Does Malfoy really know what he's getting into?

Dont you think Malfoy is being a little naive when it comes to the Dark Side? I mean, he cant be all that evil, hes just a kid. Im not defending him or anything, but what do you think will happen in bk 5 when things become really serious? will he finally realize what is happening or become like his father?

In future books, I think we will learn more about the Malfoys. In my opinion, Draco is good. He's just trying to impress his father. He's plastering fake evilness into his emotions. He and Harry will probably have to work together to defeat the Dark Lord.
By reading several fanfics, it is quite possible that Lucius bullies Draco. Of course, these are just fanfics, but there are truth surrounding them.

~Jen.

Well, we've seen Lucius bullying Malfoy when Harry got caught on Knockturn Alley, saying that how good was Draco if he couldn't beat a Muggle-born girl (Hermione). Actually I think that's interesting, the Draco could be good. We've never really considered it. He is just a kid, but that's easy to forget because of how much he bullies and acts as though he's older.

Well, I just think he's a/n :yell: . But, no, I don't think he realizes how serious this whole dark wizard thing is. Draco has lived all of his concious life without Voldemort's terror. He has, however, lived under dark influence, so he sees it as a part of daily life. I certainly hope he doesn't realize the ramifications of his actions and turn good. It would be too cutesy and boring..:sleep:

I agree with the fact that Draco is bullied by his father, but bullied into what?
Think about it, all the prejudice Draco has against muggle born people, Harry, and people of a lower social status than him, comes from his father, so this idea that evil is better, evil is powerful, specially Voldermort evilness is the most powerful, all comes from his father, his father is bulling him into believing that evil is the way to go. And he certainly believes it, given his age and immaturity I don?t think he realizes what it all means.
Then again maybe he will grow up like his father, believing it and practicing it. We?ll just have to wait and see.

I agree that Draco has been brainwashed by his father ever since the day he was born. As an child, he must of had Voldie dolls to play with, was only allowed to invite pure blood friends to his birthday parties, learned how to terrorised the neighbours' cat, played dirty tricks on the house elf, etc. This treatment having started during his early days, i highly doubt there is a way to forget about it and join Dumbledore on his fight agains the dark side!

I think Draco knows enough about the Dark Side to get into trouble. But knowing and understading are two different things. Draco can't possibly understand what goes on because his father probably doesn't let him know everything. That family seems to be rather disfunctional. I don't know about you, but a parent telling their kid that they aren't doing their best because they aren't top of their class seems to be rather harsh. As for Draco being good, I think he has the possibility of doing a 180 and change his ways. If he will or not remains to be seen.

No, I don't think Draco really understands what he's doing. Like others have said, evil is just what he does. This is how he's been brought up, it's all he knows. He doesn't have a broad view in life and doesn't really get the bigger picture. Life has worked out for him so far-- he's rich, he's 'powerful', he gets what he wants and has his little pure-blood friends. His speech on the train at the end of GoF is evilness in itself, but I think there's hope for him yet. Lucius does abuse him (emotionally), but Draco looks up to him regardless. I hope he does turn-- he's an evil little brat, but he's pathetic. He's been taught to hate the people who'd have a good influence on him. If someone doesn't break through to him he'll grow into the spitting image of his father.

No, he doesn't. As has been said, he only sees the 'glamour' of the Dark Side - power, intimidation, status, etc. Once he sees the pitfalls, like serving a master who might kill him at the slightest whim, I think he may well reconsider his position. Whether he'll be humble enough to go to DD/Harry for help, or have enough backbone to oppose his father is another story.

But when push comes to shove - can he leave his parents? After all, he's just a kid. If he can, we'll probably see a side of Draco we've never seen before; a human side that needs help, aswell as his good side (which should be a culture shock for all of us). If he can't, then he will become just like his father - an evil, spineless, wannabe.

Draco acts tough, but deep down, I think he's just a big scaried cat. Look at him in GoF. Hermione says "Hello Professor Moody." and Draco practically jumps out of his skin.

He only knows what his father has told him about Voldemort and the Dark Arts. I doubt he has actually ever experienced any of the actual curses. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if Lucious had used them on Draco as a form of punishment.

I just hope that JK doesn't go formulatic and have Draco "see the light" about the dark side.:rolleyes: That would be so lame.

I think that Draco is really a Whinner :bawl: He was sort of scared when asked to go into the forbidded forest. I think that he just wants to impress the kids that think that his p:) :) p don't stink. (can I say that?) it's all a big show. I do think that he does know right from wrong. In the right aspect.

I don't think he truly understands where his meddling in the dark arts will take him. All he sees right now is the power and respect that comes with it.

I'd quite like to see him turn good for a while, then go completely evil again. :devil:

Oh, and to add to that...

Remember how he reacted when Harry insulted his Mother? I think he's protecting her from Lucius.

~Jen.

Draco is naive in most matters, come to think of it. He really is a sheltered child. I don't think that he's being bullied by Lucius into his beliefs; it's more of a lack of other influence. Draco greatly respects his father, and seems to appreciate what he does and says; that is not the view of an oppressed child. Most children are subject to many different opinions and teachings at a young age, but from what we've seen, Draco's only gotten one point of view. He only understands what he knows, and he only knows what he's been taught by his father and his father's friends (as far as we've seen, and most likely in reality). He doesn't really understand that what he's doing is wrong, because no one has indicated it. The people who try to remedy his behavior are the people who he has been taught to scorn, so there really isn't too much of a way out. By the time someone is eleven, they usually have many views on the world that are very hard to change. There's also a general lack of maturity because of these problems. Draco's character was formed to be the "bad guy" from the start, but not generally shallow. Rowling's characters have strength. Because he seems so shallow now, I can see large developments for him.

I agree with what has been said: Draco doesn't understand the thinner areas in the side that he supports, if he knows of them at all, because it isn't something that he's been taught or informed of by a "reliable source" (that is, in his own eyes.) I can imagine that his personality is going to start to collapse as he sees his father and his father's friends in pain and afraid (Voldemort, as far as I'm concerned, was quite serious when speaking of the paybacks). A more human side is going to be visible, and I can see Harry letting grudges go--but Draco won't. He's very stubborn, and even when everything is turned upside-down, it's likely he'll continue to hold the views he can.

I don't think that Draco is truely a bad guy, I just think that his father is his greatest influence. It's like in real life, most people believe what there parents believe whether it's religiously or politically. It's not that Draco can't think for himself, it's just that at home everything is his father's way, so he doesn't know any better. I think that later Draco will find the path that he wants to take and it won't be his father's path. That's just my opinion!

Originally posted by Tarawyn
Draco is naive in most matters, come to think of it. He really is a sheltered child. I don't think that he's being bullied by Lucius into his beliefs; it's more of a lack of other influence. [etc.]

Tarawyn... very insightful post, and you had me for most of it. The one part I'm not convinced on was this:

Originally posted by Tarawyn
Draco greatly respects his father, and seems to appreciate what he does and says

Certainly Draco relies on his father; he goes crying to him over everything at Hogwarts he doesn't like (Moody teaching, Hagrid teaching, etc.) But does he respect him? I'm not convinced of that. We saw him being a petulent little 12-year-old brat in the beginning of book 2, whining for the "present" his father had promised him while they were in Knockturn Alley. I'm not so sure that the spoiling parent who is otherwise nasty to Draco is really going to command his respect as Draco gets older. His fear, maybe, but I think Draco may be looking forward to the day when he calls the shots and his father is out of the picture. He's proud of his family line, of course, but that doesn't mean he necessarily likes the members of it. He seems a little protective of his mother - surprisingly so - and it makes me wonder what his homelife is like. We've had but the tiniest glimpse of it.

I suspect Draco is content to squeeze his father for whatever he can get - money, toys, power - but won't miss him much when he's gone.

I agree that Draco has been brainwashed into taking a Dark Arts / pureblood view of the world. I'd like to think he might develop some idea of ethics but his gloating over Cedric's death suggests he might be too far gone.

I can't say what will happen one way or the other. But I defnitly can't wait to see where it goes w/ this and what happens to him. It will be most interesting to see.

Given what he said at the very end of GoF, it seems that he has a pretty good idea what' going on, and he doesn't seem to have any reservations about it.

Draco is very comfortable with his the way he sees the world. In order for him to even consider what his position is wrong, there should be a stressful event that would force him to spend some time rethinking his values. He would never do it in his comfort zone. His world needs to be shaken. Of course in such an event he might resort to anger instead of reason.

I hate Malfoy. Yes, he knows what he is getting into. He likes it.

Well written Tarawyn and as usual Romulus Lupin.

Lucius' own father probably did the same thing to him while he was growing up. It could be a Malfoy rite-of-passage. Where are the rest of the prestigous Malfoys anyway?

You feel sorry for them when they are children but as Draco ages this daddy abusing him thing isn't going to fly anymore.
He definitly loves his mother but she doesn't seem to be stepping in with different ideals. Her name is 'Narcissa'. She's another form of Petunia. She adores Dudders but is not a good influence. Dudders is more doomed than Draco. He's uneducated, fat, lazy, etc.

Snape is Draco's only hope. He's the only one Draco might listen to. He scorns everyone else.

Good point, Fuchsia. Maybe Snape will turn him. He certainly doesn't
listen to Dd.

I dunno if some people may have already said this, sorry if you did, but I think it's not really Draco's fault. Ok, I hate him (he insults Ron and Ron's my favourite!!), but his father's a jerk and it's screwed him up. Sorry to be blunt, but you know it's true! I believe it was JenBluffheid who said this at the beginning of the thread, but Draco's trying to impress his father, show him he can be a badass too!

Draco's trying to impress his father, show him he can be a badass too!


My thoughts exactly. It's not Draco's fault, it's just the environment he's been 'forced' into.

So what you are trying to say is...

Draco is not evil but ignorant?

Yeah, pretty much. He's ignorant of how serious Dark Arts are, and even though he's conciously 'getting into it', he doesn't realize the extent of what he's doing.

It's like learning how to dissect a person.

There's a book, with schematics of the human body, you learn where to cut, what to do, how to hold the knife...But when actually faced with a corse...there's a large possibility that you might freeze.

I think that Draco has been brainwashed by his father, and been saturated with ideas of evil and cruelty from his father and those sort of dark wizards. I also think his father bullies him into being how he is in the books, and he might not actually want to be mean, just fear of his father's wrath, and that he might 'break the cycle' of the Malfoys (by turning good.) Personally, one of my favourite lines of the movie is when Malfoy goes 'I didn't know you could read' to Goyle It's so good how he is all casual and stuff. Gold :-)

We all have to understand that we're talking about children.

Haven't you experienced highschool? Children can be cruel, but that does not make them evil. For example, my school was deciding who they were going to place in their debating team. And a subject came up, wether or not to give some kid the deathpenalty. And almost everyone was for it. They were like "Whatever". Instead of debating over morals, they debated over the money and economics of the deathpenalty. None of them (Even the one defending the boy against the deathpenalty) were the least interested in how the boy was brainwashed. They didn't understand how serious brainwashing is, it effects the way you think, the way you analize things, that's why you can't cure yourself. Also, none of them were appalled with the deathpenalty, they didn't understand death, how it is very very final.

I'm sure that Draco doesn't understand either...

Well said...he just doesn't understand what hes doing...doesn't analyse the whole situation.

Wow, lots of great posts in this thread! I agree with the comments that Draco doesn't really understand the whole reality of death and the dark arts--I'm sure that to him, it just seems like a great way to be on top, pushing everyone around, and getting revenge on his enemies. Experiencing some reality might change his attitude: that's sort of my idea of why Snape turned around.

Originally posted by Penelope Clearwater
I don't know about you, but a parent telling their kid that they aren't doing their best because they aren't top of their class seems to be rather harsh.

Not to mention, I recall him making some snide remark about buying Draco's team new brooms, and they STILL didn't win. It's pretty clear from Lucius's attitude that he's not the least supportive of any sort of failure....and it doesn't even need to be failure, just not being Number One.

Now, about Draco turning: as many have said, Snape seems to be the only authority figure against the Dark Arts (or at all?) who Draco seems to respect.

But there's the question of how Snape will handle this, as well. Will he fight to keep Draco on the straight and narrow? Will he intervene and try to give Draco a new angle on the Dark Arts and Voldemort?

Or, now that he knows Lucius is a Death Eater, will he give up Draco for lost, and try to distance himself as much as possible? We know he has a past in the Dark Arts to live down: now that Voldemort is back and the Aurors are assembling, he will want to keep himself as free from any guilt-by-association as possible. He may try to make his own innocence more evident by denouncing his students with dark-arts connections. I don't like to think it will happen....but with Snape's personality, it might. If it does, that's one less hope for Draco's changing.

I think he doesn't accept failure from any Malfoy because it will bring the family name down somewhat.

Draco has had the Dark Arts and hatred for Harry feed into him since he was born. He would have meet Crabbe and Goyle before they started school and they were raised like him.

Draco probably didn't have the room(is that the word I want?) to have his own opinions at home. Lucious would have bullied him into following his beliefs. If he had of spoken out, he would have gotten beaten. He looks at his father with a mixture of fear and respect.

I'm still not convinced that him and Harry would fight evil together. They might have something to do with each other and I think JK has said that they won't team up together.

He wouldn't have spoken out, since it's the only thing he knows, the only thing that makes sense. Up until a certain age, he wasn't aware of other visions. So he wouldn't even consider speaking out.

I find it interesting that Lucius Malfoy hasn't really been effected by what happened to Harry and his family. Sure he was a deatheater, but you'd think he'd be a bit effected when he sees how the dark lord had an effect on a family the same as his, with a kid the same age as his. But then again, he was prejudiced against the potters because Lily was a muggle-born, and because they didn't support the dark lord, or wouldn't care if Draco was placed in that situation, where he was lost and alone in the world.

Draco seems to have been raised to believe that his father cares about him, when Lucius Malfoy probably couldn't really care less.

Argh I meant to give up on these Draco threads but I can't....

Lucius Malfoy would have had the exact same upbringing as Draco.
He didn't change. Why would Draco?

Although it is possible, though very very improbable, for Draco to change, I really don't think its going to happen. Sometimes an annoying, cowardly ferret is just an annoying, cowardly little ferret.

I really don't think that he realizes the full extent of what he is getting into. But I think that by the time he is into it, that he will be really too far gone to really be redeemed. By that time, he will be taken action in a way that demands consequences. My sympathy will end there.

The idea of children growing up to be murderers-even nasty little bullies-is something that I find rather morbid and tragic. But it does happen, both in literature and in real life. These people have to come from somewhere.

Originally posted by dumbleedore
He looks at his father with a mixture of fear and respect.

I agree with that totally.

I think that Draco dosen't know fully what he is doing, as so many people have said. I think he is trying to get some kind or care out of his father by being bad, I mean as the books go on, he gets meaner, maybe he is trying to get some love out of his father, or just sucking up?

He does seem to care about his mother, and right now I'm not sure if he will change or not. I think, however that once he sees the horror of it all, he will change. I mean, several times in the books he proved that he can be afraid, and for a minute even, seem just as human as any other, so to speak.

It appears that, thus far, Draco has been engaged in mostly taunting, verbal insults and playing pranks on people. I can't bring myself to see these actions as being motivated by a sense of evil. I would say that Draco is engaged in these activities because he knows that it is hurtful, but it won't kill. He feels comfortable with that.

I am very interested in seeing how he would handle the moment when he is ordered by Lucius or Voldemort to KILL SOMEONE, or inflict the Cruciatus curse on someone. For example, if he were standing in front of a helpless Ron, Hermione or Harry, would Draco be able to carry out torture and murder on these people that he has taunted relentlessly? Those actions are purely motivated by evilness, and I don't know if Draco would be able to do it if he were put in that position.

So far, he seems to be living under Lucius' glorified image of power. When Lucius is gone, will Draco be able to establish his own reputation of power? There is a difference between living with an image and living to establish an image. I don't think that Draco really understands all the practical implications of being a Death Eater and the work that that position entails.

Originally posted by Perdita
So far, he seems to be living under Lucius' glorified image of power. When Lucius is gone, will Draco be able to establish his own reputation of power? There is a difference between living with an image and living to establish an image. I don't think that Draco really understands all the practical implications of being a Death Eater and the work that that position entails.
These are very good points and I agree with them. We have to remember that Draco is constantly being spoilt, being sent home sweets from home, living in a manor, etc. And is father is very well known, naturally he's going to want to be like his parents. As far as we know he is an only child, which may be one of the reasons Lucius wants to bring up Draco to be exactly like himself, because he is his only son.

Will Draco be able to torture and kill with Daddy standing behind him and egging him on? Heck, yes.

Whether he would do it without a critical audience to impress is questionable, though.

Originally posted by Inkwolf
Will Draco be able to torture and kill with Daddy standing behind him and egging him on? Heck, yes.

I don't think so. For one thing, I can't see Lucius egging him on. I think it'd be something more along the lines of Lucius calling him a "pathetic coward" if he hesitates just the slightest bit. And I think he would hesitate. In fact, I think ultimately he'd decide not to do it.

If Rowling does want Draco to end up as one of the good guys, I can see her using a scene like this as the turning point. Then again, maybe she'll use it to make him lose all chance of redemption. I hope not. :(

Would Draco change sides? This is a question that has to be answered, and isn't as clear as we would like it. Rowling has stated very clearly that he and Harry will never work together, but that doesn't mean they won't eventually come to the same side. The problem is that we know only so much about him, and most of them are assumptions, or conclusions that we can only barely draw. He's arrogant, and dislikes the "correct" authority, but why?

From what I can see, his mentality is childish. Exposure to the world, and acceptance of it, is one of the things that builds age. However much Draco has seen of the world, he dismissed it before it seeped in. His mood changes, and his behavior with it, but he still has the backings of a five year old. He might for the rest of his life, at this point. It might be too late for him to make up for the time he lost. But these are all conclusions that we've drawn. He's said that he hoped that Hermione would die, and seemed to enjoy the prospect - does that fit into the character we've given him? There's really no way of knowing.

I can see Draco killing someone, but I can also see him turning away. A hit-and-run Avada Kedavra is fathomable, because he probably wouldn't understand the whole of what was going on. If he watched torture, pleading and crying and moaning, could he? His opinion can only go so far. He probably doesn't understand the extent of this pain, and whether he could or could not stand the situation would be confirmation of his character.

^Draco definately doesn't know what he is getting into. It is the way he has been brought up, and his fathers influence on him. He hasn't really got control over what he does, it is all just an act, a front. And we all know what that situation is like

I agree that Malfoy doesn't know what he's getting himself into, I mean how could he? I'm expecting there to be an experience in the near future that makes him evaluate where he is going and what he wishes to do with his life. I think the experience could be the death of Malfoy Snr probably at the hands of Voldemort would make Malfoy re-evaluate his life.

Draco is really just a wizard world version of Dudley... a bully, who when faced with frightening situations run to their parents for protection.

In the forest Draco was hesitant at entering such a dangerous place.
according to Fred he nearly wet himself as he ran into their compartment on the Hogwarts express following the arrival of the Dementor.

Draco seems happy following Cedric's death, but is that just because he feels safe as his father is "well placed" in the inner circle to protect him. Or does he see a way of making his father proud of him.

Originally posted by Hederic (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=71881#post71881))
We all have to understand that we're talking about children.

Haven't you experienced highschool? Children can be cruel, but that does not make them evil. For example, my school was deciding who they were going to place in their debating team. And a subject came up, wether or not to give some kid the deathpenalty. And almost everyone was for it. They were like "Whatever". Instead of debating over morals, they debated over the money and economics of the deathpenalty. None of them (Even the one defending the boy against the deathpenalty) were the least interested in how the boy was brainwashed. They didn't understand how serious brainwashing is, it effects the way you think, the way you analize things, that's why you can't cure yourself. Also, none of them were appalled with the deathpenalty, they didn't understand death, how it is very very final.

I'm sure that Draco doesn't understand either...


How old were they?

And I dont think you can make a cut-off statement like "kids of 14-15 don't understand death and its rammifications" coz different children will. I dont think there's any chance Neville can not grasp the concept of a family torn apart by a Dark Wizard, and, seeing as how his parents have very little chance of recovery, it's possible he wishes they'd been killed outright - they've been suffering on and on for around 13 years now. Nor would anyone argue that Harry has no idea what effects killing people can have.

These are just two characters who happen to be living in the aftermath, so they get it and have done for years. Teen depression and suicide are facts of life. I know at least 2 people who only decided actually they want to live while just beginning to try to kill themselves. I also know a girl who tried to kill herself at 15, didnt know if she wanted to live or not, if she could promise not to try again... went back to school then about 6 months later decided she couldnt cope and admitted herself to a facility for mental health... think she was there for 9 months. This girl is really pretty, smart, funny, a tallented artist and writer... She's one of the nicest people I know, and great to be around, and she couldnt see that. she had no self-confidence whatsoever so none of this mattered to her when the push came to the crunch.

I myself tried to kill myself when I was 16. I knew what I was doing. People have asked me "arent you glad that you're still alive?" coz I am a much happier person than I was before coz it made me come to terms with and accept me. The truth of the matter is, I dont know. Yeah, I'm ok now, reasonably happy, etc. But if I'd succeeded and sunk into nothingness, the only thing I'd have regretted was hurting my friends and family. It was what I wanted. I struggled with the decision for 6 years so I had thought it through pretty well. I understood that if I succeeded, I wouldnt be coming back. I didnt want to fail.

Back to HP-dom!

I dont think Draco's been personally touched by death. Yeah, everyone was kinda shook up when Cedric died but did Draco and Cedric exchange more than 3 words ("Detention, NOW!" ":censored:")? I dont think it's that he doesnt understand death. He knows its permanent and the end (unless you become a ghost). He knows that people feel bereavement. He understands these concepts but he's never felt them. I dont think he's a paticularly sensitive or empathic person so he just cant relate to them. Does that mean he could look someone in the eye and cast a spell to torture them to death without understanding:
"This will make me a murderer. If they find out and I get caught, it's Azkaban. Or maybe death for me too. After this, I have to kill this mans wife and child, over there, crying in the corner. I am going to hurt their (extended) family and friends and they wont ever understand why - they cant seeing as this Muggle family was targetted at random. They wont recover from this. People who I went to school with would never forgive me if they find out. My own mother will probably turn away from me and decide I'm just like my father. Is that what I really want? He's a cruel, heartless man. He cares more for Voldemort than me - he's using me as a killing machine for Voldemort, after all. Do I want to destroy my humanity? Become as cold as my father is? My father's powerful, yes... but do I want to be like him?"

It's possible. If we knew more about how much a Death Eater would have filtered to their children, on Voldemort and his reign in particular - if they filtered any of it through - it'd be easier for us to decide. On what they do and how they're treated in particular. I doubt that anyone in the wizarding world isn't aware that Voldemort was a widespread murderer with a merry band of mini-murderers, even if they skit around the topic. Kids would know. A number of Harry's classmates seemed to be familiar with Avada Kedavra; who can say they wouldn't be familiar with this?

The problem is...does Voldemort protect his followers? Doesn't he? Or does following him, doing what he orders you do to, and the knowledge of all these Dark Arts, lead to some protection? Did Pettigrew have reason to believe he'd be safer as a Death Eater, or was it a question of might versus might? And either way, do the kids know? After a "dark" period, after Voldemort, the Dark Arts seem to have died down a bit.

How much the kids know plays a part in other things. Draco holds great disdain for Muggles, Muggle-borns, but...that doesn't mean he'll be able to kill them. And it doesn't mean he won't be. Does he know that they're people as he is? He's sheltered, now. He'd be uneasy at the least with killing - he's not brave, as hermiones mum pointed out, but he spoke of being glad of Hermione's death. Boast, or flat truth? I can't say. I guess that's what most of our thought right now boils down to. What I do know is that Draco definetely has the capability to be capable of killing someone.

I think he does know muggle-borns are people too, as are muggles. Him trying to point out to his father that Hermione is the cleverest witch THERE, so she's beaten everyone, not just him, points to this but also will increase his dislike of her - by being so smart she makes him look stupid/ lazy in his father's eyes. His father's opinion matters a lot.

As to whether or not he's capable of murder, what do you judge that on?

He thinks of them as human, but lesser to him still. That difference may be enough, and it may not. His father's opinion matters, it seems, but he seems to have a generally fragile ego, in which case being dressed down in general would have a bad effect, and his father is only slightly more important.

His capability of murder, in my opinion, is based on all sorts of things: how safe he'll be should he do it, quick and painless deaths versus long and torturous, just how far that difference stretches and how much that matters, if he knows what Death Eaters did and can accept it or if it's something he never thought about, if he's still innocent or if he just doesn't know the whole of what's going on outside. How far is it from "You'll be next, Mudbloods!" and "Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well -- second -- Diggory was the f[irst]" to killing someone himself? Those seem to hint that he understands and doesn't care, but he could be hiding. He's growing up, is changing, and will change more. I'm less certain of his character than I was five minutes ago.

Originally posted by JenBluffheid (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=5979#post5979))
In future books, I think we will learn more about the Malfoys. In my opinion, Draco is good. He's just trying to impress his father. He's plastering fake evilness into his emotions. He and Harry will probably have to work together to defeat the Dark Lord.
By reading several fanfics, it is quite possible that Lucius bullies Draco. Of course, these are just fanfics, but there are truth surrounding them.

~Jen.

but if he were just pretending to be evil around his father then why would he act like that at school? I think Malfoy though will end up stilll evil untill the end then see the errors of his ways like snape did. Does anyone else think that Snape will be a bit cold towards malfoy after the fourth book?

I agree with Tarawyn. He'd murder after weighing the pros and cons for himself but then he is also a hothead so who knows. It would depend on how little or much he matures in the coming books.

Saying anything for certain on this one (other than that he is a little prick) is tricky.

Malfoy is a coward, that is so obvious. When the blastened screwts were on the rampage who was leading the run for hagrids Cabin, in the forbidden forest who ran way screaming when Voldermort came and after he had been turned in to a ferret he was twitching and all scared! So then he might just have gone to the side where he knew he didn't have to feel the mercilous wrath of Voldermort or the anger of his father. It's obvious his father has alot of influence on him. He's always going my father this and my father that, I wonder how warm that relationship is tho, lucius malfoy seems kinda cold.

On the other hand, Draco's good qualities:


Ok I give up! But as a reason to go to DD for protection (relying on him knowing that Moody was Barty Crouch Jr), none of the adults on the good side have ever turned him into a bouncing ferret or used an unforgivable curse on him

Originally posted by miri (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=201651#post201651))
On the other hand, Draco's good qualities:


Ok I give up! But as a reason to go to DD for protection (relying on him knowing that Moody was Barty Crouch Jr), none of the adults on the good side have ever turned him into a bouncing ferret or used an unforgivable curse on him

yes but none of the adults on the good side would kill him if he didn't come over now would they and all on the adults dark side would

It would make his homelife a bit difficult... "So have you signed up for the DE's yet? It wont take long, you can spare half an hour from your studying. Besides which, I saw you practicing Quidditch with Goyle yesterday for 2 hours! I dont know why you bother he's so slow the snitch could sit in his hand for 5 minutes and he wouldnt notice. You did win every point didnt you? Anyway, I can give you the Dark Mark myself you know so we can do it tonight when Crab's father is here as a witness. The Dark Lord's getting impatient - I told him you'd be interested when he first returned and you've yet to meet him. I invited him to dinner tonight too but he was busy so he's coming next wednesday. But tonight, no excuses, right? After dinner, we initiate you. It doesnt matter if you concentrate on studying until after you get your N.E.W.T.S. your education is important to me but having more of our members at Hogwarts - especially bright ones like you - is a high priority of the Datk Lord's. Besides, you wouldnt want him to think you're on the OTHER side, would you? *laugh*"

poor Draco doesnt really have a choice! Lol, which do you think will scare him more - the idea of making a decision or the idea of having a brand-like wound?

Here's a question,if he had the chance to kill hermione
do you think he would do it?And at the world cup why wasnt he
helping?I think he really was trying to warn hermione.

well he wasnt afraid when the followers of Voldemort were making people float on air.

He was probably just told to stay back by Lucius.

What scares me is that 3 of the death eaters are Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, and theres a new generation of Malfoy, Crabbe and Gole right in Hogwarts. Draco may be at a turning point. In the course of the 4 books he was like a schoolyard bully - but at the end of book 4 he gave a downright threat. Draco may indeed be turning to the dark side, but if he understands what he's getting into - no, i don't think so. He's been brainwashed by his father.

that is because his father is a death eater, he knows he's safe. I don't think Draco has it in him to kill anyone yet, but he might later on.

I think his mother will be built up a bit. The fact he's protective of her intruiges me. To me, it suggests maybe she has more of an influence on him on a deeper level, and Narcissa wasnt at the DE gathering even though Lucius was...

Could his mummy be a good guy masquerading as the cold wife of a cold man? And, when Lucius is away but Draco's home, talks to him about things like right and wrong, honour, bravery, loyalty, love, compassion... those details that seem to be hidden. Maybe Lucius is a wifebeater? Do you reckon something like that could be covered by a kids' book? If he is, maybe Narcissa pretends to be one person to the general public, and tells Draco to act like he agrees with everything his father says too, in case word gets back to him coz they're both scared of him. After all Crabbe and Goyle arent exactly the smartest people around - if they said something to their fathers and they repeated it to Lucius...

I dont know; it might seem a bit far-fetched. Especially as Snape was bad, is now good, seems bad, yet has subtly saved Harry's life (in his opinion so including going to the screaming shack) a good few times... and he's plausibly going to be able to continue spying for DD...

I think the whole Malfoy family is afraid. When it comes to muggle torture, they pride themselves and brag about it. But when it comes to killing other wizards, they might be a little hesitant. When Voldemort fell from power, he denied that he associated with him. I think Draco is the same scared person his father is. He will do whatever Voldemort wants because it is the only way he will stay alive. He told Harry that he chose the loosing side. Well, what is the only other option?

I just had a really creepy thought... The kids of the death eaters go to school with Harry. What Voldemort uses one of them to get into the school to get to Harry!

I'm sure Dumbledore will be keeping an extra eye on Harry as well as the kids of the alleged death eaters. Parents don't come to Hogwarts on a normal basis and when they do Dubledore is with the. So I don't really think that they could successfully use there sons to get at Harry. Especially since Harry knows that there parents are death eaters, I'm sure he will be on his guard around them.

There's a thread about this somewhere... think it's in thre Great Hall...

Hogwarts & Death-eaters' children

I dont know how to link to it but that's the title. It's in the Great Hall and the last post was March 3rd.

Just because, in a time of peace, Draco says stuff, doesnt mean he'll stick by it. I think he's going to die. If he joins the DEs, I think they'll endanger him. If he sides with DD, he'll either be killed by his parents/ their friends or be kicked out of home and have the purse strings cut until he sees *sense*. Also, He might lose Crabbe and Goyle as friends and be totally isolated. he's taught them much about bullying...

Just because the decision will be hard doesn't mean Draco doesn't have a choice.
Percy will have more family conflict than Draco. He possibly has to choose between his career and his family.

I'm sure whatever Draco decides, he will know what he is doing. Although I don't personally believe that Drace knows just how deep his father is into the wole Voldemort situation. Right now I really see Draco as all talk. When it comes to action, I don't think he is there yet.

That's true.
He might not know the torture Voldemort puts on his servants that fail him. He sees his father as a big shot himself because he didn't grow up during Voldemort's reign.
Lucius probably gets more freedom than the other followers but he's still under Voldemort's control (at least is appears to be so right now).

I think the fact that Lucius kept up active muggle-undermining and instilled the *virtues* of pure-bloods into his son will be looked upon favorably by Voldemort. I dont think he expected them to carry on without him, especially seeing as they seemed to be organised into diddy cells, with people just not knowing people outside those were also DEs. And I dont think Voldy expected them to suffer unnecessarily, so while denouncing him in his lifetime would have meant death, not acknowledging their DE history in public, or turning themselves in to the MoM was acceptable behaviour.

I think BCjr was *the most faithful of all* because he held on to his beliefs even in Azkaban, even while locked up at home for x years, as soon as he was given an opportunity to help, he was happy to... wait a sec - wasnt BCjr given the Dementor's kiss? Ppl were saying he was talking about the Lestranges... sorry! I'd just assumed little Crouch was the most faithful of all but I'm wrong, arent I?

I've been wondering if Draco would ever get the Death Eater tat. I think he would in maybe his 6th or 7th year when he's old enough to make the decision for himself. However, I do see a turncoat in him and he may have to help Harry whether it may be to save his own skin or to genuinely save the day.

Sample sitch of when Harry finds out:

Draco and Harry come to a confrontation. Draco's standing in Harry's way (Prehaps someone(s) have been taken hostage by Voldemort, etc). Harry tries to talk Draco into helping him. "You don't have as many allies as you may think, Potter. This is where you stop." Then maybe physical fight that rips Draco's sleeve or he openly reveals it and there it is in all its glory.

so what's y'all's thoughts on this?

Draco as a turncoat would be nice. But he's pretty much what's going on in Slytherin House. Hogwarts would lose that factionalized feel if he joined with Harry, I think.

It's highly possible that Draco will fall in line with the dark side. Now that Voldimort is back, he will most likely be looking for new blood and Draco is a good canadate for the group.

I think Draco could be chosen by Voldermort to be a DE. Lucius is certainly a real dark arts person. Maybe Voldermort will take him on so that he has a loyal servant al; ready for the next generation of death eaters.

I see it as possible, but if it happens you can count on another turn most likley in book 7. I think in the end Draco will be good. Its just another way JK will show us that its truly ourslelfs that determine who we are not out partentage.

Yes, but I think he'll be as his father expects him first, then realize that's not who he really is/wants to be.

I think it's more likely that, for example, Nott's child will turn out good. Malfoy is Slytherin's leader, pretty much, at Hogwarts.

I dont think Malfoy will turn good, even if he does save Harry in some occassion. I think his roots are bad

Draco's been characterized as evil and a dark arts student. He's interested in the branch of magic and is a lot like his father. At the Quidditch World Cup, he was laughing at what was going on. This one incident, to me, says that Draco isn't going to go good to easily, if at all. Thus far, it's a sure thing that he will join the Dark Arts.

Draco is more evil than his father in my opinion. He showed no respect for cedrics death.

I think Draco has a chance to be good. I said this in another thread, but I will say it again; I think Dumbledore talking about choosing what's right rather than what's easy refers to Draco, and I think Draco will choose what's right. Draco's the ideal rival in my mind, he's led a complicated life; being brought up by unloving parents who want him to succeed at everything and be the best, not to mention the fact that his father works for the Dark Lord. He was probably punished (physically) when he was younger if he showed a lot of emotion or did something wrong. And why would he care, after all that, that Cedric is dead, his father used to kill loads of people. Anyway, I think in the end he will decide to be good and set aside his jealousy for Harry.

I think JKR has been drawing a lot of parallels between Harry's generation and the Marauders' generation and may use that to show how people's decisions shape their own future. For example, Peter and Neville have a lot of similarities so maybe Neville's staying on the good side could show that Peter had the ability to do that too. Snape and Draco seem to have a lot of similarities, so JKR might use that to show how their choices were different. It really could go either way, with Draco never choosing to be a Death Eater at all, or with him never turning back.

dang I was going to say that. I Also think Draco will be a repeat of Snape. I personally would love to see draco as a Death Eater, a totally bad boy in the wizard world. though I don't know if Draco would do well as a death eater, he seems like a self serving spoiled brat to be a follower of Voldie.

Well, as the conversation seems to have changed to Draco's likelihood of "turning bad" I'm going to merge this thread with an existing topic entitled Does Malfoy really know what he's getting into? (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288)

If another admin/mod thinks these threads should remain separate, please resplit the threads. :)

I think that Draco is a lot of talk. I think that Draco thinks this is all a game, and his Daddy has all the influence and will handle everything for Draco. I can see a very ignorant Draco suddenly being shown what it REALLY means to be a DE, and while I think he won't initially have the nerve to do it on his own free will, I think the burden of his father, his reputation in Slytherin, and his dislike of the trio will turn him to the Dark Arts. Draco seems to be more about saving his own skin, not sticking his neck out to protect or save others, or to stick up for his true beliefs and feelings either. Perhaps in the end, we'll see Draco break down before Harry in the end, sobbing for forgiveness, confessing he only did terrible things because he didn't have the nerve to say no to his father, and things of that sort. Oh, that was totally hypothetical, but still very funny to me. I love the idea of Draco grovelling.:elaugh:

of caurse he's all talk thats how draco is. His dad already is pressuring him (the whole he needs to get better grades and such) he seems to pressure Draco a bit to much. Draco obviously looks up to his father and has real pride in who his father is. He probably wants to become just like him it's amazing the influence. But Draco is just so arrogant, if he became a DE he would get the most tremendous wake up call it would be scary. I mean what would Crabbe and Goyle be able to do against Voldie especially if they are one of his followers. I think he will hate being a death eater and eventually sto because of how awful it is. he'll probably end up hating Voldie in the end, but he has to feel his wrath before and see how he treats his followers not just his enimies.

I'm afraid that Draco's wake-up call will involve his mother, who he seems to be protecting. She may be killed as a "punishment" of some kind to Lucius for his disloyalty to Voldie.
This will open Draco's eyes to the error of his ways like nothing else could.

Barbara I think that it would be Draco becoming a death Eater and than his mom getting killed because he was to arrogant around Voldermort

I don't think Draco is that thick...or that brave. To be arrogant around Voldemort is like kicking a sleeping dragon in the nose, you're just as dead either way.

Draco has not been presented as an evil character. He has been presented as a mischievous character who has to grapple with his jealousy of Harry's popularity and success as a wizard.

I can only imagine how he must view the Gryffindors, and Harry in particular.

Harry breaks a lot of the school's rules yet he is never punished. Teachers are constantly making exceptions for him, and that kindness is not extended to the other students of the school. No matter how many times Harry breaks a rule, he's always praised for it, gets extra points for it, and gains popularity for it.

Draco, on the otherhand, will always be considered evil by the other students, because he is in Slytherin. Everything that he does is suspected. He could never get away with anything, unlike Harry.

Granted, Draco has yet to try and do something good, something that is worthy of praise. Instead, he has been playing pranks on Harry and Co. since first year.

The point I'm trying to make is that Draco probably feels that it is unjust that one student gets treated special by everyone, as if Harry can do no wrong. Himself, however, will always be suspected, will always be prejudged as being a dark wizard because he practices dark magic and so on.

I have to stop here. Maybe I'll come back and add something tonight.

Well, I'm sure this is very much how Draco sees Harry and himslef. It's completely wrong, though.

Draco gets away with a lot of things. Especially if Snape is close at hand. Harry gets punished loads of times in the books for breaking rules. When he does not gets punished is either because he doesn't get caught (and to be honest, Draco doesn't know about most of those either) or because he ends up rescuing the school/world. :)

In Snapes class, Harry can't even get by with breathing without getting punished. :)


And Draco is not 'mischevious'. Neither is he evil. Draco is a spoiled egoistic brat, who automatically dislikes everybody that doesn't do exactly what Draco tells them to.

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=246295#post246295))
I don't think Draco is that thick...or that brave. To be arrogant around Voldemort is like kicking a sleeping dragon in the nose, you're just as dead either way.

he is that prideful. He doesn't really understand what Voldermort really is because his family have not suffered by the hand of Voldermort. he wouldn't be able to grovel and be a servant like the other death eaters because he grew up very proud and he is to used to being "the man" so to speak. I mean A guy with goonies to boss around won't much like becoming a goonie himself and would have alot of trouble adjusting. I think though that his father would teach him respect, put it wouldbe really harsh.

Well, if that is the case, we will just see some good ol' Natural Selection [survival of the fittest (and smartest)] at work in the story then, won't we?

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=246848#post246848))
Well, if that is the case, we will just see some good ol' Natural Selection [survival of the fittest (and smartest)] at work in the story then, won't we?

um I'm sorry but I don't really get what you mean, what does this have to do with survival of the fittest.

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=246464#post246464))
Draco has not been presented as an evil character. He has been presented as a mischievous character who has to grapple with his jealousy of Harry's popularity and success as a wizard....

Those are good points, Perdita, but then how does he fit Snape's treatment of both Harry and himself into that worldview? Here's at least one teacher who doesn't favor Potter: quite the opposite.

Hi Rowena,

The relationship between Malfoy and Snape is still unclear to me. I have not been able to figure out if their relationship is simply a teacher and a favourite student, or if Snape carries the image of a father-figure, and Malfoy the charge. What is clear is that in Malfoy’s eyes, Snape is a fair teacher for the reason that he does punish Harry for infractions, even when the infractions are ridiculously contrived and outrightly unreasonable. In Malfoy’s eyes, Snape forces Harry to make up for all the times that he’s broken the rules and gotten away with it. If we want to make a comparison, it would appear that Harry has the majority of the teacher and students of Hogwarts behind him, excepting the Slytherins and Snape. Malfoy, however, really only has the Slytherins and his housemates behind him.

I believe that this is part of the reason why he is constantly competing with Harry, challenging him. He wants to show people that he can be just as good a wizard, or flier, or seeker and so on. It seems as if Malfoy wants to prove his prowess to the school, not to gain his father’s praise, but to build up his own self-image.

As much as Malfoy is a racist and is constantly insulting muggle-borns (namely Hermione), he must also be on the receiving end of prejudice and discrimination. His father is a famed suspect-Death Eater. Naturally, people will look at Malfoy and assume that he is involved in his father’s dark activities, that he is practicing dark magic, and that he is going to join Voldemort.

When I try to think of examples of Malfoy’s acts of malice, I cannot think of any that are malicious for the sake of being so. That is why I would not characterize his character as being evil. He is proud, jealous, arrogant, lacks courage and is manipulative, but he is not evil.

Perhaps in a few days, I might write out a detailed analysis of his behaviour, incident by incident.

I think that Draco is just an spoiled child trying to play hard. I also agree that he doesn't realized how dangerous can be trying to follow his father steps in the dark arts. I can almost imagine Draco's face (scared to death) when Voldemort turns against his father for betraying him.
I think he's going to be as much in danger as any of the fantastic trio and it will be joining them in the end.

I doubt Voldemort will turn against Draco's father. Draco's dad has to many ways of being helpfull to Voldemort. He has quite an influence on Fudge. Draco's father seems to tell his son everything. I wouldn't be surprised if Draco was asked to lure Harry off the school grounds. All it would take is to challenge harry to a duel in the forbidden forest.

I seriously think there would be some big punishmet to Lucious's denying his relatiosn with Voldemor, the way Voldemor beholds power over his folowers is thru the fear he inflirt on their minds. He can't let Malfoy get along with it so easy, Voldie needs to give an example to the others. For me it's kind of these: either you are with me or against me.

If these happens it could be very significant in Draco's life it could bring some amount of cruel reality to his life and make him decide to switch bands or he could try to search for Voldemort favours by making some kind of sacryfice to prove his loyalty to Voldie. In this scenario it could be as you say used by Voldemor to get acces to Harry.

I'm not very good with the spelling, but English is my second language so please forgive any mistakes.

Nel, your English is better than some who speak it as a native language.
I salute your efforts in learning the language so well.

I agree with you that Voldemort uses intimidation and threats to control his followers. Malfoy is in a very dangerous situation at this time. Voldemort is displeased with him so he better be careful.

Originally posted by jaded (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=6004#post6004))
Well, we've seen Lucius bullying Malfoy when Harry got caught on Knockturn Alley, saying that how good was Draco if he couldn't beat a Muggle-born girl (Hermione). Actually I think that's interesting, the Draco could be good. We've never really considered it. He is just a kid, but that's easy to forget because of how much he bullies and acts as though he's older.


Will Jaded, or anyone else who is interested, explain in more detail why you think that Malfoy acts older than his age?

I always thought that he was very immature. By immature, I mean in the mischievous behaviour sense. I don't mean that he is emotionally or intellectually under-developed.

*****
EDITED TO ADD

Originally posted by Dracofan4ever (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=201715#post201715))
Here's a question,if he had the chance to kill hermione
do you think he would do it?And at the world cup why wasnt he
helping?I think he really was trying to warn hermione.


That’s very interesting! This is what I thought at first, but then I began to read it differently…drastically different.

GOF, Ch 9 The Dark Mark, 110-11

He seemed to be watching the scene on the campsite through a gap in the trees…’Hadn’t you better be hurrying along, now? You wouldn’t like her spotted, would you?’

He nodded at Hermione, and at the same moment, a blast like a bomb sounded from the campsite, and a flash of green light momentarily lit the trees around them.

‘What’s that supposed to mean?’ said Hermione defiantly.

‘Granger, they’re after Muggles,’ said Malfoy. ‘D’you want to be showing off your knickers in mid-air? Because if you do, hang around…they’re moving this way, and it would give us all a laugh.’

‘Hermione’s a witch,’ Harry snarled.

‘Have it your own way, Potter,’ said Malfoy, grinning maliciously. ‘If you think they can’t spot a Mudblood, stay where you are.’

‘You watch your mouth!’ shouted Ron. Everybody present knew that ‘Mudblood’ was a very offensive term for a witch or wizard of Muggle parentage.

‘Never mind, Ron,’ said Hermione quickly, seizing Ron’s arm to restrain him as he took a step towards Malfoy.

There came a bang from theother side of th tres that was louder…

‘Scare easily, don’t they?’ he (Malfoy) said lazily. ‘I suppose your daddy told you all to hide? What’s he up to – trying to rescue the Muggles?’…

‘Oh, come on,’ said Hermione, with a disgusted look at Malfoy, ‘lets’s go and find the others.’

‘Keep that big bushy head down, Granger,’ sneered Malfoy.

I only noticed this recently when I was looking for more evidence of a growing friendship between H/Hr. What struck me about this scene is that it almost sounds like Malfoy is trying to tell them to get away to safety before they get hurt. He seems to be paying extra attention to Hermione.

[list=1]
The first time he speaks to the group, he tells the boys that they should get away from there so that Hr. doesn’t get caught by the death eaters. It sounds like he’s appealling to their male chivalrous (forgive me here) obligation to protect their friend.
When Hermione addresses him, he replies by calling by her name first, then he calls her a ‘Muggle,’ not the usual ‘Mudblood.’ He sounds almost sincere.
He makes a sexual comment when he talked about her knickers being revealed, and that he wants to see them so that he could have a good laugh. This is no doubt a very derogatory statement.
When the trio don’t seem to want to leave the premises, he elevates his language to use the word ‘Mudblood,’ as if he is trying to anger them into leaving just to get away from him.
After Hermione tries to drag the boys away, and fails, he goes back to taunting Ron. In doing so, he also reverted back to using the term ‘Muggle’ instead of ‘Mudblood.’ Again, it seems like he’s trying to annoy the hell out of Harry and Ron so that they’ll leave and find shelter.
Theire encounter with Malfoy ends with him telling Hermione once again to stay down and be careful not to get caught. [/list=1]
Now, if Malfoy wanted the three of them to get into big trouble with the death eaters, he could very well have alerted the death eaters to the trio’s location. Mind you, this could have made him look good in front of his father , possibly even the other death eaters. Not only did he not do this, he tried several times, using several tactics to get the trio to leave the area. By using non-offensive language to address Hermione, he is also trying to show her how serious he is. He is not trying to antagonize her or harass her, he is trying to get her to listen to him and his advice.

Throughout the four books, Malfoy has had many opportunities in the classes that Gryffindors share with the Slytherins to do physical harm to Hermione. However, I don’t remember him ever doing anything like that. All his pranks were directed at Harry and Hagrid. His taunts were more often targetting Ron than Hermione. I’m not saying that he has not behaved cruelly to others, but I cannot recall a time when he deliberately tried to hurt Hermione, in spite of his supposed hatred of ‘Mudbloods.’

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=249223#post249223))
Will Jaded, or anyone else who is interested, explain in more detail why you think that Malfoy acts older than his age?

I always thought that he was very immature. By immature, I mean in the mischievous behaviour sense. I don't mean that he is emotionally or intellectually under-developed.

*****
EDITED TO ADD



That’s very interesting! This is what I thought at first, but then I began to read it differently…drastically different.

GOF, Ch 9 The Dark Mark, 110-11

He seemed to be watching the scene on the campsite through a gap in the trees…’Hadn’t you better be hurrying along, now? You wouldn’t like her spotted, would you?’

He nodded at Hermione, and at the same moment, a blast like a bomb sounded from the campsite, and a flash of green light momentarily lit the trees around them.

‘What’s that supposed to mean?’ said Hermione defiantly.

‘Granger, they’re after Muggles,’ said Malfoy. ‘D’you want to be showing off your knickers in mid-air? Because if you do, hang around…they’re moving this way, and it would give us all a laugh.’

‘Hermione’s a witch,’ Harry snarled.

‘Have it your own way, Potter,’ said Malfoy, grinning maliciously. ‘If you think they can’t spot a Mudblood, stay where you are.’

‘You watch your mouth!’ shouted Ron. Everybody present knew that ‘Mudblood’ was a very offensive term for a witch or wizard of Muggle parentage.

‘Never mind, Ron,’ said Hermione quickly, seizing Ron’s arm to restrain him as he took a step towards Malfoy.

There came a bang from theother side of th tres that was louder…

‘Scare easily, don’t they?’ he (Malfoy) said lazily. ‘I suppose your daddy told you all to hide? What’s he up to – trying to rescue the Muggles?’…

‘Oh, come on,’ said Hermione, with a disgusted look at Malfoy, ‘lets’s go and find the others.’

‘Keep that big bushy head down, Granger,’ sneered Malfoy.

I only noticed this recently when I was looking for more evidence of a growing friendship between H/Hr. What struck me about this scene is that it almost sounds like Malfoy is trying to tell them to get away to safety before they get hurt. He seems to be paying extra attention to Hermione.

[list=1]
The first time he speaks to the group, he tells the boys that they should get away from there so that Hr. doesn’t get caught by the death eaters. It sounds like he’s appealling to their male chivalrous (forgive me here) obligation to protect their friend.
When Hermione addresses him, he replies by calling by her name first, then he calls her a ‘Muggle,’ not the usual ‘Mudblood.’ He sounds almost sincere.
He makes a sexual comment when he talked about her knickers being revealed, and that he wants to see them so that he could have a good laugh. This is no doubt a very derogatory statement.
When the trio don’t seem to want to leave the premises, he elevates his language to use the word ‘Mudblood,’ as if he is trying to anger them into leaving just to get away from him.
After Hermione tries to drag the boys away, and fails, he goes back to taunting Ron. In doing so, he also reverted back to using the term ‘Muggle’ instead of ‘Mudblood.’ Again, it seems like he’s trying to annoy the hell out of Harry and Ron so that they’ll leave and find shelter.
Theire encounter with Malfoy ends with him telling Hermione once again to stay down and be careful not to get caught. [/list=1]
Now, if Malfoy wanted the three of them to get into big trouble with the death eaters, he could very well have alerted the death eaters to the trio’s location. Mind you, this could have made him look good in front of his father , possibly even the other death eaters. Not only did he not do this, he tried several times, using several tactics to get the trio to leave the area. By using non-offensive language to address Hermione, he is also trying to show her how serious he is. He is not trying to antagonize her or harass her, he is trying to get her to listen to him and his advice.

Throughout the four books, Malfoy has had many opportunities in the classes that Gryffindors share with the Slytherins to do physical harm to Hermione. However, I don’t remember him ever doing anything like that. All his pranks were directed at Harry and Hagrid. His taunts were more often targetting Ron than Hermione. I’m not saying that he has not behaved cruelly to others, but I cannot recall a time when he deliberately tried to hurt Hermione, in spite of his supposed hatred of ‘Mudbloods.’

:clappy: Very well said!That's what I think to.But nobody seem's to think
he was trying to help,except you and me.

Ooh, Dracofan, I'm not so sure about that. I think that there are a lot of Felton fans around here who would jump to Draco's defense without any hesitation, if you catch my drift. ;D

And thank you for your compliment...but it really wasn't necessary to quote the entire essay, I'm so flattered! :D

Cheers!

Hey Perdita, that was a great analysis of that scene. True, Draco was still being his usual self, but reading between the lines, you know that he was being nice. I suppose that's as good as it gets.

I think it's Draco's upbringing that makes him so mean...even heartless. Everything he believes in, he learned from his father. Any hope of him seeing the light lies in his mother or Snape.

I he being nice, or is he just using the opportunity to say bad things about Hermione, that's the question. If he is being nice, why is he saying it in a very un-nice manner?
If he really wanted to be nice, couldn't he just say it in a nice manner?
And in what way is he trying to help by telling them to go further into the forest, when that is in fact exactly what they were doing when he saw them. It's not like he actually is helping, even if he is trying to.

And yes, of course his fault lie in the upbringing. Draco is a mean, insensitive brat because his parents are mean, insensitive brats.

Smartypants (I love that name!),

the thing is, if he all of a sudden turned all nice and concerned, would the Trio believe him? If he was trying to convince them to leave the area and run for cover, he has to do it in a convincing way. If my interpretation is correct, then he succeeded using the tactics he used. At least, they succeeded with Hermione, but less with Ron and Harry.

Let me reiterate that he went back and forth between calling Hermione by her name, by the term "muggle" and by by the racial slur "mudblood." Notice that he started off by calling her by her name. To me, that signals that he does have a shred of respect for this person.

I am not trying to suggest that Malfoy is a nice and charming boy who is abused by this father. What I'm saying is that Malfoy might be hiding some things, things that if they were revealed to the reader, he won't appear to be so evil and malicious anymore. He might even appear like a human, rather than simply like an archetype.

-----
Monoceros,

I am currently putting together an essay on Malfoy and Snape. Hopefully, it will be completed by Sunday so that I can post it up and get some feedback.

Cheers!

Malfoy might have a crush on hr but I think it would be very troubling to him. I mean liking someone your family (or even just father) hates is very hard to deal with, you wanna hate that person but apart of you just can't, Anyway at the World cup they were just playing around, I don't think the death eaters were after the trio and were just playing around. So there really wouldn't be a point in Draco alerting the death eaters of the trios where abouts.

I bet draco's father would have attacked herm if he found her!I mean
you know how much he hate's hermione,and the fact she's the
reason draco's second best at school!And yes I think he like's her,
it show's,like when he asked who she was going to the ball with,I
know he was rude but do you think he would come right out and say
'Who are you going to ball with?'?

Originally posted by Dracofan4ever (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=251277#post251277))
I bet draco's father would have attacked herm if he found her!I mean
you know how much he hate's hermione,and the fact she's the
reason draco's second best at school!And yes I think he like's her,
it show's,like when he asked who she was going to the ball with,I
know he was rude but do you think he would come right out and say
'Who are you going to ball with?'?

I think it is so tottally possible. Some people just seem to become attracted to people they are suposed to hate. Draco is suposed to hate mudbloods, and hermione even more because she is really smart and a friend of harry's. Though I think that if Draco likes hermione it's an unrequitted love.

I'm not so sure about Draco liking Hermione. I don't see it in him.
When Hermione slapped him in the face, I wonder what he thought of her. (That was one of my favorite moments!)

Peace! :)

We weren't told a lot about his reaction were we? Hmmmmm.

Originally posted by Perdita
Smartypants (I love that name!),

Thanks. :)

the thing is, if he all of a sudden turned all nice and concerned, would the Trio believe him?

The point is, why should he suddenly turn nice at all? How come he suddenly wants to help?

When a normally unfriendly person behaves in an unfriendly way, isn't it most likely that he simply is his usual self? Why invent a theory that says that he suddenly has gone all friendly for no apparent reason, but doesn't want to appear friendly, becuase people would get surprised? It's just unessecary complication. Unless of course, you somehow feel that you have to defend Draco, because you like the guys who plays him, or something. ;)

I'm quite sure he was just being his normal unfriendly bratty self. It's the easiest explanation for his behaviour.

If my interpretation is correct, then he succeeded using the tactics he used. At least, they succeeded with Hermione, but less with Ron and Harry.

They left, yes, but not so much out of fear, but to get away from Draco. :)

1. I think that Tom Felton has impeccable acting skills for someone his age. But I am not a Felton fan.

2. I am not defending Malfoy. I am trying to suggest different ways of reading his character, his actions and his motives.

I feel that Malfoy's character is not so straightforward as simply being a mean bully.

He has an inferiority complex, which compells him to put down his peers constantly to make himself feel better about who he is. Underneath that bully image, he is insecure, scared and resentful. He has shown this since book one.

I blelieve that there is a possibility that he is starting to realize how serious the Voldemort situation has become. He is not changing his character into a caring person. He is keeping up his bully attitude and image, concealing the side of him that has a conscience, which tells him that Harry and his friends are good, and that Voldemort and his father are bad.

He cannot openly defy his father, so he has to keep up his act of being the bully and the enemy.

I am not suggesting that he is a caring and nice person. I’m saying that there is more that meets the eye, and that I want to consider the different possibilities.

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=252574#post252574))
I feel that Malfoy's character is not so straightforward as simply being a mean bully.

He has an inferiority complex, [...] Underneath that bully image, he is insecure, scared [...] He has shown this since book one.


He has? In what way? I don't recognize any of this, to be honest. The only time I can remember him being scared is when he was turned into a ferret. :) Where does he show his insecurity? How come you interpret his bullying as an inferiority complex? I have never seen a bully with an inferiority complex, I think that is a myth. The people with inferiority complexes need to prove themselves and tend to be overarchievers.

I think Malfoys character is exactly as simple as it appears. He is a rich brat, who things he is better than other people. That explains all his actions perfectly

He has? In what way? I don't recognize any of this, to be honest. The only time I can remember him being scared is when he was turned into a ferret. Where does he show his insecurity? How come you interpret his bullying as an inferiority complex? I have never seen a bully with an inferiority complex, I think that is a myth. The people with inferiority complexes need to prove themselves and tend to be overarchievers.

Actually, there have been signs that he is insecure - for a start off he's jealous of Harry and tries to undermine him. Jealousy and envy usually suggest your not exactly happy about yourself although they are natural feelings that we all have.

Another example (cut & pasted from another post i made recently because i'm lazy):

No, i'm not crazy nor recently had a surprise lobotomy, i do actually think there is a sign of a different side to Draco displayed here that could effect whom he shall choose to side with later on. In a nutshell i think it displays an insecure side to him. He plays on that injury not only for the benefits of having his two enemy students do his Potions work for him abd having an inept teacher he depises sacked but also Draco was playing for the sympathy vote. I'd imagine he doesn't get that often or at all, and it shows insecurity because it's a pretty low place to stoop to get anyone to show remotely kind/friendly feelings towards him.

Yes, Draco is insecure i believe.

And i entirely disagree with you about bullies - they do have inferiorty complexes, they humiliate and undermine people to make themselves feel better, give them an ego boost. Draco is a classic bully in that and the fact that he is a coward.

I think Malfoys character is exactly as simple as it appears. He is a rich brat, who things he is better than other people. That explains all his actions perfectly

I do not accept that. If that is indeed J.K.'s intentions with the character then i would be very disappointed. Yes, i am redemptionista but hell even if he does join the dark side if he at least showed something beyond 'rich-shallow-brat' then i would accept it. I would not be too happy i admit but i could accept it. Try not to take characters too much at face value.

There are many hints that i have seen that suggest that he has in no way as straight forward as he seems. I could repost them if you want to actually trawl through my theories, but i completely understand if you don't.

Ok, that's my two Knuts.

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=252598#post252598))
He has? In what way? I don't recognize any of this, to be honest. The only time I can remember him being scared is when he was turned into a ferret. :) Where does he show his insecurity?[...]

Smartypants,

I'm working on it. Check back in a couple of days.


*****
EDIT

She's Crafty,

please post your interpretations. I'd like to see what you have, and that way, we can avoid reptition.

Thanks.

My pleasure Perdita - be warned, this is LONG:

What, that crazy She's Crafty posting again on Draco's behalf? Merlin help us...


I'm sure that's reaction! But again i plead that you stay with me on this, i've a loooot to say, and i spent an entire sick day thinking it up and flicking through the books to back up my arguements!


First of all, let me make it absolutely clear that i am not any of the following: A Tom Felton groupie who thinks Draco could be redeemed because Tom is a hottie. I am not a Draco groupie in any particular sense and neither am i a 'poor Draco is a wickle abused child, its so not his fault he's evil...'


What i am is an aspiring writer/college student and why i believe Draco could be redeemed is well...just read the d**n post!


As someone who does hope to be a writer some day i spend a lot of time, as part of my learning/A Level courses, analysing texts. I look routinely at charactirization methods and the sulbties of what may seem a straight forward character at first. For example at the moment i'm looking at A Streetcar Named Desire and even the reprehensible Stanley is not entirely straight forward.


I'm explaining this so you know i'm not just taking bits of the HP books and making up a load of c**p just to back up my pro-redemptionista stance on Mr Malfoy. I am not looking at things the way i want to, but everyone has a different interpretation of things and this is merely mine. I'm sure other's are entirely different.


In short, i am looking at Draco's character from a writer's point of view (and i'm not using Faith as a pointer either). I have still come to the conclusion that Draco is redeemable. But whether he actually will be redeemed or even want to be remains to be seen. But i think there are strong hints that would definately pertain to side switching later on.


And they are (*drum role*)


------> His first meeting with Harry in Madam Malkin's.


Look at the dialogue carefully. Yes, he's being a snotty little ****, but look at what Draco is actually saying. The dig about Hufflepuff, the complaint about first years not being allowed brooms. To me that whole exchange screams "I'm trying to be wicked cool here!" He's seriously trying to impress Harry (and he does not know is identity here either). Draco is dismissive of Harry at the end though because Harry clearly isn't impressed at all. Another wizard with knowledge of Hufflepuff and the rule might well have been (or at least have agreed with him). Draco also boasts about his family's wealth, another 'look how cool i am' tactic. To me, and this entirely IMHO, i think it suggests very strongly that Draco does want friends, a good friend to talk to and joke with (in other words, the complete opposite of Crabbe and Goyle). It's all so typical of what a child, especially a rich one, would do to try and win someone's friendship and when Harry didn't go for it Draco immediately lost interest.


-----------> Borgin and Burkes and Lucius/Draco exchange.


Ok - we get immediately that Draco is jealous and resentful of Harry and voices this a lot if Lucius' 'you've told me this at least a hundred times' is anything to go by. Harry is everything Draco wants to be in terms of being famous and popular and seems to have achieved through a way Draco probably never even dreamed of - he's simply been a nice and unprejudiced person.


I think this is where parental influence has had a part to play. The reason i believe this is that Lucius has most likely past on the belief that money = power and popularity and maybe even fame and obviously that Mudbloods are completely inferior to pureblood wizards. therefore i think Draco just doesn't get why Harry is more popular and well liked than he and Hermione beat him in every exam. At this point i'd like to remind everybody that i do NOT hold Lucius entirely responsible for everything Draco has done/said. Draco should rightly be held accountable everthing he has chosen to do/say because in the end that it exactly what it was - his choice.


It's possible that when the time comes to choose a side, Malfoy might (reluctantly) side with Dumbeldore and by exstension Harry because in the end, it holds far more benefits - bearing in mind that Draco is an utter coward and would probably go with the side less liely to not only lose but also not likely to land him well and truly in it should it lose.


-----------> Trying to get Hagrid Sacked.


No, i'm not crazy nor recently had a surprise lobotomy, i do actually think there is a sign of a different side to Draco displayed here that could effect whom he shall choose to side with later on. In a nutshell i think it displays an insecure side to him. He plays on that injury not only for the benefits of having his two enemy students do his Potions work for him abd having an inept teacher he depises sacked but also Draco was playing for the sympathy vote. I'd imagine he doesn't get that often or at all, and it shows insecurity because it's a pretty low place to stoop to get anyone to show remotely kind/friendly feelings towards him.


There's also a point i will look at pertaining to how his father reacted to this incident (he didn't come and visit his son, just decided to de what Lucius obviously enjoys - bullying and intimidating people for his own benefit). But that's later.


-----------> His reaction to an insult to his mother.


I brought this up once before and it was refuted with a very good point - Malfoy probably reacted so angrily because an insult to his mother is an insult to his family and therefore him personally. But i've looked over this scene again and i'm not entirely convinced that is simply the case here. Look again. Harry and Ron just accused his father of being one of the wizards torturing the Muggles. It's accurate, but Draco doesn't really defend his father and i wonder why not. Lucius does a lot to cover his past evil tracks, don't you think he'd be royally ****** that his own son, far from strenuoslly denying this accusation and upholding the family honour he practically confirms it? But when Harry makes a snide crack about Narcissa Draco actually gets riled and threatens him? I think that suggests Draco has a bigger emotional attachment to his mother than his father. Lucius is only useful as a tool to threaten people with it would seem.


And one thing that pertains to all the books but is entirely IMHO and therefore can be completely disregarded altogether.


Now, i used to be sort of in the camp that Lucius is an abusive father, i at least believed it was a strong possibility.


This BTW, is physical abuse i'm speaking of, but i have actually come to the conclusion that it is not that at all - i believe Draco has suffered emtional abuse.


I don't think anyone for a second would think that Lucius is a loving father. To treat your children as a possession or simply as another person to dominate and control is emotional abuse. To treat a child with cold indifference and constantly put them down is emotional abuse. I personally feel there is a strong case to support my thoery that Draco has been emtonally abused by his father in at least one of these forms - look at Borgin and Burkes for instance, where he basically tells Draco he's lower than a Mudblood, which despite the ignorant racism behind that it's still not nice to be told. Also, when his arm was hurt by Buckbeak, Lucius shows not an iota of interest in Draco's well being, only that Hagrid will be punished for it. Typical rich arrogant ******* on a powertrip.


In conclusion, i do believe there is a strong chance of Draco being redeemed. I personally feel it would add so much to the character (effectively it would make him a contradiction). A character whom, nasty but funny quips aside, is too much a stereotypical school bully. Heck, even Voldie has layers! I know a lot of people believe Draco is a 'scratch the surface and you'll only get more surface' type but i simply cannot buy that J.K. would just create such a two dimensional villian like that. In fact i would be gravely disappointed in her if that turns out to be the case. Draco is not Iago (evil for the sake of it).


That's my two Knuts worth! Feel free to add yours!


Lordy, that was long!

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=252098#post252098))
We weren't told a lot about his reaction were we? Hmmmmm.

Now we werent,the one thing that buged me about that was that
he didnt do ANYTHING!Either he was shocked or he knew that he
had crossed the line because she was so upset.

I liked your posts Perdita, She's Crafty and smartypants. You've given me a lot to ponder over.

It could work either way at this point.
Draco was warning them but was he trying to help or intimidate? I agree he's jealous and insecure (more so than others).
Smartypants was also right to see him as a bully. He is horrible to people he sees as below him (Neville and Hagrid) as well as those he's jealous of.
He proved it his true feelings when he called Harry "Dumbledore's favourite boy again".
But it's own fault.

He would have had to change a lot from CoS to GoF to go from threats to hints.
Interesting example about him calling Hermione "muggle" and then later "mudblood" Perdita.
I'm not sure how to interpet that. But if he respects any of them it's grudingly. He has to accept Hermione is a talented witch whether he wishes to or not but I doubt he knows this himself.
He may have been scared to call her a 'mudblood' again until they "provoked" him to.

I personoly[sp] think you are right.Not that I'm taking anyone's side here.:p But, Malfoy can't be pure evil, right?:devil: He's just another human being right? [SIZE=4]Am I right? Answer me!!!!!!! :'(

Originally posted by snowy_HedwigGirl99 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=253211#post253211))
I personoly[sp] think you are right.Not that I'm taking anyone's side here.:p But, Malfoy can't be pure evil, right?:devil: He's just another human being right? [SIZE=4]Am I right? Answer me!!!!!!! :'(

no ones pure evil I don't even thinj Voldermort is pure evil, put due tpo life circumstances his mind has been warped and he has lost sigfht of right and wrong. Malfoy seems to also hacve a warped idea of the world, it may make him mean and stuff, but definetly not evil. I dunno why but for some odd reason I'm beinging to get a soft spot for the guy (the character, not the actor)

Hi She’s Crafty,

As I was reading your essay, I was comparing it with my notes. It is scary that our thoughts are almost exactly the same. Even some of the examples we used were the same, such as Mme Malkin’s Robe Shop.

I just want to reiterate and emphasize that I agree with your assessment of Lucius’ abuse as emotional, not physical.

Physical abuse leaves behind scars and marks. They are visible to the naked eye, and would draw attention. This is why I strongly believe that Lucius uses emotional abuse because it is not visible. After all, Lucius is supposed to be quite an important person in the MOM who has a high profile. It would not do for people to know that he beats his son. In fact, I think that he’d be shunned. Lucius is smart. He wouldn’t use physical force to terrorize his son. He’d use psychological terrorism instead.

Also, now this is really uncanny, whenever I read about people saying that Malfoy is evil, I automatically think of Iago from Much Ado About Nothing. I just found this very startling that we both thought of the same comparison. I agree with you that Malfoy is not evil for the sake of being evil. I doubt that he is truly evil at all.

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=253296#post253296))

I just want to reiterate and emphasize that I agree with your assessment of Lucius’ abuse as emotional, not physical.

Physical abuse leaves behind scars and marks. They are visible to the naked eye, and would draw attention. This is why I strongly believe that Lucius uses emotional abuse because it is not visible. After all, Lucius is supposed to be quite an important person in the MOM who has a high profile. It would not do for people to know that he beats his son. In fact, I think that he’d be shunned. Lucius is smart. He wouldn’t use physical force to terrorize his son. He’d use psychological terrorism instead.

ok so you think that Lucius is abusing Draco intentionally or untinttentionally? I think he's just puting alot of presure on Draco but that all. You could be on to something with the emontional abuse thing though.

Adamslove,

i believe that it is intentional. Lucius is a smart man. All his actions are deliberate and with purpose. Except in the case of Dobby's socks! ;)

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=253312#post253312))
Adamslove,

i believe that it is intentional. Lucius is a smart man. All his actions are deliberate and with purpose. Except in the case of Dobby's socks! ;)

if lucius is so smart than why does he have to bully his son emotinally and have to be in legue with Voldie?

I don't understand your query. Why wouldn’t he team up with Voldemort? He wants power, the terrorizing type. He can’t get that with Dumbledore, obviously. So why not Voldemort? Why not emotionally abuse someone? He can.

I don’t understand what your question is. Are you asking why doesn’t he take over the world by himself?

Because he want's power!And he's affarid that if he's not on voldemort's
side,voldemort will kill him.That's why I worry about draco,what if he decides not to be a death eater do you think that voldemort wont come after him?

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=253347#post253347))
I don't understand your query. Why wouldn’t he team up with Voldemort? He wants power, the terrorizing type. He can’t get that with Dumbledore, obviously. So why not Voldemort? Why not emotionally abuse someone? He can.

I don’t understand what your question is. Are you asking why doesn’t he take over the world by himself?

It's a statement hidden in a question. If he's so smart why can't he do things the good way instead of having to stoop to such um oh can't the right word umright now I'll go with underhanded tactics with his own son? If he were that smart he could find a better way.

What do you mean by "good way?"

What other way could he terrorize his son? Terror causes people to do what you want them to do, without questioning you or defying you.

I am still not quite sure what you're trying to say.

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=253396#post253396))
What do you mean by "good way?"

What other way could he terrorize his son? Terror causes people to do what you want them to do, without questioning you or defying you.

I am still not quite sure what you're trying to say.

I'm saying he can't be that smart if he has to terrorize his son to get him to obey him. And he can't be to smart if he is with Voldermort, at least not very wise.

Smart is not the same as wise.

Just because i know that doing x is wrong, and i can come up with five reasons why, that doesn't mean that i won't do it.

Some people know what is wrong, and do it anyway. There are a lot of reasons for this.

- easy way out
- forced to
- thinks that there might be some advantage in the end
- to please someone else
- don't want to make changes to one's own world view, however flawed it may be.
- weak conscience
- received poor guidance
- mistrusting the wrong people
- other

Draco probably THINKS he knows what he is getting into, but I'm pretty sure he has been "shielded" from the less savory aspects of serving Voldemort. Has he ever seen his father kiss the hem of anyone's robes? I doubt it.

No.

Originally posted by She's Crafty (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=252653#post252653))
There are many hints that i have seen that suggest that he has in no way as straight forward as he seems. I could repost them if you want to actually trawl through my theories, but i completely understand if you don't.


Well, from what you have posted above I suspect that the many hints rather is interpretation of happenings, that although they don't contradict anything, they aren't very supported either.

Fopr example: It doesn't say anwhere in the books that Draco is trying to get sympathy from people. His actions are described, but not his thoughts. I don't see any obvious hints that he is playing toget sympathy. He MAY be doing that, but he may just as well only do it to aggravate Harry.

The only time we get to see Malfoy without Harry being there is in book two. Well, Harry was there, but malfoy didn't know. And he is not nice there either. He tells of "Crabbe" and "Goyle" (although it's Harry and Ron) for being slow (which is true, but still not nice), and he want to help the heir of Slytherin get rid of mudbloods. So he doesn't act any differently, or have any different opinions, when he is only with friends.

So I don't think he is putting up a mask. That IS the real he. He is a brat. He thinks he is better than other people because he is a pureblood. He thinks he is better than otehr people because he is rich. He thinks he is better than other people because he is a Slytherin. He thinks it's totally cool to have a dad that is a death eater.

Thats Malfoy. And no, he has no idea what he is getting into when he supports the dark side.

[quote]Yes, he's being a snotty little ****, but look at what Draco is actually saying. [/quote[

Yes, Draco is at this point making smalltalk to Harry. He doesn't know who he is, and has no opinion of him. Therefore, this is a point where it can not easily be said that Draco puts up any kind of mask.

But he STILL is a snotty little ****.

So that should remove most doubts about him, right? Is he nice deep inside? Nah, doesn't seem so, does it.

So, take a look at the scene in the forest at the campsite. You can explain what he said there either by saying that

- Draco is a nice guy that really wants to help, but he put's up a mask to make it seem like he is a snotty little ****.

or you can explain his actions by saying that:

- Draco is a snotty little ****.

And since we KNOW that he indeed is a snotty little ****, why would the last explanation not be enough? The first explanation just results in more questions, first and foremost the question: "How come he suddenly is nice?" I mean, up until then, he was NOT nice. How come he suddenly is nice now?

So I don't think he is putting up a mask. That IS the real he. He is a brat. He thinks he is better than other people because he is a pureblood. He thinks he is better than otehr people because he is rich. He thinks he is better than other people because he is a Slytherin. He thinks it's totally cool to have a dad that is a death eater.

Actually, i won't argue with that. But no doubt that's all he knows about being cool from his father. I don't claim he is putting up a mask i just think there is more to him than we know - remember we see these books from Harry's point of view - and therefore we aren't being shown all that perhaps there is to see about Draco.

Well, from what you have posted above I suspect that the many hints rather is interpretation of happenings, that although they don't contradict anything, they aren't very supported either.

Fopr example: It doesn't say anwhere in the books that Draco is trying to get sympathy from people. His actions are described, but not his thoughts. I don't see any obvious hints that he is playing toget sympathy. He MAY be doing that, but he may just as well only do it to aggravate Harry.

Again - Harry's POV is what we see. We never know what Hermione or Ron are thinking either. And also - literature is all about interpretation, and one of it's golden rules is 'Show - Don't Tell' if Draco is going to change sides (and again, it's just as possible he *won't* as he *will*), J.K. Rowling is not going to hang a neon sign over the clues. But also, everyone's interpretation is entirely different from another's, so we'll see. :)

So, take a look at the scene in the forest at the campsite. You can explain what he said there either by saying that

- Draco is a nice guy that really wants to help, but he put's up a mask to make it seem like he is a snotty little ****.

or you can explain his actions by saying that:

- Draco is a snotty little ****.

I don't think he was trying to help, not at all. In fact he is deliberately goading Harry, Ron and Hermione. I was merely looking at his reaction to what was said about his mother. The rest was Draco being a deplorable git.

I think Draco is a snotty little ****, that's not just how he's been brought up but seemingly how he wants to be. But even snotty little gits have layers and insercurities like the rest of the human race.

ETA: Perdita - firstly, he he, redemptionista minds must think alike! :) Also, Iago is from Othello, not Much Ado About Nothing. :)

The helping part was discussed in other places, with the argumenst that Draco really is a nice guy deep inside. :)

If the HP books had been books about real characters, then yes, there would have been more to Draco. After all, it's just books. If there is more to Draco than we see in the books, it only exists in JKR's head. And the question then is how she sees Draco. Does she mean to say that Draco really is and insecure guy that acts like a bully?

No, I don't think so, becuase he doesn't behave like an insecure guy that acts like a bully. He acts like a ****.

And what does his reaction to what was said about his mother say? The same thing as always. HE is allowed to say bad things about other peoples mothers, but nobody can say anything about his mother.

If I'm gonna say something about Malfoy that in a way excuses him a bit, it's that he in fact my have empathy problems. He might not understand that other people have the same feelings and reactions as he does. It's a common problem with bullys. I don't think Malfoy has empathy problems though. I definitely think Dudley has it. Dudley is the kind of person that could hit somebody, and then be puzzled when that person starts to cry. I've met people with these kinds of problems. It's quite bizarre.

The helping part was discussed in other places, with the argumenst that Draco really is a nice guy deep inside

OK, now that is really stretching it. He's NOT nice (and that's putting it mildly), but that doesn't mean there's not more to him.

And what does his reaction to what was said about his mother say? The same thing as always. HE is allowed to say bad things about other peoples mothers, but nobody can say anything about his mother.

If I'm gonna say something about Malfoy that in a way excuses him a bit, it's that he in fact my have empathy problems. He might not understand that other people have the same feelings and reactions as he does. It's a common problem with bullys. I don't think Malfoy has empathy problems though. I definitely think Dudley has it. Dudley is the kind of person that could hit somebody, and then be puzzled when that person starts to cry. I've met people with these kinds of problems. It's quite bizarre.

Draco is self centered, the very idea of thinking of another above himself is, to his mind ludicrous. Therefore i think you might have an idea there (even if you don't believe it myself), he doesn't know or care how much his words hurt anybody, it's very hard to be a bully if you can empathise with your victim after all.

Going back to the mother thing - what i actually said was that Harry makes a blatent accusation about Draco's father Lucius being invovled in the Muggle torturing (it's accurate obviously, we know this). Bearing in mind that Lucius goes out of his way to keep up a respectable image and you have to wonder - why does Draco not try and cover up for his father? He defends his mother all right but he happily pretty much admits his father is invovled in what is going on. Somehow i don't think Lucius would pat him on the head for that.

My own personal assumption is that Draco has a stronger emotional relationship with his mother. Granted, anyone with the name Narcissa is not going to win Mother of the Year but it's a point to consider. I think Draco sees Lucius as something he can use to threaten people with to get his own way rather than a real parental figure.

Originally posted by She's Crafty (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=254226#post254226))
Bearing in mind that Lucius goes out of his way to keep up a respectable image and you have to wonder - why does Draco not try and cover up for his father?

Because:

1. He thinks it's cool to have a dad thats a DE.
2. He doesn't understand the importance of keeping up the appearance of NOT being a DE.


Were basically on the same track as it comes to Draco, I think. I just associated your comments about there 'being more to Draco' with other people saying this and meaning 'he is really an nice insecure guy' and things like that. Obviously, I was to quick with that association. :)

I still think there is nothing more to Draco than what is shown, however.

smartypants, I have to agree with you there. Draco was, almost undoubtably, brought up on Voldemort's morals and some of his glory. You can see that by comments about Muggles and Muggle-borns throughout the series, and that nice little scene at the end of Goblet of Fire; for this, to say that he doesn't really believe it would be more of an excuse than anything else, and a bad sort of plot device. One thing I want to note is that I don't think Malfoy really cares about how people associate Lucius and the Dark Arts, because that's "good" in his mind. He doesn't understand why it has to be kept hidden and as it is doesn't really care. I don't think that Lucius is much of a parental figure and Draco doesn't view him as one, either, but I'm gleaming that from the text in general. He has more of a bond with his mother because his mother actually cares about him. We don't know how deep this bond goes, but Narcissa didn't want Draco to go to Durmstrang at least partly because of his safety - that says something, if we don't know what. I say partly because there could be a long string of reasons behind it that Draco wasn't aware of.

Right now, I don't think there's any question that Draco is a generally nasty person, but he may not be as nasty as some people make him out to be. He's a jerk, but an exaggerated jerk.

I agree.

Small note though: We don't know if what Draco sais about his mother not wanting him to go to Durmstrang is true. In fact, Lucius was a school givernos is book 2, and probably well before that too. It would look very strange if a school givernor doesn't send his kids to the school, wouldn't it?

I think that Durmstrang thing is something Draco just makes up to impress Crabbe and Goyle or something...

(This message was left blank.)

Hello all!

Malfoy is a misinformed, narrow-minded kid. But I think there's hope for him. He's not evil. You don't see him making plans of mass-destruction or formulating murder plots. All he does is get people into trouble in school. No real threat. As for his niceness, well maybe he's nice to his friends, to those he thinks are like him: pureblood and wealthy.

He doesn't know what he's getting into because he doesn't know the whole story. Just half of it.

Peace! :)

Ack! Thanks for the correction, She's Crafty!

*oops, there goes my argument!*

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=254287#post254287))
I agree.

Small note though: We don't know if what Draco sais about his mother not wanting him to go to Durmstrang is true. In fact, Lucius was a school givernos is book 2, and probably well before that too. It would look very strange if a school givernor doesn't send his kids to the school, wouldn't it?

I think that Durmstrang thing is something Draco just makes up to impress Crabbe and Goyle or something...


That's a brilliant thought. :)
Draco bragged about being down for Slytherin in SS. He certaintly didn't mention Durmstang before GoF.
He was just looking for another dig at Hogwarts and how Dumbledore runs the school.

i think hes good! if its any constillation

Draco has been living most of his life being spoon-fed lies and shielded from some unsavory truths about life on the Dark Side.
This does not prepare him for "real life." [yes, I know its a story, but it still applies here.]
He is in for some very nasty surprises when, and if, he ever joins Voldemort's merry little group.

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=254287#post254287))
I agree.

Small note though: We don't know if what Draco sais about his mother not wanting him to go to Durmstrang is true. In fact, Lucius was a school givernos is book 2, and probably well before that too. It would look very strange if a school givernor doesn't send his kids to the school, wouldn't it?

I think that Durmstrang thing is something Draco just makes up to impress Crabbe and Goyle or something...


naw Ithink his dad just didn't want his son going to a school where dumbledore taught. The reason why it wasn't brought up until GOF is because we had no clue about other wizarding schools until then. It would have made us all confused and stuff.Draco was probably also using it as a way to brag yet again about his fathers contacts ya know. just some toughts

Oh yes, Malfoy is all brag. But when it comes down to it he is nothing without his father's money and power.

That's it exactly. If you took all that away there wouldn't be much left. I won't deny what Draco is (in essence, a coward) but in many respect, i do not think he does really understand what he's getting in to.

Without his father's influence, Draco would probably seem a bit like Neville actually.

I think that is the way malfoy is he is always like that sometimes..... I think that's right but, i'm not sure because i just joined so, when i read your reply to this message i will know for sure then i guess in the mean time iam going to read another message just, to let everyone know that i'm going to post a message about Harry Potter its going to be your opioion of why they should keep Sean Biggerstaff(oliver wood) in the 3rd movie!!!

It should go in The Common Room, not this area. There is already a thread on that there anyway.

When Hermione hit Draco (he asked for it), he backed off.
When Harry said something about Draco's mother (he asked for that, too), he got all worked up.

It makes me think that he's got respect for women...at least as much respect as a narrow-minded, misguided bully can have.

Being slapped in the face, and having your mother insulted is hardly comparable things. :D

And he just got surprised. He hadn't excpected that from Hermione. He has been going around insulting her for three years, and nothing has happened, and suddenly she hits him. Of course he's surprised!

I dont think he was surprised or shocked,he knew he went
to far after she slapped him.Deatheaters torture and kill people
just like hermione all the time,and by the way he acted he couldnt hit a girl.

Yeah, but Draco is not a Death Eater. He wants to be, but he (as we have concluded here) doesn't know what he is getting into. :)

Can be botherd to read every post but it's obvious from watching CoS that Draco is bullied by his father. I don't think he's not really evil. I think he just puts it all on to impress his dad. He proberly thinks that by following in his dad's footsteps he will earn his respect. But I think in later books that Draco will realise that he dosen't belong in his fathers world and will side with Harry.

Bullied? Were talking about a guy who's father BOUGHT him a place on the Quiddich team. ;)

The only indication of 'bullying' is when Lucius, seemingly irritated with Dracos complaining, tells him he should be ashamed of being neaten in every subject by a muggle-born girl.

The other hints we see of their relation is that he buys him stuff (like the place on the team. Quite a present, eh?) and that he puts down quite a lot of effort in getting a Hippogriff exectued, because Draco wants him to do it, because it would annoy Harry.

I personally agree with Mega. Sure, he buys him things, but that seems to me that he does it more for show - to make him looks good, and rich. He wants his child to be sucessful, but that doesnt meant that he loves him. He seems to put down Malfoy a bit, as if he cant achieve anything.

I fail to see how it is "bullying" to love you child and want them to be successful. :) And since the Malfoys believe in bloodline, I assume that Lucius is disappointed that his child is beaten in every subject by a mudblood. And he sais so. I don't see that this is bullying either.

Bullying, that's what Dudley do to Harry.

I suppose your right (:( I hate people being right...) Ive just seen the DVD, so I havent got back into normal mode.

I think Draco knows what he is getting into. If you look at Draco's past behavior when fronted with Voldemort (or even Dementors) he was a scared little boy. Frightened out of his wits. But in GOF he's as calm as can be. He wasn't ruffled at all (unless ****** off at Harry for something).
The kid knows something is up and feels secure.

Yes, I agree with Fuchsia. I think that by the time GoF happened he was old enough to know exactly what was going on and with Cedric's death he saw it first hand. His behavior at the end of the year feast shows his attitude and the choice he has made, which I think he fully understands.

Yes, I agree with Fuchsia. I think that by the time GoF happened he was old enough to know exactly what was going on and with Cedric's death he saw it first hand. His behavior at the end of the year feast shows his attitude and the choice he has made, which I think he fully understands.

Now here's an argument i can't disagree with. What he said to Harry was purely spiteful and dreadful, he knew that Cedric's death had had a big effect on Harry but Draco couldn't keep his mouth shut anyway. I guess he feels secure because he feels he's got the upper hand on Harry or something like that.

Mmm, it makes me refer back to my comparison of Draco to Buffy the Vampire Slayer character Faith - we knew she'd truly gone to the bad side when she expressed not caring about killing someone...and then joining the evil Mayor (a man who is a somewhat eccentric version of Voldemort in terms of seeking immortality and so on). What stopped Faith in the end was guilt and self hatred for what she'd done - Draco isn't the most self confident and secure person in the world (he needs to undermine others - i definate sign of that) so one wonders if it'll fall out in a similar way.

And like with Faith, whether it will be simply too late - she'd gone to far in to simply turn around and come out.

Originally posted by Fuchsia (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=264728#post264728))
If you look at Draco's past behavior when fronted with Voldemort

Hmm? Where is that?

(or even Dementors) he was a scared little boy. Frightened out of his wits. But in GOF he's as calm as can be. He wasn't ruffled at all

Why would he be ruffled? There was nothing there for him to be scared of. There is nothing confronting him, so why would he be scared? Sure, Cedric was killed, but he didn't see that. That happened somewhere else. Nothing is threatening him.

I think the fact that he is a scared little boy when confronted with scrary stuff, like Dementors, or in the forest, but acts like a confident [insert naughty word here] when there is nothing scary close by is good proof on exactly the opposite: He has NO idea what he is getting into. He doesn't understand that being a Death Eater involves working together with the forces he is scared to death of. He doesn't understand that being a death eater means. He thinks it's jus all having a cool tatoo letting other people follow your orders. If he had seen Vormtail cutting off his hand, he would have run screaming away and never returned.

Hmm? Where is that?

That would be PS/SS when he and Harry run into Quirrel/Voldemort in the Forest.

It has been established that Draco is a boaster, and i think you've summed it all up very well smartypants.

But didn't Draco go with Hagrid...No, wait right, he and Harry went together, and Neville went with Hagrid, you are right...

It's more than just parroting his father. And there are some kids who are just evil. Plus, at what point does he stop being "a kid" and start being a young adult? Cedric wasn't much of a kid and he was only three years older than Harry and Malfoy. At some point, we're just going to have to face the fact that Malfoy lived up to his surname "bad faith" and discard any hope we hold out for him.

Well, as has been mentioned before, Draco does act rather immature. You can't say that about Cedric... Maturity is only loosely connected to age. :)

Draco is very likely to stand up against his father, when he really experiences what being a DE means. Until now he has only seen the "cool" face of Dark Arts (like when he was fascinated by the Hand of Glory), and the power of his father (he's been able even to replace Dumbledore, although temporarily).

But his father doesn't allow him to know further; he's waiting for Draco to grow up a bit more. Then, Lucius will show him the reality, and Draco will have to make a choice. I really see him as a good spy for Dumbledore, but he's a bit coward. Fortunately Snape will be there to help him make the right thing (I hope).

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=263258#post263258))
I fail to see how it is "bullying" to love you child and want them to be successful. :) And since the Malfoys believe in bloodline, I assume that Lucius is disappointed that his child is beaten in every subject by a mudblood. And he sais so. I don't see that this is bullying either.

Bullying, that's what Dudley do to Harry.

bullying is more than just wat Dudley does (beat up people) it is also when you harrass someone and stuff, like what snape does to Nevil. You are right though, Lucius does not bully draco, hes just being a dad wanting the best out of his son. My dad puts pressure on me for good grades as well. He does seem thought to be less parenting then let's say the Weasleys for example.

Maybe he is just stubburn and dosnt like to be told what to do and he likes to see people fail and wants to be a part of it.

Yes, being spiteful is one of Draco's defining qualities.

Except Draco hates Dumbledore. And he's seen the worst that the Death Eaters can do. He really has. And he wants to join!! He mocked Diggory's death. He cheered his father's Muggle torture, he reveled in the Basilisk attacks. What will he have to do to be truly evil. Kill someone with Avada Kedavra?

Draco is not beyond "redemption" yet, jordmundt6. That is part of what we are discussing here.

Originally posted by Adamslove (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=269686#post269686))
bullying is more than just wat Dudley does (beat up people) it is also when you harrass someone and stuff, like what snape does to Nevil. You are right though, Lucius does not bully draco, hes just being a dad wanting the best out of his son. My dad puts pressure on me for good grades as well. He does seem thought to be less parenting then let's say the Weasleys for example.


He gives his son the wrong values but you're right. He does seem to care what becomes of his son. He's not a warm guy and what he wants for Draco isn't what he needs but other kids receieve even less.


What will he have to do to be truly evil. Kill someone with Avada Kedavra?
I think Draco is a cruel boy but until he takes someone's life (and even then there's room for improvement) he has a chance to change. He may not however.

Okay, I was just curious about the point at which you folks would be willing to write him off. You're a lot more patient than I am.

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=271179#post271179))
Except Draco hates Dumbledore.

Nah. He just thinks that only-pure blood should be allowed, and therefore thinks he is a crappy headmaster. Ideas he has gotten from his dad. There are no indications that Draco hates Dumbledore. He just repeats his fathers opinions about Dumbledores running of the school.

And he's seen the worst that the Death Eaters can do. He really has.

Oh, has he really? When? Was he with Harry when Cedric died, or with Crouch Jr when they tortured the Longbottoms to insanity, or with Wormtail when he killed a whole bunch of muggles in one blow, or...? :rolleyes:

In fact, he has seen nothing of what the Death Eaters can do, except perhaps he has seen Cedrics dead body from a distance.

What will he have to do to be truly evil. Kill someone with Avada Kedavra?


And enjoy it, yes. :)
Yes, he is on the evil side. The point is that he doesn't know what he is getting into. He thinks it's "cool". Rather like a fourteen year old kid smoking dope. "Coool."

No, it isn't. He has no idea of what he is getting into. He will GET an idea, though, and then we'll see if he changes his mind or not. We don't know yet. :??:

Except Draco hates Dumbledore. And he's seen the worst that the Death Eaters can do. He really has. And he wants to join!! He mocked Diggory's death. He cheered his father's Muggle torture, he reveled in the Basilisk attacks. What will he have to do to be truly evil. Kill someone with Avada Kedavra?

As has already been pointed, no he hasn't seen the worst the Death Eaters can do, and nor do i think he has any idea of what it's like. I think the cheering of Cedric's death was an extrememly cheap way to score points off Harry. True, it was an awful thing he said but that really was the crux of it - getting one over on Potter.

Now if Draco killed someone with Avada Kedavra - no way would he be redeemable after that, that is the poverbial line he would have to cross to become fully corrupted. Draco could never go back from that in my estimation, not at all. So yes, he would be truly evil then.

Okay, I was just curious about the point at which you folks would be willing to write him off. You're a lot more patient than I am.

In my case it's got more to do with character development. In my view Draco doesn't have much layers (as we only see him from Harry's point of view) if he did become redeemed or even in fact became evil that would help develop his character. The strange thing here is that i don't usually like characters like Draco. At all. JK has really done a number on me here...

Something i do wonder about - what will all the dissenters do if Draco does choose Dumbeldore's side? Just curious. I know if Draco becomes evil i'd get really mad, shout a lot. Then drag myself in here and apologise for boring everyone to death with my theories. And then shout some more. :) :devil:

I also want Draco to see the error of his ways and become good. I guess JK does this by showing us that he just is a little immature kid, so that you keep on thinking that there is hope. :)

Hello again, She's Crafty, and hats off to you!

I'm going to try and re-join this discussion. I want to look at whether or not Draco will in the end choose to side with DD or his father and Voldemort.

These are just my notes, so if there are any inconsistencies or queries, I welcome a response from anyone who is interested.

Draco Malfoy and Snape Comparison

Similarities

Both come from the house of Slytherin.
Both excel at making potions.
Both feel that they are at the butt of injustice.
Both are, or have been suspected of being practitioners of dark magic.
Both dislike Harry Potter and everything that the Gryffindor house represents.
Both use covert and unjust means to antagonize Harry and his friends.
Both seem to be isolated and friendless. Grabbe and Coyle do not count as friends in my books.
Both feel, or have felt, that they are under pressure to live up to the Slytherin image of being self-serving, conniving, manipulative and possibly evil.
Parallels

Draco and Harry, Snape and James Potter.
Snape was once a supporter of Voldemort. He later turned back to the good side and helped Dumbledore spy against Voldemort.
James saved Snape’s life. Harry has yet to save Draco’s life in a direct conflict.
Snape, based on his personal experiences with James and the marauders, believes that they were given special treatment by the teachers undeservedly. Malfoy seems to feel the same way about Harry and his friends, that they get away with too often for their infractions against school rules.
In the future, we could see Malfoy experience the reverse of what Snape experienced. Instead of turning to redemption, he solidifies his role as a DE.
Or, Malfoy could do what Snape did, and become a spy against his father for Dumbledore.
Differences

Snape is very bitter about the injustices that he’s experienced.
Malfoy is still young, and does not seem to have developed much bitterness. Instead, he seems to be having quite a bit of fun with playing pranks on Harry and Co.
My Prediction?

He will not repeat what Snape did. He will turn against DD and fight for Voldemort. He will believe in the lies that Voldemort and Lucius feed him. He will believe that that is his only way of attaining power and control over others. Thus far, he has not shown any backbone or courage to fight what is bad for the sake of goodness. I don’t think that he has the courage to stand up to Lucius and Voldemort.

Excellent post Perdita! :)
I haven't noted any discrepencies in your list. It seems acurate to me.
We'll need more books before we can see any signs that Draco will turn the way Snape does.
If he turns against Voldemort his father will cut him from the wealth. I don't think Draco is strong enough to turn from that.

Okay, I'm going to try to respond to everybody.

Crafty--If Draco does choose Dumbledore's side, you won't see me on these boards, I'll either be in the hospital or dead from the sheer shock of it. Especially because JK has already said in interviews that Harry and Draco WILL NEVER WORK TOGETHER AGAINST VOLDEMORT. Ahem. sorry to yell.

Peridita--the general similarity is there, but your list is flawed.

1. We have no evidence that Draco is actually any good at potions, just that Snape cuts him a world of slack. We've never seen him come up with a perfect potion (though I'm sure the second he did, Snape would trumpet it throughout the dungeon).

2. Snape has and had many friends (Slytherin friends) in school. He was their leader and the best student of them. They even had a Dark equivalent of James/Lily in the Lestranges who are so inseparable they've yet to be identified individually (by anybody). I think these connections are stronger than Crabbe-Goyle lackeys because they support each other in later life, but they could be alliances of convenience. Can't argue with the injustice thing (though this really has more to do with perception on Draco's part than actual ill treatment). Snape does not hate everything that Gryffindor stands for or there is no way he would allow himself to be loyal to Dumbledore and there is no way he would refrain from disparaging Lily (he would sound like Lucius, not as he does now).

The rest of the similarities list I agree with. How is Snape's spy conduct a parallel to Draco. Draco has been reared as the heir to one of the greatest Death Eaters there is, he actively supports dark activity, taking every opportuity to antagonize all non-purebloods and Squibs (his torture of Neville is fairly easy to spot). We don't yet have evidence that Snape tried these things on Squibs or Muggle-borns like Lily and I'm positive he's never wished Lily dead.

Draco doesn't actually see Harry's movements as special treatment (he sees the adulation he gets as unfounded and the fact that he got on the House Quidditch team as a first year as an unfortunate fluke, but he only has two minor incidents of special treatment to really complain about (one being the Hogsmeade mudbath). In all other cases, he's able to easily manipulate the situation to counteract any advantage Harry has. In fact, he can be seen goading and manipulating the Trio, and even capitalizing on Snape's hatred of Harry at least as often (actually more often) than he can point to special treatment. But, I think your prediction is accurate. I just think Draco is already there. He's not on the edge, he's over it.

Weatherby and Jordmundt6,

Thanks for responding to my post. And thanks for the compliment, Weatherby!

Jord,

I hope you won't end up in the hospital. But if you do, please continue posting here because I sure do enjoy reading your posts. ;D

And I think you're bang on about Draco being an opportunist, taking advantage of a situation and Snapes hatred of Harry.

As for Snape's schooling years, I don't know where you got the info that he was a ring-leader. I've always imagined him to be a loner. Did Rowling tell us about this in GOF? Could you give me some textual references to this? Thanks.

Re: Neville - I wouldn't call the leg-locker curse an act of torture. It was a prank to humiliate Neville, but that is not the same as toruture. Torture is systematic, and it is sustained for a long period of time. It's not a momentary thing like with the leg-locker curse.

If you're referring to another incident, then I'd like to hear it. Honestly, I cannot remember the other instances.

Cheers!

*****
EDIT

About Draco already having chosen which side he wants to take, I agree with Jordmundt6 as well. This is because of how he spoke to Harry on the train at the end of GOF. It used to be that he would talk a lot, and I suspected how much he really meant what he said. Now, after having read the last 3 chapters of GOF several times, it sounds to me like Draco is speaking with quite a bit of conviction. It does sound to me like he has chosen the other side.

GoF "Padfoot Returns." "He was in with a whole gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters" (referring to Snape). Sirius goes on to list Rosier, the Lestranges, Avery (who weaseled his way out with Imperius Curse line straight from the manure pile) and a couple others. Notice, these are all acquiaintances and allies of Snape in later life and Malfoy was like a mentor to them. Snape would have been a prodigy among them ("He knew more curses when he came to school than halof the students in seventh year.") I think his brains and his war with the Marauders would have made him a good candidate for a leader of this crew, particularly since most of the others are joiners with marshmallow wills ("Forgive us master, forgive us." "Crucio!") Man that was some forgiveness, wasn't it Avery?

Hm...okay, for now, I'll trust Sirius because he is one of the good guys. However, based on the hostile history that he has with Snape, I am not sure if Sirius might have some biases and misperceptions of Snape. In that passage, Sirius still makes a comment on Snape's appearance as "[sic]Slimy, oily, greasy- haired kid[...]" He also says that Snape was fascinated by the dark arts. The rest of that passage, Sirius is making inferences based on what he had observed, not based on what he knows as fact. There is actually a lot that Sirius does not know of Snape. This is why I wouldn't quite trust Sirius all the way. There is quite a possibility that he is mistaken.

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And if GOF has taught us anything, it's that appearances can be deceiving.
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Also, just because Snape was the highest-achieving student does not make him a ring-leader.

And now I've gone completely off the topic of Malfoy. :sorry:

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=284129#post284129))
Draco Malfoy and Snape Comparison
[...]
Both are, or have been suspected of being practitioners of dark magic.


I would change this to "Both are attracted to dark magic." Or at least, Draco *is*, and Snape *was*, when he was in school.

I think these similarities are also quite enough to explain why Snape likes Draco, it doesn't have to do anything with Lucius. Snape just sees himself in Draco.

That they both have friends has been mentioned by others, so I won't repeat that anymore.

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=285389#post285389))
1. We have no evidence that Draco is actually any good at potions, just that Snape cuts him a world of slack. We've never seen him come up with a perfect potion (though I'm sure the second he did, Snape would trumpet it throughout the dungeon).

And indeed he has. In at least one instance, he has told the class about Dracos perfect potion. So, we at least know he doesn't suck at it.

In point of fact, already in the very first potions class, he calls the class over to show tham that Malfoy is making a perfect job of stewing his slugs. I think half the reason that Snape cuts Malfoy so much slack is that Malfoy is a gifted potions student.

And I don't agree that Snape was the ringleader. I think that he was a misfit and loner by nature, but that his dark arts skills attracted the Junior DE's so that they included him in their group of outcasts and malcontents. (Like the slimebags or nerds or other unpopular types in high school who hang out with each other.) Snape, possibly never having been accepted as part of a group before, probably was twice as obnoxious thereafter, in the attempt to keep and to impress his new friends. In my opinion, he became a Death Eater by following his friends, and fortunately had enough character to break it off later, when he realized that his ideas of glory and world domination didn't include harming innocent people for fun.

But I do think (to cross subjects with the 'Why does Snape Teach' thread's current focus) that Snape did not rat out his friends to the ministry when he switched sides. I think he did think of them as real friends, people who picked him up and made a fuss over him and stood by him back when he was a nobody. We know Snape has a loyal nature--even toward those he dislikes, such as James Potter, he feels a sense of duty. I'm sure his sense of loyalty toward those he grew up with remains strong at least some degree.

I doubt that Lucius Malfoy was a mentor to the group, or even aware of them--unless he was the former Potions master or something we're unaware of. Hagrid said that Voldemort appeared and began gathering followers by giving 'join or die' ultimatums to powerful wizards and witches. I can just see the Lestranges (or someone) volunteering, and eagerly convincing the rest that this is the ultimate opportunity to get in on the ground floor of...

Crafty--If Draco does choose Dumbledore's side, you won't see me on these boards, I'll either be in the hospital or dead from the sheer shock of it. Especially because JK has already said in interviews that Harry and Draco WILL NEVER WORK TOGETHER AGAINST VOLDEMORT. Ahem. sorry to yell.


:rotfl: Sorry, i just that was funny. As for that JK quote, i found the web chat that was made in and that in fact was not what she said. She said she'd read the rumour and that you shouldn't believe rumours (in other words, she never confirmed or denied it).

Ok, if Draco did go evil (and yes, i still hope that he does not, call me delusional) the way i'd see it ending is in an actual show down with Harry - alone. Actually, i really have to confess that i've had fanfic ideas about writing that happening and i wouldn't complain (despite it not being the outcome i really would want to see).

Smartypants, thanks for the suggestion.

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=286054#post286054))
In point of fact, already in the very first potions class, he calls the class over to show tham that Malfoy is making a perfect job of stewing his slugs. I think half the reason that Snape cuts Malfoy so much slack is that Malfoy is a gifted potions student.

Thank you, Inkwolf. I knew I wasn't imagining things. I just couldnt' remember the specific examples.

And I don't agree that Snape was the ringleader. I think that he was a misfit and loner by nature, but that his dark arts skills attracted the Junior DE's so that they included him in their group of outcasts and malcontents. (Like the slimebags or nerds or other unpopular types in high school who hang out with each other.) Snape, possibly never having been accepted as part of a group before, probably was twice as obnoxious thereafter, in the attempt to keep and to impress his new friends. In my opinion, he became a Death Eater by following his friends, and fortunately had enough character to break it off later, when he realized that his ideas of glory and world domination didn't include harming innocent people for fun.

LOL, I totally agree with the first part.

Here's another thing about Draco, he has been shown every reason why he should become a Death Eater: he inherits a vast fortune, he becomes an influential and powerful person, he gets to do pretty much whatever he wants, he gets respect and if not that at least fear, he hangs with the "best" people, he is saving the wizarding world by keeping the bloodlines pure.

He has not been given or shown any reasons why he should not be a Death Eater other than people saying, "they are evil and bad". Draco, being a Slytherin and an opportunist, will ask, "what's in it for me?" Until he gets shown that he will have terrible consequences, and maybe die or end up in Azkaban, he won't think twice about it. And, realistically he thinks his wealth and family name will save him from the bad consequences. He also needs to be shown happy positive reasons for not becoming a Death Eater.

So Draco will probably become a Death Eater, just because he has no (to his mind) good reason not to.

Sinistra, I think you're right.

Okay, what do you all think of this assessment?

Draco Malfoy and Snape Relationship

Teacher and pupil
Father-figure and charge

Malfoy’s development hinges on his relationship with Snape.

If he respects Snape more than the respects his father, then he will choose to follow in Snape’s path of redemption. If he respects his father more than Snape, then he will follow his father to become a death eater.

I don't think that there's enough time to develop a Malfoy storyline like Snape's where he first chooses to join his father, but in the end he turns to Snape and seeks redemption. And besides, this story is about Harry Potter, not Draco Malfoy.

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Do you think that this is realistic?

Has Rowling shown us that Malfoy really does have a good relationship with Snape, one that is more of the mentor-"protoge" than just teacher-student? (Sorry, not sure what the correct word is)

It seems to me that Malfoy has a closer relationship with Lucius, and that is based on what I read in COS. In GOF, their relationship is quite ambiguous. I still don't know if Malfoy fears his father, or respects him, or idolizes him, or all of the above?

I have to be honest and say that when I read the books, I don't focus on the details of Malfoy and Snape that much. Many of you here would know more about it and hopefully, will be able to post some evidence because I have none. I'm just going on impressions.

Personally, I do not think Snape is to concerned with Malfoy or anyone else for that matter other than Harry or Dumbledore. As long as Dumbledore trusts him, Snape does not really care what anyone says or does. Of course, Snape has his issues, especially his anger towards Harry. But any favoritism towards Malfoy seems to be more of a byproduct of disliking Harry rather than liking Malfoy. While it is a bit of a generalization, Snape tends to praise/favor Malfoy after Snape has critisized Harry. Snape is so incocistent in his actions it is hard to figure out his true intentions in regards to Malfoy. Snape is constantly angry with Harry yet he saves his life. Snape is mean and spiteful yet he values Dumbledore's trust so much.

I found a really interesting quote from JK herself about Dudley:

"...I see Dudley as being just as abused as Harry."

If she thinks that way about Dudley that surely she sees the same thing with Draco (only Draco is undermined by his parents, not overly nurtured as Dudley is). Now that has really given me reknewed hope that Draco will choose the right side - i still believe that Dumbeldore's quote about choosing either what is right and what is easy is really going to produce some surprises - Malfoy being one of them.

You can find that and some other interesting stuff from this scan of Book Magazine at Dark Mark. http://www.darkmark.com

She's Crafty,

if what you say is true, that DD's statement applies also to Malfoy, what do you make of the final scene in the train when Malfoy brings up the question of choice, telling Harry point blank that he made the wrong decision?

I am interested to know how you would interpret Malfoy's actions and statements here.

I think i've said this before but anyways:

Draco's actions at the end of GoF in my view were very simple - he saw it as an opportunity to let Harry know he has the upper hand on him. It was (and always has been) about point scoring and to Draco Voldemort's return is pretty big and i often wonder how much he really believes in the Dark Lord himself other than something to use against Harry. The whole nasty taunt about Cedric was a deliberate goad that backfired. It was cruel and horrible but that was really all it was about - point scoring.

I know that while the Malfoys are still rich Draco will never change sides but consider this - what if they finally get court out and lose their entire fortune? Draco isn't going to stick with Voldie then but i feel Lucius would.