"That awful boy" and "her" discussing Dementors [Archive]

thethirdman

November 30th, 2003, 12:30 am

SomeDude

November 30th, 2003, 12:39 am

IF Lily and Petunia's parents were wizards, then why did Snape refer to lily as a Mudblood in the OotP?

But I will say that I considered the option that Petuna also got a letter to hogwarts BUT failed her first year. If you remember in the first book Hermione says that they need to pass their exams to get into the second year and they hoped Goyle would be chucked out!

It could explain Petunia know about the wizarding world and now she just says she heard stuff from lily etc etc.

London_luv89

November 30th, 2003, 12:39 am

So that is why LV hates muggles. He met Petunia......... :rotfl:

It all makes sense now....... :elaugh:

:rotfl: :elaugh: :lol: :agree: :clap: :D oh that's so funny!!!!!

Oo bUMbLE bEE oO

November 30th, 2003, 12:43 am

haha...don't take everything so seriously. I think in the this book, J. K. Rowling just wanted to finalize everything from the previous four books and go more into character development. I doubt that "awful boy" is anybody else but James Potter. Too many people would just drive everyone nuts. :cool: Just my opinion.

thethirdman

November 30th, 2003, 12:44 am

IF Lily and Petunia's parents were wizards, then why did Snape refer to lily as a Mudblood in the OotP?

I forgot about that. If someone had only one Wizard parent would they still be considered a mudblood? Also, isn't Petunia the oldest?

LadyViolet

November 30th, 2003, 12:44 am

Could the "her" not even be Lily? Was Lily mentioned as the "her?" Or are we all just assuming it's her. I've not read the books over again, but I remember Petunia saying that her parents were proud when they found out Lily got accepted to Hogwarts. Could this mean that the Evans family is a Wizarding family? If so, is there a possiblity that Petunia was accepted to Hogwarts and left or was expelled for some reason? It would explain her hatred towards the wizarding world.

I had thought about the part about the "her" not being Lily. Really, with the HP books you really cannot assume anything. If they were purebloods, wouldn't Vernon had noticed something with her parents? I mean, thinking they were magic. Perhaps, then, they were squibs, & that's why they were so happy when Lily got her letter. Thinking of, in the first book (or maybe it was just the movie...) she was kinda resenting towards the thought of Lily getting the letter, so maybe she was a squib,too. If you're goin' with that theory anyways... :D

Masterfroggy

November 30th, 2003, 12:47 am

Or here's a crazy idea I'm going to throw out for fun.

Could the "her" not even be Lily? Was Lily mentioned as the "her?" Or are we all just assuming it's her. I've not read the books over again, but I remember Petunia saying that her parents were proud when they found out Lily got accepted to Hogwarts. Could this mean that the Evans family is a Wizarding family? If so, is there a possiblity that Petunia was accepted to Hogwarts and left or was expelled for some reason? It would explain her hatred towards the wizarding world.

If that far-fetched theory is true, than Petunia could have heard it from any "nasty boy" and any "her" at Hogwarts.

I know the idea's a long shot, but I thought it was worth mentioning even if it's a long shot.

In book One When talking about Lily Patunia call Harry Potters father, Potter
As in
"Then she met that Potter (boy) at school and they left and got married and had you" it comes out as a string of event one after another, as if it all happened very fast,
But when Patunia is talking in Book Five she does not use anyones name, she refers to that awful boy telling her There is no doubt in my mind that the Her is Lily, but from the way it is written, to me it seems as if who every that awful boy is he visited the Evens house before Lily met that Potter (boy) at school and they left and got married

SomeDude

November 30th, 2003, 12:48 am

I forgot about that. If someone had only one Wizard parent would they still be considered a mudblood? Also, isn't Petunia the oldest?

To answer your two questions:

No, you wouldn't be a mudblood.

and

Dont know IF she was the oldest. There is nothing saying she is. For we know, Lily and Petuna could be twins!

cleansweep11

November 30th, 2003, 12:49 am

How does it not fit james???? He(in petunia's eyes) is awefull and he's a guy(guy=boy). Yes it fits any other boy but u got to trust that it does mean james. Petunia doesn't say James or Lily.

thethirdman

November 30th, 2003, 12:50 am

Maybe that nasty boy is someone we have yet to meet. Or maybe it's someone we've already met and don't know it yet? Do we know the aproximate ages on the male Order members? Could it be someone from that bunch that went to school with Lily and knew her well?

cleansweep11

November 30th, 2003, 12:57 am

shawntat

November 30th, 2003, 1:00 am

How does it not fit james???? He(in petunia's eyes) is awefull and he's a guy(guy=boy). Yes it fits any other boy but u got to trust that it does mean james. Petunia doesn't say James or Lily.
This all depends on when it happened. If it happened in Lily's last year at Hogwarts then it could be James if it it happened before it could definately be anyone.

HannahStarr

November 30th, 2003, 1:07 am

cleansweep11

November 30th, 2003, 1:09 am

I don't think so. JKR said they were around 35 and I agree.........there not that old.

SomeDude

November 30th, 2003, 1:09 am

cleansweep11

November 30th, 2003, 1:11 am

Oops.....I meant Lupin and Sirius...........haha......nice catch

HannahStarr

November 30th, 2003, 1:12 am

:lol: I think she means Remus and Snape and Peter. cleansweep, what I meant was, didn't JKR say that the Marauders were 35 during PoA?

cleansweep11

November 30th, 2003, 1:14 am

Like I know.....haha............I dunno.........but I think she meant GoF so they'd be like 36 now.....

HannahStarr

November 30th, 2003, 1:16 am

Hmmm...well, so then they'd be somewhere between 36-37. That's close enough to 40! :lol:

cleansweep11

November 30th, 2003, 1:17 am

haha..................:D

rotsiepots

November 30th, 2003, 1:41 am

hermy_weasley2

November 30th, 2003, 3:18 am

It was James. The Dursleys didn't know about Sirius until Harry told them that he was his convicted murdere/godfather so why would they know about Remus or Peter or Snape or anybody else? And I think if Lily was talking to Voldemort, Petunia wouldn't have described him as a "boy." He'd be too old.

Jill

November 30th, 2003, 3:42 am

I think we have to think of the context in which Petunia overheard "that awful boy" telling her about the Dementors. Personally, I think the converastion between "that awful boy" and her must have occurred in a Muggle setting; Petunia wouldn't have any reason to overhear conversations in the magical world for obvious reasons.

I think we can be more or less entirely confident that her is Lily because Petunia wouldn't have much of an opportunity to overhear many conversations about Dementors between any other witches. Likewise I think "that awful boy" is likely to be James, simply because I can't imagine why Lily would invite anyone else into the Muggle world to be in the same house or setting with her sister and family.

It was James. The Dursleys didn't know about Sirius until Harry told them that he was his convicted murdere/godfather so why would they know about Remus or Peter or Snape or anybody else? And I think if Lily was talking to Voldemort, Petunia wouldn't have described him as a "boy." He'd be too old.

I agree with both of you. Petunia calls James in ss/ps 'then she went and married that Potter boy' and she says this with a lot of diggust in her tone. Petunia also refers to James as being trouble and hard work. So overall the awful boy that would know something about dementors must have been James Potter. It is the only boy that Petunia refers to in and appalled manner. :)

LadyViolet

November 30th, 2003, 4:26 am

Moody's too old............Kingsely............I dno about him but I doubt it.........Remus and Lupin are about 35 according to JKR............Mudungus..........well thats just wrong............and then theres mr weasley.....

Mr. Weasley? That may explain his er...wanting to tell Harry in PoA. He felt it was important...Perhaps he was just being a nice person. :huh: Oh, yes, whoever said that they had to be 'relationshipy' with Lily? 'Cos you're going by age, so it sounds like...oh! At Hogwarts, perhaps they were teachers? But then why would Petunia have called him a 'boy'? I think I'm answering my own questions.

I'm kinda sorry for this pointless post. Do forgive me. :whistle:

cleansweep11

November 30th, 2003, 5:50 am

I was joking....

jordmundt6

November 30th, 2003, 4:57 pm

Rotsie--I might be okay with this except that the ice didn't even begin to thaw between Lily and James until their sixth year and they didn't start going out until 7th year. Accepting that this took place in a Muggle setting, James would already have been an adult by the time Petunia would have had the opportunity to hear him say anything and she's only a couple years older than her sister. She wouldn't have called an adult "that awful boy" and before 7th year Lily & James were barely friends, she wouldn't have brought him to her house back then. If it can't have been him or any of the Marauders, who does that leave in Lily's year who's rather surly with strangers and physically unpreposssessing? Answer: Severus Snape or unknown troubled guy we haven't met yet.

cleansweep11

November 30th, 2003, 6:58 pm

People call guys in there year 20's late teens boy's. They also call them kids. Its resonable to think that she's talking about james. In fact i'm 100% sure she is.

Masterfroggy

November 30th, 2003, 9:51 pm

People call guys in there year 20's late teens boy's. They also call them kids. Its resonable to think that she's talking about james. In fact i'm 100% sure she is.

Taking Patunia's age to be with in a few years of her sister Lily.

At the time of the "awful boy" meeting I doubt that she would call a young man in his twenties "Boy", she would have said that "horrible man" or that "nasty wizard".

Now in my mind the meeting was likely to have been when she(Lily) was younger, and a younger Lily brought home a wizarding male (boy)-friend / boyfriend. We know that James and Lily did not start to go out until late in their schooling, therefore QED that awful boy can not be James

(The QED is my attempt at a school-ish joke, as everyone else it pointing out that theirs is the only possible solution I thought I would join in)

cleansweep11

November 30th, 2003, 9:55 pm

Yes but Petunia is older then lily(presumably) and James probley told lily when they were 17(thats when they get out of school) or maybe even 16. They're still kids at that age and James is still a boy.

Masterfroggy

November 30th, 2003, 9:58 pm

Not really, as that would imply that Petunia thought of herself as a child as well, Harry and Dudley are nearly the same age, Petunia and Lily could be with in 18 months of each other in age, to close to each other in age to think of one as an adult and the other a child,

cleansweep11

November 30th, 2003, 10:04 pm

Ok think of it this way. If your 5 and you see a 5 year old boy are you going to call him a man or a boy. A boy. But that means ur calling your self a kid. Oh wait. You are.

rotsiepots

November 30th, 2003, 10:31 pm

Masterfroggy

November 30th, 2003, 10:53 pm

Petunia also has the benefit of hindsight, though, when referring to "that awful boy". She might not have thought of whoever it was as a "boy" at the time, however, given that she's now in her mid to late thirties she can probably use the term "boy" to apply to someone in their late teens.

Lily and James were married by the time they were 20-ish, so it's quite likely that a teenage James visited the Evans family.

Otherwise, Petunia could be using "boy" in that patronising way that people used to refer to their servants as in Victorian times. ;)

I can accept all this, as being possible, but why did she change from calling him that "Potter boy" to calling him that "awful boy" As I posted before, the events involving that Potter Boy came out in a rush, met, left school, married, had baby Harry, there was hardly space to breathe the way it is written, I am yet to be convinced that the time scale allowed for more than a few months between leaving school and marriage.

On the other hand he would have to meet the FIL (future-in-laws) so it might have visited the Evans a few times, and that might be where the Awful boy comes in. If Petunia was single (no brainer) and her baby sister came home with a nice boy, then the pressure would be on to find herself a suitable man or any man so she rushes out and…. (Lets leave it, there as the picture of Petunia courting Vernon has given me an upset stomach)

Jill

December 1st, 2003, 12:22 am

Petunia may have know James before Lily started to court him. Lily and James went to the same school, perhaps they where friends like Hermione is to Harry. Petunia might say awful boy because James did not appear to be the nice boy when he was picking on Snape. James was also known as a big head and well Petunia strikes me as a person who does not like people who have a higher status than her own.

I might even go as far as say that perhaps Petunia was a witch going to Hogwarts for the first 5 years but failed all her exams. Perhaps that is why she states, 'mother was so proud, why we have a witch in the family', Lily being the witch who past her 5th year exams and was accepted back at school for the 6th and 7th years. It only stated that Lily got her papers, it did not say what papers, they could have been her exam pass papers that certified her as a witch.

I was always under the impression that you could not do magic, nor where you deamed a witch or wizard unless you past those 5th year exams. So maybe Petunia saw James on a first hand experience, maybe she was jealous of her sister liking and talking about such a boy. I am not saying that Petunia was in the same year as Lily but Lily may have joined Hogwarts when Petunia was in her 3rd or 4th year.

Petunia may have change her opinion a little as she grew away from the school and when it came to the crunch and Lily was courting James, perhaps she still called him Potter boy because after the 5th year James change in personality because of Lily. James then joined the order and became a more respectful wizard, so it would have looked odd if Lily went around calling him an awful boy when he was helping the order. So she called him Potter boy instead.

jordmundt6

December 1st, 2003, 3:43 am

Jill

December 1st, 2003, 3:57 am

Jill--Up through halfway through OotP I'd have been an advocate of the Lily & James were school buddies theory. But the Pensieve memory shows us they obviously were not in spite of James' desire to change that. The ice didn't begin to thaw between them until their sixth year and they didn't start going out until seventh year. Again, unless Petunia is self-obliviating, there's precious little evidence that she could ever possibly have been a student at Hogwarts. Whoever "that awful boy" was--she met him or spied on him when he visited the Evans home and I think she'd have described James differently had they all been of age when they met. This suggests a boy who had reason to know about Azkaban visiting Lily relatively early in her school career. It can't possibly have been any of the marauders.

Interesting side note--Lucius Malfoy WAS still in school when Snape and the Marauders first came. Being about five years older than they were, he should have been in fourth or fifth year when they were all "ickle firsties."

Interesting side note indeed. Are you saying that Lucius Malfoy might have bullied Lily because of her blood line, just like Malfoy bullies Hermione. It might also explain why Snape acts out the way he does because Snape and Lucius may have become mates or at least Lucius may have given Snape bad influences. Now how would Petunia know about Lucius and Lilys upset. If Lucius was a 5th year then perhaps this also fits with the theory that Petunia was a 5th year too at Hogwarts too but did not pass her exams and therefore could not get her official papers stating that she is a witch. This might re-enforce the reason behind Petunia saying that awful boy because perhaps Lucius picked on Petunia and Lily as they came from the same family. In fact Lucius would have picked on Petunia more because she would have been at the school longer than her sister. Maybe Luciuses comments and the way he treated both Lily and Petunia made her leave Hogwarts before the exams came up in her 5th year or perhaps fail her exams because of all the taunts.

This might explain why Petunia thinks that all wizards and witches are freaks because she is compairing them to Lucius and perhaps Snape and the maurders, which lets face it the maurders where no little sweet hearts.

jordmundt6

December 2nd, 2003, 12:27 am

Y'know I think they have two types of classes. NEWT-prep and OWL flunkers. Both get diplomas if they finish out seven years, but you get shunted on career paths. As for Petunia being a witch who made it all the way to fifth year--if that's true, she's been willfully self-obliviating or her idiocy about most things magical is totally inexplicable or the best acting job in the world. And she's not that good at acting.

Skylark

December 2nd, 2003, 12:52 am

Being American, I'm not too clear or familiar about the various levels of English education, but I don't think Petunia ever went to Hogwarts...or if she did, she didn't make it that far. I definately think she could have been a squib-but that would neg the whole Lily is a mudblood thing-unless the Evanses were squibs who got married and chose to live as muggles.

As for James at 17 being too old to be referred to as "that awful boy", I completely disagree. I'm almost 19, I have three much older sisters. Ok, if I brought a boy home to meet my family-they would refer to him exactly like that-he's a boy I'm bringing home-he's a guy, a young man certainly-but my family would never refer to him (especially in retrospect) as an "awful man". It doesn't sound right. It sounds gross to be honest. I might be legally an adult, but I'm still a teen, as would probably be my boyfriend. All the people I know refer to teens and even some people in their early 20's as girls and boys(or guys), especially in the dating sense of the word.

I'm not opposed to the idea that the "awful boy" being described could be someone other than James, but I just think James is the most obvious choice. Plus, I've always envisioned that if James did visit the Evans home, he would probably try to be polite (in order to impress the folks) and completely screw up a la the Weasleys with the Dursleys, simply due to his misunderstanding of muggle ways. I could see him trying to use magic to fix or clean something and have it completely backfire-and we all know how absolutely appauled that would leave Petunia. And this scenario is assuming that James is putting aside his prankster ways in order to impress Lily. Knowing him, he could have easily tried to trick or torment Petunia especially if he saw or heard her being cruel to Lily or the wizarding race in general. So it's easy putting Petunia and James' personalities together to see why she would call him "that awful boy"

..and I just wrote way more than I intended.... :blush:

Masterfroggy

December 2nd, 2003, 1:27 am

Being American, I'm not too clear or familiar about the various levels of English education, but I don't think Petunia ever went to Hogwarts...or if she did, she didn't make it that far. I definately think she could have been a squib-but that would neg the whole Lily is a mudblood thing-unless the Evanses were squibs who got married and chose to live as muggles.
:

Skylark You are an Angel (sorry I hope you don't mind, but your post sparked something in my mind that has been bothering me and you sorted it out)

Petunia is a dyed in the wool Muggle she has not one jot of magic in her she never went to Hogwarts, and why am I so sure,
Because she would if she could, but she cannot so, she doesn't. (My mothers third favourite saying)

Hagrid was chucked out of school, but he can do magic, and he does, magic is and ability, it's not something that the school can teach, if it not there in the first place.

That is why Petunia hates magic, she was jealous of Lily because Lily could do it, she got the letter, she was the one coming home from school at the holidays, and Petunia has to stay at home, go to a middle class muggle school, marry a middle class muggle man.

That is why she refers to that awful boy, no doubt he performed some minor magic trick, that had the rest of the Evans, doing the "happy clappy" dance around him, telling him what a nice boy he was, and wasn't Lily lucky that she met such a nice boy and Petunia is sat in the corner with Vernon eating their sandwiches with the crust cut off, forgotten and ignored.

Lily would graciously come and see if they were alright, and that unwittingly would make Petunia hate them both even more, because Petunia would know deep in her heart, that were the roles reversed, Petunia would not even notice her sister she would be milking the parental adulation for all its worth. Some where in the almost frozen heart Petunia knows just who was the better sister, daughter, mother.

I know for sure that is why Petunia feels that Lily got what she deserved for marrying a wizard instead of a safe boy, and that is why she wants everything to be normal and Vernon to be successful, in a normal way.

..and I just wrote way more than I intended.... :blush:

Sorry so have I :blush:

SnowyOwl

December 2nd, 2003, 9:33 pm

Consider that red herrings are vintage JKR. Take a look at the sneakascopes in book 4. They accurately clued us in to what was really happening, but they were accompanied by a logical (and misleading) interpretation. I think this case (and the Quibbler articles) illustrate that same device. We have Petunia's ambiguous statement followed by Harry's misleading (?)interpretation.

For my part, I agree with several of you that state that you are almost positive the "her" is Lily. That's really not that difficult for most of us to believe. The thing is, because that answer leaps to the mind it strengthens Harry's interpretation and makes it easier for the reader not to question the other part. I think it should be questioned. I don't think it is James. I also think there are other scenarios where Petunia could overhear such a conversation. The going theory is that it was at the Evan's house, but it could just as easily been at Kings Cross station. I'm sure not all Muggles are as quick to leave as the Dursleys are.

Skylark

December 2nd, 2003, 9:50 pm

I'm not 100% positive the "awful boy" was James. In fact, I would love it if it wasn't. I love JK Rowling's red herrings and little plot tricks and twists. The idea of it being someone else actually makes Petunia more interesting. It opens up more about her involvement with the wizarding world. I've always thought Petunia knew more than she was letting on. Also, I've always figured that she was jealous of Lily and her abilities. I mean, the way in book one that she describes Lily (and James) says it all. "My perfect sister being who she was." (I think that's the quote...don't have my book :shrug: ) But, we all know from the get go, witch or not, Lily was a traditionally more beautiful and likable character. Anyhoo....part of Petunia's hatred for the wizarding world must come from her inabilty to physically partake in it. And I'm sure the girl must have overheard a lot more than just dementor stories.

Plus, going back to Petunia some more, she understands the danger of Voldemort's reappearance. I'm convinced LV killed James and Lily's parents. I just am. As a means of scare tactics or what....it just always seemed most plausible considering the times, who James and Lily were (Harry put aside, they were big members in the order and thorns in LV's side-they defied him thrice), and the fact that since James and Lily were really young at the time the parents shouldn't have been that old or ill, and it's unlikely all four of them died of natural causes between the time the kids were at Hogwarts (and afterwards-Sirius mentioned visiting James' parents post graduation) and the time James and Lily were killed. We know they were dead then because Petunia and Vernon were Harry's only living reletives. That's supposed to be a three to four year period max, I believe. I mean, it's definately possible four grandparents of a kid will pass away in a short time (mine did) but usually they're noticably ill or elderly (which all of mine were) So....my gut tells me LV and his DE's knocked the older Potters and Evanses off.

Oh, and Masterfroggy...that's very sweet of you. :) :blush:

GryffindorSeeker

December 2nd, 2003, 11:45 pm

I think it's James. He wouldn't be too old to call "that boy". *grins* I call them boys until they are at least 23. But it would be interesting to see who it was if it wasn't James.

Nys

February 16th, 2004, 6:35 am

My thoughts are that Petunia and Lilly had a brother and it was their brother and Lilly that were talking about the dementors.

My theory is that Mark Evens is Harry's cousin and his father was a deatheater who has now changed back to the good side. But at the time of James and Lilly's death he was 'dead' to Lilly and thereby Dumbledore may not know about him or was purely going by Lilly's wishes. She had disowned her brother so the only living relative of Lilly was Petunia.

I think the real issue that should be discussed is how would Lilly know about Dementors that is if it was her that was telling Petunia about Dementors.

Lilly came from a family situation similar to that of Harry's. She didn't know about the wizzard world and thereby wouldn't grow up knowing about Dementors like Ron. The only reason that Harry learned about them was because they came to guard Hogwarts from Sirius.

Though the other point that comes to mind is that you would think that Voldie had some amount of time at power, probably during Lilly and James' school time. In which case they would have been on Voldie's side and not guarding Azkaban!

These are just ramblings but I hope you can get some of my main thoughts and comment on them. :eyebrows:

Kaonashi

February 16th, 2004, 7:43 am

I'm not so sure if it was James either, even though you would want to lean towards that conclusion, seeing how they later got married. James hated the Dark Arts and everything they stood for, and dementors are Dark Creatures, so I can't see him just talking about dementors to Lily for any paticular reason. Lily was pretty popular, so it could have been anyone. Also, Petunia does not state exactly WHERE this conversation took place, just that it did. If it was at their home, it might have been James, but this conversation could have taken place anywhere, and she overheard it. It might have even been at the train station while dropping Lily off for school. I can picture Snape walking up to her in that context and saying something nasty about dementors going after mudbloods just to **** her off, and then describing their effects in a way that Petunia would remember them, even years later.

Nys

February 17th, 2004, 6:44 am

I can picture Snape walking up to her in that context and saying something nasty about dementors going after mudbloods just to **** her off, and then describing their effects in a way that Petunia would remember them, even years later.

But Petunia said that she heard them discussing them, Snape coming up and tormenting Lilly about them couldn't be construed as being a discussion. What could though is Lilly and her brother (see my thoughts above) talking about them, or it could be James though at the age that he would have met Petunia he would hardly be called a boy.

Though we could be missing the obvious thing of maybe Petunia lied when she said she had learned about them by "hearing her and that boy talk about them" and maybe she learnt about them another way.

Lupin_Lady

February 17th, 2004, 9:08 am

I think that there's more to Petunia than meets the eye. She showed in OOTP that she has knowledge of the Wizard world.
I recon that she's a witch, but chooses to remain unknown, or unregistered, as it says in OOTP that there's no witches in Harry's area.
She would therefore know James and the others as she spent some time at Hogwarts. (she may not have finished).
It would explain her biased if she were a hopeless witch.
Maybe James and his friends teased her, hence the 'horrible boy' or she thinks he is responsible for Lily's death.

Furienna

February 17th, 2004, 12:06 pm

A 17 or 18 years old male can sure be called a boy, and even more so when you talk about things that happened when he was 17, 18 almost two decades later. You can be called boy or girl at least til you're in 20ish. And if it wasn't James, who would it be, especially if it happened in the Evans home? Lily would hardly invite let's say Snape to her home, would she? And hardly any other marauder either. But a boyfriend, she could very likely have invited to her home. OK, let's say it was somewher else. Then, it could have been any wizard boy. Or let's say that it was earlier in Lily's life? But we don't know how old Lily was then. Neither do we know if the boy is James, and we don't know if the her is Lily either. However, Lily and James are the most likely choices, and if it was another boy than James or another her than Lily, I hope JKR lets us know so.

seeker

February 17th, 2004, 3:00 pm

Yes, Petunia could be referring to an adult James as a boy, considering that she is now much older than he was at the time
My problem with it being James is that for Petunia to understand the conversation, which sounds as if it was overheard, James would have to be telling Lily what dementors are, not just talking about them. It seems to me that a sixteen year old witch, which is the youngest Lily could have been at the time, based on her relationship with James in Snape's memory, would not have to be told what dementors are. She had been growing up for several years in a wizarding world dominated by Voldemort; wouldn't she have heard of people being sent to Azkaban and learned about dementors that way? So I think the discussion occurred a few years earlier.
Think about it: The way the passage is written follows JKR's pattern of hiding things, giving a plausible but incorrect explanation so that we don't think about something strange. For example, think of the time after Lupin saw the moon boggart and then someone wondered why Lupin was scared of crystal balls. A plausible solution, yet wrong. This seems the same. We don't think of the "awful boy" because Harry immediately assumes it to be his father.
The most likely candidate, in my mind, is Lupin. From what we know of his character, he is the person of around that age most likely to have been friends with Lily before the rest of the marauders.

Puffskein

February 17th, 2004, 3:50 pm

I don't see a problem with the "boy" reference. I'm nearly 22 and while I don't really think of males my age as "boys", it seems odd to call them "men". I'm more likely to say "guy" or even "bloke", but I can't imagine Petunia using either word, so I can easily think of her calling a young man she looked down on, a "boy".

My problem with it being James is that for Petunia to understand the conversation, which sounds as if it was overheard, James would have to be telling Lily what dementors are, not just talking about them.

I don't remember the exact extract, but it's possible that James/Lily noticed Petunia snooping and told her what they were talking about in an effort to be friendly. I automatically assumed Petunia meant James when I first read the book, but I'm keeping an open mind that it could have been someone else.

Navy Blues

February 18th, 2004, 5:00 am

First, I'd like to say thankyou to Skylark, for a series of intelligent posts. This has to be more than meets the eye, simply because of the way it is written. Rowling could easily have made it explicit that Petunia was talking about Lily and James, but she did not do so. That, to me, makes it a pretty good chance that she is not talking about Lily and James. Modified: I think she is talking about Lily but not James. "That awful boy" could be anyone, of any age (there are many women who will describe any man who behaves immaturely as a "boy", even if he is in his fifties). "Her", in that tone, strikes me as being Lily - I can think of no other "her" we have yet met who could stand in that way to Petunia.

Nys

February 18th, 2004, 5:36 am

Petunia could still have been lieing about how she knew. It sounds to me like she meant for people i.e Vernon to think she meant her sister and her husband but she might have learnt about them another way.

Furienna

February 18th, 2004, 1:24 pm

I just thought about that too. Maybe Petunia told a lie about how she knew about dementors.

Otherwise, Harry lived óne and a half year in the wizard world before he got to know what Azkaban was and two years before he knew what dementors was. Though it was a dark time, Lily might not have known about dementors until James told her about them when they allready had started dating. There might not have been a need for that, and she might not have been interested in Azkaban and then even less in its guards. Or maybe, Petunia walked into a room when James told Lily something like "Well, you know, they have sent dementors to search for death eaters all over the country", Petunia asked "What's a dementor?" (it wouldn't like her, but it could have happened, she might have known allready then that Voldemort and the death eaters were dangerous), and then, they explained it to her, and then years later, she described it as him "telling" her about it. But only JKR knows...

SeverusSnape

February 18th, 2004, 6:34 pm

The "her" is pretty much most definately Lily. But the "him" could be anyone. It might not of been James. We don't know exactly when Petunia first met James. It could have been after Hogwarts. It could have been during. Lily could of even had another boyfriend (and probably did) and maybe he came over to visit during the holidays. Maybe James and his friends even came over for a visit during the holidays.

Anything is possible and you can't rule out anything. I mean, who would of guessed that Mrs. Figg was a squib? (before the end of the fourth book i mean) When you first heard of Sirius black and heard that he was saying, "He's at Hogwarts," in his sleep, you probably all assumed that he was talking about Harry. But he was talking about a pet rat. Meaning that anything is possible so you people that are saying that it HAS to be James...just stop...because it doesnt have to be anyone.

JadeDragon

February 18th, 2004, 7:27 pm

Nys

February 19th, 2004, 12:45 pm

Yeah I always had the impression that the Dementors went to Azkaban after Voldie tried to kill Harry.

drifting.shadow

February 19th, 2004, 1:23 pm

giantsquid28

February 19th, 2004, 7:52 pm

petunia probably lied, i think that dumbledore must have told her, she like harry probably felt deprived of information so dumbledore came and told her everything she needed to know, afterall she is related to harry so they are bound to have something in common

DD is old enough to be her great-grandfather. I doubt that she would ever call him a boy. I still think that "awful" boy is James. Just because he wasn't going with Lily doesn't mean that they didn't become friends first. He might have visited her at her house the summer before 7th year and might have just said something about them in passing. Petunia being the nosy person she is, was probably listening in on their conversation and that is how she heard. I agree with whoever stated that the dementors might not have taken over Azkaban until after LV's fall because they were really necessary with all of the dark wizards in there.

SnorkackCatcher

February 19th, 2004, 10:49 pm

Think about it: The way the passage is written follows JKR's pattern of hiding things, giving a plausible but incorrect explanation so that we don't think about something strange.

That's the best argument for it not being James and/or Lily, but it's hard to imagine who else Petunia would be listening to. It could simply have been meant to suggest that she still can't bring herself to talk about Lily and James, either because she hated her sister, or because she loved her deep down and blamed James for getting her into danger.

Nys

February 20th, 2004, 12:15 am

The point that several people are trying to make is that maybe Petunia was lieing when she said that she overheard her and that boy talking. Which is highly plausable! It is said simply so that people like the readers and Vernon in particular think that she means her sister and James. But she might be telling an out and out lie and have found out another way.

lxs234

February 20th, 2004, 12:58 am

I really think that there was a possibility that she was talking to Lucius Malfoy. I have this weird theory that Peutunia went to Hogwarts, got a crush on Lucius Malfoy, and left school when she found out she couldn't marry him because she was a mudblood.

Raven

February 20th, 2004, 3:57 am

In book One When talking about Lily Patunia call Harry Potters father, Potter
As in
"Then she met that Potter (boy) at school and they left and got married and had you" it comes out as a string of event one after another, as if it all happened very fast,
But when Patunia is talking in Book Five she does not use anyones name, she refers to that awful boy telling her There is no doubt in my mind that the Her is Lily, but from the way it is written, to me it seems as if who every that awful boy is he visited the Evens house before Lily met that Potter (boy) at school and they left and got married
reading even deeper, why would Petunia say, "[T]hen they left..."

From where would they leave? Seems like the correct word there would be "went" as in, "and they went and got married and had you." JKR is so precise about language, and she has thought this story out so thoroughly, that something tells me she is evading something here.

giantsquid28

February 20th, 2004, 4:31 am

Good catch Raven! :clap:

seeker

February 20th, 2004, 3:52 pm

Another interesting question raised by some language in the early books is how well - and how recently Petunia and Vernon knew Lily and James. Did Petunia ever meet James, or was she out of the house and out of contact with her sister by the time they began dating? Did Vernon meet either one of them? I mean, in PS/SS, the narration from Vernon's POV indicates that the sisters haven't seen each other "for several years." Yet Petunia knows the name of Lily's child born little over a year earlier - implying some contact. Also, it says "she and her husband knew very well what the Dursleys thought of them and their kind." This seems like an odd statement if there had been no contact between the two couples since Lily and Petunia stopped speaking "several years" earlier, at which point Lily and James would likely have not even been married.
Topic? Another reason that "the awful boy" is probably not James is that there would be no reason for Petunia to feel ashamed of hearing a discussion between Lily and James. Vernon knows that Lily and James exist, and knows that Lily and Petunia lived under one roof during at least part of the Hogwarts years. Why would it be weird for Petunia to know at least a little bit about magic? I mean, Vernon has just asked Harry what dementors are; surely it would't be shocking to him to find that his wife asked her sister and her boyfriend the same question some twenty years earlier. No, it has to be someone else, because Petunia wouldn't want Vernon to know that her acquaintance with the wizarding world went any further than he currently believes.

JadeDragon

February 21st, 2004, 2:46 am

Well, the most obvious answer to that question is the taint by association with magic. Petunia shouldn't even imply an interest in that "unnatural" world. How could she admit to being interested enough to eavesdrop/overhear/listen in?

Petunia also goes a long stretch in the early texts about how worthless James Potter is and how he was a bad influence on her sister/ passed bad genes to Harry and whatnot. This seems to suggest she has at least met him, to me. We won't know for sure until JKR tells us, I guess.

Nys

February 24th, 2004, 4:02 am

if only she'd hurry up and tell us!!!!!

harp230

February 24th, 2004, 4:41 am

Well, the most obvious answer to that question is the taint by association with magic. Petunia shouldn't even imply an interest in that "unnatural" world. How could she admit to being interested enough to eavesdrop/overhear/listen in? Mu suspicion is that she is lying. It is just some cover story for what really happened. While she is definately would listen in on a conversation between the two of them, it just doesn't seem too add up. Why would she remember that information all of these years? Harry even seems doubtful of this story. He is amazed she remember this information and even categorizes his aunt with Mrs. figg. Not that i am saying that Petunia is a squib, just that she has "involvement" with the wizarding world. Besides, why would Petunia actually believe these dementors exist just by overhearing a conversation, between two people she probally would not believe anyway?
Petunia also goes a long stretch in the early texts about how worthless James Potter is and how he was a bad influence on her sister/ passed bad genes to Harry and whatnot. This seems to suggest she has at least met him, to me. We won't know for sure until JKR tells us, I guess.The comments you are thinking of are made by Aunt Marge;)

Siriusly_Addicted

February 25th, 2004, 1:51 am

I think the dementors were not in charge of Azkaban until after they followed Voldemort in his reign of terror, but my information may be lacking. If this is the case, it seems plausible enough that the "boy" is James, and he might be describing what the dementors are doing while in service to LV. They might not have been as well known as they are now.

You know, that's a good point. DD has specifically said (and I think LV did also) that the Dementors worked for LV the last time. They would not have gone to work for the Ministry until after LV was gone, which would have been after LV attacked Harry. That means they would not have been guarding Azkaban when James and Lily were dating. That leaves a few options, I think:

1. Petunia is lying, as several posters have already suggested.

2. The Dementors guarded Azkaban before LV's original rise to power and they left the Ministry to join him the last time around, too. Petunia could have heard people discussing this when she was a child - possibly the Evans family knew a wizarding family when Lily and Petunia were children? That would explain the "her" and "awful boy" if the talkers were Lily and another child. If the Dementors had left Azkaban to join LV, I imagine it would have been just as newsworthy before as it was at the end of OotP - it could have been easy to overhear people talking about it.

3. Petunia is still in touch with someone in the magical world and overheard people talking about the Dementors' assignment to guard Azkaban after LV's departure for sunny Albania. This would have happened after Harry came to live with her and Vernon, but it would also mean that "her" and the "awful boy" couldn't possibly be Lily and James.

I've always been in doubt that Petunia was referring to James, and maybe not even to Lily, just because of the way that sentence was worded. It wouldn't be the first time JKR has written something ambiguous, followed by an assumption by Harry that we (or some of us) accepted without question. Petunia never said it was Lily and James, Harry just assumed that was who she meant. If she knows other people in the wizarding world, she surely won't want Vernon to find out about it. She would choose her words a little more carefully, thus the lack of specific names.

giantsquid28

February 28th, 2004, 8:05 pm

2. The Dementors guarded Azkaban before LV's original rise to power and they left the Ministry to join him the last time around, too. Petunia could have heard people discussing this when she was a child - possibly the Evans family knew a wizarding family when Lily and Petunia were children? That would explain the "her" and "awful boy" if the talkers were Lily and another child. If the Dementors had left Azkaban to join LV, I imagine it would have been just as newsworthy before as it was at the end of OotP - it could have been easy to overhear people talking about it.

This might explain the part about Lily's and Petunia's parents being proud of having a witch in the family. It would mean that they had known about the magical community. Question: what about the statute of secrecy? Did this wizarding family openly flaunt the decree? Did they know that Lily would be getting a letter and wanted to get the family prepared for it?

I've always been in doubt that Petunia was referring to James, and maybe not even to Lily, just because of the way that sentence was worded. It wouldn't be the first time JKR has written something ambiguous, followed by an assumption by Harry that we (or some of us) accepted without question. Petunia never said it was Lily and James, Harry just assumed that was who she meant. If she knows other people in the wizarding world, she surely won't want Vernon to find out about it. She would choose her words a little more carefully, thus the lack of specific names.

Point well taken.

minitink

March 1st, 2004, 4:24 am

Everyone here seems to be assuming that JKR is implying that the her is lily and that awful boy is james. But right after Petunia says this, Harry says " 'If you mean my mum and dad, why dont you use their names?' said harry loudly, but Aunt Petunia ignored him. She seemed horribly flustered". I dont know about the rest of you, but that screams of the classic tactic writers use to show that a character is hiding something. Whenever a character is asked a question and they ignore it, it usually means that the obvious should not be assumed. In this case, since harry says that and petunia ignores him and looks flustered, it would mean that she isnt talking about his parents. And as you all love to point out, JK is very particular with her words. She had harry say "my mum and dad" instead of "my parents" which probably means that petunia wasnt referring to either his mum or dad.
My theory is that Petunia heard it somewhere else.There are tons of possibilities as to where. She could be a squib and therefore have heard it from her parents wizards friends, or maybe she did go to hogwarts, heard it there, but later dropped out or failed. There are other possibilities, but I think these are the most obvious. Also, JK says that one of the characters will o magick late in life. Maybe this character is petunia.

giantsquid28

March 1st, 2004, 4:31 am

My theory is that Petunia heard it somewhere else.There are tons of possibilities as to where. She could be a squib and therefore have heard it from her parents wizards friends, or maybe she did go to hogwarts, heard it there, but later dropped out or failed. There are other possibilities, but I think these are the most obvious. Also, JK says that one of the characters will o magick late in life. Maybe this character is petunia.

The problem with the theory that Petunia is a squib is her parents. Squibs are non-magical children born to magical parents. If her parents were magical, than Snape couldn't have called Lily a mudblood in the pensieve scene.

minitink

March 1st, 2004, 5:20 am

The problem with the theory that Petunia is a squib is her parents. Squibs are non-magical children born to magical parents. If her parents were magical, than Snape couldn't have called Lily a mudblood in the pensieve scene.

Maybe her parents were squibs as well. We know very little about Lily's family. Her parents being squibs could be a big reason for them being so proud of Lily being a witch and Petunia being so resentful and bitter. Would you be considered a mudblood if your parents were squibs?

giantsquid28

March 1st, 2004, 5:23 am

Maybe her parents were squibs as well. We know very little about Lily's family. Her parents being squibs could be a big reason for them being so proud of Lily being a witch and Petunia being so resentful and bitter. Would you be considered a mudblood if your parents were squibs?

I don't think so. Lily was considered a mudblood, so I think that means that her parent's couldn't be squibs.

minitink

March 2nd, 2004, 3:07 am

I don't think so. Lily was considered a mudblood, so I think that means that her parent's couldn't be squibs.

I just wemt scouring through my HP books and found Hermiones definition of what a mudblood is. A mudblood is a really dirty name for a magical person born to unmagical parents. Squibs are unmagical. Technically, the child of squibs would be a mudblood. JK is very specific with her wording and if she meant a mudblood was the child of muggles, then she would have had hermione say that is was someone born to muggle parents, not nonmagical ones.

RubberSoul

March 4th, 2004, 12:29 am

Everyone here seems to be assuming that JKR is implying that the her is lily and that awful boy is james. But right after Petunia says this, Harry says " 'If you mean my mum and dad, why dont you use their names?' said harry loudly, but Aunt Petunia ignored him. She seemed horribly flustered". I dont know about the rest of you, but that screams of the classic tactic writers use to show that a character is hiding something. Whenever a character is asked a question and they ignore it, it usually means that the obvious should not be assumed.

Good catch.:)

I was always mystified about Aunt Petunia saying "that awful boy, implying either that she and Uncle Vernon had discussed him not too long ago so he is still fresh on their minds, or that it is someone they consider so awful that they'll know who they mean when they speak of him. Because of that, I would say that this boy is James. If we're assuming that her=Lily, and Lily and James were a couple, who else would Petunia refer to as "that awful boy"? Lily and James were like two halves of a whole to her. You couldn't mention one without mentioning the other.

minitink

March 4th, 2004, 3:08 am

But the thing is, if petunia were reffering to some else, do you really think she'd admit it? I mean, Vernon hates anything wizard so petunia sure wouldnt give him any reason to think that she had any connection to the magical world other than her sister. And if what you say is true about petunia and vernon discussing this person, why would they be discussing them in the first place? They usually avoid all topics that would lead to the magical world. As for maybe the person was considered so awful they both knew who she was talking about, why didnt petunia reffer to him in this way before? Not to mention the fact that whenever petunia used to bring up his parents, she treated them as a unit, not separate people.

RubberSoul

March 4th, 2004, 3:29 am

As for maybe the person was considered so awful they both knew who she was talking about, why didnt petunia reffer to him in this way before?

Well, that's why it would have made sense for it to be James, because she's practically called James "that awful boy" before...it was "that Potter" in PS. And if we compare the two circumstances, which are the only two in which we ever hear her mention James, they are similar. She's revealing something both times, is in a slightly hysterical frame of mind, and seems to be feeling especially bitter mainly against two people.

minitink

March 4th, 2004, 4:01 am

Yeah, but "that Potter" is a lot more specific than "that awful boy". Plus the fact that she ignores harry and looks "horribly flustered" when harry tells her if shes talking about his parents then why doesnt she say their names.

Furienna

March 6th, 2004, 9:34 am

And she could just be lying. She could just have made it sound like it was Harry's parents she heard about dementors from, but it wasn't. However, it is hard to inmagine which other magical person she would have had contact with...

whizbang121

June 19th, 2004, 1:03 am

In the Mar 4 interview that Lupin is a half blood. We've been told that Lily is a muggleborn. I wonder if they knew each other outside the wizard world and maybe Lupin was the awful boy.

nightingale

June 19th, 2004, 3:09 am

I still think it's James. I don't know, it just seems to fit that he's "that awful boy", the one Lily married, and then they were awful together.

Saol

June 19th, 2004, 3:28 am

That'd be cool if it wasn't James.. perhaps Lupin? That'd be awesome.. highly unlikely though. I don't know.. I don't think it's someone else. We all know Petunia never liked James (I think) because you know, he's a wizard. I think that she's refering to James and Lily, but prefers not to use their names. But it could be someone else..

whizbang121

June 25th, 2004, 9:36 pm

bump

harripottrfreek

June 26th, 2004, 2:19 am

So that is why LV hates muggles. He met Petunia......... :rotfl:

It all makes sense now....... :elaugh:

if this isn't the answer then i dont know what is...hehe

no i think that she is still referring to james and lily...she was in a state of shock and had already said something she didn't want to say (what dementors were) and didnt feel like adding more wood to the fire. but then there is how harry asked about it that could change it, but for now i am sticking with lily and james...i dont know who else petunia would be talking about.

Gwenog Jones

June 26th, 2004, 2:38 am

So that is why LV hates muggles. He met Petunia......... :rotfl:

It all makes sense now....... :elaugh:

haha.. thats funny :rotfl:

There is a chance that she was not referring to Lily and James, but I think she was.

whizbang121

June 26th, 2004, 7:37 am

I'm wondering if it was Lupin. Lupin, we were told in the March interview, is a half blood. Then there's the scene on the bridge in the movie. I'm assuming that JKR sees the scripts and need to approve.
So, I wonder if muggleborn Lily and Remus knew each other outside of Hogwarts, in the muggle world. Perhaps they were neighbors or went to elementary school together.

Furienna

June 28th, 2004, 7:35 pm

I'm still saying that she could have made up a cover up story because she didn't want anyone to know how she really knew about dementors and Azkaban.

Charly tha girl

July 6th, 2004, 12:19 pm

I have just started reading OotP again, and I find it quite clear that it is not certain that this 'awful boy' is James. Although I do think 'her' is Lily.
Maybe 'awful' is more related to the actual appearance of this person.... Snape?
I have been reading some threads about Snape being 'Perseus Evans' and Mark Evans being a relative of Lily/Petunia.
My theory is that Snape is a relative of Lily (more cousin-like than brother-like), but that for some reason the family couldn't get along. (I read somewhere that the parents of mudbloods don’t necessarily have to be Muggles. The parents can also be squibs (it’s the ‘non-magical’-thing). Lily’s/Petunia’s parents are squibs, so they are really proud that Lily is a witch, and Petunia is jealous because she’s a squib too. But the parents of Snape are wizards. One of Snape’s parents is a brother/sister of one of Lily’s parents)
In Snape's worst memory Lily still tries to be nice to Snape, but the 'mudblood'-response shows Snape doesn't really care at all. This may explain that Snape doesn't like Harry next to the fact that James was his enemy at school.
The discussion about the dementors between Lily and Snape that Petunia heard was probably earlier, when the families did get along. Anyway, after a few years, Snape has a son, called Mark Evans, who doesn't live in Little Winging, but in a nearby village (so he is not registered as a wizard in Little Whinging). He doesn’t live with the mother of his son because of….. the same reason he changed his name, Perseus Evans, into Severus Snape…. (still thinking about this reason)

Well, this isn’t everything I’ve thought up, but I can’t remember it all, (and this post is going to be way too long if I did remember)…
So, what do you think? Is it too far-fetched? Anything you think really isn’t possible?
If Snape is really an Evans, this could be the reason that Dumbledore trusts him. And I’m sure there is more to know about Snape…

dumbledore150

July 6th, 2004, 2:15 pm

Does it actually say anywhere that Lily and James were nice people?

In ootp, we are shown that james wasn't too nice at school.

In PS Hagrid says:

'Now, yer mum and dad were as good a witch and wizard as I ever knew'.

He could have been talking about their skill with a wand, not their personalities.

dog star

July 6th, 2004, 2:23 pm

If it was James, then it would have had to have taken place in their 6th or 7th year at Hogwarts, as in Snape's Worst Memory, Lily doesn't seem to be too fond of James, so I doubt she would have brought him home with her, where Petunia might have heard them talking. I vote that it was definitely someone else, and it's probable that it could have been Snape. Lily seems to be the type who would invite someone home for the holidays if they didn't want to go to their actual home (maybe because it was an abusive one). And Petunia always seems to refer to James by his last name, anyhow.

Her reaction to him calling her a Mudblood is not the typical "You-Are-My-Acquaintance-What-Did-You-Just-Call-Me?!" reaction...instead, it's quiet. She blinks, then just makes her comments and moves on...that reaction, IMHO, is more of a "Well-I-Thought-You-Were-My-Friend." (For the record, I think he said what he said because he was trying to save face, not wanting to return to the Slytherin common room to find people asking him why the "Mudblood" had to save him. But he may have just done irreparable damage to whatever friendship they may have had at that very moment.)

It really could have been anyone, but if this theory is correct, then maybe it was Snape. Petunia is repeatedly described by Harry as being fanatical about cleanliness, so she probably wouldn't have been too fond of someone with a sallow face and greasy, stringy hair, making her very likely to refer to him as "that awful boy."

emma madison

July 6th, 2004, 2:27 pm

That's a fair point dog star, I agree.

Though... what if "that boy" was Lupin? They were talking about dementors, Lupin knows about Patronuses...

dog star

July 6th, 2004, 2:31 pm

But do we know that Lupin knew about Patronuses when they were at Hogwarts? Perhaps this is something he's learned later. That's one thing I can't reconcile for it to be Lupin -- why would he have been talking about Azkaban or the Dementors?

To me, it makes more sense for a Slytherin who has obviously dark "friends" (perhaps a better word is alliances) who may well have family members in Azkaban, to have been talking about them. But I could be completely off-base...just a thought.

whizbang121

July 6th, 2004, 3:10 pm

Peter was kind of awful. I think.
Mudblood is a socially unacceptable term referring to a muggleborn magical person. A muggleborn witch or wizard comes from a muggle family. There's no indication that squibs are muggles as squibs have magical parents. So it's probably inaccurate to say that Lily's parents and sister are all squibs rather than muggles.

But we are getting new information, like Dean Thomas's backstory. Dean believes as we do, that he is a muggleborn and even tell's Ron that his parents are muggles. But what Dean doesn't know is that his "dad" is actually mom's second husband. Her first husband, unknown to her, was a wizard who deserted his family to protect them when the DE's were after him. Apparently, he was killed. Dean has no idea his father was a wizard.

Could a backstory like this also apply to Lily?

dog star

July 6th, 2004, 3:22 pm

Where did we learn this backstory about Dean?

Classical_Wizar

July 6th, 2004, 3:27 pm

Where did we learn this backstory about Dean? Jo offical site in the extra stuff.

dog star

July 6th, 2004, 3:29 pm

Oh okay. I was wondering where on earth all of that came from. :lol:

Liv4Sirius

July 7th, 2004, 8:08 pm

Petunia dispised James, so I think it only makes since that the "awful boy" is James. Also, what other witch did she know other than Lily? And If Petunia had been accepted into Hogwarts before (or if that was important to the plot) I think Harry could easily find out. Just by asking a teacher, or a friend's parent. It seems like this comment is being taken to an extreme and we're digging for clues.

dog star

July 7th, 2004, 8:14 pm

Makes sense given that Petunia hates James, yes...but Lily didn't seem too fond of James either, at the point when we saw Snape's worst memory, which would have been the end of their fifth year. I don't think Lily was quite inviting James over to dinner or to visit for the holidays. :lol:

If it was James, it would have likely had to have been in their 6th or 7th years at Hogwarts, but even if it was, Petunia usually refers to James by name. That's what makes me think it may be someone else.

Minerve

July 7th, 2004, 8:15 pm

Yeah I always had the impression that the Dementors went to Azkaban after Voldie tried to kill Harry.

I think you are right. At the end of GoF (The parting of the ways, I believe), Dumbledore tells Fudge something like : "... and the rest of us sleep less soundly because you chose to put Voldemort's most loyal allies in charge of Azkaban ...". Sorry, I don't have the book with me at the moment.

To me, it is clear that the Dementors were sent to guard the prizon well after Lily and James's death if we consider that Fudge was elected Minister after Crouch Jr.'s arrest.

So Liliy - or anybody else - might have told Petunia what the Dementors were but she must have been in contact with the magical world after Lily's death to know about the link between Dementors and Azkaban.

pegoheart144

July 7th, 2004, 8:36 pm

The awful boy "tag" does fit James IF you are a 'muggle' who hates the magical world and you want to pretends it dosn't exist!! Thats would be how Petunia would see him!

HannahStar: yeah, i've got an open mind ....... sometimes! ;)Keep in mind we're referring to the Dursleys. The same people who refer to Harry as "Boy". I haven't found a passage yet where they actually called him by name. They strike me as people who would refer to other magical people as awful or worse. Petunia did refer to Lily as "Her".

lewis8604

July 7th, 2004, 9:53 pm

I like the idea of it being snape who was that awful boy. If James and Lily got together later in life how would she know him well enough to here about azkaban. Maybe it was snape who was freinds with lily and was trying to save face as dogstar said. It akes sense hat seh helped him. maybe snape lived around where lily lived w/ her parents. Th books never said that tey lived in ittle whinging

Remus Black

July 19th, 2004, 9:43 pm

I think she meant James and Lily, and was flustered because Harry retorted back at her that comment on just saying their names.

TaraBrady

July 19th, 2004, 9:51 pm

I'm not sure she would have referred to James as a 'boy,' since she knew him as an adult, but it might be another student that Lily had over at the holidays. I agree, it could be Snape; Lily was clearly very hurt when Snape called her a mudblood, as someone else has noted. Lily was a nice, caring person, but I think that at 15 she would have had a thick enough skin that someone she barely knew wouldn't be able to hurt her that much.

autumn_ashes

July 21st, 2004, 12:20 am

I was thinking...Did Petunia know about Sirius before Harry got it out in the open? I mean come on, think about it. In the 5th book when Harry is describing the Dementors, Aunt Petunia says something along the lines of that she always heard 'that boy' telling Lily about them. Now, assuming that when Petunia said 'that boy' she meant James, then there's a possibility that she had heard of and/or met Sirius b/c of his close connection with James. And it's even more possible, because we know that Sirius went and lived with James. Also, in the 3rd book she seems to keep a very close eye out when she hears that Sirius Black has escaped from prison. I know that she is naturally nosy, but maybe it's a cover up. Maybe she thought that Sirius would come for Harry. Tell me what you think!

the kryle

July 21st, 2004, 12:24 am

she probley knew that sirus was a person, but probley not even that he was in azkaban for murder.

Barbara Kennedy

July 21st, 2004, 12:26 am

There are a few threads that speculate that Petunia knows more about the Wizarding World than she admits.
These are a few of them.
Was Petunia at Lily and James wedding? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20855)
Could Petunia be a witch that got expelled from Hogwarts? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=12656)
Howler “Remember my last” (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11257)
Petunia Dursley (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20243)
Aunt Petunia - a squib? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=1916)
Petunia’s “magical” protection for Harry–True or False? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=15151)

I don't know if she knew Sirius or not.

poster

July 21st, 2004, 12:27 am

Hey good theory, I loaned my book to a friend so I can't check the especially wary thing for myself, but from the sound of it, I don't think Petunia would have gone to the Potter house with Lily, or bothered asking James about his friends. If she did know about Sirius I think it's more likely that she heard about it in Dumbledore's letter. :)

autumn_ashes

July 21st, 2004, 2:13 am

Well not that she asked James about his friends. I wouldn't expect her to do that. But, if Sirius lived with James and James went to see Lily, I wouldn't expect Sirius to stay at home. That's what I meant. And you're right, Dumbledore probably did mention him in the letter.

winky weasley

July 21st, 2004, 2:19 am

Don't you thin she would know something about Sirus considering that he is her nephew's godfather? She might not have wanted anything to do with that "world" but I feel that Lily would have informed her that they had a godfather for their son. So in short, yes, I am pretty positive that Petunia knew something about Sirus.

codswallop

July 21st, 2004, 2:26 am

I think petunia knows exactly who Sirius Black is. In POA, when they are playing the TV about BLack, Petunia looks out the window. Harry attributes that to Petunia being nosy. Maybe she knew exactly who he was and was looking out of the house to see if he was coming.....(if petunia attending her sisters wedding....a big if....she should have known Sirius.)

BattleGnome

July 21st, 2004, 2:43 am

Yah, Petunia probobly knows about Sirius. At the end of POA, when HArry Shows the Hogsmeade permission slip signed by Sirius, it was only Uncle Dursley, not Petunia, that said Harry didnt have a Godfather. Petunia probobly knew, just never told Dursley, because of her whole "Hatred of Wizard" syndrome.

grawp66

July 21st, 2004, 4:25 am

I expect she knew who Sirius was, for all the reasons listed above, but she probably didn't know him personally ( and didn't want to ).

FredWeasleyJr

July 21st, 2004, 4:31 am

i think petunia probably heard about sirius but not to the point where she knew who he was by looks, because she hated everything sabout the wizard world, so when she heard the news that black escaped a prison, i dont think she would have put one and one together and figured out that he was the one who "sold out her sister and had her and her husband killed"

chocolate_roses00

July 21st, 2004, 8:39 am

Imagine how Mr Dursley would act if he knew that his dear wife Petunia knows sirus?! Cause I doubt she would tell him how much she knows!

FluffyEarmuffs

July 21st, 2004, 11:27 am

She would have met Sirius if she went to Lily's wedding. Hmm, I wonder if she did go? Did she hate her sister, or just not get on with her?

phowell13

July 21st, 2004, 11:59 am

I think Petunia above all else is nosy. She likes knowing other people's business. And she seems to remember things remarkably well, like the Dementors guard Azkaban. She heard that presumably haerd that information at least 15 years ago. So, it is highly likely that she would remember Sirius if he visited with James or if information about him were mentioned where she could eavesdrop.

However, you would think that if she knew the connection of Sirius as Harry's godfather she would appear more frightened in book three. She does look out the window like he might be in the neighborhood, but if she knew the connection of Sirius to Harry then I would have expected her to be frightened like we saw her in the fifth book, and maybe telling Harry not to go outside, etc.

katie

July 21st, 2004, 12:15 pm

phowell13

July 21st, 2004, 12:33 pm

Petunia probably met Sirius but didn't know that he was the one who supposedly betrayed Lily and James, after all in PS/SS when Harry was left on her doorstep with a note explaining everything, the magical community didn't know that it was Sirius who had betrayed James and Lily, and as far as we know Petunia hasn't been in contact with the magical community since that.

But remember Dumbledore left the note on the Dursleys with Harry and Dumbledore was the one who knew about the secret keeper arrangement. He also would have thought that Harry needed protecting from Sirius, since that is the one he thought betrayed the Potters. It is possible the note mentioned him.

katie

July 21st, 2004, 1:22 pm

But Hagrid borrowed Sirius's motorbike - and Hagrid told Dumbledore that it was Sirius's. If Dumbledore thought that Sirius was to blame, then surely he would have shown some sort of reaction to Hagrid borrowing his bike. Plus in PoA Dumbledore believed Harry and Hermione when they said that Sirius was innocent.

filius

July 21st, 2004, 2:20 pm

I think that was before he "killed" Wormtail so they probably didn't know. It was on the same day that the Potters were killed that Hagrid borrowed the bike. I think Sirius "killed" Wormtail only after a few days. He needed to wait for Hagrid to bring his bike back.

SquibOnline

July 21st, 2004, 2:30 pm

I think she knows more about the wizarding world than she lets on, so she might well have known sirius - she saw him on the TV in PoA though and she acted normally.

Elf

July 22nd, 2004, 4:14 am

I think that while Petunia was probably just refering to James as that "awful boy", it is perhaps more important to consider why she refers to him as that and not by his name.

I think the answer is that Petunia is afraid of what she does not understand. I consider this to be similar to how most wizards will not refer to Voldemort by his name out of fear.

At the end of PS Dumbledore says to Harry: "Always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself." Petunia is afraid to say James' name because she is afraid of him. Likewise she is probably refering to Lily when she says "her." She refers to her own sister as a freak in PS, insinuating that she was also afraid of Lily, whether out of jealousy or merely because she didn't understand the concept of magic we don't know. I think in Petunia's mind James probably represents how the world of magic stole her sister away from her, and this is something that caused her pain and fear.

I also think she is ashamed to discuss them in front of Uncle Vernon. In OotP it says: "Aunt Petunia looked quite appalled with herself. She glanced at Uncle Vernon in fearful apology..." I think she is also afraid of how her own husband perceives her for having a connection to these "abnormal" people and I believe it is obvious that the two of them have a pact not to talk about such things in their very "normal" house.

I think perhaps this scene in OotP is foreshadowing that Petunia and Harry will eventually, after considerable turmoil, discuss Lily and James more openly and maybe Petunia will face the grudges and fears of her past and bring herself to use Harry's parents' names.

TaraBrady

July 22nd, 2004, 4:49 am

Yes, all right, maybe it was James. I'm still holding out hope for Snape, though!

I think she's avoiding using their names out of hate, not fear. I mean, yes, she hates them because she fears them, but I don't think she's entirely aware of that. On a conscious level, she refuses to use their names because of her utter distaste for all things magical, much as a racist would refer to members of a minority they're prejudiced against as 'those people.' It's not the same as not saying 'Voldemort,' is what I'm saying.

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I think Petunia's level of knowledge about the magical world is very telling. I'm picturing her sitting in the next room listening to James and Lily talk, not wanting to let on that she thinks magic is anything but horrid and unnatural.

I very much hope that we do get to hear more about Lily and James and the pact with Dumbledore from Petunia. Now that we've heard Dumbledore's end of it from him, I want Petunia to tell us herself why exactly she agreed to take Harry: I don't buy it was just because he would almost certainly have been killed otherwise. We've seen that Petunia knows just how dangerous the magical world can be, and what powerful enemies her sister and brother-in-law had, so I don't buy that it was just because Harry would be safest there. She's got to be hiding something from us. Hopefully we'll hear more on that if the "Remember my last" question wins the poll.

FredWeasleyJr

July 22nd, 2004, 4:59 am

im pretty sure she was talking about James, and when harry yelled at her she ignored him because she didnt think it was even worth acknowledging

Elf

July 22nd, 2004, 11:02 am

original post by TaraBrady
I think she's avoiding using their names out of hate, not fear. I mean, yes, she hates them because she fears them, but I don't think she's entirely aware of that. On a conscious level, she refuses to use their names because of her utter distaste for all things magical, much as a racist would refer to members of a minority they're prejudiced against as 'those people.' It's not the same as not saying 'Voldemort,' is what I'm saying.

I disagree. I think that Petunia is well aware of the fact that she fears anything to do with magic. Her hate or distaste is simply a mask for it. It is easier for a person to act like they hate something than to admit they are afraid of it. People have the illusion that in showing their hate they appear strong, but in admitting their fear they appear weak. Petunia knows this and she refuses to show her fear in front of Harry or her family.

Now while I think that Petunia probably did hate James, I don't think it is a correct assumption that she hated Lily. I think that Petunia is still mourning the loss of her sister, not just because Lily is dead, but because Petunia feels that years ago Lily was unfairly taken away from her by these magical people that she does not understand and therefore fears.

To say Lily's name or even James's name would be terrifying for Petunia, because it would be a reminder that she has much pain to deal with concerning them--the pain of what she perceives as abandonment on Lily's part for leaving her for a different life, the pain of knowing her parents were so proud of Lily being a witch and the pain of Lily's death.

I'm not equating Petunia's fear of saying Lily & James' names with fear of saying Voldemort's name in that Petunia was afraid of Lily and James themselves. I'm merely saying that the whole scenario caused her pain and fear and her way of dealing with it was to refuse to speak their names s though she had shunned them both.

SquibOnline

July 22nd, 2004, 11:30 am

Yup she could be referring to anyone of the boys that Lily met

Kimmetje

July 22nd, 2004, 1:23 pm

I do think that awful boy is James Potter as Lily wouldn't hang around with Snape or Voldemort. It could be if Petunia heard or saw something when Lily escape Voldemort thrice with James. Petunia would than have to be a squib.

It is most likely that it was James as she wouldn't talk to Volemort or Snape. She probably heard them talk at her parents house and only James and Lily would be there.

Padushi

July 22nd, 2004, 1:31 pm

I she could be referring to Sirius as the "...awful boy..."

But I don't think that has much relavance even then...I doubt Rowling dropped a ground-breaking clue behind every sentance that wasn't PERFECTLY clear :D
'Her', obviously, is Lily, as she was talking about her sister.
The only thing I think holds any mystery is that, as much as it seems that she avioded her sister during her (Petunia's) adult life, she seemed to know quite a bit about dementors...

seeker

July 22nd, 2004, 6:10 pm

Petunia does fear the magical world, however, in the past she has called Lily and James by names more specific than "that awful boy" and "her." In PS/SS she says quite clearly "It was Lily this and Lily that... then she met that Potter at school." Plus, she did know Harry's name before she took him in, implying that there was at least some nominal connection between the sisters, even if it was through someone else.
I just think that Petunia's reaction during the OOTP scene only makes sense if there is some secret behind that conversation that we don't know. Vernon knows that Petunia at one point lived with her witch sister and must have met her sister's wizard husband, so she has no need to be ashamed of knowing something that she heard from them. No, that answer was a coverup. She either knows about dementors and Azkaban in a more personal way, or she knows - or knew- someone else magical that Vernon doesn't know about and whom she still has reason to fear disrupting her life. "That awful boy" could refer to many people, or even someone we have never met. But the way its written suggests that it is not James Potter.

Ilovefredandgeorge

July 22nd, 2004, 6:28 pm

That awful boy could be Lupin... the movie makes it look like Lupin and Lily were close. Plus Lupin could be awful in petunia's terms because he is a werewolf.

bubblesarah

July 22nd, 2004, 6:40 pm

It could be wormtail, they were friends at the time implied!

poster

July 22nd, 2004, 10:48 pm

I agree with many of the posters but (and I might have missed someone saying this as there were a lot of posts) I hardly think Petunia would ever have been in the position to call Voldemort a boy givin his age :p .

autumn_ashes

July 23rd, 2004, 12:30 am

I agree with you SquibOnline. I think Petunia would have to know more about the wizarding world because of Lily. I mean she's even seen Lily preform magic (teacups into frogs). And, she wouldn't want Harry to know that she knew about it, or he would freak (as he did in OotP).

Doug

July 23rd, 2004, 12:48 am

I think she might have a slight idea of who Sirius is but nothing more. I think that she might have known him from living with James and being in the wedding. When she found out that he was supposedly a murderor she had no trouble believing it because to them, anyone involved with magic is nothing but scum.

autumn_ashes

July 23rd, 2004, 11:39 pm

She acts like everything that has to do with magic is evil, but I think that she is faking it. I think that she was just jealous of Lily. I definitely thinks that she knows more about the Wizarding world than she everybody thinks.

Shauna

July 23rd, 2004, 11:46 pm

I imagine that she had heard of him before but seeing as she is trying to put on a front of knowing nothing about wizards I don't think she would go out of her way to find out about him.

Shauna

autumn_ashes

July 24th, 2004, 12:08 am

If she already knew who he was, then she wouldn't have to go out of her way to find out about him. And maybe the letter that Dumbledore wrote asked her to act like she knew nothing of the Magical world.

Tom Marvolo Rid

July 24th, 2004, 5:13 pm

I'd say Petunia definitely knew about Sirius, and she also knows much more about the Wizarding world then she is willing to admit. I think her reactions when it was mentioned that black had escaped wer kept in check because she didn't wish for Harry to suspect anything at all.

Adual

July 24th, 2004, 5:45 pm

Weasleytwin

July 24th, 2004, 5:54 pm

Since Dumbledore and Fudge and everybody else were very concerned about Harry's safety in PoA, it seems strange to me that they wouldn't have sent a letter to Petunia about Sirius. But then again, nobody informed Petunia that Harry had dueled with Voldemort at the end of GoF...

I think, one way or another, that she probably knew. It just seems irresponsible of Dumbledore to not tell her that an alleged dangerous murderer might be after Harry.

Doug

July 24th, 2004, 6:24 pm

Very, very good point weasleytwin! I think that Dumbledore must have said something but Petunia just ignored it and wished that Harry would die...Horrible woman, anyways I think she just treated the information like rubbish as she does with everything else connected with the wizarding world.

Weasleytwin

July 24th, 2004, 6:47 pm

I don't think Petunia wants Harry to die. I agree, it is horrible of her to treat him so badly, but I think she is influenced to do so by Vernon. I think she must care about Harry deep down, but doesn't want Vernon to know it. You can't raise a child for 15 years and want them to die, even if you don't like them. And I also think that underneath all the anti-wizard comments and actions, she did have some affection for Lily or feels some family obligation to care for Harry. I think Petunia knew Sirius was 'after' Harry, but didn't say anything because she knew he was protected under Dumbledore's protection anyways.

Doug

July 24th, 2004, 9:43 pm

autumn_ashes

July 26th, 2004, 11:16 pm

I don't think that Petunia wants Harry to die either. If she wanted him to die, she would've let Harry run away in OotP instead of forcing him to stay in the house.

tantrix

July 26th, 2004, 11:30 pm

I think that deep down, Petunia cares for Harry. I don;t think that she knew about Sirius being in Azkaban.. she might've known about Sirius being Potter's best friend.

Manu

July 30th, 2004, 12:59 pm

I agree with most of you, I also doubt that "That awful boy" refers to James, it would have been easy for her to call him Potter or to refer to him as Harry's father. And it would be so like Jo's style to just slip some information like that... I will come back to that later

It could be indeed Sirius I suppose, as it seems very unlikely that Petunia had never heard of him or met him (at the wedding if she did attend it, maybe at Harry's christening aswell or any friendly gathering really, after all Petunia lived under the same roof as Lily for a while). I, however, am pretty sure that even if Petunia knew Sirius, she knows absolutely nothing about him since the day her sister and James were killed. As somebody said (sorry can't give you full credit as I don't remember your name :sad: ) Petunia has not been in contact with anybody magical so she would not be able to have heard the news about Sirius' alleged murder of Pettigrew and the muggles and therefore would not have been able to connect an escaped mass murderer with one of her sister's most trusted friends.

As for why she did not recognise Sirius when she saw in on the news, maybe that can be explained by the fact that he had just spent 10 years in Azkaban , which we all know is far from being an holidat camp and therefore his physical appearnace could have been much different from the time when she knew him...

so back on the "awful boy" quote. If it is not James Potter (and let's be honest, it would be much better for the plot if it was NOT him), then it can be any other men the same age or younger than Lily and James, so any Marauders, most actual DE (Licius, crabbs ....).

I have my own theory. For Petunia to have heard the conversation and remember it, I would think that the conversation probably was heated, it's easier to overhear an argument than a quiet conversation, and I do not think that Demetors and Azkaban would have been subjects that Lily would have discussed in front of her sunday roast... So let's say Lily was arguing with somebody her age or younger and Dementors and Azkaban came up and Petunia overheard it, got really frightened and as a result the info sticked into her mind for the next 15 years. I think whoever the awful boy was, he may have threatened Lily with Dementors and Askaban. I know it can be far fetched, but at least that would mean we can eliminate most of the good guys such as the marauders... what do you guys think???... :huh:

Mumps

July 30th, 2004, 1:30 pm

So let's say Lily was arguing with somebody her age or younger and Dementors and Azkaban came up and Petunia overheard it, got really frightened and as a result the info sticked into her mind for the next 15 years. I think whoever the awful boy was, he may have threatened Lily with Dementors and Askaban. I know it can be far fetched, but at least that would mean we can eliminate most of the good guys such as the marauders... what do you guys think???...
There's a theory that there was someone else who was with the Potters before Voldemort arrived to murder them.
If this same person was the one who Lily had an arguement with then it could have easily got into a heated disscussion. One that could have easily been overheard.
Another possibility of course is that Dumbledore, for some reason, spoke of Dementors in the letter he left, of course, Vernon would have probably read this too.
Hermione's parents seem reasonably aware of things in the wizarding world. Hermione does get 'The Daily Prophet', so perhaps Petunia just read a wizard newspaper that Lily had ordered and one of the stories had to do with Dementors. Maybe a moving picture of someone who'd been ini Azkaban horrified her so much that it stayed in her memory.

Dollmage

July 31st, 2004, 4:14 am

We know Petunia didn't read about the dementors in a newspaper because she heard someone talking about them. It could be an arguement, as was mention, but she could have also accidently heard a heated, but less quiet conversation like Molly and Arthur Weasly were having in the Leaky Cauldron in the third book that Harry heard. Also, I think we can assume that the memory is from more than 15 years ago because I am guessing that it was when Pentunia and Lily were still living in hte same house. I think it is safe to assume that Pentunia and Vernon have been married for more than 15 years because that is how old Dudley is. Also, I think Lily would have learned about dementors earlier in her introduction to the wizarding world, maybe not quite as early as Harry but at least when she just left school. Pentunia never said how many years were "years ago". I don't know who the 'awful boy' could be, James is everyone's first instinct-just like Harry's. It could be any number of people. I am assuming, of course, that the 'her' is Lily.

Sorry it is so long...

APoetsInstinct

July 31st, 2004, 4:24 am

Awful boy sounds an awful lot like Snape to me...

atherella

July 31st, 2004, 4:49 am

I wonder if Petunia ever had a run in with a dementor before? I really don't have anything to back that up, just a nagging thought I've had. Her reaction to hearing about the dementor in her neighborhood and attacking Harry and Dudley just seemed TOO emotional and real not to know exactly how awful an experience it is. Of course, it could be as simple as hearing about dementors from others. (Perhaps even though she was jealous of Lily, she also thought her brave, and if they scared Lily, she knew they must be VERY bad....) Ah, now I'm just stretching I guess... :lol:

Edit to add a VERY! :p

winter snow

July 31st, 2004, 5:19 am

You know, it's possible that Lily might have invited James to meet her parents and her sister when they were in they're 6th or 7th year at Hogwarts. I can picture Lily and Petunia discussing the magic world and Lily's experiences at Hogwarts. I've stated on another post that my belief is that Petunia was jealous of Lily when she got her letter to attend Hogwarts. Being that the parents were so proud, and Lily got attention for it, Petunia would have felt jealousy towards her sister. Sibling rivalry runs deep in some people. So, I think it's possible that Petunia is talking about James and Lily. Her resentment would have run deep, because she was the one left at home hearing about Lily and about how proud the parents were of her day after day. Trust me, its enough to promote hard feelings in any sibling. Petunia always seems to hate the wizarding world, but would her reaction have been different had she gone to Hogwarts? Imho I think not.

Furienna

August 13th, 2004, 2:13 pm

Once again, I will post my thought about this.

Petunia got to know about dementors and Azkaban years back, maybe before Dudley and Harry were born. How, when and where this happened is something we still have to find out or will never know, but Petunia never wanted to think about it afterwards and never talked about it with anyone. However, years later, the thought of her beloved son almost having his soul sucked out of him made her lose her composure and this information blurts out of her. But afterwards, she was ashamed of herself for saying that out loud, and she doesn't want to admit the real reason why she knows this because she doesn't want to admit that she has knowledge about the wizard world or because of reasons we still have to find out or will never know. So what does she do now? She tells a lie and says that thing about the mysterious "awful boy" and the mysterious "her" and lets everybody think she means Harry's parents.

Alfalfa

August 14th, 2004, 1:31 am

I think petunia is one of jkr's "redemtion" caracthers, ie, caracthers who started out as bad evil terrible people, but we are learning more and more about them so we realise that a lot of terrible things happened to them to make them who they are.(another example would be, obviously, snape). i think the fact that petunia's parents seemed to favourlily over her majorly factored in to her general hatred of everything magical. also, i really want to know how all of harry's grandparents died off to quickly, cuz i think that might be significant to petunia's feelings too. (and they must have died off pretty suddenly, and not of natural causes, i'm thinking. We know that the sr. potters were still around at least until james graduated...)

Seven

August 14th, 2004, 1:37 am

Aunt Petunia doesn't like magic because of all the attenion Lily got. She knows alot, just enough to keep Harry safe. Eventually, life with the Dursleys will get better because of her.

Silver_Gryphon

January 16th, 2005, 6:48 pm

I did search in some "Petunia threads" for an answer and even in "book mistakes" and didn't find anything.
I'm posting it here and not in "Divination..." because there are already threads about possible future revelations about Petunia there, and it's not the point of my question.

I was wondering how is it possible that Petunia knows about Dementors and Azkaban if Dementors are "working" there since after Voldemort's fall (we know that they were on his side when he was at full power) = after James and Lilly got killed... (so it's impossible that Petunia heard "her and that awful boy" talk about them).
To add more if I'm not mistaken Dementors got the job in Azkaban after a few years time from the end of the first war.
To say it simple: Dementors were not guarding Azkaban when the Potters were alive, Dementors were not there for a few years while Harry was already at the Dursleys.

What do you think? A mistake or important part of the story?

super_kimHP

January 16th, 2005, 7:32 pm

The demonters did live when Voldemort was at power so even though they didn't guard Azkaban at that time she could have heard about them. She could also have heard about Azkaban (if that even excisted at that time :shrug:).
Or maybe it's a hint to tell us that Petunia knows more about the wizarding world that she is showing?!

icklek

January 16th, 2005, 7:42 pm

Where does is say that they were on Voldemort's side in the first war? I mean, do we know for certain that they have not always guarded Azkaban???

dawningoftime

January 16th, 2005, 7:43 pm

Putting two and two together wouldn't be so difficult either because as we found out in book five she's been in contact with Dumbledore and he could be keeping her informed as to what's going on.

fairy_lightz

January 16th, 2005, 7:47 pm

i thought that they always guarded it

sere35

January 16th, 2005, 7:53 pm

I always wondered who she heard talking about them. In the book Harry just assumes she was talking about his parents. I don't think it was them. I think that is part of the big revelation about Petunia coming up. She had contact with other wizards besides Harry's parents.

Vittoria

January 16th, 2005, 8:10 pm

Well, Voldy started his first reign of terror c.1970. Thats when he started gathering followers...we don't actually know when the Dementors joined Voldy.

James and Lily met c.1971 - when they went to Hogwarts. Since Voldy fell 10 years after this meeting, the Dementors could have been gaurding Azkaban for most of this time, and only joined Voldy a year or 2 before he fell. Plenty of time to talk about them.

If you say Lily didn't like James in 5th year (pensieve), and so wouldn't have bought him home, she could have liked him at the beginning of their school life, then fallen out with him, then got back together in 6th year, or just liked him after 6th year (c.1976), that still leaves up to 5 years to talk at home...

EDIT: Depending when Petunia and Lily broke contact, Petunia may not have known they left the prison to work with Voldy during WWI

Fred Black

January 16th, 2005, 8:14 pm

i wonder whether Petunia knows about Mrs.Figg? Maybe Dumbledore felt Petunia would be worried without any way to contact the magical world so he had squib guarding him.

Silver_Gryphon

January 16th, 2005, 8:29 pm

Dambledore said (don't remember when and where) that he didn't like Fudge's idea of Dementors guarding Azkaban because he fears that they will rejoin Voldemort as soon as he'll return... so I thought that they never before guarded Azkaban and Minister gave them the job after Voldemort's fall... so even if Petunia is contacting with someone from the wizarding world, do you think he/she would write/tell her: "...and BTW, Dementors are guarding Azkaban now..."?

/edit/ also, my question is not "how is it possible that she knows about Dementors and Azkaban", but the question is "how is it possible that she knows that Dementors are "working" in Azkaban"?

Nephel

January 16th, 2005, 8:39 pm

I was wondering how is it possible that Petunia knows about Dementors and Azkaban if Dementors are "working" there since after Voldemort's fall (we know that they were on his side when he was at full power) = after James and Lilly got killed... (so it's impossible that Petunia heard "her and that awful boy" talk about them).
To add more if I'm not mistaken Dementors got the job in Azkaban after a few years time from the end of the first war.
To say it simple: Dementors were not guarding Azkaban when the Potters were alive, Dementors were not there for a few years while Harry was already at the Dursleys.

What do you think? A mistake or important part of the story?

Even if the Dementors were not present at Azkaban, then they would have still been wandering the streets and dark alley-ways ready to jump out of a bush and suck someone's soul.

I imagine their movement was more rampant when they were not forced to stay at Azkaban; in the time the Potter's were alive. This means the Dementors existence would have been general knowledge.

PersiaChaos

January 16th, 2005, 9:16 pm

I agree with most everyone who already posted: Dementors have always existed, so even if they weren't always guarding Azkaban, it'd be easy for Petunia to have heard of them. Even so, I was of the opinion that dementors had always guarded Azkaban. Could anyone tell me where the books said that they were hired after the fall of Voldemort?

Lotario

January 16th, 2005, 10:06 pm

I also assumed, that the dementors had guarded Azkaban during the first war. It was never said in the books (or I can't remember it...) that they were hired after Voldemorts downfall. Dumbledore only said in GoF, chapter 36 to Fudge "...you have put LV's most dangerous supporters in the care of creatures who will join him the instant he asks them". He said nothing of "rejoining" Voldemort.

Fawkesified

January 16th, 2005, 10:10 pm

If the Dementor's were on the side of Voldemort, maybe they were in secret...

bigboss

January 16th, 2005, 10:13 pm

^^^ well we got 180 days until we find out the answer, so ummm..... i think that your right but the reason that he didn't need them was because he already had more people then he needed so their was no needing to get the demntors.

Denton56

January 16th, 2005, 10:16 pm

Dumbledore himself called them his most dangerous supporters. So yes.

The question I ponder is, if what I think is true, why where supporters of Voldmort allowed to guard a prison full of supporters of Voldemort.

We know some Death Eaters got free because they bribed people or named some names. But why would the Dementors have gotten away with it?

Lotario

January 16th, 2005, 11:35 pm

Dumbledore himself called them his most dangerous supporters. So yes.

Dumbledore didn't call the dementors "his most dangerous supporters" - he only said they were guarding Voldmorts most dangerous supporters. I think he once -but I can't rembember when - called them a "natural ally" of Voldemort.

I'm not sure, if dementors are able to support a person or their ideas - I had the impression, they follow or obey the of a person, who gives them the possibility to suck out the happiness or souls of people.

genesis

January 16th, 2005, 11:41 pm

Petunia obviously knows more than what she is saying about the magical world. A key to this riddle is when and why did Petunia and Lily have a falling out. Petunia likes to be involved in conversations. It is quite possible that Petunia overheard a conversation Lily and someone else had about them, or Petunia might have already had some first-hand experience with them. She was concerned when finding out Dudley ran into the dementors.

Barbara Kennedy

January 16th, 2005, 11:50 pm

Perhaps this discussion can be useful?

That “awful boy” and “her” discussing Dementors (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=21104)

LynorEclipse

January 17th, 2005, 12:00 am

To whomever thinks that DD is really in contact with Petunia in secret, I don't think so. I don't think that DD has many secrets left to tell Harry. If he was in contact with Petunia, it would've come up in their talk at the end of OotP. He told Harry everything. If he wanted to hide something from Harry, it would've been that Harry had to kill or be killed, because he cares about Harry (as he said he did) and he wanted Harry to be alright... "I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed." (chap37, OotP)

Anyways, Dementors. Here, for reference this is a combined thread: Dementors (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=172310#post172310). If you scroll down to Post #82, the question is asked "What are Dementors?".

I agree with Vittoria

Well, Voldy started his first reign of terror c.1970. Thats when he started gathering followers...we don't actually know when the Dementors joined Voldy.

James and Lily met c.1971 - when they went to Hogwarts. Since Voldy fell 10 years after this meeting, the Dementors could have been gaurding Azkaban for most of this time, and only joined Voldy a year or 2 before he fell. Plenty of time to talk about them.

If you say Lily didn't like James in 5th year (pensieve), and so wouldn't have bought him home, she could have liked him at the beginning of their school life, then fallen out with him, then got back together in 6th year, or just liked him after 6th year (c.1976), that still leaves up to 5 years to talk at home...

FootbagFanatic09

January 17th, 2005, 12:01 am

I have also thought about this. I think since Petunias sister was a witch she does know some things about the wizarding world. She probally heard something about it during a conversation with her sister. Or maybe since dementors supposedly were with Voldemort she had actually had a run in with them. After all her sister was hunted by Voldemort.

winky22

April 17th, 2005, 5:37 pm

I have a gut feeling that it was Snape who was that awful boy lets face it he is awful gorgeous but awful. :p

LuvRed

April 17th, 2005, 6:33 pm

That "awful boy" could be Snape/Lupin/James maybe Sirius. However, I narrow it down to Snape or James. In romantical sense, Jame's the only "awful boy".

babydoll47

April 17th, 2005, 8:46 pm

I believe it James. Who else?

voldyrules

April 17th, 2005, 9:04 pm

So that is why LV hates muggles. He met Petunia......... :rotfl:

It all makes sense now....... :elaugh:

:clap: Hilarious

I think it was James

Sirius Black, Black as he's painted? Notorious mass murder or innocent siging sensation? :nc: :lol: :rotfl:

Wimsey

April 17th, 2005, 9:21 pm

Given that Petunia hates all wizards, they would all be awful in her mind.

Of course, the question is, is that really how she learned of it? Like many, I think that Petunia was lying about how she knew. (This is based on the way she reacted and the way she delivered the lines.)

hollygo72

April 17th, 2005, 11:30 pm

ginasmads

April 17th, 2005, 11:33 pm

i think it was james, but maybe not the way she heard it!! i wish petunia was mosre honest then we would have some real answers!!!!

exiguusmus

April 17th, 2005, 11:37 pm

Just thinking out of left field here. Maybe Petunia went to Azkaban once to confront Sirius over what he allegedly did to her sister (and possibly other members of her family). Sibling rivalry or not, she was still family.

And people do visit. I remember Ron saying that Arthur had to go there once (didn't say why though).
Visitors are allowed in Azkaban (that's how Barty Crouch Jr escaped), but IMO it's highly unlikely that Petunia has ever vistited Azkaban let alone Sirius in Azkaban. IMO she didn't even know about Sirius, otherwise she would have reacted very differently when she heard his name on the television in PoA.

Wimsey

April 17th, 2005, 11:54 pm

And people do visit. I remember Ron saying that Arthur had to go there once (didn't say why though).

It was almost certainly Ministry of Magic business.

daniel2099

April 18th, 2005, 10:38 am

when did dormentors start to gard askabam?
if it wasn't till after lv's fail then it couldn't be james or lily

but ask I look at It I noiced
it saiys that awful boy told here about them .
it dosnt say this is how she knows they are garding azacbam

I think this is snap for 3 resons
#1 jkr said you learn some thing big about lily in book5
#2 this line
#3 what happens in 'snapes wort memory'

note J.K.R. wanted us to know this is snapes 'worst' memory

Emi_Weasley

April 19th, 2005, 10:36 am

So that is why LV hates muggles. He met Petunia......... :rotfl:

It all makes sense now....... :elaugh:

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!! THAT'S SO FUNNY!!!!!!! Ok, I'll stop acting like a maniac... :blush:
EmI_Weasley*

haha

April 20th, 2005, 12:39 am

I don't think that Snape would voluntarily go anywhere near Harry considering his history with James. As for LV, the whole reason why DD placed Harry with his aunt and uncle was because LV couldn't get at him, since Petunia and Lily shared the same blood. The whole reason that Petunia was silent was because she obviously didn't want to talk to Harry about his parents, rather than that not being the truth.

I think it's same to assume that her statement implied James and Lily, and this may be one of those cases where people are digging far too deep for meaning. Not that i blame you, because we have to do something to keep ourselves occupied.