Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom part five

Exactly the response I was looking for Sirius. All those 'moments' were part of plot development.

And what's sauce for the goose.....

Yes indeed, because H/Hr is part of the plot. Thanks for supporting my post, it's always nice to see someone from the opposing side backing you up. :)

Correct. But it is blindingly clear that if Ginny does still like Harry, it's certainly NOT because of the "fame" thing. She is not intimidated by him anymore. She is not afraid of him, or put her elbow in the butter dish anymore. Ginny has moved on from the "crush" phase

For me she don't and in canon is no hint or sign that she do still like Harry in that way. To be exactly her crush did start to vanish because of PoA and ended in GoF just because Hermione is beeing nice and tells Harry Ginny just give up as rather to say she did get that Harry ignored her and that she realise Harry is not the Harry Potter with who she did grow up don't say Ginnys crush or her feelings still exist.

However, there is no negative sign from Ginny herself.

Well, she is speaking with Harry thats hint enough for me than she isn't just speaking in a how-great-you-are-way she isn't always sweet she acts plainly normal around Harry. No crush at all. She can look into Harrys eye, she can live with Harrys love life there is not such a reaction like from Hermione about Cho for example.

What we do see from Ginny herself is very interesting- there's heaps of Quidditch symbolism, Ginny becoming suddenly more "developed" in terms of her character, having proper, extended dialougue with Harry that was non-existent in previous books, and Ginny reallyconnecting with Harry on more levels.

And why is that so? Because of Harry or rather because Ginny did lose this fan-girl view or is it posibile that JKR did realise that George and Fred leave in this book Hogwarts and there is enough space for Ginny?!

The possibility of Ginny genuinely liking Harry for what he is and not what he is made out to be is very strong.

Alright I give you this that Ginny does after 4 years looking at Harry Potter see at least Harry but does Harry see this, does he like it that Ginny was at first only interest in him because of Potter, of his scar. Does he forget this behaviour or does he forget that this is Ron's little sister?
Thats the question if Harry can this even if he has on his side a girl who didn't see Harry Potter and didn't look at him because of his scar, who was there.
Another question does he need Ginny's suddenly development that he is Harry if he has Hermione all the long who did this already?
I doubt this and two years can be pretty short.

I agree. Ginny as a fan of Harry doesn't make her shallow, a stalker, or anything like that.

I think Ginny moved on because of 1). a low success rate or/and 2). She lost interest in her infatuation

I don't think Ginny was really interested in getting to know the "real Harry" in the begining. This doesn't make her bad but as we all have agreed "a fan".

A fan is an ardent devotee or an enthusiast.
A crush is a temporary infatuation.

What was Ginny a fan of? Was she a fan of Harry as a person, as an 11yr old boy who is dealing with this new and highly unusal Wizarding World and is just this everyday kid? No. SHe was a fan of the boy in the history books. The kid in the papers and on the tip of everyone's tongue. She was enthusiastic over the fact that she had almost met and then final officially met this mysterious boy-who-lived.

So what does this prove? Not much.

But I think it does prove that Ginny like many are bound to get over their fandom, and their crushes.

I don't think Ginny truly got over her Harry-crush until the end of GoF. But I think she was over her fandom by end of PoA. I think her reaction to Harry asking Cho was telling to her still holding a slight crush on Harry. I think it said she'd have would have gone with Harry if she could've but she knew her already stated obligation to go with Neville and as the Weasly's are loyal. I am not saying that Ginny thought Neville was an unworthy date but I think she thought Harry to be a better date.

Now GoF and anything PoA are places to consider option 2.) she gave up on account of a low success rate.

Did Ginny really ever try to persue a romantic anything with Harry?

I'd have to say no, IMO.

In CoS Ginny gave Harry a Valentine's card and later in PoA she gives him a singing card? Does this indicate love? No, I don't think so because as we know, Ginny was a fan. Fans send valentine cards, christmas cards, hey I just had a boy/girl card!, and the like. Fans even send food and chocolate gifts (I am not reffering to the egg in OotP.). So no I do not signify Ginny's cards to love but to her fandom, and to her natural thoughtfulness, more so.

Ginny never asked Harry who he was taking to the Ball, yet she says she agreed to go with Neville becasue 1.) he asked her, and 2.) she couldn't go otherwise because she wasn't a 4th year. Harry had the same seniority factor to get Ginny to the Ball as Neville. Harry also needed a date. Why was there zero indication that Ginny had even considered Harry as a possibility? Was it because she never really considered Harry an acutal date type probability? I think so, she never really considered Harry as a possiblity. Other girls were asking Harry why not Ginny? b/c she was shy? Not even a query about who he might be taking in passing. Nothing. In one - four books we don't see pursuit or interest in an actual relationship with Harry from Ginny. I don't think Ginny would have minded a personal relationship with Harry but I don't think it was something she was particularly interested in.

one could argue that yes she did consider Harry, but there is zero canon to indicate or suggest or even hint that Ginny had actually considered Harry a possibility before she found out he was still available.

If it's not implied or written in canon then where is the probability?

In OotP Ginny was over her crush of Harry that I believe is true. I do not think Ginny loves Harry, no. I ask how could she? Ginny's actual relationship with Harry is slight. I still do noi discount the possiblity that romantic interest could happen between Harry and Ginny in Bks 6 or 7, but I think it would be far fetched to call it love. (which leads back to my question as to what would be the literary interest in writing subplot like that.) :)

Enough for now, peace. :)

Edit: I do think at some point, particularly after she was over her fandom did a natural interest in who Harry really was sprung up. But did the natural interest amount to a friendship beyond what it was after her fandom faded? No, I don't think so. I do think that circumstance placed Ginny in and Harry in each others lives so that learning about one another more was bound, especially in OotP.

I don't think that Ginny likes Harry because of his fame, that may have been it at first, but really right now, Ginny seems to be living her own (slightly popular) life. I think in the end that Ginny and Harry will wind up falling for each other, and really, I think it will be Harry who falls first.

First I complett agree with you here you put it very well into words tree guardian
which leads back to my question as to what would be the literary interest in writing subplot like that.)


Which leads to the same question for R/Hr. Where is the the interest plot? Is it important that they fall for each other? Or is it just a waste of time because first we won't read it, we won't see it. It would just happen thats all without a why for the plot and without a reason for the plot.

Evolution of Ginny's Feelings

Fan Girl--->Crush--->Like
Book 1--->Book 2/3--->Book 4/5(?)

Flying Phoenix:
Because I don't think Harry can or rather shouldn't be together because such a girl even Ginny did change her thinking but its Harry who has a problem and that is everybody see Harry Potter and his scar and I promise you this will become an issue in book6 because this scar is the reason why. And Ginny was one off this people who did look at him like that what Hermione didn't was not even at the beginning.

Sometimes I think, because of the above reasoning, that Hermione is better suited for Harry. She wasn't brought up hearing stories about Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort. She's oblivious until she reads about him in a book and perhaps the effect of it was as though she were reading a story, an unrealistic tale, because she was not brought up hearing about him until she finally meets him. Yet, she brushes him off because he is, after all, a normal boy. Others may view him as this living legend that they heard about and know what happened is not just a story, but it a reality.

Am I making sense? :whistle:

Thanks for the compliment FlyingPheonix.

Which leads to the same question for R/Hr. Where is the the interest plot? Is it important that they fall for each other? Or is it just a waste of time because first we won't read it, we won't see it. It would just happen thats all without a why for the plot and without a reason for the plot.

But I have to say that I do see the interest in R/Hr. I don't particularly want it to happen but I can see the interest in R/Hr from a literary view and a fan of the series view. Why? B/C Ron and Hermione's happieness have a direct impact on Harry more than anyone other players in the HP series. R/Hr like H/Hr would have an impact on unity factor and I think the plot of the series. I don't see H/G having such an impact. Like I've said before, H/G would signify Harry's comming of age, and road through life, and his teen yrs and what not, but I don't think it would have an impact on the sense of unity or community or the "love" theme of the HP series. Why? Mainly b/c I don't think any relationship H/G could generate would surpass slight-hood and would not come close to the love Harry is already recieving from Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, and Hagrid. (All the loves from the preceding listed people are all different but all the same. The differences are just as important as the sameness.)

:) Love and Happiness

Edit: I do think that Ginny is important to the plot in a minor way. I say minor b/c I believe Ginny to be a minor character who is also a round character. I think the hints at clairvoyance, cat transfiguration, Quidditch playing, and DA clubbing are definately important to the plot but not to a better/deeper friendship/ romantic relationship with Harry.

B/C Ron and Hermione's happieness have a direct impact on Harry more than anyone other players in the HP series. R/Hr like H/Hr would have an impact on unity factor and I think the plot of the series.

I see your point but does Harry happines depent on it or could this lead more to his unhappines? I don't think it makes Harry happy not at all. Because he will feel like a threeth wheel because the two closest people he has on this world have something what he don't has. Because this two people would leave him more alone not willing but left him feeling alone in this world. After Sirius dead they are the only one which are that important to him. Both only his thought at them did rescue his live in a time as he was without happines to create a patronus. I really doubt this would Harry make happy if I knew this than you can be sure I would see the same reason like you. But I don't.

tree guardianFirst I complett agree with you here you put it very well into words tree guardian
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Flying Phoenix
Which leads to the same question for R/Hr. Where is the the interest plot? Is it important that they fall for each other? Or is it just a waste of time because first we won't read it, we won't see it. It would just happen thats all without a why for the plot and without a reason for the plot.

My question is if JKR is going to write R/Hr as a subplot, will she start using a different POV. Because I would like to know what's going down between them.

tree guardian
But I have to say that I do see the interest in R/Hr. I don't particularly want it to happen but I can see the interest in R/Hr from a literary view and a fan of the series view. Why? B/C Ron and Hermione's happieness have a direct impact on Harry more than anyone other players in the HP series. R/Hr like H/Hr would have an impact on unity factor and I think the plot of the series. I don't see H/G having such an impact. Like I've said before, H/G would signify Harry's comming of age, and road through life, and his teen yrs and what not, but I don't think it would have an impact on the sense of unity or community or the "love" theme of the HP series. Why? Mainly b/c I don't think any relationship H/G could generate would surpass slight-hood and would not come close to the love Harry is already recieving from Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, and Hagrid. (All the loves from the preceding listed people are all different but all the same. The differences are just as important as the sameness.)

Interesting.... :huh:

Hello Daveydee, i see you never responded to my previous post i did about your theory on whether Hermione likes Ron and all that, but i don't blame you for some reason i couldn't post the whole thing together and so i had to split it up and it must have been very confusing, so i appoligise for that.
Now i'm going to be picking at your post again, sorry.
Yes - another questionable central plank of the H/Hr perspective: the notion that JK is strategically placing Harry and Hermione together in situations and thereby missing any opportunity to portray R/Hr.
Well, all I can say is consider these missed opportunities to portray H/Hr:
- POA: Ron and Hermione waiting together outside Florean Fortescues,
- POA: Ron and Hermione working together on Buckbeak's defence,
- GOF: Ron and Hermione together at the Burrow over summer,
- OotP: Ron and Hermione made prefects together,
- OotP: Ron and Hermione together in the hospital wing,
- OotP: Ron and Hermione together at Grimmauld Place over summer,
- OotP: Ron and Hermione partnering in DA,
- OotP: Ron and Hermione each without a Valentine date.
Oh lordy lord, and those are just some of the occasions I think of without going back to the text. If JK wanted to portray a potential H/Hr pairing, it seems like several opportunites were missed.
Ok i suppose we ought to let Ron and Hermione have some alone time together, they are friends after all, but get this...

Right now i'm currently re-reading COS and i found this

-'When Harry had taken his place between Ron and Hermione... '

This is half way through the Gilderoy Lockhart chapter when they have their Herbology lesson.
Its odd don't you think that Ron and Hermione don't sit next to each other when they walk into class, i mean Harry could have sat either side of them but no they leave a space for Harry, why, do you suppose?

Now i don't have my other books with me at the moment so i can't check this but i think through out most of the books Harry is usually in between Ron and Hermione, so if they supposedly like each other why don't they sit next to each other, i mean its not like its going to harm anyone. Like i said don't have my books so i could be wrong, but i'm taking it from memory, so you will have to excuse the sloppiness of this post.
However my interpretation on this is that they both just want to sit next to Harry, its not unusual for a young lad to want to sit next to his guy friend so they can have a laugh during class, but what about Hermione? what difference would it be if she sat on the other side of Ron, none...yet she usually chooses to sit next to Harry.
God i'm sorry if you have no idea what i'm talking about, i'm actually quite ill with a bad cold at the moment and i think its effecting my brain :scared: anyway bye

Oh and that reminds me...
Got a problem with SW England? I live in South England and go to boarding school in Newbury which could be considered as SW England- so I don't really appreciate what you say.
Hey AK i live in south west England too and i was actually going to respond to that, but now because you did all i have to do is agree with you. Although i don't think BlackKnight86 really meant to insult anyone about it, except Daveydee obviously, which is not nice.

OotP: Ron and Hermione made prefects together

No, this is not a missed moment. JKR wrote a beautiful scene which shows how much Hermione expected Harry to be a prefect with her and just how disappointed she was because she wouldn't be getting to share the experience with Harry. She had no such reaction to Ron, only embarrassment after putting her foot in her mouth thinking it was Harry, and then adding insult to injury by asking if they were sure Harry wasn't the prefect. This isn't a missed H/Hr moment, this IS an H/Hr moment.

I don't remember Hermione having a disappointed look or tone in the scene where she finds out Harry isn't prefect. But then again, my dad has book 5 and has had it for quite some time. I thought she was shocked, and justifiably so, that Ron had gotten prefect over Harry. Everyone expected Harry to be prefect. But she doesn't voice her disappointment, if she has any, that Harry didn't make prefect, even when they are alone together in the room after Ron leaves. She asks to use his owl.


OotP: Ron and Hermione each without a Valentine date

I love this part. You see, this is not a missed H/Hr moment. The H/Hr moment was there because Hermione had asked Harry to meet her in the Three Broomsticks on Valentine's Day. This is a lovely piece of imagery and a nice H/Hr moment. However, this is a very, very nicely missed R/Hr moment, because if JKR wanted to show something, she could have had Ron be present and talking to Hermione when Harry turned up at the Three Broomsticks or had Hermione take Ron back some sweets just like she did for Harry in POA. This is a definate H/Hr moment and a missed R/Hr moment, not the other way around.
Is the inclusion of Luna in this oh-so-romantically charged scene important at all? Is the fact that this meeting is an interview during which Harry is to spill his guts about arguably the most painful event of his life (besides losing his parents) to a reporter whom he probably loathes significant? Or do we just leave out the details of the scene, including the other characters present during the scene, and take it as Hermione and Harry meet during Valentine's Day = romance is in the air?

POA: Ron and Hermione waiting together outside Florean Fortescues

Given the nature of this scene, I don't think this was a missed opportunity at all. Remember, this was a scene where Harry finally finds Ron and Hermione in Diagon Alley. If this is a missed moment for H/Hr, it's also a missed moment for R/Hr. This is for the simple reason that this is a scene purely about Harry meeting his friends again after the summer. Interestingly enough, it did contrast Hermione's being worried over what happened to Harry as opposed to Ron's seeing it as a big joke. If anything this is a moment showing the different nature of Harry's friends toward him than anything romantic.
Well, we must remember that Ron and Hermione have been together for most, if not all of the day, going from shop to shop, looking for Harry. They must get on well enough by themselves, unless, of course, they wandered around silently. Also, remember the letters they sent to Harry prior to his leaving Privet Drive. Hermione mentions Ron a lot in there – they've obviously been communicating over the summer.

POA: Ron and Hermione working together on Buckbeak's defence

Which interestingly enough, we were not privy to see or hear about. However, as far as Buckbeak goes, JKR chose to write it so Harry and Hermione flew together on Buckbeak, a Greek symbol of love later on. Ron and Hermione working on Buckbeak's defense can't be a missed H/Hr moment, because JKR didn't go into it to demonstrate any R/Hr in there.

Well, Ron and Hermione do "practice together" on the chestnut colored hippogriff during CoMC class. :lol: Also, just for the new folks on the thread, the hippogriff has been referenced by some as a symbol of love. It can also be found referenced as a symbol of impossibility or impossible love, depending on which source you use and which ship you prefer. :D Just didn't want anyone to be misled on that.

EDIT: Buckbeak
There are a few instances throughout the books where JKR points out who is sitting next to whom. At times, Hermione sits down next to Ron, at other times, Harry. At times, Ron sits next to Hermione, at others -- Harry. Same with Harry and both Ron and Hermione. I haven't gone to the trouble of actually counting the number of times one sits next to the other, but I don't know if it is worth the trouble of doing that! :D

EDIT: Buckbeak
There are a few instances throughout the books where JKR points out who is sitting next to whom. At times, Hermione sits down next to Ron, at other times, Harry. At times, Ron sits next to Hermione, at others -- Harry. Same with Harry and both Ron and Hermione. I haven't gone to the trouble of actually counting the number of times one sits next to the other, but I don't know if it is worth the trouble of doing that! :D
:lol: Yes your probably right, i was just bringing it up for arguments sake.

BTW thanks for replying to my question Mad-I-Moody, i actually forgot i write that and after i posted it i kind of wished i hadn't because i suppose its not really a fair question, i was just probably in a bad mood at the time (don't judge). Thankfully though most people ignored it :D , anyway i'm off to bed i'm feeling like s*** and i have college tomorrow, so goodnight all.

Mad-I-Moody you are right JKR wrote that Hermione sit at time on Rons side but, now comes the big but, its change from GoF to OotP very drastic. This say in OotP Hermione si very often if not always at Harrys side and Harry sit himself, that say chose to sit on her side. And JKR do tell us this more often as in any other books. Thats strange

FP, I am not sure as to how many times JKR mentions that Harry and Hermione sit down next to each other in OotP. However, if what you say is correct and Harry and Hermione are very often or always at each other's sides, then I'm sure that can certainly mean something for the H/Hr ship. My point before, however, (which I don't think I made very clear now that I read it again) is that I don't think that who sits next to whom is really a solid argument for or against either ship. But that's my opinion. :D

It seem the love thread finally settle down. The post speed is slower now, and I can actually read every post carefully. The sitting placement may not be too important in exactly romantic way. However, it will sure point out who is comfort with who. I doubt there is enough evident anyway for the placement arguement.

I didn't count it but its that often that my lazy mind did recorgnise it. Take real life. If your best friend sits suddenly ...wait better. You see that your best male friend(A) sit all of sudden after three years platonic friendship and you even did suspect your other best friend(B) has something for your best female friend by her side. Than you start to wonder because A dos chose her side, like she do chose his side.

Another expierience thats now real life. My friend knows a guy who is together with her cousin. But this relationship don't work that great. Now my friend did suspect if he might like her. See I do know him too. Saw him once and guess what? He did sat at her side not by his girlfriend. Now we did talk about it and she asked me if I think she is right. I told her what I think and that I found it strange that first he sit at her side and second dos speak more with her as with his girlfriend. All off sudden she get he did always sit on her side.

This brings me to another point and that is Hermione speaks more to Harry as to Ron thats what we see on screen-play. She speaks more directly to Harry or if she speaks with Ron its about Harry.

Well does it specifically say that Ginny is the “only” one that laughs. Please, give me a quote. Otherwise, you can’t just assume she’s the only one that laughs or giggles. Where does JKR mention something like “It was odd. The room was silent except for a trail of laughter from a female voice. Everyone looked at Ginny as she laughed heartily at Dumbledore's broken back” Or something along those lines; otherwise, you can’t make the assumption.
In the books on several occasions there are short sentence framed something like this "Ginny giggled. " Or Fred makes a joke or somebody does something followed by the phrase "Ginny tried to stifle her giggles. As I said before, I don't currently have the books on me, but if you want to look at the general situations I pointed out in an earlier post, perhaps you will find an example. If you are still interested in seeing this, I will try to check out copies of books 1-4.

But JKR doesn’t specifically point out anything.
IMHO, if she writes something that happens consistently, she is probably sending you a message. I believe she is sending out a message by *specifically* stating Ginny's laughter in certain situations.

Why should Mrs. Weasley giggle. She was disagreeing with Bill. You cannot say that the rest of the Weasleys didn’t comment or laugh because they were all in different conversations.
Mrs Wealey was simply an example. Like I said above, JKR has sentences that are written directly describing Ginny's giggles. The point was that most of the time it is a short but sweet sentence describing Ginny alone, not Ginny and another person.

Actually, she does this only a few times; we never really see much of Ginny before OotP. So we can't assume anything about her personality.
I am posting about this topic under the opinion that Ginny's personality, as we saw it in Book 5, was not a newly accquired set of characteristics, but rather an old one that we are able to see in full porportion now that she speaks in front of Harry and has a larger role in the books. This is the Predictions and Theories Forum, and half of what we post here is assumptions of personality traits. We try to do this by using text and cononical situations. JKR has a very distinct style of writing, and I think that from the few times we see Ginny we DO learn some things about her.

And I disagree with you. I don’t think laughing at jokes should reflect one’s character; if Ginny was laughing at something not funny or queer; then this will show her character, but trivial laughter does not point out anything.
You what? You disagree? Well, I am shocked to my very core! ;)
Your point is valid, but I am not referring to one specific situation in which she laughs. I am referring to a series of similar quotes, in my eyes a "pattern" if you will, and I am, once again, posting under the assumption that this is not a coincidence.

Again, Percy is an odd-ball. She didn’t seem like Percy. I’ll agree on that, but we didn’t know who is she.
Percy was just an example to prove a contrast. In this situation I used Percy as the antithesis of Fred and George. Because we know fairly little about Ginny in 1-4, I am doing something similar to this: Gred and Forge and Percy are on opposite sides of the approach to life.You might think of it like this
Fred and George------------------------------------------------------------Percy
My statement was that from the little we know of Ginny, she is closer to the Fred and George side than the Percy side. Comparisons like these are used to get general ideas of a person's overall character. I wasn't implying we could guess her favorite color.

Sorry…I just can’t connect the dots.
I noticed. If you could, I wouldn't be writing this response. :)

What attitude? JKR never took the time to describe it. JKR could’ve said, “Ginny was turning red with anger. Steam seemed to be escaping from her scarlet ears. Her face was crumpled in anger as she yelled for Ron and Harry to stop laughing at Neville, her date for the ball.” But instead, we have, “Stop--Stop laughing.” Ginny said. What I’m trying to say is, JKR could’ve done so much more. She could’ve written it in a subtle way that could show us, even for a moment, Ginny’s character. JKR had so many opportunities to do so, yet she never did.
First of all, Attitude = Red with anger??? Hmmmm...... More on the last part later......

Um…wit? It wasn’t a come-back. Nope. Not at all. She was merely stating what they already know. But she did stop them from laughing. I’ll give her that. Still, it doesn’t give us any indicators about Ginny’s character because so many people shuts Ron and Harry up. Hermione, for one, also McGonagall, Snape, Draco…you name it.
You misunderstand me. Certainly it doesn't take a special person to shut Harry and Ron up. But in this situation, she asked them normally to shut up, and when they continued laughing, I venture that she used her brain (which in the more fortunate can be associated with "wit") to figure out the best way to shut them up. In this case, it happened to be the knowledge she possessed that both were dateless. Using information to best shut them up when the normal way didn't work. Thats all.
That does tell us something though. She could have said "Guys please please be quiet." or " Oh fine, if you're not going to stop, then I'm leaving. Jerks."

Nope, but the fact that Fred feels the need to hold her hand shows that she is indeed dependent.
I disagree completely. It is very natural for an older brother to feel that their little sister needs protection, and often the older brother fails to realize the point at which the sister has become independent and become her own person. Ron was protective of Ginny when he found out about Michael Corner, and Hermione reminded him that Ginny was a big girl, she could take care of herself. Usually the brother commits that oversight. That's not unnatural.
But also, just because someone ELSE feels that you need to be protected, doesn't mean that it is truly necessary. Look at Harry! People have often felt the need to hold his hand (figuratively) or protect him, and often he has neither needed that nor wanted it.


She refused to tell and get help because she was proud or because she was scared. You seemed to be going in two completely different directions here, but I personally agree with the latter. Then again, we don’t really know do we, because JKR never bothered telling us that.
...
I agree that Harry is proud and independent; as far as Ginny, I really don’t see it.

I'm arguing that it is possible Ginny has a lot of self-pride. That's not the same as ego byt the way, Harry has a lot of self pride as well. I am saying that people who happen to have a lot of pride tend to also have a desire for independence, even if it isn't conscious. They want to be able to help themselves, because it hurts their self image to accept help from others. Therefore, I was saying that Ginny was most likely embarrassed about the situation, and if she had the level of self-pride she had in Book 5, it probably made the situation doubly as difficult to confess. Not that I'm defending her, I said she definitly made wrong decisions. I am poiting out some possible shortcomngs of the youngest Weasley and a few things she may have in commn with Harry.

Forgive me. I didn’t see the connection and wrote it off as irrelevant; apologies.{/QUOTE]
No apologies necessary. Apparently I didn't make clear enough that I thought Book 5 was a continuation and augmentation of traits we saw in books 1-4.

[QUOTE]If you feel the need to go back and pick out the clues that supposedly described Ginny’s character, then maybe these “clues” aren’t hints at all.
Do you hear that? It's the sound of me sighing heavily.
The "clues" comment of mine was based on the observation of JKR's writing style. As I'm sure all avid readers here agree, there is a pattern in the books. Upon the first reading, we bypass some important information which is often very subtle, or we become confused because we don't understand the importance of what we are reading. Later, upon the second reading when information has been revealed to us, we can make the connections better. For example, upon reading Book 1 the first time, we are working under the assumption that Snape is the baddie. This leaves us blind to certain clues that are dropped when he is talking to Quirrel, etc. The same thing happens in Book 2 with the Basilisk's voice and Ginny's strange behavior. We are able to connect the dots later on because we have the knowledge of what is truly occuring. I'm saying that I believe it is possible for the revelation of Ginny's character to follow this pattern.

She may have read about the “Boy Who Lived”, but the significant thing is: she didn’t TREAT him like one. Unlike everyone else.
I don’t think Hermione knew Harry’s detailed personality before the Halloween, but she certainly didn’t treat Harry like he’s some kind of a hero to gush over. To others, Harry is a “Boy who Lived.” , but to Hermione, he is only a reckless, foolish rule-breaker that almost got them “killed—or worse—expelled.” ;)

Not "everyone" is stuck on Harry's fame. Most ask him if he is truly Harry Potter, react with a varied degree of awe, and then continue with their lives. When Hermione first met him, she made the connection right away that he was the boy she had read about, Harry Potter, the Boy Who Lived.

Opportunities are created by people, themselves. Perhaps, Ginny was too intimidated by ‘the boy who lived; hero who conquered the dark lord, to actually talk around him.
Opportunities ARE created by people. Here I was referring to the fact that Hermione's opportunity stemmed from the fact that Harry and Ron saved her from the troll. She had that opportunity at a bonding with him and Ron becuase of that specific situation, and being in the same year as them gave her the "opportunity" to get to know Harry a year before Ginny. Discounting their "opportunity" at King's Cross. It is one of many reasons.


Really. You might want to read over that part. It specifically states that she briskly asked Harry, “Did you kiss?”
Apperently the comma in my sentence was misleading. The sentence read "She was brisk, "diginified" when talking to Ron..." etc.I should have been clearer. She was "brisk" when talking to Harry, "dignified" when talking to Ron specifically, etc. That was the meaning, because you had said that she was dignified and I was clarifying when that occured.

To you frown when you pity someone? I would think you’d be more sympathetic rather than stern.
I was listing reactions, not stating that she frowned out of pity. Again, my use of the comma must have been misleading.

You forget, Fleur also kissed Harry; then there’s the whole argument about Hermione disliking Fleur since the beginning; I really don’t want to go into this argument again.
No, I definitely didn't forget. I also didn't forget that Hermione's reactions are TWICE given directly after Fleur kisses Ron, NOT Harry. One at the lake, one at the end. Clever one, that Jo Rowling.

Methinks she was blushing about the prospect of Viktor actually considering her like a girl. As far as her avoiding Ron’s glance: simple. She knew he would react negatively.
And methinks we disagree on the reason for him to react negatively.

However, Hermione was only business like when she asked about Cho. Hermione had no reason to be business-like. She could’ve said something more natural, like “What took you so long, Harry?” Instead JKR had her say, “Is it Cho?” in a business like tone. Notice that it was the first words out of her mouth. To me, this seems like a more blatant indicator.
This would be a valid argument but-----Oh my gosh do you hear that buzzer sounding? It's so loud! You must have stated an inaccurate fact. Oh yes, there it is, the part about saying something more natural and having "Is it Cho?" being the first words out of her mouth being a blatant indicator. Forgive me while I cite the page. Page 457, Sholastic edition.
Ron was lying on the hearthrug, trying to finish his Transfiguration homework.
"What kept you?" he asked, as Harry sank into the armchair right next to Hermione's.
Harry did not answer. He was in a state of shock. Half of him wanted to tell Ron and Hermione what had just happened, but the other half wanted to take the secret with him to the grave.
"Are you all right, Harry?" Hermione asked, peering at him over the tip of her quill.
Harry gave a halfhearted shrug. In truth, he didn't know whether he was all right or not. "What's up?" said Ron, hoisting himself up on his elbow to get a better view of Harry. "What's happened?"
Harry didn't quite know how to go about telling them, and still wasn't sure whther he wanted to. Just as he had decided not to say anything, Hermione took matters out of his hands.
"Is it Cho?" she asked in a business like way. "Did she corner you after the meeting?"
Notice than Ron and Hermione had inquired in a more "natural" way about Harry's well being four four times. After many silences and halfhearted shrugs, Hermione concluded that Cho was the source of his problem.

Correct me if I'm wrong: but wasn’t it you who brought this up in the first place? :agree:
Let's take a look
I never used Harry's denials to prove anything. I was only stating it as a rebuttal to your attack.
So remember all R/Hr shippers: if you don't want us H/Hrs to use the denials as our argument, don't bring it up in the first place. :p
I don't think that that was directed at you or a commetn you made. Several times on this forum I have seen the "Harry and Hermione don't deny that they're dating" reference, and I I may have included it where it didn't necessarily fit. My apologies.

It merely serves as a counterpoint to your perspective of Ron and Hermione getting together. Anyway, in short, Hermione shouldn’t fall in love with someone just to prove to others that she isn’t predictable.
Whoa there. I never said Hermione "should." Hermione shouldn't do anything, because she doesn't have to prove anyhting. I simply pionted out how ironic it would be if she did the less obvious thing, and fell for Ron.

Cute scene. Except Ron was terrified when Hermione broke down.
Well, Hermione tends to do that, freak out Harry and Ron by giving them bonecrushing and breath depriving hugs when sad, remorseful, or grateful. I would be terrified too though. :)

But did Hermione defend Ron? Nope. She interrupted Harry and asked him to send a letter to Sirius.
Yes, she defended Ron at the beginning, explaining how he must have felt and helping Harry understand what was going on in Ron's head, being on the sidelines all the time, etc. Then she diverted Harry's attention to the most important task at hand: telling Sirius.

I should ask you. You left out book two.
No, my comment was in reference to the following.
Oh yes, what happened to book 2? I guess Hermione’s not consistent with her genuine concern for Ron, unlike her complete devotion to Harry throughout all five books.
Where in Book two is she not consistent with this? That's the question.

They still haven’t resolved it have they.
Ron is in Book 4 and Book 5 mindful of the emotions of the House Elves, Hermione overlooks the wishes of the very people she is trying to aid. She disregards the fact that not all want to be free. Ron defends them, saying they should atleast have the CHOICE, to choose to pick up the hat or not.Hermione is correct on the ways they are mistreated, but she has certain oversights. But they are allowed to disagree on things. Even as a couple, couples can disagree. If you don't think that couples disagreeing on important hings produces a solid realtionship, then I might add that Harry also calls S.P.E.W "spew", and doesn't necessarily share Hermione's opinons on how best to treat the elves. It seems only Ron is willing to voice his opinion.
If we're talking about unresolved arguments though, what about Harry and Hermione disagreeing about how good of a teacher Hagrid is?

Oh and as for another topic, picturing Moody in a romantic relationship is interesting to say the least.
LOL.
I think I'll end with my name since I haven't done that in a while.

DumbledoreTheWise ( I know my name is stupid, but can you tell I love the guy?) maybe I should add more Dumbledore stuff to my sig, like this one:
"I cared about you too much," siad Dumbledroe simply. "I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that would be lost if my plan failed. In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools who love to act."
That brings me to another thing though......Romance for Dumbldore anyone? Or what about JK's comment that information about Hogwarts spouses is restricted? Is there a Mrs. Albus Dumbledore?????

Originally posted by BlackKnight86, the complete doughhead:
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What I like is not the issue. We speak English where I live; our words have both definitions and connotations, and to communicate properly and effectively it is necessary to either utilize the same language, or translate. What are you currently speaking in, uh, SW England?
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Originally posted by Mad-I Moody:
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No reason to be rude, now. We're all writing in English, and trying, to the best of our abilities, to "utilize" the same language or translate what we think into that language.
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Originally posted by Avada Kedavra:
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Got a problem with SW England? I live in South England and go to boarding school in Newbury which could be considered as SW England- so I don't really appreciate what you say.
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Originally posted by Buckbeak:
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Hey AK i live in the south west of England too and i was actually going to respond to that, but now because you did all i have to do is agree with you. Although i don't think BlackKnight86 really meant to insult anyone about it, except Daveydee obviously, which is not nice.
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No, guys, I don't have a problem with SW England; on the contrary, I am very much an Anglophile.

The reference was made in the context of highlighting a misunderstanding in word meaning that DaveyDee and I had. I knew that he is from England, and I was trying to allude to the idea "Hey, we speak the same language", before I made a reference to the definition. The only reason that the comment was specific to SW England because that is what DaveyDee has under his avatar; I thought that using his exact wording would create a better association. At the same time, I was thinking about a comment made by a British officer in 2 Para at Fort Ord, California (we were on joint maneuvers, years ago), who had made a joke about how Americans do not, in fact, speak English. As I recall, I had to concede his point. In any case, I was thinking about the irony of my thought, and tried to be clever.

Having said that, though, I have certainly earned all of your objections. It was a ham-handed comment that came across very rudely; in fact, after reading it several hours after writing, it does sound quite bad. I apologize profusely for offending; it was not intentional, and I will try in the future to avoid doing that.

One thing, Buckbeak, if I may. While I understand how you came to your interpretation, please do not assume that I "obviously" meant to insult DaveyDee. It was not my intention to insult him; I don't hate him; and I'm not angry with him. We're just talking past each other instead of to each other; and it's very easy to come across the wrong way (and I certainly share in the blame for it). Like I said, it's an occupational hazard in a scenario like this.

Thanks for the reality check, guys! I hope you're having a great day!

BlackKnight86

To GilyAnn
I can not say I can agree with you on your cat and Ginny theory. However, what it has to do with love thread?

Great posts, Harmonians! I'm still catching up with the thread.

Oh, I’m so glad I have such a good seat for all the action! This thread has got everything—mystery, adventure, romance and even the sonorous ring of steel upon steel as the noble and valiant BlackKnight86 (my hero :) ) and the most worthy Sir Daveydee of the Heron’s Realm clashed in verbal battle upon these very grounds!
Someone should have sold popcorn, crisps and cold drinks!
I would have bought a “BlackKnight86” t-shirt, even if he did, in the heat of battle, say a thing or two that was not quite up to his usual standards of decorum.

Now, to business.
Turambar, so nice to see you back!! This parallel between Frodo and Harry is very interesting. Intellectuals have attempted it, of course, but with the condescending and dispassionate eye of the overly educated. Because we have spent so much more time with the characters, however, I think our observations are much more significant.
Posted by Turambar:
I was watching The Two Towers on DVD before and a few of the Harry/Frodo parallels struck me really forcefully:
1) the hero has a unique and powerful connection to the enemy
2) that connection grows progressively stronger and worse for the hero as his 'journey' continues
3) the hero is marked permanently by the enemy
4) the hero gains extra powers/sight/perception through this connection

With Frodo the connection is through carrying the ring but also through his scar from the Witch King's knife at Weathertop - the "wound that will never heal" which is symbolic of all the hurts he suffers and can never find peace from.
With Harry in OOTP, there's the prophesy connection, Voldemort is able to enter his mind, his ability to read Voldemort's emotions increases, his scar prickles and his head frequently hurts.

It really made me wonder whether JKR is planning to make things so bad for Harry that death is the only release.
The light at the end of the tunnel is that, unlike for Frodo, there is the possibility of romantic love for Harry. For Frodo friendship love and loyalty, embodied by Sam, isn't ultimately enough.

I think that there are many parallels that can be drawn between Frodo and Harry, but ultimately, how we perceive these characters is intrinsic to the overarching objective of the narrative. In LOTR, Tolkien, most obviously using Christian symbolism, is showing us a pure word that has been corrupted and defiled by the festering evil of Sauron. The wizards—Radagast, Saruman, and Gandalf were sent from the blessed realm in the guises of old men to oversee the liberation of Middle Earth, but have not been given the power to destroy him. The ring is so deadly, so evil and so potent that no one mighty and powerful, who would have the knowledge of how to access its power will dare touch it.

Frodo is able to take on the task because he is untouched by evil or the corrupting effects of ambition and power. This innocence of his enables him (at least at the outset) to carry the ring farther than anyone else could have managed. In LOTR, then, Frodo could be said to be a Christ-like figure— giving up the comfort and love and peace of his beautiful home to bear the “sin of his world” to the edge of doom—Hell, if you will--bearing evil to its destruction for the salvation of his world—as Christ left his Kingdom in Heaven and bore upon Himself the sins of our world.

The leaders of free Middle Earth all know that the quest will claim Frodo’s life (one way or another). Frodo suspects, but doesn’t fully realize this until the last. His mission is not to confront the Dark Lord directly but to destroy the means for his malignant evil to proliferate and enslave all the lands in darkness. He must take a journey from the bright lands of the Shire into the deepest shadows of the Dark and toss the ring over the lip of Mount Doom where it was created thereby destroying it. And he must do it alone. Yes, I realize Sam is with him, but the ultimate burden is his alone.

It would be impossible for such a figure to marry or even have a romance. The evil of the ring creates a shadow over everything he sees and touches. The ring even deludes him into suspecting poor, loyal Sam. The only possible outcome for Frodo was death—and he did die to himself—to the carefree soul he was before the ring. Notice his detachment when he tries to return to the Shire. Frodo Baggins doesn’t truly exist anymore. His departure at the Grey Havens for the Blessed Realm is a type of journey into heaven.

I perceive the Harry Potter series, despite the outward similarities, has a much different focus. Harry, first of all, in spite of the many parallels with Frodo, is a very different kind of hero. Both must contend against a Dark Lord, but while Frodo’s greatest asset could be said to be his lack of power and importance--his ability to move almost ‘under the Dark Lord’s nose,’ so to speak. Harry can enjoy no such anonymity. He has been specifically targeted for destruction and is the avowed enemy of Voldemort.

While Frodo has no power to speak of save his goodness and will to succeed, Harry is told he has a power that is “at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature.” Harry has within himself the power to destroy the Dark Lord. It is this power that Harry must access in order to save his world.

I believe that in Book Six, Harry will begin his own quest—one of self discovery--to unlock the secret of the power he possesses. And I don’t think the ultimate climax of the Harry Potter books will be the Gotterdammerung-like climax of LOTR, where all the forces of Hell are swallowed up in a massive conflagration of destruction. I think the climax will be a similar all-encompassing blast of creation and reconciliation. JKR has almost taken Harry’s personal angst as far as she can without it becoming melodramatic. As Frodo had to embrace death--to reconcile himself to it in order to complete his mission, I believe that Harry must embrace life and light and love.

Harry has already accepted the real possibility of his own death, he has already embraced death. We saw his resignation to death in PS/SS, CoS, GoF and OoP. Dying for Harry would be the easy way out, the coward’s way, because he doesn’t have to make any effort to die. Voldemort would gladly finish him off if he didn’t resist. The difficult thing for Harry will be to turn his mind from war and battles to understand the most powerful defense against the dark arts is already in his possession—that his victory will not be so much in the spells he can cast, but the fullness of his own heart.

Cheers!
Nia

About fan-girls. I think its important in a matter of Harry.
Because I don't think Harry can or rather shouldn't be together because such a girl even Ginny did change her thinking but its Harry who has a problem and that is everybody see Harry Potter and his scar and I promise you this will become an issue in book6 because this scar is the reason why. And Ginny was one off this people who did look at him like that what Hermione didn't was not even at the beginning.

Oh Please! :rolleyes: Hermione didn't even know Harry and she claimed she knew all about him and follow him thru schooll. :scared: This is a really big double standard that the H/Hr side is holding. This issue for me has been settled a long time ago neither Ginny or Hermione were a fan girl. The statement is simply ridiculous. Fan girls were the girls in GoF who asked Harry out and trully didn't know him.

What we do see from Ginny herself is very interesting- there's heaps of Quidditch symbolism, Ginny becoming suddenly more "developed" in terms of her character, having proper, extended dialougue with Harry that was non-existent in previous books, and Ginny reallyconnecting with Harry on more levels. Don't forget, JKR has left a nice little window for H/G in Book 6- the Quidditch team- Ginny says it herself- "I think I'll try for chaser next year". Whilst this may seem insignificant, it could have some importance in the year to come.

Not to mention the other sinister connection of Voldemort. Appart from Harry. Ginny is the only other person that has ever survive him with Harry's help off course. Specially when Voldemort claimed that snake and people he possessed die shortly later.

Did Ginny really ever try to persue a romantic anything with Harry?

And yet she is still classified by fan girl!

Edit: I do think that Ginny is important to the plot in a minor way. I say minor b/c I believe Ginny to be a minor character who is also a round character. I think the hints at clairvoyance, cat transfiguration, Quidditch playing, and DA clubbing are definately important to the plot but not to a better/deeper friendship/ romantic relationship with Harry.

May I ask how are we going to know all about this if she is not near Harry?


My question is if JKR is going to write R/Hr as a subplot, will she start using a different POV. Because I would like to know what's going down between them.

JKR won't change point of view. I'm convinced that we won't know when R/Hr happens. I don't think Harry wants to hear or see it, that and I'm convinced we won't know when they become a couple.

Ok i suppose we ought to let Ron and Hermione have some alone time together, they are friends after all, but get this...

Right now i'm currently re-reading COS and i found this

-'When Harry had taken his place between Ron and Hermione... '

This is half way through the Gilderoy Lockhart chapter when they have their Herbology lesson.
Its odd don't you think that Ron and Hermione don't sit next to each other when they walk into class, i mean Harry could have sat either side of them but no they leave a space for Harry, why, do you suppose?

Please excuse me if I'm being rude to all the R/Hr shippers and H/Hr shippers but this is ridiculuos! What diference does it make who sits were and who was beside who! That's nitpicking! Have we sank so low that we are reduced to these silly details. With that I can ship H/Tonks since she was with him in his room! Oh and get this Ginny almost sat or sat in top of Harry in PoA! Soooo! Should I include that as a reason to ship H/G. I got to admit I laugh my head off at that but I don't think it's reason enough to ship them! Don't we have some kind of real evidence to discuss! Please!!!! Other shippping perhaps!

I can not say I can agree with you on your cat and Ginny theory. However, what it has to do with love thread?

Very little not point to bring it up here. This is the love thread.

I am posting about this topic under the opinion that Ginny's personality, as we saw it in Book 5, was not a newly accquired set of characteristics, but rather an old one that we are able to see in full porportion now that she speaks in front of Harry and has a larger role in the books. This is the Predictions and Theories Forum, and half of what we post here is assumptions of personality traits. We try to do this by using text and cononical situations. JKR has a very distinct style of writing, and I think that from the few times we see Ginny we DO learn some things about her.Well, said, I agree with you about how Ginny acts in OotP in that it doesn't appear to be a major change in her demenor just more of a bringing it tp focus.Percy was just an example to prove a contrast. In this situation I used Percy as the antithesis of Fred and George. Because we know fairly little about Ginny in 1-4, I am doing something similar to this: Gred and Forge and Percy are on opposite sides of the approach to life.You might think of it like this
Fred and George------------------------------------------------------------Percy
My statement was that from the little we know of Ginny, she is closer to the Fred and George side than the Percy side. Comparisons like these are used to get general ideas of a person's overall character. I wasn't implying we could guess her favorite color.
Again well said, basically:
Fred/George..........Ginny....................Percy
For those keeping score that is 10 periods between Fred/George and Ginny and 20 periods between Ginny and Percy (my opinion of how her demenor compares to those three siblings). I also must make a confession right now......I love the word "antithesis," so DumbledoreTheWise you get bonus points for using it.First of all, Attitude = Red with anger???I agree again because attitude is more your demenor or your Karma (I think, someone can correct me if I am wrong) in that you can have a good one or a bad one and it doesn't necessarily mean that if you have a bad one that you are always angry.You misunderstand me. Certainly it doesn't take a special person to shut Harry and Ron up. But in this situation, she asked them normally to shut up, and when they continued laughing, I venture that she used her brain (which in the more fortunate can be associated with "wit") to figure out the best way to shut them up. In this case, it happened to be the knowledge she possessed that both were dateless. Using information to best shut them up when the normal way didn't work. Thats all.
That does tell us something though. She could have said "Guys please please be quiet." or " Oh fine, if you're not going to stop, then I'm leaving. Jerks." This is unusual for me but I am going to have to agree again, as I have stated before in this very thread, I think that it is impressive how quickly Ginny quites them down (though many would argue that it took her 2 1/2 to 3 tries that still isn't that many considering the mood that the were in, basically they were kinda giddy and they were shut up with a quickness). I would continue but I just can't possibly continue agreeing with someone so much, it isn't good for my angry side :) .


Oh, I’m so glad I have such a good seat for all the action! This thread has got everything—mystery, adventure, romance and even the sonorous ring of steel upon steel as the noble and valiant BlackKnight86 (my hero ) and the most worthy Sir Daveydee of the Heron’s Realm clashed in verbal battle upon these very grounds!
Someone should have sold popcorn, crisps and cold drinks!
I would have bought a “BlackKnight86” t-shirt, even if he did, in the heat of battle, say a thing or two that was not quite up to his usual standards of decorum. :) Well said, I too enjoyed/am enjoying it.

Thanks FP, DD, Mad-I, RR, BB, Sirius and Nia for comments/responses/posts. I am planning to respond to a few things but it will take a while. Oh the joys of rebuttle...lurk-mode is far more relaxing. And Mad-I my favourite part of the ROTK trailer was the bit where Pippin asks if there's any hope for Frodo and Sam and Gandalf replies, 'only a fool's hope'.

POA: Ron and Hermione working together on Buckbeak's defence

Which interestingly enough, we were not privy to see or hear about. However, as far as Buckbeak goes, JKR chose to write it so Harry and Hermione flew together on Buckbeak, a Greek symbol of love later on. Ron and Hermione working on Buckbeak's defense can't be a missed H/Hr moment, because JKR didn't go into it to demonstrate any R/Hr in there.

Actually, if you think about it, Harry and Hermione were the only two people who possibly could go. They didn't nessecarily choose to do so. Harry had to go because he is the main character. Hermione had to go because she had the Time Turner. Ron couldn't have been written as the one with the Time Turner because he'd never be convinced to take more classes than he had to. Also, I think that the scene where Ron and Hermione make up is rather significant. After such a long time of being mad at each other, they finally come together and talk. If you notice, it's a completely different scene when Harry and Ron, who are simply friends, make up in GoF.

GOF: Ron and Hermione together at the Burrow over summer

Interestingly enough, this played a role later on because Molly didn't think it absurd what Rita wrote. She had these kids in her house, under her nose and whatever she saw between them was enough to make her believe that they were in love. This by itself may not be an H/Hr moment, but it came into play later on regarding H/Hr.

But Rita wrote that Harry was in love with Hermione while Hermione was simply flaunting charms. If Molly had truly observed the trio while they were staying with her, she surely should have noticed that Hermione is absolutely not the kind of person who would do such a thing. Secondly, JKR didn't write a specific scene at the Burrow where they said anything to hint that. If she meant for Rita's article to mean that Hermione and Harry were in love, she surely would have planted at least one clue in the beginning. That's what she usually does. She plants a clue that seems unimportant until you start dissecting it on a second or third read.

OotP: Ron and Hermione made prefects together

No, this is not a missed moment. JKR wrote a beautiful scene which shows how much Hermione expected Harry to be a prefect with her and just how disappointed she was because she wouldn't be getting to share the experience with Harry. She had no such reaction to Ron, only embarrassment after putting her foot in her mouth thinking it was Harry, and then adding insult to injury by asking if they were sure Harry wasn't the prefect. This isn't a missed H/Hr moment, this IS an H/Hr moment.

Truthfully, did you really expect Ron to be made the prefect in their fifth year? Harry seemed like the obvious choice. He broke rules only when he had to, he wasn't overly shy or introverted, Dumbledore trusted him, McGonagall liked him; he had a lot going for him. The fact that Hermione thought Harry was the natural chocie isn't very relevant to whether she had feelings for him or not.

OotP: Ron and Hermione together in the hospital wing

Sorry, this is a romantic scene how? The only romantic clue dropped in here is that Luna turned up when she wasn't really needed in the scene at all, which fits in with her crush on Ron demonstrated since meeting on the train. This isn't a romantic scene between the trio, far less a missed H/Hr moment. However, given that Ron and Hermione spent so much time together and didn't change a whole lot toward each other, I'd say that's a massive missed R/Hr development sequence.

How was Luna not needed in the scene? She did go to the Department of Mysteries with the others, she helped them, she go hurt along with them. What I noticed was her conspicuous absence in the train at the end of the book. Besides, at this point, Harry isn't very reponsive to the conversation, and Hermione doesn't seem very in tune to his feelings afterwards, either. I don't think this scene supports either a R/Hr or a H/Hr relationship.

OotP: Ron and Hermione together at Grimmauld Place over summer

No, this is an H/Hr sequence. We found out that Hermione was going spare about Harry, that Ron didn't seem all that comfortable with the overly prolonged hug Hermione gave Harry upon arrival. This is very much an H/Hr scene, because as we found out, after spending all that time together, they were not a couple, there were no hints of them getting closer, nobody asked Harry if something was going on with them. More than anything else, this was another massive missed R/Hr development sequence while sticking in a little hinting of H/Hr.

If Ron didn't feel very comfortable about Hermione's hug, doesn't that sort of indicate that he's possibly jealous? Also, if your best friend, regardless of gender, was in grave danger over the summer, you hadn't seen him/her in a month, and you knew they were in the worst situation of anybody you knew, wouldn't you want to hug them, too? I don't know if it's just a girl's reaction, but that's what girls do.

OotP: Ron and Hermione partnering in DA

No, this is an H/Hr scene. Although partnering Ron, Hermione seemed to be keeping an eye on Harry, enough that the minute he and Cho started getting too friendly, she called over to remind him of the time. If nothing else, Hermione's failure to encourage Ron rather than point out how he didn't actually beat her was a missed R/Hr moment, not a missed H/Hr moment.

Or perhaps, Hermione simply realized that they had been practicing for a while and wanted to know the time. If you noticed, in later parts of the book, Hermione seemed very comfortable with the idea of a Harry/Cho relationship.

OotP: Ron and Hermione each without a Valentine date

I love this part. You see, this is not a missed H/Hr moment. The H/Hr moment was there because Hermione had asked Harry to meet her in the Three Broomsticks on Valentine's Day. This is a lovely piece of imagery and a nice H/Hr moment. However, this is a very, very nicely missed R/Hr moment, because if JKR wanted to show something, she could have had Ron be present and talking to Hermione when Harry turned up at the Three Broomsticks or had Hermione take Ron back some sweets just like she did for Harry in POA. This is a definate H/Hr moment and a missed R/Hr moment, not the other way around.


Actually, Hermione got an owl that morning which was probably telling her about the Quibbler article, prompting her to do the interview that day. Also, if she was meeting Rita to discuss it, how would she be buying sweets at the same time? Also, JKR isn't that obvious with her clues, so she wuoldn't be buying sweets anyway. It could also just be interpreted as a Hermione Hates Umbridge moment, too.

Anyway, those are my thoughts... Feel free to pick them apart. =D

Mad-I , DaveyDee, Fortescue and others, I am loving reading the posts right now, excellent quality and props to all. Thanks for agreeing with me Mad-I, good to know occasionally I get it right. :)
Actually, if you think about it, Harry and Hermione were the only two people who possibly could go. They didn't nessecarily choose to do so. Harry had to go because he is the main character. Hermione had to go because she had the Time Turner. Ron couldn't have been written as the one with the Time Turner because he'd never be convinced to take more classes than he had to.
Exactly. Not to mention the fact that Ron was out cold.
Also, I think that the scene where Ron and Hermione make up is rather significant. After such a long time of being mad at each other, they finally come together and talk. If you notice, it's a completely different scene when Harry and Ron, who are simply friends, make up in GoF.
Excellent job pointing that out, I had never considered that parallel. The emotion involved in the Ron/Hermione make-up, as compared to the platonic realtionship between Harry and Ron. I don't think the Firebolt fight make-up in Book 3 made Hermione grab Harry around the neck while crying.

Originally Posted by Fortescue
Actually, if you think about it, Harry and Hermione were the only two people who possibly could go. They didn't nessecarily choose to do so. Harry had to go because he is the main character. Hermione had to go because she had the Time Turner. Ron couldn't have been written as the one with the Time Turner because he'd never be convinced to take more classes than he had to.
I kind of agree with the statement. Yes, Ron is out cold and it fits better to Hermione with timeturner. However, do Ron has to be out cold? It is the author intention that Ron is out cold and removed from the scene. Although I must say it is very possible that it is done so that Hermione can take some spotlight. Hermione is the one outcold in COS, so it is very natural that to have Ron outcold in POA. However, it is very possible that JKR want to use Buckbreak to creat a romantic image of H/Hr. what is the real reason of Ron out of the grame, I do not know. But the fact is JKR chose to remove Ron from the following scene.

All the scene are written. It is careful choose by JKR(or careless choose sometime)Anything could be mean something or nothing. We do not know why JKR write it the way it is.

Actually, if you think about it, Harry and Hermione were the only two people who possibly could go. They didn't nessecarily choose to do so. Harry had to go because he is the main character. Hermione had to go because she had the Time Turner. Ron couldn't have been written as the one with the Time Turner because he'd never be convinced to take more classes than he had to. Also, I think that the scene where Ron and Hermione make up is rather significant. After such a long time of being mad at each other, they finally come together and talk. If you notice, it's a completely different scene when Harry and Ron, who are simply friends, make up in GoF.

Interestingly enough, Hermione didn't really have to go. She could have just given the Time Turner to Harry to go back. With her gone back though, she still didn't need to ride the Hippogriff, and JKR never had to use the Hippogriff in the first place. She also didn't need to knock Ron out, he could have shared in the adventure. Instead JKR wrote a beautiful Harry and Hermione adventure. It also doesn't change it being an H/Hr scene, because JKR wrote it the way she did. The scene where Ron and Hermione made up may or may not be significant, but the problem is that Ron didn't apologise. This may come back to haunt him, but that's for another thread. Now as for Harry and Hermione making up, let's not forget two things. The first is our beloved theory of interruptions which plays itself out during the making up. The second is that Harry and Hermione had not been fighting, only not on the best of terms with each other.

But Rita wrote that Harry was in love with Hermione while Hermione was simply flaunting charms. If Molly had truly observed the trio while they were staying with her, she surely should have noticed that Hermione is absolutely not the kind of person who would do such a thing. Secondly, JKR didn't write a specific scene at the Burrow where they said anything to hint that. If she meant for Rita's article to mean that Hermione and Harry were in love, she surely would have planted at least one clue in the beginning. That's what she usually does. She plants a clue that seems unimportant until you start dissecting it on a second or third read.

Actually, there were two articles, not just the one where Hermione was supposedly playing with the boys hearts. However, for Molly to believe this after seeing the kids interacting at her own home and believe the article, she must have thought something was happening between them or she would have thought the article rubbish. That's your clue right there - Molly believed the article after seeing them interact for herself.

Truthfully, did you really expect Ron to be made the prefect in their fifth year? Harry seemed like the obvious choice. He broke rules only when he had to, he wasn't overly shy or introverted, Dumbledore trusted him, McGonagall liked him; he had a lot going for him. The fact that Hermione thought Harry was the natural chocie isn't very relevant to whether she had feelings for him or not.

However, JKR still chose to write the scene in the way that she did. She didn't need to have Hermione so excited about being a prefect with Harry and then have no mention of her excitement or even her being happy for Ron upon finding out Ron was the prefect. This is what makes the scene a H/Hr moment - not that Hermione expected Harry to be a prefect, but that she was so excited to be a prefect with Harry and not Ron.

How was Luna not needed in the scene? She did go to the Department of Mysteries with the others, she helped them, she go hurt along with them. What I noticed was her conspicuous absence in the train at the end of the book. Besides, at this point, Harry isn't very reponsive to the conversation, and Hermione doesn't seem very in tune to his feelings afterwards, either. I don't think this scene supports either a R/Hr or a H/Hr relationship.

The real question here is that if this scene was supposed to be romantic at all, why was the sextet there? I'm not the one who tried to make this scene have any sort of meaning as far as relationships go though, that would be your shipmate. My take is that it means nothing as far as relationships go, but at the very best this is a missed R/Hr because they were both in the hospital wing together and theres no mention of anything about R/Hr.

If Ron didn't feel very comfortable about Hermione's hug, doesn't that sort of indicate that he's possibly jealous? Also, if your best friend, regardless of gender, was in grave danger over the summer, you hadn't seen him/her in a month, and you knew they were in the worst situation of anybody you knew, wouldn't you want to hug them, too? I don't know if it's just a girl's reaction, but that's what girls do.

Yes, but we've long said Ron may have a problem with H/Hr. Anyway, the point wasn't that she hugged Harry, it was that the hug lasted for an absurdly long time, if you read it out the dialogue spoken before the hug ended you'll see how long it is. I still don't understand what your point is though. I made the original post in response to Daveydee who said these were missed H/Hr moments. I showed how they were not missed H/Hr moments, but I was not trying to show how parts of the book are H/Hr, so I'm not sure where you're going with this rebuttle at all.

Or perhaps, Hermione simply realized that they had been practicing for a while and wanted to know the time. If you noticed, in later parts of the book, Hermione seemed very comfortable with the idea of a Harry/Cho relationship.

That's possible, but very odd timing for JKR to have Hermione speak up. Also odd wording. "Hey, Harry, have you checked the time?" - calling across the room just as Harry was sharing a moment with Cho. Also, hermione was not shown as being comfortable with Harry/Cho, as we have shown repeatedly in our posts. She frowned, got brisk, businesslike, distant, vague over the kiss. She got firm and quickly left when Harry and Cho spoke after Christmas. She spoke in a bright voice while asking about Harry's very obviously botched Cho date. No, I can't say Hermione was comfortable with Harry/Cho at all.

Actually, Hermione got an owl that morning which was probably telling her about the Quibbler article, prompting her to do the interview that day. Also, if she was meeting Rita to discuss it, how would she be buying sweets at the same time? Also, JKR isn't that obvious with her clues, so she wuoldn't be buying sweets anyway. It could also just be interpreted as a Hermione Hates Umbridge moment, too.

JKR didn't need to have the owl get there that morning. She didn't need to have Hermione ask Harry to meet her on Valentine's Day, there's always the D.A. room and Rita being a beetle animagus. She can buy sweets before or after discussing things with Rita. It wouldn't be an obvious clue to have Hermione buy sweets because she bought for Harry in POA, not to mention JKR has never been secretive on the R/Hr front. I am also totally and utterly lost on how this can be a Hermione hates Umbridge moment.

Anyway, those are my thoughts... Feel free to pick them apart. =D

Well, it's been picked apart =D. But I still don't understand where you were going with this rebuttle. It seemed at many times completely unrelated to the post I made which was to show DaveyDee how the points he made were not missed H/Hr moments at all.

Also, if your best friend, regardless of gender, was in grave danger over the summer, you hadn't seen him/her in a month, and you knew they were in the worst situation of anybody you knew, wouldn't you want to hug them, too? I don't know if it's just a girl's reaction, but that's what girls do.


They did not think he was in grave danger considering they trusted Dumbledore in thinking he was safest with the muggles, not to mention he had 24/7 watch over from the Order of the Phoenix. They found out that he got attacked by Dementors but was quite alright. They known that for days before Harry went to 12G.

Reply to Rowena Ravenclaw:

RR: Moving on to the crucial issue of the post--Harry and Hermione's "shared" promise--while Hermione never verbally agrees to anything, she also never explicitly tells Hagrid anything to indicate she is uncomfortable with the arrangement. The constraint she feels thus comes not from Harry, but her own tacit consent--one which, as her clear distress immediately following the incident, as well as the "small voice" she tells Ron she promised with in indicates, is not nearly as strong as Harry's firmly held word of honor.


Me: Let's look at the big picture.
Harry assumes - without much thought or any consultation - that:
a) Hermione will go with him to help Hagrid despite the fact that Ron's big game is on,
b) she will want to help him help Hagrid unconditionally and
c) that she will stick to the promise (she hasn't actually verbally made) and try to help, however unwilling she may be.
Why does he assume this? Afterall Ron's first reaction is to say 'no this is silly, the promise should be broken'. So if he had assumed the same of Ron as he did with Hermione he would have been wrong.
He assumes because her expected and then actual behaviour is based on his knowledge of her previous behaviour. For instance:
a) They have been on other adventures alone before
b) There is a well-established pattern in the series of Hermione leaving Ron behind to support Harry and focusing on Harry's needs above Ron's needs.
c) He is well aware of her extreme loyalty to him and her caring for others including Hagrid.

Now assume for a moment that JKR had written the books differently, emphasising a deepening friendship between R/Hr. For instance if she had written when Ron got knocked out in PS that Hermione ran over to Ron's side and said to Harry 'I'll go and get help for Ron', or that it was Ron who pulled Millicent off Hermione in COS, or that Hermione ran towards both boys yelling 'Harry, Ron, I knew you'd work it out' in COS, or that it was Ron's arm she grabbed for support when the Fat Lady was slashed in POA, or that Hermione rushed over to Ron looking shaken and upset and tried to comfort him when he broke his leg in POA or that Hermione ran to get help when Ron was knocked out in POA or that Hermione chose to spend more time with Ron than Harry when they were fighting in GOF or that Hermione chose to go to Hogsmeade with Ron or at least went over to say hello when she saw him there in GOF.

Now if all that - and many other incidents - had been written with an R/Hr slant would Harry have just assumed that Hermione would for a start automatically go with himself and Hagrid? Afterall didn't Ron, their best friend, deserve support? If Harry had known, based on previous behaviour, that Hermione would have wanted more than anything to watch Ron compete he could have said "I'll see what he wants, you stay here and support Ron.' Remember this is the girl who made a point of watching Harry's quidditch match in POA when she wasn't talking to the boys and was then afronted when he asked if she had seen it. As if she'd miss an ordinary match of Harry's, yet here's a quidditch final? Doesn't Ron actually need as much support as he can get?.

Hermione is upset at Hagrid and makes no secret of the fact but she never considers breaking the promise, she never says 'why on earth did you promise that'. She never says 'well Harry was the one who promised, I didn't want to'. It's more impressive that after knowing exactly what's involved and expressing her misgivings she binds herself into the promise she didn't make - twice.

xxxxxxx
RR: As for the always looming question of why Rowling chose to have Harry and Hermione go alone, there is at least one non-shipping answer. Ron, as we saw from his reaction at the Yule Ball when he found out Hagrid was part-giant, and as we can extrapolate from his attitudes toward other magical races such as house elves, already has certain conceptions of what giants are like. Harry and Hermione, because of their Muggle upbringing, do not, as evidenced by their non-reaction to Hagrid's background. By having them be the ones to encounter Grawp, Rowling is forcing them--particularly Hermione, who has spent so much time trying to grant another species human dignity--to examine whether their tolerance is genuine or mere lip service.


Me: The fact remains that JKR continues to write Harry and Hermione having adventures on their own without Ron. This one can't be looked at in isolation. They enhance the plot but as Sirius said H/Hr are crucial to the plot. She uses these adventures to develop and deepen the H/Hr relationship: to show mutual dependence, mutual respect, Harry's protective instincts towards Hermione, their mental rapport, their physical comfortability with each other, their team-work, the way they solve problems and make decisions together.

The very interesting thing about the DOM battle in OOTP is it marks the first time that JKR puts H/Hr back into a wider group in a tense, crisis situation after the experiences they have had together in the time-turner adventure in POA, before the first task in GOF and the two forest adventures in OOTP. The result is they are the leaders of that group and they look out for each other and they also show the physical pattern they have in a crisis that we've discussed before. Isn't that a consequence of the shared experiences they've had and the closeness they've developed? Why doesn't Ron show more leadership and initiative in the DOM battle? Why doesn't he instinctively try to look out for Hermione? Why doesn't JKR write it that way?

On your view of giants: surely it was obvious from the chapter where Hagrid recounts his trip that pure-blooded giants are scary, violent and murderous? And as Muggles wouldn't both Harry and Hermione have been aware of the frightening possibilities of giants, that it would be rather like coming up against King Kong? And wasn't Hermione's concern more with stigmatised half-breeds (Rita's article, Umbridge's attitudes) and lowly enslaved house elves rather than the pure-blood giants?

xxxxxx
RR: An analysis of where and when Rowling uses glances to communicate characters' thoughts might be interesting for someone who has more time than I do, but suffice it to say this method of communication hardly seems limited to Harry and Hermione, or even potential romantic pairs. And Rowling's chapter ending not only foreshadows Grawp's reappearance later in the novel, but emphasizes Harry and Hermione's affection for Ron: both agree to set aside the distressing and clearly far more important issue of Grawp for the sake of his well-deserved victory celebration. (It's also well worth noting that news of that victory seems to restore Hermione's composure more effectively than any of Harry's reassurances.)


Me: JKR uses techniques such as showing H/Hr communicating by glances, speaking and performing actions (such as lighting the wands) at the same time to show closeness and mental rapport. She particularly highlights this pattern when they have adventures together such as with the time-turner and OOTP forest scenes.

I've previously studied this pattern and it only really kicked into gear with the Shrieking Shack and time-turner adventure in POA. GOF had many examples of the H/Hr rapport and OOTP continues that trend. She also shows this rapport between them when others are around e.g. when only Hermione realises Harry's scar is hurting at 12 Grimmauld Pl, when only they realise Malfoy is hinting about Sirius on the train and when only Harry is aware of what Hermione is up to when faking tears in Umbridge's office. There's also some nice little touches in the Grawp sequence such as the Norbert joke and when Harry is clued up to Hermione's motives when she says it's too dangerous to go back to the forest.

The incident of Hermione asking for both of them if they can light their wands has a practical purpose as you said but like Harry's protective behaviour around Hermione, it shows their instinctiveness with each other. And I don't see why JKR couldn't have written 'do you mind if I light my wand'. It's just a little incident but in combination with others paints a portrait of couple-like closeness and co-operation.

I agree that H/Hr show affection for Ron at the end, but from the POV of two people together, separated by distance, emotion and experience from the third party. And naturally an unexpected victory involving their friend is going to take BOTH their minds off their problem.

Okay coming out of my lurking for a moment. Shocking I know. I just had to respond to Davydee's moments between Ron and Hermione. Here goes:

RON AND HERMIONE WAITING OUTSIDE FLOREAN FORTESCUE

First off it certainly says something that simple acts of friendship between Ron and Hermione are made into bigger things. Says alot about the two. Now being that I'm someone who's always admitted that the two are friends; I see nothing amazing in this. I will say this however; it is interesting that once Harry comes over; the first thing they say is how they'd spent the entire day looking for him. As far as I understood the text; both Ron and Hermione heard about Harry blowing up his aunt and that he was now staying at the Leaky Cauldron; they both came to join him; arrived the same day and spent most of the morning looking for him. Always seems to revolve around Harry doesn't it?


RON AND HERMIONE WORKING ON BUCKBEAK'S DEFENSE

This a mistake alot of R/Hr shippers make. Ron and Hermione didn't work on Buckbeak's defense together; Hermione worked on the defense alone while both boys weren't speaking to her. After Hagrid lost the trial; Ron took over the appeal because Harry was too busy with Quidditch and Hermione with her many classes. It's specifically stated in the text by Harry. Someone quote it for me, I don't have my books.


RON AND HERMIONE TOGETHER AT THE BURROW OVER SUMMER

Hermione arrived ONE day before Harry. That's all. The two weren't drifting away the days together. Now considering that later in that same book, Ron seemed to come to the shocking conclusion that Hermione was a girl; it's safe to say that nothing remotely romantic happened in that ONE day.


RON AND HERMIONE MADE PREFECTS TOGETHER

Yes they were and it would have certainly helped to separate Harry from the two and establish him on his own without them. However with the exception of the train scene in the early beginning; Hermione spends just as much time with Harry as always and RON interestingly is the one conspicuously absent; what with Quidditch and such. When he was present; he barely said much. Interesting. I would assume if the whole prefect ploy was to get them closer that Hermione would be a little more absent in Harry's life but maybe she has alot more time than one can imagine. Who knows.



RON AND HERMIONE IN THE HOSPITAL WING

Yes and seeing as they were the two injured, that makes sense. However I could see how a little romance would spark during those late, quiet, hospital nights when Hermione was doped up with her 10 pills a day she was taking. However, anything's possible when dealing with teenagers. Neither seemed any different later on the train ride home; but I'm sure it's part of that secret relationship they have going on.


RON AND HERMIONE TOGETHER AT GRIMMAULD PLACE OVER SUMMER

Ah yes. The summer at Grimmauld Place that has MANY R/Hr shippers convinced of a secret relationship between the two. Few things to take in consideration. There is not the slightest shift or change in Ron and Hermione's relationship. That is simply not realistic. If this secret relationship were the case; you'd be dealing with two 15 yr. olds having their first real relationship, with someone they'd always considered a best friend AND trying to keep it from their other best friend. There would be at least a little jumpiness or nervous glances. There was NONE. When Harry comes up after kissing Cho; there isn't the slightest hint or suggestion of anything even remotely romantic going on between Hermione and Ron. Finally IF Ron was with Hermione; he WOULD NOT ask Harry what she saw in Krum; because he'd know they were just friends. He doesn't and neither do we. Sorry don't buy it. If anything I saw this as a lost R/Hr moment; because if you're telling me two 15 yr.old who have some "romantic tension" between them can spend four weeks together and NOTHING happens; then obviously there isn't as much tension as persons think or my personal reason; that being one isn't interested. That would of course be Hermione.


RON AND HERMIONE PARTNERING IN DA

Yes because neither could partner with Harry; as he was teaching the class. We should keep in mind that there were times when the three were very much working together until Harry had to help Neville or walk around giving advice. What kind of teacher stands in one place? Besides this goes back to COS. When Snape splits apart Ron and Harry in the Duelling Club; Harry immediately turned to Hermione. These three kids are practically attached to each other. If one isn't available, they go to the other. It's as simple as that. I really have never understood the significance of this argument.



RON AND HERMIONE EACH WITHOUT A VALENTINE

Indeed they both were. However it wasn't so much that Ron didn't have a valentine as much as he wasn't even PRESENT on Valentine's day. Ron is seen in the morning, when he stays in the school to practice and that's it. Again I see this as a missed R/Hr moment. Why couldn't Hermione and Ron been waiting at the Three Broomsticks for Harry (I doubt Hermione would mind Ron knowing her Rita plan and seeing as they both without a valentine and they are friends after all) after his date with Cho. See what we would have had is that on the most romantic day of the year; Harry would have been with Cho and Hermione and Ron would have been together. Instead what we had was Harry's date been blown to **** and his ending the day with Hermione who was at the time solving one of his problems. Again it always seems to be about him, doesn't it?


Now that I've commented on this. Let me run down a few things I saw as missed R/Hr moments:

PS/SS-Not making Hermione stay behind with Ron after he falls or at least alter her reaction to show just a little more concern.

COS-Hermione being described as running towards HARRY screaming you did it. Why wasn't she described as running towards BOTH boys?

COS-Hermione NOT visiting the Burrow that summer. Now this has always interested me. Why didn't Hermione visit Ron that summer? She wasn't abroad and he's her friend too. I mean it's not like she'd be alone with him and that'd be weird or something. His entire family was there. Would have definitely emphasised Ron and Hermione being able to function without Harry; plus they were worried about him not writing. It'd be a good way to put their heads together to figure out what was wrong?

POA-Hermione's lack of reaction to Ron after Sirius attacks him. Hermione's lack of reaction after Wormtail attacks Ron and escapes. Despite that the unneccessary need to describe Hermione's reaction to Harry's fall in such detail. It's not like we need to be reminded Hermione cares for Harry.

GOF-Having Fleur kiss BOTH Ron and Harry; THEN describing Hermione's reaction. Sneaky, very sneaky by JK. Plus making sure we see Hermione's cold response to Fleur even before Ron notices her. Why not make Hermione make that comment towards Fleur AFTER Ron notices her.

OOTP-Unneccesarily prolonging that Prefect scene with Ron, Hermione and Harry. Persons can believe whatever they want to believe about Hermione not really being disappointed, etc. but the fact is if Hermione could have asked for Hedwig immediately after she realized Ron was made prefect or before he went to talk to his mom. In case persons didn't realize there was a good amount of time passed in that scene. All the time Mrs. Weasley was gushing over Ron she could have asked. Before Ron went downstairs and the twins had left;she could have asked. This maybe speculation but it seemed very logical to me that Hermione wanted to talk to Harry but considering he could barely meet her eyes; was talking in a falsely loud tone (she's not dumb she figured he was embarrassed for some reason) she just decided to leave him alone and ask for Hedwig.

OOTP-Hermione falling asleep at Ron's celebration, jumping up at the chance to leave once Harry was leaving and then asking Harry to help her make elf hats. I mean really. ELF HATS? HARRY of all people; and then looking slightly disappointed. I mean this couldn't be just to spend time with her friend; Hermione spends TONS of time with Harry.


OOTP-Hermione describing Ron's present as unusual. Interesting choice of words when promoting a couple. Plus making sure that the comment comes in the same sentence where she gushes over Harry's gift. Interesting.

Good stuff Lleyki, Sirius.

:clap: to Turambar and lleyki.

The fact remains that JKR continues to write Harry and Hermione having adventures on their own without Ron. This one can't be looked at in isolation. They enhance the plot but as Sirius said H/Hr are crucial to the plot. She uses these adventures to develop and deepen the H/Hr relationship: to show mutual dependence, mutual respect, Harry's protective instincts towards Hermione, their mental rapport, their physical comfortability with each other, their team-work, the way they solve problems and make decisions together.

Now to add a little to Turambar's point (hope you don't mind)

Why is H/Hr important to the plot,

Harry’s feelings for Hermione

Chapter One: The Beginning

Here’s a little theory about when Harry begins to realize that Hermione is more than a friend to him

OotP Ch 32 Out of The Fire Pg 737 US Version

Even through his anger and impatience Harry recognized Hermione’s offer to accompany him into Umbridge’s office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty.

It’s the words solidarity and loyalty that are interesting to me.

sol·i·dar·i·ty

Harmony of interests and responsibilities among individuals in a group.

loy·al·ty

a feeling of devotion, duty, or attachment to somebody or something

I love that word Harmony. Anyway,

Harry recognizes that there is a harmony of interests between Hermione and himself. In short they are a group within the group. Plus Harry recognizes that Hermione has feelings of devotion and attachment to him.

So to me this is the starting point for Harry to realize that he has feelings of more than just friendship for Hermione. Now there are examples of Hermione’s loyalty to Harry throughout the books but I think that this one is special because this is the moment when Harry recognizes that he and Hermione are a group within a group.

I originally posted this. Now why is this important. In Hogwarts we have the 4 houses

Gryffindor, Slytherin, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw. Now these are the 4 founders of the houses before the split up and the disunity that prevailed.

Now in Harry we have Gryffindor/Slytherin. Harry was placed in Gryffindor but has many qualities that he could have excelled with in Slytherin.

In Hermione we have Gryffindor/Ravenclaw. Hermione was placed in Gryffindor but considered for Ravenclaw.

So in Harry and Hermione we have Gryffindor/Slytherin/Ravenclaw.

Now the defining trait of the Hufflepuff is loyalty. We now go back to

OotP Ch 32 Out of The Fire Pg 737 US Version

Even through his anger and impatience Harry recognized Hermione’s offer to accompany him into Umbridge’s office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty.

So in Harry and Hermione we now have Gryffindor/Slytherin/Ravenclaw and in their loyalty to each other we now have Hufflepuff. All of the houses are represented.

Now in OotP the Sorting Hat introduced us to the theme of the unity of the houses and the disunity that brought about the problems. Once again we turn to JKR

OotP Ch 32 Out of The Fire Pg 737 US Version

Even through his anger and impatience Harry recognized Hermione’s offer to accompany him into Umbridge’s office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty.

And the defintion of solidarity,

sol·i·dar·i·ty

Harmony of interests and responsibilities among individuals in a group.

So in Harry and Hermione we have the restoration of the unity of the 4 original houses of Hogwarts.

Cheers!

Shocking but always welcomed lleyki. You were missed too Turambar. It has been pretty difficult to find something to argue or make a point about anymore. You people are very bright and cover certain aspects of the book incredibly well.

Anyway, here's that passage lleyki

The Easter holidays were not exactly relaxing. The third years had never had so much homework. Neville Longbottom seemed close to a nervous collapse, and he wasn't the only one."Call this a holiday!" Seamus Finnigan roared at the common room one afternoon. "The exams are ages away, what're they playing at?" But nobody had as much to do as Hermione. Even without Divination, she was taking more subjects than anybody else. She was usually last to leave the common room at night, first to arrive at the library the next morning; she had shadows like Lupin's under her eyes, and seemed constantly close to tears.

Ron had taken over responsibility for Buckbeak's appeal. When he wasn't doing his own work, he was pouring over enormously thick volumes with names like The Handbook of Hippogriff Psychology and Fowl or Foul? A Study of Hippogriff Brutality. He was so absorbed, he even forgot to be horrible to Crookshanks. Harry, meanwhile, had to fit in his homework around Quidditch practice every day, not to mention endless discussions of tactics with Wood.

Hawk, Turambar, lleyki, :clap: to you all! Beautiful posts today! :)

I don't have anything to say except, WAY TO GO H/Hr's! Turambar, Illeyki, Sirius, Blacknight, Hawk, and anybody else I missed, y'all are doing an awesome job! I wish I had something to add, but I'm in a state of shock, such brilliant posts have left me speechless.

Falcon

Great posts Sirius, Ture, sone, lleyki, haycheng, FP and Hawk. :clap:

Let's look at the big picture.
Harry assumes - without much thought or any consultation - that:
a) Hermione will go with him to help Hagrid despite the fact that Ron's big game is on,
b) she will want to help him help Hagrid unconditionally and
c) that she will stick to the promise (she hasn't actually verbally made) and try to help, however unwilling she may be.
Why does he assume this?

Point A's been covered pretty well, I think. I particularly like Mad-I's observation that Hermione probably doesn't want to sit there and watch Ron endure Slytherin jeers.

p. 701

"And I wish they'd stop singing that stupid song...haven't they gloated enough?"

As for points B and C...well, this is a good example of why reading the material carefully helps. I've gone back and read most of the passages relating to the giants, and realized I was wrong. Completely wrong.

Hermione did in fact give verbal consent. But she gave it long before the incident with Grawp, and in a context only tangentially related to Harry.

p. 440

"I don't care if [Umbridge] throws out Trelawney but she's not taking Hagrid!"

Thus, while the point about Hermione going because she cares for Hagrid still holds for any and all of the interpretations, her reason for going has nothing to do with supporting Harry, except in the sense that any action which thwarts Umbridge helps him. She's already pledged to help Hagrid no matter what. She doesn't need to do it again. And Harry, apparently, remembers this:

p. 701

"Of course [Hagrid]'s going to be chucked out and to be perfectly honest, after what we've just seen, who can blame Umbridge?"

..."You didn't mean that," said Harry quietly.

At this juncture, Hermione's loyalty is anything but unquestionable. She's willing to throw aside the very basis of her original promise. And while I won't deny there are certain H/Hr possibilities in the simple way Harry's able to call her attention to this fact, the reminder itself makes it clear he's not assuming anything from her.

Afterall Ron's first reaction is to say 'no this is silly, the promise should be broken'. So if he had assumed the same of Ron as he did with Hermione he would have been wrong.

We can't know that for certain. As we all well know, Ron wasn't there. He didn't get the full effect of Hagrid's plea, which might have changed his attitude.

Skipping ahead a bit, as I'd prefer to focus exclusively on the giants issue:

On your view of giants: surely it was obvious from the chapter where Hagrid recounts his trip that pure-blooded giants are scary, violent and murderous?

Apparently not to Hermione. After all that Hagrid tells them, she does not react with disgust or horror; instead, she asks Hagrid if he had a chance to meet his mother. She clings to the hope that Hagrid was able to get something good out of his visit with his people. Meeting Grawp forces her to confront that happy-family reunion scenario for what it actually is.

And as Muggles wouldn't both Harry and Hermione have been aware of the frightening possibilities of giants, that it would be rather like coming up against King Kong?

Muggle culture is full of conflicting images of giants. Even "Jack and the Giant Beanstalk" has a somewhat sympathetic figure in the giant's wife. And I'm pretty sure wizards would never think to use adjectives like "gentle" and "jolly" to describe giants. It would have been easy for Harry and Hermione to overlook the more negative portrayals in favor of the positive ones, particularly with Hagrid as a template.

And wasn't Hermione's concern more with stigmatised half-breeds (Rita's article, Umbridge's attitudes) and lowly enslaved house elves rather than the pure-blood giants?

True, but it's a slippery slope. The sort of attitude that considers giants hopelessly vicious isn't too far off from the sort that considers centaurs more horse than human, or house elves capable of nothing but subservience.

Thanks Hawk, Sone, Sirius, GG, Falcon.

Reply to Mad-I Moody

M-IM: I agree with the part about Frodo being beyond the understanding of most others. I don't, however, agree that Hermione necessarily "keeps pace" with Harry, not in the sense of understanding him in such a way that, once his long ordeal is over, he can finally be happy with her by his side (in a romantic sense). I see strong similarities between Harry and Frodo here, in that I believe that they are on journeys, accompanied by loyal, true, loving friends – but the journey ultimately comes down to just one – Harry/Frodo. Hermione, nor any other character (save maybe Luna or Neville to a small degree) truly understand the weight of Harry's burden. Well, the burden of the prophecy has not yet been revealed, but, when it is, who will be able to truly understand what it means to Harry? The burdens Harry has shouldered to this point (death of both parents, abusive home, facing Voldemort 4 times, thinking he's being hunted by a mass-murderer, watching a classmate die, watching his godfather die, being inhabited by the most evil wizard of all time, having Voldemort break in to his mind) have been shouldered by him alone. His friends are there to support and care for him, to give him the love he so needs and desires, and they help him to find the strength he needs, but they ultimately cannot carry the "ring" for him, nor can they truly understand what it means to be a "ringbearer." That's my opinion, of course, and I certainly respect yours as well.

Me: I agree with what you say about Harry having experienced some very important events that none of his friends have and you've pointed them out. What I mean by Hermione keeping pace with Harry involves a mix of things:

1) Background
Of his closest friends, Hermione is the only one Muggle-raised, so in common with Harry has had to adjust to a new world and gain knowledge of it. Both have been marked out - Harry because of who he is, Hermione as a mudblood - and both have similar values in part because of being outsiders. But they also value loyalty, bravery, unpretentiousness and so on. They are both driven by fear of failure. In all these ways they are more alike than Harry/Ron or Hermione/Ron.

2) Power and development
If you look at what Hermione achieved in OOTP she did what the Order couldn't do which was get Harry's story of Voldemort returning out to the public. She did what Dumbledore and McGonagall couldn't do in eliminating Umbridge's power at the school (with a bit of help from the centaurs). She came up with the idea of using the coins for DA meetings, based on the idea of the DE tattoos. So as Harry increases in stature in the wizarding world, so does Hermione. For some reason, JKR chose to push Ron into the background of the trio's debates and make him more of a supportive figure while bringing Harry and Hermione more to the fore as leaders. I think this is related to the separate knowledge, experience and confidence gained on their adventures together as well as what they've achieved individually. They are the two outstanding figures among the students at Hogwarts.

3) Understanding
Harry and Hermione are at the point in OOTP where they know each other extremely well, better than anyone else. This comes across in lots of ways which I'm not going to go into because it would take too long.

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M-IM: I'm going to have to disagree with this. Hermione does have to be in the Grawp sequence, and it doesn't have to be foreshadowing of a h/Hr relationship. Ron is playing Quidditch; therefore, he cannot come. Harry is banned from Quidditch, so naturally, he is sitting watching the match with his other best friend, Hermione. Hagrid comes up and asks both of them to come with him and tells them it is important. Is Hagrid really only going to ask Harry? Are Harry and Hermione really going to pass up a chance to find out what's been going on with Hagrid? Are they just going to flat-out say "no, we want to watch the game, we'll come by later" when it is so obviously important that they go with Hagrid right then? I'm of the mind that it would be completely out of character for Hermione to say "Well, um, I really want to see the rest of the match." First of all (and let's assume that she does have feelings for Ron), she's watching Ron get ridiculed and embarrassed. Probably not lots of fun. Secondly, Hermione isn't going to pass up a chance to find out what is going on with Hagrid – that is completely contrary to her nature.

Me: Again as I mentioned in reply to Rowena, these adventures should not be seen in isolation, they are part of a gradual development in the H/Hr relationship. For instance if you look at how Harry reacts to Hermione being in danger in the OOTP forest scenes, he is a lot more active, instinctive and physical about protecting her than he was in the POA SS/TT scenes. These adventures have built up their knowledge of each other and increased their closeness. As I explained in the reply to Rowena, the reader expects Hermione to go with Harry because of her past behaviour and what we know of her. But JKR is the puppet master: this and previous scenes could have been written in a different way. And no I don't agree they both had to go. Why couldn't Harry go and tell her about it afterwards? Why would Hagrid's problem be of more importance than Ron's big final? As you say, let's assume she does have feelings for Ron: why doesn't she want to stick around to support him? Through thick and thin. Or is it Harry she wants to support?

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M-IM: Many a glance has been shared by Harry and Ginny, Ron and Harry, Ron and Hermione, Hermione and Harry, Harry and Hagrid, Harry and Sirius, Harry and Snape, Harry and Malfoy – not a solid argument for romance, in my opinion.

Me: Sure but there's a difference between rare, isolated looks of communication scattered over the books, to solid blocks of them, highlighted by the author. Or to the author showing two characters having a special rapport while others are around but not included. And again we are saying that Harry and Hermione have a developing friendship, there's no open romance as yet.

Great posts lleyki and Turambar :D

Mars

Interestingly enough, Hermione didn't really have to go. She could have just given the Time Turner to Harry to go back. With her gone back though, she still didn't need to ride the Hippogriff, and JKR never had to use the Hippogriff in the first place. She also didn't need to knock Ron out, he could have shared in the adventure. Instead JKR wrote a beautiful Harry and Hermione adventure. It also doesn't change it being an H/Hr scene, because JKR wrote it the way she did. The scene where Ron and Hermione made up may or may not be significant, but the problem is that Ron didn't apologise. This may come back to haunt him, but that's for another thread. Now as for Harry and Hermione making up, let's not forget two things. The first is our beloved theory of interruptions which plays itself out during the making up. The second is that Harry and Hermione had not been fighting, only not on the best of terms with each other.
Yes, Harry and Hermione were fighting. They weren't talking to each other, or hanging out. They just have a different way of fighting than Ron and Hermione. But there was still no emotional make up sequence. We got more of a reaction from Hermione when Harry and Ron made up.
And the hippogriff thing----talk about beating a dead horse. No pun intended. But if you really, honestly, truthfully see that as a symbol for their "relationship,"that's fine, but don't you condsider it significant that they both voice their opinions that they don't enjoy it and find it uncomfortable?

Actually, there were two articles, not just the one where Hermione was supposedly playing with the boys hearts. However, for Molly to believe this after seeing the kids interacting at her own home and believe the article, she must have thought something was happening between them or she would have thought the article rubbish. That's your clue right there - Molly believed the article after seeing them interact for herself.
Actually, that's no clue at all. If you remember, Mrs. Weasley also bought into Rita's first article about Harry's emotional reaciton to his parents death, how he still cried, how he knew they were watching over him,etc. Now, she had known Harry for about four years by then and she believed this complete and utter dung. It was exactly the opposite of Harry's personality, what Harry himself said he had never thought let alone said, and she believed it. So, IMO, if she can be wrong about that, she can most certainly be wrong about Harry and Hermione, because I would argue that Harry's orphan situation and the way that he handles it are very apparent, and for Mrs. Weasley to miss something that big implies that her opinion isn't always correct. if she can miss a big thing, she can miss a little thing. This happens to the best of us. It happens to Mrs. Weasley in Book 2, when she fails to realize that Arthur had magically expanded the car. It happens in Book 4, when she fails to read through Skeeter's bull, even knowing that she writes horrible lies about the ministry. Mrs. Weasley knows that Rita is a liar, she even scolds Mr Diggory on believing her beofre hearing Harry's account that Hermione was "not my girlfriend" from Harry. Yet she believes it several times herself, so she is not a valid judge.



However, JKR still chose to write the scene in the way that she did. She didn't need to have Hermione so excited about being a prefect with Harry and then have no mention of her excitement or even her being happy for Ron upon finding out Ron was the prefect. This is what makes the scene a H/Hr moment - not that Hermione expected Harry to be a prefect, but that she was so excited to be a prefect with Harry and not Ron.
Frankly, the text never says she was dissapointed that Ron was prefect, in fact, she never mentions it again after the scene is over. She is shocked, and she should be: I certainly was. No one expected it, not even Harry, and JKR made a point of showing that Hermione was not the only one surprised. But there's simply no canon to support her being "dissapointed" or "not happy" to be with Ron. We really don't know how she felt about it, we know her initial reaction. Surprise, same as everyone else. I would argue also that she would be excited about being prefect even if a sea slug was her partner. :)



The real question here is that if this scene was supposed to be romantic at all, why was the sextet there? I'm not the one who tried to make this scene have any sort of meaning as far as relationships go though, that would be your shipmate. My take is that it means nothing as far as relationships go, but at the very best this is a missed R/Hr because they were both in the hospital wing together and theres no mention of anything about R/Hr.
Well it's through Harry's perspective. I really don't think JKR would mention a random R/Hr moment when Harry wasn't even in the hospital wing. Not to mention the fact that even if something WAS happening he wouldn't notice, as his mind was definitly still on Sirius and the prophecy.



Yes, but we've long said Ron may have a problem with H/Hr. Anyway, the point wasn't that she hugged Harry, it was that the hug lasted for an absurdly long time, if you read it out the dialogue spoken before the hug ended you'll see how long it is. I still don't understand what your point is though. I made the original post in response to Daveydee who said these were missed H/Hr moments. I showed how they were not missed H/Hr moments, but I was not trying to show how parts of the book are H/Hr, so I'm not sure where you're going with this rebuttle at all.
Of course Ron would have a problem with H/Hr, he has feelings for Hermione. But he needn't be worried, because it won't happen. No love triangle according to our beloved Jo Rowling, either.

That's possible, but very odd timing for JKR to have Hermione speak up. Also odd wording. "Hey, Harry, have you checked the time?" - calling across the room just as Harry was sharing a moment with Cho. Also, hermione was not shown as being comfortable with Harry/Cho, as we have shown repeatedly in our posts. She frowned, got brisk, businesslike, distant, vague over the kiss. She got firm and quickly left when Harry and Cho spoke after Christmas. She spoke in a bright voice while asking about Harry's very obviously botched Cho date. No, I can't say Hermione was comfortable with Harry/Cho at all.
Actually, she was the one who pointed out the possibility of Harry and Cho even occuring in the first place. She continued to give Harry support and advice on how to handle the realtionship, and showed genuine sympathy for the situation, even defended Cho's feelings!!! We've been over the kiss thing so many times I'm not briging it up. As for the "firm" thing, if I remember correctly she was being firm and quick towards/with Ron, and rightfully so, because he is occasionally slow on the uptake, and let's not forget he messed up Harry and Cho's last shot at conversation, which Hermione scolded him for.


JKR didn't need to have the owl get there that morning. She didn't need to have Hermione ask Harry to meet her on Valentine's Day, there's always the D.A. room and Rita being a beetle animagus. She can buy sweets before or after discussing things with Rita. It wouldn't be an obvious clue to have Hermione buy sweets because she bought for Harry in POA, not to mention JKR has never been secretive on the R/Hr front. I am also totally and utterly lost on how this can be a Hermione hates Umbridge moment.
First of all, both Hermy AND Ron got Harry sweets in PoA. Also, Rita is banned from the grounds. Why go through the trouble of sneaking her in on an already open Hogsmeade Day? It's not like Hermione only told Harry last minute to interrupt his date, she only found out last minute that Rita could come. And Rita's fickle, not to mention grumpy because she's unemployed. It was an opportunity that couldn't be missed.


Well, it's been picked apart =D. But I still don't understand where you were going with this rebuttle. It seemed at many times completely unrelated to the post I made which was to show DaveyDee how the points he made were not missed H/Hr moments at all.
Not that I like the idea of "missed moments" (because we can say so many different things were possible at any given time), [U]what about the fact that in GoF Harry would miss Ron before he missed Hermione? That's a missed H/Hr opportunity to "prove" the love shippers intend to prove they have for each other. I think that's more blatant than the Hippogriff 'moment.'[U]
Cheers! I'm hungry! ;)

POA: Ron and Hermione waiting together outside Florean Fortescues


Yep. They were waiting for Harry.


POA: Ron and Hermione working together on Buckbeak's defence


Yep and we know how that turned out. Buckbeak was an axe swing away from death. Its a good thing for Buckbeak (and Sirius) that Harry and Hermione work better as a team


GOF: Ron and Hermione together at the Burrow over summer


You make it seem like they "Harry-less" for weeks. Reality is it was approx 24 hours. However Harry and Hermione were there together long enoguh to have Molly believeing that "Skeeter woman's" article . .even though she was well aware of how Rita operates


OotP: Ron and Hermione made prefects together

As Dumbledore's second choice. I wonder if Seamus or Dean were Harry's best friend if one of them would have been chosen prefect instead? Really though this was more of an H/Hr moment.

OotP: Ron and Hermione together in the hospital wing

How's that romantic? They had a room full of people?

OotP: Ron and Hermione together at Grimmauld Place over summer


With Hermione going spare about Harry. I love the brief flash of jealousy from Harry. "holed up here together".

OotP: Ron and Hermione partnering in DA


Poor Neville. Always the forgotten one.

OotP: Ron and Hermione each without a Valentine date


And where was Hermione? Arranging an interview to help Harry. JKR passed up the perfect opportunity to write an R/Hr moment. Hermione could have been sitting in the stands lending Ron moral support during practice. After all Rita is an animagus, she could have easily been smuggled into Hogwarts in a coat pocket and carried out the interview in the Room of Requirement so the meeting at the Three Broomsticks wasn't strictly necessary. Or Hermione could have purchased him a box of sugar quills and explained to Harry that Ron really loved them. A majorly missed R/Hr moment

Thanks Mars
Replying to Rowena again:

RR: Point A's been covered pretty well, I think. I particularly like Mad-I's observation that Hermione probably doesn't want to sit there and watch Ron endure Slytherin jeers.

Me: Really? Isn't that like only supporting your sports team when they're winning? Or as JKR might put it, not being a "foul-weather friend".

xxxxx
RR: Thus, while the point about Hermione going because she cares for Hagrid still holds for any and all of the interpretations, her reason for going has nothing to do with supporting Harry, except in the sense that any action which thwarts Umbridge helps him. She's already pledged to help Hagrid no matter what.

Me: But hang on, this is a particular situation she's in where one of her best friends is in the quidditch final and needs support at the same time as Hagrid is also asking for support. Just because she made a pledge before doesn't mean the situation can't change or a compromise can't be reached. Harry, afterall, initially protests and asks Hagrid if it can't wait. He thinks Hagrid looks so miserable he should go. Again, why couldn't Harry go? Is Hagrid somehow now above Ron in importance to Hermione? Yet her feelings for Ron are such that she doesn't want to sit and endure a few crowd noises? Hermione chooses to go with Harry to help Hagrid and Harry instinctively expects her come with him.

xxxxx
RR: At this juncture, Hermione's loyalty is anything but unquestionable. She's willing to throw aside the very basis of her original promise. And while I won't deny there are certain H/Hr possibilities in the simple way Harry's able to call her attention to this fact, the reminder itself makes it clear he's not assuming anything from her.

Me: Not at all. She's just a mixture of upset, angry and anxious and giving vent to it. Harry recognises that. She's saying the idea is mad but that's different from seriously threatening not to do it.

xxxxx
RR: We can't know that for certain. As we all well know, Ron wasn't there. He didn't get the full effect of Hagrid's plea, which might have changed his attitude.

Me: Maybe. But I'm only going by Ron's words.

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RR: Apparently not to Hermione. After all that Hagrid tells them, she does not react with disgust or horror; instead, she asks Hagrid if he had a chance to meet his mother. She clings to the hope that Hagrid was able to get something good out of his visit with his people. Meeting Grawp forces her to confront that happy-family reunion scenario for what it actually is.

Me: Hermione's not stupid. Hagrid tells her about murder and giants beating other giants to a pulp. Some descriptions about Hermione re Hagrid's tale:"Whose head?" gasped Hermione." "Hermione clapped her hands to her mouth." "Did he rip off more heads?" asked Hermione, sounding squeamish."

There is no indication in the text that Hermione was expecting a happy story asking about Hagrid's mother. You're assuming that. She asks him "quietly" and at one point looks "scared". She knows it's a sensitive issue but cripes, he was meeting the giants, why not ask about Hagrid's giantess mother? She's curious and it's an interesting question to ask. Would you think the same thing of Harry if he asked it?

xxxxx
RR: Muggle culture is full of conflicting images of giants. Even "Jack and the Giant Beanstalk" has a somewhat sympathetic figure in the giant's wife. And I'm pretty sure wizards would never think to use adjectives like "gentle" and "jolly" to describe giants. It would have been easy for Harry and Hermione to overlook the more negative portrayals in favor of the positive ones, particularly with Hagrid as a template.

Me: I just can't agree. Giants are most often portrayed as huge and frightening.

Honestly - was my point missed that spectacularly. It seems like it was.

The purpose of me listing those occasions where Ron and Hermione were depicted together was to show that they shouldn't be seen as R/Hr moments, but that they were just part of the plot dynamic.

That was in response to Turambar's post a page or two back about H/Hr 'moments of togetherness'. What I'm saying is that you have to view those as part of the plot dynamic, too. You can't have one set of rules for one, and a second set of rules for the other.

First great post lleyki, Hawk, Turambar, Sirius, Nia, sone and last but not least haycheng. :clap:

Now by all this H/Hr scenes and all not used R/Hr scenes by JKR how lleyki did show is it fact that JKR chose it to write it like that. She did chose not to write R/Hr scenes. Not that they are clear R/Hr scenes.

Even the kiss in OoTP is different to the one in GoF. Simple after the fight with Ron and after to survive the three tasks and after to see another guy die and after that we saw how Ron speaks with Hermione at the Yule Ball is this kiss like symbole what end this all. Its look as if its hope. A little bit hope and its at the end off the book so its jumps out. Just think about it if this comes on to the screen. This is where the regiseur makes a big scene out.

But in OotP its in the middle of trouble. Its after Ron get his chance to be on the team. Its by the way and even covered for badges by the Slytherins this don't look like the other one.

Oh Please! Hermione didn't even know Harry and she claimed she knew all about him and follow him thru schooll. This is a really big double standard that the H/Hr side is holding. This issue for me has been settled a long time ago neither Ginny or Hermione were a fan girl. The statement is simply ridiculous. Fan girls were the girls in GoF who asked Harry out and trully didn't know him.
First Hermione is introduce as a know-it-all off course she did read about him and tells him this. But does she make a big deal about it? Does she say "Can I see your scar?" "Can you tell me about Voldemort?" But she never did so. She did probably not even recorgnise Harry after he told her his name. And she knew his name because its in her books. She is the only one where he did introduce himself without that she directly knew before say a word who he is.
Its not ridicullous because Ginny was one. Not every fan-girl have to be a stalker. There is a very high different. See Harrys other fan-girls which he has don't do it either. For me starts a fangirl right after someone point with the finger at someone else which he or she don't know and ask "Can I watch him?".

I think different moments need to be looked at individually and from the point of view of what the author is trying to achieve rather than to try to apply a broad standard. As FP said the two kisses are different. I once had a post comparing the PS hug and the POA hug and they are quite different. You also have to look at patterns developed over the books and how the relationships have changed.
Nia: enjoyed your Frodo/Harry post which made perfect sense.

That was in response to Turambar's post a page or two back about H/Hr 'moments of togetherness'. What I'm saying is that you have to view those as part of the plot dynamic, too. You can't have one set of rules for one, and a second set of rules for the other.

That is probably why your point was missed spectacularly. We are not setting any different rules to any part of the "plot dynamic". It is just what is there in the book. There is no need to change it.

Of course Ron would have a problem with H/Hr, he has feelings for Hermione. But he needn't be worried, because it won't happen. No love triangle according to our beloved Jo Rowling, either.

1) Can someone provide me with a link where this no love triangle quote comes from? I'm rather curious to read this quote.

2) What is always up with the whole Ron thing? Ron will have a problem. Ron will get upset. Ron will be cut out. Ron will have no one. Crud.

I fail to see why people think that Ron does not care enough for his friends to be happy for them if Harry and Hermione where to fall in love. Cannot Ron be noble enough to sacrifice for his friends? Should Hermione be with Ron just because Ron would get hurt if she loved Harry? I guess that Hermione shouldn't be happy but should be content that Ron would be?

I've said it before, might as well say it again,

I think that JKR is a great writer who could write H/Hr as a romance and still include Ron.
I think that Ron cares enough about his friends that their happiness is important to him.
I think that Ron will mature and place Harry and Hermione's feelings before his own.
I think that JKR can write H/Hr without a love triangle or breaking up the Trio.

Cheers!

To this comes that we don't know how much he like Hermione. If it to compare with Harrys liking with Cho than you can count he won't much care.

But like I said before love don't make three people happy this don't happen. Like R/Hr can hurt Harry so can H/Hr hurt Ron because this is a trio. There don't need even Ron have feelings for Hermione because it would hurt him anyway.

But I think it's live. Not everything will be just the same. This problem you will have if you all three put with other guys together. You still have this hurting factor.

Now to the kiss's and hug's its indeed interest for me that JKR did write every H/Hr and R/Hr that much different to each other. Its very different and thats for me interesting.

At the sametime if you take the COS scene as Harry thought Ginny is dead and compare it with the one in OotP as Harry thought Hermione is dead there is it alone from the place in this book, that say at the end, very similar. But the different is that in COS is it Riddle who say Ginny isn't dead yet (Still wondering how Harry could be that calm after that) and believed him and in OotP was it Neville who said Hermione is alright though Harry did ask twice.

Just interesting how JKR do write it. I mean honestly she make differents between R/Hr and H/Hr which will be very visibile on screen.
Didn't you never wonder why the COS-Movie was so much H/Hr though this book isn't that? Right you say its the actress who do this but do they really? Or is it rather JKR's writing what let H/Hr be that way.
To read a scene is very different as to see it.

An example just take the train-scene. This one is almost like canon but its appears different. In canon you got this feeling its R/Hr because Hermione speaks directly with Ron. But on screen you see how Harry is even in the time as Ron and Hermione speak to each other there and look from one to the other. Now Hermione is the new one so you guess she know Harry is watching her that say she behave different and that say she sounds more arrogant and more bussy as if Ron were alone in this compartment.

The interest part is that Harry don't look annoyed what you would expect. He is more slightley smiling like Hermione do it. Off course this is CC interpretation but JKR didn't disagree to that. So I can take it that this scene is how it is truthfully. Its looks very different if Harry sit there and Hermione and Ron are speaking, bickering to each other because you can count Hermione and Ron behave different if someone is watching.

This can even mean that both have different motives to be like that as it first looks like

Wow, this thread multiplies fast. Anyways, from the arguments that I read it was about the R/Hr vs. H/Hr w/ H/G on the side.As always my argument is against H/Hr :D

I'm gonna focus on the scene when Hermione was knocked out by a DE's spell. Harry's reaction: please don't be dead or it will be my fault(emphasis mine). A far cry from a realization of a true love. Isn't it always the case that you realize you love someone when you thought they're dead or gone? Instead, his reaction was it will be his fault. Clearly he doesn't want another death on his conscience. If there ever was a chance for us to see a glimpse of that deeply buried feeling by Harry to Hermione it's on that situation. But there's none of that.

Secondly, some may argue that he felt such a powerful relief b/c she's alive. Of he would, no death on his conscience. But my main argument is that instead of doing it himself Harry asked Neville to bring Hermione to safety. Would you trust another person the safety of the person that you love when DE's are around & Neville's wand broke. They would be sitting duck. She should be his first priority, her safety & no one elses. But it was clear to me that she wasn't.

It was also consistent w/ the previous book:

- she wasn't the person Harry would missed the most

- there was less laughter when he's w/ her. In plain speaking, she's boring.

- he didn't feel an odd sense of loss when she wasn't w/ him on the train ride.

- he roared & shouted at her a lot in Ootp when sometimes there is no justification for that

- he ignored her advice & lied to her

Clearly, if Hermione is the soulmate, the LI, she wouldn't be treated that way by Harry. She should come first to Harry's life. SHe should be the person that he would missed the most. He should never feel guilty if she dies, but feel a mind-numbing grief b/c of the loss. Yeah, he had no problem shielding her to Grawp & protecting her from the Centaurs but in most cases that should show his supposed love for her, it was nonexistent.

Turambar:
And Mad-I my favourite part of the ROTK trailer was the bit where Pippin asks if there's any hope for Frodo and Sam and Gandalf replies, 'only a fool's hope'.

That's a great part. I think my favorite was when Merry has Pippin's hand and he says "We will see the Shire again…" Wow. :wow:

As far as this goes:

1) Background
Of his closest friends, Hermione is the only one Muggle-raised, so in common with Harry has had to adjust to a new world and gain knowledge of it. Both have been marked out - Harry because of who he is, Hermione as a mudblood - and both have similar values in part because of being outsiders. But they also value loyalty, bravery, unpretentiousness and so on. They are both driven by fear of failure. In all these ways they are more alike than Harry/Ron or Hermione/Ron.
Ron also values loyalty and bravery. And, I'm going to have to say that Hermione doesn't always seem to value "unpretentiousness," per se. I'm thinking specifically of the scene in OotP where she seems to be trying to get Harry and Ron to tell her what grades they got, and she goes on and on and on about it – not to mention tells them her good grade. Maybe that's not pretension, but it isn't exactly humility.

2) Power and development
If you look at what Hermione achieved in OOTP she did what the Order couldn't do which was get Harry's story of Voldemort returning out to the public. She did what Dumbledore and McGonagall couldn't do in eliminating Umbridge's power at the school (with a bit of help from the centaurs). She came up with the idea of using the coins for DA meetings, based on the idea of the DE tattoos. So as Harry increases in stature in the wizarding world, so does Hermione. For some reason, JKR chose to push Ron into the background of the trio's debates and make him more of a supportive figure while bringing Harry and Hermione more to the fore as leaders. I think this is related to the separate knowledge, experience and confidence gained on their adventures together as well as what they've achieved individually. They are the two outstanding figures among the students at Hogwarts.
IMO, the powerful natures of Harry and Hermione work against a possible relationship between them. To have two such powerful individuals together – well, it seems as though that aspect of their personalities would really clash in a romantic relationship. Hermione and Harry are both leaders, yes, but they each have different opinions on how they should lead – and both of them want to be right.


And no I don't agree they both had to go. Why couldn't Harry go and tell her about it afterwards? Why would Hagrid's problem be of more importance than Ron's big final? As you say, let's assume she does have feelings for Ron: why doesn't she want to stick around to support him? Through thick and thin. Or is it Harry she wants to support?
Harry couldn't go and tell Hermione about it afterwards because Hagrid specifically asks both of them to come. When he approaches them in the stands, he says Harry and Hermione's names, and then says "can yeh come with me?" Hagrid's problem is more important than Ron's big final because (a) Ron is currently being humiliated and it doesn't really seem like it is going to be a big, gut wrenching, tight game and (b) because Hagrid has been showing up all year with mysterious injuries. So what would be more important? Getting to the bottom of the Hagrid mystery and going with him after he implores them to come or watching your best friend, whether you care for him romantically or not, get slaughtered and teased? Which brings be to the "foul-weather friend" question. I don't think Hermione going with Hagrid has anything to do with her not wanting to support Ron. She can't do much for him from where she sits, and, as she says, she is sick of hearing the Slytherins sing Weasley is our King. On top of her inability to help Ron with this situation in any way, Hagrid, whom we all know Hermione cares for deeply (not in that way, guys), comes up to her (to Harry and her) and asks – pleads – with them to come with him. I just don't, and can't, see this as a moment when Hermione puts Ron aside and puts Harry first. If anything, she puts Ron aside for Hagrid, but I'm inclined to disagree with the connotations of that. On the surface, she chooses Hagrid over Ron – but with plenty of reasons that justify such a choice. And, when she is in the forest with Hagrid and Harry, she doesn't forget all about Ron: "So what is it you want Harry and Ron and me to do?"
Finally, when Hermione finally has to tell Ron that she and Harry missed most of the game, she stretches out her hand to him, saying "we didn't want to leave – we had to."


DDtW

Frankly, the text never says she was dissapointed that Ron was prefect, in fact, she never mentions it again after the scene is over. She is shocked, and she should be: I certainly was. No one expected it, not even Harry, and JKR made a point of showing that Hermione was not the only one surprised. But there's simply no canon to support her being "dissapointed" or "not happy" to be with Ron. We really don't know how she felt about it, we know her initial reaction. Surprise, same as everyone else. I would argue also that she would be excited about being prefect even if a sea slug was her partner.
Absolutely. And actually, we do sort-of know, by implication, how she must feel about it (being a prefect, if not being a prefect with Ron). She doesn't tell Harry that she's really sorry he didn't make prefect, or how she was looking forward to being prefect with him, or how she's very disappointed that he didn't make it when they are alone in the room together. Isn't this one of those opportunities for JKR to write a nice little H/Hr scene – when they are alone together and Harry has just been obviously disappointed? But instead, Hermione asks him if she can use his owl, and then leaves him alone. Later, on the train, she and Ron have to leave him. She doesn't offer an apology or anything. She just says she doesn't think it will take long, and Ron adds to that saying he doesn't really want to go. If she was so looking forward to being prefect with Harry, and if she was so disappointed when Ron was made prefect and not Harry, wouldn't it come up again when Ron and Hermione are mentioned doing something prefect-ish? And wouldn't Hermione have stretched out a placatory hand to him when they were alone together, just like she offered Ron her hand after explaining that she and Harry had to miss the Quidditch final?

GryffindorGal

And where was Hermione? Arranging an interview to help Harry. JKR passed up the perfect opportunity to write an R/Hr moment. Hermione could have been sitting in the stands lending Ron moral support during practice. After all Rita is an animagus, she could have easily been smuggled into Hogwarts in a coat pocket and carried out the interview in the Room of Requirement so the meeting at the Three Broomsticks wasn't strictly necessary. Or Hermione could have purchased him a box of sugar quills and explained to Harry that Ron really loved them. A majorly missed R/Hr moment

I can't understand this argument. Rita Skeeter is an unregistered Animagus, which is illegal. To smuggle her in to Hogwarts for a secret meeting would not only NOT be "easy," it would be dangerous, and unlikely that Rita would put her neck on the line with a risk like that. I don't think that JKR 'missed' an opportunity to write a R/Hr scene here – I think she took the opportunity to "flesh out" Harry and Cho's dynamic and to have Harry tell his story. Harry and Cho's dynamic is dependent on Harry meeting Hermione at the Three Broomsticks, which is, in turn, dependent on Hermione receiving the last minute owl that Rita can make it. This has to take place in hogsmeade because Harry has already made plans to be there, and it has to take place in hogsmeade because that is one place where Rita can walk around freely and not have to be "smuggled in" anywhere. These events all rely on each other – it isn't a randomly placed shipper or missed shipper moment.

Ah I get something to eat thats nice.

I'm gonna focus on the scene when Hermione was knocked out by a DE's spell. Harry's reaction: please don't be dead or it will be my fault(emphasis mine). A far cry from a realization of a true love. Isn't it always the case that you realize you love someone when you thought they're dead or gone? Instead, his reaction was it will be his fault. Clearly he doesn't want another death on his conscience. If there ever was a chance for us to see a glimpse of that deeply buried feeling by Harry to Hermione it's on that situation. But there's none of that.

Well, well you say Harry did fear to lose Hermione because he had to blame himself? Right, very right. Harry fears to lose Hermione because of his doing that he did bring her into danger. Because he is right, very right that it would be his fault. Hermione wouldn't be stupid enough to go because of a dream into danger but still she was there, still she was with him, for him there and Harry know it. If Hermione dies there in DoM than is it Harrys fault. But he didn't just think this because thats why she shouldn't die because of that he did it because she shouldn't die at all. There are feelings, deep feelings in this scene even you don't agree to H/Hr than is it there as friends. He care about her.

Secondly, some may argue that he felt such a powerful relief b/c she's alive. Of he would, no death on his conscience. But my main argument is that instead of doing it himself Harry asked Neville to bring Hermione to safety. Would you trust another person the safety of the person that you love when DE's are around & Neville's wand broke. They would be sitting duck. She should be his first priority, her safety & no one elses. But it was clear to me that she wasn't.

The problem is there are still four guys down there with him, because of him. He couldn't leave even if he wanted. But he wanted Hermione to be save thats why he told Neville to go with her. But he didn't. Now why didn't Harry argue Neville has to go because of hermione? Simple because there are two posbiles which say:

A) Neville gos alone with Hermione away.

That say Harry don't know if Hermione will be save at all. Because DE are around and could harm theme.

B) Neville stays with Hermione.

Harry has her still there and isn't in the dark what with her.

It was also consistent w/ the previous book:

- she wasn't the person Harry would missed the most

- there was less laughter when he's w/ her. In plain speaking, she's boring.

- he didn't feel an odd sense of loss when she wasn't w/ him on the train ride.

- he roared & shouted at her a lot in Ootp when sometimes there is no justification for that

- he ignored her advice & lied to her

You telling me that Cho was that what Cedric missed the most and not his parents? Or that Hermione is that for Krum and not his family? And that Ron is it but not Sirius?
Do you know how this hostage where selected? How and over all who did it?
If Ron is the thing Harry miss the most than why didn't Harry bring him directly save out of the water? Why did he first free him and than let him alone just to get Hermione who was not his hostage? Why? Because its this saving thing? If it was only this saving thing than a hero did chose the smallest and that say Gabrielle but he did chose Hermione. To this comes he did bring Ron in danger.

There were guys around with weapons and Harry did leave Ron alone though he did take the song serious. Not only seconds it was longer. Would you leave that what you miss the most alone? I for once not. And Harry didn't He didn't leave Hermione alone till he knew she was save.

Off course there was less laughter because Harry had a fight with Ron. What do you expect? That he has fun even he has a fight with Ron? Thats really a funny arguement if you ask me because first its say Ron is Harrys best friend than he has to be fun if he has a fight with him.
To this comes Harry had in OotP more laughter with Hermione as with Ron. Even in the forrest with grawp was more fun as with Ron.

He had this odd sense of lost because his two best, that say both, weren't there with him in this compartment. To this comes what did rescue Harry from the dementors? His thoughts at Ron and Hermione.

Ron did yell at Hermione in GoF. He did it at an official ball. He did ruin her day bring her to cry. Did lie to her, was mean to her. Personal mean. Is this any better?

Harry didn't shout at Hermione because of her, he did it because he did feel alone and she did understand him. She did never understand Ron in GoF why he yell at her and wasn't willing to understand.
By Harry she was it. She wasn't hurt not because his words hurt her rather that Harry did feel like that.

So after all we should open the ship Hermione/Neville. Shouldn't we?

FP:
I'd like to respond to your response to MagicianGirls' post. She said:


I'm gonna focus on the scene when Hermione was knocked out by a DE's spell. Harry's reaction: please don't be dead or it will be my fault(emphasis mine). A far cry from a realization of a true love. Isn't it always the case that you realize you love someone when you thought they're dead or gone? Instead, his reaction was it will be his fault. Clearly he doesn't want another death on his conscience. If there ever was a chance for us to see a glimpse of that deeply buried feeling by Harry to Hermione it's on that situation. But there's none of that.

And you replied:

Well, well you say Harry did fear to lose Hermione because he had to blame himself? Right, very right. Harry fears to lose Hermione because of his doing that he did bring her into danger. Because he is right, very right that it would be his fault. Hermione wouldn't be stupid enough to go because of a dream into danger but still she was there, still she was with him, for him there and Harry know it. If Hermione dies there in DoM than is it Harrys fault. But he didn't just think this because thats why she shouldn't die because of that he did it because she shouldn't die at all. There are feelings, deep feelings in this scene even you don't agree to H/Hr than is it there as friends. He care about her.
I don't think that MG was trying to say that Harry doesn't care about Hermione. I don't think you'll find a person on this thread claiming something like that. I think that the point was that often times, people realize that they love someone when they are on the brink of losing them. Harry's response to Hermione being knocked out in the DOM is very emotional, yes, but it seems to lack the elements of such a "I love you don't leave me" kind of scene. His thoughts automatically go to the fact that it would be his fault. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead – of course he doesn't want her to die. Of course a powerful wave of relief sweeps over him when Neville says she has a pulse – Hermione, one of his best friends in the entire world, whom he led recklessly into danger, is alive. In my opinion, this is a moment in which JKR can show the power of their friendship or the fact that something more is developing. She shows how much Harry cares about Hermione's well-being, yes, but Harry also cares about the others, and immediately after finding out that Hermione is alive, he jumps up to go and find the others. When Ron is attacked by the brain, Harry's thoughts are that he hopes Neville stays behind with Ron to make sure Ron is OK. I just find it a little odd that, if Harry is supposed to have these unrealized romantic feelings for Hermione, why they didn't jump to the surface when he thought he had lost her. It's human nature to realize such things when faced with the loss of them. I won't disagree that this is a powerful scene, but I believe it is a powerful scene that shows the bond of friendship between Harry and Hermione >> he cares for her, he doesn't want her to die, and he doesn't want the reason she dies to be him. But there is no inkling of any sort of epiphany for Harry. No "I can't lose her." No "What will I do if Hermione dies?" At least, we don't get any indication of this.


He had this odd sense of lost because his two best, that say both, weren't there with him in this compartment. To this comes what did rescue Harry from the dementors? His thoughts at Ron and Hermione.

The odd sense of loss on the train seems to be (at least, to me) specifically about riding the train without Ron. I don't know the direct quote, but I think it says "Harry felt an odd sense of loss. He had never ridden on the Hogwarts Express without Ron before." It doesn't seem to be related to Hermione at all – at least, she's not mentioned in conjunction with the odd sense of loss Harry feels.

The odd sense of loss on the train seems to be (at least, to me) specifically about riding the train without Ron. I don't know the direct quote, but I think it says "Harry felt an odd sense of loss. He had never ridden on the Hogwarts Express without Ron before." It doesn't seem to be related to Hermione at all – at least, she's not mentioned in conjunction with the odd sense of loss Harry feels.
you are correct, that is what Harry says on the train. It is Ginny who get him out of it. It is nothing important really. It is kind of like I am on a flight alone first time.

As for the DoM scene, I need to reread it. However, it is carefully chosen by JKR on this scene. I do not know what it mean. May be JKR just want to reinforce H/Hr bond(Dont we have enough already?!:huh:)Or could be a foreshadow. May be Hermione will die, become a vega or lose most of her mind. Who know why JKR pick Hermione for this scene. One can assure that JKR must have done so carefully as it is a very emotional scene(ever most consider it is not romantic).

Please, do not flame me because I predicted the death of Hermione(I realize both R/Hr and H/Hr will not be happy if Hermione died. However, there always a chance there, like it or not)

I don't think that MG was trying to say that Harry doesn't care about Hermione. I don't think you'll find a person on this thread claiming something like that. I think that the point was that often times, people realize that they love someone when they are on the brink of losing them. Harry's response to Hermione being knocked out in the DOM is very emotional, yes, but it seems to lack the elements of such a "I love you don't leave me" kind of scene.

He react that he could lose her but its that he isn't yet in love with her. Even if he started in OotP to start have feelings go further as friendship this don't say he react already as if he lose his soulmate.

In another instance if you are suspicious if you like someone you can react like that and think "It's my fault!" Do you know how often I read a novel where the boyfriend said its my fault if she die? Countless because its exactly how it is.
Its state that he is the one who brought her into this situation even if you are terrible in love you would think this and it would hurt terrible if she is indeed dead because of you. I tell you the first thing you do if the one you love looks like dead you blame yourself. Thats how I know it and Harry do this.

The odd sense of loss on the train seems to be (at least, to me) specifically about riding the train without Ron. I don't know the direct quote, but I think it says "Harry felt an odd sense of loss. He had never ridden on the Hogwarts Express without Ron before." It doesn't seem to be related to Hermione at all – at least, she's not mentioned in conjunction with the odd sense of loss Harry feels.

I know that you right but I don't see why is that against H/Hr? Because I'm sure Ron would miss rather Harry as Hermione because they have meet at first in this train. Its where they started. For me is it more important that Harry was only able to create a patronuse after he thought at Hermione and Ron even he was angry with them. This shows they are the most important things in this world to Harry what Sirius not was not that much like his two friends.

EDIT: Haycheng: You aren't alone I predict Hermiones dead since I'm in fandom, since I read book3 I have this feeling she might be the one who die at the end. Do you have an idea how I saw this scene as I read it? I thought "My, my she is really only inches away to let her die!" This scene isn't that scary like the one with McGonagall thats why I think we will see that again in book7.
Its true its more emotional as Sirius dead itself and thats strange.

This needs to be analyzed. The DoM scene where, for a split second, Harry has to face the possibility that Hermione had died, and it is his fault. And how does he react? He dragged them into this mess. It really would have been his fault if Hermione died, just as it was his fault Sirius died, despite Dumbledore trying to put some of the blame on himself, and Harry being in total denial and blaming it on Snape. I hope I never have to know what that feels like. To know that my loved ones are dead and gone, and that I was responsible for it. And what we see in the way of reaction from Harry is basically denial, a 'no! you can't die!" reaction, coupled with 'it's my fault!'. And those reactions, if read in combonation with each other, can be seen as a very cold reaction, and definitely not one you would see if he really loved her, and his soul was being ripped away with her. As if he's only thinking about himself, and that it is his fault. And the guilt he will have to deal with. And the reactions of all the people he let down.

I'll have to come back and finish this later. brb.
EDIT:

Okay, now let's continue.

As I said, those reactions can be viewed as him having more concern for himself than her, not to say that he doesn't care at all, it's just his concern for her seems taking a back seat for some reason. But when you really think about it, would that not be completely and utterly uncharacteristic of Harry? To put himself before others? Especially in the case of his best friend dying in front of him? I can't picture it very easily, myself. Actually I can, but it looks like some kind of sick parody of the actual scene.

Well then, in that case, why did he react that way, and/or what did that reaction really mean?

*sigh*... well I thought I was going to be able to run home and get my book, but my brother seems to have 'borrowed' it again. So I'll have to wait until later to finish my analysis. See you then.

I know that you right but I don't see why is that against H/Hr? Because I'm sure Ron would miss rather Harry as Hermione because they have meet at first in this train. Its where they started. For me is it more important that Harry was only able to create a patronuse after he thought at Hermione and Ron even he was angry with them. This shows they are the most important things in this world to Harry what Sirius not was not that much like his two friends.

I didn't say it was for or against any ship. I was merely correcting the assumption that:

He had this odd sense of lost because his two best, that say both, weren't there with him in this compartment. To this comes what did rescue Harry from the dementors? His thoughts at Ron and Hermione.


He doesn't have the odd sense of loss because his two best, that says both, friends weren't there. He has it because he's never ridden the Hogwarts Express without Ron.

Not a shipping point, really. Just a rebuttal to what I felt was an inccorect assumption. :D

Well, well you say Harry did fear to lose Hermione because he had to blame himself? Right, very right. Harry fears to lose Hermione because of his doing that he did bring her into danger. Because he is right, very right that it would be his fault. Hermione wouldn't be stupid enough to go because of a dream into danger but still she was there, still she was with him, for him there and Harry know it. If Hermione dies there in DoM than is it Harrys fault. But he didn't just think this because thats why she shouldn't die because of that he did it because she shouldn't die at all. There are feelings, deep feelings in this scene even you don't agree to H/Hr than is it there as friends. He care about her.

I don't get what you're saying. You're saying that there arwe deep feelings and then you're saying the feelings are there of friendship. If you're talking about the feelings of friendship then I'll agree. Harry, Ron, Hermione are the best of friends and if any of them died it would be a painful loss for each of them.

If you're talking about Harry being sad if Hermione died because he's got deep underlying romantic feelings for her then I'm going to have to disagree. No indication of deep underlying feelings. Just a deep feeling of friendship, imho.

I don't think that MG was trying to say that Harry doesn't care about Hermione. I don't think you'll find a person on this thread claiming something like that. I think that the point was that often times, people realize that they love someone when they are on the brink of losing them. Harry's response to Hermione being knocked out in the DOM is very emotional, yes, but it seems to lack the elements of such a "I love you don't leave me" kind of scene.

I'm going to have to agree with you. I mean, if he truly was falling for her then he'd show more of a reaction like "You can't leave me. I just figured out it was you all along. Don't leave." But it wasn't like that. It was "Please don't die. It's all my fault if she's dead." Something to that degree. Not very romantic. If he truly was falling for her or had very deep underlying feelings I'm sure they would have come out. I mean, if someone you loved was on the brink of death wouldn't you finally confess your love to them before they were gone?

And the rebuttle: He react that he could lose her but its that he isn't yet in love with her. Even if he started in OotP to start have feelings go further as friendship this don't say he react already as if he lose his soulmate.

In another instance if you are suspicious if you like someone you can react like that and think "It's my fault!" Do you know how often I read a novel where the boyfriend said its my fault if she die? Countless because its exactly how it is.
Its state that he is the one who brought her into this situation even if you are terrible in love you would think this and it would hurt terrible if she is indeed dead because of you. I tell you the first thing you do if the one you love looks like dead you blame yourself. Thats how I know it and Harry do this.

I'm a disagree with you. What a surprise. :D If indeed Harry was developing feelings for Hermione and they weren't fully fledged yet I'm sure they would have shown. Hypothetically speaking, well not really hypothetical, but anyway, they're in the DoM, Hermione goes down, Harry sees this. If he were falling for her wouldn't you think he'd at least say "You can't leave me yet"? I mean, all he said was "It's my fault if she's dead" And indeed it would be his fault if she was dead. I don't see how this is romantic. If she died he led her to her death. It wasn;t like they were walking down the street and some drive-by happened and she took a bullet for him. Indeed the DoM scene was Harryu's fault.

haycheng, I can see why you'd think Hermione is going to die, but I don't think she is. For one thing, she's already skirted death and survived. It seems to be a thing with a few of the characters. Ginny skirted death but I think she'll survive. Arthur skirted death but I think he'll survive. Harry's skirted death, what four or five times? He's the wild card but I think he'll survive. I think Molly and a few of the other Weasley's, save Ron because I'm hoping he won't be the one, will die. But I think this is the Who Will Die thread so...

Yup, great to be back.

This needs to be analyzed. The DoM scene where, for a split second, Harry has to face the possibility that Hermione had died, and it is his fault. And how does he react? He dragged them into this mess. It really would have been his fault if Hermione died, just as it was his fault Sirius died, despite Dumbledore trying to put some of the blame on himself, and Harry being in total denial and blaming it on Snape. I hope I never have to know what that feels like. To know that my loved ones are dead and gone, and that I was responsible for it. And what we see in the way of reaction from Harry is basically denial, a 'no! you can't die!" reaction, coupled with 'it's my fault!'. And those reactions, if read in combonation with each other, can be seen as a very cold reaction, and definitely not one you would see if he really loved her, and his soul was being ripped away with her. As if he's only thinking about himself, and that it is his fault. And the guilt he will have to deal with. And the reactions of all the people he let down.

I try it now to explain it a little bit more.

Blaming dead

Firstley I start again with love because that what we debatte here. Did Harry react like that because he is cold, selfish or because he love Hermione and Sirius? Thats the question what we ask us, rather you because I can understand Harry at this point.
You love someone for himself not because something else, right? Right, this say its your love or rather them love for you why they at this point, why they die.

Let explain it more. I do it now only with Hermione but this plays for Sirius the same part. See Hermione was at the beginning only a know-it-all and not be friend with Harry but she was perfectly save. No danger, no one who wanted kill her. As fast as she become in near of Harry she started to be in danger first the troll, basilisk, dementors and DE.
She is a very very close friend of Harry and he really care about her. As it was the question about if Sirius is in Voldis hands Hermione was against it, didn't believe it. But Hermione did go with him in the end to DoM.
There was it dangerous and this guys wanted kill them.
At the moment as Hermione was hit by this spell and falled to earth Harrys mind pleaded that she isn't dead, it would be his fault.
You know if someone dies who is that close to you, who you love you blame yourself anyway but this is special because Harry knew at this time already that it was his fault that they were there, that he didn't listening to Hermione. But than Hermione who was right lay there looks dead, hell it would be his fault that say he knew at once that if he lose her, he lose everything.

I explain if you are to blame and you know before something happens you are to blame its double hard, because you don't need anymore speak yourself in that you was it who killed her, because you already know it. You don't need anymore think If I did never meet her she did live because its already clear.
Its not cold, its directly from the heart what wants to stop to beat, believe me it want to stop, you want to stop and Harry did at this moment. He did even stop to think later he started to think again properly. Everything around him seems to be slower at this moment because he wouldn't and couldn't take it if she is dead and I'm sure if she were dead it were different as by Sirius, very different. Not anger rather numbness.

Its a dreadful feeling to blame yourself for such things and if it hits you directly than its more as dreadful. I do understand fully why Harry react like that because he don't can react different. His mind don't work further as the fact He is to blame and that she might be dead. He isn't able to think or rather to imagine what this really means. How live did become, how lost he would be.
At such moments you don't think so. You are hit with the reality and at this point Harry knew only two truths 1) She might be dead. 2)It would be his fault.
Thats the two easiest ways to think and what his mind is able to do at this point.

You aren't knee there and ask yourself philosoph questions or how much you really loved somebody its in Harrys reaction to read how much. He falls to his knees and stop to think, twisting around.

This is a very interesting discussion. It serves to highlight the fundamental difference between the H/Hr ship who take the natural process of two friends caring for one another and see romance in that, and the R/Hr ship who see that mutually caring behaviour between Harry and Hermione as just that.

Nothing more profound to say than that at this stage - just initial impressions following a quick skim over these recent posts. I go over them in detail now.

But hats off to Magician Girl for highlighting those excellent points, and to all for the subsequent discussion esp Mad-I Moody (of course) and Fairydust (nice to see you back) and the rest of the crew.

I try it now to explain it a little bit more.

Blaming dead

Firstley I start again with love because that what we debatte here. Did Harry react like that because he is cold, selfish or because he love Hermione and Sirius? Thats the question what we ask us, rather you because I can understand Harry at this point.
You love someone for himself not because something else, right? Right, this say its your love or rather them love for you why they at this point, why they die.

Hi again. I'm not sure if I understand this. I must say that I certainly never meant to imply that Harry's reaction to Hermione being knocked out was cold or selfish. I simply think that it wasn't the reaction of someone with deep, underlying romantic feelings that have yet to be realized. When you are in danger of losing someone you love, that is when you feel it most painfully and so clearly -- the love, I mean.


Let explain it more. I do it now only with Hermione but this plays for Sirius the same part. See Hermione was at the beginning only a know-it-all and not be friend with Harry but she was perfectly save. No danger, no one who wanted kill her. As fast as she become in near of Harry she started to be in danger first the troll, basilisk, dementors and DE.
She is a very very close friend of Harry and he really care about her. As it was the question about if Sirius is in Voldis hands Hermione was against it, didn't believe it. But Hermione did go with him in the end to DoM.
There was it dangerous and this guys wanted kill them.
At the moment as Hermione was hit by this spell and falled to earth Harrys mind pleaded that she isn't dead, it would be his fault.
You know if someone dies who is that close to you, who you love you blame yourself anyway but this is special because Harry knew at this time already that it was his fault that they were there, that he didn't listening to Hermione. But than Hermione who was right lay there looks dead, hell it would be his fault that say he knew at once that if he lose her, he lose everything.
Yes, we've determined that it would have been completely and totally harry's fault if Hermione died in the DOM. His reaction is natural and heartbreaking. What I am saying, however, is that we have NO indication whatsoever that he "knew at once that if he loses her, he'll lose everything." All we have is "Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead" and a powerful wave of relief sweeping over Harry when Neville says he found a pulse. Immediately after that, harry jumps up to look after the others. There is no indication of deeper, underlying feelings for Hermione in this scene, and, I would think that this is the appropriate scene in which to display feelings like that if they exist. Harry is not reacting coldly or insensitively -- he's reacting the way a person would react if they thought their best friend was about to die, and realizing that his other friends are also in danger. He's shouldering the responsibility for their position. And he feels guilty and frightened. But I simply don't see anything deeper than that displayed in this scene, or even hinted at.

What does that mean? I'm not sure. It certainly doesn't rule out the possiblity that something can still develop between H/Hr. It just seems like one of those missed opportunities to really tout the impending H/Hr relationship, if there is to be one.

EDIT: Thanks Daveydee. :clap: right back at you, and to the rest of the Heron shipmates -- MagicianGirl, Fairydust, etc.
And a salute to the excellent Harmonians as well. :D I think today has held some really nice discussion.

I don't get what you're saying. You're saying that there arwe deep feelings and then you're saying the feelings are there of friendship. If you're talking about the feelings of friendship then I'll agree. Harry, Ron, Hermione are the best of friends and if any of them died it would be a painful loss for each of them.

First I said or rather tried to say both. One from H/Hr POV and one of R/Hr. See I did find that what MG said that Harry rather have fears to blame himself as to fear she might be dead. So I argue at least as friends he react not that selfish.


I'm a disagree with you. What a surprise. If indeed Harry was developing feelings for Hermione and they weren't fully fledged yet I'm sure they would have shown. Hypothetically speaking, well not really hypothetical, but anyway, they're in the DoM, Hermione goes down, Harry sees this. If he were falling for her wouldn't you think he'd at least say "You can't leave me yet"? I mean, all he said was "It's my fault if she's dead" And indeed it would be his fault if she was dead. I don't see how this is romantic. If she died he led her to her death. It wasn;t like they were walking down the street and some drive-by happened and she took a bullet for him. Indeed the DoM scene was Harryu's fault.

I see your point but, again but :rotfl:, Its implied that she would die to early. Harry don't need to think it because first she is anyway too young to die and second his mind was at this moment already blaming himself. See Harry did before Hermione falls blame himself because Sirius wasn't there. So it was in his mind already. So as Hermione falled and he pleaded "don't be dead..." His mind didn't work right, he couldn't think further not that far as to discover his unaware feelings.

If you love someone unaware of this and you see her fall your mind is in shock you don't discover as fast as you can this unaware feelings and says "Don't leave me now, not yet!" or something like that.

This comes later that says this comes in book6.

I know you might say I say this so easiely but I know what I say because I was probably in the same situation and its like that you don't think about that not yet its comes later if you ask "Why did it feel like that!"

If you love someone unaware of this and you see her fall your mind is in shock you don't discover as fast as you can this unaware feelings and says "Don't leave me now, not yet!" or something like that.

This comes later that says this comes in book6.

I know you might say I say this so easiely but I know what I say because I was probably in the same situation and its like that you don't think about that not yet its comes later if you ask "Why did it feel like that!"

Hi again!
I think this is going to have to be one of those things that differs from person to person, then. In many of the books and films I have read and seen, when someone is about to die (take the classic example of Beauty and the Beast -- use the movie or the book, the basics are the same), a person frequently realizes their feelings for the dying one. The Beast is about to die and Beauty (or Belle) finally realizes that she loves him and he can't leave her.

But, as you say -- you were in a similar situation and you didn't think like that. I wasn't in a terribly similar situation, but I have seen people I love die, and, for me, it was the moment when I thought they were gone forever, or at the moment when they actually died, when my love for them was most profoundly felt. It was like that moment encapsulated everything I had ever felt in my life, and it was the mot powerful love and hurt all at once.

In any case, sorry to open up the personal life on everyone...
The point is that there is no point, in the DOM or out of it, when Harry pauses to reflect on what would have happened if Hermione died. The moment when she is harmed is painful and guilt-ridden, and it shows how important she is to him as a friend, but there is no epiphany of feelings -- and, I really believe that something of this nature would surface at some point if these underlying, not-yet-realized feelings were there.

Thanks to Falcon, FP, Sirius, Grace and anyone else I might have missed.

I'm gonna focus on the scene when Hermione was knocked out by a DE's spell. Harry's reaction: please don't be dead or it will be my fault(emphasis mine). A far cry from a realization of a true love. Isn't it always the case that you realize you love someone when you thought they're dead or gone? Instead, his reaction was it will be his fault. Clearly he doesn't want another death on his conscience. If there ever was a chance for us to see a glimpse of that deeply buried feeling by Harry to Hermione it's on that situation. But there's none of that.

I like the part right before that where it says that there was a whine of panic inside Harry's head that prevented him from thinking straight. This is the first time we have had this strong a response from Harry. Espically in the heat of battle. He didn't have this strong a reaction to his own possible death in Cos and was able to continue to think clearly. He kept his head against Voldemort after Cedric was killed. But when it's Hermione he feels panic. Something new to Harry. I can't think of too many instances where Harry panics.

Secondly, some may argue that he felt such a powerful relief b/c she's alive. Of he would, no death on his conscience. But my main argument is that instead of doing it himself Harry asked Neville to bring Hermione to safety. Would you trust another person the safety of the person that you love when DE's are around & Neville's wand broke. They would be sitting duck. She should be his first priority, her safety & no one elses. But it was clear to me that she wasn't.

So what's being said here is that Harry should abandon his friends to Neville (not the best DADA) who has a broken wand and a broken nose so that he cannot talk properly. What is interesting is that he wants Neville to get Hermione out.

Now I'm sure that I'm not interpreting this correctly but to use this against H/Hr is kind of insulting. To me this is like degrading the love that a solider feels for his wife and family when he leaves them behind to serve with his comrades. Or when a solider loses his life saving the lives of his fellow soliders. Maybe he leaves a family (wife and kids) behind, are we saying that he/she didn't love his/her family because they wouldn't desert their comrades on the battlefield. Now I'm sure that I'm not getting what this poster meant but I do find that using this second point as a anti H/Hr point a little insulting.

- she wasn't the person Harry would missed the most

That was Gof. I think that we have seen a lot of growth between Harry and Hermione.

- there was less laughter when he's w/ her. In plain speaking, she's boring.

Don't agree here at all. I've had interesting conversations with people that were interesting and didn't have a ton of laughs. In short you can have an intelligent, meaningful conversation without a ton of laughs. Stress less and not none at all in the quote.

- he didn't feel an odd sense of loss when she wasn't w/ him on the train ride.

Can't answer this as I don't know what book, or chapter, or page you are referring to. Could you please tell me.

- he roared & shouted at her a lot in Ootp when sometimes there is no justification for that

He roared and shouted at Ron, Dumbledore, Ginny, Luna, Neville.

- he ignored her advice & lied to her

He ignored and lied to Ron as well.

What truly fascinates me is that you see the last 2 points as anti H/Hr points but Hr/R have had this going on for years. The yelling, shouting, ignoring, lying, and everything else and you consider that to foreshadow an Hr/R pairing. Yet strangely enough there is no reason for Ron and Hermione to yell and shout at each other but when Harry is under some immense pressure you call it no good reason. But I find it interesting that H/Hr has weathered this rather rough year and their friendship has grown through it.

Cheers!

I see your point but, again but , Its implied that she would die to early. Harry don't need to think it because first she is anyway too young to die and second his mind was at this moment already blaming himself. See Harry did before Hermione falls blame himself because Sirius wasn't there. So it was in his mind already. So as Hermione falled and he pleaded "don't be dead..." His mind didn't work right, he couldn't think further not that far as to discover his unaware feelings.

:rotfl: Now that I've got that out of my system.

It's implied that she would die too early? Where is it implied that Harry thought she was too young to die or that if she died it would be too early? Please direct me to a page in the book, the canadian or british version if you will, that says that Hermione was "too young to die"

And yeah Harry did blame himself for being an idiot. It would be his fault if he led his friends into doom. It was his fault. But you're saying that Harry's mind didn't work right. When Hermione fell and she was that close (I'm pinching my thumb and index finger together) to death, Harry couldn't think right? He couldn't grasp his underlying feelings? They didn't come out because he wasn't in a right state? :huh: okay.

If you love someone unaware of this and you see her fall your mind is in shock you don't discover as fast as you can this unaware feelings and says "Don't leave me now, not yet!" or something like that.

This comes later that says this comes in book6.

I know you might say I say this so easiely but I know what I say because I was probably in the same situation and its like that you don't think about that not yet its comes later if you ask "Why did it feel like that!"

Okay, say Harry had deep underlying romantic feelings for Hermione, say he couldn't think straight once he saw her hit the ground. He was in shock. Then why, oh why did he not say "Hermione could have died. It was all my fault that she got hurt. I care for her too much and I won't ever let what happened to her happen again" later? When indeed she got better and they were saved?

If indeed he has underlying feelings then why didn't they surface. She was near death. That should have at least caused him to recognise some feelings for her. I mean, every day could be their last and in the DoM it sure felt that way. Why hasn't he owned up to his feelings? Why hasn't she? The fact of the matter is, not once was there a mention of romantic feelings. Not once is there an exchange of a glance, a hug, a mere smile between the two.

Yup.

Edit: I like the part right before that where it says that there was a whine of panic inside Harry's head that prevented him from thinking straight. This is the first time we have had this strong a response from Harry. Espically in the heat of battle. He didn't have this strong a reaction to his own possible death in Cos and was able to continue to think clearly. He kept his head against Voldemort after Cedric was killed. But when it's Hermione he feels panic. Something new to Harry. I can't think of too many instances where Harry panics.

I think you're forgetting CoS scene where he ran staright to Ginny and cast his wand away to turn her over. Harry's reaction to that was "Don't be dead. Please don't be dead. Ginny, wake up. Please wake up" I don't have my book but that's the gist. Harry was panicky, I think, and he was desperate in that scene.

If your friend was say hit with a bullet or something and was so close to death, wouldn't you panic? Wouldn't you be scared? It's a normal reaction, I think, that Harry felt panic when he saw Hermione hit with the spell and knocked unconscious.

Can't answer this as I don't know what book, or chapter, or page you are referring to. Could you please tell me.



This is the part where Harry, Ron, and Hermione get on the Hogwarts Express at the beginning of OotP, and Ron and Hermione have to go do prefect-y stuff. Harry says (rather, internally narrates) that he felt an odd sense of loss because he had never ridden on the Hogwarts Express without Ron before. Don't have chapter or page number, but I hope this helps anyway!

Hello all!

I think you're forgetting CoS scene where he ran staright to Ginny and cast his wand away to turn her over. Harry's reaction to that was "Don't be dead. Please don't be dead. Ginny, wake up. Please wake up" I don't have my book but that's the gist. Harry was panicky, I think, and he was desperate in that scene.

Regarding both "death" scenes, in the scene at the MoM, Harry is worried about Hermione, yet his reaction is full of guilt "please don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead".

In the case of Ginny, he runs up to her and throws his wand aside and mutters desperately "please wake up, please don't be dead"; then he grabs her by the shoulders and is desperately trying to wake her up (her head is lolling from side to side). Then later, he tries to pick her up off the ground and carry her to safety. If H/G ends up together, this whole scene has more romantic vibes and implications, IMO.

I feel, as do a lot of H/Gers, that if this scene had taken place when Harry and Ginny were 16 and 17, it would just scream of romance. This is a classic rescue scene, as told by many fairy tales and stories, where the hero rescues the princess from the dragon (Basilisk) and fights the Dragon with a sword and carries the princess to safety in his arms. It's a classic story with a twist: Harry and Ginny are only 11 and 12, Harry can't take her in his arms because he is not strong enough yet and from what we've learned of Ginny's character, she is hardly a damsel in distress waiting to be rescued.

This is the difference, IMO, in both the Hermione almost dying scene and Ginny almost dying scene.

Hi again!
I think this is going to have to be one of those things that differs from person to person, then. In many of the books and films I have read and seen, when someone is about to die (take the classic example of Beauty and the Beast -- use the movie or the book, the basics are the same), a person frequently realizes their feelings for the dying one. The Beast is about to die and Beauty (or Belle) finally realizes that she loves him and he can't leave her.

But, as you say -- you were in a similar situation and you didn't think like that. I wasn't in a terribly similar situation, but I have seen people I love die, and, for me, it was the moment when I thought they were gone forever, or at the moment when they actually died, when my love for them was most profoundly felt. It was like that moment encapsulated everything I had ever felt in my life, and it was the mot powerful love and hurt all at once. <snip>


For the two statements that "bolded", I wanted to say that one is a fairytale situation and the other is a real life situation. If JKR is trying to make the human emotions as real as possible, I think the second statement makes more sense that the first. I don't know if you have a preference between the two statements or you just believe that in either cases the unrealized feelings should be shown, but I like the second one. Therefore, had Hermione died perhaps Harry would have realized his feelings for her.

Also, since JKR likes to twist things up, even if they are clichéd, perhaps she wanted to leave the declaration for later. Since she is developing H/Hr slowly, why have a sudden realization during someone being so close to death. This development is, of course, one of my preferences, so please do not judge all of my fellow Harmonians for my romantic ideas.


Fairydust:
Okay, say Harry had deep underlying romantic feelings for Hermione, say he couldn't think straight once he saw her hit the ground. He was in shock. Then why, oh why did he not say "Hermione could have died. It was all my fault that she got hurt. I care for her too much and I won't ever let what happened to her happen again" later? When indeed she got better and they were saved?

Perhaps Sirius's death and the revelation of the prophecy has caused for Harry to not think about anything else.

If indeed he has underlying feelings then why didn't they surface. She was near death. That should have at least caused him to recognise some feelings for her. I mean, every day could be their last and in the DoM it sure felt that way. Why hasn't he owned up to his feelings? Why hasn't she? The fact of the matter is, not once was there a mention of romantic feelings. Not once is there an exchange of a glance, a hug, a mere smile between the two.

Could it be that the timing isn't right? She did want to talk to Harry about Sirius, but Ron wouldn't let her. Who knows where a conversation about Sirius would have led had she been able to talk to him?

EDIT:
Prongs Sr.:
In the case of Ginny, he runs up to her and throws his wand aside and mutters desperately "please wake up, please don't be dead"; then he grabs her by the shoulders and is desperately trying to wake her up (her head is lolling from side to side). Then later, he tries to pick her up off the ground and carry her to safety. If H/G ends up together, this whole scene has more romantic vibes and implications, IMO.

I don't have my books with me, but doesn't Harry touch Hermione's shoulder? Can't he not bear to look at her? And after realizing that she's alive hesitates to touch her. I think this screams more romantic than H/G's scene in CoS

For the two statements that "bolded", I wanted to say that one is a fairytale situation and the other is a real life situation. If JKR is trying to make the human emotions as real as possible, I think the second statement makes more sense that the first. I don't know if you have a preference between the two statements or you just believe that in either cases the unrealized feelings should be shown, but I like the second one. Therefore, had Hermione died perhaps Harry would have realized his feelings for her.

Also, since JKR likes to twist things up, even if they are clichéd, perhaps she wanted to leave the declaration for later. Since she is developing H/Hr slowly, why have a sudden realization during someone being so close to death. This development is, of course, one of my preferences, so please do not judge all of my fellow Harmonians for my romantic ideas.

My intentions were to compare the two situations. In my real-life situation, the moment when my loved one was close to death, about to die, about to leave me forever, was the moment in which I realized the depth and breadth of my love.

In the fairytale situation, as well as in other non-fairytale novels and films, this scenario has been represented as such. I simply believe that it is a very common aspect of human nature to realize the fullness, or the mere existence, of your feelings for someone if the threat of them being taken from you is real and present. IMO, if Harry has been building or harboring romantic feelings for Hermione over the years, I believe that something of the sort would have been at least indicated in this scene. If he has underlying, unrealized feelings for Hermione, this is a situation that would seemingly bring them to the fore, in accordance with the nature of many human beings.

But, like I said before, this doesn't mean that H/Hr cannot develop later. I just think that this is a big indicator that Harry does not currently harbor any romantic feelings, unrealized or otherwise, toward Hermione.

IMO, if Harry has been building or harboring romantic feelings for Hermione over the years, I believe that something of the sort would have been at least indicated in this scene. If he has underlying, unrealized feelings for Hermione, this is a situation that would seemingly bring them to the fore, in accordance with the nature of many human beings.

But, like I said before, this doesn't mean that H/Hr cannot develop later. I just think that this is a big indicator that Harry does not currently harbor any romantic feelings, unrealized or otherwise, toward Hermione.

See this is the thing: some of us Harmonians believe that Harry is starting to subconsciously develop feelings for Hermione. Meaning in the Order of the Phoenix book. Not that he's had them for years. And for me these feelings are simply "like" and not love.

Well, I'm a newcomer and u lot look as if u've studied the love life in Hogwarts as if it's ur university degree or smthg. Personally I think Harry and Cho make a good couple. Yeah Cho's kinda whines a lot but she has a point I mean her boyfriend died, if anybody watches Eastenders it's like Jamie and Sonia. Anyway I think it would be boring if all the Main characters in the book get together I think Ron, Hermione and Harry should all be hooked up w/ people who have more minor roles. like Hermione w/ Ernie or smthg. Ron w/ Luna or Lavender or somebody. Harry with Cho if not then Ginny. I think H/Hr could be a possibility too though, more so than Hr/R anyway.
Sorry if I sound ignorant, but could somebody remind me who Fleur is? I've been trying to remember who she is but I can't! I've read all the books but it's been 4-5 years since I read the first 3 and I don't have the books I checked them out from the library so could somebody help me out with this? Cheers

Fleur is the French part veela chick that Ron went gaga over because she was hot. To put it bluntly. :eyebrows: Gabrielle is her little sister. Fleur is currently seeing Bill, the older, pretty good looking, Weasley brother.

Ok hello everyone,
I'm a disagree with you. What a surprise. :D If indeed Harry was developing feelings for Hermione and they weren't fully fledged yet I'm sure they would have shown. Hypothetically speaking, well not really hypothetical, but anyway, they're in the DoM, Hermione goes down, Harry sees this. If he were falling for her wouldn't you think he'd at least say "You can't leave me yet"? I mean, all he said was "It's my fault if she's dead" And indeed it would be his fault if she was dead. I don't see how this is romantic. If she died he led her to her death. It wasn;t like they were walking down the street and some drive-by happened and she took a bullet for him. Indeed the DoM scene was Harryu's fault
Ok two things
1)
If he were falling for her wouldn't you think he'd at least say "You can't leave me yet"?
You can't know that, considering Harry's age, he is fairly new to all these feelings of love and romance so he has no idea that he has feelings for Hermione and when she dies he imediately fears the worst, 'she's dead' i mean we didn't see Neville get all emotional, if there was a chance that she was dead he would have at least have lost his head slightly, we all know what Nevilles like. But no he checked her pulse imediately and realized straight away that she was alive, i mean think what would have happened had Neville not been there, it might have taken Harry a few minutes to think about checking her pulse, he was in such a state about it. If Neville wasn't there who knows what Harry could have gone on to think. Also because Harry is still unaware of his feelings for Hermione (if he has any) then its not suprising that he didn't suddenly declare his love for her, although now that he knows that he came very close to losing Hermione and when he's had time to think about it he will realize what his life would have been like without her, and maybe from there he will begin to realizes his feelings.

2)
indeed it would be his fault if she was dead. I don't see how this is romantic. If she died he led her to her death. It wasn;t like they were walking down the street and some drive-by happened and she took a bullet for him. Indeed the DoM scene was Harryu's fault
Ok and its not like Harry held a gun to Hermione's head and forced her to go to the department of mysteries with her, she chose to come knowing excactly what she was walking into, and like iv said before she had more to fear from Voldemort than the others, because she is muggle-born, i'm sure Voldemort and the Deatheaters would have loved to have tortured her, yet she still wishes to go with Harry, she certainly thinks a lot about him to practically be willing to walk to her doom, as i'm sure she is convinced she's doing.

One thing, Buckbeak, if I may. While I understand how you came to your interpretation, please do not assume that I "obviously" meant to insult DaveyDee. It was not my intention to insult him; I don't hate him; and I'm not angry with him. We're just talking past each other instead of to each other; and it's very easy to come across the wrong way (and I certainly share in the blame for it). Like I said, it's an occupational hazard in a scenario like this.
Ok sorry if it sounded like i was acusing you of hating Daveydee, that wasn't what i meant, i guess its differecult to really say something with out it being interpreted a different way when its being written as you so ironically found out :) .
Anyway your posts are great BlackKnight86 and also Nia and Turambar with the Frodo/Harry connection well done.
Oh and FlyingPhoenix as always you amaze me how you always have an answer to eveything a R/Hr shipper comes up with, pure genius.

Oh and :welcome: harryandchopotter, i love Sonia and Jamies relationship by the way, sad that he died

Now I see this is really a new topic for itself. I think I quote canon now.

First COS:

"Ginny!" Harry muttered, sprinting to her and dropping to his kneees. "Ginny!Don't be dead! Please don't be dead!" He flung his wand aside, grabbed Ginny's shoulders and turned her over Her face was white as marble, and as cold, yet her eyes were closed, so she wasn't Petrified. But then she must...
"Ginny, please wake up," Harry muttered desperately, shaking her. Ginny's head lolled hopelessly from side to side....

OotP:

"Well done, Ha-"
But the DE Hermione had just struck dumb made a sudden slashing movement with his wand; a streak of what looked like purple flame passed right across Hermione's chest. She gave a tiny "Oh!" as though of surprise and crumpled on the floor, where she lay motionless. "HERMIONE!"
Harry fell to his knees beside her as Neville crawled rapidly towards her from the desk, his wand held up in front of him. The DE kicked out hard at Neville's head as he emerged - his foot broke Neville's wand in two and connected with his face. Neville gave a howl of pain and recoiled, clutching his mouth and nose. Harry twisted around, his own wand held high, and saw that the DE had ripped off his mask and was pointing his wand directly at Harry, who recognised the long, pale, twisted face from the Daily Phrophet: Antoin Dolohov, the wizard who had murdered the Prewetts.
Dolohov grinned. With his free hand, he pointed from the prophecy still clutched in Harry's hand, to himself, then at Hermione. Though he could no longer speak, his meaning could not have been clearer. Give me the prophecy, or you get the same as her...
"Like you won't kill us all anyway, the moment I hand it over!" said Harry.
A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly: he had one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, its my fault if she's dead...
"Whaddever you do, Harry," said Neville fiercely from under the desk, lowering his hands to show a clearly broken nose and blood pouring down his mouth and chin, "Don'd gib it to him!"
Then there was a crash outside the door and Dolohov looked over his shoulder - the baby-headed DE had appeared in the doorway, his head bawling, his great fists still flailing uncontrollably at everything around him. Harry seized his chance: "PETRIFICUS TOTALUS!"
The spell hit Dolohov before he could block it and he toppled forwards across hos comrade, both of them rigid as boards and unable to move an inch."Hermione" Harry said at once, shaking her as the baby-headed DE blundered out of sight again. "Hermione, wake up..." "Whaddid he do to her?" said Neville, crawling out from under the desk to kneel at her other side, bllod streaming from his rapidly swelling nose.
"I dunno.."
Neville groped for Hermione's wrist.
"Dat's a pulse, Harry, I'b sure id is."
Such a powerful wave of relief swept through Harry that for a moment he felt light-headed.
"She's alive?"
"Yeah, I dink so."

Now thats interesting isn't it? Now I can start I suppose.
You see OotP scene is alot longer as the COS one and a lot more detail whats happens aside. Why? First this detail and long description suggest that suddenly everything is a lot slower as before. Harry don't feel a thing nothing. From the moment Hermione fells till he hears "She's alive!" what we know he is in panic thats what he feels nothing more. He isn't able to look at her, not able to move away. He just knee there and watch how the DE hit Neville than how this one want the prophecy.
Than only than Harry get slowly Hermione could be dead. He is fully in panic. He can't even say it. After he realise she could be dead he don't say a word or a whole sentence anymore.
Its interesting how JKR write it and I'm sure what I now say is not that far fretched but its look as if JKR avoid Harry. Before this was Neville highly uninteresting in DoM but suddenly we get an exact description what he do, how he do and over all how its looks. Its very much in detail everything from Neville, to the DE till the Baby-DE but Harry or Hermione are not detail descript.
She avoid it if you want you can say its interruption in a way.
But anyway this scene, this shock last longer very much longer as the one about Ginny.
There he has free hands, free time no DE's around. Nobody is around to get away his attention. Riddle give him enough time.
But in OotP there are DE's around and Neville who do cut Harrys thoughts.
About COS Harry thought before that Ginny is dead, before he even run into the chamber. But in OotP Hermione was very much alive as they came into the DoM.
Why didn't Harry say in COS "Its my fault if she's dead?" Simple because its not his fault he had at this time not to blame himself.
What Harry did only seconds before Hermione fells in OotP.

I dud underline the things which I do think is avoiding Harry in this scene. To that we can add that even as Hermione was not awake she did rescue them at this moment. It was because of her that the baby-DE did appear at this time.

I simply believe that it is a very common aspect of human nature to realize the fullness, or the mere existence, of your feelings for someone if the threat of them being taken from you is real and present. IMO, if Harry has been building or harboring romantic feelings for Hermione over the years, I believe that something of the sort would have been at least indicated in this scene. If he has underlying, unrealized feelings for Hermione, this is a situation that would seemingly bring them to the fore, in accordance with the nature of many human beings.

Not neccessary, not if you are first in shock and in panic. You can't think straight what you do is to try and to get it what did happen at this moment and not try to get how much you love somebody. You try to understand and not to discover.

Okay, say Harry had deep underlying romantic feelings for Hermione, say he couldn't think straight once he saw her hit the ground. He was in shock. Then why, oh why did he not say "Hermione could have died. It was all my fault that she got hurt. I care for her too much and I won't ever let what happened to her happen again" later? When indeed she got better and they were saved?

If indeed he has underlying feelings then why didn't they surface. She was near death. That should have at least caused him to recognise some feelings for her. I mean, every day could be their last and in the DoM it sure felt that way. Why hasn't he owned up to his feelings? Why hasn't she? The fact of the matter is, not once was there a mention of romantic feelings. Not once is there an exchange of a glance, a hug, a mere smile between the two.

Maybe the dead of Sirius came between this?

Its seems you or many don't believe that you don't think straight in such a situation?
Right, I try and tell you a little story. Once as I did sit in a car and father did drive. This was a normal drive so looked through the windows and was listening music till suddenly the car get slower and slower. I didn't get suspicious till I asked "Why do we hold?" and looked to him. Guess what? He wasn't anymore conscious. At this moment he could have been dead, he could have been a heartattack or anything else. So I was in a way of shock but still clear in my mind to just to do something. I did stop the car fully than slapped him into his face. I was in luck he seems just have fainted. But still what if I did the wrong ding? I didn't thought I didn't think "My what do I now!" I just did.
So you don't think straight anymore and the time is like an eternity.

By the way it wasn't anything serious but still its hit you very much if you don't expect this.

Welcome harryandchopotter, you will soon find that everything here is heavily debated.
Well, I'm a newcomer and u lot look as if u've studied the love life in Hogwarts as if it's ur university degree or smthg. Personally I think Harry and Cho make a good couple. Yeah Cho's kinda whines a lot but she has a point I mean her boyfriend died, if anybody watches Eastenders it's like Jamie and Sonia. Anyway I think it would be boring if all the Main characters in the book get together I think Ron, Hermione and Harry should all be hooked up w/ people who have more minor roles. like Hermione w/ Ernie or smthg. Ron w/ Luna or Lavender or somebody. Harry with Cho if not then Ginny. I think H/Hr could be a possibility too though, more so than Hr/R anyway.
Sorry if I sound ignorant, but could somebody remind me who Fleur is? I've been trying to remember who she is but I can't! I've read all the books but it's been 4-5 years since I read the first 3 and I don't have the books I checked them out from the library so could somebody help me out with this? CheersI doubt that Harry will get back together with Cho. At the end of OotP he realizes that his feelings for her are over as she walks past Harry in the train. Order of the Phoenix, Scholastic Version, Chapter 38: The Second War Begins, pg.865: Harry looked around. Cho was passing, accompanied by Marietta Edgecombe, who was wearing a balaclava. His and Cho's eyes met for a moment. Cho blushed and kept walking. Harry looked back down at the chessboard just in time to see one of his pawns chased off its square by Ron's knight. "What's----er---going on with you and her anyway?" Ron asked quietly. "Nothing," said Harry truthfully. "I---er---heard she's going out with someone else now," said Hermione tentatively. Harry was surprised to find that this information did not hurt at all. Wanting to impress Cho seemed to belong to a past that was no longer quite connected with him.

Hullo!

Well, I'll try to forget for a moment our healthy (I still believe it is) debate about the ships and ask a question. I'd really like you all to be honest about this. I'm assuming that everybody here is a great JKR fan, after all, we spend a great part of our day discussing our views on her work (I wonder how much time she actually spends lately writing the books - I hope is at least the same that we spend discussing it here). Please try putting your shipping tendencies aside (as hard as this may sound):

When do you think Harry will find his true love? (Book 6? Book 7? In the beginning or in the end?)

My answer would be: I believe that we will have some great clues (and possibly red herrings to mislead us) in Book 6, but Harry will only realize that he "found his true love" in the beginning or middle of book 7. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if JKR only presented the *lucky girl* during the final battle, as a sudden realization of love... yeah, that would be some torture for us).

Now, having your answer in mind, do you truly believe it's fair to judge Harry's behavior towards Hermione's potential death in the fifth book? Knowing Rowling's work as we do, do you truly believe it's possible for the protagonist of the story to find his true love in book 5? Do you realize that if Harry really discovered that he had been in love with Hermione for all the time, all the opposing ships would sink? How likely does that seem to you?

I believe Jo Rowling is pretty aware of the ships. And she likes it. She is going to prolong our "war" as much as she can.

And I honestly believe that one of us is right (it might be Harmony, Heron, Chocolate or Heron AND Chocolate). I'm not going to be arrogant here and say that other ships or even OBHWF could never happen. Because it can (I really don't like the idea, but anyway...). Up until now, I'm not defending my ship. I'm just asking for you to consider what you're implying - and how applicable to the pattern of the books this is. Harry was not supposed to find his true love in book 5 (and possibly not even in book 6). On the other hand, I think that *IF* R/H really happens, it's pretty believable that it might happen sooner - hopefully JKR would do it for a great reason - this could possibly help Harry in his journey in some way.

But, again, I honestly believe that Harry (the main character) is only going to find his love in the end of the series (possibly in the last book). Suppose it was Ginny the one that almost died at his side in the MoM scene… and he felt terrible and guilty about it, but he did not realized his love for her… Would you think it couldn't happen afterwards?

I wouldn’t.

I hope you could get my message.


EDIT: Sorry if this post is a bit "old". I've seen you've been talking about Ginny. The thing is... I've been replying this at work (trying to hide it from my hideous boss), so, I can't really read the thread all the time. When I get at home, I'll probably edit this. See ya.

Than only than Harry get slowly Hermione could be dead. He is fully in panic. He can't even say it. After he realise she could be dead he don't say a word or a whole sentence anymore.
He does, in fact, have enough sense or instinct or something left in him to realize that he needs to do something about the DeathEater. He does Petrify him, after all. I'm not saying that he isn't in a panic or that he is able to think straight -- I'm just saying that he is cognizant enough of the surroundings and what is happening elsewhere to get himself together enough to petrify Dolohov.


As far as the "When will Harry find love" question, I must say that I am still wondering if Harry will be coupled with someone in the end. If so, then I believe that it will happen toward the end of book 6 or in book 7. However, I'm not trying to suggest that the moment when Hermione is hit in the DOM should be a big revelation. All I'm saying is that there is no inkling of anything deeper than what we already know -- they are best friends. He reacts the way many people would, I suspect, if something like that happened to their best friend. It is my opinion that if, as some H/Hr shippers say, Harry has feelings developing for Hermione that are not realized as yet by him, this would be a scene in which he would at least come to a bit of that realization. Not that he would take her in his arms and say, Oh, Hermione, I love you, please don't leave me this way, I'll die without you...
I just think that there would be something else besides the whine of panic, the don't let her be dead it's my fault if she's dead, and the wave of relief right before he goes off to save his other friends. Maybe after the thing is over, his thoughts would turn back to the DOM, seeing Hermione unconscious on the floor, Ron being attacked by the brains, Sirius falling through the veil...I don't know. Just something more to it, if indeed Harry has unrealized feelings for Hermione.

But that's all for me for today. Great posts, everyone :clap:

You can't know that, considering Harry's age, he is fairly new to all these feelings of love and romance so he has no idea that he has feelings for Hermione and when she dies he imediately fears the worst, 'she's dead' i mean we didn't see Neville get all emotional, if there was a chance that she was dead he would have at least have lost his head slightly, we all know what Nevilles like. But no he checked her pulse imediately and realized straight away that she was alive, i mean think what would have happened had Neville not been there, it might have taken Harry a few minutes to think about checking her pulse, he was in such a state about it. If Neville wasn't there who knows what Harry could have gone on to think. Also because Harry is still unaware of his feelings for Hermione (if he has any) then its not suprising that he didn't suddenly declare his love for her, although now that he knows that he came very close to losing Hermione and when he's had time to think about it he will realize what his life would have been like without her, and maybe from there he will begin to realizes his feelings.
I agree about the fact that Harry's age, maturity, and hidden feelings may not allow him to express any sort of "love" except hoping that Hermione wasn't dead. This, I don't think, proves a point either way though, he could like her and not think that the situation was appropriate for professing love, or he could simply like her as a friend and care for her life or death.Ok and its not like Harry held a gun to Hermione's head and forced her to go to the department of mysteries with her, she chose to come knowing excactly what she was walking into, and like iv said before she had more to fear from Voldemort than the others, because she is muggle-born, i'm sure Voldemort and the Deatheaters would have loved to have tortured her, yet she still wishes to go with Harry, she certainly thinks a lot about him to practically be willing to walk to her doom, as i'm sure she is convinced she's doing.
Definitley, Hermione went on her own, as she has before, not because Harry made her, but more because she wanted to be involved, she thought that she might be needed, and she just cares for Harry's wellbeing and is almost certainly better off with Hermione's help that on his own.Now thats interesting isn't it? Now I can start I suppose.
I agree, nice quotes, well underlined and such.You see OotP scene is alot longer as the COS one and a lot more detail whats happens aside. Why? First this detail and long description suggest that suddenly everything is a lot slower as before. Harry don't feel a thing nothing. From the moment Hermione fells till he hears "She's alive!" what we know he is in panic thats what he feels nothing more. He isn't able to look at her, not able to move away. He just knee there and watch how the DE hit Neville than how this one want the prophecy.Although this quote is obviously more in depth and longer, I don't feel that that makes the scene happen any slower, I simply feel that he is overwhelmed with the situation and all that he can do is sit there in despair. I think that the situation just hit Harry hard, he cares for Hermione, he wants to live and he is in deathly danger, there is a DE quite capable of killing threatening to kill one of his best friends (Hermione). Obviously Harry is upset at this and he just kind of sits there for a few seconds.Than only than Harry get slowly Hermione could be dead. He is fully in panic. He can't even say it. After he realise she could be dead he don't say a word or a whole sentence anymoreThis, as I said above, simply stuns him, so I am pretty sure that we agree on this point.Its interesting how JKR write it and I'm sure what I now say is not that far fretched but its look as if JKR avoid Harry. Before this was Neville highly uninteresting in DoM but suddenly we get an exact description what he do, how he do and over all how its looks. Its very much in detail everything from Neville, to the DE till the Baby-DE but Harry or Hermione are not detail descript.
I agree that there is an unuasual amount of information about Neville compared to that of Harry and Hermione considering that the main action should be happening between Harry and Hermione (as Neville isn't really doing anything but crawling for cover while Harry is holding the most important thing in this book in his hand and one of his best friends is laying on the ground possibly dead).But anyway this scene, this shock last longer very much longer as the one about Ginny.
There he has free hands, free time no DE's around. Nobody is around to get away his attention. Riddle give him enough time.
But in OotP there are DE's around and Neville who do cut Harrys thoughts.
About COS Harry thought before that Ginny is dead, before he even run into the chamber. But in OotP Hermione was very much alive as they came into the DoM.
Why didn't Harry say in COS "Its my fault if she's dead?" Simple because its not his fault he had at this time not to blame himself.
What Harry did only seconds before Hermione fells in OotP.

I dud underline the things which I do think is avoiding Harry in this scene. To that we can add that even as Hermione was not awake she did rescue them at this moment. It was because of her that the baby-DE did appear at this time.
I do slightly agree because he doesn't say that about Ginny, but Harry in no way jeopardised Ginny's life in CoS, he was at no fault and was simply going to save her because she is his best friend's sister, a good person, and a victim of evil. Hermione on the other hand (though I said above that it is her fault if she dies because she went voluntarily, but she still is with Harry and he may think that he should be able to protect her) isn't as unprotected as Ginny and therefore is a preventable injury (at least more so than Ginny).So you don't think straight anymore and the time is like an eternity.
This I feel helps to explain my above point about how time wasn't slowed down, it just oh I don't know, pauses.......I will think more about this and edit later.

When do you think Harry will find his true love? (Book 6? Book 7? In the beginning or in the end?)

My answer would be: Harry find or realise his "love" at the middle or the end of book6 but don't know if this girl like him or rather "love" him back.
This say till book7 there are still two ships possibile that say H/HR and R/Hr.
In book7 we get to know who she likes.
But in book5 did Harrys feeling change like Grace said into liking and in book6 he will become aware of this.

When do you think Harry will find his true love? (Book 6? Book 7? In the beginning or in the end?)

I quite agree that JK probably takes great pleaure in observing the great debate. My own feeling is that the resolution will come in Book 7 from the point of view of the characters, but that we, the readers will have a much clearer picture by the end of Book 6.

You see OotP scene is alot longer as the COS one and a lot more detail whats happens aside. Why? First this detail and long description suggest that suddenly everything is a lot slower as before. Harry don't feel a thing nothing. From the moment Hermione fells till he hears "She's alive!" what we know he is in panic thats what he feels nothing more.

Are you suggesting that all this is happening in slow motion in Harry's point of view? I think that because Neville and the deatheater happen to be involved, there is a lot more details to write. As for the length of the scene where Hermione almost "dies", a whole chapter is devoted to Ginny's rescue and we get such strong reactions from Harry for a girl he hardly knows.

Why didn't Harry say in COS "Its my fault if she's dead?" Simple because its not his fault he had at this time not to blame himself.
What Harry did only seconds before Hermione fells in OotP.

That's true, but it also, IMO, is not an indicator of romantic feelings towards Hermione, if his feelings are of guilt, "it's my fault". He also mentions a few pages back in that chapter that if anything happens to his friends, it will be his fault. He feels guilty.[/INDENT]

A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly: he had one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, its my fault if she's dead...

He also has a similar reaction to Cedric's death. He's afraid to look at Cedric, knowing what he will see, in Gof. Again, not an indicator of romance.

Ginny!" Harry muttered, sprinting to her and dropping to his kneees. "Ginny!Don't be dead! Please don't be dead!" He flung his wand aside, grabbed Ginny's shoulders and turned her over Her face was white as marble, and as cold, yet her eyes were closed, so she wasn't Petrified. But then she must...
"Ginny, please wake up," Harry muttered desperately, shaking her. Ginny's head lolled hopelessly from side to side....

Hermione is one of Harry's best friends, but these are powerful emotions for a girl he hardly knows! Why would JKR write such a powerful scene?

About COS Harry thought before that Ginny is dead, before he even run into the chamber. But in OotP Hermione was very much alive as they came into the DoM.

Harry wasn't sure if Ginny was alive or dead and he has foreknowledge that Ginny could be either dead or seriously injured and he still is has such strong reactions, shaking her desperately while her head lols from side to side (poor Ginny).

I quite agree that JK probably takes great pleaure in observing the great debate. My own feeling is that the resolution will come in Book 7 from the point of view of the characters, but that we, the readers will have a much clearer picture by the end of Book 6.Well put, the general public will be slanted towards one side, though JKR might still surprise us, but the end of 6. There will of course still be room for discussion here, even after 6.

Sorry to change the subject but...
I just read a bit of the H/Hr files which i nabbed, i think from Babymars' signiture. Anyway i like how one person (can't remember who sorry) compares Harry and Ron to Krum. Hermione is somewhat attracted to Krum right? well IMO Krum is more like Harry than Ron, so Hermione's ideal guy is one who is like Harry.

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- she wasn't the person Harry would missed the most
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Quote:
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- there was less laughter when he's w/ her. In plain speaking, she's boring.
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Old canon. After OOTP I daresay that Hermione would have been the one he missed most. After all Ron is missing for a large portion of this book and it appears that Harry hardly notices. And the rhyme actually says "we've taken what you'll sorely miss". "Missed the most" is Dobby's interpretation. There are many things I would sorely miss but none of them are necessarily what I would miss the most.

Its similar to how its always claimed that Harry thinks Hermione is ugly yet we have 2 separate canon examples where JKR completely refutes this, yet people will persist in stating it as fact.

[quote=buckbeak] Sorry to change the subject but...
I just read a bit of the H/Hr files which i nabbed, i think from Babymars' signiture. Anyway I like how one person (can't remember who sorry) compares Harry and Ron to Krum. Hermione is somewhat attracted to Krum right? well IMO Krum is more like Harry than Ron, so Hermione's ideal guy is one who is like Harry.

What's even more interesting is that up until OOTP we only had minimal information about Cho to go on. Dark hair/eyes, Smart, Pretty, Petite, (in POA she's described as being a head shorter than Harry who is small for his age), and in GOF she's nominally supportive of Harry. . .she doesn't wear a badge "Support Cedric Diggory" badge even though she's dating the guy. Harry was heartened by this. Hermione has Dark hair and eyes, smart, pretty (GOF), petite (described as being near Harry 's height in POA) and is very supportive of Harry in all the books. Even supporting him over the guy she's dating. Its not until Harry learns more about Cho in OOTP that both he and the readers discover thats where the similarities end. Cho is a teenaged girl. Hermione more of an old soul

Are you suggesting that all this is happening in slow motion in Harry's point of view? I think that because Neville and the deatheater happen to be involved, there is a lot more details to write. As for the length of the scene where Hermione almost "dies", a whole chapter is devoted to Ginny's rescue and we get such strong reactions from Harry for a girl he hardly knows.

In a way its slow motion. Its appears like that.
Uhm not Ginnys rescue rather to fight Riddle because its says "The heir of Slytherin!" and not "Rescue of Ginny!"


That's true, but it also, IMO, is not an indicator of romantic feelings towards Hermione, if his feelings are of guilt, "it's my fault". He also mentions a few pages back in that chapter that if anything happens to his friends, it will be his fault. He feels guilty.[/
Thats why I said Harry don't think anymore straight because he has that in mind what he already has. 1) Hermione could be dead , he see it. 2) its his fault, He did realise it already before she fell.

He also has a similar reaction to Cedric's death. He's afraid to look at Cedric, knowing what he will see, in Gof. Again, not an indicator of romance.

Such a scene isn't suppose to be romantic. Harry did stare into Cedrics dead face a long time before someone(wormtail) pull him away. So it was not similar.

Hermione is one of Harry's best friends, but these are powerful emotions for a girl he hardly knows! Why would JKR write such a powerful scene?

First Harry did already before he come into the chamber imagine how it would be for the Weasley's. He saw them and they are his favouriet family. So as he did find her. He did think maybe there is a chance but as he was kneeling there he wanted her to be alive.
By the way its the very first time Harry see a nearly dead person.
After that comes Cedrics dead and than Hermione.

He also has a similar reaction to Cedric's death. He's afraid to look at Cedric, knowing what he will see, in Gof. Again, not an indicator of romance.This is also true and a point that I didn't think of.....nice!Hermione is one of Harry's best friends, but these are powerful emotions for a girl he hardly knows! Why would JKR write such a powerful scene?
I am afraid that I only slightly agree with this because he was also extremely distraut over Cedric's death and he didn't know Cedric at all either. Also, Ginny happened to be Harry's best friend's sister. I am guessing that pretty much any death that happens right in front of him is going to have a prefound affect on him.I just read a bit of the H/Hr files which i nabbed, i think from Babymars' signiture. Anyway i like how one person (can't remember who sorry) compares Harry and Ron to Krum. Hermione is somewhat attracted to Krum right? well IMO Krum is more like Harry than Ron, so Hermione's ideal guy is one who is like Harry.This may however fall into the problem that it doesn't seem that Hermione has extremely strong feelings for Krum (I mean we hardly ever hear about their relationship anymore). Plus, even if they are like, maybe Hermione wants a change.....I am not disagreeing with your stance, I am only disagreeing on whether or not it is a good thing.

Great posts, all, and an awesome input from Harmony ;) !!! Way behind and still planning to comment on Frodo/Harry. Really nice to see Turambar, lleyki & Hawk back here on the forum [as well as DD & AK over there...].

Just a quick note re: Harry and Hermione's near-death experience at DoM:
[Quote:]
Original post by Mad-I Moody:
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I simply believe that it is a very common aspect of human nature to realize the fullness, or the mere existence, of your feelings for someone if the threat of them being taken from you is real and present. IMO, if Harry has been building or harboring romantic feelings for Hermione over the years, I believe that something of the sort would have been at least indicated in this scene. If he has underlying, unrealized feelings for Hermione, this is a situation that would seemingly bring them to the fore, in accordance with the nature of many human beings.
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Flying Phoenix
Not neccessary, not if you are first in shock and in panic. You can't think straight what you do is to try and to get it what did happen at this moment and not try to get how much you love somebody. You try to understand and not to discover.

For me, FP has the right of it. For certain, persons vary, but I think it is fairly common to be in shock and not fully responsive emotionally at this time. This is often the only way to cope [denial, shock, deadened affect] in the moment and perhaps even for weeks, months, or years later. Therefore, whilst Harry's response may have seemed less than others might have expected, and could even be viewed as cold, yet to me I think FP put it very well indeed. Harry literally could not imagine a world where Hermione was dead and he was beginning to shut down emotionally at that moment.

To me Harry's reaction is the most realistic thing about this entire DoM near-death scene. Harry does not and probably cannot deal with all the implications of her death or even her near-death at this time, nor immediately thereafter...and particularly not when having to try to come to terms with what Sirius meant to him, since Sirius did die. The only thing Harry could begin to grasp at the moment Hermione fell was the anger and blame he immediately began to direct at himself. It's so much more convenient to deal with anger than pain, isn't it? I found the scene in DD's office extremely realistic as well re: tendency to feel misplaced anger at self rather than confront pain and loss. Even though we may not all verbalise as Harry did.

To my thinking, the true pain of losing Hermione [especially whilst Harry still feared she was dead] had by no means been realised at that point, not by a long shot. And thus all the buried feeling he may have for Hermione [and even just as his best friend he would suffer greatly later] would not necessarily have surfaced either, or Harry would not have managed to put one foot in front of the other. IMHO. Great posts all -- back in a bit...

Sorry to backtrack a bit when the DOM discussion is interesting but this is the first chance I've had to reply to Mad-I:

M-IM: Ron also values loyalty and bravery. And, I'm going to have to say that Hermione doesn't always seem to value "unpretentiousness," per se. I'm thinking specifically of the scene in OotP where she seems to be trying to get Harry and Ron to tell her what grades they got, and she goes on and on and on about it – not to mention tells them her good grade. Maybe that's not pretension, but it isn't exactly humility.

Me: Ron has been mostly loyal to his friends but not to the same extent Hermione has been to Harry. Hermione is particularly driven academically as we know but on the whole she's a very genuine person. One of my favourite scenes in OOTP is the one where they come out of the forest and Harry looks across at her and sees her looking the worst for wear and realises he must look as bad. JKR makes quite an issue of artificiality in regards to Cho and Umbridge in contrast.


M-IM: IMO, the powerful natures of Harry and Hermione work against a possible relationship between them. To have two such powerful individuals together – well, it seems as though that aspect of their personalities would really clash in a romantic relationship. Hermione and Harry are both leaders, yes, but they each have different opinions on how they should lead – and both of them want to be right.

Me: They are the only students they each know whom they could have an equal relationship with. So are you saying that each powerful centre should be with a lesser satellite? Hermione runs rough shod over Ron now and lacks respect for him: she would dominate and overshadow him as his romantic partner. Harry is actually the one boy Hermione admires and doesn't feel superior to. (Moreso than Krum though he's close to it). They each respect the other. We've seen plenty of examples of how Harry and Hermione work in together: they are both strong enough to be able to tell each other what to do when required or to defer to the other. I find it interesting that Harry is the only boy Hermione feels she can be vulnerable with to the extent of damsel-in-distress behaviour in the OOTP forest scenes.


M-IM: Harry couldn't go and tell Hermione about it afterwards because Hagrid specifically asks both of them to come. When he approaches them in the stands, he says Harry and Hermione's names, and then says "can yeh come with me?" Hagrid's problem is more important than Ron's big final because (a) Ron is currently being humiliated and it doesn't really seem like it is going to be a big, gut wrenching, tight game and (b) because Hagrid has been showing up all year with mysterious injuries. So what would be more important? Getting to the bottom of the Hagrid mystery and going with him after he implores them to come or watching your best friend, whether you care for him romantically or not, get slaughtered and teased? Which brings be to the "foul-weather friend" question. I don't think Hermione going with Hagrid has anything to do with her not wanting to support Ron. She can't do much for him from where she sits, and, as she says, she is sick of hearing the Slytherins sing Weasley is our King. On top of her inability to help Ron with this situation in any way, Hagrid, whom we all know Hermione cares for deeply (not in that way, guys), comes up to her (to Harry and her) and asks – pleads – with them to come with him. I just don't, and can't, see this as a moment when Hermione puts Ron aside and puts Harry first. If anything, she puts Ron aside for Hagrid, but I'm inclined to disagree with the connotations of that. On the surface, she chooses Hagrid over Ron – but with plenty of reasons that justify such a choice. And, when she is in the forest with Hagrid and Harry, she doesn't forget all about Ron: "So what is it you want Harry and Ron and me to do?"
Finally, when Hermione finally has to tell Ron that she and Harry missed most of the game, she stretches out her hand to him, saying "we didn't want to leave – we had to."

Me: So Hagrid asks both of them. What I find most interesting is that the thought never occurs to Harry for one second that Hermione might prefer to watch Ron play rather than be at his side in helping Hagrid. Hagrid asks but Harry could still have said, 'I'll go, you stay. We don't both have to go'. Harry is used to Hermione going off with him and leaving Ron behind. That's the simple fact.
I honestly don't get this attitude that she should run off while Ron is being teased. When has Hermione run away when Harry has been criticised in the past, such as when the school was against him before the First Task? She's supported him by sticking by him. That's what people who back a team at a game are called: supporters. True supporters don't slink off because their team is having a bad time and in this case it was more than just a team, she had two friends up there: Ron and Ginny. She didn't in fact slink off because of the jeers: she CHOSE (non-verbally) to go with Harry and Hagrid over staying and supporting Ron.
Clearly, if we look at how the scene could have been written, the author has passed up a golden opportunity for an R/Hr moment in favour of yet more H/Hr closeness and development. How is that good for R/Hr?
Consider for a moment this situation from two different angles a) she has romantic feelings for Ron and b) that she just considers Ron a friend. With b) it's logical: one of her friends is playing in the game but she choses to go with her other main friend to help another friend. But a) is not logical. Her 'sweetheart' is playing in the biggest match of his life, is under pressure and needs all the support he can get yet, without any protest, she trots off compliently with her 'platonic' friend to see what another friend wants when the 'platonic' friend is perfectly capable of finding out what's happening and telling her later. That's putting two friends before her 'sweetheart' who just happens to be involved in one of the most significant events (to him) he's been involved in ever at Hogwarts. And she doesn't say a WORD against leaving the game. It just doesn't make sense.
Yes she (and Harry) later feel bad about missing Ron's heroics but their concern is totally just on the level of friendship. This is the girl who, for example, was "stricken" and with eyes "shining with tears" in POA just at the thought that Harry might possibly chase after Sirius. For Ron she stretches out her hand. Why is her concern as a friend for Harry always more intense? And of course when Ron wins Hermione shows her excitement by smiling at him. Wow, hold her back. :rolleyes: This being the same girl who was dancing, hugging Parvati and screaming with joy when Harry's team beat Hufflepuff in PS and was focusing so hard on him that she didn't even notice Ron was fighting Draco under her seat. And that wasn't even a final.
Of course she tries to placate Ron, they were both nervous about breaking the news to him. But essentially they both have free will - they went with Hagrid.

Okay, finally got the book back.

"HERMIONE!"
Harry fell to his knees beside her-
That is the immediate reaction to her getting struck down, and it does help make that point that 'one minute you're talking to your friend and the next minute they're gone' which is what JKR said she was trying to get across with the last part of OotP. But this part probably has the most significance emotionally. He is obviously upset enough that he can no longer think rationally. He seems to have forgot that Dolohov was there, pointing his wand right at him, ready to kill. So the rest of the world has faded around him and all that exists is himself and Hermione. He forgot where he was, and what type of immediate mortal danger he was in and focused solely on Hermione. He was probably brought back to reality partially when Neville got kicked in the face and howled, but he was not entirely focused.
A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly. He had one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead. . . .

So he isn't 'thinking properly', and he's only partially focused on Dolohov even when he curses him into paralysis. But when has Harry ever not been able to think properly in just such a dangerous situation? Just a matter of minutes after Cedric died, during which time he watched Wormtail cut off his own hand, lost some blood himself, and witnessed the most feared wizard of all time being reborn. Not very much in the way of entertainment. Yet he kept his head, and was able to duel Voldemort and escape with his life and Cedric's body. In the Chamber, which, in my opinion, was probably the most dangerous situation he has ever been in. Just happen to look in the wrong direction and you're dead. And he see's Ginny lying there, and he tosses his wand aside, (not a very smart move), and tries to wake her. In fact, it's pretty similar to this, although there are several differences:
"Hermione," Harry said at once, shaking her as the baby-headed Death Eater blundered out of sight again. "Hermione, wake up. . . ."

notice, it says 'at once', which brings me back to my previous point, that he wasn't even focused on Dolohov, who was quite capable of killing him, he was still focused on her and immediately turned back to her as soon as he incapacitated Dolohov, as if he were just an annoyance getting between him and Hermione. But my point about the Chamber was that even though the danger there could have actually been considered greater, he didn't give in to panic, and was able to kill the Basilisk along with Riddles memory. He was able to put all his focus on Riddle, despite Ginny lying there slowly dying in front of him. So these reactions are definitely not the same.

Then we have this:
Neville groped for Hermione's wrist.
"Dat's a pulse, Harry, I'b sure id is. . . ."
Such a powerful wave of releif swept through Harry that for a moment he felt light-headed.
"She's alive?"
"Yeah, I dink so. . . ."
There was a pause in which Harry listened hard for the sounds of more footsteps...
Once he's sure she's alive, he feels quite relieved, and then his thoughts immediately shift back to the rest of the world, and the death eaters that are after them. Why is that? This is supposed to be the part where he has this 'great epiphany' about just how much she means to him, right? Well, either my version has a few lines missing, or that part didn't happen. He's avoiding it. He's avoiding thinking about it already, and at the moment he had plenty of other people to get out of there to distract him from it. Quite convenient, actually. And after Sirius dies, and he has the the weight of the world on his shoulders, he has even more excuse not to think about that particular incident in the DoM. But he'll eventually have to face it. And I think he might have had to face it in OotP, if Ron hadn't kept shushing Hermione everytime she tried bringing up Sirius. He isn't really following Dumbledore's previous advice from GoF, which is to talk about it with somebody sooner than later, and thus heal faster and more completely. Right now he's got a pretty ugly scar, and it's starting to fester. . .

Argh! It took me all day just to get that one post. I kept getting interupted. Oh well, I hope that made sense, at least in some way.

My answer would be: Harry find or realise his "love" at the middle or the end of book6 but don't know if this girl like him or rather "love" him back.
This say till book7 there are still two ships possibile that say H/HR and R/Hr.
In book7 we get to know who she likes.
But in book5 did Harrys feeling change like Grace said into liking and in book6 he will become aware of this.Hi FP!

You know, to be quite honest, I just saw some change in Harry's feelings in the train, when he realized that after Sirius' death, his infatuation with Cho was over. Just speculating here, but maybe he finally became aware that those superficial feelings he had for her were only related to her image, not for her true self. I think this will be a really important factor on the next girl he chooses :love:

In book 6, considering how hurt and angry he was because of his godfather's death, I think that it will take some time for him to notice the "love seed" there. On the other hand, in Ootp, Hermione's feelings were quite clear for me - that "fishy" line - "And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am, too", is one of my favorites. :rolleyes:

By the way, noddwyd, you didn't finish your post but it was definitely good :clap: . I can't wait to see it all!

I'd like to respond to your post noddwyd, but as it's only partly finished I can't. So with that said I'd like to veer the discussion off of R/H, H/G, H/H and ask what about Bill and Fleur or Snape and someone?

Hi All!

I wanted to do a quick comparison on the "deaths" and reactions and explain why Harry's reaction is unique to Ginny's "death" in the chamber.

Cedric: (casual acquaintance)
terrified of what he was about to see, he opened his stinging eyes. Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead. For a second that contained an eternity, Harry stared into Cedric's face, etc.

Ron: (Best Friend)
All the air seemed to vanish from Harry's lungs; he felt as though he were falling through the floor; his brain turned icy cold-Ron dead, no, it couldn't be-

Hermione: (Best Friend)
A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly. He had one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead...and then later, such a powerful wave of relief swept over Harry that he felt light-headed.

I think Hermione and Cedric's situations are somewhat similar in that they are both guilt-inducing experiences. Harry feels guilty and responsible for Cedric's death and feels guilty for bringing all of his friends to the Mom to rescue Sirius, hence his feelings of guilt in Hermione's case. Of course, he was only casual friends with Cedric, as compared to Hermione being one of his best friends.

The incident with Ron (Molly's boggart), shows how deeply Harry would be affected if anything happened to Ron. Ron is Harry's best friend and this reaction, as well as his reaction to Hermione's almost death is perfectly normal and understandable.

However in Ginny's case I see it as romantic foreshadowing.


Ginny: Not a close friend (at this point)
Cos, amer pg 295

It was probably the worst day of Harry's life. No afternoon every lasted as long as that one, etc.

Harry could see the sun sunking, blood-red, below the skyline. This was the worst he had ever felt.

"I'm going down there." He could not go, not now that they had found the entrance to the Chamber, not if there was even the faintest, slimmest, wildest chance that Ginny was still alive. "Me, too", said Ron.

page 307:

Ginny!" Harry muttered, sprinting to her and dropping to his knees. "Ginny!-Don't be dead!- Please don't be dead!" He flung his wand aside, grabbed Ginny's shoulders and turned her over. Her face was white as marble, and as cold, yet her eyes were closed, so she wasn't Petrified. But then she must...
"Ginny, please wake up," Harry muttered desperately, shaking her. Ginny's head lolled hopelessly from side to side....

"What do'you mean,- she won't wake? Harry said desperately. "She's not-she's not?"

So, these are the examples of Harry's reactions to death/almost dying. There is no reason, if Ginny is not Harry's love interest at the end of all the books, to have these sort of descriptions that Harry has for Ginny in Chamber of Secrets. He describes it twice, as the worst day of his life. He almost sounds like he is begging in the above situation, "please don't be dead" and he says it "desperately". He then shakes her so hard her head rolls from side to side.

Also, he has extremely angry reactions to Tom's making fun of Ginny. page 311:

Harry's fists were clenched, his nails digging into his palms. and later - anger was coursing through him, and it was an effort to keep his voice steady.

Again, these are extremely strong reactions that Harry is showing toward a girl he has barely spoken to, is Ron's little sister, and who happens to have a crush on him. But, if H/G happens, his reactions and emotions fit perfectly into the storyline, as readers can look back at this as one of the clues and foreshadowing to H/G. When they fly out of the chamber into the girls' bathroom, we get yet another Ron moment of shipping H/G: "Harry, I think Myrtle's grown fond of you! You've got competition, Ginny!"

Originally posted by Prongs, Sr.
He also has a similar reaction to Cedric's death. He's afraid to look at Cedric, knowing what he will see, in Gof. Again, not an indicator of romance.

Mad-I responded:
This is also true and a point that I didn't think of.....nice!


Not so true, not so nice--
Canon: GoF, Ch 32
Harry’s scar is blinding him with pain—

His wand slipped from his fingers as he put his hands over his face; his knees buckled; he was on the ground and he could see nothing at all; his head was about to split open.
From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, “Kill the spare!”
A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words into the night: “Avada Kedavra!”

A blast of green light blazed through Harry’s eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside him; the pain in his scar reached such a pitch that he retched, and then it diminished; terrified of what he was about to see, he opened his stinging eyes.
Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead.
For a second that contained an eternity, Harry stared into Cedric’s face at his open gray eyes, blank and expressionless as the windows of a deserted house, at his half-open mouth, which looked slightly surprised. And then, before Harry’s mind had accepted what he was seeing, before he could feel anything but numb disbelief, he felt himself being pulled to his feet.

An entirely different reaction, I’d say.
Just keeping the discussion on track. ;)

BTW, Thanks, Turambar and Flying Phoenix

Cheers!
Nia

Hi FP!

You know, to be quite honest, I just saw some change in Harry's feelings in the train, when he realized that after Sirius' death, his infatuation with Cho was over. Just speculating here, but maybe he finally became aware that those superficial feelings he had for her were only related to her image, not for her true self. I think this will be a really important factor on the next girl he chooses :love:

I'll agree. I think that Harry will be less superficial and more thoughtful as to who he falls for.

In book 6, considering how hurt and angry he was because of his godfather's death, I think that it will take some time for him to notice the "love seed" there.

Yup, I'll agree.

On the other hand, in Ootp, Hermione's feelings were quite clear for me - that "fishy" line - "And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am, too", is one of my favorites.

I don't think Hermione's feelings were quite clear at all actually. In my opinion, that line "And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am, too" isn't really anything spectacular. No clear signs of unrequited love or anything. In OotP nothing was clear, except say Harry and Cho being over for good.

:clap: Turambar, flyingphoenix, evaluna, Nia and anyone else I have missed

Nice posts to Mad I Moody and haycheng (included here because of neutral status).

Mad I Moody
IMO, the powerful natures of Harry and Hermione work against a possible relationship between them. To have two such powerful individuals together – well, it seems as though that aspect of their personalities would really clash in a romantic relationship. Hermione and Harry are both leaders, yes, but they each have different opinions on how they should lead – and both of them want to be right.
COS love Thread Warning: What follows is 100% the opinion of the author of this post and does not represent the opinions of The Cos Forums or the HMS Harmony.

I have never been a fan of one strong individual in a relationship and one weak theories. One dominate and one submissive. So I don’t see how 2 strong and powerful individuals can hurt a relationship. Plus I have seen in OotP that Harry and Hermione work together. Hermione steps back when Harry is the stronger and Harry steps back when the problem calls for Hermione’s strengths. Now in Harry and Hermione I see different strengths that complement each other. Separate they are powerful. Combined, they are unstoppable.

I can't understand this argument. Rita Skeeter is an unregistered Animagus, which is illegal. To smuggle her in to Hogwarts for a secret meeting would not only NOT be "easy," it would be dangerous, and unlikely that Rita would put her neck on the line with a risk like that. I don't think that JKR 'missed' an opportunity to write a R/Hr scene here – I think she took the opportunity to "flesh out" Harry and Cho's dynamic and to have Harry tell his story. Harry and Cho's dynamic is dependent on Harry meeting Hermione at the Three Broomsticks, which is, in turn, dependent on Hermione receiving the last minute owl that Rita can make it. This has to take place in hogsmeade because Harry has already made plans to be there, and it has to take place in hogsmeade because that is one place where Rita can walk around freely and not have to be "smuggled in" anywhere. These events all rely on each other – it isn't a randomly placed shipper or missed shipper moment

Yes, but Rita was all over Hogwarts and no one knew that she was that beetle so Rita could have snuck onto Hogwarts. After all Hermione didn’t tell. This is not as interesting to me as why people think that Ron was in Quiddich practice from 11:59 PM February 13th to 12:01 AM February 15th. I mean did Ron have no time at all to even talk to Hermione? And was Ron that busy that he couldn’t have gotten her a gift for Valentines Day? Seems to me that it was a missed opportunity for Hr/R. It would have been an interesting clue to notice that Hermione smelled unusual on Valentine’s Day. Or anytime after Christmas for that matter. But not one time do we hear of Hermione smelling unusual, not at the big game or anywhere else. And what is interesting is that on Valentine’s Day Luna is singing Weasley is Our King under her breath. Now Hermione would know that Ron was at practice. Gryffindor house would know that there was a practice that day, but how did Luna know? And it is very interesting that she is singing a song associated with Ron and Quiddich on Valentines Day. Seems like Luna was seeing what Ron was doing on Valentine’s Day.

Haycheng
Please, do not flame me because I predicted the death of Hermione(I realize both R/Hr and H/Hr will not be happy if Hermione died. However, there always a chance there, like it or not)

I won’t flame but I’ll give my thoughts on this and how it pertains to shipping for me. If Hermione dies and we see Harry with Ginny/Luna or anyone else I hope that they are paired up before the death of Hermione. Same thing for Hr/R(should Harry die) or even H/Hr (should Ron die). I’d like to see the pairings because of love and not because the one person was dead. So I could live with H/G as long as it happens before Hermione died and not after. To me that would be the same as saying, Harry and Hermione would have been great together so in order for H/G to happen I have to kill Hermione.
Fairydust
I think you're forgetting CoS scene where he ran staright to Ginny and cast his wand away to turn her over. Harry's reaction to that was "Don't be dead. Please don't be dead. Ginny, wake up. Please wake up" I don't have my book but that's the gist. Harry was panicky, I think, and he was desperate in that scene.

No. I didn’t forget it. In fact I looked at it and Cedric’s death quite closely and there is nothing written along the lines that Harry had such a wave of panic that he couldn’t think. I find it interesting that JKR WROTE it this way. And in Cos Harry is able to keep his head enough to notice that Tom Riddle hasn’t aged a day in 50 years. But what I’m saying is that JKR wrote it this way and I didn’t see anything close to this in the other times that Harry faced death. Now don’t forget that he blamed himself for Cedric’s death as well.

If your friend was say hit with a bullet or something and was so close to death, wouldn't you panic? Wouldn't you be scared? It's a normal reaction, I think, that Harry felt panic when he saw Hermione hit with the spell and knocked unconscious.

Not if I could save them by keeping my head. If there was a chance that they could be saved but it relied on me keeping a level head to get them to safety I don’t think that I would panic that much. Now it’s not that Harry is panicking that is interesting, its that it’s such a wave of panic that he can’t even think straight. This is not really in Harry’s character and that’s what kind of separates the Cos scene and the DOM scene.

Cheers!

Yes, but Rita was all over Hogwarts and no one knew that she was that beetle so Rita could have snuck onto Hogwarts. After all Hermione didn’t tell. This is not as interesting to me as why people think that Ron was in Quiddich practice from 11:59 PM February 13th to 12:01 AM February 15th. I mean did Ron have no time at all to even talk to Hermione? And was Ron that busy that he couldn’t have gotten her a gift for Valentines Day?

Seems to me that it was a missed opportunity for Hr/R. It would have been an interesting clue to notice that Hermione smelled unusual on Valentine’s Day. Or anytime after Christmas for that matter. But not one time do we hear of Hermione smelling unusual, not at the big game or anywhere else.


Exactly! It would have been the absolute perfect time to followup on his Christmas gift (I'm sure that Harry would have lent him the Map for a quick run into Hogsmeade) Besides he's a wizard isn't he? He could have transfigured some flowers for her. BUt nothing (and we would have heard about it if he had)

Nice posts Hawk, Noddwyd.
Noddwyd your post made me think about the impact on Hermione of the Dolohov attack. When Cedric was killed Hermione and Ron weren't around to witness it first hand. In the DOM both could have easily been killed rather than Sirius. They would appreciate (you would think) what Harry said about luck playing a part in his survival despite his skills.
Perhaps those experiences, plus Sirius' death and if Harry manages to tell them about the prophesy, could bring shipper issues to the surface in book six rather than seven. It's been brought home to them that they may not survive.

:clap: Turambar, flyingphoenix, evaluna, Nia and anyone else I have missed

Nice posts to Mad I Moody and haycheng (included here because of neutral status).

Mad I Moody

COS love Thread Warning: What follows is 100% the opinion of the author of this post and does not represent the opinions of The Cos Forums or the HMS Harmony.

I have never been a fan of one strong individual in a relationship and one weak theories. One dominate and one submissive. So I don’t see how 2 strong and powerful individuals can hurt a relationship. Plus I have seen in OotP that Harry and Hermione work together. Hermione steps back when Harry is the stronger and Harry steps back when the problem calls for Hermione’s strengths. Now in Harry and Hermione I see different strengths that complement each other. Separate they are powerful. Combined, they are unstoppable.

That saying reminds me of something I saw on the OC last week but that's another talk. Anyhoo, what I think Mad-I Moody's getting at is that two very strong willed individuals with very strong personalities and ideas clash. I wouldn't want to see a relationship where there is one very strong dominant person and one weak person. However, with two very strong people with very strong ideas and opinions something's got to give. With Harry and Hermione I can't see them giving to each other. Not without a lot of convincing and even then there'd be a little skepticism there. Does that make sense?


Yes, but Rita was all over Hogwarts and no one knew that she was that beetle so Rita could have snuck onto Hogwarts. After all Hermione didn’t tell. This is not as interesting to me as why people think that Ron was in Quiddich practice from 11:59 PM February 13th to 12:01 AM February 15th. I mean did Ron have no time at all to even talk to Hermione? And was Ron that busy that he couldn’t have gotten her a gift for Valentines Day? Seems to me that it was a missed opportunity for Hr/R. It would have been an interesting clue to notice that Hermione smelled unusual on Valentine’s Day. Or anytime after Christmas for that matter. But not one time do we hear of Hermione smelling unusual, not at the big game or anywhere else. And what is interesting is that on Valentine’s Day Luna is singing Weasley is Our King under her breath. Now Hermione would know that Ron was at practice. Gryffindor house would know that there was a practice that day, but how did Luna know? And it is very interesting that she is singing a song associated with Ron and Quiddich on Valentines Day. Seems like Luna was seeing what Ron was doing on Valentine’s Day.

The thing about the relationship of Ron and Hermione is that we don't really know about them. We only know what Harry sees. There are times where Ron and Hermione aren't together with Harry and those moments could be the moments where something romantic or whatnot happens between them. Maybe Ron gave her gift when they were on prefect duty? Maybe the perfume Ron got smelled bad so Hermioen didn't wear it. There're a lot of maybe's and none them can be answered until we hear it straight from JK's mouth or it comes from the next books.

I don't think that Luna actually knew that the Gryffindor's had quidditch practice either. Luna's very odd and could have probably just been singing the tune. Is there any other instance where she's singing Weasley is Our King?


Fairydust


No. I didn’t forget it. In fact I looked at it and Cedric’s death quite closely and there is nothing written along the lines that Harry had such a wave of panic that he couldn’t think. I find it interesting that JKR WROTE it this way. And in Cos Harry is able to keep his head enough to notice that Tom Riddle hasn’t aged a day in 50 years. But what I’m saying is that JKR wrote it this way and I didn’t see anything close to this in the other times that Harry faced death. Now don’t forget that he blamed himself for Cedric’s death as well.

Not if I could save them by keeping my head. If there was a chance that they could be saved but it relied on me keeping a level head to get them to safety I don’t think that I would panic that much. Now it’s not that Harry is panicking that is interesting, its that it’s such a wave of panic that he can’t even think straight. This is not really in Harry’s character and that’s what kind of separates the Cos scene and the DOM scene.

Cheers!

I can see your point.

EDIT: To H/G shippers and any others who'd like to respond: Doesn't anyone find it odd that at the moment where Ginny and Harry could have connected they were interrupted? I'm talking about the library scene and any other scene there may be. I haven't got my book with me so I can't remember if there are any others but yeah any ideas?

Posted by Fairydust
Anyhoo, what I think Mad-I Moody's getting at is that two very strong willed individuals with very strong personalities and ideas clash. I wouldn't want to see a relationship where there is one very strong dominant person and one weak person. However, with two very strong people with very strong ideas and opinions something's got to give. With Harry and Hermione I can't see them giving to each other. Not without a lot of convincing and even then there'd be a little skepticism there. Does that make sense?


The DOM sequence perfectly showcases how Harry and Hermione work well together despite their strong wills, strong personalities and ideas. They lead the group, they solve problems and each makes decisions as they go along, they initiate the escape from the DEs, they each use their skills to prevent harm to the other, they look out for each other.

Incredible posts all round, Harmony! And fellow travellers [haycheng, noddwyd, and all other neutral parties] Good job across the way, as well, though I disagree…;)

BTW great topic Turambar re: Frodo/Harry. Brilliant posts too on the DoM topic, Harmony, and noddwyd, that last post, equally so. This topic is for me at the heart of the series, and in many ways at the heart of ‘life, the universe, and everything’. A good journey, then, to all who enter here…


Frodo/Harry Parallels and Implications for Series’ End

Turambar
It really made me wonder whether JKR is planning to make things so bad for Harry that death is the only release. The light at the end of the tunnel is that, unlike for Frodo, there is the possibility of romantic love for Harry. For Frodo friendship love and loyalty, embodied by Sam, isn't ultimately enough.
Perhaps that romantic love could be the source of 'peace' for Harry in the end.

noddwyd
The Harry/Frodo parallel is very interesting. Frodo and Sauron were fighting on more than just the physical plane. There was the conflict within Frodo because of the ring slowly poisoning his mind. And you're right, it kept getting worse as he got closer to his goal. It as they say, the closer you get to the light at the end, the darker and more concentrated your shadow becomes behind you. And Frodo took some damage to his soul that could not be repaired in middle-earth…But I think what JKR wants to show through Harry, is that such wounds can be healed, not through the power of gods or the peace that death brings, but through the power of humanity, (which is too often uderestimated) and the light of love.

Turambar
I hope so Noddwyd.
With Tolkien healing after war takes the form of landscapes being renewed and communities re-energised but with a sense of older things being permanently lost. Sam is the one who gains family happiness, healing through humanity. The interesting thing is that at that stage Frodo is beyond the understanding of most others. With Harry, JKR has ensured that Hermione keeps pace with him, so far at least.
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Mad I Moody
I'm going to have to disagree a bit. I mean, I agree with the part about Frodo being beyond the understanding of most others. I don't, however, agree that Hermione necessarily "keeps pace" with Harry, not in the sense of understanding him in such a way that, once his long ordeal is over, he can finally be happy with her by his side (in a romantic sense). I see strong similarities between Harry and Frodo here, in that I believe that they are on journeys, accompanied by loyal, true, loving friends – but the journey ultimately comes down to just one – Harry/Frodo. His friends are there to support and care for him, to give him the love he so needs and desires, and they help him to find the strength he needs, but they ultimately cannot carry the "ring" for him, nor can they truly understand what it means to be a "ringbearer." That's my opinion, of course, and I certainly respect yours as well.

I think that either Harry’s powers or his accompanying responsibilities would place him beyond the understanding of most others, except that Harry can choose to give and receive love with others, and he can choose to include them in his journey and his battles if they are willing. It’s the connection that will bind him to others and maintain a level of human understanding , but the choice is his and will require that he be able to use his greatest gift to heal himself first. So that he can transform his darkness and reach out past it for human connection and love.

I see Harry’s internal battle against darkness being waged in tandem with his external battle against evil. And for the good of the world, I’m hoping he learns how this greatest power [love, life, or the Infinite Light – whatever one chooses to call it] can enable him to master his inner domain and therefore his outer, as well [=the world]. The esoteric saying is that if you save one life, you’ve saved the world. Harry’s one life he must save is his own, IMO. And Voldemort/Toms’s as well as their life force is bound. So his one life Harry must save is their own, thereby saving the world.

The task is seemingly impossible, as Harry must over self-hatred, hatred of Voldemort, and last but not least, Voldemort’s hatred of himself, Harry, and everyone else. But force [violence or any action motivated by hatred or negativity] will not overcome Voldemort or the external evil nexus of fear and hatred he represents. Per MLK [see DDtW’s sig :tu: or noddwyd’s prior post on last thread], darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that. How can Harry possibly love Voldemort? Let go of his hatred? Only when Harry understands the transformational and redemptive potential of the greatest and most mysterious of forces can he truly wield this force in such a way as to transform darkness into light, hate into love. First for himself and Voldemort/Tom, then [or rather, simultaneously] the world. Whilst I think Harry will require and receive many kinds of love from many people, I think his ultimate struggle will require a profound love between soulmates to bring Harry to this intrinsic, intuitive understanding of this greatest of all powers.

In part because the path of the few is solitary and sacrificial [more Frodo, solitary path to spiritual enlightenment in that the spiritual growth is not shared with others even if you are not physically isolated from them] and in part because the path of the many represents an esoterically complete union of souls [e.g.,~ yin/yang ], for both of these reasons I don’t favour a Frodo ending for Harry though I do see the other parallels. And that is precisely why -- Harry’s amazing gifts aside [which Frodo had not but about which Harry knows little to nothing currently] -- all else depends on Harry’s choices. I for one can only hope he chooses wisely and will be privately cheering him on.


…but Death is easier

[b]Earendil
The other alternative is, as you said, to find hope in love, and this is more likely because of the thematic foreshadowing we've been given in the form of the Mystery Room and Dumbledore's words about love being the only thing LV cannot understand.

Flying Phoenix
You put it very well thats where my fears lay that JKR is going to torture Harry more and more so that he discover that there are things which are indeed worst as dead that say to suffer. That say only one thing can let him go on and thats not to kill Voldemort.

Agreed. Death may seem the way to go. Though per FP, death is far worse for the survivours, to ref Elie Wiesel. Nonetheless the survivours have a responsibility to the living, in order to honour the memory and sacrifice of the dead. Lupin says as much to Harry. For Harry, this means he must live, IMO, or rather, he must choose life -- for himself and for the world as well. I think Harry’s death will come only if and when he chooses death over life, and IMO handing Voldemort his ultimate victory, a triumph of fear/hate [or in Harry’s case: despair ]over love & darkness over light.


...whilst Life is hard, but love shows The Way [to the Light]

Nia
Frodo is able to take on the task because he is untouched by evil or the corrupting effects of ambition and power. This innocence of his enables him (at least at the outset) to carry the ring farther than anyone else could have managed. In LOTR, then, Frodo could be said to be a Christ-like figure— giving up the comfort and love and peace of his beautiful home to bear the “sin of his world” to the edge of doom—Hell, if you will--bearing evil to its destruction for the salvation of his world—as Christ left his Kingdom in Heaven and bore upon Himself the sins of our world.

I believe that in Book Six, Harry will begin his own quest—one of self discovery--to unlock the secret of the power he possesses. And I don’t think the ultimate climax of the Harry Potter books will be the Gotterdammerung-like climax of LOTR, where all the forces of Hell are swallowed up in a massive conflagration of destruction. I think the climax will be a similar all-encompassing blast of creation and reconciliation. JKR has almost taken Harry’s personal angst as far as she can without it becoming melodramatic. As Frodo had to embrace death--to reconcile himself to it in order to complete his mission, I believe that Harry must embrace life and light and love.

Harry has already accepted the real possibility of his own death, he has already embraced death. We saw his resignation to death in PS/SS, CoS, GoF and OoP. Dying for Harry would be the easy way out, the coward’s way, because he doesn’t have to make any effort to die. Voldemort would gladly finish him off if he didn’t resist. The difficult thing for Harry will be to turn his mind from war and battles to understand the most powerful defense against the dark arts is already in his possession—that his victory will not be so much in the spells he can cast, but the fullness of his own heart.

Nia: Agree. Completely. It is the easy way out. In fact, I had discussion recently with someone that on many levels it seems Harry craves death [lure of the Veil], in part due to the pain and losses of his lifetime to date. Currently, if Harry could be assured his death would come about only after defeating Voldemort, he very well might choose to return in death to the eternal Light and the presence, the unconditional love, of those who have sacrificed for him [his parents, Sirius]. But Harry’s purpose , IMO, is more than defeating evil, which IMO will require that Harry love and transform himself [Voldemort/Tom] and the world. IMO Harry’s purpose is also to live, to continue to bring light from darkness. In other words to bring life from death in the world, [by first choosing life over death], as well as to bring love from hate in the world [by first choosing to love rather than hate]. This work doesn’t end, but rather the healing of the world [ingathering of the Light] is ongoing.

Thus one apocalyptic confrontation and then nevermore is getting off a bit easy for someone with the power to bring light from darkness and love from hate, IMO. Especially because Harry’s soul already craves union with the eternal Light behind the veil [which IMO will only be countered when Harry finds another source of the Light in the love of another on this plane of existence]. I hope there is no killing of Harry for a ‘clean’ ending, because there will always be Voldemorts in future and we need the Harrys of the world to show us the way. Not just regarding the immense transforming and redemptive power of love but also those critical aspects of universal love such of humanitarian action and tolerance of difference. Hence Harry’s outsider and ‘mutant’ status no matter where he goes, whether among wizards or muggles, plus the similar range of magical company he keeps by choice.

For love will always conquer hate [not necessarily death, but hate, for certain], if only we could believe [think MLK, Ghandi, etc.]. That with our thoughts we do make the world, iff [if and only if] our hearts are pure and strong in love. Harry knows this and was born knowing; he needs only to learn to remember. This learning, IMO, will come in the form of several persons, but especially in the form of one whom he trusts, respects, and loves [on many levels] above all others. Or so I hope…

Cheers and smooth sailing/bon voyage…

Strange, because we, the H/Hr shippers have long said that JKR keeps interrupting the H/Hr moments and we keep being told it means nothing. There are so many H/Hr interruptions that it's almost impossible not to think JKR is hiding something, as opposed to a single H/G one with the chocolate - where Harry was wondering if it was just the chocolate making him feel better. This is where the theory that Umbridge had sneaked what she thought was Veratiserum into the eggs comes in. He was interrupted while thinking about if the chocolate was making him feel calmer, before that we find out Umbridge opened the package and later on we learn that Umbridge used all the Veratiserum, which it seemed to actually be Draught of Peace.

In any case, why would 1 single H/G interruption mean all that, but all the H/Hr interruptions all over the books mean nothing? It's an isolated incident versus a repeated pattern.

More on the DOM
The fact is that JKR chose the scene for Hermione. While it could see as it mean nothing, it is at the very least strenghten the bond between H/Hr.(romantic or not) I am very sure any shipper will consider it is a important moment for their ship if the scene is replace with their characters. Consider the fact that the scene can be done with any character, why Hermione? Dont Hermione has every moment with Hary and enough screen time already??:huh: I always wonder why Hermione take up so much space in OFTP(before I come to any forum or due with any ship issue)

The reaction of Harry
It is difficult to say what reaction Harry should have. There are two factor play in this piece of written. They are the author intention and author personal view. JKR may simply consider Harry reaction are the most logical outcome base on his character and relationship with Hermione. May be Harry has not had romantic feeling for Hermione or he do not have enough time for "soul serach". It could very well be that JKR never intents H/Hr to be happen and decided not to write it in romantic scene.
Alternately, I believe the scene is written as a theme. Harry has already blame himself when he meets the DE and finds out this is a trap. He is already praying for the his friends lives. What better way to blame himself more then let his best friend get kill?(yes, we know Hermione did not died in the end) IMHO, OFTP make the war very personal to Harry. Sirus is death and his friends are very closed to death in the DoM. It is a book about the failure of Harry, and we will see how he due with his shame. JKR simply believe the death in GOF is not personal enough for Harry to suffer.

Good point Haycheng. Perhaps the war becomes progressively more personal with Hagrid, Hermione and Ron being targeted. Fabiana: that pic is so cute. :)
Nice post Evaluna. :clap: But I wonder how concerned JKR is to reform her dark characters. One of the striking features of LOTR is the way the shadow characters - Saruman for Gandalf, Gollum for Frodo, Boromir for Aragorn - are offered redemption, in Saruman's case from both Gandalf and Frodo. Draco, Lucius, Bellatrix, Voldemort have been painted very black.

Yes, but Rita was all over Hogwarts and no one knew that she was that beetle so Rita could have snuck onto Hogwarts. After all Hermione didn’t tell. This is not as interesting to me as why people think that Ron was in Quiddich practice from 11:59 PM February 13th to 12:01 AM February 15th. I mean did Ron have no time at all to even talk to Hermione? And was Ron that busy that he couldn’t have gotten her a gift for Valentines Day? Seems to me that it was a missed opportunity for Hr/R. It would have been an interesting clue to notice that Hermione smelled unusual on Valentine’s Day. Or anytime after Christmas for that matter. But not one time do we hear of Hermione smelling unusual, not at the big game or anywhere else.
It does seem odd, doesn't it. To the point, in fact, that it is in itself significant, IMO. I mean, I'm sure when we were all reading the book and saw that Valentine's day was going to feature, we all thought that something would occur involving Ron and Hermione on that occassion, whether positive or negative. But nothing, other than the fact that neither had a date. I mean JK could have dropped in some completely ambiguous scene which, if nothing else, could have served as another iron in the fire of the great shipping debate. Or is there some significance in the notion that attention is drawn to the fact that both Ron and Hermione were otherwise preoccupied on Valentines Day? I feel that there might be. Valentines Day - of all the days JK could have chosen. Almost as though JK is asking us to say 'Now, if Ron wasn't busy with Quidditch and Hermione wasn't busy with Rita.....'

It does seem odd, doesn't it. To the point, in fact, that it is in itself significant, IMO. I mean, I'm sure when we were all reading the book and saw that Valentine's day was going to feature, we all thought that something would occur involving Ron and Hermione on that occassion, whether positive or negative. But nothing, other than the fact that neither had a date. I mean JK could have dropped in some completely ambiguous scene which, if nothing else, could have served as another iron in the fire of the great shipping debate. Or is there some significance in the notion that attention is drawn to the fact that both Ron and Hermione were otherwise preoccupied on Valentines Day? I feel that there might be. Valentines Day - of all the days JK could have chosen. Almost as though JK is asking us to say 'Now, if Ron wasn't busy with Quidditch and Hermione wasn't busy with Rita.....'
:lol: I am sure many here will not agree with you. :elaugh:
I believe your have over read. The point is neither of them do anything about Valentines.As some H/Hr suggest, it indicate their probably nothing between them.

More on the DOM
The fact is that JKR chose the scene for Hermione. While it could see as it mean nothing, it is at the very least strenghten the bond between H/Hr.(romantic or not) I am very sure any shipper will consider it is a important moment for their ship if the scene is replace with their characters. Consider the fact that the scene can be done with any character, why Hermione? Dont Hermione has every moment with Hary and enough screen time already?? I always wonder why Hermione take up so much space in OFTP(before I come to any forum or due with any ship issue)

The reaction of Harry
It is difficult to say what reaction Harry should have. There are two factor play in this piece of written. They are the author intention and author personal view. JKR may simply consider Harry reaction are the most logical outcome base on his character and relationship with Hermione. May be Harry has not had romantic feeling for Hermione or he do not have enough time for "soul serach". It could very well be that JKR never intents H/Hr to be happen and decided not to write it in romantic scene.
Alternately, I believe the scene is written as a theme. Harry has already blame himself when he meets the DE and finds out this is a trap. He is already praying for the his friends lives. What better way to blame himself more then let his best friend get kill?(yes, we know Hermione did not died in the end) IMHO, OFTP make the war very personal to Harry. Sirus is death and his friends are very closed to death in the DoM. It is a book about the failure of Harry, and we will see how he due with his shame. JKR simply believe the death in GOF is not personal enough for Harry to suffer.


Haycheng, I agree with the majority of your views but I think that in the case of JKR using it as a theme, I think rather uses it as a stage in Harry's life so JKR can evolve Harry's personality for the future books by making him realise the true importance of being the 'one' and defeating Voldemort once and for all. That importance being the avoidance of death for not only his loved ones but the wizarding word.

As for the scene in the DoM being percieved as a H/Hr moment, I suppose it could but I think everyone would of reacted the same way as Harry if it had been your own best friend. In comparison to Harry's reaction when Ginny was also close-to-death, it is realistic as well. He would of been worried even though he didn't know Ginny well - he would of been worried if it was anyone, except maybe Snape and Malfoy - but he holds the Weasley family close to his heart, so it was as important as his reaction to that of Hermione. So really, both are different in different circumstances and I don't think you can really compare the two as shipping moments because both are natural reactions to the situation IMO. Plus there are many more realistic moments in canon that is more suited to the shipping.

Does Ginny also see H/Hr?

This is a theory I have come up with and it is a little off topic at the moment so bear with me. This theory to me fits along with other characters e.g. McGonagall, Malfoy etc. seeing the H/Hr connection. I haven't really seen Ginny listed with the others yet so I'll explain why she should be added.

We all know that Ginny and Hermione has a good relationship e.g. Hermione confides in Ginny that she is going with Krum to the Yule Ball, the times they spend together at the Burrow. We also know that Ginny has given up on Harry in OoTP, we do not know the exact reasons and the main assumption is that Harry hasn't noticed Ginny during her first few years at Hogwarts. But my theory to join that assumption is that Ginny being so close to Hermione, has also realised that Hermione and Harry are definately closer than they think. Hermione might of by some time in OoTP actually told Ginny that she likes Harry as well. Ginny most likely would of told Hermione that she had given up on Harry based on her relationship with Hermione, and so by the time Hermione comes around to realising she does have feelings for Harry (this coincides with Sirius83's essay about Hermione's realisation about Harry between GoF and OoTP) she has the already got the all clear from Ginny since she has given up on him. If you think there is any loop-holes in my explaination please say so. Anyways great posting from everyone and I'll continue to lurk around unless someone responses to my post.

:lol: I am sure many here will not agree with you. :elaugh:
I have a feeling you might be right, Haycheng
I believe your have over read. The point is neither of them do anything about Valentines.As some H/Hr suggest, it indicate their probably nothing between them.
That is indeed the point - neither of them do anything about Valentines Day. And in the light of what one would have expected, following the Yule Ball, and Ron's gift of perfume, etc., it is a significant point. Is is really credible to think that JK is going to build up a sense of expectation (whatever direction the resolution takes) concerning Ron and Hermione just to allow that sense of expectation to dissolve away to nothing? Or is it possible that she might be adding to that sense of expectation as much by what she omits to write, as by what she does write?

To DD
It is very clear that Ron can not do much on that day. Moreover,his feeling is general approved by most. There is not most argument about his crush on Hermione.(althought I have my doubt until he says it loud) The interest part is that hermione has not done anything about it. It has showed as a one sided crush so far.(most evident for Hr>R are pretty useless so far). therefore, why should we expect any followup from Hermione side?

To v@sh
one could argue that Ginny give up after see the H/Hr moment. However, one could also argue that Ginny give up because Harry interests in Cho.
Whatever the reason though, I found Ginny's actions are very strange. What happen to the years before Ginny start dating? She has not made a single move on Harry. She has not ever tried to be friend with Harry before OFTP. I would have expected her to try her charm on Harry before she give up, given her new(or well covered) personality.

I believe your have over read. The point is neither of them do anything about Valentines.As some H/Hr suggest, it indicate their probably nothing between them

That is indeed the point - neither of them do anything about Valentines Day. And in the light of what one would have expected, following the Yule Ball, and Ron's gift of perfume, etc., it is a significant point. Is is really credible to think that JK is going to build up a sense of expectation (whatever direction the resolution takes) concerning Ron and Hermione just to allow that sense of expectation to dissolve away to nothing? Or is it possible that she might be adding to that sense of expectation as much by what she omits to write, as by what she does write?
Sorry to cut in on your discussion boys, but i just had to say; you realize Harry spent practically the entire day with Hermione (Luna and Rita too) there may not be anything romantic going on between them but if anyone asks Harry what he did for Valentines day last year he can say that he spent it with Hermione, and yet (Daveydee) you see more shipping evidence in the fact that Ron and Hermione didn't spend the day together compared to Harry and Hermione spending the day together. Or did i misunderstand you?

To v@sh
one could argue that Ginny give up after see the H/Hr moment. However, one could also argue that Ginny give up because Harry interests in Cho.
Whatever the reason though, I found Ginny's actions are very strange. What happen to the years before Ginny start dating? She has not made a single move on Harry. She has not ever tried to be friend with Harry before OFTP. I would have expected her to try her charm on Harry before she give up, given her new(or well covered) personality.

You make valid points there. It could of definately because of Harry's interest in Cho as well. Even though I'm just speculating that it could of been something between H/Hr even when Harry was after Cho. As for Ginny's actions, I also expected her to try something as well, she has enough opportunites since Harry did visit the Weasley's a couple of times. But I guess if you did have a crush, it would be hard to try her charm - she seemed the shy type early on and it can be embaressing when things don't go exactly right, plus she is at a young age as was Harry at the time.

I think that was an example of the different ways people might like someone and approach the person they like. Some say that Hermione is too comfortable around Harry to be with him, but everyone has a different way of showing affection. Some can be shy, yet others can be more forward about it.

I'm not sure that you understand by point, Haycheng.

We have two social occasions, from which we derive much of our evidence in the shipping debate. Understandable as those two occassions are the ones on which most, if not all, the romantically based boy/girl interaction takes place.

The Yule Ball in GoF
Valentines Day in OotP

We all know the Yule Ball scene backwards and could probably quote it word for word, so I won't go into the textual detail. But in this scene JK has built a sense of anticipation concerning Ron and Hermione, whether you are coming from an H/Hr standpoint or a R/hr standpoint. There is a sense of anticipation that some resolution will follow, whether it be pro-R/Hr or anti-R/Hr, and there are decent explanations for both viewpoints. Nonetheless, the scene creates an expectation of some resolution either way. None comes.

On to OotP and Valentines Day. A perfect opportunity for resolution of the above. Ron asks Hermione for a date - she accepts; or, Ron asks Hermione for a date - she declines. Resolution. Of course, neither happens. But what does happen is in it's own way significant - Ron is busy with Quidditch; Hermione has to meet Rita, Luna and Harry. Result - sense of anticipation maintained.

Great points are made and I gonna to like this debatte, as if I didn't already..

I like the comparing between Harry/Frodo because its brings things about futur events a lot more near to our topic.
I know we are here debatting about love and Frodo didn't fall in love buts that not the point not at all. See I did read LotR before HP and its been awhile since I even thought about it.

But now Turambar bring this comparing up I started again to think and its appears in one section between HP and LotR where I see a real strong connection. Its in LotR that the ring become through the journey from day to day more heavy. Thats by Harry just the same.
But Frodo has Sam who is at his side no matter what. Someone who is even willing to take the burden from Frodo.

Thats the point where jumps my thoughts in. Its that the question who is this person in HP isn't answered, or is it?
For Harry will this burden higher as for Frodo because Harry did already lose because of this. Frodo didn't lose that much like Harry but feels the same because of this power of the ring. This say as much the story goes on as much Harry will be depressed and feeling as if He is alone.
Thats what Frodo did feel, too. It was as if everything was on his shoulders till he get at one point that Sam did go with him all the way and did probably more risk as Frodo. Most and highest image where I see a connection is as Frodo sit on the thron and feels how the eye is watching him in 1. book. Thats like Harrys dreams.

You can see a path directly to the scene as Harry and Hermione were argue if Sirius in Voldis hands or not. Thats where the end of book1 Frodo and Sam do it, too. They argue, thats what I remember, if its the best to go and leave the secure place behind. This say I see a connection between Sam/Hermione at hands of OotP and all books before.

Sam wasn't planed to come with at the beginning, not at all. Thats where Hermione wasn't planned to be friend with Harry at the beginning. She argue with Harry, how Sam do it with Frodo. I mean here the mothering part.

The burden for Frodo grows that high that he ask if it isn't be better to be dead. But he gos on not for him rather for Sam and all other people.

That is what I expect for Harry, too.

We all know that Ginny and Hermione has a good relationship e.g. Hermione confides in Ginny that she is going with Krum to the Yule Ball, the times they spend together at the Burrow. We also know that Ginny has given up on Harry in OoTP, we do not know the exact reasons and the main assumption is that Harry hasn't noticed Ginny during her first few years at Hogwarts. But my theory to join that assumption is that Ginny being so close to Hermione, has also realised that Hermione and Harry are definately closer than they think. Hermione might of by some time in OoTP actually told Ginny that she likes Harry as well. Ginny most likely would of told Hermione that she had given up on Harry based on her relationship with Hermione, and so by the time Hermione comes around to realising she does have feelings for Harry (this coincides with Sirius83's essay about Hermione's realisation about Harry between GoF and OoTP) she has the already got the all clear from Ginny since she has given up on him. If you think there is any loop-holes in my explaination please say so. Anyways great posting from everyone and I'll continue to lurk around unless someone responses to my post.

I agree with you about Ginny because how did the point Harry even come up between Hermione and Ginny? Why did Ginny tell this Hermione in the first place? And only Hermione...
Is it because Ginny guess there is something..

I'm not sure that you understand by point, Haycheng.

We have two social occasions, from which we derive much of our evidence in the shipping debate. Understandable as those two occassions are the ones on which most, if not all, the romantically based boy/girl interaction takes place.

The Yule Ball in GoF
Valentines Day in OotP

We all know the Yule Ball scene backwards and could probably quote it word for word, so I won't go into the textual detail. But in this scene JK has built a sense of anticipation concerning Ron and Hermione, whether you are coming from an H/Hr standpoint or a R/hr standpoint. There is a sense of anticipation that some resolution will follow, whether it be pro-R/Hr or anti-R/Hr, and there are decent explanations for both viewpoints. Nonetheless, the scene creates an expectation of some resolution either way. None comes.

On to OotP and Valentines Day. A perfect opportunity for resolution of the above. Ron asks Hermione for a date - she accepts; or, Ron asks Hermione for a date - she declines. Resolution. Of course, neither happens. But what does happen is in it's own way significant - Ron is busy with Quidditch; Hermione has to meet Rita, Luna and Harry. Result - sense of anticipation maintained.

H/Hr's Great posts!

What sense of anticipation? All I got from the Yule Ball scene was that Ron seems to have a slight crush on Hermione, and she flat out told him off for thinking she'd wait around and be his last resort date. OotP held no R/Hr anticipation, I was halfway expecting some R/Hr, but got major H/Hr buildup instead. JKR is doing a very good job at keeping the H/Hr low key, but the signs are all there, Harry just has to figure it out.

Falcon

I'm not sure that you understand by point

On to OotP and Valentines Day. A perfect opportunity for resolution of the above. Ron asks Hermione for a date - she accepts; or, Ron asks Hermione for a date - she declines. Resolution. Of course, neither happens. But what does happen is in it's own way significant - Ron is busy with Quidditch; Hermione has to meet Rita, Luna and Harry. Result - sense of anticipation maintained.

I understand your viewpoint here, basically your saying the JKR has place both Ron and Hermione from each other as a way to maintain the tension, correct? However, I feel that this actually goes against the way JKR has written for this relationship, though it may have changed, I doubt it. JKR has maintained the 'tension' between Hermione and Ron obvious as seen at the Yule Ball as we see them going at it hammer and tongs. It is quite obvious to see. Yet in OoTP how she has written it in contrast is totally different - by your interpretation it is along the lines of H/Hr subtleness yet I don't even see the subtleness displayed by the whole Valentines's Day thing. So if she wanted to have the tension remain yet make it obvious as the way she writes the relationship, she could of done it many ways that were obvious to a R/Hr relationship yet maintain the tension by making sure not much is resolved at such a time.

So though I see your point, I don't think it fits into the way JKR writes the relationship and what happened is just that. Nothing.

EDIT:
I agree with you about Ginny because how did the point Harry even come up between Hermione and Ginny? Why did Ginny tell this Hermione in the first place? And only Hermione...
Is it because Ginny guess there is something..


I think Ginny tells Hermione in the first place because of the relationship of their I posted about. Hermione confides in Ginny and vice versa. It also made me think, when Ginny told Hermione about how she has given up on Harry. I feel that slightly over time this conversation has also influenced Hermione to realise her own feelings for Harry because in GoF when Krum took Hermione over to have a talk I think it was about Harry in some way. When Hermione is confused at that point, I think she would of realised that since Ginny had given up on Harry there is a possibility that she could be with him. Hope that makes sense..

What sense of anticipation?

All I got from the Yule Ball scene was that Ron seems to have a slight crush on Hermione <snip>
and
OotP held no R/Hr anticipation, I was halfway expecting some R/Hr <snip>
Therein lies your sense of anticipation, however mild it might be.

EDIT: v@sh - not quite along my line of thought. I wasn't thinking about tension between Ron and Hermione. What I was referring to was the sense of anticipation of the readers.

and

Therein lies your sense of anticipation, however mild it might be.

Not exactly, hoss. My views on anticipation and expectation are two different things. When I anticipate something, it's because I want it to happen, and can't wait for it to happen. When I expect something, it may matter to me and it may not. Expectations are just that, something you expect. I'll break it down for you.

I expect to eat supper tomorrow night, however I'm anticipating the sirloin steak my wife is going to cook.

R/Hr happening in OotP was an expectation, I EXPECTED JKR to get it over and done with as soon as possible. I was anticipating the further buildup of H/Hr, and I got that, so I'm happy with OotP overall.

Falcon

EDIT: v@sh - not quite along my line of thought. I wasn't thinking about tension between Ron and Hermione. What I was referring to was the sense of anticipation of the readers.

Could you please elaborate more thoroughly on this anticipation of yours? It is a little confusing, just needs a little more clarity.

I see we're back on definitions again.

anticipation: noun [MASS NOUN] the action of anticipating something; expectation or prediction (source: Oxford English Dictionary)

Take whichever you like - anticipation, expectation or prediction. There was a sense that following GoF there might be some resolution to the R/Hr question. Many H/Hr shippers felt that a brief and traumatic fling would occur, to allow Ron and Hermione to 'get it out of their system'; many R/Hr shippers felt that they would come together in something more permanent. I'm sure shippers from both sides felt that Valentines Day would be 'it'.

As it is neither happened. So whether you want to call it anticipation, expectation or prediction, it remains.

For is it not about how Harry react on this kiss or Ron react because let face it this say still nothing because first we don't know how Harry would react if his love kiss him, do we?
We don't know how Ron could react.
But if you say this count than you need to ask does it mean anything for the future because they can still change this feelings, don't they?
Isn't Harry suppose to fancy Cho in GoF and not Hermione?
Isn't Ron suppose to have still this unknown feelings for Hermione in OotP?

Yes, yes they are suppose to be like that. Now isn't Harry suppose to be more interest in Cho as he really do in OotP?
He is but he isn't interest in her not anymore.

The interesting part is how does appear this kiss to the reader, not the shipper? Especially if we say we do see it on the screen.
In the GoF-movie, just think of this book now as a movie, is it at the end. After 2 or 3 hours of a very dark movie, where we got a fight between the hero and his best friend. The girl does to our surprise believe the heros vision and point out the friend is just jealousy. After we saw how the hero did solve the first two tasks, after we saw how the hero saw the girl with another guy on the ball, after we saw the best friend yells at the girl because of that.
After we saw the third task, after we saw how another guy died and the bad guy did reborn.
After we saw how the hero cried, after we saw this isn't the end, after a trainride which wasn't realy happy.
We see this kiss at the end. Naturelly we are on the side of the hero, thats on screen more like that as in canon. For sure you don't expect a big reaction from Harry because he is still under that what did happen in GoF. He didn't react in anyway after he was back. So you understand it but you understand or rather think about this kiss as sign of hope, a kind of like a light in the darkness of this ending.

Now we have another movie this one is OotP. At the beginning we see a depressed, recless Harry. Than an attack by dementors where he only could create a patronus because his thinking at his two best friends.
Than we see him angry at 12G. We see how Hermione hugs him like crazy than how he explode, we see that Harry barely come away to go again on this school.
We see how people think Harry is lying. All along how Ron get his badge as prefect and trys out as keeper. We see how Umbridge is being cruel and unfair to Harry. We see how DA get started.
We see how difficult its for Ron to be a keeper in train.
Than we see the first match Ron get a kiss from Hermione and in the background we see the Slytherin table with this badges. Ron is distraced later we get whats this all about with the badges.
That was in the first hour of this movie. Now comes two more hours where we see alot action and advenutres at the end dies Harrys godfather because of Harry.
After the movie you don't even remember what was it about this kiss?

See its interesting that the H/Hr kiss was at the end so you would remember but by OotP is it in the middle so you won't remember if you are a normal reader or a normal movie watcher.

I see we're back on definitions again.

anticipation: noun [MASS NOUN] the action of anticipating something; expectation or prediction (source: Oxford English Dictionary)

Take whichever you like - anticipation, expectation or prediction. There was a sense that following GoF there might be some resolution to the R/Hr question. Many H/Hr shippers felt that a brief and traumatic fling would occur, to allow Ron and Hermione to 'get it out of their system'; many R/Hr shippers felt that they would come together in something more permanent. I'm sure shippers from both sides felt that Valentines Day would be 'it'.

As it is neither happened. So whether you want to call it anticipation, expectation or prediction, it remains.

I see what you mean now, I hope :D . So you assumed that shippers from both sides (or netural readers) anticipated that on Valentines day something would happen. But since nothing did happen and Ron and Hermione were doing something else, that anticipation still stands?

By the way FP the kiss between H/Hr and R/Hr if placed in the movies, I can see your understanding of it. But I think R/Hr would easily disagree and think that they're kiss on the cheek is more significant and will be remembered more than the other. But I do agree something at the end of the movie would remain in my mind rather than something in the middle unless it was a great scene or sequence of events. I still think both kisses are platonic and are a showing of support from Hermione. Though I think Hermione kiss towards Harry IMO can be considered to a more romantic way than that of the R/Hr kiss because it definately fits with how the story is progressing.

I see what you mean now, I hope :D . So you assumed that shippers from both sides (or netural readers) anticipated that on Valentines day something would happen. But since nothing did happen and Ron and Hermione were doing something else, that anticipation still stands?
Precisely - not only still stands, but heightened by the mere fact that nothing happened.

Precisely - not only still stands, but heightened by the mere fact that nothing happened.

Okay, now I have the geist of it I guess I can rebuttle :D . It definately makes sense the way you view the chapter and the way you say that it can be heightened because of the anticipation of the next time a significant date comes along where the two may be in a scene also works. However, I still disagree. Why?

In the context of what actually happened and took place on Valentines day, your assumptions that this was 'it' i.e. where it was resolved is because of your opinion that everyone expected that something would happen on Valentines day. Some people may have anticipated this (you are one of them), whereas others have not (such as me). I'm sure you have a valid point from your POV (and that of R/Hrs) that it maintains the anticipation for further development between Ron and Hermione, but after OoTP this anticipation totally changes because of the implication that nothing is happening between them.

This also could be viewed as heightened anticipation, but to do it through a whole book? I don't JKR would do that when she has already made the relationship, mainly Ron's side, so obvious. I think JKR actually does build the anticipation (so your point is partially valid IMO) through Ron - his gift to Hermione, his reaction to her kiss on the cheek - but rather it being the 'feelings' for each other between Ron and Hermione, it is rather the anticipation of when Ron will go further than what he has already done and Hermione's reaction to Ron's further advances. I hope I made the anticipation clear. You view it as the anticipation of the possible relationship between Ron and Hermione whereas I would view it as the anticipation of what Ron will do about Hermione if he does go after her and her reaction towards Ron, because we definately have different viewpoints about Hermione's feelings towards Ron.

I have digressed a fair bit from what actually happened on Valentines day and like I said before I think nothing between Ron and Hermione happened on that day. It was mainly about Harry's relationship and the meeting with Rita Skeeter and though Ron and Hermione did not have any dates, it doesn't mean anything of significance IMO as to further the plot romance wise.

You view it as the anticipation of the possible relationship between Ron and Hermione whereas I would view it as the anticipation of what Ron will do about Hermione if he does go after her and her reaction towards Ron, because we definately have different viewpoints about Hermione's feelings towards Ron.
No - I view it merely as anticipation of resolution either way. The original point was in response to Hawk92's suggestion that Valentines Day was a missed opportunity for JK to draw attention to R/Hr if that is her intended romantic route. I'm saying that by not having any R/Hr interaction on Valentines Day by virtue of the fact that both were otherwise engaged, that in itself draws attention.

No - I view it merely as anticipation of resolution either way. The original point was in response to Hawk92's suggestion that Valentines Day was a missed opportunity for JK to draw attention to R/Hr if that is her intended romantic route. I'm saying that by not having any R/Hr interaction on Valentines Day by virtue of the fact that both were otherwise engaged, that in itself draws attention.


Okay, the view you make is pretty blunt there. I don't think I read Hawk92's suggestion that Valentines Day was a missed opportunity so that prob. muddled up my interpretation of some things. Anyway I still disagree on your view (you prob. expected that) and its basically complete opposite of your view which is that I think it doesn't drawn attention. Don't think I need to go any further than that.

Turambar
They are the only students they each know whom they could have an equal relationship with. So are you saying that each powerful centre should be with a lesser satellite? Hermione runs rough shod over Ron now and lacks respect for him: she would dominate and overshadow him as his romantic partner. Harry is actually the one boy Hermione admires and doesn't feel superior to. (Moreso than Krum though he's close to it). They each respect the other. We've seen plenty of examples of how Harry and Hermione work in together: they are both strong enough to be able to tell each other what to do when required or to defer to the other. I find it interesting that Harry is the only boy Hermione feels she can be vulnerable with to the extent of damsel-in-distress behaviour in the OOTP forest scenes.
I'm not really trying to say that, no. I think that relationships require a certain amount of give and take, leading and following – and it seems that, at times, Harry and Hermione have clashed in their ideas of what the appropriate course of action might be. In the DOM scene, they seem to work well together, but it isn't a give-and-take, IMO. Harry is completely the leader in the DOM, because he is the one who had the dreams about it, and he is the one who knows which way to go. Now, I'm not sure about this, but it isn't a far stretch to imagine that, had Hermione begun to be the "leader" at some point in the DOM before she is rendered unconscious, I think that Harry would have had some serious difficulty "deferring" to her. He has enough difficulty "deferring" to her suggestion that he try to contact Sirius before gallavanting off to London.


Clearly, if we look at how the scene could have been written, the author has passed up a golden opportunity for an R/Hr moment in favour of yet more H/Hr closeness and development. How is that good for R/Hr?
Considering the "could-have-beens" of many scenes can go whichever way a shipper may wish. So why didn't Ron buy Hermione a V-day gift? Well, why didn't Harry? Why didn't Hermione buy either of them a gift? Why didn't Harry buy Cho a gift – we know he liked her. I don't see how the scene between Rita, Hermione, Luna, and Harry is a development of H/Hr or showing their "closeness." There are two other people with them, one of whom Harry and Hermione both dislike greatly. There are H/Hr moments that "could have been" written in a variety of places, but were not. Why is that? Well, I don't know. Why is Hermione's letter to Harry in PoA full of mentions of Ron? Why do Ron and Hermione have a big to-do over the Yule Ball while Harry remains indifferent? Why is Harry coupled with a girl (Cho), who is pretty, and popular, and good at his favorite sport – seemingly an opposite of Hermione? Why is it Hermione who is petrified in CoS and Ginny who is taken by Riddle and not the other way around?
And, like I was arguing earlier, why wasn't the DOM scene written in such a way to indicate more depth of feeling from Harry to Hermione? Why do we see a similar reaction from Harry when he is faced with the possible death of Ginny? When he is faced with the dead body of Cedric Diggory?


Consider for a moment this situation from two different angles a) she has romantic feelings for Ron and b) that she just considers Ron a friend. With b) it's logical: one of her friends is playing in the game but she choses to go with her other main friend to help another friend. But a) is not logical. Her 'sweetheart' is playing in the biggest match of his life, is under pressure and needs all the support he can get yet, without any protest, she trots off compliently with her 'platonic' friend to see what another friend wants when the 'platonic' friend is perfectly capable of finding out what's happening and telling her later. That's putting two friends before her 'sweetheart' who just happens to be involved in one of the most significant events (to him) he's been involved in ever at Hogwarts. And she doesn't say a WORD against leaving the game. It just doesn't make sense.
Let's say she has some romantic feelings for Ron. But Hagrid, whom she also cares about greatly (and we know that she truly cares about him a lot – she slaps Malfoy for something he says about Hagrid, yet she merely ignore, and who has been showing up looking as if he has been mauled by a terrible creature, yet continually refuses to tell them (the trio) what is happening to him, suddenly comes up and implores Harry AND Hermione to go with him. Liking Ron or not liking Ron, it is entirely against the nature of our inquisitive and concerned Hermione to say "Harry, you go and tell me what happens later. I need to sit here and watch Gryffindor get pummled at a sport I really don't even care much about, and, besides, I don't really need to know what's going on with Hagrid right now. I mean, it can't be anything that important, can it? Surely not as important as Quidditch? Cuts and bruises? Oh, they aren't that bad, really." It does make sense that she would get up and go with Hagrid regardless of her feelings for Ron, simply based on the facts that a) he asked her to, and told them it was important, b) Hermione is inquisitive and wants to know things and c) Obviously, whatever is going on with Hagrid (him being hurt, coming to them and telling them that it is important that they come with him not, him being in danger of being sacked) is more important on any day of the week than the Quidditch match.

Yes she (and Harry) later feel bad about missing Ron's heroics but their concern is totally just on the level of friendship. This is the girl who, for example, was "stricken" and with eyes "shining with tears" in POA just at the thought that Harry might possibly chase after Sirius. For Ron she stretches out her hand. Why is her concern as a friend for Harry always more intense?
Maybe because Harry going after a wizard whom she believes to be out to kill Harry and missing Ron's match are on two different levels of intensity. Maybe because Harry is always in the more "intense" situations. But let's take two events around the same level of intensity – missing Ron's game and Harry not being made prefect. When Hermione and Harry are alone, she doesn't reach out to him at all – literally or figuratively. We don't ever hear her say "Oh, Harry, I'm so sorry." Or "I'm sorry you didn't make prefect, I really thought you would. We all did." She asks to use his owl. When they have to tell Ron that they have missed the game, Hermione steps up to say that she's really really sorry and she offers him her hand. Harry isn't the one to say that they're really really sorry and that they didn't want to leave but they had to – it's Hermione. Is this one of those scenes that we should look at the way it could have been written?

Noddwyd

Yet he kept his head, and was able to duel Voldemort and escape with his life and Cedric's body. In the Chamber, which, in my opinion, was probably the most dangerous situation he has ever been in. Just happen to look in the wrong direction and you're dead. And he see's Ginny lying there, and he tosses his wand aside, (not a very smart move), and tries to wake her.

But my point about the Chamber was that even though the danger there could have actually been considered greater, he didn't give in to panic, and was able to kill the Basilisk along with Riddles memory. He was able to put all his focus on Riddle, despite Ginny lying there slowly dying in front of him. So these reactions are definitely not the same.
Harry is pretty remarkable in that he seems to be able to do whatever needs to be done in the face of one of his friends being in mortal peril, or, in fact, dead.
a) Ginny in the Chamber – he has a moment of panic, he casts his wand aside and pleads for her to wake up, to not be dead.
b) Cedric in the graveyard – his has his moment of total disbelief, looking as Cedric's face, and is then snatched up, before he can fully react. He then faces his own death, duels with Voldemort, and is able to escape with Cedric's body.
c) Hermione in the DOM – he panics, is able to think clearly enough to petrify Dolohov, pleads for her to not be dead, finds out she has a pulse, and immediately is able to think about his other friends also in danger and to run off after them.
Harry doesn't seem prone to giving in to panic in any of these situations, though there are initial moments of panic when he seems shocked, desperate, scared, and unsure. But then he is always able to move past that moment, not give in to the panic, and do what is best for himself and for his friends. He's always around to save the day, after all! :D


Hawk
I mean did Ron have no time at all to even talk to Hermione? And was Ron that busy that he couldn’t have gotten her a gift for Valentines Day?

Seems to me that it was a missed opportunity for Hr/R. It would have been an interesting clue to notice that Hermione smelled unusual on Valentine’s Day. Or anytime after Christmas for that matter. But not one time do we hear of Hermione smelling unusual, not at the big game or anywhere else.
Well, I guess I already kind-of responded to this in my response to Turambar. :)

Fairydust

Anyhoo, what I think Mad-I Moody's getting at is that two very strong willed individuals with very strong personalities and ideas clash. I wouldn't want to see a relationship where there is one very strong dominant person and one weak person. However, with two very strong people with very strong ideas and opinions something's got to give. With Harry and Hermione I can't see them giving to each other. Not without a lot of convincing and even then there'd be a little skepticism there. Does that make sense?
I think it does make sense, Fairydust. And I agree. As of now, we don't see a lot of Hermione or Harry "giving in" to the other, unless it is out of sheer frustration (Hermione's suggestion to go and look for Sirius before going to the DOM). This is not to say that it isn't something that can be learned; it just seems that, as of this point in the series, it hasn't been – IMO, anyway.

[INDENT]The fact is that JKR chose the scene for Hermione. While it could see as it mean nothing, it is at the very least strenghten the bond between H/Hr.(romantic or not) I am very sure any shipper will consider it is a important moment for their ship if the scene is replace with their characters. Consider the fact that the scene can be done with any character, why Hermione? Dont Hermione has every moment with Hary and enough screen time already?? I always wonder why Hermione take up so much space in OFTP(before I come to any forum or due with any ship issue)..[INDENT]

I think it is interesting that Hermione was chosen for that scene, as well, except for different reasons. JKR is clearly trying to point out that Harry is not interested in Hermione romantically, IMO. This would have been a perfect opportunity to inject some romantic thoughts, i.e. "please don't die, I need you or I can't live without you." Instead, we have Harry saying don't die, don't die, it's my fault if your dead. Not good. Also, it shows how brave Neville is. He is turning into a wonderful character. It's also interesting to see that Ron's reaction to Hermione's state is not given to us. I'm sure Ron would have a much stronger reaction than Harry's, which is why his reaction was left out.

You know, bringing up the Sam/Frodo relationship reminded me of when Sam took the ring and was prepared to go on alone without Frodo. And also how the ring always seemed to me to be too much of a burden for one person (or hobbit) to carry. This is paralleled in Harry and his task of defeating Voldemort to protect the world. It just seems too much for one person.

Any way, I know this probably doesn't mean anything, but you know how Frodo always carried the ring on a chain around his neck? Well, that coulpled with the above reminded me of this:

She was holding the chain out. He saw a tiny, sparkling hourglass hanging from it.
"Here-"
She had thrown the chain around his neck too.
"Ready?" she said breathlessly. . .
that's from PoA p.394 US edition

Heh. I just thought that was funny in a symbollic kinda way, and wanted to share.

I'm not really trying to say that, no. I think that relationships require a certain amount of give and take, leading and following – and it seems that, at times, Harry and Hermione have clashed in their ideas of what the appropriate course of action might be. In the DOM scene, they seem to work well together, but it isn't a give-and-take, IMO. Harry is completely the leader in the DOM, because he is the one who had the dreams about it, and he is the one who knows which way to go. Now, I'm not sure about this, but it isn't a far stretch to imagine that, had Hermione begun to be the "leader" at some point in the DOM before she is rendered unconscious, I think that Harry would have had some serious difficulty "deferring" to her. He has enough difficulty "deferring" to her suggestion that he try to contact Sirius before gallavanting off to London.

At times Harry is the one who leads and at times is it Hermione and at Times they disagree with each other. But still this isn't an arguement against H/Hr.
See I prefer someone who can be a leader and someone who I can debatte if he is right as someone who is from the beginning thinking he is wrong, he don't know anything. I just don't see the point of this. There isn't any problem with it. Is it? Is it that Harry debatte with her in DoM or in the forrest as they are in danger? No, they work together no matter. So where is this argument whats speaks that much against a Harry who falls for Hermione or a Hermione who falls for Harry.
Where is the sign that Harry could find in Hermione an example what would let him never fall for her or Where is it by Harry for Hermione? If you say now there in OotP was an example where a constant angry Harry was annoyed with Hermione than think about why? Maybe because she was right and he knew it?
Or because she is in general annoying him like some other people did state in the past? If she is annoying him in general than fits the idea she is his one of his best friends no longer. Someone who annoys him always is Malfoy.

This signs we have by Ron and Hermione. There are signs where I can see what could stop falling them for each other.

Let's say she has some romantic feelings for Ron. But Hagrid, whom she also cares about greatly is more important on any day of the week than the Quidditch match.

Just a no isn't that far streched if Hermione has to decide if she want to look out for her "love" or rather hear what old Hagrid has to say. First it wasn't any game it was the last and importants game for Ron in this session.
So why not tell Harry "You go with I wait here than you can tell Ron and me what is it about!" Would be there a different? No.
Why is she than not there and still watch the game? Simple because Hagrid is more interesting to Hermione as Ron at this moment. She don't care if he win or not, that say in the sametime she don't care much if Ron is because of that happy or not. All what she want is to get why Hagrid looks like that. After that Hermione can't have such deep feelings for Ron, if she don't care, if she can without argue, without agreeing, without anything just follow Hagrid. By the way thats another instance as Hermione did never agree to go with though she did follow Harry. It was only Harry who agree. He did even speak in Hermiones name though he didn't know what she want.

"Course we'll come." said Harry.

There is no Hermione who nod, no comment that Harry looked at her and she noded. Harry just know she would come along. That again suggest that Harry think that Hermione wouldn't stay alone and watch Ron. This suggest even he don't think in the slightest there is something going on. Its even say thats for Harry natural that Hermione comes along.

If you take it we could argue if Hermione stayed ever behind? And its look as if she did never not if its not clearly said she have to be behind. To this comes the interesting part of the DoM ride. As Harry said that he and Ron did go first. Hermione didn't want to be left behind because she never did before. Why now? Did something change?

EDIT:
Thats not a bad idea. To be exact its very good this again wonder myself where is Ron. You can say that Harry and Hermione together changed the time and alone this is significant because both did something what nobody else did in this books. Over all they did it together and not apart maybe there is more as just a reason why JKR did Ron knock out, because she did it than why? Why needed Ron to be not there, too? Where is the reason?
Maybe foreshadowing that it will be H/Hr who have the burden like in LOTR Frodo and Sam. Nobody else had it in LOTR just this two so it can mean Harry won't be alone in that matter.

A thing that go right through my head is: Did JKR in OotP already split the trio? In a matter of fact she did. There is not one scene where all three together in one room are in danger. Maybe JKR does already prepare for H/Hr in the last two books. Sure I don't want it like that. But its look as if she do it already. See Its like that in GoF did it start and in OotP JKR gos further. She don't need anymore a fight between Ron and Harry to seperate them. What will she do in book6? How will she go on?
For one instance Hermione is more and more in this books nearly so often like Harry but Ron is less and less in this books. First GoF with the fight we didn't saw much from Ron than OotP is it again like that but without a fight.
See Hermione was petrified in COS she couldn't for it, in PoA was it a fight but still she was like a shadow around and took at the end all back what where she wasn't around. But Ron didn't this or rather JKR didn't let him.

Great posts everyone! :clap: This has been the best debates since I got here. :)

Daveydee what v@sh said. :)

Fabiana:
When do you think Harry will find his true love? (Book 6? Book 7? In the beginning or in the end?)


I had always expected middle or end of Book 6 and then at other times book 7. All I want is for Harry to experience all kinds of love and not die so he can have the life that he deserves.

Hi!

Thanks for everybody that answered my question. (Although my intention was more to make people start thinking about they were suggesting, anyway...) And thanks Turambar, I love that pic too!

We see this kiss at the end. Naturelly we are on the side of the hero, thats on screen more like that as in canon. For sure you don't expect a big reaction from Harry because he is still under that what did happen in GoF. He didn't react in anyway after he was back. So you understand it but you understand or rather think about this kiss as sign of hope, a kind of like a light in the darkness of this ending.
...
Than we see the first match Ron get a kiss from Hermione and in the background we see the Slytherin table with this badges. Ron is distraced later we get whats this all about with the badges.
That was in the first hour of this movie. Now comes two more hours where we see alot action and advenutres at the end dies Harrys godfather because of Harry.
After the movie you don't even remember what was it about this kiss?

See its interesting that the H/Hr kiss was at the end so you would remember but by OotP is it in the middle so you won't remember if you are a normal reader or a normal movie watcher.
You know, I'm currently working in an essay trying to prove that the King Cross kiss was more meaningful than the Quidditch one. I'm almost finishing it, I would probably have finished it this Saturday, but I have to go for an off-site for the bank I work :shrug: .
So, if we could delay this discussion for some days it would be great... And, as a matter of fact, v@sh (v@sh), I'll be happy to show you that the King Cross kiss wasn't exactly a platonic one :rolleyes:

These posts are great everyone, I've been reading them for a while.

**takes a deep breath**
Okay, here I go.

I am a full-on Ron/Hermione shipper. I believe that R/Hr have incredible chemistry. The Yule Ball was proof. And the way that I can hope that the story goes, is that Ron matures a little, and the two of them can divulge their mutual feelings of romance for each other.

Now, I don't think that there even is a H/Hr ( :no: ), simply because their relationship transcends all of that. They have a mutual love and respect for each other. I do not think of their relationship as romantic at all.

But you know what? That's not to say that H/Hr won't be (or are) attracted to one another. There may even be a triangle, in which Ron and Harry both have feelings for Hermione, and perhaps have a falling out because of that.

I remember in OotP about the thestrals, the part when Luna told Harry that she could see them because she was exposed to death as well. I think that Harry and Luna have much more in common that anyone that I've seen, so that's who I think will start falling for each other, or it could be one-sided.

And just because Luna thinks Ron is funny, doesn't make them ship candidates.

And as far as the kisses go, Hermione kissing Harry in GoF is not romantic, but out of relief, simply because he nearly...hmm...DIED! And Hermione kissing Ron before the Quidditch match was a little more intimate. Sure, she was wishing him luck, but she could have simply said, "Hey, Ron, good luck and be careful!" or she could have patted him on the back.

It's always fun to debate, but J.K.R. can surprise the heck out of us, so we'll see...

to DD
Hi, I went to sleep after my late post. I have read your recent post and I understand you view. As a netural person, I can tell you that your view is sound and could be a posible. By seperate Ron and Hermione, JKR can continous to on hold the relationship until the right moment. However, the fact remain, Hermione has not taken any action on that day. There is nothing productive from Hermione on that day(if any at all).
H/Hr view on the situation(my view point)
Most of the quote that indicate Hermione's feeling are unclear. As for H/Hr, their evident are just as unclear as R/Hr. However, most of the H/Hr's point do point out the netural respect and caring between them. As of R/Hr, most of the evidents still give us an appearance that they are very different person and hold little respect for each other. I believe due to experience difference and perfer, H/Hr simply see the respect and caring as a higher possibility to become romantic relationship.


Will be back soon, have to get something to eat.

:welcome: Alia the Ravenclaw to our humble home Yes this is our home peeps because everyone seems to be here all the time! :p )

Now on to your post....


I am a full-on Ron/Hermione shipper. I believe that R/Hr have incredible chemistry. The Yule Ball was proof. And the way that I can hope that the story goes, is that Ron matures a little, and the two of them can divulge their mutual feelings of romance for each other.

Could you elaborate what exactly about the Yule Brawl you think was proof. I can imagine, but I'd like to see if you come with a different approach.

Now, I don't think that there even is a H/Hr ( :no: ), simply because their relationship transcends all of that. They have a mutual love and respect for eac other. I do not think of their relationship as romantic at all.

So you don't think friends who have "a mutual love and respect for each other" can grow to love each other in the eros way? (Thank you evaluna for the new vocabulary! ;) )


And just because Luna thinks Ron is funny, doesn't make them ship candidates.

Luna not only finds Ron funny, but she also shows her support by wearing a huge lion on her head and calls Ron "Ronald" which none of his friends have done. She, also, has a thing about singing "Weasley Is Our King." In her first meeting with Ron, she tells him that she wouldn't have minded going to the Yule Ball with him because she doesn't like to dance. That topic came out of left field, imo. These are proof, to ME, that she likes him.

And as far as the kisses go, Hermione kissing Harry in GoF is not romantic, but out of relief, simply because he nearly...hmm...DIED!

And Hermione kissing Ron before the Quidditch match was a little more intimate. Sure, she was wishing him luck, but she could have simply said, "Hey, Ron, good luck and be careful!" or she could have patted him on the back.


For some of us Harmonians, it is important because Harry realizes that Hermione "did something that she has never done before." Though now I try to look at it as a platonic kiss, as well as Ron's good luck kiss.

We, also, don't know what's the deal with Hermione's "And Harry." Did she kiss Harry, too?

All good points, Alia the Ravenclaw. I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with any of them. :D

:welcome: to the thread - it's not that bad, honest. :whistle:

If you're sticking around - allow me to offer you a seat in the first class lounge on board HMS Heron, the navy's finest.

I'm not sure that you understand by point, Haycheng.

We have two social occasions, from which we derive much of our evidence in the shipping debate. Understandable as those two occassions are the ones on which most, if not all, the romantically based boy/girl interaction takes place.

The Yule Ball in GoF
Valentines Day in OotP

We all know the Yule Ball scene backwards and could probably quote it word for word, so I won't go into the textual detail. But in this scene JK has built a sense of anticipation concerning Ron and Hermione, whether you are coming from an H/Hr standpoint or a R/hr standpoint. There is a sense of anticipation that some resolution will follow, whether it be pro-R/Hr or anti-R/Hr, and there are decent explanations for both viewpoints. Nonetheless, the scene creates an expectation of some resolution either way. None comes.

On to OotP and Valentines Day. A perfect opportunity for resolution of the above. Ron asks Hermione for a date - she accepts; or, Ron asks Hermione for a date - she declines. Resolution. Of course, neither happens. But what does happen is in it's own way significant - Ron is busy with Quidditch; Hermione has to meet Rita, Luna and Harry. Result - sense of anticipation maintained.

Daveydee, I totally agree with this, in that it creates an anticipation on the issues of romance. I guess no matter how you look at it the romance issue is going to involve Ron, Hermione and Harry.

I think the Yule Ball scene was the inciting incident that basically boosted readers senses toward the romance issue, and the Valentines chapter was simply an anticipative moment because we as readers knew there was a resolution to be had reguarding R/Hr, H/Hr, R/L, and H/G. Harry was on his fisrt date for goodness sake, with his crush; a girl who could have sunk some ships. So now we readers keen our eyes and minds in anticipation of hint or confirmation of a resolution to the issues.

:)

Thanks, everyone!

Okay, Grace.

The Yule Brawl being proof because there was major tension on both R/Hr's part. Ron being ****** that Viktor Krum was escorting her, Hermione not liking Fleur Delacour, the same girl Ron fancied, for no real reason at all...I think we all know what I am implying.

I do not think Harry and Hermione have a romantic relationship. I don't. But who knows? They could fall in love, these things happen. In my R/Hr haze, I'm not close-minded to other possibilities. But based on what I've read in books 1-4, I do not see romance, but rather a close friendship. No, no, greater than that. Hermione's like the sister Harry's never had. And Ron being the brother.

You've got me on the Ron/Luna thing. That could be the case. But what if Luna really wanted Gryfinndor to win, thus wearing the lion on her head for support? What if she thinks "Weasley Is Our King" is a catchy tune? Because she doesn't like dancing, she said she would have went with Ron because he didn't dance--who's to say that was because she likes him? Luna's off-center, she could have been doing all those things because, well, she can. (Okay, I just said all this to get on your nerves. :lol: )

Okay, it took me ten minutes to figure out that "Harmonians" is a term for H/Hr ships...right, then.

Hey, this can go anyway. I also wouldn't be mad if Harry and Cho reunited.

Wow! Great posts, all. Really impressive. Just time for a few brief comments…back later for more…

Turambar
Good point Haycheng. Perhaps the war becomes progressively more personal with Hagrid, Hermione and Ron being targeted. Fabiana: that pic is so cute.
Nice post Evaluna. But I wonder how concerned JKR is to reform her dark characters. One of the striking features of LOTR is the way the shadow characters - Saruman for Gandalf, Gollum for Frodo, Boromir for Aragorn - are offered redemption, in Saruman's case from both Gandalf and Frodo. Draco, Lucius, Bellatrix, Voldemort have been painted very black.

Turambar,
I have wondered about this as well, that is whether any of these will undergo any evolution and if so, whether for good or further for evil. Bella is pretty much at rock bottom already, along with Voldemort if not more so. Voldemort seeks power to avoid death, whilst Bella seeks power mainly to indulge her fanatical cruelty and sadism. Dark as he is, though, even Voldemort seems to crave some connection, even if dark, through his parallels to Harry. He comments on their connection in the Chamber and again at the graveyard. Actually perhaps Voldemort can yet be redeemed by the Light else he will probably just continue on unchecked [as Voldemort still seems able to use possession to avoid death]?

As for Draco and Lucius, Lucius is the other worst kind of evil, the weak kind that will commit the most atrocious acts in support of those in power. But he and his son are lazy as well and inclined toward whomever will favour them best. They are the weakest links in any chain [along with the Wormtails] and whilst wholly untrustworthy at present perhaps may be turned via some momentous event [?]. Lucius is abusive towards Draco [canes and cuffs him, berates him harshly], so there’s likely a bit of Bella there as well. Draco may be a better candidate for an epiphany of this sort, as his tower [the Orthanc imagery] may not yet be unbreachable, and after all his role model to date has been… em…extremely poor.

Or not…though I think Voldemort alone is really the key adversary for Harry [as in ‘my enemy, myself’ in more ways than one], and Voldemort, far more profoundly than any of the others, is bound to Harry [psychically, and through shared blood and history] and thus will come under Harry’s immeasurable influence like no one else.

I'm sure I need to ponder further...great topic, this.


V@sh
Haycheng, I agree with the majority of your views but I think that in the case of JKR using it as a theme, I think rather uses it as a stage in Harry's life so JKR can evolve Harry's personality for the future books by making him realise the true importance of being the 'one' and defeating Voldemort once and for all. That importance being the avoidance of death for not only his loved ones but the wizarding word.

Agreed. The 5th phase of the soul’s evolution involves communication, a theme we saw played out repeatedly in OoP. Indian esoteric philosophy also conceives of this same idea as the communication ‘chakra’. Communication is necessary for progress, to build trust, and to lay foundations for deeper understanding. All of this will no doubt continue to underlay Harry’s development and that of the series in book 6.



Grace Granger
So you don't think friends who have "a mutual love and respect for each other" can grow to love each other in the eros way? (Thank you evaluna for the new vocabulary! )

You’re quite welcome! This was still in response to Alia the Ravenclaw but thanks to DaveyDee for doublechecking my ref:

Am Griffindor myself but it’s all good…I personally think that of course they can, but that the very statement implies a foundation of a love between souls first, and eros second. The reverse path never guarantees a soulmate love and tends to burn out, as it is not based on anything deeper or more permanent. The path of true platonic love [in the classic sense of the word] ensures the greatest of loves, one that satisfies the soul [B Marley anyone?], whilst allowing for the possibility of eros in the appropriate time and place [i.e. between persons permitted to one another], and providing for sustenance of the relationship at all levels over time. Something that almost by definition cannot happen with eros alone. Does a relationship based on eros progress to a love between souls? Possibly, but for certain this is far less likely. Because the soul is where it’s at. That’s where the lasting “chemistry” lies. The soul is the seat of the self, and all that other stuff [whether you’re DDG or just whatever ;)] is fleeting and transitory, revealing nothing about true compatibility and connection.

EDIT: DD, thanks for clarification--have changed quote designee!

Must flee…Cheers!

Just so that you're clear Alia

HMS Harmony is the H/Hr ship
HMS Heron is the R/Hr ship (you belong here :agree:)
HMS Chocolate is the H/G ship
HMS Rooney is the R/L ship
SIGNS is the N/G ship (I think)

evaluna, the quote in your post above that you've attributed to Alia was in fact from Grace's post. No problem, though.

I just wanted to pop in to say :welcome: to Alia the Ravenclaw!
Nice to have you on board the HMS Heron!

Oh, and I also wanted to point out that Luna said that she wouldn't have minded NOT DANCING at the Yule ball. She did not say anything about wanting to go with Ron, or that she wouldn't have minded going with Ron. She wouldn't have minded not dancing.

Also, if Luna is so hot for Ron, (which, by the way, I don't deny the possibility of) why is she singing Weasley is our King (a personally insulting song directed at Ron, talking about him being born in a bin and such)? How is that an indication of a crush? She's singing a song deliberately made up to hurt and humiliate Ron. If this is explained away by "Well, Luna is a bit -- strange," then the argument that she's simply singing the song because she likes the tune and NOT Ron should stand as well. If that makes sense.:shrug:

OK, bye again. :clap: to the Herons!

Alia the Ravenclaw said :
The Yule Brawl being proof because there was major tension on both R/Hr's part. Ron being ****** that Viktor Krum was escorting her, Hermione not liking Fleur Delacour, the same girl Ron fancied, for no real reason at all...I think we all know what I am implying.

Where exactly is the tension during the Yule Brawl on Hermione's part? Ron was not there with Fleur and she didn't seem the upset in the slightest that he was there with another girl, Padma.

Hermione was having a wonderful time apparently, deep in conversation with Viktor, dancing, and letting her hair down. So where is the tension on her part exactly?

Ron was the one acting childish and blowing up on Hermione even going so far as to accuse her of "fraternizing with the enemy." There is your tension. R -> Hr. Not R <-> Hr

As to her disliking Fleur...Hermione disliked her the moment she laughed during Dumbledore's speech. That was the first impression Hermione got from Fleur, lack of respect for others and a smug attitude. From that moment on Fleur did nothing but reinforce that really, so...there you go. See Hawks previous posts about this subject.

The "tension" is really one sided, and I think that the only reason there is tension is because Ron is the one bringing it not Hermione. R/Hr is and has been one sided, at this point.

Okay, Hermes, valid point.

It's a little late, but when I said Yule Ball, I didn't mean THE ball, I meant all the events surrounding the ball. I should have just said GoF, so that it'd be clear.

And the tension that I noticed was the argument that Ron and Hermione had in the common room. They were both upset, but as we all know, Ron is emotional, so there was much more drama coming from his end.

Side note: I don't have GoF in my possession...I lent it out. **sobs** I'VE GOTTA GET IT BACK!! I NEED IT!! TO WIN ARGUMENTS WITH THE HARMONIANS!!!

**sobs some more**

Fabiana and Nia, I really like ur pics in ur signatures!
I think I'll be boarding HMS Harmony
I think Harry and Cho would make a good couple but it is clear at the end of OoTP that Harry isn't interested in Cho anymore. It makes more sense for H/Hr than R/Hr.
I just want to make 2 points
1) In the film, Hermione hugs and kisses Harry and what not but u shouldn't forget that it's the film not the book and JKR writes the book so u really need to focus on what it says in the book.
2)U also shouldn't ignore the fact that, yeah Harry gets really worried when Ginny and Hermione are injured and he doesn't want them to die but it doesn't mean that he "loves" either of them simply because thats a normal feeling if a friend is injured. Wouldn't u be worried if it happened to ur friend of the opposite sex? Does that mean that u have a crush on him/her? It's normal for a guy and girl to be good friends! Come on!
U've taken it all too seriously! I think JKR is going to surprise us with smthg about the love stuff. It ain't gonna be what we expect.
How about Ron and Pansy Parkinson? JK

I can't believe I didn't get it earlier. Sometimes I'm blind but hey there is hope.

Now I was debatting on FAP and guess what? I saw it? I saw another image possibile the strangest I can think of.

Right its starts everything with PS/SS. Do you still know how Harry, Ron did become friend with Hermione?
I guess you can its was after Harry and Ron knocked out a 12 feet high Troll after that we could read this sentence:

But from that moment, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is on of them.

So thats how Harry, Ron and Hermione became friends.

Now OotP guess what have we here? A giant.

Harry rescued Hermione from a twenty foot high giant. This one is bigger as the troll, right? And there is only Harry and Hermione, right? Right now comes my thinking.

If knocking out a 12 foot troll create friendship than should a 20 foot high giant create love? Shouldn't it? If we see it logical and it is!

12 is lower as 20, liking is lower as loving and only Harry rescue Hermione at this point.

Thats a image.

EDIT: :welcome: harryandchopotter to this thread but could you please write "You" and not "U" because here are some people who don't speak english in native language. I'm one of them. Thanks

Good evening everyone, or to those in the UK and anywhere else, if your in America then i'm guessing its late afternoon, right?
Anyway, i haven't really written that much because not really had much to say to be honest, well now that Alia has joined HMS Heron Daveydee won't be on his own defending R/Hr as iv notice over the last few days, awww poor Daveydee, hats off to you for carrying on though :clap: Whats happened to all the other Heron'ers? where have they gone?
Anyway :welcome: Alia, just one very pointless thing i wanted to add before i return to my lurking abored the HMS Harmony.
The Yule Brawl being proof because there was major tension on both R/Hr's part. Ron being ****** that Viktor Krum was escorting her, Hermione not liking Fleur Delacour, the same girl Ron fancied, for no real reason at all...I think we all know what I am implying.
I agree that Ron was ****** about Viktor Krum taking Hermione to the ball, but what i don't agree on is that Hermione disliked Fleur for no reason, think about what Fluer said during Dumbledores speech (don't have my books i'm afraid) but she was certainly very rude and Hermione resented that, of course because i don't have my books its very differcult to proove what i'm trying to say. but i feel, and you don't have to agree, that Hermione disliked Fluers attitude from the start its a (and i'm going to be blasted with the anchor for even mentioning this word) 'coincidence' that Ron likes her and Hermione doesn't. :scared:

Personally I am growing weary of this whole Harry/Hermione/Ron/Ginny/Neville/Luna debate, point is any one of you could be wrong and we won't know who is right until JKR writes it. I know full and well what I say is going to have no bearing on the arguments here, but I am just saying everyone should take it down a few notches and not get insulting to eachother, with snide remarks such as "could you show where it says that in the books?". So I am starting a completely new ship of my own so everyone can argue all they want and my vews will not be effected.


I christen a new ship, the HMS Wibby (Winky/Dobby).

Nuh-uh. Not cool. Ron and Pansy?

NO SLYTHERINS WITH OUR BELOVED GRYFFS, RAVENS, OR HUFFS!!!

**goes into a corner and silently loses it**

Just kidding. Great points, harryandchopotter. I agree. Concern for a friend does not mean it's eros (hey, evaluna!) love.

R/Hr is and has been one sided, at this point.
Quite unlike H/Hr, which is and will be none-sided.

<snip>with snide remarks such as "could you show where it says that in the books?
Nothing snide about that. Unlike this:

If you don't like the debate - don't visit the thread.

- which could be construed as snide.

EDIT:
:rotfl: @ FP's post - why didn't we see it earlier.

HMS Wibby i will join that, but then Winky cries alot (just like Cho, ooh it that a pattern?) and Dobby has little sympathy for her (just like Harry, hey look another pattern) Wow Harry and Cho mirror Dobby and Winky i think its fate.

And Pansy doesn't like Ron she likes Harry anyway (purely a guess)

Personally I am growing weary of this whole Harry/Hermione/Ron/Ginny/Neville/Luna debate, point is any one of you could be wrong and we won't know who is right until JKR writes it. I know full and well what I say is going to have no bearing on the arguments here, but I am just saying everyone should take it down a few notches and not get insulting to eachother, with snide remarks such as "could you show where it says that in the books?". So I am starting a completely new ship of my own so everyone can argue all they want and my vews will not be effected.


I christen a new ship, the HMS Wibby (Winky/Dobby).
You know what? I think I like that. Let's get some Kleenex and hats for Winky.

All Aboard The Hms Wibby!

Quite unlike H/Hr, which is and will be none-sided.

Clairvoyent are we? Will be none-sided?

Unless youre Miss Cleo, a proven seer, or JKR herself. I'll stick to canon, thanks.
Now if you say H/Hr is and has been none-sided, to this point. Then, hey, Go for it I won't argue that it hasn't been none-sided.

Notice how I said, R/Hr is and has been one-sided. I may believe in H/Hr and want it to happen but I don't believe it to be set in stone, or in this case set in text as we don't know what is to be written. As I am not clairvoyent all I can claim is a network of instances and events that lay a steady groundwork for that which could become a H/Hr romantic relationship no more, no less.

Clairvoyent are we? Will be none-sided?
A prediction, I believe; as we are, after all, in the Predictions and Theories forum.

Quite unlike H/Hr, which is and will be none-sided.


Nothing snide about that. Unlike this:

If you don't like the debate - don't visit the thread.

- which could be construed as snide.

EDIT:
:rotfl: @ FP's post - why didn't we see it earlier.

Well thats a little un-called for. Still though, HMS Wibby all the way. How can you argue how much Dobby cares for Winky? Even though she obviously finds him a bit odd (but then again he is).

Okay, Hermes, valid point.

It's a little late, but when I said Yule Ball, I didn't mean THE ball, I meant all the events surrounding the ball. I should have just said GoF, so that it'd be clear.

And the tension that I noticed was the argument that Ron and Hermione had in the common room. They were both upset, but as we all know, Ron is emotional, so there was much more drama coming from his end.


Well you just said it: "...much more drama coming from his end."

Let me see if I can remember the sequence of events prior to the Yule Brawl. (I'll be paraphrasing from now on.)

Ron insults Eloise by basically saying she's not pretty enough to go to the Ball with, which upsets Hermione because Hermione thinks she's got a lovely personality. Then Ron comes to the realization that Hermione is a girl, another insult, a personal insult. (What girl wouldn't be insulted?!) So she gets angry, which is justifiable.

Then we have the Brawl, where Ron clearly is upset/jealous that Hermione has gone to the Ball with Krum, and is having a good time, while he's miserable. To make himself feel better he accuses her of betraying Harry; says that Krum only took her to the Ball to get information on Harry (meaning she's not good enough to go with to the Ball with.) All the while, a lot of people are looking at the commotion he's started.

Then JKR slyly has us and Harry come in at the end of their fight. All we know is that Hermione tells Ron that next time he should ask her to the Ball and not as last resort (or something close to that.) She turns around and leaves. Ron doesn't get the point as Harry thinks that he and Hermione got the point.

What is the point? We don't know because we don't know what the argument was about. (I could only imagine.) It could be Hermione telling Ron to ask her out, but is it really? Why weren't there any developments betweenw the R/Hr relationship in OoP is that was the point? Do we have to wait until there's another Ball?

I, obviously, don't think it has anything to do with Hermione liking Ron since I'm an H/Hr'er, but I admit I was anticipating something between Ron and Hermoine in OoP (mainly on Ron's behalf) and was disappointed that nothing happened.

Argus Filch :love: Arabella Figg

Ahh, thats true love...

Lets look at the facts, Dobby and Winky have been friends from at least some time before book four. Dobby obviously cares very much for Winky, as we can not in his discussion with Harry when he first mentions the Room of Requirment, and how he helps Winky when she is drunk.

Now Winky on the other hand thinks Dobby is a disgraced elf. She is also usually drunk from what we can interpert, and still upset over the fates of her old masters. I find it a little mean spirited that Winky can't appreciate how great an elf Dobby is being.

However if you ask me, there is still a foundation upon which Dobby and Winky could come together. They would be the worlds first free House elf family, couldn't you just see them living like people, not elves. And I am sure Harry would visit them every so often. This could make one great sitcom!

wahsup86 good point! :clap: i never thought about them being the first free family! and JK does make racism a point in her books so its highly possible

About that song, "Weasley is Our King", now this is just my personal interpretation, but I think it was, in fact, Luna who re-wrote the lyrics to that song so it would help and not hurt. The version the Gryffindors were singing after they won the cup was designed by her. And that was the reason she was singing it under her breath on Valentine's day (as a side note: Did you notice exactly where her mind was in this scene?) It was because either she had already rewritten it, or was in the process of rewriting it in her head at the time. So she effectively took something an enemy threw at him, and instead of throwing back her own insult at the attacker, she instead transformed the bad into good. This tactic she uses is one of the major reasons I like Luna.

As to her disliking Fleur...Hermione disliked her the moment she laughed during Dumbledore's speech. That was the first impression Hermione got from Fleur, lack of respect for others and a smug attitude. From that moment on Fleur did nothing but reinforce that really, so...there you go. See Hawks previous posts about this subject.

The "tension" is really one sided, and I think that the only reason there is tension is because Ron is the one bringing it not Hermione. R/Hr is and has been one sided, at this point.



You know Hermes I think that we got a clue even prior to Dumbledore's welcoming speech that Hermione wasn't impressed with Fleur.

They were standing outside and some of the Beauxbatons girls were wearing silk cloaks and shivering violently, we find out in a few paragraphs that Fleur was one of them. As I recall Hermione thought that they were being overly dramtic then as well.

Very interesting posts today FP :clap: I'll have to give them more thought after I've replied to Mad-I.
Noddwyd: nice thought on the chain. This is a bit off-topic but I love the way PJ has taken the idea of Aragorn/Arwen - symbolic of the man/elf union/alliance - and used the gift of the jewel Aragorn wears as a visual counterpoint to the ring. There are numerous palm shots of both.
Evaluna: Up until the ending of GOF I thought Draco was the most likely to reform and maybe he still is. But his gloating over Cedric's death made me think he had crossed the line to acceptance of murder and he really is a kind of Hitler Youth, DE in the making in OOTP. It seems to me that it has been set up for the Weasleys to be victorious over the Malfoys. And I wonder how the Harry/Hermione/Ron/Dumbledore vs Voldemort plays out considering Harry is the coming wizard but DD is the one Voldemort fears. Does DD die? Or is it again a bit like LOTR where DD/Gandalf leads the strategy and the kind of spiritual resistance of the good side.
EDIT: Nice idea about Luna, Noddwyd, and I can't think who else would have changed the song. It is also similar to what Hermione did with the DA coins: fashioned them after the DE tattoos. But against your argument is the fact that Gryffindor were playing Ravenclaw, Luna is in Ravenclaw and was wearing a Ravenclaw hat to support her team. And how did she get the Gryffindor supporters to start singing it?

My guess is through Ginny, although she could have done it some other way...

edit: I should probably elaborate on that. I know Ginny was playing in that game, so she couldn't lead the cheering, at least not during the game. What I meant by 'through Ginny' was that she communicated it to Ginny and then Ginny either told the other griffindors or she told Gred and Forge, who handled it from there. She also delegated Harry's problem to those two, so she might have done the same here since she couldn't do it herself. Of course that is all assuming the song did start during the game and not afterwards.

Could be. A group of Ginny's mates could have started singing it and the rest of the supporters carried it on. Perhaps JKR is simply spacing out information as she sometimes does because immediately finding out Luna had done that - against her own house - would have been too big a hint of interest in Ron.

I love the idea of Dobby and Winky! HMS Wibby! Yes, I'll board.

Anyhoo, :welcome: to the ship Alia

A big :welcome: To Alia the Ravenclaw!
Excellent job to both the HMS Heron and Chocolate. Both ships are sailing smoothly and gaining ever more speed!

I don't know why I just thought of this. I'm sure others have probably thought about this or made some connections. Anyhoo, can anyone see a Dawson's Creek scenario happening here? I mean, you've got Harry(Dawson), Ron(Pacey), and Hermione(Joey). I'm not trying to make a shipper point or anything. I just wanted to know if anyone else found the connection?

So, if we could delay this discussion for some days it would be great... And, as a matter of fact, v@sh, I'll be happy to show you that the King Cross kiss wasn't exactly a platonic one


I would like to see your view on this as a more romantic moment. I can see more of a reason why this would be considered to be more romantic than the one between R/Hr in OoTP, though I still think it in majority as 'platonic' and supporting from Hermione.


I don't know why I just thought of this. I'm sure others have probably thought about this or made some connections. Anyhoo, can anyone see a Dawson's Creek scenario happening here? I mean, you've got Harry(Dawson), Ron(Pacey), and Hermione(Joey). I'm not trying to make a shipper point or anything. I just wanted to know if anyone else found the connection?


Nice catch there Fairydust, there are plenty of other shows in which is there is a connection like this. As I posted before I made the same connection with Rugrats, even though there was no Hermione mainly cos they were babies :) . Anyway you've got Harry (Tommy), Ron (Chuckie - both have red hair), Fred and George (Phil and Lil). Notice that the way the characters are played in Rugrats are also similar to that of HP. This is a little OT for the romance thread but just pointing out some similarities.

Also if we go by Fairydust's example it looks to turn out like Harry/Hermione (Dawson/Joey) relationship. Everyone else seems to see them two have something special. I know your not trying to make a shipper point or anything because Dawson's Creek is different from the HP story and I agree there, just like to point that out anyway :D .


Could be. A group of Ginny's mates could have started singing it and the rest of the supporters carried it on. Perhaps JKR is simply spacing out information as she sometimes does because immediately finding out Luna had done that - against her own house - would have been too big a hint of interest in Ron


This theory is plausible, of course we're not going to know exactly how the song actually began but if Luna was the initiator it could be another hint towards her interest in Ron. She has been singing 'Weasley is our King' many times throughout the school terms, and who knows she could of been thinking up an alternative song during all them times she was singing it. We also know that Luna isn't afraid to support other houses as well, except Slytherin, everyone dislikes them one way or another.

EDIT: To Fabiana: Take as long as you need to finish the essay, no need to rush and I'm sure your essay will be of excellent quality as always :)

Hi everybody,

harryandchopotter :welcome:. You actually made a wonderful choice on your ship ;)

FP, I loved the troll x giant comparison. It makes perfect sense and it has a great symbolic meaning.

noddwyd and Turambar:

noddwyd: I loved your theory. Turambar was surely right when he mentioned that it was a Gryffindor x Ravenclaw match and that Luna was supporting her house. But even though, I believe she was the one that started singing "Weasley is our king".

You know, the great thing about Luna is that she doesn't really care of what people think of her. There are many quotes in the book that prove this. Remember when Parvati and Lavender were making fun of her because she was wearing a pair of orange radishes as earrings (Ootp, chapter 13) or in the last chapter when she is looking for her missing things... she clearly stated that she doesn't care if people think she is loony.

I believe that, in the heat of the game, when she saw the guy she fancies (this is the prediction thread, right DD?) finally playing well and defending his team... she started singing at the Ravenclaw stand it and the Gryffindors caught the song and started singing too.

(As a matter of fact, starting to sing "the enemy song" in her own house stands to cheer the guy she likes sounds pretty much like Luna to me - I definitely like her)

Well gotta go, I hope you all have a good night.

See you tomorrow.

EDIT: v@sh, I'm traveling tomorrow, but I'll be back on Sunday... Maybe Tuesday I'll have the essay finished. I hope I won't let you down.

Hey all! I've been reading about two pages worth of posts just now, and they're really good. Hehe. I'm writing a rather long post hopefully for tomorrow if I have time. Also, Winky and Dobby would be really cute! *grins*

Also, if Luna is so hot for Ron, (which, by the way, I don't deny the possibility of) why is she singing Weasley is our King (a personally insulting song directed at Ron, talking about him being born in a bin and such)? How is that an indication of a crush? She's singing a song deliberately made up to hurt and humiliate Ron. If this is explained away by "Well, Luna is a bit -- strange," then the argument that she's simply singing the song because she likes the tune and NOT Ron should stand as well. If that makes sense


The song may have been insulting to Ron yes, but does Luna actually continue the lyrics to the extend she actually also sings about him being born in a bin etc? I don't think she does if my memory serves me correct. If she is deliberately singing the song to hurt and humiliate Ron, Ron does not at all seem phased by it and does not clearly show any signs of dislike towards her (e.g. we don't see any glaring or snorting towards Luna but more quizzical looks because of her strangeness etc.), he only finds her a little strange, nothing wrong with that is there? And yes the last part makes sense, and it is valid she could just like the song from the tune, but why sing it when you could just humm it if you liked the tune? I don't think theres any implication in the text at all that makes Luna look as if she is motivated to hurt or humiliate Ron in any way.

Also, if Luna is so hot for Ron, (which, by the way, I don't deny the possibility of) why is she singing Weasley is our King (a personally insulting song directed at Ron, talking about him being born in a bin and such)?

Luna did not sing the whole song. She just said "Weasley is our King". Also, Luna never said anything bad about Ron let alone just about anybody else.

honestly, how can anyone believe Luna would insult Ron? She wear a lion hat for crying out loud. She is clear supportly to Ron. She is in the DA. Ever she is not romantic interest in Ron(it is very clear to me), she is at the very least friendly to Ron.

:welcome: to Ali the Ravenclaw

:welcome: Back to Hermes. Long time no see.

:clap: to Turambar, FP, evaluna and Fabiana, v@sh, and sone.

:clap: to Haycheng (neutral of course)

Now on to topic,

Fairydust
That saying reminds me of something I saw on the OC last week but that's another talk. Anyhoo, what I think Mad-I Moody's getting at is that two very strong willed individuals with very strong personalities and ideas clash. I wouldn't want to see a relationship where there is one very strong dominant person and one weak person. However, with two very strong people with very strong ideas and opinions something's got to give. With Harry and Hermione I can't see them giving to each other. Not without a lot of convincing and even then there'd be a little skepticism there. Does that make sense?
To be honest no. But it really comes down to personal opinion so I’ve given mine and Mad I Moody has hers.
The thing about the relationship of Ron and Hermione is that we don't really know about them. We only know what Harry sees. There are times where Ron and Hermione aren't together with Harry and those moments could be the moments where something romantic or whatnot happens between them. Maybe Ron gave her gift when they were on prefect duty? Maybe the perfume Ron got smelled bad so Hermioen didn't wear it. There're a lot of maybe's and none them can be answered until we hear it straight from JK's mouth or it comes from the next books.
While I agree on the maybe’s, I disagree with the rest. You see when JKR writes she leaves clues and this is what makes her plot twists both enjoyable and believable. It is the mark of a great writer. When a poor writer writes they explain their twists in the old it happened off stage theory. This robs from the story. I don’t buy this whole offstage theory. To me it’s an attempt to create things that are not there to continue to see Hr/R. Like it or not Hr/R took a slide in OotP after it was supposed to be established in Gof. Why? Like you said we have to wait for JKR to explain that. However I see this offstage theory as nothing more than a attempt to create things that just aren’t there. Had Ron given her a Valentine’s gift we would have known.

I don't think that Luna actually knew that the Gryffindor's had quidditch practice either. Luna's very odd and could have probably just been singing the tune. Is there any other instance where she's singing Weasley is Our King?
But to me its interesting that JKR tied Luna with Ron on Valentine’s Day. And that Luna knew where Ron was at, Quiddich practice as tied in by the song.

Daveydee

It does seem odd, doesn't it. To the point, in fact, that it is in itself significant, IMO. I mean, I'm sure when we were all reading the book and saw that Valentine's day was going to feature, we all thought that something would occur involving Ron and Hermione on that occassion, whether positive or negative. But nothing, other than the fact that neither had a date. I mean JK could have dropped in some completely ambiguous scene which, if nothing else, could have served as another iron in the fire of the great shipping debate. Or is there some significance in the notion that attention is drawn to the fact that both Ron and Hermione were otherwise preoccupied on Valentines Day? I feel that there might be. Valentines Day - of all the days JK could have chosen. Almost as though JK is asking us to say 'Now, if Ron wasn't busy with Quidditch and Hermione wasn't busy with Rita.....'

If it was a singular incident then it would be more interesting. But since it is a pattern of missed then it is not so interesting. In short a miss at Christmas and a miss at Valentine’s Day. But my point was more why do we assume that Ron was in practice for 24+ hours that he missed the whole day.

No - I view it merely as anticipation of resolution either way. The original point was in response to Hawk92's suggestion that Valentines Day was a missed opportunity for JK to draw attention to R/Hr if that is her intended romantic route. I'm saying that by not having any R/Hr interaction on Valentines Day by virtue of the fact that both were otherwise engaged, that in itself draws attention.
Or one can view it as the continuation of the one sidedness of the whole Hr/R. In short Ron>>>>>>> Hermione but Hermione does not return those feelings. As hinted at by the reaction to the Christmas gifts, which is then given its resolution at Valentine’s Day. Ron has seen the light and now knows that Hermione does not have romantic feelings for him.

To be honest I don’t see a resolution, one way or the other, on Valentines Day. I did not anticipate any resolution in this book. The only way I would anticipate some kind of resolution would be if we were told at the beginning of the school year that there was to be another Yule Ball. Then I would anticipate resolution, positive or negative.

Mad I Moody

Sorry. I have to disagree with your view on Harry and Hermione working together. I think that we have seen many instances in OotP when Harry and Hermione relied on each other’s common strengths and saw instances when Harry and Hermione complemented each other quite nicely. We could agree to disagree or I could say, Madam I await and begin a duel with the customary

I’m your Huckleberry

And I also disagree with your interpretation of Ron/Luna and the Weasley is our King. I think that Luna was making up the positive verses to Weasley is our King under her breath and she started singing them to encourage Ronald.

To All:

I think its time to repost the much beloved Draught of Peace/ Chocolate Egg Theory :eyebrows:

Ummm haycheng You really hated this theory. Mind if I ask why?

Cheers!

Nah, she's not the type to insult someone anyway. She was singing "Weasley is our King" in a good way, not to be insulting to him, even if it might have looked that way at the time to Harry, Hermione, and the readers. She's just too lost in her thoughts to be able to realize how she affects those around her with what she says. Either that, or she doesn't care what people think about her all that much. It is certainly evident where her thoughts were on Valentine's Day, though.

To Hawk
I just dislike theory that can not be prove one way or the other. Moreoever, the theory has little chance to be proved by JKR. The DA teacher is gone and I doubt Snape will tell Harry. Moreover, The witch is not in the library in order to heard Harry's secret.

I would rather stick with just the chocolate.
Ginny is a nice listener.
Ginny is a nice change from Hermione.
Harry is interested in Ginny(yet right :evil: , I am very sure it has low possibilty)
To me, this theory is as bad as R/Hr date behind Harry's back theory.

Ref: Ron and Hermione's 'non-date' on Valentines Day

Or one can view it as the continuation of the one sidedness of the whole Hr/R. In short Ron>>>>>>> Hermione but Hermione does not return those feelings.
But that is not how it is. There was no R >> Hr interaction on Valentine's Day. No comment. Nothing. Not, IMO, satisfactorily explained by:
As hinted at by the reaction to the Christmas gifts, which is then given its resolution at Valentine’s Day. Ron has seen the light and now knows that Hermione does not have romantic feelings for him.
Hermione's reaction to Ron's Xmas gift doesn't apppear to me to hint at anything, other than her gratitude for it. Nor is it credible, IMO, that JK will spend a number of books creating feelings between Ron and Hermione (whether you view them as one-sided or mutual), just for that to dissolve away to nothing. Some poignant or explosive or comical or dramatic or whatever type of scene in which the R/Hr (or R>Hr, if you're of that mind) situation is resolved, whether in acceptance or rejection, would surely make for a far more satisfying read. But to just let it evaporate? Nah - don't buy it.

Daveydee: what's your take on Hermione's use of the word "unusual" in this context:

"I think a lot of people will be wondering whether there isn't a better explanation of what happened, and if there's an alternative story available, even if it is published in a-" she glanced sideways at Luna, "in a - well, an unusual magazine - I think they might be rather keen to read it." - P502 Ch The Beetle At Bay, Bloomsbury edition.

Now we know that Hermione previously had this to say about the Quibbler:
"Anything good in there?" asked Ron as Harry closed the magazine.
"Of course not," said Hermione scathingly, before Harry could answer. "The Quibbler's rubbish, everyone knows that."
"Excuse me," said Luna ... "My father's the editor."
"I - oh," said Hermione, looking embarrassed. "Well ... it's got some interesting ... I mean, it's quite ..." - P175 Ch Luna Lovegood, Bloomsbury edition.

In the scene above she is trying to be nice to Luna because her father has agreed to publish Harry's story. With her use of the word "unusual" isn't she trying to be diplomatic and inoffensive about something she doesn't care for?

Hi all. Newbie here, although I've been lurking for months now on you all. Anyway, I just wanted to give my two knuts as to who Harry falls for eventually. I ship H/Hr for the simple reason being JKR seems to be stealthily developing the relationship between Harry and Hermione. It seems sort of three-dimensional. With Ron and Hermione's attraction to each other (if there is one) a bit too transparent, I couldn't help but think that it is odd that JKR is emphasizing a little too much of the two's supposed relationship or future relationship. In contrast, I won't feel sad at all if it really is Ron who's destined to be with Hermione. But, I really have this suspicion that it's "not what we think" and "not what we expect" so I decided to go H/Hr.

Posted by Mad-I Moody
I'm not really trying to say that, no. I think that relationships require a certain amount of give and take, leading and following - and it seems that, at times, Harry and Hermione have clashed in their ideas of what the appropriate course of action might be. In the DOM scene, they seem to work well together, but it isn't a give-and-take, IMO. Harry is completely the leader in the DOM, because he is the one who had the dreams about it, and he is the one who knows which way to go. Now, I'm not sure about this, but it isn't a far stretch to imagine that, had Hermione begun to be the "leader" at some point in the DOM before she is rendered unconscious, I think that Harry would have had some serious difficulty "deferring" to her. He has enough difficulty "deferring" to her suggestion that he try to contact Sirius before gallavanting off to London.


It's true that it is Harry who is the catalyst for the group being in the DOM. He is also the one who 'knows the way' because of his dreams and having been to the ministry before.
But if we go back to the period after he has his dream about Sirius - which is effectively where this sequence starts, that's when the group of six forms - it is very much about Harry and Hermione jointly working things out and the others following their lead.

They have a very intense debate about what to do while Ron and later the others pretty much look on; Harry gives Hermione time to institute a plan to allow him to speak to Sirius; they both go into Umbridge's office together; Hermione comes up with a scheme to get them out and get rid of Umbridge; at the DOM Hermione marks the doors they've looked through; she draws Harry away from the veil; Harry comes up with the scheme to escape the DEs which he passes on to Hermione and she tells the others; they each take out DEs threatening the other, Hermione accios Harry's wand for him.

They do get intense in their discussions but their respect for each other remains. If we look at an earlier example of their team-work, the time-turner scenes in POA there's good examples of give and take, leading and following:

"We'll run for it," said Harry determinedly. "Straight into the forest, all right? We'll have to hide behind a tree or something and keep a lookout-" "OK, but we'll go round by the greenhouses," said Hermione breathlessly. "We need to keep out of sight of Hagrid's front door or we'll see us."

"Harry, I don't understand what Dumbledore wants us to do. Why did he tell us to go back three hours?" ... "Hermione, we're going to save Buckbeak." "But - how will that help Sirius?" ... "We've got to fly Buckbeak up to the window and rescue Sirius. Sirius can escape on Buckbeak."

"Now?" Harry whispered. "No," said Hermione. "If we steal him now, those committee people will think Hagrid set him free."

"Harry what do you think you'd do if you saw yourself bursting into Hagrid's house?" said Hermione. "I'd - I'd think I'd gone mad," said Harry, "or I'd think there was some dark Magic going on-" "Exactly. You wouldn't understand, you might even attack yourself."

"Wait here," Harry whispered to Hermione. "I'll do it."

"Stop," he whispered to Hermione. "They might hear us."

"Now what?" whispered Harry, looking around. "We'll have to hide in here," said Hermione.

Neither minds deferring to the other, asking the other to make a decision or taking an order from the other. They do snap at each other at times when debating what to do, but they don't row. A strength of the H/Hr relationship is the fact that they can express contrary opinions to each other and make the other think. They both bring a lot to the table.

Considering the "could-have-beens" of many scenes can go whichever way a shipper may wish. So why didn't Ron buy Hermione a V-day gift? Well, why didn't Harry? Why didn't Hermione buy either of them a gift? Why didn't Harry buy Cho a gift - we know he liked her. I don't see how the scene between Rita, Hermione, Luna, and Harry is a development of H/Hr or showing their "closeness." There are two other people with them, one of whom Harry and Hermione both dislike greatly. There are H/Hr moments that "could have been" written in a variety of places, but were not. Why is that? Well, I don't know. Why is Hermione's letter to Harry in PoA full of mentions of Ron? Why do Ron and Hermione have a big to-do over the Yule Ball while Harry remains indifferent? Why is Harry coupled with a girl (Cho), who is pretty, and popular, and good at his favorite sport - seemingly an opposite of Hermione? Why is it Hermione who is petrified in CoS and Ginny who is taken by Riddle and not the other way around?
And, like I was arguing earlier, why wasn't the DOM scene written in such a way to indicate more depth of feeling from Harry to Hermione? Why do we see a similar reaction from Harry when he is faced with the possible death of Ginny? When he is faced with the dead body of Cedric Diggory?


For a start the giving of gifts is only one way of indicating interest. And one gesture may not involve the same conotations as another. The basic question to look at is where is the romantic build-up and between whom?
Accepting that Valentine's Day is the day of romance, it would be a sitter for JKR to create moments to help build a relationship along the road to romance. What we are basically after is something of significance happening on Valentine's Day. But let's look at Valentine's Day in OOTP in the context of the series:

a) We know Harry has had a crush on Cho and something significant happens between them on Valentine's Day, they have a date. Why would Harry or Hermione buy each other gifts when Harry is working through his crush on Cho? But it's interesting that she's very quick to keep on top of how the Harry/Cho relationship is going: asking questions and not allowing Harry to slip back into being secretive about it.

b) Harry and Hermione at this stage have a developing friendship but a lot of H/Hr shippers believe there are signs she is aware of having feelings for Harry in OOTP. Harry and Hermione get together in Hogsmeade on Valentine's Day after Harry's date with Cho goes wrong.

JKR, without doubt, has mirrored the jealous reactions and suspicions of Krum to Harry over Hermione in GOF with those of Cho to Harry over Hermione in OOTP. These are carefully planned parts of the plot. The author has to lay some tracks towards a future romance for that romance to have any resonance. And yet she is trying to do it subtley, with hints.

H/Hr shippers see H/Hr as the final pairing if it happens rather than a passing attraction so there's no problem to us with Harry's crush on Cho. On your sentence about Cho: Hermione has been described as "pretty" by Harry so she isn't opposite to Cho in that way. And do I need to point out that Cho wasn't right for Harry? So your point is?

I don't know what the significance to shipping there is of Hermione being petrified and Ginny taken into the chamber except that a) Hermione still helped Harry solve the chamber mystery and b) what happened to Ginny was so personally significant to Harry that he forgot about it. Dumbledore, if I remember, said the diary was planted on Ginny to damage Arthur Weasley and put his Muggle protection act at risk. Hermione is Muggle born, Mudbloods were targeted. I think these events have significance to the overall plot rather than shipping.

c) Luna sings Weasley is our King at the meeting with Harry/Hermione/Rita which at least shows she has thoughts of Ron and quidditch - Ron was at quidditch practice - on Valentine's Day. A subtle way of indicating her interest in him.

d) Nothing at all happens between Ron and Hermione and Harry and Ginny on Valentine's Day.

With Hermione's letter in POA, surely the most significant aspect of it is the care and effort she put into selecting, ordering and fussing over Harry's present. Just on the reference to Ron in Egypt: "I bet he's learning loads, I'm really jealous - the ancient Egyptian wizards were fascinating." Yeah, right: I'm sure he'd be "learning loads". Hermione is thinking about herself there, what she would do in Egypt. So on the one hand she demonstrates her understanding of Harry by getting him something she knew he would love - the broomstick servicing kit - and on the other her differences with Ron. I don't see that letter as a missed H/Hr moment at all.

On the Yule Brawl: Ron's reactions to hearing about Ginny's boyfriends are quite similar to his YB reaction though less extreme, suggesting his feelings were more about possessiveness than anything else. And I simply don't agree with you about the DOM but other people have argued that.

Let's say she has some romantic feelings for Ron. But Hagrid, whom she also cares about greatly (and we know that she truly cares about him a lot - she slaps Malfoy for something he says about Hagrid, yet she merely ignore, and who has been showing up looking as if he has been mauled by a terrible creature, yet continually refuses to tell them (the trio) what is happening to him, suddenly comes up and implores Harry AND Hermione to go with him. Liking Ron or not liking Ron, it is entirely against the nature of our inquisitive and concerned Hermione to say "Harry, you go and tell me what happens later. I need to sit here and watch Gryffindor get pummled at a sport I really don't even care much about, and, besides, I don't really need to know what's going on with Hagrid right now. I mean, it can't be anything that important, can it? Surely not as important as Quidditch? Cuts and bruises? Oh, they aren't that bad, really." It does make sense that she would get up and go with Hagrid regardless of her feelings for Ron, simply based on the facts that a) he asked her to, and told them it was important, b) Hermione is inquisitive and wants to know things and c) Obviously, whatever is going on with Hagrid (him being hurt, coming to them and telling them that it is important that they come with him not, him being in danger of being sacked) is more important on any day of the week than the Quidditch match.


Okay so what you're saying is she puts Hagrid's needs before Ron's needs. I can accept she does that but it still isn't good for R/Hr whichever way you look at it or try to explain it.

Maybe because Harry going after a wizard whom she believes to be out to kill Harry and missing Ron's match are on two different levels of intensity. Maybe because Harry is always in the more "intense" situations. But let's take two events around the same level of intensity - missing Ron's game and Harry not being made prefect. When Hermione and Harry are alone, she doesn't reach out to him at all - literally or figuratively. We don't ever hear her say "Oh, Harry, I'm so sorry." Or "I'm sorry you didn't make prefect, I really thought you would. We all did." She asks to use his owl. When they have to tell Ron that they have missed the game, Hermione steps up to say that she's really really sorry and she offers him her hand. Harry isn't the one to say that they're really really sorry and that they didn't want to leave but they had to - it's Hermione. Is this one of those scenes that we should look at the way it could have been written?


I'm missing something here. To me the scene after Harry dips out on being prefect is one of the loveliest scenes in the book and has a much greater level of emotional sensitivity about it than the scene where Hermione (along with Harry) simply feels guilty about missing Ron's match.

a) The prefect scene clearly showed that Hermione expected Harry to be made prefect, was overjoyed at the idea, was shocked and disappointed that Ron was made prefect instead.

Picture that scene: Harry and Hermione spend quite a while in total silence watching on as Molly congratulates Ron and talks to the twins. Everyone is happy except Harry and Hermione. Surely if Hermione had feelings for Ron, he would be the one she would be overjoyed for.

Do you not think it is significant and deliberate on the part of JKR that she compares Hermione's shriek of joy at believing Harry has been made prefect with Molly's shriek of joy at Ron becoming prefect? Of course we know that Molly has reason to be happy for Ron, he's her son. So doesn't the comparison suggest Hermione's feelings (for Harry) are very intense? And then after all that we get this achingly sad scene where Harry and Hermione don't know what to say to each other. I just don't think the post-quidditch scene compares.

b) You're making a big thing of Hermione's pacifying, calming movement of her hand towards Ron. How does that remotely compare in importance to the various instances of Hermione clinging to Harry in OOTP? Not to mention the hug near the beginning.

"I think a lot of people will be wondering whether there isn't a better explanation of what happened, and if there's an alternative story available, even if it is published in a-" she glanced sideways at Luna, "in a - well, an unusual magazine - I think they might be rather keen to read it." - P502 Ch The Beetle At Bay, Bloomsbury edition.

Very good spoted Turambar. Its interesting in general that JKR do bring up the same use of words in connection to Hermione. I try it to make it more clear what I mean just look at the scene with "The slightley smile" its debatteable what kind of smile it is but if I take another example where JKR use the same words for describe an action than you start to wonder "How does JKR mean that smile!" I mean look if JKR describe that Lupin smiled slightley at Mrs. Weasley as it was about dead what does it means if she describe Hermiones smile at the moment as it was about Cho as even slightley? This don't sound happy or brightley what JKR didn't even describe. She didn't write "She said brightley with a slightley smile." This would explain how it was to mean but there isn't such a describtion.

Thats with this quote a little bit different because its now not anylonger JKR describtion is rather what and how does Hermione mean it if she use "Unusual!" maybe this example explain why H/Hr think this word wasn't mean to be nice rather it was to mean diplomatic. This say in reality she don't think high if she use this word. Now this fit with Hermiones character if she like something than she say it clearly and not like "This is unusual!" thats for sure not how she appears in canon. People keep saying Hermione mean it as if its a great present but if she think its great than she did say it but if its rather the badest thing she ever got than she won't say it.

Thats how we get know her. There are more as one example where Hermione tried not to hurt other one feelings. In COS about Myrtle she tried to pretend she didn't say bad things about her. In OotP or GoF or PoA as it come to Hagrid if she speaks with Harry. In OotP about this magazine and at least as it come to Ron and this famous gift.

She isn't honest at this moment but still not that much lying as if she did say "Its so great!"

Hermione doesn't like to lie: she's got angry at Harry in the past when she's caught him out with a lie.
In POA Harry lies to her about going to Hogsmeade and doesn't feel any guilt. In GOF he lies to her about the Lake Task egg and feels guilty. In OOTP he can't even look at her when he's not telling the truth.
He's become more concerned about her opinion. And I noticed this little parallel with James, just a little one:
"What is it with her [Lily]," said James, trying and failing to look as though this was a throwaway question of no real importance to him.'
Then a bit later the twins reveal Harry wants to talk to Sirius and he gets all concerned about Hermione's reaction.
"She says you need to talk to Sirius?"
"What?" said Hermione sharply...
"Yeah," said Harry, trying to sound casual, "Yeah, I thought I'd like -'
"Don't be so ridiculous," said Hermione...
They just show that Lily's opinion/attitude mattered to James and and same with Harry and Hermione. Of course Harry still goes ahead and talks to Sirius.

Just another thought about the "really unusual perfume" and Hermione who is after R/Hr supposed to like Ron.

On their way downstairs they met Hermione.
"Thanks for the book, Harry," she said happily. "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerlogy for ages! And that perfume's really unusual, Ron."


I did quote the first sentence for a reason and thats to show that Ron and Harry came down together. Its for me interesting that Hermione choice Harry.
I need to explain if Hermione has feelings for someone than we should expect she does directly turn to the one she like, right? And not as an after thought. Thats what through the whole books happens. Hermione turns nearlly always first to Harry and than to Ron. Don't tell me is because Harry is the hero of this story thats a simple action for Hermione what comes in a instinctly way. You turns to the one who is for you more important. Like a child turns directly to the mother.
This happens that often and that naturally that we don't wonder about it but Hermione turns first to Harry. Tells him first how she wanted that book and thanks him before she turn to Ron and tells him like an afterthought.
Now you say why didn't Ron say something if it was like that and Hermione did mean "Unusual!" as not liking? Simple Ron is used at this. He is used to come after Harry by Hermione. This unusual part its nothing bad with this word as long you aren't in a bad mood and I'm sure if Ron were at this moment in a bad mood he did tell her that she didn't like it...

Good point FP. If you're keen on someone you notice them and think about them first. At the very least by mentioning and praising Harry's gift first and without qualification she shows she rated it above Ron's gift. She kind of praises Harry's gift twice - thanking him and then telling him she had really wanted it - before mentioning Ron's. What you said reminded me of the COS movie. There was all that fuss about the non-hug but it was curious how they had Hermione running to Harry first, bypassing her supposed 'crush'.

:welcome: Godrics_Heiress

Good points there Turambar and flyingphoenix. Particulary about Hermione's use of the word unusual and noticing Harry first.

haycheng

I just dislike theory that can not be prove one way or the other.

Just for the record if it can be proven one way or the other, then it is not a theory to me. Theories that can be proven are cannon law and theories that are proven to be wrong are simply because I want to see it. I try not to submit theories based on what I want to see.

Moreoever, the theory has little chance to be proved by JKR. The DA teacher is gone and I doubt Snape will tell Harry.

I don’t agree with this entirely. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Umbridge. I think that she will be making a reappearance in book 6 or 7. Then we will see.

Moreover, The witch is not in the library in order to heard Harry's secret.

I don’t think that Umbridge would tail Ginny herself. Too noticeable for a teacher to be following a student around. She would probably have had Ginny tailed by a member of her Squad who would then let her know when Harry had eaten the chocolate. Vertiserum doesn’t wear off immediately. And no one would be suspicious of a Slytherin student walking around the halls

I would rather stick with just the chocolate.

So if it’s the chocolate in any way, shape, or form, what is the difference if it is the chocolate or if the chocolate has the Draught of Peace in it? It would still take away from this whole H/G scene.

Ginny is a nice listener.

I didn’t really get this from that moment but sure why not.

Ginny is a nice change from Hermione.

I really didn’t get this in the text.

Harry is interested in Ginny(yet right , I am very sure it has low possibilty)

I’m very sure as well.

To me, this theory is as bad as R/Hr date behind Harry's back theory

Ouch. :sad: I don’t think its that bad. At least the clues that I used are not off stage. They are established in text. :D

Daveydee

Turambar and flyingphoenix addressed this better but I’ll add briefly.

Hermione's reaction to Ron's Xmas gift doesn't apppear to me to hint at anything, other than her gratitude for it

One could take notice of Flyingphoenix and Turambar’s posts. Then one could notice that Hermione fails to even say thanks. That Hermione goes from gushing all over Harry’s gift to simply saying that it was an unusual perfume. There is a sudden and drastic change in her whole attitude to the gifts. From forceful and thankful to a statement and unusual. Interesting that Harry knew that she didn’t have that particular book also.

Nor is it credible, IMO, that JK will spend a number of books creating feelings between Ron and Hermione (whether you view them as one-sided or mutual), just for that to dissolve away to nothing.

I believe that there will be resolution. But that it will be that Ron’s feelings are one sided or that Ron didn’t have feelings at all. I still have my doubts as to what Ron was upset about at the Yule Ball. Also it is truly possible that in the resolution we find out that Ron may have been thinking that way but once he thought it through he reached the conclusion that Hermione and he would not have worked out, or that he never had true feelings for her, a passing phase at best perhaps, but nothing more.

Some poignant or explosive or comical or dramatic or whatever type of scene in which the R/Hr (or R>Hr, if you're of that mind) situation is resolved, whether in acceptance or rejection, would surely make for a far more satisfying read.

Some kind of resolution is in order to be sure. But I fail to see that it needs to be anything more than a simple one. It could be poignant, explosive, comical, dramatic, or whatever. But it could also be simple. Ron and Hermione have a discussion and Hermione tells Ron that she has never had feelings of that sort for him. Or it could be resolved by a simple scene such as, Harry finds out that Ron is dating Luna. Harry is of course confused because he thought that Ron liked Hermione. Ron points out that is not true and he knows that he and Hermione would not last 3 minutes together. Besides Ron points out that Hermione has been in love with Harry for some time now.

But to just let it evaporate? Nah - don't buy it.
Never said it would evaporate, I said it would never develop. And I was showing how these 2 scenes foreshadow the final resolution of the situation between Hermione and Ron. No romantic feelings or one sided at best R>>>>>>>Hr. Besides I don’t consider the Christmas gifts to be a Hr/R moment. I have a theory about it.

Cheers!

Who cares about Dobby and Winky? Doppy and Wimpy more like.
I think McGonagall and Dumbledore'd make a good couple

Also I think Ron and Luna'll get together. I think Luna likes Ron because she keeps staring at him and things esp at the beginning of OoTP. I don't think Ron has any feelings for Luna though, not at the moment anyway.
How about Tonks and Mad-eye?????
How about Elouise and Draco Malfoy?? haha

Hey one question I have is, does Umbridge work for Voldemort after all, coz she sent those Dementors and stuff. Is she a Death eater too? Why doesn't Fudge arrest her?

Hi everyone. I am short on time today, so I'm going to have to just respond to pieces of posts. Hopefully, I'll be able to get back a little later, as today will be my last day on the forums for a little while. :upset: I will be lurking and reading the thread from time to time during my hiatus, but I will not be posting for an unforeseeable amount of time.:sad:

If she is deliberately singing the song to hurt and humiliate Ron, Ron does not at all seem phased by it and does not clearly show any signs of dislike towards her (e.g. we don't see any glaring or snorting towards Luna but more quizzical looks because of her strangeness etc.), he only finds her a little strange, nothing wrong with that is there? And yes the last part makes sense, and it is valid she could just like the song from the tune, but why sing it when you could just humm it if you liked the tune? I don't think theres any implication in the text at all that makes Luna look as if she is motivated to hurt or humiliate Ron in any way.
I don't think that she was singing the song to deliberately hurt or humiliate Ron. I'm just saying that this is a song that was made up specifically to do those things, and she's singing it under her breath. I'm inclined to think that it is not as "revealing" as some say it is, because an equally likely explanation of Luna singing that song is that she has heard it over and over and over again (in the halls, etc.), and it got stuck in her head. This is just one of those things that we're going to interpret whichever way we wish. The only thing we know is that she sang the song under her breath – we don't know if this was because she was thinking of Ron, making up different lyrics, or simply because it was a catchy tune that got stuck in her head. I know that when I listened to the audio book, the line "Weasley is Our King" kept repeating itself in my head like a broken record. Anyway, these are all valid explanations, but, unfortunately, none of them can be proven one way or the other.

Turambar

H/Hr shippers see H/Hr as the final pairing if it happens rather than a passing attraction so there's no problem to us with Harry's crush on Cho. On your sentence about Cho: Hermione has been described as "pretty" by Harry so she isn't opposite to Cho in that way. And do I need to point out that Cho wasn't right for Harry? So your point is?
I think my point was that Harry's first crush – the first person we know he has been attracted to – was immediately and primarily described as very pretty. Hermione has been described as pretty at the Yule Ball (when she went to great effort to tame her hair, etc) and then, when she actively seems to "fish" for a compliment in OotP "Tell her how ugly you think I am." In any case, you are correct, Harry and Cho didn't work out. This doesn't automatically mean that Harry and Hermione will. I'm just saying that, for all we know about what Harry finds attractive, it's a pretty girl who likes/plays Quidditch. That's what we have been given so far. It might change – it might be changing over the summer – but that's what we have for now.

c) Luna sings Weasley is our King at the meeting with Harry/Hermione/Rita which at least shows she has thoughts of Ron and quidditch - Ron was at quidditch practice - on Valentine's Day. A subtle way of indicating her interest in him.
Or she just has the song in her head. See above.

Okay so what you're saying is she puts Hagrid's needs before Ron's needs. I can accept she does that but it still isn't good for R/Hr whichever way you look at it or try to explain it.
If you can accept that she is putting Hagrid's needs before Ron's in this particular instance then no, it doesn't hurt R/Hr at all. I mean, I love my boyfriend, but if a friend of mine is hurt or in trouble, I'll skip his intramural football championship to help my friend. And my boyfriend would understand that – just like Ron seems to understand when Harry and Hermione tell them why they had to leave the game ( I say this because there is no indication that he is upset about them not being there after he hears what they were doing), even if he doesn't like it.

a) The prefect scene clearly showed that Hermione expected Harry to be made prefect, was overjoyed at the idea, was shocked and disappointed that Ron was made prefect instead.
Disappointed is an interpretation that some H/Hr's have placed on to that scene. When I read it, all I can see is that she, like everyone else, was simply shocked. Not disappointed.

Picture that scene: Harry and Hermione spend quite a while in total silence watching on as Molly congratulates Ron and talks to the twins. Everyone is happy except Harry and Hermione. Surely if Hermione had feelings for Ron, he would be the one she would be overjoyed for.
Hermione is pretty quick to jump to Ron's defense when the twins ridicule him "Don’t pay any attention to them – they're just jealous." Or something like that. Why doesn't she, when given a golden opportunity to offer a hand, or maybe just say again "I'm sorry, harry. I really thought it would be you" do so when she and harry are alone together? Hermione seems to know exactly what she wants – she wants to tell her parents the good news about her. Her thoughts don't seem to be much with Harry at this point, at least from what we can tell. If she was so disappointed, I think we should have gotten an inkling of that in the instance when she and Harry were left alone together. Harry is disappointed. Hermione is shocked, but recovers in time to try and take her foot out of her mouth, to defend Ron against his brothers, and to ask Harry if she can use his owl to send a letter to her parents. After this initial scene, Hermione and Ron seems to be OK with each other being prefects together. Hermione doesn't cast a sidelong glance at Harry when it is time to do prefect duties. If she was so disappointed that he isn't a prefect with her, wouldn't there be some indication after the fact? Or did she just get over it?

b) You're making a big thing of Hermione's pacifying, calming movement of her hand towards Ron. How does that remotely compare in importance to the various instances of Hermione clinging to Harry in OOTP? Not to mention the hug near the beginning.
I'm really not trying to make a big thing out of it. All I am saying is that this is an instance in which it would have been perfectly reasonable for JKR to write Harry as the one who apologized to Ron – the one who said, Sorry mate, we didn't see the game. We didn't want to leave, but we had to." And so on and so forth. Instead, it is Hermione, and she reaches out to Ron while Harry looks on. This is a situation in which an apology and an explanation would have served. But she reaches out to him, which I think is at least remotely significant. As far as comparing this situation to the ones in which Hermione "clings" to Harry, well, it's apples and oranges. Hermione and harry have missed a Quidditch game. She reaches out to Ron. Hermione and Harry are in mortal peril – she clings to him. Harry has almost had his soul sucked out by dementors, been apprehended and expelled by the MoM, and he shows up after a summer apart, and Hermione hugs him. The situations are so completely different that it's difficult to assign them a "quantity" of significance.

Hawk

Sorry. I have to disagree with your view on Harry and Hermione working together. I think that we have seen many instances in OotP when Harry and Hermione relied on each other’s common strengths and saw instances when Harry and Hermione complemented each other quite nicely. We could agree to disagree or I could say, Madam I await and begin a duel with the customary

I’m your Huckleberry
Well, no real surprises there! :D As I am jumping ship for the time being (not in spirit, of course), I'm going to have to leave this one as agreeing to disagree, though a duel would be fun and exciting.

And I also disagree with your interpretation of Ron/Luna and the Weasley is our King. I think that Luna was making up the positive verses to Weasley is our King under her breath and she started singing them to encourage Ronald.
A valid interpretation, of course. Agreeing to disagree once again, since my interpretation of her having the song in her head is equally as valid.

So long, for now. I hope to be back once more before the day's end. :D

My intentions were to compare the two situations. In my real-life situation, the moment when my loved one was close to death, about to die, about to leave me forever, was the moment in which I realized the depth and breadth of my love.

In the fairytale situation, as well as in other non-fairytale novels and films, this scenario has been represented as such. I simply believe that it is a very common aspect of human nature to realize the fullness, or the mere existence, of your feelings for someone if the threat of them being taken from you is real and present. IMO, if Harry has been building or harboring romantic feelings for Hermione over the years, I believe that something of the sort would have been at least indicated in this scene. If he has underlying, unrealized feelings for Hermione, this is a situation that would seemingly bring them to the fore, in accordance with the nature of many human beings.

But, like I said before, this doesn't mean that H/Hr cannot develop later. I just think that this is a big indicator that Harry does not currently harbor any romantic feelings, unrealized or otherwise, toward Hermione.This is kind of a late post.Thanks Mad-I for expanding my point. You nailed my point perfectly. The DoM scene w/ Hermione being knocked out as I said earlier was a perfect situation to showcase the depth of Harry's feelings for Hermione but it wasn't. Compare Harry's reaction when Ginny was taken into the chamber.
It was probably the worst day of his life, it was the worst he ever felt. It was a very powerful emotion for someone who barely knows the girl that was taken into the chamber. I am not saying that Harry is in love w/ Ginny but I would've expect a reaction similar to the one that I emphasize for Hermione.She's his bestfriend he could've react better than a please don't be dead.It will be my fault line.

I believe that there will be resolution. But that it will be that Ron’s feelings are one sided or that Ron didn’t have feelings at all. I still have my doubts as to what Ron was upset about at the Yule Ball. Also it is truly possible that in the resolution we find out that Ron may have been thinking that way but once he thought it through he reached the conclusion that Hermione and he would not have worked out, or that he never had true feelings for her, a passing phase at best perhaps, but nothing more.

We all assume Ron's upset because he likes Hermione and is jealous, but it could be that Ron is just being over-protective, or possession, whichever vocabulary floats your boat. He could have been truly upset that she was fraternizing with the enemy, causing Hermione to tell him that next time there's a ball he should ask her first instead of as last resort so that she doesn't fraternize with the enemy and accidentally give away Harry's plans.

I think JKR has us right where she wants us: saying Ron

A possible red herring? :huh: I'm starting to believe so. :agree:

Ginny as a Red Herring

Hawk92:

Regarding the incident in the library, why is it important to you that this scene is debunked as H/G? Do you really think that JKR is going to (in the next book) revisit this particular scene and explain to Harry in detail about how it wasn't either the chocolate or Ginny that was making him feel better, but the draught of peace? It simply isn't logical, IMO.

Also, I'm under the impression that you feel JKR is using Ginny as a red herring to the real romance of H/Hr. Please correct me if I've misunderstood you. I feel that Cho is the red herring. She is a false hope of romance, as Harry's relationship with Sirius was a false hope of family. Ginny has been compared favorable over Cho (the red herring) by impressing Harry with her Quidditch skills and beating Cho to the snitch; Ginny's ideas were used over Cho's to name the D.A.; Ginny introduces Luna to Harry (who turns out to be a loyal friend), rather than Cho, who introduces Marrietta to the group (who does not turn out so well). So, if Cho is the red herring to a real romance, why have Ginny in the books at all?

Back to the library scene. I believe it is the "chocolate" which is the red herring in this scene, as Harry will realize that it's the "Ginny effect" and not the "chocolate effect" that makes him feel better.

It was probably the worst day of his life, it was the worst he ever felt. It was a very powerful emotion for someone who barely knows the girl that was taken into the chamber. I am not saying that Harry is in love w/ Ginny but I would've expect a reaction similar to the one that I emphasize for Hermione.She's his bestfriend he could've react better than a please don't be dead.It will be my fault line

Yes, magiciangirl! I'm amazed at Harry's powerful reactions to a girl he has hardly spoken to, but has observed favorable! :tu: She blushes in book 2 and emerges glowing like the setting sun. Also, when she is taken in the chamber, besides being described as the worst day of Harry's life (twice), Harry watches the sun-sinking, blood red. Interesting descriptions that I just noticed; she glows like the setting sun and when she is taken to the chamber and believed to be dead; the sun is sinking blood red. These are very powerful images for a girl he hardly knows and has barely spoken to (but has observed much)!

He is desperate to save her; his anger at Tom is really overblown at the point where he is digging his nails in his palms, and he doesn't even realize Tom is Voldemort at this point. He's extremely angry at Tom for possessing Ginny and belittling her. IMO, JKR wrote this powerful scene that way so when H/G comes about readers can see Harry's strong, emotional reactions and it will all make perfect sense. Regarding Hermione, Harry doesn't even say "please don't be dead", so he is not even begging here, like he does with Ginny. He seems more consumed with his own guilt, - "don't be dead, don't be dead, it's my fault if your dead!" If H/hr are to happen, JKR should have made Harry's feelings for Hermione a lot more obvious than guilt-induced trauma, as she is one of his best friends.

This is kind of a late post.Thanks Mad-I for expanding my point. You nailed my point perfectly. The DoM scene w/ Hermione being knocked out as I said earlier was a perfect situation to showcase the depth of Harry's feelings for Hermione but it wasn't. Compare Harry's reaction when Ginny was taken into the chamber.
It was probably the worst day of his life, it was the worst he ever felt. It was a very powerful emotion for someone who barely knows the girl that was taken into the chamber. I am not saying that Harry is in love w/ Ginny but I would've expect a reaction similar to the one that I emphasize for Hermione.She's his bestfriend he could've react better than a please don't be dead.It will be my fault line.

Maybe I'm the only one who disagree with this thinking there because there is a different between "I know I love you" or to "I'm not aware that I love you" This is maybe the biggest different as I know.
First Harry did react like that about Ginny as she was taken into the chamber like that because :She was dead for him. Off course is this different as to watch someone die.
There is a very big different someone can tell you "Your friends sister is dead!" you are slapped into your face but you are able to discover your feeling and this say its the worst day. But if you watch someone fells and looks dead you are numb. You can't anymore react not reasonable act what you do is rather instictive.
Why?
Because, like this scene did so wonderful show Hermione was even cut into her words, you see someone fall from fully alive into dead or nearlly dead. Thats different as with someone who falls asleep. See there is still power and live you can see it in someones face that is like that but as fast someone falls into near dead there you can nearlly watch how live gos away, how the power vanish. Thats anlone is different but you feels different thats a sight which you didn't expect you caught by your gard as you see this.
You don't knees there and discover unknown feelings you take that what you did feel just minutes before that was by Harry to blame himself. Because he did think about it and the simply fact that Hermione might be dead.

I do know people who did in such a situation laugh though they did love this person but unaware. Really laugh not hysterical or something like that and did even make fun. So what is this cold? I doubt this because thats the shock, panic you react unreasonable because You don't get the whole meaning.

EDIT:

I did always wonder if Rons feelings possibile not that what we interpret. I mean why can't it be that Ron says the true at the Ball? That he was indeed that much upset about Hermione because he really thought she were with an enemy. Who said that Ron didn't insist to Hermione that it would be saver if she don't go at all to such a ball? Maybe he did react that way more because of Harry as about Hermione herself?

FlyingPhoenix:
I did always wonder if Rons feelings possibile not that what we interpret. I mean why can't it be that Ron says the true at the Ball? That he was indeed that much upset about Hermione because he really thought she were with an enemy. Who said that Ron didn't insist to Hermione that it would be saver if she don't go at all to such a ball? Maybe he did react that way more because of Harry as about Hermione herself?

This is a possibility, of course. however, it is more likely that he was jealous of Hermione going to the ball with someone else, whether he is astute enough to realize it or not. After all, JKR does make the point of bringing Krum into OotP (with Hermione's letter), and showing that Ron continues to have a negative, seemingly jealous reaction to their correspondence, after Krum is no longer considered Harry's "enemy" (as the triwizard tournament it now over).

I think it is very unlikely that Ron's feelings towards Krum can be attributed to anything other than jealousy. I can see the argument for possessiveness, but IMO, if Ron was really being "possessive" as I see it, he would have pitched more of a fit over Hermione writing to Krum. As it was, he simply grumbled about it. But that seems to be a matter of personal perception of the events.

Some really good posts... I have enjoyed catching up.

About Ginny as the Red Herring. That was well written and very insightful. You brought up some great points about Ginny introducing Luna vs Cho introducing Marietta. I love it when I learn something new.

I do think that I need to disagree just a little with Harry's reaction over Ginny's vs Hermione's possible deaths. The situations in which Harry found out about Ginny's abduction and seeing Hermione get hurt were very different. With Ginny, Harry went back to the common room and sat with her brothers and had time to dwell on the magnitude that this little girl, his best friend's sister, was most likely dead. With Hermione they were in the middle of a battle for their very lives. He didn't have time to dwell or grieve over Hermione. He was obviously upset about Hermione but he was probably in shock over everything that had happened. The time to dwell and grieve would come later when the adrenaline rush is gone. Fortunately for us he didn't have to grieve over Hermione!

Best wishes and cheers and I must say that I appreciate the signatures that make us remember the victims of terrorism, not just in the USA but everywhere.

Buttercup

Hi all!

:welcome: Godrics_Heiress

Great posts FP, Turambar and Hawk92 (It was actually nice to know the "Draught of Peace theory" - I've never heard of it before).

We all assume Ron's upset because he likes Hermione and is jealous, but it could be that Ron is just being over-protective, or possession, whichever vocabulary floats your boat. He could have been truly upset that she was fraternizing with the enemy, causing Hermione to tell him that next time there's a ball he should ask her first instead of as last resort so that she doesn't fraternize with the enemy and accidentally give away Harry's plans.

I think JKR has us right where she wants us: saying Ron

A possible red herring? :huh: I'm starting to believe so. :agree:Grace,

To be quite honest, I've already considered this alternative myself . And I think it's highly possible (although JKR will only admit it after everybody has read book 7). I have some reasons to believe so:


My personal interpretation as a reader: the first time I read the books, before book 4 was released, I was almost sure that Harry and Hermione were going to be a couple. Did you guys have this impression too? I believe that there were many people who thought just like me. Maybe JKR noticed it and created this "tension" between Ron and Hermione just to distract us from the real couple - we all know how she hates being obvious. In that way, she made it pretty hard for us, readers, to believe that Harry and Hermione would be together - Harry had his infatuation with Cho and Ron supposedly fancied Hermione. We have some reasons to believe that Ron just likes Hermione as a friend. Besides the same pattern of jealousy towards Ginny, Ron's actions in the lake weren't from someone who had feelings for Hermione. This could be a clue to his real feelings. (Remember that interview when she said she had laid some clues in book 5 so that afterwards nobody could feel betrayed or deceived). Here is the scene:

Ootp, Chapter 31 - OWL's (emphasis mine)
…
They spread their books out in the shade of the beech tree and sat down while Ron talked them through his first save of the match for what felt like the dozenth time.

Well, I mean, I’d already let in that one of Davies’s, so I wasn’t feeling all that confident, but I dunno, when Bradley came towards me, just out of nowhere, I thought "you can do this!" And I had about a second to decide which way to fly, you know, because he looked like he was aiming for the right goalhoop my right, obviously, his left but I had a funny feeling that he was feinting, and so I took the chance and flew left his right, I mean - and well you saw what happened, he concluded modestly, sweeping his hair back quite unnecessarily so that it looked interestingly windswept and glancing around to see whether the people nearest to them — a bunch of gossiping third-year Hufflepuffs — had heard him. And then, when Chambers came at me about five minutes later - What? - Ron asked, having stopped mid-sentence at the look on Harry’s face.



Tell me, is this the reaction of a guy who is in love with his best-friend? (even if he's not aware of it yet - it's just an unconscious feeling). I doubt it.

And please, before you reply this, don't tell me he was being a show-off just to make Hermione jealous (I don't buy that).

Or, for those who is saying he's just like James and that Hermione is like Lily, and that someday they will discover how they've always loved each other and their son is going to be the savior of the wizarding world (whoops, sorry, got a little carried away)... Please remember that James was being a show-off just to attact Lily's attention and that he was supposedly aware that he was in love with her. Also, she was in the middle of the girls in the lake. Hermione was by his side, so she was not the object of his "little show".

Concluding... I do believe that the R/H "tension" might be just a BIG red-herring. And she left the clues there.

Concluding... I do believe that the R/H "tension" might be just a BIG red-herring. And she left the clues there.

I agree with you Fabiana its a big red-hering R/Hr because first you did quote this scene where I do get even more suspicious about Ron's supposed feelings for Hermione and its Ron's reaction about Corner its exactly like the one about Krum. Only the big, the very big different is that Corner is not from a dark school is not Harrys enemy in a tornament.
After this scene I ask myself very loudly "Dos Ron even like Hermione?" The answer is very possibile. No

My personal interpretation as a reader: the first time I read the books, before book 4 was released, I was almost sure that Harry and Hermione were going to be a couple. Did you guys have this impression too? I believe that there were many people who thought just like me. Maybe JKR noticed it and created this "tension" between Ron and Hermione just to distract us from the real couple - we all know how she hates being obvious. In that way, she made it pretty hard for us, readers, to believe that Harry and Hermione would be together - Harry had his infatuation with Cho and Ron supposedly fancied Hermione.

Again agreed. After book3 nearlly everybody did say H/Hr this did change after GoF.Poll (http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37756) Just look at this and you can read the most did change the ship after GoF.
Now JKR needed to change that, don't she? If she wanted this be interesting till the end!

Great post Fabiana :clap:

hi Fabiana
Tell me, is this the reaction of a guy who is in love with his best-friend?

It certainly could be, if the "love" (or like, really) is not realized. Most guys I know would do something of that nature at that age -- try to attract some attention to themselves if they had just done something cool or manly. Someone like Ron, who has pretty low self-esteem (IMO), would especially be suceptible to this kind of behavior. Not that he truly wants those girls to notice him, but he'd like to know that he has the power to make them do so. (Something I learned about in HumanPsych -- and have seen played out many times).

Oh, and FP:
Most people actually, according to that poll, haven't changed ships at all, regardless of the books. Of the small percentage of people (who took that poll) who have changed, the most changed from H/hr to R/Hr after GoF - true. However, if JKR is really trying to throw us off track, she didn't do enough to change the majority of her reader's minds (according to this poll, anyway, as most people didn't change their minds at all). Also, this poll does not indicate who people shipped prior to changing -- in other words, we can't know, from this poll, whether people shipped H/HR or R/HR more prior to Book 4 (or whichever book). I know that most of the people I've talked with have thought R/Hr were going to get together since Book4, when people really began thinking about the characters going on dates -- and I personally never really thought about shipping when I was reading Book 1 for the first time - the kids being 11 and all.
In short, we don't know whether most people shipped H/Hr after book three, but it changed in Book 4 -- because the poll does not indicate how many people, or what percentage of people, shipped H/Hr (or R/Hr) prior to book 4.

Finally, I must bid you all a fond farewell. I hope to find the Heron sailing smoothly when I return (as I'm sure it will, as it is in very capable hands)! Who knows? the love thread may be on part 95 when I come back! :p

Grace,

To be quite honest, I've already considered this alternative myself . And I think it's highly possible (although JKR will only admit it after everybody has read book 7). I have some reasons to believe so:

My personal interpretation as a reader: the first time I read the books, before book 4 was released, I was almost sure that Harry and Hermione were going to be a couple. Did you guys have this impression too? I believe that there were many people who thought just like me. Maybe JKR noticed it and created this "tension" between Ron and Hermione just to distract us from the real couple - we all know how she hates being obvious. In that way, she made it pretty hard for us, readers, to believe that Harry and Hermione would be together - Harry had his infatuation with Cho and Ron supposedly fancied Hermione.
We have some reasons to believe that Ron just likes Hermione as a friend. Besides the same pattern of jealousy towards Ginny, Ron's actions in the lake weren't from someone who had feelings for Hermione. This could be a clue to his real feelings. (Remember that interview when she said she had laid some clues in book 5 so that afterwards nobody could feel betrayed or deceived). Here is the scene:


Tell me, is this the reaction of a guy who is in love with his best-friend? (even if he's not aware of it yet - it's just an unconscious feeling). I doubt it.

Why of course not, my dear Fabiana! :) Ron is most definitely not in love with Hermione and I believe if he does like her it may not be as "deep" as we think. Perhaps we've been mislabeling his feelings for Hermione?


And please, before you reply this, don't tell me he was being a show-off just to make Hermione jealous (I don't bite that).

Or, for those who is saying he's just like James and that Hermione is like Lily, and that someday they will discover how they've always loved each other and their son is going to be the savior of the wizarding world (whoops, sorry, got a little carried away)... Please remember that James was being a show-off just to attact Lily's attention and that he was supposedly aware that he was in love with her. Also, she was in the middle of the girls in the lake. Hermione was by his side, so she was not the object of his "little show".

Concluding... I do believe that the R/H "tension" might be just a BIG red-herring. And she left the clues there.

I don't buy it either. As much as I like to compare, each Trio has some similarity, physical or mental, to each Marauder and Lily.


Prongs Sr.:Ginny has been compared favorable over Cho (the red herring) by impressing Harry with her Quidditch skills and beating Cho to the snitch; Ginny's ideas were used over Cho's to name the D.A.; Ginny introduces Luna to Harry (who turns out to be a loyal friend), rather than Cho, who introduces Marrietta to the group (who does not turn out so well). So, if Cho is the red herring to a real romance, why have Ginny in the books at all?

Ginny may have been compared favorably over Cho, but Harry has never done so. So I don't think Harry has been impressed much, except for once when he commented on her Seeker skills. Also, we've had Harry marvel at Hermione's intelligence in regards to knowing who are listed as Animagus's for the 20th Century in PoA; Hermione's hexing Marietta; and sees her solidarity and loyalty when she accompanied him to Umbridge's office.

Just because Ginny and Cho have similarities, and Ginny is better than Cho when it comes to those similarities, doesn't necessarily mean that Harry is going to go for the "better deal." His interest in Cho are strictly what he finds interesting in Cho.

How could this be a red herring anyhow? Aren't red herrings suppose to totally throw us off? How could Cho be a red herring to someone who is just like her, but better?

And Ginny's in the books because:
1) She's a Weasley. Which is unavoidable.
2) For plot reasons, perhaps? :shrug:


Mad-I Moody
It certainly could be, if the "love" (or like, really) is not realized. Most guys I know would do something of that nature at that age -- try to attract some attention to themselves if they had just done something cool or manly. Someone like Ron, who has pretty low self-esteem (IMO), would especially be suceptible to this kind of behavior. Not that he truly wants those girls to notice him, but he'd like to know that he has the power to make them do so. (Something I learned about in HumanPsych -- and have seen played out many times).

But doesn't Ron know Hermione well enough to know that this wouldn't grab her attention? That she'd more than likely think he's acting stupid? I personally thought Ron was just having an ego trip. Who knows how many girls have gone up to him since he won and he's enjoyed every minute of it?

I keep forgetting to give a shout out to a great post you made FP about LOTR (I think, I already forgot :frown: ). I was waving my hands in the air like "HEEEEY!" :D And Ture for bringing up "unusual" which I think no one has disputed yet! ;) And here's a clappy for everyone else, too..lol :clap:

Daveydee: what's your take on Hermione's use of the word "unusual" in this context:

"I think a lot of people will be wondering whether there isn't a better explanation of what happened, and if there's an alternative story available, even if it is published in a-" she glanced sideways at Luna, "in a - well, an unusual magazine - I think they might be rather keen to read it." - P502 Ch The Beetle At Bay, Bloomsbury edition.
<snipped>
In the scene above she is trying to be nice to Luna because her father has agreed to publish Harry's story. With her use of the word "unusual" isn't she trying to be diplomatic and inoffensive about something she doesn't care for?
I’m assuming here that you see the same interpretation for the word unusual in Hermione’s description of both Ron’s perfume and Mr Lovegood’s Quibbler. And that in both cases you see a negative meaning to the word.

Obviously you’re entitled to you interpretation; but I don’t share it. The word unusual is an adjective that can have both positive and negative connotations. Either way it merely describes something which sets it apart from other similar things.

unusual:remarkable or interesting because different from or better than others. (source: OED)

Clearly, Hermione’s use of the word in describing the Quibbler is a thinly veiled insult. My interpretation of her use of the word in describing the perfume, is that it is an understated compliment. I speak only from personal experience in having received gifts which I have viewed as unusual, and with which I have been far more delighted than had I received boring run-of -the-mill socks or handkerchiefs.


I believe that there will be resolution. But that it will be that Ron’s feelings are one sided or that Ron didn’t have feelings at all. I still have my doubts as to what Ron was upset about at the Yule Ball. Also it is truly possible that in the resolution we find out that Ron may have been thinking that way but once he thought it through he reached the conclusion that Hermione and he would not have worked out, or that he never had true feelings for her, a passing phase at best perhaps, but nothing more.
Of course this is a further response to my post some pages back, in which I contend that Ron and Hermione not being placed together on Valentine’s Day can be seen as a pro R/Hr scene (much like the non-hug in the CoS movie). As these things tend to do, the discussion has drifted somewhat off the point. Nonetheless, since most of us seem to be in agreement that some sort of resolution to the R/Hr question is in order, whether by means of a full chapter or a mere sentence, the fact that we have not yet got that resolution is further sustenance of the potential relationship, especially because of the Valentine non-date, which would have been a perfect opportunity for that to play out.


The path of true platonic love [in the classic sense of the word] ensures the greatest of loves, one that satisfies the soul [B Marley anyone?], whilst allowing for the possibility of eros in the appropriate time and place [i.e. between persons permitted to one another], and providing for sustenance of the relationship at all levels over time. Something that almost by definition cannot happen with eros alone. Does a relationship based on eros progress to a love between souls? Possibly, but for certain this is far less likely. Because the soul is where it’s at. That’s where the lasting “chemistry” lies. The soul is the seat of the self, and all that other stuff [whether you’re DDG or just whatever ] is fleeting and transitory, revealing nothing about true compatibility and connection.
I know that this is a pet concept of yours, evaluna, but I have to say I disagree with it. Of course I don’t disagree with the sentiment behind it, all very laudable; but it really does not reflect harsh reality.

That reality is the fact that in the vast, overwhelming number of cases it is eros love which comes first (chronologically) in a relationship and may or may not be followed by platonic love.

Put bluntly - it’s a fact of life, that with few exceptions, we are initially drawn to the opposite sex by appearance or some other physical aspect of that person, whether it be a certain sexual aura or whatever. Of course once we get to know the person inside, the relationship either prevails or it falters. That may be an unedifying reflection of human emotions; it is nonetheless how things play out in the real world (rooted very firmly in nature – the search for the perfect specimen to enable the survival of the species, etc).

Put even more bluntly – if the spark is not there at the outset, it is very unlikely to develop later. And that, I’m afraid, is how I see Hermione and Harry. A beautiful and meaningful friendship (in many ways far superior to the potentially transient nature of romance) – but no spark.


I will be lurking and reading the thread from time to time during my hiatus, but I will not be posting for an unforeseeable amount of time.
Nooooo! Ah well, whatever you’re going to be doing, take my best wishes with you.

The DoM scene w/ Hermione being knocked out as I said earlier was a perfect situation to showcase the depth of Harry's feelings for Hermione but it wasn't. Compare Harry's reaction when Ginny was taken into the chamber.
It was probably the worst day of his life, it was the worst he ever felt. It was a very powerful emotion for someone who barely knows the girl that was taken into the chamber. I am not saying that Harry is in love w/ Ginny but I would've expect a reaction similar to the one that I emphasize for Hermione.She's his bestfriend he could've react better than a please don't be dead.It will be my fault line.

I really don't see how you could compare Harry's reaction upon seeing Ginny and Hermione's well-being in two different situations. Don't you think age has a bearing on why Harry reacted the way he did? He was only twelve when he sees Ginny lying on the ground and almost as though dead. He's never seen anyone in such a state before in his life. If I were on his shoes, I'd consider that day the worst of my life as well. In Hermione's situation, he was much older and he was perturbed, wasn't he? He couldn't think straight for a moment, too. And also perhaps the thought that it couldn't possibly be a killing curse that hit Hermione (it was purple instead of a green flame and correct me if i'm mistaken) made Harry think very hopeful of her condition...that she'd recuperate and she would not die.

First :welcome: Godric_Heiress

Now to your rebutal about Harrys reaction to Ginny/Hermione.
He's never seen anyone in such a state before in his life. If I were on his shoes, I'd consider that day the worst of my life as well. In Hermione's situation, he was much older and he was perturbed, wasn't he? He couldn't think straight for a moment, too. And also perhaps the thought that it couldn't possibly be a killing curse that hit Hermione (it was purple instead of a green flame and correct me if i'm mistaken) made Harry think very hopeful of her condition...that she'd recuperate and she's not going to die.

I know that Harry did think this that this was the worst day of his live was as for him was it clear she most likley dead.

I gonna quote:
It was probably the worst day of Harry's entire life. He, Ron, Fred and George sat together in a corner of the Griffindor common room, unable to say anything to each other...
Harry didn't know what to say. He couldn't see how Ginny could still be alive.

Thats the main reason why Harry did react how he react.

And also perhaps the thought that it couldn't possibly be a killing curse that hit Hermione (it was purple instead of a green flame and correct me if i'm mistaken) made Harry think very hopeful of her condition...that she'd recuperate and she's not going to die

I have to disagree because Harry know there are spells and curse out there which can kill, too. He really thought she might be dead that was his worst thinking but at the same time he hoped he is wrong.

I'm posting in response to DaveyDee's suggestion that Ron and Hermione not having contact on Valentine's day is pro-R/Hr.

Quote: DaveyDee
Of course this is a further response to my post some pages back, in which I contend that Ron and Hermione not being placed together on Valentine’s Day can be seen as a pro R/Hr scene (much like the non-hug in the CoS movie). As these things tend to do, the discussion has drifted somewhat off the point. Nonetheless, since most of us seem to be in agreement that some sort of resolution to the R/Hr question is in order, whether by means of a full chapter or a mere sentence, the fact that we have not yet got that resolution is further sustenance of the potential relationship, especially because of the Valentine non-date, which would have been a perfect opportunity for that to play out.
End Quote

I'm confused how Ron and Hermione not resolving anything on Valentines day is supportive of R/Hr. Surely at best it could only be neutral to Ron and Hermione eventually getting together. If there had been a resolution on Valentines day between the two of them, it was either going to be them becoming a couple, which is obviously positive for R/Hr, or them deciding they weren't going to get together, which would be a negative outcome for R/Hr.

Since neither event actually took place, the equilibrium is maintained, and so is the possibility that R/Hr may get together in the future, but the non-event of Valentines day doesn't advance their cause at all.

Briliant posts all and well done, Harmony! Thanks to Turambar and Hawk! Loved your post as well ;) Please excuse formatting...am not posting from usual spot.

DaveyDee, Cheers! Was going to respond to other stuff first, but can't pass on this ;) Am laughing with you as I type. First, let no one dispute the existence of 'the spark'. LOL. Ideally the spark originates from many levels. Else, as you say, the connection falters if only originating on the physical level. Let me say once more that, whilst persons surely vary, I would strongly put forth that, out of a universe of persons each of us is drawn to some and not others. And why is that? Is it really initially just physical [past the first glances where you are registering physical presence]? Why some and not others who are equally attractive or essentially identical in appearance? That's chemistry, one might say, or the X factor, or that certain something. Exactly my point. I'm simply referring to this as an affinity of souls, upon which a lasting partnership can be built if developed, maintained, and socially permitted of course. Put another way, out of many one might consider equally attractive, IMO it's the connection between souls that make some truly beautiful to your, whilst others you can take or leave. Thanks for your time, DD, and for the opportunity to clarify my [very near and dear] pet theory! Back shortly to respond to other posts.
Cheers!