What Harry owes Snape

Dumbledore says in PoA that it forms a very powerful bond when someone saves someone else's life. Though he was speaking of Peter Pettigrew's debt to Harry, there's another matter which is quietly avoided...

Harry's debt to Snape.

Snape definitely saved Harry's life in Book 1. (No waffling or whining or excuses, now--it's a fact accepted by Harry himself.)

Snape saved Harry's life in CoS indirectly, as acknowledged by Harry himself--after saving himself from Lockhart with the Expelliarmus spell, he said, "You should never have let Snape teach us that one."

In PoA, Snape TRIED to help Harry several times--by stopping him from going to Hogsmeade and by 'rescuing' him from Sirius Black. Don't you think he deserves some credit at least for being willing to risk death saving Harry from a mass muderer and werewolf? (even if he was mistaken.) Maybe someone else can come up with some way in which Snape was actually of any real use in PoA....

In GoF, at the height of the Harry vs Snape war, Snape was indirectly useful again--the gillyweed which Harry required for the second task was stolen from Snape.

Do you think Harry will ever come to feel any gratitude or sense of obligation for these things? Do you think it will happen before or after Snape is killed? Do you think the war between Harry and Snape will escalate further, or cool down now that they have a common enemy to fight?

well, i dont think u can really give snape credit for saving harry's life cuz harry stole something from him...but yeah, i believe if snape was in trouble, and harry could help, he would, and he would probably feel a lil obligated to. whether or not he will have the chance, i dont know

I think that bottom mind, Harry does acknowledge all that Snape has done. Because HE has done a lot and unnoticed. I was unsure about that one, but what convinced me was that in PoA, Snape tried to let them know that Lupin was a werewolf. Maybe he thought that Lupin was in Sirius's side and that was dangerous to Harry. For revenge or for whatever he did it, he did let them know about Lupin.
Besides he always seems to be there watching what Harry is doing.

Of course, Harry sees him as the obstacle in his way.
I thinkk Harry and Ron hate him because he is the head of Slytherin and he is always punishing them. But honestly, I hate many of my professors for less than that.

Anyway, I think that Harry will come to this realization. I think Harry definitely owes Snape....

Originally posted by DragonslayerX
well, i dont think u can really give snape credit for saving harry's life cuz harry stole something from him...

Nope, not claiming that he saved Harry's life with that, but it IS something Harry owes him....and a boomslang skin from Cos. Maybe Harry should drop in at the Apothecary's on one of his Hogsmeade weekends and buy some replacements for Snape's swiped supplies. ;)

Very interesting concept. I think things will change between them gradually. Snape sure does show his caring for Harry in unique ways. I'd like to see how Harry would repay him. ...But do you really think Snape will die?? ;-; I hope not!

I think Snape's saving Harry's life was only the first step Snape took in repaying James for saving his own life previously. But then again why would he be so cruel to Gryffndors yet save Harry's life? Snape doesn't want Harry dead but he hates him.

I reckon this is a matter of pride. Snape is too proud to show a soft face in front of Harry, not that he is a "soft" person, he just hides his feelings by acting cruel. Not that he isn't a cruel person...

i think A LOT of people will die... and i do believe that snape could very well be one of them

Originally posted by DogStar87
I think Snape's saving Harry's life was only the first step Snape took in repaying James for saving his own life previously. But then again why would he be so cruel to Gryffndors yet save Harry's life? Snape doesn't want Harry dead but he hates him.

I reckon this is a matter of pride. Snape is too proud to show a soft face in front of Harry, not that he is a "soft" person, he just hides his feelings by acting cruel. Not that he isn't a cruel person...

That's what I was wanting to say, well something along those lines, but I think I got distracted by something shiny and lost my train of thought :banghead: That always happens ><

But yeah, I defnitly agree, I can't wait to find out more about his character.

some points raise were good but i think we should not put too much emphisis on sanpe helping out harry .he may be helping harry out so that he can go back to hating james potter in peace without feelin guilty.

but still, it doesnt matter why snape is doing it...all that matters is how harry feels about it, and whether or not it will affect any of his future decisions

Originally posted by Inkwolf
Nope, not claiming that he saved Harry's life with that, but it IS something Harry owes him....and a boomslang skin from Cos. Maybe Harry should drop in at the Apothecary's on one of his Hogsmeade weekends and buy some replacements for Snape's swiped supplies. ;)


He can't then Snape would know he took them.

Like he doesn't know already. Just because you cant prove it doesn't mean you dont know.

Yes but if Harry replaced his supplies that would give Snape reason enough to prove it. And you really don't have to twist Snape's leg to get him to punish Harry now do ya?

Firstly, Snape already knows how Harry got hold of the Gillyweed, from Barty Jr.'s confession. Secondly, I doubt Snape could effectively punish Harry for the boomslang skin, if he only finds out about it by Harry trying to repay him for it three years after the fact. :p

Personally, it seems to me that a good portion of why the Gryffindors really hate Snape is that they are so scared of him. Some of it's his own fault, but when you think about it, he LOOKS scary, SOUNDS scary, ACTS scary, and the Gryffindors are all told before they start class that he can turn nasty, is a Dark Arts fanatic, and that he favors Slytherin....they come into class already primed to fear and hate him.

He doesn't hate Giffindor, he doesn't like any of the School Houses except for Slytherin. He just favours them so much more that it looks like he hates the others.

And why wouldn't he save Harry, Harry is a student of Hogwards, so that means that it's his and his fellow teachers responsibility to ensure their wellbeing. No matter how much he hates Harry's dad. Remember he's a responsible teacher, that means that he would probably save someone even if they weren't on Hogwards. Tell me, would you let someone die because you hate him?

He's pretty grumpy but that doesn't make him a murderer or evil.

right, hederic. but plus i dont think he "hates" harry, i think he wants to make it as hard for harry as possible, becuz he hates the idea of someone getting everything handed to them becuz of their name, or their popularity. and i think he believes this is what everyone else does with harry.


Originally posted by GlassRoses314
He can't then Snape would know he took them.

no he wouldnt, at least not necesarrily (i hate tryin to spell that word). who says harry would just go right up to snape, and hand him the stolen ingredients? why not just break back in and replace them secretly? then, his conscience would be happy, and he would avoid getting in trouble

I agree. From the little bit we know thus far about Snape's history, he seems to have been someone who didn't really fit in with the popular crowd (James, Sirius, Peter, Lupin, etc.), and grew very resentful of that type of person. He stopped looking for whether the person in question had actually earned and deserved their fame, and began to automatically assume that anyone with a degree of popularity has somehow stolen it. In addition, as a member of Slytherin house, he would have constantly been having labels thrown at him, almost as if he was expected to act a certain way.

Now, as an adult and teacher, he is exceptionally hard on the students and is constantly trying to prove to himself that he can still do without popularity. However, he has almost fanatical pride for Slytherin and this blinds him to a great deal, so even though he really wants to be fair, in the end he always ends up favoring his own house.

As for Harry, I think that he just sees in him the thing that he hated in James: fame and popularity. He can't bring himself to believe in the fact that it isn't really Harry's fault that he's famous, and as such he overcompensates in dealing with him, thinking he's just being fair.

In the end, I truly believe that we'll find that Snape will be the ultimate good guy. He just needs someone to forgive him and understand him like Dumbledore did when he allowed him to go free after his involvement with the Death Eaters. I think that if Sirius and Lupin can swallow their own pride (because Snape would never swallow his own) and offer their hands to him in real friendship, it would change everything.

Oh, and BTW: it's "necessarily," DragonslayerX :)

Originally posted by ErikvonRiese
never[/i] swallow his own) and offer their hands to him in real friendship, it would change everything.


:p I totally agree with this. Ooh you know what I can somewhat see is, Sirius and Snape being buddy buddy at the end. ^^; Or maybe I've just seen too many movie where people hate each other than become best friends. Either way.

Snape felt he was paying back his own debt to James during book 1 so the life debts are even now.

His intentions to not allow Harry to go to Hogsmeade were simply because he wants Harry to get caught breaking the rules. He doesn't like that Harry gets to break the rules and is never punished for it. Now we know that Harry has been punished before, but not in Snape's mind. Snape is a rule follower, and he prerfers strict adherance to the laws that are set down. Harry constantly breaks them. I think Snape likes to see the famous Mr. Potter get taken down a peg or two.

The Gilly weed wasn't Snape's doing. Snape happened to be the teacher at the time. It could've been any teacher, and even then the teacher didn't even know why the Gilly Weed was taken (IIRC). Gilly Weed is used in the courses, so it's not a coincidence that Snape had some on hand. Dobby is the one who had the intentions to help Harry, not Snape, since he's the one who stole the Gilly Weed. Dobby was just helping him with a task, much like Hermione, Moody, and Cedric did. There's no debt there to anyone regarding the Gilly Weed.

I don't think there's a debt at all between Snape and Harry remaining, but something changed at the end of book 4. Remember - Snape and Harry would have staring contests and Harry would always break it first. However, during the feast at the end of GoF, it was Snape who broek the stare.

I think we'll find that Snape will intervene quite a bit like he always has but for different reasons. Now that V is back, Harry is in more danger than before, and I think we'll find Snape working on Harry's behalf, instaed of just trying to be a putz about the rules.

I don't think that Harry owes anythign to Snape. And i forgot who said it in an earlier post but I do not think that Snape will die. I see Snape as beina very important character in the upcoming books, and I see his hatred for Harry diminishing once he working with Sirius and Remus, possibly even coming into an encounter with James (as a Ghost)??? and all differences will be put aside. I think he will help out in the fight against Voldemort so much that he might actually get the DADA job, eventually.

Originally posted by RJLupin
I don't think that Harry owes anythign to Snape. And i forgot who said it in an earlier post but I do not think that Snape will die. I see Snape as beina very important character in the upcoming books, and I see his hatred for Harry diminishing once he working with Sirius and Remus, possibly even coming into an encounter with James (as a Ghost)??? and all differences will be put aside. I think he will help out in the fight against Voldemort so much that he might actually get the DADA job, eventually.

I agree with you on everything except for I do not think we will see James as a ghost.

I agree, Harry owes Snape nothing. Snape owes James a debt no matter how it happened and that can only be repayed through helping Harry. I do think that Harry would help Snape if he was in trouble but remember Snape purposely makes Harrys life miserable in class, Harry doesnt do anything to deserve this hatred, its just their...

Originally posted by Katze
Snape felt he was paying back his own debt to James during book 1 so the life debts are even now.

Harry isn't James, though, he's an entire different person. Whether Snape feels he's paid James back is totally immaterial to how Harry feels about having his own neck saved.

The Gilly weed wasn't Snape's doing.

It was Snape's property, taken from his private stores in his office. So, if a friend steals something (say a 20-dollar bill) of yours from you, gives it to me, and I use it....do I not owe you something?

I don't think there's a debt at all between Snape and Harry remaining, but something changed at the end of book 4. Remember - Snape and Harry would have staring contests and Harry would always break it first.

Actually, I've heard this before, but don't agree with it. I never felt that their meeting each others eyes in the hall seemed to be a staring contest of any sort, and don't recall it ever being said which looked away first, apart from that Harry went on looking at Snape in GoF after Snape had turned away.

However, I do agree about something changing...Snape was no longer looking at him with an expression of loathing, but an unreadable expression. I think Snape's had an attitude adjustment of one sort or another--either he realizes he's missing the real danger by focussing on the feud with Harry, or realizing that Harry doesn't really need his protection any more...maybe even the other way round.

As for his motives on Hogmeade, no point in arguing since we can both insist till we're blue in the face that the other has no concept of what goes on in Snape's head.

Originally posted by Inkwolf
It was Snape's property, taken from his private stores in his office. So, if a friend steals something (say a 20-dollar bill) of yours from you, gives it to me, and I use it....do I not owe you something?Your original claim about the Gilly Weed was this: In GoF, at the height of the Harry vs Snape war, Snape was indirectly useful again--the gillyweed which Harry required for the second task was stolen from Snape.

Yes, Snape was indirectly useful, but this useful wasn't to save Harry's life. So there's no life debt here. My point was simply that had Snape not been the potions teacher at the time, than it would be another teacher whose Gilly Weed was stolen. So while Harry did use stolen Gilly Weed, and that it was stolen from Sanpe's office, the fact that it was Snape's is imaterial - to me at least. It could've been any teacher. This is a material debt, not a life debt. This is a debt that can be paid off. I'm sure Snape would be happy with a few afternoons worth of detention to pay this off.


Harry isn't James, though, he's an entire different person. Whether Snape feels he's paid James back is totally immaterial to how Harry feels about having his own neck saved.As for Harry's feeling about Snape saving his neck, of course he's going to feel something, but I'm not sure it's going to be a life debt. Snape's motives were explained in such a way that Harry was indirectly related Snape's own life debt. Snape feels that he owes James a life debt, but since James is dead, Snape is transferring that life debt to Harry. If James were alive, or if there wasn't a life debt to James, then I would accept that Harry owes Snape something. Question is - if James were a live, or if there wasn't a life debt, would Snape have helped at all?

If Snape's life needs saving and Harry is around, Harry will do what he can to save Snape, regardless of any debt. It is in Harry's character to do so, and will ultimately cause Snape yet another life debt to a family he despises.

Actually, I've heard this before, but don't agree with it. I never felt that their meeting each others eyes in the hall seemed to be a staring contest of any sort, and don't recall it ever being said which looked away first, apart from that Harry went on looking at Snape in GoF after Snape had turned away. The stares in the hallway seem like a test of wills. He loves to intimidate his students, especially Harry, Hermione, and Ron. I don't have my GoF in front of me, but I think it may have said something about Snape breaking first and that being unusual. When I get my book back, I'll be able to re-read it and clarify my point of view a bit more.

I think Snape's had an attitude adjustment of one sort or another--either he realizes he's missing the real danger by focussing on the feud with Harry, or realizing that Harry doesn't really need his protection any more...maybe even the other way round.I do like the idea that the preotection is now the other way around - that Snape will benefit from Harry's protection. I like this idea - for the main reason that Snape, who is so pompous about his position over Harry, might need his help one day.

Originally posted by Katze
Snape felt he was paying back his own debt to James during book 1 so the life debts are even now..

I don't think the life debts are exactly equal. After all James wasn't saving Snape for Snape's sake. He knew that he (James), Sirius, and Lupin would be in MAJOR trouble if Snape had stubbled into the Whomping Willow and had been killed. I don't think Snape saved Harry for Harry's sake either, but only for his own pride.

But it doesn't justify what James had did both TO and FOR him. However if Snape hadn't muttered the countercourse that saved Harry's it's highly likey that someone else would have, hundreds of wizards were around and if Snape knew the countercurse, many other of the Professors would've known it also.

It's weird because whenever Snape catches Harry's eye in the books and looks at him with that look "reserved only for Harry" I want desperately for Snape to be good, not evil...

I think this is an interesting topic, but the indirect debts can be taken too far. If Harry owes Snape for the Gillyweed, surely that means he also owes Flitwick for teaching him the Accio spell, Sirius for the Firebolt, Lupin for teaching him the Patronus, etc etc until it gets ridiculous. I think the actual life debt was cleared up in PS but if Harry found himself in a position to save Snape he'd consider all those other debts.

I think that Snape saved Harry in PS for the reason Dumbledore gave Harry (hating James memory in peace) But I think that Snape would also save any student in trouble, not matter what house their in.

But I also think that Snape saves Harry to get some personal satisfaction in a twisted sort of way, as if to let Harry no that he needs Snape to help him out.

snape does not really hate harry he hates his popularity as he wasnt popular when he was studying in hogwarts.may be he is just intimidating harry and breathing down his neck all the time ,to make sure he doesnt let it go to his head and make harry overconfident or complacent.So in his own way he is making sure harry that harry stays alert and looks out for things.

Two comments...

One:

I'm not clear on how the "life debt" thing works - is it some kind of *compulsion* to repay the debt, or does it rely on actual acknowledgement of the debt? If it's the latter, the only thing I see as causing an actual debt to Snape, in *Harry's* mind, is the broomstick incident in PS/SS. That is the only time that Harry has truly known his life was in danger and that Snape saved him. Harry knows (now) perfectly well that Sirius and Lupin weren't going to harm him, so I doubt he'll consider that an obligation. I also doubt that the Gilly Weed will even cross his mind in this respect. If anything, that obligation goes to Dobby. In fact, Harry said as much when he gave Dobby the socks they bought for him in Hogsmeade ("You saved my life with that Gilly Weed, Dobby. You really did." Or something close to that).

I believe that he accepts Dumbledore's explanation about Snape's debt to James, but I also think that Harry's character would not allow him to stand aside and allow Snape to be killed without lifting a finger (or wand) to save him, however much he might dislike it.

Two:

I have to confess, I'm having a little trouble with the "Snape is a nice guy who is just misunderstood" perspective. I do NOT believe Snape is truely evil, but I do think he's massively insecure, to the point of being slightly unhinged. Some of his actions just do not fit those of someone who is capable of seeing beyond his own feelings. He may dislike Harry because of his popularity, but that won't account for his hateful treatment of Neville. Neville's classmates all seem to like him, but I wouldn't exactly say he's a member of the popular crowd. Snape is a world-class bully who abuses his authority when he gets the chance.

As far as his instability, look at his threats to take Lupin to the Dementors with Sirius. That was pure spite, to the point of being self-destructive. What would Dumbledore have said? Snape knew very well that Dumbledore supported and believed in Lupin, but he didn't even stop to consider that when presented with the opportunity to inflict horrible damage to Lupin. Since Snape knew Lupin in school, he must have know that, in his human form, Lupin wouldn't hurt anyone without just cause. Snape's attitude is just not rational, in my opinion.

That said, I do think that Harry and Snape will be forced by circumstances to revise their treatment, if not their actual opinions, of one another.

Snape is one of the most complex characters in the books. He was a Death Eater who chose to go to the other side and turned spy. He must continue to portray himself as a Harry Potter hater, since this is the only way he can continue to spy. However, we know that Voldemort is onto him from the end of GoF. He is doing a great deal for Harry, in that it is through dealing with Snape that Harry is learning self control. He is making Harry stronger through continued adversity. I am waiting to see the continued evolution of the extraordinary complex relationship between Harry and Snape, assuming Snape survives the next book or two.

Back to the question, does Harry owe Snape? Absolutely. Harry has not yet acknowledged that debt, even to himself. In this way he is demonstrating a prejudice against Snape, perhaps borne of fear.

you guys are so observant. Every thing i hear is so .... informational. I love all the theories here

I think, if it came down to it...Harry would save Snape..he did help him in the first one when Quirrell was enchantng the broom..he helped him..he has sort of helped him, no matteer how much he may hate snape he may help him, maybe it will cause Harry's death, or when Harry saves Snape, Snape will change, or just pretend to hate Harry in fornt of everyone, so he doesn't lose his reputation

Actually, though I like Snape and think he means well, my opinion of him lies nearer Siriusly-Addicted's claim of extreme insecurity and self-centeredness than those who claim he's a nice guy pretending not to like Harry. (Hoping that he will get over it at some point.)

Two important points though: one, though Snape has always THREATENED to do terrible things, he has never actually DONE any of them. My opinion is that he feels he has to keep others in line/at a distance by maintaining fear. Case in point: the class where he told Longbottom his toad would be dosed with Longbottom's potion, and would probnably be poisoned. Notice how afterward, he conveniently retreats far enough away for Hermione to help Neville! So, yeah, a slightly psychotic individual who bullies and tries to play the heavy villain, yes--a pet murderer, no. He never used Veritaserum in Harry's pumkin juice either, for example. If he meant to do it, he would hardly have WARNED Harry, would he? Similarly, though he made those threats against Black and Lupin, and though he may have been quite serious even at the time he made them, I somehow doubt he would have actually carried them out. If he had, remember that from his point of view, they were both murderers and traitors, and that Dumbledore had been completely taken in by Lupin's deceit.

But the PoA scene, most often used to illustrate and point out Snape's evilness, is interesting from a different point of view of illustrating Snape's character: notice that everything Snape did, from death threats to rushing in to save someone else, was first done by HARRY HIMSELF! The main REAL difference is that Snape has a sharper tongue about it. But we give Harry the benefit of the doubt and condemn Snape....just as Lupin and Black did. Why did they leave Snape unconsious for the revelation of Pettigrew, when it would have meant they'd have a credible witness? Was it because, like the students, they were too afraid of Snape to risk his even being awake and bound? Or they were afraid of an adult witness as they planned and committed the murder of Pettigrew?

in this case i agree with Inkwolf. snape's too often been stamped with riddicule, he's hardly had enough dignity to defend himself.

Originally posted by Inkwolf
Or they were afraid of an adult witness as they planned and committed the murder of Pettigrew?

i think they've been planning this all along, that's why having an adult witness, especially if that person is snape, might seems to backfire everything in the public light.

Originally posted by Inkwolf
Actually, though I like Snape and think he means well, my opinion of him lies nearer Siriusly-Addicted's claim of extreme insecurity and self-centeredness than those who claim he's a nice guy pretending not to like Harry. (Hoping that he will get over it at some point.)I never thought he was a nice guy, and actually liked Harry. He despises Harry, but tolerates him because of his purpose in the overall picture.

But the PoA scene, most often used to illustrate and point out Snape's evilness, is interesting from a different point of view of illustrating Snape's character: notice that everything Snape did, from death threats to rushing in to save someone else, was first done by HARRY HIMSELF! The main REAL difference is that Snape has a sharper tongue about it. But we give Harry the benefit of the doubt and condemn Snape....just as Lupin and Black did. Why did they leave Snape unconsious for the revelation of Pettigrew, when it would have meant they'd have a credible witness? Was it because, like the students, they were too afraid of Snape to risk his even being awake and bound? Or they were afraid of an adult witness as they planned and committed the murder of Pettigrew? I think had Snape not tried to intervene in the situation, they probably would have left him awake. Snape wanted to be involved though - remember that he was looking for to his own Order of Merlin having captured the great and dangerous Sirius Black. He wanted to serve his own purpose, and really didn't care what happened to anyone else in the group.

I think that had Snape been awake - say maybe bound with binding spell like Hermione did to Neville, then Snape could've been a credible witness. Though he would seal Sirius and Lupin's fate for having witnessed Pettigrews murder, which wouldn't go unpunished, despite the extenuating circumstances. But even then, they wouldn't have been punished since Harry concvinced them not to kill Peter.

Originally posted by Katze
I think had Snape not tried to intervene in the situation, they probably would have left him awake. Snape wanted to be involved though - remember that he was looking for to his own Order of Merlin having captured the great and dangerous Sirius Black. He wanted to serve his own purpose, and really didn't care what happened to anyone else in the group.

There was never any mention of a medal or reward until AFTER the fact, by Cornelius Fudge. He was glad to be the one to catch Black, not because he believed he would be rewarded and honored, but because he believed it was only fair, because he had been Black's first attempted murder victim and had known all along that Black was evil, if only people would have listened to him back then.

Snape saw some students apparently endangered by Black and Lupin and set out to save them and capture the murdering villains who had been the nemesis of his own life. He was wrong (apparently, anyway) but that does not make it certain that his intent was selfish or evil. Neither does his obnoxious behavior. The fact is, if Snape had learned to be polite and considerate and play well with others, he'd most likely have done the same thing in that situation as he did, only minus the threats and insults..

I pretty much agree with Inkwolf et al on this subject. Whatever we may think, Snape as we know him now is definitely not a misunderstood nice guy, who's just all of a sudden going to "reveal" himself as Harry's secret friend and protector. He's a highly complex character with deep-seated, long held neuroses who has had trouble dealing with matters of pride, politeness, forgiveness and popularity for his entire life.

There is, however, enormous potential for good within him. All the traits we've come to hate in Snape -his pride, his fairness, his dogged persistance- are all qualities that, when used for the right reasons, are generally seen as very noble. The problem is that his pride will forever keep him from making the first move towards a reconciliation with anyone, so someone else will have to give. I predict that it will be either Harry or Sirius who does this, and that it will involve Snape warning them about doing something in his typical rude, intimidating way. Not bothering to think about whether he was right or not, they'll plunge right into it and end up in a relatively nasty situation.

Ah-ha! I can see it now! There's something that everyone thinks has to be done in the battle against Lord Voldemort -everyone except Snape, that is, who knows better and says as much. Harry determines to do it himself after Sirius privately mentions that Snape is just a jealous and spiteful git who wants to be different from everyone else. Harry soon finds himself in a trap, and is rescued by none other than Snape himself, who was anticipating that he would try something foolish. I can see the next scene unfolding thus:

***

Snape was silent and grim as he led Harry to Dumbledore's office, and Harry couldn't help but think that this was odd, as the weight of Snape's life debt to his father must have been lifted by his actions earlier that night.

Sirius was waiting in the office as well. He looked haggard and worried, but his eyes went wide with surprised relief when Harry was ushered in by Snape. Without waiting for an explanation, he rushed forward and smothered Harry with an embrace reminiscent of Mrs. Weasley. "Harry, thank God!" he said hoarsely. Then his eyes moved to Snape, who was still sulking by the door. Their eyes met, and Sirius spoke as though to a brother whom he had just discovered.

"You were right, Severus. You were right..."

***

Awww.... :)

Anyhoo, this is my prediction about how the debt will be squared away. Although Snape did help with the broom incident, I think it was made clear that Harry's life really wasn't in danger when Dumbledore helped him to survive his 50' plummet in PoA, and the indirectness of it all (sitting in the stands muttering a countercurse) makes it seem very cheap somehow. I think Snape really still owes James, and that we'll be seeing a much more dramatic move on the part of Snape to repay him.

I tend to think that a great deal of Snapes motives are severely mixed between selfishness and decent intentions, between emotional gratification and acomplishing a practical goal. But when it comes down to it, there are very few simple motivations with anyone.

I guess many of you will see that I have a certain cynasism for "white-knight" motivations and always tend to believe that other things come into play as well with most people. Not that there aren't genuinely self-sacrificing motives. And I don't think that people with alterior motives are bad people. I just tend to think that motivation is very complicated in general.

But I also believe Snape definitely needs to grow up.

I think one of the interesting things about Snape is that while he is obviously very intelligent, he is also incredibly petty and childish. This is actually like quite a few people I know, but thats beside the point.
He seems to do some things just to be petty, or just because he can.
I really do not think he is a 'good' person, and he certinatly(sp?) isn't 'nice'. I think he may have had the potential tobe, but as times goes on it is harder to change. But he isn't evil. He isn't like Lucius.

Actually, I think Sirius and Harry are also both too proud and stubborn to reconcile. :) In my opinion, the best chances for a reconciliation are just gradually learning to trust and depend on each other's strengths in the fight against Voldemort...like the way Harry, Ron and Hermione were brought together by fighting the troll.

"There are some things you cant do without becoming friends...."-sorry, couldn't resist.

I agree. They both seem really stubborn, and i'm not sure what it would take for them to work together. Although is Snape and Sirius can shake hands without killing eachother (OK, so Dumbledore was there, but there are some people I couldn't stay in the same room as, never mind be civil to) then it is possible.

Sorry if I'm bringing this over, I just did not want to open a new threat about the same thingh. In book 2..Hermione says that she learns about the Potion because Snape mentions it in the class..he also said the name of the book and that it was in the restricted section in the library..Why did he do that? He was giving them IDEAS.... What a coincidence that he mentions it..Don't you think?:eyebrows:

What I find interesting is this:

If James hadn't saved Snape, Snape wouldn't have been there to protect Harry. Without Snape, Harry would've gotten thrown off his broom in Book 1. Without Harry, Ginny would've died in the Chamber of Secrets. :) Harry even owes Dumbledore because Dumbledore saved him from Crouch and stopped him from falling too hard on the ground in Book 3. Pettigrew owes Harry his life as well. Things are really, really complicated in these books!

In the end, I think all of these are going to come together. There's a bond linking everyone!

i think one day Harry, will help snape, and snape will hate him even more.

Snape was just doing his duty as a teacher in book 1, and I'm suprised no other teachers (especially Hooch) didn't save Harry when his broom was out of control. He still hates Harry in every way possible.

Originally posted by hermownninny
In book 2..Hermione says that she learns about the Potion because Snape mentions it in the class..he also said the name of the book and that it was in the restricted section in the library..Why did he do that? He was giving them IDEAS.... What a coincidence that he mentions it..Don't you think?:eyebrows:

Interesting. :p I doubt he meant for the students to run out and try to make it, though. But I would like to know what the context of the class was, that he mentioned it in such detail!

Originally posted by Inkwolf
Interesting. :p I doubt he meant for the students to run out and try to make it, though. But I would like to know what the context of the class was, that he mentioned it in such detail!
You know this is a very, very good point. Think about it. I reckon it's very possible that Snape may have been trying to give the students a hint. Well, look at it this way. He's done it before. He assigned Harry's class work on werewolves hoping that someone would find out about Lupin. I reckon he knew a lot more about who was behind the attacks in Book 2 than we may think.

Yes, but how did he know that they wanted to infiltrate Slytherin Common Room and ask Malfoy a few questions? If he knew this, he'd be right there to catch them and throw them out of Hogwarts.

Snape knows Hermione remembers 'everything' and is a know-it-all. He knew she would try her best to look up the potion.

In every book it seems Snape or DD are droping hints to Harry then letting him and his 'TEAM' do what they need to do. But, they are there if he needs help.

Snape used to be the guy who told on James, Sirus, Lupin, and peter... Much like Malfoy...

I do think though Snape does like Harry deep down but wants him to be rooted and not think he is too light... personally I remember most the teachers who were 'mean' , unjust , ect as the best teachers I had for learning lessons.. even if they weren't lessons in that subject but lifes lessons.

Snape gets on Hermione for knowing it all to bring her down to earth.
He gets on Neville to help him not be so clumsy. (Neville needs not be so fearful of him) Snape also I am sure knows about his parents and why they are there.
He is strict with Ron to make him stronger.

I really beleive he is doing this to strengthen them in LIFES lessons and it brings them into a closer bond with each other.... a better working team for the tasks that might come up.

You know who will do everything he can to split them up.. thus weakening them.

Malfoy thinks he and his chumps are it... in the end I do beleive Snape will be behind Harry and the kids he was working to make work more as a team..

Just some thoughts

Perhaps snape is annoyed with Potters fame because part of the reason Voldemort fell out of power is Snape? Harry came along and stole all the glory and fame and shoved Snape to the side. Guess work here.

Do we know exactly how long Snape has been a teacher? It might help work out a few things.

Interesting question. I've always assumed that Dumbledore gave him the job after Voldemort went down, because Snape had nowhere else to go....

But it's quite possible, isn't it, that Snape was teaching at Hogwarts WHILE he was a Death Eater....

Anyway, none of the Weaselys have made any comments about a previous Potions teacher, so we can assume he's been there at least a few years.

I think Snape hates Harry but not for anything Harry's ever done or said.
In my opinion Snape hates Harry because he was jealous of James and in his mind things come too easy to Harry.

I've also always thought there was a good possibility that Snape had a crush on Lily and so hated James all the more.

if snape's intent was good, just to save them and actually believed that sirus and lupin were evil, snape wouldn't have made up the stuff about him being the hero and lied about harry ron and hermione being under a spell. he said that he had never seen pettigrew but then when hermione pointed out that he had been knocked out at the time, snape tells her to shut up. this was driven by the long held grudge against sirius and lupin that had lasted since they were at shcool together and he was jealous of them. this wansn't driven by saving lives, but by the urge to get back at the popoular kids:

i dont know how people can think that snape is just trying to ground harry and help neville. i mean if he was really doing it for their own good, why is he just trying to help the students of other houses? he's not being rude to slytherin students, so does that mean that he thinks they are perfect as they are? and that malfoys head needs to be inflated even more? no, i dont think he has good intentions. i think he hates harry just like he hated james.
also, someone said that snape coulda been a teacher and death eater at the same time. i dont really disagree or see this as ridiculous, however snape said that when the darkmark burned, they were expected to apparate att that moment at voldemort's side. well that would be kind of hard to do while teaching a class, it would be hard to be discreet about taht, plus you cant apparate or disapparate inside hogwarts grounds

by the way, i totaly agree with jofaye

Maybe he is trying to make sure that he fully repays James. He owed James something after saving Snapes life, but Snape couldn't save James'. He's trying to make it up by doing as much as possible for harry. And i just got a branching thought. What if Snape was the one that tipped Dumblefore off that the potters were about to be attacked, seeing he was a death eater? if he sees that as a form of repayment, but it didnt help, maybe something is going on there...

Originally posted by Re'em_Herder
Yes, but how did he know that they wanted to infiltrate Slytherin Common Room and ask Malfoy a few questions? If he knew this, he'd be right there to catch them and throw them out of Hogwarts.
Because Snape is weird, and his mind is a hard one to understand. He loves to get Harry in trouble and take points from Gryffindor over frivilous things, he may have reacted differently to this.

I can't get over it... why on earth does Snape keep saving Harry? I don't think it has anything to do with him being in debt to James. I'm leaning toward the possibility that Snape is, deep down, very fond of Harry, but that his immense pride will forever keep him from revealing this to the boy.

It's something like the fact that a person who likes someone else but is too embarrassed to admit it can be caught saying outright that he/she doesn't have feelings for that person, but quite the opposite. Can it be that Snape secretly adores Harry, wishing the boy was his own son or something? This would be an interesting fanfic.

You don't have to adore (or even like) someone to not want them to get killed...

...you just have to have the desire not to see any more death and destruction in your presence, when you could have done something to prevent it.

I think Snape wants Harry to be indebted to him. That's the impression I got from his conversation with Fudge near the end of PoA.
That and he wanted his order of Merlin, third class.

I hope they patch things up.

Originally posted by Inkwolf
It was Snape's property, taken from his private stores in his office. So, if a friend steals something (say a 20-dollar bill) of yours from you, gives it to me, and I use it....do I not owe you something?

I'm not sure I agree with that. If you take a loan from a bank, and then give it to your friend, who still owes money to the bank? The debt isn't transferred over to your friend. Your friend may owe you the money, but you still owe the bank.

With possessions that's a bit different, but still along the same lines. If I steal a possession of yours, and then give it to my friend, the friend should give it back to you, because it's yours. BUT I'm still the one who stole it, and I have a sort of moral debt toward you, even if you've gotten the possession back.

More on topic.. I don't think this particular incident was Snape's responsibility at all. It wasn't his intent to pass the Gillyweed along to Harry, and I'm assuming Gillyweed is just something that every potions master would stock up on. If Harry owes anyone anything for the Gillyweed, it's Dobby, for his trouble :)

Snape is a really difficult character to figure out, and I hope we get more information on him. I don't know if his bitterness is as deep as it seems. I do know that strict teachers are needed, too. My strictest teachers were probably the most effective ones I've had, and I certainly remember them a lot more than some of my other teachers.

I don't think it's really an act with Snape - he seems genuinely bitter. But even so, I'm sure there's a good side there somewhere. He may be mean and jealous and condescending, but he's still no Lucius Malfoy. Whether this will come out at all, or whether Harry will see it (and appreciate it), I have no idea. **checks countdown** 131 days till book 5!

Very interesting thread, Inkwolf :)

IMO, Snape saved Harry's life in PS/SS, so Harry does "owe" Snape. The fact that James had saved Snape's life is beside the point. Dumbledore didn't place any conditions on the statement he made to Harry in PoA.

"When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them."

That's it...pure and simple. It doesn't matter what happened in the other novels: Harry is indebted to Snape for this one act alone. Snape is certainly one of the most fascinating of JKR's characters, if not the most fascinating. There is so much still to discover in Snape. Why did he turn spy for Dumbledore? Why does he obviously hate Harry, but go out of his way to protect him? Why does he threaten Harry, but never follows through?

Maybe these will be answered in OotP.

P. S. I think Snape was in love with Lily, too!

just a couple of comments.
First, life debt or not the least Harry could do is spit a "thank you" out
of his mouth for the countercurse that kept him on his broomstick.
And isn't turning spy at "great personal risk" worth an order of Merlin in itself to the wizarding world? Or do we think not throwing Snape into
azkaban is enough thanks for sticking his neck out.

Originally posted by lorna
just a couple of comments.
First, life debt or not the least Harry could do is spit a "thank you" out
of his mouth for the countercurse that kept him on his broomstick.
And isn't turning spy at "great personal risk" worth an order of Merlin in itself to the wizarding world? Or do we think not throwing Snape into
azkaban is enough thanks for sticking his neck out.

A lot of what Snape does is thankless...which may have a great deal to do with his bitterness. Yes, Harry should have thanked him for saving his neck in SS/PS. Yes, the Ministry should have properly thanked him for putting his life on the line to spy. But, it doesn't seem that the ministry appreciates him any more than Harry does. Seems to me the only person who really appreciates him is Dumbledore...and that really gets to Snape. No matter what he does, no one recognizes him for it...and it all came to a head at the end of PoA in the hospital wing with the infamous "aneurysm Snape." Eventually people will thank him for all he's done...but I don't think it'll happen until he's dead.

Originally posted by hermownninny
In book 2..Hermione says that she learns about the Potion because Snape mentions it in the class..he also said the name of the book and that it was in the restricted section in the library..Why did he do that? He was giving them IDEAS.... What a coincidence that he mentions it..Don't you think?:eyebrows:

That was bothering me. Because it wasn't suggested that Snape had anything to do with the Chamber, I think it's just a plot device - the kind that JKR is usually too good to use.

Originally posted by dog star (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=167239#post167239))
A lot of what Snape does is thankless...which may have a great deal to do with his bitterness. Yes, Harry should have thanked him for saving his neck in SS/PS. Yes, the Ministry should have properly thanked him for putting his life on the line to spy. But, it doesn't seem that the ministry appreciates him any more than Harry does. Seems to me the only person who really appreciates him is Dumbledore...and that really gets to Snape. No matter what he does, no one recognizes him for it...and it all came to a head at the end of PoA in the hospital wing with the infamous "aneurysm Snape." Eventually people will thank him for all he's done...but I don't think it'll happen until he's dead.


Although I agree with most everything dog star said and I adore Snape, I do want to play devil's advocate for just a moment regarding Harry's seeming "ingratitude."

First of all, the circumstances in which Harry found out that Snape saved his life were...unusual, to say the least? It was just one of many strange things he learned that night. On top of that, Dumbledore, the man with all the answers, the only person who actually seems to understand Snape at all, was himself a bit vague as to Snape's motives. "He wanted to be able to go back to hating your father's memory in peace" wouldn't exactly flood me with warm feelings for the man, either.

More important, though, is the simple fact that from the very first time they meet, Snape treats Harry like something nasty he can't quite scrape off his shoe. Even at the Leaving Feast, Harry meets Snape's eyes and realizes "Snape's feelings for him hadn't changed one jot."

It's terribly intimidating to approach anyone who dislikes you for any reason, even when you're more or less on equal footing with them. When you're an eleven-year-old child and it's your big scary Dark-Arts-loving teacher, it's almost impossible.

InkWolf: You give Snape waay too much credit. At best, he and Harry are even because he's indirectly responsible for Harry's scar (he was unable to repay his blood debt to James) and the debt was still owing.

In CoS--It was purely incidental that the students learned anything at the Dueling Club. Snape wanted to shut Lockhart up. Too bad it didn't work. Oh, he also wanted to embarrass Harry. Well, that backfired as well. Instead of embarrassing him, he made him a pariah in the eyes of the other students.

In Book 3--Snape was a total jerk, start to finish. He derived great pleasure in keeping Harry away from Hogsmeade simply because Harry hadn't been lucky enough to get the form signed. His "rescue" Total fabrication. Had Harry been tucked in bed in his dormitory, Snape would have gone after Black in the Shrieking shack and he and Black would have been lovingly Kissed (say goodbye to your souls boys) and Lupin would have gone on a rampage, either into the castle or into Hogsmeade. I doubt he would have run into the forest.

4. Again, no credit here. The gillyweed would have been obtained without him, and probably without his store if necessary, ti was actually a device that helped Voldemort. At best, the scales are even between Snape and the Potters. But I don't think so. He deliberately endangered them all in Book 3 and then tried to take credit for a rescue in which he was nothing but a hindrance. His motives improved in GoF, but not enough to celebrate anything yet.

In conclusion, what does Harry oh Snape?

I quote Edwin Starr "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!":angry:

Edit: Snape is understandably bitter about the lack of respect he got as informer in Dumbledore's network

As to the rest of it--Pufferskein, Snape was as usual bullying a clumsy Gryffindor (Neville?) and threatening him with all kinds of unspeakable things for being such a clumsy lout. Hence he brought up Moste Potente Potions and some of the tricks he'd like to use that actually force Neville and a few other Gryffindors to learn something. Snape began to redeem himself in "The Return" and "The Parting of the Ways" but not enough that we should begin to talk about Harry owing him anything.

Interesting post jordmundt6
. :)

Wether Snape meant to cause the actual outcomes that came from his actions is irrelevant. Snape has still had a great impact on Harry's life. Each person in it has effected Harry in some way.
Harry doesn't have a life debt situation with Snape but who knows how things would have turned out for Harry if Snape weren't the way that he is?

Sorry, jortmundt6, but I think that's a load of skrewt fewmets. :p

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=276191#post276191))
At best, he and Harry are even because he's indirectly responsible for Harry's scar (he was unable to repay his blood debt to James) and the debt was still owing.

In what remote way can Voldemort's attempt to kill Harry possibly be Snape's responsibility???? Snape was risking his life doing all he could against Voldie! And Snape's 'debt' to James is very small, IMO--at little or no risk to himself (who could have transformed himself safely into a stag at any time Lupin attacked), James pulled him out a of deadly situation that James' friend put Snape in.


In CoS--It was purely incidental that the students learned anything at the Dueling Club. Snape wanted to shut Lockhart up. Too bad it didn't work. Oh, he also wanted to embarrass Harry. Well, that backfired as well. Instead of embarrassing him, he made him a pariah in the eyes of the other students.

Suuuuuure, Snape agreed to help with the dueling club for the sole purpose of making Harry and Lockhart look like idiots. :rolleyes: Really, do you think Snape has no life at all, that that's all he can think of to do with himself?

In Book 3--Snape was a total jerk, start to finish. He derived great pleasure in keeping Harry away from Hogsmeade simply because Harry hadn't been lucky enough to get the form signed. His "rescue" Total fabrication. Had Harry been tucked in bed in his dormitory, Snape would have gone after Black in the Shrieking shack and he and Black would have been lovingly Kissed (say goodbye to your souls boys) and Lupin would have gone on a rampage, either into the castle or into Hogsmeade. I doubt he would have run into the forest.

Sooooo, you think students should be allowed to go into a potentially dangerous situation, when their parents or guardians refuse to give permission, and when there's an escaped murderer planning to target the student?

So, if a mad killer had escaped from prison and was believed to be stalking YOU, and your parents refused to let you go on a school trip to a place the murderer might be waiting for you, and you tried to sneak on the bus anyway, obviously any teacher who stopped you must be EVIL!!! :rolleyes: Harry not having a signed form wasn't a matter of not being 'lucky', his legal guardians had refused to sign it, and like any other school, Hogwarts must uphold the wishes of the legal guardians.

And had Harry been safely tucked in bed, Lupin wouldn't have been rushing out to rescue him, Snape wouldn't have had to come to his office to make sure he drank his potion (or if he did, Lupin would have drank it and Snape would have left) the map wouldn't have been left lying out on the desk unattended, and none of it would have happened.

4. Again, no credit here. The gillyweed would have been obtained without him, and probably without his store if necessary, ti was actually a device that helped Voldemort.

Judging from previous books, where Harry and his friends felt perfectly free to steal Snape's property before, I see no reason to assume that the Gillyweed wouldn't have come from Snape in any case.

At best, the scales are even between Snape and the Potters. But I don't think so.

Ummmm......James saved Snape once, from his best friend's deathtrap. Snape saved Harry once against someone he had no connection with, and has tried to help him (in his resentful, obnoxious way) several times. What has Harry EVER done for Snape, apart from steal his stuff????

He deliberately endangered them all in Book 3 and then tried to take credit for a rescue in which he was nothing but a hindrance.

He did???? Explain how he deliberately endangered anyone, please. I don't remember that part at all.


Snape was as usual bullying a clumsy Gryffindor (Neville?) and threatening him with all kinds of unspeakable things for being such a clumsy lout. Hence he brought up Moste Potente Potions and some of the tricks he'd like to use that actually force Neville and a few other Gryffindors to learn something.

Where's you get THAT conclusion? From a fan-fic? You don't think it's likely that he happened to mention a potion in potions class???? :lol: In what way do you suppose Polyjuice Potion would terrify Neville into competence? Did Snape threaten to make him look like Goyle for an hour?

I think you need to read the books again, and keep an open mind.

I think Harry owes Snape a "thanks for not letting Professor Quirrel knock me off my broom."

One more time InkWolf.

Snape owes James Potter a blood debt. But you, like Snape, assume thaqt because James knew the person who set the deathtrap (Sirius), that James had to be in on it and just chickened out at the last minute. Or, that his knowing Sirius in some other way cheapens the rescue. But Dumbledore cleared this up at the end of PoA. James didn't know about the "joke" until after Snape had already been lured to the Whomping Willow. When he heard about it, he went straight to the tunnel and pulled Snape out, even positioning himself between Snape and the opening so that, should the werewolf attack he (James) and not Snape would be harmed. But Snape learned Lupin's secret.

Now, I don't have hard proof of this yet, but I believe Snape tried to pay James back before Harry's first year at Hogwarts. We learned in GoF that Snape was Dumbledore's spy in Voldemort's inner circle near the end of the war. We learned in PoA from Fudge that "Dumbledore had a number of useful spies" and that "one of them tipped Dumbledore off that Voldemort was gong after the Potters." This plan would only have been discussed among the most trusted Death Eaters. I assume therefore, that Snape was the one who heard about it sincce he had developed close ties with the clique that contained many of Voldemort's most trusted servants (Malfoy, the Lestranges, Avery, etc.). Snape tried to pay James back in grand fashion, but serving as the means of escape for James' entire family, but the attempt backfired. James and Lily wound up dead. The blood debt was still outstanding.

Snape did an admirable thing, keeping Harry on his broom until Hermione broke Quirrel's eye-contact. Snape and the Potters were even. Now Snape could go back to "hating [Harry's] father's memory in peace." as Dumbledore put it.

In CoS, the Polyjuice Potion thing was a random plot twist. Snape supposedly mentioned it in class (the context is not specified) and Hermione looked it up and found out it was in Moste Potente Potions, a book in the Restricted Section.

Now PoA. This is the most crucial one. Snape had every right to discipline Harry but instead of docking points or imposing an unfair detention (as he is usually wont to do), Snape chose to waste time by slandering James Potter, an entirely wasteful exercise. Particularly since he lied through his teeth.

But, that's not even the important part. Yes, Snape endangered all their lives that night by putting the Dementors on alert. Had Harry been in bed asleep, Snape still would have gone out to the Shrieking Shack. Why? because he found out where Sirius Black was and couldn't resist the opportunity to turn Black over to the Dementors. Had Harry not been there, Snape would have dragged Lupin and Black to the surface (bound of course) and dragged them towards the castle and the dementors. Depending on how fast he got back to the castle grounds, either all three of them would have been Kissed by the ravenous Dementors, or Snape and Black would have been Kissed and werewolf-Lupin would have takeen off running (hopefully tward the forest). It would depend on whether the clouds were still obstructing the moon when the dementors surrounded them. So, as I said, Snape was a jerk from start to finish in PoA, torturing Harry with lies about his father under color of authority and recklessly endangering himself and them all in his eagerness to turn Black over to the Dementors.

GoF--Crouch Jr. gets credit for supplying the gillyweed, not Snape. Snape had no hand in it. Dobby raided the school's stores. Gillyweed would have been there whether it was Snape or any other qualified Potions Master or Mistress.

He did begin to redeem himself by volunteering for double-agent duty again and trying to make Fudge see the truth. But nowhere near the point where Harry owes him anything. They're even. That's it.

Oh, and Harry has saved Snape from having his soul consumed by Dementors in PoA. They're more than even, especially since Snape put himself in harm's way in the first place.

In the Dueling Club, Snape demonstrated Expelliarmus once (to shut Lockhart up). His most active participation in the Dueling Club was attempting to shame Harry by coaching Draco to set a snake on Potter. Well, they didn't succeed in humiliating Harry, but they made him a pariah in the eyes of the other students when he showed that he was a Parselmouth.

One last thing. What James did was "at great risk to his own life." (Dumbledore's explanation (either in "Hermione's Secret" or "Owl Post Again"). He got Severus to safety and acted as a human shield. He could not have transformed into a stag because the Shrieking Shack tunnel (which Harry and Hermione had to maneuver by crouching) was TOO SMALL for his stag form. If he'd transformed into a stag, he'd hav barely had enough space to lay down in that tunnel.

And, technically, the Dursleys are NOT Harry's legal guardians.

And Hagrid's clumsiness in his grief in setting the table would have necessitated a new pitcher anyway. Pettigrew would ave been smoked out, and Lupin would have seen Black chasing Pettigrew all over the grounds. Black probably would have herded Pettigrew into the tunnel eventually. Lupin rushes off to see what the heck is going on, Snape shows up, sees the map and heads off for his revenge. Black and Lupin are interrupted as they prepare their Avada Kedavras for Pettigrew. Pettigrew turns back into a rat as Snape enters. Snape trusses his two old enemies and rushes them out to the Dementors only to find *gasp* the Dementors are so ravenous that they don't discriminate between him and Black. All three end up worse than dead.

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=276934#post276934)) But you, like Snape, assume thaqt because James knew the person who set the deathtrap (Sirius), that James had to be in on it and just chickened out at the last minute.

Not at all, but I think James got too much credit for 'risking his own life' and that the rescue had just as much to do with keeping Sirius and Lupin out of trouble as saving Snape.

Yes, Snape endangered all their lives that night by putting the Dementors on alert.

What makes you think Snape alerted the Dementors? They were patrolling the school already, guarding against Black. Snape had nothing to do with their presence at all.

Had Harry been in bed asleep, Snape still would have gone out to the Shrieking Shack. Why? because he found out where Sirius Black was and couldn't resist the opportunity to turn Black over to the Dementors.

Again, if Harry had been in bed, Snape would never have known Black was in the shrieking shack. It was a direct result of Harry's NOT being in bed that led to Snape's discovery.

Gillyweed would have been there whether it was Snape or any other qualified Potions Master or Mistress.

So? It belonged to Snape. Harry owes him for it. If someone went into your house and stole your stereo for me, I owe you a stereo.....I can't just laugh and say that it doesn't count because if you didn't live in that house, it would just have been someone else's stereo, can I?

Oh, and Harry has saved Snape from having his soul consumed by Dementors in PoA.

He would not have been there and in danger if not for Harry, and he would not have been defenseless if not for Harry, Ron, Hermione, Black and Lupin. And they were saving themselves as much as Snape--they didn't exactly take any extra risks for his sake. "Oh, my God, we have to go back--we left Snape to the Dementors!" Nope, none of that.

In the Dueling Club, Snape demonstrated Expelliarmus once (to shut Lockhart up).

After which, all the students were put in pairs and told to practice disarming....Coincidence????

His most active participation in the Dueling Club was attempting to shame Harry by coaching Draco to set a snake on Potter.

If you didn't happen to notice, Lockhart also went to coach Harry at the same time Snape went to coach Draco. If Lockhart hadn't been an idiot, he'd have taught Harry something to use then, too--he was SUPPOSED to teach Harry how to block a spell. So, what you're doing here, is blaming Snape for the fact that he is a better coach than Lockhart.

He could not have transformed into a stag because the Shrieking Shack tunnel (which Harry and Hermione had to maneuver by crouching) was TOO SMALL for his stag form. If he'd transformed into a stag, he'd hav barely had enough space to lay down in that tunnel.

Please direct me to the section where it desvribes the size of the tunnel. It seems to have been large enough for Harry to have a good view of Sirius levitating a man with a head injury so that he was whacking his skull against the roof....hard to see that if you're crouching along behind somebody.

And, technically, the Dursleys are NOT Harry's legal guardians.


Technically, they WERE and ARE indeed. Sirius was in prison, and is now a prison escapee on the run, being hunted down, and hardly in a position to watch over Harry. Harry was placed in the Dursely's care as his nearest living relatives. They may be loathesome, but they ARE his legal guardians, until removed by the law.

Let's try to calm down - there's no reason for this to escalate any more than this already has.

James wasn't in the danger that Snape was in when he saved Snape's life. The fact that he could transform, even if he didn't, gave him safety that Snape didn't have. There's nothing to say he couldn't have transformed, so I'm assuming he could have. Simple as that. Of course, there's the slight problem that James would have been in serious trouble had he transformed while Snape was watching, but if it came to saving Snape's life in that way...oh, this is pure speculation, but I highly doubt James would have let Snape die. At any rae, however and why James went after Snape, the simple fact is that he saved Snape's life, and because of magical debt, I don't think the method of saving matters much.

I'm under the impression that Harry does owe Snape a little something called respect, as Snape owes Harry respect (and seems to be on the verge of giving him it). Nothing more and nothing less. Snape has done some things that might have been worth a thank-you, but he's also done some stupid things that caused problems and has been a bit of a jerk. As Harry has. You can try to add up this and that and level whatever you want, but I think they're on the same bill. And respect can't be balanced out. [/rant]

Originally posted by Tarawyn (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=277417#post277417))
Let's try to calm down - there's no reason for this to escalate any more than this already has.


I dunno, it's been raining all frikkin' week, here, and I have nothing better to do than fight to defend Snape's honor. :lol:

You're right, though, Tarawyn, mutual respect is what we'd all like to see from Harry and Snape, and we'll probably see it by the end of the series, if the two of them continue to grow up. :)

I apologize if my posts seem to be hostile, I didn't mean tham that way. I'm actually quite enjoying the little debate with my worthy opponent, not having found much on Mugglenet lately that was nearly as interesting to discuss!

I am attempting to be civil and I do see some validity in some of the points you are making. I dislike, however, being labeld as someone who would conflate a fanfic with the books,

And Snape's toes were on the stone floor of the tunnel, Sirius was holding him upright, but not off the ground. In order to get into the tunel, Crookshanks (who is considerably smaller than Sirius the "bearlike dog" had to "slide in." Both Harry and Hermione crawled into the opening (Cat, Rat & Dog). When they started moving "Harry set off bent-backed." So, he's almost doubled over (and we know he's short, for a guy). There is no way a fully grown stag could have contorted itself to crawl on four legs through that tunnel. A fully grown man would have to crawl. That's why it was such slow going on the way out. Lupin, Pettigrew (tied up) and Ron had to come out slowly and sideways. James could not have transformed and gotten Snape out. He had a choice. Protect himself, or protect Snape. He chose to protect Snape.

It is quite possible that in the bustle of the execution, Hagrid would have attempted to be a gracious host to the Headmaster, or the Headmaster would have suggested a cup of tea (and milk) and Hagrid's nerves would have caused him to shatter the pitcher. So Pettigrew could have been discovered without Harry. Pettigrew would have been forced onto the grounds. Lupin, expecting to see Harry, Hermione and Ron would have been relieved that they had not broken school rules but would have gone nuts when he saw Pettigrew out running around. See my previous post for how things would have turned out then.

Reason: Remus would have left in a rush (without taking his potion), and Snape would have come in and seen the map. He would have seen his three enemies together, and he would have gone after Black.

"Vengeance is very sweet...How I hoped I'd be the one to catch you."

"The joke's on you again Severus, as long as you let Remus bring that rat, I'll come to the castle quietly."

"The castle? Oh we don't need to go that far. I'll just summon the Dementors when we get out on the grounds. They'll be most pleased to see you Black. Enough to give you a little kiss I dare say." Insert cackle of glee here.

Black tries to reason with him

"I'll bring the werewolf along. Perhaps the Dementors will have a kiss for him too."

Snape would have walked into his own soul-sucking. He was so exultant in his revenge that he never would have stopped to consider the possibility that the Dementors were so ravenous that they wouldn't discriminate at all. And Snape would not have realized in time that he was in danger. He would have had no more luck with a Patronus than Harry did (and Harry's full Patronus is stronger than Dumbledore's formless "silver something" Patronus. Snape wouldn't have had a chance.

And thanks for the compliment InkWolf. I must admit, your posts are forcing me to consider Snape in a new light.

I don't think respect will be shown until Harry reaches adulthood. Snape isn't going to see a child in that light. Harry might realise that Snape won't change and accept him as he is much the way that Dumbledore has.

I agree with Fuchsia.
I think once Harry grows up he'll understand Snape more.
However I wonder if Snape will ever grow up.

Fuschia, that's true. But the folks on this thread are arguing that Harry isn't showing Snape the respect and gratitude he deserves :lol:

If Harry didn't respect Snape I wouldn't blame him. We don't all forgive people for being jerks especially when they don't have a reason to be. However, Snape does have his good points along with the bad. Dumbledore likes him afterall.
Acceptance is a good thing to have. Harry and Snape are going to continue having dealings with each other afterall.

Weatherby, Snape might grow up at the end of the series once this is all settled.
Maybe he didn't have closure before.

It's not easy to show gratitude towards someone who makes a big show of his dislike for you every time he sees you. We're reading the books, so we're more objective when it comes to seeing how much Snape really has done for Harry (though most of it was done indirectly). But Harry is still a kid, and all he sees is that Snape has a great dislike for him and for his father. Kids tend not to look past the face value of things. Harry sees a glaring, scowling professor who makes his life difficult any way he can. Why would Harry show him any appreciation?

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=276934#post276934))

Now PoA. This is the most crucial one. Snape had every right to discipline Harry but instead of docking points or imposing an unfair detention (as he is usually wont to do), Snape chose to waste time by slandering James Potter, an entirely wasteful exercise. Particularly since he lied through his teeth.

Come again? As far as Snape knew, James WAS in on the "trick" , so exactly what was he lying about? And you have no idea if this was "slander" or not. I mean, how do you know James Potter [I]didn't "strut?"

But I do agree that Snape did NOT punish Harry for sneaking off to Hogsmeade, as he bloody well should have; instead, once again, he let a wonderful, kindly Gryffindor teacher sweep in to the rescue and escort Harry, detentionless and points intact, out of his office. Funny how often THAT seems to happen... :rolleyes:

How do I know James didn't strut? Easy. Snape sees exactly the same behavior in Harry. And Harry most definitely doesn't strut.

One thing about Snape. Usually, the first thing Snape does is dock points. It usually only takes him a couple of seconds when he has the evidence. Here he decided to go off on a riff, exacerbated by Harry's unusually violent defiance. And the only other time he ended up in Snape's office, Harry did lose points A LOT of points. He came within an inch of getting expelled. And he got detention then. Snape has also quite liberally handed out detentions to Harry in the classroom.

And Snape had the whole "prank" thing out with James and Remus and Sirius in Dumbledore's offic when it happened. And he heard James' story with corroborating witneses. The fact that he judged James against his own standards and not against the truth is not James' fault. Nothing from Snape's outburst in his office suggests that Dumbledore didn't know the truth, just that he chose not to tell Harry.

Also, if James had really been in on it, I doubt Snape would actually have owed him a blood debt. But there was one. And Snape has tried, repeatedly to repay it.

I agree that Harry deffinately owe Snape some respect at the very least as does Snape Harry. I don't know whether or not that will ever happen I guess we'll have to wait till the next couple of books to find out.
Harry should of thanked Snape for a lot of things, though I do think that Snape is unfairly carrying on the hate for James to Harry. Someone needs to teach Snape to build a bridge and get over it..

A thank-you for the Quirrel thing would have ben appropriate, but not for much else. Besides, Snape would have been offended that time if Harry had approached him. The time he wanted thanks he totally misread the situation.

Every once in while, I get onto one of the Snape threads and advertise my article on

http://www.harrypotterfacts.com

called "Severing the Snarl form Severus Snape." I should have just made it into a thread a long time ago, but this was before I knew about this fabulous site.

Anyway, in terms of the broom-jinxing, I have a feeling that the biggest impression on Harry was that it was Hermione who saved him. She tried to save him by setting fire to Snape's cloak, and actually saved him by knocking over Quirrell. I doubt if Harry's put enough thought into the event to really connect the fact that Hermione would have been too late if it hadn't been for Snape. So I think a thank-you on that one is a long time coming.

I like the idea of Harry buying replacement gillyweed and boomslang skin at some point for Snape's stores. Very cute. Reminds me a little of the socks for Dobby. But again, I don't see it happening anytime soon. Harry's too afraid of Snape yet to want to formally accept responsibility for those two things, especiallly now that Crouch, Jr. has effectively cleared his name.

No matter what people say, as a teacher myself, I truly see Snape's behavior towards Harry and Neville as uneccessary belligerence, just as his behavior towards Malfoy is unecessary favoritism. Ron and Hermione usually only receive the sharp end of Snape's tongue when they're caught in the Harry or Neville crossfire.

Nor do I agree with the idea of Snape being insecure and all soft and hurt and lonely and misunderstood. One of my favorite quotes is JK responding to why Voldemort used Quirrel instead of Snape:

"Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban."

True, this could be interpreted as a fear of looking uncool, but I see it as another manifestation of his self-assured confidence and humor. I honestly don't believe that Snape gives a rat's whisker about what other people think of him. He's doing fine enough on his own, and is plenty entertained.

As you can tell, I don't think he's evil either. I believe that he's calculatingly (as someone else said) giving Harry "life lessons," while simultaneously watching out for Harry's neck.

I believe that Snape turncoated on Voldy because he learned of the plan to destroy the Potters. I believe that Snape is the one who originally gave this information to DD-- that that was his first act as spy. I believe that once Voldy fell, DD made a very elaborate long-term plan for Harry's education (most of which wouldn't be from the Hogwarts curriculum), and that DD also kept Snape close to his side to keep Snape safe from the ticked-off and frightened DE's.

And I believe that Snape is acting on DD's orders in his treatment of Harry, and that he doesn't really believe any of the things he says to Harry, but that he does have a lot of fun acting his role.

Pretty far-fetched, but it's something to entertain my brain while I'm waiting to be proven wrong by the upcoming books.

Originally posted by jordmundt6 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=277542#post277542))
Snape would have come in and seen the map. He would have seen his three enemies together, and he would have gone after Black.


I just feel like clearing up on a few details of POA. The Marauder's Map does not show the Shrieking Shack. What Snape saw when he found the map on Lupin's desk was Lupin running along the tunnel to the shack. Snape did not know that Sirius and the kids were there. However, it's very reasonable to assume that Snape suspected that Sirius was in the shack, since he thought Lupin was helping him and he knew that Sirius knew how to reach the shack.

Originally posted by eos (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=330409#post330409))
"Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban."

True, this could be interpreted as a fear of looking uncool

Or it could be interpreted that Snape was too smart to let Voldemort into his head.

I'm sorry, I just really can't picture Snape in a turban!
*Cracks up laughing*
I think he knows he has more to gain by fighting.

@-'-,-------------

quote, Inkwolf:

"Or it could be interpreted that Snape was too smart to let Voldemort into his head."


quote, Wild Rose:

"I think he knows he has more to gain by fighting."

To me it's connected with the DE circle scene at the graveyard. There is just no way that Snape would stand to crawl on his belly to kiss the cloak-hem of some freakish, snake-faced naked dude. No way.

Yes, it's because he's too smart for Voldy's mind games and he knows that ultimately, in one way or another, it IS the losing side. Still, I can't help but attribute most of it to pride and humour. By humour, I mean the ability to see things outside of their present context, and then to rise above that vision.

There's just a whole "You've got to be kidding me" air about Snape, you know? That's why it's so hard to picture Snape as anyone's victim. Especially Harry's. Unrecognized, unthanked life-debt included, don't you think he gets a good chuckle every once in a while at Harry's adolescent boyishness? Especially when Snape's just gone out of his way to really tick Harry off. All the students are gone, and Snape's at his desk, reliving the moment of watching Harry smash the beetles into a fine powder, a look of unrefined fury on Harry's face...

Ever hear of double jeopardy? (they even made a movie about it :) ) Even if Sirius had killed Pettigrew, it wouldn't matter who'd witnessed it (the only person it might be bad for is Lupin). If Sirius was convicted of Pettigrew's murder -which he was- and (others' murders that Pettigrew had committed) and had served the time - well, he served most of it- it would hav ebeen perfectly legal for him to kill the person he'd been imprisoned for killing and served the time for killing. Get where I'm going?

By the way, any one else would have killed Sirius if they'd caught him on the run, why should it be any different for Pettigrew?

By the way, any one else would have killed Sirius if they'd caught him on the run, why should it be any different for Pettigrew?

I sure he would have if he could have if you know what I mean. Sirius, we know is a much more powerful wizard than pettigrew will ever be. Plus, sirius was fueled by the prospect of catching the person who had killed his best friend as well as the person who sent him to azkaban. Pettigrew had no chance if he tried to. There is one thing that Peter is good at, which is deciding which situations will fit him and fulfill his needs the most. And trying to kill sirius isn't on of them!

I agree with Dogstars reply about how Snape was repaying James for the many times he saved him. I don't think that Harry owes Snape anything, especially since Snape tries so hard to get Harry into trouble whenever he can, like the time that he tried to get him expelled from Hogwarts in CoS when he found out Harry and Ron used the car to school and muggles saw them.

Originally posted by firebolt2000 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=347530#post347530))
like the time that he tried to get him expelled from Hogwarts in CoS when he found out Harry and Ron used the car to school and muggles saw them.


I just had a weird idea...actually I've been thinking about it the whole time while rereading the books for book5. Well, what if in a weird way, Snape is being like Dobby, trying to get him to go home all the time and keep him safe. He cares about his welling being but that's just his way of showing it maybe?

I don't think Snape cares about Harry's well - being, or else he certainly has a funny way of showing it. Snape didn't like his father and tried to get him and his friends expelled on numerous occasions. I just think he plainly dislikes the Potters, and he is saving Harry whenever he can to repay for what his father did. Harry doesn't owe Snape anything, since Snape tries to get him in trouble so much.

Snape is fully aware of the fact that there is no way that DD's going to let Harry get expelled. It's too dangerous for him outside of Hogwarts. So Snape may bark a lot, but he can't actually be trying to get him expelled, because that's something he knows it's just not possible to do. When Snape goes on about suspension and expulsion, he's just trying to freak Harry out.

I agree agree with I heart Sirius-- it's part of wanting to protect Harry. If you look very carefully over the books, most of Snape's confrontations with Harry are regarding Harry's wandering, and when it comes right down to it, nothing Snape says is any different from what Hagrid, Hermione, Mc Gonagall, Sirius and even Lupin say.

I don't think that JKR's given us any reason at this point to just automatically accept characters on a first-impression, face-value. And I do think that Snape will prove to be a very good actor.

I still have some issues with Snape being on the dark side at all. He doesn't seem the type to be in awe of someone else's power or to grovel at their feet (like the DE's do to Vodie in the 4th book).
But back onto the subject, I think that Harry does owe Snape a lot, it is those people that are hard on us that make us become stronger as my mother has always said, hard times (people also) are just sent to test us.

I certainly think that all the times that Snape has caught Harry wandering around at night just goes to show he doesn't like him. Snape had the same feelings for James and tried to get him into trouble as well, and Snape didn't care for James, he hated him. I don't think Snape has any intention of keeping him safe, he has been so cruel to him and tried to get him into serious trouble before that it just simply demolishes any thought of him saving Harry for his own purposes from my mind.

I also don't think he would claim to try to expell Harry and go at great lengths as he did such in CoS just to scare him. If he wanted to keep Harry safe, he wouldn't mention expelling him, I think he should have just given him several detentions for Harry and Ron flying the car to Hogwarts.

Originally posted by firebolt2000 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=372390#post372390))
I certainly think that all the times that Snape has caught Harry wandering around at night just goes to show he doesn't like him.


Soooo, if HARRY breaks the rules...and SNAPE happens to catch him at it, which is part of his job as a teacher...it's obviously all Snape's fault, and he's being specifically mean to poor innocent Harry?

And if YOU broke a major law...like stealing a car to get to school...do you think your principal/guidance counselor or whoever would just suspend you for three days, with no other consequences?

You must go to a reaaaaalllly easy-going school.

Here we go again. Looking at things in the absolute best light for Snape, they're square. James saved Snape's life by putting his own body between Snape and a fully grown werewolf (he couldn't transform).

Oh good I get to finish.

Snape saved Harry's life first year. Most assuredly. This paid his blood debt to James (one that he probably tried to repay 10 years earlier, but instead of helping, unintentionally contributed to the Potters' deaths). That far they're even.

Second year--No, Snape did not save Harry and Ron's lives or their memories. Harry did that. He paid attention at the Dueling Club and put what he learned there to good use. Using your standards, I'm sure you'll concede that Professor Flitwick saved Harry, Ron, and Hermione when they were cornered by the mountain troll? Oh, wait a minute...he wasn't even there, was he? Hmm.

Third Year--Hagrid would have made tea for the Headmaster and the Headmaster's guests even without Harry, Hermione, and Ron showing up. In his condition he'd have broken the milk jug. It probably would have been Dumbledore who found Scabers and Wormtail would have gone haring away from the cottage to escape capture. Lupin, already up examining the Marauder's Map would have seen something very puzzling, Peter Pettigrew running around the Hogwarts lawn, being chased by Sirius Black. He would have seen the two of them enter the Whomping Willow and would have gone out to investigate. Even without the Invisibility Cloak, Snape could easily have surprised both Black and Lupin. He would have dragged them triumphantly out of the Whomping Willow passageway, only to be confronted by two horrible things--He'd be facing a hungry transformed werewolf (lots of luck Severus) and..what was that other thing?...Oh Yeah. A hundred starving Dementors. Poor Professor Snape. He had such a promising career.

Fourth Year--Snape's office stores were useful again, but there's two ways of looking at this. Yes, the gillyweed helped Harry in the Second Task, but it also furthered Lord Voldemort's plan. And Harry definitely does not owe Snape thanks for vital provisions which he wouldn't have given him if asked ("Teachers aren't allowed to interfere in the Triwizard Tournament, Potter."

Most of the time that Snape catches Harry and pals out of bounds he is perfectly right to punish them. Occassionally, however, he has been known to invent rules, simply for the purpose of deducting points from Gryffindor (penalizing Harry for carrying a library book around the grounds), and has been lenient to the point of laughability with Malfoy for offenses equal to, if not greater than the ones that Harry commits. Malfoy is chronically late to his class (occassionally ridiculously so) and is never punished for it. He received no punishment for attacking Harry and injuring Hermione while Harry and Ron received 50 points of demerits (25 apiece) and a detention cleaning the classroom for the same incident, even though Malfoy instigated it. Snape also refused to even acknowledge that Hermione had been a victim while immediately sending Goyle to the hospital wing "I see no difference." Also, in CoS, Snape "reccommended" that Harry be punished simply for witnessing the aftermath of the attack on Mrs. Norris and the punishment he suggested was designed only to give Slytherin a Quidditch advantage. Plus, Harry had an iron-clad alibi for the time of the actual attack.

So, as I said, they're square. Snape does not owe Harry anything, Harry does not owe Snape anything. Though Snape might take a moment to thank Harry at some point for saving him from having his soul sucked out through his mouth.

I dont think he owes him anything, because Snape was repaying James Potter for saving his life ... therefore his act was not out of heroism, or caring but about repaying the debt

Hi
and Snapey didn´t owe James anything, because it wasn´t his mistake Sirius acted like a fool. James found out his best friend did something completely wrong. So I don´t buy Severus owed James anything. And why must someone repay a dead person? Why his/her children? I think James wasn´t motivated this way. Snapey neither ! I think he helped Harry because he is his teacher and because it is clear an adult person helps a kid.

This repaying system is sick, isn´t it? If I save someones life it is something I do of my own motivation, and I don´t expect from the saved person he/she must repaying me anything.

That's actually a really good point. A good person will do something good because it is good not because it'll somehow help them in the future.

I think Harry definitely owes him something...and they should realize the potential in their friendship (or not being enemies at least)...
Snape will probably die sooner or later, together with many other characters, now that voldie's back

Ladyofthepensieve--And that's how both James and Harry have acted. They saved lives because it was the right thing to do. And Dumbledore isn't condoning the system, he's just saying the bond exists.