Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom part five

Hmm, it's possible some of the people in the background were actually his descendants, not the other way around, you're right. But then, why did it show his parents, in particular? There is really no other way for him to see them again than thorugh death. But he will one day die, just like everyone else, so it could all fit.

Truthfully, I think that what you see in the mirror will change over time. Harry may not see the same thing if he ever looks into the mirror again. Ron may not either. They have matured. Especially Harry. This is another thing that Hermione was mysteriously left out of for whatever reason. We don't know what she would see in the mirror. Maybe it will appear again? It would be interesting, if it did. Dumbledore gave off the impression that he was stealing a few guilty looks into it himself, but he probably doesn't have any sort of obsession with it or anything. Although people do tend to not follow their own advice, sometimes. . . .

Yes, like the boggart - another thing Hermione mysteriously missed out on. I doubt if Harry would see a dementor now.
I guess it could be JKR's way of just highlighting Harry's desire for 'family'. That comes across in his relationship with the Weasleys in the early books. I checked the wording on the film version and it's the same.
I suppose it would have seemed a bit strange for Harry, aged 11, to be having visions of a future family so probably his past family represents past and future.

If you are talking about my post ana_banana, I never said that either. You said that Harry has never lied to Ginny. Well what has he had to lie about to Ginny?

He said it wasn't as much fun as having Ron around, it didn't say he wasn't having fun. There is a difference. And you only point out only once he was bored. If he didn't enjoy the company of Hermione, why even be around with her all that time in GOF with the fight with Ron? Harry does enjoy Hermione's company otherwise he wouldn't be around her.

:) I remember saying this in the FAP deathmarch once ^.^ Got my head handed back to me. It was and still believed by a LOT of H/Hr shippers that Harry thought Hermione was boring. I never saw that library scene as that.

I saw the opposite side to this. To me it said that Harry was having fun. He would however be having more fun if Ron was there. But it was more important that Harry said that when you were Hermione's best friend there was more looking through dusty tomes and less laughter. To me that threw out the R/Hr idea that was so prevent then that Harry doesn't like studying as much as Ron doesn't. I think Harry likes it more than Ron, but less than Hermione. But then again who likes studying as much as her ;)

*cuddles Hermione Plushie*

The only thing I can say is that you have to consider that scene on a comparative basis.

Answer a simple question.
Who is the funniest in the books ?

> The twins ?
> Harry ?
> Ron ?
> Hermione ?

To me, it would go the Twins, Harry, Ron and Hermione. But most people seem to think Twins, Ron, Harry, Hermione. So to say that Harry doesn't find Ron funny at all would be pretty stupid. Just because the twins are the funniest in the books doesn't mean that Ron is not funny at all . He is less funny. But still funny :D



Also about the whole "lying" thing.

I am probably alone in this, but I would like to suggest people look what Ron did when Hermione made the hats. Hermione told him to not touch those hats. Ron was dishonest when he uncovered the clothes in the rubbish. How is it good for a relationship to be dishonest with your partner ? IF Ron is allowed to do this, surely Harry is allowed to do the same.... if it can be called the same, since he does hide things from EVERYBODY.


Personally I still see as Harry having more objective view of the whole elf thing. I think he can see both Ron and Hermione have a point. Not all elves need to be liberated. He can see the middle ground while Ron and Hermione can't. *goes hide* Never mind this bit.. ^.^

@ V@ash and everyone on the H/HR side : wondeful posting... :D


hmm.. If anyone is interested to know, I'm not exactly a Harry/Hermione shipper. More of a Harry/Anygirls(s). The boy needs lots of affection I tell you... :D *waves banner for Harry/Hermione/Ginny*

Also about the whole "lying" thing....




Oh, C'mon! I mean, you have to admit that Hermione's doing is completely wrong. And as Ron says, it's unfair if the elves can't see what they're taking. The fact that Ron makes it possible for the elves to see what tey're picking up doesn't mean there's no way he could have a relationship with Hermione. He isn't really hidding anything, because Hermione knows what he thinks of the whole S.P.E.W. thing. Harry does hide the fact that the only elf taking the clothes is Dobby, anyways. I know, one can say that Harry does it because he doesn't want to hurt Hermione's feelings, but, if we're judging on the "reason" basis, both are equally good and right.

By the way... what does "IMO" mean? I sometimes get a litle confussed with your abreviations. This far I do know what h/hr/r/g mean, obviously, and most of the time I an manage to guess (I suppose too that DD means dumbledore?). But that one has really got me lost...

Oh, C'mon! I mean, you have to admit that Hermione's doing is completely wrong.
No I don't. I agree with Hermione's cause. There are lots of rich people out there in the Wizarding world. A lot of them will have houseelves. Is Dobby the ONLY one who is getting abused ? Dobby in book 2 makes it know to us that before the fall of voldemort the elves were abused a lot. But with his fall, things were better. Not as decent as should be. But it was slightly better then. Ron knows this. So does Hermione. The cause that Hermione is fighting for is a good one. Ron refuses to see that elves need protecting or anything close to that. HErmione is not a saint in this matter either. She can't see some elves are being treated properly.

However, I do not think that anyone here would say just because some slave owners in the dark days of US history were good to thier slaves, justified slaving them. Thousands were abused. Thousands were victims. Would you say that what Lincoln did was wrong ? Because he forced slavery off them ?

The diplomatic way would be to start small, and work on a big thing. I would have had preffered if someone out there was shown to be working for the betterment of the elves. Slowly and steadly. And a few extremist to keep up the pressure. Like in the GreenPeace and the their more tamer counterparts in countris where there are Green Parties.

As I've said, just because the slaves might have had been relutant to take it up doesn't mean that they shouldn't have been forced to do so.


And as Ron says, it's unfair if the elves can't see what they're taking. The fact that Ron makes it possible for the elves to see what tey're picking up doesn't mean there's no way he could have a relationship with Hermione. He isn't really hidding anything, because Hermione knows what he thinks of the whole S.P.E.W. thing.

I guess it's just the human part of me. I like to think that anything that is semi-conscious would be allowed to live and out of boange. This idea is somethign that is close to my heart because a lot of the justification of the slavery was that Blacks had no soul. They were not really human.

Elves are thinking creatures. They might not be as smart as a human being but no one has given them a chance to change this.


By the way... what does "IMO" mean?

Sorry, I didn't use that abbreviation. It means " In My Opinion".


I sometimes get a litle confussed with your abreviations. This far I do know what h/hr/r/g mean, obviously, and most of the time I an manage to guess (I suppose too that DD means dumbledore?). But that one has really got me lost...


Err... This is my second post ^.^

HarryHermione/Ginny ---> Threesome. That would be the crude way of putting it, but three of together as a couple unit :D It's a non standard option. There are parts of Africa where this is the norm. There are parts of india where the one woman in between many husband is the norm. There is also the same sex relationships all over the world..

Harry/Anygirls(s) --- That means any Harry/Anygirl relationships, or in which there is more than one girl. :D These are not common in the HP Universe. Mostly because 99% (or there abouts) of the HP writing community is female. Thus the rule of Slash, and Guy/Hermione/Guy... In other fandoms where the male population is the norm, there is much more of the male/female/female fics. --- like Ranma 1/2 . :D

I'm currently reading the book series Wheel of Time. It deals with this type of a relationship. It's got over the span of ten books (each bigger than OotP) that the women in his life decide to hsare him :D.....

Teen male fantasy.... *grins*

:D

Ok so if there is less bickering couldn't it be a sign of their relationship changing. I mean they have prefect duties etc. Why not consider the posibillity that JKR is shifting and changing R/Hr relationship to one that are less bickering and more closer.

Or is that soooo impossible between R/Hr?


No that is not impossible between R/Hr if JKR shifts that way, not at all. I actually think there will be less bickering in the next two books because of Harry's views on it, Ron's growing maturity (hopefully) and the fact that things are going to be darker, the trio will become closer rather than further apart. If R/Hr do become closer, the question is how close do they become? As at the moment I reckon H/Hr have a much closer relationship than R/Hr.


Funny because I clearly got the distintion that Ginny wouldn't mind a R/Hr pair.


Could you please post evidence from the text from a scene or somewhere where it implies this?


Wasn't she being posessed by him? Didn't he said that she struggle and cried?
Who was she dealing with?


She is dealing with the memory of Tom Riddle. Yes she was being posessed by him and yes (if I remember correctly) he did say that she struggled and cried. Yet I see this as no resemblance in how Ginny would understand Harry in any way. But rather Harry would understand how Ginny felt at the end of OOP because that is when he was posessed as well, he now knows what it feels like to be posessed so he can relate to Ginny in that way, not the other way round.


Quote:
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Am I missing something here? Ginny a parseltongue with special powers? How can Tom Riddle "pour a little of his soul" into Ginny when he was gaining from her? The theory is a little far-fetched don't you think?
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That's on CoS. Page 310:

I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her. . ."

Even non H/G shippers wonder what did Ginny gain from Riddle. Look what happend to Harry. In the end Dumbledore tells Harry that the night that Voldemort tried to kill him he put a bit of himself into Harry. Perhaps this is the thing that JKR refers that will play later.


Okay I did miss something then :lol: . I apologise for that. Guess the theory is not so far-fetched as I first believed it to be. But he feeds her secrets, not power and it says he started "pouring a little of my soul back into her", IMO, this passage shows that he reveals secrets about himself rather than anything to do with transferring power. Its like pouring your thoughts out into writing into a diary. Voldemort would not be stupid enough to do it twice.


That's not true.

Lavender Brown, Parvati Patil, Padma Patil, Pansy Parkinson, Hannah Abbot and Susan Bones (I have a friend who really believes that the epilogue will give us Harry/Susan) have all been in 4 books


Your quite right, noddwyd also pointed this to me as well but he had a friend who thought it would be Harry/Parvati :) . It was my misinterpretation of the quote thats all. I think my response was a page or so ago.


Oh, C'mon! I mean, you have to admit that Hermione's doing is completely wrong


I agree with nappa32 of Hermione's actions. Though there is a flaw in it. Hermione motivations to free the house-elves are a good cause, it is morally and ethically right to try and free them from 'slavery' as she calls it. But what she doesn't understand is the nature of the house-elves as a race, what they do and what they enjoy. This is where she - from the muggle world - differ from Ron. Hermione has or would of been brought up in a world where there is such thing as slavery, so she would feel right to help out on a similar cause in the wizarding world.

However, Ron living in the wizarding world for so long, would of recognise house-elves love to cater for their masters, and obey them. That is they're job and they enjoy doing it. So in a way both Ron and Hermione are correct in different ways. I also think Hermione was influenced a little to see how happy Dobby was after he was freed from the Malfoys - and who can blame him.

Harry actually goes about this much like a mediator and is quite good with both Ron and Hermione views. He knows well enough not to bother the house-elves when they take orders from they're masters, but he also knows that Dobby is different because of his treatment from the Malfoys and this is one of the reasons why Hermione might of begun S.P.E.W as well. So while he might disagree slightly on Hermione's actions in S.P.E.W at the beginning, he doesn't hold a grudge against her like Ron.

I agree with nappa32 of Hermione's actions. Though there is a flaw in it. Hermione motivations to free the house-elves are a good cause, it is morally and ethically right to try and free them from 'slavery' as she calls it. But what she doesn't understand is the nature of the house-elves as a race, what they do and what they enjoy. This is where she - from the muggle world - differ from Ron. Hermione has or would of been brought up in a world where there is such thing as slavery, so she would feel right to help out on a similar cause in the wizarding world.

I knew I forgot to say what was wrong with Hermione's point of view. ^.^ This is what I was saying. There are two extremes in this case. One is where Ron and people who like the way things are now that way it to say this way. Ignoring the possibility that cases like Dobby are happening. There are quite a few well to do families in the wizarding world. A lot of them are Slyths. While not are evil, they are the worst we've seen so far in terms of averages. The likelyhood is that there is more cases than just those ones. Because remember the statue at the MoM ? -- All those creatures looking up at the wizard reverndly ? and Dumbledore's speech about how few would treat a "lower" species in a way that Harry did. And it showed Harry's character. Well, my point is that elves are beig mistreaded. What Hermione is doing is right, becuase if all the elves are freed, then they would not be subject to the masters whim. They can't just bang their head in the oven. Their masters can't just tell them to hurt themselves to hurt themselves.

I think Hermione's position in wanting them to be like humans in the society is a bit much. BUT If Hermione didn't campign for what she is doing, then no one would be doing ANYTHING to better things for them. People like Umbridge at much too many in the wizarding world. That is where the idea of the self glorifying statue came from. This might lead to one day a compromise, but without someone wanting the exact opposite, you're likely not to get a middleground in a compromise.


Dumbledore pays Dobby. He still works and loves to serve, but he is not hurting hismelf for something that he has no control over. :) And I for one am glad this happened. It shows that freeing the elves is the ONLY right thing. If the wizarding house is rich enough to have one -- they can certainly pay a small wage to them after freeing them.

Well, my point is that elves are beig mistreaded. What Hermione is doing is right, because if all the elves are freed, then they would not be subject to the masters whim. They can't just bang their head in the oven. Their masters can't just tell them to hurt themselves to hurt themselves.


It is right, but not all elves hurt themselves because of their masters since we do not know the treatment of all elves in general. It seems like so far the masters that cause elves to hurt themselves are ones of dark wizards. I agree with the rest you said though. Anyway this is a little off topic of the romance thread and probably should be discuss on another thread :) .

It is right, but not all elves hurt themselves because of their masters since we do not know the treatment of all elves in general. It seems like so far the masters that cause elves to hurt themselves are ones of dark wizards. I agree with the rest you said though. Anyway this is a little off topic of the romance thread and probably should be discuss on another thread :) .

I think there is a general attitude in the Wizarding world that all other magical creature are below the human one. The attitude of Umbridge, Fudge, Lucius all lead me to think that.

I do think I'm getting off topic now. ^.^ will stop.


On topic >>
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"Unusual" is the word that Hermione used to describe Luna's father's paper, when she didn't want to insult Luna. She used the same word to describe the perfume. Doesn't that make the R/Hr case weak now that Hermione " said " she doesnt' like the perfume ? We knew Ron liked her possibly before. This imply more to that. But doesnt' this imply that Hermione's not liking either Ron's advances or she doesn't care ?

I will apologise in advance if this has been discussed already ^.^


NAPPA
( Hermione/Harry/Cho/Ginny/Alicia/Katie/Angelina/Susan/Luna/Parvati/Padma/Fleur shipper )

Great post to you all. I liked the way how nappa32 did discribe the SPEW issuse and why its right. By the way this african livestyle needs a ship name, or? :lol:

I have a question, it's a bit general but has implications for shipping: does Harry's vision in the Mirror of Erised in PS mean that he desires to know and be with his family (who are all dead) or that he desires a family of his own?


Its a desire to have a family by his own or rather someone who loves him. Thats how I interpret it. He seeks after something what calls love. Not friendship-love Its more what he desire. He want beloved in a way which include only him and what is from him(this say if he has a wife in future, his childrens)

Now Ron did get nearlly everything he saw in the mirror. He is prefect, had won the Q-cup. Left only out to be Headboy and Captian.
What did get Harry? He did get Sirius but he isn't anymore and he wasn't really that after what Harrys heart did or do desire.
This implied Harry will find it in book6 or 7.

He have to find it because only with this he can defead Voldemort. I know you say Its not true or it can't be. I tell you It can because Sirius was only a tiny part of his desire. But If Harrys desire are coming true his heart will be full of love. Alone Harrys love for Sirius did bring Voldemort away from Harry. What do you think can do If Harrys deepest desire came true? If he find love?

African style ? --- yes :D

HMS. Living Vicariously Through Harry :D -- that is my name for it. The site coming soon. http://snogwarts.org ^.^

"Unusual" is the word that Hermione used to describe Luna's father's paper, when she didn't want to insult Luna. She used the same word to describe the perfume. Doesn't that make the R/Hr case weak now that Hermione " said " she doesnt' like the perfume ? We knew Ron liked her possibly before. This imply more to that. But doesnt' this imply that Hermione's not liking either Ron's advances or she doesn't care ?

I will apologise in advance if this has been discussed already ^.^
It has been, but not to worry.

The feeling was that the mistake should not be made of interpreting the same word in the same way where that word is used on more than one occasion. Particularly if, as in this case, that word can have both positive and negative connotations.

Clearly 'unusual' when directed at Mr Lovegood's Quibbler is a thinly veiled insult. When describing Ron's perfume, however, it is an understated compliment, IMO. It would hardly be a fair reflection on Hermione's character to think that she could be so ungrateful for her gift that she would insult it.

Welcome to the forums & the thread, btw, nappa. Be careful about the sort of subject matter you are referencing at the foot of your posts. Remember this is a family-friendly forum. :D

It has been, but not to worry.

The feeling was that the mistake should not be made of interpreting the same word in the same way where that word is used on more than one occasion. Particularly if, as in this case, that word can have both positive and negative connotations.

Clearly 'unusual' when directed at Mr Lovegood's Quibbler is a thinly veiled insult. When describing Ron's perfume, however, it is an understated compliment, IMO. It would hardly be a fair reflection on Hermione's character to think that she could be so ungrateful for her gift that she would insult it.

I sure that one should point out nappa 32 that this is generally the understanding of the HMS Heron (Hr/R shippers in this forum) and is not accepted by all or even most of the other shippers. The HMS Harmony (H/Hr shippers) do not see the word unusual as a insult in either case but rather Hermione's attempts to be polite to Luna and Ron.

I however have a somewhat independant theory when it comes to the Christmas gifts,

Alot of people pointed to the Christmas gifts as being a sign of shipping so in my usual fashion I went to the book to see what had happened,

Page 503 US version,

"Thanks for the book Harry!" she said happily. "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume is really unusal, Ron.”

Emphasis JKR.

Now at an intial look it doesn't seem to be alot.
1) The Trio has exchanged gifts. This happens every Christmas.
2) Harry has gotten her a book
3) Ron has gotten her perfume
4) Hermione is thanking both boys for their gifts

Now a slightly deeper look,

I notice the word unusual in front of the perfume gift. This is usually not a good thing. Generally when people refer to an unusual gift it doesn't show that they like it alot. This however is based on personal experience and is subject to interpetation.

The book itself "New Theory of Numerology" is interesting. Hermione's favorite subject is Arithmancy and this book clearly seems to be a part of Arithmancy. Hermione told Harry that she loved Arthimancy and that it was her favorite subject. Harry was listening. Knowing that Hermione loves books and Hermione loves Arithmancy, Harry combined the two. I think it also illiustrates that Harry is not as oblivious to Hermione as is often claimed in many debates. She did tell him it was her favorite subject in POA. Harry heard and Harry remembered.

And now for what's truly interesting. The grammar. Hmm the grammar, that sounds weird even to me. :)

*Hawk takes out his old grade school english book*

Now after Hermione speaking to Harry the sentence ends with an exclamation point, twice. While thanking him and while telling us what he gave her.

exclamation point
n (1824): a mark ] used esp. after an interjection or exclamation to indicate forcefulutterance or strong feeling--called also exclamation mark

And now the sentence with Ron's gift ends in a period.
period
1: the completion of a cycle, a series of events, or asingle action: conclusion

So while Harry's gift is being given emphasis, strong feeling, and a forceful utterance, Hermione is truly thanking him for the gift. The perfume comes off as a polite afterthought.

When one combines the fact that Hermione is thanking Harry happily for his gift (forcefully mind you) and then makes a rather quick switch to Ron's gift calling it unusual and ending it with a period it makes the use of unusual seem more polite. However the word unusual, while interesting, is damaging to Hr/R when one looks at the entire scene, puncutation and all.

Cheers!

So are you saying that because Ginny has an ex who ends up with Harry's ex that makes Harry and Ginny like Emma and Knightly? A bit convoluted isn't it? And it doesn't take character or character structure into account.
It's been years since I read Emma but weren't Jane Fairfax and Frank Churchill secretly together anyway? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
Surely you can accept that Ginny's role in the HP series is nothing like the roles of Emma or Knightly in Emma. They were the male and female lead characters.
Ginny is one of several mid-ranking characters. She is not a member of the trio. She is not the female lead character. She now has more competition in the form of Luna in the secondary female character stakes.
I think a real parallel with Emma is the way Austen juggled different potential pairs in the air to create suspense as to how they would fall and divert attention from the main pair.

I'm not going to go down who's the lead because I'm clear that Hermione isn't. But to me JKR used the oldest trick in the book. That has been used for a long time. Many authors use it to hint at a possible relationship. How did Hermione knew all that stuff about Cho? Wouldn't be that perhaps Ginny told her, Would it? That since Michael Corner is on Ravenclaw. Who's to say that they weren't friends. Michael Corner sure was fast in going to comfort Cho. BTW, It isn't more complicated than saying that Cho and Krum were jealous of two people who clearly didn't have any feelings for their partner.

I have a question, it's a bit general but has implications for shipping: does Harry's vision in the Mirror of Erised in PS mean that he desires to know and be with his family (who are all dead) or that he desires a family of his own?
The reason I ask is because it seems to me that JKR may be making Ron's vision come true: he's been made prefect which can be a step to becoming Head Boy and he's on the quidditch team which could lead to being quidditch captain.
So could both visions happen?

Yes vision can happen. I always understood that Harry wanted a family of his Own.

A possibility to say the least. Or one can also look at a simple fact that Ron is in OotP a lot less. Harry and Hermione went off several times without Ron, Gawp, while Ron was enjoying the party, the discussion after Valentine's Day, Valentine's day itself, the scene in the woods, the DoM.

I take this as you can't see a R/Hr relationship changing.

I am probably alone in this, but I would like to suggest people look what Ron did when Hermione made the hats. Hermione told him to not touch those hats. Ron was dishonest when he uncovered the clothes in the rubbish. How is it good for a relationship to be dishonest with your partner ? IF Ron is allowed to do this, surely Harry is allowed to do the same.... if it can be called the same, since he does hide things from EVERYBODY.

Harry did it worst. Harry let Hermione waist time and money on something that wasn't bringing any results. I'm sure Hermione could have find a better way to help the Elf's if that wasn't working. Ron may have only touched and changed it on the principle that if the Elf's were going to be free at least they should know what they are picking up. Hermione was conning them and Ron didn't believe that it was fair. He has nothing against them being free if they wanted to. Harry didn't even bother to tell Hermione why she should stop doing it, he let Hermione waist time, money and sleep, that she could have used on the OWL's.

To clarify my position on the house elf issue. I believe that Hermione is right. What I don't agree is her tactics. If the Elf's want to be free fine but don't conned them into doing it. I don't think that's fair. I agree with Ron that they should know what are they doing it. Their feelings do count and I do believe that Hermione could have an allied in Ron if she would just stop and listen to him. It the only thing that is preventing him from being on her side. I don't doubt for one second Hermione's capacity to convince Ron if she sits down and listen to it. His heart is on the right place. Ron isn't a mean person if Hermione can sit down and listen to him. I'm sure he can convince him of the flaw in his argument.

No that is not impossible between R/Hr if JKR shifts that way, not at all. I actually think there will be less bickering in the next two books because of Harry's views on it, Ron's growing maturity (hopefully) and the fact that things are going to be darker, the trio will become closer rather than further apart. If R/Hr do become closer, the question is how close do they become? As at the moment I reckon H/Hr have a much closer relationship than R/Hr.

I don't believe that H/Hr are closer. I actually perceived as R/Hr closer than H/Hr. I've said this a lot of times, but I'll say it again. I don't believe that we are going to see how a R/Hr relationship develops. I think that is one of the things that we are going to have go for what's around it.

Could you please post evidence from the text from a scene or somewhere where it implies this?

Yule ball for example. Ginny tells Hermione that they both have been rejected by girls they liked. It sounded like Ginny was giving Hermione a joke. Ginny is there when Ron asked and Hermione tells her that she has a date. She smiles while telling Ron that Hermione isn't lying. If Ginny wouldn't really like the fact of R/Hr pairing wouldn't she have acted diferently? Like tell Ron to forget it and to find another date. Besides Ginny and Hermione are friends. I'm sure that they most talk about this and I'm sure she knows that Hermione likes Ron (yes I do believe that Hermione does like Ron)

She is dealing with the memory of Tom Riddle. Yes she was being posessed by him and yes (if I remember correctly) he did say that she struggled and cried. Yet I see this as no resemblance in how Ginny would understand Harry in any way. But rather Harry would understand how Ginny felt at the end of OOP because that is when he was posessed as well, he now knows what it feels like to be posessed so he can relate to Ginny in that way, not the other way round.

We should tell JKR that then Harry only has face Voldemort only 3 times not 4 like she says. Also if both have been posessed how come they can't understand each other. Harry can understand Ginny but Ginny can't understand Harry. Forgive me but that makes no sense to me. IMO Ginny can understand Harry better than anyone else.

IMO, this passage shows that he reveals secrets about himself rather than anything to do with transferring power. Its like pouring your thoughts out into writing into a diary. Voldemort would not be stupid enough to do it twice.

LOL it's okay. I remember that part by memory. CoS is still my favorite book in the series. I've read it more times than I can remember. Remember that in order for Riddle to make Ginny do this he had to place himself in her. How do you think she was able to open the chamber? Riddle had to transfer his abilities to Ginny for her to do that. (I have a diferent idea of this, but it doesn't relate to shipping much. So I'll leave it for now.) BTW, yes I do believe that Riddle is stupid enough to make the same mistake twice. He is a stupid person(yes I do consider him stupid), remember that 16 year old Riddle had not faced by then Harry's mother, so this sort of would make a first mistake.

Gily Ann

BTW, It isn't more complicated than saying that Cho and Krum were jealous of two people who clearly didn't have any feelings for their partner.

I suppose if you want to directly ignore the fact that Cho calls Hermione Darling Hermione and tries to make Harry jealous on Valentines day after finding out about Hermione, both times Ginny's name does not come into mention. So the insertion of a name that is not given in either case makes the whole situation complicted beyond belief.

I take this as you can't see a R/Hr relationship changing.

Madam, take it or leave it any way that you wish. I did not say anything to that effect. I pointed out that Ron was in this book considerably less.

Turambar

The Mirror of Erised is a rather interesting subject. I don't think that what Harry would see in the mirror will have changed at this point. Despite his maturity Harry is still seeking for a family. This is furthur driven home by the loss of Sirius, the closest thing to a father that Harry had, not matter how brief their relationship was. The loss of Sirius and Harry's statement about a part of his life being past in OotP furthur brings this point home that Harry cannot return to the past in order to achieve what his heart is truly longing for.

We can speculate that Ron's might have changed, as Ron has achieved being a prefect, winning the house cup, and winning the Quiddich cup, head boy is all that remained in what Ron saw.

But the more that Harry tries to connect with his past the more he is thrust into the future. The old saying "You can't go home again" seems to fit. To me the Mirror of Esired gave us Harry's true quest, finding his family. Now most will say that the point of the books is Harry defeating Voldemort, perhaps, but Harry does not actively quest to fight Voldemort. Harry's true quest is not vengence but to protect his friends and loved ones.

This is why I believe Harry's finding romance to be essential to the plot of these stories. Since JKR has seperated Harry from his family in the past, Harry will be moving towards the future. The finding of his own family (MO with Hermione). Now if it wasn't essential I don't think that JKR would have introduced Harry's deepest desire (his family) or the romance at all. If one wants to see how to keep romance in a story in the back reads the LOTR books or the Narnia series. Tolkein keeps the romance in the background and Lewis doesn't introduce it at all.

Cheers!

I'm with you Hawk at the mirror issuse.

I really think this scene is probably the most important scene in all five books. Its that much important because Its not related to Voldemort. Like I said before I really doubt this books are about Harry vs Voldemort Its rather a book about a boy who search after his luck. In this process he has to go through hell. No doubt Voldemort is at the front of the story but the very idea is about Harry and what he saw in this mirror. Its interesting that we only read about Voldemort at the beginning and at the end but all other pages are for Harry and his searching.
By LotR was it always there. The ring was always around Frodos neck. It was about the ring and Frodo but not much about Frodos desire or his seeking. Thats the biggest different between HP and LotR. HP is about Harry, complett about Harry. But LotR is not only about Frodo. You can even read it at the book names thats why the slightly romance between the sub-characters was possible.

But we speaking about HP a serie what is about Harrys deepest desire and his seeking after it. Thats even the reason why H/HR did say this ship will at the earliest in book6 start but for sure in book7 happen.
I did say the mirror scene is probably the most important scene in all five books to this I count this scene between Harry and Hermione before Harry face Voldemort. COS is in that way important as It comes to Voldemort but in other case Its not.

Harrys task is it to learn to love and to be loved in return this is what the mirror scene means IMO.


To something different. I like to talk about the POV for a moment because OotP did bring an interesting change. I know we did debatte If Harrys POV is true or not than If its even only his PoV. My point is right now that the reader had in the past only Harrys view off things. Like that in PS/SS was Snape the evil till we get he wasn't. COS Malfoy is the heir till we get he isn't. PoA Black is supporter of Voldemort till we get he isn't. In GoF we get Moody is a nice guy till we get he isn't even Moody.

But in OotP is everything different. From the very beginning Umbridge is a devil there isn't such a surprise about her. There is only one scene which is like in the other books Its as Harry believe Sirius is in Voldis hands. This time is it very different we don't believe it complett because Hermione does argue quiet rational and logical. We get two views. Harrys and Hermione now we can decide.
Wait there is another scene which is like the concept of the other books. Its about James Potter. Since book1 Harry did think he was a nice wonderful person in book5 he get he wasn't like that. This should let us start to think about book6. Because we won't get a book like book1 till 4. This say something in what Harry believed since book1 will be proofed as wrong and in this case I guess Its about Hermione, there my H/Hr shipper mind again. But it makes sense.

Whilst thinking about something else, everything suddenly seemed to fall into place. You really need to be objective about this, hop off your ships for a moment and ignore your personal preferences.

It starts with the prophecy.

‘…neither can live whilst the other survives…’

Parsing this phrase gives us the following:

The Dark Lord cannot live whilst Harry survives;
Harry cannot live whilst the Dark Lord survives.

What does this mean in practical terms?

There is something about Harry (or in his possession) which prevents the Dark Lord from living;
There is something about the Dark Lord (or in his possession) which prevents Harry from living.

Logical conclusion is that the ‘something’ is one thing, common to both Voldemort and Harry. What do we know of that they share? The connection forged between them at the time of Lily’s death. A single bond, ‘one, but in essence divided’; a bond which manifests itself in equal but opposite measure in both Harry and Voldemort. It is not an unreasonable assumption, therefore, that in order to fulfil the prophecy, this bond must be broken. To assess how that is to happen, we must consider the mechanics of how that bond was forged.

We know that Voldemort cast the Avada Kedavra at Harry. Lily leapt to Harry’s defence as the curse was being cast, such that part of the curse was deflected on to Harry and part of the curse was deflected back to Voldemort. The physical effects of this were that Tom Riddle was rendered incorporeal, whilst the essence of the Dark Lord remained, and Harry escaped with nothing more than a scar. At the same time a bond is forged which blights the life of each.

It seems sensible to consider that the bond which was formed in this way might be broken in a similar way but in an opposite fashion i.e. Harry casts the AK at Voldemort. The physical effects are reversed and the mortal form of Tom Riddle is restored, whilst the essence of the Dark Lord is extinguished and Harry is left with no physical scar. Although Tom Riddle remains, the Dark Lord within is vanquished; Harry lives. The bond is broken. The prophecy is fulfilled.

HOWEVER. It is a crucial requirement that just as it was through Lily that the bond was forged, so it must be that through another the bond must be broken. This is where love will play a part once again. As the love of his mother saved Harry, yet created the bond, so the love of another will save Harry again, whilst breaking the bond. It must be a person who shares the qualities displayed by Lily.

What does Lily represent? The clue is there in the name. Purity. What else represents purity? The Moon - Luna. Again the clue is there in the name. Purity is a particularly appropriate word, because whilst the talk is of purity of blood, it was the purity of the heart which overcame all odds when Voldemort attacked the Potters. Interestingly, whilst researching this, I came across this:

The moon herself represents sacrifice that is given with love. (http://www.astroawareness.com/planets/moon.html)

Now doesn’t that sound familiar?

In terms of character, Luna, like Lily, is the embodiment of purity and innocence. We see the seeds of a spiritual connection between Harry and Luna sown at the end of OotP, which will surely grow. It is sad, but I feel that Luna has been introduced as the sacrificial lamb, and that it will be her love for Harry, and his for her that will free him, and vanquish the Dark Lord.

Moreover, I feel that Luna herself senses that her demise may be soon. She refers to the notion that she will see her dead mother again. The way in which she says it seems to suggest a certain imminence in that event.

And what of Harry after this? It will be the fourth time that love has been taken from him. I feel that this will be one time too many. For seven years, his life will have been lived in the cause of others. Finally it will be time to do something for himself. I truly believe that he will walk proudly and with his held high through the veil and fulfil what we learned in book 1 is his hearts deepest desire – to be with his loved ones. Those he leaves behind, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville, will continue his legacy and will serve as a constant reminder to the Wizarding World of the messages of love, tolerance, reconciliation and unity.

Hey guys!

Y'all have had some great posts! :clap:

Daveydee, this is very good, but....I hope you don't mind....

There's a problem and it begins where you started.


We know that Voldemort cast the Avada Kedavra at Harry. Lily leapt to Harry’s defence as the curse was being cast, such that part of the curse was deflected on to Harry and part of the curse was deflected back to Voldemort. The physical effects of this were that Tom Riddle was rendered incorporeal, whilst the essence of the Dark Lord remained, and Harry escaped with nothing more than a scar. At the same time a bond is forged which blights the life of each.


Voldemort casted two seperate AK's. One to Lily, and then one to Harry. Lily was already blocking the way, which was when Voldemort AK'ed her. Once she was down and out of the way, then he proceeded to Harry.

Which leads me to believe in my own mind that maybe Lily wrote the Ancient Runes symbol for Defense on Harry's head. "Eihwaz," the Ancient Runes symbol for defense, is shown as a lightening bolt. And Lily had to die in order for it to repell the AK. I'm still thinking this one through, and we don't have enough canon to say this happened, it's just a speculation.


It seems sensible to consider that the bond which was formed in this way might be broken in a similar way but in an opposite fashion i.e. Harry casts the AK at Voldemort. The physical effects are reversed and the mortal form of Tom Riddle is restored, whilst the essence of the Dark Lord is extinguished and Harry is left with no physical scar. Although Tom Riddle remains, the Dark Lord within is vanquished; Harry lives. The bond is broken. The prophecy is fulfilled.


Secondly, Lord Voldemort, aka the Dark Lord, IS Tom Riddle. The two are one, they do not live seperately. We learned this in CoS.

I am curious about what Harry and Voldemort share, I do have my own theories, but I can't come to a conclusion because Harry & Voldemort are two polar opposites and I can't see them sharing anything. Harry represents love and Voldemort represents evil, what can evil and love share?

Sarmi

Voldemort casted two seperate AK's. One to Lily, and then one to Harry. Lily was already blocking the way, which was when Voldemort AK'ed her. Once she was down and out of the way, then he proceeded to Harry.

Sarmi is right. But there were actually 3 AK's cast that night. 1 at James, 1 at Lilly, 1 at Harry.

Logical conclusion is that the ‘something’ is one thing, common to both Voldemort and Harry. What do we know of that they share? The connection forged between them at the time of Lily’s death. A single bond, ‘one, but in essence divided’; a bond which manifests itself in equal but opposite measure in both Harry and Voldemort. It is not an unreasonable assumption, therefore, that in order to fulfil the prophecy, this bond must be broken. To assess how that is to happen, we must consider the mechanics of how that bond was forged.

The thing that is shared in common would be the scar. Voldemort probably has a scar like Harry's on him also. Hagrid told Harry that a scar like that came from being hit with a powerful curse, the AK cast at Harry rebounded and hit Voldemort. Harry's scar also hurts when around Voldemort and hurts when the two are sharing emotions. Also remember "he will mark him as his equal". Dumbledore points out that the scar was what marked Harry as Voldemort's equal.

Cheers!

The connection is that some part of Voldemort is in that scar on Harry's forehead. I'm not just talking about Voldemort's powers but Voldemort himself. Neither Harry nor Voldemort can truly be whole until the other is dead.

The thing that is shared in common would be the scar. Voldemort probably has a scar like Harry's on him also. Hagrid told Harry that a scar like that came from being hit with a powerful curse, the AK cast at Harry rebounded and hit Voldemort. Harry's scar also hurts when around Voldemort and hurts when the two are sharing emotions. Also remember "he will mark him as his equal". Dumbledore points out that the scar was what marked Harry as Voldemort's equal.


Hawk,

Thanks for clarifying this for me. I am still speculating about it. I mean, Harry would have still been marked (via scar) wherever Lily wrote "eihwaz"....but like I said, there's nothing in canon to back it up. What you pointed out does seem to contradict that, but it's just a thought because we have no clue as to what else went on that night.

Sarmi

Sarmi and Hawk you got me to thinking right now.

First the rune:

Eihwaz (http://www.runemaker.com/runeshome.htm)
Just read this and you know what I'm talking about. See I can't post it here.
Anyway Its interesting that Voldemorts wand is out Yew and "Eihwaz" does mean "Yew tree" in english. This tree stays for dead and is possioned. This fit everything with Voldemort. Now I looked up "ehwaz" again and this has an interesting meaning. First about "Eihwaz" Its as tarot said its Dead. Now you can guess what kind of tarot "Ehwaz" has right Tarot "The lovers"

Ehwaz (http://www.runemaker.com/runeshome.htm)

Eihwaz:(EI: Yew tree.) Strength, reliability, dependability, trustworthiness. Enlightenment, endurance. Defense, protection. The driving force to acquire, providing motivation and a sense of purpose. Indicates that you have set your sights on a reasonable target and can achieve your goals. An honest man who can be relied upon. Eihwaz Reversed or Merkstave: Confusion, destruction, dissatisfaction, weakness.

Ehwaz:E: Horse, two horses.) Transportation. May represent a horse, car, plane, boat or other vehicle. Movement and change for the better. Gradual development and steady progress are indicated. Harmony, teamwork, trust, loyalty. An ideal marriage or partnership. Confirmation beyond doubt the meanings of the runes around it. Ehwaz Reversed or Merkstave: This is not really a negative rune. A change is perhaps craved. Feeling restless or confined in a situation. Reckless haste, disharmony, mistrust, betrayal.

Hermione did missread Eihwaz with Ehwaz thats if we take that Eihwaz means dead and Ehwaz love is very interesting. Ehwaz means moveing to something better.

Now compare this with Harrys missreading of Venus with Mars. Its again Love and war(dead). Its like a coin in OotP. Hermione is on the love side and Harry on the war (dead) side.

Now to what Harry and Voldemort share is the power which Voldemort know this is the deadly power. But the power which Voldemort don't knows is love. Voldemort knows hate, dead how he can torture someone but he don't know love. Not how to love and beloved. This Harry knows even its not that strong till now but It will be. Its needed because Its again between right and easy. Its easy to hate but right to love even the time is difficult.

How was it Harry didn't want be human anymore. No longer love but he did already decide to love and there comes Hermione in play. Because she is truely the only one who he could love or start to fall for before he claimed "He don't want be human" He can't decide anymore. He did it before he lost Sirius. Like the one in PoA Harry did already decide what to do before he traveled with Hermione back in time. They just needed it to do thats with this one just the same.

tree guardian

I don’t disagree with much of what you said, and we are basically speculating here anyway, but its an interesting conversation so lets go on. Just wanted to say that I don’t disagree with your POV that much. One or two points here or there.

That is nice to know. Really. And this conversation is interesting, isn't it. :)
Oh and watch for serious spectulation below. :scared:

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I don't see why Draco would have a change of heart, at this point. Unlike Draco, Harry is going through many changes and is being seriously impacted by DD, Sirius, friends, the Weaslys, and even his enemies to show him the shadows, shades, and differences between what is right, good, easy, and evil. But I don't think there has been any sort of model to effect Draco towards thinking he and his way, and his father's way of life is wrong. Even now the sides are pretty much balanced. There is no clear evidence for a kid like Draco, who has been raised and infused with beliefs and strategies of life from a Dark Wizard Community, that he is on the wrong side. Yes, a schoolmate did die, but he was in the way. I don't know how Draco views death, but like many teens are to someone they don't know or even care about, there is a feeling of detatchment. Almost as if it didn't happen in "my world" or "your world". Example. A girl commits suicide at school, during classes. Many hear about it, few saw what happened. Some knew her, many did not. Some cared, some didn't want to care, and it is hard to bring yourself into that reality of death when it is simply not upon you.
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Its not lack of emotion that Draco is showing that scares me. It is the glee that he shows after Voldemorts return and the death of Cedric that worries me. This makes Draco extremely dangerous as he is a highly intelligent, organized, socially gifted, young man who has no problems (and even delights in) the murder of a young man. Draco has the ability to dehumanize people from the beginning, this makes murder and torture all the easier if one doesn’t view people as humans with feelings. Draco is highly predatory and given his ability to be organized in his thinking and dehumanize people, that killing and torture will come quite easy to Draco.


I agree with you here. That is worrisome, isn't it?

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Draco knows about power (money included) and fear. Those are the things the leaders use to get what they want and to influence. His father is a follower of Voldemort. It would be one of those things for the father to pass whatever doctrination he followed on to his only son, would it not? I think Draco knows of death and war--the concepts, but right now he is still detatched from it and indifferent.
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It is the indifference to it that creates the problem. This is often taught in the military. To view ones enemies as targets and to not see them as people, this makes it easier when sighting them in with a rifle. Those who can detach themselves are the ones that you want for you and not against you.
But I think that you meant that Draco hasn’t experienced them yet and they are just concepts to him at this point.

Yeah, I don't think Draco has experienced them yet.

This I agree with, but I see little hope that he will view a problem when the time comes for concept to create reality.

I don't totally understand this. Are you saying you think Draco will understand the concepts enough to carry out an action upon someone's life and enough to participate in war activities or are you saying something else?

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Also, Draco's friends. I don't know how many he actually has, but I think that either most of the house members follow his way and give him free pass or they stay out of his way. But the friends, so to speak, that he does have probably have been brought up in similar households and run along the same line of thinking. However even amongst he villians of the world there is rule and heigharchy. I'd say Draco is probably one higher ranking folk in his house i terms of influence.
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I agree with the hierarchy concept totally. But since Draco is high up in the hierarchy I see another problem when the time comes. He’s not at the bottom. He’s viewing the system from the inside and sees no problems at all with it. I would hold out more hope if he was at the bottom and not so mixed up with the money, power, and leadership that is involved.

Hmm. Interesting thought. However, I think that if Draco were at the bottom it would lessen his oppostion to the bad side as it is. People at the bottom of any todem pole ususally have an easier time seeing the flaws in whatever theology or group they follow. And if Draco was already at the bottom then his whole character and role would change with his rank.

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I'm not really too concerned about what would bring on this change of heart, because for any redemption the inciting incident has got to come. I am not saying Ginny will die or get hurt and that would cause Draco to change, but something like that (I don't think she'll die) may be what illustrates his change.
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It would have to be drastic and it would probably have to be inflicted by Draco himself.

You think so? Hmm. Well, because I think that daialouge between Draco and Ginny would spring board off of a negative encounter then I suppose Draco would be the one to inflict whatever insult or horrid speech himself. But I don't think he neccessarily has to attack someone physcially to reconsider his position and conduct an introspection. IMO, a pretty dramatic event has already occured in Draco's life that I think will call Draco's position, capability, loyalty and all that jazz into question--the jailing of his father, Lucius Malfoy and thus the questioning of his family name and position in society.

(Some serious spec.) Here is where I think Ginny would come in to play. Since I think the Malfoys are mostly compared to the Weaslys being that they seem to be the most respectable familys on the two opposing sides and perhaps the tensions would be played out. There would be anger and retaliation from Ron to Draco, but I don't think Ginny would take the same approach as ROn. IMO Gimnny may have garnered a bit of leverage or respect from Draco over the past year. Dern, it starting to sound Romeo and Juliet-ish. :grumble:


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It may be a high price. Draco still has potential to turn to the side of good. Now whether JKR would rather leave him where he is and on his track is up to her. No matter what it would still be realistic, because some people don't change. Not that they can't, they won't.
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Yeah. But who pays the toll is interesting.

If this were to occur, it would certainly be interesting as well devastating.

(Serious Spec.) Oh, I just had a thought about what if D/G did get together and there was a Bertha incident ( like what apparently happened to Snape?). Meaning someone caught them snogging and Draco hexed the person. :wow: :lol: I dunno, that thought just slipped into my head all the sudden, and I had to post it. :rotfl:

Just set the date and time. The Harmony will be there.

Patience, patience. :p

Cheers!

Interesting posts FP, Daveydee, Hawk and Sarmi.
Perhaps some information Hermione uncovers to do with runes could be crucial. Perhaps also her use of the DA coins - based on Voldemort's DE tatoos, so turning the enemy's methods against him - could be foreshadowing.
I didn't get the Lily/Luna parallel: based on what we know of Lily she seems a very different character to Luna.
Noddwyd: just on your views on Harry's mood at the end of OOTP, one thing I thought of yesterday was that while JKR has Harry go through this period of withdrawal at the end, she also highlights three pillars of support for him during the year.
I'm referring to his friends, the DA and the Order. The hospital scene could have been written as just the trio together as usual but JKR re-forms the group of six that went to the DOM. Then on the way home, DA members jinx Malfoy and at the station we get a show of support from Order members.
I think she's saying that the people around Harry won't let him slip away.

Well! Nothing like being completely deprived of one's computer for almost two days. I hope all my fellow East-Coast-US'ers braved Hurricane Isabel safely (and my most sincere empathy goes to those who are still without power--I'll never take it for granted again. :wow: )

Anyway, the last five pages or so have been enjoyable to read. The discussion is going well this time around, and it's nice to see a few new faces here.

And now, to business:

Daveydee, I personally enjoyed your theory very much. It makes perfect sense to me and fits in well with the overall moral scheme of the series [that of sacrifice and the power of love]. Plus, I have no personal problem with the concept of Harry/Luna, which is why this theory is not at all hard for me to swallow (as it would be if any other girl besides Hermione was put in the place you've designated for Luna, but I suppose that's another story).

However. Your theory suggests that Harry dies, while allowing Tom Riddle (not the Dark Lord) to live. This Tom Riddle is mortal, naturally, which would enable anyone to kill him, obviously. But will Harry simply allow the mortal Tom Riddle to live while he takes his own life? Doesn't that leave a lot of loose ends and potential for future trouble?

I'll admit that you lost me a little towards the beginning, but for the most part I see exactly where you're going with this speculation and it's definitely an interesting idea. I especially liked what you said here:

And what of Harry after this? It will be the fourth time that love has been taken from him. I feel that this will be one time too many. For seven years, his life will have been lived in the cause of others. Finally it will be time to do something for himself. I truly believe that he will walk proudly and with his held high through the veil and fulfil what we learned in book 1 is his hearts deepest desire – to be with his loved ones.
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GilyAnn,

Harry did it worst. Harry let Hermione waist time and money on something that wasn't bringing any results. I'm sure Hermione could have find a better way to help the Elf's if that wasn't working. Ron may have only touched and changed it on the principle that if the Elf's were going to be free at least they should know what they are picking up. Hermione was conning them and Ron didn't believe that it was fair. He has nothing against them being free if they wanted to. Harry didn't even bother to tell Hermione why she should stop doing it, he let Hermione waist time, money and sleep, that she could have used on the OWL's.

I don't understand you here. The original point that you were disagreeing with was that Ron was dishonest to Hermione by removing the elf hats behind her back and not telling her that he did it. You said that Harry did worse by...not telling her the elves weren't getting her hats? How is that? Ron deliberately went behind her back after she had specifically asked him not to remove the hats simply because her principles happened to disagree with his. Harry wanted to spare her feelings by not telling her that Dobby had been taking all the hats, so he didn't tell her.

Conclusion:
1) Ron didn't tell Hermione he had removed the hats behind her back because it would have gotten him in trouble with her, thereby allowing her to continue to waste her time making hats for the elves.
2) Harry didn't tell Hermione Dobby was taking all her hats because he didn't have the heart to upset her so much, thereby allowing her to continue to waste her time making hats for the elves.
3) Both Harry and Ron let Hermione waste her time by not being completely straightforward with her.
4) Harry's motives for not being straightforward were for Hermione's sake, while Ron's motives for not being straightforward were for his own sake.

So how is Harry's dishonesty worse than Ron's?

Yule ball for example. Ginny tells Hermione that they both have been rejected by girls they liked. It sounded like Ginny was giving Hermione a joke. Ginny is there when Ron asked and Hermione tells her that she has a date. She smiles while telling Ron that Hermione isn't lying. If Ginny wouldn't really like the fact of R/Hr pairing wouldn't she have acted diferently? Like tell Ron to forget it and to find another date. Besides Ginny and Hermione are friends. I'm sure that they most talk about this and I'm sure she knows that Hermione likes Ron (yes I do believe that Hermione does like Ron)

You are, of course, entitled to your own speculation, which is why I'm sure you'll understand when I say that I disagree with the above, for the following reasons:

1) Ginny was not smiling when she told Ron that Hermione wasn't lying.
" 'She's lying,' said Ron flatly, watching her go.
'She's not,' said Ginny quietly.
As you can see, there's no mention of her smiling.

2) If Ginny liked the idea of R/Hr so much, why not tell him who Hermione's date was? It would give him such wonderful ammunition for interfering with Hermione's love life all the more. What a way to stir up the pheromones between those two, eh? Instead, she chose to back away from catalyzing any further action by refusing to tell him who Hermione was going with. Sounds to me like she couldn't care less about what happens between Ron and Hermione (and that makes two of us ;)).

Forgive me but that makes no sense to me. IMO Ginny can understand Harry better than anyone else.

What I find interesting is that it's constantly being expressed that Ginny is the only person in the history of the Wizarding World to have encountered Voldemort, other than Harry, and therefore she and Harry have a bond. In the words of Dumbledore, "Older and wiser wizards have been hoodwinked by Lord Voldemort". Does this not imply that people have had Ginny-like experiences before Ginny herself? So how is Ginny the only person in the entire world to be able to identify with Harry?

I just want to cry. These posts are all so long and it's murder trying to read all of them. Anyhoo, I just wanted to say that there've been good posts from all ships. Everyone should take a :clap:. Okay, now I'm off to read the past few pages. Happy debating! :)

tree guardian

I don't totally understand this. Are you saying you think Draco will understand the concepts enough to carry out an action upon someone's life and enough to participate in war activities or are you saying something else?

When the time comes for Draco to take what he has been taught, ex. those on the opposites sides lives do not matter, I think that he will make the transition from the concept of killing those individuals to the reality of killing those individuals with little difficulty. Since it will be easy for him to do so (go from concept to the actual reality of killing) I don’t think that Draco will question it too much, if at all. One other thing to watch is if Draco does not question his path after his first killing it will be less likely that he will question it after he kills again. Draco will only get better at killing and killing will get easier for Draco with time.

Hmm. Interesting thought. However, I think that if Draco were at the bottom it would lessen his oppostion to the bad side as it is. People at the bottom of any todem pole ususally have an easier time seeing the flaws in whatever theology or group they follow. And if Draco was already at the bottom then his whole character and role would change with his rank.

Draco’s being at the top creates problems because he has so much to lose.
Money, power, cronies, you name it. That’s a lot to turn ones back on. It would be easier for Draco if he had nothing to lose. Even if he questions his teachings and upbringing the other aspects, money, respect, etc will make it harder to leave what he has known.

You think so? Hmm. Well, because I think that daialouge between Draco and Ginny would spring board off of a negative encounter then I suppose Draco would be the one to inflict whatever insult or horrid speech himself. But I don't think he neccessarily has to attack someone physcially to reconsider his position and conduct an introspection. IMO, a pretty dramatic event has already occured in Draco's life that I think will call Draco's position, capability, loyalty and all that jazz into question--the jailing of his father, Lucius Malfoy and thus the questioning of his family name and position in society.

That would have been a great catalyst, but after his father was sent to jail Draco went looking for Harry for revenge. This catalyst to this point has created nothing in Draco but the need to avenge, what he no doubts considers, the wrongful imprisonment of his father.

(Some serious spec.) Here is where I think Ginny would come in to play. Since I think the Malfoys are mostly compared to the Weaslys being that they seem to be the most respectable familys on the two opposing sides and perhaps the tensions would be played out. There would be anger and retaliation from Ron to Draco, but I don't think Ginny would take the same approach as ROn. IMO Gimnny may have garnered a bit of leverage or respect from Draco over the past year. Dern, it starting to sound Romeo and Juliet-ish.

Two households, both alike in dignity,
In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star crossed lovers take their life;
Whose misadventures piteous overthrows
Do with their death bury their parents’ strife.

Cheers!

Earendil
:) thanks for supplying reason to my argument ^.^

Everyone else, wonderful postings :) I especially liked the whole " Eihwaz / Ehwaz " discussion. I can't wait to read more some more :) So, please post more ^.^

Nice posts there Earendil, FP, and Tree Guardian

Turambar

I didn't get the Lily/Luna parallel: based on what we know of Lily she seems a very different character to Luna.

I hate to answer for another poster, espically one from a opposing ship, but I think it has something to do with their names. But then again, a little clarification here could help. I thought that Lilly was named after a flower like her sister Petunia was.

I'm not much of a fan of parallels.

I was also thinking about the whole scar thing again; Could the bond be deeper between Harry and Voldemort because they got hit by the same killing curse? It did rebound off of Harry and hit Voldemort.

Well! Nothing like being completely deprived of one's computer for almost two days. I hope all my fellow East-Coast-US'ers braved Hurricane Isabel safely (and my most sincere empathy goes to those who are still without power--I'll never take it for granted again. )

Fine here. The biggest part of the hurricane missed us.

Cheers!

Hawk: I realised it was to do with their names but I thought there was nothing else to link the two, but I probably wasn't clear what I meant.

As much I know means Lily a flower which is pure/beautyful but at the same time means it dead. This flower is used a sign of dead.

Thats where I don't see paralell between Luna and Lily because the moon isn't a sign of dead, not at all. If you look at romian goddess than you get the goddess of moon are always related with family and live. Even in horoscop mean it motherly love and live.

Something what Lily's name don't suggest. Though Luna as person knows dead but I doubt that this leads to romantical conection with Harry. Moon and sun can't be together. Its impossible. Because without the distance the moon can't shine anymore for the earth.

Voldemort casted two seperate AK's. One to Lily, and then one to Harry. Lily was already blocking the way, which was when Voldemort AK'ed her. Once she was down and out of the way, then he proceeded to Harry.
I think that this is actually a misconception deliberately placed by JK. Voldemorts own recollection of events, as recounted in the graveyard is thus:

'My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon me'

The fact that the 'third' AK never emerged from his wand during priori incantatem would also appear to be confirmation that there was in fact no third AK.

Secondly, Lord Voldemort, aka the Dark Lord, IS Tom Riddle. The two are one, they do not live seperately. We learned this in CoS.
There is a school of thought, to which I subscribe, which quite reasonably believes that the Dark Lord is merely an essence or a persona (for want of better words) within the mortal form of Tom Riddle, and that therefore redemption in some form is not impossible. The fact that the prophecy refers to the 'Dark Lord' rather than 'Voldemort' is significant, IMO. Yes - it sounds more poetic, but I think that it goes beyond that.

I hate to answer for another poster, espically one from a opposing ship, but I think it has something to do with their names. But then again, a little clarification here could help. I thought that Lilly was named after a flower like her sister Petunia was.
Yes - the lily (flower) is a symbol of purity, as is the Moon. From what we know of Lily we assume that she is pure (in heart), and from what we have seen of Luna so far she seems to embody a certain sense of purity and innocence. I particularly like this symbolic lunar association however:

The moon herself represents sacrifice that is given with love

About Harry's scar:

I don't think that in itself it has any significance. I think that the significance lies in the fact that Lily's sacrifice had such a devastating effect on Voldemort whilst Harry emerged relatively unscathed. Sort of opposite extremes, if you like.

I don't believe that H/Hr are closer. I actually perceived as R/Hr closer than H/Hr. I've said this a lot of times, but I'll say it again. I don't believe that we are going to see how a R/Hr relationship develops. I think that is one of the things that we are going to have go for what's around it


We don’t know if R/Hr is closer, since we can not see how their relationship develops like you said. But by the way they (R/Hr) differ on so many things which most of the time end up in an argument, it’s hard to see where they would be closer than in the H/Hr relationship. That IMO is what is around it. Could you give a clear analysis on what you see around it? e.g. give actual evidence i.e. book, page, passages from the book and showing where it implies this and then your interpretation and by that I don’t mean one example, a few.


Yule ball for example. Ginny tells Hermione that they both have been rejected by girls they liked. It sounded like Ginny was giving Hermione a joke. Ginny is there when Ron asked and Hermione tells her that she has a date. She smiles while telling Ron that Hermione isn't lying. If Ginny wouldn't really like the fact of R/Hr pairing wouldn't she have acted differently? Like tell Ron to forget it and to find another date. Besides Ginny and Hermione are friends. I'm sure that they most talk about this and I'm sure she knows that Hermione likes Ron (yes I do believe that Hermione does like Ron)



GOF Chapter Twenty-Two: The Unexpected Task p348


‘Yeah I know!’ said Ron, some of the colour coming back into his face as he started to laugh. ‘He told me after Potions!’ Said she’s always been really nice, helping him out with work and stuff – but she told him she was already going with someone. Ha! As if! She just didn’t want to go with Neville….I mean, who would?’
‘Don’t! said Ginny annoyed, ‘Don’t laugh -‘
Just then Hermione climbed in through the portrait hole.
‘Why weren’t you two at dinner?’ she said, coming over to join them.
‘Because – oh, shut up laughing, you two – because they’re both just been turned down by girls they asked to the ball!’
said Ginny.
That shut Harry and Ron up.
‘Thanks a bunch, Ginny,’ said Ron sourly.
‘All the good-looking ones taken, Ron?’ said Hermione loftily.
‘Eloise Midgen starting to look quite pretty now, is she? Well, I’m sure you’ll find someone somewhere who’ll have you.’
But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing her in a whole new light. ‘Hermione, Neville’s right – you are a girl…’
‘Oh, well spotted,’ she said acidly.


I don’t see Ginny at all smiling here in this passage, nor any implication that she wants to see R/Hr together at all. She’s just answering the question Hermione asked her and shutting both Harry and Ron up in the process about Neville and Hermione, still agitated by what Ron said. Great friend Ron is to Neville eh? Here is another example where Ron sees going with someone on the Yule Ball is based on looks rather than personality. Even Neville isn’t as slow on the uptake as Ron about Hermione and more importantly he judges her on who she is, rather than what she looks like.

GOF Chapter Twenty-Two: The Unexpected Task p349


‘No, you’re not!’ said Ron. ‘You just said that to get rid of Neville!’
‘Oh, did I? said Hermione, and her eyes flashed dangerously.
‘Just because it’s taken you three years to notice, Ron, doesn’t
mean no one else has spotted I’m a girl!’
Ron stared at her. Then he grinned again.
‘OK, OK, we know you’re a girl,’ he said. ‘That do? Will you come now?’
‘I’ve already told you!‘ Hermione said, very angrily. ‘I’m
going with someone else!’
And she stormed off towards the girls’ dormitories again.
‘She’s lying,’ said Ron, watching her go.
‘She’s not,’ said Ginny quietly.
‘Who is it, then?’ said Ron sharply.
‘I’m not telling you, it’s her business,’ said Ginny.
‘Right,’ said Ron, who looked extremely put out, ‘this is get-
ting stupid. Ginny you can go with Harry, and I’ll just –‘
‘I can’t,’ said Ginny, and she went scarlet too. ‘I’m going with – with Neville. He asked me when Hermione said no, and thought….well….I’m not going to be able to go otherwise, I’m not in fourth year.’ She looked extremely miserable. ‘I think I’ll go and have dinner,’ she said, and she got up and walked off to the portrait hole, her head bowed.


This is the following passage. Again this does not show at all that Ginny is smiling at all, quite the opposite actually, one of them reasons was because Harry asked Cho. Well here is an example where Ginny might think that Ron is not suitable for Hermione. His slowness and opinion of Hermione shows in these passages is that he thinks of her as the last resort. Does Ginny really want one of her best friends dating a guy who doesn’t treat her right or even notice her? It also shows that the arguing between Hermione and Ron is not ‘cute’ but her values and opinions on how Ron decides on a date and girls in general. Notice the words dangerously, very angrily, acidly. If these are words to describe a ‘cute’ argument, I’m .... - can't find the word for it - flabbergasted?.

>> Wand / Priori Incantem :
========================
This information is not to be relied upon in the books. From Harry's memories and what seems to bourne out, James died, then Lily / James -- thus no James live thing. YET, James came out of the wand first, told Harry his mother was coming. You can't simply take anything that came out of the wand to be the ONLY truth.

That is if I am to take your version of what you think happened.


'My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon me'

It doesn't say Voldemort sent the second curse, and it rebounded. It says his curse on Harry was deflected by Lily's sacrifice. I can see how you can take it as Lily jumping infront of Harry to save him. Or which was more likely turning her back to Voldemort, when Harry was in her hand as the curse was coming to her.

But it can also be seen as Lily keeping Harry behind herself and Voldemort. Voldemort killing Lily (thus her sacrifice). And after that killing, coating Harry in her protection. And then the curse rebounding. This supports the idea that is why Harry has a scar, and not his mother.

>> Wand / Priori Incantem :
========================
This information is not to be relied upon in the books. From Harry's memories and what seems to bourne out, James died, then Lily / James -- thus no James live thing. YET, James came out of the wand first, told Harry his mother was coming. You can't simply take anything that came out of the wand to be the ONLY truth.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, nappa. Can you be clearer. Are you saying that priori incantatem should not be trusted?

Sorry about that. My english is sometimes confusing. Having to think in another language and then translating has that effect ^.^


What I mean is this. You said I think that this is actually a misconception deliberately placed by JK. Voldemorts own recollection of events, as recounted in the graveyard is thus:
'My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon me'
The fact that the 'third' AK never emerged from his wand during priori incantatem would also appear to be confirmation that there was in fact no third AK.


What you are basing your assumption is something that can't be right. Since James died first , yet he came out first. That scene is right in it's heart. Ie, the events (they dies) , but you can't base a proper argument on faulty text. If that scene were to be taken in it's exact form, then Voldemort did not kill till James after he had been reduced to a shadow. after killing Harry/or Lily (like you say). Now then when James told Lily to take Harry and run, did he go and hide somewhere ?

Basically I'm saying there is atleast one mistake, there might be more. Digging too deep into subtext in this scene will be hazardus.

There is another mistake in the shadow scene. I have to look it up on the HP4GrownUps, but there were a total of two mistakes there. JKR later confirmed this. The books haven't been changed though. Which is quite annoying.


edit the James and Voldemort mistake & Language

Just a suggestion about the Priori Incantatem scene in GOF and DaveyDee's question as to why only Lily & James Reappeared if 3 AK's were cast.

The 3rd AK spell, the one that was possibly aimed at Harry, failed to work. It left Harry with his scar, rebounded on Voldemort and left him as a disembodied spirit, but nonetheless alive.

In effect we have a killing curse which failed to kill. In this situation how could the spell, and it's effects, be displayed in the Priori Incantatem sequence?

I suppose if you want to directly ignore the fact that Cho calls Hermione Darling Hermione and tries to make Harry jealous on Valentines day after finding out about Hermione, both times Ginny's name does not come into mention. So the insertion of a name that is not given in either case makes the whole situation complicted beyond belief.

Like I said Ginny's ex ends up with Harry's ex.

Earandil:

I don't understand you here. The original point that you were disagreeing with was that Ron was dishonest to Hermione by removing the elf hats behind her back and not telling her that he did it. You said that Harry did worse by...not telling her the elves weren't getting her hats? How is that? Ron deliberately went behind her back after she had specifically asked him not to remove the hats simply because her principles happened to disagree with his. Harry wanted to spare her feelings by not telling her that Dobby had been taking all the hats, so he didn't tell her.

Conclusion:
1) Ron didn't tell Hermione he had removed the hats behind her back because it would have gotten him in trouble with her, thereby allowing her to continue to waste her time making hats for the elves.
2) Harry didn't tell Hermione Dobby was taking all her hats because he didn't have the heart to upset her so much, thereby allowing her to continue to waste her time making hats for the elves.
3) Both Harry and Ron let Hermione waste her time by not being completely straightforward with her.
4) Harry's motives for not being straightforward were for Hermione's sake, while Ron's motives for not being straightforward were for his own sake.

So how is Harry's dishonesty worse than Ron's?

Harry's does it worst. Ron thinks that the Elf's should know what they are picking up. I agree with him. Ron has no idea if the Elf's are picking up the hats or not. He simply puts in vision for them so they know what they are picking up. IF they want to pick it up. Harry instead not only knows what the Elf's are doing but but doesn't let Hermione in the problem. Knowing that the place is looking a bit disorganized. Hermione keeps on doing the hats and placing them. Do we see Ron after it putting the hats in vision. NO, we only see it once. Harry in the other hand, not only doesn't care for Hermione's efforts but show lack of friendship when he doesn't even warn her that her tactics are not working. This goes on for a year and Harry doesn't even bother to tell her once. At least Ron is straighforward with his opinion.

You are, of course, entitled to your own speculation, which is why I'm sure you'll understand when I say that I disagree with the above, for the following reasons:

1) Ginny was not smiling when she told Ron that Hermione wasn't lying.
" 'She's lying,' said Ron flatly, watching her go.
'She's not,' said Ginny quietly.
As you can see, there's no mention of her smiling.

2) If Ginny liked the idea of R/Hr so much, why not tell him who Hermione's date was? It would give him such wonderful ammunition for interfering with Hermione's love life all the more. What a way to stir up the pheromones between those two, eh? Instead, she chose to back away from catalyzing any further action by refusing to tell him who Hermione was going with. Sounds to me like she couldn't care less about what happens between Ron and Hermione (and that makes two of us ).

Because that what's friends do. Keep a secret. Evidently Hermione didn't want anyone to know and she trusted Ginny with her secret. That scene clearly shows the loyalty that Ginny has and that she won't break a secret for no one. Not even her brother or the guy she 'fancies'. Ginny clearly says that it isn't her business so if Hermione didn't tell him she isn't going to do it either. Trully a sign of loyalty.

What I find interesting is that it's constantly being expressed that Ginny is the only person in the history of the Wizarding World to have encountered Voldemort, other than Harry, and therefore she and Harry have a bond. In the words of Dumbledore, "Older and wiser wizards have been hoodwinked by Lord Voldemort". Does this not imply that people have had Ginny-like experiences before Ginny herself? So how is Ginny the only person in the entire world to be able to identify with Harry?

On Harry's age, yes. The other wiser wizards are not here to tell the story, I'm sure half are not even alive.

V@sh:
We don’t know if R/Hr is closer, since we can not see how their relationship develops like you said. But by the way they (R/Hr) differ on so many things which most of the time end up in an argument, it’s hard to see where they would be closer than in the H/Hr relationship. That IMO is what is around it. Could you give a clear analysis on what you see around it? e.g. give actual evidence i.e. book, page, passages from the book and showing where it implies this and then your interpretation and by that I don’t mean one example, a few.

Well I clearly got that from the book (which I'm sure you see differently). When I have more time I will. Right now I'm on an overload, so give me some time for that.

I don’t see Ginny at all smiling here in this passage, nor any implication that she wants to see R/Hr together at all. She’s just answering the question Hermione asked her and shutting both Harry and Ron up in the process about Neville and Hermione, still agitated by what Ron said. Great friend Ron is to Neville eh? Here is another example where Ron sees going with someone on the Yule Ball is based on looks rather than personality. Even Neville isn’t as slow on the uptake as Ron about Hermione and more importantly he judges her on who she is, rather than what she looks like.

This is the following passage. Again this does not show at all that Ginny is smiling at all, quite the opposite actually, one of them reasons was because Harry asked Cho. Well here is an example where Ginny might think that Ron is not suitable for Hermione. His slowness and opinion of Hermione shows in these passages is that he thinks of her as the last resort. Does Ginny really want one of her best friends dating a guy who doesn’t treat her right or even notice her? It also shows that the arguing between Hermione and Ron is not ‘cute’ but her values and opinions on how Ron decides on a date and girls in general. Notice the words dangerously, very angrily, acidly. If these are words to describe a ‘cute’ argument, I’m .... - can't find the word for it - flabbergasted?.


Yes sorry Ginny was smilling before that. But as I said before clearly she has no objection her remarks, answers and actions would have been a lot differently.

Ron had not realize fully that Hermione was a girl (and one that he could be atractive to). So it's normal that he had not though of it before. Neville is another case. I fully believe that Neville has a crush on Hermione. Not for nothing his grandmother knows her name, she was his first choice to the Yule ball and carries her in the DoM. Sometimes I think that they are ending up toguether.

Gily Ann

Right, I see what you're saying nappa.

Well, it is unfortunate indeed that the early versions of GoF have Lily and James emerging in the wrong order. That was acknowledged as a mistake and obviously corrected, and I can see how that might affect the credibility of the priori incantatem scene. It shouldn't though - it is an important scene and clearly there is no record of a third AK spell by Voldemort in the priori incantatem, regardless of whether it is Lily or James who emerges first.

Which leads me on to the point made by Elric.
In effect we have a killing curse which failed to kill. In this situation how could the spell, and it's effects, be displayed in the Priori Incantatem sequence?
Nevertheless if the spell was cast, there should be a record of it in the PI, regardless of whether it achieved the desired effect. The fact that there is no record should indicate primarily that the spell wasn't cast. That would be the most logical conclusion, before we start trying to second guess whether failed spells are shown in the PI.

Nevertheless if the spell was cast, there should be a record of it in the PI, regardless of whether it achieved the desired effect. The fact that there is no record should indicate primarily that the spell wasn't cast. That would be the most logical conclusion, before we start trying to second guess whether failed spells are shown in the PI. We have no evidence from which we can determine this. The reason I say is simply because the spell might have been sent at Harry, but it did not kill Harry. It did not kill Voldemort either. It's a grey area in which you can't say with as much certainty as you are about something.

The priori incantem is supposed to show the spells that had come before. We do not know if the spells has to be completed before they show up in the stream. or do they have to be just started and told.

There is a possibility that you are right, just like there is chances in the canon for a H/Hr pairing. Heck even a D/Hr one since JKR refused to denounce any ship.

Neville and Hermoine :huh: oh boy. Although I think it's right that he liked her, I would be shocked if this happened

Someone futher up mentioned how Cho tried to make Harry jealous by mentioning Hermoine. It was actually this passage in the book that made me think there was little hope for Hr/H because at first Harry doesn't understand what she's saying, and then when Hermoine explains it to him, he thinks it silly.
As well the fact that Harry can talk openly about his romance problems to Hermoine and not be embarresed is also more evidence that he does not see her as anything more than a friend.

However I think that at some point during the novels Hermoine did like Harry, especially with the peck at the end of PoA (or was it GoF?) She may or may not be over it.

Hello everyone

Harry in the other hand, not only doesn't care for Hermione's efforts but show lack of friendship when he doesn't even warn her that her tactics are not working. This goes on for a year and Harry doesn't even bother to tell her once. At least Ron is straighforward with his opinion.
If you think that Harry doesn't care for Hermione's efforts then you certainly read that part wrong. The whole reason Harry didn't tell Hermione about Dobby picking up the Elf hats is because he didn't want to hurt her feelings, yes it probably would have been better if he did tell her, but Harry was only thinking of her which is why he didn't.
Besides even if he had told her, she would have just done something else that would have probably been even more extreme, so in his own way he was helping the elves as well, because at least they knew that hermione was hiding the elf hats. so if Hermione goes on with thinking that the hats are being taken then she won't do anything else.
Ron was honest with her but he did lie to her too.

About eihwaz/ehwaz.

Its for me somehow scary that Hermione did miss read a "M" with a "S" thats somehow how the runes looks like.
She did missread "patnership" with "denfence" thats interesting if you look what Hermione does in canon. Isn't she always trying to protect Harry like to say "Its to dangerous..." and all this stuff.
Maybe this is foreshadowing somehow because this can mean in book6 this might change and at the end of book5 she shows some kind of changing.

By the way just curios we all say that ehwaz looks like Harrys scar,right? Than I wonder about Hermione. Because Its a well knowing learn technique to learn things in pictures or to something related. Now Harrys scar is there because he did survive. This say it can be called as sign for defence and strenght (what the runes means too). You know him than I think I would picture me this like that ehwaz like scar ergo defence.
Now eihwaz don't look like a that not at all. It looks like a "M" and not like Harrys scar. How can she missread this? How?

This lead me to another though that she don't see his scar, not really see it. So she can't make this picture. She can't learn it like that. Thats why she was wrong.
Or she don't think of Harry as this. Because if Hermione did missread eihwaz this mean she translated ehwaz, wrong too. She see in him something different as it suppose to be.

I'm sorry but what is everyone getting at? It's quite confusing for me to pick up everything that's going on and I don't want to seem like a complete dunce so can someone steer me in the path of what everyone's discussing. Thanks.


EDIT: I'm not sure what you're trying to get at FP. Are you trying to make a shipper point? I'm sorry if I sound like an idiot but I don't get what you're saying. Please clarify.

Like I said Ginny's ex ends up with Harry's ex.

And your point is? Just because Cho goes together with Michael doesn't mean that Cho will stay with Michael. Furthermore, how does this play into a possible Harry and Ginny relationship? Just because their ex's get together doesn't mean that Harry and Ginny has to get together; I find that hopelessly cheesy and cliched.


Because that what's friends do. Keep a secret. Evidently Hermione didn't want anyone to know and she trusted Ginny with her secret. That scene clearly shows the loyalty that Ginny has and that she won't break a secret for no one. Not even her brother or the guy she 'fancies'. Ginny clearly says that it isn't her business so if Hermione didn't tell him she isn't going to do it either. Trully a sign of loyalty.

sure...so it shows Ginny's "true sign of loyalty" to mind her own business. However, it still doesn't prove anything in regard to her reaction to a Ron and Hermione possible relationship. In fact I think that she seems more hesitant about Ron and Hermione; after that fight who wouldn't?

Yes sorry Ginny was smilling before that.
Of course; Ron had just attempted to ask Fleur Delacour to the Yule Ball; it was very humorous, but does it have anything to do with Ron and Hermione's possible relationship? Nope.

But as I said before clearly she has no objection

Evidence?

her remarks, answers and actions would have been a lot differently.

If she does want to play matchmaker, Ginny's remark would indeed be very different. She would have been more playful and tease her brother. Instead, her reaction was cold and abrupt.



Ron had not realize fully that Hermione was a girl

By that, I'm assuming you mean that she "looks" like a girl right? Of course not. Hermione had to "tell" him that.

(and one that he could be atractive to).

Correction: one that HE is attracted to, not BE attractive to. Afterall, we don't know Hermione's opinion on Ron; from their conversations (the onces that don't end in big fights), Hermione doesn't think very much of him.

Neville is another case. I fully believe that Neville has a crush on Hermione.

I think not. IMO, Neville views Hermione as a very helping friend. He would feel happy to go with Hermione because she has been kind to him since their first year. The reason why I don't think Neville had a crush on Hermione was because after Hermione rejected him, Neville went right along and asked Ginny (possibly right in front of Hermione since Ginny knew about it) So, obviously, he wasn't hurt by the rejection.

Not for nothing his grandmother knows her name,

Lucius knew about Hermione too, in fact in the beginning of their second year. So am I do assume Draco had a crush on Hermione too?

she was his first choice to the Yule ball
I think Neville felt that she was his only choice since none of the other girls has ever shown kindness to him.

and carries her in the DoM.

He only carries her because he wouldn't fight the DEs with his broken wand and broken nose.

Sometimes I think that they are ending up toguether.

I obviously disagree. Neville's relationship with Hermione would be awkward; I always feel that Hermione would seem motherly. It is the other extreme of the poll.

Passive-----------Moderate--------------Radical
Neville Harry Ron

Hermione's possible relationship with...

Neville: Passive relationship where the female dominates and will always be right.

Ron: Radical relationship where both parties are unable to compromise due to their similar personalities. Both are stubborn about their difference of opinions, therefore are unable to reach a solution or resolve their problems. Because of this, their conversations usually end in fights.

Harry: The ultimate relationship where both parties complement each other in their difference of personalities. Both play the dominant role and the non-dominate (recessive?) role. They're able to compromise and come up with solutions to their problems. Although both may not have the same approach to problems, generally, their views on certain things are similar.


On Harry's age, yes. The other wiser wizards are not here to tell the story,

That's your assumption.

I'm sure half are not even alive.

There is always the other half. I'm sure they're way more knowledgable about Voldemort than Ginny is.

Cheers!
~Polaris

Draco redeemable? R/J outcome?

Tree Guardian
Ginny's growth has been not because of Harry but despite. This is why I think it would be just up Ginny's alley to have some kind of relationship with Draco. (not neccesarily romantic) She seems to be firey and outspoken sometimes and just the kind of person who would jump on Draco on the Quidditch field or whatever. But the relationship or dailogue need not happen in Harry's POV, it is the result of the relationship that would be important.

Hmmm. While you may be on target re: Ginny, I tend to agree with Hawk’s assessment of Draco at present, sadly. Love may redeem him in some drastic circumstance, though this could prove hazardous for both Draco and Ginny and here I do see that the Romeo/Juliet parallel may have merit . Though even if it reaches this level of criticality, as you say, I would only be interested in its outcome or effect on the plot. I would fairly cringe if we have to witness Draco’s romantic meanderings ;)



Viktor and implications for the series

Turambar:
Evaluna: I think Viktor's entry back into the story at this point would be interesting because he's the one character who would be the catalyst for thoughts of romance in all three of the trio. I mean is there anyone else who could make Ron jealous, Hermione blush and Harry confused all at the same time?
I mean suddenly at the start of OOTP Harry feels jealous of Ron and Hermione spending weeks together without him.Viktor's return could make Harry examine his feelings for Hermione. Could be time for Ron to break out the angst pills if Krum returns. Hermione: Could be a bit confused and find the emotions flying around a bit hard to deal with. Of the boys Harry is definately number one. She likes Viktor and Ron as friends but Viktor has the edge over Ron in a romantic sense because JKR stresses Hr/K's ability to communicate - "deep in talk" at the Yule Ball in GOF and the long letter in OOTP - an area where Hermione has problems with Ron. Viktor also has characteristics in common with Harry and is older and more mature. And is tall, dark, with an accent.

So JKR could use Viktor to touch off a fallout in the trio if she wants to go that way; to bring H/Hr together; to develop the harmony theme. She has already mirrored Hermione/Krum with Harry/Cho to show H/Hr's first crushes jealous over H/Hr's relationship. Those were plot planks in GOF and OOTP rather than subtle clues so Viktor seems to be a character built into the basic framework of the series plot.
Bringing Viktor back as DADA teacher is definately a possibility. I'd hope that Harry and Viktor could overcome differences to work together. Ron, you would think, could jump off the deep end unless his relationship with Luna progresses pretty quickly, like over summer.

Turambar, I completely agree and it’s clear that Krum’s storyline is not resolved, as we did see him mentioned in OoP in connection with Hermione. Being an ally of Harry as well, Krum has potential to play a significant role re: romance and school unity. Presumably his integrity will carry the day if he loses out on Hermione’s affection? Because it’s not as if there is anyone similar who might catch his eye, correct? OR do you think then Ginny or Cho might go for him, as he does have much in common with Harry??? Sorry, that’s a bit out there, but just wondering if he’ll be paired or left empty-handed if he and Hermione are not destined to become an item – and as of GoF she did still seem to give Harry priority, for whatever reason, and this continued through OoP vis-à-vis Ron, but Krum was of course not present. It’s interesting that Hermione was writing Krum such a long letter in OoP; what exactly do they discuss…? However, if Hermione was being truthful, then to her Krum remains a penpal. Note that Ron’s not so dense here when he says that Krum doesn’t just want to be a penpal, and the way he and Harry discuss the situation, it’s as if they assume Hermione and Krum have something between them [what does she see in him? he’s older, a famous athlete – paraphrasing]. So are we too to assume Hermione isn’t fully disclosing?



Mirror of Erised and will Harry seek death or life to fulfill deepest desires?

Turambar
I have a question, it's a bit general but has implications for shipping: does Harry's vision in the Mirror of Erised in PS mean that he desires to know and be with his family (who are all dead) or that he desires a family of his own? The reason I ask is because it seems to me that JKR may be making Ron's vision come true.So could both visions happen? But Harry will only know his family by dying, won't he? Yet gaining a family of his own would mean creating that family, it wouldn't involve any of the people he saw in the mirror.
noddwyd
Hmm, it's possible some of the people in the background were actually his descendants, not the other way around, you're right. But then, why did it show his parents, in particular? There is really no other way for him to see them again than thorugh death. But he will one day die, just like everyone else, so it could all fit.

Truthfully, I think that what you see in the mirror will change over time. Harry may not see the same thing if he ever looks into the mirror again. Ron may not either. They have matured. Especially Harry. This is another thing that Hermione was mysteriously left out of for whatever reason. We don't know what she would see in the mirror. Maybe it will appear again? It would be interesting, if it did.

Yes I think it possible that the Mirror revealed a family past and future [wonder if any at present?]. I also think it possible that were Harry to look in the Mirror again after sharing an deep, abiding, and unconditional soulmate love with another, he would see perhaps a different, expanded reflection. I don’t think his longing for his parents and other family will ever disappear, but it may be expanded or tempered to include a future for Harry. One that might include his own immediate family and perhaps a view of himself in future [with mate, children, etc]. That is, I think the introduction of this sort of love would change Harry’s present and future, and thus his deepest desires.

The critical item here is that such a change would enable Harry to realise some of those deepest desires in his current and future reality, reserving others [meeting parents] for another time and place. Additionally, Harry may perhaps come to understand in the formation of his own family that he has in essence met his parents in himself. As Dumbledore said, Harry has already ‘met’ or known his father [in the patronus], and we know the same applies to Harry’s blood and his ‘rune’ scar [I like that very much, Flying Phoenix] from his mother. Plus, of course, her eyes. There is something of Lily’s soul in Harry. And we know he shares many of James’ traits, though these are good and bad.



Harry’s true quest: securing love or defeating evil [Voldemort]?


[b]Hawk92
But the more that Harry tries to connect with his past the more he is thrust into the future. The old saying "You can't go home again" seems to fit. To me the Mirror of Esired gave us Harry's true quest, finding his family. Now most will say that the point of the books is Harry defeating Voldemort, perhaps, but Harry does not actively quest to fight Voldemort. Harry's true quest is not vengence but to protect his friends and loved ones.

This is why I believe Harry's finding romance to be essential to the plot of these stories. Since JKR has seperated Harry from his family in the past, Harry will be moving towards the future. The finding of his own family (MO with Hermione). Now if it wasn't essential I don't think that JKR would have introduced Harry's deepest desire (his family) or the romance at all. If one wants to see how to keep romance in a story in the back reads the LOTR books or the Narnia series. Tolkein keeps the romance in the background and Lewis doesn't introduce it at all.

Hawk, very good points. For certain Harry’s true quest is not vengeance, I agree. I do think that part of what Harry will learn is that the only way to connect with his past and his parents is to acknowledge their presence within himself as he moves into his future. I think that Turambar has a good point re: support network refusing to let Harry slip away. Harry may try, he may skirt the edge of the abyss, and it may take some to reach him; in fact, if Harry is not deeply in shock and despair for a respectable amount of time, the books will have lost some realism for me. However I too hope and believe in the end one or more will be successful in reaching Harry and saving him from himself. And I think even now, the importance of protecting those close to him is important to Harry. As he fully accepts his unique obligation re: Voldemort, Harry will surely realise that distancing himself from those for whom he loves and cares will only increase their risk.

I too think that Harry views or will come to view his struggle against Voldemort in a fashion probably quite similar to that which you describe. Although I think that Tom Riddle and Harry are deeply connected as well and differ largely by the choices they’ve made, choices which shaped their fundamental character almost from the beginning. Choices, and the unconditional love of another (Lily) that Tom never received. I think this is what Lily’s eyes – and Harry’s eyes – represent. That power beyond all others. And I think this is how Harry will overcome Voldemort – by redeeming Tom with the same unconditional love Harry learns [through giving and receiving this love with another, IMO] to give first himself, to heal his own darkness, and then to Tom. I think once Harry learns these lessons, he will already have come to understand in his heart that his parents have been with him all along. This understanding will IMO finally free Harry to hope for a future, and [I hope] free him to make that hope a reality.




Flying Phoenix
By LotR was it always there. The ring was always around Frodos neck. It was about the ring and Frodo but not much about Frodos desire or his seeking. Thats the biggest different between HP and LotR. HP is about Harry, complett about Harry. But LotR is not only about Frodo. [b]You can even read it at the book names thats why the slightly romance between the sub-characters was possible.

Now to what Harry and Voldemort share is the power which Voldemort know this is the deadly power. But the power which Voldemort don't knows is love. Voldemort knows hate, dead how he can torture someone but he don't know love. Not how to love and beloved. This Harry knows even its not that strong till now but It will be. Its needed because Its again between right and easy. Its easy to hate but right to love even the time is difficult.

Well said re: easy v. right. And good point regarding the possible subtextual implications of titles.


Earendil
Daveydee, I personally enjoyed your theory very much. It makes perfect sense to me and fits in well with the overall moral scheme of the series [that of sacrifice and the power of love]. Plus, I have no personal problem with the concept of Harry/Luna, which is why this theory is not at all hard for me to swallow (as it would be if any other girl besides Hermione was put in the place you've designated for Luna, but I suppose that's another story).

However. Your theory suggests that Harry dies, while allowing Tom Riddle (not the Dark Lord) to live. This Tom Riddle is mortal, naturally, which would enable anyone to kill him, obviously. But will Harry simply allow the mortal Tom Riddle to live while he takes his own life? Doesn't that leave a lot of loose ends and potential for future trouble?

I'll admit that you lost me a little towards the beginning, but for the most part I see exactly where you're going with this speculation and it's definitely an interesting idea. I especially liked what you said here:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daveydee
And what of Harry after this? It will be the fourth time that love has been taken from him. I feel that this will be one time too many. For seven years, his life will have been lived in the cause of others. Finally it will be time to do something for himself. I truly believe that he will walk proudly and with his held high through the veil and fulfil what we learned in book 1 is his hearts deepest desire – to be with his loved ones.


Earendil, I can see this ending as well but I confess I hope for another. However, I could also accept Luna [and no other] with Harry if for some reason JKR does not pair Harry and Hermione. I do think Luna is the only other character, aside from Hermione, to date who can match Harry’s depth, in her own wise and offbeat manner. DaveyDee, quite an interesting theory and although I think it possible Luna may reveal certain untold things re: secret DoM work in which Lily and her own mother may have been involved, I don’t see further direct parallels. Though Luna does seem the sort to love all those in her chosen sphere unconditionally, I’ll grant you. However, if Luna is slated to die, then IMO [as I don’t think Ginny is remotely believable as Harry’s love interest] that has some serious plot implications.

1) Ron is left empty-handed [or paired with person as afterthought] if R/Hr doesn’t happen. Increases odds of Ron’s witting or unwitting betrayal, along with increasing odds of his own death. Arguably, increases odds of death for others in trio as well.
2) Harry is left empty-handed [or paired with person as afterthought – really hope this doesn’t occur as will dilute focus on main themes, IMO], allowing for possible ‘love of friends’ conquers all if Harry can nonetheless tap in to his power beyond all others to overcome Voldemort/ redeem Tom. Greatly ncreases odds of Harry’s sacrifice @end.
And further…
I don’t know if everyone here remembers certain of noddwyd’s posts from the past 2 prior threads on the cyclic and recurring nature of evil and violence. I.e., if Voldemort is defeated or just outright killed, another will arise in time to take his place. [Or, with his weird dark magic, V. himself seems capable of coming back again and again, like a bad dream]. Evil must be faced and countered on a continual basis, whenever it arises. Moreover, countering darkness and violence with more of the same only escalates, producing a downward spiral of violence, death, and destruction – no matter one’s good intent.

It is possible, I suppose,that the force of Harry’s power could redeem Tom without violence or UC’s, purge Voldemort, and still result in Harry’s death, leaving Harry’s shadows, Neville and Krum, to carry on, but that would be tragic and can anyone step in to replace Harry? Won’t he only have attained the key at that very moment? And then who will pass on that key knowledge to the others, such that they too will possess knowledge of The Way to truly overcome evil, fear, hatred, to overcome darkness and despair?. Therefore I’m hoping that the interpretation of neither living whilst the other survives will be satisfied if Voldemort ‘dies’, or ceases to exist, leaving open the possibility of Harry and even Tom surviving.

I agree with DaveyDee, noddwyd, and others in that I think Tom Riddle is potentially redeemable by Harry [and probably by no other], with my own particular qualifications: if Harry can unlock the secret of his power beyond all others, and if Harry has overcome darkness and can enfold Tom in that power, that Light. Further, I think that the dual natures of the serpent apply to Harry, to Harry/Tom, and to Tom [Voldemort]. And only if Harry is able to use his power beyond all others to reach through his own darkness and transform his dark bond with Tom/Voldemort to one of light, then Harry can ultimately reach Tom, just Tom. I am not sure if Tom would live or die in process of being redeemed. However, Voldemort would die or cease to exist, and that’s the ultimate objective for me, good [Harry] overcoming evil [Voldemort]. My secret hope is that in so doing, good [Harry] remains and thrives.

evaluna

1) Ron is left empty-handed [or paired with person as afterthought] if R/Hr doesn’t happen. Increases odds of Ron’s witting or unwitting betrayal, along with increasing odds of his own death. Arguably, increases odds of death for others in trio as well.
2) Harry is left empty-handed [or paired with person as afterthought – really hope this doesn’t occur as will dilute focus on main themes, IMO], allowing for possible ‘love of friends’ conquers all if Harry can nonetheless tap in to his power beyond all others to overcome Voldemort/ redeem Tom. Greatly ncreases odds of Harry’s sacrifice @end.
I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here. Care to expand on these points?

Daveydee

evaluna

Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Ron is left empty-handed [or paired with person as afterthought] if R/Hr doesn’t happen. Increases odds of Ron’s witting or unwitting betrayal, along with increasing odds of his own death. Arguably, increases odds of death for others in trio as well.
2) Harry is left empty-handed [or paired with person as afterthought – really hope this doesn’t occur as will dilute focus on main themes, IMO], allowing for possible ‘love of friends’ conquers all if Harry can nonetheless tap in to his power beyond all others to overcome Voldemort/ redeem Tom. Greatly ncreases odds of Harry’s sacrifice @end.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here. Care to expand on these points?

I’ll try;) Disregarding Ginny [for me, not viable], then if Luna dies, there remains only Hermione as most likely candidate for a deep and abiding love interest for Harry. In terms of depth of character as written in canon. For me, this is primary, else I’d rather Harry go it solo, as I feel a superficial relationship will not ‘key’ him in to the secrets of the power he possesses beyond all others, and would divert his focus. As opposed to a deep and abiding love, which would sustain his focus. If no deep love, better he relies on the deep friendships and mentors he already has, yeah? However, whether Hermione chooses another or whether Harry goes it solo for some other reason [can't come to terms with his feelings, just doesn’t find that sort of love, loves another and loses her – your Luna theory, or similar], IMO if Harry has no one to tie him to his deepest desires of love and family, specifically his own, then he will be much likely to sacrifice himself [dying in battle, walking through the Veil, or similar].

For Ron, IMO he is not adverse to Luna and arguably may like/have a crush on Hermione already. If in fact Ron is not in deeply love with Hermione, then potentially he could respond to Luna’s seeming affections for him at some point in future. Additionally Luna may be critical to Ron’s getting on with things if Hermione doesn’t return any feelings beyond friendship. If Luna dies, however, there remains only Hermione, who already may be the object of at least two other gents’ affections: Krum and Harry. Hermione will, we assume, eventually make her choice. If Ron is not her choice and there is no Luna to love and comfort him, Ron’s odds of succumbing to his envy and resentment of Harry increase, as do his odds for betrayal, perhaps unwittingly or in rash anger. These are not predictions of certainty but rather just speculation on the increasing odds, or likelihood, of certain events happening.

As Turambar hinted, it’s also possible Harry will be forced to choose between Krum [ally in battle, friend of Hermione’s, who is Harry’s other best friend] and Ron [best friend and Harry’s strategist in battle, we suppose] if Hermione goes with Krum, or if for any reason Krum perhaps is viewed as a fifth wheel by Ron or as interfering in the trio’s relationships with one another. There’s a lot more I could say comparing the merits of Krum’s character from canon, and also both the merits and failings of Ron’s character in canon, but I’ll leave that for now. Suffice it to say that it seems to me that Krum is less likely to be corrupted than Ron at present, particularly once Harry teaches him to throw off the imperius curse! However, I’m not giving up on Ron. He may yet regain that loyalty and strength of character we saw prior to GoF.

Right, I see. Thanks evaluna.

Assuming that you are specifically addressing the theory I posted on the previous page, much of what you're saying, therefore deals with events beyond the conclusion of the series.

On the specific shippy (Ugh! Yes, I know - all roads lead there) points concerning Luna and Ron. As I've argued previously I see this playing out in the next book as the catalyst for R/Hr (and also incidentally, in view of my latest theory as the seed of H/L). So I don't see that being an issue at the end of book 7.

Regarding Krum - I can see merit in his return in book 6 (DADA teacher perhaps - automatically excluding him as as a partner for Hermione?). Maybe as an additional catalyst for R/Hr - the denouement perhaps being the revelation that there was never anything in his relationship with Hermione other than friendship. Even though he might have wanted that in GoF, she didn't (she was saving herself for Ron :D )

I don't see WHY in this world can't Harry have the slightest chance to pair up with Ginny?? I don't really think Luna or Hermione could. Luna is way too weird and is always drifting in space, she couldn't and wouldn't care about a relationship with Harry. Harry just feels sorry for her. And Hermione and Harry have NEVER shown an actual concrete clue that they like each other.
Creating theories excusing every single time Harry pays attention to Ginny, and saying it will happen and there's no point in arguing will not make it happen.
JK Rowling will decide who Harry ends up with, and she already has, obviously, because most of the clues of what will happen are already in the books.

I think Neville felt that she was his only choice since none of the other girls has ever shown kindness to him.

Just going to butt in. How do you know if none of the other girls have ever shown kindness to him. If I'm not mistaken I remember Parvati sticking up for him in the first book. Of course, I'm not going to make a shipper argument for them.

He only carries her because he wouldn't fight the DEs with his broken wand and broken nose.

Not that he wouldn't it's because he couldn't.


Sometimes I think that they are ending up toguether

Whoever said this I disagree. I don't think that Hermione and Neville will end up together. Mainly because I have another idea of who Hermione will get with. That and I also think that Neville might die by the books end.

There is always the other half. I'm sure they're way more knowledgable about Voldemort than Ginny is.

Sure there are others that are more knowledgeable about Voldemort. But Ginny may be more knowledgeable about Tom.

On another note. For all shippers of D/G can you explain why you like the idea of Draco and Ginny. Is it because there's that feel of Romeo and Juliette to them? Or do you think there's romantic chemistry between them in their one or two scenes together? Or do you ship D/G because you also ship H/Hr, tha is, if you're also an H/Hr shipper?

Hey,
ana_banana
I don't see WHY in this world can't Harry have the slightest chance to pair up with Ginny?? I don't really think Luna or Hermione could. Luna is way too weird and is always drifting in space, she couldn't and wouldn't care about a relationship with Harry. Harry just feels sorry for her.
You could be right, but we don't really know too much about Luna to know for sure what she's could or would not care for.
And Hermione and Harry have NEVER shown an actual concrete clue that they like each other.
Really? well i think alot of people on here will disagree with you, we don't all have the same views, Obviously if there wasn't anyone who didn't see Harry and Hermione as a potential couple then this thread would be very boring, because you'de all be agreeing with each other.

Creating theories excusing every single time Harry pays attention to Ginny, and saying it will happen and there's no point in arguing will not make it happen.
Creating theories? you say that like its a bad thing. :whistle:
Everyone does it here, yes even H/G shippers, but thats fine, because thats what this part of the forums about, right?

JK Rowling will decide who Harry ends up with, and she already has, obviously, because most of the clues of what will happen are already in the books.
Yep she's already decided it to in my opinon, he going to end up with Hermione :D

I'm going to disagree with you, Buckbeak. The clues are laid out for Harry and Ginny. :D

I'm sorry but what is everyone getting at? It's quite confusing for me to pick up everything that's going on and I don't want to seem like a complete dunce so can someone steer me in the path of what everyone's discussing. Thanks.

Its all about symbolism. What we talk about. Mainly about the runes which Hermione did missread.
I for once do wonder "Why?" Hermione even could missread this runes thats curious for me. Because If you go at on of the links from page34 in my post than you see that one rune "the defence" one looks like Harrys scar. The other one looks like a "M".
Now imagine you learn this stuff you know Harry Potter and his story. You see this rune and learns in classes Its mean "defence". This makes a picture for you. You can learn this rune by hearth much easier because you can compare it with something else what is always around you this say "Harry Potter".
But by Hermione did this go wrong. So wrong that she actuelly only in this exame of her OWLs did make a mistake. Thats strange.
Why couldn't she remember that eihwaz means "defence" and ehwaz "partnership"? Why did she write this wrong in the first place?
See to remember abstract things with comparing to common things which are always around you is a very popular technique and I expect that Hermione learn stuff like that.

Now patnership is something very different as defence and both runes don't look alike though the names are alike. But Hermione did get it after she did finish the exame this say she might have remember that her picture, or remember help isn't complett right. This say she didn't think of Harry as someone who was protected, better she didn't even think at first about his scar and how it looks alike with the runes. She was focused to his character.
Thats why she missread the runes. This technique went wrong by her thats probably even the reason why she wanted that he quiz her for history.

She did compare eihwaz with "partnership" and ehwaz with "defence" thats wrong and thats the reason why she did it wrong. She did learn it wrong and she did remember this runes which looks like Harrys scar wrong. This is interesting. This shows somehow how she learn stuff.

I know you will asl "Can't Hermione just do something wrong?" I agree she can but JKR did choice this two runes which one looks like Harrys scar and a Hermione who did mess this up though this is the most simple way to learn this rune and still she make a mistake? Thats a little bit much to believe.

Anyway something from GoF what keeps wondering about.
Its as Harry, Ron and Hermione visit Hagrid after Durmstrang and this french school did turn up. Its Helloween. Hermione think Its a great Idea that Hagrid might be a member for SPEW. She turns and want take this from the griffindor tower. I will quote what Ron says and overall what Harry says.
What's she like?" said Ron, exasperated, as Hermione ran away up the marble staircase. "Hey Ron," said Harry suddenly. "Its your friend..."

Thats strange very strange. I mean firsts is Hermione only Rons friend and than Harry don't speak further. He break up. Its like that in canon.

Once I did argue that Ron is just nosy about Hermione nothing more. Thats why he did keep asking where she is, who is her date and all this stuff. R/Hr did disagree there is no proof that Ron is indeed nosy because he is it only by Hermione. I couldn't proof it wrong though I knew its not right but now I reread GoF. I found it.
Having a nosy git like you for a brother." said George This is as Ron keeps asking what about they talk. Ron and not nosy, heh? I don't think so thats why he did keep asking by Hermione too. She has at times secrets and Ron don't like to be in the dark thats why he ask and is wondering about Hermione. No proof for liking her more as a friend, or?

Isn't It kinda strange that Crouch jr. did train Harry to resist the imperious curse? Its as If he had an own thing with Harry so he could kill him.

Hello all:
I'm posting this message from Pansy per her request, to all her friends on the love thread who may be interested in her family situation:


Original post by Pansy
Hello! I'm sorry I've been away again. I missed a weekend, then the thread was shut down. After that, things got busy.

Wanted you to know, and you can tell the others that we finally have a diagnosis on my daughter, but its not the best news. She had an EEG done on 9/5 and it was abnormal. She has a rare form of Epilepsy called Infantile Spasms, and it is also the most "devastating". 50% of children with "IS" usual develope normally after the seizures are stopped. Of the "other" 50%, they usually have "IS" due to an underlying neurological problem, and of that 50%, 80% end up with severe mental retardation, and 20% do not live past the age of 5.

We are hopeful we caught this early, and that my baby will be a part of the "good" 50% - all of her previous test results were normal, so we have no reason not to think she will be apart of that group, other than she was having delays before the seizures started. If someone hadn't told me what to look for, I wouldn't have realized she was having seizures at all!

Anyway, we are seeking a second opinion regarding treatment on Thursday at UCLA, and she will begin treatment on Friday the 26th which will keep her in the hospital for up to 2 weeks - the whole treatment is 6 weeks. The treatment is a steroid injection that has very risky side effects, but also has good results with 80% of patients responding well to the drug and being seizure free!

I'll check back when I can. Again, you can pass this along to the others in the Love Thread. I know everyone knew something was going on, and I'd appreciate the prayers and positive thoughts. I'm going to be busy the next 7 weeks with her treatment, but I'll try to check in when I can. Thanks!

Pansy

Alright, where is ONE clue that something might happen between H/Hr, and you know what I mean by something?
And creating theories is not bad, but its not fair to create theories just so your ship will have more chances.
But claiming something, like it is extremely official that Harry and Hermione will end up together, because you said so, ignoring the fact that JK has said they won't, that there are no clues on the books for it.....thats just not viable.

By the way, Pansy, I don't know you very well....but I'm praying for you!!!

I think we all need to get off the runes thing. Although Rowling will sometimes stick in little hints, I think this is nothing more than trying to illustrate Hermoines worrisome self. She did almost the same thing after the written part of her charms exam, so clearly this is just one of her character traits. To take it father than that is maybe looking to deeply into it.

I also wish all the best to Pansy. Good Luck. :tu:

Best wishes Pansy. The Maori (where I'm from, NZ) have a saying "Kia kaha" which means stand strong.

Posted by Evaluna:
Presumably his integrity will carry the day if he loses out on Hermione’s affection? Because it’s not as if there is anyone similar who might catch his eye, correct? OR do you think [by some stretch] then Ginny or Cho might go for him, as he does have much in common with Harry??? Sorry, that’s a bit out there, but just wondering if he’ll be paired or left empty-handed if he and Hermione are not destined to become an item – and as of GoF she did still seem to give Harry priority, for whatever reason, and this continued through OoP vis-à-vis Ron, but Krum was of course not present. It’s interesting that Hermione was writing Krum such a long letter in OoP; what exactly do they discuss…? However, if Hermione was being truthful, then to her Krum remains a penpal. Note that Ron’s not so dense here when he says that Krum doesn’t just want to be a penpal, and the way he and Harry discuss the situation, it’s as if they assume Hermione and Krum have something between them [what does she see in him? he’s older, a famous athlete – paraphrasing]. So are we too to assume Hermione isn’t fully disclosing?


I'm really curious as to why JKR has two shadow Harrys (Viktor, Neville) and what she intends to do with them.
They both - potentially - threaten Ron's place as Harry's male best friend. And why was Ron made more of a background figure in OOTP?
I suppose V/C or V/G is possible but personally I think with Viktor it's Hermione or no-one: there's no point having yet another romantic subplot, his value as a character is his interaction with the trio, he was serious about Hermione. I can't really see Cho being in the picture now. Maybe the boys noticed a bit of intensity about Hermione's feelings to do with Krum. I think they are friends but there was a bit of attraction there from Hermione's side: mainly to do with Krum being nice in her view, good to talk to more mature. I always thought it was interesting that Harry and Hermione both pretty quickly decided Krum was a good guy once they'd talked to him a bit.

*hugs* to Pansy; our prayers are with you and your family. (Also thanks to evaluna for posting the info for us.)

GilyAnn,

Harry's does it worst. Ron thinks that the Elf's should know what they are picking up. I agree with him. Ron has no idea if the Elf's are picking up the hats or not. He simply puts in vision for them so they know what they are picking up. IF they want to pick it up. Harry instead not only knows what the Elf's are doing but but doesn't let Hermione in the problem. Knowing that the place is looking a bit disorganized. Hermione keeps on doing the hats and placing them. Do we see Ron after it putting the hats in vision. NO, we only see it once. Harry in the other hand, not only doesn't care for Hermione's efforts but show lack of friendship when he doesn't even warn her that her tactics are not working. This goes on for a year and Harry doesn't even bother to tell her once. At least Ron is straighforward with his opinion.

Ron is straightforward by not telling Hermione that he sabotaged her efforts behind her back? I'm sorry, but the point here is that both Harry and Ron were dishonest with Hermione to some degree in this incident, whether any of us likes it or not. The question here is WHY Harry shows lack of feeling or friendship for Hermione by attempting to spare her feelings by being dishonest with her, while Ron behaved 'better' in this situation by doing something she specifically ASKED him not to do, behind her back, and then not telling her about it. You mentioned that Ron didn't know if the elves were picking up the hats or not: so what? The fact still remains that he knew that Hermione's plan wasn't going the way she thought it was, and he neglected to tell her. Isn't that essentially the same thing Harry did?

Because that what's friends do. Keep a secret. Evidently Hermione didn't want anyone to know and she trusted Ginny with her secret. That scene clearly shows the loyalty that Ginny has and that she won't break a secret for no one. Not even her brother or the guy she 'fancies'. Ginny clearly says that it isn't her business so if Hermione didn't tell him she isn't going to do it either. Trully a sign of loyalty.

You didn't answer my original question. If Ginny wanted Ron and Hermione to get together, why is there absolutely no evidence of her taking an active interest in the status of their 'potential' relationship? From an author's perspective, isn't this a good opportunity to show that someone (outside of the reader fandom) is actually rooting for Ron and Hermione to get together? And if Ms. Rowling intended to show Ginny shipping R/Hr in the passage you cited, why not show at least a hint of Ginny wanting to play matchmaker or fueling Ron's jealousy even further?

On Harry's age, yes. The other wiser wizards are not here to tell the story, I'm sure half are not even alive.

The age is irrelevant. My original point was that Ginny is not the only human being on the planet to have encountered Voldemort, as many readers seem determined to point out in order to support the proverbial bond that is supposed to link Harry and Ginny together.

ana_banana,

I don't see WHY in this world can't Harry have the slightest chance to pair up with Ginny??

No one implied that he couldn't.

And Hermione and Harry have NEVER shown an actual concrete clue that they like each other.
Alright, where is ONE clue that something might happen between H/Hr, and you know what I mean by something?

I suggest that you refer to the many arguments that have been posted from my shipmates and myself in the past several editions of this thread. Depending on your definition of 'concrete' and 'something', I'm sure that you will find that there are many interpretable arguments put forth for the H/Hr ship.

Creating theories excusing every single time Harry pays attention to Ginny, and saying it will happen and there's no point in arguing will not make it happen.

Creating theories to account for a mysterious attraction Harry has had for Ginny since Book 1 and saying it will happen and there's no point in arguing will not make H/G happen. Please remember that we are all speculating and theorizing, and that no one ship's theories are automatically more valid than another's, unless Ms. Rowling herself happens to be sailing it.

JK Rowling will decide who Harry ends up with, and she already has, obviously, because most of the clues of what will happen are already in the books.

I agree.

And creating theories is not bad, but its not fair to create theories just so your ship will have more chances.

I'm confused. Do we not formulate theories based on canon in order to reinforce our shipping arguments? Then what is your point in the above?

But claiming something, like it is extremely official that Harry and Hermione will end up together, because you said so, ignoring the fact that JK has said they won't, that there are no clues on the books for it.....thats just not viable.

I agree. Fortunately, no one to my knowledge has done so in this thread. And I may also point out that I wasn't aware of Ms. Rowling saying that Harry and Hermione will not get together. Could you please point me to this quote?

If you go to the possible couples (book six) page on this website there are many quotes in the R/Hr part where JKR says that H/hr will not happen or at least alludes to it (to the best of my memory)

And I may also point out that I wasn't aware of Ms. Rowling saying that Harry and Hermione will not get together. Could you please point me to this quote?

Don't bother. It does not exist.

Pansy: My thoughts and prayers go to you and your family.


Originally posted by Earendil: The age is irrelevant. My original point was that Ginny is not the only human being on the planet to have encountered Voldemort, as many readers seem determined to point out in order to support the proverbial bond that is supposed to link Harry and Ginny together.

I believe age is the issue here. They both have met Voldemort and survived. I think the others of the hex unit can have a simple understanding of evil on an intellectual level, but it is different to experience it first-hand, if that makes sense. Both Harry and Ginny have experienced it first hand and both have survived. I think that Harry survived this for a lot of different reasons, also he is simply fated to do so, but Ginny, I feel, simply survived this experience by sheer force of will. Quirrell was possessed and died. I find it amazing that Ginny has survived. Their respective experiences with Voldemort give them a shared perspective, which I feel is important in giving Harry a love interest who can truly understand him.

[

Flying Phoenix
She did compare eihwaz with "partnership" and ehwaz with "defence" thats wrong and thats the reason why she did it wrong. She did learn it wrong and she did remember this runes which looks like Harrys scar wrong. This is interesting. This shows somehow how she learn stuff.

FP: LOL! Yeah I think that's it! She got them mixed up b/c when she thinks Harry, she thinks partnership! So she associated the wrong meaning with the rune that looked like his scar, yeah? Makes perfect sense, actually ;)

Earendil
Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by ana_banana
Alright, where is ONE clue that something might happen between H/Hr, and you know what I mean by something?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I suggest that you refer to the many arguments that have been posted from my shipmates and myself in the past several editions of this thread. Depending on your definition of 'concrete' and 'something', I'm sure that you will find that there are many interpretable arguments put forth for the H/Hr ship.

Yes, as Earendil says, there are many 'big hints'! I had a post that listed several points, around ten or so, as did many other H/Hr posters...I suspect it was from that d*mn thread no. 4 [post OoP] that seems to have disappeared [!], but I'll see if I can locate, perhaps tomorrow...If I'm lucky, the one I'm thinking of was from an even earlier thread? Turambar, have we had any luck yet with mods locating that thread?


Turambar

I'm really curious as to why JKR has two shadow Harrys (Viktor, Neville) and what she intends to do with them. They both - potentially - threaten Ron's place as Harry's male best friend.

And why was Ron made more of a background figure in OOTP?

I suppose V/C or V/G is possible but personally I think with Viktor it's Hermione or no-one: there's no point having yet another romantic subplot, his value as a character is his interaction with the trio, he was serious about Hermione. I can't really see Cho being in the picture now. Maybe the boys noticed a bit of intensity about Hermione's feelings to do with Krum. I think they are friends but there was a bit of attraction there from Hermione's side: mainly to do with Krum being nice in her view, good to talk to more mature. I always thought it was interesting that Harry and Hermione both pretty quickly decided Krum was a good guy once they'd talked to him a bit.

Turambar, I'm curious, too. And, as many had done with Luna, I always thought Viktor would play a much larger role as well, even if he didn't become romantically involved with anyone. Yeah, agreed, he did seem serious about Hermione, so he'd need some down time if she did choose another.

Yes! I have noticed repeatedly, as did you and Ecthelion with the post-quidditch final 'procession' [coronation or funeral? could be either...], as with the 6th step fall from Hermione and being laid out at Harry's feet in Ch. 17, as with the repeated absences at strategic times [Valentines Day, all the forest episodes, and IMO the critical No. 12 scene with 'reaching' Harry and bringing him back from isolation to connection] that Ron is not present. And he was not instrumental in conceiving the initial DA meeting, either, though he and others assisted in carrying out the plan. Ron is noticeably reluctant to confront Harry in OoP as well, IMO because he is conflicted, or, torn between love and resentment of Harry. All of this bodes ill for Ron, IMO, though exactly how [death? and of Ron or caused by Ron? or perhaps betrayal by Ron?] I am not sure...Ron's weaknesses may be spotted and sorely tested by the other side, I'm afraid.

And yes, how interesting that Hermione and Harry like Viktor, whilst the most Ron did was reluctantly get his autograph. Why was [is?] Ron so slow to see Viktor for who he really was? At best, Ron's perceived crush on Hermione may not allow Ron to accept Viktor as a friend. Ron may see Viktor as a rival for Hermione's heart and further, for Harry's friendship, as you say. And, whilst Viktor sees Harry as an equal [and suspects Harry as a rival for Hermione], Ron is more just a fan and someone he recognises as a friend of Harry and Hermione's. It's as if there is yet another trio forming, Harry/Hermione/Viktor and Ron lies outside of it. From the DoM episode, there is still another potential trio, Harry/Hermione/Neville, and Ron lies outside this one too. So isn't this likely to add to Ron's resentment [if he doesn't die] and increase his likelihood of betrayal or at least cutting ties with the other two if Hermione doesn't choose him, and cutting ties with Harry even if she does? The latter then hardly makes sense, as Hermione won't cut ties with Harry just to please Ron, I'm fairly certain.
Cheers all and till later:
Stand strong~

If you think that Harry doesn't care for Hermione's efforts then you certainly read that part wrong. The whole reason Harry didn't tell Hermione about Dobby picking up the Elf hats is because he didn't want to hurt her feelings, yes it probably would have been better if he did tell her, but Harry was only thinking of her which is why he didn't.
Besides even if he had told her, she would have just done something else that would have probably been even more extreme, so in his own way he was helping the elves as well, because at least they knew that hermione was hiding the elf hats. so if Hermione goes on with thinking that the hats are being taken then she won't do anything else.
Ron was honest with her but he did lie to her too.

He doesn't, because if he would care he would have had the heart to tell her to change her tactics. He would have told her the minute he found out. That is important to Hermione instead of letting her carry on.

And your point is? Just because Cho goes together with Michael doesn't mean that Cho will stay with Michael. Furthermore, how does this play into a possible Harry and Ginny relationship? Just because their ex's get together doesn't mean that Harry and Ginny has to get together; I find that hopelessly cheesy and cliched.

Jane Austen uses it on Emma. If the Victor and Cho were "jealous' is evidence the fact that these two ended up toguether makes also evidence.

sure...so it shows Ginny's "true sign of loyalty" to mind her own business. However, it still doesn't prove anything in regard to her reaction to a Ron and Hermione possible relationship. In fact I think that she seems more hesitant about Ron and Hermione; after that fight who wouldn't?

Yet she still gets even closer with Hermione after that fight. :whistle: OoP has everyone talking about their great friendship. If something was clear on OoP was that Ron and Harry and Hermione and Ginny are two sets of great friends. :tu: I loved how JKR portrait their friendship.

If she does want to play matchmaker, Ginny's remark would indeed be very different. She would have been more playful and tease her brother. Instead, her reaction was cold and abrupt.

Where is it that Ginny wants to play matchmaker? I don't recall Ginny saying that. The fact that Ginny refuses to tell Ron it says that she minds her own business.

By that, I'm assuming you mean that she "looks" like a girl right? Of course not. Hermione had to "tell" him that.

Nope Ron actually looked at Hermione in different light before that.

Correction: one that HE is attracted to, not BE attractive to. Afterall, we don't know Hermione's opinion on Ron; from their conversations (the onces that don't end in big fights), Hermione doesn't think very much of him.

Correction in GoF Ron still hasn't fully realized his feelings towards Hermione. BTW that's your opinion mine if very diferent regarding what Hermione thinks of Ron.

I think not. IMO, Neville views Hermione as a very helping friend. He would feel happy to go with Hermione because she has been kind to him since their first year. The reason why I don't think Neville had a crush on Hermione was because after Hermione rejected him, Neville went right along and asked Ginny (possibly right in front of Hermione since Ginny knew about it) So, obviously, he wasn't hurt by the rejection.

Oh I think yes. Hermione even looks surprised when Neville's grandmother mentions her. It has been very clear to me that Neville has always been interested in Hermione. Neville even tells (sulks) with Ron when Hermione rejects him. Ginny was just his last resort. Obviously he didn't mind that she did other things since she met Michael Corner that night.

Lucius knew about Hermione too, in fact in the beginning of their second year. So am I do assume Draco had a crush on Hermione too?

Tell that to the D/Hr shippers who believe that he does. But my point of view is the fact that Hermione is muggleborn. She is taking the glory and the first places on what should be Draco's place. That's a different issue.

Hermione's possible relationship with...

Neville: Passive relationship where the female dominates and will always be right.

Ron: Radical relationship where both parties are unable to compromise due to their similar personalities. Both are stubborn about their difference of opinions, therefore are unable to reach a solution or resolve their problems. Because of this, their conversations usually end in fights.

Harry: The ultimate relationship where both parties complement each other in their difference of personalities. Both play the dominant role and the non-dominate (recessive?) role. They're able to compromise and come up with solutions to their problems. Although both may not have the same approach to problems, generally, their views on certain things are similar.

Yes Neville really sound goods for Hermione. Harry and Hermione's relationship in my eyes couldn't be more wrong, IMO. Ron and Hermione still have some issues but are getting close so for now. Neville is the winner.

I don't see WHY in this world can't Harry have the slightest chance to pair up with Ginny?? I don't really think Luna or Hermione could. Luna is way too weird and is always drifting in space, she couldn't and wouldn't care about a relationship with Harry. Harry just feels sorry for her. And Hermione and Harry have NEVER shown an actual concrete clue that they like each other.
Creating theories excusing every single time Harry pays attention to Ginny, and saying it will happen and there's no point in arguing will not make it happen.
JK Rowling will decide who Harry ends up with, and she already has, obviously, because most of the clues of what will happen are already in the books.


Word, Ana Banana! In five books Harry and Hermione have not shown any type of romantic feelings towards each other. On the contrary they show more and more signs of being friends but that's it. Friends which are usually victims of people's insecurities coughvictorandchocough. Luna I trully believe that JKR wants us to feel sorry for her because of something. Only book 6 will tells us so for now I'll leave her alone.

Whoever said this I disagree. I don't think that Hermione and Neville will end up together. Mainly because I have another idea of who Hermione will get with. That and I also think that Neville might die by the books end.

That was me and sometimes I trully believe that they are. I don't think that Neville will die. I think he will be the one that stays at Howgarts as a profesor.

Question FP:

What page of OoP is the runes thing that you are talking about?

Ron is straightforward by not telling Hermione that he sabotaged her efforts behind her back? I'm sorry, but the point here is that both Harry and Ron were dishonest with Hermione to some degree in this incident, whether any of us likes it or not. The question here is WHY Harry shows lack of feeling or friendship for Hermione by attempting to spare her feelings by being dishonest with her, while Ron behaved 'better' in this situation by doing something she specifically ASKED him not to do, behind her back, and then not telling her about it. You mentioned that Ron didn't know if the elves were picking up the hats or not: so what? The fact still remains that he knew that Hermione's plan wasn't going the way she thought it was, and he neglected to tell her. Isn't that essentially the same thing Harry did?


Yes but to me Harry does it worst than Ron. Ron may have put the Elf hat on view but he is not to blame for Hermione's failure of the plan because Hermione kept on doing it after that. We don't see Ron after that running after her putting the hats on view. Is the Elf's the ones who don't want to pick up the hats. Is the Elf's the ones that are finding the hats and are running away. Ron is not to blame for Hermione's failure of the plan. Hermione is to blame becuase she still don't consider the Elf's feelings. Dobby tell us that the hats are being found hidden. So blaming Ron for Hermione's failure is just far. He has no idea what's going on. Harry on the other hand knows what's going on but he doesn't bother to tell her. He doesn't even tell Ron. At least that way there was a small chance that Hermione would know about it. This since Ron was passing to Hermione information about Harry.

You didn't answer my original question. If Ginny wanted Ron and Hermione to get together, why is there absolutely no evidence of her taking an active interest in the status of their 'potential' relationship? From an author's perspective, isn't this a good opportunity to show that someone (outside of the reader fandom) is actually rooting for Ron and Hermione to get together? And if Ms. Rowling intended to show Ginny shipping R/Hr in the passage you cited, why not show at least a hint of Ginny wanting to play matchmaker or fueling Ron's jealousy even further?

Forgive me for answering with a question. But where does Ginny says that she wants to be matchmaker. I don't see anywhere indications that she wouldn't like a R/Hr pair. On the contrary I see a nice friendship and I see her answer to Hermione's questionon where, where Harry and Ron in a teasing sort of way. Like a Ja! kind of answer.

But why should Ginny get in the middle of it? Why does she needs to play matchmaker? I believe that she has no business on their affairs and that for now that is what she has done. She wouldn't mind R/Hr but she certainly is not going to play matchmaker and pushed them toguether. Beside is she would be doing that, some H/Hr would be using to say that she is trying to push Ron with Hermione to stay with Harry. ;)

The age is irrelevant. My original point was that Ginny is not the only human being on the planet to have encountered Voldemort, as many readers seem determined to point out in order to support the proverbial bond that is supposed to link Harry and Ginny together.

But to me it is. The fact that JKR choosed Ginny to have a mess with Voldemort is important. Voldemort is a problem.

And I may also point out that I wasn't aware of Ms. Rowling saying that Harry and Hermione will not get together. Could you please point me to this quote?

Don't know who ask this but:

As Harry matures, does a love interest develop between him and Hermione?
Harry & Hermione... d'you really think they're suited?

Do Harry and Hermione have a date? No, they are very platonic friends, but I won't answer for anyone else, nudge nudge wink wink.

Gily Ann

Just going to butt in. How do you know if none of the other girls have ever shown kindness to him. If I'm not mistaken I remember Parvati sticking up for him in the first book.

If I remember correctly, Parvati was talking with Malfoy after Neville left. Neville was no where in sight since he was lugged off by Hooch to the hospital wing. So Parvati hadn't shown kindness TO Neville, or rather merely disgust towards Malfoy.

Of course, I'm not going to make a shipper argument for them.
Me neither.


Not that he wouldn't it's because he couldn't.

Exactly, so it's not as if Neville wanted to carry Hermione and Harry didn't; it's only a matter of convenience.

Whoever said this I disagree.

Gilly Ann did. I disagree too.

I don't think that Hermione and Neville will end up together.

I agree.

Mainly because I have another idea of who Hermione will get with.

Me too.

That and I also think that Neville might die by the books end.

That is still a big question mark.

~Polaris

PS. Thanks FairyDust for pointing out my typo error; it just proves, GillyAnn, that Neville didn't carry Hermione because he likes her, but merely because he "couldn't" fight the DE's, not because he "wouldn't" of course.

Question : If Harry can date an older girl in book5, in book6, can he still date older girl ? Does the slight age issue come into play at all -- like it does at real highschools ?

Why, do you want him to date Katie?

He doesn't, because if he would care he would have had the heart to tell her to change her tactics. He would have told her the minute he found out. That is important to Hermione instead of letting her carry on.

Ah. So, in Harry's mind, he didn't care whether Hermione's feelings were hurt or not--he just decided not to tell her that her hats weren't being picked up? No, the text says that he didn't have the heart to tell her, because (and this is an inference) it would disappoint her. In his mind, he was doing the right thing. Are you suggesting that he didn't tell her because...he just didn't care? If not, for what reason do you suggest that he didn't tell her?

Where is it that Ginny wants to play matchmaker? I don't recall Ginny saying that. The fact that Ginny refuses to tell Ron it says that she minds her own business.

But you were arguing that Ginny wanted Ron and Hermione to get together. Those of us who were disputing the argument you made pointed out that Ginny made no active effort to take advantage of the simple opportunity she had of teasing Ron about being interested in Hermione by at least giving him a hint about Hermione's date. The text seems to suggest that Ginny couldn't care less about Ron and Hermione getting together.

Neville even tells (sulks) with Ron when Hermione rejects him.
Not completely sure why you added "sulks" in there, other than that is your own personal interpretation. However, Neville doesn't act remotely different towards Hermione after the Yule Ball incident. I would imagine that if he was truly crushed there would be some change in behavior.

Ginny was just his last resort. Obviously he didn't mind that she did other things since she met Michael Corner that night.

Without taking into account the events of OotP, in which Neville actually risked having himself strangled by Crabbe in order to rescue Ginny from the Inquisitorial Squad.

I don't see anywhere indications that she wouldn't like a R/Hr pair.

Neither do I. Nor do I see any indications that she would particularly like a R/Hr pair. The point is that we cannot assume that Ginny wants R/Hr to happen only on the basis that she isn't actively against it.

But to me it is. The fact that JKR choosed Ginny to have a mess with Voldemort is important. Voldemort is a problem.

Yes, he is. However, my point was that Ginny is not the only person who can identify with Harry concerning Voldemort, which is what many people would like to believe.

Don't know who ask this but:

As Harry matures, does a love interest develop between him and Hermione?
Harry & Hermione... d'you really think they're suited?

Do Harry and Hermione have a date? No, they are very platonic friends, but I won't answer for anyone else, nudge nudge wink wink.

Thank you for citing this quote for me, but I'm afraid this isn't the one I was looking for. The first quote redirects an ambiguous question and the second one states that Harry and Hermione do not have a date in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. According to ana_banana's previous post, Ms. Rowling has stated that Harry and Hermione will not get together at all, period. Can anyone direct me to that quote?

Jane Austen uses it on Emma. If the Victor and Cho were "jealous' is evidence the fact that these two ended up toguether makes also evidence.

Victor is jealous because Hermione talks about Harry "very often". Cho is jealous from her perception of Harry and Hermione. That is EVIDENCE. When someone's ex ends up with another's ex, the two people just automatically have to get together? Preposterous.

Yet she still gets even closer with Hermione after that fight.

They were pretty close before; in fact, Hermione's friendship with Ginny might be even closer than her friendship with Ron. Afterall, when Harry and Ron were fighting in GoF, Hermione ate breakfast with Ginny when Harry wasn't there. Obviously, Hermione's friendship with Ron might not be as strong as some may think.

OoP has everyone talking about their great friendship. If something was clear on OoP was that Ron and Harry and Hermione and Ginny are two sets of great friends.

Hermione and Ginny; probably. Ron and Ginny are brother and sister. Harry and Ginny is not. Clearly, if they were such close friends, Harry wouldn't forget that she got possessed by Voldie would he. Afterall, what kind of a great friend would forget such a important thing, especially if he was involved in it.


I loved how JKR portrait their friendship.

I don't. I think that if JKR really decides to go the OBHWF route, then Ginny should have showed up more in the previous books, not just pop up in OotP. Then again, JKR might not go the OBHWF way after all. ;)

Yule ball for example. Ginny tells Hermione that they both have been rejelike Ginny was giving Hermione a joke. Ginny is there when Ron asked and Hermione tells her that she has a date. She smiles while telling Ron that Hermione isn't lying. If Ginny wouldn't really like the fact of R/Hr pairing wouldn't she have acted diferently?

Where is it that Ginny wants to play matchmaker? I don't recall Ginny saying that. The fact that Ginny refuses to tell Ron it says that she minds her own business.

Thank you GillyAnn. Thanks a lot. Clearly, Ginny minded her buisness rather than encourage Ron to pursue Hermione; as you have so eloquently implied above. :D


Nope Ron actually looked at Hermione in different light before that.

Yep, it just so happens that he realizes that Hermione is a girl when he is desperate for a date to the ball. Real convenient. :whistle:


Correction in GoF Ron still hasn't fully realized his feelings towards Hermione.

What are you talking about? I was correcting you because you stated that Ron feels that he'd be attractive to Hermione or something along those lines. I made no remarks about Ron's feelings for Hermione.


BTW that's your opinion mine if very diferent regarding what Hermione thinks of Ron.

My opinion and your opinion don't matter; the point is, what is Hermione's opinion of Ron? So far, he is described as an "insensitive wart."

Oh I think yes. Hermione even looks surprised when Neville's grandmother mentions her.

That's normal;afterall, Neville does talk about his friends to his family.

It has been very clear to me that Neville has always been interested in Hermione.Neville even tells (sulks) with Ron when Hermione rejects him.

Where is this sulking? I remember Neville said that he asked Hermione because she has been nice to him and helped him with potions; certainly, I didn't hear a heartfelt confession of Neville's undying love for Hermione. :rolleyes:

Ginny was just his last resort.

Neville was more like Ginny's last resort; since she stated that she "wouldn't be able to go anyway"

Obviously he didn't mind that she did other things since she met Michael Corner that night.

Poor Neville. :upset:

Hermione's possible relationship with...

Neville: Passive relationship where the female dominates and will always be right..


Yes Neville really sound goods for Hermione.

Oh yes, a passive, one party domination sounds so wonderful. I wonder what ever happened to harmonious relationships? Oh that's right. That's Harry and Hermione, not Neville and Hermione. :elaugh:




Harry: The ultimate relationship where both parties complement each other in their difference of personalities. Both play the dominant role and the non-dominate (recessive?) role. They're able to compromise and come up with solutions to their problems. Although both may not have the same approach to problems, generally, their views on certain things are similar

Harry and Hermione's relationship in my eyes couldn't be more wrong

Really? Then may I suggest an optician? :rolleyes:

, IMO. Ron and Hermione still have some issues but are getting close so for now.

Oh yes, they do have some issues don't they...funny, none of them ever gets resolved.

Neville is the winner

for what?

~Polaris

EDIT: Thanks Nappa :D

noddwyd : Would I be really bad if I did want that ? I'm still mostly a Harry/Hermione shipper. Just the hormonal part of me wants all these other things ^.^

No,not Katie. Too many bad memories from a very popular fic. Actually Alicia ^.^ or Angelina ^.^ I know they aren't well developed. Angelina comes across as well developed as Oliver, but that still doesn't stop people from shipping Oliver/Hermione. I'm talking more in the realms of fantasy now. Before OotP, I had argued that after the events of GoF the girl he would need to date would have to be mature like Hermione. She would have to understand what he was going through and help him in it. She probably wouldn't be able to do much, because Harry doesn't share the very close to his heart things with people other than his two best friends.

When Cho thing happened, I could see how immature Cho was. And thought it wouldn't be her that he sticks it out with. The reason I wanted an older girl was because - USUALLY - the age come with maturity.


ps: You're a guy! *blinks* I thought you were a woman ^.^ I just noticed your little blue guy ^.^ From your name I thought you gere a woman ^.^ *hides* I probably should have had kept my surprise to myself ^.^

Polaris: Wonderful posting :)

nappa32, I can't see Harry building a relationship with either Angelina or Alicia because they'd have both left school when he hits sixth year. The only other older girls we know of is Katie, Cho, and possibly Marietta. I don't know how old she is. Anyhoo, I don't see him getting with an older girl because there aren't any that are mentioned nor are there any that are developed.

And I don't think I've already done this. Mainly because I've only been on for a few minutes at a time and so on. anyhoo, :welcome: nappa32. *waves from the Heron*


EDIT: Pansy, if you're reading this, I hope you and you're family all the best.

Thank you for citing this quote for me, but I'm afraid this isn't the one I was looking for. The first quote redirects an ambiguous question and the second one states that Harry and Hermione do not have a date in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

Please do point me when did JKR said that her answer was for book 4 in that answer. When she says that it applies to book 4 then I'll aplied to book 4. In the mean time it applies to the entire series. That's what she has said she does, that's how I'll aplied it.

Yes, he is. However, my point was that Ginny is not the only person who can identify with Harry concerning Voldemort, which is what many people would like to believe.

And my point is that Ginny is for know the only person that can understand what Harry went thru.

Neither do I. Nor do I see any indications that she would particularly like a R/Hr pair. The point is that we cannot assume that Ginny wants R/Hr to happen only on the basis that she isn't actively against it.

Well clearly if JKR wanted Ginny to be uncomftable with a R/Hr she wouldn't have made them friends. The unexpected task clearly tells me that me that she doesn't mind. I'm sure you would disagree.

Without taking into account the events of OotP, in which Neville actually risked having himself strangled by Crabbe in order to rescue Ginny from the Inquisitorial Squad.

I may have missed something but where is it that we know that Neville went only for Ginny? Wasn't Ron and Luna also there?

Not completely sure why you added "sulks" in there, other than that is your own personal interpretation. However, Neville doesn't act remotely different towards Hermione after the Yule Ball incident. I would imagine that if he was truly crushed there would be some change in behavior.

No he was crushin Ginny's feet. Perhaps that's why he was crushing Ginny's feet. Maybe he was jealous, instead of kicking something he was crushing Ginny's feet. :p

But you were arguing that Ginny wanted Ron and Hermione to get together. Those of us who were disputing the argument you made pointed out that Ginny made no active effort to take advantage of the simple opportunity she had of teasing Ron about being interested in Hermione by at least giving him a hint about Hermione's date. The text seems to suggest that Ginny couldn't care less about Ron and Hermione getting together.

I'm sure she does but why does she need to act like a matchmaker? Does she needs to push them? No. BTW I can't remember who started the argument that Ginny may not like R/Hr toguether.

Ah. So, in Harry's mind, he didn't care whether Hermione's feelings were hurt or not--he just decided not to tell her that her hats weren't being picked up? No, the text says that he didn't have the heart to tell her, because (and this is an inference) it would disappoint her. In his mind, he was doing the right thing. Are you suggesting that he didn't tell her because...he just didn't care? If not, for what reason do you suggest that he didn't tell her?

He doesn't. He feels sorry and that's it! Dobby is taking the hats and he lets carrry on. If he is a true friend he would tell her. Harry knows what it means to her those hats. By not telling her he shows that he doesn't care for her cause and her efforts.

Victor is jealous because Hermione talks about Harry "very often". Cho is jealous from her perception of Harry and Hermione. That is EVIDENCE. When someone's ex ends up with another's ex, the two people just automatically have to get together? Preposterous.

Yet jane austen and JKR used it! Preposterous! Two writers using the same thecnique. Foreshadowing perhaps! :whistle: JKR following Austen Steps, perhaps?

They were pretty close before; in fact, Hermione's friendship with Ginny might be even closer than her friendship with Ron. Afterall, when Harry and Ron were fighting in GoF, Hermione ate breakfast with Ginny when Harry wasn't there. Obviously, Hermione's friendship with Ron might not be as strong as some may think.

I don't understand your point here.

Hermione and Ginny; probably. Ron and Ginny are brother and sister. Harry and Ginny is not. Clearly, if they were such close friends, Harry wouldn't forget that she got possessed by Voldie would he. Afterall, what kind of a great friend would forget such a important thing, especially if he was involved in it.

Well but it was Ginny who Harry choosed to tell her that he wanted to talk to Sirius. Funny now even H/G friendship is question.

I don't. I think that if JKR really decides to go the OBHWF route, then Ginny should have showed up more in the previous books, not just pop up in OotP. Then again, JKR might not go the OBHWF way after all.

Maybe she will! Maybe that's why she had her 'pop out' in this book.

What are you talking about? I was correcting you because you stated that Ron feels that he'd be attractive to Hermione or something along those lines. I made no remarks about Ron's feelings for Hermione.

I'm talking about Ron still not realizing fully what Hermione means to him. Girl, monster or troll.

My opinion and your opinion don't matter; the point is, what is Hermione's opinion of Ron? So far, he is described as an "insensitive wart."

But clearly to me 'Insensitive wart' says a few things if you added up to others. It's clear to me that by the books Hermione likes Ron and what her opinion of him is.

Where is this sulking? I remember Neville said that he asked Hermione because she has been nice to him and helped him with potions; certainly, I didn't hear a heartfelt confession of Neville's undying love for Hermione.

Why does he needs to tell that to Ron?

Neville was more like Ginny's last resort; since she stated that she "wouldn't be able to go anyway"

Yes that's right! and she fully accepts. So they are both going with each other because they are friends and not to go alone.

Oh yes, a passive, one party domination sounds so wonderful. I wonder what ever happened to harmonious relationships? Oh that's right. That's Harry and Hermione, not Neville and Hermione.

Well for me Harry and Hermione is the ugly point in which some friends should never reach. Because clearly romantically they are not interested in each other and they are clearly intended for other people.

Gily Ann

First and foremost, prayers, hope and best wishes to Pansy. We're all rooting for you and your family. Reguardless of what ship we sail on.

Some nice posts there Earendil, Turambar, evaluna, and nappa32.

Jane Austen uses it on Emma. If the Victor and Cho were "jealous' is evidence the fact that these two ended up toguether makes also evidence.

I suppose so. If one wants to totally ignore the fact that Krum is jealous of Harry while Michael is not jealous of Harry (interesting thought there huh) and that Cho is jealous of Hermione and not Ginny. I guess its just not clear to me.

Cheers!

Hmm, if you mean the fic I think you do, then those weren't [i]all[/] bad memories. No, that wouldn't be a bad thing, either. Someone else also suggested Harry/Tonks, and I wasn't opposed to that either. She's definitely a bit older than him. But her, along with Angelina and Alicia are not going to be at school with him, so unless he finally gets expelled or something else happens where he can't go to hogwarts anymore....

At the risk of sounding like a broken record : Did JKR refuse to rule out even Draco/Hermione in the interview that is the latest ? Are we to now think that D/Hr and R/Hr are the only two serious options by JKR ? Then I ask you, where is the buildup for D/Hr if it's the other contender.

You know nodd, I would not mind a bit if he did date Katie Bell, Parvati Patil, Susan Bones, Lavender Brown or even Fleur Delacour. It would be a surprise and it would definitely make things interesting at least in the next book. If Harry/Hermione are too perfect then so is the whole one big happy "Weasley" family. As if I'm to believe that Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione get together like an old classic fairytale and live happily ever after without incident. I must of missed the part in the Chamber of Secrets where Tom Riddle had been a cupid instead of an evil, dark wizard. Harry had argued with a girl he has wanted for over two years (and maybe vice versa) because she was jealous of a girl Harry has not wanted for over four years. How the hell did that happen? It is bad enough a famous, international Quidditch player girl magnet named Viktor Krum is bugging Harry because he is actually worried about Harry's relationship with Hermione being stronger than his own but now he has got his girlfriend on Valentine's Day being jealous of the same thing. Now Ron it seems wants Harry and Ginny to get together. Harry and Ginny are going to love that and on top of everything else....Harry more than likely has not seen the last of Cho. He may not be interested in her but they never officially broke up and if anybody did not notice, she was not walking with Michael Corner but blushing at Harry before hurrying off. God forbid Hermione does like Harry more than a friend (which I think she does by the way) and it comes out somehow because Ron will explode on Harry asking him what is going on between you and Hermione which will be the third time in as many years Harry has been bothered with this accusation. But enough with my ramble. I would like to see Harry go out with someone outside the Weasleys or Hermione in Book 6. It may shed the light on a few things I have been wondering about......

Gilly Ann, the reason that the Ex getting together leading to Harry being in love with Ginny is being called ridiculous is because you are only using part of the Jane Austens plot. There is no jealous between Harry and Michel. You can't simply use half the situation and say it follows the other plot. Harry could care less about Ginny and Dean and Michel and Neville. Harry was NEVER jealous of any attention that Ginny was getting from any other guys. And it's a pretty long list. Three so far.

Harry was never jealous of any attention given to Hermione either, nappa32. There's been no indication in canon where Harry gets remotely jealous of Krum or anyone else who's shown interest in Hermione. Ron, on the other hand, does get jealous. Count GoF out if you will. But in OotP, there was definitely some jealousy coming from him.

hi,this is my first post here on this thread, and i just wanted to say that everybody has wonderful posts, and i wanted to comment on the jealousy thing. i don't think harry wasn't jealous of krum because he doesn't like hermione, i think he wasn't jealous of krum because he didn't have to be. Hermione kept catching his eye, grinning at him, calling over to him, pausing to talk, was disguted that ron thought she was more loyal to krum then harry, etc.-doesn't seem like he needs to be jealous when really, if you ask me, she paid him an awful lot of attention. and he didn't get jealous about it in ootp because if hermione says she only thinks of krum as a penpal then he believes her, because he trusts her. But, also keep in mind he was jealous of hermione and ron at the beginning of the summer. i don't have my book on hand, so i'm just recalling from memory things like "he could barely stand to think of ron and hermione having fun without him" and "you two have been holed up here together!" and "so what have you been doing if you aren't allowed in the meetings?" and even with that in mind, i don't think jealousy is a good thing-it implies that you don't trust your partner and trust is neseccary in a good relationship.

Thanks Hawk. Nice post Sone though Cho's blushing could be related to the fact that it's the first time she's run into Harry since starting a relationship with someone else.

True, but I am positive he has not seen the last of her. Possibly he will also being seeing Michael Corner and not in the friendliest of ways

Yet jane austen and JKR used it! Preposterous!

Jane Austen used it, but need I to remind you that JKR is definitely NOT Jane Austen.

Two writers using the same thecnique.

Correction: ONE writer using the technique; the other's ideas are still fluctuating in the dark.


Foreshadowing perhaps! JKR following Austen Steps, perhaps?

Perhaps not.

I don't understand your point here

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the one who made the remark several posts ago that Ron is closer to Hermione than Harry is? I'm simply pointing out that Hermione is not as close to Ron as you may think. In fact, she chose to eat with Ginny, who was definitely, at that time, not one of her best friends; but Hermione chose to be with Ginny rather than with Ron; wasn't Ron her best friend? Even if Ron was having a falling out with Harry, how does that interfere with Hermione's actions? Why didn't Hermione eat breakfast with Ron?

Well but it was Ginny who Harry choosed to tell her that he wanted to talk to Sirius.

It was Ginny who approached Harry, he didn't voluntarily seek her out; if fact, it is Hermione, who Harry goes to when he has a problem, not Ginny.

Funny now even H/G friendship is question.

It has never been in question because their friendship is not deep enough to be considered.

Maybe she will! Maybe that's why she had her 'pop out' in this book

Please. Don't insult JKR's writing skills; if she really did want to end in OBHWF, she can do better than that.

I'm talking about Ron still not realizing fully what Hermione means to him. Girl, monster or troll

Errr....monster? Troll? Erm...I really don't see your point. Are you suggesting Ron thinks Hermione looks like a Troll? Because that is certainly different from what Harry thinks of Hermione.

But clearly to me 'Insensitive wart' says a few things if you added up to others.

Yeah, when you add those wonderful adverbs like "nastily and acidly" you really get a superb combination of word choice.

It's clear to me that by the books Hermione likes Ron and what her opinion of him is.

And It is also very clear to me that Hermione *doesn't* like Ron presently, and her opinion of him is not as high as you may think.

Why does he needs to tell that to Ron?

If JKR really wanted to show that Neville had a crush on Hermione, then she would have had Neville act hurt and disappointed when Hermione rejected him, not turn around and ask Ginny. It would also be fairly easy if this message is conveyed through Ron's conversation with Neville, but then again, JKR didn't; so clearly, Neville didn't have a crush on Hermione.

Well for me Harry and Hermione is the ugly point in which some friends should never reach. Because clearly romantically they are not interested in each other and they are clearly intended for other people.


To me, Harry and Hermione have a certain closeness that people strive to reach. They have a mental bond that others don't share. They often know what the other is thinking, and they understand each other and cares for each other deeply. Although their relationship is not romantic presently, their friendship could easily blossom into something more.

~Polaris

That's what you call tireless rebuttle Polaris15. :tu:
Sone: I wonder what plot purpose Cho serves from now on though. It also depends on whether the DA continues and whether she'll be part of it because Harry managed not to have much contact with Cho in GOF and POA. She'll also be in her final year, so personally I think she'll be eased out.

Hey all, I'm new here but I've been lurking in the Love Thread for quite a while now, and I must say, some of the literary analyisises posted here are among the best I've ever read :) Especially the ones by the H/Hr shippers.
I'm an H/Hrer myself and I'd like to ask something from those aboard the Harmony.
JKR once said in an interview that Hermione will lighten up in future books. I can't remember the exact quote, but I'm sure she said something like "Hermione will lighten up, I promise you".
Now what I want to know is that, was she reffering to OotP or Book 6? If I remember right, this interview was held after the release of book 4, so my first thought was that Hermione will devolop a great deal in Book 5. And she did! But do you think her sense of humour will devolop more in the future, so that Harry will enjoy her company a lot more than he already does? There by making them more closer as friends.
By the way, I don't think that Harry needs a joker for a partner, he already has a very deep friendship with Hermione that is very likely to devolop into something else, but I've noticed that a lot of R/Hrers claim that Harry finds Hermione boring, so is that the reason Hermione needs to (or rather will) lighten up?

GilyAnn: The runes are in chapter: OWLs at page:631 UK-edition.

I think to the runes is very much said now. I would like to focus on Harrys mind. This voice in his head which sound oddly like Hermione. I think this has some clues which is very important for the future. Harrys mind speaks already in GoF in that voice but I suspect that this started already in COS as Harry asked himself if he is the heir. There is a scene where he looks into the mirror. I think so this was like that. This leads me to my point that Hermione and Harry have a special bound to each other and this bound had started in PS/SS as she did as the first person speak like that to him.
In GoF is it much more visibile that this will be very important because, thats why I did mention Crouch jr. in my earlier post, Harry hears this voice as Crouch jr. use the imperious curse at him.
This is one of the darkest and powerfuls curses in the magical world. This does affect the deepest mind. Thats probably the reason why Harry didn't get in GoF this voice sounds like Hermione. I do suspect this very much because we learn in OotP there exist Legilimency and the dark lord is highly skilled in this. I wonder if Hermione is unaware even that highly skilled and is really in Harrys mind. This say Harry don't just immagine her voice she realy there. For once in GoF Hermione sit in the same room as Crouch jr. use the curse. Its even interesting that the voice in Harrys mind at first say it not in the first person its general. As if Hermione did sit there and think this.

Another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid thing to do, really, said the voice.

If you remember in GoF dos Hermione said aloud a lot "Really" so that this voice here in Harrys mind don't sound like Harry himself Its sound awul like Hermione.
I think we can agree that the imperious curse is something bad, really bad. And Harry can fight this curse because of this voice in his mind. In OotP Harry hears this voice again but this time he know which voice this is but It don't bother him not in the slightest. Thats strange because I for once did wonder. Again this voice is there so It does end Harrys dreams about DoM. But if Voldemort really want to controll Harrys mind there can't help a untrained voice in Harrys mind.

And Hermione isn't even aware of it like Harry don't wonder about this that he hears her. I think this is indeed very important because first with this voice in Harrys mind he can fight the imperious curse and fight a lot better against his connection with Voldemort. This leads me to my theory that Hermione/light and Voldemort/dark. I think this proofs my theory isn't that wrong. Its rather that in canon is a path which leads into this.

Now to the question why its Hermione and not somebody else? Its because she has acces to his heart and Harry don't mind. He don't fight against it thats the reason why its her. By Ginny for example, she don't has this acces and in all books from 1 till 4 did Harry fight against her crush at him. By Cho is It nearly the same he was just interes in her but not as if Cho had acces to his heart. Because there was already someone else only Harry don't ask question not even its about himself.

Like he never ask why this voice sounds like Hermione. I mean, really this isn't normal, or? I think a husband might hear his mind speak like his wife but not a platonic friend hears the voice of his female friend. At least at this point I did wonder if this friend is really that platonic?!

Pansy I'm glad to hear from and I really, really hope the best that your child is under the 50%. My prayers are with you

I think Hermione stayed the same in OoTP. I like the fact that she takes initiatives. The thing with Rita Skeeter was really unexpected.
Between harry and Ron, I don't know who Hermione is the closer too. When she has problems I don't know who she talks to ... but she doesn't seem to have problems for now.

Hi everybody...

Great posts!

And :welcome: to prancer (I totally agree with you about Harry's lack of jealousy of Krum) and madabouthermione.

By the way, I don't think that Harry needs a joker for a partner, he already has a very deep friendship with Hermione that is very likely to devolop into something else, but I've noticed that a lot of R/Hrers claim that Harry finds Hermione boring, so is that the reason Hermione needs to (or rather will) lighten up?
I honestly don't believe that Harry finds Hermione boring. He was just fourteen in GoF, it's quite obvious that at this age he could relate more to Ron... And I'm not talking just about canon here, in real life, in the beginning of adolescence, boys and girls tend to spend less time together because generally girls mature faster, so their interest and opinions differ. (Consequently, boys and girls have less fun together at this period of life). Maybe this could explain why Hermione became interested in Krum... I don't have the books here to quote, but as far as I remember, I recall that she wasn't really impressed by him when she saw him in the Quidditch Cup. So later, when he approached her at Hogwarts, she might have found that it would be great to have an older friend...

Anyway, the one thing that R/H shippers tend to forget when they use this argument is that if this statement is true, Ron would also think Hermione is boring. Could you imagine what would have happened if Hermione decided to side with Ron during their fight in GoF? Not only Ron would have to hang out at the library more, but with their increased contact, they would bicker even more!... (Now, that would be fun :evil: )

About your other question, I can see Hermione lightening up in a sense that she wouldn't be that meticulous about school issues anymore (specially when it comes to nagging Harry and Ron). She will still be the top student, but with the war, she may review her priorities and use her energy to more important stuff.

Digressing a bit... Let me ask something:

Have it already been discussed here the possibility about a Neville/Ginny ship in canon? I don't know, I've been thinking about it and I believe it's highly possible. Would you like to discuss it further?

N/G -- I would like to hear this. Ginny was always a nice enough girl. Neville is cool 8) now with all that we know about him. Anyone else think they would make a nice couple.

Hmm... I'm sounding like a person with no proof asking for show of hands in people who believe in me ^.^ Will go read the book, and perhaps get that sleep that is owed to me ^.^

madabouthermione and Prancer Welcome :D -- I'm sure as it becomes dawn whereever the more established members are tonight, they will post a little welcome message :)

Pansy: I don't know you personally, but I wish you and your family all the luck and well wishes.

Hi everybody...

Great posts!

And :welcome: to prancer (I totally agree with you about Harry's lack of jealousy of Krum) and madabouthermione.


I honestly don't believe that Harry finds Hermione boring. He was just fourteen in GoF, it's quite obvious that at this age he could relate more to Ron... And I'm not talking just about canon here, in real life, in the beginning of adolescence, boys and girls tend to spend less time together because generally girls mature faster, so their interest and opinions differ. (Consequently, boys and girls have less fun together at this period of life). Maybe this could explain why Hermione became interested in Krum... I don't have the books here to quote, but as far as I remember, I recall that she wasn't really impressed by him when she saw him in the Quidditch Cup. So later, when he approached her at Hogwarts, she might have found that it would be great to have an older friend...

Thanks for the welcome Fabiana :) You're right about Hermione maturing earlier than the boys. That explains why Harry said "there was more hanging around the library when Hermione was your best friend." And it doesn't necessarily mean he finds her boring. Actually there have been moments where they have shared a laugh.

EDIT: Thanks Nappa :)
Pansy, I'm new around here, but I wish your daughter a succesful and immediate recovery :)

N/G -- I would like to hear this. Ginny was always a nice enough girl. Neville is cool 8) now with all that we know about him. Anyone else think they would make a nice couple.

Hmm... I'm sounding like a person with no proof asking for show of hands in people who believe in me ^.^ Will go read the book, and perhaps get that sleep that is owed to me ^.^


Hmm well when Neville refers to himself as a no one (or was it a nobody. . OOTP isn't handy at the moment) Ginny shows support for him by saying "no you're not." When the inquisatorial squad jumps Ginny, Luna and Ron, Neville throws himself into the fray to protect Ginny (even though he wasn't in on the plan). In the DOM its Neville who starts throwing curses at the DE who stunned Ginny (despite having a broken nose and not being able to enunciate them properly).

Hi all! This is my first post here. I am a definite R/H shipper. I found it highly amusing when Hermione was compared to Mrs. Weasley a couple of times in OoTP. They do already bicker like an old married couple. As far as H/He goes, I just fail to see the chemistry. At this point, there is really no one I like for Harry. I am sooooo glad that Cho didn't work out. She was way too needy. As far as Ginny goes, well, the Weasley's are like Harry's family and she seams more sisterly to me. Luna, well she's a bit daft, but I suppose I like her better than most. At this point anyway...

Now I'm going to say something a bit twisted that the majority of you will quickly dismiss as insane. I've always fancied the idea that the tension between Draco and Hermione might turn to romantic sparks. That in spite of himself, Draco would find himself drawn to her. Can you imagine all the conflict that would cause? He'd start to see the light and together they would help bring the four houses together to make a unified stand against Voldemort in the event that he and his death eater try to take over Hogwarts. (I know this wont happen, but I like to believe in impossible relationships.) ;)

Well clearly if JKR wanted Ginny to be uncomftable with a R/Hr she wouldn't have made them friends. The unexpected task clearly tells me that me that she doesn't mind. I'm sure you would disagree.

If she doesn't disagree, I will. Not being uncomfortable with two people hooking up is a long way from approving or even actively pushing two people together. I don't see any canon evidence that Ginny is attempting to get Ron and Hermione together.

It's clear to me that by the books Hermione likes Ron and what her opinion of him is.

Funny how two people can read the same book and come to wildly different conclusions. Before OotP came out, I actually thought R/Hr might have a shot, and even that Hermione might vaguely be interested in Ron. After OotP, however, I radically changed my mind. Hermione's feelings are still ambiguous, just as they've always been in GoF, but now they're ambiguous on the side of disinterest. Her reaction to Ron's Christmas gift, the way she didn't even want to stay and celebrate his Quidditch victory... No, I'm still a long way from being convinced that she likes him back.

Yes that's right! and she fully accepts. So they are both going with each other because they are friends and not to go alone.

I agree with this. Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with Ginny going to the Ball with Neville. He's a nice guy; she really wants to go, it's a win-win situation, IMO. No, she didn't like him trampling all over her feet, but give the guy a break -- he's clumsy by nature and probably nervous as hell.

Well for me Harry and Hermione is the ugly point in which some friends should never reach.

What, a romantic relationship based on harmony, equality and love? Could you hang on while I break up with my boyfriend?

Because clearly romantically they are not interested in each other and they are clearly intended for other people.

You keep saying "clearly" while it's not. Hey, clearly Harry doesn't like Ginny that way either, and canon now also clearly says Ginny's given up on Harry. And prove to me they're "intended" for other people. None of us here is JKR (*looks around suspiciously*) and the fact remains that we simply don't know yet where JKR is going with the story, or even that she won't change her mind midway through. We don't know *anything* about JKR's intentions.

(Quick intro: *waves* Hullo. Am new, but I've seen some of you over on FA and Portkey. Name's Dominique, I ship H/Hr, and if my sentences look awkward sometimes, it's because English is my second language. :D)

Well, I actually developed a great (and long) theory to support my belief on a Ginny/Neville ship, but I'm at work, my boss is here - he's angry today, so I'll guess I'll just be able to post it later :sigh:

It's basically based on JKR's authorial intent, not canon.

But before that, I'd like to ask a favor from our friends from H.M.S. Chocolate:

Could you please tell me where the quote below comes from? I mean, in which context JKR said it... Did she say this after answering a question (if so, what question) or did she just state it? (in which context?)

(I'm not trying to take the credit of it, I'd just like to understand it better - I'll be really thankful if you help me out)

"I tend to think that if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books, he's not going to be too disappointed if, at some point, his hero holds hands with a little girl."
Thanks again,

Welcome newcomers to you all. Now this:


Now I'm going to say something a bit twisted that the majority of you will quickly dismiss as insane. I've always fancied the idea that the tension between Draco and Hermione might turn to romantic sparks.
There's no tension. It's a real mutual dislike, very distinct from tension in the way it is used to describe the R/Hr relationship.

On the recent discussion concerning redeemable!Draco, I really don't see this happening. JK has alerted us to the fact that Draco is nothing more than a 'nasty piece of work', and I would be tempted to place trust in that remark of hers (for those seasoned quote-sceptics). I do think that she was genuinely alarmed at the girly fan base (no doubt considerably influenced by the Felton factor) that Draco seems to have been attracting. I see Draco ending up as a rather sad and pathetic figure full of resentment at how things turned out, but not contrite and in search of redemption.

GilyAnn,

Please do point me when did JKR said that her answer was for book 4 in that answer. When she says that it applies to book 4 then I'll aplied to book 4. In the mean time it applies to the entire series. That's what she has said she does, that's how I'll aplied it.

I would be happy to bring out the well-worn time-qualifier debate regarding the quote you cited in order to support my opinion that the statement was intended for GoF. Or, if you like, I can concede that the quote referred to the entire series. The question was, "Do Harry and Hermione have a date?" The answer was "no, they are very platonic friends". It is not beyond my realm of imagination that Harry and Hermione can develop feelings for one another without actually having a "date". The question was not, "Do Harry and Hermione fall in love?", as we can see from the quote cited in your previous post.

However, my original question still stands. Can anyone direct me to the quote in which JKR states that the H/Hr ship will never happen, as suggested in ana_banana's post on page 35?

And my point is that Ginny is for know the only person that can understand what Harry went thru.

And my point is that the statement that Ginny is the only person that can understand Harry, because of the fact that they both shared encountered with Voldemort, is incorrect. Please note that my original point was not directed to you specifically. I was referring to a general consensus among H/G shippers I've discussed this with which I happen to disagree with. However, since you claim that Ginny is 'for now' the only person that can understand what Harry went through, aren't you implying that she is indeed not as unique as the H/G ship generally likes to claim? Because you say 'for now', I can infer that you agree that more than one person has experienced similar encounters with Voldemort. How is Ginny still the special one?

I may have missed something but where is it that we know that Neville went only for Ginny? Wasn't Ron and Luna also there?

"And this one--" he gestured at Neville "--was trying to stop us from taking her--" he pointed at Ginny, who was trying to kick the shins of her Slytherin captor.
--OotP, "Out of the Fire"

I'm sure she does but why does she need to act like a matchmaker? Does she needs to push them? No. BTW I can't remember who started the argument that Ginny may not like R/Hr toguether.

I don't believe anyone was arguing that Ginny may not like R/Hr. I disagreed with your statement that Ginny actively wanted them to get together, because it was unsupported by canon. Indifference does not imply active support.

He doesn't. He feels sorry and that's it! Dobby is taking the hats and he lets carrry on. If he is a true friend he would tell her. Harry knows what it means to her those hats. By not telling her he shows that he doesn't care for her cause and her efforts.

Yet the fact that Ron actually actively SABOTAGED her efforts to hide the elf hats and neglected to own up to this indicates that Ron cares about her and her cause?

Well for me Harry and Hermione is the ugly point in which some friends should never reach. Because clearly romantically they are not interested in each other and they are clearly intended for other people.

What do you mean by the "ugly point"? I'm not sure what you're implying here. Do you think that Harry and Hermione's friendship is really so terrible?

First of all,the quote DOES exist. Gilly Ann posted it, JK says Harry and Hermione won't date and are just friends, I don't see what other proof you want....And also, yes they dont need a date to fall in love, but the PLATONIC FRIENDS is what you should read more clearly......
I never said, and I won't, right now at least...that Harry is crazy for Ginny......because it's not true.......I said there are many things that point to a future relationship between them.
Also, yes, this space is to speculate and make theories, but not to excuse every single time Harry pays attention to Ginny. If they DO become an item, whats going to be your excuse then??

I never said, and I won't, right now at least...that Harry is crazy for Ginny......because it's not true.......I said there are many things that point to a future relationship between them.
Hello ana_banana, so tell me what are these things that point to a future relationship between Harry and Ginny, i'm not denying that they will never have one i'm just curious as to what these 'many things' that make you sure they are for each other, are.
Iv seen H/Hr come up with evedence, iv even seen R/Hr :grumble: come up with believable evedence, but wheres the Harry and Ginny stuff, except that she has a crush on him what else is there.

Hi everyone. De-lurking to make a comment on jealousy. And to :welcome: the new folks!

Hi Prancer:
and even with that in mind, i don't think jealousy is a good thing-it implies that you don't trust your partner and trust is neseccary in a good relationship.


This is basically what I want to comment on. I agree, in part – trust is necessary for a good relationship. Absolutely and unequivocally. However, feelings of jealousy are normal feelings. To feel a twinge when your boyfriend is in deep conversation with a pretty girl or when your girlfriend is laughing and talking with some other boy is very very normal. That is basic human insecurity, and I have never in my entire life met anyone in a serious relationship who can honestly tell me that they haven't felt jealous in a situation like the hypothetical ones above. I think it is something that people grow out of, certainly, and, after you've been together a while feelings like that become very rare indeed. However, I know plenty of people in loving, trusting relationships who have felt the heat of the green-eyed monster.

Don't get me wrong – I don't believe jealousy is a "good thing." I simply think it is a very normal behavior, especially among kids around Harry, Ron, and Hermione's ages. Harry and Ron both will eventually grow out of their jealousies as they become more secure in themselves as people. If Ron does indeed like Hermione as more than a friend (which most of us in here agree on), his jealousy is a normal feeling. He hasn't done anything crazy, like sneaking off to destroy Viktor's broomstick or anything, so I'd have to say that his feelings are very typical and not at all unhealthy or dangerous or malicious. Same for Harry. While the thought crosses his mind to do something spiteful to Ron and Hermione (to keep them from listening to what Sirius wants to tell him about the Order), he decides against it, which indicates (to me at least) that his feelings of jealousy are very typical and not over the top, destructive, or hateful.

I think most of us can admit to being jealous at one time or another (if not, I'll be extremely surprised). It has more to do with individual insecurity than it does with not trusting another person. However, when jealousy and jealous feelings become a person's focus, and it begins to consume them, then you get all of the destructive behaviors and mistrust and all that rot. Right now, these kids are 15. Their feelings of jealousy are absolutely normal. In fact, if Ron does like Hermione, it would be very uncharacteristic for him to not be jealous, in my opinion.

*lurks*

Daveydee
On the recent discussion concerning redeemable!Draco, I really don't see this happening. JK has alerted us to the fact that Draco is nothing more than a 'nasty piece of work', and I would be tempted to place trust in that remark of hers (for those seasoned quote-sceptics). I do think that she was genuinely alarmed at the girly fan base (no doubt considerably influenced by the Felton factor) that Draco seems to have been attracting. I see Draco ending up as a rather sad and pathetic figure full of resentment at how things turned out, but not contrite and in search of redemption.

Daveydee: Agree with you on the high probability of the D/[G or Hr] no-go. Again, like you, I just don't get it, personally, 1) the whole notion that redemption can occur through wholly external means [meaning IMO Draco must want to change and thus far dating someone doesn't seem like adequate motivation for bucking the social hierarchy he sits atop] or 2) the whole romanticised villain bit [or, 'all he really needs is the right woman'...I mean, gads, that's nauseating]. Everyone's potentially redeemable, and yes Draco is a product of his unfortunate upbringing [father is cold, abusive, and cannot be pleased], but I'm not all sure Draco is redeemable within the span of the series.

IMO If Draco is ever to turn over a new leaf, he'll have to work for it and have some meaningful reason for doing so. He'll have to want it and make the effort. And IMO that is the only way Draco can add thematic interest. My interest in Draco as a 'romantic' figure is less than zero. Granted, maybe someone unexpected will date Draco and force a life/death situation [~romeo/juliet] that impacts Harry and co. -- alright, that's an acceptable reason for mention IMO. However, if there are more than a few sentences re: Draco's love life, unless it relates to some mortal or other major crisis of character that has a direct connection to the plot, IMO it will be a huge off-theme distraction.


flying phoenix
And Hermione isn't even aware of it like Harry don't wonder about this that he hears her. I think this is indeed very important because first with this voice in Harrys mind he can fight the imperious curse and fight a lot better against his connection with Voldemort. This leads me to my theory that Hermione/light and Voldemort/dark. I think this proofs my theory isn't that wrong. Its rather that in canon is a path which leads into this.

Now to the question why its Hermione and not somebody else? Its because she has acces to his heart and Harry don't mind. He don't fight against it thats the reason why its her.


Nice. Yeah, [of course] I really think there is a lot there, symbolically, and Hermione definitely brings light to Harry's darkness. On initial read of OoP, I saw her as Harry's lifeline when he was deprived of the support of his godfather [Sirius], his mentor [Dumbledore], and the official support of the wizarding community. And I really like the bit about Hermione and legilimency... Now, as I said before on a prior thread, if Harry revises this as well over holiday, then we could really have some serious breakthrough or progress for ship! [Err....any ship, in fact, though everyone has their favourites...and least favourites]. As it's a bit of an unfair advantage if it's just Harry...though you realise, of course, it could be that's he's tapping her thoughts instinctively, as her thoughts are probably frequently on him, out of concern...She's a quick study, though; I'm sure she'd be up for it, you know, for Harry's sake ;)


Oh and sone,, v. interesting post! I'm all for mixing it up a bit myself [and no OBHWF :td:], as, like you, I think it would bring quite a few issues to the fore...finally! For the same reason I rather like the legilimency idea. As long as it stays on plot and theme and advances the characters' maturity and self-discovery [i.e. helps them realise their true feelings for whomever], it's all good. And whilst I don't really see Cho and Harry again [I could be way off, granted], I do think we haven't necessarily seen the last of Cho. I see her making some poor choices in future, with those choices impacting Harry and co., sort of along the same lines as with her 'friend' Marietta. If she's not connected somehow to the G v. E battle, then yeah, I would agree with Turambar that Cho would have little relevance to the plot. Re: Harry, hmm...it's probably alright if certain persons graduate as long as they can be near, i.e., teach, coach quidditch, live in Hogsmeade and teach Harry to apparate...or some such. That pretty much leaves the field wide open...at least if there is to be a bit of a shake-up before the final pairs click.

And this is part of why I like the idea of an initial shake-up:


prancer
i don't think harry wasn't jealous of krum because he doesn't like hermione, i think he wasn't jealous of krum because he didn't have to be. Hermione kept catching his eye, grinning at him, calling over to him, pausing to talk, was disguted that ron thought she was more loyal to krum then harry, etc.-doesn't seem like he needs to be jealous when really, if you ask me, she paid him an awful lot of attention. and he didn't get jealous about it in ootp because if hermione says she only thinks of krum as a penpal then he believes her, because he trusts her. But, also keep in mind he was jealous of hermione and ron at the beginning of the summer. i don't have my book on hand, so i'm just recalling from memory things like "he could barely stand to think of ron and hermione having fun without him" and "you two have been holed up here together!" and "so what have you been doing if you aren't allowed in the meetings?"

I agree, prancer, and thus far Hermione's attentiveness only reinforced what I perceive to be Harry's suppressed emotion, prolonging his denial or, at the least, his unexamined state. I also agree that Harry arguably showed signs of jealousy regarding Hermione [assuming that this was at least a factor]. All the more reason to bring back Krum and see just exactly where things stand between Hermione and Krum, and especially to observe what Krum does. Hermione is now 16, correct? I think Krum will step up, and Harry will have 1) to do a bit of examining and 2) real competition [not Ron]. So here's my wish list:
1) mix it up -- Harry dates someone unexpected... 2) legilimency... 3) and Krum returns! [see 1)]

BTW [b]nappa32, welcome & I enjoyed your SPEW posts. I agree that the topic is important but too that whomever Hermione chooses must understand that her nature inclines toward working for social justice and that they must accept this and offer support and guidance. [On another note, not certain but think 'noddwyd' means either needle or is a place name for a mountain or similar, is a noun, but def. not a feminine 'name' ;) LOL ...will defer to noddwyd or Hawk's grandfather, natch...].

Cheers!

ana_banana,

First of all,the quote DOES exist. Gilly Ann posted it, JK says Harry and Hermione won't date and are just friends

Allow me to clarify my question. You said (emphasis mine):

But claiming something, like it is extremely official that Harry and Hermione will end up together, because you said so, ignoring the fact that JK has said they won't, that there are no clues on the books for it.....thats just not viable.

I asked you to point me toward a quote stating, in Ms. Rowling's words, that Harry and Hermione will not end up together. GilyAnn cited a quote stating that Harry and Hermione do not have a date because they are platonic friends. One does not imply the other.

I don't see what other proof you want....

I don't 'want' any proof. The simple fact is that there is no canonical proof as of the five books that have been published stating that Harry and Hermione will never get together.

And also, yes they dont need a date to fall in love, but the PLATONIC FRIENDS is what you should read more clearly......

The degree of my clarity of reading is not going to change the fact that Ms. Rowling stated that Harry and Hermione are platonic friends, as opposed to will always be platonic friends as long as the world shall turn. The debate over this quote has been beaten like a dead horse; however, I have no problem in discussing it one more time to clarify the validity of the statement.

Also, yes, this space is to speculate and make theories, but not to excuse every single time Harry pays attention to Ginny.

To whom are you addressing this? I'm not certain who has been 'excusing' every single time Harry pays attention to Ginny. I have known non-H/G shippers to dispute the idea that the extremely few interactions between Harry and Ginny have been a clear assertion of his undying love for her.

If they DO become an item, whats going to be your excuse then??

Again, I have to ask: to whom are you addressing this? I'd like to know before I offer you my answer.

I'm addresing it generally, don't take it personally. But I think to over analyze a quote from JK that is very clear is unnecessary. When JK is asked of something important and she doesn't want to answer she just says something like "we'll see" or "i can't answer that" or stuff like that. JK said they are platonic friends, and that should be enough to see JK has no plan of making them a couple.
I also ask, why then is Ron having a crush on Hermione?? Or Ginny having a crush on Harry?? Why, because if its not going to happen, why write it??
Harry and Hermione would create a love triangle we all know can't happen in the Harry Potter world. If Harry does have a love interest in the future, he's not going to be thinking about something like this triangle...He's going to be focusing on Voldemort.
And the clues for H/G have been posted many times, in this thread as well. You guys didn't show me any clues at all, you said they were already posted but >> I << think they are only proving Harry and Hermione are friends.
Also: "I have known non-H/G shippers to dispute the idea that the extremely few interactions between Harry and Ginny have been a clear assertion of his undying love for her."
I don't understand what you mean....please explain...If you mean, once again, that we the H/G shippers think Harry is madly in love with her, I, once again, say he's not...yet. So I don't see the point on discussing the point that Harry is not maddly in love with anyone right now.

Fabiana


Associated Press

27 March 2000

Brace yourself, readers: Harry Potter will discover girls


LONDON (AP) - Author J.K. Rowling said Monday that her beloved character Harry Potter will start to discover the magic charms of girls as his literary adventures continue.


"Last time you met him, he was 13," Rowling said at a news conference at the British Library.

"He's 14 now and he's started to realize girls are quite interesting," she said. "I tend to think that if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books, he's not going to be too disappointed if, at some point, his hero holds hands with a little girl."

This quote was March, 2000: I think it's significant as a hint for H/G because of the "little girl" description. JKR has never failed to either imply by text or actions that Ginny is the "little girl". As recently as book 5 at the MoM, Bellatrix says, "take the smallest one, let's let him watch while we torture the little girl". Ginny is described as little during each book and the manner in which Molly overprotects her only enhances this impression of her. Even in CoS movie, we have (at Flourish and Blotts), "stand aside, little girl, this is for the Daily Prophet". I feel that JKR is trying to imply "if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books", i.e. a careful reader, that we won't be surprised to see our hero (Harry) holding hands with a little girl (Ginny) in a romantic situation.

:welcome: Great posts, Gily ann and Ana Banana!

Welcome newcomers to you all. Now this:


There's no tension. It's a real mutual dislike, very distinct from tension in the way it is used to describe the R/Hr relationship.

Many different things cause tension. Hatred causes tension. No, it's not the same as what's between R/H, but it's still tension.

On the recent discussion concerning redeemable!Draco, I really don't see this happening. JK has alerted us to the fact that Draco is nothing more than a 'nasty piece of work', and I would be tempted to place trust in that remark of hers (for those seasoned quote-sceptics). I do think that she was genuinely alarmed at the girly fan base (no doubt considerably influenced by the Felton factor) that Draco seems to have been attracting. I see Draco ending up as a rather sad and pathetic figure full of resentment at how things turned out, but not contrite and in search of redemption.


I don't believe Draco will ever do a turn around either. I just like speculating on the seemingly unimaginable because just when I think I have something figured out, Rowling completely suprises me.

Its all about symbolism. What we talk about. Mainly about the runes which Hermione did missread.
I for once do wonder "Why?" Hermione even could missread this runes thats curious for me. Because If you go at on of the links from page34 in my post than you see that one rune "the defence" one looks like Harrys scar. The other one looks like a "M".
Now imagine you learn this stuff you know Harry Potter and his story. You see this rune and learns in classes Its mean "defence". This makes a picture for you. You can learn this rune by hearth much easier because you can compare it with something else what is always around you this say "Harry Potter".
But by Hermione did this go wrong. So wrong that she actuelly only in this exame of her OWLs did make a mistake. Thats strange.
Why couldn't she remember that eihwaz means "defence" and ehwaz "partnership"? Why did she write this wrong in the first place?
See to remember abstract things with comparing to common things which are always around you is a very popular technique and I expect that Hermione learn stuff like that.

Now patnership is something very different as defence and both runes don't look alike though the names are alike. But Hermione did get it after she did finish the exame this say she might have remember that her picture, or remember help isn't complett right. This say she didn't think of Harry as someone who was protected, better she didn't even think at first about his scar and how it looks alike with the runes. She was focused to his character.
Thats why she missread the runes. This technique went wrong by her thats probably even the reason why she wanted that he quiz her for history.

She did compare eihwaz with "partnership" and ehwaz with "defence" thats wrong and thats the reason why she did it wrong. She did learn it wrong and she did remember this runes which looks like Harrys scar wrong. This is interesting. This shows somehow how she learn stuff.

I know you will asl "Can't Hermione just do something wrong?" I agree she can but JKR did choice this two runes which one looks like Harrys scar and a Hermione who did mess this up though this is the most simple way to learn this rune and still she make a mistake? Thats a little bit much to believe.

Anyway something from GoF what keeps wondering about.
Its as Harry, Ron and Hermione visit Hagrid after Durmstrang and this french school did turn up. Its Helloween. Hermione think Its a great Idea that Hagrid might be a member for SPEW. She turns and want take this from the griffindor tower. I will quote what Ron says and overall what Harry says.


Thats strange very strange. I mean firsts is Hermione only Rons friend and than Harry don't speak further. He break up. Its like that in canon.

Once I did argue that Ron is just nosy about Hermione nothing more. Thats why he did keep asking where she is, who is her date and all this stuff. R/Hr did disagree there is no proof that Ron is indeed nosy because he is it only by Hermione. I couldn't proof it wrong though I knew its not right but now I reread GoF. I found it.
This is as Ron keeps asking what about they talk. Ron and not nosy, heh? I don't think so thats why he did keep asking by Hermione too. She has at times secrets and Ron don't like to be in the dark thats why he ask and is wondering about Hermione. No proof for liking her more as a friend, or?

Isn't It kinda strange that Crouch jr. did train Harry to resist the imperious curse? Its as If he had an own thing with Harry so he could kill him.

I think your questions and thoughts about the runes theory are really good FP. I think many clues to romance and other things can be found in other types of canon besides dailouge.

FP I think you posted a bit of diaolouge between Harry and Ron, from GoF when Hermione had went to get the S.P.E.W. buttons to take to Hagrid's. Ron asked a question and Harry answered something about a friend...? Anyway I can't find that post now, but I did read it a few times and was still puzzled as to what was the point you were trying to make. Could you explain that again?

Concerning other pairs

I think Susan and Harry would be an interesting pair. Though I don't think it would hold any thematic significance I don't think it too farfetched for it to be a possibility, but really any dating pair is a possibility. The question you have to ask yourself is what would the significance in the pair be? Is this who Harry will end up with or is it just an illustration of teenagers growing up at random? WHo knows in Book 6 Harry may go on an apethetic dating spree, not to say that he will lock lips with all the ladies but that they may have a coffee or tea date. (Just because he can. :) )

Viktor and Hermione-

Hmm, I've been posting that I thought Viktor would come back as the DADA prof. on the "Who will become the next DADA prof." thread for sometime.

I thought it be a great catylst if he'd simply come back and force some issues to come to light. His presence alone would have Ron really up tight. It would also be interesting to see how he fits into the mix.

I think Viktor's affection for Hermione is real cute. However can a prof. date a student? Well, Hermione doesn't neccsarily need to take DADA next book does she? I think she will, though, and that is the conflict. A professor can not date a student. But I have the funny feeling that even if they weren't dating, I can see Ron, accusing Viktor and Hermione of such at least once or of playing favorites. :)

Also Viktor's presence and affection toward Hermione may have an interesting affect on Draco. :lol:

I do think R/L and H/L are good possibilites, too.

I still think Draco is redeemable, too.

I also think it is interesting that Neville and Ginny both took an interesting twist in the series. Both seem to become more into their selves, if that makes any sense. Hmmm.

:welcome: prancer, 4kids, and madabouthermione

Also Pansy Our prayers are with you and your baby. :)

Peace and love, folks! :p

Hi!

I know I owe my big Ginny/Neville theory - I’m almost finishing it. I just couldn’t help replying this:

I also ask, why then is Ron having a crush on Hermione?? Or Ginny having a crush on Harry?? Why, because if its not going to happen, why write it??


Because it happens in real life all the time, maybe?!?!

It seems like you’re trying to imply that every crush we have in our lives must be necessarily requited!??!

I honestly don’t believe so. Truthfully, I’m really happy that most of the crushes I had when I was a teenager didn’t work, because they were based in such shallow feelings…

I know a lot of female/male long term friendships in which at least one of them at some time had a crush on the other. Most of the times, it didn’t work, because the crush wasn’t based on the person itself, but on the proximity of them.

Think about Sean, JKR’s best-friend… Ron was actually inspired by him. It’s highly possible that during their long friendship, one of them might have been jealous of the other. Did this mean they were in love? I don’t think so. Did she marry him? No.

Oh, isn’t nobody going to answer my previous question about the quote? :upset: Please?!?

FP I think you posted a bit of diaolouge between Harry and Ron, from GoF when Hermione had went to get the S.P.E.W. buttons to take to Hagrid's. Ron asked a question and Harry answered something about a friend...? Anyway I can't find that post now, but I did read it a few times and was still puzzled as to what was the point you were trying to make. Could you explain that again?


What's she like?" said Ron, exasperated, as Hermione ran away up the marble staircase. "Hey Ron," said Harry suddenly. "Its your friend..."

This is the bit. I did post this because I don't really understand why Harrys sentence is cut. As if he wanted say more but didn't. This is strange for me. Why is it like that? Its nearly mysterious like Hermiones sentence in OotP where we all guess did she kiss only Ron or not???.

LONDON (AP) - Author J.K. Rowling said Monday that her beloved character Harry Potter will start to discover the magic charms of girls as his literary adventures continue.


"Last time you met him, he was 13," Rowling said at a news conference at the British Library.

"He's 14 now and he's started to realize girls are quite interesting," she said. "I tend to think that if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books, he's not going to be too disappointed if, at some point, his hero holds hands with a little girl."

Yes, Ginny *has* been referred to as a little girl, probably most frequently. However, Cho was described as little [petite, short, similar]. Also, can someone check -- I don't have GoF handy -- but did Rita Skeeter refer to Hermione as a 'little girl' or some such, albeit intended in to belittle or disparage? Not sure, but my point is that only that Slytherin girl [Milicent Bulstrode ?] who headlocked or pinned Hermione has been described as large. And who's to say that Cho isn't smaller than Ginny? *Perhaps* it's a hint for Ginny, granted, but perhaps it's yet another vague and potentially misleading quote...that is, IMO it's by no means certain who was intended by that quote. Though I rather like the idea of Harry dating around a bit before getting a real clue, just to keep everyone on their toes ;) -- including Hermione [lest she have too much the upper hand with all her admirers!], who should probably do the same and surely will do if Viktor has any say...

tree guardian
The question you have to ask yourself is what would the significance in the pair be? Is this who Harry will end up with or is it just an illustration of teenagers growing up at random? WHo knows in Book 6 Harry may go on an apethetic dating spree, not to say that he will lock lips with all the ladies but that they may have a coffee or tea date. (Just because he can. )

Viktor and Hermione-
-Hmm, I've been posting that I thought Viktor would come back as the DADA prof. on the "Who will become the next DADA prof." thread for sometime.
-I thought it be a great catylst if he'd simply come back and force some issues to come to light. His presence alone would have Ron really up tight. It would also be interesting to see how he fits into the mix.
-I think Viktor's affection for Hermione is real cute. However can a prof. date a student? Well, Hermione doesn't neccsarily need to take DADA next book does she? I think she will, though, and that is the conflict. A professor can not date a student.

You know, tree guardian, I didn't see your stuff there till we discussed here, but I did see it when I posted over there as well, and I completely agree. I don't actually see anyone better suited than Viktor. Harry's the resident DADA genius, so no matter who fills the spot, Harry may have to assist with practicals. Nonetheless, Viktor has learnt dark arts directly and has resisted their corrupting influence, so he'd be a real asset on the side of good. And further, I absolutely agree Viktor's presence would be a great [and much needed] catalyst re: the interpersonal scene. Re: Viktor and Hermione, being the epitome of integrity and such, Hermione would probably get some sort of special exemption to date Viktor under express promise that she either 1) drop DADA [and Harry teaches her offhrs] or that she keep it but receive official instruction from someone other than Viktor [again...such as Harry?]. Would be a bit sticky, granted, but could still work and would def. make for an interesting read. Oh and re: Harry above, well, but of course! LOL! Loads could happen before things...become clear ;) And dating other persons could be exactly what's needed to clarify the situation and bring those destined to be final pairs closer to one another.

BTW ana_banana , I will try to find that earlier post I mentioned. There's a thread that the mods appear to have hidden...but if I posted it on another thread, I'll repost here after locating. I seem to recall that Sirius83 had a 'classic' post on the H/Hr 'signs' and the importance of love in the series -- there were loads of great essays by many posters and this is just one that comes to mind. There were several great textual analysis posts also by Turambar, Hawk92, Mad-Eye Mike, Flying Phoenix, and Perdita, just to name a few. When some of those folks reemerge from the Portkey site they're building and can dig around a bit [hopefully soon as we miss them ;)], I'm sure they won't mind reposting the greats.

Cheers!

He's 14 now and he's started to realize girls are quite interesting," she said. "I tend to think that if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books, he's not going to be too disappointed if, at some point, his hero holds hands with a little girl."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Evaluna

One of the key phrases in this paragraph is "if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books", i.e. a carefully reader. Harry's relationship/crush on Cho was extremely obvious. A careful reader does not have to figure this out,as it was thrown in our faces! So, based on that particular comment, Cho can be ruled out as the "little girl". Cho has been described as a small girl, but never a constant stream of "little girl" descriptions, as Ginny has.

As for Hermione, I will go back and check the above reference that you gave, Evaluna, but I believe it either says "stupid girl" or "silly girl". Hermione has never been given these continuous little girl descriptions, if at all. Unless there is a new character who is going to be sprung upon us, the above quote can only belong to Ginny (at some point), which is similar to "pairings in the fullness of time".

I don't believe we can see Cho as the little girl since she is older than Harry.....I think it's Ginny...but oh well lol.
I've read some essays, but I've never found ANY evidence that proves Harry and Hermione have or will have feelings for each other, the essays only prove they have a good friendship....

Rita calls Hermione "Little Miss Perfect" twice. But really aren't all kids at that age little? And why is it that the R/Hr and H/G shippers continually return to JKR's quotes to try and reinforce their arguments? Could it be for lack of substantial evidence to support their ships in canon?

Why is every post here so long? Don't get me wrong, they're wonderful posts, it's just hard catching up and reading everything.

Anyhoo :welcome: to all newcomers. Stick around, read the posts, pull out your hair out of frustration... :p


Turamber, There is a lot of canon evidence to support a relationship between Ron and Hermione. Not so much Ginny and Harry at the moment, everything to suggest them is quite subtle, imho. But the clues are laid out for Ron and Hermione. Tell me, why is it that when someone brings up quotes dismissing the H/Hr ship, people say that JK's probably just lying. Or that she doesn't tell her plots for the stories and is just misleading us or whatever?


Anyhoo, Prongs Sr, ana banana, everyone on the HMS Heron and Chocolate, wonderful posts. Take a :clap:

HMS Harmony, good posts, too. :clap:

One of the key phrases in this paragraph is "if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books", i.e. a carefully reader. Harry's relationship/crush on Cho was extremely obvious. A careful reader does not have to figure this out,as it was thrown in our faces!

As was Ginny's crush on Harry; that one is definitely a no-brainer. ;)

But the clues are laid out for Ron and Hermione.

Please site a few solid examples beside Ron's overt jealousy, because the "jealousy" could be open to interpretation.

Tell me, why is it that when someone brings up quotes dismissing the H/Hr ship, people say that JK's probably just lying.

I don't believe anyone ever said that JKR is lying, but she is extremely tricky; she is cunning and avoids direct answers. So that is why most of us H/Hr shippers believe that her interviews are often misleading and should not be used to prove anything.

Or that she doesn't tell her plots for the stories and is just misleading us or whatever?

Um JKR never directly tells us her plots in future books.

Prongs, Sr, *ahem* I simply refuse to take offense at your suggestion that I am not a careful reader ;) Heh heh. Didn't get page number [sorry] and it is abysmally late...however I did copy the pertinent bit of text from GoF, clipped for brevity. Chapter 24, 'Rita Skeeter's Scoop':

Hermione stood up very abruptly, [etc]
'You horrible woman', she said, through gritted teeth, 'you don't care, do you, anything for a story, and anyone will do, won't they? Even Ludo Bagman --'
'Sit down, you silly little girl, and don't talk about things you don't understand',
said Rita Skeeter coldly, [etc]
<snip>
'She'll be after you next, Hermione', said Ron.
'Let her try'! said Hermione, 'I'll show her! Silly little girl, am I? [etc]'...

So actually Hermione is referred to as a little girl, at least this one time. Note that this is a disparaging reference. Interestingly, Fleur made the same kind of disparaging reference with regard to Harry. I'm sure just as Fleur revised her opinion, so too did Rita -- and perhaps not by choice;).
Cheers!

.

Please site a few solid examples beside Ron's overt jealousy, because the "jealousy" could be open to interpretation.

You can't count jealousy as a sign? Well fudgersticks. Okay, you've got Ron giving Hermione perfume. Perfume!! If that ain't a romantic gift then I don't know what is.

I don't believe anyone ever said that JKR is lying, but she is extremely tricky; she is cunning and avoids direct answers. So that is why most of us H/Hr shippers believe that her interviews are often misleading and should not be used to prove anything.

For lack of a better word, I used the word 'lying'. Sorry 'bout that. Anyhoo, I've seen and read her interviews. When she's being "misleading" it's always about a question that goes deep into the plot. Like why does Voldie want to kill Harry so bad. Or what profession Harry's parents were. She says that she doesn't want to give anything away about that type of information and so is vague in her answering. However, when she's asked about relationships, Ron and Hermione and Harry and Hermoione, she's pretty straight forward. Do Harry and Hermione have a date? The answer: No. They are very platonic friends. Was something going on between Ron and Hermione? Answer: Yes, something's going on, but Ron doesn't realixe it yet. Typical boy.

Um JKR never directly tells us her plots in future books.

Did I say she did? If I did then I gots to go back and edit my post.

So yup. :p

No, JK never tells anything about the book directly, but you do know when shes hinting something and when she is definitely NOT.
Anyway, I'm craving some *chocolate* LOL. Great posts h/g shippers!!

You can't count jealousy as a sign?

Nope, because Ron reacted similarly with Ginny's boyfriends.

Well fudgersticks. Okay, you've got Ron giving Hermione perfume. Perfume!! If that ain't a romantic gift then I don't know what is.

I find it amusing that you choose to use the perfume incident as evidence, because if that is suppose to be one of the so-called

clues [that are] laid out for Ron and Hermione

then Hermione's reaction couldn't be possibly more against what you said.

Maybe Ron's gift really isn't what she wanted; but we can't blame Ron, since poor Hermione just couldn't seem to muster enough enthusiam for Christmas, but then again, she was rather excited with Harry's gift; it might have nothing to do with "Christmas" after all. ;)


Anyhoo, I've seen and read her interviews. When she's being "misleading" it's always about a question that goes deep into the plot. Like why does Voldie want to kill Harry so bad. Or what profession Harry's parents were. She says that she doesn't want to give anything away about that type of information and so is vague in her answering.

But you forget: Romance *is* a part of the plot. :D


However, when she's asked about relationships, Ron and Hermione and Harry and Hermoione, she's pretty straight forward. Do Harry and Hermione have a date? The answer: No. They are very platonic friends. Was something going on between Ron and Hermione? Answer: Yes, something's going on, but Ron doesn't realixe it yet. Typical boy.

You don't find that misleading? Really? I find that particularly misleading; JKR has never stated that Harry and Hermione will never progress beyond friendship; similarly, she has never confirmed that the "something" is romance, so we have no idea what Ron doesn't realize. Maybe it's his sudden revelation that Hermione is more like his sister than anything else. ;)

Cheers!

Polaris

BTW ana_banana , I will try to find that earlier post I mentioned. There's a thread that the mods appear to have hidden...but if I posted it on another thread, I'll repost here after locating. I seem to recall that Sirius83 had a 'classic' post on the H/Hr 'signs' and the importance of love in the series -- there were loads of great essays by many posters and this is just one that comes to mind. There were several great textual analysis posts also by Turambar, Hawk92, Mad-Eye Mike, Flying Phoenix, and Perdita, just to name a few. When some of those folks reemerge from the Portkey site they're building and can dig around a bit [hopefully soon as we miss them ], I'm sure they won't mind reposting the greats.

Hem hem, Hawk 92 is still very much around. :p

And yes SIGNS the
Society
Introducing
Ginny
Neville
Shipping

was one of my ships that I brought to the masses in the pre OotP love thread. Firmly believeing that Neville had a bigger role to play and that Ginny/Neville would be a nice lighthearted romance that would not be too gritty. I fact it was one of my favorite ships in the old thread because no one cared enough to tear your theories apart and for the most part they got ignored. But I would love to see your theory nappa 32 I think that there is just as much texual evidence for N/G as there is for H/G and tons more for N/G than for Neville/Luna (someone really needs to tell me where this ship came from).

One of the key phrases in this paragraph is "if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books", i.e. a carefully reader. Harry's relationship/crush on Cho was extremely obvious. A careful reader does not have to figure this out,as it was thrown in our faces! So, based on that particular comment, Cho can be ruled out as the "little girl". Cho has been described as a small girl, but never a constant stream of "little girl" descriptions, as Ginny has.

This wasn't aimed at me but what the heck. Does careful reader translate into insert (name) here? Being American I've been told on this thread that english is my second language :p Before that gets quoted let me say JOKE. I honestly think that JKR was refering to a little girl, such as younger than herself.

Fairydust

For lack of a better word, I used the word 'lying'. Sorry 'bout that. Anyhoo, I've seen and read her interviews. When she's being "misleading" it's always about a question that goes deep into the plot. Like why does Voldie want to kill Harry so bad. Or what profession Harry's parents were. She says that she doesn't want to give anything away about that type of information and so is vague in her answering. However, when she's asked about relationships, Ron and Hermione and Harry and Hermoione, she's pretty straight forward. Do Harry and Hermione have a date? The answer: No. They are very platonic friends. Was something going on between Ron and Hermione? Answer: Yes, something's going on, but Ron doesn't realixe it yet. Typical boy.

Oh goody. A debate about quotes. I've been missing Mad I Moody for a while to debate this. Shall we?

Now can you establish what the something is? Remember this is to occur in the second half of Gof. A specific book. Interesting enough there is nothing to say that this something is in OotP or that this something will grow. And lets face it I'm probably not the only guy to have liked a girl that didn't like me back. Typical. And if Ron doesn't know then Hermione does, so if Hermione knows then she doesn't return the feelings. Or do you have proof that she does?

Also given the previous debate with the quotes that showed to put holes in the HMS Chocolate, I'm honestly suprised that a true H/G shipper would use quotes to support their ship.

Cheers!

Excuse me?? Do you own a book called HERMIONE GRANGER AND THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX? Because, you know what Hermione wanted for the christmas, which isn't mentioned in the book...

ana_banana,

But I think to over analyze a quote from JK that is very clear is unnecessary. When JK is asked of something important and she doesn't want to answer she just says something like "we'll see" or "i can't answer that" or stuff like that. JK said they are platonic friends, and that should be enough to see JK has no plan of making them a couple.

It most unfortunately is not enough for many readers, myself included. When the actual text, written by the author herself, contradicts the words she uses in an interview concerning her own text, I tend to hold more belief for the text. As the author, it is perfectly within her right to mislead the readers with her spoken words.

I also ask, why then is Ron having a crush on Hermione?? Or Ginny having a crush on Harry?? Why, because if its not going to happen, why write it??

Because, as Fabiana mentioned, that's life. We're all terribly fond of interview quotes today; here's one: "Let no one say that my books don't reflect reality!"

Harry and Hermione would create a love triangle we all know can't happen in the Harry Potter world.

We do?

I don't see why you consider this possibility invalid. If it's an issue of your own personal preference, then I would agree with you (the love triangle scenario makes me queasy), but other than that, I can't see why it's so definitive that it will not happen.

And the clues for H/G have been posted many times, in this thread as well. You guys didn't show me any clues at all, you said they were already posted but >> I << think they are only proving Harry and Hermione are friends.

And I think the H/G clues that have been posted prove nothing by way of romantic foreshadowing or implications. We're not here to convince and convert one another to our ships, we're here to cite and debate the evidence for each ship. The evidence for H/Hr has been posted more than any other ship's evidence in this thread and the past editions, and, as evaluna mentioned, I'm sure that many of us would be happy to dig up the numerous posts for your benefit. I can help by directing you toward the posts of Sirius83, Mad Eye Mike, Perdita, Turambar, FlyingPhoenix, evaluna, BabyMars, Grace Granger, GryffindorGal, and several others. Also, the 'HMS Harmony' link in FlyingPhoenix's signature will take you to the H/Hr file, which includes quite a few clues for our ship.

don't understand what you mean....please explain...
Certainly. You said that non-H/G shippers were attempting to dismiss and excuse every interaction between Harry and Ginny. My point is that what we are dismissing is the idea that there is a wonderful, deep, emotional connection between Harry and Ginny at this stage--which is, indeed, what the H/G ship in general seems to imply.

*waves to Hawk* I was beginning to wonder where SIGNS went. :D

Excuse me??
You're excused. :rolleyes:

Do you own a book called HERMIONE GRANGER AND THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX?

Nope, although I wish I did; then all the R/Hr shipper shippers wouldn't be here debating with me. ;)

Because, you know what Hermione wanted for the christmas, which isn't mentioned in the book...

I never said I knew what she wanted (but based on her reaction to Harry's gift, it was clearly among the top ten things in her letter to Santa.) However, Ron's gift is clearly something she isn't enthusiastic about; the contrast to her reactions to both gifts says a lot about what she thinks of them. :agree:

Cheers!

Polaris

EDIT: Actually, I'll correct myself. I *do* know what Hermione wanted. She said so herself, "Thanks Harry! I've been wanting it for ages!" (paraphrasing) :p

Very funny....Now I see no difference in Hermione's excitement towards neither of the gifts....
Not one of the H/Hr has showed anything more than friendship, as I repeat, yet again...
And what I mean about the triangle, how in this world do you think Harry Potter will include a love-triangle that includes the 3 of them?? Hermione has showed interest in Ron, Ron has shown interest in Hermione, Harry never showed any more-tahn-friends interest on Hermione at all.......
And, although I don't think Harry loves Ginny right now, you can't deny the connection, because if you don't see it, then we are not reading the same books...

Prongs, Sr, *ahem* I simply refuse to take offense at your suggestion that I am not a careful reader Heh heh. Didn't get page number [sorry] and it is abysmally late...however I did copy the pertinent bit of text from GoF, clipped for brevity. Chapter 24,

Evaluna: LOL! I would never accuse H/Hr's of not being careful readers; I think there is a tendency to read to much into sub-text. Please don't take that the wrong way!

I would like to point out a pattern of Ginny's character development that shows her as being called a "little girl" in text and the pattern of her development as a girl who is simply to young to be considered Harry's love interest.

All quotes are from American versions of the books.

SS #95: ...piped a small girl...
SS #97: Harry heard the little girl's voice, "oh, mom, can I go on the train and see him."
Cos #36: Mrs. Weasley now came galloping into view, her handbag swinging wildly in one hand, Ginny just clinging onto the other.
Cos #67: I'll take Ginny and you two come right after us, Mrs. Weasley told Harry and Ron, grabbing Ginny's hand...
Cos #309: My diary. Little Ginny's been writing in it for months and months.
Cos #310: I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley.
Cos #311: It took a very long time for stupid little Ginny to stop trusting her diary.
POA #9: Mum wouldn't let Ginny come in the last one. THere were mutant skeletons in there.
POA #259: Cho Chang, was the only girl on their team. She was shorter than Harry by a head...
GOF #54: One with bushy brown hair and rather large front teeth, was Harry and ROn's friend, Hermione Granger. The other, who was small and red-haired, was Ron's sister, Ginny.
GOF #120: C'mon, said, Fred, grabbing Ginny's hand and starting to pull her towards the wood.
OOTP #761: I've got a broom, etc...."You're too young-Harry began."
OOTP: Very well, take the smallest one. Let him watch while we torture the little girl.

I think it is clear that Ginny has been described in appearance as being small. She has also been shown as being a "little girl" by Molly's overprotective attitude towards her; and even one example of Fred trying to hold her hand. She is thirteen at this point.

I feel that Ginny has been hidden by JKR as Harry's love interest, due to the emphasis of her "little girl" characteristics. Even in book 5, she still seems to be underestimated by Harry, as he is implying that she is too young to go to the MoM.

As for other girls meeting this description. Cho is described as small, but she is also described as a year older and hence more sophisticated (in Harry's eyes) and more unapproachable.

Hermione has never been giving these type of descriptions, except by Rita Skeeter in the above quote that Evaluna has and also in OOTP; where she is described as "little miss perfect" and "miss prissy". I find it unlikely that she is the "little girl" in this quote. On the other hand, the evidence for Ginny being the "little girl" seems to be fairly conclusive.

Also given the previous debate with the quotes that showed to put holes in the HMS Chocolate, I'm honestly suprised that a true H/G shipper would use quotes to support their ship.

Hi Hawk92!

I must have missed that argument because I think the above "little girl" quote and the quote "languishing in love" definitely point in the H/G direction. Also, I feel that JKR's various quotes on Harry and Hermione being platonic friends, etc., are pretty conclusive, IMO, that H/Hr will not happen.

Very funny....Now I see no difference in Hermione's excitement towards neither of the gifts....

Really? :huh: Then I suggest you go back and read that section again. Trust me: none of us will think you're not a careful reader. ;)

Not one of the H/Hr has showed anything more than friendship, as I repeat, yet again...
Funny, neither have you provided any solid R/Hr evidence; as far as H/G? None at all.

And what I mean about the triangle, how in this world do you think Harry Potter will include a love-triangle that includes the 3 of them??
It's quite possible, but I think that Ron will be over his crush on Hermione fairly soon before Harry and Hermione gets together; that way, there wouldn't be "tension". We wouldn't want that now, would we. ;)

Hermione has showed interest in Ron,

Please enlighten me. Evidence please.

Harry never showed any more-tahn-friends interest on Hermione at all.......

But one must never speak for the future.

And, although I don't think Harry loves Ginny right now, you can't deny the connection, because if you don't see it, then we are not reading the same books...
Perhaps you are not reading the same books as the rest of us. ;)

Cheers
Polaris

Believe me, I read that section. And I'm not going to be providing evidence, when the evidence is already posted.
If one must never speak for the future..........then.......how come you ship H/Hr. Theres no SOLID proof for them, besides their friendship...so I don't see what you are getting at...
So wow!! You already know what's going to happen in the books......now that is funny. Because you know things that haven't been proven in the books.
Everyone can ship whatever they want, just don't claim things that aren't there, and I'm not referring to H/Hr...

Prongs: That's quite a list.

Warning: personal opinion ahead:

I'm afraid that list made my stomach churn. If JKR wants to put her hero with a character after emphasising that character's smallness, little girlness, weakness, dependency then that's her business. But I won't agree with it. Even the improved Ginny of OOTP showed a disappointing lack of initiative, an inability to question or think for herself and a willingness to hand over problems to males. Thank goodness Hermione's strength and intelligence have always been emphasised.

[INDENT]He's 14 now and he's started to realize girls are quite interesting," she said. "I tend to think that if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books, he's not going to be too disappointed if, at some point, his hero holds hands with a little girl."

What I don't get is "I tend to think that if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books,.."

What is that supposed to mean? I don't think it applies to Harry at all. I mean when, how, and to whom is Harry supposed to be sufficently engaged? Harry has never shown concious or obvious romantic interest in Ginny or Hermione. I've always been confused with this quote and have thought the quote best fit Ron. But then how could it fit Ron, when Ron hadn't shown obvious interest towards Hermione until GoF and Ron did have a very big problem with Viktor holding hands with Hermione?

I just don't get it. Where is it implied that Harry is engaged to Ginny, suffeciently?

Granted I thought after Ron suggested Ginny go to the ball with Harry she would have, but then the next lines read that she can't go with Harry cause she is going with Neville.

Does Ginny's crush on Harry signify sufficient engagement? I don't think so. I have never understood this quote and no one has ever explained how this quote is refering to Harry and Ginny and how that is supported in canon.

;) Have a good one!

I'm afraid that list made my stomach churn. If JKR wants to put her hero with a character after emphasising that character's smallness, little girlness, weakness, dependency then that's her business. But I won't agree with it. Even the improved Ginny of OOTP showed a disappointing lack of initiative, an inability to question or think for herself and a willingness to hand over problems to males. Thank goodness Hermione's strength and intelligence have always been emphasised.

:clap: :clap: You took the words out of my mouth, Turambar.

Polaris:
Jane Austen used it, but need I to remind you that JKR is definitely NOT Jane Austen.

No Off course JKR isn't Austen. JKR is her Fan!

Correction: ONE writer using the technique; the other's ideas are still fluctuating in the dark.

I would say copying it more like.

Perhaps not.

Who knows? perhaps it is!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the one who made the remark several posts ago that Ron is closer to Hermione than Harry is? I'm simply pointing out that Hermione is not as close to Ron as you may think. In fact, she chose to eat with Ginny, who was definitely, at that time, not one of her best friends; but Hermione chose to be with Ginny rather than with Ron; wasn't Ron her best friend? Even if Ron was having a falling out with Harry, how does that interfere with Hermione's actions? Why didn't Hermione eat breakfast with Ron?

Yes Hermione is closer in this book (IMO) to Ron. What does Ginny has to do on this? I'm still not getting where you are going.

It was Ginny who approached Harry, he didn't voluntarily seek her out; if fact, it is Hermione, who Harry goes to when he has a problem, not Ginny.

Well the fact is that he did tell Ginny.

It has never been in question because their friendship is not deep enough to be considered.

Well better yet. Let's say that it doesn't exist!

Please. Don't insult JKR's writing skills; if she really did want to end in OBHWF, she can do better than that.

So JKR is a lousy writter, I guess. I think that JKR has already done a wonderful job at foreshadowing OBHWF. It's all there. The Weasley's are already a huge part of the books, they are essential to Harry.

Yeah, when you add those wonderful adverbs like "nastily and acidly" you really get a superb combination of word choice.

Ain't funny how her bitterness that Ron doesn't ask her out flows out her pores! I think that's hilarious!

And It is also very clear to me that Hermione *doesn't* like Ron presently, and her opinion of him is not as high as you may think.

Are you seriously suggesting that you have a better opinion on this books that I can have? :whistle:

If JKR really wanted to show that Neville had a crush on Hermione, then she would have had Neville act hurt and disappointed when Hermione rejected him, not turn around and ask Ginny. It would also be fairly easy if this message is conveyed through Ron's conversation with Neville, but then again, JKR didn't; so clearly, Neville didn't have a crush on Hermione.

It's clear from my interpretation that Neville likes Hermione.


To me, Harry and Hermione have a certain closeness that people strive to reach. They have a mental bond that others don't share. They often know what the other is thinking, and they understand each other and cares for each other deeply. Although their relationship is not romantic presently, their friendship could easily blossom into something more.

I see none of that. I only see a friendship. That's it, but not one going romantically.

Dominique:

If she doesn't disagree, I will. Not being uncomfortable with two people hooking up is a long way from approving or even actively pushing two people together. I don't see any canon evidence that Ginny is attempting to get Ron and Hermione together.

I keep on asking the same question. Where does Ginny says that she is a matchmaker or something along those lines. I don't see why Ginny needs to take charge on the duty of getting Ron and Hermione toguether. Why does she needs to get in the middle of it?

Funny how two people can read the same book and come to wildly different conclusions. Before OotP came out, I actually thought R/Hr might have a shot, and even that Hermione might vaguely be interested in Ron. After OotP, however, I radically changed my mind. Hermione's feelings are still ambiguous, just as they've always been in GoF, but now they're ambiguous on the side of disinterest. Her reaction to Ron's Christmas gift, the way she didn't even want to stay and celebrate his Quidditch victory... No, I'm still a long way from being convinced that she likes him back.

I don't feel that Hermione feelings are ambigous. I'm clear on what she sides on.

I agree with this. Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with Ginny going to the Ball with Neville. He's a nice guy; she really wants to go, it's a win-win situation, IMO. No, she didn't like him trampling all over her feet, but give the guy a break -- he's clumsy by nature and probably nervous as hell.

Horray!!! Someone agrees with something. I didn't see anything wrong either.

What, a romantic relationship based on harmony, equality and love? Could you hang on while I break up with my boyfriend?

I don't see any of those three things between H/Hr. I just don't. I see a friendship that while still good clearly needs some work. Definetly no one that is shifting thru a romantic point.

You keep saying "clearly" while it's not. Hey, clearly Harry doesn't like Ginny that way either, and canon now also clearly says Ginny's given up on Harry. And prove to me they're "intended" for other people. None of us here is JKR (*looks around suspiciously*) and the fact remains that we simply don't know yet where JKR is going with the story, or even that she won't change her mind midway through. We don't know *anything* about JKR's intentions.

I say clearly because to me it's clear.

(Quick intro: *waves* Hullo. Am new, but I've seen some of you over on FA and Portkey. Name's Dominique, I ship H/Hr, and if my sentences look awkward sometimes, it's because English is my second language. )

Yes I know, Hello! BTW I know you tried to send me a message when OoP came out but my PM got full. Sorry! :welcome:

Fabiana:

Could you please tell me where the quote below comes from? I mean, in which context JKR said it... Did she say this after answering a question (if so, what question) or did she just state it? (in which context?)

Here is the link:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0300-ap.html

I would be happy to bring out the well-worn time-qualifier debate regarding the quote you cited in order to support my opinion that the statement was intended for GoF. Or, if you like, I can concede that the quote referred to the entire series. The question was, "Do Harry and Hermione have a date?" The answer was "no, they are very platonic friends". It is not beyond my realm of imagination that Harry and Hermione can develop feelings for one another without actually having a "date". The question was not, "Do Harry and Hermione fall in love?", as we can see from the quote cited in your previous post.

I don't need a time qualifier the fact that she didn't say for what book they were it's for me enough to know. That added up that she has said she answers to all books.

And my point is that the statement that Ginny is the only person that can understand Harry, because of the fact that they both shared encountered with Voldemort, is incorrect. Please note that my original point was not directed to you specifically. I was referring to a general consensus among H/G shippers I've discussed this with which I happen to disagree with. However, since you claim that Ginny is 'for now' the only person that can understand what Harry went through, aren't you implying that she is indeed not as unique as the H/G ship generally likes to claim? Because you say 'for now', I can infer that you agree that more than one person has experienced similar encounters with Voldemort. How is Ginny still the special one?

I'm not getting what you are asking. Can you clarify this for me?

"And this one--" he gestured at Neville "--was trying to stop us from taking her--" he pointed at Ginny, who was trying to kick the shins of her Slytherin captor.
--OotP, "Out of the Fire"

Oh so this is how we based that Neville went to rescue Ginny only. Wow! :nc:
I'm speechless and here I thought that Neville was Ginny's friend. How could I been so stupid!

I don't believe anyone was arguing that Ginny may not like R/Hr. I disagreed with your statement that Ginny actively wanted them to get together, because it was unsupported by canon. Indifference does not imply active support.

I don't have time to go look how did this discoussion started but I clearly remember someone said something about it. I say she doesn't mind but to play matchmaker there is a huge diference.

Yet the fact that Ron actually actively SABOTAGED her efforts to hide the elf hats and neglected to own up to this indicates that Ron cares about her and her cause?

Harry sabotage Hermione's efforts because he is sorry. But that's okay! It's Harry he is allowed to do that I guess.

What do you mean by the "ugly point"? I'm not sure what you're implying here. Do you think that Harry and Hermione's friendship is really so terrible?

I don't think that their friendship is terrible, once again they are friends. But clearly in OoP their friendship is being less than friendly. H/Hr friendship has a lot of troubles.

Because it happens in real life all the time, maybe?!?!

As much as JKR wants her character to be like Real life. This is literature not real life. Plot lines have to be solved and have a purpose.

Yes, Ginny *has* been referred to as a little girl, probably most frequently. However, Cho was described as little [petite, short, similar]. Also, can someone check -- I don't have GoF handy -- but did Rita Skeeter refer to Hermione as a 'little girl' or some such, albeit intended in to belittle or disparage?

Since we MUST fit Hermione in here. I will help you out. She says 'silly little girl' on Cho's case is 'Shorter by a head' not little.
H/G shippers let us ignore that Ginny is insistently refer with that name and JKR' seems to have an obsession to point to us how little she is. That doesn't count. Since JKR uses it with other people now she is misleading us. :whistle:

Gily Ann

Prongs, Sr. :clap: Excellent post!

Thanks Earendil.
I agree with Prongs that there is a pattern there but I hope the conclusion - that it's to hide a future romance with Harry - is wrong.
It does appear that the pattern is to do with other characters dismissing or overlooking Ginny. In a way the pattern is similar to the one surrounding Neville: the boy having been characteristed as a sweet-natured, bumbling target of bullies turns out to be more important in the scheme of things.
JKR has already made use of the idea of characters taking Ginny lightly in COS where Ginny was off with Riddle while no-one was paying attention.

Turambar:

Prongs: That's quite a list.

Warning: personal opinion ahead:

I'm afraid that list made my stomach churn. If JKR wants to put her hero with a character after emphasising that character's smallness, little girlness, weakness, dependency then that's her business. But I won't agree with it. Even the improved Ginny of OOTP showed a disappointing lack of initiative, an inability to question or think for herself and a willingness to hand over problems to males. Thank goodness Hermione's strength and intelligence have always been emphasised.

My "list" as you called it, was merely to point out that Ginny has been consistently described as a little girl, both in text and in characterization. I believe strongly that she is the "little girl" who will grow up to be Harry's love interest. I believe this is JKR's means of hiding Ginny as Harry's love interest. I think "my list" is pretty conclusive evidence that JKR is speaking of Ginny as Harry's future romantic partner in the "holding hands with a little girl" quote.


TREE GUARDIAN:

What I don't get is "I tend to think that if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books,.."

Engaged in this situation, does not mean "engaged to be married", it means "to involve oneself or become occupied". So if someone is involved by reading carefully the books, they won't think it a surprise when their hero holds hands with a "little girl".

Great post, Gily Ann!

Prongs: That's quite a list.

Warning: personal opinion ahead:

I'm afraid that list made my stomach churn.

Are you sure it wasn't something you ate? :p

If JKR wants to put her hero with a character after emphasising that character's smallness, little girlness, weakness, dependency then that's her business. But I won't agree with it. Even the improved Ginny of OOTP showed a disappointing lack of initiative, an inability to question or think for herself and a willingness to hand over problems to males. Thank goodness Hermione's strength and intelligence have always been emphasised.

If you indeed see Ginny that way then that's your interpretation and your opinion. Ginny was a totally kickass in this story. Many may disagree, but eh. I thought Ginny was kickass in this story.

She took initiative. She was the one to talk to Harry when he was feeling so down. She was the one who helped him. Tell me, why wasn't it Ron? Or at least Hermione who seems to be on such a wave length with him? Why didn't they, his two best friends, see that he was really down about something and try to help?

An inability to question or think for herself? Are we reading the same stroy?

Willingness to hand over problems to the the males? She got help from them, yes. But did she actually just tell Gred and Forge the problem and leave it at that? I don't think so. But that's just my interpretation and opinion. And anyway, at least she tried to help. She wasn't the one that tried to stop him even though it was important to him.

Well you'd think that Hermione's strengths and so on would be emphasised since she's been like the only female lead thus far. But because her strengths and whatnot are so emphasised, we don't really see her faults, which is quite a few in my opinion.


So. Yup. :p

To everybody using JKR quotes to dismiss a possible romance between Harry and Hermione, I say JKR's quotes/statements could be misleading at times. I came across this discussion forum which basically implies that she tends to answer questions inaccurately. To quote the poster from the forum http://talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=3077
"Treat [JKR's comments] with suspicion and a grain of salt."

Ciao!

But if she outright dismisses something we shouldn't trust it? She's been vague on many occasions but when asked about Harry and Hermione she seems pretty blunt.

Do Harry and Hermione have a date? Answer: No. They are very platonic friends.

Any snogging between Harry and Hermione? Answer: Harry and Hermione. (I swear to goodness if you saw her facial expression. It was a whatthehellareyouon look. But you can disregard that if you don't think it's good enough.) Ron and Hermione, that's where the tension is.

Was something going on betwen Ron and Hermione? Answer: Yes, something's going on, but Ron doesn't realise it yet. Typical boy.

Jeebus... if you can't trust any of her quotes then why continue asking her questions if you've got to take everything with "a grain of salt?"

Jeebus... if you can't trust any of her quotes then why continue asking her questions if you've got to take everything with "a grain of salt?"

Well, simply put, we're not the ones who asked those questions. JKR has also not given a confirmatory answer to those questions, otherwise we would not be debating this issue. As such, when one tries to use the interviews to prove canon, all I can say is that she has not given us a straight answer and has in fact answered in ways that throw you off track, therefore I will continue to take those interviews with a grain of salt.

Prongs: That's quite a list.

Warning: personal opinion ahead:

I'm afraid that list made my stomach churn. If JKR wants to put her hero with a character after emphasising that character's smallness, little girlness, weakness, dependency then that's her business. But I won't agree with it. Even the improved Ginny of OOTP showed a disappointing lack of initiative, an inability to question or think for herself and a willingness to hand over problems to males. Thank goodness Hermione's strength and intelligence have always been emphasised.


:clap: I agree with you 100% Turambar. :clap:

It’s nice to be back! I’ve had trouble with my DSL service and it’s the ‘pits’ to have missed such great discussions. I had prepared a rebuttal to Daveydee and now I’ll just sound like a late goose to comment, so I’ll scrap that and join the current flow of discussion.

Big welcome to fellow shipper Dominique! :welcome: I loved your post! Welcome also to Prancer! :welcome:


I really enjoyed the discussions between Evaluna, Turambar and Noddwyd and Flying Phoenix’s very enlightening comments which were too numerous to mention. BTW, Flying Phoenix, I absolutely loved your “Harry, Just Harry” essay, but I seem to recall there was more to it. There was something about how everyone else sees Harry as “the boy who lived while Hermione only sees ‘Harry.’ Did you just post an exerpt?

EricaM your analysis of The Little White Horse was captivating! I have ordered it from Amazon. I’m quite surprised there wasn’t more discussion since JKR asserted that The Little White Horse had more influence on the Harry Potter books than any other.
This quote was taken from a 2002 interview in “The Scotsman:”

MY favourite book was The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge. It was probably something to do with the fact that the heroine was quite plain but it is a very well-constructed and clever book and the more you read it, the cleverer it appears. And perhaps more than any other book, it has a direct influence on the Harry Potter books. The author always included details of what her characters were eating and I remember liking that. You may have noticed that I always list the food being eaten at Hogwarts.

Full interview link is HERE (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2002/1102-fraser-scotsman.html)

After I’ve read it I’d love to discuss this book in light of the current ship discussions. (Sigh, we’ll probably be on a new thread by then.)

I found Daveydee’s theory very intriguing except for Harry’s suicide at the end. That does not at all fit into what seems to be JKR’s world view. Her favorite books, The Little White Horse, Emma and some of the others she mentioned are uplifting and redemptive. It would fit perfectly if Kafka or Kierkegaard were writing the Harry Potter books, but only if. On the very surface existentialism does seem to have a place in Rowling’s thoughts, especially in the concept of subjectivity ethics, existential ontology and choice. Other than that, I cannot detect the presence of existentialist angst or nothingness or any of the other profoundly depressing aspects of this philosophy. Dying for a cause greater than oneself is noble, suicide is utterly cowardly and I can’t picture Harry ever taking the craven coward’s way out.

Harry and Luna as partners

I can see this on some plane of imagination, but, as a female, it really grates to think that JKR would write a meaningful relationship precipitated on pity. I see Luna as Harry’s guide into realms of thought that defy the rational, but a love interest of such magnitude that he’d commit suicide for? I’m sorry, but I cannot see that.

On the Runes discussion:

This is one of my favorite clues in OoP and it tightly fits the course of the narrative from book one. I do disagree somewhat with the course of the discussion which seemed to conclude that Hermione got the meaning wrong for the rune eihwaz, which looked like Harry’s scar. Actually, she got the meaning wrong for the rune, ehwaz, which looks like the letter M:


’How were the Runes?’ said Ron, yawning and stretching.
‘I mis-translated ehwaz,’ said Hermione furiously ‘It means partnership, not defence.’ I mixed it up with eihwaz.’
- OWLs, p. 715, US Edition

If she were focused on Harry’s scar, then she would have mixed it up with sowilu, which looks precisely like a lightning bolt and is even associated with Harry's sun sign. Have a look for yourself HERE (http://www.netlabs.net/hp/skatty/runes/sowilu.htm)
I don’t think there is any question that Hermione deeply cares for Harry and that she would do anything within her power to keep him safe.
She has been trying to defend Harry against outside forces as well as his own erroneous decisions since PS/SS, even to the point of appointing herself his personal guardian. My thinking is she did this because HARRY ALLOWED IT. Up until OoP, she has done it so often, she doesn’t begin to contemplate a different approach with him until his hostility demands she find a different way to help him.

In Order of the Phoenix, Harry borders manhood and is faced with the numerous disillusionments that naturally come with maturity along with several unique to his own person. Harry is forced into making decisions without the comfortable and reliable sources of guidance and direction he has become used to. Dumbledore is rendered ineffective because of Voldemort’s access to Harry’s mind, Hagrid is preoccupied with family matters, the other teachers are forbidden to discuss anything outside of classroom concerns with students and most of the student body believes the “Daily Prophet.” Harry is compelled to make a dramatic paradigm shift, as his own illusions are shattered. Many readers have noted that Order of the Phoenix has a different “tone” than the other books. Harry has become more proactive and aggressive than previously and his anger is partly the direct consequence of seeing his world without the veil of innocence, and partly a feeling of being underestimated and kept in ignorance by his adopted ‘family.’ (Hermione, the Weasleys, Dumbledore, Sirius and Hagrid) Harry sees the WW as it is and he cannot be the same, he sees the adults around him with all their failings and feels patronized and betrayed. His angry rejections to Hermione’s protection are partially reactions to his anger at everyone’s overprotectiveness.


The problem is that Harry’s actions precipitated on anger have become destructive. It begins with him throwing out Ron and Hermione’s gifts of chocolates because he is angry with the two of them. This action results in his being hungry. It culminates with him charging into the MoM and the result is Sirius’ death. Children need guidance and protection, adults need partnerships and collaborations. Harry is not a child any more. Hermione perceived this before anyone else.

I love Hermione’s perceptions, but I love her sense of support and solidarity more. She is perceptive enough to know that Harry absolutely believes Sirius is being held in the Department of Mysteries, but SHE knows it is a trap. He is beyond listening to her cautions and she realizes this, yet she is able to get him to check to see if Sirius is at 12 Grimmauld Place. When he doesn’t see him, she knows Harry will go to the DoM and there is nothing more she can say to stop him. So, instead of leaving him to his fate, she walks with him, right into the trap.

If you notice in their exploits in the first three books, Hermione took a leading role, because she had information that no one else was able to obtain. Often, she was the one that coordinated the plan. I believe their collaboration in the formation of the DA, began a new dynamic in Harry and Hermione’s relationship. By the DoM scene in OoP Hermione has become a partner, lending her skills to their common cause. Even in his anxiety to get to Sirius, Harry acquiesced to Hermione’s expertise and ingenuity in marking the doors in the revolving room. I believe partnership will be the pattern in the subsequent two books, with Hermione becoming a full partner in both the planning and execution stages of their adventures. It certainly fits the flow of the narrative, and what I perceive as the ultimate ending of the series. We cannot forget that “Harry needs Hermione badly” (whether you ship H/Hr or not, he does need her help.)


On Ginny


Turambar said it best---

Posted by Turambar:
I'm afraid that list made my stomach churn. If JKR wants to put her hero with a character after emphasising that character's smallness, little girlness, weakness, dependency then that's her business. But I won't agree with it. Even the improved Ginny of OOTP showed a disappointing lack of initiative, an inability to question or think for herself and a willingness to hand over problems to males. Thank goodness Hermione's strength and intelligence have always been emphasised.
Here, here, with whistles!! :whistle:

This does NOT mean that Ginny cannot assume an important role in the next two books, but hiding a character's depth behind youth and innocence to suddenly spring on readers in a future relationship is just quite plainly bad writing. Thankfully, the extreme popularity of this device went out with the Victorian era. Pairing an exhaustively developed character like Harry with a relatively undeveloped mate quite simply cheats readers. I sincerely hope JKR is not going this route because I want to maintain my respect for her artistry.

On a redeemable Draco:

All I can do is second Daveydee, who got it spot on, IMO:

On the recent discussion concerning redeemable!Draco, I really don't see this happening. JK has alerted us to the fact that Draco is nothing more than a 'nasty piece of work', and I would be tempted to place trust in that remark of hers (for those seasoned quote-sceptics). I do think that she was genuinely alarmed at the girly fan base (no doubt considerably influenced by the Felton factor) that Draco seems to have been attracting. I see Draco ending up as a rather sad and pathetic figure full of resentment at how things turned out, but not contrite and in search of redemption.

Cheers!
Nia

Now I see no difference in Hermione's excitement towards neither of the gifts....

You don't see a difference between "how unusual" and "thanks for the book, [title], Harry, I've been wanting it for ages!"? I feel there's a definite imbalance in the way Hermione thanked both boys for the things they'd given her for Christmas, and I do think she liked Harry's gift better. It's a book, she likes books, and Harry has apparently listened to her well enough to know the title of a book she'd been wanting for "ages".

Not one of the H/Hr has showed anything more than friendship, as I repeat, yet again...

And none of the R/Hr has given sufficient evidence for Hermione liking Ron back.

Hermione has showed interest in Ron, Ron has shown interest in Hermione, Harry never showed any more-tahn-friends interest on Hermione at all...

I disagree. I think Ron has shown interest in Hermione; Hermione has shown interest in Harry. And Harry? He hasn't shown interest in anyone at all, neither Hermione nor Ginny. I think that Hermione's got the advantage -- Harry knows her a lot better, they've got a deep, solid friendship, and there's a recurring pattern of them having adventures together.

Save for a few scenes, Harry and Ginny barely interact -- she's still Ron's sister to him and she apparently means so much to him he forgot one of the most important, horrifying moments of her life.

And, although I don't think Harry loves Ginny right now, you can't deny the connection, because if you don't see it, then we are not reading the same books...

Oh, please. I am denying the "connection" because there's no such thing. So I guess that yes, we aren't reading the same books, because in the books I'm reading, Ginny's barely a blip on Harry's radar.

Gily Ann:

Ain't funny how her bitterness that Ron doesn't ask her out flows out her pores! I think that's hilarious

Are we talking about Hermione Granger here? Brilliant, strong Hermione Granger? She's about the LAST person in the books I would expect to just sit back and wait for the guy to ask her out. This is just MHO, but I feel that if Hermione liked Ron (and I believe she does know he likes her), she would ask him. Or at least encourage him, which she doesn't. Where's the problem here? It's obvious Ron likes her. If she likes him back, why doesn't she DO something about it?

Where does Ginny says that she is a matchmaker or something along those lines. I don't see why Ginny needs to take charge on the duty of getting Ron and Hermione toguether. Why does she needs to get in the middle of it?

She doesn't, and I said no such thing. I was merely responding to the idea that Ginny was trying to get Ron and Hermione together, which is something I don't see AT ALL in the actual canon.

I don't feel that Hermione feelings are ambigous. I'm clear on what she sides on

Well, I suppose that's nice. I think her feelings are ambiguous and I also think that if they were as "clear" as you keep saying, then we wouldn't have to be arguing about it.

But clearly in OoP their friendship is being less than friendly. H/Hr friendship has a lot of troubles.

So when R/Hr argue it's a sign of love, but when H/Hr does the same it means their friendship's in trouble?

As much as JKR wants her character to be like Real life. This is literature not real life. Plot lines have to be solved and have a purpose.

But she *said* she was going to be realistic. And part of real life is having non-requited crushes or having relationships not work out (like Harry and Cho, or Ginny and Michael, and the vaugue Fred/Angelina from GoF went nowhere either). Canon now says that Ginny's given up on Harry. It happens. Ron could also get past his crush on Hermione.

Whew. Great posts everyone, from all ships involved. Can I just say this is one of the most civil, polite debating threads I've ever seen? It's a breath of fresh air from a certain other thread at another messageboard :D. I'm just in awe from the brilliant theories coming from all corners.

And none of the R/Hr has given sufficient evidence for Hermione liking Ron back.

Sorry, I can't let that go unanswered.

Only true if we overlook the fact that Hermione is clearly bothered by the fact that it's taken Ron 3 years to 'notice that she's a girl'. Also only true if we overlook the fact that Hermione invites Ron to ask her first 'next time there's a ball'. And if we overlook the fact that Hermione's is clearly jealous of Fleur's flirty behaviour towards Ron. And only true if we overlook the fact that Hermione is dissapointed that Ron is even 'worse than Harry' at spotting a girl's clear hints......

I sense the age old rebuttals coming.....

Wecome to the thread, BTW.

Perfume Scene :
====================
When I first read that scene, I was overjoyed. It was the ONLY scene that came to my obtuse mind as any sort of shipping in the book5.

When I read that R/Hr were claiming that it was a R/Hr scene, I thought they must be impling something else. I thought they would say that Hermione is overjoyed with Harry's present. That they'll accept but, will say that the way Hermione didn't react to Ron's perfume made it a R/Hr scene. But I never thought for the life of me anyone would think that Hermione wasn't overjoyed and extremely happy with the present. Even if they saw it as just a good present. Nothing romantic. Or even deeper.


Over Analysing:
=================
H/Hr shippers here, on Portkey's own debate forum, and on SQ and on FAP have been accused of perhaps reading too much into the subtext instead of taking somethings at face value. I don't think that is the case with the H/Hr side. We do analyse the text to death. We have this zeal to read JKR's writing and find the hidden depth in her writing. And JKR herself encourages this .

JKR was asked if Harry and Hermione are to date. I'm paraphrasing, Do you think they're suited?

JKR didn't answer it. She told us to go and look for clues.

Taking things at face value has a bad way of surprising people. I took James Potter to be like Harry's dream. He was a rascal as it turned out. But he was a decent man. He had to be turn the mind of a girl who reallly disliked him for his behaviour. I was surprised when Sirius turned out to be the innocent one. I loved moody in book4. but was surprised. I took Snape as evil in book1, I was surprised. Putting it simply, I do take the books in thier face value, and then have to go and read my friend's analysis. They are far better than me in finding clues, explainging things that make sense to me.

I was a R/Hr shipper a while. I'm still a partial Harry/Ginny shipper, though now it's mostly H/Hr/G :D


Anyway...

I just wanted to say these things.

Dom : Wonderful posting :)

Thanks Mike, Nia.
Prongs: You seem bothered by my use of the word "list". Don't be. I simply meant the list of text quotes you put together and put together well.

Posted by Fairydust

If you indeed see Ginny that way then that's your interpretation and your opinion. Ginny was a totally kickass in this story. Many may disagree, but eh. I thought Ginny was kickass in this story.
She took initiative. She was the one to talk to Harry when he was feeling so down. She was the one who helped him. Tell me, why wasn't it Ron? Or at least Hermione who seems to be on such a wave length with him? Why didn't they, his two best friends, see that he was really down about something and try to help?


Me: You must be referring to the scene where Ginny offers Harry chocolate. Her mother has sent chocolate, including for Harry. So she's giving him some. She notices he's a bit preoccupied and asks him about it. He says he wants to speak to Sirius. She says she'll ask her brothers if they can think of anything to help.
1) Sorry, that isn't showing initiative. She's delivering chocolate.
2) She doesn't stop to wonder "is it a good idea that Harry wants to speak to Sirius?"
3) She doesn't try to think of any arguments to dissuade Harry.
4) Neither does she even TRY to come up with ideas to help him HERSELF.
5) Her only thought is that her brothers may be capable of coming up with a plan.
And BTW Hermione did notice something was wrong and tried to talk to him about it. At Christmas she doesn't at any stage try to knock on Harry's door to talk to him. It's left to Hermione to get him out of Buckbeak's room.
When Harry and Hermione are debating what to do about Harry's dream, the text says that even though she was struggling to understand what was going on she immediately volunteered her help. Why not find out what it's all about first? Why be so unquestioning? Why not contribute to the debate?
When the group of six arrive at the MOM, JKR writes that Ron and Ginny "marched in obediently". At the beginning Ginny says (I'm paraphrasing) that Bill doesn't like Snape as "though that settles the matter". Good enough for her.
On your point about Ginny's role in the chocolate scene: Hermione and Ron have far more interaction with Harry than Ginny so why not put Ginny in a couple of scenes with Harry to show she and Harry are getting on better as friends? Such scenes are dwarfed by the number of scenes which show Hermione's concern for Harry or his for her or the two being on the same wavelength.


Posted by Fairydust

An inability to question or think for herself? Are we reading the same stroy?

Me: No we probably aren't.


Posted by Fairydust

Willingness to hand over problems to the the males? She got help from them, yes. But did she actually just tell Gred and Forge the problem and leave it at that? I don't think so. But that's just my interpretation and opinion. And anyway, at least she tried to help. She wasn't the one that tried to stop him even though it was important to him.

Me: Well considering that Fred and George came over to Harry and said something to the effect "Ginny says you want to speak to Sirius" it's clear she was only the messenger. Isn't it interesting that both Ron and Ginny are Harry and Hermione's messengers in OOTP? There's nothing in the text to back up your contention. You are quite right that she wasn't the one who tried to stop Harry. Unfortunately, that isn't a plus for Ginny.

HMS. HArry Shouldn't be made to choose :D

I sense the age old rebuttals coming.....

Because people keep making the same points, you will get the old answers. When people post something new, lots of other things come into light. Daveydee, I can see you see them as ONLY R/Hr points. But those same points have been used in arguments as H/Hr points. Lots of people agree them being possibly having two interpretation. If you keep an open mind when the next time someone does the same "age old" rebuttal, you might see there JKR is wonderfully deniant :)

WE know you see the jealousy of Hermione as yours, we see it differently. We see Hermione having OTHER possible reason.

Non shipping : Does not like Dishonest Ron -- Ron lied by saying he helped. She does not like what Fleur stands for -- Fleur is a pretty girl using her beauty to reward the boys with a kiss. And the second one fits well with Hermione disliking Fleur from the beginning, before Ron took notice of her.

Shipping Reason : Harry saw her scowling AFTER he had been kissed, and when Ron wanted the kiss. While it can be argued that Ron was getting kissed, it could also be argued that Hermione was scowling after Harry got kissed, and had steam coming out of his ears.

If you wanted to not see our side, you won't. Our reasons for liking the couple aren't something trivial. We aren't stupid to only want this ship because we would like to see "Hero" and "heroine" get together. We do see the canon hints, even if you do not agree. These aren't hints picked up by fifteen people, there are hundreds, and thousands of us. I'm not saying numbers make it right, I'm saying they might have a valid point and I'm trying to get people to see that.

*sigh* I'm goign to rest. I made zero sense. I'm sure of it.

Thank you Nia

But I need on some points make it clear about the runes.


This is one of my favorite clues in OoP and it tightly fits the course of the narrative from book one. I do disagree somewhat with the course of the discussion which seemed to conclude that Hermione got the meaning wrong for the rune eihwaz, which looked like Harry’s scar. Actually, she got the meaning wrong for the rune, ehwaz, which looks like the letter M:


’How were the Runes?’ said Ron, yawning and stretching.
‘I mis-translated ehwaz,’ said Hermione furiously ‘It means partnership, not defence.’ I mixed it up with eihwaz.’
- OWLs, p. 715, US Edition

If she were focused on Harry’s scar, then she would have mixed it up with sowilu, which looks precisely like a lightning bolt and is even associated with Harry's sun sign. Have a look for yourself HERE
I don’t think there is any question that Hermione deeply cares for Harry and that she would do anything within her power to keep him safe.
She has been trying to defend Harry against outside forces as well as his own erroneous decisions since PS/SS, even to the point of appointing herself his personal guardian. My thinking is she did this because HARRY ALLOWED IT. Up until OoP, she has done it so often, she doesn’t begin to contemplate a different approach with him until his hostility demands she find a different way to help him.

I know this that if she messed up the two runes than it would be most lightly the one which looks really like a "S". But my point is that this is to comparing with astronomy missreading by Harry. There Harry does missread Venus. This say the Venus is now where Mars is and where the mars was is now the venus.

This say if Hermione looked at "eihwaz" as "ehwaz" than she did look at "ehwaz" as "eihwaz" too. This means if she look at a bolt she think at "patnership" and if she look at a "M" than defence.

About this essay. I think I have let out the points about the Weasley-family..

Anyway about this quote by JKR and a little girl this one is tricky. Because its not for GoF because its say he is now 14. This say in GoF is a "little" girl with who he is engaged with. Ginny can't be it because he wasn't engaged with her through all four books. These lead to Hermione. For the first time is she called "little" girl in this books and its Rita who call her that. Now JKR did speak with a journalist, right? And Rita based on what JKR knows about journalists. So if JKR says "little" girl its not the one who was constantly called this its the one who wasn't called this before. Its kinda ironie if you like what she says. Thats the point this girl isn't so "little" but someone did call her that. But Ginny is a little girl.

Are we talking about Hermione Granger here? Brilliant, strong Hermione Granger? She's about the LAST person in the books I would expect to just sit back and wait for the guy to ask her out. This is just MHO, but I feel that if Hermione liked Ron (and I believe she does know he likes her), she would ask him. Or at least encourage him, which she doesn't. Where's the problem here? It's obvious Ron likes her. If she likes him back, why doesn't she DO something about it?

Yes same Hermione Granger. I highly doubt that Hermione would go ahead and push a guy she likes to invite her. Cho does that, Hermione is a classy girl. I don't see her doing that sort of thing. She may be argumentative but that's not her style.

She doesn't, and I said no such thing. I was merely responding to the idea that Ginny was trying to get Ron and Hermione together, which is something I don't see AT ALL in the actual canon.

And I never said that Ginny wants to match them up. I said she wouldn't mind but from there to push a relationship between R/Hr is another thing. I don't believe that Ginny needs to get in the Middle of it. And as far as Cannon goes she has neve done so. I was merely responding to the comment of why Ginny doesn't say to Ron Who's Hermione's date for the Yule ball.

Well, I suppose that's nice. I think her feelings are ambiguous and I also think that if they were as "clear" as you keep saying, then we wouldn't have to be arguing about it.

I'm clear I keep on being here, out of pure kicks and to keep my brain on proper working functions.

So when R/Hr argue it's a sign of love, but when H/Hr does the same it means their friendship's in trouble?

I don't feel that the tone of the H/Hr fights were arguing or bitty bantering. I consider another thing that is no pleasant. R/Hr is a different idea.

But she *said* she was going to be realistic. And part of real life is having non-requited crushes or having relationships not work out (like Harry and Cho, or Ginny and Michael, and the vaugue Fred/Angelina from GoF went nowhere either). Canon now says that Ginny's given up on Harry. It happens. Ron could also get past his crush on Hermione.

I don't believe that Ron had a crush on Hermione. And yes Ginny had to give up her on Harry. That's also makes it real. Just when someone has given up on you then you start to like them! :p

And yes I'm sorry this is literature. I don't really believe that having two persons have feelings for another (while that one not returning it,) just to keep it real, makes a good story line. Plot line needs a purpose.

Gily Ann

Flying Phoenix:

I know this that if she messed up the two runes than it would be most lightly the one which looks really like a "S". But my point is that this is to comparing with astronomy missreading by Harry. There Harry does missread Venus. This say the Venus is now where Mars is and where the mars was is now the venus.

This say if Hermione looked at "eihwaz" as "ehwaz" than she did look at "ehwaz" as "eihwaz" too. This means if she look at a bolt she think at "patnership" and if she look at a "M" than defence.

I see what you were saying. :)

Nice job,
Nia

TREE GUARDIAN:

What I don't get is "I tend to think that if someone is sufficiently engaged in one of the books,.."

Engaged in this situation, does not mean "engaged to be married", it means "to involve oneself or become occupied". So if someone is involved by reading carefully the books, they won't think it a surprise when their hero holds hands with a "little girl".

Great post, Gily Ann!

Okay, she was reffering to the readers. Still, what book? Like I've said before, Ginny and Harry's relationship is slight, nil, little, almost non-exstistent. What exactly is JKR going to try and base a romantic relationship off of? Harry has a more likely chance of connecting with Luna than Ginny. Ginny and Harry have never had an understanding or conection about anything. Yes, there was the possession thing, but that has yet to make any difference in their relationship.

Perhaps JKR is going the way of the oedpidial. Otherwise I see a Ginny combo as pointless. H/G would mimick or play out James and Lilly. And as I've said before there are many oedpidial type of pairs possible in HP. Draco and Pansy, Ron and Hermione, and Harry and Ginny. I think there is a Neville one, but I forget who I made the pair with, I'm guessing Luna.

Anyway, there isn't one book or any book that gives hint to the fact that Harry is interested in Ginny or has a relationship with Ginny beyond the circumstantial. All clues that hint Ginny have to do with her likeness to Lilly and have nothing to do with her actual relationship with Harry. So Harry underestimates Ginny, so does everyone else. This fact seems to say that Ginny will show what she is worth and come out on top, but it doesn't suggest that Harry will fall in love with her because of it. Ginny is nice but great? What I mean by that is nice or great in her relation to Harry. It would be nice if Harry was the everyday average boy, but he is not. As much as he needs to be happy and have fun, he needs someone he can talk to and cofide in and sort things out with concerning those deeper and darker things in his life and in him. I find it quite plausible that Harry could do this with Hermione or Luna but not Ginny. I don't think Ginny and Harry are quite on the same page, like I've said in previous posts on this thread--on the bottom of my D/G posts. :)

Okay. Going to class now.

Ciao. ;)

FP:

Anyway about this quote by JKR and a little girl this one is tricky. Because its not for GoF because its say he is now 14. This say in GoF is a "little" girl with who he is engaged with. Ginny can't be it because he wasn't engaged with her through all four books. These lead to Hermione. For the first time is she called "little" girl in this books and its Rita who call her that. Now JKR did speak with a journalist, right? And Rita based on what JKR knows about journalists. So if JKR says "little" girl its not the one who was constantly called this its the one who wasn't called this before. Its kinda ironie if you like what she says. Thats the point this girl isn't so "little" but someone did call her that. But Ginny is a little girl

Why are JKR's quotes always tricky? Perhaps, she simply means what she says. JKR seems to be a woman of integrity and, as she has said that she will not outright lie in interviews, I'm going to take her word on it.

Regarding "engaged" in this quote, it does not mean engaged to be married, it means to be occupied or involved in. It means a person who is involved reading the books, i.e. a careful and observant reader will not be surprised if, at some point, his hero holds hands with a little girl. The only time qualifier on this quote was "at some point". So, unless you can prove that Hermione is the "little girl", I think you can concede that this quote points more in the direction of H/G.

TURAMBAR:

Prongs: You seem bothered by my use of the word "list". Don't be. I simply meant the list of text quotes you put together and put together well.


No, I wasn't upset by it. It is a "list", as you say and I hope your stomach feels better after my "stomach churning post". :lol:

Regarding Ginny's overall character development, I feel that JKR has hidden Ginny as Harry's love interest by hiding her as a little girl and not being old enough to with Harry. In book 5, when Ginny has a larger part, she amazingly has Ginny "over" Harry, also another clever means of hiding her as the love interest and classic misdirection.

Ginny has been developed in great detail and we actually know more about her than Hermione. Her family background has been developed extensively; we know about some of her interests (love for animals and Quidditch); we know a lot about her personality (both good and bad traits); her romantic feelings have also been written about (in more detail than is necessary for a "random character"). Harry does not have romantic feelings for Ginny, yet, but JKR has certainly laid out the foundation and there are two books left to write in their romance and make it believable.


Tree guardian: Let me break this down:

"Last time you met him, he was 13," Rowling said at a news conference at the British Library.

"He's 14 now and he's started to realize girls are quite interesting," she said. "I tend to think that if someone is sufficiently engaged (involved and occupied) in one of the books, (a careful and observant reader of Harry Potter) he's not going to be too disappointed if, at some point,(sometime in the future) his hero (Harry) holds hands with a little girl." (Ginny!)

Why are JKR's quotes always tricky? Perhaps, she simply means what she says. JKR seems to be a woman of integrity and, as she has said that she will not outright lie in interviews, I'm going to take her word on it.

Regarding "engaged" in this quote, it does not mean engaged to be married, it means to be occupied or involved in. It means a person who is involved reading the books, i.e. a careful and observant reader will not be surprised if, at some point, his hero holds hands with a little girl. The only time qualifier on this quote was "at some point". So, unless you can prove that Hermione is the "little girl", I think you can concede that this quote points more in the direction of H/G.

Because they are, like her books are tricky. I do judge her words from that what I know from her writestyle and in such case her writestyle is tricky. This do I believe since book1 as Harry did missinterpret Snape and in PoA I get the first time the hint that nothing is how at the first sight seem to be. Like that Hermione did hear her future self running through the hall. It was written but nobody did pay attention to that.

About "engaged" I know its not married and I did never say it or use it in this way. But to be involved with someone need it more as a girl what turns in COS up and vanish again till GoF chapter unexpected task. Thats kinda much to expect from me to think thats involved. The only girl which is involved with Harry through all books is Hermione and she was called "little girl" in GoF as Harry was 14 so its fit really well. Its not say that it has to be Ginny because she was describe as little girl. Its an ironic joke to say "little girl" and in reallity this girl isn't that little only a journalist in HP did say this. Its funny really because its not lied not in the slightest like all her quotes aren't lies if H/Hr happens Its just a way to understand stuff.

EDIT: By the way from JKR POV is Hermione a little girl if you believe it or not. She is because she is a younger form off JKR. So well she is little. A 14 year is always a little girl to 37 year old. Off course Ginny is a lot more little :lol:

Tree guardian: Let me break this down:

"Last time you met him, he was 13," Rowling said at a news conference at the British Library.

"He's 14 now and he's started to realize girls are quite interesting," she said. "I tend to think that if someone is sufficiently engaged (involved and occupied) in one of the books, (a careful and observant reader of Harry Potter) he's not going to be too disappointed if, at some point,(sometime in the future) his hero (Harry) holds hands with a little girl." (Ginny!)

I understood that thank you, hence:
Okay, she was reffering to the readers.

And yet I would still be disapointed, because thus far, Ginny and Harry's relationship is less than interesting. Luna's connection with Harry is much more interesting than anything Ginny and Harry have done in the past 5 books. (I'm including OotP.) The things Ginny does seem to have little to do with Harry. Like I said in my D/G posts.

I have read the books quite carefully, and like I've said before, I do see the possible hints and ties between Harry and Ginny, but nothing that is direct cause of their relationship, because their relationship is slight. So, even though I would not be surprised in a textual sense or simple literary sense, I would be disappointed because thus far it would seem like bad writing... to me. But it would be good enough writing, just not excellent. Unless by some miracle JKR cooks up a good story/plot behind H/G that would seem believable, which is quite possible...

And never-the-less H/G still reeks of oed. and his pidial ways.

:)

Thanks Nia and nappa32and :welcome: Dom! I think I've read other posts of yours in other places, yesterday but now I say "hello." :)

Everyone Great Posts! :clap:

Posted by Prongs, Sr.:
Why are JKR's quotes always tricky? Perhaps, she simply means what she says. JKR seems to be a woman of integrity and, as she has said that she will not outright lie in interviews, I'm going to take her word on it.

Hi, Prongs, Sr.,
I don't think JKR's quotes are always tricky. Sometimes she is quite straightforward. At these times she is telling us things that need to be clarified or that can be clarified without compromising the narrative. For example, a while back I quoted JKR as saying Harry was an "old soul." A couple of posts back, I cited JKR as saying that The Little White Horse influenced the Harry Potter books more than any other. But if you look at things from JKR's perspective, she could not justify giving away critical plotting points to her readers when she is in the middle of a tremendously popular septology. Why would she tell us that this pair or that pair has no chance whatsoever, when she is fully aware of all the speculation? It is like a filmmaker giving away the major points of a mystery before the film even comes out. Why should she do that even if the ship is not to happen? If she eliminates enough ships through commentary, then people would know what was going to happen and could, perhaps even predict that ' ending no one has guessed yet.' She would lose readership. It would be a supremely stupid thing to do--roughly comparable to 'shooting oneself in the foot.' It is the questions--all of them, that keep us reading and keep us guessing. The fact that all of us are still interested in these discussions is proof positive that she has done a masterful job of hiding the clues. We simply do not know what is going to happen, none of us, and JKR wants it that way. I know I would were I writing these books.

Prongs, Sr.,
The only time qualifier on this quote was "at some point". So, unless you can prove that Hermione is the "little girl", I think you can concede that this quote points more in the direction of H/G.

I know you get really tired of us saying this, but there is nothing conclusive in this quote--nothing. From my adult's perspective, all of my female students are 'little girls,' even though some of them are taller than me and quite brilliant. From JKR's perspective as a writer, she has to view the characters in her story as young people otherwise, like a teacher who tries to make buddies out of kids, she will lose her perspective. I think Davedee was right, to a 34 year old, any 14-year-old seems like a 'little girl.'
And my favore quote on this subject: from Flying Phoenix--

By the way from JKR POV is Hermione a little girl if you believe it or not. She is because she is a younger form off JKR. So well she is little. A 14 year is always a little girl to 37 year old. Off course Ginny is a lot more little :lol:

Prongs, Sr.,:


Ginny has been developed in great detail and we actually know more about her than Hermione. Her family background has been developed extensively; we know about some of her interests (love for animals and Quidditch); we know a lot about her personality (both good and bad traits); her romantic feelings have also been written about (in more detail than is necessary for a "random character").

Really? :huh:

I do know that H/G shippers absolutely love Ginny, but to say we know more about her than Hermione is, I think, more than a tad inaccurate, to say the least.

We don't know what Ginny's favorite class is, or what subject she is best at.
We don't know if she has a favorite teacher
We don't even know if she is a good, bad or indifferent student.
We don't know what books she likes or even if she likes books.
We don't know if she currently has a pet, and if she does, what that pet's name is,
We don't know who her roommates are or what the other students think of her. We don't know if she is a popular student or quiet in school since we've only seen her going off with classmates at the start of term
We don't know if she is intuitive or takes things at face value.
We don't know how she prettied up for the Yule Ball, or even if she did.
We don't know if she thinks on her feet, because we haven't seen her in any situation where she has to do that.
We don't know how she feels about house elf enslavement or even if she has any political passions,
We don't know how she feels about the Daily Prophet articles in Goblet of Fire
we don't know how much being poor really bothers her, how she feels about her Dad's job at the Ministry, or what her views on current wizard politics are.
We don't know if she can play wizard's chess
We don't know how she would have handled the Devil's Snare problem enroute to the Philosopher's Stone
We don't know if she would have had a clue about Nicholas Flamel
We don't know how she would have faired on Snape's logic problem in PS/SS
We don't know if she would have been able to solve the mystery of the voice in the walls only Harry could hear
We don't know if she would have been able to manage a time turner
We don't know if she could have thought up the Impervious spell to help Harry see in a thunderstorm
We don't know if she could have helped Harry learn a perfect summoning spell to save his neck in the first task
We don't know if Ginny could have taught Harry the four points spell for the final task in GoF
And most importantly of all,
We don't know if she has ever read Hogwarts, a History :lol:

And we know more about her than Hermione?
IMO, What we know about her now, is barely more than we knew about her in Chamber of Secrets


Cheers!
Nia

Harry and Hermione won't create a triangle. I know some say it does I disagree because for this we have to think Ron is deeply madly in love with Hermione and if she comes together with Harry. He is deeply hurt. Thats the wrong vision off this scenario. I don't think Ron is deeply in love with Hermione all what we have is a possible crush and for this only lightly hints for this. I doubt Ron'd feeling runs any deeper as Harrys to Cho. By now its quiet a time between book4 where Ron seems to get this crush the next book will be 6 this say somewhat about over a year is between this and as I know such feelings wear pretty off by tenager boys and Ron is describe as a normal boy so I can suspect its by him quiet the same like by his sister.
So if H/Hr starts there won't be a triangle. I don't see that.

I found Daveydee’s theory very intriguing except for Harry’s suicide at the end. That does not at all fit into what seems to be JKR’s world view. Her favorite books, The Little White Horse, Emma and some of the others she mentioned are uplifting and redemptive. It would fit perfectly if Kafka or Kierkegaard were writing the Harry Potter books, but only if. On the very surface existentialism does seem to have a place in Rowling’s thoughts, especially in the concept of subjectivity ethics, existential ontology and choice. Other than that, I cannot detect the presence of existentialist angst or nothingness or any of the other profoundly depressing aspects of this philosophy. Dying for a cause greater than oneself is noble, suicide is utterly cowardly and I can’t picture Harry ever taking the craven coward’s way out.
Yes that apsect of the scenario worries me too, Nia. It would be a great challenge for JK to write such a scenario without sending out the message that death is more preferable than life. Not impossible, though. I am guided in this belief in so much of what has been written in canon that is suggestive of the idea that death 'should not be feared', that the 'dead never really leave us', that 'to the well organised mind, death is but the next great adventure', in addition to much of what JK has said about the books in interviews - that 'the central theme is death', that she cannot comment on the 'religious aspects of the story until book 7 is out', and in the oft floated suggestion that Harry 'may not survive the series' (I have to wonder whether she is genuinely and sympathetically preparing her younger readers to accept the real possibility that the hero may die).

Anyway, all that is in many ways superfluous to the discussion here. It's just a theory. After all this is Predictions and Theories :whistle: . Oh look. No it's not. It's the Hall of Prophecy. All that is in many ways superfluous to the discussion here. It's just a prophecy. :D .

It really followed on from the crux of the this idea:


Harry and Luna as partners

I can see this on some plane of imagination, but, as a female, it really grates to think that JKR would write a meaningful relationship precipitated on pity. I see Luna as Harry’s guide into realms of thought that defy the rational, but a love interest of such magnitude that he’d commit suicide for? I’m sorry, but I cannot see that.
You chose the word 'precipitated' very carefully, I can see. Which is useful, because it allows me to make the observation that a meaningful relationship can be precipitated by many different things. The important thing is that it is subsequently built on firm foundations. It really doesn't matter what event gives rise to the rapport which ultimately leads to a relationship. One could argue a convincing case that Harry's relationship with Hermione was precipitated by his pity for her following Ron's 'no wonder she's got no friends' comment way back in PS, which subsequently lead to his feeling of guilt which ultimately took Ron and he to rescue her from the troll.

EDIT: I'm just going to quickly add here (because I anticipate a rebuttal on the grounds of there not being enough time to develop a Harry/Luna relationship) that by Book 7 there will probably have been more page space from books 5 - 7 as there is from book 1 - 4. It's entirely possible and realistic; they will have been acquainted for 3 years.

Yep, we know about as much of her in that regard as we know of Cho, next to nothing. That could still change though, with Ginny or Cho.

Great posts, Nia, FP, Turambar, Earendil, tree guardian, anyone else I missed, and Welcome! to all that have joined us.

On Ginny…

Prongs, it’s all good! Just pointing out that the occurrence did take place re: Hermione. As Turambar said, there is a pattern for ref’ing Ginny in this manner. However, as you say, it’s pretty obvious, so do you need to be a careful reader to note that? Or more so for the Hermione ref? Food for thought. Regardless, I think the ref as it applied to Hermione and the similar ref for Harry [for both, in GoF] is not flattering but is offensive. Similarly, whilst more neutral when applied to Ginny, it reinforces in my mind that she is not partner material for Harry. Though I think her dating Dean is brilliant and I think it quite possible that perhaps “little” Ginny will be the first to find true love [and not ‘fan love’]. Again, a little poetic justice for one previously overlooked for so long…



Harry and Luna as partners, vis-à-vis H/Hr…and as relates to theme, plot, and ending…

Nia
I can see this on some plane of imagination, but, as a female, it really grates to think that JKR would write a meaningful relationship precipitated on pity. I see Luna as Harry’s guide into realms of thought that defy the rational, but a love interest of such magnitude that he’d commit suicide for? I’m sorry, but I cannot see that.

You know, Nia, I do of course see loads of canon evidence for H/Hr throughout the series and love the idea of those two, particularly after getting a peek at Harry’s unconscious mind in OoP... And I love Hermione’s ingrained passion for social justice [one facet of unconditional love], because she gets this aspect of ‘why we’re here’. And compassion cannot be the sole basis of a relationship of equals, for certain. There would have to be more. However, I did note Luna’s ability to reach Harry at the end of OoP and remind him of that humanity he’d earlier sought to deny and think this one of the key scenes in the series to date [IMO], the others being the Mirror [PS/SS] and 2 others in OoP: Hermione bringing Harry back from the edge, back to the light [No. 12 scene], and Harry bringing Hermione back from the edge, back to life [DoM scene, my interpretation] – IMO Harry is unconsciously already using the power beyond all others here but doesn’t realise. So OoP is by far the most critical book thus far, IMO, along w/PS. And Luna being in one of those scenes has always seemed significant to me, continually forcing me to look at Luna more closely.

I too have always felt that Luna will be critical in helping Harry unlock the key to his heart and that power he possesses above all others. I have always seen Luna in the role of spiritual guide and a source of unconditional love, in addition to probably playing an ever more important role in Harry’s DA. Total acceptance, tolerance, and faith in one another are other critical aspects of unconditional love, along with who we really are and what’s really important in the larger scheme of things [DoM mysteries of life], and Luna gets these aspects of ‘why we’re here’. However, it’s true as well that Harry can learn a lot about love from giving and receiving love unconditionally, from whomever. I do think that Harry and Hermione already feel an unconditional love for one another and it’s probably already beyond that, whether they admit or not. But there is a great deal Harry can learn from Luna. Not that Harry will be paired up with Luna, necessarily.


EDIT: But he could be paired with her. It's a conceivable possibility. Daveydee, whilst I hope neither Harry nor Luna dies [!!!], you are correct in that there will likely be lots of page space, or 'stage time', in the next two books. And yes, they will have known each other three years, at a time when they have reached young adulthood. Very interesting point, there.


In fact, if Harry is to date casually before finding ‘the one’, I rather hope Luna’s out of that loop and is not tossed aside ;) And she seems to favour Ron more at present…though she is a hard one to pin down. But Luna represents spirituality, unconditional love/connection with the source of DoM mysteries [inner sanctum], transition [gateway, or arch, representing passage], and the unconscious mind. So, I figure she is extremely critical. Perhaps she is like Harry, a source of unconditional love , and so she can show him The Way [will] to power [the Infinite Light, or the force of unconditional love]. If Hermione is to be Harry’s partner, then I see that she would be the source that sustains and renews his Light.

noddwyd spotted something in that mistletoe scene…was Luna trying to look out for Harry? Arguably she did this at other times in OoP, as well, by lending her support [first to publicly support Harry, helped get his story published, assisted with the others re: Sirius @Umbridge’s offc., and at the DoM as well] no questions asked. Luna has an implicit faith in Harry, though she did in Ron re: quidditch as well, and he wasn’t nearly such a sure thing on that! Interestingly, whilst Luna seemed to fancy Ron re: quidditch and the train scene, she arguably did a lot more to support Harry – though of course, Harry has more going on. I’m not sure whether Luna will be paired with anyone, but I agree with you in that she is surely going to play a large part in Harry’s discovery of his powers and how to wield them against the forces of darkness.

There’s no doubt Hermione has been there for Harry at every step as well, and clearly she too has risked her reputation and her life for him. Hermione has the edge, for certain, because she’s been there for Harry for 5 yrs and she’s a part of his life, to the point that she’s in his head or he’s tapping into her brain, whichever, ;) and he thinks on her constantly by book’s end. So, re: pairing, I do still favour H/Hr, of course, but I think that Luna has some important things to say and show to Harry on the topic of unconditional love, deriving from her intuitive knowledge of this central mystery. IMO this topic will not only be key to Harry’s understanding of the other DoM mysteries [death, fate, time, etc.] and his power beyond all others, but of his heart [and what lies beneath…e.g., Hermione?…] as well.

And, whilst I don’t agree with Daveydee’s hypothetical ending for Harry, either, it’s therefore possible that he is correct re: Luna, though I’d like to think she survives and [assuming H/Hr] saves Ron from the dark side as well, or perhaps ends up with a worthy 3rd party altogether... I grant it’s possible, Daveydee, though very disturbing to me personally, and I have to hope that JKR will make use of unconditional love to sustain Harry so that he may sustain the world rather than leaving it. I think this probably depends on whether she uses a traditional Christian allegory [LOTR, Narnia, or similar] or whether she goes for an esoteric [cyclic nature of good and evil, light and love must constantly struggle against darkness and evil] allegory, which could also be viewed as a postmodern one. We’ll see…

I think what I’m trying to say is that even if Luna ends up with Ron [etc], Luna could love Harry unconditionally regardless; it just seems her character, probably because whilst she hasn’t known Harry long, she is intuitive and knows Harry at some deep level for who he really is, just Harry, and that he is a powerful force for good as well. Thus she is willing to risk her reputation and even her life on his behalf, and on behalf of his cause. I think Harry could love her unconditionally, as well, and not necessarily in a romantic way. So I think Luna will be a presence almost regardless and I almost don’t really have to consider H/L one way or the other. Though if H/Hr doesn’t happen for some disappointing reason, this is the only other character who seems deep enough to really understand and potentially connect with Harry, aside from Hermione. Thereby keeping the theme of the redemptive and transformational power of love central to the theme. I generally agree with the other members of Harmony re: Ginny in that it still appears she could not yet take part in a relationship of equals with Harry, IMO. For certain, Ginny in no way parallels the Little White Horse heroine excepting the red hair, and she and Harry have had very little ‘screen time’ together where both were conscious. I’ve been saying all along that her red hair is a ‘red herring’ ref to Lily! Perhaps in Book 6 we’ll see if I have to eat those words…And I can’t speak for Turambar but yes, Fairydust, Prongs, it’s always something I ate -- but that’s OT :lol:…



[b]Nia

On the Runes discussion:
This is one of my favorite clues in OoP and it tightly fits the course of the narrative from book one. I do disagree somewhat with the course of the discussion which seemed to conclude that Hermione got the meaning wrong for the rune eihwaz, which looked like Harry’s scar. Actually, she got the meaning wrong for the rune, ehwaz, which looks like the letter M:
’How were the Runes?’ said Ron, yawning and stretching.
‘I mis-translated ehwaz,’ said Hermione furiously ‘It means partnership, not defence.’ I mixed it up with eihwaz.’
- OWLs, p. 715, US Edition

If she were focused on Harry’s scar, then she would have mixed it up with sowilu, which looks precisely like a lightning bolt and is even associated with Harry's sun sign. Have a look for yourself HERE
I don’t think there is any question that Hermione deeply cares for Harry and that she would do anything within her power to keep him safe.
She has been trying to defend Harry against outside forces as well as his own erroneous decisions since PS/SS, even to the point of appointing herself his personal guardian. My thinking is she did this because HARRY ALLOWED IT. Up until OoP, she has done it so often, she doesn’t begin to contemplate a different approach with him until his hostility demands she find a different way to help him.

Nia, I like this clue as well, in particular when combined with the Astronomy Practicals mixup by Harry, and I agree that Hermione was not necessarily focused on Harry’s scar per se. I think in her studies, she confused the spelling of the runes, because when she thinks on Harry, she thinks ‘partnership’. Upon reflection, the actual shape of the rune could have had very little to do with it. If she did think on it the shape of the rune in connection with Harry, she nonetheless associated the ‘wrong’ actual meaning, because perhaps subconsciously she knows the ‘right’ meaning to associate with Harry [partnership] ;) and therefore keeps ‘forgetting’ the assigned meaning.

I really liked the philosophical refs as well, and am going to perk on that and come back to it...
GREAT post! and great posts! to ALL my fellow shipmates and travelers – and those on the opposite banks, as well!

NIA:

Why would she tell us that this pair or that pair has no chance whatsoever, when she is fully aware of all the speculation? It is like a filmmaker giving away the major points of a mystery before the film even comes out. Why should she do that even if the ship is not to happen? If she eliminates enough ships through commentary, then people would know what was going to happen and could, perhaps even predict that ' ending no one has guessed yet.' She would lose readership. It would be a supremely stupid thing to do--roughly comparable to 'shooting oneself in the foot.' It is the questions--all of them, that keep us reading and keep us guessing. The fact that all of us are still interested in these discussions is proof positive that she has done a masterful job of hiding the clues. We simply do not know what is going to happen, none of us, and JKR wants it that way. I know I would were I writing these books


I believe JKR is doing a wonderful job at hiding clues - H/G; I believe the interaction for R/Hr is more obvious, even though I don't particularly ship the pair. My interpretation of her "obvious" interviews that de-bunk H/Hr is that she simply has no intentions of writing the pair as romantic partners and, thus, she doesn't feel it is necessary to hide anything. We won't know until the end, of course, what her true intentions were in regards to interviews.

know you get really tired of us saying this, but there is nothing conclusive in this quote--nothing. From my adult's perspective, all of my female students are 'little girls,' even though some of them are taller than me and quite brilliant. From JKR's perspective as a writer, she has to view the characters in her story as young people otherwise, like a teacher who tries to make buddies out of kids, she will lose her perspective. I think Davedee was right, to a 34 year old, any 14-year-old seems like a 'little girl.'

I disagree and feel that the quote is fairly conclusive. Ginny has been consistently described in this manner and no other female character has been given considerable characterizations of this type. I would like to add that other quotes such as:

Poor Ginny, languishing in love for Harry, and he's merrily asking out other girls right under her nose! But that's just a boy thing.

This quote, also enhances H/G, in my opinion. JKR lists Harry not noticing that Ginny is languishing in love as one of Harry's flaws and failings. This has not been resolved yet and I feel, that we will see a resolution - Harry returning Ginny's feelings.

I do know that H/G shippers absolutely love Ginny, but to say we know more about her than Hermione is, I think, more than a tad inaccurate, to say the least.

You are correct! We do love Ginny. I think some of us can relate to Ginny on a personal level (unrequited love) and would like to see Ginny get her man. Of course, there are so many different reasons that I like Ginny and H/G, besides the above. I feel that they have compatible personalities and interests. The scene in the library merely confirmed my beliefs that Ginny can be the emphathetic listener and support that Harry needs emotionally.

In respect to your question, I think we have a great knowledge of Ginny, considering she is in a different year and doesn't take classes with Harry, especially her family background. I am disappointed in JKR, as far as Hermione's family development. I would like to see Harry go to the Grangers, but it doesn't seem like we will get to do that, as JKR said recently that the Grangers were "boring". It would be very realistic for Harry and Ron to visit their best friend's family.


Evaluna:

Prongs, it’s all good! Just pointing out that the occurrence did take place re: Hermione. As Turambar said, there is a pattern for ref’ing Ginny in this manner. However, as you say, it’s pretty obvious, so do you need to be a careful reader to note that? Or more so for the Hermione ref? Food for thought. Regardless, I think the ref as it applied to Hermione and the similar ref for Harry [for both, in GoF] is not flattering but is offensive. Similarly, whilst more neutral when applied to Ginny, it reinforces in my mind that she is not partner material for Harry.

Are you suggesting that H/G is obvious, Evaluna? Are you suggesting that perhaps, JKR could be implying that Ginny is the "little girl" in the disputed quote? If so, how does holding hands with Ginny help a romance with Hermione?

Great post evaluna and everybody else off course.

I agree in some parts with your post but I doubt Harry/Luna though there is a possible actuelly a higher one as for Harry/Ginny but this has something to do that Luna is more deeper in this story but that is just me.
I wanted write my thinking about Luna. For me is it H/Hr whats going to happen this is after OotP like that. Now which part plays Luna? She is the anti!Hermione thats important because I think in some place Luna will replace Hermione. I don't say Luna will in any case reach Hermione but I say she bring light into some points. Hermione is a girl who is more rational but this trio need someone who is in a weird way irrational. By Hermione is it only in comparing with Harry where she act irrational. But Luna is this always. She act after that what she feels right now. Isn't she interest than she is it. If she like Ron than she do it. If she want be closer to Harry than she do it. Thats why she seems weird but she isn't it really. She simply does what she feels. About the mistletoe I doubt she ever thought off kissing Harry. Its rather Harry had fears what she might do.

Like I said Luna with her strange thinking can bring Harry to some interesting questions and to this does count Hermione. Because Ginny is unlikey who say something in this way but Luna? Thats the right girl to solve some tension and this we will in book6

Prongs:
No, I wasn't upset by it. It is a "list", as you say and I hope your stomach feels better after my "stomach churning post".

It's well recovered, thanks. :D Nice posts today people.

I thought, by now, everyone would have noticed that everything happens in the HP books for a reason....
Hermione hasn't shown any feelings for Harry, I think 5 years later Harry would have noticed something about it if she's that much of a part of him....

Evaluna:
Quote:
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Prongs, it’s all good! Just pointing out that the occurrence did take place re: Hermione. As Turambar said, there is a pattern for ref’ing Ginny in this manner. However, as you say, it’s pretty obvious, so do you need to be a careful reader to note that? Or more so for the Hermione ref? Food for thought. Regardless, I think the ref as it applied to Hermione and the similar ref for Harry [for both, in GoF] is not flattering but is offensive. Similarly, whilst more neutral when applied to Ginny, it reinforces in my mind that she is not partner material for Harry.
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Are you suggesting that H/G is obvious, Evaluna? Are you suggesting that perhaps, JKR could be implying that Ginny is the "little girl" in the disputed quote? If so, how does holding hands with Ginny help a romance with Hermione?

Prongs, err...no, I'm not suggesting that [surprise!] My point was that since you'd rather nicely pointed out that the clue pertained to 'sufficiently engaged' readers [I liked that bit], or, careful readers, that, as you'd said in an earlier post, the clue pertained to the not-so-obvious "little girl" reference, or at least that's how I understood it. For me, constantly referring to Ginny as a "little girl" or similar is the obvious ref, whilst referring to Hermione once or twice as a "little girl" or similar is the less obvious ref to the "little girl" w/whom the hero will hold hands.

Flying Phoenix, yeah I do agree Hermione is the more likely partner from canon to date. Though I think Luna will be important, regardless, but...I also think Daveydee [re: page time and three years, plus some but not all of the symbolic links between Harry and Luna] and noddwyd [outstanding post on esoteric merits of Harry and Luna], and sone could be on to something as well. I hope we discuss further on this!

I also need to review Nia's bit on philosophical inputs, though that may not affect pairings but rather more the final ending.
Cheers one and all!

Hi everybody! Gigantic post coming… This is finally my theory about a Ginny/Neville ship. Hawk92, I didn’t read your post about it (do you have a link for it?), and I’m sorry if I’m repeating anything you’ve already said.

But… I've been thinking about it for days and suddenly it made perfect sense to me.

I guess the reason why Ginny's character have been so fully developed in Ootp, with the inclusion of details about her normal behavior (masked previously due to her crush on Harry) and her rather frantic love life (I'm not bashing her - my 14-year-old cousin makes Ginny looks like a saint), can't be interpreted just as JKR setting the stage for a Harry and Ginny relationship.

If you come to think about it, you’ll probably notice that Ginny wasn’t the only character that has been "lurking" in the first four books to blossom as a three-dimensional character in Ootp. Neville has always been in the books (maybe a bit more actively than Ginny) and started reveling himself before… in GoF.

Here comes the speculation… well, I do believe that Neville will have a great role in the war and in the final battle. And… I also have the impression that Neville has been memory charmed. If you come to think about his behavior, he has all the symptoms. But, if this is true… what does he have to hide?

Of course, his parents were probably tortured in front of him. But he’s aware of it and had lived all the consequences of this act. Sometimes I wonder if Neville’s life is worse than Harry’s… I mean, after Harry started studying in Hogwarts, he started living… he made friends, he knew love (I’m not talking about the romantic one), he realized he could be good in something (Quidditch), he was successful twice in defending Voldemort…

Now think about Neville... he has always been ridiculed and abused. His grandmother obviously takes him for granted (and is a bit too overprotective, in my opinion). Snape and the Slytherins love to make his life hell. And he doesn’t have any real friends either...

But... if you pay attention to the DoM scene, he was actually the only one who stood until the end with Harry. He was incredibly courageous there. He forbade Harry from giving up the prophecy, even when his best friend had been seriously hurt. He didn’t give up defending Harry even when he wasn’t physically able to hex anyone. And he wasn’t even using his own wand.

More speculation coming… but I’m not really convinced that the prophecy is just about Harry. Of course, Dumbledore dismissed the possibility of Neville being the one mentioned in the prophecy because of that "marking as his equal" part… But it was never mentioned when this "marking" would occur. And... Why was it even mentioned that Neville was born in the end of July, then? Just to trick the readers? What’s her purpose in tricking us and taking it back just a few sentences later? Remember that Dumbledore proved in Ootp that he’s just human and… fallible. Also remember the interview where she stated that she had laid some clues in Ootp so that no one would feel deceived in the end…

I’m sorry if this sound too far-fetched, but there was one sentence in PS/SS that I could never really understand. It was the one when Harry said that his favorite part in his body was his scar.

Isn’t the scar the connection between Harry and Voldemort? And wasn’t Voldemort the one who murdered Harry’s parents? Of course Harry didn’t know it at that time, but this sounded so instinctual to me… And most of the times, our instincts are right…

I tend to believe that the scar was actually the result of the ancient magic Lily performed. This would explain the lack of a third Avada Kedrava at the Halloween night. Maybe the spell created a connection between Harry and Voldemort – we all know that Voldemort couldn’t be touched by Harry until he had his blood.

The point I’m trying to make is: in the final battle, I believe that the murderer of Voldemort might be Neville, not Harry. I’m not sure Harry will be able to perform an act of such hate, when he has always been driven and protected by love. In the other hand, if Neville were the one who actually vanquished the Dark Lord for good, he would live up to his parents’ fame and courage as aurors and prove everybody wrong…

So… returning to the shipping issue… In my opinion Ginny’s great development as a character in Ootp happened because she will be the key to trigger Neville’s change. Considering that Neville will be a great hero in the end, it’s not really fair for him to be with a girl only known by her crush on Harry Potter, right?

I think that Ginny’s main qualities: being fun, cheerful, adventuresome, popular (?) will be extremely favorable for Neville to blossom and succeed. Could you imagine how would he feel if a girl who dated two guys (Micheal and Dean), who is a star in the Quidditch team (?) and extremely funny CHOSE him as a boyfriend? I just see Ginny’s qualities adding up to Neville’s development.
In the other hand, I don’t see Harry and Ginny working for several reasons… For example, the fact that Ginny is fun really won’t make a difference for Harry because he’s already friends with the twins and Ron. Or the fact that she’ll be in the Quidditch team… Harry’s the best seeker Gryffindor has ever had… She won’t aggregate much…

Harry won’t really feel special if she chooses him, because he has had a crush on him for a long time… And most importantly: Harry is really impetuous. He’s not really rational when he’s in danger. Could you imagine what it would be if they dated? Her whole "encouraging-never-questioning" attitude would have probably killed Harry in a situation like he faced in the end of Ootp.

Well, that's it guys. I apologize if at some parts it sounded "incomplete"... English is not my native language and my vocabulary is poor. Sorry.

P.S. - And thanks for reading this long post. Please be nice, this is actually the first time I have the guts to disclosure my own crazy theories (and I’m feeling really embarrassed now).
P.S. 2 - Evaluna and everybody else that answered my question... thanks!

Great post Fabiana

Flying Phoenix, yeah I do agree Hermione is the more likely partner from canon to date. Though I think Luna will be important, regardless, but...I also think Daveydee [re: page time and three years, plus some but not all of the symbolic links between Harry and Luna] and noddwyd [outstanding post on esoteric merits of Harry and Luna], and sone could be on to something as well. I hope we discuss further on this!

Important? No doubt but love interess? I doubt. Its not I can't imagine this I can imagine a lot thing but anyway Its rather this would be strange If Harry and Luna happens.
Once I said that Harry don't see tree by all this forest well Luna is his guardian to see this tree with the name Hermione. If you like it literary her moon shine will shine in the darkness so he can find what he seeks and to his surprise it was always (5 years) right in front of his nose but it was to dark to spot it.

I thought, by now, everyone would have noticed that everything happens in the HP books for a reason....
Hermione hasn't shown any feelings for Harry, I think 5 years later Harry would have noticed something about it if she's that much of a part of him....

Uhhh, she do, she do thats the very point. I believe It was in the post kiss scene. Maybe I repost Mikes essay, eh?

Now think about Neville... he has always been ridiculed and abused. His grandmother obviously takes him for granted (and is a bit too overprotective, in my opinion). Snape and the Slytherins make his life hell. And he doesn’t have any real friend either...

But... if you pay attention to the DoM scene, he was actually the only one who stood until the end with Harry. He was incredibly courageous there. He forbade Harry from giving up the prophecy, even when his best friend had been seriously hurt. He didn’t give up defending Harry even when he wasn’t physically able to hex anyone. And he wasn’t even using his own wand.

I agree there this is the very different to Harry but I for once think Neville did get love from his Grany. But Its sometimes easier to live with a fantasie of parents which you never did meet as with they shadow though they insane.


More speculation coming… but I’m not really convinced that the prophecy is just about Harry. Of course, Dumbledore dismissed the possibility of Neville being the one mentioned in the prophecy because of that "marking as his equal" part… But it was never mentioned when this "marking" would occur. And... Why was it even mentioned that Neville was born in the end of July, then? Just to trick the readers? What’s her purpose in tricking us and taking it back just a few sentences later? Remember that Dumbledore proved in Ootp that he’s just human and… fallible. Also remember the interview where she stated that she had laid some clues in Ootp so that no one would feel deceived in the end…

Here starts where I think different this part was there to show the different between lifelines. To show the pity in this. Harry lost his family by Voldemort, Neville by DE's but they are alive. Harry did grow up without love though it did protect him in his veins. Neville did grow up to reach on day his parents but he couldn't yet. Harry is famous, Neville isn't though he is known as clumsy. Alone this makes sense for the prophecy-

I think that Ginny’s main qualities: being fun, cheerful, adventuresome, popular (?) will be extremely favorable for Neville to blossom and succeed. Could you imagine how would he feel if a girl who dated two guys (Micheal and Dean), who is a star in the Quidditch team (?) and extremely funny CHOSE him as a boyfriend? I just see Ginny’s qualities adding up to Neville’s development.
In the other hand, I don’t see Harry and Ginny working for several reasons… For example, the fact that Ginny is fun really won’t make a difference for Harry because he’s already friends with the twins and Ron. Or the fact that she’ll be in the Quidditch team… Harry’s the best seeker Gryffindor has ever had… She won’t aggregate much…

See at some points I think that JKR want that the reader learn some stuff like whats Loyalty, Friendship and love. To this comes that not only the hero have to be the right one for little Ginny its rather the one who had could been a hero if Voldi had chosen him but he didn't. This would indeed show Its not always the one at the first sight by Ginny and Harry were it like the first sight. By Neville and Ginny for sure not.
By Harry and Hermione isn't it by the first sight either. What's to learn its not always the one which we see at first you need to look deeper than that. This went through the whole books why not by shipping just the same? Than Neville isn't the hero, isn't Harry but he someone who don't ignore Ginny. Who is willing to take care. Ginny need this. Its about to be the nummber one and by Neville she would be the nummber one.

Fabiana, Flying Phoenix , nice posts. FP, I really like your bit on Ginny and Neville, re: Neville's character and what he has to offer. Fabiana, nice theory and I agree Neville will probably play a critical role at Harry's side, but do you think Neville capable of murder, even for a 'good cause'? Seems that would just feed Voldemort's darkness. Meaning if Neville kills, then, just as with Harry in this position, he would have taken that first [huge] step toward the dark side. The only way I could see it is if Neville were trying to defend his friends, but will the good old A.K. work on Voldemort, or couldn't he just possess some other body with his dark spirit? I don't know...but I could Neville sacrificing himself to save another or allow others to escape, and I could particularly see Neville doing this to save Harry.

Perhaps JKR is going the way of the oedpidial. Otherwise I see a Ginny combo as pointless. H/G would mimick or play out James and Lilly. And as I've said before there are many oedpidial type of pairs possible in HP. Draco and Pansy, Ron and Hermione, and Harry and Ginny. I think there is a Neville one, but I forget who I made the pair with, I'm guessing Luna.

Anyway, there isn't one book or any book that gives hint to the fact that Harry is interested in Ginny or has a relationship with Ginny beyond the circumstantial. All clues that hint Ginny have to do with her likeness to Lilly and have nothing to do with her actual relationship with Harry. So Harry underestimates Ginny, so does everyone else. This fact seems to say that Ginny will show what she is worth and come out on top, but it doesn't suggest that Harry will fall in love with her because of it. Ginny is nice but great? What I mean by that is nice or great in her relation to Harry.

What is the problem with Ginny being like Lily? I failing to see the issue here. James and Lily seemed to be a very loved couple. I always though that Harry was rather nice and notice a lot Ginny in CoS.

Because they are, like her books are tricky. I do judge her words from that what I know from her writestyle and in such case her writestyle is tricky. This do I believe since book1 as Harry did missinterpret Snape and in PoA I get the first time the hint that nothing is how at the first sight seem to be. Like that Hermione did hear her future self running through the hall. It was written but nobody did pay attention to that.

Yes but those are plot lines not romances. Those are two different things.

I do know that H/G shippers absolutely love Ginny, but to say we know more about her than Hermione is, I think, more than a tad inaccurate, to say the least.

We don't know what Ginny's favorite class is, or what subject she is best at.
We don't know if she has a favorite teacher
We don't even know if she is a good, bad or indifferent student.
We don't know what books she likes or even if she likes books.
We don't know if she currently has a pet, and if she does, what that pet's name is,
We don't know who her roommates are or what the other students think of her. We don't know if she is a popular student or quiet in school since we've only seen her going off with classmates at the start of term
We don't know if she is intuitive or takes things at face value.
We don't know how she prettied up for the Yule Ball, or even if she did.
We don't know if she thinks on her feet, because we haven't seen her in any situation where she has to do that.
We don't know how she feels about house elf enslavement or even if she has any political passions,
We don't know how she feels about the Daily Prophet articles in Goblet of Fire
we don't know how much being poor really bothers her, how she feels about her Dad's job at the Ministry, or what her views on current wizard politics are.
We don't know if she can play wizard's chess
We don't know how she would have handled the Devil's Snare problem enroute to the Philosopher's Stone
We don't know if she would have had a clue about Nicholas Flamel
We don't know how she would have faired on Snape's logic problem in PS/SS
We don't know if she would have been able to solve the mystery of the voice in the walls only Harry could hear
We don't know if she would have been able to manage a time turner
We don't know if she could have thought up the Impervious spell to help Harry see in a thunderstorm
We don't know if she could have helped Harry learn a perfect summoning spell to save his neck in the first task
We don't know if Ginny could have taught Harry the four points spell for the final task in GoF
And most importantly of all,
We don't know if she has ever read Hogwarts, a History

And we know more about her than Hermione?
IMO, What we know about her now, is barely more than we knew about her in Chamber of Secrets

Nia Do you mind if I have a go at this?

We don't know what Ginny's favorite class is, or what subject she is best at.

From Cannon it could be charms. Since her bat bogey hex seems to gain the admiration of the sick mind of the twins and the never impressed Ron. The quibbler has a charm if you do the test and turned upside down it gives you a charm. Which she was doing at the end of book 5. Another posibility is Hagrid class. She seems to have a really good hand with animals.

We don't know if she has a favorite teacher

Well Umbridge wasn't for sure. It's Hagrid most probably because she knew stuff that not even Harry knew. Besides she always defend him and she herself qualifies him as good teacher.

We don't even know if she is a good, bad or indifferent student.
She can't be that bad, with that bat bogey hex!

We don't know what books she likes or even if she likes books.

If she's friends with Hermione she must like them. Or at least tolerate them.

We don't know if she currently has a pet, and if she does, what that pet's name is,

No she doesn't has a pet as far as cannon goes but in the movie they apparently change that and put her a cat.

We don't know who her roommates are or what the other students think of her.

It can't be that bad since she was looked for when she got to Howgarts by other students.

We don't know if she is a popular student or quiet in school since we've only seen her going off with classmates at the start of term

Yes she is apparently popular or at least liked very much. In the beginning of GoF she was hailed by some fellow fourth years. She knows people from other houses and appears that people already know her name.

We don't know if she is intuitive or takes things at face value.

Most probably inuitive, remember in the DoM she guess it out that Harry wanted to go alone and leave them there. She was right about the doors closing for them to know where they came.

We don't know how she prettied up for the Yule Ball, or even if she did.

No we don't know. But overall and by Harry's descriptions she must be sweet to the eye at a least. Not for nothing she get the descriptions.

We don't know if she thinks on her feet, because we haven't seen her in any situation where she has to do that.

Ummm She gave up on Harry after the unexpected task because she knew thougt that Harry will 'never like her.'

We don't know how she feels about house elf enslavement or even if she has any political passions,

Wasn't she the one who sat down with Hermione do the hats? Perhaps she hates knitting because her mother does it, also. Remeber Ron hates the sweaters. But she doesn't avoids or lies to Hermione. On the contrary she is shown talking very much with Hermione, while she knits. She can't be that much against it. She just doesn't like that they call Hermione mudblood.

We don't know how she feels about the Daily Prophet articles in Goblet of Fire

She must probably knew they were lies. By what gives us in the beginning of OoP and first and most important because she was friends with Hermione by then. She probably knows more than we do.

we don't know how much being poor really bothers her, how she feels about her Dad's job at the Ministry, or what her views on current wizard politics are.

In the beginning of CoS it did bother her. By GoF we are shown that she is mending a book quietly with spellotape in front of everybody. She doesn't has a hissy fit in OoP when they mock about being borned in a barn etc.

We don't know if she can play wizard's chess

No we don't but what does this has to do with romance? Harry's lousy at it!

We don't know how she would have handled the Devil's Snare problem enroute to the Philosopher's Stone

That's because she was a year behind. Contrary to popular belief she didn't even flinch when Bella said about torturing her. Michael Corner seem to run into a few difficulties hexing her. She can't be that bad. I don't rememeber her having her a fit, crying or something along those lines over the death eaters in the DoM. I'll check my book later on and see acurately.

We don't know if she would have had a clue about Nicholas Flamel

But she wasn't in the school! How was she suppossed to help if she wasn't there? Honestly is this something against H/G!? :wow:

We don't know how she would have faired on Snape's logic problem in PS/SS
But she wasn't in the school! Didn't she figured out about the doors in DoM?

We don't know if she would have been able to solve the mystery of the voice in the walls only Harry could hear

I may be wrong but wasn't this the book that Ginny was being control and posessed by Voldemort? If Hermione was too busy in PoA and it's excuse on her behaviour. I think we should do the same on Ginny, shouldn't we? I think Ginny was too busy worrying with other things to be solving Harry's voices in his head. My best guess is that I'm going to get a reply saying that isn't the same. :whistle:

We don't know if she would have been able to manage a time turner

Honestly what does this refer to romance? But to give you some idea. Waters says that she is involved in the twins knowing the outcome of the QWC and I agree with him. She could be.

We don't know if she could have thought up the Impervious spell to help Harry see in a thunderstorm

What is this? I don't get it. Please explain.

We don't know if she could have helped Harry learn a perfect summoning spell to save his neck in the first task

Well if she can master something so good as a bat bogey hex perhaps not only can helped but could have done a perfect job. That is if Harry would have asked.

We don't know if Ginny could have taught Harry the four points spell for the final task in GoF
See above. She isn't that stupid.

And most importantly of all,

We don't know if she has ever read Hogwarts, a History

Well unlike Hermione, Ginny comes from a wizarding family. Perhaps not only she knows the history of Howgarts but can recite it like a poem.

BTW I found the part about the runes, FP what is your theory? I don't however see anything relating to romance there. I see a plot line there but I'm sure you will disagree! ;)

Gily Ann

Believe me, I read that section.

Apparently not; if you did read the passage, you obviously wouldn't compare "I've been wanting it for ages!" to "unusual" as the same thing.

And I'm not going to be providing evidence, when the evidence is already posted.

Where? *looks around* I'm particularly interested in knowing why *you* ship R/Hr or H/G

If one must never speak for the future..........then.......how come you ship H/Hr.

I'm speaking for the present, and IMO, H/Hr is possible in the future. ^_^

Theres no SOLID proof for them, besides their friendship...

IMO, their friendship *is* solid enough for a romantic relationship.

so I don't see what you are getting at...

I don't see what you are commenting on; all I'm pointing out is the difference between Hermione's enthusiastic reaction to Harry's gift as opposed to Ron's rather "unusual" one.

So wow!! You already know what's going to happen in the books......now that is funny.

Erm, when have I ever said that? But if you insist that I do have the powers of a seer, then thank you very much for the compliment.

Because you know things that haven't been proven in the books.

By that, I suppose you meant the christmas gift scene? I *do* know what Hermione wanted, because she *stated* that she *wanted* that book for ages. She never said anything about wanting a bottle of perfume.

Everyone can ship whatever they want, just don't claim things that aren't there, and I'm not referring to H/Hr...

I should say the same thing to you.

No Off course JKR isn't Austen. JKR is her Fan!
And how does this affect Harry Potter?


I would say copying it more like

You really have a high opinion of JKR don't you. Publically denoucing her originality...AND accusing her of plagarism.

Yes Hermione is closer in this book (IMO) to Ron. What does Ginny has to do on this? I'm still not getting where you are going.

Nope, she is NOT closer to Ron because when Harry and Ron were fighting, she didn't hang out with Ron. Instead, she ate breakfast with Ginny. Ron is supposed to be one of her best friends, and instead of sitting by Ron's side, she ate breakfast with his little sister.


Well the fact is that he did tell Ginny

He told her, and what does she do? Runs to Fred and George.

Well better yet. Let's say that it doesn't exist!

Sure, whatever you say.

So JKR is a lousy writter, I guess.

Apparently so, because you obviously don't think much of her when you stated that she is "copying" Austen. Looks like she has no originality of her own, does she.

I think that JKR has already done a wonderful job at foreshadowing OBHWF. It's all there.

What's all there?

The Weasley's are already a huge part of the books, they are essential to Harry.

Let's see. Bill and Charlie are mentioned briefly in the first book and don't make their appearance until GoF. Fred and George have always been here and there and don't contribute to the main plot. In fact, they serve as comic relief. Percy is the oddball that doesn't seem to be involved in anything important in the first four books.
Mr. and Mrs. Weasley is mentioned here and there, but isn't a part of the plot once they get to Hogwarts. Ginny has never been given more than one or two sentences in the previous books. Ron is the only Weasley that is a major part of Harry's life and serves as his bestfriend. Now I ask you, what is this major "importance" of the Weasleys. They're a nice family, and Harry loves them, but must he marry into their family? Nope.


Ain't funny how her bitterness that Ron doesn't ask her out flows out her pores! I think that's hilarious!

She's bitter because Ron doesn't ask you out? Hm...interesting...where did you get that? It seemed that she couldn't care less when she disregarded his gift as being "unusual."

Are you seriously suggesting that you have a better opinion on this books that I can have?

Wow...someone's ego is blowing skyward. Seriously GillyAnn, what is a "better" opinion? Are you suggesting that *your* opinion is above everyone elses'? I have never stated that my opinion is *better* than your's, but *you* on the otherhand, is going on and on about how utterly impossible it is for H/Hr. Need I to remind you that *your* perception does not have to be the truth. Keep your arrogance in check.

It's clear from my interpretation that Neville likes Hermione.

As Ana banana posted:

Everyone can ship whatever they want, just don't claim things that aren't there,

I see none of that. I only see a friendship. That's it, but not one going romantically.

But are you sure? You seem to be convinced that H/G is going to get together. Either you're JKR, or you're just terribly close-minded.

Cheers!

Polaris

You really have a high opinion of JKR don't you. Publically denoucing her originality...AND accusing her of plagarism.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: That was funny!

Nope, she is NOT closer to Ron because when Harry and Ron were fighting, she didn't hang out with Ron. Instead, she ate breakfast with Ginny. Ron is supposed to be one of her best friends, and instead of sitting by Ron's side, she ate breakfast with his little sister.

To your opinion maybe for me it's clear that she is. Actually she did sit with Ron. Remeber that Harry asked her if she had seen Ron and she told him that she had seen him at breakfast or something. She did explain to Harry how Ron felt. So I guessed that she did had breakfast with him.

He told her, and what does she do? Runs to Fred and George.

I'm missing the point here? I think it's called strategy.

Apparently so, because you obviously don't think much of her when you stated that she is "copying" Austen. Looks like she has no originality of her own, does she.

She has mimik other stories. Where did you think she got Cedric's story brought back? Besides what Austen and JKR did is one of the oldest trick in the book. That's not exclusive to Austen. We see it very often.

Let's see. Bill and Charlie are mentioned briefly in the first book and don't make their appearance until GoF. Fred and George have always been here and there and don't contribute to the main plot. In fact, they serve as comic relief. Percy is the oddball that doesn't seem to be involved in anything important in the first four books.
Mr. and Mrs. Weasley is mentioned here and there, but isn't a part of the plot once they get to Hogwarts. Ginny has never been given more than one or two sentences in the previous books. Ron is the only Weasley that is a major part of Harry's life and serves as his bestfriend. Now I ask you, what is this major "importance" of the Weasleys. They're a nice family, and Harry loves them, but must he marry into their family? Nope.

Mr and Mrs are not part of the plot? The Weasley's are not of mayor importance? Oh dear! H/Hr shippers need to take the Weasley's seriously. They are an essential part of the plot. JKR has said so they are her 'ideal family.' She is not going to make up her 'ideal' family to then destroyed it. I wouldn't doubt that the Weasley end up being desandants of someone. Not for nothing we get repeated that they are a pureblood family. Discounting them won't help the H/Hr ship.

She's bitter because Ron doesn't ask you out? Hm...interesting...where did you get that? It seemed that she couldn't care less when she disregarded his gift as being "unusual."

IYO

Wow...someone's ego is blowing skyward. Seriously GillyAnn, what is a "better" opinion? Are you suggesting that *your* opinion is above everyone elses'? I have never stated that my opinion is *better* than your's, but *you* on the otherhand, is going on and on about how utterly impossible it is for H/Hr. Need I to remind you that *your* perception does not have to be the truth. Keep your arrogance in check.

I seem to recall someone above mentioning the same thing. You seem to think that your opinion is above everyone else. Everyone else is wrong exept you.

But are you sure? You seem to be convinced that H/G is going to get together. Either you're JKR, or you're just terribly close-minded.

Perhaps I'm JKR! :p :rotfl: :rotfl:

Gily Ann

Evaluna:

Prongs, err...no, I'm not suggesting that [surprise!] My point was that since you'd rather nicely pointed out that the clue pertained to 'sufficiently engaged' readers [I liked that bit], or, careful readers, that, as you'd said in an earlier post, the clue pertained to the not-so-obvious "little girl" reference, or at least that's how I understood it. For me, constantly referring to Ginny as a "little girl" or similar is the obvious ref, whilst referring to Hermione once or twice as a "little girl" or similar is the less obvious ref to the "little girl" w/whom the hero is holding hands with

Sorry, I don't buy your explanation. One or two references to Hermione being called a little girl are hardly in comparison to Ginny's continuing references. I believe Fleur's little sister was also referred to as a little girl and do you really think there is likely-hood that Harry would end up with her? In my opinion, Ginny is the only girl who meets this criteria. Your explanation of the quote is another example of the general pattern of H/hrs suggesting that JKR is being tricky and misleading. JKR did not have to use the description "little girl", but she did. I feel that since she keeps emphasizing this in regards to Ginny that Ginny is the girl in question here.


Regarding the Weasleys;

JKR has stated, in an interview once posted here by Gily Ann, that they are here vision of the "ideal family". They are extremely important to Harry and the story, in general. I feel that JKR's continual, extensive development of them is because Harry will marry into that family. As I've said before, Ginny does not have to marry into the family for H/G to work, but on a symbolic level, it simply works. The Weasleys, I feel, have important contributions to make to the story; especially Arthur and Ginny, as they have personal reasons to fight respectively, Lucius and voldemort/Tom Riddle.

Another posibility is Hagrid class. She seems to have a really good hand with animals.


What for animals? I can't remember that there was any scene which support this.

Well Umbridge wasn't for sure. It's Hagrid most probably because she knew stuff that not even Harry knew. Besides she always defend him and she herself qualifies him as good teacher.
As Teacher or as friend? Because as teacher is Hagrid not the best.

She can't be that bad, with that bat bogey hex!
Well Neville was in nearlly all classes bad just not in herbology. This says not much if Ginny can a single hex very good

If she's friends with Hermione she must like them. Or at least tolerate them.
Ron don't like books and is friend with Hermione.

No she doesn't has a pet as far as cannon goes but in the movie they apparently change that and put her a cat.

Which movie? I can't remember that I saw ever a cat.

It can't be that bad since she was looked for when she got to Howgarts by other students.

If I understand you right she looked for other students. You mean this with Lovegood or? This isn't really an opinion, is it?

Most probably inuitive, remember in the DoM she guess it out that Harry wanted to go alone and leave them there. She was right about the doors closing for them to know where they came

This is just guessing If I remember right and this don't show a real path its one instance.

She must probably knew they were lies. By what gives us in the beginning of OoP and first and most important because she was friends with Hermione by then. She probably knows more than we do.
This isn't really a clue because Ginny did "gave up" probably because of the articles.

Honestly what does this refer to romance? But to give you some idea. Waters says that she is involved in the twins knowing the outcome of the QWC and I agree with him. She could be.


Who is Waters? I'm lost...
See above. She isn't that stupid.
She isn't that smart, either. She is Ginny and not Hermione. This say Hermione knows much, Ginny not but for this she has for sure other abilitys

BTW I found the part about the runes, FP what is your theory? I don't however see anything relating to romance there. I see a plot line there but I'm sure you will disagree

How did you guess? :rotfl: Anyway about this theory Its both I guess. Because Hermione does misread the runes, right? And Harry missread the planets. Off course its both plot and romance because this shows what will comes in book6 and it shows the past. I know, I know Its strange buts like that. Harry did misread venus with mars. This say he don't see the venus because he to much looking for the mars. Thats again shows that he still now didn't think about love. He is to much focused at Voldemort so he don't see her but he will because to misswrite the venus he need to see this planet. This leads to the runes again "Eihwaz" means defence and the tarot is "dead", "ehwaz" means partnership and the tarot is "the lovers". "Eihwaz" looks like Harry scar so Its logical to think Its easy to learn for Hermione. But she mess it up.

As she had to translate and this runes in front of her she didn't thought by "Eihwaz" which looks like Harrys scar not at defence but partnership. This suggest she compare Harry with partnership not with defence. But this "M" this another thing. Which words do come into your head By "M" ? Maybe "Mother". Wait this is now far fretched but this is interesting. Harrys "Mother" did defence him, right? Yeah. Now think Hermione speaks a lot about Harry (GoF) and does probably think alot about him. If than she did missread exact this two runes because her mind was in this times more as before by Harry. Than this say this two runes represent future and past, thats how this works with runes, "M" (mother) defence and "Eihwaz" future partnership. If we do strech it a little bit more than you can say that Hermione can save Harry only with partnership.

If you know how this works with runes than you know that you need to think at a person before you choice. There is a rune for the past, present and future.

Did this make sense? Somehow but far fretched, very far but it has some points.

We don't know what Ginny's favorite class is, or what subject she is best at.

From Cannon it could be charms. Since her bat bogey hex seems to gain the admiration of the sick mind of the twins and the never impressed Ron. The quibbler has a charm if you do the test and turned upside down it gives you a charm. Which she was doing at the end of book 5. Another posibility is Hagrid class. She seems to have a really good hand with animals.

Just because you're good at a class doesn't mean it's your favorite. Hermione's good at potions and her favorite class is Arithmacy.

We don't know if she has a favorite teacher

Well Umbridge wasn't for sure. It's Hagrid most probably because she knew stuff that not even Harry knew. Besides she always defend him and she herself qualifies him as good teacher.

Where are the passages where Ginny makes reference to Hagrid being her favorite teacher?

We don't even know if she is a good, bad or indifferent student.

She can't be that bad, with that bat bogey hex!

That's ONE spell.

We don't know what books she likes or even if she likes books.

If she's friends with Hermione she must like them. Or at least tolerate them.

Ron is friends with Hermione and he doesn't like books nor does he show much tolerance for Hermione's love of them.

We don't know if she currently has a pet, and if she does, what that pet's name is,

No she doesn't has a pet as far as cannon goes but in the movie they apparently change that and put her a cat.

In the PoA film you mean? Can you provide evidence or a link to this news?

We don't know if she is intuitive or takes things at face value.

Most probably inuitive, remember in the DoM she guess it out that Harry wanted to go alone and leave them there. She was right about the doors closing for them to know where they came.

Ginny didn't guess anything, she argued with Ron who told her she wasn't going to the DoM. And based on the library and OotF chapter scenes, it appears she takes things at face value.

We don't know how she prettied up for the Yule Ball, or even if she did.

No we don't know. But overall and by Harry's descriptions she must be sweet to the eye at a least. Not for nothing she get the descriptions.

And Harry's jaw-dropping description of Hermione means nothing huh? :whistle:

We don't know if she thinks on her feet, because we haven't seen her in any situation where she has to do that.

Ummm She gave up on Harry after the unexpected task because she knew thougt that Harry will 'never like her.'

How in the world is that thinking on your feet?! It took Ginny three years to get the picture that Harry doesn't like her. If anything, it proves she's slow to get the point.

We don't know how she feels about house elf enslavement or even if she has any political passions,

Wasn't she the one who sat down with Hermione do the hats? Perhaps she hates knitting because her mother does it, also. Remeber Ron hates the sweaters. But she doesn't avoids or lies to Hermione. On the contrary she is shown talking very much with Hermione, while she knits. She can't be that much against it. She just doesn't like that they call Hermione mudblood.

Ginny wasn't helping Hermione make hats, she was just talking to her. There was one pair of socks being knitted in the air in front of Hermione which means Hermione didn't really need Harry's help to knit because if she really needed the help, she would've gotten Ginny to help her when Harry turned her down. Hermione wanted to spend some quality time alone with Harry. :agree:

We don't know how she feels about the Daily Prophet articles in Goblet of Fire

She must probably knew they were lies. By what gives us in the beginning of OoP and first and most important because she was friends with Hermione by then. She probably knows more than we do.

How does she know? Is it stated or implied in canon that Ginny thinks Rita Skeeter is a liar?

That was funny!

I fail to see the humor in your critism of JKR, but then again, we all find humor in different things...

To your opinion maybe for me it's clear that she is. Actually she did sit with Ron. Remeber that Harry asked her if she had seen Ron and she told him that she had seen him at breakfast or something. She did explain to Harry how Ron felt. So I guessed that she did had breakfast with him.

Here, I'll give you a chronology

1) During the first walk around the lake, Hermione told Harry that Ron was jealous. She had not known that Harry and Ron were fighting, and it can be reasonably inferred that she went to breakfast and saw Ron acting jealous, then she packed up some toast and went to find Harry. :D

2) The time I'm referring to was the *second* walk around the lake. Hermione had been eating breakfast with Ginny, when Harry pulled her away to consult with her about the dragon problem. Ron was not mentioned at all in the scene, so you can't speculate that he was in Hermione's proximity. So again, my question is, why didn't Hermione eat breakfast with Ron? He is her best friend afterall.



I'm missing the point here? I think it's called strategy

Apparently, Ginny can't come up with her own strategy.

She has mimik other stories. Where did you think she got Cedric's story brought back? Besides what Austen and JKR did is one of the oldest trick in the book. That's not exclusive to Austen. We see it very often.

Be more specific please. I can't seem to understand what you're trying to say.

I seem to recall someone above mentioning the same thing. You seem to think that your opinion is above everyone else. Everyone else is wrong exept you.

First of all, I am not sure who will eventually end up with whom. It is possible that Hermione may end up with Ron, Neville, Colin, or Draco, but in my opinion, Hermione and Harry seems more likely. I haven't discounted other possiblities. I have not made any remarks that Harry and Hermione will definitely end up together, or that H/G and R/Hr are impossible. On the otherhand, you're the one who posted:


I see none of that. I only see a friendship. That's it, but not one going romantically

Let me ask you a question: Are you that convinced that H/G will happen and that H/Hr won't? Don't you have a shred of doubt in your mind that maybe Ron and Hermione wouldn't happen?



Furthermore, I have never belittled your opinion in saying that you're wrong or that my opinion is "better" than yours. To the contrary, you're you one who is suggesting that your opinion is better than anyone elses'. To you, anyone who has a different opinion just doesn't have a good grasp of the book as you do. You clearly meant this when you posted:

Are you seriously suggesting that you have a better opinion on this books that I can have?

Exactly what are you suggesting? Are you suggesting that people can't possibly have a different opinion than you or that their opinion is not as good as yours?

Lastly, my observations are supported by cannon, and if you find anything that seems illogical or unreasonable, please point it out, I'll be glad to justify my posts.



Mr and Mrs are not part of the plot? The Weasley's are not of mayor importance? Oh dear! H/Hr shippers need to take the Weasley's seriously. They are an essential part of the plot. JKR has said so they are her 'ideal family.' She is not going to make up her 'ideal' family to then destroyed it. I wouldn't doubt that the Weasley end up being desandants of someone. Not for nothing we get repeated that they are a pureblood family. Discounting them won't help the H/Hr ship.

They're important, and will be involved in the defeat of Voldemort, but as I've stated before, does Harry have to marry into their family? Nope.


Perhaps I'm JKR!

You know what they say: Dream Big... :p

JKR has stated, in an interview once posted here by Gily Ann, that they are here vision of the "ideal family". They are extremely important to Harry and the story, in general. I feel that JKR's continual, extensive development of them is because Harry will marry into that family. As I've said before, Ginny does not have to marry into the family for H/G to work, but on a symbolic level, it simply works. The Weasleys, I feel, have important contributions to make to the story; especially Arthur and Ginny, as they have personal reasons to fight respectively, Lucius and voldemort/Tom Riddle.

Thats kinda funny because the Weasleys are JKRs "ideal-family" Harry has to marry Ginny? I disagree to this because Harry is already a part like Mrs. Weasley said "As good as a son". Lucky Harry.

Sorry, I don't buy your explanation. One or two references to Hermione being called a little girl are hardly in comparison to Ginny's continuing references. I believe Fleur's little sister was also referred to as a little girl and do you really think there is likely-hood that Harry would end up with her? In my opinion, Ginny is the only girl who meets this criteria. Your explanation of the quote is another example of the general pattern of H/hrs suggesting that JKR is being tricky and misleading. JKR did not have to use the description "little girl", but she did. I feel that since she keeps emphasizing this in regards to Ginny that Ginny is the girl in question here.

But it makes perfect sense. Ginny is kind obvious you don't need to think much if JKR sais little girl. But by Hermione there you need to read GoF where she refer to and bingo "little girl". To this comes Hermione is JKRs little girl because she is after her like a daughter :D

To your opinion maybe for me it's clear that she is. Actually she did sit with Ron. Remeber that Harry asked her if she had seen Ron and she told him that she had seen him at breakfast or something. She did explain to Harry how Ron felt. So I guessed that she did had breakfast with him.

I guess Hermione didn't make breakfast because she did eat toast with Harry. Probably she did wait that Harry turns up and asked Ron. And he said just "Maybe he is by his phototermin" this all what she need to know that Ron is jealousy and that they had a fight.

GilyAnn, I think that the point Nia was trying to make is that we don't have as much conclusive information about Ginny as we do about Hermione. You made a number of educated guesses in regards to the doubts that Nia listed, and that's fine. However, they are nothing more than inferences. We KNOW that Hermione's favorite class is Arithmancy, because as readers we have spent enough time getting to know her character in the text and said text has explicitly stated so. We don't KNOW that Ginny's favorite class is Charms or CoMC because we don't KNOW much of anything concrete about her character.

However, if you wish to draw inferences based on minimal text, you are completely welcome to do so and no one is attempting to stop you. The point here is not to nitpick at insignificant details, but to illustrate a bigger picture here: the fact that we have such little conclusive information about Ginny as a character proves that, as of five books, she has played an extremely minor role in comparison to Hermione.

And finally, in the name of all things holy--Mike, is that EMMA WATSON in your sig? :wow: Someone cover up that child, fast! :no:

Did I say I ship H/Hr? I did or rather my post say it but anyway though I ship It I do think the Weasleys are a part of the major plot but this don't say they have the majority of time in books...


To Mike's sig I don't see anything wrong with it and believe me in the 80's I saw 12 years.... You could see much more legs, much more skin. Today I need only go out to see 12 or younger who run around and I know which underwear they wear or bra *wonder why". I doubt she shows to much. Its allright.

What for animals? I can't remember that there was any scene which support this.

GoF remember how she name Pig and he refused for his name to be changed. OoP when she lures out Crosshanks out from a dresser and throws corks at him. Thestrals she knew that Hagrid lured them with meat.


As Teacher or as friend? Because as teacher is Hagrid not the best.

Harry disagrees with you and so does JKR. And as a teacher remember that she told I believe it was Luna.

Well Neville was in nearlly all classes bad just not in herbology. This says not much if Ginny can a single hex very good

Well if she got the high aproval of the twins that makes good in my view. She also guess out correctly what kind of spell Hagrid used for the pumpkins in PoA.

Ron don't like books and is friend with Hermione.

Yes but he constantly complains about it.

Which movie? I can't remember that I saw ever a cat.

CoS her jumper was on the cat. Kind of a weird thing.

If I understand you right she looked for other students. You mean this with Lovegood or? This isn't really an opinion, is it?

No the other students looked for her.

This is just guessing If I remember right and this don't show a real path its one instance.

Ok so when Hermione does it is also guessing? Great I didn't know that. Hermione can't be the only one that know stuff in Howgarts. :whistle:

This isn't really a clue because Ginny did "gave up" probably because of the articles.

Where is it that it tells that she gave up on the articles? I can't remember the page.

Who is Waters? I'm lost...

Galadriel Waters. He wrote a book a couple of months ago there was an interview with him here.

She isn't that smart, either. She is Ginny and not Hermione. This say Hermione knows much, Ginny not but for this she has for sure other abilitys

So basicaly Ginny is dumb? This even though in cannon she is shown not to be.

How did you guess? Anyway about this theory Its both I guess. Because Hermione does misread the runes, right? And Harry missread the planets. Off course its both plot and romance because this shows what will comes in book6 and it shows the past. I know, I know Its strange buts like that. Harry did misread venus with mars. This say he don't see the venus because he to much looking for the mars. Thats again shows that he still now didn't think about love. He is to much focused at Voldemort so he don't see her but he will because to misswrite the venus he need to see this planet. This leads to the runes again "Eihwaz" means defence and the tarot is "dead", "ehwaz" means partnership and the tarot is "the lovers". "Eihwaz" looks like Harry scar so Its logical to think Its easy to learn for Hermione. But she mess it up.

As she had to translate and this runes in front of her she didn't thought by "Eihwaz" which looks like Harrys scar not at defence but partnership. This suggest she compare Harry with partnership not with defence. But this "M" this another thing. Which words do come into your head By "M" ? Maybe "Mother". Wait this is now far fretched but this is interesting. Harrys "Mother" did defence him, right? Yeah. Now think Hermione speaks a lot about Harry (GoF) and does probably think alot about him. If than she did missread exact this two runes because her mind was in this times more as before by Harry. Than this say this two runes represent future and past, thats how this works with runes, "M" (mother) defence and "Eihwaz" future partnership. If we do strech it a little bit more than you can say that Hermione can save Harry only with partnership.

I had a hard time getting your point there. But these two things are not related to romance. Harry's perhaps maybe. But Hermione I'm afraid I don't see a pattern of being related to romance. I do see it related with a problem I consider she has. Something that could land her into trouble later on.

Just because you're good at a class doesn't mean it's your favorite. Hermione's good at potions and her favorite class is Arithmacy.

See the other examples I gave.

Where are the passages where Ginny makes reference to Hagrid being her favorite teacher?

Page 200 Ginny defends Hagrid when Luna claims he isn't a very good teacher. Off course you can always claim that she didn't actually say it.

That's ONE spell.

And?

Ron is friends with Hermione and he doesn't like books nor does he show much tolerance for Hermione's love of them.

I'm still missing the part where Ginny complaints about Hermione's books.

In the PoA film you mean? Can you provide evidence or a link to this news?

I'm sure you read the books, so I'm guessing you don't need info there. In the books she doesn't but it's on CoS at the beginning. The weasley never had a cat in cannon.

Ginny didn't guess anything, she argued with Ron who told her she wasn't going to the DoM. And based on the library and OotF chapter scenes, it appears she takes things at face value

I wasn't saying that part I was talking to this one:

Page 770 OoP.

'OK, listen,' said Harry stopping again within six feet of the door. 'Maybe… maybe a couple of people should stay here as a — as a lookout, and -'

'And how're we going to let you know something's coming?' asked Ginny, her eyebrows raised. 'You could be miles away.'

And Harry's jaw-dropping description of Hermione means nothing huh?

I believe Nia and I were talking about Ginny not Hermione.

How in the world is that thinking on your feet?! It took Ginny three years to get the picture that Harry doesn't like her. If anything, it proves she's slow to get the point.

Right! :rolleyes:

Ginny wasn't helping Hermione make hats, she was just talking to her. There was one pair of socks being knitted in the air in front of Hermione which means Hermione didn't really need Harry's help to knit because if she really needed the help, she would've gotten Ginny to help her when Harry turned her down. Hermione wanted to spend some quality time alone with Harry.

But off course Harry faking his enthusiasm is a sign of support. But Ginny doing what Harry refuse to do is not a sign of support. Right! :rolleyes:

How does she know? Is it stated or implied in canon that Ginny thinks Rita Skeeter is a liar?

Isn't Ginny a pureblood witch?

Gily Ann

Hi, everyone. Here is a quote which I consider could be a hint. One is for H/G. I think we have discussed them. To me, it is the only important hint for H/G. There is really not much else we have on H/G.

Pg.655 OFTP US
Harry looked at her. Perhaps it was the effect of the chocolate-
is it really chocolate or the chocolate is the red herring for H/G. it is really interesting IMHO. It draw my attention because Harry mention "perhaps". It sound more like a red herring.

you know the problem with this thread. We start to see ship moment everywhere. It is really unhealth.

And finally, in the name of all things holy--Mike, is that EMMA WATSON in your sig? :wow: Someone cover up that child, fast! :no:

Yes it is and though she's growing up, like you said, she's still a child as of now. Sad isn't it?

FP - I disagree. Just because everyone else is dressing a certain way doesn't make it right. It's just like the old saying, if everyone was jumping off a bridge, would you?

Gilyann - your answers to me don't make sense to my answers to you so I'll just let it go.

Well first of all....no you don't have the power of a seer lol and im not hinting that....
Also, I am not quite shipping R/Hr, but I DO think they will end up together, because the clues are there, and I ship H/G ever since I read CoS, and I know many people have shipped them since PS....Why do I ship them? Haven't I made that very clear? I ship them because there are things that prove Harry haves fun with her, that they understand each other, that she doesn't annoy Harry, that Harry can talk easily to her, that Ginny does have the guts to say something back at Harry when he is angry, not just when he is about to be, and because I think those two are perfect for each other....there are many other reasons....and a lot of proof, but you are going to say the same thing you've said of each clue that has been posted "oh and just because of that it means that H/G will happen"....so perhaps, before you call me, or anyone else close-minded
, you should think that maybe YOU are close minded, since I see a lot of you claiming H/Hr will happen, and even some of you said Harry IS, right now, in the current books, in love with her....and for me, THAT is being close-minded...
The perfume scene is not a clue for any ship at all, if you are going to analyze Hermione's "reactions" at least analyze something that has enough clues to be analyzed, not a comment that shows absolutely nothing of what you claim it to be. Hermione and Harry's friendship isn't solid enough, imo, because Harry gets annoyed by her, because Harry doesn't find it as fun, and because Hermione can't handle Harry's reactions towards anything....

Here, I'll give you a chronology

1) During the first walk around the lake, Hermione told Harry that Ron was jealous. She had not known that Harry and Ron were fighting, and it can be reasonably inferred that she went to breakfast and saw Ron acting jealous, then she packed up some toast and went to find Harry.

2) The time I'm referring to was the *second* walk around the lake. Hermione had been eating breakfast with Ginny, when Harry pulled her away to consult with her about the dragon problem. Ron was not mentioned at all in the scene, so you can't speculate that he was in Hermione's proximity. So again, my question is, why didn't Hermione eat breakfast with Ron? He is her best friend afterall.

Hermione didn't know that Harry and Ron were fighting? Oh please! Why did you think Hermione was so hesitant to answer Harry? Off course she knew!
What does it matter if One time out of the thousands that they eat breakfast toguether one time she doesn't do it? Poor Hermione is not even allowed to have friends. Who knows perhaps that's when Hermione was telling Ginny about her date? Hermione is allowed to gossip and have normal friends.

Apparently, Ginny can't come up with her own strategy.

Obviously she can because she did talk to the twins who were anyway planning on flying out of Howgarts. Ginny knew every move of the twins.

Be more specific please. I can't seem to understand what you're trying to say.

JKR has used all over Harry Potter things that have appear in other stories, simply because she likes it. Bringing Cedric's body back was a story about the conservation of bodies. The hipograff was also a story. Many parts of the story have resemblance to a part of another story. It's something she likes and she addapts to HP out of her own pleasure.

First of all, I am not sure who will eventually end up with whom. It is possible that Hermione may end up with Ron, Neville, Colin, or Draco, but in my opinion, Hermione and Harry seems more likely. I haven't discounted other possiblities. I have not made any remarks that Harry and Hermione will definitely end up together, or that H/G and R/Hr are impossible. On the otherhand, you're the one who posted:

Because I don't see them involved romantically. If I would see something I would admited but all that I see between H/Hr is friendship, a nice friendship.

Let me ask you a question: Are you that convinced that H/G will happen and that H/Hr won't? Don't you have a shred of doubt in your mind that maybe Ron and Hermione wouldn't happen?

I don't really care where Ron and Hermione are going. I assumed they are ending up toguether but I'm not a shipper of them. I don't like their interaction and I do disagree with some of JKR views on their interaction. But clearly relationships are viewed on different manners. Clearly she sees it differently than I do. But that doesn't mean that I can't see where she is going and her view.

But once again I have not seen any interaction between Harry and Hermione that hints to a possible relationship between them. As rabid of H/G shipper I do go from what's my interpretation of cannon. And once again I have not seen anything that says H/Hr.

Exactly what are you suggesting? Are you suggesting that people can't possibly have a different opinion than you or that their opinion is not as good as yours?

You said this:

And It is also very clear to me that Hermione *doesn't* like Ron presently, and her opinion of him is not as high as you may think.

In here you are telling me that my opinion is wrong and that yours is right. So I asked:

Are you seriously suggesting that you have a better opinion on this books that I can have?

I'm not saying that my opinion is better but you are suggesting that because you see it differently my opinion of it is wrong.

You know what they say: Dream Big...

That's right! ;)

I guess Hermione didn't make breakfast because she did eat toast with Harry. Probably she did wait that Harry turns up and asked Ron. And he said just "Maybe he is by his phototermin" this all what she need to know that Ron is jealousy and that they had a fight.

I could be wrong but Hermione didn't eat toast with him. I believe she brought him toast. I don't recall her eating them. Besides how could she bring breakfast and see Ron and not eat. :huh:

GilyAnn, I think that the point Nia was trying to make is that we don't have as much conclusive information about Ginny as we do about Hermione. You made a number of educated guesses in regards to the doubts that Nia listed, and that's fine. However, they are nothing more than inferences. We KNOW that Hermione's favorite class is Arithmancy, because as readers we have spent enough time getting to know her character in the text and said text has explicitly stated so. We don't KNOW that Ginny's favorite class is Charms or CoMC because we don't KNOW much of anything concrete about her character.

However, if you wish to draw inferences based on minimal text, you are completely welcome to do so and no one is attempting to stop you. The point here is not to nitpick at insignificant details, but to illustrate a bigger picture here: the fact that we have such little conclusive information about Ginny as a character proves that, as of five books, she has played an extremely minor role in comparison to Hermione.

From cannon. I didn't make that up it's all there in cannon. I'm not guessing JKR writes those things. Do you think she writes things and then forgets and does something else? A person that has entire notebooks on the charachters is not going to know what a character will or will not like?

I believe that if JKR writes that Ginny can do a bat bogey hex is because she knows she is good at it. She is obviously going to use that just like she uses Neville in herbology. If Ginny wasn't interested in charms she wouldn't be doing the questionare to find the spell behind it. If she wouldn't be interested she wouldn't ask Tonks. If she wouldn't be interested she simply wouldn't do those things. It doesn't make any sense to *me* to think that in the next books we are going to find out that Ginny's favorite class is Muggle studies. It makes sense that since Ginny is a character on JKR head she will be good and could perform what JKR needs her for. That's why Neville is good in herbology.

We don't know Hermione's parents is she is an only child. We know very little of Hermione personal issues, this since Harry hasn't bother to ask. We know Ginny's life an issues. We know a lot about her. Page quantity does not equal quality. We could have 100 pages of one character and not know much but we could have a 10 pages of another one and know his life, death and even the color of his underware. For example Mc Gonagall vs Neville

Gily Ann

FP, thanks for the reply! Great points.

Fabiana, nice theory and I agree Neville will probably play a critical role at Harry's side, but do you think Neville capable of murder, even for a 'good cause'? Seems that would just feed Voldemort's darkness. Meaning if Neville kills, then, just as with Harry in this position, he would have taken that first [huge] step toward the dark side. The only way I could see it is if Neville were trying to defend his friends, but will the good old A.K. work on Voldemort, or couldn't he just possess some other body with his dark spirit? I don't know...but I could Neville sacrificing himself to save another or allow others to escape, and I could particularly see Neville doing this to save Harry.
You're right, evaluna. I think I didn't explained it right. I just mentioned the murder because of the prophecy. You know..."and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives". I presumed that Harry would have to kill Voldemort. Do you think there's another way of making Voldemort die that is different from murder?

I hope there is, because I just don't see Harry being able to use an AK (remember when he tried doing the Cruciatus curse). That's why I thought about Neville. I don't think he would attempt murder in cold blood, just for the sake of it… maybe it would happen by accident. The fact is... Voldemort must be stopped somehow. Would this be possible just by Harry understanding love in its full depth? (I hope so, and maybe love will be his greatest weapon, but I tend to believe that JKR will make it a bit more complicated than that).

And I agree that Neville would probably sacrifice himself for his friends... Although I really don't like this "tragic hero" route, either for him or for Harry. I'll be really sad if one of them die in the end.

(Sorry, that got a bit out of topic, didn't it?)

Hermione didn't know that Harry and Ron were fighting? Oh please! Why did you think Hermione was so hesitant to answer Harry? Off course she knew!

You misunderstood me. She found out about it during breakfast; she didn't know about it before then because Harry and Ron faught the previous night. Even then, she didn't stay with Ron and comfort him, instead, she brings toast to Harry, and she explains to him Ron's jealousy while they walk around the lake.

What does it matter if One time out of the thousands that they eat breakfast toguether one time she doesn't do it?

It does matter because this is the period of time that Ron and Harry were having a fall out. It isn't just an ordinary day, but Ron and Harry weren't speaking to each other. If she really divided her time equally between the two friends, then we wouldn't see her eating breakfast with Ginny, or rather Ron.


Poor Hermione is not even allowed to have friends.

Oh yes she is allowed to have friends, but I find it a bit odd that Hermione chose to hang with Ginny when Harry isn't there rather than her other best friend, especially when Harry and Ron's friendship is about to fall apart.

Who knows perhaps that's when Hermione was telling Ginny about her date?

This takes place before the first task, so the Yule Ball hasn't been mentioned yet.

Hermione is allowed to gossip and have normal friends.

err...this is irrelevant. We weren't talking about Hermione and Ginny's friendship, but Hermione and Ron's.

Obviously she can because she did talk to the twins who were anyway planning on flying out of Howgarts. Ginny knew every move of the twins.

Then why ask them?


JKR has used all over Harry Potter things that have appear in other stories, simply because she likes it. Bringing Cedric's body back was a story about the conservation of bodies. The hipograff was also a story. Many parts of the story have resemblance to a part of another story. It's something she likes and she addapts to HP out of her own pleasure.

JKR may use certain portions of other works, but I hope the plot would be original, because otherwise, like you said, she would just be copying other authors, which would make me question her authenticity.

Because I don't see them involved romantically. If I would see something I would admited but all that I see between H/Hr is friendship, a nice friendship.

That is your preception, so you won't blame me for having a different one, won't you.

But once again I have not seen any interaction between Harry and Hermione that hints to a possible relationship between them. As rabid of H/G shipper I do go from what's my interpretation of cannon. And once again I have not seen anything that says H/Hr.

Again, that's your opinion, and I respect that; however, I disagree, and from my interpretation of cannon, I see H/Hr. As of now, I don't see H/G; however, that doesn't mean that they're not possible; merely the fact that I don't see it. I imagine that it is similar with you and H/Hr.
Am I right?

And It is also very clear to me that Hermione *doesn't* like Ron presently, and her opinion of him is not as high as you may think.

In this post, I was responding to your original post:


It's clear to me that by the books Hermione likes Ron and what her opinion of him is.

This is merely my opinion that Hermione doesn't like Ron presently. As far as her opinion of Ron: to me, it isn't as high as you've stated, and I backed up my claim with cannon evidence of "insensitive wart".

In here you are telling me that my opinion is wrong and that yours is right. So I asked:

I never said your opinion was wrong, because opinions cannot be better, worse, right, or wrong. I have merely stated my thoughts on your opinion.



I'm not saying that my opinion is better but you are suggesting that because you see it differently my opinion of it is wrong

I do see differently from you, but I did not state that your opinion is wrong or that my is right.

Why is every *******' post so long. I'm supposed to be doing some homework but it's boring so I decided to check up here. A lot's been going on.

We don't know a lot about Ginny. That's a given. We do however know a bit about Gred and Forge. We know a bit about Percy. We know a teensy bit about Charlie and Bill. And we know a tiny bit about Arthur and Molly. I'm not going to count Ron in this because we know a lot about him, but anyhoo.

We've read much of what Harry thinks of all the Weasley's except Ginny. Why is that so? We read in text that Harry thinks Percy's pompous and whatnot. He thinks Bill is cool. Don't know what he thinks of Charlie but he probably thinks he's cool too. We know what he thinks of Arthur and Molly. We definitely know what he thinks of Ron and Gred and Forge, but we know nothing of what he thinks about Ginny.

Everytime there's an instance where Ginny's thrown in we never really get a reaction. Like when Ron throws the idea of him going to the Yule Ball with GInny. We don't even get a reaction out of him. I mean, many would probably right it off, but in my opinion it could be very important later on. When romance blooms with Harry again. We don't get what he thinks of her. How he views her (other than she's small and those very nice adjectives.) Personality wise we don't know what Harry thinks of her.

Why? Why is JK hiding Ginny? We've got the sense of Harry being pretty close to a few of the Weasley's. They're like brothers. But the idea of him and Ginny as brother and sister don't cross. So unless JK's doing something totally out of whack then I don't know why she wouldn't just bring Ginny more into Harry's family-type circle and leave it so that there would be no romantic anything between them and you'd think of them just like brother and sister. Unless JK wants us to see the Weasley's as a part of Harry's family but GInny's not really part of that equation. Because she'd rather Ginny be the love interest that lets Harry marry into the family to officially be a family member.

I hope this makes sense. If it doesn't it's because I'm supposed to be working on some biology and I've got the study of DNA on my brain. So anyhoo, good reading.

PS, GilyAnn, those are nice educated guess about Ginny. I pretty much had the same ideas as you. :p

I agree with you fairy!! And it's a very clear post.........Great posts everyone!!

Well first of all....no you don't have the power of a seer lol and im not hinting that....

Good, because I clearly don't want to be one; imagine what life would be like if you know everything that is going to happen...scary thought.

Also, I am not quite shipping R/Hr, but I DO think they will end up together, because the clues are there,

Could you point them out?


Why do I ship them? Haven't I made that very clear? I ship them because there are things that prove Harry haves fun with her, that they understand each other, that she doesn't annoy Harry, that Harry can talk easily to her, that Ginny does have the guts to say something back at Harry when he is angry, not just when he is about to be, and because I think those two are perfect for each other....

and I ship H/G ever since I read CoS, and I know many people have shipped them since PS....

I have one question: since you began shipping H/G in CoS, and as you've stated, many H/Gers began shipping them in PS/SS, how does this relate to what you've posted? In PS/SS and CoS, Ginny and Harry barely spoke two words together; I'm very curious why you started shipping H/G, not what you think of them now.

there are many other reasons....and a lot of proof, but you are going to say the same thing you've said of each clue that has been posted "oh and just because of that it means that H/G will happen"

Just like you and H/Hr right?

....so perhaps, before you call me, or anyone else close-minded
, you should think that maybe YOU are close minded,

Exactly. We are ALL close minded people, or else we wouldn't be here debating about fictional romance, now would we.
But on the otherhand, some of us are less close minded than others.

since I see a lot of you claiming H/Hr will happen,

That's why we're here.

and even some of you said Harry IS, right now, in the current books, in love with her....and for me, THAT is being close-minded...


Oh really? You know what seems close-minded to me? Many R/Hr have already claimed that Ron and Hermione are secretly going out and are hiding it from Harry...now that's being close-minded, or simply in denial.

The perfume scene is not a clue for any ship at all, if you are going to analyze Hermione's "reactions" at least analyze something that has enough clues to be analyzed, not a comment that shows absolutely nothing of what you claim it to be.

To the contrary, I believe that the perfume scene is extremely significant in deciding Romance. As some R/Hrs have claimed, Hermione is in love with Ron, but is waiting impatiently for him to admit it. However, the perfume scene clearly shows that Hermione is not giving any encouragements to Ron. Even if the perfume smells like Hagrid's cologne, Hermione would have made a nice comment about it if she is really hoping for Ron to ask her out. Her lack of enthusiasm and reaction proves to me that she is not in love with Ron.


Hermione and Harry's friendship isn't solid enough,

If their friendship is being questioned, I don't know who are considered as real friends.

imo, because Harry gets annoyed by her,
He was annoyed with everyone. He was only annoyed with her because she pointed out to the things that he didn't want to think about. It only shows that Hermione is not afraid to correct Harry or point out something that Harry didn't want to face.


because Harry doesn't find it as fun,

I'm assuming you meant the period in GoF when Ron and Harry were having a fall out. Imagine this: would you be happy if one of your best friend is jealous of you and ignores you, while the entire school thinks that you're some sort of overly egotistical, attention seeking freak? I can't imagine anyone being happy in that situation.

and because Hermione can't handle Harry's reactions towards anything....

She handled it fairly well; she is able to stand up to him. Just because she has tears in her eyes does not mean that she is weak. She isn't crying because of weakness or rather because of strength. Even though, she hates fighting with Harry, she still stands up to him and tells him what he needs to know and understand. She cries because Harry is being headstrong and foolish, but she doesn't give up. She still tries to get through to him; she tells him things no one else dare to tell him; this shows true friendship.

Ahh! Where have all the H/G people gone? Apparently there are not many in the forum, I'll have to go over to HMS Orange Crush and call some out, and then we'd have a nice...debate...going.

I was an H/Hr shipper for a very long time, until around the 2nd time I read book 4. It occured to me that Harry and Hermione getting together was not going to happen (before you start yelling, just wait!). First of all, have you all completely missed the clues JKR has given us in her many interviews? She has almost bluntly said the Hr/R is the way she's going. As far as who Harry is going to end up with, she's proven very elusive, which is why we still indulge in discussions such as these. There are clues for nearly every ship, I have to admit...but I just feel as though JKR is going to end up H/G in the end. So, many people say that that's hackneyed, boring, overused - however you want to explain it. Most of those people are H/Hr shippers. Which brings me to ask- how often do you see the hero get with the heroine? And how often do you see the hero get with his best friend's little sister? Compare the two and get back to me on which one is more overused...

I know some readers are going to be disappointed whichever way it all ends up, but so be it. I'll accept whatever JKR decides, but I do have no doubt that she's going H/G. How are you all so oblivious to the clues? Or the way Harry and Hermione interact that clearly states that they aren't comfortable with each other? And do you honestly think the Rowling is going to let us know, flatly, who it's going to be? Of course not, has she ever?

So- Harry and Hermione. Sure, they seem like they could work. But have you noticed how Harry is always annoyed with her, or trying to avoid her; she acts like more of a mother to him than a friend or possible girlfriend. This is why Ron and Hermione received some fierce responses from Harry in book 5 (at least one of the reasons lol). Harry just doesn't look at her that way, and she's too controlling for him.

Ginny is one of the few people whom Harry actually apologized to in OotP. Her and Sirius. She was the only one he confessed to about wanting to talk to Sirius, after keeping it a secret for a whole week. And why would JKR make her have such a childish crush on him for nearly 4 years? To what purpose? Has she ever done anything that didn't become somewhat significant later on? Why would she have put in that 'chocolate in the library' scene if not for some relevant reason? Harry could have much easier confessed his feelings to someone else, so why bring specifically Ginny into the picture?

Sure, she "gave up" on Harry. I know you've all heard it before, but it's a very important quote- she didn't say "got over", and there's a big difference. Look at the beginning of OotP- Ginny lies "unblushingly" about the dungbombs. Does that help to illustrate that she is a rather good lier? Besides, they have to be able to have a conversation before there can ever be a relationship.

There are just so many clues that it makes me wonder how some people can miss them. I've not mentioned many of them- ask me later, I'll give you more reasons. I mean, come on, Ron's glance at the end of OotP, implying that Ginny should pick Harry. The fact that Ginny's boyfriend and Harry's girlfriend ended up getting together...I just have a hard time believing that JK might be shipping anything other than H/G.

Now, H/Hr shippers! I'm sure you have something to pick out, indicate that I'm wrong, go for it! I'm very happy to debate this lol. I'll grab a Peanut Potter and Ginny Sandwich, recruit some more Orange Crushers, and be right back with you. =)

Yes it is and though she's growing up, like you said, she's still a child as of now. Sad isn't it?

Very. That type of outfit would be appropriate for a grown woman, but not a thirteen-year-old. Honestly, when I look at that girl, I don't think "Hermione"; I think "precocious, cutesy teenage-boy-magnet", but that's another story. :whistle:

BTW, if you don't mind, I would like to address a few of the points that GilyAnn addressed to you.

I'm still missing the part where Ginny complaints about Hermione's books.

She doesn't, and no one claimed that she did. The point is that Ginny is not automatically a big book reader only because she's friends with Hermione--which is what you were alluding to in your former post.

How in the world is that thinking on your feet?! It took Ginny three years to get the picture that Harry doesn't like her. If anything, it proves she's slow to get the point.

Right! :rolleyes:

I'm curious: why do you disagree with Mad Eye Mike's statement above? You didn't provide support for your dispute.

But off course Harry faking his enthusiasm is a sign of support.
So we agree on something.
Sup*port"\, n: argue in defense of [syn: defend, fend for] 9: support; of morale, theories, etc

Yes, Harry does support Hermione by boosting her morale in his attempts to not hurt her feelings. He could easily have scoffed at her for asking him to help her with the elf hats; instead, he showed passive support for her cause by exercising tact in concealing his indifference about elf-rights.

But Ginny doing what Harry refuse to do is not a sign of support. Right! :rolleyes:

1) Harry didn't 'refuse' to help with the hats. He declined.
2) Ginny didn't help with the hats either. She was chatting with Hermione while Hermione knitted the hats. Nowhere in the text does it imply that Ginny was knitting.

Isn't Ginny a pureblood witch?

What does this have to do with her knowing that Rita Skeeter is a liar?

ana_banana,

I ship them because there are things that prove Harry haves fun with her, that they understand each other, that she doesn't annoy Harry, that Harry can talk easily to her, that Ginny does have the guts to say something back at Harry when he is angry, not just when he is about to be, and because I think those two are perfect for each other....there are many other reasons....

Such as?
I noticed that you haven't cited canon in your above statement, though you are of course entitled to your own speculation.

"....so perhaps, before you call me, or anyone else close-minded
, you should think that maybe YOU are close minded, since I see a lot of you claiming H/Hr will happen, and even some of you said Harry IS, right now, in the current books, in love with her....and for me, THAT is being close-minded...

ana_banana, didn't you yourself 'claim' that H/G will happen, and that it is 'proven' by the text? Isn't that what we are ALL doing in this debate? Most of us have sufficient strength in our convictions to adhere to our preferences and beliefs, yet you are calling us close-minded--all the while proclaiming your own personal belief in H/G and denouncing even the mere existence of any H/Hr evidence.

The perfume scene is not a clue for any ship at all, if you are going to analyze Hermione's "reactions" at least analyze something that has enough clues to be analyzed, not a comment that shows absolutely nothing of what you claim it to be.

1) Hermione's reaction to Harry's gift: "I've been wanting that new book for ages!"
2) Hermione's reaction to Ron's gift: "That perfume is really unusual, Ron."

Actually, there is plenty to be analyzed here. I could pull any solitary sentence out of the text and analyze it if I wanted to, because we are all free-thinking human beings who are at liberty to interpret as we please. One would be able to draw a number of conclusions from the situation above, because there are plenty of clues in Hermione's reaction as written. Of course, if you personally do not wish to count this as evidence because of your own preference, I daresay no one can stop you.

Hermione and Harry's friendship isn't solid enough, imo, because Harry gets annoyed by her, because Harry doesn't find it as fun, and because Hermione can't handle Harry's reactions towards anything....

This is interesting. Not only is Hermione not compatible with Harry as a romantic partner; she doesn't even have a good friendship with him, as stated above. Would you be able to explain to me why they have been best friends for five years if Harry has such a hard time being in her presence?

As for the last phrase, I'm not sure what you mean by Hermione not being able to handle Harry's reactions towards anything. If you could cite canon for me, it would be much appreciated.

And one more point from GilyAnn,

Do you think she writes things and then forgets and does something else?

No, I don't. On the contrary, she has chosen to minimize her development of Ginny because she apparently doesn't find it relevant to the central plot.

By your argument, I could draw any number of inferences on the characters of Hermione, Neville, McGonagall, Dumbledore, Hagrid, Dedalus Diggle, Cuthbert Mockridge, or Tom Riddle Senior. I could derive a personal history of Dorcas Meadowes based on the one sentence saying that Voldemort killed her personally. This would be an inference based on the text, but not a fact overtly stated in canon.

Therefore, I can apply the argument you used to defend Ginny's character development to your own queries about Hermione.

We don't know Hermione's parents

They are Muggles, dentists, possibly wealthy (they go on vacation quite a bit), and rather timid people, judging by the way they were hiding from the Weasleys in CoS. They are negligent parents because they never make Hermione come home for the holidays. They are pretty naive because they believed her when she said she wanted to stay at Hogwarts to study when she actually went to see the Weasleys.

is she is an only child.

She is an only child because she's bossy and demanding, and therefore most likely used to ruling the roost at home.

We know very little of Hermione personal issues

Well, I could be up to my eyeballs in her personal issues. She is insecure, most likely been neglected or teased all her life, and projects this insecurity in her obsessive need to excel. Because she feels that she has nothing other than her academic aptitude, she applies fiendish enthusiasm to being a perfect student and takes pride when praised. She subconsciously is attracted to the heroic type because she feels that, while she is a dominant and independent character, she will need balance in a relationship in order to prevent herself from domineering over her partner. Her bushy hair is a sign of her physical insecurities. The fact that she had her teeth shrunk is a sign of subconscious vanity. Because she ends her letters in "love from", she is secretly pining because she has been deprived of love all her life due to her parents' negligence.

Do you see how far I can stretch canon, to the point of complete inaccuracy or absurdity? How can your inferences about the specifics of Ginny's character be anything more than an inference and anything less than an educated guess?

We don't know much about Hermione's home life, certainly. Maybe because it's irrelevant to the central plot. Nor do we know much about Ginny as a character. Maybe because that's also irrelevant to the central plot.

I have already said my reasons of why I ship H/G...I believe CoS has many clues....And if you haven't seen the clues for H/Hr ever...then I don't see why you are arguing.
I have asked many times for something that points to a romance, not a friendship. I haven't seen anything.
It seems like you call close minded anyone who doesn't see any romantic feelings between Harry and Hermione, I, as well as you do, have the right to ship any couple that I want. Harry is annoyed by her, the reasons are she points the truth bla bla....but at the end of the day, he is annoyed by her....
Being dissed by his school doesn't have anything to do with Hermione not being fun.....Where is she fun??

I didn't call you close-minded....But you don't expect me to stay quiet when someone calls me that....

Well I suppose I should have read past the first page before I posted that! So the H/G people have already showed up - good!

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Prongs, Sr
JKR has stated, in an interview once posted here by Gily Ann, that they are here vision of the "ideal family". They are extremely important to Harry and the story, in general. I feel that JKR's continual, extensive development of them is because Harry will marry into that family. As I've said before, Ginny does not have to marry into the family for H/G to work, but on a symbolic level, it simply works. The Weasleys, I feel, have important contributions to make to the story; especially Arthur and Ginny, as they have personal reasons to fight respectively, Lucius and voldemort/Tom Riddle.
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Flying Phoenix
Thats kinda funny because the Weasleys are JKRs "ideal-family" Harry has to marry Ginny? I disagree to this because Harry is already a part like Mrs. Weasley said "As good as a son". Lucky Harry.

Flying Phoenix, great posts BTW & I completely agree with your Ginny/Weasley Family assessment. BTW thanks for your comments. I need the feedback to sort out exactly what to do with Luna and how she relates to the theme...and she's so much interesting than Ginny and has potential to open up a lot of new avenues for plot, including more of Harry's spiritual and emotional evolution. So, aside from Hermione [who already has the inside track, I'll wager ;)], I'd rather discuss Luna as devil's advocate/what if? [and for that matter, anyone else] than Ginny with regard to Harry...Actually I think Winky had a bit more personality [though troubled, an alcoholic, and not actually human...;)] but not to be too harsh, I like Ginny just fine. I've just had a bit of trouble getting a fix on her personality. As I've said, the best thing Ginny did was to assert herself enough to stand up for her choice [Dean] and not back down from Ron. Let's see if Ginny lives up to the hype; hopefully, she and Dean will stick.

But back to the other point: Yes, the Weasleys are already like a family to him, such that Harry is an honorary member already. To me, all the adopted family symbolism further points to Ginny becoming ever more like a younger sister to Harry as well, instead of just being Ron's younger sister. And I also agree with Tree Guardian's view on Harry/Ginny being too 'oedipal' a.k.a. 'replay' of James and Lily physically. Absolutely no offense intended to any but in light of the near-total lack of H/G interaction, personally I find this pair-up somewhat... less than satisfactory, psychologically. *Cringe*. Apologies for plainspokenness as its v. late indeed. But let me extend my official :td: to this ship as well as to R/Hr and D/nearly anyone. Otherwise I have my favourites [H/Hr, and several alternates or runners-up] but nothing else would evoke such strong negative reactions. Of course, I know certain persons will disagree and everyone is entitled to their own opinions.


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Prongs, Sr
Sorry, I don't buy your explanation. One or two references to Hermione being called a little girl are hardly in comparison to Ginny's continuing references. I believe Fleur's little sister was also referred to as a little girl and do you really think there is likely-hood that Harry would end up with her? In my opinion, Ginny is the only girl who meets this criteria. Your explanation of the quote is another example of the general pattern of H/hrs suggesting that JKR is being tricky and misleading. JKR did not have to use the description "little girl", but she did. I feel that since she keeps emphasizing this in regards to Ginny that Ginny is the girl in question here.
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Flying Phoenix
But it makes perfect sense. Ginny is kind obvious you don't need to think much if JKR sais little girl. But by Hermione there you need to read GoF where she refer to and bingo "little girl". To this comes Hermione is JKRs little girl because she is after her like a daughter.

Prongs, let's just call it a day and agree to disagree, shall we? :)...no hard feelings. But let me clarify that I don't JKR is being tricky or misleading...rather, she is very particular in her timing and choice of words, such that only she can truly know what she meant by a certain phrase...until we have it in canon, of course. Author's perogative, in other words.

Mad-Eye Mike ah it's so good to see you! Great rebuttal post. Where have you been? I know, I know, probably at Portkey;) Check my PM. And great rebuttal posts as well, Polaris15 & Earendil. Of course, great posts to you both, Nia and FP, from earlier! Did I miss anyone? Not intentional!
Cheers!

EDIT: Fabiana, I can get back to you on this later in more detail if someone doesn't respond, but let me just say that yes, I think the only way Harry can overcome Voldemort is by using the that mysterious force beyond all others, which as Flying Phoenix, Perdita, Turambar, Sirius83, Hawk92, Mad-Eye, Nia, noddwyd, sone, ecthelion, haycheng, myself, and probably many others would agree, either has something to do with love or is love [in some form]. Someone used almost that exact phrase, probably noddwyd or sone, and I think that pretty much captures my position as well. Many of us further think this is one of the main supporting reasons for thinking that love [overcoming hate], or, light [overcoming darkness], is the central theme of the series.

Again, I think this is the only way Harry can overcome Voldemort. Not with murder. I think Harry is not capable of murder, else he would not be Harry and he certainly would not possess that greatest of all powers in a measure beyond all others. Harry embodies unconditional love, IMO, and this is his greatest weapon [the potential to transform himself, Voldemort [through their bond they are in essence alter egos of one another], and external evil more generally. Neville, being Harry's shadow or right hand [along with Viktor IMO, but that's another topic], is almost certainly not capable of murder either. However Neville and Harry both understand loss and sacrifice; I see Neville sacrificing himself long before he ever kills anyone intentionally.

You misunderstood me. She found out about it during breakfast; she didn't know about it before then because Harry and Ron faught the previous night. Even then, she didn't stay with Ron and comfort him, instead, she brings toast to Harry, and she explains to him Ron's jealousy while they walk around the lake.

Ok I see what you mean now. But Hermione conforts Ron. Why do I say this? Because the feelings that she explained to Harry where Ron's feeligns. She understood him (if she agreed or not that's another matter) but in Harry's eyes the reaction she justifies is Ron's. So she had to talk to him, hear him. etc. Is it really that incredible that Ron and Hermione can be friends?

It does matter because this is the period of time that Ron and Harry were having a fall out. It isn't just an ordinary day, but Ron and Harry weren't speaking to each other. If she really divided her time equally between the two friends, then we wouldn't see her eating breakfast with Ginny, or rather Ron.

Wasn't Hermione said to be going from one to the other? Didn't she tried to get them togeuther for hogsmade? For me that time is equal. I would give Hermione also a break. I never even though that could be shipping related. I though it showed too friends (Hermione and Ginny) toguether. It showed for me that Hermione had a life besides being with Harry and Ron.

Oh yes she is allowed to have friends, but I find it a bit odd that Hermione chose to hang with Ginny when Harry isn't there rather than her other best friend, especially when Harry and Ron's friendship is about to fall apart.

Because Hermione and Ginny's are being 14 and 13 there! Ron and Harry's friendship is being tested but I think that's what save Hermione from going crazy. She became even closer to Ginny during GoF. I don't know what age you are but still at 34 for me being with the girls is still one of the must funs things! I think JKR showed there the closeness of Hermione and Ginny's friendship.

This takes place before the first task, so the Yule Ball hasn't been mentioned yet.

GoF is lended so I wasn't sure.

err...this is irrelevant. We weren't talking about Hermione and Ginny's friendship, but Hermione and Ron's.

I insist on keeping something for Hermione for her own purposes! I think we are missing each others point. Let's go back. I think I pointed out my point above.

Then why ask them?

I think we are also missing each others point in here. I'm talking about Ginny knowing the full story on the twins. Obviously she knew that they were planning something to leave school(remember how she pointed out in the end the other thing that they were planning on doing but never did). My point is that she went to them because as the twins said it was a good diversion and Harry could have his chat with Sirius. So why not used it?

JKR may use certain portions of other works, but I hope the plot would be original, because otherwise, like you said, she would just be copying other authors, which would make me question her authenticity.

Honestly speaking. You really believe that's copying? I don't, you just addapt it to your writting. More than half of the things in the HP universe are not original. They are very much copied or borrow from history. But that doesn't make it less fun than any others. It's the combination of those things what makes it fun.

That is your preception, so you won't blame me for having a different one, won't you.

Off course I won't! Everyone is entiled to their own opinion.

Again, that's your opinion, and I respect that; however, I disagree, and from my interpretation of cannon, I see H/Hr. As of now, I don't see H/G; however, that doesn't mean that they're not possible; merely the fact that I don't see it. I imagine that it is similar with you and H/Hr.
Am I right?

:tu: If I would see H/Hr I would see it. I knew that H/G were probably it ever since PS/SS. I ship them since CoS.

This is merely my opinion that Hermione doesn't like Ron presently. As far as her opinion of Ron: to me, it isn't as high as you've stated, and I backed up my claim with cannon evidence of "insensitive wart".


But that was point exactly. To me 'insensitive wart' shows even more Hermione's feelings.

I never said your opinion was wrong, because opinions cannot be better, worse, right, or wrong. I have merely stated my thoughts on your opinion.

I do see differently from you, but I did not state that your opinion is wrong or that my is right.

I'm sorry but that's how I understood it.

She doesn't, and no one claimed that she did. The point is that Ginny is not automatically a big book reader only because she's friends with Hermione--which is what you were alluding to in your former post.

But that's the whole point! How many times we have seen Hermione hanging out with a girl? I can't remember but it's not very normal. Why? Because Hermione is book obsessed. I do believe that Ginny brings to Hermione a lot of lightening up.

I'm curious: why do you disagree with Mad Eye Mike's statement above? You didn't provide support for your dispute.

She obviously wasn't being after Harry every minute of the day wasn't she? That's one of the H/Hr shippers complaint. She liked him but that's it. She gave up and met Michael at the Yule Ball. Ginny obviously could have gone with Harry to the ball but she choosed not to because she gave her word. There are many things that point out how on her feet she is. But off course we can always find something else.

Yes, Harry does support Hermione by boosting her morale in his attempts to not hurt her feelings. He could easily have scoffed at her for asking him to help her with the elf hats; instead, he showed passive support for her cause by exercising tact in concealing his indifference about elf-rights.

I'm not sure what you are trying to do here. But NO Harry fakes his support. He does not support Hermione's cause if he would he would have had the decency to tell her. Where her hats were going.

1) Harry didn't 'refuse' to help with the hats. He declined.
2) Ginny didn't help with the hats either. She was chatting with Hermione while Hermione knitted the hats. Nowhere in the text does it imply that Ginny was knitting.

Didn't he say no? He didn't want to do it? Refuse, decline, say no the point is that he didn't want to do it. Could Harry have helped? Obviosly not, because Harry doesn't know how to knit. So if Harry would have sat down with her just to keep her company. It would have been a sign of support but since it's Ginny who does it then it isn't? Ok! :huh:

What does this have to do with her knowing that Rita Skeeter is a liar?

That Ron knows what Rita is like. Wouldn't Ginny know too? Besides even Ginny tells Hermione what The Quibbler is all about it. BTW by then Ginny and Hermione were friends even if Ginny didn't knew I'm sure Hermione must have told her something about it.

No, I don't. On the contrary, she has chosen to minimize her development of Ginny because she apparently doesn't find it relevant to the central plot.

By your argument, I could draw any number of inferences on the characters of Hermione, Neville, McGonagall, Dumbledore, Hagrid, Dedalus Diggle, Cuthbert Mockridge, or Tom Riddle Senior. I could derive a personal history of Dorcas Meadowes based on the one sentence saying that Voldemort killed her personally. This would be an inference based on the text, but not a fact overtly stated in canon.

Therefore, I can apply the argument you used to defend Ginny's character development to your own queries about Hermione

If you can find evidence in cannon. Then you should have a pattern, or clues that drives you ahead of that. By cannon I'm sure that Hermione is an only child.

They are Muggles, dentists, possibly wealthy (they go on vacation quite a bit), and rather timid people, judging by the way they were hiding from the Weasleys in CoS. They are negligent parents because they never make Hermione come home for the holidays. They are pretty naive because they believed her when she said she wanted to stay at Hogwarts to study when she actually went to see the Weasleys.

You see that those things do exist! I agree with all of that I too felt the same way about them!

She is an only child because she's bossy and demanding, and therefore most likely used to ruling the roost at home.

And I agree with all of that! You see that it does exist!

Well, I could be up to my eyeballs in her personal issues. She is insecure, most likely been neglected or teased all her life, and projects this insecurity in her obsessive need to excel. Because she feels that she has nothing other than her academic aptitude, she applies fiendish enthusiasm to being a perfect student and takes pride when praised. She subconsciously is attracted to the heroic type because she feels that, while she is a dominant and independent character, she will need balance in a relationship in order to prevent herself from domineering over her partner. Her bushy hair is a sign of her physical insecurities. The fact that she had her teeth shrunk is a sign of subconscious vanity. Because she ends her letters in "love from", she is secretly pining because she has been deprived of love all her life due to her parents' negligence.

Do you see how far I can stretch canon, to the point of complete inaccuracy or absurdity? How can your inferences about the specifics of Ginny's character be anything more than an inference and anything less than an educated guess?

We don't know much about Hermione's home life, certainly. Maybe because it's irrelevant to the central plot. Nor do we know much about Ginny as a character. Maybe because that's also irrelevant to the central plot.

Excuse me? That is not stretching because you got pretty close. I disagree with the hero part, though ;) But I think pretty much the rest it was almost nail out well. What is your problem with your conclusions? I don't see a problem because all are based on cannon. Again I would disagree with the hero part but that's another story! ;)

Gily Ann

Nice posts today guys and yesterday and for the last couple of days that I have missed. Great posts there indeed Turambar, evaluna, Fp, Fabina, Earnedil, Nia. Great to see Mad Eye Mike back and Sirius 83 as well. But a :clap: to Polaris 15 for going above and beyond the call of duty.

First of all, have you all completely missed the clues JKR has given us in her many interviews?

No. We examined them quite closely. Did you? We saw that JKR said that Ginny was languashing in love for Harry and then JKR said that everyone was in love with the wrong person. So if Ginny is in love with Harry in Gof and everyone is in love with the wrong person in Gof then Ginny being in love with Harry is wrong. Yes we caught even that. Unless perhaps you mean that we missed the clues because we did not automatically insert Ginny into every quote that is possible. Or perhaps you are refering to that quote that no one can find that came from a German magazine that was magically recalled (before JKR became fameous) that no one has an original copy (I would sell it on ebay myself) of.

But what we didn't miss was the clues that JKR placed in her book

Such as
Ginny no longer fancies Harry
Ginny is dating Michael throughout OotP
Ginny knows that Michael and Cho are now dating, that Harry is free and still chooses Dean

So if you can miss or dismiss texual evidence why would you ask us how we missed clues in evasive quotes that are misleading when you are missing direct text?

Now I saw that the Christmas presents had come up again so I brought this out of mothballs for the heck of it,

Page 503 US version,

"Thanks for the book Harry!" she said happily. "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume is really unusal, Ron.”

Emphasis JKR.

Now at an intial look it doesn't seem to be alot.
1) The Trio has exchanged gifts. This happens every Christmas.
2) Harry has gotten her a book
3) Ron has gotten her perfume
4) Hermione is thanking both boys for their gifts

Now a slightly deeper look,

I notice the word unusual in front of the perfume gift. This is usually not a good thing. Generally when people refer to an unusual gift it doesn't show that they like it alot. This however is based on personal experience and is subject to interpetation.

The book itself "New Theory of Numerology" is interesting. Hermione's favorite subject is Arithmancy and this book clearly seems to be a part of Arithmancy. Hermione told Harry that she loved Arthimancy and that it was her favorite subject. Harry was listening. Knowing that Hermione loves books and Hermione loves Arithmancy, Harry combined the two. I think it also illiustrates that Harry is not as oblivious to Hermione as is often claimed in many debates. She did tell him it was her favorite subject in POA. Harry heard and Harry remembered.

And now for what's truly interesting. The grammar. Hmm the grammar, that sounds weird even to me. :)

*Hawk takes out his old grade school english book*

Now after Hermione speaking to Harry the sentence ends with an exclamation point, twice. While thanking him and while telling us what he gave her.

exclamation point
n (1824): a mark ] used esp. after an interjection or exclamation to indicate forcefulutterance or strong feeling--called also exclamation mark

And now the sentence with Ron's gift ends in a period.
period
1: the completion of a cycle, a series of events, or asingle action: conclusion

So while Harry's gift is being given emphasis, strong feeling, and a forceful utterance, Hermione is truly thanking him for the gift. The perfume comes off as a polite afterthought.

Cheers!

Addition to original,

Isn't it interesting that Harry knew that she didn't have that book or wouldn't be receiving that book for Christmas. Suggests a little research on old Harry's part.

Cheers! Again!

Thank you, Hawk92 and Evaluna (I will respond to your great post in a bit)
Thanks, Earendil, Mad Eye Mike and Flying Phoenix for running interference (an American football expression) for me on the "What we don't know about Ginny list" ;)

Originally Posted by me, Nia
I found Daveydee’s theory very intriguing except for Harry’s suicide at the end. <snip>

Posted by Daveydee:

Yes that apsect of the scenario worries me too, Nia. It would be a great challenge for JK to write such a scenario without sending out the message that death is more preferable than life. Not impossible, though. I am guided in this belief in so much of what has been written in canon that is suggestive of the idea that death 'should not be feared', that the 'dead never really leave us', that 'to the well organised mind, death is but the next great adventure', in addition to much of what JK has said about the books in interviews - that 'the central theme is death', that she cannot comment on the 'religious aspects of the story until book 7 is out', and in the oft floated suggestion that Harry 'may not survive the series' (I have to wonder whether she is genuinely and sympathetically preparing her younger readers to accept the real possibility that the hero may die).



These ideas have crossed my mind more than once and I completely agree with your observations. Well said.

Daveydee:
It really followed on from the crux of the this idea:Quote:

Originally Posted by me, Nia

Harry and Luna as partners

I can see this on some plane of imagination, but, as a female, it really grates to think that JKR would write a meaningful relationship precipitated on pity. I see Luna as Harry’s guide into realms of thought that defy the rational, but a love interest of such magnitude that he’d commit suicide for? I’m sorry, but I cannot see that.

Daveydee:
You chose the word 'precipitated' very carefully, I can see. Which is useful, because it allows me to make the observation that a meaningful relationship can be precipitated by many different things. The important thing is that it is subsequently built on firm foundations. It really doesn't matter what event gives rise to the rapport which ultimately leads to a relationship.

I will acquiesce this point, however the secret feminist within me is not pleased. :huh:

Daveydee:
One could argue a convincing case that Harry's relationship with Hermione was precipitated by his pity for her following Ron's 'no wonder she's got no friends' comment way back in PS, which subsequently lead to his feeling of guilt which ultimately took Ron and he to rescue her from the troll.

I think we can now safely ascribe Harry’s desire to rescue Hermione to his “saving people thing.” ;)

Daveydee:
EDIT: I'm just going to quickly add here (because I anticipate a rebuttal on the grounds of there not being enough time to develop a Harry/Luna relationship) that by Book 7 there will probably have been more page space from books 5 - 7 as there is from book 1 - 4. It's entirely possible and realistic; they will have been acquainted for 3 years.


Ha! You miscalculated, my dear Daveydee. In fact, I was just pondering some things Evaluna had said and have amended my first thoughts to concede that a Harry/Luna pairing could be a possibility if Luna is developed in more depth in the next book. Luna seems to have extraordinary perceptions about people and this could give her an edge should Harry become withdrawn and non-communicative or undergo yet another dramatic paradigm shift. She is already halfway able to understand his pain and loss without even being told. And then there is the very real possibility that JKR is using Luna’s quirky sense of reality to allow Harry to see possibilities for his survival that defy logic. I know the solution to the prophesy puzzle will be something quite unexpected and Harry will have to view it from a unique perspective in order to overcome Voldemort.
However, I still believe H/Hr is the way JKR will go. :)

Really good ideas, Daveydee! :tu:

Cheers,
Nia

Here, I'll give you a chronology

1) During the first walk around the lake, Hermione told Harry that Ron was jealous. She had not known that Harry and Ron were fighting, and it can be reasonably inferred that she went to breakfast and saw Ron acting jealous, then she packed up some toast and went to find Harry. :D
From what we know, Hermione probably talked to Ron that morning, and Ron isn't exactly good at hiding his emotions, especially when he's angry or jealous. But it's important to note that Hermione is very perceptive. That means she's perceptive when it comes to Harry and Ron, or even sometimes lesser characters. In this situation, she knows that Ron is jealous and seems to understand his feelings (even if she doesn't agree with them), in fact she understands them so well that she defends Ron in front of Harry.More than once.(Even in OotP, she makes a comment to Harry about how Fred and George didn't do much to encourage Ron's potential or increase his self esteem.)But she also understands that Harry's life is in danger, she understands that this is a desperate situation, and that Harry needs her more at that moment than Ron does. It is my opinion that she would have done the same for Ron had the situation been reversed.

2) The time I'm referring to was the *second* walk around the lake. Hermione had been eating breakfast with Ginny, when Harry pulled her away to consult with her about the dragon problem. Ron was not mentioned at all in the scene, so you can't speculate that he was in Hermione's proximity. So again, my question is, why didn't Hermione eat breakfast with Ron? He is her best friend afterall.
Actually, Harry was waiting for Hermione to finish breakfast, which she was eating with Ginny. Hermione knows that having all three of them in the same place creates a lot of tension. Remember when she wanted to slyly meet up with Ron in the Three Broomsticks? Hanging out with Ron creates a lot of tension between the three of them, and still, this is early on in the Triwizard Tournament. Harry himself was thinking of running away from Hogwarts things were so bad. Hermione, once again, knew that Harry needed her more than Ron did, and made choices to ensure that she would be able to be there for him.

Apparently, Ginny can't come up with her own strategy.
I think cannon proves the contrary. She came up with plenty of strategies toward the action laden end of Book 5, she seems very adept at handling lying to her mother, all in all, I'd say she performs pretty well under pressure. In this situation, she knew that Fred and George were planning something, and used it to Harry's advantage. How does that imply she can't come up with her own strategy? She knew that F and G were gonna do something, and she figured that they might as well happen at the same time, for optimum opportunity. Would it really be better for her to try and plan a different strategy just for the sake of doing it herself? In the meantime, Harry is suffering.

They're important, and will be involved in the defeat of Voldemort, but as I've stated before, does Harry have to marry into their family? Nope.
Of course he doesn't. But you can't deny it would be good for the poor guy. :love: Personally, I see this as an added bonus, because I think Harry and Ginny could have a potentially wonderful relationship, with a lot to offer each other.It's not the basis of most H/G shipper's arguments.
As for all this "I've shipped ___ and ____ since ___," I have long felt that Harry and Ginny would happen, the same goes for Ron and Hermione. I feel both the text and the words straight from Jo Rowlings mouth support this. But I'm basing my discussions here on what I feel and believe, which is what we are all doing. We are all trying to back it up. Personally, I don't see H/Hr, and I never have. If they happen, I will still read the books 100,000 times over, and I won't sue JKR. But I see it as LESS likely than H/G.
It just seems to me that we're debating opinions now, not the facts they are based on.

:tu: Have a good week everyone!
I'm SO hungry!

Well I'm angry. I put up a nice post. Neglecting my studies again. :p. About Ginny, and no one's come up with any rebuttles. I actually wanted to debate it. Rats. ;)

Great posts all H/G shippers and R/H shippers.

Side note, as for the pic in your sig MEM, I think Emma should tone it down. I mean, dressing like that at any age would get you noticed by some not so nice people. Especially if you're famous. You go to some boards and you hear the way some talk about her. Freaks be the bejeebies out of me.

Some very good posts today, :clap: all round.
Well I'm going to stick up for Emma. :p I really don't think what she's wearing is a big deal. It's a reflection of current teenage fashions. She's at an event on behalf of a movie company and a movie franchise that's meant to appeal to teens. And Emma appears to be an easy target. No-one seemed bothered by the pictures of Dan that came out earlier this year when he was wearing tight T-shirts that showed off his new muscles. I also think she's a talented actress and it's not her fault she's good-looking. :) The thing I like most about those pictures is she looks happy and confident which is a change from recent times when she has looked very nervous at publicity events. Hopefully she and the other kids will be able to get through this series with sanity intact and I hope for the best for them.

Okay, I have two things to say, and I'm not going to back them up with quotes or evidence.

I think that Ron & Hermione make a lovely couple... and I believe Hermione cares for Ron as much as he cares for her.

I don't really mind who Harry ends up with, as long as he is happy.

There, I said it.

Sorry, I can't let that go unanswered.
Only true if we overlook the fact that Hermione is clearly bothered by the fact that it's taken Ron 3 years to 'notice that she's a girl'.

I bet you can guess my answer, but... Nobody likes being thought of as a "last resort", and Hermione's no exception. I don't buy the common R/Hr argument about the Yule Brawl -- I'm pretty sure Hermione would've gone with Ron (or Harry) if one of them had just *asked* her. Plus, she's just *angry* and rightfully so. Harry and Ron have both been taken her for granted for too long.

Also only true if we overlook the fact that Hermione invites Ron to ask her first 'next time there's a ball'.

I wouldn't call that in invitation. It's offered as a solution to a problem, but what is the problem? Is the problem that Ron hasn't asked her to the dance, or is the problem that Ron thinks she shouldn't have gone to the Ball with Harry's rival in the Tri-Wizard Tournament? I believe JKR had Harry walk in on the tail of the conversation on purpose; from the conversation it's not entirely clear what their argument was about.

And if we overlook the fact that Hermione's is clearly jealous of Fleur's flirty behaviour towards Ron.

There's that word "clearly" again. If everything's so "clear", we wouldn't have to argue about it. I also humbly submit Hermione was annoyed by Fleur and her classmates from the beginning -- the Beauxbatons students came unprepared for the climate, and Fleur had the nerve to laugh at Dumbledore. Hermione is also dismissive toward the girls who moon over Krum; she's not impressed by people who use their looks or fame to get attention, which is what Fleur is doing. Furthermore, Hermione was also irritated by Harry falling under the Veelas' spell (ex. Hermione pulling him back in his seat at the QWC) and she was "simply furious" after Fleur kissed Ron *and* Harry (and I'll even toss in the idea Hermione was annoyed by Ron exaggerating his part in the First Task).

Standard answers :D. I think it's hysterically funny how R/Hr'ers and H/Hr'ers look at those scenes. Clever JKR, writing it that way...

And only true if we overlook the fact that Hermione is dissapointed that Ron is even 'worse than Harry' at spotting a girl's clear hints...

I'll give you this one and I'll be honest in saying this is one of the verrrrry few things in OotP that worries me regarding a possible R/Hr relationship :).

Wecome to the thread, BTW.

Thanks.

Gily Ann:

Yes same Hermione Granger. I highly doubt that Hermione would go ahead and push a guy she likes to invite her.

That's what I meant, actually. But I was more thinking along the lines of... why wait for him to ask her? Why can't *she* make the first move, if she likes him? The R/Hr camp argues that Hermione likes Ron. There's no real discussion as to whether Ron likes Hermione. So if he likes her, and she likes him, why doesn't *she* ask *him*? I doubt that she's so old-fashioned she's waiting for him to make the first move.

And even if she doesn't *know* he likes her (which I don't buy; I think she knows), why doesn't she encourage him? Why didn't she say something nice and grateful about the perfume? Why didn't she stay at the Quidditch victory celebration -- Ron's in the freaking *sky* with happiness, adrenaline's running high... it'd be the perfect moment for a girl to get closer to a guy she's interested in.

I'm sorry, but I just don't *see* the Hr --> R.

She can't be that bad, with that bat bogey hex!

Being a good student at one particular subject doesn't make you a good student *overall*. I was an average student in high school, but I was really good in the languages (Dutch, French, English and German). OTOH, I sucked at Math, Chemistry and Science.

If she's friends with Hermione she must like them. Or at least tolerate them.

Ron doesn't like books and he's friends with Hermione as well. Either way, this is still an inference and not actual canon.

And where did the idea of Animagus!Ginny come from? Did I miss that in OotP or something?

ana_banana:

The perfume scene is not a clue for any ship at all, if you are going to analyze Hermione's "reactions" at least analyze something that has enough clues to be analyzed, not a comment that shows absolutely nothing of what you claim it to be.

Apparently, enough people thought the gift-giving scene at Christmas was interesting. I, too, thought it might be a clue and I still think it is. Hermione's reaction to both gifts is imbalanced: she highly praises one of them and is, at best, luke-warm to the guy she's "supposed" to end up with. It's fine if you don't think it's important, but some of us DO.

Hermione and Harry's friendship isn't solid enough, imo, because Harry gets annoyed by her, because Harry doesn't find it as fun, and because Hermione can't handle Harry's reactions towards anything....

And yet, they're still friends and they keep growing closer. Even if he does get annoyed by her, so what? I get annoyed by my friends and my boyfriend often enough; it's part and parcel of being in a relationship. You don't agree on everything 100% of the time, that's impossible. And Hermione handles Harry's reactions just fine, IMO.

Re: H/Luna. I actually kind of like this pairing, much like Ron/Luna. It would be interesting, in both cases, and in the latter, it'd be actively funny, IMO.

I had a hard time getting your point there. But these two things are not related to romance. Harry's perhaps maybe. But Hermione I'm afraid I don't see a pattern of being related to romance. I do see it related with a problem I consider she has. Something that could land her into trouble later on.

If Hermione think at Harry and think at partnership and not at defence than it has something to do with romance. "patnership"= love, marriage.

So basicaly Ginny is dumb? This even though in cannon she is shown not to be.

No, I didn't say it. I said she isn't Hermione. But if this say for you she is than dumb well than I'm sorry this say Harry is dumb, Ron is dumb. Wait nearly whole Hogwarts is dumb. Thats sad we need to Ginny compare with Hermione, why? Why need Ginny to be extrem smart, loves Hagrid, loves animals. is tolerant, extrem powerful, an animagus, extrem pretty, extrem lovely? You know by all this perfect sides Harry don't has a point where he can be anoyed with her thats frustrating. All his anger will be bottled thats probably why I don't think its a bad thing that Harry is by imperfect Hermione sometimes annoyed. He lost at least his anger in OotP :elaugh:

Harry disagrees with you and so does JKR. And as a teacher remember that she told I believe it was Luna.

Somehow I can remember that Harry did think in GoF very different. There was it rather that Hagrid is not the best teacher. Harry loves Hagrid and thats why he do say Hagrid is a great teacher this don't say its true. Luna say he isn't a good teacher.

Galadriel Waters. He wrote a book a couple of months ago there was an interview with him here.
This guy! Well, I disagree with him in many points. But I'm sure he don't know more as we do so I don't know why refer to him.

FP - I disagree. Just because everyone else is dressing a certain way doesn't make it right. It's just like the old saying, if everyone was jumping off a bridge, would you?
Its not exactly my point. Well, no I wouldn't jump. But what she wears isn't showing to much because at summer girls run around like that. Its very normal. Even in year 1912 did they wear this and wasn't to much. To this comes she has to wear fashioning clothes because she represent one of the populars movies in the last 5 years. Its not a bad thing to wear it.

Side note, as for the pic in your sig MEM, I think Emma should tone it down. I mean, dressing like that at any age would get you noticed by some not so nice people. Especially if you're famous. You go to some boards and you hear the way some talk about her. Freaks be the bejeebies out of me.

If you think like that than a woman shouldn't go at the beach, or? Hmm I think I need to look if such a thread exist. Sorry for OT.

That's what I meant, actually. But I was more thinking along the lines of... why wait for him to ask her? Why can't *she* make the first move, if she likes him? The R/Hr camp argues that Hermione likes Ron. There's no real discussion as to whether Ron likes Hermione. So if he likes her, and she likes him, why doesn't *she* ask *him*? I doubt that she's so old-fashioned she's waiting for him to make the first move.

And even if she doesn't *know* he likes her (which I don't buy; I think she knows), why doesn't she encourage him? Why didn't she say something nice and grateful about the perfume? Why didn't she stay at the Quidditch victory celebration -- Ron's in the freaking *sky* with happiness, adrenaline's running high... it'd be the perfect moment for a girl to get closer to a guy she's interested in.

I'm sorry, but I just don't *see* the Hr --> R.

Because she is waiting for him to make the move. Hermione is a classy girl. I don't believe that it's on her character to go ahead and ask a guy out. The perfume simply stinked. But to be honest I don't see anything wrong with Unsual. On the Quidditch victory she was falling asleep on a chair. What more did you want? Ron wasn't even sitting down with her, he was talking to other people while she sat down on a chair exausted. Now if he would have been sitting down with her with his adrenaline's rush, perhaps things should be different. Instead he is with his adrenaline's rush with someone else. *boys!*

Being a good student at one particular subject doesn't make you a good student *overall*. I was an average student in high school, but I was really good in the languages (Dutch, French, English and German). OTOH, I sucked at Math, Chemistry and Science.

My best subject was literature. Ginny had been wanting to go to Howgarts ever since Bill was in there. She must have some likesome for studies. I'm not getting the point.

Ron doesn't like books and he's friends with Hermione as well. Either way, this is still an inference and not actual canon.

An inference from Cannon! I don't believe I made that up.

And where did the idea of Animagus!Ginny come from? Did I miss that in OotP or something?

Ginny got multiples if not almost always a reference to a cat. If it wasn't thru descriptions it was thru actions. For *me* it refers to something more than animagus.

If Hermione think at Harry and think at partnership and not at defence than it has something to do with romance. "patnership"= love, marriage.

I disagree. I believe that Hermione confusing those two has more to do with her actions than anything related to romance.

No, I didn't say it. I said she isn't Hermione. But if this say for you she is than dumb well than I'm sorry this say Harry is dumb, Ron is dumb. Wait nearly whole Hogwarts is dumb. Thats sad we need to Ginny compare with Hermione, why? Why need Ginny to be extrem smart, loves Hagrid, loves animals. is tolerant, extrem powerful, an animagus, extrem pretty, extrem lovely? You know by all this perfect sides Harry don't has a point where he can be anoyed with her thats frustrating. All his anger will be bottled thats probably why I don't think its a bad thing that Harry is by imperfect Hermione sometimes annoyed. He lost at least his anger in OotP

Well I knew that Ginny isn't Hermione! I don't say that she is smart as Hermione and I hope she never be. And JKR wrote Ginny that way perhaps because Harry needed a perfect person to be his other half, this since has so many problems. ;) :evil:

Harry lost his anger in OoP? :wow:

Somehow I can remember that Harry did think in GoF very different. There was it rather that Hagrid is not the best teacher. Harry loves Hagrid and thats why he do say Hagrid is a great teacher this don't say its true. Luna say he isn't a good teacher.

Let's keep Luna out of this because she is pretty lost and I firmly believe that there is something wrong with her. Now more than ever. Harry defends Hagrid along with Ginny and Ron in OoP claiming he is a good teacher.

This guy! Well, I disagree with him in many points. But I'm sure he don't know more as we do so I don't know why refer to him.

I disagree with some of his views but some of his points I agree.

Gily Ann

I want to look at an aspect of JKR's writing in relation to Hermione and Ginny.
I think she's trying to show the difference between a deeper level of strength and independence versus a more shallow level. And also the meaning of the phrase actions speak louder than words.

Ginny shows a bit of spirit at times towards Harry in OOTP:

"They do, do they?" said Harry, glaring ar Ron and Ginny. Ron looked down at his feet but Ginny seemed quite unabashed.
"Well, you have!" she said. "And you won't look at any of us!"
"It's you lot who won't look at me!" said Harry angrily."

And:

"We wanted to talk to you, Harry," said Ginny, "but as you've been hiding ever since we got back - "
"I didn't want anyone to talk to me," said Harry, who was feeling more and more nettled.
"Well, that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily."

And:

"We recognised Harry's voice. "What are you yelling about?"
"Never you mind," said Harry roughly.
Ginny raised her eyebrows.
"There's no need to take that tone with me," she said cooly. "I was only wondering whether I could help."
"Well, you can't," said Harry shortly."

And:

"You're too -" Harry began, but Ginny said fiercely, "I'm three years older than you were when you fought You-Know-Who over the Philosopher's Stone and it's because of me that Malfoy's stuck back in Umbridge's office with giant flying bogies attacking him -"


Now that behaviour is generally characterised as "standing up" to someone and showing strength. And it is to some extent. However there's another, more meaningful kind of strength and independence of thought. And Ginny, at this stage, falls down in that area.
In this Ginny reminds me of Molly. Molly is formidable on one level but compliant, conventional and dependent on another. Ginny shows spunk and attitude at times, but is ready to follow orders or rely on older, more dominant characters when she should be more questioning and prepared to use her own brain.
Also note the (very normal) self-centredness in the above quotes. This all reflects Ginny's age, level of maturity, level of friendship towards Harry and the fact that she's grown up with a bunch of older brothers. But it also lessens her suitability for Harry.

1) The Christmas scene:

"They do, do they?" said Harry, glaring ar Ron and Ginny. Ron looked down at his feet but Ginny seemed quite unabashed.
"Well, you have!" she said. "And you won't look at any of us!"
"It's you lot who won't look at me!" said Harry angrily."....
"We wanted to talk to you, Harry," said Ginny, "but as you've been hiding ever since we got back - "
"I didn't want anyone to talk to me," said Harry, who was feeling more and more nettled.
"Well, that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily."

Ginny responds to Harry's mood with a bit of attitude and defends her and her family's dealings with Harry over the period where he's been going through hell. But what would have been a more courageous way of dealing with Harry at this time?

Do you:

a) Leave him to stew upstairs, discuss the problem downstairs, and then defend your inaction when someone else comes along and actually gets him out of the room?

Or:

b) Don't leave him to stew upstairs, go and hammer on his door and try and get him to come out. If he won't come out and gets angry, well you just face that anger and say your piece through the locked door. Afterall, he's a captive audience isn't he? He can't go anywhere except out the door, you're outside of.
So which action requires the greater strength of character, the greater initiative, the greater personal commitment to Harry (since he's the one who needs help at this stage, Arthur being out of danger)?


2) The chocolate scene:

"I wish I could talk to Sirius," he muttered. "But I know I can't."
"Well," said Ginny slowly..."if you really want to talk to Sirius, I expect we could think of a way to do it."
"Come on," said Harry dully. "With Umbridge policing the fires and reading our mail?"
"The thing with growing up with Fred and George," said Ginny thoughtfully, " is that you sort of start thinking anything's possible if you've got enough nerve."....
"Ginny's had a word with us about you," said Fred..."She says you need to talk to Sirius?"
"What?" said Hermione sharply...
"Yeah..." said Harry, trying to sound casual, "yeah, I thought I'd like -"
"Don't be so ridiculous," said Hermione..."With Umbridge groping around in the fires and frisking all the owls?"

For a start, note how Harry and Hermione's thoughts re the fires/mail are EXACTLY the same. Only the language is different. Secondly Harry KNOWS he is wrong to do it, knows Hermione won't like it and is concerned about her opinion.

Thirdly notice how Ginny relates what Harry wants to do to Fred and George's pranks when in fact the situation surrounding Harry is of course far more serious. Ginny brings it down almost to the level of a dare: "if you've got enough nerve". It's rather like the front seat passenger next to the driver who's itching to speed, egging him on. It's a rather strange attitude considering she's previously been in serious strife (with Tom Riddle) herself.

I'm not saying that Ginny is still interested in Harry but what is the easiest thing to do if you ARE interested in someone? Go along with what they want, their views, adapt yourself to suit them. It's unclear whether Ginny even considered the matter from the point of view of: is what Harry wants what Harry needs? But if she had, the harder option would have been to at least raise questions about whether it was a good idea or not. The harder option still would have been to firmly argue against it - as Hermione does. Ginny not only does not question, does not even play Devil's Advocate, or even just keep quiet. Instead she focuses on a way he can achieve his goal - though she can't think of any plan herself - and even challenges Harry to go in that direction.


3) The debate over Sirius:

"He was running again , pushing students out of the way, oblivious to their angry protest. He sprinted back down two floors and was at top of the marble staircase when he saw them hurrying toward them. "Harry!" said Hermione at once, looking very frightened "What happened?Are you all right? Are you ill?"


Hermione's first response is intense concern.


"Voldemort's got Sirius."
"What?"
"How d'you- ?"
"Saw it. Just now. When I fell asleep in the exam."
"But - but where? How?" said Hermione, whose face was white....
"Harry," said Hermione in a rather frightened voice. "er...how...how did Voldemort get into the MoM without anybody realising he was there?"
"How do I know?" bellowed Harry. "The question is how we're going to get in there!"
"But...Harry, think about this," said Hermione, taking a step towards him, "it'ts five o'clock in this afternoon...the MoM must be full of workers...how would Voldemort and Sirius have got in without being seen? Harry...they're probably the two most wanted wizards in the world... you think they could get into a building full of Aurors undetected?"
" I dunno, Voldemort used an Invisibility Cloak or something!" Harry shouted. "Anyway, the DoM has always completely empty whenever I've been -"
"You've never been there, Harry," said Hermione quietly "You've dreamed about the place, thats all."


In contrast to Ginny's attitude, Hermione very quickly applies her intelligence and ability to reason, while still showing concern and tactfulness. She asks questions and tries to get Harry to think laterally.


"They're not normal dreams" Harry shouted in her face, standing up and taking a step closer to her in turn. He wanted to shake her. "How d'you explain Ron's dad then, what was all that about, how come I knew what had happened to him?"
"He's got a point," said Ron quietly, looking at Hermione.
"But this is just - just so unlikely!" said Hermione desperatly. "Harry, how on earth could Voldemort have got hold of Sirius when he`s been in Grimmauld Place all the time?"
"Sirius might've cracked and just wanted some fresh air," said Ron, sounding worried. "He's been desperate to get out of that house for ages -"
"But why." Hermione persisted, "why on earth would Voldemort want use Sirius to get the weapon, or whatever the thing is?"
"I dunno, there could be loads of reasons!" Harry yelled at her. "Maybe Sirius is just someone Voldemort doesn't care about seeind hurt -"
"You know what, I've just thought of something," said Ron in a hushed voice. "Sirius' brother was a DE, wasn't he? Maybe he told Sirius the secret of how to get the weapon!"
"Yeah - and that's why Dumbledore's been so keen to keep Sirius up all the time!" said Harry.
"Look, I`m sorry," cried Hermione, "But neither of you is making sense, and we`ve got no proof for any of this, no proof Voldemort and Sirius are even there -"
"Hermione, Harry`s seen them!" said Ron, rounding on her.


She does not let Harry's anger and panic - and he gets very intense - nor Ron's illogical thinking, nor the fact that she suddenly has to deal with two against one, to deflect her into trying to convince Harry not to act rashly.


"OK," she said, looking frightened yet determined "I've just got to say this-"
"You..this isn't a criticim, Harry! But you do..sort of...I mean - don't you think you've got a bit of - a - saving-people thing?" she said.
He glared at her.
"And what's that supposed to mean, a "saving-people thing"?"
"Well...you..." she looked more apprehensive than ever "I mean... last year, for instance...in the lake...during the Tournament...you shouldn't have...I mean, you didn't need to save that little Delacour girl...you got a bit...carried away..."
A wave of hot, prickly anger swept through Harry's body; how could she remind him of that blunder now?
"I mean, it was great of you and everything," said Hermione quickly, looking positively petrified at the look on Harry's face. "everyone thought it was wonderful thing to do -"
"That's funny," said Harry through gritted teeth, "because I definitely remember Ron saying I'd wasted time acting the hero...is that what you think this is? You reckon I want to act the hero again?"
"No,no,no!" said Hermione, looking aghast "Thats not what I mean at all!"
"Well, spit out what you've got to say, because we're wasting time here!" Harry shouted.
"I'm trying to say - Voldemort knows you, Harry! He took Ginny down into the COS to lure you there, its the kind of thing he does, he knows you're the - the sort of person who'd go to Sirius's aid! What if he's just trying to get you into the DoM--?"
"Hermione, it doesen't matter if he's done it to get me there or not - they've taken McGonagall to St.Mungos, there isn't anyone from OotP left at Hogwarts who can tell, and if we don't go, Sirius id dead!"
"But Harry - what if your dream was - was just, a dream?" Harry let out a roar of frustration. Hermione actually stepped back from him, looking alarmed....


She tackles a very sensitive subject and JKR emphasises the difficulty of the task and her strength in overcoming it by making her fear and apprehension clear. Harry's opinion matters a great deal to her.

Hermione shows tenacity and a fierce emotional and intellectual involvement in this debate. She's ALL THERE in this scene, there's nothing half-hearted or uncommitted about it. There's also a selflessness about it (in contrast to the Ginny quotes above). She doesn't take personal offence at Harry's shouting and so allow him to put her off. Ron, for instance, gets sidetracked at one point when Harry turns on him:


"What d'you think all the Occlumency was for, why d'you think Dumbledore wanted me prevented from seeing these things? Because they're REAL, Hermione - Sirius is trapped, I've seen him....
"You didn't have a problem with my saving-people thing when it was you I was saving from the Dementors, or -" he rounded on Ron "- when it was your sister I was saving from the Basilisk-"
"I never said I had a problem,!" said Ron heatedly.
"But Harry, you've just said it," said Hermione fiercely, Dumbledore wanted you to learn to shut these things out of your mind, if you`d done Occlumency properly you'd never have seen this -"


Hermione manages to get Harry to compromise and comes up with a plan (again unlike Ginny and also in the midst of very heated debate). JKR shows the extreme loyalty behind Hermione's decision to go into Umbridge's den through her earlier scenes where Hermione was vehemently opposed to Harry breaking into the office. She also shows Harry recognising that loyalty despite his anger.


"Harry, I'm begging you, please!" said Hermione desperately "Please let's just check that Sirius isn't at home before we go charging off to London. If we find out he's not there, then I swear I won't try to stop you. I'll come, I'll d-do whatever it takes to try and save him."...."But if this is a trick of Voldemorts, Harry, we've got to check, we've got to."
"I mean, you can - can check whether Sirius is at home or not while I keep watch, I don't think you should be in there alone. Lee's already proved the windows a weak spot, sending those Nifflers through it," Even through his anger and impatience, He recognised Hermiones offer to accompany him into Umbridges office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty."


Hermione never goes for the soft option just to please Harry, despite her very strong feelings for him, whether they are characterised as friendship or something more.

OOTP is full of characters letting Harry down because they ultimately don't quite care enough or they allow his behaviour to deflect them, or they don't know him well enough or they don't have his best interests at heart. Not Hermione, she has those bases covered. Although she does allow herself to be persuaded by Dumbledore at the beginning not to tell Harry what's going on and at the end by Ron not to push the subject of Sirius.

Dumbledore misreads Harry and the situation; Snape stops teaching him occulmency because of the old emnity with James, Snape and Sirius allow their old emnity to cloud their vision on what's best for Harry and the Order; the Weasleys and Sirius don't try hard enough to draw Harry out of his room and his depression at Christmas; Ron stops Hermione from talking to Harry about Sirius at the end.

Hermione takes on the task - despite being "nervous" and "anxious" - of having to tell Harry the Daily Prophet has turned his name into a joke. She just about snaps Ron's head off when he suggests Snape may be trying to help Voldemort because she doesn't want Harry deterred from studying occulmency. She relentlesslessly tries to keep Harry focused on occulmency and from going into Umbridge's office despite knowing she'll hardly win popularity contests for doing so. She cancels Christmas with her family and a skiing holiday to come to Harry's aid. She comes up with the ideas and organisation for the DA and Rita articles which make a big practical difference to how Harry feels during the year and unselfishly gives him all the credit.

I think this strength of character is crucial to Hermione's importance to Harry, the inspiration behind the "Harry needs Hermione badly" quote. Hermione is too strong, too fierce, too driven to allow Harry too far into the various minefields along his path. With Ginny, Harry would just plunge of the road at some point with her running along behind and never make it back.

I think JKR's trying to say that the stronger you can be as an individual the more you can bring to a relationship. And in my opinion it's true: the better you feel about yourself the more generous you can be to others.

JKR has stressed Hermione's mental independence and individuality in the way she has written the character. She regularly surprises the boys with what she does, she's been prepared to go off to classes without them on her own, she's kept her own counsel on a lot of things, she's always had her own way of operating. Sure Harry is hugely important to her but she chooses to put her heart into helping him.