Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom part five

[QUOTE=harryandchopotter]Who cares about Dobby and Winky? Doppy and Wimpy more like.
QUOTE]

I CARE! :rasp: Dobby and Winky FOREVER!

Just another thought about the "really unusual perfume" and Hermione who is after R/Hr supposed to like Ron.

I need to explain if Hermione has feelings for someone than we should expect she does directly turn to the one she like, right? And not as an after thought. Thats what through the whole books happens. Hermione turns nearlly always first to Harry and than to Ron. Don't tell me is because Harry is the hero of this story thats a simple action for Hermione what comes in a instinctly way. You turns to the one who is for you more important. Like a child turns directly to the mother.
This happens that often and that naturally that we don't wonder about it but Hermione turns first to Harry. Tells him first how she wanted that book and thanks him before she turn to Ron and tells him like an afterthought.
Now you say why didn't Ron say something if it was like that and Hermione did mean "Unusual!" as not liking? Simple Ron is used at this. He is used to come after Harry by Hermione. This unusual part its nothing bad with this word as long you aren't in a bad mood and I'm sure if Ron were at this moment in a bad mood he did tell her that she didn't like it...

I'm not trying to be unfair or anything, but why does every single quote in the book simply have to support one ship or another? Harry, Ron, and Hermione are friends. Friends who don't care who's mentioned first by others. Yes, we do have a sense that Ron likes Hermione. However, I seriously doubt that Ron even realizes this yet. In an interview, Rowling herself said something about Ron being a "typical boy" and not noticing yet. Hermione probably notices his behavior, but if she likes him as well, she hasn't noticed that either. Personally, I think all three are really close friends, and something is possibly brewing between Ron and Hermione. I don't think the Harry Potter series would actually go so far as to include a full blown love triangle, which is why I don't think both Ron and Harry like Hermione. I'm convinced Ron likes her, though, judging by his reaction to Krum and all. As for the word "unusual," Hermione's never one to go by the norm. I mean, she's not really "normal" herself, is she? Unusual perfumes are usually the best ones, in my opinion. Judging my Hermione's character, I think that her opinion would be similar as well. As for her mentioning Harry first, does it really matter? When I talk to my friends, nobody reads into who's gift I open first or what not. I agree that some of the little things slipped in here and there are clues for one ship or another, but I rather doubt that this is one of them. Also, if it is a clue, it could just as well mean that she likes Ron because she felt more comfortable thanking Harry.

really don't see how you could compare Harry's reaction upon seeing Ginny and Hermione's well-being in two different situations. Don't you think age has a bearing on why Harry reacted the way he did? He was only twelve when he sees Ginny lying on the ground and almost as though dead. He's never seen anyone in such a state before in his life. If I were on his shoes, I'd consider that day the worst of my life as well. In Hermione's situation, he was much older and he was perturbed, wasn't he? He couldn't think straight for a moment, too. And also perhaps the thought that it couldn't possibly be a killing curse that hit Hermione (it was purple instead of a green flame and correct me if i'm mistaken) made Harry think very hopeful of her condition...that she'd recuperate and she would not die.

Harry does think that both Hermione and Ginny are dead. My personal opinion on why the chamber of secrets storyline was written when Harry was 12 and Ginny was 11, is to hide the obvious romance in the scene. If it had taken place when they were 16 and 17, respectively, I feel that scene would have just screamed of romance and "here is the love interest"! As I've said before, it's a classic story with a modern twist, "hero saves the girl," but the "girl" is not damsel in distress. As I've seen by the development of Ginny's character from all the books, she is no shrinking violet and I can't wait for the eventual confrontation between Ginny and Voldemort. I believe Ginny will have a crucial role in defeating Voldemort.

The reason I feel that Ginny's scene is more meaningful is because it is foreshadowing their love story. JKR is giving powerful, emotional reactions from Harry for a girl he hardly knows (at that time) and she emphasizes how Harry feels it is the worst day of his life. His anger at Tom Riddle is amplified because Tom is insulting, belittling and hurting Ginny. Harry's extremely powerful reactions to Ginny's being hurt by Tom (nails digging into his palms; anger coursing through him); are completely unnecessary to fuel to story along.

And Ginny's in the books because:
1) She's a Weasley. Which is unavoidable.
2) For plot reasons, perhaps?

Why does JKR have to write another Weasley? There are six boys already and Ginny seems to have some qualities of all of the brothers, but she writes a girl character, who happens to be around Harry's age and also happens to have romantic feelings for him, which I believe, will be returned.

My personal opinion on why the chamber of secrets storyline was written when Harry was 12 and Ginny was 11, is to hide the obvious romance in the scene. If it had taken place when they were 16 and 17, respectively, I feel that scene would have just screamed of romance and "here is the love interest"!

One could easily apply the exact same argument to the scene between Harry and Hermione at the end of PS/SS. The possible romantic implications of a scene like this are equally (or, in my own opinion, even more) powerful as the CoS scene. I'm not, however, arguing which scene is more poignant; my point is that if two scenes that contain heavy romantic imagery and concepts both occur when the participants are too young to be considered obvious foreshadowing, how do you know which of the two scenes is actually supposed to foreshadow the final romance?

Harry's extremely powerful reactions to Ginny's being hurt by Tom (nails digging into his palms; anger coursing through him); are completely unnecessary to fuel to story along.

I should first say that my initial reaction, upon reading MagicianGirl's previous post about Harry having a stronger response to Ginny's possible death in CoS than Hermione's in OotP was "oh, how silly". Not intending to offend MagicianGirl or Prongs; I'm merely trying to drive home how ridiculous it is to imply that Harry cares more about a girl he knew for roughly a year than his best friend, whom he had known for five years at the time of her attack. Of course, I do see that neither of you were implying this. However, logically speaking, how do H/G shippers use the CoS "worst day of his life" scene to their advantage, if not to imply that Harry's reaction to Ginny's death was stronger than his reaction to Hermione's? By saying that Harry felt that it was the worst day of his life when Ginny was taken into the Chamber does indicate that the H/G ship is claiming that he cares more about Ginny at that point than for Hermione as of OotP. Can anyone clarify?

My alternate interpretation to this scene is that the Weasley family are the only family that Harry can possibly think of as his own. Because he has already begun to feel like one of them, he would suffer from their loss because they are suffering as well. This is what happens when you care about people, naturally. Now, my point is that this makes a very powerful statement about the potential relationship between Harry and Ginny: in my mind, if they were to ever be together, he would be with her not because of Ginny, but because of the Weasleys.

Allow me to explain. He cared when she was taken into the Chamber in CoS, naturally. He cared alot. My question would be why he was caring so much--realistically, let's admit that he didn't know her very well at the time. If anyone wishes to retort that he knew her soul because they are destined for one another, please do so with my blessing. However, I would like to remain within the bounds of realism when I say that yes, Harry cared that Ginny was taken by Riddle, and yes, he cared because he cares about Ron, who in turn cares about Ginny. To broaden that statement, Harry cares about the Weasley family, and Ginny is a Weasley. This is why the concept of OBHWF works so well: Harry loves the Weasleys, and the Weasleys love him. If anything happens between Harry and Ginny, it won't start with Harry caring about Ginny alone. It will start with the fact that he wants to be a part of their family, and Ginny is the way to get there.

No, I don't think Harry will use Ginny as a ticket to the Burrow. But I do think that his need to be a part of a family, especially one that he already loves, will come before his need to love Ginny for who she is. Which is why I feel that the concept of H/G is hollow and less meaningful than that of H/Hr.

Why does JKR have to write another Weasley? There are six boys already and Ginny seems to have some qualities of all of the brothers, but she writes a girl character, who happens to be around Harry's age and also happens to have romantic feelings for him, which I believe, will be returned.

If we start to argue this way than we can ask why do we need Hermione to be a girl? Why not a boy? Why do we need that Harry and Ron need to rescue her before they become friends?

By Ginny it can mean that her five brothers are something like war victims. Did you ever read a book about the first WW? Where a huge family with about 7 brothers and one girl was after the war a small family?
I did and its quiet scary if I read a chapter called "The second war"

Maybe JKR needed a girl because girls are the likely one who have a crush on a hero and JKR wanted that Harry has to face this girl. If there wasn't a Weasley girl than Harry could avoid this "Fan-girl"
Maybe JKR thought a girl is most likely to write into a diary. So she needed Ginny for the chamber. Probably Ginny is only for this three things there.

1) to survive
2) Fan-girl (Book1-4)
3) chamber-victim

This alone makes her reasonable.

As for her mentioning Harry first, does it really matter? When I talk to my friends, nobody reads into who's gift I open first or what not. I agree that some of the little things slipped in here and there are clues for one ship or another, but I rather doubt that this is one of them. Also, if it is a clue, it could just as well mean that she likes Ron because she felt more comfortable thanking Harry.

:rotfl: I love this word comfortable :rotfl: I think this will be the word of the year 2003. But anyway if you are all platonic friends than you right this don't mean something but if you say Hermione likes Ron than it mean something. That she mention Harry always first. As friend you turns it sometimes and take another first thats normal but you don't mention someone nearlly always first thats more as just a clue.

Even in dangerous scenes Harry comes first. Or just say after the ". task in GoF. Harry came first even a goggling 18 year old boy was sitting at her side. Its always about Harry and nearlly never Ron. Not if he is nice and kind but only if he yells and get angry she notice him. Just like the prefect scene.

FP: I'm sorry you don't agree, but I feel I can argue authorial intent! I'm curious to know what exactly JKR has planned for all of the characters and I feel she has planned for Ginny to be Harry's love interest.


Earendil:

One could easily apply the exact same argument to the scene between Harry and Hermione at the end of PS/SS. The possible romantic implications of a scene like this are equally (or, in my own opinion, even more) powerful as the CoS scene. I'm not, however, arguing which scene is more poignant; my point is that if two scenes that contain heavy romantic imagery and concepts both occur when the participants are too young to be considered obvious foreshadowing, how do you know which of the two scenes is actually supposed to foreshadow the final romance?

Well, we can agree to disagree on what we feel is romantic imagery or not. You obviously like Hermione's "you're a great wizard Harry", as being romantic, while I love the whole rescue scene in the chamber (Harry trying to desperately awake her; Harry trying to pick Ginny up and take her in his arms (but he can't because he's too young, lol); Harry defending Ginny's honor when Tom insults her; Harry fighting the Basilisk with the sword and rescues Ginny.

As for your last question, I feel there are so many other reasons and foreshadowing, in addition to the rescue scene, that shows me that JKR is writing H/G. To answer your question fairly, why Ginny and not Hermione? Ginny has had a crush on Harry for four books, with her crush only relevant to the plot for Book 2, but it is still noted in books 3 and 4. Why? Also, I find it strange that JKR is continuing the Ginny's love interest storyline. She hooks up with Michael Corner at the end of book 4 and at the end of book 5, we have her boyfriend ending up with Cho. Again, why? If Ginny's love life is not crucial to the plot, why are we finding out about it?

I should first say that my initial reaction, upon reading MagicianGirl's previous post about Harry having a stronger response to Ginny's possible death in CoS than Hermione's in OotP was "oh, how silly". Not intending to offend MagicianGirl or Prongs; I'm merely trying to drive home how ridiculous it is to imply that Harry cares more about a girl he knew for roughly a year than his best friend, whom he had known for five years at the time of her attack. Of course, I do see that neither of you were implying this. However, logically speaking, how do H/G shippers use the CoS "worst day of his life" scene to their advantage, if not to imply that Harry's reaction to Ginny's death was stronger than his reaction to Hermione's? By saying that Harry felt that it was the worst day of his life when Ginny was taken into the Chamber does indicate that the H/G ship is claiming that he cares more about Ginny at that point than for Hermione as of OotP. Can anyone clarify?

That's a fair question and I'm not offended at all and this is my personal interpretation of what I feel will happen at the end of book 7 and how it relates to H/G.

At the end of book seven, JKR has apparently writen her epilogue which supposedly wraps up and ties up all the loose ends of what happens to her characters. I've gotten a feeling from text, on a couple of different occasions, that all the books are being told by Harry, reflecting upon the past. If this is the case, all of these favorable Ginny impressions and the Chamber being described "as the worst day of his life" are going to be perfectly logical. This is just my personal opinion and I'm not sure if other H/Gers agree or disagree. However, we won't know until the end, will we?

Of course, I feel that H/G stands as well, as present tense, also.

Prongs Sr

Regarding the incident in the library, why is it important to you that this scene is debunked as H/G?

It’s not really. But its one of the few scenes that is H/G that is actually based on text. Most H/G is pure speculation. Its fun and interesting to debate because it actually is in the text.

Do you really think that JKR is going to (in the next book) revisit this particular scene and explain to Harry in detail about how it wasn't either the chocolate or Ginny that was making him feel better, but the draught of peace? It simply isn't logical, IMO.

Enough threads gather in that theory that it provides a loop hole for JKR. In short I’m suspicious of all the extra that goes into that particular moment. Why call attention to the fact that Umbridge had inspected the package personally? Why establish the fake Vertiserum in the beginning of the same chapter? Why the **** chocolate at all? Had Ginny merely sat down and talked to Harry and Harry felt better then this theory would not exist. And it is logical if JKR wants to explain why a certain ship did or didn’t happen.

Also, I'm under the impression that you feel JKR is using Ginny as a red herring to the real romance of H/Hr. Please correct me if I've misunderstood you.

You have misunderstood me. To be completely honest I don’t care if H/G happens. I don’t think that Ginny is developed enough to like or to hate her. She has had 2 larger parts in 2 out of 5 books. For the other 3 she made an occasional cameo. Nothing more. I have seen little to support the H/G other than a OBHWF ending. I don’t care if H/G does or doesn’t happen. But Ginny is going to need some more development (MO) for it to be believable to me. She will have to become more important to Harry than Hermione. And as of the end of OotP this has not happened yet.
What fascinates me the most about the H/G is that Ginny herself has said that she likes Harry for a friend. Friendship and nothing more. The exact same thing that keeps getting thrown into H/Hr faces. Oh we see what that H/Hr is saying but its only friendship. Here JKR has written in the text that Ginny likes Harry only for a friend, and she has reinforced it twice. Still I keep hearing that it’s all a red herring. What even leads one to think like that? At least in the Draught of Peace Theory I pointed to what made me suspect a red herring (Umbridge inspecting the package, having fake vertiserum, the introduction in OotP of the Draught of Peace, Harry feeling better after eating the chocolate, the chocolate in the scene at all) all these extras that could be used for a red herring. But Ginny saying that she’s over Harry, only likes him for a friend, and that she has chosen Dean Thomas (all simple statements) and these are colossal red herrings.

I feel that Cho is the red herring. She is a false hope of romance, as Harry's relationship with Sirius was a false hope of family. Ginny has been compared favorable over Cho (the red herring) by impressing Harry with her Quidditch skills and beating Cho to the snitch; Ginny's ideas were used over Cho's to name the D.A.; Ginny introduces Luna to Harry (who turns out to be a loyal friend), rather than Cho, who introduces Marrietta to the group (who does not turn out so well). So, if Cho is the red herring to a real romance, why have Ginny in the books at all?

I truly felt that Harry had feelings for Cho. I think that now that the whole Cho thing is resolved the future of Harry pairings is open. As for the why have Ginny in the books, why not? She is Ron’s sister. She was introduced and played a part in Cos. Then she goes into the background, but so do others. Padma, Parvati, Susan Bones, Cho was introduced in PoA and then carried on for 2 more books, why introduce Cho either. There are other people in these stories. Secondary characters and that’s all that Ginny is right now.

Back to the library scene. I believe it is the "chocolate" which is the red herring in this scene, as Harry will realize that it's the "Ginny effect" and not the "chocolate effect" that makes him feel better.

Or it could be the unburdening Sirius effect. After all Harry did say that was another reason why he could have felt better. Sometimes people talk to people to feel better but it’s the saying out loud of what’s bothering them, getting it off their chests so to speak, that provides the relief.

Daveydee

Of course this is a further response to my post some pages back, in which I contend that Ron and Hermione not being placed together on Valentine’s Day can be seen as a pro R/Hr scene (much like the non-hug in the CoS movie). As these things tend to do, the discussion has drifted somewhat off the point. Nonetheless, since most of us seem to be in agreement that some sort of resolution to the R/Hr question is in order, whether by means of a full chapter or a mere sentence, the fact that we have not yet got that resolution is further sustenance of the potential relationship, especially because of the Valentine non-date, which would have been a perfect opportunity for that to play out.

One could then also apply this same criteria to Harry not being made a prefect. Had JKR made Harry the prefect with Hermione and then they had gone off together we would have gotten our resolution, one way or the other.
We also have to look at the fact that we will need some kind of H/Hr resolution, pro or neg. A simple line or a whole chapter. Harry and Hermione are too close to not at least have the conversation are we friends or are we more.

So since we are looking for a H/Hr resolution as well, shall we say that those missed moments are pro H/Hr as well?

Cheers!

Daveydee: Yes I do think Hermione's intentions in using the word "unusual" are the same but I don't think either constitutes a thinly-veiled insult.
If we look at how Hermione reacted when she spoke her mind about the Quibbler she was embarrassed because she didn't want to cause offence. She had a definate opinion but saying it KNOWING the person sitting nearby had a family connection to the magazine owner would be rude and hurtful to that person. She flounders around for something to say and actually uses the word "interesting" in the same way as her use of the word "unusual". "I - oh," said Hermione, looking embarrassed. "Well ... it's got some interesting ... I mean, it's quite ..."
In the later conversation in The Three Broomsticks she keeps her personal opinion to herself, uses a neutral, inoffensive, diplomatic word so as not to cause any offence and doesn't get any reaction from Luna.

With the perfume scene (to summarise thanks to FP and others):
"On their way downstairs they met Hermione.
"Thanks for the book, Harry," she said happily. "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume's really unusual, Ron."

a) Harry and Ron come across Hermione together.
b) She looks at Harry and addresses him first (as usual).
c) She thanks Harry "happily".
d) She then tells him she really wanted the book he gave her and (my speculation) she realises the effort he put into getting her something he knew would be special to her.
e) In POA she told Harry that Arithmancy was her favourite subject and (my speculation) he appears to have remembered. Considering OOTP is full of references to events in previous books I don't think that's too much of a stretch
f) This ties in with another scene: "And just look at these books!" said Hermione excitedly, running a finger along the spines of the large leather-bound tomes.... She looked around at Harry, her face glowing, and he saw that the presence of hundreds of books had finally convinced hermione that what they were doing was right." JKR is showing that Harry and Hermione are on a different wavelength to Hermione and Ron.
g) Hermione even spends time mentioning the complete title of the book before saying that the perfume was unusual: which represents quite a change of tone from her gushing about the book.
h) Her use of the word, as I said earlier, means she doesn't care for the perfume and is being diplomatic. The only other alternative explanation for her use of the word unusual I can think of is she doesn't mind or even likes the perfume itself, but is worried about the fact that Ron has given her what could be seen as a romantic gift. Because she doesn't want to encourage him as more than a friend, she uses a neutral word to describe the present, that can't be taken as encouragement or offence.
i) In all honesty the word "unusual" in this context is a clanger. What could have been more simple than for JKR to write: "And that perfume's really nice, Ron" or even a even more simple "And thanks for the perfume, Ron".
j) JKR has written it this way because she WANTS us to note the difference in Hermione's reaction to the two presents.

Thanks FP, Hawk, Fabiana, Grace, Evaluna. Nice posts yourself and Earendil. Mad-I: you'll have to pop in later to get the last word on our little discussion since I'm planning to reply to the last post you made. Have a good break.

WoW page 21 already! You get sick and look how many pages! Just like to trow my two cents on some things:

should first say that my initial reaction, upon reading MagicianGirl's previous post about Harry having a stronger response to Ginny's possible death in CoS than Hermione's in OotP was "oh, how silly". Not intending to offend MagicianGirl or Prongs; I'm merely trying to drive home how ridiculous it is to imply that Harry cares more about a girl he knew for roughly a year than his best friend, whom he had known for five years at the time of her attack. Of course, I do see that neither of you were implying this. However, logically speaking, how do H/G shippers use the CoS "worst day of his life" scene to their advantage, if not to imply that Harry's reaction to Ginny's death was stronger than his reaction to Hermione's? By saying that Harry felt that it was the worst day of his life when Ginny was taken into the Chamber does indicate that the H/G ship is claiming that he cares more about Ginny at that point than for Hermione as of OotP. Can anyone clarify?

I have no idea what post are you talking about so if you could give a post # or page, I will apreciate it.

But I do feel that Harry had a much stronger reaction to Ginny than to Hermione. Being Hermione a girl he has known for five years. I expected Harry to be a bit more concern for Hermione's sake. But he wasn't. His immediate reaction is that if she dies it will be his fault. He doesn't have a feeling of great loss or worried about her. When Neville tells Harry that Hermione is alive. He is extremelly relief but doesn't show urge to carry her and get her some place safe. Instead he commands Neville to do it. He shows no intentions to carry her and Neville ends up doing it alone. For all Hermione has done for Harry, he showed very little concern for her well being. That is off course IMHO.


Allow me to explain. He cared when she was taken into the Chamber in CoS, naturally. He cared alot. My question would be why he was caring so much--realistically, let's admit that he didn't know her very well at the time. If anyone wishes to retort that he knew her soul because they are destined for one another, please do so with my blessing. However, I would like to remain within the bounds of realism when I say that yes, Harry cared that Ginny was taken by Riddle, and yes, he cared because he cares about Ron, who in turn cares about Ginny. To broaden that statement, Harry cares about the Weasley family, and Ginny is a Weasley. This is why the concept of OBHWF works so well: Harry loves the Weasleys, and the Weasleys love him. If anything happens between Harry and Ginny, it won't start with Harry caring about Ginny alone. It will start with the fact that he wants to be a part of their family, and Ginny is the way to get there.

I've heard that theory before. The theory of Harry's feelings because it was the worst day because she was a Weasley still doesn't click to me. Would it have been the same if it was Percy? I don't think so. Harry's feelings would have sound a bit strange if it would have been Percy. There are a lot of other days in the rest of the books that would have had a better qualification for the worst day of Harry's life. Also if it would have been because of Ron's we would have had a clear indication of this. But it directly links the worst day with Harry's persona. It was the 'worst he had ever felt' that is linked directly to his feelings not towards the Weasley's or Ron.

What fascinates me the most about the H/G is that Ginny herself has said that she likes Harry for a friend. Friendship and nothing more.

What page is this on?

The exact same thing that keeps getting thrown into H/Hr faces. Oh we see what that H/Hr is saying but its only friendship. Here JKR has written in the text that Ginny likes Harry only for a friend, and she has reinforced it twice. Still I keep hearing that it’s all a red herring. What even leads one to think like that?

First many h/hr shippers were saying that Ginny had a 'crush' on Harry and that she liked him. Now she is only a friend? Which one is the one?

To me it's clear that Ginny is 'languishing in love' for Harry. Why put in Ginny all those feelings for 4 years and posibilly still have them if JKR ain't going to use them?

Gily Ann

It was probably the worst day of his life, it was the worst he ever felt. It was a very powerful emotion for someone who barely knows the girl that was taken into the chamber.

Delurking here to put my two cents in. You seems to suggest that Harry's reaction is simply due to Ginny being taken into the chamber. However, you seems to have forgotten some other factors that contributed to that day being Harry's worst (at that point in his life). Remember on that date, Harry was found out that because of Ginny's abduction, Hogwart was going to be closed and all the students send back to their home.

"We shall have to send all the student home tomorrow," said Professor McGonagall. "This is the end of Hogwarts. Dumbledore always said ... "

The stafroom door banged open again. For one wild moment, Harry was sure it would be Dumbledore. But it was Lockhart, and he was beaming.

Hence, that day became Harry's worst day because: (1) he would be sent back to the Dursley, (2) Hogwarts would likely to be closed forever, and (3) Dumbledore is not there to resolve the situation. So, it would be reasonable to believe that Harry thought that Hogwarts will be closed and he would be stuck with the Dursleys forever. At that point in his life, being at Hogwarts was the only happiness in his life, wouldn't you considered the day you find out that you might be deprived of all happiness in your life to be the "worst day" of your life?!

Earendil: just thinking about your post, it's interesting how the younger Harry had a more straightforward attachment to the Weasleys. They were like his ideal family. In OOTP, especially during the Christmas period, he starts to see limits to his relationship with them, more shades of grey.

sorry to imput into this discussion so late,(just as I find the joy of this board, my computer dies and I needed to get a new one), but I ship H/G, I really believe that it may happen, but I just havent seen evidence of it yet. Mabey I just like the idea that he could really be connected to the weasleys by more than just friendship. OoTP certainly gave Ginney a personallity finally, and she certainly has that slightly reckless side that would make it a good match. I just havent really seen glaring evidence of him having more-than-friend feelings about her yet.

First many h/hr shippers were saying that Ginny had a 'crush' on Harry and that she liked him. Now she is only a friend? Which one is the one?

I would say in OotP when she said to Hermione that she used to fancy Harry but she is over him. She now considers him a friend. I speak for myself only and not for the crew of the HMS Harmony.

To me it's clear that Ginny is 'languishing in love' for Harry. Why put in Ginny all those feelings for 4 years and posibilly still have them if JKR ain't going to use them?

Key word here is possibly. I think that the feelings have been removed and I pointed out that this is in the text. Ginny used to fancy Harry but has gotten over him. Ginny was seeing Michael and has now chosen Dean over Harry.

After all Kurt Warner could possibly lead the Rams to the Super Bowl but I don't think that will happen at all. :no:

Cheers!

Well, we can agree to disagree on what we feel is romantic imagery or not. You obviously like Hermione's "you're a great wizard Harry", as being romantic, while I love the whole rescue scene in the chamber (Harry trying to desperately awake her; Harry trying to pick Ginny up and take her in his arms (but he can't because he's too young, lol); Harry defending Ginny's honor when Tom insults her; Harry fighting the Basilisk with the sword and rescues Ginny.

Not so much personal preference as to the fact that I saw Hermione's "you're a great wizard, Harry" in SS/PS as containing similar forms of potential romantic imagery and concepts as the idea of Harry rescuing Ginny from the Chamber. My point is that both scenes have the potential to be construed as romantic: which is the one being hidden behind the constrainsts of young age in order to disguise the actual romance?

As for your last question, I feel there are so many other reasons and foreshadowing, in addition to the rescue scene, that shows me that JKR is writing H/G. To answer your question fairly, why Ginny and not Hermione? Ginny has had a crush on Harry for four books, with her crush only relevant to the plot for Book 2, but it is still noted in books 3 and 4. Why? Also, I find it strange that JKR is continuing the Ginny's love interest storyline. She hooks up with Michael Corner at the end of book 4 and at the end of book 5, we have her boyfriend ending up with Cho. Again, why? If Ginny's love life is not crucial to the plot, why are we finding out about it?

Again, this could also be applied to Hermione. Hermione's purpose in the story is fairly clear: the other best friend who is the voice of reason and logic. So why even bother with her love life outside the trio (Krum)? The simple answer is that it creates conflict with Hermione's clearly intended love interest (Ron). However, the more complex answer is that it draws a parallel between a boy whom she is attracted to and the boy she is ultimately going to end up with (Harry). The two situations with Hermione's and Ginny's love lives are, again, not all that different from one another: how are we to decide which one is relevant to Harry?

As for the point you made about Ginny's crush being noted after CoS, I think this is significant as well. It shows that JKR built up this fan-girlish crush for several books, and then made it disappear like a wisp of smoke on a windy day. That is, of course, my personal opinion, but the fact that it sort of--went away--in OotP was telling of the depth of her feelings.

I have no idea what post are you talking about so if you could give a post # or page, I will apreciate it.

From here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=17822&page=20&pp=30):

This is kind of a late post.Thanks Mad-I for expanding my point. You nailed my point perfectly. The DoM scene w/ Hermione being knocked out as I said earlier was a perfect situation to showcase the depth of Harry's feelings for Hermione but it wasn't. Compare Harry's reaction when Ginny was taken into the chamber.
It was probably the worst day of his life, it was the worst he ever felt. It was a very powerful emotion for someone who barely knows the girl that was taken into the chamber. I am not saying that Harry is in love w/ Ginny but I would've expect a reaction similar to the one that I emphasize for Hermione.She's his bestfriend he could've react better than a please don't be dead.It will be my fault line.

But I do feel that Harry had a much stronger reaction to Ginny than to Hermione. Being Hermione a girl he has known for five years. I expected Harry to be a bit more concern for Hermione's sake. But he wasn't. His immediate reaction is that if she dies it will be his fault. He doesn't have a feeling of great loss or worried about her. When Neville tells Harry that Hermione is alive. He is extremelly relief but doesn't show urge to carry her and get her some place safe. Instead he commands Neville to do it. He shows no intentions to carry her and Neville ends up doing it alone. For all Hermione has done for Harry, he showed very little concern for her well being. That is off course IMHO.

Quite honestly, GilyAnn, I'm not sure what you expected him to do. The kid fell down beside her and couldn't even look her in the face, he was so panicked. We get practically an entire page of him flipping out, and once he is assured that she's all right, he is light-headed with relief. From what you've made it sound like, I would have imagined him to take one look at her knocked out cold on the floor and say, "Eh, who cares."

Granted, I understand that from your perspective, his reaction to Ginny--a girl whom he barely knew--being taken into the Chamber was more powerful. I know that you're making a point based on your own opinion. However, it appears that you interpreted Harry's undeniable panic and concern over a friend as being cold-hearted apathy for some person he couldn't care less about. This treads dangerously close to distortion of the text: I thought it was commonly accepted among all shippers that Harry and Hermione are at the very least friends. The implication that Harry barely batted an eyelash at Hermione being cursed is stretching it.

Earendil: just thinking about your post, it's interesting how the younger Harry had a more straightforward attachment to the Weasleys. They were like his ideal family. In OOTP, especially during the Christmas period, he starts to see limits to his relationship with them, more shades of grey.

Very true. Harry's ideals changed drastically between CoS and OotP, didn't they? He used to think that everything would be fine and dandy once he was with the Weasleys: now he is beginning to experience feelings that indicate that they are not necessarily the solutions to all his problems. In fact, his changing attitudes toward the Weasleys closely represents that of a true family. When a person is young, they feel that they will always be safe with their parents or siblings; that if they're with their family, nothing can hurt them. As the person matures, they realize that even their parents aren't invincible. With Harry, it's on a larger scale, because he faces difficulties that the Weasleys can't possibly relate to. I do think that, to some degree, this increased distance from them will inevitably bring him closer to them--but to bring this back to the topic of this thread, I don't think that OBHWF is going to ultimately solve all his problems. The Weasleys are obviously important to him and to his eventual quest for survival and self-realization, but I don't think he can ever become a part of their family, even if he ends up with Ginny.

Some awesome posts in the last few pages--Turambar, Hawk, FP, evaluna, and everyone--take a :clap: and treasure it forever. :elaugh:

Has anyone else gone through this forum from imdb.com?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0304141/board/thread/2157696
the topic's mainly a collection of statements from JKR's previous interviews, implying what would become of Harry's romance in the future. I, for once, still believe of H/Hr romance in the works...though I won't be disappointed if Harry ends up with someone else.

Why does JKR have to write another Weasley? There are six boys already and Ginny seems to have some qualities of all of the brothers, but she writes a girl character,

Many characters in HP serve as contrasting figures for someone else. Draco, for example, serves as a contrasting figure for Ron. While Ron belongs to a large family of seven people, Draco is an only child. While Ron is poor, Draco is rich. While Ron is Harry's friend, Draco is Harry's enemy. Draco also serves as contrast for Harry. Draco and Harry have many similarities; both are rich and both have some similar qualities; Draco is talented in quidditch and he is also wealthy. Harry is also fairly rich. Both nearly ended up in Slytherin. The only difference is that Harry chose not to go down the dark route.
Anyhow, my point is, Ginny's purpose in HP, is to serve as a contrasting figure to Hermione. In the beginning of the PS/SS, we get the shy little girl image of Ginny clinging to Molly's hand. After hearing that Harry Potter is on the train, she shrieked and begged to go and see him. Ginny was clearly overwhelmed by the fact that the "boy who lived" was only a couple of feet away. Fangirl behavior or not, Ginny's reaction was definitely drastically different from Hermione's. While Ginny viewed Harry as an idol, Hermione barely acknowledged him and brushed it off. Hermione, being a muggle, doesn't care about "the boy who lived"; she may have read about Harry, but she never truly views him as a star that most wizards and witches do. JKR could be showing two completely different reactions to Harry through Hermione and Ginny.

Why did every post have to be so long? Wow. Anyhoo great posts on all fronts. I'd just like to add some stuff if it's all right.

I would say in OotP when she said to Hermione that she used to fancy Harry but she is over him. She now considers him a friend. I speak for myself only and not for the crew of the HMS Harmony.

I'm still going to say that 'giving up' and 'being over' are two different things. I'm sure you'll disagree? :D

After all Kurt Warner could possibly lead the Rams to the Super Bowl but I don't think that will happen at all.

Who's Kurt Warner?

Not so much personal preference as to the fact that I saw Hermione's "you're a great wizard, Harry" in SS/PS as containing similar forms of potential romantic imagery and concepts as the idea of Harry rescuing Ginny from the Chamber. My point is that both scenes have the potential to be construed as romantic: which is the one being hidden behind the constrainsts of young age in order to disguise the actual romance?

Because I'm a shipper and therefore will be biased, I say that the CoS rescue scene was the romantic one. :elaugh:

fairy dust: I agree with you that giving up and being over are different. I Think Ginney still has a thing, but it is in the process of maturing from a bubble-gum little girl crush to more of an appreciative love. Yes, she does date, but is more for the fun of it. Since Harry has not shown any reciprication (sp?) of her feelings, I think she is just trying to keep it on the back burner.


also, fyi : Kurt warner is an american football player quarterback for the st. Louis rams and is right up there with Peter pettigrew on my list of yucky people since I am from Chicago.

I'll agree with that. I think that Ginny's either hiding her feelings or is seriously trying to get over Harry or is in serious denial of her feelings for him. Alebit we don't have any real clues, but it just doesn't make sense to have a four year liking for someone just to have it disappear like that. (I'm snapping my fingers ;))

I disagree about the bubble gum little girl crush, though. I mean, in PS maybe CoS it was that. But I seriously think her liking for him became more than just bubblegum fluff in PoA.

Also, thanks for the info. I'm not that big a football fan (I like rugby a whole lot better.)

First, I don't see any comparison between the H/Hr scene at Philosophers stone and the chamber....
Second, I don't know how JK could have written Ginny's character as a fangirl and not use it at all....
And I also always mention this.....there was a reason why it was Ginny who was posessed by Voldemort, that it was Ginny who "opened" the chamber. It created a bond between them, Dumbledore said when a wizard saves another life it creates a special bond between or something like that.
I also don't see why JK would write Ron having a crush on Hermione and then, after all the years, Hermione ends up with....Harry? Why would she then, write the crush.....Its my own personal opinion.

I'd have to ask the same questions, ana banana.

Had to edit because I didn't want anyone to get the idea that I was dissing on anyone or any ship or whatnot.

To FD
dont worry about the romantic scene thing. I have never able to see any of them. (for whatever ship). I can see them logically after analysis the scene but I never see any with emotional effect.

As for the many why
1)why write about Ron crush?
a)creat another problem between ron and harry.
b)another crush is shallow scene(cho and Harry)
c)it is going to happen with R/Hr.
d)plan the way for Ron's betray(dont do flame me, I am just listing possibility here :lol: )
e)may be there is not crush at all??? :elaugh:
2)why write Ginny as fangirl?
a)provide some fangirl scene in COS(i think it is very nicely done to show harry how fan affect him in COS)
b)show how stupid most fan are. (by the way,we must make sure we are not over worship JKR, she is just another author) :lol:
c)Of course there is always the possibility that G/H happen.

Lifebond
This topic have to debate to dead already. You can find many info on it. Ask some of the people here. (I dont keep record of the post, sorry. but i think there is some on the love thread version 4 at the very end of it)

given up or move on???
I have already have a post on the topic. Here is some summary of it.
move on
If she is move on because she lose interested, wouldnt it mean the H/G has very little chance?
If she is simply given up
This imply that she see something that is not favorable for H/G. It could very well be H/C. However,it could also be H/Hr as Ginny is a good friend with Hermione. Let rule out H/Hr in Ginny's eyes for now. Why Ginny has not worked her charm on Harry? If she was too shy to do, she is no longer the shy one anymore. It seem very strange that she move on to other guys before she has tried her charm on Harry.

given up or move on???
I have already have a post on the topic. Here is some summary of it.
move on
If she is move on because she lose interested, wouldnt it mean the H/G has very little chance?

It's never said that she's lost interest. It's just said that she "gave up". It kind of ****** me off because I really want to know what she's feeling.


If she is simply given up
This imply that she see something that is not favorable for H/G. It could very well be H/C. However,it could also be H/Hr as Ginny is a good friend with Hermione. Let rule out H/Hr in Ginny's eyes for now. Why Ginny has not worked her charm on Harry? If she was too shy to do, she is no longer the shy one anymore. It seem very strange that she move on to other guys before she has tried her charm on Harry.

Right now let's leave H/Hr out of this. In GoF right after Haqrry's turned down by the Cho he goes over to Ron and Ginny and tells Ron that Cho's going with Cedric because he just asked her out and she turned him down. Right after that. The sentence right after was "Ginny suddenly stopped smiling." Skip a few paragraphs to right after she tells Ron and Harry that she's going with Neville. This is right after Ron makes the suggestion for Harry to go with Ginny because he didn't have a date. We didn't get Harry's opinion on that for one thing. Anyhoo, jump to the part where she looks extremely miserable.

I'm going to try and make sense of this. I hardly ever make sense so bear with me. :D

-Harry tells Ron and Ginny that he got turned down by Cho.
-Ginny suddenly stops smiling
-the suggestion is given of Ginny going with Harry
-she has to refuse, looks miserable and goes to dinner

Before OotP, Ginny was a somewhat shy person around Harry. She could talk to him for the most part. I mean, she was able to string sentences together and everything. The only time she was nervous around Harry was when she first saw him and he grinned at her and Hermione. That was when she went "scarlet." After the Yule Brawl we learn nothing else of Ginny. She doesn't have much interaction with Harry save right before the third task and even then we don't read of her talking to him or anything.

OotP, she's got a boyfriend. She's got some charm otherwise she wouldn't have gotten Michael and possible now Dean.

The question you asked though is why she didn't usse or try her charm on Harry. My answer is that she couldn't. She was totally into him and to find out so brutally that he liked another girl probably crushed her hope of ever having him think more of her. Rather than demean herself by trying to work her charm like say Cho did or does, Ginny just gave up on Harry.

What's the point of trying? I think that's the question that Ginny probably asked herself after she found out about Cho. So no need to work the charm.

Okay, hope this makes sense. If it doesn't then :rasp: . No I'm joking... :p

In a scene at the Leaky Cauldron earlier in the series, Molly once mentioned to Ginny and Hermione that she once made love potions when she was a girl. Every since that time, I always wondered whether or not Ginny would pick up such a skill from her mother and use it for some reckless purpose down the road. I didn't think Ginny would dare use a love potion on Harry, but I thought she might if it came down to desperation time. Now that Ginny has finally gotten over Harry, a better prospect for Harry may become availible. GO LUNA!!

I start to wonder about Ginny. I really start to wonder because there seems to be two different Ginnys. One is canon and the other one is fairly to much interpret in her, thats my understanding if I read some statesments.

See I don't think it dos any good for H/G ship to say that Harry reacted that way about Ginny in COS because it was only Ginny, who he not knowed.
GilyAnn said if it were Percy, Harry did react not like that. I disagree it would be still the worst day of Harry whole life. There it would be just the same because at this time Percy might be not his favouriet Weasley but still he did like him. He knew him after all only one year so Harry can't dislike Percy by the way it was obvious that Percy and Ginny are the dearst of Mrs. Weasley.

Probably Harry did feel like that because he like or love Mrs. Weasley at this point or that he just love this family and don't want any bad things happen to them and to lose the only girl, who was the youngest of them, is the badest thing what can happen.

Clearly this scenes were not about Ginny it was about the Weasleys.

For me is that belittleing the important part of this Family only to make Ginny more important and this I don't really like. But thats only me.

About Ginny and why is her "fan-crush" in this books for 4 years.
Its necessary for Harry. How would Harry understand to be famous if there weren't a girl who has this crush for him? Harry has to learn in this serie that he is famous and that this people around him don't like him because he is Harry rather because he is Harry Potter. Thats why Ginny is there and thats why her crush is there. Its like a popstar see a girl which is madly in love with this guy but he just don't want her love. Do you expect he turns around and think "There must be a reason why she is there, maybe I should fall for her..."?
I'm for sure don't expect this and don't even want it.

For me is it the fact that Harry did rescue her in COS what make this crush live longer. See in PS/SS she saw him and was directly for him. In COS we see what a year or rather 4 or 6 weeks can do if you go and think to much about on person which you don't know. I mean her brothers do know this hero, they are even friends. Let say if Ginny were like Ron gone in this year to school (PS/SS) I'm sure her crush didn't exist like that.
Ginny did start to dream, to fantasie about Harry. First she know him only from this hero-books and his general story and its an amazing story. This guy isn't only on paper he is real and she gonna to know him, him the savior of the magic world. Its like knowing Jesus for someone who believe in him. Off course she speaks always about him and is shy if he is at least there. COS don't help her much. Its rather worst as before.
Now her hero did rescue her. Now she think she is special that she has this expierince. He did even speak to her and all this stuff. Now comes PoA Ginny is in her little own world but this nice world fade away as she see her hero on the floor, weak he did faint where she didn't and nobody else.
There she begin to wake up from her dream. Than he fells again. In PoA Harry looks so weak like never before and that change Ginnys thinking about Harry. But in the and Harry dos again save the day but nobody knows so they only know 100 dementors did attack them and he did survive.
Now GoF slowly Ginny get Harry dos ignore her. She is now able to look at him and to speak to him but its the very first time so she is still shy, still get red but PoA did clearly change her view about Hero!Harry. As she got Harry is interest in other girls like Cho is it for Ginny clear that her "Fan-crush" isn't it worth. Its waste of time.
See it was a progress of 2 years and not suddenly "Ah, there is another live." Ginny needed time to get over Harry and she did after 2 years of doubt decide to go on. To make a move away from Hero!Harry. Maybe it was Neville who did encourage her to go on.
We see in OotP the result thats all.

Now its for me hard to believe that someone really want that Ginny falls back for Harry. This is like a slapp into the face. I mean this girl needed 2 years to solve this crush and now where she has her live back you want or say she falls back? Sorry but thats like we do as if Ginny didn't grow through this two years as if she didn't realise the truth. I would give it a try in ten years if Harry isn't anymore the hero and she has her own live than yeah it would be a nice story but so after two years of growing she lives a whole year free and just falls back for Harry?
You know I was once a teenager and at this time I did always go on and did never look back and if I solved a problem or feeling I did go on longer with this new live as one or two years. Its more like 3 years or so only an event could have change this. Like dead, something what let you again wake up.

Quite honestly, GilyAnn, I'm not sure what you expected him to do. The kid fell down beside her and couldn't even look her in the face, he was so panicked. We get practically an entire page of him flipping out, and once he is assured that she's all right, he is light-headed with relief. From what you've made it sound like, I would have imagined him to take one look at her knocked out cold on the floor and say, "Eh, who cares."

Thats my thinking right now, too.
What do you expect from him? That he crys a river or that he starts a monolog like Hamlet how much she means to him. Just imagine your best friend lies there and you jumps up runs around and hold this little monologe.
Now seriously how he react is perfectly normal and it shows he cares about Hermione very much. But this scene isn't there to get at this point "How much he love her!" Hell, he is in shock. Even it were Cho he did react just the same, maybe less at this because it was his fault, because He don't want her to be dead. Because his whole world would be a different. If Harry had so much time like in COS to think about it and to think Hermione is really away I'm sure he did react more like that. More emotional. Just picture it No Hermione who is there and tells him to annoy him or nagg him. Thats just cruel, isn't it? Even if she did annoy him at times I'm sure he would miss this. Harry had time in COS to think about it but in OoTP He didn't have time. All what he had was panic and shock that in one second she was beaming at him and the other she was lying nearlly dead on the floor. Thats shock pure. Its not you expect this and in COS Harry did expect to find Ginny like that.
Its the easiest way to think: Don't let her be dead
thats more pleading as just: Don't be dead.
Why? Because the first one is as if he plead to someone who has more power, like god. The second one is more directly to the victim.
If you start to plead to a higher instance than you really without any power and its desperaly as anything before.
There is the highest different between this two scenes. He speaks in COS directly to Ginny but in OotP his pleading is not directed to Hermione its directed to a God or destiny to a higher instance, to someone who decide if she is dead or not. Thats a lot more powerful as the other one. In COS its sound as if Ginny decide if she is dead or not, as if she is to blame if she decide to die.

I think I have done it....

_____________________________

Anyway I like to bring some thoughts in this debatte about Ron and his feelings or rather Hermione's feelings.
Maybe more about that it seems Harry comes always first by Hermione.

This is probably my problem to believe Hermione likes or love Ron.
See I expect from someone who did fall for Ron in GoF that this one mention or turns first to Ron and not Harry.
That is what Luna for example do. Right she turns at times to Harry but in other examples she just ignore Harry and go straight to Ron.
For once as she wished Ron luck. Remember how she did it? I do and its quiet interesting if we compare this with Hermione. She say it only to Ron not to Harry thats interesting...

JKR did say Luna is the anti-Hermione and I believe her because there is it not focused at Harry thats probably what I like her so much. Hermiones doing is focused for and about Harry but not Ron. He comes always as second choice. Even as she go and do thank them for the perfume. First a big thank you to Harry and than a comment to Ron.

If she is in love or has feelings for Ron than she should at least show in such little instance like thank Ron first or to turn to Ron first. Just to let us the reader know Ron comes first but this did never happen.

The best you see it as it comes to the Prefect-badges by Harry she was happy and all but by Ron? Allright I understand she didn't expect it and all but hey she is supposed to like him to have pink glasses on. After the shock let say she smiles and is happy for Ron and might add how happy she is for him that he did get it even his mother who clearly know Ron isn't the smartest is happy and wear this pink-glasses but Hermione? After Mrs. Weasley comes in she shut up. She is with Harry silent because she know that Harry feels rather bad about it than happy for Ron. She don't is in it as Fred, George and Mrs. Weasley are celebrate this. Nothing only silents. After a while as the twins start to make jokes about Ron than at least Hermione say something.
Why not a Hermione who give Ron a hug, for example? By the way thats where I did place this kiss if I were JKR and did want to write R/Hr there would nobody debatte if it was to cover any badges "Weasley is our King"

We never, really never see Hermione happy about anything Ron did. I mean really happy like glowing or gleaming she is it if its about Harry but never about Ron. Or did you once read she shrikred for joy because of Ron? I for once not.
This is really something what is indeed strange isn't it? I mean if you like someone you are happy to see him. Only one scene, just one scene where Hermione is like that but nothing. She isn't, she isn't more happy for Ron as for Harry. Its more the other way she is it by Harry. She is happy for Harry, sad for Harry, crys for Harry. But Ron where is that for Ron.
Some emotions, some honest emotions like shaking hands, like trempling all this is happening for Harry. But by Ron? Angry, yelling, boring.

How much I want to understand R/Hr I just can't understand Hermione if this is what will happen. Probably I'm daft or just to stupid or worst I ask too many questions but honestly how will I know R/Hr is there if Hermione is that cold against Ron, if Hermione never shows more as friendship

Fairydust

I'm still going to say that 'giving up' and 'being over' are two different things. I'm sure you'll disagree?

I’m afraid that you’ll have to tell me how they are different for me to disagree. Or how you see them as different. I don’t like to disagree just to disagree.

I'll agree with that. I think that Ginny's either hiding her feelings or is seriously trying to get over Harry or is in serious denial of her feelings for him. Alebit we don't have any real clues, but it just doesn't make sense to have a four year liking for someone just to have it disappear like that. (I'm snapping my fingers )

Loves and crushes come and go in the 4 years that you are talking about though. Ginny was the ages of 10-13. Some people fall in and out of love 2 or 3 times a week in that age group. And you said it perfectly. We don’t have any clues to suggest anything other than the fact that Ginny is over Harry and has moved on with her life.

I disagree about the bubble gum little girl crush, though. I mean, in PS maybe CoS it was that. But I seriously think her liking for him became more than just bubblegum fluff in PoA.

Here I am going to disagree. What in PoA would lead you to believe that Ginny’s love progressed from a bubble gum girl crush to this whole deep level?

It's never said that she's lost interest. It's just said that she "gave up". It kind of ****** me off because I really want to know what she's feeling.

That she is over Harry and has moved on with her life.

-Harry tells Ron and Ginny that he got turned down by Cho.
-Ginny suddenly stops smiling
-the suggestion is given of Ginny going with Harry
-she has to refuse, looks miserable and goes to dinner

All of this happens pre Yule Ball. At the Yule Ball is where she meets Michael.

The question you asked though is why she didn't usse or try her charm on Harry. My answer is that she couldn't. She was totally into him and to find out so brutally that he liked another girl probably crushed her hope of ever having him think more of her. Rather than demean herself by trying to work her charm like say Cho did or does, Ginny just gave up on Harry.

What's the point of trying? I think that's the question that Ginny probably asked herself after she found out about Cho. So no need to work the charm.

But who did Michael run off to comfort? Cho. So Ginny knew that Harry was available again. And she still did not turn on the charm as you call it. She considers Dean more worthy of the charm. But what you have to look at is that Ginny knew that Harry and Cho was done at this point, and as you pointed out she used this charm on Michael. So then its on to Dean, strengthening the case that Ginny is really over Harry.

thesnitch and you

also, fyi : Kurt warner is an american football player quarterback for the st. Louis rams and is right up there with Peter pettigrew on my list of yucky people since I am from Chicago.

Da Bears eh? You have my sincerest condolences.

Cheers!

Quite honestly, GilyAnn, I'm not sure what you expected him to do. The kid fell down beside her and couldn't even look her in the face, he was so panicked. We get practically an entire page of him flipping out, and once he is assured that she's all right, he is light-headed with relief. From what you've made it sound like, I would have imagined him to take one look at her knocked out cold on the floor and say, "Eh, who cares."

Granted, I understand that from your perspective, his reaction to Ginny--a girl whom he barely knew--being taken into the Chamber was more powerful. I know that you're making a point based on your own opinion. However, it appears that you interpreted Harry's undeniable panic and concern over a friend as being cold-hearted apathy for some person he couldn't care less about. This treads dangerously close to distortion of the text: I thought it was commonly accepted among all shippers that Harry and Hermione are at the very least friends. The implication that Harry barely batted an eyelash at Hermione being cursed is stretching it.

What did I expect? I expected a lot more than him thinking that if she died it was going to be his fault. I expected him to be a lot more concern for her. I expected him to carry her and take her to a safe place instead of commanding Neville to do it and then hesitate when ask for help. If Harry had 'feelings' for Hermione, like some H/Hr shippers say he does, I expected a stronger reaction and much more care for Hermione.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't have care about Ginny but considering how little he knew Ginny he was way sad over her 'death'. This to the point that it 'was the worst he'd ever felt'. I personally think that Harry's reaction was the normal for a friend but not the one of a future boyfriend.

I'll agree with that. I think that Ginny's either hiding her feelings or is seriously trying to get over Harry or is in serious denial of her feelings for him. Alebit we don't have any real clues, but it just doesn't make sense to have a four year liking for someone just to have it disappear like that.

I think she is on serious denial over the feelings. This was after the yule ball and we all know what happend on the unexpected task. You have a clue on Ginny's abnormal little interest on Michael Corner.

If she is simply given up
This imply that she see something that is not favorable for H/G. It could very well be H/C. However,it could also be H/Hr as Ginny is a good friend with Hermione. Let rule out H/Hr in Ginny's eyes for now. Why Ginny has not worked her charm on Harry? If she was too shy to do, she is no longer the shy one anymore. It seem very strange that she move on to other guys before she has tried her charm on Harry.

Because Ginny doesn't think that Harry will ever return her feelings. She has no hope of Harry noticing her. Why do something that it's a futile effort? All of this on her mind.

The question you asked though is why she didn't usse or try her charm on Harry. My answer is that she couldn't. She was totally into him and to find out so brutally that he liked another girl probably crushed her hope of ever having him think more of her. Rather than demean herself by trying to work her charm like say Cho did or does, Ginny just gave up on Harry.

Exactly

Molly once mentioned to Ginny and Hermione that she once made love potions when she was a girl. Every since that time, I always wondered whether or not Ginny would pick up such a skill from her mother and use it for some reckless purpose down the road. I didn't think Ginny would dare use a love potion on Harry, but I thought she might if it came down to desperation time.

Yet she never does. It's a big clue that even though she trully likes him, she won't got to extremes for him. Yes she is 'languishing in love' but he wants Harry to like her for who she is.

GilyAnn said if it were Percy, Harry did react not like that. I disagree it would be still the worst day of Harry whole life. There it would be just the same because at this time Percy might be not his favouriet Weasley but still he did like him. He knew him after all only one year so Harry can't dislike Percy by the way it was obvious that Percy and Ginny are the dearst of Mrs. Weasley.

Probably Harry did feel like that because he like or love Mrs. Weasley at this point or that he just love this family and don't want any bad things happen to them and to lose the only girl, who was the youngest of them, is the badest thing what can happen.

Clearly this scenes were not about Ginny it was about the Weasleys.

For me is that belittleing the important part of this Family only to make Ginny more important and this I don't really like. But thats only me.

You think so? :whistle: Let's see:

Harry could see the sun sinking, blood-red, below the skyline. This was the worst he had ever felt. If only there was something they could do. Anything.

"Harry," said Ron. "D'you think there's any chance at all he's not -- you know--"

Harry didn't know what to say. He couldn't see how Percy could still be alive.



Harry heard Ron gasp and looked up again. He had made up his mind what he was going to do.

"I'm going down there," he said.

He couldn't not go, not now they had found the entrance to the the chamber, not if there was even the faintest, slimmest, wildest chance that Percy might be alive.

"Me too," said Ron.




"Percy" Harry muttered, printing to her and dropping to his knees. "Percy -- don't be dead -- please don't be dead --" He flung his wand aside, grabbed Percy's shoulders, and turned him over. His face was white as marble, and as cold, yet his eyes were closed, so he wasn't petrified. But then he must be --

"Percy, please wake up," Harry muttered desperately, shaking him. Percy's head lolled hopelessly from side to side.


Now if you think that Harry's reaction to Percy is the same. I have to say that you have a lot of a clearer mind than I do.

If Harry would have felt bad for the Weasley's I think JKR would have try to make it clear. But she didn't. Clearly Harry's feelings are clearly because of Ginny not the Weasley's.


About Ginny and why is her "fan-crush" in this books for 4 years.
Its necessary for Harry. How would Harry understand to be famous if there weren't a girl who has this crush for him? Harry has to learn in this serie that he is famous and that this people around him don't like him because he is Harry rather because he is Harry Potter. Thats why Ginny is there and thats why her crush is there. Its like a popstar see a girl which is madly in love with this guy but he just don't want her love. Do you expect he turns around and think "There must be a reason why she is there, maybe I should fall for her..."?
I'm for sure don't expect this and don't even want it.

Funny because JKR made it clear that the Rita Seeker character and her doings were specificlly created to make Harry understand the depth of his fame. It was rather clear to me that JKR made Harry deal with his fame and the fact that some people like him and some don't all in the fourth book. But Ginny wasn't included there. And yes I do expect Harry one day to 'wake up' and think of all the time he has waisted ignoring Ginny. When he could have been with somone that loved him a lot.

See in PS/SS she saw him and was directly for him. In COS we see what a year or rather 4 or 6 weeks can do if you go and think to much about on person which you don't know. I mean her brothers do know this hero, they are even friends. Let say if Ginny were like Ron gone in this year to school (PS/SS) I'm sure her crush didn't exist like that.
Ginny did start to dream, to fantasie about Harry. First she know him only from this hero-books and his general story and its an amazing story. This guy isn't only on paper he is real and she gonna to know him, him the savior of the magic world. Its like knowing Jesus for someone who believe in him. Off course she speaks always about him and is shy if he is at least there. COS don't help her much. Its rather worst as before.
Now her hero did rescue her. Now she think she is special that she has this expierince. He did even speak to her and all this stuff. Now comes PoA Ginny is in her little own world but this nice world fade away as she see her hero on the floor, weak he did faint where she didn't and nobody else.
There she begin to wake up from her dream. Than he fells again. In PoA Harry looks so weak like never before and that change Ginnys thinking about Harry. But in the and Harry dos again save the day but nobody knows so they only know 100 dementors did attack them and he did survive.
Now GoF slowly Ginny get Harry dos ignore her. She is now able to look at him and to speak to him but its the very first time so she is still shy, still get red but PoA did clearly change her view about Hero!Harry. As she got Harry is interest in other girls like Cho is it for Ginny clear that her "Fan-crush" isn't it worth. Its waste of time.
See it was a progress of 2 years and not suddenly "Ah, there is another live." Ginny needed time to get over Harry and she did after 2 years of doubt decide to go on. To make a move away from Hero!Harry. Maybe it was Neville who did encourage her to go on.

First: Can somone please tells me where in the books say that Ginny 'knew' Harry from books. A page would be greatly appreciated. I've seen that on many fanfics but I have jet to discovered it in cannon.

Second Where does it also say that Ginny knew that Harry had saved everyone from like a 100 dementors? I've read PoA in a while so perhaps I missed it. I would have though that Ginny's attraction to Harry was still going strong this since she did brough him that get well card to him. Clearly knowing and understading what it felt like to be near a dementor. Perhaps I missed a part where is it that we know that Ginny was dissapointed that Harry crumble from the dementors and stuff?

Third I missed also the part were Neville encourages Ginny to move on. I haven't even heard of Neville addressing Ginny's atraction towards Harry. It was clear that Ginny gave up because of her not because any one else told her to.

Now its for me hard to believe that someone really want that Ginny falls back for Harry. This is like a slapp into the face. I mean this girl needed 2 years to solve this crush and now where she has her live back you want or say she falls back? Sorry but thats like we do as if Ginny didn't grow through this two years as if she didn't realise the truth. I would give it a try in ten years if Harry isn't anymore the hero and she has her own live than yeah it would be a nice story but so after two years of growing she lives a whole year free and just falls back for Harry?

Well believe it because I want Ginny to 'fall' (like you mention. I do believe she is still in it) for Harry. And even more I want Harry to 'languish' hard for Ginny. That for me makes a good story line and one very funny also.

Now seriously how he react is perfectly normal and it shows he cares about Hermione very much. But this scene isn't there to get at this point "How much he love her!" Hell, he is in shock. Even it were Cho he did react just the same, maybe less at this because it was his fault, because He don't want her to be dead. Because his whole world would be a different. If Harry had so much time like in COS to think about it and to think Hermione is really away I'm sure he did react more like that. More emotional. Just picture it No Hermione who is there and tells him to annoy him or nagg him. Thats just cruel, isn't it? Even if she did annoy him at times I'm sure he would miss this. Harry had time in COS to think about it but in OoTP He didn't have time. All what he had was panic and shock that in one second she was beaming at him and the other she was lying nearlly dead on the floor. Thats shock pure. Its not you expect this and in COS Harry did expect to find Ginny like that.
Its the easiest way to think: Don't let her be dead
thats more pleading as just: Don't be dead.
Why? Because the first one is as if he plead to someone who has more power, like god. The second one is more directly to the victim.
If you start to plead to a higher instance than you really without any power and its desperaly as anything before.
There is the highest different between this two scenes. He speaks in COS directly to Ginny but in OotP his pleading is not directed to Hermione its directed to a God or destiny to a higher instance, to someone who decide if she is dead or not. Thats a lot more powerful as the other one. In COS its sound as if Ginny decide if she is dead or not, as if she is to blame if she decide to die.

Actually he did plead in CoS(if we are going to call it pleading):

[/I]"Ginny!" Harry muttered, sprinting to her and dropping to his knees. "Ginny -- don't be dead -- please don't be dead --" He flung his wand aside, grabbed Ginny's shoulders, and turned her over.[I]

Emphasis mine. If we are going to talk about pleading to a higher authority then in here Harry is even on his knees(he drops also in Hermione's case, checking her) .

I'm sorry to say that Hermione's nagging is one of the things that I don't think that Harry will miss. Even in CoS when Hermione was absent a good time. He didn't miss her. Neither on PoA in their fight.

I’m afraid that you’ll have to tell me how they are different for me to disagree. Or how you see them as different. I don’t like to disagree just to disagree.

I'll take that question also because I also think they are different. Gotten over means that you no longer harbor ANY feelings for the person. Given up means that while you do have an issue you no longer have hope of this coming true. But that doesn't stop you from 'languish in love'.

Here I am going to disagree. What in PoA would lead you to believe that Ginny’s love progressed from a bubble gum girl crush to this whole deep level?

A bubble gum crush wouldn't understand her hero's feelings over something so depressing like dementors. Ginny brings Harry a get well card clearly showing simpathy and understanding over something so depressing and sad as the Demenotors. Even when she was blushing furiously and felt deeply embarassed she brought him a card to cheer him up and show him understanding.

But who did Michael run off to comfort? Cho. So Ginny knew that Harry was available again. And she still did not turn on the charm as you call it. She considers Dean more worthy of the charm. But what you have to look at is that Ginny knew that Harry and Cho was done at this point, and as you pointed out she used this charm on Michael. So then its on to Dean, strengthening the case that Ginny is really over Harry.

LOL Ginny has suddenly a charm that she can instantly turn men to like her? I knew she was good but not this good!

Seriously speaking. Well as I have said before she doesn't think Harry will return her feelings why try (this on her mind) if Harry won't ever return her feelings.

Fairydust I love your signature!

Gily Ann

Now if you think that Harry's reaction to Percy is the same. I have to say that you have a lot of a clearer mind than I do

Whats wrong with this picture if we chose Percy? Nothing. Even as I read it your Percy-Scene it was just the same nothing different.

Funny because JKR made it clear that the Rita Seeker character and her doings were specificlly created to make Harry understand the depth of his fame. It was rather clear to me that JKR made Harry deal with his fame and the fact that some people like him and some don't all in the fourth book. But Ginny wasn't included there. And yes I do expect Harry one day to 'wake up' and think of all the time he has waisted ignoring Ginny. When he could have been with somone that loved him a lot.

Rightm, she did. But it has to be a building up to this one. Than you could ask for what do we have Colin? Its just the same question, isn it? Colin and Ginny are there to prepare Harry what might come in future. You can't expect that fame jumps out off no where. It has to built up. Every year it gos further. Take for an example Harry the son from Prince Charles as he was a baby he wasn't that interest like he is it now. This grows and by Harry Potter did this too.

First: Can somone please tells me where in the books say that Ginny 'knew' Harry from books. A page would be greatly appreciated. I've seen that on many fanfics but I have jet to discovered it in cannon.

Its logical to think so because in PS/SS as the twins said they meet Harry Potter was it Ginny who said "Harry Potter!" so she knew him. But how? Harry did never meet her. But how does she know his name? Hermione gives us an answer. He is many books. But wait you right the Weasleys probably to poor to have books. What about every evening before she got to bed get a Goodnight tale about a boy who did saivor the magic world that everybody could live in peace again. So she knew him before she did meet him.

Second Where does it also say that Ginny knew that Harry had saved everyone from like a 100 dementors? I've read PoA in a while so perhaps I missed it.

Its in OotP I think so but well it don't do much if she didn't knew or? I mean its said that dementors did attack him in PoA and I guess Ron might have to explain what did happen so I guess she knew. If not it don't change a thing.

Third I missed also the part were Neville encourages Ginny to move on. I haven't even heard of Neville addressing Ginny's atraction towards Harry. It was clear that Ginny gave up because of her not because any one else told her to.

I didn't say Neville did tell her to go on. I mean more his action to ask her to the ball, that say that he was interested in her as girl might have encourage her to look on the ball around. She was at least with someone else together who didn't ignore her.

I'm sorry to say that Hermione's nagging is one of the things that I don't think that Harry will miss. Even in CoS when Hermione was absent a good time. He didn't miss her. Neither on PoA in their fight.

If someone dies who you had always around you than you miss even the bad things.

One could easily apply the exact same argument to the scene between Harry and Hermione at the end of PS/SS. The possible romantic implications of a scene like this are equally (or, in my own opinion, even more) powerful as the CoS scene. I'm not, however, arguing which scene is more poignant; my point is that if two scenes that contain heavy romantic imagery and concepts both occur when the participants are too young to be considered obvious foreshadowing, how do you know which of the two scenes is actually supposed to foreshadow the final romance?

Let's assume for a moment, that one of the scenes is definitely a romantic foreshadowing, but not the other. In Philosopher's Stone, Hermione says to Harry, "Me? Books! Cleverness! There are more important things. Friendship, bravery...oh, Harry, be careful!" Personally, I believe that the use of the word friendship is the key there. She views Harry as a friend. A true friend, from the tone of the statement. It's definitely natural for her to be worried, just as it is for Harry to be worried in CoS. When Harry sees Ginny lying on the floor, it's a rather different story. She looks dead. She's white as marble, won't wake when he shakes. But a key thing afterwords, is that Ginny likes Harry as more than a friend. True, that affection may be more due to his fame, but she does know him a little from his stay at the Burrow and such. I'd lay my bet on the Chamber scene being the foreshadowing example.

Let's assume for a moment, that one of the scenes is definitely a romantic foreshadowing, but not the other. In Philosopher's Stone, Hermione says to Harry, "Me? Books! Cleverness! There are more important things. Friendship, bravery...oh, Harry, be careful!" Personally, I believe that the use of the word friendship is the key there. She views Harry as a friend. A true friend, from the tone of the statement.

I view it quite differently. Friendship is the key word but so is the bravery and the unspoken word (which I think is love) and in that order. Friendship, the first thing Hermione sees in Harry, then bravery, then love. Why is it unspoken then? Because that is not where they are....yet. They are not ready for that, but they will be. It has been growing ever since then.

The problem with Ron is that, we do not get past that the friendship part. Even when he likes Hermione, he is more content to sit at the sidelines and complain about what Hermione is doing with any other guy rather than be that any other guy himself. He lacks the courage, he is not in love with Hermione though he clearly loves Hermione.

I view it quite differently. Friendship is the key word but so is the bravery and the unspoken word (which I think is love) and in that order. Friendship, the first thing Hermione sees in Harry, then bravery, then love. Why is it unspoken then? Because that is not where they are....yet. They are not ready for that, but they will be. It has been growing ever since then.
That's a long time to have to grow - and apparently they're still not ready 5 years later. Indulge me:

Give me some idea (prediction/speculation/whatever) as to what might be the catalyst that will indicate to them that they are ready. Or what threshold of 'spiritual closeness' they must reach (and how that threshold will be defined), that will indicate to them that they are ready.

Whats wrong with this picture if we chose Percy? Nothing. Even as I read it your Percy-Scene it was just the same nothing different.

You certainly have a cleaner mind that I do.

Rightm, she did. But it has to be a building up to this one. Than you could ask for what do we have Colin? Its just the same question, isn it? Colin and Ginny are there to prepare Harry what might come in future. You can't expect that fame jumps out off no where. It has to built up. Every year it gos further. Take for an example Harry the son from Prince Charles as he was a baby he wasn't that interest like he is it now. This grows and by Harry Potter did this too.

When was it that she said that Ginny and Colin prepare Harry for the future? I don't recall that. I certainly though that the whole Colin thing was to hints us that he was one of the future attacks. He hasn't seen much after that.

Its logical to think so because in PS/SS as the twins said they meet Harry Potter was it Ginny who said "Harry Potter!" so she knew him. But how? Harry did never meet her. But how does she know his name? Hermione gives us an answer. He is many books. But wait you right the Weasleys probably to poor to have books. What about every evening before she got to bed get a Goodnight tale about a boy who did saivor the magic world that everybody could live in peace again. So she knew him before she did meet him.

Umm she knew his name because her brothers told her who he was. Otherwise she wouldn't have known who Harry was. I don't have my copy of SS/PS but it was clear that the twins were the ones who said who Harry was. They were the ones who recognized Harry and told the rest about it. Not Ginny.

I have to say that Mrs. Weasley sure has a sinister and dark way of putting to sleep her children. I hardly think that 'The raise and fall of the dark arts' ( I think that was the book that Hermione mention) makes a good bedtime story for a child. Really wicked woman! She probably terrified them to death on their beds. I think it's more of someone who did something amazing more than a children's bedtime story. Otherwise by now 5 books into the series we would have heard of other people. But we haven't.

Its in OotP I think so but well it don't do much if she didn't knew or? I mean its said that dementors did attack him in PoA and I guess Ron might have to explain what did happen so I guess she knew. If not it don't change a thing.

I'm missing were it is. Do you have a page?

I didn't say Neville did tell her to go on. I mean more his action to ask her to the ball, that say that he was interested in her as girl might have encourage her to look on the ball around. She was at least with someone else together who didn't ignore her.

But Neville asked Hermione first. Ginny was his last resort. Hermione was Neville's first option, not Ginny.

If someone dies who you had always around you than you miss even the bad things.

:nc:

Gily Ann

That's a long time to have to grow - and apparently they're still not ready 5 years later. Indulge me:

Give me some idea (prediction/speculation/whatever) as to what might be the catalyst that will indicate to them that they are ready. Or what threshold of 'spiritual closeness' they must reach (and how that threshold will be defined), that will indicate to them that they are ready.

First of all, excellent topic sone.

Secondly, daveydee, I'd say that "catalyst" is already forming. And it was instigated by Sirius' death creating the state of shock and shortened emotional yet enhanced range that we are so familiar with that resides in Harry. How will Sirius' death be somewhat be pacified within Harry? It's also not only Sirius' death but a number of scenarios that hit harry so recently such as the prophecy, bellatrix, and new revalations that are literally ripping him apart. Harry can only take so much, eventually it's going to get him into an extreme mode. How can this be reconciled?

Naturally, I fully expect Lupin to be a major factor in bringing back Harry to full capability. However, as many formidible and fitting aspects he carries that can and will come to Harry's rescue....he doesn't have it all. But somebody else does. Throughout the five books in Harry's most dire situations there's practically always been one person to guide him, console him, and explain things when he needs it most. Why can't it be this person again? There is no reason why it can't be. Hermione, as she has done for him constantly, will once again arise to help pull Harry out of this reverie.

As Sone pointed out, Harry and Hermione, through their many experiences have developed almost all the facets needed to form a platonic/or romantic relationship have evolved. Yet, they are not set into action seeing as they drastically need something to fit all of them together so they can take shape. I believe this rehibiliation period for Harry with Hermione at his side holds the key to such aspirations. The biggest part that is missing in the forming of an Harry/Hermione relationship is acknowledgement....primarily on Harry's side. It has been generally been agreed that Hermione has surfaced romantic feelings for Harry and that most of the key elements as well as indescript ones needed to form that relationship are there....Hermione seems ready but Harry is not, and indeed is the farthest away he's ever been in these post-sirius days. However, in such a harsh and cold point in his life, he is quite vulnerable and subject to great changes....This is the most dismal point in his life yet, and if Hermione manages to play a large part in harmonizing his distraught mind....it leaves Harry no choice but to notice her efforts. Upon coming out of such a monotone as he is in now, one experiences a revelation of realization, which will undoubtably have Hermione's efforts included. Upon knowing this, it would then lead him to finally accept and acknowledge what she's done for him all these years. All of these newly aquired facts will have a prominent and substancial after-affect of feelings such as guilt, shame, ignorance, admiration, redemption, and perhaps....romance.

Fairydust



I’m afraid that you’ll have to tell me how they are different for me to disagree. Or how you see them as different. I don’t like to disagree just to disagree.

Okay, here it is, I see them as different because giving up can mean that you still have feelings for someone only you just "gave up" because you felt that those feelings would never be reciprocated. Being over, in my humble opinion, means that you're over. You have no feelings whatsoever left for the person that you once felt so strongly for. Disagree, don't disagree, I assumed you'd disagree. If I offended you or whatever then sorry.



Loves and crushes come and go in the 4 years that you are talking about though. Ginny was the ages of 10-13. Some people fall in and out of love 2 or 3 times a week in that age group. And you said it perfectly. We don’t have any clues to suggest anything other than the fact that Ginny is over Harry and has moved on with her life.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Please elaborate.



Here I am going to disagree. What in PoA would lead you to believe that Ginny’s love progressed from a bubble gum girl crush to this whole deep level?

Maybe the fact that Harry saved her life a month ago when she saw him again. It's even noted in the books about her being "taken" with him probably because he had saved her life. I think the crush grew to something more. But this is indeed just my humble opinion and you're welcome to disagree if you'd like.



That she is over Harry and has moved on with her life.

Again, I'm going to say that "over" and "gave up" are different.



All of this happens pre Yule Ball. At the Yule Ball is where she meets Michael.

I wonder what became of Neville. Did they ditch each other? Did he take up with a girl from a different house? What happened with their date?



But who did Michael run off to comfort? Cho. So Ginny knew that Harry was available again. And she still did not turn on the charm as you call it. She considers Dean more worthy of the charm. But what you have to look at is that Ginny knew that Harry and Cho was done at this point, and as you pointed out she used this charm on Michael. So then its on to Dean, strengthening the case that Ginny is really over Harry.

I said in a previous post that Ginny probably wouldn't demean herself by "putting on the charm" as some would say. She's a strong person and knows that Harry's a strong person, too. She did ask him what was wrong. She did wonder if it was Cho. He told her that it wasn't Cho he wanted to talk about. She probably sensed that he probably wasn't hurting that much over breaking up with Cho and therefore felt no need to "charm" or comfort him. The only thing he needed comforting on was the death of Sirius and nobody could help him.

thesnitch and you



Da Bears eh? You have my sincerest condolences.

Cheers!

Football? Dude it's rugby that's awesome!

Yup... :p


GilyAnn, love your sig, too. :p

Thanks for addressing my questions, Ecthelion. Let's take a look at it.


Naturally, I fully expect Lupin to be a major factor in bringing back Harry to full capability. However, as many formidible and fitting aspects he carries that can and will come to Harry's rescue....he doesn't have it all. But somebody else does. Throughout the five books in Harry's most dire situations there's practically always been one person to guide him, console him, and explain things when he needs it most. Why can't it be this person again? There is no reason why it can't be. Hermione, as she has done for him constantly, will once again arise to help pull Harry out of this reverie.
The first obvious challenge to that is that Hermione has not been 'the one' person to assist him in his challenges hitherto. She has been one of a number of people to have given him that assistance, not least of which has, of course been Ron. The second gaping hole in your idea, Ecthelion, is this:

Even if we accept that Hermione has been 'the one person' on whom he has been able to rely these past five years, why must it follow that, for him to continue to rely on her, they have to become a couple? Surely if she is that determined to provide him with the support she has already given him, she would do so regardless.

As Sone pointed out, Harry and Hermione, through their many experiences have developed almost all the facets needed to form a platonic/or romantic relationship have evolved. Yet, they are not set into action seeing as they drastically need something to fit all of them together so they can take shape. I believe this rehibiliation period for Harry with Hermione at his side holds the key to such aspirations. The biggest part that is missing in the forming of an Harry/Hermione relationship is acknowledgement....primarily on Harry's side.I think that this is an attempt to address the dilemma I presented above. But it does not do that satisfactorily, as it suggests that hitherto, there has been something missing that has prevented Harry from successfully dealing with the challenges which he has thus far had to face. And of course, as we know, Harry has triumphed on each occasion by his own virtues and the network of support that he has received.

It has been generally been agreed that Hermione has surfaced romantic feelings for Harry and that most of the key elements as well has indescript elements needed to form that relationship are there....Hermione seems ready but Harry is not, and indeed is the farthest away he's ever been in these post-sirius days.
Generally agreed by whom? H/Hr's maybe.

However, in such a harsh and cold point in his life, he is quite vulnerable and subject to great changes....This is the most dismal point in his life yet, and if Hermione manages to play a large part in harmonizing his distraught mind....it leaves Harry no choice but to notice her efforts.
I'll agree that he is indeed in the pits at the moment; Sirius dead; all hope of any further contact with him beyond the grave dashed. Does he choose, in this nadir of despair to seek solace in the company of Hermione? No. Instead he chooses to wander the corridors of Hogwarts alone.

Upon coming out of such a monotone as he is in now, one experiences a revelation of realization, which will undoubtably have Hermione's efforts included. Upon knowing this, it would then lead him to finally accept and acknowledge what she's done for him all these years. All of these newly aquired facts will have a prominent and substancial after-affect of feelings such as guilt, shame, ignorance, admiration, redemption, and perhaps....romance.
So you're saying that Hermione is just waiting on tenterhooks for him to fall for her as a measure of gratitude?

Thanks for addressing my questions, Ecthelion. Let's take a look at it.

And likewise :)

First and foremost, this is just a theory, it's going to have its holes. As a matter of fact this is the first time it has ever been totally put together. Regardless....

The first obvious challenge to that is that Hermione has not been 'the one' person to assist him in his challenges hitherto. She has been one of a number of people to have given him that assistance, not least of which has, of course been Ron. The second gaping hole in your idea, Ecthelion, is this:

Even if we accept that Hermione has been 'the one person' on whom he has been able to rely these past five years, why must it follow that, for him to continue to rely on her, they have to become a couple? Surely if she is that determined to provide him with the support she has already given him, she would do so regardless.

First reply, understood. I was by no means saying she was the "only one" but was just saying she's been there the most out of anyone. So it'd be logical to think that once again she'd come to his rescue.

With the Second reply, I don't see this as a gaping whole, just another scenario. When stating this theory of mine, I wasn't intending on impressing that it's going to happen. It was more or less that, if at anytime in the future, I see this particular instance as the most probable for a forming of a relationship. Which brings me up to your question: Do the have to become a couple? Of course not. They have functioned well enough without being a couple and can no doubt continue doing so. However, becoming a couple may enhance their already inextricable connection in a way that no other type of relationship can offer...


I'll agree that he is indeed in the pits at the moment; Sirius dead; all hope of any further contact with him beyond the grave dashed. Does he choose, in this nadir of despair to seek solace in the company of Hermione? No. Instead he chooses to wander the corridors of Hogwarts alone.

That's true, Harry has been refining and has recently practiced this rather annoying habit of secluding himself when he needs interaction the most. Then again, it's a natural action to do in his situation(s). Harry is a prideful, compassionate, and complex person. All of these particular strong aspects of his character are playing a major role when he secludes himself. In one, almost ugly aspect, Harry's pride dislodges his true want of reconciliation. Secondly, his statement to Phineas Nigellus about running away to free others is a LARGE portion of why he does most of the things we question so much. In this "noble" state, he is capable of doing anything for other people's safety. Hermione knows he's not going to get out of these types of moods easily because of her knowledge of most of these characteristics of his. Which is why she went up to his room during the Christmas vacation in the first place. This theory is actually quite reminescent of the "possessing" incident except on a much larger scale....therefore yielding larger consequences.

Whether it works out to where Harry/Hermione end up together or not, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

So you're saying that Hermione is just waiting on tenterhooks for him to fall for her as a measure of gratitude?

Well, I think that considering you don't even believe that Hermione harbours romantic feelings for Harry, any explanation I make is going to be immediately displaced :) But I will say that it isn't on such a emphasized and drastic way such as that.

That's a long time to have to grow - and apparently they're still not ready 5 years later.

Love is bit more complex than friendship or bravery. Furthermore, if Harry and Hermione had been ready five years ago (especially Harry), then this series would be over before it started.

Give me some idea (prediction/speculation/whatever) as to what might be the catalyst that will indicate to them that they are ready. Or what threshold of 'spiritual closeness' they must reach (and how that threshold will be defined), that will indicate to them that they are ready.

Not ground breaking but....well for one, Harry can start by trying to find out what is behind that room.

Hey everybody, don't u think ur taking this love business all to seriously?????? I mean u are literally writing essays which I wouldn't even bother writing that long for school work. :S Do u guyz not have anything better to do. I mean I don't mean to offend u or anything. But :S

As I said before, I think it totally possible that Harry's feelings towards Hermione and Ginny are feeling of friendship. If your friend was in danger and looked kinda dead, wouldn't you be really worried and hoping that they aren't dead not matter what sex? I think u would. So, I just don't think that that is a good proof for why Harry should end up with either of them. Neither is Harry defending Hermione when he argues with Cho. After all he's angry with Cho so he could say anything at the moment of anger and he's known Hermione for longer. Personally if I had a crush on someone and I also had a close friend of the opposite sex that I've known for a longer time, I'd be more faithful to the friend not the crush!

Hey we should find spouses for Fred and George too, but there aren't many older girls for them. Maybe Angelina for one of them?

hi i'm new and i support h/hr!

Fairydust,i think what Hawk92 said meant that at such a young age one my not like the same person five years later

To HMS Harmony members:
If you posted any really good essays in the FOURTH love thread could you PM me please.

reverie-spell, I don't know what you're getting at. and :welcome: to the thread

harryandchopotter, the people here debate. if people write long essays or whatnot it's their perogative to do so. If people have time to debate and get really into the discussion then that's their thing. I'm sure you didn't mean to offend anyone and I for one am not offended, but others may be. Basically it seems in your post that you're saying that we're HP losers that have too much time on our hands and no lives whatsoever. that is indeed my interpretation of your post.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Please elaborate.

What Hawk 92 means is that you at the age of 11-13 you don't love someone for always and forever. Its rather that you love Ben on monday and Peter on Wednesday. Just like that your feelings changing like the wether. To this comes later If you are 14 or 15 starts to think How a fool you was to feel like that?
See I know so many womans today who were die-hard boygroups fans and today they turn around and ask what did they take that they were like that

Again, I'm going to say that "over" and "gave up" are different.

You know this story about that a guy did tell another one a story and as it was told to the last guy it was suddenly a different story?
This information we have from Hermione and it seems she put it into nice words. We don't know it from Ginny personaly! This is a problem.

What Hawk 92 means is that you at the age of 11-13 you don't love someone for always and forever. Its rather that you love Ben on monday and Peter on Wednesday. Just like that your feelings changing like the wether. To this comes later If you are 14 or 15 starts to think How a fool you was to feel like that?
See I know so many womans today who were die-hard boygroups fans and today they turn around and ask what did they take that they were like that

Okay, got ya. ;) You don't love someone forever. But I didn't think of her crush for Harry as just a little scgool girl crush. I mean, most crushes I'm sure last for a few weeks, a month more likely, but her crush lasted four years. I just want to know why there'd be a crush for four years just to have it thrown away? It just doesn't make sense. And I'm sorry if I'm one of the few that feel this way but it just doesn't make sense.

As for the boy band thing, well I'm sure many girls will feel stupid for being "in love" with the members because there was no real basis for them liking the members of the group. They were boys, they were in a band, they were, some people would say that boy band guys are cute but I'd disagree whole heartedly. Feel stupid for being in love with a celebrity because there is no way in heck that you'd ever get the celebrity.

Ginny had a basis for being "in love" with Harry. He saved her life. She knew him for the most part. She's at least spoken to him. Unlike the boy band crush phenomena, Ginny actualkly had a real basis for liking him.


You know this story about that a guy did tell another one a story and as it was told to the last guy it was suddenly a different story?
This information we have from Hermione and it seems she put it into nice words. We don't know it from Ginny personaly! This is a problem.

Yes it is a problem. That's why I'm going on the idea that Ginny "gave up" but is not "over".

Yup... :p

Yes, Harryandchopotter, we do take these things seriously. We are people, just like you, who DO have lives. We just enjoy debating and discussing possible relationships to come in the next two books. The essays we type are just us showing our side of our theories. I think the real statement here is YOU don't take HP seriously. And that's fine if you don't dude, nobody cares if you do, but WE do. Anyway, on to the main topic, I think if Harry talks out his feelings to anyone about Sirius, it might be Hermione who he says this to first. The two are really close, and as Book 5 has shown us, they've come even closer. :)

What Hawk 92 means is that you at the age of 11-13 you don't love someone for always and forever. Its rather that you love Ben on monday and Peter on Wednesday. Just like that your feelings changing like the wether. To this comes later If you are 14 or 15 starts to think How a fool you was to feel like that?
Oh come on FP are you suggesting that when you are 14 or 15, or for that matter even 16 or 17 that it's really that much different; that you start looking for somebody to spend the rest of your life with? Really, those are the very years during which you 'play the field' and experiment. What you're describing comes in 99.9% of cases later, much later. 20+ at least.

Not ground breaking but....well for one, Harry can start by trying to find out what is behind that room.
Care to elaborate on that sone. Or is this the one where Harry and his lover (not stated that it must be Hermione) join hands and mysteriously cause that door to open (not stated at all that this is the means to actually open the door).

EDIT:

harryandchopotter
Hey everybody, don't u think ur taking this love business all to seriously?????? I mean u are literally writing essays which I wouldn't even bother writing that long for school work. :S Do u guyz not have anything better to do. I mean I don't mean to offend u or anything. But :S
Given that nobody here is going to answer the bolded parts of your comment in the affirmative, don't you think that it seems a rather pointless excercise asking the questions. Your time might better be spent on your schoolwork improving your essay writing skills, or dare I say ur vocabulary. That is, of course, assuming that you have nothing better to do. Now that might be 'kewl'.

Hey everybody, don't u think ur taking this love business all to seriously?????? I mean u are literally writing essays which I wouldn't even bother writing that long for school work. :S Do u guyz not have anything better to do. I mean I don't mean to offend u or anything. But :S

To answer your first question, some do. For your second statement, I can't speak for anyone else but I have always been great at writing. At least that is what my teachers always told me. :) Easiest thing in the world. Any writings, conclusions or theories I have on this board is nothing compared to what I used to write (and still do on occasion). For your third statement, do I have anything better to do? Not at the moment. I don't really have alot of worries like money or school. But I have my hobbies. This is one of them. However, when I do have anything better to do and then do that often then those people ask me if I have anything better to do. *Sigh* For your last statement, no offense taken. People are going to think what people are going to think.

Ginny had a basis for being "in love" with Harry. He saved her life. She knew him for the most part. She's at least spoken to him. Unlike the boy band crush phenomena, Ginny actualkly had a real basis for liking him.

Right he saved her life and I do think thats why the "feeling" last so long. She knew Harry just barely and thats another problem. All what she knew till PoA was a strong hero but PoA did change this view very hard, very drastic. There it started to fade away her feelings and in GoF she starts to move on. We see she speaks to Harry more as before but still blushing. Possibile she had still hope but as she heard him about Cho she did gave up. See there it dos fit. There if I interpret it like that it does make sense. To say Ginny did mover on or try to solve this feelings since PoA but did in GoF still hope there might be a tiny chance but this wasn't there so she gave up on him. This implied "Its over"
Because after two years trying to solve such feelings Ginny is over it. See if you needed such a hard way to get he isn't interest in you than I promise you that you just don't wanna fall back and I doubt she willl.


Now another thought abour Ron so called obvious feelings for Hermione. Isn't it amazing that nobody, really nobody seems to see it? I mean he has two great prats off brothers who would just to love teasing him about Hermione but we don't hear a thing. Or Ginny don't say a word to Harry. Harry don't say anything and he is day and night with them. Any other guy just don't see it.
Now why? Why if its so obvious that they yell at each other at the Yule Ball or Hermione kiss Ron on the cheek. But there is nothing.

By Harry and Hermione was is just the opposite. Everybody seems to mention it. If its Krum, Cho or Mrs Weasley who knew them. Why didn't she wonder isn't it Ron? No again no. Now you say its because of Rita and you right but they all believe it without to wonder that it should be R/Hr...

Oh come on FP are you suggesting that when you are 14 or 15, or for that matter even 16 or 17 that it's really that much different; that you start looking for somebody to spend the rest of your life with? Really, those are the very years during which you 'play the field' and experiment. What you're describing comes in 99.9% of cases later, much later. 20+ at least.

It is that much different. I can remember very well that at this age the most had they first real boyfriend, I mean real boyfriend that say it was called "first real love" at this time. Some of them did even engagement. There you feel it for the very first time for real. Around 13-15 you play around, you starts to get used to this but with 16-17 you falls really, even if its holds only 1 or two years its still there that you falls for the first time. Thats the exact time of Harry last two years at Hogwarts.

There is it different as to my school because there you are seperated to your home. Hogwarts is now this home and this kids around you are more as just your friends. Hermione and Ron are the best friends of Harry so this gos one step deeper as everything else at Hogwarts.
Now let say Harry and Hermione come together it will be a much deeper ship as the one between Harry and Cho. The possibile its last longer as two years is higher as on a normal High school to this comes both did go through a lot this again makes them more martrured as other guys at Hogwarts.

Thats probably the reason why so many couples like the Weasleys, the Potters knew eachother since hogwarts, better hogwarts was the reason why they knew each other that long and fell in to love.

I view it quite differently. Friendship is the key word but so is the bravery and the unspoken word (which I think is love) and in that order. Friendship, the first thing Hermione sees in Harry, then bravery, then love. Why is it unspoken then? Because that is not where they are....yet. They are not ready for that, but they will be. It has been growing ever since then.

But couldn't it just be that they are friends? I mean, do you think that love was really on Hermione's mind when she was talking to Harry before he nearly got himself killed?

The problem with Ron is that, we do not get past that the friendship part. Even when he likes Hermione, he is more content to sit at the sidelines and complain about what Hermione is doing with any other guy rather than be that any other guy himself. He lacks the courage, he is not in love with Hermione though he clearly loves Hermione.

Hey, he did get her perfume. That's a pretty romantic gift. If he doesn't have feelings for her that are more than platonic then why didn't he go with his usual gift of candy or a book or dungbombs or whatnot?

You're right though. I think that Ron does lack courage. That was what made him such a bad quidditch player in the beginning. But after he won the cup his confidence was boosted. We might see more of his courageous side in the next book and we'll probably see him make a play for Hermione.



Now I know this has been discussed many times. And I'm sure many will argue this statement, question more like, that I'm going to make. I'm ready for the consequences. Here it is: Where is the romantic tension between Harry and Hermione. You've got many sources saying that the tension lies with Ron and Hermione. Where's the tension for Harry and Hermione? Where's the stuff that makes their relationship zing? I mean, I'm assuming that many would argue that you don't need tension in a relationship, but in my humble opnion, without it, a relationship would be too perfect and too boring.

I'm ready for the backlash. ;)

EDIT: Flying Pheonix, I'm saying that Ginny's liking for Harry intensified over PoA and GoF up until the Unexpected Task chapter. When that chapter happened, Ginny probably had to come to grips with Harry liking another girl, thus she gave up on him.

If everyone says that H/Hr are so obvious then that must be a red herring.

Hope this makes sense. If not :shrug: I'm not going to change it... :elaugh:

It is that much different. I can remember very well that at this age the most had they first real boyfriend, I mean real boyfriend that say it was called "first real love" at this time. Some of them did even engagement. There you feel it for the very first time for real. Around 13-15 you play around, you starts to get used to this but with 16-17 you falls really, even if its holds only 1 or two years its still there that you falls for the first time. Thats the exact time of Harry last two years at Hogwarts.
The first obvious thing that leaps out of that statement, therefore, is the recognition that even at 16 or 17 a relationship will generally sustain for only 1 or 2 years. That goes entirely against the grain of one of the central planks of the H/Hr ship - that Harry and Hermione are destined for a lifelong union. I'm pleased that you have recognised that ,FP, because all of a sudden it shows that a potential relationship between H/Hr can be just as transient and short lived as a potential relationship between R/Hr. Something I have been saying for a long time.

Now I know this has been discussed many times. And I'm sure many will argue this statement, question more like, that I'm going to make. I'm ready for the consequences. Here it is: Where is the romantic tension between Harry and Hermione. You've got many sources saying that the tension lies with Ron and Hermione. Where's the tension for Harry and Hermione? Where's the stuff that makes their relationship zing? I mean, I'm assuming that many would argue that you don't need tension in a relationship, but in my humble opnion, without it, a relationship would be too perfect and too boring.


EXACTLY :clap: :clap: :clap:
i love you! i could never get it out :banghead: i never knew exactly what to say lol

The first obvious thing that leaps out of that statement, therefore, is the recognition that even at 16 or 17 a relationship will generally sustain for only 1 or 2 years. That goes entirely against the grain of one of the central planks of the H/Hr ship - that Harry and Hermione are destined for a lifelong union. I'm pleased that you have recognised that ,FP, because all of a sudden it shows that a potential relationship between H/Hr can be just as transient and short lived as a potential relationship between R/Hr. Something I have been saying for a long time

It is. I never or I never tried to deny it. I mean H/Hr can like R/Hr last only weeks or only two years. By the way if I believe in Hermiones dead at the end of book7 isn't that a live long? Somehow.

Oh well but I mean for me it don't need last till Harry is 150 and has 20 kids...
Just something what give him that what he seeks since he did find his "home" by the Dursleys. Thats all.

It is that much different. I can remember very well that at this age the most had they first real boyfriend, I mean real boyfriend that say it was called "first real love" at this time. Some of them did even engagement. There you feel it for the very first time for real. Around 13-15 you play around, you starts to get used to this but with 16-17 you falls really, even if its holds only 1 or two years its still there that you falls for the first time. Thats the exact time of Harry last two years at Hogwarts.

So is this a contradiction? I mean, I've heard it said that H/Hr are soulmates or whatnot and you're saying that they could very well just last two or three years.

If I were to go to Dawson's Creek and make a comparison between that and HP then it would be quite favourable to the R/Hr ship.

Dawson(Harry) in love with Joey(Hermione) who also is admired by Pacey(Ron). Harry and Joey date. They have their on and off again thing and are indeed recognised as soul mates; however, you've got Pacey, who's in love with Joey. They in turn date, he's not her soulmate but he is indeed her true love. In the end Joey ends up with Pacey.

Can this be said true for Harry, Hermione, and Ron?

Oh man I'm getting too into the WB drama that's going on. ;)


Thanks, Freckled Apples. Take a big :clap: for yourself, too.

But couldn't it just be that they are friends? I mean, do you think that love was really on Hermione's mind when she was talking to Harry before he nearly got himself killed?


Of course, but that does not mean that is what it is. Like I said, I view it differently. To answer your second question, yes. Or at least the idea of it.


Hey, he did get her perfume. That's a pretty romantic gift. If he doesn't have feelings for her that are more than platonic then why didn't he go with his usual gift of candy or a book or dungbombs or whatnot?


I did not say his feelings were not more than friendly, I said he was not in love with her. I think he has somewhat of a crush on her but that's about it. So he gave her perfume. Romantic, yes. But my question is, who was he getting it for? Hermione or what he thinks of Hermione? His confidence boosted only in Quidditch, not in Hermione. Also it does not seem his confidence is that stable to me either. I'm starting to wonder whether Ron really likes Hermione at all.


Where is the romantic tension between Harry and Hermione. You've got many sources saying that the tension lies with Ron and Hermione. Where's the tension for Harry and Hermione? Where's the stuff that makes their relationship zing? I mean, I'm assuming that many would argue that you don't need tension in a relationship, but in my humble opnion, without it, a relationship would be too perfect and too boring.


You got many sources saying that there is tension between Ron and Hermione which I do not disagree with. Their relationship usually involves barely controlled hostility. It does not put the "zing" their relationship, it puts the "strained" in it. I never thought of Harry and Hermione as having romantic tension. I've always thought of it as just a relationship growing, naturally without either one of them really recognizing it for what it is until it slaps them across the face. Maybe it slapped Hermione in OOTP.

Uh whats dawsons creek?

Never watched it FreckledApples. Not a single episode. I honestly could not even tell you the names of the characters. So if you do not mind, can you tell me what you are talking about?

You got many sources saying that there is tension between Ron and Hermione which I do not disagree with. Their relationship usually involves barely controlled hostility. It does not put the "zing" their relationship, it puts the "strained" in it.

I don't hate to do this. I'm going to disagree. :D

Hostility defined by Webster: An act of an open enemy; a hostile deed; especially in the plural, acts of warfare; attacks of an enemy. Or here's another definition: State of being hostile; public or private enemy; unfriendliness; animosity. and just one more, synonyms: Animosity; enmity; opposition; violence; aggression; contention; warfare.

By saying that they barely contain their "hostility" would be saying that they barely contain their hatred for one another. That's not true. They argue and it can be heated most of the time but they do get on very nicely. They wouldn't be such good friends if they were indeed "barely containing their hostility"

I think that their arguments here and there are what give the "zing" to their relationship When they don't argue( banter more like ;)), they're very good together. Their personalities mesh in my humble opinion.


I never thought of Harry and Hermione as having romantic tension. I've always thought of it as just a relationship growing, naturally without either one of them really recognizing it for what it is until it slaps them across the face. Maybe it slapped Hermione in OOTP

I see that for Harry and Ginny.

Fairydust The first obvious thing that leaps out of that statement, therefore, is the recognition that even at 16 or 17 a relationship will generally sustain for only 1 or 2 years. That goes entirely against the grain of one of the central planks of the H/Hr ship - that Harry and Hermione are destined for a lifelong union. I'm pleased that you have recognized that ,FP, because all of a sudden it shows that a potential relationship between H/Hr can be just as transient and short lived as a potential relationship between R/Hr. Something I have been saying for a long time.



again the relationship/ years thing, again!! :banghead:oh my. this story started out with 11 year old KIDS. children, pequeñines... that don't care about love thingies and that had a lot of more important things to mind like surviving for one. The story it's going to last 7 years... in which we want to know the adventures and destiny of our hero, Harry. Love is a very important part of this story, Harry lived because of love and a lot of us believe he will survive and defeat Voldemort because of love. Now most of us want to know if by the end of this series Harry found love, Jk has said she will write about that, so that means by the end of the series, when Harry is 17 we will know if Harry found a lifetime partner. Who ever it is, it's going to be forever, we can't assume it's going to last 1 or 2 years! it's going to be the end of series, the final big knot that will tie our hero's life!

why do you believe Hermione will be paired up with someone in next book and then with another one in the next book? it's taken JK more than 5 books to pair someone up, and you think all that will happen in just 2 books... I don't get it really:huh:



If I were to go to Dawson's Creek and make a comparison between that and HP then it would be quite favorable to the R/Hr ship.



???? :wow:you did not just compared Harry Potter (great piece of very well written literature, and children's book BTW) with Dawson's Creek!!! (a series revolving around teen love, hormones and their growing into adulthood, deceptions, cheatings etc etc.) Maybe we should keep our theories to the Harry Potter books? comparisons like that are just to wild, I think, no offense. :blush:



Dawson(Harry) in love with Joey(Hermione) who also is admired by Pacey(Ron). Harry and Joey date. They have their on and off again thing and are indeed recognized as soul mates; however, you've got Pacey, who's in love with Joey. They in turn date, he's not her soul mate but he is indeed her true love. In the end Joey ends up with Pacey.



all that took how many years of Wednesday nights? we just have 2 more books!!! 2 people!!! :sigh:



sone Their relationship usually involves barely controlled hostility. It does not put the "zing" their relationship, it puts the "strained" in it. I've always thought of it as just a relationship growing, naturally without either one of them really recognizing it for what it is until it slaps them across the face. Maybe it slapped Hermione in OOTP.

just wanted to agree with sone here.:)

FairyDust

again the relationship/ years thing, again!! :banghead:oh my. this story started out with 11 year old KIDS. children, pequeñines... that don't care about love thingies and that had a lot of more important things to mind like surviving for one. The story it's going to last 7 years... in which we want to know the adventures and destiny of our hero, Harry. Love is a very important part of this story, Harry lived because of love and a lot of us believe he will survive and defeat Voldemort because of love. Now most of us want to know if by the end of this series Harry found love, Jk has said she will write about that, so that means by the end of the series, when Harry is 17 we will know if Harry found a lifetime partner. Who ever it is, it's going to be forever, we can't assume it's going to last 1 or 2 years! it's going to be the end of series, the final big knot that will tie our hero's life!

I don't know why you wrote that I said this quote when in fact I didn't. I didn't even bring up the age thing I just responded to it. I did not write this.

why do you believe Hermione will be paired up with someone in next book and then with another one in the next book? it's taken JK more than 5 books to pair someone up, and you think all that will happen in just 2 books... I don't get it really:huh:

I don't believe this. Where is it that I wrote I think she'll be with 2 or so different people in the next 2 books?

???? :wow:you did not just compared Harry Potter (great piece of very well written literature, and children's book BTW) with Dawson's Creek!!! (a series revolving around teen love, hormones and their growing into adulthood, deceptions, cheatings etc etc.) Maybe we should keep our theories to the Harry Potter books? comparisons like that are just to wild, I think, no offense. :blush:

I'm not going to compare the entire series to a WB drama. Are you kidding me? I'm just talking if there was a love triangle or whatnot. This is from a romance aspect I'm comparing HP and Dawson's creek.

FreckledApples, Dawson's Creek is a teen drama that used to play on the WB network. The show ended a few months ago. It's an American show and if you don't have either Canadian or American channels or some network that plays it then I guess you wouldn't know what it was.

By saying that they barely contain their "hostility" would be saying that they barely contain their hatred for one another. That's not true.


I agree. They do not hate each other, but they do hate their opposing opinions and that is where the tension comes from. Has anybody ever asked why?

I agree. They do not hate each other, but they do hate their opposing opinions and that is where the tension comes from. Has anybody ever asked why?

Nope, never asked why. And I do admit that there is tension with their arguing, but there's also romantic tension. At least, that's what I'm interpreting.

The romantic "tension" is coming from Ron. Always has.

My!! I made a huge mistake, I am sorry Fairydust, very, my first reply was made for Daveydee (http://www.cosforums.com/member.php?u=4771) not you, I'm sorry really. Please forgive me *sad face*

At some point while I was doing laundry today, it occured to me that many R/H shippers take the "unusual" perfume gift at a great sign that Ron is showing some kind of mushiness. Now do not take me wrong, because I I still see a R/H thing, but what if he did not pick that gift out at all? What if it was something that Harry suggested, or even his mom? I could see Mrs. Weasley noticing that her son has a female friend that seems to always be around; She picks out a perfume, presses the box into her sons hands, and says, "Here son, this would make a nice gift." It just seems that, as much as I would like to see the perfume as a great R/H sign, I believe that Ron's other behaviours do not point to an emotional maturity level that involves romantic gifts. Candy mabey... but not perfume. He is still at the run-around-with-friends and play sports stage.
Also, It seem to me that many of us older posters, myself included, are guilty of analyizing the kids in these books as if they had adult emotional development. It has been over 10 years since I was the 11-15 year old range, but I know that the furthest thing on my mind was developing a strong long-lasting relationship. I agree that the characters have faced many challenges that would widen their perspectives more than the average teen at that age, but I just dont think that any of them are really quite at that higher emotional stage for serious relationships, especially guys at that age. Now mabey 16 and 17 -- this is where I expect the rock to fall on a guys head and make him realize that there is more depth to a relationship.
I hope that all came out clear, because I was struggling to that thought into words I could type!

Well, I'm 15, and I'm not saying this generally, but for birthdays I usually get cards, candies,things like that. And I wouldn't interpret more feelings from a friend if he gave me perfume, I think it is a nice detail, but when I see R/Hr I think the clue is not the perfume, but the way they act around each other. Because I've seen people act like that, and sometimes I do act like that.

Now I know this has been discussed many times. And I'm sure many will argue this statement, question more like, that I'm going to make. I'm ready for the consequences. Here it is: Where is the romantic tension between Harry and Hermione. You've got many sources saying that the tension lies with Ron and Hermione. Where's the tension for Harry and Hermione? Where's the stuff that makes their relationship zing? I mean, I'm assuming that many would argue that you don't need tension in a relationship, but in my humble opnion, without it, a relationship would be too perfect and too boring.


The stuff that makes their relationship 'zing' doesn't necessary have to be seen by the viewer, and the word 'zing' or the way it is implied can have many interpretations because people view it differently. But the point is that you ask where is the tension for Harry and Hermione? Theres no point to ask that at the moment because the relationship (romantically) isn't acknowledged yet by Harry in the books. He has not realised consciously. Sometimes it seems like there are debates that assume that Harry/Hermione already have something going on between them on a romantic level when most just show most of these thoughts are beginning on a subconscious level.

Like you said, in your opinion you need tension in a relationship, while others are different like mine. Relationships don't necessarily IMO need to have tension, whats wrong with having a perfect relationship than one with tension? And perfect relationships aern't boring - might be boring to read - but it wouldn't be boring for the characters that are involved in the relationship. Would you rather be in a perfect relationship where partner get along great and still love each other? Or would you rather one where you constanly yell at each other over small silly things?

Then theres the word 'tension', this is open to different interpretations. JKR's quote stating there is tension she doesn't specific what kind of tension there is. Most will assume romantic tension due to what happened in GoF, but what if what JKR quotes to mislead people to thinking it as romantic tension when she herself could think of it as some other tension to mislead the audience? She has mislead us before in her quotes.

I'll agree that he is indeed in the pits at the moment; Sirius dead; all hope of any further contact with him beyond the grave dashed. Does he choose, in this nadir of despair to seek solace in the company of Hermione? No. Instead he chooses to wander the corridors of Hogwarts alone.

Yes. This is, in my opinion, a turning point. Harry has reached a fork in his path, and has chosen, what I like to call the path of darkness. He is slowly starting to forsake all the things that make him human

"Harry, suffering like this proves you are still a man! This pain is part of being human-"
"THEN - I - DON'T - WANT - TO - BE - HUMAN!"

It's true, he said this when he was very upset, but he is following through on it quite well. He is starting to feel uncomfortable in the presence of others after hearing the prophecy, even his friends. He spent a whole afternoon alone hiding behind that bush next to the lake just so he wouldn't have to interact with the 'normal' people, and also avoided the feast for that same reason. As an amusing side note, he ran into Luna while avoiding the feast, and most people wouldn't view her as 'normal.' And he connected to her, and they had a nice little moment there at the end. It even made him feel better about Sirius.

But this DoM incident, as they call it, has still left an ugly mark on Harry, and it changed him, perhaps permanently, and not for the better. It has made him start to care less, which was also something he shouted in that conversation with Dumbledore, "I don't care anymore-". Nice follow up with this when he hears Cho has a new boyfriend. He just shrugs it off. 'That was the old me, I really don't care about stuff like that anymore.'

I don't know what JKR wants to convey to her readers with this series. Perhaps just simply a good vs evil story, where the hero and the villain battle each other to the death, charging in with equal amounts of hatred from both sides. Each seeing the other as 'in the wrong' and self-righteousness abounds. And if she wants it to be true to life, this is probably the route she will take, for this same scene has happened in real life more times than there are stars in the sky, and all it brings is death and destruction. Hate begets hate begets hate begets hate begets hate...... Do you see a pattern?

But, thankfully, it seems she does not want to go that way, and instead of just showing us what we already know, is trying to show us, along with Harry, that there is another way. She has already begun this process, through Dumbledore:

"There is a room in the Department of Mysteries," interrupted Dumbledore, "that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."

I think we would all agree, that the force he is referring to either is love itself or is directly related to love.

Okay, well let's review. To start, Lily's love for Harry saves him as a child, destroying the larger part of Voldemort in the process. Then, Harry's newfound love for his friends and for his new home, Hogwarts, helps him to stop Quirrel from getting the stone, and thus reviving Voldemort. Then again, that same connection with his friends, Dumbledore in particular, and the school, allows him to save the school by killing the Basilisk and destroying Tom. Stopping Voldemort yet again. Then later on he saves Buckbeak and Sirius using the Patronus (which is powered by the memories he has with his friends) and Buckbeak himself, which is a symbol of love, and also with Hermione's help. And then you have him actually duelling with Voldemort and escaping with his life, his parent's helping him again here, and Cedric helping him before in the maze when he didn't have to. And now, as Dumbledore says, it saved him from possession even though it was what drove him there in the first place (and he wouldn't have even got there without his friends, who all have some love for him.) Love. It can be the greatest weakness, and yet, it can also be the greatest strength. I am detecting another pattern here, anybody else? No?

Dumbledore tells Harry that this love is what has kept him alive this long, and at least implies that he should not abandon it, for it is his greatest asset in the fight against Voldemort, (and hatred in general) but does he listen? No. He turns right around and takes the other path as I meantioned above. The path of darkness. The lonley one, where you've given up being human so you won't have to care anymore, and thus won't have to feel any of the pain that goes along with being human. And in the process giving up love, the very thing that has kept him alive for the past fifteen years (and also the thing that brought him into existence in the first place)

Okay, then, if Harry has already chosen the first path, then how are we going to convince him to walk all the way back to the fork and take the other one? Maybe he'll hit some dead ends and be forced too, I don't know. But I hope it doesn't come to that. If we're lucky his friends can talk him out of it.

Nice post Noddwyd.
It seems from the pattern you describe that friendship love will not be enough to defeat Voldemort - rather than escape him - and that romantic love will be required.
Yet the combined talents and love of James and Lily and Neville's parents were not enough to save them from Voldemort, after they had each 'escaped' him several times.
But I'm encouraged by the way in OOTP that Harry and Hermione manage to achieve things that Order members cannot and that Hermione's instincts towards Harry are more correct than Dumbledore's. It suggests that these two - both of them - are more special than those who have tackled Voldemort before.
I'm also encouraged by the fact that JKR said when the book was released that the situation in OOTP with people not believing Harry was the worst it gets for him in a general sense.
I feel certain that Hermione will be the key in some way to Harry vanquishing Voldemort. JKR could have lessened Hermione's impact in OOTP to make way someone else to become more influential. But instead she increased Hermione's role. Quite markedly, I think.

I wanted to bring up something that has been bugging me ever since I first finished OOTP.

What was most interesting about Harry's conversation with Luna is not so much he feels better (though just a bit) about Sirius, is that it shows Harry still has compassion. He still cares. As much as he does not want to be human, he is. Even in Dumbledore's office, he tried to get rid of that feeling. He couldn't. It is like the Matrix Reloaded. He already made the choice. He made it all the way back in his first year at Hogwarts. He is slowly finding out now why he made that choice. What is frustrating Harry is the same thing that frustrated Neo. He cannot see past the choices he does not understand. What is bugging me is that his friends are not helping him to understand together.

What Luna does, is help Harry to start understanding and she did that by talking to him. One of the things that has always aggravated me about Ron and Hermione is that their differences do not help Harry at all. In fact, they frustrate him and make him less willing to talk to either of them. Whether Harry knows it or not, he is starting to lean towards Hermione over Ron because Hermione talks to him. So many of you call it nagging, but mostly it is not. With that said, Harry sometimes needs to be nagged because it is Harry's nature is to keep his feelings deep inside himself and this is not how Harry can face the rest of his life let alone Voldemort. Whether Ron or Hermione know it or not, they are forcing him to choose between the pair of them because the pair of them put together are not that formiable. They'll beat each other before they can begin to help Harry beat his problems.

While Ron shows his loyalty, he also shows his fear. He is afraid of Harry's anger so he tries to avoid aggravating him in any way and will stay out of arguments or conversations until he is sure that Harry is not going to yell at him or just yell period. My personal opinion, Ron got far more than he bargained for when he had ****** off Harry in the GOF. Harry has got backbone and if you back him into a corner, he is going to fight not run. Hermione is afraid of it even more than Ron is, but Hermione also understands that if Harry does not talk about it, he is going to be worse off for it. This is why you always see Hermione being able to get to Harry before Ron can. Hermione wants Harry to talk about Sirius, Ron does not. Again their differences stop Harry from talking to them at all. With Luna, there is no one there to tell her to shut up. Well, well, well....not only does Harry not yell at her, he actually starts feeling better.

Ron does not understand that not talking to Harry will only make Harry the person that Ron fears. That is why he is often at a loss for words. He has avoided the problem, not prevented it. Hermione understood from the very beginning that not talking to Harry will only drive him away and it nearly did. Let me bring in a passage from Book 4:

"He will stay, Minerva, because he needs to understand," said Dumbledore curtly. "Understanding is the first step to acceptance, and only with acceptance can there be recovery. He needs to know who has put him through the ordeal he has suffered tonight, and why,"

Ron does not understand this. Dumbledore forgot this. Hermione does not get the chance to do this without Ron interrupting her. The first person he really talks to without interruption (Luna of course) happens to make him feel better because he starts to understand and to accept. Even just a little bit, it is a step forward. But what is sad to me is that Harry is starting to have to find alternate means of support because of his friends' differences are so huge and so common. This is why I do not or nor will I ever consider Ron and Hermione's constant bickering cute or playful banter because it is driving Harry away from them and they don't even notice, even after he makes it to clear to them that they're constant arguing is driving him mad. When they argue with one another (especially Harry and Hermione), it is like the other one is not even there. I do not at all consider that a good thing. Ron is growing seperate from Harry and Hermione, they are growing seperate from him, Harry is growing seperate from Ron and Hermione. Even Hermione is started to lose her patience with the boys for not listening. The whole thing is slowly killing them off. Dark and difficult times indeed.

sone I absolute agree with you. That is what happened on OotP. This bickering between Ron and Hermione push Harry away. This implied R/Hr would push Harry away. But he needs them now so it can't be R/Hr, can it? It's so often said H/Hr did destroy the trio but in reality it would rescue the trio.
How you said this differents between Ron and Hermione don't do a favor for Harry not at all. I mean everytime Hermione trys to get closer like speaking about Sirius (I could have hit Ron at this point) or speaking about Cho. Do you remember this scene as Hermione get that Harry is in a bad mood and ask if its about Cho? Who did rant about her friend? Ron...
There is it again that Harry did go away with this problem to someone else in that case Ginny. His own friends can't help him because they are to bussy to interrupt eachother. Its this so ioft nice called bickering what does this.
Thats even why I think JKR could really cut Harrys coming back into the quiditch team. Because if only Ron is in the team this say there is time where Harry has time to speak with Hermione alone and in that case it would help him.

About the tension between Harry and Hermione. There is tension. Not like between Ron and Hermione because there is it bickering and disagreeing. Thats for me not tension. Tension was between Harry and Hermione for example after Ron got the Prefect-badge. Its the little break between Hermione get Hedwig. There isn't much said but thats where the tension did lay. They weren't able to say the right words and thats tension.
Another scene as Harrys mood change after the hug from Hermione thats again tension because Hermione is again lost for words, as if this is even possible...
Thats why I call the scene as Harry told Hermione in GoF she wasn't suppose to help him again as tension because she is it again lost for words.
This we have even in PoA as Harry ask her if she go and report him is it again tension because she is lost for words.
If a character who is that talkative suddenly shut up than this is a sign for tension for me by R/Hr isn't it like that Hermione or Ron don't shut up they start to argue with each other.

But I'm encouraged by the way in OOTP that Harry and Hermione manage to achieve things that Order members cannot and that Hermione's instincts towards Harry are more correct than Dumbledore's. It suggests that these two - both of them - are more special than those who have tackled Voldemort before.

Why must the H/Hr ship persist in this idea that it's Harry and Hermione together who make all the great achievements. What exactly was it in OotP that Harry and Hermione managed to achieve together at the exclusion of the rest of Harry's support network? Or indeed in any of the other books for that matter?

A well thought out post up there, sone. I wouldn't necessarily disagree with much of what you have said. I'd be interested to read your views on how that situation may be resolved.

I suppose, Daveydee, you like to see Hermione as just another one of Harry's support crew?
Well it's interesting that JKR writes a scene early on in the book where it's explained just how diifficult members of the Order are finding it to publicise the fact that Voldemort is back to the wizarding world, and how crucial it is that wizards are alerted. Then later, thanks to Hermione and Harry, wizards are told Harry's story about Voldemort's return. Not to mention that Harry's view is something the ministry has been trying to suppress.
And why does Hermione come up with the idea for the DA which Harry leads? Because Umbridge has been allowed to gain power at Hogwarts, over and above Dumbledore and is enforcing the ministry's views on DADA teaching. And who actually comes up with a plan to put Umbridge out of action? Hermione. She has help from the centaurs of course. And who was it who knew Harry would do something rash if he wasn't kept informed over summer because of Dumbledore's order?
It's rather interesting that JKR goes to such lengths to emphasise Harry and Hermione's leadership and brilliance in OOTP. Was it really necessary to have Hermione come up with the sneak jinx or the idea for the DA coins, or mention that she could perform a NEWT level charm? Or for that matter was it really necessary to have Harry and Hermione go off on two adventures on their own rather than with Ron?
It helps to keep her a bit separate from the rest of the support crew doesn't it?

Ah yes, Turambar. Forgive me. I was forgetting that the alternative tiltle for this series of books is Hermione Granger and her Ventriloquist's Dummy named Harry.

Ah yes, Turambar. Forgive me. I was forgetting that the alternative tiltle for this series of books is Hermione Granger and her Ventriloquist's Dummy named Harry.

I don't know why? I mean we shouldn't start again like that, should we? We are now on thread 5 and only on page 23 don't do this, right?

I try to explain what its about what I think Turambar means. Its that Dumbledore did avoid Harry through the whole book and didn't explain things because he thought he is to young to understand.
There is it with Hermione different, maybe because she is one of his best friends, she tells him things even she don't like to do so. Like as it was about Sirius in the hand of Voldemort. She didn't avoid to tell him her reasons to think so or to do so but Dumbledore didn't this since the very first book. Thats say he don't has enough trust that Harry could handle this but Hermione seems to have it. She would have write a letter where everything what she know is explained but DD come her before and let her and Ron swear not to do though she might have said that Harry will go insane to be into the dark.
DD didn't listen or care. I mean its nearlly like as if DD think only he knows whats right and all other not. (I know he is older and wiser but still he is not Harrys best friends)
Hermione simple know Harry better as DD do and thats in such matter important. DD act out of expierince and be wise but Hermione act because she know Harry thats slightly different to each other.
This implied if Hermione knows Harry better as DD that she is probably special like Harry is it with his power and destiny. Hermione is there because of her knowledge (not only about books and magic, about Harry, too) than we have Ron he is there because of his support, bravery (that what Harry needs) than Harry who is there because he have to fight Voldemort.

Thats all and I hope I put it right.

I don't know why? I mean we shouldn't start again like that, should we? We are now on thread 5 and only on page 23 don't do this, right?
Don't do what? I'm not trying to do anything. Turambar's point was that Hermione has a great mind that works well on many occassions. What's the counter argument to that? There isn't one. She's the brains of the trio - and that's that. We've known that since Book 1.

But it's an irrelevant point. Of course she matters to Harry and is vitally important to him in these terms. Even if we accept that she is more important to him than Ron - what does it matter? Alright, alright - I'll say here for arguments sake that Hermione is 473 times more important to Harry than Ron is. Fine, wonderful. Ron isn't a contender for Harry's love. So what's the significance of the comparison. It's a futile point.

Don't do what? I'm not trying to do anything.

If you post things like that you can count there need only come right guys and start to get snarky and as fast as it gos this thread is closed. See this are things how it starts. That was in thread 4 just the same. Someone did post like saint!Hermione and bang the fight started. Even if you don't mean things in that way I tell you there are always people who get mad at such things.

You can disagree and say its not true but I prefer that you don't post things like Hermione Granger and her Ventriloquist's Dummy named Harry. only to show you disagree because thats very often the reason why other members start to post things they shouldn't do.

I hope I did clear it what I meaned

DD didn't listen or care. I mean its nearlly like as if DD think only he knows whats right and all other not. (I know he is older and wiser but still he is not Harrys best friends)

Dumbledore is not Harry's best friend, but he certainly has a close relationship with Harry and, if I remember correctly, he was the only one that Harry opened up to regarding the sorting hat wanting to put him in Slytherin House. This had been a crucial issue of angst for Harry during year 2. Dumbledore has the responsibility of leading the fight against Voldemort and ensuring Harry's safety and well being. He was wrong in withholding the prophecy from Harry, but his motivations were correct. He truly cares for Harry on a personal level.

[/INDENT]This implied if Hermione knows Harry better as DD that she is probably special like Harry is it with his power and destiny. Hermione is there because of her knowledge (not only about books and magic, about Harry, too) than we have Ron he is there because of his support, bravery (that what Harry needs) than Harry who is there because he have to fight Voldemort.
[INDENT]

FP: These books are about Harry, not Hermione. She is a sidekick, according to an interview with JKR. There is no disputing that she is a brilliant and talented witch, but you need to put her importance to the story in proper perspective. Harry is the one who has to save the wizarding world. Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard around. It has been foreshadowing since book 1 that Harry will be a great wizard. The fact that Hermione is intelligent is not an indicator that she and Harry will end up together romantically.

If you post things like that you can count there need only come right guys and start to get snarky and as fast as it gos this thread is closed. See this are things how it starts. That was in thread 4 just the same. Someone did post like saint!Hermione and bang the fight started. Even if you don't mean things in that way I tell you there are always people who get mad at such things.

You can disagree and say its not true but I prefer that you don't post things like Hermione Granger and her Ventriloquist's Dummy named Harry. only to show you disagree because thats very often the reason why other members start to post things they shouldn't do.

I hope I did clear it what I meaned
Right, I disagree with what Turambar and you are saying. I have given the reasons why I disagree in post #674. Do you have a counter argument for those points.

FP: These books are about Harry, not Hermione. She is a sidekick, according to an interview with JKR. There is no disputing that she is a brilliant and talented witch, but you need to put her importance to the story in proper perspective. Harry is the one who has to save the wizarding world. Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard around. It has been foreshadowing since book 1 that Harry will be a great wizard. The fact that Hermione is intelligent is not an indicator that she and Harry will end up together romantically

I know this very well its about Harry and not Hermione. I didn't say something different. I just said why Hermione is important and to know Harry in different areas and better as DD does is important if you add it to her other knowledge.
For once she knew Harry would feel left out and isolated but DD didn't really think much about it what this could mean and which result it can have.
And it had a bad result. If DD did from the beginning of OotP trust Harry or let him more in so he won't feel left out its possible Harry weren't angered like that, he didn't stop the lessons with Snape, he didn't go to the DoM thats all a result of DD not trusting in Harry.
Hermione so young as she is did know if Harry don't get the whole story he do something stupid and she didn't even know how right she was at this moment. Because DD did the wrong thing already in PS/SS.

EDIT: Ron isn't a contender for Harry's love. So what's the significance of the comparison.

Which comparison? Maybe you could make it a little bit more clear for me.

Which comparison? Maybe you could make it a little bit more clear for me.
The assertion that Hermione is more valuable to Harry than Ron is. As per my post above.

I think the point they're trying to make, is that Harry and Hermione, among their peers, are on a level all their own. They are both very talented and way above average for their age. Harry because of his talent, and all the dangerous situations he's been in, and he's not stupid either. Hermione because of her intelligence, and her tendency to memorize textbooks, and she's pretty talented herself, she was one of the few in the DA that could produce a patronus, apparently. And her friendship with Harry has definitely driven her to be more than she would have been without him, if for nothing else then simply because of all the out of the ordinary things he has to deal with. That's just among their peers, though. Dumbledore is definitely more powerful than both of them separately, I'm not disputing that. But together I'm not so sure. And apparently Harry also has this mysterious power that Dumbledore doesn't, otherwise Dumbledore would have already been able to destroy Voldemort, right? But of course, that doesn't mean anything romantically, I'm just saying they would make a good team in a battle, and as long as they're together, they'll be hard to take down. I admit, Harry's love interest doesn't have to be able to fight along side him as an equal in ability. I just thought that made a nice image.

But it's an irrelivant point. Of course she matters to Harry and is vitally important to him in these terms. Even if we accept that she is more important to him than Ron - what does it matter? Alright, alright - I'll say here for arguments sake that Hermione is 473 times more important to Harry than Ron is. Fine, wonderful. Ron isn't a contender for Harry's love. So what's the significance of the comparison. It's a futile point.

I disagree Hermione and Ron are at level. Hermione is Harry's sidekick this was confirmed by JKR. JKR is the one who gave her the title and she has written it that way in her books. Until JKR changes her mind and her writting. She will continue to be for *me* his sidekick. Hermione is brilliant but that doesn't place her above Ron they are on the same level. Ron understands a lot of things about Harry that still Hermione doesn't understand. That places her at the same level of Ron, not above him. On an emotional level Ron is much more closer to Harry than Hermione will ever be.

The thing is that many H/Hr shippers really pretend that Hermione is St. Hermione. Ron is basicly an idiot who's there to fill in H/Hr love and understanting. To give them a hard time with his stupidity and his remarks full on nonsense. Harry and Hermione are above any other person in the books. That simply ain't true.

Yes Hermione is smart. But she is also a character that has the biggest faults. One of the reasons why Harry and Hermione were at each other throats in this book was simply because Hermione has the bad habit to put her two cents into everyone's life. She tends to think that her opinion is above everyone else. Hermione needs to learn to respect not only other people's opinions but also that sometimes things are not the way you want them to be and that to change them you need patience and a bit of tactics. Something that Hermione lacks horribly of. Is not to impose your view on others. That's simply wrong. The fact that JKR has not dealt with this and she continue to throw fire into the mix says that she is planning have Hermione learns this in a sinister way.

JKR continues to dig in trouble for Hermione, it's not a wonder that she is surprised that people think that just because she is smart she is bound to be ok. The idea for the DA coins was an awfull one of Hermione. At the beginning I though it was brilliant but then I realize that it could mean trouble. This coin thing many feel that it can land her in a world of trouble. Specially since they let the coins hanging around. Can you imagine what would happend if Marietta's mother decides to report to the ministry or the Goblins a fake coin? That can land Hermione in the biggest trouble. The worst part is that no one can help her at this because she did that alone and didn't count with neither Ron or Harry. They have no idea how she did it, how to help her or what to do because they don't know how it was done.

Same goes for spew. Can anyone imagine the trouble she would have been in if Dobby hand't be covering for her? Setting the house elf's free would have made Umbridge have a field day of why Muggleborns need to be kept out of the magical world. Rita Seeker is another line that needs attention. Hermione thinks she can shut up Rita. She won't. She should have turned Rita to Dumbledore the minute she found her. Rita is going to retaliate and Hermione is going to be her target not Harry, not Ron. If any of the trouble of the spew or the coins explote Rita will have a field day with Hermione and nothing will be able to stop her.

Sometimes the smartest one is the one that ends up with the most trouble simply because they think they got it all cover.

Gily Ann

Disclaemer: I'm not bashing Hermione and I'm simply putting my two cents that Hermione is character that has flaws.

:clap: Great post, GilyAnn. A real breath of fresh air.

I particularly liked this part:

Ron understands a lot of things about Harry that still Hermione doesn't understand. That places her at the same level of Ron, not above him. On an emotional level Ron is much more closer to Harry than Hermione will ever be.
So true. As Hermione herself says: "Me! Books and cleverness! There are more important things....."

I agree, too, that Hermione is long overdue for a major reality check.

The thing is that many H/Hr shippers really pretend that Hermione is St. Hermione. Ron is basicly an idiot who's there to fill in H/Hr love and understanting. To give them a hard time with his stupidity and his remarks full on nonsense. Harry and Hermione are above any other person in the books. That simply ain't true.


Ron is not an idiot in anyway, but he simply is not on Harry and Hermione's level. Especially Hermione's. They are above the rest of the students in terms of talent and in terms of intelligence in many ways. Honestly, has there ever been one spell that Ron has ever gotten down before Harry and Hermione have? Has Ron ever done better than any of them in a single class? For me personally, I just give Hermione credit where credit is due. She has her faults as well but to me they're far more detrimental to Ron than they are to Harry.

Ron is not an idiot in anyway, but he simply is not on Harry and Hermione's level. Especially Hermione's. They are above the rest of the students in terms of talent and in terms of intelligence in many ways. Honestly, has there ever been one spell that Ron has ever gotten down before Harry and Hermione have? Has Ron ever done better than any of them in a single class? For me personally, I just give Hermione credit where credit is due. She has her faults as well but to me they're far more detrimental to Ron than they are to Harry.


I disagree. Harry is not at Hermione's intelligence level. Harry had quite the time to keep up with this studies just as Ron. He did worst than Ron in some ways and he had quite the trouble to keep up. Even with Ron having prefect duties and Harry having more time than in previous books he still didn't do that well. Potions is one class that Ron does well. Snape usually picks less on Ron than in Hermione or Harry. Simply because Snape can't stand Harry and He picks on Hermione for being a Know it all or however he calls her. Hermione may be intelligent but she is alone on that area. Neither Ron or Hermione shared that with her.

Gily Ann

Yes Hermione is smart. But she is also a character that has the biggest faults. One of the reasons why Harry and Hermione were at each other throats in this book was simply because Hermione has the bad habit to put her two cents into everyone's life. She tends to think that her opinion is above everyone else. Hermione needs to learn to respect not only other people's opinions but also that sometimes things are not the way you want them to be and that to change them you need patience and a bit of tactics. Something that Hermione lacks horribly of. Is not to impose your view on others. That's simply wrong. The fact that JKR has not dealt with this and she continue to throw fire into the mix says that she is planning have Hermione learns this in a sinister way.

If they ask her for her opinion than they should know she has an opinion and Hermione is in the books very often ask for her opinion. Or dos Harry sit there and think about his own opinion and Hermione just burst in say she interrupt his thoughts and say in a way my opinion is this and that and your opinion isn't worth to think about.
Isn't she asked in the books? Aren't they together guessing what is to do?
I suppose they are.

The idea for the DA coins was an awfull one of Hermione. At the beginning I though it was brilliant but then I realize that it could mean trouble. This coin thing many feel that it can land her in a world of trouble. Specially since they let the coins hanging around. Can you imagine what would happend if Marietta's mother decides to report to the ministry or the Goblins a fake coin? That can land Hermione in the biggest trouble. The worst part is that no one can help her at this because she did that alone and didn't count with neither Ron or Harry. They have no idea how she did it, how to help her or what to do because they don't know how it was done.

Thats far, really far. How could see Mariettas mother get this coins? I don't see anything wrong with it. But its even kinda stupid that nobody would get suspicious if at the same time so many Students are away and on one floor. Like as they did leave this room again they did leave always together. Now how smart is this from both Harry and Hermione that at the same time 20 students go through the floors and possible talk to each other.
Its up to Harry to say something not Hermione. He is the leader, He is the one who say "Good idea, bad idea!" and not Hermione.

If this isn't bashing than I can say that no H/Hr did bash Ron or Ginny because they just show the failures of this characters. I hope we can agree in this, aren't we?

Between I did say in the past that if someone would be expelled than is it Hermione because she do the most rule breaking things from the trio and I did even predict that after all the time she was right, or lucky, she will be once wrong and without luck. So I didn't say she is perfect its you who do understand it.
Like I do understand that Ginny is perfect if I read your post quiet naturelly I guess

EDIT: There are differents of intelligence. One from the brain the other from study. Hermione might have both but Harry has an intelligence from the brain. He can think complicate and understand things or figure out things.

Hello iv been away for a few days and have just quickly read through everyones posts and i must say that you have all done very well.
Gilyann...
I disagree Hermione and Ron are at level. Hermione is Harry's sidekick this was confirmed by JKR. JKR is the one who gave her the title and she has written it that way in her books. Until JKR changes her mind and her writting. She will continue to be for *me* his sidekick.
Yes i agree that Hermione is Harry's 'sidekick' but she's not just that she is also his friend and to some extent, although i suppose this can be argued, his guide, she gives him a lot of help that makes him see the light makes him understand. JK may have said that Hermione is Harry's sidekick but she's also said that she is a 'tool' used to get information to Harry much the same as Dumbledore.

The thing is that many H/Hr shippers really pretend that Hermione is St. Hermione. Ron is basicly an idiot who's there to fill in H/Hr love and understanting. To give them a hard time with his stupidity and his remarks full on nonsense. Harry and Hermione are above any other person in the books. That simply ain't true.
:lol: Yes i admit i really do think Ron is an idiot, but i'm very much like him myself so i don't dislike him in anyway. I do not however think Hermione is a saint and nor will you hear me say it, i also don't think thats Ron's purpose is to 'fill in H/Hr love and understanding.To give them a hard time with his stupidity and his remarks full on nonsense' I actually feel that Ron has no part what-so-ever in the relationship between H/Hr. Relationships with three people in it are never a good thing.

Harry and Hermione are above any other person in the books. That simply ain't true.
Harry is above anyone else in the books, thats what the whole stories about, Harry having this great power, being the only one to stop evil, you've read it so i'm not quite sure what you mean by that.
JK has also said that Harry needs Hermione, so if the greatest hero of them all needs her then surely she must have something that no one else does. It doesn't necessarily mean she's more important than Ron as a person, but when it comes to the finel battle against fighting Voldemort she is.

Yes Hermione is smart. But she is also a character that has the biggest faults. One of the reasons why Harry and Hermione were at each other throats in this book was simply because Hermione has the bad habit to put her two cents into everyone's life. She tends to think that her opinion is above everyone else. Hermione needs to learn to respect not only other people's opinions but also that sometimes things are not the way you want them to be and that to change them you need patience and a bit of tactics. Something that Hermione lacks horribly of. Is not to impose your view on others. That's simply wrong. The fact that JKR has not dealt with this and she continue to throw fire into the mix says that she is planning have Hermione learns this in a sinister way.
Agreed Hermione has a very serious fault but its also because of her constant poking in Harry's life which is why she is such a good friend. She's been like this since the first book and if Harry didn't like it then he and Ron would not have been friends with her.

The problem with Ron is that, we do not get past that the friendship part. Even when he likes Hermione, he is more content to sit at the sidelines and complain about what Hermione is doing with any other guy rather than be that any other guy himself. He lacks the courage, he is not in love with Hermione though he clearly loves Hermione.
:clap: great Sone, Ron has the normal feelings for a girl that you would expect any teenager to feel, its also because of this that makes it obvious to us, so thats why i feel that if Hermione liked Ron back in that normal way then we would have seen it.

I disagree. Harry is not at Hermione's intelligence level. Harry had quite the time to keep up with this studies just as Ron. He did worst than Ron in some ways and he had quite the trouble to keep up. Even with Ron having prefect duties and Harry having more time than in previous books he still didn't do that well. Potions is one class that Ron does well. Snape usually picks less on Ron than in Hermione or Harry. Simply because Snape can't stand Harry and He picks on Hermione for being a Know it all or however he calls her. Hermione may be intelligent but she is alone on that area. Neither Ron or Hermione shared that with her.

I did not say Harry was on Hermione's intelligence level. I said that Ron was not on Harry and Hermione's level. Especially Hermione's. In any case, Harry had his detentions as well as DA meetings that he kept planning. I also did not ask whether Ron does well in a class, but has ever had a better grade in one class than Harry or Hermione? Or have we heard Ron ever doing one spell better than Harry or Hermione?

If they ask her for her opinion than they should know she has an opinion and Hermione is in the books very often ask for her opinion. Or dos Harry sit there and think about his own opinion and Hermione just burst in say she interrupt his thoughts and say in a way my opinion is this and that and your opinion isn't worth to think about.
Isn't she asked in the books? Aren't they together guessing what is to do?
I suppose they are.

Yes Hermione burst in and interrupts. Is one of the things that Hermione is best at doing. Many times and not just with Harry or Ron Hermione puts in her opinion above anyone else. Even when she isn't aware of the full problem.

Thats far, really far. How could see Mariettas mother get this coins? I don't see anything wrong with it. But its even kinda stupid that nobody would get suspicious if at the same time so many Students are away and on one floor. Like as they did leave this room again they did leave always together. Now how smart is this from both Harry and Hermione that at the same time 20 students go through the floors and possible talk to each other.
Its up to Harry to say something not Hermione. He is the leader, He is the one who say "Good idea, bad idea!" and not Hermione.

If this isn't bashing than I can say that no H/Hr did bash Ron or Ginny because they just show the failures of this characters. I hope we can agree in this, aren't we?

Between I did say in the past that if someone would be expelled than is it Hermione because she do the most rule breaking things from the trio and I did even predict that after all the time she was right, or lucky, she will be once wrong and without luck. So I didn't say she is perfect its you who do understand it.
Like I do understand that Ginny is perfect if I read your post quiet naturelly I guess


It's not far, it's not stupid, it's not bashing it's reality, FP. This is in the books is not bashing. You really believe that the line was there to portrait something that we already knew? That Hermione was brilliant and above her grade. If anybody needed reiteration for this at this stage of the books, I would have suggested to go back and read them again. Because we all know that Hermione is brilliant.

There was no need to reiterate that you had to be carefull with the coin because you could get it mixed up with a real one. Why not any other coin? Why use one that was a perfect match to the ones that are used on the wizarding world? Out of all the coins that she could you use, JKR choose for Hermione to make one that was a replica of the wizarding ones. It's a dangerous idea.

Ron won't have the problem of giving it mistakenly because he doesn't have real ones, but the rest do. They do have parents that give them money. One of them that sets out that coin even by accident and the goblins will have another revolution just like the ones we have been hearing about for a long time now. You really think that Marietta's mother (which works in the ministry) is going to stay quiet and not retaliate now that her daughter's face is worst than Eloise Midgen? We are at war. Many pureblood wizards dispice Muggleborns, which Hermione is one. It gives them the PERFECT oportunity to use it and destroy the idea that muggleborns deserve a place on the wizarding world.

Gily Ann

EDA

Buckbeak
Yes i agree that Hermione is Harry's 'sidekick' but she's not just that she is also his friend and to some extent, although i suppose this can be argued, his guide, she gives him a lot of help that makes him see the light makes him understand. JK may have said that Hermione is Harry's sidekick but she's also said that she is a 'tool' used to get information to Harry much the same as Dumbledore.


Yes a tool not a romantic partner. Those are two diferent things. I'm sure that Dumbledore is not a contender for Harry's love. Being helfull and handy

Yes i admit i really do think Ron is an idiot, but i'm very much like him myself so i don't dislike him in anyway. I do not however think Hermione is a saint and nor will you hear me say it, i also don't think thats Ron's purpose is to 'fill in H/Hr love and understanding.To give them a hard time with his stupidity and his remarks full on nonsense' I actually feel that Ron has no part what-so-ever in the relationship between H/Hr. Relationships with three people in it are never a good thing.

I agree relationships between three never worked out.

Harry is above anyone else in the books, thats what the whole stories about, Harry having this great power, being the only one to stop evil, you've read it so i'm not quite sure what you mean by that.
JK has also said that Harry needs Hermione, so if the greatest hero of them all needs her then surely she must have something that no one else does. It doesn't necessarily mean she's more important than Ron as a person, but when it comes to the finel battle against fighting Voldemort she is.

Harry needs Hermione inteligence which she also said that Ron need it in the same interview. But that doesn't mean that neither have to be her love interest. Harry needs Dumbledore badly but that doesn't mean that he is contender for Harry's love. One thing is very differently from the other. A romantic partner have different connotations.

I also did not ask whether Ron does well in a class, but has ever had a better grade in one class than Harry or Hermione? Or have we heard Ron ever doing one spell better than Harry or Hermione?

Nobody does better than Hermione in class not even Harry.

It's not far, it's not stupid, it's not bashing it's reality, FP. This is in the books is not bashing. You really believe that the line was there to portrait something that we already knew? That Hermione was brilliant and above her grade. If anybody needed reiteration for this at this stage of the books, I would have suggested to go back and read them again. Because we all know that Hermione is brilliant.

I didn't mean she is just perfect and I didn't say its bashing. I said if this what you wrote isn't bashing (What you did write) than is that what I do about Ginny anfd Ron in the same way not bashing its just pointing out off failures.
About the stupid part I meaned how Harry and Hermione handle the DA situation. It is stupid to think nobody get suspicious if 20 kids leave a room at the same time. Hermione has failures thats why she is a good written character.

Ron won't have the problem of giving it mistakenly because he doesn't have real ones, but the rest do. They do have parents that give them money. One of them that sets out that coin even by accident and the goblins will have another revolution just like the ones we have been hearing about for a long time now. You really think that Marietta's mother (which works in the ministry) is going to stay quiet and not retaliate now that her daughter's face is worst than Eloise Midgen? We are at war. Many pureblood wizards dispice Muggleborns, which Hermione is one. It gives them the PERFECT oportunity to use it and destroy the idea that muggleborns deserve a place on the wizarding world.
This is playing "What If?" But it didn't. Like I said you will get your time if Hermione fails and I guess it will be in book6 but till now she just didn't. Like Harry had luck, did has Hermione luck.
Destiney? :D A joke, A bad one

I didn't mean she is just perfect and I didn't say its bashing. I said if this what you wrote isn't bashing (What you did write) than is that what I do about Ginny anfd Ron in the same way not bashing its just pointing out off failures.
About the stupid part I meaned how Harry and Hermione handle the DA situation. It is stupid to think nobody get suspicious if 20 kids leave a room at the same time. Hermione has failures thats why she is a good written character.

No what I wrote wasn't bashing. There is text to support what I have said. I'm not disputing that she is well written character. I agree she is. But she has lines that JKR is building to be a problem in the future. The DA was a good idea what it wasn't a good idea was to use coins for it, specially ones that had such close resemblance to real ones.

This is playing "What If?" But it didn't. Like I said you will get your time if Hermione fails and I guess it will be in book6 but till now she just didn't. Like Harry had luck, did has Hermione luck.

This is the predictions and theories page. JKR has a base up for it.

Gily Ann

Nobody does better than Hermione in class not even Harry.

Actually he did, back in their third year. Hermione said so herself.

No what I wrote wasn't bashing. There is text to support what I have said. I'm not disputing that she is well written character. I agree she is. But she has lines that JKR is building to be a problem in the future. The DA was a good idea what it wasn't a good idea was to use coins for it, specially ones that had such close resemblance to real ones.



This is the predictions and theories page. JKR has a base up for it.

Gily Ann

Once again I didn't say you bash her.

As for prediction and theories forum: I thought always this is for things we don't know or which lay in the future and not about canon how it could have ended or how much trouble Hermione could have been get in. That is playing "What if" but it wasn't like that. Nobody did get this coins, nobody did caught Hermione. No plane of her did go wrong, maybe the forrest one. But still she hadn't to pay like you write it in your "What if!" should I say Theorie.

Yes a tool not a romantic partner. Those are two diferent things. I'm sure that Dumbledore is not a contender for Harry's love. Being helfull and handy
Harry needs Hermione inteligence which she also said that Ron need it in the same interview. But that doesn't mean that neither have to be her love interest. Harry needs Dumbledore badly but that doesn't mean that he is contender for Harry's love. One thing is very differently from the other. A romantic partner have different connotations.
Ron needs her intellegence? yes he does but only for his homework, Ron doesn't have to fight in the battle that could cost him his life, he probably will, but unlike Harry he has a choice not to. Harry and Ron need Hermione for two seperate reasons and Harry's reason is far more serious.
Harry does need Dumbledore badly but as much as Dumbledore has been a great asset to Harry but he didn't solve the riddle of the potions in PS, he didn't realize it was a Baslisk in CoS, he didn't go with Harry to rescue Buckbeak and Sirius, he didn't help Harry out with all his spells so that he will survive the challenges of the TWT, Dumbledore also didn't give Harry all the advice whether welcome or not that he could ever need, he didn't go with him to the DOM and so on...
Dumbledore is amazing but he and Hermione help Harry differently, and to win the fight against evil Harry is going to need Hermione's help because that is the kind that will stop Voldemort. IMO

Actually he did, back in their third year. Hermione said so herself.

Well yes the only class that Harry is better than Hermione is Defense Against the Darks arts and that's because he needed. JKR said something about that. Other than that Hermione is better than anybody at class.

Once again I didn't say you bash her.

As for prediction and theories forum: I thought always this is for things we don't know or which lay in the future and not about canon how it could have ended or how much trouble Hermione could have been get in. That is playing "What if" but it wasn't like that. Nobody did get this coins, nobody did caught Hermione. No plane of her did go wrong, maybe the forrest one. But still she hadn't to pay like you write it in your "What if!" should I say Theorie.

Well that is what I understood. The coins are in everyone's pocket. It is a continuos line.

Ron needs her intellegence? yes he does but only for his homework, Ron doesn't have to fight in the battle that could cost him his life, he probably will, but unlike Harry he has a choice not to. Harry and Ron need Hermione for two seperate reasons and Harry's reason is far more serious.
Harry does need Dumbledore badly but as much as Dumbledore has been a great asset to Harry but he didn't solve the riddle of the potions in PS, he didn't realize it was a Baslisk in CoS, he didn't go with Harry to rescue Buckbeak and Sirius, he didn't help Harry out with all his spells so that he will survive the challenges of the TWT, Dumbledore also didn't give Harry all the advice whether welcome or not that he could ever need, he didn't go with him to the DOM and so on...
Dumbledore is amazing but he and Hermione help Harry differently, and to win the fight against evil Harry is going to need Hermione's help because that is the kind that will stop Voldemort. IMO

You think Ron at the moment of a fight will bakc out on Harry? He hasn't done it yet I have no reason to believe that he will start doing it. I would agree that Ron need Hermione's intelligence for his homework on a half level. Mainly because JKR did specifically said for what purpose was Ron in need of Hermione's intelligence. Who knows if Ron will need Hermione's reasearching skills for something.

Again and none of that relates to romance. Hermione could be brilliant at reasearching, studies and getting the best book on the library but that doesn't mean that she has to be his love interest. How many people exist that have a partner that it isn't their spouse or girlfriend. Tons if not thousands. A romantic partners have different connotations and requirements.

Gily Ann

You think Ron at the moment of a fight will back out on Harry? He hasn't done it yet I have no reason to believe that he will start doing it.
No i do not think Ron will turn his back on Harry, and i very much suppose he will be there at Harry's side fighting Voldemort when the time comes. But Ron has a choice about being there. The prophecy has kind of taken free-will out of Harry's life because what ever he does now, in the end he will meet Voldemort and one of them will die. Ron's life does not revolve around a prophecy so he has a choice about being there.

Sorry i was going to write more but i have to go, i'll be back later to finish this though.

Why does every post have to be so long?

Anyhoo, Narami, it's all good. No hard feelings.

Daveydee, GilyAnn, anyone I might have missed, wonderful posts. Take a :clap:


Ron needs her intellegence? yes he does but only for his homework, Ron doesn't have to fight in the battle that could cost him his life, he probably will, but unlike Harry he has a choice not to. Harry and Ron need Hermione for two seperate reasons and Harry's reason is far more serious.
Harry does need Dumbledore badly but as much as Dumbledore has been a great asset to Harry but he didn't solve the riddle of the potions in PS, he didn't realize it was a Baslisk in CoS, he didn't go with Harry to rescue Buckbeak and Sirius, he didn't help Harry out with all his spells so that he will survive the challenges of the TWT, Dumbledore also didn't give Harry all the advice whether welcome or not that he could ever need, he didn't go with him to the DOM and so on...
Dumbledore is amazing but he and Hermione help Harry differently, and to win the fight against evil Harry is going to need Hermione's help because that is the kind that will stop Voldemort. IMO

Okay, first of all, Harry and Ron both need Hermione for help on school work. It's not just Ron alone. Second, Harry needs both Hermione and Ron. Alone, neither of them can give the emotional support he needs. Togetehr however, it balances out. Hermione's the thinker and Ron's the feeler.

Second, where was DD you ask? DD couldn't be there. DD couldn't be around when they were fighting for the stone. He couldn't be around when Harry was in the chamber. DD copuldn't be around to save them from the dementors, otherwise he would have changed the past and that's a big no no. DD is a fair person and so wouldn't help Harry with the triwizard. In fact, if he did it would probably be constituted as cheating on his part and Madame Maxime and Karkaroff were already ****** off with him. And lastly, he couldn't go to the DoM. For one thing, he was no longer at school and therefore could have no idea that Harry had his vision and was on a mission to rescue Sirius. Only until Snape told him and *** Order members could he actually go.

To win the fight against Voldemort, Harry's going to need everyone he loves and cares about. Not just Hermione. He's going to need Ron, the Weasley's, Dumbledore. Everyone he's cared about and cares about. Like I've said, Hermione comes into the trio with the brains, Ron's the emotional one, and Harry's the hero. He's going to need both of his best friends, nopt just one of them, to defeat Voldie.

Yup. :p

I agree with Gily ann on this. Hermione is above Harry's intelligence in the classroom, as far as studying, research and classes. However, in the battle situation and defense against the dark arts, Harry is far and away above any of the school. Remember that, although both Cho and Hermione managed to produce a patronus in a classroom situation, we haven't seen either of them produce a full-blown patronus in a real-life situation, with actual dementors facing them down.

Again, what does someone's intelligence level have to do with romance? Harry does admire her for her brilliance; however, Harry is not attracted to her, i.e. "I don't think your ugly, Hermione".

As for Hermione's flaws coming back to haunt her, I believe we will see the repercussions of them in the next couple of books. She is not treating the House-elves with respect, by trying to trick them into freedom. They refuse to come to Gryffindor tower now. Her treatment of the Centaurs was not correct, either and she made them angry by showing "the arrogance of their kind".

Harry is going to need a lot of different people to help defeat Voldemort. Hermione is just one cog in the wheel. She is the brains of the trio and also, she was Harry's second choice to take to the Ministry of Magic. Ron was his first.

Because of my exchanges with Turambar and FP earlier, I feel in part responsible for this circuitous debate about the relative value to Harry of his two pals. It comes up for debate with regular frequency and invariably ends up as Ron-bashing or Hermione-bashing, with everybody claiming that they're bashing nobody. It almost always ends up with harsh words and bad feeling.

So can I be so bold as to steer a different course. Somebody here (I think it was Buckbeak) the other day asked me why R/Hr would be good/relevant to the plot. This was originally to form part of a much larger post; but now would seem an opportune moment to post it.


Personally, I see, at this stage, the R/Hr situation as a parallel to what are undoubtedly the primary themes of the series. Reconciliation, tolerance and unity. The books are littered with such references. Almost as though what Harry must help to bring about in the wizarding world at large is being played out before his eyes in the two people closest to him. Two people, so long at loggerheads through superficial differences, drawing on common core values and learning the virtues of tolerance and coming together in a great union. Is that not the big message that JK is trying to deliver in these books? As she said through Dumbledore:

'Differences of language and habit are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open'

If that's not the single most prominent message in the books, I don't know what is.


It may indeed be the case that Harry brings about that union between Ron and Hermione, as he will no doubt ultimately bring about unity in the WW. Alternatively, it might be that R/Hr happens spontaneously and that Harry learns fundamental lessons from that, which will equip him for his final challenge.

Either way, it answers the question of 'What is the point of R/Hr?'

Okay, first of all, Harry and Ron both need Hermione for help on school work. It's not just Ron alone. Second, Harry needs both Hermione and Ron. Alone, neither of them can give the emotional support he needs. Togetehr however, it balances out. Hermione's the thinker and Ron's the feeler.
Yes Harry probably does need Ron i'm not saying he doesn't but JK has actually said that Harry (and Ron) need Hermione, she never said Harry needs Ron badly, if she did then everything i wrote before can be disregarded and i will look like a fool.

Second, where was DD you ask? DD couldn't be there. DD couldn't be around when they were fighting for the stone. He couldn't be around when Harry was in the chamber. DD copuldn't be around to save them from the dementors, otherwise he would have changed the past and that's a big no no. DD is a fair person and so wouldn't help Harry with the triwizard. In fact, if he did it would probably be constituted as cheating on his part and Madame Maxime and Karkaroff were already ****** off with him. And lastly, he couldn't go to the DoM. For one thing, he was no longer at school and therefore could have no idea that Harry had his vision and was on a mission to rescue Sirius. Only until Snape told him and *** Order members could he actually go.
Ok you completely misunderstood me with everything i wrote about Dumbledore, which is my fault because iv never been very good with putting my thoughts in writing.
Now i'm not saying Hermione helps Harry more than Dumbledore, because thats not true. I was merely pointing out that in all the situations Harry has needed help, physically, not mentally, then Hermione has been the one to do that. Not in all the cases but Dumbledore has alwasy helped Harry from the sidelines, giving him what he needs when Dumbledore feels that he needs it. that is how all the great mentors work, they like to make their 'pupils' work things out for themselves and not let them rely on the more experienced all the time.Which has been great for Harry because he's learnt alot from it. But the truth is that if it weren't for Hermione and Ron (don't think that i'm disregarding him at all) then Harry would be dead, and thats the honest truth.

To win the fight against Voldemort, Harry's going to need everyone he loves and cares about. Not just Hermione. He's going to need Ron, the Weasley's, Dumbledore. Everyone he's cared about and cares about. Like I've said, Hermione comes into the trio with the brains, Ron's the emotional one, and Harry's the hero. He's going to need both of his best friends, nopt just one of them, to defeat Voldie. Harry is going to need everyone that JK says he needs and she's said he needs Hermione, its not like i'm making this up, this is what she has said.
I don't deny for a second that Harry will need the support of everyone to get through this battle, but Hermione is obviously to become more important whether romantically or not, on this case.
Harry is going to need a lot of different people to help defeat Voldemort. Hermione is just one cog in the wheel. She is the brains of the trio and also, she was Harry's second choice to take to the Ministry of Magic. Ron was his first.
Ok Prongs Hermione was not second choice, the thing was that both harry and Hermione we're covered in blood and that was what was attracting the Thestrals, Harry told Hermione to stay so she could attract some more, he was hardly going to say 'Hermione you and Ron fly to the DOM and hold Voldemort off untill i get there, i'll stay here to attract some more Thestrals so the others can get on'

Yes Harry probably does need Ron i'm not saying he doesn't but JK has actually said that Harry (and Ron) need Hermione, she never said Harry needs Ron badly, if she did then everything i wrote before can be disregarded and i will look like a fool.

Yeah, Harry needs Ron but Harry and Ron need Hermione, And Harry needs Hermione badly.
There is probably why I think Hermione knows more about Harry as DD. Just because she is more around him and did go with him through such adventures (I don't forget Ron. I'm just focusing at Hermione) DD didn't do this, or? He didn't hear Harry everyday. If he did than once in a month or so..

Ok you completely misunderstood me with everything i wrote about Dumbledore, which is my fault because iv never been very good with putting my thoughts in writing.
Now i'm not saying Hermione helps Harry more than Dumbledore, because thats not true. I was merely pointing out that in all the situations Harry has needed help, physically, not mentally, then Hermione has been the one to do that. Not in all the cases but Dumbledore has alwasy helped Harry from the sidelines, giving him what he needs when Dumbledore feels that he needs it. that is how all the great mentors work, they like to make their 'pupils' work things out for themselves and not let them rely on the more experienced all the time.Which has been great for Harry because he's learnt alot from it. But the truth is that if it weren't for Hermione and Ron (don't think that i'm disregarding him at all) then Harry would be dead, and thats the honest truth.

I understand you quiet good because you seem to think in that case like me. I agree with you.

Reconciliation, tolerance and unity. The books are littered with such references. Almost as though what Harry must help to bring about in the wizarding world at large is being played out before his eyes in the two people closest to him. Two people, so long at loggerheads through superficial differences, drawing on common core values and learning the virtues of tolerance and coming together in a great union.

I do see it different. Probably because my ship is more focused at the hero. I explain this books are getting darker as far we comes to the end. Now some say it lose almost fun to see Harry more and more have burden on his shoulders and now after the Thestrals are in this books its looks like we get more deads that say in OotP it was it only 3 of a class who could see them at the end of book7 it will be special if you can't see them. So its getting pretty dark. So I expect that JKR will create in this serie what gives hope and light and that is H/Hr in my thinking.

I'm sure you disagree.

I think Harry's going to need as much help as he can get. It's not only Hermione, and I'm not saying she will be useless or anything, but it has already been proved in the books that Harry has a lot of people who support him, not just Hermione.

I think Harry's going to need as much help as he can get. It's not only Hermione, and I'm not saying she will be useless or anything, but it has already been proved in the books that Harry has a lot of people who support him, not just Hermione.

Its not said that it will be just Hermione. It just said He needs her badly not more and not less. What we can understand under this is a matter of possible which we can only think off as far canon did show it already and after that Hermione did more as anybody else for Harry.
Just try PoA. There was nothing what was for herself, or? She isn't related to Sirius or has something to do with Buckbeak. All what she can have from this adventure is: 1) to get expelled, 2)caught in the time, 3) Die, 4) Get into Azkaban because breaking the highest wizard law.
If I take this than I can expect from Hermione she will break in future even more rules and laws

Ok you completely misunderstood me with everything i wrote about Dumbledore, which is my fault because iv never been very good with putting my thoughts in writing.

It's all good. I just interpreted it differently than you meant. It's not your bad, I'll go reread your post and try to see where you're coming from.

Yeah, Harry needs Ron but Harry and Ron need Hermione, And Harry needs Hermione badly.
There is probably why I think Hermione knows more about Harry as DD. Just because she is more around him and did go with him through such adventures (I don't forget Ron. I'm just focusing at Hermione) DD didn't do this, or? He didn't hear Harry everyday. If he did than once in a month or so..

Uh, that quote by JK was said because everyone was asking her where was the strong female character. I think that was the case. And in any case it's true. Harry needs her badly. He needs her help when the trio's saving the day. He needs her help on work. He needs her help with girls. He needs her help badly.

I do see it different. Probably because my ship is more focused at the hero. I explain this books are getting darker as far we comes to the end. Now some say it lose almost fun to see Harry more and more have burden on his shoulders and now after the Thestrals are in this books its looks like we get more deads that say in OotP it was it only 3 of a class who could see them at the end of book7 it will be special if you can't see them. So its getting pretty dark. So I expect that JKR will create in this serie what gives hope and light and that is H/Hr in my thinking.

hehehe. I'm giggling to myself. I'm sorry, well I'm not really, but I have to disagree. H/Hr is the light of the whole story? I'm sorry but I don't agree. I don't buy it. This is just my humble opinion but I think the whole "light" per se of the story is the fact that there's good in the wizarding world. Basically, in my opinion, the story's an allegory. Good and evil. Taking the easy route or taking the hard route. Good and taking the hard route is in my opinion what brings the light to the story. I'm just repeating myself.

I'm sure you disagree.

You're darn skippy I disagree. :rotfl:

I do see it different. Probably because my ship is more focused at the hero.

That is a very salient point FP. The H/Hr ship is more focused on the hero, and I think that therein lies its faults. Because, whilst the books paint a progressive picture that puts the onus very firmly upon Harry for the solution to the Voldemort problem, in that it is through Harry and Harry alone that the elimination of Voldemort will be possible, they paint an equally progressive and equally clear picture which indicates that Harry's actions are both dependant upon and have an impact upon an ever larger group of people. It's the big picture, if you like, that we are coming to see as we approach the climax of the series. If OotP taught us anything, I should have thought that was it. No longer are we confined to the cosy familiarity of the trios' adventures of PS, CoS and PoA. And so, yes, your ship is very focused on the hero, and by so being, I think overlooks the big themes and messages of late GoF and OotP.

It may indeed be the case that Harry brings about that union between Ron and Hermione, as he will no doubt ultimately bring about unity in the WW. Alternatively, it might be that R/Hr happens spontaneously and that Harry learns fundamental lessons from that, which will equip him for his final challenge.

Daveydee:

I actually agree with you that Harry will be the means of unifying the wizarding world together. I've felt that this was possibly his ultimate role in the series, besides defeating Voldemort. A short list of whom Harry has built relationships with: a werewolf, a convict, a poor Wizard(s), a muggle born, a squib (Mrs. Figg), the merpeople (who he impressed), Firenze, Dobby, a part-veela, a reformed deatheater (yes, I believe they will reconcile), Aragog, a half-giant.

As for a union between Ron and Hermione, they come from opposite ends of the spectrum: a pure blood wizard with learned prejudices, i.e. "the house-elves like their condition" and Hermione, a muggle born who has learned a lot of what she knows of the wizarding world from school and not actual experiences. If Ron and Hermione put both of their knowledge and experience together, they could actually do something useful with the house-elves situation.

Yeah, Harry needs Ron but Harry and Ron need Hermione, And Harry needs Hermione badly.
There is probably why I think Hermione knows more about Harry as DD. Just because she is more around him and did go with him through such adventures (I don't forget Ron. I'm just focusing at Hermione) DD didn't do this, or? He didn't hear Harry everyday. If he did than once in a month or so..

Ok I can't even start to comprehend this? Dumbledore doesn't know Harry. Hermione knows Harry more than Dumbledore. Now I have to say that this is far. I don't think anybody knows more about Harry than Dumbledore.

I do see it different. Probably because my ship is more focused at the hero. I explain this books are getting darker as far we comes to the end. Now some say it lose almost fun to see Harry more and more have burden on his shoulders and now after the Thestrals are in this books its looks like we get more deads that say in OotP it was it only 3 of a class who could see them at the end of book7 it will be special if you can't see them. So its getting pretty dark. So I expect that JKR will create in this serie what gives hope and light and that is H/Hr in my thinking.

LOL :rotfl: It seems to me that H/Hr ship is more focus on Hermione not Harry. Harry will need both of his sidekicks for Voldemort's defeat not only one? Harry is the one that needs to defeat Voldemort's not Hermione, not Ron, not Dumbledore. Harry and Harry alone.

Gily Ann

It would seem as if this conversation is getting a little sidetracked. Personally I think that we should be looking more at how other people ineract with Harry rather than how Harry interacts with other people because the books are written from Harry's point of view and as soon as Harry truely likes someone we, the readers, will surely know pretty quickly (although many would argue that he already likes someone and we can look to his thoughts to see that, I however disagree).

Just a little Mad I? ;) Anyway, I have to ask, what other people?

Thanks to FP, Sone, Noddwyd and Buckbeak for debating the point while I've been asleep.
Daveydee, there are a number of reasons why the issue of Hermione's status relative to Harry, her power and intelligence and her actions matter to the question of romance.

If we look at the situation, Harry has two best friends, one of whom (Hermione) he spent time with on two adventures outside the trio in OOTP and whose actions made a significant difference to how he felt during the year. I'm referring to Hermione's idea to set up the DA which, Harry says, was the major factor in helping him get through the year, and her idea to get his story published which changed people's opinions about him in the school and outside and eased a lot of negative pressure on him.
This is important because not only was Hermione right about most things in OOTP but her actions - such as getting Harry out of the room at Christmas - spoke louder than words, in contrast to the more limited impact of ineffectual sympathy as epitomised by Molly towards Harry after the snake dream.

Harry and Hermione have now had four major periods of time together without Ron: the time turner adventure in POA, before the first task in GOF, the two forest adventures in OOTP.
The DOM battle marked the first time since the time-turner adventure that they faced a similar crisis/adventure situation together but WITHIN a wider group of friends. And look at how they behaved:
1) They acted as a unit within the group, looking after one another. They each prevented the other from being harmed by death eater spells.
2) They lead the group
3) They exhibited the same physical pattern in a crisis they show on adventures alone: Hermione grabbing Harry's arm for support while Ron is there, pulling Harry back from the veil, Harry grabbing her robes to keep her with him when they escape the death eaters.

Their relationship has developed through their experiences alone together. They have become closer, they show reliance on each other, trust, confidence in each other, the need to protect each other. Their knowledge of each other has increased, they know each other better than anyone else. They sometimes share exchanges with each other - such as Harry's comment to Hermione about the DA coins - that shows an awareness that they have a special rapport.
So what I'm saying is their talents and intelligence and power has an impact on their relationship with each other.

Now key questions in looking at a future romance for Harry are who is he closest to, who does he rely on, who is most important to him, who does he need. This is where the impact of Harry and Hermione's 'team-work' relationship can be felt.
For a start, Hermione is Harry's closest female friend. Arguably she is now his closest friend. In series terms she has played a major role in every book and is the female lead character. We have two books to go.
So, in structural terms, a girlfriend for Harry who is not Hermione, would have to leap frog Hermione to become the most significant girl in Harry's life. With just two books to go.
Most shippers, I'd hope, would expect that Harry's girlfriend, his love, should and would be more important to him than a female friend. But importantly, JKR has increased Hermione's influence on and closeness to Harry in OOTP, making her even more essential to him than less. Again here is how their overall place in the story impacts on their relationship.

Structurally, a Harry/Hermione romance is no problem at all because they are both essential to the plot. If we look at Harry's relationship with Cho, he was attracted to her, she looked 'suitable' on paper, yet he didn't put much time into the romance over three years. Harry would have to spend more time on a more serious romance, just as the second war begins. With H/Hr all that's required is continuing development and increasing closeness.

Again the issue of how the overall plot and status of the characters impacts on a future romance: look at how reluctant Harry was to include Ginny, Neville and Luna on the DOM adventure. There are very few people he will want to rely on or to get close to him. And Hermione, with her desperation to ensure Harry's safety, is hardly going to step aside and allow another girl to wield influence over Harry at the risk of him making a stupid decision and getting killed.

Turambar:

Again the issue of how the overall plot and status of the characters impacts on a future romance: look at how reluctant Harry was to include Ginny, Neville and Luna on the DOM adventure. There are very few people he will want to rely on or to get close to him. And Hermione, with her desperation to ensure Harry's safety, is hardly going to step aside and allow another girl to wield influence over Harry at the risk of him making a stupid decision and getting killed.

If you look at the overall plot status and characters and how they have an impact on future romance, I believe you have to consider Ron and Ginny into the mixture.

JKR has written Ron as a character who does have romantic feelings for Hermione; and there is evidence that Hermione returns Rons feelings. Evidence in book 5 included the gift of perfume, his continuing jealousy over Victor, and his non-platonic reaction to Hermione's kiss. Before any H/Hr relationship is possible, this is one storyline that will have to be resolved. So, the question remains: would JKR write a love triangle storyline or will JKR leave Ron's and Hermione's feelings as unresolved.

JKR has written Ginny as a character with unresolved feelings for Harry. Her personality and interests have been developed as compatible to Harry's. Why does JKR continue to emphasize Ginny's love interests (Harry, Michael, Dean?). Why did JKR remind viewers of Ginny's crush in both books 3 and 4, when it is completely irrelevent to the plot. If Ginny is not to be Harry's love interest, why the continuing emphasis on Ginny's romantic feelings?

Also regarding a potential disagreement with Hermione and Ginny over Harry's safety. Harry is getting older and is almost an adult. He doesn't need a babysitter, but needs a love interest that will treat him as an equal. Hermione doesn't fit this description, at this point in time, as the nagging, irritating and bossing pattern has continued throughout the books. Hermione is also Ginny's best friend. When H/G get together, there will be no conflict between the two of them.

Also, regarding Hermione's character status, I believe she is a sidekick, as well as Ron. We've seen a pattern in all the books where Harry spends time with one of them, as compared to the other. In books 1 and 2, I would say the focus was more on Harry and Ron's relationship. In books 3 and 5, Hermione was developed more. In book 4, I would say their relationship development was pretty equal. I don't feel that either relationship has changed and developed that greatly. Hermione still exhibits the same pattern of nagging, bossing, and irritating Harry that she has in past books, while Ron and Harry still enjoy the fun release that Quidditch brings, playing chess, and other typical "male bonding" situations. Harry will be on the Quidditch team next year (most likely) and we will start to see Harry having more time with Ron and Ginny.

In response to Harry's not letting others' into the group and Neville, Ginny and Luna's role in the next two books, I would have to say, as my personal opinion, that Neville was the one who shined at the MoM, rather than the others. He has proven to be a true Gryffindor and handled the situation in battle rather confidently. He has a connection with Harry, due to the prophecy and has a personal reason for wanting Voldemort to go down. Neville has a large role to play in defeating Voldemort and I expect his and Harry's friendship to expand in the next books.

Luna also will play an important role and Harry will become increasingly closer with her, as well. She is being written as the "anti-Hermione" and I predict that she and Hermione will come at odds during the next two books. I believe she will be the catalyst that brings Ron and Hermione together.

So to sum up the above, Harry is becoming close with all of his friends and I don't see Hermione as signaled out above the others, at this point and I certainly don't see any development for Hermione to be Harry's love interest, at this time, as there really is no indication for attraction on either side.

He doesn't need a babysitter, but needs a love interest that will treat him as an equal. Hermione doesn't fit this description, at this point in time....

Harry and Hermione are the only ones who fits that description at this point in time. It is Harry who Hermione grabs on to when she is scared. It is Hermione who gets through to Harry. They're the only ones in the book that come the closest to having an equal need for the other. Hermione does not need Harry to be "acting the hero" for her, she is smart and brave enough (Gryffindor, Gryffindor) as it is. Harry does not need a babysitter, he is not stupid (very much the opposite) and he has already dealt with more problems than many adult wizards. However, that does not mean they do not need each other to sometimes provide that courage or to give that wisdom. Hermione "nags" because she does care. It is not about Harry breaking into Umbridge's office, it is about what may happen to Harry if he gets caught. Hermione needs Harry too. Harry understands this but that does not stop him from being angry with her which is normal, especially for a teenager. Hermione will be there for Harry always but she will not be a subordinate. She is going to have her own opinion as well. Considering part of his mind is starting to speak in her voice, I do not think he minds that at all.

Harry and Hermione have now had four major periods of time together without Ron: the time turner adventure in POA, before the first task in GOF, the two forest adventures in OOTP.
The DOM battle marked the first time since the time-turner adventure that they faced a similar crisis/adventure situation together but WITHIN a wider group of friends. And look at how they behaved:
1) They acted as a unit within the group, looking after one another. They each prevented the other from being harmed by death eater spells.
2) They lead the group
3) They exhibited the same physical pattern in a crisis they show on adventures alone: Hermione grabbing Harry's arm for support while Ron is there, pulling Harry back from the veil, Harry grabbing her robes to keep her with him when they escape the death eaters.

But all of this has nothing to do with love. This isn't about who's smarter or who knows how to do spells better. This is about romantic feelings. None of that shows romantic feelings.

Now key questions in looking at a future romance for Harry are who is he closest to, who does he rely on, who is most important to him, who does he need. This is where the impact of Harry and Hermione's 'team-work' relationship can be felt.
For a start, Hermione is Harry's closest female friend. Arguably she is now his closest friend. In series terms she has played a major role in every book and is the female lead character. We have two books to go.
So, in structural terms, a girlfriend for Harry who is not Hermione, would have to leap frog Hermione to become the most significant girl in Harry's life. With just two books to go.
Most shippers, I'd hope, would expect that Harry's girlfriend, his love, should and would be more important to him than a female friend. But importantly, JKR has increased Hermione's influence on and closeness to Harry in OOTP, making her even more essential to him than less. Again here is how their overall place in the story impacts on their relationship.

LOL, I have to ask this. Is there any room for Harry's opinion on who he likes? Clearly up until book 5 Harry has shown no romantic feelings towards Hermione. This isn't about a business partner is about romantic feelings. Again none of that says any indication that Harry has romantic feelings.

Structurally, a Harry/Hermione romance is no problem at all because they are both essential to the plot. If we look at Harry's relationship with Cho, he was attracted to her, she looked 'suitable' on paper, yet he didn't put much time into the romance over three years. Harry would have to spend more time on a more serious romance, just as the second war begins. With H/Hr all that's required is continuing development and increasing closeness.

I disagree so much. H/Hr represent a HUGE problem as the series is going. As Prongs Sr. said both Ron and Ginny have been presented with a story line of feelings for Hermione and Harry. Before anything can happen that needs to be resolved and tied up. Harry already spends less time with Ron and Hermione. It's part of the separation of them coming to age.


Gily Ann

JKR has written Ron as a character who does have romantic feelings for Hermione; and there is evidence that Hermione returns Rons feelings. Evidence in book 5 included the gift of perfume, his continuing jealousy over Victor, and his non-platonic reaction to Hermione's kiss. Before any H/Hr relationship is possible, this is one storyline that will have to be resolved. So, the question remains: would JKR write a love triangle storyline or will JKR leave Ron's and Hermione's feelings as unresolved


The funny thing is this little snippet of your post is that the evidence you have given of which Ron and Hermione return each other's feelings is that the evidence given is only of the notion Ron > Hermione. Hermione does not return the feelings and you may think that Hermione's kiss is non-platonic but in the context that surrounds it, it can not be considered non-platonic a showing of Hermione's affections. It is only support. As for the question, there is already a love triangle happening, some have just not recognised it and I doubt JKR will leave the whole thing unresolved. There will become more clearer in the next two books.


But all of this has nothing to do with love. This isn't about who's smarter or who knows how to do spells better. This is about romantic feelings. None of that shows romantic feelings.


In response to your post regarding Turambar's. The section you cut out of Turambar's post is not showing the romantic feelings between Harry and Hermione clearly which you have a set mind upon. Many H/Hr's already see that there is Hermione > Harry in OOTP but not vice-versa.

All Turambar's post in that section you pointed out is the compatibility between the two, nothing about romance whatsoever. That they are compatible on a level that is different to other character's interactions and it works very well. It is a solid foundation towards a long lasting relationship.


LOL, I have to ask this. Is there any room for Harry's opinion on who he likes? Clearly up until book 5 Harry has shown no romantic feelings towards Hermione. This isn't about a business partner is about romantic feelings. Again none of that says any indication that Harry has romantic feelings


Of course there isn't indication in Harry's conscious mind that he has any romantic feelings towards Hermione at that point. Just because he does not have any in OOTP or the previous 4 books does not mean he can change, or that he change his mind about Ginny either.

I dunno why so many R/Hr's or H/G interpret some of the postings by H/Hr like they're already together. They clearly aern't together, all the postings are showing the base in which JKR can build on a relationship and there are many instances in how JKR has built that up throughout the books.

A quick question for R/Hr and H/G's, you's have already asked what us H/Hr's shipper would do if JKR wrote Harry with someone else or no-one but Would you believe if H/Hr did happen in canon at the end of Hogwarts and after into further life if JKR writes an epilogue? Or will you still believe it as R/Hr and/or H/G even if JKR says so that it is H/Hr and gives valid reasons and answers?

Sometimes I think personal preference comes into these debates a lot, I've seen ones where people think Ron deserves Hermione because Harry has everything, and Ron should at least get Hermione. I've just chosen one example here, but using that as an argument in preference of ships is ridiculous I reckon. It not only treats Hermione as some prize (which women are clearly not IMO) but it also makes Ron's character wrong. I'm not saying this of all R/Hr's, some have good explainations but some of the argument's I've seen on other forums just seem way left-field and destroys some of the essence of the characters that JKR has created.

Just one more question before I go into lurker mode again which is directed at everyone. Do you think IF JKR pairs one main pair up, then the other characters will also be paired up? e.g. H/Hr, R/L, N,G or R/Hr, H/G. The reason I ask this is because it seems a little too perfect and set - much like the OBHWF and personally I don't like things being so perfect.

Let get off the romantic love topic a bit. I want to talk about just
love and Harry
Harry is not very willing to recieve love on his end. In OFTP, we can see the limitation of Weasly family. Harry always feel as a outsider ever Mrs. Weasly mention Harry is as good as his son. As for Sirus, he is of course the closer thing Harry has as a father/brother. However, Sirus's status limited their interaction. Moreoever, ever Harry with his blindness can sense that Sirus view him as Jame replacement. This create a certain rift in their relationship,as he says in OFTP,"do he want to be like his father anymore?" This imply that Harry knows Sirus view Harry as a replacement and it will diappointed Sirus if harry no longer act like Jame.

The one love he have been willing accept their love are from Hagraid, Ron and Hermione. Currently I can not see Harry going to accept any more love easily. Ever Hagraid, Ron and Hermione does not have the honor to see the whole image of Harry Potter.

IMHO, it is not about do people love Harry, it is about do Harry want to accept the gift. May be he will find the peace and love he wants in death.

But subconsciously Harry's showing no real interest in Hermione either. I mean, if we were to talk about adjectives, words used to describe people, you'll notice that adjectives used to describe Hermione aren't that very flattering whereas adjectives used to describe Cho, Ginny, Parvati, Fleur, etc. are. I mean, this may sound shallow and all, but I do want Harry to have a girlfriend that he is somewhat physically attracted to. As of yet he's not physically attracted to Hermione, that may change but I'm not counting on it.

Also, haycheng, you're right. Harry's being given the gift of love from many people but it does seem that he takes it for granted or that he doesn't really acknowledge it. I don't know, maybe he needs to see another person die before it actually sinks in that there are people there that care and want to help him.

Greetings,

This is my first post on this topic; I'm relatively new to this board. I saw the first two Harry Potter movies in the theater and did not read any of the books until just recently (I read all 5 books within a week). Since then I've become very intrigued with the story and the great adventures that lie ahead in the next book.

After reading many people's ideas here on what sort of relationship will develop, I'd like to present a few of my thoughts I haven't seen mentioned.

First off, let me jump to the very end of book 7 on how I think the trio will end up.

Harry will end up with Ginny. Ron is his best friend and Harry loves everything about the Weasley family. Molly is the closest thing he's had to a mother. How natural it would be for him to "marry" into the family (I'm thinking way down the line here folks). One important thing about the movies is that the screenwriter (Kloves) was extremely concerned about what parts of the book he could leave out and what parts he couldn't and constantly consulted with JKR. In the first movie, Ginny is present but has only one line, "Good Luck." Yes this seems so trivial but I think it's important because otherwise I doubt that Ginny would have been included in the first movie at all had it not been a requirement. I think it was very important for Harry to have 'met' Ginny first.

Before Harry ever gets interested in Ginny, he'll have a romantic interest in Luna, but she'll die in book 6. It's sad to think about even, but considering what JKR said about there being more deaths in book 6, it makes sense.

As for Ron and Hermione, I'm really still not sure how they'll end up. If Ron and Hermione have a bit of a romance their relationship with Harry might become strained. On the other hand, I think the evidence in the book suggests that Harry wouldn't mind; it didn't seem to bother him when he partially overheard Hermione and Ron's conversation following the Yule ball. There are a lot of clues pointing to a Ron-Hermione relationship but I think it might take a lot more time to develop, maybe not until the last book. I'm sure there will be more characters introduced that may slow the development of a Ron/Hermione romance.

Edit: fixed spelling error.

Great posts, really great. Ecthelion, noddwyd, Turambar, sone, Buckbeak, Flying Phoenix, v@sh, Hawk and anyone else I've missed...brilliant! Am going back a few pages since I've been away for a day to address what I feel are some really big questions regarding:


-what this series is all about?
-whether love is important to our protagonist, Harry, in a personal sense? and
-what kind[s] of love Harry might need in order to return from darkness to light?

noddwyd
I don't know what JKR wants to convey to her readers with this series. Perhaps just simply a good vs evil story, where the hero and the villain battle each other to the death, charging in with equal amounts of hatred from both sides. Each seeing the other as 'in the wrong' and self-righteousness abounds. And if she wants it to be true to life, this is probably the route she will take, for this same scene has happened in real life more times than there are stars in the sky, and all it brings is death and destruction. Hate begets hate begets hate begets hate begets hate...... Do you see a pattern?
But, thankfully, it seems she does not want to go that way, and instead of just showing us what we already know, is trying to show us, along with Harry, that there is another way. She has already begun this process, through Dumbledore:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKR
"There is a room in the Department of Mysteries," interrupted Dumbledore, "that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."
I think we would all agree, that the force he is referring to either is love itself or is directly related to love.
Okay, well let's review. <snip>And now, as Dumbledore says, it saved him from possession even though it was what drove him there in the first place (and he wouldn't have even got there without his friends, who all have some love for him.) Love. It can be the greatest weakness, and yet, it can also be the greatest strength. I am detecting another pattern here, anybody else? No?

Dumbledore tells Harry that this love is what has kept him alive this long, and at least implies that he should not abandon it, for it is his greatest asset in the fight against Voldemort, (and hatred in general) but does he listen? No. He turns right around and takes the other path as I meantioned above. The path of darkness. The lonley one, where you've given up being human so you won't have to care anymore, and thus won't have to feel any of the pain that goes along with being human. And in the process giving up love, the very thing that has kept him alive for the past fifteen years (and also the thing that brought him into existence in the first place)

Okay, then, if Harry has already chosen the first path, then how are we going to convince him to walk all the way back to the fork and take the other one?

The crux of all, IMO. So what have we here? All the main points, for starters:

1. In your basic good vs evil story...the hero and the villain battle each other to the death, charging in with equal amounts of hatred from both sides.

And so we must each decide, is this: A. your typical G v E tale, where 'good' is simply whatever side the protagonist favours, and perhaps is also mirrored by his/her support for some cause, but where there may be little or no difference in the methods used by one side to defeat the other, or B. an alternative G v E tale, where integrity cuts to the bone, and means are in fact the same as the ends. A tale where 'good' momentarily triumphs over 'evil' [our protagonist defeats evil du jour]? Or a tale where good can transform evil, where there is the ongoing potential for good to overcome evil in future?

Clearly my choice is for the latter. Given Dumbledore's words and the fact that Harry does not have it in him to perform an unforgiveable curse, it seems to me his path is one of light and love to victory. Else, defeat. Actually and spiritually. Given that IMO the tradition G v E is death for Harry [metaphorically, that is, a spiritual death, if not physical death as well] as it means he must surely murder and/or use one of 'the 3' UC's. If Harry is in fact able to perform murder or an unforgiveable curse, however, he will certainly have lost the connection to that power he possesses beyond all others. Without this force, he is no longer Harry. He will then have become someone else not capable of defeating Voldemort, much less saving the rest of the world.

2. True to life...this same scene has happened in real life more times than there are stars in the sky, and all it brings is death and destruction. And the outcome: 'Hate begets hate begets hate begets hate begets hate...... Do you see a pattern'?

Yes. It is the typical path. When hate meets hate, those who live are not redeemed by what is taken by force. Those dead have not died for something greater than themselves. Hate is a personal thing, no matter its object.


3. There is another way. I think we would all agree, that the force [Dumbledore] is referring to either is love itself or is directly related to love.

Yes, agreed. As I mentioned recently to someone [and thanks to sone's ref] I am reminded of the Matrix [no one can be told...you have to see it for yourself], which in turn reminds me of Socrates and the allegory of the cave, and I'm sure they've been compared by someone as I've heard snippets of discussion here. To take just one aspect, Socrates was on a mission to free the minds of the people of Athens, so that they could seek and apprehend a greater [higher] knowledge of their reality. Neo is, as we know, on a mission to free the minds of the slaves from their illusory reality [matrix]. I really think JKR may be trying to in a sense free our minds and point beyond our typical reality and expectations of 'G v E', our cyclic reality and downward spiral of violence, to a fundamentally different way. A way where means themselves are in fact the means to end, or rather, the means are the end. That is, where the means define the end. Where good can overcome evil through transformation [continual process, 'upward spiral' implies hope for future] rather than force [momentary, future implies despair in downward spiral].

Let me take the comparison one step further. Socrates was thought mad and put to death for speaking on the existence of a higher plane of reality. Today no philosopher of merit disputes the weight of this contribution to our shared global repository of knowledge, especially in the West, as there are many Eastern counterparts with essentially identical philosophies. Plato immortalised Socrates' fate with the allegory of the cave, where prisoners are chained as slaves in a shadowland [they can hear only dim echoes and see only shadows by firelight of the external world]. However, this is all they know and they assume this to be the sum total of reality. One prisoner escapes and -- though initially blinded and dumbstruck by the sun, forms, and colour of the outer world -- grows to appreciate a fuller view of reality. Out of compassion, he returns to free those still chained [mind and body], but they mock and ridicule him as insane. Some may say it is crazy to believe that there could be something other than or better than our current possibilities, or that it could work in the 'real world', whilst others will argue that every new action or implementation was first dreamt of only in imagination. Actually re: MLK, Ghandi, we have already seen in action an aspect of what I think JKR is perhaps trying to say.

4. Love. It can be the greatest weakness, and yet, it can also be the greatest strength.

It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that [Harry possesses] in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all.

Love is our received knowledge, understanding, and perception on our finite plane of existence of the Infinite Light. A weakness, as we are vulnerable, and yet a strength beyond all others. Love took Lily's life willingly for Harry's and yet put Voldemort in a hellish beyond-death state because he underestimated its power. Love took Sirius to the DoM on Harry's behalf, where he willingly gave his life on behalf of Harry and the Order, and yet love saved Harry from the strongest dark magic in existence. I think we can see the ability of love to shape persons, actions, and events in JKR's world by even the most mundane of interpretations. No further commentary needed there... ;)

5. This love is [Harry's] greatest asset in the fight against Voldemort, (and hatred in general)...but does he listen [to Dumbledore]? No. He turns right around and takes the other path as I meantioned above. The path of darkness.

Agreed. Harry's failure to apply this greatest of forces to himself and his own darkness will prevent him from acknowledging its capacity for transformation against Voldemort, or external darkness. Additionally, Harry's failure to be receptive to love dictates that his heart will remain closed to the light and open to the darkness [despair, even hatred]. The Oracle told Socrates "know thyself" [and to yourself be true], at which point Socrates realised that without self-knowledge, no other knowledge is possible ['the unexamined life is not worth living']. Harry must come to know himself, to understand that he is the source, just Harry [i.e., his mind, his heart, his love and compassion], that he is the force beyond all others with the potential to transform love from hate, light from darkness. He requires only the key, the self-knowlege, to unlock his own mind and his own heart. As ecthelion said, this means acknowledgement. Not just of his responsibilities, his guilt, his power, but also, of his heart, his emotion.

Remember, Dumbledore specifically said that it was Harry's heart that overcame Voldemort even whilst his body was possessed. This is a powerful allegory of heart and mind over physical constraints. Slaves, political prisoners, and philosophers have echoed this same sentiment since time immemorial: they can take my body, but they cannot take my mind or my soul. But in OoP, this goes even further: the mind and the heart save the body. I don't think a stronger statement can be made for the power of love to overcome evil, and for power of thought, pure in intent and the eternal truth of love, to shape reality.

6. Okay, then, if Harry has already chosen the first path, then how are we going to convince him to walk all the way back to the fork and take the other one? [/b]

Yes, good point. In the end, I think whether Harry returns from darkness to light will depend on the interplay of several critical factors: the depth of Harry's despair, the amount of comfort those closest to Harry can bring to bear, and, most importantly, Harry's feelings, especially of love. Specifically:

-Will Harry be able to resolve his feelings toward his father and thus himself feel worthy as a man to love another? Let's be honest, that's huge. Lupin may offer critical help there, as he knew both James and Lily, but most importantly James. And Luna may offer help as well, if her mother knew Lily[?].

-If that barrier is successfully negotiated, then what of Sirius? Can Harry accept and transform the guilt? Again, has to do with his feelings of worth as a man. The fact that Harry feels guilty means he has accepted his reponsiblity in Sirius's death. Harry is for nearly all purposes an adult now, ahead of his time perhaps, but that is sometimes just how it is. That's a big part of what OoP and the DoM mysteries dealt with, and why now these issues are affecting Harry as never before. Harry can only tranform the guilt over Sirus if he can think on the love that Sirius had for him [and has still, even from across the Veil]. Can Luna help? I really hope so, for that was her gift to Harry at OoP's end. Or perhaps Lupin again, if he's knowledgeable, as he's certainly be touched by death and suffering as well.

-What of Harry's best friends? See the last sentence in no. 5, above, and also noddwyd's and Turambar's post on this re: love, including the platonic or universal love of friends and the deeper love of one. Harry's friends will certainly need to guide and support him with their love, and I think the love of his best friends will be critical in bringing Harry back to the light. However, [per inability to open the DoM mystery door], it's probably not sufficient to access the full measure of Harry's power/defeat Voldemort(fear, hatred)...
unless that common platonic love of friends becomes a truly platonic love of souls such as is possible between H/Hr, as this allows for a romantic aspect to the relationship as well, particularly if Harry &/or Hermione are already falling in love with one another [see no. 6, below]. This love of souls creates one from two esoterically, and would allow the strength of two united souls [one being Harry, potentially the most powerful of all wizards, who needs only to be truly loved and to truly give love to access the full measure of his power;)]. This was reinforced thematically IMO in OoP with the increasing togetherness, regard, and caring each has for the other, despite the occasional heat of the moment. Which me leads to...

-Lastly, what depth of feelings beyond friendship is Harry suppressing, exactly? Whilst others may say there is no romance or tension between Harry and Hermione, I certainly can't buy that there is nothing between them beyond friendship, and for me it was most obvious on Harry's side after even the initial read of OoP. I don't see 'romance' associated in the usual sense. Full-on love, more like. Thankfully, my fellow shipmates have long since shown me convincing potential evidence of Hermione's more subtle affection, as I initially feared a letdown for Harry that he can scarely afford as the deaths pile up.

To my thinking, it's the unconscious and unexamined evidence of suppressed emotion that argue most strongly for Harry's regard, as he hides the implications [whatever they may be] from himself as well as others. Why bother if it means nothing? Obviously..err...because it means something...LOL! Harry dwells on Hermione start-to-end in OoP, whether concerned with her regard for him, with her safety, with the mundane details of what she's doing and where she's at, in his dreams, or inside in waking mind, where she speaks to him as his conscience. IMO Harry was in some kind of unexamined state if not borderline denial by OoP's end. If the death of Sirius and Hermione's near death have not totally shut Harry down emotionally, Harry's feelings will be a huge factor. That is, if Harry loves someone [Hermione, my guess;)], he will be drawn to the light if he seeks to give and receive love but for certain can only be drawn further to the darkness if he consciously rejects the love he craves.

Commentez-vous, anyone?
Cheers!

:welcome: xray. If you stick around long enough you'll find that this debate can get a little heated but it's all good.

Great post evaluna!


But subconsciously Harry's showing no real interest in Hermione either. I mean, if we were to talk about adjectives, words used to describe people, you'll notice that adjectives used to describe Hermione aren't that very flattering whereas adjectives used to describe Cho, Ginny, Parvati, Fleur, etc. are. I mean, this may sound shallow and all, but I do want Harry to have a girlfriend that he is somewhat physically attracted to. As of yet he's not physically attracted to Hermione, that may change but I'm not counting on it.


Harry is physically attracted to Hermione and there are instances in canon when this is true. These are two snippets from GoF and OOTP where Harry does make it known he is physically attracted to her:

GOF: p360 The Yule Ball

His eyes fell instead on the girl next to Krum. His jaw dropped.
It was Hermione.
But she didn't look like Hermione at all. She had something with her hair; it was no longer bushy, but sleek and shiny, and twisted up into an elegant knot at the back of her head. She was wearing robes made of floaty, periwinkle-blue material, and she was holding herself differently, somehow - or maybe it was merely the absence of the twenty or so books she usually had slung over her back. She was also smiling - rather nervously, it was true - but the reduction in the size of her front teeth was more noticeble now than ever. Harry couldn't understand how he hadn't spotted it before


OOTP

And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am, too,' Hermione added as an afterthought.

'But I don't think you're ugly,' said Harry, bemused.

Both are instances in which Harry does find Hermione physically attractive. Also Harry does find Cho, Parvati and Fluer attractive as well by the words he uses - pretty, very pretty etc. - but where in the text does it say or imply Harry finds Ginny attractive? Also the quotes I have given show that Harry does find Hermione attractive, is there any text evidence to show Ron is also physically attracted to Hermione as well?

As for the subconcious thing where you say Harry does not show clear interest in Hermione on a subconcious level. That is true. The significant thing is that Hermione is in his subconcious a lot and this has been growing over the books. He even states it in the text that part of his brain sounded like Hermione and by that this is where more of the base/foundation that JKR has for a H/Hr pairing. If there was more of Ginny in Harry's subconscious than that of Hermione I'd prob. be on a different ship, but thats how JKR wrote it.

What also I found interesting and I think Turambar pointed this out before is the Grawp chapter in OOTP. The number of times JKR writes a sentence, passage as 'Harry and Hermione' is quite a lot, more than thats needed and certainly looks suspicious.

Here, we know for sure that Ron fancies Hermione. I mean... c'mon It's pretty clear. Now, what's not clear is Hermione's feelings about neither Ron or Harry. She's become really important to Harry, and I think that, although he hasn't realized (Which means we don't know either, because all is from Harry's POV), he might later find out that he likes her too.

Some of you say that would be a problem, because how can it be both of them boys, etc. And I say, well, we get many hints about how Ron and Harry are becoming kind of rivals in his fifth year: Harry is jealous because Ron's prefect, and then those snide Malfoy's comments on how Ron finally beat Harry at something.

There's also the fact that Ron doesn't say anything clear. Perfume & jealousy aren't enough for a girl to get the "I like you" message.

My guess is that maybe (and only maybe) Harry will later see Hermione as a possibility, but then will be Ron coming clear and Hermione, I think, will end up with Ron. Why? well, In Ootp there are various references as how Ron & Hermione resemble Ron's parents (Hermione acting like Ron's mother, them fighting sounding like Mr. & Mrs. Weasley, etc.), moreover Hermione says to Harry something by the lines of "you're worse than Ron" and when Ron shows up she says something like "Well, not worse than him", and she's making reference to the fact that Harry is clueless about Cho Chang's feelings, hence the latest remark making posible reference to Ron being clueless about her own feelings toward him.

I also think that Luna Lovegood has come to make it a strong Ron & Hermione. I mean, the girl probably has a crush on him....

On the other hand, the encouraging kiss she gives to Ron could certainly mean nothing more than that, because she has kissed Harry before at the train station. ["She did something she hadn't done ever before..." -quote might be wrong: I read it in spanish :P]. But the kiss definetely showed up Ron's true colors.

Something else, by the way: I think Harry is way to busy to care for girls right at the end of Ootp. So if he's gonna get involved in a romantic relationship, I think he won't realize. We've gotta remember that people's feelings are really complicated, they're not like in fairytales where everything is clear at sight. I think there will be a total confussion moment and a definite realization moment.... I don't think making Ginny a quidditch player is just because. Although I don't like it (It's too cheesy for my taste), there's a big chance Harry ends up with Ginny. Even when My logic tells me all the above, I like H/Hr best.

Ohh... I seriously thin Neville has a crush on Ginny too.

:welcome: xray. If you stick around long enough you'll find that this debate can get a little heated but it's all good.

Understate much? :lol:

Some of you say that would be a problem, because how can it be both of them boys, etc. And I say, well, we get many hints about how Ron and Harry are becoming kind of rivals in his fifth year: Harry is jealous because Ron's prefect, and then those snide Malfoy's comments on how Ron finally beat Harry at something.


Concerning the jealously that Harry had over Ron's badge, yes he was jealous at first, but after a short time thinking it through he got over it. Otherwise I don't see much jealously on Harry's side at all. Ron seems to have gotten over his jealously with Harry since GoF though, well most if not all, of it.


There's also the fact that Ron doesn't say anything clear. Perfume & jealousy aren't enough for a girl to get the "I like you" message.


The point about this that though it may not be enough for a girl, this girl is Hermione and considering how well she put Cho's emotions together and everything else that seemed up be right somehow, I think Hermione would of recognised this a while ago. Otherwise she wouldn't be saying "you're worse than Ron" further down in your post.


My guess is that maybe (and only maybe) Harry will later see Hermione as a possibility, but then will be Ron coming clear and Hermione, I think, will end up with Ron. Why? well, In Ootp there are various references as how Ron & Hermione resemble Ron's parents (Hermione acting like Ron's mother, them fighting sounding like Mr. & Mrs. Weasley, etc.), moreover Hermione says to Harry something by the lines of "you're worse than Ron" and when Ron shows up she says something like "Well, not worse than him", and she's making reference to the fact that Harry is clueless about Cho Chang's feelings, hence the latest remark making posible reference to Ron being clueless about her own feelings toward him.


Thats the only reference to Ron's parents in OOTP isn't it? where Harry sees Ron and Hermione's bickering like that. It is feasible to parallel the characters, but this could be just an instance where he sees the parallel, doesn't mean he sees the parallel to other attributes of Molly and Arthur's marriage. Plus the parallel Harry sees is that of fighting, is that a good thing?

As for the quote by Hermione where he says to him "you're worse than Ron" and then changes her mind, I never thought of it as that interpretation but it seems valid. I interpreted as when Harry does not think Hermione is ugly, it was rather Hermione thinking Harry is slower than Ron on the uptake (GOF) that she is a girl, but then changes her mind because how he answered it, he actually acknowledges to her that he knows she is a girl. That make sense?


I also think that Luna Lovegood has come to make it a strong Ron & Hermione. I mean, the girl probably has a crush on him....


The cat claws would be out between Luna and Hermione if this happened. Luna is definately anti-Hermione and vice versa.


On the other hand, the encouraging kiss she gives to Ron could certainly mean nothing more than that, because she has kissed Harry before at the train station. ["She did something she hadn't done ever before..." -quote might be wrong: I read it in spanish :P]. But the kiss definetely showed up Ron's true colors.


Agree completely with that. Both are kisses of support.


Something else, by the way: I think Harry is way to busy to care for girls right at the end of Ootp. So if he's gonna get involved in a romantic relationship, I think he won't realize. We've gotta remember that people's feelings are really complicated, they're not like in fairytales where everything is clear at sight. I think there will be a total confussion moment and a definite realization moment.... I don't think making Ginny a quidditch player is just because. Although I don't like it (It's too cheesy for my taste), there's a big chance Harry ends up with Ginny. Even when My logic tells me all the above, I like H/Hr best.


I think Harry is not busy at all to care for girls especially at the end of OOTP. Considering all the things that Harry had to endured against him in OOTP, he still managed a relationship with Cho - though it was short - and by the end of OOTP he has basically all the burdens placed off him and the wizarding world believes him again. Even though he has the burden of Voldemort, he will handle that much better than that of what he went through in OOTP.

:clap: Good stuff Evaluna, Vash

Posted by Prongs Sr:
If you look at the overall plot status and characters and how they have an impact on future romance, I believe you have to consider Ron and Ginny into the mixture.

JKR has written Ron as a character who does have romantic feelings for Hermione; and there is evidence that Hermione returns Rons feelings. Evidence in book 5 included the gift of perfume, his continuing jealousy over Victor, and his non-platonic reaction to Hermione's kiss. Before any H/Hr relationship is possible, this is one storyline that will have to be resolved. So, the question remains: would JKR write a love triangle storyline or will JKR leave Ron's and Hermione's feelings as unresolved.


I'm unsure about the extent of Ron's feelings for Hermione. When I first read GOF my reaction to the Yule Brawl was that Ron was being possessive and jealous considering the trio had been a tight unit for three years previous and a famous quidditch player Ron hero-worshipped was interested in Ron's female friend. There was also his reaction to Fleur and his general enjoyment of attention including from Padma after the second task. I gradually became convinced after reading lots of posts here that Ron did have a crush on Hermione. Yet why did JKR write Ron's reaction to news of Ginny's boyfriends in OOTP as being so similar and Hermione and Ginny appearing to recognise it as such? That appears to point again to possessiveness. I also think it's interesting that as soon as he gains a bit of the spotlight he seems to want to gain attention from people outside the trio: as I mentioned after the second task, in the common room after the quidditch game in OOTP, fluffing his hair by the tree.
I think Hermione values Ron as a friend but I think it's strange that she hasn't made him aware of her feelings by now if she wants a closer relationship with him. A couple of things we learn about Hermione in OOTP is that she is perceptive about relationships and doesn't mind discussing them with the boys. She could easily have steered a conversation around to in some way hint to Ron she's interested in him if she was.
I think there is potential conflict looming if JKR wants to write it. Harry wasn't too happy about Ron and Hermione spending time together without him in the beginning of OOTP was he? As you say Ron showed flashes of jealousy over Krum, but also I'd submit over Harry and the 'how do you know' comment over Harry's kissing abilities. If we look at Hermione's behaviour over Cho, she really followed Harry's relationship with the girl very closely and virtually researched Cho like she would an essay topic. Ginny, interestingly, didn't show signs of jealousy over Cho and Hermione, at least, maintains that Ginny has given up on Harry. Is she keeping tabs on Ginny too? I think Hermione is protective of her place as Harry's friend, realises he needs her and is extremely determined to do her best for him. I can't believe she would react well to Harry suddenly becoming hugely interested in someone else and spending a lot of time away from her.


JKR has written Ginny as a character with unresolved feelings for Harry. Her personality and interests have been developed as compatible to Harry's. Why does JKR continue to emphasize Ginny's love interests (Harry, Michael, Dean?). Why did JKR remind viewers of Ginny's crush in both books 3 and 4, when it is completely irrelevent to the plot. If Ginny is not to be Harry's love interest, why the continuing emphasis on Ginny's romantic feelings?


How do we know she has unresolved feelings for Harry? We are told she has given up on Harry. Her initial crush was based on what she had heard of him rather than knowledge of the boy himself. On her personality and interests you could say the same for Cho - brave, intelligent enough, a quidditch player - and that didn't work out. Her characteristics don't seem exceptional for Gryffindors - Parvati and Dean for instance have spoken up in class against Umbridge and Snape, Parvati defended Neville to Draco in PS. And I don't see any signs of Harry being attracted to her. There are other possible reasons for Ginny's role: she could be a future death; JKR may have designed Ron and Ginny's crushes to have them floating around as possibilities so that readers do not focus on H/Hr too much since the author would not want to make the storyline obvious; Ginny's elevation coincides with the last year of the twins so she could be meant to fill the gap; she could be intended for Neville, there is a bit of foreshadowing for that.


Also regarding a potential disagreement with Hermione and Ginny over Harry's safety. Harry is getting older and is almost an adult. He doesn't need a babysitter, but needs a love interest that will treat him as an equal. Hermione doesn't fit this description, at this point in time, as the nagging, irritating and bossing pattern has continued throughout the books. Hermione is also Ginny's best friend. When H/G get together, there will be no conflict between the two of them.


Hermione does treat him as an equal, they are equals. Ginny is not Harry's equal. Clearly in OOTP Ginny is ready to take orders. When she offers Harry the chocolate, Ginny is incapable of coming up with any ideas of her own to help Harry apart from offering to go to the twins to see if THEY can think of something. Were's the initiative? She is unquestioning and unthinking in the chocolate scene. She gives no thought to the possible consequences. All she wants to do is help Harry achieve what he wants to do, regardless of how mad that is. JKR even writes when they arrive at the MOM that Ron and Ginny walk in the phonebooth "obediently." Harry does not need that in a partner. He needs someone who is strong enough for him to be able to lean on at times and whose advice he can trust. Remember the right vs easy theme? Hermione is the one who is right.
Look at the scene where Harry and Hermione are debating what to do about Sirius: it's almost like the two parents discussing with the kids hanging around in the background. Ginny agrees to help without knowing what it's about. She, Ron and Luna take orders from Hermione as Hermione works out a plan to get into Umbridge's office. Imagine the roles were reversed and it was Harry debating with Ginny what to do with Ron, Hermione and Luna listening on. It just doesn't work does it? For a start there wouldn't be a debate, they'd be discussing how to fly to the MOM. Would Ginny be able to offer any advice or alternative views? And would Hermione be content to keep quiet in the background if she disagreed with what was happening? There's plenty of potential for disagreement between Hermione and Ginny over Harry, it hasn't happened yet because Ginny's relationship with Harry is on a much lower level than Hermione's.

Great Post evaluna, Turambar and v@sh. :clap:

Now I did again think, a lot think about Harry. First its naturelly for me If I focused at Harry and than look around. Its not about Ron or Hermione its about Harry. And as such book I see that Harry is in OotP very much different to Hermione as in GoF. I see GoF as the reason why H/Hr is now very much possible. Before GoF they weren't used to each other alone but in GoF there was it practicular in a crisis in the trio so they have to be alone together.

In GoF or before Harry didn't go to her for help it was always Ron but in OotP this change. We have moments where he sit at her side and ask her, starts to talk with her. He is now the one who search her company. Before that Harry did this always with Ron. Thats why it didn't really bother him to avoid her six weeks in PoA. He didn't needed her company how he needed Ron. He was always the first person for Harry but this changed in and after GoF.
Harry can't anymore avoid Hermione more as a day though she annoy him more than ever. Never before was he so much annoyed that he even did think it but still he couldn't avoid her not willing avoid her. He need now her company, that she is there for him.

He do even speak different to her now. Its not only if he need. He do search after it to speak to her. He is now more honest than ever thats why we hear things like: "But I don't think you're ugly." or "You're good in feelings but not in matter of Quiditch".
He is even able to make Jokes just be honest in the past he didn't make many but here in this year whats probably the worst of all he is there and makes jokes and Hermione does even laugh. Like the one in the chapter Grawp. We see Hermione is scary and can't believe what she see. That say not the best moment to make jokes but he does and who would expect she think its funny?
We don't have this before not if they alone.
In GoF if Harry did have a relationship with a girl I doubt he did ask Hermione like in OotP he did rather go to Ron.
Here in OotP he does speak open about his feelings in this matter and tells her open that he don't know why Cho did react like that. We don't have this before. Not such a conversation between Harry and Hermione. Thats why we don't hear much from Ron.
It did change from GoF to OotP the relationship between Harry and Hermione.
Before that was it more that Hermione did speak the most part now is it that both speak with each other. Thats even the reason why we don't read so many Ron and Hermione conversation or rather bickering (I'm speaking now till Harry is annoyed about this bickering). Because we have a Harry who want to speak with Hermione.
Its clear it did change like before I believe many H/Hr did predict that Hermione is now on one step with Ron or even more.
Now about the point "Bickering between Ron and Hermione annoys him" Thats interesting because Harry knows them like that since 4 years but suddenly its annoys him. Why? Thats a point what did bothering me since I did read OotP. After I did think about the changes between Harry and Hermione its interest that after this change Harry find this bickering between Ron and Hermione annoyed. Its interesting for that this comes now and not in GoF where it was really annoying.
There are two possible why? 1) Its annoyed him always 2) Only after GoF.
I rather think it was before more entertainment for him that they bickered but after GoF as the relastionship between Harry and Hermione changed dos annoy him if they bicker.
This implied that bickering means its focused between Ron and Hermione so that Harry is left out. He can only watch nothing more. Hermiones attention is focused at Ron and not Harry in such moments. But Harry think its annoying if Hermione is forced to have her attention to Ron. Now did this change. Harrys opinion about Hermione did grow a lot. He was impressed by her in GoF through and through because she did stand by him and didn't even moan as she was the victim. This did a great deal for Harry to see her different.
There lies even why Harry wasn't jealousy in GoF about Krum because her attention was never away from Harry. Though she was with Krum, Harry did never as if her attention is away from him. Since the beginning of they friendship Harry was used to this bickering between Ron and Hermione and it didn't bother him. But now. Now he want her attention. He is used to it and don't want less attention from her.
At times he avoid her in OotP, no doubt. But its always at times if he is in trouble, if he does think that its wrong what he did.

See Harry had his time with Ron in PS/SS to learn him to know alone without any other people around. In GoF Harry get after 3 years of friendship time to getting know Hermione alone. This did a very great deal why H/Hr is now more possible as before. Because we know on PS/SS till POA they friendship was already deep and strong but through GoF it did grow to something more. That more that Ron isn't anymore the first choice of Harry where He go for help though he is still his best friend.

Not only R/Hr starts to be possible in GoF its H/Hr too. I will come later to the point back why H/Hr have to look in canon for unreasonable like its too absurt to believe in it. So that Harry himself has to deny it that often and I will look at the point that no one in canon think off R/Hr as possible.

So its look like that for the people in canon is it H/Hr for the reader is it R/Hr more obvious. Now The reader does slightly groan if Cho or Krum or Rita do say H/Hr because they are "very platonic friends" for the reader (not for H/Hr reader). But R/Hr is after only one scene in GoF possible for the reader or obvious.

EDIT: Guess what? I did watch this famous interview with JKR. You know this one where so many say its again H/Hr as Kathy asked "Any snogging with Hermione?"
Now my view and I'm really smiling now because its seems you didn't saw what kind of mimic she did as Kathy started to stutter and to talk about "what snogging mean". Its really funny because she looked relifed. That Kathy didn't ask more. See as JKR said H/Hr do you think so? It was loud and clear but R/Hr and more tension I could barely hear her voice. This face what she had as said it was like "Looks like she buy it!"
About this grimace which JKR made as she said "Hermione" Its first she said much louder as the other time and before Kathy asked JKRs face looked just the same only seconds before like that. If you think this proofs R/Hr than you are fairely wrong. She plays really good with this people. She need only to look like that and bang the interviewer starts to stutter and search after another topic. She know how she can avoid such question. After 5 years she know how she has to do it very well.

Of course there isn't indication in Harry's conscious mind that he has any romantic feelings towards Hermione at that point. Just because he does not have any in OOTP or the previous 4 books does not mean he can change, or that he change his mind about Ginny either.

I dunno why so many R/Hr's or H/G interpret some of the postings by H/Hr like they're already together. They clearly aern't together, all the postings are showing the base in which JKR can build on a relationship and there are many instances in how JKR has built that up throughout the books.

A quick question for R/Hr and H/G's, you's have already asked what us H/Hr's shipper would do if JKR wrote Harry with someone else or no-one but Would you believe if H/Hr did happen in canon at the end of Hogwarts and after into further life if JKR writes an epilogue? Or will you still believe it as R/Hr and/or H/G even if JKR says so that it is H/Hr and gives valid reasons and answers?

Sometimes I think personal preference comes into these debates a lot, I've seen ones where people think Ron deserves Hermione because Harry has everything, and Ron should at least get Hermione. I've just chosen one example here, but using that as an argument in preference of ships is ridiculous I reckon. It not only treats Hermione as some prize (which women are clearly not IMO) but it also makes Ron's character wrong. I'm not saying this of all R/Hr's, some have good explainations but some of the argument's I've seen on other forums just seem way left-field and destroys some of the essence of the characters that JKR has created.

Just one more question before I go into lurker mode again which is directed at everyone. Do you think IF JKR pairs one main pair up, then the other characters will also be paired up? e.g. H/Hr, R/L, N,G or R/Hr, H/G. The reason I ask this is because it seems a little too perfect and set - much like the OBHWF and personally I don't like things being so perfect.

But all that there is too it is a great FRIENSHIP that’s all. The same friendship that Ron and Hermione have. But the difference is that I clearly see that R/Hr have romantic feelings between each other.

I already answer that question a few pages back when I made that same question.

I don’t believe that up until book 5 H/Hr have romantic feelings and after book 5. I don’t think they every will. H/Hr are great platonic friends. Changing that will be ruining their friendship. JKR made it clear for me with her writing and her words that H/Hr are platonic friends. I have no reason to doubt her and I’m not planning too.

I like happy endings and I like OBHWF just because the books are dark it doesn’t mean that the ending has to be one huge mess and one unhappy one. At the end of every book JKR ties up the loose ends that she can with a great big bow and hand it to us. Why can’t she do the same with the final, final ending? This is literature not real life, as much as JKR tries to resemble real life there are still some aspects that clearly scream out that this is still a book. If I wanted to read about Unrequited love and family mess and problems not resolved. I can open the Dear Anne column in the paper everyday. I like literature on a different level. Emma is neatly bow on top ending and Emma is one novel that even H/Hr’s like (I personally didn’t but that’s another story). I think (I haven’t finished so feel free to correct me) Pride and Prejudice is another one, many novels have neatly bow on top endings and most people like it. My point is that most literature ties up loose ends and leaves everything neatly put and happy. I believe that this is one of the reasons why JKR will stop at 7. Not because Harry will die but because she feels that her ending is perfect and making it into a sequal will ruin the magic of the first seven. If that would be the case. I have to agree with her on that.



How do we know she has unresolved feelings for Harry? We are told she has given up on Harry. Her initial crush was based on what she had heard of him rather than knowledge of the boy himself. On her personality and interests you could say the same for Cho - brave, intelligent enough, a quidditch player - and that didn't work out. Her characteristics don't seem exceptional for Gryffindors - Parvati and Dean for instance have spoken up in class against Umbridge and Snape, Parvati defended Neville to Draco in PS. And I don't see any signs of Harry being attracted to her. There are other possible reasons for Ginny's role: she could be a future death; JKR may have designed Ron and Ginny's crushes to have them floating around as possibilities so that readers do not focus on H/Hr too much since the author would not want to make the storyline obvious; Ginny's elevation coincides with the last year of the twins so she could be meant to fill the gap; she could be intended for Neville, there is a bit of foreshadowing for that.

Once again this is literature. JKR has to tie up her loose ends. Having too character have unrequited love doesn’t make any sense on the purpose of making it look like real life. That seems like a person who doesn’t know what they are writing. There is also the possibility that she is distracting the readers with H/Hr ‘closeness’ while her real pairings are H/G and R/Hr. :p

Hermione does treat him as an equal, they are equals. Ginny is not Harry's equal. Clearly in OOTP Ginny is ready to take orders. When she offers Harry the chocolate, Ginny is incapable of coming up with any ideas of her own to help Harry apart from offering to go to the twins to see if THEY can think of something. Were's the initiative? She is unquestioning and unthinking in the chocolate scene. She gives no thought to the possible consequences. All she wants to do is help Harry achieve what he wants to do, regardless of how mad that is. JKR even writes when they arrive at the MOM that Ron and Ginny walk in the phonebooth "obediently." Harry does not need that in a partner. He needs someone who is strong enough for him to be able to lean on at times and whose advice he can trust. Remember the right vs easy theme? Hermione is the one who is right.
Look at the scene where Harry and Hermione are debating what to do about Sirius: it's almost like the two parents discussing with the kids hanging around in the background. Ginny agrees to help without knowing what it's about. She, Ron and Luna take orders from Hermione as Hermione works out a plan to get into Umbridge's office. Imagine the roles were reversed and it was Harry debating with Ginny what to do with Ron, Hermione and Luna listening on. It just doesn't work does it? For a start there wouldn't be a debate, they'd be discussing how to fly to the MOM. Would Ginny be able to offer any advice or alternative views? And would Hermione be content to keep quiet in the background if she disagreed with what was happening? There's plenty of potential for disagreement between Hermione and Ginny over Harry, it hasn't happened yet because Ginny's relationship with Harry is on a much lower level than Hermione's.

I disagree Hermione treats Harry like a child. She orders him, bosses, screamed and confronted Harry like a mother to a child. Harry even avoids Hermione sometimes like a child to his parents. Harry had one mother and she died. She doesn’t need another one. I don’t want that for either Hermione or Harry, it isn’t fair on my point of view. Harry needs a partner who respects his opinions and considers him capable of managing his affairs. That’s what Ron, Luna, Neville and Ginny do, they trust Harry’s judgement.

I disagree that Hermione is the right path, she is the easy one. All Harry has to do is sit and let Hermione decides for him what he should and shouldn’t do. Harry needs to put his mind to work and be on his own. Make his choices, right or wrong. It’s one of the reasons that JKR said that Dumbledore had to step back from Harry. He was protecting him too much. Telling him what to do wasn’t going to help him. It was going to harm him. Harry needed to learn to make his own decisions, not have someone tell him what to do.

Guess what? I did watch this famous interview with JKR. You know this one where so many say its again H/Hr as Kathy asked "Any snogging with Hermione?"
Now my view and I'm really smiling now because its seems you didn't saw what kind of mimic she did as Kathy started to stutter and to talk about "what snogging mean". Its really funny because she looked relifed. That Kathy didn't ask more. See as JKR said H/Hr do you think so? It was loud and clear but R/Hr and more tension I could barely hear her voice. This face what she had as said it was like "Looks like she buy it!"
About this grimace which JKR made as she said "Hermione" Its first she said much louder as the other time and before Kathy asked JKRs face looked just the same only seconds before like that. If you think this proofs R/Hr than you are fairely wrong. She plays really good with this people. She need only to look like that and bang the interviewer starts to stutter and search after another topic. She know how she can avoid such question. After 5 years she know how she has to do it very well.

I have that interview taped in fact I taped it just the other day for a friend. I have no idea where did you get that she was hiding a grimace because her discousted face said it all. Also wouldn’t the fact that she said loud and clear meant that she wants to make it loud and clear that they are not suited.

Gily Ann

I have no idea where did you get that she was hiding a grimace because her discousted face said it all. Also wouldn’t the fact that she said loud and clear meant that she wants to make it loud and clear that they are not suited.

The point is you want it that it is discousted but in fact it isn't. She say Hermiones name nothing more what let her face look like that. If you say Hermiones name like that to make a point than its looks like that.
She didn't say they don't suit she did ask if Kathy think so? To say this question loud enough so Kathy won't ask further what you could clearly see at Kathys reaction to this. She started to stutter and losing very much the track and that was the only reason for that. JKR didn't spoil which pairing is going to happen, she just spoil what after her thinking the reader should expect right now. But like we all saw in OotP it didn't happen thats like tell a child "I think that Santa Claus will bring you a teddybear!" and in reality at christmas it gets a doll. The surprise is much higher and even the joy by some reader.

She didn't say they don't suit she did ask if Kathy think so? To say this question loud enough so Kathy won't ask further what you could clearly see at Kathys reaction to this. She started to stutter and losing very much the track and that was the only reason for that. JKR didn't spoil which pairing is going to happen, she just spoil what after her thinking the reader should expect right now. But like we all saw in OotP it didn't happen thats like tell a child "I think that Santa Claus will bring you a teddybear!" and in reality at christmas it gets a doll. The surprise is much higher and even the joy by some reader

In regards to the interview, Katie asks her is there is any snogging between Hermione and Harry; there is no delay on her reaction, her face just twists in disgust and she looks at Katie like she is crazy. It is almost a look like, "haven't you read the books?"

JKR has been denying H/Hr for a long time now, "d'ya really think their suited?", "Harry and Hermione are very platonic friends", "Ron and Hermione, that's where the tension is".

The fact that JKR is simply denying H/Hr without hesitation simply means that she does not think the H/Hr are going to happen, and as she is the author, I'm going to take her word on it. JKR obviously isn't worried about spoiling the pairing of H/Hr, because there seems to be no H/Hr in her mind.

JKR is doing an excellent job of dismissing H/Hr in Book 5, as well, especially during the Cho debacle. She keeps describing her voice when talking to Harry about Cho, as businesslike. At one point, she seems more worried about Harry hurting Cho's feelings than Harry's feelings. Hermione seems to like Cho and shows no hint of jealousy whatsoever. If JKR is writing H/hr, she is doing an extremely poor job of it.

At hands of this interview I see what people want to hear and to understand. No doubt I'm not different to this but for me is clear she don't answer any question about H/Hr. Not in the slightest and that is suspicious for me. She don't do it by R/Hr and I'm fine with it that she say Ron has something for Hermione. But this don't say it will be H/Hr.
Si I focuse mainly at canon and like I said is a very huge change in the relationship between Harry and Hermione. Now is it that this two have more conversation, do talk, argue and debatte with eachother. Ron and Hermione scene aren't that much in OotP.
This say as JKR said R/Hr has more tension its on hands of book1 till 4 because there is it focused at they bickering and they have more screenplay as a H/Hr talking to each other.

Its JKR's wanting that the reader think of R/Hr as obvious but the characters, all characters in canon don't buy it.
This say since GoF we don't have any quote from canon by a subcharacter like Cho or Krum which questioned R/Hr. Its simple not exist that create by the reader by all this denying a slightly disbelieving of H/Hr. This is intentioned by JKR that the reader don't buy it that H/Hr is very much possible though as more and more this denying is in canon as more this disbeliving chance into suspicious feeling if its after all possible. Thats a very popular technique to make the reader unsure about his obvious thinking of R/Hr.

It make the reader unsure what he can expect from the future books and what not. Because after GoF everybody did expect that R/Hr gonna be happen in OotP but it didn't. This say we can't be sure of anything not if Hermione likes Ron or even if Ron likes Hermione. What we know is that Cho was jealous about Hermione though this time there wasn't any article which lead to this thinking. She didn't act before like that only after Harry did come closer to Cho.
We starts to wonder do this people know more as we do? But we get at the same time a kiss on the cheek for Ron and this very unusual perfum.
By now JKR's plan did work. We don't know anything. We don't know who Hermione likes. We don't know who will be the next love interest for Harry. We don't know if Ron's feelings for Hermione which we interpret like that still exist.
Right at time for the last two books we are pretty without a clue.
At least with Harry we had in the past two books an idea who he fancy. Harry did get his crush. He fancied Cho and she did return this feelings in OotP back.
With Ron doesn't need this be the same. Maybe this will be a Weasley clue that they don't get the one who they want.

Its interesting that Ron is only interest in Hermione if somebody else shows interests this say alote about his feeling. They are only there if Krum is Hermiones date in GoF and in OotP mentioned.

Hi everyone, hope you all had a great weekend.

I have never seen the Katie Couric interview so I can't even guess as to whether JKR was grimacing, hiding something or anything. But I would say that if I was writing a HUGE series like HP I wouldn't be giving away plot lines for future books. I would say something truthful but yet open ended.

As far as Ginny and Ron. Those two characters are actually my favorites and I want them to live happily ever after but I don't know if it will happen with either Harry or Hermione.

My question is this.....lets say for arguments sake that Ron is in love with Hermione and Ginny still crushes on Harry what is going to be their reaction if H/Hr happens. Are they going to be so hurt that they end up doing something that hurts the Order and/or Harry. Will they sacrifice themselves because they can never have the love of their life (a bit melodramatic, I know)? What does everyone picture happening? I would like to hear the R/Hr and H/G shippers too because no ship is set in stone as of this time.

Cheers

Buttercup

No problem I give you a link Buttercup and everybody else so you can watch it by yourself: Interview (http://www.sugarquill.net/goodshiprh/goodshipclip.mov)

As for the question I suppose they find someone who love them back. Someone who take them as the number one and not just ignore them thats what both deserve IMO. Someone who love them for what they are.

FP...you are so sweet, thank you, now I can see for myself what all the excitement is for.

Cheers

Buttercup

Great Post FP, evaluna, Turambar, nodd and v@sh. And everyone else of course! :clap:

<snip>
At times he avoid her in OotP, no doubt. But its always at times if he is in trouble, if he does think that its wrong what he did.

EXACTLY! That's what I've been thinking. Harry is only avoiding Hermione because he knows what he is doing is wrong and he doesn't want Hermione to tell him, so he prefers to keep things from her AND Ron.

EDIT: Yo! What's up with the quotes now?! It's nice, but isn't it going to take up space? :whistle:

I reallly support the couples Harry and Ginny! In book five at the end althoug Ginny said something about dating withone else, she look Harry in a funny way! but... I don't think this couple'll be set until the last book.
And the other couple'd be Hermione and Ron.... but I think something'll happen with Luna, Luna loves Ron, so Hermione'll have a kind of rival... It'll be a fight for Ronnie... but Hermy'll win his heart...
And I hope Cho became a old maid! She is so unbearable...

Its interesting that Ron is only interest in Hermione if somebody else shows interests this say alote about his feeling. They are only there if Krum is Hermiones date in GoF and in OotP mentioned.

I have a very simple explanation for Ron's feelings, it is called jealousy! ;) Also, he does get jealous for an instant moment when Hermione tells Harry he's not a bad kisser. Ron does have feelings for Hermione and JKR has to resolve this plot storyline, if H/Hr are going to get together. I feel it's a matter of time before R/Hr get together, even Harry is seeing them as a couple by his comparing R/Hr to Arthur and Molly.

With Ron doesn't need this be the same. Maybe this will be a Weasley clue that they don't get the one who they want

FP: First you say that Ron is only interested in Hermione if somebody else wants her; then you say that maybe this is JKR's way of showing that Ron and Ginny (I assume), will not get what they want? Also, what plot purpose would it serve to show the Weasley's that they can't get what they want? These books are not romance novels and I was under the impression, from past posts on your part, that the role of Ron and Ginny was insignificant in these books.

EXACTLY! That's what I've been thinking. Harry is only avoiding Hermione because he knows what he is doing is wrong and he doesn't want Hermione to tell him, so he prefers to keep things from her AND Ron.

He's avoiding her because he can't stand it when she continues on nagging, bossing, hissing like sounds, talking too much. Now, I agree that she does give good advice to him, but she certainly goes about it in the wrong manner. I would like to think that Harry's behavior pattern of ignoring and lying to Hermione was for book 5 only, but unfortunately, this has been a constant pattern of their relationship since book 3.

Is this negative behavior pattern conducive to a romantic relationship? Well, when Harry needed someone to talk to about the pensieve scene, he felt he couldn't confide in Hermione and Ron, but he readily responds to Ginny, who instead of being confrontational has a softer and more respectful approach, which works a lot better.

Originally posted by Gily Ann:

I disagree Hermione treats Harry like a child. She orders him, bosses, screamed and confronted Harry like a mother to a child. Harry even avoids Hermione sometimes like a child to his parents. Harry had one mother and she died. She doesn’t need another one. I don’t want that for either Hermione or Harry, it isn’t fair on my point of view. Harry needs a partner who respects his opinions and considers him capable of managing his affairs. That’s what Ron, Luna, Neville and Ginny do, they trust Harry’s judgement. .

:tu: Well said, Gily Ann.

I disagree Hermione treats Harry like a child. She orders him, bosses, screamed and confronted Harry like a mother to a child. Harry even avoids Hermione sometimes like a child to his parents
:huh: This two sentence is incorrect, right? It does not make sene...I guess you want to say "I agree Hermione treats Harry like a child."

In response to you quote:
Hermione treat everyone this way. It is her way to show she care. She do not only order, boss, scream at Harry but everyone else. It is only because Harry is the narrator and he is in the biggest trouble(hunted by others, anyone?), that create a image that Hermione only treat Harry like a child.

There are just as many evident show that Hermione is treating Ron as a Kid. Why do this does not count against R/Hr? I am very very confuse by your double standard(may be not double standard but I just can not see it? :huh: ?)

If you want, you can see Hermione try to boss Hagraid, too. Ever she try her best to control her ego.

evaluna

Commentez-vous, anyone?
Mais oui, bien sur.

I'll skip over the first three quarters or so of your post. No much of contention in there per se. Although I am sure that there is a clear message to be had, I'm not sure that JK is thinking quite as loftily as that. Nevertheless...

-What of Harry's best friends? See the last sentence in no. 5, above, and also noddwyd's and Turambar's post on this re: love, including the platonic or universal love of friends and the deeper love of one.
'The deeper love of one'. 'The one', I assume to be Hermione. The implication is that this one type of love will be the key rests on the following assumptions.

That a jigsaw puzzle exists, from which the absence of this type of love will curtail Harry in his quest;
That it alone is of more value to Harry than other types of love;

Each of which are in themselves arguable points as the clear suggestion from Dumbledore is that Harry already posesses the requisite 'power of love'.

Harry's friends will certainly need to guide and support him with their love, and I think the love of his best friends will be critical in bringing Harry back to the light. However, [per inability to open the DoM mystery door], it's probably not sufficient to access the full measure of Harry's power/defeat Voldemort(fear, hatred)...
That rests on the assumption that 'love' is required to physically open the door. Such an assumption is at the fringes of prudent speculation. Dumbledore referred to the power of love as the weapon to defeat Voldemort. There is no suggestion that it is also the key to the door. He merely states that it is 'kept locked at all times'. To suggest that Harry is the only person in the world that has or will ever possess sufficient quantites of love in his heart to be able to open that door is a bit extreme. I mean, I know he's special but come on...

unless that common platonic love of friends becomes a truly platonic love of souls such as is possible between H/Hr, as this allows for a romantic aspect to the relationship as well, particularly if Harry &/or Hermione are already falling in love with one another [see no. 6, below]. This love of souls creates one from two esoterically, and would allow the strength of two united souls [one being Harry, potentially the most powerful of all wizards, who needs only to be truly loved and to truly give love to access the full measure of his power].
This rests on the assumption, even if all the previous criteria are met (none of which refer exclusively to Hermione), that Hermione is the only person with which he could find such love.

Lastly, what depth of feelings beyond friendship is Harry suppressing, exactly? Whilst others may say there is no romance or tension between Harry and Hermione, I certainly can't buy that there is nothing between them beyond friendship, and for me it was most obvious on Harry's side after even the initial read of OoP. I don't see 'romance' associated in the usual sense. Full-on love, more like. Thankfully, my fellow shipmates have long since shown me convincing potential evidence of Hermione's more subtle affection, as I initially feared a letdown for Harry that he can scarely afford as the deaths pile up.
This rests on the assumption that Hermione actually feels something for Harry. If we accept the numerous arguments by the H/Hr ship as to why Hermione would be good for Harry, we are still left with no credible ideas (no ideas at all, in fact) as to why Harry would be good for Hermione, who is after all 50% of the equation. Without addressing that side of the equation, Hermione is little more than a tool in Harry's armoury.

So whilst your ideas are in themselves very plausible and well written, evaluna, the concept as a whole rests on a number of assumptions. Unfortunately (and I'm sorry to be brutal, evaluna), it is only neccessary for one of those assumptions to be wrong and the whole theory falls. As things stand, any one of those assumptions, are highly questionable.

Comprendez-vous?

EDIT:

Amost forgot - Welcome to the thread xray, Van Fine & Gnomida

I have a very simple explanation for Ron's feelings, it is called jealousy!

Thats poor that Ron only react jealousy. What is with looking strange at her or looking always to her. What is with blushing any signs like that or just to over hear failures but he didn't do this. If he can only be jealousy then his feeling can't be deep. Even Harry get nervous as he did speak with Cho. Why not a Ron who does this about Hermione just to show he like her but what was? Nothing.

FP: First you say that Ron is only interested in Hermione if somebody else wants her; then you say that maybe this is JKR's way of showing that Ron and Ginny (I assume), will not get what they want? Also, what plot purpose would it serve to show the Weasley's that they can't get what they want? These books are not romance novels and I was under the impression, from past posts on your part, that the role of Ron and Ginny was insignificant in these books.

You're right about your impression of my view but to this comes my personal view of Ron as Harrys friend and what I wish for him. The other part is more my focus at Harry. See I have different views and not only one. What purpose of plot is this you ask? Its simple Ron for once moan he is poor and what he want is to be rich now thats what canon try to suggest Ron want Hermione. This scenario don't getting what you want is a great lesson for kids because thats live. You get what you deserve and thats different.

I disagree Hermione treats Harry like a child. She orders him, bosses, screamed and confronted Harry like a mother to a child. Harry even avoids Hermione sometimes like a child to his parents. Harry had one mother and she died. She doesn’t need another one. I don’t want that for either Hermione or Harry, it isn’t fair on my point of view. Harry needs a partner who respects his opinions and considers him capable of managing his affairs. That’s what Ron, Luna, Neville and Ginny do, they trust Harry’s judgement. .

This reminds me of an essay I shortly reread but anyway I disagree. Hermione bossy Harry not around its rather careing and she trust him enough to tell him the truth what DD for once not do. Some off you seems to forget in what a time Harry lives. Hermione react more like a girlfriend which Harry don't has thats why someone like Cho who was his girlfriend is jealousy about Hermione. Hermione cares about Harry a lot in a way what let you or rather me get suspicious and Harry know this since his very first year from her. Its annoys him at times but at others he is greatful like after Umbridge detention or at the beginning of his friendship with her. But thats pretty normal. I don't wanna know how much more Ron think Hermione is annoyed but I guess in this case its tension, eh?
Hermione lives constanty in fears to lose Harry thats why she is like that in OotP. There are reason for her doing.
For example in GoF she go with Harry who is under his invisible cloak into hogsmead. She do it though she don't like it. Thats the point she would do it anyway. We don't see this by Ron.
Harry has some power over Hermione if he want she did everything for him even she didn't like it to do it

EDIT:

harryandchopotter

Given that nobody here is going to answer the bolded parts of your comment in the affirmative, don't you think that it seems a rather pointless excercise asking the questions. Your time might better be spent on your schoolwork improving your essay writing skills, or dare I say ur vocabulary. That is, of course, assuming that you have nothing better to do. Now that might be 'kewl'.

Personally Daveydee, I don't think I need to improve my vocabulary or my essay writing skills as it isn't really necessary. And I don't have "schoolwork" as I have graduated and I'm starting university (college, whatever u wanna call it). Maybe u should catch up with ur schoolwork.
I love the Harry Potter books and I do think they're important it just seems a little strange that people want to discuss the love stuff in essays and that they haven't resolved it after 25 pages of writing. I have a free to say what I think and I wasn't rude and u don't need to be rude either Daveydee.

H/HR!!!!!!

Who else agrees with me that Dumbledore and McGonagall would make a good couple? They do get on rather well and they both defend eachother. HMS Gonadore? HMS McDugalldore?

Daveydee, he does already have all the power he needs. That is not the problem. There is really no 'jigsaw puzzle' as you put it. The problem, as I see it, is that he is forsaking this power at the end of OotP, and is walking down a different, and darker path. The way he describes how he feels a part of a different universe after Sirius died was the biggest indicator. 'He could not stand being Harry anymore' and so he has redefined who he is, so that he could be better able to cope with the situation he was in. He is becoming a colder person now, and his outlook has changed. This is shown through his indifference at hearing Cho had a new boyfriend. He didn't care. And that is the worst thing possible for the power he holds that can defeat Voldemort. He will not succeed if he tries to defeat Voldemort like this.

He will have to either hit a dead end and be forced to turn back to the power of love he has forsaken, or something or someone will call him back, either with their own compassion and love or some other way. And the power of love is redemptive, it could restore him and heal him no matter how far he had strayed from the path intended for him.

The fact that he could still feel sympathy for Luna was a good sign, but things could get worse instead of better from here.

EDIT: I should clarify. I said he already has all the power he needs. What I mean by this is, he has the potential. The power is there for him to tap into. He just hasn't reached his full potential yet. And seeing as this 'power' either is, or is directly related to love, it is logical to assume that greater forms of love are needed in order for the full potential to be realized. Of course he hasn't realized the height of his full power yet, otherwise Voldemort would be long gone by now. It'll take a journey of self discovery, his friends and loved ones at his side, for him to finally learn how to tap into and control his powers.

some points I want to say. First If you think the other is wrong or can't proof his point just disagree thats really are simple way to do.
You don't need to go personal to each other and ask how long or if they still go to school thats not your job and its I think so against the rules.
If you think someone is rude there are some possibles report this post and the mod will take care. Its no need to debatte this here.
See we had in the past some difficults in the past with this thread and was because of this behaviour closed. So I ask you to swallow the anger and give a normal rebutal or to report this post which did attack you personal. Thats I think much easier as to post how angered you are. Off course you can state you didn't mean some points or ask what did you wrong as long its civil.

Thats all

H/Hr would be a cool ship because it would be fun to see Harry's feelings for Hermione change, but I'm a R/Hr shipper.
Jk keeps saying they have something. She never lied before(did she ??). Harry and Hermione are more like brother and sister I think and that is cool. Hermione did not seem jealous at all. She was smiling when she said Chooe didn't take her eyes off Harry ... but she looked furious when Fleur kissed Ron on the cheek. The parallel Mr and Mrs Weasley is not only when they argue. At a point, Hermione askes Ron's opinion and there Harry is reminded of the Weasleys. I really think ( and hope) they will end up together. Though I wouldn't mind if H/hr happened.
I don't think Harry would care too much about girls right now. He may be a teenage boy, but his godfather died(and others will probably too) and he has to kill the most powerful wizard.
But I have a soft spot for H/G. That would be rather cool. She seems to have moved on, and maybe Harry will notice some changes about her ...
So pretty much every ship does it for me. Even if my favourite is R/Hr. ;)

You know Evirierl I'm glad that there are people who don't mind.
Though I see H/Hr in canon. You mention that Hermione is smileing but its a sligthly smile this say not a real one. In canon is another example of someone who smiles slightly its Lupin as he tell Mrs. Weasley she shouldn't think they let starve Ron and Ginny if she and Arthur die. See it can mean thats not at all a smile rather a sad smile.
But anyway I guess I can't change your thinking as if I ever could..

Thats poor that Ron only react jealousy. What is with looking strange at her or looking always to her. What is with blushing any signs like that or just to over hear failures but he didn't do this. If he can only be jealousy then his feeling can't be deep. Even Harry get nervous as he did speak with Cho. Why not a Ron who does this about Hermione just to show he like her but what was? Nothing.

Hi FP: I have a problem understanding you sometimes, as obviously English is not your first language, so forgive me in advance if I misunderstand you at some point!

Jealousy is a common emotion, but I believe that couples should rise above this feeling or their relationship is somewhat doomed to fail. In comparing Ron and Hermione's relationship to Harry and Cho's, there is a comfort level between Ron and Hermione that is not there with H/C. Ron and Hermione are friends, and they are used to interacting with each other on a daily basis. Harry and Cho are not friends and have had little interaction since they met in book 3. Harry is understandably nervous around her. As for jealousy, JKR has shown Harry to be jealous of Cedric because of Cho, Ron is jealous of Viktor, and Hermione is jealous of Fleur (when she kisses Ron).

You're right about your impression of my view but to this comes my personal view of Ron as Harrys friend and what I wish for him. The other part is more my focus at Harry. See I have different views and not only one. What purpose of plot is this you ask? Its simple Ron for once moan he is poor and what he want is to be rich now thats what canon try to suggest Ron want Hermione. This scenario don't getting what you want is a great lesson for kids because thats live. You get what you deserve and thats different.

Well, I disagree that Ron only wants Hermione as a possession, if that's what you are implying. Ron has matured nicely in Ootp. He wants a new broom, but realizes they can't afford a nice one and makes a humble request to his mom = quite a nice change from book 4.

. Hermione react more like a girlfriend which Harry don't has thats why someone like Cho who was his girlfriend is jealousy about Hermione. Hermione cares about Harry a lot in a way what let you or rather me get suspicious and Harry know this since his very first year from her. Its annoys him at times but at others he is greatful like after Umbridge detention or at the beginning of his friendship with her. But thats pretty normal.

Cho is an extremely insecure girl and her relationship with Harry was hardly solid ,so naturally she would think that Hermione was a threat to her and Harry's relationship. I disagree that Hermione acts like a girlfriend and Harry doesn't think of her in that manner at all. I suppose it comes down to personal viewpoint of what type of girl would be the right personality type for Harry. I don't believe Hermione is because of her personality annoys Harry (a lot). They rarely have fun together. On the contrary, Ginny is a good listener and Harry has already opened up to her on a personal level and of course, Harry is constantly describing her as laughing, giggling, etc. He seems to share her sense of humor. Dark times are ahead for Harry and I feel he needs some sunshine in his life, not a constant drone of nagging by Hermione and he also needs a girl with whom he can talk to without fear of verbal reprimands.

Hermione lives constanty in fears to lose Harry thats why she is like that in OotP. There are reason for her doing.
For example in GoF she go with Harry who is under his invisible cloak into hogsmead. She do it though she don't like it. Thats the point she would do it anyway. We don't see this by Ron.

Harry is her only friend that has a psychopathic killer and his gang of lunatics after him. That is Hermione's motivation for helping him and doing things that she doesn't like to do. Hermione's fears for Harry are not any more greater than any of Harry's other friends, such as Ginny, Sirius, Remus, Dumbledore, Arthur and Molly, Fred and George, and Neville. I would like to add the Ron also helped Harry out by accompanying him into the Forbidden Forest and following the spiders - poor Ron!

Harry has some power over Hermione if he want she did everything for him even she didn't like it to do it

Sounds a bit like slavery, lol! Hermione is an independent thinking girl and I disagree that Harry has any hold over her. She helps him because she wants to and they are friends! I believe Hermione would help any of her close friends, if they were in a situation were similar to Harry's.

Hello everyone, interesting conversations people, i love every single post. :agree:

Hey i was just flicking through OoTP looking for the text i needed to respond to Prongs' post, but coming across this made me forget what i was going to say to Prongs so i deleted what i had previously written and decided to bring this up (again).
Now i know this scene has been discussed again and again, but i missed a great chunk of the love threads during my three week absence about a month ago, so if you don't mind i would like to run through it again. Of course you can completely ignore me if you like because it must be very annoying having to repeat yourselves for a incompetent poster like myself, but anyway...

Page 404 (UK edition)
I feel and i'm sure i'm not alone, that that one page alone provides a lot of clues to the feelings of Hermione for Harry. What page is this? i hear you ask. well its the post-kiss (as i'v heard called before) scene.
I'll start from the top of the page:
He returned to the common room half an hour later to find Hermione and Ron in the best seats by the fire; nearly everybody else had gone to bed. Hermione was writing a very long letter; she had already filled half the roll of parchment, which was dangling from the edge of the table. Ron was lying on the hearthrug, trying to finish his tranfiguration homework
Ok a question to the supporters of R/Hr, if these two really do like each other, then whats with all the silence? Ron and Hermione were practically alone, without Harry or anyone else for that matter. They could have had a really good cosy conversation, with out the risk of anyone hearing. And yet they are sat there in silence doing there own thing. They've obviously been like that for a long time because Hermione has already written alot in her letter, so she's blantently been working hard at it for at least the last half hour. Ron is not trying to make conversation with her either, he's lying on the rug quietly doing his homework. Even teenagers who are fairly uncomfortable about romantic feelings can strike up a conversation, if they think no ones listening.
My analysis on this scene is the very blantent fact that the reason the two of them are not talking to each other is because they have nothing to talk about. Is this how it is to be, when/if they go out? Hermione writing a long letter to her 'almost intended' and Ron simply doing his homework, everything in silence? what do you think?

Now on to the next bit.
Harry didn't quite know how to set about telling them, and still wasn't sure whether he wanted to. Just as he had decided not to say anthing, Hermione took matters out of his hands.
'Is it Cho?' she asked in a businesslike way 'Did she corner you after the meeting?'
Businesslike? now i have already written what i used to think about this scene, in a very anti H/Hr way, but since then i have re-read OotP and have since changed my mind about why the reason Hermione asks this of Harry, because i'v had more time to think about it.
Now Hermione asks this in a businesslike way, iv seen many of you give dictionary interpretations on the word businesslike, which i'm not going to do, because it really is quite obvious why Hermione says this businesslike. IMO she really didn't need to ask that question because she already knew the answer, she was just asking it for clarifications sake. Saying it in a businesslike way, is very odd in a situation like this, Why doesn't she say it in a 'teasinglike way'
'Is it Cho?' Hermione asked in a teasinglike way' she already knows the answer so you'd think she was trying to wind him up, but no she doesn't say it like that, the way she does say it, is as though she's trying too hard to disguise the fact that she's not entirely pleased with what she knows the answer to be. Hermione is trying to be formal on a matter when she doesn't need to be, so why is she?
'So-er-what did she want?' he (Ron) asked in a mock casual voice.
'she-' Harry began, rather hoarsely;cleared his throat and tried again. 'She-er-'
'Did you kiss?' asked Hermione briskly
By Hermione saying it briskly, kind of says to me that she just blurts it out as though she thought Harry were taking his time in saying it. Again Hermione seems like she already knows the answer so why say it so quickly?
With Ron using a mock casual voice kind of says that Ron is getting the jist of whats going on, although by the fact that he sits up so fast, tells us that because Hermione has said this it has only just occured to him, so the question is, Was Hermione thinking about it in the first place to already have worked out the answer?
Harry looked from Ron's expression of mingled curiosity and hilarity to Hermione's slight frown
Ron seems interested but Hermione does not seem happy at all, i wonder why? :rolleyes:
whilst Ron is rolling on the floor laughing Hermione gave Ron a look of deep disgust and returned to her letter
she already seemed to know the answer to her question and now its been confirmed she goes back to her letter, IMO sulkingly, because she now doesn't want to look at Harry. so she continues on her letter as though that conversation never happened. She's obviously not consontrating on her letter though she's listening to Harry and Ron's conversation about whether Harry is a bad kisser, because she then says 'Of course your not' said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter. so now Hermione's gone from briskly to absently, its almost as though she has no more interest in the conversation anymore, and yet she speaks halfway through it. If you ask me Hermione's hiding something there, notice how she doesn't look at either of them as she says this, if she did i would expect her tone to have been quite different.
After this Hermione merely tells Harry the truth about Cho Chang, Is she being a kind friend? or is she trying to stir things up here? what ever the reason she doesn't exactly leave Harry feeling too happy about it.

Anyway, so far thats as far as iv gotten to analys that scene, i will continue to think about the rest.

Anway i think my post is full of a lot of holes so it can ripped to peices, i would really like to discuss what people truelly think about this because like i said i was away for a while and i'm not really sure if this has been said some more since i was last here, probably has as its an important scene, but thanks anyway, i shall be hanging around.

Hi FP: I have a problem understanding you sometimes, as obviously English is not your first language, so forgive me in advance if I misunderstand you at some point!

It's alright. See I'm still learning english. I suppose in some years you understand me more. But it can be that I don't explain things enough in this case its doesen't matter if I write in my language or in english because I rather think people do think like I do what isn't the case off course.

Jealousy is a common emotion, but I believe that couples should rise above this feeling or their relationship is somewhat doomed to fail. In comparing Ron and Hermione's relationship to Harry and Cho's, there is a comfort level between Ron and Hermione that is not there with H/C. Ron and Hermione are friends, and they are used to interacting with each other on a daily basis. Harry and Cho are not friends and have had little interaction since they met in book 3. Harry is understandably nervous around her. As for jealousy, JKR has shown Harry to be jealous of Cedric because of Cho, Ron is jealous of Viktor, and Hermione is jealous of Fleur (when she kisses Ron).

I agree jealousy is a common emotion but you need to choice if its more about the person itself or about you. Anyway you compare Ron and Hermione with Harry and Cho but I think you can't. Because for once Cho did like Harry back and it did happen but R/Hr didn't happen and its not clear if Hermione likes him.
With my statement I wanted to say that if you only show jealousy in matter of your crush than thats poor. Because to beeing in love shows or has signs in so many other areas as this. Ron is only jealousy this can mean anything if you want but to proof this is more say like love there have to be more signs like to be nervous or blushing or extrem exited to see Hermione but all this did never happen in canon.

Well, I disagree that Ron only wants Hermione as a possession, if that's what you are implying. Ron has matured nicely in Ootp. He wants a new broom, but realizes they can't afford a nice one and makes a humble request to his mom = quite a nice change from book 4.
He did matured because of his fall out in GoF. This fight did change Ron but to say it did change him from the very heart desire is far because we saw how Ron react still in such matter. Still he can't really handle Harrys fame but he try it. Who said he can handle to be poor? If someone react only if someone else want it that say he want it only to show the other can't have it and this behaviour is not love.


Cho is an extremely insecure girl and her relationship with Harry was hardly solid ,so naturally she would think that Hermione was a threat to her and Harry's relationship. I disagree that Hermione acts like a girlfriend and Harry doesn't think of her in that manner at all. I suppose it comes down to personal viewpoint of what type of girl would be the right personality type for Harry. I don't believe Hermione is because of her personality annoys Harry (a lot). They rarely have fun together. On the contrary, Ginny is a good listener and Harry has already opened up to her on a personal level and of course, Harry is constantly describing her as laughing, giggling, etc. He seems to share her sense of humor. Dark times are ahead for Harry and I feel he needs some sunshine in his life, not a constant drone of nagging by Hermione and he also needs a girl with whom he can talk to without fear of verbal reprimands.

Maybe Cho is unsure about what she want but she isn't stupid. She got only suspicious after she was with Harry a long time let say Valentins Day. Before nothing this is about 6 months. Why now? Because there is where Harry has to decide who is more important and Hermione is more important.
Uhmm its much to compare Ginny with Hermione because off two scenes. Till now we didn't see Ginnys worst day let say where she annoy or shows her ugly side to Harry. Till now pretty much nice. So you can't compare a character who is development since 4 books to another character who is development only in OotP. Maybe Ginny is nice in OotP but this don't say Harry can't dislike her in book6. We just know to less about her to say how great and powerful she is.

Hermione's fears for Harry are not any more greater than any of Harry's other friends, such as Ginny, Sirius, Remus, Dumbledore, Arthur and Molly, Fred and George, and Neville. I would like to add the Ron also helped Harry out by accompanying him into the Forbidden Forest and following the spiders - poor Ron!

Ron may know it but he don't think much about it till its jumps into his face but Hermione is someone who read much this say she can imagine things more and knows about this danger more because she reminds herself and her friends always. So its always in her mind. DD did react different as in Gof or Molly did just the same not too much spoil to Harry.

Sounds a bit like slavery, lol! Hermione is an independent thinking girl and I disagree that Harry has any hold over her. She helps him because she wants to and they are friends! I believe Hermione would help any of her close friends, if they were in a situation were similar to Harry's.

Harry has an emotional hold of her. Off course she is independent but she decide for Harry and always for Harry. Like I said if it mean everything she did everything for him.

Hermione treat everyone this way. It is her way to show she care. She do not only order, boss, scream at Harry but everyone else. It is only because Harry is the narrator and he is in the biggest trouble(hunted by others, anyone?), that create a image that Hermione only treat Harry like a child.

There are just as many evident show that Hermione is treating Ron as a Kid. Why do this does not count against R/Hr? I am very very confuse by your double standard(may be not double standard but I just can not see it? ?)

If you want, you can see Hermione try to boss Hagraid, too. Ever she try her best to control her ego.

First ask a R/Hr shipper the question about why is it okay for her to boss Ron and not Harry. As I have little interest on them. But overall I see that Ron also minds but contrary to Harry he is atracted to Hermione. Harry isn't and not only is he not atracted to her he is extremelly bother by her nagging and bossing.

Ron seems to handle it better, probably because he confronts Hermione and it is more used to it than Harry. How is it possible ask JKR because that for me it's a bit hard. In DT over at FA they can probably give you a better explanation about this. I know Ron has feelings for Hermione and that Hermione has feelings for Ron. That to me it's clear. Why is Ron atracted to Hermione if she sometimes gets on his nerves, nags and booses him? It's probably a question that JKR needs to answer. But to me it's very clear that Ron and Hermione have romantic feelings for each other.

Ok a question to the supporters of R/Hr, if these two really do like each other, then whats with all the silence? Ron and Hermione were practically alone, without Harry or anyone else for that matter. They could have had a really good cosy conversation, with out the risk of anyone hearing. And yet they are sat there in silence doing there own thing. They've obviously been like that for a long time because Hermione has already written alot in her letter, so she's blantently been working hard at it for at least the last half hour. Ron is not trying to make conversation with her either, he's lying on the rug quietly doing his homework. Even teenagers who are fairly uncomfortable about romantic feelings can strike up a conversation, if they think no ones listening.
My analysis on this scene is the very blantent fact that the reason the two of them are not talking to each other is because they have nothing to talk about. Is this how it is to be, when/if they go out? Hermione writing a long letter to her 'almost intended' and Ron simply doing his homework, everything in silence? what do you think?

If they fight it's a problem if they are quiet it's also a problem. Man this two can never win! :frown: I felt that the scene clearly shows that Ron and Hermione have reached a very nice point of their friendship. I mean they haven't been fighting, they aren't bickering they are simply sitting in the common room. Ron doing his homework, Hermione a letter. Not everytime you are with a friend you need to talk endlessly. Obviously they both have stuff to do but instead of clossing themselves in their rooms they choose to quietly do it in the common room in each others company. Something really nice to see.

Businesslike? now i have already written what i used to think about this scene, in a very anti H/Hr way, but since then i have re-read OotP and have since changed my mind about why the reason Hermione asks this of Harry, because i'v had more time to think about it.
Now Hermione asks this in a businesslike way, iv seen many of you give dictionary interpretations on the word businesslike, which i'm not going to do, because it really is quite obvious why Hermione says this businesslike. IMO she really didn't need to ask that question because she already knew the answer, she was just asking it for clarifications sake. Saying it in a businesslike way, is very odd in a situation like this, Why doesn't she say it in a 'teasinglike way'
'Is it Cho?' Hermione asked in a teasinglike way' she already knows the answer so you'd think she was trying to wind him up, but no she doesn't say it like that, the way she does say it, is as though she's trying too hard to disguise the fact that she's not entirely pleased with what she knows the answer to be. Hermione is trying to be formal on a matter when she doesn't need to be, so why is she?

They are very few occassions that Hermione is on her 'teasing like way'. Usually that's Ron's job on the trio. Hermione is the responsable one. Obviosly Hermione's and Ron sees that something has affected Harry a lot but he is very nervous about sharing that with them. So she helps out asking in a way that it's not teasing, jocking or on a mocking tone. That would be Ron's job not Hermione's. That all IMHO, off course.

By Hermione saying it briskly, kind of says to me that she just blurts it out as though she thought Harry were taking his time in saying it. Again Hermione seems like she already knows the answer so why say it so quickly?
With Ron using a mock casual voice kind of says that Ron is getting the jist of whats going on, although by the fact that he sits up so fast, tells us that because Hermione has said this it has only just occured to him, so the question is, Was Hermione thinking about it in the first place to already have worked out the answer?

She knows the answer because she knew it was going to happend. Ron and Her left earlier than Harry from the room. In the first meeting they helped Harry but in this one Hermione probably had the feeling that Cho was going to try something with Harry. This since in the first meeting she knew that Cho was flirting with Harry. She notice that Cho couldn't keep her eyes away from Harry. She knew that Cho was interested in getting closer to Harry and she helped out taking clueless Ron and everyone away so that could happend.

Ron seems interested but Hermione does not seem happy at all, i wonder why?
whilst Ron is rolling on the floor laughing

There is no indication here of not being happy. To me it sounds as she is waiting for an answer.

so now Hermione's gone from briskly to absently, its almost as though she has no more interest in the conversation anymore, and yet she speaks halfway through it. If you ask me Hermione's hiding something there, notice how she doesn't look at either of them as she says this, if she did i would expect her tone to have been quite different.
After this Hermione merely tells Harry the truth about Cho Chang, Is she being a kind friend? or is she trying to stir things up here? what ever the reason she doesn't exactly leave Harry feeling too happy about it.

She doesn't look because she is sure about what she is saying. Harry is not happy because he is a clueless boy who has just lost his crush on the girl he dreamed off for the past 21/2 years.


Gily Ann

Edit: I have an OT question. Does anybody has sometimes a hard time reading this very small letters?

I don't think Ginny started developing in book 5....we had seen enough of Ginny to know how she was WAY before book 5.
I also don't understand that some people try to ignore what JK officially states, by saying there's nothing between Harry and Hermione, I agree she wouldn't give her story right away, but if something was really up between them, she would have said a different thing, like she always does, not inmeaditly deny it.

If they fight it's a problem if they are quiet it's also a problem. Man this two can never win! :frown: I felt that the scene clearly shows that Ron and Hermione have reached a very nice point of their friendship. I mean they haven't been fighting, they aren't bickering they are simply sitting in the common room. Ron doing his homework, Hermione a letter. Not everytime you are with a friend you need to talk endlessly. Obviously they both have stuff to do but instead of clossing themselves in their rooms they choose to quietly do it in the common room in each others company. Something really nice to see.
Ron and Hermione fighting is not a good thing. Them not talking to each other because they clearly have nothing to say also shows its not a good thing. Why can't Ron and Hermione ever have a civil conversation? so far i haven't seen much of one between the two and i mean just the 'two', Not Harry. If it was so important that JK wanted to show Ron and Hermione getting on like a 'house on fire' without Harry then she would have let us know.
I'm sure if Ron was really desperate to talk to Hermione his homework would have been the last thing on his mind. As for Hermione's letter, well maybe she prefers to think about Krum than talk to Ron.
They are very few occassions that Hermione is on her 'teasing like way'. Usually that's Ron's job on the trio. Hermione is the responsable one. Obviosly Hermione's and Ron sees that something has affected Harry a lot but he is very nervous about sharing that with them. So she helps out asking in a way that it's not teasing, jocking or on a mocking tone. That would be Ron's job not Hermione's. That all IMHO, off course.
Ron's job??? its not like Ron has been employed the comedian, if Hermione thought about Harry being with Cho as funny as Ron did then she would have said it a bit lighter than in a 'businesslike way' right? well no i'm sure you won't agree with that, but what ever i say you will disagree with but anyway...
She knows the answer because she knew it was going to happend. Ron and Her left earlier than Harry from the room. In the first meeting they helped Harry but in this one Hermione probably had the feeling that Cho was going to try something with Harry. This since in the first meeting she knew that Cho was flirting with Harry. She notice that Cho couldn't keep her eyes away from Harry. She knew that Cho was interested in getting closer to Harry and she helped out taking clueless Ron and everyone away so that could happend.
R..ight ok so what your saying is that Hermione took Ron away so that Harry and Cho could get on with the enevitable. Well i wonder why Hermione didn't talk to Ron about this, surely they could have had a discussion about it, laughed about it or anything, i mean Harry is there best friend it wouldn't be unusual for them to discuss his private life without him actually being there, it happens all the time, it also would have given them something to talk about, considering the are supposed to have feelings for eachother and would have left out the silence that was surronding them when Harry entered the common room.
There is no indication here of not being happy. To me it sounds as she is waiting for an answer.
actually by saying Hermione is frowning kind of shows she is not happy.
She doesn't look because she is sure about what she is saying. Harry is not happy because he is a clueless boy who has just lost his crush on the girl he dreamed off for the past 21/2 years.
Huh lost his crush? don't know where you got that from, i'm quite sure he still likes Cho for pretty much the remainder of the book IMO.
Also if Hermione is so sure what she's saying and has no problem with it she should be able to look at them and say it, no reason for her not to. She's clearly not really consontrating on Krums' letter because she is listening to Ron and Harry's conversation

About one of Buckbeack's comment (not trying to gihht or anything) how is Harry supossed to know if Hermione and Ron had private talks about his life, if they were indeed...private.

Like i said, if it were really important and JK wanted us to know that Ron and Hermione can get along without Harry being there then she would have included it somewhere, she would have found a way to convey it, whether Harry can see it or not, for e.g she could have had Harry walking in on R/Hr having a cosy little chat which would clearly show that they can get along very nicely but no she didn't

But of course they can, I don't mean romantically, but JK usually shows Ron and Hermione being off somewhere, prefects duties, or maybe just talking, i dunno i dont have the actual quotes here but ive always seen them. They CAN get along without Harry.

For me the Harry/Hermione/Ron question is an easy one Harry & Hermione will end up together. Some say it does not matter who ends up with whom but I believe that it is an integral part of the plot. James sacrificed himself for Lily & Harry out of love. Lily sacrificed herself for Harry out of love. Sirius sacrificed himself for Harry out of love. Harry needs love to beat Lord V. Moreover, with each passing book that point is reemphasized. I believe that in the end Harry will need to experience romantic love to beat Lord V., together the two will finally defeat him.

There is no way that in two books without a MAJOR chunk of the books being about Harry falling in love with someone besides Hermione could it be legitimate. I personally would not want that much of the story dominated by that and I cannot see JKR doing that. Any girl that wanted to date Harry would consciously or unconsciously be compared to Hermione by him. Hermione means too much to him and it would be very difficult if not impossible for any girl to replace her. And honestly what girl or guy wants to be second in the mind of their significant other. Harry & Hermione may have to have a HUGE falling out for any girl to be able to take Hermione’s spot (which I cannot envision happening). Because those to have shared too many experiences together many even without Ron. This can all be applied to Hermione too. It is also fairly interesting to point out that neither Krum or Cho could handle the presence of “Harry & Hermione” in their relationship.

I don't see why Hermione is the only girl Harry can actually "love" when there are other hints that prove that Harry doesn't depend on Hermione. It's already been proven by everyone who reads the books, that sometimes, things happen in them, that you don't notice until the other books comes out. There may be plenty of clues.
Im not talking just H/G, im going general, Harry can love ANY girl, not just Hermione.

Ok i accept that there have been times that Ron and Hermione have seemingly gotten on fine with each other alone, but if this is a shipping moment that proves they can interact with one another then surely H/Hr would be stronger at this point for it has been constantly said by practically everyone that Harry and Hermione get on very well with one another.

Hermione is actually the most important girl in Harry's life. She is his best friend ! and for now I don't think he likes her as more than a friend. We would know it's from his POV ...
But I think there really is something between Ron and Hermione, for now. Maybe it will change and finally be H/Hr at the end ... But JK says no, so I'll believe her because when something is true she doesn't deny it, she just gives a answer that doesn't answer. :rolleyes:
and I doubt Hermione has a crush on Harry. I think she more has one on Ron. Remember her reaction to Fleur. But again, feelings change. But for now I think that R/Hr is more probable than H/Hr, in the next book.
Everything can still change right ? Maybe we'll have R/Hr together and then learn at the all end of the book that Hermione and Harry ended up together or something ...
But even if I like both ship as I said earlier, my heart goes more for Ron/Hr and I think it's more likely to happen. :)

Yes, they get along very well. But not all the time, because Hermione is contantly bossing around, and she is constantly disagreeing with Harry, I don't see how Harry and Hermione can happen when Harry's characteristics include him not following the rules, and Hermione is against that. She never trusts him unless it has another person's approval. By that other person I mean someone older. Yes she cares about him, not saying she doesn't, but she also lacks the characteristics Harry has.

What and Ron has the same as her?
Harry and Hermione are very different but not as much as Ron and Hermione.
Its true Hermione doesn't like breaking the rules, yet she does on a occation and who for? Harry.

I don't have time to say why I think Harry will and is falling in love with Hermione right now. But at this point I don't think that he is in love with Hermione although I think he could fall in love with her. I am just stating that it will be very hard for each of them to have a relationship without their friendship causing conflict in it. I was also saying that for Harry to meet and fall in love with someone else it would take to long to write.

Yes, she breaks the rules, because Harry is her friend. I am not using what I said before as a big clue for R/Hr, but I do sort of think they will end up together. I don't see how JK would write and say there's something between them, and then totally leave it behind.
I don't think its impossible for a relationship to happen if each side has different interests, but I do find impossible if Harry has many things on his mind, that would totally clash with someone like Hermione.

But what if its already written?? Just because Hermione is a girl, doesn't mean Harry has to love her. There are many things in this books that couldn't have happenned because of nothing.

There is no way that in two books without a MAJOR chunk of the books being about Harry falling in love with someone besides Hermione could it be legitimate. I personally would not want that much of the story dominated by that and I cannot see JKR doing that.

This is indeed your opinion and I respect it but I don't agree with it. Writing Harry falling for a girl other than Hermione is legitimate and it doesn't have to take up a majority of the books. There has been instances written in the books that can lead to a Harry/Ginny pairing, a Harry/Luna pairing, heck, we can even have him going back to Cho. Just because you don't think it's legit or whatnot doesn't mean anyone else does.

Any girl that wanted to date Harry would consciously or unconsciously be compared to Hermione by him.

Where in canon has any of the girls Harry checked out been compared to Hermione? Please point me to a page in any of the books. I really want to know where Harry ahs compared Hermione to any other girl he's had an interets in.

Hermione means too much to him and it would be very difficult if not impossible for any girl to replace her. And honestly what girl or guy wants to be second in the mind of their significant other. Harry & Hermione may have to have a HUGE falling out for any girl to be able to take Hermione’s spot (which I cannot envision happening).

You know, many shippers do believe that being Harry's girlfriend doesn't have to mean that that person is going to be taking over the role of Hermione. And I'm sure that many who ship Harry/ someone other than Hermione believe that Hermione's place would never be replaced. She can't be replaced because she's one of his best friends. It would take someone who knows what the trio's relationship is like and not be bothered by it to make a good relationship with Harry. My candidate is Ginny. She knows what the trio's friendship is like. She's basically Hermione's best girl friend. If she were to get together with Harry, she wouldn't be taking Hermione's place because I'm pretty sure that she knows that no one can take either Hermione's or Ron's place with Harry.

Because those to have shared too many experiences together many even without Ron. This can all be applied to Hermione too.

Hold up. If we're going to talk about all the times that Harry has done something with Hermione without Ron by their side, lets talk about the times where Harry was with Ron without Hermione by their side. Lets say I put in a case for Harry and Ron.

It is also fairly interesting to point out that neither Krum or Cho could handle the presence of “Harry & Hermione” in their relationship.

That's because they were jealous and there were those rumours floating about that Hermione and Harry were an item, which they both denied many times. But I don't see how you say Krum can't handle the Harry and Hermione relationship. He's still corresponding with her. Tehy probably are having a long distance thing. He knows that Harry's around her and everything and they're very close. But there's no mention of Krum being suspicious or anyting anymore. Actually, right after he and Harry have their little talk he seems cool about Harry and Hermioen being friends. He should watch out for Ron. :p

JK said there was tention between R/Hr that doesn't necesarly mean that they like each other, i mean these are teenagers when i was fifteen i had 'tention' with pretty much every boy in my class, still do sometimes :p it means nothing though.

and hey ana banana if you want to add something else to your post click on the edit button, they don't like double posts here :) i know because i have been told myself quite a few times.

I don't know if this is the right thread but when did everyone realize which couple they wanted?

I basically realized i wanted Harry and Hermione to happen just after OoTP, before that i was all for the trio staying friends. I really don't like R/Hr as a couple though so i'll try and argue that as much as i can. although saying that i don't mind Harry with Ginny together, or Harry and Pansy :lol: I don't know iv always thought there could be something there, but that is just a complete guess so i don't really have any evedence for it.

gosh grounded for one day and theres about 5 pages added lol. anyways i started wanting R/HR right after book 3. and h/l or h/g after OotP

JK said there was tention between R/Hr that doesn't necesarly mean that they like each other, i mean these are teenagers when i was fifteen i had 'tention' with pretty much every boy in my class, still do sometimes it means nothing though.
I slightly agree because tension doesn't really mean that a relationship is imminent because I feel that it can mean other things (maybe they just tend to disagree despite being friends) but it definitly is a possibility for a relationship. Also, there are lots of examples of it so whatever it is it is very strong.This is indeed your opinion and I respect it but I don't agree with it. Writing Harry falling for a girl other than Hermione is legitimate and it doesn't have to take up a majority of the books. There has been instances written in the books that can lead to a Harry/Ginny pairing, a Harry/Luna pairing, heck, we can even have him going back to Cho. Just because you don't think it's legit or whatnot doesn't mean anyone else does.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions (predictions and theories).Where in canon has any of the girls Harry checked out been compared to Hermione? Please point me to a page in any of the books. I really want to know where Harry ahs compared Hermione to any other girl he's had an interets in.
Unless I misunderstand the original message I am going to have to disagree because I don't think that Harry will consciously or unconsiously compare other girls to Hermione but as in the case of Cho, I can see where other girls would compare themselves to Hermione just because she is the girl that is Harry's age that is closest to him. They do spend quite a bit of time together and it is easy for people to be jealous of that (especially at an early age).You know, many shippers do believe that being Harry's girlfriend doesn't have to mean that that person is going to be taking over the role of Hermione. And I'm sure that many who ship Harry/ someone other than Hermione believe that Hermione's place would never be replaced. She can't be replaced because she's one of his best friends. It would take someone who knows what the trio's relationship is like and not be bothered by it to make a good relationship with Harry. My candidate is Ginny. She knows what the trio's friendship is like. She's basically Hermione's best girl friend. If she were to get together with Harry, she wouldn't be taking Hermione's place because I'm pretty sure that she knows that no one can take either Hermione's or Ron's place with Harry.
I would have to agree and say that Harry's significant other doesn't have to take the place of Hermione, in fact for the relationship to work, that person would have to work with Hermione because to try to break up best friends will never make for a good relationship, and because I feel this way I would also agree that in that event (assuming that the role of Hermione will remain friend and not grow into anything more) the person who would best fit in with Harry and still allow him to remain friends will Hermione would be Ginny or Luna (though I doubt Luna's chances for a relationship in general). That fact (or idea I guess)however doesn't exactly round down the candidates considering the "front runners" right now are Ginny, Hermione, and Luna.Hold up. If we're going to talk about all the times that Harry has done something with Hermione without Ron by their side, lets talk about the times where Harry was with Ron without Hermione by their side. Lets say I put in a case for Harry and Ron.
Again I agree.That's because they were jealous and there were those rumours floating about that Hermione and Harry were an item, which they both denied many times. But I don't see how you say Krum can't handle the Harry and Hermione relationship. He's still corresponding with her. Tehy probably are having a long distance thing. He knows that Harry's around her and everything and they're very close. But there's no mention of Krum being suspicious or anyting anymore. Actually, right after he and Harry have their little talk he seems cool about Harry and Hermioen being friends. He should watch out for Ron. Not much to say except that this kind of agrees with what I said above that one of the main obstacles for any relationship between Harry and anyone except for Hermoine will be getting over the fact that Hermione and Harry are friends (again, assuming that they are). I don't have time to say why I think Harry will and is falling in love with Hermione right now. But at this point I don't think that he is in love with Hermione although I think he could fall in love with her. I am just stating that it will be very hard for each of them to have a relationship without their friendship causing conflict in it. I was also saying that for Harry to meet and fall in love with someone else it would take to long to write.I agree that Harry and Hermione don't have romantic feelings for each other yet, and I also agree that any relationship between them would be weird at first because of their friendship, but that is something that they can get over with time (which they have plently of provided that they get started before the middle of Book 7). But, the last sentence about not having enough time to write a new relationship I am going to have to disagree with. I used to agree with this point, but look at Harry's relationship with Cho.....I believe that he knew her name the first time in Book 3, got to know and like her in Book 4, and dated her in Book 5. So, it took 3 years for a relationship to form out of nothing (and this was also a rather gradual relationship and there is nothing saying that Harry won't be quicker to ask a girl out this time). Now think about the timetable, 3 years from introduction to dating, now think about how many girls of dating age Harry already have a minor "friendship" with. I don't think that it would take much for Harry to develop a relationship out of a friendship that he already has with say....Parvati. I feel that Parvati is a good example for my theory because we know her name, we know that Harry knows her, though we know that he doesn't have romantic feelings for her (and I guess the chances in this particular case are low....the point remains) they could be developed in two books with no more part of those two books being devoted to romance than the previous two.

It's not only tension, it's a lot more. And I still say it, we can't deny what JK says, because she writes the books after all. And by the way, I'd like to see where Harry compares other girls he likes to Hermione as well..

but it's not only tension.they like each other.i think that when ron asks harry what does hermione see in krum is like harry knew.ok he knows,but as though ron had had officially told him that he likes hermione..
i dont like H/Hr and i dont even think it's possible because they dont have fun together.(that means without ron)
i started wanting R/Hr after POA too,H/G after COS..i always liked that girl.i didnt mind harry/cho either before ootp..

It's not only tension, it's a lot more. And I still say it, we can't deny what JK says, because she writes the books after all. And by the way, I'd like to see where Harry compares other girls he likes to Hermione as well..Do you have examples from the text (sorry if I missed them, I am a little behind on my reading of this thread)but it's not only tension.they like each other.i think that when ron asks harry what does hermione see in krum is like harry knew.ok he knows,but as though ron had had officially told him that he likes hermione..
i dont like H/Hr and i dont even think it's possible because they dont have fun together.(that means without ron)
i started wanting R/Hr after POA too,H/G after COS..i always liked that girl.i didnt mind harry/cho either before ootp..

I do agree that it is a possibility that they can be more that just friends, but it is rather unarguable either way. It is a possibility though.

I agree, I find the moments between Harry and Hermione ONLY not very fun. Its the trio together that I like. And I started liking H/G right after CoS as well, because I strongly believe that 1.- If the crush doesn't mean anything, we are reading different books 2.- ANYONE could have been posessed by Voldemort, but it was GINNY.
Of course those are not my only reasons, or clues. But thats how I feel.

ANYONE could have been posessed by Voldemort, but it was GINNY.
Of course those are not my only reasons, or clues. But thats how I feel.Yes, it could have been anyone, but just because it was Ginny doesn't mean that Harry will have a romantic relationship with her. Anyone could be Harry's best friend, but it was Hermione. I just don't think that that is convincing enough for either of them.

You misunderstand my point, although I didn't express it the way I should have. What I mean is that there are many things that show Ginny CAN be Harry's love interest, because there are many connections between them, not always realized by them, but yet they're still there. I'm not saying Hermione doesn't have them. But there are several things that fit best to Harry's personality, and there are several things that Ginny understands that no one else does, because she's been posessed by Voldemort, and I wouldn't write a whole book about someone opening a chamber, being posessed by Voldemort, and then bury it down in the series and not commenting on it ever again.

What I mean is that there are many things that show Ginny CAN be Harry's love interest, because there are many connections between them, not always realized by them, but yet they're still there. I'm not saying Hermione doesn't have them. But there are several things that fit best to Harry's personality, and there are several things that Ginny understands that no one else does, because she's been posessed by Voldemort, and I wouldn't write a whole book about someone opening a chamber, being posessed by Voldemort, and then bury it down in the series and not commenting on it ever again.
Ok, I see your point, but you have to understand that I will be unconvinced without examples, even if they aren't direct quotes, just specific occurances.

Yes, I'm like that as well, I need quotes, but I can't look for them right now, would take lots of time lol. I'll try to be as clear, for example...
Harry rarely comments on Ginny opening the chamber, just as he didn't comment on Ginny's crush on him. He wasn't annoyed by it, like he was with Colin being his fan or something. Instead, he didn't like it when they made fun of her, example: the elbow on the butterdish, or Tom making fun of her.
Now my point is, he rarely talks about the chamber experience, because he knows what it is like to be through an experience with Voldemort. He rarely says something about it, and one of those few times was when he was trying to convince Ron and Hermione to help him find Sirius. He told Hermione she didn't mind his saving ppl thing, when he saved her from the dementors, and then he told Ron he didn't mind it either when he saved his sister from the basilisk.
Now, he didn't save her from the basilisk, he saved her from Tom, and that in everyone's eye could be a mistake, but if you see it correctly, you'll find that Harry doesn't like saying Ginny did something wrong. Now that doesn't mean Harry loves Ginny, but it does mean that Harry and Ginny have reached an understanding level witout talking, and I'm sure he would have shared this understanding level with anyone if he had saved them from Voldemort. But Ginny is aware of this, and she calms Harry down everytime she is there, because she knows how to.

Ron and Hermione fighting is not a good thing. Them not talking to each other because they clearly have nothing to say also shows its not a good thing. Why can't Ron and Hermione ever have a civil conversation? so far i haven't seen much of one between the two and i mean just the 'two', Not Harry. If it was so important that JK wanted to show Ron and Hermione getting on like a 'house on fire' without Harry then she would have let us know.
I'm sure if Ron was really desperate to talk to Hermione his homework would have been the last thing on his mind. As for Hermione's letter, well maybe she prefers to think about Krum than talk to Ron.

Well why can't they sit there quietly doing their stuff but toguether. Couples do that all the time. This books are in Harry's point of view if you like to see a conversation between Hermione and Ron I'm afraid it would be impossible as he is our PoV character. Ron is doing his homework and obviously he doesn't need Hermione's help because he is doing it alone. Hermione is there writting her letter. I mean they could easily go to each others room and not be there. But obviously they prefer to be there toguether doing their stuff than each on their room doing their stuff.


Ron's job??? its not like Ron has been employed the comedian, if Hermione thought about Harry being with Cho as funny as Ron did then she would have said it a bit lighter than in a 'businesslike way' right? well no i'm sure you won't agree with that, but what ever i say you will disagree with but anyway...

Yes that's one of the many jobs, side of the trio, role or whatever you want to call it. One of his roles is there to put less weight into things and make it less heavy. Clearly there Hermione was making less traumatic the experience for Harry.

R..ight ok so what your saying is that Hermione took Ron away so that Harry and Cho could get on with the enevitable. Well i wonder why Hermione didn't talk to Ron about this, surely they could have had a discussion about it, laughed about it or anything, i mean Harry is there best friend it wouldn't be unusual for them to discuss his private life without him actually being there, it happens all the time, it also would have given them something to talk about, considering the are supposed to have feelings for eachother and would have left out the silence that was surronding them when Harry entered the common room.

Does Hermione needs to run a newsstand on this things? No, she probably suspected but she is not goint to tell Ron who probably is going to be clueless and probably say something that ruins it. Actually Hermione and Ron do discouss Harry's private life without him.

actually by saying Hermione is frowning kind of shows she is not happy.

I don't see her as being not happy. Wasn't this also after Ron send his Ink bottle flying or something? I would have kick Ron.

Huh lost his crush? don't know where you got that from, i'm quite sure he still likes Cho for pretty much the remainder of the book IMO.
Also if Hermione is so sure what she's saying and has no problem with it she should be able to look at them and say it, no reason for her not to. She's clearly not really consontrating on Krums' letter because she is listening to Ron and Harry's conversation

Got from OoP. I'm sure he didn't. It died with that kiss. What shots Harry's crush dead is that kiss. Harry's crush was an image on his head. When Cho failed at his image it's when the crush dies out. Simply because she's no longer is the way he wanted to be.

Also didn't you mention that Hermione wasn't interested in the conversation and was on her letter back. Because her absenminded respond says that she was writting but since she is not deaf and the common Room is empty. She had to hear what they were saying.

There is no way that in two books without a MAJOR chunk of the books being about Harry falling in love with someone besides Hermione could it be legitimate. I personally would not want that much of the story dominated by that and I cannot see JKR doing that. Any girl that wanted to date Harry would consciously or unconsciously be compared to Hermione by him. Hermione means too much to him and it would be very difficult if not impossible for any girl to replace her. And honestly what girl or guy wants to be second in the mind of their significant other. Harry & Hermione may have to have a HUGE falling out for any girl to be able to take Hermione’s spot (which I cannot envision happening). Because those to have shared too many experiences together many even without Ron. This can all be applied to Hermione too. It is also fairly interesting to point out that neither Krum or Cho could handle the presence of “Harry & Hermione” in their relationship.

As usual I disagree. The H/Hr pairing is the most difficult to match simply they show no atraction to each other, they are clearly very good friends. I missed the part were Harry compared Hermione to Cho. I mean besides the dream. When does he sits down and says he does this, she does that. I don't believe he did. In fact Hermione and Cho were made out to be personality speaking very similar. Making Hermione just as bad partner as Cho was.

I don't know if this is the right thread but when did everyone realize which couple they wanted?

For me. I knew Harry was ending up with Ginny from Book 1 train station. I wanted them to get toguether book 2.


Gily Ann

Hi. Yep, I too have entered into lurkdom. But may I step onto the debate trail to ask what is OBHWF? I have been wondering about this for a long time. Please shed some light on my question mark bubble. :huh:

BTW, everyone's posts are great! :p I am noting several rebuttles and thoughts but not for posting, yet.

:) Have a good one.

DaveyDee

noddwyd already did an outstanding job of clarifying these points, but I’ll attempt to add my two pence nonetheless, with some further H/Hr clarification…



DaveyDee
I am sure that there is a clear message to be had, I'm not sure that JK is thinking quite as loftily as that.
Nevertheless...

LOL. Of course, this is the predictions and theories forum…so I will clarify that this is just my opinion and hope re: JKR’s intent for the series w/which certain others may agree in whole or part. Yes, I confess I will in fact be disappointed if love is reduced to a minor bit in the series but there you go...



DaveyDee

Quote: evaluna:
-What of Harry's best friends? See the last sentence in no. 5, above, and also noddwyd's and Turambar's post on this re: love, including the platonic or universal love of friends and the deeper love of one.

'The deeper love of one'. 'The one', I assume to be Hermione. The implication is that this one type of love will be the key rests on the following assumptions. That a jigsaw puzzle exists, from which the absence of this type of love will curtail Harry in his quest; That it alone is of more value to Harry than other types of love;

Yes, I assume it to be Hermione based on my read of canon. And I hope it to be Hermione based on my read of Harry’s feelings in canon. But I do believe that whomever Harry loves will have to play this larger role, thematically. And the bottom line for Harry’s struggle and the external battle, really, is that Harry be healed and whole and loved, ready to take on Voldemort and the world. I can’t think of anyone that would suit the other better at this point per canon, unless the H/Hr relationship were to notch down drastically. But if that happens and JKR can portray someone else convincingly winning Harry’s trust, esteem, and abiding love, then so be it. I would be forced to revisit the ship for Harry’s sake.

However, whilst others say it can be done, I am not wholly convinced this could be done convincingly in the time remaining…is Harry going to be able to successfully extract Hermione’s form and voice from his head and presumably his heart? And why would that be a good thing, mutilating his natural inclination, even if not fully examined at this point? Though regardless of Harry’s eventual love [and I think there must be one], I would not pair Hermione with anyone with whom she does not share mutual trust, esteem, and abiding love, either.

In fact, whilst I hope all the characters find some happiness [knowing that this outcome is of course doubtful, but anyway…], I would rather see the various characters find either real love, else inner happiness by themselves. I’d rather not bother with shallow stuff beyone a line or two of page space, similar to the recounting of Ginny’s latest boyfriends. That is, for me real love is critical to my interpretation of canon and Harry’s ultimate struggle. A superficial relationship for Harry [and even more so for the others] is a distraction from what I perceive are the main themes of HP and I would rather read as little as possible about those. For Harry and Hermione as characters, as well as certain others like Luna or Neville, I see passing relationships as OOC anyway, as they are written much deeper [and older] than that IMO. If any of the other characters find true love, that’s great; nonetheless I hold it to be most critical and meaningful for Harry.



DaveyDee

[i]Quote: evaluna: Harry's friends will certainly need to guide and support him with their love, and I think the love of his best friends will be critical in bringing Harry back to the light. However, [per inability to open the DoM mystery door], it's probably not sufficient to access the full measure of Harry's power/defeat Voldemort(fear, hatred)...

That rests on the assumption that 'love' is required to physically open the door. Such an assumption is at the fringes of prudent speculation. Dumbledore referred to the power of love as the weapon to defeat Voldemort. There is no suggestion that it is also the key to the door. He merely states that it is 'kept locked at all times'. To suggest that Harry is the only person in the world that has or will ever possess sufficient quantites of love in his heart to be able to open that door is a bit extreme. I mean, I know he's special but come on...


And to clarify:

-Yes, my assumptions regarding the DoM mystery door are based on circumstantial evidence perhaps, but I see no more plausible reason [thematically, that is, particularly in light of Dumbledore’s speech] that this door and no other they tried failed to open; it is therefore not unreasonable to assume this room is protected beyond all others as it contains a force beyond all others. Again, JMO but others agreed and I wasn’t the first to suggest it [probably it was Turambar or Perdita] and actually I’ve heard no better ;)

-Yes, I do see the DoM ‘inner sanctum’ door, where, presumably, this greatest of all forces is contained, as an allegory for Harry’s heart, as Harry also contains this greatest of all forces in a measure beyond all others. To me this allegory is crucial to understanding Dumbledore’s speech at OoP’s end. But of course, JMO. Given the importance of this force, I am prudently assuming that the unconditional love of his friends is necessary to return Harry to the light but may not be sufficient to allow him to fully realise his potential.

And Harry is special, DD. Did you read my 'mutant' ref on a prior post? ;) Harry's social isolation, his fundamentally threatening and yet redemptive power [to wield the greatest of all forces] rebuffed the most powerful dark magic in existence -- so Harry's pretty unique already. Along with this is Harry's unique and intrinsic connection to Voldemort; thus, Harry's unique potential to influence and transform their connection from darkness and hatred into light and love. In tandem with his great gifts, Harry's incumbent responsibilities separate him as much as his history does, and IMO far more than the dubiously interpreted 'prediction'.

That’s why Harry is the outsider no matter where he goes, and that’s why it falls on him to confront Voldemort and the forces of darkness [fear, evil], including not just the dark magic, violence, and brutal oppression Voldemort et al represent but also the racism and social injustice Voldy and his forces champion. Because Harry does have the power to transform the world. Harry is to the world as love is to Harry. He is the greatest weakness [opposes the incumbent evil, fear, hatred, and injustice and therefore threatens those who benefit] and the greatest strength [has the power to heal, to bring light from darkness, has the potential to transform the world]. In order to realise victory, I see Harry utilising the unconditional love and support of his select DADA posse, his best friends, and the ultimate love of one, all together, to tap his fullest potential in his struggles against the inner and outer forces of darkness]. I think many on my ship and some on neutral ground would agree that Harry will need love from many sources; we just argue that he will likely come to need one love above all others. To stay the course, to stay true to himself.


DaveyDee
[i]Quote: evaluna: Lastly, what depth of feelings beyond friendship is Harry suppressing, exactly? Whilst others may say there is no romance or tension between Harry and Hermione, I certainly can't buy that there is nothing between them beyond friendship, and for me it was most obvious on Harry's side after even the initial read of OoP. I don't see 'romance' associated in the usual sense. Full-on love, more like. Thankfully, my fellow shipmates have long since shown me convincing potential evidence of Hermione's more subtle affection, as I initially feared a letdown for Harry that he can scarely afford as the deaths pile up.

This rests on the assumption that Hermione actually feels something for Harry. If we accept the numerous arguments by the H/Hr ship as to why Hermione would be good for Harry, we are still left with no credible ideas (no ideas at all, in fact) as to why Harry would be good for Hermione, who is after all 50% of the equation. Without addressing that side of the equation, Hermione is little more than a tool in Harry's armoury.

First, you are correct in that Hermione is certainly 50% of the equation! We are agreed! Further, if Harry realises his love for Hermione and it is one-sided, we are probably in for some dark times ahead but there you go; it must be mutual, for certain. If this is the case, perhaps Harry will nonetheless be able to use the force of his love alone to save the day? Lonely, though, and Harry’s risk of death by sacrifice is exponentially greater, IMO. Big reason why I favour mutual love for Harry instead.

However, the bottom line re: What does Hermione get? is that if Harry and Hermione love one another, that’s reason enough for either Hermione or Harry, isnt’ it?. IMO Hermione’s feelings are a bigger mystery, although there is convincing circumstantial evidence that she may have cared for Harry as more than a friend for some time now. My shipmates can assist here so I'll leave it at that. Harry’s mystery is his convoluted heart [it’s like Devil’s Snare, and it may require Hermione’s healing blue flame to unravel it and render it harmless to himself and others…], so there’s no guarantee he’ll realise his feelings, either. None can say for certain till the whole thing outs. This is my interpretation of canon and you are more than welcome to disagree. In fact, please do! Else I think no one across the way has got anything out of it…Or worse, that I’ve got you to AGREE !!! Just kidding…:LOL:

Comprendez-vous? [back at you!]
Cheers! Thanks again noddwyd for that excellent clarification of general theory [-H/Hr specifics ;)] in your prior post.
And a big Welcome to the Thread, any and all newcomers!

Nice post Evaluna. Thanks FP and Grace for earlier. I was reading the part where they try the (probable) love room door again and it's interesting that Harry runs Sirius' knife down the edge between the door and the wall and the blade "melts". It doesn't break, it melts. Interesting. No other indications of heat, flames or light.

Question: Why is the one of the names for the H/Hr ship called Pumpkin Pie? I'd just like to know where that name came from. Thanks.

I still say you are all seriously underestimating Luna in this equation. She may seem wierd at first glance, but as they say, it is impossible to judge a book by its cover. In actuality, even after you have read it's contents many times, it is still almost impossible to judge it. Many of the people here in this thread just seem to want to write her off as incompatible with others due to wierdness factor. And that is not the case at all. In a way, she's like the centaurs, in that she 'knows things' but doesn't let on much. She has a reason for acting wierd the way she does, just as Dumbledore also has a good reason for acting odd from time to time. And does anyone judge him by that? No, they respect him because of good example he sets, and the leadership he provides, to both the wizarding world as a whole and the students of his school, who represent the future of the wizarding world anyway. This doesn't mean Luna is destined for such a position, although she might be, I am just saying that not everybody will see her as just an annoying oddball, and steal her stuff and hide it somewhere. Some people will come to understand her, and we may, in fact, see this happen over the span of the next two books. In the meantime, she still has her dad, it seems. And among her new friends there may be someone who is already starting to understand her.

edit: I still haven't figured that out yet, Fairydust. But I have always liked pumpkin pie, myself. It's my favourite kind of pie, anyway.

Well nodd, as far as this thread goes, Luna actually interest me a great deal. However, see that there is not much discussion about her here, I usually avoid bringing her up and I do have several ideas. Hopefully, they're better than the "Ron goes out with Luna to make Hermione jealous and suddenly forces her to realize her feelings for him" scenario.

its from an old fic that was written a few months before GoF came out i think, Harry and Hermione were eating pumpkin pie when they started kissing and thats where the whole name comes from, im sure its still around somewhere but seeing as portkey is down cuz of hard drive errors i cant get the link.

I think Luna interests quite a lot of us. But we need more information and her 'knowledge' may be useful to the general plot more than in a shipping sense. I'd rather JKR gave her more screen time in the next two books than Ginny to be honest.

Okay, thanks for the answer, stncold.

I wouldn't mind seeing Luna have flings with Harry or Ron or Neviile. Not that I want her to be a floozy or anything. It would just be hilarious to see her in a relationship. What about Colin Creevey? The only guy we know of in Ginny and Luna's year. Any takers? I mean, there's no evidence whatsoever but...

Right now I can see potential for Harry/Luna or Ron/Luna, but other than that, it's pretty much just a shot in the dark. And I'm not so sure about Ron since, well, I don't really expect he'd be able to understand her. But far stranger things have happened, and she is, after all, the anti-Hermione, so he probably does have a better shot at understanding her than he does Hermione, and that's a start. And really all Harry and Luna have to build on so far was they connected on the issue of death and losing parent figures. That, plus he felt sympathy for her, and wanted to help her get her stuff back. But again, that's a start. But Luna has a thing for Ron at the moment, so, I really don't know where this is going.

Catching up with things---

FlyingPhoenix, you have forwarded so many wonderful ideas. I am truly impressed. Keep up the great work! To Turambar, Fabiana, Hawk 86 and Ecthelion, and fellow crew of the Harmony, I’ve enjoyed your work!

Fairydust, I think your recent posts have been well thought out and well presented–well done! (Sends cheers from deck of the Harmony)

Evaluna, brilliant post #717 I’ll have much more to say later.
Right now, however, I’d like to interject my thoughts into a discussion that has been ongoing (and at times rather heated) for the last few pages.

On Youth and Love

Originally Posted by Evaluna:
The path of true platonic love [in the classic sense of the word] ensures the greatest of loves, one that satisfies the soul [B Marley anyone?], whilst allowing for the possibility of eros in the appropriate time and place [i.e. between persons permitted to one another], and providing for sustenance of the relationship at all levels over time. Something that almost by definition cannot happen with eros alone. Does a relationship based on eros progress to a love between souls? Possibly, but for certain this is far less likely. Because the soul is where it’s at. That’s where the lasting “chemistry” lies. The soul is the seat of the self, and all that other stuff [whether you’re DDG or just whatever ] is fleeting and transitory, revealing nothing about true compatibility and connection.

Daveydee responded:

I know that this is a pet concept of yours, evaluna, but I have to say I disagree with it. Of course I don’t disagree with the sentiment behind it, all very laudable; but it really does not reflect harsh reality.


That reality is the fact that in the vast, overwhelming number of cases it is eros love which comes first (chronologically) in a relationship and may or may not be followed by platonic love.

Put bluntly - it’s a fact of life, that with few exceptions, we are initially drawn to the opposite sex by appearance or some other physical aspect of that person, whether it be a certain sexual aura or whatever. Of course once we get to know the person inside, the relationship either prevails or it falters. That may be an unedifying reflection of human emotions; it is nonetheless how things play out in the real world (rooted very firmly in nature – the search for the perfect specimen to enable the survival of the species, etc).

Put even more bluntly – if the spark is not there at the outset, it is very unlikely to develop later. And that, I’m afraid, is how I see Hermione and Harry. A beautiful and meaningful friendship (in many ways far superior to the potentially transient nature of romance) – but no spark.




Re Evaluna’s theory, which also happens to be my theory as well:

Eros-to-spirituality, yes it is more common in the real world, among fully matured adults, but, in my own experience of :rolleyes: -years with young adults, ages 11-14, what a young person wants and what an adult wants are completely different, despite what we see on TV, movies and read in most YA novels. And we cannot forget that we are dealing with children here.

During the year a person grows from 11 to 12 years old, there is generally a very important dynamic taking place (of course, some children experience this earlier and some later.) The average child, however, begins transference of dependency from his or her care-giving adults to a selected group of peers. Although the media, especially advertising media would make it seem that the overriding need of young adults is to be perceived as attractive and popular, the REAL, fundamental and less talked-about need is for total, unconditional acceptance. Some teens will do anything to be accepted. Interactions with the opposite sex are all based in acceptance. Yes, of course, we all want acceptance, but as adults, there are additional factors that figure into this concept. For a young adult, the libido is still developing and, given the stimulus of television and other media, prodding them toward behaviors for which they are not fully ready, young people often mistake their need for acceptance for other needs. You would only have to sit and talk with a room full of young teen mothers, most of whom will tell you that they had their babies because they wanted someone to love them, accept them unconditionally to understand the soundness of this concept.

In the middle school (11 – 14 years old) where I presently teach, an inordinate number of students, met their future spouses sitting in a 6th grade (11-years) classroom. Did these kids have some major attraction between them? Not that I observed—and I watch my kids pretty closely. No, it was unconditional friendship—in ALL the cases I observed. Just two kids who found some form of commonality and found in each other someone for whom they did not have to wear the latest cutting edge outfits, someone who they could always count on to be a partner whenever they needed one for a project, someone who would always have their back if a bully made an unkind comment, someone with whom they could be real and honest. Just good friends. Did they ever have fallings out? Of course, and both would be miserable until they managed to patch things up. Some of these friends would go to dances with each other and sometimes with other people, but THEY remained close, through high school and beyond and then married. I don’t know of any who have divorced.


Physical attraction is a very shallow, very hollow reason to be drawn to someone yet our societies seem to push it on us through all forms of media. It makes us objectify people--both men and women. This is NOT to say that I advocate us all going around unshaven and without pride in our appearance, this is not what I am saying. But, like those students from my school who saw a friendly face in a room full of judgmental strangers, people who connect, who truly connect do so because of something beautiful, and meaningful within each other.


I believe that if JKR is showing us an example of soulmates in Harry and Hermione, then the only way to effectively do it is to develop it through a youthful friendship that develops and changes into love in the fullness of time. This growth from a pure platonic love into something more, gives this relationship an honesty that is not found in the typical media-based teen romance, which is focused on "getting him (or her) to finally notice me." If Harry and Hermione’s relationship is to be crucial to the resolution of the Voldemort problem, then this kind of development is essential to its believability.


The Runes/Venus Connection or
“What’s Love Got to Do with It?”


A recurring observation, even among anti H/Hr shippers is that Harry and Hermione work well together. The disagreement seems to spring from the reasons JKR has paired them up so often. The R/H and H/G ships claim that they are just good friends, we Harmonians, almost to a ‘man,’ claim that JKR is developing something between the two of them which may (or may not) have dramatic consequences for the wizarding world. A big question, since OoP, seems to be Harry's psyche and his possible descent into darkness. Could he even manage a relationship with anyone?

Noddwyd wrote:

I don't know what JKR wants to convey to her readers with this series. Perhaps just simply a good vs evil story, where the hero and the villain battle each other to the death, charging in with equal amounts of hatred from both sides. Each seeing the other as 'in the wrong' and self-righteousness abounds. And if she wants it to be true to life, this is probably the route she will take, for this same scene has happened in real life more times than there are stars in the sky, and all it brings is death and destruction. Hate begets hate begets hate begets hate begets hate...... Do you see a pattern?
But, thankfully, it seems she does not want to go that way, and instead of just showing us what we already know, is trying to show us, along with Harry, that there is another way. She has already begun this process, through Dumbledore:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKR
"There is a room in the Department of Mysteries," interrupted Dumbledore, "that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."
I think we would all agree, that the force he is referring to either is love itself or is directly related to love.
Okay, well let's review. <snip>And now, as Dumbledore says, it saved him from possession even though it was what drove him there in the first place (and he wouldn't have even got there without his friends, who all have some love for him.) Love. It can be the greatest weakness, and yet, it can also be the greatest strength. I am detecting another pattern here, anybody else? No?

Dumbledore tells Harry that this love is what has kept him alive this long, and at least implies that he should not abandon it, for it is his greatest asset in the fight against Voldemort, (and hatred in general) but does he listen? No. He turns right around and takes the other path as I meantioned above. The path of darkness. The lonley one, where you've given up being human so you won't have to care anymore, and thus won't have to feel any of the pain that goes along with being human. And in the process giving up love, the very thing that has kept him alive for the past fifteen years (and also the thing that brought him into existence in the first place)


I am not so certain Harry is even capable of taking the dark path. Harry is very expressive in anger. When he says he doesn’t want to be human any more, he is full of fresh despair, abandonment, betrayal, anger, hurt, terrible, terrible guilt and probably a hundred other emotions all screaming to make themselves heard. He is beyond himself and not thinking clearly, but this is a perfectly normal response to what he has just been through. And, you notice he did not run away from everyone after talking to Dumbledore as was his first instinct. No one could expect him to join in the feast—not in the midst of his grief. His heart was broken.
I don’t know if anyone else has ever lost a loved one, but there is a disconnectedness you feel—almost as if you are living outside your body in some kind of alternate reality. It is the strangest sensation and cannot be fully explained. It takes a space of time with yourself to reconcile the reality of death. Harry’s period of withdrawal is also very normal.

Love literally sustains Harry, just as Voldemort is sustained by his hatred and lust for power and domination. Love is inexorably a part of Harry’s being. Remember from PS/SS? Love is in Harry’s very skin. He cannot escape it. He cannot STOP caring. Even in his pain, he wants the comfort of other people and part of himself recognizes that, but, at the same time, he needs something from them that he cannot define. Hermione tries, but is silenced by Ron. Luna is able to reach Harry on one level because of their similar experiences. But, if you notice, even before he was comforted by her, Harry’s HEART went out to her in pity.

Posted by Evaluna:
Given Dumbledore's words and the fact that Harry does not have it in him to perform an unforgiveable curse, it seems to me his path is one of light and love to victory. Else, defeat. Actually and spiritually. Given that IMO the tradition G v E is death for Harry [metaphorically, that is, a spiritual death, if not physical death as well] as it means he must surely murder and/or use one of 'the 3' UC's. If Harry is in fact able to perform murder or an unforgiveable curse, however, he will certainly have lost the connection to that power he possesses beyond all others. Without this force, he is no longer Harry. He will then have become someone else not capable of defeating Voldemort, much less saving the rest of the world.


Very much agreed. I truly believe that the entire series is about one phenomenal boy’s journey from darkness, through a deeper darkness to light, and that the end will inform us that the only true magic; after all that he learned and accomplished in the wizarding world was within his possession all along. Harry has already perceived what his magical limitations would be should he engage Voldemort in a one-to-one confrontation. He will possibly learn more Defense Against the Dark Arts, but, he will always know that he cannot kill Voldemort with one of the UC’s and still remain Harry.



Posted by Evaluna:
Harry must come to know himself, to understand that he is the source, just Harry [i.e., his mind, his heart, his love and compassion], that he is the force beyond all others with the potential to transform love from hate, light from darkness. He requires only the key, the self-knowlege, to unlock his own mind and his own heart. As ecthelion said, this means acknowledgement. Not just of his responsibilities, his guilt, his power, but also, of his heart, his emotion

I agree 100%!!
My take on all of these terrible experiences in Book V, is that Harry must rise above those who have mentored him, he must rise above his prior desire to define himself by his connections to his father, to Sirius and even to Albus Dumbledore, who is not as all-seeing and all-knowing as Harry first thought. His ‘disillusionment’ in OoP is what will enable him to begin to see things clearly—see himself clearly and to truly know himself—know what it is he needs and recognize the extent of this power of his.

Remember all the vision clues in CoS and later in PoA and GoF? I think in addition to pertaining to the stories in which they appeared, that they carried with them implications for the entire septology. Sight and perceptions are important.

I believe that with her awareness, Hermione will be his ultimate guide not only of this understanding of himself, but also of the full extent of his power. Hermione appears time and again as Harry’s guide--the one who points him in the right direction. This is most graphically illustrated in PoA when she uses the impervious charm on his glasses to help him see in a rainstorm and in GoF with her “four-points” spell. Up until OoP, Hermione functioned primarily as Harry’s defender, his protector, his guide, if you will. After the events of OoP, however, it is my opinion that she will assume an even more dominant role in Harry’s life—that she will increasingly be written as a partner and that it is this role that will eventually give her full access to Harry’s heart.

Remember the Runes O.W.L. result?

’How were the Runes?’ said Ron, yawning and stretching.
‘I mistranslated ehwaz,’ said Hermione furiously ‘It means partnership, not defense.’ I mixed it up with eihwaz.’- OWLs, p. 715, US Edition

I think what comes next is also a major clue that we may have overlooked:

“Ah, well, said Ron lazily, “that’s only one mistake, isn’t it, you’ll still get—“
“Oh, shut up,” said Hermione angrily, “it could mean the difference between a pass and a fail.”


A failure? This is the girl who gets 300%. No, I think this particular “pass/fail” has to do with life–-especially when we tie it in with all Umbridge’s rumblings about there being no connections with school and real life. I think what JKR is saying is if Hermione doesn’t realize that Harry needs a partner and not a defender, it will mean his life and thus victory for Voldemort. To a certain extent, IMO, this transformation of their relationship has already begun. In OoP, we saw several instances of Hermione functioning as Harry’s equal partner, with a blending of their respective talents to achieve a common goal.

I believe that this concept will be carried out to another, more esoteric level in future books, with Hermione becoming increasingly a viable part of him. LOL, she’s already in his head, she is practically there already :D . Harry needs the camaraderie of friends, yes, but, more importantly, he needs the love of one. He kept missing Venus, during his astronomy practical O.W.L. remember? You know, Venus who is always associated with romantic love? And what does love and partnership create other than a marriage? This is not to say that JKR will actually marry two seventeen-year-olds. But she has been, I think, slowly developing a background that makes a deep, abiding love between two teenagers entirely believable. And it is this connection, which implies a oneness, a common purpose and goal that just might be the key to Voldemort’s ultimate defeat and impart new sight to the wizarding world.

Cheers!
Nia

:clap: :clap: You always express things brilliantly, Nia.

Ok everyone, this is how I see it. I've read all five books and I see quite a lot happening as far as relationships go.

Ron most definitely has feelings for Hermione. He's really obvious. With the way he acts around her it's so hard not to see it. Hermione on the other hand isn't returning those feelings. I think she's got more feelings for Harry. And Harry has feelings for Hermione. He just hasn't realized it yet. So we'll see what happens in the last two books. Maybe Ron and Hermione will get together, but in the end, I feel very strongly that it will be Harry and Hermione.

Just a question.....I'd like to see quotes, or something, that proves Harry has feelings for Hermione in canon, please.

Excellent posts FP, Turambar, Evaluna, noddwyd, sone, Nia and the rest of the H/Hr crew.

Just a question.....I'd like to see quotes, or something, that proves Harry has feelings for Hermione in canon, please.

Quotes are too misleading and ambigious to prove Harry has feelings for Hermione in canon or anything else for that matter.


But all that there is too it is a great FRIENSHIP that’s all. The same friendship that Ron and Hermione have. But the difference is that I clearly see that R/Hr have romantic feelings between each other.

I already answer that question a few pages back when I made that same question.

I don’t believe that up until book 5 H/Hr have romantic feelings and after book 5. I don’t think they every will. H/Hr are great platonic friends. Changing that will be ruining their friendship. JKR made it clear for me with her writing and her words that H/Hr are platonic friends. I have no reason to doubt her and I’m not planning too.

I like happy endings and I like OBHWF just because the books are dark it doesn’t mean that the ending has to be one huge mess and one unhappy one. At the end of every book JKR ties up the loose ends that she can with a great big bow and hand it to us. Why can’t she do the same with the final, final ending? This is literature not real life, as much as JKR tries to resemble real life there are still some aspects that clearly scream out that this is still a book. If I wanted to read about Unrequited love and family mess and problems not resolved. I can open the Dear Anne column in the paper everyday. I like literature on a different level. Emma is neatly bow on top ending and Emma is one novel that even H/Hr’s like (I personally didn’t but that’s another story). I think (I haven’t finished so feel free to correct me) Pride and Prejudice is another one, many novels have neatly bow on top endings and most people like it. My point is that most literature ties up loose ends and leaves everything neatly put and happy. I believe that this is one of the reasons why JKR will stop at 7. Not because Harry will die but because she feels that her ending is perfect and making it into a sequal will ruin the magic of the first seven. If that would be the case. I have to agree with her on that.


Okay you have a set mind that you do not doubt that H/Hr won't happen, but have you ever wondered what happened if they did in any way? What then? It seems like you have a set partnership in your opinion. Have you ever wondered if other relationships did happen rather than the one your so set on?

Its like you ask about the ending, why can't she do the same with the final, final ending? so why can't she pair H/Hr at the end as well? And to answer your question, yes she could do that in the final ending, she could do lots of things with her books even though it is already mapped out already or most of it anyway. I don't doubt there could be a OBHWF at the ending just that IMO it is too perfect to happen. I like happy endings as well, but some things can be 'too' perfect if you get what I mean.

Changing their relationship from friendship to a proper gf/bf relationship could ruin their friendship but it could also enhance it, either way if they do get together we will see. Though I highly doubt that it would ruin their friendship considering how good their friendship is already.

Regarding that platonic quote by JKR, she says that Harry and Hermione are platonic friends. Yet there are two definations of platonic is there not? She may have said that they are platonic but you do not know which defination she meant. She can be quite cunning when in interviews, an example of this is when she quoted that in OOTP a 'fan' of Harry's will die. So everyone started making predictions that Hagrid, the Weasleys or Colin Creevy would die, how often was Sirius brought up? zinch, or hardly anything. JKR could be doing the same thing for that platonic quote.

But as I said above, quotes can be too misleading and/or ambigious so I disregard them and only regard what happens in canon.

Nia

I believe that with her awareness, Hermione will be his ultimate guide not only of this understanding of himself, but also of the full extent of his power. Hermione appears time and again as Harry’s guide--the one who points him in the right direction. This is most graphically illustrated in PoA when she uses the impervious charm on his glasses to help him see in a rainstorm and in GoF with her “four-points” spell. Up until OoP, Hermione functioned primarily as Harry’s defender, his protector, his guide, if you will. After the events of OoP, however, it is my opinion that she will assume an even more dominant role in Harry’s life—that she will increasingly be written as a partner and that it is this role that will eventually give her full access to Harry’s heart.

Hang on. This is based on your conclusion of how Hermione will "rise" into Harry's heart. So you're saying that Hermione will become Harry's guide, that she will be the sole person who pushes him into the "warrior zone"? Sorry but I entirely disagree. You have given examples of Hermione helping Harry to accomplish objectives, but so have many others. Why shouldn't the others have an equal claim to the so called prestigious "warrior's guide" position? Like Ron for example?

Hermione functions primarily as Harry's defender, his guide and so on? Yeah, she does. But Ron does too. Dumbledore does too. Sirius did too. Sirius risked his life and everything he had for Harry, and he gave his life for Harry. All the good people in the Wizarding World obviously will function as Harry's defenders as he is their only hope, their saviour (as foretold by the prophecy). So please explain how this makes a case for H/Hr, because it clearly doesn't. It could be easily that Hermione gives her life for Harry and kaput! H/Hr goes out of the window. (Admitedly, so does R/Hr. :p)

Since you've enlightened us all with your opinion, allow me to enlighten you with mine.

In my opinion Hermione is heading for a fall. A big one. She has been right TOO MANY times. She is heading for a big humiliation- and I think this will affect Harry- i.e. she lets him down. I think Ron will be there to comfort her. *** for tat.

Signing out,

Avada

Hello just replying to Gilann's post

Hi Gilyann, you said:
Well why can't they sit there quietly doing their stuff but toguether. Couples do that all the time. This books are in Harry's point of view if you like to see a conversation between Hermione and Ron I'm afraid it would be impossible as he is our PoV character. Ron is doing his homework and obviously he doesn't need Hermione's help because he is doing it alone. Hermione is there writting her letter. I mean they could easily go to each others room and not be there. But obviously they prefer to be there toguether doing their stuff than each on their room doing their stuff.
Yes i understand what you mean, but obviously if JK wanted to foreshadow R/Hr she should have had them deep in a conversation, it would have been a lot more easier to spot and if they were i do not doubt that R/Hr shippers would be using that as evedence for their ship and i would agree because it would prove that the two get on great and can have nice lovely little chats, Harry doesn't need to be there for us to understand what would be going on, Jk can write it in aftewards for e.g Ron says 'Hermione and i were having a interesting conversation last night about the schools treatment of the giant squid' Ok thats unlikely they would talk about that, but you get the idea. Even if Harry's not there to see it but JK figured it was important to get the point across that R/Hr are good for one another, then she would have had Harry told about their so-called-bonding, but that never happens, not that i can think of anyway, don't have my books at the moment sorry, but if you can find anything... then i will see.
Yes that's one of the many jobs, side of the trio, role or whatever you want to call it. One of his roles is there to put less weight into things and make it less heavy. Clearly there Hermione was making less traumatic the experience for Harry.
Yes but its not always Hermione's job to act like she's just sat on a drawing pin (excuse the pun), to act so uptight about everything, considering this wasn't a horrible subject to discuss, i mean Harry's just had his first kiss, he maybe in shock at the moment but its not as though he's going to remember that as being the worst time of his life. Why couldn't Hermione at least act seemlingly happy for Harry, instead of saying it in a formal manner, that says to me that she's trying to disguise her voice because theres no need to act 'businesslike' in a time like this.
Does Hermione needs to run a newsstand on this things? No, she probably suspected but she is not goint to tell Ron who probably is going to be clueless and probably say something that ruins it. Actually Hermione and Ron do discouss Harry's private life without him.
Ron is going to be clueless? that makes no difference boys usually are at that age anyway but they still talk about it. Maybe Hermione didn't want to talk about it so thats why she did't mention it to Ron, because she didn't want to hear all about Harry and Cho together, IMO only though.
I don't see her as being not happy. Wasn't this also after Ron send his Ink bottle flying or something? I would have kick Ron.
Hermione's obviously looking at Harry when she's frowning, it doesn't say so but you can interpret that both Ron and Hermione are looking at him. if Hermione was looking at Ron and the ink then it would have been mentioned.
Got from OoP. I'm sure he didn't. It died with that kiss. What shots Harry's crush dead is that kiss. Harry's crush was an image on his head. When Cho failed at his image it's when the crush dies out. Simply because she's no longer is the way he wanted to be.
Ok iv never thought of that before, i don't agree with it completely but anyway...
Also didn't you mention that Hermione wasn't interested in the conversation and was on her letter back. Because her absenminded respond says that she was writting but since she is not deaf and the common Room is empty. She had to hear what they were saying.
My point i was trying to make is that Hermione wanted to pretend that she was no longer interested, by returning to the letter, but she clearly is not really consentrating on the letter because she answers in on the part of the conversation, you'd would have thought that a girl who has no feelings for Harry would have stayed out of ('of course your not'). She is not deaf, true but if she was relly consentrating on the letter she would not have taken in what they were saying. This is just my opinon though.

Thanks Gilyann, sorry if i make no sense i'm having to right this very quickly, i'm at college and i don't really want my tutor to know what i'm doing :shrug: .

Great post Nia, evaluna, Buckbeak

Just a question.....I'd like to see quotes, or something, that proves Harry has feelings for Hermione in canon, please.

You can't prove that Ron has feelings for Hermione, either. Like we can prove Hermione has feelings for Ron or for Harry. The only thing what can proved is that Harry liked Cho, Cho liked Harry and Ginny did like Harry. Thats all.

I have to say Buckbeak brings good points about Ron and Hermione which is like my thinking right now. If Ron wanted to speak with Hermione, Harry didn't find them silent. Its quiet interesting that in the past like so many stated that Ron and Hermione are so many times together without Harry but aren't able to speak with each other about a topic which isn't connected to Harry. Thats strange. Its not said that there was an awkward silence between them it was rather that Ron was more interes in his homework, very strange for someone who fancy Hermione since GoF, as to speak with Hermione. She is more interes in her letter as to speak with Ron. As fast Harry join them Hermione looks up and speaks. See the topic is now there. Even as Ron and Hermione were in PoA alone in Hogsmead was Harry topic. Harry is always topic between them.
In this light looks the Yule Brawl very much different. There again was it about Harry. Now what did Ron say to Hermione at the end of the Yule Ball? Was it about himself or about Harry? If we look in the past and in OotP is it and was it always about Harry. There is not one scene where they argue only about Ron, about his doing, about his feelings, about his family. So I guess it was again about Harry.
Its not very difficult to create another scene where Ron and Hermione speak with each other and Harry steps in as they were in the middle of a conversation about Krum or Ron's quiditch play or anything like that but this don't happens.
Its quiet opposite they are silent and don't speak to each other and there is no sign that there is any need to speak with each other.

About since whan I "wanted" H/Hr in canon? This is a wrong question I didn't want that they will get together its in canon that there is a building up to this. So I didn't choice.

Nia,

It’s a good, well written post. No doubt about that. One minor point before I address the crux of it.

Without knowing whether your school is a demographically representative sample, I would be very wary about drawing statistical conclusions.

On this point:

I truly believe that the entire series is about one phenomenal boy’s journey from darkness, through a deeper darkness to light, and that the end will inform us that the only true magic; after all that he learned and accomplished in the wizarding world was within his possession all along. Harry has already perceived what his magical limitations would be should he engage Voldemort in a one-to-one confrontation. He will possibly learn more Defense Against the Dark Arts, but, he will always know that he cannot kill Voldemort with one of the UC’s and still remain Harry.
I see the series as a much bigger picture than just one boy’s journey. I see it as a clear social comment underpinned by an equally clear moral tale. Simply this – a story about the quest for union and harmony gained through the virtues of tolerance and reconciliation drawing on core values and beliefs. The absence of that unity and harmony in the status quo is presented on many levels throughout the series, right from the very outset, where we learn of the Dursley’s loathing of Harry not because of who he is, but because of what he is. We proceed to see it presented in the relationship between human wizards and other magical creatures, not because of who the other is, but because of what the other is. And of course we see it presented in the great divide of a thousand years between pure bloods and muggle-born.

Of course, Harry is the boy at the centre of this tale. But the tale itself is about far more than just Harry. I don’t wish to understate his role, but he is merely our window into this world, and I believe that the big mistake made by the H/Hr ship is to take this Harry-centric view of the story, at the risk of missing the bigger picture. The understandable conclusion one may be drawn to by adopting the Harry-centric view is that the romantic sub-plot is a critical element of the main plot. However, by adopting the universal view the romantic sub-plot may be seen as an allegory of the main plot.

Not only do I not see the romantic sub-plot credibly forming a crucial element of the main plot (bearing in mind the messages concerning unity, harmony, reconciliation and tolerance), I do not see how H/Hr can be perceived as an allegorical representation of that. I do however see that allegory in Ron and Hermione. Just as JK has painted a picture of antagonism between pure-bloods and muggle-born, or humans and other magical creatures, or wizards and muggles, so she has carefully painted a picture of antagonism between Ron and Hermione. Just as JK has painted a picture of that antagonism being borne of superficial differences (what someone is vs. who someone is) so she has painted a clear picture that whatever differences Ron and Hermione share, they are but superficial. Just as JK has alerted us to the notion that it is core values that will overcome such superficial differences, so she has alerted us to the core values of friendship, trust, truth and loyalty that both Ron and Hermione display as individuals.

'Differences of language and habit are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open'

Before Harry’s eyes, the Ron and Hermione situation is the wizarding world situation writ large.

And where does Harry come into all this? Cupid’s arrow perhaps? Who knows? Maybe the allegory will be maintained and just as the love he has within him brings unity to the wizarding world so it brings union to those closest to him.

I believe that this concept will be carried out to another, more esoteric level in future books, with Hermione becoming increasingly a viable part of him. LOL, she’s already in his head, she is practically there already. Harry needs the camaraderie of friends, yes, but, more importantly, he needs the love of one. He kept missing Venus, during his astronomy practical O.W.L. remember? You know, Venus who is always associated with romantic love? And what does love and partnership create other than a marriage? This is not to say that JKR will actually marry two seventeen-year-olds. But she has been, I think, slowly developing a background that makes a deep, abiding love between two teenagers entirely believable. And it is this connection, which implies a oneness, a common purpose and goal that just might be the key to Voldemort’s ultimate defeat and impart new sight to the wizarding world.
Where I have difficulty with your position, Nia, is that your conceptualisation gives rise to your conclusion. The concept is in itself praiseworthy, but even if we accept the concept, we are still left with the search for clues as to whether it is indeed Hermione who is to provide that partnership for Harry. Which really just brings us back to examining whether Harry and Hermione really do like each other as more than friends.

But as I always say – this is Predictions and Theories.

An absolutely stunning post, Davydee! I cannot offer any more than my humble applause- :clap:

I particularly like this bit.

Just as JK has painted a picture of antagonism between pure-bloods and muggle-borns, or humans and other magical creatures, or wizards and muggles, so she has carefully painted a picture of antagonism between Ron and Hermione. Just as JK has painted a picture of that antagonism being borne of superficial differences (what someone is vs. who someone is) so she has painted a clear picture that whatever differences Ron and Hermione share, they are but superficial. Just as JK has alerted us to the notion that it is core values that will overcome such superficial differences, so she has alerted us to the core values of friendship, trust, truth and loyalty that both Ron and Hermione display as individuals.

Perfectly true. There are dozens of examples of this- for example- Ron and Hermione's stance on the issue of House-Elves, where they display huge differences in their views, but deep down, their core values are identical- both value friendship and loyalty.

May I also point out something very startling- focusing on what DD said (in italics)-

Just as JK has painted a picture of antagonism between pure-bloods and muggle-borns

Note something. Ron is a pure blood while Hermione is a mud blood. Does it not make sense that their love, their unification ties in with the overall theme of the series, as neatly put by DD?

story about the quest for union and harmony gained through the virtues of tolerance and reconciliation drawing on core values and beliefs.

Ron and Hermione, if they get together, will have achieved union and hermione through their tolerance for each other's differences, but will have repeatedly reconciled through their core values and beliefs, despite their apparent huge difference in background and upbringing.

I remember something from my much-disputed five stage theory. It was about the POA argument between Ron and Hermione, and how the reconcilation between them seemed, at least to me, a turning point in their relationship.

Allow me to analyse that again, drawing from the above.

Ron loses his temper with Hermione over the pets dispute.

Ron's view is that Crookshanks is purposely attempting to kill Scabbers and that Hermione is doing little to prevent it, infuriating him- he feels angry at Hermione's lack of acknowlegement of the high probability that he is right, and that Scabbers has indeed been killed by Crookshanks.

Hermione's view is that there is no overwhelming proof that Crookshanks has eaten Scabbers and Ron is being prejudiced against Crookshanks for stupid reasons. She feels that as long as there is no concrete proof, Crookshanks should be assumed "innocent".

Two very different views. Neither acknowledging each other's standpoint, refusing to budge. Each trying to force each other's view. Exactly how wars start.

However, when Ron shows kindness and loyalty to Hagrid, Hermione's stubborness and refusal to deviate from her view is ripped apart. Ron has shown the same core values as her. This touches her, and reconcilation follows.

To recap;

Two very different views. Similiar core values drawn upon, then reconcilation.

Now, let us see the similiarity to the below.

quest for union and harmony gained through the virtues of tolerance and reconciliation drawing on core values and beliefs

I rest my case.

Signing out,

Avada

P.S Another round of applause for Davydee for an awesome post. :clap: Hope my additions were of use.

I like to make clear that Harrys journey into the magical world is in other words nothing other as seeking after love and to understand why his parents had to die. See if you take it in a psychological way than you clearly see the path of this books. How this books starts is with the fact that Harry did grown up by his relative, which don't love him, and with the knowing that his parents are dead.
Its like a syndrome which some childrens have after a dead of they parents thats very classical how this journey starts. You can say Harrys journey is a way to understand all this its a strange mirror of the real world. Everything starts with Harrys feeling to be unloved this lead to the conclusion he has in his soul demons. What every child has if it lived like Harry eleven years without any kind of love. He don't has friends so no escape of this feeling which are there.

Right away to Harrys birthday, his eleven birthday this implieds its a very important birthday because you start to be a teenager, he get to know his parents didn't just die for nothing. They did it to rescue him, because they loved him and he did destroy the demon Voldemort. Thats important because in the past this demon did just seek in the underground this say in Harry himself. Because this demon (Voldemort) is nothing more as someone who kills love and innocents. Something is slowly killing inside of Harry this love bit by bit.
Before its too late Harry get new informations about his past, about his real life.

He is famous in this new world. Everybody knows him. Thats easy its his world off course he has to be famous though he don't like it to be famous. Again this can be explained. Harry want nothing more as to be just a normal boy with a family which loves him but he hasn't and that he dislike, hate this fact. He hate the fact that he is famous because of not having a family because he did defead the demon (Voldemort) who was seeking and killing love. Everybody did win but Harry lose at this.
In a mind of a child is it always like that people around have won and itself lose just everything. Harrys journey begins in this world and his seeking to find love starts.
He find friendship in Ron and later in Hermione, too. If I had enough time and probably more knowledge about psychological I'm sure I could explain every adventure in this books and why they are there. But I make it short now because I think you get what I implied. Its that HP isn't a book about magic not in the slightest way. Its a book about losing, seeking and finding overall about understanding. I will picture it for you right now what I mean: Its that if you like you could say somewhere in england sits a boy who create his own world, magical world just to understand Why! and get an answer how he get out of this misery. If you know the "Never ending Story" Than you know what I mean.

So for short Harry is in general seeking after love in this books and as he started to get closer to his goal. Guess what did happen? Voldemort did come back. If you take GoF as I do than you know its true. In GoF Harry get Hermione alone to know. He is impressed and he see her at the Yule Ball in a different way. Thats not all in task 2 does something happen whats important. Its as Harry decide to not to go back with his hostage (Ron). He turns around and want Hermione rescue, too. Though he know Krum is on his way. Only not whan he will come. Harry himself needed already about 30 minutes what does he think can someone be that long underwater? Short He didn't want leave her without knowing she is save.
After this task we get another picture and that is Harry is embrassed that he did believe in this song. Is it only that or is it Hermiones questions, too?

If we take my conclusion from earlier to hand than we could say that Harry will find love in the most unlikely person he meets on the train. This points to Hermione. At the beginning of PS/SS is Hermione the most unlikely person who could be at the end of book7 that what Harry did seek for. She isn't stunned pretty, she isn't stunned nice and she isn't girlish. She is rather a bossy know-it-all with rather large fron theets. She jumps directly into your mind and you can picture her very well.
Its like a treasue which need to seek and find till it starts to open. This did happen in GoF. Harry did seek after Ron but finds to his surprise Hermione too. So we can guess Harry did find her in GoF but only in OotP its starts to open.
This is a methapor and as such can it only Hermione who is the one who has this love which Harry seeks.

Voldemort seems to be the mainplot but he is in real just a demon who kills love and innocent like Sirius(love) and Cedric(innocent). Its not about Voldemort its about Harry and his journey in the magic world and its exist only one magic and thats love.

Daveydee and Ak i'm not really sure what you mean when you say that R/Hr as a couple could show some sort of unification between the Pure-bloods and Muggle-borns, your saying it as though a wizard and a muggle-born have never gotten together before, which of course is not true (Lilly and James). I'm sorry i'm very slow today so if you could clarify on what you really mean for me, that would be great.
Also Harry is pretty much pure-blood anyway, this is kind of a confusing subject and it all depends on whether you believe just because his mother was muggle-born that makes Harry half-blood or because she was also a witch it makes him full-blood, i believe the latter becuase he's unlike Seamus Finigan whose mother is a witch but his father is a complete muggle, so Seamus is half-blood, oh its oh so confusing.

This debatte about Pureblood and mudblood we had already but I will give some different views.
First it wouldn't show much if Ron comes together with Hermione because the Weasleys are famous as muggle-lovers. It would nobody bring to think. Rather if Malfoy come together with Hermione.

If something comes near to this is if the hero, the defeader of Voldemort, comes together with Hermione. by the way Harry is halfblood.
But the point is that the hero don't choice the highest magic line he choice the lowest and Hermione as mudblood is low.

Thanks, Turambar, V@sh, Flying Phoenix!and Daveydee ;) I'll respond you your issues later.


Posted by Avada Kedavra:
Hang on. This is based on your conclusion of how Hermione will "rise" into Harry's heart. So you're saying that Hermione will become Harry's guide, that she will be the sole person who pushes him into the "warrior zone"? Sorry but I entirely disagree. You have given examples of Hermione helping Harry to accomplish objectives, but so have many others. Why shouldn't the others have an equal claim to the so called prestigious "warrior's guide" position? Like Ron for example?

I think you misunderstand. This is the “Predictions and Theories” Thread and I was making a SPECULATION based on what I perceived as a contiguous string of clues from PS/SS through OoP. And I did not say she would be his only guide. IMO, he will desperately need the help of Lupin and his other friends to assume his ultimate place, but that guide of the soul has to be someone who clearly sees Harry's soul. No one but Hermione has this distinction in canon. It has been established in OoP, that Hermione has become much more perceptive about Harry than even Dumbledore. I refer you to the greeting scene at 12 Grimmauld Place . During the entirety of that book, her instincts about him became increasingly keen just as it was shown that others did not see things clearly when it came to Harry. (Sight references again)

I also owe my speculation to what I perceive is ONE of several of JKR’s guiding paradigms, Campbell’s “Hero’s Journey” It is a story model that is so pervasive that it is found in every culture on earth. Nearly every popular film follows it to some extent, and JKR has followed it (with quirks) in all of her books so far. It is much too extensive to delineate here, but I will provide a link so you can see for yourself. HERE (http://www.apocprod.com/Pages/Hero/Take_the_Hero's_Journey.htm)
The books run in mini cycles of this model, but I believe that the greater epic is also following this pattern, with Harry’s fifth year serving as what Campbell terms the “belly of the whale.” In the single book cycles, Hermione has served the role of “goddess.” It is my belief, that with Harry’s incessant focus on her in OoP, she will continue to serve that role for the septology. I read literature all the time as part of my job, but I have never come across a story that is so utterly fascinating in its twists and fresh packaging of time worn themes.

Now as far as Harry the Warrior is concerned, who says Harry will ever have to be a "warrior?" Of course, JKR may go the old, tired route and have Harry blaze it out with Voldemort in a battle royale that rivals anything we've ever seen in the theater, but I think it was very telling that the climax of OoP turned into a tragedy because Harry did the expected, noble heroic thing and flew to London to save Sirius. Hermione has already begun to think “outside the box” with her renunciation of the interhouse Quidditch matches, and Harry’s “saving people thing.” I’m wondering what will she renounce next. Now, if you notice, there is no one else that questions Harry about the wisdom of going to London, not one. If Hermione is not a good enough guide, then pray tell, who is?

Avada Kedavra
Hermione functions primarily as Harry's defender, his guide and so on? Yeah, she does. But Ron does too. Dumbledore does too. Sirius did too. Sirius risked his life and everything he had for Harry, and he gave his life for Harry. All the good people in the Wizarding World obviously will function as Harry's defenders as he is their only hope, their saviour (as foretold by the prophecy). So please explain how this makes a case for H/Hr, because it clearly doesn't. It could be easily that Hermione gives her life for Harry and kaput! H/Hr goes out of the window. (Admitedly, so does R/Hr. :p)

My comments were an attempt to SPECULATE on possible meanings of the runes error in the O.W.L.S, chapter, nothing more. Hermione confused defense with partnership. I think it is an important clue especially given her comments about passing and failing. Also, it appears to be a companion clue with Harry's improbable mistake of labelling Venus (the brightest object in the sky next to the moon) as Mars. Yes, it could possibly refer to Hermione's death, but that would not preclude a Harry/Hermione romance before her tragic sacrificial end. I prefer to be a bit more optimistic about the eventual ending and a lot less melodramatic.

Avada Kedavra:

Since you've enlightened us all with your opinion, allow me to enlighten you with mine.

Avada Kedavra, I am here on this thread because I value the opinions of others. You never need to take an adversarial approach with me. I am more than willing to listen and to give credit to good ideas no matter what the ship. If you perceive things differently, it is within your rights to state them, but without the “warrior’s stance,” please.

Posted by Avada Kedavra:
In my opinion Hermione is heading for a fall. A big one. She has been right TOO MANY times. She is heading for a big humiliation- and I think this will affect Harry- i.e. she lets him down. I think Ron will be there to comfort her. *** for tat.


Ah, so I see you think Hermione's too smart for her own good, eh? Impudent, know-it-all hussy needs to be put into her proper place so Ron can be the man in the situation? Knock the wench down a few notches, that will show her! :lol: Well, Hermione may indeed be proven wrong in the future as she already has on several occasions in the past, God knows she is in no way perfect, but she IS amazingly perceptive. But if JKR wants to write Ron/Hermione, I can see a half dozen ways she can do that without Hermione OR Ron being humiliated. But IMO it will follow patterns seen all the time in young people’s literature. It is my hope, however, that JKR has something more lofty and meaningful to say about love and friendship.

Cheers!
Nia

Buckbeak

That's not the point. The point being that despite their different backgrounds- Ron being pure-blood, Hermione being mud blood, they still can come together.

Some people say that it's because the Weasleys are muggle-lovers and therefore my point is invalid- BUT that's exactly the point.

Despite the different backgrounds, despite the differences in magicial blood, the Grangers and the Weasleys are close anyway- they disregard the "blood"- which ties in with what Davydee said earlier.

Ron and Hermione are aganotistic not because of their wizard race but because of their different views. So Ron and Hermione are a model example of Pure/Mud Blood Relations- how they should be construed- i.e. they disagree because of their differences in opinion and not because of their racism. Furthermore, JKR is showing that even with differences in opinion, when the same core values are shared and drawn upon, reconcilation is inveitable and even stronger friendships can be bonded.

Signing out,

Avada

P.S

I think to qualify as a pure blood both of your parents have to have wizard parentage for a certain number of generations. If it is less than that, you're half blood, or if you have one pure blood parent and one muggle parent.

Having zero wizard parentage means mudblood.

Therefore Hermione is one, Seamus is a halfblood as he has one half pure blooded, another muggle.

Harry is also halfblood as he has one half pure blooded and the other not so- i.e. only one generation of wizarding parentage (Lily.)

So pure bloodness could orignate from a mudblood, supposing that the spouses of the mudblood marry into pure blood families and the spouses of those marry into pure blood families- I would guess 3 or 4 generations of wizard parentage would be enough to classify as Pure.