Layers in Harry Potter

I dunno... maybe Harry's mysterious power did come into play that night. I've just reread the cemetery scene in GoF and there are so many occurences, otherwise unexplainable, that can only be attributed to this power - and these things occurred despite the fact Harry did not consciously call them into being.

When Harry get's emotional, he's a bomb! Remember how the house in Godric's Hollow was destroyed? And Petunia fear that if they left Harry home alone they would come home and find the house in ruins? Harry says, "I won't blow up the house," but Petunia is unimpressed. What does she know?
Fred, George and ever Harry himself believe he is a weapon. What is everyone in the order guarding? They weren't guarding that prophesy the night of the brouhaha, but they are always guarding Harry. He's the bomb.

When Harry get's emotional, he's a bomb! Remember how the house in Godric's Hollow was destroyed? And Petunia fear that if they left Harry home alone they would come home and find the house in ruins? Harry says, "I won't blow up the house," but Petunia is unimpressed. What does she know?
Fred, George and ever Harry himself believe he is a weapon. What is everyone in the order guarding? They weren't guarding that prophesy the night of the brouhaha, but they are always guarding Harry. He's the bomb.

If as people say that Harry did things without knowing he was doing them, then you are right, he is a bomb, and more dangerous than I thought, he is a danger to everyone, more so a danger to his friend, as he could suddenly "go off" without knowing why,
I wonder if this is this why Dumbledore wanted Snape to teach him control of his mind and therefore control of his emotions. He might go off in an effort to protect his friend and instead of saving them he might kill them in the process. Come to think of this it could have already happened

When Harry get's emotional, he's a bomb! Remember how the house in Godric's Hollow was destroyed? And Petunia fear that if they left Harry home alone they would come home and find the house in ruins? Harry says, "I won't blow up the house," but Petunia is unimpressed. What does she know?
Fred, George and ever Harry himself believe he is a weapon. What is everyone in the order guarding? They weren't guarding that prophesy the night of the brouhaha, but they are always guarding Harry. He's the bomb.

I don't think I'd go so far as to describe Harry as a weapon. Sounds too much like Neo and, besides, Harry only thought that for a brief time after he experienced the attack on Arthur Weasley.

As for the Order members on guard duty, they weren't doing much of a job of guarding anything the night Harry and the kids went to the Department of Mysteries, were they?

Already happened how, Froggy?

I see Harry as a danger only to Voldemort. His good heart protects him from doing damage to those he cares about. In fact, what you've just said is the precise reason I couldn't buy into this Baby-Harry-Demolishing-the-House theory the first time it surfaced. If Harry is that much of a danger, he'd be locked up for study in the Department of Mysteries.

I agree; I think his power, like all wizard powers seem to do, develops with Harry's age. I believe the shape of the house is down to the backfire and nothing more. The AK has never backfired before, so it wouldn't be surprising that the results were unpredictable. It's not as if VD endured the AK just because the AK was the curse that failed, after all. Harry's the only survivor of an AK attack. VD survived something else entirely, the distortion of that curse as it rebounded. It doesn't necessarily follow that VD survived a "reflected" AK that is exactly the same in size or substance as the original curse he aimed at Harry.

I don't think I'd go so far as to describe Harry as a weapon. Sounds too much like Neo and, besides, Harry only thought that for a brief time after he experienced the attack on Arthur Weasley.

As for the Order members on guard duty, they weren't doing much of a job of guarding anything the night Harry and the kids went to the Department of Mysteries, were they?

Already happened how, Froggy?

I see Harry as a danger only to Voldemort. His good heart protects him from doing damage to those he cares about. In fact, what you've just said is the precise reason I couldn't buy into this Baby-Harry-Demolishing-the-House theory the first time it surfaced. If Harry is that much of a danger, he'd be locked up for study in the Department of Mysteries.

If part of Harry's power is the ability to influence others into doing his bidding, then leading them in to danger at the MoM comes to mind, but as for killing friends due to his emotional instability then Sirius Black springs to mind, but my main thrust is of course the Harry instigated the attack theory is a clear example of uncontrolled magic happening,

I have seen it banded about that AK does little real damage to objects (minor fires and the like) but very few people accept the Rebounded curse theory (converting Lord Voldemort in to energy and levelling the house that way), so we are left with uncontrolled magic.

As Harry was the only survivor he must been the source of that magic, and Lord Voldemort for some as yet unexplained reason didn't want to kill Lily Evans, so perhaps he didn't, Harry as a baby saw someone threatening his mommy and went off, with a green flash.

Perhaps there was no AK everyone assumed that there must have been because there was two or more dead bodies in the house with no marks on them, but James might have been the only one to die by Voldemort's hand that night, Voldemort might have fired the curse and missed by a hair but it
coincided with baby Harry's panic, result Harry going off and the Dark Lord being atomised along with parts of the house,

Harry would not remember any of this, but to block it out of his mind totally, I have concerns about this, hidden in his mind somewhere is what really happened, is he brave enough to look.

I interpret DD's remarks to mean that the curse did rebound. It's possible that semantics may come more into play than they have heretofor, though. I'd need someone to convince me that we should think Harry blatantly misinterprets DD.

The things I was referring to when I mentioned Harry's not consciously calling his power into play are pretty glaring in the cemetery scene. Priori Incantatum caused the wands to connect and if, as Dumbledore said, "their owners force them to do battle, a very rare effect will take place. One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed - in reverse order... " We saw the connection and saw the Harry and Voldemort battle, with Harry gaining the mastery.

Virtually everything else that happened - the levitation of the duelers away from the hallowed ground of the graves, the splintering of the connecting beam of light into the golden web, the summoning of the phoenix song, and, most incredible of all, the behavior of the victims of Voldemort's wand - all of these things are, I believe, part and parcel of Harry's power... the power he has in such abundance and Voldemort has not at all.

Those victims were supposed to come out of the wand and evaporate into mist or just float around the general area, as the Dark Mark did after the World Cup. Those people Voldemort killed were not supposed to verbally encourage Harry to "hold on," or "don't break the connection," nor were they supposed to form an inner ring separating Voldemort and his death eaters and certainly were not supposed to be hissing curses at them.

And there is the matter of the portkey. One-way transportation as best we've been able to ascertain... yet this particular portkey had a return trip to Hogwarts. Most peculiarly, James and Lily knew this tidbit of information - yet Voldemort did not!

These are the kinds of things I believe are clearly the power Harry possesses. But note they are not nuclear types of explosive powers. The power is quieter but also devastating to Voldemort.

Come to think of this it could have already happened
Not inconcievable, but he didn't kill Lily. Dumbledore said that Voldemort shed her blood. If Harry had killed her, Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to do the Petunia "house where your mother's house dwells" thing that protects Harry from Voldemort because he shed Lily's blood. However, witnessing his mother's death may have set Harry off.

And Harry doesn't develop powers. But he does need to learn to control the unknown power.

Not inconcievable, but he didn't kill Lily. Dumbledore said that Voldemort shed her blood.

And the wand prove it, but my points are still valid, there is so much we don't know about everything, and we can not afford to discount someone else theory just because we don't like it. JKR can and will make happen and explain it away, just about any way she pleases,

Unquestionably. This debate has been going on in a friendly manner, for some time now. No need for alarm. :D

I believe that wizards were born with a spark that develops in intensity until it's unleashed in an uncontrolled manner, that when this begins to happen, the burgeoning witch or wizard needs to begin a formal education to develop their power fully. Development merely suggests the growth and ordering of something pre-existing. I'm not sure if we're not understanding each other, Whiz, or if you actually disagree with this assessment.

I don't know.

I'm pretty sure that Harry's emotions are the trigger for what we have come to think of as wild or wandless magic, uncontrolled magic. As he learns to control his emotions, as for producing a Patronus or a Ridikkulus charm, Harry will become increasingly able to use all his powers, innate, inherited, transfered and unknown to the dark lord, etc., to produce the results he desires. I'm not sure if that's true of all magical folk or not. Perhaps. Maybe it's just not so evident in other youngsters because Harry is particularly powerful.

It does make me think of Hagrid and his expressions about being "trained all up."

Shall I??? I don't think I called it Harry gen .... didn't I name it "Anti-Voldi-gen"? Anyhow.... here it goes Liselle I hope I still can put it together...

"working" from the fact that there is some very special protection that works for Harry and protects him from Voldemort - I was saying that it could be possible that Voldemort made some great mistake when he used Harrys blood. The protection still works this way even if some of the blood is now in Voldemort. It works for Harry and against Voldemort regardless of the body it is in. So Voldemort now has some "Anti-Voldi-gen" inside. Maybe something that works slowly, that changes "things" in Voldemort, that makes him maybe vulnerable to certain things. Maybe it "cracks" open the hard shell and makes it impossible for Voldemort to hurt (stay in ) a body so full of love. Or maybe it prevents Voldemort from harming Harry without himself even being aware of it. He sure tried when he possessed Harry but he couldn't continue.

I am not so sure about the effect of the "Anti-Voldi-Gen" but I'm quite sure that Dumbledores triumphant gleam has something to do with Voldemort having made some biiiiiiiiig mistake in taking Harrys blood.

I love it! Exactly what I was trying to get across, once again Voldie was stupidly rash and didn't think through the consequences of his actions! Brilliant!!


Then how did he and the snake disappear from the Department of Mysteries after the attack on Arthur Weasley? If Voldemeort fled, which he obviously did, where did the snake go? How did it escape? Well, it couldn't have without it's human personage, so why couldn't Tonks and the other aurors find it during their exhaustive search of the place?

For that matter, how the heck did he/they get into the Ministry in the first place. Voldemort couldn't have dialed 62442 while possessing the snake, and isn't it likely someone would see a snake that large slithering down the street, even late at night? Remember, this snake had a mouth large enough to bite into a man's torso and crush ribs.

that is the million dollar question (one of many!), yes Voldie could have been the snake himself but I'm not sure he was ready to risk everything that early and go to the ministry himself, not while he was trying to get others to do his bidding. No he couldn't have gone and dialled on the phone and gone down....isn't there a chance that he sent the snake via the floo network or sent someone with the snake via the floo network? We know that he has people inside the ministry and the Floo regulation department would be a great one to have onside.....Send the snake in (with or without a minder), attack Arthur while trying to get what you're looking for....however Harry sees this in his minds eye which Voldie realises meaning that he has to get the Snake out of there asap.....I'm sure there would be a super aparating spell that could be used even to get the snake back to the fireplace and home.....


I believe Luna's mom was an unspeakable, and she was experimenting with Lily's ancient magic, which caused the room to fill with the power, and caused Luna's mom's death. This gives us another nice connection between Luna and Harry and explains the power in the room. Luna was somehow a witness to this accident and that's why Luna's dad has a distaste for the MoM and why Luna is so knowledgeable (or just plain crazy)

I like that one you know....there's more to Luna than just her random ramblings...course I've no idea how she would have seen this power killing her mother.....but its definitely a :tu:

I do agree that Harry was born with the power to vanquish Voldie (however I believe that Neville was too, it just happens that Voldie got to the Potters first)....the prophecy was made before Harry and Neville were born meaning it was "known" that it would happen.....Voldie definitely turned on the power in Harry by choosing him as his opponant. As I posted before, both Voldie and Harry have survived 16 years together on the same planet but now that both of them are getting stronger, its becomming more and more difficult. Yes in essence they may be divided but my guess is that it won't be for too long more. As Harry gains his power and becomes more adapt and as Voldie begins another reign of terror, it gets harder for both of them to co-exist.

don't get me started on wands....its my hobby horse!

edit: As for book 6 I had heard that it was due out next year so it would be ootp.....movie POA....book6 but we can but hope it will be sooner!

Okay, going back a bit in an attempt to catch up

I kind of agree with Doggy, here. The scar is a "mark" of Harry's equality, not the cause of it. The powers he gets from VD are helpful, but the power he already has in abundance is the only one that really matters at the end. A "mark" or cypher is only significant in its symbolic/representational quality. It signifies, means. But it doesn't have complete autonomy unless it's the power to make others "believe" in what it stands for. What it stands for may be arbitrary or ambiguous, but it's power is that of language, representation, or symbolism. The mark refers to something, and that "something" is what is important; it's not simply self-referential.

EDIT: Think The Scarlet Letter. It wouldn't mean anything without the act of adultery that it signifies. OR: The mark is just a sign, like STOP, it doesn't mean anything other than the action it requires. :elaugh:
when you put it like that Vigilence I have to say I agree with you....The scar is only the physical manifestation of the "mark" by Voldemort
I'm going to try to relate these posts to the discussion that came after, regarding the nature of the connection between Harry and Voldemort, and how "possession" does or does not enter the picture.

Now, as Vigilance makes clear, the meaning of the mark is not given in the mark itself (though there is that thorny issue of its resemblance to the rune Sowelu and the fact that in symbol-systems that use runes, the "mark" actually is the thing represented, i.e. making the mark does the thing), but we also know that the meaning becomes determined by context and usage: who is using this sign and for what end, how is it understood by others who see it, etc.

We don't know the origin of the mark on Harry's forehead. It is, to be sure, a result of his first encounter with Voldemort, and we have much textual evidence (thanks to purplehawk) to suggest that many people, including Dumbledore, believe that Voldemort "gave" Harry the mark, that is marked Harry in the most literal sense. The prophecy tells us that the Dark Lord will mark the one as his equal, but of course, as we have discussed in great depth, the marking referred to in the prophecy could have a whole range of meanings. But even in the first, literal sense, does the fact that Voldemort "marked" Harry have to imply that the mark was a direct effect of Voldemort's actions?

errg, getting bogged down. Let me try another angle:
Isn't it possible that the "sign" which is Harry's scar operates not just metaphorically, that is as a symbol for the real thing which is Harry's and/or Voldemort's power, power that operates independently of the scar, and would operate whether or not the scar were there to represent it, but rather that the scar operates metonymically, i.e. it participates in that power, it is part of the power. Given that the nature of this power is so ambiguous, that it seems to be a conjunction of pure good (the mother's love for her infant) and pure evil (greed for absolute power), a product both of chance and deliberate calculation (perhaps on both Voldemort's and Lily's parts), there is no way that the "mark" can really be a simple sign, since the other possibilities for what it might mean are always lurking?

I still see "The one with the power approaches..." as being open to interpretation, and doesn't neccessarily mean he approaches with the power intact.

Regarding the rebounded AK, I have no problem believing it was responsible for destroying the Godric's Hollow house. We have seen with living flesh (A person or a living critter) that the AK merely ends life, no marks, no devastation, no nothing but ending life. However, we have also seen that a non-living object (wether animated or not) is destroyed, shattered etc. When Dumbledore was throwing statues and things in front of the AK (Even when the AK hit the wooden table) thoses things were all structurally damaged. So Whiz's theory (Possibly Purplehawk and/or Sabine have also espoused this) that HArry takes negative/evil power and it turns it around to good, falls into place here. Voldie shoots the AK at Harry, Baby HArry absorbed it, and spit the curse back up, leaving the scar/Sowelu Rune on his forehead, as the rebounded/altered power left his body, burning the symbol into his forehead. It makes perfect sense to me that if it was altered and powerful enough to rip Voldemort from his body the house wouldn't have stood a chance, since living flesh holds up much better under an AK than non-living items.

Post 1415, only 85 more posts to go, before the Mods move us into a shiny new thread.

that is the million dollar question (one of many!), yes Voldie could have been the snake himself but I'm not sure he was ready to risk everything that early and go to the ministry himself, not while he was trying to get others to do his bidding. No he couldn't have gone and dialled on the phone and gone down....isn't there a chance that he sent the snake via the floo network or sent someone with the snake via the floo network? We know that he has people inside the ministry and the Floo regulation department would be a great one to have onside.....Send the snake in (with or without a minder), attack Arthur while trying to get what you're looking for....however Harry sees this in his minds eye which Voldie realises meaning that he has to get the Snake out of there asap.....I'm sure there would be a super aparating spell that could be used even to get the snake back to the fireplace and home.....

Liselle, a couple of things here. This particular snake came in through the lifts in the MoM, "gliding between shining metal bars, across dark, cold stone... It was dark, et he could see objects around him shimmering in strange, vibrant colors... " That passage appears on p.462 of OotP and, thus, it seems to bear out my premise.

A snake that large would be quite heavy. I read a news story recently about a 21-foot reticulated python which weighed 800+ pounds. Why do I bring up the weight issue? Just how fast do you think that snake could travel anywhere under its own steam.

No, I think Voldemort transformed into the snake. He couldn't have merely possessed it, because, if he had done so and then fled the snake's body, the snake - this slow ponderous massive beast - would be left to get out on its own. That, I think, is an impossibility.

I do agree that Harry was born with the power to vanquish Voldie (however I believe that Neville was too, it just happens that Voldie got to the Potters first)....the prophecy was made before Harry and Neville were born meaning it was "known" that it would happen.....Voldie definitely turned on the power in Harry by choosing him as his opponant. As I posted before, both Voldie and Harry have survived 16 years together on the same planet but now that both of them are getting stronger, its becomming more and more difficult. Yes in essence they may be divided but my guess is that it won't be for too long more. As Harry gains his power and becomes more adapt and as Voldie begins another reign of terror, it gets harder for both of them to co-exist.

I'm of two minds on the issue of whether it could have been Neville or Harry. I still lean toward the fact the prophecy might have meant either of them and Voldemort's choice is what made the difference. Neville's current "coming of age," at least magically, seems to bear this out. I see him becoming one of Harry's best and strongest allies in the battles yet to come. Dumbledore speaks compellingly of the choice Voldemort made - and as choice is a recurring theme in Rowling's story, even those who prefer the theory that Harry was always the one the prophecy spoke of cannot ignore its significance.

Phoenix, I'm not ignoring your post. Just haven't been able to figure out how I want to respond yet. :p

I still see "The one with the power approaches..." as being open to interpretation, and doesn't neccessarily mean he approaches with the power intact.

So do I, Sindatur.

No, I think Voldemort transformed into the snake. He couldn't have merely possessed it, because, if he had done so and then fled the snake's body, the snake - this slow ponderous massive beast - would be left to get out on its own. That, I think, is an impossibility.

I do not think Voldemort transformed into the snake. That possibility I think was eliminated. I think Voldemort may of had the snake take some other route out of the MoM or disapparated (apparated) the snake out of the MoM. Voldemort has servants who know that place inside and out and the snake while big can still fit into place where other wizards could not. Voldemort did not want to be exposed going into the Ministry of Magic, he would not take the chance.

I do agree that Harry was born with the power to vanquish Voldie (however I believe that Neville was too, it just happens that Voldie got to the Potters first)....the prophecy was made before Harry and Neville were born meaning it was "known" that it would happen.....Voldie definitely turned on the power in Harry by choosing him as his opponant.

This confuses me endlessly. The prophesy states, "the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches." One, not a couple of choices or possibilities, not whoever Voldemort gets to first. One. Only one. And he is endowed with the power to fulfill his destiny as he approaches. Before he was born.

Therefore, it's safe to assume that
1. Harry was capable of defending himself from birth, and

2. had Voldemort gone after Neville first, Neville would no longer be with us. He is not the one with the power. He never was.

I still see "The one with the power approaches..." as being open to interpretation, and doesn't neccessarily mean he approaches with the power intact.

Whether or not the mark on Harry's head is a sowelo rune or something else is open to interpretation. A flat out statement like the first line of the prophesy seems pretty well defined. What other possibility is there?

"One" really means more than one choice?
"with the power" really means someone or other will get a power at some later date?
"approaches" applies to some tense other than present?

I don't understand how this can be interpreted any other way.

Shoot me.

I'm probably wrong again but it seems to me that the one was always Harry and it was never Neville. There has only ever been one one and if it is Harry now, then it always was.

I do not think Voldemort transformed into the snake. That possibility I think was eliminated. I think Voldemort may of had the snake take some other route out of the MoM or disapparated (apparated) the snake out of the MoM. Voldemort has servants who know that place inside and out and the snake while big can still fit into place where other wizards could not. Voldemort did not want to be exposed going into the Ministry of Magic, he would not take the chance.

Okay, Sone. Voldemort was at Ministry of Magic that night. He and the snake.

"You seem to have visited the snake's mind because that was where the Dark Lord was at that particular moment," snarled Snape. "He was possessing the snake at the time and so you dreamed you were inside it too... "

I don't see how anything else could be argued.

Edit: Whiz... Oh, Whiz! What can I say? Nah... what won't I say? Yeah... that's better. Keep my fingers shut! :p

sindatur--makes sense to me.

pheonixsong--sounds like superstition to me. :D Those times when "making the mark" does the thing are usually ceremonial types of actions that are already invested with a plethora of cultural meaning before the mark is made; ergo, everyone involved in the meaning-making already knows what the mark and its making would mean? But that doesn't seem to be the case here. The actor doesn't know what the mark, whichever one of them it is who makes it, actually represents--and as far as we know, the receivers have no clue what it means either, other than that the child survived (which isn't the type of sign-act combo you want to explore). As for the lurking possibliity of other meanings, Derrida suggests that this is the case for all signs (in the linguistic sense)--that wouldn't be the reason that makes this sign "different" or also an agent/participant. I really dislike giving this effect/thingy on Harry's forehead so much agency. I see it sort of like arthritic knee during a weather change. It twinges, that's all. (But you probably know, pain is often used as the counterargument to much poststructuralist thought about language, sign-systems, and action. For those of you who have no clue what I'm talking about, I'll illustrate with Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin: The main character is named "Ai" which symbollically represents the "eye" of the observer or "I" of the narrator, but it also represents/is a cry of pain "aaiii!" which links the main character to his experiences directly. Does that make sense?)

So if Snpe says that voldemort was possessing the snake, does that mean that Voldemort didn't transform into the snake? At least, not on that occasion.

This is a toughie.

As for the scar, it is a mark symbolic of something, but but it also participates in Harry's experience of his battle with his nemesis. It's not just a tatoo, it's an active system that makes a contribution to events.

Purplehawk: Aw ..... C'mon. :grin:

I agree, Whiz. Voldemort was possessing the snake and, in that guise, visited the Department of Mysteries and attacked Arthur Weasley. We have that much in canon.

But was it a simple possession, as Voldemort himself admitted to doing many times over, or was it an animagus transformation? The latter makes the disappearance of the snake easier to explain.

"... they searched the whole area but they couldn't find the snake anywhere, it just seems to have vanished after it attacked you, Arthur... But You-Know-Who can't have expected a snake to get it, can he?"

"I reckon he sent it as a lookout," growled Moody, "'cause he's not had any luck so far, has he? No, I reckon he's trying to get a clearer picture of what he's facing and if Arthur hadn't been there the beast would've had much more time to look around... "

This confuses me endlessly. The prophesy states, "the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches." One, not a couple of choices or possibilities, not whoever Voldemort gets to first. One. Only one. And he is endowed with the power to fulfill his destiny as he approaches. Before he was born.

Therefore, it's safe to assume that
1. Harry was capable of defending himself from birth, and

2. had Voldemort gone after Neville first, Neville would no longer be with us. He is not the one with the power. He never was.


Whether or not the mark on Harry's head is a sowelo rune or something else is open to interpretation. A flat out statement like the first line of the prophesy seems pretty well defined. What other possibility is there?

"One" really means more than one choice?
"with the power" really means someone or other will get a power at some later date?
"approaches" applies to some tense other than present?

I don't understand how this can be interpreted any other way.

Shoot me.

I'm probably wrong again but it seems to me that the one was always Harry and it was never Neville. There has only ever been one one and if it is Harry now, then it always was.


BANG!
The prophecy is about one but it doesn't say that there couldn't be one of more children being born that would fulfill this criteria. Yes only one can ultimatley fulfill it but it was open to being Neville in my humble view.

Didn't Dumbledore say something about the fact that Voldie went for Harry first, that he CHOOSE Harry as his equal, the boy who would be more of a threat to him than any other (in this case Neville).....I do think its going to be a case of LOTR with Gollum ending up destroying the ring, not Frodo the carrier.....in terms of Harry Potter, Neville I feel will have a strong supporting role to play, Harry carries the burden of responsiblilty and of the prophecy leaving the way clear for Neville to do his bit.

Now I've argued myself around in a circle! Although Harry is the chose one then Neville will play a vital role that couldn't fall to anyone else because of this slightly opended-ness of the prophecy :)


edit: I take the points about the snake on board however seeing as its a magical world etc etc I think its possible that it could still have been as I hypothisised above....or maybe a port-key was used....that way if Voldie was posessing the snake he could portkey to the Mom and back again without leaving anything behind

Well as far as I can tell, Voldemort marked Harry as his equal by giving him that scar, because he transferred some of his power into Harry, but the power that Voldemort did not know of is what fried his body, his powers and the house. I'm sure that has already been said, but that is my opinion on the matter. Voldemort ultimately I think chose himself as the biggest threat to him.

Yes purplehawk, Voldemort was at the MoM, but only through possession and not being an animagus.

Bravo, Liselle! And my fingers are still shut. Somebody get Whiz off the floor!

Why would Voldemort need a Port Key? I'm sure he's quite an accomplished Apparator, involving a Port Key seems to increase the risk to me, more that could go wrong. As far as the snake goes, I'm not convinced either way, there's lot of Canon that leaves open the possibility that Voldemort can physically become a snake, and we know Voldemort has made a habit of possessing snakes. For all we know, Salazaar Slytherin may have been a half Breed (Half Wizard, half Snake) and Nagini may be related to the snake parent of Salazaar Slytherin. Perhaps this is why Parcelmouth runs in the Slytherin line, and why Tom Riddle has a habit of possessing snakes, drinking Snake milk, Red eyes and the whole bit.

If Voldemort became the snake, he could have transferred back to human form and then apparated out.

If Voldemort merely possessed the snake, he (or an agent of his) could have apparated the snake out.

It's only the Department of Mysteries itself, where Apparation is blocked. The Ministry of Magic has locations where you can indeed apparate in and out.

I do really have a problem with the assumption that just because Harry has a power, he'll know how to use it or that the power possessed would be strong enough to ultimately defeat VD in its infancy. By this logic, Harry could have completely annihilated VD already, despite any charms VD might have to make him immortal. But that didn't happen on their first meeting, and there's got to be a reason.
If VD's charms were the reason, then this means Harry doesn't have the power to defeat the Dark Lord at that time. Would this be an a problem with the prophecy?
If Harry's inability to control/use the power he has is the reason VD wasn't defeated, then the only real effect of the meeting between the two is the marking of Harry as VD's equal. But there's a reason that a timeline exists--born, marked, possible defeat; Harry has a power that will ultimately (maybe) defeat VD--though this power may be in its infancy, depending on Harry's growth as a being to enrich his understanding and control of it or to refine it/allow it to grow stronger. After the marking, if Harry had the power and was able to use it, Harry could have wiped VD out as a ghost. Either Harry cannot defeat the wraith-like creature VD becomes with the power he has (a great possibility) or his power hasn't fulfilled its potential yet (highly likely, IMHO), or both. I wouldn't be surprised if both premises were true. :D

So Whiz's theory (Possibly Purplehawk and/or Sabine have also espoused this) that HArry takes negative/evil power and it turns it around to good, falls into place here. Voldie shoots the AK at Harry, Baby HArry absorbed it, and spit the curse back up, leaving the scar/Sowelu Rune on his forehead, as the rebounded/altered power left his body, burning the symbol into his forehead.I like this idea, but then there is the big question: where does Lily's sacrifice fall into place? In the scenario you have outlined, it really doesn't matter one whit that Lily died to save Harry, does it? We are given the information in CoS that Voldie couldn't kill Harry because Lily died to save him (though looking back at PS/SS, Dumbledore doesn't exactly spell it out in quite that way), so it would seem to me that Lily's sacrifice must be what absorbed the killing force of the spell; but perhaps Harry's power is what caused Voldemort's powers to be lost, and his body to be destroyed, or whatever it was that happened to his body.

I like the idea of Voldemort being the snake, not just possessing it. But then, isn't it a bit odd that he would seem to reject the idea of going to the DoM himself to retrieve the prophecy, if, in fact, that is what he had done?

pheonixsong--sounds like superstition to me. :D Or magic?

It's not that I'm trying to give the scar agency, I guess I'm just trying to point to its essential ambiguity, and the fact that it might really be more than one thing at a time, and also to question the stability of "Harry" and "Voldemort" as agents, to suggest that the ambiguity of the scar also implies that Harry and Voldemort might each be multiple through their relationship with one another and the overly-rich conjuction of events that have brought them together. Neither Harry nor Voldemort is "whole" because they only exist in relation to one another, a relation both of opposition and of mutual constitution: each is who he is because of the other, and the scar is the icon of this relationship.

Oh, and for those few of you who aren't familiar with my opinion on the prophecy issue: I believe that the entire prophecy must come to fruition before it can be known to which it refers. Long, long, ago, in a thread far, far away, we discussed classical examples of so-called self-fulfilling prophecies, those in which knowledge of the prophecy causes the main actor to put into motion the series of events that eventually seem to match the prophecy; however, in most instances, had he acted otherwise, different results would have ensued which nevertheless would have matched the wording of the prophecy.

And so, in my opinion, it most definitely could have been Neville, it could still be someone else, but it is most likely Harry; I'm going with the working hypothesis that it does refer to Harry, but recognize the possibility that other circumstances could result in events that nevertheless fulfill the description given by the prophecy.

I certainly agree with you about the prophecy, pheonixsong. Its meanings are so multiple, ambiguous, contingent, that it could mean almost anything. Like any (semi-)religious directive text, the literal meanings contradict each other (thinking here of the importance of choice and the problem of fate). All the rest is interpretation based on probabilities.

Yes purplehawk, Voldemort was at the MoM, but only through possession and not being an animagus.

You're confusing me, Sone. Weren't you just arguing a few posts back that Voldemort wouldn't have risked being at the MoM at all, not even possessing the snake? Do you have some basis for your assumption he isn't an animagus? Something other than the "gee, we really don't know" verdict we've been discussing?

Why would Voldemort need a Port Key? I'm sure he's quite an accomplished Apparator, involving a Port Key seems to increase the risk to me, more that could go wrong. As far as the snake goes, I'm not convinced either way, there's lot of Canon that leaves open the possibility that Voldemort can physically become a snake, and we know Voldemort has made a habit of possessing snakes. For all we know, Salazaar Slytherin may have been a half Breed (Half Wizard, half Snake) and Nagini may be related to the snake parent of Salazaar Slytherin. Perhaps this is why Parcelmouth runs in the Slytherin line, and why Tom Riddle has a habit of possessing snakes, drinking Snake milk, Red eyes and the whole bit.

I don't think a portkey was involved, nor was the floo network. Both were being strictly controlled by the Ministry at that time and it's highly unlikely Madam Edgecombe would miss a gigantic snake traveling to and from on her network. Likewise, using a portkey to transport the snake would be a foolish move on Voldemort's part, as they could likely have traced it back to an address he didn't want known. Remember Lupin's comment before they took Harry off to Grimmaud Place:

"Brooms," said Lupin, who was checking his watch. "Only way. You're too young to apparate, they'll be watching the Floo Network, and it's more than our life's worth to set up an unauthorized Portkey."

I'm trying hard to think of other ways it could have happened, but the only solution to the riddle seems to be that Voldemort apparated into the MoM at some place where it is allowed to be done. It seems pretty ludicrous to think he would have done so with a snake that large in hand, so he most likely had already transformed into the snake and apparated into the hall, near the lifts.

Conversely, maybe he apparated as himself with a little snake in his pocket, possessed the snake, and then done an engorgement charm on the two of them. Gads, that's so ridiculous I'm laughing as I type!

I do really have a problem with the assumption that just because Harry has a power, he'll know how to use it or that the power possessed would be strong enough to ultimately defeat VD in its infancy. By this logic, Harry could have completely annihilated VD already, despite any charms VD might have to make him immortal. But that didn't happen on their first meeting, and there's got to be a reason.

There sure has got to be a reason and I'll bet my last dollar we won't find out about it until the final chapters of Book Seven. :evil: Darn it! At least Agatha Christie played fair and didn't milk it out to the point it took seven books and ten years (if we're lucky) to find out the ending.

EDIT:

Oh, and for those few of you who aren't familiar with my opinion on the prophecy issue: I believe that the entire prophecy must come to fruition before it can be known to which it refers. Long, long, ago, in a thread far, far away, we discussed classical examples of so-called self-fulfilling prophecies, those in which knowledge of the prophecy causes the main actor to put into motion the series of events that eventually seem to match the prophecy; however, in most instances, had he acted otherwise, different results would have ensued which nevertheless would have matched the wording of the prophecy.

Welcome back, friend! :tu: I agree wholeheartedly.

where does Lily's sacrifice fall into place? In the scenario you have outlined, it really doesn't matter one whit that Lily died to save Harry, does it?

PhoenixSong, yes, Lily's sacrifice was part of it. Lily did a ritual (In My humble opinion), the last part of which is giving her life up, which sealed the deal, so when Voldie attacked Harry, Lily's ritual protected Harry, causing the scar (as a mark of Harry's re-birth as the "One") and ripping Voldemort from his body.

All of which would have been predicated on her certainty that Peter would betray them. Which, if htat was a concern, she could easily have done something about it since, in all probability SHE was the one who PERFORMED THE FIDELIUS CHARM. Sorry, there's just a couple of holes in this making it hard for me to believe.

All of which would have been predicated on her certainty that Peter would betray them. Which, if htat was a concern, she could easily have done something about it since, in all probability SHE was the one who PERFORMED THE FIDELIUS CHARM. Sorry, there's just a couple of holes in this making it hard for me to believe.

Maybe not on her certainty that Peter was going to betray them, Jordy, but instead out of fear that someone within the Order was spying for Voldemort. There is text from Sirius, Flitwick, and McGonagall in PoA supporting the fact Dumbledore suspected there was a spy within the Order, and that he had informed the Potters of his suspicions.

PhoenixSong, yes, Lily's sacrifice was part of it. Lily did a ritual (In My humble opinion), the last part of which is giving her life up, which sealed the deal, so when Voldie attacked Harry, Lily's ritual protected Harry, causing the scar (as a mark of Harry's re-birth as the "One") and ripping Voldemort from his body.Well, yes. I'm sorry that I must have misunderstood, because I thought you were defending the "power is within Harry and it was activated by Voldemort's curse" theory, which seems to make Lily's sacrifice irrelevant.

Here's another question: can the content of a fidelius charm be extracted from the mind of the person in whom the secret is stored? We are told that the person must communicate that information (we have seen it take place in writing, and assume that it can be done verbally as well); must that "communication" be voluntary?"...The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find - unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window."Does this mean that such information can't be accessed using Legilimency or any other means of "truth extraction" (potions, e.g.)? What counts as "choosing" to divulge the information?

Maybe not on her certainty that Peter was going to betray them, Jordy, but instead out of fear that someone within the Order was spying for Voldemort. There is text from Sirius, Flitwick, and McGonagall in PoA supporting the fact Dumbledore suspected there was a spy within the Order, and that he had informed the Potters of his suspicions.Hmm, but the issue raised by jordan was a good one: given that they knew there was a spy, surely they would have instructed Peter not to tell anyone within the order about their hiding place in Godric's Hollow. But it does raise the question: did they draw up a "safe list" of people who could be told (they can't have wanted to spend possibly years all by themselves in Godric's Hollow)? And who was on this list? But if everyone on the list was thought completely 100% safe, then would Lily have prepared her countercharm (this seems to be jordan's question)?

I think she would have. I think that she probably began drawing it up even before the idea of the Fidelius Charm was decided upon, ever since she knew about the prophecy and that her son was a target. And I don't think she would have discarded those plans, even after the performance of the Fidelius Charm.

What counts as "choosing" to divulge the information?

Dumbledore's hand-written note to Harry would suffice, as, I am sure, his verbal instruction would have. Could it simply be the secret-keeper's intent, his willingness to share the informaton?

Why do you ask, though? Are you wondering if Voldemort forced the information out of Wormtail?

BANG!
The prophecy is about one but it doesn't say that there couldn't be one of more children being born that would fulfill this criteria. Yes only one can ultimatley fulfill it but it was open to being Neville in my humble view.

???How??? The phrase is very specific. It doesn't need to say that it couldn't be a choice among several because it clearly states that there is ONE.

"Professor Dumbledore?" Harry said very quietly, for Dumbledore, still staring at the Pensieve, seemed completely lost in thought. "It . . .did that mean . . . What did that mean?"

"It meant," said Dumbldore, "that the person who has the only chance of conquering Lord Voldermort for good was born at the end of July, nearly sixteen years ago. This boy would be born to parents who had already defied Voldemort three times."

Harry felt as though something was closing in upon him. His breathing seemed difficult again.

"It means - me?"

Dumbledore surveyed him for a moment through his glasses.

"The odd thing is, Harry," he said softly, "that it may not have meant you at all. Sibyll's prophecy could have applied to two wizard boys, both born at the end of July that year, both sets of parents having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times. One, of course, was you. The other was Neville Longbottom."

"But then . . .but then, why was it my name on the prophecy and not Neville's?"

"The official record was relabeled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child," said Dumbledore. "It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sibyll was referring."

"Then - it might not be me?" said Harry.

"I am afraid," said Dumbledore slowly, looking as though ever word cost him a great effort, "that there is no doubt that it is you."

"But you said - Neville was born at the end of July too - and his mum and dad - "

"You are forgetting the next part of the prophecy, the final identifying feature of the boy who could vanquish Voldemort. . . . Voldemort himself would 'mark him as his equal.' And so he did, Harry. He chose you, not Neville. He gave you the scar that has proved both blessing and curse."

There are three identifying features of the One with the power.
1.) He will be born at the end of July
2.) to parents who have thrice defied Voldemort,
3.) and Voldemort will mark him an equal.

This prophecy is as much about Voldemort as it is about Harry. It states that Voldemort will mark the one as his equal. Not any one else, the One. And Voldemort must fulfill his part of the prophecy, as well. It's not an option. It is prophesied.

Since it is prophesied that Voldemort will mark the one, it's safe to assume that anyone else, other than the One, that he used the death curse on would die. Thus, had Voldemort attempted to kill Neville, Neville would have perished.

"But he might have chosen wrong!" said Harry. "He might have marked the wrong person!"

"He chose the boy he thought most likely to be a danger to him," said Dumbledore. "And notice this, Harry. He chose, not the pureblood (which, according to his creed, is the only kind of wizard worth being or knowing), but the half-blood, like himself. He saw himself in you before he had ever seen you, and in marking you with that scar, he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers, and a future, which have fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far - something that neither your parents, nor Neville's parents, ever achieved."
The powers transferred from Voldemort have equipped Harry to escape the Dark Lord. But they are not the power Harry was born with or the power the dark lord knows not. They are Voldemort's own powers. I'm very interested in this part. :agree:
"Why did he do it, then?" said Harry, who felt numb and cold. "Why did he try and kill me as a baby? He should have waited to see whether Neville or I looked more dangerous when we were older and tried to kill whoever it was then - "

"That might, indeed have been the more practical course," said Dumbledore, "except that Voldemort's information about the prophecy was incomplete. The Hog's Head Inn, which Sibyll chose for it's cheapness, has long attracted, shall we say, a more interesting clientele than the Three Broomsticks. As you and your friends found out to your cost, and I to mine that night, it is a place where it is never safe to assume you are not being overheard. Of course, I had not dreamed, when I set out to meet Sibyll Trelawney, that I would hear anything worth overhearing. My - our - one sroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building."

"So he only heard . . .?"

"He heard only the first part, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transfering power to you - again marking you as his his equal. So Voldemort never knew that there might be danger in attacking you, that it might be wise to wait or to learn more. He did not know that you would have 'power the Dark Lord knows not' - "
Boldface is mine.

The danger to Voldemort is transferring his powers to the one, making him his equal. If he had known of this danger, he might have waited and avoided engaging this prophesied one with the power until he knew more about it all. It's not about Neville. It's about Voldemort's part in the prophesy. Of course, eventually, Voldemort would have to fulfill his part of the prophesy.

Now this "power the dark lord knows not" is becoming clearer in my mind. Of course, it's most likely wrong. But it seems more and more that Harry's power is to thwart Voldemort.

Force or power is neither good nor evil. It's the good or evile intention applied to its use which defines its effect.
Every power Voldemort has engaged with evil intention is taken by the one, purified to good intention and returned to Voldemort in a new form, with a new direction, and an outcome to virtue. Voldemort can't stand the goodness, the virtue, the intention to do good.

Power, and a future. ......

Hmmmm..............

Why do you ask, though? Are you wondering if Voldemort forced the information out of Wormtail?No, my line of questioning pertained to Lily's possible doubts about the security of the Fidelius Charm (an issue raised by jordmundt). If the Marauders were doubting one another, and Lupin was a top contender for "spy of the year", and, as has been speculated elsewhere, Lupin has some Legilimency abilities, then Lily might have doubted the security of information stored away in Pettigrew's little rat of a mind, even if she didn't doubt his intentions.

Alternatively, I'm the one who can't help speculating the unspeculatable: doubts about Dumbledore. Even if he is beyond reproach, is it not possible that Lily doubted his scheming? She and James refused his offer to be their Secret-Keeper, and I must say that I would be endlessly irritated in the face of his unwillingness to tell the whole truth, even if it is well-intentioned; but others, in the face of that, might begin to doubt his intentions.

edit:
Oh, and whizbang, it's not that I don't want to talk to you, I just don't have the strength to do the prophecy debate again, for the moment at least! But I still think you are wrong about the issues of fate! Thinking we've got the prophecy figured out means taking an awful lot for granted, like Voldemort=Dark Lord, for instance. But since I proceed with the same conclusion you do (that Harry is the one and Voldemort is the Dark Lord), we surely have lots of room for agreement and discussion!

Whiz, maybe you've forgotten how we hammered out the many meanings of the word "mark," and that one of them was "choose?" You are absolutely correct in saying the prophecy is as much about Voldemort as it is about Harry and/or or Neville. The key factor where Voldemort is concerned was his choice of Harry over Neville and the fact that, in making his choice, he therefore marked Harry as his equal by transferring certain of his own powers to Harry. He chose the boy he thought most like himself, thus assuming this boy (Harry) was likely to be a greater danger to him than Neville, the pureblood. And again, this all plays back into Rowling's recurring theme of choices made on the part of all the characters.

Edit to Phoenix: I think we're three or four years from achieving any kind of concensus opinion on the prophecy issue. I don't have the strength or fortitude to do it all again either.

If Voldemort became the snake, he could have transferred back to human form and then apparated out.

If Voldemort merely possessed the snake, he (or an agent of his) could have apparated the snake out.

It's only the Department of Mysteries itself, where Apparation is blocked. The Ministry of Magic has locations where you can indeed apparate in and out.


I'm staying away from whiz and purplehawk :)

Just a quick question, I don't think you can apparate someone else. (Even a snake). If you were able to then why would Molly and Arthur always have to go to such lengths to get the kids places. Even Dumbledore had to use a Portkey to send Harry to 12 Grimmauld.

I still like the snake animagus idea. It's clean and it explains some things. But like so many of my ideas it may still very well be wrong, :)

I like this idea, but then there is the big question: where does Lily's sacrifice fall into place? In the scenario you have outlined, it really doesn't matter one whit that Lily died to save Harry, does it? We are given the information in CoS that Voldie couldn't kill Harry because Lily died to save him (though looking back at PS/SS, Dumbledore doesn't exactly spell it out in quite that way), so it would seem to me that Lily's sacrifice must be what absorbed the killing force of the spell; but perhaps Harry's power is what caused Voldemort's powers to be lost, and his body to be destroyed, or whatever it was that happened to his body.

It seems as though Harry's power is triggered by strong emotions. Seeing his mother murdered may have aroused the emotional response in baby Harry that made it possible for him to defend himself, or as I suspect, launch a counter attack on Voldemort at the same time that Voldemort launched his AK at Harry.

Besides that, Lily died trying to save her child. Voldemort shed her blood. The traces of her love are still on Harry and the blood bond created by her murder gave Dumbledore the anchor to perform a shield charm that protects Harry from Voldemort's touch in the house where his mother's blood dwells. Oddly, this also seems to work at Hogwarts. :huh: Interesting.
Still, Dumbledore thought Harry was dead when he rescued him from Quirrell. So, it's not impossible that even this shield can be broken through. I agree with Sabine about the traces of Lily's love backfiring in voldy's face now that he has it in his new body. But I don't think it makes any difference in his ability to touch Harry. Harry was neither with the Dursleys, nor under the crooked nose of the Headmaster when Voldemort touched him in the graveyard, and I suspect those are the only places the shield charm works.

Oh, and for those few of you who aren't familiar with my opinion on the prophecy issue: I believe that the entire prophecy must come to fruition before it can be known to which it refers. Technically, I agree with this analysis. But the books are called "Harry Potter and ....." ;)

Whiz, you'd better fix the above post. It sounds like you're speaking with Phoenix's voice, thus agreeing the one could have been Neville or Harry! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Thanks. Did I fix it okay? I'll never catch up with you all.

That's better. That post, at least, sounds like a real honest-to-gosh Whiz post.

That's better. That post, at least, sounds like a real honest-to-gosh Whiz post.

;) :tu:

There is no way that voldemort could have "chosen" the one because the one was the one when the prophesy was made. No one knew which boy was the one, because until Voldemort failed to kill Harry and marked him, more than one child fit the criteria. The confusion is not in the very precise prophesy, but in the interpretation.

And because the prophesy is also about Voldemort, he could only choose the one.
The only real choice V had was to attack or wait for more info. But you know Voldemort. Shoot first and ask questions later. :rolleyes:

Back to the rodeo.

I'm staying away from whiz and purplehawk :)

Just a quick question, I don't think you can apparate someone else. (Even a snake). If you were able to then why would Molly and Arthur always have to go to such lengths to get the kids places. Even Dumbledore had to use a Portkey to send Harry to 12 Grimmauld.

I still like the snake animagus idea. It's clean and it explains some things. But like so many of my ideas it may still very well be wrong, :)

Touche, Jessica, I hadn't considered that, I think Canon supports you on this, I concede that Voldemort or an Agent, would not have been able to Apparate the snake. The only out I can come up with is, that underage kids aren't allowed to be apparated (as well as not allowed to do it themselves) and I think that's a pretty slim chance. So, it must be another method of transportation, if the snake was merely possessed, rather than a transformed Voldemort. Leading me to lean more on the side of Animagus Snake Voldemort now (Only ever so slightly though)

Whiz, so you're saying that since the Prophecy states "The One" over and over again, that only one specific person could ever have been "the one"? I see it as whoever met all the criteria becomes the one. Until the marking (Note the choice of the marking) it could have been NEville or Harry. I will concede that it's possible that NEville may not have had the makeup inside him to survive the marking, but until the marking, I still see them both as viable candidates.

Whiz, so you're saying that since the Prophecy states "The One" over and over again, that only one specific person could ever have been "the one"?
Yes!

I see it as whoever met all the criteria becomes the one.
Becomes the one?! :huh:
The criteria are, to use Dumbledore's words, identifying features.
Until the marking (Note the choice of the marking) it could have been NEville or Harry. It is prophesied that Voldemort would mark the one. He couldn't mark anyone else. He also must fulfill the prophesy.I will concede that it's possible that NEville may not have had the makeup inside him to survive the marking, but until the marking, I still see them both as viable candidates.The prophesy states that one is approaching. Not a couple of candidates.

The one, that old bug bear, I don't want to go all Matrix on you but Neo was 'the one', or was that the six,

Anyway the one could be and is open to a whole slew of options
If Lord Voldemort had attacked The Longbottom's first and Alice had sacrificed herself so that young Neville might survive, would that sacrifice have protected Neville enough for the curse to rebound, (I don't know what other word to use) if it had, if Alice had protected her son with the old magic, (i.e. dying so that he might live) where would the power to defeat the Dark Lord be, in Harry (if as some say he was born with it) or in Neville (he now being "the boy that lived")

Two gunmen go into a room and it is prophesise that the one with the fastest reaction will walk out,
Is it set right from the start, who will walk out,
Or is it a case that the one that walks out is "the one" because he walks out.

Whiz, LOL, Care for some virutal crab Legs and Raspberry lemonade?

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree upon the interpretation, otherwise everyone's gonna get a headache, and our arms will get tired from lobbing the posts back and forth. I understand where you're coming from, I just can't accept it yet. ;)

Froggy, thanks, that was put far more succinctly than I've been able to present. I believe the gunman who walks out becomes the one, rather than it will be person A who walks out since he has always been the one.

The one, that old bug bear, I don't want to go all Matrix on you but Neo was 'the one', or was that the six,
Hmmmm..... I haven't seen te matrix. And I think JKR's story came first. But either way, it's hardly a new idea.

Anyway the one could be and is open to a whole slew of options
If Lord Voldemort had attacked The Longbottom's first and Alice had sacrificed herself so that young Neville might survive, would that sacrifice have protected Neville enough for the curse to rebound,
I can't see how.. Neville is not the one. I can't remember where JKR says that Lily's sacrifice is what saved Harry. Help!

Two gunmen go into a room and it is prophesise that the one with the fastest reaction will walk out,
Is it set right from the start, who will walk out,
Or is it a case that the one that walks out is "the one" because he walks out.
Your prophesy is worded entirely in a future tense. "The one wirh the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches" is present tense. It makes a difference.
If the prophesy had been worded: "the one who will be born at the end of July to parents who have thrice defied the dark lord, and is marked an equal by the dark lord, will have the power to vanquish him," then I'd see your point.

It seems as though Harry's power is triggered by strong emotions. This is a good hypothesis, but hardly a foregone conclusion. It seems that magic in general has a root in emotions. After all, remember back to PS/SS, when Harry first meets Hagrid, and is given the stunning information that he is a wizard. To try to make Harry come to terms with this information, he gives the distinguishing characteristics of a witch or wizard:"Not a wizard, eh? Never made things happen when you was scared, or angry?"Then, in CoS, when Colin first accosts Harry, he says, in his mad rush:"...I never knew all the odd stuff I could do was magic till I got the letter from Hogwarts....So, it isn't just Harry whose emotions trigger magical responses; it seems that all magical people have that response.

However, that said, I will concede that it may be significant that Hagrid includes fear, as well as anger, as one of the emotions that triggers magic. A one-year-and-nine-month child, even if they are incapable of fully understanding something like death, and becoming angry in response, would feel fear at the fear of his mother.

edit:
oops, forgot to conclude the thought I started out with! Which is to say: if other people also have a "magical" response to frightening or angering situations, then maybe this is not where Harry's distinctive power resides. I'm not saying it's not, but this does give me slight pause. Remind me of the other evidence that it is his emotions in general that trigger his response? Didn't we used to say it was LOVE (*cringes slightly*)?

This is a good hypothesis, but hardly a foregone conclusion. It seems that magic in general has a root in emotions. After all, remember back to PS/SS, when Harry first meets Hagrid, and is given the stunning information that he is a wizard. To try to make Harry come to terms with this information, he gives the distinguishing characteristics of a witch or wizard:Then, in CoS, when Colin first accosts Harry, he says, in his mad rush:So, it isn't just Harry whose emotions trigger magical responses; it seems that all magical people have that response.

However, that said, I will concede that it may be significant that Hagrid includes fear, as well as anger, as one of the emotions that triggers magic. A one-year-and-nine-month child, even if they are incapable of fully understanding something like death, and becoming angry in response, would feel fear at the fear of his mother.
No arguements there. But remember, Harry has an extraordinary power. A power specifically endowed to vanquish the dark lord. I wonder if he can use it for anything else? :huh: Hmmmmm............

Sorry whizbang, I included an addendum while you were posting. That old question resurfaces: is the "power to vanquish" the Dark Lord unique to Harry, or do others have it as well? There used to be two camps: those who thought Harry's power was unique to him, and those who thought that everybody had access to the power, but that what makes Harry unique was the fact that he is also, due to the curse that failed, endowed with Voldemort's power, is Voldemort's equal. Or, some also thought that everybody had the power, but Harry has more of it.

I can't see how.. Neville is not the one. I can't remember where JKR says that Lily's sacrifice is what saved Harry. Help!

Sure you can, Whiz. She said it through Dumbledore and through Voldemort, and the two of them are telling us the same story.

Your prophesy is worded entirely in a future tense. "The one wirh the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches" is present tense. It makes a difference.

If the prophesy had been worded: "the one who will be born at the end of July to parents who have thrice defied the dark lord, and is marked an equal by the dark lord, will have the power to vanquish him," then I'd see your point.

"Approaches" is also future tense. Approaches means it isn't here yet, which is just as validly future as any of the other "identifying features."

For your hypothesis to work the prophecy would have to save something like: "the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord has been born... ," as in current tense.

Sorry whizbang, I included an addendum while you were posting. That old question resurfaces: is the "power to vanquish" the Dark Lord unique to Harry, or do others have it as well? There used to be two camps: those who thought Harry's power was unique to him, and those who thought that everybody had access to the power, but that what makes Harry unique was the fact that he is also, due to the curse that failed, endowed with Voldemort's power, is Voldemort's equal. Or, some also thought that everybody had the power, but Harry has more of it.
I remember that. :lol: But Dumbledore says that the transferred powers are what has given Harry power, and a future to escape Voldemort.

"Approaches" is also future tense. Approaches means it isn't here yet, which is just as validly future as any of the other "identifying features." Approaches is a present tense verb. For your hypothesis to work the prophecy would have to save something like: "the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord has been born... ," as in current tense."Has been born" is past tense form. "The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches......." One is the subject of this complete sentence. Approaches is the present tense verb.

Your prophecy is worded entirely in a future tense. "The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches" is present tense. It makes a difference.


Approach means, "To come near or nearer," surely this indicates that it had yet to happen, it will happen but it had not happened yet,

I could have put in my prophecy "the fastest gun approaches" and it would not change my point, will the fastest gunman go into the room as a forgone conclusion, or will leaving the room be the fulfilment of the prophecy.

Was Harry chosen by Voldemort or did the prophesy need just to be acted out, everyone doing their predestined thing at the time and place ordained. Without free will, and without choice, and what does Dumbledore say about choice?

Was Harry chosen by Voldemort or did the prophesy need just to be acted out, everyone doing their predestined thing at the time and place ordained. Without free will, and without choice, and what does Dumbledore say about choice?Unless there are multiple co-existent timelines, and the possibility of going between them, we will never know. Because Voldemort did what he did. I happen to believe that he might have chosen Neville, and things might have been different. But he didn't, and they weren't.

Unless there are multiple co-existent timelines, and the possibility of going between them, we will never know. Because Voldemort did what he did. I happen to believe that he might have chosen Neville, and things might have been different. But he didn't, and they weren't.

Or we can convince JKR to write a "Directors cut" version, where she expands all the possibilities, that would be nice (It is after all fiction) :p

Approach means, "To come near or nearer," surely this indicates that it had yet to happen, it will happen but it had not happened yet,
This isn't about the definition of the word "approaches" not that it makes a difference. This is about the tense of the verb "to approach."

I could have put in my prophecy "the fastest gun approaches" and it would not change my point, will the fastest gunman go into the room as a forgone conclusion, or will leaving the room be the fulfilment of the prophecy.

Was Harry chosen by Voldemort or did the prophesy need just to be acted out, everyone doing their predestined thing at the time and place ordained. Without free will, and without choice, and what does Dumbledore say about choice?
"The one with the fastest gun in Argentina approaches. He will be wearing a ten gallon hat. He will ride a palomino. The local bad guy will mark him an equal. But he will have speed the the bad guy knows not. And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. The one with the fastest gun in Argentina approaches wearing a ten gallon hat."

Two guys ride into town on Palominos wearing ten gallon hats. Are they both the one. Is it either or? How can they both possibly be the fastest. Just because we don't know which one it is, yet, doesn't mean it can be either one. Only one can be the fastest.

You're confusing me, Sone. Weren't you just arguing a few posts back that Voldemort wouldn't have risked being at the MoM at all, not even possessing the snake? Do you have some basis for your assumption he isn't an animagus? Something other than the "gee, we really don't know" verdict we've been discussing?

No. He would of risked possessing the snake but he would not risked physically being there. After all, as far as we know, wizards cannot detect when another wizard, let alone an animal is being possessed by another wizard. I also do not think Voldemort was physically inside the snake like he did Quirell. I think his mind was inside the snake. Yes, I do have "some" basis for my assumption that Voldemort is not an animagus. Harry thought Voldemort was an animagus when he was thinking it through but he was wrong seeing as Snape said that Voldemort was possessing the snake.

This isn't about the definition of the word "approaches" not that it makes a difference. This is about the tense of the verb "to approach."
"The one with the fastest gun in Argentina approaches. He will be wearing a ten gallon hat. He will ride a palomino. The local bad guy will mark him an equal. But he will have speed the the bad guy knows not. And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. The one with the fastest gun in Argentina approaches wearing a ten gallon hat."

Two guys ride into town on Palominos wearing ten gallon hats. Are they both the one. Is it either or? How can they both possibly be the fastest. Just because we don't know which one it is, yet, doesn't mean it can be either one. Only one can be the fastest.


I have to say, sorry, but I disagree, they can both be the fastest, right up until the point where something some action or inaction makes one of them "the one" Be it one cheating or the other shooting the someone in the back, or Harry's house being closed (or further) to where Lord Voldemort is standing at the time he made the decision to kill the only two children that fitted his understanding of the prophecy.

We are seeing it from an "end result" not from the perspective of the "here and now" or the "soon to be". Observation will always effect the results

I have to say, sorry, but I disagree, they can both be the fastest, right up until the point where something some action or inaction makes one of them "the one" Be it one cheating or the other shooting the someone in the back, or Harry's house being closed (or further) to where Lord Voldemort is standing at the time he made the decision to kill the only two children that fitted his understanding of the prophecy.

We are seeing it from an "end result" not from the perspective of the "here and now" or the "soon to be". Observation will always effect the results

Good post, Froggy! That last argument you presented, the bit about seeing it from a position of hindsight, was one I used quite frequently in the old Prophecy threads. None of those on the other side of the fence listened then, however, and they probably won't now.

And I though I was bringing some new and clever idea (grumble grumble) is it time to move on to liHP II or at least tell a Mod that we are almost there,

This is great fun to watch, on another board, there might be bloody noses by now, but, everyone is so great about the way they voice there disagreements in this thread.

Purplehawk, isn't that the way it always goes? Although I'm sure those that we have disagreed with feel the same way about things we didn't accept in their viewpoint, LOL.

Wasn't there somewhere something JKR said, about not only are Prophecies often open to interpretation, they are also sometimes fluid, based upon poeple's actions and choices? (Or perhaps that was a CoS poster who said that is the way Prophecies are in other stories, as a defense of their personal theory, I'm not sure which is the case) Anyone remember this, or know where I got this in my head?

It is cool, isn't it? I love it when a group of diehard thinkers get together and debate something to the "nth" degree and still emerge friends. The bonding of this group actually happened on the Prophecy threads. In fact, it got one of them closed and deleted because we were getting too chummy. Then Whiz, God love her, came up with the idea for this thread and Cream and Sugar. Both clicked immediately, as none of us were concerned about post count and were far more interested in communing as friends, while passionately debating the concepts we cared about.

We are the CoS version of "A Funny Thing Happened on the way to the Forum... "

We are the CoS version of "A Funny Thing Happened on the way to the Forum... "
:lol:

Exactly! Very funny, indeed! And great fun. Thanks, all.

Btw, it was always Harry. It was never Neville.

RUN!

Will someone please post an A.P.B. on that post-and-run?

Neville was number one :angel: , until Lord Voldemort made his mistake, so there :p :p (I'm to dignified to run)

Popcorn? Hot and buttered. No, the popcorn. :rolleyes:

I love this debate. I don't even care how JKR writes it in the end. It's just fun discussing it, as long as no one throws moldy fruit.

Annoushka Shankar is everything she's cranked up to be. :agree: Boy, can she rock a sitar.

I think the Frogman makes an excellent point; I agree with the fact that the one is the last man standing, so to speak, but whiz and I are in rare company. The prophecy, by it's nature (fate vs. choice, future in the present) is a circle. VD could not (never, ever) choose Neville because he didn't have the power to vanquish VD. Neville doesn't have the power because VD didn't chose him.

[Neville could not be the one because VD did not mark him as an equal. Neville could not be marked because VD chose Harry. Harry is the one, and Harry was marked.]

The marking of Harry Potter exists in a perfect equilibrium with the power to vanquish the dark lord. Harry has the power because he was marked, Harry was marked because he has the power. It's circular logic. It's why you're all arguing about it. Which came first- the chicken or the egg?

Everything you've all been saying is true, but I can't agree wholly with any of you. VD marking Harry- choosing Harry- gave him the power to vanquish VD. Yet, the only pre-requisite to being "the one" was to have the power to vanquish. This power was not so much an active component of the child in question, but rather the child's ability to assume power from VD during the choosing. This ability, therefore, is actually the power.
Arguably, Neville could have had this ability to assume VD's power; I'll admit it. Alice Longbottom would surely have sacrificed herself for the baby. Frank would have fought VD tooth and nail to save Neville. But he was not chosen by VD, therefore he could not have been the one. He never gained VD's powers because he was not chosen. He therefore ends up without the power to vanquish VD at the end of the day. It's a circle.
We know:
One approaches. The person who will ultimately be marked.
He has the power to vanquish the dark lord. He is pre-destined to be able to send VD away. (In fact, the prophecy COULD have been fulfilled when Harry was a toddler! Vanquish doesn't necessarily mean final defeat.) This power is not unequivocally unique. It hinges on the ability to absorb VD's power. Only by becoming VD's equal can the boy defeat VD. Perhaps the only way to defeat VD is to entirely absorb him. Regardless, the one approaching, the marking, the vanquishing all exist on different points of a circle. Using the term "Timeline" is the biggest error when trying to understand a prophecy. Chronology is irrelevant because the present is the future, the future is the present; it is not a line.

Of course, this solves nothing :blush: but I think this is why we like to argue. I'm just not sure logic can apply on a linear basis here.

Harry is the one who had the power to vanquish VD because VD marked him as his equal. VD chose Harry as his equal and ultimately gave Harry the power to destroy him. No one else was chosen, marked. No one else could be the one.

But could another boy have been the one? No. The choice exists at the same time as the approach, just on the other side of our time circle. It exists at the same time of the vanquishing as well.

Aside: Vigilance, don't throw things at me! I know from previous discussions that you don't understand/like my POV!

Now, on to more important business: Was the snake in the MoM not Nagini? And if a basilisk can travel around in pipes, why can't a snake? :p

A snake could certainly travel through the pipes - any pipes, if sewer tales are to be believed - but why, after traveling into the Ministry via the plumbing, would the snake then take the lifts?

BTW, Jade - I like your circular logic! :tu:

The snake may have taken the lifts into the MoM, or the front stairs, or the telephone booth for all I know. I was suggesting a means of clandestine egress!

I guess my long-winded prior post made me forget to mention that, exactly. :blush:

I think the Frogman makes an excellent point; I agree with the fact that the one is the last man standing, so to speak, but whiz and I are in rare company. The prophecy, by its nature (fate vs. choice, future in the present) is a circle. VD could not (never, ever) choose Neville because he didn't have the power to vanquish VD. Neville doesn't have the power because VD didn't chose him.
[Neville could not be the one because VD did not mark him as an equal. Neville could not be marked because VD chose Harry. Harry is the one, and Harry was marked.]



By your own admission Neville could have been the one if Lord Voldemort had marked him as an Equal, therefor we have free will working within the prophecy,
Now if you had said that the Prophecy could not (never, ever) choose Neville because he didn't have the power to vanquish Voldemort. Neville doesn't have the power because prophecy didn't chose him

I see the prophecy as a tossed coin spinning in the air, only three possibilities
Heads Harry is the one
Tails Neville is the one, or
Nothing and the coin keeps spinning and Lord Voldemort wins this round, the prophecy remains pending until the next time the fates conspire to bring together the right people at the right time thus ending the circle, until the rebirth of a (the) Dark lord


The marking of Harry Potter exists in a perfect equilibrium with the power to vanquish the dark lord. Harry has the power because he was marked, Harry was marked because he has the power. It's circular logic. It's why you're all arguing about it. Which came first- the chicken or the egg?


It doesn't matter, all that matters is understanding, it's not up to the Chicken to decide,



Harry is the one who had the power to vanquish Lord Voldemort because the Dark lord marked him as his equal. VD chose Harry as his equal and ultimately gave Harry the power to destroy him. No one else was chosen, marked. No one else could be the one.


But they could have been chosen, free will again, the fact that no one else was picked does not mean that no one else could be picked


But could another boy have been the one? No. The choice exists at the same time as the approach, just on the other side of our time circle. It exists at the same time of the vanquishing as well.


If free will is involved then this point doesn't stand the test of proof, If Lord Voldemort choose to attack Harry first, then he was the one who marked Harry as his Equal, and therefore Lord Voldemort triggered the prophecy, and made Harry the boy who lived,

Aside: Vigilance, don't throw things at me! I know from previous discussions that you don't understand/like my POV!

Now, on to more important business: Was the snake in the MoM not Nagini? And if a basilisk can travel around in pipes, why can't a snake? :p[/QUOTE]

I agree, a Basilisk is the king of the serpents and going on the size of the one in the chamber of secrets (the book, not the film) a snake of equel size (like the snake Nagini) could easily fit in a standard rain water pipe as used in London (24 inches for the most part)
]

The choice is an illusion, Froggy. It was never really a choice, but it seemed like one. The term is my term, not the prophecy's, of course. The marking of HP was perceived as a choice, but as the marking coincides with the vanquishing and the approach, it actually is not a choice at all. That's how fate messes with us. It's all an elaborate farce to confuse us into believing we have a will that can influence events, but when JKR brought out a prophecy, free will went out the window with my sanity.
That's alsp the nature of a prophecy; it implies fate. :)

I am so sorry but kismet implies fate, to me prophecy is a prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration things that might happen, given the right set of event leading up to that event,

Now I might have read too many books where prophecies are involved, but there is always a degree of uncertainty, as to the success of the mission or chain of events that lead to the end of the events foretold. Where as fate is set in stone, Fate is a dropped sword, that will fall no matter what is done

(Read the books by David and Leigh Eddings to understand the twists that fate, the gods and a living prophecy can put a person through)

Oh my! Purp likes this discussion and shall sit back, roasting my toesies by the fire, and read as you two hash it out.

Carry on!

The uncertainty of this prophecy is the outcome of the attempt to vanquish, though on a literary level, I have to say it's pretty clear what the outcome will be... somehow evil will be overcome. But you have a point. I suppose the prophecy may just be a suggestion of what may lie in the future. I almost always think of a prophecy as an inescapable outcome, even though prophecies invariably veil the actual circumstances that must occur in order for events to culminate.

Almost every book I read with prophecies also say things like "the prophecy must be fulfilled" and it always is, only not in ways you might have suspected. You can twist prophecies easily into what you want them to say. That's why a very strict literal interpretation is sometimes inadequate. One must always keep in mind how vague the prophecy is.

The uncertainty is in the interpretation, not in the fate described by the prophecy. Yow! will we go round and round on this? I think your points are well thought-out and valid; I just don't happen to 100% agree. :)

Be it one cheating or the other shooting the someone in the back, But it can never happen that way. According to the prophesy, it must be the fastest, not the sneakiest or the most underhanded, although if the sneakiest is also the fastest then he's the one. Only the fastest is the one. We don't know which it is, but that isn't the same as it could be either one.

I think the Frogman makes an excellent point; I agree with the fact that the one is the last man standing, Right! And he always was the one.;)so to speak, but whiz and I are in rare company. The prophecy, by it's nature (fate vs. choice, future in the present) is a circle. VD could not (never, ever) choose Neville because he didn't have the power to vanquish VD. Neville doesn't have the power because VD didn't chose him. I hate to disagree, but Neville doesn't have the power because Harry does. Voldemort's choice seems irrelevant in regard to Neville. Neville was never involved. He happened by chance to meet the first two identifying features. So did a couple of grindylows in the swamp behind the Hag's Discount Magical Supplies, but none of them is the one. Neville is a coincidence.

Everything you've all been saying is true, but I can't agree wholly with any of you. VD marking Harry- choosing Harry- gave him the power to vanquish VD.

Hold on! Harry had the power to vanquish the dark lord when he approached, at the time the prophesy was made. VD (when did he become an std?) marked Harry an equal by transferring his powers to Harry which Dumbledore said have enabled Harry to escape the DL four times. They have yet to vanquish him. It's the something else, the power behind the door more than likely, that will squish the pita DL.

Yet, the only pre-requisite to being "the one" was to have the power to vanquish. This power was not so much an active component of the child in question, but rather the child's ability to assume power from VD during the choosing. This ability, therefore, is actually the power. Why can't it just be what the prophesy says? :upset:

Arguably, Neville could have had this ability to assume VD's power; I'll admit it. Alice Longbottom would surely have sacrificed herself for the baby. Frank would have fought VD tooth and nail to save Neville. But he was not chosen by VD, therefore he could not have been the one. He never gained VD's powers because he was not chosen. He therefore ends up without the power to vanquish VD at the end of the day. It's a circle.
We know:
One approaches. The person who will ultimately be marked.
He has the power to vanquish the dark lord. He is pre-destined to be able to send VD away. (In fact, the prophecy COULD have been fulfilled when Harry was a toddler! Vanquish doesn't necessarily mean final defeat.) In fact, I think he could have done it in Godric's Hollow if Voldemort hadn't done all those immortality spells. But then, of course, there would have been no marking and etc, etc.
This power is not unequivocally unique. It hinges on the ability to absorb VD's power. Only by becoming VD's equal can the boy defeat VD. Perhaps the only way to defeat VD is to entirely absorb him.
that's interesting in terms of the idea that my theory on the power the DL knows not having something to do with reversing the intention of Voldemorts activities and thereby changing the outcome to good, thwarting the DL at every turn. (I'm beginning to have these little pictures in my mind of Voldemort tearing at his handlebar moustachios and wailing, "Curses! Foiled again!" :lol:)
Of course, this solves nothing :blush: but I think this is why we like to argue. I'm just not sure logic can apply on a linear basis here.

Harry is the one who had the power to vanquish VD because VD marked him as his equal. VD chose Harry as his equal and ultimately gave Harry the power to destroy him. No one else was chosen, marked. No one else could be the one.

But could another boy have been the one? No. The choice exists at the same time as the approach, just on the other side of our time circle. It exists at the same time of the vanquishing as well.

Aside: Vigilance, don't throw things at me! I know from previous discussions that you don't understand/like my POV!

Now, on to more important business: Was the snake in the MoM not Nagini? And if a basilisk can travel around in pipes, why can't a snake? :p
I'm not sure I like the circular logic either. But what the heck. No throwing! Unless it's popcorn. What goes with popcorn?

So there are pipes in the Mom?

Thank you, I must admit that until I have read book seven and JKR has slapped me upside the head with the last words I will be a "choice over fate" diehard fan but it has been fun,
Though again there are some who will say the prophecy is not open to interpretation, who when in danger of coming unstuck will shout canon.

Let's move on shall we, the Snake is a good place to start, anyone want to have a go or shall we call an end to this thread and move to the next one

Edit to include Whizbangs pet

that's interesting in terms of the idea that my theory on the power the DL knows not having something to do with reversing the intention of Voldemort's activities and thereby changing the outcome to good, thwarting the DL at every turn. (I'm beginning to have these little pictures in my mind of Voldemort tearing at his handlebar moustachios and wailing, "Curses! Foiled again!" )

Oh no from the A-team to Scoobie-doo


I would have done if it weren't for them pesky kids


Edit to Purplehawk: that is what I meant, move on to Layers II not find another thread/topic, it's going to take 20 posts to agree a name, I vote for Lets debunk Whiz's pet II

No way! We do Layers II. And the snake is an excellent place to pick up again. Is Voldemort an animagus and had he transformed into his animagus state the night he attacked Arthur Weasley?

Okay, now, I have been following this thread and on rare occasions contributing, but I missed something - why does a new thread have to be started instead of just continuing this one? :huh:

'Cause last time we heard, the forum honchos told us the 1,500 post threshold couldn't be breached without causing problems... I dunno what problems. Rotsiepots is the person to ask.

Well I closed the old layers thread. Heres the new one:

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=23247

We probably wont incur any problems, but its best to forstall them, thats why we have the 1500 cap ;)