have repeatedly denied they are together, either being reduced to fits of giggles or becoming very confused when people even suggest it.

My rebuttal:

Flawed observation. Hermione *never* denied it. Harry only denied it after Hermione started getting hate-mail. Where is the giggling stuff?

You also posted this in the same day.

Harry denied it to atlest three people, Mrs. Weasley, Krum, and Cho. Harry laughed at Cho, was surprised at Krum, and Hermione giggled at the appearance of the article.

I never used Harry's denials to prove anything. I was only stating it as a rebuttal to your attack.

So remember all R/Hr shippers: if you don't want us H/Hrs to use the denials as our argument, don't bring it up in the first place. :p

H/G fans use it in the Flourish and Blotts sequence with Ginny, and I think that's a load of dung too. But if you want to consider him denying it important, he did deny it.

I don't think denials are important at all. :shrug:

The following sequence was very heartfelt and genuine I'm sure. I'm no t sure how this related to our particular discussion, but so be it.

It merely serves as a counterpoint to your perspective of Ron and Hermione getting together. Anyway, in short, Hermione shouldn’t fall in love with someone just to prove to others that she isn’t predictable.

but do not refute earlier posts of your own.

I did not. I stand by what I've posted. I’ve merely stated the facts.
Just for clarification though, I do not think of Ron as abusive. That is too strong. Ron is immature and jealous, but he isn’t evil or truly bad. He is a good person and a good friend to both Harry and Hermione. But because of their personality differences, I really do not think he and Hermione would make a good couple.

First of all, note that I twice stated that that bit was not specifically directed at you, but at those who take that view.

Really? It must have escaped my view, I thought for certain you were pointing at me, since you quoted my last post directly above.

And you implied that Ron was undeserving of her romantically because he "disagreed with her on trivial things", "yelled at her for no good reason", "accused her wrongly of fraterniziung with the enemy," and "sent her to her dormitory crying more times than anyone" or something like that.

Yes. I'll admit that. I do believe Ron and Hermione would not make a good couple; but I am not trying to undermine their friendship in any way.

I'm saying that presenting it like this is very one sided, make Ron out to be insensitive to support the H/Hr ship.

Hm…since I’m not supporting R/Hr, I have no reason to post all the "good things" in their relationship; there are plenty of R/Hrs to do that for me. As far as making Ron out to be insensitive to support the H/Hr ship, I don’t believe I have done that. I didn’t post anything about H/Hr or contrasted their relationship with the R/Hr, so you can’t accuse me of putting down Ron in order to boost the H/Hr ship. Ron's insensitivity is not created by me, but by JKR; I have merely shown the facts.

Ron looked very guilty and sad when Hagrid informed them that Hermione had come down to the cabin crying "a fair few times" when they wouldn't talk to her

Please. Back it up with the direct quote.
Actually, let me do it for you.

“I got somethin’ ter discuss with you two,” said hagrid, sitting himself between them and looking uncharacteristically serious.
“What?” said Harry.
“Hermione,” said Hagrid.
“what about her?” said Ron.
“she’s in a righ’ state, that’s what. She’s bin comin’ down ter visit me a lot since Chris’mas. Bin feelin’ lonely. Firs’ yeh weren’ talking to her because o’ the Firebolt, now yer not talkin’ to her because her cat--”
“---ate Scabbers!” Ron interjected angrily.
“Because her cat acted like all cates do,” Hagrid continued doggedly. “She’s cried a fair few times, yeh know. Goin’ through a rough time at the moment. Bitten off more’n she can chew, if you ask me, all the work she’s tryin’ ter do. Still found times ter help me with Buckbeak’s care, mind….She’s found some really good stuff fer me…reckon he’ll stand a good chance now…”
“Hagrid, we should’ve helped as well---sorry---“ Harry began awkwardly.
“I’m not blaming yeh!” said Hagrid, waving Harry’s apology aside. “Gawd knows yeh’ve had enough ter be getting’ on with. I’ve seen yeh practicin’ Quidditch ev’ry hour o’ the day an’ night---but I gotta tell yeh, I though you two’d value yer friend more’n broomsticks or rats. That’s all.
Harry and Ron exchanged uncomfortable looks.
“Really upset, she was, when Balck nearly stabbed yeh, Ron. She’s got her heart in the right place, Hermione has, an’ you two not talking to her---”
“If she’d just get rid of that cat, I’d speak to her again!” Ron said angrily. “but she’s still sticking up for it! It’s a maniac, and she won’t hear a word against it!”
“Ah, well, people can be a bit stupid about their pets,’ said Hagrid wisely. Behind him, Buckbeak spat a few ferret bones onto Hagrid’s pillow.
They spent the rest of their visit discussing Gryffindor’s chances for the Quidditch Cup. At nine’o clock, Hagrid walked them back up to the castle. (273~275 PoA)

Where does it say that Ron looked apologetic? If you meant the uncomfortable look Harry and Ron shared, Harry and Ron both looked uncomfortable. Where does it specifically say that Ron is remorseful?
Furthermore, once they got into the castle…
“Harry, if you go into Hogsmeade again…I’ll tell Professor McGonagall about the map!” said Hermione.
“Can you hear someone talking, Harry?” growled Ron, not looking at Hermione.
“Ron, how can you let him go with you? After what Sirius Black nearly did you you! I mean it, I’ll tell---”
“So now you’re trying to get Harry expelled! Said Ron furiously. “Haven’t you done enough damage this year?” (275 PoA)

Not very remorseful is he.

Hagird specifically talked about the Crookshanks/Scabbers fiasco, and he also said something like "Really upset, she was, when Black nearly sbaeed yeh Ron."

I hope Hermione was upset. If she wasn’t, I’d think she’s a cold blooded, cruel, heartless git that would be undeserving of both Ron and Harry's friendship, but of course Hermione isn't heartless. :D

When they make up, Ron pledges to help Hermione and she throws her arms around him and apologizes.

Cute scene. Except Ron was terrified when Hermione broke down.

Harry wanted to "give Ron a good kick up the -----", and mentioned several times how angry he felt.

But did Hermione defend Ron? Nope. She interrupted Harry and asked him to send a letter to Sirius.

When in Book 2 is Hermione not concerned for Ron?

I should ask you. You left out book two.

Well, like I said, I don't have text with me, besides Bokk 5, but let me think.

The Grawp situation, they didn't argue, they resolved the problem. I really don't want to type it out, but page 705, when they talk abotut the promise they made to Hagrid about Grawp. They resolve it without arguing.

List the quote please? Because I don’t remember it ever turning into an argument.

The house elf hat thing--in this situation Ron is actually being the rational one. He is being sensitive to the feelings of the house elves and setting them freee against their will. In Book four a little and in Book 5 he is the one who thinks of their emotions, he tries to explain to Hermione, but she's too caught up in idealism to be flexible on the issue. tie this in with what JKR said about "Hermione offending those she wasnts to help."

They still haven’t resolved it have they.

I know that last bit was babble, but it's nto always Ron who starts the arguments, and it's not always Hermione who is being reasonable.

I don’t care who starts the arguments, I want to know whether they ever resolved their arguments or not.
Clearly, they have not.

~Polaris :)

Buckbeak

September 8th, 2003, 8:05 am

Take the Devil's Snare exchange in PS/SS. Hermione logically reasons that a fire requires wood: ergo, no wood, no fire. It is left to Ron to provide the common sense solution: cast a spell.
How did Ron help here? Harry was the one to tell Hermione that she needed to light a fire, and then she said that she needed some wood, which Ron shouted something along the lines of 'Are you a witch or not' but lets face it even if Ron hadn't been there is would probably only have taken a second for Hermione to remember that shes a witch, its hardly something you forget is it? Hermione just needed to keep her cool, Ron didn't really do much there. Not that he was completely useless, it was just that it was Hermione who saved them and i feel she could even have done it with out Ron shouting at her, prehaps he just hurried her along.

star22

September 8th, 2003, 10:04 am

I would just like to post all of the reasons why I think R/Hr will never happen. First of all, in regards to platonic, it does not mean being without romantic fealing, it means transending physical and towards the ideal(see Portkey.org). This means that Harry and Hermione's relationship is deaper than just physical, it is the ideal relationship.
Second, about oposites attracting. The thing is, opposites attract when it comes to personality, but not when it comes to core values. Ron and Hermione are actually alike in personality. Both are strong willed, independent, and are not afraid to say what they think. However, they are different in core values. Hermione values hard work while Ron values fun. Hermione values caring for others who are discriminated against, while Ron seems not to.
Harry and Hermione are different in personality. Harry is willing to listen to others, and does not disagree readily. He is not as strong willed as Hermione or Ron. Hermione and Harry are alike in values. They both value hard work and caring for others. They have a common compassion for house elves, Harry freeing Dobby and Hermione with SPEW, even when they disagree on methods. They also go out of their way to not allow the other to hurt, Harry not telling Hermione that Dobby took the things she knitted and Hermione trying to comfort Harry when he needs it.
There is also the matter of maturity. Sorry, but Ron is just not as mature as Harry or Hermione. R/HR would not be a relationship between equals.
Harry and Hermione fill each others weaknesses. Hermione solves the problem and Harry implements the solution. They generally do this with little or no help from Ron. Hermione is the thinking side, and Harry is the fealing (myers-briggs).
Hermione is too independent for Ron. Ron needs someone who gives him lots of attention and feeds his ego. Harry needs someone independent because he has enough to worry about without caring for someone else too.
Finally, I do not know about you, but I would never want to be with someone who insulted my very character. Hermione's book smarts and compassion are part of who she is. For Ron to insult these things is not just minor arguements. I don't mind people dissagreeing with me, but I would never be with someone who degraded me all the time.

Nia

September 8th, 2003, 1:27 pm

Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw:

Very few. In fact, the Goblet of Fire incident seems to me something of an aberration. While Ron's inability to take in all the evidence is a good point, the conclusions he draws based on whatever evidence is available to him are logical. Take the CoS incident. On what basis should Ron have concluded that Harry hadn't cast some spell himself? Harry was surrounded by Muggles, and the only figures who might presumably have wanted to interfere with him would have triggered a different and stronger response from the Ministry. Who else could have done it? And would relying on Harry's word as the sole bit of contradictory evidence be logical?

He had known Harry one year by then. They had gone through some very intense situations together and had bonded in a manner of speaking. I would think Ron would owe Harry at least the benefit of the doubt that he might be telling the truth. The most telling thing is, however, that Ron doesn’t ask six simple little words: “Well, if you didn’t who did?” Logic would seem to also dictate that Harry had no reason to lie to his best friend.

Rowena Ravenclaw:
Perhaps Ron cannot be considered logic-driven; certainly not to the degree Hermione is. But he is driven by common sense, which frequently works with and occasionally trumps logic. Take the Devil's Snare exchange in PS/SS. Hermione logically reasons that a fire requires wood: ergo, no wood, no fire. It is left to Ron to provide the common sense solution: cast a spell.

This incident in PS/SS is more the aberration. We don’t see Ron beat Hermione in any logical situation after that. The following scene where we see the Trio looking over Riddle’s diary in CoS is more common:

Harry wants to know why someone threw the diary away and said he wouldn’t mind knowing how Riddle got an award for special services to the school—

“Could’ve been anything,” said Ron. “Maybe he got thirty OWLS or saved a teacher from the giant squid. Maybe he murdered Moaning Myrtle, that would’ve done everyone a favor…”
But Harry could tell from the arrested look on Hermione’s face that she was thinking what he was thinking.
“What?” said Ron, looking from one to the other.
“Well, the Chamber of Secrets was opened fifty years ago, wasn’t it? He sid. “That’s what Malfoy said.”
“Yeah,,,”said Ron slowly.
“And this diary is fifty years old,” said Hermione tapping it excitedly.
“So?”
“Oh, Ron, wake up,” snapped Hermione. “We know the person who opened the Chamber was expelled fifty years ago…<snip>

I selected this passage because it follows a pattern in the books. When Ron is seriously trying to use clues to solve a problem, he is generally wrong or just doesn’t see things. When he is joking, however, he is usually right. Notice above how he pinned Myrtle’s murderer spot on.

JKR established this pattern, with Ron for a reason. It has continued, BTW, into OoP. The ultimate goal is anyone’s guess. But Ron’s jokes bare looking at twice.

Cheers!
Nia

GilyAnn

September 8th, 2003, 1:28 pm

Haycheng:
you are not telling me that Ginny is less loyal than Sirus, are you? Cat is generally consider less loyal than dog. What is the foreshadow in your mind?

No this has nothing to do with Loyalty. Loyalty has nothing to do with this. Let me start by asking. Did you notice that Ginny got most descritions, actions and even her appearances are marked by link to a cat? What I mean is: the firelight reflected on her eyes, currled, hissing like a angry cat, Mrs. Weasley not letting her hear what the order had in mind, etc. I'm asking you this first before answering your question to know if you are aware of what I'm talking about it.

Polaris15

She laughs at jokes…she laughs at something funny…a person laughs at jokes…a person laughs at things that are funny…Ginny=a person. But what type of a person? We didn’t know. If Ginny herself had made a joke, then that would be more blatant and could actually be considered as a clue. But responding the way most others would respond to Fred and George does not indicate any specific characteristic.

At times, they weren’t funny, but most of the time, they are.

But Ginny isn’t Hermione. Again, we knew that.

Well then Perhaps you like to point to me when in books 1-4 jkr foreshadow Ginny’s personality. Because she obviously had to do so in the first 4 books. So perhaps there are scenes where jkr explained were Ginny was funny, witty, loyal, etc. That new spunky and great personality had to be present in the first 4 books. So perhaps there are scenes that you consider that are better that say that Ginny is funny etc. I don’t mean all the negatives things I meant her new great personality that everybody likes now a days.

So we can confirm that she actually wrote the Valentine, and it wasn’t Fred, George, or Malfoy, and her reaction was similar to a shy little girl's isn't it? Not at all like fiery, sharp Ginny in OotP.

Sorry but to me it’s was quite clear that the twins wrote that Valentine but Draco accused Ginny because she was the one who pass by him, she’s liked Harry and she was the easiest target. Ginny horrified faced came when she saw the diary not when the Valentines was given to Harry. It was when Draco ‘yelled spitefully’ at her that she ‘cover her face with her hands and ran into class.’

Ron is naïve; Harry at times, is naïve. Hermione, not likely. Would you really believe Hermione would react the same way as Ginny did if she found out that it could write back to her? I think not. In PoA, Hermione was suspicious about a broomstick. The broomstick hadn’t even displayed any unusual effects either. Clearly, Hermione is not naïve.

Yet when Harry told her about the diary she never suspected that it could be dangerous.

Look, people were getting petrified; there are blood on the wall warning about the CoS. Ginny has a weird diary that talks back. Little Ginny figured out that something is not quite right with the diary and tried to throw it away, instead of turning it in to Dumbledore. Instead of trying to help Dumbledore to stop the attacks, little Ginny cowardly threw away the diary and tried to pretend that nothing had happened.
Now lets compare it with Rita Skeeter. Rita Skeeter is not a student at Hogwarts. Rita Skeeter is not related to Voldemort in any way. She is a pesky reporter. She deserved to be jarred and caged for what she had done to Hagrid, Harry, and herself. Turning her in to Dumbledore would be foolish. Can you imagine the scene?

"Urr, Professor? Before I board the train, there is just one more thing: um it's Rita: she's actually an aminigus. Oh and here she is." Hermione hands over a jar with a large black beetle to Dumbledore. "Well Have a nice holiday professor!" Hermione waved to a puzzled Dumbledore from the train.

Furthermore, if Hermione had turned in Rita, she wouldn't be able to use Rita to help Harry in OotP.

Yes if we compared Hermione is equally naïve. We don’t know if Rita is in contanct with Voldemort or not. We don’t know what contacts Rita has in the ministry or in the Wizarding world. Rita would be a lot more helpful and restrained if Dumbledore, who happens to be extremely powerful wizard and one that people fear, would have a hold of her. Much better than a 15 year old girl that came to the wizarding world 5 years ago. The right thing was, upon catching her, take her to Dumbledore’s office and leave it there. I’m SURE that Dumbledore’s have much better methods than Hermione. What would happened if Rita finds someones that register her as an animagus? Hermione won’t have anything to black mail her with and Rita could write anything she wants once again. I’m sure Dumbledore would have had much better used for Rita and much more control. Perhaps all those stories wouldn’t have been written if Dumbledore would had had control of Rita.

Seeing Harry as the boy-who-lived doesn’t mean she has to say it. It is implied by her actions. Anyhow, I was referring to the second portion of your post: “And sees him for it.”

Again and like you said, that is open to interpretation I’m asking for statements.

Implied statements are also indicators.

Again I’m asking for statements. Those are open to interpretation like you said.

Oh she speaks plenty about Harry, as we've heard from Ron. Especially since she doesn’t know much about him. I wonder what she does say about him.

Obviously what Ron has been saying since he is the one who talks all about Harry.

Yes, as you’ve said before: “They all see Harry as the boy-who-lived.”

None of them are in love with the boy who lived or liked Harry in a romantic connotation and Harry very clearly states that it was his first visit to the burrow what made her be so ‘Taken’ with him. I think Harry and Doris Crawford would be a distourbing pair.

And as Mrs. Weasley put so eloquently: goggle at him like he is some kind of a zoo animal. Very fan-girlish.

Yes same as Hermione who follows him around even though they don’t want her attention.

Harry is Ron’s best-friend; now Ginny, I don’t know what or why she was talking.

Some true statements about Harry all this probably based on Ron’s words.

But it specifically said Ginny wanting Harry’s autograph. Can you actually point to a quote where Mr. Weasley or someone else actually saids, “Arthur has been wanting Harry’s autograph since he first met him.” Where? If you can't then you're merely creating facts out of text.

Oh but those are Fred’s words not Ginny’s. So since Ron has also been talking about Harry he needs an Autograph and Mr. Weasley and we should add Mrs. Weasley since she is also pleased to meet her. She is not even angry that her sons risked their lives to rescue Harry. Very fan girl all of them.

You’re trying to put 2 and 2 together and get 5. Impossible.

Same as you!

She can, but Hermione didn’t. You’re assuming things not mentioned in text.

Oh! but if she knows all about him she can talk all about him. Just like everyone else.

Just one thing: Hermione didn't act like Ginny.

Yes I see. But Hermione follow Harry and Ron even though they truly didn’t like her. Ginny never pushed or forced to be part of the trio.

Equally? Equally?? You've got to be kidding me. What you're doing or trying to do, is to make Ginny's behavior seem better and less fan-girlish by degrading Hermione's behavior. You're trying to prove that Ginny is not a fan-girl when Cannon has shown clearly that Ginny is.
Stating that Hermione follows Harry and Ron around acting like a fan girl is simply prepostrous, not to mention, very un-cannon. Need I to remind you that Hermione only followed Harry and Ron once, and that was because she had overheard that they were going to sneak off and have a midnight duel. All she ever did was to warn them about breaking rules and losing points. How is this even comparible to Ginny's gawking, blushing, and squealing? Really GillyAnn

You are basing fan girl behaviour I's applying it to everybody. If Ginny is a fan girl the same is applied to Hermione. I’m appling the same rule to all girls. Is exactly the same neither Ron or Harry wanted Hermione’s attention. She was following them, being pretentious, saying ‘specially you Harry’ that clealy classifies as Fan girl. Since you insist on classify fan girl behaviour I'm applying that rule to all girls. To be honest I didn't see fan girl behaviour by nobody until the 4th book(when those girls that Harry didn't know invited him to the Yule Ball).

But Ginny didn’t know “so and so” about Harry’s personality or anything really, so she is back in the fan-girl area.

I’m not getting your position here. Either she talk about him or not. She knew him or not. If she (Ginny)did talk and knew all about him and talk about him, then Hermione did also knew all about him and spill all the books Harry was in etc.

Also Ginny knew perfectly well that Harry didn't want the publicity on the book store. She was clear about that, a fan girl would disregard that and think that her hero has to like publicity. Even her statement would be different. Yet Ginny understands that Harry doesnt' like that kind of thing and after the final scene in SS we never see her again in the same light. I have always see her as being ashamed for it. It does say something about her shyness around Harry. I have always seen that as the same curiosity as everybody else. Not fan girl behaviour. Ginny names harry and points at him. Fred and George wanted to ask him if he remembers about you know who, Ron wants to see his scar I think, I'm not sure or ask about it. Hermione says she knows all about him. Almost everybody has curiosity about Harry but to stretch to say fan behaviour I wouldn't. It's clearly not. They are curious, they are not being servants.

Yet Ginny never expressed any intention to get to know Harry better.

You see! Ginny didn’t hover around Harry so that disqualifies her as fan girl because fan girls are always hovering, pleading, begging, screaming and at the service of their heroes.

Not usually. Fan-girl ends up gushing over someone without knowing anything about them; particularly if the person is famous.

Fan girls do anything to attract their heroes attention. Ginny never tried to force her way in around Harry’s circle, she didn’t broke off her date with Neville to go with him, she shut him up in the same scene. Hardly things that fan girls do.

Nope she never did faint. But she did stick her elbow in the butter-bowl, and she did have trouble talking to him after acknowledging that he was Harry Potter; she stared at him like he is a zoo animal. She acts nervous and twitchy around him. She gushes to other people about him. She walked around Hagrid’s cabin hoping to steal a glance at Harry. She squeals and blushes when she sees him. Fan girl.

You missed that Ginny was looking for the roosters on Hagrid’s cabin. Perhaps if Hagrid would had more brain he would have realized that something was wrong with Ginny. Blushing around they person you like is not being fan girl is liking the person and being shy. Fan girl is a person that is devoted to the other. That anything he ask she will do and since Ginny never hangs around Harry I can’t classify he as a fan girl. Neither anybody else in the Wizarding World. They are curious to see who Harry is but to there to classify her as fan girl is just simply stretching it.

But did she express the curiosity to get to know him? Nope.

Again, see why she can’t be a fan girl. A fan girl must meet his hero. Ginny knows who Harry is, she sees him, he talks to her etc. He knows all his faults. But does she ever eagerly seek for him, forces him to be with her. No she never does; in fact she doesn’t think that Harry will like her. Fan girls usually think that their hero will fall for them automaticly.

To Gillyann: I really do enjoy our discussions, but please do not attempt to make any more frivolous arguments that aren't supported by cannon or even remotely suggested, or try to denounce a fact that has already been established or shown in cannon.

I could ask the same thing to you.

Gily Ann

Hermione_bg

September 8th, 2003, 1:30 pm

Talking about Harry,Ron&Hermione-this theme is really endless,isn't it?JKR mixed everything very well-I doubt whether there is a single person who KNOWS what's going to happen btw these three,scarcely there is a guy who is completely sure.EVen what we used to think is concerned-that they ARE friends FOREVER,now is not constant.They are getting older,and much more different.Where is Hermione,who thought school rules MUST be kept,even if that costs one's life?Where is Ron who hated Hermione?(book1&3)Where is Harry who was the little shy hero ready to sacrifce everything to win the battle btw Good&Evil???Our favourite trio can suprise us in so many ways.JR asked to say whether H&Hr are going to be together,said NO.WHY,for heavens sake?She said -someone completely unexpected.Does that mean not even Ron?IN my opinion love triangle is not credible at all,because obviosly H.doesn't love hr :grumble: For those who crave the contrary that is horrible but it is not ala JR to make thigs so simple.R likes Hr and she knows that but she is not indifferent to Harry,not to mention how well she hides it.What is gouing to happen-may be H&HR WILL be together just because JR wants to make R unhappy,i.e. not everything to be all right,quite in her style?Dunno,hope it will clear up in book 6..WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Nia

September 8th, 2003, 1:41 pm

Posted by star22:

<snip>
Second, about oposites attracting. The thing is, opposites attract when it comes to personality, but not when it comes to core values. Ron and Hermione are actually alike in personality. Both are strong willed, independent, and are not afraid to say what they think. However, they are different in core values. <snip>
Harry and Hermione are different in personality. Harry is willing to listen to others, and does not disagree readily. He is not as strong willed as Hermione or Ron. Hermione and Harry are alike in values. They both value hard work and caring for others. They have a common compassion for house elves, Harry freeing Dobby and Hermione with SPEW, even when they disagree on methods. They also go out of their way to not allow the other to hurt, Harry not telling Hermione that Dobby took the things she knitted and Hermione trying to comfort Harry when he needs it. <snip>

This is an excellent observation, Star22, and one that should be discussed in more detail. I think it is one concept that is not considered when the “bickering-couples-who-fall- in-love” argument is made in favor of Ron/Hermione. All of the couples generally cited, from Elizabeth Bennett and Fitzwillian Darcy to Han Solo and Leia Organa had opposing personalities but the same core values. Great Point!

Cheers!
Nia

MagicianGirl

September 8th, 2003, 1:54 pm

Harry and Hermione fill each others weaknesses. Hermione solves the problem and Harry implements the solution. They generally do this with little or no help from Ron. Hermione is the thinking side, and Harry is the fealing (myers-briggs).
Hermione is too independent for Ron. Ron needs someone who gives him lots of attention and feeds his ego. Harry needs someone independent because he has enough to worry about without caring for someone else too.
Finally, I do not know about you, but I would never want to be with someone who insulted my very character. Hermione's book smarts and compassion are part of who she is. For Ron to insult these things is not just minor arguements. I don't mind people dissagreeing with me, but I would never be with someone who degraded me all the time.
I would definitely disagree. Hermione tries to solve the problem but Harry doesn't necessarily acts on it. This is what my problem w/ H/Hr. The argument that Hermione solves Harry's problem for him. Well, Harry doesn't need someone to solve his own problem. I think Harry is more than capable of solving his own problem. He goes to his friends for support, for advice & for different course of action but in the end it was really up to Harry what he wants to do & needs to do. Hermione always tries to make decision on what she thinks was best for Harry but as Ron stated "he can make up his own mind". Look at what happened when Dumbledore withheld info on Harry. When he protected Harry. The consequences was great. If that is the basis of relationship, solving Harry's problem & Harry acting upon it well it was a weak foundation.

Harry is a strong willed person. Most of Hermione's adviced was ignored by him specifically in Ootp. It even comes to a point that he doesn't confide w/ either Ron or Hermione about his problem.

FlyingPhoenix

September 8th, 2003, 3:19 pm

Well, Harry doesn't need someone to solve his own problem. I think Harry is more than capable of solving his own problem. He goes to his friends for support, for advice & for different course of action but in the end it was really up to Harry what he wants to do & needs to do. Hermione always tries to make decision on what she thinks was best for Harry but as Ron stated "he can make up his own mind". Look at what happened when Dumbledore withheld info on Harry. When he protected Harry. The consequences was great. If that is the basis of relationship, solving Harry's problem & Harry acting upon it well it was a weak foundation.

You're right Harry don't need someone who slove his problems and Hermione is for sure not such a person. If you gonna say Hermione solve Harrys problems than you need to say this about Ron's problems too.
She don't solve it for him. She rather solve her own problems as Harrys. Yeah she give him her view and opinion this don't say he has to do what she think would be a good choice.
I start to think some people misunderstand Hermione. Because I don't see her like that not at all. She seems to be someone who refuse to solve others problems like she don't let them copy her homework. If she were what you say she did let Harry copy her stuff but she didn't even as the work did overtook him in OotP.
If someone give an opinion that don't say you are bound to believe it that this is right you can think about it and ask yourself if he is right.
Thats by Hermione just the same. She is very different to Ron. She say openly what her opinion is if you agree or not. Thats probably why so many say she mother Harry but she clearly don't do it.
She change her doing only if she fears Harrys live or that she could lose him than she want that he listen to her and do what she think is right to do. Thats perfectly normal It would scare me if she did react different. She act very much like a girl-friend would act. Wouldn't you do this for your boyfriend? To tell him its dangerous and he shouldn't do it? If I know a devil is after him I did evrerything to make him realise that he bring himself in danger. I would even go further as Hermione. In that case Hermione is even human if I may say it. She don't stop him and give him a full-body spell, what I would do if I were Hermione.
She give him the choice though some don't want see it. She could react very much different and much harsher as she do.

Between I wouldn't do this but I bet there are girls out there who would do it, I'm pretty sure its so. So Hermione isn't that much controlled over Harry. She let him choice even at this time.

Daveydee

September 8th, 2003, 3:25 pm

Second, about oposites attracting. The thing is, opposites attract when it comes to personality, but not when it comes to core values. Ron and Hermione are actually alike in personality. Both are strong willed, independent, and are not afraid to say what they think. However, they are different in core values. Hermione values hard work while Ron values fun. Hermione values caring for others who are discriminated against, while Ron seems not to.
I think that you've got that the wrong way round , star22. I agree with your assertion that where personalities differ (and let's face it everybody's personality is to some degree unique), common core values are essential to build and sustain a relationship.

Ron and Hermione absolutely do share core values (so do Harry and Hermione and Harry and Ron). Friendship, trust, loyalty, selflessness. Significant and meaningful values and beliefs upon which their lives are built. Aspects such as Hermione's bookishness and Ron's sense of fun are mere personality traits that help to define them as individuals.

On the subject of those core values. We do tend to spend a great deal of time on this thread making quantitative comparisons between H/Hr and R/Hr in terms of those values. The important thing, which is often overlooked is that they are qualitative values, and to make such quantitaive comparisons has a tendency, IMO, to devalue them.

Welcome to the thread, BTW.

GryffindorGal

September 8th, 2003, 4:05 pm

Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw:

I selected this passage because it follows a pattern in the books. When Ron is seriously trying to use clues to solve a problem, he is generally wrong or just doesn’t see things. When he is joking, however, he is usually right. Notice above how he pinned Myrtle’s murderer spot on.

JKR established this pattern, with Ron for a reason. It has continued, BTW, into OoP. The ultimate goal is anyone’s guess. But Ron’s jokes bare looking at twice.

Cheers!
Nia

I think that Rowling uses Ron in much the same way that Hermione & Dumbledore is used. Hermione & Dumbledore explain things to us poor muggles. Ron is (IMO) her way of dropping clues to future events. That's why I caught my breath when he made that comment about not caring if he tea leaves spelled out "Die, Ron, die" . (I don't want him to die. . .it'd break Luna's heart :whistle: :evil: ;)).

uncouth

September 8th, 2003, 6:23 pm

Hi everybody! Persons that Harry loves forever are Hermione or CHO CHANG!!! Yes. If Hermione loves Viktor, because JK did not write anymore since 4th book (except one parchment which Hermione wrote to Viktor) then Cho is the person who Harry has loved since second or third book.

haycheng

September 8th, 2003, 7:29 pm

To GilyAnn
Yes, I know all incidents that JKR use cat to descrite Ginny. What I am not understand is what you try to get to. Cat=playful,=unconsistent,=surivival or ever less loyal than dog. Neither of thes quality are importnat in the love thread. I just can not think of anything important about Cat.

FlyingPhoenix

September 8th, 2003, 7:40 pm

Haycheng you aren't alone with this thinking. I can't understand it either.
Whats important about cats. Fine McGonagall is an animagus and can turn into a cat and? Nothing its just a thing a part of her character its not really important to the plot, is it? Now how can Ginny be descripe in a cat way be important? Just because its Ginny who is descripe like that?
Just say Susan Bones were it would anybody think wait its important?

Grace Granger

September 8th, 2003, 8:09 pm

Haycheng
To GilyAnn
Yes, I know all incidents that JKR use cat to descrite Ginny. What I am not understand is what you try to get to. Cat=playful,=unconsistent,=surivival or ever less loyal than dog. Neither of thes quality are importnat in the love thread. I just can not think of anything important about Cat.

Flying Phoenix
Haycheng you aren't alone with this thinking. I can't understand it either.
Whats important about cats. Fine McGonagall is an animagus and can turn into a cat and? Nothing its just a thing a part of her character its not really important to the plot, is it? Now how can Ginny be descripe in a cat way be important? Just because its Ginny who is descripe like that?
Just say Susan Bones were it would anybody think wait its important?

You guys have made very interesting points. Gily, if there is anyway that Ginny being described as a cat supports the H/G SHIP could you please elaborate?

AvadaKedavra

September 8th, 2003, 8:12 pm

AK ends his temporary retirement.

star22

Different core values? I completely miss the point. I take it that by core values you mean values a person puts first, the values that they prioritize, and the values that describe them best.

So that's clear then- if I am wrong, point it out.

You say:

Hermione values hard work while Ron values fun.

So does Harry. Harry values fun- and Ron has been proved to truimph over Hermione with his so called "core-value" of "fun"- i.e. there is an example when Harry is upset and Ron offers him to play Quidditch- a "fun" aspect. Harry thinks this is good, Hermione doesn't. So by your own theory, you allow for Ron and Hermione's core values to contradict, but not Harry and Hermione's.

Hermione values caring for others who are discriminated against, while Ron seems not to.

Neither does Harry. There are zillions of examples littered across the books of Ron and Harry mocking SPEW, and Harry turns down the opportunity to help Hermione with House Elve Freeing business. Harry has been more moderate in his scorn of SPEW, but there has been much more negative than positive. Once again, allowing R/Hr "core values" to contradict, but not H/Hr.

R/HR would not be a relationship between equals.

What?!?! Ron is more than capable of standing up to Hermione. He gives as good as he gets, and his fast maturing attitude in OOTP, and Hermione's response to this is a good indicator. Take a look at the scene where Hermione explains to Ron why they didn't see his Quidditch victory- R/Hr roles have been reversed, and IMO, there shouldn't really be a problem with either being overrawed in a relationship.

Hermione is too independent for Ron. Ron needs someone who gives him lots of attention and feeds his ego.

By your own criteria, Ron should be with Luna already. Yet Ron has not paid her one shred of attention, instead being puzzled at her hysteric outburst at his joke. Instead, he continues to be interested in Hermione. Who says she is too independent for him? Love is not easy, that he seems best for her and therefore he should be with her, most of the time we end up with someone we never dreamed we would be with.

You try going back in time to that historic day on the hogwarts express and telling a disgruntled Ron who's just been reprimanded by a snooty Hermione about having dirt on his nose and suffering a boasting session from her, then saying aloud that he prays he will be in a different house to her, you try telling him that he will end up with her.

Love's a challenge, and I am anticipating how JKR may write R/Hr.

So saying that Hermione is too independent for Ron and therefore R/Hr will not work will not hold. What would be better is for some canonical evidence showing that Hermione's independence has stopped Ron liking her, or that Luna's devotion has made him like her.

Signing out,

Avada

Daveydee

September 8th, 2003, 8:18 pm

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Official welcome back on deck to AK.

haycheng

September 8th, 2003, 8:23 pm

Welcome back AK
:clap: :clap: :clap::welcome:

Fabiana

September 8th, 2003, 8:28 pm

Hi!

Oh, first, let me say thanks for my shipmates Evaluna (obrigada!), Gryffindor Gal, Grace Granger, MEM (why are you lurking, then? :huh:) and Nia (I know it's kind of late to say this, but I just loved your explanation about Ron's motivations some pages "ago". It was so sweet, it reminded me of my mom trying to explain something real unfair to me when I was a kid.:blush:)

And Polaris15, great defense of our ship in that long post. Really logical and canon based...

And, ah... I tried to post something yesterday, but I lost everything... :upset:I'll be really careful today.
I would definitely disagree. Hermione tries to solve the problem but Harry doesn't necessarily acts on it. This is what my problem w/ H/Hr. The argument that Hermione solves Harry's problem for him. Well, Harry doesn't need someone to solve his own problem. I think Harry is more than capable of solving his own problem. He goes to his friends for support, for advice & for different course of action but in the end it was really up to Harry what he wants to do & needs to do. Hermione always tries to make decision on what she thinks was best for Harry but as Ron stated "he can make up his own mind". Look at what happened when Dumbledore withheld info on Harry. When he protected Harry. The consequences was great. If that is the basis of relationship, solving Harry's problem & Harry acting upon it well it was a weak foundation.

Harry is a strong willed person. Most of Hermione's adviced was ignored by him specifically in Ootp. It even comes to a point that he doesn't confide w/ either Ron or Hermione about his problem.

Great points, Flying Phoenix! I just want to add some arguments:

Magician Girl,

First of all, when you refer to "Harry’s problem", what do you mean? The battle against Voldemort or all the obstacles he faces in his life? Because when I think about "Harry’s problem", Voldemort comes in my mind. And as far as I know, I don’t remember Hermione going on a solo crusade to vanquish the Dark Lord…

Alright, I’m going to suppose you’re talking about all the obstacles he faces in his life… from school matters to traps from his archenemy.

Let’s just remember that Harry is a boy that didn’t experience love in his early life. The people who brought him up were horrible, and had never shown any kind of affection towards him. He grew up deprived of love, attention, friends, toys – everything a healthy childhood should comprise. But he survived and stood up to it, without any help. From this, we can assume that Harry is really an independent person.

Now, let’s see Hermione. We really don’t know anything about her past before Hogwarts, but we can assume that she had always been extremely intelligent. We really don’t know if she had friends that accepted her as she was. Some time before her 11th birthday, she was invited to attend Hogwarts, a wizarding school. During the trip to school, she met Harry Potter, a boy that supposedly vanquished Voldemort – the most feared dark wizard ever known. She read about him in a book, but he really looked like a normal 11-year-old guy. So normal that he didn’t have any regard for rules and keep putting himself in trouble. For some reason, Hermione decided to keep an eye on him.

Harry’s first reaction to her advice wasn’t really positive. He called her "interfering". But for some reason we don’t know also, he felt worried about her when he knew there was a troll in the school – she had been crying in the girl’s bathroom because his best-friend told her off. It turned out that Harry and his best-friend Ron knocked down the troll and saved her. This is where their friendship started. (This is just speculation, but maybe, just like Harry, that was probably the first time she had had friends in her life).

Being friends with Harry, she could give all the advice she wanted. Until his fifth year, when it came to problems with Voldemort, Hermione was always right and had always given good advice – Harry was really grateful for that. When it came to his personal problems, Harry wasn’t really comfortable with Hermione’s interference, due to his independent upbringing and the fact that he wasn’t used to be around someone that actually cared and worried about him. Harry is an angry teenager (and he has the right to be) - of course he doesn’t like being told what to do.

But he is not going to be a teenager forever. That’s why I don’t see this as an obstacle to a H/Hr ship, quite the contrary.

More than that, I also base my opinion on the fact that Harry knows Hermione is right, even though he doesn’t want to admit it. (And I really wonder why he doesn’t like to back down. I think this is really unconscious.) We have several quotes in the books to support that.
Harry is a strong willed person. Most of Hermione's adviced was ignored by him specifically in Ootp. It even comes to a point that he doesn't confide w/ either Ron or Hermione about his problem.
Talking more specifically about Ootp, I think Harry’s reason to ignore Hermione’s advice was because she was trying to meddle in what he felt. Harry really trusts Hermione’s advice about concrete things, like Polijuice Potions and time turners. But in Ootp, Harry felt that Hermione had no reason to tell him to stop having funny dreams and dedicate to his Occlumency lessons because she had never experienced that. She couldn’t really give a good reason why having those dreams were dangerous and learning to control his mind would be good. And as far as he knew, it would be good to know what the weapon Voldemort wanted was.

I’d also like to remind you Harry’s realization during his talk with Dumbledore in the end of the book… That Hermione was right about everything… his dreams, Kreacher’s treatment and all. And I’d also like to remind you that although she knew he was falling in a trap, she stood by him, broke rules and risked her life for him. I DO believe that he is going to consider that next time she gives him advice.
Look at what happened when Dumbledore withheld info on Harry. When he protected Harry. The consequences was great. If that is the basis of relationship, solving Harry's problem & Harry acting upon it well it was a weak foundation. Just one more thing. I don’t think Hermione and Dumbledore are really comparable, although they are JKR's main channels of communication.

We really don’t know much about Dumbledore and his reasons. As a matter of fact, I have a lot of questions about his actions… Didn’t he really know about Quirrell and Snape interaction in PS/SS? He can read minds, doesn’t he? And why did he return the invisibility cloak after the Norbert incident? Why did he smile after he knew Voldemort had Harry’s blood in his veins? (And I have a few more doubts, but this isn't really where we should talk about DD).

Bottom line: I do think that we don’t know everything about Dumbledore yet. So, we can’t really tell his reasons.

Hermione, on the other hand, had always been a clear character to me. He had always been loyal and her actions were always coherent. The only thing about her we really don’t know about is who she really loves.

Hmm, I wonder why…

AvadaKedavra

September 8th, 2003, 8:35 pm

The only thing about her we really don’t know about is who she really loves.

Hmm, I wonder why…

Because that's JKR.

So you're admitting that from the books that it seems that Hermione might as well like Ron, instead of Harry, that the evidence given doesn't seem to point to Hermione liking Harry? I agree wholeheardetly.

Good night you all, see you tomorrow.

Signing out,

Avada

Grace Granger

September 8th, 2003, 9:52 pm

You're welcome Fabiana! :D

OFF Topic: To all those who have been on and off about JKR and Jane Austen. I bought Emma. You all better pray it's a good book if not you're trouble! :evil:

Fabiana

September 8th, 2003, 10:18 pm

Because that's JKR.

So you're admitting that from the books that it seems that Hermione might as well like Ron, instead of Harry, that the evidence given doesn't seem to point to Hermione liking Harry? I agree wholeheardetly.

Avada, sweety,

First of all, if Hermione's romantic feelings were clear, I doubt this thread would even exist. It's all about HER choice.

And I really don’t know any H/Hr shipper that doesn’t think that R/H might be a possibility.

The thing is: Hermione may end with Harry, Ron or alone. (I really don't believe she'll be with Krum, Draco or Neville, although I know people that actively ship those).

But, to make this easier, let's consider that she won't be alone in the end of book 7 - she'll be in love with Harry or Ron.

This means that JKR have been building her books giving actual hints and red herrings.

Let's consider the possibility that Hermione might like Ron. So much evidence in the books, right? Jealousy scenes, bickering sessions, an unusual perfume as a birthday gift, interviews stating about "tension"...

I just wonder… why JKR would give her plot away this easily? In a recent interview, when she was asked about pairings, she said that she couldn’t give the "the heart of it all".

And, there is Harry and Hermione’s relationship. The hero’s female best-friend. The one that actually cares about him so much that she knows everything about the girl Harry fancies – and he never asked for help. When in danger, it was HIS hand that she looked for - not the "tension" guy. Although she doesn’t know, the logical part in his mind answers by her voice. A relationship based in trust, loyalty, respect and admiration. Whoops, just platonic friends, as JKR stated.

And there’s the fact I like the most about in the books. The element of surprise. JKR always leads you to think one way and when you get there…it’s just the other way around. And when you read for the second time, you see that all the hints were there, but they just were so subtle – and you got so carried away with what you thought were more obvious…

So, you see... It's just a matter of choice. I've decided what my red herrings are.

But this don't stop them from being there.

Nite, nite.

EDIT: Grace, I also bought Emma some weeks ago. It's nice. I'm at chapter 20. I guess I should have read more, but I've stopped to reread some HP things in and it was hard to come back... :cool:

GilyAnn

September 8th, 2003, 10:24 pm

You're welcome Fabiana! :D

OFF Topic: To all those who have been on and off about JKR and Jane Austen. I bought Emma. You all better pray it's a good book if not you're trouble! :evil:

I'm so sorry! It's terrible! Perhaps you should rent the movie. Well maybe not I falled asleep twice.

You guys have made very interesting points. Gily, if there is anyway that Ginny being described as a cat supports the H/G SHIP could you please elaborate?

You know I have a HUGE cold. I think it does have very little to do with shipping. I'm not sure.

Yes, I know all incidents that JKR use cat to descrite Ginny. What I am not understand is what you try to get to. Cat=playful,=unconsistent,=surivival or ever less loyal than dog. Neither of thes quality are importnat in the love thread. I just can not think of anything important about Cat.

LOL :rotfl: Ginny link to a cat has nothing to do with her loyalty. During the Inquisition cats used to be consider a witch's companion(which was halfly used on a different manner with Hermione picking Crosshanks and the cat -rat-dog issue). But before that time and even during the Inquisition cats used to be consider clairivoyant because: The cats excellent night vision, and the way it's eyes can eerily reflect light, led to the idea that cats were clairvoyant. If they could see in the dark, why couldn't they read minds or look into the future. Remember how Harry said that Ginny's eyes reflected the light of the fire, how she was refer to as one time as if able to read Harry's mind. How she jumped out and said to Harry that they weren't going to able to call him.

If you are wondering why Ginny didn't look into the future for Sirius etc. Only JKR knows for sure, but thru history Seers (of what I can remember right now off the top of my head.) realize and are able to excersise this ability thru age. Meaning that they are not always to do this at any age. Most of them like Trewlaney are not aware of what's going on with them. So Ginny being linked to cats could be trying to foreshadow Ginny as a possibly a Seer. Which is a strong posibility her being a 7th child who usually were also consider to be also Clairyvoyant. YES and I'm aware that people believe is the 7th son(and there is a legend), but I'm a sure it's a 7th child not a 7th son.

I hope I made my self clear this time. Sorry for the confusion.

Gily Ann

Mad-I Moody

September 8th, 2003, 10:32 pm

Hi everyone. Delurking to quickly post that Emma is a great book, and I hope you enjoy it, Grace Granger!

And a hearty :welcome: back to AK!

Great posts everyone. :D

zoeydsngwrtr

September 8th, 2003, 10:40 pm

Wow, this thread has not changed at all, not even after the last book. I apologize I have chosen not to read all of the discussions and rebuttles as to why what my happen, it tends to make me dissy. I just figured that I would quickly throw in my two cents worth of thoughts.
I was surprised that the shipping in book five. I really didn't think that JK would put Harry and Cho together, and I really didn't think that the R/H ship would show up that fast. However; I am not suprised in the fact that Ginny and Neville are larger characters, nor am I suprised with the Luna Character. I am still a H/G shipper, though I admit I may be proved wrong, mostly on the point that I said R/H would happen, but not in book five, and though it did not happen, it came close, but I don't think that Hermiane could wind up with Harry, they are both too serious, Harry's Character has become a completly different person, and I think that R/H will always be his friends to lean on, even if they wind up together, and in the end, I see Ginny and Harry hooking up due to her extended presence around Ron, beings that she is his sister. Though I would like to see Neville wind up with someone nice (definatly not Luna though, she can wind up with one of the twins if she must wind up married into the order) I do not see him winding up with Ginny in the end, maybe for book six, or at least some of it (more than before) but Ginny will always be loved by all, and in the end, Harry will win her heart, Ginny's contact, if any outside of friendship, with Neville tends to be more of pitty, just my thoughts, go ahead and rip my odd statements apart, if they make any sense at all...I tried.

FlyingPhoenix

September 8th, 2003, 10:44 pm

GilyAnn

September 8th, 2003, 10:54 pm

I agree with Mad-I Moody :lol:

"Emma" is a good book and I'm sure you gonna like it and I pray you agree with my thinking but anyway its kinda funny and strange you have to understand 19th century there was it like that and this is funny especially how clueless people can be.

By the way A big :welcome: back to AK.

I'm not being snarky here. Did you really like it? (Mad I Moody did you also?) I don't want to spoil the book for Grace but I didn't like it. I though their 'interactions' were ok for younger people but for their age. I was like 'oh, please GROW UP!'

Gily Ann

zoeydsngwrtr

September 8th, 2003, 11:03 pm

Oh no, I loved the book "Emma" but I also thought the movie was a bit better. I am not a big Gweneth Paltrow fan, but she did well. The book makes it a little less intresting, one of the few examples where I will take the movie over the book.

FlyingPhoenix

September 8th, 2003, 11:07 pm

I'm not being snarky here. Did you really like it? (Mad I Moody did you also?) I don't want to spoil the book for Grace but I didn't like it. I though their 'interactions' were ok for younger people but for their age. I was like 'oh, please GROW UP!'

Its an very interst read for me. I don't think its like people grow up not at all is rather "What do they care?" I think its what you do if you don't has a TV or Net.
That or you do what good old Sherlock did spy in other live. Its kinda a second live at this time.

Its certainly not the best story but the best story plot if I didn't guess before the end how it end but anyway its possible I did read it once before. See one of my favouriet books was "The Beach" I loved this ironic and insane part.

But I give it this book by Austen it has style and I understand what JKR do adore at it. Its that you can't guess who it will at the end not if you have to proof it by canon it didn't work. Its somehow that the maincharacter seems to be know everything but is at the same time absolute clueless.

Its not a novel I would read again but its a nice one but still my favouriet novels lay different like "The little prince" very nice or Shakespears work. But hey I don't read that much anymore since I got bored by the always same topic. Thats possible I started to write by myself. I say just how interest can live be with a little bit dead in it.

Buttercup

September 8th, 2003, 11:20 pm

I liked Emma the book and I enjoyed the movie. I also am not a big Gwenneth fan but I thought she did a very good job.

Back to HP though....

Does anyone think.....Charlie and Tonks? I know some think Lupin and her but Charlie is closer to her age and I don't know..... it would be cute. I can picture her scaring the dragons with her hair or something.

Cheers, I hope everyone is well.

Mad I

September 8th, 2003, 11:42 pm

Does anyone think.....Charlie and Tonks? I know some think Lupin and her but Charlie is closer to her age and I don't know..... it would be cute. I can picture her scaring the dragons with her hair or something.I don't see any reason why not, although I am not sure of Charlie's age and also I think that it would be nice to go along with Bill and Fleur (who I think are dating).

zoeydsngwrtr

September 8th, 2003, 11:58 pm

I like the idea of Charlie and Tonks I would say moore, but there is that five o'clock

Mad I

September 9th, 2003, 12:21 am

I am surprised that we haven't seen any minor characters dating (like Charlie, Tonks, Bill, Seamus, Fred, George, Katie Bell, or even Lupin or my namesake....Mad I). In older news I am going to reply on some stuff that never really got its due.
And in my opinion she played the cards much in her favor too. That gives her a lot of points in Harry's view, makes him see her more ... that she understands him and helps him...Couldn't agree more, this is Ginny showing respect and not spiteing an "enemy." This is also an example of Ginny being mature and more like her age (which I guess is the same thing as being mature but still)
I completly agree with you there. Don't downplay Ron, and Ron is not stupid. I like Ron very much, not to be with Hermione but certainly to be one very good and important friend to her and Harry, specially Harry. He should find a great great and pretty girlI quite simply agree
You misunderstood me perhaps on my definition of round characters and flat. Someone who is round has to be linked to the plot-line. Someone who we can’t do without. Someone who is constantly changing and growing the in reader’s eyes. Someone who isn’t just there, but who moves along with the story and who, the reader, feel like he is standing next to the character all along. There is a big difference between showing one’s character and developing one’s character. Merely showing the personality of a character is not considered as developing the character. Developing a character is very difficult; not only does the writer have to brainstorm all the nit-picky details, but the author also has to find a way to communicate with the reader and actually show the gradual changes and steps. It has to be a consistent movement, not a random block here and there. Again, it is gradual. Oh yes BTW, I do believe Draco is a flat character. He shows no development or change. He is just--there. Are you trying to say that Book 5 could have happened without Ginny......I am going to have to disagree because she is essential to the plotline, especially in the DoM. Plus, we learn so much more about how Ginny acts, how she doesn't like whining, how she can play Quidditch, how she can have fun and joke around, these are rather minor things I guess but some of them are essential to Ginny and the plotline. Nice analysis of Draco though both of you, Draco hasn't changed in years.
What they said was that she “never shuts up”. Talkative and chatty, yes, but outgoing? No evidence. We never actually seen Ginny interacting with a friend.
How about when she interacts with Hermione? That may not be considered as a friend because of the age difference but I see no reason why they can't be friends one year apart.Sense? Throwing away Riddle’s diary in Moaning Mrytle’s bathroom does not show sense; it shows stupidity (not bashing Ginny of course) If she suspects something to be dangerous, shouldn’t she have notified Dumbledore? Shouldn’t she at least tell her parents? Instead, she chose the dumbest idea of all; chuck it. She was born into a magical family. She isn’t a muggle. She should have “had the sense” to realize that magical items are not going to just go away or be destroyed that easily. It certainly doesn’t show sense or logic for that matter.She didn't contanct any of those people because she feared punishment, as most people, even Harry, also fear punishment.

Fabiana

September 9th, 2003, 12:45 am

Does anyone think.....Charlie and Tonks? I know some think Lupin and her but Charlie is closer to her age and I don't know..... it would be cute. I can picture her scaring the dragons with her hair or something.

You know, as some people had already said here, I think it'd great to see a Lupin/Tonks ship. Lupin is one of my favorite characters... (Sirius also was... Let's just hope JKR doesn't kill him...)

But I think it's more probable that Tonks might date a Weasley... Maybe it's silly, but I think that Molly rejecting Tonks' help in the kitchen (because she's clumsy), was kind of a hint. It would be funny to see a dinner in the Burrow with Molly as a mother-in-law obliged to take help from Tonks... who is so butterfingered :lol:

Mad I

September 9th, 2003, 12:54 am

But I think it's more probable that Tonks might date a Weasley...Which one though, I think that Bill is too old, Charlie has been suggested, Fred and George are a little too young. Lupin definitley needs to find someone though, maybe one of the lesser known characters in the Order. Also, Mad I, though he is getting old I think, plus he is crazy, but besides that he is quite possibly one of the coolest characters in the books (though I may be biased).

Fabiana

September 9th, 2003, 1:10 am

Which one though, I think that Bill is too old, Charlie has been suggested, Fred and George are a little too young. Lupin definitley needs to find someone though, maybe one of the lesser known characters in the Order. Also, Mad I, though he is getting old I think, plus he is crazy, but besides that he is quite possibly one of the coolest characters in the books (though I may be biased).
Well, I'm just speculating, but I think that Bill is not really that old. Remember that Fleur was interested in him... she was at the farthest 18 then. Supposing that Lupin and Snape are 36 (as JKR stated), I tend to believe that Bill might be in the 26-32 range. I believe Tonks might be somewhere 20-24... So... they could perfectly date :love:

And Mad Eye Moody... I don't know, surely he is older than the Marauders, after all, he is a retired auror. Considering that wizards have longer lives than Muggles, he must be somewhere around his sixties...

Oh and a ship for him...? He could date McGonagall or Miss Figg. :lol:

And yeah, he's scary, a bit paranoid, but he's definitely cool. I loved the way he threatened Vernon in the end of Ootp...

See ya,

Mad I

September 9th, 2003, 1:30 am

McGonagall and Mad Eye Moody, I love it!!! :)

BlackKnight86

September 9th, 2003, 1:33 am

Quote from DaveyDee (emphasis mine):
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I would interpret that as Mad-I Moody's meaning, adequately phrased as it was in a colloquial manner.
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And that is the crux of the problem. "Colloquial" is fine for conversation, but not always specific enough for discussion, especially when the participants cannot see each other and utilize the standard verbal and non-verbal clues to infer connotation; and when they cannot easily ask for clarification of meaning.

Quote from DaveyDee (emphasis mine):
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I suspect that Mad-I Moody's point (and she may choose to correct me on this) was that Harry's 'denseness', or lack of experience, if you like, in matters of the heart cuts across all aspects of that arena. As much in terms of his perceptions of those around him, as in his own interactions.
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What I like is not the issue. We speak English where I live; our words have both definitions and connotations, and to communicate properly and effectively it is necessary to either utilize the same language, or translate. What are you currently speaking in, uh, SW England?

In any case, from dictionary.com:

dense - Slow to apprehend; thickheaded.
An alternate definition, also from dictionary.com, is "stupid; gross; crass" - hence the reason that I countered Mad-I Moody with "Harry isn't stupid".

"Dense" and "lack of experience" do not mean the same thing; hence, it is fallacious to use them interchangeably. Allow me to illustrate with a simple example. Let's say you have two people, one smart, the other "dense". Both of them lack experience at a task, thus they perform below a set standard. Let's say you take the two of them and give them each the same amount of experience. The "dense" person may still perform below the standard, even though you can argue that he now has experience. Being "dense", however, he is "slow to apprehend".

Do you "apprehend" my example, DaveyDee?

Quote from BlackKnight86 (emphasis added):
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The point is, Mad-I Moody stated an opinion as if it were fact and backed it up with one tepid example from the text and one very general statement about romantic stereotypes. Moreover, the stated opinion appeared to be specific to Harry's personal POV (ie. his own romantic interest in Cho) vice his observation of Hermione's and Ron's feelings (objective observation is not necessarily affected by personal subjectivity), which was the subject of my questions. Absent further clarification, I can neither relate the explanation to my question, nor can I even accept the explanation as even being true. Notice that I didn't question the possibility of the explanation; nor did I question the potential validity of the deductive argument that rested behind the explanation (which wasn't stated, so I never got the chance to see it). I questioned the validity of the explanation (valid - "containing premises from which the conclusion may logically be derived") because I saw no logical path from which Mad-I Moody's conclusion was derived. Oh, and, by the way, unless and until you explain to me the meaning and intent behind your use of the word "clueless", I most certainly do dispute your assertion that Harry is, in fact, "clueless" in that department.
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Quote from DaveyDee:
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Mad-I Moody's example was given from text.
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Ummmm....yeah, I believe I said that. Note the bolded phrase above.....

Quote from DaveyDee:
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I don't believe it's fair to say that it was a tepid example to support her view.
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From dictionary.com (emphasis added):
fair - Consistent with rules, logic, or ethics

Notice that I said it was "tepid (halfhearted)", as opposed to "wrong". To be "fair", I only need to show a problem with her argument that is "consistent with logic". The example that she cited was dissimilar on the surface to the scenario that I was questioning, i.e., the alleged "interest" between Ron and Hermione, in two very specific and significant ways:

1. Dissimilar perspective: Harry's perception of Cho is subjective, as he is interested in her. His perception can be affected by his feelings. Harry's perception of Ron and Hermione is objective; and, since he's been best friends with both of them for 3 1/2 years now, he should be able to recognize at the very least changes in the way the two of them interact (if not the actual interest that's supposed to be so obvious).

2. Dissimilar circumstances: Cho lost her boyfriend less than a year prior to a violent, sudden death. As a former US Army officer who had been assigned duty as a casualty officer, I can assure you that people in Cho's position (especially if they have not fully worked through their grief) perceive and react differently than people who are not in that situation (i.e., Ron and Hermione).

And that is just on the surface. These two dissimilarities can be taken further; and augmented with other examples from the text, that demonstrate my point that Harry is not "a bit...erm...dense when it comes to matters of the heart".

Quote from DaveyDee (emphasis added):
--------------------------------------------------------------
This is further reinforced by Harry's approach to Cho in GoF, where she wasn't a 'complete flake', and where he appeared equally awkward and clueless - "Wangobawime"
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"Equally"? Equal to what...."denseness"? Uhhh, it would probably help matters if you picked the word you mean and stuck with it, especially when you keep interchanging words that are, in fact, not interchangeable.

From dictionary.com (emphasis added):
awkward - Clumsily or unskillfully performed

clueless - Lacking understanding or knowledge.

The rapid rate and slurring of speech is a physiological phenomenon that is common when the speaker is nervous, a not unreasonable assumption with Harry asking Cho to the ball in GoF. However, the scenario involved Harry liking a girl, wanting to ask her to the ball, and eventually asking her despite being nervous. Regardless of what her answer was, it sounds to me like he knew and understood (please see emphasis in preceding definition) what process he had to follow, and followed it, within the best comfort zone that he
could manage at the time. While Harry can be considered "awkward", how on earth do you figure that he was "clueless"? If that was reinforcement for Mad-I Moody's argument, you might want to consider adding more.

Quote from DaveyDee (several emphases added):
--------------------------------------------------------------
I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we're all perfectly happy with the thread as it is. You only need look at a site such as
Portkey to see how stultified a forum which is overly-organised can become. Verbose statements followed by lots of very like-minded people telling you how wonderful you are and how much they agree with your words of wisdom. Wonderful for the ego. Rather less wonderful for varied and stimulating dicussion.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Ah...a thinly-veiled personal insult. It's refreshing to see that there are still people who are nominally skilled at that art, unlike the bull-in-a-china-shop approach that one so often sees today. Still, you could at least make it a challenge.....:

Before I start, I want to make clear to you that I'm not trying to change the format of cosforums. I made a suggestion when I first posted; someone told me that it wouldn't fly - works fine for me! Having said that:

1. First bolded statement - Uhhh...did you take a poll? If so, where are the results? How many people on this forum, and how many did you query? Does that include the moderators? How about the one who shut the thread down after Labor Day, so all the adults could have a "time-out"? Now, those people who complain that we keep going "around in circles" - are they perfectly happy, too?

2. Second bolded statement - From dictionary.com

Stultify - To render useless or ineffectual; cripple. To cause to appear stupid, inconsistent, or ridiculous.

I don't suppose you would be too put out if I asked you to elaborate on how you came to this conclusion about Portkey. I mean, "useless" and "ineffectual" are specific only in the absolute; and "stupid", "inconsistent", and "ridiculous" are very general words in any usage. No doubt you have an excellent expository essay explaining your position in detail, including a specific contrast with Sugarquill that demonstrates how websites like that are supposed to be done, and a definition and standards for what constitutes "overly-organized".

3. Third bolded statement - not knowing to which statements you're referring, I cannot address this specifically; however, I can say that I've seen that error on both sides and at both shipper sites. Perhaps that's an occupational hazard when you have an "overly-relaxed" forum.

4. Fourth bolded statement - "Varied and stimulating discussion"

Uh, are you joking??! You don't think the challenge of successfully defending your point of view with specifics is stimulating? Or, conversely, you don't think that looking at something from another person's point of view and possibly seeing it a bit differently because their disagreement forces you to reassess your own viewpoint is invigorating? Wow....I don't know that I can add anything to that.....

Quote from DaveyDee:
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Ah, the Luna, Ron & Hermione theory. Yes of course it's only a theory. But as I keep saying this is Predictions and Theories.
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Uh, yeah, I got that part.

Quote from DaveyDee:
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But it was indeed based on solid canonic evidence from OotP and extrapolation of that evidence.
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Ah, yes. That's the part that I haven't got. I did ask for it, though.....

Quote from BlackKnight86:
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While I'm doing that, if you know of a compilation of canon evidence for R/Hr, I'd appreciate a link, if you wouldn't mind...I like to be thorough!
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Quote from DaveyDee:
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There are five very good compilations. You will probably find them on your bookshelf.
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That's a much better attempt at humor than your "You assume correctly" comment. Well done!

As to the canon evidence....well, the H/Hr shippers already have a compiled list of canon evidence that's available (the Harmony File); I would have thought that it would be "varied and stimulating" for R/Hr to draw up one of their own.

Thanks for writing; I hope you're having a great day!

BlackKnight86

BabyMars

September 9th, 2003, 1:42 am

I think Moody is a little too suspicious of everyone to even consider having a romantic life...If he does, let's hope he doesn't use a lie detector on her everyday.

GilyAnn-

I don't recall any forshadowing of Ginny's character in the first 4 books. She was written out as Ron's little sister who just so happened to have a crush on the boy-who-lived. She hardly had any book time in the first 4 books, so we could only guess what she would have been like prior to the release of the Ootp. After reading OoTP, I was quite surprised at how much Ginny is like her brothers, Fred and George. I don't recall that being forshadowed in the first 4 books.

Mars

Polaris15

September 9th, 2003, 1:49 am

Well then Perhaps you like to point to me when in books 1-4 jkr foreshadow Ginny’s personality.

I can’t because JKR never gave us any clear indications of Ginny’s character. That’s why Ginny, in OotP, seems contrived and sudden. If JKR had allowed some type of interaction that truly displays Ginny’s character, then we wouldn’t be arguing.

Because she obviously had to do so in the first 4 books.

But she didn’t.

So perhaps there are scenes where jkr explained were Ginny was funny, witty, loyal, etc.

I didn’t find Ginny funny, witty, or loyal, at all; she never made a joke; she never made any snarky come-backs, and she never displays any sort of loyalty. She did display her dependence to her family, and admiration to her brothers; she contributed to my image of her as a little-girl.

That new spunky and great personality had to be present in the first 4 books.

But they weren’t.

So perhaps there are scenes that you consider that are better that say that Ginny is funny etc.

Nope. I didn’t find her funny at all.

I don’t mean all the negatives things I meant her new great personality that everybody likes now a days.

I never pointed out any negative-side of her character. I didn’t denounce her at all. I have merely pointed out her superficial crush on Harry as being a typical hero-worshipping fan-girl.

Sorry but to me it’s was quite clear that the twins wrote that Valentine but Draco accused Ginny because she was the one who pass by him, she’s liked Harry and she was the easiest target.

Seriously GillyAnn, can you direct me to one specific quote that even suggests such a ridiculous idea? Besides, if Ginny didn’t write the Valentine, why did she get embarrassed and run away? I’m sure “spunky” “fiery” Ginny would give some sort of denial. Plus in PoA, Ginny again, gave Harry a card; it is another singing card in fact; how can you blatantly ignore cannon?

Ginny horrified faced came when she saw the diary not when the Valentines was given to Harry.

I never said otherwise. But you still can’t prove that the twins wrote the card.

It was when Draco ‘yelled spitefully’ at her that she ‘cover her face with her hands and ran into class.’

Again, why? Why not deny it? Why not say something? Anything?

Yet when Harry told her about the diary she never suspected that it could be dangerous.

Again, the diary didn’t start writing back yet; to Harry, Ron, and Hermione, it was just a blank note-book that no one bothered filling it in. Besides, Hermione was trying to decipher it when she tried a spell on it along with a magical eraser.

Yes if we compared Hermione is equally naïve. We don’t know if Rita is in contanct with Voldemort or not.

We have never been given any indicators that Rita is connected with Voldemort in anyway.

We don’t know what contacts Rita has in the ministry or in the Wizarding world.

She did seem to know the ministry well; in GoF, it specifically states that she wrote an article about a foreign ministry meeting.

Rita would be a lot more helpful and restrained if Dumbledore, who happens to be extremely powerful wizard and one that people fear, would have a hold of her.

What is Rita? Some kind of wild, crazy monster that needs to be restrained? If you feel this way, then perhaps Azkaban would suit Rita as a better constraint.

Much better than a 15 year old girl that came to the wizarding world 5 years ago.

Not necessarily

The right thing was, upon catching her, take her to Dumbledore’s office and leave it there.

Oh yes, and punish Rita and leave her spending the rest of her pathetic life as a beetle.

I’m SURE that Dumbledore’s have much better methods than Hermione.

Yes, eventually Dumbledore will have to let her go.

What would happened if Rita finds someones that register her as an animagus? Hermione won’t have anything to black mail her with and Rita could write anything she wants once again.

Precisely. That is why Hermione didn’t turn Rita in. That way, Hermione could blackmail Rita into helping Harry.

I’m sure Dumbledore would have had much better used for Rita and much more control.

Hmm. I doubt that.

Perhaps all those stories wouldn’t have been written if Dumbledore would had had control of Rita.

The only way to “control” Rita is to use the imperius curse. I’m sure Dumbledore wouldn’t like to spend the rest of his life in Azkaban would he. Any other form of magic that impedes with the freedom of another being is illegal

Again and like you said, that is open to interpretation I’m asking for statements.

Just because Ginny doesn’t say, “Harry is the boy-who-lived” doesn’t mean she doesn’t view him that way. If you’re going for pure, concrete statements, then many other things will have to be debunked. For example, Ron never states that he likes Hermione, so I’m just going to take it as older-brotherly protection. Crabbe and Goyle never specifically state that they hate Harry, so I’m going to assume that they’re all great friends. Remember, action speaks louder than words, and Ginny’s actions clearly place her into the fan-girl category.

Again I’m asking for statements. Those are open to interpretation like you said.

They’re not open to interpretation. They’re facts proven by a character’s actions. The only way to find an alternative “interpretation” to an established fact is to twist cannon.

Obviously what Ron has been saying since he is the one who talks all about Harry.

Ron didn’t say he talks about Harry; Ron said Ginny did.

None of them are in love with the boy who lived or liked Harry in a romantic connotation and Harry very clearly states that it was his first visit to the burrow what made her be so ‘Taken’ with him.

Again, I didn’t say that all of them had a crush on Harry; I merely stated that all of them viewed Harry as the “boy-who-lived.” As far as Ginny being taken with Harry upon his first visit to the burrow merely contributes to the fact that she is a fan-girl having a superficial crush on the hero. She doesn't *know* Harry in his first visit to the burrow

I think Harry and Doris Crawford would be a distourbing pair.

I agree.

Yes same as Hermione who follows him around even though they don’t want her attention.

As I stated before, Hermione only followed them once. She was trying to prevent them from going to the midnight duel; she was trying to stop them from breaking rules and losing points. She was not stalking Harry trying to get a glance at his scar or trying to get his autograph. There is a big difference.

Some true statements about Harry all this probably based on Ron’s words.

What are you talking about?

Oh but those are Fred’s words not Ginny’s.

So? Fred clearly said, “She’ll be wanting your autograph Harry.” Why would he lie?
In PoA, Hagrid clearly said that Ginny wouldn’t mind a signed photograph.
Although Ginny never said, “Please Harry, could I have your autograph? Please? Please? Please?” Cannon has established that Ginny hero-worshipped Harry and other character’s comments only cemented this.

So since Ron has also been talking about Harry he needs an Autograph and Mr. Weasley and we should add Mrs. Weasley since she is also pleased to meet her. She is not even angry that her sons risked their lives to rescue Harry. Very fan girl all of them.

What? You’re purely speculating. Give me a QUOTE.

You’re trying to put 2 and 2 together and get 5. Impossible.Same as you!

Please be more original; reiterating me is not going to get you anywhere. BTW how am I being unreasonable?

Oh! but if she knows all about him she can talk all about him. Just like everyone else.

She can, but she didn’t. Cannon never suggested otherwise.

Yes I see. But Hermione follow Harry and Ron even though they truly didn’t like her. Ginny never pushed or forced to be part of the trio.

Hermione *never* tried to be a part of Harry and Ron. It wasn’t her fault that the troll came on her; it wasn’t her fault that Harry noticed that she was missing from dinner; it wasn’t her fault that Harry remembered her in times of crisis; it wasn’t her fault they decided to come and tell her; it wasn’t her fault that she was locked up with the troll in the bathroom; it wasn’t her fault that Harry and Ron decided to do something about it instead of watching her get eaten by the troll; she became their friend accidentally; she never tried to become friends with Harry and Ron.
BTW Hermione never forced to be a part of the TRIO. There wasn’t a trio before they became friends. As far as Ginny butting in, you do see a lot of instances in OotP.

You are basing fan girl behaviour I's applying it to everybody.

The point is, you *can’t* apply it to everyone, because not everyone behaved like a fan-girl like Ginny.

If Ginny is a fan girl the same is applied to Hermione.

That’s what you’re hoping to accomplish, but too bad you can’t. Nice effort though :clap:

I’m appling the same rule to all girls.

Not all girls acted like fan-girls; some of them did; Ginny in particular, but not Hermione.

Is exactly the same neither Ron or Harry wanted Hermione’s attention. She was following them, being pretentious, saying ‘specially you Harry’ that clealy classifies as Fan girl.

Can you post the entire quote? Because in GoF, Hermione did state this. She was trying to persuade Harry to use his free-time to work on the egg. I don't see how this classify as fan-girl behavior. Then again, you might be talking of another quote. If so, please quote the entire section. I really would like to see it.
Also, you’d think Ron would like all the fan-girl attention; in GoF, he was ecstatic with all the attention he was getting after the second task. Since Ron didn’t like the attention Hermione was giving them, it proved that Ron wasn’t acting like a fan-girl.

Since you insist on classify fan girl behaviour I'm applying that rule to all girls.

You can’t. You can't. and You can't. So if Ginny is a fan-girl then they all must be fan-girls. How perfectly ridiculous!

To be honest I didn't see fan girl behaviour by nobody until the 4th book

You’re kidding yourself. Not only Ginny acted that way, but in SS/PS, it specifically stated that “whispers followed Harry around all day long.” It was the first day of school too, and many people were pointing to Harry as being the guy with the glasses next to the tall red-head.

I’m not getting your position here. Either she talk about him or not. She knew him or not.

Let me clarify
1) She talked or rather gushes about him
2) She doesn’t know him at all.

If she (Ginny)did talk and knew all about him and talk about him, then Hermione did also knew all about him and spill all the books Harry was in etc.

As I’ve stated above, Ginny didn’t know him; Hermione knew the factual information about Harry. She merely told him where to look; Hermione certain doesn’t gush about Harry 24/7.

Also Ginny knew perfectly well that Harry didn't want the publicity on the book store. She was clear about that, a fan girl would disregard that and think that her hero has to like publicity.

She knew Harry didn’t want "all that", yet she still views him as the “boy-who-lived”; she still views him as the “hero who conquered the dark lord”

Even her statement would be different. Yet Ginny understands that Harry doesnt' like that kind of thing and after the final scene in SS we never see her again in the same light.

Really, I still saw her in the same light; or rather worse;
She clearly views Harry as the hero when she squealed to Molly about Harry got off from the train; worse, she was pointing…

I have always see her as being ashamed for it. It does say something about her shyness around Harry.

Yet it states that she doesn’t act normally around Harry; she sticks her elbow in the butter bowl. She peers at him from behind her door; oh yeah, her actions are worth a thousand words. She totally hero-worshipped Harry.

I have always seen that as the same curiosity as everybody else. Not fan girl behaviour. Ginny names harry and points at him.

“Names.” Funny choice of verb; you should quote cannon. She squeals and points at him…a big difference eh? Especially she didn’t know anything about him.

Fred and George wanted to ask him if he remembers about you know who, Ron wants to see his scar I think, I'm not sure or ask about it. Hermione says she knows all about him. Almost everybody has curiosity about Harry but to stretch to say fan behaviour I wouldn't. It's clearly not. They are curious, they are not being servants.

Fred and George, I agree, were curious; so was Ron, but Hermione? She told him she read about him; she doesn’t ask about Voldemort; she doesn’t ask to see his scar; she doesn’t display a single shred of curiosity; all she wanted was to find a toad and boast about her knowledge on her schoolwork. She was not curious; not at all.

You see! Ginny didn’t hover around Harry so that disqualifies her as fan girl because fan girls are always hovering, pleading, begging, screaming and at the service of their heroes.

Geez, what have you been reading? Not all fan-girls are brainless air-heads; about 90% are like Ginny. Only a few crazy ones on drugs act that the types you’re are describing.

Fan girls do anything to attract their heroes attention. Yes,

Ginny walked around Hagrid's hut in hope to catch a glance at Harry.

Ginny never tried to force her way in around Harry’s circle, she didn’t broke off her date with Neville to go with him, she shut him up in the same scene. Hardly things that fan girls do.

She looked extremely miserable did she? Clearly she wanted to go with Harry, but couldn't because Harry never asked her; Ron suggested it, but Harry never asked.

You missed that Ginny was looking for the roosters on Hagrid’s cabin. Perhaps if Hagrid would had more brain he would have realized that something was wrong with Ginny.

Please, don’t bash other characters to boost your own. Stay with the facts. Hagrid specifically said that he “met” Ginny the day before; meeting does not mean seeing her on his grounds, but actually talking with her; this was again proven when Hagrid said that Ginny commented on his pumpkins. Anyhow, it was the beginning of the school term, Ginny wasn’t controlled then. So what was she really doing there? Simple, she was trying to steal a glance at Harry.

Blushing around they person you like is not being fan girl is liking the person and being shy.

1) She was shy
2) She doesn’t know Harry
3) She had a superficial crush on Harry
With a combination of those three traits; we get Ginny: who had a hero-worshipping crush on Harry.

Fan girl is a person that is devoted to the other.

So from what you're saying, since Ginny is *not* a fan girl, she is *not* devoted to Harry? Hmm... interesting, since you are supporting H/G.

That anything he ask she will do and since Ginny never hangs around Harry I can’t classify he as a fan girl.

You don’t have to hang-around them for 24/7 to be a fan-girl. I’m sure most of the fan-girls don’t really have a chance to hang around their hero 24/7

Neither anybody else in the Wizarding World. They are curious to see who Harry is but to there to classify her as fan girl is just simply stretching it.

Unlike you, I’m not stretching anything; I am simply stating the facts that are present in cannon; I’m simply pointing out that through Ginny’s actions, she is classified as a type of fan-girl. Maybe she wasn’t the screaming, stalking psychopath, but she was definitely a fan-girl.

Again, see why she can’t be a fan girl. A fan girl must meet his hero.

Ginny met Harry, but she doesn’t know Harry, yet she had a crush on him. Again, her crush is superficial; it is a trait that fan-girls have.

Ginny knows who Harry is, she sees him, he talks to her etc.

Ginny knows Harry? No cannon evidence; she sees him that’s sure, but does he talk to her? Not often apparently.

He knows all his faults. But does she ever eagerly seek for him, forces him to be with her. No she never does; in fact she doesn’t think that Harry will like her. Fan girls usually think that their hero will fall for them automaticly.

Nope; fan-girls usually have enough sense to realize that their heroes have another million fans. Not all girls assume that their hero or idol will fall in love with them.

To Gillyann: I really do enjoy our discussions, but please do not attempt to make any more frivolous arguments that aren't supported by cannon or even remotely suggested, or try to denounce a fact that has already been established or shown in cannon.

I could ask the same thing to you.

But you couldn’t, because I never made any frivolous arguments not supported or suggested by cannon. I never argued that Hermione was acting like a crazy fan-girl when she followed them to prevent them from hurting themselves as well as breaking rules; I never said that Hagrid was stupid when he said that Ginny wanted to steal a glance at Harry when she clearly did, shown in the end of SS. I never made the suggestion that Fred and George wrote a VALENTINE to Harry; I never suggested that Fred was lying when he told Harry that Ginny wanted an autograph. I never suggested that it was Mr. and Mrs. Weasley who wanted Harry’s autograph instead of Ginny.

Essentially what you're doing is this:

1) Either everyone is a fan-girl like Ginny,
2) or everyone is only curious about Harry, so Ginny isn't a fan-girl
3) or Hermione is a fan-girl ( :rolleyes: ) so Ginny has the excuse to be one.
4) or Ginny is not a fan girl, but Hermione is, and so are the other people

I don't don't your definition of fan-girl, but mine is this:

A fan-girl is someone who has a superficial crush, or an unhealthy obsession about someone she didn't truly know.

~Polaris

P.S. GillyAnn:
If I made any frivolous arguments or defended my ship with anything non-cannon, then please point it out to me, and I’ll be glad to justify my posts. :D

Turambar

September 9th, 2003, 2:14 am

Hello all,

I was watching The Two Towers on DVD before and a few of the Harry/Frodo parallels struck me really forcefully:
1) the hero has a unique and powerful connection to the enemy
2) that connection grows progressively stronger and worse for the hero as his 'journey' continues
3) the hero is marked permanently by the enemy
4) the hero gains extra powers/sight/perception through this connection

With Frodo the connection is through carrying the ring but also through his scar from the Witch King's knife at Weathertop - the "wound that will never heal" which is symbolic of all the hurts he suffers and can never find peace from.
With Harry in OOTP, there's the prophesy connection, Voldemort is able to enter his mind, his ability to read Voldemort's emotions increases, his scar prickles and his head frequently hurts.
The scene in the movie where Frodo falls into the pool in the Dead Marshes also reminded me a lot of Harry being tempted by the black veil.

It really made me wonder whether JKR is planning to make things so bad for Harry that death is the only release.
The light at the end of the tunnel is that, unlike for Frodo, there is the possibility of romantic love for Harry. For Frodo friendship love and loyalty, embodied by Sam, isn't ultimately enough.
Perhaps that romantic love could be the source of 'peace' for Harry in the end.

Earendil

September 9th, 2003, 3:14 am

Nice to see a post from you every now and then, Turambar. Well spotted on the Harry/Frodo parallels--I do think that we're looking at a similar ending for the HP series, in that Harry may never find peace or relief from his burdens other than in death. The other alternative is, as you said, to find hope in love, and this is more likely because of the thematic foreshadowing we've been given in the form of the Mystery Room and Dumbledore's words about love being the only thing LV cannot understand.

Great point, Turambar (and are you enjoying the DVD? I borrowed it on VHS, so I have yet to see the wonderful features. :sad: )

Concerning fan-girls:
Polaris and GilyAnn are holding an interesting discussion about what constitutions 'fan-girlish' behavior, and I do think that it's important to focus on the motivations of the girl rather than her behavior, in order to determine whether she is a fan-girl or not. Honestly, we can argue that Ginny wasn't squealing and badgering and stalking Harry 24/7 and is therefore not a fan-girl, but the fact remains that behavior VARIES from person to person. A person stops being just a regular fellow human being and starts being a hero-worshipper when she (or he) pays extra attention to a famous person only because of the famous person's reputation. She doesn't need to be giggly or goggle-eyed every hour of the day in order to be a fan-girl: she needs to worship him because of the fact that he's famous rather than because he is a lovely human being, which, unfortunately, is exactly what Ginny did in the first four books.

She didn't know Harry. She had heard plenty about him from her siblings, but I've heard plenty about Mel Gibson and that does not mean that I could walk up to him and know his personality like the back of my hand. She spent time with him that could only place her on the level of acquantance, and this still cannot possibly indicate that she knows him well enough to be in love with him. I tend to view a person who thinks she knows someone's soul so deeply to love them without even speaking ten words to him in her lifetime to be something along the lines of a stalker.

tree guardian

September 9th, 2003, 3:18 am

Turambar

September 9th, 2003, 4:28 am

Thanks Earendil. I mean obviously there were parallels to begin with but I just thought after watching it again that the parallels have been deepened a lot because of what happened to Harry in OOTP. And also the way JKR has started to work in some sad scenes, some sad foreshadowing.
For some reason I like TTT better on DVD than I did in the theatres and it looks as though the EE will make Faramir more like the book Faramir, thankfully. And ROTK is looking good.

Mad Eye Mike

September 9th, 2003, 5:06 am

BlackKnight86 - :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

That's for your last post. Brilliant rebuttle.

Grace Granger

September 9th, 2003, 5:09 am

Quote from DaveyDee (several emphases added):
--------------------------------------------------------------
I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we're all perfectly happy with the thread as it is. You only need look at a site such as
Portkey to see how stultified a forum which is overly-organised can become. Verbose statements followed by lots of very like-minded people telling you how wonderful you are and how much they agree with your words of wisdom. Wonderful for the ego. Rather less wonderful for varied and stimulating dicussion.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Ah...a thinly-veiled personal insult. It's refreshing to see that there are still people who are nominally skilled at that art, unlike the bull-in-a-china-shop approach that one so often sees today. Still, you could at least make it a challenge.....:

Before I start, I want to make clear to you that I'm not trying to change the format of cosforums. I made a suggestion when I first posted; someone told me that it wouldn't fly - works fine for me! Having said that:

1. First bolded statement - Uhhh...did you take a poll? If so, where are the results? How many people on this forum, and how many did you query? Does that include the moderators? How about the one who shut the thread down after Labor Day, so all the adults could have a "time-out"? Now, those people who complain that we keep going "around in circles" - are they perfectly happy, too?

2. Second bolded statement - From dictionary.com

Stultify - To render useless or ineffectual; cripple. To cause to appear stupid, inconsistent, or ridiculous.

I don't suppose you would be too put out if I asked you to elaborate on how you came to this conclusion about Portkey. I mean, "useless" and "ineffectual" are specific only in the absolute; and "stupid", "inconsistent", and "ridiculous" are very general words in any usage. No doubt you have an excellent expository essay explaining your position in detail, including a specific contrast with Sugarquill that demonstrates how websites like that are supposed to be done, and a definition and standards for what constitutes "overly-organized".

3. Third bolded statement - not knowing to which statements you're referring, I cannot address this specifically; however, I can say that I've seen that error on both sides and at both shipper sites. Perhaps that's an occupational hazard when you have an "overly-relaxed" forum.

4. Fourth bolded statement - "Varied and stimulating discussion"

Uh, are you joking??! You don't think the challenge of successfully defending your point of view with specifics is stimulating? Or, conversely, you don't think that looking at something from another person's point of view and possibly seeing it a bit differently because their disagreement forces you to reassess your own viewpoint is invigorating? Wow....I don't know that I can add anything to that.....

:clap: Very good reply to DD, BlackKnight.

noddwyd

September 9th, 2003, 5:11 am

The Harry/Frodo parallel is very interesting. Frodo and Sauron were fighting on more than just the physical plane. There was the conflict within Frodo because of the ring slowly poisoning his mind. And you're right, it kept getting worse as he got closer to his goal. It as they say, the closer you get to the light at the end, the darker and more concentrated your shadow becomes behind you. And Frodo took some damage to his soul that could not be repaired in middle-earth, but I think they said in the light of the Valar it could heal eventually, or he could at least find peace in the halls of Mandos in any case. But I think what JKR wants to show through Harry, is that such wounds can be healed, not through the power of gods or the peace that death brings, but through the power of humanity, (which is too often uderestimated) and the light of love.

tree guardian

September 9th, 2003, 5:20 am

Fairydust

September 9th, 2003, 5:41 am

13 pages I've missed all thanks to school. Well cheers to fellow shipmates. Cheers to opposers. Great posts everyone.

Turambar

September 9th, 2003, 5:58 am

I hope so Noddwyd.
With Tolkien healing after war takes the form of landscapes being renewed and communities re-energised but with a sense of older things being permanently lost. Sam is the one who gains family happiness, healing through humanity.
The interesting thing is that at that stage Frodo is beyond the understanding of most others.
With Harry, JKR has ensured that Hermione keeps pace with him, so far at least.

Polaris15

September 9th, 2003, 7:03 am

Concerning fan-girls:
Polaris and GilyAnn are holding an interesting discussion about what constitutions 'fan-girlish' behavior, and I do think that it's important to focus on the motivations of the girl rather than her behavior, in order to determine whether she is a fan-girl or not. Honestly, we can argue that Ginny wasn't squealing and badgering and stalking Harry 24/7 and is therefore not a fan-girl, but the fact remains that behavior VARIES from person to person. A person stops being just a regular fellow human being and starts being a hero-worshipper when she (or he) pays extra attention to a famous person only because of the famous person's reputation. She doesn't need to be giggly or goggle-eyed every hour of the day in order to be a fan-girl: she needs to worship him because of the fact that he's famous rather than because he is a lovely human being, which, unfortunately, is exactly what Ginny did in the first four books.

She didn't know Harry. She had heard plenty about him from her siblings, but I've heard plenty about Mel Gibson and that does not mean that I could walk up to him and know his personality like the back of my hand. She spent time with him that could only place her on the level of acquantance, and this still cannot possibly indicate that she knows him well enough to be in love with him. I tend to view a person who thinks she knows someone's soul so deeply to love them without even speaking ten words to him in her lifetime to be something along the lines of a stalker.

Excellent Earendil. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Great posts Harmonians! Other shippers as well!

FlyingPhoenix

September 9th, 2003, 8:53 am

Its even more surprising that after Ginny get to know Harry her crush starts to vanish thats very interesting. Even her fan-girl behaiviour did change because Harry isn't the hero which she always thought he was.

No he is rather plain and clueless as to be this type of a hero which you see or rather want to see.
Thats why its interesting that Ginny starts to change her view. Do you know whan? Its not really in GoF its changed in PoA as she saw how weak he can be. A hero isn't weak especially not the guy who fighted against Riddle. But he is. First he fainted, by the way interest that we didn't saw Ginny reaction to that, than he falls from his bromstick don't you think this affected her?

It did how you can see in GoF where she started to speak with him. It needed only one step to wake up and that was to realise that Harry is complett uninterest in Ginny that he ignor her.

What he still do in OotP its only Ginny who start to speak with him so he can't ignore her always because this would be rude.

By the way I do think OotP would be possible if Ginny didn't even appear in it thats how important she is for the plot.

Now to Turambar first I'm glad to see your post again I really started to miss it.

It really made me wonder whether JKR is planning to make things so bad for Harry that death is the only release.
The light at the end of the tunnel is that, unlike for Frodo, there is the possibility of romantic love for Harry. For Frodo friendship love and loyalty, embodied by Sam, isn't ultimately enough.
Perhaps that romantic love could be the source of 'peace' for Harry in the end.

You put it very well thats where my fears lay that JKR is going to torture Harry more and more so that he discover that there are things which are indeed worst as dead that say to suffer. That say only one thing can let him go on and thats not to kill Voldemort.

GilyAnn

September 9th, 2003, 12:22 pm

I don't recall any forshadowing of Ginny's character in the first 4 books. She was written out as Ron's little sister who just so happened to have a crush on the boy-who-lived. She hardly had any book time in the first 4 books, so we could only guess what she would have been like prior to the release of the Ootp. After reading OoTP, I was quite surprised at how much Ginny is like her brothers, Fred and George. I don't recall that being forshadowed in the first 4 books.

I can’t because JKR never gave us any clear indications of Ginny’s character. That’s why Ginny, in OotP, seems contrived and sudden. If JKR had allowed some type of interaction that truly displays Ginny’s character, then we wouldn’t be arguing.

I'm sorry to say that JKR did foreshadow it. JKR has said repeatedly that she foreshadows things before putting them on the books. Do you all think that she is that LOUSY of a writter that she did that without any foreshadowing?

I didn’t find Ginny funny, witty, or loyal, at all; she never made a joke; she never made any snarky come-backs, and she never displays any sort of loyalty. She did display her dependence to her family, and admiration to her brothers; she contributed to my image of her as a little-girl.

Well then I see that there is no point on debating with you. Obviously that's the personality I was talking about. The one that even Non-shippers agree it existed there and the one that everyone is in love now.

Gily Ann

Edit:
Polaris and GilyAnn are holding an interesting discussion about what constitutions 'fan-girlish' behavior, and I do think that it's important to focus on the motivations of the girl rather than her behavior, in order to determine whether she is a fan-girl or not. Honestly, we can argue that Ginny wasn't squealing and badgering and stalking Harry 24/7 and is therefore not a fan-girl, but the fact remains that behavior VARIES from person to person. A person stops being just a regular fellow human being and starts being a hero-worshipper when she (or he) pays extra attention to a famous person only because of the famous person's reputation. She doesn't need to be giggly or goggle-eyed every hour of the day in order to be a fan-girl: she needs to worship him because of the fact that he's famous rather than because he is a lovely human being, which, unfortunately, is exactly what Ginny did in the first four books.

She didn't know Harry. She had heard plenty about him from her siblings, but I've heard plenty about Mel Gibson and that does not mean that I could walk up to him and know his personality like the back of my hand. She spent time with him that could only place her on the level of acquantance, and this still cannot possibly indicate that she knows him well enough to be in love with him. I tend to view a person who thinks she knows someone's soul so deeply to love them without even speaking ten words to him in her lifetime to be something along the lines of a stalker.

Let's see a fanatic is a person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

Where does Ginny is every hour of the day behind Harry asking him things, pushing her way into his life. Where does Ginny show and extreme enthusiasm or unreasoning behaviour that she won't leave Harry alone. It's funny you say that you cannot know someone famous because you don't know all about them. That's exactly what Hermione says that she knows all about Harry. Ginny never claims that she knows all about Harry. Does she? I think it's simply ridiculous to state this when we neither of them are.

It's funny that most take the word of a character is not fully trusted (Ron)and think sometimes he is slow when the books tells us that he also was talking about Harry. I've heard repeatedly how slow Ron is and there is proof in the book that it was Ron doing the most talking. It's one of the reasons we believe that Mr. Weasley thinks in PoA that Ron and Harry have ended twice in the forbidden forest. When in fact Ron had only been there once and that was in CoS. Obviously Ron blabbed out all of their 'adventures' on first year otherwise Mr. Weasley wouldn't think that his son was in his first year on the forbidden forest.

I agree that a fan girl a fan boy or a fanatic is somewhat of a stalker. Now I clearly see no indications of Ginny being this since based on the assumptions of most of you. Ginny hardly talks and avoids Harry. That makes Ginny the most weird stalker of all times. :rolleyes:

Turambar

September 9th, 2003, 1:31 pm

Cheers FP. I'll try and think of a few more things to say.

When I was re-reading OOTP while I was AWOL I noticed something a bit curious about the Grawp sequence.

JKR writes Harry agreeing to do things on behalf of himself and Hermione three times, without consulting her beforehand. And then later Hermione says - twice - that she and Harry promised to do things for Hagrid, even though she didn't actually verbally promise anything.

a) When Hagrid finds them at the quidditch match:
"Harry," said a hoarse voice in Harry's ear. "Hermione..."
"Listen," he whispered, "can yeh come with me? Now? While ev'ryone's watchin' the match?"
"Course," said Harry at once, "course we'll come."
He and Hermione edged back along their row of seats."
b) When Hagrid asks for help before they know what it involves:
"Because I'll - I'll need yeh two ter help me. An' Ron if he's willin...'
"Of course we'll help you," said Harry at once. "What do you want us to do?"
c) After Hagrid has asked them to look after Grawp:
"Yeh'll do it then?" said Hagrid...
"We'll.." said Harry, already bound by his promise. "We'll try, Hagrid."
"I knew I could count on yeh, Harry," Hagrid said."

Harry appears to know instinctively that Hermione would agree. An interesting thing about that is that Ron doesn't automatically agree with the promise made when they later tell him about meeting Grawp. But Hermione, by telling Ron that both she and Harry promised Hagrid, totally includes herself in the situation, even though she clearly is against having to look after Grawp:
"But, unfortunately, he made Harry and me promise."
"Well, you're just going to have to break your promise, that's all," said Ron firmly...
"It's just that - we promised," said Hermione."

After Hagrid leaves Hermione and Harry, she shows that her anger and anxiety about what they have been asked to do is directed at Hagrid, not at Harry for promising their help on her behalf. Nor does she suggest she won't help Hagrid:
"I don't believe him," said Hermione in a very unsteady voice, the moment they were out of earshot of Hagrid. "I don't believe him. I really don't believe him."

I think this is another example of JKR showing Harry and Hermione's knowledge of each other; commonality of goals; instinctive, subconcious, couple-like, partnership behaviour.
There are other indications of this in this sequence.

There are some obvious ones:
a) Such as the numerous times they share glances to communicate their thoughts
b) Harry's protective behaviour towards Hermione.
c) The way JKR writes Ron's victory scene at the end from an H/Hr point of view which stresses their togetherness and teamwork:
"They beamed up at him as he passed ... Harry and Hermione watched them go, beaming, until the last echoing strains of Weasley is our King died away. Then they turned to each other, their smiles fading.
"We'll save our news till tomorrow, shall we?" said Harry.
"Yes, all right," said Hermione wearily. "I'm not in any hurry."
"They climbed the steps together. At the front doors both instinctively looked back at the Forbidden Forest."
d) This continues the next day while Ron noticeably responds to the limelight by wanting to branch out with other people's company. Does he feel slightly trapped by his place in the trio?:
"All he wanted to do was talk over the match, so Harry and Hermione found it very difficult to find an opening in which to mention Grawp ... they persuaded him to join them in revising under the beech tree ... where they had less chance of being overheard than in the common room. Ron was not particularly keen on this idea at first - he was thoroughly enjoying being patted on the back by every Gryffindor who walked past his chair, not to mention the occasional outbursts of Weasley is our King - but after a while he agreed that some fresh air might do him good ... Ron talked them through his first save of the match for what felt like the dozenth time."
Notice the 'join them' and the detached POV of the last line. Also the H/Hr planning to coax Ron outside. As Hawk has said before, H/Hr recognise themselves as a group within a group.
e) The way Harry is able to get through to Hermione with a glance and by saying "you didn't mean that" - because she values his opinion - when she makes the comment about Umbridge chucking Hagrid out.

And some more subtle ones:
a) The way Hermione decides for both of them that they need to light their wands and then they both do so at the same time: "Hagrid, would it be all right if we lit our wands?" said Hermione quietly ... They both murmured 'Lumos' and their wand-tips ignited."
b) Using similar phrases - "How on earth did you get him back without anyone noticing?" said Harry.
"Oh Hagrid, why on earth didn't you let him!" said Hermione.
c) Harry even follows Hermione rather than Hagrid at one point - "When they reached his cabin, Hermione turned automatically left towards the front door. Hagrid however walked straight past it into the shade of the trees on the outermost edge of the forest, where he picked up a crossbow ... When he realised they were no longer with him, he turned."

Individually these indications appear small but they combine to form a pattern the author is trying to project. She chose to write the sequence in this way.

star22

September 9th, 2003, 1:42 pm

Wow, Turambar. Excellent arguements. You just made me more sure than ever that Harry/Hermione will happen and Ron/Hermione will not. Those arguements were totally right. I want to see how Ron/Hermione shippers can explain that away.

Turambar

September 9th, 2003, 2:12 pm

Thanks Star. R/Hr shippers explain such sequences away by saying they merely indicate friendship. H/Hr shippers say they are part of a pattern of gradual H/Hr build-up over the series. The fact is that Hermione really doesn't have to be in this sequence at all and in fact an obvious potential R/Hr moment was missed by having her go with Harry rather than watch Ron on his big day. Rather like the way JKR wrote both Ron and Ginny out of any Valentine's Day action with Harry and Hermione in OOTP.

Daveydee

September 9th, 2003, 2:17 pm

Thanks Star. R/Hr shippers explain such sequences away by saying they merely indicate friendship.
Which I'll be more than happy to do in greater detail later on. :agree:

However this is just a quick look in which gives me a opportunity to say how nice it is to see you back on the thread, Turambar. I always enjoyed your contributions and look forward to more of them. :D

Rowena Ravenclaw

September 9th, 2003, 2:33 pm

As always, Turambar's theory resolves on a particular H/Hr assumption: that Harry and Hermione are of one mind in most matters. However, the evidence in this incident seems tenuous. There is no direct indication that Harry follows Hermione up to Hagrid's house; he may simply stop, confused, when Hagrid doesn't go inside. Even assuming he takes the same path, it is probably not based on some kind of trust in her, but the (admittedly silly) assumption that Hagrid would want to discuss his problem over a cup of tea rather than lead them directly into danger. Likewise, once they get into the forest, Rowling describes the pair as getting tangled up and cut in an environment where "the tiniest rustle of movement...caused Harry to peer through the gloom for a culprit." Even if Hermione cannot see Harry struggling, she can hear him. Her request that they be allowed to light their wands is thus simple common sense--especially since two wands provide more light than one.

In fairness, these issues were noted as "subtle," so let's look at some of the more "obvious" points. An analysis of where and when Rowling uses glances to communicate characters' thoughts might be interesting for someone who has more time than I do, but suffice it to say this method of communication hardly seems limited to Harry and Hermione, or even potential romantic pairs. And Rowling's chapter ending not only foreshadows Grawp's reappearance later in the novel, but emphasizes Harry and Hermione's affection for Ron: both agree to set aside the distressing and clearly far more important issue of Grawp for the sake of his well-deserved victory celebration. (It's also well worth noting that news of that victory seems to restore Hermione's composure more effectively than any of Harry's reassurances.)

Moving on to the crucial issue of the post--Harry and Hermione's "shared" promise--while Hermione never verbally agrees to anything, she also never explicitly tells Hagrid anything to indicate she is uncomfortable with the arrangement. The constraint she feels thus comes not from Harry, but her own tacit consent--one which, as her clear distress immediately following the incident, as well as the "small voice" she tells Ron she promised with in indicates, is not nearly as strong as Harry's firmly held word of honor.

As for the always looming question of why Rowling chose to have Harry and Hermione go alone, there is at least one non-shipping answer. Ron, as we saw from his reaction at the Yule Ball when he found out Hagrid was part-giant, and as we can extrapolate from his attitudes toward other magical races such as house elves, already has certain conceptions of what giants are like. Harry and Hermione, because of their Muggle upbringing, do not, as evidenced by their non-reaction to Hagrid's background. By having them be the ones to encounter Grawp, Rowling is forcing them--particularly Hermione, who has spent so much time trying to grant another species human dignity--to examine whether their tolerance is genuine or mere lip service.

zoeydsngwrtr

September 9th, 2003, 3:49 pm

Wow, well, this is what I have to say.
I think Bill and Tonks would be great, he is definatly not too old for her, and as much as I like Lupin, he may be a bit too old for her....definatly need to get him someone though. Mad I is definatly way tooo old for her, but the idea of him and McGonagal, oh that makes me laugh he he he....back to the room.
I will not really get into the discussion, other than some of her personality did show through in the first four books, other than her crush on Harry, she seems to be like the Twins, I agree with that, because she does much better in the crowds than Ron, Ron has friends, but mostly he is stuck in the trio, who all have friends, but stick together mostly. Which really is not bad at all.

Mad-I Moody

September 9th, 2003, 5:04 pm

Hi, everyone. I just wanted to respond to a couple of things. I hope everyone is having a great day! It's beautiful here!

To this question:
My question is: do must of you R/Hr shippers support that ship because Ron is your favourite character? or is it because you hate Harry and you don't want him with Hermione?
I can't speak for everyone, but I personally support the ship because, when I read the books for the first time, and now, when I re-read them, the clues that I see point to that ship. Ron is not, actually, my favorite character, or even really in the top three favorite characters. I do like Ron, though. Of course I don't hate Harry. Harry is my favorite character. I don't hate Hermione, either, just in case that comes up later. I also don't think that a H/Hr relationship is impossible. I just don't think that that is the way JKR is going, and that is just my opinion. I believe that Harry will find happiness, but I don't think that his happiness lies with Hermione. So, that's my answer to that question.

BlackKnight
This is from your response to Daveydee, but, as it indirectly involves me, I thought I'd respond. :D

What I like is not the issue. We speak English where I live; our words have both definitions and connotations, and to communicate properly and effectively it is necessary to either utilize the same language, or translate. What are you currently speaking in, uh, SW England?
No reason to be rude, now. We're all writing in English, and trying, to the best of our abilities, to "utilize" the same language or translate what we think into that language.

In any case, from dictionary.com:

dense - Slow to apprehend; thickheaded.
An alternate definition, also from dictionary.com, is "stupid; gross; crass" - hence the reason that I countered Mad-I Moody with "Harry isn't stupid".

As I said before, I never meant that Harry was stupid. As you can see from your journeys with dictionary.com, "dense" can also mean "slow to apprehend."
Apprehend, meaning
1. To take into custody; arrest.
2. To grasp mentally; understand.
3. To become conscious of, as through the emotions or senses; perceive.

When I said "dense in matters of the heart," I meant that Harry is "slow to apprehend (mentally grasp, perceive) romantic emotions and interchanges."
To assume that I meant "Harry is stupid" when I said "Harry is dense when it comes to matters of the heart" is presumptuous, as you have shown that "dense" can have a variety of meanings, some of which do not mean "stupid."

Ah, but your point here was, I believe

"Dense" and "lack of experience" do not mean the same thing; hence, it is fallacious to use them interchangeably. Allow me to illustrate with a simple example. Let's say you have two people, one smart, the other "dense". Both of them lack experience at a task, thus they perform below a set standard. Let's say you take the two of them and give them each the same amount of experience. The "dense" person may still perform below the standard, even though you can argue that he now has experience. Being "dense", however, he is "slow to apprehend".

Because Daveydee said
that Harry's 'denseness', or lack of experience, if you like, in matters of the heart cuts across all aspects of that arena.
Note, the word "OR" means (from dictionary.com)
1. a. Used to indicate an alternative, usually only before the last term of a series:hot or cold; this, that, or the other.
b. Used to indicate the second of two alternatives, the first being preceded by either or whether: Your answer is either ingenious or wrong. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
c. Archaic. Used to indicate the first of two alternatives, with the force of either or whether.
2. Used to indicate a synonymous or equivalent expression: acrophobia, or fear of great heights.
3. Used to indicate uncertainty or indefiniteness: two or three.
You assume that Davey was using "OR" in the above statement to "indicate a synonymous or equivalent expression" (definition #2), when he could very well be using "OR" in order to "indicate an alternative" (definition #1). This might be why he followed his statement with "if you like," because he felt that the alternative of "lack of experience" might suit you better than my choice of "dense."

Of course, I don't know what Daveydee's intentions were, I am simply defending his position because I feel he was undeserving of some of that sarcasm.

As for this point:

Notice that I said it was "tepid (halfhearted)", as opposed to "wrong". To be "fair", I only need to show a problem with her argument that is "consistent with logic". The example that she cited was dissimilar on the surface to the scenario that I was questioning, i.e., the alleged "interest" between Ron and Hermione, in two very specific and significant ways:

1. Dissimilar perspective: Harry's perception of Cho is subjective, as he is interested in her. His perception can be affected by his feelings. Harry's perception of Ron and Hermione is objective; and, since he's been best friends with both of them for 3 1/2 years now, he should be able to recognize at the very least changes in the way the two of them interact (if not the actual interest that's supposed to be so obvious).

2. Dissimilar circumstances: Cho lost her boyfriend less than a year prior to a violent, sudden death. As a former US Army officer who had been assigned duty as a casualty officer, I can assure you that people in Cho's position (especially if they have not fully worked through their grief) perceive and react differently than people who are not in that situation (i.e., Ron and Hermione).

And that is just on the surface. These two dissimilarities can be taken further; and augmented with other examples from the text, that demonstrate my point that Harry is not "a bit...erm...dense when it comes to matters of the heart".
I think this is a valid point, and I would like these other examples that further demonstrate your point.

However, the dissimilar perspective and circumstances argument, while a good one, doesn't serve to convince me that Harry is not slow on the uptake when it comes to romance (and some other things as well). Harry hasn't a clue about the psyche of the female (and, let's face it, what male truly does? :rolleyes: ), as is shown by his questions about Cho. He cannot realize a blatant hint to ask her out. He becomes all nervous and tongue-tied when thinking of trying to get a date to the Yule Ball. You can say that Harry's perception here is "subjective" because his perception is affected by his feelings, but I don't see how his feelings for Hermione and Ron as his best friends can be thrown out in order for him to make an "objective" evaluation of their relationship. They have been his best friends since halfway through book 1, so 4 and 1/2 years have passed. In my opinion, the way Ron and Hermione interact did not change until Book 5. Harry did notice some of these changes (Ron and Hermione whispering together), and actually played a part in helping some of these changes along (Hermione and I have stopped fighting). However, what with trying to keep Voldemort from entering his mind, dealing with almost being expelled, dealing with Umbridge, being banned from Quidditch, and the host of other things that have happened in this book, I don't find it at all strange that he doesn't sit down to ruminate on the ins and outs of Ron and Hermione's relationship. Besides, Harry has been shown to lack perceptiveness on occasion – romantically charged events or no – and I'm going to have to go home and look through my books if you want specific examples. He and Ron both turn to Hermione when they don't "get" something.

Anyway, so that's what I had to say about that. Thanks! :D

Polaris

I didn’t find Ginny funny, witty, or loyal, at all; she never made a joke; she never made any snarky come-backs, and she never displays any sort of loyalty.
Isn't there a scene toward the end of OotP when Ginny jumps in to help without even really knowing the situation – maybe when Harry wants to get into Umbridge's office to see if Sirius is at 12GP? I thought she was being quite loyal there.

Turambar
I love your Harry/Frodo comparison. And, on a side note, didn't you LOVE that ROTK teaser trailer on TTT dvd? :wow:

With Tolkien healing after war takes the form of landscapes being renewed and communities re-energised but with a sense of older things being permanently lost. Sam is the one who gains family happiness, healing through humanity.
The interesting thing is that at that stage Frodo is beyond the understanding of most others.
With Harry, JKR has ensured that Hermione keeps pace with him, so far at least.
I'm going to have to disagree a bit. I mean, I agree with the part about Frodo being beyond the understanding of most others. I don't, however, agree that Hermione necessarily "keeps pace" with Harry, not in the sense of understanding him in such a way that, once his long ordeal is over, he can finally be happy with her by his side (in a romantic sense). I see strong similarities between Harry and Frodo here, in that I believe that they are on journeys, accompanied by loyal, true, loving friends – but the journey ultimately comes down to just one – Harry/Frodo. Hermione, nor any other character (save maybe Luna or Neville to a small degree) truly understand the weight of Harry's burden. Well, the burden of the prophecy has not yet been revealed, but, when it is, who will be able to truly understand what it means to Harry? The burdens Harry has shouldered to this point (death of both parents, abusive home, facing Voldemort 4 times, thinking he's being hunted by a mass-murderer, watching a classmate die, watching his godfather die, being inhabited by the most evil wizard of all time, having Voldemort break in to his mind) have been shouldered by him alone. His friends are there to support and care for him, to give him the love he so needs and desires, and they help him to find the strength he needs, but they ultimately cannot carry the "ring" for him, nor can they truly understand what it means to be a "ringbearer." That's my opinion, of course, and I certainly respect yours as well.

Thanks Star. R/Hr shippers explain such sequences away by saying they merely indicate friendship. H/Hr shippers say they are part of a pattern of gradual H/Hr build-up over the series. The fact is that Hermione really doesn't have to be in this sequence at all and in fact an obvious potential R/Hr moment was missed by having her go with Harry rather than watch Ron on his big day. Rather like the way JKR wrote both Ron and Ginny out of any Valentine's Day action with Harry and Hermione in OOTP.
I'm going to have to disagree with this. Hermione does have to be in the Grawp sequence, and it doesn't have to be foreshadowing of a h/Hr relationship. Ron is playing Quidditch; therefore, he cannot come. Harry is banned from Quidditch, so naturally, he is sitting watching the match with his other best friend, Hermione. Hagrid comes up and asks both of them to come with him and tells them it is important. Is Hagrid really only going to ask Harry? Are Harry and Hermione really going to pass up a chance to find out what's been going on with Hagrid? Are they just going to flat-out say "no, we want to watch the game, we'll come by later" when it is so obviously important that they go with Hagrid right then? I'm of the mind that it would be completely out of character for Hermione to say "Well, um, I really want to see the rest of the match." First of all (and let's assume that she does have feelings for Ron), she's watching Ron get ridiculed and embarrassed. Probably not lots of fun. Secondly, Hermione isn't going to pass up a chance to find out what is going on with Hagrid – that is completely contrary to her nature. I also like Rowena Ravenclaw's explanation about tolerance (see below).

Rowena Ravenclaw
:clap: excellent post (as usual)!!

I especially like

An analysis of where and when Rowling uses glances to communicate characters' thoughts might be interesting for someone who has more time than I do, but suffice it to say this method of communication hardly seems limited to Harry and Hermione, or even potential romantic pairs. And Rowling's chapter ending not only foreshadows Grawp's reappearance later in the novel, but emphasizes Harry and Hermione's affection for Ron: both agree to set aside the distressing and clearly far more important issue of Grawp for the sake of his well-deserved victory celebration. (It's also well worth noting that news of that victory seems to restore Hermione's composure more effectively than any of Harry's reassurances.)
Right on. Many a glance has been shared by Harry and Ginny, Ron and Harry, Ron and Hermione, Hermione and Harry, Harry and Hagrid, Harry and Sirius, Harry and Snape, Harry and Malfoy – not a solid argument for romance, in my opinion.

By having them be the ones to encounter Grawp, Rowling is forcing them--particularly Hermione, who has spent so much time trying to grant another species human dignity--to examine whether their tolerance is genuine or mere lip service.
I've never thought of it that way, but that is an extremely astute observation, and an excellent and valid alternate explanation for the reason it is Harry and Hermione and NOT the trio who encounter Grawp.

Finally, to all. I've enjoyed this part of the ever-burgeoning love thread – lots of good posts.
:clap: to my shipmates! Long may she sail.