Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom part five

Nia, we were discussing whether the perceived deepening in the friendship between Harry and Hermione is just that or whether plot demands make it appear so. If one looks at Harry and Hermione’s relationship with a non-judgmental eye, in terms of a totality rather than piecemeal book-by-book, it is quite easy to see an unusual growth and development.
You gave several examples, culminating in this:
In OoP, Hermione has anticipated Harry’s rage and has developed a degree of empathy that exceeds Dumbledore’s.
Now this is where my point is made pertinent – Dumbledore’s apparent lack of empathy with Harry in OotP was critical to the whole plot of the book. Absolutely central. Hermione’s degree of empathy is therefore perceived as greater than it might otherwise be. I do agree that the friendship between the two has increased depth and breadth over the years, as is natural between friends. But I think that it is because of the plotting structure that this is so; I am not of the belief that the plot is built around this premise.


You say that you see a growing bond between Harry and Hermione which provides you with the self-evident conclusion that they are ultimately to be romantically paired.
To which you replied:
No, I would never presume to say I knew anything to do with the ships beyond a shadow of a doubt.
I aplologise if I misunderstood, but my remark (above) was in response to this :
Given no startling twists or surprises in her narrative, H/Hr is self-evident to me.
which was from your previous post.


Concerning the natural process of deepening friendship:
No, it is not so natural. Kids, especially, grow apart as they grow up, they find new interests. Unless you live in a tiny community where choices are limited, as you change, your friends change. A question for you to ponder? How many of the kids you were close friends with you at eleven are still your close friends?
Well actually I am still close friends with one – but overlooking that I understand what you are trying to say.

That, generally is most certainly true, when one leaves school. Whilst at school, however, it’s a different matter. As an ex-boarding school boy, I can say without a shadow of doubt, that friendships with individuals deepened and strengthened immeasurably over the course of my 7 years at school. I’m quite sure the same would be true of other schools.

Of course, I could most certainly be dead wrong and JKR could spring one of those teen film love story moments on us, pair up Ron and Hermione, and turn the romance issue into a horribly banal cliché.
You refer to it as ‘the romance issue’. There need not be only one. What you wish to see for Harry in terms of love and redemption and what others see as a sickly sweet boyfriend/girlfriend pairing of Ron and Hermione are not mutually exclusive events.

I wonder whether the secret feminist in you is mistakenly placing Hermione as the central character in all this. ;)


On to Turambar’s quiz:
I’ll assume here that all questions relate to the romantic angle.

1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?
Harry and Cho – though not quite so short lived. An angsty R/Hr relationship – but on reflection it seems sensible that this didn’t happen in OotP, which makes the prospects of a more meaningful R/Hr more realistic later on.

2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?
Harry – yes. Almost as though the 3 years that elapsed between GoF and OotP releases was real-time in HP. Ron – not surprised. I predicted that he would step out of Harry’s shadow, and in order to do that he had to have Harry-free time. Though I think some people tend to over exaggerate the extent of that.

3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?
Some degree of Luna and Ron; I’m not sure on the extent of this. As a result of that – galvanising Hermione’s feelings for Ron; thus Harry further empathising with Luna; a developing closeness between these two.

4) Is there a sharp left, surprising turn JKR could make (similar to (2) IMO)?
I’m sure many of you will view the above as a sharp left turn; though I see huge clues for it in OotP.

Thanks for answering my questions. I wish I got that sort of response out of people when I try to get them to do something at work. :D

Thanks for answering my questions. I wish I got that sort of response out of people when I try to get them to do something at work. :D
I have been lurking on these boards for months and thought I would weigh in. First of all let me say that i have never seen so many passionate people making such well-researched arguments to support your causes. And i would also like to thank Hawkmoon and others who do not speak English as a native language for participating here with us. I have learned so much from these threads.
Well I think we can all agree that JKR is the master of this particular universe and she can go anywhere she wants with this. Also, she has laid so many "clues and red herrings" that we may all be miles of target when we join any ship. As a observer who has watched your debates I would like to add some things I have noticed that may prove relevant:
If I shipped R/Hr I would be concerned because:
1) Ron seemed to grow more distant during OOTP
2) JKR has described Hermione as a "caricature of herself" and Harry as "her ultimate hero".. hard to see then not ending up together.
If I shipped H/Hr I would be concerned because:
1) They have not shown the least romantic interest in each other.
2) Hermione's parents. They are completely absent. In the muggle or wizard world you would feel that if H/HR were going to ride off into the sunset together that the people he might one day call "mom" and "Dad" might get some development. As a matter of fact, this is my overriding thought against a H/Hr ship.
Be that as it may, I truly enjoy the thinking and passion you all show as Potter fans. Keep up the good work.

:welcome: Welcome to active status oldmuggle and thank you for the good words!

I wanted to comment on your "Worry for H/Hr" point #2. You said this here:

2) Hermione's parents. They are completely absent. In the muggle or wizard world you would feel that if H/HR were going to ride off into the sunset together that the people he might one day call "mom" and "Dad" might get some development. As a matter of fact, this is my overriding thought against a H/Hr ship.

I know this is off topic, but I have reason to believe that this is not a factor. I, as well as several others here on the thread I've noticed, have reason to believe that Mr. and Mrs. Granger may not make it to the end of the story. Hermione herself seems not to have been home for an insane amount of time. Namely, from when she left to attend the Quidditch World Cup until she finally got to see her parents at King's Cross in OOTP. This alone is quite suspicious. Anyway, Lucius Malfoy, Death Eater, seemed to know about Hermione's parents in COS. In the movie version of COS, where JKR said there were some hints to look for, there was attention given to Lucius looking at Hermione's parents when saying "Muggles, aren't they?" In GOF, Voldemort asks Lucius if he is up for a "spot of muggle torture." In OOTP, Voldemort and his Death Eaters were laying low, allowing Fudge to make the wizarding world believe Dumbledore and Harry were crazy to think Voldemort was back.

It is my belief that early in book 6, there will be an attack on the Granger household in which they may die. Should they survive or simply not be attacked in the first place (unlikely IMO), then JKR has kept them out of the picture for a very good reason. They may somehow hold key information, although I really can't say what. However, in the event they live, I think we will be seeing a lot more of them.

No, I say its unrealistic to say that Harry have to like Hermione since his 1 year. Don't R/Hr argue that Harry don't like her? Don't they say he was never attracted to her? Now who does like a girl right from the beginning with 11 years? Not Ron and Not Harry. So don't argue and tell me Harry don't like her. He is 15 and not 25. He did meet her with 11 and not 21. He can't be in love since his first year. You aren't interested till 14 in girls and than its starts. You see them in a new light.

True, and in the moment H sees girls in a new light he don't see Hr, he sees another Girl (Cho in that case). When he seems to have lost Cho he still don't see Hr in this new light. Of course there are heaps of cases in which someone just falls in love with someone else who has been there always without being noticed, but my point is there is no evidence to support this realtion has to be H/Hr. In no part of any book is a single line supporting this. Of course you can imagine it and then try to find supporting evidence, but you could do the same with any other possible couple. There is much more evidence supporting R/Hr, or even R/Eloise Migdeon, R/Luna, N/G than supporting H/Hr, except for one fact, remarked by Turambar:

2) JKR has described Hermione as a "caricature of herself" and Harry as "her ultimate hero".. hard to see then not ending up together.

So, just "external" evidence, no "internal" evidence supporting this ship.

You may well be right that there are more sightings of the Grangers to come. I was merely going by the statements JKR made on the webcast to Stephen Fry when queried about the abscence of Hermione's parents. She wrinkled her nose and made some disparaging comments about their being dentists. This could certainly be another " red herring" but if thats not the case its a bit fantastic that she has not done anything to bring them forward. Even if their deaths are to become part of the story, you would think some background on them would increase the emotional impact of such a loss. She went to a lot of trouble to develop cedric diggory as a pretty good fella in GOF before she knocked him off. But the truth of all of these arguements is that your guess is every bit as valid as mine. Thats what makes this series so rare and wonderful

oldmuggle: Well, see that bit there raises my alert more. JKR isn't going to give away her plot, so when she wrinkles her nose and says something to the effect of "Oh, they're just dentists, nothing interesting about them!" I get suspicious. She could have just said "Well, we might see them again" or "They haven't been needed in the plot" or something to that effect, but that answer there raises a red flag, as if she's trying to throw us off the trail.

As for the emotional impact of their death, well JKR may not need for us to really know them, because the impact would be seen on Hermione's character.

But the truth of all of these arguements is that your guess is every bit as valid as mine. Thats what makes this series so rare and wonderful

Too true! I hope I'm right though! :p

chop, I'm going to make this quick, but there may be indications of future feelings developing between Harry and Hermione, and in Hermione's case, already there and she could be fully aware of it.

During the post-kiss scene she acted in ways that these descriptors were used for her: frowning, distantly, vaguely, briskly, businesslike.

Following this post-kiss scene, she stopped giving any advice to Harry regarding Cho until the relationship was down the drain.

Following Harry turning up early for the meeting with Rita and without Cho, and the following morning seeing them not talk to each other and Cho pass straight by Harry, sitting with her back to him, she asks "brightly" how the date went. This is contrary to Hermione's usually observant and very intelligent character if she didn't know the date flopped.

These things, in combination with various Krum-related portions of GOF seem to suggest that Hermione may already like Harry. Something which she may not have been aware of during GOF, but over the course of OOTP realised for herself, truly coming to light upon learning that Harry and Cho had gone beyond a mere crush and had shared a kiss. This also explains here distanced behaviour during the post-kiss scene.

On Harry's side, JKR showed us how:
1) He has a part of his mind that speaks in Hermione's voice
2) In one of Harry's dreams, Cho (Harry's crush) turns into Hermione.

This could quite easily be showing who is really in Harry's subconcious, thereby showing who he may like deep down although conciously, he may not realise it yet.

Fair point Sirius83. But what does this have to do with Harry and Hermiones chances of getting together?? *Rereads sirius' post*

Well Parvati for me it shows that Harry and Hermione's relationship is growing. That does not absolutely mean they will get together but OOTP is the second time that their relationship has raised eyebrows amongst those who would like to be their significant others including Ron.

I think all you Harry/Hermione supporters are trying to read too deeply into the books. Remember, these books are still classified as "children's novels." I doubt seriously there will be any major turn of events to suggest anything other than that it will be Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione. The clues are there and they're quite obvious. Anything else is just wishful thinking. Q.E.D.

Way to go xray LOL
That won't feed any fires. Seriously. This thing could break any direction. I freely admit that if its anybody for Harry besides Ginny or Hermione I'll be seriouslt disappointed. Those of you who ship Luna or Parvatti or Buckbeak I apologize but i want our hero to find his lady among those to which we are familiar with. I don't want any last minute shocks. But the canon and external evidence points to one of two main ladies as Harry's love interest. The relationships are growing and only time will tell who it will be. What a ride we all have in store.

I wouldn't oldmuggle. I would laugh. It would be a funny twist to all of this debating. To be perfectly honest, I have no problem with x-ray's post except it terribly underestimates the intelligence of the children who read these books.

What diference does it make how much time she talk with one and the other? Those are silly details that really has no point.

Oh yes it does;everything little thing counts, especially when they relate to the portrayal of the trio's internal friendships. Hermione's spending more time with Harry that Ron shows that either she believes Harry is right and sides with him, or that she simply likes Harry's companionship better than Ron.


You need to clarify this you are contradicting yourself there either she knew or didn't know.

I am not contridicting myself in anyway. It is quite simple actually.

1) Hermione doesn't know about Harry and Ron's fight the previous night when the Gryffindors were celebrating on Harry winning the 4th spot for the TWT
2) Hermione finds out the next morning from Ron in the Great Hall over breakfast
3) Hermione took a stack of toast to seek Harry.

What is so difficult about that? It is pretty logical after all.

If she already had breakfast and knew that he wasn't there it doesn't require a genious to know that Harry hasn't had breakfast. This shows logic, yes it's nice that she brough him toast.

I'm not sure whether she had breakfast or not, or whether she took a stack of toast for herself and Harry to eat while they were walking. On the otherhand, while it doesn't take a genious to figure out that Harry isn't at breakfast, it does take someone who understands Harry to realize that Harry doesn't want to come to breakfast because he hates the attention. It does take someone
who had little knowledge of how Harry actually felt about his nomination for the TWT to deduce the fact that Harry didn't like the attention. I mean Ron, certainly, thought that Harry enjoyed all the attention. It takes someone special to realize how Harry really felt about the TWT.


Why not?! Oh please! If we are going to nitpick let's see Hermione says she SAW Ron at breakfast. Perhaps she talked with him in another place.

I was merely responding to your orginial post which states that Hermione talked "fully" with Ron before she sought after Harry. I was merely contrasting the time and place of the situation to point out that she couldn't have had a heart to heart with him. Furthermore, it is illogical to say that Hermione had a chat with Ron any other place (if there was even a chat at all) than the breakfast table because cannon specifically states that Hermione met Ron in breakfast, and Hemione also brought toast from the breakfast table, and Hermione met Harry just when he was going to the Great Hall. So time-wise, Hermione couldn't have chatted with Ron anywhere else on that morning.

She is justifying on Harry's eyes Ron's reasons to be jealous and angry etc..

She is *not* justifying to Ron, simply because she doesn't think that he's *right* Would you defend something when you specifically disagree with it? Then I should see you defending H/Hr rather than H/G.


Colin Creevey says that he is rarely seen without the company of Hermione. If I remember correctly they were looking spells for the 1st task. Off course he was with him! Didn't Harry asked for her help on the summoning charm?

But does Colin Creevey hang out in the library 24/7? Because Harry and Hermione certainly didn't. So that means that he sees them together everywhere else too.


Yet she knew that Ron missed Harry. Unless Ron told him straight out (which I doubt) that he missed Harry she must have spent enough time with him to know this. Unless we want to make of Hermione a clairyvoyant.

She said that "You miss him" to Harry. Very confident and straightfoward. It is not stated as an opinion like "I think you miss him" or "In my opinion, you miss him" or even "It seems that you miss him." On the otherhand, her quote about Ron is "I know he misses you too." It is stated as an opinion, not a fact. No one is arguing that she doesn't spend time with Ron at all, because she was going backwards and forwards, but I am arguing that she spent most of her time with Harry.

No it isn't stretching it. I've read that part quite a few times and she doesn't show any understanding to Harry. Is one of the scenes in which IMO clearly Hermione failed on Harry's emotional side. She clearly tries for Harry to get with Ron not Ron with Harry. She tells him to ask him for his Owl, she tries for Harry to go to Ron. Not the other way around. IMO Hermione understood and justify in Harry's eyes Ron's views. She knew that Harry had not enter himself and sympathize. But she never understood him.

If Hermione doesn't understand Harry then why is she even there? Why isn't she like Ron and believe that Harry entered himself or that he likes the attention? After four years of friendship, I think it is safe to say that she understands him. IMO, she understands Ron too, but just not as deeply as Harry. Furthermore, I think text states that Hermione went back and forth, so I believe this debunks your theory that she is solely trying to get Harry to make-up to Ron. Certainly, she didn't say that Harry should apologize to Ron.

BTW, could you stop using the word "clearly"? because it really bugs me when it is not "clear" at all. Perhaps to you it is clear, but to some of us, it is still quite ambiguous. The words IMO and clearly are redundant when placed together, not to mention awkward.


Oh she "tries" not to take sides, but whose side did she stand by? Harry's.

Don't see this at all.

Perhaps you simply choose not to say it. My point is she "stood" by Harry's side (physically as well as emotionally)



I see a double standard with R/Hrs and H/Gers.
I see a double standard with H/Hr's.

You were the one to accuse the H/Hr's first, there is not need to repeat your accusations. We wouldn't want this to go in circles now would we.

To the contrary, Hermione doesn't mention Ron often. I believe she only mentioned him two or three times, and one of which was during the first walk around the lake where she told Harry that Ron's angry because he's jealous, and there is another mention of Ron prior to Hogsmeade, but I think it was actually Harry who brought up Ron, not Hermione.


Again above I posted more about this. I see her understanding Ron.

err... how. We agree on the fact that Hermione has understanding of her friends. IMO, she understands Harry a bit more...and your response doesn't really collaborate with my post...on the otherhand you don't really have to respond to every post.




Originally by Polaris:
Where?

CoS: Page 335:

"Well you see Lucious,: said Dumbledore, smiling serenely, "the other eleven governors contacted me today. It was somewhat like being caught in a hailstorm of owls, to tell the truth. They'd heard that Arthur Weasley's daughter had been killed and wanted me back here at once."

In here Dumbledore explain that the news of Arthur's Weasley's daughter being killed caused a quite a stir.

I think the word "killed" speaks for itself. It didn't matter whose daughter was killed. As long as someone is killed, it is a pretty big deal. Remember poor Moaning Mrytle? After she was killed, Hogwarts was threatened of closing down. However, Mrytle isn't even a pure-blood. So this quote adds no significance to how the Weasleys "specifically" are the most popular among the wizarding world.



CoS Page 336:

"And Imagine" Dumbledore went on. "What might have happend then. . . . The Weasley's are one of our most prominent pure blood families.

There are only so few pure-blooded families, but does that mean the Weasleys are well known or well liked? Nope. Although I love the Weasleys, I just think that it is stretching it to say that Ron Weasley is way more popular than Harry Potter any day.


When was Harry with Dean and Seamus in the GoF fight?

He didn't need to be; he has Hermione. After all, there is only one best friend on spare. So poor Ron had to find consolation with Dean and Seamus.



Do you have any evidence to say that these people hang out often with Ron, but not Harry, other than the time Harry and Ron were fighting?

When is Harry again hanging out with Dean or Seamus or anyone else that isn't Ron and Hermione? I think the only other person that he has talked briefly is Neville but very short in PoA.

You avoided my question. Gee I wonder why...


Err....purely speculation. Furthermore, if Ron is sooo much more popular and well-liked and well-known than Harry, then why in the world does he feel overshadowed and jealous?!


Because he does! Being popular doesn't mean that they don't have flaws.

Huh????? He *does* feel overshadowed, and because of this, he has a ...flaw???? okie dokie...



That's not abandoning that's making more ample your horizons.

But does she? She seems close as ever with Harry and Ron in OotP.


She is more 'responsable' because she is probably and only child. But in many ways Hermione is like every other girl. I will look for it. I don't have it on my file.

Aren't you stating it backwards? Don't people who have many siblings are more mature than an only child since he/she have to take care of their younger siblings? Anyway, I'm still waiting for JKR's quote. When you find it, please, show it to me.


What was the point in all that? Isn't this Harry's point of view? Aren't they looking for hexes in the library?

But JKR could've easily place other people's POV in through other means. For example, Colin Creevey's view is put in through Rita Skeeter...I'm sure if Colin Creevey had said that Hermione is playing Harry, Krum, and Ron, the paper would be way more juicy than it is. However, apparently Hermione didn't spend that much time with Ron for others to be suspicious of. This simply shows that Hermione spent more time with Harry in GoF than she did with Ron.


I think that Harry needs that people (including Dumbledore) gets off his life. Telling him what to do won't help him, it will harm more. Like it did in OoP. He needs to grow up on his own and on his terms. Telling a person constantly what to do and where to go is the easiest way of harming them. They never learn to do things on their own and to be themselves. IMO

Oh yeah, Harry learned all right, but poor Sirius...he's just the first victim of Harry's foolish, headstong, albeit noble actions.


Thechnical support yes. Being a friend by believing in him yes. Emotional support I have not seen Hermione in that area with Harry.

IMO, just by being a friend and believing in him when the whole school did not shows Hermione supporting Harry emotionally. After all, Hermione was slandered by Rita Skeeter as a scarlet woman for being by Harry's side so often and told off by other students (Malfoy) for supporting Harry. She could've let Harry deal with the slanders alone, but did she abandon him in times of need? No. Did she dessert him after getting mockings and tauntings? No. She stood by him and supported him emotionally. I honestly think that Harry would not have withstood the slandering without Hermione by his side.





Just a question doesn't OoP count. IMO Ron provided to Harry a lot of support in that time. In fact I have always seen Ron provided a lot of support to Harry. Even in GoF.

Ron supported Harry too much in OotP. In fact it was more like passive agreement to everything. How in the world did Ron support Harry *alot* in GoF? He was absent from Harry the first part of the book for his jealousy of Harry's fame. He came around after the first task; onward then, Hermione and Ron supported him equally. This doesn't brandish Ron's support in any way.

In OoP Harry was annoyed with Hermione more times than usual. Several times in OoP. I have always said that OoP meant a some rifts in the H/Hr friendship and they do need a lot of healing. They are still good friends.

OotP displays a rift with Harry and Hermione? Where did you get that? First of all, Harry was annoyed with *everyone* and secondly, Harry was annoyed with Hermione because she is willing to challenge him to think twice before acting. Harry truly needs this because Harry is too impulsive sometimes. OotP only cemented Harry and Hermione's friendship even more; the two is becoming increasingly closer and closer. Although there is still room to grow, to say that they have become further apart is simply ludicrous.


Why should she go to comfort him? Why must she be on his side comforting him? Hermione is Harry's friend. That's why she is there. Ginny at that point wasn't Harry's friend.

Exactly. So we agree. In GoF, Harry and Ginny are solely aquaintances.


IYO to me I saw Hermione and Ginny's friendship probably coming ever since PoA.

Quotes? Evidence? I certainly didn't see any interacting beside the one on the train.



They are nice friends but the brightest. . .

Apparently you didn't get my metaphor. I didn't mean their intelligence (Hermione *is* intelligent after all.) but I meant that their friendship certainly jumps out and stands out from the rest of the friendships.





Your writting style is unique they way things are portrait is Unique the names are probably Unique. But certainly all general plot lines have done. Hero gets hero (girl), hero gets the girl, hero alone, hero the girl dies. All couples in the HP world are cliche because all have been done over and over, and over.

Yet the style on getting them together are quite different with each author...^_^

I think all you Harry/Hermione supporters are trying to read too deeply into the books. Remember, these books are still classified as "children's novels." I doubt seriously there will be any major turn of events to suggest anything other than that it will be Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione. The clues are there and they're quite obvious. Anything else is just wishful thinking. Q.E.D.

okay, i'm 12, still a child right? i personally see all the harry and hermione hints and buildup and do think ron/hermione and harry/ginny has very little chance of happening, imo. I'm not reading the books and thinking ron and hermione will happen because it's the obvious choice, because that's not how jkr writes. if it was, snape would have been the villian in the first book, malfoy would have been the heir of slytherin in book 2, sirius would have been a villian in book 3, and moody would have been the real moody in book 4 if it was. and once again, reading deeply into the books is how you figure things out-if it wasn't, jkr wouldn't be a very good writer. Also, you don't think it's reading too deeply into the books to claim ginny still has feelings for harry when canon clearly says she doesn't?

You guys have a little problem and thats I never said its romantically. Not once. Heck I never did write it since I'm at this thread. So I mean it as path, as way to go or write or forshadow or better explain H/Hr in future books. This path don't need to be romantically.

But isn't this the romance thread?? That scene can only be a path for a friendship, it would have been unrealistic to make Hermione become friends with Harry so easily, because if right now, Harry doesn't understand her completely, and he is her friend at this point, then why would he do that earlier in the books...

Why is Hermione so **** important if she is just Harrys friend and Ron's futur wife? Why is she so **** important for Harry that JKR need to show that at Halloween, a day which changed his live forever, Hermione steps into his live? Thats like I meet a boy at the day as I lost the dearest what I had. If this isn't symbolic, foreshadowing than I'm utterly lost.


There's no need to curse or anything...So you mean, if Hermione does end up with Ron, then she is totally an unworthy charachter, and only if she does end up with Harry she will be important......I totally disagree then...

So you like still the one you falled with 14 or 10? And you never did change your thinking about a person and you was never annoyed, especially annoyed by the person you loved?


So first, you guys say the "annoyed" has already been discussed and it's not arguable and that Harry was wrong bla bla......but then you say this...
Just because some people do fall in love with someone they didn't like before, doesn't mean H/Hr will happen......so, some people fall in love with their best friends mothers, so that makes it possible for Harry to end up with Mrs. Weasley.....that image is very disturbing but im trying to make an example here....I'm not comparing Hermione to Molly but still...

You aren't interested till 14 in girls and than its starts. You see them in a new light.


I'm not sure i understand.....you are saying Harry is starting to fall for Hermione now?? ......where is it??

If Hermione is meant to also be simply a sidekick, Harrys other best friend, why the need for a special scene?

So Ron being a friend of Harry's is not as special?? Ron and Harry get along much better than Hermione and Harry......

Even up to the end of OOTP, all she was is Ron's sister as Harry nicely puts it in his argument with Ron and Hermione before going to the MoM.

He just says he saved Ron's sister....which is true....or isn't Ginny, Ron's sister...and H/G are very good friends...

Exactly. As we consider H/Hr to be a part of the plot, having Harry and Hermione going off on adventures alone without Ron is part of building up towards H/Hr.

THAT means H/Hr will end up together??................. :rolleyes:

Of course not, but Harry doesn't do this with Ron. That's what makes it different. We have a very nice way of comparing friendly and more-than-friendly moments

We were talking about GOF and he did think about writing to Ron......


It has been said several times over. What we are saying is that JKR has provided the buildup of H/Hr since book one. We do not claim that JKR had Harry like Hermione romantically since book one.

Then why do the build-up for Ron/Hr then...
Because, Harry doesn't like Hermione. You say she does like him....but then she shows certain signs for Ron and Ron obviously does....So IF you were right, they would both be in the same position....That is very unlikely.

Thanks Nia. Nice shooting there.

Great Posts Sirius 83, FP, evaluna, and the crew of the HMS Harmony!!!!

:welcome: Prancer, oldmuggle, Hawkmoon, and xray.

Might as well answer 2 posts at the same time.

c) Deductive way: First I try to find all facts relating to the subject I'm studying. Second I try to imagine all possible theories related to the subject. Third I confront every theory with all facts and see wich theory can explain all (and I mean ALL) facts. If I can't (happens 99.9% of the times) I have two alternatives:
1) Try to find a new theory explaining ALL facts.
2) Try to find wich theory explain the most important facts (and not the higher number of facts as many may think), so I have to weight the facts and see wich theory explain more facts weight. (Absolutely no one is using this approach in this forum)

Lets begin with this,

HERMIONE/FLEUR - JEALOUS OR DISLIKE?

Now I've heard alot about how Hermione is jealous of Fleur and Ron flirting and I've heard how its because Ron is superficial. But I have a different theory I think that Hermione simply does not like Fleur.

Now to prove this I turn to the text,

Gof pg 250-251 US.

"Good evening, ladies and genltemen, ghosts and -most particularly-guests,"said Dumbledore, beaming around at the foreign students. "I have great pleasure in welcoming you all to Hogwarts. I hope and trust that your stay here will be both comfortable and enjoyable."
One of the Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her head gave what was unmistakeably a derisive laugh.
"No one's making you stay!" Hermione whispered, bristling at her.

Gof pg 252 US

It was the girl from Beauxbatons who had laughed during Dumbledore's speech. She had finally removed her muffler. A long sheet of silvery-blonde hair fell almost to her waist. She had large, deep blue eyes, and very white, even teeth.

The girl is of course Fleur. After this paragraph Ron begins to flirt with Fleur.

Now lets analyze this....

1) Dumbledore is giving a welcoming speech
2) A Beauxbaton girl gives a derisive laugh
3) Hermione gets mad at that girl
4) JKR points out that Fleur was the one to laugh at Dumbledore's speech
5) Ron flirts with Feur

1) Nothing much here Dumbledore is extending the best hospitality and is being a gracious and welcoming host.

2) A derisive laugh is a scornful contemptable laugh. This Beauxbaton girl is scorning and treating with contempt Hogwarts and Dumbledore acts of hospitality. Please note that JKR makes sure that we know that it is an "unmistakeably a derisive laugh." JKR wants to drive it home.

3)Hermione becomes mad at the girl for being scornful of her school (which she cares about) and Dumbledore (whom she respects). Hermione dislikes this girl and her attitude.

4) JKR makes the connection for us that the girl who laughed is Fleur. We are never left to wonder who the girl is who laughed. JKR makes sure that we know that Fleur is the girl who Hermione was mad at for acting scornful of Hogwarts and Dumbledore. There is no debate at all here.

5) Ron acts flirty with a girl who acts scornful of their school and their Headmaster. And Ron calls Hermione the traitor later. Kinda hypocritical don't you think but thats not relavant here.

Now JKR makes sure that we know that Fleur has done something before Ron flirts with her. And JKR makes sure that we know that Hermione does not care for Fleur for her attitude towards Hogwarts and their teacher.

Now if the Ron/Fleur interaction is to make us aware of Hermione's jealousy then why does JKR make sure that we know that Hermione has a reason to, and a dislike, of Fleur before she shows us any interaction between Ron and Fleur?

Oh and xray I hope that you will take notice that I didn't have to read anything into this. I just had to notice the clues as they were written.

Cheers!

I have been reading in here, but not posting since, well, kinda going in circles most of the time I think... but just somethings that caught my attention today.
1) What were you expecting to happen with the romances before OOTP?
I was not expecting romances but, glares here and there and hints as usual... and some developing in H/Hr friendship and I got it :evil:
2) Did JKR's treatment of Harry and of Ron's character and R/Hr surprise you?
Harry's reality did surprised me a little bit, in a great way, I loved it, he is so 15! Ron's character was as always great too, but didn't surprise me at all.
3) What are you expecting to happen in the next book?
I expect to know more about Lily, her eyes and her wand and James; more about the prophecy; the Harry/Dumbledore relationship (why Dumbledore loves Harry so much?apart him just being good and all); Harry's powers (what else can this boy do?); more on the Order; Voldemort; why does Snape hates Harry so much and Harry and Hermione glancing at each other every now and then of course.
4) Is there a sharp left, surprising turn JKR could make (similar to (2) IMO)?
lots of them!!! everywhere...

FlyingPhoenix Why is Hermione so **** important if she is just Harrys friend and Ron's futur wife? Why is she so **** important for Harry that JKR need to show that at Halloween, a day which changed his live forever, Hermione steps into his live? Thats like I meet a boy at the day as I lost the dearest what I had. If this isn't symbolic, foreshadowing than I'm utterly lost. Just exaclty what I would have said with the beeps and everything... :elaugh:
FlyingPhoenixSorry, but you can't because Ginny wasn't awake.:lol:

prancer I think all you Harry/Hermione supporters are trying to read too deeply into the books. Just us?? R/Hr are posting their theories too, and to have theories you just have to read too deeply.
ana_banana So you mean, if Hermione does end up with Ron, then she is totally an unworthy charachter, and only if she does end up with Harry she will be important.....
that was never said if I read FlyingPhoenix correclty...
So first, you guys say the "annoyed" has already been discussed and it's not arguable and that Harry was wrong bla bla......but then you say this...
Just because some people do fall in love with someone they didn't like before, doesn't mean H/Hr will happen......so, some people fall in love with their best friends mothers, so that makes it possible for Harry to end up with Mrs. Weasley.....that analogy was really confusing :huh:
I'm not sure i understand.....you are saying Harry is starting to fall for Hermione now?? ......where is it??I think it's always talked about how Harry is noticing Hermione's friendship to be really important to him, and such but not that Harry is "falling" for Hermione, yet, working on it...
and H/G are very good friends...silly me, I must have read the wrong books, because I don't recall Ginny and Harry sharing their ideas and thoughts on daily basis... like close buddies or anything... never read Harry saying "oh I have to talk to Ginny about this right now"...
Then why do the build-up for Ron/Hr then...
Because, Harry doesn't like Hermione. You say she does like him....but then she shows certain signs for Ron and Ron obviously does....So IF you were right, they would both be in the same position....That is very unlikely.
Uhh, thats indeed what makes everything so interesting, thanks God!! and JK knows it, yes, she is totally giving us wings to have some fun here.

Nice night!!!! :)

I think all you Harry/Hermione supporters are trying to read too deeply into the books. Remember, these books are still classified as "children's novels." I doubt seriously there will be any major turn of events to suggest anything other than that it will be Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione. The clues are there and they're quite obvious. Anything else is just wishful thinking. Q.E.D.
Well actually i'm not reading too deeply into it at all, i see Harry and Hermione much clearer than i see R/Hr and i can't for the life of me see H/G, in fact i'm going to go as far as to say that the H/G communty are the ones reading too deeply into the text, IMO there is nothing in the books that H/G have done together that H/Hr haven't done better.

Well actually i'm not reading too deeply into it at all, i see Harry and Hermione much clearer than i see R/Hr and i can't for the life of me see H/G, in fact i'm going to go as far as to say that the H/G communty are the ones reading too deeply into the text, IMO there is nothing in the books that H/G have done together that H/Hr haven't done better.

I just agree.

But isn't this the romance thread?? That scene can only be a path for a friendship, it would have been unrealistic to make Hermione become friends with Harry so easily, because if right now, Harry doesn't understand her completely, and he is her friend at this point, then why would he do that earlier in the books...

I tell you what a thread this is :Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom part five. You see this little word will thats future and not present. So what I do is exactly what people do expect if they read this thread. I do write Who will fall in love with whom? And I say It will be H/Hr. I don't say they are already madly in love but they will thats a little if not a huge different to R/Hr. They say they are already in love with each other.

There's no need to curse or anything...So you mean, if Hermione does end up with Ron, then she is totally an unworthy charachter, and only if she does end up with Harry she will be important......I totally disagree then...
I didn't really curse I can tell you what I said "d-a-m-n" this isn't really cursing.
I don't know why you answer my questions with a statement how I see in your opinion R/Hr? I mean I did speak about the Halloween scene and not what kind off character Hermione would be if she falls for Ron. Can you tell me how you come to that conclusion and why you can't explain why JKR did make this scene that important?

Just because some people do fall in love with someone they didn't like before, doesn't mean H/Hr will happen......so, some people fall in love with their best friends mothers, so that makes it possible for Harry to end up with Mrs. Weasley.....that image is very disturbing but im trying to make an example here....I'm not comparing Hermione to Molly but still...

I think I lost you here...

I'm not sure i understand.....you are saying Harry is starting to fall for Hermione now?? ......where is it??

Yeah I saying this. You know not everybody jumps out and screems "I'm in love" from one moment to another. Its slowly and that Harry thinks a lot about and hears a lot Hermione in his mind this isn't something what you do about your best friend. I never heard from a 15 year old boy that his mind sounds like his best female friend. Really If a guy comes and tells me this I did suspect does he like that girl?

So Ron being a friend of Harry's is not as special?? Ron and Harry get along much better than Hermione and Harry......
Why does you bring Ron in this? It wasn't about Ron. Ron is mean to be Harrys best friend. Hermione is mean to be at one point change from best friend into love-intress.

He just says he saved Ron's sister....which is true....or isn't Ginny, Ron's sister...and H/G are very good friends...

I did miss something in this books. H/g are very good friends? Let say friends and not very good friends.


Then why do the build-up for Ron/Hr then...
Because, Harry doesn't like Hermione. You say she does like him....but then she shows certain signs for Ron and Ron obviously does....So IF you were right, they would both be in the same position....That is very unlikely.

Hermione don't shows signs to like Ron more as a friend. As to R/Hr building up. Did you ever hear JKR's statement about Red-hearings? This is probably the biggest redhearing in this books.

I was thinking after reading Nia's posts going over the H/Hr development about how JKR planned out the series.
We know she went over it all exhaustively before starting to write.
She initially thought of Harry and pretty soon after Ron. She was asked why wasn't Harry a girl and said she did think of it a bit further down the track but at that stage (I'm paraphrasing) she already had Hermione and she was 'essential to the whole plot'.
I was thinking about that sequence: she dreams up her hero, and then it's a short jump to think of 'hero's best friend'. But what's the next logical step? 'Hero's love interest'.
That has to be someone the author would think of early once she had the basic outline, since that person automatically has to be important to the series. When she thinks 'well why not a heroine rather than a hero', it's Hermione and the importance of her role that she thinks of.
In contrast Ginny would be a character an author would think of once she's sketched out the first few main characters: 'one of the Weasleys, Harry's favourite family'. At the very, very least after Harry, Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, Hagrid and the Dursleys. And likewise, Luna is a character she must have thought of once the MAIN plot details had been sketched, simply because she wasn't planned to be introduced until the fifth book.
I'm not saying they aren't important. I'm just looking at the possible thought process here and I believe those characters are most likely to have been thought of as the wizarding world and plot was being fleshed out.

Agree with you Turambar thats exactly like an author think. I mean I wouldn't think first at my hero than his best friend and at least the best friends love intress. Thats unlogical.

I bet you all know this quote "If Hermione Granger was your best friend there is..." from GoF. Do you see what I see? Its that Hermione wasn't Harrys best friend till GoF, thats why I write always best female friend. Heck, they didn't even speak really with each other till PoA. If you search after tension between Harry and Hermione you find it everytime they are alone.

Now back to Halloween. I did think about the pensieve scene from James and Lily and somehow I thought this reminds me at something. Thats the fact of how would be Harry if he had so lovely parents like James and didn't grow up like he did? You know if this Halloween did never happen? Than I'm sure Harry would be big headed like James.
Now If we say the Halloween day of 1981 did never happen how were Harrys live if the one of 1991 did never happen, too? How would be Harrys and Hermiones relationship? This leads me back how it was before they become friends. Don't you think as Hermione said "Its really selfish of you!" its sound like a younger vision off Lilys:" But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter.."?

I mean seriously if this had grown till 5th year I'm sure Hermione did sound like that, too.
I mean its like we see in a mirror of a different universum like it could have been for Harry. But this shows why Halloween is so important. It did change Harrys live complett. He is through this less like his father and he is friend with Hermione. There is the direct connection between Halloween 1981 and 1991.
This say if Halloween 1981 made Harry less like his father so there have to be on Halloween 1991 a scene where he becomes friend with Hermione.

I try to explain how this works in a strange mind of an author. Right let say H/Hr is bound to happen thats what JKR plan's all the way.
Naturelly as JKR did imagine or create this figures there was before or in the middle the idea of Lily and James. We all know James looks like his son, right? This plays an important part in this game. She just did change in her mind Harrys fait what happened at Halloween and how he would be. This say this way she did create James character. She didn't just change Harrys fait in her mind she did it with his name, too. Now James character was ready. But how create Lily? There comes Hermione into play and how she react to Harry before Halloween. Thats exactly the point where JKR start to change Hermiones fait, too. What would happen if Halloween 1981 and 1991 never did happen? We would have Lily and James alias Harry and Hermione.
Hermione would indeed think a lot more extrem about Harry and think exactly like Lily did in the pensieve.

This say as Halloween 1981 did happen in JKRs story Halloween 1991 was bound to happen, too. Because Harry need to become friend with Hermione. He need her badly because of Halloween 1981. This means because of the dead of his parents he need Hermiones frriendship and not a relationship which is like between enemys or like Lilys and James in there time. James didn't need Lily that early because he had a family and not to worry that Voldemort might kill him.

I hope you understand now why I see a connection between L/J and H/Hr.
Thats why I do think Halloween can be called as a day as Harry lost love and found love again

Daveydee: we were discussing whether the perceived deepening in the friendship between Harry and Hermione is just that or whether plot demands make it appear so.

My counterarguments:


Originally Posted by me, Nia
If one looks at Harry and Hermione’s relationship with a non-judgmental eye, in terms of a totality rather than piecemeal book-by-book, it is quite easy to see an unusual growth and development.

Daveydee:
You gave several examples, culminating in this:


Originally Posted by me:
In OoP, Hermione has anticipated Harry’s rage and has developed a degree of empathy that exceeds Dumbledore’s.

Daveydee:
Now this is where my point is made pertinent – Dumbledore’s apparent lack of empathy with Harry in OotP was critical to the whole plot of the book. Absolutely central. Hermione’s degree of empathy is therefore perceived as greater than it might otherwise be. I do agree that the friendship between the two has increased depth and breadth over the years, as is natural between friends. But I think that it is because of the plotting structure that this is so; I am not of the belief that the plot is built around this premise.


My remarks did not have to do with Dumbledore’s unwillingness to speak to Harry face to face, which is a critical plot issue, as much as his not understanding Harry the person as well as Hermione. He was unable to correctly predict how Harry would behave under the circumstances he himself had set in place.

Ch. 4, “Number Twelve Grimmauld Place” P 63, American Version
“Oh yeah,” Harry said. “Sorry about that, but I wanted answers, you know…”
“We wanted to give them to you, mate,” said Ron. “Hermion was going spare, she kept saying you’d do something stupid if you were stuck all on your own without news, but Dumbledore made us—“

And, Dumbledore admits his mistake at the end by telling Harry that he has forgotten what it is like to be young:
Ch 37 “The Lost Prophesy” P 826, American Version
“Harry, I owe you an explanation,” said Dumbledore. “An explanation of an old man’s mistakes, For I see now that what I have don and not done, with regard to you, bears all the hallmarks of the failings of of age. Youth cannot know how age thinks and feels. But old men are guilty if they forget was it was to be young.”


Originally Posted by Daveydee,
You say that you see a growing bond between Harry and Hermione which provides you with the self-evident conclusion that they are ultimately to be romantically paired.

To which I replied:

Originally Posted by me,
No, I would never presume to say I knew anything to do with the ships beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Daveydee:
I aplologise if I misunderstood, but my remark (above) was in response to this :

Originally Posted by me
Given no startling twists or surprises in her narrative, H/Hr is self-evident to me.

Daveydee: which was from your previous post.


I’ve noticed a distinct pattern on this thread to ignore qualifiers placed into statements, especially regarding H/Hr. :)

You will notice that I qualified my statement with “Given no startling twists or surprises”. A startling twist or surprise, as I indicated in my response to Turmabar, would be for me a sudden deepening of the Ron and Hermione relationship OR Harry developing a regard for Luna which exceeds his current regard for Hermione. Either one of those developments would throw a gremlin in the works.

Concerning the natural process of deepening friendship:

Originally Posted by me:
No, it is not so natural. Kids, especially, grow apart as they grow up, they find new interests. Unless you live in a tiny community where choices are limited, as you change, your friends change. A question for you to ponder? How many of the kids you were close friends with you at eleven are still your close friends?

Daveydee’s response:
Well actually I am still close friends with one – but overlooking that I understand what you are trying to say.

That, generally is most certainly true, when one leaves school. Whilst at school, however, it’s a different matter. As an ex-boarding school boy, I can say without a shadow of doubt, that friendships with individuals deepened and strengthened immeasurably over the course of my 7 years at school. I’m quite sure the same would be true of other schools.


I still affirm, however, that Harry and Hermione’s relationship goes beyond a normal close friendship. She obsesses over his state of well-being, she has broken rules, attacked a teacher, skipped homework and study time, been up until all hours for Harry. I think that qualifies as going a bit beyond what is normal friendship.


Originally Posted by me:
Of course, I could most certainly be dead wrong and JKR could spring one of those teen film love story moments on us, pair up Ron and Hermione, and turn the romance issue into a horribly banal cliché.


Daveydee’s response:
You refer to it as ‘the romance issue’. There need not be only one. What you wish to see for Harry in terms of love and redemption and what others see as a sickly sweet boyfriend/girlfriend pairing of Ron and Hermione are not mutually exclusive events.


I don’t quite catch your intent here. If my preferred scenario plays out along with all of its symbolic references, there cannot be a Ron/Hermione relationship. Of course, if you are referring to a possible Harry and Luna, then, of course a Ron and Hermione relationship could also develop, but that wouldn’t make it any more intellectually appealing to me.

I don’t believe that Ron and Hermione would be sickly sweet, (well, maybe just :lol: ) but it would be hackneyed and banal and not worth discussing in any forum since it is the romantic standard in current teen books and teen movies and teen advice columns, ad nauseum. There would be nothing intellectual to discuss. It would be like every other cute teen moment I’ve read, maybe funny and bittersweet, but ultimately without substance, like cotton candy (I believe in England it is called candy floss).

Daveydee:
I wonder whether the secret feminist in you is mistakenly placing Hermione as the central character in all this.

Ha, ha, ha.

But, seriously, I think that the way the media, and this includes print media, portrays young people’s feelings is very trite and very, very banal in general. I see this (H/Hr) relationship as rising above that expected norm. Harry and Hermione are two outsiders who never quite fit into this extraordinary wizarding world of theirs. Because of this, they see things from a different perspective than their mutual friend, Ron. They become friends under the most extraordinary of circumstances and develop, through the course of their friendship, a deepening respect and regard for each other. They esteem each other’s superlative talents while, at the same time, regarding each other’s basic humanity and inherent compassion. This is something you don’t see all the time. Now, were JKR to write their relationship as a key to destroying Voldmort’s poisonous evil, it would have tremendous symbolic implications.

A Ron and Hermione romance, on the other hand, whether they learn to compromise or not, has no implications for anything greater because the Weasley’s are already muggle-lovers. And, despite the taint of the movies on canon discussions, Hermione was never offended by Malfoy’s “mudblood” remarks. It would be a meaningless little romance and that is all it would be. Satisfying, perhaps for those who mistakenly see Ron as the underdog, but not for anyone who hopes for something more substantive and meaningful from all of this.

Cheers,
Nia

Hello everyone. I want to make some answers to previous posts.

Answer to Sone:
You say"Hawkmoon, I am not sure which Spanish translation you have, but in the english and UK version, Cho did indeed turn into Hermione."
Sorry, I must have commit a mistake. The spanish versions I was talking about are the oficial translations of the first four books. There is no spanish version of the fifth book, I have a copy in english. What I tried to say is that I cannot give textual evidence from the first books bc what i can say from them is my english version from the spanish traslation, so it would not fit with canon. Also, my spanish copy of book 5 is in my head, in the next weeks I will not give textual copies of fragments from the books bc I give my copy to a friend. The way I wrote the dream is how I remember it, and if someone disagree bc I comit a mistake , I would be glad to read a textual copy of the dream.
But i disagree. The role of Hermione in Harrys dream is not take Chos Place. Hermione apears not as a substitute of Cho, She is giving counseil about how to hadle this situation. Of course, I can be wrong, Its a interpretation of a dream.

Answer to Flying Phoenix

Hi, Flying Phoenix. Thanks for the welcome!. Sorry, but I disagree with some things on your post. You say...

You say: "I think we forgetting something and thats Harry didn't picture himself as Dobby"
Well, I think that Harry sees himself as Kreacher, not Dobby, bc he feels miserable. Dobby is now a happy free house elf, so Harry identifies himself with Kreacher. Also, I agree that in the conscious world, Hermione will be at Mrs.Weasleys side, crying at Kreachers death, but we are in Harrys subconscience and in this dream he sees Hermione as distant as Ron is, because he feels apart from both Ron and Hermy bc both have a recognition he didnt had.

Also, about the way the dream about Harrys love life can be rewritten to show romance to Hermione, You are right. Hermy will not ask for Harrys attention, but how about this way?.

Cho: Harry give me your collection
Harry: No, I wont
Hermione: Harry, give her your firebolt
Harry: No, I will give it to you!

See? In this way, Hermy could take Chos place in Harrys love life in his subconscience. But she didnt, in his dreams she gives him the correct advice in his relationship with Cho.
You are right too, in real world Hermy would not suggest Harry to give her a stinkbomb. But I think that if Harry did feel some signs of jealousy in Hermiones voice when she was giving him advice whith Cho, this could be foreshadowed in his dreams in some way. Well, it is my opinion ;)

About Rons attitude at Hermione, he has a protective actitude at her through the whole series, not only when Malfoy call her Mudblood. There are many examples, lets see some of them. When Malfoy says in Cos that he wishes the beast of the Chamber would kill Hermy like in the past killed Mirtle, Ron erupts with anger. This happens twice in the book and is kept in the movie when Harry and Ron are with Crabbe and Goyles faces. Also, In Poa and Gof, Ron faces Snape when he insults Hermione in front of the class . In Gof he did it with Harry but in Poa he is the one to answer Snape when he calls Hermione know-i-tall. I think it is established that Ron jumps in Hermiones defence when someone insults her. This means he have a bond with her, friendship maybe. And maybe the basis to something more! :) .


Hi, Sirius 83. I have read your posts with great interest. But, I disagree greatly with some things you say.

You say "Following this post-kiss scene, she stopped giving any advice to Harry regarding Cho until the relationship was down the drain"

well, Hermione gives Harry advice about Cho after the kiss scene. When the date on valentines day ends as a disaster, Hermione explains Harry (I think the book states that she talks to Harry like a teacher to a dense alumn) what he did wrong, what thinked Cho of Him, what was Cho trying to do and what Harry must have done. So, again, she gives him good advice that Harry didnt use to develop the relationship. IMO, Harry let the relationship die bc he is not really interested in the girl.

"2) In one of Harry's dreams, Cho (Harry's crush) turns into Hermione."

Again, I disagree, as I said before, in this dream Hermione did not take Chos place, she is giving Harry advice about Cho, not taking her place. But a dream is something very confusing




Ok, I want to make a theory about why Rita Skeeter, Colin Creevey, Cho and Mrs Wesley thinked on book 4 about a love relationship between Harry and Hermione based on the interaction between the two of them.
Colin Creevey is Harrys fan. Rita is a journalist of a tabloid hunting a good story about Harry. Cho is a girl with a interest in Harry.
The way I read the book is that Hermione spent all her time with Harry and Ron. They are a trio. We know for sure she spents time alone with both boys, and they have a very close relationship. But, what did the rest of the school think about it?.
When Hermione , at the beginning of term in book 4, is trying to explain to Harry the feelings of Ron, she says something like "you know, Harry, when you are around, nobody notices Ron!" (again, translated from the spanish version). So, when Colin (harrys fan), Cho (a girl with a crush on Harry) Rita (on story hunting about Harry) see Harry, Hermione AND RON , they think that HARRY AND HERMIONE spent a lot of time TOGETHER. To these people, Ron is irrelevant.

Well, I think that Harry sees himself as Kreacher, not Dobby, bc he feels miserable. Dobby is now a happy free house elf, so Harry identifies himself with Kreacher. Also, I agree that in the conscious world, Hermione will be at Mrs.Weasleys side, crying at Kreachers death, but we are in Harrys subconscience and in this dream he sees Hermione as distant as Ron is, because he feels apart from both Ron and Hermy bc both have a recognition he didnt had.

I agree he see himself as Kreacher because he feels miserable and because he feels unloved, misunderstand. Like I said Hermione is in Harrys dream out off character. This has a reason. I think Harry knows it would be Hermione who crys about Kreacher/Harry and not Mrs. Weasley. But his dream is false because he think or fears to lose this special plae to Ron. You say it right he see Ron and Hermione together away from him. They have both crowns on they head. See what I mean Harry can't deal with R/Hr. I mean he has already subconscience fears to stay alone and they aren't a couple yet. He picture himself as Kreacher. Now back in the real HP world. Kreacher is dislike by everyone, everybody hate him but not Hermione. She take it even that he calls her mudblood. There is a interesting paralell to the earlier fight between them. Harry did yell and scream but she didn't mind. She did understand him. He dreams to be Kreacher a houselve and as I know Harry know Hermiones passion is SPEW to free elves. Though he picture Hermione wrong because he think she would leave his side just to be with Ron but she wouldn't do this. See Harry want that she is at his side and fears that she isn't it anylonger. Fears to losing her. This gos through the whole book. This very fear, what do you think why he always want that she believe him and ask her so she has to say "I know!"? Because off this fears. If you look closer at this we had in GoF a Ron who called Harry a liar, in OotP nearlly the whole magical world think he is a liar. DD does avoid Harry, The weasleys have they own problems. Literary everybody turns around and Harrys fear is that Hermione does this too. For short Harry can still not believe that Hermione was the only one in GoF who did believe him, who did stand by his side. His mind search after holes, after possibles that she leaves him too. But she don't and this he can't probably explain. The last person who he thought who would turn did turn in GoF now Harry expect that at some place Hermione does this too. I tell you the next step after this phase of fears will be the phase "Why does she this?".

See? In this way, Hermy could take Chos place in Harrys love life in his subconscience. But she didnt, in his dreams she gives him the correct advice in his relationship with Cho.
You are right too, in real world Hermy would not suggest Harry to give her a stinkbomb. But I think that if Harry did feel some signs of jealousy in Hermiones voice when she was giving him advice whith Cho, this could be foreshadowed in his dreams in some way. Well, it is my opinion

Yeah, possible but not if Harrys mind does think or fear to lose Hermione. He wouldn't give her his firebolt if he think he would lose her.


About Rons attitude at Hermione, he has a protective actitude at her through the whole series, not only when Malfoy call her Mudblood. There are many examples, lets see some of them. When Malfoy says in Cos that he wishes the beast of the Chamber would kill Hermy like in the past killed Mirtle, Ron erupts with anger. This happens twice in the book and is kept in the movie when Harry and Ron are with Crabbe and Goyles faces. Also, In Poa and Gof, Ron faces Snape when he insults Hermione in front of the class . In Gof he did it with Harry but in Poa he is the one to answer Snape when he calls Hermione know-i-tall. I think it is established that Ron jumps in Hermiones defence when someone insults her. This means he have a bond with her, friendship maybe. And maybe the basis to something more

I disagree with you. In COS as Harry and Ron have used the polyjuice potion and are down in the dungeons with Malfoy Is what Malfoy says this "Saint Potter, the Mudblood's friend,""He's another one with no proper wizard feeling, or he wouldn't go around with that jumped up Granger Mudblood..." He says quiet often Mudblood.
GOF: I've just washed it, you see, don't want Mudblood sliming it up.
Ron didn't do anything.
GoF: If you think they can't spot a Mudblood...
Only after that Ron react before this as Malfoys said this with the knickers, Ron didn't do anything.
PoA: because every one of them had called Hermione a know-it-all at least once, and Ron, who told Hermione she was a know-it-all at least twice a week...
See this is nothing but guilt why Ron defend Hermione. He does insult her at least twice in a week.

Sirius83:

You could, but it would not be supported by canon. JKR didn't make any special issue with saying about how Ginny was now Harry's friend, etc etc etc. Additionally, after the Chamber, Ginny didn't become a close friend of Harry's in the least. Even up to the end of OOTP, all she was is Ron's sister as Harry nicely puts it in his argument with Ron and Hermione before going to the MoM. However, after the whole Troll incident, JKR made mention to say about how you can't help but be friends and state that Hermione was now a freind, then have her become very close to Harry. The troll scene is vastly different to the Chamber scene.

Even though this wasn't addressed to me, I would like to comment on it. The troll scene is different because it establishes the friendship between Harry, Ron and Hermione. Both Harry and Ron had contributed to saving Hermione from the troll.

In the chamber, Harry rescued Ginny one on one, and I feel there are more symbolically romantic images associated with this scene. Ginny's appearances in the next two books were extremely limited and when she did appear, her crush on Harry was mentioned and her disappointment at not going to the ball with harry was highlighted. Ginny keeps being associated with Harry romantically, whether directly on indirectly. Harry is friends with Ginny currently, though not on the same level of Ron and Hermione. I think the groundwork is laid out so that they can become better friends in the next two books.

We've been through the whole annoyed routine already. i have shown how Hermione does not annoy Harry most of the time and my fellow shippers have shown how on the occassions she has, it is because Harry knew she was right and felt guilty. If Hermione annoyed Harry almost all of the time, they would not be friends. As for Harry liking Hermione as a friend only, we have also shown where JKR has used both Harry's subconcious and the choice of Hermione's name (seems all the names in the books have a meaning related to that character!) to hint at a possible development of romantic feelings toward Hermione. We have also shown how Cho was what Harry eventually realised he did not want and how he felt that part of him was no longer there. Hermione and Cho provide a contrast.

I'm sorry, Sirius83, but I must have missed the argument on how Hermione's name is an indicator of how she would be linked as Harry's love interest. Would you be able to explain it for me, as this is a new argument I haven't heard yet!

Must dash, but AWESOME, truly brilliant posts, Harmony. Nia, FP, Hawk, Sirius, sone, Polaris, and everyone else, take a bow.

Prongs, I did some posts on that. Let me see if any remain, b/c a critical thread was deleted. Hermione's name has symbolic esoteric and mythological refs. If I can find this, I'll repost. Else, I'll try to reconstruct the main bits.
Cheers!

I agree with many about a Harry/Hermione relationship, but evidence is strong that Ron and Hermione like each other. I also think that Harry and Ginny would make an ok couple but Neville and Ginny would be better. Lets face it Harry has a lot on his plate right now, he might not end up with anyone.

Originally Posted by xray
I think all you Harry/Hermione supporters are trying to read too deeply into the books. Remember, these books are still classified as "children's novels." I doubt seriously there will be any major turn of events to suggest anything other than that it will be Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione. The clues are there and they're quite obvious. Anything else is just wishful thinking. Q.E.D.



Rowling has said a few times that she did NOT write these books for children, she wrote them to tell a story that came to her on a train ride. However she is delighted with children's response to them.

The desicion to market them towards children was made by her publishers (along with the desicion to have child and adult covers). She's also said that she doesn't write them with a focus group of 8-year-olds in mind.

You are right about there being clues. Unfortunately I don't think that they are as obvious as you state (that's simply wishful thinking). If they were then she wouldn't have felt the need (as she says in the Royal Albert Hall interview to explain OotP's length as her need to add clues so that no one could call her a "cheat" or to claim that she "sprung" it on us out of "nowhere"

i can't for the life of me see H/G, in fact i'm going to go as far as to say that the H/G communty are the ones reading too deeply into the text

You don't know each of us personally to say how deeply or not we read. I don't see H/Hr, which doesn't mean they won't happen, and you not seeing H/G doesn't mean it won't either. Neither you or me or anyone else here is God, as far as I'm concerned, so no one has mnipotent power to choose who in the world will Harry end with....

I tell you what a thread this is :Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom part five. You see this little word will thats future and not present. So what I do is exactly what people do expect if they read this thread. I do write Who will fall in love with whom? And I say It will be H/Hr. I don't say they are already madly in love but they will thats a little if not a huge different to R/Hr. They say they are already in love with each other.


You don't need to teach me english, thank you very much. So you say H/Hr....I say H/G....

I didn't really curse I can tell you what I said "d-a-m-n" this isn't really cursing.
I don't know why you answer my questions with a statement how I see in your opinion R/Hr? I mean I did speak about the Halloween scene and not what kind off character Hermione would be if she falls for Ron. Can you tell me how you come to that conclusion and why you can't explain why JKR did make this scene that important?

Sorry I though you said something else lol.
First of all, you said WHY IS SHE SO IMPORTANT IF SHE'0S NOT GOING TO END UP WITH HARRY.....I think Hermione can be important without ending up with Harry. And I never said I couldn't explain...although I'm not JK, I THINK the troll brought the three of them together, Ron might not be the principal character, but he's still in the story...

Yeah I saying this. You know not everybody jumps out and screems "I'm in love" from one moment to another. Its slowly and that Harry thinks a lot about and hears a lot Hermione in his mind this isn't something what you do about your best friend. I never heard from a 15 year old boy that his mind sounds like his best female friend. Really If a guy comes and tells me this I did suspect does he like that girl?

Don't generalize. I think Hermione's voice meant he had a constant reminder of him doing something wrong....but a contant nagging reminder doesn't mean romance.

Why does you bring Ron in this? It wasn't about Ron. Ron is mean to be Harrys best friend. Hermione is mean to be at one point change from best friend into love-intress.

Why do you keep saying Hermione is MEANT to be Harry's love interest....?? I mean, honestly, nobody knows that. We can only assume. I started saying the same thing as you because you guys started saying the Harmony will be there either we want it or not or something.......

Hermione don't shows signs to like Ron more as a friend. As to R/Hr building up. Did you ever hear JKR's statement about Red-hearings? This is probably the biggest redhearing in this books.

Now are you 100% sure R/Hr are some sort of mistake made by everyone, including JK who's said they're the ones with tension......Meaning romantic tension...

She initially thought of Harry and pretty soon after Ron. She was asked why wasn't Harry a girl and said she did think of it a bit further down the track but at that stage (I'm paraphrasing) she already had Hermione and she was 'essential to the whole plot'.
I was thinking about that sequence: she dreams up her hero, and then it's a short jump to think of 'hero's best friend'. But what's the next logical step? 'Hero's love interest'.
That has to be someone the author would think of early once she had the basic outline, since that person automatically has to be important to the series. When she thinks 'well why not a heroine rather than a hero', it's Hermione and the importance of her role that she thinks of.

NOBODY, except JK Rowling HERSELF can say how she THOUGHT of the stories, and you cannot guess that, especially since the 7 books aren't out yet....
I don't believe you can read minds, I can't explain how you came to that conclusion...

You don't know each of us personally to say how deeply or not we read. I don't see H/Hr, which doesn't mean they won't happen, and you not seeing H/G doesn't mean it won't either. Neither you or me or anyone else here is God, as far as I'm concerned, so no one has mnipotent power to choose who in the world will Harry end with....
Hey ana_banana, did you read what a H/G, R/Hr shipper wrote...
Originally Posted by xray
I think all you Harry/Hermione supporters are trying to read too deeply into the books. Remember, these books are still classified as "children's novels." I doubt seriously there will be any major turn of events to suggest anything other than that it will be Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione. The clues are there and they're quite obvious. Anything else is just wishful thinking. Q.E.D.
So can i ask you why your attacking me about this comment when i was merely defending my opinon against another post.
I'm not against Harry and Ginny, i just don't see as many clues to it as H/Hr, and your right i don't know you all personally and considering that many of you live across the other side of the world to me i doubt i ever will and because you don't know me personally how the hell do you know i'm not God? :eyebrows:

I was thinking that Harry has so much going on with this whole prophecy thing, that romance will take a back seat to everything else. He could be like Sirius and be the best friend to the married couple R/Hr. But if he does get involved I'm hoping for Ginny, because that would make him offically part of his favorite family. Luna and Neville also get my vote. Neville is going to invent some wonderful potion with his new little plant that will help those with spell damage. Good day to all!!

It's astounding how r/hr and h/g shippers blame Hermione no matter what the character does.

I resent this.

Prongs, I did some posts on that. Let me see if any remain, b/c a critical thread was deleted. Hermione's name has symbolic esoteric and mythological refs. If I can find this, I'll repost. Else, I'll try to reconstruct the main bits.

Just to add, Hermione's name means "loved by two" or something like that.


Well actually i'm not reading too deeply into it at all, i see Harry and Hermione much clearer than i see R/Hr and i can't for the life of me see H/G, in fact i'm going to go as far as to say that the H/G communty are the ones reading too deeply into the text, IMO there is nothing in the books that H/G have done together that H/Hr haven't done better.

Well I'm glad it's settled, I can't for the life of me see H/Hr and where it's coming from. Where have H/Hr been done anything better than H/G or R/Hr. This is all a matter of opinion but... back it up. :p

Just to add, the H/G community is reading too deeply into the text? At least there has been indication of something romantic happening between the two. Where's the romantic indication of H/Hr. Wait, don't answer that. I'll get a lot of symbolism, some long post probably that will take hours, well probably a minute to read and don't have time really. Don't think I'm getting snotty, 'cuz I'm not trying to be. :p

two days gone, new people, extremely long posts. :welcome: to all newbies.

EDIT: When Hermione , at the beginning of term in book 4, is trying to explain to Harry the feelings of Ron, she says something like "you know, Harry, when you are around, nobody notices Ron!" (again, translated from the spanish version). So, when Colin (harrys fan), Cho (a girl with a crush on Harry) Rita (on story hunting about Harry) see Harry, Hermione AND RON , they think that HARRY AND HERMIONE spent a lot of time TOGETHER. To these people, Ron is irrelevant.

:agree: That's true.

Nice Posts Turambar, Fp, Nia, Polaris 15, Narami, and the rest of the Harmony.

:welcome: Hawkmoon. Some nice posts there. I'd love to debate with you but the symbolism and dream interpetation are best left to experts such as Nia, Evaluna, FP, Turambar, Perdita, Sirius 83, well actually the rest of HMS Harmony is better at debating dreams and symbolism than I.

Ok, I want to make a theory about why Rita Skeeter, Colin Creevey, Cho and Mrs Wesley thinked on book 4 about a love relationship between Harry and Hermione based on the interaction between the two of them.
Colin Creevey is Harrys fan. Rita is a journalist of a tabloid hunting a good story about Harry. Cho is a girl with a interest in Harry.
The way I read the book is that Hermione spent all her time with Harry and Ron. They are a trio. We know for sure she spents time alone with both boys, and they have a very close relationship. But, what did the rest of the school think about it?.
When Hermione , at the beginning of term in book 4, is trying to explain to Harry the feelings of Ron, she says something like "you know, Harry, when you are around, nobody notices Ron!" (again, translated from the spanish version). So, when Colin (harrys fan), Cho (a girl with a crush on Harry) Rita (on story hunting about Harry) see Harry, Hermione AND RON , they think that HARRY AND HERMIONE spent a lot of time TOGETHER. To these people, Ron is irrelevant.

Lets take this person by person,

Colin Creevey - I agree with your theory. Colin's hero worship of Harry would blind him to Ron.

Rita Skeeter- Journalist after a big story. I don't think that the newspaper that she writes for is a tabloid but that's not the issue. Rita based her article on Colins' story and I didn't see anything else to suggest that she used other sources. While she does make references to other sources since she doesn't quote them or give a name one must seriously doubt that she used several sources. But don't fail to take into consideration that she knew that Hermione was muggleborn. I don't think that Colin would have reveled that. Colin is muggleborn himself and the fact that Hermione was muggleborn would not have mattered to Colin. That part most likely came from another source. One that had a dislike of muggles and their childern being at Hogwarts. As I have no solid proof just a good guess that we have more than one source lets just say that it is noted and that we only have solid proof of Colin. But quite right, Ron being a basic unknown would not appeal to Rita.

Cho- Here I have a major problem with your theory. In Gof Cho is seeing Cedric and there is nothing to establish that she sees Harry and Hermione as a couple in Gof. Also after the articles Cho still goes out with Harry. It is after Harry goes to meet Hermione on Valentines Day and Harry defends Hermione about Cho's friend that Cho gets truly upset. Interesting that Cho didn't have a problem with Harry and Hermione being friends until Valentines day. Although a element of conflict was introduced at the beginning of the formation of the DA. Now while Ron might have been irrelevant to Cho the fact that she saw some truth in the articles is.

Mrs. Weasley- You cited her as a person who saw H/Hr and then you never addressed her. How could Ron be irrelevant to his own Mother? Here I have another problem with your theory. A son being irrelevant to his mother. That I find hard to believe. Espically if the mother is Molly Weasley.

About Rons attitude at Hermione, he has a protective actitude at her through the whole series, not only when Malfoy call her Mudblood. There are many examples, lets see some of them. When Malfoy says in Cos that he wishes the beast of the Chamber would kill Hermy like in the past killed Mirtle, Ron erupts with anger. This happens twice in the book and is kept in the movie when Harry and Ron are with Crabbe and Goyles faces. Also, In Poa and Gof, Ron faces Snape when he insults Hermione in front of the class . In Gof he did it with Harry but in Poa he is the one to answer Snape when he calls Hermione know-i-tall. I think it is established that Ron jumps in Hermiones defence when someone insults her. This means he have a bond with her, friendship maybe. And maybe the basis to something more!

And we also have instances of Harry defending Hermione to Draco. Such as the incident in the campground in Gof. But what is truly interesting is that Harry defends her to Cho. Cho the girl that he likes, his crush of 3 years. He is defending Hermione to his girlfriend. This tells us who Harry values more and it clearly is not Cho. While Ron defends her to an enemy Harry defends her to a girl that he likes.

Cheers!

:rotfl:

Mike and Hawk, your signatures are so stinkin' funny...

Mars :D

I don’t know where your definitions came from, but it was clearly my intention to indicate that proof and evidence are not the same.
proof: evidence establishing a fact or the truth of a statement
evidence: information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid
Source: Oxford English Dictionary
So, whilst proof is evidence, evidence is not necessarily proof. Hence, I always use the word evidence, and never the word proof. Clearly there can be no proof as we do not yet have an outcome; however we can have evidence which indicates a likely outcome.

Encarta online cross checked with Webster Online.

It is not a fallacy to suggest that the Yule Ball does not give reasonable evidence. The fact itself is the evidence. The testing of the evidence, on the other hand is an entirely different matter, which gives rise to the differences of opinion. The evidence itself still stands and may be subsequently substantiated or found to be unsubstantiated. You have thrown in some tests to the evidence in your post and those are, of course, subject to debate. However the evidence which is positive evidence remains since it creates an inference towards a conclusion, however hotly debated both the evidence and the conclusion may be. So no – that is not a fallacy

The fact that you still cling to positive evidence shows again the shallowness and weakness of this theory. This ‘evidence’ that you have submitted cannot stand independent of a pro Hr/R POV. Also as your evidence cannot pass the basic tests and fails to take into account the pre yule ball and post yule ball actions of the characters in question.

That we only saw part of the conversation is irrelevant in establishing Hermione’s 'Ask me first…’ comment as evidence. Again the evidence itself may be tested. If it is subject to test, I don’t see what difference it would make whether the preceding conversation was about Ron himself or Ron’s attitude to Krum. I may test both scenarios and post later.

What you declare to be irrelevant matters little to me. All that says is that evidence that is not pro Hr/R is to be rejected. As JKR said she has laid her clues and red herrings with regards to relationships. Therefore all evidence must be considered.

Now as the partial conversation casts reasonable doubt on your reasonable evidence it therefore must be considered. As we have seen in the books partial conversations are one of JKR’s methods of planting red herrings. Given her past use of partial conversations as a way of planting red herrings to claim that this is irrelevant is careless.

No – the Yule Ball was often cited as clear evidence before OotP. Far from generating evidence in GoF, events in OotP put much of that into perspective, viz a viz:

I do believe that many cited it as evidence of Ron having feelings for Hermione. I don’t remember anyone claiming it as showing Hermione having feelings for Ron. Also as most of the citing came from HMS Heron we can once again see that in order to see this as evidence we must subscribe to the Hr/R outcome to establish this as evidence.

1. Reaction to the Xmas gifts. Quite why the debate should have raged over Hermione’s respective reactions to each of the presents is beyond me. The whole point of that scene was surely about Ron; not about Hermione. In GoF, Hermione remarks that it’s taken Ron three years to notice she’s a girl; lo and behold up he pops in OotP with a gift of perfume showing that he now recognises her femininity and no longer sees her as a walking encyclopedia completely devoid of any sexuality. That seems to me to be the obvious point of that scene. It is a direct allusion to the pre-Yule Ball scene.

I do believe that you admitted to the grammar being unimportant in that particular piece of evidence. This is a lengthy answer in itself that I have posted numerous times. And once again you have to return to the yule ball scene to consider this evidence.

But as I have stated several times, Hermione’s reaction to the gift is important. The fact that she never wears the perfume is important. And the fact that it shows that Ron does not see the inner Hermione and care for her as her is important. It shows that this is the way that Ron views women and wants Hermione to fit that mold as well.

2. Remarks about Harry’s unsuccessful date with Cho. The ‘worse than Ron…’ comment indicates that Hermione has some personal experience to enable her to make that comparison. Harry fails to identify certain needs which Cho telegraphs during their date. Hermione is able to empathise because Ron also failed to identify certain needs of her own. Again a direct allusion to GoF. How else is Hermione in a position to make the judgement call that Harry is not worse than Ron?

Ignoring the fact that Harry had just missed Hermione’s hint to him. Tell her that I’m ugly (paraphrased here). Once again all aspects pertaining to this are not examined and dealt with. Close examination of that scene would show one that the topic of conversation was Cho trying to find out what Harry thought and felt about her, to which Hermione added that comment. A attempt by Hermione to find out what Harry thinks about her and how he feels about her looks. The fact that Harry missed this again, after this is the topic of conversation, would show that he is relatively clueless as to what Hermione had just done. Nor does one have to revisit the Yule Ball in order to see that Hermione and Harry both notice Ron missing things, one need only look at the train ride to Hogwarts when Draco made the dogging comment and Ron completely missed it due to his stuffing his face.

Now lets be clear, for I think you misunderstand. I did not declare your post a fallacy. I referred to your specific argument above as a post hoc fallacy. I refer in that instance to the logical fallacy of assuming that because one thing follows another that the one thing was caused by the other.

Chain of reasoning. Cause and effect. Pattern of progression. Chain of events. Deductions. And since I showed how the one established the other it is far from a fallacy.

Now I didn’t ignore these points in previous posts – I referenced them on both occasions. I did not see them as being relevant to the original question about the answer to whether Hermione likes Ron as more then a friend being within GoF, since none of the above answer the question in terms of positive evidence. However, if you like, I will address them:

By the term positive evidence you of course mean from a pro Hr/R standpoint.

Hermione sees Krum – We know next to nothing about the relationship between Hermione and Krum, much less whether they are boy/girl friend. She does not appear to be overly devoted to him. Hermione seeing Krum takes no more away from R/Hr than it does with H/Hr.

Your beginning is flawed. We do know about Krum’s character. It took him a while to work up the nerve to ask Hermione out. To admit the depth of his feelings for Hermione took longer still. And the fact that Hermione talks about Harry often tells us that Hermione continued to see Krum. After all one would have to see someone to talk too much about someone else. One also fails to see that after Krum told Hermione about his feelings for her, her attention was focused on Harry. Krum had to draw her attention back to what he had just said.

Hermione talks about Harry to Krum – Of course he’s probably a little paranoid following the Rita Skeeter articles, but why wouldn’t she talk about Harry. Both Krum and Harry are Triwizard champions. Any possible mention of Ron would be meaningless to Krum in that context.

Your character analysis is flawed again. Hermione-paranoid. Sorry. Can you show some text that would suggest that Hermione is paranoid. And why would logical thinking Hermione seek to defuse the post Rita articles situation by talking often to the boy she’s dating about the boy she’s accused of cheating on him with? That makes no sense at all.

Hermione kisses Harry – a friendly kiss goodbye. But if it’s a shipping point it’s balanced by kissing Ron in OotP.

Hr/R=Good luck kiss
H/Hr=Good bye kiss
Now we can establish what kind of kisses they were. Good bye and good luck.
Hr/R=Conversation between Harry and Hermione stating not to let Ron see the badges. Kiss used to distract Ron. Established in text.
H/Hr=Conversation with Krum. Subject of conversation unknown. No way to establish why Hermione felt the need to kiss Harry goodbye.

Her despair at Ron’s lack of action is highlighted in OotP. Her encouragement of it is shown in GoF. I suspect we must wait until the next book for further action and/or encouragement. Ron’s actions at the Yule Ball are consistent with the confusion that comes at such watershed moments. His emotions are a mess. All at once he’s just realised that he likes Hermione as a girl, he’s angry that she is at the ball with Krum and feels she is betraying Harry and he’s also jealous for himself that she’s at the ball with Krum.

Her despair? Now that’s a fallacy. Now how did she show encouragement again in Gof? And if she knows that Ron is not getting the hints why did she not give more positive ones? And I don’t considered sighed as the pits of despair. But perhaps you do.

Your character analysis was fine as far as it went. But yes – you did miss the human angle. Unlike Ron apparently, Hermione doesn’t have the emotional range of a teaspoon.

This above all,----- to thine own self be true
Polonius, Hamlet Act 1 Scene 3

I did consider the human angle. I just did not pronounce judgement on how different people make decisions in their life. If a person approaches life from a logical POV then who is one to say that way is wrong. People approach life as they do, whether logical, illogical, pessimistic, hopeful, etc., and to say that one way is wrong or that one way is better is to deny people the freedom that they have to approach life as they see fit. I am also hesitant to pronounce judgement on Hermione’s way to live her life as it is a declaration that I think that my way of approaching life is better than hers or that she is wrong when compared to me.

As I have said people have freedom as they approach these crossroads in their lives and they approach them in their own way and make the choices in their lives as they see fit. My analysis simply showed how Hermione approached her decisions while still leaving the freedom for her to simply be Hermione.

Cheers!

i personally see all the harry and hermione hints and buildup and do think ron/hermione and harry/ginny has very little chance of happening, imo. I'm not reading the books and thinking ron and hermione will happen because it's the obvious choice, because that's not how jkr writes. Also, you don't think it's reading too deeply into the books to claim ginny still has feelings for harry when canon clearly says she doesn't?
Nice post prancer, but I still disagree.
Well, just because it's obvious means it's not going to happen? Wouldn't that throw everyone for a loop... making something so obvious that you think it's not going to happen then it does happen.

We know that Ginny had a huge crush on Harry and that she says she's over it, but clues say otherwise. For example in GoF when Harry and Ron were trying to figure out who'd they ask to the ball after they got turned down:
(GoF page 399 American Version)
"I asked her to go with me just now," Harry said dully, "and she told me."
Ginny had suddenly stopped smiling.
Then again 2 pages later:
"Right," said Ron, who looked extremely put out, "this is getting stupid. Ginny, you can go with Harry, and I'll just --"
"I can't," said Ginny, and she went scarlet too.
Even if Ginny says she's over her crush, I don't think so. No one ever gets over their first crush. She may be able to supress it but I bet if Harry asked her to go out she'd not say no, she'd jump at the chance. The problem with the Ball was that she'd already committed to Neville.

Now the main reason why I don't think that Harry/Hermione will happen is because it is quite obvious to Harry that Ron likes Hermione a little more than just friends. Ron is Harry's best friend. I think if Hermione had flung herself at Harry, he'd reject her simply because of Ron. And what about that interview with Katie Couric and JKR? When Couric asked about a Harry/Hermione romance, JKR was shocked as if how could anyone possibly think a Harry/Hermione romance could happen? JKR replied with "You mean Ron & Hermione don't you?"

Harry may have a fling with Luna to help him grow in the romantic sense, and perhaps someone else for Ron as well. But you've got to look past the end of book 7. Harry & Ron best friends, Harry ending up with his best friend's sister (GINNY) and Ron with Harry's other best friend, Hermione. If Harry ended up with Hermione it'd cause a rift between him and Ron, so I seriously doubt that it'll happen. I think JKR has put a lot of effort into showing them as just very good friends and nothing more. The only possible outcome is Harry/Ginny & Ron/Hermione.

I was thinking that Harry has so much going on with this whole prophecy thing, that romance will take a back seat to everything else. He could be like Sirius and be the best friend to the married couple R/Hr. But if he does get involved I'm hoping for Ginny, because that would make him offically part of his favorite family. Luna and Neville also get my vote. Neville is going to invent some wonderful potion with his new little plant that will help those with spell damage. Good day to all!!
Excellent post KatieLBell!

Rowling has said a few times that she did NOT write these books for children, she wrote them to tell a story that came to her on a train ride. However she is delighted with children's response to them.
Ok, point taken.
I also think that Harry and Ginny would make an ok couple but Neville and Ginny would be better. Lets face it Harry has a lot on his plate right now, he might not end up with anyone.
I wouldn't mind a Neville/Ginny couple either but I still think it'll be Harry/Ginny in the end. I love Neville though. I can identify with him the most. I sure hope Neville shines in the next two books.
In the chamber, Harry rescued Ginny one on one, and I feel there are more symbolically romantic images associated with this scene. Ginny's appearances in the next two books were extremely limited and when she did appear, her crush on Harry was mentioned and her disappointment at not going to the ball with harry was highlighted. Ginny keeps being associated with Harry romantically, whether directly on indirectly. Harry is friends with Ginny currently, though not on the same level of Ron and Hermione. I think the groundwork is laid out so that they can become better friends in the next two books.
Very excellent point, Prongs, Sr. Unfortunately I don't have my copy of OotP with me to single out other events pointing towards Harry/Ginny. I've reread the first four books though and I'm more convinced now it's going to be Harry/Ginny & Ron/Hermione.

Now if the Ron/Fleur interaction is to make us aware of Hermione's jealousy then why does JKR make sure that we know that Hermione has a reason to, and a dislike, of Fleur before she shows us any interaction between Ron and Fleur?This is a fair point. I think Hermione is jealous of Fleur not because Ron paid attention to her, but because all of the boys in the room were gawking at her. It doesn't necessarily mean Hermione is jealous that Ron was flirting with Fleur, but simply because of all the attention Fleur was getting.

To be perfectly honest, I have no problem with x-ray's post except it terribly underestimates the intelligence of the children who read these books. Heh, maybe I was too abrupt there. When I first read the books I was more of a Harry/Hermione 'shipper' as y'all say, but the second read through (I was paying more attention to the clues) changed my mind. I wasn't trying to belittle anyone's intelligence, merely expound on the fact that some of the reasoning I've seen here is way out on a very thin limb.

I agree.... Ginny and Harry are STILL (even though you guys don't seem to notice it) romantically linked, unlike Hermione and Harry who were being linked by a..."reporter"...

Originally Posted by GryffindorGal
Rowling has said a few times that she did NOT write these books for children, she wrote them to tell a story that came to her on a train ride. However she is delighted with children's response to them.

These books were originally presented to Christopher Little (JKR's agent), who by my understanding, specializes in childrens' literature. Her books were shopped to publishers, not as an adult novel, but as childrens' books. JKR has said in interviews that children 8/9 and up should be able to read all seven books.

Children need to be able to follow the romance in the novels, which is one of the reasons why I believe JKR is writing R/Hr and H/G. R/Hr is obvious to that age level and the following are a few examples of obvious romance - "ask me first, and not as a last resort", "perfume as a gift," "chocolate in the library," jealousy, twisting of the stomach and blushes, i.e. "Ginny was very taken with Harry". I think, at least in western culture, that chocolate and perfume are obvious symbols of romance and kids can understand this, even if they are "yucked-out" by the romance factor.

Some of the symbolism that H/Hr ship have been mentioning are not going to be understandable to children without an explanation, i.e. "Buckbeak as a symbol of impossible love," and "misinterpretation of the runes

I think Harry's goals in the books are ideas that children can relate to: the fight of good versus evil and Harry's need for a family, as this is his deepest desire in the mirror of erised. Children can also understand and have a deep-seated fear of losing their parents. This is one reason why I think JKR is writing OBHWF. Harry's quest will be fulfilled, if he marries Ginny (who is perfect for him) and we know her family in great detail.

Now, let me say that I am not underestimating children's capabilities at all. I have two of that age group (7-9), but in regards to romance, I think JKR is laying it all out in an obvious manner and as she is a parent herself, her readership of that age group is important to her.

These books were originally presented to Christopher Little (JKR's agent), who by my understanding, specializes in childrens' literature. Her books were shopped to publishers, not as an adult novel, but as childrens' books. JKR has said in interviews that children 8/9 and up should be able to read all seven books.


Wrong. JKR submitted them to various publishing companies. It was only Bloomsbury that decided to print and publish Harry Potter. JKR has never come out right and said that these are children's books. These books have progressively gotten darker and more mature. Just look at the number of adults that are now reading them. Scholastic has even put out ads geared towards adults to read Harry Potter. So, please tell me how these are children's books again?


Children need to be able to follow the romance in the novels, which is one of the reasons why I believe JKR is writing R/Hr and H/G. R/Hr is obvious to that age level and the following are a few examples of obvious romance - "ask me first, and not as a last resort", "perfume as a gift," "chocolate in the library," jealousy, twisting of the stomach and blushes, i.e. "Ginny was very taken with Harry". I think, at least in western culture, that chocolate and perfume are obvious symbols of romance and kids can understand this, even if they are "yucked-out" by the romance factor.


You are right. However, children do pick up on subtle hints too. They do notice Hermione reaction to Ron's perfume, she liked Harry's gift better. They will notice the jealousy from Hermione's boyfriend (Krum) to Harry, the jealousy from Harry's girlfriend (Cho) to Hermione, and make the connection that something is there. They'll make the connection that Ron wasn't present much in OotP and that Harry & Hermione pick up on more things than Ron does. You are clearly leaving out these clues and assume that children think that fighting=love.

Secondly, where in the world has there been anything relating to "twisting of the stomach and blushing" in relation to R/Hr and H/G???? Canon please.


Now, let me say that I am not underestimating children's capabilities at all. I have two of that age group (7-9), but in regards to romance, I think JKR is laying it all out in an obvious manner and as she is a parent herself, her readership of that age group is important to her.

You do realize that you just underestimated a child's capability to pick up on the subtle hints. I teach this age range, and children may not know the symbolism and correlation to mythology, but they do notice and pick up on how close Harry & Hermione are becoming.

Sarmi

Nice post prancer, but I still disagree.
Well, just because it's obvious means it's not going to happen? Wouldn't that throw everyone for a loop... making something so obvious that you think it's not going to happen then it does happen.

We know that Ginny had a huge crush on Harry and that she says she's over it, but clues say otherwise. For example in GoF when Harry and Ron were trying to figure out who'd they ask to the ball after they got turned down:

Then again 2 pages later:

Even if Ginny says she's over her crush, I don't think so. No one ever gets over their first crush. She may be able to supress it but I bet if Harry asked her to go out she'd not say no, she'd jump at the chance. The problem with the Ball was that she'd already committed to Neville.

Now the main reason why I don't think that Harry/Hermione will happen is because it is quite obvious to Harry that Ron likes Hermione a little more than just friends. Ron is Harry's best friend. I think if Hermione had flung herself at Harry, he'd reject her simply because of Ron. And what about that interview with Katie Couric and JKR? When Couric asked about a Harry/Hermione romance, JKR was shocked as if how could anyone possibly think a Harry/Hermione romance could happen? JKR replied with "You mean Ron & Hermione don't you?"

Harry may have a fling with Luna to help him grow in the romantic sense, and perhaps someone else for Ron as well. But you've got to look past the end of book 7. Harry & Ron best friends, Harry ending up with his best friend's sister (GINNY) and Ron with Harry's other best friend, Hermione. If Harry ended up with Hermione it'd cause a rift between him and Ron, so I seriously doubt that it'll happen. I think JKR has put a lot of effort into showing them as just very good friends and nothing more. The only possible outcome is Harry/Ginny & Ron/Hermione.

Yeah, i was kind of guessing you wouldn't agree.
Good point, but the thing is, it wouldn't shock me. I see what can be taken as ron and hermione evidence, i just don't see it that way. So it wouldn't throw me through a loop.

I wasn't referring to gof, it's painfully obvious that ginny still has an unreturned fan crush on harry, i was referring to ootp where hermione tells them that ginny has given up harry, she dated other guys during the book, and ignored ron's hints. Even on the train ride home, when it was obvious whom ron was talking about jk didn't choose to write something like "Ginny caught Harry's eye and they shared an amused grin." she chose to have Ginny talk about another guy. Another thing is that you said, no one ever gets over their first crush-the problem with that is, ginny's crush on harry was like my first crush which was justin timberlake. We both liked the two guys because they were handsome, famous, and in ginny's case, a hero, in my case, very talented. Neither of our crushes were because we knew them personally and thought they were great guys and wanted more then friendship based on that, which is what a real crush should be like. And i assure you that i am very much over my justin crush.

My problem with what you said about harry rejecting hermione because ron likes her is that he'd be hurting hermione, and if he does have feelings for her like i suspect,(subconsciously, though if they're there they have to come out in 6 or 7) himself too. Why would he be more willing to hurt himself and hermione, who has always done her best for him, than ron, who's hurt him before. By the way, yes, i do know harry's over it, but in all the cases i've seen with 16/17 year old friends of the family, when romantic feelings are involved, old mistakes are quick to be brought up. And the next sentence is purely my opinion and a guess, but i think ron's going to get over his crush once he realizes hermione doesn't return those feelings, and go to somebody who does. Luna perhaps?

Ah yes, the katie couric interview. Let's look at the actually quote, according to tlc-
couric: "Any snogging with Hermione"

Rowling: "Hermione and Harry?! Do you think so?"

Couric: "No I'm kidding."

Rowling: "Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more tension there."

My interpretation-
Rowling: "Hermione and Harry?! Do you think so?" The fair side of my brain says that it's just a question, no proof for either side. The shippy part of my brain screams it's a distraction, or that if harry and hermione date, they're not going to full on snog anyway, because in my opinion, a small kiss on the lips is cute, but a full on snogging session is gross.

"Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more tension there." I traveled on over to britanica to get the true meaning of tension:3 a : inner striving, unrest, or imbalance often with physiological indication of emotion b : a state of latent hostility or opposition between individuals or groups
Well, i'd have to say those 2 fit the ron and hermione situation very well. Ron is striving for hermione's love, and is likely feeling inner unrest or imbalance as he's never done anything about these feelings and doesn't know if she returns them. And yes, hermione and ron do have hostility and opposition between them. So much to the point where harry tells them to shut up because he can't take their arguing and hermione often walks away angry, or in the first book incident, with tears in her eyes. Now with this in mind, i don't see romantic tension between ron and hermione to be good at all.

Just for the record, I don't see the harry luna thing ever happening for the following reasons-
1-Luna seems like to kind of girl where when you date, it's for a long time, or even to the point of marriage. Really just my opinion here though.
2-Pity and death are not good grounds to start a romance on.
3-It's obvious, imho, that luna likes ron, not harry. Why would she date the best friend of the guy she has a crush on.(imo)
4-with the war going on and only two books left, jkr doesn't have time to write about relationships not working out. She needs to cement her final pairings.
That's exacly my problem with obhwf-it's not the hero and the girl ending up together that's too perfect, it's the three main characters and friend/possible best female friend/sister becoming one big happy family together that's too perfect. And i just can't see the ending being all sugary sweet. Also, i'll be kind of surprised if all 4 make it out of this alive.
Well, we have a difference of opinions here.(gee, what a surprise) I think jkr has spent time proving that harry and hermione care about each other as more then friends, that ron's crush didn't start until he was desperate, that it didn't really develop until he saw her looking pretty and with another guy, that hermione doesn't return those feelings, and that harry still sees ginny as ron's little sister.

Prancer, are you certain you're 12 and not 30? :lol:
Great thinking, great post!

Welcome :welcome: to the thread!

Cheers,
Nia

:clap: :clap: :clap: for Hawk92, Sarmi and Prancer.

Good effort by Daveydee, xray and Prongs, Sr. as well.

Did you ever understand our points? Because by now I doubt this.

Because I understood all of the post is why I'm asking.

This is what she meant as she said that there won't be a reaction like where did that came from. H/Hr does argue that this path, this route does exist for H/Hr for this I do debatte that Hermiones doing isn't just friendly doing that she indeed does more for Harry without thinking. She don't ask herself, she just do it. If you like it can be called as unknowing love but strictly platonic love.

As I understand this. You are telling me that Hermione may have feelings for Harry but it's unaware of them. And that it's okay. But for Ginny it isn't okay because she knows that she has feelings for Harry. Aren't feelings just that feelings. Aware or unaware of them.

This is the very point of H/Hr its not I say they are all along in love I said they all along unbelievable close especially in GoF but don't have any clue and don't ask what they feel. Its unknowing thats why people around see it but not them. For them is it friendship. In OotP start to change this thinking and only in OotP this will be in book6 much more change.

I just don't see where are this 'feelings'. That they have. I see a friendship, the same friendship that I see between Harry and Ron. A very nice friendship. If I would be JKR I wouldn't pair up R/Hr either but since I'm not, I guess I'll have to have the confidence that she can write this without ruining R/Hr friendship.

He say drop it that don't say "You always annoy me"

I believe he did say that she was bugging him. But if you need a better one here it is:

OoP Chap. 30 Page 681

Harry interrupted her before she had even started.
'It's no good nagging me, it's done,' he said firmly. 'Fred and George have got the gold - spent a good bit of it, too, by the sounds of it - and I can't get it back from them and I don't want to. So save your breath, Hermione.'
'I wasn't going to say anything about Fred and George!' she said in an injured voice.
Ron snorted disbelievingly and Hermione threw him a very dirty look.

As author you has pretty every chance to do it different. There is no need of a troll or that this happens at Halloween. Just say why not after "The midnight duel" quiet possible. But JKR didn't use this. She did use the Halloween day. Why use the very same day like 10 years before? Why not any other day? An author don't do this for fun. Its there because this means something. JKR didn't say for nothing that Halloween is an important day in this books. Why? Because at this day Harry lost and won.

Every halloween something happens. It's a trade that JKR has. In every Halloween something happens. What does this has to do with Romance? :huh:

Oh yes it does;everything little thing counts, especially when they relate to the portrayal of the trio's internal friendships. Hermione's spending more time with Harry that Ron shows that either she believes Harry is right and sides with him, or that she simply likes Harry's companionship better than Ron.

Forgive me for not counting the 'time' that the trio spend toguether. I think you are stretching it too much here. I don't see the 'time' that people spend toguether as 'prove' for a ship.

I am not contridicting myself in anyway. It is quite simple actually.

1) Hermione doesn't know about Harry and Ron's fight the previous night when the Gryffindors were celebrating on Harry winning the 4th spot for the TWT
2) Hermione finds out the next morning from Ron in the Great Hall over breakfast
3) Hermione took a stack of toast to seek Harry.

What is so difficult about that? It is pretty logical after all.

Now you explained it better. Yes, so then we have an agreement that Hermione had breakfast with Ron and talk to him?

I'm not sure whether she had breakfast or not, or whether she took a stack of toast for herself and Harry to eat while they were walking. On the otherhand, while it doesn't take a genious to figure out that Harry isn't at breakfast, it does take someone who understands Harry to realize that Harry doesn't want to come to breakfast because he hates the attention. It does take someone
who had little knowledge of how Harry actually felt about his nomination for the TWT to deduce the fact that Harry didn't like the attention. I mean Ron, certainly, thought that Harry enjoyed all the attention. It takes someone special to realize how Harry really felt about the TWT.

What does this deep knowing of Harry has to do with what we are talking about? May I ask what is this obsession that H/Hr shippers have of sticking shipping into everything? It doesn't take a genious to know that if Harry isn't at breakfast and Ron and Harry had a fight that Harry won't eat anything and skip the Great Hall because he doesn't want another row with Ron. Gezz even Ron could have figure that one out and he is pretty dense. We are talking friendship here or are we? Is there anything that Hermione does for Harry that is not seen as a sign of her posible feelings for Harry? I'm asking because I've been reading some of the statements here and some in another place and almost everything that Hermione does for Harry is consider romantic or a sign that they have feelings.

I was merely responding to your orginial post which states that Hermione talked "fully" with Ron before she sought after Harry. I was merely contrasting the time and place of the situation to point out that she couldn't have had a heart to heart with him. Furthermore, it is illogical to say that Hermione had a chat with Ron any other place (if there was even a chat at all) than the breakfast table because cannon specifically states that Hermione met Ron in breakfast, and Hemione also brought toast from the breakfast table, and Hermione met Harry just when he was going to the Great Hall. So time-wise, Hermione couldn't have chatted with Ron anywhere else on that morning.

So how does she know that they had a fight? So how does she know about how Ron feels? How does she know all about what happend? Why does she hesitate when Harry asked her?

Is it so impossible to believe that Hermione could have a heart to heart talk with Ron? Off course it is Gily Ann what the heck are you thinking! Ron and Hermione can't posibly be friends! I really want to know how do you think that Hermione knew all of that. Obviously R/Hr are not as best friends as H/Hr. So she can't be that 'good' at reading Ron's feelings. So what is your theory about how Hermione knew.

She is *not* justifying to Ron, simply because she doesn't think that he's *right* Would you defend something when you specifically disagree with it? Then I should see you defending H/Hr rather than H/G.

But the feelings she is explaining are Ron's not Harry's is my point.

But does Colin Creevey hang out in the library 24/7? Because Harry and Hermione certainly didn't. So that means that he sees them together everywhere else too.

But Hermione is Harry's friend! They take classes toguether and they were looking for hexes and practicing for the first task. Hermione had to help Harry there. He is bound to see them toguether.

She said that "You miss him" to Harry. Very confident and straightfoward. It is not stated as an opinion like "I think you miss him" or "In my opinion, you miss him" or even "It seems that you miss him." On the otherhand, her quote about Ron is "I know he misses you too." It is stated as an opinion, not a fact. No one is arguing that she doesn't spend time with Ron at all, because she was going backwards and forwards, but I am arguing that she spent most of her time with Harry.

She says she KNOWS if you know something is because you are aware of it. You are sure of it. Yes but as I said above they take classes toguether and they were looking for hexes and practicing for the first task. Hermione had to help Harry there.

If Hermione doesn't understand Harry then why is she even there? Why isn't she like Ron and believe that Harry entered himself or that he likes the attention? After four years of friendship, I think it is safe to say that she understands him. IMO, she understands Ron too, but just not as deeply as Harry. Furthermore, I think text states that Hermione went back and forth, so I believe this debunks your theory that she is solely trying to get Harry to make-up to Ron. Certainly, she didn't say that Harry should apologize to Ron.

Hermione doesn't believe that Harry enter himself, because Hermione wasn't there when Ron suggested entering. Hermione wasn't there in Ron's and Harry's room when all of that was going on. We know from Harry's mind that Harry wouldn't mind entering or winning but when Ron suggest it he never said anything. Hermione is there however when Harry says that he would have done it at night, so no one would know. But she won't be able to pick up in the source of the mess because she isn't there in Ron and Harry's dorm.

BTW, could you stop using the word "clearly"? because it really bugs me when it is not "clear" at all. Perhaps to you it is clear, but to some of us, it is still quite ambiguous. The words IMO and clearly are redundant when placed together, not to mention awkward.

I'll try.

Perhaps you simply choose not to say it. My point is she "stood" by Harry's side (physically as well as emotionally)

What? :huh:

You were the one to accuse the H/Hr's first, there is not need to repeat your accusations. We wouldn't want this to go in circles now would we.

Do you have any idea how many times this topic has been discoused? We already going in circles.

err... how. We agree on the fact that Hermione has understanding of her friends. IMO, she understands Harry a bit more...and your response doesn't really collaborate with my post...on the otherhand you don't really have to respond to every post.

Thanks for the help! May I choose what I want to reply?


In here Dumbledore explain that the news of Arthur's Weasley's daughter being killed caused a quite a stir.
I think the word "killed" speaks for itself. It didn't matter whose daughter was killed. As long as someone is killed, it is a pretty big deal. Remember poor Moaning Mrytle? After she was killed, Hogwarts was threatened of closing down. However, Mrytle isn't even a pure-blood. So this quote adds no significance to how the Weasleys "specifically" are the most popular among the wizarding world.[/QUOTE]

Right! :wow:

There are only so few pure-blooded families, but does that mean the Weasleys are well known or well liked? Nope. Although I love the Weasleys, I just think that it is stretching it to say that Ron Weasley is way more popular than Harry Potter any day.

Right! :wow:

He didn't need to be; he has Hermione. After all, there is only one best friend on spare. So poor Ron had to find consolation with Dean and Seamus.

Poor Dean and Seamus reduced with ickle wasteless Ron!

You avoided my question. Gee I wonder why...

I wasn't avoiding your question I was actually asking you one because in 4 books Harry hasn't hang out with any one that hasn't been Ron or Hermione. Do you actually believe that Harry was going to hang out with Dean and Seamus? BTW, Ron is with Dean and Seamus in page 298 of GoF. He is standing with Dean and Seamus and the he sits with them in page 300.

Huh????? He *does* feel overshadowed, and because of this, he has a ...flaw???? okie dokie...

So you actually believe that a popular person doesn't have flaws and it's perfect and doesn't feel sometimes less than other people. Interesting!

Aren't you stating it backwards? Don't people who have many siblings are more mature than an only child since he/she have to take care of their younger siblings? Anyway, I'm still waiting for JKR's quote. When you find it, please, show it to me.

As I have seen many times only children are a bit more mature.

But JKR could've easily place other people's POV in through other means. For example, Colin Creevey's view is put in through Rita Skeeter...I'm sure if Colin Creevey had said that Hermione is playing Harry, Krum, and Ron, the paper would be way more juicy than it is. However, apparently Hermione didn't spend that much time with Ron for others to be suspicious of. This simply shows that Hermione spent more time with Harry in GoF than she did with Ron.

But Ron has nothing to do in any of this! At the moment of the article Ron was mad at Harry. Again Hermione takes classes with Harry and they are practicing for the first task.

Oh yeah, Harry learned all right, but poor Sirius...he's just the first victim of Harry's foolish, headstong, albeit noble actions.

Sad but true! JKR mention something along those lines in one of the last interviews and I agree.

IMO, just by being a friend and believing in him when the whole school did not shows Hermione supporting Harry emotionally. After all, Hermione was slandered by Rita Skeeter as a scarlet woman for being by Harry's side so often and told off by other students (Malfoy) for supporting Harry. She could've let Harry deal with the slanders alone, but did she abandon him in times of need? No. Did she dessert him after getting mockings and tauntings? No. She stood by him and supported him emotionally. I honestly think that Harry would not have withstood the slandering without Hermione by his side.

Well Gryfindoor tower is with Harry, the Crevey brothers believe in Harry. Dumbledore believes in Harry. Yet none of them understand him. Sirius did however.

Ron supported Harry too much in OotP. In fact it was more like passive agreement to everything. How in the world did Ron support Harry *alot* in GoF? He was absent from Harry the first part of the book for his jealousy of Harry's fame. He came around after the first task; onward then, Hermione and Ron supported him equally. This doesn't brandish Ron's support in any way.

Really? Ron is one of the people that most supports Harry all thru the books. I believe that Ron is on equal terms if not better on terms of supporting Harry.

OotP displays a rift with Harry and Hermione? Where did you get that? First of all, Harry was annoyed with *everyone* and secondly, Harry was annoyed with Hermione because she is willing to challenge him to think twice before acting. Harry truly needs this because Harry is too impulsive sometimes. OotP only cemented Harry and Hermione's friendship even more; the two is becoming increasingly closer and closer. Although there is still room to grow, to say that they have become further apart is simply ludicrous.

H/Hr cemented in OoP? :huh: He was annoyed with Hermione because she kept guetting on his nerves. OoP displayed their relationship falling into dangerous lines. H/Hr bring out the worst of each other IMO and clearly are not meant to be toguether romantically.

Exactly. So we agree. In GoF, Harry and Ginny are solely aquaintances.

I lost track of what was this for? Sorry what was this point about?

Quotes? Evidence? I certainly didn't see any interacting beside the one on the train.

In PoA Hermione and Ginny are begining to know each other this by Mrs. Weasley's tale of the love potion, the way Hermione comforts Ginny on the train.
In GoF they way they are usually toguether when Ron and Harry are around. They go down toguether, they stayed toguether, they are the same cabin, they way Hermione confided in Ginny her date etc. All signs for me that a friendship is being built up.

Gily Ann

GillyAnn, that was the longest post ive seen in a long time..... and I agree with everthing you say.Also, it does seem that H/Hr shippers take every single interation between harry and hermoine as a clue to their impending romance. Quotes that I never even considered to be "romantic" are skewed as such. Before I even found this website, I saw something with R/H. It wasn't in every interaction between the two characters, but it was the impression I was getting. I never even considered H/Hr until I saw this thread. I tried, really tried to see it their way the last time I read the series. And mabey something will happen in 6 or 7 that changes how I see it, but I just DONT. I wish I could say that I see H/G, but for now, I have only seen a girls crush on her older brothers friend. I see no reciprocation. But the H/Hr thing? I donno. So far, its too vague for me. I mean, I could start a campaign that Hermoine will end up with a house elf and find tons of cannon to support it. Insane you say? well, from a certain point of view, there could be tons of quotes to support that, and many arguments to be supported. That is how I feel about the H/Hr thing so far....just alot of innocent quotes that are screwed around, and every interation between the two of them seen as a blatent sign. I guess I havent been convinced yet. before y'all 'rip me a new one' as they say where I live, I am NOT saying that I dont think H/Hr could ever happen. I think they would make a lovely couple -- I like both characters --- I just havent seen it with the clarity that I have seen R/H.

SARMI:

Wrong. JKR submitted them to various publishing companies. It was only Bloomsbury that decided to print and publish Harry Potter. JKR has never come out right and said that these are children's books. These books have progressively gotten darker and more mature. Just look at the number of adults that are now reading them. Scholastic has even put out ads geared towards adults to read Harry Potter. So, please tell me how these are children's books again?

I got the impression that JKR considers them both children and adult books. This was not the particular interview that I was looking for that says readers of 8/9 and up can follow all seven books with no problem, but it is similar.

How overtly concerned are you with the idea of Harry's growing up in the books?

"I do want him to grow up. I want them all to grow up, but not in a way that's unfaithful to the tone of the books, i.e., I feel it would be inappropriate-in these books -were Hermione to have an underage pregnancy or if one of them were to start taking drugs, because it's unfaithful to the tone of the books. It's not at all that I don't think those themes can be explored superbly in children's literature. It's just that in the Harry Potter books there isn't a place for those particular issues."

You are right. However, children do pick up on subtle hints too. They do notice Hermione reaction to Ron's perfume, she liked Harry's gift better. They will notice the jealousy from Hermione's boyfriend (Krum) to Harry, the jealousy from Harry's girlfriend (Cho) to Hermione, and make the connection that something is there. They'll make the connection that Ron wasn't present much in OotP and that Harry & Hermione pick up on more things than Ron does. You are clearly leaving out these clues and assume that children think that fighting=love.

If you are going to use Hermione not liking Ron's perfume as a reason why R/Hr will not get together, than I think it only fitting that I use Harry's throwing of the homework planner that Hermione got him at Fred (Ootp, page 502). Perfume as a gift does have romantic connations and Hermione does not say that she hates the gift; she says it's unusual.

As for children noticing the bickering between R/Hr, I believe, when Harry is reminded of Ron and Hermione acting like Mr and Mrs Weasley is obvious text; as well as Lily/James relationship, which was hostile in the get go.

You do realize that you just underestimated a child's capability to pick up on the subtle hints. I teach this age range, and children may not know the symbolism and correlation to mythology, but they do notice and pick up on how close Harry & Hermione are becoming friends.

I agree that children can pick up on H/Hr becoming friends, because they are friends and their friendship is not subtle. Ron and Hermione bickering with Hermione being jealous because Fleur kissed Ron is not difficult to pick up upon, as is the goodluck Quidditch kiss, in where Ron has a reaction (acting like he is in a daze and holding his hand over his cheek), in complete contrast to Harry, where there is nothing from Harry. Harry laughing at the thought of H/Hr is not exactly subtle. Hermione playing "matchmaker" without the slightest indication of jealousy is obvious to children. I suppose we could go round and round over what we consider obvious to children or not.

The point I was trying to make is the "Buckbeak symbolism" is too difficult for this age range to pick up on, as it is for most adults, since there is no connection with H/Hr, rather more of a connection with Sirius and Hagrid. These are written for children, as well as adults, and I feel that JKR will write the clues and hints in a more obvious manner that kids can understand.

I also feel that the "runes" argument, presented by I believe FP, is to complicated for children to grasp, without a suitable explanation. I don't believe JKR would make romance that complicated and do you think JKR will be considered a successful author if her romance has to be explained to children?

The point I was trying to make is the "Buckbeak symbolism" is too difficult for this age range to pick up on, as it is for most adults, since there is no connection with H/Hr, rather more of a connection with Sirius and Hagrid. These are written for children, as well as adults, and I feel that JKR will write the clues and hints in a more obvious manner that kids can understand.

I also feel that the "runes" argument, presented by I believe FP, is to complicated for children to grasp, without a suitable explanation. I don't believe JKR would make romance that complicated and do you think JKR will be considered a successful author if her romance has to be explained to children?
Just wanted to add something here-(also, i personally understand buckbeak and the runes very well, but i'm pretty sure you're talking about 8 and 9 year olds)do you think children will also know and understand how jkr uses latin words to create her spells? Like accio means send for, or summon in latin, right? and "Crucio" is Latin for "to torture." Or will they understand and know how many of the characters got their names from legends, or constellations, or other languages? such as sirius- Named after the star Sirius, also known as the Dog Star. Seen during summer "dog" days.
or peeves- "Peeve" means "little devil" or something that gets on your nerves (like a pet peeve).
or nicholas flamel- Was a real alchemist, and supposedly DID create the Philosopher's Stone (not "Sorcerer's"). The tale was that he had spent decades of his life trying to create the Philosopher's Stone, which could turn any metal in to gold and unlock the secrets to immortality, but could not figure it out.(much credit to mugglenet for those)
or that all of them will truly grasp why the malfoy's hate people because of their bloodlines or fully understand the prophecy and what it means? Yes, i'm sure some of them do, children can be very smart, but basing my opinion on the little kids i know that read harry potter, and what i was like at that age and how much i knew, my answer is no. I'd also like to add that i was talking with some of the 8 year olds who take a little dance class before my advanced class while i was waiting for her to start, and they said they have had nightmares about the end of the 4th book. And i was reviewing the archives at tlc's quote section, and a lot of kids were talking about how the beginning of the 4th book was weird and confusing. And i know lots of kids didn't like angry harry in ootp because they couldn't understand why he was angry. So i think this shows she'll put it in the books whether children understand it or not. Like she said, at the end of the day she has to write the books for herself, she can't write them for anybody else.

Posted by ana banana
NOBODY, except JK Rowling HERSELF can say how she THOUGHT of the stories, and you cannot guess that, especially since the 7 books aren't out yet....
I don't believe you can read minds, I can't explain how you came to that conclusion...

Did I forget to say I'm a mindreader. :) I was speculating based on what we know of how she planned the series and how IMO an author would approach a series of books.

Just wanted to add something here-(also, i personally understand buckbeak and the runes very well, but i'm pretty sure you're talking about 8 and 9 year olds)do you think children will also know and understand how jkr uses latin words to create her spells? Like accio means send for, or summon in latin, right? and "Crucio" is Latin for "to torture." Or will they understand and know how many of the characters got their names from legends, or constellations, or other languages? such as sirius- Named after the star Sirius, also known as the Dog Star. Seen during summer "dog" days.
or peeves- "Peeve" means "little devil" or something that gets on your nerves (like a pet peeve)..

I don't think knowing all this background information on Latin is very important. Children may not understand (or need to) this.
But the Hermione/Ron hints are obvious by J.K Rowling because she wants little kids to get the hint. Though she says she is writing for herself, at the end of the day, she knows she is also writing to her millions of fans out there, especially the little ones.

lol
I haven't read quite a few posts so if I'm confusing you, don't worry - I'm probably confusing myself...um, whatever. :p

Well I'm glad it's settled, I can't for the life of me see H/Hr and where it's coming from. Where have H/Hr been done anything better than H/G or R/Hr. This is all a matter of opinion but... back it up. :p
Iv seen no clues to H/G. Yes you may think that Ginny liking Harry is a big clue, but its merely Ginny liking Harry not the other way round, and if to say that there is time for him to like her then how is he really going to do that? in my opinon Ginny isn't really someone who stands out in his mind, not as much as Hermione, and if he really had to choose there is very little chance he would choose Ginny over Hermione.
What i meant by H/Hr doing it better than H/G (and i really can't believe i have to write this) but everything that they do together has a lot more basis together than what H/G do.
H/G have been alone together, what three times in the whole series, i can think of one but i'm sure theres more, and what did they do? share chocolate together, wow.
H/Hr have had a series of their own adventures e.g the Grawp scene, now imangine what you would be thinking if Ginny went into the forest with Harry instead of Hermione.
IMO there is nothing going on between H/G that isn't there a million times stronger between H/Hr, but thats my opinon, and i don't expect you to even slightly agree, i'm sure your find something to disagree with. but i don't really care...
Just to add, the H/G community is reading too deeply into the text? At least there has been indication of something romantic happening between the two. Where's the romantic indication of H/Hr. Wait, don't answer that. I'll get a lot of symbolism, some long post probably that will take hours, well probably a minute to read and don't have time really. Don't think I'm getting snotty, 'cuz I'm not trying to be. :p
I like that you put between the two, Fairydust.
Romance is not exactly there between any of them at the moment, Harry and Hermione have a chance, however to progress closer, whilst Harry and Ginny, the two need to become better friends if there is to be any romance between them, and i really can't see Ginny replacing Hermione in just two books. If you can see that however, then good for you.

Oh and i appoligise if reading this post took longer than a minute. The fact that it took me hours to write as i added in all my symbolism and stuff i kind of forgot that very few people have the time nowadays.
Hey was that me being snotty? why i believe it was :D

I just noticed something...

GoF, Chapter 27 (Padfoot Returns), page 452, UK Edition

All three of them bowed low to him, and after regardiing them imperiously for a moment, Buckbeak bent his scaly front knees, and allowed Hermione to rush forward and stroke his feathery neck. Harry, however, was looking at the black dog, which had just turned into his godfather.

(Emphasis mine)

Do you think this scene has any significance, symbolically? We all agree that Hippogriffs symbolize love right? Does this mean that Hermione recognizes love but Harry chooses to ignore it? Or perhaps get distracted (as is always the case)?

BTW, I'm sorry if this has been discussed before.

As I understand this. You are telling me that Hermione may have feelings for Harry but it's unaware of them. And that it's okay. But for Ginny it isn't okay because she knows that she has feelings for Harry. Aren't feelings just that feelings. Aware or unaware of them.

Well, No. This isn't just feelings. If you know you has this feelings and act like this feelings than this feelings weare off, very easily wear off. But If you aren't aware than you can't wear it off because you did never discover this feelings for this person.

I just don't see where are this 'feelings'. That they have. I see a friendship, the same friendship that I see between Harry and Ron. A very nice friendship. If I would be JKR I wouldn't pair up R/Hr either but since I'm not, I guess I'll have to have the confidence that she can write this without ruining R/Hr friendship.

You tell me you really think Harry and Hermiones friendship is like Harrys and Rons? I disagree and for that I don't need to be a H/Hr shipper because its clear from book1 till 4 was Harrys friendship to Ron a lot closer as to Hermione. This change in GoF. Now is Hermione closer to Harry as Ron.

I believe he did say that she was bugging him. But if you need a better one here it is:

Nice that you bold only the first part because a liitle bit longer and I see what I mean :'It's no good nagging me, it's done,'
This is only about this moment and not general.

Every halloween something happens. It's a trade that JKR has. In every Halloween something happens. What does this has to do with Romance?

Thats not true not every Halloween happens something like we see in OotP.
And its not just something the fact is that on all Halloweens happens something bad but at this one something happens what isn't bad.

Did I forget to say I'm a mindreader.
You scare me, you really do :scared:

I also feel that the "runes" argument, presented by I believe FP, is to complicated for children to grasp, without a suitable explanation. I don't believe JKR would make romance that complicated and do you think JKR will be considered a successful author if her romance has to be explained to children?

You know its for children complicated that a bad guy want to kill a child just because a prophecy say so. Or that Voldemort isn't really dead and not really alive. Or that Ginny is secretly connected with Voldemort, or that she is secretly a animagus. Wait a better one that Ron likes or loves Hermione but don't act. Or that Hermione likes Ron but does nothing about it. I would rather say that a 12 year old understand Buckbeak a lot better for that he or she need just look into the net or about the runes for this you need just to look into the net but by R/Hr or H/G you can't do this. There you just guess and have to read some nice essay from other guys of this ship. By H/Hr you comes pretty alone to this conclusion even as 12 year old like prancer (between great post) shows

Why do you keep saying Hermione is MEANT to be Harry's love interest....?? I mean, honestly, nobody knows that. We can only assume. I started saying the same thing as you because you guys started saying the Harmony will be there either we want it or not or something.......
Because I debatte H/Hr for this I have to bring Hermione in it. But I don't say R/Hr going to happen so why bring Ron in it if I debatte Harry and Hermione?


You don't need to teach me english, thank you very much. So you say H/Hr....I say H/G....

You said this is the romance thread thats why I have to write about romantic proofs in canon or a scene which could be romance. Well thats wrong this is the future romance thread.

Great post everybody :clap:

Posted by FP:
You scare me, you really do

:lol: Well that can be interpreted in a few different ways. You'd better start blocking your mind.....

thesnitch_and_you Yes it's a bit long. I've been busy so I just answer at one shot. :sigh:

Where did the idea that Hermione dislike the perfume came from?

As far as I have read the same tone goes thru the whole sentence and Unusual isn't a bad thing. It must have smell weird but that's another story.

Buckbeak Symbolism:

The problem with buckbeak is that JKR already explained hipograffs in the books. But she never linked them to love. So in the text an 8 or 9 year old won't pick up on the symbolism. And it can't be explained later because JKR considers that cheating. So in terms of text the symbolism of buckbeak as a sign of love it doesn't exist.

Well, No. This isn't just feelings. If you know you has this feelings and act like this feelings than this feelings weare off, very easily wear off. But If you aren't aware than you can't wear it off because you did never discover this feelings for this person.

WoW! :wow: :scared:

You tell me you really think Harry and Hermiones friendship is like Harrys and Rons? I disagree and for that I don't need to be a H/Hr shipper because its clear from book1 till 4 was Harrys friendship to Ron a lot closer as to Hermione. This change in GoF. Now is Hermione closer to Harry as Ron.

No you are right H/Hr friendship is not the same. Ron and Harry's is a bit deeper. Even know as in OoP.

Nice that you bold only the first part because a liitle bit longer and I see what I mean :'It's no good nagging me, it's done,'
This is only about this moment and not general.

I didn't want to make it worst but if you insist. The part about 'it's done' makes it even worst.

Thats not true not every Halloween happens something like we see in OotP.
And its not just something the fact is that on all Halloweens happens something bad but at this one something happens what isn't bad.

Wasn't Halloween around the time that Harry had the detention with Umbridge?

Or that Ginny is secretly connected with Voldemort, or that she is secretly a animagus.

My 9year old niece just finished OoP and she thinks that Ginny can become a cat.

Gily Ann

:clap: :clap: Prancer. Excellent work.

Nice posts today guys.

Prongs Sr

What I find the most interesting about your dismissal of the symbolism of Buckbeak is that you'd swear that we made it up. To read your posts we simply claim that the hippogriff is the symbol of love and that this cannot be verifed through independant sources.

Do you ever watch children's movies or cartoons? There are often elements in these movies and cartoons that not only appeal to kids but adults as well. Often in cartoons you see things that kids will not quite understand but the parents watching with the kids will get the little joke, such as in cartoons the undertakers is often named "Rigor O Mortis". Not many kids would pick up on that but quite a few adults will.

A good writer can engage a large audience on many levels. And JKR is a good writer so she has engage a large audience on many levels. This whole too complicated for kids takes away from JKR's ability to write on a level that appeals to a broad age group.

xray

This is a fair point. I think Hermione is jealous of Fleur not because Ron paid attention to her, but because all of the boys in the room were gawking at her. It doesn't necessarily mean Hermione is jealous that Ron was flirting with Fleur, but simply because of all the attention Fleur was getting.

Look at the scene again. Hermione responds to Fleur's attitude before we have even seen what she looks like. JKR wrote her as wrapped up from head to foot with a muffler around her face and then later established that it was indeed Fleur who had laughed at Dumbledore. It is Fleur's attitude that Hermione does not like.

Now JKR is a careful writer who often writes and rewrites her books time and time again. So we have to look at the fact that this careful writer has established a dislike between Hermione and Fleur based on Fleur's actions and attitude. She even makes sure that it cannot be tied to Fleur's looks in any way by keeping Fleur bound from head to foot with her face coverd until after Hermione's reaction. Coincidence, highly unlikely.

Also the idea that Hermione does not like the attention that Fleur is getting seems a little out of character for Hermione who places importance on accomplishments over looks.

Cheers!

No you are right H/Hr friendship is not the same. Ron and Harry's is a bit deeper. Even know as in OoP.


So deep that Ron almost lost his friendship with Harry because he was jealous of his fame?

I didn't want to make it worst but if you insist. The part about 'it's done' makes it even worst.

Worst? Why should this be worst? I mean Hermione didn't nagging him anymore about it, or? So I don't know why it should be worst.

Wasn't Halloween around the time that Harry had the detention with Umbridge?
No. He got detention in september. On the very first day as he had DADA he got detention.


My 9year old niece just finished OoP and she thinks that Ginny can become a cat.
She has a good teacher. Does she think H/G will happen? I guess she does.

All three of them bowed low to him, and after regardiing them imperiously for a moment, Buckbeak bent his scaly front knees, and allowed Hermione to rush forward and stroke his feathery neck. Harry, however, was looking at the black dog, which had just turned into his godfather.

(Emphasis mine)

Do you think this scene has any significance, symbolically? We all agree that Hippogriffs symbolize love right? Does this mean that Hermione recognizes love but Harry chooses to ignore it? Or perhaps get distracted (as is always the case)?

Good catch, very good catch! Because this shows what in OotP did happen, doesn't it? Its the Sirius-fight between them in OotP what jumps into my head because she wanted keep Harry save but Harry was focused at Sirius.

She has a good teacher. Does she think H/G will happen? I guess she does.

Although I would love to be her teacher, honestly speaking. It will be extremelly expensive since she lives in Guatemala and she doesn't have a computer yet. I can't afford the phone bill. I know that she thinks R/Hr have something going her mother mention something but until she comes in december I don't know for sure. When she comes in December for Xmas, I will let you know who she goes for.

No. He got detention in september. On the very first day as he had DADA he got detention.

Do you have the page # of it? Was halloween mention in this book?

Worst? Why should this be worst? I mean Hermione didn't nagging him anymore about it, or? So I don't know why it should be worst.

Because Harry is saying that Hermione nags so much that she nags about things that are already done.

So deep that Ron almost lost his friendship with Harry because he was jealous of his fame?

Yet they became closer and more friends after that. Trully a sign of their growing friendship. One that went thru a test and it survived and came out even stronger than it was.

Gily Ann

Do you have the page # of it? Was halloween mention in this book?

I can't remember that I did read something about Halloween in OotP. Well the Hog's head meeting was at the first october weekend. Maybe the first DA meeting was at Halloween or as Harry got banned from Quiditch. But its not said what day it is.


Because Harry is saying that Hermione nags so much that she nags about things that are already done.
Well, I disagree. This say Hermiones nagging is about this topic useless because its done this don't say she nagging always about things which aren't anymore changeable.

Not many kids would pick up on that but quite a few adults will.

But how many adults without a thorough grounding in classical allusions would pick up on the symbolism of a Hippogriff, or even think to look for it? Be honest, now. I won't deny there's reliable-looking, easily accessible information on the Internet that supports the theory, but it's far from uniform in agreement on that particular point, and outweighed by Harry Potter sites that have eagerly picked up on it.

Hi, madabouthermione
I wanted to respond to this:
We all agree that Hippogriffs symbolize love right?

I would like to say that we can all agree that ONE of the SEVERAL symbolic meanings assigned to the hippogriff is love, the others being impossible love, impossibility, strength and power…here are some examples I've found by searching around different texts and on the internet.

I've found things (from a variety of mythology sites/texts) that say that hippogryphs/hippogriffs themselves are the symbol of impossibility, or impossible love. Hippogriffs that "existed" for all intents and purposes, in mythology.


If the joining of two enemies into one sounds poetic, then you are correct. The birth of the Hippogryph can be narrowed down to a line in Virgil's Eclogues (c. 37 BC) as a symbol of impossible love.

Here's another:

"...soon shall we see mate Gryphons with mares, and in the coming age shy deer and hounds together come to drink..."

Griffins and horses were supposed to be mortal enemies. The Hippogriff symbolizes an impossible thing. There is an old expression "Jungentur jam grypes equis" which means "To cross griffons with horses", indicating an impossible scenario.

and another:

Hippogriffs, the offspring of a mare and a griffin, are considered to be a creation of storytellers and bards. As griffins were supposed to favor horses for food, it was originally used in literature as an example of an impossibility, like a child of a mouse and a cat. The first such reference is credited to Virgil. Later, the creature was used in poetry as a mythic beast capable of being tamed and ridden, as in the tales of Charlemagne's knights.

here is something that shows two opposing views:

"A legendary animal that has the foreparts of a winged griffin and the body and hindquarters of a horse. The creature was invented by Ludovico Ariosto in his Orlando furioso and was based on a proverbial phrase about crossing a griffin with a horse that was used to signify an impossibility or incongruity."
--Brittannica

"Hippogriff The winged horse, whose father was a griffin and mother a filly (Greek, hippos, a horse, and gryphos, a griffin). A symbol of love. (Ariosto: Orlando Furioso, iv. 18, 19.) "
--The Dictionary of Phrase and Fable

I think that the Britannica entry shows that the crossing of a griffin and a horse ( a hippogriff, right?) signifies an impossiblity or incongruity.

The Dictionary of Phrase and Fable entry says that the hippogriff is a symbol of love.

All I am saying is that it depends on the source – you can find sources that say a hippogriff symbolizes strength and power, impossibility, love, impossible love, and what have you. I know, I know – I've heard the rebuttal for this argument:


If it symbolised "impossible" love then by the definition of impossible: incapable of being or of occurring then the hippogriff itself couldn't exist. But since it does exist in the HP universe then the love can't be impossible.

And to that I say: The texts from which I pulled those previous quotes specifically say that it is the hippogriff itself, indeed the existence of the hippogriff, that symbolizes impossibility, impossible love, or love. This is from Virgil, and Orlando Furioso (the italian poem) -- the speculated originators of hippogriff in verse and prose. In the context of these quotes, the hippogriff exists, and because it was born of two unlikely parents, some people said it symbolized impossibility.

Search for hippogriff or hippogryph on the internet, and you'll find many different symbolic meanings for the animal.

So, in summary, no, we do not all agree that the hippogriff is a symbol for love – both in general (as it has been shown to have different symbolic meanings) and in the Harry Potter series (as it cannot be proven whether JKR intended Buckbeak to be a symbol of something AND, even if she DID, we don't know which of these symbolic meanings she assigned to Buckbeak).

I just had to re-post that. :D Carry on!
:clap:

Hippogriffs were a symbol of love?? :wow: didn't know that!

To all H/Hr shippers: Didn't JKR herself say that Harry and Hermione were just friends? Harry & hermione just don't have chemistry! It was after reading GoF that I saw it coming(R/Hr). Also aren't there any H/L shippers here? Sorry haven't read the whole thread. I think that ones most likely, because Luna was the only one harry didn't mind talking to about sirius.

Hawk92:
What I find the most interesting about your dismissal of the symbolism 8
of Buckbeak is that you'd swear that we made it up. To read your posts we simply claim that the hippogriff is the symbol of love and that this cannot be verifed through independant sources.

Do you ever watch children's movies or cartoons? There are often elements in these movies and cartoons that not only appeal to kids but adults as well. Often in cartoons you see things that kids will not quite understand but the parents watching with the kids will get the little joke, such as in cartoons the undertakers is often named "Rigor O Mortis". Not many kids would pick up on that but quite a few adults will

Hawk92: I'll be honest with you, even though I had previously heard of a hippogriff before, I had not realized that it can symbolically meant "impossible love" or "love between enemies". I've never accused your side of "making it up". If you are offended by the fact that I think "the buckbeak argument" is the weakest of all H/Hr arguments, then I'm sorry. Do you really think that children should have to refer to a book to understand the symbolic meaning? I don't. Of course I watch cartoons and kid's movies! I'm their mother and I want to know what is appropriate for them to watch and vice versa.

FP:

You know its for children complicated that a bad guy want to kill a child just because a prophecy say so. Or that Voldemort isn't really dead and not really alive. Or that Ginny is secretly connected with Voldemort, or that she is secretly a animagus.

My son understands these concepts and he is nine! Understanding the clues of a book is completely different that romance. A romance should not have to be explained.

Wait a better one that Ron likes or loves Hermione but don't act. Or that Hermione likes Ron but does nothing about it. I would rather say that a 12 year old understand Buckbeak a lot better for that he or she need just look into the net or about the runes for this you need just to look into the net but by R/Hr or H/G you can't do this. There you just guess and have to read some nice essay from other guys of this ship. By H/Hr you comes pretty alone to this conclusion even as 12 year old like prancer (between great post) shows

Again, if you have to look up definitions in a book to understand romantic symbolism, than you've failed as an author, imo.

Prancer:

Just wanted to add something here-(also, i personally understand buckbeak and the runes very well, but i'm pretty sure you're talking about 8 and 9 year olds)do you think children will also know and understand how jkr uses latin words to create her spells? Like accio means send for, or summon in latin, right? and "Crucio" is Latin for "to torture." Or will they understand and know how many of the characters got their names from legends, or constellations, or other languages? such as sirius- Named after the star Sirius, also known as the Dog Star. Seen during summer "dog" days.
or peeves- "Peeve" means "little devil" or something that gets on your nerves (like a pet peeve).
or nicholas flamel- Was a real alchemist, and supposedly DID create the Philosopher's Stone (not "Sorcerer's"). The tale was that he had spent decades of his life trying to create the Philosopher's Stone, which could turn any metal in to gold and unlock the secrets to immortality, but could not figure it out.(much credit to mugglenet for those)
or that all of them will truly grasp why the malfoy's hate people because of their bloodlines or fully understand the prophecy and what it means? Yes, i'm sure some of them do, children can be very smart, but basing my opinion on the little kids i know that read harry potter, and what i was like at that age and how much i knew, my answer is no. I'd also like to add that i was talking with some of the 8 year olds who take a little dance class before my advanced class while i was waiting for her to start, and they said they have had nightmares about the end of the 4th book. And i was reviewing the archives at tlc's quote section, and a lot of kids were talking about how the beginning of the 4th book was weird and confusing. And i know lots of kids didn't like angry harry in ootp because they couldn't understand why he was angry. So i think this shows she'll put it in the books whether children understand it or not. Like she said, at the end of the day she has to write the books for herself, she can't write them for anybody else.

Hi Prancer:

JKR has stated that she believes the books will be appropriate for ages 9 and up (all seven books). How a child of that age relates to the books, I think, depends on their reading ability and emotional maturity level. What is scary for one 9 year old, isn't scary for another. Regarding Nicholas Flamel, his role is explained clearly and an eight-year-old, while probably not knowing that he was based on a real person, can grasp the point of "turning metal into gold".


.

Great post guys! :clap: And an extra one to prancer & Hawk :clap:


If you are going to use Hermione not liking Ron's perfume as a reason why R/Hr will not get together, than I think it only fitting that I use Harry's throwing of the homework planner that Hermione got him at Fred (Ootp, page 502). Perfume as a gift does have romantic connations and Hermione does not say that she hates the gift; she says it's unusual.


Oh, the homework planner. You do know that only Harry's talked, right? Also, the perfume is unusual. Do I need to go find Hawk's analysis of this scene? She tells Harry thank you for the gift and the sentence even ends with an exclamation point, whereas she never thanked Ron for his gift, called it unusual, and the sentence ended with a period. Clearly, she liked Harry's gift more than Ron's.


I agree that children can pick up on H/Hr becoming friends, because they are friends and their friendship is not subtle. Ron and Hermione bickering with Hermione being jealous because Fleur kissed Ron is not difficult to pick up upon, as is the goodluck Quidditch kiss, in where Ron has a reaction (acting like he is in a daze and holding his hand over his cheek), in complete contrast to Harry, where there is nothing from Harry. Harry laughing at the thought of H/Hr is not exactly subtle. Hermione playing "matchmaker" without the slightest indication of jealousy is obvious to children. I suppose we could go round and round over what we consider obvious to children or not.


If you want to use jealousy, then I notice continually ignore the fact that Krum (Hermione's boyfriend in GoF) was jealous of Harry, and Cho (Harry's girlfriend in OotP) was jealous of Hermione. Kids pick up on the fact the Harry & Hermione's steadies were jealous of the other and will notice that something is up. They may not know what exactly, but they will notice that something is there.


The point I was trying to make is the "Buckbeak symbolism" is too difficult for this age range to pick up on, as it is for most adults, since there is no connection with H/Hr, rather more of a connection with Sirius and Hagrid. These are written for children, as well as adults, and I feel that JKR will write the clues and hints in a more obvious manner that kids can understand.


But JKR has also said not to underestimate children. Why in the world would she want to write down to make it easier for the kids to understand, when as a teacher (who she clearly was) she wants these kids to notice, reread, and find things they missed. It's all part of becoming a better reader.


I would like to say that we can all agree that ONE of the SEVERAL symbolic meanings assigned to the hippogriff is love, the others being impossible love, impossibility, strength and power…here are some examples I've found by searching around different texts and on the internet.


You do realize that because Hippogriff's are possible in the HP world that JKR has created that it would no longer mean mean impossible love, but just love.

Hippogriff's was a term used in our society to denote the impossibility of something. It was used the same way as we use today's notion of flying pigs. And what do you know, JKR even has flying pigs in her world. :agree:

Sarmi

Well, I would like to share a theory about Ron and Hermione, about the way this characters are used in the series and why I think they can fit as a couple in the future.

The main character of the story is Harry. Harry is the most developed character of the series, he is the most fleshed, we see things through his eyes and know his feelings and thoughts with detail.
Then there are two secondary characters that are Ron and Hermione. They are the second characters in quantity and quality of screen time, but we didnt know their inside. We judge them from Harrys point of view. I called in a previous post sidekicks, but I get a response that led me to think this term has a negative meaning in english, so I will call them secondary main characters.
And then came a lot of secondary characters like Dumbledore, Mcgonagall, Snape... and below this level are background characters as Parvati, Susan Bones, Dean Thomas...

well, I think the role that Ron and Hermione had in Harrys life is that they are two sides of Harrys personality. Ron has the same emotions as Harry has but taken to a extreme level. Hermione is rational as Harry can be but to a exagerate plane. Harry is in the middle, he is the balanced one.

What is the purpose of this kind of Characters?. To make things easier to read and understand. With a Harry on his own, We could be forced to read a lot of inside monologues that are boring and confusing. With a character outside of Harry sharing his emotions or thoughts, the autor can explain things in a dialectical way.

I think a good example of this is the scene when Harry takes Ron and Hermione to an empty class and he explains them that he had a vision of Voldemort torturing Sirius. Hermione had a rational response. She starts making answers, finding holes in Harrys vision and in fact reaches to the right conclusion. Ron had an emotional response. This happens bc this vision mirrors Harrys vision at Christmas of his father being attacked by a giant snake that ended with his father at the hospital.Arthur survives thanks to a quick response from the Order. Ron revives this dificult moments when he feeled near the death of his father and this feelings made him irrational. So, One character shows us how Harry is feeling, the other shows us what Harry will be thinking if this emotions wouldnt be blocking his head.

Another example is Harrys love story with Cho. When Harry needed someone to explain how a girl thinks and how to handle a relationship, he searchs for Hermione. When he lets his feelings of frustration domine him, example after Cho stands by her friend Marietta , he searchs for Rons support, and Ron critizies Marietta with all his heart. One gives Harry information, the other gives Harry emotional empathy.

So, why I think this leads to a romance between them?. We can think that so different characters could be totally uncompatible and they will be apart. That they can be Harrys friends but no mutual friends, but this is not the case. They have a comon basis of loyalty , and the fact is that they spent all the time together. When Harry is on his own and wants to talk to his friends, misteriously Ron and Hermione are always side by side talking, walking, studying, eating... so we can asume that they are growing together. They have arguments, of course, but as they see in OOTP they didnt see it as something serious and they get offended when someone interrupts them. I didnt see them as uncompatible personalities, I see them as complementary personalities bc one have what the other lacks.

I hope my point is clear. What do you think?

Hi, Flying Phoenix!. I've read your post and I found some things to discuss about. Of course, I disagree, but I think this time the guilt is on the spanish translation of the book Chamber of Secrets.

To begin, In Harrys dream about Hermione as prefect, yes, I agree that Hermy , in real life, would be at Kreacher side bc she is nice to him. But look, thats a dream. In this dream Harry shows us that he sees Hermy distant from him. Of course she is out of character, but Mrs Wesley is also in this situation, she is crying over Kreacher's body and she didnt like House elves (prejudice) and she is not upset bc the prefect badge is given to Ron instead of Harry (she is proud of her son).

But Harry sees her in his dream crying over him bc he just have seen her worst fear and this vision shows that Mrs Wesley cares about him as if he were one of her sons. So, to show us someone showing support of him, he thinks on Mrs Wesley even when she has no reasons to be there, she is also Out of Character but a dream is simbolic. And I repeat, in this dreams we didnt see closeness between Hermy and Harry (Kreacher). This is unfair to Hermy but shows us how Harry thinks about her in his mind.

About the Ron as a defensor of Hermy, as I say, in the Chamber of Secrets spanish version, we have two scenes in wich Draco says somethin like "last time the chamber was opened, a mudblood died. I Hope this time is Granger". The only reference to Hermy as a Mudblood is in the first sentence. So I thinked that the reason Ron reacted in a violent was because D. wishes the death of Hermione, no because he calls her mudblood. Yes, when they are in the dungeon with Crabbe and Goyles faces, Ron is stretching his fists so we didnt know if he started doing this at the mention of Mudblood or at the end of the sentence, but the other scene, in Snapes class, shows us Ron jumping at Draco when he says "I hope this time is Granger", and is kept by Harry, Seamus and Dean, he keeps shouting something like "let me alone, I can get him without a wand!".
The scene with snape in Poa is different also. Snape questions to the class about why they didnt know how to recognice a werewolf. Hermione answers that question and Snape punishes her taking points from Griffindor and calling her a unbearable knowitall. Everybody shuts (even Harry), Hermione seems afected bc of this, she hides her face, I asume she was starting to cry, and The only one who faces Snape is Ron. Ron, who used to call her know it twice a week yes, but we can asume that he never caused this efect to her. He says in high voice Why he makes a question if he didnt want an answer. And he is punished too. So, I think this scene didnt shows us that Ron faces Snape bc he feels guilty, he faces Snape bc what Snape did afected Hermione and Ron is upset with this.
The scene of Gof I was talking about is the scene when Hermy gets hitted by Dracos jinx and her teeth grow larger than usual. Ron is the first one to be at her side and he inspects the damage. In this scene snape says somethin like "she is perfectly normal" and Hermy runs away crying. Harry and Ron shout to Snape and Snape punishes both. Harry thinks this will end the row with Ron, but Ron sits on another desk.In this scene we see that Ron has an argument with Harry but he stills care for Hermione. He is not with her because she is the friend of his best friend. Thats how I see it.

Whant more scenes of Ron caring for Hermione?. There are a lot of scenes in Gof in wich Ron is worried about Hermys argument with Rita, he thinks Hr is in danger, as we see when she receives blackmail. There are more but I think I must reread the books to point them here (and now Ive got a lot of things to read, hehe!)

And I whant to make you a question about a previous post. Ive taken this quote:
"
No, I say its unrealistic to say that Harry have to like
Hermione since his 1 year. Don't R/Hr argue that Harry don't
like her? Don't they say he was never attracted to her? Now
who does like a girl right from the beginning with 11 years?
Not Ron and Not Harry. So don't argue and tell me Harry don't
like her. He is 15 and not 25. He did meet her with 11 and not
21. He can't be in love since his first year. You aren't
interested till 14 in girls and than its starts. You see them
in a new light.
So you can't argue against H/Hr at hands of book1 till 5.
Because this is pretty much the time of puberty. Its absolut
normal that Harry a teenager yells at Hermione in OotP. Have
you any Idea how often I did see this?
That you yell the most and beeing angry the most to the one
you like the most? You think thats impossible? Its not you're
the most unfair to the one you like. How confusing puberty is
thats possible the most confusing thing that you're unfair to
the one you love the most. You say things you shouldn't say
and Harry acts exactly like that he yells the most time with
Ron and Hermione. Is unfair to them because those the most
important persons in his live. Thats why its stand again out
that Harry yells and is annoyed by Hermione the most this say
she is important. Probably more important as Harry know it
himself.
__________________

Well, if you can see a relation like that in H/Hr, Why cant you accept a Ron /Hermione romance?. Ron is the one who at the age of 14 see Hermione in a new light. And in the time of puberty, he yells at Hermione being (i think) the one he likes the most, as you say, because puberty is a confusing age. And the worst fight between them is a fight when Ron, wich he has started to see Hermione as a girl and not only as a friend, sees her in a ball (romantic environment) in a date with another boy. Thats how I see it. The scene in OOTP in wich Ron feels jealous of Hermione being in contact with Krum and saying something like "He didnt want to be only a penfriend!" remarks to us the reason of this jealousy.




Hawk92, I also can explain why Mrs. Weasley didnt think about Ron as romantically involved With Hermione. As we see in OOTP, Mrs Weasley is a overprotective mother. I think she still sees his son as a two yeaor lod crying baby, so he would not think about him romantically involved with a girl until he is a 35 year old with a family of his own.

Hawkmoon, it is not a bad theory but it has too many holes in it.

Hawkmoon, great post and :welcome: to the Love Thread.

However, it's best if you don't double post. Use the edit button on the lower right hand side of your post to add more to your orignial post or take away.

Sarmi

First you're theory about Ron and Hermione. I do agree that they are in someways represent both side of Harrys mind. But there is a but and that is Hermione isn't just Harrys mind. Like we did see in the past. She is very emotional, too. And not just a brain. She is out off this character and thats important. She isn't only Harrys reason she do off all three react the most emotional. She does even overplay Ron's emotional role. Thats why I disagree.

To begin, In Harrys dream about Hermione as prefect, yes, I agree that Hermy , in real life, would be at Kreacher side bc she is nice to him. But look, thats a dream. In this dream Harry shows us that he sees Hermy distant from him. Of course she is out of character, but Mrs Wesley is also in this situation, she is crying over Kreacher's body and she didnt like House elves (prejudice) and she is not upset bc the prefect badge is given to Ron instead of Harry (she is proud of her son).

But Harry sees her in his dream crying over him bc he just have seen her worst fear and this vision shows that Mrs Wesley cares about him as if he were one of her sons. So, to show us someone showing support of him, he thinks on Mrs Wesley even when she has no reasons to be there, she is also Out of Character but a dream is simbolic. And I repeat, in this dreams we didnt see closeness between Hermy and Harry (Kreacher). This is unfair to Hermy but shows us how Harry thinks about her in his mind.

I don't say it otherwise but my point is that Harry see himself as Kreacher in this dream to get Hermiones attention but he don't get it. See what I mean in both universums Hermione's passion is to free elves but in the dream she don't give him her attention because she is too busy to stay at Ron's side.
Harry's dream is false because this dream include not just is feeling to be alone and unloved its shows his fear that Hermione does change, that she is like he dream. But she isn't in reality.
See Harry didn't get why Hermione didn't leave his side in GoF though as Harry had to choice in PoA he did chose Ron so he did expect in GoF that Hermione would do the same, chose Ron but she didn't. This is what he don't understand. Not in GoF and for sure not in OotP. So he fears that Hermione do leave his side, like in his dream to chose Ron over him. But again Hermione don't does this.
This dream shows how Harrys mind work, what fears he has but not how he see his relationship with Hermione. This dream is a dream full with Harrys fears to be left out.

but the other scene, in Snapes class, shows us Ron jumping at Draco when he says "I hope this time is Granger", and is kept by Harry, Seamus and Dean, he keeps shouting something like "let me alone, I can get him without a wand!".

I did look this up in all scenes in COS if Ron react than Malfoy say "Mudblood" in every scene. There is no scene where Ron react only by insulting Hermione.

The scene of Gof I was talking about is the scene when Hermy gets hitted by Dracos jinx and her teeth grow larger than usual. Ron is the first one to be at her side and he inspects the damage. In this scene snape says somethin like "she is perfectly normal" and Hermy runs away crying. Harry and Ron shout to Snape and Snape punishes both. Harry thinks this will end the row with Ron, but Ron sits on another desk.In this scene we see that Ron has an argument with Harry but he stills care for Hermione. He is not with her because she is the friend of his best friend. Thats how I see it.

Ron don't defend Hermione thats the point. He let Malfoy call her mudblood without any reaction. Only as he hit her with a jinx he runs to her but he is insensitiv there because he did force her hands away though they all could see it pretty good what had happened to her. Hermione didn't want to show it and seriously it was clear that Snape didn't care. Why not bring her to the hospital wing and not force her to show it.
Ron don't care enough to defend Hermione though there was plenty much time even Hermione could say something but not Ron.

Whant more scenes of Ron caring for Hermione?. There are a lot of scenes in Gof in wich Ron is worried about Hermys argument with Rita, he thinks Hr is in danger, as we see when she receives blackmail. There are more but I think I must reread the books to point them here (and now Ive got a lot of things to read, hehe!)

I don't say Ron don't care. I say he don't care more as a friend thats what R/Hr does argue that he is Hermiones knight in shiny armor but he isn't and she don't need it.


Well, if you can see a relation like that in H/Hr, Why cant you accept a Ron /Hermione romance?. Ron is the one who at the age of 14 see Hermione in a new light. And in the time of puberty, he yells at Hermione being (i think) the one he likes the most, as you say, because puberty is a confusing age. And the worst fight between them is a fight when Ron, wich he has started to see Hermione as a girl and not only as a friend, sees her in a ball (romantic environment) in a date with another boy. Thats how I see it. The scene in OOTP in wich Ron feels jealous of Hermione being in contact with Krum and saying something like "He didnt want to be only a penfriend!" remarks to us the reason of this jealousy.

I tell you why because as 14 year old boy you don't stay always in a crush like Harry did proof with H/C. His crush didn't stay always and he is already introvert. But Ron falls with 14 and should still have a crush with 16 without any changes? This is much to expect. I do expect its wear off because this does with crushs. We see already changes in OotP Ron don't react as if he has any feelings for Hermione. In GoF you could think he has feeling like that but in OotP did it wear off pretty much. Than we have a Hermione who calls Ron names, to shut up and all this things and on the other hand take it that Harry yells at her. She is devensiv if Harry yells or argue. She don't yell back she is pretty much different as to Ron that Ron see. He watch this and watch that she isn't sorry that she didn't saw him play. Its more Hermione's doing what let me think R/Hr won't happen.

And Hawkmoon don't doublepost use this edit button so you can add some stuff to your first post

Hi everyone, I am back from vacation and I am just checking in.

I just want to thank everyone here, I learned a lot of new things here about hippogriffs. I didn't realize all the different symbolisms that they represent. I am not sure that I entirely agree about the hippogriff/H/Hr theory in general. The scene itself could have a romantic context if you think about it visually....boy and girl flying off in the sky together. But and here is my big BUT (not on my body silly) I can't see such romance in it because of their age. But I don't think that we can assume JKR meaning of the hippogriff because she could mean something quite differently.

I realize that most H/Hr shippers feel that the imagery that surround passages written about H/Hr support that eventually they will get together and for some of that I will totally agree. I just don't feel that every scene that H/Hr are in can be construed that they will happen. There has to be some physical interaction between the two, not just pretty sounding words. Yes there has been instances of physical interaction, Buckbeak, time turner but I have a tendency to really discount these as romantic because of their age. I really do think that Harry's protectiveness of Hermione in OotP indicate more physicalness between them. I guess we will have to wait until book 6 to see if they develope more towards a physical relationship that is geared more towards romance than a physical relationship that is based on emotional or dangerous situations like it is now.

I hope that this makes sense, I am feeling quite goofy right now.

Cheers,
Buttercup

I realize that most H/Hr shippers feel that the imagery that surround passages written about H/Hr support that eventually they will get together and for some of that I will totally agree. I just don't feel that every scene that H/Hr are in can be construed that they will happen.

This I agree with completely. For me, it is the most important things. They are both are little and huge. Like amongst the trio, Harry is the first to be hugged by Hermione and the first to be kissed. I mean, Hermione has never shed tears over anybody's welfare except Harry's. When she is scared, if she is described as holding on to anyone, it is always Harry. These are little things but they are important. These are not important because Hermione does these things, but they are important because it is always Harry who Hermione is doing this for.

Hawkmoon

Hawk92, I also can explain why Mrs. Weasley didnt think about Ron as romantically involved With Hermione. As we see in OOTP, Mrs Weasley is a overprotective mother. I think she still sees his son as a two yeaor lod crying baby, so he would not think about him romantically involved with a girl until he is a 35 year old with a family of his own.

You're failing to account for Molly's easter egg gift to Hermione. Other than that I disagree with this theory greatly.

Prongs Sr

Hawk92: I'll be honest with you, even though I had previously heard of a hippogriff before, I had not realized that it can symbolically meant "impossible love" or "love between enemies". I've never accused your side of "making it up". If you are offended by the fact that I think "the buckbeak argument" is the weakest of all H/Hr arguments, then I'm sorry. Do you really think that children should have to refer to a book to understand the symbolic meaning? I don't. Of course I watch cartoons and kid's movies! I'm their mother and I want to know what is appropriate for them to watch and vice versa.

No need to be sorry. No offense was taken. I was simply addressing your rebuttal.

I have never posted on the symbolism of the hippogriff. I do not base my theories, proofs, anaylsis, or rebuttals on symbolism, that is not my side of the ship. I was merely pointing out that we didn't make that up and the hippogriff is a symbol for love.

Why shouldn't children refer to other sources to find out what a hippogriff symbolizes? It would encourage the children to keep reading. It would keep them involved in the books. I, for one, am glad when my kids want to read about things that happened in a story to better understand what the story is. And as I have pointed out many authors use different levels in their books. Should a child have to use a book to find out that Dumbledore means Bumblebee. But JKR said that was a part of why he loved music (chamber to be exact) because she often pictured him going around humming like a bee. And haycheng also pointed out that his sister knew what a Hippogriff symbolized. His sister was 13 or so I believe. Now I don't understand why you think that JKR, an ex teacher, would not want to encourage and challenge kids to look deeper and do a little research.

I really am glad that you are concerned with what your kids watch, I also keep a close eye on what my kids watch. That's how I got into Harry Potter (long story). But it didn't really address my question of did you notice that even in cartoons there are often many levels of meaning meant to appeal to a broad audience.

Rowena Ravenclaw

Great to see you back,

But how many adults without a thorough grounding in classical allusions would pick up on the symbolism of a Hippogriff, or even think to look for it? Be honest, now. I won't deny there's reliable-looking, easily accessible information on the Internet that supports the theory, but it's far from uniform in agreement on that particular point, and outweighed by Harry Potter sites that have eagerly picked up on it.

Hard to tell really. In the states a lot of schools do study the ancient Greek legends and myths. Edith Hamilton is well known to quite a few high school teenagers where I went to school at. And as I said to Prongs Sr a good author doesn't mind if you have to do a little looking to get the different layers in their books. It keeps you engaged. How many times does one hear, I love that (blank) every time I (watch, read, listen, etc.) I pick up something new. And as I also pointed out how many adults would know that Dumbledore means bumblebee. But JKR pointed out that was a reason for his liking of music.

Cheers!

Great Job, Prancer :clap: , Flying Phoenix, Hawk and fellow Harmionians!

Originally posted by Carina:

I don't think knowing all this background information on Latin is very important. Children may not understand (or need to) this.
But the Hermione/Ron hints are obvious by J.K Rowling because she wants little kids to get the hint. Though she says she is writing for herself, at the end of the day, she knows she is also writing to her millions of fans out there, especially the little ones.

We were just discussing the importance of even the small details in JKR's writing. The Latin, the astronomical references, the symbolism, all of it is very important. Not only are these elements a part of the rich fabric of JKR's world, they often serve as foreshadowing shorthand and a source of hidden clues. Prancer, BTW, was responding to an earlier post which rather disparaged the depth of children's understanding and their ability to see those elements that JKR has hidden.

Cheers,
Nia

Hi, Sarmi.

Just to clarify, on this point:
You do realize that because Hippogriff's are possible in the HP world that JKR has created that it would no longer mean mean impossible love, but just love.


If you'll notice, actually, I addressed this in my earlier post. Here is what I said:

I've heard the rebuttal for this (my) argument:


If it symbolised "impossible" love then by the definition of impossible: incapable of being or of occurring, then the hippogriff itself couldn't exist. But since it does exist in the HP universe then the love can't be impossible.

And to that I say: The texts from which I pulled those previous quotes specifically say that it is the hippogriff itself, indeed the existence of the hippogriff, that symbolizes impossibility, impossible love, or love. This is from Virgil, and Orlando Furioso (the italian poem) -- the speculated originators of hippogriff in verse and prose. In the context of these quotes, the hippogriff exists, and because it was born of two unlikely parents, some people said it symbolized impossibility.

here are my source quotes again:


Hippogriffs, the offspring of a mare and a griffin, are considered to be a creation of storytellers and bards. As griffins were supposed to favor horses for food, it was originally used in literature as an example of an impossibility, like a child of a mouse and a cat. The first such reference is credited to Virgil. Later, the creature was used in poetry as a mythic beast capable of being tamed and ridden, as in the tales of Charlemagne's knights.

If the joining of two enemies into one sounds poetic, then you are correct. The birth of the Hippogryph can be narrowed down to a line in Virgil's Eclogues (c. 37 BC) as a symbol of impossible love.

the very fact that the hippogriff exists in the HP series does NOT negate the possibility of the hippogriff symbolizing impossibility or impossible love. In fact, it was the believed or fabricated existence of the hippogriff that Virgil and others who are credited with originating hippogriff lore that actually represented the impossible thing, not the non-existence of it (the hippogriff).

Hawk92:

Why shouldn't children refer to other sources to find out what a hippogriff symbolizes? It would encourage the children to keep reading. It would keep them involved in the books. I, for one, am glad when my kids want to read about things that happened in a story to better understand what the story is. And as I have pointed out many authors use different levels in their books. Should a child have to use a book to find out that Dumbledore means Bumblebee. But JKR said that was a part of why he loved music (chamber to be exact) because she often pictured him going around humming like a bee. And haycheng also pointed out that his sister knew what a Hippogriff symbolized. His sister was 13 or so I believe. Now I don't understand why you think that JKR, an ex teacher, would not want to encourage and challenge kids to look deeper and do a little research.

There seems to be a general misconception to the point I was trying to make, so I'll try to make it clear that, when referring to children not understanding "hidden" meanings, I was speaking of romance only. I am not underestimating childrens' abilities to understand some of the hidden clues, either on first read and later on. My son is fascinated with the Latin language and its use in HP and always notices little details on his second read. Romance, however, is all about feelings, not "hidden clues". I personally believe (for children and adults) that a romance has to be successfully "out there" in text, i.e. "next time there's a ball, ask me first and not as a last resort!".

This question originally came up by a poster (can't remember who) who stated that these books are not written with children in mind, and I'm simply pointing out that they are written with the age group 9 and up, as JKR said so in an interview and that I feel romance cannot be hidden with "secret clues", it needs to be out in the open. R/Hr is such a romance and my daughter even picked up on H/G on her read-thru. She thought Ginny would make the perfect wife for Harry because they have a lot in common and they both like chocolate! hee hee (kids are so cute).

I really am glad that you are concerned with what your kids watch, I also keep a close eye on what my kids watch. That's how I got into Harry Potter (long story). But it didn't really address my question of did you notice that even in cartoons there are often many levels of meaning meant to appeal to a broad audience.

Yes, I agree with you on this, but generally, in romance, it is not hidden to the viewer. A successful romance without indicators or build-up will leave a reader feeling flat and emotionally detached.

NIA:

We were just discussing the importance of even the small details in JKR's writing. The Latin, the astronomical references, the symbolism, all of it is very important. Not only are these elements a part of the rich fabric of JKR's world, they often serve as foreshadowing shorthand and a source of hidden clues. Prancer, BTW, was responding to an earlier post which rather disparaged the depth of children's understanding and their ability to see those elements that JKR has hidden

None of us are being disrespectful of childrens' abilities here, Nia. Why do you feel that an author needs to hide a clue to romance via the hippogryph, for example? The average child is not going to understand this (much less the average adult reader), unless they have some reference point in regards to romance, i.e. James and Lily riding on the hippogryph in a flashback. This is my biggest pet peeve with H/hr argument on the hippogryph. There is no association with the hippogryph and "love". Buckbeak is Hagrid's pet first, then Sirius'.

Love and romance should not be a guessing game!

On Hermione and Dumbledore

My remarks did not have to do with Dumbledore’s unwillingness to speak to Harry face to face, which is a critical plot issue, as much as his not understanding Harry the person as well as Hermione. He was unable to correctly predict how Harry would behave under the circumstances he himself had set in place.
My remarks were not concerning Dumbledore’s unwillingness to speak with Harry either. The text you quoted (from:The Lost Prophecy) was apt. The whole point of OotP was the creation of a new order. Dumbledore’s Army – the new Order of the Phoenix. Dumbledore’s fallability writ large as the baton is officially passed to Harry. And to this day I still haven’t worked out whether ’The Only One He Ever Feared’ refers to Dumbledore or Harry. Those were critical themes, Nia. That Hermione appeared on occasion to show greater perceptiveness than Dumbledore is a necessary consequence of these themes. Indeed she is but one of number of Harry’s allies to thereby achieve prominence. Of course, as some of your shipmates might say (though not you, of course) JK didn’t need to write it this way :whistle: . But then we’d have an entirely different story.

Originally Posted by Daveydee,
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You say that you see a growing bond between Harry and Hermione which provides you with the self-evident conclusion that they are ultimately to be romantically paired.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To which I replied:

No, I would never presume to say I knew anything to do with the ships beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Daveydee:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I aplologise if I misunderstood, but my remark (above) was in response to this :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by me
Given no startling twists or surprises in her narrative, H/Hr is self-evident to me.

Daveydee:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
which was from your previous post.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I’ve noticed a distinct pattern on this thread to ignore qualifiers placed into statements, especially regarding H/Hr.

You will notice that I qualified my statement with “Given no startling twists or surprises”. A startling twist or surprise, as I indicated in my response to Turmabar, would be for me a sudden deepening of the Ron and Hermione relationship OR Harry developing a regard for Luna which exceeds his current regard for Hermione. Either one of those developments would throw a gremlin in the works.
I do try not to ignore such qualifiers. I merely assumed that as you hitherto have had no startling twists or turns that you presently see H/Hr as self-evident.

Concerning the natural process of deepening friendship

I still affirm, however, that Harry and Hermione’s relationship goes beyond a normal close friendship. She obsesses over his state of well-being, she has broken rules, attacked a teacher, skipped homework and study time, been up until all hours for Harry. I think that qualifies as going a bit beyond what is normal friendship.
Could I ask you to give some thought to this? If Hermione were a male how would you view the friendship?

On the possibility of Harry/??? and Ron/Hermione.

I don’t quite catch your intent here. If my preferred scenario plays out along with all of its symbolic references, there cannot be a Ron/Hermione relationship. Of course, if you are referring to a possible Harry and Luna, then, of course a Ron and Hermione relationship could also develop, but that wouldn’t make it any more intellectually appealing to me.

I don’t believe that Ron and Hermione would be sickly sweet, (well, maybe just ) but it would be hackneyed and banal and not worth discussing in any forum since it is the romantic standard in current teen books and teen movies and teen advice columns, ad nauseum. There would be nothing intellectual to discuss. It would be like every other cute teen moment I’ve read, maybe funny and bittersweet, but ultimately without substance, like cotton candy (I believe in England it is called candy floss).

Harry and Hermione are two outsiders who never quite fit into this extraordinary wizarding world of theirs. Because of this, they see things from a different perspective than their mutual friend, Ron. They become friends under the most extraordinary of circumstances and develop, through the course of their friendship, a deepening respect and regard for each other. They esteem each other’s superlative talents while, at the same time, regarding each other’s basic humanity and inherent compassion. This is something you don’t see all the time. Now, were JKR to write their relationship as a key to destroying Voldmort’s poisonous evil, it would have tremendous symbolic implications.
I too eschew banality, Nia; but that is a stark comparison you’ve painted there. A huge picture of black and white. What about the myriad shades of grey that exist between those polarities? Do they not exist? JK is a fine author – is it not within her capability to write a Ron/Hermione romance that challenges we big thinkers? And even if she wrote it with little substance isn’t it the case that whilst we might enjoy our regular feasts of juicy fillet steak, sometimes what we really want is a succulent burger?

None of us are being disrespectful of childrens' abilities here, Nia. Why do you feel that an author needs to hide a clue to romance via the hippogryph, for example? The average child is not going to understand this (much less the average adult reader), unless they have some reference point in regards to romance, i.e. James and Lily riding on the hippogryph in a flashback. This is my biggest pet peeve with H/hr argument on the hippogryph. There is no association with the hippogryph and "love". Buckbeak is Hagrid's pet first, then Sirius'.

Love and romance should not be a guessing game!

Right, H/Hr is a guessing game. Why has this ship young supporter If its that much guessing. I rather think H/G is guessing but thats just me. H/Hr is the easiest ship because like many said the Hero get the girl though I hate this term and though I don't agree thats true is it still the easiest way to think. H/G is rather complicated because first Ginny has a crush Harry isn't in the slightes interest. Now book5 Ginny is over Harry and speaks to him and in book6 or 7 Harry starts to fall for Ginny just because she did open one year her mouth.
Than we have R/Hr. Who would guess that this two comes together? Hermione and Ron are friends, do fight, bicker, call each other names aren't that much respectful to each other. Again a pair where one falls for the one and the other one is bound to fall too.

To clues why they hide thats quiet simple even the Hogwarts Motto is in latin there does it already start. Or how it comes to Parseltonge or how this work with animagus. But the biggest and the most confusing thing in this books is PoA the whole book is probably nothing for kids after your interpretation. Because not even grown ups understand how Timetraveling works or how is it with the Dementors. This isn't a book what can everybody understand. Till today I'm guessing could Lupin see them on the map or not because there have to be two H/Hr on the map.

Or the whole prophecy. That this don't say Harry has to murder Voldemort. It don't say he is the only one who can kill him and it don't say that Harry get more power or If Voldi get more power. What about the whole blood-status? What is Harry a pureblood or halfblood? I say Halfblood and JKR agrees with me but other say he is pureblood because both parents were wizards. How work it that muggleborns are possible? Where there once a wizard in this family? What about squibs?

Or better what about the Dursleys? How does this work with this lovebound?

You can't say H/Hr is guessing if the whole HP books are guessing or rather twisted. There is no book which you open and read the till the middle and knows how it ends. Not one of the 5 books is like that why should it by romance be different? Till middle of this serie you think its H/G and at the end is it H/Hr what you never did expect that call I a romance a la JKR. And I expect this unexpected. Like I didn't think Snape is the bad guy, or Malfoy the heir, or Black a bad guy, or that Moody was all kind and sweet, or that Black was ever in the hands of good old Voldi.

FP:

You can't say H/Hr is guessing if the whole HP books are guessing or rather twisted. There is no book which you open and read the till the middle and knows how it ends. Not one of the 5 books is like that why should it by romance be different? Till middle of this serie you think its H/G and at the end is it H/Hr what you never did expect that call I a romance a la JKR. And I expect this unexpected. Like I didn't think Snape is the bad guy, or Malfoy the heir, or Black a bad guy, or that Moody was all kind and sweet, or that Black was ever in the hands of good old Voldi.

I would agree in a mystery novel, but in a romance novel, the love interest is always introduced early and it is not a matter of figuring out "who" will get together, but rather "when" they will get together and what "obstacles" will they have to overcome before getting together.

I would agree in a mystery novel, but in a romance novel, the love interest is always introduced early and it is not a matter of figuring out "who" will get together, but rather "when" they will get together and what "obstacles" will they have to overcome before getting together.

JKR's style is that from a mystery book. She fancy romance-novels which are exactly like that. I don't think and I don't expect that she can change her write style just to write a easy guessing romance. I really doubt this because It won't fit into this books its like someone else did write that part but not JKR. This have to fit into the story and a easy to figuring romance don't fit not at all. Thats why R/Hr exist and H/G as redhearing. Without this hearings we did all along know including the other ships that H/Hr will happen.

Originally by Mad I Moody
the very fact that the hippogriff exists in the HP series does NOT negate the possibility of the hippogriff symbolizing impossibility or impossible love. In fact, it was the believed or fabricated existence of the hippogriff that Virgil and others who are credited with originating hippogriff lore that actually represented the impossible thing, not the non-existence of it (the hippogriff).

Plus Orlando Furioso's tale is one of impossible love. It's some sort of farmer in the dell, thing. Silly to be honest. In medieval times people actually believe that Hipograff existed but you still had that saying of when horse mates a griffing it will happen. Once again the problem of the hipograff is that JKR never said in the books that the hipograff were a sign of love it can't be explain later because JKR considers that cheating the reader.

in a romance novel, the love interest is always introduced early and it is not a matter of figuring out "who" will get together, but rather "when" they will get together and what "obstacles" will they have to overcome before getting together.

I agree Prongs, Sr. the whole point of the romance is to be able to enyoy it. Look back and read it again.

Gily Ann

I agree Prongs, Sr. the whole point of the romance is to be able to enyoy it. Look back and read it again.

Thats by the other way just the same only that its not so easy is to guess and you read again.

the very fact that the hippogriff exists in the HP series does NOT negate the possibility of the hippogriff symbolizing impossibility or impossible love. In fact, it was the believed or fabricated existence of the hippogriff that Virgil and others who are credited with originating hippogriff lore that actually represented the impossible thing, not the non-existence of it (the hippogriff).

I understood everything that you said, and I applaud you for your hard work.

However, all those dictionary references are working from a classic standpoint dated in our world. Notice what you said above, "it was the believed or fabricated existence of the hippogriff that Virgil and others who are credited with originating hippogriff lore that actually represented the impossible thing . . ."

Basically saying that even in Virgil and the others works, they never gave physical life to the idea of Hippogriff's, but just used it as a reference to the impossible. JKR, on the otherhand, does not use it as reference to the impossible because it is an actual animal in her world. Whereas in Virgil and the other's world, it was not, it was a fabricated idea/saying.

Virgil and Homer created the lore of Hippogriff's to symbolize the impossiblity because at that time, that is what they would have referred it to, just like our modern day of "When pigs fly . . ."

However, in JKR's world Hippogriff's DO exist. Since they exist and is not a fabricated idea, then they do not represent anything impossible.


I would agree in a mystery novel, but in a romance novel, the love interest is always introduced early and it is not a matter of figuring out "who" will get together, but rather "when" they will get together and what "obstacles" will they have to overcome before getting together.


You're right. But, if it was so obvious as to who were to get together, then why is there a major rift in the fandom with R/Hr and H/Hr? Just by this question alone, I would guess that JKR is treating the romance side as apart of a mystery.

Sarmi

A couple of small things:

Some R/Hr and H/G shippers saw this from OOTP as a negative -
"Even through his anger and impatience, Harry recognised Hermione's offer to accompany him into Umbridge's office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty."
The argument being that why should he have to think about her solidarity and loyalty.
Personally I think reading this, while KNOWING about Hermione's questioning attitude, her deep misgivings about the Sirius dream and her previous opposition to going into Umbridge's office makes this moment all the more powerful. Plus having Harry recognise it while in a haze of anger.
But I was looking at a scene in POA (the Scabbers fight) and thought that Harry has at least never had to think this about his relationship with Hermione:
"It looked like the end of Ron and Hermione's friendship. Each was so angry with the other that Harry couldn't see how they'd ever make it up."
Then consider how angry Harry got with Hermione over Sirius in OOTP and how intense their debate was, and Harry is left with a feeling of affirmation of Hermione's solidarity and loyalty to him.
I think it's an illustration of how deep the foundations of friendship are between Harry and Hermione: a hurricane wouldn't bring it crashing down.
Another small point: just before that scene in POA Hermione tells Harry how much she loves Arithmancy. The subject is never discussed, as far as I can recall, between them until OOTP, yet Harry remembers/knows how much it means to her enough to select a book she particularly wanted for Christmas in OOTP.
Considering the strength of the interruption by Ron after Harry and Hermione discussed Arithmancy, it's a wonder their talk made any impression at all.

Nice post Sarmi, not to mention Pigwidgeon otherwise known as "Pig" is flying around and around the heads of Harry and Hermione as she nearly tackles him to the floor in a hug.

Nice post Sarmi, not to mention Pigwidgeon otherwise known as "Pig" is flying around and around the heads of Harry and Hermione as she nearly tackles him to the floor in a hug.

Thanks! :)

And don't forget the pink flying pigs that are created by Gred & Forge's fireworks. :agree:

Sarmi

Lots of interesting stuffs here. If I can't get my copy of OotP back from my friend by tomorrow I'm gonna go buy another copy and reread it this week. You've all given me lots more to think about. But, I still say it's Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione.

Prongs Sr

There seems to be a general misconception to the point I was trying to make, so I'll try to make it clear that, when referring to children not understanding "hidden" meanings, I was speaking of romance only. I am not underestimating childrens' abilities to understand some of the hidden clues, either on first read and later on. My son is fascinated with the Latin language and its use in HP and always notices little details on his second read. Romance, however, is all about feelings, not "hidden clues". I personally believe (for children and adults) that a romance has to be successfully "out there" in text, i.e. "next time there's a ball, ask me first and not as a last resort!".

First lets address yet another double standard. You have said that ask me first was a direct indicator yet when it comes to H/G a child will see through the "red herrings" (as called by H/G shippers) of Ginny saying that she no longer fancies Harry, that she is dating Michael, and that she has chosen Dean. Seems to me that a 8-9 year old would see that as Ginny is over Harry and has moved on with her life. So if you apply your theory honestly then H/G is simply over.

Now you claimed 'authorial intent" enough. In the Jeremy Paxman interview JKR stated that she had laid both clues and red herrings with regards to shipping. So JKR has wanted to keep us guessing as to who will end up with whom. So if you apply 'authorial intent' honestly to all ships then your obvious theory is debunked. And one will notice that JKR said red herrings and clues in direct answer to a question about relationships.

Your need to seperate romance from the rest of the stories also shows that the obvious theory is the weakest theory (remember that you called the Hippogriff the weakest theory) put forth by the H/G ship. There are different layers to appeal to a broad group of people with everything but romance. Once again ref JKR's quote about clues and red herrings.

Now we are supposed to believe that 8-9 year olds will understand the whole opposites attracted angle but not that best friends could fall in love. Doubtful. JKR has written the stories as the Trio is getting older so the themes have matured with them as well. To base a theory on a age group is to add another qualifier to the theory and therefore to make it weaker still.

This question originally came up by a poster (can't remember who) who stated that these books are not written with children in mind, and I'm simply pointing out that they are written with the age group 9 and up, as JKR said so in an interview and that I feel romance cannot be hidden with "secret clues", it needs to be out in the open. R/Hr is such a romance and my daughter even picked up on H/G on her read-thru. She thought Ginny would make the perfect wife for Harry because they have a lot in common and they both like chocolate! hee hee (kids are so cute).

Yes that is cute. But who says that Hermione doesn't like chocolate? And as cute as it is you'll forgive me for not totally ruling out that they had some influence from their mother ;) Call enough attention to certain parts and kids will pick up on what you stress in your reading or discussion with them.

Can you give us that direct quote about 9 and up. And exactly where do you establish a ceiling? Isn't 9 and up basically 9 to death. She never said that it was written with only 9-10 year olds in mind. Did she?

Cheers!

Nice post Sarmi, not to mention Pigwidgeon otherwise known as "Pig" is flying around and around the heads of Harry and Hermione as she nearly tackles him to the floor in a hug.

And Harry notices, upon arriving at Hogwarts at start of term, the winded boars that adorn the entrance gate of Hogwarts (though, I never recalled reading about them before). And, Harry notices the 'pink winged piglets' spawned by one of the twins' creation during the Firework extravaganza. There were quite a number of references of 'pigs on the wing' in OotP

Erica,

Hawk92:

I can't find the interview where she states that they are written for ages 9 and up, but I did find these two, where she mentions and implies that they are for children:

JK: I really, really, really love meeting the kids, because that's like teaching without the pain, you see. I used to be a teacher and I enjoyed teaching. Meeting loads of kids in the context in which I meet them now, it's fun. I don't have to discipline. They want to riot, I can join in if I want to. It's fun. I never expected to be in the papers. I personally never expected to be in the papers. The height of my ambition for these books was, well frankly, to get reviewed. A lot of children's books don'' even get reviewed - forget good review, bad review. Personally, no, I never expected to be in the papers so it's an odd experience when it happens to you.

JK: This was something I was always going to do. You know, I was always going to try and get a book published. This wasn't the first book I'd written. I mean, Philosopher's Stone wasn't the first book I'd written, though I never tried to get either of the other two published. They were novels for adults.

Posted by Hawk92:
Can you give us that direct quote about 9 and up. And exactly where do you establish a ceiling? Isn't 9 and up basically 9 to death. She never said that it was written with only 9-10 year olds in mind. Did she?

I think by the above quotes, it seems clear that she is writing these books with children as one of her audiences and I think the marketing certainly establishes that fact pretty clearly. If JKR calls them "childrens' literature", I'm going to take her word on that. There are also interviews where she mentions that she writes to adults, as well as children, but I can't find those either.

First lets address yet another double standard. You have said that ask me first was a direct indicator yet when it comes to H/G a child will see through the "red herrings" (as called by H/G shippers) of Ginny saying that she no longer fancies Harry, that she is dating Michael, and that she has chosen Dean. Seems to me that a 8-9 year old would see that as Ginny is over Harry and has moved on with her life. So if you apply your theory honestly then H/G is simply over.

Now you claimed 'authorial intent" enough. In the Jeremy Paxman interview JKR stated that she had laid both clues and red herrings with regards to shipping. So JKR has wanted to keep us guessing as to who will end up with whom. So if you apply 'authorial intent' honestly to all ships then your obvious theory is debunked. And one will notice that JKR said red herrings and clues in direct answer

I can't remember specifics of this particular interview and will have to pull it up, but if Ginny is supposed to be over Harry, why is H/G considered a red herring?

Also, you seem keen to like JKRs interviews. Why do you not accept all of her interviews at "face value", i.e. "Harry and Hermione are very platonic friends," and "Ron and Hermione, that's where the tension is" and "Ginny is languishing in love for Harry."

Your need to seperate romance from the rest of the stories also shows that the obvious theory is the weakest theory (remember that you called the Hippogriff the weakest theory) put forth by the H/G ship. There are different layers to appeal to a broad group of people with everything but romance. Once again ref JKR's quote about clues and red herrings.

Hawk, do you really think that the average young reader is going to get the hippogryph as symbolization for H/Hr love, unless told my someone what it is supposed to mean? I do think it is highly unlikely that JKR is using this as symbolism for their love, as according to JKR, she is writing childrens' literature.

I've found the Paxman interview:


JEREMY PAXMAN: But do you find the whole secrecy issue, the need for secrecy, a bit ridiculous?

JK ROWLING: No.

JEREMY PAXMAN: Why not?

JK ROWLING: No not at all. Well, a lot of it comes from me.

JEREMY PAXMAN: Really?

JK ROWLING: Yeah definitely. I mean, of course one could be cynical, and I'm sure you would be disposed to be so and say it was a marketing ploy, but I don't want the kids to know what's coming. Because that's part of the excitement of the story, and having - you know - sweated blood to create all my red herrings and lay all my clues.... to me it's not a ...this is my ....this is my....I was going to say this is my life, it's not my life, but it is a very important part of my life.

How do we know she is specifically talking about romance, here? and she mentions "kids" again. It sounds like children are her "target audience".

My problem with the Harry and Ginny relationship is that there is none. I can type a post two miles long about how much Ginny likes Harry and why she still likes him. But I can not type a post one milimeter about how Harry has any feelings for Ginny. Just my personal view, but when I was 15, if a short shapely figured 14 year old redhead who had Ginny's spunk was in my presence and liked me as much as Ginny liked Harry I would notice. Well actually I did notice :) .......*clearing throat* but that's another story. Anyway, my point being Harry has never shown anything for Ginny. I mean give me something. A kiss, a hug, maybe Ginny in a dream, Ginny in his head, someone getting jealous of Ginny because she has something with Harry...anything. I have heard about "well Harry wasn't jealous of Viktor Krum." Well what about Michael Corner? All we get is Ron running around ****** off his rocker in both cases. Harry is like "ok". I mean anything, even a slight jealous reaction would do.

Ron and Hermione, I can at least see the possibility, understand what makes that ship tick. I can make very solid points for that ship. But Harry and Ginny, well Harry needs to be involved first. We got enough Ginny to last beyond the limit, but I do not have enough Harry to make a drop. While Harry and Ginny shippers have made long well thought out posts, none of them are nearly as solid as their posts about Ron and Hermione. They just do not have enough Harry to work with though they have more than enough of Ginny.

Didn't Ginny gave up on Harry? I think an 8 or 9 year old can pick up the difference. That all IMO.

Why are we discoussing if these are kids book? They are market for kids, JKR has always have concern for the kids. What is the point in the whole discoussion? Just to know.

Gily Ann

My problem with the Harry and Ginny relationship is that there is none. I can type a post two miles long about how much Ginny likes Harry and why she still likes him. But I can not type a post one milimeter about how Harry has any feelings for Ginny.
...
Anyway, my point being Harry has never shown anything for Ginny. I mean give me something. A kiss, a hug, maybe Ginny in a dream, Ginny in his head, someone getting jealous of Ginny because she has something with Harry...anything.

Ron and Hermione, I can at least see the possibility, understand what makes that ship tick. I can make very solid points for that ship. But Harry and Ginny, well Harry needs to be involved first. We got enough Ginny to last beyond the limit, but I do not have enough Harry to make a drop. While Harry and Ginny shippers have made long well thought out posts, none of them are nearly as solid as their posts about Ron and Hermione. They just do not have enough Harry to work with though they have more than enough of Ginny.

(From a JKR interview):
... and having - you know - sweated blood to create all my red herrings and lay all my clues....
You have a very interesting point but given JKR's record of clues and herrings, I'd say that this is one herring that has many people believing that Harry/Ginny won't happen. The clues are quite obvious for Ron/Hermione, but there isn't much at all showing Harry has any interest in Ginny, despite Ginny's interest in Harry. I honestly believe that in the next book Harry will definately take notice of Ginny in much the same way that Ron took notice of Hermione. (See one of my favorite quotes from GoF in my signature)

Sone that is a fine bit of reasoning. I like the fact that you are seeking something concrete. The one thing about shipping at this stage in the books is the lack of proof. I know that specualtion is more than half the fun, lol, but i like the fact that you are looking for the hard reasoning. I tend to refer the H/G and R/H idea but I admit thats pure emotion. Congrats on some sound logic.

Prongs Sr

I think by the above quotes, it seems clear that she is writing these books with children as one of her audiences and I think the marketing certainly establishes that fact pretty clearly. If JKR calls them "childrens' literature", I'm going to take her word on that. There are also interviews where she mentions that she writes to adults, as well as children, but I can't find those either.

Once again no solid proof. Just circumstancial. Anyway as I stated as the Trio and the students in Harry's year have gotten older they are dealing with situations and problems that happen to older kids so the themes have matured with them. And I shall go back to my many levels which I shall be more than happy to apply to all ships equally.

I can't remember specifics of this particular interview and will have to pull it up, but if Ginny is supposed to be over Harry, why is H/G considered a red herring?

I never said that H/G is a red herring. Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I have posted several times that there is textual evidence of Ginny no longer liking Harry romantically. The used to fancy, dating Michael, choosing Dean and I was told by H/G shippers that these are red herrings. I don't think that H/G is a red herring because I think that Ginny is no longer in love with Harry.

Also, you seem keen to like JKRs interviews. Why do you not accept all of her interviews at "face value", i.e. "Harry and Hermione are very platonic friends," and "Ron and Hermione, that's where the tension is" and "Ginny is languishing in love for Harry."

:rotfl: I guess you haven't been around as long as I thought. I don't believe the quotes at all when it comes to the future of the books. But things that JKR answers about her style of writing I think are relatively safe to take as solid evidence. You won't find me trying to establish a theory on quotes and I'll only use quotes to offer rebuttal to a theory if that theory is based on quotes.

But if you look at your languishing in love for Harry quote and then look at the quotes that state that everyone is in love with the wrong person in Gof and that everyone is after the wrong person in Gof you're really not helping the H/G ship. Ginny in love with Harry, Ginny in love with the wrong person.

But for the most part I find the quotes to be unreliable and try not to use them. Also in regards to your platonic quote JKR contradicted herself when she gave a quote that Harry would like a girl but not Hermione or Ginny but he is only 14 so there was still time for him to change his mind (paraphrased here). Now I won't automatically throw Ginny out ( I have no doubt H/G shippers will throw the possibility of Hermione out in a heartbeat) but this to me establishes that the platonic quote meant Gof and Gof only.

I view H/G skeptically based on the text in OotP and the text only.

Hawk, do you really think that the average young reader is going to get the hippogryph as symbolization for H/Hr love, unless told my someone what it is supposed to mean? I do think it is highly unlikely that JKR is using this as symbolism for their love, as according to JKR, she is writing childrens' literature.

I don't think that a person who claims to love teaching and kids would be unhappy if some kid walked up to her and said that they found out that the hippogriff is the symbol of love. I think that JKR would be very happy at that point. She often praises the intellect and insight of children and states that adults all too often underestimate both. I shall neither underestimate or overestimate the intelligence of children and I do believe that it is possible for a 9 or 10 year old to know that a hippogriff is the symbol of love. I also believe that a 9 or 10 year old could find out quite easy that it was.

But I think that I'm getting out of my league with this whole symbolism thing, perhaps another member of the Harmony could answer this better. I will simply apply the theory that there are levels to appeal to a broad audience in these books and I shall apply it to all aspects of this book.

How do we know she is specifically talking about romance, here? and she mentions "kids" again. It sounds like children are her "target audience".

:lol: Wrong quote on my part. I meant the one about the one thing that's at the heart of the whole relationship thing and that no one had guessed it yet. Still one has to consider that if no one had guessed it yet that it was not obvious. Which still shows the whole obvious theory to be quite weak and if applied to all ships rules out H/G as well.

BTW I'm no longer considered a kid where I come from but people older than me still call me kid.

Cheers!

And on that note, I bring close to another version of the almighty love thread

**ALL HAIL THE LOVE THREAD!**

Keep your eyes open for part six coming in the amount of time it takes me to type it up!