Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom part five

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lanifiel
September 4th, 2003, 7:09 am
Greetings and welcome again to the fifth installment of the love thread (Insert Applause),

I hope you all have fun in here, and have some good debate with each other. However, lets try and keep our tempers undercontrol...

For easy access, I've given the rules in a nice easy link for you

Sirius83
September 4th, 2003, 7:16 am
Well looks like I've got first post in here again! See? Late night surfing does have its benefits! :lol:

Well as most of you would know, I ship Harry/Hermione. I also think Ron/Luna and Neville/Ginny could either happen or just have the story end with us knowing they will get together eventually.

Now as a veteran of these threads I'd just like to request that everyone have some courtesy towards each other and what not...let's not have to be given another time out! The COS Forums Love Thread is different from many others at other forums because of its good atmosphere with intelligent discussions, so let's not lose it!

Polaris15
September 4th, 2003, 7:28 am
New thread---fantastic. I'm considered a newbie since I only have a dozen posts from the last thread, but I'm totally looking forward to debating (civily) with R/Hr and H/G shippers. I am an H/Hr supporter of course :D

Aurora
September 4th, 2003, 7:50 am
This isn't my return but I'd just like to send a quick encouragement and cheer to all you HMS Heron shippers! R/Hr Forever!

Mad Eye Mike
September 4th, 2003, 9:03 am
Good luck to everyone on board the HMS Harmony! :tu:

:clap: H/Hr forever! :clap:

marspeach
September 4th, 2003, 12:57 pm
I don't really post here, but good luck to HMS SIGNS! Neville and Ginny 4evah!( I just had to say that).

My main ship is N/G, but I also ship H/Hr and R/L. If neither of these ships happened, I wouldn't be opposed to H/G, H/L, or H/K. The only ship I'm pretty much against now is R/Hr, although this could change. Ron did get a little more tolerable in OotP.

ilovesirius
September 4th, 2003, 1:09 pm
Hi, I'm pretty new to this whole thing but I've had fun reading the debates previously and just want to add in my little bit. Personally, I ship R/Hr all the way! :love: but I can see the possibilities of a H/Hr relationship as well. Although it appears that Harry and Hermione understand each other better than Ron and Hermione, there would be definitely more fun in reading about Ron and Hermione's developing relationship.

I can't quite decide now between H/G or D/G (very unlikely in canon sadly...) but I think N/G also has possibilities :) Although the idea of N/L is cute, can you imagine the disaster if they two actually got together? Luna is dreamy, unaware of events going on and Neville is forgetful and easily embarrassed. It'd make for amusing reading at least.

Still, if Harry doesn't end up with Ginny or Hermione, I think Luna will likely be the next candidate as no other stand-out females around his age have been presented - Parvati, Lavender and Padma all take a sort of backseat and the other DA members have little other interaction with him. I think there was definitely a connection between the two of them and perhaps this will be explored further whether in a romantic or developing friendship romance.

Well, that was my input for now. I hope that was okay for everyone and I look forward to lots of further debating!

Mad-I Moody
September 4th, 2003, 2:26 pm
Hi everyone! :welcome: back!

I can't believe how many projects I completed on the love thread's little hiatus! :D

For new posters, I ship R/Hr -- I don't really ship anyone else, though I technically don't object to H/G or N/G, or even H/L, though I think the evidence for Luna and anyone is slim, since we've only just met her.

Anyway, I'm glad the thread is back, and brand-new to boot! :welcome: to ilovesirius and polaris, and welcome back to all of the veteran posters. Good luck and happy posting to everyone -- and an extra :tu: to my fellow shipmates aboard the Heron. Long may she sail.

MEM- as always, funny sig pic. :lol: Do you do those in Photoshop?

GryffindorGal
September 4th, 2003, 2:40 pm
OK lets see. The only ships that I firmly believe have a chance of sailing in the end are both the H/Hr and N/ ones. I'd love Ron/Luna (they are such true opposites that they complement each other very well.) BUT I'm stongly beginning to suspect that JKR is using Ron's one liners to hint at future events and Ron's death is a possililty (given the rate at which Ron's "predictions" come true . .Arthur Weasley should be the MoM any minute now :-)). And I really wouldn't be surprisd if Luna were killed as well.

tree guardian
September 4th, 2003, 3:15 pm
Hello Everyone! :welcome: It's nice to know we can post about the love plots of Potter again. :)

Hmm, well I am sure that I boarded the H/Hr ship sometime this past July. I think though there is canon to support a possible R/Hr pairing, I would certainly rather see H/Hr. And though there is canon a possible R/Hr pairing I think there is just as much and stronger canon for a H/Hr pairing.

And yes, I do think there is the possiblity that Harry won't choose a mate.

I like to give my opinions and support for both ships, though I don't consider myself an R/Hr shipper at all. I don't like the idea of H/G, full stop. No I don't think it would be an interesting read, I think it would be very dull. B/C IMO, Ginny seemed a definite obvious choice from at least COS and I wouldn't be surprised, at all. SHe has already been the damsel in distress, and still there wasn't any romantic nor deep friendship develpement. No, especially at this point in the series, I wouldn't find any developement of a romantic relationship between Harry and Ginny interesting at all, because no matter what, Ginny and Harry's in canon relationship will never surpass what he has with Hermione. It really is impossible, to build such a relationship with Ginny. If anything, it would be a development that hasn't much to do with much. I don't think such a relationship would spurn undying burning never-ending love, but we as readers would see the simple beginings of the mere possiblity of a serious future (post 7th book) relationship. Which would thus signify Harry's coming of age- entering into man-hood, and most likely the fact that he is going to live to develope such. I don't think such a relationship would signal much else.

Harry isn't going to "survive" or "thrive" off of any romantic relationship with Ginny. Yet, Harry needs and most importantly wants a good strong relationship with Hermione. In OotP Harry seemed to want to measure up to Hermione, and he seemed to have an unspoken fear of failing in her eyes. (I am not exactly sure how to say this) But there were multiple incidences where Harry couldn't meet eyes with Hermione, for (unspoken but implied) fear that she would see through him so to speak. Ex. After finding out Ron was prefect and not himself and during conversations about the O.W.L.S. and when they got their first papers back from Snape and he got a low score.

Now the beauty about Harry and Hermione's relationship, is that it is not really obvious what is going on. So although there is much canon to back any future romantic relationship, such a developement would come as not so much a total surprise but it would be a rising action if not a sub-plot climax. Some from a R/Hr ship once said that with Ginny, Harry would have to overcome the "obstacle" of Ginny getting over him or giving up on him, (ha-ha) but just think of the plot obstacle that would occur between Harry and Ron if H/Hr were to make a development. NOt that there would be a "falling out" over this issue, but there would be some kind of confrontation.

There is much potential for a deep and meaningful romantic development between H/Hr, because they already have a deep and meaningful friendship beyond a doubt all it takes is a little nudge in the right direction.

Okay.

Welcome back again, I look forward to future civil and extremely fun debates.

:clap: :D ;) ::tada::

Buckbeak
September 4th, 2003, 4:39 pm
Although iv always been a H/Hr shipper at heart, i'm not completely convinced that they'll be together in the end, but there obviously is just as much chance as R/Hr infact possibly even more because it hasn't been made so obivious which kind of makes me think JK will eventually go that way beause she never sticks to the obvious. Anyway glad the love thread is back up again, i was actually beginning to go slightly insane, with the lack of it, to be honest.

Buttercup
September 4th, 2003, 4:48 pm
Hello welcome back to everyone.

When did the ship 'Heron' get named and what is behind the name? I have been out of the love threads for a bit and that name is a new one to me. Any R/Hr shippers please enlighten me if you would like to.

To Sirius83 I can't believe you dropped Eloise/Ron from your shipping lists. How dare you!!!!!

I just have the horrible feeling that Harry isn't going to survive the series so I just don't know if he will have a serious girl friend.

But I do want to know what everyone thinks is going to happen in book 6 not the end of the series. Any more dates or breakups?

I am torn between Ron still playing it cool for his feelings for Hermione and him starting to push things a little. They didn't have much action romantically in book 5 so I wonder if in book 6 we will see some romance for either character. Not necessarily with each other but just something happening.

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers

Buttercup

Sirius83
September 4th, 2003, 6:01 pm
Sorry Buttercup! I still think Ron/Eloise would be a cute sort of "poetic justice" ship, but I like shipping canon and I can't see them happening in canon anymore with the introduction of Luna. It was very hard to find anyone other than Hermione to believably put Ron with, but then along came Luna!

As far as relationships in book 6, I don't think we'll be seeing any dates, any couplings or any breakups. What we will probably see in my opinion is Ron realising he can't have a relationship with Hermione and growing closer to Luna, and some more Harry -> Hermione stuff. OOTP had little things like having Hermione in his dreams, having part of his mind speak in her voice...I think we may see more of this in book 6. I also think we may see Harry taking notice of Hermione more and from Hermione's end, more scenes like the elf hats one.

Mad-I Moody
September 4th, 2003, 6:06 pm
Hi Buttercup.

The Heron gets its name from the combination of Hermione and Ron. It's been around for as long as I can remember, so I'm not really sure how it originated.

Any additions from more seasoned love thread vets might be more helpful. :D

Buttercup, your limerick in your sig is funny! :lol:

As far as book 6 relationships/dates goes, it's really hard to say. However, I think that, at the very least, Ron will own up to his feelings for Hermione and tell someone - preferably Hermione. Whether she returns the feelings or not, well -- as you know the love thread well, you also know that whether or not she returns the feelings is largely up to interpretation!

I personally think Harry is going to have so much going on that he won't have time for dating in Book 6, unless there is a circumstance (like the Yule Ball in GoF) that puts him in a position for a date. Cho is, IMO, history. And good riddance... :D

I wonder if Ginny and Dean Thomas will continue their relationship -- the end of Book 5 seems to at least suggest that we will see something of the two together.

Nia
September 4th, 2003, 6:11 pm
Hi, everyone and :welcome: Back!

It is so nice to see this thread back up again. Hopefully all the demons that caused things to get so uncivil have been purged. This is the only place I post my shipping comments because of the legitimate intelligent challenges made by other ships. I think that looking at literature from other vantage points and discussing differing views is ultimately an enriching experience for everyone. One needn't get envolved in discussions that are silly or pointless or riddled with anger. What is the point of that?

I, by the way, ship Harry/Hermione. I see a very definite foundation which has its roots in mythology, literature and esoteric sources. This kind of relationship is also common to Jane Austen's writing, one of JKR's favorite authors. Austen's primary romantic pairing is generally kept a mystery (with subtle clues tossed in along the way) until the end of the book.

The development of Harry and Hermione is subtle and deft too and, because it does not shout and make its presence strongly felt, as most romances in contemporary media shout, it is not as apparent as say, Ron and Hermione, who are literally shouting at each other. I believe that Harry and Hermione's relationship transcends banal "chemistry" and simple physical attraction to become spiritual. That is something we definitely do not see a lot of in today's literature. Both are deeply complicated individuals with very "old" souls. It is this spiritual element that is so attractive to me and I truly believe it is in keeping with the overriding theme of the septology.

I can also see groundwork for Ron and Hermione if, for some reason JKR is not thinking quite as lofty as I presume. There are obvious clues (open to various interpretations) to this relationship should JKR choose to write it, but I would be very, very disappointed if she should select such a hackneyed, predictable romantic path rather than taking 'the road less travelled.'

I see no basis for Harry and Ginny in canon at all. True, Ginny is now suddenly quite "all that," but for all her development, I find her very young, very much fourteen and very full of fourteen-year-old ideas. She and Harry are abominably mismatched in my opinion. In addition to this, I feel that they have never connected on anything but the most superficial of levels. Again, if JKR wants to write a trite fairy tale and pair off Harry and Ginny, that is her affair, but, my opinion is that it will seem contrived, no matter how much 'development' she gives Ginny in the next two books. Youthful characaters should grow into their place of empowerment. The development shoud be as gradual and organic in literature as it is in real life, no matter how long the book. We simply do not see enough real development on Ginny's part for her to be a suitable mate for a boy who literally has the fate of the world resting on his shoulders. Quite simply put, Harry is too deep and complicated an individual for a merry, youthful soul like Ginny.

As with everyone on this thread, my shipping views are firmly grounded in my views on love. I believe love is more than seeing someone is cute and capable, Those superficial attributes only appeal to to the eyes. Physical beauty cannot reach a soul--only another soul can do that. I believe Harry and Hermione are soul mates--that their respective oddities make them see things from a similar perspective. As for the romance between these two, I feel it is only a matter of realization, mostly on Harry 's part, before they become a couple.

Sirius83
September 4th, 2003, 6:14 pm
Yep. If Ron owns up and makes a move rather than just give up on his own, we have a problem. It is my interpretation that Hermione will turn him down. Now that means that Ron will be feeling put out and embarrassed. This would cause problems within the trio. Now, playing devil's advocate here for a second, if Hermione does return Ron's feelings for whatever reason, we have a problem with Harry. We saw what Harry thinks of being left out at the start of OOTP, and if Ron and Hermione hook up, we'll probably see that come out of Harry again.

Either way, if R/Hr happens before Harry finds someone new, we have a problem. If H/Hr happens before Ron gets over his feelings, we have a problem. We'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

Daveydee
September 4th, 2003, 6:22 pm
So here we are again. Before we start, I have to say that I think it was pretty foolhardy those of you who openly criticised lanifiel at the end of the last thread. Apart from the obvious fact that he is a respected moderator, he was in fact making a perfectly valid point.

We discuss canon at great length here; the vast majority of posts are solely canon-based. But we are here to answer a question – Who will fall in love with whom? It calls for speculation. Speculation involves making theories and predictions. If, in order to speculate on Who will fall in love with whom?, members wish to base their post on, or examine matters such as:

- The influence of the movies
- Symbolic and historical references
- JK’s interviews
- The fundamental nature of love and romance
- Human nature
- Instinct and intuition

Then so be it. Other members who do not wish to involve themselves in debates concerning one or more of the above have the option not to take part. What is not reasonable is to post comments which express objections to debates concerning those matters. It is posts such as those which are completely meaningless, and at best can only be considered as post-count boosting. No one member is any more important than any other here, whether they have 1 post or 1000 posts to their name. No one member is entitled to control the direction of discussion. Personally, I should have thought that the exploration of such diverse avenues would make for a varied and interesting debate.

Having said all that here’s a prediction which is based on canon, though my conclusion draws to some extent on gut instinct:

Luna, Ron and Hermione

The fundamental question posed by H/Hr shippers in terms of the prospect of a R/Hr romance has always been ‘Why hasn’t Hermione shown any feelings towards Ron?’ And if the truth be told, it’s always been a great source of frustration to R/Hr shippers that her feelings towards Ron have always been just subtle enough to create a slight(very slight) element of doubt. What are the mechanisms that will allow Ron and Hermione to fully explore their feelings for one another?

Well, we’ve seen Ron’s mechanism in Viktor Krum and the whole Yule Ball fiasco. His jealousy is palpable and continues through OotP, though expressed in a more measured manner. Incidentally, I should just say, as an aside, whilst on the subject of the Yule Ball, the line ”Next time there’s a ball, ask me…..” has to be the clearest bit of foreshadowing ever. I digress. Where is the mechanism that will allow Hermione to fully explore her feelings for Ron?

Overlooking the Fleur factor, which does admittedly contain a 2% element of doubt, given Hermione’s initial dislike of the girl, it’s perfectly obvious to my mind. The mechanism is Luna; which although having been briefly alluded to in previous posts, has not yet been fully examined. It must be. It will I feel be the most important single means which will allow JK to give us an insight into how Hermione truly feels about Ron.

I have to say at this stage that I have revised my original view of a possible Luna-Ron attachment, which was at best sceptical, at worst dismissive. But, I see now that not only is it possible, but it is inevitable. For one reason. It will knock Hermione for six. As an essential part of her character development, Hermione is long overdue for a significant setback. This, I feel will be it. Quite how far JK will take a Luna-Ron relationship, I am not sure. It is, in itself of no relevance. It will serve one purpose, and one purpose alone – to put Hermione through the same sort of emotions Ron experienced over her and Krum 2 years previously, and to allow those feelings that have been so subtly concealed/expressed to come to the fore.

This is of course speculation. But it is solid and prudent and based on how the interaction between Hermione and Luna has been depicted in OotP. Luna is a very important character. In terms of the overall plot, in addition to this particular sub-plot, she is probably the most important new character since the first book. She will, I am convinced, play a pivotal role in Harry’s task. But on the specifics of the romantic question, the disdain expressed by Hermione towards Luna speaks volumes, not least because Hermione is generally seen as a fighter for the underdog. You have to ask why this should be so. This uncharacteristic display of disdain, I am convinced, will play out fully in Book 6 as she sees Ron slipping through her fingers.

In many ways the scenario is comparable to the Fleur episode. In both cases Hermione does not initially take well to either Fleur or Luna. But that 2% element of doubt over Hermione’s jealousy toward Fleur will not be there with Luna if, as I suspect, Luna shares an attachment with Ron. There will be no room for doubt. Hermione’s feelings will then be made perfectly clear.

EDIT:
The Heron gets its name from the combination of Hermione and Ron. It's been around for as long as I can remember, so I'm not really sure how it originated.

Any additions from more seasoned love thread vets might be more helpful.
I'll take the blame for that. Sorry! :frown: In the dim and distant past about 7 or 8 threads ago, pre OotP.

Bexfizz
September 4th, 2003, 6:43 pm
Daveydee, not to bash your theory because i'm on your side concerning Ron and Hermione, but is what your saying that Ron will go out with Luna, just to have Hermione jealous and admit her feelings for him. somehow that doesn't sound right to me, i can't really see JK writing it that way, considering that it sounds to me to take up a lot of plot time and as it doesn't concern Harry there just doesn't seem to be any point to it. As book 6 and 7 are nearing the end of the series, JK really can't afford to waste her time on stuff like that, i see Ron and Hermione just going out and thats the end of it, nothing to much will come out of their relationship, which as far as i'm concerned is a good thing because too much emphises on that would do my head in, but thats just what i think about it, of course your theory is good afterall. Oh and if iv misunderstood you then i appoligise.

Daveydee
September 4th, 2003, 6:57 pm
Daveydee, not to bash your theory because i'm on your side concerning Ron and Hermione, but is what your saying that Ron will go out with Luna, just to have Hermione jealous and admit her feelings for him.
Whether Luna and Ron will go out together, I'm not sure. The point I'm trying to examine is the Luna---->Ron interaction. But yes, basically, that is what I'm predicting.
somehow that doesn't sound right to me, i can't really see JK writing it that way, considering that it sounds to me to take up a lot of plot time and as it doesn't concern Harry there just doesn't seem to be any point to it.
There needs to be some plot device which advances the R/Hr relationship, which for the past two books has been the two of them taking one step forward & two steps back, put simplistically. Please, all, do not think my R/Hr conviction is any less wholehearted in light of this statement.
As book 6 and 7 are nearing the end of the series, JK really can't afford to waste her time on stuff like that, i see Ron and Hermione just going out and thats the end of it, nothing to much will come out of their relationship, which as far as i'm concerned is a good thing because too much emphises on that would do my head in, but thats just what i think about it, of course your theory is good afterall. Oh and if iv misunderstood you then i appoligise.
I can see it being handled in very much the same manner as the Krum plotline, which didn't detract from the main plot of GoF. And of course all the groundwork for R/Hr has already been done. Expect there to be another ball."Next time there's a ball..."

wahsup86
September 4th, 2003, 7:03 pm
This is in response to how many say JKR is making R/Hr seem obvious so she can blind-side us with a suprise in H/Hr, becasue her books are infamous for completely suprising twists. I just want to say I disagree because a relationship isn't just something she could switch on or off as a suprise in two books.

I feel that JKR understands that in the world of Harry Potter just as in the real world a foundation for a relationship must exist, so she has been laying the ground work for R/Hr since GoF. And yes one can argue there is a romantic relationship foundation being laid for H/Hr, but it is not as blatant as R/Hr. She is writing the R/Hr relationship as almost a struggle (presented in thier countless fights) so for readers when they finally do hook-up we all go "About Freaking Time" (or at least those of us who wanted a R/Hr relationship). The H/Hr relationship does not share the same kind of foundation, if Harry liked Hermione, we would know. Argue all you want about the evidence showing Harry likes Hermione, the point is, we see the story through Harry, hear his thoughts, feel his feelings. If he liked Hermione we would be told very plainly as we were with Cho.

Now I CAN understand why some would say Hermione likes Harry, but the whole "Ask me first next time and not as a last resort" fight with Ron is just too big a hint for me to ignore. A relationship of any kind could not be developed and put into motion in two books. The foundation is laid for R/Hr, this part of the book is not being written to catch us off guard like everything else. This is just my opinion, as I am sure many will disagree.

argog24
September 4th, 2003, 7:09 pm
I think Luna could be good for Ron. If he has to be the thoughtfull,realistic,mature person in a relationship (something he hasn't quite had to do before.) it might just be what he needs to really finish growing up. Sorry to all you N/L shippers but I think she would just scare him,despite resent impressive character development. I can see Ginny being good for his self- confidence though.

Mad-I Moody
September 4th, 2003, 7:14 pm
Nia
This kind of relationship is also common to Jane Austen's writing, one of JKR's favorite authors. Austen's primary romantic pairing is generally kept a mystery (with subtle clues tossed in along the way) until the end of the book
I would have to argue that the R/Hr relationship is very similar to the ones we see in Austen's writing. For instance:

In Emma, Mr. Knightly and Emma bicker about some things – like when Mr. Knightly disapproves of Emma's matchmaking when Harriet refuses the proposal of Robert Martin. ("You are no friend to Harriet" or something like that).

Mr. Knightly and Emma are also jealous of each other's suitors/prospects. When Emma thinks that Mr. Knightly is doting on Jane, she is jealous. When Mr. Knightly notices Emma and Frank spending time together, he is jealous. Note, Mr. Knightly generally disapproves of Frank, so his jealousy needn't indicate right away that he has feelings for Emma. (Ron and Krum? Hermione and Fleur?)

Mr. Knightly's romantic feelings toward Emma aren't very obvious at first, though they become more apparent in the chapter where he tries to kiss her hand. It seems that he wants to tell Emma that he loves her, but he always hesitates, as if unsure of himself. (Very Ron-ish, IMO).

In Emma, much of the romance is spurred on by Emma and Mr. Knightly's respective jealousy. Emma never realizes her feelings for Mr. Knightly until she becomes jealous of Harriet, or, at least, until she realizes that Harriet confesses feelings for Mr. Knightly. Mr. Knightly also realizes his feelings for Emma due to her involvement with Frank.

In Pride and Prejudice, Elizabeth is at odds with Mr. Darcy through almost the entire book, though he has feelings for her. Elizabeth's feelings change, or are realized in light of Darcy's true actions, and they are married.

I would be very, very disappointed if she should select such a hackneyed, predictable romantic path rather than taking 'the road less travelled.'

It is arguable which is the "road less traveled," H/Hr or R/Hr. H/Hr is, of course, the hero-gets-the-girl scenario. R/Hr is the Han Solo and Princess Leia scenario. Both roads are pretty well traveled – in fact, they are paved and have signs and everything – so either choice will be viewed by some people as "hackneyed," IMHO. If she chooses R/Hr, people will say "It was so predictable – everyone knows that the bickering couple gets together. Haven't you seen When Harry met Sally?" If she is going the way of H/Hr, people will say "It was so predictable -- the hero always gets the girl." Or, as you put it earlier, people may think that it is an overused plot technique to keep the primary romantic pairing a big mystery until the very end.

Quite simply put, Harry is too deep and complicated an individual for a merry, youthful soul like Ginny.

I do agree that Harry is much "deeper" than Ginny as far as we can tell. Harry is probably the deepest (young) character in the series. However, Ginny is not, to me, shallow. She is brave, caring, loyal, and helpful. Though she may not be what you call an "old soul," I don't think this means that she cannot have a relationship with one. As I've said before, I'm not a huge proponent of the H/G ship, but I certainly don't think of Ginny as someone unworthy of Harry, nor even as someone who is incompatible with him.

Daveydee
I have to say at this stage that I have revised my original view of a possible Luna-Ron attachment, which was at best sceptical, at worst dismissive. But, I see now that not only is it possible, but it is inevitable. For one reason. It will knock Hermione for six. As an essential part of her character development, Hermione is long overdue for a significant setback. This, I feel will be it. Quite how far JK will take a Luna-Ron relationship, I am not sure. It is, in itself of no relevance. It will serve one purpose, and one purpose alone – to put Hermione through the same sort of emotions Ron experienced over her and Krum 2 years previously, and to allow those feelings that have been so subtly concealed/expressed to come to the fore.

This is of course speculation. But it is solid and prudent and based on how the interaction between Hermione and Luna has been depicted in OotP. Luna is a very important character. In terms of the overall plot, in addition to this particular sub-plot, she is probably the most important new character since the first book. She will, I am convinced, play a pivotal role in Harry’s task. But on the specifics of the romantic question, the disdain expressed by Hermione towards Luna speaks volumes, not least because Hermione is generally seen as a fighter for the underdog. You have to ask why this should be so. This uncharacteristic display of disdain, I am convinced, will play out fully in Book 6 as she sees Ron slipping through her fingers.


I think this is a valid prediction, especially in light of how Jane Austen gives life to her romances (see above on Emma and Pride and Prejudice). I don't know if JKR will mimic that or not, but I do think that you have a point – Hermione shows disdain (at best) for Luna and for Fleur – Luna seems to maybe like "Ronald" and Ron obviously drooled over Fleur. Hermione shows no disdain for Cho, even though there is room for it with the way she acts. Understandably, Cedric died and Cho was mourning, but she just jumped into Harry's arms and expected him to make her feel better and to give her some closure…but I digress. Instead, Hermione patiently explains Cho's feelings and why she acts the way she does. Her disdain or dislike for other female characters are limited to Slytherins (Millicent, Pansy – that complete cow) and to the girl Ron is interested in and a girl who is possibly interested in Ron. Whether this is an indication of Hermione's underlying feelings or simply a coincidence, I don't claim to know. I do suspect, however, that it is the former.

Anyway…my two knuts. :D

Daveydee
September 4th, 2003, 7:23 pm
Quite so Mad-I, and unlike in the case of Fleur, where Hermione's disdain might conceivably be explained away (though not neccessarily IMO) by Fleur's remarks about Hogwarts, there is no currently explicable reason at to why Hermione should be so overtly anti-Luna, save to set up a subsequent conflict over Ron.

BlackKnight86
September 4th, 2003, 7:24 pm
First of all, welcome back everyone! I came back from a trip out of town; and not only had thread #4 doubled in size, but we (adults!) had been given a time out for bad behavior! Pretty funny, huh - and interesting, too....especially for a topic that some people claim is a minor subplot.

Anyway, on to the discussion. I need clarification about something that I'd like to ask our worthy R/Hr adversaries - especially Daveydee, since you feel so strongly about it. I was looking over the "Yule Brawl", as it is called, trying to read it from a R/Hr perspective (since GOF is supposed to hold the answer to the question "Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?"), and since many R/Hr shippers consider that scene as a "moment of truth" in their relationship. A little set up, first (I'm sorry, I don't have my books with me; if I'm way off, please say so):

The phrase that Hermione says ("Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!") is often considered by R/Hr shippers as a clear, obvious request by Hermione for Ron to ask her out. The only thing is, that phrase is a direct answer to the question that she posed to Ron immediately prior to that ("Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is?"); and, as such, cannot be separated from that question without altering the context. Therefore, the connotation of the phrase must depend upon the unheard "problem" to which Hermione stated the "solution". The nature of that problem can only be guessed, since we walked in with Harry in the middle of the....um..."tension". Anyway, it's fair to say that Hermione was, in fact, speaking straightforward English; so, let's take a look at her two friends' reactions:

Ron was rendered speechless; and, once Hermione had left, sputtered two diametrically opposed conclusions (well, started one and finished with the other): "That just proves....completely misses the point".

Harry, on the other hand, had the feeling that Hermione understood the point better than Ron. Now, did he have that feeling based on the fact that he (Harry) actually understood the point, or did he have that feeling based on Ron's not-very-eloquent comeback? In other words, does Harry himself understand the point? That's one item on which I'm a bit fuzzy.

Now, I can see where R/Hr shippers see the potential of unstated feelings, manifested in jealousy, on Ron's part for Hermione. I can even see, if the scene is taken at face value (without considering that we missed a significant portion of it), where R/Hr shippers may see some feeling for Hermione toward Ron. Where I'm having trouble is with the follow-up. Remember what Harry was thinking before the very last line: he was enjoying his newly repaired relationship with Ron too much to speak his mind. That tells me a couple of things:

1. "to speak his mind" - Harry seems to have had an opinion on the Yule Brawl, not just a confused "What were you two fighting about?". In other words, did he guess what the "problem" was?

2. "enjoying his newly repaired relationship with Ron" - Apparently, Harry was concerned that saying what was on his mind would negatively affect, in some way, that relationship. Otherwise, why would it cause him to hold his tongue?

Now, just for the sake of the discussion, I'm going to assume that R/Hr shippers are correct in their assumption that this was a huge R/Hr shipping moment. Please explain to me, first of all, why it is never heard from again? It doesn't make sense that it would stay hidden if Harry (through whose POV the story is told) witnessed the fight and guessed what it was about. Even if Ron and Hermione are "denying it", why would Harry? Remember, in OotP, Hermione asked Harry "What about you and Cho?". That's kind of an invitation for a "And what about you and Ron?". If they're such good friends, why is that such a stretch? And even if Harry did not guess the reason for the brawl, why would he not ask either one, "what was all that about?". Even though Ron and Hermione apparently had "an unspoken agreement not to discuss their argument", they were "formal" with each other. Surely it aroused Harry's curiousity? Even if JKR wanted to keep it low-level until later books, she still has to explain why it completely dropped off Harry's radar for 1 1/2 years. That doesn't make sense.

There is, of course, that second point that I made, that Harry is concerned about affecting his relationship with Ron. If, as R/Hr shippers maintain, Harry has no interest in Hermione, and Ron's interest is so "clear" and "obvious"; how would telling Ron, "hey, I think Hermione likes you", affect Harry's and Ron's relationship negatively? Or, if Harry wanted to stay neutral, perhaps he could phrase it in a question "hey, Ron, do you like Hermione?". Or, even if he did not say anything to either one, why do we not see him pondering things, even if for a moment?

What do you all think?

I hope you're all having a great day!

BlackKnight86

argog24
September 4th, 2003, 7:25 pm
Hermione is a very feet on the ground, realistic and practical character, which in my humble opinion could explain the mild annoyance with someone with their head so often stuck in the clouds like Luna. She might have a growing respect for her though after the OotP.

Bexfizz
September 4th, 2003, 7:37 pm
Quite so Mad-I, and unlike in the case of Fleur, where Hermione's disdain might conceivably be explained away (though not neccessarily IMO) by Fleur's remarks about Hogwarts, there is no currently explicable reason at to why Hermione should be so overtly anti-Luna, save to set up a subsequent conflict over Ron.
Thats not quite right Daveydee, i think theres a perfectly logical reason why Hermione doesn't like Luna and it has nothing to do with Ron, she doesn't like Luna because their personalties clash, hermione likes to believe in things that have proof to it, whilst Luna is just willing to believe in something just for the sake of believing in something, the two girls are complete oposites and i can understand why Hermione doesn't like her, she mentions about the Quibbler and other reasons, but i don't see it having anything to do with Ron.
Sometimes people just don't connect and Luna and Hermione don't.
I'm sure your a nice person but i bet theres someone in your life who you have met and just not gotten on with because you have different morals etc, i know i have, its just apart of human life and its another factor that makes life interesting.

Ok sorry to go on at your post again, i have read some of your previous posts and they are very good, just for the record, just in case you thought i was attacking you in person, because i'm not:)

argog24
September 4th, 2003, 7:44 pm
I agree.

MagicianGirl
September 4th, 2003, 7:45 pm
Wow! We're in part five already. Anyways looks like I'm gonna be the first H/G
shipper aboard here.Although I don't mind R/Hr

Daveydee
September 4th, 2003, 7:46 pm
Anyway, on to the discussion. I need clarification about something that I'd like to ask our worthy R/Hr adversaries - especially Daveydee, since you feel so strongly about it.
With pleasure. BTW welcome to CoSForums and the love thread.

The phrase that Hermione says ("Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!") is often considered by R/Hr shippers as a clear, obvious request by Hermione for Ron to ask her out. The only thing is, that phrase is a direct answer to the question that she posed to Ron immediately prior to that ("Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is?"); and, as such, cannot be separated from that question without altering the context. Therefore, the connotation of the phrase must depend upon the unheard "problem" to which Hermione stated the "solution". The nature of that problem can only be guessed, since we walked in with Harry in the middle of the....um..."tension". Anyway, it's fair to say that Hermione was, in fact, speaking straightforward English; so, let's take a look at her two friends' reactions:
Of course, we can only second guess but it doesn't take a huge leap of the imagination to conclude that Ron's complaint was that Hermione attended the ball with Krum rather than himself. Each half of Hermione's statement qualifys the other, and each half stands perfectly well on its own.

Ron was rendered speechless; and, once Hermione had left, sputtered two diametrically opposed conclusions (well, started one and finished with the other): "That just proves....completely misses the point".

Harry, on the other hand, had the feeling that Hermione understood the point better than Ron. Now, did he have that feeling based on the fact that he (Harry) actually understood the point, or did he have that feeling based on Ron's not-very-eloquent comeback? In other words, does Harry himself understand the point? That's one item on which I'm a bit fuzzy.
I'm sure that Harry, as Ron's best buddy of many years, is perfectly aware of Ron's feelings towards Hermione.

Now, I can see where R/Hr shippers see the potential of unstated feelings, manifested in jealousy, on Ron's part for Hermione. I can even see, if the scene is taken at face value (without considering that we missed a significant portion of it), where R/Hr shippers may see some feeling for Hermione toward Ron. Where I'm having trouble is with the follow-up. Remember what Harry was thinking before the very last line: he was enjoying his newly repaired relationship with Ron too much to speak his mind. That tells me a couple of things:

1. "to speak his mind" - Harry seems to have had an opinion on the Yule Brawl, not just a confused "What were you two fighting about?". In other words, did he guess what the "problem" was?

2. "enjoying his newly repaired relationship with Ron" - Apparently, Harry was concerned that saying what was on his mind would negatively affect, in some way, that relationship. Otherwise, why would it cause him to hold his tongue?
1. Yes - Harry agreed with Hermione that Ron should have asked her first.
2. Harry just didn't fancy the prospect of getting into another trivial argument with Ron so soon after settling their previous differences. Why should he? It's between Hermione and Ron after all.

Now, just for the sake of the discussion, I'm going to assume that R/Hr shippers are correct in their assumption that this was a huge R/Hr shipping moment.
You assume correctly. :D
Please explain to me, first of all, why it is never heard from again? It doesn't make sense that it would stay hidden if Harry (through whose POV the story is told) witnessed the fight and guessed what it was about. Even if Ron and Hermione are "denying it", why would Harry? Remember, in OotP, Hermione asked Harry "What about you and Cho?". That's kind of an invitation for a "And what about you and Ron?". If they're such good friends, why is that such a stretch?
Valid point, well made. I guess all I can say to that is... watch this space. "Next time there's a ball..." :whistle:

And even if Harry did not guess the reason for the brawl, why would he not ask either one, "what was all that about?". Even though Ron and Hermione apparently had "an unspoken agreement not to discuss their argument", they were "formal" with each other. Surely it aroused Harry's curiousity? Even if JKR wanted to keep it low-level until later books, she still has to explain why it completely dropped off Harry's radar for 1 1/2 years. That doesn't make sense.

There is, of course, that second point that I made, that Harry is concerned about affecting his relationship with Ron. If, as R/Hr shippers maintain, Harry has no interest in Hermione, and Ron's interest is so "clear" and "obvious"; how would telling Ron, "hey, I think Hermione likes you", affect Harry's and Ron's relationship negatively? Or, if Harry wanted to stay neutral, perhaps he could phrase it in a question "hey, Ron, do you like Hermione?". Or, even if he did not say anything to either one, why do we not see him pondering things, even if for a moment?

What do you all think?
I think all this has been covered above.

I hope you're all having a great day!
Oh yeah...great. First day back at work after 2 1/2 weeks off. :no:

EDIT: Bexfizz and aragog - I understand what you are both saying about Hermione being mainstream and Luna being very much alternative. But as I say, Luna comes in for pretty much a hard time as soon as we see her at Hogwarts. It's highly uncharacteristic for Hermione to be anything other than a staunch fighter for the underdog (as per House Elves). If Hermione was truly of that disdainful persuasion, I feel sure that we would have seen a similar attitude towards Neville, for example, in earlier books.

Either way, it makes little difference. Whatever the reason for Hermione's negative attitude towards Luna, JK clearly wrote it that way for a reason. I believe that reason to be a subsequent conflict over Ron.

argog24
September 4th, 2003, 7:58 pm
Rowling could easily had 1 of 2 plans through out these books with the consept of romantic love.
(1)To show how even to people who care for one another very deaply need to learn to compramise and learn to pick their battles before they can co-exist properly. That love needs maturity to survive. i.e R/hr
Or
(2)In a Emma style fashion that love can be right under your nose all along disguised as a good friendship, and if you don't pay attention you could miss it. i.e h/hr

I personally like door #2. I think peoples ship prefrence can stem from their own opinions and feelings about love.

EricaM
September 4th, 2003, 8:36 pm
Valid point, well made. I guess all I can say to that is... watch this space. "Next time there's a ball..."

That line is old now, don't you think? It would have carried far more weight if it was followed up by something in OotP - but it wasn't. Or is Hermione following her master stroke of encouragement 'Next time there's a ball ...' with:

- belittling Ron for not being able to say VOLDEMORT
- a less than enthusiastic reception of his (romantic) Christmas gift
- her opting to go to bed (thankful that Harry gave her the opportunity to do so without being rude) instead of sharing one of Ron's most memorable moments (making the quidditch team - a deeply held desire, as I recall)
- asking Harry (not Ron) to help quiz her
- asking Harry (not Ron) to share in one of her pet projects
:whistle:

Cheers
Erica (on a side note, has anyone read 'The Little White Horse' - apparently JKR's favourite book as a child and one that she says may have influenced her HP story)

tree guardian
September 4th, 2003, 8:38 pm
Luna and Hermione remind me of Trelawny and McGonagal. I do think what Luna is seeing is valid but until there is validation that Hermione can see or believe with her feet on the ground, Hermione is not going to like Luna too much. But yes, she will have a growing respect for Luna, especially as Harry's respect for Luna grows. :)

So no, I don't think Hermione's dislike for Luna has much to do with Ron.

Though, I will play devils advocate, as much as I dislike doing that sometimes, and say one can argue that Hermione's surprising "kiss/cheek" moment with Ron in the Great Hall, may have been egged on by Luna's extravagant display for Gyrifindor support and her "Ronald" comment. May sound shaky but I think it would fit into a decent argument.

:) Cheers.

Daveydee
September 4th, 2003, 8:44 pm
That line is old now, don't you think? It would have carried far more weight if it was followed up by something in OotP - but it wasn't. Or is Hermione following her master stroke of encouragement 'Next time there's a ball ...' with:
Old it may be, but no less significant for that. After all there was a two book lapse between the first mention of Sirius Black and when we actually got to meet him; a two book lapse between Dumbledore's first mention of Trelawney's first prediction and when he finally divulged the details of it. To think of just two examples.

Hmmm..."Next time there's a ball..." = book 4. Two book lapse = book 6. Very significant.

EDIT: Can I just come back on the idea that seems to be emerging that Hermione's dislike over Luna is currently because of Ron. I did not suggest that in my original post, nor do I necessarily think that that is the case at present. I was merely presenting the case of the general personality clash between Luna and Hermione as being a future mechanism whereby JK could allow Hermione's true feelings for Ron come to the fore, if, as seems likely, Luna continues to express an interest in Ron.

tree guardian
September 4th, 2003, 8:53 pm
It's highly uncharacteristic for Hermione to be anything other than a staunch fighter for the underdog (as per House Elves). If Hermione was truly of that disdainful persuasion, I feel sure that we would have seen a similar attitude towards Neville, for example, in earlier books.

Why would Hermione consider Luna an underdog? She is a pureblood, her father is editor of a paper, and she has a good amount of self-confidence it does appear. Just becuase people think she is weird doesn't simply make Luna an underdog. We readers know about the extent of Luna's treatment by her peers but does Hermione. I highly doubt she'd approve of people taking Luna's things and not returning her belongings till the year's end. Hermione heard about Luna from Ginny ahead of time, so Hermione has probably looked into all these "sightings" Luna has said she has seen and who knows what other stuff is going about. Luna would probably make anyone feel skeptical reguarding her disposition.

Hermione likes reliability and most likely doesn't consider Luna to be a reliable source for much. But I do believe that is gonna change come book 6.

:)

Edit:
Hmm, reguarding the Ron and Luna interaction...I think such interaction may cause a reaction from Hermione whether or not her feelings toward Ron are romantic. Some people get used to be the center of another's attention and I think it is possible that Hermione would perhaps not like the turn of events. I don't think Ron would get involved with Luna just to make Hermione jealous, but I think it'd do the trick.

And even with that said, I still don't see where Hermione likes Ron's jealous attention. So she may very well not miss that kind of attention at all.

:)

Auror Fett
September 4th, 2003, 8:54 pm
I'm a veteran from this thread too. I ship H/Hr all the way!!! I also think it would be cool if a Neville/Ginny thing happened. Although D/G is a cool thing happening.

EricaM
September 4th, 2003, 9:03 pm
Old it may be, but no less significant for that. After all there was a two book lapse between the first mention of Sirius Black and when we actually got to meet him; a two book lapse between Dumbledore's first mention of Trelawney's first prediction and when he finally divulged the details of it. To think of just two examples.

Hmmm..."Next time there's a ball..." = book 4. Two book lapse = book 6. Very significant.

Do you think that JKR builds patterns like that in her story? There was no lapse in Harry's Cho fascination, it was built continuously over the course of three books. Ginny's crush on Harry appeared (more or less) continuously until the middle of GoF, than it disappears, and next we see Ginny again, she's given up/gotten over her crush.

Basically, you are suggesting that JKR, purposely made no strides forward in R/Hr, if so, for what purpose? The only romances JKR delves into/elaborates on are the ones that affect the plot (Ginny's crush vs Percy/Penelopy, Hagrid/Mme. Maxime, etc). How does R/Hr coming together affect the plot?

EDIT: Can I just come back on the idea that seems to be emerging that Hermione's dislike over Luna is currently because of Ron. I did not suggest that in my original post, nor do I necessarily think that that is the case at present. I was merely presenting the case of the general personality clash between Luna and Hermione as being a future mechanism whereby JK could allow Hermione's true feelings for Ron come to the fore, if, as seems likely, Luna continues to express an interest in Ron.[/QUOTE]

EDIT: Can I just come back on the idea that seems to be emerging that Hermione's dislike over Luna is currently because of Ron. I did not suggest that in my original post, nor do I necessarily think that that is the case at present. I was merely presenting the case of the general personality clash between Luna and Hermione as being a future mechanism whereby JK could allow Hermione's true feelings for Ron come to the fore, if, as seems likely, Luna continues to express an interest in Ron.

Again? R/Hr relationship progresses only when there is an occassion for jealousy? Ron/Viktor, Hermione/Fleur and next Hermione/Luna. I rather think that Hermine's irritation with Luna in the beginning replaced with tolerance later on is an illustration of Hermione's growth/development.

Daveydee
September 4th, 2003, 9:09 pm
Why would Hermione consider Luna an underdog? She is a pureblood, her father is editor of a paper, and she has a good amount of self-confidence it does apperar. Just becuase people think she is weird doesn't simply make Luna an underdog.
Underdog in the sense that Luna clearly struggles for acceptance amongst her peers. Borderline bullying as we discover late in OotP. Generally, Hermione is not likely to either condone such behaviour much less take part in it. Generally one would expect Hermione to be rather more supportive of Luna.

When all is said and done - it matters not. JK has presented the two girls as conflicting personalities. One has to ask the questions - Why has JK done that, and where is that conflict leading?

Fabiana
September 4th, 2003, 9:10 pm
Hi everybody,

Yeah, I'm kind of a newbie here too, but it didn't take long for me to see that this is quite addicting...

And yes, I'm a H/Hr shipper right from Philosopher's Stone. (Although I didn't know what ships meant at that time)

I always wanted and expected for H/Hr to be together in the books. Maybe it's because I could relate to the characters a bit, I think everybody does a bit of that that while reading any story... In the first three books I was sure it was going to happen.


So, when I read GoF I got almost crazy... I could have never imagined that there were going to be any R/H moments in the series (maybe I'm too naive). The fact was that there quite a lot of hints pointing towards a R/H ship, loads of interviews talking about the famous "tension", all my "real life" friends saying: "Ooh, Ron and Hermione are going to be a couple, doesn't that feel right to you?" and I felt pretty disappointed because for me, it didn't feel right at all.

Maybe it's because Hermione reminds of me when I was younger, maybe because I dated few guys like Ron and I could see that opposites don't attract, maybe because life taught me that superficial crushes almost never are able to nurture a complex and demanding feeling like love... I don't know really.

But I never really stop believing because, more than just a book, all my previous concepts of love were in check. I couldn't just give up believing the ideal concept of love I could see in H/Hr. If I ever gave up on that, I would have stopped pursuing that kind of love I want in my life.

And then, finally Ootp was released. I started reading it and found out that maybe I had been right all the time. JKR definitely left some clues for me in there. More than that, she emphasized how instinctual and platonic (in its classic meaning) H/Hr relationship is. She showed that Hermione was much important than any infatuation Harry might have had and that love (the one I always idealized) would protect him even if it was by a simple warning voice inside his mind. I didn't need much more than that to continue believing.

Finally, one day some months ago I was getting old newspapers to clean something in my car. A story caught my attention… it was something like… With the upcoming release of the 5th book, a lot of HP fans were ecstatic (These weren't big news for me) - and there were a lot of fanfiction stories predicting what might will happen in book five (I wondered what fanfiction was, I really didn’t know) - and one of the most famous fanfiction stories in the Potterverse described how H/Hr fell in love after the defeat of Voldemort (What? So there are actually people that believe in it so much to create a story telling how it’s going to happen?)

I read the story and finally found the ship. It was a great surprise, ‘cause it was really nice to get to know people that actually thought like me. It was great to see the reasons I had developed in my mind written out there (sometimes even enhanced). Now, I’m sure that H/Hr happening or not, Harry dying or not, I’ve had fun, met a lot of nice people and learned some great lessons. (I think the greatest was: if it feels right to you, don’t stop believing).

Ok, I’m going to stop now, because this is way too cheesy.

See ya,

Daveydee
September 4th, 2003, 9:18 pm
Do you think that JKR builds patterns like that in her story? There was no lapse in Harry's Cho fascination, it was built continuously over the course of three books. Ginny's crush on Harry appeared (more or less) continuously until the middle of GoF, than it disappears, and next we see Ginny again, she's given up/gotten over her crush.

Basically, you are suggesting that JKR, purposely made no strides forward in R/Hr, if so, for what purpose? The only romances JKR delves into/elaborates on are the ones that affect the plot (Ginny's crush vs Percy/Penelopy, Hagrid/Mme. Maxime, etc). How does R/Hr coming together affect the plot?
I refer merely to specific occasions of foreshadowing, rather than continuing trends, which is an altogether separate angle to the debate. They're quite clearly there for all to see, directly from canon.

Again? R/Hr relationship progresses only when there is an occassion for jealousy? Ron/Viktor, Hermione/Fleur and next Hermione/Luna. I rather think that Hermine's irritation with Luna in the beginning replaced with tolerance later on is an illustration of Hermione's growth/development.Try not to think of the relationship being borne out of jealousy. More a case that such feelings of jealousy galvanising Ron and Hermiones true feelings for one another and bringing them to the fore.

Mad I
September 4th, 2003, 9:29 pm
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again? R/Hr relationship progresses only when there is an occassion for jealousy? Ron/Viktor, Hermione/Fleur and next Hermione/Luna. I rather think that Hermine's irritation with Luna in the beginning replaced with tolerance later on is an illustration of Hermione's growth/development.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try not to think of the relationship being borne out of jealousy. More a case that such feelings of jealousy galvanising Ron and Hermiones true feelings for one another and bringing them to the fore.
These are both good points but neither sounds like positive ideas, because even if jealousy is just "galvanising" or "bringing them out" it still is serving as a rather elemental part to the beginning of the relationship and frankly it doesn't sound like a good element of a relationship.

tree guardian
September 4th, 2003, 9:34 pm
Great post Fabiana! :clap: It was nicely sweet. Ahaa.

;)

Daveydee
September 4th, 2003, 9:43 pm
These are both good points but neither sounds like positive ideas, because even if jealousy is just "galvanising" or "bringing them out" it still is serving as a rather elemental part to the beginning of the relationship and frankly it doesn't sound like a good element of a relationship.
'Jealousy' is not neccessarily the word I would have chosen; it has too wide a range of manifestations, ranging from the harmlessly sweet to the destructively obsessive. I think the word 'realisation' is probably preferable.

Yes, welcome to CoSForums, Fabiana. I suspect you will find rather more dissent to your views here than at Portkey :p. Much better. :D

viktorija_hp
September 4th, 2003, 9:47 pm
Great post Fabiana!
I think just like, I mean, I ship H/Hr since Philosopher's Stone. I can't see her with Ron-yeah, opposites attract, but that is just not enough for good, lasting relatinship!
While reading OOTP I think everybody saw that Harry and Hermione just got something that is developing from the book 1, but maybe they are still too joung to realize and show it. (they are only 15!!)
That is just my opinion.

Mad I
September 4th, 2003, 9:48 pm
Okay, I understand a little bit more and it isn't that I disagree with your stance it is just that I didn't understand why you would use jealously in that instance......your point is valid though, that many of the times where Hermione and Ron are most prone to showing their feelings (or feelings if you disagree with this stance) toward each other is when they are furthest apart from dating (or basically when they are close to dating other people).

Earendil
September 4th, 2003, 9:49 pm
*stares around blankly* Part Five already of this cosmic thread. Nice to see everyone back for fifth helpings, as well as a few newcomers--welcome!

I refer merely to specific occasions of foreshadowing, rather than continuing trends, which is an altogether separate angle to the debate. They're quite clearly there for all to see, directly from canon.

Hi, Daveydee,
Re: your earlier post on Hermione and her personality clash with Luna, I see that your point is (more or less) that the author has created tension and/or conflict between Hermione and Luna in order to set the stage for a greater conflict between two girls who are interested in Ron, correct? Well, I feel like quite the blasphemous one when I say that, even as a casual R/L shipper, it has been fairly speculated that Luna has shown interest in Harry as well. I personally think she is Ron's intended, but the signals she directed toward Harry could easily be construed as flirting. How do the readers know that it isn't Luna's actions towards Harry that have fueled Hermione's disapproval of her?

We don't. I think it's safe to say that there is something suspicious about Hermione's initial aversion to Luna, who did nothing to Hermione to earn her disapproval other than be a space cadet. However, considering the fact that all the animosity that Hermione showed towards her was directed to her after an incident in which Luna was getting along well enough with Harry, rather than Ron.

FreckledApples
September 4th, 2003, 9:51 pm
Hey everyone! i almost went INSANE waiting for this thread to open again! lol i dont have anything to debate rite now i was just saying hi and that RON AND HERMIONE BELONG 2GETHER lol as for harry..dunno luna or ginny

Daveydee
September 4th, 2003, 9:55 pm
Hi Earendil - good to see you again. Hope you are well.

Aren't you the blasphemous one. Erm...what can I say - it was my idea first. :p

Mad I
September 4th, 2003, 9:57 pm
maybe they are still too joung to realize and show it. (they are only 15!!) I agree with this point very much, this is why I think that it is so weird that we have seen as many relationships come out of Ginny (Michael Corner and the ever disputed Dean) as we have out of Harry(Cho...sort of), Hermione(Krum...sort of), and Ron (?NONE?) combined.

tree guardian
September 4th, 2003, 10:03 pm
BTW I think another fancy shindig is very likely to happen. But I hope it's some sort of festival, instead of a Ball.

Daveydee
September 4th, 2003, 10:08 pm
BTW I think another fancy shindig is very likely to happen. But I hope it's some sort of festival, instead of a Ball.
I'm quite sure it will do. You see - all the ingredients are finally coming together.

Anyway, that's my two sickles for tonight. This time zone is pressing on and looks westward to colleagues on the Heron to continue what has been an interesting, well discussed and civil start to this fifth thread.

Mad-I Moody
September 4th, 2003, 10:10 pm
:welcome: fabiana! I'm waving from the Heron, but it's a friendly wave! :D I thought that was a nice post. In re: this

Maybe it's because Hermione reminds of me when I was younger, maybe because I dated few guys like Ron and I could see that opposites don't attract, maybe because life taught me that superficial crushes almost never are able to nurture a complex and demanding feeling like love... I don't know really.

I think you are quite right to base your feelings about who will fall in love with whom on personal experience. It is difficult, if not impossible, to see completely objectively without being influenced by past experiences and personal opinions. In is because of that, actually, that I have to disagree with you here. I think many girls, myself included, see something of Hermione in themselves. And I can speak from personal experience saying that opposites do indeed attract, and can often create a beautiful balance between different personalities. It just depends on the person. However, I would caution anyone against saying that opposites don't attract or opposites attract for a while but cannot form a lasting, solid relationship. I can tell you for certain that it isn't always that way. Besides, Hermione and Ron aren't total opposites. Their core values/characteristics are the same, IMO – friendship, loyalty, trust, bravery, determination, etc.


Try not to think of the relationship being borne out of jealousy. More a case that such feelings of jealousy galvanising Ron and Hermiones true feelings for one another and bringing them to the fore.

Kind of like Mr. Knightly's jealousy/Emma's jealousy in "Emma"? :D
The relationship isn't born out of jealousy. It is just that, until you realize that that emotion (jealousy) can be inspired in you by someone telling you that they have feelings for the man you care about, sometimes you don't even know that you care for him.

Mad I
September 4th, 2003, 10:15 pm
It just depends on the person I realize that you could say this for any relationship and any quality but this is the reasonw why I have problems with the opposites attract argument for Hermione and Ron. I am a bigger fan of the "tension" (which I guess is very similar if not the same as opposites attract....maybe it is just the wording that appeals to me).

viktorija_hp
September 4th, 2003, 10:16 pm
I think Ginny is sort of girl (btw, I know many girls like her) who keep dating with guys and they are almost never single, they keep changing them like on track! (I hope I'm not too rough)

Mad I
September 4th, 2003, 10:21 pm
I think Ginny is sort of girl (btw, I know many girls like her) who keep dating with guys and they are almost never single, they keep changing them like on track! (I hope I'm not too rough) Not only that but she is getting an early start to that habit (which is pretty much the point that I am trying to make) which could lead to later problems (although right now it doesn't seem to be that serious).

jeanie beanie
September 4th, 2003, 10:21 pm
Mad-I-Moody I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your comparison of the relationships in Emma and P & P to Ron and Hermione.

Daveydee, as always, great posts and interesting points.

I refrain from posting because usually there's someone else, such as the above people, who are so eloquent in expressing what I would like to say, but I did want to tell everyone how much I enjoy reading the debates. :)

GilyAnn
September 4th, 2003, 10:24 pm
Hi!

Well I'm a H/G shipper from the HMS Chocolate. I do believe that Ron and Hermione are ending up toguether although I have to say that it doesn't make me happy.


I would have to argue that the R/Hr relationship is very similar to the ones we see in Austen's writing. For instance:

In Emma, Mr. Knightly and Emma bicker about some things – like when Mr. Knightly disapproves of Emma's matchmaking when Harriet refuses the proposal of Robert Martin. ("You are no friend to Harriet" or something like that).

Mr. Knightly and Emma are also jealous of each other's suitors/prospects. When Emma thinks that Mr. Knightly is doting on Jane, she is jealous. When Mr. Knightly notices Emma and Frank spending time together, he is jealous. Note, Mr. Knightly generally disapproves of Frank, so his jealousy needn't indicate right away that he has feelings for Emma. (Ron and Krum? Hermione and Fleur?)

Mr. Knightly's romantic feelings toward Emma aren't very obvious at first, though they become more apparent in the chapter where he tries to kiss her hand. It seems that he wants to tell Emma that he loves her, but he always hesitates, as if unsure of himself. (Very Ron-ish, IMO).

In Emma, much of the romance is spurred on by Emma and Mr. Knightly's respective jealousy. Emma never realizes her feelings for Mr. Knightly until she becomes jealous of Harriet, or, at least, until she realizes that Harriet confesses feelings for Mr. Knightly. Mr. Knightly also realizes his feelings for Emma due to her involvement with Frank

Ahh! Yes I do agree with you. Ron and Hermione fit Emma extremelly well. Funny thing is that I like that type of bickering in Ron and Hermione(because of the age) in Emma I find it stupid (also because of the age. In Emma they are MUCH older)::ducks at flying tomatotes! stop! stop!::

I'm just reading this novel again. I have to say that their bickering is extremelly similar. Including those insults/bitty-bantering that they throw at each other specially on that refusal letter to Mr. Martin (Which I was furius BTW is the one I remember right now also!) it's kind of funny. Further into the novel some scenes clearly reminded me of the Yule Ball and R/Hr.

Gily Ann

Edit: on the subject of fast Ginny. Wasn't she with Michael Corner for a year?

Mad I
September 4th, 2003, 10:32 pm
on the subject of fast Ginny. Wasn't she with Michael Corner for a year?I wasn't necessarily saying that she was fast, but only that she has started to date fast (in my opinion these have two VERY different meanings). And when I say that she is starting to date fast I am only comparing her relationships to Harry's, Hermione's, and Ron's (or lack there of for Ron).

BlackKnight86
September 4th, 2003, 10:38 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

With pleasure. BTW welcome to CoSForums and the love
thread.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the welcome. Ummm....I've actually been on CoSForums since the fourth thread, an H/Hr shipper. I didn't know if you were aware of that, because it seemed as if you were...welcoming me onto the R/Hr ship. That was an impression, not an accusation; I just wanted to be sure that you knew. Please feel free to crush my arguments, IF you can; my ego is not easily bruised. I'm trying to stimulate debate, and I felt that I had raised valid questions and was looking for your point of view to help me explain them.

And on that note:

------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BlackKnight86

The phrase that Hermione says ("Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!") is often considered by R/Hr shippers as a clear, obvious request by Hermione for Ron to ask her out. The only thing is, that phrase is a direct answer to the question that she posed to Ron immediately prior to that ("Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is?"); and, as such, cannot be separated from that question without altering the context. Therefore, the connotation of the phrase must depend upon the unheard "problem" to which Hermione stated the "solution". The nature of that problem can only be guessed, since we walked in with Harry in the middle of the....um..."tension". Anyway, it's fair to say that Hermione was, in fact, speaking straightforward English; so, let's take a look at her two friends' reactions:
------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

Of course, we can only second guess but it doesn't take a huge leap of the imagination to conclude that Ron's complaint was that Hermione attended the ball with Krum rather than himself.
------------------------------------------------------

And it takes less of a leap to conclude that this was simply a resumption of the original complaint of Ron's, that Hermione was "fraternizing with the enemy". Perhaps Hermione started it, asking Ron "What's your problem?!". However, if we accept your conclusion, we still do not know whether Ron wanted Hermione to attend the Ball with him because he liked her (difficult to conclude, since he didn't even consider her until the night before); or because he thought she should have been more loyal to her him as her friend. That is why I asked the questions that I did - under the assumption that you were correct; because the points that I raised are valid questions if that is, in fact, the case.

------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

Each half of Hermione's statement qualifys the other, and each half stands perfectly well on its own.
------------------------------------------------

Uh, no, that is false. You just made two diametrically opposed points; "qualifies" means "to modify, limit, or restrict, as by giving exceptions". Either they qualify each other, or they stand on their own, unmodified. Since they were mentioned in a question/answer format, I would say that the question does, in fact, qualify the answer.

------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BlackKnight86

Now, just for the sake of the discussion, I'm going to assume that R/Hr shippers are correct in their assumption that this was a huge R/Hr shipping moment.
------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

You assume correctly.
-----------------------------------------------

And you presume incorrectly. By my statement, I merely qualifed the parameters within which I was about to make a point. I in no way, shape, or form agree with your position; I was simply using a common debating technique which sets the debators at a point of commonality, so that any further discussion takes place within the same frame of reference.

It's possible you were trying to be funny. If that is so, I apologize for misinterpreting. It came across as smugness. Once again, that was not an accusation, just an impression.

-------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BlackKnight86

Now, I can see where R/Hr shippers see the potential of unstated feelings, manifested in jealousy, on Ron's part for Hermione. I can even see, if the scene is taken at face value (without considering that we missed a significant portion of it), where R/Hr shippers may see some feeling for Hermione toward Ron. Where I'm having trouble is with the follow-up. Remember what Harry was thinking before the very last line: he was enjoying his newly repaired relationship with Ron too much to speak his mind. That tells me a couple of things:

1. "to speak his mind" - Harry seems to have had an opinion on the Yule Brawl, not just a confused "What were you two fighting about?". In other words, did he guess what the "problem" was?

2. "enjoying his newly repaired relationship with Ron" - Apparently, Harry was concerned that saying what was on his mind would negatively affect, in some way, that relationship. Otherwise, why would it cause him to hold his tongue?
---------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BlackKnight86

Please explain to me, first of all, why it is never heard from again? It doesn't make sense that it would stay hidden if Harry (through whose POV the story is told) witnessed the fight and guessed what it was about. Even if Ron and Hermione are "denying it", why would Harry? Remember, in OotP, Hermione asked Harry "What about you and Cho?". That's kind of an invitation for a "And what about you and Ron?". If they're such good friends, why is that such a stretch?
-----------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BlackKnight86

And even if Harry did not guess the reason for the brawl, why would he not ask either one, "what was all that about?". Even though Ron and Hermione apparently had "an unspoken agreement not to discuss their argument", they were "formal" with each other. Surely it aroused Harry's curiousity? Even if JKR wanted to keep it low-level until later books, she still has to explain why it completely dropped off Harry's radar for 1 1/2 years. That doesn't make sense.

There is, of course, that second point that I made, that Harry is concerned about affecting his relationship with Ron. If, as R/Hr shippers maintain, Harry has no interest in Hermione, and Ron's interest is so "clear" and "obvious"; how would telling Ron, "hey, I think Hermione likes you", affect Harry's and Ron's relationship negatively? Or, if Harry wanted to stay neutral, perhaps he could phrase it in a question "hey, Ron, do you like Hermione?". Or, even if he did not say anything to either one, why do we not see him pondering things, even if for a moment?
---------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Daveydee

I think all this has been covered above.
--------------------------------------------

Ummm...no, actually, it was not. These are the "answers" that you provided in post #29:

----------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Daveydee

I'm sure that Harry, as Ron's best buddy of many years, is perfectly aware of Ron's feelings towards Hermione.
----------------------------------------------

No evidence provided. No mention from Harry's perspective at all in the books, before or after the "Yule Brawl". That, of course, merely underscores my question, "Why no mention?" You're attempted answer:

----------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

Valid point, well made. I guess all I can say to that is... watch this space. "Next time there's a ball..."
----------------------------------------------

Ummmm....that is not an answer to the question. Ron asking Hermione to a future ball would also not answer the question. Why is a budding relationship between two best friends not noticed or mentioned by the one person who is closest to the two of them, and whom you are "sure....is perfectly aware of Ron's feelings towards Hermione". Even given Harry's imperfect powers of observation, that is difficult to believe that he didn't even think about it once (in other words, he doesn't have to say it to them...why does he not even mention it through the narrator?).

------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

1. Yes - Harry agreed with Hermione that Ron should have asked her first.
-------------------------------------------------

I'll simply repeat my previous comment: no evidence provided. No mention from Harry's perspective at all in the books, before or after the "Yule Brawl". If your assumption is correct, why no evidence?

The only actual answer that you gave was in regards to my question about Harry not wanting to hurt his newly repaired relationship with Ron by "speaking his mind". That only raised further questions:

-------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

2. Harry just didn't fancy the prospect of getting into another trivial argument with Ron so soon after settling their previous differences.

Why should he? It's between Hermione and Ron after all.

-------------------------------------------------
Really? And why would telling Ron, "I think Hermione likes you" start an argument? I would think that would be good news. Or, why would asking him "Do you like Hermione?" start an argument? If either question would, I think that speaks volumes about Ron's true character...but that's an entirely different post. What about later? After Ron has cooled off? Alternatively, instead of saying anything to either one, why did it not even enter his mind? My question stands as asked: Why have we heard nothing about this for 1 1/2 years? Are you saying he doesn't care? Is that what you mean by "it's between Hermione and Ron after all"? He doesn't care enough for it to even cross his mind once?

If "valid point, well made. I guess all I can say to that is... watch this space" is the best answer to these questions that you can give, then I would submit that your position is neither "clear" nor "obvious", both words you have used to describe R/Hr.

Thanks for writing back! Have a wonderful day!

BlackKnight86

Mad I
September 4th, 2003, 10:45 pm
Really? And why would telling Ron, "I think Hermione likes you" start an argument? I would think that would be good news. Or, why would asking him "Do you like Hermione?" start an argument? If either question would, I think that speaks volumes about Ron's true character...but that's an entirely different post. I wouldn't say that it would start an argument, but it sure wouldn't go over well if Ron was in a bad mood, or anything other than a good one. I do agree however that it is odd that it hasn't come up at all in any conversations in the past 1 1/2 years (I am simply hoping that it does come up so that the problems revolving around it can be solved).

Prongs, Sr.
September 4th, 2003, 10:48 pm
:welcome: Hi All Shippers!

I ship H/G, and do think R/Hr will happen in the books, so I'm a supporter of that ship. I also love Remus/Tonks, even though there is little support it. Remus needs someone more outgoing and Tonks fits the bill. I did notice a little teasing interaction between them, though...hhmmmm.

Mad I
September 4th, 2003, 10:54 pm
I also love Remus/Tonks, even though there is little support it. Remus needs someone more outgoing and Tonks fits the bill. I did notice a little teasing interaction between them, though...hhmmmm. Interesting.....does anyone know the approx. age difference between them (I am guessing that Lupin is somewhere in his mid-30s because isn't that how old James was?) because I think that it is a little too big for a possible relatioship (isn't Tonks like 20?).

Mad-I Moody
September 4th, 2003, 10:56 pm
I just have one quick response to this:
Are you saying he doesn't care? Is that what you mean by "it's between Hermione and Ron after all"? He doesn't care enough for it to even cross his mind once?

I can't speak for daveydee, of course, but I'd like to offer my opinion on this. Harry, as we have discovered in OotP, is a bit...erm...dense when it comes to matters of the heart. He doesn't understand the overly emotional Cho. He doesn't seem to understand, very well, typical boy/girl romantic interactions. I think that the "Harry thought Hermione got the point more than Ron" or whatever the quote is merely shows that Hermione's point "The solution to your "problem," Ron" (whether it is the problem of her going with Krum because he's 'the enemy' or because Ron thinks Hermione should have gone with him (obligation as a friend, liking, whatever -- it doesn't really matter, IMO)) "Is to ask me next time there is a ball, instead of waiting until the last minute, because someone else will ask me" - was abundantly clear to Harry. If Ron had a problem with Hermione going to the ball with someone else (whatever the reasons behind it may be), he should have asked her first. Harry gets that. Ron splutters sentence fragments -- He doesn't really get it.

In short, Harry's lack of thought or commentary on the alleged feelings brewing between Ron and Hermione doesn't mean that they aren't there, nor does it mean that he notices them and doesn't care. This is very easily attributable to Harry's -- um -- thickness when it comes to things like this (a thickness that is displayed in canon, OotP).

Everyone have a great evening (or whatever, depending on where you are in the world). Enjoy posting! :D

Oh, and jeanie beanie, thanks for the compliment. But we want to hear from you! By all means, post your thoughts!
:tu: to the HMS Heron.

Muddgutts
September 4th, 2003, 11:18 pm
Hello everyone,

just wanted to throw my vote in the box. I truely believe its going to be Harry and Hermione in the end, not that there wont be a flare up between Ron and Hermione first. Tho I think it will be a bit one sided. I just don't think JR would let this fate be so easy to read. She likes to pull things out of her hat and surprise us. well thats my thoughts. Have fun everyone.

Fairydust
September 4th, 2003, 11:43 pm
Oh my ******* gosh. I can't believe I missed so much. Darn school. Anyhoo, I'm back and ready to join ranks again. R/H and H/G all the way...

Mad I
September 4th, 2003, 11:44 pm
I can't believe I missed so much. Apparantly people were eager to get back posting on this thread again....who would have thunk it???

Narami
September 4th, 2003, 11:45 pm
I'm late again!! 3 pages already!!! this thread goes way to fast :wow:. Well I just wanted to say Hello to EVERYONE!!! :cool:.
I haven't been here as much as I would like, my computer has been playing "lets make my owner angry" with me lately, but this is the best thread ever!!! Let's all be nice in it, if they close it I'll be :sad:.
Muchos Saludos!! ( big HELLO) to my fellow shippers Sirius, Earendil, and everyone else. Muddgutts :welcome: I like your pic :rolleyes:.
Oh and, I beleive every ship can happen, only that some are more likely. I've favor H/Hr since I saw the first movie. In fact, when I heard about R/Hr I didn't understand why, but someone suggested this thread and here I am enjoying different PsOV.
I also like N/G & R/L

Mad I
September 4th, 2003, 11:50 pm
3 pages already!!! See my above comment.....But, anyway getting down to business, does anyone happen to know the approx. ages of Lupin and Tonks and them having a relationship was brought up and from what I remeber from the books is Lupin is in his mid-30s and Tonks is in her early 20s, anyone have some info to tell me the real numbers (because I am probably off)

Daveydee
September 4th, 2003, 11:52 pm
Thanks for the welcome. Ummm....I've actually been on CoSForums since the fourth thread, an H/Hr shipper. I didn't know if you were aware of that, because it seemed as if you were...welcoming me onto the R/Hr ship. That was an impression, not an accusation; I just wanted to be sure that you knew. Please feel free to crush my arguments, IF you can; my ego is not easily bruised. I'm trying to stimulate debate, and I felt that I had raised valid questions and was looking for your point of view to help me explain them.
I'm so sorry about that BlackKnight, I was sure the name was familiar but I looked at your post count which was 1, it not having occured to me that all post counts have apparently dropped.


-----------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

Of course, we can only second guess but it doesn't take a huge leap of the imagination to conclude that Ron's complaint was that Hermione attended the ball with Krum rather than himself.
------------------------------------------------------

And it takes less of a leap to conclude that this was simply a resumption of the original complaint of Ron's, that Hermione was "fraternizing with the enemy". Perhaps Hermione started it, asking Ron "What's your problem?!". However, if we accept your conclusion, we still do not know whether Ron wanted Hermione to attend the Ball with him because he liked her (difficult to conclude, since he didn't even consider her until the night before); or because he thought she should have been more loyal to her him as her friend. That is why I asked the questions that I did - under the assumption that you were correct; because the points that I raised are valid questions if that is, in fact, the case.
OK, I see now where you're coming from. I can only say my own gut feeling and interpretation of the text leads me to believe that the 'problem' was that Ron wanted Hermione to attend the ball with him because he liked her, and not because he felt that she owed him more loyalty than Krum. There always comes a moment of realisation for everyone; for Ron it was evidently the night before. That's just my interpretation.


------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

Each half of Hermione's statement qualifys the other, and each half stands perfectly well on its own.
------------------------------------------------

Uh, no, that is false. You just made two diametrically opposed points; "qualifies" means "to modify, limit, or restrict, as by giving exceptions". Either they qualify each other, or they stand on their own, unmodified. Since they were mentioned in a question/answer format, I would say that the question does, in fact, qualify the answer.
Maybe we have differing understandings of definitions. In any case Hermione poses the question and then answers it herself.



-----------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

You assume correctly.
-----------------------------------------------

And you presume incorrectly. By my statement, I merely qualifed the parameters within which I was about to make a point. I in no way, shape, or form agree with your position; I was simply using a common debating technique which sets the debators at a point of commonality, so that any further discussion takes place within the same frame of reference.

It's possible you were trying to be funny. If that is so, I apologize for misinterpreting. It came across as smugness. Once again, that was not an accusation, just an impression.
No it was not smugness. I am not smug. It was intended to be humorous, hence the addition of the smiley. :D. Therefore, I graciously accept your apology.


----------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Daveydee

I'm sure that Harry, as Ron's best buddy of many years, is perfectly aware of Ron's feelings towards Hermione.
----------------------------------------------

No evidence provided. No mention from Harry's perspective at all in the books, before or after the "Yule Brawl".
That, of course, merely underscores my question, "Why no mention?" You're attempted answer:

----------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

Valid point, well made. I guess all I can say to that is... watch this space. "Next time there's a ball..."
----------------------------------------------

Ummmm....that is not an answer to the question. Ron asking Hermione to a future ball would also not answer the question. Why is a budding relationship between two best friends not noticed or mentioned by the one person who is closest to the two of them, and whom you are "sure....is perfectly aware of Ron's feelings towards Hermione". Even given Harry's imperfect powers of observation, that is difficult to believe that he didn't even think about it once (in other words, he doesn't have to say it to them...why does he not even mention it through the narrator?).
I don't know why JK has chosen not to have Harry allude to it. I merely base my assumption on gut instinct that two close friends would generally have some knowledge of the others' thoughts about certain females, as they would have knowledge about other personal matters pertaining to the other, which do not neccessarily get mentioned.


------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

1. Yes - Harry agreed with Hermione that Ron should have asked her first.
-------------------------------------------------

I'll simply repeat my previous comment: no evidence provided. No mention from Harry's perspective at all in the books, before or after the "Yule Brawl". If your assumption is correct, why no evidence?

The only actual answer that you gave was in regards to my question about Harry not wanting to hurt his newly repaired relationship with Ron by "speaking his mind". That only raised further questions:
Hermione's 'point' was that Ron should have asked her 'first and not as a last resort'. Harry concurred with Hermione's point, thereby agreeing that Ron should indeed have asked her first.


-------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Daveydee

2. Harry just didn't fancy the prospect of getting into another trivial argument with Ron so soon after settling their previous differences.

Why should he? It's between Hermione and Ron after all.

-------------------------------------------------
Really? And why would telling Ron, "I think Hermione likes you" start an argument? I would think that would be good news. Or, why would asking him "Do you like Hermione?" start an argument? If either question would, I think that speaks volumes about Ron's true character...but that's an entirely different post. What about later? After Ron has cooled off? Alternatively, instead of saying anything to either one, why did it not even enter his mind? My question stands as asked: Why have we heard nothing about this for 1 1/2 years? Are you saying he doesn't care? Is that what you mean by "it's between Hermione and Ron after all"? He doesn't care enough for it to even cross his mind once?
The Yule brawl wasn't concerning the issue of whether or not Hermione likes Ron. It was specifically an argument over who should have asked whom and when. Whatever the finer points of the argument, Harry clearly agreed with Hermione's stance, and to continue the argument with Ron in her absence would only have inflamed an already wound up Ron still further, something Harry was quite understandibly not prepared to do given their recent reconciliation.


If "valid point, well made. I guess all I can say to that is... watch this space" is the best answer to these questions that you can give, then I would submit that your position is neither "clear" nor "obvious", both words you have used to describe R/Hr.
Not questions - question. One specific question of yours. Why has Harry not alluded to the Yule Ball in 1 1/2 years. Well Harry might have, but clearly JK hasn't - I guess she was whetting our appetites. She likes to do that.

haycheng
September 5th, 2003, 12:01 am
Hi everyone *wave from Bay Area, CA*.
I really do not have much to add at this point but I want to offer an alternate answer to Ron's reaction after the Yale Ball.

When I first read the scene, I consider it is jealous from Ron too. May be jealous of Hermione being popular or he is jealous of Kurm. I do not know. Then I decided to dismiss the jealous theory somehow(may be I just hate to see kids jealous of each other).

I was think was Ron's angry because of his overzealot about Harry. He just make up with Harry. May be he is over sensitive about Hermione reaction. In a sense, Hermione's action does look kind of kike betray under Ron's standard. Ron has very strick rule about loyality, and it may be more so after the fallout with Harry.

It is just a though. Do not bash me!!
as usually, I support H/Hr, or H/G. do not mind R/L either. I just do not believe in R/Hr. Just want to repost my stand.

Narami
September 5th, 2003, 12:02 am
Well I have been under the impression that Lupin is in his 30's and Tonks was describe as "the youngest" in the guard. In the picture p.845 AV, she was made to look almost like a kid, and Lupin looks very old (4 her al least). But there's a lot of people voting for them together. The exact age (of them both) hasn't been specified in the books I think.

BlackKnight86
September 5th, 2003, 12:10 am
------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mad-I Moody

Harry, as we have discovered in OotP, is a bit...erm...dense when it comes to matters of the heart.
------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but that is not a valid explanation. Harry is not stupid; he's merely inexperienced in dating. He doesn't understand the "overly emotional Cho" for exactly that reason - because she's overly emotional! This isn't some Mars/Venus thing; if she wanted to talk to him about Cedric, she should have just come out and said it, instead of coming at him as if she were interested in him. As far as matters of the heart go, it would certainly appear that Harry does, in fact, understand his own feelings...at least as they are at the time. In addition, I would point out to you that in GoF, Harry was cognizant enough to wonder if all of the girls giggling at him and/or asking him to the Yule Ball only liked him because he was a champion. Sounds to me like he was not as dense as you might think.

Oh, I forgot to mention the fact that you're contradicting your shipmate. As Daveydee clearly stated,

------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Daveydee

I'm sure that Harry, as Ron's best buddy of many years, is perfectly aware of Ron's feelings towards Hermione.
-------------------------------------------------

I'm not asking if Harry understood anything. I'm simply asking, if he was "perfectly aware", then why, in 1 1/2 years, was there no mention to Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, Sirius, SOMEONE....even a thought that the reader could see....of his awareness of those feelings.

------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mad-I Moody

He doesn't seem to understand, very well, typical boy/girl romantic interactions.
------------------------------------------------

OK, here's where we obviously operate from different frames of reference. I've taught in every grade from K-12, and I've seen no such "typical boy/girl romantic interactions". I have seen a wide range of different "interactions"; and when those "interactions" involve treating your best friend like garbage, making blatantly false accusations against her, publicly berating her for no legitimate reason, and insulting her....well, "typically", we're trained to see that as being a negative and to be prepared to intervene, if necessary.

If you all think that's "sweet".........well, there ya go.

------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mad-I Moody

If Ron had a problem with Hermione going to the ball with someone else (whatever the reasons behind it may be), he should have asked her first. Harry gets that. Ron splutters sentence fragments -- He doesn't really get it
------------------------------------------------

I'm not disputing that, Mad-I. However, the attribution of romantic desire to that conclusion is weak. That could simply be a reaction by Hermione on how outrageously shallow Ron was to treat her like an "emergency date" the day before the event, after having insulted women that he did not find attractive by calling them "trolls" in front of her; THEN having the utter impertinence to get angry with her when she had made other plans. I'm not saying your conclusions are necessarily incorrect. However, if they are correct, where is the further development of their relationship? They still bicker - not gentle banter, but enough to make Harry, on 2 separate occasions in 2 books, leave their presence (the second time, he told them to shut up). After 1 1/2 years, he still hasn't apologized (I seem to recall R/Hr shippers claiming that, after the Scabbers incident, Hermione should have apologized....even though Ron was ultimately proven wrong! Sauce for the goose, as the saying goes). If the development is "hidden", which seems to be a popular theme....WHY? What possible literary motivation would an author have to do that? What possible effect would that author hope to have on her readers?

------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mad-I Moody

In short, Harry's lack of thought or commentary on the alleged feelings brewing between Ron and Hermione doesn't mean that they aren't there, nor does it mean that he notices them and doesn't care.
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It doesn't mean they are, either, now does it? But of course, you could say that about anything, couldn't you?

"Harry's lack of thought or commentary on fill in the blank doesn't mean that they aren't there."

That does not, of course, answer the question as to WHY it's omitted, or the purpose that it serves to the story.

I'll tell you what. I have an easy question for R/Hr shippers. What specific canon support do you have for R/Hr besides their constant fighting?

Thanks for writing! Have a wonderful day!

BlackKnight86

Fairydust
September 5th, 2003, 12:18 am
wow. nice posts R/H shippers. take a :clap:

Anyhoo on to business.

Hi everyone *wave from Bay Area, CA*.
I really do not have much to add at this point but I want to offer an alternate answer to Ron's reaction after the Yale Ball.

Welcome back. Is it hot where you're at because it's crazy hot in bc right now. anyhoo that was off topic.

When I first read the scene, I consider it is jealous from Ron too. May be jealous of Hermione being popular or he is jealous of Kurm. I do not know. Then I decided to dismiss the jealous theory somehow(may be I just hate to see kids jealous of each other).

Personal opinion aside, I think that Ron was jealous that Krum was with Hermione. And I'm not saying it because I like the whole jealousy brings people together idea, it's just my interpretation on the scenes.


I was think was Ron's angry because of his overzealot about Harry. He just make up with Harry. May be he is over sensitive about Hermione reaction. In a sense, Hermione's action does look kind of kike betray under Ron's standard. Ron has very strick rule about loyality, and it may be more so after the fallout with Harry.

Now I'm definitely going to have to disagree with you there. I don't think Ron was mad at Hermione because he was jealous of Harry. Sure he might have not fully gotten over the fact that Harry was a champion, but he did come to terms with it and made up with Harry. He was even going to apologise for the way he was behaving but Harry stopped him. Ron's a proud person. I don't think he apologises much. If he could apologise to Harry then it means that he was probably over most of it.

As for him getting mad at Hermione, my interpretation is that he was jealous of the fact that she went with Krum and not with him when he asked her. When he kept asking her who she went with she kept dodging the question. When he saw her with Krum that probably invoked some jealousy within towards Krum. I think Ron was jealous of the fact that Krum got to take Hermione and not himself. Basically because he hadn't actually realised his feelings for her until probably after the ball actually happened.

It is just a though. Do not bash me!!
as usually, I support H/Hr, or H/G. do not mind R/L either. I just do not believe in R/Hr. Just want to repost my stand.

I'm not going to bassh you and I'm sure most others aren't either. I don't think anyone would start the hate because then the thread would be closed down again for a bit. Your opinion and I respect them. Hopefully others will respect yours and mine. :p

Just the two cents.

Daveydee
September 5th, 2003, 12:24 am
BlackKnight,

The beauty of HMS Heron is that we do not all march to the same tune. We are individuals after all. All we seek is the truth.

As for Mad-I Moody's explanation of Harry's cluelessness, I have to say it's a perfectly valid alternative view. Unless of course you're suggesting that he's not clueless in that department.

As for canon support for R/Hr, there's an interesting theory on page 1 of this thread posted by myself, in fact. Together with 4 previous incarnations of this thread, and 6 incarnations of the Book 5 love thread, where plenty of canon evidence has been posted. Though no doubt we will go over it again....and again...and again...and...

Auror Fett
September 5th, 2003, 12:37 am
The ball scene I have to admit, Ron was most likely showing jealousy toward Hermione. But you must remember that J.K. said that they all are falling in love with the wrong people. Now Ron showing jealousy toward Hermione signals he most likely likes her. Well, if he likes her, maybe she's the wrong one. Harry fell for Cho after all and that was wrong. Now for Ginny, I'm not saying she was in love with Corner but she did ditch him and go with Dean. Btw, I can't believe my post count went down so much!

Fairydust
September 5th, 2003, 12:42 am
JK said that they were after the wrong people. At that time Ron was after Fleur. Hermione was with Krum, Harry was after Cho and Ginny went to the ball with Neville but hooked up with Michael. I'd say they're all with the wrong people or after the wrong people. And I thought quotes weren't going to be discussed because so many people got angry at interpretations or whatnot.

GilyAnn
September 5th, 2003, 12:48 am
The ball scene I have to admit, Ron was most likely showing jealousy toward Hermione. But you must remember that J.K. said that they all are falling in love with the wrong people. Now Ron showing jealousy toward Hermione signals he most likely likes her. Well, if he likes her, maybe she's the wrong one. Harry fell for Cho after all and that was wrong. Now for Ginny, I'm not saying she was in love with Corner but she did ditch him and go with Dean. Btw, I can't believe my post count went down so much!

Yes she did say that but she also said that:

Will Ron ever get a girlfriend?

I'm laughing again.... Why wouldn't he?! Though he's not doing too well at the moment, is he? But then, Fleur Delacour was really aiming a bit high.

Found here. (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-livechat-barnesnoble.html)


We also got the part were she says that they are after the wrong people and that Ron doesn't realize it yet. So I think that when she said that she was refering too H/C, HR/K and R/Fl.

Gily Ann

Buttercup
September 5th, 2003, 12:49 am
OK, I am jumping into this here and totalling going off the subject of the previous posts.

First of all I would like to thank whoever it was back on page one who clarified what the 'Heron' is.

So these are the ships names if I am correct...

Harmony: H/Hr
Heron: R/H
Chocolate: H/G

and the winner for best name goes to.....Chocolate, I mean how can you go wrong with that? Even if it doesn't happen in canon there is nothing wrong with chocolate.

Am I missing any other names?

I seem to recall a SPREE that went with the joke ship Eloise/Ron or am I wrong?

I just am wondering why the subject of Ron being jealous of Krum keeps coming up. Isn't kind of redudant? I think everyone on all ships unversally agrees that Ron has some sort of feelings for Hermione. So why keep bringing up the jealous parts. Of course if he like Hermione he is going to be jealous of Krum. But he has other reasons for being jealous of him too. Like Krum's fame and money.

I also keep wondering about the 'ask me next time' comment. I too at first thought it could be that Hermione wanted him to ask her and not because she is his best friend. But after reading a lot of posts I have no clue what it means. It gives me a headache to think about it.

But I wonder if there will be a ball or dance now that there is a war going on. Is the school going to allow one. I can't possibly see it happening so I wonder when or if Ron will have the opportunity to ask. Maybe he won't say anything to her unless a dance is announced.

If Ron/Hr do happen I don't think it will be played out that much because the story is mainly about Harry. Yes a R/Hr relationship will affect Harry but I don't think it will be a big plot line.

Polaris15
September 5th, 2003, 12:52 am
As for him getting mad at Hermione, my interpretation is that he was jealous of the fact that she went with Krum and not with him when he asked her.

Ron has no reason to be angry at Hermione. He didn't ask her first, and treated her like a last resort. You gave the impression that Ron asked Hermione first, and Hermione went behind Ron's back to date Victor, but that wasn't the case. Ron wasn't mad and jealous before the Yule Ball. He was only curious.

When he kept asking her who she went with she kept dodging the question.

She dodged the question because she was afraid Ron'd make fun of her. Who could blame her? Ron didn't even believe her when she said someone had asked her already. Shows a lot about Ron's opinion of Hermione.

When he saw her with Krum that probably invoked some jealousy within towards Krum. I think Ron was jealous of the fact that Krum got to take Hermione and not himself.

I think Ron's so-called jealousy has to do largely with Krum. The fact that Krum is an international quidditch star really makes a difference. Ron has been going out of his way to get Krum's autograph in the beginning (and he even swallowed his "pride" to get Krum's signiture in the end.) Anyway, the fact is, Ron wasn't at all jealous when he heard that Neville asked Hermione. He thought it was comical, so we can safely assume that Ron doesn't have a crush on Hermione prior to the Yule Ball.

Basically because he hadn't actually realised his feelings for her until probably after the ball actually happened

Completely agree :agree: However, this stands against R/Hr. It makes me wonder whether Ron truly "likes" Hermione. Prior to Yule Ball, we see that he doesn't admire Hermione in anyway. He asks her as a last resort to the ball and didn't believe her when she said that she had already been asked. Then Hermione shows up dazzeling with an internationally famous quidditch star. I don't blame him for being jealous; he should be jealous, but pity that it took dress-robes and 10 gallons of sleaky-sleezy hair potion for Ron to become jealous. JK purposefully wrote it this way to make the reader wonder whether Ron's crush on Hermione is real or superficial and merely based on her looks. And since we agree on the fact that Ron's "crush" started after the Yule Ball, it is perfectly logical that Ron's crush is based solely on physcial appearance and is about as deep as a puddle on a sunny day.

~Polaris :D

haycheng
September 5th, 2003, 12:53 am
Have anyone think about Percy's gf? What happen to her after Percy disown his family? Do you think his gf stick with Percy?

ana_banana
September 5th, 2003, 12:59 am
I ship H/G and R/Hr....
One of you mentioned that Harry hasn't ever mentioned there's something going on with Ron and Hermione...I think he's had his lesson, he's sick of the arguments between them, why would he ask one of them something that will not only make THEM fight but involve HIM??
I used to think there would be a chance for Harry/Hermione but then I realized there's no real evidence between them more than friends. Harry gets tired of her very easily, and Hermione is way too bossy, way too into her books, and Harry can't trust her if it's about breaking a rule or something. She's gotten herself in a point where Harry cares about her, yes, she's his friend. But I don't see any real evidence. And as for R/Hr not having clues to their romance besides their fighting.....Fighting is a huge clue, but there are other comments and things that make it clear they both have feelings for each other. If you understand how their characters are (very stubborn is one of the descriptions) you'll see the R/Hr relationships happen everywhere all the time.

humongoratdropping
September 5th, 2003, 12:59 am
******, I started school on Wed. and look at what i missed...wow.....

Auror Fett
September 5th, 2003, 1:00 am
Ron was not in love with Fleur it was just a veela-attraction that enriced him. At least that's my opinion.And now I'll say this,if Ron was in love with Fleur, why was he jealous of Hermione and Krum during the Yule Ball?

Polaris15
September 5th, 2003, 1:03 am
[[I just am wondering why the subject of Ron being jealous of Krum keeps coming up. Isn't kind of redudant?]]

Not to me

[[I think everyone on all ships unversally agrees that Ron has some sort of feelings for Hermione. So why keep bringing up the jealous parts. Of course if he like Hermione he is going to be jealous of Krum.]]

But does he truly "like" Hermione??

Fairydust
September 5th, 2003, 1:08 am
Completely agree :agree: However, this stands against R/Hr. It makes me wonder whether Ron truly "likes" Hermione. Prior to Yule Ball, we see that he doesn't admire Hermione in anyway.
I'm going to have to disagree with you. He probably doesn't admire her looks but he does admire how smart she is. And not just because she helps him on homework. I mean, he remembers her test results and everything. He admires her brains.

He asks her as a last resort to the ball and didn't believe her when she said that she had already been asked. Then Hermione shows up dazzeling with an internationally famous quidditch star. I don't blame him for being jealous; he should be jealous, but pity that it took dress-robes and 10 gallons of sleaky-sleezy hair potion for Ron to become jealous. JK purposefully wrote it this way to make the reader wonder whether Ron's crush on Hermione is real or superficial and merely based on her looks. And since we agree on the fact that Ron's "crush" started after the Yule Ball, it is perfectly logical that Ron's crush is based solely on physcial appearance and is about as deep as a puddle on a sunny day.

I'm going to have to disagree. When Hermione came into the ball with Krum he didn't even look at her. There's no mention of the way she looks by him. It's only said that he looked beadily or some stuff like that at where she and Krum were dancing or something like that. I'll agree that Ron probably figured out that he had feelings for Hermione. But I'm going to disagree with you that he likes her only for her looks. I mean, she's gone back to looking the way she does and you don't hear a complaint from him about it. I'll admit that I think Ron can be a bit shallow. But that's a lot of guys in the HP world including Harry that are somewhat shallow also. Saying that Ron liking Hermione is solely based on her looks is saying that Eloise Midgeon is acne free when we know she isn't.

Just my humble opinion though.

Anyhoo, I also wondered about Percy's girlfriend, Penelope, haycheng. She wasn't mentioned in this book or book 4. I'll assume that they've broken up. Pity though, I actually liked them together.

EDITED to add: Ron was not in love with Fleur it was just a veela-attraction that enriced him. At least that's my opinion.And now I'll say this,if Ron was in love with Fleur, why was he jealous of Hermione and Krum during the Yule Ball?

I don't get what you're saying but I'll try to answer in my opinion. In my opinion no one was "in love" with anyone save maybe Cho and Cedric. It was all just likes and flings going on. Ron was indeed jealous of Hermione and Krum. I'll agree on that... :agree:

Polaris15
September 5th, 2003, 1:26 am
[[He probably doesn't admire her looks but he does admire how smart she is. And not just because she helps him on homework. I mean, he remembers her test results and everything. He admires her brains]]
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
I'm sorry, but you'll have to use cannon to convince me.



[[When Hermione came into the ball with Krum he didn't even look at her.]]
probably doesn't even recognize her without her bushy hair :lol:


[[There's no mention of the way she looks by him]]
There shouldn't be; it's from Harry's POV, on the other hand we did get a nice reaction out of Harry. :elaugh:

[[But I'm going to disagree with you that he likes her only for her looks. I mean, she's gone back to looking the way she does and you don't hear a complaint from him about it.]]

Then again, he doesn't want to get slapped by Hermione does he.

[[I'll admit that I think Ron can be a bit shallow]]

Well said.

[[Saying that Ron liking Hermione is solely based on her looks is saying that Eloise Midgeon is acne free when we know she isn't]]

But Hermione says that its getting better. We all know that Hermione never lies; well, except for Harry :D

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 1:30 am
I'm going to have to disagree with you. He probably doesn't admire her looks but he does admire how smart she is. And not just because she helps him on homework. I mean, he remembers her test results and everything. He admires her brains. Very good point, I would even go so far as to say that Ron admires the fact that Hermione can put up with the (although not exactly constant) negative comments made toward her lineage (the mudblood stuff mostly).

I'll agree that Ron probably figured out that he had feelings for Hermione. But I'm going to disagree with you that he likes her only for her looks. I am going to attack the language here and be touchy about it......Ron doesn't like Hermione ONLY because of her looks but, as with almost all relationships (especially earlier ones which are usually less mature) looks are a rather major factor. I would say that it took seeing Hermoine all "girled up" for Ron to realize his other feelings for her (such as his respect and admiration for her mind).
Originally Posted by Auror77
Ron was not in love with Fleur it was just a veela-attraction that enriced him. At least that's my opinion.And now I'll say this,if Ron was in love with Fleur, why was he jealous of Hermione and Krum during the Yule Ball? I disagree with this becuase it is my feeling that Ron could have liked Fleur and Hermione and still been jealous of someone else's relationship with one even though he likes someone else.....kind of confusing the way I put it, if someone needs more explanation just ask (I will figure something out).

Auror Fett
September 5th, 2003, 1:31 am
I wasn't saying he was in love either. Yes, he was jealous of Hermione, I'll admit that. But this crush might just die away, I mean, he's growing up just like Harry. Harry found out Cho wasn't all what he thought she was, maybe Ron will realize that too. In the meantime, Harry has grown more protective of Hermione, him pulling her and running when Ginny was RIGHT BEHING HIM AND CLOSER. I could name more points of reference but you get the picture.

Muddgutts
September 5th, 2003, 1:31 am
wow three pages and my head is spinning already. :upset:
theres so many good pionts in all your views I'm just lost. going back to the gallery forum :huh:

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 1:42 am
maybe Ron will realize that too Ron is learning more and more things about Hermione as they grow older together (and with Harry of course) and I feel that this will lead to Hermione either scaring away Ron and/or Harry as far as romanticism goes or bringing them closer.

Polaris15
September 5th, 2003, 1:46 am
[[Ron admires the fact that Hermione can put up with the (although not exactly constant) negative comments made toward her lineage (the mudblood stuff mostly).]]

Who doesn't really? But Ron wasn't too keen on Hermione standing up for other people now is he?

[[Ron doesn't like Hermione ONLY because of her looks but, as with almost all relationships (especially earlier ones which are usually less mature) looks are a rather major factor. ]]

wow, Ron sounds really shallow, but then again, looks are really important to Ron. :rolleyes:

[[I would say that it took seeing Hermoine all "girled up" for Ron to realize his other feelings for her (such as his respect and admiration for her mind).]]

Hermione has to "doll up" in order for Ron to respect and admire her? Wow he sure had a funny way in showing it when he blew up at her after the ball. On the other hand, Harry recognizes and admires Hermione's intelligence regardless of how Hermione looks. Clearly, there is a large distinction between Ron and Harry's feelings towards Hermione.

Fairydust
September 5th, 2003, 1:49 am
I'm sorry, but you'll have to use cannon to convince me.

Okay, here's a few. "But you got 320 percent". I can't remember the exact number and I'm paraphrasing, but I know that he said this to her back on the train when she said she was going to turn in her time turner and give up muggle studies. "Don't worry about it" (Ron to Harry I think) "remember, she got 112 percent on one of her exams" I don't know the exact quote but this was right when Hermione was going to take her charms owl and was looking nervous. Ron said this to Harry. Now Hermione took that exam in first year. Ron's a pretty forgetful guy. Why would he, of all people, remember such small facts about Hermione?

probably doesn't even recognize her without her bushy hair :lol:

That's of course your opinion. I'll disagree. :D

There shouldn't be; it's from Harry's POV, on the other hand we did get a nice reaction out of Harry.

Ron would most likely tell Harry what he thought of the girls. For example, he did say that one of the girls that asked Harry to the ball was pretty. He's mentioned the way people look before. In this instance we get him just staring at Hermione and Krum.

My interpretation of the scene when Harry described Hermione as looking pretty wasn't anything really. I mean, it was like he couldn't believe that Hermione could actually be pretty. Even so, just because he thought she looked pretty for one night doesn't mean that he thinks she's the purtiest girl everyday. I've made my thoughts on this subject in the past thread. I don't want to go over them again.

Then again, he doesn't want to get slapped by Hermione does he

Yeah, I'm going to disagree. For one thing, Hermione would probably never slap Ron or anyone that was her friend. Anoither thing, Ron doesn't complain because there's nothing to complain about. The thing I was getting at was that Ron liked her the way she looked. Bushy hair and all.

Well said.

Funny, you didn't put the rest of my quote. :nc:

But Hermione says that its getting better. We all know that Hermione never lies; well, except for Harry :D

It's getting better yet Hermione can somewhat poke fun at them still? I don't think they're getting better at all. I see you're trying to make a shipper point. I'm sorry but I can't bite.

Let me rephrase, saying that Ron likes Hermione for shallow reasons is like saying that Eloise Midgeon's nose isn't off center.

EDITED to add: Clearly, there is a large distinction between Ron and Harry's feelings towards Hermione.

Yeah, the distinction is that Ron may have more than friendly feelings for Hermione and Harry doesn't.

Fabiana
September 5th, 2003, 1:57 am
Hi everyone,

I’ll try to do this as quickly as I can – I had a pretty rough day… can’t wait to see my bed...

First, tree guardian – Thanks! I also love your posts… But I’m actually not that sweet….

And thanks for you too viktorija_hp. I agree with you, they’re young for dating, but… since there are only more two books to go, I think it’s about time we saw some action…

As a matter of fact, I believe it will happen in book 7. I don’t know if it’s only me, but I think that JKR left a clue about pairings when Sirius said in Ootp that Lily and James actually started dating just in the seventh year. I mean, I think her message was something like: “a stranger could never say that they would ever date before the 7th year, but they have been in love for all the time…”. Doesn't this remind you a guy with a scar and a bushy haired girl?! Hmm, maybe it’s just my sleepy and H/Hr biased mind…

Daveydee, thanks for your hospitality.
I’m not really this first time poster…I suppose you didn’t read the end of the previous thread… I was quite active. And I’m from Portkey as a matter of fact. But don't take me for granted, I'm not that emotional all the time, and I actually enjoy *discussing*...:evil:


Mad-I Moody

I think you are quite right to base your feelings about who will fall in love with whom on personal experience. It is difficult, if not impossible, to see completely objectively without being influenced by past experiences and personal opinions. In is because of that, actually, that I have to disagree with you here. I think many girls, myself included, see something of Hermione in themselves. And I can speak from personal experience saying that opposites do indeed attract, and can often create a beautiful balance between different personalities. It just depends on the person.

I agree that depends on the person, but if we’re talking about Hermione and Ron, I don’t think this would apply. From my personal experience, I could say that the most important ingredient for an opposites relationship to be successful is RESPECT and ADMIRATION. Despite R/H great friendship, I think they really lack respect sometimes. Remember the horrible things he told her in the Yule Ball. IMHO, she didn’t deserve to listen that. And she also wasn’t respectful towards him all the time… remember her sarcasm with the “Ho-ho” in Ootp…

Talking about admiration… it could definitely be better between both of them. I mean, Ron telling Hermione how he admires her just to copy her homework isn’t the most romantic thing… and Hermione trying to escape from the Quidditch celebration… not really the fan-girl behavior I suppose Ron would cherish...

God, I'm sleepy... let me go now. Have a good night everybody!

Fabiana

Ecthelion
September 5th, 2003, 2:03 am
Ron is learning more and more things about Hermione as they grow older together (and with Harry of course) and I feel that this will lead to Hermione either scaring away Ron and/or Harry as far as romanticism goes or bringing them closer.

Naturally :)

Anything revealed to someone that is significant and may directly involve them is going to set a variety of choices to them. Either they embrace it, or the repel it....it's their choice.

Obviously, JK knows this being the thorough writer she is, but I also think that whomever Harry/or Ron falls in love with will be in a situation that forstalls certain circumstances that may lead up to a rather trivial relationship.

Also:
Very good point, I would even go so far as to say that Ron admires the fact that Hermione can put up with the (although not exactly constant) negative comments made toward her lineage (the mudblood stuff mostly).

and...

Ron is learning more and more things about Hermione as they grow older together (and with Harry of course)

Hmm. I'm not sure that Ron, as of now, is insightful enough to notice that...because in his treatment of her it shows no proof that he respects her for the fact she gets through what she does. The fact that she is smart, he obviously notices, and respects.....but he also takes advantage of it as well. I'm not saying that he'll never get to the point where he truelly understands her or whatnot....but I'm saying that it may take a while. As Mad-I says, he's learning more about her day after day and at one point in time....fully understand her.

Actually, understanding and respecting hermione is both boys' problem that desperately needs to be breached in order for their friendship, and romances to come to life. It should be fully entertaining when they do :)

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 2:04 am
But Ron wasn't too keen on Hermione standing up for other people now is he?Who do you mean by other people (the only thing that I can think of is Ron not supporting S.P.E.W. as much as he could be he did join, even if it was because they were friends)?

wow, Ron sounds really shallow, but then again, looks are really important to Ron I wasn't really calling him shallow, I was just saying that looks are a major factor in his choices for who he has crushes on (which I don't think that you can deny is at least part of his reasons for who he likes....ex: Fleur).

Hermione has to "doll up" in order for Ron to respect and admire her? Wow he sure had a funny way in showing it when he blew up at her after the ball. On the other hand, Harry recognizes and admires Hermione's intelligence regardless of how Hermione looks. Clearly, there is a large distinction between Ron and Harry's feelings towards Hermione. There is a very large distinction and I think that the way that they handle Hermione's new look is the key to it all, I just think that we are interpretting it differently. I wasn't saying that Hermione had to "doll up" in order for Ron to respect and admire her, I was saying that (to quote from my post) "it took seeing Hermione all 'girled up' for Ron to realize his other feelings for her," kind of an 'oh ****' moment.....I never realized that I like her.

Earendil
September 5th, 2003, 2:06 am
Okay, here's a few. "But you got 320 percent". I can't remember the exact number and I'm paraphrasing, but I know that he said this to her back on the train when she said she was going to turn in her time turner and give up muggle studies. "Don't worry about it" (Ron to Harry I think) "remember, she got 112 percent on one of her exams" I don't know the exact quote but this was right when Hermione was going to take her charms owl and was looking nervous. Ron said this to Harry. Now Hermione took that exam in first year. Ron's a pretty forgetful guy. Why would he, of all people, remember such small facts about Hermione?

I consider a compliment to be a positive statement conveying admiration, free of the negative connotation of "you're always one-upping me". I could count the number of compliments Ron has given Hermione on one hand, and each one of those includes the aforementioned negative connotation.

When Ron draws attention to Hermione's academic skills, it is inevitably in the context of "I need you to help me with this" or "you always brag and make me look ten times dumber" or "you try too hard at schoolwork". I have yet to see him refer to her as "brilliant", or any other positive adjectives free of the negative connotation in the context of each of his statements regarding her intelligence.

The point of this incessant rambling is that Ron appears to have severe spotlight issues, and he is threatened by the fact that Hermione knocks him hollow in terms of schoolwork. Rather than compliment her on the one thing she excels at, he teases her for being swotty or berates her for bragging (and well he should, but that's not the point here), or uses her for his own means.

Fairydust
September 5th, 2003, 2:15 am
What I was trying to get at Earendil, was that Ron admires her work and her brains and whatnot. I don't see him admiring her test scores because he thinks she's one upping him or anything. And didn't he say something about her smarts or her brilliance when she told him she'd help. This was after he got the letter from Percy. And she looked at him oddly.

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 2:18 am
Ron appears to have severe spotlight issues, and he is threatened by the fact that Hermione knocks him hollow in terms of schoolwork I attribure this to his older brothers and his continuing "younger brother syndrome."

When Ron draws attention to Hermione's academic skills, it is inevitably in the context of "I need you to help me with this" or "you always brag and make me look ten times dumber" or "you try too hard at schoolwork". I have yet to see him refer to her as "brilliant", or any other positive adjectives free of the negative connotation in the context of each of his statements regarding her intelligence I disagree with this....doesn't Ron call Hermione "Bloody Brilliant" or something....Also, those quotes where you feel that Ron is saying that Hermione has to be one upping Ron, I feel that I could make a valid argument that he is simply impressed. Like with the 105% or whatever thing, didn't Ron bring it up rather that Hermione, I don't think that Ron would bring it up if it was a sore spot for him.

Ecthelion
September 5th, 2003, 2:26 am
What I was trying to get at Earendil, was that Ron admires her work and her brains and whatnot. I don't see him admiring her test scores because he thinks she's one upping him or anything. And didn't he say something about her smarts or her brilliance when she told him she'd help. This was after he got the letter from Percy. And she looked at him oddly.

Hope you don't mind answering another person's designated message :)

The situation in which Ron got Percy's letter was highly unusual. Which in turn, yielded unusual consequences. The fact that she had looked at him oddly was a mixture of emotions that was flowing through her at the moment. Beforehand, he had been the typical person whom she finds annoying at times. However, he had gotton an extremely ignorant letter from his brother, that ultimately, hurt Ron quite deeply with its contents.

Hermione being the exceptional person she is at reading emotions easily discerned what was racking Ron's body so thoroughly and immediately sought to remedy it. Coincidentely, homework provided the solution....which then produced the rather exasperated reply's of "thank you" from Ron.

I don't think that it's in question that Ron admires Hermione's intelligence....it's the fact that he takes advantage of it is what is so irksome.

Fairydust
September 5th, 2003, 2:29 am
Ok, got ya. :agree:

ana_banana
September 5th, 2003, 2:35 am
First of all, some of this things some of you say....I don't think it's put like that on the book......Ron and Hermione have their own way of communicating, I thought everyone would have that figured out by now, and if you haven't noticed, Ron says that because he likes her and respects her and doesn't want her to know....thats why he says those comments.

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 2:41 am
I thought everyone would have that figured out by now, and if you haven't noticed, Ron says that because he likes her and respects her and doesn't want her to know....thats why he says those comments. Exactly.....

Buttercup
September 5th, 2003, 2:47 am
It seems to me that alot of people judge Ron by his idiot behavior in book 4. However I felt that in book 5 he made strides in his maturity level. He tried to be there for Harry and not to argue with Hermione so much. That shows to me that in book 4 Ron had his 'breakdown' so to speak and is finally getting over his insecurities. This can only help him if he wants to have a relationship with Hermione and also help him with Harry and supporting him in Harry's battles. I also feel that this new maturity will help him deal with everything if H/Hr do get together.

To me the biggest negative thing for R/Hr happening is the lack of interest that Hermione shows to him. She doesn't to me give any indication of liking of liking him (or Harry too for that matter). I really don't think that at right now in the books Hermione likes either one. Ron is still a little too immature and Harry has issues and grief to deal with. That is why that I think she is being very cautious on how she treats either of the boys.

I am so sorry if I mispelled any words I don't have my glasses on and I am guessing on what I am typing.

Cheers to all and good night.

Buttercup

ana_banana
September 5th, 2003, 2:48 am
But Hermione DOES show signs!!! If she didn'0t she'd simply ignore every comment Ron does...believe me ive been there.

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 2:50 am
It seems to me that alot of people judge Ron by his idiot behavior in book 4. However I felt that in book 5 he made strides in his maturity level. He tried to be there for Harry and not to argue with Hermione so much. That shows to me that in book 4 Ron had his 'breakdown' so to speak and is finally getting over his insecurities. This can only help him if he wants to have a relationship with Hermione and also help him with Harry and supporting him in Harry's battles. I also feel that this new maturity will help him deal with everything if H/Hr do get together.

To me the biggest negative thing for R/Hr happening is the lack of interest that Hermione shows to him. She doesn't to me give any indication of liking of liking him (or Harry too for that matter). I really don't think that at right now in the books Hermione likes either one. Ron is still a little too immature and Harry has issues and grief to deal with. That is why that I think she is being very cautious on how she treats either of the boys.
I agree.....I have centered my arguments on Book 4 too much, but that is because I center most of my argument on the so called "Yule Brawl" and I feel that there is quite a bit of substance in those few pages.

But Hermione DOES show signs!!! If she didn'0t she'd simply ignore every comment Ron does...believe me ive been there. She could be "ignoring" them either because she doens't understand that Ron likes her (which is understandable because clearly not everone here, including me, is completely conviced that this is the case) or she is simply being friendly about it and talking to Ron when he makes "questionable" moves towards her.

By the way, congrats on 2nd year (100 posts)....I bet I am the first person to say that.....maybe not.

Buttercup
September 5th, 2003, 2:58 am
Ok Ana Banana (cute name by the way) what exactly do you mean by responding or not ignoring Ron's comments? I am trying to understand. Give me your interpretation of some of her responses.

Of course I can't think of any specific converstations right now, my mind is totally blank.

Whenever R/Hr argue her responses are usually a defense, and to me that doesn't show that she likes him.

In other times I can't recall any kind of flirty kind of response to him but please tell me if you saw it.

I don't really ship R/Hr but I want to look at everything from both sides and if you see something from Hermione as an indication of feelings for Ron please tell me.

As I am typing this I really don't want to sound like I am putting you on the spot or picking on you because I am not and I don't mean to sound like that. I just want to know because I am curious.

So if any R/Hr shippers have something to show Hermione's feelings please also jump in. I am always looking for something I have missed.

Cheers

ana_banana
September 5th, 2003, 3:03 am
Well, my mind is kinda blank to think of specific convos too, but ill do my best.
The way she acts around Ron, the yule ball, the jealousy and the dislike to any girl that shows interest in ron or viceversa (like fleur or luna) .
Im not a huge h/hr shipper but ive always seen it like that....And thats what JK has hinted.....
Also....I HADNT NOTICED IM IN SECOND YEAR!! lol *dances* lol. And thanks for the name thing and the second year congrats lol.
So thats my point of view, thats how i interpret things...maybe im wrong but i need to argue on my pov, as we all do ;)

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 3:05 am
Of course I can't think of any specific converstations right now, my mind is totally blank.

Whenever R/Hr argue her responses are usually a defense, and to me that doesn't show that she likes him.

In other times I can't recall any kind of flirty kind of response to him but please tell me if you saw it.
I agree....

There once was a girl named eloise
She had a large nose if you please
She liked a boy named Ron
Who had a broken wand
She kissed him and made him weak in the knees Your signature makes me think that we should be thinking in another direction....anyone want to make a R/E ship???

On a more serious note, Hermione doesn't really show feelings for Harry necessarily either (I am sure there are some shippers who would like to prove me wrong, and they can go right ahead) and since dating has to be mutual, there needs to be changes on Hermoine's side for any relationship to start.

the dislike to any girl that shows interest in ron or viceversa (like fleur or luna) .This is going to sound like a rather biased statement, but I view Hermione as a protective friend when it comes to Ron's love interests and this is simply an example (or examples) of this.

Ecthelion
September 5th, 2003, 3:11 am
But Hermione DOES show signs!!! If she didn'0t she'd simply ignore every comment Ron does...believe me ive been there.

Hermione does give signs in those situations....signs of aggitation. :shrug:

If Hermione ever did show signs of affection towards Ron....I don't think that these are the type of situations in which you'd want to derive them from. I'm not sure they hold much potential for that particular aspect.

I'm not being detrimental here....it's just my immediate and non-shipping view of the matter :)

Fairydust
September 5th, 2003, 3:17 am
Though Ecthelion's an H/H shipper I'm going to have to agree for the most part with his post #108.

Anyhoo, Ecthelion, where do you find those funny avatars? They're quite funny.

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 3:23 am
Hermione does give signs in those situations....signs of aggitation I also agree, plus to go along with what you said, even if Hermoine does react in a certain way towards Ron, you also have to remember (as I said above) that dating, or getting closer to dating, is a two way street and even if Hermione reacts funny when Ron makes certain comments, there are almost no examples where she instigates flirting or anything like that in the direction of Ron or Harry for that matter.

GilyAnn
September 5th, 2003, 3:28 am
I don't think that it's in question that Ron admires Hermione's intelligence....it's the fact that he takes advantage of it is what is so irksome.

And Harry doesn't? :huh: Harry does the same 'taken advantage' of Hermione and he says less complements about it than Ron. He looks for her to help him learn a charm, he let's her outline his schedule (she also does this to Ron), he lets her check on his homework, let's her take notes so he then can copy them and he let's her do hours of reasearch in the library for the first task to then complaint that it was boring.

Also in OoP Hermione was 'backing away', 'on the verge of tears' or simply being bother by Harry's attitude. So how is it difference from Ron's behaviour? Harry is 10 times meaner to Hermione and he expresses his annoyance towards Hermione. I'm not saying any diference. BTW I have personal opinion on this but it's different than this one, I'm basing this on Cannon.

Harry clearly also takes advantage of Hermione. If who takes advantage of Hermione is a reason for desqualification both Ron and Harry are out of the game.

Gily Ann

Ecthelion
September 5th, 2003, 3:29 am
Though Ecthelion's an H/H shipper I'm going to have to agree for the most part with his post #108.

Anyhoo, Ecthelion, where do you find those funny avatars? They're quite funny.

Ahh Thanks Fairydust :)

And regarding to the sig's and avatars.....when not posting or in otherwords.... occupied with reality (lol) I take pleasure in gathering photographs or pictures on a designated topic and editing/creating them on photoshop. This particular sig I found highly intriguing so decided to use it!

Oh! And just wait....I've got a whole line of them ready for when the spoiler policy's out :eyebrows: :evil:

Grace Granger
September 5th, 2003, 3:35 am
I SHIP H/Hr and that's that. Occasionally, N/G and Remus/Tonks.

Fairydust
September 5th, 2003, 3:38 am
Got ya. ;)

Back to shipping. Anyhoo, I'm sorry if this may sound redundant and all that but I just wanted to see if anyone else thinks of this as foreshadowing.

"Talking of Michael and Ginny, what about Cho and you?"

Now I know that may seem a lot but look at the way the names are placed. In the end of OotP we had Michael and Cho switching partners to each other. Leaving Harry and Ginny (possibly) alone. Michael + Ginny, Cho + Harry= Michael + Cho, Ginny + Harry.

That's one idea. The other is Ginny catching the snitch right under Cho's nose. It was right in her grasp and she lost it. Just like Harry was in her grasp and she lost him. Could it be that Cho did not only lose the game to Ginny but she probably lose Harry to Ginny, too?

One more idea. The name of Corner. Michael Corner. I think the name says it all. Jk wrote Michael to be the one to help Ginny get over Harry. (possibly) Coulkd it be that his name, "Corner" was a foreshadowing thingy. As in Ginny turned the corner and gave up her crush yada yada yada.

I know these topics have probably been raised before but I haven't encountered them on the previous two or three threads since I came on the love thread and was wondering if anyone wanted to discuss this.

Anyhoo, I hope this post makes sense.

Ecthelion
September 5th, 2003, 3:38 am
And Harry doesn't? Harry does the same 'taken advantage' of Hermione and he says less complements about it than Ron. He looks for her to help him learn a charm, he let's her outline his schedule (she also does this to Ron), he lets her check on his homework, let's her take notes so he then can copy them and he let's her do hours of reasearch in the library for the first task to then complaint that it was boring.

Harry clearly also takes advantage of Hermione. If who takes advantage of Hermione is a reason for desqualification both Ron and Harry are out of the game.

Whoa! Please, Gilyann, that's the kind of response that got this thread closed so many times....I never said that Harry was innocent of such actions which in fact, I know he isn't, so do try not to be so assuming...The topic was at the moment designated towards Ron and I answered accordingly. I was by no means trying to single him out and push Harry up front.

Thank you :)

GilyAnn
September 5th, 2003, 3:41 am
Whoa! Please, Gilyann, that's the kind of response that got this thread closed so many times....I never said that Harry was innocent of such actions which in fact, I know he isn't, so do try not to be so assuming...The topic was at the moment designated towards Ron and I answered accordingly. I was by no means trying to single him out and push Harry up front.

Thank you :)

I see, but I see no difference between Harry and Ron on this matter. Why is Ron's attitude wrong? Is Harry's attitude right?

Gily Ann

Prongs, Sr.
September 5th, 2003, 4:05 am
Grace Granger:

I SHIP H/Hr and that's that. Occasionally, N/G and Remus/Tonks.

I ship Remus and Tonks, too ! I love that couple. Remus needs a light-hearted, fun girlfriend and I think Tonks is perfect and she's an auror, so behind her clumsiness, she's a talented witch! A fifteen year or so age difference isn't that bad for adults.

tree guardian
September 5th, 2003, 4:08 am
If the development is "hidden", which seems to be a popular theme....WHY? What possible literary motivation would an author have to do that? What possible effect would that author hope to have on her readers?

Thanks for writing! Have a wonderful day!

BlackKnight86

Personally that is a good question, BlackKnight86. :agree:

I did think it obvious, then.
Because I did think, from Philosopher's Stone Hermione and Ron were most likely to get together, when I first began to read the series. And I was totally cool with it then. I did think Harry and Ginny would be getting together and I was totally cool with it then. I even thought the possiblitiy of Neville and Hermione getting together would be nice.

then = before OotP and/or maybe by right after GoF.

However, none of these ship possibilites are hidden. As an advant reader and writer myself, those pairings were obvious from jump street. The "opposites do attract" image jumped into my head from the begining reguarding R/Hr. Their bickering and "classic" jock meets brains pairing seemed to shout off the pages. (Does anyone remember Save by the Bell's Slater and Jessi pairing?

I am sorry to those who hate what I am about to say, and I know people hate it because they never comment on it, ever. But, Ginny's red hair jumped out at me after I read the Mirror of Erised, and I am being seriously honest. WHy? No, I was not thinking about any complexes of the sort at that time some years ago, but it is a well known and I even believe tested tendency that children are drawn to physical and personality similarites of their parents when coupling, whether one knew one's real parents or not. Personally, with no deliberation I thought it would be quite natural if H/G got together. After CoS I was convinced that I was soon to see some H/G developement at least by the end of GoF.

I really didn't think Harry and Hermione were likely, though I did notice the "moment" near the end of PS on the chess board. Though at the time I was advantly convinced of R/Hr and dismissed it figuring Hermione's an emotional chick, someone in the trio had to have that kind of heart. (Even now, though it would make for good foreshadowing, I lean toward that particular scene it was just an honest friendship, and that (honest friendship bit) is part of the materials that fuel my H/Hr ship.)

So, to me it was painfully obvious and I had no problems then.

But then I finished reading GoF, and I found myself disturbed. Nothing seemed to be right. I wasn't disturbed about Harry and Cho, I was trying to feel optimistic, though I wondered about "what happened to Ginny"? Cho seemed like an ok gal, and I figured she'd be an interesting character to learn about. Personally in GoF I thought Harry had a nice plate of options, I still wasn't considering Hermione for an option, though I think Susan Bones may have slipped into my thoughts somewhere...

Anyroad, like I said I was disturbed, nothing seemed right...Ron and Hermione did seem to be making headway, but only in the wake of what I was summing up to be a disturbing behavior trend. By the end of GoF, even though I thought the "Yule Brawl" had sealed the deal of R/Hr, that didn't make me happy. At this point, I thought, "but R/Hr seems to where JKR is going, so why do I feel something is seriously amiss?" Well I think it was some of the following:

1.) Ron was real harsh with Hermione in not only public but in front of peers and professors at an important event and there was no appology. They simply didn't talk about it. coupled with Even with married couples that behavior causes major damage. It is slightly disturbing to think JKR would support such a relationship, if she were to couple them. (Bickering parents suck-garbage, especially when the children come of smarts they can tell which parent is in the wrong, for whatever reason. The parents know this. Their just caught up. Yes it can be quite sad.)

As great as this may have seemed to fans of Jane Austin, as ideal romance development, for today's kids and future reading generations, I don't think I could take it.

2.) Is it all Ron? Nope. I thought Hermione's treatment of Ron, speaking of her respect level reguarding Ron, over all up until the end of GoF did not speak volumes and nothing seemed to be getting better on a non-superficial level, only worse. coupled with The dude (Ron) has got to get respect from his girl, ya know what I'm sayin'. I will not have Ron be some whipped schlep. I know Author and his wife get on well, but they've been married awhile and have most likely overcome (perhaps) some issues privately. This does go back to the "complex" of Hermione mirroring Mrs. Weasly too well, but I really don't want to think about that, yet it does say much to a writer and study of novel and screen relationships of all kind.

Do such jealous and bickering relationships cause suspense? Yes they can. Well Jane Austin books did seem so, but only because it was obvious to the reader who should be with who, not because the obvious pairing (the pairings that first jumped out to the reader as possibilites) were "mysteries". Though Jane Austin did a real good job at throwing other pairing possibilties that seemed quite suitable and hopeful as well.

Hem-hem....

And though I tried to be optimistic about Cho, I was wondering about Ginny. Her seeming displeased reaction to the announcement that Harry had asked Cho (and been denied) to me was telling. But then he goes on to as Paravti and we as readers don't get a reaction from Ginny. So I had to question what was the real reason Ginny had such a reaction? Was it because she thought Cho had just missed the greatest opportunity of her life or because Harry was available and she (Ginny) blew it by settling. Even now I'm convinced of the latter but I dunno what that says considerig Ginny in OotP, she isn't settling for anything so what gives.

Okay I'm tired of writing so what is my point?

My point is it seemed obvious then, from the beginings so what would be the point of JKR trying to hide developement, to the point it is practically non-exsitant? The effect any future developement in R/Hr and H/G would be "about time," but without all the good relationship-developement-drama Jane Austin was good at, and a bad taste in my mouth. There are too many gaps in the action and decent romantic relationship development.

JKR has her work cut out for her without the romance issue of secondary characters not in direct relation to Harry. Meaning R/Hr and Ginny, Luna, and Neville. Ginny's "romactic debut" reguarding Harry could yet happen, but it would leave a sour taste, because it's something unccesarily left to the "last" minute, when she could have easily developed H/G ages ago. I really don't understand the lack of relationship envolving Harry and Ginny, even though yes, Ginny seems to have been set up to continue her "comebacK" into Book 6 with the possiblity of her spending more with Harry due to Quidditch and the DA group. Oh yeah and Ron's approval. But with all that said, where is the "climax" the "tension" the "suspense" the AnYtHiNG!

Love and emotion seem to be a major theme of the HP series and to have Harry end up coupled with such disparging (to reduce in esteem or rank) relationship seems pointless, and better left unwritten.

:sigh: I feel drained. (maybe I'm just freezing, the air is on way too high.)

Okay I have more to say on the matter, but I know I should take a break.

So Ciao, and now I have to read probably 3 more pages of posts cause it's taken me so long to write this one.

:lol:

Ecthelion
September 5th, 2003, 4:13 am
I see but I see no difference between Harry and Ron on this matter. Why is Ron's attitude wrong? Is Harry's attitude right?

Gily Ann

No, it isn't, by any means. But I will venture to say that Harry's wrong attitude is much more pacified and less snappish then Ron's which sometimes come off as rude. However, this is probably due to the fact that Harry is quite mature for his age while Ron is only catching up.

Regardless, Hermione knows of both boy's blatent disrespect

Anyhoo, I hope this post makes sense.

It does :tu: And that makes me sad as I am an H/hr shipper :( lol...Anyways, I'll stick true to my ship and respond with some answers to those scarily plausible theories tomorrow. As for now...it's a bit late.

Night!

tree guardian
September 5th, 2003, 4:20 am
I think Ron's so-called jealousy has to do largely with Krum. The fact that Krum is an international quidditch star really makes a difference. Ron has been going out of his way to get Krum's autograph in the beginning (and he even swallowed his "pride" to get Krum's signiture in the end.) Anyway, the fact is, Ron wasn't at all jealous when he heard that Neville asked Hermione. He thought it was comical, so we can safely assume that Ron doesn't have a crush on Hermione prior to the Yule Ball.
~Polaris :D

I have to agree with you. The way Ron's romantic jealousy just seemed to "all the sudden" appear never seemed to fit. I keep having hard time trying to find the right words reguarding this, but right before I read your post that's exactly what I was thinking. Honestly.

I feel somewhat relieved that the words were said.

:)

Prongs, Sr.
September 5th, 2003, 4:25 am
JKR has her work cut out for her without the romance issue of secondary characters not in direct relation to Harry. Meaning R/Hr and Ginny, Luna, and Neville. Ginny's "romactic debut" reguarding Harry could yet happen, but it would leave a sour taste, because it's something unccesarily left to the "last" minute, when she could have easily developed H/G ages ago. I really don't understand the lack of relationship envolving Harry and Ginny, even though yes, Ginny seems to have been set up to continue her "comebacK" into Book 6 with the possiblity of her spending more with Harry due to Quidditch and the DA group. Oh yeah and Ron's approval. But with all that said, where is the "climax" the "tension" the "suspense" the AnYtHiNG!

I think JKR has plenty of time to write an H/G romance and make it believable and real. She has set the foundation by developing Ginny's personality, interests, friends and family background. I don't see H/G as a romance as lacking tension and problems. There is an important obstacle that JKR has set up,namely Harry's believing that Ginny is over him.

GilyAnn
September 5th, 2003, 4:32 am
1.) Ron was real harsh with Hermione in not only public but in front of peers and professors at an important event and there was no appology. They simply didn't talk about it. coupled with Even with married couples that behavior causes major damage. It is slightly disturbing to think JKR would support such a relationship, if she were to couple them. (Bickering parents suck-garbage, especially when the children come of smarts they can tell which parent is in the wrong, for whatever reason. The parents know this. Their just caught up. Yes it can be quite sad.)

As great as this may have seemed to fans of Jane Austin, as ideal romance development, for today's kids and future reading generations, I don't think I could take it.

Sorry that I get in the middle but Jane Austing is my new favorite topic and I wanted to add my two cents. I like the bickering part in Ron and Hermione. I don't like it in Emma and Mr. knitwley. I think it's silly. The diference is the age. Both Ron and Hermione are teenagers on the contrary in Emma this were adults. I think the difference is very big. When You are a teenager you have a million excuses to be the way you are hormones, jealousy insecurities etc... When your an adult there is very little you can do.

Do such jealous and bickering relationships cause suspense? Yes they can. Well Jane Austin books did seem so, but only because it was obvious to the reader who should be with who, not because the obvious pairing (the pairings that first jumped out to the reader as possibilites) were "mysteries". Though Jane Austin did a real good job at throwing other pairing possibilties that seemed quite suitable and hopeful as well.

Question: And Ron and Hermione are not 'obvious' to some readers? Some people enyoy it simply because they know why they behave that way. It was very obvious to *me* from my first reading that both Emma and Mr. knitwley had feelings for each other.

JKR has her work cut out for her without the romance issue of secondary characters not in direct relation to Harry. Meaning R/Hr and Ginny, Luna, and Neville. Ginny's "romactic debut" reguarding Harry could yet happen, but it would leave a sour taste, because it's something unccesarily left to the "last" minute, when she could have easily developed H/G ages ago. I really don't understand the lack of relationship envolving Harry and Ginny, even though yes, Ginny seems to have been set up to continue her "comebacK" into Book 6 with the possiblity of her spending more with Harry due to Quidditch and the DA group. Oh yeah and Ron's approval. But with all that said, where is the "climax" the "tension" the "suspense" the AnYtHiNG!

Question: First You'll see I know JKR had a good reason. Also I wanted to point out that many here have claimed that first relantionships never last. Which we have clearly seen. They were too young etc... So why have Ginny and Harry so early? Also why does it need to have tension between H/G. Can jkr set up two diferent types of romance on different outlines? I mean wouldn't it be boring if H/G would developed the same way that R/Hr did?

And though I tried to be optimistic about Cho, I was wondering about Ginny. Her seeming displeased reaction to the announcement that Harry had asked Cho (and been denied) to me was telling. But then he goes on to as Paravti and we as readers don't get a reaction from Ginny. So I had to question what was the real reason Ginny had such a reaction? Was it because she thought Cho had just missed the greatest opportunity of her life or because Harry was available and she (Ginny) blew it by settling. Even now I'm convinced of the latter but I dunno what that says considerig Ginny in OotP, she isn't settling for anything so what gives.

Just a small comment here. Ginny had to loosen up around Harry. It's her huge dissapointment of Harry being in 'love' with someone else. What provokes Ginny to give up on Harry. If Harry ever falls for Ginny he will have to sweat for her. Many readers said that the minute that Harry expressed his desire to be with Ginny she would be at his feet. Well now we clearly see she isn't going to. Now if Harry wants Ginny he will have to earn her and languish in love just like Ginny did. Which makes it to me very interesting.

Gily Ann

Edit:

No, it isn't, by any means. But I will venture to say that Harry's wrong attitude is much more pacified and less snappish then Ron's which sometimes come off as rude. However, this is probably due to the fact that Harry is quite mature for his age while Ron is only catching up.

Regardless, Hermione knows of both boy's blatent disrespect

Yes I agree that Hermione know of both boy's disrepect. But I don't know about the part about Harry being more mature. I just think Harry doesn't ask because he used to not to ask people for help. Harry is a very proud person not to mention his abused child issues. I have always though that Harry lets Ron asks and then use it also. I see it more about an issue of personality more than maturity.

ana_banana
September 5th, 2003, 4:36 am
I agree and disagree at the same time. I don't have time or energy to argue about R/Hr, because it seems pretty obvious to me, without having to spalsh clues all over the place. But that is how JK works, with clues, even though some don't notice.
I think there has been a lot of development for H/G, maybe you haven't noticed. Of course it wasn't as fast as it could have been, but it would be totally unreal to have Harry falling for Ginny at that time, and Harry has a lot of feelings we haven't yet discovered.
Most of the story is on Harry's POV so Harry notices Ginny's smile fade, and when he asks Parvati Ginny is just not paying attention. Certain things are not being shown so we won't see Harry's reaction to them and im not necessarily talking about Harry asking Parvati....If Ginny's smiled faded with Harry's Cho comment, it was because she knew what was going to happen...
There's some things that are also happenning, leaving clues all over the way and I can't post them all here, but if you read a post-Ootp H/G essay you'd notice.
And I'm dropping from R/Hr and H/G, I know lol but...oh well.
Ron liked Hermione WAY before the Yule Ball. And Hermione's way too secretive. She never tells Harry anything at all.....and remember, just because Harry doesn't see it, it doesn't mean its not happenning.

haycheng
September 5th, 2003, 5:12 am
Harry doesn't see it, it doesn't mean its not happenning.

This generally happen only in a bad fanfic. A writter has to hint ever moment, espeically something as big as this. To say it happens behind Harry back without any hint, is a insult to JKR IMHO. She is better than that. As for how you can see R/Hr love each other, I do not know as I can not read mind.

noddwyd
September 5th, 2003, 5:17 am
I originally posted part of this in the death thread, but it actually has
some relevance to this discussion as well, and I've added onto it, so...

death, despair, redemption, love, and humanity (and not neccessarily in

that order)

I think it would be bad for the overall theme of the story if Harry died.
It just leaves you with a feeling of hopelessness, if he could never really
'live' in this life, and had to go on to the next just to find happiness. I can see it happening, though, and we would have the theme of sacrifice come full circle, whereas his mother gave his life for him, so will he give up his life for his friends, and for his world. But it's It's just as Lupin
said, "Your parents gave their lives to keep you alive, Harry." Granted, he was talking about gambling it for a bag of magic tricks from Zonko's, but still, it's the same for both cases, they didn't give up their lives just
so he could die without ever really getting the chance to live, as they
did, as everyone should have the chance to do. And he hasn't. Voldemort will always keep him from the life he could lead until one of them is dead. I do not think another martyr or Christ-like figure is what we, the readers, need, or want to see here.

The power that drove Voldemort from his body, the one that has saved Harry from death each time, and the one that Dumbledore says will eventually be the end of Voldemort, is derived from Harry's humanity, or the abilities of empathy, compassion, and love, although the first two could actually fall under the banner of love. In OotP, Harry is hurt pretty badly by the death of his godfather, and Dumbledore tells him that the pain he feels is there because of the living power of humanity coursing through his veins. Love.

The thing that worries me though, is I'm not sure he's going to have that power anymore. I mean, right after Dumbledore said that, Harry answered with 'then I don't want to be human anymore!' He has been wounded pretty badly, and he's not just going to bounce back from that and be his old self again, no way. It hurts when you care, and so he may not want to care anymore, and just become indifferent to everything. Indifferent. As in the opposite of Love. As in giving up the only advantage he has over Voldemort. Not exactly a good thing. But it's already happening. He said himself that he felt like he was in another universe from the one where Sirius was still alive, and he did't care when he heard that Cho had started going out with someone else. He had lost the capacity to feel anything like he had before, (the backflips in his stomach, etc.) so several of the things he cared about before are nothing to him now. He is no longer willing to risk the pain it could cause. He is slowly but surely giving up the only hope for his future, as well as the future of the wizarding world. He is also starting to isolate himself from other people, giving us the lake scene, and him not
going to the feast, although some good came of that in the form of Luna, and he was able to feel compasion for her. But mostly, like with Hagrid, he was avoiding the pain, which is a sure way for his wound to leave an ugly scar that may never go away.

I can understand all this, and why he's doing it, and I have no room to
criticize him about it, myself. But he will surely die and the wizarding
world will fall, if he continues in this way. You see, there are very few
differences between Harry Potter and Tom Riddle, and the largest
difference, and the one that matters the most, is slowly becoming something they have in common. An inability to love, due to all the beatings their hearts had taken over the years. Well, your heart is just like any other part of you, it adapts to its environment in order to survive. It gets harder, and tougher, until you can no longer feel it when you are beaten down, and the blade can no longer pierce it. What was once flesh, is become stone. The house that once had a roaring fire in the grate, and a feast on the table, and doors open to all, now has become a cold, empty place, where no one can enter.

And I do admit that, even if Harry does die in the end, his parents' sacrifice will not have been entirely pointless. He has survived for the past fifteen years, even if he doesn't exactly have the life they would have wanted for him. He still has had a life, where people have cared for him and tried to give him happiness, Dumbledore even admits doing this for him against his better judgement.

But whether or not he lives or dies, wins or loses, to me, comes down to
himself and what he chooses to do. And right now, he is choosing to walk down a dark and empty street alone. He is taking the easy way out, to avoid his pain over Sirius, and to avoid feeling the same pain again over others. The same path Tom Riddle took many many years ago, although Tom was probably younger when he made this descision, most likely for his own survival.

I don't know how or why Harry would come back to the light after being
burned by it. He's getting distant from everybody, he's even lost the
degree of closeness he had within the trio. Can somebody call him back? I'm not so sure. It would take some time, and some love, and probably a higher level of trust. But in the end it's his choice, it is an internal struggle, and I'm not sure he will realize the ramifications of that choice until it's too late, and he may, sadly, lose other loved ones in the process of discovering his mistake.

I believe JKR said that any romance in the book wouldn't be anything too 'gritty', and would be more 'light-hearted', right? Now what she means by that I'm not certain, but my assumptions would be no angst ridden stuff, which I think is unavoidable right now if Harry gets involved in the romance parts of the book. There's a wall he has erected, even if it isn't a very strong one yet, but it definitely protected him from getting upset in any way over Cho. Walls like this can be hard to get past, especially if it is given the chance to fortify itself over time. Right now it's like a barrier made from sandbags. Over time it could upgrade to wire fence, to brick wall, and all the way up to an impregnable fortress, like the one that houses Tom at this point. (I am reminded strongly of Orthanc.) It probably wouldn't be very 'lighthearted' in any case, at least not at first. And for some reason when I think 'light-hearted' I get more the image of kids playing and not anything like real love. This worries me quite a bit. In fact, it leads me to think either Harry's pain and suffering post-Sirius will be downplayed, and he'll be just like new (yeah right) in the next book, ready to have some fun, or Harry will just not be involved romantically with anyone. Given the choice, I personally would choose the second option. I really don't like seeing stuff like that unless it really means something. But what I really want to see, and what I think would make for a more powerful theme/plotline/message/whatever. is Harry looking down over the edge of that precipice of darkness, of despair and hatred and destruction, and thinking, 'maybe it's not so far down after all' and almost falling, but love (coming from somewhere he never expected) calls him back at the last moment, the power that saved him in the past is restored to him tenfold, and he finally realizes he's been going about this the wrong way the whole time. It's Venus, not Mars, love, and not war, creation, and not destruction.

Now who will be the one that redeems him and saves him from himself I leave open to interpretation, if you even buy any of this at all, that is.


This also ties in with many of my other ideas and theories about Harry's
power (love), the room in the DoM that is always locked, Luna and her
mother, Harry's parents, Lily, in particular, and a few other things, but
I'll post on that later, probably.

tree guardian
September 5th, 2003, 5:21 am
Question: First You'll see I know JKR had a good reason. Also I wanted to point out that many here have claimed that first relantionships never last. Which we have clearly seen. They were too young etc... So why have Ginny and Harry so early? Also why does it need to have tension between H/G. Can jkr set up two diferent types of romance on different outlines? I mean wouldn't it be boring if H/G would developed the same way that R/Hr did?

By all that quote "tension" and all, I meant interesting developement. I don't mean fighting. Oh God no, I don't mean that. There isn't alot of room for much developement for a strong relationship, as I said in my first post on this thread. The decent beginings of a relationship but nothing much. I am not saying JKR isn't a capable writer. I think she is, and in the end I'm sure I will see her reasons for whatever happen, but I don't now see those reasons for H/G.

And by "she could have developed an H/G relationship ages ago" I don't mean romantic, I am refering to any kind of relationship beyond the near nonexistant kind. Thus far Ginny has been like a sister to Harry. It would be a natural developement if Harry were to date his best friend's sister, but heart pattering interesting?, my goodness no.--not at this point for me, not even close. (I would say, worth reading, but if JKR writes it, I'll read it, even if it's a bit like torture.)

I know of the clues you refer to ana_banana, you can post them, but think I've gotten the gist of them from threads 1, 2, 3, and 4. Also I have in the past posted such "clues" as support for H/G and R/Hr. Those clues don't ease my dread of a lacking romance sub-plot in the next two books.

Hmm, Harry languishing in love for Ginny is great, if it makes him happy, but for the reader, me in particular, it's like "::nod:: okay, more of Harry languishing, let's skip to something I don't already know is going to happen.--something that moves the main plot of along. This subplot was written three years ago."

I don't view H/Hr as obvious in anyway. I never saw Hermione as the type for being labeled the "girl" the hero, gets. I think that would be insulting to Hermione. And besides that, Harry doesn't seem "the hero" type. JKR doesn't write Harry that way. The hero title seems to be developing into a collective thing; a role taken on by many people. No one fights a war by themself, not in the HP series at least. Everyone on the side of good is a hero or heroine (sp?).

Would H/Hr interest me? yes, because it is building on some great deep friendship developement which has to this point been an unspoken or hidden developement. Not much (or nothing) is said on either Harry or Hermione's part or anyone elses part for that matter. I think there is much "hidden" here and much mystery. Whether it be romantic or not is not really my concern. It is deep and will always be deeper and more meaningful than anything that could happen between H/G in the series.

Edit:

Great post noddwyd! :p Very cool.

Loverly. :)

Polaris15
September 5th, 2003, 6:50 am
All right I'm back. Back to the issue.

[[Okay, here's a few. "But you got 320 percent". I can't remember the exact number and I'm paraphrasing, but I know that he said this to her back on the train when she said she was going to turn in her time turner and give up muggle studies. "Don't worry about it" (Ron to Harry I think) "remember, she got 112 percent on one of her exams" I don't know the exact quote but this was right when Hermione was going to take her charms owl and was looking nervous. Ron said this to Harry. Now Hermione took that exam in first year. Ron's a pretty forgetful guy. Why would he, of all people, remember such small facts about Hermione?]]
What you have pointed out are instances where Ron states Hermione's test scores. They're facts, not opinions. Ron never explicitly displayed any admiration towards Hermione's intelligence.

[[For one thing, Hermione would probably never slap Ron or anyone that was her friend]]
Yes she would, if he "complained" about her appearance. Hermione tends to be very rash when she's angry.

[[Funny, you didn't put the rest of my quote]]

I only agreed with that particular part.


[[Let me rephrase, saying that Ron likes Hermione for shallow reasons is like saying that Eloise Midgeon's nose isn't off center.]]

Comparing Ron's "feelings" for Hermione to someone's nose is pretty shallow in itself.

[[Yeah, the distinction is that Ron may have more than friendly feelings for Hermione and Harry doesn't.]]

Depends on your definition of friendly; actually, but if you follow the denotation, Ron is no comp.

posted by Mad I
[[Who do you mean by other people (the only thing that I can think of is Ron not supporting S.P.E.W. as much as he could be he did join, even if it was because they were friends)?]]

I was talking about defending Hagrid to Rita Skeeter; Ron wasn't too keen on the idea was he? Harry and Hermione seemed to think differently.


[["it took seeing Hermione all 'girled up' for Ron to realize his other feelings for her," kind of an 'oh ****' moment.....I never realized that I like her.]]

Hermione had to "girl up" in order for Ron to realize his feelings? Admit it, that sounds very superficial.

evaluna
September 5th, 2003, 7:05 am
The Heart of the Series: Harry's POV and Why Love [and Death] is Central

Pun intended re: heart.

Welcome all [~muchos saludos a todos, including Narami!] and welcome back to the many returning shippers and travellers on the love thread! It’s good to be back, for certain! Just a few comments in passing…



Tree Guardian
I really don't understand the lack of relationship envolving Harry and Ginny, even though yes, Ginny seems to have been set up to continue her "comebacK" into Book 6 with the possiblity of her spending more with Harry due to Quidditch and the DA group. Oh yeah and Ron's approval. But with all that said, where is the "climax" the "tension" the "suspense" the AnYtHiNG!

Love and emotion seem to be a major theme of the HP series and to have Harry end up coupled with such disparging (to reduce in esteem or rank) relationship seems pointless, and better left unwritten.

Agreed.. If the topic is not given a place of central importance in canon vis-à-vis the ultimate outcome, then I’d rather JKR skip it entirely re: Harry. IMO superficiality of any sort, in particular re: emotion, does not suit Harry and post-Sirius, canon reinforces this further. The down side is that this greatly increases the likelihood of Harry’s sacrificial death, which I also feel detracts from the message that universal love, or the Infinite Light, borne by a living Harry, will conquer and perhaps even redeem Voldemort/Tom. That is, I personally think if Harry sacrifices himself in death, then Darkness reigns and Voldemort gains his ultimate victory…just MO. But even still, if JKR doesn’t give love an ultimate and central place in canon with regard to Harry, then my hopes for the ending don’t hang together anyway, at which point bring on the blood and guts and let Harry go down in flames.

And further...


noddwyd
But, and I don't remember what the exact quote was, but I think JKR said that any romance in the book wouldn't be anything too 'gritty', and would be more 'light-hearted'. Now what she means by that I'm not sure, but my assumptions would be no angst ridden stuff, which I think is unavoidable right now if Harry gets involved in the romance parts of the book.
---------
In OotP, Harry is hurt pretty badly by the death of his godfather, and Dumbledore tells him that the pain he feels is there because of the living power of humanity coursing through his veins. Love. The thing that worries me though, is I'm not sure he's going to have that power anymore. He has been wounded pretty badly, and he's not just going to bounce back from that and be his old self again, no way. It hurts when you care, and so he may not want to care anymore, and just become indifferent to everything. Indifferent. As in the opposite of Love. As in giving up the only advantage he has over Tom. He is slowly but surely giving up the only hope for his future, as well as the future of the wizarding world. He is also starting to isolate himself from other people, giving us the lake scene, and him not going to the feast, although some good came of that in the form of Luna, and he was able to feel compasion for her. But mostly, like with Hagrid, he was avoiding the pain, which is a sure way for his wound to leave an ugly scar that may never go away.
---------
I can understand all this, and why he's doing it, and I have no room to
criticize him about it, myself. But he will surely die and the wizarding
world will fall, if he continues in this way. You see, there are very few
differences between Harry Potter and Tom Riddle, and the largest
difference, and the one that matters the most, is slowly becoming something they have in common. An inability to love, due to all the beatings their hearts had taken over the years.


noddwyd, let me just say that I think this post in its entirety is one of the best treatments of the subject from Harry's POV that I've read on any thread, and I really hope JKR doesn't trivialise or play down the importance of either death or love [as that which creates and sustains life]. Some comments...

Re: “gritty” quote, I very much hoped JKR meant nothing too explicit, but that in no way was she going to play down the darker aspects of life with which other things such as love must coexist. So help me, if Harry isn’t ridden with angst after two deaths in a one-year span, one being very close to him and no ‘real’ family to speak of, then I am living in a wholly different universe than JKR and will be at a total loss as to how to relate to the series. Otherwise, it’s as if Harry has lost all [or most] humanity and that’s tragic. IMO if JKR plays Harry as all fixed up, then he has already gone over the precipice, unawares.

Re: “light-hearted” and “romance”, I’m still hoping that applies to other [secondary or esp. more shallow] characters but not to Harry, for whom I [like you] am hoping for something much more profound. Otherwise, I agree that there is little point and that JKR should rather not bother to pair Harry up at all, and instead have Harry tap into an understanding of universal love and its power of light over darkness by some other means unknown as yet. Per canon, luckily it seems quite unlikely that Harry will have further shallow relationships post-Sirius. And IMO Harry is not built to approach issues or persons in a superficial manner, so further of these would simply suck his energy, disturb his centre, and draw him from the light and toward his personal darkness [despair, depression].

The entire shallow Cho relationship thus seemed very out of character for Harry, unless two mitigating factors are considered [aside from prior existence of crush]: Harry hadn’t dealt [not really] with Cedric’s death, and/or he already loved Hermoine but was not aware [it’s possible] and hadn’t dealt there, either. Either or both would guarantee that Harry was not really emotionally available for anything real. The whole sublimation process you mention really gearing up at OoP’s end [Harry being in total denial of his pain] then might really have started at GoF’s end and just never been resolved. Cho had a point in that Harry hadn’t dealt with Cedric, and Harry missed an opportunity to resolve something critical. It seems that Cho is not the one who can help Harry, but with Sirius’s death as well Harry will drown in those depths without support and guidance in facing his pain. Dumbledore has always championed this approach but unfortunately cannot be there day-in, which is what Harry really needs.

noddwyd
It probably wouldn't be very lighthearted. For some reason when I think 'light-hearted' I get more the image of kids playing and not anything like real love. This worries me quite a bit. In fact, it leads me to think either this will be downplayed, and he'll be just like new (yeah right) in the next book, ready to have some fun, or Harry will just not be involved romantically with anyone. Given the choice, I personally would choose the second option. I really don't like seeing stuff like that unless it really means something, which is why I disliked the entire Cho story arc. But what I really want to see, is Harry looking down over the edge of that precipice, and thinking, 'maybe it's not so far down after all' and almost falling, but love (coming from somewhere he never expected) calls him back at the last moment, his 'power' is restored to him tenfold, and he realizes he'd been going about this the wrong way the whole time. (It's Venus, not Mars, stupid!)

Agree with the entire bit. Per bolded part, oh yeah, definitely. Encapsulating the meaning of life: Omnia vincit amor, especially darkness and despair, which can be overcome by no other means. Otherwise known as That which can scale the Misty Mountains and breach the [eventually unbreachable] tower of Orthanc, AKA [Tom/] Harry ?

And IMO there are primarily three persons who will seek to give [and may succeed in giving] Harry comfort and keep him from falling: Hermione, Luna, and Lupin, [though I don't discuss Lupin in detail here]. As noddwyd mentioned previously on the last thread, Luna already has given him comfort, and Hermione for her part attempted to comfort Harry on several occasions . And, among other things, it was pointed out that Hermione was the one to pull Harry away from the DoM Veil. And of course, Lupin made clear he would be amongst those monitoring Harry's situation over holiday...

[b]Luna is great, isn’t she? I for one found the scene at the end of the book between the two one of the most moving in the series, right up there with the Mirror in PS. She puts aside her pain about her mother’s death to talk with Harry and comfort him, whilst he then ends up doing the same re: Sirius’s death to try and help her in the moment. Harry is able to break through his walls, or rather Luna is able to help him do so, at which point Harry realises that he is still capable of connection and compassion. That he is still alive, still human in the best sense. One brief trip to the edge of the precipice averted, more yet to come [I hope]. Wouldn’t it be great for Harry if they could have some rap sessions over holiday, as she seems to me a spiritual mentor or counselor of sorts?

And Hermione did seem to understand better Harry’s unspoken need for connection after she faced death. Probably my third favourite moment in the series was Harry willing Hermione back to life from the brink of death in the DoM with his touch, for I really think that’s what occurred and that’s why Neville was then able to find a pulse. This scene underscores the reason I ship H/Hr, because Harry already seems to feel a deep and abiding unexamined love for her. I really don’t care much for Ron’s character these days and less so if he continues to draw Hermione from Harry in his hour of need. Yes, I think it is significant that Hermione pulled Harry from the veil. She is definitely his protector and now is the time for Hermione to break out her blue flame of protection, for certain. Harry needs her over break as well. Of course, the only one on which we can likely depend with certainty is Lupin, as he made clear he would be amongst those monitoring Harry's situation over holiday...

But regardless of the ship I favour, I don’t want to see the subject of death and accompanying despair and darkness downplayed at the expense of any love storyline or even for love as overarching theme [one in which I truly believe], precisely because I feel it detracts from love as the overarching theme. That is, how is love in the form of the Infinite Light supposed to save Harry from darkness and instruct him in saving the world [overcoming external darkness] if there is no darkness? As noddwyd said, yeah right…So let’s hope for a worthy struggle on both fronts, the internal and external.

I had another post entirely in response to a few things from the first pages but put aside to post this, so I'll be back later...
Cheers till then!

Polaris15
September 5th, 2003, 7:05 am
[[I think JKR has plenty of time to write an H/G romance and make it believable and real. She has set the foundation by developing Ginny's personality, interests, friends and family background. I don't see H/G as a romance as lacking tension and problems. There is an important obstacle that JKR has set up,namely Harry's believing that Ginny is over him.]]

The thing is though, we found out Ginny's characteristics through other people. She isn't really "developed", just mentioned. As far as Ginny being over Harry, you have no proof to say that she isn't.

[[The diference is the age. Both Ron and Hermione are teenagers on the contrary in Emma this were adults. I think the difference is very big. When You are a teenager you have a million excuses to be the way you are hormones, jealousy insecurities etc... When your an adult there is very little you can do.]]

Ron and Hermione will grow old someday. What if their personalities still remain the same? What if they still bicker? Wouldn't you call that a bad combination?

[[Can jkr set up two diferent types of romance on different outlines? I mean wouldn't it be boring if H/G would developed the same way that R/Hr did?]]

There are thousands of ways to write romance. Chucking a character out of the first four books is not one of them.

[[Many readers said that the minute that Harry expressed his desire to be with Ginny she would be at his feet. Well now we clearly see she isn't going to.]]

He might never express the desire to be with Ginny.

[[Now if Harry wants Ginny he will have to earn her and languish in love just like Ginny did. Which makes it to me very interesting.]]

You mean Harry would have to send her singing valentines, annoying get-well cards and stick his elbow in a butter bowl? *lol*

Daveydee
September 5th, 2003, 8:23 am
Completely agree :agree: However, this stands against R/Hr. It makes me wonder whether Ron truly "likes" Hermione. Prior to Yule Ball, we see that he doesn't admire Hermione in anyway. He asks her as a last resort to the ball and didn't believe her when she said that she had already been asked. Then Hermione shows up dazzeling with an internationally famous quidditch star. I don't blame him for being jealous; he should be jealous, but pity that it took dress-robes and 10 gallons of sleaky-sleezy hair potion for Ron to become jealous. JK purposefully wrote it this way to make the reader wonder whether Ron's crush on Hermione is real or superficial and merely based on her looks. And since we agree on the fact that Ron's "crush" started after the Yule Ball, it is perfectly logical that Ron's crush is based solely on physcial appearance and is about as deep as a puddle on a sunny day.
Sorry - I just had to come back on this one, because within this little scene lies a significant message.

There is Hermione with her dress robes and '10 gallons' of hair potion looking dazzling indeed. But it patently is not this which makes Ron realise his feelings. He alone pays no attention to this whatsoever - the text is quite clear on that. Which is rather strange really because prior to this point we assume fairly enough that Ron indeed has a weakness for eye candy. At the very least, one would have expected a raised eyebrow from Ron. Nothing.

Why? Because he's already noticed Hermione as a girl, the night before in the common room. And the beauty of it is that, in the end, it didn't take dress robes and hair potion for that to happen. That is the moment which defines Ron's feelings for Hermione, and one which belies his supposed shallowness, as the immediate subsequent scene demonstrates.

Lord - Thingy
September 5th, 2003, 10:48 am
Wow, five pages already.... great posts everyone.

I agree that Harry will walk on the edge of despair from now on, the question is: Who will make him walk away from the edge? Ginny? Hermione? Luna? my money is on Hermione.

By the way evaluna, since I have abandoned my pirate ways (I set the Queen Anne's Sandwich on fire and saw it getting lost in the horizon) I was wondering if I could join the HMS Harmony, given that you are a high rank auror there I was hoping you could help me get aboard and handle all the paperwork MEM seems to love so much for me.

You still have that free booze policy right?

GilyAnn
September 5th, 2003, 12:04 pm
Tree Guardian:
By all that quote "tension" and all, I meant interesting developement. I don't mean fighting. Oh God no, I don't mean that. There isn't alot of room for much developement for a strong relationship, as I said in my first post on this thread. The decent beginings of a relationship but nothing much. I am not saying JKR isn't a capable writer. I think she is, and in the end I'm sure I will see her reasons for whatever happen, but I don't now see those reasons for H/G.

And by "she could have developed an H/G relationship ages ago" I don't mean romantic, I am refering to any kind of relationship beyond the near nonexistant kind. Thus far Ginny has been like a sister to Harry. It would be a natural developement if Harry were to date his best friend's sister, but heart pattering interesting?, my goodness no.--not at this point for me, not even close. (I would say, worth reading, but if JKR writes it, I'll read it, even if it's a bit like torture.

I see what you mean. But I have a few questions. When does Harry acknoledges that Ginny is like a sister to him? Because all the time Harry is clear that Ginny is Ron's sister. Because the fact that he acknowledges that is Ron's sister first it's true but it doesn't mean that he sees her like his own sister. I think that was one of the reasons for JKR to keep them appart. Keeping them away from each other so they won't develop those feelings and I see it IMHO that it has worked. I see as a positive thing that JKR kept appart Ginny and Harry all this time. Until it was the right time. Ginny needed to grow up and so did Harry, Ginny needed to deal with her experience on the chamber, they needed some time appart to be themselves to then get toguether. They needed to be on their own and grow up an be themselves to then be a couple.

Hmm, Harry languishing in love for Ginny is great, if it makes him happy, but for the reader, me in particular, it's like "::nod:: okay, more of Harry languishing, let's skip to something I don't already know is going to happen.--something that moves the main plot of along. This subplot was written three years ago."

Ohh! it's a shame you don't like it. I think it's hilarious. Besides this languishin would be diferent because Ginny won't be like Cho. Ginny is already close to Harry. This would be a different kind of languishing. Remember that with Cho Harry never spoke to her with Ginny he not only speaks to her but it's friends with her. It makes it harder to stand. :evil: Besides I assume it would be for a short time.


Would H/Hr interest me? yes, because it is building on some great deep friendship developement which has to this point been an unspoken or hidden developement. Not much (or nothing) is said on either Harry or Hermione's part or anyone elses part for that matter. I think there is much "hidden" here and much mystery. Whether it be romantic or not is not really my concern. It is deep and will always be deeper and more meaningful than anything that could happen between H/G in the series.

I disagree. Harry has clearly expressed that Hermione is her friend and denied to sickness that she isn't his girlfriend and Hermione classified Rita Stories (including the first one) as 'ridiculous', neither showed (IMHO) any signs of liking each other. So what is this relationship based on? That they have a great friendship? That doesn't sound good to me. One of the reasons I don't like R/Hr is because I would really prefer if the trio would stay friends. So far in 5 books Ron and Hermione both have showed(IMHO) signs that they have more than friendship feelings for each other. But H/Hr hasn't. Harry is not dissapointed that Hermione is still writting to Krum or that she went with Krum to the Yule Ball (he doesn't has to show explosive jealousy to show it), Harry is not dueling on how much Hermione has change; in fact if Ron wouldn't have notice the teeth thing, Would Harry have? I don't think so. Harry doesn't look at Hermione 'in a whole new light'. Harry in book 5 was extremelly annoyed with Hermione. He seem to be hiding from her and avoiding her, he at one points thinks that he wants to shake her. I failed to see how Harry has romantic feelings towards Hermione if he is annoyed to her on this level. I know that some people think they do but I just failed to see it.

Polaris15

The thing is though, we found out Ginny's characteristics through other people. She isn't really "developed", just mentioned. As far as Ginny being over Harry, you have no proof to say that she isn't.

Actually we didn't. We found out from Harry. The only thing we found out about Ginny from someone else it was that she has boyfriend and that how she got to play Quidditch. We found that Ginny was a good at lying because Harry so it. We found that Ginny was spunky because Harry saw it, we saw that Ginny didn't have a problem standing up to Harry, we saw that Ginny can sit down and listen to someone when they are depressed. What we saw of Ginny Harry saw it. He saw her playing Quidditch the only thing that we didn't see was Ginny on a romantic scene with Michael Corner.

Ron and Hermione will grow old someday. What if their personalities still remain the same? What if they still bicker? Wouldn't you call that a bad combination?

We saw in book 5 that Ron and Hermione bickering diminish a whole lot. So as time pass by (which it something I always assumed) the bickering will subside and shift towards something more. So I don't think that their relationship will be the same 20 years from now.

There are thousands of ways to write romance. Chucking a character out of the first four books is not one of them.

I would have agree if Ginny wouldn't have been at ALL in the first 4 books. But the problems is that Ginny has been in all books and in all have had somehow Character development. In Each book we saw something different about Ginny.

He might never express the desire to be with Ginny.

He might never express the desire to be with Hermione either. JKR could bring in a new character and pair him up with her or get him toguether with Cho.

You mean Harry would have to send her singing valentines, annoying get-well cards and stick his elbow in a butter bowl? *lol*

Funny there is a fanfic written about Harry putting his elbow in the butter dish. I think Harry earning Ginny it classifies as nothing gritty and funny.

Eva Luna
And IMO there are primarily three persons who will seek to give [and may succeed in giving] Harry comfort and keep him from falling: Hermione, Luna, and Lupin, [though I don't discuss Lupin in detail here]. As noddwyd mentioned previously, Luna already has given him comfort, and Hermione for her part attempted to comfort Harry on several occasions [but Ron kept preventing it]. And, among other things, it was pointed out that Hermione was the one to pull Harry away from the DoM Veil. And of course, Lupin made clear he would be amongst those monitoring Harry's situation over holiday...

You see I don't see either Luna or Hermione being the ones to comfort Harry. I don't see Ron either. Fact is that Hermione was really harsh with Sirius in book 5. She critiziced him without any consideration of Harry's feelings and that IMHO was a bad thing. Sirius meant a lot to Harry. Hermione knew this, yet she was critizing him left and right. It seemed that Hermione had suddenly developed a problem with Sirius. If Harry really would have wanted to talk to Ron and Hermione he would have done so before the end. The fact that he didn't is one of the things that clearly says to me that next book the trio will begin to separate.

Gily Ann

evaluna
September 5th, 2003, 2:14 pm
Lord Thingy
By the way evaluna, since I have abandoned my pirate ways (I set the Queen Anne's Sandwich on fire and saw it getting lost in the horizon) I was wondering if I could join the HMS Harmony, given that you are a high rank auror there I was hoping you could help me get aboard and handle all the paperwork MEM seems to love so much for me.

You still have that free booze policy right?


Lord Thingy Let me offer you a hearty 'Welcome aboard!' from the Harmony. Good to have you. I'm dropping off your paperwork as we speak -- lucky for you it's not full moon currently! As last go round, I accidentally ate Perdita & Ecthelion's Unspeakable apps whilst in my altered state [see Buckbeak's sig for further clarification]. So anyway no worries! You're good :)

Re: beverages, you are correct! MEM indulges us, but mind you order only the top end stuff [expense to Mike ;)]. Nothing shoddy allowed in the cabinet else it gets binned whilst back is turned :lol:
Cheers!

v@sh
September 5th, 2003, 3:05 pm
This short post is a little off the topic at the moment, but I would like to hear the responses of R/Hr or H/G shippers since these two pairs would be paired together if it happened. Since that R/Hr believe JKR's quotes, the one regarding at the time of GoF that everyone is in love with the wrong person. So the situation in GoF goes as from a R/Hr pov (I think):

- R > F (so that means R > Hr)
- H > C(so that means H > G or H > Hr)
- G > N (so that means G > H)
- Hr > Kr (so that means either Hr > R or Hr > H)

but to me it seems like:

- R > Hr (since lots of R/Hr shippers say that this is the book most in canon of the relationship, if R/Hr shippers still think its R > F I can't see this be because he was influenced the Veela in F)
- H > C (we found out that this doesn't work out so the quote is true)
- G > H (later we find out that Ginny has given up on Harry so that is true as well)
- Hr > Kr (so Hermione can be with either Ron or Harry)

Anyway to the question, does any R/Hr or H/G actually think the one Ron likes in GoF (Hermione) is the wrong person? If R/Hr shippers say that it isn't the wrong person, yet maintain that most of canon evidence of both of them liking each other i.e. Hermione reciprocating these feelings etc. through their bickering then that just contradicts their own views on the R/Hr relationship and this not reading the book in canon to a less bias interpretation.

noddwyd
September 5th, 2003, 3:50 pm
You see I don't see either Luna or Hermione being the ones to comfort Harry. I don't see Ron either. Fact is that Hermione was really harsh with Sirius in book 5. She critiziced him without any consideration of Harry's feelings and that IMHO was a bad thing. Sirius meant a lot to Harry. Hermione knew this, yet she was critizing him left and right. It seemed that Hermione had suddenly developed a problem with Sirius. If Harry really would have wanted to talk to Ron and Hermione he would have done so before the end. The fact that he didn't is one of the things that clearly says to me that next book the trio will begin to separate.

actually she has already tried to talk with him about it and comfort him. But Ron kept shushing her.

Mad-I Moody
September 5th, 2003, 5:16 pm
Anyway to the question, does any R/Hr or H/G actually think the one Ron likes in GoF (Hermione) is the wrong person? If R/Hr shippers say that it isn't the wrong person, yet maintain that most of canon evidence of both of them liking each other i.e. Hermione reciprocating these feelings etc. through their bickering then that just contradicts their own views on the R/Hr relationship and this not reading the book in canon to a less bias interpretation.


As I've said before, the one Ron is "after" in GoF -- the one he outwardly, knowingly "likes" is Fleur. IMO, he doesn't begin to realize his feeling for Hermione until OotP, which makes sense, since JKR said that Ron doesn't realize what is going on between him and Hermione in GoF. Fluer is the "wrong person" in GoF for Ron.

Buttercup
September 5th, 2003, 5:25 pm
Thank you Ana Banana for trying to answer my questons about whether Hermiones responses show an interest in Ron. But I have to say that I am still frustrated because I am not seeing it. I really do want to but for now I am still of the opinion that Hermione doesn't have romantic feelings for Ron.

quote:
Ron and Hermione will grow old someday. What if their personalities still remain the same? What if they still bicker? Wouldn't you call that a bad combination

Actually based on their behavior in GoF I would cringe if they got together but after OoTP I see more hope for them as a couple. Ron is maturing and Hermione is relaxing a bit. I can see them growing and maturing so I would hazard a guess to say that they wouldn't bicker as much if got together. I also agree with Gilyann's response to that.

As far as what lovely lady will comfort Harry. The only one so far who has made a dent in his grief is Luna. She can share with him because she knows what it is like to lose a parent unlike Hermione or Ginny.

Now Hermione is Harry's best friend and as that Harry never doubts she will help him and that can be a comfort too.

Ginny is a little more complicated. She isn't that close to him and I think that because of that she doesn't seek him out as shown by what happened at Xmas. She or Ron didn't say anything to Harry until Hermione got there (another way Hermione can comfort Harry, she isn't afraid to confront him). But later Ginny did take the initiative to speak to Harry (the library when she encouraged him to talk to Cho and when she tried to help when Harry was trying to speak to Sirius the second time from Umbridge's office). I think she is getting a little more bold in her trying to help Harry with at least doing something physical in a way of support versus emotional support.

So what I am trying to get to is that these ladies all can support Harry but in different ways. I am sure that in future books we will see these ladies in different aspects and might be able to get a more enlightened view of how they help Harry.

Also to Ana Banana again, I did get your post on the last page about the Harry/Cho, Michael/Ginny thing. I also thought that it was odd the way that played out in the books.

Cheers.

Buttercup

haycheng
September 5th, 2003, 5:36 pm
interesting May I Moody
IMHO, Ron is not very clear who he is interested in GOF. It could go either way. There is evident to point to either female. I always consider Ron's feeling toward Fleur is more idol worship, and the feeling toward Hermione as crush.

The idea that Ron realize his feeling toward Hermione in OFTP is unsound IMHO. There is not much information to show Ron's crush in OFTP. The one and only thing I can think of is jealous of Krum's letter. Can you point me to further evident?
Thank You.
Best wish to newcomers. Also the newcomers may want to check out the vb code. There is a specific function to quote. It will be easier for us to read if you use more vb code function.

FlyingPhoenix
September 5th, 2003, 5:50 pm
Five?! Thats much.

Before I start could someone PM me and tell me what did happen with thread four because It seems to be deleted.

Anyway I think this thread seems to be more formal that say I don't say my theory or my thinking is like your thinking or something whats only right because I believe in. I do think it will be H/Hr in canon and it will start in book6. So I'm right in this thread and not wrong. Just to your information I did read a lot novels, a lot philosopical theorys about love by platon and hiddegger and some interesting life expierince.

To this novels belongs "Emma" by Jane Austen (Mad-I, I disagree Knightley and Emma don't bicker this two debatte thats different IMO)
To this I came later back.

Before this I want to write about Love, for your information I don't mean a special kind of love if I write love I mean all kind of love not only romantic love, in this case about "Can a 16 year old fall in love?"
I say yes and not only a small yes its a big YES. Because at this age you fall in general for the first time really in love (I mean in novels and in general not you who did fall in love with 12, 17 or older). At the first time its the most powerful thing than anything else.
Its says you falls never again that honest and freely like at the first time. Its for real not just a teenage love, its probably real and truest love you can find. Why? Because you don't know how it has to be, how a boy or girl has to be. You follow just your heart thats why its so dangerous. Its make you weak in a way you don't want be.
You don't want or search after the perfect guy or girl you just falls.
Some say today you don't fall at this age anymore. But its not true, for me is it not true today more than anyyears before you fall badly.
I do think teenagers from today more matrued as in the 80's.
Harry and his friends are from the same age as I'm and I know that you can fall in love with 16.
I don't say it last forever but who can? I mean if you fall with 28 its just the same who can say its forever? No one. Its even possible that people who know each other since 5 or 6 years and did know each other at the worst days than I'm sure it has better chance to last forever as that they meet with 23 get together with 23 and don't know how the other is at his or her worst day.

We in germany have a song what is about love its like that: The very first time it did hurt at the second time not anymore that much and the last time it wasn't word worth.

Another song or rather a line from it is that:
There's another word for love
There's another word of course
I'm just more than you can see obviously

Refrain:
I'm just more, I'm just more, I'm just more
I'm just more, I'm just more, I'm just more

Now something I did find in The mirror from the 28. August.
Exam girl dies from overdose
A Teenager killed herself hours after getting "fantastic" exam results - because her boyfriend died in a car crash.
Sally Leeder, 16 , was heartbroken she couldn't share her joy with him.....

Dear Lord let be our love strong enough forever
another note I did found on a wall from a church. You can count on it that 16 year olds can feel this kind of love what I do debatte and what about my shipmates debattes.

Nia
September 5th, 2003, 7:11 pm
My response to Mad-I Moody is a bit late. I had to get some work done. :lol:

Originally posted by me, Nia:

This kind of relationship is also common to Jane Austen's writing, one of JKR's favorite authors. Austen's primary romantic pairing is generally kept a mystery (with subtle clues tossed in along the way) until the end of the book

Mad-I Moody’s response:

I would have to argue that the R/Hr relationship is very similar to the ones we see in Austen's writing. For instance:

In Emma, Mr. Knightly and Emma bicker about some things – like when Mr. Knightly disapproves of Emma's matchmaking when Harriet refuses the proposal of Robert Martin. ("You are no friend to Harriet" or something like that).

Mr. Knightly and Emma are also jealous of each other's suitors/prospects. When Emma thinks that Mr. Knightly is doting on Jane, she is jealous. When Mr. Knightly notices Emma and Frank spending time together, he is jealous. Note, Mr. Knightly generally disapproves of Frank, so his jealousy needn't indicate right away that he has feelings for Emma. (Ron and Krum? Hermione and Fleur?)

Mr. Knightly's romantic feelings toward Emma aren't very obvious at first, though they become more apparent in the chapter where he tries to kiss her hand. It seems that he wants to tell Emma that he loves her, but he always hesitates, as if unsure of himself. (Very Ron-ish, IMO).

In Emma, much of the romance is spurred on by Emma and Mr. Knightly's respective jealousy. Emma never realizes her feelings for Mr. Knightly until she becomes jealous of Harriet, or, at least, until she realizes that Harriet confesses feelings for Mr. Knightly. Mr. Knightly also realizes his feelings for Emma due to her involvement with Frank.

In Pride and Prejudice, Elizabeth is at odds with Mr. Darcy through almost the entire book, though he has feelings for her. Elizabeth's feelings change, or are realized in light of Darcy's true actions, and they are married.



Superficially, yes, there are many similarities. I have heard other R/Hr shippers argue Emma or Pride and Prejudice as being the inspiration for this pairing.

My reasons for referring to Austen, however, are not because of the similarities in story line. Indeed, any writer of JKR’s caliber would be rather miffed, I’d think, to have someone infer that she mimicked the story of another author. My reference to Austen has to do with her romantic plotting ideologies. Austen, firstly, veils her primary romances in secrecy. We are allowed only the barest hints that anything is going on at all. [Of course it helps that the manners of the age frowned upon boisterous shows of romantic feeling between unmarried courting couples.] :)

Secondly, the primary romances in Austen are always developed over a period of time during which the two of them acquire ever increasing amounts of knowledge about each other as they grow together.

Love, Austen asserts through her wonderful stories, must be based in mutual respect and a thorough knowledge of each other. She emphasizes in Pride and Prejudice, and Emma as well as in Sense and Sensibility, that passion can blind us to reality and that infatuation is a deception. Love which develops slowly and through extended close association is the most enduring. In Austen’s world there is a definite distinction made between attraction and love. Attraction may be immediate and quite intense, but honest love takes time. Even in Persuasion, Anne Elliott and the dashing Wentworth, who were engaged, then separated for seven years, must grow together again. When Austen’s couples do come together, there is an almost spiritual bond and readers are left with the belief in the rightness of the match. I don’t see how anyone could be as big a fan of Austen as JKR and not agree with these romantic ideologies since they are the basis of her books.


I’d like to reemphasize the point about Austen’s principal couples holding a mutual respect and regard for each other and having the same value system. Even Elizabeth Bennett and Fitzwilliam Darcy, who are most cited as the parallel Ron and Hermione couple, have sincere mutual regard for each other. They have this even when they sending each other stinging barbs. Darcy is first attracted by her intellectual brilliance and her fearlessness and her independence. Used to the simpering Miss Bingley and others who make no secret of their matrimonial objectives, Elizabeth is a breath of fresh air. She is an equal. We see the same with Emma and Knightley. He admires her wit and intellect and independence. She is in every way his equal.


The big problem with Ron and Hermione is that there is no equality. There is no mutual respect and no growing together in the five books. Their minds work differently. They have very differing points of view because of their very different backgrounds. Hermione refuses to see Ron’s point of view about the house elves (and rightly so,) because it is based in centuries of prejudice and tradition. Ron refuses to acknowledge that elves are even truly sentient. Until he does, there can be no point of commonality between the two of them so they can open a viable dialog. They do not think on the same wavelength. This kind of combative pairing makes for an exciting romance story with the big coming together scene at the end, but it quite simply does not fit the Austen paradigm. On the positive side for R/Hr, JKR never said her romances were influenced by Austen. It’s just some of us lit buffs see it. ;)

Originally Posted by Me, Nia

I would be very, very disappointed if she should select such a hackneyed, predictable romantic path rather than taking 'the road less traveled.'


Mad-I Moody’s response:

It is arguable which is the "road less traveled," H/Hr or R/Hr. H/Hr is, of course, the hero-gets-the-girl scenario. R/Hr is the Han Solo and Princess Leia scenario. Both roads are pretty well traveled – in fact, they are paved and have signs and everything – so either choice will be viewed by some people as "hackneyed," IMHO. If she chooses R/Hr, people will say "It was so predictable – everyone knows that the bickering couple gets together. Haven't you seen When Harry met Sally?" If she is going the way of H/Hr, people will say "It was so predictable -- the hero always gets the girl." Or, as you put it earlier, people may think that it is an overused plot technique to keep the primary romantic pairing a big mystery until the very end.


You misunderstand me, my comments were not about the basic plot skeleton at all. I generally don’t debate which cliché is most used because views depend a great deal on how much reading has been done and what kind. And, you are right, no matter what final scenario JKR chooses, it will be labeled cliché by someone.

What I was referring to was the depth and level of spirituality of the relationship. Modern literature and other forms of entertainment media DO NOT deal with true emotional depth in romance. This is especially true of young adult literature. We generally see couples’ romantic difficulties then a big ‘getting together scene’ at the end.

We are deceived if we are duped into thinking this is what will make for a beautiful life because the big scene at the end is, in reality, only the beginning of a relationship--unless the couple already had a platonic (classical definition) history of close interaction. We are always left with the impression that the couple will live together happily for the remainder of their lives. In other words, we see eros love, (romantic, physical attraction) but we see no depth or development of their relationship.

The general consensus seems to be that couples who genuinely love each other, who can get along with each other and work together peacefully are dreadfully boring. I refer you to comments on the shipping “Death Thread” over at Fiction Alley. “Harry and Hermione are sooooo BORING,” is a comment you hear quite a bit.

The ‘road less traveled’ from my perspective—someone who does read young adult fiction literally all of the time—is a meaningful, youthful relationship that is NOT based in sniping, petty jealousies, getting him (or her) to notice how great the other is, or the superficiality of outward appearances. The world of young adult fiction sincerely needs contemporary books that feature romances based in mutual respect and deep, honest caring. In other words, agape love, (selfless love) and phillio (deep friendship.) as well as eros which has always been there. It has not been done much in children’s lit since the early 1970’s because people perceive it as corny and sentimental.

Should JKR write Ron/Hermione romance in canon, it will be so similar to so many other young adult books I’ve read. Boy likes girl, hides it behind blustering and criticism, eventually reveals his love. End of story, yadda, yadda, yadda. Should she write Harry/Ginny, it would be worse because they share no common history, no depth of understanding.


Originally posted by me:

Quite simply put, Harry is too deep and complicated an individual for a merry, youthful soul like Ginny.

Mad-I Moody's Response:
I do agree that Harry is much "deeper" than Ginny as far as we can tell. Harry is probably the deepest (young) character in the series. However, Ginny is not, to me, shallow. She is brave, caring, loyal, and helpful. Though she may not be what you call an "old soul," I don't think this means that she cannot have a relationship with one. As I've said before, I'm not a huge proponent of the H/G ship, but I certainly don't think of Ginny as someone unworthy of Harry, nor even as someone who is incompatible with him.


I stand by what I said before, Harry is too deep and complicated an individual for a merry, youthful soul like Ginny.

In the now famous 12 Grimmauld Place scene where Ginny supposedly brings Harry out of his depression. The thing that made Harry separate from the Weasley’s was his feeling that he was unclean. In CoS, Ginny expressed somewhat of the same feeling—that something was wrong with her, that she was 'unclean.' It made her reclusive and depressed. She KNOWS how that feels. Even though their experiences are very different, Harry feels unclean, she felt unclean. Yet she cannot make the connection. Her remarks to Harry are superficial—an uncomplicated young person’s remarks. I would have been so very impressed if Ginny had made a remark along those lines. As it stands, she dismissed his possession, his feeling that HE WAS the snake with a simple “you’ve never been possessed, then.” She did not even suggest that they talk to someone about that. She is a girl, a normal fourteen year old girl and she is utterly clueless about the seriousness of the situation Harry is in. Unless she grows up real fast, she will always be incompatible with Harry.


If I were inclined, I could write a perfectly defensible Ron/Hermione shipping essay. The ship is viable and there is ample evidence to support it should JKR write it in canon. I don’t ship R/Hr, however, because my belief is that she is better than that and has something much loftier to tell us about love in all stages of human development. I think that the Harry/Hermione clues are much more telling and weighty because they don’t subscribe to the superficiality of simplistic romance but speak more of the resilience and beauty and spirituality of that classic platonic love we were all talking about a couple of threads ago.

Cheers!
Nia

Daveydee
September 5th, 2003, 7:16 pm
This short post is a little off the topic at the moment, but I would like to hear the responses of R/Hr or H/G shippers since these two pairs would be paired together if it happened. Since that R/Hr believe JKR's quotes, the one regarding at the time of GoF that everyone is in love with the wrong person. So the situation in GoF goes as from a R/Hr pov (I think):

- R > F (so that means R > Hr)
- H > C(so that means H > G or H > Hr)
- G > N (so that means G > H)
- Hr > Kr (so that means either Hr > R or Hr > H)

but to me it seems like:

- R > Hr (since lots of R/Hr shippers say that this is the book most in canon of the relationship, if R/Hr shippers still think its R > F I can't see this be because he was influenced the Veela in F)
- H > C (we found out that this doesn't work out so the quote is true)
- G > H (later we find out that Ginny has given up on Harry so that is true as well)
- Hr > Kr (so Hermione can be with either Ron or Harry)

Anyway to the question, does any R/Hr or H/G actually think the one Ron likes in GoF (Hermione) is the wrong person? If R/Hr shippers say that it isn't the wrong person, yet maintain that most of canon evidence of both of them liking each other i.e. Hermione reciprocating these feelings etc. through their bickering then that just contradicts their own views on the R/Hr relationship and this not reading the book in canon to a less bias interpretation.
Well, v@sh, I think that Fleur is the one to whom JK was referring. In any case, the exact same question could be asked of H/Hr shippers, who before OotP was released were quoting plenty of evidence from GoF in support of that ship.

haycheng
September 5th, 2003, 7:22 pm
I want to add to the arguement with H/G.

I do not know Ginny well enough. However, the boys she is dating right now appear to very different from Harry(it is arguable as we really do not know her bf much). Ginny is indeed a young soul in my eyes. (again it is arguable, I really do not know how much second year affect Ginny) Can she really ables to comfort harry? Do she really know "Harry" enough? It is a job Ron has fail. He may be Harry's best mate but he is still lack understand about Harry. The only one who seem to know Harry enough is Hermione. She may dismiss Harry's problem as small sometime and less then sensitive about Harry's feeling. However, she is still the best one to spot Harry's problem and the one stubborn/stupid enough to bother Harry.

One day, Harry may understand Hermione is the person who understands him best, ever though she can not read his mind as a book. (what the excitment of romance if you can read your partner as a book anyway!?)

Sirius83
September 5th, 2003, 7:40 pm
Well, v@sh, I think that Fleur is the one to whom JK was referring. In any case, the exact same question could be asked of H/Hr shippers, who before OotP was released were quoting plenty of evidence from GoF in support of that ship.

Hm I think the general concensus was that there was a lot of building up, alluding to a future romance, but neither of them being "in love" with the other at that point in time. What the majority of us did say was that Hermione/Krum and Harry/Cho were wrong. If you ask me, it wasn't until OOTP that Hermione probably realised her feelings for Harry. On Harry's end, there are only little clues, but I think it's enough that we'll see his realisation sometime in book 6.

Grace Granger
September 5th, 2003, 8:28 pm
Well, v@sh, I think that Fleur is the one to whom JK was referring. In any case, the exact same question could be asked of H/Hr shippers, who before OotP was released were quoting plenty of evidence from GoF in support of that ship.


Sirius83 wrote:
Hm I think the general concensus was that there was a lot of building up, alluding to a future romance, but neither of them being "in love" with the other at that point in time. What the majority of us did say was that Hermione/Krum and Harry/Cho were wrong. If you ask me, it wasn't until OOTP that Hermione probably realised her feelings for Harry. On Harry's end, there are only little clues, but I think it's enough that we'll see his realisation sometime in book 6.

I have to agree with Sirius, Daveydee, I also think that the general concensus is that there are clues leading up to a possible future romance between Harry and Hermione. I don't think HMS Harmony members have said that we do indeed think that Harry and Hermione like each other in GoF, but that JKR is subtley showing clues, symbolism and personalities and behaviors that compliment each other.

Prongs, Sr.
September 5th, 2003, 8:57 pm
Nia:

I’d like to reemphasize the point about Austen’s principal couples holding a mutual respect and regard for each other and having the same value system. Even Elizabeth Bennett and Fitzwilliam Darcy, who are most cited as the parallel Ron and Hermione couple, have sincere mutual regard for each other. They have this even when they sending each other stinging barbs. Darcy is first attracted by her intellectual brilliance and her fearlessness and her independence. Used to the simpering Miss Bingley and others who make no secret of their matrimonial objectives, Elizabeth is a breath of fresh air. She is an equal. We see the same with Emma and Knightley. He admires her wit and intellect and independence. She is in every way his equal.

I basically agree and disagree with this. Darcy does admire her wit and intellect, however, he does not think she is his "social equal", which is one of the obstacles to their forming a relationship. I do like their dynamics and see some similarities to Ron and Hermione. Also, Jane Austen does like happy, OBHWF endings to her stories, doesn't she? Especially, in P & P, two close sisters marry two close friends.

In the now famous 12 Grimmauld Place scene where Ginny supposedly brings Harry out of his depression. The thing that made Harry separate from the Weasley’s was his feeling that he was unclean. In CoS, Ginny expressed somewhat of the same feeling—that something was wrong with her, that she was 'unclean.' It made her reclusive and depressed. She KNOWS how that feels. Even though their experiences are very different, Harry feels unclean, she felt unclean. Yet she cannot make the connection. Her remarks to Harry are superficial—an uncomplicated young person’s remarks. I would have been so very impressed if Ginny had made a remark along those lines. As it stands, she dismissed his possession, his feeling that HE WAS the snake with a simple “you’ve never been possessed, then.” She did not even suggest that they talk to someone about that. She is a girl, a normal fourteen year old girl and she is utterly clueless about the seriousness of the situation Harry is in. Unless she grows up real fast, she will always be incompatible with Harry.

I disagree. She does understand what Harry is going through and she asks him, "I'm the only one who knows what it is like to be possessed by You Know Who, why didn't you ask me?" What Tom put her through was cruel form of mind control and possession. The manner in which JKR describes Harry's feeling unclean is similar to what a person who is assaulted might feel. I feel there are a lot of open questions to this storyline and a lot of questions that need to be answered.

For example, Ginny's possession is described as waking up and not knowing where she had been, etc., and this is different from Harry's possession. If this is all she can remember, why is she so affected by the Dementors? Harry recalls the memories of his parents' murder, so it's logical to assume that Ginny also recalls the memories of Tom's possession, unless their are other incidents in her life that we don't know about that were traumatic. As for talking to Harry about this, perhaps she doesn't want to talk about this in front of her brother? I suspect she may have talked to Hermione at some point, but that is pure speculation. This is a very personal issue and I imagine she wouldn't feel comfortable with Harry at this point in time, but I have a big feeling we'll see a "talk" in the future.

Mad-I Moody
September 5th, 2003, 8:59 pm
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Originally posted by Mad-I Moody

Harry, as we have discovered in OotP, is a bit...erm...dense when it comes to matters of the heart.
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Sorry, but that is not a valid explanation. Harry is not stupid; he's merely inexperienced in dating. He doesn't understand the "overly emotional Cho" for exactly that reason - because she's overly emotional! This isn't some Mars/Venus thing; if she wanted to talk to him about Cedric, she should have just come out and said it, instead of coming at him as if she were interested in him. As far as matters of the heart go, it would certainly appear that Harry does, in fact, understand his own feelings...at least as they are at the time. In addition, I would point out to you that in GoF, Harry was cognizant enough to wonder if all of the girls giggling at him and/or asking him to the Yule Ball only liked him because he was a champion. Sounds to me like he was not as dense as you might think.
I'm not sure I understand why you think my explanation is not valid. First of all, I never said Harry was stupid. I said he was dense when it came to relationships and reading romantic feelings and such. He has NO CLUE what is going on with Cho in book 5 – he doesn't even realize, until it is almost too late, that Cho blatantly put herself on the line for him to ask her on a date. Besides, I don't think that Cho was completely using Harry to get info about Cedric's death. She seemed to be a little interested in him pre-Cedric.
Harry did wonder if all the girls only liked him because he was champion. But all other times we see him confronted with relationship-y stuff, he is completely clueless. It's in OotP. Every encounter with Cho seems to be riddled with confusion. He has no idea why she's acting funny on Valentine's day when he mentions Hermione – because he doesn't understand girls being jealous. Or maybe because it wouldn't cross his mind that Cho would think of him and Hermione as anything but friends – but that is beside the point.

Oh, I forgot to mention the fact that you're contradicting your shipmate. As Daveydee clearly stated,

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Originally posted by Daveydee

I'm sure that Harry, as Ron's best buddy of many years, is perfectly aware of Ron's feelings towards Hermione.
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I don't see your point here. I don't agree with Daveydee on this particular point – I think Harry is as clueless as Ron is about Ron's feelings, especially in book 4. Harry is not intuitive about how people feel all of the time. And, in book 5, Harry has plenty of other things to be worrying about rather than to stop and think, "Hm, maybe Ron likes Hermione more than a friend – oh, but back to this Voldemort stuff."
However, just because Daveydee and I disagree on this particular point does not make either of our points incorrect. His opinion is based on his interpretation of canon, and mine is based on my interpretation of canon. Because we have no indication of Harry noticing something "going on" between Ron and Hermione, my opinion is simply that he doesn't. He has many other things on his mind, on top of which is the fact that he isn't exactly Mr. Emotion-Reader.

I'm not asking if Harry understood anything. I'm simply asking, if he was "perfectly aware", then why, in 1 1/2 years, was there no mention to Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, Sirius, SOMEONE....even a thought that the reader could see....of his awareness of those feelings.
Like I said, I don't think he IS "perfectly aware." My answer to the question about why Harry hasn't mentioned anything to anyone about Ron or Hermione's "feelings" is because he doesn't realize they are there. After all, Ron doesn't even seem to realize them – how can we expect Harry to?

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Originally posted by Mad-I Moody

He doesn't seem to understand, very well, typical boy/girl romantic interactions.
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OK, here's where we obviously operate from different frames of reference. I've taught in every grade from K-12, and I've seen no such "typical boy/girl romantic interactions". I have seen a wide range of different "interactions"; and when those "interactions" involve treating your best friend like garbage, making blatantly false accusations against her, publicly berating her for no legitimate reason, and insulting her....well, "typically", we're trained to see that as being a negative and to be prepared to intervene, if necessary.

If you all think that's "sweet".........well, there ya go.
First of all, when I said "typical boy/girl interactions" I wasn't referring specifically to the interaction between Ron and Hermione. I was speaking in general terms, in re: Harry's cognizance of feelings between people in general.

Secondly, while I have not taught every grade from K-12, I have had the pleasure of teaching a handful of 9th and 10th graders, not to mention had plenty of opportunities to interact with kids from 6 years and older. Different folks have different ways of showing that they like each other, and the little boy who pulls the little girl's pigtails is just as common as the little boy who offers the little girl half of his sandwich at lunch. One is not better or worse than the other – people just interact differently. If we all interacted with each other the same way, how dull would things be?
I don't think Ron treats Hermione or Harry like "garbage." He gets angry with them on occasion, but Harry was angry and spiteful toward his friends in book 5. It just happens sometimes, people get angry with one another. But making up and staying close friends is a strong indication that the relationship can withstand arguments. Ron made ONE false accusation about Hermione, and, while we can't see into Ron's head, we can have a little empathy and try and understand why he would say such a thing. He doesn't seem to be vindictive about it – he's sincerely angry for, IMO, one of two reasons. 1. Hermione came to the Yule Ball with Harry's opponent in the TriWizard Tournament, and Ron saw it as betrayal. 2. Hermione came to the Yule Ball with Krum, and Ron was jealous – but he doesn't realize that his feelings are jealousy, so he chalks it up to her "fraternizing with the enemy." Immature, yes, but vindictive and spiteful, I'm not so sure.
Obviously, the behavior that Ron displays toward Hermione is not so horrible – otherwise, wouldn't someone "intervene"? In OotP, Harry tells them to stop bickering with each other, he doesn't tell Ron to stop treating Hermione like garbage – because Ron ISN'T. In GoF, Harry tries to calm Ron down during the Yule Ball by saying that he doesn't mind Hermione coming with Krum, but he doesn't step in and say "Woah, mate, you're out of line here. Back up a bit, yeah?" People who are close to each other fight. When shared emotion is great, it is easier for feelings to be hurt. This can be seen between Harry and Hermione as well in OotP, when Harry is behaving so angrily toward his friends. He is hurt, he feels left out, and he lashes out. But his friends forgive him and accept him. Same with Ron. It makes me sad that some people write off Ron's character as shallow and cruel or heartless because of one fight he has in Book 4, because no one would dare write off Harry the same way when he treats his friends rudely in OotP. It's just normal behavior. Neither Harry nor Ron are horrible, heartless people. They care about their friends, and each other, and they do what they can to help each other.

Finally, I must say that many of the most memorable romances have been born out of these "bickering" relationships. As I mentioned earlier, in both Emma and Pride and Prejudice, we can see examples between (respectively) Emma and Knightly and Elizabeth and Darcy. I know I've mentioned Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy, Han Solo and Princess Leia, Rhett and Scarlett, Kate and Petruchio (Taming of the Shrew), You've Got Mail/Shop Around the Corner, Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle (My Fair Lady), Kathy and Don from Singing in the Rain, Harry and Sally (When Harry Met Sally), Hepburn and Grant in Bringing up Baby, etc.

So, apparently, someone, somewhere, thinks that the "bickering couple" works out all right. Many a romantic comedy made today highlights two people who seem unable to get along until, finally, they discover that they were meant for each other and get together in the end, and everyone goes – it's about time – and no one goes – yeah, but they were so verbally abusive of each other, don't you think they really hate each other deep down?


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Originally posted by Mad-I Moody

If Ron had a problem with Hermione going to the ball with someone else (whatever the reasons behind it may be), he should have asked her first. Harry gets that. Ron splutters sentence fragments -- He doesn't really get it
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I'm not disputing that, Mad-I. However, the attribution of romantic desire to that conclusion is weak. That could simply be a reaction by Hermione on how outrageously shallow Ron was to treat her like an "emergency date" the day before the event, after having insulted women that he did not find attractive by calling them "trolls" in front of her; THEN having the utter impertinence to get angry with her when she had made other plans. I'm not saying your conclusions are necessarily incorrect. However, if they are correct, where is the further development of their relationship? They still bicker - not gentle banter, but enough to make Harry, on 2 separate occasions in 2 books, leave their presence (the second time, he told them to shut up). After 1 1/2 years, he still hasn't apologized (I seem to recall R/Hr shippers claiming that, after the Scabbers incident, Hermione should have apologized....even though Ron was ultimately proven wrong! Sauce for the goose, as the saying goes). If the development is "hidden", which seems to be a popular theme....WHY? What possible literary motivation would an author have to do that? What possible effect would that author hope to have on her readers?

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Originally posted by Mad-I Moody

In short, Harry's lack of thought or commentary on the alleged feelings brewing between Ron and Hermione doesn't mean that they aren't there, nor does it mean that he notices them and doesn't care.
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It doesn't mean they are, either, now does it? But of course, you could say that about anything, couldn't you?

"Harry's lack of thought or commentary on fill in the blank doesn't mean that they aren't there."

That does not, of course, answer the question as to WHY it's omitted, or the purpose that it serves to the story.

I'll tell you what. I have an easy question for R/Hr shippers. What specific canon support do you have for R/Hr besides their constant fighting?
Ron admires Hermione's brains and her ability to stand up for herself, as my fellow shipmate Fairydust pointed out. I'm sorry, I don't have my books with me, but here are some examples I can think of. Ron remembers the exact percentage Hermione got on a charms exam. He looks at her admiringly when she spouts off what Dumbledore said at the end of 4th year and asks her how she remembers. Ron looks at Hermione, awestruck, when she slaps Malfoy – and he admires her when she goes to get the Invisibility cloak out of the witch's hump.
Hermione is so glad to have stopped fighting with Ron in PoA that she throws her arms around him and starts to cry. She is so concerned over Ron after Gryffindor's defeat at Quittich in OotP that, when he enters the common room, she jumps up out of her seat. In GoF, it is Ron, not Harry, who first notices that Hermione's teeth are different.

Ron never explicitly displayed any admiration towards Hermione's intelligence.


Again, there are several instances in the books where Ron either looks at Hermione admiringly, or says something admiringly. I'll have to go through and look up specific instances, I suppose, but I know that they are there.

To this novels belongs "Emma" by Jane Austen (Mad-I, I disagree Knightley and Emma don't bicker this two debatte thats different IMO)

Knightly constantly points out Emma's flaws throughout the novel. He remarks about how unfit Harriet is as a friend to Emma, for she will only enhance Emma's flaws. Knightly and Emma have quite a row about the whole Harriet/Robert Martin issue.


The idea that Ron realize his feeling toward Hermione in OFTP is unsound IMHO. There is not much information to show Ron's crush in OFTP. The one and only thing I can think of is jealous of Krum's letter. Can you point me to further evident?
Thank You.
Well, as you say, he seems a bit jealous of Krum's letter. He also seems curious as to how Hermione knows that Harry isn't a bad kisser. He gives her perfume for Christmas (possible romantic connotations). He makes an effort to stop fighting with her. He seems to be in a bit of a stupor after Hermione kisses him on the cheek.

However, I would venture to say that all of the characters are realizing how much they mean to each other after the events of OotP. Perhaps Ron realizing his feelings for Hermione is just a part of that overall coming-to-terms thing.


Superficially, yes, there are many similarities. I have heard other R/Hr shippers argue Emma or Pride and Prejudice as being the inspiration for this pairing.

My reasons for referring to Austen, however, are not because of the similarities in story line. Indeed, any writer of JKR’s caliber would be rather miffed, I’d think, to have someone infer that she mimicked the story of another author.
Well, don't all authors mimick the stories of others? What is the old saying – good writers borrow, great writers steal? Shakespeare borrowed many a plot line.

My reference to Austen has to do with her romantic plotting ideologies. Austen, firstly, veils her primary romances in secrecy. We are allowed only the barest hints that anything is going on at all. [Of course it helps that the manners of the age frowned upon boisterous shows of romantic feeling between unmarried courting couples. ]
OK, so this can apply, quite apparently, to both H/hr and to R/Hr – these possible romances are veiled in enough mystery to keep this debate going on and on like the Energizer Bunny.

Secondly, the primary romances in Austen are always developed over a period of time during which the two of them acquire ever increasing amounts of knowledge about each other as they grow together.

Also can apply to either R/Hr or H/Hr – they are all growing together. They have had many adventures together, and have developed their friendships over a period of 5 years.


Love, Austen asserts through her wonderful stories, must be based in mutual respect and a thorough knowledge of each other.

Elizabeth doesn't respect Darcy much throughout the novel.


She emphasizes in Pride and Prejudice, and Emma as well as in Sense and Sensibility, that passion can blind us to reality and that infatuation is a deception. Love which develops slowly and through extended close association is the most enduring.
Also can apply to both couples. Ron and Hermione have had extended close association as have Harry and Hermione.


In Austen’s world there is a definite distinction made between attraction and love. Attraction may be immediate and quite intense, but honest love takes time. Even in Persuasion, Anne Elliott and the dashing Wentworth, who were engaged, then separated for seven years, must grow together again. When Austen’s couples do come together, there is an almost spiritual bond and readers are left with the belief in the rightness of the match. I don’t see how anyone could be as big a fan of Austen as JKR and not agree with these romantic ideologies—they are the basis of her books.
This is true. However, none of Austen's heroes seem to be lacking in the "looks" department. Nor do her heroines. They are attractive people. And they are attractive to one another, for a variety of reasons.


I’d like to reemphasize the point about Austen’s principal couples holding a mutual respect and regard for each other. Even Elizabeth Bennett and Fitzwilliam Darcy, who are most cited as the parallel Ron and Hermione couple, have sincere mutual regard for each other. They have this even when they sending each other stinging barbs. Darcy is first attracted by her intellectual brilliance and her fearlessness and her independence. Used to the simpering Miss Bingley and others who make no secret of their matrimonial objectives, Elizabeth is a breath of fresh air. She is an equal. We see the same with Emma and Knightley. He admires her wit and intellect and independence. She is in every way his equal.

Ron and Harry both admire Hermione's intellect and fearlessness. They both use her intellect to their advantages, as well, but that's another story. In P&P, Elizabeth doesn't have much respect for Darcy due to her first impression of him. The respect comes later in this relationship. I believe that Ron and Hermione have a sincere mutual regard for one another, even when sending each other stinging barbs. If they didn't, why remain friends for so long? Why even care what happens to the other?


The big problem with Ron and Hermione is that there is no equality. There is no mutual respect and no growing together in the five books. They have very differing points of view because of their very different backgrounds. Hermione refuses to see Ron’s point of view about the house elves (and rightly so,) because it is based in centuries of prejudice and tradition. Ron refuses to acknowledge that elves are even truly sentient. Until he does, there can be no point of commonality between the two of them so they can open a viable dialog. They do not think on the same wavelength.

First of all, there is definitely growing together in the 5 books. I mean, they spent almost the entire summer together pre-OotP. We see them trying to stop their bickering in OotP and come together.

As far as the mutual respect goes, I think that they respect each other fundamentally. They respect each other's loyalty and Ron respects Hermione's intelligence…just because people disagree does not automatically mean that they don't respect one another. Sometimes, people will voice a differing opinion out of respect, not due to lack of it.

Ron, IMO, is a good balance for Hermione's militant nature when it comes to SPEW. It is wrong of Hermione to try and trick the elves into taking the hats, and Ron calls her on that. Notice that he doesn't take the hats away, he just removes the trash on them. If he truly wanted to undermine all of Hermione's work, he'd take the hats away, too.

Hermione refuses to see the House-Elves' point of view as well. She's trying to force them into something that they don't want. If she wanted to try and educate them, maybe, but to trick them into freedom, when they don't know where to go or what to do? Ron's right – that's not on.

This kind of combative pairing makes for an exciting romance story with the big coming together scene at the end, but it quite simply does not fit the Austen paradigm. On the positive side for R/Hr, JKR never said her romances were influenced by Austen. It’s just some of us lit buffs see it.
JKR never said her romances were influenced by Austen, but I am sure that most authors will note that they are directly or indirectly influenced by their favorite authors. Austen is one of JKR's favorites, so I don't think it is a stretch to assume that she has been influenced by her. Austen has, in her novels, coupled some pretty combative (call it debate, call it sending each other stinging barbs, call it arguing) pairs in her novels, as have other authors and filmmakers who are deserving of great respect.

GilyAnn
September 5th, 2003, 9:02 pm
Anyway to the question, does any R/Hr or H/G actually think the one Ron likes in GoF (Hermione) is the wrong person? If R/Hr shippers say that it isn't the wrong person, yet maintain that most of canon evidence of both of them liking each other i.e. Hermione reciprocating these feelings etc. through their bickering then that just contradicts their own views on the R/Hr relationship and this not reading the book in canon to a less bias interpretation.

I think JKR was very clear on who the couple were. It was clear that JKR directed her response to H/C, Hr/V and R/F. Why?

Welll simply she said:

Will Ron ever get a girlfriend? I'm laughing again.... Why wouldn't he?! Though he's not doing too well at the moment, is he? But then, Fleur Delacour was really aiming a bit high.

We see that in JKR refer to Ron being 'in love' after Fleur.

She also said that:

Q: Will Harry find romance in book four?

A: He tries, but he doesn't get very far.

They're all kind of after the wrong people, as in life. Hermione gets the first date, and it's quite a cool one because I thought I owed her a bit of fun.


In here Hermione got a date and was 'in love' with Krum. In book 4 Harry was behind or was in love with Cho and Ginny was with Michael Corner or was in 'love', she also went to the ball with Neville(that would automaticly disqualified him also).

It's clear to me that what jkr meant was the relationships that were feature in GoF. If were to twist this to force it to apply to every person they were interested. Everyone would be wrong. There would be no H/Hr, H/R, H/G and so forth and the only relantionship true would be Harry and Luna. Since she wasn't feature in OoP.

To this novels belongs "Emma" by Jane Austen (Mad-I, I disagree Knightley and Emma don't bicker this two debatte thats different IMO)

I disagree so much! Knightley and Emma bicker and a lot too. They insult each other and knitghley is downright mean sometimes to Emma (not that she doesn't deserved it, BTW). In many ways they remind of Ron and Hermione, only that I like how Ron and Hermione bicker.

In the now famous 12 Grimmauld Place scene where Ginny supposedly brings Harry out of his depression. The thing that made Harry separate from the Weasley’s was his feeling that he was unclean. In CoS, Ginny expressed somewhat of the same feeling—that something was wrong with her, that she was 'unclean.' It made her reclusive and depressed. She KNOWS how that feels. Even though their experiences are very different, Harry feels unclean, she felt unclean. Yet she cannot make the connection. Her remarks to Harry are superficial—an uncomplicated young person’s remarks. I would have been so very impressed if Ginny had made a remark along those lines. As it stands, she dismissed his possession, his feeling that HE WAS the snake with a simple “you’ve never been possessed, then.” She did not even suggest that they talk to someone about that. She is a girl, a normal fourteen year old girl and she is utterly clueless about the seriousness of the situation Harry is in. Unless she grows up real fast, she will always be incompatible with Harry.

I'm confused on why would you say that Ginny hasn't grown up. Why is it that Harry needs someone that it's 'IN your face'? That irritates Harry soooo much. Ginny sat by him in the train station back to 12GP. She didn't talk to him but she clearly understood that Harry didn't feel like talking and she respected that. The fact is that they said IF there weren't sure that Harry was being posessed. Ginny did what she had to do. Tell him what it was and that sign to know for sure if he was being posessed or not. If you are waiting for a long talk about the chamber that won't happen yet as that I'm sure will play later. Book 5 is still too early.

The big problem with Ron and Hermione is that there is no equality. There is no mutual respect and no growing together in the five books. They have very differing points of view because of their very different backgrounds. Hermione refuses to see Ron’s point of view about the house elves (and rightly so,) because it is based in centuries of prejudice and tradition. Ron refuses to acknowledge that elves are even truly sentient. Until he does, there can be no point of commonality between the two of them so they can open a viable dialog. They do not think on the same wavelength. This kind of combative pairing makes for an exciting romance story with the big coming together scene at the end, but it quite simply does not fit the Austen paradigm. On the positive side for R/Hr, JKR never said her romances were influenced by Austen. It’s just some of us lit buffs see it.

Why is it that Hermione's point of view is right therefore it gives her the right to insult, dismiss and diminish others? I see that as a HUGE fault in Hermione. If she trully want to help out the elf's she would start by finding out what people think. Ron is her best contendant here. He questions himself about the elf's it's Hermione's oportunity to dig in him. As it stands right now not even the Elf's are willing to listen to her. Never mind about people. All of her intents are being futile and like JKR says she shons towards the people she is trying to help. If Hermione wants to help the elf's she has got to start by listening to wizards about them. Ron has a very valid point. How do you help someone who doesn't want to be help? You can't, the elf's don't want to be free and Hermione has got to start by that. But off course since she believes that she is right she refuses to listen to anybody that steps in with a different idea. That's is very wrong. Hermione needs to learn the value of other people's opinion and above all she needs to learn to respect those opinions, even though it makes her blood boil. In OoP we saw how clearly Ron and Hermione worked toguether on the prefect thing, on helping Harry, on standing Harry's temper tantrums as they grow their bickering is being reduce. I definetly felt that Ron and Hermione are closer in OoP.

Gily Ann

haycheng
September 5th, 2003, 9:05 pm
The 12 Grimmauld Place scene:
Ginny thinks she knows what happen to Harry. Moreoever, Vmort have not give out untrue information to Harrry after the attack on Arthur. Only after that, the dark lord realized the link between him and Harry. Therefore, Ginny argue is unsound ever indeed it plays a role in keeping Harry up.

As for the aftermath talk, they may talk about. However, the problem is that Ginny has not done any real damge. Harry was used and his godfather die because of it. It is very different experience. The level of guilt is much greater. Ginny accepted her own fault in COS. However, Harry still refuses to deal with his inner demon. He blame Snape, and the elve. I can already see what happen when Ginny want to use her expierence to connect with Harry. He will just say your mistake never cause anyone to die.

The experience certain help but it is overrated by H/G IMHO.

Prongs, Sr.
September 5th, 2003, 9:23 pm
As for the aftermath talk, they may talk about. However, the problem is that Ginny has not done any real damge. Harry was used and his godfather die because of it. It is very different experience. The level of guilt is much greater. Ginny accepted her own fault in COS. However, Harry still refuses to deal with his inner demon. He blame Snape, and the elve. I can already see what happen when Ginny want to use her expierence to connect with Harry. He will just say your mistake never cause anyone to die.

The fact that Ginny didn't do any real damage is irrelevent, in my opinion. She was possessed by Tom for almost a whole school year and caused pain to a lot of people, including her own friend, Hermione and her brother's girlfriend, Penelope and it is a miracle that no one died. She understands how it feels to make a big mistake and she understands what it is like to meet Voldemort; she does understand how it feels to be unclean, dirty and contaminated or JKR wouldn't have written her sitting next to Harry on the train while he is feeling these emotions. The irony of that situation, the one person who can help him is sitting right next to him and he doesn't even think of it. She as been touched with darkness, like Harry. This gives them a level of understanding that they alone have and when it comes time for their "talk", I'm sure they will understand each other perfectly.

noddwyd
September 5th, 2003, 9:29 pm
the fact that his mistake killed Sirius and injured others may or may not cause a problem if she tries to confront him about it. It pretty much depends on how Harry feels at the moment. He might even react violently to her trying to say "I know how you feel" and in all truth, she doesn't. She doesn't know what it feels like to have people she cares about die because of something she did.

FlyingPhoenix
September 5th, 2003, 9:32 pm
I disagree so much! Knightley and Emma bicker and a lot too. They insult each other and knitghley is downright mean sometimes to Emma (not that she doesn't deserved it, BTW). In many ways they remind of Ron and Hermione, only that I like how Ron and Hermione bicker.

and

Knightly constantly points out Emma's flaws throughout the novel. He remarks about how unfit Harriet is as a friend to Emma, for she will only enhance Emma's flaws. Knightly and Emma have quite a row about the whole Harriet/Robert Martin issue.

I see another novel we got different interpretations. First for me is it not mean to say that what he says to her. Its rather honest and not always after that what she think is right.
The different maybe the most and highest different is that Emma is foolish and wrong to that we need to place Hermione who is for her age very right and not foolish. Its even in the opposite about SPEW all Harry and Ron are against it only a few let say two or three say she is right thats what Emma don't know. There is everyone on her side only Knightley teels her the truth.
Both Knightley and Emma do debatte who is right about Harriet and her love life or other love life. There is not like R/Hr shouting or outbursts like a YuleBall its a normal debatte where both think they right, Emma knows she might be wrong.
Thats by R/Hr different they never debatte. They never try to give arguments or proofs for they doing. Hermione try to proof her point but Rn just say she is wrong. By Knightly or Emma is it like Pingpong first proofs Emma and than Knighley.
Its not really a row its a disagreement and because of the fact its rather hard to debatte a topic till death and to run against a wall they don't see each other not anymore that much. This reminds very much how Harry did react in OotP about Hermione. He did avoid her because He didn't want to hear how wrong he is. Thats by Knightley and Emma just the same.

I think that its impossible to compare it like that: Ron/Knightley and Emma/Hermione. Its more like that Hermione/Knightley and Emma/Harry.

Why? Because in HP Hermione isn't, she just isn't like Emma, she isn't foolish and not wrong to this comes slightley the background Emma is a star in this town but Hermione isn't famouse or righ. But Harry is famouse and rich. Harry is wrong and sometimes foolish. But at the sametime is he smart you can read he could get it by himself.

Hermione is like Knightley. He don't shut up. He tells Emma always if she is wrong or do things wrong even nobody else do so. Ron don't do this. Ron don't tells Hermione things which other didn't say already. Everybody knows Hermione study or is a know-it-all. Everybody know Hermione want free the elves though they seem to like to be slaves. Just look at the conversation between Percy and Hermione.
Its nothing new about this things Ron tells her. But the things which Hermione tells Harry this are new.

For me is bickering not that what happens between Knightley and Emma. Bickering is if its about nonsense like how clean are my shoes or how I look or just unimportant things and without any arguements and proofs. Just to state its like that and not different. Thats what you make if you shout or yell.

Auror Fett
September 5th, 2003, 9:34 pm
I agree that Hermione understands Harry m,ore than anyone else does. I mean, apperently nobody else attempted or did try to get Harry out of Buckbeak's room. Heck, even Sirius didn't. Yet, Hermione DID. She was the one who got him out. The important thing here is Hermione understands Harry more than anyone else. It's just been shown over and over again.

Duckie
September 5th, 2003, 9:35 pm
I have an unusual theory. It will be Harry and Tonks. She is older, a bit. But she became an auror just a year ago, so I don't think she is that much older. The two of them seem to have a mutual admiration society thing going on. There are two big reasons I think of her. One is that she is featured reasonably prominantly in OOTP, but she doesn't actually move the plot along. You read it and wonder why she was written in. And you are to remember her. The second reason is that I think there is romance in her future. Her name is Nymphadora. If that isn't a romance laden name, I don't know what is!

haycheng
September 5th, 2003, 9:36 pm
To Prongs, Sr.
We are clearly not in the same wavelenght at the moment so we have to agree to disagree here. I believe there is different in the situation. Moreover, Harry is no longer worry about how dirty he is, he is worry about the "marked" part. It is same none share with him. It is more than the guilt of being controlled and cause harm. I have no doubt that Ginny may be "the one" but her experience of being controlled is way overrated.

To GilyAnn
welcome back!! We seem to post at about same time. So I am going to address the post that right about my last post.

Yes I agree that Hermione know of both boy's disrepect. But I don't know about the part about Harry being more mature. I just think Harry doesn't ask because he used to not to ask people for help. Harry is a very proud person not to mention his abused child issues. I have always though that Harry lets Ron asks and then use it also. I see it more about an issue of personality more than maturity.
It is a different opinion between you and somone. IMHOI believe it is because he understand Hermione well that he know there is certain issue that he should not argue with her. However, it does not matter. The fact is Harry is generally more accept to Hermione's opinion in daily life. He know he is lazy and Hermione is rightoues so to yell at him. He feels more guilty than angry in most situation.

In OoP we saw how clearly Ron and Hermione worked toguether on the prefect thing, on helping Harry, on standing Harry's temper tantrums as they grow their bickering is being reduce. I definetly felt that Ron and Hermione are closer in OoP.
There is not much hint about the perfect duty. I do not know how can you see them. As for Ron stand up to Harry, I believe we have been through that you and me, GilyAnn . I believe Ron is simply too afraid to stand up anyone and refuse to back Hermione up when hermione need it. I see him and Harry's friendship are not improving but actually getting worse as either is talking to each others about anything important. In short I do not see any hint that you see. The one thing I see is Ron is more openly saying about how smart Hermione is. However, most of the time are when he want help. :shrug:

Earendil
September 5th, 2003, 9:41 pm
I don't think Ron treats Hermione or Harry like "garbage." He gets angry with them on occasion, but Harry was angry and spiteful toward his friends in book 5. It just happens sometimes, people get angry with one another. But making up and staying close friends is a strong indication that the relationship can withstand arguments. Ron made ONE false accusation about Hermione, and, while we can't see into Ron's head, we can have a little empathy and try and understand why he would say such a thing. He doesn't seem to be vindictive about it – he's sincerely angry for, IMO, one of two reasons. 1. Hermione came to the Yule Ball with Harry's opponent in the TriWizard Tournament, and Ron saw it as betrayal. 2. Hermione came to the Yule Ball with Krum, and Ron was jealous – but he doesn't realize that his feelings are jealousy, so he chalks it up to her "fraternizing with the enemy." Immature, yes, but vindictive and spiteful, I'm not so sure.

I don't think Ron treats Harry like "garbage", nor do I think he treats Hermione like "garbage". I personally think he treats Hermione more like nuclear waste, but that's just MHO. However, I will agree that the fact that the trio are able to stay friends through this is an indication of something stronger holding Ron and Hermione together, and I do think that that's Harry.

Anyway, in response to the two possible reasons listed:
1. Hermione came to the Yule Ball with Harry's opponent in the TriWizard Tournament, and Ron saw it as betrayal.
Fair enough--yet he doesn't see his swooning over Harry's other opponent and practically kissing the ground she walks on as betrayal? At best, Ron is being a hypocrite in this situation.

2. Hermione came to the Yule Ball with Krum, and Ron was jealous – but he doesn't realize that his feelings are jealousy, so he chalks it up to her "fraternizing with the enemy."
This I agree with completely. Yet, he projects his own selfish feelings of jealousy in the direction of hurtful and false accusations of betrayal. I would imagine that this is pretty serious here, no matter what the true intentions behind it may be.

So I would say: immature, yes, but vindictive and spiteful--not exactly. More like selfish and possessive.

In my eyes, Ron is not a nasty, scheming, chauvinistic, petty, pathetic loser. However, he tends to behave in exactly that manner when dealing with Hermione at times. Almost every interaction between Hermione and him brings out the absolute worst of his character, even in the smallest and briefest glimpses that are most often chalked up to sexual tension or hidden jealousy. I personally cannot envision Ron being with a girl who brings out the dregs of his character and makes him behave like a worse person than he is.

Obviously, the behavior that Ron displays toward Hermione is not so horrible – otherwise, wouldn't someone "intervene"?

I disagree. If a group of teenagers happen to notice a high-drama squabble happening during a dance, they will inevitably stop their own conversations and listen in for the fun of it. To intervene and put Ron in his place would interrupt the argument, which was clearly something that the readers (and Harry) needed to see, in order to elucidate Ron's "crush" on Hermione. Plus, as you mentioned later in your post, Harry does step in and say that HE doesn't have a problem with Hermione coming with Krum, which sort of shatters Ron's flimsy excuse of defending Harry, doesn't it? To have him say, "Ron, you're bang out of order, sit down and shut your trap" would not only have been out of character, it wouldn't have helped make that point--that Ron's supposed altruistic intentions of protecting Harry's interests were completely irrelevant to his true feelings of jealousy.

Finally, I must say that many of the most memorable romances have been born out of these "bickering" relationships. As I mentioned earlier, in both Emma and Pride and Prejudice, we can see examples between (respectively) Emma and Knightly and Elizabeth and Darcy. I know I've mentioned Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy, Han Solo and Princess Leia, Rhett and Scarlett, Kate and Petruchio (Taming of the Shrew), You've Got Mail/Shop Around the Corner, Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle (My Fair Lady), Kathy and Don from Singing in the Rain, Harry and Sally (When Harry Met Sally), Hepburn and Grant in Bringing up Baby, etc.

I really do love this point. On the one hand, we're told that the bickering couples scenario is not cliched, and on the other, we're told that it has stood the test of time and appears in many classics.

It does appear quite frequently in literature and film, and to that I say, well done. When this scenario is portrayed effectively and reasonably within the thematic scheme of the piece, few things are more entertaining. However, its application to the HP series has too many complications to fit cleanly into that "love/hate" relationship archetype. To very briefly summarize these innumerable complications: Ron and Hermione are not equals in terms of mindset and accomplishment; Ron and Hermione are not the only close friends (bring in Harry and we're up to our ears in complications); Ron and Hermione do not appear to see eye-to-eye in terms of the supposed attraction between them; Hermione has shown no clear signs of jealousy for anyone interested in Ron; and the list goes on.

And while we're here, I'm sure I could mention a few examples of non-bickering, peaceful, H/Hr types of romance happening in literature and film: Will and Lyra from His Dark Materials, Arwen and Aragorn from Lord of the Rings, The Princess Diaries, She's All That--any "girl next door" type of work you can think of. The point is, both types of romances have been done more times than anyone can count, and I do think that Ms. Rowling will want to attempt to diverge from the cut-and-dry path that appears to be universally expected in her books.

On a different note, Haycheng said earlier:

I do not know Ginny well enough. However, the boys she is dating right now appear to very different from Harry(it is arguable as we really do not know her bf much). Ginny is indeed a young soul in my eyes. (again it is arguable, I really do not know how much second year affect Ginny) Can she really ables to comfort harry? Do she really know "Harry" enough? It is a job Ron has fail. He may be Harry's best mate but he is still lack understand about Harry. The only one who seem to know Harry enough is Hermione. She may dismiss Harry's problem as small sometime and less then sensitive about Harry's feeling. However, she is still the best one to spot Harry's problem and the one stubborn/stupid enough to bother Harry.

I agree, and thank you for expressing this point so concisely. :clap:

noddwyd
September 5th, 2003, 9:42 pm
Nice theory, Ducky. I've always liked that idea myself. I just find it a little unlikely, seeing as she's about four years older than him, and he'll be in school...you know, maybe he won't be in school, you have to take that into consideration as well. But anyways, my original point was he'll be in school and there wouldn't be much interaction between them. That's if he remains at school.

viktorija_hp
September 5th, 2003, 9:42 pm
I have an unusual theory. It will be Harry and Tonks. She is older, a bit. But she became an auror just a year ago, so I don't think she is that much older. The two of them seem to have a mutual admiration society thing going on. There are two big reasons I think of her. One is that she is featured reasonably prominantly in OOTP, but she doesn't actually move the plot along. You read it and wonder why she was written in. And you are to remember her. The second reason is that I think there is romance in her future. Her name is Nymphadora. If that isn't a romance laden name, I don't know what is!


excuse me?

Polaris15
September 5th, 2003, 9:45 pm
There seems to be much dispute on whether Ron really had a crush on Fleur, or just affected by her veela charms. People may have different opinions on such a matter, but cannon points only in one direction: Ron is affected only by Fleur's veela charm.

[[As I've said before, the one Ron is "after" in GoF -- the one he outwardly, knowingly "likes" is Fleur.]]

Mad I, I'll have to disagree. The word "like" is a very strong word. A person has to have some sort of feelings for someone to even begin to like them. Ron doesn't know Fleur. He barely speaks to her. He can't like her. He can't have a crush on her, and he didn't.
A crush, as shortlived as it is, is a strong emotion. It requires knowledge about a person. It requires some thought about the person. However, Ron had displayed no such reaction towards Fleur. The only time his knees go weak and he turns into a bit of an idiot is when he actually "sees" Fleur. We know that Fleur is part Veela. We know that Veelas have charisma and are able to entice men briefly with her beauty.
How do we conclude that Ron's "feelings" towards Fleur is purely caused by Fleur's Veela charms? Simple. Ron is *not* the only one who reacted this way.

Cannon Evidence:

...A long sheet of silvery-blonde hair fell almost to her waist. She had large, deep blue eyes, an dvery white, even teeth.
Ron went purple. He stared up at her, opened his mouth to reply, but nothing ame out except a faint gurgling noise...
As the girl croseed the Hall, many boys' heads turned, and some of them seemed to have become temporarily speechless, just like Ron. (252 GoF)

********

"She's part veela," said Harry. "You were right---her grandmother was one. It wasn't your fault, I bet you just walked past when she was turning the old charm for Diggory and got a blast of it..." (399)

********

The kiss on the cheek after the second task was very telling. Harry, who we can agree, doesn't have a crush on Fleur, but still felt "steam was coming out of his ears" (506)

It is safe to conclude that Ron was merely affected by Fleur's Veela charms and not by her "ravishing" personality.

As JKR stated that in GoF, every "falls" for the wrong person. Since Ron doesn't have a crush on Fleur, and we all seem to agree on the fact that Ron displayed some more than friendly feelings for Hermione, then the only possible wrong-person Ron fell for was Hermione.

FlyingPhoenix
September 5th, 2003, 9:48 pm
the fact that his mistake killed Sirius and injured others may or may not cause a problem if she tries to confront him about it. It pretty much depends on how Harry feels at the moment. He might even react violently to her trying to say "I know how you feel" and in all truth, she doesn't. She doesn't know what it feels like to have people she cares about die because of something she did.

Absolutly right noddwyd.
Thats my problem with the theory that Ginny will understand Harry so much better, what she just can't. Let say Ginny think that she can understand him because she was possed like she did show in this G12 scene, this clould change the possible for H/G very much.
Because thats another problem with Ginny for me is that in this what and how she say this its sound as if Harry should know or rather have to know that Ginny and only Ginny know how it is to be possed. Its not gentle its rather mean how she say it IMO. She tells him in a way that he isn't possed as if she know it 100% but she can't know it thats a really a problem. She can't proof that only her experience are the only way to be possed by someone else. What we already know its not the only way there is still the imperius curse, what I believe Ginny can't fight. She do as if Dumbledore or any book say its like that how Ginny say it.
Ron for example says just what he can proof Harry was still in his bed, Hermione say what she can proof its in a book but Ginny say something what she can't proof. She can't back up what she say. I'm sure, if not very sure every teacher even they don't know Harrys story just Ginnys arguement did disagree because there are different possibles to posse someone.
But Ginny do as if nothing what she say could be wrong like the scene in the library. Thats a very important different Hermione seems to need back up for herself her arguements but Ginny don't. Thats possible the point what I dislike about Ginny and what I think will turn in book6 out to be against H/G.

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 9:53 pm
Mad I, I'll have to disagree. The word "like" is a very strong word. A person has to have some sort of feelings for someone to even begin to like them. Ron doesn't know Fleur. He barely speaks to her. He can't like her. I know that I am the wrong Mad I to be responding to this but, I just wanted to say that I agree with you....
many boys' heads turned, and some of them seemed to have become temporarily speechless, just like RonThis being the best evidence. Ron was simply affected by Fleur's veela powers, another argument would be that he never really talks about her being in the Triwizard Cup and that she may have other talents (but first of all she could only be in the Triwizard Cup because of her veela abilities but also Ron wouldn't want to talk about anyone but Harry, especially after telling off Hermoine about talking to the "enemy" (Krum).

noddwyd
September 5th, 2003, 9:59 pm
well, Hermione wouldn't know what that feels like either, I was just saying that Ginny would certainly not be able to successfully say "I know how you feel" because, well, she doesn't. And Harry would probably throw that right back in her face. What I mean is, it'll take a different approach to get closer to Harry.

tree guardian
September 5th, 2003, 10:04 pm
tree guardian Quote:
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By all that quote "tension" and all, I meant interesting developement. I don't mean fighting. Oh God no, I don't mean that. There isn't alot of room for much developement for a strong relationship, as I said in my first post on this thread. The decent beginings of a relationship but nothing much. I am not saying JKR isn't a capable writer. I think she is, and in the end I'm sure I will see her reasons for whatever happen, but I don't now see those reasons for H/G.

And by "she could have developed an H/G relationship ages ago" I don't mean romantic, I am refering to any kind of relationship beyond the near nonexistant kind. Thus far Ginny has been like a sister to Harry. It would be a natural developement if Harry were to date his best friend's sister, but heart pattering interesting?, my goodness no.--not at this point for me, not even close. (I would say, worth reading, but if JKR writes it, I'll read it, even if it's a bit like torture.
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I see what you mean. But I have a few questions. When does Harry acknoledges that Ginny is like a sister to him? Because all the time Harry is clear that Ginny is Ron's sister. Because the fact that he acknowledges that is Ron's sister first it's true but it doesn't mean that he sees her like his own sister.

I never said we have read from Harry's mouth nor any wandering thoughts of definite acknowledgemeant that Harry views Ginny as a sister. I was speaking from my POV on how I view her position in his life thus far as written by JKR. Of course Harry is clear that Ginny is Ron's sister. However Mrs. Weasly has made it perfectly clear that Harry is practically part of the family. No, this does not make Harry view Ginny in as a sister nor does it make Ginny view Harry as a brother, but such an acknowlegdement on Mrs. Weasly's part (head of household) raises her status to mother "figure" and in succession her family follows as father "figure", brother "figure", and sister "figure" whether they comply or not. This is simply a matter of Harry's relationship with the Weasly family as a whole not as individuals.

Now this said, such a change in status doesn't take Ginny out of the running for a romantic partnership to Harry. That wasn't the point I was trying to make in my above (origianal) post.

I think that was one of the reasons for JKR to keep them appart. Keeping them away from each other so they won't develop those feelings and I see it IMHO that it has worked. I see as a positive thing that JKR kept appart Ginny and Harry all this time. Until it was the right time. Ginny needed to grow up and so did Harry, Ginny needed to deal with her experience on the chamber, they needed some time appart to be themselves to then get toguether. They needed to be on their own and grow up an be themselves to then be a couple.

Again, I agree that there has not been any exact oral canon or narrartive canon to suggest sibling feelings between Harry or Ginny. However such feelings or brief acknowledgement wouldn't take Ginny out of the running for a future romance with Harry in the series. Why? Because they are not blood related, and any type of "nuetrual" relationship between such persons IMO always has the potential for developement, romantic or otherwise. My problem is that I see barely any relationship at all, whether it be friend or "potential love". Yes, we can all call Ginny a friend of Harry in general, but their relationship is lacking seriously, to think that built on what they have now, they'd be future "soul mates", or simply a literary couple worth the time to write.

Quote:
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Hmm, Harry languishing in love for Ginny is great, if it makes him happy, but for the reader, me in particular, it's like "::nod:: okay, more of Harry languishing, let's skip to something I don't already know is going to happen.--something that moves the main plot of along. This subplot was written three years ago."
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Quote:
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Would H/Hr interest me? yes, because it is building on some great deep friendship developement which has to this point been an unspoken or hidden developement. Not much (or nothing) is said on either Harry or Hermione's part or anyone elses part for that matter. I think there is much "hidden" here and much mystery. Whether it be romantic or not is not really my concern. It is deep and will always be deeper and more meaningful than anything that could happen between H/G in the series.
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I disagree. Harry has clearly expressed that Hermione is her friend and denied to sickness that she isn't his girlfriend and Hermione classified Rita Stories (including the first one) as 'ridiculous', neither showed (IMHO) any signs of liking each other. So what is this relationship based on? That they have a great friendship? That doesn't sound good to me. One of the reasons I don't like R/Hr is because I would really prefer if the trio would stay friends. So far in 5 books Ron and Hermione both have showed(IMHO) signs that they have more than friendship feelings for each other. But H/Hr hasn't. Harry is not dissapointed that Hermione is still writting to Krum or that she went with Krum to the Yule Ball (he doesn't has to show explosive jealousy to show it), Harry is not dueling on how much Hermione has change; in fact if Ron wouldn't have notice the teeth thing, Would Harry have? I don't think so. Harry doesn't look at Hermione 'in a whole new light'. Harry in book 5 was extremelly annoyed with Hermione. He seem to be hiding from her and avoiding her, he at one points thinks that he wants to shake her. I failed to see how Harry has romantic feelings towards Hermione if he is annoyed to her on this level. I know that some people think they do but I just failed to see it.

No, there has been no denying to a "sickness"; to the point of "feind" exsasperation, Yes.

Yes, their relationship is based a great friendship. And I believe, highly, that in the end no matter who is with whom they shall all be friends. Even the persons in the "couple" will be friends as well as loves. ( 'r' was not in the word on purpose)

There hasn't been acknowlegement or explosive demonstration on either Harry or Hermione's part concerning "romantic interest or jealousy", no. Need there be? The whole point of my original post (which you are refering) is not about there being blatent expressions of love. It is about there be a great developing relationship between Harry and Hermione and not one of much pitch and moment between Harry and Ginny.

Yes, Harry is very annoyed with Hermione, quite frequently in OotP. I too have had good friends that I wanted to shake at times. Not because I hated them or even irate at them. I was really just baffled or exsasperated because at the moment they seemed just not to "get" the point. Did that push us apart? No way. We were building a relationship. We were arguing, disagreeing, conversating, interacting, trying to understand one another. To all relationships (friendships or otherwise) there are ups and downs. Harry and Hermione as well as Harry and Ron and Hermione and Ron have ups and downs in their relationship because they have a relationship upon which they are building. They are trying to learn how to guage each other and know when to take breaks and when to confront and when everything is cool. Ginny and Harry don't so much because they don't have a relationship, I even dare to say "friend" relationship. Now, don't take that the wrong way. But to say that Ginny and Hermione have equal friendship relationships with Harry would be absurd. There are bestfriends and there are friends. In a crowd of friends your bestfriend(s) will stand out.

No, even after the DoM scene I don't think Harry considers L, G, and N to bestfrieds yet. I am not saying it can't get to that level but it is not there yet.

No, I don't think Hermione as a bestfriend to Harry excludes her from becoming a "love" of Harry's.

As far as Ginny and Harry are concerned, as of now there is not much relationship to build off of. This is my point. Yes, I think their relationship is going to grow in the next 2 books. I am sure of that. But I have only superficial and/or circumstantial reasons to suggest that it would lead to a romance; a romance that would be superficial if were to happen anyway. (By superficial I do not mean fake but underdeveloped.)

I have more to say but I have to go.

Sorry. I hope I was a bit clear.

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 10:07 pm
it'll take a different approach to get closer to Harry.I think that this is the key to this scene, because Hermione may not know what it is like to be inhabited by Voldemort and Ginny clearly does, but the way that Ginny approaches the situation as a person claiming to know what Harry feels without interacting with him at all isn't a good way to approach Harry. Hermione on the other hand openly (and perhaps this is only because she knows that she doens't know what it is like) approaches the situation and wants to talk to Harry to find out how he is feeling.

DumbledoreTheWise
September 5th, 2003, 10:15 pm
Just to clarify on other posts, according to direct text Ginny NEVER says "I know how you feel." She says "You don't know anyone but me who's been posseseed by You Know Who, and I can tell you how it feels." page 499, Scholastic Edition.

FlyingPhoenix
September 5th, 2003, 10:21 pm
well, Hermione wouldn't know what that feels like either, I was just saying that Ginny would certainly not be able to successfully say "I know how you feel" because, well, she doesn't. And Harry would probably throw that right back in her face. What I mean is, it'll take a different approach to get closer to Harry.

I didn't say that Hermione can understand Harrys feelings. What I mean is that by her isn't it in general that say something where she don't has any idea from. First she back it up before she say something. If she has to tell it before she was ready to it than its sounds like in the arguement about Sirius/Voldemort.
Anyway my point is simply that let say Ginny knows how it is or think she know it this make it worst because she can't like you say it. Its in such case better if someone don't know because that give a possible to speak for Harry about it.
Like to tell someone about the Sun if this one don't know how it looks like. Its sometimes better to speak about difficult topics.

In OotP Hermione clearly did tell that he is right and they don't know how it is.

By Ginny I have this feeling she is very much more like that she know, though she don't.

See what I mean? Hermione admit that she don't know how it is. Ginny seems to think that she exactly know how it is but in real she don't or rather Harry's oppionen says that she don't

Buckbeak
September 5th, 2003, 10:23 pm
Hello everyone, ok well i haven't been on here for a day, which as i see was a big mistake because nearly five pages have already gone by, i haven't finished reading them yet, so if i repeat anyone then i appoligise, now i found this rather interesting theory by Daveydee, which as i say is interesting and i know its already been discussed but can i just ask you something Daveydee?

Here's what you said, i cut some of it out but iv left in the important points you were trying to make.
Luna, Ron and Hermione
Overlooking the Fleur factor, which does admittedly contain a 2% element of doubt, given Hermione’s initial dislike of the girl, it’s perfectly obvious to my mind. The mechanism is Luna; which although having been briefly alluded to in previous posts, has not yet been fully examined. It must be. It will I feel be the most important single means which will allow JK to give us an insight into how Hermione truly feels about Ron.
I have to say at this stage that I have revised my original view of a possible Luna-Ron attachment, which was at best sceptical, at worst dismissive. But, I see now that not only is it possible, but it is inevitable. For one reason. It will knock Hermione for six. As an essential part of her character development, Hermione is long overdue for a significant setback. This, I feel will be it. Quite how far JK will take a Luna-Ron relationship, I am not sure. It is, in itself of no relevance. It will serve one purpose, and one purpose alone – to put Hermione through the same sort of emotions Ron experienced over her and Krum 2 years previously, and to allow those feelings that have been so subtly concealed/expressed to come to the fore.

So what you are saying is that JK will make Ron and Luna go out so that Hermione can get jealous and realize her feelings for Ron, rather like Ron did with the whole Krum affair, is that right?
So what your admitting with this is that Hermione as of yet does not have any feelings (romance wise) for Ron, well not until she realizes them.
So if this the case can i just ask? why it seems so impossible for R/Hr'ers to see a H/Hr relationship when it can be just as easily built upon like the above theory, for e.g Maybe JK is using the Ron and Hermione relationship as an excuse to make Harry become jealous and realize his feelings for Hermione. Its a big leap but then so is the Ron/Luna/Hermione theory, if your going to take one then why not the other, oh thats right it doesn't go well with your ship, sorry. :whistle:

Oh and also another question, now i feel that i'm going to be blasted with abuse for even thinking of asking this, but to be honest with all the theories iv read based on R/Hr it just seems like the most logical explanation i can come up with. Now i know this doesn't apply to all of you R/Hr shippers but to some and certainly to some on other forums that iv met it seems more likely.

My question is: do must of you R/Hr shippers support that ship because Ron is your favourite character? or is it because you hate Harry and you don't want him with Hermione?

The reason i ask this is because some of you deny H/Hr to the futherest possible regions of the earth that its almost as though you've convinced yourself that JK is just not going to write a relationship between the two of them, no way in hell, iv heard words like 'Harry and Hermione are so obviously not going to happen' and there is a lot of 'double standard' going on, as no one really knows what JK's going to write you can not deny anything, you can dislike it but to say that it has no chance in hell of happening is IMO wrong.

Your going to come down on me like a ton of bricks for this because you will think i'm being rather hypocricticle in the sense that Harry is my favourite character and i support him with Hermione, well that would be half the truth, the rest is just due to the fact that Harry is the hero of the story, he is the main character so it just seems to make sense (to me anyway) that he should end up with the girl, who happens to be the main girl in his life. that is the simplest answer i can give you and i'm being honest with it. For me bringing Ron and Hermione together, would be throughly pointless, not horrible, but whats the sense in it? can anyone tell me that.
Ok id better get back to reading everyones posts, Oh and Evaluna i'm glad you like your photograph, i knew all those photorgraphy lessons and the survival techniques i learnt in the army cadets, would come in handy one day. :D

Polaris15
September 5th, 2003, 10:24 pm
At the very least, one would have expected a raised eyebrow from Ron. Nothing.

[[Why? Because he's already noticed Hermione as a girl, the night before in the common room. And the beauty of it is that, in the end, it didn't take dress robes and hair potion for that to happen. That is the moment which defines Ron's feelings for Hermione, and one which belies his supposed shallowness, as the immediate subsequent scene demonstrates.]]

Really? If he truly realized that she is a girl, then why did he treat Hermione as a last resort? Furthermore why was he so reluctant to believe that someone actually asked bushy-haired, book-worm Hermione? His shallowness is not in question because he had proven himself to be a shallow person at times. As far as Ron ignoring Hermione at the beginning of the ball, it parallels Harry's reaction when Harry saw Cho with Cedric doesn't it. Harry wasn't too keen on seeing his crush with her date either.

[[The only thing we found out about Ginny from someone else it was that she has boyfriend and that how she got to play Quidditch. We found that Ginny was a good at lying because Harry so it. We found that Ginny was spunky because Harry saw it,]]

Yes, and we also saw that Ginny has moved on to other guys.

[[We saw in book 5 that Ron and Hermione bickering diminish a whole lot. So as time pass by (which it something I always assumed) the bickering will subside and shift towards something more. So I don't think that their relationship will be the same 20 years from now.]]

You're right; Ron and Hermione's relationship won't be the same 20 years from now on, it would be more like Harry and Hermione's relationship right now; only Ron and Hermione won't have the "connection" Harry and Hermione do.



[[But the problems is that Ginny has been in all books and in all have had somehow Character development. In Each book we saw something different about Ginny.]]

character development? Nope. Ginny was a flat character. All we learned about her from the first four books are
1) She's a Weasley
2) She has a crush on Harry
I wouldn't call that "development"


[[ I think Harry earning Ginny it classifies as nothing gritty and funny.]]

If Harry pursues Ginny the way Ginny did to Harry, then I would find that extremely comical, not to mention tasteless and hopelessly cliched.

[[Again, there are several instances in the books where Ron either looks at Hermione admiringly, or says something admiringly. I'll have to go through and look up specific instances, I suppose, but I know that they are there]]

show me.

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 10:29 pm
First of all, nice post yet again tree guardian......
My problem is that I see barely any relationship at all, whether it be friend or "potential love". Yes, we can all call Ginny a friend of Harry in general, but their relationship is lacking seriously, to think that built on what they have now, they'd be future "soul mates", or simply a literary couple worth the time to write. Nice point, there is still time, but a limited amount and there are other relationships that are further along (not to completely discount any other relationships as the point of which one is further along is debatable and also as I said, there is still time for development).
Yes, Harry is very annoyed with Hermione, quite frequently in OotP. I too have had good friends that I wanted to shake at times. Not because I hated them or even irate at them. I was really just baffled or exsasperated because at the moment they seemed just not to "get" the point. Did that push us apart? No way. We were building a relationship Realtionship building is a nice phrase to describe the way Hermione and Harry act, but also keep in mind that there are similar interactions going on between Ron and Hermione (i.e. "tension")
Ginny and Harry don't so much because they don't have a relationship, I even dare to say "friend" relationship. I feel that there has been a definite start to a relationship (friendship for the most part) in OotP and I also feel that due to the place that the last story ended that Book 6 will mean increased interaction between the new 6 friends (Ginny, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, and Luna) leading to an increased relationship between each of them. Which can't help me from thinking, could JKR have introduced Neville, Luna, and Ginny to give other friends to the member of the original 3 once two of them are dating?
No, I don't think Hermione as a bestfriend to Harry excludes her from becoming a "love" of Harry's. This gets to touchy language, because I feel that Hermione is a very good friend of Harry but not a "best" friend because I don't think that dating could go on between typical "best" friends but I see a relationship as a possiblility (even if it is a minor possibility) in the future.

Polaris15
September 5th, 2003, 10:29 pm
[[I know that I am the wrong Mad I to be responding to this but, I just wanted to say that I agree with you....]]

Oops. Apologies. Too many Mad I's. I'm glad that you agree with me.

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 10:42 pm
Just to clarify on other posts, according to direct text Ginny NEVER says "I know how you feel." She says "You don't know anyone but me who's been posseseed by You Know Who, and I can tell you how it feels." page 499, Scholastic EditionThank-you for the clarification, but I still think that the same points stand because of the connotation of what Ginny says.

So what you are saying is that JK will make Ron and Luna go out so that Hermione can get jealous and realize her feelings for Ron, rather like Ron did with the whole Krum affair, is that right?
So what your admitting with this is that Hermione as of yet does not have any feelings (romance wise) for Ron, well not until she realizes them.
So if this the case can i just ask? why it seems so impossible for R/Hr'ers to see a H/Hr relationship when it can be just as easily built upon like the above theory, for e.g Maybe JK is using the Ron and Hermione relationship as an excuse to make Harry become jealous and realize his feelings for Hermione. Its a big leap but then so is the Ron/Luna/Hermione theory, if your going to take one then why not the other, oh thats right it doesn't go well with your ship, sorry.This is an iffy interpretation because you have made it so that you can apply it to any relationship, when in fact it is a specific instance that allows it to happen.
The reason i ask this is because some of you deny H/Hr to the futherest possible regions of the earth that its almost as though you've convinced yourself that JK is just not going to write a relationship between the two of them, no way in hell, iv heard words like 'Harry and Hermione are so obviously not going to happen' and there is a lot of 'double standard' going on, as no one really knows what JK's going to write you can not deny anything, you can dislike it but to say that it has no chance in hell of happening is IMO wrong. This could lead to some interesting discussions......
Really? If he truly realized that she is a girl, then why did he treat Hermione as a last resort? Furthermore why was he so reluctant to believe that someone actually asked bushy-haired, book-worm Hermione? His shallowness is not in question because he had proven himself to be a shallow person at times. As far as Ron ignoring Hermione at the beginning of the ball, it parallels Harry's reaction when Harry saw Cho with Cedric doesn't it. Harry wasn't too keen on seeing his crush with her date either. This could be simply because they are friends and Ron didn't want to enter into an uncomfortable silence after asking one of his friends to a formal dance (I understand that to many people this may be normal but the way that Ron, Hermione, and Harry interact at least before OotP it is out of the ordinary).
Yes, and we also saw that Ginny has moved on to other guys. This is a topic that I talked about yesterday and I don't think that I stuck around long enough to get a response, does anyone find it weird that Ginny, who is one year younger than Ron, Harry, and Hermione, has dated as many people as all three of them combined? For those keeping score I am counting Ginny as having two boyfriends, Michael Corner, and of course the ever-disputed Dean, while Harry has had just Cho Chang and Hermione has had just Krum....poor Ron hasn't had a major relationship yet though (at least that I can think of). Also does anyone think that the possibility of Ron getting into a relatioship soon is increased because he hasn't had a major one as of yet while Ginny, Hermione, and Harry have each had one already?

argog24
September 5th, 2003, 10:49 pm
I agree with F.P. Sometimes thinking you can understand is much, much worse than just not understanding and addmitting it.

GilyAnn
September 5th, 2003, 10:50 pm
The different maybe the most and highest different is that Emma is foolish and wrong to that we need to place Hermione who is for her age very right and not foolish. Its even in the opposite about SPEW all Harry and Ron are against it only a few let say two or three say she is right thats what Emma don't know. There is everyone on her side only Knightley teels her the truth.
Both Knightley and Emma do debatte who is right about Harriet and her love life or other love life. There is not like R/Hr shouting or outbursts like a YuleBall its a normal debatte where both think they right, Emma knows she might be wrong.
Thats by R/Hr different they never debatte. They never try to give arguments or proofs for they doing. Hermione try to proof her point but Rn just say she is wrong. By Knightly or Emma is it like Pingpong first proofs Emma and than Knighley.
Its not really a row its a disagreement and because of the fact its rather hard to debatte a topic till death and to run against a wall they don't see each other not anymore that much. This reminds very much how Harry did react in OotP about Hermione. He did avoid her because He didn't want to hear how wrong he is. Thats by Knightley and Emma just the same.

Picnic remember? Emma was downright mean to Mrs. bates. Knightley and Emma have huge rows. He clearly tells her she is foolish, she doesn't know how to apply logic that she is clearly blinded by her foolish attempts even though the truth is right in front of her eyes in fine words off courses, he calls her judgement bogus and simply insult her. He calls her an airhead. Knitley and Emma's rows are very row like! And they not only have one they have several of them. If anyone fits Emma is Ron who is clearly as clueless as Emma was.

I think this row was simply stupid! Neither of them had to be involved in other people's love lives. They both were discoussing something that it was simply pointless.

It is a different opinion between you and somone. IMHOI believe it is because he understand Hermione well that he know there is certain issue that he should not argue with her. However, it does not matter. The fact is Harry is generally more accept to Hermione's opinion in daily life. He know he is lazy and Hermione is rightoues so to yell at him. He feels more guilty than angry in most situation.

I see your point but it doesn't click in me. I trully think he does it because he simply doesn't want to deal with her and because he

go2go be back
Gily ann

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 10:53 pm
I agree with F.P. Sometimes thinking you can understand is much, much worse than just not understanding and addmitting it This is a good point (as I expressed in an earlier post).....a definite plus for Hermione as a person to care what Harry is feeling but is this a sign of a good friend or a potential girlfriend (or simply both)?

ana_banana
September 5th, 2003, 11:04 pm
Alright, one night and theres a new page already. Someone replied on my post that I was insulting JK for saying that not everything we see is happenning. Excuse me, but I disagree. Dont go putting words in my mouth, I never insulted JK and I never will. I said the real thing. Harry doesnt see everything, things can be happenning besides Harry and JK does show clues. Just because theyre not splashed all over the room, doesnt mean theyre not there.
I also don't understand why Ginny is suddenly dating everyone around, when shes only had ONE boyfriend, she said she was interest in Dean and we dont know anything about that.......On a side plus, I agree with everything Gilly Ann's said hereLOL. You go!

Perdita
September 5th, 2003, 11:14 pm
That was a beautiful post, noddwydd. My favourite part was this:

N:
But what I really want to see, and what I think would make for a more powerful theme/plotline/message/whatever. is Harry looking down over the edge of that precipice of darkness, of despair and hatred and destruction, and thinking, 'maybe it's not so far down after all' and almost falling, but love (coming from somewhere he never expected) calls him back at the last moment, the power that saved him in the past is restored to him tenfold, and he finally realizes he's been going about this the wrong way the whole time. It's Venus, not Mars, love, and not war, creation, and not destruction.

Now who will be the one that redeems him and saves him from himself I leave open to interpretation, if you even buy any of this at all, that is.

The imaginary scene you’ve created reminds me of the Quidditch World Cup scene at the beginning of GOF, when Harry’s attention was absorbed by the Veelas and it was Hermione’s voice that drew him out of his stupour. ;)

Evaluna:
Re: “light-hearted” and “romance”, I’m still hoping that applies to other [secondary or esp. more shallow] characters but not to Harry, for whom I [like you] am hoping for something much more profound.

I agree. I find it very hard to believe that Rowling will treat Harry’s love story only as comical relief for her books. The darkness and the evil of antagonistic characters like Voldemort and his Death Eaters has such a powerful presence in the story that to treat the main protagonist’s love story as nothing more than comic relief would be imbalanced. This imbalance, in my view, will make the story appear weak.

Polaris15:
There are thousands of ways to write romance. Chucking a character out of the first four books is not one of them.

:lol: Sometimes, reality is harsh.

Lord Thingy:

Welcome aboard the HMS Harmony! I could type up an entire memo to send to you, but I think you’ll appreciate the abridged version of it more, which confirms: “Drinks at the bar are free.” (On condition that you are of age to consume alcohol).

Buttercup:
Thank you Ana Banana for trying to answer my questons about whether Hermiones responses show an interest in Ron. But I have to say that I am still frustrated because I am not seeing it. I really do want to but for now I am still of the opinion that Hermione doesn't have romantic feelings for Ron.

I admire you for your honesty. I really mean it. :tu:

I haven’t read all the posts, so these are the only comments I have so far. I also want to add for tree guardian, Mad-I and Flying Phoenix:, you’ve made some excellent posts and rebuttals. :clap: :clap:

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 11:15 pm
Alright, one night and theres a new page already. Someone replied on my post that I was insulting JK for saying that not everything we see is happenning. Excuse me, but I disagree. Dont go putting words in my mouth, I never insulted JK and I never will. I said the real thing. Harry doesnt see everything, things can be happenning besides Harry and JK does show clues. Just because theyre not splashed all over the room, doesnt mean theyre not there. This is a good point and could prove to be more important in the future as actions of the Order become more important to Harry and those actions continue to be shaded in mystery.
I also don't understand why Ginny is suddenly dating everyone around, when shes only had ONE boyfriend, she said she was interest in Dean and we dont know anything about that I maintain that Ginny is dating Dean Thomas because:
OotP American Edition, Chapter 38: The Second War Begins, pg. 866: "Well, I always thought that he was a bit of an idiot," he {Ron}said, prodding his queen forward toward Harry's quivering castle. "Good for you. Just choose someone----better ----- next time." He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it. "Well I've chosen Dean Thomas, would you say he's better?" asked Ginny vaguely. I don't see how this can't be interpretted that Ginny is implying that she is dating Dean Thomas, I can however understand scepticism as to whether or not it is true.

haycheng
September 5th, 2003, 11:20 pm
sorry if you find that I have insulted you ana_banana . There are certain standard/quality that define a good writter in my mind. The ability to write everything logically is one of them. Any pogress should follow the characer's personality and experience. It would be uncomfortable to think Luna suddenly acts like Hermione when there is no hint.
I do not deny there is possible that H/R could happen, but I can not accept the fact that it has already happen and JKR do not ever hintabout it.IMHO, it is bad writting.

again I want to offer a sincere apology if you are offended. (by the way, please forgive my english)
PS:If you have posted hint and I have missed it, can you kindly point me to the right directly?
By the way, enjoy your stay in love thread.(have I say this recently......?)

Prongs, Sr.
September 5th, 2003, 11:49 pm
I agree. I find it very hard to believe that Rowling will treat Harry’s love story only as comical relief for her books. The darkness and the evil of antagonistic characters like Voldemort and his Death Eaters has such a powerful presence in the story that to treat the main protagonist’s love story as nothing more than comic relief would be imbalanced. This imbalance, in my view, will make the story appear weak.

Well, she's already written a romance for Harry and Cho which was lighthearted. It's possible that this is the way she is going in terms of romance. However, In terms of showing a deeper, more meaningful connection it makes sense with Harry and Ginny. She has truly experienced darkness and survived. A love story between H/G would serve a purpose as potential comedy, i.e. Harry thinking Ginny is over him and he will have to win her back and potential darkness, i.e. discussion over issues of possession and a true understanding of how it feels to be taken over by the dark lord.

Mad I
September 5th, 2003, 11:55 pm
She has truly experienced darkness and survived.Just one quick thing, Hermione, Luna, and pretty much every other person that Harry has been put with has had this (though I agree to a slightly lesser extent because she has been possesed).

DumbledoreTheWise
September 5th, 2003, 11:55 pm
Thank-you for the clarification, but I still think that the same points stand because of the connotation of what Ginny says.


How so? You lot were saying that the text shows that Ginny presumes to understand Harry in this scene. That simply cannot be proved by any of the text. She never says she understands Harry or his feelings, and I see no evidence that the "connotations" point to this direction. She simply says "I know what it's really like, I can help you if want to know what's really happening." That is the impression I got from this statement "You don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You Know Who, and I can tell you how it feels," and then the convo that followed.
If you want to talk about conotations, I suggest you look more closely at this next passage. You all said that Hermione didn't presume to understand Harry's feelings, and Ginny did. First of all I just showed that Ginny didn't, but as for the Hermione part, observe this:
"Oh, stop feeling all misunderstood," said Hermione sharply. Page 499, Scholastic edition.

It seems like Hermione did more presuming about Harry's feelings than Ginny did. I'm not saying Hermione did anything wrong, I am simply pointing out errors in the idea that Ginny claimed to understand Harry, and Hermione did no such thing.

And as for the implications that Ginny "moves on to other guys after Harry" or is "easy" LOL!!! Oh my goodness. Seriously,it took four years for her to "go" (if you can even call it that) from Harry to Michael. It seems also that she was friends with Michael for several months before dating him. And Dean makes boyfriend number two. If you call that moving around, thats pretty sad. Two boyfriends in your history when approaching the age of 15 does NOT tell us that she is in Ron's precious words, a "scarlet woman." ;) We have also seen indications that Ginny is very compassionate. She was very remorseful and sad about the events of her second year. She started crying and shaking when the dementors came into the compartment in PoA. She was worried about the seekers safety in GoF. She goes with neville to the Ball. She seems to generally have sympathy because she defends him in OotP several times and it seems Neville realizes this and also tries to protect her, as in the Umbridge scene. She seems to genuinely care about Harry's emotions in Book 5, the possession scene, and after she knows he needs to talk to Sirius. Ginny offers her aid in the DoM situation and says that she cares about the outcome. I'm sorry, but all of these things do not point to a shallow, easy girl who moves around a lot. Two boyfriends does not classify as moving around a lot. As a matter of fact, I think JKR used this idea of Ginny dating to point out that there are boys interested in her, that she has a genuinely fun, interesting, and caring personality, and that she is not some silly little girl who like Harry, and that's all we will ever know.That's how I see it. I fail to see your points here, other posters.

And Polaris15, Ginny was not "chucked out of the first four books." She was defnitly still there. Like JK has proven before with Sirius, Lupin, and countless others, absence in a certain part of Harry's life means nothing when we talk about potential importance. Sirius was less there than Ginny was for a part of the series. All indications from our beloved Miss Rowling are that we will learn more about Ginny. Has it occured to you there might be an appropriate time for these things to come into full view? Has it occured to you that what may be more telling is that Harry has known Hermione pretty well for five years and STILL isn't interested in her??? i'm not downplaying Hermy's importance, she's very important. But just because she has been the central female doesn't mean she will end up with the Boy Who Lived.

BlackKnight86
September 5th, 2003, 11:56 pm
Quote from DaveyDee:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
As for Mad-I Moody's explanation of Harry's cluelessness, I have to say it's a perfectly valid alternative view. Unless of course you're suggesting that he's not clueless in that department.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Daveydee,

I realize that I tend to be very rigorous with expository discussion; that's how I was trained, that's how I organize my thoughts. I can assure you that I intend no offense by it. That was not a personal attack against Mad-I Moody; I'll be happy to explain my position.

Mad-I Moody chose to respond to a question that I asked you:

Quote from BlackKnight86:
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Are you saying he doesn't care? Is that what you mean by "it's between Hermione and Ron after all"? He doesn't care enough for it to

even cross his mind once?
------------------------------------------------------

with the answer:

Quote from Mad-I Moody:
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I can't speak for daveydee, of course, but I'd like to offer my opinion on this. Harry, as we have discovered in OotP, is a bit...erm...dense when it comes to matters of the heart. He doesn't understand the overly emotional Cho. He doesn't seem to understand, very well, typical boy/girl romantic interactions.
-------------------------------------------------------

The phrase "dense in matters of the heart" is neither denotative nor definitive. I could assume the implications - "dense" implies a slowness or difficulty in understanding - a dubious application to Harry, IMO - while "matters of the heart" implies romantic matters. However, neither phrase is precisely defined or specific enough to apply to my question without further clarification; and the only specific fact that Mad-I Moody mentioned as clarification was that Harry "doesn't understand the overly emotional Cho". Absent was any indication of what he didn't understand and why; also, there was no indication as to why this lack of understanding was a character flaw on Harry's part, and thus could interfere with his understanding of his friends' feelings. Perhaps he didn't understand Cho because she was a complete flake at the time due to Cedric's death (not bashing, just a suggested possibility). Perhaps none of Harry's male peers would have understood her, either...who knows? The point is, Mad-I Moody stated an opinion as if it were fact and backed it up with one tepid example from the text and one very general statement about romantic stereotypes. Moreover, the stated opinion appeared to be specific to Harry's personal POV (ie. his own romantic interest in Cho) vice his observation of Hermione's and Ron's feelings (objective observation is not necessarily affected by personal subjectivity), which was the subject of my questions. Absent further clarification, I can neither relate the explanation to my question, nor can I even accept the explanation as even being true. Notice that I didn't question the possibility of the explanation; nor did I question the potential validity of the deductive argument that rested behind the explanation (which wasn't stated, so I never got the chance to see it). I questioned the validity of the explanation (valid - "containing premises from which the conclusion may logically be derived") because I saw no logical path from which Mad-I Moody's conclusion was derived. Oh, and, by the way, unless and until you explain to me the meaning and intent behind your use of the word "clueless", I most certainly do dispute your assertion that Harry is, in fact, "clueless" in that department. ;)

By the way, Mad-I Moody, your 2nd response post to me was well done. You gave me a lot to chew on - now that's what I'm talking about! Although I would like to mention one thing right now: those "bickering couple" examples....be careful with them; there's a variety of dynamics going on as to why the different couples bicker. Drawing similarities between all of them without a commonality can be fallacious. I'm not saying you do that; it's just an cautionary observation. And as to my comment about your contradicting your shipmate; I'm sorry about that - I wasn't aware that you felt differently. A number of my clarification questions were driven by Daveydee's assertion that Harry was aware of Ron's feelings.

Anyway, Daveydee, I can understand your frustration about having to go over and over the same points, but I have to say that I think the reason we do this is because the thread is not organized. I surfed the thread for quite some time before I joined; in fact, I have parts 2-4 for this thread in text documents (I'm compiling them for research purposes). Even still, until I finish my organization, it's a little difficult to refer to others' past posts (covering what...2 to 3 thousand pages?). In my first post ever I made the proposal that we have a more formal, structured debate; and it was rejected for the reason that people enjoyed the informality. Now that's fine; but it's bound to make things a bit harder to track. I did read your post on page one; yes, it's an interesting theory. However, there aren't any facts in it. Debating opinions without facts is like debating favorite colors - it can't really be done. In fairness to you and to your position, however, I will go back over my thread files and research what you had to say. While I'm doing that, if you know of a compilation of canon evidence for R/Hr, I'd appreciate a link, if you wouldn't mind...I like to be thorough!

Thanks for writing; I hope you're having a great day!

BlackKnight86

Daveydee
September 6th, 2003, 12:17 am
..., now i found this rather interesting theory by Daveydee, which as i say is interesting and i know its already been discussed but can i just ask you something Daveydee?

Here's what you said, i cut some of it out but iv left in the important points you were trying to make.
Why? Because he's already noticed Hermione as a girl, the night before in the common room. And the beauty of it is that, in the end, it didn't take dress robes and hair potion for that to happen. That is the moment which defines Ron's feelings for Hermione, and one which belies his supposed shallowness, as the immediate subsequent scene demonstrates.
Really? If he truly realized that she is a girl, then why did he treat Hermione as a last resort? Furthermore why was he so reluctant to believe that someone actually asked bushy-haired, book-worm Hermione? His shallowness is not in question because he had proven himself to be a shallow person at times.

So what you are saying is that JK will make Ron and Luna go out so that Hermione can get jealous and realize her feelings for Ron, rather like Ron did with the whole Krum affair, is that right?
So what your admitting with this is that Hermione as of yet does not have any feelings (romance wise) for Ron, well not until she realizes them.
The feelings are there, somewhat supressed, maybe. I believe that there needs to be a stimulus or mechanism for those feelings to come to the fore. I see Luna as that mechanism.

So if this the case can i just ask? why it seems so impossible for R/Hr'ers to see a H/Hr relationship when it can be just as easily built upon like the above theory, for e.g Maybe JK is using the Ron and Hermione relationship as an excuse to make Harry become jealous and realize his feelings for Hermione. Its a big leap but then so is the Ron/Luna/Hermione theory, if your going to take one then why not the other, oh thats right it doesn't go well with your ship, sorry.There is no text, to support the notion that Harry is in any way jealous over what he might perceive as a developing relationship between Ron and Hermione. I don't recall ever having seen any H/Hr shipper suggest that he is or ever has been.

My question is: do must of you R/Hr shippers support that ship because Ron is your favourite character? or is it because you hate Harry and you don't want him with Hermione?
I can only speak for myself (although I'm pretty sure other R/Hr veterans would agree), but neither of those is the case. Ron is not my favourite character, I don't hate Harry, and in an ideal world it would be wonderful for him to end up with Hermione. My view is based purely on my interpretation of events and perception of characters.

The reason i ask this is because some of you deny H/Hr to the futherest possible regions of the earth that its almost as though you've convinced yourself that JK is just not going to write a relationship between the two of them, no way in hell, iv heard words like 'Harry and Hermione are so obviously not going to happen' and there is a lot of 'double standard' going on, as no one really knows what JK's going to write you can not deny anything, you can dislike it but to say that it has no chance in hell of happening is IMO wrong.
No more than H/Hr shippers take an equivalent view on the prospects of Ron and Hermione happening. And of course we don't know what JK is going to write. Nobody does. That's why we're all here speculating in the Predictions and Theories forum.

Your going to come down on me like a ton of bricks for this because you will think i'm being rather hypocricticle in the sense that Harry is my favourite character and i support him with Hermione, well that would be half the truth, the rest is just due to the fact that Harry is the hero of the story, he is the main character so it just seems to make sense (to me anyway) that he should end up with the girl, who happens to be the main girl in his life. that is the simplest answer i can give you and i'm being honest with it. For me bringing Ron and Hermione together, would be throughly pointless, not horrible, but whats the sense in it? can anyone tell me that.
I believe that there are good and valid reasons for writing Ron and Hermione as a couple. In fact, I'm in the process of puuting together a post about that very subject. So...watch this space.


Why? Because he's already noticed Hermione as a girl, the night before in the common room. And the beauty of it is that, in the end, it didn't take dress robes and hair potion for that to happen. That is the moment which defines Ron's feelings for Hermione, and one which belies his supposed shallowness, as the immediate subsequent scene demonstrates.

Really? If he truly realized that she is a girl, then why did he treat Hermione as a last resort? Furthermore why was he so reluctant to believe that someone actually asked bushy-haired, book-worm Hermione? His shallowness is not in question because he had proven himself to be a shallow person at times.
I agree that Ron has been shown to be somewhat shallow (though IMO only in a limited capacity in the first half of GoF). Does that mean to say that the boy is never able to move on from that and mature and develop. Or is he to be forever labelled as shallow because of a couple of incidents in one book, which incidentally are perfectly typical of teenage growing pains.

Mad I
September 6th, 2003, 12:20 am
How so? You lot were saying that the text shows that Ginny presumes to understand Harry in this scene. That simply cannot be proved by any of the text. She never says she understands Harry or his feelings, and I see no evidence that the "connotations" point to this direction. She simply says "I know what it's really like, I can help you if want to know what's really happening." That is the impression I got from this statement "You don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You Know Who, and I can tell you how it feels," and then the convo that followed.We simply disagree on the connotation of the statement. It is my feeling that by saying "I know what it feels like"...to be possesed, she is implying that she knows how Harry feels right now because she knows what it feels like to be posssesed and that is what happened to Harry. I can understand your interpretation but I still feel that my argument stands.

"Oh, stop feeling all misunderstood," said Hermione sharply. Page 499, Scholastic edition.

It seems like Hermione did more presuming about Harry's feelings than Ginny did. I'm not saying Hermione did anything wrong, I am simply pointing out errors in the idea that Ginny claimed to understand Harry, and Hermione did no such thing.As for this, I think Hermione only says this after trying to understand Harry and have him be rather rude to her: OotP American Edition, Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward: "How're you feeling" asked Hermione. "Fine," said Harry stiffly. "Oh, don't lie, Harry," she said impatiently. "Ron and Ginny say you've been hiding from everyone since you got back from St. Mungo's." ........(The taking turns looking at each other conversation)... "Very funny," snapped Harry, turning away. "Oh stop feeling all misunderstood," said Hermione sharply.Basically what I am saying is that it was a minor arguement and Hermione said that because Harry "snapped" at her and she said something back "sharply," but the point is in the beginning she was curious as to how Harry was feeling.
And as for the implications that Ginny "moves on to other guys after Harry" or is "easy" LOL!!! Oh my goodness. Seriously,it took four years for her to "go" (if you can even call it that) from Harry to Michael. It seems also that she was friends with Michael for several months before dating him. And Dean makes boyfriend number two. If you call that moving around, thats pretty sad. Two boyfriends in your history when approaching the age of 15 does NOT tell us that she is in Ron's precious words, a "scarlet woman."Here I don't think that you are talking about my comment but if you are you must have misinterpretted what I said...as a reminder: This is a topic that I talked about yesterday and I don't think that I stuck around long enough to get a response, does anyone find it weird that Ginny, who is one year younger than Ron, Harry, and Hermione, has dated as many people as all three of them combined?I take most of the blame for the interpretation because I should have made it clear that I was not saying that Ginny had dated alot but that the 3 main characters (who in my mind should be more socially active because of their roles as main characters or simply because that is just how many books are written, with the main characters dating more than most of the minor characters) aren't really dating alot. Ginny was simply a way of comparing someone who I would say is of "normal" dating speed. I'm sorry, but all of these things do not point to a shallow, easy girl who moves around a lot. Two boyfriends does not classify as moving around a lot. As a matter of fact, I think JKR used this idea of Ginny dating to point out that there are boys interested in her, that she has a genuinely fun, interesting, and caring personality, and that she is not some silly little girl who like Harry, and that's all we will ever know.That's how I see it. I fail to see your points here, other posters. This just further enhances my above point saying that Ginny is of "normal" dating speed and I would like to add a very nice girl as well. I wasn't trying to bash Ginny at all, in fact I am willing to defend almost any decision she has made or whatever because I do regard her as a person of a sound mind.
Ginny was not "chucked out of the first four books." She was defnitly still there. Like JK has proven before with Sirius, Lupin, and countless others, absence in a certain part of Harry's life means nothing when we talk about potential importance. Sirius was less there than Ginny was for a part of the seriesVery good point!
Has it occured to you there might be an appropriate time for these things to come into full view?Yet again, good point! (pretty much the same one but still....)
Has it occured to you that what may be more telling is that Harry has known Hermione pretty well for five years and STILL isn't interested in her??? Unfortunately I disagree with you yet again because there has been no reason for Harry to have any romantic intersest in anyone so far. That same argument could be made against Ginny considering Harry technically met her before he met Hermione (at platform 9 3/4 BEFORE he goes on the train and meets Hermione) so there has been longer for a relationship to start there than many people perceive (though I do concede that he spent an entire year's worth of time compared to 10 seconds in SS/PS).

LoonyLuna15
September 6th, 2003, 12:42 am
Oh, I'm sad now!:upset: A lot of people in here really go for the H/Hr pairing which, sadly, I hate. H/Hr is a disaster waiting to happen, and I'm not just saying that, I see signs of that. R/Hr would work, but for how long, I wonder?
Personally, my favorite ship is H/L! :love:That whole conversation between them at the end led me to believe Harry likes Luna... But based on other evidence I stay true to this philosophy:
Harry ended up liking Luna, but Luna likes Ron. The relatiohship with Ron is hopeless, because he is totally focused on Hermione, who may have some feelings for Harry, who doesn't notice because he is too fixated on Luna!
Yes, I definiately think that will happen. I KNOW there will be confusing love triangles, circles, squares w/e. We know JK will do that to us...that's so like her. :lol:

Mad I
September 6th, 2003, 12:49 am
Oh, I'm sad now! A lot of people in here really go for the H/Hr pairing which, sadly, I hate. H/Hr is a disaster waiting to happen, and I'm not just saying that, I see signs of that. R/Hr would work, but for how long, I wonder?
Personally, my favorite ship is H/L! That whole conversation between them at the end led me to believe Harry likes Luna... But based on other evidence I stay true to this philosophy:
Harry ended up liking Luna, but Luna likes Ron. The relatiohship with Ron is hopeless, because he is totally focused on Hermione, who may have some feelings for Harry, who doesn't notice because he is too fixated on Luna!
Yes, I definiately think that will happen. I KNOW there will be confusing love triangles, circles, squares w/e. We know JK will do that to us...that's so like her.I suppose that this is a possibility, weird as it sounds. But, I don't think that it will happen quite simply because it will distract from the story too much. Even in the marathon OotP there wasn't THAT much time devoted to major dating such as Harry and Cho. I realize that there were probably hundreds of references to it and other possible relationships but the truth is that there weren't that many encounters that involved dating or anything extremely close to it in the book and the rumors are as of now that Book 6 will be shorter than Book 5 and there is still alot of other stuff to cover.

Polaris15
September 6th, 2003, 12:57 am
[[And Polaris15, Ginny was not "chucked out of the first four books." She was defnitly still there.]]

Exactly. She's just "there" but she was not developed. IMO, that is the same thing as being "chucked out" as a background character. In literature, there are two types of characters: round and flat. Ginny is definitely a flat character; she is a caricature; she doesn't show gradual change or development. Her characterization in OotP appears too contrived. Instead of building Ginny up like Neville, Ginny's new characteristics seemed to appear out of nowhere.

[[Like JK has proven before with Sirius, Lupin, and countless others, absence in a certain part of Harry's life means nothing when we talk about potential importance.]]

I agree, but can you give me more examples of the "countless others?" The two examples you've provided don't prove your point because both Sirius and Lupin had more interaction with Harry than Ginny did.

[[Sirius was less there than Ginny was for a part of the series.]]

Sirius isn't introduced until PoA, but once Sirius is introduced, he instanteously became an important part of Harry's life. Even when he's on the run, Sirius risked his life to remain in contact with Harry. There were frequent letter exchanges and even a few visits in GoF. Sirius' place in Harry's heart is much higher than Ginny's, if Ginny even has a spot in Harry's heart.

[[All indications from our beloved Miss Rowling are that we will learn more about Ginny.]]

About time.

[[Has it occured to you there might be an appropriate time for these things to come into full view?]]

It depends on your definition of "appropriate", because it would've been appropriate for JKR to develope Ginny's character after CoS. It would've been appropriate to give Ginny a bigger role in PoA and GoF. It could've been appropriate to show some interaction between Ginny and the trio prior to OotP; however, it is *not* appropriate to squish everything into the two last books.

[[ Has it occured to you that what may be more telling is that Harry has known Hermione pretty well for five years and STILL isn't interested in her???]]

Has it ever occurred to you that Harry *knew* about Ginny's crush for five long years but never sought to return those feelings; not even when he was *desperate* for a date for the Yule Ball?

[[i'm not downplaying Hermy's importance, she's very important. But just because she has been the central female doesn't mean she will end up with the Boy Who Lived.]]

I'm not basing my argument on their roles, but on their character. I think it is extremely important that Hermione wasn't like Ginny. Hermione *didn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived. Hermione *couldn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived. Hermione *wouldn't* have a crush on the Boy Who Lived, and Hermione will *never* have a crush on The Boy Who Lived.
However, Hermione *could* love Harry. Hermione *does* love Harry. If Hermione ends up with Harry, it is because she loves *Harry*, just Harry.

Daveydee
September 6th, 2003, 1:05 am
Quote from DaveyDee:
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As for Mad-I Moody's explanation of Harry's cluelessness, I have to say it's a perfectly valid alternative view. Unless of course you're suggesting that he's not clueless in that department.
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Daveydee,

I realize that I tend to be very rigorous with expository discussion; that's how I was trained, that's how I organize my thoughts. I can assure you that I intend no offense by it. That was not a personal attack against Mad-I Moody; I'll be happy to explain my position.

Mad-I Moody chose to respond to a question that I asked you:

Quote from BlackKnight86:
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Are you saying he doesn't care? Is that what you mean by "it's between Hermione and Ron after all"? He doesn't care enough for it to

even cross his mind once?
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with the answer:

Quote from Mad-I Moody:
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I can't speak for daveydee, of course, but I'd like to offer my opinion on this. Harry, as we have discovered in OotP, is a bit...erm...dense when it comes to matters of the heart. He doesn't understand the overly emotional Cho. He doesn't seem to understand, very well, typical boy/girl romantic interactions.
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The phrase "dense in matters of the heart" is neither denotative nor definitive. I could assume the implications - "dense" implies a slowness or difficulty in understanding - a dubious application to Harry, IMO - while "matters of the heart" implies romantic matters.
I would interpret that as Mad-I Moody's meaning, adequately phrased as it was in a colloquial manner.

However, neither phrase is precisely defined or specific enough to apply to my question without further clarification; and the only specific fact that Mad-I Moody mentioned as clarification was that Harry "doesn't understand the overly emotional Cho". Absent was any indication of what he didn't understand and why; also, there was no indication as to why this lack of understanding was a character flaw on Harry's part, and thus could interfere with his understanding of his friends' feelings.
I suspect that Mad-I Moody's point (and she may choose to correct me on this) was that Harry's 'denseness', or lack of experience, if you like, in matters of the heart cuts across all aspects of that arena. As much in terms of his perceptions of those around him, as in his own interactions.

Perhaps he didn't understand Cho because she was a complete flake at the time due to Cedric's death (not bashing, just a suggested possibility). Perhaps none of Harry's male peers would have understood her, either...who knows? The point is, Mad-I Moody stated an opinion as if it were fact and backed it up with one tepid example from the text and one very general statement about romantic stereotypes. Moreover, the stated opinion appeared to be specific to Harry's personal POV (ie. his own romantic interest in Cho) vice his observation of Hermione's and Ron's feelings (objective observation is not necessarily affected by personal subjectivity), which was the subject of my questions. Absent further clarification, I can neither relate the explanation to my question, nor can I even accept the explanation as even being true. Notice that I didn't question the possibility of the explanation; nor did I question the potential validity of the deductive argument that rested behind the explanation (which wasn't stated, so I never got the chance to see it). I questioned the validity of the explanation (valid - "containing premises from which the conclusion may logically be derived") because I saw no logical path from which Mad-I Moody's conclusion was derived. Oh, and, by the way, unless and until you explain to me the meaning and intent behind your use of the word "clueless", I most certainly do dispute your assertion that Harry is, in fact, "clueless" in that department.
Mad-I Moody's example was given from text. I don't believe it's fair to say that it was a tepid example to support her view. This is further reinforced by Harry's approach to Cho in GoF, where she wasn't a 'complete flake', and where he appeared equally awkward and clueless - "Wangobawime"

Anyway, Daveydee, I can understand your frustration about having to go over and over the same points, but I have to say that I think the reason we do this is because the thread is not organized. I surfed the thread for quite some time before I joined; in fact, I have parts 2-4 for this thread in text documents (I'm compiling them for research purposes). Even still, until I finish my organization, it's a little difficult to refer to others' past posts (covering what...2 to 3 thousand pages?). In my first post ever I made the proposal that we have a more formal, structured debate; and it was rejected for the reason that people enjoyed the informality. Now that's fine; but it's bound to make things a bit harder to track.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we're all perfectly happy with the thread as it is. You only need look at a site such as Portkey to see how stultified a forum which is overly-organised can become. Verbose statements followed by lots of very like-minded people telling you how wonderful you are and how much they agree with your words of wisdom. Wonderful for the ego. Rather less wonderful for varied and stimulating dicussion.

I did read your post on page one; yes, it's an interesting theory. However, there aren't any facts in it. Debating opinions without facts is like debating favorite colors - it can't really be done. In fairness to you and to your position, however, I will go back over my thread files and research what you had to say.
Ah, the Luna, Ron & Hermione theory. Yes of course it's only a theory. But as I keep saying this is Predictions and Theories. But it was indeed based on solid canonic evidence from OotP and extrapolation of that evidence.

While I'm doing that, if you know of a compilation of canon evidence for R/Hr, I'd appreciate a link, if you wouldn't mind...I like to be thorough!
There are five very good compilations. You will probably find them on your bookshelf. :lol:

Polaris15
September 6th, 2003, 1:07 am
[[I agree that Ron has been shown to be somewhat shallow (though IMO only in a limited capacity in the first half of GoF). Does that mean to say that the boy is never able to move on from that and mature and develop. Or is he to be forever labelled as shallow because of a couple of incidents in one book, which incidentally are perfectly typical of teenage growing pains]]

I never said that Ron is superficial 24/7; notice my use of "at times". Still, you haven't answered my question.

Mad I
September 6th, 2003, 1:12 am
Ah, the Luna, Ron & Hermione theory. Yes of course it's only a theory. But as I keep saying this is Predictions and Theories. But it was indeed based on solid canonic evidence from OotP and extrapolation of that evidence.
Quote:
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While I'm doing that, if you know of a compilation of canon evidence for R/Hr, I'd appreciate a link, if you wouldn't mind...I like to be thorough!
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There are five very good compilations. You will probably find them on your bookshelf. :) I am sure that someone who ships R/Hr wouldn't mind supplying everyone with endless bits of evidence supporting their views.

LoonyLuna15
September 6th, 2003, 1:13 am
Polaris15, thank you for this: " Has it occured to you that what may be more telling is that Harry has known Hermione pretty well for five years and STILL isn't interested in her???"
Yes, HAS anyone noticed that? There has been no feelings for her all throughout the series, and none for Ginny either! No, I definately believe in the Harry/Luna relatiohship. JKR says SPECIFICALLY in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix that Harry felt sorry for Luna, and was comfortable talking about Sirius with her. (REMEMBER HE DIDN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT WITH RON, HERMIONE OR GINNY!!!!) Also, Harry is willinging to help Luna look for her stuff, rather than avoiding her (Like usual) and even willing to spend more time with her. It even noted that when they left the conversation, the knot in Harry's stomache loosened a bit...
I also think Luna knows more than she lets on. She is definatley hiding something, and she KNOWS something about death... She mentioned the people beyond the veil, and Harry realized that even though Luna believed so many extra-ordinary things, that she could be right... JKR says that plain and clear...anyone agree?

Mad I
September 6th, 2003, 1:20 am
Yes, HAS anyone noticed that? There has been no feelings for her all throughout the series, and none for Ginny either! No, I definately believe in the Harry/Luna relatiohship. JKR says SPECIFICALLY in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix that Harry felt sorry for Luna, and was comfortable talking about Sirius with her. (REMEMBER HE DIDN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT WITH RON, HERMIONE OR GINNY!!!!) This isn't exactly a very good thing to base a relationship on. Plus, this is only one encounter between these two people while there are hundreds for other ships (not to say that H/L isn't a possiblity I just don't think that it has the development of the other relationships).

Polaris15
September 6th, 2003, 1:21 am
[[Verbose statements followed by lots of very like-minded people telling you how wonderful you are and how much they agree with your words of wisdom.]]

Rather different from Sugarquill eh?

Sirius83
September 6th, 2003, 1:24 am
Well, personally I don't think that pity is a good basis for a romantic relationship. I'm sure they'll become friends but not much more.

However, here's a question for you LoonyLuna15. :)

Looks aren't really important when it comes down to it at the end, especially when the person has been your best friend for years. It's a matter of what's on the inside, the beauty on the outside doens't matter because they've already gotten to know the person. Over the course of OOTP, we saw two very interesting things. Harry had a dream in which his crush, Cho, turned into Hermione - who interestingly was also making him realise how silly the whole ordeal with Cho was. In addition to this, we also learned he has a part of his mind that speaks in Hermione's voice. Now that he's over Cho, don't you think it likely that Harry will realise just how much Hermione means to him, and these could be indicators that show Hermione means more to him than just a friend? I think these instances were there to show us Harry's subconcious. To show us, the readers, what he himself isn't aware of yet.

haycheng
September 6th, 2003, 1:24 am
At least I think I can agree how wonderful most people here are. Not that we are very like minded though....

To Polaris15
by the way it is how to use the quote function
This is a quote
except e at the end of quot=quote

PS: To polaris15. there is not free luch!!you get free beer but actually they steal you blood and sell it when you are asleep!! Be warm!!

LoonyLuna15
September 6th, 2003, 1:26 am
:shrug:Yeah, I realize basing a H/L ship on ONE convo is kinda stupid, but hey, I am kinda stupid.

But I also noticed something else...:rolleyes:

Luna Lovegood is mentioned A LOT!!!!!!!!!:D I mean, I was just flipping through the book one day and she was mentioned on pretty much every page. :censored:!!! Even if JKR doesn't plan a H/L ship, she is DEFINITELY VERY important... like I said, there is more to Luna that meets the eye.:p

Polaris15
September 6th, 2003, 1:27 am
[[Polaris15, thank you for this: " Has it occured to you that what may be more telling is that Harry has known Hermione pretty well for five years and STILL isn't interested in her???"]]

Undeserved. Really. You should thank DumbledoretheWise...he deserves all the credit...really.

By the way, if anyone is confused, I'm a true H/Hr shipper.
Is there space on the HMS Harmony for one more devoted shipper?

LoonyLuna15
September 6th, 2003, 1:30 am
Another quicky: Yes, I suppose H/Hr is possible, but I don't support it... somehow I don't see it. Sorry, I just don't! From the very beggining I never saw it, and I still don't. I really ship for R/Hr though, even though Ron is slightly ignorant. JKR also says that Ron says things to Hermione frequently in "Adoration." :p

ana_banana
September 6th, 2003, 1:30 am
First of all, I want to apologize if you guys thought I was calling you blind or something cuz im certainly not and I dont want any problems here so....
I don't believe Harry and Luna might happen...but with JK everythings impossible, so you never know. I ort of see Luna with Neville because of how she is, that dreamy attitude fits perfectly with Neville not to say it doesn't with Harry. I'm still a h/g shipper though.....

Sirius83
September 6th, 2003, 1:32 am
Oh, I think R/Hr can possibly happen, but it would take a lot of work to make it believable for me, and I think JKR has laid an awful lot more groundwork for H/Hr. Not to mention it's not just lying on the surface, but if you take a second look, it's all laid out really. I think H/Hr is more likely in canon...and I'm a true H/Hr shipper! :)

Polaris15: Of course! There's always room for more on the Harmony! Welcome aboard, and drinks are free!

Mad I
September 6th, 2003, 1:38 am
Well, personally I don't think that pity is a good basis for a romantic relationship. I'm sure they'll become friends but not much more.Exactly what I was saying :) I think these instances were there to show us Harry's subconcious. To show us, the readers, what he himself isn't aware of yet.Very good point

Luna Lovegood is mentioned A LOT!!!!!!!!! I mean, I was just flipping through the book one day and she was mentioned on pretty much every page. !!! Even if JKR doesn't plan a H/L ship, she is DEFINITELY VERY important... like I said, there is more to Luna that meets the eye.
I agree with this in that I think that Luna will become a valuable asset to Harry in the future.