Layers in Harry Potter [Archive]

whizbang121

November 13th, 2003, 3:53 am

Ok... here is my list of important things
1. Harry's parents defying voldie 3 times
2. Petunia knowing about voldie
3. (and the one that bugs me the most) All of the things Harry and neville have in common( birthdates... parents... prophecy...)
We're not sure how much Harry and Neville have in common.

We're not sure they have the same birthdate. Neville may have been born on the 30th. All we know is that he was born at the end of July.

Neville is a pureblood, and Harry is apparently not.

The prophesy was only ever about one with the power to vanquish the dark lord, already approaching when the prophesy was made. As it was about Harry, it wasn't about Neville.

Harry was raised by relatives who despised and abused him.
Neville was raised by a heartbroken grandmother who may have despaired of his magical abilities, but she seemed to love him. And I doubt he was abused. Well, maybe Uncle Algie's efforts on his behalf were a little ... dangerous. But I'll bet Uncle Algie had his wand out to rescue Neville if necessary. I hope.:rolleyes:

Neville has an important future. The story is taking two tracks, now. The magical world is at war with the dark lord, but there are also many wrongs that must be righted. Racism, slavery, poor government, all this has taken its toll on the quality of life of all magical beings, not just wizards. I think Neville's future lies in this direction. His lineage and emerging abililities will bring him to his destiny and many lives could ultimately depend on him.

But only Harry can vanquish the dark lord.

harp230

November 13th, 2003, 4:01 am

ahhh...I know they may/may not have same b-days etc. But dumbledore made it clear for some reason that the prophecy could have been about neville. now i do think that it is a crazy idea that it could still be possible that it is about neville. I do not support that idea at all. why are we told this? Who really cares? There was no mystery. no leading up to it. that bothers me . Why?!

as far as how thne two were raised though. Neville may have had "love" but harry seemes to be a bit more well adjusted person. Neville does not seem to feel all that more loved by his gramdmother.

whizbang121

November 13th, 2003, 4:39 am

They are different people. Harry's life forced him to mature more quickly perhaps. Neville, for what ever reason, seems a bit of a late bloomer. He has nevertheless had to visit parents who don't even recognise him. Yet, his mother makes touching gestures giving him gum wrappers. But they both have phenomenally good hearts. Their ability to put others before themselves is beyond their years.

harp230

November 13th, 2003, 4:45 am

Im just saying that Harry seems to have more of an ability to relate to others than Neville.

whizbang121

November 13th, 2003, 6:01 am

Im just saying that Harry seems to have more of an ability to relate to others than Neville.
Neville does seem to struggle.
I hope Neville becomes Headmaster of Hogwarts, marries Ginny Weasley and together they raise seven famously gorgeous redhaired daughters. Perhaps one red haired muggle loving son.;)
Could be a great spin off. The Adventures of the Longbottom Witches.
:cool:

This was originally posted by Silver Ink Pot in the core of the series thread. It sums up the complexity of JKR perfectly.

Here is a good link about Spartan life, with an excerpt about the wittiness of the Spartans. That is certainly a big part of the Harry Potter books!

http://www.e-classics.com/lycurgus.htm
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------Their sayings were so sharp and pertinent that the Spartans were more famous for their wit than for their prowess as soldiers and athletes. Even though at war and in sports they were by far the best in Greece, intellectual exercise was considered to be the essence of the Spartan way of life. From an early age, they learned to pack many layers of meaning into a few words -- and, more importantly, when to speak and when to shut up.

Since it was the Spartan wit that was appreciated, maybe we should examine humor in the series more closely.

Sabine

November 13th, 2003, 10:48 am

But we do need a starting point. What is the central mystery?
Who is Harry Potter and what is his destiny in the magical world?

Whizbang - don't ask such questions or we will find ourselves once again discussing powers and prophecies!!!! :p :lol: :sigh:

So I just add the points that seem to be somehow interessting to me and haven't been mentioned before in this thread

what did Voldemort do when he travelled long and far after finishing school
since none of you seems to like my theory of another enchanted book :p I would like to ponder on the question: from where did Tom Riddle at the age of 16/17 know how to do an AK
what is the deeper purpose of Hermione sticking stubbornly to S.P.E.W.
Eyes
ghosts
what did Slytherin after leaving Hogwarts
Quibbler - is there at least some minimum-level truth in some articels
how can the houses of Hogwarts be united

that should be enough to begin with - I agree with whizbang - we should find some starting point

Sabine

purplehawk

November 13th, 2003, 11:33 am

Interesting thread, Whiz. Good idea to start it. IMO there are several key pieces to the puzzle - pieces JK has deliberately kept secret.

The lineage and history of Lily Evans and James Potter;
The history of Tom Riddle before he became Lord Voldemort;
Dumbledore's history, particularly in reference to Grindelwald;
loads more information about the Department of Mysteries and specifically the force or power behind the locked door; and
the situation with the Longbottom family.

whizbang121

November 13th, 2003, 2:40 pm

Wow. Well, we all have one thing in common. We want the unanswered questions answered.

I was reading Sabine's thoughts on Salazar Slytherin having stored his memory somehow, probably in a book. I'm not sure I understand everything in the theory, but it seems like Lord Voldemort is actually Slytherin himself possessing Tom through the book or whatever the memory he left behind is stored in.

It's interesting because, I reread the pensieve chapter in GoF yesterday, and right in the beginning, Harry compares the experience of being in Dumbledore's pensieve with being in Tom's memory of how he framed Hargrid. So while moving in and out of memories may be advanced magic, it doesn't seem out of the ordinary in the wizarding world.

But this opens up other questions. Is Tom Riddle possessed by the spirit of Slytherin or is Voldemort seperate from them both? Was Slytherin also possessed by this same spirit? It seems like he was a nice guy who suddenly turned on his friends in the stories we are told. Did he find a book or other memory device that changed him, too? Is it a book or pensieve full of evil memories?

And why does Dumbledore tell Lucius Malfoy at the end of CoS that if Harry and Ron hadn't discovered the chamber and the one who had opened it, Ginny would have taken the blame and no one would have questioned her guilt. Are the Weasleys descended from from Slytherin?

Sabine

November 13th, 2003, 2:48 pm

I start with the simplest question - and while prepairing the rest of the house for a fifteenth birthday tomorrow I'm goint to think about the others ;)

And why does Dumbledore tell Lucius Malfoy at the end of CoS that if Harry and Ron hadn't discovered the chamber and the one who had opened it, Ginny would have taken the blame and no one would have questioned her guilt. Are the Weasleys descended from from Slytherin?

Hagrid wasn't related to Slytherin too, but nonetheless he was held responsible for opening the chamber of secrets.

there IS a lot of what would you call it -- concealment - camouflage (I love that word) disguising going on in the wizarding world.

Who would question that Ginny opened the chamber? Only those who know that only the true heir to Slytherin can open it - but how many do that actually KNOW? And those who do seem to know (Malfoy f.e.) wouldn't care - in the contrary they would be pleased to see Ginny taking the blame for that.

Sabine

phoenixsong

November 13th, 2003, 3:04 pm

But this opens up other questions. Is Tom Riddle possessed by the spirit of Slytherin or is Voldemort seperate from them both? Was Slytherin also possessed by this same spirit? It seems like he was a nice guy who suddenly turned on his friends in the stories we are told. Did he find a book or other memory device that changed him, too? Is it a book or pensieve full of evil memories?Ooh, I like this train of thought, whizbang! I know that Sabine hates to talk about these time-travel theories, but what about if instead of Harry sending Voldemort back to become the ancestor of Slytherin (as in the Ouroboros theory), he sends him back as the disembodied spirit who then possesses Salazar Slytherin, causing Slytherin's fallout with his friends, until, maybe, Godric Gryffindor "vanquishes" him (we haven't yet found out how Slytherin meets his end, but maybe it is by having the evil spirit we call Voldemort driven out of his body). Does this make sense to anyone else?

Sabine

November 13th, 2003, 3:23 pm

Ooh, I like this train of thought, whizbang! I know that Sabine hates to talk about these time-travel theories,

:lol: :lol: :lol: This is not the whole truth - I have to confess - I just loved Douglas Adams explanation of that subject!!!!

Just put everything down so clearly he does and I am quite sure to follow --- eventually ... sometimes ...

Actually I HAVE to share it with you:

The Restaurant at the End of the Universe is one of the most extraordinary ventures in the entire history of catering. It has been built on the fragmented remains of ... it will be built on the fragmented ... that is to say it will have been built by this time, and indeed has been -

One of the major problems encountered in time travel is not that of accidentally becoming your own father or mother. There is no problem involved in becoming your own father or mother that a broadminded and well-adjusted family can't cope with.

The major problem [of time travelling] is quite simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveller's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations.

[The Time Traveller's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations] will tell you for instance how to describe something that was about to happen to you in the past before you avoided it by time-jumping forward two days in order to avoid it.

I am actually having tears in my eyes again .... how am I supposed to do housework like that---huh :rotfl: :rotfl:

Sabine

whizbang121

November 13th, 2003, 6:21 pm

Me, too! :lol:
But, reading Prof Binns again, there does seem to be some reason, founded in doubt and fear, for wanting to exclude muggleborns. They muggles of that era were persecuting magical folk. It seemed dangerous to let one of them, magically endowed or not, into the school.

phoenixsong

November 13th, 2003, 6:28 pm

But, reading Prof Binns again, there does seem to be some reason, founded in doubt and fear, for wanting to exclude muggleborns. They muggles of that era were persecuting magical folk. It seemed dangerous to let one of them, magically endowed or not, into the school.okay, here's another thoughtt: what if we start working with the Voldemort possessing Slytherin idea, and think about the content of another, third prophecy, which predicts the actions of muggle-borns in bringing about the downfall of the Dark Lord. Voldemort-as-Slytherin then begins to ensure that no muggle-borns will ever receive the magical training that would bring about his downfall in the future.

It is all messed up in terms of timelines, I know, but I do think that there is an important relationship between Voldemort's and Harry's half-blood status and their power.

edit: oh yeah, this too:
They muggles of that era were persecuting magical folk. It seemed dangerous to let one of them, magically endowed or not, into the school.I don't think we can see this as the basis for Slytherin's anti-muggle ideas. After all, don't we learn that "Witch Burning in the Middle Ages was Completely Pointless"? That is, wizard folk were never under threat from muggles, it is just easier to get on without the nuisance of trying to explain everything to them or work out some sort of way of co-existing. There must be some other explanation for Slytherin's position.

whizbang121

November 13th, 2003, 8:12 pm

I would agree but Prof Binns mentions it.

"...for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much presecution."
""...He (Slyutherin) believed that magical learning should be kept within all-magic families. He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy."

This virtually explains why Slytherin took the view he did.

Sabine

November 13th, 2003, 9:35 pm

I would like to talk about the "grammar of time travel"

No - not really.

but I would like to make a point.

Point:

My believe at the moment is, that timetravel over this long expanded period is not something I think JKR would do. I think the whole matter is to complicated.

Even in the wizarding world time travelling is considered "dangerous". All this paperwork and convincing that has to be done by Minerva and Albus to get a time-turner for Hermione is not just there to "bother" people. It is dangerous. There are strict rules for time travelling.

So - my point is - travelling back in time for 3 hours is ok. JKR could maintain both timelines very well and very convincing.

I doubt that this could be done for several years - let alone almost thousand years which would have to relived if someone sends some immortal Voldemort to the past to possess Slytherin.

So I think in explaining that so that it truely would work JKR would not only loose me have way through but a substantial amount of the readers. I don't think she will take that risk.

In my eyes the solution to the "Riddle" has to be a simple one. Astonishingly simple so that everyone will go on for hours :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: for not having seen it her/himself.

End of Point ;)

Sabine

phoenixsong

November 13th, 2003, 10:14 pm

In my eyes the solution to the "Riddle" has to be a simple one. Astonishingly simple so that everyone will go on for hours :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: for not having seen it her/himself.

End of Point ;)
I'm inclined to agree, Sabine! It was pure speculation, on my part. But I also think that it has to be a satisfying explanation, emotionally satisfying, so I don't think the "Slytherin's Diary" theory really provides the kind of "oomph" that is required.

I want it to be something deeply resonant, like the moment that Harry recognizes his Patronus as Prongs, in my estimation the most powerful moment in all the books to date. Something that brings together the interrelationship of the past and the present. But I don't know what that might be, either.

Sabine

November 13th, 2003, 10:33 pm

I'm inclined to agree, Sabine! It was pure speculation, on my part. But I also think that it has to be a satisfying explanation, emotionally satisfying, so I don't think the "Slytherin's Diary" theory really provides the kind of "oomph" that is required.

I love that "oomph" and I think your right about it :)

Sabine

whizbang121

November 14th, 2003, 5:09 am

Simple explanation for the Riddle / Slytherin connection.
sigh
Tom Riddle
Tom backwards is mot, french for 'word.'
Word Riddle.
Grindelwald has the word riddle in it, with some letters left over.

Has anyone tried to anagram Salazar Slytherin? Or Tom's invocation, "Speak to me Slytherin, greatest of the Hogwarts four!" Even Hogwarts is Warthogs inside out.

Pressed Rat and Warthog, Cream, Eric Clapton and Ginger Baker. It's all a Riddle. Going nowhere. Bedtime.:)

Sabine

November 14th, 2003, 8:01 am

I put the subject in as a title - maybe we could do so to make things a little more clearly in a thread that surely is going to be like an labyrinth soon...

or more - let me add a little to the confusion...

there are so many snakes there.... They are everywhere you look ....

The Chamber of Secrets is actually full of them, the house of the Blacks is so too, Voldemorts Nagini, SSSSSSalazzzzzzar SSSSSSlythhhhhherin reminds me of them everytime I see that name - so, I'm afraid, does SSSSSSeverus SSSSSSSnape :sigh:, the Boa in the Zoo, the Basilisk, the "Voldometer" (copyright by purplehawk) on Dumbledores desk, the snake-like Voldemort describtion after his rebirth. Voldemort possessing or transforming a snake. Voldemort possessing preferrably snakes after the incident at Godrics Hollow, Harry "killing" Toms-Diary-Memory with a fang of the Basilisk.

Its present in a way that, everytime that I'm reading some snake-referrence, it seems to say: "Beware baaaaaad/dark things ahead!!!"

And on the opposite there is Fawkes ... phoenix-referrences are widly thrown out over the books too - i don't think I have to list them...

just like the snape referrences seem to say "this is bad" every reference to a Phoenix is announcing something good to happen.

So it's actually very easy to sort all bad/snakish things on Voldemorts/Slytherins side and every good/phoenix-ish thing to Harry/Dumbledore.

Having written that down like that there is something that comes to mind:

Voldemort/Slytherin
Harry/Dumbledore

reminds me of the theory we once discussed that actually Dumbledore is some mentor to Harry, who prepars him/helps him for the errands he has to do.

Could we say that for Voldemort/Slytherin too? Is/was/(will be ;)) Slytherin the mentor of Voldemort?

It start with day Harry and Tom enter the magical world.

They seem to have some really likely childhood. But when they enter the magical world their stories drift appart just like if they were the same poles (Is this me --- talking about magentism :scared: :scared: :scared: ) But there it is - they do just that - everything they do is opposite - everything they treasure is opposite - everything they want is opposite. Even the woods of their wands is actually opposite.

The great exception to the rule is actually that core in the wands

This is the only thing they share.

Sorry for you but I am allowing my brain some exercise there :D

Looking closer to the wand: They actually get the wand at the "treshold to the magical world". The day you buy your schoolbooks at Diagon Alley seems to be a day where you are not really in the magical already (you get a glimpse but thats it) - but aren't clearly out of it too ---- hmmmmmmmmm

So you are going to be to enter the magical word ... at the treshold you get your wand ... and that point is a point Harry and Tom start to drift in opposite directions already. This is going to annoy me - I can see it already .....

The wood of the wands is "opposite" the core is the same - the wand chooses the wizard - but which part of the wand - the core or the wood?

Let me just throw in another thought before I forget it: We learn "its all about the choices we make" BUT The wand chooses the wizard, of course!!!!

Both Tom and Harry are choosen by really powerful wands - so maybe its just the combination of wood and core? But the combinations on both wands are different - both are powerful but in combination with the same core they actually apply to wizards that are going to be the opposites - or - back to magnetism - the same Pole ... looking at the Pole-thing one could say "they are forced to drift apart" hmmmm forced by what? The wands? hmmmm - seems to be no good - would somehow nullify the chance for real choices...

So back again .... both wands are powerful but already powerful in different directions? Seems to fit more - they are both powerful but in opposite directions ...... hmmm

Does it really happen at the point they both may have had the possibility to do their first true choice in the magical world - the sorting? Did Tom have a choice? Or did the head just say "Slytherin"? No I don't think so ... think about Hermione and Harry. We definitely know that Harry chooses to go to Gryffindor house. And the story Hermione tells us that the hat is not only deciding but indeed "talking" with the kids about what he is about to suggest - so I think that Tom had the possibility to choose.

So - back on that stupid thing with the wand again ... the moment they both have their wands they are starting to make opposite choices!!!! BUT WHY????

Maybe Toms wand "triggers" some Slytherin-gen to get in gear and start working? And maybe some Gryffindor-gen is doing the same in Harry [panic: is this actually ME talking about Harry being the heir of Gryffindor :scared: :scared: ]. Could that possibly be???

Actually I have to confess I've "frightend" myself - because the first day I've read about Harry being the heir of Gryffindor my mind was refusing to take that in - it kept yelling: Oh nooooooooo must almost always the hero be the hero JUST BECAUSE HE IS THE HEIR OF SOMEBODY????? Can't a hero simply be a hero ON HIS VERY OWN ACCOUNT!!!!! I don't know if somebody can understand that point of view - but this is a great key to why I do love those Volumes so very much - Its all about ones own choices and not because someone is the son of a son of a son of a daugther of a son of somebody - and I know perfectly well that I will be grouchy for days IF THIS is going to be whats it all about ... being the heir of someone! Having a destiny and not being able to do something about it. This - for me - is a nightmare.

Sorry if this is offending someone - it isn't meant to do so. I am perfectly well with people who have other beliefs. So please everyone out there - don't feel offended - its just my point of view and I am not claiming that it is the right one :)

*******

But this shows me another way we could try to look at the "Riddle". I know in some interview that JKR was actually happy that nobody asked her about her "religious beliefs" because that would be a great give-away.... Does someone know to which church JKR belongs?

Sabine

phoenixsong

November 14th, 2003, 11:09 am

Great post, Sabine. I'm with you on wanting these stories NOT to be about "heirs" at least not in the sense of genetic heirs. I don't mind if we use the term "heir" metaphorically, as in Tom is the "true heir" of Slytherin because he shares Slytherin's ideas, talents and practices. Similarly, Harry could be the "heir" of Gryffindor in that he shares Gryffindor's bravery, loyalty and opposition to Slytherin. (Though I kind of like the idea that Neville is Gryffindor's genetic heir!).

Some thoughts on wands choosing their owners: it seems to me that even though they are "only" eleven at the time they get their first wands, Harry and Tom have already developed to a large degree their characters and personalities. When a wand "chooses" its owner, it is only finding that witch or wizard who fits it, but that potential owner only got to be the way they are based upon the choices they made. Follow me? And Ollivander's mention of Lily's first wand, and the implication that people can go through multiple wands in the course of a lifetime, implies that if people change over time (and hopefully we all do!), then they might become increasingly unsuited for the first wand that chose them, and require a new one to suit their new personality.

On the other hand, given that this is magic, we can also assume that the wand also has some influence over the wizard who owns it, that there is a mutual give-and-take between the strengths of the wizard and the strengths of the wand.

It does seem like the wand is somehow reading the "destiny" of the 11-year-old that walks into Ollivander's shop, but perhaps this isn't as constraining for most people. Tom and Harry have a unique kind of destiny.

whizbang121

November 14th, 2003, 4:14 pm

I like the idea that Neville is Gryffindor's heir, too. That may even have contributed to the confusion about which boy would be the one

I agree with phoenixsong about the wand choosing the wizard by somehow recognising a compatability with that individual. The wand reflects the wizard rather than making him.
The business about the both wands having the Fawkes feather core was a factor in my theory that Tom may originially have been destined to heal the rifts in the magical world, but his choices led him down a different path. That's why Harry had to come, to not only help stamp out racism and slavery, etc, but also to vanquish the dark lord. The point seems to be that the more potential or power an individual is born with the greater the impact of their choices on the world around them. Someone once asked if Hitler had chosen to serve others rather than himself how would the world be different. How would his tremendous potential have been used to the good. I suppose we could ask the question conversely about someone like Mother Teresa. How would the world be different if she had put herself first. These were people of tremendous power. The choice of how to use it, channel it, is what made the difference.

In the Harry mentored by Dumbledore scheme, it seems to me that the logical Voldemort mentor would be Dumbledore's nemesis, Grindelwald. So, Harry/Dumbledore, Voldemort/Grindelwald. If we say Voldemort/Slytherin, then it would be Harry/Gryffindor. No?

JKR is a member of the Church of Scotland which I believe is what we in america call the Presbyterian Church. This denomination professes predestination, but I'm not sure all its adherants do anymore.
All the images of the snakes remind me of, among other things, the Christian symbol of the devil, lucifer, the evil one. Actually, the Revelation of John is full of sevens and twelves and symbols like dragons and marks of the beast/serpent/devil, like the dark mark on the death eaters. I've occasionally wondered if a thread could be started to look at the HP series' relationship to this book in the New Testament, but it's focused on one current faith and is sometimes interpreted very literally, especially by fundamentalists. So I keep backing off. As you know, I am not a Christian, but my background is Catholic and my husband is an Episcopal deacon. He took all the same courses and passed the same exams as the priests do. It's not an honorary title. He studied hard, and in the days before spell check and grammar check, I corrected and typed all his papers. So some interesting discussions do come up. And while I do not believe that the storyline of the book of Revelations is similar to HP, still there are so many of the same symbols. (No socks, though.) And the repeated reminder by the sacrificed lamb that, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." I feel like that's going to come up somehow, perhaps in terms of time travel or the relationships of Harry to Gryffindor and Voldemort to Slytherin.
Reincarnation anyone?

JKR has woven so many layers into these books. She is amazing. So far we've seen alchemy, astrology, celtic and druid belief and mythology, greek and roman history and mythology, herbology, sociology, Jungian psychology and archtypes, European history, runes, wicca, word puzzles, fantastical beasts, obsession with sports involving balls and the careful choice of names all woven together. What have I missed? I don't think she missed very much at all. No doubt they will discover Atlantis and Lemuria in book six and travel to a galaxy far, far away in book seven! It wouldn't surprise me to find elements of John's Revelation represented in HP, as well.

Edit: I forgot Shakespeare. :huh: Sorry.

purplehawk

November 14th, 2003, 5:19 pm

I like the idea that Neville is Gryffindor's heir, too. That may even have contributed to the confusion about which boy would be the one.

I like this, too. I would like it even better if Neville and Harry share the heritage, as in Alice was Alice Potter, or Frank Longbottom's mother was James Potter's aunt... or something. Not that a relationship matters a whole lot, but if there is one, it would make sense to have kept the boys apart as they grew up, what with Death Eaters on the prowl and all the uncertainty about Voldemort's situation. Oh, how I wish we knew something more about the parents of both Harry and Neville! It has to be author's license that we don't. I just can't imagine why Harry hasn't already asked!

Whiz, JK's "layers" are frankly driving me mad... http://pronetworkpc.com/images/purp/tantrum2.gif

whizbang121

November 14th, 2003, 7:14 pm

The beauty is, we only need to read as deeply as we choose. It's enjoyable on all levels. JKR is in a class by herself.:agree:

Doggy

November 15th, 2003, 6:48 pm

since none of you seems to like my theory of another enchanted book :p I would like to ponder on the question: from where did Tom Riddle at the age of 16/17 know how to do an AK
Hmm.. Well it does say "you need to be good at Dark Magic". But shouldn't it be easy to trace dark magic? If someone practises dark magic.. well, Ministry authorities should be over in a flash..

Something I've gone stupid over:

How did Riddle find out about him being Slytherin's descendant. Or, is Riddle really Slytherin's descendant?

Sabine

November 15th, 2003, 7:18 pm

Hmm.. Well it does say "you need to be good at Dark Magic". But shouldn't it be easy to trace dark magic? If someone practises dark magic.. well, Ministry authorities should be over in a flash..

Something I've gone stupid over:

How did Riddle find out about him being Slytherin's descendant. Or, is Riddle really Slytherin's descendant?

Doggy try this one: http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=662727#post662727

It's about Grindelwald possibly being Toms grandfather

Sabine

whizbang121

November 15th, 2003, 8:39 pm

So the problem is this: Have Salazar Slytherin and Tom Riddle both been possessed by a third party entity, the "Dark Lord?"
(cue: scary music)

duhn duhn duhnnnnnn.

That would explain why a nice guy like Sal Slytherin suddenly panicked over the presence of muggle students in Hogwarts. And their suspect parents hanging around Flourish and Blotts every August might make some nervous, as well. Not to mention that they want to know if they can bring the parish priest to a quidditch match. So Sal starts to dabble in some kind of dark art to keep them away, or ... who knows what ... and stumbles on this possessing demon, this dark lord.

And could this entity, this dark lord actually be a "worse than dead" ancestor of Sal's? Has this demon been plaguing the descendants of Sal through the ages, waiting for the time when one of them would open the chamber for him? In fact, if Voldemort is the last ancestor of Slytherin, have there been others? Is the family under some kind of a curse?

I gotta go check the old thread on the ancestor of Slytherin. I think it was discussed there in the dusty past. Maybe I can find something in the restricted section.

Jessica

November 15th, 2003, 9:00 pm

I PMed lanifiel and Fuschsia to see if we should just hang out here for all non-Propshesy related discussions. I haven't got a reaply yet. If we're going to be limited the the Porphesy itself I'm probably going to just hang out here more than the Prophesy thread. :)

Sabine

November 15th, 2003, 9:21 pm

I just want to tell you that "Tom's grandpa" is up and out for discussion .. So Jessica, whizbang, purplehawk, phoenixsong and who ever else contributed to that piece of teamwork can have a look at it :) ... oups everyone could have a look :)

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=662810#post662810

Jessica I feel the same way about that. It did me so good to change my point of view ... all this steadily staring at Harry and the prophecy is not only tiresome but I tend to go over the same thoughts again and again and again ...

Having this layers for actually brainstorming is just great :)

Back soon

Sabine

Jessica

November 15th, 2003, 10:36 pm

JKR said that part of the reason that Book 5 was so long was because she had to give us information that we needed in order to solve the mystery.

This is just a partial list of things that come up in 5 that I think might be important in later books. Please add any that I missed. :)

Fidelius Charm: We learn more about how it works.

Dementors: Attack Harry yet again! I have a pet theory that they either picked up the Harry-hatred from the Death Eaters in Azkaban or they were reporting directly to someone as they were in OotP when they attacked Harry.

Petunia/Remember my Last: Where did that come from?

Room of Requirement: I think it will be back.

I'm spacing. I know I have more. I'll come back later :)

Sabine

November 15th, 2003, 11:08 pm

I know I will feel just fine in the layers. I don't care about post-count. Its off - thats fine with me - so I don't have to bother about double-posting :scared: :D :lol:

So the problem is this: Have Salazar Slytherin and Tom Riddle both been possessed by a third party entity, the "Dark Lord?"
(cue: scary music)

duhn duhn duhnnnnnn.

That would explain why a nice guy like Sal Slytherin suddenly panicked over the presence of muggle students in Hogwarts. And their suspect parents hanging around Flourish and Blotts every August might make some nervous, as well. Not to mention that they want to know if they can bring the parish priest to a quidditch match. So Sal starts to dabble in some kind of dark art to keep them away, or ... who knows what ... and stumbles on this possessing demon, this dark lord.

And could this entity, this dark lord actually be a "worse than dead" ancestor of Sal's? Has this demon been plaguing the descendants of Sal through the ages, waiting for the time when one of them would open the chamber for him? In fact, if Voldemort is the last ancestor of Slytherin, have there been others? Is the family under some kind of a curse?

I gotta go check the old thread on the ancestor of Slytherin. I think it was discussed there in the dusty past. Maybe I can find something in the restricted section.

So now .... shall we have a try on this one? Lets see....

I think Doggy was it who asked a very important question: If Slytherin and Voldemort were possessed by the same entity - where the heck was this entity hiding for thousand years? Was it sleeping somewhere - like having some hibernation and overslept? Or is it some Monster that comes alive every thousand years - then chooses its victim at random and COINCIDENTIALY picks two from the same family .... :shrug:

Now wait a minute .... we actually know a monster that was hiding for a long period in time ... in chamber to be precise .... does this help? I don't think so Harry killed it ... did he kill it or did he defeat it?

It is strange that one has actually to watch every single word.

If we ignore Grindelwald for a moment then it actually looks like Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, the snake that bites its tail.

The neverending struggle between good and bad, right and wrong, ... by the way .. theres something I wanted to ask you all and I kept forgetting it.. can someone tell me why Dumbledore says:

"Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened ....

Why between "right and easy" and not "right and wrong"? Is to choose the right thing never easy???? Or do I have to read that more in a sense of: you have a lot of thinking to do to choose the right thing ... not thinking over things is easy but leads in the wrong direction?

No - can't be - there is too much intuition involved too. but some people listen to their "gut-feelings" and others ignore them.

A curse ----- hmmm It would not only limit the possibility to choose for the Slytherins - it would almost rule out choices --------- hmmm

What other dark Wizards ARE mentioned in the books in combination with being a threat for the (wizarding)world? I can only remember Voldemort and Grindelwald and I put Slytherin in here too.

SAbine

whizbang121

November 16th, 2003, 4:01 am

I wish I had more time. Perhaps the lexicon? Which wizard? Or a search for Dark Wizards.

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/index-2.html

I found "Emeric the Evil," but there's no information on him. He was mentioned in passing in PS/SS.

Herpo the foul: Ancient Greek wizard who was the first know creator of a basilisk. He appears on famous wizard card #4. Herpo from the greek "to creep."

These came from the HP lexicon. I got through the K's.

Interesting about Herpo who created the first basilisk. Think it means anything?

"Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened ....
I don't understand the context either. Cedric never saw it coming. Hmmmmmm..... Maybe Cedric, who was an innocent bystander in the way of Lord Voldemort's plots, will become a symbol to the next generation who find themselves, like previous generations, having to face evil and resist it.

"Remember Cedric," will be like "Remember the Alamo" or whatever rouses the emotions of the army as it prepares for battle. It helps them focus on exactly what it is they are fighting for and against. Cedric's iinnate goodness and complete unawareness of any danger symbolizes a way of life that all people aspire to; the freedom to flourish without fear. This battle is never easy, but it is right.

Again the comparison can be made to the events of WWII. In the beginning, it was easier not to resist the small problems brought on by Hitler's ideology. It didn't seem like a big enough problem to fuss about. But this was used against the people to bring them under ever tighter control making resistance increasingly more difficult and dangerous.

I think Dumbledore is reminding them to resist the evil immediately. Don't wait. Remember Cedric. Remember the way of life you have grown up in and resist evil to preserve it.

Sabine

November 16th, 2003, 3:38 pm

Barbara Kennedy

November 16th, 2003, 3:46 pm

I know I will feel just fine in the layers. I don't care about post-count. Its off - thats fine with me - so I don't have to bother about double-posting :scared: :D :lol:

So now .... shall we have a try on this one? Lets see....

I think Doggy was it who asked a very important question: If Slytherin and Voldemort were possessed by the same entity - where the heck was this entity hiding for thousand years? Was it sleeping somewhere - like having some hibernation and overslept? Or is it some Monster that comes alive every thousand years - then chooses its victim at random and COINCIDENTIALY picks two from the same family .... :shrug:

Now wait a minute .... we actually know a monster that was hiding for a long period in time ... in chamber to be precise .... does this help? I don't think so Harry killed it ... did he kill it or did he defeat it?

It is strange that one has actually to watch every single word.

If we ignore Grindelwald for a moment then it actually looks like Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, the snake that bites its tail.

The neverending struggle between good and bad, right and wrong, ... by the way .. theres something I wanted to ask you all and I kept forgetting it.. can someone tell me why Dumbledore says:

Why between "right and easy" and not "right and wrong"? Is to choose the right thing never easy???? Or do I have to read that more in a sense of: you have a lot of thinking to do to choose the right thing ... not thinking over things is easy but leads in the wrong direction?

No - can't be - there is too much intuition involved too. but some people listen to their "gut-feelings" and others ignore them.

A curse ----- hmmm It would not only limit the possibility to choose for the Slytherins - it would almost rule out choices --------- hmmm

What other dark Wizards ARE mentioned in the books in combination with being a threat for the (wizarding)world? I can only remember Voldemort and Grindelwald and I put Slytherin in here too.

SAbine
I think an example of what he might have meant is Fudge. Look at how he has royally messed everything up by making the easy decisions.....
It doesn't HAVE to be someone openly recognized as 'evil.'

whizbang121

November 16th, 2003, 3:52 pm

I think an example of what he might have meant is Fudge. Look at how he has royally messed everything up by making the easy decisions.....
It doesn't HAVE to be someone openly recognized as 'evil.'

Excellent example! But he is somewhat malevolent in his pursuit of his own political ends. He has place the entire community in great danger to maintain his tenuous grip on what he believes is power.

purplehawk

November 16th, 2003, 7:45 pm

Excellent example! But he is somewhat malevolent in his pursuit of his own political ends. He has place the entire community in great danger to maintain his tenuous grip on what he believes is power.

I am so bad. I wanted to agree with you - but I was afraid it would be another off-topic post. I actually scrolled up to see where I was, just to be sure.

Any hoo, I have a new smiley for the occasion: http://pronetworkpc.com/images/purp/offtopic.gif

whizbang121

November 17th, 2003, 12:18 am

purplehawk

November 17th, 2003, 2:00 am

I love the smiley! :lol: Thanks. We need to be cheered up. I don't think there's a problem here with topics, but it's probably useful to have a train of thought to follow.

Anyone think Fudge will be voted out? I can't see him leading an army to battle the forces of evil.

I like it too! It's funny!

About Fudge - I've said it before and I'm standing by what I said - if there isn't some recall movement or public outcry about Fudge and his actions, I may shut my book and never read Potter again. I want to see trials, too, and sentences handed out for the Death Eaters Dumbledore and Order captured... especially for Kid Slick. I want Fudge ousted from office or forced to resign and Umbridge sent to Azkaban for ordering the Dementors to attack Harry and Dudley. That's abuse of office, attempted murder, conspiracy to murder, AND blatant violation of the International Statute of Secrecy - the same charge she and Fudge tried to frame Harry with!

I'm hoping that if time travel is part of the story, it's no more complicated than a time turner, magical device kind of thing. If the books get into relativity and physics it's going to damage the sense of magic in the tale. So while I think she might do something with time, I hope it doesn't get complicated.

I'm with you here! I can barely keep track of the timeline presented already and I don't relish being confused even further.

I still can't decide what I think about a demon possessing all the dark lords. Is there some item, a book, a spell, a lever in the chamber of secrets that releases the demon? Hmmmm.....

I can't either. I wonder if maybe the demon isn't somehow associated with old Sal himself - as in could he actually BE the demon? I really think that dude is still around in some form or fashion. Sure, Harry killed the basilisk, but we've already seen how the possessing person can leave a body and be perfectly okay after the fact. Voldemort did it with Quirrell - and Harry, for the matter.

phoenixsong

November 17th, 2003, 11:21 am

And while I do not believe that the storyline of the book of Revelations is similar to HP, still there are so many of the same symbols. (No socks, though.)A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her socked feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.(Hope this doesn't offend anyone, whizbang's comment just made me laugh!)

I think Doggy was it who asked a very important question: If Slytherin and Voldemort were possessed by the same entity - where the heck was this entity hiding for thousand years? Was it sleeping somewhere - like having some hibernation and overslept? Or is it some Monster that comes alive every thousand years - then chooses its victim at random and COINCIDENTIALY picks two from the same family .... But surely the history of the last 1000 years isn't so bereft of terrible wizards that we couldn't suspect them of being possessed, too? We variously hear Voldemort described as "the darkest wizard for 100 years" and "the darkest wizard of all times". If it is the latter, than I agree that the possession theory is unlikely. But if the former, then isn't it possible that all the worst dictators and butchers of history could have been possessed by "the Dark Lord"?

Why between "right and easy" and not "right and wrong"? Is to choose the right thing never easy???? Or do I have to read that more in a sense of: you have a lot of thinking to do to choose the right thing ... not thinking over things is easy but leads in the wrong direction?For me, this immediately brings to mind Pettigrew, who didn't seem to really think through the vast consequences of his decision to betray the Potters. He seems to have thought that it was simply a choice between their lives and his. He didn't even stop to think about the larger context of fighting the good fight against the "the most evil wizard who has ever existed." Sometimes it can be very difficult to know exactly what is right, but what is [/i]wrong[/i] is usually a bit clearer.

Sabine

November 17th, 2003, 11:58 am

I completely agree to that train of thought - I believe I've said so before - but I want to get rid off two things, so that I don't have to keep them in mind :D

Believe it or not - they are prophecy related :lol:

It is when Firenze is giving his first divination lesson:

He was nothing like any human teacher had ever had. His priority did not seem to be to teach them what he knew, but rather to impress upon them that nothing, not even centaurs' knowlege, was fool proof.

So- how foolproof is a prophecy???

We were once discussing the point if the "vanquishing" thats mentioned in the prophecy is already done. Have we come to an end there?

Anyway, Dumbledore is telling us:

Voldemort had been vanquished hours before, but his supporters....

And there is another thing that may hint to us that "to die at the hand of each other" does not mean Harry has to kill Voldemort in the end.

Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit

thats what he's saying to Tom during the fight in the MOM. Dumbledore always uses his words very well considerd... so merely taking Voldemorts life would not satisfy him .... does he tell us that taking the life away is not the clue to the "Riddle"???

I agree completely on behalf of Fudge and timetravel.

I still can't decide what I think about a demon possessing all the dark lords. Is there some item, a book, a spell, a lever in the chamber of secrets that releases the demon? Hmmmm.....

I can't either. I wonder if maybe the demon isn't somehow associated with old Sal himself - as in could he actually BE the demon? I really think that dude is still around in some form or fashion. Sure, Harry killed the basilisk, but we've already seen how the possessing person can leave a body and be perfectly okay after the fact. Voldemort did it with Quirrell - and Harry, for the matter.

Let my try to tell you all what I am thinking about it - it's complicated for me - so you know its going to be longwinded :grumble:

"Working" with the possibility that Grindelwald is Toms grandfather has certainly some advantages but I think it has some great disadvantage too. :sigh:

If Tom is possessed in some way by some evil Entity AND Grindelwald is his grandfather this could possibly mean two things:

Grindelwald - as we know - was a dark wirzard that needed defeating. And since Dumbledore is "particular famous" for this defeat, I am inclined to believe that Grindelwald was not only some "second-rate-wanna-be-bad-guy" but a real threat to the wizarding world.

The story of Harry defeating Tom could be some "replay" of Dumbledore/Grindelwald right down to the means how to defeat Tom/Voldemort

If Tom is possessed - Grindelwald would have to have been too. That could mean Tom had the help of his grandfather (by means of hints to the chamber, he told him he is a Slytherin, may have advised him in how to learn the unforgivables..) but Tom could not be possessed at the tíme he found and opened the chamber because Grindelwald was still alive then. And I don't suppose some Entity would possesses two people at the same time.

This doesn't really hurt much, because Tom could have de facto "run into the "remainings" of Grindelwald". Grindelwald was defeated in Toms last year at Hogwarts. After that Tom vanished and travelled long and far .... so the possibility is still there. He could even have looked for the remainings of Grindelwald and "adopted" them willingly.

The problem - for me - is: that would be two "dark lords" within 100 years that have been possessed by an evil Entity and they would be both from one family!!!

That would be a "problem" to me, because I would think it highly unlikely when it just was some Entity.

It wouldn't be such a problem to me if the Entity is indeed connected to Slytherin.

But if this Entity is connected to Slytherin there is just another point that drives me mad: It would somehow "erase" the possibility for Tom to really have choises!!!

So far we would only know about 4 members of the Slytherin family Slytherin himself, Grindelwald, Toms mother and Tom. That would mean 3 out of 4 have gone bad :frown: :frown:

And there is one major thing that is not at all looked at, in that above mentioned: The real heir of Slytherin - thing.

Tom is the real heir of Slytherin. Grindelwald could not have opended the chamber, even if was at Hogwarts some time, because we are told that Tom and Harry had been the only parselmouths around probably since Slytherin himself. If Grindelwald would have been a paselmouth too, I am sure Dumbledore would have know that.

But would it be necessary for Grindelwald to be a parselmouth too?

I think not, maybe he wasn't as "gifted" as Tom. Maybe he never had the talents to be a real "dark lord" as Tom was - he may have tried to do so - but something was missing.... Maybe he was a parselmouth but he never was at Hogwarts?

Slytherin left the school in anger. Would he send his kids, and grandkids to a school which he left in anger? Well he must have - one thinks - why else would he seal a chamber for his "real heir"? What would be the point of that if he was to send the kids to some other school?

But then again - he may have left Hogwarts and indeed founded Durmstrang and forgot about Hogwarts for a while. And maybe Grindelwald was at Durmstrang.

And maybe Tom's mother - being the black sheep of the family - decided to live in England - far away from possible influence from the family and Tom came to Hogwarts sort of coincidently?

Now what is the outcome of all this rambling supposed to be?? Frankly - I don't know. I'd like to "chain" Tom and Grindelwald together plus fitting the "possessed theory" in it, simply because I would like to keep timetravel out of it....

But then again: Time and space matter in magic. At least thats what Snape tells us, and he should know.

:sigh:

Sabine

Sabine

November 17th, 2003, 12:28 pm

But surely the history of the last 1000 years isn't so bereft of terrible wizards that we couldn't suspect them of being possessed, too? We variously hear Voldemort described as "the darkest wizard for 100 years" and "the darkest wizard of all times". If it is the latter, than I agree that the possession theory is unlikely. But if the former, then isn't it possible that all the worst dictators and butchers of history could have been possessed by "the Dark Lord"?

But doesn't this whole being-possessed-business interfere with ones choices??? That is indeed the greatest flaw that I see in it! Being possessed makes the bad one's rather a victim - taking away the blame of them? To me it highla interfers with choices - even if i like the theory because I think it would be "easier" to get rid of that Entity than to see Harry actually killing someone - even if it is Voldemort!

For me, this immediately brings to mind Pettigrew, who didn't seem to really think through the vast consequences of his decision to betray the Potters. He seems to have thought that it was simply a choice between their lives and his. He didn't even stop to think about the larger context of fighting the good fight against the "the most evil wizard who has ever existed." Sometimes it can be very difficult to know exactly what is right, but what is [/i]wrong[/i] is usually a bit clearer.

As for Peter: Having read and reread the scene in the pensieve, it seems to me more and more curious that they choose Peter in the first place! The way they treated Peter was horrible. He was supposed to be their freind! I somehow think James and Sirius allowed Peter to be in that group just to have someone to pick on. They haven't been real friends to Peter at all, how could Sirius be so ..... I can't think of a word ... but how could Sirius possibly anticipate that Peter should have rather allowed to be killed? For them?? The way they treated him? Fat chance. There is another phrase in german... meaning that you always get back from people how you treat them. It's not that I think Peter did the right thing - no way - its just - I can understand him.

For me it brings to mind the history of Hogwarts. The founders stubbornly stuck to their biases - they couldn't work out how to compromise. They took the easy way out - divided the school into 4 houses so that every founder could have it his/her way.

Sometimes I'm asking me if that is somehow the root to all this meddle.

Sabine

purplehawk

November 17th, 2003, 2:52 pm

But doesn't this whole being-possessed-business interfere with ones choices??? That is indeed the greatest flaw that I see in it! Being possessed makes the bad one's rather a victim - taking away the blame of them? To me it highla interfers with choices - even if i like the theory because I think it would be "easier" to get rid of that Entity than to see Harry actually killing someone - even if it is Voldemort!

The choice would still be inherent if they went looking for the demon, though, as I expect happened. It's more likely there isn't a demon, per se, but more that they transformed themselves into pure evil via dark means and paths. It's possible - maybe probable.

As for Peter: Having read and reread the scene in the pensieve, it seems to me more and more curious that they choose Peter in the first place! The way they treated Peter was horrible. He was supposed to be their freind! I somehow think James and Sirius allowed Peter to be in that group just to have someone to pick on. They haven't been real friends to Peter at all, how could Sirius be so ..... I can't think of a word ... but how could Sirius possibly anticipate that Peter should have rather allowed to be killed? For them?? The way they treated him? Fat chance. There is another phrase in german... meaning that you always get back from people how you treat them. It's not that I think Peter did the right thing - no way - its just - I can understand him.

I didn't see it that way, Sabine. I thought the four Marauders were tight buds, so to speak, including Peter. He was a tag-along, but they actually befriended him and not just tolerated him. They helped him become an animagus. There always seems to be one oddball in any clique. My kids tease me to no end. It's funny and I often inadvertently make myself an easy target. It's all in fun - no offense intended and none taken.

For me it brings to mind the history of Hogwarts. The founders stubbornly stuck to their biases - they couldn't work out how to compromise. They took the easy way out - divided the school into 4 houses so that every founder could have it his/her way.

Sometimes I'm asking me if that is somehow the root to all this meddle.

Sabine

See? I don't agree with this take either. I think Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw were able to compromise and work out issues peacefully, but Slytherin was a wild card who wanted his way or no way. I've always been of the opinion Helga and Rowena were no match for Slytherin in a debate and, as usually happens, the final argument came down to the two strongest personalities... Gryffindor and Slytherin, but with Gryffindor representing the viewpoints of the two witches. At least that's how I see it. Slytherin was a renegade - the others were team players.

whizbang121

November 17th, 2003, 2:52 pm

We variously hear Voldemort described as "the darkest wizard for 100 years" and "the darkest wizard of all times".

Phoenixsong, I often see the "darkest wizard of all times" mentioned, but I don't know where it is. I remember one about 100 years, and I remember that Tom Riddle wanted to be the greatest sorcerer in the world. Purplehawk will know.:agree:
Socked feet.:lol:

He was nothing like any human teacher had ever had. His priority did not seem to be to teach them what he knew, but rather to impress upon them that nothing, not even centaurs' knowlege, was fool proof.

The first thing I had to learn when I began to study astrology, was that "nothing supercedes the will of man." I forgot who said it, but it was my excuse for avoiding all that math for many years.:blush: Could there be a connection? I think Sinistra will recognise the quote if I ask her.

And there is another thing that may hint to us that "to die at the hand of each other" does not mean Harry has to kill Voldemort in the end.
This is a toughie. I'm gradually becoming more convinced that "either must die at the hand of the other" happened in Godric's Hollow on Oct 31, 1981. I wonder if that whole phrase, "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives," all refers to the events of that Halloween night that Voldemort tried to kill Harry and was ripped from his body instead.:eyebrows:

Gotta run. Be back soon.

purplehawk

November 17th, 2003, 3:16 pm

Phoenixsong, I often see the "darkest wizard of all times" mentioned, but I don't know where it is. I remember one about 100 years, and I remember that Tom Riddle wanted to be the greatest sorcerer in the world. Purplehawk will know.:agree:

It's in PoA, Whiz, but not quite as referenced above. Sirius spoke it in the Shrieking Shack:

"What was there to be gained by fighting the most evil wizard who has ever existed?"...

Riddle referred to Voldemort (his later self) as "the greatest sorcerer in the world." And Voldemort, in GoF, named himself "mightier than any wizard living."

Then, in the first chapter of CoS, there is this passage:

At the age of one year old, Harry had somehow survived a curse from the greatest Dark sorcerer of all time, Lord Voldemort, whose name most witches and wizards still feared to speak...

I hope that's enough!

This is a toughie. I'm gradually becoming more convinced that "either must die at the hand of the other" happened in Godric's Hollow on Oct 31, 1981. I wonder if that whole phrase, "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives," all refers to the events of that Halloween night that Voldemort tried to kill Harry and was ripped from his body instead.:eyebrows:

Gotta run. Be back soon.

Whiz, if this is true - and I'm not saying it isn't - wouldn't the series have been over before it started? What's left for Harry to accomplish?

Sabine

November 17th, 2003, 3:38 pm

I didn't see it that way, Sabine. I thought the four Marauders were tight buds, so to speak, including Peter. He was a tag-along, but they actually befriended him and not just tolerated him. They helped him become an animagus. There always seems to be one oddball in any clique. My kids tease me to no end. It's funny and I often inadvertently make myself an easy target. It's all in fun - no offense intended and none taken.

There is a lot of teasing going on in my family too. So I know what you mean. And there's no problem if its sort of balanced and really fun for everyone.

But if you take a closer look at the relationship to Peter you can see that that was not the case. Just remember how they talked about Peter back in PoA. They didn't treat Peter as equal.

See? I don't agree with this take either. I think Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw were able to compromise and work out issues peacefully, but Slytherin was a wild card who wanted his way or no way. I've always been of the opinion Helga and Rowena were no match for Slytherin in a debate and, as usually happens, the final argument came down to the two strongest personalities... Gryffindor and Slytherin, but with Gryffindor representing the viewpoints of the two witches. At least that's how I see it. Slytherin was a renegade - the others were team players.

I think ist highly possible that I am wrong - no question about that. But they were going to found a school! So the question that should have bothered tem most should not have been "How can we 4 best go along?" but "What would be for the best benefit for the students?"

And in my eyes dividing them, telling them: you are smarter that the others, you are braver than the others a.s.o. is not for the benefit of the students. Yeah sure - its the choices that count not what house you are sorted in. But instead of telling the kids that the choices matter and let them make those choices - they go on and sort of "pre-condemn" them.

I would think the average school-kid of 11 years is easily affected by that. "I don't have to try to be brave - I'm in Hufflepuff, you know!" I know that is exaggrated but you certainly get the drift.

And it doesn't help to say: Harry did choose, so they could have done too. Harry is by no means some average student!

Its all about choices - but kids don't know that, they have to learn that. And adults and teachers are supposed to help them.

Oh and by the way - we are really good at "agree-ing to disagree" :)

Sabine

phoenixsong

November 17th, 2003, 4:24 pm

But doesn't this whole being-possessed-business interfere with ones choices??? That is indeed the greatest flaw that I see in it! Being possessed makes the bad one's rather a victim - taking away the blame of them? To me it highla interfers with choices - even if i like the theory because I think it would be "easier" to get rid of that Entity than to see Harry actually killing someone - even if it is Voldemort!Well, although I am not even really a supporter of the possessing demon alive for 1000 years theory, for the sake of argument, I don't think it really takes away the importance of choices. Firstly, I think that someone like Grindelwald or Riddle would invite the demon to possess them. Secondly, if the first possibility is not true, then we could get a scenario where the underlying, possessed person actually chooses to expel the demon. Or, as purplehawk said:The choice would still be inherent if they went looking for the demon, though, as I expect happened. It's more likely there isn't a demon, per se, but more that they transformed themselves into pure evil via dark means and paths. It's possible - maybe probable.
Sabine: it seems to me that the division of the four houses does not mean that an individual in one house is bereft of the qualities of the other three, but that his or her predominant trait, the one that underlies most of the choices he or she makes, is the basis for his or her placement in a particular house. Everybody knows that Hermione is as smart as any Ravenclaw, but I suspect that Ravenclaws are likely to be more scholastic, or academic, whereas Hermione's learning is almost subservient to her unflinching commitment to boldly use it.

It is possible that such a division could be detrimental to the students' education, but there could be positive aspects to being in an environment that nurtures your best qualities: kind of like we have special science and math skills for kids who are gifted in those areas. You could say that it is bad for them to miss out on a more well-rounded education, or bad for the other kids to miss out on the chance to be around their more-gifted peers, but surely there are real advantages for the kids who get to be around others who understand where they're coming from.

Sabine

November 17th, 2003, 4:59 pm

Sabine: it seems to me that the division of the four houses does not mean that an individual in one house is bereft of the qualities of the other three, but that his or her predominant trait, the one that underlies most of the choices he or she makes, is the basis for his or her placement in a particular house. Everybody knows that Hermione is as smart as any Ravenclaw, but I suspect that Ravenclaws are likely to be more scholastic, or academic, whereas Hermione's learning is almost subservient to her unflinching commitment to boldly use it.

Thats exactly what I think too: the hat looks for the overbalanced skills or talents or something like that.

We seem to know, but the kids don't! "If the hat puts me in Slytherin I'd rather go home again!" Most of them think the Hufflepuffs are - now what was that word that they were using? ...

It is possible that such a division could be detrimental to the students' education, but there could be positive aspects to being in an environment that nurtures your best qualities: kind of like we have special science and math skills for kids who are gifted in those areas. You could say that it is bad for them to miss out on a more well-rounded education, or bad for the other kids to miss out on the chance to be around their more-gifted peers, but surely there are real advantages for the kids who get to be around others who understand where they're coming from.

Probably is dividing them something thats ... now what was that .... curse and blessing - but I'm not so shure that the disadvantages do not overrule.

Sabine

whizbang121

November 17th, 2003, 5:42 pm

Purplehawk, Thanks for the references. I knew you'd have them. ;)
Whiz, if this is true - and I'm not saying it isn't - wouldn't the series have been over before it started? What's left for Harry to accomplish?
He must vanquish the dark lord. This is one reason to consider the "possession" theory seriously.
Even if we prove that when Riddle's body "died" that part of the prophesy was fulfilled, his consciousness for whatever reason, is still functioning and must be dealt with.

Then there's the "deliberate error" in book 2 about Voldemort being the last ancestor of Slytherin. I've wondered if Slytherin stumbled on something and brought down a curse on himself and his descendants: a demon, a group of demons, ancestral demons? Slytherin must have had descendants straight through down to Tom Riddle, but we get the impression that only Tom has ever opened the CoS. And Dumbledore speculates that along with Slytherin, Tom and Harry are probably the only two parseltongues to ever come to Hogwarts. Perhaps none of Sal's earlier descendants had enough seething resentment or native talent to spend the five years doing the research and study to succeed in opening the CoS. Is it clear in the books whether Tom was born a parseltongue, or did he learn it in his studies? Hmmmm..... Never thought of that before.

I'm wondering if the choices thing is being misunderstood in some way. I posted the following in the "power, and a future" thread.

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20114&page=1&pp=30

in CoS, when Harry says he asked the Sorting Hat to put him in Gryffindor, Dumbledore tells him:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Cos, pg333, Am ed
"Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes you very different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Choices reflect the intention of the individual. And the intention guides the will. So maybe the topic can be salvaged. The topic is the powers that Voldemort transferred to Harry and how their different intentions worked to utilize these powers, which in themselves are neither good nor evil. Voldemort intends to work evil and this is reflected in the choices he makes. Harry's intentions are to do good and so his intentions reverse the evil plots of Lord Voldemort and foil him in each book. So as Dumbledore says, the choices show what they truly are. Not their abilities, because while Harry is arguably more powerful, he doesn't yet have the all the knowledge or experience that Voldemort has at his disposal.
But the topic here is the powers transferred to Harry by Voldemort in his Oct 31 1981, attempt to kill the infant Harry with a death curse that didn't do what it was supposed to do, and how that repelled curse gave Harry powers and a future to foil the Dark Lord's plots by using his own weapons against him.

In all fairness, there are lots of holes in the story that JKR hasn't filled in, yet and we can only wait for her to relate to us the histories of all the characters. I'm hoping the next book will be out before Purplehawk is a grandmother again. But............................

purplehawk

November 17th, 2003, 6:14 pm

I hereby solemnly swear I will purchase a full set of Harry Potter books for my new grandchild's birth day, if JK will just cooperate and get Book Six finished by then!

Sabine, I found this passage in PoA, which might shed a little light on the Pettigrew connection with the other three Marauders:

"Pettigrew... that fat little boy who was always tagging around after them at Hogwarts?" said Madam Rosmerta.

"Hero-worshipped Black and Potter," said Professor McGonagall. "Never quite in their league, talent-wise. I was often rather sharp with him... Stupid boy... foolish boy... he was always hopeless at dueling..."

It would appear Pettigrew has had trouble fitting in on all counts. He apparently attached himself to James, Sirius, and Remus as a school boy and young adult. He later attached himself to Voldemort. He just seems like one of those people who enjoys the reflected glory of others and yet has a treacherous streak that has flared lethally once and may yet again.

Sabine

November 17th, 2003, 6:37 pm

The prophecy is already fullfilled - I was on that train too, I remember, why did I leave it ... I should check my posts... there was something......

Anyway - so lets jump on that train again...

*snitchnicking the prophecy out of whizbang's sigy*

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... check
born to those who have thrice defied him, check
born as the seventh month dies ... check
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, check
but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... obviously
and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ...
the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies.

So the red line is the one what its all about.

He must vanquish the dark lord. This is one reason to consider the "possession" theory seriously.
Even if we prove that when Riddle's body "died" that part of the prophesy was fulfilled, his consciousness for whatever reason, is still functioning and must be dealt with.

So Dumbledore tells us that the Dark Lord was vanquished (hours before). Voldemort died - well only the body died - but he died . If we would assume the prophecy is fullfilled then that would put Harry out of the play!!!! (Memory seems to dawn on me - I think I know again why I once decided no to go on with that :frown: ) The prophecy would be done and over with and we could wait for a new prophecy to pop up. "To die at the hand of each other" would have refered to the events at Godrics Hollow. IF we assume Harry has to deal with the left-overs of Voldemort than the prophecy is not fullfilled yet.

I skipped the thought that the prophecy was fullfilled because Dumbledore doesn't seem to think so! Dumbledore knows the prophecy for 15 years. I'm sure he turned it upside down not just one time. HE knows so much more than we do and still, when Harry asks him: "so does that mean that ... that one of us has got to kill the other one ... in the end?"

He says: "Yes" not "I'm afraid, yes" not "Yes, I believe so" - Just a plain "Yes" with no way out of it :frown: :frown:

Then there's the "deliberate error" in book 2 about Voldemort being the last ancestor of Slytherin. I've wondered if Slytherin stumbled on something and brought down a curse on himself and his descendants: a demon, a group of demons, ancestral demons? Slytherin must have had descendants straight through down to Tom Riddle, but we get the impression that only Tom has ever opened the CoS.

Infact we never hear of any other family of Slytherin except for Tom and his mother... everytime I read or write this goose-bumps start to crawl up on my back and my mind is whispering "tiiiiiiiiimetraaaavell" :scared: :scared: :scared: But this surely must be overreacting - we don't know about the Gryffindor, Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff - family - but thats not half as "frightening"....

And Dumbledore speculates that along with Slytherin, Tom and Harry are probably the only two parseltongues to ever come to Hogwarts. Perhaps none of Sal's earlier descendants had enough seething resentment or native talent to spend the five years doing the research and study to succeed in opening the CoS. Is it clear in the books whether Tom was born a parseltongue, or did he learn it in his studies? Hmmmm..... Never thought of that before.

Hm I'm not so sure about parseltongue ... I think you can't learn it ... Ron says something about it, but I can't remember exactly what... maybe purplehawk knows.

Sabine

Jessica

November 17th, 2003, 6:41 pm

sindatur

November 17th, 2003, 6:41 pm

Hope it's not too late to chime in with my list of "Central Mystery" items:

1. The Prophecy - What it actually means, the hidden truth twisted in through the careful wording.
2. What exactly happened at the Potter's the night Harry's parents were killed.
3. Choices
4. Hermione hasn't let go of SPEW, there's a reason
5. Lily's eyes
6. Harry's ancestors
7. The Veil
8. Dumbledore's "Dark Lord" fighting prior to Tom/Voldemort, and how was Grindelwald defeated.
{Dang you're right, this could go on and on and on...}

Sabine

November 17th, 2003, 6:57 pm

:welcome: Sindatur, nice you've dropped in :)

We should go and put all those lists in one post and then try to work on them point by point ...or something along the line - because there are really good points on that list, maybe our brains would be thankful if we gave them the chance to ponder on some minor problems for a change :D :whistle:

Thanks for the information Jessica.

I can see where the problem is - and it is by no means one that can easily be solved ... three months from now there will newer newbies :D (no Jessica you don't need to correct that, I know its not good :) ) and those who are newbies today will then be equaly "bored" to go over the "old stuff" again and agein....

Maybe it would be a good idea to somehow devote one forum for "advanced discussions" or something along that line.

Sabine

purplehawk

November 17th, 2003, 7:00 pm

Dumbledore knows the prophecy for 15 years. I'm sure he turned it upside down not just one time. HE knows so much more than we do and still, when Harry asks him: "so does that mean that ... that one of us has got to kill the other one ... in the end?"

He says: "Yes" not "I'm afraid, yes" not "Yes, I believe so" - Just a plain "Yes" with no way out of it :frown: :frown:

Yep, that's what he said. "Yes." Plainly and simply. And that's the reason I'm thinking we haven't gotten there yet, wherever "there" is. I don't want to talk time, either. I get so confused! I once looked at that Oruboris thread (or whatever it's called) and decided not to ever look at it again. Too far "out there" for me!

Hm I'm not so sure about parseltongue ... I think you can't learn it ... Ron says something about it, but I can't remember exactly what... maybe purplehawk knows.

Sabine

Here are the applicable quotes on parseltongue:

"So?" said Harry. "I bet loads of people here can do it."

"Oh, no they can't," said Ron. "It's not a very common gift. Harry, this is bad."

...

Ron shook his head. Both he and Hermione were looking as though someone had died...

"It matters," said Hermione, speaking at last in a hushed voice, "because being able to talk to snakes was what Salazar Slytherin was famous for. That's why the symbol of Slytherin House is a serpent."

"Exactly," said Ron. "And now the whole school's going to think you're his great-great-great-great-grandson or something - "

"But I'm not," said Harry with a panic he couldn't quite explain.

"You'll find that hard to prove," said Hermione. "He lived about a thousand years ago; for all we know, you could be."

Riddle and Dumbledore later added these last two quotes:

"... Probably the only two Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself... "

"You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort - who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure... "

whizbang121

November 17th, 2003, 7:06 pm

Hi guys!

I just wanted to let you know I got a response from Fuchsia about the reason the Prophesy was closed.

Apparently it was because we were using too many inside references and delving from the topic at hand to the point where newbies would be intimidated if they tried to post.

FYI Our Hogsmeade access could be revoked (or not given) if the Mods deem that we're doing this too much.

Luckily we already have this thread (thanks whiz :) ) so we should be okay.

The same thing is true with the AASS thread so I;m going to post this in the Sevage thread too.
Newbies wouldn't be intimidate if they read back a page or two. the alternative is the Mark Evans thread. Each page is identical to the one before because no one ever reads anyone else's posts, or at least they didn't last time I was there. It doesn't seem logical to open to the last page of a thread, without even having read the opening post as is often the case, and start talking about something out of the clear blue. In normal company, it would be considered rude to interrupt like this.
But we've never been off putting to newbies and we're willing to allow anyone into the conversation. We're always picking up new people.

I think some thought may be given not only to the comfort of newbies, but to consideration of those already in the middle of a discussion. It should be a two way street.
____________________

:welcome: Sindatur, nice you've dropped in :)

We should go and put all those lists in one post and then try to work on them point by point ...or something along the line - because there are really good points on that list, maybe our brains would be thankful if we gave them the chance to ponder on some minor problems for a change :D :whistle:

Sabine
:lol: That's what got us here in the first place. We can't seperate the topics very effectively. Oh well. We're only human.
Maybe it would be a good idea to somehow devote one forum for "advanced discussions" or something along that line.

Maybe that's the solution. As discussions advance and become complex, zap them into a different forum and start the topic again in the regular forum for newbies.

As for the prophesy, it seems to me that either one has died at the hand of the other, Tom Riddle at the hand of Harry, or Harry has vanquished the dark lord. I prefer the first, but which ever it is, the other is yet to be accomplished. Dumbledore thinks it's the vanquished part and one must yet kill the other. But sometimes, Dumbledore is speculating. I won't argue with him, though. I prefer the other way around, but either way, the job is not finished yet.

Jessica

November 17th, 2003, 7:14 pm

Actually I would have said "newer newbies" too. I think it only sounds wrong.

I agree that it's kind of limiting to break things up into smaller subtopics when you're trying to delve into all of the minutia that contribute to the central mystery.

But we have this thread so it's all good.

Sabine

November 17th, 2003, 7:31 pm

Newbies wouldn't be intimidate if they read back a page or two. the alternative is the Mark Evans thread. Each page is identical to the one before because no one ever reads anyone else's posts, or at least they didn't last time I was there. It doesn't seem logical to open to the last page of a thread, without even having read the opening post as is often the case, and start talking about something out of the clear blue. In normal company, it would be considered rude to interrupt like this.
But we've never been off putting to newbies and we're willing to allow anyone into the conversation. We're always picking up new people.

I think some thought may be given not only to the comfort of newbies, but to consideration of those already in the middle of a discussion. It should be a two way street.

I think you are right there whizbang ... I still can remember ... I sat there for days and read every single post from the first prophecy thread and then ... having finally read the last post and was getting ready for my first post ever in those forums THEY HAD CLOSED DOWN THE THREAD!!!!!! I was furious - but then I found the new one :lol: :lol:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe it would be a good idea to somehow devote one forum for "advanced discussions" or something along that line.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe that's the solution. As discussions advance and become complex, zap them into a different forum and start the topic again in the regular forum for newbies.

If you think this is a good idea just go along and suggest it to some of the mods. I think you - or some of you, know them much better than I do.

As for the prophesy, it seems to me that either one has died at the hand of the other, Tom Riddle at the hand of Harry, or Harry has vanquished the dark lord. I prefer the first, but which ever it is, the other is yet to be accomplished. Dumbledore thinks it's the vanquished part and one must yet kill the other. But sometimes, Dumbledore is speculating. I won't argue with him, though. I prefer the other way around, but either way, the job is not finished yet.

whizbang I think you are missing something - or I am reading it wrong --- just so that everyone can try to follow my argument I'm going to snitch the porphecy again:

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies.

Nowhere in the prophecy is a piece that says you have to vanquish the dark lord AND kill him.

True - it says The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches but this is only telling us that he has the power to do so. There is only one line that says Harry has to kill him and that is: and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. Can you see what I mean?

*****************

Thanks for all the quotes purplehawk :tu:

It doesn't clearly solve the matter, but it doesn't look like one could learn parseltongue?

Jassica it sounds just awful :lol: :lol: newer newbies :eyebrows: :rolleyes:

Sabine

sindatur

November 17th, 2003, 8:09 pm

LOL, I was reading the forums for about 2 months before I even registered to post, for that very same reason, I wanted to be sure I had followed a conversation and knew what was being said before commenting.

And the worst part about the conversations repeating every single page is, you get sucked back into it even if you've been through it already, because someone will bring up something that's clearly resolved in Canon, or an interview and so you reply with the correction, and the whole circle starts again. Kinda like the time travel temporal loop thing, even when you know what's going to happen, you can't do anything to change it, LOL.

purplehawk

November 17th, 2003, 10:55 pm

I've been here since the end of July and racked up a lot of posts in those grueling arguments with theboywholived, as some of us will recall. I wasn't trying to get a large posting tally or to get into Hogsmeade. I just got caught in that situation with him and it seemed it was never going to end in consensus or even in an agreement to disagree! So I just ended it myself by asking him to please stop posting all his questions and remarks to me... That didn't work out too well, though. Theboywholived left the forums. :frown:

I mention that for two reasons. The first is relative to newbies. It seems lately that a few new folks seem bent on posting, posting, posting. I never noticed it until I began to read the "Access to Hogsmeade" thread. I am not a fan of Hogsmeade - the whole premise still bothers me. I'm willing to give it a chance, but I wonder if Hogsmeade isn't the reason newbies act as they do!

The second reason is a reference to the friendship that has grown among us in the many iterations of the Prophecy threads. Whiz once called it "magical" and it was an apt choice of word. We transcended the anonymity of the internet, the rules of the forums, and ended up talking about our everyday lives... our kids, grandchildren, our canine presidential candidate, a killer cat and a sex-challenged parrot, our various illnesses, the important moments of our lives, and not least of all - Harry Potter.

In short, we created our own Hogmeade within the archives of the prophecy threads... a community that has carried forth here and in our Cream and Sugar home base... and has probably contributed to the feeling of "chumminess" a new poster might find difficult to break into.

I consider those friendships a boon - a very good thing - and I'd be willing to bet my last dollar this situation is similar to the one that resulted in the creation of Hogsmeade in the first place.

Is there a solution? I favor granting Hogsmeade access the way it's done in the Potter books. All Third-Years and above should be able to go there. That way, you get some older people as well as the younger crowd already entrenched there.

Jessica

November 17th, 2003, 11:20 pm

purplehawk, I agree completely. Beautifully said :)

On the other hand, I can see the point. As someone who came late in the game I was a little intimidated to start posting. Once I did I was fine, but it can be a little scary to jump in.

NOTE TO NEWBIES ON/TO THIS THREAD: Let this be a lesson to you. We're quite nice and we're eager to hear your ideas :)

whizbang121

November 18th, 2003, 12:02 am

[/COLOR]I guess we were a little intimidating, and probably gave the impression of a tight clique. But we can't see lurkers to invite them in, or I'm sure we would have. And lots of brave souls do jump in safely. And I think purplehawk did make a good point about newbies just posting to get to Hogsmeade, but that's why the mods review posts before signing permission forms. Those who just post frantically and have nothing to say, don't get in. Good point about how Hogsmeade came to be in the first place. I'm content in the quidditch pitch, if they let us stay here. In the end, it will all work out for the best.[COLOR=Black]

Jessica

November 18th, 2003, 12:03 am

Exactly, I'm perfectly happy right here.

Now that I'm a fifth year I don't care so much about my post count :)

And now, back to brainstorming!

Sabine

November 18th, 2003, 12:07 am

Exactly, I'm perfectly happy right here.

Now that I'm a fifth year I don't care so much about my post count :)

And now, back to brainstorming!

agreed to all of the above mentioned Sindatur, purplehawk, Jessica, whizbang ...

And Jessica I am a newer newbie :rasp: :rasp: this phrase doesn't seem sooo bad after all. And I'm not posting for postcount so I am fine in here.

And now lets just stop acting as if this is some funeral :)

Sabine

whizbang121

November 18th, 2003, 12:39 am

All right! :tu:

Where were we?:lol:

Jessica

November 18th, 2003, 12:41 am

purplehawk

November 18th, 2003, 1:23 am

Congratulations, sindatur! Whizbang, tell him what he's won!

Huh? Won what? What's up with that?

Jessica

November 18th, 2003, 3:04 am

Bad joke.

His was the last post so he was the winner. Like a game show?

Bad joke.

purplehawk

November 18th, 2003, 3:23 am

Don't worry about it... I usually don't get the good ones either.

whizbang121

November 18th, 2003, 4:39 am

Bad joke.

His was the last post so he was the winner. Like a game show?

Bad joke.

I get it! I got it! (Is there a smiley with a lightbulb over the head?) :lol:
Sindatur won a box of homemade chocolate chip cookies and year's supply of virtual pizza!

purplehawk

November 18th, 2003, 4:52 am

I get it! I got it! (Is there a smiley with a lightbulb over the head?) :lol:

http://pronetworkpc.com/images/purp/idea.gif

And for Sindatur... http://pronetworkpc.com/images/purp/pizza.gif

whizbang121

November 18th, 2003, 5:20 am

Real Food ..... smileys!
That's cool, and so us, purplehawk.;)

I went back and picked this up on the bottom of the last page.

Nowhere in the prophecy is a piece that says you have to vanquish the dark lord AND kill him.

True - it says The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches but this is only telling us that he has the power to do so. There is only one line that says Harry has to kill him and that is: and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. Can you see what I mean?

I see your point. Rather than two seperate events, the "power to vanquish" is what Harry uses or will use to kill the dark lord.

The prophesy thread has only been closed a few hours, and already I'm slipping into total confusion...........

............ power the dark lord knows not .........
JKR said it's what keeps him going.
What keeps Harry going that Voldemort knows not?
Think think think.

Have we tried courage yet?

phoenixsong

November 18th, 2003, 10:47 am

Going back a ways...
This is a toughie. I'm gradually becoming more convinced that "either must die at the hand of the other" happened in Godric's Hollow on Oct 31, 1981. I wonder if that whole phrase, "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives," all refers to the events of that Halloween night that Voldemort tried to kill Harry and was ripped from his body instead.:eyebrows:

Gotta run. Be back soon.

Whiz, if this is true - and I'm not saying it isn't - wouldn't the series have been over before it started? What's left for Harry to accomplish?Well, if this were true, then what the series could be about would be, perhaps, understanding, or realization, coming to terms with what has happened. But isn't the point of whizbang's theory that even though the "dying" may be over, the "vanquishing" is not? Though if I understand Sabine's point, she argues that the prophecy does not speak of one having to vanquish the other: one is able to vanquish the other, but either must die at the hand of the other.

As for the subject of our lost thread, I agree with most of what has been said, and I could really care less about my post count, but I am sad about one thing: if we all hang out here having our wonderful discussions, we probably won't get anybody new to joing our conversations, which is rather disappointing. Don't get me wrong! I'm not suggesting that you gals aren't good enough, but I am sure that we would all be happy to enlarge our family here, and I think it unlikely that anyone will stumble over this way and jump in. I do think that we were welcoming to newbies in the old thread, and I don't think it was the occasional off-topic remark that made some people not stick around; rather, I think that it may have been the breadth of depth of conversation there, which might not be the taste of all people. What a nightmare to be in one of those threads where they say the same thing over and over and over! But I guess not everyone feels the same way.

Finally, to add to our "to do list":
-How about my perennial question: why did the Potters not tell Dumbledore about the switch from Sirius to Peter?
-How much does Dumbledore know, and how much is he telling, and to whom?
-What will be the content of the Third Prophecy, if and when it comes?
-Is there more to Dumbledore's "in essence divided" comment regarding the snake attack on Mr. Weasley: do Harry and Voldemort share an essence?

edit:
I just saw that rotsiepots started a new prophecy thread in The Great Hall, with a very interesting caveat about not just posting there to increase your post count. Is that what they think we were doing!? Sorry to rant, now, but er, if we wanted to increase our post counts, wouldn't we just do things like go to the "PoA trailer" thread and post things like "And I loved the singing toads!" - which gets you the same count as the multi-paragraph analyses that people did on the old prophecy thread? I don't know why I find this so depressing, I guess it just makes me sad that we have to be ghettoed here, when we are sitting around talking about Harry Potter, and doing it with intelligence. Sigh.

purplehawk

November 18th, 2003, 2:53 pm

I'm here sighing with you on that one, Phoenix, and I haven't found the new thread yet. I don't believe any of us were posting there to increase post count! More like we all had a lot to say on the subject and we were doing a good job saying it!

I had a small fit about post count when they deleted the first prophecy thread and I lost about 50% of my post total, but that was an extreme situation. One of the mods or admins later adjusted my post count by a couple hundred - nowhere near what I lost, but who's counting, anyway? I was more upset about losing that thread I'd put so much into!

phoenixsong

November 18th, 2003, 3:19 pm

Yeah, my post count goes down rather than up these days, as they slowly but surely delete all of the threads that I posted a lot on. Oh, well, I guess it doesn't matter in the bigger scheme of things, I just wish there were a way that we could do what we do in a place where more people could find it, since it would be nice to have more people contributing to the conversation. I suppose we could recruit! If we notice someone who consistently posts interesting stuff, invite them to check out this thread.

Sabine

November 18th, 2003, 3:26 pm

I just saw that rotsiepots started a new prophecy thread in The Great Hall, with a very interesting caveat about not just posting there to increase your post count. Is that what they think we were doing!? Sorry to rant, now, but er, if we wanted to increase our post counts, wouldn't we just do things like go to the "PoA trailer" thread and post things like "And I loved the singing toads!" - which gets you the same count as the multi-paragraph analyses that people did on the old prophecy thread? I don't know why I find this so depressing, I guess it just makes me sad that we have to be ghettoed here, when we are sitting around talking about Harry Potter, and doing it with intelligence. Sigh.

Thats exactly the way I feel about.

And to tell the truth I am quite unsure how to generally react to that:

Please use this thread to discuss the prophecy's meaning or possible interpretation, but keep all discussion pertaining to the prophecy's impact on future books to this thread.

I've combed through the linked thread and I'm no wiser now...

Frankly - I come here to enjoy myself, to discuss Harry Potter, and even if it doesn't seem so, because my english isn't really bad, its nevertheless some effort for me to make my points of view clear to everybody. So my posts may be longwinded, but I try to discuss the topic that is discussed when I join the conversation.

So the enjoyment seems rather limited these days :sigh:

Sabine

purplehawk

November 18th, 2003, 3:27 pm

Well said, Sabine. Reminds me of that old blues song "The Thrill is Gone."

phoenixsong

November 18th, 2003, 3:42 pm

Frankly - I come here to enjoy myself, to discuss Harry Potter, and even if it doesn't seem so, because my english isn't really bad, its nevertheless some effort for me to make my points of view clear to everybody. So my posts may be longwinded, but I try to discuss the topic that is discussed when I join the conversation.

So the enjoyment seems rather limited these days :sigh:
Oh, Sabine! Your posts aren't longwinded! They are detailed and clear, or as clear as can be while still trying to deal with complicated issues the implications of which are somewhat unclear. And, even for those of us for whom English is our first language, I think that we generally make an effort with our posts! I guess what I find so disillusioning is that I thought there was room on the boards not just for "conversation" like "Yeah, I thought Tonks was so cool!" but also for more in-depth analysis. And why does it bother anybody that there is ONE thread where the posts are really long and involved making it difficult for the "casual" browser? I guess they were worried that we were monopolizing the "prophecy" subject, and making it one that people could only participate in if they were willing to make an effort.

Vigilance

November 18th, 2003, 3:46 pm

Exactly, gals:
I thought we were building community and having fun. Who knew we were really alienated new posters (such as myself?!)? I just posted a somewhat critical comment about this in Access to Hogsmead, but now I'm wondering if the mods will PM and tell me to truck to some other boards. I'm almost ready to abandon CoS Forums--I have plenty of friends willing to talk to me about the books face to face. Especially since we can't reach out to one another and be pals anymore. A sense of community drives me to these boards, not a need to have an answer to my multiple HP questions...

Purplehawk and I have disagreed on threads before and agreed on others, I respect her and if I see she's posted recently, I check out what she says. I don't think that occasionally speaking directly to her cuts anyone else out of our conversation. I guess I don't see what the mods have found objectionable. I think the two threads that were closed were the best on the boards, probably because we were all drawn together by heated and vested interests in those topics. It's a pity...and i can't yet quit bellyaching over it :no:

Sorry to break the momentum of the prophecy discussion...I think the idea that the "either must die" part of the prophecy may be partially enacted, leading me to conclude that Harry might really die at the end, with the "vanquishing."

sindatur

November 18th, 2003, 3:58 pm

Hi Ladies,

Thanks for the Pizza (wow a year's supply, I'm gonna gain a few pounds, I can tell) and the cookies.

{Off Topic for a few paragraphs}No, I don't think the tight knit clique thing discourages people from posting, sure didn't stop me. Matter of fact, I enjoy seeing a group of tight knit folks that I can jump in and post with. I think my first posts with this group started with commenting on PurpleHawk and Sabine's posts. I've traded IMs with several of you, and I'm a 3rd year with over 400 posts. Plus I've been invited to Hogsmeade. None of those were my ambition, I just wanted to post interesting, intelligent, and sometimes argumentative things with folks about Harry Potter and all the mystery surrounding it. Got my Hogsmeade invitation a couple weeks ago, haven't even popped my head in there yet, no real desire to, I get what I need on the "On topic" threads and IMs.

You definitely are right about people having a thirst to bump their post counts up. Yesterday, someone started at least 5 or 6 topics. One of them was about Lily maybe being married before James. I, and I think He'sDead... both replied how unlikely it was that Lily could've married Snape prior to Lily and James dating in their 7th year, and the person still kept insisting on arguing the point. I wrote a post about someone was trying to bump up their post count, be careful the Mods don't like that, but I didn't post it, didn't wanna give more reason for them to respond and bump it further.

I personally find nothing wrong with offtopic comments within an On topic post. If it's got both, it's on Topic. Sorry 'bout the long rant [/soapbox]

{Back on Topic} I quite agree, it's all together possible that "Kill" and "Vanquish" could be two seperate events. And in one of my final acts on the old thread, I expanded on (was it Sabine or Purplehawk's) theory of the possesion book idea, and floated the possibility that the lines in the Prophecy about the Dark Lord, could be referring to a Duality (Tom and possessing Dark Lord of Old). Use the "HE" for either Kill or Vanquish and Use the Duality of Dark Lord for the other (Kill or Vanquish).

I am completely convinced, if we don't turn the Prophecy upside down, inside out, etc, we'll never get to the real meaning of it. JKR is sly that way.

purplehawk

November 18th, 2003, 4:13 pm

Vigilance, I posted back to you in the Access to Hogsmeade thread. Thanks for the compliment and please know it's mutual. I have only the greatest respect for you and so many others here.

I'm going to leave on-topic discussions for later. Right now it just doesn't feel good.

phoenixsong

November 18th, 2003, 4:15 pm

Vigilance: good to see you! I marched right over to the "Access to Hogsmeade" thread and thirded your question (purplehawk had already seconded it!).

Back to the prophecy: seems to me that if the Dark Lord is in essence a disembodied spirit, then the question is, how to "vanquish" it? Either the vanquishing and the "dying at the hand of the other" are two different things (which is the assumption underlying the Voldemort is already dead theory), or the vanquishing comes about at the moment of "dying at the hand of the other". If this is the case, the vanquishing of the Dark Lord could come about either through the death of Voldemort or the death of Harry (or, of some other, third person, of whom the prophecy could speak. Sorry! You know me, have to keep that as a possibility in the back of my mind! Oh, yeah, and the Dark Lord could be somebody other than Voldemort!). So, how could either Voldemort or Harry die at the hand of the other, if they haven't already? Bear in mind, this "dying" must be in such a way that it accomplishes the "vanquishing" of the Dark Lord.

Sabine

November 18th, 2003, 5:26 pm

And, even for those of us for whom English is our first language, I think that we generally make an effort with our posts

There we go again ... I was by no means suggesting that you all are putting less effort in your posts - I just always thought that my posts are in general a little bit "lengthy" because I don't, most of the time, seem to be able to say what I mean in really short phrases, as most of you can do. (just look at this sentence if proof is needed :lol: :blush: :grumble: )

Oh and by the way, we have some thread for completely off-topic discussions here http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=666864#post666864 feel free to have some coffee there :)

I am completely convinced, if we don't turn the Prophecy upside down, inside out, etc, we'll never get to the real meaning of it. JKR is sly that way.

And I am likewise convinced that we will never get any "nearer" to some "solution" to this prophecy if we don't look over the brim of it, which means one has to look at other topics too (f.i. the possibility of something possessing Voldemort, or bother with mindtwisting timetravelbusiness), or changing the whole ankle we look at it as if to not get always stuck on the same point. Like f.e. as follows:

Maybe we could sort of try some detour: if we try to figure out what that "power" is. Not by trying to discuss every power that we know. (We've tried that wasy :)) But we could somehow concentrate on the Department of Mysteries. The mystries that they study are clearly mysteries that not only are a mystery to the wizarding world but generally to humankind:

Mystery of time
Mystery of space
Mystery of death

WHAT are the mysteries humankind is trying to solve?

Sabine

whizbang121

November 18th, 2003, 5:36 pm

Purplehawk and I have disagreed on threads before and agreed on others, I respect her and if I see she's posted recently, I check out what she says. I don't think that occasionally speaking directly to her cuts anyone else out of our conversation. I guess I don't see what the mods have found objectionable. I think the two threads that were closed were the best on the boards, probably because we were all drawn together by heated and vested interests in those topics. It's a pity...and i can't yet quit bellyaching over it :no:

Sorry to break the momentum of the prophecy discussion...I think the idea that the "either must die" part of the prophecy may be partially enacted, leading me to conclude that Harry might really die at the end, with the "vanquishing."

I think one of our best gifts is the ability to disagree heartily and still be friends. And it's important to have lots of points of view for any theory or discussion to evolve. If everyone agrees, then ......... ???????? Or even worse, disagrees and become nasty ......
You put your finger on it, Vigilance. We're a community. That's what matters most to me, anyway.

And I'm okay with Harry dying ... if his special power is resurrection. Otherwise, I'll be crushed.:upset:

Can you believe that the mods, feeling that we couldn't stay on topic in one prophesy thread, divided it into two seperate threads with slightly different topics?
I admit, I'm becoming dissillusioned.

I'm finishing catching up and I just noticed something. We're posting like we have to stay on topic. Please tell me that's optional here.
Wow, lots of activists, here. :agree: I have to finish catching up.

Jessica

November 18th, 2003, 5:36 pm

That's a good idea, Sabine :)

I think the DoM is going to be very important.

Do we think there is something more to the death of Bode than we were told? Any idea what happened to Croake? (who was with Bode at the Quidditch World Cup in GoF)

Sabine

November 18th, 2003, 5:44 pm

I've forgotten the brains ... what mystery would this be?

The mystery of mind?

Jessica it always cracks me up reading the name "Bode" in connection with Harry Potter ... it is my maidden name :lol: :lol: :lol: I always feel so "adressed" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sabine

edit:
Don't worry whizbang, if we decide to talk about the Mysteries we would be off topic again and I would have been the one which dragged the thread off-topic :lol: Am I digging up my own grave????? :sigh:

Sabine

Jessica

November 18th, 2003, 5:46 pm

Yeah, I think the brains are the mystery of the mind. There's a thread around here somewhere where they've done a lot of this. We should go steal their research (giving proper credit here, of course :) ).

whizbang121

November 18th, 2003, 5:55 pm

Vigilance: good to see you! I marched right over to the "Access to Hogsmeade" thread and thirded your question (purplehawk had already seconded it!). Guess I'd better check that out.

Back to the prophecy: seems to me that if the Dark Lord is in essence a disembodied spirit, then the question is, how to "vanquish" it? Either the vanquishing and the "dying at the hand of the other" are two different things (which is the assumption underlying the Voldemort is already dead theory), or the vanquishing comes about at the moment of "dying at the hand of the other". If this is the case, the vanquishing of the Dark Lord could come about either through the death of Voldemort or the death of Harry (or, of some other, third person, of whom the prophecy could speak. Sorry! You know me, have to keep that as a possibility in the back of my mind! Oh, yeah, and the Dark Lord could be somebody other than Voldemort!). So, how could either Voldemort or Harry die at the hand of the other, if they haven't already? Bear in mind, this "dying" must be in such a way that it accomplishes the "vanquishing" of the Dark Lord.

Hmmm...
What if in Godric's Hollow, Tom Riddle's body died, but Voldemort became "worse than dead" His spirit could be the dark lord. In that case, is "vanquishing the Dark Lord" destroying Voldemort's spirit or shade or less than dead beingness? I have a theory based on the work done some rune masters, that Voldemort's life force is actually in Harry's scar. (I opened a powers and a future thread down here in the Pitch, because I'm kind of disillusioned with the post count forums, too.)
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20650

If Voldemort's consciousness is seperated from his life force, then maybe killing Voldemort is a goose chase. Maybe we need to focus on his life force, where ever it is. I think worse than dead is a clue.

Phone!

phoenixsong

November 18th, 2003, 6:01 pm

As for Bode, the only unexamined thing I can think of (the hippogriff poster, St. Mungo's, have been analyzed already), would be that he thought he was a teapot, and we've seen other people stuck whistling like teapots, but other than that, I suppose we could wonder what, exactly, he did at the DoM.

As far as the DoM is concerned, there is also fate, which I think is represented by the room with the planets.

Of course, the big mystery, as big as death, time, or thought, would be love, since it defies any of the other mysteries (it can go beyond death, it can make time stand still, it can be utterly unreasonable). Though whether it goes beyond fate/destiny is beyond me, since the workings of fate are beyond my ken. Romeo and Juliet are "star-crossed" which in some ways suggests that their love is against the workings of the stars, but can also mean that it is fated in its "crossedness."

sindatur

November 18th, 2003, 6:31 pm

How funny Sabine, My mother was born and raised in England, and her maiden name is Evans, so I know exactly what you mean.

Last night I was reading "St Mungos..." chapter on my second time through the book (I read the first time through in a week, and the 2nd time through is taking about 4 months so far, LOL) and I noticed on page 484 in the American Version they refer to a Warlock twice on that page. I didn't recall this until re-reading it, and I don't recall ever seeing Warlock anywhere else, although I've always wondered why. Also on that same page (and the preceeding and proceeding ones) there are references to Wizards. Does JKR have a different definition for a Warlock, than a Wizard, or did she just decide to mix it up a bit on that page.

So let's try taking the Prophecy and play around with moving definitions for the Duality, and singular Dark Lord, with the killing and vanquishing, and maybe even throwing Neville into and see how it plays out. Maybe even assign different definitions for " by the hand" comments as well

Jessica

November 18th, 2003, 6:48 pm

sindatur

November 18th, 2003, 6:56 pm

So let's try taking the Prophecy and play around with moving definitions for the Duality, and singular Dark Lord, with the killing and vanquishing, and maybe even throwing Neville into and see how it plays out. Maybe even assign different definitions for " by the hand" comments as well

Something like this: Voldemort = Tom Riddle + the Possessing Dark Lord of Old

The one (Harry) with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord (Voldemort) approaches ... born to those (Lily and James) who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies (End of July) ... and the Dark Lord (Voldemort) will mark him (Harry) as his (Voldemort) equal, but he (Neville) will have power the Dark Lord (Voldemort) knows not ... and either (Tom or the possessor) must die (at Godric’s Hollow) at the hand of the other (Harry) for neither (Tom nor The Possessor) can live while the other (Tom or the Possessor) survives ... the one (Harry) with the power to vanquish (Ultimately getting rid of the Dark Lord of Old possessing Tom, and Grindelwald and Salazaar before him) the Dark Lord (The Possessor) will be born as the seventh month dies.

Just an example of what I meant

whizbang121

November 18th, 2003, 7:09 pm

Okay, I had a theory on the "by the hand" bit but whiz disparaged it :p

This is my idea.

Harry "defeated" Voldemort in the first place by a rebound of the love of his mother. This love kept him safe when Quirrel tried to touch him, forcing Voldemort to leave Quirrel's body and ultimately causing Quirrel's death. Obviously love is a very powerful force.

Again, we see the power of love, when Voldemort possesses Harry. Harry's love for Sirius/wish to join him in death is what forces Voldemort to leave Harry's body at the end of OotP.

Now suppose as Harry grows stronger in his own powers, something happens (and I don't mean falling in love with Ginny or Hermione, get your minds out of the gutter) that allows the power of love inside him to grow. Be this a sacrifice on the part of one of his friends, a show of unity, or whatever.

Thus, Voldemort will literally die by Harry's hand. The power of love inside Harry will be so strong that Voldmort will once again be unable to touch him.

Shut up, whiz!
:whistle:

So friendship? Comraderie? The power of a committed group working toward a common goal? What did Dumbledore say at the end of GoF, only as strong as they are united?

United ......

Okay, Lily's love for Harry
Harry's love for Sirius and vice versa
Dumbledore's love for Harry
Molly's suffocating affection for everyone
Dobby's love for Harry

Why does everybody, except Snape and the Dursleys, love Harry? He's a nice boy and I love him, too, but .......
Maybe it's easier to think of who doesn't love Harry.
Those who are afraid of him? Is Snape afraid of Harry? :huh:

I was listening to the CoS on cassette in the car and when they go down the tunnel, Harry says they must be miles under the school. Ron adds, under the lake.

Under the lake?

sindatur

November 18th, 2003, 7:22 pm

It may sound kinda cheezy, but, what if all those who love Harry (Hermione, Ron, Molly, DD, Dobby) are all in the same place at one time, and something triggers Harry's power, and he's able to feed off and channel that love, and that's what triggers his understanding of the "Power"

I'm still halfway connecting in my mind, Luna's mother died in the DoM (I believe) experimenting with a new magick/spell. Lily sacrificed herself with Love and gave Harry this power (some of us believe). There's a room full of "Harry Power" in the DoM. Could Luna's mom have been experimenting with the same Magick that Lily used, and died in that room, filling it with that power? Brings up a very tight connection between Harry and Luna.

I posted my theory on the Ritual Lily used in an older thread (I think it was Godric's Hollow) connecting the Sowelu Rune on HArry's forehead, and all. I've copied that onto a word Doc, and can report it here, to connect together with the Luna/Harry statement above if anyone's interested in expanding on that track. PurpleHawk I believe is familiar with that specific post.

Vigilance

November 18th, 2003, 7:23 pm

Last night I was reading "St Mungos..." chapter on my second time through the book (I read the first time through in a week, and the 2nd time through is taking about 4 months so far, LOL) and I noticed on page 484 in the American Version they refer to a Warlock twice on that page. I didn't recall this until re-reading it, and I don't recall ever seeing Warlock anywhere else, although I've always wondered why. Also on that same page (and the preceeding and proceeding ones) there are references to Wizards. Does JKR have a different definition for a Warlock, than a Wizard, or did she just decide to mix it up a bit on that page.

Variety in word choice is always positive in composition, but she probably also means something different with the use of that word. She seems to use "wizard" as a common term like "human" and "person" though, of course, we often hear a gendered reference, think "man." (The problems of a sexist language :grumble:). However, I think a witch is usually female and a warlock is always gendered male. ...But we've also seen JK trying to dismantle these words from gender, too.

Jessica

November 18th, 2003, 7:30 pm

[QUOTE=whizbang121]:whistle:

Why does everybody, except Snape and the Dursleys, love Harry? He's a nice boy and I love him, too, but .......
Maybe it's easier to think of who doesn't love Harry.
Those who are afraid of him? Is Snape afraid of Harry? :huh:
[\QUOTE]

Not sure. Interesting question. I think partly people love him because they feel sorry for him, empathy rather than sympathy. Look at how much pain that poor kid has. And yet he doesn't let it get him down.

But yes, Harry is more beloved than most kids at Hogwarts. And most kids in general. Very een-ter-est-ing. . .

phoenixsong

November 18th, 2003, 7:37 pm

I'm still halfway connecting in my mind, Luna's mother died in the DoM (I believe) experimenting with a new magick/spell. Lily sacrificed herself with Love and gave Harry this power (some of us believe). There's a room full of "Harry Power" in the DoM. Could Luna's mom have been experimenting with the same Magick that Lily used, and died in that room, filling it with that power? Brings up a very tight connection between Harry and Luna.And let's not forget Luna's surname: Lovegood. Another connection to the power that we think is THE power. You know, the one the Dark Lord knows not. I can't wait to find out what kind of spells Luna's mom was "experimenting" with. I think Luna must have been physically present, in order for her to later see the thestrals. Was she somehow involved with the spell? Was she affected by it (other than in the obvious emotional effects of witnessing her mother's death. I mean magically affected)? She's obviously smart (the Ravenclaw thing), but she's also weird. Those crazy eyes of hers. I'm still betting that she may be a seer, with those bulging eyes, so like Trelawney's and Ollivander's. She will be involved, for sure. In fact, she is on my list of those the prophecy could be about, if it's not about Harry! In part because she is very similar to the main character of a book JKR has listed as one of her favourites, Elizabeth Goudge's The Little White Horse (forgive me, those of you who have heard me describe this before). But that character (who has grey eyes, is otherwise rather plain, is a naturally gifted horsewoman (remember Luna's skill on the thestrals?)) has the task of bringing together two bitterly feuding bloodlines, the solar and lunar Merriweathers (oh yeah, did I mention that this protagonist also has an alliterative name: Maria Merriweather). Anyway, Luna will play into all this in a BIG way, I am sure. Maybe we can figure out some possibilities, without getting too shippy (ok, jessica?).

sindatur

November 18th, 2003, 7:57 pm

PhoenixSong, thanks for pointing out Luna could've inherited something from the spell, I neglected to mention that. And I feel like a moron, here I put all the rest together, and didn't even think about here name being Lovegood, thanks for that too. I was unaware of the similarity to the Elizabeth Goudge character (not familiar with that work). I most wholeheartedly agree she would've been in the room at the time, because she did state she sees the Thestrals because her mother died. Wonder if she thinks her mom is one her things that will eventually come back, as people have suggested she was referencing to Harry subtley in regard to Sirius.

I love you guys, the way you all know each other so well, you have a good feeling what a reaction will be by a certain other, so you put those little colorful warnings at the end of the posts, that's what a community is all about

Jessica

November 18th, 2003, 8:59 pm

It may sound kinda cheezy, but, what if all those who love Harry (Hermione, Ron, Molly, DD, Dobby) are all in the same place at one time, and something triggers Harry's power, and he's able to feed off and channel that love, and that's what triggers his understanding of the "Power"

I'm still halfway connecting in my mind, Luna's mother died in the DoM (I believe) experimenting with a new magick/spell. Lily sacrificed herself with Love and gave Harry this power (some of us believe). There's a room full of "Harry Power" in the DoM. Could Luna's mom have been experimenting with the same Magick that Lily used, and died in that room, filling it with that power? Brings up a very tight connection between Harry and Luna.
.

I agree completely with the all in one palce channel of love thing. All this stuff sounds cheesy but JKR is able to transcend the chessiness to create greatness.

Also I really like your Harry/Luna mother parallel. I think you're on to something there. :)

sindatur

November 18th, 2003, 9:12 pm

Jessica said "Also I really like your Harry/Luna mother parallel. I think you're on to something there."

OK Jessica, you opened the door, here's the Lily Ritual thing I threatened you all with earlier, that kinda goes with that.

I call Lily's sacrificial Magick the "Ritual of Sowelu"

Voldemort gets into the house, James duels with him and tells Lily to grab Harry and get out. Lily takes another approach. Lily does her thing with drawing Runes (here, there, whereever), does her incantations, wand waves, etc (probably a combination of all these things). People have wondered where Lily's wand went to, why didn't she put up a struggle? Part of her ritual would be to leave the wand in the crib with Harry, as a conduit for the completion of the ritual. Voldemort has now finished killing James, and comes in to the room Lily is in, and tells her to step aside, she doesn't need to die. But in reality, she knew there was no escape for her or James this night, and she has been preparing for this since James told her to leave. She refuses, and allows Voldemort to do what she knew he would do, kill her because she was standing in the way of Voldemort getting to Harry. This sacrifice finished the setup for the Protection spell {Problem with this theory, setup wouldn't have been finished if Voldemort had not offered her, her life}. Once Voldemort had finished with Lily, he turned on Harry and performed AK {Problem with this part of the theory, the power of the AK was needed to activate the protection. If Voldemort had merely strangled Harry, there is no power to ignite the protection}. Having performed the AK on HArry, the Protection kicks in, AK is repelled, leaving Harry scarred with the Sowelu Rune where the power erupted from Harry's body. The sheer destructive force of this interaction between the two forces, exploded the immortal Voldemort's body, and wreaked havoc on the house, collapsing it. If Harry is Sowelu Rune, Voldemort is the dark opposite of it Eiwahz (or Ewahz?). This also addresses all the theories of Harry never actually Offensively has attacked Voldemort, but rather has turned his dark power against him by making it light. Also explains the Priori Incantatem.
(I also don't have an explanation for why she knew she would be offered the chance to be a sacrifice, by getting an offer from Voldemort to be allowed to live)

Sabine

November 18th, 2003, 9:16 pm

Is this some rollercoaster I am on???

Ok-let my try to catch up:

The one (Harry) with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord (Voldemort) approaches ... born to those (Lily and James) who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies (End of July) ... and the Dark Lord (Voldemort) will mark him (Harry) as his (Voldemort) equal, but he (Neville) will have power the Dark Lord (Voldemort) knows not ... and either (Tom or the possessor) must die (at Godric’s Hollow) at the hand of the other (Harry) for neither (Tom nor The Possessor) can live while the other (Tom or the Possessor) survives ... the one (Harry) with the power to vanquish (Ultimately getting rid of the Dark Lord of Old possessing Tom, and Grindelwald and Salazaar before him) the Dark Lord (The Possessor) will be born as the seventh month dies.

It is - I think I said in on that other thread - interesting to try it that way. Especially this very intriguing line:

for neither (Tom nor The Possessor) can live while the other (Tom or the Possessor) survives ... :clap: :clap: THAT would be a relief.

Why does everybody, except Snape and the Dursleys, love Harry? He's a nice boy and I love him, too, but .......
Maybe it's easier to think of who doesn't love Harry.
Those who are afraid of him? Is Snape afraid of Harry? :huh:

hmmm I wouldn't go so far as to say they all love Harry .... some surely do, some like him, I think most of the fellow-students respect him.

The Dursleys may fear him because of what he is, yes. But Snape doesn't "fear" him. Why should he? Snape is more likely to have realized that Harry isn't the way he thought he would be. What hopefully will hold true the other way round. They both could benefit if their relationship would change a little bit.

I think the only one important who comes to fear Harry is indeed Voldemort. I think it must be sort of completely distressing for him to see, that, whatever effort he takes, he is just not able to get rid of a teenager! Veeeeeery annoying.

I posted my theory on the Ritual Lily used in an older thread (I think it was Godric's Hollow) connecting the Sowelu Rune on HArry's forehead, and all. I've copied that onto a word Doc, and can report it here, to connect together with the Luna/Harry statement above if anyone's interested in expanding on that track. PurpleHawk I believe is familiar with that specific post.

So - you call that cheezy?? Thats what we call sweet - its so sweet it sticks :)

Oh yes I remeber that theory - I thought it was a really good one. Maybe you should go on and copy it in here.

As long as we can leave time travell out of play :eyebrows: :rolleyes: :scared: I think I would need some seat-belt for the next trip in time :blush:

Variety in words: I considered checking the german translation for it but thought better of it... that german translator isn't any wiser than we are... but could the difference in warlock and wizard be in reference to some duty? Isn't Dumbledore some chief warlock himself???

And Luna will be back - she wasn't there just to fill the pages :agree: :agree:

I too am not familiar with Elisabeth Goudge os - sorry can't comment on that :)

LOVE .... so we're back to it? Fine - we always come back to it - one could bet on :agree:

Love was my first guess - even before I had finished the book. My daughter finished it yesterday. She had to mourn for Sirius so she wasn't accessible, but when she came to me today and wanted to talk about the book her first guess was love too. Almost anyones first guess is love. And then every one is retreating from it again because everyone thinks its too clichee and its was everyones first guess, meaning that when something is so obvious it can't be the right thing - not with JKR. I am not so sure about that. I'm willing to call it love or humanity because in some greater sense they are both,maybe not the same but they can't go without the other.

Sabine

sindatur

November 18th, 2003, 10:13 pm

So - you call that cheezy?? Thats what we call sweet - its so sweet it sticks :)

I've got no problem with the Cheese, I've seen some groan over the sickly sweet, so it was just a warning, LOL

Oh yes I remeber that theory - I thought it was a really good one. Maybe you should go on and copy it in here.

Posted above you while you were making this post.

Variety in words: I considered checking the german translation for it but thought better of it... that german translator isn't any wiser than we are... but could the difference in warlock and wizard be in reference to some duty? Isn't Dumbledore some chief warlock himself???

Of course, Warlock is used as a title, I'll re-read the page and see if that makes sense, thanks, hadn't considered that.

purplehawk

November 18th, 2003, 10:18 pm

You're right, Sindatur, I do remember that post. It was on the Godric's Hollow thread and we were discussing it in reference to the now-defunct All-Encompassed Power thread... another of those deep-thinking threads that dissolved in the pointless chatter of posters with little or nothing to contribute. Yeah, yeah... I'm still ticked off.

So we're back to LOVE as the ultimate power. Not love as in Frankie-and-Johnny-Were-Sweethearts, but love at its purest... which is - ??? Help! Please!

Sabine

November 18th, 2003, 10:23 pm

I'm still ticked off.

I could have guessed that ;). *hugs purplehawk* lets look on the bright side - at least no one can say we are doing this for postcount-boost in the Quidditch-pitch :)

Not love as in Frankie-and-Johnny-Were-Sweethearts, but love at its purest... which is - ??? Help! Please!

Love - why has there to be some other name for it?

Sabine

Jessica

November 18th, 2003, 10:27 pm

Wuv, true wuv!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

whizbang121

November 18th, 2003, 10:36 pm

My only problem with the Lily ritual is that in CoS Tom Riddle says that Lily's sacrifice was a powerful countercharm. In GoF, he described it as "unwitting." And even Dumbledore only said that Voldemort couldn't kill Harry because his mother died to save him. No particular charm by Lily is hinted at anywhere.

But the power in Harry, whatever it is, we have noticed is triggered by strong emotions. We are also told that certain advanced charms and spells also require controlled emotions to work properly. I wonder if hearing his mother beg for his life triggered an emotional response in Harry that caused the AK to etc, etc, etc.

But even beyond that, if a willing sacrifice like Lily's is a powerful counter charm as Tom Riddle says, then perhaps the lingering protection was an effect similar to the bond between two wizards when one owes the other a life debt. There's a bond of some kind but of love rather than debt.

The runes are fascinating. I suspect a lot of mysteries will be solved with them. Maybe Runes is what Lily worked with. It makes a lot of sense as they seem to be very inportant.

Sabine

November 18th, 2003, 10:38 pm

Wuv, true wuv!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

reading this with "german eyes" its like your dogs took over the computer and barking in on us

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Sabine

sindatur

November 18th, 2003, 10:38 pm

Just so no one thinks I'm capitalizing the thread, LOL, I just have more time today than usual. Some days you may not hear a peep out of me :lol:

Love at it's purest, hmm... To me that means respect, devotion, empathy, concern for well being, desire for happiness and fulfillment of the one you love so purely. I think that about covers it. Anyone else?

Yes Whizbang, Runes become more and more prominent in each book. I also noticed that on the American covers (I'm sure some of you have seen me post this as well) Harry's scar is a lightning bolt (double juts) in the first 4 books that came out before the movies, and the scar was always described as being like a lightning bolt. In the two movies out, and on the 5th cover, Harry's scar only has the one just (like the Rune Sowelu, or the SS on a Nazi's uniform). So this could be a clue that the scar really does represent the Rune. I wonder if Voldemort has the opposing dark version of Sowelu Rune (Eiwahz, Ehwaz, whatever it is) on his body somewhere, or perhaps some part of the house at Godric's Hollow (or what was left of it) was imprinted with the Rune when the AK blasted Voldemort out of his body.

whizbang121

November 18th, 2003, 10:43 pm

I'm the oddball, because I don't Think it's love. I'll go bake some cupcakes.

Anyway, this is the part about the sowelo in the powers and a future thread.
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20650

After reading the work of many posters on a variety of threads and subjects, I'm going to guess that on the night Voldemort tried to kill baby Harry, the curse didn't just backfire in his face. It ripped him from his body, (so that's dead) and left him something even he didn't recognize, less than the weakest ghost. But he was right, he wasn't dead. He was however seperated from his life force.

Where was his life energy? The suggestion is that Harry's lightning bolt scar is the rune, S o w e l u which symbolizes the energy of the sun, the ultimate life force. Is Harry's scar the repository of Voldemort's life force? Is this what is meant by the phrase "... the dark lord will mark him as his equal ..." This would also explain what Dumbledore meant when he said that Voldemort "transferred" his powers to Harry.

For example: Harry can speak parseltongue because Lord Voldemort can speak parseltongue.

purplehawk

November 18th, 2003, 10:44 pm

Sabine

November 18th, 2003, 11:07 pm

oups - sorry - I didn't get that drift :)

Originally Posted by sindatur
Love at it's purest, hmm... To me that means respect, devotion, empathy, concern for well being, desire for happiness and fulfillment of the one you love so purely. I think that about covers it. Anyone else?

I think it should go deeper than that: what I am missing in the above qoute is that it too does respect all lifeforms - not considers one better than others, it should contain: openminded too and unbiased, and it should be adressed to everyone and not just one person.

Dumbledores attitude towards anything is the best comparison I could think of.

As for the sowelu:

Once Voldemort had finished with Lily, he turned on Harry and performed AK {Problem with this part of the theory, the power of the AK was needed to activate the protection. If Voldemort had merely strangled Harry, there is no power to ignite the protection}.

This doesn't seem to be a big problem. What would the odds be that a great dark wizard would use something other than his wand to kill Harry?

Lily does her thing with drawing Runes (here, there, whereever), does her incantations, wand waves, etc (probably a combination of all these things). People have wondered where Lily's wand went to, why didn't she put up a struggle? Part of her ritual would be to leave the wand in the crib with Harry, as a conduit for the completion of the ritual.

Maybe she didn't put up a strugble because part of that "magick" would make it neccessary that she faced Voldemort defenceless?

I'm not quite sure about that one:

This sacrifice finished the setup for the Protection spell {Problem with this theory, setup wouldn't have been finished if Voldemort had not offered her, her life}.

Why wouldn't the setup have been finished if Voldy had not offered her her life?

I mean facing that evil mean dark lord defenceless and not willing to give way seems to be enough for me.

Sabine

whizbang121

November 18th, 2003, 11:30 pm

I must have missed something. I thought she was screaming. She must have put up some kind of struggle. And we don't know where James' wand is either do we?

Vigilance

November 18th, 2003, 11:59 pm

There has to be some kind of difference between Lily's sacrifice and James's sacrifice. It was a given that James was going to die, but maybe Lily was offered her life and refused it? Or, maybe she defended Harry bodily, rather than with a wand to give further weight to her countercharm (as DD refers to it)? If she excels at charms, she might have known it would be the only way to save Harry...

Jessica

November 19th, 2003, 12:03 am

I think so too, Vigilance. I just can't imagine that a mother wouldn't come up with an intentional thought out back up plan in the event that Voldemort found them.

BTW, on the Voldemort said that it was unintentional thing (sorry I'm too lzay to look up who posted it :) ). That' what he thinks happened. Doesn't mean he's right. ;)

phoenixsong

November 19th, 2003, 12:21 am

openminded too and unbiased, and it should be adressed to everyone and not just one person. I have to disagree with you here, Sabine. Other than the theological variety found in Christianity, I think that the really powerful, intense kind of love is very much about a specific person. Lily loved Harry her son. I love my daughter more than anyone in the world, even though I think that I am a compassionate person and one who is fair and openminded. But the feelings I have toward those others are very different than those I have for my own daughter, for whom I would do anything in the world. And very different than passionate, romantic love as well, which is also about one, particular person. It's why Sirius' death has a very different effect than Cedric's.

And sindatur: I meant to tell you how much I LOVED what you did with the prophecy up top of the page, inserting the different variables at different places in the prophecy. It was really brilliant!

edit: I forgot: There ahas to be some kind of difference between Lily's sacrifice and James's sacrifice. Hmm, this gets thorny, especially as I don't want to step on any dads' toes, but is it possible that there is a difference between mom's love and dad's love? I can't help but to wonder if this might not be the underlying difference. Or maybe it is as we thought before, and the difference is that James was also fighting to fight against Voldemort, to fight against "the most evil wizard of all times" while Lily thought only of saving her son. Or maybe because James' sacrifice was for both Lily and Harry, while Lily's was for Harry alone.

Sabine

November 19th, 2003, 12:36 am

I have to disagree with you here, Sabine. Other than the theological variety found in Christianity, I think that the really powerful, intense kind of love is very much about a specific person. Lily loved Harry her son. I love my daughter more than anyone in the world, even though I think that I am a compassionate person and one who is fair and openminded. But the feelings I have toward those others are very different than those I have for my own daughter, for whom I would do anything in the world. And very different than passionate, romantic love as well, which is also about one, particular person. It's why Sirius' death has a very different effect than Cedric's.

And sindatur: I meant to tell you how much I LOVED what you did with the prophecy up top of the page, inserting the different variables at different places in the prophecy. It was really brilliant!

edit: I forgot: Hmm, this gets thorny, especially as I don't want to step on any dads' toes, but is it possible that there is a difference between mom's love and dad's love? I can't help but to wonder if this might not be the underlying difference. Or maybe it is as we thought before, and the difference is that James was also fighting to fight against Voldemort, to fight against "the most evil wizard of all times" while Lily thought only of saving her son. Or maybe because James' sacrifice was for both Lily and Harry, while Lily's was for Harry alone.

Christianity wasn't the least bit on my mind when I posted that. And if this is the "general definition" of love - than we do indeed have to disagree, because than the Power we are looking for could - at least in my eyes not be love.

Thats why I said earlier that its equal to me if we called this power love or humanity because one can't go without the other. Thats why I threw in Dumbledore for comparison.

Dumbledore is indeed the one that in my eyes has the most of that power that I suspect to be the power. Maybe humanity is then the word I should settle for. Or maybe I could call this power "Dumbledore" for lack of a better word :)

Sabine

purplehawk

November 19th, 2003, 1:13 am

I am so hopelessly behind in this thread! Maybe tomorrow, when my head is clearer and my frustration and anger spent, I'll be able to catch-up and contribute something meaningful.

Sindatur, I love what you've done with the prophecy in filling in possible names and/or whatevers. That's one I am surely coming back to!

phoenixsong

November 19th, 2003, 1:33 am

Christianity wasn't the least bit on my mind when I posted that. And if this is the "general definition" of love - than we do indeed have to disagree, because than the Power we are looking for could - at least in my eyes not be love.
I wasn't saying you were saying it was Christian love, I was just saying that I think that most people experience love in relation to what is utterly specific and special about a particular person, which is different than the theological version in which god loves everybody indifferently. And I think that what is wonderful about Dumbledore is not that he loves everybody the same but that he loves everybody for what is quirky and weird about them. I think that we also love people for what they bring out in us, for the way that they make us feel (which is part of the parental love thing: our children make us feel responsible and generous - they bring out the best in us). That might be part of the answer to the question above, about why everybody loves Harry (if they do: I don't!): but there may be something about him that makes them feel special, or hopeful, or powerful, you name it, but that elicits some sort of response in them.

oh, and purplehawk: I saw what you wrote in the feedback forum. Be careful, lady! We want you around. You wouldn't want to make us all pack up and leave to follow you somewhere else, would you?!?! I'm glad you said those things, but don't push it too far. I've also been pm-ing mods, and laying out the case for how wonderful we are (!). So far I've heard back from one. I'll let you know if I learn anything more than we've already been told on the boards.

purplehawk

November 19th, 2003, 2:04 am

I wasn't saying you were saying it was Christian love, I was just saying that I think that most people experience love in relation to what is utterly specific and special about a particular person, which is different than the theological version in which god loves everybody indifferently. And I think that what is wonderful about Dumbledore is not that he loves everybody the same but that he loves everybody for what is quirky and weird about them. I think that we also love people for what they bring out in us, for the way that they make us feel (which is part of the parental love thing: our children make us feel responsible and generous - they bring out the best in us). That might be part of the answer to the question above, about why everybody loves Harry (if they do: I don't!): but there may be something about him that makes them feel special, or hopeful, or powerful, you name it, but that elicits some sort of response in them.

How could anyone not love Harry? Forget about his past and even the terrible events to come in his future - and you would still love this kid. Maybe a way out of our dilemma is to list traits and/or characteristics that are intrinsic to Harry! What is it about him that moves us so? His courage is one big thing, as are his positivity, commitment, intelligence, and determination. We admire all these qualities and still pity what he's had to overcome... what he still must do relative to Voldemort.

oh, and purplehawk: I saw what you wrote in the feedback forum. Be careful, lady! We want you around. You wouldn't want to make us all pack up and leave to follow you somewhere else, would you?!?! I'm glad you said those things, but don't push it too far. I've also been pm-ing mods, and laying out the case for how wonderful we are (!). So far I've heard back from one. I'll let you know if I learn anything more than we've already been told on the boards.

I'm engaged in PMs with an admin, too, and I'll keep my comments in that venue. I expected the ban to come any moment... every time I clicked submit I expected to find a "you have been banned from this forum" message to pop up. I was just furious and it all had to come out. I feel better now, having said what surely needed to be said. I even had a makeup chat with the young man who called me a "dude."

Jessica, those two warnings you mentioned must have been posted during one of my quiet times - probably when I had the cold and laryngitis. I do remember reading something questioning a post from Ianifiel, but I never went back to find it and read it.

whizbang121

November 19th, 2003, 4:52 am

Oh, come on folks. It's all water under the bridge now. Let's just let it go and move on.

This is cool place. I've been thinking that layers is getting complicated. So I'm looking for opinions on a general and fuzzy edged thread on the prophesy. We can call something cutsie, like

"Trelawney's teahouse and foretune telling. Prophesies are our specialty."

Or "the Trelawney Channel" :lol:

Since this is the quidditch pitch and everyone knows that I think Harry's power is not love but, you know POWER, blinding, earthshaking, lightning bolt power, I'm going to take a chance and paste in my favorite description of love.

This is I Corinthians 13:
1: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2: And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3: If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4: Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;
5: it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
6: it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
7: Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8: Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9: For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
10: but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
11: When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
12: For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
13: So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

The references to prophesy, mirrors and tongues are interesting, too.

Maybe I'll check Elisabeth Barrett Browning, too.
Sonnets from the Portuguese. Didn't JKR teach in Portugal during her first marriage?

Vigilance

November 19th, 2003, 5:14 am

North Tower Kitchen Clack?

whizbang121

November 19th, 2003, 5:20 am

North Tower Kitchen Clack?

:lol: :scared:

I don't get it. :upset:

Vigilance

November 19th, 2003, 5:26 am

"clack" = chat. babble, chatter, talk.

North Tower--Trelawney's atmospheric classroom. :D

I actually like Trelawney's Teahouse alot. That would make a nice one.

whizbang121

November 19th, 2003, 5:32 am

Maybe it was the kitchen that threw me. Sorry. It's late and I'm hopeless under the best of circumstances.

Actually, how about Trelawney's atmospheric tower? That has a strange mist around it.

phoenixsong

November 19th, 2003, 10:43 am

ultimate sacrifice

November 19th, 2003, 2:51 pm

I like Trelawney's Teahouse, and I like the suggestion about including the NOrth Tower, because isn't that where her classroom is?

I don't care where a prophecy thread is located, just that we all meet in one somewhere to "cuss and discuss" again.

What happened to that "Putting the Pieces Together" Thread. That was a good one, I browsed and participated a few times, then stopped getting notices that there was a new posting???

sindatur

November 19th, 2003, 3:23 pm

Hi All,

Thanks for your comments on the way I twisted who the Prophecy was talking about in the various sentences, by all means have a go at it yourselves.

On the Love in it's purest form, I have to say for me, that is generally directed at specific person/people (family, lover, etc). While the love for the human race in general, is at a slightly lower level, but still contains alot of the same components, just not as strong.

Trelawney's Teahouse sounds great, although the North Tower is no longer where her class will be held, because Firenze is now sharing the duties of teaching Divination, and he can't climb the ladder with his four legs, so, Dumbledore set them up a classroom in the main castle.

Any room for two really intelligent Cat Children in Indy's campaign for President and Prime Minister?

whizbang121

November 19th, 2003, 5:22 pm

whizbang: are you saying that you want to make this thread the "Trelawney Teahouse" and have it more focused on the prophecy, or do you want to start another thread for the purpose? I'm a bit confused.

I, too, was told that we were given two warnings by lanifiel and fuschia. I don't really remember, either. And it's not like we can go back and see for ourselves! I know, I know, whizbang, water under the bridge.
This thread is fun and I love how we can move from idea to idea, but I wanted to see how everyone feels about a thread to focus just slightly more on the prophesy, including "the power" which doesn't seem a seperate topic to me. I t can go one here too. The beauty of layers is that it's got lots of rambling room.
Just looking for suggestions on the matter.

Good point about Firenze. He's been on my mind lately, too.

That would be a delightful classroom to have. Hmmmmmm........... Or a location for a birthday party.

purplehawk

November 19th, 2003, 5:33 pm

I like the idea, Whiz. Post counts don't matter to me. Intelligent, thoughtful posts do matter a whole lot. Where on earth is Sabine this morning?

Jessica

November 19th, 2003, 6:22 pm

1. Personally, I like the idea of one thead where we can take everyting into account. If we're only going to talk about the Prophesy we may as well go back to the Prophesy thread.

2. Umm, what are Cat children? Mind you, they're welcome to join, it just sounds like an experiment gone wrong.

3. I don't like the idea that the Power is Power (sorry, whiz). What I like about Harry is that he's such a nice, normal kid with so many layers underneath. I don't want to spoil that by making him some sort of super hero.

sindatur

November 19th, 2003, 6:49 pm

Hi Jess,

Cat Children would be cats, we have no children, so the cats are like our children. We treat them just like human children. Speak to them in a normal manner, lecture them or give them time outs when they're bad, the whole bit. The Tuxedo cat (Male) seems to understand just about every word we say, the Grey Tabby, acts dumb, but she generally seems to get the drift, according to the responses we see when we are talking about her. Sorry 'bout the confusion. :)

Jessica

November 19th, 2003, 6:58 pm

Ah, yes. Well, seeing as how I think my dog is running for President, I am clearly not in a position to disparage Cat children.

Go on over to Indy's thread and sign them up :)

purplehawk, Ball is the sacred game wherein a round object is thrown by humans and retrieved by an animal ;)

silver ink pot

November 19th, 2003, 8:18 pm

Whizbang: I finally made it through this thread! I think you invited me over here about 2 weeks ago! I always feel like I am in the middle of someone else's conversation, though. Is this still the layers thread? I'm not too keen on time travel or the prophecy, because I think JKR hasn't given us all the info we need to solve those. How can we, without knowing more about Lily and James. And JKR may hold out on us till book 7, which is infuriating to me.

I think you've got something there with Corinthians: remember the strange gong sound that Voldemort's shield makes in OotP? I don't know - maybe because every British novel I've ever read had scenes that take place in a church, I just keep expecting Christianity to emerge somewhere. I get strange ideas about it - for instance, when Whizbang said that Mark Evans name was like "Naves," then I started looking at mason's marks in old churches which resemble runes. Then someone had the thread about gargoyles and statues, and when you look on top of Notre Dame du Paris, there is a statue that looks just like Dumbledore and he is called "The Alchemist." I had a weird thought one night of perhaps Mark Evans living near a churchyard - don't know why. We had the scene in GoF in the churchyard/graveyard, so there might be another that is the opposite/mirror image: Harry getting hope from seeing a grave, perhaps of his grandparents or his parents.

I know one thing. JKR's sources are everywhere! I found a line in a poem by Jim Morrison that says, "I'd rather have a feast of friends than a giant family." Of course, Harry knows a giant family, lol - Hagrid's! I've been thinking alot about music sources of inspiration for JKR, and may start a thread. Where do you think it should be. For instance, "In Dreams" by Heart has lines that are so reminiscent it is incredible, although not from a boy's point of view:
Spare a little candle
Save some light for me
Figures up ahead
Moving in the trees
White skin in linen
Perfume on my wrist
And the full moon that hangs over
These dreams in the mist
Darkness on the edge
Shadows where I stand
I search for the time
On a watch with no hands
I want to see you clearly
Come closer than this
But all I remember
Are the dreams in the mist
These dreams go on when I close my eyes
Every second of the night I live another life
These dreams that sleep when it's cold outside
Every moment I'm awake the further I'm away
Is it cloak n dagger
Could it be spring or fall
I walk without a cut
Through a stained glass wall
Weaker in my eyesight
The candle in my grip
And words that have no form
Are falling from my lips
These dreams go on when I close my eyes
Every second of the night I live another life
These dreams that sleep when it's cold outside
Every moment I'm awake the further I'm away
There's something out there
I can't resist
I need to hide away from the pain
There's something out there
I can't resist
The sweetest song is silence
That I've ever heard
Funny how your feet
In dreams never touch the earth
In a wood full of princes
Freedom is a kiss
But the prince hides his face
From dreams in the mist
These dreams go on when I close my eyes
Every second of the night I live another life
These dreams that sleep when it's cold outside
Every moment I'm awake the further I'm away

I have more examples. Do you think this is a valid layer?
I also have some ideas about movie themes and the stories of E. Nesbitt. Interested?

Jessica

November 19th, 2003, 8:40 pm

Hi silverinkpot, Welcome to our little corner of *** Quidditch pitch :)

You can talk about whatever you want here. In theory we are trying to figure out the central mysteries of the series by exploring all possible angles.

But we got a little (okay, a lot) distracted by the closure of the Prophecy thread. We're trying to get back on topic now.

silver ink pot

November 19th, 2003, 9:25 pm

Thanks, jessica! I never know what is going on because there is just so much to read on this forum and so little time!

Here are the things I think are the central mysteries:

Harry's family tree. While I don't want him to be a hero by birth, either, I do believe that there are mysteries in his family tree that JKR intends to explore. This would include the history of James Potter, the Evans family tree, and any connection there might be to the Blacks and the Riddles. And who the heck is Mark Evans? Or is there a real Perseus Evans?

The parallels between Harry and Snape, Dudley's gang and the Marauders. Are the Marauders acting like Deatheaters when they hang Snape upside down? Remember the Dark Mark chapter in GoF when the DE's hang the child upside down and Ron says, "Twisted." Was James a little twisted? The last sentences of Chapter 2 of PS/SS says, "At school, Harry had no one. Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd Harry Potter in his baggy old clothes and broken glasses, and nobody liked to disagree ith Dudley's gang." That is a parallel with Snape and the Marauders, in my opinion.

The War: What will come of the Slytherins? Will they leave the school? Will Snape finally admit which side he is on to his own house? Will Muggles choose to hide their children at Hogwarts? How will this play out? Are there going to be some heroic Slytherins or evil Gryffindors? Turnabout?

Voldemort and the Prophecy. What does the graveyard scene in GoF tell us. Their blood is mingled and Voldemort can touch Harry. He touches him in OotP and yet he cannot kill him. Harry doesn't fear death - he fears being a killer. Voldemort kills easily, but fears death. They are opposites, it is obvious. Mirror images. If Voldie cannot kill Harry, will he try to destroy all the people Harry loves? I think so.

purplehawk

November 19th, 2003, 10:53 pm

Wow! http://pronetworkpc.com/images/purp/welcome.gif, silver ink pot! You've certainly given us tons of stuff to chew on in your last post. My word, I'll be working on that one all evening. Lonnnnnnnnng post coming...

purplehawk, Ball is the sacred game wherein a round object is thrown by humans and retrieved by an animal

:blush: umm... okay. No, "she" doesn't play ball very well, unless it's on a rope. "She" can make a helluva lot of noise banging it against "her" cage. "Her" favorite entertainment is to dive-bomb the dog, who does love to play ball.

1. Personally, I like the idea of one thead where we can take everyting into account. If we're only going to talk about the Prophesy we may as well go back to the Prophesy thread.

:no: Don't think so, Jessica...

phoenixsong

November 20th, 2003, 12:34 am

Hi, folks, good to see you all, and nice, especially to see silver ink pot, who I used to see more regularly back on the Mirrors and the bubblegum threads, before they petered out. Love the thought of discussing Nesbit (and please, won't one of you out there go and read Goudge's Little White Horse? Pretty please? I swear you all would LOVE it, it instantly became one of my favourite books ever!).

I also like the idea of one, catch-all thread. To me the real issue is continuity of discussion, I just can't bear constantly going back to square one. Spiralling back is just fine, but starting from scratch on each page is just too much.

Here's a rather abstract way of thinking about a number of issues: the way the past haunts the present. For example, Harry's and Snape's relationship, and how each of their relationships to the Potters (and Sirius, and Lupin, and possibly Peter) shapes their present relationship. But also Dumbledore, and the way in which his vast experience may cause him to misjudge the actions of those who don't have those experiences, and might thereby cause him to make "an old man's foolish mistake". And Peter: his whole complicated history, never treated as an equal by those he loved, and being caught in a web of ever-more-entrapping decisions as a result. Hagrid, trying to create a family to make up for the losses of his past, the mother he can't remember.

And, of course, the prophecy: vanquishing vs. killing, the Power vs. power, the meaning of equality.

My comments about the past notwithstanding, I am somehow less interested in Harry's ancestry. I don't want him to be Gryffindor's heir! I want Neville to be Gryffindor's heir, just to complicate things for a while (i.e. until book 7!).

I also want to know the circumstances surrounding the torture of the Longbottoms, whether Neville was there, how he might have been affected.

And I wouldn't mind a peek inside that magical book at Hogwarts that registers the birth of magical children!

silver ink pot

November 20th, 2003, 5:22 am

Hi, folks, good to see you all, and nice, especially to see silver ink pot, who I used to see more regularly back on the Mirrors and the bubblegum threads, before they petered out. Love the thought of discussing Nesbit (and please, won't one of you out there go and read Goudge's Little White Horse? Pretty please? I swear you all would LOVE it, it instantly became one of my favourite books ever!).

:love: Hi, phoenixsong! Thanks so much for the warm welcome!

Yes, the Longbottoms are key to the story, especially where Snape and Neville are concerned. What does Frank Longbottom look like? I am dying to know. We know he wasn't a marauder, so what was his role? Was he older? Younger? Will he get better? Will he die in the evil Janus Ward?

I'd love to red the Little White Horse if I could find a copy of it! I've wanted to read it now for 2 years! But there is a ton of stuff on E. Nesbitt online if anyone wants to read it:
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/search?author=nesbit&amode=words&title=&tmode=words

I checked the Book of Dragons out of the library, and I can totally see what JKR loves about this writer. She is a breath of fresh air, and the children act like real children. And like Rowling, things have a logic of their own in the story, but not necessarily in the real world. Like a sudden herd of Hippopotami, for instance, that come out of nowhere!

Hi, Purplehawk! Always glad to see you! Sorry to bombard this thread with stuff. I can never just write a short post with one idea! Not my style, I think. My head is so full of ideas about these books that I don't think I will ever get to express it all.

whizbang121

November 20th, 2003, 6:03 am

Hi everybody! :welcome: Silver Ink Pot. I've been hoping you would come out to "the pitch", and join us from time to time. Invite your friends. :agree:

Wow, you all are going great guns. Hmmm....

I like the idea of Neville being the heir of Gryffindor. Every once in a while, I have a flicker of suspicion about his Gran, though. When we were joking about the vulture hat on Snape, I asked if a vulture could be Snape's animagus and someone, (was it you, Jessica), immediately responded: a death eater. (lightbulb!) OOOoooo ....
Very interesting.

phoenixsong

November 20th, 2003, 3:04 pm

I like the idea of Neville being the heir of Gryffindor. Every once in a while, I have a flicker of suspicion about his Gran, though. When we were joking about the vulture hat on Snape, I asked if a vulture could be Snape's animagus and someone, (was it you, Jessica), immediately responded: a death eater. (lightbulb!) OOOoooo ....
Very interesting.Oooh, I love it! Great job putting those things together. I don't know how many of you have had occasion to see real vultures in action, but it is a pretty unforgettable experience. My suspicions were, up til now, focused on Uncle Algie as the possible death eater in the family, but you are right, the connection between Gran and Snape does give one pause.

As for Neville being Gryffindor's heir: another reason I like it is because of the irony of Slytherin's heir being a half-blood, and Gryffindor's a pureblood. But mostly I just think it would be TERRIFIC for the plot in Book 6 to find out that Neville is Gryffindor's heir, maybe info about the prophecy gets "leaked" and there starts to be a lot more attention paid to Neville.

And silver ink pot: what parallels do you see between Nesbit and JKR, other than style and characterization? Is there anything potentially illuminating in terms of plot? Or even on the front of character: anything with respect to good people who turn out bad, bad people who turn out good, heroes in unexpected places, etc.?

Also, Little White Horse is in print again, as a Puffin book (Linnets and Valerians has been reissued as well, all thanks to the extra publicity from JKR, I believe!). I know our public library got the new paperbacks, though they had never discarded the old hardbacks either. Goudge's other work is in the "adult fiction" section. I feel that Goudge, like Rowling, spans children and adult audiences, but her books that have children as the main protagonists (like Rowling's) get placed in the "children's section". There are a lot of similarities there. For those of you who still have audiences waiting to be read aloud to, Goudge is an absolute delight to read aloud, her language is brilliant and great fun, her adults characters have biting wit. Do check it out, and then lets talk about Maria Merriweather!

whizbang121

November 20th, 2003, 3:57 pm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0142300276/qid=1069342998/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2886983-4745402?v=glance&s=books
This is the page at amazon for The Little White Horse.

I remember a book by Edith Nesbitt about a princess who's hair grew in a mathematical progression. (Might have been an inverse proportion ratio?) Melisande? Or something like that?

...... I'll look it up.

sindatur

November 20th, 2003, 4:07 pm

Hi All,

Vultures and Death Eaters, I never made that connection before, wow.

Neville's Gran as a bad guy, I just can't see it, she's always been portrayed as one of Dumbledore's biggest supporters/fans. It would take me by great surprise if she turned out to be on Voldemort's side, but the Vulture hat does now give me some pause, now that you've pointed out that Vultures are "Death Eaters".

Neville as the Heir to Gryffindor, I've seen this coming since I finished reading GoF (Well, aside from the Prophecy adding to the plausibility of it, since we didn't hear the Prophecy until OotP). I fear he will be revealed as the Heir, and somehow learn about the Prophecy, and will get it into his head that he's the "One", and will go after Voldemort himself, in order to save Harry from making a big mistake and sacrificing himself for nothing (since Neville will be convinced he must be the "One"). Poor Neville would perish in this scenario, but, his attempt will do something that opens the door for Harry to throw the final blow, allowing Harry not to die at the end.

{Either that or Neville will become the Herbology Teacher after their 7th year, and eventually become Headmaster}

Vigilance

November 20th, 2003, 4:39 pm

Yeah--I really don't want to believe Gran, who has raised her own son and then Neville to NOT be evil gits is herself an evil git. Especially after loosing her son the way she does...

silver ink pot

November 20th, 2003, 5:22 pm

I knew I was going to love this thread! Already we are talking about one of my favorite subjects: Neville's Grandmother!

Yes, Vutures are indeed "Death Eaters" - that's fascinating.

However, JKR has this thing about ambiguity. Things that seem bad are good, things that seem disgusting are necessary, etc. The same goes for people.

I was playing with anagrams when I first joined here, and I found a couple of interesting anagrams around Neville's Grandmother's clothing. The most obvious was "Red Bag" which anagrams to "Badger". Of course, she badgers Neville, and so does Snape. Then there is "vuture hat" which anagrams to "Value Truth." I thought this was significant because these clothes are repeated in descriptions over and over, and we see Grandma again in OotP. When I posted this, though, I realized that alot of people dislike Neville's Grandmother, so they don't see her as positive at all. So I dropped the idea until today when I was reading here.

Look what I found! The ancient Egyptians worshipped Vultures, specifically, Griffon Vultures!!! They didn't associate them just with death, but with protection and motherhood!

http://www.pauldfrost.btinternet.co.uk/intro_h2.html (http://www.pauldfrost.btinternet.co.uk/intro_h2.html)

In Greek & Assyrian mythology, the (old world) vulture was believed to be descended from the griffin, the guardian of the mysteries of life & death. The Egyptian Goddess of Truth, Maat, was often depicted with a vulture feather.

http://66.102.11.104/search?q=cache:RvdVf-K4cw8J:edu.iucnp.org/newbirds/part1.htm+griffon+vulture+greek+mythology&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 (http://66.102.11.104/search?q=cache:RvdVf-K4cw8J:edu.iucnp.org/newbirds/part1.htm+griffon+vulture+greek+mythology&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

Thousand of years ago when the Pharaoh ruled Egypt, the Griffon Vultures and Lappet faced Vultures represented the goddess Nekhebet, goddess of child birth.

http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptgods9.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptgods9.html)

In Southern Africa, the name for an Egyptian vulture is synonymous with the term applied to lovers, for vultures like pigeons are always seen in pairs. Thus mother and child remain closely bonded together. Pairing, bonding, protecting, loving are essential attributes associated with a vulture. Because of its immense size and power and its ability to sore high up in the sky, the vulture is considered to be nearer to God who is believed to reside above the sky. Thus the qualities of a vulture are associated with Godliness. On the other hand the wide wingspan of a vulture may be seen as all encompassing and providing a protective cover to its infants. The vulture when carrying out its role as a mother and giving protection to its infants may exhibit a forceful nature while defending her young. All these qualities inspired the imagination of the Ancient Egyptians. They adopted what seemed to them at the time to be motherly qualities, the qualities of protecting and nurturing their young. - Nekhbet was thought to be the wife of Hapi, in his Upper Egyptian aspect. She was also linked to Horus in his role of god of Upper Egypt. Due to her vulture form, she was linked to the goddess Mut, the mother goddess and wife of Amen. Both Mut and Nekhbet were a particular type of vulture - the griffon vulture (Gyps fulvus). It was the griffon vulture that was usually related to the goddesses and to royalty.

This just blew me away! I feel even more strongly after reading this that both Snape and Neville's Grandmother are not Death Eaters, and are trying to help Neville survive.

Jessica

November 20th, 2003, 6:16 pm

I have to confess that I did not come up with the Vulture/death eater connection. Sorry, whiz!

I have mixed emotions about Neville's gran. I like her as a person. SHe is moral upright and flies in the face of social convention.

But I don't like how she treats Neville. I would like to think she has a reason for it but I don't know if this is true or not. She is hurting him with her criticism and I have a lot of issues with that. Neville is a great kid and I'm loving watching him come into his own.

whizbang121

November 20th, 2003, 6:26 pm

Jessica

November 20th, 2003, 6:30 pm

Okay, I don't want to get into shipping but
Neville and Ginny? :huh:

Well to each his (or her) own.

Back to Neville. I do like the Neville - Heir of Gryffindor theory. Let someone else have some glory for a change. And this may explain his Gran's criticism. She knows he's the Heir and she has to prepare him so she is much harder on his than she wants to be?

whizbang121

November 20th, 2003, 6:41 pm

I absolutely refuse to get into shipping. It's only based on the fact that they went to the ball together.

But c'mon. The Longbottom Witches. Two sets of identical twins and one set of fraternal triplets. I haven't seen Charley's Angels, but don't they have a "boss" this voice they take orders from? Hmmmmmm.......

Karate with wands. :eyebrows:

sindatur

November 20th, 2003, 6:49 pm

Can we have some combination of the above. I loved it until you killed him. And I really want him and Ginny to have 7 stunning red haired daughters to carry on the next generation: "The Adventures of the Longbottom Witches." Kind of a cross between Harry Potter and Charley's Angels. Think of the possibilities! A story starter for Sean's birthday party, perhaps?

Hi Whiz,

The other side (which I find less likely), is that Harry does die, turns out not to be the "one", then Neville realizes, he's been the "one" all along, and draws the final blow. (I doubt this though, because the books are HP and...)

I believe Neville and Harry each have one component (one is the Heir, the other is the One, one of them dies in the final confrontation, so the other can finish the job). The one who survives, I agree will probably marry Ginny.

phoenixsong

November 20th, 2003, 7:20 pm

Hi, folks. I took a peek into one of the "new" old prophecy threads (still can't really feel like I can post there), and couldn't pass up this lovely thought by Doggy (who sometimes used to post on the old prophecy thread):Ok, reading your post, Dedalus, I just got the craziest idea. That it means that only one body can live, and that that one is shared both Voldemort and Harry for awhile, before one of them sort of conquers the other - pushes him out so to speak. And that that's what's happening now, with the two being to tell the other's feelings.
...
Seriously, it's not true, because it does say "neither can live while the other survives". It's the "survives" that got me. Let me try to explain what I mean. Right now, for example, I'm living, but I'm not exactly surviving, because I've got nothing to survive. I'm not dying in some disease, I don't have an incurable wound in my chest. Nothing. I don't even have a broken heart. So, that shows that the two have to meet somewhere, where one of them has to, not only live, but survive. It can't just be Voldemort comitting suicide, because Harry doesn't really survuve through that. Not in that way at least.I thought this was VERY provocative. It raises the interesting question of why either MUST die at the hand of the other, and questions what the circumstances might be that would make it literally impossible for them to both be alive, or for them to both be surviving. We have discussed the possibility that this part of the prophecy has already been fulfilled, and in some way this perspective supports that view, since to some degree you can say that both Harry and Voldemort are survivors of that night in Godric's Hollow: Harry somehow survived Voldie's curse (but here's the rub, he is alive, isn't he? There's that essential phrase: the boy who lived. But then note the past tense: maybe he only lived before the attack in Godric's Hollow, and he is not alive but only surviving now), and Voldie somehow survived the rebound.

But then I think we might also try to use our collective brain power to come up with some other magical scenario in which neither Harry nor Voldemort can be alive (literally, not just figuratively!) while the other survives. Any thoughts?

Vigilance

November 20th, 2003, 10:49 pm

Maybe to the above idea from pheonixsong, we could include discussion about Voldemort possessing Harry in OotP and that Voldie's body only exists because Harry's body exists (GoF)?

Jessica

November 20th, 2003, 10:56 pm

Well, some people (whiz) think that Voldemort is not attached to his body and is therefore not alive.

I like your idea of the connection between the two bodies (the infamous gleam of triumph?) and I also like Doggy's idea of "survival" (gotta get Gloria Gaynor out of my head now).

Can we combine these ideas with the love/touch theories we were discussing earlier? (now I have to get the divinyls out of my head!)

phoenixsong

November 21st, 2003, 12:53 am

Another thought along those line: it does seem to rule out the "dementor's kiss for Voldie" theory, since Voldie would technically still "survive" even after the kiss.

As for the various possession theories, like those mentioned by Vigilance and jessica, it seems that some new, different form of possession may be required, one that is true symbiosis, perhaps. But what could make Harry so bound up with Voldemort that he "must" die? (Again, I encourage us to be literal: why would Harry have to die? What would be the circumstances to require that event?)

And excellent point, Vigilance, about Voldemort's new "mortality" resting upon Harry's mortality (i.e. upon the fact that Harry was human). As Hagrid told us, Voldemort didn't have enough human left in him to die. But now that he has this human injection?

Vigilance

November 21st, 2003, 1:05 am

Reasons why Harry must die:
1. He makes a bargain (that will hopefully backfire) to give himself over to Voldie in exchange for someone else's life. :huh:
2. He wilingly decides to jump between AK curse and its intended victim :huh:
3. He lets Voldie possess him, vacates to Voldie's body and kills the other body :no:
4. He must die to fulfill the prophecy, it's self-perpetuating and determining. :banghead:

Jessica

November 21st, 2003, 1:15 am

thanks for perking us all up Vigilance ;)

I know I'm an optimist but I don't think Harry is going to die. I think if JKR was going to kill him off she wouldn't keep hinting about it. She'd hit us in the stomach with it at the end of the last book and leave us bawling. I think the hints are just to keep us on our toes so we're grateful to her when Harry survives.

So I'm staying out of the Harry will die specualtion. But you all are more than welcome to go ahead with it :)

whizbang121

November 21st, 2003, 1:48 am

Hi, folks. I took a peek into one of the "new" old prophecy threads (still can't really feel like I can post there), and couldn't pass up this lovely thought by Doggy (who sometimes used to post on the old prophecy thread):I thought this was VERY provocative. It raises the interesting question of why either MUST die at the hand of the other, and questions what the circumstances might be that would make it literally impossible for them to both be alive, or for them to both be surviving. We have discussed the possibility that this part of the prophecy has already been fulfilled, and in some way this perspective supports that view, since to some degree you can say that both Harry and Voldemort are survivors of that night in Godric's Hollow: Harry somehow survived Voldie's curse (but here's the rub, he is alive, isn't he? There's that essential phrase: the boy who lived. But then note the past tense: maybe he only lived before the attack in Godric's Hollow, and he is not alive but only surviving now), and Voldie somehow survived the rebound.

But then I think we might also try to use our collective brain power to come up with some other magical scenario in which neither Harry nor Voldemort can be alive (literally, not just figuratively!) while the other survives. Any thoughts?
Shoot me for being repetitive, but if Voldemort is "worse than dead" he's not exactly in the same state of existence as Harry and everyone else.
I think that in the end, the deciding encounter between Harry and Voldemort will take place in the connection they have in the scar. That place where they are present to each other anc actually see through each other's eye is where the final battle will take place. I think it may be a battle of wills. We already saw that battle in GoF, but still ...

Once again I would like to point out, I came in third from last in the predictions for book 5 contest.

Jessica

November 21st, 2003, 1:52 am

whizbang121

November 21st, 2003, 3:48 am

whiz, I forgot to ask, how did you do in the Book 5 preciction contest?

The thins is, he used to be "worse than dead". But now he is "human enough to die". A huge transformation took place at the end of GoF and I don't think we've begun to realize the subtleties that this transformation is going to effect.

Katze won. :clap: She was amazing. :agree:

You're probably right. I still think he's missing his life energy though. It's on Harry's forehead.

phoenixsong

November 21st, 2003, 10:32 am

Shoot me for being repetitive, but if Voldemort is "worse than dead" he's not exactly in the same state of existence as Harry and everyone else.
I think that in the end, the deciding encounter between Harry and Voldemort will take place in the connection they have in the scar. That place where they are present to each other anc actually see through each other's eye is where the final battle will take place. I think it may be a battle of wills. We already saw that battle in GoF, but still ...I won't shoot you if you won't shoot me...What I was trying to say is that we should try to find a literal interpretation for the words "must" and "can" in the prophecy. This doesn't rule out the sort of mutual possession you describe, but it has to be something more than that, because we saw that in the case of Voldie's possession of Quirrell, Voldie could "live" while Quirrell "survived", or, perhaps it was Quirrell who was "living" while Voldie "survived" or maybe both. But do you see what I'm driving at? What could be the circumstances that would really and truly, literally, necessitate the death of one? I don't have any answers! I'm just hoping together we might come up with something. Is there some sort of magical "condition" that makes two people co-dependent but ultimately suffocating of one another?

rotsiepots

November 21st, 2003, 10:36 am

Right, I'm moving this to the Great Hall. It's a shame to leave it in the Quidditch Pitch. So long as you're talking about HP, this thread is fine to stay both in the GH and open.

Keep theorising, because it makes for some very interesting reading. :)

Mods: PM me if you wish to discuss anything about this thread.

Thanks!

sindatur

November 21st, 2003, 3:44 pm

Hey look guys, we've gone Legitimate.

PhoenixSong, I would say it's more likely that Quirrel was the one living, and Volde the one surviving.

Whiz, I agree that ultimately, it will probably come down to an internal battle of wills, but, I believe it will start as an external battle, like a duel. You see a lot of posts, where people say Volde and Harry can't use wands against each other because of the Priori Incantatem in GoF, but, I didn't see it like that. Yes, it's possible that could happen again, but, I got the impression it was split second timing that caused it to occur, not simply the fact that they have brother wands. In fact, that may be precisely what will happen. Maybe it'll start as a duel, the light will flow, Priori Incantatem will occur, only this time, it will be Volde and Harry's souls/life forces (what have you) that make the struggle against each other. And maybe the shades will assist Harry (something along those lines, spur of the moment thought, so, not all plotted out, anyone wanna try twisting or expanding that?)

Doggy

November 21st, 2003, 3:58 pm

Hey look guys, we've gone Legitimate.
Yay! Let's keep it that way!

Whiz, I agree that ultimately, it will probably come down to an internal battle of wills, but, I believe it will start as an external battle, like a duel. You see a lot of posts, where people say Volde and Harry can't use wands against each other because of the Priori Incantatem in GoF, but, I didn't see it like that. Yes, it's possible that could happen again, but, I got the impression it was split second timing that caused it to occur, not simply the fact that they have brother wands.
I don't think so. It seems to be too much of a chance. Voldemort and Harry have dueled with their own wands face to face once and then the two spells collide and make Priori Incantatem. Spells colliding don't happen often; in fact I can only remember it happening once (in GoF, when Hermione grows such long teeth), and it seems too much of a coincidense to have it happen right at that moment.

In fact, that may be precisely what will happen. Maybe it'll start as a duel, the light will flow, Priori Incantatem will occur, only this time, it will be Volde and Harry's souls/life forces (what have you) that make the struggle against each other. And maybe the shades will assist Harry (something along those lines, spur of the moment thought, so, not all plotted out, anyone wanna try twisting or expanding that?)
Very good idea. That'd be interesting, and it'd (sort of) tie in why my "surviving theory". Only, it seems a bit of a one-way match if the shadows assist too much, since Harry (hopefully) won't have killed anyone then. Or, maybe that's the "heart" (if that's the power). That Harry'll have help from all of those who loved him. Maybe Bertha jorkins didn't love him, fine, but at least she was on his side in the graveyard.

sindatur

November 21st, 2003, 4:04 pm

Very good idea. That'd be interesting, and it'd (sort of) tie in why my "surviving theory". Only, it seems a bit of a one-way match if the shadows assist too much, since Harry (hopefully) won't have killed anyone then. Or, maybe that's the "heart" (if that's the power). That Harry'll have help from all of those who loved him. Maybe Bertha jorkins didn't love him, fine, but at least she was on his side in the graveyard.

That's a good point. And come to think of it, what if Priori Incantatem only spits up the same spells once (IE: if it does occur in the final battle, the Shades that appeared in the graveyard have already been cleaned out). So, the only person we know Volde killed so far was an incompetent Death Eater, right? So maybe Volde would be the one being assisted?

Jill

November 21st, 2003, 4:19 pm

Yay! Let's keep it that way!

I agree.

I don't think so. It seems to be too much of a chance. Voldemort and Harry have dueled with their own wands face to face once and then the two spells collide and make Priori Incantatem. Spells colliding don't happen often; in fact I can only remember it happening once (in GoF, when Hermione grows such long teeth), and it seems too much of a coincidense to have it happen right at that moment.

That I agree with, the fact that the Priori Incantatem spells both collided at the same time and did not work but actually opposed each other, does support the prophical theory, that both are equal but in my eyes both are opposite. The rarety of the whole incident struck me as Voldemort did not know or realise what was actually happening so this to suggests that it is indeed an unusal event. This brings me to the fact that both Harry and Voldemort are unusal wizards both as stated by the prophecy, containing powers that the wizarding world probably does not know of or has seen for at least a long, long time.

Very good idea. That'd be interesting, and it'd (sort of) tie in why my "surviving theory". Only, it seems a bit of a one-way match if the shadows assist too much, since Harry (hopefully) won't have killed anyone then. Or, maybe that's the "heart" (if that's the power). That Harry'll have help from all of those who loved him. Maybe Bertha jorkins didn't love him, fine, but at least she was on his side in the graveyard.

Yes and we could extend that theory, you see Voldemorts powers seem to feed of death and Harrys off life itself. So any shadows of the past that may come out of Harrys wand may be of those he has help or saved. A true battle against good and evil. What is interesting is that the shadows that came from Voldemorts wand sided Harry, so people such as Sirius, Bertha (as you mention Doggy) and Petigrew may all be present within Harry heart and therefore be transfered to the cores within Harrys wand. It does say in the prophecy that the Dark Lord will be vanquished by the hand of the other, well the wand is held in the hand of each wizard. A fate worse than death might actually be Voldemort becoming trapped within Harrys wand as a mere shadow, living an existance of solitude and exile from the rest of the wizarding world. That way both equals will become one. Harry will gain all the power from Voldemort as his power will be preserved in Harrys wand core.

Doggy

November 21st, 2003, 4:45 pm

Yes and we could extend that theory, you see Voldemorts powers seem to feed of death and Harrys off life itself. So any shadows of the past that may come out of Harrys wand may be of those he has help or saved. A true battle against good and evil. What is interesting is that the shadows that came from Voldemorts wand sided Harry, so people such as Sirius, Bertha (as you mention Doggy) and Petigrew may all be present within Harry heart and therefore be transfered to the cores within Harrys wand.
Pettigrew? But as far as we know, he isn't dead yet. Of course, Voldemort might have killed him since we didn't meet him in OotP, but he could be alive. We don't know. And Sirius, he was killed by Bellatrix, who technically didn't kill him through her wand, just pushed him so he died.

It does say in the prophecy that the Dark Lord will be vanquished by the hand of the other, well the wand is held in the hand of each wizard. A fate worse than death might actually be Voldemort becoming trapped within Harrys wand as a mere shadow, living an existance of solitude and exile from the rest of the wizarding world. That way both equals will become one. Harry will gain all the power from Voldemort as his power will be preserved in Harrys wand core.
Voldemort trapped in Harry's wand.. I like the idea. Only, it does seem to be a lot worse than death, and could Harry really do that to Voldemort, however horrible he is? I don't know if I could, but then again, I couldn't kill Voldemort either if I had too.. And what would Voldemort do in there? Sitting in his wand?

Jill

November 21st, 2003, 4:59 pm

Pettigrew? But as far as we know, he isn't dead yet. Of course, Voldemort might have killed him since we didn't meet him in OotP, but he could be alive. We don't know. And Sirius, he was killed by Bellatrix, who technically didn't kill him through her wand, just pushed him so he died.

Sorry, what I meant was that Harrys wand supports life, love and immortality and will therefore absorb into its cores not shadows of death but shadows of good deads. So the person does not have to die but simply Harry just has to save them or love them enough for them to have a part of that love stored within the wand core. The prophecy does suggest a power the dark lord no not, so perhaps this is that power as the dark lord in GoF did not know what was happening when the two spells merged as one.

Voldemort trapped in Harry's wand.. I like the idea. Only, it does seem to be a lot worse than death, and could Harry really do that to Voldemort, however horrible he is? I don't know if I could, but then again, I couldn't kill Voldemort either if I had too.. And what would Voldemort do in there? Sitting in his wand?

Yes it would be a fate worse than death, to be kept imprisoned in the core of a wand that symbolises love, life and immortality or would it, I mean aren't those supposed to be the things that Voldemort seeks. Ummm. I might have just found a problem with this theory. What does anyone else think?

sindatur

November 21st, 2003, 5:23 pm

HI Jill, I don't see that as discounting your theory. YEs, Voldemort wants immortality, but he wants freedom to go with it. Living forever in wand seems very much like torture. probably even worse than being put in a box or coffin and then buried alive, and never being able to die.

Jessica

November 21st, 2003, 6:13 pm

You're probably right. I still think he's missing his life energy though. It's on Harry's forehead.

Okay, let's look again at what we put into the mix :)

1) Bone of the father
2) Blood of the enemy
3) Flesh of the servant.

The physical components are pretty straightforward here, flesh, blood and bone. Standard components for a body.

But the relationships are fascinating:

Father: The one who gave him life.
Enemy: The one who would take his life
Servant: The one who would lay down his life.

These three combine to restore Voldemort's body. These in combination with the Ugly Baby and whatever residual life force was stored therein. Does this add up to life or just a body?

I think it adds up to life.

purplehawk

November 21st, 2003, 6:27 pm

I think so, too. I also think it adds up to Voldemort and his life, meaning he isn't some rickety shell of his former self. Heir of Slytherin, highly evil son of gun... he's got it all back... including a few drops of something that may come back to bite him. Then there's that hand of Worm's - I can see that one throttling him where it hurts.

Jessica

November 21st, 2003, 6:33 pm

Now that actually brings up an interesting point.

None of the components come from either his old body nor his mother.

Which means that no matter from Slytherin is there anymore! Salazar Slytherin's blood no longer "flows through his veins"!

So the only remaining heir of Slytherin components are whatever Slytherin-life force resided in the Ugly Baby and whatever Voldemort transferred to Harry and subsequently re-transferred to himself.

No idea what this means :)

whizbang121

November 21st, 2003, 6:58 pm

Well, either Harry or Voldemort has got to be in a state other that what we would think of as "alive." It's in the prophesy. So maybe it's Harry who's not "alive" in the conventional definition. But one of them has got to be something other than alive.

The Great Hall. Thanks to the powers that be where ever you are.

But hopefully we won't forget that the original intention for Layers was to be a place where we could make connections unfettered by narrowly defined topics and then take our developed ideas back to the appropriate threads for further discussion. It was never intended to compete but rather to allow a little more elbow room in discussions.

At least that's what I hope for it.

sindatur

November 21st, 2003, 7:03 pm

Interesting observation Jessica, that hadn't occured to me at all. The Slytherin Heir-lineage came from Tom Riddle Jr.'s mother, and there is no Tom Riddle Jr, nor his mother's body in the recipe. So is Voldemort, still the heir of Slytherin? It would seem only so if Harry or Wormtail have that same lineage!!! Very interesting indeed, perhaps there is something to those seemingly ridiculous theories of Harry and/or Lily somehow being related by blood to Voldemort? Seems unlikely, but, your observation gives reason to wonder.

Whiz, I'm still thinking "Neither can live while the other survives" (if it's only talking about HArry and Voldemort) means neither of them is free to live their life, because they are locked in their destiny, and until that destiny is fulfilled, they're merely existing. I don't see it as being un-alive.

Jessica

November 21st, 2003, 7:06 pm

No, it says "neither may live"

Maybe it just means have a life. Live, you know.

Neither can do that right now because they are too tied in each other.

What do you think of my Slytherin idea?

P.S. I changed my sig since this is no longer post count off :)

purplehawk

November 21st, 2003, 7:14 pm

I think the Slytherin genes were still resident in the Ugly Baby Voldemort, just as were the genes of his father, Tom Riddle. What he lacked was a house for all of him to reside him. That "house" is what he conjured in the cemetery that night. He didn't write himself a whole new DNA... because all that survived the curse-that-failed. Voldemort was still Voldemort - he just couldn't take shape.

Filia Tenebrarum

November 21st, 2003, 7:43 pm

Hello everyone! This seems to be the closest we have to the old prophecy thread. I daresay you've all had a good fume many pages back so I won't waste time grumbling about moderating practises. Ah, just scrolled up and read rotsiepots's post. Glad to see we're being recognised as a serious thread again.
But then note the past tense: maybe he only lived before the attack in Godric's Hollow, and he is not alive but only surviving now
No, no. JK makes a point of Harry truly living. Remember Dumbledore's most-quoted saying: "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, Harry, remember that". Harry took this advice completely. He works hard at Quidditch and his school work, brews illegal potions in girls toilets, learns a charm meant to be too difficult for school age wizards with the whole perpose in mind being to fight off his fear, he starts a secret defence group, risking expulsion and every so often ends up fighting Lord Voldemort, risking death. I think with his experience Harry has lived more than most of us, more than me anyway and I'm the same age he is.

Voldemort's white poodle named Fifi.
What? I suppose if I read everyone's signatures properly I deserve what I get... _Why_ does Voldemort own a white poodle?

Reasons why Harry must die:
1. He makes a bargain (that will hopefully backfire) to give himself over to Voldie in exchange for someone else's life.
2. He wilingly decides to jump between AK curse and its intended victim
3. He lets Voldie possess him, vacates to Voldie's body and kills the other body
4. He must die to fulfill the prophecy, it's self-perpetuating and determining.
Hmm (not judgemental hmm, just thoughtful hmm) Wasn't there some discussion about there being complicated conditions by which the hero could die, which always sound like they'd never be fulfilled but always are? They had a clever name beginning with a g, I think. Llew Llaw Gyffes (OK, I can't pronounce Welsh properly, but here's my best guess. Welsh double ls: put tongue behind teeth as if you were going to says "lan" and breath out. I think the name is pronounced "LLEH-ooh llow GIFF-ess" If anyone here speaks Welsh, correct me.) could only be killed when he had one foot on the edge of a bath which was under a little thatched roof and had one foot on the back of a goat with a spear which had been worked on only during mass on Sundays (or Druid's rites if you like Evangeline Walton's version). Don't laugh, it happened. Baldr could only be killed with the mistletoe because everything else had vowed not to harm him. Do you think Harry or Voldemort have perculiar conditions to make their death possible? (Aberforth keeps goats...)

Dad's about to tell me to get off the computer; I'd better wind this up, though I don't seem to have written much. Oh well, it's work experience this week so I'll probably have extra time for posting. See you asap.

FlyingPhoenix

November 21st, 2003, 8:05 pm

sindatur

November 21st, 2003, 8:22 pm

Hi Flying Phoenix, welcome to the Layers thread.

Yes, this is a brainstorming thread. Mostly because the Prophecy thread was too narrow, So Whizbang set this one up in the Quidditch Pitch so we could explore different aspects around the Prophecy. RotsiePots noticed we were discussing too much interesting stuff in this thread, so it got moved to the Great Hall.

I'm not sure about Percy, I've heard the theory that his letter to Ron was actually a warning to him and HArry what was coming, but, I have a feeling Percy is just Percy. He thinks everything has a rule, and every rule must be in it's place.

What did you mean about the two important muggleborn females (Lily and Hermione, I assume?). There are also Muggleborns males in the story. Could you elaborate on that theory?

Jill

November 21st, 2003, 8:24 pm

I'm feeling right now like someone who is very new to this forum so I should say Hello at first. Don't you think there should exist a Hello-smilie? Very usefull I would think.

Anyway this is sometthing like a brainstorming thread thats fine with me because I need this right now. What is in my brain regarding to the HP-books? Let see:

-Muggleborns (Its interesting that two important girl/woman are muggleborn there is a reason, me thinks)
-Percy Weasley, spy, DE, bad, good. I don't buy it that he was after GoF at Fudge side, rather a spy by DD. I mean he was there at the 3th task.

-Hermione's or DD's words: "We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust-" (There is ringing something badly in my head. I mean come on don't you think it will be exact opposite?)

-Jealousy (This I think its rather Harry than Ron. I'm speaking about didn't you wonder why Harry isn't jealousy? I did wonder why he don't get angry and he was and now I wondering about this)

-2 Prophecy's? It should give 3 after my thinking. Past, Present and futur.

-What power does Harry has?

I think thats at first all.

I think the power that Harry might have is what everyone posses, love, simple, pure but strong and power, love. I also believe that the prophecy is somewhat fragmented into sections and if you unwrap those small parts, you can see a bigging, middle and end. You see the prophecy is not written as if each sentence follows the next. It is written as if there is a brake in time. A large break in that time period.

No, it says "neither may live"

Maybe it just means have a life. Live, you know.

Neither can do that right now because they are too tied in each other.

All very valid points made. I mean your write I did not see it that way because I was too fixed in the one shall be vanquished part to really notice it. In the end, they could just both end up leading normal lifes and nothing more than that. But then what more would you want, than to have a normal life.

What do you think of my Slytherin idea?

Salazars blood no longer courses through Voldemorts veins, yes that too seem true and whats more is that Voldemort has taken one step backwards in his quest for immortality, he has become a little more human. If Voldemort transfered part of the slytherin heir over to Harry as a baby and marked him as his equal. Then Voldemort now is no longer Harrys equal as he does not posses Salazars power or blood running through his veins. Instead Harry would be Salazars true heir now.

I think the Slytherin genes were still resident in the Ugly Baby Voldemort, just as were the genes of his father, Tom Riddle. What he lacked was a house for all of him to reside him. That "house" is what he conjured in the cemetery that night. He didn't write himself a whole new DNA... because all that survived the curse-that-failed. Voldemort was still Voldemort - he just couldn't take shape.

No true but Voldemort change it slightly and therefore may have changed some of his heritage. So what would these changes do to Voldemort? How will they affect the way the prophecy runs? Will they effect the prophecies outcome? I am not sure about these questions. Do any of you have any answers.

whizbang121

November 21st, 2003, 8:28 pm

No, it says "neither may live"
Maybe it just means have a life. Live, you know.
Neither can do that right now because they are too tied in each other..
Then there's the whole unicorn blood - half life thing, but even before that.....

What do you think of my Slytherin idea?I think it's brilliant! What do you suppose it means? If he's no longer the ancestor/descendant/heir of slytherin by blood anyway, how is he connected to Slytherin's great work or the chamber of secrets? He's no longer related to grindelwald, either, if he ever was.
P.S. I changed my sig since this is no longer post count off :)
Oh right. Thanks for the reminder. ;)

*************************
I knew this sounded familiar. ;)
I think the Slytherin genes were still resident in the Ugly Baby Voldemort, just as were the genes of his father, Tom Riddle. What he lacked was a house for all of him to reside him. That "house" is what he conjured in the cemetery that night. He didn't write himself a whole new DNA... because all that survived the curse-that-failed. Voldemort was still Voldemort - he just couldn't take shape.
But by his own definition, he was less than the meanest ghost. What was there to have any genes?

Jessica

November 21st, 2003, 8:44 pm

Welcome Flying Phoenix and Filia. We're very glad you've joined us!

whiz, I agree with you that the Ugly Baby didn't have any SLytherin in him.

I think that unless Voldemort passed his Slytherin blood on to Harry (which is unlikely - I think he only passed on non-physical things) than Voldemort no longer has Slytherin blood in him.

I don't know what it means but I think it's significant since he was so proud of the blood in the first place and the Death Eaters put a lot of emphasis on blood. Pure blood, blood traitors etc.

Vigilance

November 21st, 2003, 8:55 pm

It would depend on whether his mother or father passed along the genes. I *assume* he got Slythy blood from Mama, but he may well have had it from Dad--who obviously is the one of the two to have issues with purity. Maybe his dad's grandpa was a squib. What would Tom Riddle senior know about it?

sindatur

November 21st, 2003, 9:14 pm

When Voldemort lost his body after attacking Harry, was the "Ugly Baby thing" what he was left with, so he actually did have a body (as useless as it was) or was he just a conciousness with no physical body whatsoever?

If he had no body whatsoever, he would have no genes left, and the only genes his new body would have would be those in the recipe (Harry, Peter, Tom Riddle Sr.).

So, Vigilance, you think there's a possibility that the Slytherin Heir Lineage came through his father? That would mean he wasn't a half blood afterall then. I think that's difficult though because I believe a Squib is more rare that a Muggleborn Magical person, so that would mean a Squib (Marvolo Riddle) gave birth to a Squib (Tom Riddle Snr), and it seems the odds against that occuring are astronomical.

Vigilance

November 21st, 2003, 9:23 pm

I think that you stop thinking of yourself as a squib when you no longer interact with wizards and can no longer see things like dementors. Surely squibs who have kids pass on less ability than they themselves have. After all, and for example, Molly has one cousin who happens to be a Muggle? How does that happen unless you can just turn out Muggle one day?

About the pureblood issue--I don't think there is such a thing. Not only does Hagrid say "there's not a wizard alive who isn't half blood or less" (more or less those same words), the idea of a "pure" blood is a myth of origin (somehow there's a beginning, a progenitor, chosen to be better than everyone else because he sprang from the mind of Zeus, having no filthy, mortal blood, etc). I'm telling you, it's all hype and propaganda and the legitimation of racism, classism and slavery.

sindatur

November 21st, 2003, 9:41 pm

Vigilance, I quite agree about it all being Propaganda, and an excuse for being racist.

Molly have a Muggle cousin would be quite easy. Molly's Mom or Dad could have a brother or sister who married a muggle. Any nieces or nephews of that Muggle Aunt/Uncle that were born to the Muggle side of the family would be Muggle Cousins.

Vigilance

November 21st, 2003, 9:48 pm

but you see how they would still have half of Molly's wizarding relative's genetic code? Muggle is more complex than it seems.

Jessica

November 21st, 2003, 9:51 pm

I'm sorry, didn't Tom Riddle say in CoS that the Slytherin blood came from his mother?

Looking at the Riddle family though I can't imagine that they're squibs. They just seem to much like Vernon to be squibs.

On the blood thing, I think there is a significance to blood and that's why it is mentioned so often. Not in a sense that pure-bloods are better than muggle borns but just that the blood itself is important. Not quite sure what it means though.

sindatur

November 21st, 2003, 10:01 pm

but you see how they would still have half of Molly's wizarding relative's genetic code? Muggle is more complex than it seems.

No, no, I mean on the Muggle side of that family, not Muggleborn offspring.
It is confusing so let me lay it out with some names:
Molly has a brother named Bob (Wizard)
Bob has a wife named June (Muggle)
June's Brother John (also a muggle) has a wife named Jane (also a Muggle)
John and Jane Have children who are Muggles (No Wizzard Blood, they are related to Molly by Marriage, not by blood) These would be Muggle Cousins of Molly's

Thanks Jessica, I thought it was an established fact that Tom M. Riddle got the heir lineage through his mother, but, sometimes I'm not sure if it's an assumption or an established fact (even the established facts could be proven wrong in a later book though)

FlyingPhoenix

November 21st, 2003, 10:07 pm

Thank you for welcoming.

I like to explain the point Muggleborns. See I find it interesting that two very close female persons in Harrys live were or are Muggleborn. This would be Lily and Hermione. We can all agree that this are probably the closest females in Harrys live so far, or am I wrong? Anyway JKR chose to let them be both Muggleborns. If this where just there to explain the dislike of some purebloods agains Muggleborns than she could have chosen easily that only Hermione is muggleborn. But instead we have two interesting pathern like that Voldemort was in fact by Lily defeat and not Harry. She as muggleborn did defeat the one who hated unclean blood. I think this part in COS is very important as Harry said that bit about his mother. Than we have Hermione who is describe through all books as extrem smart. There even exist a quote by Lupin where he state that she is the most brilliant which in her age he ever meets. In COS we have a similar quote about Riddle by Dumbledore he said he was the brilliants student who left hogwarts ever. Than we have that Riddle later as Voldemort create a group with the name Deatheaters around himself to hunt and kill people.
In fact Hermione create (its important that JKR let Ron and Harry steadly point out it was Hermiones idea) Dumbledores Armee. The idea behind this is to defend yourself against evilness. DA is defensive, DE is agressive. Than we have this with the DE-scar later we get Hermione use the same charm like Voldemort but not at skin rather ona galeon.
Its an interesting path JKR is going there. Its like two opposite to each other by Lily was it: Lily/love/defence vs Voldemort/hate/attack.
by Hermione we have till now: Hermione/defence vs Voldemort/attack.

Jessica

November 21st, 2003, 10:57 pm

Okay, I am going to share my Muggle wizrd genetics theory which I have posted several times, but I like it so there.

I think that magic is a dominant gene in wizards and a recessive gene in muggles. The presence of magic serves to activate a single Magic gene in wizards while the absence of magice causes the opposite effect in muggles.

M = magic
m = muggle

So for wizard borns:

MM = Wizard
Mm = Wizard
mm = Squib

Whereas for muggle borns.

MM = Wizard
Mm = Muggle
mm = Muggle.

This expains the dynamics and ratio of muggle borns and squibs in the respective populations.

Does that help with what you're tring to do, sindatur?

FP: I agree with you it is very interesting that the two main females in Harry's life to date are Muggle born. And I think there is a storng Hermoine/Lily parallel. Don't know what it means yet though.

purplehawk

November 21st, 2003, 11:08 pm

You're so right about the opposites, Flying Phoenix. The most obvious pair of opposites are Harry and Voldemort himself. They're early backgrounds are almost identical. As the orphaned Tom Riddle, Voldemort was raised in a Muggle orphanage; Harry, also orphaned was raised in the home of his Muggle aunt and uncle. Both boys were presumably surprised to learn they were wizards at the age of 11 when the letters came from Hogwarts. There is the parselmouth business. Harry's mother and Riddle's mother each died giving life to their infant sons.

At about the time they arrived at Hogwarts, however, they began to tread very different paths. I wonder how Voldemort learned of his heritage... was it told to him in full after he came to Hogwarts? And did he receive that knowledge malciciously, perceiving it as the ticket to power? A way to pay back all the slights of his life? Could that be the reason Dumbledore has always been so cautious in giving Harry information about his past? The reason for the words "... when he is ready to take it?"

Harry and Voldemort might have been mirror images of each other at birth; yet by the age of 11 they began to become more a photograph and a negative.

phoenixsong

November 21st, 2003, 11:35 pm

Yes and we could extend that theory, you see Voldemorts powers seem to feed of death and Harrys off life itself. So any shadows of the past that may come out of Harrys wand may be of those he has help or saved. A true battle against good and evil. Oooh, Jill, I love this idea. I'm not certain that we'll get a chance to see it, but wouldn't it be lovely if there were actual, visual form to all the wonderful results of Harry's actions? And they would just kick Voldemort's butt, not to mention, as you say, that all the things that come out of Voldie's wand want to kick his butt, too.

The physical components are pretty straightforward here, flesh, blood and bone. Standard components for a body.

But the relationships are fascinating:

Father: The one who gave him life.
Enemy: The one who would take his life
Servant: The one who would lay down his life.

These three combine to restore Voldemort's body. And lets not forget the other component of the relationship between Voldemort and these three elements, i.e. the manner in which they are procured: the bone of the father is unknowingly given (which "renews"), the flesh of the servant is willingly given (which "revives"), and the blood of the enemy is forcibly taken (which "resurrects").

Which means that no matter from Slytherin is there anymore! Salazar Slytherin's blood no longer "flows through his veins"!

So the only remaining heir of Slytherin components are whatever Slytherin-life force resided in the Ugly Baby and whatever Voldemort transferred to Harry and subsequently re-transferred to himself.Well, the "ugly baby" probably does count for something, but I've been arguing all along that Riddle was Slytherin's ideological heir, that this relationship was more important than the genetic relationship. (But then I am also the one who is often found contemplating Harry as Slytherin's heir. Go figure.)

whiz, I agree with you that the Ugly Baby didn't have any SLytherin in him.But then what was that thing? Where did it come from, anyway? This is what Voldie says:...poor wizard though he is, Wormtail was able to follow the instructions I gave him, which would return me to a rudimentary, weak body of my own, a body I would be able to inhabit while awaiting the essential ingredients for true rebirth...a spell or two of my own invention...a little help from my dear Nagini...a potion concocted from unicorn blood, and the snake venom Nagini provided...I was soon returned to an almost human form, and strong enough to travel.It's rather ambiguous "return" him to a body "of his own". Returned as in returning to the state of embodiment, or returned as in returning to some actual matter that belonged to his former self. Can he re-create his own genetic material?

purplehawk

November 21st, 2003, 11:46 pm

Oooh, Jill, I love this idea. I'm not certain that we'll get a chance to see it, but wouldn't it be lovely if there were actual, visual form to all the wonderful results of Harry's actions? And they would just kick Voldemort's butt, not to mention, as you say, that all the things that come out of Voldie's wand want to kick his butt, too.

I like it too and can't wait to see it manifest. We caught a bit of it in GoF, if you'll remember. The priori incantatum effect caused the wands to connect and to vomit up previous spells, once Harry had gained the mastery in their duel, but the fact those "echoes" retained their former characters and actually hissed and cursed Voldemort was, I believe, Harry's power in full force.

And lets not forget the other component of the relationship between Voldemort and these three elements, i.e. the manner in which they are procured: the bone of the father is unknowingly given (which "renews"), the flesh of the servant is willingly given (which "revives"), and the blood of the enemy is forcibly taken (which "resurrects").

Well, the "ugly baby" probably does count for something, but I've been arguing all along that Riddle was Slytherin's ideological heir, that this relationship was more important than the genetic relationship. (But then I am also the one who is often found contemplating Harry as Slytherin's heir. Go figure.)

But then what was that thing? Where did it come from, anyway? This is what Voldie says:It's rather ambiguous "return" him to a body "of his own". Returned as in returning to the state of embodiment, or returned as in returning to some actual matter that belonged to his former self. Can he re-create his own genetic material?

It seems so, Phoenix. Remember he wasn't a ghost (which would be dead), nor was he exactly a disembodied spirit. Even he didn't know what he was, as he told the Death Eaters, except that he could not take shape in a human form. He was still there, however, and very much alive - albeit without a body.

Jessica

November 22nd, 2003, 12:18 am

The physical components are pretty straightforward here, flesh, blood and bone. Standard components for a body.

But the relationships are fascinating:

Father: The one who gave him life.
Enemy: The one who would take his life
Servant: The one who would lay down his life.

These three combine to restore Voldemort's body.

And lets not forget the other component of the relationship between Voldemort and these three elements, i.e. the manner in which they are procured: the bone of the father is unknowingly given (which "renews"), the flesh of the servant is willingly given (which "revives"), and the blood of the enemy is forcibly taken (which "resurrects").?[/QUOTE]

Actually yours works well with mine

Father: The one who gave him life. Father's unknowingly create life all the time. Unless the mother tells them, they can easily remain ignorant of their offspring.
Enemy: The one who would take his life is forced to restore it
Servant: The one who would lay down his life willingly grants it.

Well, the "ugly baby" probably does count for something, but I've been arguing all along that Riddle was Slytherin's ideological heir, that this relationship was more important than the genetic relationship. (But then I am also the one who is often found contemplating Harry as Slytherin's heir. Go figure.)

Ideologically I agree with you. But in the context of the story Tom Riddle says something like "I in whose veins flows the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself". So I think the blood must be important. There are a lot of wizards who agree with Slytherin but none of them were the Heir, none of them openened the Chamber. The blood must be important.

But then what was that thing? Where did it come from, anyway? This is what Voldie says:It's rather ambiguous "return" him to a body "of his own". Returned as in returning to the state of embodiment, or returned as in returning to some actual matter that belonged to his former self. Can he re-create his own genetic material?

I don't know. He obviuosly retains many of his powers, notably the fact taht he is still a Parseltongue. But I think the missing blood is a key element.