The Power of Peter Pettigrew

Peter Pettigrew is the odd man out in the Marauders: he is seemingly neither as brilliant nor as talented as his three friends. In a moment of exceptional weakness he sold his friends out to Voldemort and framed another for his own murder and the murder of twelve others. There are usually two schools of thought about Pettigrew: the first is that he was a weak, pathetic little thing who sought to be protected by powerful wizards because he was completely incapable of doing anything for himself; the second is that there is a lot more to Peter than we realize and that there is a hidden strength there that often goes unnoticed, even by his former best friends.

It's that hidden strength, that hidden power, that I want to discuss in this thread. (For extra reading, there are also these threads: In Defense of Peter Pettigrew (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=14317), Pettigrew not a traitor? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=31589) and Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=24298)) I think there is definitely more to Peter Pettigrew than meets the eye: he is much more talented than we first thought, but it's his own weak character and lack of moral fortitude that completely mask this talent.

There are instances where we cannot deny his strength and cunning. Actually, I'm surprised he wasn't sorted into Slytherin.
He killed twelve muggles and left a huge crater in the ground with one single spell. This indicates a great deal of magical power beyond anything he ever showed at any other time in his life. He hid his gift well.
He framed one of his best friends for not only the murder of those twelve muggles, but also for his own faked death! This suggests an eerily crafty ability to concoct an elaborate plan for murder and get away with it.
He passed information (or so we assume) from the Order to Voldemort for an entire year without being caught. His guilt wasn't known until twelve years later. For someone who is weak and pathetitc, it must have taken a great deal of strength not to reveal his true fidelities.
He stayed trasnfigured as a rat for twelve years. I cannot imagine the strength needed to resist turning back into human form, even just for five minutes.
As we know, what masked Pettigrew's underlying strength was his overwhelming outward sense of weakness. This is the vision everyone around him picked up on. Teachers, friends, pub owners, it doesn't matter: they all saw him as a little runt of a boy, chasing after his more popular, more talented, even more good looking friends. But I wonder if at some point he started to use this to his own advantage. We see him try to weasle out of capture by appealing to Harry's, Ron's, and Hermione's sympathies by playing the "I'm just a poor fool, you've got the wrong idea about me!" card.

I've been trying to forumlate theories as to how Pettigrew became Voldemort's lackey and yet was able to simultaneously carry out the weak and pathetic act / reality while creating cunning plans to sell out and frame his friends. Pettigrew's true strength is using his weakness (consciously or not) as part of his plans.

Like I said, I've got theories (well, one, and parts of it are farfetched), but I thought I'd put out the character sketch first and see what people think of Pettigrew's hidden power.

I cannot imagine the strength needed to resist turning back into human form, even just for five minutes.

Love your theory, but there is no canon that Peter did not resist the urge to return to human form. He was left in the dorm a great deal of time while the boys were in classes or the Great Hall which left him plenty of chances for "five minutes" of nosing through the boys' things (hard to open trunks and turn pages as a rat). No canon, of course, that he did so, either.

Love your theory, but there is no canon that Peter did not resist the urge to return to human form. He was left in the dorm a great deal of time while the boys were in classes or the Great Hall which left him plenty of chances for "five minutes" of nosing through the boys' things (hard to open trunks and turn pages as a rat). No canon, of course, that he did so, either.

He was in his human form in Albania when he met Bertha Jorkins. I don't think he spent the entire time as a rat -- only when there was a chance he could be seen.

Love your theory, but there is no canon that Peter did not resist the urge to return to human form. He was left in the dorm a great deal of time while the boys were in classes or the Great Hall which left him plenty of chances for "five minutes" of nosing through the boys' things (hard to open trunks and turn pages as a rat). No canon, of course, that he did so, either.Yeah, that was something I thought about. I can see him going missing at The Burrow for a few days just so he could sneak off and transform. Of course, that would be a lot more dangerous to do at Hogwarts: you never know who's going to randomly walk into the dorm room! But I like the idea of Peter sneaking through everyone's trunks; that's hilarious.

He was in his human form in Albania when he met Bertha Jorkins. I don't think he spent the entire time as a rat -- only when there was a chance he could be seen.We were referring more to everything up to and including PoA; by the time he meets Bertha Jorkins he's already been "outed" as a rat. Granted, he does have to keep the rat formation a lot just in case someone sees him and says "Hey, aren't you supposed to be dead?"

So are you indicating that Wormtail might be a lot more powerful than it seems.. he might be playing Voldy this whole time... He'll wait for Voldy tobe killed.. then he will kill Harry.. and rule the world.. *evil laugh*

We were referring more to everything up to and including PoA; by the time he meets Bertha Jorkins he's already been "outed" as a rat. Granted, he does have to keep the rat formation a lot just in case someone sees him and says "Hey, aren't you supposed to be dead?"

Sorry. My bad. :blush:
I had assumed that once the kids "outed" him, he had even more reason to remain as a rat, because now people would know he's not dead and would be looking for him.

Wow, I really liked the way you put together the straight forward facts! :agree:

By the way, was he even mentioned in the fifth book? I don't recall any major parts he played in the plot. It depends on whether or not he will play a big role in the sixth book when he decides to unleash his 'conserved powers', I think there could be a possible spot in the plot for him. If not, I think he will eventually fade away as one of the background characters.

I had assumed that once the kids "outed" him, he had even more reason to remain as a rat, because now people would know he's not dead and would be looking for him.Not really though. The only "proof" they have is the word of three thirteen year old wizards, and as Dumbledore says, that will convince few people other than himself. The only people Pettigrew was "outed" to were the kids, Sirius, Lupin, Dumbledore, Snape, and Fudge (I think that's everyone). Fudge, like he is regarding everything else about Voldemort, was in denial and didn't believe Sirius' story and neither did Snape. Like I said, obviously he has to avoid running into people, especially in Britain, so that they don't question why he's not dead. But once he's in mainland Europe, he should be okay to walk around as regular Peter Pettigrew. Of those who knew, no one would be actively searching for Peter, especially since there are millions of rats in the world.

By the way, was he even mentioned in the fifth book? I don't recall any major parts he played in the plot. It depends on whether or not he will play a big role in the sixth book, when he decides to unleash his 'conserved powers' in the next book, I think there could be a possible spot in the plot for him. If not, I think he will eventually fade away as one of the background characters.He was mentioned only in the Pensieve scenes I think; I don't really recall hearing about him any other time. I've wondered if he was doing anything "important" during OotP that would be relevant in Book 6, but since on JKR's FAQ poll one of the options was "Where was Wormtail during OotP?" I didn't think the answer would be groundbreaking or else why would she open herself up to the possibility of answering it. :huh:

I want to know why Fred and George didn't notice on the Marauders' Map that some bloke named Peter Pettigrew was sleeping in Ron's ... :whistle: ... dorm. :D

Also, I don't think we're sure about Pettigrew being sorted into Gryffindor. In the interview where JKR was asked if all the Marauders were in Gryffindor, Lupin was mentioned twice and Pettigrew not at all. But why would they hang around with him if he didn't live in the same dorm? Of course, the suggestion is that they didn't so much hang around with him as he followed them everywhere. When they had a use for him, he could paralyse the whomping willow, he was probably more accepted.

We know from Gilderoy Lockhart that some wizards may only be really good at one charm. Gilderoy's special talent was the obliviate. Is it possible that Peter had a specialty or two, a couple of spells he was really good at?

Or does Wormtail only appear hopeless as a wizard because of the company he kept? Sirius and James were brilliant students and Lupin studiously kept up with them. Wormtail might well have been at least average, and still appeared lacking in the company he kept.

On the other hand, both Voldemort and McGonagall seem to have a poor opinion of his abilities.

And where was he was Sirius sent Snape down and tunnel and James hauled him back out again?

We know from Gilderoy Lockhart that some wizards may only be really good at one charm. Gilderoy's special talent was the obliviate. Is it possible that Peter had a specialty or two, a couple of spells he was really good at? I wonder how one comes to specialize as a young man in a spell that can kill twelve people in one blow? :eyebrows: Seriously though, Pettigrew could easily have been a specialist. There's that saying "jack of all trades, master of none" in which case Pettigrew would have been the opposite: master of one trade, jack of none (ha, if that makes sense).

Or does Wormtail only appear hopeless as a wizard because of the company he kept? Sirius and James were brilliant students and Lupin studiously kept up with them. Wormtail might well have been at least average, and still appeared lacking in the company he kept.

On the other hand, both Voldemort and McGonagall seem to have a poor opinion of his abilities.I never thought about that! I've often heard the joke "If you want to be good looking, have ugly friends" and that could precisely be the problem. It's all a matter of perspective. However, when both the Dark Lord and one of your professors seem to think you're fairly incapable, then we have to wonder. Although Neville (I hate comparing him to Peter, but I'll have to here) seems incompetent in a lot of classes, yet in the DA is turning out quite nicely, skill-wise. The same could be said of Pettigrew: he learned how to be an animagus, which I forgot to mention as one of his "powerful wizard skills", a skill that is not easy to achieve even for the most trained and talented wizard. Yes, he did have a lot of help from Sirius and James, and yes his animagus is decidedly less impressive than theirs, but he still managed to do it and that's quite a feat in and of itself.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I always assumed that Peter's animagus form was a byproduct of his patheticness, sort of like "Oh, he's such a wimp, he's so weak, of course he'll turn into a rat, he can't manage anything larger or better" but once again now I'm thinking perhaps it was part of the plan to play up his biggest strength: his weaknesses. Maybe he consciously chose the rat to divert attention from himself, to downplay his talents.

There are usually two schools of thought about Pettigrew: the first is that he was a weak, pathetic little thing who sought to be protected by powerful wizards because he was completely incapable of doing anything for himself; the second is that there is a lot more to Peter than we realize and that there is a hidden strength there that often goes unnoticed, even by his former best friends.


Great thread!
Pettigrew intrigues me a lot. I agree with all you said, obviously he is anything but an incapable weakling.

The second school of thought actually can be divided into many sub-schools. Where did that hidden strength come from?

Speaking of magic: 1)Maybe Peter always was capable enough for an above-average wizard, it is just his powers paled in comparison to Potter and Black? (Edit as I type: just as Whiz said.)
2)Or maybe his abilities were of a special sort, maybe he was so much more gifted at Dark Arts than at "normal" subjects taught at Hogwarts, due to the content of his character?
3)Or even maybe he acquired his powers only when he went to the Dark Side? Dark Arts must be so attractive because they give people something ...power? ...more power?

Speaking of general intelligence: Peter does not seem as academically apt as the rest of MWPP, or as witty as, say, Sirius, and he definitely has confidence issues. However, on a second thought, who said these are issues? Maybe he is perfectly content with his secondary role? If yes, then why? What is inside this man's head?

An exchange in SWM puzzles me. Sirius says rather in rather cruel manner: "... or Wormtail wets himself with exitement". And Peter does not respond at all. No comeback line, no mad look, no "Go **** youself!", nothing. I am sure nothing of this sort would have damaged their friendship, not among guys. Peter just shys away. He is just too obviously weak there.

This exchange cannot really be descriptive of Marauders' relationships with Wormtail. After all, he was in on all their secrets. He did attempt a potentially dangerous Animagus transformation with them. Not to mention, running around a werewolf (who knows what is on his mind? :scared: ) when you are just a small rat must be a little... life-threatening. I guess this explains why he was in Gryffindor. He had his measure of bravery.

An unsubstantiated idea is floating around the boards (sorry, I don't remember whose to credit properly) that Peter was very people-smart and manipulative person, and maybe even responsible for distrust between James&Sirius and Lupin before Potters' deaths. It seems definitely in character. He would be able to stay in the shadow, make "big friends" look after him, and make sure he is liked. It would not take too much to be liked by generally decent people: you just pretend you are faithful to them... D*** rat.

Playing his weaknesses as strengths is a brilliant idea, and he definitely does it. The question still is, when did he realized this is the way to go? In school? When LV was taking over? When he changed sides? Did he go rotten because Voldemort put pressure on him? Or was he always rotten?


Animagus form:
Grrliz, I don't think you can dismiss his animagus form as unimpressive. It is less gorgeous, sure, but it says nothing about magical abilities per se. Rats are intelligent enough, maybe not as intelligent as dogs, but no less than deer. Rats are not weak. They are capable of many things when their survival is at stake. This is what Peter does best - he is fighting for his own survival at any cost. Brave, but only for his own sake. Rat. :evil:

I've been trying to forumlate theories as to how Pettigrew became Voldemort's lackey and yet was able to simultaneously carry out the weak and pathetic act / reality while creating cunning plans to sell out and frame his friends. Pettigrew's true strength is using his weakness (consciously or not) as part of his plans.
Well I agree that Pettigrew deffinitely used his weakness to his advantage because he was able to use everyones perceptions of himself to work for him. Pettigrew was though of as some little weakling but he someohow managed to screw all the Marauders. Pettigrew for all his weakness managed to think up a master scheme to keep himself alive, killed 12 people with one curse, concoted a rebirthing potion for Voldemort and became the right hand of Voldemort and lived to be rewarded. You can't be some weak wizard to do all those things. In short Pettigrew is more capable than we give him credit for.

I love PoA in 15 minutes. Hilarious! I'll look for a link.

She's arranged it so that you can only read PoA in 15 Minutes if you've friended the community in LiveJournal (if that's what you're talking about, otherwise ignore me :)).

If you're looking for it I have it on my lj also.......so she's not the only one who has it!

Animagus form:
Grrliz, I don't think you can dismiss his animagus form as unimpressive. It is less gorgeous, sure, but it says nothing about magical abilities per se. Rats are intelligent enough, maybe not as intelligent as dogs, but no less than deer. Rats are not weak. They are capable of many things when their survival is at stake. This is what Peter does best - he is fighting for his own survival at any cost. Brave, but only for his own sake. Rat.

The webpage won't open for me at the moment, but in dreams, a rat is a symbol of betrayal.

I'm google searching on Rat's right now and i've just discovered that to be born in the year of the rat, one of the years is January 28, 1960 - February 14, 1961- the marauders were all born around this time- including Peter. And traits of the rat include:

Rats tend to be creative and can adapt to almost any situation. While bright and sociable, Rats can also be ostentatious and ambitious in a negative way. They have a reputation for using their friends for their own means they casting them aside when finished.

Just fishing around :p

The second school of thought actually can be divided into many sub-schools. Where did that hidden strength come from?

Speaking of magic: 1)Maybe Peter always was capable enough for an above-average wizard, it is just his powers paled in comparison to Potter and Black? (Edit as I type: just as Whiz said.)
2)Or maybe his abilities were of a special sort, maybe he was so much more gifted at Dark Arts than at "normal" subjects taught at Hogwarts, due to the content of his character?
3)Or even maybe he acquired his powers only when he went to the Dark Side? Dark Arts must be so attractive because they give people something ...power? ...more power? I definitely agree about "subschools of thought" regarding Pettigrew and his power. Possibility #3 really intrigues me a lot. Apparently he had been in league with Voldemort for an entire year before the Potters were killed, and this obviously gives him a lot of time to learn at least one important bit of dark magic (specifically, the ability to kill twelve people with one curse).

We always talk about the Dark Side's main drawing feature being the offering of power ("there is only power and those to weak to seek it"), (ROWR! Gary Oldman was just on TV!! </digression). But what form does this power take? We see a lot of evil wizards simply lording power over others in the form of sheer dominance, the way Malfoy controls his gang of Slytherins. This was always my initial thought of what kind of power Voldemort offered his followers: under the new regime each Death Eater would be able to pillage and otherwise control their choice of towns or people, etc. How would Voldemort bestow magical power upon his adherents? I don't think you can just give someone magical powers (this idea would negate the concepts of squibs for the most part) and yet I can't imagine Voldemort sitting around, teaching Dark Arts classes. Maybe if you join the Death Eaters you can take a correspondance course through Durmstrang? :) The other way of giving people magical power, of course, is the same way it worked with Harry, but the details of that are still pretty sketchy.

Speaking of general intelligence: Peter does not seem as academically apt as the rest of MWPP, or as witty as, say, Sirius, and he definitely has confidence issues. However, on a second thought, who said these are issues? Maybe he is perfectly content with his secondary role? If yes, then why? What is inside this man's head?That's what I'm thinking. I hate comparing myself to Pettigrew (I mean seriously), but I myself hate being the centre of attention. I'd much rather stand back and let someone else have everyone focus on that person. That secondary position leaves Pettigrew with a lot of time for observation and thinking. It could be his second fiddle role that helped him develop his cunning, wondering how he might play his friends' strengths off one another. That's exactly what happened in the end: he played James' extreme trust in Sirius off of Sirius exceptional confidence in his own intelligence (thinking he could outwith the Dark Lord!) to his own advantage.

An unsubstantiated idea is floating around the boards (sorry, I don't remember whose to credit properly) that Peter was very people-smart and manipulative person, and maybe even responsible for distrust between James&Sirius and Lupin before Potters' deaths. It seems definitely in character. He would be able to stay in the shadow, make "big friends" look after him, and make sure he is liked. It would not take too much to be liked by generally decent people: you just pretend you are faithful to them... D*** rat.I myself adhere to that theory (obviously, I suppose) and I think that's what I've been trying to say, only I'm not as articulate. I keep saying that his greatest strength is his "weakness", but I think what I mean is that his strength is manipulating people into believing his slightly self-imposed weaknesses. I think. I don't know if I'm making sense any more. :huh:

Playing his weaknesses as strengths is a brilliant idea, and he definitely does it. The question still is, when did he realized this is the way to go? In school? When LV was taking over? When he changed sides? Did he go rotten because Voldemort put pressure on him? Or was he always rotten?I know, there has to be some sort of turning point and we have yet to find it. It's irritating the hell out of me, to be completely honest. Every time I have one theory, I remember that my other thoughts on Pettigrew totally contradict it. It's a vicious cycle!

I don't think you can dismiss his animagus form as unimpressive. It is less gorgeous, sure, but it says nothing about magical abilities per se. Rats are intelligent enough, maybe not as intelligent as dogs, but no less than deer. Rats are not weak. They are capable of many things when their survival is at stake. This is what Peter does best - he is fighting for his own survival at any cost. Brave, but only for his own sake. Rat. :evil:Good point, I hadn't thought much about the character traits of the rat when thinking about the animagus. I think, though, that it still plays into the "weakness as strength" theme in his life in that in comparison to James and Sirius, it's less impressive. A rat, it seems, would be secondary to a stag or bear-sized dog. It's Pettigrew choosing the less flashy, less attention getting creature, the opposite of what his friends would do.

(Just for reference, I think rats in JKR's world do have magical capabilities; when Ron brings Scabbers to the Magical Menagerie at the start of PoA because he isn't doing to well, the witch there asks him if Scabbers has ever shown any magical abilities before. I assume that means that some, if not most, rats can be magical creatures, although Scabbers certainly wasn't. Which is funny, because even Scabbers inactivity seems to fit in with Pettigrew's policy of flying below the radar by being as unassuming as possible.)

I'm google searching on Rat's right now and i've just discovered that to be born in the year of the rat, one of the years is January 28, 1960 - February 14, 1961- the marauders were all born around this time- including Peter. And traits of the rat include:That's really neat!


::about the PoA in 15 Minutes (which kills me dead every time I read it), it was friends only so she could avoid plagiarism (she's publishing a book of Movies in 15 Minutes apparently!), but obviously you can find it else where from before she instituted that policy. It's definitly her funniest one. :)

Great thread grrliz and great post. I do agree that Pettigrew does have an uncanny set of hidden strengths, and I like the sub-schools of thought about Peter that Arithmancy posted. I also like the idea that Peter's magical abilities paled in comparison to the other Marauders' skills. I believe this was probably true, but in any case, I suspect Peter's magical abilities were still a hair shy of average.He killed twelve muggles and left a huge crater in the ground with one single spell. This indicates a great deal of magical power beyond anything he ever showed at any other time in his life. He hid his gift well.I wonder if he learned this spell while he was in Voldemort's service, which would fit under #3 of Arithmancy's suggestions about Peter. Since it was so powerful that it blew up half the street and killed everyone around him, it doesn't seem like something that could be classified as everyday magic that most wizards know how to perform. If it is the case that Peter learned a few spells from the Death Eaters, I'd warrant Peter has a few more such spells in his arsenal that have remained hidden from everyone.He framed one of his best friends for not only the murder of those twelve muggles, but also for his own faked death! This suggests an eerily crafty ability to concoct an elaborate plan for murder and get away with it.It is evident that the marauders underestimated Peter in more ways than one. Peter's ability to create these plans and then carry them out is indicative of his cunning and a certain intelligence. This is indeed where Peter shows several Slytherin qualities. However, I believe that the reason why Peter is in Gryffindor will become evident in the last book. The fact that he owes Harry a life debt has got to count for something.He passed information (or so we assume) from the Order to Voldemort for an entire year without being caught. His guilt wasn't known until twelve years later. For someone who is weak and pathetitc, it must have taken a great deal of strength not to reveal his true fidelities.I agree with whomever mentioned that Peter was able to keep his cover for so long among his friends was because he was likely sewing the seeds of distrust among them. Peter's tactic for taking suspicion off of himself and perhaps placing it on Remus, was designed to play upon their doubts and fears. I agree that Pettigrew's "innocent bumbling fool" card worked very well considering the fact that Sirius changed Secret-Keepers for this very reason. He believed it would be the perfect bluff to use someone so "weak and talentless"

However, I believe that there must have been days where Peter questioned if he really wanted to go through with this. I suspect he was coerced into doing much of what he did for Voldemort, but I also believe possible feelings of inferiority and jealosy among his powerful, clever friends must have had a great influence on him as well. I imagine the Death Eaters played upon his desire for powerful friends who could protect him and give him some power of his own.

Another of Peter's hidden strengths I'd like to add to grrliz's list is his readiness to cause himself bodily harm. While framing Sirius for his murder, Peter cut off his own finger before transforming into a rat. In PoA, Lupin says, "he cut it off himself?". This kind of indicates that he was surprised Peter was capable of doing that to himself. Also, in GoF, Pettigrew offed his whole hand. These two incidents would seem to indicate a higher than average tolerance level for pain.I myself adhere to that theory (obviously, I suppose) and I think that's what I've been trying to say, only I'm not as articulate. I keep saying that his greatest strength is his "weakness", but I think what I mean is that his strength is manipulating people into believing his slightly self-imposed weaknesses. I think. I don't know if I'm making sense any more.This makes perfect sense. I think you are in essence saying that Peter's strength is his ability to play dumb and pretend that he is inept so that when he turns around and does something intelligent or performs a powerful spell, people are totally shocked. He also does have a knack for manipulating people with his simulated weakness, as you say. I hope I interpreted what you wrote correctly. :)

It is evident that the marauders underestimated Peter in more ways than one. Peter's ability to create these plans and then carry them out is indicative of his cunning and a certain intelligence. This is indeed where Peter shows several Slytherin qualities. However, I believe that the reason why Peter is in Gryffindor will become evident in the last book. The fact that he owes Harry a life debt has got to count for something.I keep forgetting about that pesky life debt! One of the things about the books that I like is we often question why certain people were sorted into the house they ended up in; Harry himself has a huge identity crisis about this in CoS. But in the end, JKR always demonstrates just why each student ends up in the appropriate house. Half the time we think Hermione should be in Ravenclaw with a brain like hers, but right from the end of Philosopher's Stone she tells us that she values friendship and bravery ahead of books and cleverness. So why was Pettigrew in Gryffindor (although like whizbang said, the quote that comes from lists Lupin twice and ignores Pettigew, so it's not really cannon)? I think you're right, that life debt will definitely come in handy in showing us why.

However, I believe that there must have been days where Peter questioned if he really wanted to go through with this. I suspect he was coerced into doing much of what he did for Voldemort, but I also believe possible feelings of inferiority and jealosy among his powerful, clever friends must have had a great influence on him as well. I imagine the Death Eaters played upon his desire for powerful friends who could protect him and give him some power of his own.I actually have a theory (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1257391&postcount=15) that the spy in the Order wasn't initially Pettigrew, it was actually Benjy Fenwick. The theory still needs a lot of fleshing out, but one of the really interesting things about Fenwick is that when he was "killed" they only found "bits" of him. Well, they only found a "bit" of Pettigrew and he definitely wasn't dead. I figure Fenwick was the spy and picked Pettigrew out of everyone else to coerce into joining Voldemort. Because you're right, RemusLupinFan, no matter how cunning and manipulative Pettigrew may have been, there were bound to be feelings of jealousy and inferority. These are feelings that Voldemort and his followers are likely to pick up on and exploit for their own use. Voldemort is notorious for "spreading discord", and I keep imagining Fenwick whispering into Pettigrew's ear "Your friends are so much more talented than you are, don't you wish you could do something to be as skilled as them?" Over and over, subtly suggesting Pettigrew take action to improve himself, gaining his trust, and eventually gaining power over him before subtly suggesting he join Voldemort's side. The great thing about Fenwick's "death" is that if he did indeed fake his death, he gives Pettigrew an almost failsafe way to fake one's own death and not have anyone question it. Once Fenwick was "dead" it was up to Pettigrew to continue spreading discord amongst everyone, pitting Sirius and Lupin against eachother, making everyone suspicious of everyone except himself. There are holes in this theory of course, but that's because I haven't totally thought it all out.

Another of Peter's hidden strengths I'd like to add to grrliz's list is his readiness to cause himself bodily harm. While framing Sirius for his murder, Peter cut off his own finger before transforming into a rat. In PoA, Lupin says, "he cut it off himself?". This kind of indicates that he was surprised Peter was capable of doing that to himself. Also, in GoF, Pettigrew offed his whole hand. These two incidents would seem to indicate a higher than average tolerance level for pain.This is brilliant! Ha, Pettigrew was always willing to give Voldemort a hand (har har) to conquer the world! Seriously though, that high threshold of pain is interesting. I wonder if Voldemort ever tried to use the Cruciatus Curse on Pettigrew (for what reason, who knows) and found that it did not have the strong effect he'd hoped it would. The ability to resist pain is a really valuable trait for someone, especially someone on Voldemort's side, to have during a war.

anybody can resist pain if they have the means to. peter doesnt want to die, so he keeps quiet

I posted this about Pettigrew on page 6 of the HP characters and astrology (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=17499) thread, as a character analysis in order to figure out prominent signs in his chart. You may dismiss the purely astrological information as you wish, but the character analysis as such may fit here too. :)

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Peter... now he's intriguing. I don't think that "rat b******" suffices to pin him down. :p Let's see... He comes across as a tag-along, joining in with whatever James, Sirius, and Remus do, laughing at whatever joke James is cracking, even if he bears the brunt of it. Similar attitude to Voldemort later. (Reminds me a bit of Percy's attitude to Fudge. Which aspect was that?) Maybe he needs friends and support as much as Lupin does (11th house?), and he seems to have serious issues with self-esteem and being respected (Saturn in 1st house, and/or Venus in Pisces?). He's able to be secretive and deceiving. (Scorpio/8th house stuff maybe, or 12th house of hidden stuff? He positively clings to his sorry life in PoA - but then again, as a DE he must have a thing for the Dark Arts, and he must have known what his betrayal of the Potters entailed for their lives.) His looks (small, mousy face) sound a bit like a mix of Cancer and Gemini, but I'm not sure if any of them could be his rising sign.

What intrigues me most is the huge gap between his appearance to the Marauders and his true self below, which he seems to have kept well hidden. The other Marauders seemed to think he was just stupid because he needed their help to manage his animagus stuff - they even mocked him for it. (I don't think he liked his "friends" any better for it, even though he doesn't seem to have complained openly.) But he must have kept his eyes and ears open all the time and used the information he got for his own advantage. Not your school type of intelligence, rather the sly and street-smart kind, and if he managed to be unsuspected for so long, he must be able to keep his head down and his mouth shut. Everyone tends to underestimate him, and he encourages that with his "I'm-so-small-and-helpless"-act, but he's more than he seems at first glance - James and Sirius found that out when it was too late. Deception again, but which sign is the sign of understatement and remaining unnoticed? Capricorn maybe, the "grey eminence" behind the throne? :shrug:

He's determined too (finding Voldemort and helping him be reborn), and patient if needs be - 12 years as a rat, that's quite some endurance. :wow: I wonder if it's possible to nudge his Jupiter into persevering Capricorn too, but maybe Saturn is enough. Quick thinker (in PoA he instantly caught his chance to flee when it suddenly presented itself, and he seems to have a thing for snatching wands), and deceptive sweet-talk too. Mercury in Libra, Sagittarius or Gemini?

Where did he get the power from to blast a street apart when Sirius confronted him? Mars in Cancer maybe? I could see him getting quite emotional when Sirius accused him - big Sirius who used to look down on him and never took him seriously, after Peter had taken out his hatred on the other "friend" who treated him with about the same condescension and mockery. This wound must have been festering for long, until he was given the chance at last to get back at them. (Just conjecture of course, but I could see such a reasoning behind Peter's motives. You don't betray your friends out of the blue, and this IMO might be a possibility where Peter may have come from.)

As for his Moon, I'm not sure... he doesn't sound like a person who cares about his friends, but James and Sirius didn't treat him that kindly either in the Pensieve scene. He did whine for his life, but probably that was also just an act... Not a Water sign I feel. Gemini maybe? I wonder where his ideals are, apart from on the wrong side of the fence. :p And last not least, he's a Gryffindor, which is all too often overlooked. His courage could have shown in his decision to go and search Voldemort after PoA, even if he couldn't expect instant gratification (LV was still powerless) and probably even had to find out first where to search. (He did find him rather fast though... he sure has more intelligence than people like to admit.) And I feel that with his life-bond with Harry there's something Gryffindor yet to come from him. Is Uranus in Leo enough to pull that off? Somehow I doubt it, there must be more.

I don't put a lot of stock in astrology and horoscopes, especially for fictional characters, but I nevertheless really do enjoy analyzing them this way. One thing I notice is that even if star signs and what have you have no impact on one's actions, they still manage to draw people in to key aspects of personality. It helps focus things.
Not your school type of intelligence, rather the sly and street-smart kind, and if he managed to be unsuspected for so long, he must be able to keep his head down and his mouth shut. Everyone tends to underestimate him, and he encourages that with his "I'm-so-small-and-helpless"-act, but he's more than he seems at first glance - James and Sirius found that out when it was too late. Deception again, but which sign is the sign of understatement and remaining unnoticed? Capricorn maybe, the "grey eminence" behind the throne? :shrug:I never thought of Pettigrew as being "street-smart", but that is a great observation! It suggests an aloof awareness of the things around him: he's taking in a lot of information, flying under the radar, not getting noticed.

Where did he get the power from to blast a street apart when Sirius confronted him? Mars in Cancer maybe? I could see him getting quite emotional when Sirius accused him - big Sirius who used to look down on him and never took him seriously, after Peter had taken out his hatred on the other "friend" who treated him with about the same condescension and mockery. This wound must have been festering for long, until he was given the chance at last to get back at them. (Just conjecture of course, but I could see such a reasoning behind Peter's motives. You don't betray your friends out of the blue, and this IMO might be a possibility where Peter may have come from.)Another thing I haven't thought about much, the possibility that there was more than power that drew him to Voldemort, it was also the possibility of revenge on the people he thought were his friends but ultimately didn't think very much of his talents or abillities. What's the best way to show them up than to actually use your talents and abilities on them? It's hard to remember sometimes that even the baddies have feelings that might get hurt. :)

And last not least, he's a Gryffindor, which is all too often overlooked. His courage could have shown in his decision to go and search Voldemort after PoA, even if he couldn't expect instant gratification (LV was still powerless) and probably even had to find out first where to search. (He did find him rather fast though... he sure has more intelligence than people like to admit.)That's an intriguing idea: having the characteristic Gryffindor courage doesn't necessarily mean that you'll have the courage to do the right thing. It seems Pettigrew had all the courage in the world to do the wrong thing. To go against his friends, to hand them to Voldemort on a silver platter, to search out the powerless Dark Lord afterwards... it's not what James or Sirius or Lupin would do, but you can't deny the courage in doing those things.

I was rereading the opening chapter of Goblet of Fire last night and remembered that the one person who knew Peter Pettigrew "best" other than the other three Marauders is none other than Voldemort. Voldemort takes the same approach to Pettigrew that the Marauders took in that he also makes snide remarks about Pettigrews talents, dismissing and belittling him. One thing we've noticed so far is that Voldemort hasn't really lied about anything: what he says always seems to be the truth, even if it is terribly nasty and we don't want to hear it. Does Pettigrew's interaction with Voldemort go along with the "weakness as strength" vision we have for Peter? Does Peter play up his weakness is, or are his weaknesses to be taken at face value when confronted with the big scary bad guy that is Voldemort?

Voldemort gets off some pretty good lines about Pettigrew's apparent weaknesses and stupidity:"Your devotion is nothing more than cowardice.""I am no stronger, and a few days alone would be enough to rob me of the little health I have regained under your clumsy care.""... I am not asking you to do it alone. By that time, my faithful servant will have rejoined us --""Wormtail, I need somebody with brains, somebody whose loyalty has never wavered, and you, unfortunately, fulfill neither requirement." Zing!"A stroke of brilliance I would not have thought possible from you, Wormtail." Zing, again!

If Wormtail were playing along in the "poor dumb schmuck" role, he'd be grovelling and sputtering all over the place, making excuses, not taking responsibility, etc. which of course he does, in spades. But how much of this is due to actual fear of Voldemort and how much is due to Pettigrew trying to control the situation much more than is first evident, playing up on his weaknesses to get Voldemort to dismiss him, to think less of him, in order to later exact his revenge?

If Wormtail were playing along in the "poor dumb schmuck" role, he'd be grovelling and sputtering all over the place, making excuses, not taking responsibility, etc. which of course he does, in spades. But how much of this is due to actual fear of Voldemort and how much is due to Pettigrew trying to control the situation much more than is first evident, playing up on his weaknesses to get Voldemort to dismiss him, to think less of him, in order to later exact his revenge?Hmm, this is something to think about. From the evidence you've presented here, it seems as if Peter is playing a delicate balancing act between disguising what his true weaknesses are, and what he is pretending is a weakness of his. I think there are obvious dangers to Pettigrew acting as if he a dumb weakling because:

1) if he does it too much Voldemort could quite possibly see through his facade, and
2) Voldemort may decide Pettigrew's usefullness to him has come to an end, ie, he'll be disposed of.

However, I really do believe that Peter has true weaknesses that he wishes he did not have. For instance, I truly believe courage isn't one of Peter's fortes. Since I think his agreeing to join the Death Eaters in the first place had a lot to do with coersion and inability to stand up for himself and his supposed friends, I believe he really does follow many of Voldemort's orders out of fear and lack of courage. This is something that Peter probably wouldn't pretend not to have, since Voldemort makes numerous comments about Peter's cowardice and lack of "unwavering loyalty". To have Voldemort see that he is weak in this respect is straying into dangerous territory, considering how Voldemort punishes those who are too cowardly to return to him and follow him completely.

On the other hand, I definintely think Peter's apparent lack of smarts and magical talents are somewhat played up. We really have seen evidence of his cunning and ability to make viable plans and carry them out. We have also seen evidence of at least some out of the ordinary magical abilities: he is an Animagus, he blew apart half a street with a single curse. Furthermore, Peter's intelligence and spellwork would make more sense for him to keep hidden, because then he is able to surprise Voldemort with his singular "stroke of brilliance". Keeping these talents hidden is a way to get praise from Voldemort when he actually does let them out in the open. In essence what Voldemort is saying with some of his comments are "I'm impressed, who would have thought this fool was able to do that, when all we've seen from him so far are feeble attempts at magic, etc?".

I would have to look into that a tad more before I say an absolute yes or no on your theory, though what evewryone has said gives both sides very well. This is the most I can do unless youi want me to launch into a completely sytupid list of reasons why Wormtail is the best Marauder. So I shall stop before I do that.

Great theory! I think it is very possible that he is indeed stronger than we know but some part of me can't help but believe that it was all not HIS plans and instructions but rather he did all those things step by step because even though we all hate Voldemort but we know that he is quite intelligent (you got to admit it) because he has a lot of great, yet evil ideas. Like the shopkeeper in Olivander's wands said he was a great powerful wizard yet bad (or something along those lines). Yet it is very possible that Pettigrew learned alot when he joined Voldemort (some say Snape was behind it when he was a deatheater). So i'm not really sure which it is, but your theory is very possible.

Do you think there is anything to the cemetary scene in GoF that relates to this? What I've noticed:

When the DEs got in their circle, they all seemed to have "assigned seats." That is, as Voldemort walked around, he said things like "the LeStranges should be here" and "these six holes are the three DEs that died, one that fled, etc." It's not just random where people are standing, it's most likely the order they stood in during the first war.

Secondly, is there a heirarchy among DEs? I sense that Bella and Lucius were particularly important DEs. That Lucius held the Riddle diary and the LeStranges were trusted to go after Neville's parents is part of it. And notice that all the DEs save Wormtail, Bella and Lucius are called by their last names, as if those three stood out as being closer to Voldemort than the rest. And truly, only Wormtail gets a nickname -- that being the same as the one used by his "best friends" all through school. Hmmm.

Then finally -- notice the order in which Voldemort addresses his ring of DEs. Wormtail takes his spot in the ring, and Lucius is to his right, followed by the LeStranges. I've always associated the "next in charge" person to be to the right, making Wormtail superior in rank to Lucius (though he could be at the very bottom of the pecking order since it's a circle.) This all could imply that, from the beginning Wormtail has been a, if not the, major player in the DE ranks.

Knowledge of the Potter's location would hardly seem reason enough to stick Wormtail up at the top with Malfoy and the LeStranges. He must have shown not only strong loyalty, but talent that everyone but Voldemort seems to have underestimated. What about that comment "you know that I can disguise myself most effectively"? Just animagus -- or metamorphmagus perhaps? And how about the way he kills Cedric without blinking an eye, and whacks off his own hand? That doesn't seem like fear to me. Ambition more like it. He whacked off his hand because he was expecting to be rewarded for it, and he was.

Now, was the weakness part of the act? I don't know. I'm not good at all at the whole "name game" like some of you are, but "Pettigrew" reminds me of "petite" and "grew" -- as if he maybe he matured later (ala Neville) or maybe it was the power of dark arts that increased his abilities. Or maybe it's "petty - grew" that his resentment of his treatment by the other marauders grew until he decided to strike back. In either case, I think maybe he was hopeless early on, and the reputation stuck even as he got better at magic and nobody noticed.

When the DEs got in their circle, they all seemed to have "assigned seats." That is, as Voldemort walked around, he said things like "the LeStranges should be here" and "these six holes are the three DEs that died, one that fled, etc." It's not just random where people are standing, it's most likely the order they stood in during the first war.The "assigned seating" is something I never noticed before! I think that's a very interesting point. I -- erroneously -- assumed that when joining the circle, they would simply close ranks and stand shoulder to shoulder, instead of leaving gaps for both the fallen comrads and those still in Azkaban. Because Voldemort specifically does say "The Leastranges should stand here" (bolding mine), which indicates that they each have a place in the circle. Like the United Nations of Death Eaters. :)

Then finally -- notice the order in which Voldemort addresses his ring of DEs. Wormtail takes his spot in the ring, and Lucius is to his right, followed by the LeStranges. I've always associated the "next in charge" person to be to the right, making Wormtail superior in rank to Lucius (though he could be at the very bottom of the pecking order since it's a circle.) This all could imply that, from the beginning Wormtail has been a, if not the, major player in the DE ranks.Reminds me of the idea of having a "right hand man", no?

Knowledge of the Potter's location would hardly seem reason enough to stick Wormtail up at the top with Malfoy and the LeStranges. He must have shown not only strong loyalty, but talent that everyone but Voldemort seems to have underestimated. What about that comment "you know that I can disguise myself most effectively"? Just animagus -- or metamorphmagus perhaps? And how about the way he kills Cedric without blinking an eye, and whacks off his own hand? That doesn't seem like fear to me. Ambition more like it. He whacked off his hand because he was expecting to be rewarded for it, and he was.There's a weirdness about this scene. As I said in an earlier post, Voldemort gets off some pretty good lines about Pettigrew's weakness and stupidity, and Pettigrew plays up to it by doing a lot of sputtering as well. However, there are parts of this scene where it's almost as if the "true" Peter -- powerful Peter -- is shining through.

I've always thought the line "you know that I can disguise myself most effectively" was particularly odd: is he really reminding the Dark Lord of his abilities? Who actually questions Voldemort? That's pretty saucy of Pettigrew, I think. It seems to be a calculated risk to openly question Voldemort in that way. Yet Voldemort is neither angered or incensed by it. Curious. Again, with the hand, as you mentioned Blacks Beauty, he seemed pretty brave to openly cut off his own hand. It seems Voldemort overlooks Peter's moments of bravery and courage, much in the same way I am beginning to think the Marauders did as well.

Regarding his ability to kill Cedric without batting an eyelash, I've heard the theory in another thread where he only hesitates to kill those who mean something to him. He killed both Cedric and those 12 Muggles without thinking twice, but is much more reluctant to harm Harry or anyone relating to him. I'm sure there's an actual thread about this that explains it more articulately, but I haven't seen it.

I'm not good at all at the whole "name game" like some of you are, but "Pettigrew" reminds me of "petite" and "grew" -- as if he maybe he matured later (ala Neville) or maybe it was the power of dark arts that increased his abilities. Or maybe it's "petty - grew" that his resentment of his treatment by the other marauders grew until he decided to strike back. In either case, I think maybe he was hopeless early on, and the reputation stuck even as he got better at magic and nobody noticed.Those are actually some really interesting interpretations! There's a Canadian politican from Quebec called Pierre Pettigrew and I always laugh when I see his name in the paper. Anyway. I like both the ideas of "petite" (small) as well as "petty", they both put an interesting spin on his name.

Rats tend to be creative and can adapt to almost any situation. While bright and sociable, Rats can also be ostentatious and ambitious in a negative way. They have a reputation for using their friends for their own means they casting them aside when finished.

sort of sums up Wormtail don't you reckon....good work Dumbleedore...

I find Wormtail intriguing, and I think he will definately come into play in the future books, didn't DD say that he is bound to Harry b/c of what he did at the shrieking shack? I think Wormtail is more cunning than anyone has given him credit for, especially Voldermort. I think there will definately be a time when Voldermort wishes he hadn't 'disposed' of Wormtail sooner. Not that I am saying he is noble, or that he will make up for what he has done... I don't think he ever could, but I definately don't think we have seen the last of him, neither have we fully witnessed his abilities.

I do think Peter's animagus form says a lot about him. Remember, JKR said something to the effect that you can't choose your form, it's just an extension of your personality. But if she simply needed him to be small enough to open the whomping willow, she could have made him a ferret, a chipmunk, a hedgehog... but no, he is a rat. Filthy stinking vermin. But survivalist kind of vermin. Nice quote, btw Dumbleedore. It does fit him well.I definately don't think we have seen the last of him, neither have we fully witnessed his abilities.Well, speaking of that...I have posted this elsewhere, but apparently not here. Remember this quote again: "you know that I can disguise myself most effectively"What if Peter is a metamorphmagus? I have a feeling the real reason Tonks is a metamorphmagus is just so we won't think it's contrived when another one shows up (like she did with McGonagall). Keep in mind, being a metamorphmagus is going to be no help to Peter in running around with the marauders; he would still need to figure out the animagus transfiguration to do that, so just because he is an animagus doesn't mean he can't be a metamorphmagus too. They are helpful in different ways.

If he was a metamorphmagus, you might ask why people weren't more impressed with that skill, or why he didn't show off more. Well, maybe it's not considered impressive by people like McGonagall because it's not so much a skill as a genetic trait (ie, people are more impressed by someone who can dunk a basketball than someone who is just really tall); or maybe he never did it in school because it is a talent that does not develop until later in life or you have to be trained to be able to control it; maybe he did do it in school but Sirius/Lupin just never brought it up in conversation; or maybe it is like grrliz theory, that it is part of his act, playing the pathetic loser but meanwhile having this really cool secret talent that nobody knows about.

I can say 100% that we'll see more metamorphomagi, but i doubt that Pettigrew is one, would be too much for one person.

Remember this quote again: What if Peter is a metamorphmagus? I have a feeling the real reason Tonks is a metamorphmagus is just so we won't think it's contrived when another one shows up (like she did with McGonagall). Keep in mind, being a metamorphmagus is going to be no help to Peter in running around with the marauders; he would still need to figure out the animagus transfiguration to do that, so just because he is an animagus doesn't mean he can't be a metamorphmagus too. They are helpful in different ways.There are really interesting things we see once, forget about, and then they pop-up again, much to everyone's surprise. It's one of the main staples in most of the theories on this board, of course, and it's type of thing that spawned the whole Mark Evans debate. But, I think it makes a lot more sense in this context than in a lot of others. We see McGonagall transfiguring in PS/SS, but it's only introduced to the students in PoA after their first divination class. And, of course, we learn by the end of the book that there are other significant animagi in the story. Reeta Skeeter turns out to be one as well, and her role has been significant.

Another situation like that is with the Polyjuice Potion. Harry and Ron used it to interrogate Malfoy as Crabbe and Goyle, but we don't actually learn to much from that scene other than that Malfoy's not the heir of Slytherin, but he was too obvious of a choice anyway to be serious. But then in GoF poor old Moody gets polyjuiced for nine months and we see it take on a much greater significance.

So Metamorphmagi. Yes, it helps Tonks in her Auror duties, but that's not all that interesting in and of itself. So far it's been used to amuse Hermione and Ginny at the dinner table and to disguise Tonks for various Order purposes. Whoopee. There has to be something more to it, and so far this is the best theory I've heard about it (actually, it's the only theory I've heard about it!).

My only question is: can a metamorphmagus only change into other human forms? Because if Peter is a metamorphmagus, the only thing preventing him from using his metamorph capabilities is the inability to change into an animal. Tonks wasn't too specific about this, only that being a metamorphmagus meant you could change your appearance at will; she never said wherther that included animal appearances.

If he was a metamorphmagus, you might ask why people weren't more impressed with that skill, or why he didn't show off more. Heh, I was going to ask that, but I'm glad youv'e already come up with arguments for it. :)

Well, maybe it's not considered impressive by people like McGonagall because it's not so much a skill as a genetic trait (ie, people are more impressed by someone who can dunk a basketball than someone who is just really tall);As someone who is tall and not good at basketball, that makes a lot of sense to me. It's almost like a "freebie" ability: while others have to toil for years to learn how to become animagi or how to transform themselves with other ways with wands and potions, metamorphmagi have the inate ability to do it freely with no trouble. However I can't see someone like McGonagall looking down on an inate talent; talent is talent in her books, and she certainly appreciates the Potter family's talents on the Quidditch pitch!

or maybe he never did it in school because it is a talent that does not develop until later in life or you have to be trained to be able to control it; maybe he did do it in school but Sirius/Lupin just never brought it up in conversation;I like the idea of it being somethng that doesn't develop until later in life, or at least not being something you can consciously control until later in life. I've always thought of Peter as a bit of a late bloomer (hopeless in class yet can kill 12 muggles with one spell? kinda fishy :huh:). I can see the other Marauders getting pretty excited about having a metamorphmagus in their midst, though. It's one more way to cause trouble, isn't it? I can see them using him to impersonate members of the staff to play tricks on first year students, etc. It might have been something Peter was proud of, especially since it's something none of his friends -- the wickedly talented James and Sirius, and the brilliant Remus -- could do. Peter would be the only one with that particular talent, and that's important. Which leads me to my next point...

or maybe it is like grrliz theory, that it is part of his act, playing the pathetic loser but meanwhile having this really cool secret talent that nobody knows about.It always comes back to this, doesn't it? :) I made a case above for why he would share knowledge of his talent with his friends, and now I have to force myself to explain why he would keep this phenomenal ability to himself in order for it to fit into my initial theory. You'd think this would be one instance where he would be desperate to impress his friends with his mad crazy skills, and yet he keeps quiet. Why? Why oh why?! I'm stumped, to be completely honest. I'm going to think about it and then come back to this one.

I can't see someone like McGonagall looking down on an inate talent; Not so much looking down on it as..."well, he can change his face at will -- why can't he change the darn beetle to a button?!? grrr..." I can see the other Marauders getting pretty excited about having a metamorphmagus in their midst, though. It's one more way to cause trouble, isn't it? I can see them using him to impersonate members of the staff to play tricks on first year students, etc. Maybe that's why they let him hang around. They didn't particularly like him -- he was a coward and and otherwise talentless -- but he had one very useful skill that made him worthwhile to keep around.

Then again -- the fly in the ointment. Why not just morph your face instead of living as a rat for 12 years? *sigh* It was a good idea while it lasted...unless someone can come up with a good excuse for that, I think I might have to look for our metamorphmagus elsewhere...

Not so much looking down on it as..."well, he can change his face at will -- why can't he change the darn beetle to a button?!? grrr..." Maybe that's why they let him hang around. They didn't particularly like him -- he was a coward and and otherwise talentless -- but he had one very useful skill that made him worthwhile to keep around.Ha, yes! When you put it that way, that's exactly what McGonagall would say!

Then again -- the fly in the ointment. Why not just morph your face instead of living as a rat for 12 years? *sigh* It was a good idea while it lasted...unless someone can come up with a good excuse for that, I think I might have to look for our metamorphmagus elsewhere...Doesn't it say somewhere that Peter chose the Weasleys, though? It would be hard to be adopted into the family as a metamorphagus (i.e. the Weasleys wouldn't just adopt some guy off the street, they've got enough mouths to feed :) ). It could be an added layer of his "strength through weakness" style: he's consciously choosing one of his skills over the other in order to better integrate into a specific wizarding family. Perhaps it's his attempt to lie low until Voldemort's return, a conscious choice involving his animagus skill. It keeps one foot in the wizarding world while everyone thinks he's dead and gone. Living instead as a metamorphagus might not afford him the same possibility? Eh. I don't know. That's not the most airtight argument, but I still think Pettigrew as a metamorphagus is a large possibility.

Well Peter could be a better metamorphmagus because I kind of get the impression that it is easier to be a metamorphmagus than an animagus and Peter is no great wizard.

I actually dont think Pettigrew is really that strong at all unless he is taugh a lot by VOldemort. He just dosent pick up things easily. He was most likely easily persuaded by VOldemort. IT seems none of the other Murauders would do anything like betray friends. He is really not all that great. Plus he is an evil little rat.

Tonks says that you have to be born a metamorphagus, you can't just become one. This is opposed to becoming an Animagus, which is a skill that can be learned.

I heard a theory somewhere that it is possible that Harry is an Metamorphagus. The person cited the fact that Harry was able to make his hair grow back when Petunia cut it because he was concentrating so hard on his hair. I like this theory. I think it's definitely plausible.

I do think, however, that we have definitely not heard the last of Pettigrew.

I do think, however, that we have definitely not heard the last of Pettigrew.

Hmmm, definately. I am still wiating to see if he pays back the debt he owes Harry

AS for wormtail being a metamorphagus...I can't see it myself. I would think that he woukld have told the others, esp b/c he would have wanted to impress them, and knew it would come in handy. And I agree with the others, I think it's too much to hope for in one person...esp Wormtail

And I agree with the others, I think it's too much to hope for in one person...esp WormtailAh, but this is no ordinary Wormtail thread, it's the Power of Peter Pettigrew thread! We are to assume he has secret powers we know not! Remember, the theme of this thread is that Peter is capable of great things magically and that it works to his advantage to hide such talents. :)

he's consciously choosing one of his skills over the other in order to better integrate into a specific wizarding family. Perhaps it's his attempt to lie low until Voldemort's return, a conscious choice involving his animagus skill. It keeps one foot in the wizarding world while everyone thinks he's dead and gone. Thanks for reviving this! On further thought, it makes some sense. I had been thinking, well, he'd just change his face and carry on. But think about the times -- even after Voldemort was vaporized, there were still DEs on the loose; the LeStranges & Crouch were tried after the fall. So there was still probably an attitude of mistrust. Suddenly Peter shows up with a new face, a stranger, and everyone's still a little cautious. They won't welcome him into their confidence. Further, he's got to make up a whole new identity. Not easy for him; he's more powerful and cunning than clever. No, it's much easier for him to go underground as a rat, move in with a wizarding family and wait for the right time to come out. Check this out too:
"Kind boy...kind master..." Pettigrew crawled toward Ron, "you won't let them do it....I was your rat... I was a good pet...."
"If you made a better rat than a human, it's not much to boast about, Peter," said Black harshly.So maybe he did make a better rat than a human! He just dosent pick up things easily. He was most likely easily persuaded by VOldemort. IT seems none of the other Murauders would do anything like betray friends. He is really not all that great. Ah, but that is just what he wants you to think! I have long asserted that he's less driven by fear than he is ambition. And I just found the quote for evidence. "Sirius, Sirius, what could I have done? The Dark Lord...you have no idea...he has weapons you can't imagine...I was scared, Sirius, I was never brave like you and Remus and James. I never meant it to happen....He-Who-Must-Not Be-Named forced me--"
"DON'T LIE!" bellowed Black. "YOU'D BEEN PASSING INFORMATION TO HIM FOR A YEAR BEFORE LILY AND JAMES DIED! YOU WERE HIS SPY!"
"He --he was taking over everywhere!" gasped Pettigrew. "Wh -- what was there to be gained by refusing him?" So there it is -- "what is to be gained?" He's not thinking about anyone else, he's wondering what's in it for him. Answer: weapons you can't imagine. He's willing to betray his friends, blow up a street full of muggles, chop off his own finger and live 12 years as a rat for it. We saw he's willing to whack off his own hand for it. I swear that rat is Slytherin -- it is written all over him. (And if he is a metamorphmagus, maybe that's why the marauders let him hang around...)

I think it would be too much for Peter to also be a metamorph...I do think it is likely that he has other powers that we have not seen...but this seems like it would be just too much.

That being said, I do think we will see another metamorphmagi....hence my siggy!

I agree that Tonks animagi powers were probably in OotP to prepare us for them being used more in a later book. But couldn't it just be Tonks herself who will make more use of them? If she'd done it in OotP it would have seemed contrived and Deus Ex-ish, but now we've all gotten used to the idea of what she can do.

I don't think Peter has any hidden powers of that sort. I do think he's capable of very extreme measures though and that we'll see that in later books. Actually, I think that the 'power' I'm most intrigued by is his brand new silver hand. Especially since the other remaining Marauder is a werewolf.

I agree with the comment of the silver hand and Lupin...but in some vampire mythology silver is also used to kill vamps....Now...who do we know that might be vampish?

I agree with the comment of the silver hand and Lupin...but in some vampire mythology silver is also used to kill vamps....Now...who do we know that might be vampish?The first description of Sirius in PoA desribes him as being vamire like, but of course he's already dead. Snape is also an obvious (therefore unlikely) choice. Also see: The Vampire of the Story? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=23902)

Thanks for the link! I wasn't suggesting any one particular person, just that the hand may come in "handy" in more ways than one...

didn't notice the horrid "handy" pun until after I finished typing...just know that it was unintentional!

The first description of Sirius in PoA desribes him as being vamire like, but of course he's already dead. Snape is also an obvious (therefore unlikely) choice. Also see: The Vampire of the Story? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=23902)
Don't forget JKR deflated the "Snape is a Vampire!" theory in her World Book Day chat.

Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires?
JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so.

:)

Ah, but this is no ordinary Wormtail thread, it's the Power of Peter Pettigrew thread! We are to assume he has secret powers we know not! Remember, the theme of this thread is that Peter is capable of great things magically and that it works to his advantage to hide such talents.

I think Wormtail def has some strong magic in him, he proved that after betraying the Potters. And I agree that he would disguise such powers from his friends (esp after moving to join Vol). That said I don't think metamorphagi would be one of those powers. He would have known about that when he was first starting at Hogwarts, and I think that he would have shared that with the others, because at that staged he would have done alot to impress them, and that power, def would have impressed them. In my mind Peter's magical strength comes through when he is desperate...like getting away from Sirius...becoming Anamagi so that he wasn't left behind...

What occurs to me is that certain characters, like James and Lily, we have not seen enough of in action to determine the truth of their character, so we have to rely on the opinions of others. For example, James is a conundrum, because we really have only two scenes, and two distinctly different views; Snape's view and his Worst Memory; and what nearly everyone else says about James and what we know of Godric's Hollow. That's all we have to go on, so we are forced to decide which side we believe is more indicative of the man.

But Peter we have seen in action multiple times: in the Shrieking Shack, the Riddle House, the cemetary in GoF, accounts of his "death", and his life as Scabbers. We don't have to rely on what Sirius or McGonagall say about him (I don't remember anyone else really commenting much on his character or talent -- correct me if someone else does, I'd really like to know). We can look at his words and actions.

Anyway, hindsight can be deceiving. McGonagall felt guilty for being harsh with him because he was dead, and maybe she romanticized it. If she knew the truth, maybe she might have said, "That Pettigrew, I knew he would come to no good, I was constantly on his case for not paying attention. He was talented enough but never applied himself to proper studies." And Sirius, what is he going to say -- he was angry and bitter and is going to lash out in any way possible. So why put so much weight on what they say instead of what we've actually seen Peter do and say?

The evidence in my mind leads to a much stronger talent than Sirius and McGonagall have lead us to believe. And that quote I used in my last post where he says "what was there to be gained?" speaks volumes to me on his motivations. That is too precise for JKR to have put in there by accident.

But Peter we have seen in action multiple times: in the Shrieking Shack, the Riddle House, the cemetary in GoF, accounts of his "death", and his life as Scabbers. We don't have to rely on what Sirius or McGonagall say about him (I don't remember anyone else really commenting much on his character or talent -- correct me if someone else does, I'd really like to know). We can look at his words and actions. [snip] So why put so much weight on what they say instead of what we've actually seen Peter do and say?

The evidence in my mind leads to a much stronger talent than Sirius and McGonagall have lead us to believe. And that quote I used in my last post where he says "what was there to be gained?" speaks volumes to me on his motivations. That is too precise for JKR to have put in there by accident.Excellent point. Wormtail is someone we have seen a lot and can interpret his motivations and talents based on his actions and words; we don't need to rely on others so heavily (or at all) the way we have to with James, Lily, young Snape, etc.

When I get more time, perhaps I'll start posting all the Peter Pettigrew scenes from the books for us to pick apart and analyze and see what we come up with.

Haven't read the thread yet but have a Wormtail question. Will he be able to continue to be an animagus with a medal hand? May not be important but I was curious what it may effect.

Haven't read the thread yet but have a Wormtail question. Will he be able to continue to be an animagus with a medal hand? May not be important but I was curious what it may effect.That's actually a really good question. Peter's ability to transform into the rat is what kept him hidden for all those years: it greatly reduced the risk of him being seen in human form and having someone say "Hang on, weren't you murdered by Sirius Black in 1981? :huh:" Granted, Peter's appearance has become dishevelled over time, just like Sirius', so he may not be that recognizeable any more. But that hand seems to be a definite problem (at least for me). How is a little rat going to run around with a gigantic silver hand? The hand is not a part of him biologically, so I don't think it would shrink down with the rest of him. He's lost his cover, and now that he and Voldemort are back in England, this could become a big problem.

He stayed trasnfigured as a rat for twelve years. I cannot imagine the strength needed to resist turning back into human form, even just for five minutes.


I kind of imagine the strength of mind is needed for transfiguring back into a human, not for staying a rat. Once you've transfigured yourself into something that even wizards cannot recognize as anything other than a rat (and a non-magical one), you've got a rat's brain to think with. I think it would take great strength of mind to remember you're wizard and to be able to change back after 12 years.

I kind of imagine the strength of mind is needed for transfiguring back into a human, not for staying a rat. Once you've transfigured yourself into something that even wizards cannot recognize as anything other than a rat (and a non-magical one), you've got a rat's brain to think with. I think it would take great strength of mind to remember you're wizard and to be able to change back after 12 years.I think what grrlliz meant by ‘strength of mind’ was ‘willpower’ on the part of Pettigrew not to want to become human again after running around on the ground as a rat for so long (correct me if I'm wrong though!). I imagine that even if you are fond of your animagus form, it would get awfully tiresome to exist as an animal for an extended amount of time. Imagine all the things you would not be able to do as a rat that you'd be able to do as a human. I reckon Peter would miss these things after a while. He must have had to resist the temptation to change back into human form. I do agree with you jasper that it would have taken a lot of concentration for Peter to change back to a human, especially since the transformation was a bit more difficult for him than it was for James or Sirius, but I also expect that if he ever did give in to his desire to return to human form, Peter would probably have had no problem making the transformation.

Stayce- excellent question! I'd never really thought about it before, but I guess I agree with grrliz that since the hand isn't really a biological part of his body (at least that's the way it seems, because it appears to be made of metal), it might interfere with his ability to transform. Either that, or it would disengage from his wrist when he transformed. :shrug: If the hand does prevent Peter from transforming, then as grrliz said, this could have some pretty profound consequences for Peter, namely that he has lost his best form of disguise.

I think what grrlliz meant by ‘strength of mind’ was ‘willpower’ on the part of Pettigrew not to want to become human again after running around on the ground as a rat for so long (correct me if I'm wrong though!). I imagine that even if you are fond of your animagus form, it would get awfully tiresome to exist as an animal for an extended amount of time. Imagine all the things you would not be able to do as a rat that you'd be able to do as a human. I reckon Peter would miss these things after a while. He must have had to resist the temptation to change back into human form. I do agree with you jasper that it would have taken a lot of concentration for Peter to change back to a human, especially since the transformation was a bit more difficult for him than it was for James or Sirius, but I also expect that if he ever did give in to his desire to return to human form, Peter would probably have had no problem making the transformation.Yup, that's exactly what I meant, RemusLupinFan. It's all about resisting the temptation to transform: that takes an incredible amount of mental strength to fight. It's been suggested that perhaps Peter might be able to sneak off occasionally to transform back into a human and stretch his legs a bit, thus alleviating the temptation somewhat. But once you give in temptation once, it's a lot harder to fight it the second time round. :evil: Also, it may be easy for Scabbers to sneak off at the Burrow since it seems to be outside of a small town (I imagine there are lots of forests and things perfect for hiding animagus trasnformations), but once he's at Hogwarts for 10 months of the year, would he risk transforming? Even if he's left in the Gryffindor common room / boys dormitory all day, he never knows when soemone is going to casually walk into the room. Seamus walks into his dormitory and finds a man there, looking through Harry's photo album. He gawks, and goes back to the common room. "Um, Harry... there's some guy looking at your photo album up there. Who is he?"

Stayce- excellent question! I'd never really thought about it before, but I guess I agree with grrliz that since the hand isn't really a biological part of his body (at least that's the way it seems, because it appears to be made of metal), it might interfere with his ability to transform. Either that, or it would disengage from his wrist when he transformed. :shrug: If the hand does prevent Peter from transforming, then as grrliz said, this could have some pretty profound consequences for Peter, namely that he has lost his best form of disguise.I'm imagining Peter's hand dropping off as he transforms and then the conversation he has to have with Voldemort when he returns to him.

Voldemort: Wormtail, where is the precious gift I gave you?
Wormtail: What gift do you speak of, my Lord?
Voldemort:: The silver hand I rewarded you with for helping me return to my body.
Wormtail: Oh... that. Um... you see, my Lord, it's a funny story, really...
Voldemort: *raises eyebrow*

Any thoughts on the life-debt? I've always thought this to be supremely important.

Hmm. There was a thread on it, but the link I found ended up nowhere. ("Wormtail's Debt To Harry" is supposed to be here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=13245) but isn't.)

In my searching, however, I did come across a thread that seems to fit with this one if it proves to be even remotely true: Wormtail: Occlumens? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=30514)

How would Wormtail be able to be around Dumbledore and the Order if he was spying for Voldemort? It kind of seems like a reverse Snape thing.. because Dumbledore is an accomplished Legilimens so he should be able to get inside Wormtails mind and see he is spying unless Wormtail is an Occlumens. And he seems a little dim to be an Occlumens.. but his powers been underestimated before too. But I don't see how Voldemort can read his mind in the beginning of Book 4 and Dumbledore isn't able to when he was in the order before betraying the Potters...Hmmm.

I really like Peter´s character because he is very misterious. There´s a lot of him we don´t know. I think he is one of the most interesting characters in the series.
We read he always followed his friends and he was weak and coward, he wasn´t talented or good at magic. However, he did lot´s of intelligents and great things.

He killed twelve muggles and left a huge crater in the ground with one single spell.
Obviously he was very poweful indeed. He needed a lot of magical power to do this.

Sirius couldn´t fight him. He was too powerful
why could the weak Peter won a fight with the super intelligent, brave and talented Sirius Black.


He framed one of his best friends for not only the murder of those twelve muggles, but also for his own faked death!
This is a really really intelligent plan. So he is not as stupid as we thought.


He passed information from the Order to Voldemort for an entire year without being caught.
This shows as again how intelligent he is.

Well he was at griffindor so he has to be brave.
I thought he was pathetic, stupid an coward..... but with time I realized that he was the same or even more intelligent than the other marauders. He did fought to Sirius and won and he was sent to azcaban bacause of Peter´s great plan. All the magic community thought he was dead and he had tried to protect the potters.

Keep an eye on our rat friend because there´s more to him than meets the eye.
JK said we would find out a loy about Pettigre in the sixth book.

thanks for reading.
I hope you undestand me because I don´t know a lot of english.
Kisses.

I think there are big parts yet for Womtail to play out. Either he will redeem himself, which is still a possibility, and given his betrayal of Harry's parents, and his disgust at his master, he may make some sort of sacrifice that can redeem his character. Selfsacrifice is a big thing in the wizard world.

Of course what I think is more likely is that Wormtail will end up hurting someone else close to Peter, there may be a significance to his silverhand also. Silver - Silver Bullet - Werewolf - Remus Lupin. Just a thought, I love Lupin and really dont want him to bite it tho.

Dumbledore is skilled at occlumency, so how is it that he didn't know that Peter was a spy? I doubt that he went around looking Order members in the eye to investigate their loyalty, but once he knew there was a spy in the order, what did he do to try to find the spy? We aren't ever told of his actions to discover the spy, but he are told of the precautions that were taken to protect those Voldemort was after. I don't think that Peter is skilled at occlumency, so how did he manage to avoid detection? Maybe he just avoided Dumbledore as much as possible. What do you all think?

See, I don't get it either! The only conclusion I can come to is either a) Peter is more talented than we give him credit for, or b) Dumbledore is less talented than we give him credit for. Or maybe a little of both. But I lean toward option a; I really think Peter is rather good at deception. I can't wait to find out where he's been hiding out (or not hiding out). :evil:

Then again...maybe Dumbledore knew and had his reasons for not doing anything. But most people here would agree that Dumbledore doesn't seem to be the type that would allow the Potters to be killed and Sirius to be imprisoned for 12 years because he thought it would be better in the long run. DD wouldn't make that kind of decision, to sacrifice someone else's life for the cause. So I don't think he knew, at least not before the Potter's were killed. He's not as all-knowing as we're led to believe.

I really think that Peter ran to voldemort because he saw his power growing and saw that James could no longer protect him. He is a low down snitch in my opinion look at the horrible things he has caused to happen. It doesent seem to me he has any good abilities but the ability to be a "rat" He was low down and weak and he wanted someone to make sure he was safe and he seeked that in voldemort which in the end i think he will highly regret. He is easily frightened into doing what others want him to do.He is just a traitor an unloyal person in my opinion.

Dumbledore is definitly not telling us (or Harry) all he knows. And he knows a lot.
First I can´t believe James, Sirius and Lily didn´t tell him the secret keeper was Peter. Why didn´t they tell him if he was the leader of the orden of the fenix? they didn´t trust him? Didn´t Dumbledore do that charm' I think he did and he did it to Peter not Sirius.
He didn´t tell Harry anything in OotP until the end. (he had his reasons)
So I think there´s a lot he didn´t tell harry because he has his reason.
I personally don´t like Dumbledore. I liked him until book 4 but in the fith one he was different. And after Sirius...died. I just hate Dumbledore.
He is and excellent wizard, really powerfull. He knows ocllumancy. So I think he knes Peter was the potter´s secreat keeper and he was a spy. He knew Sirius was innocent but he did´t help him and he didn´t help potters.
I think the reason he didn´t help Sirius scape from Azcaban was because he knew that if sirius scaped he would kill Peter. And he needed Peter because remember in book 4 Peter brought LV back to life and Peter will be (in my opinion) very important at the time of killing LV ( remember his deubt with harry). I think this is Dumbledore´s plan and he time travels a lot.
I hope we learn more about him in th next book.

In regards to HermioneLuna's question, I guess I agree with Blacks Beauty's "option a"- that Peter must be very sly and good at deception. He must have somehow made sure that he avoided contact with with Dumbledore in a non-suspicious way. I have also never understood why Dumbledore didn't realize that Sirius was innocent if he could perform Legilimency and find out from Sirius' mind that Peter was the Secret-Keeper and the betrayer. Maybe the trial/hearing that Sirius received progressed too quickly for Dumbledore to do anything. Or perhaps it was another "old man's mistake" that Dumbledore didn't try to use Legilimency on Sirius. Maybe there's another reason behind it that I can't think of. I'm not sure, but I don't know if we'll ever really learn the true events of those few days surrounding the deaths of the Potters.

See, I don't get it either! The only conclusion I can come to is either a) Peter is more talented than we give him credit for, or b) Dumbledore is less talented than we give him credit for.Well, naturally I think the answer is A because, well, that's the entire reason I started this thread! :D HermioneLuna brought up the idea of Peter as an occlumens, and while she didn't think it was possible, it's something I'm keeping in mind. The more I think about Peter as a Death Eater, the more I think about Snape as a Death Eater and what his relationship (if any) might have been to Peter. Snape is a superb Occlumens, and Occlumency is supposedly a very obscure branch of magic. Might Occlumency be something one learns in Death Eater boot camp? Voldemort needs to work undetected and his followers operate with great stealth, so the ability to block others from invading your mind would be a very good tool to have as a Death Eater.

So far my only proof against the idea of Peter being an occlumens is that Voldemort says in GoF that he can always tell when Peter is lying to him. This indicates one, many, or all of the following :



Peter is not an occlumens and Voldemort is able to penetrate his mind


Peter is a mediocre occlumens and Voldemort is still able to penetrate his mind


Peter is a competent occlumens but Voldemort is a more competent legilimens


Peter is an strong occlumens and Voldemort is just wrong about knowing when Peter is lying


Peter is an exceptionally strong occlumens and is able to trick Voldemort into thinking he's lying
My feelings are somewhere in the middle, that Peter is a capable and competent occlumens but Voldemort's own opposite skill is so strong that Peter isn't able to combat it. However, I've always been of the mind that Dumbledore's legillimency skills would rival Voldemort's, so who knows.

Maybe the trial/hearing that Sirius received progressed too quickly for Dumbledore to do anything. Or perhaps it was another "old man's mistake" that Dumbledore didn't try to use Legilimency on Sirius. Maybe there's another reason behind it that I can't think of. Sirius didn't get a trial, he was sent straight to Azkaban, so I think it was definitely a case of events transpiring too quickly for Dumbledore to be able to do anything about it. Although now that I think about it, can one use legillimency as proof of anything? I mean, you'd be able to recognize if someone were lying or telling the truth, but would that sort of testimony stand up in court? If Dumbledore said he had legillimensed the truth that Sirius hadn't done that, would his testimony outweigh the "evidence" that would undoubtedly convict Sirius?

(I'm just consistently questioning the validity of truth obtained from thigns like occlumency, legillimency, veritaserum, and the Pensieve, pay me no mind. :))

How could Peter have been in any house besides slytherin, we know that no one has ever gone bad except from slytherin?

How could Peter have been in any house besides slytherin, we know that no one has ever gone bad except from slytherin?

1) Hagrid didn't know he had gone bad.
2) Hagrid didn't know Sirius *hadn't* gone bad, so he was basically generalizing with this quote. In other words, he was wrong.

How could Peter have been in any house besides slytherin, we know that no one has ever gone bad except from slytherin?It's an exaggeration propogated by a lot of students that bad wizards only come from Slytherin. In CoS, Harry is reminiscing about his own Sorting the year before and thinks this: For a few horrible seconds he had feared that the hat was going to put him in Slytherin, the house which had turned out more dark witches and wizards than any other -- but he had ended up in Gryffindor, along with Ron, Hermione and the rest of the Weasleys. So while it's true that Slytherin may have turned out more evil wizards than the other houses, the other houses aren't immune to having evil amongst them.

Sirius didn't get a trial, he was sent straight to Azkaban, so I think it was definitely a case of events transpiring too quickly for Dumbledore to be able to do anything about it. Although now that I think about it, can one use legillimency as proof of anything? I mean, you'd be able to recognize if someone were lying or telling the truth, but would that sort of testimony stand up in court? If Dumbledore said he had legillimensed the truth that Sirius hadn't done that, would his testimony outweigh the "evidence" that would undoubtedly convict Sirius?Ahh yes, you are right Sirius didn't get a trial. I got confused when it said that Dumbledore had testified against Sirius. Perhaps by this they just meant that he confirmed that Sirius had been the Secret Keeper. In any case, it makes more sense that Dumbledore wouldn't have had any time to find out the truth using Legilemency- if Sirius got no trial whatsoever, he was likely whisked away to Azkaban before anyone could use Veritaserum or Legilemency (I assume this is due to the "incontrovertible" evidence of Sirius' guilt). Therefore, Dumbledore likely had no chance to do anything after "testifying" against Sirius.

You have a good point about Legilemency not being very good in prooving to others the guilt or innocence of someone. Unless there was a way to bring what is learned through Legilemency out into the open in a visual way, I would have to agree with you that this method would only allow the person performing Legilemency to learn the truth and no one else.

Which brings me back on topic to Peter Pettigrew. I think it's an interesting idea that he might have been a Legilemens and/or an Occlumens- I doubt he'd be as good as Voldemort though. Somehow, even with Peter's obvious hidden talents, I don't think it's likely that he'd be too accomplished in Occlumency (I also don't believe he's likely to know Legilemency at any great skill level), mainly because it is such advanced and complecated magic that requires a lot of concentration. I know the Animagus tranformation is probably similar in that it too requires a lot of concentration, but Occlumency seems to also require a strength of the mind that Peter lacks, in my opinion. I do feel that Peter must have some Occlumency skills- it would appear to be a great asset when dealing with Voldemort. Though I think perhaps there are some things he is able to block from Voldemort when Voldemort's attention is divided, or when Peter's having a good day.

it was definitely a case of events transpiring too quickly for Dumbledore to be able to do anything about it.
How quickly are 12 years?
Sirius went to azcaban without a trial and Dumbledore testified against him. I think he knew Sirius was inocent but he had his perfect plan so he didn´t do anything to help him.
Dumbledore told the potters that Voldemort was after them...well after little Harry. He told them to find a secret keeper to do the fideliam charm (I don´t know how to write it). He offered himself to be their secret keeper but James wanted Sirius to take that position.
But then Sirius said that Peter had to be the secert keeper (you know the story) so that Voldemort would go after Sirius instead of the real secret keeper.
But it was Dumbledore who did the fideliam charm (again I don´t know how to write it). and he did that charm on Peter. So he knew he, Peter Pettigrew, was the potters´ secret keeper.

I think the plan Dumbledore talked about at the end of OotP involves time travelling a lot ( remember that strange watch he has).
In my opinion Dumbledore knew Sirius was inocent and let him go to azcaban. He didn´t do anything to find Peter because he knew he must be saved by harry in order to have a deubt with him. He wanted Peter to bring Voldemort back to life. Because know that Vodlemort has a body he can be kill. That´s by we saw the look of triunf (don´t know how to write it) in his eyes at the end of GoF.
Dumbledore told harry at the end of OotP that he had made his decision and the sacrifice of lily would protect him. I didn´t undestand that either.

I hope you could undesrtand at least something of what I said because I don´t know a lot of english and I´m writting very fast.
Tell me what you think, I really apreciate your opinion even if you tell me my post was a complete was of time.
thanks for reading.

He stayed trasnfigured as a rat for twelve years. I cannot imagine the strength needed to resist turning back into human form, even just for five minutes.
That's not something I'd be proud of -- being a fat, dirty rat for most of my life.

I think that Peter was pretty weak and defenseless in his first few years at Hogwarts. And then when he saw the popularity of Sirius and James then he started to make his grand plan. Sirius, James and Lupin didn't see that both Snape & Peter were becoming Death Eaters right in front of their eyes -- they only saw them as being weak.

But it was Dumbledore who did the fideliam charm (again I don´t know how to write it). and he did that charm on Peter. So he knew he, Peter Pettigrew, was the potters´ secret keeper.I'm not sure that we know who performed the Fidelius Charm because I don't think the book explicitly says. We know Dumbledore didn't know of the Secret-Keeper switch, which makes me inclined to believe that he wasn't the one who performed the Fidelius Charm. Lily's wand, as you undoubtedly know, was excellent for charm work, and if she's as talented as we've been led to believe then she probably performed it herself, either alone or as a joint effort with James and Peter.

PS Your English is pretty good! :)

I really think that Peter ran to voldemort because he saw his power growing and saw that James could no longer protect him. He is a low down snitch in my opinion look at the horrible things he has caused to happen. It doesent seem to me he has any good abilities but the ability to be a "rat" He was low down and weak and he wanted someone to make sure he was safe and he seeked that in voldemort which in the end i think he will highly regret. He is easily frightened into doing what others want him to do.He is just a traitor an unloyal person in my opinion.
If we believe Peter's explanation that he was terrorized into working for Voldemort then yes, we can conclude that he is weak. But weakness isn't the only reason for treachery.

I think Wormtail made a calculated judgement when he decided to change sides (insofar as he was on the right side to start with...). He went over to Voldemort not because he was frightened (surely spying on your more powerful friends must be frightening and risky?) but because he felt Voldemort had either a better chance of winning the war or had more to offer Wormtail.

Originally posted by Grrliz
So while it's true that Slytherin may have turned out more evil wizards than the other houses, the other houses aren't immune to having evil amongst them.
We really don't know what house Pettigrew was in, though opinion on this falls into two camps, both of which are equally weak on evidence;
1) He must have been in Gryffindor because the rest of the Marauders were and inter-house friendships are rare.
2) He must have been in Slytherin because he turned to the Dark side, which is Slytherin-esque behaviour.
Why does no-one think he could've been in Hufflepuff?! :p

Though the Slytherin = Bad (and vice versa) argument isn't a strong one to say that Pettigrew was in Slytherin, this thread has brought out alot of arguments that suggest Pettigrew possessed Slytherin qualtities - cunning and ambition in particular, and certainly ruthless self-preservation.

Of course, I could just be saying this because it supports my "Pettigrew as the Marauder's pet Slytherin" theory, to which I am ridiculously attached on account of it explaining the whole Pettigrew-Marauders-Snape business in line with my personal likes and dislikes, lack of evidence notwithstanding. :eyebrows:
Originally posted by Grrliz
I'm not sure that we know who performed the Fidelius Charm because I don't think the book explicitly says.
It doesn't say, but I think you are right - Lily almost certainly performed it.

Whilst I think we can ask questions about Dumbledore's failure to question Sirius' guilt before he escaped from Azkaban, I really can't imagine that he would have done nothing if he had known for cetain that Pettigrew was the secret keeper. Crouch Snr may have sent Sirius to Azkaban without a trial, but Dumbledore is an important and influential figure - if he could get Snape off the hook, I'm sure he could have done something for Sirius had he known the truth.

See, I don't get it either! The only conclusion I can come to is either a) Peter is more talented than we give him credit for, or b) Dumbledore is less talented than we give him credit for. Or maybe a little of both. But I lean toward option a; I really think Peter is rather good at deception. I can't wait to find out where he's been hiding out (or not hiding out). :evil:
I agree with that. I don't think Dumbledore is any less talented that we have been led to believe, but I really think that Peter hid his talents and is very skilled at deception.

I like many agruements here on Pettigrew's talent. He's always described as a poor wizard, yet he has definately shown himself as being a formidable opponent. This could be where the 'The Dark Arts Gives You Power Surges' theory stands true..or it could be because of Pettigrew's own nature. I will argue both sides here.

-I believe each of the times he shows some great magical powers is when he is extremely threatened/stress/trying to save his own skin.
That's an interesting notion. It does have precedent in the examples we are given of wizarding children, whose magical talent does seem to manifest itself most strongly when their emotions are strongly engaged. It also has some precedent in Neville, whose magic becomes far more powerful (if also far more wild and uncontrolled) when under stress or scared.

And also, this could be why Voldemort is always torturing/berating/yelling at Wormtail- he's trying to terrify some magic into the man, and at the same time being all I'm-An-Evil-Overlord-Who-Doesn't-Give-A-****-About-Anyone's-Feelings.



-But as much as it does always appeal to me to try to defend the little rat, he does take the time to deliver his "Lily and James, how COULD you" line, doesn't he? That just doesn't work for me somehow as the action of someone in a state of desperate terror firing off a spell in a moment of pure panic. That speaks to me of at least some degree of premeditation.

As does the finger bit. Really, it's just far too elaborate a frame-up job for me to believe as an on-the-spot decision. It had to have been planned ahead of time, and if it was, then Peter must have had some reason to believe that he would be capable of pulling off a big enough "Go BOOM" spell to make others accept that he had been vaporized by it.

The Shrieking Shack- same thing. He was being threatened with death/life in Azkaban...that would probably terrify some magic into him.
It certainly doesn't render him capable of wandless magic, though, does it? He isn't able to do a thing for himself at the point at which he is by far the most terrified: when he's actually about to be killed. It doesn't even seem to occur to him to try. He just grovels and weeps.

And his actual escape strikes me as far more bloodlessly competent than panicked. Whether or not his framing of Sirius required perfect timing, his escape at the end of PoA certainly did. His window of opportunity opens, and he acts. It's split-second. And it's not just an explosive BOOM spell either. He chooses his targets rationally. He hits Ron, because Ron is standing the closest to him and is an immediate threat. He hits Crookshanks because Crookshanks is running towards him and so is the next most immediate threat. That leaves him a clear field to transform, so long as he does so before Harry and Hermione can fire off any spells, and that's precisely what he does.

It doesn't seem much like an act of panic to me

Any thoughts?

KlutzyFreak, you've brought up some excellent points! :tu:

-I believe each of the times he shows some great magical powers is when he is extremely threatened/stress/trying to save his own skin. That's an interesting notion. It does have precedent in the examples we are given of wizarding children, whose magical talent does seem to manifest itself most strongly when their emotions are strongly engaged. It also has some precedent in Neville, whose magic becomes far more powerful (if also far more wild and uncontrolled) when under stress or scared.

And also, this could be why Voldemort is always torturing/berating/yelling at Wormtail- he's trying to terrify some magic into the man, and at the same time being all I'm-An-Evil-Overlord-Who-Doesn't-Give-A-****-About-Anyone's-Feelings.I like this idea a lot. All magical children (save squibs, who I guess aren't really considered magical anyway) have some innate ability to produce wandless magic in stressful circumstances, and I imagine that Voldemort belittling Peter into a constant state of stress or anxiety could definitely enhance the skills he may already possess. We know Harry does wandless magic when he's angry (i.e. Aunt Marge) and when I've read the scenes of Peter and Voldemort together, especially the one at the start of GoF, Wormtail seems less scared of Voldemort than he is brave and nearly defiant of him, and that anger could come from the belittling. That's my own interpretation of those scenes of course, and its definitely shaped by how I view Peter. :wink:

-But as much as it does always appeal to me to try to defend the little rat, he does take the time to deliver his "Lily and James, how COULD you" line, doesn't he? That just doesn't work for me somehow as the action of someone in a state of desperate terror firing off a spell in a moment of pure panic. That speaks to me of at least some degree of premeditation.

As does the finger bit. Really, it's just far too elaborate a frame-up job for me to believe as an on-the-spot decision. It had to have been planned ahead of time, and if it was, then Peter must have had some reason to believe that he would be capable of pulling off a big enough "Go BOOM" spell to make others accept that he had been vaporized by it.

The Shrieking Shack- same thing. He was being threatened with death/life in Azkaban...that would probably terrify some magic into him. It certainly doesn't render him capable of wandless magic, though, does it? He isn't able to do a thing for himself at the point at which he is by far the most terrified: when he's actually about to be killed. It doesn't even seem to occur to him to try. He just grovels and weeps.I guess this could go back to what I said earlier about his wandless magic enhancing the skills he already has, or rather that being in a frenzied state would make him capable of producing wandless magic that would give greater power to magic he could do with a wand. This would make sense as to why he was unable to do anything for himself in the Shrieking Shack but why the blast from his wand was so shockingly powerful when he was cornered by Sirius.

And his actual escape strikes me as far more bloodlessly competent than panicked. Whether or not his framing of Sirius required perfect timing, his escape at the end of PoA certainly did. His window of opportunity opens, and he acts. It's split-second. And it's not just an explosive BOOM spell either. He chooses his targets rationally. He hits Ron, because Ron is standing the closest to him and is an immediate threat. He hits Crookshanks because Crookshanks is running towards him and so is the next most immediate threat. That leaves him a clear field to transform, so long as he does so before Harry and Hermione can fire off any spells, and that's precisely what he does.:tu: Peter is definitely a quick thinker, far more so than most give him credit for. Someone mentioned a long time ago how Peter may not be exactly "people smart" but he is definitely "street smart", because of course what a "rat" needs to do best is learn how to survive out there in the real world :evil:. He's quick thinking: he knows he needs to escape, and as you've pointed out he's quick to get his two biggest obstacles out of the way to do so. A lesser mind would probably have tried running off with Ron dragging behind him. :D

So we've got Peter with two minds here: cool, calm, and calculated Peter, able to think out elaborate plans and see them through to the end without much of a hitch in his plans, and quick-thinking, spontaneous, street-wise Peter, able to come up with plans at the drop of a hat (or wand) with split-second timing. Impressive feats for someone whose supposed to be an idiot. :rolleyes:

in GoF, Wormtail is described as a mediocre wizard by LV
in OotP, he is said to be stupid and not talented
so the quetion ive been asking myself is how did wormtail manage to kill 12 people with one curse?
also in OotP, chapter 6, george said suggested that LV is searching for a new weapon that can kill sereval people at once. but if wormtail could do it, then of course LV could
plz discuss

Muggles said it was a gas explosion, right?
Muggles aren't stupid (well, some of them aren't).
There would have to be something nearby which could cause a gas explosion (I'm thinking maybe a factory of some sort, but anything goes really).
I think Wormtail did a spell that would blow up this source of gas.
I bet that's a whole lot easier than Avada Kedavra on just one person, let alone 12.
You see, then he would have killed 12 people with one curse, just not the curse you think.

good point

Thank you!
Does anyone else have any bright ideas?

Since it was, called by muggles, a gas explosion how is it that only 12 died? But more to the point I agree with pumpkinpasty, since he is described as stupid and not talented it would've been easier just to blow up the factory or whatever supplied the gas. I never saw in the books, though, if Wormtail had a wand or not.

Maybe this belongs in History of Magic?

If it was a gas explosion, how did Sirius and Peter survive? A magical shield?

It couldn't have been a magical shield, as Sirius wasn't expecting it and he was caught unawares.

Besides I think it is quite obvious that Wormtail has hidden talent. There are some quite popular theories about him being a metamorphmagus (sp?).

Anyway he could have used reducto on the ground and burst some pipes. Or maybe that spell can kill.

I think he must have just blown up the factory

:welcome: to the Forums, thedarklord_89! (And of course everyone else who is new here. :))

You may want to check out these threads (both found in History of Magic, via Advanced Search (www.cosforums.com/search.php?) and the option "Titles only"):

* "The Power of Peter Pettigrew aka Wormtail" www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=34211
* "In Defense of Peter Pettigrew" www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=14317

It really is the best option to do a search (www.cosforums.com/search.php?) before starting a new thread. :) I'm told that duplicate threads are deleted, and all post count in them is lost.

it is interesting to think that maybe wormtail is hiding something or never used his abilities to the fullest while in school but i know that we have not heard the last of this and a possibility might be that someone else was there that we dont know about yet or maybe wormtail is just a bad wizard and a spell backfired and created a weapon of destruction and thats why LV wants to keep him around to figure out waht happened---- there are endless possibilities some less likely than the others but JKR has been known to surprise us and every possibility should be said...

Wormtail just seems too stupid to have purposely killed 12 people. he probably went for serius and he ducked and the spell hit a gas line or something behind serius. No person who has any sense would cut off thier own hand for anyone.
but then again, it did take alot of dedication to stay a rat for 13 years. :p

good point, he does have dedication

the gas explosion thing is a really really good explanation, although when jo was writing it i dont think she had that in mind. maybe LV taught him something, or gave him some extra powers for the time-being. u never know. and just a side note, aside from the 12 ppl who died, there were prolly a number who were injured.

all the references that wormtail was stupid or and inadequate(sp?) wizard are made by people who knew him before he went over to voldemort. i think that under voldemort he might have improved. i also think that the reductor curse hitting a gas line or something is a good theory. as to the fact that he cut off his own finger.....ive heard of people doing some pretty painful and weird stuff to survive, and im sure that if wormtail hadnt cut his finger off and blew the street apart sirius would have killed him. it does say in the 3rd book he had his wand behind his back and that he blew the street apart. just my thoughts.

Wormtail just seems too stupid to have purposely killed 12 people. he probably went for serius and he ducked and the spell hit a gas line or something behind serius[sp]. No person who has any sense would cut off thier own hand for anyone.
but then again, it did take alot of dedication to stay a rat for 13 years. :p

It's Sirius people. Pronounced Sih-rey-us.

Anway he couldn't have been aiming at Sirius. He was facing Sirius so if his wand was behind his back he couldn't have been.

He just blew up the street to cause a distraction.

He didn't want to kill Sirius, he wanted to ruin his life.

:clap:Well done, rat-boy!
really clever!

ahhh very good suggestion i never thought of that....... wormtail knew that everything would point his way and he also new sirius would be in lord voldemorts way (wormtail knowing sirius was harry godfather)in the future so they needed to dispose of him........

[This is a long post, beware! :p]

Alright, my fellow advocates of Peter's intelligence, I've been thinking about some stuff lately in other threads about Peter's talents and abilities and thought I'd post it here.

ISSUE #1: Is Peter capable of wandless magic?
We've often wondered what curse Peter used to blow apart the street and kill twelve Muggles. Sirius states that Peter did so with his wand behind his back... but if his wand was behind his back, how does Sirius know that Peter did indeed use a wand? He might have assumed something was behind his back (Peter crossing his fingers, hoping his plan would work?), but really we don't know 100% for sure that it was Peter's wand, which leaves room for the possibility that Peter might have used wandless magic. Under great amounts of stress one can do unimaginable things with wandless magic; another instance where we've seen someone "blown up" with wandless magic is Aunt Marge, but of course she inflated rather than disintegrated. But Peter, who is on the run and trying to keep two steps ahead of Sirius Black, is no doubt under some degree of stress at that instance: could that be enough to trigger a huge wandless magic explosion?

Sub-question: was it Peter's intention to kill twelve Muggles? If he intentionally used wandless magic (as opposed to it just "happening" out of the blue), might he have tried to only fake his own death but the stress from the situation magified the effect of the spell, taking all the Muggles down with him?


ISSUE #2: Do Peter's animagus transformations make it easier for him to be an Occlumens?
We've discussed the possibility that Peter is an Occlumens earlier in this thread. While I don't believe he is an exceptional or even a great Occlumens, I do think he might be capable of a decent level of occlumency, enough to get him by at least. Anyway, I was recently struck by some similarities between animagus transformations and Legillimency / Occlumency skills. Bear with me while I draw some parallels. :p

Lupin describes Dementors (yes, this will lead somewhere) as follows:"Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this earth. They infest the darkest, filthiest places, they glory in decay and despair, they drain peace, hope and happiness out of the air around them. Even Muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them. Get too near a Dementor and every good feeling, every happy memory, will be sucked out of you."
Sirius says this in PoA about how he survived the Dementors in Azkaban:"I don't know how I did it," he said slowly. "I think the only reason I never lost my mind is that I knew I was innocent. That wasn't a happy thought, so the Dementors couldn't suck it out of me ... but it kept me sane and knowing who I am ... helped me keep my powers ... so when it all became ... too much ... I could transform in my cell ... become a dog. Dementors can't see, you know... " He swallowed. "They feel their way towards people by sensing their emotions ... they could tell that my feelings were less -- less human, less complex when I was a dog ... but they thought, of course, that I was losing my mind like everyone else in there, so it didn't trouble them."
So Lupin describes Dementors as being able to suck out memories from someone, and Sirius defended himself against them by making his mind less complex through animagus transformation. My point (yes, we're here!) is that this reminds me of the way Snape describes Legillimency / Occlumency:Snape looked back at him for a moment and then said contemptuously, "Surely even you could have worked that out by now, Potter? The Dark Lord is highly skilled at Legilimency --"

"What's that? Sir?"

"It is the ability to extract feelings and memories from another person's mind --"
And Snape describes how to block a Legilimens:"It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly. The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection."

[large snip]

"Clear your mind, Potter," said Snape's cold voice. "Let go of all emotion..."Now, I'm not suggesting that Dementors are legilimens or that their feeding on a person's memories works in the same way as legilimency; Dementors don't interpret they just feast on memories. But the way of battling a legilimens and the way Sirius battled the Dementors are oddly similar: they both require making one's mind less complex, less busy with emotion, emptying it of thoughts that could be used against one's self.

Which brings me back to Peter (finally!): he, too, was an animagus. Could the simplicity of his mind in rat form have assisted him in achieving even a minor degree of Occulmency talent? His simplistic mind as a rat might be good practice for clearing his mind as a human. It may not be enough to completely ward off Voldemort's mental intrusions, but it might have been enough to ward off other less skilled Legilimens.

In the books all talks abous Peter as a weak magician. I myself dont think so. Quite opposite, I do believe he was rather skillful and strong. This would explain all the feat we know he did.
How come he appears as a weak, almost squib?
1. His friend were the two strongest students in Hogwarts at the time. Lupin was considered weaker than them, yet we know Lupus was a first class wizard. Of course Peter was weak in comparison with them! The Alps are only half as big as Himalaya, yet they are quite big mountains on their own.
Besides, he did learn from his friends quite a lot, things he would never learn if alone. Good training and some natural gifts must have done a quite strong master of wizardry of him. Not any grandmaster, but still a master.


2. His personality. The man lacked backbone, everyone even his friends despised him - more or less. The marauders did, Voldemort did.
You diminish always him you despise.
3. Again his personality. He preferred to be a follower rather than one of the equals.
Of course he would be considered as weak - both by his comrades and by onlookers.

We've often wondered what curse Peter used to blow apart the street and kill twelve Muggles. Sirius states that Peter did so with his wand behind his back... but if his wand was behind his back, how does Sirius know that Peter did indeed use a wand? He might have assumed something was behind his back (Peter crossing his fingers, hoping his plan would work?). Maybe it was some sort of detonator (muggle or magical). That would tie-in with the idea that the whole thing was a set-up - Peter was ready for Sirius to arrive, had some sort of explosion planned, hand numbed ready for digital amputation, "how could you?" speech prepared, aurors tipped off and on their way and he'd even scouted out the nearest sewer for a quick gettaway.
Originally posted by grrliz
Do Peter's animagus transformations make it easier for him to be an Occlumens?
We've discussed the possibility that Peter is an Occlumens earlier in this thread. While I don't believe he is an exceptional or even a great Occlumens, I do think he might be capable of a decent level of occlumency, enough to get him by at least. Anyway, I was recently struck by some similarities between animagus transformations and Legillimency / Occlumency skills. [SNNIIIP!] Which brings me back to Peter (finally!): he, too, was an animagus. Could the simplicity of his mind in rat form have assisted him in achieving even a minor degree of Occulmency talent? His simplistic mind as a rat might be good practice for clearing his mind as a human. It may not be enough to completely ward off Voldemort's mental intrusions, but it might have been enough to ward off other less skilled Legilimens hmm, very interesting possiblity. I can see the relationship between occlumency and animal transformations, but I have some doubts.

Firstly*, Sirius isn't able to defend himself from the dementors by making his mind more dog like, he has to actually go through the process of transformation. Whilst an animagus chooses to transform, they don't appear to have much control over their transformations, other than when to do it. (I hope this is making sense). For instance, a wizard who elects to become an animagus cannot control which animal they become. I'm not sure to what extent Peter would be able to draw on experience of being a rat when he is in human form. I suppose he might be able to recall his "rat mind" and maybe this would help simplify his human mind, but I thought occlumency was actually a tremendously difficult, and complex mental process. Perhaps it would help Peter if he had some insight into what the end result should look like (similar to it being easier to bake a cake if there is a picture of the finished article in the cookbook) is that what you mean?

I'm intrigued by this idea, but my thoughts on it seem to be going around in circles at the moment... :huh: Maybe I'll come back to it later.

* I did have a secondly as well but, er, I forgot...
Originally posted by Schames
2. His personality. The man lacked backbone, everyone even his friends despised him - more or less. The marauders did, Voldemort did.
You diminish always him you despise The marauders were probably contemptuous of Peter, but I don't think they despised him. Lupin describes Peter as having been one of his "great friends" at school, James trusted him with his own life and lives of his wife and child and Sirius trusted him with his friends' and godson's lives and his own reputation. Not something you do to someone you despise. They saw - wrongly as it turned out - the quality in Peter which they valued above all else - loyalty.

James and Sirius were pretty catty to Peter in SWM, but I don't take that as a sign they despised him. They remind me a little of how many people treat their younger siblings - they say truly awful things to them at times, but still love them dearly. And it's pretty common for the bigger brothers to look down on and underestimate the little one, which is what James and Sirius seem to have done.

Voldemort, on the other hand, certainly does despise Peter. But then, Voldemort hates everyone doesn't he? (Tsk, that dark lord has issues right?! :evil: )

Perhaps it would help Peter if he had some insight into what the end result should look like (similar to it being easier to bake a cake if there is a picture of the finished article in the cookbook) is that what you mean?Sort of, yeah. Harry has trouble with Occlumency because he doesn't know how to clear his mind or what a clear mind looks / feels / sounds like, having never experienced it before. If Peter as an animagus has experienced that cleared, more simplistic mind it may very well be the equivalent of the cake in the cookbook (nice analogy, btw) for him.

In another thread, clkginny brought up an interesting detail regarding Peter's framing of Sirius:He is Voldemort's lackey, and I think he will remain so until almost the end. But, one thing I forgot to point out before: when Pettigrew confronts Sirius, it is described by Fudge (whose testimony may be questionable :evil: ) as being reduced to a finger and a pile of blood-stained robes. Which means he had to have prepared blood-stained robes before hand and had them ready to drop as he transformed. Another indication of fore thought.I'll repost my original response, but I'd also love to know what others think about Peter's apparent excessive bloodloss.I'm trying to think up various scenarios that might explain that blood (although I like your explanation best, naturally).

Why all the blood?



Animagus transformation causes spontaneous bloodshed. Unlikely.
Peter was injured in a duel / battle / fight / whatever.

Injured while fighting for Voldemort? Unlikely. Voldemort wouldn't want to risk losing his spy and thus his foot in the door of the Order of the Phoenix by placing him in risky death-defying situations where Peter could end up dead.* He needs his spy alive to do his dirty work.
Injured while fighting for the Order? Possibly. We don't really know what any of the Marauders were doing during the first war, beyond the fact that James and Lily thrice defied Voldemort. The Death Eaters outnumbered the Order twenty-to-one, so the Order would probably need all the help it could get from all members in fighting the DE. At the same time... there was an obvious underestimation of Peter's skills and talents on behalf of the entire Order, in which case would they really stick him on the front lines of battle where he could be injured, or would they relegate him to a less risky role like messenger or something like that?

If the blood was from a previous altercation, it's understandable why it might still be on his clothing. Blood is notoriously difficult to get out of clothing. But Peter is a wizard and I'm pretty sure a good scourgify could clean bloodied robes in a heartbeat. James could have done it for him. :evil: ;)
Peter cuts off his finger and the blood on his robes is from the self-amputation. This seems more plausible to me than any of the "bloodied while in battle" suggestions I've made. But this in turn raises a few more questions:


Just how much blood loss would occur from a finger being cut off? Is it enough to make robes look "bloodied"? I always pictured the robes as being covered in blood, and I wonder if I over-pictured the blood loss.
Does amputation of a digit result in projectile blood spray everywhere? It's not like he's slicing through his aorta where the pressure of the blood inside would be enough to spurt out six feet or so. It's just a finger, and the arteries therein are not that major and not under the same amount of bodily pressure. Would they really cause such blood staining on Peter's robes?

Peter put the blood there on purpose to add to the picture he painted to frame Sirius. :eyebrows: (Get it? Picture? Frame? Man, that was terrible.)
*This might be the one instance where Voldemort actually tried to ensure someone else's safety, which is interesting albeit self-serving

a good theory..wormtail is more powerful than he seems to be...he is very deceptive,i must say and cunning.pretending to be weak and harmless to his friends require high skill of deception..though he's from gryffindor,it doesn't mean he's not evil..

:tu: Excellent theorizing grrliz. If I had to guess, I’d say the blood on Peter’s robes was a combination between him planting it there to look like Sirius had done him serious bodily harm in an attempt to frame Sirius; and from cutting off his finger, which as you pointed out, would not result in an excessive amount of blood squirting out, but I do think it would have been sufficient to soil a good part of Peter’s robes. The way I see it, the blood was probably covering most of his robes, which I think makes sense if you are blown up (at least I would expect to see a good deal of blood on someone’s robes if they’d just been blown up).

As was argued, it seems unlikely the blood would have been left over from a previous battle, because (1) the robes could have been cleaned, and (2) if people had seen Peter going around with bloodstained robes, I think they would have been suspicious of him. First of all, when you see blood on someone’s clothes, it’s usually a suspicious sign. Second, his friends all believe he is rather weak and a bit cowardly, so I doubt they would have expected him to get into many battles. True, he did work for the Order, but he could certainly have done work other than fighting. So overall, going around with bloodstained robes it would have been awfully suspicious behavior on Peter’s part.

(2) if people had seen Peter going around with bloodstained robes, I think they would have been suspicious of him. First of all, when you see blood on someone’s clothes, it’s usually a suspicious sign. Second, his friends all believe he is rather weak and a bit cowardly, so I doubt they would have expected him to get into many battles.Also: not only getting into battles, but if they viewed him as a weakling then it would be highly suspicious that he ws surviving these bloody battles as well.

I was just getting into the swing of theorising about Peter's bloodstained robes when I realised he must have brought them with him. If he'd been wearing them they wouldn't have been found in the street, because animagi don't shed their clothes when they transform.

If he brought them with him, maybe that's also how he avoided being cursed by Sirius. Wormtail shoves a bundle of clothing down the front of his robes and when Sirius spots the bump he' thrown for a minute..."Peter, you can't be pregnant..." :shrug: :rotfl:

I was just getting into the swing of theorising about Peter's bloodstained robes when I realised he must have brought them with him. If he'd been wearing them they wouldn't have been found in the street, because animagi don't shed their clothes when they transform.You're totally right, which makes this even weirder. How does it work if you're wearing two layers of clothing? If Peter wears two robes, does the inner-robe get transfigured along with the rest of him while the outer-robe gets bloodied and falls to the ground?

Or -- working the Evil!Fudge angle here -- did Fudge plant the cloak? He's one of the first on the scene, he could clearly be planting evidence knowing Peter might not be able to do that part himself. Hmm.

If he brought them with him, maybe that's also how he avoided being cursed by Sirius. Wormtail shoves a bundle of clothing down the front of his robes and when Sirius spots the bump he' thrown for a minute..."Peter, you can't be pregnant..." :shrug: :rotfl:I cannot imagine what kind of fanfic you've been reading lately. ;) :p

Hmm, I wonder if he could have had the robes under a shrinking spell and then just enlarged them right before he transformed and blew up the street. One thing I was wondering about is that it seems a bit odd for the robes to have been intact after being in the very large explosion Peter created to blow up half the street. You'd think in addition to being bloody they'd have been a bit mangled or ripped or something.If he brought them with him, maybe that's also how he avoided being cursed by Sirius. Wormtail shoves a bundle of clothing down the front of his robes and when Sirius spots the bump he' thrown for a minute..."Peter, you can't be pregnant...":shrug: :rotfl: :lol:

No one ever said that the robes were intact. Of course, no one said they weren't either. In theory, it was a "surprise attack" which means that Sirius might not have noticed all the details. Crowded street, Pettigrew yells and *poof* explosion, rat running away, and some bloody robes lying there, while people scream and sewer water sprays all over. Frankly, I'm surprised that Sirius managed to see Pettigrew high-tailing it.
Fudge's testimony is still suspect, by either possible exaggeration or collusion with Voldemort and company, so it is hard telling what exactly transpired.

He could not be as powerful as others but I think, there's something with Wormtail that is not yet revealed...

If I had to guess, I’d say the blood on Peter’s robes was and from cutting off his finger, which as you pointed out, would not result in an excessive amount of blood squirting out, but I do think it would have been sufficient to soil a good part of Peter’s robes.
The way I see it, the blood was probably covering most of his robes, which I think makes sense if you are blown up (at least I would expect to see a good deal of blood on someone’s robes if they’d just been blown up).
I agree with you on the first part, but I don’t think the blood was covering most of the robes. I do think that the amount of blood that would come from cutting off a finger would be enough to call them "bloodstained".

Here's some powers of Peter Pettigrew for everyone to ponder, unless these are being discussed somewhere else:

He knows that Harry fears Dementors and, oh my, why Lord Voldemort has just recruited a legion of them into his Dark Army. And Ron fears spiders? Interesting, interesting weapons here. And Harry speaks parseltongue? Most likely gained that power the night Voldemort lost his body? Harry plays Quidditch, sometimes practises late into the night or starts before the sun rises, with no teachers supervising him? He owns an invisibility cloak, and a map that shows everybody inside Hogwarts? I think we could start an entire thread dedicated to Things Peter Heard That May Come Back To Haunt The Trio.

The problem is he obviously isn't telling Voldemort everything, or else he wouldn't have needed Kreacher to tell him that Harry and Sirius were close. Then again Pettigrew may have been too busy being chained up to notice the "Come and live with me?" "You bet, when can I move in?" exchange. But Voldy should have known that Harry can sense him long before Book 5. Didn't harry have any scar-hurting-Voldemort-is-near moments in Book 1? He could be paying his life-debt to Harry already by keeping certain things secret.

And you'd be surprised how much we bleed. I got a paper cut the other day and didn't do anything and before I knew it blood was already running down my hand. I was surprised that Peter didn't bleed to death in the graveyard. So yes, cut off a finger and you will bleed. Especially your thumb. The veins and arteries that run down your wrist end in your thumb. That's why you never take anyone's pulse with your thumb, because you may be feeling your own pulse and not the unconscious victim's. I know Pettigrew cut off his index finger, but that would still bleed very badly.

I think we could start an entire thread dedicated to Things Peter Heard That May Come Back To Haunt The Trio.:lol: You bring up a very good point! I don't think we've ever actually discussed all the "insider" information that Peter may be privy to. I actually do think that Peter is keeping information from Voldemort, for one reason or another, although I'm not sure what those reasons might be at this point. At the start of GoF he suggests to Voldemort that they could arrange Voldemort's return to his body without using Harry, which suggests Peter has at the very least some desire to spare Harry's life. I wonder how much of what he knows about the boy he's keeping to himself in order to prolong Harry's life. {Is this Peter's non-confrontational way of repaying the life-debt? :huh:}

I definitely agree that Peter knows Ron feels spiders (will Voldemort be recruiting Acromantula?), but I'm not sure he knows that he knows Harry fears Dementors per se. He was in the train when Harry first encountered a Dementor, but at that point Harry didn't really realise he feared them; he doesn't figure that out until his first DADA lesson with Lupin, which I think Scabbers was absent for. From Peter's point of view on the train, it looked like the Dementor was trying to suck Harry's soul and so it would be hard to tell that Harry was scared of them since the Dementor is the one doing all the action.

One day I'm going to go through the first three books and highlight every reference to Scabbers to see just exactly what he overheard! :)

I was surprised that Peter didn't bleed to death in the graveyard.Actually, so was I. And I'm actually surprised he didn't make a bigger deal about it. I mean, if someone cut my hand off you can bet I'd be screaming at the top of my lungs!

I actually do think that Peter is keeping information from Voldemort, for one reason or another, although I'm not sure what those reasons might be at this point. It had actually crossed my mind that perhaps Peter has higher ambitions than just being another one of Voldie's minions. Sort of like one of those comic book plots, where the lowly, put-upon assistant silently and steathily awaits for the proper moment and then -- overthrows his master so he alone can rule the world! :elaugh:

(Okay, well, maybe not, but I do have a reputation to maintain... :lol: )

Anyway, what still haunts me is the shrieking shack scene where Peter begs, "What was there to be gained by resisting?" I can't help but think JKR is too careful of a writer to use that particular phrasing without intending to say ambition is a driving factor in Peter's character. If that is the case -- what value does withholding information bring to him? Is it a bargaining chip perhaps? I think we could start an entire thread dedicated to Things Peter Heard That May Come Back To Haunt The Trio. That is a brilliant point. This passage always intrigued me...
"Yes," said Harry. "Professor -- I was in Divination just now, and --er-- I fell asleep."

He hesitated here wondering if a reprimand was coming, but Dumbledore merely said, "Quite understandable. Continue."

"Well, I had a dream, " said Harry. "A dream about Lord Voldemort. He was torturing Wormtail...you know who Wormtail--"

"I do know," said Dumbledore promptly. "Please continue."One of those cut off sentences again. Who's DD afraid will overhear the identity of Wormtail -- and why??

By the way, grrliz -- I got an email from the dark lord as well. Looks like he's found a new way to terrorize muggles -- Spam!! :rotfl:

I actually do think that Peter is keeping information from Voldemort, for one reason or another, although I'm not sure what those reasons might be at this point. At the start of GoF he suggests to Voldemort that they could arrange Voldemort's return to his body without using Harry, which suggests Peter has at the very least some desire to spare Harry's life. I wonder how much of what he knows about the boy he's keeping to himself in order to prolong Harry's life.Perhaps in not revealing certain bits of information, Peter is saving some of his “cards”, so to speak, so if Voldemort ever asks for information he knows, he can demonstrate his knowledge and his usefulness. I agree it is very interesting that Wormtail should be hesitant to use Harry in order to revive him. Maybe he knew about the life debt on some level once he thought about what Harry had done, and he was a little leery of using Harry’s blood because he figured it might enhance this life debt (ie he was thinking about his own well-being rather than Voldemort’s). That might be a little far-fetched, but there is another possibility. Perhaps he was thinking about what this would mean for Voldemort if he used Harry’s blood- the blood of his most threatening enemy. I wonder if Peter thought this would be detrimental to Voldemort in some way. I don’t know if Peter knew about the fact that Voldemort couldn’t touch Harry because of the “love” magic instilled in him by Lily, but if he did, perhaps Peter thought this would weaken his master if he used Harry’s blood. He may have been afraid to say so, as Voldemort would likely have flipped out since he believes himself to be nearly invincible (no villian likes to hear about possible weaknesses they might have from their bumbling sidekick) :rolleyes: . The third possibility could be, as you suggest, a subconscious way of repaying the life debt that Peter has, ie he is guided by magic to prolong Harry’s life or keep Harry out of danger and away from Voldemort. I find this possibility to be quite intriguing. :agree:

Off topic, but, now that you bring it up...

It actually always annoys me how Dumbledore reacts to ANY vision Harry has. Especially Trelawney's second prophecy. Just read the dialogue of that conversation:

"Hey professor, Trelawney went all funny today and made some really wacked out predictions. Something about the Dark Lord rising again. So it's all my fault that I let Wormtail get away."
"It's okay Harry, didn't using the Time-Turner show you how our actions have really wonky consequences? By the way, Wormtail owes you one."

It I were Dumbledore I would have extracted Harry's memory of the prophecy and looked at the correct, word-for-word version in the pensive, not Harry's stuttering summary.

This means Dumbledore:
-Knew that the prophecy would come, and knew what Trelawney would say already (time-turner anyone?)
-Was present at the time the prophecy was made, so knew it already (the wasp in the window perhaps. Harry does seem to have a LOT of visions with wasps and flies around.)
-Does not care to hear the exact wording of the prophecy.

-Was present at the time the prophecy was made, so knew it already (the wasp in the window perhaps. Harry does seem to have a LOT of visions with wasps and flies around.)OH. MY. GOD. There's a wasp in the window in that scene?! I never noticed, but that is intense. Why? Because guess what the name Dumbledore means (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/dumbledore.html#Name):Dumbledore is an old English word for bumblebee, according to JKR, who says that she imagines him wandering around the castle humming to himself.
::edit:: I just went back to read where she makes the prediction and couldn't find a wasp in the window, although I did only just skim through it. Could you post the passage it appears in? Because now that you mention it, it is odd that Dumbledore doesn't press Harry for the exact wording of the prophecy.

This means Dumbledore:
-Knew that the prophecy would come, and knew what Trelawney would say already (time-turner anyone?)
-Was present at the time the prophecy was made, so knew it already (the wasp in the window perhaps. Harry does seem to have a LOT of visions with wasps and flies around.)
-Does not care to hear the exact wording of the prophecy.

There is no wasp in that scene. I think Dumbledore knows the exact wording of the prophecy from his skills as an Occlumens. Later on in the chapter, it says "Harry couldn't imagine when that would be. Dumbledore looked as if he knew what Harry was thinking." Although this takes places after Harry tells Dumbledore about the prophecy, from what we see in "Occlumency" in Order of the Phoenix, Harry's thoughts could have come in flashes, and one such "flash" could very well be the prophecy.

Another possibility is Dumbledore is such a good legilimens that he could control what he saw and managed to see the entire prophecy as Harry was telling him about it. We're told in Order of the Phoenix that one needs eye contact for occlumency and the book says that Harry was staring up at Dumbledore as he told him about Trelawney's prophecy.

I don't think a time turner was used just because, with Dumbledore's skills, it seems a bit useless and a waste. Time is not something to be meddled with carelessly, as J.K. Rowling makes clear in Prisoner of Azkaban, so Dumbledore wouldn't use time travel unless it was absolutely necessesary.

Okay, I'm going to switch the subject back for a minute.

Pettigrew and the life debt: Pettigrew did try to convince Voldemort to use someone else, but he failed. He took no action after that to try and help Harry. (I have heard theories about him intentionally letting Crouch Sr. go, but I think that was an accident. Unless further evidence surfaces) Tho whole time in the graveyard Pettigrew did nothing to assist Harry, to attempt to slow it down, to repay his "life debt" at all. As a matter of fact, I get the distinct impression that Pettigrew (if Voldemort had succeeded) would have been standing over Harry's body still saying "Yes, Dark Lord." So, now I'm wondering exactly how this Life Debt idea is supposed to work.

Back on general topic: the only scene I remember with a wasp in during History of Magic O.W.L.'s when Harry has his vision of Sirius being tortured.

Harry does seem to have a LOT of visions with wasps and flies around.)
. other than the Wimbourn Wasp and Hermione acting Waspishly there are only two mentions of wasps in all the books
Just before the third task

"Good training for when we're all Aurors," said Ron excitedly, attempting the Impediment Curse on a wasp that had buzzed into the room and making it stop dead in midair.

during Harry’s exams
Turn over your papers,' said Professor Marchbanks from the front of the Hall, flicking over the giant hourglass. 'You may begin '
Harry stared fixedly at the first question. It was several seconds before it occurred to him that he had not taken in a word of it; there was a wasp buzzing distractingly against one of the high windows. Slowly, tortuously, he at last began to write an answer.
None of which seem to be very insightful or helpful :evil:

It actually always annoys me how Dumbledore reacts to ANY vision Harry has. Especially Trelawney's second prophecy. Just read the dialogue of that conversation:

"Hey professor, Trelawney went all funny today and made some really wacked out predictions. Something about the Dark Lord rising again. So it's all my fault that I let Wormtail get away." "It's okay Harry, didn't using the Time-Turner show you how our actions have really wonky consequences? By the way, Wormtail owes you one."

It I were Dumbledore I would have extracted Harry's memory of the prophecy and looked at the correct, word-for-word version in the pensive, not Harry's stuttering summary.

This means Dumbledore:
-Knew that the prophecy would come, and knew what Trelawney would say already (time-turner anyone?) -Was present at the time the prophecy was made, so knew it already (the wasp in the window perhaps. Harry does seem to have a LOT of visions with wasps and flies around.) -Does not care to hear the exact wording of the prophecy.

I totally agree with you, And I think that is Dumbledore´s plan, the one he talks about at the end od OotP. I think Dumlbedore time travels a lot in order to make sure everything is going right. he wants Voldemort to be killed.
Dumbledore is not surprised by anything harry tells him, it like he already knew it.
IIn my opinion Dumbledore knew Sirius was innocent when he was sent to azcaban but he didn´t say anything because he wanted Peter to live. why? because he knew Peter would bring Voldemort back to life and that would be very important (I don´t know why, but remember he´s look of triumph)
Dumbledore knows a lot, and I think, he already knows the end of the story.

Considering that all the events of POA had taken place by the time Dumbledore found out about Trelawney's prophecy, he wouldn't be surprised. He had already talked to Sirius, sent Hermione and Harry back in time, they had already rescued Buckbeak and Sirius, all of this happened before Dumbledore learned the prophecy.

Also, considering the fact that Dumbledore knew that Trelawney is capable of predicting something accurately, even if only once, he wouldn't be shocked that she had done it again. Especially when both prophecies relate to Voldemort.

See Pettigrew's Predictions by yours truly for my theory on Pettigrew

Great thread! I think that the power part of your theory works, and I actually believe that there's a lot more to Pettigrew than anyone realizes, but remember when you're working for Voldemort, LV makes the plans. I think he could have received help in staying hidden.

I'm afraid we've always underestimated Peter Pettigrew in the same way we underestimated "p-p-poor, st-st-stuttering" Professor Quirrel. If you look closely at his *dark* accomplishments, you can see that he is a powerful wizard, at least when his own life is in danger. Does Voldemort know the extent of Pettigrew's magical powers? The facade Pettigrew puts up is convincing. Voldemort could truly believe that Pettigrew is an abysmal wizard, or he could just be putting down Pettigrew in every way he can to make him think that no one else would accept Pettigrew on his own, as a singularly powerful wizard.

i think that there is something about Peter Pettigrew that is not relieved yet and it deals with the HP series plot. In my opinion Peter will be a very major character.

Speaking of Peter, there was a Peter question about this very topic in the Mugglenet poll. :eyebrows: :p

MODS: I had a search, but I couldn't find anything. If there is feel free to delete etc.

We are told throughout the series what a weak and feeble wizard Peter is, and indeed he certainly seems so in Spinner's End, he is forced to be Snape's servant. In Snape's Worst Memory we also see the boy who could only remember three of the five signs for identifying a werewolf - despite running around with one every month. How does this tie in with the man who managed to kill 12 muggles and blow up the sewers with a single curse? The fake Moody said in The Unforgivable Curses that the Avada Kedavra curse required a lot of power behind it. So how much power does Peter have? If he were to take full advantage of these powers, imagine what he could do...

Its always been quite vague when it came down to Peter killing those 12 muggles. They always refer to it as a single curse but never the avada kedvra. From the description I more inclined to think its a blowing up charm, so may he never even intended to kill them all he. Not sure how much power is needed to blow something up but it might have not been that hard, they may have just hit by rubble or something.

I dont doubt him that much though, he became an animagi in his fifth year and he did finish Hogwarts. I just dont think hes anything spectactular.

I think fake-Moody was only comparing the required power for AK to the powers possessed by his fourth-year students, not adult wizards. As you learn and develop magic at Hogwarts, your power grows. Fake-Moody's fourth-year class just wasn't developed enough to cast AK at their stage of magical training.

The curse Peter used seems to be a more powerful version of the Reductor Curse. Hopefully we will find more about Dark Arts spells in Book 7.

I have wondered about wormtail as well, something tells me that he may be one of the more powerful wizards that we meet

i have no doubt that wormtail is a pitiful wizard.. i think this is one of the few areas in which JK hasnt tried to be misleading in any way shape or form..

and an AK isnt the only way to kill.. sectum-sempra for example..

its just a dark curse that causes an explosion, maybe he did even hit the gas lines like the wizards said when covering it up, although that probably wouldve killed him too..

we also see a series of instances where there is a loud bang followed by a silver thing that, by description, sounds very similar to bullet which flies past the cursees head.. i dont think there has been an instance where this curse has been used successfully.. i think thatd be a killer too.. whatever the case, we shall see come book 7

It sounds to me like
pettigrew done something simple (probabbly dark)
after all 12 muggles (muggles are percieved as very weak)
and by the sounds of it thats a very powerful killing curse which can only be used on one person but is unblockable.

I am compelled to the point that he either cornered Sirius in a refinary or petrol station of somewort, then either used the Reductor curse, a more powerful Dark Arts varient or the Incendio charm for fire, knowing how flammable Gas or Petrol is being a muggle :'(

In book 3, Ern says to stan that the muggles reported it as a Gas explosion, and we know the lack of fine subtleties wizards have when it comes to differant elements of our technology.

Peter's powers have always mystified me:

1. He killed 12 people with one curse and managed to fool the surrounding people into thinking it was Sirius while turning into a rat at the same time. He must have used non-verbal incantation also.

2. He cut off his finger/arm

3. He A-K'd Cedric Diggory

4. He did become a good animagi even though he had a lot of help initially

I don't know, he seems a lot more powerful than people take him for.

Cheers

Although I've always seen Peter as the "weaker" marauder in terms of magical abilities, I don't think we should confuse cowardice with knowledge and or magical prowess. Peter seems to be an adult wizard of sufficient skills and he's certainly demostrated that throughout the series. I don't think there's anything extraordinary about him, however, and due to biased reasons,(I admit) I don't think we'll find out anything extraordinary about him in book 7 either. Regardless of whether he pays back the life debt or not, Peter to me will always be a horrible, sneaky little traitor rat. :grumble:

^He's definitely a horrible, sneaky, little traitor rat! I still wonder what bravery he has shown to prove that he belonged in Gryffindor??? Maybe that's still to come. He seems to just want to stay alive no matter what the cost. Living as a rat for years on end, giving Voldemort information and helping him in order to not be killed or tortured. He must be an adequate wizard, though at times it's hard to see through his seeming cowardice.

I was just discussing this with people! I think everyone has highly underestimated Peter's abilities. Yes, he does try to associate himself with the biggest bullies on the playground, but his powers that we know he's shown are far from being small. Now don't get me wrong, I don't like Peter, for he is a weasely, sneaky, and weak individual.

However, he has shown great courage, even if its not courage that anyone would apporve of: he handed over two of his best friends to Voldemort. I think that's both courageous and very terribly awful. But it took guts to do it. He somehow was never suspected of being a spy for Voldemort. He went back to Voldemort, which is very odd to me. If I were him, I would've moved to Antarctica or something instead of going back. that's pretty couragous.

He blew apart a city block, killing 12 people, faked his own death, and avoided capture for 12 years. That's not only strategic but its' pretty amazing and not to mention slick. He also showed great strategy by placing himself, in his rat form, at a Wizarding household so he may be informed of any news.

He was also capable of conducting the difficult concoction that brought Voldmeort back to a body. And he showed further courage by chopping off his own hand to do so.

I've always seen Peter as weak, but also not open enough to his friends, etc. enough for them to know that he's not an incapable wizard. I see a lot of him in Neville. throughout Neville's life, his family and classmates and teachers (coughSnapecough) have done nothing to improve his self esteem. But recently, after he's gotten a little more confidence he's been proving to be a truely reliable and capable wizard. We know (because we've seen) that even Wormtail's friends in school put him down.

Although, I really don't like him, I think he's got a definate redeeming quality to him that might somehow come into play when he pays back the life debt he owes Harry.

potmonst, I merged your thread with this thread on Peter because it didn't contain any HBP spoilers. So this is just a reminder to everyone to keep HBP spoilers out of this thread. :)

I hate him! He Sent Sirius to Azkaban. I will never forgive him for that!

This is an amazing topic, i seamed to me that in the books wormail was horribly overlooked he was only known as the traitor who killer twelve people blamed it on sirus, joined voldemort was scabbers the rat.

iv'e always found peter to be an interesting charecter, people overlook the fact that he was very powerful killing twelve people, cunning by blaming it on sirus and also by faking his own death

people streotype him as heatless, cold, traitor. i think that maybe peter regrets his choces.

but i notices something, wormtail may have betryed his friends but he never killed them, he framed sirus but maybe he did that to keep lord voldemert from killing him, voldemort killed james and lilly not him, lupin is still alive, which proves something, that may be cowardness but i think he might have some good left in him, he was reluctant the ct off his hand and it seemed like he wanted to betray voldemort at one point.

since he was scabbers all tose years wouldn't he have though to kill harry since ron was harry's best friend and he was ron's pet rat. he could have changed into his human form and killed him in his sleep.