Which side is Snape really on? v.2

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PhoenixUK
July 31st, 2004, 12:28 am
Version 1 of this thread is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=13243).

Which side is Snape really on?

At the end of book 4, Voldie says "one of our number I fear has left us forever - he will be killed" (or something to that effect)...this doesn't sound like Voldie knew Snape was a spy - otherwise he would surely have said something about him 'betraying' him. We know that Snape is an excellent Occlumence, and can peform legilimancy too...but could he really outwit Voldie?

In book 5, Sirius (I think) says that Snape is Lucius Malfoys little dog - working for him in some way. How do we know Snape is not a double agent - playing both sides against each other, for his personal safety/power/something?

I know we are meant to feel pity for him, with that scene in the pensieve with James and Sirius tormenting him, but I STILL DON'T TRUST HIM!!!
Please continue your discussion here, thanks!

GrangerExpress
July 31st, 2004, 12:37 am
Well, I haven't really read much of the last thread, but I have always been under the impression that as evil as Snape can be at times, he is on the good side. In the first book he could have helped Quirrell bring Voldemort back, but instead he helped save Harry's life. I know Snape is a spy for the Order, and I feel like if he was a double spy (helping Voldemort), Voldemort would have known the location of Grimwauld's Place, or at least the area, and been able to attack the members of the Order by now. Even though Snape seems to have a grudge against Harry, I believe Snape will sacrifice himself, or do something to help Harry finish Voldemort.

Lord Nicholai
July 31st, 2004, 12:38 am
I think Snape is on our side...however in regards to the double agent comment. Having Snape as a spy is not just dangerous for himself, but for the order. Snape didnt turn up that night in the graveyard, and voldemort must surely suspect. This means that voldemort could be using snape to his own ends, without snape knowing. For example, Voldemort could be giving Snape wrong information, or using the Imperius curse to force Snape to be a double agent.

So i believe Snape is on our side but is unknowingly working for Voldemort

TGB
July 31st, 2004, 12:40 am
Snape is on the side of Dumbledore whatever Harry think, but I'm almost sure they will have a duel

Mione Weasley
July 31st, 2004, 1:11 am
Snape is definetly on Dumbledore´s side. It doesn´t matter if Snape is a good occlumens, Dumbledore probably knows that and he must have really strong reasons to give Severus a second chance. J.K. said that Snape told Dumbledore his story and he believed it, but let´s face it, for Dumbledore to just take a former Death Eater in his school staff, whatever was Snape´s story, it has to be a very important fact. Anyway, Snape is the most intriguing character in my opinion. I mean, he is on Dumbledore´s side, but is still in good terms with Voldemort´s Death Eaters (Lucius Malfoy). How could this be?? Voldemort certainly knows that he is no longer his follower (it doesn´t matter is Snape is the one who´s left him forever or the one who´s too coward to return, Voldemort mentioned all his missing Death Eaters and the only missing ones who weren´t deads were this, besides Crouch Jr.. And please, don´t tell me that he was at the rebirth party, he couldn´t have disapparated from Hogwarts as Hermione said many, many times and still sb would´ve noticed he was gone. He had to be there to help Dumbledore and all). So if he knew Snape is on Dumbledore´s side why didn´t he kill him yet?? He has no problems with killing people and Snape turned to Dumbledore´s side before Voldemort´s downfall...so why the heck Voldemort didn´t even bother to go looking for him?? And he ISN´T a spy for Voldemort, because it all fits. He said that he was going to kill the DE that has left him forever. So that means he still didn´t, but why???

Selyr Black
July 31st, 2004, 1:25 am
I've always thought Prof. Snape to be on the winning side (that's Dumbledore's for the ignorant. ;)). I think it's safe to assume Snape is on the good side.

Though he may be one of the most evil people (next to Umbridge and Fudge) he is a good guy. He must have dome something significant for Dumbledore for him to trust him as so. It's amazing that the Dark Lord still can't see right through him.

As for being Lucius's Lap dog, he has to keep up appearances. He MUST act like he is not in league with Dumbledore because of what Lucius could do to him via the Dark Lord.

It's all how the cards are played by Snape and Dumbledore.

Though, I still hate how he acts to Harry and the trio.

Dollmage
July 31st, 2004, 5:28 am
I wrote an editorial about this that hasn't been put on any webpages but I looked at this thought for a long. I don't think Snape is the “One, who I believe has left me forever…” that Voldemort mentioned in GoF. Rowling never says how many gaps there are in the circle, just as she never gives a precise number of people that there are there. It is my belief that Voldemort knew that Snape could not have been there, and walked right past the gap he should have been filling. Dumbledore says in the Pensieve, during Karkaroff’s trial, that Snape “turned spy for us, at great personal risk.” This makes me think that he is a spy for Dumbledore, yet Voldemort thinks he is his spy on Dumbledore. The use of the word turned, suggests that maybe Snape was orginally a spy for Voldemort. So, it would be expected that Voldemort would just pass that spot knowing that if Snape had left Hogwarts during the middle of an important school event, it would be very suspicious to Dumbledore, therefore bringing attention to his return. None of the other Death Eaters would know because only Voldemort knows all of the Death Eaters names(Karkaroff said something to that effect during his trial). When Dumbledore sends Snape off to do his first job, it can be assumed that he is going to check in with Voldemort, and therefore make the illusion that he is still a loyal Death Eater.

As much as I hate Snape I think he is on the good side.

mrsronweasley
July 31st, 2004, 5:44 am
hmm i think snape is on the good side.. but (now this is really random.. no laughing or teasing) i think that snape is so suspicious of other ppl.. and he has proven to be right (esp in the case of professor quirrell in hp1) that he suspects harry to turn out to be a trader to the good side.

I mean, I can't see that happening, that after all this JKR makes Harry out to be the bad one.. but I think that Snape must feel he has some sort of reason for hating harry so much.. right?

hmmm

atherella
July 31st, 2004, 5:58 am
Snape is definetly on Dumbledore´s side. It doesn´t matter if Snape is a good occlumens, Dumbledore probably knows that and he must have really strong reasons to give Severus a second chance. J.K. said that Snape told Dumbledore his story and he believed it, but let´s face it, for Dumbledore to just take a former Death Eater in his school staff, whatever was Snape´s story, it has to be a very important fact. Anyway, Snape is the most intriguing character in my opinion. I mean, he is on Dumbledore´s side, but is still in good terms with Voldemort´s Death Eaters (Lucius Malfoy). How could this be?? Voldemort certainly knows that he is no longer his follower (it doesn´t matter is Snape is the one who´s left him forever or the one who´s too coward to return, Voldemort mentioned all his missing Death Eaters and the only missing ones who weren´t deads were this, besides Crouch Jr.. And please, don´t tell me that he was at the rebirth party, he couldn´t have disapparated from Hogwarts as Hermione said many, many times and still sb would´ve noticed he was gone. He had to be there to help Dumbledore and all). So if he knew Snape is on Dumbledore´s side why didn´t he kill him yet?? He has no problems with killing people and Snape turned to Dumbledore´s side before Voldemort´s downfall...so why the heck Voldemort didn´t even bother to go looking for him?? And he ISN´T a spy for Voldemort, because it all fits. He said that he was going to kill the DE that has left him forever. So that means he still didn´t, but why???

I try to avoid simply making a post that says "I agree", but everything you wrote is exactly what I believe as well. Great post!!

As for why Voldemort hasn't killed Snape yet, that's a great question, wish I had a thought there. :shrug:

ginko
July 31st, 2004, 6:13 am
I'm just a bit weirded out by JKR saying not to "feel too sorry for Snape." Hopefully this just means we don't know everything yet (of that I am fairly certain) and not that he's really a Death Eater at heart. If Dumbledore trusts him, I'm inclined to think that Snape is good. But in book five, we learn that Dumbledore is not infallible, which worries me as well. But I hope that by not feeling too sorry for Snape, JKR means that he was just as rotten to MWPP as they were to him, if not moreso.

Bella25
July 31st, 2004, 6:39 am
I think that Snape is on Dumbledores side, because I don't think he would go back to Voldemort. Look what happened last time. I know that Snape does tell Sirius that Lucius Malfoy recognized him a plateform 9 3/4. I just know that Snape is on the good side.

__________________________________________________ ________
"To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure."-Albus Dumbledore

Starlight
July 31st, 2004, 11:43 am
Rowling never says how many gaps there are in the circle, just as she never gives a precise number of people that there are there. It is my belief that Voldemort knew that Snape could not have been there, and walked right past the gap he should have been filling.

Well, there's one way of finding out, unless it's revealed in the next book and it's released next summer - the GoF movie! I'll be the one sitting in the front row, squinting at the screen during the graveyard scene to see if I can recognise Snape among the unnamed DEs while trying to count how many unnamed DEs and how many gaps there are at the same time. :eyebrows:

Dumbledore says in the Pensieve, during Karkaroff’s trial, that Snape “turned spy for us, at great personal risk.” This makes me think that he is a spy for Dumbledore, yet Voldemort thinks he is his spy on Dumbledore. The use of the word turned, suggests that maybe Snape was orginally a spy for Voldemort.

I agree, this is what I think also. Snape learned Occlumency somehow, and I'm not sure Snape could've got away with going to Occlumency lessons with DD without V knowing, which leaves either Snape taught himself before he signed up to be a DE, just in case, or V taught him, so he could spy on DD.

Another thing that DD said was that Snape rejoined their side. Maybe that means that Snape started out as a double-agent, pretending to work for DD when really loyal to V, before admitting this to DD and becoming loyal to DD?

I'm just a bit weirded out by JKR saying not to "feel too sorry for Snape.".

As yet, I've found no evidence that she ever said this. The closest I've found was that JKR said that we shouldn't think him too nice, and seeing as some people seem to think that he's really an adorable angel, I agree with her.

linzee4life
July 31st, 2004, 3:48 pm
In my opinion, Snape definitely on Dumbledore's side. He is risking his life everyday to spy on Voldemort. I mean out of everyone, Snape is probably the one with the most risks. That still doesn't mean I trust him though. If Snape could destroy Harry or anyone that was associated with him, I think he would. I have a feeling that Snape is going to do something horrible to Harry in the next two books, but Harry is going to either save his life or do a tremendously good thing for Snape. That will make Snape hate Harry even more because James did the exact same thing. I don't think that Snape will ever get along with Harry. In my opinion, he will always have that bias.

JDR237
July 31st, 2004, 4:32 pm
I wonder how Voldemort doesn't know that Snape is working for Dumbledore. Forget occlumency, remember Snape's conversation with Quirrill? Snape was questioning Quirrill's loyalty to Dumbledore while Voldemort was possessing Quirrill. So I think Voldemort really knows what Snape is up to. Another point, Snape could not have been at the graveyard b/c he would have had to apparate, and he could not do that inside Hogwarts, so he at least has a good cover story for why he was not there. But I think Snape is being used by Voldemort and will be killed.

Mad Alces
July 31st, 2004, 4:32 pm
I think one of the questions is what Snape has to do to get Voldemort to trust him. I think that he leaks information both ways, and some of the info he gives to Voldemort must be of some importance.

In the end I think Snape will turn out to be one of the good side.

DragonBlk17
July 31st, 2004, 4:35 pm
I'm guessing Snape is on the good side. I mean he tried to stop Quirrel from killing Harry in SS, He tried to save Harry, Hermione and Ron at the Shrieking Shack, But I'm sure we'll find out more about which side he is truly on in the next 2 books

Selyr Black
July 31st, 2004, 5:04 pm
Another thing that DD said was that Snape rejoined their side. Maybe that means that Snape started out as a double-agent, pretending to work for DD when really loyal to V, before admitting this to DD and becoming loyal to DD?This could be true too. I wouldn't be suprised if it were something like this. I mean, i never thought of it like this, but now that you've mentioned it, I think It's something that I'm willing to believe.

He could also have been a Death Eater spy for Dumbledore, who started to think that the Dark Lord had the right idea. Then, upon seeing what he [the Dark Lord] could do, Snape decides to rejoin the side of good, with Dumbledore and the Ministry of Magic.

aggiefan1206
July 31st, 2004, 5:16 pm
I havent decided yet he is still too shady sometimes he seems to be good and other times he seems bad. Jk did say not to feel to sorry for him so i will have to read the next couple books to decide when they come out

JDR237
July 31st, 2004, 6:30 pm
I think it boils down to this, Snape is an evil person who, for selfish reasons, happens to be on the "good" side. I still say Voldemort kills him in the end because "he knows, the dark lord always knows".

FreyaCrescent
July 31st, 2004, 7:09 pm
The closest I've found was that JKR said that we shouldn't think him too nice
Exactly! She hasn't said "don't feel too sorry for Snape", she told us not to think him too nice. That quote has had the Chinese Whisper treatment. Just because he's not all happy and smiley doesn't mean he can't be on the good side. I also do not believe that Dumbledore would trust Snape so much unless he was completely sure he could. Dumbledore has admitted making mistakes, but this is far too important a thing to be wrong about.

I think Selyr Black is absolutely right in saying that Snape has to keep up appearances, which is why he's always associated with the Malfoys. He wouldn't be a very good spy if he was going round to all the Death Eaters and saying how fantastic Dumbledore is. He can only gain information about Voldemort by keeping up the pretence of supporting him.

SiriusBlack
August 1st, 2004, 4:19 am
But the thing I want to know is, how the heck did the death eaters ever accept him back? Didn't they know he'd switched sides? Or could he be working as a double agent. But I do think Voldemort mentioned at the end of book four about a couple who'd left or were in prison, and he said something about "one of us has left our ranks forever, he shall be killed". I think that was Snape right? So, there's surely no way he could be on Voldemort's side. :cool:

tao
August 1st, 2004, 11:41 pm
I know that Snape does tell Sirius that Lucius Malfoy recognized him a plateform 9 3/4.
YES and what do you think about that? (Everybody please!) How could Lucius recognise Sirius? Did I forget something about him being an animagus going public? As far as I know he couldn´t have known. Don´t you think Snape told him?
I think he works as a double agent but for the good side, you know what I mean. He still has to give some information to the other side. Wrong information or information he doesn´t care about like Blacks animagus form. :evil:
But please tell me if you have other theories about Lucius recognising Sirius.

I still say Voldemort kills him in the end because "he knows, the dark lord always knows".
I think you are overestimating Voldemort. He is powerful, he is dangerous but he isn´t that smart.

LaurenLeigh
August 2nd, 2004, 5:58 am
I believe that Snape is on DD's side in an effort to redeem himself, it must be something similiar to that for DD to trust him as much as he does. Plus if he wasn't on DD's side wouldn't he have just let Quirrel kill Harry right off during Quiditch?

I also believe that Snape plays a sort of double agent role, giving the Dark Lord very vague information about the happenings with Harry and such as sort of pacifier in order to keep up appearences and stay within the Dark Lord's inner circle collecting valid information for the order.

As for JK's 'Don't feel too sorry for Snape' comment I tend to believe that this refers more to Snape's past and personal life than anything else.

SupFiggy
August 2nd, 2004, 7:39 am
In the fifth book it has shown Dumbledore is not human do to his flaw that he says, perhaps he will yet make another mistake by his trust for snape

But I am dying to know what Snape did for DD to know he was truly converted to the good side. I'm obviously thinking since he was on the side to kill Harry, he must have saved Harry somehow, yet I don't know

LuvHP_001
August 2nd, 2004, 7:45 am
I have thought a great deal about this. sorry if i'm confusing and pls just respect the fact that this is my opinion. and there's just a tad bit of review here.

Snape teaches Potions at Hogwarts while everyone know that he wants the DADA job. If Dumbledore really does trust snape,why doesn't he give him the job? I mean,Snape is good at it,so why not? MAYBE he doesn't trust him fully.We also know that Snape used to be a deatheater. Whether Snape wanted to be one or not,is unknown.Sirius and James did NOT get along with Snape at all, and both are in a way related to Harry.

On one hand,there is a possibility that Snape IS on the good side. He might just want to teach DADA to protect people from dark wizards,perhaps because he couldn't do anything if for example Voldemort forced Snape.
Snape DOES work for "The Order", and doesn't seem to hesitate (too much,lol) when he needs to help Harry.Also,Voldemort said that one of his servants that escaped from him will pay; could it be Snape because he wanted to be on the good side?

Then again,on the other hand,this could all be a plan or a disguise. Think about it, what if Snape is still working with Voldemort (he might have joined him of free will to get revenge on James by doing so on Harry instead). He might be just ignorant to not understand Harry ISN'T James.
He might be just spying on Dumbledore and Harry. Plus, he didn't seem to mind Umbridge too much.

Most importantly, Lucius Malfoy says he LIKES Snape. I mean, Lucius would be told by Voldemort about which of his Servants escaped, and if it was Snape, why would he be so nice to him? Snape also seems to like Draco and Lucius, so they could be friends just ploting away hell.

Also importantly, it could have been Snape who told Voldemort where Sirius and "The Order" were and THEN informed the member of "The Order" for them to look for Harry and Sirius and get them killed.

Sorry for my blabbing, i really wanted to share this. Again, DON'T kill me, it's just theories and opinions.

Poledra
August 2nd, 2004, 8:34 am
I wonder how Voldemort doesn't know that Snape is working for Dumbledore. Forget occlumency, remember Snape's conversation with Quirrill? Snape was questioning Quirrill's loyalty to Dumbledore while Voldemort was possessing Quirrill. So I think Voldemort really knows what Snape is up to. But I think Snape is being used by Voldemort and will be killed.

This is a good point. Earlier in v1 of this thread we were discussing whether Snape is the "one who . . . has left me forever" or the "one who is too cowardly to return." While I don't think Snape is the cowardly one, it doesn't make sense for him to be a spy when Voldemort is aware that Snape has left him forever.

Voldemort had plenty of opportunities to watch Snape in PS/SS. Sitting on the back of Quirrel's head, he would have been able to hear everything Snape (or anyone else) said, including when Snape was questioning Quirrel's loyalty to Dumbledore. I think Snape is walking on very thin ice to return to the Death Eater's fold when Voldemort is fully aware that there is some sort of relationship between Dumbledore and Snape.

This implies that something else is going on.

LuvHP_001
August 2nd, 2004, 8:53 am
Originally Posted by JDR237
I wonder how Voldemort doesn't know that Snape is working for Dumbledore. Forget occlumency, remember Snape's conversation with Quirrill? Snape was questioning Quirrill's loyalty to Dumbledore while Voldemort was possessing Quirrill. So I think Voldemort really knows what Snape is up to. But I think Snape is being used by Voldemort and will be killed.

whoa! never thought of that before.....whoa!!! great point! whoa!!! ok..i'm gonna be quiet!

Miss OliverWood
August 2nd, 2004, 9:23 am
I don't think Snape is bad. Sure, he really isn't Harry's biggest fan, but that doesn't mean that he's not loyal to DD. It'll be interesting to find out what is was that he did to regain DD's trust.. I think Snape will possibly be vital in finding out more info on Voldie and what is happening on that side. He has to be "friends" with the malfoys. If he acts suss of course he's going to be outed. He's not evil.

Katelyn
August 2nd, 2004, 10:11 am
we all know that Dumbledore makes mistakes, but he is neither blind nor stupid. He wouldnt have Snape on his side unless he was 100% sure of Snapes intentions. As for the conversation with Quirrrel, wasnt that before voldemort decided to "keep a closer eye on him" by possessing him or whatever it was he did? If so then it is possible that Voldemort never heard that conversation and is as yet clueless to the fact that Snape is spying for Dumbledore, which IMO is what he is doing.
Snape may act evil, and he does some nasty things, but if he started being nice and handing out pansies at the start of class, some of the slytherins would get suspicious and tell their death eater parents.

Starlight
August 2nd, 2004, 12:04 pm
How could Lucius recognise Sirius? Did I forget something about him being an animagus going public? As far as I know he couldn´t have known. Don´t you think Snape told him?

I think Wormtail must've told Voldemort and he then told the DEs. Bellatrix also knew that Sirius was an Animagus, at the end of OotP she called Sirius "the Animagus Black."

As for JK's 'Don't feel too sorry for Snape' comment I tend to believe that this refers more to Snape's past and personal life than anything else.

:sigh: JKR never said to not feel sorry for him, she said to not think him too nice.

Snape teaches Potions at Hogwarts while everyone know that he wants the DADA job. If Dumbledore really does trust snape,why doesn't he give him the job? I mean,Snape is good at it,so why not? MAYBE he doesn't trust him fully.

Yes, this is something I've thought about too. It seems odd that DD claims to trust Snape fully, beyond a doubt, but not enough to let him teach DADA. Also, I wonder if there's a slight rift between DD and Snape over this. The way that Snape reminds ImposterMoody that DD trusts him, it seems like DD's trust in him means a lot to Snape, so to be denied the DADA job based on a lack of trust might leave Snape feeling that he'll never fully have DD's trust untill he gets the DADA job. Maybe that's why he wants the job so much - he won't feel completly trusted and a part of DD's 'family' untill he's given the DADA job. It's not the job itself that's important to Snape, it's what it represents.

As for why DD doesn't give him the job, JKR said in an interview that DD is afraid that it would bring out the worst in Snape. This could mean either DD is afraid that Snape could be lured back to the Dark Arts (though Potions don't seem to be always whiter than white either) or, another theory that popped up in The Young Severus Snape thread is that perhaps Snape had failed his DADA OWLs because of the Maruader's bullying and that "the worst in him" DD is worried about is that Snape will be jealous of any students who do pass the their DADA OWLs, so he'll make sure that they fail too, as a sort of 'revenge', or maybe push them too much to make them as good as he was.

[Edit]Slightly OT, but Snape has taught DADA, even though it was only as a temp for Lupin when he was ill. I think maybe DD offered Snape the chance to teach a little DADA that year on the condition he stopped whining about Lupin being hired.

Plus, he didn't seem to mind Umbridge too much.

Oh, I think he detested Umbridge as much as everyone else, but he played it down a bit so that he didn't get kicked out along with the the other teachers and like the other Order members. He was the last (known) member of the Order left, and if had been kicked out earlier, there would have been no-one for Harry to warn about Sirius being in danger.

Most importantly, Lucius Malfoy says he LIKES Snape. I mean, Lucius would be told by Voldemort about which of his Servants escaped, and if it was Snape, why would he be so nice to him? Snape also seems to like Draco and Lucius, so they could be friends just ploting away hell.

This could just be Snape acting, keeping in the Malfoy's good books so he can get info and pass it on to DD. Being nice to Umbridge may have been a part of this same act, too, as it seems that Snape was recomended to her by Lucius, so Snape couldn't suddenly act like a completly different person than someone who Lucius would approved of.

Also importantly, it could have been Snape who told Voldemort where Sirius and "The Order" were and THEN informed the member of "The Order" for them to look for Harry and Sirius and get them killed.

Nah, I think the DEs were already waiting in the DoM for Harry, but didn't plan on anyone else turning up. Though we can't be sure whether Snape was in league with Voldemort at that time untill it's resolved once and for all which side Snape is on, and we may be kept guessing about that untill Book 7.

no1 potter fan
August 2nd, 2004, 12:09 pm
I wonder how Voldemort doesn't know that Snape is working for Dumbledore. Forget occlumency, remember Snape's conversation with Quirrill? Snape was questioning Quirrill's loyalty to Dumbledore while Voldemort was possessing Quirrill. So I think Voldemort really knows what Snape is up to. Another point, Snape could not have been at the graveyard b/c he would have had to apparate, and he could not do that inside Hogwarts, so he at least has a good cover story for why he was not there. But I think Snape is being used by Voldemort and will be killed.

that has been on my mind since I just finished reading PS/SS for the 5th time.

michaela
August 2nd, 2004, 12:23 pm
I don't see how Voldermort wouldn't realise that Snape is on the other side, because he isn't exactly stupid.

Aberforth2
August 2nd, 2004, 4:55 pm
I can tell easily Snapes status with Voldemort, or with one of his death eaters at least. Or else its an act Lucius Malfoy put on.
In book 5, near the end, when Umbridge asks snape for the Veritaserum (When he does not have any made) she says "Lucius Malfoy always speaks so highly of you" when snape gave the news that he had no veritaserum made. Of course voldemort mentioned death eaters that had been lost in GoF, but maybe snape is not one of them. Or else it was just Malfoy acting for some reason with Umbridge.

ianus
August 2nd, 2004, 7:00 pm
Sorry for just bursting into the middle of the conversationa, but... I have a problem-sort-of question: aren't we taking the spy-thing in a much too classical, muggle-like way? Why do we all (including me :sad: , most of the time) assume, that spying on Voldemort must mean being near him, getting in observable contact with him? Or if does mean that, must Snape do it in his actual form (think of a possible shapeshifting, animagus or similar thing)? Well, just a thought, trying to look clever and all.
But I am absolutely convinced that Snape is on the good side, even if he is a frustrated, hateful man. He thinks more of himself than to give in to voldemort again. And despite his "friendship" with the DE, you never hear him talking about halfbloods and mudbloods...

Acheeko
August 2nd, 2004, 9:16 pm
I think that Snape is on Dumbledore's side, however nasty and evil he may seem. After all, Dumbledore trusts him, and that's enough evidence for me.

SarahBetz1
August 2nd, 2004, 10:41 pm
Snape is on the Order's side. He is one we love to hate because of so much grief he gives Gryffindor (which originated from his years as a student). Yes, he seems to hate Harry and his gang, but all together he is working for the Order, and would ultimately use himself to protect any of the students of Hogwarts. (Example: When he went to the Shrieking Shack. I am sure some of his motive was to protect Harry, Hermione and Ron from Sirius and Lupin-who was about to turn into a werewolf) Besides, if he did want Voldemort to return, I am sure he would have helped Quirrell in the first book.

LaurenLeigh
August 3rd, 2004, 12:14 am
Starlight, thank you for point that misquote out, my apologies. *blushes*

Still, I believe that it is because of what Snape is done in the past that JK says that. One always must keep in mind that Snape, if he's reforming or not, is certainly no angel.

I also agree with Tao that we sometimes overestimate the Dark Lord, he's not a super brain or anything, just very persuasive.

Also does anyone else have a problem with the fact that DD was unaware about Quirrel? We're lead to believe that DD is semi-omniscient but if he was so then wouldn't he have known about Quirrel instead of it being left up to Snape? Snape was the only one with suspicions that we know of.

Sorry if that was a tad off topic but the mentioning of Quirrel brought it up. I am also wondering if the Dark Lord was aware of what Snape said to Quirrel but he was very weak at the time and so might have been unconscious perhaps? Just a suggestion since currently there is no other answer.

toryvic
August 3rd, 2004, 2:32 am
Sorry if that was a tad off topic but the mentioning of Quirrel brought it up. I am also wondering if the Dark Lord was aware of what Snape said to Quirrel but he was very weak at the time and so might have been unconscious perhaps? Just a suggestion since currently there is no other answer.
this is the only bit that really stumps me about the whole 'what side is Snape really on' argument.
Surely if Voldemort heard the S/Q exchange, then he would have known that Snape was no longer a wrong-un, and therefore would have possibly encouraged Quirrel to try and bump off Snape at the same time as Harry.
If we assume that Snape didn't know that Quirrel and Voldemort were sharing the same head then when Snape learned the truth about what went on through the trapdoor, he'd have been very concerned that his cover as a spy was now blown.
Also, if Voldemort knows that Snape is a traitor, why has a whole year passed in which he's not sought some kind of vengence for his lack of loyalty?
Is he trying to lull Snape into a false sense of security? Is he trying to avoid the wider wizarding world finding out about his renewed plans for world domination? Or is he simply none the wiser?

I don't agree necessarily with the comment that Voldemort is not some sort of superbrain--it doesn't pay to be a thick evil dictator!!

LaurenLeigh
August 3rd, 2004, 5:25 am
The S/Q exchange indeed is a catch in the plot. I don't think Snape, as bright as he is and as suspicious as he is, would be able to be lulled into a false sense of security very easily.

I agree with you toryvic that had the Dark Lord known that Snape was not on his side that he would've finished Snape off a while ago along with Harry but perhaps Snape has something the Dark Lord wants, maybe Snape's skills in potions keeps him from getting the axe? Or perhaps The Dark Lord didn't hear Snape talking since it appears to me that Quirrel had to be sort of inactive in a sense while the Dark Lord was speaking.

Anyone else think this might be a possiblity?

Also, I don't think Voldemort is completely thick but surely if he was far more intelligent than Dumbledore or anyone else he would've succeded in killing Harry by now? Or at least figured out that Snape is conning him.

P.S.
Toryvic, love the signature. I would've been more attentive in Math class as well, hehe.

JDR237
August 3rd, 2004, 5:48 am
OK, as far as Voldemorte not being super smart....and overestimating him...come on guys, in JKRs world he has basically CREATED dark arts powerful enough to give him powers near enough to make him immortal. Not to mention how as a student he was a prefect and fooled every teacher except Dumbledore. Oh, he's smart and he is a legilimens and occlumence...I believe it is highly possible he is using Snape and Snape may not even be aware of it.

LuvHP_001
August 3rd, 2004, 7:27 am
Yes, this is something I've thought about too. It seems odd that DD claims to trust Snape fully, beyond a doubt, but not enough to let him teach DADA. Also, I wonder if there's a slight rift between DD and Snape over this. The way that Snape reminds ImposterMoody that DD trusts him, it seems like DD's trust in him means a lot to Snape, so to be denied the DADA job based on a lack of trust might leave Snape feeling that he'll never fully have DD's trust untill he gets the DADA job. Maybe that's why he wants the job so much - he won't feel completly trusted and a part of DD's 'family' untill he's given the DADA job. It's not the job itself that's important to Snape, it's what it represents.

As for why DD doesn't give him the job, JKR said in an interview that DD is afraid that it would bring out the worst in Snape. This could mean either DD is afraid that Snape could be lured back to the Dark Arts (though Potions don't seem to be always whiter than white either) or, another theory that popped up in The Young Severus Snape thread is that perhaps Snape had failed his DADA OWLs because of the Maruader's bullying and that "the worst in him" DD is worried about is that Snape will be jealous of any students who do pass the their DADA OWLs, so he'll make sure that they fail too, as a sort of 'revenge', or maybe push them too much to make them as good as he was.

[Edit]Slightly OT, but Snape has taught DADA, even though it was only as a temp for Lupin when he was ill. I think maybe DD offered Snape the chance to teach a little DADA that year on the condition he stopped whining about Lupin being hired.



Oh, I think he detested Umbridge as much as everyone else, but he played it down a bit so that he didn't get kicked out along with the the other teachers and like the other Order members. He was the last (known) member of the Order left, and if had been kicked out earlier, there would have been no-one for Harry to warn about Sirius being in danger.



This could just be Snape acting, keeping in the Malfoy's good books so he can get info and pass it on to DD. Being nice to Umbridge may have been a part of this same act, too, as it seems that Snape was recomended to her by Lucius, so Snape couldn't suddenly act like a completly different person than someone who Lucius would approved of.



Nah, I think the DEs were already waiting in the DoM for Harry, but didn't plan on anyone else turning up. Though we can't be sure whether Snape was in league with Voldemort at that time untill it's resolved once and for all which side Snape is on, and we may be kept guessing about that untill Book 7.

These are all great points!

It's just the fact that if Snape IS acting to be friends with the Malfoys, and we are told that Snape IS the DE that escaped from Voldemort,wouldn't Lucius tell Voldemort about Snape's whereabouts? UNLESS, Snape came back to Voldemort.

Trisha
August 3rd, 2004, 9:16 am
This just reminded me of Snape's using the Invisibility Cloak to follow Harry and Co. into the Shrieking Shack in "Prisoner of Azkaban." Maybe whatever Dumbledore uses to become invisible also works for Snape (I believe the headmaster said somewhere that he didn't need an Invisibility Cloak to do that, can't remember which book.)

As for the relationship with Lucius Malfoy, perhaps it's not just for appearances.
Malfoy seems to be positioning himself for Voldemort's favorite henchman. What if Snape can somehow spy on the Death Eaters through him?
It could be through mind-reading (yeah, yeah, the mind is not a book, yada yada) or by somehow hitching a ride when Lucius goes to a D.E. soiree.
I get it! Snape is an Animagus and can turn into -- a flea! A little, beady-eyed flea hopping about in Malfoy's hair, scratching notes in the dandruff....

fubby
August 3rd, 2004, 9:20 am
I don't doubt Snape's loyalty, it's always the people we think are the nicest, or weakest that always turn out to be the big evil badazz's. For instance Quirrel. Snape would no way be intentionally against Dumbledore. I think Snape just tortures Harry so much well because he hates James but also because if he doesn't, who's going to keep Harry from becomming an arrogant jerk like his father?

quietmind
August 3rd, 2004, 9:31 am
I think Snape is ultimately on Dumbledore's side, but I wouldn't be overly surprised to see a betrayal.

When reading OoTP, I was rather drawn to the beginning of Harry's lessons with Snape, when he hears Voldemort laughing during a dream or vision. It seems to be about the prison breakout, but given Rowling's subtlety in past books, I wondered if it could be her way of telling us that Voldemort was actually pleased about gaining increased access to Harry's mind.

Starlight
August 3rd, 2004, 10:12 am
:grumble: Everything I typed just vanished before I could post it! AAAAHHHH! Now I have to start again...

Re: Why Snape hasn't been killed yet -

Maybe Voldemort just can't get at Snape? The only time we've seen Snape outside of Hogwarts is at Grimmauld Place and in both places he'd be safe.

As for why Lucius doesn't turn him in, maybe Voldemort has a bigger plan for Snape, and Lucius has to pretend that he doesn't know. But then maybe Snape knows that Lucius knows. And maybe Lucius knows that Snape knows. And that Snape knows that Lucius knows that Snape knows. And that - well, you get the idea.

Or Malfoy doesn't know. When Voldemort was talking about "the one who has left forever," he never said who that was exactly.

Aberforth2
August 3rd, 2004, 8:24 pm
He mentioned karkaroff fleeing, maybe the other was Bagman? Wild shot there, or someone harry trusts that may betray him.

fleur822
August 3rd, 2004, 8:32 pm
"dumbledore trusts snape, and if we can't trust dumbledore, we can't trust anyone"

sorry this isnt 100% accurate-i dont have my OotP with me.

GredandFeorge
August 3rd, 2004, 8:53 pm
But can we trust Dumbledore? In the first and fourth books there are two very tiny, but in my mind, significant moments where Dumbledore's reactions could be interpreted as questionable. In the first book, when Dumbledore is explaining what has happened at the Potter's house and it goes as follows:

McG.: "That's not all. They're saying he tried to kill the Potter's son...but they're saying that when he couldn't kill Harry Potter, Voldemort's power somehow broke - and that's why he's gone.'
Dumbledore nodded glumly. (Philosopher's Stone, pg. 15 Canadian edition)

Now why would this make him glum - the fact that Voldemort's power has broken?

Also, in book 4, after the maze, Harry is explaining to Dumbledore that Voldemort stole blood from he, so he could have some of the same protection Harry enjoys. It goes as follows:

"When Harry told of Wormtail piercing his arm with the dagger...Dumbledore stood up so quickly that Harry started..Harry showed them both the place where his robes were torn, and the cut beneath them. "He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's" Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the protection my - my mother left in me - he'd have it too. And he was right - he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face". For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it..." (GofF pg. 604 Canadian edition).

Neither of these are conclusive, but I do find them highly suspicious.

Lord Nicholai
August 3rd, 2004, 8:58 pm
the first is obviously sadness at how voldemorts "downfall" ended the potters

the second is my absolute favourite passage for spawning theories! couldnt it be that this triumph comes form discovering a weakness, not a new strength? Meaning Harrys blood paves the way to killing Voldemort. I still thinkwe can trust DD

michaela
August 3rd, 2004, 9:03 pm
It would make Dumbledore glum because he always thought at that time that Voldermort wasnt utterly destroyed, and it was only a matter of time before he came back. Dumbledore would of known that when Voldermort did come back he would be more powerful then ever before.
About Voldermort having Harry's blood in him, and Lily's protection over Harry, maybe at one point Voldermort would not be able to control this, as it is all love, and Voldermort couldn't bear to be in a body with so much love. I also thought that Harry has got the strongest blood here because of the love his mother had for him, that Harry would always be stronger than Voldermort, even if Voldermort had some of this blood.

toryvic
August 4th, 2004, 1:13 am
hem hem, back on topic ;)

I trust Snape (not that my opinion of him counts for much I am rather biased) and I think that Dumbledore trusts Snape as well, but he could trust him more.
Hasn't JK suggested that the reason that Dumbledore hasn't given Snape the DADA job is because he's not fully confident in giving Snape that sort of power...or something to that effect (it just came back to me, deep from the lowest pits of my mind)
Personally I think he'd make a great DADA teacher, he's very efficient, and surely would be able to teach to a far higher standard than any of the other previous Professors (he criticized Lupin's methods, which implies that he may be able to do a better job)

I get it! Snape is an Animagus and can turn into -- a flea! A little, beady-eyed flea hopping about in Malfoy's hair, scratching notes in the dandruff....
this also takes me back to a question somebody asked JK about what form Snape's animagus or boggart would take, I seem to recall that her answer was something along the general lines of, not wanting to say anything because it would give too much away about him.

Well...if his animagus form was an ant or something similarly tiny, surely that would hint at how he's spied successfully for so long without getting caught. Just trying to bring ideas together :p

Vilks
August 4th, 2004, 1:38 am
I think the one that left and will be killed is Karkaroff (I think that was his name). The one from the school Viktor Krum is in. Remeber that in the GoF he kept bothering Snape about the Death mark in their arms bothering and hurting. And at the end of GoF, they said that he run away and they were looking for a new headmaster for that school. Also, I think Snape (as much as I don't like him); is on the good side. Dumbledore has never been wrong about the people he trust.

tao
August 4th, 2004, 4:17 am
OK, as far as Voldemorte not being super smart....and overestimating him...come on guys, in JKRs world he has basically CREATED dark arts powerful enough to give him powers near enough to make him immortal. Not to mention how as a student he was a prefect and fooled every teacher except Dumbledore. Oh, he's smart and he is a legilimens and occlumence...I believe it is highly possible he is using Snape and Snape may not even be aware of it.
Want to explain that: Riddle is surly extremly talented with magic and not stupid but he is not so much the thinker - very much like Harry! He is more foward not sitting back making plans. Doesn´t mean that he doesn´t come up with plans once in a while, but he always takes the fastest and directest route - much like Harry! That doesn´t make him stupid but of course vulnarable.
We know how he treats his unfaithfull DEs. They have to get on their knees, kiss his robes and say that they are sorry and will be faithfull now and he forgives them - very much to Barty Crouch Jr´s displeasure.
I think Snape could have done the same. He also had a friendly relationship with Malfoy all the years. If Voldemort asks Malfoy... And being the head of Slytherin house must sound OK even if DD is headmaster. Also Snape is afraid of V while V wouldn´t think of him too much. He might be suprised.
I see a possibility that Snape is used by Voldemort in the end but my money is on Snape to fool Voldemort.
... aren't we taking the spy-thing in a much too classical, muggle-like way? Why do we all (including me :sad: , most of the time) assume, that spying on Voldemort must mean being near him, getting in observable contact with him? Or if does mean that, must Snape do it in his actual form (think of a possible shapeshifting, animagus or similar thing)? Well, just a thought, trying to look clever and all. ...
Yes but we already had that with Rita Skeeter, wouldn´t using exactly the same story again seem a little boring.
And why explaining the whole Occlumency-thing, then?

LuvHP_001
August 4th, 2004, 4:35 am
:grumble: Everything I typed just vanished before I could post it! AAAAHHHH! Now I have to start again...

Re: Why Snape hasn't been killed yet -

Maybe Voldemort just can't get at Snape? The only time we've seen Snape outside of Hogwarts is at Grimmauld Place and in both places he'd be safe.

As for why Lucius doesn't turn him in, maybe Voldemort has a bigger plan for Snape, and Lucius has to pretend that he doesn't know. But then maybe Snape knows that Lucius knows. And maybe Lucius knows that Snape knows. And that Snape knows that Lucius knows that Snape knows. And that - well, you get the idea.

Or Malfoy doesn't know. When Voldemort was talking about "the one who has left forever," he never said who that was exactly.

Great points! There are just too much evidence that make me believe that Snape isn't that trustworthy, althought there are things that make me believe he's good guy.

I personally find him to be a very complex character to figure out. The only person that knows all about him is Snape J.K., i just can't wait for the 6th and 7th book to find out more about him and others.

Elf
August 4th, 2004, 4:58 am
This has probably been said a bazillion times, but I'll say it anyway. I think the name "Severus" is symbollic of Snape severing his ties with Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Plain and simple, but to the point.

SupFiggy
August 4th, 2004, 5:06 am
Also I would like to know why Snape didn't seem anywhere near worried about the Dark Mark. Of course he knew from his arm Voldemort was regaining power, yet why did he show such calmness if he was marked for death due to betrayal?

JDR237
August 4th, 2004, 5:36 am
[QUOTE=tao]Want to explain that: Riddle is surly extremly talented with magic and not stupid but he is not so much the thinker - very much like Harry! He is more foward not sitting back making plans. Doesn´t mean that he doesn´t come up with plans once in a while, but he always takes the fastest and directest route - much like Harry! That doesn´t make him stupid but of course vulnarable.
We know how he treats his unfaithfull DEs. They have to get on their knees, kiss his robes and say that they are sorry and will be faithfull now and he forgives them - very much to Barty Crouch Jr´s displeasure.
I think Snape could have done the same. He also had a friendly relationship with Malfoy all the years. If Voldemort asks Malfoy... And being the head of Slytherin house must sound OK even if DD is headmaster. Also Snape is afraid of V while V wouldn´t think of him too much. He might be suprised.
I see a possibility that Snape is used by Voldemort in the end but my money is on Snape to fool Voldemort.

What makes Voldemorte vulnerable is not his inability to think, it's his arrogance, which I guess IS stupid of him...I just don't buy into him not knowing about Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore (I believe Snape IS a true member of the Order). Snape probably has fooled Malvoy, but he's had the previously mentioned conversation with Quirrill, and think about how much Scabbers may have picked up while hanging out with Ron and Harry.

SupFiggy
August 4th, 2004, 6:49 am
[QUOTE=tao]Want to explain that: Riddle is surly extremly talented with magic and not stupid but he is not so much the thinker - very much like Harry! He is more foward not sitting back making plans. Doesn´t mean that he doesn´t come up with plans once in a while, but he always takes the fastest and directest route - much like Harry! That doesn´t make him stupid but of course vulnarable.
We know how he treats his unfaithfull DEs. They have to get on their knees, kiss his robes and say that they are sorry and will be faithfull now and he forgives them - very much to Barty Crouch Jr´s displeasure.
I think Snape could have done the same. He also had a friendly relationship with Malfoy all the years. If Voldemort asks Malfoy... And being the head of Slytherin house must sound OK even if DD is headmaster. Also Snape is afraid of V while V wouldn´t think of him too much. He might be suprised.
I see a possibility that Snape is used by Voldemort in the end but my money is on Snape to fool Voldemort.

What makes Voldemorte vulnerable is not his inability to think, it's his arrogance, which I guess IS stupid of him...I just don't buy into him not knowing about Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore (I believe Snape IS a true member of the Order). Snape probably has fooled Malvoy, but he's had the previously mentioned conversation with Quirrill, and think about how much Scabbers may have picked up while hanging out with Ron and Harry.

But I remember reading that all the DEs didn't know all the other DEs names, Voldemort didn't want it incase one of them was captured and tehy had to give over names. Perhaps Lucious never even knew Snape was in the DE group due to his lack of knowledge, since Voldemort didn't mention any names that had left him in the fourth book

crooksookshanks
August 4th, 2004, 7:19 am
I agree with Supfiggy that there's something we do not know yet about Harry's and Snape's relationship. I think DD must have a darn good reason for assuring Harry that Snape is on their side! After all, DD is a very wise man and must know who Snape really is and what is in his heart.

Starlight
August 4th, 2004, 9:35 am
Slightly off topic, I know, but I just wanted to add something to the "Can Dumbledore be trusted" thing -

"Snape is now no more a Death Eater than I am."

:huh: Hmm....

I can't really see what Dumbledore is up too if he is evil, but it would certainly be one bleep of a twist.

SupFiggy
August 4th, 2004, 9:37 am
Slightly off topic, I know, but I just wanted to add something to the "Can Dumbledore be trusted" thing -

"Snape is now no more a Death Eater than I am."

:huh: Hmm....

I can't really see what Dumbledore is up too if he is evil, but it would certainly be one bleep of a twist.

yes, due to Dumbledores mistake with Snape (The James/Snape prejudice on Harry thingy) it shows that Dumbledore's trust with people with sometimes TOO MUCH trust in them, as powerful as he is, he must be more cautious nowadays

crush_daniel
August 4th, 2004, 9:55 am
:huh: I think that Snape can be trusted b'cause Dumbledore knows the charecter of every person & he trusts him. but i feel that Snape will die in the 6 or 7 book as voldemort had said that all those who betray him will eventually have to pay........ I hope he dies cause I really hate him. :evil: Whtcha do ya think?????? :eyebrows:

Barbara Kennedy
August 4th, 2004, 10:07 am
How many of you have actually looked at what Snape does in the books, instead of what he says? Most of what I've seen in the books is him protecting Harry or trying to rescue Harry.
He complains about having to do it and about how Harry acts, but he does protect him.
A lot of what he says in OotP reflect the same things that Molly says, he just says it in his own snarky manner.

Does everyone judge Snape by what Ron says about him ? Ron clearly has his mind made up about him the first day of school in the first book and isn't about to change it.
I'm just curious..

SupFiggy
August 4th, 2004, 10:12 am
How many of you have actually looked at what Snape does in the books, instead of what he says? Most of what I've seen in the books is him protecting Harry or trying to rescue Harry.
He complains about having to do it and about how Harry acts, but he does protect him.
A lot of what he says in OotP reflect the same things that Molly says, he just says it in his own snarky manner.

Does everyone judge Snape by what Ron says about him ? Ron clearly has his mind made up about him the first day of school in the first book and isn't about to change it.
I'm just curious..

Yes but the reason many of us are not too excited when it comes to Snape is because he has grown such a reputation towards Harry that Harry cannot trust Snape in any way whatsoever, even if he is lying but has good intentions, Harry cannot feel any hope Snape is doing the right thing. And the fact that he was a DE adds on to everything Harry can hate about Snape in a way Harry will think Snape will let his emotions of Harry get in his way of goodness.

Example is: When Snape says he knows nothing of who Padfoot is in Umbridge's office, Harry cannot trust Snape (due to hate) that he will inform the order, and Harry believes his emotions will get in the way of the right thing to do, therefore leading Harry to do reckless acts.

^ I hope that wasn't too confusing, lol

Barbara Kennedy
August 4th, 2004, 11:57 am
Yes but the reason many of us are not too excited when it comes to Snape is because he has grown such a reputation towards Harry that Harry cannot trust Snape in any way whatsoever, even if he is lying but has good intentions, Harry cannot feel any hope Snape is doing the right thing. And the fact that he was a DE adds on to everything Harry can hate about Snape in a way Harry will think Snape will let his emotions of Harry get in his way of goodness.

Example is: When Snape says he knows nothing of who Padfoot is in Umbridge's office, Harry cannot trust Snape (due to hate) that he will inform the order, and Harry believes his emotions will get in the way of the right thing to do, therefore leading Harry to do reckless acts.

^ I hope that wasn't too confusing, lol
So, you mean you don't like Snape because of what Harry did/said/believed?

I thought that incident was explained to Harry in this part of the book.


From American version OotP, page 832-833 -
“What about Snape?” Harry spat. “You’re not talking about him, are you? When I told him Voldemort had Sirius he just sneered at me as usual-”
“Harry, you know that Professor Snape had no choice but to pretend not to take you seriously in front of Dolores Umbridge,” said Dumbledore steadily, “but as I have explained, he informed the Order as soon as possible about what you had said. It was he who deduced where you had gone when you did not return from the forest. It was he who gave Professor Umbridge fake Veritaserum when she was attempting to force you to tell of Sirius’ whereabouts….”
Harry disregarded this; he felt a savage pleasure in blaming Snape, it seemed to be easing his own sense of dreadful guilt, and he wanted to hear Dumbledore agree with him.
Snape – Snape g-goaded Sirius about staying in the house – he made out Sirius was a coward –“
“Sirius was much too old and clever to have allowed such feeble taunts to hurt him,” said Dumbledore.
“Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons!” Harry snarled. “He threw me out of his office!”
“I am aware of it,” said Dumbledore heavily. “I have already said that it was a mistake for me not to teach you myself, though I was sure, at the time, that nothing could have been more dangerous than to open your mind even further to Voldemort while in my presence – “
“Snape made it worse, my scar always hurt worse after lessons with him -” Harry remembered Ron’s thoughts on the subject and plunged on. “How do you know he wasn’t trying to soften me up for Voldemort, make it easier to get inside my -”
“I trust Severus Snape,” said Dumbledore simply. “But I forgot – another old man’s mistake – that some wounds are run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father – I was wrong.”

SiriusBlack22
August 4th, 2004, 12:32 pm
I have expressed my doubts about Snape before... but I just don't think Dumbledore is wrong. He trusts Snape and I think that's enough. There isn't much evidence to support the fact that Snape would be on the side of Voldemort and there is more evidence to support the fact that he is on the good side...(not trying to get all Star Wars on you but...) Sure he calls him the 'Dark Lord', but in the end what does that all amount to? Nothing.

Dana_Scully
August 4th, 2004, 12:40 pm
I agree. Calling him 'the dark lord' is more out of respect born of fear (maybe) than anything else. Anyway, what about what Voldemort himself said in GoF - 'One who has left me forever...he will be killed, of course' (paraphrased slightly because I don't have the text in frontof me) I think most people assume that he was talking about Snape then - so if Voldemort says that in front of his own Death Eaters, when he would have no reason to lie or mislead them, then it seems to me that Snape has to be on Dumbledore's side. I know he's not exactly an easter bunny of a character, but as Sirius told Harry, the world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters.

Just out of curiosity though, is there anyone who thinks that maybe much of the sympathy for Snape has arisen because of Alan Rickman's delicious portrayal of the character in the films?

ianus
August 4th, 2004, 6:50 pm
I agree with Supfiggy that there's something we do not know yet about Harry's and Snape's relationship. I think DD must have a darn good reason for assuring Harry that Snape is on their side! After all, DD is a very wise man and must know who Snape really is and what is in his heart.


I agree, Dumbledore is a very wise man. Bu t very wise men also make mistakes. Like not trusting somebody else's capacity to be rational. Like: if he had discussed with Harry in OotP about some things that were going on (I don't buy the "Voldemort might have found out" theory, beacuse he could have showns trust towards Harry without giving him important bits of information, but simply by paying more attention to him). And I think that as far as Snape is concerned, he is also making a mistake. Not by trusting him (I do think he is on the good side), but by not giving at least a minimal rational explantaion as to the origin of his trust. And because of that I think we will have part of some nasty/dangerous/crucial situations when Harry or someone from the order will have to decide whom to trust: the presumption that DD is always right and as such Snape is to be trusted, or his/her own experience, logics, feelings, intuition combined with the idea of the possibility that DD might be wrong (he didn't discover Quirrel in time, he trusted Barty Crouch jr. as Moody, he initially also thought that Sirius was a killer etc.). And the decision will probably not be in favour of Snape. After all, Harry didn't trust enough Snape to really try to learn occlumency, although it was DD's express wish.

Did I manage to make any sense? I am sort of afraid of rereading what I have just wrote :sad:

LuvHP_001
August 4th, 2004, 7:47 pm
Slightly off topic, I know, but I just wanted to add something to the "Can Dumbledore be trusted" thing -

"Snape is now no more a Death Eater than I am."

:huh: Hmm....

I can't really see what Dumbledore is up too if he is evil, but it would certainly be one bleep of a twist.


whoa!!!!! that'd be awesome!!! cool! :tu: :tu: :rotfl:

Dana_Scully
August 4th, 2004, 9:45 pm
I agree, Dumbledore is a very wise man. Bu t very wise men also make mistakes. Like not trusting somebody else's capacity to be rational. [...] Not by trusting him (I do think he is on the good side), but by not giving at least a minimal rational explantaion as to the origin of his trust. And because of that I think we will have part of some nasty/dangerous/crucial situations when Harry or someone from the order will have to decide whom to trust: [...]

Did I manage to make any sense? I am sort of afraid of rereading what I have just wrote :sad:

Yeah, you did!! It's okay...and I completely agree with you. I always thought that Dumbledore should have been more open with Harry, at least enough to keep him from getting himself in trouble trying to find out the truth for himself. I've always thought Dumbledore is just the **teensiest** bit arrogant, sometimes...you know, always believing that what he thinks is right and **two fingers** to anyone who thinks otherwise....He's not always right because he's human.

Maybe the issue of trust and who is worthy of it is something that JKR intends to cover in the next two books and that's why she hasn't been more specific about Snape's background and stuff before now. It'd better be one heck of a secret though, to keep us hanging on for so long!! :eyebrows:

Elf
August 4th, 2004, 9:53 pm
I think it is very important to keep in mind that Snape and Harry's relationship is a two way street. How often does Harry actually show respect for Snape either? Harry deosn't even behave in Snape's class half the time. I think both of them have just got so caught up in disliking each other that they don't know how to stop. This doesn't make Snape evil anymore than Harry is evil, rather they both simply don't know how to handle their relationship to one another.

Lord Nicholai
August 4th, 2004, 10:02 pm
I agree - the hatred has been etched into eachother since they met. Before they met in Snapes case. I doubt it could ever fade. Look at sirius and Snape...they were literally at eachothers throats in OOTP...after 15 years+ not seeing eachother"

bridg2ette
August 4th, 2004, 10:59 pm
Yeah, you did!! It's okay...and I completely agree with you. I always thought that Dumbledore should have been more open with Harry, at least enough to keep him from getting himself in trouble trying to find out the truth for himself. I've always thought Dumbledore is just the **teensiest** bit arrogant, sometimes...you know, always believing that what he thinks is right and **two fingers** to anyone who thinks otherwise....He's not always right because he's human.

Maybe the issue of trust and who is worthy of it is something that JKR intends to cover in the next two books and that's why she hasn't been more specific about Snape's background and stuff before now. It'd better be one heck of a secret though, to keep us hanging on for so long!! :eyebrows:

I dunno, everyone has made valid points, but I still feel that Snape can be trusted. Dumbledore absolutely trusts harry, but even if you trust someone, thats no reason to reveal everyone else's secrets. Dumbledore can make mistakes of course, but he obviously feels very strongly about trusting Snape, and if it was something this important, he wouldn't just guess, he would make sure his decision to trust snape was very well thought out. He also doesn't have an obligation to tell Harry every detail of his every decision.

I also agree with Barbara Kennedy on the fact that you really should take into account the actions of Snape, and try to look past his bitter attitude. He saved Harry in the first book, and at the end of the fifth book, he contacted the Order after Harry's "he's got him in the place where it's hidden!" clue...he also gave umbridge fake verisiterum (spelling?)...sorry, I know it's natural to be suspicious of him, given his past, but this seems to be a good character through which J.K. can implement the moral of forgiveness and second chances...

I could end up being totally wrong, this is just what I think at the moment...

(in response to an earlier person, my resolution to think better of Snape as a character has nothing to do with Alan Rickman's portrayal of him in the hp movies...two points at which i felt real sympathy for him was 1-when they were practicing occlumency, and harry backfired it at snape, and we were given a glimpse of his childhood, with fighting parents and a scared, unhappy young snape; and 2) when harry looked inside snape's pensieve and saw his father and sirius tormenting the outcast snape at school....
I know this is no reason to feel total compassion for his character, because he is very unpleasant, but i do believe that we now have reason to think of him as a good person, beneath his hateful, grudgeful personality.)

Lincoln
August 4th, 2004, 11:27 pm
I think Snape really is on the side of good, but I also think ianus may very well be right. There may come a time when a choice has to be made about trusting Snape and since all they have to go on is Dumbledore's word they might choose not to (even though they'd probably be wrong).

fawksrox8908
August 5th, 2004, 12:09 am
Snape's on the good side. or at least he better be. Ddore wouldn't hire someone who used to be a death eater if he didn't truly trust him. You all know how protective ddore is of his students. i don't think we should feel sorry for snape and we should keep our eye on him... basically because jkr told us to. i think he's going to do something bad before the end of the series but then redeem(sp) himself.
I also think snape was in the graveyard the night voldy came back. Remember voldy passed some death eaters in silence. and there are possible ways for snape to get there. all he has to do is go through the gates of the hogwarts grounds (which are conveniantly close to the quidditch feild which is where everyone was during the final task) and apparate there. there would be so much excitment going on no one would notice he left.

Elf
August 5th, 2004, 12:49 am
I find it extremely intriguing that Dumbledore insists Snape is trustworthy on more than one occasion, while there are many people he associates with that we merely assume he trusts. I can't think that anyone would question Dumbledore's trust in Arthur Weasley, for example, yet Dumbledore has not had to harp on the fact that he trusts him.

This makes me think that there must be an event which sealed in Dumbledore's mind that Snape is trustworthy. He doesn't just reply civilly or politely when Snape's reliability is questioned, rather he insists that Snape is to be trusted.

SupFiggy
August 5th, 2004, 2:27 am
So, you mean you don't like Snape because of what Harry did/said/believed?

I thought that incident was explained to Harry in this part of the book.

I'm saying Harry thinks Snape's emotions will get in Snape's way of doing the right thing, so Harry can have no hope in Snape to help him.

LaurenLeigh
August 5th, 2004, 7:03 am
The discussion of Dumbledore's comment about being as much a deatheater as Snape has been entertaining and gave me a few giggles but alas, we must stay on topic. So in spirit of this I propose a question, I know we're supposed to pick a certain side in which we think dear Snivellus is on but does anyone else think that Snape might be waiting to see which side gains the upper hand in the battle before choosing? I know this is highly unlikely and it seems he is very much for the The Order but he is a Slytherin after all. Just a thought.

A tidbit I found interesting, SupFiggy said: I'm saying Harry thinks Snape's emotions will get in Snape's way of doing the right thing, so Harry can have no hope in Snape to help him.

I think that this is a good point. Harry probably does think that Snape's emotions will get in the way of the rescue but after Snape saving Harry during the Qudditch match despite his feelings toward Harry, Harry should know that Snape only lets his emotions get in the way of things when he has been provoked (the pensive for example.) Snape almost always holds a very tight reign on his emotions and I believe that when someone's life is at stake Snape would not hesitate, no matter what feelings he may harbour toward that person.

Also I think that Dumbledore's repeated assurance that Snape is trustworthy is probably because the general view people have of Snape (his adoration of the darkarts, antisocialness, the monochromatic wardrobe etc) is that he's a sort of dodgy person and therefore must untrustworthy. Plus his treatment (or mistreatment) of people probably also causes questions to arise.

LS fan aSoUE
August 5th, 2004, 7:05 am
he is on the good side

ianus
August 5th, 2004, 9:10 am
I think it is very important to keep in mind that Snape and Harry's relationship is a two way street. How often does Harry actually show respect for Snape either? Harry deosn't even behave in Snape's class half the time. I think both of them have just got so caught up in disliking each other that they don't know how to stop. This doesn't make Snape evil anymore than Harry is evil, rather they both simply don't know how to handle their relationship to one another.

You are right, but I think that we should take into consideration the fact that Harry is a child (okay, a teenager, but still...) and Snape is a grown-up. As such, he should act more mature. I rectify: he should act mature. He is clever enough and experienced enough to be able not to let his feeling towards Harry's father (transfered without any reason onto Harry) control him.
And another thing: Snape seems much more keen on earning respect by inducing fear, than by using any other method. And I think that is the worst possible way. And that is why I don't think he would be a good DADA teacher, or that he is in fact a good teacher generally. I personally wouldn't be able to learn from somebody who obviously intends nothing more than to scare me, humiliate me and constantly make me feel an incompetent person.

Barbara Kennedy
August 5th, 2004, 9:19 am
You are right, but I think that we should take into consideration the fact that Harry is a child (okay, a teenager, but still...) and Snape is a grown-up. As such, he should act more mature. I rectify: he should act mature. He is clever enough and experienced enough to be able not to let his feeling towards Harry's father (transfered without any reason onto Harry) control him.
And another thing: Snape seems much more keen on earning respect by inducing fear, than by using any other method. And I think that is the worst possible way. And that is why I don't think he would be a good DADA teacher, or that he is in fact a good teacher generally. I personally wouldn't be able to learn from somebody who obviously intends nothing more than to scare me, humiliate me and constantly make me feel an incompetent person.

It is quite possible, after seeing a hint of his childhood in the Occlumency lessons, that Snape never had a role-model as a child to teach him a better way to try to gain respect. Such behavior is learned and ingrained in a person at a fairly young age.
He may be doing the best he can with what he has to work with.

LouisaB
August 5th, 2004, 9:59 am
I think Snape really is on the side of good, but I also think ianus may very well be right. There may come a time when a choice has to be made about trusting Snape and since all they have to go on is Dumbledore's word they might choose not to (even though they'd probably be wrong).

I am afraid that my thoughts do go along these lines as well. I also suspect that if they make the wrong choice and don't trust Snape (highly likely) it could put Snape into danger (even more than he is already) and could in effect be the thing that brings about his death. I am pretty much convinced that JKR is going to kill him off by the end of the series. It would be truly awful but what if he ends up getting killed rescuing Harry and Co and the reason he had to do so was because they did not trust him? :upset:

dcv
August 5th, 2004, 4:06 pm
I have a couple of unrelated thoughts here. I'll preface by saying I'm not convinced what side Snape is on, he is far too good a liar to know what is the truth and what is an act (and Barbara, that goes for his actions as well, because obviously if he wants DD to believe he has seen the error of his prior DE ways, he will act in a way that appears to be helpful to Harry.)

First, "Severus" was the name of a Roman commander who was stationed in central Britain (what is now southern Scotland, I think) in the 2nd century. He had an earthen wall built to try to keep the Picts and Scots out of Roman Britain (there was a later masonary wall built, called Hadrian's wall, but I'm unclear about whether it was built on top of the earlier earthen wall or if it is in a different spot.) Regardless, Severus' wall essentially severed the island of Britain in half, my guess is even that this is where the word "severed" originated, but that's my guess and some Latin scholar will probably slam me. The effect of the wall was that the Celtic Britons were separated from the Celtic Scots and Picts, who were then unable to overthrow the Romans, and Rome was able to continue its rule of Britain for another few hundred years. Severus Snape is figuratively building a wall between the Slytherins and Gryffindors through his unfair favoritism, at a time when the Sorting Hat is proclaiming that unity is needed. Is Severus' divisive action intended to prevent the unity needed to overthrow LV (or will that be a consequence of his action, intended or not)?

Second, let's pretend for a minute that LV already was on the back of Quirrell's head when he and Severus had their conversation. If Severus was a double-agent for LV before he became Vapormort (I love that name!) wouldn't he keep up the appearances of being on DD's side to avoid being sent to Azkaban? I mean, Karkaroff named him as a DE, and the only reason he didn't get sent to the slammer is because DD vouched for him. Additionally, appearing to stay loyal to DD keeps Severus in place to continue to spy on DD after LV's return to power. Why would Severus show his true colors if it would result in a life sentence, and also make him less useful to LV upon his return? So, Severus could have been keeping up the act when he questioned Quirrell's loyalties (and he certainly could have used his skill as an occlumens to convince LV that this was his intention, if he really is on the good side.)

Croft
August 5th, 2004, 9:58 pm
Well, I haven't really read much of the last thread, but I have always been under the impression that as evil as Snape can be at times, he is on the good side. In the first book he could have helped Quirrell bring Voldemort back, but instead he helped save Harry's life. I know Snape is a spy for the Order, and I feel like if he was a double spy (helping Voldemort), Voldemort would have known the location of Grimwauld's Place, or at least the area, and been able to attack the members of the Order by now. Even though Snape seems to have a grudge against Harry, I believe Snape will sacrifice himself, or do something to help Harry finish Voldemort.

Grimuald PLace can only be found if you get the adress from Dumblydor himslef. Like the potter had protection from Wormtial.

ianus
August 6th, 2004, 10:01 am
DCV, you might be right about Snape building up a wall between Slytherins and the others. But I do not know if this is what he really intends to. On the other hand, no matter how ugly it may sound, somehow the other three houses are united especially AGAINST the Slytherins. So it is also kinda' useful. But it is also improbable that that would be Snape's intention.

I think he indeed considers fear to be the most powerful instrument. That somehow makes him very much resemble Voldemort. On the other hand, on Voldemort's side he would never come to be really appreciated, he would never be considered a hero and - taking into consideration the way the Dark lord treats his followers - there would always be a possibility to be publicly humiliated by the DL for any kind of misundersatnding or just to be shown who the boss is. And I don't think Snape wants to be there....

Lord Nicholai
August 6th, 2004, 10:48 am
DV- a brilliant theory. I cant accept That Snape could fool DD like that, and i believe his reason for trusting him is going to be huge! So i dont think its an act. I do think hes on our side.

RemusLupinFan
August 6th, 2004, 4:09 pm
Looking at Snape's actions throughout the series, I believe they do indeed demonstrate that Snape is on Dumbledore's side. There are several of Snape's actions which I feel are particularly noteworthy in illustrating Snape's true loyalties.

1. In book one, Snape goes to great lengths to thwart Quirrel's attempts to kill Harry and to steal the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone. I believe if Snape was working against Dumbledore, he probably wouldn't have tried to interfere with Quirrel's plans because he could claim to have not known what Quirrel was doing at these times.

2. In GoF, Snape was willing to defend Dumbledore in front of Fudge when Fudge refused to believe that Voldemort had returned. If Snape had been secretly supporting Voldemort, I doubt he would have tried to convince Fudge of Voldemort's return because this was exactly what Voldemort didn't want. We know he wanted to keep his rebirth a secret because in OotP, Sirius says, "Nobody apart from his Death Eaters was supposed to know he'd come back." Therefore, the fact that Snape tried to offer confirmation of Voldemort's return strongly suggests that he genuinely is on Dumbledore's side.

3. Many of Snape's actions in OotP support my belief that Snape is indeed working for Dumbledore. After Harry communicates to Snape the fact that Sirius has been taken captive by Voldemort in the Department of Mysteries, Snape then contacts Sirius immediately. When Harry doesn't return from the Forbidden Forest, Snape then contacts members of the Order, alerting them to the fact that Harry still believed Sirius was being held by Voldemort. This clearly shows that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore. After all, he could have disregarded Harry's coded warning completely, claiming not to have understood what it meant. He could have then proceeded to contact Voldemort telling him that his plan was working.

In my opinion, the above actions best demonstrate why I believe Snape to be trustworthy. In each of these cases, if Snape was double-crossing Dumbledore, he could have chosen an alternative that didn't thwart Voldemort's plans, but also didn't arouse Dumbledore's suspicions. Also, the fact that Dumbledore makes a point of insisting that Snape is trustworthy in so many instances also solidifies that Snape is no more a Death Eater than Harry is.

Elf
August 7th, 2004, 1:45 am
original post by LaurenLeigh
Also I think that Dumbledore's repeated assurance that Snape is trustworthy is probably because the general view people have of Snape (his adoration of the darkarts, antisocialness, the monochromatic wardrobe etc) is that he's a sort of dodgy person and therefore must untrustworthy. Plus his treatment (or mistreatment) of people probably also causes questions to arise.

I think this is yet another example of Dumbledore looking past a stereotype, which many people are unable to do. Dumbledore is infamous for defending the underdog, those who are treated poorly, misunderstood or generally shunned. He gave Hagrid the game keeper job even though Hagrid is a half giant. He hired Lupin as a teacher, in spite of his werewolf affliction. Dumbledore even has an appreciate for muggles, shown by his love of something as simple as a sherbert lemon candy. Snape is yet another example of someone Dumbledore trusts in spite of a sterotype thrust on him. While many people judge by outer appearances and trivial things, Dumbledore is able to see what really matters in a person's character and trust them because of it.

Mione Weasley
August 7th, 2004, 3:08 am
I don´t think that people in general has a bad image of Snape. Fudge, Umbridge, Hagrid, a whole bunch of people seemed to have a good opinion about him. I think that HRH and Gryffindor´s students in general are the ones who doesn´t like him much. Harry´s feelings for Snape only got worse after finding that he was a Death Eater. But i don´t think that´s something that everybody knows. To begin with, nobody really knew who the DE were before Voldemort´s downfall. Then, i also don´t think that the trials were opened to the public, let´s say. Like Harry´s, there were only people from the Ministry and from the Wizengamot. I think that especially a trial important like Karkaroff´s was very private. Anyway, my point is that another reason why i think that Snape is on Dumbledore´s side, besides the ones listed by RemusLupinFan, is that Crouch Jr. while impersonating Moody seemed to really hate Snape. And i think that it means that Severus really betrayed Voldemort. If he was still his faithfull servant, Crouch Jr. wouldn´t bother him so much. I know that Moody is very suspicious, but i think he would trust Dumbledore´s judgment, wouldn´t he?? I mean, does the real Moody have doubts about Snape?? I don´t know. But Crouch Jr. really hated former DEs who denied or betrayied his master, and he really seemed to hate Snape.

His name, by the way, Severus, i don´t think it comes from severe, but from it´s latin form. In portuguese, a language that comes from latin, severo (the portuguese adaptation of severus) means something like strict, harsh, what we all know, fits our favourite potion´s master very well.

Well, it´s very likely that Voldemort knows that Snape is on Dumbledore´s side, since Crouch Jr. could know, Quirrell too, maybe Wormtail. Lucius´relationship with Snape is very weird then. Ok, so maybe Lucius doesn´t know that he is on the other side, maybe he didn´t even know that Snape was ever a DE, but you´d think that Voldemort would warn his followers about a spy, or a traitor. The fact that Lucius knows that Snape knows about Sirius being an animagi and everything is also weird. How would Lucius know that he know that if only Dumbledore, the trio and the marauders knew?? Why would´ve him told Severus such a thing??

I don´t think that Snape will die though. He is too important to the overall plot to die. He is the only connection between Voldemort´s and Dumbledore´s side, since he´s been on both sides.

Starlight
August 7th, 2004, 11:04 am
I don´t think that people in general has a bad image of Snape. Fudge, Umbridge, Hagrid, a whole bunch of people seemed to have a good opinion about him.

I'm not so sure about Fudge and Umbridge. Fudge seemed horrified when Snape showed him the Dark Mark on his arm, and when Umbridge was questioning Snape she said something about the ministry wanting a full acount of teachers "Ah, histories". That gave the feeling Fudge mentioned to her about the fact that he has the Dark Mark and told her to keep an eye on him. However, it seems that both Fudge and Umbridge were good friends with Lucius Malfoy "who always spoke most highly of Snape," and they may have decided that if Lucius thinks he's so great, then he can't be that bad. Now that Lucius is confirmed as being an actice DE though, the ministry may become very suspicious of Snape.

Dumbledore trusted Hagrid when no-one else would because he was half-giant, so I think he wouldn't doubt Dumbledore's trust in anyone else, including Snape.

Bill Weasley, a member of the Order, doesn't like him, and we all know what Sirius thought of him, but he was biased. As for everyone else (appart from the students), we don't really know what they think of him.

I know that Moody is very suspicious, but i think he would trust Dumbledore´s judgment, wouldn´t he?? I mean, does the real Moody have doubts about Snape??

In Karkaroff's trial, when Dumbledore said that Snape was no longer a DE, Moody had a very sceptical look, so we know that he at least at one point had doubts about Snape, but we don't know what he thinks of Snape now.

T_o_X_i_C
August 7th, 2004, 2:47 pm
We cant just assume that every nasty charator is going to secretly be a death eater (as Umbrige proved) i think snape is on the good side, he just holds a grudge against james, which as a result he takes his anger out on harry :evil:

Tane
August 7th, 2004, 3:33 pm
I don't know we might be tricked into believing that Snape is a bad character, a proper death eater when in fact he is still spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore. When you think about it Snape must be convincing enough as a death eater to trick Voldemort and the other death eaters so it makes sense than we are lead to believe the same thing. I think Snape might appear to be totally against the order in the next book and then in the seventh do a 180 degree and double cross Voldemort and the death eaters making us all realize that Snape is not that bad after all.

jellyjames
August 7th, 2004, 3:55 pm
I think that Snape's a good example of 'never judging a book by its cover'. That greasy professor with that evil look could in fact be a decent human being who knows the difference between good and evil *cliche.cringe* and is choosing good after all. He is not as heartless as he appears to be, except in Harry's case. Maybe his only fault is his grudging nature. hmmm...

atherella
August 7th, 2004, 8:17 pm
Harry´s feelings for Snape only got worse after finding that he was a Death Eater. But i don´t think that´s something that everybody knows. To begin with, nobody really knew who the DE were before Voldemort´s downfall. Then, i also don´t think that the trials were opened to the public, let´s say. Like Harry´s, there were only people from the Ministry and from the Wizengamot. I think that especially a trial important like Karkaroff´s was very private.

I don't think that is true about the trials being kept private. When Harry is in the hospital wing in GoF at the end, talking to Fudge and naming the DE's he saw in the graveyard, Fudge says that he could have easily found the names of the accused DE's in the trial transcripts. That seems to imply that if Harry could find the names in the transcripts that they are made public.

angel_e_riddle
August 7th, 2004, 8:19 pm
Not. Snape has proven himself being nasty but worthy. He wouldn't kill off Harry or anyone else for that matter, except perhaps some exceptions... but Î simply don't believe Snape is on the bad side.

megan amelia
August 7th, 2004, 8:38 pm
Snape makes it REALLY hard to believe he is on the good side becase of how nasty he is to Harry, the boy who has the power to vanquish Voldemort. However, we do know that he has some reason to hate Harry even if it is a very feeble one. Snape hates Harry only because of his hatred of James during their years at Hogwarts. Snape has shown numerous times that he wants Voldemort defeated. Plus Dumbledore unwaveringly trusts him, which should be quite enough proof that Snape has made the switch back to the good side.

hedwiger_lupin
August 7th, 2004, 8:49 pm
It's hard to know which side he is really on, but remenber in GoF when in the mirror of the enemies of moody (barty crouch) there was 3 shadows , this being dumbledore, mcgonagal and snape, remenber?? that lead me to think that he is really on the good side , other wise he wouln't apear like enemy of barty... am i right???

RINGO
August 7th, 2004, 8:56 pm
:eyebrows: In chamber of Secrets,when Lockhart chooses Harry and Ron,Snape says that Rons wand would hurt Harry(OK,not those words,but you get my drift)...He could have easily just let the two duel and not give a monkeys about Harry,but Snape was concerned....
Snape is the good side...


Truly,Madly,Deeply,in love with Alan Rickman (Severus Snape) :blush:

Lord Nicholai
August 7th, 2004, 9:22 pm
it could be argued that Snape merely wanted the damage done to potter in a way that would be a little more humiliating for him...hence Malfoy

michaela
August 7th, 2004, 9:26 pm
Snape then wanted to show Harry that he isn't all that great, and Snape thought that Draco would be a good match for Harry.

Elf
August 8th, 2004, 4:13 am
So do we know for certain that Snape was ever genuinely a Death Eater at all? I'm probably forgetting some profound statement, but what if he always has been a spy for the good side, even during the first war and for some reason has had to keep this information secret?

We know that Snape is in Lucius Malfoy's good books, so what if Snape has been helping keep an eye on former Death Eaters all these years. Just because Voldemort was gone didn't mean that his followers were going to become model citizens. Not to mention that there was always a chance that Voldemort would come back, meaning that there would still be a need for someone like snape to keep a watchful eye open. Snape was aquitted of any charges after the first war because Dumbledore defended him, but Snape could easily have claimed to other Death Eaters that he was playing Dumbledore. Now that Voldemort is back and there is speculation that Snape is pretending to be a Death Eater once again ,it is still a possibility that Snape has in fact never been on the side of evil at all. For the sake of resurrecting his role as double agent, perhaps he kept his good allegiances hush hush all along in order to infiltrate the Voldemort camp again if the need ever arose, which it has. If this is the case, then Snape has had to suffer being misunderstood for a very long time. Hopefully this makes sense and it is just a possibility, not a theory that I necessarily think is likely.

Starlight
August 8th, 2004, 11:25 am
I don't think that is true about the trials being kept private. When Harry is in the hospital wing in GoF at the end, talking to Fudge and naming the DE's he saw in the graveyard, Fudge says that he could have easily found the names of the accused DE's in the trial transcripts. That seems to imply that if Harry could find the names in the transcripts that they are made public.

But Fudge is the Minister for Magic. If anyone would be allowed access to resticted files, i.e. the trial transcripts, it would be him. It doesn't mean that anyone would have the same access to the files.

So do we know for certain that Snape was ever genuinely a Death Eater at all? I'm probably forgetting some profound statement, but what if he always has been a spy for the good side, even during the first war and for some reason has had to keep this information secret?

Well, during Karkaroff's hearing, (Not exact quote as I don't have the book with me) Dumbledore said that "Snape was indeed once a Death Eater, however he rejoined our side before Voldmort's downfall and turned spy for us at great personnel risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." It could be a part of the bluff, though.

jellyjames
August 8th, 2004, 11:25 am
Come to think of it, maybe the whole reason why he is being terrifically nasty to Harry is because he wants to maintain that appearance of evil to get in Malfoy's good books. They certainly do look like allies against Potter in the eyes of others. If he had been less hard on the boy, Malfoy wouldn't have such a good opinion of him now, would he?

drifting.shadow
August 8th, 2004, 11:30 am
So do we know for certain that Snape was ever genuinely a Death Eater at all? I'm probably forgetting some profound statement, but what if he always has been a spy for the good side, even during the first war and for some reason has had to keep this information secret?

We know that Snape is in Lucius Malfoy's good books, so what if Snape has been helping keep an eye on former Death Eaters all these years. Just because Voldemort was gone didn't mean that his followers were going to become model citizens. Not to mention that there was always a chance that Voldemort would come back, meaning that there would still be a need for someone like snape to keep a watchful eye open. Snape was aquitted of any charges after the first war because Dumbledore defended him, but Snape could easily have claimed to other Death Eaters that he was playing Dumbledore. Now that Voldemort is back and there is speculation that Snape is pretending to be a Death Eater once again ,it is still a possibility that Snape has in fact never been on the side of evil at all. For the sake of resurrecting his role as double agent, perhaps he kept his good allegiances hush hush all along in order to infiltrate the Voldemort camp again if the need ever arose, which it has. If this is the case, then Snape has had to suffer being misunderstood for a very long time. Hopefully this makes sense and it is just a possibility, not a theory that I necessarily think is likely.


he was a death eater once because he has the scar weather or not he is still a hardcore death eater nobody can say.

fubby
August 8th, 2004, 11:31 am
I'd like to point out in GoF while Harry was being interrogated by Barty Crouch after the maze, he saw 3 figures emerging in the Foe-Glass, then he was saved by DD, McGonagal(i can never spell her name) and Snape. So snape was Barty Crouch's enemy supposedly. JKR even emphaizes this fact by again pointing out Snape was looking at his reflection in the Foe-Glass. This is interesting to me because JKR also points out that they can be fooled. I wish i knew more how the Foe-Glass's work because it could either prove Snape's innocence if we knew Snape could've have been fooling it, or prove his guilt if we learn that Snape was fooling it. I just wonder if you can fool it to just not show you, or if you can fool it TO show you? I'm guessing on the former, in which case Snape's on our side.

Lord Nicholai
August 8th, 2004, 11:31 am
but i dont think hed have a bad opinion of him either. But agreed, it works to gain Malfoys favour. Though i definatly dont think this is his purpose. Snape isnt presenting some image. he REALLY hates harry

winter snow
August 9th, 2004, 1:30 am
Okay, here's my take on this. No one person can be ALL good or ALL bad. It doesn't work that way. All people have some redeeming qualities about them and some character traits that aren't pleasant. Characters in books are the same way because writers write about people, real or imagined. I don't feel Snape is a "bad guy" at all. I think Snape is a good guy pretending to be on Voldermort's side. Yes Snape treats Harry like the scum at the bottom of the refrigerator, but that could be just an act. This was mentioned in this thread (sorry, I don't remember who). I agree with that idea. How could Snape pull off being a spy and tipping off Lucius (about prepproved topics from DD) by being nice to harry? After all, don't forget Draco is in the same class. In short, don't judge on his behavior, try to figure out WHY he does the things he does. Besides, if Snape were on the "bad" side, that would be too easy. In SS, Jo WANTED us to think it was Snape all through the book. At the end we discover it wasn't Snape but Quirrel being controlled by Voldermort. That was a good twist! So, just remember cookies crumble in many different ways!

Elf
August 9th, 2004, 5:14 am
original post by Starlight
Well, during Karkaroff's hearing, (Not exact quote as I don't have the book with me) Dumbledore said that "Snape was indeed once a Death Eater, however he rejoined our side before Voldmort's downfall and turned spy for us at great personnel risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." It could be a part of the bluff, though.

Ah yes, thanks Starlight for clarifying that. The passage you refer to seems to imply that Snape wasn't pretending to be a Death Eater the first time as well. It was just a thought I was toying with, but this definitely shuts down that idea.

original post by drifting.shadow
he was a death eater once because he has the scar weather or not he is still a hardcore death eater nobody can say.

I know he has the Dark Mark, but what I had been wondering was if Snape had merely posed as a Death Eater during the first war. He could have taken the Dark Mark as part of the ruse in order to work as a spy for the good side. We know that there is a possibility of him pretending to be a Death Eater now for the sake of spying for the Order, but I had thought this might have been the case before as well, meaning that Snape never really was evil at all. Starlight has pointed out a passage that rules out this idea however.

AurorLongbottom
August 9th, 2004, 5:34 am
I gotta stick by what I've said, and if for no other reason I think Snape is good because Ron ALWAYS suspects Snape of being the bad guy responsible for their misery in every book, and in every book he is wrong. So, you got to keep a humorous part to Ron going by keeping Snape not the bad guy...if nothing else.

I like the idea someone mentioned of Snape seeming worse and worse in Book 6. I mean he has to save face, if he actually was decent to Harry, how do you think that would look to Draco? Draco would undoubtedly tell his father, who would tell Voldemort, and then look who is no longe an effective spy

Dana_Scully
August 9th, 2004, 10:48 am
Maybe Snape has no option but to be good now...isn't it implied by Voldemort himself in GoF that 'the one who will never return' was Snape? (perhaps not in so many words, but you get the idea)...unless there was another Death Eater we don't know about. Voldemort would never let him back in to the DE's, no matter what Snape told him...he would be exceptionally stupid to trust him again after everything Snape's done for Dumbledore over the past fifteen years. That guy's got screwed loyalties whichever way you look at it - yes, he's done a lot of good things, but it's always been with a grudge - maybe because he's afraid of the consequences if he doesn't. After all, he can be with Voldemort in spirit even if it's impossible for him to be with him in person (as a DE) anymore....

Maybe he doesn't have any REAL affiliations either way anymore....maybe he's just biding his time to see which side is the most likely to win.....

(Just throwing a few ideas into the melting point....personally, I love Snape....Particularly after the whole Worst Memory thing...;) )

Lord Nicholai
August 9th, 2004, 12:14 pm
we dont know if the one Voldemort said will not return and will die is snape or not.

And i disagree about his good deeds being done grudgingly. He protected the Stone above and beyond the call of duty quite willingly. And he didnt have to heck that Sirius was ok in OOTP

Dementor Dave
August 9th, 2004, 12:28 pm
And he didnt have to heck that Sirius was ok in OOTP

It's quite late here, but I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering what you mean by that? Clarify please?
Back on subject- Snpe is probably on the side of the Order. At this point anyway. One of the beautiful things about human nature is that it can change and evolve. He could turn (again) if his ambition drove him to it.
-Dementor Dave

dcv
August 9th, 2004, 12:28 pm
Though we haven't seen it, I assume that Snape did return to Voldemort, when he left for a while at the end of GoF. He pretty much had to have returned to LV, because otherwise he would not be an effective spy. How can you spy on someone when you aren't near them? (And if we say "magic" then why can't Dumbledore just do it himself, why does he need a former DE as a spy?)

One of the reasons I think Snape may turn out to be on LV's side in the end is because Ron thinks he is. Ron has a tendency to be right about these things (Ron the Seer!) and it just makes me wonder.

Lord Nicholai
August 9th, 2004, 12:52 pm
It's quite late here, but I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering what you mean by that? Clarify please?
Back on subject- Snpe is probably on the side of the Order. At this point anyway. One of the beutiful things about human nature is that it can change and evolve. He could turn (again) if his ambition drove him to it.
-Dementor Dave

sorry...its early here :p replace heck with check :blush:

I doubt Snape would go back to voldy

Dementor Dave
August 9th, 2004, 1:07 pm
Ah. thanks for the clear up. And a very valid point I might add. He didn't have to check on Sirius, his old schooldays tormentor. He also didn't have to quit Harry's occlumency lessons. :p One could argue the point either way. But I agree, if he's smart he won't fall back in rank with the Dark Lord.
-Dementor Dave

Lord Nicholai
August 9th, 2004, 1:18 pm
occlumency was different. He didnt choose to stop it so much as stop it out of anger. It doesnt show that hes evil or working for the dark lord...it shows hes human

muddu
August 9th, 2004, 1:43 pm
i think ther real reason dumbledore trusts snape is because voldemort probably murdered snapes parents {perhaps by mistake} and now dumbledore thinks that snape will not go to voldemorts side.

GodricHollow
August 9th, 2004, 2:08 pm
Snape was a DE, that's established, frankly because, unless it's something REALLY bad for Dumbledore's reputation I don't see him lying, the thing is, what is he doing now? All we know about what he's doing now is that he never stops for lunch and never more than five minutes.

Classical_Wizar
August 9th, 2004, 2:09 pm
I would say that Snape is on Dumbledore side beside the fact that Harry doesnt like him, just because you dont like someone or have a bad feeling doesnt mean they are mean. The world isnt made into those that we like and those that are pure evil.

filius
August 9th, 2004, 2:40 pm
I read a post in the DADA professor thread that made me think.
Everyone , including Dumbledore, knows that Snape desperately wants the DADA yteaching position. Dumbledore must have some reason not to give it to him. He could always save the trouble and let Snape take the job.
If Snape does get the job in book 6 then this doesn't matter. If he doesn't become the DADA teacher, then that will conform my suspicions. I'm not sure what to think now.

Dumbledore says he trusts Snape but isn't it possible that he could have made 2 mistakes?

Classical_Wizar
August 9th, 2004, 2:44 pm
It is possible but Lupin said that Snape was one of the rare potion makers that would make wolf bane, so I think Snape is better Potion teacher than he would be a Dark Arts. Just because we want something doesn’t mean that we will be great at it, and maybe Dumbledore is judging snape on that.

filius
August 9th, 2004, 2:49 pm
Yeah, but finding DADA teachers is a lot more harder thn finding a new potions teacher because everone thinks that the job is jinxed.
But you could be right about Snape being VERY good at potions but he wants the DADA job much more and that must tell us that he is very entusiastic about the dark arts.
Dumbledore probably wants him to stay away from it because he doesn't want Snape to go over board with the Dark Arts.

Classical_Wizar
August 9th, 2004, 2:51 pm
Could be maybe Snape wants to teach them the Dark Arts like Krum's school does and so Dumbledore doesnt want him to have the job, but i dont think that doesnt mean he doesnt trust him. Just that he knows a Hogwart's Dark Art postion would not be right for Snape if he wanted to go that way.

filius
August 9th, 2004, 2:58 pm
Could be maybe Snape wants to teach them the Dark Arts like Krum's school does and so Dumbledore doesnt want him to have the job, but i dont think that doesnt mean he doesnt trust him. Just that he knows a Hogwart's Dark Art postion would not be right for Snape if he wanted to go that way.
Thats what I just said in my post above yours :sigh: :D
When Snape first got into Hogwarts, he probably wanted the DADA job but Dumbledore thought it would be better if he stayed away from it because of his past? This makes sense to me.

The way Snape acts just doesn't seem very trustful to me. But if Dumbledore trusts him with the Order then I think he really is on our side. But he can make a choice to go back if he wants to. Dumbledore won't let Snape be the DADA teacher because he thinks this will provoke Snape to go back into the dark arts.
So basically, he good but is vurnerable to go back to being evil.
Like Dumbledore says: "Its they choices we make that shows us who we truly are."

Lord Nicholai
August 9th, 2004, 3:04 pm
Am i the only one who doesnt see the DADA position as some sort of risk? I dont think snape would be tempted by the dark arts if he were to get the position. Infact i think teaching students to fight AGAINST the dark arts would have the opposite effect.

I dont think keeping him from the DADA positon is a measure of his past deeds. I think Snape is just the wrong person for the job. Maybe the mysteries surrounding his past will show us why. We'll have to wait for 6 and 7 :p

Classical_Wizar
August 9th, 2004, 3:04 pm
I know I was agreeing with you, maybe Snape has more experience in the potion making field. Granted he knew more curses and had battle experience with muggles and wizards but maybe he didn’t have the field experience for monsters. Of course neither did Lockhart, but according to his books he did, which turned out to be a fake. You could be right that the dark arts might be too tempting for poor Snape.

cajitasazules
August 9th, 2004, 3:21 pm
Deep down I think Snape is good, but I feel he will test those feelings in the upcoming books. :(

Perhaps one of the reasons he desires to teach DADA is that he sees what is coming and knows he could train the students to protect themselves, but cannot get Dumbledore to see things the same way based on Snape's past actions.

If Snape does get DADA, I would think it would be 7th year and it either means he'll die or break the "curse" of the position. (Yes, I know that belongs in another thread.)

Dana_Scully
August 9th, 2004, 3:24 pm
I don't know...I think the reason that there IS all this debating about it is because JKR always meant his character to be ambiguous. Although, personally, I do think that Snape is behind Dumbledore, I can also see everyone else's points about why they think that he could go back to LV. I agree with Lord Nicholai that he didn't HAVE to check on Sirius though...but then, if he hadn't, and anything had happened to either the kids or Sirius and it later came out that Snape had been warned, then things would look pretty bad for him, wouldn't they? Just as they would have if he hadn't contributed his bit to protecting the stone. It's standard protect-your-own-backside stuff - always keep them guessing.

And yep, filius, I think it's entirely possible for Dumbledore to make mistakes - he's only human after all. Whether or not he's mistaken in Snape though is something that remains to be seen.

RINGO
August 9th, 2004, 7:13 pm
:huh: I have said this before,I feel that Snape is on the good side,but talking to a few mates the other day and one of them came up with this theory,so please dont shoot the messenger...Here goes...

What if Dumbledore asked Snape to take the mark,so that the order had a spy in LV's presence?????

Snape says yes,and that is that..... :huh:

Well,it made sense to me,I had never thought of that one....

cajitasazules
August 9th, 2004, 7:47 pm
:huh: I have said this before,I feel that Snape is on the good side,but talking to a few mates the other day and one of them came up with this theory,so please dont shoot the messenger...Here goes...

What if Dumbledore asked Snape to take the mark,so that the order had a spy in LV's presence?????

Snape says yes,and that is that..... :huh:

Well,it made sense to me,I had never thought of that one....

I'd thought the same thing and even started a fanfic about it, but abandoned it for another story about Snape.

Stayce
August 9th, 2004, 7:52 pm
snape hates Harry because he hated James but became indebted to him. I think that Snape is good but is just knowledgable and interested in the dark arts. It is my opinion that he was never really a Death Eater for personal reasons but for either research of parental pressure. I think he infiltrated to learn. The hating Harry and attitude just covers all this up for him. I think he may in turn have to help Harry in the end so he does not feel indebted to James anymore. He may even realize Harry is not that bad although he'll never admit it. LOL

Elf
August 9th, 2004, 11:17 pm
original post by RINGO
What if Dumbledore asked Snape to take the mark,so that the order had a spy in LV's presence?????

Snape says yes,and that is that.....

I suggested the same thing on the previous page in this thread and Starlight cleverly pointed out a passage in the book that seems to refute this idea.

original post by Starlight
Well, during Karkaroff's hearing, (Not exact quote as I don't have the book with me) Dumbledore said that "Snape was indeed once a Death Eater, however he rejoined our side before Voldmort's downfall and turned spy for us at great personnel risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." It could be a part of the bluff, though.

Starlight is right, it could be part of the bluff, but I tend to think now Dumbledore was stating a fact. Perhaps Snape's purpose is largely that he will represent those in the wizarding world for whom the decision of what side to be on is not so clear cut. For many wizards the choice is obvious, they know without question whether they are on the side of good or the side of evil. Snape is a complex character who has the potential to go either way and this is probably intentional on the part of the author for the purpose of showing someone in the process of deciding his morale stance.

I do however lean towards believing that Snape is reformed.

dcv
August 11th, 2004, 2:59 am
I don't think Snape is deciding his moral stance. Snape knows, it's just that we don't. But I agree that Jo wrote Snape to be an ambiguous character on purpose. He acts evil, but he also does good things, he used to serve the forces of darkness, but now claims to be reformed, despite the fact that he is still petty and spiteful and mean-spirited, at least at times. What a character! I like Lupin best, but I think I like picking Snape's fictional psyche apart the most.

Is is possible Dumbledore has not allowed Snape to teach DADA because it would broadcast to the world that Snape is no longer on the side of evil? If you are teaching others to defend against the dark arts, you can't be all that supportive of the dark arts themselves, can you? For Snape to be useful as a spy, he cannot broadcast his change of allegiance in such an obvious way.

RemusLupinFan
August 11th, 2004, 3:07 am
Is is possible Dumbledore has not allowed Snape to teach DADA because it would broadcast to the world that Snape is no longer on the side of evil? If you are teaching others to defend against the dark arts, you can't be all that supportive of the dark arts themselves, can you? For Snape to be useful as a spy, he cannot broadcast his change of allegiance in such an obvious way.I have often wondered about Dumbledore's motivations for denying Snape this position year after year. I believe this is a valid point: teaching kids in the ways of defending against dark magic would expose Snape too much as a supporter of Dumbledore. It is vital that Snape keep his true allegiances hidden lest anyone unsavory discover his true loyalties (which I still believe are to Dumbledore despite ambiguities in Snape's character). I also believe this is part of the reason why Snape favors Draco Malfoy so blatantly. It is mainly an act so that Snape will remain in the good graces of Draco's father, who is a known Death Eater and wouldn't hesitate to report to Voldemort the true nature of Snape's allegiance.

JDR237
August 11th, 2004, 3:45 am
There has to more of a reason for Dumbledore not to hire Snapa as DADA teacher than he' such a much better potions master. Look at Lockhart, if Snape would have had the job instead of him they could have found a potions master...and BECAUSE Dumbledore did not give the job to snape the MOM hired Umbridge....Nope folks, Dumbledore may trust Snape as far as him not being a death eater and he may trust him to teach potions, but there cannot be complete trust or he would have hired for DADA. A faithful employee that is trusted sooo much, he would have been given the job. And I've said it before, I think Snape jinxed the position so it comes open every year so he gets another chance. He may be on the Order's side now, but can he be trusted to not switch sides later.

Tonks04
August 11th, 2004, 3:51 am
I think that DUmbledore does trust snape but and he didnt give him the DADA job becuase he is such a good potions teacher, but then again, DUmbledoree would rather have someone from the minisrty choose for them who doesnt really teach anything, and examines the every move of the teachers and tries to get Dumbledore sacked, then something must be up.

JDR237
August 11th, 2004, 4:11 am
Tonks04, are you saying Dumbledore would rather had someone like Umbridge, than Snape, whom he trusts so much. Maconagal, Dumbledore, and even Hermoine knew that the ministry used that position to spy on the school and keep Dumbledore in check. I dont know, if Snape is so trustworthy, seems like an awful lot of trouble would have been avoided by hiring him.

atherella
August 11th, 2004, 6:02 am
I have often wondered about Dumbledore's motivations for denying Snape this position year after year. I believe this is a valid point: teaching kids in the ways of defending against dark magic would expose Snape too much as a supporter of Dumbledore. It is vital that Snape keep his true allegiances hidden lest anyone unsavory discover his true loyalties (which I still believe are to Dumbledore despite ambiguities in Snape's character). I also believe this is part of the reason why Snape favors Draco Malfoy so blatantly. It is mainly an act so that Snape will remain in the good graces of Draco's father, who is a known Death Eater and wouldn't hesitate to report to Voldemort the true nature of Snape's allegiance.

Here you go. :)

JL: Prof Snape has always wanted to be the defence against the dark arts
teacher. In book 5 he still doesn't get the job Why does Professor
Dumbledore not allow him to be the defence against the dark arts teacher?


JKR: <sighs> That is an excellent question and the reason is that, I have to
be careful what I say here, the reason is that to answer it fully would give
and awful lot away about the remaining two books but when Professor
Dumbledore took Professor Snape on to the staff and Professor Snape said I'd
like to teach defence against the darks arts please and Professor Dumbledore
felt that that might bring out the worst in Professor Snape

Starlight
August 11th, 2004, 9:24 am
^Oooh, I wonder what it would give away about the last two books?

Dana_Scully
August 11th, 2004, 11:39 am
atherella, do you have a website address for that chat? I don't think I've read that one. I can't believe I missed it because that is one of the questions that's been bugging me for ages!

I think there's an awful lot of highly relevant things that we've yet to learn about Snape, and I think that a lot of his motivations will probably stem from his upbringing or some other horrific experience in his past. I'm sure JKR introduced the memory of him being in his bedroom shooting down flies and stuff for a reason...I'm sure his protecting Harry and the other good things he's done have to be for better reasons than just the fact that James saved him once...

Ooh! I've just thought!...what if Snape has a very deep anger with Voldemort and the Dark Arts for some reason? It would have to be something big, I guess...maybe the murder of his wife or a child or his parents or something... If he's teaching Defence, maybe it WOULD bring out the worst in him - all that anger and bitterness...he might not be able to control it, it might make him biased in some way...while he's teaching potions, he's kept away from the trigger factor that could 'set him off', for want of a better term. It would also explain why Dumbledore trusts him completely - because he knows what Voldemort has done to Snape in the past.

Lady_Lupin
August 11th, 2004, 4:35 pm
Its hard to tell, i think he is on the "Good" side, but he can't help what he's become pernality wise beacuse of the Ex-Death Eater-ness.

I think he quit being a death eater, because of family related things. In a site, theres a quote by JKR it is as follows:

Q- Have any of the Hogwarts Professors had spouses?

JK Rowling: Good question, yes a few of them, but that information is sort of restricted -- you'll find out why.

And then of course there is the possibility that Snape is actually good......well deep deeeeeep down anyway.

Maybe he just realised that what the Death Eaters where doing was wrong?

atherella
August 11th, 2004, 4:36 pm
I'll dig out the link right now, Dana_Scully.


Ahhh, here it is. :)

Link to interview (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2003/0626-alberthall-fry.htm)

Dana_Scully
August 11th, 2004, 8:44 pm
Ooh...thanks atherella...that cleared up quite a few things for me actually. I thought the bit where she said that we shouldn't feel THAT sorry for Snape was particularly interesting - that seems to me as though Snape isn't quite everything that Dumbledore believes (and kind of hopes) he is. But Lady Lupin's post got me thinking too, 'cos I hadn't read that transcript before either. Together, both comments do seem to indicate that there is something quite personal and traumatic in Snape's past that has affected him far more deeply than even Dumbledore knows and it has to be something much bigger than just an immature prank.....maybe Snape is just biding his time, doing what he can, hoping that eventually he'll get his own shot at LV.

Do you think that maybe he's jealous of Voldemort's power for some reason? Maybe he sought it so that he could get revenge on all those people who ridiculed him in school and made him feel small, but he realised at some point that he had bitten off far more than he could chew, got scared, and went to Dumbledore for help? Perhaps that's why he's so friendly with Malfoy still too....Perhaps if Malfoy and Snape had a chance, they would like to inherit Voldemort's powers for themselves...an uprising from within, you know?

Just a thought.....

Starlight
August 12th, 2004, 11:48 am
I thought the bit where she said that we shouldn't feel THAT sorry for Snape was particularly interesting

Really sorry to nitpick, but in case anyone is reading this instead of the transcript, she actually says to not think him too nice, which is slightly different from not feeling sorry for him. Again, sorry to nitpick. Feel free to throw a jar of cockroaches in my general direction. :)

But Lady Lupin's post got me thinking too, 'cos I hadn't read that transcript before either. Together, both comments do seem to indicate that there is something quite personal and traumatic in Snape's past that has affected him far more deeply than even Dumbledore knows and it has to be something much bigger than just an immature prank.....maybe Snape is just biding his time, doing what he can, hoping that eventually he'll get his own shot at LV.

Yes, I think along those same lines too, but maybe DD does know? In the fight between DD and V, DD says "We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom." Hmm. If Voldemort did kill someone Snape cared about and it was that which finally pushed Snape into being the angry, bitter, resentful man he is now, maybe that's what DD was refering to?

Dana_Scully
August 12th, 2004, 7:41 pm
Oh, it's okay, Starlight! No worries, mate....I was kind of paraphrasing 'cos my computer starts getting the jitters if I try and open 2 windows at once!!

But the point was essentially there anyway, I suppose.....

Anyway, yeah, I suppose DD must know, 'cos that's how Snape managed to convince him that he really had gone back over to the good side. I thought that quote that you used, Starlight, was interesting and I always thought that it was kind of strange...there's a lot more history between Voldemort and DD that we don't know about yet too. I love the way DD cuts him down instantly by calling him 'Tom'...instantly belittles him by taking away all the pomp and circumstance that the title 'Lord Voldemort' seems to inspire....

But yeah, Starlight, that's definitely possible...DD would have seen first hand the destruction that grief can do because of the effect it's had on Snape...it would be really sad though if Snape was never able to let go of the past, wouldn't it?

Poor guy!! There has to be some thread of hope!! Please, JK!!!!

amirab
August 12th, 2004, 9:31 pm
i think he is on his own side

Lord Nicholai
August 12th, 2004, 10:16 pm
which side would "his own side" lie on then?

amirab
August 13th, 2004, 1:11 am
I don't know, if you where talking to me, Lord Nicholai.

Mione Weasley
August 13th, 2004, 3:03 am
:huh: I have said this before,I feel that Snape is on the good side,but talking to a few mates the other day and one of them came up with this theory,so please dont shoot the messenger...Here goes...

What if Dumbledore asked Snape to take the mark,so that the order had a spy in LV's presence?????

Snape says yes,and that is that..... :huh:

Well,it made sense to me,I had never thought of that one....

Well, that seems very possible indeed. When i started to read this thread this thought did come into my head. But, i don´t know, when we go in Snape´s worse memory and by what Sirius said, Snape had an inclination to the dark arts since he was very young. I don´t see why he wouldn´t be a death eater, since most of his friends were. But who knows really, maybe it was all a big plan. It would be very wise to have a spy in Voldemort´s side, and who better to do it then a boy who always seemed to like the dark arts?? He would be the perfect alibi, nobody (Voldemort or the other DE) would be suspicious. And that would explain why he is still alive, and in such good terms with Lucius Malfoy. Hummm...i´m starting to like this idea more and more...

feshnie
August 13th, 2004, 5:15 am
Well, I haven't really read much of the last thread, but I have always been under the impression that as evil as Snape can be at times, he is on the good side. In the first book he could have helped Quirrell bring Voldemort back, but instead he helped save Harry's life. I know Snape is a spy for the Order, and I feel like if he was a double spy (helping Voldemort), Voldemort would have known the location of Grimwauld's Place, or at least the area, and been able to attack the members of the Order by now. Even though Snape seems to have a grudge against Harry, I believe Snape will sacrifice himself, or do something to help Harry finish Voldemort.

Yes, yes, yes, YES!! I agree. I agree with GrangerExpress. Snape is good not bad. I agree with those who think Snape is good eventhough he has a grudge on Harry and the Marauders.

Elf
August 13th, 2004, 7:09 am
original post by dcv
I don't think Snape is deciding his moral stance. Snape knows, it's just that we don't. But I agree that Jo wrote Snape to be an ambiguous character on purpose.

You know what? After I read my post again I decided that I didn't even really agree with how I worded it! So I will clarify what I think I confused in that particular post...

I agree that Snape is well aware of what side he is on now, however what we as the readers don't know is how exactly he came to that conclusion. What changed his mind? Obviously during the first war he went through the process of deciding his moral stance and perhaps what I was getting at in my first post is that JKR will share this process with us through some back history. In this way, she will illustrate how for some wizards the issue of what side to be on isn't necessarily cut and dried.

There, I think that perhaps makes more sense, at least to myself. :)

atherella
August 13th, 2004, 5:42 pm
I just posted this quote in a different thread, but it certainly ties into Snape, and might very well be a hint or a clue as to why Snape has chosen whichever side he did....

One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.

JKR was slightly stunned when asked if Snape would ever fall in love. She answers about the future "who would want to love him", but she could have been stunned because at one point Snape was in love with somebody. I believe it was Machiavelli who posted the thought that perhaps Snape had a wife killed by LV, and this was the reason that he switched to the good side. (I don't know if Mach. was the first to post this idea, but it's the one I recall reading). It seems like love somehow ties into Snape and probably at least partially why he acts so nasty.

C8H10N4O2
August 13th, 2004, 5:53 pm
I think Snape is only out for himself, but I think he is on the Good side as he does disagree with DD on a number of occaisions, and is not ungent and condescending like Malfoy was to Fudge. I think it means he is sincere and has legitimate complaints -- shallow though they may be. Besides, if he is not, what would that do to the Snape/Hermione shippers? ;)

Mione Weasley
August 14th, 2004, 3:14 am
Maybe it has something to do with that spouses information she said it was restricted. She did say that we would find out why...

Lady_Lupin
August 15th, 2004, 3:13 am
I just recently finished re-reading book 4, and I caught something that might hold some importance, or not either way I want to bring it to people's attention.

In Dumbledore's office (After Harry falls asleep in Divinations, and has that dream about V. and Wormtail, then wakes up on the floor screaming and clutching his scar) Harry asks Dumbledore about Snape, and how via pensieve peeking,Harry discovers that he was accused but later cleared of charges of being a Death eater because Dumbledore vouched for him claiming he was a spy, having backed out of V's leagues before his fall. Dumbledore didn't tell Harry why he backed out, only that those where matters between himself and Snape only.

Now, does this mean something? Perhaps suspicions that Snape backed out after something traumatic and family related is true, or is it something more sinister?

For some reason, James Potter and Severus Snape's childhood feud keeps coming back to mind, maybe the reason Snape backed out lies within his feuds? Possibly (now this is a long shot....in the dark, blindfolded with both hands tied behind my back...) the feud was based entirely upon Snape secretly envying James and his popluarity, and maybe he even....dare I say it?......loved Lily (Gasp!) and was jealous of James because he thought that she favoured him, after he had become a Death Eater maybe he learned of the Death Warrant out on the Potters, and backed out because he couldn't bear the thought of being asociated with the death of the women he secretly loved....(Duh Duh Duuuuuuuuuh)

Now this is just me clinging to the last shread of hope that Snape is actually good deep deep down beneath the greasy haired exterior, combined with wild guesses that probably don't hold a chance in the firey pit that some call heck (censored for those virgin eyes out there) But then, there is always the huge possibilty that I am completely and utterly wrong in every aspect of my crazy lunatic-ward worthy theory you see here before you.........

well, for a crazy lunatic-ward worthy theory made by a crazy lunatic-ward theorist, what more would you expect?

Azalea
August 15th, 2004, 10:47 pm
Possibly (now this is a long shot....in the dark, blindfolded with both hands tied behind my back...) the feud was based entirely upon Snape secretly envying James and his popluarity, and maybe he even....dare I say it?......loved Lily (Gasp!) and was jealous of James because he thought that she favoured him, after he had become a Death Eater maybe he learned of the Death Warrant out on the Potters, and backed out because he couldn't bear the thought of being asociated with the death of the women he secretly loved....(Duh Duh Duuuuuuuuuh)

This may just be a wording choice thing, but I just have to comment on it because I have seen it several other places. I'm going to quote someone on another board, but it is a quote I've heard before elsewhere: The person being bullied doesn't want to BE the bully, he wants to kick the bully's you-know-what. You say he is envious of James; I heartily disagree. He hates James because of who James is (understanding of course that the choices we make, ie, our actions, are what make us who we are). His hatred demonstrates to me that he doesn't wish to be like James (aside from perhaps having similar flying skills :) ), in fact he wishes James wasn't like James.

I don't discount the Snape/ Lily thing altogether, but I personally don't think it was the case. I may be proven wrong when the next books come out, but my hunch is that this wasn't a factor.

Now this is just me clinging to the last shread of hope that Snape is actually good deep deep down beneath the greasy haired exterior, combined with wild guesses that probably don't hold a chance in the firey pit that some call heck (censored for those virgin eyes out there)


Well, I happen to be one who already thinks that Snape is indeed on the side of good, shown in his actions in the previous books and by the word of Dumbledore. I just think he has a nasty personality, which can be justified but not excused.

In reference to the quote by JKR given a few posts above (Snape falling in love and then him having redeeming qualities): As much as I'd love to see Snape end up with a good woman who will finally afford him some of the tenderness and affection he's been missing from others his whole life (one assumes), JKR's response just doesn't point that way.

Her response to the second comment, however, I think has been widely misinterpreted, which I think was her plan. I think he will indeed have some kind of redemption, but she doesn't want to give away the ending, and wishes Snape to remain an ambiguous character, and so worded her response that way. She "shudders" because the reader has hit the nail on the head, not because he is mistaken. I have my own theories about his possible redemption in terms of his and Harry's relationship, which, sadly, I don't have time to share at the moment.

SyirenSlytherin
August 16th, 2004, 1:15 am
the whole 'who would want snape in love with them' line keeps bugging me. she didn't say 'who would love snape' so it makes me wonder what his actions would be or were towards someone he loved.

but i still believe snape is on the side of good. he got mixed up with the DE's because he was very bitter and hateful at the time and probably did some horrible things but one day simply had an epiphany. sounds lame but it happens, he just realised, as things were escallating within the DE's, that he didn't agree with what he was doing and probably developed a strong sense of self loathing for allowing himself to indulge his hatred so far. and that's when he turned back. i'd really like to see that he changed sides because he saw what he was doing was wrong and not because someone he cared about was effected.

dcv
August 16th, 2004, 1:41 pm
i'd really like to see that he changed sides because he saw what he was doing was wrong and not because someone he cared about was effected.

I don't think these two issues are mutually exclusive. Maybe someone he cared about was affected: Lily, perhaps, when she had to go into hiding in fear of LV's attack on Harry. Maybe someone else. What's important is it's entirely possible that when the evil he was doing (or helping to do) hit close to home, it helped him see the error of his ways. People tend to de-humanize the people they are opposed to in war, so he may not have recognized that the evil he was doing was against other human beings, and thus he didn't consider the effects of his actions. Once bad things happened to people close to him, he realized that what he was doing all along had rippling effects to numerous people - thinking, feeling people - and took a turn for the good.

At least, I hope so. I'm not sold on which side Snape is on, but if he turned to good for once and all I'm sure that's how it happened. Someone with deep seeded beliefs will not change them lightly, and he clearly had strong beliefs about muggle-borns in the pensieve scene.

atherella
August 16th, 2004, 5:55 pm
the whole 'who would want snape in love with them' line keeps bugging me. she didn't say 'who would love snape' so it makes me wonder what his actions would be or were towards someone he loved.

I think JKR in that quote means that "who would want to love Snape" with the NOW implied. Meaning, who would want to love him with the way he acts now. We really do not know much about how he used to act. We know that he came to school knowing more curses than a 7th year, we saw the scene in the pensieve, but I don't think that is enough to judge what type of person Snape was back as a student. I think that at one point, Snape WAS in love with someone, whether it was a returned and mutual love, I have no idea. Probably. I really do believe that this "love" is what was the deciding factor in his changing to the good side. Unfortunately for all the Snape lovers, I don't think he'll ever find a love again in this series.

Starlight
August 17th, 2004, 11:37 am
^ Agreed. JKR's comment could mean Snape now, but we don't know what he used to be like. He could be the way he is now because he loved and lost.

My own personal theory was that it was someone related to Dumbledore. This is completly unfounded, of course, except for possibly the DD quote someone mentioned further back. When he says that it's "a matter between Snape and myself." Maybe because it's a family matter?

Whoever it was though, I don't think it was Lily. It's just too... expected. Especially for JKR.

koetje
August 17th, 2004, 1:36 pm
Don't think that snape is able to love someone like we do, because he doesn't love himself
I think he hates himself for being a formal deatheater. That's why he is working for the order now tring to make his mistakes better. But he can't not before he forgives himself

Lady_Lupin
August 17th, 2004, 9:37 pm
Well, because my theory was completely shot down, stepped on and thrown out I have concocted a new one.

Snape is on his own side, personal matters made him see the overwhelming wrong asociated with the Death Eaters, what personal matters are yet unknown. He's kind of on the Order's side but not completely, why exactly is known to no one but Jk.

We will all come up with several different ideas, but we'll never know untill Jk desides we should know. But trying to determine things ahead of time is fun though......

Snape was a spy for Dumbledore and the Order, maybe he has become a spy again? Maybe not.

dcv
August 18th, 2004, 1:30 am
koetje, I like your idea that Snape cannot love because he does not love himself. In the New Testament, loving yourself and loving others are linked; we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Not trying to preach here, just using it as a philosophical pointer. A person cannot love others unless and until he does love himself. If he despises himself, he is using all of his being on his own self-hatred, and there is nothing left to use to love others.

So does this mean that if Snape ever feels he has attoned for his wrongs, that he'll become a soft-hearted teddybear of a guy? I doubt it. But it may mean that he's able to open up to others and show some semblence of compassion, which makes it easier for others to love him as well.

OptimisticGirl
August 18th, 2004, 2:24 am
I think that Snape was on the veil side, but he turned his back on evil and went onto the side of good. But I think that JK Rowling is making us think that Snape might go back to the dark side. But in reality, nothing's gonna happen. Here's a theory: Snape dated Harry's mom, but then Lilly broke up with him and ended up marrying James. That would explain why he hates Harry.

koetje
August 18th, 2004, 9:52 am
not why he called lily a mudblood

DarkThunder
August 18th, 2004, 9:57 am
koetje, I like your idea that Snape cannot love because he does not love himself. In the New Testament, loving yourself and loving others are linked; we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Not trying to preach here, just using it as a philosophical pointer. A person cannot love others unless and until he does love himself.

You dont need to believe in that sort of thing to see it, actually. Even logically, someone who doesnt love themself cant love others very well. Its difficult to explain why. I loathe myself, and I dont really love anyone else. I like others, but not love. So it doesnt explain why Snape cant just LIKE others, he seems to hate everyone. Oh, then again he likes Malfoy doesnt he...

Classical_Wizar
August 18th, 2004, 10:04 am
Maybe he just doesn’t like Gryffindor? They haven’t been the nicest people to him, James and the gang, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Lily and perhaps her friends, Harry and the gang. We haven’t really seen his interaction with others than Slytherin and Gryffindor. Maybe he is actually kind to the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaw not saying that he is but who knows. Also since he is a spy for the Order make he isn’t allowing himself to be nice to anyone, Dumbledore says he could trust Snape perhaps Snape also knew that the Dark Lord would return and so has been putting an act for the last fourteen years of teaching as a bitter man. Who knows how Snape is at home.

edit: order make should = order maybe
oops sorry about that.

OptimisticGirl
August 18th, 2004, 11:27 am
Maybe he just doesn’t like Gryffindor? They haven’t been the nicest people to him, James and the gang, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Lily and perhaps her friends, Harry and the gang. We haven’t really seen his interaction with others than Slytherin and Gryffindor. Maybe he is actually kind to the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaw not saying that he is but who knows. Also since he is a spy for the Order make he isn’t allowing himself to be nice to anyone, Dumbledore says he could trust Snape perhaps Snape also knew that the Dark Lord would return and so has been putting an act for the last fourteen years of teaching as a bitter man. Who knows how Snape is at home.

True. You DO have a point.

koetje
August 19th, 2004, 8:52 am
Now why would he put up this act if he told the whole witchgamott the treud of being a spy.

cajitasazules
August 19th, 2004, 3:59 pm
Maybe some actions of Snape's past and present make will/do make us question why anyone would love him, but could be lost love have been one of the catalysts for pushing him over to the Dark Side, but then back again. What if he was in love with a non-pureblood, rejected them/they discovered his dark tendencies, they were killed, he saw the light and went over the light?

snakeshark
August 19th, 2004, 5:44 pm
Version 1 of this thread is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=13243).


Please continue your discussion here, thanks!
Like Dumbles, Snape has had ample opportunity to kill Harry. If he had intended to do such a thing, Harry would already be dead.

Tane
September 5th, 2004, 10:31 pm
Snape might appear to double cross Harry and Dumbledore in book 6 only to turn suddenly against Voldemort in the final battle and take Harry's side, the side he has alwaus been on. Either that or Snape might die by the end of book 6 due to Voldemort finding out that he is actually spying on him.

Lorraine D
September 5th, 2004, 11:20 pm
Snape serves himself. He will overcome the Marauders... (and the world)...

Trisha
October 2nd, 2004, 6:27 am
mrsronweasley: hmm i think snape is on the good side.. but (now this is really random.. no laughing or teasing) i think that snape is so suspicious of other ppl.. and he has proven to be right (esp in the case of professor quirrell in hp1) that he suspects harry to turn out to be a trader to the good side.

I mean, I can't see that happening, that after all this JKR makes Harry out to be the bad one.. but I think that Snape must feel he has some sort of reason for hating harry so much.. right?

What a theory! We've always been led to believe that Snape hates Harry Potter because of what the Marauders did to him as a teenager, especially James Potter.
But what if... stick with me now... what if Snape helped to create some sort of protective spell for Lord Thingy that included a loophole... which Harry fits into via the Prophesy? Maybe a potion that... I dunno... split Voltemort's powers in two in the event of his defeat? And the person who carries his essence... might have more in common with Lord V. than just extraordinary powers, even for a wizard!
So... wow!... Snape may have better reasons than most to suspect Harry of doing a 180 and betraying the Order at some point... if part of his strength as a wizard is in fact tainted by Voltemort!

i_like_dat
October 2nd, 2004, 6:46 am
He's definitly on our side...Dumbledore says so, so so do I! :p

Trisha
October 2nd, 2004, 7:25 am
RemusLupinFan: I have often wondered about Dumbledore's motivations for denying Snape this position year after year [Defense Against the Dark Arts professor.] I believe this is a valid point: teaching kids in the ways of defending against dark magic would expose Snape too much as a supporter of Dumbledore. It is vital that Snape keep his true allegiances hidden lest anyone unsavory discover his true loyalties (which I still believe are to Dumbledore despite ambiguities in Snape's character). I also believe this is part of the reason why Snape favors Draco Malfoy so blatantly. It is mainly an act so that Snape will remain in the good graces of Draco's father, who is a known Death Eater and wouldn't hesitate to report to Voldemort the true nature of Snape's allegiance.

One place Severus was not found in OofP was at the shoot-out at the Ministry of Magic. Lucius Malfoy kindly named all the Death Eaters when dividing them up to search for Harry and the Prophesy, but Snape was not mentioned by anyone.
So it will be interesting to see how the D.E.s and Lord V. behave now that Fudge and Co. have admitted that Voltemort is back. Is Snape still Malfoy's lapdog? Or is the former Death Eater in the kennel permanently?

Starlight
October 2nd, 2004, 11:56 am
mrsronweasley: hmm i think snape is on the good side.. but (now this is really random.. no laughing or teasing) i think that snape is so suspicious of other ppl.. and he has proven to be right (esp in the case of professor quirrell in hp1) that he suspects harry to turn out to be a trader to the good side.

I mean, I can't see that happening, that after all this JKR makes Harry out to be the bad one.. but I think that Snape must feel he has some sort of reason for hating harry so much.. right?

What a theory! We've always been led to believe that Snape hates Harry Potter because of what the Marauders did to him as a teenager, especially James Potter.
But what if... stick with me now... what if Snape helped to create some sort of protective spell for Lord Thingy that included a loophole... which Harry fits into via the Prophesy? Maybe a potion that... I dunno... split Voltemort's powers in two in the event of his defeat? And the person who carries his essence... might have more in common with Lord V. than just extraordinary powers, even for a wizard!
So... wow!... Snape may have better reasons than most to suspect Harry of doing a 180 and betraying the Order at some point... if part of his strength as a wizard is in fact tainted by Voltemort!

:agree: This is something I thought myself, too. I am 70% sure we will learn of another reason (or maybe the real reason) why Snape hates Harry. The only person who's ever even suggested that Snape hates Harry because of James was VoldeQuirrel. And I'm not sure I entirely trust his info on the subject, especially as DD didn't even confirm it (he only confirmed that Snape and James hated eachother, not that that was the reason for Snape hating Harry).

And the other thing which bugs me - Hagrid's reaction. When Harry told him that Snape seemed to really hate him, Hagrid said "Rubbish! Why should he?" but avoided eye contact then changed the subject. Why not just say that Snape disliked Harry's father? I suppose this could be the first hint that James bullied Snape (something that Hagrid defiantly would not tell Harry). He may have even been the first on the scene at the Willow incident. But - I dunno. It just seems like DD and Hagrid have both carefully sidestepped this subject.

Snidget66
October 3rd, 2004, 6:14 pm
Snape was a deatheater.DD states in the GoF, that he came back to the good side before LV's fall.DD fully trusts Snape. Harry and Ron are always saying that where's the proof that he did come back to the good side, and hermione replies DD trusts Snape and id we can't trust DD who can we trust.I, agree with hermione.I mean, DD wouldn't risk everything if Snape really was still a deatheater. But I also agree with Harry and ron when they say that he never came back to the good side.

In the OotP, Snape went on secret missions bringing back reports on how it went.Maybe Snape was spying on LV for DD. And when Harry was having Occlumency lessons, Snape says, "It is not your job to find out what the dark lord is planning Potter" to which Harry replies, "No that's your job isn't ti?". Snape smiles devilishly and replies, "Yes Potter, that is my job."

I think DD trusts Snape because in the GoF (pensive), Snape probably told DD what LV's plans were and that's why DD told the Potters to go into hiding and get a secret-keeper. Ever since then Snape's been spying on LV. Snape may be cruel and mean but at least he's not evil.

HGHPRW637
October 5th, 2004, 12:56 am
I always had this theory that Snape and Lily were linked romantically and, Snape was really Harry's father but then my friend pointed out to me...well..yelled at me... the tiny fact that I had forgoten that Harry looks exactly like James. But I really think that Snape has more of a reason for acting the way he does to Harry other than "Your dad was mean to me." because, look how many times Snape has saved Harry from danger, especially in PoA.

leopardanimagus
October 5th, 2004, 8:33 pm
I wonder sometimes if when DD says 'I trust Snape' he means that he trusts snape to be duplicitous (right word?). I mean maybe DD knows Snape is a double agent, and feels he maybe useful to have around so lets him stay, but doesn't let him know anything REALLY important? Like the prophecy?

crumseekerlynch
October 23rd, 2004, 4:32 am
Dumbledores!

Paintball
October 25th, 2004, 7:13 pm
I like the theory of a double agent. My knowledge of how double agents work is limited to spy novels. Generally a lot of people on each side believe he is a spy for their side, but only the very top position on each side know he is a double agent. Each person on the top feeds information to the other side that appears to be secret, but doesn't mind or they want the other side to find out. Usually in spy novels the side the agent really works for has the double agent appear to get caught and has him run to the other side for protection becoming only a spy for their side. Everyone reading the spy novel thinks he was working for the side he runs to until the end of the novel. So if Snape is accused of being a spy for LV early in Book 7 or at the end of book 6 and runs to join LV, don't assume he was really working for LV, he could still have been a double agent.

FoxyDoxy
October 25th, 2004, 7:14 pm
We don't really know enough about him yet to decide.

Paintball
October 25th, 2004, 8:11 pm
We don't really know enough about him yet to decide.

I believe he is really loyal to Dumbledore. Here is how I believe he became a double agent:

(1) The young Snape makes a mistake and decides to join LV

(2) He changes his mind, but knows if he leaves LV he will be Killed

(3) Snape turns to Dumbledore for help

(4) Dumbledore devises the double agent plan

(5) Dumbledore teaches the young Snape Occlumency in a crash course

(6) Dumbledore then sends Snape to LV to tell him he has a plan. The plan would be for him to go to Dumbledore and ask for protection and agree to act as a double spy and suggest he be given a teaching job at Hogwarts

(7) Dumbledore appears to fall for the plan and gives Snape a job.

(7) LV has Snape take the teaching job and become a double agent for him


Of couse the reverse could be true. We need to know who taught Snape Occlumency. If it was LV then the reverse would be true. I just don't see Dumbledore falling for this like I see LV falling for it.

Snuffels
October 25th, 2004, 8:50 pm
He must be a double agent because if he's acting against somebody he need to explain it to the other, I think we know in the end on which site he is. So we can't no now every thing is posible. I Think however that he 's evil because Harry said so many times that they are always saying that about him so I think he's evil because that's the last think he will expect. I also think that ron dies because he founds out that snape is evil and then harry would not believe him, but snape murders him because he fears that he will tell dumbeldore

jaconner
October 25th, 2004, 9:07 pm
I believe DD uses snape as a tool to keep control and to divert the more evil side of things. Snape has many times changed the mind of some of the more evil characters.
Snape is defintly on DDs side.

mynameisrene
November 14th, 2004, 12:15 am
Somehow, I think that Snape is on the "good" side. He seems genuinely concerned, for example, when Crouch is found out in book 4, and Dumbledore sends him on an errand.

cougprincess
November 15th, 2004, 3:26 am
At the end of book 4, Voldie says "one of our number I fear has left us forever - he will be killed" (or something to that effect)...this doesn't sound like Voldie knew Snape was a spy - otherwise he would surely have said something about him 'betraying' him. We know that Snape is an excellent Occlumence, and can peform legilimancy too...but could he really outwit Voldie?

Personally, I think this statement refers to Karkaroff. It seems like people are reading too much into whose side Snape is on. Dumbledore trusts him. Is there really any reason to question him?

UselessCharmMaster
November 23rd, 2004, 7:33 pm
I believe he is on the good side. Just because it's good to see you can be a good guy and an awful guy in one.

Haynesworth
January 19th, 2005, 1:35 am
I think Snape is in a position where both Dumbledore and Voldemort know he is corresponding with the other side, but both think they are the ones actually getting the info, while the other is getting false or useless info. They have to both know he's the/a spy. I mean, Voldemort isn't stupid, he knows Snape must talk to Dumbledore, being a teacher at Hogwarts and all. Snape seems like he's on DD's side, and can use occlumency to his advantage against Voldemort.

Because of this situation I'm assuming Snape is in, it makes sense that the OotP and the Death Eaters both know or think he's part of their organization, both believing he is the spy. That is how Snape could be at great personal risk, because being exposed to both sides means that if the side he's not on finds out they will all go after him. Now, believing current knowledge makes me think that Snape is truly on the good side. So, in the first war, if he switched to Dumbledore's side, the DEs must know about him and think he's spying on DD. Now in the second war, the must think he's been biding his time, staying close to DD so he can resume his position if and when Voldemort returns. Now that he's returned, the only way Snape can spy on him is if Voldemort thinks he's still working for him, and the only way Voldemort would think that is if he believed Snape never truly switched to DD's side.

Therefore, Snape would be at great personal risk by having Voldemort think Snape's really working for him when he's not. Because if he found out, Snape would be killed. This is where Occlumency is so important for Snape.

So basically, I don't think Snape is openly in support of Dumbledore, because if he was, he wouldn't be able to spy on Voldemort. That's how he's at "great personal risk"

jessefan
January 19th, 2005, 1:56 am
That makes sense. Lucius Malfoy likes Snape, he's always speaking well of him to Draco. He must think Snape never switched sides, but was just hiding like he was. Or maybe, he's just acting like that so it doesn't become too obvious that he's a Death Eater - although Snape already knows, so I don't know.

Denton56
January 19th, 2005, 2:11 am
Makes sense to me. I am very curious why he did switch. I'm so happy that HBP will tell us why.

On a related topic, why was Voldemort so easy to let Snape back in to the Death Eaters after: A. Snape already betrayed him once and B: Snape didn't come to Voldemort after the third task.

We all know Voldemort isn't exactly kind to any failure or weakness. He insulted Wormtail after it was him that brought him back to life? Why does he believe Snape so much.

Haynesworth
January 19th, 2005, 2:17 am
Makes sense to me. I am very curious why he did switch. I'm so happy that HBP will tell us why.

On a related topic, why was Voldemort so easy to let Snape back in to the Death Eaters after: A. Snape already betrayed him once and B: Snape didn't come to Voldemort after the third task.

We all know Voldemort isn't exactly kind to any failure or weakness. He insulted Wormtail after it was him that brought him back to life? Why does he believe Snape so much.

Yeah, but I think he may have been there at the graveyard. That of course is a whole different topic, but if he didn't show then he wouldn't be able to work with Voldemort in order to relay info to the OotP, unless he like hung out on a cliff and watched their operations. No, that's why I think he's at "personal risk", because Voldemort doesn't know yet that Snape is truly on Dumbledore's side, and he thinks Snape is spying on DD. If Voldemort found Snape out, he would be killed immediately. That's a pretty big risk right there.

Pegasus
January 19th, 2005, 2:22 am
I have come up with two explanations of the graveyard: Either that Snape was, in fact, there, or that Voldemort knew he couldn't leave because then Dumbledore would be suspicious.

Allemande
January 19th, 2005, 3:32 am
Makes sense to me. I am very curious why he did switch. I'm so happy that HBP will tell us why.

On a related topic, why was Voldemort so easy to let Snape back in to the Death Eaters after: A. Snape already betrayed him once and B: Snape didn't come to Voldemort after the third task.

We all know Voldemort isn't exactly kind to any failure or weakness. He insulted Wormtail after it was him that brought him back to life? Why does he believe Snape so much.

I think Voldemort welcomed Snape back so easily because he obviously still believes Snape works for him and is spying for Voldemort; having someone close to Dumbledore is a HUGE advantage for Voldemort, because he still believes Snape is working against Dumbledore....if he were to not let him back in easily, he would lose his only contact with finding out what Dumbledore is up to

Pegasus
January 19th, 2005, 4:50 am
I wonder if Voldemort knows Snape is a legilimens? Probably not, or he'd be in big trouble...but then, if Voldemort is a legilimens, he's got to recognize it, doesn't he? Maybe everyone's lying to everyone in Vold's circle, no one trusts anyone, and that's just the way it is...

hobbitseeker
January 19th, 2005, 5:05 am
I wonder if Voldemort knows Snape is a legilimens? Probably not, or he'd be in big trouble...but then, if Voldemort is a legilimens, he's got to recognize it, doesn't he? Maybe everyone's lying to everyone in Vold's circle, no one trusts anyone, and that's just the way it is...

Can legilimens somehow detect other legilimens? I can't remember that from OotP, and I don't have my book in front of me.

I tend to agree with the theory that Voldemort does not know Snape has become a spy. If he had had any suspicions, don't you think he would have just killed or tortured/used Veritaserum against Snape to find out the truth? Voldy doesn't seem to be the forgiving type.

As a side thought, I wonder if there is a potion that can help you lie undetected (for those who don't have legilimency skills)...

Pegasus
January 19th, 2005, 5:05 am
Kind of like a reverse veritaserum? Hmm...

hobbitseeker
January 19th, 2005, 5:07 am
Yes, exactly. Or more like an Anti-Veritaserum, or "Occlumency Potion" (these could be two different things...

FootbagFanatic09
January 19th, 2005, 5:20 am
I don't like snape at all but if Dumbledore trusts him I trust him. I really do think he can be trusted.