Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom part five

Great post Turnambar. :clap:

I agree complett with you. Just let say: Hermione right, Ginny easy. This do it very well where is the different.
I mean Hermione face this difficults though she know that they won't agree with her.

All right, I'm by no means an expert like most of you but here goes:

When researching careers neither Harry or Hermoine really could not find anything. Harry has said Auror but it seems like this is just something to say and his heart isn't really in it. Hermoine said she wanted to make a difference. Ron definately was on about being an Auror however. H is very good at DADA and has now shown teaching ability as well and since there is a new DADA teacher each year chances are they will need one at the end of book 7. Hr is well known for favoring Arithmacy (sp) but have we ever heard much about the prof...and teaching is a job that does something for others. By the way what is Ron's favorite subject??? We don't know what James and Lily did but would you be suprised if they were Hogwarts instructors? I wouldn't they were in the tight circle of friends and were well know and liked by all at hogwarts. So, there you have it H/Hr together (like James and Lily) and instructors at Hogwarts (like James and Lily).

Wonderful post Turambar as always, and the rest of the H/Hr crew, Dominique, FP, evaluna and the rest. Haven't been round lately and the thread has gone quick.

I also think Turambar that one of the main reasons behind Hermione's actions and words towards Harry is her priority to keep Harry safe and out of trouble - the reasoning of his mind - and this says a lot in Hermione's book IMO. There isn't too much up there that holds a higher priority than homework or studies but Harry is definately one of them, either as a friend or more than a friend, whichever one wants to consider it as.

The amount of times which Hermione has warned, nagged, whatever you want to call it over the years they have known each other definately has had an effect on how Harry thinks about how he goes about setting off somewhere. That is, Harry now has Hermione in his head making him think twice beforehand, this is now beginning to form his rational and more logical side of his head. Not only does Harry have Hermione in his head, he also worries about her reactions - what ever that reaction might be - when he goes off and does something reckless. It doesn't only extend to going out on on reckless pursuits but of other issues as well e.g. S.P.E.W (GOF), Harry's marks in classes etc. This just only shows how much Harry thinks of Hermione in a non-romantic or romantic way (however you wish to see it) and it definately could head towards that and is already set up to do so. Not only that, but Harry does not make any nasty comments about Hermione or disregard her views either, even in high emotional states such as the one in OOTP when he had the nightmare about Sirius.

Each and every book, there seems to be a continuing pattern that Harry and Hermione get closer in each book as the novels progress. And as this pattern reachs the ending stages, there will be a Harry and Hermione coupling if this pattern continues. Also regarding Harry's thoughts about Hermione's reactions, I think this is beginning to show even more now. In early OOTP when Harry is not prefect and Hermione comes in the room to ask to borrow Hedwig I thought Harry tried not look at Hermione because he didn't want to disappoint Hermione in that he wasn't prefect after seeing how excited she was when she came in thinking Harry was prefect. Another example is when he hides away his marks from Potions not to let her see it. On the point I was making, I just thought why would Hermione borrow Hedwig's owl rather than Ron's? Sure Ron owl might be a little clumsy sometimes but he is efficient enough, but why Harry's when his owl is more noticeble? Anyway that was just a question back to the post.

JKR is also I think setting up for a Harry/Hermione relationship at the end, I may be wrong but everything seems logical how she has already set things up. This was most apparent in the Grawp chapter when I think [/B]Turambar[B] noticed this as well, was the number of times in the text that from the passage it said "Harry and Hermione", there was too many for just the one chapter. There was rarely a "Ron and Hermione" in the whole text if I remember correctly and even when around Ron in that chapter it was still "Harry and Hermione", so why does JKR not just get Harry to say what happened or just Hermione rather than not both? I thought it was very symbolical how she ended the chapter up with saying Harry and Hermione walked together up the stairs to Hogwarts. It creates the very strong imagery IMO of a couple walking down the isle - and it definately seemed significant and works well with many of the other symbolic and great imagery that JKR has created between the two. It also creates allusions to other movies or literature with such endings e.g. Star Wars Episode 2: Attack of the Clones where two people are finally united at the end.

So in this JKR has definately shoved enough red herrings to say that if Harry/Hermione do get together, she has got enough proof in her books to prove it. In the end, Harry and Hermione do show enough support for each other for a relationship to work and Harry could be slowly realising that Hermione means much more to him.

Thanks FP, Vash. I'll have to digest your post in the morning Vash, it's a bit late here. Cheers.

The amount of times which Hermione has warned, nagged, whatever you want to call it over the years they have known each other definately has had an effect on how Harry thinks about how he goes about setting off somewhere. That is, Harry now has Hermione in his head making him think twice beforehand, this is now beginning to form his rational and more logical side of his head.

This with her voice in his head is interesting because we learn in OotP or rather some R/Hr or H/G say Harry finds Hermione very annoying why than have her voice in his head? Thats contare to each other. So it can't be that he finds her annoying rather annoying that she know him so well and knows he do something wrong what he does know, too. Its like you make knowingly a failure and than comes someone "I told so" its annoying because you knows very well how wrong you was doing. Now why is she in his head? Because she is the only one who still face him, who still tells him the truth no matter what and he knows she cares for him very much so Its not complite weird to have her in his mind. Because he knows she cares that deep like this suggest.

On the point I was making, I just thought why would Hermione borrow Hedwig's owl rather than Ron's? Sure Ron owl might be a little clumsy sometimes but he is efficient enough, but why Harry's when his owl is more noticeble?
Good question. This would prefent her to see Harry in that mood but she wanted. Thats the point she wanted all this. If you want you could say in the last 4 or 5 books everything she did was in some strange ways for Harry thats strange. This is really strange to do.

Now that behaviour is generally characterised as "standing up" to someone and showing strength. And it is to some extent. However there's another, more meaningful kind of strength and independence of thought. And Ginny, at this stage, falls down in that area.
In this Ginny reminds me of Molly. Molly is formidable on one level but compliant, conventional and dependent on another. Ginny shows spunk and attitude at times, but is ready to follow orders or rely on older, more dominant characters when she should be more questioning and prepared to use her own brain.
Also note the (very normal) self-centredness in the above quotes. This all reflects Ginny's age, level of maturity, level of friendship towards Harry and the fact that she's grown up with a bunch of older brothers. But it also lessens her suitability for Harry.

Well to me it shows that Ginny knows that other people have a different opinion and respects that. She also trust people's judgement. Believing that you are right above others is just a character flaw that Hermione has. I believe that Ginny is a very suitable partner for Harry because off course she has already dealt with 6 brothers. She knows what boys are made off.

Ginny responds to Harry's mood with a bit of attitude and defends her and her family's dealings with Harry over the period where he's been going through hell. But what would have been a more courageous way of dealing with Harry at this time?

Do you:

a) Leave him to stew upstairs, discuss the problem downstairs, and then defend your inaction when someone else comes along and actually gets him out of the room?

Or:

b) Don't leave him to stew upstairs, go and hammer on his door and try and get him to come out. If he won't come out and gets angry, well you just face that anger and say your piece through the locked door. Afterall, he's a captive audience isn't he? He can't go anywhere except out the door, you're outside of.
So which action requires the greater strength of character, the greater initiative, the greater personal commitment to Harry (since he's the one who needs help at this stage, Arthur being out of danger)?

So I take this as when Hermione snaps at Harry and calls him naive in a moment and then leaves. This when something is affecting then she has no commitment to Harry? I've never though about that.

To answer your question A requires more commitment to Harry. But not in a way you tried to show it as if she doesn't care. A requires the person to wait until the other one is ready to talk. It shows respect for his feelings and it shows that even though you are dying to talk to him. You respect his feelings, when he is ready to talk he'll go and do it. Just like he did when he got to 12GP in xmas. Pushing people to do what you want it shows lack of maturity and a very high Ego.

For a start, note how Harry and Hermione's thoughts re the fires/mail are EXACTLY the same. Only the language is different. Secondly Harry KNOWS he is wrong to do it, knows Hermione won't like it and is concerned about her opinion.

Thirdly notice how Ginny relates what Harry wants to do to Fred and George's pranks when in fact the situation surrounding Harry is of course far more serious. Ginny brings it down almost to the level of a dare: "if you've got enough nerve". It's rather like the front seat passenger next to the driver who's itching to speed, egging him on. It's a rather strange attitude considering she's previously been in serious strife (with Tom Riddle) herself.

I'm not saying that Ginny is still interested in Harry but what is the easiest thing to do if you ARE interested in someone? Go along with what they want, their views, adapt yourself to suit them. It's unclear whether Ginny even considered the matter from the point of view of: is what Harry wants what Harry needs? But if she had, the harder option would have been to at least raise questions about whether it was a good idea or not. The harder option still would have been to firmly argue against it - as Hermione does. Ginny not only does not question, does not even play Devil's Advocate, or even just keep quiet. Instead she focuses on a way he can achieve his goal - though she can't think of any plan herself - and even challenges Harry to go in that direction.

Harry knows that Hermione is going to NAG him and that's why he doesn't talk to her. Is one of the things on why he avoids her. He doesn't want to hear her with his nagging and speaches.

Also Ginny knows what danger is but that doesn't stop her from doing what she feels is right. Even if it's dangerous. It's obvious that Harry's doubts are consuming him in this moment. It is a necessesity that Harry does something. I can imagine Hermione in that scene. She probably would have had a fit (just like she did) and start nagging Harry. Besides it's not in her character to be that understandable to Harry. That Scene wouldn't have been the same with Hermione in it. In the library part Ginny showed an understanding to Harry feelings that it hasn't been shown frequently.

Yes, Ginny relates to Fred and George's pranks in Harry's situation. Because for Harry to talk to Sirius something needs to happens that distracts Umbridge's attention from Harry. Now having a bit of joke and distracting her from Harry, it's diverting her attention and leaves Harry to go and free his soul from that awful thoughts that he had. Which is very cleaver if I may add.

In contrast to Ginny's attitude, Hermione very quickly applies her intelligence and ability to reason, while still showing concern and tactfulness. She asks questions and tries to get Harry to think laterally.

Your comparing two scenes that bear no relation to each other. Furthermore you forget to include that:

The classroom door opened. Harry, Ron and Hermione whipped around. Ginny walked in, looking curious, closely followed by Luna, who as usual looked as though she had drifted in accidentally.

'Hi,' said Ginny uncertainly. 'We recognised Harry's voice. What are you yelling about?'
'Never you mind,' said Harry roughly.

Ginny raised her eyebrows.

There's no need to take that tone with me,' she said coolly, 'I was only wondering whether I could help.'

'Well, you can't,' said Harry shortly.

and:

'Sirius is being tortured NOW!' shouted Harry. 'We haven't got time to waste.'
'But if this is a trick of Voldemort's, Harry, we've got to check, we've got to.'
'How?' Harry demanded. 'How're we going to check?'

'We'll have to use Umbridge's fire and see if we can contact him,' said Hermione, who looked positively terrified at the thought. 'We'll draw Umbridge away again, but we'll need lookouts, and that's where we can use Ginny and Luna.'

Though clearly struggling to understand what was going on, Ginny said immediately, 'Yeah, we'll do it,' and Luna said, 'When you say "Sirius", are you talking about Stubby Boardman?'

Nobody answered her.

So Ginny gets a hint that Sirius is in trouble although she doesn't have the full details. So in there she is being concern and willing to risk anything for someone she cares about. That being Sirius not Harry. She also says so when they are about to go in the DoM.

She does not let Harry's anger and panic - and he gets very intense - nor Ron's illogical thinking, nor the fact that she suddenly has to deal with two against one, to deflect her into trying to convince Harry not to act rashly.

Actually in that scene even though we know that Hermione could be right and is. The logical thinking is Ron's not Hermione's. Hermione has no prove of what she is saying. On the contrary Harry has never been wrong before. All the atacks were real. There was no reason to doubt him.

She tackles a very sensitive subject and JKR emphasises the difficulty of the task and her strength in overcoming it by making her fear and apprehension clear. Harry's opinion matters a great deal to her.

Hermione shows tenacity and a fierce emotional and intellectual involvement in this debate. She's ALL THERE in this scene, there's nothing half-hearted or uncommitted about it. There's also a selflessness about it (in contrast to the Ginny quotes above). She doesn't take personal offence at Harry's shouting and so allow him to put her off. Ron, for instance, gets sidetracked at one point when Harry turns on him:

Honestly! Hermione shows being downright scare of Harry in there and in several times. (which btw i failed to see how is it good for a H/Hr pairing) If Harry's opinions would matter to Hermione she would bother to listen to him but she doesn't. She is no way annalizing what he is saying or the fact that he could be right because history proves that no other dream has been false. In fact she takes him to Umbridge's office thinking that she is going to show him that Sirius is there. Not exactly understanding what he is saying.

Hermione manages to get Harry to compromise and comes up with a plan (again unlike Ginny and also in the midst of very heated debate). JKR shows the extreme loyalty behind Hermione's decision to go into Umbridge's den through her earlier scenes where Hermione was vehemently opposed to Harry breaking into the office. She also shows Harry recognising that loyalty despite his anger.

"What d'you think all the Occlumency was for, why d'you think Dumbledore wanted me prevented from seeing these things? Because they're REAL, Hermione - Sirius is trapped, I've seen him....
"You didn't have a problem with my saving-people thing when it was you I was saving from the Dementors, or -" he rounded on Ron "- when it was your sister I was saving from the Basilisk-"
"I never said I had a problem,!" said Ron heatedly.
"But Harry, you've just said it," said Hermione fiercely, Dumbledore wanted you to learn to shut these things out of your mind, if you`d done Occlumency properly you'd never have seen this -"

I see three people debating not compramising in the above. No one is saying you do this while I do that.

Hermione never goes for the soft option just to please Harry, despite her very strong feelings for him, whether they are characterised as friendship or something more.

OOTP is full of characters letting Harry down because they ultimately don't quite care enough or they allow his behaviour to deflect them, or they don't know him well enough or they don't have his best interests at heart. Not Hermione, she has those bases covered. Although she does allow herself to be persuaded by Dumbledore at the beginning not to tell Harry what's going on and at the end by Ron not to push the subject of Sirius.

Yes she does. She gets more out of Harry by pleading than with naggin. OoP is full of outside characters that don't believe in Harry because of all that has been going around. Ron believes him, Ginny believes him, all of the order believes him. Now if H/Hr shippers are suggesting that Hermione is the only one that understands and believes Harry that to me it's far. There are a list of people that clearly believe in Harry and support him. All and most unrelated to shipping.


Dumbledore misreads Harry and the situation; Snape stops teaching him occulmency because of the old emnity with James, Snape and Sirius allow their old emnity to cloud their vision on what's best for Harry and the Order; the Weasleys and Sirius don't try hard enough to draw Harry out of his room and his depression at Christmas; Ron stops Hermione from talking to Harry about Sirius at the end.

Dumbledore never misreads Harry's situation. He acts thinking that he is doing the best for him. Which isn't.

Snape's stop teaching Harry because he is a resesntfull jerk.

Snape and Sirius were at war because Snape again was being a resentfull jerk rubbing in on Sirius what he was doing. This knowing that Sirius was going to be mad at him.

Weasley's and Sirius not getting Harry out. Once again I believe that Harry needs to talk on his terms not on other people's terms.

Ron not letting Hermione talk about Sirius - Well I'm glad he didn't let her. She was quite rude to Sirius and to Harry. That friendship needs healing and some time before that subject could be touched again. Doing so now will makes things worst. Besides it's not only Ron who stops Hermione from talking to Sirius it's JKR who does that. Clearly for some reason JKr does not want Harry to talk about that with them. Why is good question for book 6.

Hermione takes on the task - despite being "nervous" and "anxious" - of having to tell Harry the Daily Prophet has turned his name into a joke. She just about snaps Ron's head off when he suggests Snape may be trying to help Voldemort because she doesn't want Harry deterred from studying occulmency. She relentlesslessly tries to keep Harry focused on occulmency and from going into Umbridge's office despite knowing she'll hardly win popularity contests for doing so. She cancels Christmas with her family and a skiing holiday to come to Harry's aid. She comes up with the ideas and organisation for the DA and Rita articles which make a big practical difference to how Harry feels during the year and unselfishly gives him all the credit.

I think I read a different book wasn't this the Harry Potter series? I didn't know that there was one that was called Hermione Granger and the OoP. I know H/Hr shippers loved Hermione but Ron does a lot of things for Harry also. Mind counting them also? That's why they are his sidekicks!

Hermione tells him about the papers, Ron tells him about the Ministry, Fred and George about Percy, Ginny tells him that they understand about him not wanting fame but his family (pharaphresed). It's all about giving each person something to say. I have yet to see any of this as shipping related. Hermione cancel xmas for the Weasley's for me. Saying that it was for Harry is for me going to far. I always understood that Hermione did the DA because of her not because of Harry. This was about them learning not to built up Harry's self esteem.



I think this strength of character is crucial to Hermione's importance to Harry, the inspiration behind the "Harry needs Hermione badly" quote. Hermione is too strong, too fierce, too driven to allow Harry too far into the various minefields along his path. With Ginny, Harry would just plunge of the road at some point with her running along behind and never make it back.

Harry needs Hermione badly. Clearly on the quote she was refering to Hermione's brains. And she has proven also that it was to that what she was talking about. *I* felt that in OoP JKR left rather clear why Hermione and Harry are not suited.

I think JKR's trying to say that the stronger you can be as an individual the more you can bring to a relationship. And in my opinion it's true: the better you feel about yourself the more generous you can be to others.

JKR has stressed Hermione's mental independence and individuality in the way she has written the character. She regularly surprises the boys with what she does, she's been prepared to go off to classes without them on her own, she's kept her own counsel on a lot of things, she's always had her own way of operating. Sure Harry is hugely important to her but she chooses to put her heart into helping him.

Exactly! Her own way of operating! Which is why she confused partnership with defense. This will no doubt land her on trouble in the future. Hermione never counts with Harry or Ron she does her own modus operandi and does not count with her 'partners' for it.

Gily Ann

TURAMBAR:

Now that behaviour is generally characterised as "standing up" to someone and showing strength. And it is to some extent. However there's another, more meaningful kind of strength and independence of thought. And Ginny, at this stage, falls down in that area.
In this Ginny reminds me of Molly. Molly is formidable on one level but compliant, conventional and dependent on another. Ginny shows spunk and attitude at times, but is ready to follow orders or rely on older, more dominant characters when she should be more questioning and prepared to use her own brain.
Also note the (very normal) self-centredness in the above quotes. This all reflects Ginny's age, level of maturity, level of friendship towards Harry and the fact that she's grown up with a bunch of older brothers. But it also lessens her suitability for Harry.

Ginny does show spunk towards Harry when he is wrong and she is standing up to him as an equal, not cowering, and pleading like Hermione does with Harry when he is extremely angry. Ginny is hardly self-centered. I would think that Harry could write a book on that particular subject.

Ginny responds to Harry's mood with a bit of attitude and defends her and her family's dealings with Harry over the period where he's been going through hell. But what would have been a more courageous way of dealing with Harry at this time?

Do you:

a) Leave him to stew upstairs, discuss the problem downstairs, and then defend your inaction when someone else comes along and actually gets him out of the room?

Or:

b) Don't leave him to stew upstairs, go and hammer on his door and try and get him to come out. If he won't come out and gets angry, well you just face that anger and say your piece through the locked door. Afterall, he's a captive audience isn't he? He can't go anywhere except out the door, you're outside of.
So which action requires the greater strength of character, the greater initiative, the greater personal commitment to Harry (since he's the one who needs help at this stage, Arthur being out of danger)?

Harry was afraid to face the Weasleys because of guilt that he (in his mind) has caused Arthur to be almost killed. It says that Ron and Ginny try to get Harry out of the room, but he doesn't want to face them. As for Ginny being angry at Harry, I believe she was angry for Harry forgetting that she was possessed and more power to her. What happened to her was a form of mind rape/control/emotional violation. She is suffering from the dementors appearance in book 3, obviously there is a connecting here that she has not forgotten the pain and trauma that Riddle put her through. She does, after explaining to Harry, that he wasn't possessed, make Harry feel better.


"I wish I could talk to Sirius," he muttered. "But I know I can't."
"Well," said Ginny slowly..."if you really want to talk to Sirius, I expect we could think of a way to do it."
"Come on," said Harry dully. "With Umbridge policing the fires and reading our mail?"
"The thing with growing up with Fred and George," said Ginny thoughtfully, " is that you sort of start thinking anything's possible if you've got enough nerve."....

"Ginny's had a word with us about you," said Fred..."She says you need to talk to Sirius?"
"What?" said Hermione sharply...
"Yeah..." said Harry, trying to sound casual, "yeah, I thought I'd like -"
"Don't be so ridiculous," said Hermione..."With Umbridge groping around in the fires and frisking all the owls?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above scene shows how Hermione is not girl friend material to Harry. First of all, Fred and George are talking to Harry, not Hermione and Hermione just decides to butt in to the conversation. She is treating him like he is an idiot who can't make decisions for himself.

Ginny is supporting Harry in his decision to talk to Sirius. She knows that this is clearly eating away at Harry and it is very important for him to do so. This is what a girlfriend is supposed to do. Ginny is giving him hope in this situation. This was the last time Harry gets to have a meaningful conversation with Sirius and Ginny helped bring this about. You can discount the importance of it all you want, but Ginny helped Harry with a personal matter, which is the primary role of a girlfriend/wife/significant other and Harry isn't sure if its the chocolate that makes him feel better or Ginny. That, IMO, is complete foreshadowing to H/G romantic relationship.

GILY ANN:

I think I read a different book wasn't this the Harry Potter series? I didn't know that there was one that was called Hermione Granger and the OoP. I know H/Hr shippers loved Hermione but Ron does a lot of things for Harry also. Mind counting them also? That's why they are his sidekicks!

I absolutely agree, Gily Ann. Some H/Hrs are placing Hermione's importance in the novels above Harry's.

Well to me it shows that Ginny knows that other people have a different opinion and respects that. She also trust people's judgement. Believing that you are right above others is just a character flaw that Hermione has. I believe that Ginny is a very suitable partner for Harry because off course she has already dealt with 6 brothers. She knows what boys are made off.

Every person is made differently. Just because she lives with a group of boys doesn't mean that any of them are going to be like Harry.


To answer your question A requires more commitment to Harry. But not in a way you tried to show it as if she doesn't care. A requires the person to wait until the other one is ready to talk. It shows respect for his feelings and it shows that even though you are dying to talk to him. You respect his feelings, when he is ready to talk he'll go and do it. Just like he did when he got to 12GP in xmas. Pushing people to do what you want it shows lack of maturity and a very high Ego.

When did Hermione push Harry to open the door and talk to her? Is this what you're talking about in regards to the 12GP scene? Because if it is, I highly disagree. And I do agree with you in regards to that they should wait until Harry wants to speak to someone, but he's been distant for a little over a day now and that's not good. How long were they truly going to let him distance himself?


Harry knows that Hermione is going to NAG him and that's why he doesn't talk to her. Is one of the things on why he avoids her. He doesn't want to hear her with his nagging and speaches.

Also Ginny knows what danger is but that doesn't stop her from doing what she feels is right. Even if it's dangerous. It's obvious that Harry's doubts are consuming him in this moment. It is a necessesity that Harry does something. I can imagine Hermione in that scene. She probably would have had a fit (just like she did) and start nagging Harry. Besides it's not in her character to be that understandable to Harry. That Scene wouldn't have been the same with Hermione in it. In the library part Ginny showed an understanding to Harry feelings that it hasn't been shown frequently.

Harry doesn't want to hear Hermione nagging because he knows that she is going to tell him the truth, he just doesn't want to hear it.


Yes, Ginny relates to Fred and George's pranks in Harry's situation. Because for Harry to talk to Sirius something needs to happens that distracts Umbridge's attention from Harry. Now having a bit of joke and distracting her from Harry, it's diverting her attention and leaves Harry to go and free his soul from that awful thoughts that he had. Which is very cleaver if I may add.

What joke? I can't remember, could you tell me?



Your comparing two scenes that bear no relation to each other. Furthermore you forget to include that:

The classroom door opened. Harry, Ron and Hermione whipped around. Ginny walked in, looking curious, closely followed by Luna, who as usual looked as though she had drifted in accidentally.

'Hi,' said Ginny uncertainly. 'We recognised Harry's voice. What are you yelling about?'
'Never you mind,' said Harry roughly.

Ginny raised her eyebrows.

There's no need to take that tone with me,' she said coolly, 'I was only wondering whether I could help.'

'Well, you can't,' said Harry shortly.

and:

'Sirius is being tortured NOW!' shouted Harry. 'We haven't got time to waste.'
'But if this is a trick of Voldemort's, Harry, we've got to check, we've got to.'
'How?' Harry demanded. 'How're we going to check?'

'We'll have to use Umbridge's fire and see if we can contact him,' said Hermione, who looked positively terrified at the thought. 'We'll draw Umbridge away again, but we'll need lookouts, and that's where we can use Ginny and Luna.'

Though clearly struggling to understand what was going on, Ginny said immediately, 'Yeah, we'll do it,' and Luna said, 'When you say "Sirius", are you talking about Stubby Boardman?'

Nobody answered her.


Actually in that scene even though we know that Hermione could be right and is. The logical thinking is Ron's not Hermione's. Hermione has no prove of what she is saying. On the contrary Harry has never been wrong before. All the atacks were real. There was no reason to doubt him.

There's no reason to doubt Harry, but there's this huge thing called Occlumency which Dumbledore wanted Harry to learn because Voldemort could use Legilimency to manipulate Harry's mind. Hermione is simply worried that what he dreamt is a trick and simply wants Harry to understand that it is a possibility, as well that it could be real. She wants him to keep his mind open to such possibility and to think clearly before he makes a mistake.


Honestly! Hermione shows being downright scare of Harry in there and in several times. (which btw i failed to see how is it good for a H/Hr pairing) If Harry's opinions would matter to Hermione she would bother to listen to him but she doesn't. She is no way annalizing what he is saying or the fact that he could be right because history proves that no other dream has been false. In fact she takes him to Umbridge's office thinking that she is going to show him that Sirius is there. Not exactly understanding what he is saying.

I believe Hermione was more scared that Harry was about to go and save Sirius not knowing if it's real or not which could get him killed. Hermione gets quite worked up when Harry is about to do something drastic that could involve him getting hurt or even killed like in PoA and GoF.

Hermione does listen to Harry if not she wouldn't be arguing back his comments. What Harry doesn't do is listen to Hermione and think that the dream could be a trick on behalf of Voldemort.

And where does it say that Hermione takes Harry to Umbridge's office thinking she is going to show him that Sirius is there?



"What d'you think all the Occlumency was for, why d'you think Dumbledore wanted me prevented from seeing these things? Because they're REAL, Hermione - Sirius is trapped, I've seen him....
"You didn't have a problem with my saving-people thing when it was you I was saving from the Dementors, or -" he rounded on Ron "- when it was your sister I was saving from the Basilisk-"
"I never said I had a problem,!" said Ron heatedly.
"But Harry, you've just said it," said Hermione fiercely, Dumbledore wanted you to learn to shut these things out of your mind, if you`d done Occlumency properly you'd never have seen this -"

I see three people debating not compramising in the above. No one is saying you do this while I do that.

If I'm not mistaken Ture meant the scene after your homegirl Ginny and Luna came in. That Harry and Hermione compromised. Only Harry and Hermione being that Harry and Hermione were the only ones arguing.


Ron not letting Hermione talk about Sirius - Well I'm glad he didn't let her. She was quite rude to Sirius and to Harry. That friendship needs healing and some time before that subject could be touched again. Doing so now will makes things worst. Besides it's not only Ron who stops Hermione from talking to Sirius it's JKR who does that. Clearly for some reason JKr does not want Harry to talk about that with them. Why is good question for book 6.

Perhaps because Lupin maybe the one who will talk to Harry about Sirius. And of course, maybe Harry will be depressed in book 6, instead of angry.

Prongs Sr.:
I absolutely agree, Gily Ann. Some H/Hrs are placing Hermione's importance in the novels above Harry's.

Excuse me? I have to disagree. Hermione is clearly playing an important role in the novels, not above Harry of course, but around the same level as Dumbledore's. She is there to help Harry so her level of importance is more than other characters such as Ginny. I don't see how some H/G'ers are playing Ginny's importance (so far) in the novels above Hermione's.

EDIT:
GilyAnn:
She was quite rude to Sirius and to Harry.

When was this? I don't remember JKR or Harry stating that Hermione was rude to him or Sirius?

Well to me it shows that Ginny knows that other people have a different opinion and respects that. She also trust people's judgement. Believing that you are right above others is just a character flaw that Hermione has. I believe that Ginny is a very suitable partner for Harry because off course she has already dealt with 6 brothers. She knows what boys are made off.

Ginny don't respect this if she did she didn't say "Well, that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily.
This is for sure not respect to say the other is stupid. That she trust Harrys judgement is even not right because she did say he was wrong to think they didn't want to look at him. This is his opinion and she told him first its stupid, second its wrong. Its not only Hermione. Ginny does just the same with the possing thing she think she is right the different Hermione knows it from books Ginny not.
About dealing with 6 brothers Its rather so that she runs by problems to her brothers for help this isn't dealing thats hiding.

To answer your question A requires more commitment to Harry. But not in a way you tried to show it as if she doesn't care. A requires the person to wait until the other one is ready to talk. It shows respect for his feelings and it shows that even though you are dying to talk to him. You respect his feelings, when he is ready to talk he'll go and do it. Just like he did when he got to 12GP in xmas. Pushing people to do what you want it shows lack of maturity and a very high Ego.

I disagree, this is kinda fears that she can't deal with Harry alone if he is in this mood. Its not respect this isn't the right word. If you care and you know he suffers you don't wait not in all world wait till he comes to you. I never heard of this to do so out off respect thats cruel to wait 42 hours till someone else comes and do this job and than sit there and tell him they wanted speak with him. Sorry I don't buy this. If you want than you do and not sit downstairs and wait till Hermione comes around. I'm pretty sure would Harry have a own family his mother didn't wait till his best female friend skip her trip and starts to speak to Harry.

Harry knows that Hermione is going to NAG him and that's why he doesn't talk to her. Is one of the things on why he avoids her. He doesn't want to hear her with his nagging and speaches.

I disagree he don't go to her because he knows from the very start its wrong to try and speak with Sirius.

Also Ginny knows what danger is but that doesn't stop her from doing what she feels is right. Even if it's dangerous. It's obvious that Harry's doubts are consuming him in this moment. It is a necessesity that Harry does something. I can imagine Hermione in that scene. She probably would have had a fit (just like she did) and start nagging Harry. Besides it's not in her character to be that understandable to Harry. That Scene wouldn't have been the same with Hermione in it. In the library part Ginny showed an understanding to Harry feelings that it hasn't been shown frequently.

I again disagree Ginny does it not because she know its right, she do it for the trill. And Ginny don't understand Harry if she did than she did know its wrong to do. She don't ask if its not to risky she do run anyway to her brothers. Understanding is far more as to speak others after they mouth. I see there very different as you do. Its not that Ginny even think about the danger like you suggest Its rather thats for her a trill to proof herself thats something very different.

Yes, Ginny relates to Fred and George's pranks in Harry's situation. Because for Harry to talk to Sirius something needs to happens that distracts Umbridge's attention from Harry. Now having a bit of joke and distracting her from Harry, it's diverting her attention and leaves Harry to go and free his soul from that awful thoughts that he had. Which is very cleaver if I may add.

A free soul without a school anymore thats is it what could had happen. At the end of the day before Fred and George start this Harry wished to stop it but he couldn't anymore this to "how right" this was. In the end he was with Hermione in agreement and if it was only in his mind. To this comes nothing did this changes this conversation with Sirius. James was still the same like in Snapes memorys.

Your comparing two scenes that bear no relation to each other
So Ginny gets a hint that Sirius is in trouble although she doesn't have the full details. So in there she is being concern and willing to risk anything for someone she cares about. That being Sirius not Harry. She also says so when they are about to go in the DoM.

This scenes can be compared because its about opinions and advice. That Ginny did it directly isn't being concern is rather that she never did hear Hermione and Harry argue like that. She get there isn't something right because in all 5 books you never saw such a scene. This say something huge did happens whats dangerous.

Actually in that scene even though we know that Hermione could be right and is. The logical thinking is Ron's not Hermione's. Hermione has no prove of what she is saying. On the contrary Harry has never been wrong before. All the atacks were real. There was no reason to doubt him.

Now i'm surprised at this because Ron was for sure not logical. Hermione had a point a **** good logical point that Dumbledore didn't want that Harry dreams this stuff. This alone proofs Ron wrong but this isn't all. If you compare this dream with the one about Mr Weasley. Harry can suddenly describe the surrounding a lot better but by the other dream only how he bites Mr Weasley. There isn't how many doors there are or anything else. To all questions Harry said "I dunno" thats more as strange.

Honestly! Hermione shows being downright scare of Harry in there and in several times. (which btw i failed to see how is it good for a H/Hr pairing) If Harry's opinions would matter to Hermione she would bother to listen to him but she doesn't. She is no way annalizing what he is saying or the fact that he could be right because history proves that no other dream has been false. In fact she takes him to Umbridge's office thinking that she is going to show him that Sirius is there. Not exactly understanding what he is saying.

She do and gives her answer to that but Ron and Harry don't listen. Right because all dreams were right this one have to be too though Dumbledore did everything to prefend Harry to dream more. Even Harry did suspect If he is a spy because Voldi could see through Harrys eyes. She do understand what he is saying. **** good otherwise she didn't start to beg and to say why this could be a trap.

Yes she does. She gets more out of Harry by pleading than with naggin. OoP is full of outside characters that don't believe in Harry because of all that has been going around. Ron believes him, Ginny believes him, all of the order believes him. Now if H/Hr shippers are suggesting that Hermione is the only one that understands and believes Harry that to me it's far. There are a list of people that clearly believe in Harry and support him. All and most unrelated to shipping.

Its not that Hermione is the only one is rather she is the only one who face him. Tells him how she think though he don't like it. Is honest to him what others are not. Thats the very point not that she is the only one who believes him.
Believing and just nod or to be silent isn't that what Hermione does but all others maybe Sirius not.

Dumbledore never misreads Harry's situation. He acts thinking that he is doing the best for him. Which isn't.

Snape's stop teaching Harry because he is a resesntfull jerk.

Snape and Sirius were at war because Snape again was being a resentfull jerk rubbing in on Sirius what he was doing. This knowing that Sirius was going to be mad at him.

Weasley's and Sirius not getting Harry out. Once again I believe that Harry needs to talk on his terms not on other people's terms.

Ron not letting Hermione talk about Sirius - Well I'm glad he didn't let her. She was quite rude to Sirius and to Harry. That friendship needs healing and some time before that subject could be touched again. Doing so now will makes things worst. Besides it's not only Ron who stops Hermione from talking to Sirius it's JKR who does that. Clearly for some reason JKr does not want Harry to talk about that with them. Why is good question for book 6.

Dumbledore did misread Harry's situation and didn't tell Harry because he did listen to his heart and not to his mind.

Snape stops because of the past with the marauders.

If we wait till Harry starts to speak than I suggest we see us back in book10 or till Harry is again that angered.

Hermione wasn't rude to Sirius and not to Harry. This friendship don't need healing because there wasn't a fall out thats between Harry and Ron a different story.

Hermione tells him about the papers, Ron tells him about the Ministry, Fred and George about Percy, Ginny tells him that they understand about him not wanting fame but his family (pharaphresed). It's all about giving each person something to say. I have yet to see any of this as shipping related. Hermione cancel xmas for the Weasley's for me. Saying that it was for Harry is for me going to far. I always understood that Hermione did the DA because of her not because of Harry. This was about them learning not to built up Harry's self esteem.

I know I read different books. First to tell someone he is in a paper a jerk its more hard as to tell things about Percy, ministery (what Hermione did too), about not wanting fame (Hermione said this too).
Its not to far because after 2 days Mr Weasley was alright again and she didn't ask after him not once as she was there. All what she did was to ask and to speak with Harry.
About DA it was pretty much both in another case she didn't beam like that.

Harry needs Hermione badly. Clearly on the quote she was refering to Hermione's brains. And she has proven also that it was to that what she was talking about. *I* felt that in OoP JKR left rather clear why Hermione and Harry are not suited.

Thats your interpretation this don't be right. So its not clearly Hermiones brain thats kinda sad to say this because Harry himself don't think about her as just a brain.

Exactly! Her own way of operating! Which is why she confused partnership with defense. This will no doubt land her on trouble in the future. Hermione never counts with Harry or Ron she does her own modus operandi and does not count with her 'partners' for it.

Yeah, right thats why she confuse two runes. Allright I disagree but I'm sure did know I would

Every person is made differently. Just because she lives with a group of boys doesn't mean that any of them are going to be like Harry.

Yes everyone is different. But, it gives her experience on boys.

When did Hermione push Harry to open the door and talk to her? Is this what you're talking about in regards to the 12GP scene? Because if it is, I highly disagree. And I do agree with you in regards to that they should wait until Harry wants to speak to someone, but he's been distant for a little over a day now and that's not good. How long were they truly going to let him distance himself?

Ask your shipmates when Hermione push Harry to open the door they were the one's who stated that they hammer the door and yell and etc. Also it wasn't over a day it was around a day that Harry hadn't been talking. I do believe that some people need more time than that.

Harry doesn't want to hear Hermione nagging because he knows that she is going to tell him the truth, he just doesn't want to hear it.

I'm sorry but Harry never sits between Neville and Seamus and thinks that he doesn't want to hear Hermione's nagging because she is telling him the truth. We don't get it even inferred. He let's us know his annoying feelings towards her actions. This not because she is telling him the truth but because she is annoying him.

What joke? I can't remember, could you tell me?

Need to go back and re-read all of the statements to understand what we were talking about it.

Turambar said:
Thirdly notice how Ginny relates what Harry wants to do to Fred and George's pranks when in fact the situation surrounding Harry is of course far more serious.

I said:
Yes, Ginny relates to Fred and George's pranks in Harry's situation. Because for Harry to talk to Sirius something needs to happens that distracts Umbridge's attention from Harry. Now having a bit of joke and distracting her from Harry, it's diverting her attention and leaves Harry to go and free his soul from that awful thoughts that he had. Which is very cleaver if I may add

We are talking about the general idea of jokes not one in specific.

There's no reason to doubt Harry, but there's this huge thing called Occlumency which Dumbledore wanted Harry to learn because Voldemort could use Legilimency to manipulate Harry's mind. Hermione is simply worried that what he dreamt is a trick and simply wants Harry to understand that it is a possibility, as well that it could be real. She wants him to keep his mind open to such possibility and to think clearly before he makes a mistake.

Yes there is no reason to doubt Harry. That's what I have been saying. But logic also goes against Hermione on this one because from the beginning the Order was hiding things from Harry. This on purpose because they were too small. Logic tells anybody that he wants Harry to block it so he won't know because he is too young.

I believe Hermione was more scared that Harry was about to go and save Sirius not knowing if it's real or not which could get him killed. Hermione gets quite worked up when Harry is about to do something drastic that could involve him getting hurt or even killed like in PoA and GoF.

Hermione does listen to Harry if not she wouldn't be arguing back his comments. What Harry doesn't do is listen to Hermione and think that the dream could be a trick on behalf of Voldemort.

And where does it say that Hermione takes Harry to Umbridge's office thinking she is going to show him that Sirius is there?

I don't agree Hermione showed being scared of Harry every time he got a temper tantrum. Hermione doesn't listen not only to Harry but to anybody who disagree with her. She only sees what she wants to see.

'OK,' said Hermione. 'Well then, Harry, you and I will be under the Invisibility Cloak and we'll sneak into the office and you can talk to Sirius -'

'He's not there, Hermione!'

'I mean, you can - can check whether Sirius is at home or not while I keep watch, I don't think you should be in there alone, Lee's already proved the windows a weak spot, sending those Nifflers through it.'

Hermione is still thinking that she is right and she is just going to show Harry that he is there. Clearly she is not hearing or analyzing what he is saying. She sees what she thinks.

If I'm not mistaken Ture meant the scene after your homegirl Ginny and Luna came in. That Harry and Hermione compromised. Only Harry and Hermione being that Harry and Hermione were the only ones arguing.

But what I'm asking is where is the compromising in that scene not when Ginny and Luna arrived.

Perhaps because Lupin maybe the one who will talk to Harry about Sirius. And of course, maybe Harry will be depressed in book 6, instead of angry.

Perhaps Lupin will talk to Harry. I agree with that.

Excuse me? I have to disagree. Hermione is clearly playing an important role in the novels, not above Harry of course, but around the same level as Dumbledore's. She is there to help Harry so her level of importance is more than other characters such as Ginny. I don't see how some H/G'ers are playing Ginny's importance (so far) in the novels above Hermione's.

Hermione with the same level of importance of Dumbledore? I clearly saw Dumbledore wayyy above anybody else in importance.

When was this? I don't remember JKR or Harry stating that Hermione was rude to him or Sirius?

Several times in OoP Harry was angry at Hermione for her comments regarding Sirius. Ron at one point tells her that is a little harsh and appeals to her sentiments. Instead she just goes at it. Something that it really distourb me because by now Hermione should know what Sirius means to Harry.

Ginny don't respect this if she did she didn't say "Well, that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily.
This is for sure not respect to say the other is stupid. That she trust Harrys judgement is even not right because she did say he was wrong to think they didn't want to look at him. This is his opinion and she told him first its stupid, second its wrong. Its not only Hermione. Ginny does just the same with the possing thing she think she is right the different Hermione knows it from books Ginny not.
About dealing with 6 brothers Its rather so that she runs by problems to her brothers for help this isn't dealing thats hiding.

And Hermione doesn't respect Harry either! If we are going to that area. 'Oh harry you are so naive' Clearly not a high regard for Harry's mind.

Difference in hear is that Ginny gives Harry proves of why she thinks he is wrong. Clearly being right about it also.

I disagree, this is kinda fears that she can't deal with Harry alone if he is in this mood. Its not respect this isn't the right word. If you care and you know he suffers you don't wait not in all world wait till he comes to you. I never heard of this to do so out off respect thats cruel to wait 42 hours till someone else comes and do this job and than sit there and tell him they wanted speak with him. Sorry I don't buy this. If you want than you do and not sit downstairs and wait till Hermione comes around. I'm pretty sure would Harry have a own family his mother didn't wait till his best female friend skip her trip and starts to speak to Harry.

I think cannon disagrees with you. This since Harry was a bit rude and she didn't back out almost crying or looking scared. She looked unabashed one time and the other time she reminded him that he didn't had to take that tone because she just wanted to help. If you care and respect the other person you will wait until they are ready to open up and do so.

I disagree he don't go to her because he knows from the very start its wrong to try and speak with Sirius.

Yes Harry knows is wrong but what Harry needs at that moment is not someone that tells him something that he already knows. He wants moral support which is what Ginny gives him in the library.

I again disagree Ginny does it not because she know its right, she do it for the trill. And Ginny don't understand Harry if she did than she did know its wrong to do. She don't ask if its not to risky she do run anyway to her brothers. Understanding is far more as to speak others after they mouth. I see there very different as you do. Its not that Ginny even think about the danger like you suggest Its rather thats for her a trill to proof herself thats something very different.

Please tell me where does it say that Ginny helped Harry for her own personal thrill. If I remember correctly she said that you think you can do anything if you got enough nerve (pharaphrased). Clearly implying that if needs to talk to Sirius and has enough nerves he will do it. Ginny is not the one who is going to talk to sirius is Harry the one who is going to talk to him.

A free soul without a school anymore thats is it what could had happen. At the end of the day before Fred and George start this Harry wished to stop it but he couldn't anymore this to "how right" this was. In the end he was with Hermione in agreement and if it was only in his mind. To this comes nothing did this changes this conversation with Sirius. James was still the same like in Snapes memorys.


Which shows that Harry can make his own decissions. He never said that he couldn't stop he says tha it was plan and that he could just abandon it and learn to live with it. Harry does have a brain that works out properly he doesn't need someone to tell him what to do. He wasn't with Hermione's agreement. Because if he would have been he wouldn't have talked to Sirius. But he did.

This scenes can be compared because its about opinions and advice. That Ginny did it directly isn't being concern is rather that she never did hear Hermione and Harry argue like that. She get there isn't something right because in all 5 books you never saw such a scene. This say something huge did happens whats dangerous.

Not to me those two things are two different situations. Ginny never heard Harry and Hermione argued? And here I though that she lived in 12GP.

Now i'm surprised at this because Ron was for sure not logical. Hermione had a point a **** good logical point that Dumbledore didn't want that Harry dreams this stuff. This alone proofs Ron wrong but this isn't all. If you compare this dream with the one about Mr Weasley. Harry can suddenly describe the surrounding a lot better but by the other dream only how he bites Mr Weasley. There isn't how many doors there are or anything else. To all questions Harry said "I dunno" thats more as strange

Yes to me he was very logical. THere was nothing to support Hermione's claim. Not even her claim that Dumbledore want him to block those dreams. There was a lot of base to think what Harry though.

She do and gives her answer to that but Ron and Harry don't listen. Right because all dreams were right this one have to be too though Dumbledore did everything to prefend Harry to dream more. Even Harry did suspect If he is a spy because Voldi could see through Harrys eyes. She do understand what he is saying. **** good otherwise she didn't start to beg and to say why this could be a trap.

Again see above.

Its not that Hermione is the only one is rather she is the only one who face him. Tells him how she think though he don't like it. Is honest to him what others are not. Thats the very point not that she is the only one who believes him.
Believing and just nod or to be silent isn't that what Hermione does but all others maybe Sirius not.

Not she is the only argumentative person that doesn't trust Harry's judgement over things. And not only Harry's anybody that thinks differently is wrong for Hermione.

Dumbledore did misread Harry's situation and didn't tell Harry because he did listen to his heart and not to his mind.

So that's Dumbledore's problem not Harry's. He wasn't misreading him he was going for what he though it was. He was quite clear on how Harry felt.

If we wait till Harry starts to speak than I suggest we see us back in book10 or till Harry is again that angered.

I do believe that we go thru a year in the HP books.

Hermione wasn't rude to Sirius and not to Harry. This friendship don't need healing because there wasn't a fall out thats between Harry and Ron a different story.

On Hermione and sirius I answered that above.

I know I read different books. First to tell someone he is in a paper a jerk its more hard as to tell things about Percy, ministery (what Hermione did too), about not wanting fame (Hermione said this too).
Its not to far because after 2 days Mr Weasley was alright again and she didn't ask after him not once as she was there. All what she did was to ask and to speak with Harry.
About DA it was pretty much both in another case she didn't beam like that.

Clearly Ginny understands it and symphathizes with it. For me it's just reaching to say that she went for Harry.

Thats your interpretation this don't be right. So its not clearly Hermiones brain thats kinda sad to say this because Harry himself don't think about her as just a brain.

Ask JKR that she was the one that tied up that quote with Hermione brilliance and intelligence.

Gily Ann

I'm sorry but Harry never sits between Neville and Seamus and thinks that he doesn't want to hear Hermione's nagging because she is telling him the truth. We don't get it even inferred. He let's us know his annoying feelings towards her actions. This not because she is telling him the truth but because she is annoying him.

And why does he think so? Because she tells him that what he already know that he is wrong. Sometimes is hard to see the truth in the eyes even for Harry thats why he is annoyed.

Logic tells anybody that he wants Harry to block it so he won't know because he is too young.

My logic is a little bit different as yours. Dreams about Voldemort= bad. There is nothing about the order is everything from POV Voldemorts why should block this dreams because of the order if Harry dreamed to be a snake which was controlled by Voldemort? Its about Voldemort not the order even Harry knows this thats why he should block it. Its goes pretty both sided even Snape did say that Voldemort is an expert of this.

And Hermione doesn't respect Harry either! If we are going to that area. 'Oh harry you are so naive' Clearly not a high regard for Harry's mind.

Difference in hear is that Ginny gives Harry proves of why she thinks he is wrong. Clearly being right about it also.

To be called naiv or stupid there lies worlds, She said naiv this isn't disrespectfull but call someone stupid this is very much respectless.
This aren't proves because she wasn't there and did talk to him, was she? So I can pretend I wanted but didn't do anything I'm sure my friend didn't believe a word of it.

I think cannon disagrees with you. This since Harry was a bit rude and she didn't back out almost crying or looking scared. She looked unabashed one time and the other time she reminded him that he didn't had to take that tone because she just wanted to help. If you care and respect the other person you will wait until they are ready to open up and do so.

I'm speaking about wanted speak with him as Hermione wasn't there. Ginny did never try to speak to Harry thats fact.

Yes Harry knows is wrong but what Harry needs at that moment is not someone that tells him something that he already knows. He wants moral support which is what Ginny gives him in the library.
Moral? Maybe. Support? possible but this don't make it right what Ginny did.

Ginny is not the one who is going to talk to sirius is Harry the one who is going to talk to him.

Thats the very different to Hermione she did go with Harry. So if they were caught than together and not like I tell you how to make and the danger lies by you alone. Its like telling how you friend can rob a money and you wash your hands in inocents.

He never said that he couldn't stop he says tha it was plan and that he could just abandon it and learn to live with it. Harry does have a brain that works out properly he doesn't need someone to tell him what to do. He wasn't with Hermione's agreement. Because if he would have been he wouldn't have talked to Sirius. But he did.

He was in agreement with Hermione. Harry couldn't stop Fred and George anymore. It would have been for nothing he isn't someone who let other risk they neck and than say No I can't anymore.


Not to me those two things are two different situations. Ginny never heard Harry and Hermione argued? And here I though that she lived in 12GP
In 12 G was it between Harry and Hermione and Ron. But there was it only between Harry and Hermione.

Ask JKR that she was the one that tied up that quote with Hermione brilliance and intelligence.

Brilliance and intelligence isn't just the brain its the heart, too.

Excuse me? I have to disagree. Hermione is clearly playing an important role in the novels, not above Harry of course, but around the same level as Dumbledore's. She is there to help Harry so her level of importance is more than other characters such as Ginny. I don't see how some H/G'ers are playing Ginny's importance (so far) in the novels above Hermione's.

Hermione is not around the level of Dumbledore. Dumbledore is not only booksmart and clever, but he has wisdom and knowledge that age and experience brings. He defeated the dark wizard Grindewald and is obviously able to perform magic at a deeper level than any other character we have seen except Voldemort.

H/Gers are not placing Ginny in importance above any of the other characters, unless it is for romance, which I believe she will be Harry's love interest. I believe all of Harry's friends have an equal contribution to make to the story. Hermione is no more important to him than the others.

I disagree he don't go to her because he knows from the very start its wrong to try and speak with Sirius.

Harry doesn't want to hear Hermione nag at him and whether or not Harry feels that talking to Sirius is the right thing or wrong thing to do, it is his decision. He is 15 years old and doesn't need anyone to hand hold him, for heavens sake! That is one critical reason why a romantic relationship with Hermione won't work; she treats him like he is too stupid to think for himself.

Yes Harry knows is wrong but what Harry needs at that moment is not someone that tells him something that he already knows. He wants moral support which is what Ginny gives him in the library.

Of course he wants moral support and this is the job of a romantic partner!



I think cannon disagrees with you. This since Harry was a bit rude and she didn't back out almost crying or looking scared. She looked unabashed one time and the other time she reminded him that he didn't had to take that tone because she just wanted to help. If you care and respect the other person you will wait until they are ready to open up and do so.

She is simply showing that she is not going to take any of Harry's ****. I've heard time and time again how Ginny is supposed to be "weak", but clearly here, she is holding her own with Harry as an equal.

In regards to respect, Hermione is a poor example of one of the characters' respecting Harry wishes, as she continues to nag him, belittle him, and boss him around. This behavior is not respectful. She disrespects the house-elves by trying to trick them into freedom, against their will.

Yes everyone is different. But, it gives her experience on boys.

:whistle:

Ask your shipmates when Hermione push Harry to open the door they were the one's who stated that they hammer the door and yell and etc. Also it wasn't over a day it was around a day that Harry hadn't been talking. I do believe that some people need more time than that.

I don't.


I'm sorry but Harry never sits between Neville and Seamus and thinks that he doesn't want to hear Hermione's nagging because she is telling him the truth. We don't get it even inferred. He let's us know his annoying feelings towards her actions. This not because she is telling him the truth but because she is annoying him.

Oh it's inferred that he knows what he's doing is wrong. So it's related to the fact he keeps avoiding Hermione because he knows that she's right when she nags to him. He knows what he's doing is wrong so much to the point he wants to back out, but doesn't because of the Twins.


Yes there is no reason to doubt Harry. That's what I have been saying. But logic also goes against Hermione on this one because from the beginning the Order was hiding things from Harry. This on purpose because they were too small. Logic tells anybody that he wants Harry to block it so he won't know because he is too young.

Okay what you said above confused me a bit, so if I answer incorrectly, I'll apologize now.

Remember that Hermione never wanted to hide anything from Harry. She knew how he would react if they kept things from him during ther summer and she was right. Because of hiding things from him Harry become "Angry!Harry." Dumbledore recognized that he made a mistake in thinking that just because Harry is too young he shouldn't be told things.



I don't agree Hermione showed being scared of Harry every time he got a temper tantrum. Hermione doesn't listen not only to Harry but to anybody who disagree with her. She only sees what she wants to see.

'OK,' said Hermione. 'Well then, Harry, you and I will be under the Invisibility Cloak and we'll sneak into the office and you can talk to Sirius -'

'He's not there, Hermione!'

'I mean, you can - can check whether Sirius is at home or not while I keep watch, I don't think you should be in there alone, Lee's already proved the windows a weak spot, sending those Nifflers through it.'

Hermione is still thinking that she is right and she is just going to show Harry that he is there. Clearly she is not hearing or analyzing what he is saying. She sees what she thinks.

Has it every occured to anyone that maybe Hermione said the above because was trying to make herself believe he was there? As in she was so worried he wasn't she lied to herself so that she wouldn't worry. Am I making any sense?


But what I'm asking is where is the compromising in that scene not when Ginny and Luna arrived.

That is one whole scene even if Ginny and Luna came in later. So yes the compromise is when they came into the room.

See this is how it went down:
Before H/Hr compromised
Harry wanted to go right away to the MoM to see if Sirius was there. Hermione wanted to make Harry realize it could be a trick.

What was compromised in this scene
Harry agreed to Hermione's plan to check if Sirius was at home before going to the MoM.
Hermione agreed to go with Harry to Umbridge's office to help him find out the truth of Sirius's whereabouts instead of arguing with Harry.

They both backed down from their previous arguments to get to the matter at hand: Is Sirius at the MoM or at 12GP?


Hermione with the same level of importance of Dumbledore? I clearly saw Dumbledore wayyy above anybody else in importance.
-----------------------------------
Prongs Sr:
Hermione is not around the level of Dumbledore. Dumbledore is not only booksmart and clever, but he has wisdom and knowledge that age and experience brings. He defeated the dark wizard Grindewald and is obviously able to perform magic at a deeper level than any other character we have seen except Voldemort.

I'm talking about when JKR said that if you need to listen to whatever a character has to say it would be Dumbledore and Hermione. That's why I think they're around the same level. Didn't mean to say she is going to defeat some great Wizard.


Several times in OoP Harry was angry at Hermione for her comments regarding Sirius. Ron at one point tells her that is a little harsh and appeals to her sentiments. Instead she just goes at it. Something that it really distourb me because by now Hermione should know what Sirius means to Harry.

This disturbs me. It's as if Hermione can't state her opinion on something or someone. Just because Sirius means a lot to Harry doesn't mean that Hermione shouldn't voice her opinions on him to Harry instead of being a hypocrite. And what did she say that was so harsh? That Sirius sees Harry as James. Wasn't that the truth? Didn't Sirius himself say that Harry's less like his father? Wasn't he disappointed that Harry wasn't like his father then? I think I'm getting off topic... :shrug:


And Hermione doesn't respect Harry either! If we are going to that area. 'Oh harry you are so naive' Clearly not a high regard for Harry's mind.

Oh wow! Hermione called Harry naive once and she doesn't respect him. Gee, I wonder what kind of respect she has for Ron then... :huh:


Yes Harry knows is wrong but what Harry needs at that moment is not someone that tells him something that he already knows. He wants moral support which is what Ginny gives him in the library.

Ginny doesn't give Harry moral support, she gives him an out for the sadness he's in. If she were giving him moral support the conversation would have been deep. She would know why Harry wanted to talk to Sirius and that Harry was thinking of breaking into Umbridge's office. Then she'd tell him what would be the right and wrong reasons for breaking into Umbridge's office. She doesn't do any of that, so she is not showing moral support. She's being supportive in wanting to help, but that's as far as it goes.


Please tell me where does it say that Ginny helped Harry for her own personal thrill. If I remember correctly she said that you think you can do anything if you got enough nerve (pharaphrased). Clearly implying that if needs to talk to Sirius and has enough nerves he will do it. Ginny is not the one who is going to talk to sirius is Harry the one who is going to talk to him.

Clearly she sounds like Sirius who thinks Harry should be like his father and do things just for the thrill of it instead of thinking what the repercussion would be. Also, Ginny isn't the one who is going to talk to Sirius so the repercussion wouldn't affect her in the slightest way. The only thing what would happen is that she would learn to find out things fully instead of just going with the flow. She's trying to be cool in front of Harry, but what she's doing is helping him into trouble.

Has it every occured to anyone that maybe Hermione said the above because was trying to make herself believe he was there? As in she was so worried he wasn't she lied to herself so that she wouldn't worry. Am I making any sense?

You make sense Grace very much indeed. I thought this somehow by myself. That Hermione can't believe Harry because this would mean she has to worry thats why she search after anything so he hears her. Even beg he look after if Sirius is even away from 12 G. I'm not enterly sure that didn't believe him. She did believe him from the start but couldn't let It happen. Thats why I think her reaction to the whole prophecy would be interesting because I doubt she believes anything about this.


To something else here is a thread about Ron (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=18566) by hawkmoon. I think he has an interesting theory and this leads me again to the mirror scene. I told you its important even in this case. The theory is that not Ron gets jealousy in book6 its Harry. And I agree because if you look Ron get both his deepest desire and Harrys. He has a family and get that what he saw in the mirror. But Harry didn't get anything. This can lead to another fall out. We saw how Harry react to as Ron get the badge he wasn't happy he did even start to think like the twins. This leads me to Hermione in book6 we will see the different and I believe she is again at Harrys side and not Ron's.

:whistle:
Oh it's inferred that he knows what he's doing is wrong. So it's related to the fact he keeps avoiding Hermione because he knows that she's right when she nags to him. He knows what he's doing is wrong so much to the point he wants to back out, but doesn't because of the Twins.
Actually, he tells Hermione that he can think about the consequences for himself, which he clearly has, and she ignores his protest. She may be right, but that's not the point, Harry is a big boy, he can make decisions and past a certain point, Hermione needs to let him be independent.

Okay what you said above confused me a bit, so if I answer incorrectly, I'll apologize now.

Remember that Hermione never wanted to hide anything from Harry. She knew how he would react if they kept things from him during ther summer and she was right. Because of hiding things from him Harry become "Angry!Harry." Dumbledore recognized that he made a mistake in thinking that just because Harry is too young he shouldn't be told things.
I would argue that if you know Harry at all you know he isn't happy with beign left in the dark. Sirius also knew that that summer was particularly difficult for Harry. Dumbledore's mistake on not telling Harry was (in respect to the Order, and distancing himself from Harry) intended to protect him, not because he ws too young, but because he thought it would help him. This is different from the prophecy issue. Dumbledore knew perfectly well what his reaction would be, he acted under what he thought would be Harry's best interest.

every occured to anyone that maybe Hermione said the above because was trying to make herself believe he was there? As in she was so worried he wasn't she lied to herself so that she wouldn't worry. Am I making any sense?
Valid point and we can't rule that out. However, we should look at Hermione's history. While compassionate, she tends to have an ethnocentric attitude. In other words, her way is the best, the correct, the most logical, etc. When confronted with a serious situation, she tends to be blind towards the input of others. Hermione is very vulnerable because of this (among other things). She overlooks the possibility that she could be wrong. An example of this is the house elves. She is so intent on her idealism that she disregards the FEELINGS and OPINIONS of the very people she is trying to help.

That is one whole scene even if Ginny and Luna came in later. So yes the compromise is when they came into the room.

See this is how it went down:
Before H/Hr compromised
Harry wanted to go right away to the MoM to see if Sirius was there. Hermione wanted to make Harry realize it could be a trick.

What was compromised in this scene
Harry agreed to Hermione's plan to check if Sirius was at home before going to the MoM.
Hermione agreed to go with Harry to Umbridge's office to help him find out the truth of Sirius's whereabouts instead of arguing with Harry.

They both backed down from their previous arguments to get to the matter at hand: Is Sirius at the MoM or at 12GP?
So they compromise. Or in other words, they talk, trade opinions, and work something out. Hermione is not unique in compromising with Harry. Ginny has compromised with him as well. I think the point here is that Ginny knows when to compromise and when to trust Harry's intinct, or let him be his own person.

I'm talking about when JKR said that if you need to listen to whatever a character has to say it would be Dumbledore and Hermione. That's why I think they're around the same level. Didn't mean to say she is going to defeat some great Wizard.
JKR said if you wanted to find something out, in the case of these characters, they can carry exposition well. That means if you want to know something, like a fact or a reason, Hermione is a believable character to do this with. For example, many things about the magical world are found out via Hermione, i.e. the fact that Hogwarts is hidden, the facts about the Tri-Wiard Tournament and the Polyjuice Potion. This does NOT, by any means, indicate that Hermione's opinion is always truth. Let us remember that Jo herself brought up how Hermione can be flawed, there are two or three occasions on which this is mentioned, the most vivid in my memory is about how Hermione offends the house elves.
She has also said that she considers Hermione one of the most vulnerable characters in the story (impying this is because of her intense reliance on fact, proof, tangible things,etc.) So just because Hermione thinks something doens't make it fact. As for her being as intelligent as Dumbledore, I would say that Dumbledore beats Hermione as of now. If Hermione will become a great witch in her own right and be more powerful than he is someday.....then we'll find out. But I think Hermione and Dumbledore have flaws in different places, and I think Dumbledore is meant to be uniquely powerful and wise.

This disturbs me. It's as if Hermione can't state her opinion on something or someone. Just because Sirius means a lot to Harry doesn't mean that Hermione shouldn't voice her opinions on him to Harry instead of being a hypocrite. And what did she say that was so harsh? That Sirius sees Harry as James. Wasn't that the truth? Didn't Sirius himself say that Harry's less like his father? Wasn't he disappointed that Harry wasn't like his father then? I think I'm getting off topic... :shrug:

Hermione should, by all means, state her opinion, even when Ron and Harry disagree. However, she should open herself to the possibility that she isn't always correct.


Oh wow! Hermione called Harry naive once and she doesn't respect him. Gee, I wonder what kind of respect she has for Ron then... :huh:
I think it's important to note that Hermione and Ginny have different ways of respecting and doing what is best for Harry. I think the argument here is that Ginny's reactions and dealings with him are more balanced and appropriate from a significant other status.



Ginny doesn't give Harry moral support, she gives him an out for the sadness he's in. If she were giving him moral support the conversation would have been deep. She would know why Harry wanted to talk to Sirius and that Harry was thinking of breaking into Umbridge's office. Then she'd tell him what would be the right and wrong reasons for breaking into Umbridge's office. She doesn't do any of that, so she is not showing moral support. She's being supportive in wanting to help, but that's as far as it goes.
Actually, I thinkshe knows Harry better than we all think she does, and she understands that if Harry hasn't told Ron or Hermione the depth of what is really bothering him, she would just be prying and poking at a sensitive issue. So instead, she recognizes his desperate state, she trusts his instincts, and she helps in the best way she knows how. This isn't any old "outlet", it was drastically affecting Harry's already delicate and frustrated mental situation. She doesn't need to tell him the consequences, if anyone understands the extent or Umbridge's wrath, it's Harry. And he even brings up that he knows the ossibility of getting caught by Umbridge.

Clearly she sounds like Sirius who thinks Harry should be like his father and do things just for the thrill of it instead of thinking what the repercussion would be. Also, Ginny isn't the one who is going to talk to Sirius so the repercussion wouldn't affect her in the slightest way. The only thing what would happen is that she would learn to find out things fully instead of just going with the flow. She's trying to be cool in front of Harry, but what she's doing is helping him into trouble.
I see NO evidence that she is acting for thrills. She thinks about the represcussions, but she decides that Harry's well being is worth it. Is that so wrong? I severely disagree that Ginny goes with the flow and tries to be cool in front of Harry. She showed on several occasions that she is NOT afraid of standing up to him or putting him in his place when he needs it. Int his situation, things were different, and I think she was being an excellent judge of what Harry needed.


Got to go all, I see the thread is going back to those long and convoluted debates we all love so much!

Dumbledore the wise:
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Awesome post, Dumbledore the Wise! You summed about my feelings on the differences between the two girls brilliantly! I've got to save the post for my personal archives! :tu:

Good work FP, Grace.

Here's my first lot of replies:

Posted by Vash:
Each and every book, there seems to be a continuing pattern that Harry and Hermione get closer in each book as the novels progress. And as this pattern reachs the ending stages, there will be a Harry and Hermione coupling if this pattern continues.

Good point. I noticed that with OOTP it took a while for Harry and Hermione to start to get back to that closeness, not really until they were heading back to Hogwarts despite the welcome and prefect scenes.

Posted by Vash:
I thought it was very symbolical how she ended the chapter up with saying Harry and Hermione walked together up the stairs to Hogwarts. It creates the very strong imagery IMO of a couple walking down the isle - and it definately seemed significant and works well with many of the other symbolic and great imagery that JKR has created between the two

Yes especially after the sombre symbolism of Ron being carried away by the crowd which felt more like a funeral procession rather than a cheerful celebration.

Posted by GilyAnn:
Well to me it shows that Ginny knows that other people have a different opinion and respects that. She also trust people's judgement. Believing that you are right above others is just a character flaw that Hermione has. I believe that Ginny is a very suitable partner for Harry because off course she has already dealt with 6 brothers. She knows what boys are made off.

You can still respect other people's opinions while putting forward alternative ones. Blindly trusting other people's opinions and judgements is not wise. You are then following like sheep. Not all boys are the same and none of the Weasleys are like Harry.

Posted by GilyAnn
So I take this as when Hermione snaps at Harry and calls him naive in a moment and then leaves. This when something is affecting then she has no commitment to Harry? I've never though about that.
To answer your question A requires more commitment to Harry. But not in a way you tried to show it as if she doesn't care. A requires the person to wait until the other one is ready to talk. It shows respect for his feelings and it shows that even though you are dying to talk to him. You respect his feelings, when he is ready to talk he'll go and do it. Just like he did when he got to 12GP in xmas. Pushing people to do what you want it shows lack of maturity and a very high Ego.

I don't understand what you mean by your first paragraph. Think of someone who has a drinking or severe weight problem does it show you care to leave them to it until they are ready to do something about it or does it show you care more by trying to encourage them to sort the problem out? There are different ways of dealing with people and Molly's sympathy had no effect on Harry. Neither did Ron and Ginny's method of staying away.

Posted by GilyAnn:
Harry knows that Hermione is going to NAG him and that's why he doesn't talk to her. Is one of the things on why he avoids her. He doesn't want to hear her with his nagging and speaches.
Also Ginny knows what danger is but that doesn't stop her from doing what she feels is right. Even if it's dangerous. It's obvious that Harry's doubts are consuming him in this moment. It is a necessesity that Harry does something. I can imagine Hermione in that scene. She probably would have had a fit (just like she did) and start nagging Harry. Besides it's not in her character to be that understandable to Harry. That Scene wouldn't have been the same with Hermione in it. In the library part Ginny showed an understanding to Harry feelings that it hasn't been shown frequently.


Yes, Ginny relates to Fred and George's pranks in Harry's situation. Because for Harry to talk to Sirius something needs to happens that distracts Umbridge's attention from Harry. Now having a bit of joke and distracting her from Harry, it's diverting her attention and leaves Harry to go and free his soul from that awful thoughts that he had. Which is very cleaver if I may add.
Harry knows both of them know it is wrong and that Hermione will give it to him straight, unlike Ginny. On the question of understanding both Hermione and Ginny initially thought Harry was down because of Cho. No, Ginny's reference was to Harry wanting to talk to Sirius while Umbridge was on alert. At that stage she had no idea how that was to be achieved. That's the point: she was going to go to Fred and George with the problem and get them to sort it out. She had given no thought herself to how it could be done i.e. by diversion.

Posted by GilyAnn:
So Ginny gets a hint that Sirius is in trouble although she doesn't have the full details. So in there she is being concern and willing to risk anything for someone she cares about. That being Sirius not Harry. She also says so when they are about to go in the DoM

Why is that a positive? Again, GilyAnn, it shows Ginny deciding to support something without having all the facts, without thinking things through. It's complete recklessness. That would NOT be good should she have a position of more influence over Harry i.e. as his girlfriend.

Posted by GilyAnn:
Actually in that scene even though we know that Hermione could be right and is. The logical thinking is Ron's not Hermione's. Hermione has no prove of what she is saying. On the contrary Harry has never been wrong before. All the atacks were real. There was no reason to doubt him.

No way. Hermione points out the obvious holes in Harry's version of events. Just because the snake dream was correct doesn't mean this dream shouldn't be questioned. That's Hermione's intelligence showing. She's not a blind follower.

Posted by GilyAnn:
I see three people debating not compramising in the above. No one is saying you do this while I do that.

The quote was in reference to Hermione coming up with a plan to get into Umbridge's office.

Posted by GilyAnn:
Yes she does. She gets more out of Harry by pleading than with naggin. OoP is full of outside characters that don't believe in Harry because of all that has been going around. Ron believes him, Ginny believes him, all of the order believes him. Now if H/Hr shippers are suggesting that Hermione is the only one that understands and believes Harry that to me it's far. There are a list of people that clearly believe in Harry and support him. All and most unrelated to shipping.

This is nothing to do with the point I was making. Of course other people believe in and understand Harry, but that's a completely different issue.

Posted by GilyAnn:
Dumbledore never misreads Harry's situation. He acts thinking that he is doing the best for him. Which isn't.

He does. He admits he does to Harry.

Posted by GilyAnn
Snape's stop teaching Harry because he is a resesntfull jerk. Snape and Sirius were at war because Snape again was being a resentfull jerk rubbing in on Sirius what he was doing. This knowing that Sirius was going to be mad at him.

Weasley's and Sirius not getting Harry out. Once again I believe that Harry needs to talk on his terms not on other people's terms.

As I said: "ultimately don't quite care enough or they allow his behaviour to deflect them...don't have his best interests at heart."

Posted by GilyAnn
Ron not letting Hermione talk about Sirius - Well I'm glad he didn't let her. She was quite rude to Sirius and to Harry. That friendship needs healing and some time before that subject could be touched again. Doing so now will makes things worst. Besides it's not only Ron who stops Hermione from talking to Sirius it's JKR who does that. Clearly for some reason JKr does not want Harry to talk about that with them. Why is good question for book 6.

Harry wanted to talk about it. JKR creates a nice scene between Harry and Luna and finishes with a goodbye scene that ends with Ron, then Hermione. Ginny is strangely absent.

Thanks Prongsie, sometimes I think we interpret the books the same way.
But Turumbar....where does it ever say Harry wants to talk about Sirius? Here we're talking about with Hermione specifically. Quote please. It says that when Hermione brought it up, he was glad Ron shushed her, he wasn't sure how he felt about it.

GilyAnn, Prongs Sr, DumbledoreTheWise take a big :clap: from me. Excellent posts.

Ginny does show spunk towards Harry when he is wrong and she is standing up to him as an equal, not cowering, and pleading like Hermione does with Harry when he is extremely angry. Ginny is hardly self-centered. I would think that Harry could write a book on that particular subject.

I couldn't agree more. This is so true.

Ana Banana

I have already said my reasons of why I ship H/G...I believe CoS has many clues....

Oh really, care to post some of these clues?? Because all you've been doing for the last couple of posts is saying how H/Hr have absolutely no evidence and how ridiculous my posts are.
And if you haven't seen the clues for H/Hr ever...then I don't see why you are arguing.

Where in the world did I post that?! I DO see a plethora of things for H/Hr, more than any other ship in fact; that is why I'm shipping them. Why in the world would I ship them if I don't see anything in them?

I have asked many times for something that points to a romance, not a friendship. I haven't seen anything.

Just because *you* haven't seen anything doesn't mean that they're not there.

It seems like you call close minded anyone who doesn't see any romantic feelings between Harry and Hermione,

To you, it may *seem* like it, but as I have said before we all ALL close minded people, including myself, or else we wouldn't be stubborn enough to argue about fictional romance.

I, as well as you do, have the right to ship any couple that I want.

Of course; no one is stopping you.

Harry is annoyed by her, the reasons are she points the truth bla bla....but at the end of the day, he is annoyed by her....

All this "bla bla" as you have stated, could have saved Sirius' life, and may eventually save Harry's life. I doubt that Harry would find it annoying then.

Being dissed by his school doesn't have anything to do with Hermione not being fun.....Where is she fun??

Did Harry out rightedly say that Hermione is not fun? All he said was that Hermione is different from Ron, which is true, and that there is more hanging around in the library (to prepare for the TWT) and there is a lot less laughter, which is reasonable since Harry wasn't exactly in a good mood. As far as your speculation that Harry thinks that Hermione is boring, OotP certainly says otherwise.

I didn't call you close-minded....

Errr... yes you did

you should think that maybe YOU are close minded

But, I don't mind; really, because I'm open minded enough to admit that I'm a bit close-minded when it comes to H/Hr.

But you don't expect me to stay quiet when someone calls me that....

Unlike some people...

***********
GillyAnn

But Hermione conforts Ron. Why do I say this? Because the feelings that she explained to Harry where Ron's feeligns.

But had she explained Harry's feelings to Ron? We don't know, because Hermione left the Great Hall to seek out Harry.

She understood him (if she agreed or not that's another matter) but in Harry's eyes the reaction she justifies is Ron's.

She doesn't justify Ron for abandoning Harry in times of need; she is merely pointing out the obvious "Ron's jealous". Harry is the only one who can't tell because he IS Harry, and couldn't possibly imagine why Ron would be jealous of him.

So she had to talk to him, hear him. etc. Is it really that incredible that Ron and Hermione can be friends?

The first portion is off text; the latter part: I do not think that its so incredible that they can be friends, but I do feel that Hermione and Harry are closer.

Wasn't Hermione said to be going from one to the other?

She did, but does she divide her time equally between the two friends? We don't know, but from the looks of it, she doesn't hang out with Ron much when Harry isn't there.

Didn't she tried to get them togeuther for hogsmade?

Interestingly enough, she chose to go with Harry.

For me that time is equal.I would give Hermione also a break. I never even though that could be shipping related. I though it showed too friends (Hermione and Ginny) toguether.

It doesn't embellish or show Hermione and Ginny's friendship because Harry only describes Hermione and Ginny as both being there; JKR doesn't make any dialog or interaction between Hermione and Ginny or Harry and Ginny when Harry was there. Although this is a wonderful opportunity to show a glimpse of Ginny's character, JKR didn't take it.

It showed for me that Hermione had a life besides being with Harry and Ron.

Eating breakfast with another girl does not show Hermione's other life, because the trio are best friends. This scene only shows the difference in Hermione's friendships with Harry and Ron.

Because Hermione and Ginny's are being 14 and 13 there!

Ginny is not involved, and as many of H/Hr shippers pointed out, Hermione is an old soul. I doubt that she would act care-free when her two best friends are jumping down each other's throats.

Ron and Harry's friendship is being tested but I think that's what save Hermione from going crazy.

Harry and Ron's friendship is being tested. Frankly, the fact that Ron abandoned Harry definitely shows the weakness in their friendships. At the same time though, JKR chose to embellish the strength in Harry and Hermione's friendship, and also, shows that when Hermione isn't hanging out with Harry and consolating him, she doesn't go and comfort Ron.

She became even closer to Ginny during GoF.

Hermione and Ginny's friendship has never been mentioned before; eating breakfast at the same table doesn't show "closeness" in anything in that period of time.

I don't know what age you are but still at 34 for me being with the girls is still one of the must funs things!

Yep, but we do not see any interaction or dialog between Ginny and Hermione pre OotP, so we didn't know whether it was "fun" or not, because we didn't know what they were talking about or whether they were talking at all.

I think JKR showed there the closeness of Hermione and Ginny's friendship.

I think not. JKR had never shown Hermione and Ginny interaction, and even the glimpses in GoF doesn't display anything because they never talked for more than two sentences together.


Honestly speaking. You really believe that's copying?

You said that she "copys". I just think that it's an insult to her originality.

I don't, you just addapt it to your writting.

How?

More than half of the things in the HP universe are not original.

The "things" might not be original, but the plot isn't part of the "things", or else, all the books would be the same.

They are very much copied or borrow from history... It's the combination of those things what makes it fun.

And each author has different combinations.

I'm sorry but that's how I understood it.

You're forgiven for misunderstanding my posts.

************

Hi DumbledoretheWise:

From what we know, Hermione probably talked to Ron that morning, and Ron isn't exactly good at hiding his emotions, especially when he's angry or jealous.

Exactly, so it goes along with my thinking that Ron's jealousy is blatant. It doesn't take much preception to realize that Ron is jealous of Harry.

But it's important to note that Hermione is very perceptive.

She is very preceptive, but she doesn't "need" to be preceptive for Ron, because Ron's emotions are obvious, while she does need her preception to see through Harry's feelings.

That means she's perceptive when it comes to Harry and Ron, or even sometimes lesser characters.

See above reply.


In this situation, she knows that Ron is jealous and seems to understand his feelings (even if she doesn't agree with them), in fact she understands them so well that she defends Ron in front of Harry.

I disagree. Hermione isn't defending Ron to Harry; in fact, she is explaining to Harry that Ron is jealous. She names a few examples of the source of Ron's jealousy, but as you've stated, she doesn't agree with them, therefore, she can't understand him, because understanding requires at least a common ground.

But she also understands that Harry's life is in danger, she understands that this is a desperate situation, and that Harry needs her more at that moment than Ron does.

At that point, Voldemort hasn't made any appearances and there haven't been any open threats to Harry's life. In fact, they didn't know much about the tasks yet, so Harry's life wasn't in any immediate danger. So staying more with Harry has nothing to do with Voldemort or keeping him safe, but it does have to do with understanding. Knowing Harry didn't like attention or crowds, she took a stack of toasts to him rather than have him face the school.

It is my opinion that she would have done the same for Ron had the situation been reversed.

I doubt that she would have to, because as we've clearly seen in OotP, Ron loves attention; Hermione wouldn't have to head him off because Ron would probably want to enjoy this attention.


Actually, Harry was waiting for Hermione to finish breakfast, which she was eating with Ginny. Hermione knows that having all three of them in the same place creates a lot of tension.

Actually, Hermione didn't know that Harry was going to meet her there. Harry had just found out the previous night that the first task was dragons; so the next morning, he immediate went to the great hall to get Hermione; he found Hermione and Ginny sitting together; they didn't head down to the Great Hall together.


Remember when she wanted to slyly meet up with Ron in the Three Broomsticks?

She did want to repair their friendship, but Harry saw through it; however, she approached Harry first to go with her to Hogsmeade; she didn't even mention Ron until Harry asked "But don't you want to go with Ron though?"

Hanging out with Ron creates a lot of tension between the three of them, and still, this is early on in the Triwizard Tournament.

Yes, there was a lot of tension between Ron and Harry early in the TWT, but there isn't suppose to be tension between Ron and Hermione or Harry and Hermione because Ron and Harry were fighting, not Hermione. However, Hermione was clearly not as close with Ron as with Harry when they were fighting. For example, when Hermione and Harry went to Hogsmeade, Ron didn't greet or talk with Hermione. Although Harry was there, he was under the invisiblity cloak, so Ron had no reason not to talk Hermione. From Ron's perspective, Hermione was sitting alone at a table writing in a notebook; so why didn't Ron come and sit with Hermione?

Harry himself was thinking of running away from Hogwarts things were so bad. Hermione, once again, knew that Harry needed her more than Ron did, and made choices to ensure that she would be able to be there for him.

Exactly. This understanding is what makes me ship Harry and Hermione.

Cheers!

Polaris

Nice posts Turambar, FP, Grace and others

I see that the H/G ship loves to **** Hermione for doing and **** Hermione for not doing

Ginny does show spunk towards Harry when he is wrong and she is standing up to him as an equal, not cowering, and pleading like Hermione does with Harry when he is extremely angry. Ginny is hardly self-centered. I would think that Harry could write a book on that particular subject.

Here Prongs Sr. condemns Hermione for being afraid of Harry and not standing up to him. Omitting the fact that Hermione was bound and determined to get through to Harry and that she did despite her fear while Harry had basically dismissed Ginny like Ginny's mother did at the dinner table at 12G.

And here

Actually, he tells Hermione that he can think about the consequences for himself, which he clearly has, and she ignores his protest. She may be right, but that's not the point, Harry is a big boy, he can make decisions and past a certain point, Hermione needs to let him be independent.

And here DumbledoretheWise condemns her for the same thing that Prongs Sr. praised in Ginny. And DumbledoretheWise ignores the fact that Harry tries to convince Hermione that he is right after he tells Ginny that its non of her business and simply swears at Luna and thinks that the last thing he needs is a conversation with Luna Lovegood.

One could ask oneself why does Harry try to convince Hermione so? Why not just go. Surely Harry could do it by himself? Why does he want Hermione with him? He tries to convince her and simply tells the others (except Ron) to go away and stay out of it.

sometimes I think we interpret the books the same way.

Probably why you're on the same ship. But one shouldn't be too suprised.

Actually, he tells Hermione that he can think about the consequences for himself, which he clearly has, and she ignores his protest. She may be right, but that's not the point, Harry is a big boy, he can make decisions and past a certain point, Hermione needs to let him be independent.

So they compromise. Or in other words, they talk, trade opinions, and work something out. Hermione is not unique in compromising with Harry. Ginny has compromised with him as well. I think the point here is that Ginny knows when to compromise and when to trust Harry's intinct, or let him be his own person.

Do you have some text to back these up?

She has also said that she considers Hermione one of the most vulnerable characters in the story (impying this is because of her intense reliance on fact, proof, tangible things,etc.) So just because Hermione thinks something doens't make it fact. As for her being as intelligent as Dumbledore, I would say that Dumbledore beats Hermione as of now. If Hermione will become a great witch in her own right and be more powerful than he is someday.....then we'll find out. But I think Hermione and Dumbledore have flaws in different places, and I think Dumbledore is meant to be uniquely powerful and wise

The interview to back up the first part of this? The vulnerable part. One will simply point out that the different flaws would make Hermione a uniquely powerful and wise witch in her own right. But wise and powerful none the less.

I think it's important to note that Hermione and Ginny have different ways of respecting and doing what is best for Harry. I think the argument here is that Ginny's reactions and dealings with him are more balanced and appropriate from a significant other status.

Of course one will **** her either way as proven at top of this post. Which goes to prove that a H/G simply cannot see H/Hr (can't or won't, don't know-don't care) but will not approach the possibility of H/Hr objectively.

Got to go all, I see the thread is going back to those long and convoluted debates we all love so much!

The point of your statement here is????????

I absolutely agree, Gily Ann. Some H/Hrs are placing Hermione's importance in the novels above Harry's.

:rotfl: :lol:

I think that this shows the weakness of the H/G more than anything else. The H/G cannot see that Hermione adds to Harry making him a stronger person than before. They seem to think that viewing Hermione as a strong female lead takes away from Harry. They do not for some reason see Harry and Hermione adding to the story, even though it is interesting that this is completely natural. One is born into a family yet one does not feel whole so one goes out and searches for their mate, signifigant other, better half, use whatever term you wish but one looks for the one that adds to themselves. That takes them to a level they haven't been at before. No we are not placing Hermione above Harry, we just see that Harry and Hermione togeather adds to Harry's strength and adds to Harry as a person.

This ranks up with the one about we don't want the Trio to change or break up so its Hr/R and H/G all the way. Of course then one has to ignore that the Trio still has to change and even the OBHWF would be a next step in the evolution of the Trio. Unless you see them all living in the same house then the Trio still must change. So if you ship Hr/R and H/G and say its because you don't want the Trio to change then you are not thinking it through to its logical end. Even the OBHWF is not the Trio and the Trio will have to change for the OBHWF to come about.

Cheers!

PS I should say that I was speaking for myself when I said that Hermione adds to Harry and not takes away from him. I don't see a strong Hermione taking anything away from Harry but I speak only for myself.

Yep, but we do not see any interaction or dialog between Ginny and Hermione pre OotP, so we didn't know whether it was "fun" or not, because we didn't know what they were talking about or whether they were talking at all.
they speak at poa laugh at gof(isn't laughing fun?).we didn't know how close they were before ootp,but ginny told hermione that she didnt like harry anymore and about her relationship with michael corner(all this in gof,even though we and harry learned it in ootp).so they were talking for sure and i think they were quite close,too.

Hi DumbledoretheWise:
Exactly, so it goes along with my thinking that Ron's jealousy is blatant. It doesn't take much preception to realize that Ron is jealous of Harry.
Good, so we agree. If you wouldn't mind, could you please explain to me how you think this "blatant" jealousy from Ron is different from what I perceive as blatant jealousy regarding Hermione and Krum?

She is very preceptive, but she doesn't "need" to be preceptive for Ron, because Ron's emotions are obvious, while she does need her preception to see through Harry's feelings.
Perhaps, but I mean that she seems to see beyond the surface level feelings in both cases.
I disagree. Hermione isn't defending Ron to Harry; in fact, she is explaining to Harry that Ron is jealous. She names a few examples of the source of Ron's jealousy, but as you've stated, she doesn't agree with them, therefore, she can't understand him, because understanding requires at least a common ground.
I do think she is defending Ron in a sense. Notice that I said she understands Ron's reasons, but doesn't agree with them. You don't need to agree with something to understand it. I understand a lot of things that I don't agree with, but that's just me. For example, I can understand the reasoning behind H/Hr, but I don't agree with it. I can understand the reasoning of why people do certain things, even if I think they made the wrong decisions. Perhaps it's just me, apparently Libra's are supposed to be good at seeing all sides. :)

At that point, Voldemort hasn't made any appearances and there haven't been any open threats to Harry's life. In fact, they didn't know much about the tasks yet, so Harry's life wasn't in any immediate danger. So staying more with Harry has nothing to do with Voldemort or keeping him safe, but it does have to do with understanding. Knowing Harry didn't like attention or crowds, she took a stack of toasts to him rather than have him face the school.
Actually, Hermione and Harry had just finished a conversation about how weird it was that he was fourth champion, about how Moody thought it was to hurt Harry, about how Sirius had been expecting something like that to happen, and about how the whole situation was more than a little dodgy.
Just to clear up any confusion, I didn't mean that Hermione needed to be with him to protect him, but rather to support him when he was in a difficult and increasingly desperate situation. Harry needed Hermione more than Ron did, for valid reasons, in that moment, and that is my reasoning for why she chose to have breakfast with Harry.

I doubt that she would have to, because as we've clearly seen in OotP, Ron loves attention; Hermione wouldn't have to head him off because Ron would probably want to enjoy this attention.
Attention loving person or not, a person in that situation needed support, and I doubt Ron would really have enjoyed it if it was real. Just like Harry, it's fun to fantasize about, but there are clearly other, more ominous things occuring.

She did want to repair their friendship, but Harry saw through it; however, she approached Harry first to go with her to Hogsmeade; she didn't even mention Ron until Harry asked "But don't you want to go with Ron though?"
Yeah, Harry saw through it. (Isn't that curious that he thought she would want to go with Ron? Obviously Harry thinks there is some substance to their relationship. ;) Just kidding!) No, the REAL point is that if she had metnioned Ron first, Harry would have said flat out "no", that's why she didn't mention Ron.

Yes, there was a lot of tension between Ron and Harry early in the TWT, but there isn't suppose to be tension between Ron and Hermione or Harry and Hermione because Ron and Harry were fighting, not Hermione. However, Hermione was clearly not as close with Ron as with Harry when they were fighting. For example, when Hermione and Harry went to Hogsmeade, Ron didn't greet or talk with Hermione. Although Harry was there, he was under the invisiblity cloak, so Ron had no reason not to talk Hermione. From Ron's perspective, Hermione was sitting alone at a table writing in a notebook; so why didn't Ron come and sit with Hermione?
Hermione is on Harry's side here, therefore Ron is just as much at odds with her as with Harry because of that.
Also, I would venture that Ron knew Harry was under the invisibility cloak. Ron isn't stupid and knows that Harry has, in the past, used the IC in Hogsmeade. He would probably be able to figure out that Harry was with Hermione. Why would Hermione go by herself when she could have gone with Ginny?

Exactly. This understanding is what makes me ship Harry and Hermione.
I understand this, but I think it is within the bonds of friendship. Hermione is not unique in this respect. Ginny also made decisions to ensure she could help Harry when he was really distraught over what he had witnessed in the Pensieve. Many people act in what they believe to be the best way to ensure Harry's happiness and fulfill his needs. Dumbledore and Sirius do this too. Not that I'm saying that DD or Sirius or Ginny or Ron are better at this than Hermione,notice that all those who attempt with this with Harry fall short in some situation or another, thus is human nature.
But it is very common in the HP series that a person makes a lot of sacrifices for another person. If we were going to use this to justify ships, there would be a LOT of pairings.Overlapping pairings, and a klot of very odd pairings too.
But like I said before, it is my belief that she would have done the same for Ron. Hermione is a very compassionate and loving person. I do not believe these characteristics are exclusive to her relationship with Harry. She carries these traits into her experiences with many people and creatures.

And why does he think so? Because she tells him that what he already know that he is wrong. Sometimes is hard to see the truth in the eyes even for Harry thats why he is annoyed.

Harry doesn't need to know the truth because he knows it. What he's bother is by her nagging.

My logic is a little bit different as yours. Dreams about Voldemort= bad. There is nothing about the order is everything from POV Voldemorts why should block this dreams because of the order if Harry dreamed to be a snake which was controlled by Voldemort? Its about Voldemort not the order even Harry knows this thats why he should block it. Its goes pretty both sided even Snape did say that Voldemort is an expert of this.

You missunderstood me. What I said was that Dumbledore's wanted Harry to block the dreams because he didn't want Harry to know any information.

To be called naiv or stupid there lies worlds, She said naiv this isn't disrespectfull but call someone stupid this is very much respectless.
This aren't proves because she wasn't there and did talk to him, was she? So I can pretend I wanted but didn't do anything I'm sure my friend didn't believe a word of it.

To me it's the same thing.

I'm speaking about wanted speak with him as Hermione wasn't there. Ginny did never try to speak to Harry thats fact.

When did Harry said I want to talk to Hermione? Perhaps I missed that part.

Moral? Maybe. Support? possible but this don't make it right what Ginny did.

To me it makes perfect sense.

Thats the very different to Hermione she did go with Harry. So if they were caught than together and not like I tell you how to make and the danger lies by you alone. Its like telling how you friend can rob a money and you wash your hands in inocents.

Hermione was outside remember? I don't believe that it was Ginny's business what Harry wanted to talk Sirius. Why should she be there?

He was in agreement with Hermione. Harry couldn't stop Fred and George anymore. It would have been for nothing he isn't someone who let other risk they neck and than say No I can't anymore.

Harry clearly says that he can abandon the plan. So he could stop. He just didn't want too.

In 12 G was it between Harry and Hermione and Ron. But there was it only between Harry and Hermione.

Ginny must be deaf! The twins hear Harry fight, Ginny said she heard Harry. yeap she must be deaf!

Brilliance and intelligence isn't just the brain its the heart, too.

:huh:

Oh it's inferred that he knows what he's doing is wrong. So it's related to the fact he keeps avoiding Hermione because he knows that she's right when she nags to him. He knows what he's doing is wrong so much to the point he wants to back out, but doesn't because of the Twins.

I'm sorry but I disagree. Harry knows what he is doing. It just bothers him that she nags. He says so.

Okay what you said above confused me a bit, so if I answer incorrectly, I'll apologize now.

Remember that Hermione never wanted to hide anything from Harry. She knew how he would react if they kept things from him during ther summer and she was right. Because of hiding things from him Harry become "Angry!Harry." Dumbledore recognized that he made a mistake in thinking that just because Harry is too young he shouldn't be told things.

:tu:

I can't explain how much I disagree with that statement of Harry is too young. I don't want to bash Dumbledore but that's simply . . .

Has it every occured to anyone that maybe Hermione said the above because was trying to make herself believe he was there? As in she was so worried he wasn't she lied to herself so that she wouldn't worry. Am I making any sense?

You see that has good posibilities. But I still feel that in the everyday fights. Hermione is just too stubborn.

That is one whole scene even if Ginny and Luna came in later. So yes the compromise is when they came into the room.

See this is how it went down:
Before H/Hr compromised
Harry wanted to go right away to the MoM to see if Sirius was there. Hermione wanted to make Harry realize it could be a trick.

What was compromised in this scene
Harry agreed to Hermione's plan to check if Sirius was at home before going to the MoM.
Hermione agreed to go with Harry to Umbridge's office to help him find out the truth of Sirius's whereabouts instead of arguing with Harry.

They both backed down from their previous arguments to get to the matter at hand: Is Sirius at the MoM or at 12GP?

I have a different view on there and I'm not getting your point.

This disturbs me. It's as if Hermione can't state her opinion on something or someone. Just because Sirius means a lot to Harry doesn't mean that Hermione shouldn't voice her opinions on him to Harry instead of being a hypocrite. And what did she say that was so harsh? That Sirius sees Harry as James. Wasn't that the truth? Didn't Sirius himself say that Harry's less like his father? Wasn't he disappointed that Harry wasn't like his father then? I think I'm getting off topic...

One thing is stating her opinion another one hurting other people's feelings. There were many ways that Hermione could have those things to Harry.

Oh wow! Hermione called Harry naive once and she doesn't respect him. Gee, I wonder what kind of respect she has for Ron then...

I know it's a silly argument. I'm just following your shipmates footsteps. I tried to be equal as much as I can.

Ginny doesn't give Harry moral support, she gives him an out for the sadness he's in. If she were giving him moral support the conversation would have been deep. She would know why Harry wanted to talk to Sirius and that Harry was thinking of breaking into Umbridge's office. Then she'd tell him what would be the right and wrong reasons for breaking into Umbridge's office. She doesn't do any of that, so she is not showing moral support. She's being supportive in wanting to help, but that's as far as it goes.

Oh please! :rotfl: I have no reason to believe that it wasn't moral support what she gave him. Off course you may add that the egg had draught of peace, veritasium hey! what about a love potion! You see there you have something you can work on! :rotfl:


Clearly she sounds like Sirius who thinks Harry should be like his father and do things just for the thrill of it instead of thinking what the repercussion would be. Also, Ginny isn't the one who is going to talk to Sirius so the repercussion wouldn't affect her in the slightest way. The only thing what would happen is that she would learn to find out things fully instead of just going with the flow. She's trying to be cool in front of Harry, but what she's doing is helping him into trouble.

What she did was help a friend on something that deeply affects him. I think it was great they way she helped out Harry.

You can still respect other people's opinions while putting forward alternative ones. Blindly trusting other people's opinions and judgements is not wise. You are then following like sheep. Not all boys are the same and none of the Weasleys are like Harry.

For me it is very smart. Harry is a big boy not a child. He has faced Voldemort 4 times I believe that he can judge for himself.

I don't understand what you mean by your first paragraph. Think of someone who has a drinking or severe weight problem does it show you care to leave them to it until they are ready to do something about it or does it show you care more by trying to encourage them to sort the problem out? There are different ways of dealing with people and Molly's sympathy had no effect on Harry. Neither did Ron and Ginny's method of staying away.

I'm not going into the drinking stuff that has no comparison at all with HP. Clearly Mrs. Weasley is pushing Harry to go down talk and eat. Something he doesn't want to do. He needs to talk when he wants too not when others want him to.

Yes, Ginny relates to Fred and George's pranks in Harry's situation. Because for Harry to talk to Sirius something needs to happens that distracts Umbridge's attention from Harry. Now having a bit of joke and distracting her from Harry, it's diverting her attention and leaves Harry to go and free his soul from that awful thoughts that he had. Which is very cleaver if I may add.
Harry knows both of them know it is wrong and that Hermione will give it to him straight, unlike Ginny. On the question of understanding both Hermione and Ginny initially thought Harry was down because of Cho. No, Ginny's reference was to Harry wanting to talk to Sirius while Umbridge was on alert. At that stage she had no idea how that was to be achieved. That's the point: she was going to go to Fred and George with the problem and get them to sort it out. She had given no thought herself to how it could be done i.e. by diversion.

Because she knows Fred and George life miracles and even the color of his underwear. She knew their plans for when they left. It makes perfect sense to me that if they are going to do it. The time should be used for Harry to have his talk.

Why is that a positive? Again, GilyAnn, it shows Ginny deciding to support something without having all the facts, without thinking things through. It's complete recklessness. That would NOT be good should she have a position of more influence over Harry i.e. as his girlfriend.

It's very positive. Because unlike Hermione, Ginny trusts Harry's judgement but when he is wrong she will have no regret on telling him. But clearly in the DoM thing there was no reason to doubt Harry. Even though she didn't get the full details she was willing to help. Imagine if Ginny stops everything and starts asking questions. This while Sirius is being 'torture'! That would be . . . :rolleyes:

No way. Hermione points out the obvious holes in Harry's version of events. Just because the snake dream was correct doesn't mean this dream shouldn't be questioned. That's Hermione's intelligence showing. She's not a blind follower.

Sorry but to me the logical reasoning there is Ron's. The hard proof is on Harry and Ron's side. Hermione has no proof of what she is saying.

He does. He admits he does to Harry.

I though he said he cared too much about Harry?

Harry wanted to talk about it. JKR creates a nice scene between Harry and Luna and finishes with a goodbye scene that ends with Ron, then Hermione. Ginny is strangely absent.

No he doesn't want to talk. Because if had wanted to talk he would have done so with them like he did at the end of GoF. You said 'strangely'

But had she explained Harry's feelings to Ron? We don't know, because Hermione left the Great Hall to seek out Harry.

She saw Ron's first remember?

She doesn't justify Ron for abandoning Harry in times of need; she is merely pointing out the obvious "Ron's jealous". Harry is the only one who can't tell because he IS Harry, and couldn't possibly imagine why Ron would be jealous of him.

I'm soory but I feel she does. She is explaining in details to Harry why is Ron feeling the way he does. That for me it's understanding and explaining the feelings.

The first portion is off text; the latter part: I do not think that its so incredible that they can be friends, but I do feel that Hermione and Harry are closer.

Sometimes I think that H/Hr shippers are so caught up that they forget that even though Hermione and Ron fight they are friends and they have laugh toguether. Hermione stays in Ron's house and she hangs out with him in the summers vacation. Honestly they are friends and I feel that they are very close.

She did, but does she divide her time equally between the two friends? We don't know, but from the looks of it, she doesn't hang out with Ron much when Harry isn't there.

But why does it matter the amount of time she spends with one of the other! Jkr isn't going to decide with that time who stays with who. Please forgive me but I feel that is nitpicking. It feels irrelevant to me.

Interestingly enough, she chose to go with Harry.

I though it was obvious. She goes with him because Harry doesn't have much friends unlike Ron. Who obviously knows half of the school and has 2 older brothers.

It doesn't embellish or show Hermione and Ginny's friendship because Harry only describes Hermione and Ginny as both being there; JKR doesn't make any dialog or interaction between Hermione and Ginny or Harry and Ginny when Harry was there. Although this is a wonderful opportunity to show a glimpse of Ginny's character, JKR didn't take it.

No because she showed in the beginning of the book (although I'm sure you would disagree) and her timing was OoP not GoF. It was also very obvious to *me* that Hermione and Ginny were friends.

Eating breakfast with another girl does not show Hermione's other life, because the trio are best friends. This scene only shows the difference in Hermione's friendships with Harry and Ron.

Oh dear! Poor Hermione is glued and punished with Harry and Ron. Why can she just have a life on her own. She obviously need to hang out more with girls.

Ginny is not involved, and as many of H/Hr shippers pointed out, Hermione is an old soul. I doubt that she would act care-free when her two best friends are jumping down each other's throats.

Sorry I don't believe that Hermione is an old soul. Harry is the old soul, that was even said by JKR. Hermione is a normal teenager.

Harry and Ron's friendship is being tested. Frankly, the fact that Ron abandoned Harry definitely shows the weakness in their friendships. At the same time though, JKR chose to embellish the strength in Harry and Hermione's friendship, and also, shows that when Hermione isn't hanging out with Harry and consolating him, she doesn't go and comfort Ron.

:no: Sorry I disagree also here. Clearly for *me* JKR portrait how H/Hr are not suited and she clearly miss out on the oportunity to portrait a H/Hr romance. Clearly stating that Harry missed Ron and that Hermione wasn't the same. What kind of an author throws those lines at the future love interest? That simply makes no sense to me. The line of she does that to trick doesn't hold any sense to me because there are many other ways to do so.

Hermione and Ginny's friendship has never been mentioned before; eating breakfast at the same table doesn't show "closeness" in anything in that period of time.

:huh: That was being hinted ever since PoA. It was hinted in PoA it developed in GoF and clearly it was a reality in OoP. Wait! I know you are going to tell me that Ginny and Hermione are not really friends! Right? :shrug:

Yep, but we do not see any interaction or dialog between Ginny and Hermione pre OotP, so we didn't know whether it was "fun" or not, because we didn't know what they were talking about or whether they were talking at all.

Where do you think Hermione stays? Good lord I hope it's not with Ron! She stays with Ginny in the QWC, they go down toguether they are seen toguether. I highly doubt that they never talk during all that time.

I think not. JKR had never shown Hermione and Ginny interaction, and even the glimpses in GoF doesn't display anything because they never talked for more than two sentences together.

Well I'm sorry but I feel she did very, clear.

You said that she "copys". I just think that it's an insult to her originality.

Copying, taking, paraphased, adapted, take your pick. Now, mind answering my question?

How?

The way she has done it for 5 books now!

The "things" might not be original, but the plot isn't part of the "things", or else, all the books would be the same.

Honestly I'm ever going to get an answer? Things, stories, plot lines, interludes take your pick.


:clap: Dumbledore the wise, Prongs Sr!

I think that this shows the weakness of the H/G more than anything else. The H/G cannot see that Hermione adds to Harry making him a stronger person than before. They seem to think that viewing Hermione as a strong female lead takes away from Harry. They do not for some reason see Harry and Hermione adding to the story, even though it is interesting that this is completely natural. One is born into a family yet one does not feel whole so one goes out and searches for their mate, signifigant other, better half, use whatever term you wish but one looks for the one that adds to themselves. That takes them to a level they haven't been at before. No we are not placing Hermione above Harry, we just see that Harry and Hermione togeather adds to Harry's strength and adds to Harry as a person.

Had to put in my two cents in here. Many H/Hr shippers do place Hermione above Harry they rank her with Dumbledore. That to me it's not natural. OoP showed H/Hr relationship on with some serious issues. They are friends yes no one is denying that but in OoP clearly Hermione's nagging got to the point where Harry simply refused to listen to her. Right or wrong Harry reached a point to avoid her and be glad that she was busy so she couldn't bother him. He practically called her a nagger on her face. H/Hr are friends that clearly should stay as friends. Because if they past that stage they will destroyed a nice relationship.

This ranks up with the one about we don't want the Trio to change or break up so its Hr/R and H/G all the way. Of course then one has to ignore that the Trio still has to change and even the OBHWF would be a next step in the evolution of the Trio. Unless you see them all living in the same house then the Trio still must change. So if you ship Hr/R and H/G and say its because you don't want the Trio to change then you are not thinking it through to its logical end. Even the OBHWF is not the Trio and the Trio will have to change for the OBHWF to come about.

I have always said that in the next book JKR will separate the trio. It showed the early stages in OoP and trully believe that not a rift but a coming of age time will come to the series. It's part of the evolution. Harry will be separated from Ron and Hermione.

Gily Ann

Just to answer a few H/G claims that Hermione is not important, understanding, or helpful to Harry with text.

All quotes come from OotP American Edition.

Ch. 16 In the Hog’s Head page 331

The fact was that he had given the matter a great deal of thought over the past fortnight. Sometimes it seemed an insane idea, just as it had on the night Hermione had proposed it, but at others, he had found himself thinking about the spells that had served him best in his various encounters with Dark creatures and Death Eaters-found himself, in fact, subconsciously planning lessons...........

Ch 19 The Lion and the Serpent pg 397

Harry felt as though he were carrying some kind of talisman inside his chest over the following two weeks, a glowing secret that supported him through Umbridge’s classes and evn made it possible for him to smile blandly as he looked into her horrible bulging eyes. He and the D.A. were resisting her under her very nose,

At this point I see a need to remind us all that the D.A. was Hermione’s idea and that she organized it to help Harry. Seems like she understands Harry’s need for acting and not just dwelling on it so Hermione helps buy organizing a way that Harry can deal with his trials and help himself and others as well while at the same time giving him an outlet to deal with his problems.

And just to answer the H/G comments about Hermione and her arguing with Harry about Sirius and if he had been actually captured,

Ch 37 The Lost Prophecy pg 829

Something was erupting inside Harry’s head: a need to justify himself; a need to explain;

“I tried to check he’d really taken Sirius, I went to Umbridge’s office, I spoke to Kreacher in the fire, and he said that Sirius wasn’t there, he said he’d gone!”

Now who’s idea was it to check to see if Sirius was really captured? Hermione’s. Right. Now when Harry needs to justify himself he falls back on Hermione and her reasoning. How much worse could he have felt if he couldn’t have even claimed that much.

Cheers!

And here DumbledoretheWise condemns her for the same thing that Prongs Sr. praised in Ginny. And DumbledoretheWise ignores the fact that Harry tries to convince Hermione that he is right after he tells Ginny that its non of her business and simply swears at Luna and thinks that the last thing he needs is a conversation with Luna Lovegood.

One could ask oneself why does Harry try to convince Hermione so? Why not just go. Surely Harry could do it by himself? Why does he want Hermione with him? He tries to convince her and simply tells the others (except Ron) to go away and stay out of it.
What exactly am I condemning Hermione for? I stated the opinion that in that particular situation Hermione was wasting her breath, she couldn't let go. Harry could make his own decision, but Hermione tends to push her opinion. I'm not bashing Hermione, I'm pointing out a mistake she made. Must I ask your permission to do this, oh powerful and mighty Hawk?????

Probably why you're on the same ship. But one shouldn't be too suprised.
Thanks, but I don't agree with anyone and everyone that ships H/G or Hr/R. I frequently disgree with other posters here. I don't insult your originality, so don't insult mine.

Do you have some text to back these up?
Yes.
1) When Harry comes toGrimmauld Place during the summer, she seems to have a good handling of when stand her ground and yell back, when to put in her opinion, and when to stay quiet.
2) When Harry gets unreasonable about the "possession" thing, she is sensitive to his feelings but at the same time won't let Harry push her around.
3) When Sirus is in trouble, two or three times she is able to respond against Harry's yelling, with things like "There's no need to taket hta tone with me, I'm just trying to help" and "I'm three years older than you were when you first fought You Know Who", etc. I'm kinda in a hurry, sorry if I'm not giving specific page numbers, hopefully a refferral back to the scenes will do.

The interview to back up the first part of this? The vulnerable part. One will simply point out that the different flaws would make Hermione a uniquely powerful and wise witch in her own right. But wise and powerful none the less.
I don't know the specific interview off hand, but I can look it up if you wish. I believe the subject was people worrying more about Ron than Hermione, and JKR being surprised, saying that she thought Hermione was one of the most vulnerable characters. Like I said, I'm in a hurry, but if you still want specifics later, I will do my best to find it for you.

Of course one will **** her either way as proven at top of this post. Which goes to prove that a H/G simply cannot see H/Hr (can't or won't, don't know-don't care) but will not approach the possibility of H/Hr objectively.
Okay, I said :"I think it's important to note that Hermione and Ginny have different ways of respecting and doing what is best for Harry. I think the argument here is that Ginny's reactions and dealings with him are more balanced and appropriate from a significant other status."
How am I being blind to the possibility of H/Hr or not looking objectively? I said that I believed that Ginny and Hermione have different personalities, and thus different ways of handling Harry, and THEREFORE different things to offer him if a relationship were to occur. I'm allowed to think that so far Ginny has displayed what I previously called "a MORE blanced and appropriate" approach to Harry than Hermione. Not once did I discredit Hermione's importance or talents. I simply said that I think Ginny makes a MORE appropriate significant other. How is that NOT obejective? Comparisons are a good way to start from an objective perspective.Please refrain from blanket statements about what members of ships think or do not think. I made no biased statements that justified your rude reaction. Thank you.

The point of your statement here is????????
My point was that the thread had died down and the format of posts had changed, and now we are back to the traditional hot and heavy arguments that are very convoluted. It was a lighthearted way to end a post. Why are you being so rude? Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

:rotfl: :lol:

I think that this shows the weakness of the H/G more than anything else. The H/G cannot see that Hermione adds to Harry making him a stronger person than before. They seem to think that viewing Hermione as a strong female lead takes away from Harry. They do not for some reason see Harry and Hermione adding to the story, even though it is interesting that this is completely natural. One is born into a family yet one does not feel whole so one goes out and searches for their mate, signifigant other, better half, use whatever term you wish but one looks for the one that adds to themselves. That takes them to a level they haven't been at before. No we are not placing Hermione above Harry, we just see that Harry and Hermione togeather adds to Harry's strength and adds to Harry as a person.
I think Hermione is an exremely important friend that absoutely compliments Harry's strength and strengthens him. I see this as being possible without a H/Hr relationship occuring. Once again, these blanket shipper arguments are dangerous and silly.

This ranks up with the one about we don't want the Trio to change or break up so its Hr/R and H/G all the way. Of course then one has to ignore that the Trio still has to change and even the OBHWF would be a next step in the evolution of the Trio. Unless you see them all living in the same house then the Trio still must change. So if you ship Hr/R and H/G and say its because you don't want the Trio to change then you are not thinking it through to its logical end. Even the OBHWF is not the Trio and the Trio will have to change for the OBHWF to come about.
I'm not sure what your point is. Things have to change either way, a Ron and Hermione relationship would change the group dynamics, as would Harry/Hermione.

Cheers!
Cheeky of you to end a post with "Cheers" when your post wasn't written in line with that attitude.

Great posts to all my fellow Harmony shipmates (especially Polaris). :clap:

Thanks Evaluna and Hawk for the welcome back.

I don't believe JK hasn't taken chances to show Ginny's character......
I don't believe any H/G or R/HR shipper ships those couples because theyre afraid of the trio growing apart.....we are smarter than that,...
I don't believe Ginny chose Dean over Harry..pppppplease...I mean no one even knows if that was a lie, or if Ginny will marry Dean, or if they will even work......Lets stay on the facts, please.
Also, IMO, the reactions are clearly balanced, I don't feel that is a strong clue, not just because you guys use it, and not because "lots of people" see it, then it inmediatly makes it true.
Also, I do think friends don'tagree 100%.....but friends don't get continually annoyed and that is not right in a friendship.....he DOES get annoyed.....they are friends, of course, but how doyou expect they will be a couple when they don't even UNDERSTAND each other???

Turambar, that post was :wow: !!!

I absolutely loved your careful comparative analyses of the confrontation scenes between Harry and Ginny and Harry and Hermione. They were meticulous and extremely perceptive!

Turambar:
Hermione never goes for the soft option just to please Harry, despite her very strong feelings for him, whether they are characterised as friendship or something more.

OOTP is full of characters letting Harry down because they ultimately don't quite care enough or they allow his behaviour to deflect them, or they don't know him well enough or they don't have his best interests at heart. Not Hermione, she has those bases covered. <snip> I think this strength of character is crucial to Hermione's importance to Harry, the inspiration behind the "Harry needs Hermione badly" quote. Hermione is too strong, too fierce, too driven to allow Harry too far into the various minefields along his path.

Precisely! She is so much more than a brain to him and that is why I feel so strongly in the rightness of this ship. In spite of all the anger and shouting in OoP, there is a quiet bond of unspoken understanding between these two that is a true manfestation of that highest form of platonic love we discussed a couple of threads back.
Marvelous job, Turambar!
Cheers,
Nia

Hawk92:

Probably why you're on the same ship. But one shouldn't be too suprised.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This may shock you but H/Gers actually have independent thoughts. I'm sure if Dumbledore-the-wise and I decided to discuss details regarding H/G, there would be areas of disagreement, as there are occasionally with Gily Ann and myself with some of the finer points of H/G.


I think that this shows the weakness of the H/G more than anything else. The H/G cannot see that Hermione adds to Harry making him a stronger person than before. They seem to think that viewing Hermione as a strong female lead takes away from Harry. They do not for some reason see Harry and Hermione adding to the story, even though it is interesting that this is completely natural. One is born into a family yet one does not feel whole so one goes out and searches for their mate, signifigant other, better half, use whatever term you wish but one looks for the one that adds to themselves. That takes them to a level they haven't been at before. No we are not placing Hermione above Harry, we just see that Harry and Hermione togeather adds to Harry's strength and adds to Harry as a person.

Your implying that Hermione and Harry are soulmates and I strongly disagree. JKR has stated that both Ron and Hermione are sidekicks and as I feel she has shown romantic tension between the R/Hr, it seems logically that Harry would be ending up with a different romantic partner than Hermione. I've shipped H/G since early book 2.

Hermione's constant pattern of nagging, bossing and mothering Harry has been noticeable since the beginning. I don't feel that these behaviors are particularly romantic in nature. There comes a time in Harry's life when he has to make his own decisions and he can certainly ask others for advice, but Hermione needs to know when to give advice, rather than just scream it out at him. Is she right most of the time, Yes, but do you think Harry wants to spend the rest of his life being nagged to death by his wife? I sure don't!

Even more disturbing than Hermione's nagging and bossing behavior, is Harry's continuing pattern on ignoring her and lying to her. Please tell me when lying is considered a good thing in a marriage or serious romantic relationship, because it isn't.

Harry needs a woman who he can relate to on a personal and emotional level and also have fun with. After all he has endured in his life and will have to endure, I would like him ending up with Ginny, who knows how to make him laugh and will not nag him till the end of his days!

Nice work, shipmates. :tu: Thanks Nia.
I'm busy but just on this (and thanks to Hawk):

Posted by DTW
But Turumbar....where does it ever say Harry wants to talk about Sirius? Here we're talking about with Hermione specifically. Quote please. It says that when Hermione brought it up, he was glad Ron shushed her, he wasn't sure how he felt about it.

Just to recap: originally I said that Hermione tried to talk to Harry about Sirius but Ron stopped her. Then I later said that Harry wanted to talk about Sirius.
You mentioned Hermione specifically. I'm talking about Harry's general need to talk about Sirius. Harry talks to Nearly Headless Nick about Sirius' death, he has a conversation with Hagrid where he can't face talking about it, he talks to Luna and their conversation touches on death. The bit relating to Hermione is this:

Hermione showed signs of wanting to talk about Sirius, but Ron tended to make hushing noises every time she mentioned his name. Harry was not sure whether or not he wanted to talk about his godfather yet; his wishes varied with his mood.

Hermione wants to talk about it, Harry does want to talk about it at times and at other times he doesn't or is not sure.

I like how he refers to it as a talisman. In reality there probably was some powerful magic working there. A powerful force of truth against the ministries and Umbridge's lies. Or something like that. It also represents Hermione's love for Harry and her own desire to protect him, from himself and others.

What exactly am I condemning Hermione for? I stated the opinion that in that particular situation Hermione was wasting her breath, she couldn't let go. Harry could make his own decision, but Hermione tends to push her opinion. I'm not bashing Hermione, I'm pointing out a mistake she made. Must I ask your permission to do this, oh powerful and mighty Hawk?????

You need no permission to state your opinion. I need no permission to reply.

Yes.
1) When Harry comes toGrimmauld Place during the summer, she seems to have a good handling of when stand her ground and yell back, when to put in her opinion, and when to stay quiet.
2) When Harry gets unreasonable about the "possession" thing, she is sensitive to his feelings but at the same time won't let Harry push her around.
3) When Sirus is in trouble, two or three times she is able to respond against Harry's yelling, with things like "There's no need to taket hta tone with me, I'm just trying to help" and "I'm three years older than you were when you first fought You Know Who", etc. I'm kinda in a hurry, sorry if I'm not giving specific page numbers, hopefully a refferral back to the scenes will do.

I shall be happy to wait until you can provide those page numbers. But Chapters and page numbers help a lot more as pages tend to differ in the books depending on what version you have.

I don't know the specific interview off hand, but I can look it up if you wish. I believe the subject was people worrying more about Ron than Hermione, and JKR being surprised, saying that she thought Hermione was one of the most vulnerable characters. Like I said, I'm in a hurry, but if you still want specifics later, I will do my best to find it for you.

I shall be happy to wait.

Okay, I said :"I think it's important to note that Hermione and Ginny have different ways of respecting and doing what is best for Harry. I think the argument here is that Ginny's reactions and dealings with him are more balanced and appropriate from a significant other status."
How am I being blind to the possibility of H/Hr or not looking objectively? I said that I believed that Ginny and Hermione have different personalities, and thus different ways of handling Harry, and THEREFORE different things to offer him if a relationship were to occur. I'm allowed to think that so far Ginny has displayed what I previously called "a MORE blanced and appropriate" approach to Harry than Hermione. Not once did I discredit Hermione's importance or talents. I simply said that I think Ginny makes a MORE appropriate significant other. How is that NOT obejective? Comparisons are a good way to start from an objective perspective.Please refrain from blanket statements about what members of ships think or do not think. I made no biased statements that justified your rude reaction. Thank you.

I was in no way shape or form addressing any particular shipper or their theories. I had seen these theories enough to address them in a general way and I addressed them in that way. When I address a specific poster or debate their theories I place their name in bold. And I fail to see why I was not allowed to address this in a general format. I never addressed you as an individual. I merely gave my opinion on a couple of general theories in this thread. Now when you see DumbledoretheWise this is specifically for you.

DumbledoretheWise

I never accused you of any bias statement and when I address a poster about what I feel is a double standard I have no qualms about saying so in any uncertain terms. I pointed out that when you look at what Prongs Sr and you posted Hermione cannot win and since you agreed with each other and stated that you interpeted the book in the same way I found it interesting that if Hermione stands up to Harry she is wrong but if she is scared and gives into Harry she is wrong. Interesting to say the least.

Now I am sorry if you felt that was rude but I simply gave my opinion.

I think Hermione is an exremely important friend that absoutely compliments Harry's strength and strengthens him. I see this as being possible without a H/Hr relationship occuring. Once again, these blanket shipper arguments are dangerous and silly.

If you wish to view blanket arguments as dangerous and silly that is one thing. But they are acceptable in this forum. I have not attacked any shipper, poster, or person but have given my opinion, not about them personally but their theories.

I'm not sure what your point is. Things have to change either way, a Ron and Hermione relationship would change the group dynamics, as would Harry/Hermione.

I do believe that was addressed to the OBHWF theory and those who claim that a H/Hr would destroy the Trio. It would seem that you and I have a common POV in this case that the group dynamics would change one way or the other.

Cheeky of you to end a post with "Cheers" when your post wasn't written in line with that attitude.

Indeed. But I gave my opinion with no attitude. I simply gave my opinion. Lets be honest here I viewed your booyah's, your Corunilus-can't-see-whats-in-front-of-your-face, what more do you H/Hr shippers want comments as highly offensive, but given the fact that people have a right to express their opinions and when one is of an opposite opinion one can take things truly serious. I didn't.

I fail to see that since my opinion is different how it is simply rude. You gave opinion I offered rebuttal.

Cheers!

I just want to say it is wrong to lower Hr/G friendship. There may be little detail in their relationship. However, there are enough piece to tell us they are good friend(I do not know do they qualify close friend yet).
Ginny has told Hermione many secret. This include her feeling about Harry, and she took her brother's broom. This at least shows they talk and feel free to talk about feeling.
There are couple intance Harry enter when they are sit together and talk. One of them include a scene when Hermione is making clothes for elves. It may not be too far to assume Ginny support SPAW(a little weak there, but it is a indication neverless).

To GilyAnn

Harry doesn't need to know the truth because he knows it. What he's bother is by her nagging.
Have you ever feeling it is wrong to anger, yet you are? Have you insult someone when you know you should not? There are time when a person know what is best yet they do not act on their logic. Hermione seem try to help him. Hermione is nagging by nature. She do not only nagging Harry, but Ron as well. Why it is never a negative thing when she do so to Ron though? The point is whoever wants to have a relationship with her have to accept her as she is. She may become less nagging as she grow but it will always be in her as far as I can see.

Ginny stand up to Harry
I would not say Ginny does not stand up to Harry, because there is not enough evident to point one way or the other. The time she mention she has been possed and know how Harry feel, is not a good example. Harry is directly insult to her by forget about her experience. She can be simply response about the insult. Until they are truely argue on an issue, I do not know do Ginny stand up to Harry or not.

Who know may be Hermione really like Krum :D.

Do anyone notice Susan Bone is in the frist movie?! I just rewatch the movie? Could it be hint that it could be Susan Bone?!! :lol:

This love thread really make people overanlysis thing.

Prongs Sr

This may shock you but H/Gers actually have independent thoughts. I'm sure if Dumbledore-the-wise and I decided to discuss details regarding H/G, there would be areas of disagreement, as there are occasionally with Gily Ann and myself with some of the finer points of H/G.

Once again I shall point out that this was a blanket statement and all I did was point out that if you take your post and DumbledoretheWise’s post then you have a lose-lose situation that you created for Hermione and a win-win that you created for Ginny. You have not been here for most of the early threads but this was debated earlier. Involving many of the same scenes from text that have been once again brought up.

But since this seems to be insulting to some allow me to offer my apologies. This is in the sincerest form that I can present on the internet.

Your implying that Hermione and Harry are soulmates and I strongly disagree. JKR has stated that both Ron and Hermione are sidekicks and as I feel she has shown romantic tension between the R/Hr, it seems logically that Harry would be ending up with a different romantic partner than Hermione. I've shipped H/G since early book 2.

I’m not implying anything. I’m saying it flat out. I feel that Harry and Hermione are soulmates and I have felt this way since I examined the text that showed that Hermione had feelings for Harry in Gof. I have pointed out several times that Hermione had a established dislike of Fleur and her attitude before any Ron/Fleur interaction. I have shown that the only time we get a heightened response from Hermione follows a Harry/Fleur scene. I have shown by the text how Hermione developed sub conscience feelings for Harry and how the clues where given in the text. I too have followed a chain of logic and clues which have lead me to my conclusion and I have submitted the text that I followed that lead me to this conclusion.

Hermione's constant pattern of nagging, bossing and mothering Harry has been noticeable since the beginning. I don't feel that these behaviors are particularly romantic in nature. There comes a time in Harry's life when he has to make his own decisions and he can certainly ask others for advice, but Hermione needs to know when to give advice, rather than just scream it out at him. Is she right most of the time, Yes, but do you think Harry wants to spend the rest of his life being nagged to death by his wife? I sure don't!

This could get personal so I hope that you do not view the following as rude. This will of course stem from how we as individuals view a certain relationship. I do not view Hermione giving her opinion as nagging and I think that Harry is strong enough to do what he wants to in the end. The pattern I have seen is Hermione and Ron fight about something and then Harry makes a decision. In OotP we saw a shift in this as it was Harry and Hermione working out the opposite ends of the problem and then going together to solve it. I also noticed that Hermione defers to Harry a good bit after he considers her point of view. After the decision is made Hermione goes along and even though she is against it she does her best to help Harry succeed. Actions tend to speak louder than words. I have no problem with a intelligent opinionated woman, especially if she’s right, I value their opinion and look at is an a opportunity to get a new perspective on a problem.

Even more disturbing than Hermione's nagging and bossing behavior, is Harry's continuing pattern on ignoring her and lying to her. Please tell me when lying is considered a good thing in a marriage or serious romantic relationship, because it isn't.

Yet in the end Harry realizes that Hermione was right (MO follows) and was trying in the best way that she knows how to show how she loves him. I have pointed out several times that Harry simply tells Ginny she is not involved in this or refers to her as Ron’s little sister. Its also very interesting that Harry can relax around Ginny and vice versa after the romance is removed from between them.

Harry needs a woman who he can relate to on a personal and emotional level and also have fun with. After all he has endured in his life and will have to endure, I would like him ending up with Ginny, who knows how to make him laugh and will not nag him till the end of his days!

That is your opinion of Hermione and not mine. I see that Hermione will mature and that Harry and Hermione will continue to grow together as they have in the last 5 books. A pattern that has not been established with Ginny. I also do not agree with the whole Ginny is better than Hermione and that is what Harry deserves. I think that Hermione loves Harry very much and that Harry loves her.

Cheers!

Just to answer a few H/G claims that Hermione is not important, understanding, or helpful to Harry with text.

Who says Hermione's not important? Hermione's important. But she's not the most important. Many a times in shipping posts I've read it states that Hermione and Harry have this celestial friendship almost. That they're so high above everyone else and that Harry's and her's relationship is the most important. I and I'm sure a few others, would disagree. Hermione's importatnt to Harry, she's one of his best friends, but their are others that mean a lot to him, too. Ron, the other Weasley's, Dumbledore, Hagrid. Saying that Hermione is the most important out of the bunch is just wrong in my opinion.

Also, she's understanding to an extent, but she's always trying to push her views in when they're not wanted. Why do you think the house elves don't like her? Why do you think Harry got so angry with her in this book? I mean, I don't need to talk about what she said about Sirius in this book. It's like her understanding sort of comes from a book that maybe Dr. Phil probably wrote. Not dissing Dr. Phil. :p She understands somethings and is always trying to help, but sometimes her help isn't the exact type of help that is needed.


Yup. Hope this makes sense. I haven't been making much of that lately. :p

EDIT: I think that Hermione loves Harry very much and that Harry loves her.

Are you talking in a romantic sense? 'Cuz I don't see them loving each other in any sense other than the friendship sense. harry loves Hermione and Ron. Hermione loves Harry and Ron. Ron loves Hermione and Harry. They're all best friends and love each other deeply. Don't try to exclude it just to Hermione and Harry.

Hawk92:

Once again I shall point out that this was a blanket statement and all I did was point out that if you take your post and DumbledoretheWise’s post then you have a lose-lose situation that you created for Hermione and a win-win that you created for Ginny. You have not been here for most of the early threads but this was debated earlier. Involving many of the same scenes from text that have been once again brought up.

But since this seems to be insulting to some allow me to offer my apologies. This is in the sincerest form that I can present on the internet.

I'm not insulted. Why would you get that impression? Apology accepted, even though you have nothing to apologize for!

I’m not implying anything. I’m saying it flat out. I feel that Harry and Hermione are soulmates and I have felt this way since I examined the text that showed that Hermione had feelings for Harry in Gof. I have pointed out several times that Hermione had a established dislike of Fleur and her attitude before any Ron/Fleur interaction. I have shown that the only time we get a heightened response from Hermione follows a Harry/Fleur scene. I have shown by the text how Hermione developed sub conscience feelings for Harry and how the clues where given in the text. I too have followed a chain of logic and clues which have lead me to my conclusion and I have submitted the text that I followed that lead me to this conclusion.

and I'm stating flat out that JKR is carefully crafting Ginny as JKR's love interest over the entire seven books. She also is using a pattern of hiding Ginny as Harry's love interest, first in books 1-4 as a "little girl" and then, in book 5, having Ginny "suddenly over" her crush on Harry. She introduced Ginny early, as a proper writer would do (introduce the love interest early) in a romance novel; when Hermione enters, her focus is on Ron.

I've seen a lot of scenes with Ginny in which Harry gives her pretty descriptions and describes the chamber as "the worst day of his life" and "the worst he'd ever felt". Ginny's crush is totally unnecessary to the plot after book 2, yet we have it emphasized, as well as her continuing "love life". I've also seen how she is paralled and compared favorable over Cho, the love interest. Why would JKR do that? Why would JKR, in interviews, mention that Ginny is "languishing in love for Harry" and that Harry hadn't noticed her as one of Harry's flaws? We also have Hermione almost dying and Harry's reaction is "guilt" - don't be dead, don't be dead, it's my fault if your dead.


This could get personal so I hope that you do not view the following
as rude. This will of course stem from how we as individuals view a certain relationship. I do not view Hermione giving her opinion as nagging and I think that Harry is strong enough to do what he wants to in the end. The pattern I have seen is Hermione and Ron fight about something and then Harry makes a decision. In OotP we saw a shift in this as it was Harry and Hermione working out the opposite ends of the problem and then going together to solve it. I also noticed that Hermione defers to Harry a good bit after he considers her point of view. After the decision is made Hermione goes along and even though she is against it she does her best to help Harry succeed. Actions tend to speak louder than words. I have no problem with a intelligent opinionated woman, especially if she’s right, I value their opinion and look at is an a opportunity to get a new perspective on a problem.

I think we all bring our own personal perspective to our ships and how we see the various relationships in the book. My biggest problem with H/Hr, besides the lack of chemistry, is Harry's response to the nagging that Hermione does. Lying is not a good thing. You can't lie in a relationship and I'm still surprised that as of book 5, the pattern seems to be getting worse, not better with Harry lying and ignoring Hermione. Do you feel, that in real life, it is OK for a spouse or significant other to lie to their spouse or simply ignore them when they irritate him?

Yet in the end Harry realizes that Hermione was right (MO follows) and was trying in the best way that she knows how to show how she loves him. I have pointed out several times that Harry simply tells Ginny she is not involved in this or refers to her as Ron’s little sister. Its also very interesting that Harry can relax around Ginny and vice versa after the romance is removed from between them.

Hermione is usually right and what does that have to do with romance? Harry is simply not attracted to her. Lupin seems to be right about everything in regards to Harry to. Perhaps you think he is suitable for Harry? As for Ginny, I feel that JKR got "rid" of Ginny's crush on Harry to develop their friendship and make Ginny at ease with him. Also, it has never been mentioned in canon that Harry was irritated that Ginny had feelings for him. On the contrary, he was very polite to her for a young, teenage boy. Like I've mentioned before, the groundwork is all laid out for H/G. There are no negatives to this relationship, compared to Harry's with Hermione's.

You need no permission to state your opinion. I need no permission to reply.
Good.

I shall be happy to wait until you can provide those page numbers. But Chapters and page numbers help a lot more as pages tend to differ in the books depending on what version you have.
Page 74, American Edition, "Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place."
Page 499-500, "Christmas on the Closed Ward."
Page 575-576 "Seen and Unforseen"
Page 654-656 "Career Advice"
Page 735-739 "Out of the Fire"
Page 760-763 "Fight and Flight"
Page 777 "The Department fo Mysteries"
Page 770 "The Department of Mysteries"

I was in no way shape or form addressing any particular shipper or their theories. I had seen these theories enough to address them in a general way and I addressed them in that way. When I address a specific poster or debate their theories I place their name in bold. And I fail to see why I was not allowed to address this in a general format. I never addressed you as an individual. I merely gave my opinion on a couple of general theories in this thread. Now when you see DumbledoretheWise this is specifically for you.
When below a quoted section from one of my posts, I asuume that response is direted at me, especially when the subject matter is the same. Sorry for the confusion.

DumbledoretheWise
I never accused you of any bias statement and when I address a poster about what I feel is a double standard I have no qualms about saying so in any uncertain terms. I pointed out that when you look at what Prongs Sr and you posted Hermione cannot win and since you agreed with each other and stated that you interpeted the book in the same way I found it interesting that if Hermione stands up to Harry she is wrong but if she is scared and gives into Harry she is wrong. Interesting to say the least.

Now I am sorry if you felt that was rude but I simply gave my opinion.
The reason I was commenting is that you didn't clarify. When have I or Prongs ever said that if she stands up for Harry she was wrong?
I made my comment about your post being "rude" because I felt that the way you phrased and delivered things was uncharacteristically cold of you.

If you wish to view blanket arguments as dangerous and silly that is one thing. But they are acceptable in this forum. I have not attacked any shipper, poster, or person but have given my opinion, not about them personally but their theories.
Blanket statements do nothing productive in the sake of argument.

Indeed. But I gave my opinion with no attitude. I simply gave my opinion. Lets be honest here I viewed your booyah's, your Corunilus-can't-see-whats-in-front-of-your-face, what more do you H/Hr shippers want comments as highly offensive, but given the fact that people have a right to express their opinions and when one is of an opposite opinion one can take things truly serious. I didn't.

I fail to see that since my opinion is different how it is simply rude. You gave opinion I offered rebuttal.
Different opinion does not calssify as rude. My basis for these commetns were the following:
Which goes to prove that a H/G simply cannot see H/Hr (can't or won't, don't know-don't care) but will not approach the possibility of H/Hr objectively.
That is an unfair statement, that H/G people are incapable or don't care to approach the points objectively. Many H/G'ers have worked very hard to do so. Even if it has occured, H/Hr is not immune to this either.
I think that this shows the weakness of the H/G more than anything else. The H/G cannot see that Hermione adds to Harry making him a stronger person than before. They seem to think that viewing Hermione as a strong female lead takes away from Harry. They do not for some reason see Harry and Hermione adding to the story, even though it is interesting that this is completely natural.
My reasoning against not using blanket statements is simple. Within a ship there are disagreements. I may agree with some, but not all, of something GilyAnn or Prongs said. To assume you know the opinion of all members of a ship only leasds to problems later.I have argued many times for Hermione's importance to Harry's life, and you won't find me bashing her as a nagging, bossy, inedaquate person. you will seee me look "objectively" and the way certain characters react to Harry, and discuss which would be most beneficial to him should a relationship occur.
The point of this satement is?????
I can't end a post with a statement about the kind of posts occurring? Sorry, but I percieved this as unnecessary comment meant to cap off an already belittling H/G R/Hr shipper post.

Great rebutals Hawk, Turambar and Polaris

In the past I did think why this kiss at the end of GoF and this hug in OotP does remind me at something. I couldn't put my finger on it because I didn't saw it. But than I thought about the war in book6 thats interesting because this did help to remind where I did see this in real life.
I know It now and this is strange. You know before a soldier leaves his family especially his wife they say good bye at King Cross. I think so this is like that in UK. In such case is this good bye different. Its not just a hug its a kiss.
You could expect such a scene at this event.
Now to the welcoming back scene and even for the whole book does this count. This hug remembers me how a soldier is coming home. Harry does even feel like that. This warm glow that he is home again but as fast it was there it did vanish again and thats how a soldier react too. He is angered and the family of this soldier is surprised at this. If you look at this like that than it makes sense. It makes sense that Harry is more angered against Hermione. Because by her does it count.

Thanks FP. Just catching up on a bit more rebuttle:

Posted by Prongs:
Ginny does show spunk towards Harry when he is wrong and she is standing up to him as an equal, not cowering, and pleading like Hermione does with Harry when he is extremely angry. Ginny is hardly self-centered. I would think that Harry could write a book on that particular subject.


The difference in Hermione and Ginny's responses to Harry's anger reflect their different relationships to him.
Putting aside questions of how romantic those feelings are, the fact remains that Hermione is one of Harry's two best friends, they are very close and her feelings for him are intense.
Ginny is his friend's younger sister, someone who's been around as a member of his favourite family, the Weasleys. But he hasn't had much to do with her: she's someone he gets on with now in a friendly but still a distant way. It's a bit like the difference between Harry's feelings for Ron and his feelings for the twins.

It's easier to argue with someone when there is a slight distance in the relationship. When you're very close, when your emotions are fully, intensely engaged it's much, much harder. Physical and emotional responses become intertwined. Pain wells up inside and expresses itself in your thudding heart, constricted breath, shaking voice and tears. Words can cut raw lines on the heart and then be stored away in some crevass of the memory to resurface in the future.
Harry and Hermione are at this stage now. That's why he finds it impossible to look at her at times, that's why a glare from him can sparkle her tears, that's why a quiet word from her can stop him in his tracks. Their opinions matter to each other.

I think Ginny is a bit self-absorbed and to me that's very normal at that age. It affects perception. For instance in the Christmas scene - the part that I quoted - she shows that instead of considering Harry's mood and actions from Harry's point of view, she is projecting them through her own and her family's point of view.
Now, only ONE person here has a significant problem that needs sorting out, quickly.
What is ACTUALLY important is "how is Harry feeling, why is he feeling that way and how can he be helped to feel better."
But if the picture is distilled through Ginny's glass what SEEMS important (to her) is the standoff between Harry on the one hand and herself, her family and Sirius on the other. In other words: "Who was at fault? It sure wasn't us."


Posted by Prongs:
Harry was afraid to face the Weasleys because of guilt that he (in his mind) has caused Arthur to be almost killed. It says that Ron and Ginny try to get Harry out of the room, but he doesn't want to face them. As for Ginny being angry at Harry, I believe she was angry for Harry forgetting that she was possessed and more power to her. What happened to her was a form of mind rape/control/emotional violation. She is suffering from the dementors appearance in book 3, obviously there is a connecting here that she has not forgotten the pain and trauma that Riddle put her through. She does, after explaining to Harry, that he wasn't possessed, make Harry feel better.


Ginny's says they wanted to speak to him but at no stage do Ginny or Ron go up to his room and even talk from behind the door. They don't do it.
She gets angry at him BEFORE he admits he forgot about her being possessed:
"Well that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily, "seeing as you don't know anyone but me who's been possessed."
This is what I was meaning about self-absorption and perception: in this immediate situation what's important is to sort Harry out, yet she allows herself to be deflected by the thought of "that *** doesn't even remember I was possessed, and he was the one who rescued me!"
Have it out with the guy some other time. It's like stopping in the midst of rescuing a tramper suffering from hypothermia to get in a huff about the fact that he doesn't remember that she once suffered from hypothermia herself.


Posted by Prongs:
The above scene shows how Hermione is not girl friend material to Harry. First of all, Fred and George are talking to Harry, not Hermione and Hermione just decides to butt in to the conversation. She is treating him like he is an idiot who can't make decisions for himself.
Ginny is supporting Harry in his decision to talk to Sirius. She knows that this is clearly eating away at Harry and it is very important for him to do so. This is what a girlfriend is supposed to do. Ginny is giving him hope in this situation. This was the last time Harry gets to have a meaningful conversation with Sirius and Ginny helped bring this about. You can discount the importance of it all you want, but Ginny helped Harry with a personal matter, which is the primary role of a girlfriend/wife/significant other and Harry isn't sure if its the chocolate that makes him feel better or Ginny. That, IMO, is complete foreshadowing to H/G romantic relationship.


1) Fred and George come over to them, 2) she's his best friend, she cares about him 3) she doesn't treat him like an idiot who can't make decisions for himself. She knows he's impetuous and liable to do something rash, take a huge risk and very likely suffer the consequences. She's concerned about his welfare. She tries to influence him, advise him. She acts protectively towards him.
Again we come back to the question of wants versus needs. Ginny helps Harry get what he wants but that doesn't make it right. A person may be an alcoholic and want a bottle and one friend does what he wants and gets him a bottle. Another friend says no, be strong, resist the urge. Who's right?
I strongly reject this idea that a girlfriend's purpose is to comply with her man's wishes, help him get what he wants whether it's right or wrong, not offer any contrary opinions as Ginny does. That is not an equal relationship.

At this point I see a need to remind us all that the D.A. was Hermione’s idea and that she organized it to help Harry. Seems like she understands Harry’s need for acting and not just dwelling on it so Hermione helps buy organizing a way that Harry can deal with his trials and help himself and others as well while at the same time giving him an outlet to deal with his problems.

Silly me that I clearly though and was proven that Hemrmione did that all for her own protection. :whistle: I can't remember the page number were she said that she did for Harry. I do remember he saying something like 'to defend ourselves if we don't learn anything' something along those lines. Perhaps she felt the same way. Knowing that you can do something on your own gives great sense of pride. Hers must have been up the roof. Obviously she knows that is important to protect themselves. I had no idea this was all just for Harry! :rolleyes:

Now who’s idea was it to check to see if Sirius was really captured? Hermione’s. Right. Now when Harry needs to justify himself he falls back on Hermione and her reasoning. How much worse could he have felt if he couldn’t have even claimed that much.

Yet he never gives her credit for it! He never thinks of it or says that she force him to do so. Feel greatfull for it. Never he does that. He just thinks of himself.

I don't know the specific interview off hand, but I can look it up if you wish. I believe the subject was people worrying more about Ron than Hermione, and JKR being surprised, saying that she thought Hermione was one of the most vulnerable characters. Like I said, I'm in a hurry, but if you still want specifics later, I will do my best to find it for you.

Oh I remember this one. Yeah she did say that. I can't remember if it was that one also but in one she said. They think she is bound to be ok because she smart.

Have you ever feeling it is wrong to anger, yet you are? Have you insult someone when you know you should not? There are time when a person know what is best yet they do not act on their logic. Hermione seem try to help him. Hermione is nagging by nature. She do not only nagging Harry, but Ron as well. Why it is never a negative thing when she do so to Ron though? The point is whoever wants to have a relationship with her have to accept her as she is. She may become less nagging as she grow but it will always be in her as far as I can see.

And Harry won't be a person who will apreciate Naggin. Ron? I don't know ask the R/Hr shippers. This isn't about Harry being angry at Hermione. Is about Harry being bother by Hermione actions constantly thru out OoP. Her nagging became annoying to Harry in OoP.

Ginny stand up to Harry
I would not say Ginny does not stand up to Harry, because there is not enough evident to point one way or the other. The time she mention she has been possed and know how Harry feel, is not a good example. Harry is directly insult to her by forget about her experience. She can be simply response about the insult. Until they are truely argue on an issue, I do not know do Ginny stand up to Harry or not.

To me she clearly does. It was shown there and several times thru the book.

Gily Ann

turambar:

Ginny is his friend's younger sister, someone who's been around as a member of his favourite family, the Weasleys. But he hasn't had much to do with her: she's someone he gets on with now in a friendly but still a distant way. It's a bit like the difference between Harry's feelings for Ron and his feelings for the twins.

Except the simple fact that Harry doesn't describe the twins and Ron as blushing like "glowing like the setting sun", the day she was taken in the Chamber was "the worst day of his life", he doesn't mentioned their "bright brown eyes" and "she was curled up like a cat in her chair, her eyes reflected in the firelight", he also doesn't describe the boys as, "Ginny was very taken with Harry". Taken, in this situation, means not fangirl crush, but enchanted.

Except the simple fact that Harry doesn't describe the twins and Ron as blushing like "glowing like the setting sun", the day she was taken in the Chamber was "the worst day of his life", he doesn't mentioned their "bright brown eyes" and "she was curled up like a cat in her chair, her eyes reflected in the firelight", he also doesn't describe the boys as, "Ginny was very taken with Harry". Taken, in this situation, means not fangirl crush, but enchanted.

Well Harry can't because Ron and the twins haven't a fan-crush at him.
If you has ever see a redhead girl blushed than I swear you did describe just like that even you don't like her.
This aren't any proofs or hints for H/G.

To me she clearly does. It was shown there and several times thru the book.

Did you ever think about what had been happen if not Hermione was there and did argue with Harry it was insteed Ginny which had just agreed to follow him?

Have you? Because if you did than you might agree with me Harry had never check after Sirius, or? Because they were never come that far to this conversation like Harry and Hermione.

If you want to know I'm sure this fight is the best thing what could happen to H/Hr. This will play an important part in book6 like it did already at the end of book5.

An agreeing Ginny could have never give Harry that what Hermione did give to Harry with her doubts. Nobody did try to hold him back to do this but Hermione and that makes this fight so special. Because here lies Harrys possible to deal with Sirius's dead. With Ginny, He never would have this chance. He would suffer by far more.

Prongs:
And Harry also says "said Ginny, her jaw set so that her resemblance to Fred and George was suddenly striking."
I can't say I'd appreciate anyone comparing how I look to how my brother looks.
We've been over the whole "worst day of his life" quote a hundred times. He felt bad because the WEASLEYS felt bad.
And just on that 1) he forgets all about Ginny being possessed and 2) he calls her "your sister" when it comes up again. A bit impersonal, don't you think? And it shows how he thinks of her in terms of her relationship to Ron.
And also his only response when told she's given up on him is to say 'oh, so that's why she talks now.' He's not attracted to her IMO.

Nice posts there Turambar and Fp!

DumbledoretheWise

When below a quoted section from one of my posts, I asuume that response is direted at me, especially when the subject matter is the same. Sorry for the confusion.

Assuming is even more dangerous than blanket statements.

The reason I was commenting is that you didn't clarify. When have I or Prongs ever said that if she stands up for Harry she was wrong?
I made my comment about your post being "rude" because I felt that the way you phrased and delivered things was uncharacteristically cold of you.

No. My post was uncharacteristically anti H/G. My posts are always cold and I try to separate myself from my emotions when I am debating or when I am analyzing text. If I approach the text from a certain POV or allow my emotions to be a factor then I will see what I want to see regardless of what is truly written. The same goes for posts. If I do not approach them from a open POV then I could miss something that bears a closer examination.

I also try to keep my posts in the area of pro H/Hr, rebuttals, and examination of text. I seldom base posts on pure opinion and I seldom offer negative opinions. However from time to time we all offer negative and opinion related posts.

This is also the great danger in debating a H/G shipper as their posts are largely opinion. I have submitted several posts citing both textual and evidence from the interviews that have shown flaws in the H/G ship and have been offered opinion in return. I simply gave mine this time.

Blanket statements do nothing productive in the sake of argument.

Here I strongly disagree. Blanket statements encourage different people to respond as opposed to the ones that begin with a certain posters name in bold face which most people then regard as a private duel and simply skip over the debate. My blanket statement got a response from Fairydust and had I began that with a certain persons name in the post she might have skipped it entirely.

That is an unfair statement, that H/G people are incapable or don't care to approach the points objectively. Many H/G'ers have worked very hard to do so. Even if it has occured, H/Hr is not immune to this either.

In no way, shape, or form would I try to claim immunity for H/Hr shippers. It is often a fault that lies in all of us. However I have addressed to me what is a weakness in the H/G ship. That they approach the text with the theory that H/G will happen and then go from there. Now I have submitted the following text

Ginny no longer fancies Harry.
Ginny was dating Michael
Ginny knows that Michael is now with Cho, that Harry is once again available and she chooses Dean over Harry.

This has been established in the text. In return I have heard that these are red herrings and nothing more. What in the text could possibly establish these as red herrings? Short of we think that H/G is the end result and we are sticking to it. These are basic statements. They are not partial conversations that Harry walked in on. There is nothing in the text to even begin to establish that these are red herrings, short of we still believe that H/G is the final result and that’s it.

My reasoning against not using blanket statements is simple. Within a ship there are disagreements. I may agree with some, but not all, of something GilyAnn or Prongs said. To assume you know the opinion of all members of a ship only leasds to problems later.I have argued many times for Hermione's importance to Harry's life, and you won't find me bashing her as a nagging, bossy, inedaquate person. you will seee me look "objectively" and the way certain characters react to Harry, and discuss which would be most beneficial to him should a relationship occur.

Your reasoning is noted. But as I stated above I see blanket statements as beneficial to general conversation and I shall continue to use them. I have already given my reasons and I shall not give them again. Now I have seem your pages and as I’m at work right now and do not have my books but I shall examine your list and reply to that later. After that I shall continue to post as is allowed in this thread and blanket posts are permitted. You might want to see my responses to your proof or you might not. Either way after that I shall continue to post and from time to time use blanket statements to receive feedback from various posters on the other ships. If you do not like my blanket statements then you may choose to ignore my posts or put me on your ignore list so that my posts are blocked.

I can't end a post with a statement about the kind of posts occurring? Sorry, but I percieved this as unnecessary comment meant to cap off an already belittling H/G R/Hr shipper post.

1) Perhaps I perceived your comment the same way.
2) When did I address Hr/R in that post?

Cheers!

turambar

This is completely OT, but I noticed you are a LOTR fan. Did you know the first trailer comes out tomorrow at the theatres? I'm trying to find out what movie it's attached to. Sigh...Excitement over a trailer is pathetic, isn't it?

FP:

Well Harry can't because Ron and the twins haven't a fan-crush at him.
If you has ever see a redhead girl blushed than I swear you did describe just like that even you don't like her.
This aren't any proofs or hints for H/G.

Insert Ron or Fred or George's name in this sentence and tell me it's not shippy.

Ron was curled up in his chair, his eyes were reflecting in the firelight; Ron retrieved his bowl, glowing like the setting sun. I see it as definite proof for H/G.

And Harry also says "said Ginny, her jaw set so that her resemblance to Fred and George was suddenly striking."
I can't say I'd appreciate anyone comparing how I look to how my brother looks.
We've been over the whole "worst day of his life" quote a hundred times. He felt bad because the WEASLEYS felt bad.
And just on that 1) he forgets all about Ginny being possessed and 2) he calls her "your sister" when it comes up again. A bit impersonal, don't you think? And it shows how he thinks of her in terms of her relationship to Ron.
And also his only response when told she's given up on him is to say 'oh, so that's why she talks now.' He's not attracted to her

They are related, of course there are going to be familial resemblances. Regarding the worst day of Harry's life quote, it was emphasized (twice). Surely one time would have sufficed. He is concerned with the Weasley's yet his focus is on Ginny and even after he rescues her his focus is bringing her to safety and making sure she isn't expelled. If I remember correctly, Harry feels "warm, sweeping, glorious relief" that Ginny isn't expelled. Powerful emotions for a girl he hardly knows and is simply "Ron's sister".

Ron was curled up in his chair, his eyes were reflecting in the firelight; Ron retrieved his bowl, glowing like the setting sun. I see it as definite proof for H/G.

A boy does hardley ever curling up in a chair. But anyway this are describtion how Harry view things and if Ginny did look like that than she did. Harry did describe Parvati even nice why not ship H/Pa ?


Regarding the worst day of Harry's life quote, it was emphasized (twice). Surely one time would have sufficed. He is concerned with the Weasley's yet his focus is on Ginny and even after he rescues her his focus is bringing her to safety and making sure she isn't expelled. If I remember correctly, Harry feels "warm, sweeping, glorious relief" that Ginny isn't expelled. Powerful emotions for a girl he hardly knows and is simply "Ron's sister".

First you argue that the Weasleys are Harrys family than you say Harry react in COS about Ginny worried because he has something for her. Isn't it possible that Harry act like a big brother and want give the Weasleys that back what they gave him in COS. They did rescue him from Privet Drive. Gave him a home. They were all nice and lovely to him. Do you really expect that Harry don't has big feelings if he knows Ginny might be dead or if she is instead alive or that she isn't expelled? This isn't far to think that Harry react like that because Ginny is the little Weasley. The one who need the most protection and is the most important person for the weasleys. She is only 11 and the last child of Molly and Arthur Weasley. Off course Harry don't want any harm to this family because they did give him a home and love. What do you expect? That Harry just steps over Ginny who is lieing on the floor and ask "Where is the basilisk?" this isn't very much believable or that Harry thinks "Such a bad luck at least they could expelled her, but no...!"
I don't see how Harry should feel different if the weasleys are that what he always wanted. Sorry I can't follow you

Did you ever think about what had been happen if not Hermione was there and did argue with Harry it was insteed Ginny which had just agreed to follow him?

Have you? Because if you did than you might agree with me Harry had never check after Sirius, or? Because they were never come that far to this conversation like Harry and Hermione.

If you want to know I'm sure this fight is the best thing what could happen to H/Hr. This will play an important part in book6 like it did already at the end of book5.

An agreeing Ginny could have never give Harry that what Hermione did give to Harry with her doubts. Nobody did try to hold him back to do this but Hermione and that makes this fight so special. Because here lies Harrys possible to deal with Sirius's dead. With Ginny, He never would have this chance. He would suffer by far more.

:no: :no: Excuse me! Ginny wasn't there when they were arguing! What guarantees you have she would have agreed with Harry. In fact she agrees to help Hermione on her plan. So she is siding with Hermione. Harry is saying that Sirius is being torture that they have to go now. If she would be siding with Harry she would have gone against Hermione and round on her. But instead she agrees to help on Hermione's plan not Harry's!

He felt bad because the WEASLEYS felt bad.
And just on that 1) he forgets all about Ginny being possessed and 2) he calls her "your sister" when it comes up again. A bit impersonal, don't you think? And it shows how he thinks of her in terms of her relationship to Ron.
And also his only response when told she's given up on him is to say 'oh, so that's why she talks now.' He's not attracted to her IMO.

It doesn't say that his sad because of the Weasley's. In fact Harry's feelings are being separated from the Weasley's feeligns. About the sister thing, it basically says that Harry doesn't think of Ginny as his sister but Ron's sister sort of a reminder to it or more to him. And his remark and perception on the boyfriend thing are all not clear. Because what he thinks is doesnt relate to cannon. His perception there is false. I wonder why JKR set out a false perception on Harry in there. If she knows that Ginny did talk to Harry before that time. She even goes to the point of telling us that Harry's head is still full of Cho's parting wave.

Gily Ann

Great posts Hawk, Ture, FP and haycheng on that lovely post about Hermione nagging Ron as well. :)

Harry doesn't need to know the truth because he knows it. What he's bother is by her nagging.

If he's bothered by her nagging, then he's bothered that her nagging words, which are to convince Harry not to go along with the plan because he could caught and expelled from Hogwarts.


I have a different view on there and I'm not getting your point.

If you have a different view then that means you got my point. But just in case, check this bit of one of Hawk's posts:

<snip>I also noticed that Hermione defers to Harry a good bit after he considers her point of view. After the decision is made Hermione goes along and even though she is against it she does her best to help Harry succeed. Actions tend to speak louder than words.<snip>

In other words Harry and Hermione compromised. Hawk said it very clearly. I hope you understood him.



Oh please! :rotfl: I have no reason to believe that it wasn't moral support what she gave him. Off course you may add that the egg had draught of peace, veritasium hey! what about a love potion! You see there you have something you can work on! :rotfl:

Alrighty then, time to "whip out" the good old online dictionaries:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org

moral support - If you give someone moral support, you encourage them and show that you approve of what they are doing, rather than giving them practical help.
----------------------------------------------
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?search=moral

moral adjective
1. involving right and wrong: relating to issues of right and wrong and to how individuals should behave[/b]
2. derived from personal conscience: based on what somebody’s conscience suggests is right or wrong, rather than on what the law says should be done
3. in terms of natural justice: regarded in terms of what is known to be right or just, as opposed to what is officially or outwardly declared to be right or just a moral victory.
4. encouraging goodness and respectability: giving guidance on how to behave decently and honorably
5. good by accepted standards: good or right, when judged by the standards of the average person or society at large
6. telling right from wrong: able to distinguish right from wrong and to make decisions based on that knowledge
7. based on conviction: based on an inner conviction, in the absence of physical proof

noun
1. valuable lesson in behavior: a conclusion about how to behave or proceed drawn from a story or event
2. final sentence of story giving advice: a short, precise rule, usually written in a rather literary style as the conclusion to a story, used to help people remember the best or most sensible way to behave
-------------------------------------------

Now let's look at Ginny and Harry in the library scene. American Edition Ch.29 Career Advice P. 655 (bold emphasis mine):

Harry tells Ginny he wishes to speak to Sirius.
"Well," said Ginny slowly, helping herself to a bit of egg, too, "if you really want to talk to Sirius, I expect we could think of a way to do it...."

"Come on," said Harry dully. "With Umbridge policing the fires and reading all our mail?"

"The thing about growing up with Fred and George," said Ginny thoughfully, "is that you sort of start thinking anything's possible if you've got enough nerve."
-------------------------------------


Now let's go back to the Cambridge definition:
"If you give someone moral support, (a)you encourage them and (b)show that you approve of what they are doing, rather than giving them practical help."

(a) Yes Ginny does encourage Harry, but she encourages him to do something wrong.

(b) Ginny approves of Harry's plans to enter Umbridge's office, (which btw he knows is wrong since this scene), but again she doesn't consider at all that what he is planning is wrong. She's skirting the problem. This is where the definition moral comes in.

Please check out the italicized parts of Encarta:
All of these definitions make one thing clear, the distinction of right and wrong.
Ginny is 14 years old. She should know by now that breaking and entering is wrong. She maybe thinking that helping Harry out is a good thing, but has she thought about the repercussion to his actions? What if Harry gets caught? Wll he get expelled? Will he serve detention? What will that awful Umbridge woman do to Harry?!

Again, she's not thinking at all what is right or wrong in regards to Harry entering Umbridge's office and what will happen if Harry gets caught. She does not question him or the plan. She doesn't know the reason Harry wants to talk to Sirius. How is she to know if breaking and entering is worth it? Harry has a multitude of mood swings in this book, what if this was just a passing mood swing? She doesn't interrogate so therefore she cannot give him correct advice. She sees what he wants, finds a "solution" and that's that. She's not even involved in this plan. She's just a mediator. She transfers Harry's info to Fred and George and then breaks out. So if anything happens to Harry, Fred and George she doesn't get into trouble.

In conclusion, Ginny does NOT give Harry moral support.

Off to watch Escándalo T.V. Peace.

Excuse me! Ginny wasn't there when they were arguing! What guarantees you have she would have agreed with Harry. In fact she agrees to help Hermione on her plan. So she is siding with Hermione. Harry is saying that Sirius is being torture that they have to go now. If she would be siding with Harry she would have gone against Hermione and round on her. But instead she agrees to help on Hermione's plan not Harry's!

This avoiding off my statement. First you say Ginny understand Harry better as Hermione does because she not argues and now as I suggest what If Harry did speak first with Ginny or If Hermione had react like Ginny and did agree you say What guarantees you have she would agreed with Harry?
Maybe because she thought like Ron in this situation? You did suggest that Ron was logical and Hermione not that she did overrule Harry just to be right. Now Ginny don't has this flaw and she wouldn't do so. This say she wouldn't ask Questuions like Hermione and just follow Harry what she in the end did.
At this moment Ginny wasn't in the possition to say anything against Hermione because it was not her buisness. Its like grown up decide and childrens have to shut up.

Because that negate Ginnys doing in the library. We all know why JKR did choice this scene with Hermione and not Ginny who agrees with Harry because in that case everybody expect of Sirius were dead. Not that good for the plot I suppose. Its seems Ginny has at this point a major flaw and this say she is not able to argue.

:clap: Great post Grace. I just loved the part about moral this is so true :D

Quote:

Hermione's constant pattern of nagging, bossing and mothering Harry has been noticeable since the beginning. I don't feel that these behaviors are particularly romantic in nature. There comes a time in Harry's life when he has to make his own decisions and he can certainly ask others for advice, but Hermione needs to know when to give advice, rather than just scream it out at him. Is she right most of the time, Yes, but do you think Harry wants to spend the rest of his life being nagged to death by his wife? I sure don't!

Hawk92

This could get personal so I hope that you do not view the following as rude. This will of course stem from how we as individuals view a certain relationship. I do not view Hermione giving her opinion as nagging and I think that Harry is strong enough to do what he wants to in the end. The pattern I have seen is Hermione and Ron fight about something and then Harry makes a decision. In OotP we saw a shift in this as it was Harry and Hermione working out the opposite ends of the problem and then going together to solve it. I also noticed that Hermione defers to Harry a good bit after he considers her point of view. After the decision is made Hermione goes along and even though she is against it she does her best to help Harry succeed. Actions tend to speak louder than words. I have no problem with a intelligent opinionated woman, especially if she’s right, I value their opinion and look at is an a opportunity to get a new perspective on a problem.

We have to bear in mind that Harry’s character, whilst very brave, is extremely introverted really even until OoP, where he opens up in spurts, so to speak, but still not on a regular basis. Also, he has no one else in his life who is there on a daily basis to give him the sort of attention that comes with unconditional love – since he has no parents, siblings, or even girlfriend at this point or whomever, to look after his physical wellbeing. Hermione has taken it upon herself, surely out of love [whether platonic or more] and her own sense of responsibility, which is obviously a part of who she is. Who knows why she feels the need to look after Harry whilst others figure he can take of himself [remember, his life is danger frequently, so she’s really not too far off, but putting that aside…]? It’s a matter of her personality, her experiences to date, and so forth. There’s still a lot we don’t know about Hermione and her family history.

But the bottom line is that she cares too much for Harry to see him fail or get hurt due to the simple negligence of others including herself, at least as far as she is concerned. Hermione has grasped an essential truth, which is that we are all our brothers’ keepers [and sisters’]. Failing to act out of carelessness or negligence is still one’s own failure, no one else’s. Hermione has to live with herself, and I don’t see her failing to help anyone where she sees that it could fall to her to make the critical difference. How much more likely to act would she be on behalf of Harry, who is a part of her life? I have to say that this aspect of Hermione’s character really resonates with me.

I see what the H/G side is saying, and sometimes you do need to let others have their space and come to their own decisions in their own time. However, it’s a matter of knowing when you must cross that boundary and ‘interfere’. If someone’s life is at stake, and you fail to act when it is in your power to do so, the consequences can be devastating and absolute. Let me put it another way. Others may feel that it is not their responsibility to safeguard Harry, or whomever else. But say a person drops something and it is out of their reach or ability to retrieve it. Let’s say that certain something would be within your ability to retrieve it but you did not do so, whether out of negligence [not paying attention], lack of information [where was object last seen?], uncertainty [will it matter at this point?], or whatever. Perhaps you were looking the other way and felt it would be pointless to even try to recover it at that point, that it was lost and there was nothing you could do. But if it was potentially or possibly in your power to recover it, shouldn't you at least have tried to do so?

What one is really acknowledging is twofold: 1) a lack of faith in one's own ability to make a difference and 2) a lack of awareness of our interconnectedness and that we are all our brother’s keepers. Ginny, Ron, or whomever would probably feel, and in all sincerity, that they didn’t have all the information to act or interfere, or trusted that DD or someone else was probably already taking care of it, or whatever. But in retrospect, would any of that really matter? Would it even make sense to them after the fact? No, it wouldn’t. It wouldn’t make any sense at all. All that would matter is that they failed to act. And that’s something they’d have to live with. I say err forever on the side of caution; better to step on toes than lose lives. Luckily Hermione pays attention [not just in Herbology]. Constant vigilance, my friends, constant vigilance, because there are no indifferent acts. And no time outs or replays for not knowing where the line is drawn.


Quote: Even more disturbing than Hermione's nagging and bossing behavior, is Harry's continuing pattern on ignoring her and lying to her. Please tell me when lying is considered a good thing in a marriage or serious romantic relationship, because it isn't.

Hawk92
Yet in the end Harry realizes that Hermione was right (MO follows) and was trying in the best way that she knows how to show how she loves him. I have pointed out several times that Harry simply tells Ginny she is not involved in this or refers to her as Ron’s little sister. Its also very interesting that Harry can relax around Ginny and vice versa after the romance is removed from between them.

and...

noddwyd
I like how he refers to it as a talisman. In reality there probably was some powerful magic working there. A powerful force of truth against the ministries and Umbridge's lies. Or something like that. It also represents Hermione's love for Harry and her own desire to protect him, from himself and others.


Agreed, gents. On all points.

EDIT: great post, Nia, & I really like the nontraditional yin/yang comparison.

[QUOTE=Hawk 92] (emphasis mine)

Quote:(Person Hawk92 is replying to)
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Actually, he tells Hermione that he can think about the consequences for himself, which he clearly has, and she ignores his protest. She may be right, but that's not the point, Harry is a big boy, he can make decisions and past a certain point, Hermione needs to let him be independent.
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And here DumbledoretheWise condemns her for the same thing that Prongs Sr. praised in Ginny. And DumbledoretheWise ignores the fact that Harry tries to convince Hermione that he is right after he tells Ginny that its non of her business and simply swears at Luna and thinks that the last thing he needs is a conversation with Luna Lovegood.

One could ask oneself why does Harry try to convince Hermione so? Why not just go. Surely Harry could do it by himself? Why does he want Hermione with him? He tries to convince her and simply tells the others (except Ron) to go away and stay out of it.


ME: Good point Hawk92

:)

Off topic, but I just wanted to stop in and respond to Prongs, Sr.. I think the ROTK trailer is supposed to be attached to the movie Secondhand Lions. It might just be a rumor, though...


Great posts, everyone. Please proceed! :D

If he's bothered by her nagging, then he's bothered that her nagging words, which are to convince Harry not to go along with the plan because he could caught and expelled from Hogwarts.

What? I don't understand your point here.

In other words Harry and Hermione compromised. Hawk said it very clearly. I hope you understood him

I still don't understand your point.

Moral support:

What I found:

Moral:

Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.

Support:

To keep from weakening or failing; strengthen: The letter supported him in his grief.

Your definition:

If you give someone moral support, you encourage them and show that you approve of what they are doing, rather than giving them practical help.

Problem is that Harry is not doing anything because he thinks that he can't talk to Sirius. So by your definition. Ginny is telling Harry not to do anything. She's is actually aproving that Harry is not doing anything to talk to Sirius.

Yes Ginny does encourage Harry, but she encourages him to do something wrong.

The plan on Umbridge's office came AFTER they talked not before. Ginny didn't planned that there. According to the H/Hr she didn't planned that, the twins did. So Ginny couldn't haven given her support on something that had not happend.

Ginny approves of Harry's plans to enter Umbridge's office, (which btw he knows is wrong since this scene), but again she doesn't consider at all that what he is planning is wrong. She's skirting the problem. This is where the definition moral comes in

Huge problem here. Harry never planned that. According to H/Hr shippers neither did Ginny. That's the twins idea. So she is not aproving of anything in here. Mostly because that happens after H/G talk.

All of these definitions make one thing clear, the distinction of right and wrong.
Ginny is 14 years old. She should know by now that breaking and entering is wrong. She maybe thinking that helping Harry out is a good thing, but has she thought about the repercussion to his actions? What if Harry gets caught? Wll he get expelled? Will he serve detention? What will that awful Umbridge woman do to Harry?!

Again, she's not thinking at all what is right or wrong in regards to Harry entering Umbridge's office and what will happen if Harry gets caught. She does not question him or the plan. She doesn't know the reason Harry wants to talk to Sirius. How is she to know if breaking and entering is worth it? Harry has a multitude of mood swings in this book, what if this was just a passing mood swing? She doesn't interrogate so therefore she cannot give him correct advice. She sees what he wants, finds a "solution" and that's that. She's not even involved in this plan. She's just a mediator. She transfers Harry's info to Fred and George and then breaks out. So if anything happens to Harry, Fred and George she doesn't get into trouble.

Again problem is that H/Hr shippers claim that Ginny never planned that. Like you said she just passes the info to Fred and George. According to the H/Hr is them who planned this not Ginny or Harry. So she's not actually encouraging Harry to do something wrong. She just went to the twins, according to H/Hr's.

Ginny does NOT give Harry moral support.


So according to all of this definitions by you. Ginny simply listens to Harry gives and supports his idea of not talking to Sirius.


Go2gto be back to answer FP.
gily ann

Nice shootin', Hawk! Great job, Flying Phoenix, thanks for the link! Evaluna, as always, quite brilliant! Turambar and Haycheng, really thoughtful ideas! Noddwyd, marvelous nugget! I loved it!
Nice point, Tree Guardian!


Originally Posted by Fairydust:

Who says Hermione's not important? Hermione's important. But she's not the most important. Many a times in shipping posts I've read it states that Hermione and Harry have this celestial friendship almost. That they're so high above everyone else and that Harry's and her's relationship is the most important. I and I'm sure a few others, would disagree. Hermione's importatnt to Harry, she's one of his best friends, but their are others that mean a lot to him, too. Ron, the other Weasley's, Dumbledore, Hagrid. Saying that Hermione is the most important out of the bunch is just wrong in my opinion.


Ron deeply cares for Harry as does Sirius and Hagrid and Dumbledore, but Ron is now in the process of becoming his own person. Although he is unfailingly supportive, he initiates nothing to help Harry’s terrible psychological ordeal in OoP. He never challenges Harry to look at things from other perspectives or to seek out the truth of things. Ron simply leaves him to his own decisions. This could be a male thing, as I was told that men don’t typically insinuate themselves into their friend’s personal lives. I'd appreciate a male perspective on this. ;)

Sirius, on the other hand, is dealing with his own issues. He is preoccupied with self-pity and sees Harry as a reincarnation of his best friend, James. Hagrid has become preoccupied with family ties and Dumbledore is not close enough to Harry to see all that Hermione sees. And she does see Harry, and only Harry (as Flying Phoenix so eloquently put it) Hermione is not afraid to trespass on his heart and soul and mind to truly know who Harry is. Is this intrusive? Maybe, but Harry has no one who knows him so intimately. (This is not about romance, it’s about honest, real friendship at this point) Yes, Harry and Hermione do have a celestial friendship that anyone could have IF they were willing to set aside self to really know another person. From this standpoint, Hermione knows Harry better than anyone else and for this reason, she is more important to him. Her knowledge of him helped him make it through his horrendous fifth year. None of his other friends could say the same.

I love this statement of Evaluna's

We have to bear in mind that Harry’s character, whilst very brave, is extremely introverted really even until OoP, where he opens up in spurts, so to speak, but still not on a regular basis. Also, he has no one else in his life who is there on a daily basis to give him the sort of attention that comes with unconditional love – since he has no parents, siblings, or even girlfriend at this point or whomever, to look after his physical wellbeing. Hermione has taken it upon herself, surely out of love [whether platonic or more] and her own sense of responsibility, which is obviously a part of who she is. Who knows why she feels the need to look after Harry whilst others figure he can take of himself [remember, his life is danger frequently, so she’s really not too far off, but putting that aside…]? It’s a matter of her personality, her experiences to date, and so forth. There’s still a lot we don’t know about Hermione and her family history.

But the bottom line is that she cares too much for Harry to see him fail or get hurt due to the simple negligence of others including herself, at least as far as she is concerned. Hermione has grasped an essential truth, which is that we are all our brothers’ keepers [and sisters’]. Failing to act out of carelessness or negligence is still one’s own failure, no one else’s. Hermione has to live with herself, and I don’t see her failing to help anyone where she sees that it could fall to her to make the critical difference. How much more likely to act would she be on behalf of Harry, who is a part of her life? I have to say that this aspect of Hermione’s character really resonates with me.

And with me!

I simply cannot understand why Hermione’s importance to Harry has to become a shipping issue sorepoint.

JKR herself has said Harry needs Hermione badly—not just her brains, but the totality of who she is. Intelligence is much, much more than simply what you know--it is an amalgamation of your perceptions and wisdom and intuitive ability to synthesize diverse bits of information and apply this processed knowledge to practical situations. I have said this before, but it is very rare to see an intelligent, knowledgeable young person between the ages of 11-15 who is also able to APPLY book-acquired information to diverse practical scenarios. Hermione is an exceptional individual. She is the kind of person most normal kids are highly jealous or in awe of. Perhaps that is why she receives so much battering on the boards. We also must remember we are reading fiction. There would be absolutely nothing to keep us turning the pages if there were no conflict. Hermione’s numerous cautions are used by JKR as an expositional device to remind us the readers of the critical danger of the situations Harry gets into. We are so conditioned by media to see the hero blazing into a phenomenally dangerous situation and coming out without a scratch, that we have been deluded into believing that the hero could not get killed. With all due respect, the insistence of some posters that Ginny did not put Harry in danger by facilitating his floo-powder talk with Sirius is evidence of this.

Hermione is critically important to keeping Harry alive until he can finally confront Voldemort. She is Harry's ‘voice of reason.’ No one has Harry’s ear like Hermione, not even Dumbledore.

I also am of the opinion that Hermione's role has solid literary roots--

In most classic epic hero tales, there is a female figure that acts as a type of oracle of truth as well as the hero’s spiritual guide through the many obstacles he must face. In LOTR, which is also classically styled, this figure is Galadriel, the elven queen. She tells Frodo of the dangers of the ring, gives him a glimpse of what could happen should he fail and makes him a gift of the Light of Earendil to literally help guide him in dark places. Of course, in most stories, as in LOTR, this female is a bit out of the hero’s league, although in some of the King Arthur tales, she is a great lady who is won by a knight’s valor and integrity. I think it was highly clever of JKR to make her a little girl with bushy hair and overlarge teeth, who is, from the beginning, the hero’s sidekick in the Harry Potter stories. Quite a cute, ongoing joke, really.

The pattern in classic heroic tales is for the hero to undergo a reconciliation of the two personality dynamics known as yin and yang—from the I ching (Chinese Book of Changes)and accept the path laid before him. Here, in the West, we tend to refer to them as the male and female perspectives—the male traditionally being analysis and reason and the female traditionally being heart and intuition. JKR loves to give tradition a clever little twist, so in the Harry Potter stories, we have the female having the lion’s share of analytical and reasoning ability and the male being the more intuitive and emotional one. The secret feminist in me finds this highly amusing.


In order for the hero to accomplish his task—to see his way clear--he has to reconcile these two opposing perspectives and view his problem from all angles. This entails an alliance of some kind with this female figure. In some tales, she is a love interest, in others, she is a friend and in still others she is an ally, but too removed from the hero to be called a ‘buddy.’ In all the tales, in which this female figure appears, however, the hero needs her assistance. In Harry Potter, JKR has made Hermione indispensable up to this point. In OoP, as Turambar put it so well, all of Harry’s close friends and surrogate family failed him in some way.

Hermione functions as Harry’s intellectual compliment. To approach a life or death situation from the purely intuitive and emotional standpoint could be deadly—as we saw in the DoM death of Sirius. To approach from pure analysis and rationality has an equal prospect for disaster as we saw in PoA, when the error was Hermione’s. If Harry had listened to Hermione and NOT cast the patronus, both of them would have ended up worse than dead. I’m almost certain that JKR is following this ‘marriage of perspectives’ concept when she gave us the ‘partnership’ clue in Hermione’s rune mistake. Harry and Hermione must combine their strengths in some way.

The crux of the question for SHIP discussions is whether or not JKR is writing Hermione as Harry’s ultimate love interest or whether she is a dear friend who is simply serving as his guiding light during these terrible seven years of his life.

A while back, Prongs, Sr. forwarded the idea that JKR was writing a fairy tale, with Ginny as the ‘lady’ who wins the hero’s heart.

The concept at the beginning of this post is one found often in lengthy fairy tales. JKR has undoubtedly included many, many fairy tale elements in this epic. My problem with simply concluding that this is a fairy tale and allowing Harry and Ginny to ride off on a winged something-or-other is that the Harry/Ginny dynamic is very flat and two-dimensional. Despite the fact that Ginny stands up to Harry on occasion, it adds nothing to the depth of their relationship. Ginny is too much like Harry to be of assistance when he needs to think things through. One might argue that if Hermione is to be Harry’s guide, then Ginny can be exactly the way she is and be a perfectly suitable mate.

My view is that WERE this a simple fairy tale that might do, on some level. But JKR has said herself on several occasions that her books mirror reality. The basic fairy tale scenario is too pat, too simple given the larger themes of this septology. I believe that every element in the Chamber scene of CoS had some kind of metaphoric significance—either for what Voldemort did in the past or what he will do in Books 6 and 7. On the surface it is a heroic (and for H/G shippers,) romantic scene, but if looked at from the perspective of literary device, it is not so pleasant.

JKR has told us that CoS contains many clues for the septology, and I believe the Chamber scene is no exception. We have the towering figure of Slytherin, whose aberrant ideas inspired the dread Voldemort, gigantic serpents tower over everything and then there is Ginny, the pawn of the Dark Lord, who gained access to her heart and mind because she unwittingly allowed him in. She is totally powerless and is slowly losing her life to Riddle, who orchestrates it all. Harry comes in and tries to wake her, but cannot. Riddle calls forth Slytherin’s instrument, the gigantic basilisk (who he now controls,) and Harry must do battle with it before he can confront Riddle to revive Ginny. Harry’s HEART—his love and devotion to Dumbledore, calls Fawkes to him and phoenix song encourages him, his HEART gives him access to the sword of Gryffindor—which I don’t think we have seen the last of yet. The basilisk is taken out by the sword, and Riddle is destroyed with the poison of his own weapon. Once Riddle is destroyed, Ginny, who was kept in thrall by “Voldemort” awakens and is led out of the dark place by Harry.

IMO, in this scene, Ginny represents the typical victim of Voldemort—happy and alive until he takes over. He gains access by deception but once he has hold, the victim is powerless to resist. If you notice in OoP, Voldemort used the same tactic on Harry. He gained access by deception. Had it not been for his success in saving Arthur, Harry would never have believed that Voldemort had Sirius in the DoM.

I am convinced that Ginny will participate in the war against Voldemort. It would be poetic justice and symbolically significant if a former victim of the Dark Lord should rise to help overthrow him. I cannot, however, see that she is to be the ultimate love interest of the lead character. She fits too much the image of a character ‘type’ to be matched with as deeply developed a character as Harry. One poster called her a ‘flat’ character. I think flat characters fall into the category of Mundungus Fletcher and Arabella Figg, who will probably be exactly the same in Book 7. Ginny has been given some small and rather abrupt development, but we still know almost nothing about her. Not at all meaning to denengrate this character, but I see Ginny as a spunky girl with a sense of humor who doesn’t think too deeply about things. We are not even given any hints that there may be more psychological depth to her than we are allowed to see as in the character of Luna Lovegood, who is endlessly fascinating. In a fairy tale, we rarely know much more about the hero than his name and the fact that he is brave. It doesn’t matter that the girl he loves is not given much development either. In a fairy tale it is more about the story and not necessarily the characters, so it really doesn’t matter.

In Harry Potter, however, we have a hero with whom we are becoming acquainted in exhaustive detail. To match him with such a character as Ginny, who the author has deliberately left unexplored, would be quite simply cheating the reader. We have been given no indication that Ginny would be able to deal with Harry’s very adult concerns on an ongoing basis and every indication that she would simply trivialize them. I’d also like to add that at this point, a sudden exhaustive development of Ginny’s character would fall into the category of very bad writing indeed, since there was no ground work laid for later surprising developments as there was with Neville.

IMO, it would be quite sweet if Ginny should see Neville’s inner strength and courage and recognize him for the hero he truly is. It would be fun to see these two as a mirror team, who lend the best of who they are to each other.

According to the coupling patterns in the series to date, if Harry is to be granted a partner, he will need someone with a similar ‘world view.’ I sincerely believe that Harry and Hermione were drawn to compliment each other and to eventually pair off. And, unless Luna or another female character we have only briefly met is given more development, I don’t see how JKR can pair Harry with anyone else and maintain the tone and the literary integrity of her story’s exposition.


Cheers,
Nia

The plan on Umbridge's office came AFTER they talked not before. Ginny didn't planned that there. According to the H/Hr she didn't planned that, the twins did. So Ginny couldn't haven given her support on something that had not happend.

This is the point she did first encourage Harry to do something wrong. Its not her plane, she didn't plane anything, she didn't help Harry and stay guardian. All what she did is to tell Harry "He can do it".
Its like I wish a new porsche tell this my friend and he runs to his brothers who get somehow a porsche. Now I have the porsche which isn't really legal and his brothers did it. I can come into jail and they can but not my friend. He is complet inocent.
Thats the very different to Hermione. She was involved and as they caught her they caught Harry, too. Both she who did plane it and he who did it are both in troubles. But by Ginny isn't like that she don't risk anything. Off course can she offer her surport its the easiest thing to do without to get involved.
She don't need to worry because she isn't at this point in any danger.

First encourage someone to do something wrong and than let him do it alone.


Nia your post does me again and again surprise because you seems to know what about you talking. I like how you describe the fairy tale path and the anti fairy tale in JKRs books.
I think Its indeed amusing to know that Hermione absolutly not fit into the "girl" which the hero normally get or that Harry is absolutly not a normal "hero" though his world around him will see him as this. Including Ron and Ginny. But Hermione not. She is focused at him and not at something else. Like it was already mentioned everybody has to do his own things only Hermione is able in OotP still to be focused at Harry. She didn't step back not yet. Now is Harry the on who will make the next step. Because of this arguement about Sirius. She did gave him with her doubts a possible to escape his own blaming for Sirius dead. Because of Hermione he did check at 12G before they went to DoM. This is the very point and Harry knows it was because of Hermione that he did it. This will lead him to go on with his live and its possible that through this the friendship between Harry and Hermione did change a great deal. That Harry thinks once more different about her. She has an ability to surprise the reader and Harry so that she grows in his eyes.

Stopping by extremely quickly to do two things: applaud Nia for a wonderful post, and to affirm Mad-I-Moody's response to Prongs' question about the ROTK trailer running with Secondhand Lions (for full details see the LOTR spoiler thread in Diagon Alley).

Humble apologies for the OT-ness. :no: There are too many things that I want to reply to at the moment, so I'll have to address it later.

Thank you, Flying Phoenix! Thanks, Earendil!

Originally Posted by Flying Phoenix:

This is the point she did first encourage Harry to do something wrong. Its not her plane, she didn't plane anything, she didn't help Harry and stay guardian. All what she did is to tell Harry "He can do it".
Its like I wish a new porsche tell this my friend and he runs to his brothers who get somehow a porsche. Now I have the porsche which isn't really legal and his brothers did it. I can come into jail and they can but not my friend. He is complet inocent.

Great analogy! :lol:

FP:
Thats the very different to Hermione. She was involved and as they caught her they caught Harry, too. Both she who did plane it and he who did it are both in troubles.

Yes, exactly! All through OoP, when Hermione comes up with plans to help Harry, she also puts herself in peril. Her committment to him is absolute.

I also loved this point which I don't think was mentioned by anyone before:

She is focused at him and not at something else. Like it was already mentioned everybody has to do his own things only Hermione is able in OotP still to be focused at Harry. She didn't step back not yet. Now is Harry the on who will make the next step. Because of this arguement about Sirius. She did gave him with her doubts a possible to escape his own blaming for Sirius dead. Because of Hermione he did check at 12G before they went to DoM. This is the very point and Harry knows it was because of Hermione that he did it. This will lead him to go on with his live and its possible that through this the friendship between Harry and Hermione did change a great deal. That Harry thinks once more different about her. She has an ability to surprise the reader and Harry so that she grows in his eyes.

Hermione has such an incredibly analytical mind that it might have occured to her that should anything terrible happen at the DoM, Harry would need to know that at least he had checked to see if Sirius was not at 12 Grimmauld Place before he went charging off to London. I find it very telling that Harry should refer to things Hermione told him three different times as he is talking to Dumbledore about what happened at the DoM. I am certain the firendship will take on a different dynamic as I am also certain that Hermione's importance has grown in Harry's eyes.

Great ideas!
Cheers,
Nia

Thanks Earendil and Mad I Moody for the tip!

Hello Nia:

Ron deeply cares for Harry as does Sirius and Hagrid and Dumbledore, but Ron is now in the process of becoming his own person. Although he is unfailingly supportive, he initiates nothing to help Harry’s terrible psychological ordeal in OoP. He never challenges Harry to look at things from other perspectives or to seek out the truth of things. Ron simply leaves him to his own decisions. This could be a male thing, as I was told that men don’t typically insinuate themselves into their friend’s personal lives. I'd appreciate a male perspective on this.

Ron does help Harry in Ootp, especially during the scene where he first discovers Umbridge's punishment and encourages Harry to talk to McGonagal or Dumbledore. Also, there are a couple of scenes, I believe around OWL time, that Harry is upset that he can't play practice Quidditch with Ron. This type of physical activity is important to Harry and Ron and, I feel, is true to life male-bonding time.

simply cannot understand why Hermione’s importance to Harry has to become a shipping issue sorepoint.

The following is a blanket statement, but H/Hrs have a tendency to put Hermione above and beyond all other characters and I find it not believable due to the tone of the books; especially as JKR, herself, as said the Ron and Hermione are sidekicks.

With all due respect, the insistence of some posters that Ginny did not put Harry in danger by facilitating his floo-powder talk with Sirius is evidence of this.

Ginny did not put Harry in danger and Harry was willing to take the risk himself. She gave him a means to have a last conversation with his godfather, which was essential to Harry's peace of mind. I feel that this last conversation, may not be important in the overall scheme of the books, but it is crucial to help Harry reconcile his confusion over his father's actions.

Hermione is critically important to keeping Harry alive until he can finally confront Voldemort. She is Harry's ‘voice of reason.’ No one has Harry’s ear like Hermione, not even Dumbledore.

[INDENT]In most classic epic hero tales, there is a female figure that acts as a type of oracle of truth as well as the hero’s spiritual guide through the many obstacles he must face. In LOTR, which is also classically styled, this figure is Galadriel, the elven queen. She tells Frodo of the dangers of the ring, gives him a glimpse of what could happen should he fail and makes him a gift of the Light of Earendil to literally help guide him in dark places. Of course, in most stories, as in LOTR, this female is a bit out of the hero’s league, although in some of the King Arthur tales, she is a great lady who is won by a knight’s valor and integrity. I think it was highly clever of JKR to make her a little girl with bushy hair and overlarge teeth, who is, from the beginning, the hero’s sidekick in the Harry Potter stories. Quite a cute, ongoing joke, really.

I don't see the parallel, as Galadriel is married to Celeleborn (I think) and is not a romantic ideal for Frodo.

The crux of the question for SHIP discussions is whether or not JKR is writing Hermione as Harry’s ultimate love interest or whether she is a dear friend who is simply serving as his guiding light during these terrible seven years of his life.

JKR has stated that she wants them to be truly seventeen and experience sexual feelings, nothing too gritty. According to this interview, it sounds like JKR is writing a romance similar to Harry/Cho in that we will see some twisting on the stomach, etc. She has had lots of opportunities to insert romantic feelings (or beginnings of them) for Hermione and yet, she has not done so. She also includes blushing as a part of those descriptions, and so far, we've seen no blushing on both Harry or Hermione's part, in regards to each other. I don't believe she will change this pattern soon, as she has said she wants them to experience sexual feelings and this is one manner in which she can do that.

A while back, Prongs, Sr. forwarded the idea that JKR was writing a fairy tale, with Ginny as the ‘lady’ who wins the hero’s heart.

The concept at the beginning of this post is one found often in lengthy fairy tales. JKR has undoubtedly included many, many fairy tale elements in this epic. My problem with simply concluding that this is a fairy tale and allowing Harry and Ginny to ride off on a winged something-or-other is that the Harry/Ginny dynamic is very flat and two-dimensional. Despite the fact that Ginny stands up to Harry on occasion, it adds nothing to the depth of their relationship. Ginny is too much like Harry to be of assistance when he needs to think things through. One might argue that if Hermione is to be Harry’s guide, then Ginny can be exactly the way she is and be a perfectly suitable mate.

I think that depends on your personal viewpoint of what a shipper considers a suitable mate, doesn't it? I would like Harry to survive and have some fun in his life and Ginny certainly has shown that she is a more likely candidate to do this than Hermione. I also feel strongly that Harry's lying pattern to Hermione has to end. I honestly can't see H/Hr happening if this behavior pattern continues.

As for Ginny, I really feel that her role in HP is just beginning. Fred and George have hinted at her power and I believe, either by birth, or by receiving a special gift of some sort when Tom poured his soul back into her, she will be a crucial means on defeating Voldemort. There are ample opportunities for her to get to know Harry better, as they are most likely going to be on the Quidditch team together.

I am convinced that Ginny will participate in the war against Voldemort. It would be poetic justice and symbolically significant if a former victim of the Dark Lord should rise to help overthrow him.

Regardless of our shipping views, I agree with you on this. Ginny was emotionally/verbally abused and violated and I would be sorely upset if she doesn't get her slice of personal retribution. As a woman, I found the scene where Harry is feeling unclean, dirty and contaminated extremely disturbing and was somewhat surprised that JKR would write this so vividly and blatantly.

Nice post, Nia. I feel that the 'secret feminist' within you is ...well...no longer secret.

Now your post. As I said - nice. But where is the killer evidence? The motive is compelling, the opportunity is available but without the evidence to nail the fact, it all amounts to very little.

I feel a JK quote coming on. We are long overdue for a quote debate.

Q: Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?
A: The answer to that is in Goblet of Fire.

This arguably the most unambiguous statement that JK has given in respect of this issue. It is a clear answer. 'The answer [to the question] is in Goblet of Fire'

Obviously R/Hr see that answer as being the Yule Ball scene culminating in Hermione's invitation to Ron to ask her next time there's a ball.

Therefore R/Hr are able to answer the question with positive evidence. Regardless of whether there is universal agreement it is evidence of a positive nature.

So, if the answer to the question is - No, Hermione does not like Ron as more than a friend, we must search for similar positive evidence that provides that answer. My challenge is, therefore (and not just aimed at you Nia), what evidence of a positive nature is there in GoF which leads to the verdict that Hermione does not like Ron as more than a friend?

So, if the answer to the question is - No, Hermione does not like Ron as more than a friend, we must search for similar positive evidence that provides that answer. My challenge is, therefore (and not just aimed at you Nia), what evidence of a positive nature is there in GoF which leads to the verdict that Hermione does not like Ron as more than a friend?

Well, no you must not search after a postive that she not like Ron because If you can't proof she likes him does this very much answer the question. You don't go and say Harry isn't friend with Terry now we have to proof he is his enemy. This isn't neccesary. If the answer is No than is it No and not Yes-

Now your post. As I said - nice. But where is the killer evidence? The motive is compelling, the opportunity is available but without the evidence to nail the fact, it all amounts to very little.

You won't find a killer evidence for any ship. Not for H/Hr, not for R/Hr, not for R/L and not for H/G or N/G.
Like you so often says we are in the hall of prophecy. If this are facts out that R/Hr already happened we didn't debatte it. We all just guessing and interpreting.

Well, no you must not search after a postive that she not like Ron because If you can't proof she likes him does this very much answer the question. You don't go and say Harry isn't friend with Terry now we have to proof he is his enemy. This isn't neccesary. If the answer is No than is it No and not Yes-
Well actually it is necessary if we're going to reconcile JK's remark that the answer is in GoF. Therefore there must be something in GoF which gives positive weight to the idea that Hermione does not like Ron as more than a friend. It doesn't require a prophecy or a prediction - just something from existing canon.

Well actually it is necessary if we're going to reconcile JK's remark that the answer is in GoF. Therefore there must be something in GoF which gives positive weight to the idea that Hermione does not like Ron as more than a friend. It doesn't require a prophecy or a prediction - just something from existing canon.

If you can't answer her question with a Yes than is the conclusion No. Its simple too me that is it like that.
I can't answer the question with Yes this say Hermione don't like Ron more as a friend. I don't need to look If she don't like him, if I can't answer JKR's question with a yes-

Good, so we agree. If you wouldn't mind, could you please explain to me how you think this "blatant" jealousy from Ron is different from what I perceive as blatant jealousy regarding Hermione and Krum?

IMO, Ron is very jealous of Hermione and Krum. I do believe that Ron has developed a crush on Hermione. I also believe that Hermione saw through this after the Yule Brawl. Afterall, Ron does wear his feelings on his sleeves, but I do not believe that Hermione reciprocate this feelings. Her lack of encouragement proves to me that she is not interested in Ron.

Perhaps, but I mean that she seems to see beyond the surface level feelings in both cases

However, Ron's feelings are on the surface. His jealousy of Harry is clear to the readers (but not to Harry because he's oblivious) We can tell that he is jealous of the attention Harry has been receiving from the Gryffindors. It doesn't take much preception to see through Ron's feelings. To the contrary, Harry's feelings are much more obscure. The fact is, a normal person would've assumed that Harry is be happy with the new found attention, because people do love attention. However, Hermione is able to see past the lion cloak and realize that Harry is *not* all that ecstatic about being the fourth champion. You can't say that Hermione notices other people's mocking and jeering of Harry and then understands this point because Harry had been nominated the previous night. After dinner that night, the Gryffindors were all cheering Harry on and giving him hugs and pats on the head. To realize that Harry does not like this attention, it would require knowledge of Harry's character and thinking. Hermione clearly understands Harry that she is able to head him off first thing in the next morning.

I do think she is defending Ron in a sense. Notice that I said she understands Ron's reasons, but doesn't agree with them. You don't need to agree with something to understand it. I understand a lot of things that I don't agree with, but that's just me. For example, I can understand the reasoning behind H/Hr, but I don't agree with it. I can understand the reasoning of why people do certain things, even if I think they made the wrong decisions. Perhaps it's just me, apparently Libra's are supposed to be good at seeing all sides.

I do think that Hermione sympathizes Ron, but she doesn't empathize with him. Also, I think you do need to agree in order to have some sort of understanding. For instance, I'm not going to lie and say I "understand" H/G's point of view. I see it as one of the many possiblities. However I don't understand it because I don't agree with it. I have merely accepted the fact that some people ship other ships and that each person has his/her different opinions. So in essence, understanding does require at least some understanding.

Actually, Hermione and Harry had just finished a conversation about how weird it was that he was fourth champion, about how Moody thought it was to hurt Harry, about how Sirius had been expecting something like that to happen, and about how the whole situation was more than a little dodgy.

Actually, Hermione *didn't* have a conversation with Harry prior to the breakfast scene. They were talking about the possiblities *during* their walk around the lake after Hermione sought Harry out. To Hermione's knowledge, Harry has been accepted as the fourth champion, and just had a wild night with all the Gryffindors cheering and partying in the common room. So how does she know that Harry doesn't like the attention? One word: understanding.

Just to clear up any confusion, I didn't mean that Hermione needed to be with him to protect him, but rather to support him when he was in a difficult and increasingly desperate situation. Harry needed Hermione more than Ron did, for valid reasons, in that moment, and that is my reasoning for why she chose to have breakfast with Harry.

The breakfast scene took place the day after Harry got his nomination. Harry hadn't received any jeers or taunts yet. So Hermione techinically didn't "need" to be there, but she went to find Harry because she "knows" that Harry won't want to be in the Great Hall.

Attention loving person or not, a person in that situation needed support, and I doubt Ron would really have enjoyed it if it was real. Just like Harry, it's fun to fantasize about, but there are clearly other, more ominous things occuring.

I'm assuming we're still on the breakfast scene; in that case, as I've stated before, Hermione doesn't know, at that point in time, that Harry will need her more than Ron will, but she goes to find Harry simply out of her reasoning and understanding of Harry's character, not out of other people's reactions.

Yeah, Harry saw through it. (Isn't that curious that he thought she would want to go with Ron? Obviously Harry thinks there is some substance to their relationship. Just kidding!)

I think you're giving Harry way too much credit. Harry is not that preceptive as we've seen in his dealings with Cho. Cho's feelings are much more obvious than Hermione's; if Harry can't even figure out Cho's feelings without Hermione's help, I don't understand how he can see through some one as ominous as Hermione.

No, the REAL point is that if she had metnioned Ron first, Harry would have said flat out "no", that's why she didn't mention Ron.

That is a possiblity, but she still approached Harry. We have no evidence to say that she approached Ron, because cannon states that Ron did not come over to talk to Hermione while they were in 3 broomsticks. If Hermione told Ron beforehand to meet her in 3 broomsticks, then Ron would have came over seeing her "apparently" sitting alone.


Hermione is on Harry's side here, therefore Ron is just as much at odds with her as with Harry because of that.
Also, I would venture that Ron knew Harry was under the invisibility cloak. Ron isn't stupid and knows that Harry has, in the past, used the IC in Hogsmeade. He would probably be able to figure out that Harry was with Hermione.

That is a lot of speculation of what Ron knows. However, we do know that Ron is not as preceptive as Hermione. Even if Harry has gone to Hogsmeade in an invisiblity cloak does not mean that he will this time. Furthermore, Ron has no reason to assume Harry is there under invisiblity cloak. To Ron, Harry is clearly enjoying the attention, so why would Harry hide underneath a cloak? Remember, Ron is jealous of Harry because he thinks that Harry is enjoying the attention while he is left out in the loop (Remember the badges fight?) So Ron has no reason to assume anything. From Ron's POV, Hermione is sitting alone, pouring over a notebook.

Why would Hermione go by herself when she could have gone with Ginny?

We had no evidence to say that Hermione is a good friend of Ginny's before OotP. So, we couldn't assume that she would go with Ginny. Furthermore, we don't know whether Ginny went to Hogsmead or not.

I understand this, but I think it is within the bonds of friendship. Hermione is not unique in this respect. Ginny also made decisions to ensure she could help Harry when he was really distraught over what he had witnessed in the Pensieve.

Where in GoF does Ginny come into the play after the pensive? Please cite the quote.

Many people act in what they believe to be the best way to ensure Harry's happiness and fulfill his needs. Dumbledore and Sirius do this too. Not that I'm saying that DD or Sirius or Ginny or Ron are better at this than Hermione,notice that all those who attempt with this with Harry fall short in some situation or another, thus is human nature.

Indeed, many people try to fulfill his needs, but Hermione provides him her rationality and her reason. Although she cares about Harry's needs, she cares more about Harry's safety. At the same time though, she also understands his pain and anguish. The combination of these two conflicting forces is what drives Hermione to tears in OotP.

But it is very common in the HP series that a person makes a lot of sacrifices for another person. If we were going to use this to justify ships, there would be a LOT of pairings.Overlapping pairings, and a klot of very odd pairings too.

I agree; however, not all of those people who sacrificed themselves are women or are Harry's age. Since we're talking about shipping here, it is necessary to limit the horizon.

But like I said before, it is my belief that she would have done the same for Ron. Hermione is a very compassionate and loving person. I do not believe these characteristics are exclusive to her relationship with Harry.

Hermione is a compassionate person, however, as you've stated before, Harry needs Hermione more than Ron. Following your post, I believe that Harry also needs Hermione's compassion more than Ron. Hermione's character doesn't limit her to one particular person, but Harry's character does.

*************
GillyAnn

She saw Ron's first remember?

I remember. She saw Ron at the breakfast table, and notices that he's jealous. Did she have a simple chat, or a deep heart to heart? We don't know. Ron's jealousy is very overt, so it wouldn't take much preception to see it. From the timing, it looks like she came directly to Harry after she found out that Ron is angry at Harry.

I'm soory but I feel she does. She is explaining in details to Harry why is Ron feeling the way he does. That for me it's understanding and explaining the feelings

There is no need to apologize. She sympathizes with Ron, but does she truly understand his reasoning? She obviously disagrees with Ron, and to achieve some kind of understanding, their has to be at least a common ground. For example, you don't see H/Hr. How can you possibly understand our POV when you don't agree with it? Especially since you wasted many posts in saying that you don't see any romance, but just friendship.

Sometimes I think that H/Hr shippers are so caught up that they forget that even though Hermione and Ron fight they are friends and they have laugh toguether. Hermione stays in Ron's house and she hangs out with him in the summers vacation. Honestly they are friends and I feel that they are very close

Don't generalize H/Hr shippers. If you're talking about me, then let me give you my personal opinion. Ron and Hermione *are* friends. They are very close friends. No one is trying to say otherwise, but IMO, they're not as close as Harry and Hermione because Harry and Hermione have more understanding.

But why does it matter the amount of time she spends with one of the other! Jkr isn't going to decide with that time who stays with who. Please forgive me but I feel that is nitpicking. It feels irrelevant to me.


Again, there is no need to ask for forgiveness. IMO, it is very relevant. Through this subtle details, JKR is showing how Hermione values her friendship with both boys. When Harry and Ron's friendship is on the verge of breaking apart, Hermione chose to spend more time with Harry.

I though it was obvious. She goes with him because Harry doesn't have much friends unlike Ron. Who obviously knows half of the school and has 2 older brothers.

Proof? Since when did Ron become Mr. Popular? The *entire* school knows who Harry Potter is; actually the entire wizarding WORLD knows who Harry potter is. To say that Harry doesn't have as many friends as Ron is simply ludicrous. Harry could have hung out with Dean and Seamus or Fred and George. Clearly, no one else knew about their broken friendship besides the trio.


Oh dear! Poor Hermione is glued and punished with Harry and Ron. Why can she just have a life on her own. She obviously need to hang out more with girls.

Hermione is not glued or punished. As you've stated before, she tries to repair their friendship. In times of crisis, how can Hermione cheerfully act oblivious to her stubborn best friends' floundering friendship?

Sorry I don't believe that Hermione is an old soul. Harry is the old soul, that was even said by JKR. Hermione is a normal teenager.

Now Hermione is a normal teenager? Wasn't it you who stated early that Hermione acts like Harry's mother? So now she is just a normal teenager like Ginny? Whoa, there's a big change, or maybe just a simple contridiction. Besides, can you post JKR's quote? I don't believe I've read it.





Sorry I disagree also here. Clearly for *me* JKR portrait how H/Hr are not suited and she clearly miss out on the oportunity to portrait a H/Hr romance.

Again, what's with the apologies. There is no need to say sorry when you're stating your opinion, unless of course, you're not sincere...Anyway, back to the point. IMO, JKR didn't miss an opportunity to create H/Hr romance. The fact that she *chose* to have Hermione believe in Harry when no one else did foreshadows future romances. It would be very odd if Harry and Hermione suddenly snogs in the middle of the library. I believe that through this simple incident, JKR shows Hermione's complete understanding of Harry's character.

Clearly stating that Harry missed Ron and that Hermione wasn't the same.

Ron and Hermione aren't the same people. Ron is the best male friend. Hermione, IMO, is more like a future girlfriend.

What kind of an author throws those lines at the future love interest?

What lines? That Hermione isn't Ron? Well she isn't; doesn't mean that Harry doesn't like Hermione. Harry misses Ron because Ron is ignoring him and breaking their friendship. Under normal circumstances, I doubt that Harry would miss Ron everytime he hangs out with Hermione.

That simply makes no sense to me. The line of she does that to trick doesn't hold any sense to me because there are many other ways to do so.

Yes, there are many different ways to write it. JKR could've made Hermione oblivious to the tension; she could've made Hermione hang out with Ron; or "better yet", she could've just let Ginny approach Harry with a stack of toast saying that she understands that he doesn't want to face everyone, and believes him when he says that he didn't put his name in the GoF when no one else did.

That was being hinted ever since PoA. It was hinted in PoA it developed in GoF and clearly it was a reality in OoP.

They're friends in OotP, but where does it imply that Hermione thinks of Ginny as a friend rather than Ron's sister?

Wait! I know you are going to tell me that Ginny and Hermione are not really friends! Right?

Oh please. Grow up GillyAnn

Where do you think Hermione stays? Good lord I hope it's not with Ron! She stays with Ginny in the QWC, they go down toguether they are seen toguether. I highly doubt that they never talk during all that time

Hermione stays with Ginny for a week during the QWC. We have not seen any interaction between them that suggests close friendship. They don't hate each other, but they certainly don't seem to be close friends in the first four books. I believe that Hermione and Ginny's friendship really developed during the month Hermione stayed in Grimmauld's place, but then again, that had been off text.

Now, mind answering my question?

If JKR really decides to copy another author's plot precisely as it is, then yes, that is copying, but I'm hoping that JKR is more original than that.

Honestly I'm ever going to get an answer? Things, stories, plot lines, interludes take your pick.

So authors copy other author's plots??? Then, why bother reading different books!? Clearly, from what you've implied, there is simply no need to read another book since these authors all 'copy' one another anyway.


Cheers!

Polaris

Quote: Nia
Ron deeply cares for Harry as does Sirius and Hagrid and Dumbledore, but Ron is now in the process of becoming his own person. Although he is unfailingly supportive, he initiates nothing to help Harry’s terrible psychological ordeal in OoP. He never challenges Harry to look at things from other perspectives or to seek out the truth of things. Ron simply leaves him to his own decisions. This could be a male thing, as I was told that men don’t typically insinuate themselves into their friend’s personal lives. I'd appreciate a male perspective on this.
Prongs Sr
Ron does help Harry in Ootp, especially during the scene where he first discovers Umbridge's punishment and encourages Harry to talk to McGonagal or Dumbledore. Also, there are a couple of scenes, I believe around OWL time, that Harry is upset that he can't play practice Quidditch with Ron. This type of physical activity is important to Harry and Ron and, I feel, is true to life male-bonding time.

Quote:[?]
I am convinced that Ginny will participate in the war against Voldemort. It would be poetic justice and symbolically significant if a former victim of the Dark Lord should rise to help overthrow him.

Prongs Sr ???
Regardless of our shipping views, I agree with you on this. Ginny was emotionally/verbally abused and violated and I would be sorely upset if she doesn't get her slice of personal retribution. As a woman, I found the scene where Harry is feeling unclean, dirty and contaminated extremely disturbing and was somewhat surprised that JKR would write this so vividly and blatantly.

Prongs, can you help me out? I understand your response to Nia, providing the male perspective. Then there is another quote from someone else re: Ginny's importance. And then what I understood as a response. Yours? Or someone else's? Is Ginny the woman to whom you're referring or is this someone else's quote? BTW to whomever this response belongs, it is a very interesting insight. Harry felt violated and contaminated by association with such a pervasive evil and rightly so. A very human response, to blame oneself and thus his reaction.

P.S.: Though one more point...if I remember correctly either you &/or Fairydust and perhaps some others have mentioned more than once that Harry's likewise very realistic feelings of shock, immediately followed by blame and guilt at the DoM concerning Hermione's possible death were less than realistic. Or perhaps just less than realistic if he loved her? Regarding that, I think we can agree that Harry does at least love Hermione as a friend, and I would further like to disagree for the record that Harry's reaction was not realistic. I'd say it was extremely realistic, and that his reactions were in fact more expressive than some who might remain in shock for some interdeterminate length of time, preventing appropriate focus and in this situation, appropriate defensive response.

DaveyDee, not to divert focus from your question! I just wasn't fast enough with my post. And do not have GoF handy. However perhaps a thorough examination of evidence is in order? From memory, I cannot remember being swayed by anything except the post-Yule Ball scene, which is not conclusive but is suggestive potentially in many directions, simply because we do not receive the full text of the conversation. Hermione IMO seemed to be telling Ron to grow up and own his feelings, i.e. engage in more constructive behaviour than insulting his friends.

Now...speculation: if she's telling Ron to own his feelings, then granted, it would be a bit cruel if she only plans to shoot him down...[I can't believe I said that but I've had a strange few days...]. However, given that Ron humiliated her publicly for going with Krum and obviously started in on her once more in the common room, she may have simply got fed up and responded in kind [hitting below the belt] with a statement that also implies 'grow up', clearly implying he'd been acting like a child. Hermione is as a rule compassionate. However she'd been receiving insults and slander all evening from Ron. For many, the time for compassion, sadly, is not when your blood is up, as they say. Even Hermione can lose her temper if constantly harassed in public. The other evidence [Hermione looks at Fleur, etc.] seemed much less potentially persuasive, as [from memory] Harry was in the picture as well. Perhaps what we need is a fresh review of Heron evidence from GoF?


BTW I'm trying to get one of our 'old' [i.e., from a few mo. back...LOL] threads restored but so far no luck.

Nia: Still trying to perk on a response to your bit on philosophical inputs to the series vis-a-vis the ending. I am clearly favouring a Zen resolution to Zoarastrian dualism, but of course I see other input as well. And I probably agree with your statements generally, as I think we are on the same page philosophically regarding the ultimate struggle...but more on that later...

Perdita, I will review those items [finally] & PM you, but can I ever convince you to post on the 'naturalism' theme? Because I think that was brilliant.

Lastly...
I have a question to anyone out there, particularly those who 'ship' a particular way. Regarding ships, do you...
1) favour certain pairings because of what they bring to the 'ultimate struggle' [in which many are key [the DA, the Order, etc] but which arguably hinges on Harry 'getting it' regarding this mysterious power needed to defeat Voldemort],
2) favour certain pairings because the main character a seems best suited for x, therefore y and z are available and seem best suited for b and c --> given [a=Harry],
3) favour certain pairings because your favourite character is not the main character, and your interests re: pairing lies with your favourite character with either the main character or some other.
?

I'll answer briefly: 1) & 2) apply to me, but how many would choose 2 & 3 or 1 & 3? Or all 3? And why? if I may ask.
Thanks!

Nice posts today there evaluna, FP, Nia and others
Polaris15 in war time you would receive a medal and I truly think that you deserve a medal. Yo Falcon can we get a medal made for Polaris15 Until then take a few :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: for your work. Keep up the great work!!!

Well actually it is necessary if we're going to reconcile JK's remark that the answer is in GoF. Therefore there must be something in GoF which gives positive weight to the idea that Hermione does not like Ron as more than a friend. It doesn't require a prophecy or a prediction - just something from existing canon.

Pre Yule Ball

Establishment of Hermione dislike of Fleur before any Ron/Fleur interaction.

Post Yule Ball
And post ask me first

*Hermione continues to see Krum until the end of the school year.
*Hermione and Krums relationship deepens to the point where Krum asks Hermione to visit him and never has felt this way about a girl before.
*Hermione talks to Krum about Harry a lot
*Krum is suspicious of H/Hr
*Hermione kisses Harry

All established in the text. Cannon. Now lets see,

Well actually it is necessary if we're going to reconcile JK's remark that the answer is in GoF. Therefore there must be something in GoF which gives positive weight to the idea that Hermione does not like Ron as more than a friend. It doesn't require a prophecy or a prediction - just something from existing canon.

Well actually it is necessary if we're going to reconcile JK's remark that the answer is in Gof. Therefore there must be something in Gof which gives positive weight to the idea that Hermione does like Ron as more than a friend. It doesn't require a prophecy or a predicition - just something from exisiting cannon.

Now since the answer to this question posed is in Gof that should mean that we have something quite rock solid and unquestionable. After all JKR sent you looking to that book for proof of Hr/R so that means that JKR must have put something in Gof that proves Hr/R and can do so to everyone beyond a shadow of any doubt. And this places the burden of proof not on H/Hr but on Hr/R shippers.

I have submitted my text. Now how about yours?

Cheers!

Evaluna:

Prongs, can you help me out? I understand your response to Nia, providing the male perspective. Then there is another quote from someone else re: Ginny's importance. And then what I understood as a response. Yours? Or someone else's? Is Ginny the woman to whom you're referring or is this someone else's quote? BTW to whomever this response belongs, it is a very interesting insight. Harry felt violated and contaminated by association with such a pervasive evil and rightly so. A very human response, to blame oneself and thus his reaction

It is my quote, Evaluna and I understand your confusion, I'm female and I picked a male character for my name - go figure. I felt sorry for Harry in that scene (where he is feeling contaminated), but almost cried on Ginny's behalf. She truly had to endure those feelings for almost a school year. I truly was shocked that JKR would introduce that topic in its most vivid, detailed description in one of her books.

I will answer your question, evaluna.
I have a question to anyone out there, particularly those who 'ship' a particular way. Regarding ships, do you...
1) favour certain pairings because of what they bring to the 'ultimate struggle' [in which many are key [the DA, the Order, etc] but which arguably hinges on Harry 'getting it' regarding this mysterious power needed to defeat Voldemort]
I do not very understand the "ultimate struggle part. However, I do not believe romantic love is neccessary to play a role in the struggle. It could very well be forgiving or compassion for everyone include Voldemort. The true is I am waiting for JKR to wow me.
2) favour certain pairings because the main character a seems best suited for x, therefore y and z are available and seem best suited for b and c --> given [a=Harry]
I am also slight confused by your question. I favor H/Hr and I like how H/G could be turn out. I favor H/Hr more because they have a great friendship. I like H/G because it is so undeveloped that it can go anywhere. I hate R/Hr becuase I can not see them constant arguement is good for any closer relationship.
3) favour certain pairings because your favourite character is not the main character, and your interests re: pairing lies with your favourite character with either the main character or some other.
?
I do not ever have favor characters:lol:. None of them I can identify with. I do like Hermione and Ginny(the version 2.0) though. However, I know I would not want either to be my gf if I know them personality(well, may be Ginny. I really do not know much about her yet). Hermione is annoying. She is good to have as a friend, but I can not stand her long. I will go insane.
Harry is definely have save the day thing. He has a brain and do not use it. Ron is definely have some issue about being overshadowed. I would not be suprise if Ron is going to hava another fallout or make another mistake.
The only character I like a lot is McD.But then she is not important for romantic thread.

Originally Posted by Prongs, Sr.,
Ron does help Harry in Ootp, especially during the scene where he first discovers Umbridge's punishment and encourages Harry to talk to McGonagal or Dumbledore. Also, there are a couple of scenes, I believe around OWL time, that Harry is upset that he can't play practice Quidditch with Ron. This type of physical activity is important to Harry and Ron and, I feel, is true to life male-bonding time.

My point was not that Ron does not help, but that he initiates nothing to help Harry’s terrible psychological ordeal. He never even acknowledges that Harry is going through a psychological ordeal.

My question to the guys was is JKR simply being very realistic here and there is some male dynamic going on, or is there a new distance between Harry and Ron? The male thing doesn’t have to do with ‘bonding’, per se as much as it has to do with how much psychological space male friends will share. Sports and such are ‘safe’ topics, ‘feelings of hurt and anxiety and betrayal’ are not, I don’t think. I was told that most males would not attempt to intrude into a friend’s psyche to ‘try and understand him’ because this is not something guys do. ;)

I originally wrote:
I simply cannot understand why Hermione’s importance to Harry has to become a shipping issue sorepoint.

Prongs, Sr.,

The following is a blanket statement, but H/Hrs have a tendency to put Hermione above and beyond all other characters and I find it not believable due to the tone of the books; especially as JKR, herself, as said the Ron and Hermione are sidekicks.

JKR has elevated Hermione. Quite simply Hermione always has an answer and is quite a bit smarter than most of the professors.

The fact that she is placed as Harry’s sidekick and not in some golden inaccessible kingdom somewhere is supremely funny to me since I believe she is JKR’s tongue-in-cheek reference to the female oracle, so often found in traditional heroic tales and she quite simply defies the stereotype. Instead of speaking in lofty words and pear-shaped tones, she is swotty, bossy and sometimes shrill. Instead of being breathtakingly, impossibly beautiful, she has bushy hair and overlarge teeth and walks hunched from carrying too many books. And, instead of treating the hero like a subordinate to whom she condescends to impart her great wisdom, she is his best friend and biggest supporter.

Hermione is the most brilliant young person in the books and is nearly always right. I’m sure you went to school with someone like that. I had a good friend when I was 12 who could intimidate even the most knowledgeable teachers with her brilliance.

Now, please tell me why the presence of a brilliant, caring girl would detract in any way from who Ginny or any of the other characters are. JKR is giving us a landscape of life in her stories. There will always be geniuses among us. Their presence adds to the quality of our collective humanity and just because one is a genius should not mean that whatever qualities and characteristics another character has been given are not also worthy of note.

JKR wrote Hermione the way she did for a reason. Just as I believe she wants us to appreciate her uniqueness when she told us that Harry needs her badly.

Prongs, Sr.,
Ginny did not put Harry in danger and Harry was willing to take the risk himself. She gave him a means to have a last conversation with his godfather, which was essential to Harry's peace of mind. I feel that this last conversation, may not be important in the overall scheme of the books, but it is crucial to help Harry reconcile his confusion over his father's actions.

I think Ginny did not put GINNY in danger. Giving Harry the means to have a last conversation with Sirius put him in danger. But, I too believe that resolving the issue with Sirius about his dad was necessary, so I won't belabor the point with you. But, of course, Ginny did not know exactly what she was facilitating.


Referring to the female guide in classic heroic tales:

Prongs, Sr.,
I don't see the parallel, as Galadriel is married to Celeleborn (I think) and is not a romantic ideal for Frodo.

I was not talking about romance at all. I was speaking of literary ‘types’ or symbols. The female character who is the hero’s oracle of truth and spiritual guide in most traditional heroic tales is generally quite above the hero in status and power and wisdom, and in almost all instances she is impossibly beautiful and incredibly brilliant. Galadriel is married to Celeborn, yes, but I used this as an example of the female guide, because it was an image everyone could relate to seeing as how we are in the middle of the marvelous LOTR Trilogy brought to life on screen. Tolkien stresses the point of Galadriel’s exhalted status. Boromir cannot even stand to look upon her. Yet she reaches out to Frodo. And, in thus doing becomes his spiritual guide and oracle. In the King Arthur tales, it is the Lady of the Lake.

I wrote:

The crux of the question for SHIP discussions is whether or not JKR is writing Hermione as Harry’s ultimate love interest or whether she is a dear friend who is simply serving as his guiding light during these terrible seven years of his life.

Prongs, Sr.,

JKR has stated that she wants them to be truly seventeen and experience sexual feelings, nothing too gritty. According to this interview, it sounds like JKR is writing a romance similar to Harry/Cho in that we will see some twisting on the stomach, etc. She has had lots of opportunities to insert romantic feelings (or beginnings of them) for Hermione and yet, she has not done so. She also includes blushing as a part of those descriptions, and so far, we've seen no blushing on both Harry or Hermione's part, in regards to each other. I don't believe she will change this pattern soon, as she has said she wants them to experience sexual feelings and this is one manner in which she can do that.


What you are describing are the symptoms of physical attraction only. Physical attraction can lead to love but love does not have to necessarily be preceded by the overt symptoms of physical attraction. In fact, these things you have described are incredibly shallow and have often very little to do with real love, which is a connection of minds and souls and an unconditional acceptance of the other despite a full knowledge of faults and failings.

Love at first sight is an incredibly erroneous concept since it takes time to uncover people’s layers and to understand them. Our collective Western societies have idealized love to the point where we don’t even think love is present unless there are bells and whistles and violins and fireworks (if you live in the US :lol: ).

There is, however, a way of loving where there is such a comfort that one person seems as much a part of the other as an arm or a leg. No bells, no whistles, just one day a revelation, an epiphany, a bright, bright lightbulb going on that there is love and this is the ONE. My favorite literary example of this is found in Jane Austen’s Emma.

Prongs, Sr.,

I also feel strongly that Harry's lying pattern to Hermione has to end. I honestly can't see H/Hr happening if this behavior pattern continues.

I think that after OoP, Harry and Hermione’s relationship will enter an entirely new dynamic. Harry knew she was right all the while he was trying to avoid her scrutiny. His collective actions were partially to blame for Sirius’ death. Lying as Harry did was a sign of his immaturity. It was not directly related to Hermione but who he was during OoP. We shall see in Book Six, if he can face her and allow her assistance in truly comprehending that prophesy.

As for Ginny, I hope JKR will write a truly satisfactory development of this character since she is so dearly beloved on the boards.

Nice debating with you,
Cheers!
Nia


Addenda:
Evaluna--
Lastly...
I have a question to anyone out there, particularly those who 'ship' a particular way. Regarding ships, do you...
1) favour certain pairings because of what they bring to the 'ultimate struggle' [in which many are key [the DA, the Order, etc] but which arguably hinges on Harry 'getting it' regarding this mysterious power needed to defeat Voldemort],
2) favour certain pairings because the main character a seems best suited for x, therefore y and z are available and seem best suited for b and c --> given [a=Harry],
3) favour certain pairings because your favourite character is not the main character, and your interests re: pairing lies with your favourite character with either the main character or some other.
?

I'll answer briefly: 1) & 2) apply to me, but how many would choose 2 & 3 or 1 & 3? Or all 3? And why? if I may ask.
Thanks!

1 and 2 also apply to me! :D

Daveydee,
I am preparing a response.
Cheerio,
Nia

Hawk, brilliant post! I myself see much more potential 3-way tension between Harry, Hermione, and Krum [re: any love relationships] as well but am interested in the Heron response to your post.

Haycheng: LOL! and thanks for your response. Harbouring a secret yen for Prof. McG.? Just kidding!


And is anyone going to give Nia that male perspective re: Ron and Harry?
Sorry Nia, I can't help on this one ;). From any side -- hopefully all round. Wish Ecthelion were here to repost on Ron...

Here's the ref:
Originally Posted by Fairydust:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who says Hermione's not important? Hermione's important. But she's not the most important. Many a times in shipping posts I've read it states that Hermione and Harry have this celestial friendship almost. That they're so high above everyone else and that Harry's and her's relationship is the most important. I and I'm sure a few others, would disagree. Hermione's importatnt to Harry, she's one of his best friends, but their are others that mean a lot to him, too. Ron, the other Weasley's, Dumbledore, Hagrid. Saying that Hermione is the most important out of the bunch is just wrong in my opinion.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nia:
Ron deeply cares for Harry as does Sirius and Hagrid and Dumbledore, but Ron is now in the process of becoming his own person. Although he is unfailingly supportive, he initiates nothing to help Harry’s terrible psychological ordeal in OoP. He never challenges Harry to look at things from other perspectives or to seek out the truth of things. Ron simply leaves him to his own decisions. This could be a male thing, as I was told that men don’t typically insinuate themselves into their friend’s personal lives. I'd appreciate a male perspective on this.

EDIT: Nia, beautiful post. I agree very much with this:
Referring to the female guide in classic heroic tales:
Prongs, Sr.,
Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see the parallel, as Galadriel is married to Celeleborn (I think) and is not a romantic ideal for Frodo.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was not talking about romance at all. I was speaking of literary ‘types’ or symbols. The female character who is the hero’s oracle of truth and spiritual guide in most traditional heroic tales is generally quite above the hero in status and power and wisdom, and in almost all instances she is impossibly beautiful and incredibly brilliant. Galadriel is married to Celeborn, yes, but I used this as an example of the female guide, because it was an image everyone could relate to seeing as how we are in the middle of the marvelous LOTR Trilogy brought to life on screen. Tolkien stresses the point of Galadriel’s exhalted status. Boromir cannot even stand to look upon her. Yet she reaches out to Frodo. And, in thus doing becomes his spiritual guide and oracle. In the King Arthur tales, it is the Lady of the Lake.

Though interestingly, I think the role of Oracle fits Luna, as well, and also somewhat in tongue-in-cheek manner. Luna is the archetypal wise fool, more wise than fool, but certainly no Galadriel in dress and manner ;) Nonetheless, she is privy to a different venue of received wisdom and knowledge, that of faith and of the esoteric and intuitive mysteries of life. Perhaps both Luna and Hermione could be viewed as fulfilling aspects of the Oracle archetype. What do you and others think on this?

And on your ref below, a beautiful and true description of love between souls, or, the highest form of 'Platonic' love, or, a true unconditional love....
Nia
In fact, these things you have described are incredibly shallow and have often very little to do with real love, which is a connection of minds and souls and an unconditional acceptance of the other despite a full knowledge of faults and failings.

Love at first sight is an incredibly erroneous concept since it takes time to uncover people’s layers and to understand them. Our collective Western societies have idealized love to the point where we don’t even think love is present unless there are bells and whistles and violins and fireworks (if you live in the US ).

There is, however, a way of loving where there is such a comfort that one person seems as much a part of the other as an arm or a leg. No bells, no whistles, just one day a revelation, an epiphany, a bright, bright lightbulb going on that there is love and this is the ONE. My favorite literary example of this is found in Jane Austen’s Emma.

I would add only one thing. Believe it or not, all ye doubters, this sort of love can exist between any two persons, so Haycheng, you are not wrong, technically, and further we are not in disagreement if we include unconditional love as being requisite in some form to Harry overcoming darkness/evil/himself/Voldemort. The only difference is that Harry and Hermione [etc] are potentially available to one another romantically, as far as we know, whereas not everyone who loves another unconditionally is even in that context. Nonetheless, unconditional love is its own reward, absolutely. But what makes it special to H/Hr folks is the very aspect of unconditional love and the depth of the connection between these two characters [in our opinion]. I daresay if this existed between any other two characters, we'd give them our backing as well. Speaking for myself, for certain.


Cheers!

This is the point she did first encourage Harry to do something wrong. Its not her plane, she didn't plane anything, she didn't help Harry and stay guardian. All what she did is to tell Harry "He can do it".
Its like I wish a new porsche tell this my friend and he runs to his brothers who get somehow a porsche. Now I have the porsche which isn't really legal and his brothers did it. I can come into jail and they can but not my friend. He is complet inocent.
Thats the very different to Hermione. She was involved and as they caught her they caught Harry, too. Both she who did plane it and he who did it are both in troubles. But by Ginny isn't like that she don't risk anything. Off course can she offer her surport its the easiest thing to do without to get involved.
She don't need to worry because she isn't at this point in any danger.

First encourage someone to do something wrong and than let him do it alone.

One problem in here. Harry never planned on him going to Umbridge's office he says that Umbridge is policing the fires and reading the mail. So his normal way of comunicating is not him going to Sirius but by mail and/or Sirius coming thru the fire. She isn't encouraging because he's actually not planning on doing something wrong.

I remember. She saw Ron at the breakfast table, and notices that he's jealous. Did she have a simple chat, or a deep heart to heart? We don't know. Ron's jealousy is very overt, so it wouldn't take much preception to see it. From the timing, it looks like she came directly to Harry after she found out that Ron is angry at Harry.

When did Hermione said that she notice that Ron was jealous? As far as I can remember she explained of why he is jealous. We only know that she saw him at breakfast. He must have talk to him. You said that Hermione didn't know that Ron and Harry had a fight. So if by when she reaches Harry she knows that they did had a fight and she knows the causes and what happend. How else did she knew? She must have talk to Ron then fully. Because there was no one else there. She knows the reason of why she is, she knows why Ron is angry.

There is no need to apologize. She sympathizes with Ron, but does she truly understand his reasoning? She obviously disagrees with Ron, and to achieve some kind of understanding, their has to be at least a common ground. For example, you don't see H/Hr.

It appears to me that she does! She never took sides on the fight. She kept in the middle. To me she understands Ron not Harry. Even when she doesn't take sides.

How can you possibly understand our POV when you don't agree with it? Especially since you wasted many posts in saying that you don't see any romance, but just friendship.

I can understand your point of view because I analize it, read it and see what is that you are trying to say. The fact that I don't agree with it, it's an entirely different thing. I see a friendship no more than that. You see a friendship with posibilities of Romance. My point of view is different than yours, but that doesn't mean that I can't see your point of view.

Don't generalize H/Hr shippers. If you're talking about me, then let me give you my personal opinion. Ron and Hermione *are* friends. They are very close friends. No one is trying to say otherwise, but IMO, they're not as close as Harry and Hermione because Harry and Hermione have more understanding.

I'm generalizing because I see this very frequently. It's not just you. I'm talking in general for what's my perception. It feels sometime that the R/Hr friendship moments are always trying to be discounted as something else. Never is about Ron and Hermione's friendship. The moment something is found it's discounted at something else.

Again, there is no need to ask for forgiveness. IMO, it is very relevant. Through this subtle details, JKR is showing how Hermione values her friendship with both boys. When Harry and Ron's friendship is on the verge of breaking apart, Hermione chose to spend more time with Harry.

Ok.

But I see that she spends her time almost equally. She goes from one to the other. She knows what's going with Ron. I just don't feel that she prefers Harry more.

Proof? Since when did Ron become Mr. Popular? The *entire* school knows who Harry Potter is; actually the entire wizarding WORLD knows who Harry potter is. To say that Harry doesn't have as many friends as Ron is simply ludicrous. Harry could have hung out with Dean and Seamus or Fred and George. Clearly, no one else knew about their broken friendship besides the trio.

Polaris Ron is a Weasley! He had 5 other brothers in that school everyone knows the Weasley's. Even Dumbledore says how popular the Weasley's are. Malfoy's recognizes him without having met him. If I'm not mistaken Ron is shown with Dean, Seamus, Lee, Fred & George and I think Neville. Harry may be the boy who lived but none of those people hang out with him. For Harry making friends is harder than for Ron.

Hermione is not glued or punished. As you've stated before, she tries to repair their friendship. In times of crisis, how can Hermione cheerfully act oblivious to her stubborn best friends' floundering friendship?

Because she is not glued to them. Hermione needs to be shown outside of Ron and Harry.

Now Hermione is a normal teenager? Wasn't it you who stated early that Hermione acts like Harry's mother? So now she is just a normal teenager like Ginny? Whoa, there's a big change, or maybe just a simple contridiction. Besides, can you post JKR's quote? I don't believe I've read it.

To classify Hermione as an old soul doesn't click for me. Hermione may act like Harry mother sometimes but that has more to do with her own style of working and her excesive control manners.


Again, what's with the apologies. There is no need to say sorry when you're stating your opinion, unless of course, you're not sincere...Anyway, back to the point. IMO, JKR didn't miss an opportunity to create H/Hr romance. The fact that she *chose* to have Hermione believe in Harry when no one else did foreshadows future romances. It would be very odd if Harry and Hermione suddenly snogs in the middle of the library. I believe that through this simple incident, JKR shows Hermione's complete understanding of Harry's character.

Got it!
Not for me. From where I view this. JKR choosed Hermione to understand Ron's feelings not Harry's. In many ways Harry didn't need someone that tell him what to do, he needed someone that listen to him. That's what Sirius did. Harry is very prone to feeling depress in many ways what Harry needed was emotional support rather than technical support. In many ways I feel Hermione fails at that. The emotional part of Harry.

Ron and Hermione aren't the same people. Ron is the best male friend. Hermione, IMO, is more like a future girlfriend.

As usual, I disagree. I feel like both Ron and Hermione are there to support Harry.

What lines? That Hermione isn't Ron? Well she isn't; doesn't mean that Harry doesn't like Hermione. Harry misses Ron because Ron is ignoring him and breaking their friendship. Under normal circumstances, I doubt that Harry would miss Ron everytime he hangs out with Hermione.

Ron and Harry are inseparable. IMO in there Harry clearly stated his discomfort on Hermione's modus operandi. It simply doesn't appeal to him.

Yes, there are many different ways to write it. JKR could've made Hermione oblivious to the tension; she could've made Hermione hang out with Ron; or "better yet", she could've just let Ginny approach Harry with a stack of toast saying that she understands that he doesn't want to face everyone, and believes him when he says that he didn't put his name in the GoF when no one else did.

No never let Ginny get close in book 4! :no: Besides Ginny is on a year down. That happend overnight not even Hermione knew!


They're friends in OotP, but where does it imply that Hermione thinks of Ginny as a friend rather than Ron's sister?

This is an example of how unless it's Harry and Hermione everyone else is friends, sister, relative or simply aquaintance of someone else. The only real friendship is the one Harry and Hermione have.

Oh please. Grow up GillyAnn

Oh I wish I could a few more inches! But I'm over 21 I think I'm done. :shrug:

Hermione stays with Ginny for a week during the QWC. We have not seen any interaction between them that suggests close friendship. They don't hate each other, but they certainly don't seem to be close friends in the first four books. I believe that Hermione and Ginny's friendship really developed during the month Hermione stayed in Grimmauld's place, but then again, that had been off text.

Didn't Hermione confided in Ginny her date to the Yule Ball? What kind of person is Hermione that confides something to someone she is not friends with? :scared:

If JKR really decides to copy another author's plot precisely as it is, then yes, that is copying, but I'm hoping that JKR is more original than that.

Thank you!

So authors copy other author's plots??? Then, why bother reading different books!? Clearly, from what you've implied, there is simply no need to read another book since these authors all 'copy' one another anyway.

Everything has been done already! It's the style of writting, the entretainment, etc. You read for the fun of it.

Prongs, Sr. - Eva Luna

Regardless of our shipping views, I agree with you on this. Ginny was emotionally/verbally abused and violated and I would be sorely upset if she doesn't get her slice of personal retribution. As a woman, I found the scene where Harry is feeling unclean, dirty and contaminated extremely disturbing and was somewhat surprised that JKR would write this so vividly and blatantly.


This has been discoussed in other places. Obviously forum rules will forbid us to talk about this in here. But the whole chamber is mirror of someone lossing trust on someone she thought it was her friend.

Gily Ann

Edit: and yes I do look forward to revenge!

Obviously R/Hr see that answer as being the Yule Ball scene culminating in Hermione's invitation to Ron to ask her next time there's a ball.

Therefore R/Hr are able to answer the question with positive evidence. Regardless of whether there is universal agreement it is evidence of a positive nature.

The ultimate problem with this proof is that it is incomplete. You cannot prove what lead up to Hermione's response therefore you cannot establish the statement from Ron created this response. Furthur more one cannot even claim that this is positive proof for if Ron has admitted to liking Hermione then I have already posted what happens after the Yule Ball. And lets not forget Ron's actions if his feelings are brought to the surface.

So
1) Your evidence is incomplete.
2) Your evidence is not postive, in fact Hermione's and Ron's actions post this statement create true and utter damage to your ship.

Cheers!

Wow, great posts :clap: :clap: :clap:
Prongs: I think the trailer will also be online on Monday for download.

I'm generalizing because I see this very frequently. It's not just you. I'm talking in general for what's my perception. It feels sometime that the R/Hr friendship moments are always trying to be discounted as something else. Never is about Ron and Hermione's friendship. The moment something is found it's discounted at something else.

With all due respect GilyAnn, this works both ways. It is not even close to a rare thing to have Harry and Hermione moments discounted as something else, regardless of whether it is a romantic or a friendship moment. How many times is it attempted to have a picture of Harry finding one the closest people in the world to him as being just plain annoying? Very much so. However, we try not to refer to all of the R/Hr shippers as doing this because it is not all who do this. Please show the same in return to us. We're not a hive mentality, we all have our own ideas.

Hawk: I am currently ROTFLMAO at that sig! Love it! :lol:

Nice posts evaluna and Nia!

Perdita, I will review those items [finally] & PM you, but can I ever convince you to post on the 'naturalism' theme? Because I think that was brilliant.

Let me try evaluna. Perdy, after you read this post would you please post the 'naturalism' theme. Thank you.

DumbledoretheWise posted these pages as proof of H/G. Lets take a look, (all text comes from OotP American Version in my responses, the original text from the books is bolded, all emphasis JKR)

DumbledoretheWise posted
Page 74, American Edition, "Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place."

Interesting.

Harry: Don’t they think I’d rather it’d never—
“We know Harry,” said Ginny earnestly.
But I find slightly above this just as interesting
”I don’t want anyone to worship—“ Harry began hotly.
“I know you don’t” said Hermione quickly, looking frightened. “I know, Harry.”

Neat. The same word is given emphasis in both Ginny and Hermione’s response to Harry. Know. But look at what follows each word
Ginny: We know
Hermione: I know
Ginny: The Trio/group knows. Part of the group. Group moment.
Hermione: I know. Hermione knows. Individual. Hermione understands. H/Hr moment.
Isn’t that a daisy!!!!
Cheers!

Eva, sorry I didn't see your request up there. I'll try and post it soon. But i would like to see your feedback first, so that I could make it as tight as possible.

Hawk...that is one heck of a sig. :tu:

Everyone, great posts! I'm really enjoying life as a lurker. Cheers and :clap: for all of you.

Support:
Your (Grace Granger) definition:
If you give someone moral support, you encourage them and show that you approve of what they are doing, rather than giving them practical help.

GilyAnn
Problem is that Harry is not doing anything because he thinks that he can't talk to Sirius. So by your definition. Ginny is telling Harry not to do anything. She's is actually aproving that Harry is not doing anything to talk to Sirius.

I think you've misunderstood. Harry is going to do something. Okay, Ginny didn't tell Harry to do anything, but she gave him the means to do something. She went up to Fred and George who then went to Harry.

I'm not talking about Ginny's approval of "Harry not doing anything to talk to Sirius." I'm talking about Ginny's approval of Harry entering Umbridge's office knowing very well that Umbridge is "policing the fires and reading all our mails." She knew that Harry wanted to use Umbridge's office and for him to do so, she went to Fred and George so they can help out.

Grace Granger:
Yes Ginny does encourage Harry, but she encourages him to do something wrong.

Ginnyann
The plan on Umbridge's office came AFTER they talked not before. Ginny didn't planned that there. According to the H/Hr she didn't planned that, the twins did. So Ginny couldn't haven given her support on something that had not happend.

I don't think I claimed once in my post that Ginny helped plan anything. But since you've brought it up a multitude of times in your post, I might as well speak of it: Ginny did not PLAN anything.

It doesn't matter if Harry, Fred and George talked about the plan AFTER. Ginny knew that Harry needed to talk to Sirius. And, logically, the only means to do so is by using the fires or owls. He could get into trouble either way because he's breaking the rules. So she went to Fred and George and told them that Harry needs help speaking to Sirius. She gave her support. She didn't help plan, but she got the ball rolling.

Grace Granger
Ginny approves of Harry's plans to enter Umbridge's office, (which btw he knows is wrong since this scene), but again she doesn't consider at all that what he is planning is wrong. She's skirting the problem. This is where the definition moral comes in

GilyAnn
Huge problem here. Harry never planned that. According to H/Hr shippers neither did Ginny. That's the twins idea. So she is not aproving of anything in here. Mostly because that happens after H/G talk.

No Harry planned. If not he wouldn't have mentioned anything about the fires and owls. He was already thinking about it. Fred and George just supplied him with diversion. About Ginny and her approving: read my new post above.



Again problem is that H/Hr shippers claim that Ginny never planned that. Like you said she just passes the info to Fred and George. According to the H/Hr is them who planned this not Ginny or Harry. So she's not actually encouraging Harry to do something wrong. She just went to the twins, according to H/Hr's.

She did. She was the mediator. She didn't plan anything. She supported the information that was being passed. She supported Harry's breaking rules. She supported Fred and George's ruckus. This is by no way moral support. She does not give Harry the right and wrong reasons for what could happen. She does not think about the consequences.


So according to all of this definitions by you. Ginny simply listens to Harry gives and supports his idea of not talking to Sirius.

No, that's according to your misunderstanding of my understanding of the definitions for moral support and moral. Ginny listens to Harry, gives and supports his idea to break the rules in order to talk to Sirius.

EDIT: Btw, where did you get your definition from?

What? I don't understand your point here.

It's very simple. Harry was worried at Hermione's nagging, not because she was nagging, but because he knew that Hermione is right and that he is not.

Problem is that Harry is not doing anything because he thinks that he can't talk to Sirius. So by your definition. Ginny is telling Harry not to do anything. She's is actually aproving that Harry is not doing anything to talk to Sirius.

No, Harry isn't doing anything, not yet. But, Ginny is going to help him find out about a plan from her brothers. She is helping Harry to accomplish something that he should not even attempt. It's right there in the book.

When H/Hr shippers say things to imply that Ginny isn't doing "anything," you have to remember the context in which we make that assertion: Ginny does not challenge Harry's ideas to compell him to do what is right, but she submits to his ideas of doing what could be very harmful to himself.

The plan on Umbridge's office came AFTER they talked not before. Ginny didn't planned that there. According to the H/Hr she didn't planned that, the twins did. So Ginny couldn't haven given her support on something that had not happend.

Grace Granger never said that Ginny planned anything. Again, try to keep the arguments in line. What Grace Granger is arguing is different from the line of argument that is taking place amongst the other H/Hr shippers.

So according to all of this definitions by you. Ginny simply listens to Harry gives and supports his idea of not talking to Sirius.

Of not talking to Sirius?

'Well,' said Ginny slowly, helping herself to a bit of egg, too, 'if you really want to talk to Sirius, I expect we could think of a way to do it.'

Ginny does not consider this a mission for George and Fred only. She considers it her mission as well, as you can see by the way she uses the word "we," not "they." Ginny takes responsibility for what she thinks and what she does. The text shows that plain and clear.

Lastly...
I have a question to anyone out there, particularly those who 'ship' a particular way. Regarding ships, do you...
1) favour certain pairings because of what they bring to the 'ultimate struggle' [in which many are key [the DA, the Order, etc] but which arguably hinges on Harry 'getting it' regarding this mysterious power needed to defeat Voldemort],
2) favour certain pairings because the main character a seems best suited for x, therefore y and z are available and seem best suited for b and c --> given [a=Harry],
3) favour certain pairings because your favourite character is not the main character, and your interests re: pairing lies with your favourite character with either the main character or some other.
?

I'll answer briefly: 1) & 2) apply to me, but how many would choose 2 & 3 or 1 & 3? Or all 3? And why? if I may ask.
Thanks!
My answer would be number (4), which seems to be a strange, yet obvious omission from your list. So here it is:

4) have no favour towards any particular pairing; you merely base your arguments on the evidence and themes which appear in the books.

Hawk

*Hermione continues to see Krum until the end of the school year.
*Hermione and Krums relationship deepens to the point where Krum asks Hermione to visit him and never has felt this way about a girl before.
*Hermione talks to Krum about Harry a lot
*Krum is suspicious of H/Hr
*Hermione kisses Harry
None of those points address the question (the answer to which, according to JK is in GoF) of whether Hermione likes Ron as more than a friend. Not only are they not positive points that would give rise to the verdict that 'no she does not', they are not even negative points to counter a possible 'yes she does', since 4 of the 5 relate to Hermione & Krum and the other relates to Hermione and Harry.

Examples of what might reasonably be construed as positive evidence:

If the verdict is yes:
Hermione says to Ron 'next time there's a ball, ask me first and not as a last resort'. Many will (and do) argue the interpretation, but it is at least suggestive of the idea that yes she does like him as more than a friend.

If the verdict is no:
Hermione says to Ron 'next time there's a ball, don't even think about asking me'. Many might argue that interpretation (eg said out of anger, might change her mind, only refers to a ball etc..) but it is at least suggestive of the idea that Hermione doesn't like Ron as more than a friend.

Of course the second is an imaginary scenario, I use it merely to make a comparison between what is evidence of positive nature, which might answer the question, and evidence of a negative nature, which doesn't address the question.

None of those points address the question (the answer to which, according to JK is in GoF) of whether Hermione likes Ron as more than a friend. Not only are they not positive points that would give rise to the verdict that 'no she does not', they are not even negative points to counter a possible 'yes she does', since 4 of the 5 relate to Hermione & Krum and the other relates to Hermione and Harry.

However they do address your question as they show the characters in questions actions after your establishment of a romantic nature. Both of them. After your positive evidence we see not only the actions that I have ascribed to Hermione but Ron still flirting with Fleur and then with Padma. Therefore your chain of reasoning is broken almost as soon as it began. Which is why you work to try and re-establish the link with Ron's jealousy in OotP. For only by doing so can you return to your positive evidence and create your chain of reasoning. This often leads us to the shifting of Hermione's thoughts going from Harry to Krum to Ron that dominates most of your theories but on closer examination holds no weight when compared with the text and are unnecessarily complicated. This in turn proves that what was began with was the ending Hr/R and the rest was formed around it.

Examples of what might reasonably be construed as positive evidence:

If the verdict is yes:
Hermione says to Ron 'next time there's a ball, ask me first and not as a last resort'. Many will (and do) argue the interpretation, but it is at least suggestive of the idea that yes she does like him as more than a friend.

If the verdict is no:
Hermione says to Ron 'next time there's a ball, don't even think about asking me'. Many might argue that interpretation (eg said out of anger, might change her mind, only refers to a ball etc..) but it is at least suggestive of the idea that Hermione doesn't like Ron as more than a friend.

Now if one looks at your answer to number 2 we can say that Hermione actions post yule ball are more than enough to cast reasonable doubt on your claims in your positive verdict. Not to mention the fact that this would prove that Hermione is completely aware of Ron's feelings for her and does not return them, further damaging your evidence.

Now your verdict is based on a parital conversation (a great indicator of a red herring to begin with) your witness (Harry) was distracted to begin with then came in at the very end, that your evidence is incomplete and therefore is not concrete.

Now returning to the quote we once again re-establish the fact that the answer lies in Gof. This once again places the burden of proof solely with the Heron, not the Harmony. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt to say the least. But your proof is both subject to interpetation and is questionable as to it accuracy and reliabilty.

If we were to present this to a jury of truly impartial people I feel that we could safely return with either a hung jury or a answer of NO.

Cheers!

Great post evaluna, Grace, Polaris (my hero) and Hawk :clap:

Bet: I really like your sig Hawk and Grace. Hopefully there is still a exemplare for me. I die for to read HP and Hero sandwich

I just wanted to add something about Hermiones doing in the fight with Harry. You know in PS/SS did stay such things already. I really think that PS/SS and OotP somehow show a path which is interesting.

Dumbledore said it the best:
It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends

Hermione does the same like Neville in PS/SS only she has a point this time. By the way Harry didn't dislike Neville after this. So we can rules out any split between Harry and Hermione.

I think you've misunderstood. Harry is going to do something. Okay, Ginny didn't tell Harry to do anything, but she gave him the means to do something. She went up to Fred and George who then went to Harry.

I'm not talking about Ginny's approval of "Harry not doing anything to talk to Sirius." I'm talking about Ginny's approval of Harry entering Umbridge's office knowing very well that Umbridge is "policing the fires and reading all our mails." She knew that Harry wanted to use Umbridge's office and for him to do so, she went to Fred and George so they can help out.

No Harry isn't going to do anything. Because he says that he knows that he can't talk to Sirius. Again Harry never said that he was going to go into Umbridge's office to talk Sirius. That was the twins idea. Remember that Umbridge was watching all the fires. She had her hand in the Griffindor tower fire. At no point did Harry said I'm breaking in Umbridge's office to talk to Sirius. The only way he knows how to talk to Sirius is send him a letter and Sirius telling him when he can meet him. That's their normal way of comunicating.

I don't think I claimed once in my post that Ginny helped plan anything. But since you've brought it up a multitude of times in your post, I might as well speak of it: Ginny did not PLAN anything.

It doesn't matter if Harry, Fred and George talked about the plan AFTER. Ginny knew that Harry needed to talk to Sirius. And, logically, the only means to do so is by using the fires or owls. He could get into trouble either way because he's breaking the rules. So she went to Fred and George and told them that Harry needs help speaking to Sirius. She gave her support. She didn't help plan, but she got the ball rolling.

Originally by Grace Granger:
Ginny is 14 years old. She should know by now that breaking and entering is wrong. She maybe thinking that helping Harry out is a good thing, but has she thought about the repercussion to his actions?

No the only way of comunicating isn't only by fires or Owls. They could have met also in Hogsmade. And according to you she didn't plan anything so she couldn't have gotten the ball rolling because that would be taking part of planning.

No Harry planned. If not he wouldn't have mentioned anything about the fires and owls. He was already thinking about it. Fred and George just supplied him with diversion. About Ginny and her approving: read my new post above.

When did Harry said he had though of using the Owls or the fires? He said that Umbridge's is using the Fires and the Owls which were the two methods that they most commonly use.

She did. She was the mediator. She didn't plan anything. She supported the information that was being passed. She supported Harry's breaking rules. She supported Fred and George's ruckus. This is by no way moral support. She does not give Harry the right and wrong reasons for what could happen. She does not think about the consequences.

A mediator is part of the plan. According to you Ginny didn't plan anything so she isn't that either. At this point Ginny is still supporting Harry's decisission not to do anything.


No, that's according to your misunderstanding of my understanding of the definitions for moral support and moral. Ginny listens to Harry, gives and supports his idea to break the rules in order to talk to Sirius.

The definitions that you used were quite clear. From your definition Ginny supports that Harry does nothing, she didn't plan anythying or did anything. My view of that scene is different and very clear.

EDIT: Btw, where did you get your definition from?

www.dictionary.com The definition that I posted was the one that suited the general and common idea of Moral Support and one that included the clear definition of what is the concept of it. But when I posted I used your definition not mine.

Perdita:
It's very simple. Harry was worried at Hermione's nagging, not because she was nagging, but because he knew that Hermione is right and that he is not.

This doesn't click me. Harry was annoyed with her nagging that was quite clear. Whether she was right or wrong it was irrelevant.


No, Harry isn't doing anything, not yet. But, Ginny is going to help him find out about a plan from her brothers. She is helping Harry to accomplish something that he should not even attempt. It's right there in the book.

When H/Hr shippers say things to imply that Ginny isn't doing "anything," you have to remember the context in which we make that assertion: Ginny does not challenge Harry's ideas to compell him to do what is right, but she submits to his ideas of doing what could be very harmful to himself.

Again by the definitions Ginny is not helping Harry do anything and she is supporting that he doesn't talk to Sirius. Moral support does not require for you to approve or question or do anything. Moral support, being understanding and giving hope to someone is simply sitting down listening to them even though quite possibly you can't do anything for them. Is supporting their emotional side.

Grace Granger never said that Ginny planned anything. Again, try to keep the arguments in line. What Grace Granger is arguing is different from the line of argument that is taking place amongst the other H/Hr shippers.

Originally by Grace Granger:
Ginny is 14 years old. She should know by now that breaking and entering is wrong. She maybe thinking that helping Harry out is a good thing, but has she thought about the repercussion to his actions?

Originally by Grace Granger:
Ginny did not PLAN anything.
~~~~~~

Of not talking to Sirius?

'Well,' said Ginny slowly, helping herself to a bit of egg, too, 'if you really want to talk to Sirius, I expect we could think of a way to do it.'

Ginny does not consider this a mission for George and Fred only. She considers it her mission as well, as you can see by the way she uses the word "we," not "they." Ginny takes responsibility for what she thinks and what she does. The text shows that plain and clear.

Yeah but the parameters posted by Grace say that she was supporting his idea of not doing anything. I'm going with your rules. My idea of that scene and what Ginny did is quite diffferent and extremelly clear from any of this.

With all due respect GilyAnn, this works both ways. It is not even close to a rare thing to have Harry and Hermione moments discounted as something else, regardless of whether it is a romantic or a friendship moment. How many times is it attempted to have a picture of Harry finding one the closest people in the world to him as being just plain annoying? Very much so. However, we try not to refer to all of the R/Hr shippers as doing this because it is not all who do this. Please show the same in return to us. We're not a hive mentality, we all have our own ideas.

Problem is that everything that H/Hr do is consider romantic. It's not me who writes that Harry is annoyed with Hermione is JKR. He clearly sats that several times in book 5.

So we can rules out any split between Harry and Hermione.

I wouldn't be so sure.

Gily Ann

Daveydee
My answer would be number (4), which seems to be a strange, yet obvious omission from your list. So here it is:

4) have no favour towards any particular pairing; you merely base your arguments on the evidence and themes which appear in the books.


Yes, you're right. I was assuming this is implicitly where we all started, before we each began to try to interpret the evidence and the themes. I didn't have any inclination toward anything prior to OoP, only an inclination against R/Hr, as I saw them presented and interacting in GoF. But the rest has followed IMO from exactly what you reference in your item 4), involving what I take to be the main themes, as well as MO on the presentation of the main character and his perspective.

So, is your answer item 4) then? And if so why? Particularly your take on how your pairings [from evidence, in your opinion] affect and are related to theme. Is it the one where Harry dies for the love of Ron and Hermione? *sigh* It's alright, I'd still like to hear it, whatever it may be...
Cheers!

Something what I never did recognise and the reason probably that I didn't look out for Ginny. What a shame because there is an interesting clue in this practiculary scene. Its christmas.

I tell you what Harry did get at christmas:

Harry sorted through his present and found one with Hermione's handwritting on it. Its surprising the first gift Harry get to hands is Hermione's. Is it just me or dos this sounds strange? She had given him, too, a book that resembled a diary expect every time he opened a page it said aloud things like: "Do it today or later you'll pay!"
Sirius and Lupin had given Harry a set of excellent books entitled "Practical Defensive Magic and its Use Against the Dark Arts", which had superb, moving colour illustrations of all the counter-jinxes and hexes it described...
Hagrid had sent a furry brown wallet that had...
Tonks's present was a small model of a firebolt...
Ron had given himan enormous box....
Mr and Mrs Weasley the usual hand-knitted jumper..
Dobby a truly dreadful painting...

Well this is it. Now my question. What did Harry get from Ginny? Ummmm
This look as if Harry didn't get anything from Ginny. So why? If she still likes him. I mean a christmas present could have been anything just that we know there is something but its not there.

My theory is that onlythe one are mentioned who are close enough to Harry in that case Ginny isn't in this group. Why let her out? Because she isn't important? Maybe someone can help me out I'm confused. Nah not really because this is kinda funny after we learned how incredible important Ginny is and practiculary can replace Hermione. Just wondering.

Yes it is interesting that Hermione's gift was first. As if he sought that one out. Probably he was a little disappointed...but then again, he did feel a need to improve his study habits so as not to disappoint her. Notice that Tonks is mentioned, not Ginny...hadn't someone mentioned her earlier as a possibility with regard to Harry? I'd have to agree that IMO Tonks probably has a better shot than Ginny. LOL.

Yes, you're right. I was assuming this is implicitly where we all started, before we each began to try to interpret the evidence and the themes. I didn't have any inclination toward anything prior to OoP, only an inclination against R/Hr, as I saw them presented and interacting in GoF. But the rest has followed IMO from exactly what you reference in your item 4), involving what I take to be the main themes, as well as MO on the presentation of the main character and his perspective.

So, is your answer item 4) then? And if so why? Particularly your take on how your pairings [from evidence, in your opinion] affect and are related to theme. Is it the one where Harry dies for the love of Ron and Hermione? *sigh* It's alright, I'd still like to hear it, whatever it may be...
Cheers!

I'm not sure where the idea of Harry dying for the love of Ron and Hermione came from. I don't recall ever having suggested that. However.

For me it really is just that number 4. I have no real strong urge to see Ron and Hermione together and it would not bother me in the least if JK decided not to follow that route. Likewise for any other pairing. Though inevitably in the course of our debates it is natural for one to assume a mildly dogmatic stance, but that's the nature of informed debate.

I do really like your ideas, evaluna and those of Nia, which are very similar in nature. But as I think I suggested before, those ideas begin with the conceptualised conclusion and work back towards the search for hard evidence, which you have to admit in the case of H/Hr is pretty hard to come by. The deepening of a friendship over 5 years is a natural process, and I see no reason to interpret that as romantic feelings, latent or otherwise. For goodness sake, Harry and Ron's friendship has deepened over the 5 years (we would be concerned if it hadn't), but not too many people are suggesting that that is indicative of an impending explosion of passion.

No. I feel that the starting point should be the raw materials, i.e. the positive evidence. From that we can then ascertain if a theme or themes is /are developing and can ultimately determine the conceptual message JK is trying to convey. I did once feel that the romantic sub-plot would be an aside to the main plot, but having considered further (and in no small part as a result of these debates) I no longer believe that to be the case. I say sub-plot. That is a great mistake. We should be talking about sub-plots, plural.

I see no inherent contradiction in depicting a R/Hr pairing together with a meaningful H/? pairing to achieve the sort of conclusion that we both wish to see. Simply, it doesn't need to be Hermione. You are aware of my previous post concerning Luna; you will also be aware of my earlier post which outlines how I see R/Hr as mirroring the other themes of the series - unity, reconcliation and tolerance. Those two posts take care of both R/Hr and H/?.

So really, evaluna, for me it really is just evidence. And the more I see the themes developing the more relevant and appropriate that evidence becomes. That's not to say I'm not a big thinker. But my view is that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - it's a duck.

Daveydee
I'm not sure where the idea of Harry dying for the love of Ron and Hermione came from. I don't recall ever having suggested that. However.

LOL. Good! Probably I'm thinking on the 'through the veil' ending for Harry mentioned by someone. Apologies if it wasn't you.

Good answer, though. Can't say I disagree with much, except your preference for R/Hr [mild and IYO evident as it may be :lol:]. I also realise that Luna's character has potential, in part due to your posts and also much from noddwyd's esoteric theory. I still have my preferences, of course, but they are now broader in scope [as you say, as a result of these debates!]. In the main I agree that if Harry is to be paired with someone, they must match his level of depth and maturity. And of course, for me, I want to see a deep and abiding love between two souls, an unconditional love, for Harry. A rock, a beacon for him through the storms and the darkness. The rest is frosting on the cake, as they say [hate cake, BTW ;)].
Cheers!

LOL. Good! Probably I'm thinking on the 'through the veil' ending for Harry mentioned by someone. Apologies if it wasn't you.
It was I who posted the 'through the veil' ending for Harry (a theory of course). Not however, for the sake of love between Ron and Hermione. I didn't mention either of those. I suggested that if he was to endure the loss of yet another loved one (Luna?) in the course of defeating Voldemort, Harry may feel that that would be one time too many and go proudly through the veil, having fulfilled his desiny, to satisfy his own desire viz a viz living in eternity with those he has loved and lost. No mention in the remotest sense of doing that for the sake of Ron and Hermione.

Here's the link to that post:
http://cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=589617&postcount=1018

My theory is that onlythe one are mentioned who are close enough to Harry in that case Ginny isn't in this group. Why let her out? Because she isn't important? Maybe someone can help me out I'm confused. Nah not really because this is kinda funny after we learned how incredible important Ginny is and practiculary can replace Hermione. Just wondering.

Because Ginny will give Harry the best gift of all - LOVE! :love:

First off thank you FP *curtsy*. Also, Ture for informing me and others of the ROTK trailer on Monday. Great posts Hawk, eva, Nia, Ture, Perrdy and FP! :clap:


I have a question to anyone out there, particularly those who 'ship' a particular way. Regarding ships, do you...
1) favour certain pairings because of what they bring to the 'ultimate struggle' [in which many are key [the DA, the Order, etc] but which arguably hinges on Harry 'getting it' regarding this mysterious power needed to defeat Voldemort],
2) favour certain pairings because the main character a seems best suited for x, therefore y and z are available and seem best suited for b and c --> given [a=Harry],
3) favour certain pairings because your favourite character is not the main character, and your interests re: pairing lies with your favourite character with either the main character or some other.
?

I'll answer briefly: 1) & 2) apply to me, but how many would choose 2 & 3 or 1 & 3? Or all 3? And why? if I may ask.
Thanks!


Well after reading posts from you Nia, evaluna, and lleyki you've made me believe more number 1 and could I add a fifth option?

5) favour certain pairings because the main character A seems best suited for x.

It's number 2 basically, just without pairing off whomever is left. So yeah 1 & 5. :)

evaluna
But what makes it special to H/Hr folks is the very aspect of unconditional love and the depth of the connection between these two characters [in our opinion]. I daresay if this existed between any other two characters, we'd give them our backing as well. Speaking for myself, for certain.

I second that.

Daveydee, I do remember that post & it was v. interesting. I could swear someone said something about Harry sacrificing himself for the love of his friends but obviously cannot remember who said it. I should check your link! However, I remember that whilst I didn't agree with the 'through the veil' bit, I admitted the possbility. I think I mentioned that it probably depended on whether JKR was going for traditional, sacrificial Christian allegory ending like LOTR or Narnia, v. an esoteric or postmodern sort of ending. I really hope it's not the former but that's just personal preference. I don't think going on to the next great adventure at the age of 17 is very uplifting or redemptive to the general readership, and I have to hope that JKR has a more hopeful statement to make on the ability of good to overcome evil but I'm not JKR so we'll see...


Davedee
No. I feel that the starting point should be the raw materials, i.e. the positive evidence. From that we can then ascertain if a theme or themes is /are developing and can ultimately determine the conceptual message JK is trying to convey. I did once feel that the romantic sub-plot would be an aside to the main plot, but having considered further (and in no small part as a result of these debates) I no longer believe that to be the case. I say sub-plot. That is a great mistake. We should be talking about sub-plots, plural.

BTW, yes my ideas [and Nia's, on the same general wavelength, and noddwyd's, too, as I understood them -- actually noddwyd's input was critical for me in tying a lot of these ideas to canon] are based on principles that I believe in. Where is noddwyd, anyway? Am missing that gent's input on this topic. Actually Flying Phoenix has always incorporated the element [love in some form] as foundational to her theories, and she was critical too. So hopefully Nia and FP will assist here as well.

I used to be very much more a positivist, which conflicted with my simultaneous belief in the unseen connections and patterns that bind us, represented by the allegory of the tapestry. This allegory [if you don't know of it, else pardon] relates that the world as we know it appears to us as the back of a grand tapestry, such that we cannot grasp the intricate patterns, nor the many mysterious and wonderful connections that bind us all. Instead, these patterns and connects seem vague or illusory, if only we could but view the tapestry as it really appears.

The tangible and the intangible, the profane or the sacred, which is more real? Your body, the physical world around you, or your mind, your thoughts, your perceptions of that world? The canon text is the hard evidence, the interpretation, the soft. But without firm canon, the interpretation is the space between, the realm of possiblities, and is where the magic lies. We all rely on the textual evidence [well, most of us], but it's our own interpretations that give the text meaning to us. I'm not really disagreeing here at all, more just elaborating with my own twist. For me it comes down to my own experiences, and if I had to list out the number and depth of amazing coincidences and connections I have run across in this very small world, you'd wonder how I was ever a positivist at all, for even one moment .

I did not read OoP nor any prior work with the expectation that I would see such deep redeeming philosophical statements -- but in fact in OoP I did see that. I became even more excited and entranced with the series when I saw what I could reasonably interpret as powerful philosophical, esoteric, and spiritual themes in canon [again, all that DoM sort of stuff ;)], as I believe very much in the redemptive and transformational power of love, in both its broadest sense and at the level of the individual. I feel that the power of these these themes elevates the series to another level, and I don't just mean another level of literature -- though clearly that is one meaning. More that the series as a whole is itself an allegory for the power of love, of connection [your themes of unity and reconcilation, yes I very much agree there], and of redemption and transformation.



I see no inherent contradiction in depicting a R/Hr pairing together with a meaningful H/? pairing to achieve the sort of conclusion that we both wish to see. Simply, it doesn't need to be Hermione. You are aware of my previous post concerning Luna; you will also be aware of my earlier post which outlines how I see R/Hr as mirroring the other themes of the series - unity, reconcliation and tolerance. Those two posts take care of both R/Hr and H/?.

So really, evaluna, for me it really is just evidence. And the more I see the themes developing the more relevant and appropriate that evidence becomes. That's not to say I'm not a big thinker. [b]But my view is that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - it's a duck.

Ahh but first you must know what 'duck' is...without the existence of the Form of 'Duck' [conceptual], you cannot recognise its reflection on the material plane as 'duck'. You would call it and know it as something else, regardless of its true existence as 'duck'. For all we know you're from Vega or similar and make no distinction between feathered creatures of any kind...kidding, but you take the point. The positivist view limits us to the physical laws that govern this plane, and further, for many, limits their possibilities to that which is visible and extant. The alternative view says that reality is what you make it, bound only by the limits of your mind, that once you have freed your mind, you are then free to conceive of and implement new realities.

This is a powerful and somewhat threatening position because it affirms the importance and power of the individual. But it requires living with a seeming contradiction between the material [as we perceive it, imperfectly] and the ideal. Obviously the only way to reconcile this contradiction between material suffering and the power of thought over form is to realise that we must work to remove the difference between the material [imperfection, illusion] and the intangible [ideal, real], requiring both work on this material plane and belief in the power of love and of enlightened thought [for lack of a better phrase at present] to transform reality [through various means].

I am going to break out my v. of the philosophy of Harry Potter, if not tonight then v., v. soon. Please stay tuned...

First of all, when I said that the clues didn't need to be splashed all over the place, some people thought I was calling H/Hr shippers stupid, which I did not....I don't think anyone here is stupid......
But now you go and say that just because I don't see them it doesn't mean they're not there, which is exactly the same thing I said and one of you told me not to, and i apologized, but please do not do the same thing then.
Also, don't take advantage of the fact that Hermione is a friend of Harry, one of his best friends, haven't you ever considered that maybe there's a reason Ginny's gift wasn't mentioned....
It's unfair to say that Tonks has a better shot than Ginny....because IMO Ginny has a better shot than anyone else....And hey.....Hermione has a better shot than Ron.......so let's keep the who-has-a-better-shot things in another way......debating. Which is what we are supossed to be doing here....

haven't you ever considered that maybe there's a reason Ginny's gift wasn't mentioned....


I didn't even recognise it wasn't there thats what find somehow funny. I did get after I read this scene once more because of this famous "perfume" scene.

What leads me by the way to the point that Hermione couldn't sound different as happily because she was exited about Harry's guft. Its quiet naturelly that she don't change the sound of her voice. I mean she "wanted it for ages". There is someone really happy and not even a "really unusual Perfume" which don't like can't change this.

But back to Ginny and to your post ana_banana . I don't know but I haven't call you anything and a second thought don't take this what here happens to serious.
Ginny don't give Harry a christmas gift. Why? Probably she don't has money? I mean her cards were even from her hands as bought. Maybe she don't know what she can give him. Or she has to many brothers who all get presents from her. There are pretty much possibles but even Dobby did give Harry something. I don't speak that much from Ginny much more about JKR.
See there is a little theory out that Ginny don't want be anything more as his friend. This say if she has no money and make something by herself It did look like in COS or PoA. So she can't do it.
She isn't interest in Harry because his ignoring of her in the past did kinda hurt. Thats what the theory says. Harry isn't that what she want. Some said he is selfabsorbed and somehow is this right.
She wanted something from him but he never did gave it her. This wanting did bring her into the greatest mess in her whole life and that was in her first year. After this nothing did change. Only Ginny did change she had to life with it. Harry didn't care in PoA how she feels. There was nothing. I mean this girl was possed by Riddle and did things she would never do by herself. This is a living nightmare. Fine her hero did rescue her but after that? She was alone.
I'm pretty sure PoA did a great deal to her and wake up but only in GoF she realise Harry isn't interested.
He don't even ask her as last resort. Its Ron who speaks for him. I mean wow this hurt. Than the story with Cho this girl he did ask in person.

But the top of all is OotP. There he says he did forget it this worest year of her life. I mean if you aren't angry at this point than I don't know. At this very point you get this guy was never your guy and you will never be with him more as friends. He is just to selfabsorbed. Ginny is someone who wants attention and Harry isn't someone who give it her.
So no if Ginny falls back for Harry thats the worest thing what could happen to her. This lies behind her.

evaluna I will post something later to this issuse. Its kinda high. This say I need to use my brain :lol:

Nice posts evaluna, Grace, and Fp!!

Ummm someone should tell Grace, Perdy and Mars that we have been giving away the advance copies of Harry Potter and the Hero Sandwich on the Harmony, so I'm not sure where those guys are heading :p

I see no inherent contradiction in depicting a R/Hr pairing together with a meaningful H/? pairing to achieve the sort of conclusion that we both wish to see. Simply, it doesn't need to be Hermione. You are aware of my previous post concerning Luna; you will also be aware of my earlier post which outlines how I see R/Hr as mirroring the other themes of the series - unity, reconcliation and tolerance. Those two posts take care of both R/Hr and H/?.

What is interesting is that you are admitting that you see a contradiction in a H/Hr and a meaningful R/? pairing? Of which there has been positive textual evidence of a R/L pairing in the future. You are also admitting to a blindness in that in needs to be Hr/R.

Cheers!

FP: we don't find out what Harry gave Ginny either.


I have a question to anyone out there, particularly those who 'ship' a particular way. Regarding ships, do you...
1) favour certain pairings because of what they bring to the 'ultimate struggle' [in which many are key [the DA, the Order, etc] but which arguably hinges on Harry 'getting it' regarding this mysterious power needed to defeat Voldemort],
2) favour certain pairings because the main character a seems best suited for x, therefore y and z are available and seem best suited for b and c --> given [a=Harry],
3) favour certain pairings because your favourite character is not the main character, and your interests re: pairing lies with your favourite character with either the main character or some other.


Well 1 and 2 but also the way I ship has to do with the way I see canon evidence unfolding and it coincides with a lot of personal beliefs about real-life relationships. My favourite characters happen to be the main male and female lead characters.

Originally by Flying Phoenix:

But back to Ginny and to your post ana_banana . I don't know but I haven't call you anything and a second thought don't take this what here happens to serious.
Ginny don't give Harry a christmas gift. Why? Probably she don't has money? I mean her cards were even from her hands as bought. Maybe she don't know what she can give him. Or she has to many brothers who all get presents from her. There are pretty much possibles but even Dobby did give Harry something. I don't speak that much from Ginny much more about JKR.
See there is a little theory out that Ginny don't want be anything more as his friend. This say if she has no money and make something by herself It did look like in COS or PoA. So she can't do it.
She isn't interest in Harry because his ignoring of her in the past did kinda hurt. Thats what the theory says. Harry isn't that what she want. Some said he is selfabsorbed and somehow is this right.
She wanted something from him but he never did gave it her. This wanting did bring her into the greatest mess in her whole life and that was in her first year. After this nothing did change. Only Ginny did change she had to life with it. Harry didn't care in PoA how she feels. There was nothing. I mean this girl was possed by Riddle and did things she would never do by herself. This is a living nightmare. Fine her hero did rescue her but after that? She was alone.
I'm pretty sure PoA did a great deal to her and wake up but only in GoF she realise Harry isn't interested.
He don't even ask her as last resort. Its Ron who speaks for him. I mean wow this hurt. Than the story with Cho this girl he did ask in person.

But the top of all is OotP. There he says he did forget it this worest year of her life. I mean if you aren't angry at this point than I don't know. At this very point you get this guy was never your guy and you will never be with him more as friends. He is just to selfabsorbed. Ginny is someone who wants attention and Harry isn't someone who give it her.
So no if Ginny falls back for Harry thats the worest thing what could happen to her. This lies behind her.

I don't know why would would that be bad. I think instead of Ginny 'falling at Harry's feet' like many claim it will happen, and which was pointed of one of the reasons of that pair not happening. Now Harry has to earn Ginny. He does has to correct his 'flaw and failing.' ;)

Gily Ann

Edit: Why would Harry need to exchange presents with Ginny? As far as I can remember he doesn't exchange gifts with the twins? Does he?

I’ve noticed that none of you have said any thing about Parvati Patil? Well I’d just like to remind you that she is a pureblood wizard. Because of this small detail I think that the chances of her and Ron (also a pureblood) having a relationship is pretty good. Oh and I’m all for the Harry Hermione thing.

One thing I can't believe I didn't think of before, and someone else has probably previously mentioned it, is to do with this:

"We wanted to talk to you, Harry," said Ginny, "but as you've been hiding every since we got back-"
"I didn't want anyone to talk to me," said harry, who was feeling more and more nettled.
"Well, that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily, "seeing as you don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels."

That's it! She had no excuse!
Even if she didn't have any idea about how to help Harry she - and/or Ron and Sirius and the others - should have tried to talk to him outside the room he was in, to get him to come out.
But don't her words suggest even more strongly that she should have gone up to the room and said "I can help you, Harry. I know what it's like to be possessed by Voldemort."
She had THOUGHT about this, about how the situations were similar, and yet she still did nothing?
It wasn't like she was sitting downstairs clueless about how to help. She doesn't have that excuse. That really shows a lack of initiative.

My theory is that only the one are mentioned who are close enough to Harry in that case Ginny isn't in this group. Why let her out? Because she isn't important? Maybe someone can help me out I'm confused. Nah not really because this is kinda funny after we learned how incredible important Ginny is and practiculary can replace Hermione. Just wondering

Um, lets see here, Ginny hasn't really spoken to the guy for like four years! She's supposed to be up and getting him a Christmas gift when she doesn't even know him? Well maybe... anyhoo, Ginny's important but does that mean her importance will have to involve her getting Harry a gift? Just 'cuz she's becoming important doesn't mean that she's got to be thrown into every single situation or whatnot. She didn't get him a gift. whoopti-do. On another note, did Gred and Forge get him a gift? (not a shipper question, just don't have my books opn hand and would like to know.)

Anyhoo, got to spend rest of time catching up and reading. Phooey. :p

I have a question to anyone out there, particularly those who 'ship' a particular way. Regarding ships, do you...
1) favour certain pairings because of what they bring to the 'ultimate struggle' [in which many are key [the DA, the Order, etc] but which arguably hinges on Harry 'getting it' regarding this mysterious power needed to defeat Voldemort],

Yes. I feel that Hermione has the power to aid Harry in his quest to find a way to vanquish Voldemort (physically or not), as well as his own demons. I think that all three of these goals are related, like you’ve suggested in your question. Based on what has happened in the text, Hermione is the most likely of the female characters to fill the role of Harry’s principal ally, romantic interest, and sprititual companion (i.e. best friend).

2) favour certain pairings because the main character a seems best suited for x, therefore y and z are available and seem best suited for b and c --> given [a=Harry],

A <> X, yes.

A <> X, therefore Y <> B and Z <> C, no.

3) favour certain pairings because your favourite character is not the main character, and your interests re: pairing lies with your favourite character with either the main character or some other.

Nope.

I still say Ginny and Harry have a chance. Harry looks just like his dad right? And Ginny supposedly looks a lot like his mom. I don't think JK Rowling just thought that up without any meaning.

Parvati, you have a point there......but I don't think H/G will end up together because of the way Harry's parents looked, although its been considered as a big clue....Still.....I see better clues but oh well lol.
Flying Phoenix....First of all, I don't think Ginny is over Harry.....but alright, Ginny is looking like she doesn't have a crush on Harry....for example, I had forgotten to reply the train scene........What did you guys expect?? Did you expect Ginny to say after Ron's "furtive" look and comment...did you expect her to say "You are right Ron, Harry I love you lets go and snog" I mean COME ON. You don't do that....
And just remember what Hermione said ... Ginny GAVE UP on Harry, but she still likes him...
And I wouldn't say Harry didn't care about Ginny's problems.......but things were very different in PoA...
And I agree with Gily Ann, maybe it's Harry's turn to be going after her....

Welcom, Parvati Pati, another H/Hr shipper! :D

Yes, Harry looks very much like James. Ginny looks very much like Lily with the red hair.

However, if JKR were to pair Harry up with Ginny based on their physical similarities to James and Lily, would not that make a very superficial basis for a relationship?

In terms of character and personality, Harry has similarities with James, Sirius and Remus. Ginny and Hermione have similarities with Lily, although, I'd say that Hermione displays more of the qualities that are characteristic of Lily. This is because Hermione has had more screen time than Ginny in the books.

The bottom line is, if a relationship is formed based on superficial factors, then that love is not going to last, and it will not be able to withstand the rigours of a life like the one Harry has led up to this point. We can only expet more challenges to obstruct Harry's path and if his partner's relationship with him is not formed on solid foundations (character and personality), then Harry's future in the story looks very disappointing.

Great posts Harmonians! :clap: And thanks for your support! Oh and FP? It's "heroine", not "hero", but thanks all the same! :D

When did Hermione said that she notice that Ron was jealous? As far as I can remember she explained of why he is jealous. We only know that she saw him at breakfast. He must have talk to him.

Hermione must have noticed that Ron is jealous because she told Harry. If she didn't know, then Harry wouldn't know either. Also, no one is denying that Hermione talked with Ron, but how long was their chat? How deep was their conversation? No one knows. However, from the timing, it seems that she went directly back to the common room after realizing that Harry and Ron had a fight.

You said that Hermione didn't know that Ron and Harry had a fight.

Err...no I didn't. Hermione obviously found out in the morning from Ron. I never said Hermione didn't know that Harry and Ron had a fight, but the fact is, she just found out in the morning, and the fight was the previous night; it is touching to see how immediately she sought after Harry after she found out.

So if by when she reaches Harry she knows that they did had a fight and she knows the causes and what happend.

I'm not talking about her knowing that Ron and Harry fought, but the fact that she knows that Harry doesn't want to eat breakfast in the Great Hall and receive any attention. This is what I was commenting on. This is what shows Hermione's understanding of Harry's character; not the incident itself, but how Harry would react to the incident.

How else did she knew? She must have talk to Ron then fully. Because there was no one else there

There are "thousands" of people in the Great Hall for breakfast. I can just totally see a deep heart to heart across the breakfast table along with several hundreds of other students all chattering at the same time. Yeah, compare that to a quiet walk around the lake between Harry and Hermione. Oooh, the contrast...

She knows the reason of why she is, she knows why Ron is angry.

She knows that Ron is jealous; she knows why he's jealous, and she sympathizes him, but is there is deep mutual understanding? Nope.

It appears to me that she does! She never took sides on the fight.

She seems hopelessly one-sided. She is always by Harry's side; even Colin Creevey notices it. He certainly never saw Ron and Hermione alone together. Furthermore, *Harry* never comments on seeing Ron and Hermione alone together, so that shows that Hermione did spend most of her time with Harry, if not all of her time.

She kept in the middle. To me she understands Ron not Harry.

Correction: She sympathizes Ron; of course she does, but to say that she doesn't understand Harry is stretching it quite a bit. Re-read the walk around the lake scene (the *1st* one ^_^) When Harry makes a comment like "You don't--think I entered myself" and Hermione said, "Of course not..." (paraphrasing) How can Hermione not understand Harry? She sees his views, and agrees with him. Although she wants Harry and Ron to reconcile, she *never* tries to make Harry apologize to Ron. So essentially, she doesn't believe Harry is wrong, which leaves Ron. IMO, understanding requires a common ground where people share similar POV's; and in this case, I believe Hermione shares Harry's POV, and not Ron's.



Even when she doesn't take sides.

Oh she "tries" not to take sides, but whose side did she stand by? Harry's.

I'm generalizing because I see this very frequently. It's not just you. I'm talking in general for what's my perception. It feels sometime that the R/Hr friendship moments are always trying to be discounted as something else. Never is about Ron and Hermione's friendship. The moment something is found it's discounted at something else.

I see a double standard with R/Hrs and H/Gers.

But I see that she spends her time almost equally. She goes from one to the other. She knows what's going with Ron.

To the contrary, Hermione doesn't mention Ron often. I believe she only mentioned him two or three times, and one of which was during the first walk around the lake where she told Harry that Ron's angry because he's jealous, and there is another mention of Ron prior to Hogsmeade, but I think it was actually Harry who brought up Ron, not Hermione.

Polaris Ron is a Weasley! He had 5 other brothers in that school everyone knows the Weasley's.

I'm sure we'll be able to find at least one person who doesn't know the Weasleys. Can you say that Harry is not well-known? Can you really state that the Weasleyes are more famous than Harry? Really, you're stretching it quite a bit.

Even Dumbledore says how popular the Weasley's are.

Where?

Malfoy's recognizes him without having met him.

He isn't exactly Ron's friend now is he.

If I'm not mistaken Ron is shown with Dean, Seamus, Lee, Fred & George and I think Neville.

Err so is Harry. Ron rarely shows up together with Dean and Seamus. Usually it's Harry and Ron; Dean and Seamus.

Harry may be the boy who lived but none of those people hang out with him.

Do you have any evidence to say that these people hang out often with Ron, but not Harry, other than the time Harry and Ron were fighting?

For Harry making friends is harder than for Ron

Err....purely speculation. Furthermore, if Ron is sooo much more popular and well-liked and well-known than Harry, then why in the world does he feel overshadowed and jealous?!


Because she is not glued to them. Hermione needs to be shown outside of Ron and Harry

So far, Hermione has shown no inclination of abandoning her best friends for other people.

To classify Hermione as an old soul doesn't click for me. Hermione may act like Harry mother sometimes but that has more to do with her own style of working and her excesive control manners.

Hermione is most definitely not just any normal teenager. She is more mature and responsible than any other girl her age. Even if she's not ancient, she is still very "old soulish". Besides, you still haven't replied to my request of JKR's quote. If you have the article, would you mind posting it? I would really be interested to see it.



Not for me. From where I view this. JKR choosed Hermione to understand Ron's feelings not Harry's.

If JKR really "chose" to have Hermione understand Ron's feelings rather than just sympathize him, JKR could have made Hermione by Ron's side more often. She could have Hermione mention Ron incessantly to Harry. She could've made Harry comment on seeing Ron and Hermione together, chattering or even bickering. But JKR didn't. Not once did JKR ever mention Harry or anyone else see Ron and Hermione together.

In many ways Harry didn't need someone that tell him what to do, he needed someone that listen to him.

I agree that Harry needs someone more adult and older to listen to him. Hermione is his best friend, but she is also within the trio. It would be extremely difficult to complain about another mutual friend to your best friend. However, I believe that Harry also need people to tell him what to do. In the dragon task, for example, Harry owled Sirius to consult with him about the dragon. Harry is strong and independent, but he is also very rash and reckless, which would be why he needs someone more rational to guide him, which, to me, would be Hermione.


That's what Sirius did. Harry is very prone to feeling depress in many ways what Harry needed was emotional support rather than technical support.

He needed both emotional and technical support. Hermione supplied both of them. The technical support Hermione gave him is undeniable. She helps him prefect the accio charm which not only got him past the dragon, but it later also safed his life. The emotional support Hermione gave him is more profound. Just by believing him him, without question or doubt, is a powerful emotional support in it self. In OotP, Hermione further improved her technical and emotional support to Harry.

In many ways I feel Hermione fails at that. The emotional part of Harry.

See above two posts.

As usual, I disagree. I feel like both Ron and Hermione are there to support Harry.

I believe that Ron and Hermione are there to support Harry, and should be there to support him; however, as we see in GoF, Ron clearly fails in the "support". In that period, Hermione took over and supplied both technical and emotional support to Harry.

Ron and Harry are inseparable. IMO in there Harry clearly stated his discomfort on Hermione's modus operandi. It simply doesn't appeal to him.

Quote?? Evidence? Where does it say that Hermione's way doesn't appeal to Harry? Why are they friends then if Harry can't stand Hermione? And you accuse of us H/Hr shippers for underminding R/Hr friendship, you should really make sure that you don't make the same mistakes.

Besides Ginny is on a year down.

What does that have to do with anything? Isn't Ron her brother?

That happend overnight not even Hermione knew!
So, Harry and Ron's fight certainly didn't last solely for one night. There was tension between Harry and Ron for a long time, so what's Ginny's excuse for not comforting her the guy she was so "languishly" in love with? Oh that's right. Her excuse is JKR. Afterall, JKR chose to write Hermione that way, not Ginny.

No never let Ginny get close in book 4!

Exactly. JKR certainly didn't



This is an example of how unless it's Harry and Hermione everyone else is friends, sister, relative or simply aquaintance of someone else.

At that point, Harry and Ginny can only be counted as aquaintances, and Hermione and Ginny might be a little more, but we didn't have enough evidence to think that they were close friends in GoF or any of the previous books.

The only real friendship is the one Harry and Hermione have.

Oh there are many real friendships, but Harry and Hermione's certainly is one of the brightest among them.

Oh I wish I could a few more inches! But I'm over 21 I think I'm done

I didn't mean your height.

Everything has been done already! It's the style of writting, the entretainment, etc. You read for the fun of it.

Oh really? So what you're saying is that literature can not be unique or original anymore and that every author just copies some other authors ideas, themes, and plot. You know, I don't know if you've ever heard of something called copyright. It is actually very useful to prevent others from plagarizing your work...I'm sure Jane Austen had some sort of patent...Poor JKR, I guess she'll just have to "copy" from another author's work...afterall, she can't possibly have her own ideas and style of writing now can she.

Cheers!

Polaris

Okay...did Ginny give up on Harry or has she also stopped having feelings for him? I think it is the latter. Think about it.

When Ginny had a crush on Harry, she always acted odd around him. We know from the twins and Ron that Ginny is not normally a shy girl, but only got that way because of her crush on Harry. In OOTP Hermione tells us that Ginny has given up on Harry. However, whether or not this means that she no longer has feelings for him is left unanswered. Or is it? In Order of the Phoenix, Ginny does not act shy around Harry. She does not turn red in his presence, she does not run away, nothing. In fact, she is not bothered by Harry's presence at all! The last time Ginny acted at all bothered by Harry being around was prior to the Yule Ball. There she met Michael Corner and seems to have not only given up on Harry, but judging by the lack of crush-like behaviour by her around Harry and how she is actively pursuing other guys, it really does seem as though she no longer has a crush on Harry.

She has simply started acting around him like any of the other Weasleys. Like a casual friend or just a sister. In other words, it seems to me that she has truly become just another member of the family that has taken Harry in like one of their own. She has finally ended her first crush and now accepts him as a part of the family. She seems to treat him the same way she treats Ron. I even find the scene with the chocolate similar enough to the one in GOF when we saw her talking to Ron after he got shot down by Fleur.

One thing I can't believe I didn't think of before, and someone else has probably previously mentioned it, is to do with this:

"We wanted to talk to you, Harry," said Ginny, "but as you've been hiding every since we got back-"
"I didn't want anyone to talk to me," said harry, who was feeling more and more nettled.
"Well, that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily, "seeing as you don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels."

That's it! She had no excuse!
Even if she didn't have any idea about how to help Harry she - and/or Ron and Sirius and the others - should have tried to talk to him outside the room he was in, to get him to come out.
But don't her words suggest even more strongly that she should have gone up to the room and said "I can help you, Harry. I know what it's like to be possessed by Voldemort."
She had THOUGHT about this, about how the situations were similar, and yet she still did nothing?
It wasn't like she was sitting downstairs clueless about how to help. She doesn't have that excuse. That really shows a lack of initiative.

Nice point Turambar!! If I may add to this a little,

This also strongly points to Ginny seeing H/Hr. Ginny had thought it through but took no action until Hermione's arrival. Why would Ginny, who is supposed to understand Harry so well, have to wait for Hermione? Now if one examines the fact that Hermione knew about Ginny/Michael then we can reasonably deduce that they had a conversation about the romances in their lives. At this point Hermione could have told Ginny about her feelings for Harry. This is not unbelieveable as Ginny was seeing Michael since the Yule Ball and told Hermione that she no longer fancied Harry. Perhaps at this point Hermione told Ginny about her feelings for Harry and Ginny understood completely. And even if Hermione did not admit her feelings for Harry there could have also been a look of relief on Hermione's face that tipped Ginny off, the way that Hermione was talking about Harry, many little clues that Ginny could have picked up on to lead her to see that Hermione loves Harry.

Now one could make a case for Ron waiting for Hermione, better to face Harry as the Trio. But why would Ginny who is supposed to be this fireball and not afraid of Harry wait?

One could also look at the declaration of Ginny's choosing Dean as better as a way to reaffirm to Hermione that she was indeed over Harry. And as I have said before why would Ginny choose Dean knowing that Harry and Cho had split up, unless she was truly over Harry.

Cheers!

Do you mind if I butt in?



Hermione must have noticed that Ron is jealous because she told Harry. If she didn't know, then Harry wouldn't know either. Also, no one is denying that Hermione didn't talk with Ron, but how long was their chat? How deep was their conversation? No one knows. However, from the timing, it seems that she went directly back to the common room after realizing that Harry and Ron had a fight.

It's all about assuming, ain't it? ;)


Err...no I didn't. Hermione obviously found out in the morning from Ron. I never said Hermione didn't know that Harry and Ron had a fight, but the fact is, she just found out in the morning, and the fight was the previous night; it is touching to see how immediately she sought after Harry after she found out.

Okay.

There are "thousands" of people in the Great Hall for breakfast. I can just totally see a deep heart to heart across the breakfast table along with several hundreds of other students all chattering at the same time. Yeah, compare that to a quiet walk around the lake between Harry and Hermione. Oooh, the contrast...

There's about a thousand and we don't know when and where Ron and Hermione spoke. Or do we? I don't have my book and don't know for sure and definitely don't want to end up with egg on my face. Anyway, do we know anything about their talk except for the fact that Ron's jealous? I don't think so.


She knows that Ron is jealous; she knows why he's jealous, and she sympathizes him, but is there is deep mutual understanding? Nope.

Okay. How do we know if there isn't a deep mutual understanding? These books are from Harry's point of view and he can be naive. Hermione's feelings aren't all of a sudden going to be popping onto the page full frontal.

She seems hopelessly one-sided. She is always by Harry's side; even Colin Creevey notices it. He certainly never saw Ron and Hermione alone together. Furthermore, *Harry* never comments on seeing Ron and Hermione alone together, so that shows that Hermione did spend most of her time with Harry, if not all of her time.

If Ron and Hermione are *alone* then how can Harry see them together?!


Correction: She sympathizes Ron; of course she does, but to say that she doesn't understand Harry is stretching it quite a bit. Re-read the walk around the lake scene (the *1st* one ^_^) When Harry makes a comment like "You don't--think I entered myself" and Hermione said, "Of course not..." (paraphrasing) How can Hermione not understand Harry? She sees his views, and agrees with him. Although she wants Harry and Ron to reconcile, she *never* tries to force Harry to apologize to Ron. So essentially, she doesn't believe Harry is wrong, which leaves Ron. IMO, understanding requires a common ground where people share similar POV's; and in this case, I believe Hermione shares Harry's POV, and not Ron's.

She doesn't seem to be forcing either of them to talk to each other. Everytime Harry's like "tell him from me such and such" she's like "tell him yourself." She's all about them reconciling on their own and she's not going to get into the middle of that. She did know that tehy were both miserable with out each other though.

And anyway, they share the same views? Okay.

You're going to assume that she shares Harry's point of view because we never see her interaction with Ron and can only see it with Harry. How do we know that she doesn't see it the way Ron sees it?


Oh she "tries" not to take sides, but whose side did she stand by? Harry's.

It seemed to me that she was going back and forth and wasn't really picking a side. She was trying to stay neutral and just get them together.


I see a double standard with R/Hrs and H/Gers.

Maybe... some... but there are also double standards on the opposing ship. :p




Err so is Harry. Ron rarely shows up together with Dean and Seamus. Usually it's Harry and Ron; Dean and Seamus.

I know, what about Neville? You think he hangs with the ladies? :eyebrows:



Do you have any evidence to say that these people hang out often with Ron, but not Harry, other than the time Harry and Ron were fighting?

Probably not. But this isn't exactly my argument anyway so...



Err....purely speculation. Furthermore, if Ron is sooo much more popular and well-liked and well-known than Harry, then why in the world does he feel overshadowed and jealous?!

Inferiority complex? Many people who are basically on top of the world are insecure about themselves. But I disagree anyway, I don't think Ron's that popular, at least, not with the ladies. :D


So far, Hermione has shown no inclination of abandoning her best friends for other people.

This is true. :agree:



Hermione is most definitely not just any normal teenager. She is more mature and responsible than any other girl her age. Even if she's not ancient, she is still very "old soulish".

She definitely ain't normal. She's a witch for crying out loud. :p

I'm going to disagree, I don't think Hermione's an old soul. She's knowledgable and all that, but she hasn't faced everything and gone through any of the emotional traumas that "old souls" go through. That's my opinion.


If JKR really "chose" to have Hermione understand Ron's feelings rather than just sympathize him, JKR could have made Hermione by Ron's side more often. She could have Hermione mention Ron incessantly to Harry. She could've made Harry comment on seeing Ron and Hermione together, chattering or even bickering. But JKR didn't. Not once did JKR ever mention Harry or anyone else see Ron and Hermione together.

Maybe becasue no one sees them together. :eyebrows: Just joking. Really, just joking.

.

I agree that Harry needs someone more adult and older to listen to him. Hermione is his best friend, but she is also within the trio. It would be extremely difficult to complain about another mutual friend to your best friend. However, I believe that Harry also need people to tell him what to do. In the dragon task, for example, Harry owled Sirius to consult with him about the dragon. Harry is strong and independent, but he is also very rash and reckless, which would be why he needs someone more rational to guide him, which, to me, would be Hermione.

But does this mean that she has to be his love interest. Like you've said they've been like best friends for five years. She's as helpful as she was since PS. Why do they have to hook up?


He needed both emotional and technical support. Hermione supplied both of them. The technical support Hermione gave him is undeniable. She helps him prefect the accio charm which not only got him past the dragon, but it later also safed his life. The emotional support Hermione gave him is more profound. Just by believing him him, without question or doubt, is a powerful emotional support in it self. In OotP, Hermione further improved her technical and emotional support to Harry.

Technical support? Yes. Emotional support? In my humble opinion, no. Through OotP, we get Hermione saying some pretty hurtful things about Sirius, if she really was in touch with emotions she would've thought about what Sirius was going through. In turn, when she dissed Sirius, Harry got angry at her. For shizzie.


I believe that Ron and Hermione are there to support Harry, and should be there to support him; however, as we see in GoF, Ron clearly fails in the "support". In that period, Hermione took over and supplied both technical and emotional support to Harry.

For the first part yes. He did fail. But Harry also failed. They both failed. Neither of them were willing to talk to each other and that screwed them both over. I agree and disagree.


So, Harry and Ron's fight certainly didn't last solely for one night. There was tension between Harry and Ron for a long time, so what's Ginny's excuse for not comforting her the guy she was so "languishly" in love with? Oh that's right. Her excuse is JKR. Afterall, JKR chose to write Hermione that way, not Ginny.

How could Ginny talk to Harry, console and comfort when she could barely talk to the guy. Jk wrote her to be in love with him and being in love meant that she didn't really have the courage to speak up a lot of the time.


At that point, Harry and Ginny can only be counted as aquaintances, and Hermione and Ginny might be a little more, but we didn't have enough evidence to think that they were close friends in GoF or any of the previous books.

If Hermione and Ginny weren't very good friends then why would they know all that sh!t about each other? Why would they know all about each other's love lives? Just because we don't see their relationship doesn't mean it's not happening. I mean, we don't see Cho and Cedric's relationship but we do know that it was quite close and that they were probably loved each other and everything. Just because it's not clear cut in front of us doesn't mean it's not there.



Oh there are many real friendships, but Harry and Hermione's certainly is one of the brightest among them.

Okay.

Okay...did Ginny give up on Harry or has she also stopped having feelings for him? I think it is the latter. Think about it.

I think it's the former.

When Ginny had a crush on Harry, she always acted odd around him. We know from the twins and Ron that Ginny is not normally a shy girl, but only got that way because of her crush on Harry. In OOTP Hermione tells us that Ginny has given up on Harry. However, whether or not this means that she no longer has feelings for him is left unanswered. Or is it? In Order of the Phoenix, Ginny does not act shy around Harry. She does not turn red in his presence, she does not run away, nothing. In fact, she is not bothered by Harry's presence at all! The last time Ginny acted at all bothered by Harry being around was prior to the Yule Ball. There she met Michael Corner and seems to have not only given up on Harry, but judging by the lack of crush-like behaviour by her around Harry and how she is actively pursuing other guys, it really does seem as though she no longer has a crush on Harry.

Sirius83, we also know that Ginny's a good liar and can probably lie her way out of awkward situations. Like when being asked if she still likes Harry, she could lie, very affectively I might add, and no one would really be nonethewiser. As for the yule ball, playing the field, no more crush. :shrug:


She has simply started acting around him like any of the other Weasleys. Like a casual friend or just a sister. In other words, it seems to me that she has truly become just another member of the family that has taken Harry in like one of their own. She has finally ended her first crush and now accepts him as a part of the family.

I disagree, she's not close enough to be considered part of the family. Not just yet. And where does it say in the books that Ginny considers Harry sort of like a brother? Or Harry of her like a sister? I find it weird that the relationships between the Wealsey brothers and Harry are som family like yet the relationship between Harry and Ginny isn't so. But that's just my opinion.



I hope to goodness that this post makes sense. :p

Interesting Hawk.
It's pretty clear that Ginny and Hermione discussed Ron's reaction at the Yule ball from Hermione's comment 'she knew you would react this way' when Hermione tells Ron about Ginny and Michael. Knowing how girl pals work, Hermione may even have unintentionally intentionally mentioned Ginny's boyfriend to Ron on Ginny's behalf to get Ron used to the idea. ;) And Ginny didn't show any jealousy over Cho.

This is a very late reply to Daveydee! I see the thread has moved on and I am tardy again. :sigh:

I've seen some great ideas I'd like to respond to. Hopefully I'll get my post done before the subject changes again.

Thank you, Daveydee



Originally Posted by Daveydee:
Now your post. As I said - nice. But where is the killer evidence? The motive is compelling, the opportunity is available but without the evidence to nail the fact, it all amounts to very little.

Oh, there is evidence alright, but we both know because it is not "definitive," it will be subjected to, examination :huh: , rumination :shrug: , speculation :rolleyes: , evaluation :grumble: , and finally and ultimately, condemnation :td: . :lol:

I see you long for the rush of battle, the clash of swords, the heft of a six-shooter… :evil: I’m sorry, but I really don’t make a very good huckleberry. I’d much rather ponder the esoteric. I would never have made it in Tombstone, Arizona, even as the local school ma’am.

I shall, however, endeavor to do my best—

Q: Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?
A: The answer to that is in Goblet of Fire.

I always felt this to be a brilliant deflection. It essentially tells you nothing. If readers want to see Hermione liking Ron more than a friend, they will, of course perceive that “ask me next time and not as a last resort ” comment as a request to be his date for the next ball, despite the fact that he had not too long before as good as grouped Hermione among the school’s “trolls” along with Eloise Midgen, then openly humiliated her at the biggest school event of the year. It’s easy to say ‘oh, she likes him,' I suppose, if you see Hermione as one of those girls who has such poor self-esteem that she would take what basically amounts to verbal abuse as a sign of undying love.
If readers, on the other hand, don’t want to see the connection, there is ample room for realistic doubts.

Now, I am a firm believer in an old Southern American saying: “Every shut eye ain’t sleep, and every goodbye ain’t gone.” In other words, what we perceive ain’t necessarily the way it is.”

I posted my take on this whole scene a while back, and my idea is that Ron is not quite as awful or as jealous as he appears here. I am not fully convinced that jealousy is the sole or even prime motivator in this scene. The big problem is that we don’t see the ‘not as a last resort’ scene in its entirety.
If it had romantic implications for Hermione, where is the blushing, the furtive glances, the sudden shyness later in the book--ANYTHING to indicate something other than a blazing row had passed between the two of them.

In fifteen subsequent chapters of text in GoF, I don’t see anything except a couple of deflected arguments and the customary bickering that on one occasion drives Harry away.

Now, does Hermione like Ron more than a friend? I see no evidence that she does.

Posted by Daveydee:
My challenge is, therefore (and not just aimed at you Nia), what evidence of a positive nature is there in GoF which leads to the verdict that Hermione does not like Ron as more than a friend?


My answer is—
Since no conclusive evidence can be produced that she does like Ron as more than a friend, there is really no need to prove she doesn’t. I simply assume the negative until there is more evidence forwarded by JKR. This causes the matter to be once again relegated to the ‘suspended animation’ files, at least from my POV.

Oh, and Daveydee, to cite a mantra from the annals of the Good Ship Harmony: Just because there is nothing going on now, won’t mean that something can’t happen in Books 6 and 7. ;)

Cheers,
Nia

Addendum: I really wish I had written a lovely, elegant philosophical response like Evaluna's, especially since I just saw your heartfelt desire to pull meaning from the text. I did not in any way mean to be flippant and you know I do quite admire your intelligence, wit, and charming English manners Daveydee, and my response was not intended to slight your ideas in the least! There is a quite serious additional post on this subject on its way. Cheers.

And Ginny didn't show any jealousy over Cho.

But Hermione didn't show any jealousy toward Cho either. In fact, she was trying to hook them up. Shipper point? You're losing me. ;)

Sirius83, we also know that Ginny's a good liar and can probably lie her way out of awkward situations. Like when being asked if she still likes Harry, she could lie, very affectively I might add, and no one would really be nonethewiser. As for the yule ball, playing the field, no more crush. :shrug:

But I said nothing about lying her way out of situations. I spoke about her behaviour and attitude towards Harry in OOTP where we don't know if she still has a crush compared with books 1-4 where we know for a fact that she had a crush on him.

I disagree, she's not close enough to be considered part of the family. Not just yet. And where does it say in the books that Ginny considers Harry sort of like a brother? Or Harry of her like a sister? I find it weird that the relationships between the Wealsey brothers and Harry are som family like yet the relationship between Harry and Ginny isn't so. But that's just my opinion.

Sure, her relationship with Harry in books 1-4 was vastly different to her relationship with her brothers, but I'm talking about OOTP here when there seems to be a good chance that she no longer has her crush. If you can show me where in OOTP her behaviour toward Harry is different to how she is with say Ron, then please do and I may have to reconsider my positon. :)

You've put me in a corner, Sirius83. ;)

Ginny is indeed over her crush. Is she over Harry, though? She gave up on him. Is she over him? I just don't think so. You can't be in love with a person for four years and just throw all the emotions away. Otherwise, what kind of love is that? And it's testified by JK that Ginny is or was indeed in love with Harry. Where did her feelings go? They can't have all of a sudden warped into siblingish feelings. I mean, that's a huge leap.

As of now I'm assuming that she treats Harry just like any other guy she comes in contact with. They're friends and all, but they're not as close as her and her brothers. That's why I don't think that their relationship is siblingish. May change. May not. May turn romantic. May not. Just got to wait and see, right?

Man I hope I make sense. I've got my mind set about thinking on Grapes of Wrath.

You've put me in a corner, Sirius83. ;)

Ginny is indeed over her crush. Is she over Harry, though? She gave up on him. Is she over him? I just don't think so. You can't be in love with a person for four years and just throw all the emotions away. Otherwise, what kind of love is that? And it's testified by JK that Ginny is or was indeed in love with Harry. Where did her feelings go? They can't have all of a sudden warped into siblingish feelings. I mean, that's a huge leap.

As of now I'm assuming that she treats Harry just like any other guy she comes in contact with. They're friends and all, but they're not as close as her and her brothers. That's why I don't think that their relationship is siblingish. May change. May not. May turn romantic. May not. Just got to wait and see, right?

Man I hope I make sense. I've got my mind set about thinking on Grapes of Wrath.

For if she's over Harry, see my post #1305 ( http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=597501&postcount=1305 )

Also, longstanding feelings in the teenage years can vanish very quickly. That's what make them nothing but teenage crushes. It's the same way that Harry, who had been liking Cho ever since third year was totally turned off from her by the end of OOTP. I'm not saying her feelings are siblingish just yet, but she acts toward Harry very much like she does toward her brothers now and so I'm saying she probably has accepted him as a part of the family in a way. She never can have true sibling feelings toward him because they simply aren't siblings.

Now, addressing an earlier point of yours.

But Hermione didn't show any jealousy toward Cho either. In fact, she was trying to hook them up. Shipper point? You're losing me. ;)

I know you disagree with our interpretation, but we believe Hermione did show jealousy toward Cho, our main example being when she learned that Harry and Cho kissed with all those beautiful descriptions of being vague, forwning, distant, brisk, etc. and another significant example being where she got a "bright" voice when asking about Harry's date after Harry turned up early and without Cho for the interview and had Cho pass him straight and sit with her back to him.

You're right. I do disagree. Fo shizzie, know? :p

Nice posts there and welcome back to Sirius 83 and Perdita! Nice posts also go out to Turambar and Fp. And the sympathy award goes to Fairydust who has to read Grapes of Wrath when we all know that she would rather be rereading any Harry Potter book at all :)

And certainly out to Nia,

I see you long for the rush of battle, the clash of swords, the heft of a six-shooter… I’m sorry, but I really don’t make a very good huckleberry. I’d much rather ponder the esoteric. I would never have made it in Tombstone, Arizona, even as the local school ma’am.

Don't sell yourself short. That was some pretty good shooting there Tex!!!

Cheers!

Oh yeah, I forgot. :welcome: to all newbies. I know there is one but I can't remember your name. sorry. so if you're the newbie, welcome.

Oh no, Hawk92, I'm actually reading "Grapes of Wrath" for fun. I'm actually on a John Steinbeck craze right now and can hardly wait to finish Grapes because I want to start on "East of Eden".

Thanks for answering that, Sirius. :) And I should add that Cho didn't see anything in Harry's relationship with Ginny to worry about either.

Harry is in an lonely mood right now and i just don't see how he could bring himself to think about girls stuff now that he knows what he knows, not to mention the death of Sirius (man he was so great !)

I however think harry need some support ( i mean the kind of support that a girl friends can bring you !) and i'm totally support the Ginny/Harry ship, but i do think that the girl who wants him will have to do the first step ! (who ever it is !),and even in that case maybe harry will be afraid to date someone because of voldemort (i mean he already try to lure harry out of school with sirius !) who knows what he can do with someone harry's in love with !

I see you long for the rush of battle, the clash of swords, the heft of a six-shooter… I’m sorry, but I really don’t make a very good huckleberry. I’d much rather ponder the esoteric. I would never have made it in Tombstone, Arizona, even as the local school ma’am.

I on the other hand do heft a six shooter, therefore

I'm your huckleberry

But my view is that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - it's a duck.

Yet does Hr/R walk like a duck, look like a duck, and quack like a duck? Lets take a look shall we.

Walk like a duck

Walking. Placing one foot in front of the other. So simple and yet how often do we trip on our own feet. Walking is also quite logical. Place one foot in front of the other and you will eventually reach your destination. Not the fastest way of getting from point A to B, but one of the most common.

This leads us to the conclusion of why one would continue to insist that the Yule Ball was positive proof, despite the reasonable doubt. This provides step one. Now in OotP we have Krum’s name mentioned twice. This is commonly cited by Hr/R shippers as proof of Hr/R. Why? Because it gives them their second step and keeps their chain of reasoning intact, despite the fact that it is only one step and they really keep taking one step forward and one back, that however shall be addressed in more detail later on. Without the re-establishment of Ron’s jealousy there is nothing in OotP to support the Hr/R ship. So by going back to the Yule Ball the Hr/R ship can create theories such as Hermione talking to Harry, writing to Krum, but in truth she is thinking about Ron.

Now having already addressed the fact that the ask me first and not as a last resort is highly questionable evidence, part of a partial conversation, Ron’s earlier reference to going with a last resort, Ron’s still treating Hermione as a default (paraphrased here: Harry goes with Ginny and Hermione goes with Ron to the Yule Ball), and the fact that Ron is not upset that Neville asked Hermione and one must seriously question this evidence.

As I have already stated Hr/R returns to this in order to establish their ship in OotP, specifically the referrals to Krum by Hermione. Then the claim is given that Hermione is making sure that Ron really has feelings for her. This however would do tremendous damage to their theory that the Ask me first is positive. If it is a invitation by Hermione and a sign of Hermione liking Ron for more than a friend why would she need to keep revisiting that scene? Since Hermione extended the “invitation” to Ron, Hermione would know and understand the Ron liked her and would feel no need to confirm what she knew to already be true. Therefore there is no second step in OotP for Hr/R. And if there is no second step then one is not walking, hence it doesn’t walk like a duck (one could wonder if it is even standing like a duck at this point).

Look like a duck

Lets look at after the Ask me first comment.

Now as stated this is supposed to be a positive moment towards Hermione liking Ron for more than a friend. This would confirm that Hermione knows that Ron likes her and she likes him back.

Now looking after this what do we see,
*Hermione seeing Krum for a period of six months at least
*Hermione talking about Harry to Krum a lot, despite the fact that Krum is not asking about Harry and becomes jealous about it.
*Hermione kisses Harry after her final conversation in Gof, with Krum.

Having dealt with this numerous times I shall keep this part short but one can say that this certainly does not look like a duck.

Quack like a duck

If this is being used to prove that it is a duck then quacking must be a characteristic known to ducks (a true understatement but I’m taking this step by step). Now having had my logic, understanding of human behavior, vision (tunnel vision), and various other things called into question lets look at some of Hermione’s characteristics:

Hermione is
*an overachiever (ref Harry Potter series books 1-5 emphasis on book 3)
*opinionated (ref Harry Potter series books 1-5)
*able to read between the lines (ref Umbridge speech in OotP, confirmed by McGonagall)
*a quick thinker (ref Harry Potter series books 1-5)
*a logical thinker (ref Harry Potter books 1-5 emphasis on PS/SS dungeon trial)
*able to use clues to solve mysteries (ref Harry Potter books 1-5 emphasis on Cos and the Bastilik)

Now why would Hermione need to revisit the scene of Ron’s jealousy by bringing up Krum and then switching her thinking to Ron? This goes against all of her characteristics and the behaviors that stem from them.

an overachiever

An overachiever such as Hermione would have no need to make Ron jealous again. Over achievers seldom spend time dwelling on what has been. They move on to the next thing. The next achievement. Hermione would have no need to revisit the scene of Ron’s jealousy because she would have already moved on. The need to revisit a scene, if the person views it as positive, is more of a underachiever who needs to revisit and relive past positive experiences. The overachiever moves on quite rapidly.

opinionated

If the ask me first is a invitation to Ron to ask her out and Hermione’s declaration of her feelings for Ron being more than a friend why then does she hesitate to give her opinion after this? She never gives him any further encouragement and does quite the opposite. Also calling to mind that if this is a positive scene it shows that Hermione is aware of both her’s and Ron’s feelings and yet she still sees Krum and still talks about Harry.

able to read between the lines

Now if Hermione can read between the lines then she would have some knowledge of Ron’s feelings for her and yet she does not return or encourage them. Through Gof and OotP.

a quick thinker

Very uncharacteristic of a quick thinker to need so much time to establish that Ron is romantically jealous of her and Krum.

a logical thinker

Having already shown that one step forward and then to keep taking the same step over and over again is more along the lines of marching in place than in getting anywhere. Why would a logical thinker such as Hermione feel the same.

able to use clues to solve a mystery

And yet unable to use the clues to figure out if Ron likes her. Doubtful.

So by combining all of these we see that Hr/R does not walk like a duck, look like a duck, or quack like a duck. So whatever it is, it is not a duck!

Cheers!

:clap: Hawk

Nice post Hawk! :clap:

Thanks for the welcome back too!

Hi GilyAnn,

I hope you don’t mind if I respond only to the parts of your post that pertain to mine, so as to not be redundant with what other posters say.


Perdita: It's very simple. Harry was worried at Hermione's nagging, not because she was nagging, but because he knew that Hermione is right and that he is not.


GilyAnn: This doesn't click me. Harry was annoyed with her nagging that was quite clear. Whether she was right or wrong it was irrelevant.

No, it is relevant. This has been the pattern since GOF, even earlier, possibly. Hermione nags at Harry for not doing the right thing, and he feels guilty. That is why it bothers him, because he feels guilty that he isn’t doing what he should, and Hermione is constantly challenging him to do so.

Example from OOTP, ch. 30 Grawp:
‘You are trying to block your mind, aren’t you?’ said Hermione, lookig beadily at Harry. ‘You are keeping going with you Occlumency?’

‘Of course I am,’ said Harry, trying to sound as though this question was insulting, but not quite meeting her eye. <edited>

He also suspected that part of his mind – the part that often spoke in Hermione’s voice – now felt guilty on the occasions it strayed down that corridor ending in the black door, and sought to wake him before he could reach the journey’s end.

So you see, you can’t say that Hermione being right is irrelevant because her righteousness is what makes Harry feel annoyed. One is the cause of the other, so you can’t disregard any part of it, otherwise your argument is incomplete.


Again by the definitions Ginny is not helping Harry do anything and she is supporting that he doesn't talk to Sirius. Moral support does not require for you to approve or question or do anything. Moral support, being understanding and giving hope to someone is simply sitting down listening to them even though quite possibly you can't do anything for them. Is supporting their emotional side.

I don’t think so, GilyAnn. You are right that moral support is intangible, but you cannot disregard the fact that “moral support” is called “moral” for a reason. If you’re not supporting someone to do the right thing, then you’re egging them on to do the wrong thing. One does not say that Joe gave John moral support when John is about to go rob an old lady of her purse. “Moral support” should be used within the proper context, and in this library scene, it would be inappropriate to characterize what Ginny did as giving Harry moral support.

Yeah but the parameters posted by Grace say that she was supporting his idea of not doing anything. I'm going with your rules. My idea of that scene and what Ginny did is quite diffferent and extremelly clear from any of this.

You’re starting to confuse me here…Grace said that Ginny didn’t plan, but she did help Harry to find a plan. By our rules or not, Ginny did take part in helping Harry get to Umbridge’s fireplace, even though she may not have planned the logistics of that operation.

-----
To Hawk

Thanks for the welcome back.

By the way, how come you were handing out copies of Harry Potter and the Hero Sandwich and you didn't even bother to give some to Mars, Grace, Tina and me?

:rasp:

I think Harry was annoyed at Hermione, wether she was right or not, the reasons are not important. The point is Harry was annoyed by her constantly.
And yes, you defined "moral"...but how can "support" be annoying someone to the point that they can't take it?

:wow: @ Hawk92. That was a brilliant post! You're so busy posting no wonder you neglected to pass the books onto us. You're excused. :p

-----

I think Harry was annoyed at Hermione, wether she was right or not, the reasons are not important. The point is Harry was annoyed by her constantly.
And yes, you defined "moral"...but how can "support" be annoying someone to the point that they can't take it?

Your first point I already addressed, so I'm not going to rehash that again.

Your second point...could you elaborate and provide me with a more definitive context? You seem to be saying one thing, while Gily Ann and I are talking about something different. Thanks.

I think Harry was annoyed at Hermione, wether she was right or not, the reasons are not important. The point is Harry was annoyed by her constantly.
And yes, you defined "moral"...but how can "support" be annoying someone to the point that they can't take it?

That's blowing things quite well out of proportion actually...here's one example that pops instantly to mind that quashes that:

It was the first time she had ever said Voldemort's name, and it was this, more than anything else, that calmed Harry.

Or how about the way that the D.A. Hermione got started for him made Harry feel?

Harry felt as though he were carrying some kind of talisman inside his chest over the following two weeks, a glowing secret that supported him through Umbridge's classes and even made it possible for him to smile blandly as he looked into her horrible bulging eyes.

Harry was at odds with everyone in OOTP. But Hermione wasn't annoying Harry constantly.

To Hawk

Thanks for the welcome back.

By the way, how come you were handing out copies of Harry Potter and the Hero Sandwich and you didn't even bother to give some to Mars, Grace, Tina and me

I did. I posted it earlier. Sirius, Mike, and myself brought the books back to the Harmony. Tina has hers already. You guys took off in that speed boat too fast.

Thanks Turambar, Perdita,and Sirius.

Oh no, Hawk92, I'm actually reading "Grapes of Wrath" for fun. I'm actually on a John Steinbeck craze right now and can hardly wait to finish Grapes because I want to start on "East of Eden".

I don't care much for Steinbeck. I didn't like the Red Pony. Do you often go through periods of reading one author (craze as you call it) and then move on to another?

Cheers!

I never said Hermione never calmed Harry down, but she DID annoy him more times....

Some questions if anyone feels like answering:

1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?
2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?
3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?
4) Is there a sharp left, surprising turn JKR could make (similar to (2) IMO)?


1) I was expecting that Harry would have to get over his crush on Cho before he could move towards a romance with Hermione and I thought the quote that Harry would have a date with a quidditch player related to that. I thought that Ron and Hermione might at the same time have had a date at a ball or go to Hogsmeade on their own. I thought something would come of the Mudblood theme mentioned in books 2 and 4 and that Viktor's invitation to Hermione to go to Bulgaria might have something to do with that.

2) I wasn't expecting Angry Harry but it made sense to me when I read it. I was surprised by Ron's fading into the background, the lessening of tension between R/Hr and the upping in intensity of H/Hr.

3) The ending of the books can be deceiving. Harry was down at the end of GOF, and felt better after a show of support. Then he was angry at the beginning of OOTP. At the end of OOTP he has been through anger and pain and then received a (wider) show of support from the group of six, DA students and Order members.
How does the war actually start with wizards now alerted to Voldie's presence? I think this could mark the return of Viktor and the involvement of foreign wizards. As I've mentioned before Viktor would have an effect on all three of the trio in regard to romantic developments. We see flashes of jealousy in OOTP from Harry over R/Hr spending time together at the beginning, we see suspicion from Ron over H/Hr. If book six is too early for final pairings then how does JKR keep stringing the reader along?

4) The slow buildup of H/Hr has been a consistent thread running through the books. I think that will continue but there could be an interlude between Harry/Cho and Harry/Hermione (book 7). Perhaps Harry could become a bit more socially confident with girls, a bit more like his old man. Viktor's presence would be another way of delaying H/Hr until book 7. Perhaps there will be a falling out between Harry and Ron and the shadow Harrys (Viktor and Neville) could become more important.

Hello ana_banana! You posted this earlier in your post #1323 (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=597656&postcount=1323):

The point is Harry was annoyed by her constantly.

By saying that Harry is constantly annoyed by her, you therefore say that she never calmed Harry down as both cannot take place at the same time. That she constantly annoys Harry also makes it very far fetched that they are friends, although they are best friends. The simple fact is that Harry was easily annoyed by just about everyone in OOTP. Hermione often tried to set him on the right path and so did get on his nerves a lot. However, their friendship did not come off for the worst for it at all. In fact, by Hermione doing what she did, she managed to help Harry in many ways.

Now this also brings me to another point. Harry has had his attitude in this book, and it cost him his godfather. Now look atg the ending of chapter 38 on the train.

Wanting to impress Cho seemed to belong to a past that was no longer quite connected with him.

I believe this line speaks in more ways than one. Harry needs to change his ways to defeat Voldemort. He can no longer be a stubborn boy thinking he's always right. He has to quickly become a young man who knows what he has to do and what needs to be done. The part of him that got annoyed with people trying to tell him contrary to what he wanted to hear will be gone. Instead, he will need to start listening, and who better than someone whose views have never yet failed him? Why not Hermione? JKR has already gone through a lot of pain to show how Hermione is able to get through to Harry.

1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?
I was expecting a date between Cho and Harry as well, for the same reasons you gave, Turambar. I also expected Hermione and Ron to go on a double-date with Cho and Harry, and that’s when Ron would have realized that Hermione doesn’t like him that way.

2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?
Harry’s characterization was expected and I’m very pleased with it. Ron’s characterization was a bit disappointing. I thought that he would be involved in the stories a lot more, but he wasn’t.

3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?
I have no clue at this point.

4) Is there a sharp left, surprising turn JKR could make (similar to (2) IMO)?
I dunno.

So by combining all of these we see that Hr/R does not walk like a duck, look like a duck, or quack like a duck. So whatever it is, it is not a duck!

No it's not a duck at all, it's an Anchor. ;)

Btw, great post Hawk and thanks for the welcome back. A big :tu: to your sig.

1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?

I expected Ginny's crush to fade away and see more H/Hr development, but I half expected some sort of failed R/Hr along the way.


2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?

Not Ron's character, no. I didn't expect the angry Harry though. The lack of R/Hr was a pleasant surprise as I expected some of it to play out more before dying away.


3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?

A second fallout with Ron. I also expect Ron to make a move on Hermione but she won't return the feelings, and I expect to see some Harry development on the H/Hr front.


4) Is there a sharp left, surprising turn JKR could make (similar to (2) IMO)?

I doubt it. She's on the home stretch now and I think that instead of throwing more curveballs at us, she'll be looking at resolving the various plotlines.

Hermione must have noticed that Ron is jealous because she told Harry. If she didn't know, then Harry wouldn't know either. Also, no one is denying that Hermione talked with Ron, but how long was their chat? How deep was their conversation? No one knows. However, from the timing, it seems that she went directly back to the common room after realizing that Harry and Ron had a fight.

What diference does it make how much time she talk with one and the other? Those are silly details that really has no point.

Err...no I didn't. Hermione obviously found out in the morning from Ron. I never said Hermione didn't know that Harry and Ron had a fight, but the fact is, she just found out in the morning, and the fight was the previous night; it is touching to see how immediately she sought after Harry after she found out.

You need to clarify this you are contradicting yourself there either she knew or didn't know.

I'm not talking about her knowing that Ron and Harry fought, but the fact that she knows that Harry doesn't want to eat breakfast in the Great Hall and receive any attention. This is what I was commenting on. This is what shows Hermione's understanding of Harry's character; not the incident itself, but how Harry would react to the incident.

If she already had breakfast and knew that he wasn't there it doesn't require a genious to know that Harry hasn't had breakfast. This shows logic, yes it's nice that she brough him toast.

There are "thousands" of people in the Great Hall for breakfast. I can just totally see a deep heart to heart across the breakfast table along with several hundreds of other students all chattering at the same time. Yeah, compare that to a quiet walk around the lake between Harry and Hermione. Oooh, the contrast...

Why not?! Oh please! If we are going to nitpick let's see Hermione says she SAW Ron at breakfast. Perhaps she talked with him in another place.

She knows that Ron is jealous; she knows why he's jealous, and she sympathizes him, but is there is deep mutual understanding? Nope.

If she knows he is jealous and that she sympathizes with him. Yes she is understanding to Ron! She is justifying on Harry's eyes Ron's reasons to be jealous and angry etc. It's clear to me that she is understanding to Ron.

She seems hopelessly one-sided. She is always by Harry's side; even Colin Creevey notices it. He certainly never saw Ron and Hermione alone together. Furthermore, *Harry* never comments on seeing Ron and Hermione alone together, so that shows that Hermione did spend most of her time with Harry, if not all of her time.

Colin Creevey says that he is rarely seen without the company of Hermione. If I remember correctly they were looking spells for the 1st task. Off course he was with him! Didn't Harry asked for her help on the summoning charm? Yet she knew that Ron missed Harry. Unless Ron told him straight out (which I doubt) that he missed Harry she must have spent enough time with him to know this. Unless we want to make of Hermione a clairyvoyant.

Correction: She sympathizes Ron; of course she does, but to say that she doesn't understand Harry is stretching it quite a bit. Re-read the walk around the lake scene (the *1st* one ^_^) When Harry makes a comment like "You don't--think I entered myself" and Hermione said, "Of course not..." (paraphrasing) How can Hermione not understand Harry? She sees his views, and agrees with him. Although she wants Harry and Ron to reconcile, she *never* tries to make Harry apologize to Ron. So essentially, she doesn't believe Harry is wrong, which leaves Ron. IMO, understanding requires a common ground where people share similar POV's; and in this case, I believe Hermione shares Harry's POV, and not Ron's.

No it isn't stretching it. I've read that part quite a few times and she doesn't show any understanding to Harry. Is one of the scenes in which IMO clearly Hermione failed on Harry's emotional side. She clearly tries for Harry to get with Ron not Ron with Harry. She tells him to ask him for his Owl, she tries for Harry to go to Ron. Not the other way around. IMO Hermione understood and justify in Harry's eyes Ron's views. She knew that Harry had not enter himself and sympathize. But she never understood him.


Oh she "tries" not to take sides, but whose side did she stand by? Harry's.

Don't see this at all.

I see a double standard with R/Hrs and H/Gers.

I see a double standard with H/Hr's.

To the contrary, Hermione doesn't mention Ron often. I believe she only mentioned him two or three times, and one of which was during the first walk around the lake where she told Harry that Ron's angry because he's jealous, and there is another mention of Ron prior to Hogsmeade, but I think it was actually Harry who brought up Ron, not Hermione.

Again above I posted more about this. I see her understanding Ron.

I'm sure we'll be able to find at least one person who doesn't know the Weasleys. Can you say that Harry is not well-known? Can you really state that the Weasleyes are more famous than Harry? Really, you're stretching it quite a bit.


Originally by Gily Ann:
Even Dumbledore says how popular the Weasley's are
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally by Polaris:
Where?

Here is the part:

CoS: Page 335:

"Well you see Lucious,: said Dumbledore, smiling serenely, "the other eleven governors contacted me today. It was somewhat like being caught in a hailstorm of owls, to tell the truth. They'd heard that Arthur Weasley's daughter had been killed and wanted me back here at once."

In here Dumbledore explain that the news of Arthur's Weasley's daughter being killed caused a quite a stir.

CoS Page 336:

"And Imagine" Dumbledore went on. "What might have happend then. . . . The Weasley's are one of our most prominent pure blood families.

He isn't exactly Ron's friend now is he.

No he isn't but he recognizes him.

Err so is Harry. Ron rarely shows up together with Dean and Seamus. Usually it's Harry and Ron; Dean and Seamus.

When was Harry with Dean and Seamus in the GoF fight? I don't have GoF here.

Do you have any evidence to say that these people hang out often with Ron, but not Harry, other than the time Harry and Ron were fighting?

When is Harry again hanging out with Dean or Seamus or anyone else that isn't Ron and Hermione? I think the only other person that he has talked briefly is Neville but very short in PoA.

Err....purely speculation. Furthermore, if Ron is sooo much more popular and well-liked and well-known than Harry, then why in the world does he feel overshadowed and jealous?!

Because he does! Being popular doesn't mean that they don't have flaws.

So far, Hermione has shown no inclination of abandoning her best friends for other people.

That's not abandoning that's making more ample your horizons.

Hermione is most definitely not just any normal teenager. She is more mature and responsible than any other girl her age. Even if she's not ancient, she is still very "old soulish". Besides, you still haven't replied to my request of JKR's quote. If you have the article, would you mind posting it? I would really be interested to see it.

She is more 'responsable' because she is probably and only child. But in many ways Hermione is like every other girl. I will look for it. I don't have it on my file.

If JKR really "chose" to have Hermione understand Ron's feelings rather than just sympathize him, JKR could have made Hermione by Ron's side more often. She could have Hermione mention Ron incessantly to Harry. She could've made Harry comment on seeing Ron and Hermione together, chattering or even bickering. But JKR didn't. Not once did JKR ever mention Harry or anyone else see Ron and Hermione together.

What was the point in all that? Isn't this Harry's point of view? Aren't they looking for hexes in the library?

I agree that Harry needs someone more adult and older to listen to him. Hermione is his best friend, but she is also within the trio. It would be extremely difficult to complain about another mutual friend to your best friend. However, I believe that Harry also need people to tell him what to do. In the dragon task, for example, Harry owled Sirius to consult with him about the dragon. Harry is strong and independent, but he is also very rash and reckless, which would be why he needs someone more rational to guide him, which, to me, would be Hermione.

I think that Harry needs that people (including Dumbledore) gets off his life. Telling him what to do won't help him, it will harm more. Like it did in OoP. He needs to grow up on his own and on his terms. Telling a person constantly what to do and where to go is the easiest way of harming them. They never learn to do things on their own and to be themselves. IMO

He needed both emotional and technical support. Hermione supplied both of them. The technical support Hermione gave him is undeniable. She helps him prefect the accio charm which not only got him past the dragon, but it later also safed his life. The emotional support Hermione gave him is more profound. Just by believing him him, without question or doubt, is a powerful emotional support in it self. In OotP, Hermione further improved her technical and emotional support to Harry.

Thechnical support yes. Being a friend by believing in him yes. Emotional support I have not seen Hermione in that area with Harry.

I believe that Ron and Hermione are there to support Harry, and should be there to support him; however, as we see in GoF, Ron clearly fails in the "support". In that period, Hermione took over and supplied both technical and emotional support to Harry.

Just a question doesn't OoP count. IMO Ron provided to Harry a lot of support in that time. In fact I have always seen Ron provided a lot of support to Harry. Even in GoF.

Quote?? Evidence? Where does it say that Hermione's way doesn't appeal to Harry? Why are they friends then if Harry can't stand Hermione? And you accuse of us H/Hr shippers for underminding R/Hr friendship, you should really make sure that you don't make the same mistakes.

In OoP Harry was annoyed with Hermione more times than usual. Several times in OoP. I have always said that OoP meant a some rifts in the H/Hr friendship and they do need a lot of healing. They are still good friends.

So, Harry and Ron's fight certainly didn't last solely for one night. There was tension between Harry and Ron for a long time, so what's Ginny's excuse for not comforting her the guy she was so "languishly" in love with? Oh that's right. Her excuse is JKR. Afterall, JKR chose to write Hermione that way, not Ginny.

Why should she go to comfort him? Why must she be on his side comforting him? Hermione is Harry's friend. That's why she is there. Ginny at that point wasn't Harry's friend.

Exactly. JKR certainly didn't

And I'm very happy that she didn't!

At that point, Harry and Ginny can only be counted as aquaintances, and Hermione and Ginny might be a little more, but we didn't have enough evidence to think that they were close friends in GoF or any of the previous books.

IYO to me I saw Hermione and Ginny's friendship probably coming ever since PoA.

Oh there are many real friendships, but Harry and Hermione's certainly is one of the brightest among them.

:shrug: They are nice friends but the brightest. . .

I didn't mean your height.

Oh but I did!

Oh really? So what you're saying is that literature can not be unique or original anymore and that every author just copies some other authors ideas, themes, and plot. You know, I don't know if you've ever heard of something called copyright. It is actually very useful to prevent others from plagarizing your work...I'm sure Jane Austen had some sort of patent...Poor JKR, I guess she'll just have to "copy" from another author's work...afterall, she can't possibly have her own ideas and style of writing now can she.

Your writting style is unique they way things are portrait is Unique the names are probably Unique. But certainly all general plot lines have done. Hero gets hero (girl), hero gets the girl, hero alone, hero the girl dies. All couples in the HP world are cliche because all have been done over and over, and over.

Gily Ann

Originally by Gily Ann:
Even Dumbledore says how popular the Weasley's are

Here is the part:

CoS: Page 335:

"Well you see Lucious,: said Dumbledore, smiling serenely, "the other eleven governors contacted me today. It was somewhat like being caught in a hailstorm of owls, to tell the truth. They'd heard that Arthur Weasley's daughter had been killed and wanted me back here at once."

In here Dumbledore explain that the news of Arthur's Weasley's daughter being killed caused a quite a stir.

CoS Page 336:

"And Imagine" Dumbledore went on. "What might have happend then. . . . The Weasley's are one of our most prominent pure blood families.



popular: liked or enjoyed by many people

prominent: important, well-known

Isn't popular and prominent different? Prominent at times can sure imply popularity but they are totally different things. So the interpretation in the context of what DD is saying is not that they are popular in the extract from the text you provided (though the Weasley's are popular) but prominent. There is a difference.

Anyway back to lurking, great posts by everyone, especially hawk on the previous page.

Cheers! ;)

Great post Hawk, Sirius (and welcome back), Nia, Turambar, Perdita (thank you) and Polaris (uhm my heroin)

I tell you why JKR didn't write that Ginny gave Harry a gift. Because It wasn't important for the plot. Like it wasn't important for the plot if he get something from the twins.
This say Dobby is important in comparing to Kreacher and SPEW. Ron is important because he is Harrys best friend. Mr and Mrs Weasley are important because they said he is as good as a son for them. Sirius and Remus are important because they remember at Harrys real family. Tonks is it because she will replace at some points Remus because he will replace Sirius.
And Hermione is it because of our ships and her friendship with Harry. But Ginny isn't that important. Not yet maybe after book6 but not yet.

1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?
I didn't expect H/C happen. More that they sort this feelings in a different wayout like uncomfortable around Cho because off Cedric. I thought it would be bigger step for Harry to get along with her. But still he was annoyed by her, right?! About R/Hr I really thought after I did accept the possible (I know I did debatte Rons feelings in book5 thread 6 and was still thinking they aren't exist) that Ron has some kind off feelings for Hermione and that she probably know them, they did become akward or go out just something what let think R/Hr is possible. Well all this didn't happen. So I'm once more back to my thinking Ron don't even like Hermione that much in this way.

2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?
By Harry not because I did expect he should become a little bit angry. I mean his live is a mess and Voldi's comeback don't do him any favor. But by Ron I was very surprised. I really hoped that after 4 books where Hermione's character was growing constantly but Ron's not that Ron would be more in book5. I guess this was my well wishing for Ron because after book4 was it to expect Ron makes a step back and not forward. About R/Hr I was pleased surprise because I couldn't imagine how this should work. No idea, really. Because I never saw any feelings from Hermione forward Ron. Yeah accepting that Ron might have something for her is one thing but thinking she likes him back? Is kinda ask much for my taste. Though I was surprised how much Hermiones respect did sink in OotP for Ron. I mean she calls him names, say if he is rude to her than is on he normal mode, tells him to shut up. This reminds me kinda at my doing with some friend of mine who I did suspect he has a thing for me I didn't like this imagination not at all. Thats probably why I was kinda rude or **** honest to him.

3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?
I can even imagine a nice scene and it did fit for R/Hr. Let say Seamus came to Hermione and Ron told her "Ron has to tell you something!" Hermione looks surprised to Ron :huh: "Uhm, ahm I don't know what you talking about!" said Ron uncomfortable. "Come one tell her!" Seamus tried to encourage him. "What does he mean?" Hermione asked briskly. "Well, I don't know.." Ron shrugged. "Aww Ron is to shy to tell you he likes you. You know like a girl.." Seamus smiled proudly. Hermione frowned at Ron. "You don't like me, are you?" Ron started to blush furiously "Uhm..No, off course not. You know me I wouldn't like my friend and all. I mean we're friends." "Good to know." she said happily.

Ah possible? I think it is very possible. I mean Hermione is kinda unsensitive if its comes to Ron.

Something like this scene and than that H/Hr starts to grow a little bit. Just let say at the end of book6 H/Hr is going to happen. Off course this R/Hr did happen at the beginning or in the middle.


4) Is there a sharp left, surprising turn JKR could make (similar to (2) IMO)?
I don't think so. Not really. But I never know..
Because I think now she did bring the characters into the right possition. Maybe If I'm for R/Hr I think than a big surprise will happen.


As for that Hermione does annoy Harry. You know what I wonder does any 14 or 15 year old girl not annoy an other 14 or 15 year old boy? As I know at this age are the girls or boys very annoyed by each other thats why they date older girls. Than suddenly does this change with the age of 16. Oh I know what I'm talking about this calls puberty. Its a nasty thing you hate in one moment someone and in the other you dearly love him. The most annoying girl will turn out as your love interess in the next year. Thats the nasty part of this. That say Ron thinks of Luna as an annoying girl, somehow weird girl its believable if he comes back from summer and think she is the best thing he could meet.
This counts off course for Harry in OotP was he at times annoyed by Hermione did try to avoid her this can change very much after the summer. So that she isn't anymore that annoying or not at all annoying.
And to Ginny it wouldn't surprise me if she turns in book6 out as a girl which goes on your nervs. Not all girls have such a low flow of puberty like Hermione and Ginny has enough temperament to be really like such a girl.
Thats probably the reason why Hermione did snap or bicker with Ron, this calls puberty. As I know wasn't the bickering in PS/SS or COS that high like in POA or GoF. Now its cools down and it will cool more down. She reach the end off this time. This say in book6 we will see a Hermione which isn't describe as someone with a negate voice. Sometimes I wonder does R/hr forget this little detail if they say H/Hr don't fit because she mothers Harry around. You know girls do this in this age.

Walk like a duck

This leads us to the conclusion of why one would continue to insist that the Yule Ball was positive proof, despite the reasonable doubt. This provides step one. Now in OotP we have Krum’s name mentioned twice. This is commonly cited by Hr/R shippers as proof of Hr/R. <snipped for brevity>
You have used the phrase 'positive proof'. I have always avoided using the word 'proof' - clearly there is no proof of anything as yet. I use the word evidence, and when I use the phrase positive evidence, what I mean by that is evidence which gives credence to an idea, as opposed to negative evidence which seeks to deny a particular idea, despite there being reasonable evidence for the idea. (Slothful induction (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/sloth.htm)). The Yule Ball gives a reasonable degree of positive evidence from which one may infer the possibility of R/Hr

Now having already addressed the fact that the ask me first and not as a last resort is highly questionable evidence, part of a partial conversation, Ron’s earlier reference to going with a last resort, Ron’s still treating Hermione as a default (paraphrased here: Harry goes with Ginny and Hermione goes with Ron to the Yule Ball), and the fact that Ron is not upset that Neville asked Hermione and one must seriously question this evidence.
It is not unreasonable to assume, therefore that the Yule Ball was a watershed moment for Ron. Generally, the Yule Ball/Yule Brawl is more Hr->R than R->Hr.

As I have already stated Hr/R returns to this in order to establish their ship in OotP, specifically the referrals to Krum by Hermione. Then the claim is given that Hermione is making sure that Ron really has feelings for her. This however would do tremendous damage to their theory that the Ask me first is positive. If it is a invitation by Hermione and a sign of Hermione liking Ron for more than a friend why would she need to keep revisiting that scene? Since Hermione extended the “invitation” to Ron, Hermione would know and understand the Ron liked her and would feel no need to confirm what she knew to already be true. Therefore there is no second step in OotP for Hr/R. And if there is no second step then one is not walking, hence it doesn’t walk like a duck (one could wonder if it is even standing like a duck at this point).
She doesn't know it to be true. Hence the '...worse than Ron....no you're not remark'. This is a clear and direct reference back to the Yule Ball; Hermione is able to relate Cho's exasperation at Harry, with her own exasperation at Ron in the sense that Harry was unable to identify Cho's hints and Ron has been unable to identify Hermione's hints.

Look like a duck

Lets look at after the Ask me first comment.

Now as stated this is supposed to be a positive moment towards Hermione liking Ron for more than a friend. This would confirm that Hermione knows that Ron likes her and she likes him back.
That is a Post Hoc fallacy. The first does not in any way confirm the second. Which makes the following points irrelivent in the above context:

Now looking after this what do we see,
*Hermione seeing Krum for a period of six months at least
*Hermione talking about Harry to Krum a lot, despite the fact that Krum is not asking about Harry and becomes jealous about it.
*Hermione kisses Harry after her final conversation in Gof, with Krum.
I would ask though - do you list these as positive H/Hr arguments, or negative R/Hr arguments?


Quack like a duck

<snipped>
Hermione is
<snipped>

an overachiever

An overachiever such as Hermione would have no need to make Ron jealous again. Over achievers seldom spend time dwelling on what has been. They move on to the next thing. The next achievement. Hermione would have no need to revisit the scene of Ron’s jealousy because she would have already moved on. The need to revisit a scene, if the person views it as positive, is more of a underachiever who needs to revisit and relive past positive experiences. The overachiever moves on quite rapidly.
Although clearly she hasn't achieved her objective.

opinionated

If the ask me first is a invitation to Ron to ask her out and Hermione’s declaration of her feelings for Ron being more than a friend why then does she hesitate to give her opinion after this? She never gives him any further encouragement and does quite the opposite. Also calling to mind that if this is a positive scene it shows that Hermione is aware of both her’s and Ron’s feelings and yet she still sees Krum and still talks about Harry.
She has placed the ball firmly in Ron's court.

able to read between the lines

Now if Hermione can read between the lines then she would have some knowledge of Ron’s feelings for her and yet she does not return or encourage them. Through Gof and OotP.
But she does despair at Ron's lack of action.

a quick thinker

Very uncharacteristic of a quick thinker to need so much time to establish that Ron is romantically jealous of her and Krum.

a logical thinker

Having already shown that one step forward and then to keep taking the same step over and over again is more along the lines of marching in place than in getting anywhere. Why would a logical thinker such as Hermione feel the same.

able to use clues to solve a mystery

And yet unable to use the clues to figure out if Ron likes her. Doubtful.
And she is also a young human being with all the fallabilities and insecurities that is part of the human psychocological make up. Honestly, Hawk, you make Hermione out to be an automaton - a logic machine with no humanity.

'Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit'

i just read todays paper and rupert grint(plays ron) said him and hermy fall in love in poa and then fall out over all the time she spends with her cat and as this hast happend in the books yet i think this is going to happen in book 6 as it would be stupid to have in the film and not in the books at a later date

i just read todays paper and rupert grint(plays ron) said him and hermy fall in love in poa and then fall out over all the time she spends with her cat and as this hast happend in the books yet i think this is going to happen in book 6 as it would be stupid to have in the film and not in the books at a later date


Which paper source is it from? If it was, then I'm sure it would of been on a HP site by now. Anyway if this is true, which I doubt, then if it happens in book 6 & 7 we can assume that R/Hr go out for a short period of time, personalities clash it and leads to more arguments, leads to relationship not working out, leads to breakup and leads to back to being friends. I remember reading a story recently that JKR was not happy with Cauron with HP3 and there was too much foreshadowing for book 6 in the movie, so that might add some credability to the source, if that foreshadowing was the romance 'sub-plot'.

1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?

I was actually expecting R/Hr after I read GOF, was a R/Hr shipper after I read GOF. It was my first read and then after reading the H/Hr file everything made much more sense and logic and I changed sides but I still expected R/Hr to happen. I didn't really expect anything between H/C. Actually I wasn't expecting anything really, wasn't really into the shipping stuff.

2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?

Harry's definately did on first read, but after the 2nd and 3rd read it made much more justified for him to be angry, and it was good to have a change of Harry's personality for the length of a book. Ron I didn't expect either, he seems less in the 'picture' due to other activities seperating the two though. I'd rather see more of Ron in the picture though, I enjoy his character except when becomes a a little too down on self-esteem, or when he argues with Hermione.

3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?

Not too sure about this one. Continued development of the H/Hr relationship bringing them even more closer. At this point I can't see Hermione reciprocating Ron's feelings. Ginny is still an unknown quantity but if she continues to see Michael Corner I doubt there will be much hope for a H/G relationship. I can see Luna taking more interest in Ron than what we saw in OOTP, the question is if Ron reciprocates this or not. Probably see some of Cho, but she'll prob. fade out and remain Harry's friend.

I just thought of something. This may be a bit far-fetched but maybe Cho becoming Harry's friend could knock some sense into him about Hermione. Cho sees something between Harry and Hermione so why couldn't she? Thats if she changes a little and gets over her jealously.

Anyway back to lurking again...

This is what the article (Daily Star) says:
The makers of the next Harry Potter movie have sexed up the plot by making Ron and Hermione fall in love.

Fans of the hit wizard saga will be shocked with the Prisoner of Azkaban romance - because it wasn't in the book.

And the new film sees the two young lovebirds rowing while Hermione lavishes attention on her new pet cat.

Rupert Grint, who plays Ron revealed: 'We get on well to begin with, but then the cat comes along and we start arguing all the time'.

A film insider said: 'We felt the romance adds a bit of drama, but there aren't any real love scenes'.
Personally, I'm not happy that it should have happened in the PoA movie as it hasn't happened in the books yet, but it does appear to be a continuation of the theme started at the end of CoS (movie). And I have to wonder how the Yule Ball scene will be dealt with in GoF; perhaps this will be cut completely.

However if all this is true, it must surely be on the cards for the books. There's no way JK would have agreed otherwise.

Just a glimmer of hope for H/Hr's - the article states that the release date for PoA is November 15.

Let it not be said that I'm not fair!

The makers of the next Harry Potter movie have sexed up the plot by making Ron and Hermione fall in love.

Fans of the hit wizard saga will be shocked with the Prisoner of Azkaban romance - because it wasn't in the book.

And the new film sees the two young lovebirds rowing while Hermione lavishes attention on her new pet cat.

Rupert Grint, who plays Ron revealed: 'We get on well to begin with, but then the cat comes along and we start arguing all the time'.

A film insider said: 'We felt the romance adds a bit of drama, but there aren't any real love scenes'.

:rotfl: Thats good, very good. Wow this did hit me unprepared but Its funny, really funny. If thats true I can already see how R/Hr starts to celebrate and I celebrate with because this **** cat did mess R/Hr absolut up :rotfl: This say everything did already happen this explains a lot why in OotP isn't anything of that. How could I have miss this. :rotfl:

Great I love this article especially that the movie comes out this year... :D

:rotfl: Thats good, very good. Wow this did hit me unprepared but Its funny, really funny. If thats true I can already see how R/Hr starts to celebrate and I celebrate with because this **** cat did mess R/Hr absolut up :rotfl: This say everything did already happen this explains a lot why in OotP isn't anything of that. How could I have miss this. :rotfl:

Great I love this article especially that the movie comes out this year... :D
Oi - I'm not celebrating. I don't like it any more than you do.

The cat was indeed a source of conflict between them. One can only imagine how the reconciliation which eventually came will be depicted in the film seeing that they are already b/f & g/f.

popular: liked or enjoyed by many people

prominent: important, well-known

Isn't popular and prominent different? Prominent at times can sure imply popularity but they are totally different things. So the interpretation in the context of what DD is saying is not that they are popular in the extract from the text you provided (though the Weasley's are popular) but prominent. There is a difference.

Anyway back to lurking, great posts by everyone, especially hawk on the previous page.

Cheers! ;)


:shrug: :no: Well! here we are nitpicking again. Harry isn't popular either. He is important and well known. Come on! You know what I mean!

Gily Ann

Edit: In the beginning of PoA Ron and Hermione were fairywell it was the cat - rat thing that got things messy. I always took that quote of between the three as H/Hr platonic and R/Hr non platonic romantic tension.

This is what the article (Daily Star) says:
The makers of the next Harry Potter movie have sexed up the plot by making Ron and Hermione fall in love.

Fans of the hit wizard saga will be shocked with the Prisoner of Azkaban romance - because it wasn't in the book.

And the new film sees the two young lovebirds rowing while Hermione lavishes attention on her new pet cat.

Rupert Grint, who plays Ron revealed: 'We get on well to begin with, but then the cat comes along and we start arguing all the time'.

A film insider said: 'We felt the romance adds a bit of drama, but there aren't any real love scenes'.
Personally, I'm not happy that it should have happened in the PoA movie as it hasn't happened in the books yet, but it does appear to be a continuation of the theme started at the end of CoS (movie). And I have to wonder how the Yule Ball scene will be dealt with in GoF; perhaps this will be cut completely.

However if all this is true, it must surely be on the cards for the books. There's no way JK would have agreed otherwise.

Just a glimmer of hope for H/Hr's - the article states that the release date for PoA is November 15.

Let it not be said that I'm not fair!

'N here I thought that when JKR said that CoS introduced feelings between the three of them she was refering to Harry, Ron and Hermione. Who'd a thunk she really meant Ron Hermione and Crookshanks! :rotfl:

btw I tried to look for the 'Daily Star' on the web, is it the one that reads "Beer Won't Give You A Belly" on the front cover?

Erica

Oi - I'm not celebrating. I don't like it any more than you do.

This was more ironic, sarcastic ironic. Because I doubt they do that this would destroy my red hearing of R/Hr and make R/Hr reality but not just that this mean it did already happen. So I would start to wonder did R/hr sink after PoA before it was even stated in GoF as possible? Wow, No wonder Ron dislike crookshanks and that Harry like this cat in OotP :elaugh:

I'm seriously doubting the credibility of this article. Remember all script changes are passed through JKR and she does not allow them to actually take courses of action that depict events that have not happened in the book. The release date of November 15th also smells very fishy.

I'll believe this article when credible sources come out with it, but in the meantime I'm just finding it incredibly funny that Crookshanks destroyed the relationship. :lol:

Posted by Daveydee,
I feel that the starting point should be the raw materials, i.e. the positive evidence. From that we can then ascertain if a theme or themes is /are developing and can ultimately determine the conceptual message JK is trying to convey. I did once feel that the romantic sub-plot would be an aside to the main plot, but having considered further (and in no small part as a result of these debates) I no longer believe that to be the case. I say sub-plot. That is a great mistake. We should be talking about sub-plots, plural.

It is very easy sometimes to miss the big picture when stratifying a work of literature into main plots and sub plots, positive and inferred evidence, especially with JKR. I think the first thing I noticed about JKR’s writing was the brevity of her words. Unlike most writers, especially of fantasy, who toss away words and conversations and characters’ observations for the sake of begging the reader to see their created world as they do, Rowling does not. We are compelled to see every word, phrase and conversation as meaningful and mutually dependent. Everything in her writing overlaps, intertwines and is connected in some manner. I am certain you have noticed how the mysteries unfold. One is barely introduced and developed before one or two or even three more have already come to prominence. The themes have emerged from each other in a similar manner, from the simplistic ‘abused boy escapes his wretched relatives and goes away to wizarding school’ at the beginning of PS/SS to the thematic complexity of Order of the Phoenix. But what binds the whole together? I think it is love, in all of its many manifestations. This is why, I believe, Flying Phoenix always insists that love is the main plot.

In JKR’s world, as in our own, our ability to love, to feel compassion, friendship, caring defines our humanity. Voldemort, the dastardly villain, is distinguished from other characters by his distinct inability to comprehend love. And how are his Death Eaters able to carry out his horrific orders and perform the Unforgivables? By casting aside love and compassion. In OoP, Cornelius Fudge becomes a villain as he elevates position and power over compassion for the inhabitants of the Wizarding World, to the point of sacrificing an innocent boy.
‘Love’ literally permeates the books—all kinds of love, from the poignant sacrificial love of Lily Potter, to Harry’s love of flying. Hard evidence will be difficult to come by since JKR is not following C.S. Lewis’ allegorical hard lines by setting out to be deliberately didactic. (Thank goodness) There is, however, a distinct pattern to her writing that is becoming more pronounced as the series progresses, and the romantic elements, as you already noted, are fast emerging from this pattern, rather than standing distinct and apart.

Posted Originally by Daveydee:
I see no inherent contradiction in depicting a R/Hr pairing together with a meaningful H/? pairing to achieve the sort of conclusion that we both wish to see. Simply, it doesn't need to be Hermione. You are aware of my previous post concerning Luna; you will also be aware of my earlier post which outlines how I see R/Hr as mirroring the other themes of the series - unity, reconcliation and tolerance. Those two posts take care of both R/Hr and H/?.

Except, that on every single occasion where unity was required, Ron and Hermione, put aside their enormous differences and work together to achieve a common goal. The fact that Hermione is muggleborn is not an issue between them. The whole gist of Dumbledore’s speech at the end of GoF is that ‘although we are different, when a common problem arises, we need to put aside our differences and pool or talents for the good of everyone.’ Ron and Hermione already do that, and do it very well. They even stop arguing whenever Harry asks them to. However, unless one, or both of them undergo a dramatic paradigm shift, they will always be at odds with each other. It doesn’t mean they can’t love each other or care about each other. But IMO it does mean they cannot form a long-term lasting exclusive partnership because they are focused on conflicting objectives.

The ongoing point of conflict is that Ron assumes the rightness of certain things because they are a part of who he is—the world as he knows it. One cannot see the big picture while standing smack in the middle of the canvas. Hermione, as an outsider, perceives the Wizarding World differently and perhaps much more accurately. The funny thing about Ron is that even when he is allowed to see things as they are, his preconceptions often cloud his thinking. But I truly believe Ron to be a good character. Good people don’t always do the good and right thing.

I see Harry and Hermione’s connection, because there is something extraordinary about the way they perceive each other. It is a bond that goes way beyond simple friendship. It is a contiguous pattern of action and interaction that have led me to the way I ship, not any particular preference one way or another. There is something, I believe very, very important about Harry and Hermione’s relationship, and it has nothing to do with the basic exposition of the story. It has to do with the over arching theme of love, and its importance to Harry’s survival as well as the survival of their world. If I could see these patterns between any of the other characters; that would be the way I’d ship. It is my opinion that the H/Hr relationship is completely integrated into the network of themes which are all growing towards whatever JKR is saying about the profound redemptive and restorative and vitalizing powers of love, whether or not she pairs them romantically at the end or not.


At this point, I do not see Luna Lovegood as Harry’s ultimate love interest in spite of her very intriguing name. She appears to be, at least from my POV, a wayside assistant character, much like Tom Bombadil in LOTR who we initially perceive as quite the eccentric, but who is later revealed to have extraordinary power and insight. It was at once funny and profound that when all the other children are holding onto the thestrals for dear life, Luna is calmly riding sidesaddle? LOL I’ve noticed several other parallels to Tom and Luna including the fact that she appears to be rather detached from all the talk of war. The Quibbler interview with Harry seems not to have had as much meaning to her as the fact that the proceeds from its sale afford her and her father the means to conduct another of their strange expeditions. Luna is an enigma, a riddle, if you will. She eschews materialism and popularity in pursuit of the arcane. I, of course cannot prove this at all, but I believe that Luna was the one to rewrite the “Weasly is Our King” song and that, Like Bombadil, the song had magical properties to bring about the desired effect. I shall be watching this character very carefully.


I also cannot see that JKR would drag Harry through ten years of abuse at home, seven years of hell at school then kill him off through a deadly curse or suicide. Even a noble sacrifice, which would give philosophers lots to ponder, would ultimately be unsatisfactory for the rest of us. There is absolutely nothing JKR could write that would make me believe in the rightness of Harry’s death at such a young age. It would, quite simply be the easy way out for both the writer and the character, and I cannot buy it. We are living in a world where death, even of the very young, is trivialized, or worse, glorified. The easy, cop-out way to end would be with death and mourning and some cornball platitudes about a new day. (gag) Much, much, much more difficult would be to focus on life and the incomprehensible power of love in a meaningful, non-sentimental way.


Cheers,
Nia

Well, after some kind off air. I'm back. I'm still laughing but I do my best to be serious now.
Because my point is serious. Its why Its Hermione? I did debatte this before and I do it again. Its all settled in PS/SS. If you like in this books is written the beginning and the end of this serie. Though without the 6 other books it doesen't make any sense. Not really.
Its fastinating that the thinnest book has the importants images in it. Off course I'm speaking from the Halloween scene, Mirror-scene and Great-wizard speech. In the background we have still two interesting sentence by DD first " Not dwell in our dreams" and "Stand up against our friends". All together this is how and why Hermione comes into this.
First Hermione becomes with Harry friend at the exact same day as his parents did die only 10 years before this is foreshadowing. I called it "Love lost, love found" The next thing is the mirror-scene. We get what Harrys deepest desire are: Is to beloved. Thats why a family is so incredible important. DD comes and tells Harry "Its does no good do dwell on dreams and not to live" thats if you compare this with the Halloween scene interesting. The past 1981 is "dreaming" the present 1991 Halloween is "live". In other words Harrys task in the serie is to accept the past and why his parents died and to live his live this say with Hermione. I know thats sounds far frechted but it has a bottom.

To this comes the last scene with Hermiones speech. She tells him how great he is and that he should be careful. This sounds like that he isn't anymore alone. If you take PS/SS as that as the real key to the whole serie It can only Hermione and no other girl. Its already settled in this small book but only the basis of this story. The story itself we get in the six other books.
Sirius dead let Harry wake up from his dreaming and let him start to live. Thats why the mirror did split. Its the old image of the mirror-scene in PS/SS. This mirror this dream ia no more. Now start Harry to live.

Great post Nia :clap:

Sirius - The date is more than a little fishy; it's just plain wrong.

Nia;

I can't disagree with any of what you say in your post above on a conceptual level. I just cannot see that Hermione is the one.

All that requires a good deal of emotional investment on the part of the reader. Do you not think therefore that given the level of emotional investment required, the author would have made the case for H/Hr a little more self-evident than it so clearly is at present.

Thank you, Flying Phoenix! Very astute ideas :clap: Well done!

The makers of the next Harry Potter movie have sexed up the plot by making Ron and Hermione fall in love.

Fans of the hit wizard saga will be shocked with the Prisoner of Azkaban romance - because it wasn't in the book.

And the new film sees the two young lovebirds rowing while Hermione lavishes attention on her new pet cat.

Rupert Grint, who plays Ron revealed: 'We get on well to begin with, but then the cat comes along and we start arguing all the time'.

A film insider said: 'We felt the romance adds a bit of drama, but there aren't any real love scenes'.

So, now PoA, needs more drama, does it? :lol: Dementors and Sirius Black aren't enough, are they?

EricaM:
'N here I thought that when JKR said that CoS introduced feelings between the three of them she was refering to Harry, Ron and Hermione. Who'd a thunk she really meant Ron Hermione and Crookshanks!
:lol:

I can just see the JKR interview:
Q: Any snogging with Hermione?
A: Do you really think so? (makes face) No, Crookshanks and Ron, I think. That's where the tension is.
:rotfl:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
After composing myself :) ,

Posted by Daveydee:
Nia;

I can't disagree with any of what you say in your post above on a conceptual level. I just cannot see that Hermione is the one.

All that requires a good deal of emotional investment on the part of the reader. Do you not think therefore that given the level of emotional investment required, the author would have made the case for H/Hr a little more self-evident than it so clearly is at present.


Given no startling twists or surprises in her narrative, H/Hr is self-evident to me. Just as some people say they clearly see the Ron and Hermione attachment from Book One, since that is where their ongoing disagreements and this celebrated ‘tension’ began, I see a bond forming that only deepens with each succeeding book in the series. There would have been nothing remotely intriguing about putting the hero and heroine in a childish romance that grows into something profound. In fact, it would have been quite banal.

What makes the romantic element so exciting is that we are on a voyage of discovery with Harry. We, at least at first reading are not allowed to see the deeper connection, because Harry doesn’t see it. He is much too young and inexperienced to understand the true value and meaning of love, and has no parental models to guide him.

Hermione is always there for him, always. Some of us have commented on her unconditional and completely unselfish devotion as being unusual. Others have said it’s only friendship, that’s all. Harry dearly cares for Hermione, yet, he is bedazzled by Cho’s beauty and believes he wants her love, until he sees how unfulfilling and shallow relationship it is. He sees Sirius as the family he lost, yet Sirius sees Harry though James and is openly disappointed that Harry is not more like his father.

Hermione, on the other hand, sees Harry as Just Harry, to refer back to Flying Phoenix’s brilliant post. To her, he is not the boy who lived, or James and Lily’s son or the last person to see Cedric alive, he is just Harry. Hers is the kind of utter love and commitment that is idealized in marriage vows: “For better or worse, for rich or for poorer, in sickness and in health…”

When you stand back from all the plotting structure, you can see that she has always been there, from the time Harry steps onto the magical train. Remember, she comes into Harry and Ron’s compartment first looking for Neville’s toad, then SHE RETURNS for no other reason than ‘people are acting very foolishly, running up and down the corridors.” (notice that she ignores Ron this time and is focused on Harry) Why not go back to her OWN compartment? Then, when they are to board the boats for the trip across the lake, there she is again, in their boat. Later, she is there again trying to nag Harry and Ron into giving up on the wizard’s duel with Malfoy. And, on Halloween, as Flying Phoenix so aptly pins it (10 years to the day of Harry’s parents’ murder) Ron and Harry rescue her from the troll and they all become friends.

Although Ron loves Hermione, he often chides her, often calls her a ‘know-it-all.’ Her brilliance, which so sets her apart, also alienates Hermione from other people ( Ron included) and I feel it quite unlikely that she and Ron would have ever become friends if not for Harry. Unlike Ron, Harry accepts her unconditionally, her bushy hair, the teeth, the hunched shoulders, the bossy, sometimes irritating voice, her cat, Crookshanks, and her political causes. Some people wonder what Hermione gets out of the relationship. My answer would be, total acceptance. (BTW, just because we totally accept someone does not mean that we always agree)

I love how Flying Phoenix describes this scene:

To this comes the last scene with Hermiones speech. She tells him how great he is and that he should be careful. This sounds like that he isn't anymore alone. If you take PS/SS as that as the real key to the whole serie It can only Hermione and no other girl. Its already settled in this small book but only the basis of this story. The story itself we get in the six other books.


People might argue, well, he has Ron and the Weasleys, he has Dumbledore, he had Sirius and still has Hagrid.

In OoP, we saw how each of these connections failed him. Harry was in psychological torment. When no one else could see it, she did. When no one else could help, she did something about it. Not that Ron physically abandoned him, but Ron psychologically abandoned him when he left him to his own decisions in OoP. Ron is a dear friend, but he is obviously not the surrogate brother he appeared to be at the beginning.

Harry is never alone while he has Hermione.

Now, in OoP, she is IN his mind, and she is ON his mind even in the depths of his despair over Sirius.

I especially like Flying Phoenix’s reference to Sirius’ broken mirror:
Sirius dead let Harry wake up from his dreaming and let him start to live. Thats why the mirror did split. Its the old image of the mirror-scene in PS/SS. This mirror this dream ia no more. Now start Harry to live.

Cheers,
Nia

I'm sorry this is off topic. but can anyone give me a link to the new Harmony web site?
Thank you :)

I'm sorry this is off topic. but can anyone give me a link to the new Harmony web site?
Thank you :)

Here it is Symbolic Flight (http://harmony.portkey.org/)

It's really coming along!
Nia

http://harmony.portkey.org :) *waves* I'm the admin of portkey.org :)

**** ^.^ -- I was too late then ^.^

Anyway, Wonderful posting before Nia. :) Very interesting things you said there. Lots of very very humourous posts here :)

When you stand back from all the plotting structure, you can see that she has always been there, from the time Harry steps onto the magical train. Remember, she comes into Harry and Ron’s compartment first looking for Neville’s toad, then SHE RETURNS for no other reason than ‘people are acting very foolishly, running up and down the corridors.” (notice that she ignores Ron this time and is focused on Harry) Why not go back to her OWN compartment? Then, when they are to board the boats for the trip across the lake, there she is again, in their boat. Later, she is there again trying to nag Harry and Ron into giving up on the wizard’s duel with Malfoy. And, on Halloween, as Flying Phoenix so aptly pins it (10 years to the day of Harry’s parents’ murder) Ron and Harry rescue her from the troll and they all become friends
You simply cannot remain so completely detatched from the plotting structure. These stories are very much plot driven. Not every single twist, turn and character placement is a shipping point or even necessarily part of a developing theme. To a considerable extent each of the 5 books is very much a self-contained adventure; each the plots has certain demands of the characters. That must not be overlooked.

You say that you see a growing bond between Harry and Hermione which provides you with the self-evident conclusion that they are ultimately to be romantically paired. I say that I see this growing bond as a natural process which one would expect over the course of 5 years of friendship as each becomes more familiar with the other. I see the same growing bond between Harry and Ron. It's a natural process.

Nor do I see that the fact that this bond is reinforced book-by-book as an exponential development. I refer again to the plot-driven nature of the books and I must make the observation that in this respect they are (and I do not say this disdainfully) very formulaic in nature. So one has to ask the question: Is it development, or is it merely repetition?

On Ron and Hermione. I would be curious to know how you see this playing itself out. Clearly there is a situation there (that you are participating in this debate is recognition of that). Evidently you see no romance. How will JK credibly resolve a situation that she has crafted over the course of 2 or 3 books? Some say it will just fizzle out without further mention, which seems a little unrealistic given the timescale over which JK has evolved the situation. Others say it will culminate in a flat rejection of Ron's advances, which again seems at odds with the timescale with which it has been invested; that could be achieved over the course of 4 - 5 chapters. Still others say that there will be a brief and traumatic fling which will allow the supressed emotions out of their systems, after which Hermione will move on to Harry for the culmination of the series, which, to me is totally unrealistic and destructive.

How do you see it?

I have said this many times, but I don't believe JK has written so much about R/Hr to just make it dissappear on the series. I think they will end up together, and I don't see anything romantic on the troll halloween thing...they became friends....friends being the key word.

The makers of the next Harry Potter movie have sexed up the plot by making Ron and Hermione fall in love.

Fans of the hit wizard saga will be shocked with the Prisoner of Azkaban romance - because it wasn't in the book.

And the new film sees the two young lovebirds rowing while Hermione lavishes attention on her new pet cat.

Rupert Grint, who plays Ron revealed: 'We get on well to begin with, but then the cat comes along and we start arguing all the time'.

A film insider said: 'We felt the romance adds a bit of drama, but there aren't any real love scenes'.

*laughing*
yep, that's exactly how I would see them getting along.
arguing and then breaking up over the first thing to come along.

Yeah, but I agree, this may not be real, I mean Nov. 15? Isn't that too soon?

yep, that's exactly how I would see them getting along.
arguing and then breaking up over the first thing to come along.
Well the article doesn't say anything about them breaking up. It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out in the film; equally interesting to see what JK will have to say about it.

Depending on how it plays out, it would certainly have huge implications for one of the two big ships.

Rowling could easily had 1 of 2 plans through out these books with the consept of romantic love.
(1)To show how even to people who care for one another very deaply need to learn to compramise and learn to pick their battles before they can co-exist properly. That love needs maturity to survive. i.e R/hr
Or
(2)In a Emma style fashion that love can be right under your nose all along disguised as a good friendship, and if you don't pay attention you could miss it. i.e h/hr

I personally like door #2. I think peoples ship prefrence can stem from their own opinions and feelings about love.


so i have heard that some people think that ron and hermione are already going out with each other in book 5 but were 2 scared to tell harry. i also think that harry and ginny or harry and luna might get 2 gether.

I have said this many times, but I don't believe JK has written so much about R/Hr to just make it dissappear on the series. I think they will end up together, and I don't see anything romantic on the troll halloween thing...they became friends....friends being the key word.

I know they become friends iin this book. But I don't speaking limited about this book its for all books. I said there is foreshadowing. Why needed it a troll at Halloween to become friend with Hermione though with nobody else is this neccessary. With no other girl they had this kind of trouble like with her. Why not write from the very start they got friend, Why make it so difficult and at the same day as Harry lost his family?
JKR did once say The Halloween day is a very important day in this serie. Always, nearly everything bad does happen at Halloween only that Hermione became they friend was a good thing in four books. In four books were four events at Halloween which were bad only one did turn out to be the best thing. Now JKR herself did make this scene that important. Why did she make the very day as Harry become friend with Hermione that special? Like I say normally bad things happen to Harry at this day but 1991 not. In this year its a good thing. 1992 Chamber is open again, 1993 Black did attack the fat lady, 1994 Harry became the 4th. Champion. 1981 Harrys parents die.

You know there in my country its said "In the darkest night is somewhere a light" This would fit at this. JKR made the moment as Hermione became friend with Harry (I focuse at him because the serie is called HP) that special so you won't forget it. By Ron was it at the train, there wasn't a special scene neccesary. But by Hermione.

If Hermione is just a sidekick and will always be just a sidekick than make this scene no sense. Than is there this little sentence which say:
There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other.

If you look in PS/SS there we have H/Hr adventures: Norbert-scene, Forbidden Forrest, Potion task.

COS:No adventures.

PoA: Through the gass by the Whomping Willow, Time-Turner

GoF: Through Harrys and Rons fight

OotP: Grawp I, Forbidden Forrest, DoM

Now don't you think this sentence is interesting and that H/Hr has the most adventures alone together?

Well anyway hello to everyone, it looks like the regulars are still here which is good, because everyone is so great.

First of all
This is what the article (Daily Star) says:
The makers of the next Harry Potter movie have sexed up the plot by making Ron and Hermione fall in love.
Fans of the hit wizard saga will be shocked with the Prisoner of Azkaban romance - because it wasn't in the book.
And the new film sees the two young lovebirds rowing while Hermione lavishes attention on her new pet cat.
Rupert Grint, who plays Ron revealed: 'We get on well to begin with, but then the cat comes along and we start arguing all the time'.
A film insider said: 'We felt the romance adds a bit of drama, but there aren't any real love scenes'.
Well i must admit i was slightly worried at this article but then Daveydee mentioned it was from the Daily Star, so i began to relax.
The Daily Star is total ****, i don't believe anything that comic book comes up with and neither should you.

I have a question to anyone out there, particularly those who 'ship' a particular way. Regarding ships, do you...
1) favour certain pairings because of what they bring to the 'ultimate struggle' but which arguably hinges on Harry 'getting it' regarding this mysterious power needed to defeat Voldemort],
I believe that Harry and Hermione have this incredibly strong bond between them, whether its romantic at present or not it is very important to the plot because no one else has managed to touch Harry's heart as deeply as Hermione. Some of you will not agree, but you can not deny that she has been there for him through thick and thin, IMO Hermione will follow Harry to the ends of the earth, because she respects him like no one else has ever done and that is definatly good for a relationship, respect!
2) favour certain pairings because the main character a seems best suited for x, therefore y and z are available and seem best suited for b and c --> given [a=Harry],
Oooh i despise maths but i will yes, i only really think Neville and Ginny should get together cause they are what is left, but Ron and Luna i feel there is a lot going on, but then again i don't trust JK with the Luna likes Ron thing because i really feel she's trying to trick us like she is with the Ron likes Hermione thing.
3) favour certain pairings because your favourite character is not the main character, and your interests re: pairing lies with your favourite character with either the main character or some other.
Well Harry's my favourte character and he's the lead, whilst Hermione is the lead female and she's one of my favourites too.

Hey ana_banana, you wrote this a few pages back and i just wanted to pick up on it. Although i believe Perdita answered it superbly.
I think Harry was annoyed at Hermione, wether she was right or not, the reasons are not important. The point is Harry was annoyed by her constantly.
And yes, you defined "moral"...but how can "support" be annoying someone to the point that they can't take it?

I never said Hermione never calmed Harry down, but she DID annoy him more times....

I have said this many times, but I don't believe JK has written so much about R/Hr to just make it dissappear on the series. I think they will end up together, and I don't see anything romantic on the troll halloween thing...they became friends....friends being the key word.
First of all, let me ask you a question, Do you really believe that Hermione has any idea that she's annoying Harry?
The reason i ask this is because i really don't think she does, some people when they really care about someone can act blindly and ignorantly and really not see that all their care and advice is not going down to well. I don't full hardy believe that Harry was getting constantly annoyed at Hermione but even if he was that only merely prooves that Hermione cares about Harry to much to realize what she's doing, she is a smart girl and if she was only hoping to get her point across then she would have figured out that it was annoying and would have used a different approach but she was completely blind to this so she only continued to make him understand.
Also iv seen that many anti-H/Hr shippers have claimed that Hermione was nagging Harry and acting like his mother. Well i was accused the other day of 'mothering' my boyfriend only because i kept telling him that he had to hand in an assignment for one of his classes, i don't see my constant nagging as 'mothering' though i merely see it as me looking out for his welfare and careing about him a whole lot. but then i guess there isn't to much of a difference between that and what a mother does for her child, so Hermione's 'mothering' shows how much she loves Harry.
and also this
but I don't believe JK has written so much about R/Hr to just make it dissappear on the series.
Well to be honest with you ana banana i really didn't believe that JK would kill off Sirius, she was building his character up quite well and for what? to kill him off at the end, this merely prooves that JK never goes for the expected or believed. she really is quite unpredictable, even her quotes are misleading, before OotP she told us that a fan of Harry's would die, well personally i don't believe Sirius was a 'fan' as such, but if thats how she sees things it kind of makes you want to rethink those other quotes such as 'the answer to whether Hermione likes Ron is in GOF'

1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?
I actually thought R/Hr were going to get together but when they didn't then it kind of made me realize what sort of game JK is playing and so now i don't imagine they will ever get as a couple.
I must admit though i never saw Harry and Cho coming a mile away.
2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?
Very much so, as i said above i expected R/Hr to at least show some feelings for each other, there may be a bit coming from Ron but Hermione no way, her feelings are clearly directed at Harry, and i'm rather suprised that a lot of people just arn't seeing them.
3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?
I imagine Harry will begin to realize he has feelings for Hermione. because there are certainly some there, they are just very hidden.

Now on to Gilyann, hello Gilyann i must admit that you intrigue me sometimes. first of all here is what some other person (i'm sorry i don't know who) posted and afterwards in italics what you posted.

There are "thousands" of people in the Great Hall for breakfast. I can just totally see a deep heart to heart across the breakfast table along with several hundreds of other students all chattering at the same time. Yeah, compare that to a quiet walk around the lake between Harry and Hermione. Oooh, the contrast...

[I]Why not?! Oh please! If we are going to nitpick let's see Hermione says she SAW Ron at breakfast. Perhaps she talked with him in another place.

First things first Gilyann 'nitpicking' is how we get to the bottom of things on this thread, if we didn't 'nitpick' then we'd never get anything done.

She knows that Ron is jealous; she knows why he's jealous, and she sympathizes him, but is there is deep mutual understanding? Nope.

If she knows he is jealous and that she sympathizes with him. Yes she is understanding to Ron! She is justifying on Harry's eyes Ron's reasons to be jealous and angry etc. It's clear to me that she is understanding to Ron.
Hermione does not sympathize with Ron and why should she? Ron is in the wrong here, its hardly Harry's fault that Ron's jealous of him, Hermione is smart enough to know that Ron's jealous and she tells Harry this (who is not so smart enough to know)

Correction: She sympathizes Ron; of course she does, but to say that she doesn't understand Harry is stretching it quite a bit. Re-read the walk around the lake scene (the *1st* one ^_^) When Harry makes a comment like "You don't--think I entered myself" and Hermione said, "Of course not..." (paraphrasing) How can Hermione not understand Harry? She sees his views, and agrees with him. Although she wants Harry and Ron to reconcile, she *never* tries to make Harry apologize to Ron. So essentially, she doesn't believe Harry is wrong, which leaves Ron. IMO, understanding requires a common ground where people share similar POV's; and in this case, I believe Hermione shares Harry's POV, and not Ron's.

No it isn't stretching it. I've read that part quite a few times and she doesn't show any understanding to Harry. Is one of the scenes in which IMO clearly Hermione failed on Harry's emotional side. She clearly tries for Harry to get with Ron not Ron with Harry. She tells him to ask him for his Owl, she tries for Harry to go to Ron. Not the other way around. IMO Hermione understood and justify in Harry's eyes Ron's views. She knew that Harry had not enter himself and sympathize. But she never understood him.
Gilyann i cannot in the slightest see your view as correct, you said you read that scene quite a few times, well you need to read it again girl, because you have not got that scene, i'm sorry to be blunt with you but how can you say that Hermione doesn't understand Harry when she stands there and excepts his story with no argument, she believes him that he didn't put his name in the GOF, and thats it. The understanding is there if it weren't then she would be just like Ron.
I'm really beginning to suspect that your just looking for excuses to downplay the Harry and Hermione friendship now with anything you can think of.
Explain to me the part where Hermione is understanding Ron through Harry's eyes, because i'm just not getting it.

Oh she "tries" not to take sides, but whose side did she stand by? Harry's.
Don't see this at all.
Well what i don't see is Hermione understanding Ron's attitude and understanding that he is perfectly jusified.

I see a double standard with R/Hrs and H/Gers.

I see a double standard with H/Hr's.
:wow: really, are you sure?

Edit: In the beginning of PoA Ron and Hermione were fairywell it was the cat - rat thing that got things messy. I always took that quote of between the three as H/Hr platonic and R/Hr non platonic romantic tension.
Well that is being very double standard, but its your opinon and your quite entitled to it.

Thanks
Augurey x

Originally Posted by me, Nia

When you stand back from all the plotting structure, you can see that she has always been there, from the time Harry steps onto the magical train. Remember, she comes into Harry and Ron’s compartment first looking for Neville’s toad, then SHE RETURNS for no other reason than ‘people are acting very foolishly, running up and down the corridors.” (notice that she ignores Ron this time and is focused on Harry) Why not go back to her OWN compartment? Then, when they are to board the boats for the trip across the lake, there she is again, in their boat. Later, she is there again trying to nag Harry and Ron into giving up on the wizard’s duel with Malfoy. And, on Halloween, as Flying Phoenix so aptly pins it (10 years to the day of Harry’s parents’ murder) Ron and Harry rescue her from the troll and they all become friends

Posted by Daveydee:
You simply cannot remain so completely detatched from the plotting structure. These stories are very much plot driven. Not every single twist, turn and character placement is a shipping point or even necessarily part of a developing theme. To a considerable extent each of the 5 books is very much a self-contained adventure; each the plots has certain demands of the characters. That must not be overlooked.


I think you are missing my meaning here. I am not at all detached from the plot. Because JKR spent an inordinate amount of time structuring her septology before she even began to write, the various elements of her work are all so tightly intertwined that it is easy to miss the big picture while attempting to pick through the plot as one would do in a conventional novel. Yes, I agree, each year is in itself an adventure, BUT each year merges into the greater whole and has implications for the entire epic. The plot begins with Book One and will end with Book 7. Why else would JKR refer readers back to CoS for clues just before OoP was to come out? I never meant to imply that a reader should detach from the plot, but only to stand back from it a bit. Like I said before, you cannot possibly see the whole picture when you are standing in the middle of the canvas. Standing back from something in no way means you take your eyes off it.

More than any writer I have read in recent memory, including the classic greats, JKR’s words have meaning. What characters do and say have meaning. JKR does not waste words, whether they be used for exposition of the narrative, for dropping clues or laying red herrings. Every element--- plot, theme, overarching ideas ---is interdependent.

Posted by Daveydee:
Nor do I see that the fact that this bond is reinforced book-by-book as an exponential development. I refer again to the plot-driven nature of the books and I must make the observation that in this respect they are (and I do not say this disdainfully) very formulaic in nature. So one has to ask the question: Is it development, or is it merely repetition?

If one looks at Harry and Hermione’s relationship with a non-judgmental eye, in terms of a totality rather than piecemeal book-by-book, it is quite easy to see an unusual growth and development.

In book one, Hermione accompanies Harry on the adventure with Norbert, into the Dark Forest with Hagrid, Draco and Neville and uses her extraordinary logic to solve the potions puzzle. (Harry has no imput) In CoS, she deliberately breaks school rules to get the ingredients for the PolyJuice Potion. During the scene where she and Ron and Harry are looking over Tom Riddle’s diary, we begin to see that she and Harry have begun to think on the same wavelength. When Hermione mistakenly turns into a cat, Harry is the one who seems to understand her distress. Harry understands at once, Hermione’s scribbles on the torn book page after she is petrified.

In PoA, we see the first example of them working as partners. They discuss the Buckbeak situation while using the time turner, they debate the merits of doing one thing or another then compromise. We see in PoA that they have developed a mutual respect for each other’s ideas and that they honestly listen to each other. We also begin to see another dimension to the relationship; Hermione’s deference to Harry’s defensive skills, as she clings to his arm as they make their way to the shrieking shack. We never see her clinging to Ron or to anyone else.

In GoF, Hermione is the first person Harry thinks about when he needs help with the summoning spell. She is the only person aside from Hagrid and Dumbledore who believe Harry didn’t put his name in the Goblet of Fire.

In OoP, Hermione has anticipated Harry’s rage and has developed a degree of empathy that exceeds Dumbledore’s.
Hermione is the only person Harry will respond to at 12 Grimmauld Place when he feels he is being possessed by Voldemort. Hermione knows Harry needs the release of the DA and a public platform to defend himself to the Wizarding World. Although Harry argues with Hermione a lot in OoP, he is also vehemently defends her against accusations leveled at her by his supposed crush. He knows she is on his side. Her voice is in his subconscious. The DoM scenes have already been extensively discussed in this thread.

Ron and Harry’s friendship was damaged somewhat in GoF and I have noticed something of a growing apart. Ron is unfailingly kind to Harry but I think the Prefect badge opened up a whole new realm of possibilities for him. His successes are no longer pinned to Harry’s. Perhaps you don’t see it, but Ron has pulled himself back a ways from Harry’s problems. He no longer will involve himself and thinks of Hermione’s actions as interfering, even when Harry is clearly in great mental distress.

Posted by Daveydee:
You say that you see a growing bond between Harry and Hermione which provides you with the self-evident conclusion that they are ultimately to be romantically paired.

No, I would never presume to say I knew anything to do with the ships beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is what I said:

‘It is my opinion that the H/Hr relationship is completely integrated into the network of themes which are all growing towards whatever JKR is saying about the profound redemptive and restorative and vitalizing powers of love, whether or not she pairs them romantically at the end or not.’


I do not know what JKR is doing with the Harry/Hermione relationship, but I do know that it goes way beyond normal friendship, even deep friendship and that she has developed it for some purpose. I also know it has been slowly growing over the course of these books so far unbroken. It would be foolish and presumptuous of me to say that I know that Harry and Hermione will end up together, but by standing back a ways, it is possible to see that their relationship goes beyond simple friendship and that it is an integral part of the plot and consequently the series as a whole


Daveydee:
I say that I see this growing bond as a natural process which one would expect over the course of 5 years of friendship as each becomes more familiar with the other. I see the same growing bond between Harry and Ron. It's a natural process.


No, it is not so natural. Kids, especially, grow apart as they grow up, they find new interests. Unless you live in a tiny community where choices are limited, as you change, your friends change. A question for you to ponder? How many of the kids you were close friends with you at eleven are still your close friends?

Poste by Daveydee:
On Ron and Hermione. I would be curious to know how you see this playing itself out. Clearly there is a situation there (that you are participating in this debate is recognition of that). Evidently you see no romance. How will JK credibly resolve a situation that she has crafted over the course of 2 or 3 books? Some say it will just fizzle out without further mention, which seems a little unrealistic given the timescale over which JK has evolved the situation. Others say it will culminate in a flat rejection of Ron's advances, which again seems at odds with the timescale with which it has been invested; that could be achieved over the course of 4 - 5 chapters. Still others say that there will be a brief and traumatic fling which will allow the supressed emotions out of their systems, after which Hermione will move on to Harry for the culmination of the series, which, to me is totally unrealistic and destructive.

How do you see it?


I am not at all convinced that Hermione is the great love of Ron’s life. We guess it’s a crush and jealousy, but are not at all certain of what exactly precipitated his accusations toward Hermione at the Yule Ball. In a previous post, I submitted the idea that Ron’s unreasonable anger towards Hermione had to do only partially with jealousy. Hermione is maturing, much faster than the boys, it seems. And Ron, who has a skewed sense of solidarity, is angry at her for what he sees as breaking trust; for not being there for himself and Harry when they need her.
Ron reacts similarly towards the revelation about Ginny and Michael Corner.

Ron is still very much a young person, where Hermione is much more mature. They have no deep points of commonality that I can see other than a love for Harry. The two of them are not even functioning on the same wavelength.

Hermione has dated an international Quidditch star. Ron is just finding himself and has never dated anyone. His Quidditch Cup victory, we see, did not impress Hermione, nor, did it seem, he ever even tried to impress her. Ron was basking in his fame and showing off to anyone who would be his audience. Ron has made no overtures and we have seen no indications from Hermione that she sees Ron as anything more than a friend. As it stands right now, in spite of all the online debate, there doesn’t appear to be any relationship between these two other than friendship for a H/Hr ship to effect. And, whatever it is that has to be resolved, has to be resolved in the minds and perceptions of the readers who see this as a thrilling love story.

Of course, I could most certainly be dead wrong and JKR could spring one of those teen film love story moments on us, pair up Ron and Hermione, and turn the romance issue into a horribly banal cliché. That is, of course, unless Crookshanks spoils it all :lol: .

Cheers,
Nia

You simply cannot remain so completely detatched from the plotting structure. These stories are very much plot driven. Not every single twist, turn and character placement is a shipping point or even necessarily part of a developing theme. To a considerable extent each of the 5 books is very much a self-contained adventure; each the plots has certain demands of the characters. That must not be overlooked.

If you stand back from the plot doesn't mean you ignore the plot. It just mean that you look after the redline which gos through all books and there is a redline where Hermione constanly grows to be important for Harry. She never does step back nor does she tell Harry off if he want or need her help. She is there no matter what. She breaks rules, lies, attack teachers, steal, sacrified her time, don't sleep, don't study... she does pretty everything for Harry. She is in a way weak if it comes to Harry what you never see by Ron.
If you stand back you don't overlook things you just look where you are. Like you write a letter. You concentrat at this sentence but before you finish you need to stand back look how its looks if the redline your meaning is there. But you don't forget this one sentence. No, you can even end this letter much better because you know and understand things alot better as before.

You say that you see a growing bond between Harry and Hermione which provides you with the self-evident conclusion that they are ultimately to be romantically paired. I say that I see this growing bond as a natural process which one would expect over the course of 5 years of friendship as each becomes more familiar with the other. I see the same growing bond between Harry and Ron. It's a natural process.

To be honest I don't see any different in Harrys friendship to Ron in PS/SS in comparing to it in PoA. There is no growing they are still best friends. But in GoF start it to slow down. They step appart from each other. In OotP is this much more visible not only Harry don't tell Ron anymore everything Ron does this too. They aren't anymore that best best friends like in PS/SS or COS or PoA. So I don't see there a growing.
But between H/Hr is a growing from PS/SS into COS over to PoA and probably the biggest steps are in GoF and OotP.
Right in PoA they had a fight this one was thank to this adventure very fast forgotten. This you can't say in GoF about Ron and Harry. The very different was Harry did know Hermione cares about him in PoA but in GoF he knew Ron is jealousy. Can you be really angry if someone cares about you?

How will JK credibly resolve a situation that she has crafted over the course of 2 or 3 books? Some say it will just fizzle out without further mention, which seems a little unrealistic given the timescale over which JK has evolved the situation. Others say it will culminate in a flat rejection of Ron's advances, which again seems at odds with the timescale with which it has been invested; that could be achieved over the course of 4 - 5 chapters. Still others say that there will be a brief and traumatic fling which will allow the supressed emotions out of their systems, after which Hermione will move on to Harry for the culmination of the series, which, to me is totally unrealistic and destructive.

JKR needs only one scene for this something like that:
Let say Seamus came to Hermione and Ron told her "Ron has to tell you something!" Hermione looks surprised to Ron "Uhm, ahm I don't know what you talking about!" said Ron uncomfortable. "Come one tell her!" Seamus tried to encourage him. "What does he mean?" Hermione asked briskly. "Well, I don't know.." Ron shrugged. "Aww Ron is to shy to tell you he likes you. You know like a girl.." Seamus smiled proudly. Hermione frowned at Ron. "You don't like me, are you?" Ron started to blush furiously "Uhm..No, off course not. You know me I wouldn't like my friend and all. I mean we're friends." "Good to know." she said happily.

This does happen in real life why not in HP?

This scene suggest to me no jealousy, no fight. Nothing. See thats probably the reason why Ron did mature in OotP. If he cleary get that Hermione don't like him than I doubt he does any trying. To this that will sorted out before H/Hr starts.

After giving a quick review to all this post I really find there is a lot of people shipping H/Hr just because he is the leading boy and she is the leading girl and so, logically, must end together.
I think this is really Barbara Cartland style and I don't think JKR writes this way. If you stick to the books and the development of the characters, you have to agree Hr has a clear feeling for Ron since CoS and has never, in any page of any chapter of any book shown anything but friendship for Harry.

Girls mature far before boys, a 15 years old girl is a woman, a 15 years old boy is just a kid, so Ron has been too young (and sometimes too male thick) to understand this but it is clear since Gof he has started to feel something for Hr, confirmed and slowly developing in OotP. You have to consider also Ron hasn't shown any interest in any other girls in the whole school.

In OotP, Hr has been pushing Harry into Cho's arms and helping him to develop his relation with her. Really someone out there thinks any 15 years old girl will do that to a boy she loves? Not even in stinking 5 cents novels you'll find such "I love him so much I'll help him to get what he wants, another girl".

Ahhh, one day and I am behind about three pages! Fellow H/Hr folk, thanks so much for answering my 'survey' of reasons for shippijng...what about all you good folk on the other sides? Must go catch up but let me just say, re: the Daily Star article: if PoA filming finished just recently, then what about the extra 6-8 months or similar that Cuaron et al were to use for proper editing? *Highly doubt* the Nov 15 date as plausible, plus where is the requisite press & PR to publicise as usual? If the date is suspect, the rest is as well...And online, their sample cover says 'beer won't give you a belly', so you make the call re: credibility. LOL!

you have to agree Hr has a clear feeling for Ron since CoS and has never, in any page of any chapter of any book shown anything but friendship for Harry.
No i won't agree, because i don't agree. Where has Hermione shown clear feelings for Ron?
See iv never understood why people say this, i am female myself so its not like i'm completely clueless on the way women think, i'm also not compltely ignorant as to not notice the way Ron and Harry think either.

so Ron has been too young (and sometimes too male thick) to understand this but it is clear since Gof he has started to feel something for Hr, confirmed and slowly developing in OotP. You have to consider also Ron hasn't shown any interest in any other girls in the whole school.
I highlighted your 'slowly' because seriously the rate Ron's going its going to be book 12 before he realizes his feelings for Hermione, but i don't think there will be a book 12, so what then?
Harry is a lot quicker with his feelings than Ron, so as soon as he's realized his feelings (if he has any of course :p ) then it wouldn't take that long for him to do something about it.

In OotP, Hr has been pushing Harry into Cho's arms and helping him to develop his relation with her. Really someone out there thinks any 15 years old girl will do that to a boy she loves? Not even in stinking 5 cents novels you'll find such "I love him so much I'll help him to get what he wants, another girl".
She wasn't really pushing as such, more giving him advice, although it didn't quite work out, Hermione told Harry to ask Cho out which he did, but that first date prooved to be a last date IMO.

EDIT:Evaluna, like i said Daily Star total rubbish don't believe a word it says, its really a complete waste of ink.

Harry is a lot quicker with his feelings than Ron, so as soon as he's realized his feelings (if he has any of course :p ) then it wouldn't take that long for him to do something about it.

Yes, he is really quick, it only took him two books to ask Cho out. ;)Seriously, really Ron has been not only slow but a bit thick on his emotional development, but maybe this will change somehaw. I agree if this don't changes Ron will need a book series longer than the Encylopaedia Britannica to ask Hermione (or any other girl) out.

Yes, he is really quick, it only took him two books to ask Cho out. ;)
It is slightly different though, because he didn't even know Cho, he saw her a couple of times around the school. he did ask her to the Yule ball though which is IMO fast for someone he doesn't even know.
Ron sits next to Hermione everyday, he has lots of chances to realize that he 'loves' her.

After giving a quick review to all this post I really find there is a lot of people shipping H/Hr just because he is the leading boy and she is the leading girl and so, logically, must end together.

Absolutely not true. If you go back and reread the H/Hr shipper posts, they use a lot of analytical reasoning to establish their POVs. I am actually astounded that they could come up with such brilliant theories (and facts) pointing to a possible romance between Harry and Hermione. In contrast, I may be the only one here you can put in this category of yours because I have been shipping H/Hr (since book 1 and even before finding out about this forum) for the reason being the two are my favorite characters in the series and so must end up together. H/Hr shippers' comments here sort of fortified my belief of H/Hr romance in the end. The use of Greek mythology hinting to H/Hr pairing is rather remarkable. And Nia rules!...I wish I had her as a teacher.

Nice posts there Nia, Fp, Augurey!

I only see 6 posts for Godric Heiress but I think you've posted in the love thread before. but here's a :welcome: for the heck of it.

Also :welcome: to chop.

Now on to business,

'Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit'

Thank you for the quote. I shall write it down and remember it. I’ve always liked this one myself,

If you wish to know what qualitites a man lacks, look at the ones he boasts of.

You have used the phrase 'positive proof'. I have always avoided using the word 'proof' - clearly there is no proof of anything as yet. I use the word evidence, and when I use the phrase positive evidence, what I mean by that is evidence which gives credence to an idea, as opposed to negative evidence which seeks to deny a particular idea, despite there being reasonable evidence for the idea. (Slothful induction). The Yule Ball gives a reasonable degree of positive evidence from which one may infer the possibility of R/Hr.

Now I’m used to a double standard from Hr/R shippers but I have to ask. As this is the definition of evidence,

ev·i·dence
noun
1. sign or proof: something that gives a sign or proof of the existence or truth of something, or that helps somebody to come to a particular conclusion
2. proof of guilt: the objects or information used to prove or suggest the guilt of somebody accused of a crime
3. statements of witnesses: the oral or written statements of witnesses and other people involved in a trial or official inquiry
4.demonstrate or prove: to demonstrate or prove something
How did you separate evidence and proof if evidence means proof?

Now its also interesting that you use Positive and Negative proof, Pro-Hr/R and Con-Hr/R. But if your evidence must be approached from either a pro or negative standpoint it shows that it is not proof. Evidence is facts and should be approached from a neutral standpoint and analyzed not from pro or con POV which often leads one to see what one wants to see.

Now also stating that the Yule Ball gives reasonable evidence is a complete fallacy. As the events prior to the Yule Ball and Post Yule Ball were given no examination. Ron’s jealousy of Harry for what Ron perceives as Harry’s leaving him behind (mirrored by Hermione at the Yule Ball), the statement betraying of Harry by Ron, Hermione’s actions at the Yule Ball (being engaged in conversation with Krum and enjoying herself, until the introduction of Ron), are dismissed entirely in order to provide your ‘positive evidence’. The actions post Yule Ball which establish the stagnant nature of Hr/R are likewise dismissed.

It is not unreasonable to assume, therefore that the Yule Ball was a watershed moment for Ron. Generally, the Yule Ball/Yule Brawl is more Hr->R than R->Hr.

And you base this entirely on ask me first. A partial conversation that Harry walked in on. A conversation in which you cannot establish what statements led to Hermione’s statement. A conversation that mirrors the Snape/Quirrel conversation/red herring of PS/SS. One must also ignore (again) that Hermione is having a good time with Krum, her attention is focused on him, and she continues to see him after the Yule Ball.

As I have already stated Hr/R returns to this in order to establish their ship in OotP, specifically the referrals to Krum by Hermione. Then the claim is given that Hermione is making sure that Ron really has feelings for her. This however would do tremendous damage to their theory that the Ask me first is positive. If it is a invitation by Hermione and a sign of Hermione liking Ron for more than a friend why would she need to keep revisiting that scene? Since Hermione extended the “invitation” to Ron, Hermione would know and understand the Ron liked her and would feel no need to confirm what she knew to already be true. Therefore there is no second step in OotP for Hr/R. And if there is no second step then one is not walking, hence it doesn’t walk like a duck (one could wonder if it is even standing like a duck at this point).

To which the reply was given:

She doesn't know it to be true. Hence the '...worse than Ron....no you're not remark'. This is a clear and direct reference back to the Yule Ball; Hermione is able to relate Cho's exasperation at Harry, with her own exasperation at Ron in the sense that Harry was unable to identify Cho's hints and Ron has been unable to identify Hermione's hints.

First the referral back to the Yule Ball. Now having established that the Yule Ball is shaky evidence to say the least we can see that referring back to it creates for a shaky theory all around. One must go back to the Yule Ball to establish this as evidence, therefore it does not stand on its own. One must view it from a pro Hr/R POV to see the evidence. One must also dismiss the earlier OotP statement about having the emotional depth of a teaspoon and return to a book earlier to generate evidence.

And that is exactly what this does, If I go back to the Yule Ball then I will see evidence. This simply generates evidence as it begins with the assumed ending of Hr/R and then proceeds.

What other hints do we refer to here, Hermione’s seeing Krum and saying that he is a nice guy. Hermione’s talking about Harry to Krum. Hermione’s kissing Harry. Her reaction to the Christmas gifts in OotP. So many hints.

Look like a duck

Lets look at after the Ask me first comment.

Now as stated this is supposed to be a positive moment towards Hermione liking Ron for more than a friend. This would confirm that Hermione knows that Ron likes her and she likes him back.

That is a Post Hoc fallacy. The first does not in any way confirm the second. Which makes the following points irrelivent in the above context:

Yes. One problem in your hurry to declare my post a fallacy and declare my points as irrelevant you failed to show how. You have not given any analysis of the text. To be specific the moment in question. Therefore as your declaration is your POV and you have not submitted any evidence to back it up one must question if this is a true rebuttal.

Your hesitancy to give concrete proof from the text also is interesting, especially since you told Nia that you began with the evidence and then went on from there. However you have kept your evidence as general as you can. Oh sorry, your hesitancy to give concrete evidence from the text leaves a lot of questions about your theory.

I would ask though - do you list these as positive H/Hr arguments, or negative R/Hr arguments?[/QUOTE

Pick one. I have no need to add anything to these moments to support my theory. I have submitted them as evidence and facts without the need to view them from a positive or negative POV.

[QUOTE]Although clearly she hasn't achieved her objective

Additional proof that what has been done here is start with Hr/R and work backwards in order to generate evidence for this ship. Thereby showing the weakness of this ship and this theory in particular.

She has placed the ball firmly in Ron's court.

As you have ignored the evidence that shows this statement to be false in 3 posts now I see no reason to think that you will see it if I post it again but I shall anyway.
Hermione sees Krum
Hermione talks about Harry to Krum
Hermione kisses Harry

But she does despair at Ron's lack of action.

But does nothing to encourage it. Very unHermione like. Not to mention unfair of Hermione if as you posted earlier that she doesn’t know if Ron likes her. BTW how do you explain Ron’s actions at the Yule Ball in light of this?

And she is also a young human being with all the fallabilities and insecurities that is part of the human psychocological make up. Honestly, Hawk, you make Hermione out to be an automaton - a logic machine with no humanity.

I made Hermione out to be nothing. I gave a sample of her character based on text. At no time did I try to establish any positive or negative value to her characteristics. I gave an objective analysis of her personality, nothing more. On the other hand you seemed to have viewed it in a highly negative way. Which would suggest that you simply viewed my post in a negative way and did not give it a objective analysis.

But as you said its about evidence. So simply use your books to point out where my character analysis is flawed and I shall be happy to look at it. It is not an exact science after all and we are dealing with quite a bit of text. I simply chose the ones that seem to be firmly established as Hermione’s characteristics. It is completely possible that I missed something is the process.

Cheers!

Ok, i havnt been here in forever. Ive been, errrr, busy. yeah, skating takes up time! and a girlfriend. so were already on part 5? well, catch me up on what were currently debating over!

By the way, the subject was brought up earlier but I have never understood Hermione "mothering" Harry as a bad thing. Most girlfriends and wifes "mother" their boyfriends and husbands and naturally it does not seem like Hermione is aware of it either. Another thing is, Harry has never thought of Hermione acting like a mother that he does not need. Of course he has thought that Hermione was nagging him at times but it has been out of concern for his welfare. Unlike Ron, it was not about being right, it was about Harry not getting kicked out of school or worse, getting killed. Sometimes I think people really do not understand the Sirius argument from Hermione's perspective. Harry just had a funny turn in their O.W.L. exams, he comes running to her and Ron and says Voldemort has got Sirius in the Department of Mysteries at the Ministry of Magic and they have to go save him.

So basically, Harry wants to jump from Hogwarts to London, break into the Ministry of Magic, go into a room he has never been in to rescue Sirius from Voldemort without questioning how two of the most wanted wizards in the world could get in to such a room without being seen by anybody or how Voldemort got Sirius out of a house he cannot see. The fact that only Hermione noticed that there was something wrong with this is absolutely astounding.

Hawk great post on the Duck. :clap: And great posts to all my fellow Harmonians! ;) Shout out to Hermes! You know why. :)

GilyAnn
In the words of the wise Hawk: I'm Your Huckleberry!

No Harry isn't going to do anything. Because he says that he knows that he can't talk to Sirius. Again Harry never said that he was going to go into Umbridge's office to talk Sirius. That was the twins idea. Remember that Umbridge was watching all the fires. She had her hand in the Griffindor tower fire. At no point did Harry said I'm breaking in Umbridge's office to talk to Sirius. The only way he knows how to talk to Sirius is send him a letter and Sirius telling him when he can meet him. That's their normal way of comunicating.

Okay when confronted by Fred and George, it is said that Harry had been thinking about it for a fortnight (2 weeks). So depending on whether the Easter Holidays are one week or two, Harry started thinking about it once he was caught by Snape or right after he's spoken with Ginny. It doesn't matter how long, Harry has been thinking about it since before the Library scene or since he spoke with Ginny in Library scene.

OoP Chap. 29 Career Advice P. 658
He had been thinking about it for a fortnight and could think of no alternative; Umbridge herself had told him that the only fire that was not being watched was her own.
<snip>
And how are you going to get in there in the first place?" [Hermione]
Harry was ready for this question.
"Sirius's knife," he said."
"Excuse me?" [Hermione]
"Christmas before last Sirius gave me a knife that'll open any lock." said Harry. "So even if she's bewitched the door so Alohomora won't work, which I bet she has-"

Harry was thinking so much about going into Umbridge's office that he was ready for that question and what he would use to enter Umbridge's office.


No the only way of comunicating isn't only by fires or Owls. They could have met also in Hogsmade. And according to you she didn't plan anything so she couldn't have gotten the ball rolling because that would be taking part of planning.

Meeting at Hogmeade is out of the question because Sirius, as Padfoot, could be recognized. If you need canon evidence for this let me know, otherwise....

Yes according to me she didn't plan anything, but she helped. Help and Plan are two different things. She instigated. She was an accomplice. You don't have to part of the planning to get the ball rolling. She was the one who spoke to Fred & George who already had their own plan going and decided to tell Harry that they would help him out by having their ruckus far from Umbridge's office. If Ginny hadn't spoken to Fred and George, Harry would still be thinking about going into Umbridge's office.


When did Harry said he had though of using the Owls or the fires? He said that Umbridge's is using the Fires and the Owls which were the two methods that they most commonly use.

Look above, gave you two canon sentences from Harry himself.


A mediator is part of the plan. According to you Ginny didn't plan anything so she isn't that either. At this point Ginny is still supporting Harry's decisission not to do anything.

Mediator is not a good word. It's actually to try to calm things down between two debating/arguing or whatever groups of people. Sorry.

Anyhow, Ginny is helping Harry to talk to Sirius illegally. Therefore, she's supporting his decision to talk to Sirius.



The definitions that you used were quite clear. From your definition Ginny supports that Harry does nothing, she didn't plan anythying or did anything. My view of that scene is different and very clear.

Yes my definitions are clear, but, as custom, your interpretation of my interpretation of the definitions in regards to Ginny not morally supporting Harry is wrong. It is clear to me that Ginny does not morally support Harry. She does not advise him that what is to be done is wrong or right.


www.dictionary.com The definition that I posted was the one that suited the general and common idea of Moral Support and one that included the clear definition of what is the concept of it. But when I posted I used your definition not mine.

I see that you only stated one definition out of 9 definitions. I don't appreciated being cheated out of knowing the rest of the definitions listed at dictionary.com. Especially ones that actually support the fact that Ginny does not morally support Harry.

I also think it'd be nice if you would explain your version of what moral means by using the one definition you've chosen which was: Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.

Some questions if anyone feels like answering:

1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?
2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?
3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?
4) Is there a sharp left, surprising turn JKR could make (similar to (2) IMO)?


1) I was expecting for R/Hr to go out on date or something and then realize their incompatibility.

2) I was very shocked to see Angry!Harry. I believe half way I got used to this change. I didn't like it at first, he kept ******* me off. Ron was suprising, too. I remember reading aobut 3/4 of the book and thinking, "Where's Ron?" I didn't see enough of him, but it didn't bother me too much either. The lack of R/Hr was very surprising because I was expecting something, as I mentioned above.

3) Since this is the romance thread, I'll keep it strictly romantic. :) I am expecting the further development of Harry's thoughts on Hermione and Hermione's actions towards Harry.

4) I'd have to agree with Sirius on this. She needs to start resolving things that need to be resolved and not making them more complicated. But then again, she does write a lot. :shrug:

I'll answer one question:

What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?

I expected Harry and Cho to at least talk you know about Cedric and all. However, Cho straight up saying she likes Harry was a complete surprise to me. In truth, I had a suspicion that she always did but I never expected her to say it so simply. Then Hermione being jealous of them kissing and Cho being jealous of Hermione...I couldn't believe Harry had to put up with that again.

Posted by Sone
So basically, Harry wants to jump from Hogwarts to London, break into the Ministry of Magic, go into a room he has never been in to rescue Sirius from Voldemort without questioning how two of the most wanted wizards in the world could get in to such a room without being seen by anybody or how Voldemort got Sirius out of a house he cannot see. The fact that only Hermione noticed that there was something wrong with this is absolutely astounding.

Perfectly said, Sone. Nice posts Harmonians.

It's astounding how r/hr and h/g shippers blame Hermione no matter what the character does.

Well! here we are nitpicking again. Harry isn't popular either. He is important and well known. Come on! You know what I mean!


Exactly what I mean, there is a difference between the two words and the way you show your evidence it doesn't apply to your argument because there is a distinction between the two words. It might be nitpicking, I agree, but it does make a difference when in the context of your proof :) .


The makers of the next Harry Potter movie have sexed up the plot by making Ron and Hermione fall in love.

Fans of the hit wizard saga will be shocked with the Prisoner of Azkaban romance - because it wasn't in the book.

And the new film sees the two young lovebirds rowing while Hermione lavishes attention on her new pet cat.

Rupert Grint, who plays Ron revealed: 'We get on well to begin with, but then the cat comes along and we start arguing all the time'.

A film insider said: 'We felt the romance adds a bit of drama, but there aren't any real love scenes'.


Personally I dislike this romance, not because it is R/Hr but the fact that it is so far away from the actual book in terms of what happens. It doesn't do justice to the book nor the series and it just wrecks the movies and the books. The first two movies stayed pretty loyal to the books but the third one doesn't even seem like PoA. No wonder JKR wasn't happy with it. Also the fact that they change the clothes to more modern times is a bit off for me - because the change in clothing between the 2nd and 3rd movie is going to be so large timeline wise it doesn't make sense to me.

Personally I dislike this romance, not because it is R/Hr but the fact that it is so far away from the actual book in terms of what happens. It doesn't do justice to the book nor the series and it just wrecks the movies and the books. The first two movies stayed pretty loyal to the books but the third one doesn't even seem like PoA. No wonder JKR wasn't happy with it. Also the fact that they change the clothes to more modern times is a bit off for me - because the change in clothing between the 2nd and 3rd movie is going to be so large timeline wise it doesn't make sense to me.
perhaps the the scriptwriter is trying to speed up the possible future storyline after all what if actors and actresses get bored and the films stop.(shock! horror!)

perhaps the the scriptwriter is trying to speed up the possible future storyline after all what if actors and actresses get bored and the films stop.(shock! horror!)

Or perhaps it was a rumor. *shock*

perhaps the the scriptwriter is trying to speed up the possible future storyline after all what if actors and actresses get bored and the films stop.(shock! horror!)


I doubt it, an actor change wouldn't change how the storyline goes neither would a stop in the movies. The thing is it is a possible storyline and if the scriptwriter (Kloves I think) is making a possible future storyline then he must know enough from what JKR has told him in future books for her to approve it.

Well if the movie is a rumour, we'll find out soon. We probably won't know if they changed it or not when the movie comes out, they still have plenty of time to film before the movie releases.

PERSONALLY i think Harry and Luna will get together, i've beeen saying this for ages now, its just that i think its REALLY OBVIOUS!!!!!!!

While the movie rumour sounds silly (good on ya Crookshanks :lol: ) I'm curious to see how they handle the Ron/Hermione fighting/tension and Harry's anger and whether the actors are up to it. If Chris Columbus was still directing he would probably have turned Angry Ron into Funny Ron at every opportunity. (Having said that JKR in the book definately plays the hug with Ron patting Hermione on the head for laughs). But hopefully Alfonso Cuaron will be able to really bring the emotional tension and anger out in a dramtic way. I hope Rupert can rise to the challenge of having to produce more than just a scared/funny face every five minutes. CC liked that look a bit too much: "do it again, Rupert!"

Absolutely not true. If you go back and reread the H/Hr shipper posts, they use a lot of analytical reasoning to establish their POVs. I am actually astounded that they could come up with such brilliant theories (and facts) pointing to a possible romance between Harry and Hermione. In contrast, I may be the only one here you can put in this category of yours because I have been shipping H/Hr (since book 1 and even before finding out about this forum) for the reason being the two are my favorite characters in the series and so must end up together. H/Hr shippers' comments here sort of fortified my belief of H/Hr romance in the end. The use of Greek mythology hinting to H/Hr pairing is rather remarkable. And Nia rules!...I wish I had her as a teacher.

I've read everything and I don't say they have not tried to find "evidence" to support their shipping, you just have misunderstood what I was saying. My remark is people are just shipping them becuase they like things to be like that and then searching every small bit of dust in the books wich can support their theories.

If you had worked in Philosophy of Science as I have, you would know thee are three basic ways of developing and demonstrating a theory:

a) Classic way: I write a proposition and then I try to find facts that support it. If I can find enough, theory is true. (Mostly this is the way H/Hr shippers use)
b) Karl Popper way: I write a proposition and then try to find facts that deny it. If I can't find enough, theory is true. (some people and also arguing and counterarguing seem to use this way, but very few)
c) Deductive way: First I try to find all facts relating to the subject I'm studying. Second I try to imagine all possible theories related to the subject. Third I confront every theory with all facts and see wich theory can explain all (and I mean ALL) facts. If I can't (happens 99.9% of the times) I have two alternatives:
1) Try to find a new theory explaining ALL facts.
2) Try to find wich theory explain the most important facts (and not the higher number of facts as many may think), so I have to weight the facts and see wich theory explain more facts weight. (Absolutely no one is using this approach in this forum)

I start to think if we speak about R/Hr or H/Hr or H/G we forget a very if not the most important part in this story its that they are 15 or 14. Now R/Hr do argue Ron did fall in love with Hermione in book4 but he don't realise it. This say he was 14.
Harry had his crush at Cho with 13 and get her to know with 15 It was nothing how he wanted it. His feelings weren't like in GoF as his crush was at the highest point and he was 14.
Ginny did fall for Harry after H/G with the age of 10 or 11. This did hold on till she was 13. Where it did change.
Now seriously don't we forget that they are in the puberty? Just say Ron did fall for Hermione with 14 do you really think he feel with 15 just the same? Though at this age the feelings change through hormones. One moment you angry the other moment you has the time of your live. You snape, you bussy around, you yell, you cold, cruel, lovely.
For me is R/Hr and H/G the most unrealistic couples what I can think of because of this little fact that we speak about teenagers. I know some did say H/Hr do speak about undying love, about deep true love and this is too much for teenagers at this age. But you forget we on this ship never did say Harry falls in love with Hermione in the age of 11,12,13,14,15... We said he will fall with 16 or at least 17 for her. Hermione on the other hand is a girl and as girl you mature earlier this say its possible that she falls with 15 or 16 for Harry.
The problem of H/G and R/Hr or the iceberg is that both ships say Ginny or Ron are already in love and that Hermione is it too.
Now let be realistic if Ron as guy is in love with Hermione since he is 14 than you can't expect for me that I believe this ship will ever happen. You know I was once 14 and I know very well no-one off my class-mates was in love. Maybe a crush but this didn't last long. Even they were best friends and did bicker and all this stuff was it in the end just that they were used to be close thats why the guy thought "He is in love".
Right Harry was not attracted by Hermione in the last 4 or 5 years and he don't has this interesting feelings in his stomach for her but which guy has this with 11 or 12 or 13 or 14? Who is since the first day in such way interested in a girl? Ron? No. This between Harry and Hermione is probably the most realistic thing in this books if they at the end fall for each other. This is nearlly real life. This girl what was at the beginning "The most interfering girl" than "a know-it-all" than "bossy-girl" than "Annoying" turns out as that girl for Harry. Thats genial if you ask me.
All this failures you point out are a plus for H/Hr because the whole serie is worked out to end there.
You say Ron will be deeply hurt if Hermione turns out to be in love with Harry but you forget he did fall with 14. You don't think this slows down that Ron isn't anymore interested in Hermione? Is this so impossible that he did think at her because he was used by her? She is after all the first girl which is that close to him and is not his sister. This is by Ginny just the same. Exactly the same only that she is over Harry. She was 10 as she saw him the first time. If you told me a girl with ten did fall for her later Husband I did heartly laugh. You can't expect that I believe this.
I bet you know this interesting "5-point" essay by Angua from SQ. Its thought as anti-H/Hr but if you take that this is the time of puberty (by the way she explain it very well though she don't debatte this time) than you could take it as pro-H/Hr, very pro.
If JKR going to write a realistic ship than I don't expect R/Hr or H/G. Its H/Hr. I wouldn't believe that a 14 year old find his love and a 10 or 11 year old find her love this were the most unrealistic story I had ever heard from.

Turambar "Do it again.." :rotfl: This was great

PERSONALLY i think Harry and Luna will get together, i've beeen saying this for ages now, its just that i think its REALLY OBVIOUS!!!!!!!
Arrgh .. i guess it could be possible but i can only remember a few in stances and the involved harry thinking she was weird and one more likely instance when he felt sorry for her .

Hey guys! Just stopping in for a sec. Great posts all around! :clap:

I saw this and really felt like I need to contribute.


Some questions if anyone feels like answering:

1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?
2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?
3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?
4) Is there a sharp left, surprising turn JKR could make (similar to (2) IMO)?


1) I wasn't expecting much. I knew Ron & Hermione weren't going to get together in OotP. I was hoping for more H/Hr, especially off of that kiss on the cheek, but that didn't happen. However, I am happy with what I read. I didn't expect an Angry!Harry, but I was estatic when I read him being like that. Plus, I also felt that three quarters through the book was "Where's Ron?"

2) Nope. Though I am glad that Ron matured a bit more. I really didn't like him after PoA & GoF. Now, he doesn't bother me as much.

3) I definitely don't think Ron & Hermione will ever get together. I do expect the books to be more Harry & Hermione centric, and some resolution with the romances. But then again, anything can happen, it's whatever JKR wants to do.

4) For others, I could see that it would be H/Hr, but for me it would be R/Hr.

See y'all later!

Sarmi

No, it is relevant. This has been the pattern since GOF, even earlier, possibly. Hermione nags at Harry for not doing the right thing, and he feels guilty. That is why it bothers him, because he feels guilty that he isn’t doing what he should, and Hermione is constantly challenging him to do so.

Example from OOTP, ch. 30 Grawp:
‘You are trying to block your mind, aren’t you?’ said Hermione, lookig beadily at Harry. ‘You are keeping going with you Occlumency?’

‘Of course I am,’ said Harry, trying to sound as though this question was insulting, but not quite meeting her eye. <edited>

He also suspected that part of his mind – the part that often spoke in Hermione’s voice – now felt guilty on the occasions it strayed down that corridor ending in the black door, and sought to wake him before he could reach the journey’s end.

So you see, you can’t say that Hermione being right is irrelevant because her righteousness is what makes Harry feel annoyed. One is the cause of the other, so you can’t disregard any part of it, otherwise your argument is incomplete.



I still see it as him being annoyed. It's one of the reasons why he doesn't actually listen to her. When you are annoyed at a person you usually avoid listening or doing with what that person tells you simply because you don't want to. Harry's mind don't want to give him her the satisfaction of saying she is right. It's a phsicological thing.

I don’t think so, GilyAnn. You are right that moral support is intangible, but you cannot disregard the fact that “moral support” is called “moral” for a reason. If you’re not supporting someone to do the right thing, then you’re egging them on to do the wrong thing. One does not say that Joe gave John moral support when John is about to go rob an old lady of her purse. “Moral support” should be used within the proper context, and in this library scene, it would be inappropriate to characterize what Ginny did as giving Harry moral support.

You’re starting to confuse me here…Grace said that Ginny didn’t plan, but she did help Harry to find a plan. By our rules or not, Ginny did take part in helping Harry get to Umbridge’s fireplace, even though she may not have planned the logistics of that operation.

::sights:: :shrug: I don't mean to be insulting(I really don't) but H/Hr shippers are sometimes way too thecnical. That to me sometimes falls dangerously to twisting things. My original intentions with moral support is was in the lines of emotional help just being supportive to Harry on his emotional side. I'm playing this as I go along but if you look in most online dictionaries (since we must get meanings of dictionaries) it will give you one definiton amont the tens of them of moral support more somewhats along the lines of what I meant.

3 : having the effects of such on the mind, confidence, or will <a moral victory> <moral support>
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.

Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.

I've gone to give moral support to people who I completly disagree with what they were going to do but after talking to them and sharing with them for a little while they feel better even though I don't agree with what they want to do. What Ginny did was help Harry on his emotional side whether right or wrong she did what Harry needed most at that poing. Some help on his lost emotional side. No matter what 15 thousands dictionaries meannings we get. I still will feel that Ginny did great and help Harry on something that Hermione fails at, Harry's emotional side.

I know they become friends iin this book. But I don't speaking limited about this book its for all books. I said there is foreshadowing. Why needed it a troll at Halloween to become friend with Hermione though with nobody else is this neccessary.

The troll was necesarry because with Hermione's personality neither would have become friends from the very beginning.

If Hermione is just a sidekick and will always be just a sidekick than make this scene no sense. Than is there this little sentence which say:
There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other.

Why not? That is her role. Harry was quite bother by Hermione before there.

Do you really believe that Hermione has any idea that she's annoying Harry?

She does, because Harry has told her so.

OoP Chap. 30 Page 681

Harry interrupted her before she had even started.
'It's no good nagging me, it's done,' he said firmly. 'Fred and George have got the gold - spent a good bit of it, too, by the sounds of it - and I can't get it back from them and I don't want to. So save your breath, Hermione.'
'I wasn't going to say anything about Fred and George!' she said in an injured voice.
Ron snorted disbelievingly and Hermione threw him a very dirty look.

Enhphasis mine.

OoP chap. 29 Page 651

'Well, I don't think Snape should stop until you're absolutely sure you can control them!' said Hermione indignantly. 'Harry, I think you should go back to him and ask -'
'No,' said Harry forcefully. 'Just drop it, Hermione, OK?'


First things first Gilyann 'nitpicking' is how we get to the bottom of things on this thread, if we didn't 'nitpick' then we'd never get anything done.

Oh no I'm sorry I do not feel we get to the bottom of things nitpicking.

Hermione does not sympathize with Ron and why should she? Ron is in the wrong here, its hardly Harry's fault that Ron's jealous of him, Hermione is smart enough to know that Ron's jealous and she tells Harry this (who is not so smart enough to know)

Then why is she justifying Ron's feelings and understanding. This isn't about who's right or wrong. This is about Hermione understanding Ron's feelings not Harry.

Gilyann i cannot in the slightest see your view as correct, you said you read that scene quite a few times, well you need to read it again girl, because you have not got that scene, i'm sorry to be blunt with you but how can you say that Hermione doesn't understand Harry when she stands there and excepts his story with no argument, she believes him that he didn't put his name in the GOF, and thats it. The understanding is there if it weren't then she would be just like Ron.
I'm really beginning to suspect that your just looking for excuses to downplay the Harry and Hermione friendship now with anything you can think of.
Explain to me the part where Hermione is understanding Ron through Harry's eyes, because i'm just not getting it.

Girl I've read that I'm very clear on that scene. Hermione doesn't understand Harry she fails at his emotional level there quite a lot. She believed in him yes but to say that she gave she reaches him on his emotional level. In the famous words of Angua on her essay. She tries but she doesn't do a good job at it(paraphased). Hermione undesrstands and justify Ron's feelings to Harry. She didn't asked why the whole thing started, she doesn't understand why Harry doesn't want to go talk to Ron or the specifics of the conversation. She knows Ron's feelings, why does he feel that way, why is he acting that way. But she doesn't asked Harry's or listen to his feelings. That was why the prospect of talking to Sirius was the only thing that sustained him after that.

If you stick to the books and the development of the characters, you have to agree Hr has a clear feeling for Ron since CoS and has never, in any page of any chapter of any book shown anything but friendship for Harry.

:welcome: Chop! I agree. Hermione has never shown any interest in Harry romantically.

Grace:

Okay when confronted by Fred and George, it is said that Harry had been thinking about it for a fortnight (2 weeks). So depending on whether the Easter Holidays are one week or two, Harry started thinking about it once he was caught by Snape or right after he's spoken with Ginny. It doesn't matter how long, Harry has been thinking about it since before the Library scene or since he spoke with Ginny in Library scene.

OoP Chap. 29 Career Advice P. 658
He had been thinking about it for a fortnight and could think of no alternative; Umbridge herself had told him that the only fire that was not being watched was her own.
<snip>
And how are you going to get in there in the first place?" [Hermione]
Harry was ready for this question.
"Sirius's knife," he said."
"Excuse me?" [Hermione]
"Christmas before last Sirius gave me a knife that'll open any lock." said Harry. "So even if she's bewitched the door so Alohomora won't work, which I bet she has-"

Harry was thinking so much about going into Umbridge's office that he was ready for that question and what he would use to enter Umbridge's office.

LOL! :rotfl: I was wondering how long was it going to take to bring up that part. One thing first this was after Ginny talk to Harry not before. Second Fred and George talk to Harry at the end of the holiday season. I don't know how long are holiday seasons but the library scene was at the beginning of the week. If holiday seasons are two weeks, he started thinking about a way to talk to Sirius around the beginning of the holiday season(whether Ginny was there or not).

Meeting at Hogmeade is out of the question because Sirius, as Padfoot, could be recognized. If you need canon evidence for this let me know, otherwise....

Yes according to me she didn't plan anything, but she helped. Help and Plan are two different things. She instigated. She was an accomplice. You don't have to part of the planning to get the ball rolling. She was the one who spoke to Fred & George who already had their own plan going and decided to tell Harry that they would help him out by having their ruckus far from Umbridge's office. If Ginny hadn't spoken to Fred and George, Harry would still be thinking about going into Umbridge's office.

Ok, I'll stop having fun. Yes she did help out. I agree. But I think that was a good thing rather than a bad thing. Like you all are trying to make it be, just to say that Ginny is unsuitable for Harry. If Ginny wouldn't have had that conversation with the twins. Harry still would have found a way to talk to Sirius. He wouldn't have said anything to Hermione or Ron and quite possible he would have planned and probably get caught or something. Harry doesn't listen to Hermione. What makes you think that if Ginny nags him he is going to listen to her? Harry sets his mind onto something and goes for it. No matter what anyone says. Hermione is proof of it.

I do believe, though that in the future if Ginny backs away and tells Harry that they shouldn't do something he is probably going to listen to her. Why? Because it will register on his mind (just like when Sirius die) that if someone is doing something that they don't normally do that there is something wrong in the whole picture.

Mediator is not a good word. It's actually to try to calm things down between two debating/arguing or whatever groups of people. Sorry.

Anyhow, Ginny is helping Harry to talk to Sirius illegally. Therefore, she's supporting his decision to talk to Sirius.

It's fine. I was wondering why did you use mediator. Like I said yes she helped and I'm quite happy that she did. :D :tu:

Yes my definitions are clear, but, as custom, your interpretation of my interpretation of the definitions in regards to Ginny not morally supporting Harry is wrong. It is clear to me that Ginny does not morally support Harry. She does not advise him that what is to be done is wrong or right.

Like I said before I do believe that she is helping Harry on his emotional side. Something that Harry is in the need, badly there.

I see that you only stated one definition out of 9 definitions. I don't appreciated being cheated out of knowing the rest of the definitions listed at dictionary.com. Especially ones that actually support the fact that Ginny does not morally support Harry.

I also think it'd be nice if you would explain your version of what moral means by using the one definition you've chosen which was: Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.

Grace I'm sure you know this. But you need to use the one that suits your sentence. Quite clearly it defines moral support. Your definitions made no sense on the context of my sentence and my meaning but since you insist on using them. . . well what could I do? Next time I'll post them all and highlight the one that I meant and that most suits the meaning of the sentence.

To explain what I meant originally, since you asked. I think Ginny reached Harry in a place that I have only seen Sirius reached him and sometimes Ron. His emotional side. I think we all know that Harry didn't need that Ginny help him talking to Sirius. With or without her he would have done it. But what Ginny did in that scene was helped Harry on something that Ron and Hermione were failing at it and that as sidekicks they had to fail at. Harry was deeply trouble by what he had seen. He feels despair and reaches a point that he starts imagining things that are quite clear that are not possible. Harry needed that talk to Sirius bad. Harry fall into depression fast with that memory and his troubles about seein it. He needed someone that listen to him. Someone that allowed him to talk freely about his desire and understand him. Even if Ginny wouldn't have been able to do anything. The thing is she heard him and allowed him to talk. She gave him the emotional help that he needed.


The problem of H/G and R/Hr or the iceberg is that both ships say Ginny or Ron are already in love and that Hermione is it too.
Now let be realistic if Ron as guy is in love with Hermione since he is 14 than you can't expect for me that I believe this ship will ever happen. You know I was once 14 and I know very well no-one off my class-mates was in love. Maybe a crush but this didn't last long. Even they were best friends and did bicker and all this stuff was it in the end just that they were used to be close thats why the guy thought "He is in love".

But aren't the H/Hr shippers saying that Hermione was interested in Harry and behind Harry ever since she was eleven? Haven't you all been saying that Hermione is always after Harry because she feels more than romantic towards him? How is that different? Hermione has been interested in Harry ever since she was 11 it's ok?

Gily Ann

But aren't the H/Hr shippers saying that Hermione was interested in Harry and behind Harry ever since she was eleven? Haven't you all been saying that Hermione is always after Harry because she feels more than romantic towards him? How is that different? Hermione has been interested in Harry ever since she was 11 it's ok?

Did you ever understand our points? Because by now I doubt this. I did always say that there is a building up this don't say Hermione was since she saw Harry madly in love. She was and is his best friend and she would do everything for him. This what I'm talking about. I did never say Hermione has a crush at Harry like Ginny had it. Or that she fancy him since she saw him thats wrong to think. Its a simple building up by JKR not that much by H/Hr. Its her way to let us the reader get used at the idea that H/Hr is very much possible to happen in book6. This is what she meant as she said that there won't be a reaction like where did that came from. H/Hr does argue that this path, this route does exist for H/Hr for this I do debatte that Hermiones doing isn't just friendly doing that she indeed does more for Harry without thinking. She don't ask herself, she just do it. If you like it can be called as unknowing love but strictly platonic love.
Ginny on the other hand does know that she liked Harry that way and acted like that.
This is the very point of H/Hr its not I say they are all along in love I said they all along unbelievable close especially in GoF but don't have any clue and don't ask what they feel. Its unknowing thats why people around see it but not them. For them is it friendship. In OotP start to change this thinking and only in OotP this will be in book6 much more change.

She does, because Harry has told her so.
He say drop it that don't say "You always annoy me"

The troll was necesarry because with Hermione's personality neither would have become friends from the very beginning.

As author you has pretty every chance to do it different. There is no need of a troll or that this happens at Halloween. Just say why not after "The midnight duel" quiet possible. But JKR didn't use this. She did use the Halloween day. Why use the very same day like 10 years before? Why not any other day? An author don't do this for fun. Its there because this means something. JKR didn't say for nothing that Halloween is an important day in this books. Why? Because at this day Harry lost and won.

Thank you, Hawk92, Gosh-o-willikers, you’re the best with a six shooter I’ve ever seen! :clap: Most impressive!
Thanks Turambar, Grace Granger and Flying Phoenix (Great Post, BTW!). Thanks, Godrics Heiress and :welcome: aboard the Harmony.

Turambar:
Some questions if anyone feels like answering:

1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?
2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?
3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?
4) Is there a sharp left, surprising turn JKR could make (similar to (2) IMO)?



1) I knew Harry would have to explore his feelings for Cho. I love the school metaphor that JKR uses, even though it has been done before. As Harry attends Hogwarts, he is also in the “school of life.” How will he ever know what is true and good and right unless he is exposed to what is not? Cho’s regard for Harry was just as empty as his for her because it was based on totally superficial criteria. They fancied each other but for the most part, they never got beyond being strangers. I knew Harry would have to ask her out, and spend time with her to see that there was nothing of substance between them. I did believe, however, that it would be more than one date. But I thought JKR handled it very well and without any of that deep teen angst that would depress us all.


2) A bit. I expected Harry to have to deal with the issues raised at the end of GoF, but I didn’t think JKR would be gutsy enough to write that much (justified) anger! That was great! Now Ron, I expected to come a bit more into his own. I thought he might mature a bit more than he did, but I didn’t expect this distancing from Harry. After Voldemort tried to kill Harry at the end of GoF, I thought Ron would see how unfounded his suspicions and jealousy in GoF were and have more empathy for the real peril of Harry’s being who he is.

3) The War has begun. I think in the next book, IF the patterns continue, we will see Harry dealing with what the prophesy actually means, although I'm expecting more of a eleventh hour revelation of something profound in Book 7. I’m hoping to see him share the prophesy with Ron and Hermione, although I think that Ron will pull away from the trio as his status in the school increases. His own advancement might become more important to him than what is being done in the war against Voldemort. I did not like that scene in OoP with Ron being borne away alone by the Quidditch crowd at all. It was rather eerie and ominous—especially since the crowd did not also honor Ginny, who also helped win the game for Gryffindor. I'm rather dreading to see how Hermione handles the prophesy. I don't think it will be pretty at all.

It is quite possible that Harry and Ron will have a falling out over Ron’s new status and its implications for the Trio. Depending on whether or not Harry still feels ostracized and fatalistic, he might end up only sharing the prophesy with Lupin, if anyone. Lupin, in any event, will be instrumental in helping him to see the value of friends and comrades as well as helping Harry reconcile his feelings about James.

Fudge will be either ousted as Minister of Magic or his popularity will falter as the war begins. Either at the end of Book 6 or the beginning of Book 7, a new minister will be named. I’m guessing it might be Arthur Weasley, since Ron’s joking predictions have an uncanny way of coming true.

What about shipping? I think Harry will be more inclined to listen to Hermione, and they will draw closer, although I am not so sure that they will develop a full out romantic relationship in Book 6. If that is to come it will probably begin at the end of Book 6 and be fully explored in Book 7. The best thing is the hormones will have calmed down a bit. :lol:

4) There are literally dozens of ways JKR can go with this narrative. Some are more believable than others. A few unexpected twists I have dealt with above. I can really see Ron’s character veering off and him abandoning his promise to ‘be there’ for Harry because of the lure of fame and glory. Hermione suddenly finding Neville utterly fascinating. Ron and Hermione suddenly becoming a couple would be very surprising after the lack of development in OoP. Harry becoming closer to someone other than Hermione would be a big surprise. I guess with JKR, I have learned to simply expect the unexpected. :)

Cheers,
Nia

You have used the phrase 'positive proof'. I have always avoided using the word 'proof' - clearly there is no proof of anything as yet. I use the word evidence, and when I use the phrase positive evidence, what I mean by that is evidence which gives credence to an idea, as opposed to negative evidence which seeks to deny a particular idea, despite there being reasonable evidence for the idea. (Slothful induction). The Yule Ball gives a reasonable degree of positive evidence from which one may infer the possibility of R/Hr.
Hawk replied:

Now I’m used to a double standard from Hr/R shippers but I have to ask. As this is the definition of evidence,

ev•i•dence
noun
1. sign or proof: something that gives a sign or proof of the existence or truth of something, or that helps somebody to come to a particular conclusion
2. proof of guilt: the objects or information used to prove or suggest the guilt of somebody accused of a crime
3. statements of witnesses: the oral or written statements of witnesses and other people involved in a trial or official inquiry
4.demonstrate or prove: to demonstrate or prove something
How did you separate evidence and proof if evidence means proof?
I don’t know where your definitions came from, but it was clearly my intention to indicate that proof and evidence are not the same.

proof: evidence establishing a fact or the truth of a statement
evidence: information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid
Source: Oxford English Dictionary

So, whilst proof is evidence, evidence is not necessarily proof. Hence, I always use the word evidence, and never the word proof. Clearly there can be no proof as we do not yet have an outcome; however we can have evidence which indicates a likely outcome.

Now its also interesting that you use Positive and Negative proof, Pro-Hr/R and Con-Hr/R. But if your evidence must be approached from either a pro or negative standpoint it shows that it is not proof. Evidence is facts and should be approached from a neutral standpoint and analyzed not from pro or con POV which often leads one to see what one wants to see.

Now also stating that the Yule Ball gives reasonable evidence is a complete fallacy. As the events prior to the Yule Ball and Post Yule Ball were given no examination. Ron’s jealousy of Harry for what Ron perceives as Harry’s leaving him behind (mirrored by Hermione at the Yule Ball), the statement betraying of Harry by Ron, Hermione’s actions at the Yule Ball (being engaged in conversation with Krum and enjoying herself, until the introduction of Ron), are dismissed entirely in order to provide your ‘positive evidence’. The actions post Yule Ball which establish the stagnant nature of Hr/R are likewise dismissed.
It is not a fallacy to suggest that the Yule Ball does not give reasonable evidence. The fact itself is the evidence. The testing of the evidence, on the other hand is an entirely different matter, which gives rise to the differences of opinion. The evidence itself still stands and may be subsequently substantiated or found to be unsubstantiated. You have thrown in some tests to the evidence in your post and those are, of course, subject to debate. However the evidence which is positive evidence remains since it creates an inference towards a conclusion, however hotly debated both the evidence and the conclusion may be. So no – that is not a fallacy.




It is not unreasonable to assume, therefore that the Yule Ball was a watershed moment for Ron. Generally, the Yule Ball/Yule Brawl is more Hr->R than R->Hr.
Hawk replied:
And you base this entirely on ask me first. A partial conversation that Harry walked in on. A conversation in which you cannot establish what statements led to Hermione’s statement. A conversation that mirrors the Snape/Quirrel conversation/red herring of PS/SS. One must also ignore (again) that Hermione is having a good time with Krum, her attention is focused on him, and she continues to see him after the Yule Ball.
That we only saw part of the conversation is irrelevant in establishing Hermione’s 'Ask me first…’ comment as evidence. Again the evidence itself may be tested. If it is subject to test, I don’t see what difference it would make whether the preceding conversation was about Ron himself or Ron’s attitude to Krum. I may test both scenarios and post later.



As I have already stated Hr/R returns to this in order to establish their ship in OotP, specifically the referrals to Krum by Hermione. Then the claim is given that Hermione is making sure that Ron really has feelings for her. This however would do tremendous damage to their theory that the Ask me first is positive. If it is a invitation by Hermione and a sign of Hermione liking Ron for more than a friend why would she need to keep revisiting that scene? Since Hermione extended the “invitation” to Ron, Hermione would know and understand the Ron liked her and would feel no need to confirm what she knew to already be true. Therefore there is no second step in OotP for Hr/R. And if there is no second step then one is not walking, hence it doesn’t walk like a duck (one could wonder if it is even standing like a duck at this point).

To which the reply was given:


She doesn't know it to be true. Hence the '...worse than Ron....no you're not remark'. This is a clear and direct reference back to the Yule Ball; Hermione is able to relate Cho's exasperation at Harry, with her own exasperation at Ron in the sense that Harry was unable to identify Cho's hints and Ron has been unable to identify Hermione's hints.
And Hawk replied:
First the referral back to the Yule Ball. Now having established that the Yule Ball is shaky evidence to say the least we can see that referring back to it creates for a shaky theory all around. One must go back to the Yule Ball to establish this as evidence, therefore it does not stand on its own. One must view it from a pro Hr/R POV to see the evidence. One must also dismiss the earlier OotP statement about having the emotional depth of a teaspoon and return to a book earlier to generate evidence.

And that is exactly what this does, If I go back to the Yule Ball then I will see evidence. This simply generates evidence as it begins with the assumed ending of Hr/R and then proceeds.

What other hints do we refer to here, Hermione’s seeing Krum and saying that he is a nice guy. Hermione’s talking about Harry to Krum. Hermione’s kissing Harry. Her reaction to the Christmas gifts in OotP. So many hints.
No – the Yule Ball was often cited as clear evidence before OotP. Far from generating evidence in GoF, events in OotP put much of that into perspective, viz a viz:

1. Reaction to the Xmas gifts. Quite why the debate should have raged over Hermione’s respective reactions to each of the presents is beyond me. The whole point of that scene was surely about Ron; not about Hermione. In GoF, Hermione remarks that it’s taken Ron three years to notice she’s a girl; lo and behold up he pops in OotP with a gift of perfume showing that he now recognises her femininity and no longer sees her as a walking encyclopedia completely devoid of any sexuality. That seems to me to be the obvious point of that scene. It is a direct allusion to the pre-Yule Ball scene.

2. Remarks about Harry’s unsuccessful date with Cho. The ‘worse than Ron…’ comment indicates that Hermione has some personal experience to enable her to make that comparison. Harry fails to identify certain needs which Cho telegraphs during their date. Hermione is able to empathise because Ron also failed to identify certain needs of her own. Again a direct allusion to GoF. How else is Hermione in a position to make the judgement call that Harry is not worse than Ron?



Now as stated this is supposed to be a positive moment towards Hermione liking Ron for more than a friend. This would confirm that Hermione knows that Ron likes her and she likes him back.
I replied:

That is a Post Hoc fallacy. The first does not in any way confirm the second. Which makes the following points irrelivent in the above context
To which Hawk replied
Yes. One problem in your hurry to declare my post a fallacy and declare my points as irrelevant you failed to show how. You have not given any analysis of the text. To be specific the moment in question. Therefore as your declaration is your POV and you have not submitted any evidence to back it up one must question if this is a true rebuttal.
Now lets be clear, for I think you misunderstand. I did not declare your post a fallacy. I referred to your specific argument above as a post hoc fallacy. I refer in that instance to the logical fallacy of assuming that because one thing follows another that the one thing was caused by the other. Follow this link: http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/posthoc.htm


As you have ignored the evidence that shows this statement to be false in 3 posts now I see no reason to think that you will see it if I post it again but I shall anyway.
Hermione sees Krum
Hermione talks about Harry to Krum
Hermione kisses Harry
Now I didn’t ignore these points in previous posts – I referenced them on both occasions. I did not see them as being relevant to the original question about the answer to whether Hermione likes Ron as more then a friend being within GoF, since none of the above answer the question in terms of positive evidence. However, if you like, I will address them:

Hermione sees Krum – We know next to nothing about the relationship between Hermione and Krum, much less whether they are boy/girl friend. She does not appear to be overly devoted to him. Hermione seeing Krum takes no more away from R/Hr than it does with H/Hr.

Hermione talks about Harry to Krum – Of course he’s probably a little paranoid following the Rita Skeeter articles, but why wouldn’t she talk about Harry. Both Krum and Harry are Triwizard champions. Any possible mention of Ron would be meaningless to Krum in that context.

Hermione kisses Harry – a friendly kiss goodbye. But if it’s a shipping point it’s balanced by kissing Ron in OotP.



But she does despair at Ron's lack of action.
Hawk replied:

But does nothing to encourage it. Very unHermione like. Not to mention unfair of Hermione if as you posted earlier that she doesn’t know if Ron likes her. BTW how do you explain Ron’s actions at the Yule Ball in light of this?
Her despair at Ron’s lack of action is highlighted in OotP. Her encouragement of it is shown in GoF. I suspect we must wait until the next book for further action and/or encouragement. Ron’s actions at the Yule Ball are consistent with the confusion that comes at such watershed moments. His emotions are a mess. All at once he’s just realised that he likes Hermione as a girl, he’s angry that she is at the ball with Krum and feels she is betraying Harry and he’s also jealous for himself that she’s at the ball with Krum.



And she is also a young human being with all the fallabilities and insecurities that is part of the human psychocological make up. Honestly, Hawk, you make Hermione out to be an automaton - a logic machine with no humanity.
Hawk replied:

I made Hermione out to be nothing. I gave a sample of her character based on text. At no time did I try to establish any positive or negative value to her characteristics. I gave an objective analysis of her personality, nothing more. On the other hand you seemed to have viewed it in a highly negative way. Which would suggest that you simply viewed my post in a negative way and did not give it a objective analysis.

But as you said its about evidence. So simply use your books to point out where my character analysis is flawed and I shall be happy to look at it. It is not an exact science after all and we are dealing with quite a bit of text. I simply chose the ones that seem to be firmly established as Hermione’s characteristics. It is completely possible that I missed something is the process.
Your character analysis was fine as far as it went. But yes – you did miss the human angle. Unlike Ron apparently, Hermione doesn’t have the emotional range of a teaspoon.

Hi, I am a spanish fan of Harry Potter books and I want to take part in this forums. Please excuse for my bad level of english and that I cannot support my theories with literal evidence , since my copies of the first books are the spanish versions and I borrowed the last one to a friend, so I cannot give textual copies of them.

Well, since I first watched the movies and then the books, I always had the feeling that the pairing in this series will be R/Hr and H/G (the first one, hinted at the end of COS, the movie) I used to think that Ron is showed in this books as some kind of protector to Hermione (Draco to Hermione: blah blah blah MUDBLOOD!, Ron turns to Draco drawing his wand, Hermy to Ron: No Ron, It doesn't matter. This scene is in every book of the series since book 2), and Hermy shows concern about Ron's well beign (a beautiful example is the actitude of Hermione at Ron before and after the first quidditch match in book 5). And their bickering reminds me a lot the behavior of Ron's parents (in fact, when we got an explicit quote from Harry comparing Ron and Hermione with Mr and Mrs Weasley , I laughed bc I thinked about it before) so it is posible for a couple to act this way. What I see between Harry and Hermine is a beautiful friendship and nothing more. Ive never thought of them as a romantic couple.
After I read this forums I could agree with some Harmonians about their points of view. Some things I see as hints of R/Hr , like what I think is a jealousy attitude from both to the crushes of the opposite (Ron to Krum , Hermione to Fleur) could be explained in other way. Some things I had always see as acts of friendship between H and Hr could be seen in a different light but I still had the same interpretation of the books. We'll see in the next books who is right, didnt we?.

Well, I would like to comment something from book 5 that I think it wasnt used in this thread. In fact its mentioned, but with a different explanation that I gave to it. Like I said before, Im talking without confronting with the book , so maybe Im wrong with the text, Its how I remember it.

Some Harmonians say that Harry consciously didnt show hints of love to Hermione, but he has hidden feelings for her. I disagree, because In this book we have a door to Harrys subconscious and this hidden feelings are not present, in my opinion. Im talking about Harrys dreams.

In this book we have an example of how a dream can be used to throw hints to us. Neville talks about a dream in wich he sees a pair of scissors wearing his grandmothers hat. IMO this means that his grandmother is the reason why Neville is so shy and weak minded (I think the symbolism is evident) and this is confirmed when we see first hand how his granny treats him in the hospital scene.

Harry has two dreams in wich apears Hermione during this book.
In the first, If I remember correctly, he sees Mrs Weasley crying over the dead body of Kreacher and Ron and Hermione, with silver crowns , staring at them. This dream come after the scene in wich Harry feels jealousy at Ron after he was made prefect and he sees Mrs Weasleys worst fear, that was the dead bodies of her sons , husband and Harry.
My interpretation is this. Ron and Hermy with silver crowns= prefects.
Kreachers dead body = Harry.
I think Harry is represented in this dream by Kreacher B/C in the first book, we see Harry living with the Dursleys as a human house elf. Also Kreacher lives in a cupboard as Harry did in book 1.
So the meaning of this dream IMO is : Harry feels miserable after he was not chosen as prefect and feels left apart of his friends, which are distant, just staring at him.
Is Hermione hinted as a girlfriend? She didnt smile at Kreacher. She is as distant as Ron is. SO no, secret feelings not present.

Another example is a dream about Harrys love life. If I remember it rigt (please, evidence if I am wrong) this dream come after the christmas in 12GP. And I read it as a sumary of Harrys love life , so it can be used to hint romance with Hermione, but in my opinion it didnt.
The dream (I think) starts with Cho saying to Harry that her collection of cards was lost. She demanded Harry to give her his collection. Harry didnt know where it was. He turns and he sees Hermione. Hermione suggest that he can give Cho his broom, and Harry says that he didnt want to do this and this is nonsense (or something like that). How I read it?
Chocolate frog cards = Love interest . You need interest to make a collection.
Harry's broom = another symbol of interest, something very important to Harry and that has in commom with Cho, who is a quidditch player too.

So I read it in this way.
Cho: Ive lost my collection = Her love interest died (Cedric)
Cho: Harry give me your collection = she starts the relationship with Harry
Harry: I dont know where it is = He dont know how to handled it
Hermione: Harry give her your broom = She gives good advice to Harry, something that Harry and Cho had in common
Harry : I dont want to do it = Harry didnt use the good advice Hr gave to him and he lets the relationship die.

This is how I remember the text (please, correct me if i am wrong) and this is my explanation . Hermione is there only as a good friend who helps Harry with his love life ,and thats how I read it in the book , Hermione didnt shows signs of jealousy about Cho and Harry.
How it can be used as a hint to romance?. If the author wrote this way:
Cho: give me your collection.
Harry : I dont want
Hermione: Harry, give ME your broom
Harry : of course!

But she didnt. Hermione didnt transform in Cho in Harrys dreams. She helps him with his relationship with Cho.
Also, if Hermione was jealousy at Cho, this can be hinted if the author write this dream in this way:
Cho: give me your collection
Harry: I dont know where it is
Hermione: Harry, give her a STINKBOMB.

Again, she didnt. Hermione gave Harry good advice.

So Harry sees Hermione not only consciently, also subconsciently as nothing more than a friend. A good friend, his best friend maybe (I think after the fallout of GOF and the prefect badge Harry feels distant from Ron) but nothing more.

Can this situation change?. Of course. But it wasnt hinted in this book. It's only my opinion.

Hawkmoon welcome and nice theory. Just one consideration,though I can't find the text exactly...but I believe Cho turned into Hermione in Harry's dream, so this seems that Harry is reviewing Hermione's advice from earlier [post-kiss scene] and still finding that, as you say, he's not interested in making that effort with Cho after he sees Hermione in her place. This seems to have been the first sign that Harry's heart was never really in this relationship with Cho, and it is interesting that Hermione appears in place of Cho at all. I think Hermione asking for Cho and Harry saying no [rather than Hermione asking for herself and Harry saying no] serves more to rule out any deep interest in Cho but suggestively leave open the possibility of interest for Hermione.

Will edit further to answer Turambar's questions, & great posts, Harmony. Welcome all newcomers!
Some questions if anyone feels like answering:

1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?
2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?
3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?
4) Is there a sharp left, surprising turn JKR could make (similar to (2) IMO)?

1) Truthfully I dreaded R/Hr because they seemed so ill-suited but wasn't sure what to make [plotwise] of Ron's supposed possessiveness or jealousy. I'd much rather have seen Hr/V, as they treated each other with respect and courtesy. Even though Hermione didn't seem overly interested, it could have been an interim thing. I really liked Viktor's character in GoF, much more so than Ron's. Re: Harry, I wasn't too excited about Cho as her character seemed a bit flat. However, after Cedric died, I too was hoping for some discussion between Harry and someone regarding this. Given Harry's character, he would have to really trust that person before opening up. Trust that that person cared for Harry, just Harry [love that bit, FP]. Actually this is quite realistic. Cho wanted to discuss Cedric but without first having established a mutual foundation of trust and love in other areas. Harry actually was trying to build that trust on the ground by getting to know her, but she kept trying to skip these crucial steps. And perhaps they're just too different to realise this.

Re: Harry, I needed some indication of Harry's feelings [aside from Cho -- I never felt that happening but knew there would have to be some kind of resolution, so that was fine], and for me, these are most clearly oriented on Hermione as OoP progresses. IMO she is clearly the one he trusts above all others. Hermione has a very protective instinct, which resonates, but my respect for Hermione as a character went through the roof in GoF. This is the point where she really opens her eyes to the social injustice in the wizarding world. And the depth of what I perceive as unconditional love between these two characters is extremely inspiring. I really began to ship these two after OoP, and on the basis of this shared emotion. Else why bother, IMO, as a trivial romance is not worth my speculation. The only other female character who seems to have the potential for this depth of emotion is Luna. However, she has just only been introduced and whilst I think it's fairly clear that Harry can rely on Luna even without asking, which is a beautiful thing in itself, Harry's strongest relationship thus far is with Hermione. He's aware of her presence: her opinions, her regard for him, where she's sitting...LOL.

2) First, there was an adjustment period re: Harry's anger but I really loved it. Harry is so real in OoP, and his emotions are deep and complex, even those we can only glimpse. I have read loads of great literature but cannot remember ever empathising more deeply with a character in a novel [perhaps some of David Grossman's, or short story characters by J.L. Borges, I. Babel, or Torgny Lindgren], which was very surprising and could only mean...universal themes to be uncovered or further explored! So..loved Harry's development and eagerly await further exploration of his inner self.

Re: Ron, I'm sad to say that it was a bit sad but not wholly unexpected. I did think back to the mirror, and Hermione had it when she noted why Ron was jealous in OoP. Ron has matured somewhat, perhaps because he felt he could be a bit gracious toward Harry from his position as prefect. However, he seems reluctant to get involved in OoP, in my opinion largely because he still resents Harry and sees Harry as competition. Let's be honest, Harry is still the quidditch star [even if banned], the DADA whiz, the famous/infamous one, and it appears there are lots more females potentially interested in him over Ron. Luna being a possible exception. We don't even know if the third-year Hufflepuffs were even watching Ron ruffle his fringe. LOL. But I thought the way Harry was excluded and shunned by Ron at No. 12 over holiday was very sad and reflected the existing distance between the two, distance originating in GoF.

3) Ron is a potential 5th column for the other side as he is currently developed. I would actually feel somewhat cheated if Ron does nothing to disrupt the trio or counter or obstruct Harry in some way. Cho is also a potential [naive or unwitting] 5th column as she appears to choose friends poorly and has been unlucky or ill-suited in her romantic choices. Perhaps next time, either of these for Cho could have serious consequences. I do expect to see Viktor again, joining in Harry's & the wizarding world's struggle against Voldemort and his DEs. Really hope to see some development of the H/Hr/V triangle but hope and expect all to remain friends and comrades-in-arms [figuratively, unless wands are counted] in the end, regardless of outcome. Re: Harry, I will be truly disappointed if the subject of death is not treated with the attention it is due. Harry needs to mourn Sirius and he's still messed up about James. Harry will have a lot of darkness and difficult times ahead, if this is presented realistically. Lupin, Luna, Hermione. That's what's needed to help Harry through the worst of his dark times. I say this because without true understanding of death and of the persons involved, they won't reach Harry. And without a foundation of trust, they won't reach Harry. Each of these three can contribute to Harry's support based on their understanding of death; of Sirius, James, and Lily; and of their unconditional love for Harry, upon which his trust in them is based.

4) I agree with Turambar here and hope for something like this, actually:
The slow buildup of H/Hr has been a consistent thread running through the books. I think that will continue but there could be an interlude between Harry/Cho and Harry/Hermione (book 7). Perhaps Harry could become a bit more socially confident with girls, a bit more like his old man. Viktor's presence would be another way of delaying H/Hr until book 7. Perhaps there will be a falling out between Harry and Ron and the shadow Harrys (Viktor and Neville) could become more important.

Lots of good stuff, Harmony! Sone, FP, Nia, I really think you are on to some critical things there. All that stuff is going to show up in my philosophy of HP somehow.

Hawkmoon, I am not sure which Spanish translation you have, but in the english and UK version, Cho did indeed turn into Hermione. Also Harry actually does not get good advice from Hermione. Hermione says to Harry that he did promise her and to instead give her your Firebolt (his heart so to speak). Harry is protesting to Cho and then saying it was ridiculous to Hermione because he never promised Cho anything. Harry has no idea what Cho is talking about. He only came to the DA room to decorate the Christmas tree with bobbles shaped like Dobby's head (which gives me some errie feeling because it seems similar to the elf heads at 12G) Before the dream, Hermione assumes Harry is in love with Cho and wants to ask her out because they kissed and he has liked her for "ages". Not a bad assumption at all, but while she is overhearing the conversation, she is not really in it nor is she really paying attention to Harry's facial expression which outside of a reluctant grin of seeing Ron rolling around on the heart rug is completely lacking any real happiness. Ron however is another story altogether and I have a busy day ahead.

Cho shouted 'Cedric gave me loads of Chocolate Frog Cards, look!' And she pulled out fistfuls of cards from inside her robes and threw them into the air. Then she turned into Hermione,

:welcome: Hawkmoon to the thread

Now to your post.


Well, since I first watched the movies and then the books, I always had the feeling that the pairing in this series will be R/Hr and H/G (the first one, hinted at the end of COS, the movie) I used to think that Ron is showed in this books as some kind of protector to Hermione (Draco to Hermione: blah blah blah MUDBLOOD!, Ron turns to Draco drawing his wand, Hermy to Ron: No Ron, It doesn't matter. This scene is in every book of the series since book 2), and Hermy shows concern about Ron's well beign (a beautiful example is the actitude of Hermione at Ron before and after the first quidditch match in book 5). And their bickering reminds me a lot the behavior of Ron's parents (in fact, when we got an explicit quote from Harry comparing Ron and Hermione with Mr and Mrs Weasley , I laughed bc I thinked about it before) so it is posible for a couple to act this way. What I see between Harry and Hermine is a beautiful friendship and nothing more. Ive never thought of them as a romantic couple.

This can be debatte as just friendly doing. But I don't do this right now my path gos straight to the fact that Ron knows what mudblood means. The Weasleys are raised as "Muggle-lovers" so he can't, just can't let Malvoy go away with this. Ron react always if he hears "Mudblood" in other example if Malfoy does insult Hermione personality Ron don't act. Its Harry who does this. He is there to defend her and not her blood-status. This is a big different. Hermione don't care if Malfoy calls her that not in the books. She don't cry, don't yell. She just don't care but if someone insult her personaly her very heart, her beeing than is she hurt and you can see it at her face thats why Harry steps in. Thats very different because Harry does it because of her, Ron because he did learn it from his father or mother?

Harry has two dreams in wich apears Hermione during this book.
In the first, If I remember correctly, he sees Mrs Weasley crying over the dead body of Kreacher and Ron and Hermione, with silver crowns , staring at them. This dream come after the scene in wich Harry feels jealousy at Ron after he was made prefect and he sees Mrs Weasleys worst fear, that was the dead bodies of her sons , husband and Harry.
My interpretation is this. Ron and Hermy with silver crowns= prefects.
Kreachers dead body = Harry.
I think Harry is represented in this dream by Kreacher B/C in the first book, we see Harry living with the Dursleys as a human house elf. Also Kreacher lives in a cupboard as Harry did in book 1.
So the meaning of this dream IMO is : Harry feels miserable after he was not chosen as prefect and feels left apart of his friends, which are distant, just staring at him.
Is Hermione hinted as a girlfriend? She didnt smile at Kreacher. She is as distant as Ron is. SO no, secret feelings not present.

Interesting way of interpretation but I think we forgetting something and thats Harry didn't picture himself as Dobby the good houselve, right? Why? Because Harry did yell and was angry just like Kreacher is this but still Hermione does ignore it she don't step away, does she? Its Hermione passion to free the elves. You can see it in her eyes, they glow. If Harry picture himself as Kreacher than he want her attention and don't tell me Kreacher don't get her attention even he is mean to her. Harry feels left out, maybe even jealousy that Hermione and Ron are together prefects. This include Ron will have Hermiones attention like we see it in this dream. She stay by Ron's side though If you think about it this is the wrong place because she should be there where Mrs. Weasley is. I mean Hermione was the only one who did care for Kreacher, thats another picture, so she should cry about him. But she don't and there is Harrys picture false. This show Harrys fears. This isn't just a normal dream its include a fear of Harry and that is Hermione don't cry. I mean honestly don't you think she was in this dream OOC (outoffcharacter)?
Another interesting thought is why he picture himself as Kreacher because nobody likes him but Hermione but in this dream is she OOC and stand by Rons side where she don't belong. There should stay Mrs. Weasley and Hermione should sit at Kreachers side, thats much more believable. This shows how much R/Hr would bother Harry.

So I read it in this way.
Cho: Ive lost my collection = Her love interest died (Cedric)
Cho: Harry give me your collection = she starts the relationship with Harry
Harry: I dont know where it is = He dont know how to handled it
Hermione: Harry give her your broom = She gives good advice to Harry, something that Harry and Cho had in common
Harry : I dont want to do it = Harry didnt use the good advice Hr gave to him and he lets the relationship die.

But the firebolt is something different. If you remember in the past Harry did a lot dream about his broom. You need to remember that flying is the best thing what exist in Harrys live. This say If I think flying represent love thats not so much wrong. For this you need a broom without you can't fly that say Harry can't love Cho. Now Hermione tells him he should give it to Cho but Harry don't want and can't give it her. Because Its already away. His love don't belong to Cho. Hermione is again like Harry image her in his dream. This happened after this kiss that say he did get Cho isn't the right girl. This advice by Hermione is interesting because how Hermione speaks she said he promised it Cho after this Hermione don't contine right away there are cuts and as I know Hermione don't do this normally. Its interesting that Hermione comes up with the firebolt (PoA) there she did give it away, too. This time Harry protest and dos argue with her about his firebolt. This say his firebolt/heart belongs to someone else but not to Cho. Umbridge represent Voldemort he is the reason why he can't reach his heart. Than its there that Harry remember why he was even there because off heads which look like Dobby. Another hint that Harry want Hermiones attention.
Its interesting that in both dreams we see Hermione and a connection to elves. Hermione his best friend and SPEW her passion. This is interesting.

But she didnt. Hermione didnt transform in Cho in Harrys dreams. She helps him with his relationship with Cho.
Also, if Hermione was jealousy at Cho, this can be hinted if the author write this dream in this way:
Cho: give me your collection
Harry: I dont know where it is
Hermione: Harry, give her a STINKBOMB.

Hermione can't be jealousy in Harrys dream because Harrys wanting is Hermiones attention. He don't know she might like him. So she can't be jealousy.

This is how I remember the text (please, correct me if i am wrong) and this is my explanation . Hermione is there only as a good friend who helps Harry with his love life ,and thats how I read it in the book , Hermione didnt shows signs of jealousy about Cho and Harry.
How it can be used as a hint to romance?. If the author wrote this way:
Cho: give me your collection.
Harry : I dont want
Hermione: Harry, give ME your broom
Harry : of course!

This is not logical and don't fit with Harrys thinking of Hermione. She don't appears to be selfish ans wanting. She wouldn't do this thats why it don't and can't happen like that in Harrys dream. If Harry isn't sure if he has Hermiones attention than he can't dream that she want his broom.

Greetings from a long-time lurker on these threads (mainly because they move so fast I can't keep up with them!) Anyway just wanted to make a quick comment.

1. Reaction to the Xmas gifts. Quite why the debate should have raged over Hermione’s respective reactions to each of the presents is beyond me. The whole point of that scene was surely about Ron; not about Hermione. In GoF, Hermione remarks that it’s taken Ron three years to notice she’s a girl; lo and behold up he pops in OotP with a gift of perfume showing that he now recognises her femininity and no longer sees her as a walking encyclopedia completely devoid of any sexuality. That seems to me to be the obvious point of that scene. It is a direct allusion to the pre-Yule Ball scene.

Though there is quite a bit of truth in this with the whole Ron showing he has realised Hermione is actually a girl thing IMO her own feelings, shown through her reaction, are just as important. Most people would probably agree that Ron likes Hermione, but the she is the enigma here. She never seems to give away anything concrete about how she feels about either of the boys. This scene is as much an indication of her feelings as it is of Ron's, and yes, oddly enough, how she feels about the whole thing is pretty darn important. Just because Ron like her it does not automatically mean she is inclined towards him.

Also Hermione seems to hint towards having a good idea that Ron likes her so if she felt the same it is to me rather odd that she never acts on it (though actually doing so may be slightly OOC, for her, I can't decide) and nor does she do anything to really encourage it, not that I can see.

On another note, and kind of in line with the Harry's hidden feelings thing, I found Harry's occlumency lesson with Snape very interesting. When Harry sees all those memory flashes they tend to be ones associated with strong emotions; Dudley's new bike - jealousy, being chased by Ripper and laughed at by the Dursleys - fear and humiliation, nearly being sorted into Slytherin - panic, fear, general upset, the Dementors closing in - terror, his kiss with Cho - intense nerves. So then I just felt it was odd that "Hermione lying in the hospital wing, her face covered with black hair..." was an odd inclusion in this. It may mean nothing, but it was just a thought.

Anyways, I know all this stuff's been said already but it just seemed to need saying again.

Why needed it a troll at Halloween to become friend with Hermione though with nobody else is this neccessary. With no other girl they had this kind of trouble like with her. Why not write from the very start they got friend, Why make it so difficult and at the same day as Harry lost his family?


Because Hermione is not like any other girl, if you haven't noticed. Hermione is a hard person to get along with, she's a good friend, but not many people seem to know that.
Yes, Harry lost his family that day. But you see....It was not only Harry who won a friend that day, but Ron also did. It was the day they officially became "the trio". And theyre going to be part of Harry's life forever. He did win something....his friends.
So yes I think it is very symbolic, .....but not romantically.

You know there in my country its said "In the darkest night is somewhere a light" This would fit at this. JKR made the moment as Hermione became friend with Harry (I focuse at him because the serie is called HP) that special so you won't forget it. By Ron was it at the train, there wasn't a special scene neccesary. But by Hermione.

Alright......so first of all, you all claim the books are realistic...And then you obviously are forgetting that. Ron, at least for Harry, is an easy person to get along with. And IMO, both of them are special scenes. I don't see how this might end up romantically....

If Hermione is just a sidekick and will always be just a sidekick than make this scene no sense.

Yes it does, because Hermione is his friend.

Than is there this little sentence which say:
There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other

So if we are going to talk about that........then maybe I could use the Chamber scene with Harry and Ginny...

Now don't you think this sentence is interesting and that H/Hr has the most adventures alone together?


....No I don't....thats a plot thing....

In GoF, Hermione is the first person Harry thinks about when he needs help with the summoning spell. She is the only person aside from Hagrid and Dumbledore who believe Harry didn’t put his name in the Goblet of Fire.

Hermione being the first person who he thinks about, and also who he decides not to write to.... And yes, she believes him.......why do you guys keep forgetting they're friends??

It's astounding how r/hr and h/g shippers blame Hermione no matter what the character does.

I don't think anyone is blaming Hermione.....what did she do??

So basically, Harry wants to jump from Hogwarts to London, break into the Ministry of Magic, go into a room he has never been in to rescue Sirius from Voldemort without questioning how two of the most wanted wizards in the world could get in to such a room without being seen by anybody or how Voldemort got Sirius out of a house he cannot see. The fact that only Hermione noticed that there was something wrong with this is absolutely astounding.

He had been dreaming about that room before, he had had those visions, and if you lived in the wizarding world and a person you loved so much had been in the same situation and you had the chance to save them you would have done the same thing......Harry ended up doing what Hermione wanted and still it happenned....The point that Hermione is very smart is not being debated....But that doesn't have anything to do with romance...

For me is R/Hr and H/G the most unrealistic couples what I can think of because of this little fact that we speak about teenagers

First of all, throughout the seven books we will see them being teenagers, maybe not at the epilogue.......So to me, it also seems unrealistic for Harry to end up with someone he gets annoyed by almost all the time, and that he only and ONLY LIKES AS A FRIEND.



Who is since the first day in such way interested in a girl? Ron? No. This between Harry and Hermione is probably the most realistic thing in this books if they at the end fall for each other.

What do you mean?? That Harry has been interested in Hermione since the first day.....I don't understand.

Because Hermione is not like any other girl, if you haven't noticed. Hermione is a hard person to get along with, she's a good friend, but not many people seem to know that.
Yes, Harry lost his family that day. But you see....It was not only Harry who won a friend that day, but Ron also did. It was the day they officially became "the trio". And theyre going to be part of Harry's life forever. He did win something....his friends.
So yes I think it is very symbolic, .....but not romantically.

You guys have a little problem and thats I never said its romantically. Not once. Heck I never did write it since I'm at this thread. So I mean it as path, as way to go or write or forshadow or better explain H/Hr in future books. This path don't need to be romantically.
I don't speaking about Ron. He didn't lose at Halloween his parents. For him is this date not important but for Harry. JKR could have place this scene on every day. She didn't need a troll, not a rescue scene and not "A saving-thing" scene for Harry. Thats the whole point with this day Harrys live did change 1981 and 1991 did it change again. Why is Hermione so **** important if she is just Harrys friend and Ron's futur wife? Why is she so **** important for Harry that JKR need to show that at Halloween, a day which changed his live forever, Hermione steps into his live? Thats like I meet a boy at the day as I lost the dearest what I had. If this isn't symbolic, foreshadowing than I'm utterly lost.

Alright......so first of all, you all claim the books are realistic...And then you obviously are forgetting that. Ron, at least for Harry, is an easy person to get along with. And IMO, both of them are special scenes. I don't see how this might end up romantically....
To become friend with Ron JKR didn't write how a giant spider did attack him. She didn't do this because she didn't need to bring Ron into the spotlight. But she did it with Hermione. This girl she force into the spotlight there is an extra scene for her. If you watch PS/SS than you might get that this troll-scene is probably the most special scene in the whole movie. No scene in PS/SS is like that so that it stands out. The train ride don't stand out. But as Harry became friend with Hermione stands out so we won't forget it.


So if we are going to talk about that........then maybe I could use the Chamber scene with Harry and Ginny...
Sorry, but you can't because Ginny wasn't awake. She didn't share this adventure with Harry. Harry was alone. By Hermione is this different she go with Harry and is aware of this adventures. This is very different to a Ginny who is knocked out.

First of all, throughout the seven books we will see them being teenagers, maybe not at the epilogue.......So to me, it also seems unrealistic for Harry to end up with someone he gets annoyed by almost all the time, and that he only and ONLY LIKES AS A FRIEND.

So you like still the one you falled with 14 or 10? And you never did change your thinking about a person and you was never annoyed, especially annoyed by the person you loved?

What do you mean?? That Harry has been interested in Hermione since the first day.....I don't understand.

No, I say its unrealistic to say that Harry have to like Hermione since his 1 year. Don't R/Hr argue that Harry don't like her? Don't they say he was never attracted to her? Now who does like a girl right from the beginning with 11 years? Not Ron and Not Harry. So don't argue and tell me Harry don't like her. He is 15 and not 25. He did meet her with 11 and not 21. He can't be in love since his first year. You aren't interested till 14 in girls and than its starts. You see them in a new light.
So you can't argue against H/Hr at hands of book1 till 5. Because this is pretty much the time of puberty. Its absolut normal that Harry a teenager yells at Hermione in OotP. Have you any Idea how often I did see this?
That you yell the most and beeing angry the most to the one you like the most? You think thats impossible? Its not you're the most unfair to the one you like. How confusing puberty is thats possible the most confusing thing that you're unfair to the one you love the most. You say things you shouldn't say and Harry acts exactly like that he yells the most time with Ron and Hermione. Is unfair to them because those the most important persons in his live. Thats why its stand again out that Harry yells and is annoyed by Hermione the most this say she is important. Probably more important as Harry know it himself.

Because Hermione is not like any other girl, if you haven't noticed. Hermione is a hard person to get along with, she's a good friend, but not many people seem to know that.
Yes, Harry lost his family that day. But you see....It was not only Harry who won a friend that day, but Ron also did. It was the day they officially became "the trio". And theyre going to be part of Harry's life forever. He did win something....his friends.
So yes I think it is very symbolic, .....but not romantically.

The point is, JKR did not need tow rite the scene the way she did. She could have had them all get into danger by accident and have them have to fight the troll, for example. Instead, she made it so Harry thought about Hermione and went to rescue her, quite frankly taking Ron in tow with him after Ron didn't want to go. Yes Ron gained a friend, but these books are the Harry Potter story, not the Ronald Weasley story. This scene was about Harry gaining the second of his two best friends, but JKR chose to go about it in a vastly different way to the other. She also chose to do it on Halloween for some reason.

Alright......so first of all, you all claim the books are realistic...And then you obviously are forgetting that. Ron, at least for Harry, is an easy person to get along with. And IMO, both of them are special scenes. I don't see how this might end up romantically....

What does this have to do with if JKR wrote one scene in a more special manner than the other? It doesn't change the fact that JKR had Harry befriend Ron just sitting and talking on the way to Hogwarts but had him befriend Hermione with a rather special scene of rescuing her from a troll.

Yes it does, because Hermione is his friend.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but Hermione's becoming close to Harry was done in a much more special way than with Ron. Ron is a sidekick, Harry's best friend. Plain and simple. If Hermione is meant to also be simply a sidekick, Harrys other best friend, why the need for a special scene? These things aren't done by accident.

So if we are going to talk about that........then maybe I could use the Chamber scene with Harry and Ginny...

You could, but it would not be supported by canon. JKR didn't make any special issue with saying about how Ginny was now Harry's friend, etc etc etc. Additionally, after the Chamber, Ginny didn't become a close friend of Harry's in the least. Even up to the end of OOTP, all she was is Ron's sister as Harry nicely puts it in his argument with Ron and Hermione before going to the MoM. However, after the whole Troll incident, JKR made mention to say about how you can't help but be friends and state that Hermione was now a freind, then have her become very close to Harry. The troll scene is vastly different to the Chamber scene.

....No I don't....thats a plot thing....

Exactly. As we consider H/Hr to be a part of the plot, having Harry and Hermione going off on adventures alone without Ron is part of building up towards H/Hr.

Hermione being the first person who he thinks about, and also who he decides not to write to.... And yes, she believes him.......why do you guys keep forgetting they're friends??

Of course not, but Harry doesn't do this with Ron. That's what makes it different. We have a very nice way of comparing friendly and more-than-friendly moments. Ron is Harry's other best friend. Therefore, we can compare them and see what happens regarding Harry and Hermione and Harry and Ron, thereby seeing what is simply a friendly thing and what does not happen in both cases. When something does not happen in bothc ases, we have something to go on. If these things mean Harry and Hermione are only friends, then does JKR's not writing Ron in this way mean that he's not Harry's friend? Of course not.

The point is, that JKR shows Harry thinking of Hermione where he does not think of Ron. If Ron is the best friend then this means Hermione is above the best friend level.

I don't think anyone is blaming Hermione.....what did she do??

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that Hermione is always put at fault even when the canon shows her actions were correct. Example, trying to convince Harry not to go to the MoM

He had been dreaming about that room before, he had had those visions, and if you lived in the wizarding world and a person you loved so much had been in the same situation and you had the chance to save them you would have done the same thing......Harry ended up doing what Hermione wanted and still it happenned....The point that Hermione is very smart is not being debated....But that doesn't have anything to do with romance...

I honestly don't get what you're saying but I'll try to answer it anyway. The point is that JKR writes Hermione trying to break through to Harry when others will not. JKR demonstrates her stepping above what the rest of Harry's friends would do and confronting Harry, even if it will make him angry with her, in order to try and make him think his actions through properly. It does have a romantic implication because again, we have Ron as Harry's best friend. We had JKR show Hermione going above what Ron does.

First of all, throughout the seven books we will see them being teenagers, maybe not at the epilogue.......So to me, it also seems unrealistic for Harry to end up with someone he gets annoyed by almost all the time, and that he only and ONLY LIKES AS A FRIEND.

We've been through the whole annoyed routine already. i have shown how Hermione does not annoy Harry most of the time and my fellow shippers have shown how on the occassions she has, it is because Harry knew she was right and felt guilty. If Hermione annoyed Harry almost all of the time, they would not be friends. As for Harry liking Hermione as a friend only, we have also shown where JKR has used both Harry's subconcious and the choice of Hermione's name (seems all the names in the books have a meaning related to that character!) to hint at a possible development of romantic feelings toward Hermione. We have also shown how Cho was what Harry eventually realised he did not want and how he felt that part of him was no longer there. Hermione and Cho provide a contrast.

What do you mean?? That Harry has been interested in Hermione since the first day.....I don't understand.

It has been said several times over. What we are saying is that JKR has provided the buildup of H/Hr since book one. We do not claim that JKR had Harry like Hermione romantically since book one.

Oh no I'm sorry I do not feel we get to the bottom of things nitpicking.
Then how do we get to the bottom of things then Gilyann, by putting all our guesses into a hat and drawing them out one by one.

Then why is she justifying Ron's feelings and understanding. This isn't about who's right or wrong. This is about Hermione understanding Ron's feelings not Harry.
Huh? why are Ron's feelings more important than Harry's? she explains that Ron is jealous, she shows know understanding of him, and there is no reason why she should, he's being an idiot and should get over himself.

Girl I've read that I'm very clear on that scene. Hermione doesn't understand Harry she fails at his emotional level there quite a lot. She believed in him yes but to say that she gave she reaches him on his emotional level. In the famous words of Angua on her essay. She tries but she doesn't do a good job at it(paraphased). Hermione undesrstands and justify Ron's feelings to Harry. She didn't asked why the whole thing started, she doesn't understand why Harry doesn't want to go talk to Ron or the specifics of the conversation. She knows Ron's feelings, why does he feel that way, why is he acting that way. But she doesn't asked Harry's or listen to his feelings. That was why the prospect of talking to Sirius was the only thing that sustained him after that.
Well obviously your not clear on that scene because your not making any sense at all. She has no reason to ask Harry's feelings because she already knows them. Its obvious how Harry's feeling; betrayed, upset, angery, you pick one Hermione can tell that, its the whole reason she blurts out that Ron's jealous.

:welcome: Chop! I agree. Hermione has never shown any interest in Harry romantically.
and neither has she Ron...

Oh and about that Daily Star article well to all the non-british people out there let me summerise excactly what the Star is; Its the non-magical equivalant of the Quibbler, so there its complete rubbish.

I totally agree with a Ron and Hermione relationship because it's obvious the way they're always fighting. I bet deep down, they really care about each other. Neville and Ginny seem a likeky match, one is forgetful and the other caring. As for Harry, I don't realy see anyone that's his type, granted he doesn't know his type yet. Still I think JKR should introduce some new female characters that can really catch his eye. I mean with all this romance going on around him, why should our hero be left out?