Discussion of a possible Pureblood Supremacist Agenda? [Archive]

HermioneLuna

October 25th, 2004, 2:56 am

I did. :blush: I'll change it.

Peter was Scabbers.

You didn't have to. I was kidding. But thanks anyway. I had totally neglected the Scabbers part of it. I was thinking something else entirely and I was confused. Anyway, you made a lot of good points in your initial post. I'm going to have to think about some the questions you asked before I answer them. But there are a couple I can answer now.

Why did the Dark Lord tell Harry his mother didn't have to die?

I don't think Voldemort wanted to kill Lily. Ironic, though, since she was a muggle born witch who mothered the child who could stop him. Maybe, in his mind leaving Lily without Harry or James would be more torture for her than killing her. Possible counter argument: Voldemort thinks nothing is worse than death. True, but Voldemort also tortures his victims. That could have been his way of torturing Lily before ultimately killing her at some time other than that night at Godric's Hollow.

That offers my thoughts on why Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily, but the question is why did Voldemort tell Harry that Lily didn't have to die. Maybe Voldemort just wasn't thinking when he said it. Maybe he thought Lily was a fool for refusing to step aside and wanted Harry to view Lily that way as well. Voldemort might want Harry to blame Lily for leaving him (Harry) an orphan. If Lily didn't have to die, but chose to anyway, then Voldemort could claim it was Lily's fault she died, not his, even if he was the one who killed her. This probably makes perfectly logical sense in Voldemort's mind. Voldemort didn't know that Lily saved Harry when he made that remark.

Who does Voldemort believe is his most faithful servant?

I think that he thought his most faithful servant was Barty Crouch, but now Crouch Jr. is worse than useless to Voldemort. That means that Voldemort probably doesn't care at all about Crouch Jr. anymore. I don't think he lost much sleep over it. Now I think the position of most faithful servant is probably between Bellatrix and Snape. Bellatrix said she was trained by Voldemort himself. She also said she was Voldemort's most faithful servant, and he never refuted it. Snape may be on the good side now, (maybe, possibly) but Voldemort may still consider him to be a faithful servant. We don't know where he was when Voldemort rose again, and we can reasonably infer that Voldemort's faithful Death Eater at Hogwarts was Crouch Jr., but it might be Snape as well.

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 3:07 am

That offers my thoughts on why Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily, but the question is why did Voldemort tell Harry that Lily didn't have to die. Maybe Voldemort just wasn't thinking when he said it. Maybe he thought Lily was a fool for refusing to step aside and wanted Harry to view Lily that way as well. Voldemort might want Harry to blame Lily for leaving him (Harry) an orphan. If Lily didn't have to die, but chose to anyway, then Voldemort could claim it was Lily's fault she died, not his, even if he was the one who killed her. This probably makes perfectly logical sense in Voldemort's mind. Voldemort didn't know that Lily saved Harry when he made that remark.

Or maybe Lily wasn't part of the larger picture, or the deeper plotline. Then again, maybe Lily and her ancient magic have a "DaVinci Code" element to them.

So what do Lucius, Molly and Snape have in common? Is it a pureblood mania seperate from the activities of the DL? And is Snape, Regulus? Is there something about the tapestry, "Toujours Pur" and Sirius assertion that his family thought Voldemort was on the right track until they found out what he was willing to do to get power, a hint about the true plotline of the story?
"No, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge. They weren't alone, either, there were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his true colours, who thought he had the right idea about things... they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first."

Is this why he despised Kreacher? Was Kreacher a part of this deeper "Merovingian style" undercurrent? Kreacher tells Sirius that he was such a disappointment to his mother. Why? Who exactly is this eldest and possibly last son of the house of Black? Is he really dead? Or if Snape is Regulus, where does this leave him?

Then again, maybe Dean Thomas is the last Black, and the Half Blood Prince.

Does this have a lot less to do with Voldemort than we're been led to think?

A long time ago, Masterfroggy suggested that the man Harry saw yelling at the cringing woman in Snape's memory wasn't his father, but his grandfather. He speculated that Snape's mother had married outside the pureblood community and aroused the anger of her father by having a less than pureblood child.

This scenario may also explain why a young Mrs Riddle, abandoned by her muggle husband, had no friends or family to look after her half blood child and was forced to leave him in a muggle orphanage.
:huh:

Something to think about.

ECP

October 25th, 2004, 3:18 am

i think the Black's are gone. period. that was part of the drama of Sirius' death, that he was the last of the line. And wouldn't whatever his name was in the picture frame have kept tabs on his family? i think the Blacks are extinct.

then again, didn't Sirius say that Regulus had been killed by some deatheaters?

so snape couldn't be regulus, could he?

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 3:42 am

Whether Snape could be Regulus has been debated and there's more than one school of thought. It's impossible to know for sure until JKR tells us of course, but the interaction between Sirius and Snape in the kitchen of Grimmauld Place looked very much like brothers who despised each other.

If the deeper plot is that the Blacks are a royal family, convinced that to be a Black made you practically royal and Sirius, the Crown Prince, refused to adhere to the family philosophy, first running away to the muggle loving Potters, and then living off his inheritance from his uncle, could there be medieval style court intrigues to eliminate him and everyone associated with him in order to put the second son, (Regulus means Little King) into the first position? And wouldn't it just frost the cake if Dean was Sirius' half blood son?

Chievrefueil

October 25th, 2004, 3:43 am

I don't think Snape is Regulus. Even though Sirius didn't think much of Regulus's "politics," he seems to speak of him with some affection.

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 3:46 am

Is the pureblood mania related to conspiracies to return a long lost Royal family to power?

If all the Blacks are dead, Draco's position as the oldest male offspring of a Black, also becomes interesting. :huh:

grrliz

October 25th, 2004, 4:08 am

Oh yay, this thread should be fun!
Peter Pettigrew however remained safe in the household of Molly Weasley.Peter Pettigrew has more power than we think (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=34211). Was there a secret partnership forged between Molly and Peter? Molly wasn't in the Order the first time round though; how would she have met Peter? Was she in league with the Dark Lord? Did Voldemort make arrangements between the two of them for Peter to stay with the Weasleys once he had ratted out the Potters?

(I can't remember, is it you, whiz, who thinks Molly is in league with Voldemort, or is that someone else?)

Why did the Dark Lord tell Harry his mother didn't have to die?What's interesting is that first Voldemort tells Harry that his parents "died begging me for mercy..." which is of course a blatant lie and Harry tells him so. But then Voldemort switches tactics; he begins to tell the truth. He says "I always value bravery ... Yes, boy, your parents were brave ... I killed your father first and he put up a courageous fight ..." We know this to be true from Harry hearing James fighting Voldemort during his Dementor-induced flashbacks in PoA. Voldemort then says "... but your mother needn't have died..." Why switch back to lying at this point? He talks of bravery, how the Potters were brave. He mentions that Lily "was trying to protect you"... she got in the way, she was not part of the plan. Why did she not need to die? He had to kill James to get to Harry; might James not needed to have died either? Lily's death, as phrased by Voldemort, seems accidental, or rather, a mere side effect of his ultimate goal of killing Harry. But we know that Voldemort and his Death Eaters had no qualms about killing tons of people; why not kill the Potters for no reason at all, as an added bonus to killing Harry?

Who does Voldemort believe is his most faithful servant?I've entertained thoughts that Voldemort doesn't actually have a favourite Death Eater, someone he thinks is most loyal to him. Each one of them is as expendable as the next. Yes, each serves his or her own purpose in turn; Voldemort wouldn't be where is today without Wormtail's clever kidnapping of Bertha Jorkins or Barty Crouch Jr's transformation of the Triwizard Cup into a portkey. But Voldemort never has just one plan;that would be foolhardy at best, downright jeopardizing at worst. If Wormtail and BC Jr hadn't arrived at key moments, Voldemort would simply bide his time until someone else came along. He waited eleven long years before running into Quirrell; surely he can stand to wait longer. As he says in GoF, "I have waited thirteen years. A few more months will make no difference." The one thing Voldemort had in spades was time (he doesn't have that now that the Ministry will no doubt have to announce his rebirth).

And so if each Death Eater is very much expendable, what does that do to the idea of who is his most faithful servant? I think Voldemort has a little King Lear in him: he plays his Death Eaters off one another, trying to get them to "prove" their loyalty to him. Doesn't Bellatrix try to claim that she is Voldemort's most loyal servant? (I don't remember where, exactly.) The other Death Eaters fight amongst themselves to be the one to hand the prophecy over to Voldemort; they don't worry about helping those who go down in the fight, they worry about being the one who will recieve the personal thanks of the Dark Lord after handing him the knowledge contained in the orb.

Whether Snape could be Regulus has been debated and there's more than one school of thought. It's impossible to know for sure until JKR tells us of course, but the interaction between Sirius and Snape in the kitchen of Grimmauld Place looked very much like brothers who despised each other.

If the deeper plot is that the Blacks are a royal family,
convinced that to be a Black made you practically royal
and Sirius, the Crown Prince, refused to adhere to the family philosophy, first running away to the muggle loving Potters, and then living off his inheritance from his uncle, could there be medieval style court intrigues to eliminate him and everyone associated with him in order to put the second son, (Regulus means Little King) into the first position?Hmm. The Merovingian line of kings were established by Childeric in 5th century Gaul. His son, Clovis, united a single kingdom in Gaul and sought to extend its borders and bring more territory under his control. He chased the Visigoths (mudbloods? :huh: ) from Gaul. When Clovis died, rather than one, eldest son inheriting the throne, his kingdom was divided into three kingdoms, one for each of his sons. Thus, not only did the firstborn son become king, but so did the subsequent sons. All male heirs in the Merovingian line grew their hair long; it was a link to their ancestry, a way to establish their connection to their royal dynasty. Have we not heard of at least one long haired Black? :huh:

And wouldn't it just frost the cake if Dean was Sirius' half blood son?I've been hoping for Sirius to have an illegitimate son for ages now (seriously, check out the All About Sirius thread, Arithmancy has great theories about this).

If all the Blacks are dead, Draco's position as the oldest male offspring of a Black, also becomes interesting. :huh:Yes, exactly! I've never understood that Sirius is the "last Black" since there are still female Blacks in existence, and at least one of them has a male son. The bloodline continues. I wonder if Draco will realise the position this puts him in as well.

Barbara Kennedy

October 25th, 2004, 4:28 am

You might want these threads for information.
(psst - it's spelled 'agenda')

Why was Lily killed? aka Why didn't Voldemort want to kill Lily? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=1361)
How Harry and Voldemort both survived-the “crucial and central” question (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=23956)
Theory on “The Crucial Question” (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=29583)
Which side is Snape really on?V.2 ( http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=31477)
Why are the Malfoys still friends with Snape? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16205)
Why does Dumbledore trust Snape? Will something major be revealed? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=32357)
Do you think Voldemort knows Snape is a spy? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16339)
Snape at Godric’s Hollow? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=30845)
Severus Snape/Regulus Black (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=17441)
Why did Snape join Voldemort in the first place? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=8253)
Snape and Sirius (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20857)
Trust Snape – NEVER! (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=29163)
Will we ever find out the truth about Professor Snape? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=33721)
Will Snape have to kill for Lord Voldemort? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=36519)

HermioneLuna

October 25th, 2004, 4:40 am

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 4:49 am

Oh yay, this thread should be fun!
Peter Pettigrew has more power than we think (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=34211). Was there a secret partnership forged between Molly and Peter? Molly wasn't in the Order the first time round though; how would she have met Peter? Was she in league with the Dark Lord? Did Voldemort make arrangements between the two of them for Peter to stay with the Weasleys once he had ratted out the Potters?

(I can't remember, is it you, whiz, who thinks Molly is in league with Voldemort, or is that someone else?) You're right there. I did think that Molly was Voldemort's "most trusted servant." But now I suspect there is a plotline that runs deeper than the Harry / Voldemort plot. Sirius says that his family and other pureblood maniacs thought that Voldemort had the right idea until they found out what he was willing to do to get power. Why? Is the deeper plotline about a secret agenda to return a pureblood royal family to power? Is Voldemort a challenge to that agenda? Were all their hopes hanging on the crown prince, Sirius Black?
Sirius' attitude made it necessary to eliminate him and anyone who might have known of his royal identity and the intention to return the royal house to power. With Sirius gone, there are three possible "next in lines" Regulus, if he's alive, Dean Thomas, if he is the half blood son of either Sirius or Regulus, and his half blood status might eliminate him, or Draco Malfoy. :scared:

What's interesting is that first Voldemort tells Harry that his parents "died begging me for mercy..." which is of course a blatant lie and Harry tells him so. But then Voldemort switches tactics; he begins to tell the truth. He says "I always value bravery ... Yes, boy, your parents were brave ... I killed your father first and he put up a courageous fight ..." We know this to be true from Harry hearing James fighting Voldemort during his Dementor-induced flashbacks in PoA. Voldemort then says "... but your mother needn't have died..." Why switch back to lying at this point?...
He mentions that Lily "was trying to protect you"... she got in the way, she was not part of the plan. Maybe she was not part of Voldemort's plan. :eyebrows: Why did she not need to die? He had to kill James to get to Harry; might James not needed to have died either? Lily's death, as phrased by Voldemort, seems accidental, or rather, a mere side effect of his ultimate goal of killing Harry. But we know that Voldemort and his Death Eaters had no qualms about killing tons of people; why not kill the Potters for no reason at all, as an added bonus to killing Harry? I don't see where Harry fits in yet, except that he was important in the chessgame. He took out Voldemort and Voldemort, a half blood, was probably seen as a threat to the plans to return the Royal House to power. They still need Harry because Voldemort is still a threat. But the question that JKR posed concerning how both Voldemort and Harry survived in Godric's Hollow may have something to do with Snape, the racist potions master.

I've entertained thoughts that Voldemort doesn't actually have a favourite Death Eater, someone he thinks is most loyal to him. Each one of them is as expendable as the next...

The one thing Voldemort had in spades was time (he doesn't have that now that the Ministry will no doubt have to announce his rebirth).

And so if each Death Eater is very much expendable, what does that do to the idea of who is his most faithful servant? Or does he even have one at all? Who does he think is his most faithful servant? Voldemort mentioned that his MFS was at Hogwarts. :huh: Snape? But I'm thinking that Snape, Molly, Malfoy and probably Pettigrew are part of a conspiracy that is larger than the threat posed by Voldemort. I think Voldemort has a little King Lear in him: he plays his Death Eaters off one another, trying to get them to "prove" their loyalty to him. That's a good point. Interesting ........
Hmm. The Merovingian line of kings were established by Childeric in 5th century Gaul. His son, Clovis, united a single kingdom in Gaul and sought to extend its borders and bring more territory under his control. He chased the Visigoths (mudbloods? :huh: ) from Gaul. When Clovis died, rather than one, eldest son inheriting the throne, his kingdom was divided into three kingdoms, one for each of his sons. Thus, not only did the firstborn son become king, but so did the subsequent sons. All male heirs in the Merovingian line grew their hair long; it was a link to their ancestry, a way to establish their connection to their royal dynasty. Have we not heard of at least one long haired Black? :huh: The Merovingian line was also believed by some to be descended from Christ through the son born to Mary Magdalene. The Line was not just Royal, but "divine." The stories go that the Merovingian heir is still known to adherents and there is the belief that some day ..... :huh:[QUOTE=grrliz]

I've been hoping for Sirius to have an illegitimate son for ages now (seriously, check out the All About Sirius thread, Arithmancy has great theories about this). Well, if Sirius is the father of Dean Thomas, he married the boy's mother, but deserted her to protect them from Voldemort who was after him.
Yes, exactly! I've never understood that Sirius is the "last Black" since there are still female Blacks in existence, and at least one of them has a male son. The bloodline continues. I wonder if Draco will realise the position this puts him in as well. Terrifying.

You might want these threads for information.
(psst - it's spelled 'agenda') Thanks for the spelling tip. I noticed it in the middle of my last post, after I calmed down. The Red Sox won again.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

GO RED SOX !!!!!!!

Expecto Patronum!

Why was Lily killed? aka Why didn't Voldemort want to kill Lily? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=1361)
How Harry and Voldemort both survived-the “crucial and central” question (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=23956)
Theory on “The Crucial Question” (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=29583)
Which side is Snape really on?V.2 ( http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=31477)
Why are the Malfoys still friends with Snape? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16205)
Why does Dumbledore trust Snape? Will something major be revealed? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=32357)
Do you think Voldemort knows Snape is a spy? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16339)
Snape at Godric’s Hollow? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=30845)
Severus Snape/Regulus Black (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=17441)
Why did Snape join Voldemort in the first place? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=8253)
Snape and Sirius (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20857)
Trust Snape – NEVER! (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=29163)
Will we ever find out the truth about Professor Snape? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=33721)
Will Snape have to kill for Lord Voldemort? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=36519) :wow: I'll be up all night. But no game tomorrow night. I'll see what's going on. :agree:

grrliz

October 25th, 2004, 4:56 am

Up a few posts, Whiz answered that. Peter was Scabbers.Heh, I know, I read PoA. :p I was referring to pre-Potters death, pre-Peter-as-Sacbbers that he and Molly might have forged a relationship.

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 5:07 am

Maybe. Wish I knew.

Scabbers is interesting. Someone asked JKR if Lupin, Potter, Black and Lupin were all in Gryffindor, and she said yes. Notice that Lupin was asked twice and Pettigrew not at all. So we still can't be sure about him. On the face of it, if courage is a Gryffindor trait and self protection a Slytherin characteristic, Pettigrew looks like Slytherin material. That would be an interesting situation. I have a feeling that Pettigrew joined Voldemort for just the reasons given, it looked like he was going to win. Was he approached by racists to work for them in Voldemort's ranks? Or was he manipulated, just another chess piece on the board? Either way, after Voldemort fell, the racists gave him shelter until Sirius and Remus found him out. But he scampered back to the DL again, hoping to pick the winning/strongest side. Pettigrew is gambling a lot whatever the storyline is.

HermioneLuna

October 25th, 2004, 5:11 am

Heh, I know, I read PoA. :p I was referring to pre-Potters death, pre-Peter-as-Sacbbers that he and Molly might have forged a relationship.

Sorry. I didn't even remember that Peter was living with the Weasleys at all until Whiz reminded me that Peter was Scabbers. Guess I was happy someone else forget this fact. Though you clearly didn't.

grrliz

October 25th, 2004, 5:15 am

Or was he manipulated, just another chess piece on the board? Either way, after Voldemort fell, the racists gave him shelter until Sirius and Remus found him out. But he scampered back to the DL again, hoping to pick the winning/strongest side. Pettigrew is gambling a lot whatever the storyline is.Only a pawn in their game... but wait, the racists gave him shelter? The Weasleys? They're notorious blood traitors, are they not? Except for Molly, who knows about her, especially if she was secretly and purposely harbouring Peter for years :evil: :p.

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 6:27 am

Yup. The Weasleys are notorious muggle lovers. :agree: But Molly, who told Ginny and Hermione about a love potion she made as a girl, :eyebrows: is constantly at odds with Arthur. The PoA argument in the Leaky Cauldron about whether to tell Harry that Sirius Black was after him.
If the Knight Bus hadn't picked him up, I'm prepared to bet he would have been dead before the Ministry found him."

"But he's not dead, he's fine, so what's the point - "

Molly, they say Sirius Black's mad, and maybe he is, but he was clever enough to escape from Azkaban, and that's supposed to be impossible. It's been three weeks, and no one's seen hide nor hair of him, and I don't care what Fudge keeps telling the Daily Prophet, we're no nearer catching Black than inventing self-spelling wands. The only thing we know for sure is what Black's after - "

"But Harry will be perfectly safe at Hogwarts."

"We thought Azkaban was perfectly safe. If Black can break out of Azkaban, he can break into Hogwarts."

"But No one's really sure that Black's after Harry - "

There was a thud on wood, and Harry was sure Mr. Weasley had banged his fist on the table.

"Molly, how many times do I have to tell you? They didn't report it in the press because Fudge wanted it kept quiet, but Fudge went out to Azkaban the night Black escaped. The guards told Fudge that Black's been talking in his sleep for a while now. Always the same words: 'He's at Hogwarts ... he's at Hogwarts.' Black is deranged, Molly, and he wants Harry dead. If you ask me, he thinks murdering Harry will bring You-know-Who back to power. Black lost everything the night Harry stopped You-Know-Who, and he's had twelve years alone in Azkaban to brood on that...."

There was a silence. Harry leaned still closer to the door, desperate to hear more.

"Well, Arthur, you must do what you think is right. But you're forgetting Albus Dumbledore. I don't think anything could hurt Harry at Hogwarts while Dumbledore's headmaster." Why is Molly so sure that Harry is safe at Hogwarts? And why isn't she sure that Black is after Harry? What does she know that Arthur doesn't?

In PoA, it was Fudge who Arthur says insisted on treating Harry like a child and keeping him in the dark. Molly agrees.

In OotP, it is apparently Dumbledore who doesn't want Harry to know any more than he has to. Molly interpretation of this is Harry, and her own children, should know nothing! Why not? They are a bright bunch. Is she afraid they'll figure something out?

In the kitchen argument in OotP Molly is particularly harsh to Sirius, in spite of the fact that everyone else in the room agrees with Sirius that telling Harry only what he needs to know is more than nothing at all.
"Nearly time for bed, I think," said Mrs. Weasley with a yawn.

"Not just yet, Molly" said Sirius, pushing away his empty plate and turning to look at Harry. "You know, I'm surprised at you. I thought the first thing you'd do when you got here would be to start asking questions about Voldemort."

The atmosphere in the room changed with the rapidity Harry associated with the arrival of Dementors. Where seconds before it had been sleepily relaxed, it was now alert, even tense. A frisson had gone around the table at the mention of Voldemort's name. Lupin, who had been about to take a sip of wine, lowered his goblet slowly, looking wary.

"I did!" said Harry indignantly. "I asked Ron and Hermione but they said we're not allowed in the Order, so -"

"And they're quite right," said Mrs. Weasley. "You're too young."

She was sitting bolt upright in her chair, her fists clenched on its arms, every trace of drowsiness gone.

"Since when did someone have to be in the Order of the Phoenix to ask questions?" asked Sirius. "Harry's been trapped in that Muggle house for a month. He's got the right to know what's been happen-"

"Hang on!" interrupted George loudly.

"How come Harry gets his questions answered?" said Fred angrily.

"We've been trying to get stuff out of you for a month and you haven't told us a single stinking thing!" said George.

"You're too young, you're not in the Order," said Fred, in a high-pitched voice that sounded uncannily like his mother's. "Harry's not even of age!"

"It's not my fault you haven't been told what the Order's doing," said Sirius calmly, "that's your parents' decision. Harry, on the other hand -"

"It's not down to you to decide what's good for Harry!" said Mrs. Weasley sharply. The expression on her normally kind face looked dangerous. "You haven't forgotten what Dumbledore said, I suppose?"

"Which bit?" Sirius asked politely, but with the air of a man readying himself for a fight.

"The bit about not telling Harry more than he needs to know," said Mrs. Weasley, placing a heavy emphasis on the last three words.

Ron, Hermione, Fred and George's heads swivelled from Sirius to Mrs. Weasley as though they were following a tennis rally. Ginny was kneeling amid a pile of abandoned Butterbeer corks, watching the conversation with her mouth slightly open. Lupin's eyes were fixed on Sirius.

"I don't intend to tell him more than he needs to know, Molly," said Sirius. "But as he was the one who saw Voldemort come back" (again, there was a collective shudder around the table at the name) "he has more right than most to -"

"He's not a member of the Order of the Phoenix!" said Mrs. Weasley. "He's only fifteen and -"

"And he's dealt with as much as most in the Order," said Sirius, "and more than some."

"No one's denying what he's done!" said Mrs. Weasley, her voice rising, her fists trembling on the arms of her chair. "But he's still -"

"He's not a child!" said Sirius impatiently.

"He's not an adult either!" said Mrs. Weasley, the colour rising in her cheeks. "He's not James, Sirius!"

"I'm perfectly clear who he is, thanks, Molly," said Sirius coldly.

"I'm not sure you are!" said Mrs. Weasley. "Sometimes, the way you talk about him, it's as though you think you've got your best friend back!"

"What's wrong with that?" said Harry.

"What's wrong, Harry, is that you are not your father, however much you might look like him!" said Mrs. Weasley, her eyes still boring into Sirius. "You are still at school and adults responsible for you should not forget it!"

"Meaning I'm an irresponsible godfather?" demanded Sirius, his voice rising.

"Meaning you have been known to act rashly, Sirius, which is why Dumbledore keeps reminding you to stay at home and -"

"We'll leave my instructions from Dumbledore out of this, if you please!" said Sirius loudly.

"Arthur!" said Mrs. Weasley, rounding on her husband. "Arthur, back me up!"

Mr. Weasley did not speak at once. He took off his glasses and cleaned them slowly on his robes, not looking at his wife. Only when he had replaced them carefully on his nose did he reply.

"Dumbledore knows the position has changed, Molly. He accepts that Harry will have to be filled in, to a certain extent, now that he is staying at Headquarters."

"Yes, but there's a difference between that and inviting him to ask whatever he likes!"

"Personally," said Lupin quietly, looking away from Sirius at last, as Mrs. Weasley turned quickly to him, hopeful that finally she was about to get an ally, "I think it better that Harry gets the facts -not all the facts, Molly, but the general picture - from us, rather than a garbled version from... others."

His expression was mild, but Harry felt sure Lupin, at least, knew that some Extendable Ears had survived Mrs. Weasley's purge.

"Well," said Mrs. Weasley, breathing deeply and looking around the table for support that did not come, "well... I can see I'm going to be overruled. I'll just say this: Dumbledore must have had his reasons for not wanting Harry to know too much, and speaking as someone who has Harry's best interests at heart -"

"He's not your son," said Sirius quietly.

"He's as good as," said Mrs. Weasley fiercely. "Who else has he got?"

"He's got me!"

"Yes," said Mrs. Weasley, her lip curling, "the thing is, it's been rather difficult for you to look after him while you've been locked up in Azkaban, hasn't it?"

Sirius started to rise from his chair.

"Molly, you're not the only person at this table who cares about Harry," said Lupin sharply. "Sirius, sit down."

Mrs. Weasley's lower lip was trembling. Sirius sank slowly back into his chair, his face white.

"I think Harry ought to be allowed a say in this," Lupin continued, "he's old enough to decide for himself."

"I want to know what's been going on," Harry said at once.

He did not look at Mrs. Weasley. He had been touched by what she had said about his being as good as a son, but he was also impatient with her mollycoddling. Sirius was right, he was not a child.

"Very well," said Mrs. Weasley, her voice cracking. "Ginny - Ron - Hermione - Fred - George - I want you out of this kitchen, now."

There was instant uproar.

"We're of age!" Fred and George bellowed together.

"If Harry's allowed, why can't I?" shouted Ron.

"Mum, I want to hear!" wailed Ginny.

"NO!" shouted Mrs. Weasley, standing up, her eyes overbright. "I absolutely forbid -"

"Molly, you can't stop Fred and George," said Mr. Weasley wearily. "They are of age."

They're still at school."

"But they're legally adults now," said Mr. Weasley, in the same tired voice.

Mrs. Weasley was now scarlet in the face.

"I - oh, all right then, Fred and George can stay, but Ron -"

"Harry'll tell me and Hermione everything you say anyway!" said Ron hotly. "Won't - won't you?" he added uncertainly, meeting Harry's eyes.

For a split second, Harry considered telling Ron that he wouldn't tell him a single word, that he could try a taste of being kept in the dark and see how he liked it. But the nasty impulse vanished as they looked at each other.

"Course I will," Harry said.

Ron and Hermione beamed.

"Fine!" shouted Mrs. Weasley. "Fine! Ginny - BED!"
What is with her? Arthur tells her right in the beginning that Dumbledore understands Harry must be filled in to some extent, but she's still raving that he must be kept completely in the dark. And her attitude toward Sirius is more than a little interesting. The only other person who gets that kind of a rise out of Sirius is Snape. The presence of Lupin and Mr Weasley prevented this from getting really out of hand. What does Mrs Weasley know about Sirius that the others do not? Was it Snape who initially started planting the dream about the corridor in Harry's head? And was Molly in on it? Is this a plot to kill Sirius that Voldemort, another chesspiece, was drawn into?

:huh:

Lochious

October 25th, 2004, 6:37 am

Kimmetje

October 25th, 2004, 6:41 am

Alastor

October 25th, 2004, 6:56 am

That is interesting proof! Normally, Molly is the one who is always worrying about Harry's well-being. But her and Sirius are related! So she just might have known more about the stich then she told Arthur. As for Snape and Sirius being brothers...it's a catchy theory for sure, but think back to when they were younger- going to Hogwarts at the same time. Wouldn't people have known they were brothers then?
Somehow it seems to me that Molly's reaction when Sirius showed himself in GoF ch. 36 indicates that she didn't think any good about him or knew that he was an animagus. Either that or she's a very good actor. Telling Arthur that he was perhaps not after Harry may have been just making up an excuse for not informing Harry.

And about Snape being Regulus. Here's what JKR said about Regulus in the World Book Day chat last March: "Well he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days."

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 7:43 am

Let me just answer the questions.

What is the underlying plot of this series? What's going on beneath the surface?
-I think Snape is the missing death eater who is a spy for LV (why else so buddyish with Malfoy) and for DD, but both think he's on their side. Snape does this all to save his own skin. Well, tired and old as that it, it may very well be the case. But it could also be much deeper. There are hints here and there that Snape has an agenda outside the machinations of either Voldemort or Dumbledore.
Why did the Dark Lord tell Harry his mother didn't have to die?
-He wanted to finish the job and maybe take HP's mom with him as she was one of the brightest witches of her time and he might have wanted her on his side. Again, this one has been around forever, and may well be the answer. There's also the "Wormtail was in love with Lily and asked Voldemort not to kill her." Or the same storyline with Snape being in love with Lily. My personal favorite before JKR shot it down was that Lily was Tom Riddle's daughter. :rolleyes:

But if there is a plotline outside our main view, Lily may have been a chesspiece that was not intended to be lost. :huh: Killing her may actually have started the roller coaster roll that will end in foiling the entire plot. :D

Who does Voldemort believe is his most faithful servant?
-Lucius Malfoy or Bellatrix Lestrange as both are really high up the ladder by DE standard and they lead the other's on missions. We were first led to believe it was Barty Crouch JR. Wormtail chaffes that Voldemort doesn't think he's the MVS. Bella says she's the MVS, but Voldemort doesn't back her up. As for Malfoy, maybe. But I suspect that he and his family may have been like the Blacks, thinking Voldemort had the right idea until they realized he wanted power for himself, and not for the royal house the purebloods wish to return to power. However, there are advantages to having people well placed, and Malfoy being well placed with Voldemort is as important as Snape being inside Hogwarts. ;)
And how did both Harry and Voldemort survive the death curse in Godric's Hollow?
-On my opinion for this you want to read the Changeling Hypothesis. I don't know when the changeling hypothosis was written, I've read it twice. But it seems largely based on ideas that began to evolve in the prophesy thread about a year ago. I'm sure they evolved in other forums too. Not very original, though. I think this is a good summary too, from about a year ago.Power, and a Future (http://www.cosforums.com/cosarchive/showthread.php?t=20114) But I don't think either of them answers the question JKR suggested we ask.

Sorry to say this, but Barbara Kennedy linked some threads in the above which totally take over the whole thread as in that all links do what this thread does though now we have it all together.And having it all together makes it easier to see the forest as well as the trees. I understand that a lot of threads are examining different aspects of all this and I'm not trying to make anyone upset. It's like each thread gets a section of a puzzle together. Having a thead like this, we can begin to put the sections together to see a larger picture. No harm intended.

That is interesting proof! Normally, Molly is the one who is always worrying about Harry's well-being. But her and Sirius are related! So she just might have known more about the stich then she told Arthur. As for Snape and Sirius being brothers...it's a catchy theory for sure, but think back to when they were younger- going to Hogwarts at the same time. Wouldn't people have known they were brothers then?
That's a good point. But we don't hear anyone say anything about it one way or the other. It's mostly conjecture, there's no real hard evidence, but the possibility is tantalizing.

If for example, Sirius and Regulus/Severus were fraternal twins with Sirius born first, they would have been in the same year at school. I had figured out once that if Sirius was born in Sept and Regulus in Aug, (which we may now assume is not the case. They're probably both scorpios), they could be nearly a year apart and still be in the same year. I can't wait to see if they have the same birthday. Think JKR will tell us? ;)

Somehow it seems to me that Molly's reaction when Sirius showed himself in GoF ch. 36 indicates that she didn't think any good about him or knew that he was an animagus. Yeah, she doesn't think much of him. And I think she was surprised that he was an animagus. :agree: It was a secret from many.
And about Snape being Regulus. Here's what JKR said about Regulus in the World Book Day chat last March: "Well he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days."And my response last March was something like, "Since when does dead have anything to do with quiet in the Potterverse." ;)

ComicBookWorm

October 25th, 2004, 10:29 am

BK's thread suggestions do seem to cover the concepts suggested for this thread--especially "Trust Snape Never". But maybe this can be sort of a reverse all about Snape thread (the opposite of fangirl stuff). :p

Serpentina

October 25th, 2004, 11:02 am

And about Snape being Regulus. Here's what JKR said about Regulus in the World Book Day chat last March: "Well he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days."

I'm 99% convinced, that Snape is related to the Black family, but he's not Regulus. Regulus was younger than Sirius, but Snape was in the same year with him. I had a theory about Snape being Sirius' illegitimate halfbrother -a halfblood- that's why he's not on the tapestry. And his mother is from the Evans family.
Snape was raised in poor conditions, clearly not in the Black house. His memory of the shouting man and covering woman imply, that the woman is NOT Mrs Black -we can say it: covering is not in her nature. :D But she can be a muggle or muggleborn woman from the Evans family, trying to convince Mr Black to acknowledge his son, what he refused.
Then Snape's mother could have died, and Snape left to his father's decision, who sent him to the Malfoys, his friends and later in-laws. This could answer Snape's affection to the Malfoys, and also the fact why he was knee deep in Dark Arts even in his first year at Hogwarts.
Sirius and Snape loathe each other for obvious reasons. But it always bothered me why Snape trusted Sirius' word and went to the Whomping Willow. If they were only clear cut enemies, he would have been more careful. It shocks Snape that Sirius is capable even to murder him.

About Regulus Black, we know that he was a Death Eater. He followed the way his family wished for him, and although not in their drive, but young Snape and him were similar in many view. Whenever they were close or not, his death could affect Snape deeply. Deeply enough to turn away from the Dark Lord.

Then about Lily. When Snape calls her mudblood, she's surprised. Why? Everybody knew Snape was into dark arts, hung with a gang of Slytherins, so calling her that is what was expected from him.
Maybe Snape intentions were with this to keep her out of the situation. By insulting her this way, Lily assumed that Snape despises his "mudblood" side.

About why Voldemort didn't intend to kill Lily: Snape could beg him not to. Voldemort could be aware of their relation or Snape could invent a lie about the reason. I also think that he had a role in why the killing course rebounced of Harry (maybe a potion for "stopper death"?) He could have been at Godric Hollow right before the attack, feeding the potion to Harry in secret and trying to convince Lily to stand aside, that of course Lily refused due to lack of trust and James' influence.

All of these together are enough to loathe Sirius (he beleived that he was their secret keeper) enough to handle him to the dementors, or for Dumbledore to trust Snape completely.

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 3:17 pm

I'm 99% convinced, that Snape is related to the Black family, but he's not Regulus. Regulus was younger than Sirius, but Snape was in the same year with him. I had a theory about Snape being Sirius' illegitimate halfbrother -a halfblood- that's why he's not on the tapestry. And his mother is from the Evans family. Again, maybe. All I'm saying is, so far, we can't rule out the possibility that Snape is Regulus. I'm not saying he is.
Snape was raised in poor conditions, clearly not in the Black house. His memory of the shouting man and covering woman imply, that the woman is NOT Mrs Black -we can say it: covering is not in her nature. :D But she can be a muggle or muggleborn woman from the Evans family, trying to convince Mr Black to acknowledge his son, what he refused.
Then Snape's mother could have died, and Snape left to his father's decision, who sent him to the Malfoys, his friends and later in-laws. This could answer Snape's affection to the Malfoys, and also the fact why he was knee deep in Dark Arts even in his first year at Hogwarts. This has less to back it up than my suggestion that Snape is involved in an intrigue to return an ancient royal house to power. The woman could very well have been Mrs Black. We never saw her husband. He could have been terrifying. He did have lots of protections on Grimmauld Place, including making it unplottable. Why? :huh: But I also like an idea from about a year ago, that the man in that scene isn't Snape's father but his maternal grandfather and he's yelling at his daughter for marrying outside the pureblood families.
Sirius and Snape loathe each other for obvious reasons. But it always bothered me why Snape trusted Sirius' word and went to the Whomping Willow. If they were only clear cut enemies, he would have been more careful. It shocks Snape that Sirius is capable even to murder him.What obvious reasons? I'm still trying to figure it out. :)
JKR is always mixing it up. Trust Snape. Don't trust Snape. Every time she gets us leaning in one direction, she pulls the rug out from under us. Thus all the different and still valid opinions of the Potions Master.
It's possible that this happens because we are trying to explain Snape's behaviour in terms of the obvious plot. If we look for a deeper or peripheral plotline, perhaps Snape's behaviour becomes more consistant to its agenda.
About Regulus Black, we know that he was a Death Eater. He followed the way his family wished for him, and although not in their drive, but young Snape and him were similar in many view. Whenever they were close or not, his death could affect Snape deeply. Deeply enough to turn away from the Dark Lord. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but I think you mean that Regulus and Snape may have known each other as DEs and the death of Regulus may have affected Snape so that he too, deserted the DL. It's interesting that Regulus and Snape both left the service of Voldemort at nearly the same time. This corresponds with Sirius' statement that his family and others thought that Voldemort was going about things the right way until they found out what he was willing to do to get power. The agenda the Blacks and other pureblood families adhered to was the return of pureblood supremacy in the wizarding world, and the exclusion of non purebloods from power and perhaps even magical education. Mr. Malfoy's short discussion on the subject with the shopkeeper in Knockturn Alley, (CoS) is a glimpse into his views.
But they turned away from Voldemort when they realized what he was willing to do to get power. What was that? Could it have involved the killing of purebloods? Could it have had anything to do with Voldemort, a half blood himself, taking power for himself rather than working toward the agenda of pureblood supremacy, possibly including the return of a pureblood royal house to power. Are there two seperate agendas at work in these books?

Then about Lily. When Snape calls her mudblood, she's surprised. Why? Everybody knew Snape was into dark arts, hung with a gang of Slytherins, so calling her that is what was expected from him.
Maybe Snape intentions were with this to keep her out of the situation. By insulting her this way, Lily assumed that Snape despises his "mudblood" side. Well, we know Lily is a Muggleborn. We don't know about Snape, although his sorting into Slytherin makes it more likely that he is actually a pureblood.
Lily may just as likely have been surprised at his insult because she, as a prefect, was attempting to control the situaltion which would have helped him. She had some authority in this scene, as did Lupin, who Ronlike, chose to sit it out. So Snape didn't just insult Lily, he insulted a Hogwarts prefect acting according to her authority. She was in a position to be startled and put off by his cheek.
About why Voldemort didn't intend to kill Lily: Snape could beg him not to. Voldemort could be aware of their relation or Snape could invent a lie about the reason. I also think that he had a role in why the killing course rebounced of Harry (maybe a potion for "stopper death"?) He could have been at Godric Hollow right before the attack, feeding the potion to Harry in secret and trying to convince Lily to stand aside, that of course Lily refused due to lack of trust and James' influence. Why would Snape want Voldemort to spare Lily? :huh: I agree that we need to consider Snape, particularly in the light of that phrase "...bottle fame, brew glory and even stopper death..." the very first time we hear him speak, as possibly being involved with JKR's very provacative question. :agree:

All of these together are enough to loathe Sirius (he beleived that he was their secret keeper) enough to handle him to the dementors, or for Dumbledore to trust Snape completely.We don't know if Snape thought that Sirius was the secret keeper. If Snape is setting people up in all directions, moving them around a chessboard, he may have intended Wormtail to be the secret keeper after all. He refused to let anyone speak or give any openings for explanations in the shrieking shack scene at the end of PoA and had to be silenced by the trio so that the confusion could all be sorted out.
Why was he so intent that the confusion not be sorted? He especially didn't want Harry to know what was going on. Why not? Is he the true source of the push to keep Harry in the dark and unaware of as much as possible? Molly certainly seems to share this view to the extreme. :agree:

egonza44

October 25th, 2004, 3:37 pm

Kimmetje

October 25th, 2004, 3:44 pm

Who does Voldemort believe is his most faithful servant?

In my earlier post I totally took this question wrong *claps hand on her head* as I though of book 5. I'm going to sound corny on this question though. I believe it was Snape as he was just on time at like Hogwarts after the returning party and he might have been the one wizard LV 'passed in silence'. You want to check this article (linked) (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt15.shtml) as it is really good and explains me fairly well.

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 3:46 pm

I'm babysitting for a friend with a new baby today. Hopefully I'll get a chance to research the rumors and theories about the Merovingian intrigues that have come right down to the present.

cajitasazules

October 25th, 2004, 4:25 pm

Issues like this are why I feel that Harry Potter is not really a series aimed at children, but like Disney is for adults, yet marketed to a younger generation and brings families together.

From the very beginning, I've thought that Harry was not the center of our story, but his story was the way we would make sense of the largest picture as revealed to us by JKR. Snape, in many ways, not just because he is a personal favorite (as per my signature), is the true *key* to understanding the entire Harry Potter series. If he is indeed manipulating a larger agenda, then he has likely outsmarted even Dumbledore.

The number of issues tht could be resolved just by knowing more about Snape is astounding, here are a few:

* Who is the DE that has left forever? - We'll only know this answer, if we know that Snape was present at the "rebirth" of LV.
* What side is Snape on? - If he indeed has a hidden agenda, then he is playing both sides to achieve his own Machiavellian goals (letting the ends justify the means)
*Who is Regulus Black? - We know some facts, but not enough facts. Too many open questions, which leads to further assumptions.
* Is Snape even a pureblood?
* Where was Snape the night the Potters were killed?
* Does Snape have a personal past story (lost love, children, other emotional baggage) that we are not yet privy too?

Answer most of these questions and we have many of the mysteries solved. Too much is left to question that this character is not just a greasy git to antagonize Harry.

atherella

October 25th, 2004, 4:56 pm

What an interesting thread, Whiz. :D

I found this question particularly amusing as I just had a discussion about this very question with my 9 year old yesterday.
Who does Voldemort believe is his most faithful servant?

My son asked me who was the REAL most faithful servant since everytime we hear about LV, he is referring to different people as his most faithful servant. He said that it seems like LV is 'fickle' and labels his most loyal servant as the one who is serving his interest of the moment best. Pretty insightful for a 9 year old. And I have to say, I agree with him. :lol:

Arithmancy

October 25th, 2004, 5:25 pm

Dean Thomas:

I am reluctant to believe that Dean is Sirius's son for one reason:
Dean is black by skin color, it would be a bit over-the-top if he were a Black by heritage also. A bit cartoonish.

About Severus Snape and his relatives:

I was thinking about his first name: Severus. It is Roman in origin. Snape is British, a name of the villiage.

Who else has Roman names? Malfoy, Lucius. Rookwood, Augustus. Hagrid, Rubeus. While Hagrid's name just means "red", Severus, Lucius and Augustus mean "severe", "light", and "venerable", and are shared by some pompous historical figures. Malfoy is of French origin, the other last names are British.

Lestrange, Rodolphus has old germal root, Rabastan's origin is unknown, but it sounds quasi-Spanish to me. Lestrange is french in origin, l'estranger - a foreigner. Lestranges are of mixed European origin, I guess. Rosier, Evan could be from anywhere.

Antonin Dolohov and Igor Karkaroff are all Eastern European. (I wonder why Dolohov is transliterated with "v", but Karkaroff with "ff" at the end?...)

Finally, Blacks. Ordinary British name and "starry" first names. It is obviously a tradition: at least three families followed it: Sirius/Regulis, Bellatrix/Andromeda, Draco. (Edit: uncle Alfard is a star, too.) Why stars? :huh:
Phineas Nigellus means Black(egyptian) Black(latin). Did Blacks adopt the British version of their more ancient name some time after they moved to Britain? What is the history of Nigelluses? Egypt? Roman Empire? If they are part-royal, the name suggests some kind of illegitimate branch.

So Snape fits into the same patterns as Malfoy and Rookwood. BTW, in British versions of the books Rookwood is named Algernon. In this case, the only major characters with Roman-noble first names are Lucius and Severus! (there was I think Tiberius Ogden briefly mentioned...)
Maybe Snape is related to Malfoy, not Black? If Snape is illegitimate, maybe he wears his mother's last name, but his father insisted on naming him in family traditions, hence Severus?

Name origins info was taken from here (http://www.m5p.com/~pravn/hp/record.txt). Thank you, whoever made that list. :tu:

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 6:06 pm

From the very beginning, I've thought that Harry was not the center of our story, but his story was the way we would make sense of the largest picture as revealed to us by JKR. Snape, in many ways, not just because he is a personal favorite (as per my signature), is the true *key* to understanding the entire Harry Potter series. If he is indeed manipulating a larger agenda, then he has likely outsmarted even Dumbledore. It looks that way. We know that Snape tries to influence Dumbledore as Malfoy does Fudge (without the gold ;) )because Lupin and Snape both tell us that he tried to prevent Dumbledore from hiring Remus as DADA professor in PoA. He seems to have a tougher job of it than Malfoy, though. :lol:
The number of issues tht could be resolved just by knowing more about Snape is astounding, here are a few:

* What side is Snape on? - If he indeed has a hidden agenda, then he is playing both sides to achieve his own Machiavellian goals (letting the ends justify the means) Exactly! You/ve stated it perfectly. That's exactly what I'm proposing. :agree: Thanks.
* Where was Snape the night the Potters were killed? This one is very interesting. It may tie in with JKR's "question we should be asking," how did Harry and Voldemort both survive? We think she's already told us, but she still wants us to ask the question. :huh:

Answer most of these questions and we have many of the mysteries solved. Too much is left to question that this character is not just a greasy git to antagonize Harry. I agree. He may actually turn out to be central charcter in the series. :scared:

anabel

October 25th, 2004, 6:21 pm

Just a little quote which I think was from the World Book Day chat Will we be hearing more from Regulus Black? JKR -> Well, he's dead, so he is pretty quiet these days! In other words he is definitely NOT Snape.

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 8:06 pm

I suppose that will be quoted at least once on every page.
As I said in March, (and on page one :) ), since when does dead have anything to do with quiet in the Potterverse?
JKR's is pretty tricky.
But again, I'm not saying Snape is Regulus. I'm saying I'm not convinced yet, that he's not. The possibility exists.

What an interesting thread, Whiz. :D

I found this question particularly amusing as I just had a discussion about this very question with my 9 year old yesterday.
Who does Voldemort believe is his most faithful servant?

My son asked me who was the REAL most faithful servant since everytime we hear about LV, he is referring to different people as his most faithful servant. He said that it seems like LV is 'fickle' and labels his most loyal servant as the one who is serving his interest of the moment best. Pretty insightful for a 9 year old. And I have to say, I agree with him. :lol:
Very logical thinker. :agree:
And folowing the obvious plotline, that's certainly how it seems.

Machiavelli

October 25th, 2004, 8:13 pm

Okay Whiz - so what about this one? JKR has said that Snape's patronus form can't be revealed yet... could it be a serpent? I could suggest that he's also Nagini, but there's something quite female about that snake so I'm not going to go there.... quite. But come to think of it, if he were, then he would definitely be at the graveyard...

whizbang121

October 25th, 2004, 8:33 pm

Machiavelli

October 25th, 2004, 8:43 pm

Speaking of kids, my nearly 8 yr old and I were just discussing Filch and Umbridge. She wanted to know if Umbridge was a DE, and I told her that Sirius told Harry that not all evil people are Death Eaters. :huh: Umbridge is definitely a racist, however. :eyebrows:

This suggests to me that pureblood racists don't necessarily have the same agenda that DE's do.Actually it sounds to me a bit like England just before and at the start of WWII. There was a great deal of feeling that Hitler had some pretty good ideas really, and many people were inclined to at least shrug off the racism issue because it was Jews he was targeting. Churchill made people uncomfortable because he didn't laugh at anti-jewish jokes.

Serpentina

October 25th, 2004, 9:43 pm

Again, maybe. All I'm saying is, so far, we can't rule out the possibility that Snape is Regulus. I'm not saying he is.

This has less to back it up than my suggestion that Snape is involved in an intrigue to return an ancient royal house to power. The woman could very well have been Mrs Black. We never saw her husband.

But Harry saw Mrs Black's portrait. I think he would have acknowledged her.

About restoring the power of the noble pureblood houses: this is the goal of the Malfoys. Lucius is not the type to kiss the hem of the robes of a halfblood, if you ask my opinion, he wouldn't kiss anybody's at all if he could help it. Snape seems to back up his intentions, that's why Lucius is still in good terms with him. But I don't think that Snape is truly on his side. He too much respects Dumbledore, and his trust means too much for him. Dumbledore can stop his blind rage with one twinkle of his eye. And eminently Dumbledore is not stupid. He's the great manipulator behind everything, he's one step ahead even Voldemort. Although Snape is a wise man, but it's Dumbledore who pulls the strings. Snape couldn't fool him for 14 years.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but I think you mean that Regulus and Snape may have known each other as DEs and the death of Regulus may have affected Snape so that he too, deserted the DL. It's interesting that Regulus and Snape both left the service of Voldemort at nearly the same time.

Exactly this is what I tried to say. Interesting the approximately date of Regulus' death, he died in the year, the prophecy was made. It could have been Regulus, who overheard it, then wanted to back out. He was killed, then Snape had a living (or rather dead) example in front of his eyes, what happens to traitors. That's why he went to Dumbledore, the only one Voldemort is afraid of.

This corresponds with Sirius' statement that his family and others thought that Voldemort was going about things the right way until they found out what he was willing to do to get power. The agenda the Blacks and other pureblood families adhered to was the return of pureblood supremacy in the wizarding world, and the exclusion of non purebloods from power and perhaps even magical education. Mr. Malfoy's short discussion on the subject with the shopkeeper in Knockturn Alley, (CoS) is a glimpse into his views.
But they turned away from Voldemort when they realized what he was willing to do to get power. What was that? Could it have involved the killing of purebloods? Could it have had anything to do with Voldemort, a half blood himself, taking power for himself rather than working toward the agenda of pureblood supremacy, possibly including the return of a pureblood royal house to power.

We agree on this.

Are there two seperate agendas at work in these books? Well, we know Lily is a Muggleborn. We don't know about Snape, although his sorting into Slytherin makes it more likely that he is actually a pureblood.

We don't know if he's a pureblood or not. JKR said that he's not muggleborn, but being an illegitimate Black would make him halfblood. JKR avoided giving a straight answer, so it made me believe that he is indeed a halfblood. Sorted into Slytherin doesn't necessary means pure-bloodness. Just remember Tom Riddle or Harry Potter. Recently I've seen a list of Hogwarts students of Harry's year, and of the 10 Slytherins there were muggleborns too.
JKR also said that in very rare circumstances muggleborns can be accepted to Death Eaters... very odd.

Lily may just as likely have been surprised at his insult because she, as a prefect, was attempting to control the situaltion which would have helped him. She had some authority in this scene, as did Lupin, who Ronlike, chose to sit it out. So Snape didn't just insult Lily, he insulted a Hogwarts prefect acting according to her authority. She was in a position to be startled and put off by his cheek.

Maybe or may not be, this based on mainly on my instincts. In Lily's retort JKR used italics in the word "Snivellus". We don't know how Snape got his nickname, but it's surprisingly similar to Sirius' "Snuffles". It may be a coincidence, but what if it isn't?

Why would Snape want Voldemort to spare Lily? :huh:

Then why would Voldemort want to spare Lily? I have harder time to imagine him doing it, than Snape. Voldemort has no problem killing innocent people see Cedric and Frank. They were just spares.

We don't know if Snape thought that Sirius was the secret keeper. If Snape is setting people up in all directions, moving them around a chessboard, he may have intended Wormtail to be the secret keeper after all. He refused to let anyone speak or give any openings for explanations in the shrieking shack scene at the end of PoA and had to be silenced by the trio so that the confusion could all be sorted out.
Why was he so intent that the confusion not be sorted? He especially didn't want Harry to know what was going on. Why not? Is he the true source of the push to keep Harry in the dark and unaware of as much as possible? Molly certainly seems to share this view to the extreme. :agree:

Everybody thought that Sirius was the Potter's secret keeper. My theory about it is here:
They suspected that there's a spy among them, but nobody knew who. Wormtail started to slip information to Voldemort before the prophecy was made (HP lexicon timeline). Of course Voldemort as a wise man didn't reveal the identity of the spy even to his DEs (most of his servants wasn't tied to him by trust, but by blackmail, bullying and so and in addition Voldemort is not a trusty person at all), so Snape couldn't be sure either, but could make a guess. He suspected Lupin and told Dumbledore. Remember in POA Sirius says they suspected each other with Lupin, being a spy. Lupin had a hard time, everybody turned away from him, except Lily. Sirius not wanting to be the secret keeper himself and not trusting Lupin recommended Peter to James. They switched in the last moment. After the betrayal Sirius understood everything when he faced Wormtail, but he was put in Azkaban, without a hearing. Snape saw only the payoff: Sirius blasted off a whole street, killed one of his friends and a dozen muggle.
About the secret keeper thing: if Snape really didn't know about Wormtail, then how could he go to Godric Hollow? Voldemort could use a piece of paper, as Moody used in the beginning of OotP. Then he would have showed it Snape only short before the attack, that's why Snape couldn't go to warn the Potters before.

In the Shrieking Shack, he was still conceived that Sirius betrayed the Potters, and still didn't trust Lupin. Lupin lied to him about the Marauder's map in the face and Snape was sure that it was him who helped Sirius to get into the castle. He was frantic with anger and vengance. (another imply that Lily's death affected him deeply) "There was a mad glint in his eyes". He wanted vendetta for Lily? "Vengeance is sweet." Hmmm, interesting possibility.

About keeping Harry in the dark: in Ootp he was the only one except Sirius who gave a proper explanation to him what's going on, excluding only those parts that Dumbledore forbade to tell. He's not the only one not telling him about his own past (and the relations between them), when Harry asked Dumbledore why he trusted Snape, he said simply: it's a matter between Professor Snape and myself." Maybe telling it would jeopardize Snape current work for the order? Or Voldemort would be able to place the last remaining pieces of the puzzle together and it would mean a death sentence to Snape. Maybe this is the reason why he was so outraged when he found Harry in his pensieve, and why he chose that particular memory to hide (because of Lily) Harry has an online scar-o-vision to Voldemort. I wonder what were those other two memories. I think Snape pulled out Harry from the pensieve in time.

whizbang121

October 26th, 2004, 12:16 am

But Harry saw Mrs Black's portrait. I think he would have acknowledged her. The woman in the memory was cowering. She may have had her face covered. Again, I'm not saying that Snape is Regulus. I'm saying that I'm still open to the possibility.

About restoring the power of the noble pureblood houses: this is the goal of the Malfoys. ...
But I don't think that Snape is truly on his side. He too much respects Dumbledore, and his trust means too much for him. Dumbledore can stop his blind rage with one twinkle of his eye. And eminently Dumbledore is not stupid. He's the great manipulator behind everything, he's one step ahead even Voldemort. Although Snape is a wise man, but it's Dumbledore who pulls the strings. Snape couldn't fool him for 14 years. If there's a seperate plotline beneath our radar, either Snape has fooled Dumbledore, or for reasons we can't understand, Dumbledore has allowed Snape to believe that he's fooled the headmaster.
Exactly this is what I tried to say. Interesting the approximately date of Regulus' death, he died in the year, the prophecy was made. It could have been Regulus, who overheard it, then wanted to back out. He was killed, then Snape had a living (or rather dead) example in front of his eyes, what happens to traitors. That's why he went to Dumbledore, the only one Voldemort is afraid of. Maybe. That could be the way it was following the visible plotline.
We don't know if he's a pureblood or not. JKR said that he's not muggleborn, but being an illegitimate Black would make him halfblood. Since JKR has said that she won't introduce teen pregnancy or drug abuse and such social problems into the story, it seems unlikely we'll find any illegitimate characters. But, who knows?
But JKR avoided giving a straight answer, so it made me believe that he is indeed a halfblood. Sorted into Slytherin doesn't necessary means pure-bloodness. Just remember Tom Riddle or Harry Potter. Recently I've seen a list of Hogwarts students of Harry's year, and of the 10 Slytherins there were muggleborns too. Could you post a link to the list?
JKR also said that in very rare circumstances muggleborns can be accepted to Death Eaters... very odd. Rare circumstances sounds like darn few.
In Lily's retort JKR used italics in the word "Snivellus". We don't know how Snape got his nickname, but it's surprisingly similar to Sirius' "Snuffles". It may be a coincidence, but what if it isn't? Yes, what if it isn't? :eyebrows: What if they are brothers?
Then why would Voldemort want to spare Lily? I don't know, but I feel it's related to JKR suggestion that we ask the question of how Harry and Voldemort both survived. And I suspect that Snape may be involved in the answer. Not much to go on, but........
Everybody thought that Sirius was the Potter's secret keeper. Exactly. Sirius was counting on that. This quote comes from here. http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1454320&postcount=263

I don't think that freed Sirius from responsibility. Think about it. If Peter were the secret keeper, but everyone thought it was Sirius, then anyone seeking the Potters would go to Sirius, not Peter. If Peter weren't a Death Eater and had never betrayed James and Lily, Voldemort would most likely have assumed that Sirius were the secret keeper. He would have sought Sirius, and if he (Voldemort) found him (Sirius), Voldemort would have tortured him to gain the knowledge of the Potter's whereabouts. Sirius was willing to face that pain for his friends. He was willing to die for them. Sirius wouldn't have been able to disclose the information even if he wanted to because he wasn't the secret keeper, but that doesn't lessen his burden. Voldemort would probably still be convinced Sirius knew what he (Voldemort) wanted to know and would have kept Sirius alive enough to torture him into a confession. Is it clear the sacrifice Sirius was making for his friends? By suggesting Peter for secret keeper, Sirius was putting himself in a position where he would be unable to reveal the Potters' location. But because everyone would believe he was the keeper, if he was caught the consequences would be horrific. He suffered horrific consequences anyway in Azkaban. But betrayed by Pettigrew, he was unable to save his friends. Did Snape place Pettigrew in the Dark Lord's ranks?

In the Shrieking Shack, he was still conceived that Sirius betrayed the Potters, and still didn't trust Lupin. Lupin lied to him about the Marauder's map in the face and Snape was sure that it was him who helped Sirius to get into the castle. He was frantic with anger and vengance. (another imply that Lily's death affected him deeply) "There was a mad glint in his eyes". He wanted vendetta for Lily? "Vengeance is sweet." Hmmm, interesting possibility. Oh I see. You're suggesting that Snape was in love with Lily. Yeah he was raving at the end of PoA, and he wouldn't let anyone say much of anything. If Snape is moving characters around like chesspieces, he's got to keep up the confusion, prevent anyone from figuring out what really happened. The last thing he wanted was for Sirius and Lupin to start comparing notes, or for Harry to see his plot unraveling. Snape needs Harry and Voldemort to get rid of each other when the racists are ready to make their move. :huh: I suspect Dumbledore is in more danger than he may realize. :agree:

About keeping Harry in the dark: in Ootp he was the only one except Sirius who gave a proper explanation to him what's going on, excluding only those parts that Dumbledore forbade to tell. I'm glad you brought that up. In occlumency class, he told Harry only what he wanted him to know. But after every session, Harry's mind would be so weakened that Ron insisted Snape was softening Harry up for the Dark Lord. And Sirius opinion of Snape was proved correct.

It's been suggested that Snape's Worst Memory was put into the pensieve intentionally for Harry to see.

... when Harry asked Dumbledore why he trusted Snape, he said simply: it's a matter between Professor Snape and myself." Maybe telling it would jeopardize Snape current work for the order? Or Voldemort would be able to place the last remaining pieces of the puzzle together and it would mean a death sentence to Snape. Maybe this is the reason why he was so outraged when he found Harry in his pensieve, and why he chose that particular memory to hide (because of Lily) Harry has an online scar-o-vision to Voldemort. I wonder what were those other two memories. I think Snape pulled out Harry from the pensieve in time.
Your suggestions are very possible following the overt plotline. But if there is a deeper plot, a plot where Snape is, as legallybrunette said, playing both sides to achieve his own ends, what other possibilities are there?

whizbang121

October 26th, 2004, 1:59 am

Who else has Roman names?Minerva is the Roman name for the Greek Athena.

Finally, Blacks. Ordinary British name and "starry" first names. It is obviously a tradition: at least three families followed it: Sirius/Regulis, Bellatrix/Andromeda, Draco. (Edit: uncle Alfard is a star, too.) Why stars? :huh:
Phineas Nigellus means Black(egyptian) Black(latin). Did Blacks adopt the British version of their more ancient name some time after they moved to Britain? What is the history of Nigelluses? Egypt? Roman Empire? If they are part-royal, the name suggests some kind of illegitimate branch. I don't get it. Why illegitimate?
Anyway, the Merovingian line claims it's decent from Jesus Christ (and thus back to the house of David), through his wife Mary Magdalene who came to France with Joseph of Arimathea. The claim is both royal and divine descent.
The use of Star names is interesting in this respect. The gods live in the sky as the planets and constellations. :agree: Astronomical names may suggest divine descent.

Nice work on the name Black, too. Remember how Ernie MacMillan stated in CoS, that his pureblood family could trace their roots back eight generations? But the house of Black is Toujours Pur, always pure.

So Snape fits into the same patterns as Malfoy and Rookwood. BTW, in British versions of the books Rookwood is named Algernon. In this case, the only major characters with Roman-noble first names are Lucius and Severus! (there was I think Tiberius Ogden briefly mentioned...)Then there was this guy. Lucius Septimius Severus. (http://www.roman-emperors.org/sepsev.htm) I never thought about it before, but maybe there is something to the idea that Snape and Malfoy are the same person. :huh: No. Different ages. Hmmm...
Maybe Snape is related to Malfoy, not Black? If Snape is illegitimate, maybe he wears his mother's last name, but his father insisted on naming him in family traditions, hence Severus?

Name origins info was taken from here (http://www.m5p.com/~pravn/hp/record.txt). Thank you, whoever made that list. :tu:Interesting approach. :agree: I still have doubts about Rowling introducing illegitamacy into the story, but the idea of Snape and Malfoy being related, (and neither on the tapestry) is very thought provoking. At the risk of being pelted with stinkbombs by LotR fans, (I'm on your side!) could we be looking at a family of stewards? :huh:

Oooooooo.......

Okay Whiz - so what about this one? JKR has said that Snape's patronus form can't be revealed yet... could it be a serpent? I could suggest that he's also Nagini, but there's something quite female about that snake so I'm not going to go there.... quite. But come to think of it, if he were, then he would definitely be at the graveyard...Someone brought that up on the Good Guys thread. Then they talked themselves out of it. Too close to Voldemort's snake "thing."
I don't honestly know. For a long time, all the swooping and descending was interpreted to mean that Snape was a vampire. JKR says no to Vampire Snape. But what if his animagus or patronus is a bat? Young SS is awkward, but adult Snape is graceful, billowing, swooping. Would becoming a bat influence human form, or are we looking at two different guys?
Or maybe, (defers to HermioneLuna) he's a snake in the grass? ;)

As for the graveyard, someone suggested he might have been the DE who Voldemort passed by without comment. This is interesting. I wanted to look for the quote before saying anything, though. (Hopefully in this life. :lol: )

Actually it sounds to me a bit like England just before and at the start of WWII. There was a great deal of feeling that Hitler had some pretty good ideas really, and many people were inclined to at least shrug off the racism issue because it was Jews he was targeting. Churchill made people uncomfortable because he didn't laugh at anti-jewish jokes.
The model for Dumbledore perhaps? :huh:
:)

I'm still thinking about the idea that Malfoy and Snape, possibly Molly Weasley may be part of a family of stewards or .....

Molly and I are cousins by marriage and Arthur's something like my second cousin once removed So........... Sirius was actually related to Arthur, and Molly married into the family. So Molly's children are now connected to the House of Black.

Wonder where the Prewetts fit into all this?

Meanwhile, back in the dungeons.

Arithmancy

October 26th, 2004, 3:17 am

Minerva is the Roman name for the Greek Athena.
True. But since she is a goddes, no ancient Roman citizen would name his daughter Minerva - it would be sacrilege. Therefore my guess is that Minerva is a relative modernism - maybe McGonagall parents felt inventive (just like Grangers)? While the old pure-blood fanatics tried to emulate Roman patricians.

I don't get it. Why illegitimate?
I should have cited the sourse:
Nigellus, Phineas (OotP ch. 6): Sirius Black's great-great-grandfather, a
Slytherin alleged to be the least popular headmaster Hogwarts ever had.

Etym: Latin, diminutive of "black".
So Nigellus=little black? The diminuitive part does not sound too regal. If they are really blood royalty, maybe illegitimate? Or, maybe they are decended from Crown Prince's (or whatever the title is) younger brother, the one who is not to inherit the throne?

This, of course, is speculation/fantasy run amok. :)

Then there was this guy. Lucius Septimius Severus. And this guy, too: Pescennius Niger (http://www.roman-emperors.org/pniger.htm) And Niger means "Black"! And they fought each other in civil war for the throne of Rome! And Severus won! History repeats itself? :huh:
(Severus legitimized his emperor status by claiming to be hair of Marcus Aurelius by adoption - I wonder if this may be foreshadowing. Snape will become Dumbledore's apprentice and replacement, and finally, Hogwarts Headmaster and/or Minister of Magic? )

Could Nigelluses be decended from younger son of Niger? Could Blacks and Malfoys/Snape be ancient rivals? Did Mrs. Black know too well about her heritage? Maybe she wanted so much to improve her family status, make her son right-hand of Voldemort, instead of Malfoy? And then, who knows... Voldemort may be mortal, too... :huh: (Sirius would have been so perfect for this plan: talented, smart, charismatic! But he had to run away to those Muggle-lovers! Ughhh.)

I start wondering that maybe Snape did Regulus in, too. :evil:

Anyway, apart from these Roman analogies, IMHO Snape slowly and gradually climbs up the ladder of Dumbledore's trust. The rest of people of his generation who may be close to Dumbledore, who are competition for DD's trust, are dying in various accidents one by one. From original Order there is only Lupin and Minerva left now who seem to have autoritative position in the Order. I get a bad feeling that Dumbledore, McGonagall and Lupin will all die corageously in the war, Harry will dispose of LV maybe at the cost of his own life, while Snape will kill Peter Pettigrew, get his Order of Merlin, and become a youngest Hogwarts Headmaster.

And who knows what is going on with Snape and LV... :evil:

And who knows what goes on in his Occlumency-protected mind?... :huh:

whizbang121

October 26th, 2004, 4:29 am

True. But since she is a goddes, no ancient Roman citizen would name his daughter Minerva - it would be sacrilege. Therefore my guess is that Minerva is a relative modernism - maybe McGonagall parents felt inventive (just like Grangers)? While the old pure-blood fanatics tried to emulate Roman patricians. Good point.

So Nigellus=little black? The diminuitive part does not sound too regal. If they are really blood royalty, maybe illegitimate? Or, maybe they are decended from Crown Prince's (or whatever the title is) younger brother, the one who is not to inherit the throne?

This, of course, is speculation/fantasy run amok. :) I think it can mean "blackish," too. Tough one.
And Niger means "Black"! And they fought each other in civil war for the throne of Rome! And Severus won! History repeats itself? :huh:
(Severus legitimized his emperor status by claiming to be hair of Marcus Aurelius by adoption - I wonder if this may be foreshadowing. Snape will become Dumbledore's apprentice and replacement, and finally, Hogwarts Headmaster and/or Minister of Magic? ) :wow: That's scary. I think in Rome, when someone from outside the family took the throne it was common practice to claim they had been adopted by their predecessor.
Could Nigelluses be decended from younger son of Niger? Could Blacks and Malfoys/Snape be ancient rivals?

I start wondering that maybe Snape did Regulus in, too. :evil:
You may have something there. :agree:

Anyway, apart from these Roman analogies, IMHO Snape slowly and gradually climbs up the ladder of Dumbledore's trust. The rest of people of his generation who may be close to Dumbledore, who are competition for DD's trust, are dying in various accidents one by one. From original Order there is only Lupin and Minerva left now who seem to have autoritative position in the Order. I get a bad feeling that Dumbledore, McGonagall and Lupin will all die corageously in the war, Harry will dispose of LV maybe at the cost of his own life, while Snape will kill Peter Pettigrew, get his Order of Merlin, and become a youngest Hogwarts Headmaster.

And who knows what is going on with Snape and LV... :evil:

And who knows what goes on in his Occlumency-protected mind?... :huh:http://websmileys.com/sm/crazy/349.gif

Wow! It reads like an ..... English mystery novel! http://websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing20.gif

The suspense. The intrigue! The surprise twist at the ending.
Suddenly, I'm reminded of Daphne Du Maurier.

But I cling to Dumbledore's refusal to let Snape teach DADA as proof that he doesn't trust him completely.

Nice analysis. :agree: The structure suddenly looks familiar.

barmy codger

October 26th, 2004, 5:49 am

This discussion caught me by surprise today, and while it's the sort of thing I enjoy and while I am a day late and a galleon short, here is this:
J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival
Who was the first character that you invented?

Harry. He really is the whole story. The whole plot is contained in Harry Potter; his past, present and future—that is the story. Harry came to me first and everything radiated out from him. I gave him his parents, then his past, then Hogwarts, and the wizarding world got bigger and bigger. He was the starting point.
As for Snape being a Black, why didn't Kreacher go to Snape instead of Narcissa? Surely Kreacher would have known him for a Black if he were. But we have only Dumbledore's account of Kreacher's actions and of Snape's.

In my opinion Snape has neither the intellectual nor emotional control to mastermind such a grand plot. If anyone does, it's Dumbledore, and there are just as many inconsistencies in his actions for suspecting him of having an agenda.

Alastor

October 26th, 2004, 7:21 am

Good point. I think it can mean "blackish," too.
That's exactly what it can. Niger is an adjective and diminutives of adjactives generally mean less of whatever property that adjective describes. Less black than black would as far as I understand be blackish or almost black or something like that. However, with a little bit of 'licentia poethica' any author is free to give it the meaning little black too.

Back to topic.
It seems to me that barmy codger has a point about Snape having too little emotional (I'm not sure about intellectual) control to mastermind any grand plot.

phoenix_angel

October 26th, 2004, 1:42 pm

Umm well to put it mildly I don't think that Snape is related to Sirius. He could be related to James considering you don't hear much about James's family or Snape's for that matter. You do hear a fair amount about Sirius's family in the 5th book and Rowling says in their that Regulus was killed under Voldermort's orders.

Machiavelli

October 26th, 2004, 2:20 pm

I think in Rome, when someone from outside the family took the throne it was common practice to claim they had been adopted by their predecessor.You may have something there.Well, sort of. Caesar, Julius did that because he had no legitimate son and so adopted his nephew who renamed himself Caesar Augustus (yes, biblical fame). There were sometimes adoptions, but eventually emperors were chosen as often by the army as they were through legitimate descent and the approval of the Republican Guard was more important than family lines. Might makes right!

The suspense. The intrigue! The surprise twist at the ending.
Suddenly, I'm reminded of Daphne Du Maurier. Rebecca?

Serpentina

October 26th, 2004, 3:48 pm

I sum up the contras about Snape being Regulus.

-Regulus was younger than Sirius, but Snape was approximatelly the same age as him (Sirius).
-Regulus was the apple of the eye of his family, Snape had terrible childhood memories.
-Mrs Black and the covering woman's nature seems like fire and water.
-If Snape was truly Regulus, then Snape wouldn't have existed at the time of Snape's Worst Memory. At that time Regulus was still alive. Everybody called Snape "Snape", not Regulus, so we can assume that it was the name he attended Hogwarts at the age of 11. Although he could have his name changed before that, but why would a noble and rich family do such things to their "celebrity"? He was the one who supposed to continue the family tradition and bring on the name.
-The Marauders map refers Snape as "Snape" too.
-Finally both Sirius and JK Rowling said that Regulus is dead. ;)

These are enough for me to exclude the possibility of Snape being Regulus, but I still think that he's a halfblood Black.

If there's a seperate plotline beneath our radar, either Snape has fooled Dumbledore, or for reasons we can't understand, Dumbledore has allowed Snape to believe that he's fooled the headmaster.
If Dumbledore had doubts about his true loyalties, then he wouldn't give him so important missions, he gave. Allowing him into Order business, teaching Harry occlumency, and overall let him involved in every serious events. And although the occlumency lessons failed, Dumbledore didn't refer to it as Snape's fault, in fact, "some scars run too deep for healing". Why would he try to make Harry trust Snape if he too himself was pretending to trust him?
About the DADA job, it must be part of the charade played for the Malfoys. When Snape got a job at Hogwarts, he was a spy (now I doubt that he goes anywhere near to Voldemort, as he'd kill him on sight after the Quirrell intident, at least I'd kill him without questioning in Voldemort's place)
His cover was pretending to be loyal to Dumbledore and trying to get informations from him. But in real, he gave irrevelant informations to the DEs, even false ones. When the DEs questioned him, he could tell them: "Dumbledore doesn't trust me completely, not enough to give me even that blasted job. Why would he give me so important informations?"
Now things changed only that he plays with Malfoy instead of Voldemort.

Oh I see. You're suggesting that Snape was in love with Lily. Yeah he was raving at the end of PoA, and he wouldn't let anyone say much of anything. If Snape is moving characters around like chesspieces, he's got to keep up the confusion, prevent anyone from figuring out what really happened. The last thing he wanted was for Sirius and Lupin to start comparing notes, or for Harry to see his plot unraveling. Snape needs Harry and Voldemort to get rid of each other when the racists are ready to make their move. :huh: I suspect Dumbledore is in more danger than he may realize. :agree:

Noooo, never. Snape was never in love with Lily. Their relation was somewhat different. I felt it rather like between relatives. Lily could be Snape's cousin through his mother's side. And talking about chesspieces, have you read my theory about the connection between the chessgame in PS/SS and the possible final events? The chess game in SS foreshadows the events of the second war (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=36626)

I'm glad you brought that up. In occlumency class, he told Harry only what he wanted him to know. But after every session, Harry's mind would be so weakened that Ron insisted Snape was softening Harry up for the Dark Lord. And Sirius opinion of Snape was proved correct.

Dumbledore himself said to Harry, that he didn't want Harrys mind being opened more in his presence, that's why he ordered the lessons with Snape. This insist, that it's the nature of the legilimency -as Hermione said: it's just like fever, getting worse before getting better. I trust more Dumbledore's and Hermione's word than Ron's, he's never right, when he's serious. And this time he was bloody serious. And finally Sirius is always acted on his feelings, it was his nature, but even he wanted the lessons to continue, even by forcing Snape. Another interesting addition, Dumbledore didn't ordered Snape to continue the lessons. He was aware of what happened, he told it to Harry, and I'm sure he got know about it right after what happened (in my opinion, Snape himself told him) but Lupin must have told him the day after at the very latest. Maybe it was because Harry didn't made a real effort to learn it and it was useless to endanger Snape's position for nothing?

It's been suggested that Snape's Worst Memory was put into the pensieve intentionally for Harry to see.

I don't think so, he was so raving mad, that it couldn't be an act. He was distracted by Malfoy (who else :huh: ) and remember Montague has disappeared for some days. And I think after what he saw in Harry's memories, he trusted him enough to leave him alone. Too bad.

Your suggestions are very possible following the overt plotline. But if there is a deeper plot, a plot where Snape is, as legallybrunette said, playing both sides to achieve his own ends, what other possibilities are there?

It's the first time I hear this compliment, usually I am said that I have too brisky fantasy, and my theories would fit to fan fictions instead. :rotfl:
To be serious, then we would offend again Dumbledore's abilities. The fact, that he doesn't use his powers to compel to others, doesn't mean, that he doesn't have them. He likes to play the role of an old fool, but he isn't one. In addition he isn't arrogant as Voldemort, who believes he is unfallible.

Kimmetje

October 26th, 2004, 3:54 pm

^ Regulus is dead as in they probably saw his body and burried him dead so he can't be Snape who is alive. Also I think that Snape still is a DE and was mentioned when LV said my most faithfull DE is still at Hogwarts which Snape is. So Snape is way closer to the DE group than Regulus who Sirius said was not real high up as LV did not seem to have killed the guy himself. Also Snape is smart enough to know that he should not step back when he is that close in the DE group as he would than be killed and he always seems to know how to save his own skin that guy.

Serpentina

October 26th, 2004, 4:06 pm

Finally, Blacks. Ordinary British name and "starry" first names. It is obviously a tradition: at least three families followed it: Sirius/Regulis, Bellatrix/Andromeda, Draco. (Edit: uncle Alfard is a star, too.) Why stars? :huh:
Phineas Nigellus means Black(egyptian) Black(latin). Did Blacks adopt the British version of their more ancient name some time after they moved to Britain? What is the history of Nigelluses? Egypt? Roman Empire? If they are part-royal, the name suggests some kind of illegitimate branch.

So Snape fits into the same patterns as Malfoy and Rookwood. BTW, in British versions of the books Rookwood is named Algernon. In this case, the only major characters with Roman-noble first names are Lucius and Severus! (there was I think Tiberius Ogden briefly mentioned...)
Maybe Snape is related to Malfoy, not Black? If Snape is illegitimate, maybe he wears his mother's last name, but his father insisted on naming him in family traditions, hence Severus?

You're on the same track as me. Maybe he was named after his mother's last name, and got his first name of his father's family tradition. Perseus Evans :eyebrows:
After small Perseus' mother died, Mr Black -avoiding the family scandal, sends him to live with the Malfoys (we know they were on good terms, the families are connected even by marriage) So they adopted him, but to avoid arosing suspicion they changed his name to Severus Snape, that noone knows. The Malfoys knew about Tom Riddle's diary, they would have find it amusing to use the same method to make up a name, as Voldemort did.

satnitesadnesss

October 26th, 2004, 4:56 pm

What is the underlying plot of this series? What's going on beneath the surface?

Why did the Dark Lord tell Harry his mother didn't have to die?

Who does Voldemort believe is his most faithful servant?

And how did both Harry and Voldemort survive the death curse in Godric's Hollow?

Maybe the dark lord loved Lily? hahaa..i now think Lupin, Snape AND evil VOLDY *gasp* were all in love with Lily. far-fetched. i shall have to seek another path of answers..

second question, no clue. you checked out "The Burrow" on www.mugglenet.com ? answers that question thoroughly.

Another interesting addition, Dumbledore didn't ordered Snape to continue the lessons. He was aware of what happened, he told it to Harry, and I'm sure he got know about it right after what happened (in my opinion, Snape himself told him) but Lupin must have told him the day after at the very latest. Maybe it was because Harry didn't made a real effort to learn it and it was useless to endanger Snape's position for nothing?

yeah, i think thats because "some scars run too deep for the healing". maybe, having snape in such an angry mood, might endanger harry, somehow? snapes a double agent, he just about admitted it to harry during one of the occlumency sessions.

Aurum

October 26th, 2004, 8:43 pm

Why did the Dark Lord tell Harry his mother didn't have to die?

It just occured to me that Voldemort knew killing his mother would invoke the protection that caused his downfall. This is why he attempted to avoid killing her, but obviously something went wrong.

Oh, and I dont think the story is really about Snape. I find it hard to believe he's really back on the good side, but I dont think he's the pivotal character in the story - it just doesn't fit.

whizbang121

October 27th, 2004, 12:15 am

Rebecca?One of my favorites way back when. She wrote others, too, including the short story that Alfred Hitchcock filmed and called "The Birds."

Was Rebecca considered a gothic novel? :huh:

Umm well to put it mildly I don't think that Snape is related to Sirius.

Family relationships are something we don't have much information on at all. I've always thought that descriptions of Viktor Krum are somewhat similar to young Snape. And Viktor and his father are both described as having hooked noses. In terms of physical descriptions, Snape seems most like them ..... with more grease. (Why grease?! What is it with all the grease?

Is she telling us that he's slippery? Vodlemort accuses Malfoy of being slippery. :sigh:)
:grumble:

cajitasazules

October 27th, 2004, 1:01 am

I find it hard to believe he's really back on the good side, but I dont think he's the pivotal character in the story - it just doesn't fit.

If you do not feel he is the pivotal character, would you concide his significance is beyond that of many other characters in the story as many questions that arise are related to him in some way? He fits in to most questions in many ways based on his broad experiences in the novels and with his juxtaposition to almost everyone around him - evil working with good. Eliminate his character and there are many further questions left unanswered.

----
Have we considered any additional connections of clues in Shakespeare to the series and its outcomes?

Obviously, Hermione's name comes from A Winter's Tale and The Weird Sisters from Macbeth.

There maybe deeper connections to Shakespeare's stories, since JKR seems to have a great appreciation for English literature and it was stated here earlier that it reads like an English mystery novel.

Perhaps there are clues we are overlooking, perhaps in the histories. (Although we studied 15 plays in my university Shakespeare course it was 4 years ago and it would take a bit of time to find the old notes, etc.)

----
Interesting that JKR mentioned that Muggle-borns are admitted into the DE's in extreme situations. Are we overlooking a known DE or could its be someone not yet introduced.

----

Based on what has been said, I'm not too sure that Snape is Regulus, but finding out more to Regulus may provide more information. Snape was known as Snape when at Hogwarts, so it's unlikely he assumed and changed identities at any point during that time and Sirius would have known something was not 100% right.

----

Shall we look at Sirius and how he is not 100% innocent in matters?

----

If Snape is manipulating his own agenda, which I think he is out to serve largely is own interests, what is his true ultimate aim? Is he trying to restore a family to full status or is he looking for confirmation and acceptance in a society that he never truly felt he belonged to? Snape does tend to think of himself, even saving Harry in PS/SS was to eliminate his debt to James Potter not out of geniune concern for Harry, although he could have considered that he saved Harry once and if he risked his life once that was enough to fulfil the obligation?

When did James save Snape? Is it the Lupin incident, like we have perceived and are led to believe is the truth?

----

Phew, that was long, but all these ideas and thoughts came flying out of my mind and on to the screen. I'll be back after work tomorrow to see what's going on. I'm really enjoying this thread and am looking forward to seeing the new thoughts/posts and wish I could access it legally from my office, but alas, I'm not working at home, so I'll have to wait. :( *pout*

whizbang121

October 27th, 2004, 1:01 am

[Quote=J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival]]
Who was the first character that you invented?

Harry. He really is the whole story. The whole plot is contained in Harry Potter; his past, present and future—that is the story. Harry came to me first and everything radiated out from him. I gave him his parents, then his past, then Hogwarts, and the wizarding world got bigger and bigger. He was the starting point.Good one. Well, can we call Snape's Agenda a subplot? :D
In my opinion Snape has neither the intellectual nor emotional control to mastermind such a grand plot. If anyone does, it's Dumbledore, and there are just as many inconsistencies in his actions for suspecting him of having an agenda.
You have a point, or two. I don't like to underestimate Snape. He does fly off the handle. I still think that the Snape at the end of PoA is the genuine article.
Readers reactions to Snape are so extreme. They either adore him, or (like me), they would shoot him on sight. And the funny thing is, that both sides can defend their view quite well from canon and interviews. How can we all be talking about the same character? I suspect the answer may have something to do with the idea that there is Snape in the main plot and there is Snape working behind the scenes on something else entirely.

James and Sirius are dead and Lupin is an outcast. Why are L Malfoy and Snape so tight? Why did Molly keep a common garden rat ... for 12 years? And why doesn't she want her children, connected to the house of Black, (because of a love potion?) to know anything? What is she afraid they will figure out? Kreacher takes orders from the twins, but he won't from Tonks. :huh:

JKR said once that Book Two was the key to the series. In Book two, we learn that some wizards are racists, we hear Malfoy express his feelings about pureblood supremacy, we discover that Slytherin and Gryffindor parted ways over a disagreement about educating muggleborn or mixed blood wizards and we see Malfoy make an attempt to resurrect a young and idealistic Tom Riddle, committed to killing or frightening off muggleborn students.

But even at sixteen, young Riddle already dreamed of power and World Dominion. He gave up Slytherin's objective in favor of his own. I think that it was when this became evident in the magical world that some racists backed off supporting him. It looks to me as though there are two different agendas at work. Voldemort's annual picnic and "tonight we're going to take over the world" dance, and an ancient agenda to purge the magical world of muggleborns and mixed bloods.

When Harry asks Sirius if Umbridge is a DE, his godfather tells him that not all evil people are DEs. :huh: And Umbridge is clearly a racist.

I want to reread the parts in OotP where Sirius and the kids are going through various Black artifacts. I remember a signet ring, and a viall of something that looked like blood. There was a book of geneology, too. I'll look it all up.

The Black crest comes up again at the table when Mundungus asks if the cups are real silver. He says the crest will come off. What is JKR telling us about the House of Black, toujours pur, that maybe I haven't picked up, yet?

Baseball!

Expecto Patronum!

anabel

October 27th, 2004, 11:55 am

Why did Molly keep a common garden rat ... for 12 years?
It was a pet for her kids and she couldn't afford to buy one. Molly didn't look after it as Charlie (?) was old enough to look after a rat himself and he took it to school with him before giving it to Ron.

Readers reactions to Snape are so extreme. They either adore him, or (like me), they would shoot him on sight. And the funny thing is, that both sides can defend their view quite well from canon and interviews. How can we all be talking about the same character?
Well, that is the sign of a well-written character. JKR is a genius! Snape is very important to the older readers, who as you say either love or hate him. To the youngsters he is just a teacher who bullies Harry. Snape is probably the single most interesting character in the book. These forums are proof of that!
Only the very best authors can create such a strong response to their characters.

Machiavelli

October 27th, 2004, 3:05 pm

Readers reactions to Snape are so extreme. They either adore him, or (like me), they would shoot him on sight. And the funny thing is, that both sides can defend their view quite well from canon and interviews. How can we all be talking about the same character? I suspect the answer may have something to do with the idea that there is Snape in the main plot and there is Snape working behind the scenes on something else entirely. How about me? I think he's a fantastic character and quite loathsome. I wouldn't shoot him on sight though...

Why did Molly keep a common garden rat ... for 12 years? Sorry, I can't quite buy the whole evil Molly thing. With the chaos at the burrow I can easily see how Pettigrew would just be another established thing that no one paid much attention to. If the rat don't die, don't replace it (Weasley version of if it ain't broke...).

But even at sixteen, young Riddle already dreamed of power and World Dominion. He gave up Slytherin's objective in favor of his own.I think it's a bit more complex. The more interesting thing to me is that he was more clearly dreaming of immortality already - at that extremely young age. Most boys at that point think they already are immortal!

Riddle, like many other sociopaths, has an agenda shared by others, but also has the basic belief that he is the only one who can properly achieve those ends. It becomes a chicken-egg story as to whether the lust for power inspires the desire to put through the agenda, or the desire to achieve the agenda produces the lust for power.

What does happen with most of these types of people is that the belief that only they can do what needs to be done becomes more essential until their own personal desires are as important or more important than the original goals - again fueled originally by the perceived need to produce the wanted ends. Naturally he'll be able to gather followers based on the purging platform but his means and his additional goals will winnow those ranks down to the most fanatical supporters - those who either buy into his own image of himself (Bellatrix) or those who are ruthlessly ambitious and feel V is their best means to their own ends (Malfoy)

I want to reread the parts in OotP where Sirius and the kids are going through various Black artifacts. I remember a signet ring, and a viall of something that looked like blood. There was a book of geneology, too. I'll look it all up.Yup - a noble lineage of true wizards. It's like the stud book in England of aristocratic families. There was also a locket no one could open that has always intrigued me... what the heck was in there?

Baseball!

Expecto Patronum! Congratulations - right? They won again didn't they?

egonza44

October 27th, 2004, 4:15 pm

I find very interesting all the stuff about the name origins and so on. I don't know Greek or Roman history deeply, but I can see what you mean. Maybe that can help us to understand some things in the story or, at the end, can relate some facts. :huh:

About Snape's importance, I think that he is the barrier between the children story and the adult story. In the children story you can find Harry and Voldemort, and the story of what a common child can do, to encourage children and so on. But if you follow the clues that Snape is leaving throughout the 5 books you uncover a huge story.

In my opinion he's a very intelligent person, so this is not a problem, but I agree with the person that said that he has emotional problems. I mean, we have seen loads of his reactions that show us that he had a cruel childhood and we have checked he hasn't forgotten it. DD admitted that he had "scars too difficult to heal". Maybe these wounds never get healed. This is what make me think about what happened to Snape in the past that doesn't leave him forgot. He got very "upset" when Harry saw his memories, he finished the Oclu lessons, but DD didn't insist on going on with them. Why? I'm sure that he knows the thing that tortures Snape, so maybe he doesn't want Snape sufferes more. Or perhaps it's a very revealing matter that nobody can't discover to not put in risk Snape's mission and life.

I guess that Snape is related to Malfoy (as relativies I mean) so he's related to Sirius. Sirius didn't know it or if he did he never told anything to anybody, even Harry, maybe to protect Severus? But why Sirius'd want to protect Severus? In the other hand I think that Malfoy knows it. This could explain the good terms between them. But I'm not sure about the relation with the Evans family. Why, so, he's so nasty with Harry, a relative of him? I don't know, maybe you have any suggestion. :eyebrows:

JKR said that he's not muggleborn, but it's probable that he be a mudblood. Because he hates mudbloods I believe that was his father the muggle. This man treated him as he was rabbish and maybe (I can't remenber) he deserted his child, so can explain the hate that Snape has to the persons like him. The same happened to Tom Riddle. This is a reason too to have good terms with Malfoy. And maybe this was the reason that made Snape take part in Voldemort's side. But what happened that made him change his mind? :evil:

whizbang121

October 28th, 2004, 12:46 am

How about me? I think he's a fantastic character and quite loathsome. I wouldn't shoot him on sight though... wishy washy? ;)

Sorry, I can't quite buy the whole evil Molly thing. With the chaos at the burrow I can easily see how Pettigrew would just be another established thing that no one paid much attention to. If the rat don't die, don't replace it (Weasley version of if it ain't broke...). Just as likely. I'll have to look around for the rest of my list. It's in one of the Molly threads. But in the end, only JKR knows. ....... Any news on book six?
The more interesting thing to me is that he was more clearly dreaming of immortality already - at that extremely young age. Most boys at that point think they already are immortal!
Riddle, like many other sociopaths, has an agenda shared by others, but also has the basic belief that he is the only one who can properly achieve those ends. ...
Naturally he'll be able to gather followers based on the purging platform but his means and his additional goals will winnow those ranks down to the most fanatical supporters - those who either buy into his own image of himself (Bellatrix) or those who are ruthlessly ambitious and feel V is their best means to their own ends (Malfoy). Are you saying that Malfoy only follows Voldemort to forward his own agenda? Cause that's what I think may be happening. :agree:

Yup - a noble lineage of true wizards. It's like the stud book in England of aristocratic families. There was also a locket no one could open that has always intrigued me... what the heck was in there?

Congratulations - right? They won again didn't they?:clap: Yes! :clap:

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=966495&postcount=151
Well, it's no secret I don't trust Molly Weasley. I think she's Voldemort's most faithful servant. How did Scabbers come to be in the Weasley household and in fact, come to be Percy's rat?
During the row between Mr and Mrs Weasley that Harry overhears in the PoA, Mrs Weasley who doesn't want Harry to know about Sirius Black, says to Mr. Weasley that they don't even know if Sirius is after Harry. Mr Weasley loses his patience, and says something like "How many times do I have to tell you ....."
But she was right! How did she know? She knew the rat wa Pettigrew and she'd been harboring him the whole time.

Sirius said that purebloods all had to intermarry if they wanted to keep the lines pure. Why did Molly need to make a love potion when she was young?

Why doesn't she want the kids to anything about anything?
And why does she hate Sirius?
And why has she taken Harry under her wing and claimed control of decisions concerning him? Hmmmm...... She certainly has gained his trust, hasn't she?

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=963413&postcount=133
I think Molly is Voldemort's most faithful servant. Why did Percy and then Ron have Scabbers? And why was she making love potions when she was young? Why does she hate Sirius almost as much as Snape does? If she was a pureblood and her family wanted her to marry a pureblood, did she have to use a love potion on Arthur? Sirius mentions that pureblood families were all inter related because there were so few.

But Scabbers ..........
And why doesn't she ever want the kids to know anything?
In PoA, (the book) when she and Arthur have the row about what to tell Harry about Sirius Black, she says they don't even know if Black is after Harry. Arthur loses his temper and says something like, "How many times do I have to tell you ....." Why would she bring up this point at all, and repeatedly at that, if she didn't know about Scabbers?

I don't trust Molly any further than I can throw her.

I've modified my view. I'm not sure who Voldemort's most trusted servant is, but I think Molly has is part of an ancient conspiracy that has a racist agenda outside the main plotline.

Or, you know ....... whatever.

Dean Thomas:

I am reluctant to believe that Dean is Sirius's son for one reason:
Dean is black by skin color, it would be a bit over-the-top if he were a Black by heritage also. A bit cartoonish. Hmmm... Yeah, or a hint. The kind of hint Dobby would drop on someone's head and make a tremendous mess out of, but .....
Maybe that's why we see that Ginny is dating Dean at the end of OotP. Wizards don't see people in black and white.

Arithmancy

October 28th, 2004, 2:12 am

Are you saying that Malfoy only follows Voldemort to forward his own agenda? Cause that's what I think may be happening. :agree:
Me, too! Slippery friend, indeed.

About Snape and Lucius: why are they friends? (Apart from maybe being relatives and/or old school friends.)
Lucius pretended to be under Imperius Curse during VWI. What if Snape had evidence that he was not, but chose not to reveal it? Same with Snape being a spy, it was revealed during Karkaroff's trial, in the presence of Ministry officials. Lucius has connections in the Ministry, and he would be interested in what exactly Karkaroff said, so Lucius probably knows about Snape's double role. What if Lucius covers for Snape on LV's side? Maybe they are bound by mutual debt? And/or by a common goal? :huh: Like take power when LV is vanquished?

There are plenty of little red herrings hinting on their relationship: 1)how upset Snape was when Harry mentioned Malfoy's name at the end of GoF. Sure, if they want to quietly take over WW it would not be in their interest to have Lucius outed as a DE. 2)How Sirius in OotP thought that the worst insult for Snape is "Lucius Malfoy's lapdog", while before that in GoF he did not even mention their connection (was unaware?). 3)We have not really seen Snape's reaction to Malfoy's imprisonment at the end of OotP, but from what we see he does not seem overjoyed. When Snape breaks down Potter-Malfoy Jr. fight, he is rather grumpy and speaks without his usual sarcasm - sign of depressed mood?

Anyway, it seems Snape jenuinely cares about Lucius on persnal level, not just as a useful contact. After all, if Lucius is merely a source of information for Snape and the Order, then Snape would have felt relieved at his imprisonment: no more dangerous spying work. But no, Snape is displeased... :huh:

Hmmm... Yeah, or a hint. The kind of hint Dobby would drop on someone's head and make a tremendous mess out of, but .....
Maybe that's why we see that Ginny is dating Dean at the end of OotP. Wizards don't see people in black and white.Could be...could be...

Anyway, if this is true I'll be glad. People like Sirius need to procreate! :D

tjrih

October 28th, 2004, 2:15 am

whizbang121

October 28th, 2004, 3:50 am

I sum up the contras about Snape being Regulus.

-Regulus was younger than Sirius, but Snape was approximatelly the same age as him (Sirius).:sigh: You realize this stuff is over a year old, right?
They could be twins. They could be eleven months apart. Interesting to wait and see what birthdays JKR assigns them. Think she will? :)
-Regulus was the apple of the eye of his family, Snape had terrible childhood memories. Well, one anyway. And we don't know what all the yelling was about. Suppose the yelling was about Sirius? As for the lonely teen and the bucking broomstick, don't all teens have those moments? Seem oddly normal somehow.

Snape accuses Harry of thinking he's special. Why? Is it because he thinks he's the special one?
-Mrs Black and the covering woman's nature seems like fire and water. Mrs Black seems quite insane. Could an abusive father or husband have put her in that state? We just don't have enough information to make a statement like that.
-If Snape was truly Regulus, then Snape wouldn't have existed at the time of Snape's Worst Memory. At that time Regulus was still alive. Everybody called Snape "Snape", not Regulus, so we can assume that it was the name he attended Hogwarts at the age of 11. They called him Snivellus. I don't believe the name Snape was used in SWMemory at all. But Sirius and Remus do refer to the character as Snape in the Shrieking Shack. As you say, he could have had his name changed, but likely it would have been after his family got cold feet about Voldemort and he'd left to hide under Dumbledore's protection. Hard to say.... but why would a noble and rich family do such things to their "celebrity"? He was the one who supposed to continue the family tradition and bring on the name.Well because Sirius was the oldest son, and the DEs were supposedly after Regulus.
-The Marauders map refers Snape as "Snape" too.
-Finally both Sirius and JK Rowling said that Regulus is dead. ;) Possible the map had been made after the name change or simply acknowledges it. CrouchJr was in polyjuice and Scabbers was transformed. Their names were not changed, so the map showed them.
Sirius is unconvincing and JKR may be giving a hint, like Dobby's. The implication being again, a name change.

But I'll say this again, I'm not saying that Snape is Regulus. I'm just saying I'm not convinced he isn't. It doesn't matter much to the possible pureblood supremecist conspiracy one way or the other.
If Dumbledore had doubts about his true loyalties, then he wouldn't give him so important missions, he gave. Allowing him into Order business, teaching Harry occlumency, and overall let him involved in every serious events. We don't know what missions Dumbledore gave Snape. And I think to Snape's surprise, Harry did learn occlumency, in spite of him. Is that why lessons had to be stopped? Maybe Snape didn't really want Harry to learn. He certainly didn't build up his confidence. And although the occlumency lessons failed, Dumbledore didn't refer to it as Snape's fault, in fact, "some scars run too deep for healing". Isn't that making it Snape's fault? Dumbledore took the blame on himself because the final decision was his and he should have known Snape was incapable of controlling himself. If that's what happened. Why would he try to make Harry trust Snape if he too himself was pretending to trust him? Isn't that a darned good question. :eyebrows: I think he has something on Snape, but he underestimates his ability to keep Snape in line and doesn't trust him completely.

But honestly, I suspect that Dumbledore expected more from Snape. Is it possible he doesn't realize there's an agenda besides the Harry/Voldemort main plotline, or that Snape may be a part of it? Seems unlikely somehow, but...............
What I don't understand is why Snape and Filch are back in the castle at the end of OotP. (Is Filch back in the castle? Suddenly, I'm not sure. Hmmmm......) Filch was clearly helping Umbridge and Snape proved Dumbledore's trust was misplaced. I wonder if he volunteered to teach Harry occlumency. Maybe he even suggested it to Dumbledore.

What if Snape is trying to manipulate Dumbledore the way Malfoy manipulates Fudge? (Is Molly manipulating Arthur?)
Is Dumbledore stringing him along to keep him where he can see him? Dumbledore also has some inconsistent behaviour that we have been unable to satisfactorily explain. Some of us, (myself included) entertain the possibility that Dumbledore is Ron, having been sent back in time and thus manipulating events in Harry's favor. But there are clearly times when Dumbledore is taken by surprise. He seemed off balance several times in GoF.
About the DADA job, it must be part of the charade played for the Malfoys. When Snape got a job at Hogwarts, he was a spy (now I doubt that he goes anywhere near to Voldemort, as he'd kill him on sight after the Quirrell intident, at least I'd kill him without questioning in Voldemort's place)
His cover was pretending to be loyal to Dumbledore and trying to get informations from him. But in real, he gave irrevelant informations to the DEs, even false ones. When the DEs questioned him, he could tell them: "Dumbledore doesn't trust me completely, not enough to give me even that blasted job. Why would he give me so important informations?"
Now things changed only that he plays with Malfoy instead of Voldemort.Very logical. JKR said that Dumbledore believes that the DADA position would bring out the worst in Snape, so he put him in potions to see how he would do there.

Is he entirely loyal to Dumbledore, though? James and Sirius are dead. Lupin is an outcast. Pettigrew is safe in Molly's household. And where is Snape. In the middle of a spider's web. :agree:
...I felt it rather like between relatives. Lily could be Snape's cousin through his mother's side. Is there even a shred of evidence for that one? He called her a mudblood! And talking about chesspieces, have you read my theory about the connection between the chessgame in PS/SS and the possible final events? I've read a couple. I'll check to see if yours was one of them. :agree:The chess game in SS foreshadows the events of the second war (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=36626)
Dumbledore himself said to Harry, that he didn't want Harry's mind being opened more in his presence, that's why he ordered the lessons with Snape. Hermione is guessing and Ron was right. Occlumency is supposed to be closing the mind. If Dumbledore was afraid to have Harry's mind open in his presence, why on earth was Snape's safer? Snape is the mystery. What won't Dumbledore tell Harry/us about Snape. And finally Sirius is '''
but even he wanted the lessons to continue, even by forcing Snape. Sirius and Lupin had been reassured about the necessity of these lessons by Dumbledore. Snape may have convinced Dumbledore that Harry needed these lessons and only he could teach him. Dumbledore then simply imformed the Order of his decision. Sirius didn't like it, but he was convinced that Harry needed to learn this. In the end, as Dumbledore noted, it didn't matter. So, were Sirius and Ron wrong? Or was Dumbledore snookered? Another interesting addition, Dumbledore didn't ordered Snape to continue the lessons. He was aware of what happened, he told it to Harry, and I'm sure he got know about it right after what happened (in my opinion, Snape himself told him) but Lupin must have told him the day after at the very latest. Maybe it was because Harry didn't made a real effort to learn it and it was useless to endanger Snape's position for nothing? But Harry did learn it. In the lesson before SWM, Harry succesfully broke through the legilimency spell, cast the protego, (which should have been too weak a spell to make much of a difference) and reflected the spell back on Snape allowing Harry to see his memories and leaving Snape white and shaking. The next try, Harry saw the corridor. Why? Did Snape put it there? Or did Snape plant the vision in Voldemort's mind so Harry would see it there and Voldemort would think it was his own idea? As for what Snape tells the headmaster, well......
Isn't Snape an accomplished occlumens? Just what does Dumbledore "know?"
To be serious, then we would offend again Dumbledore's abilities. The fact, that he doesn't use his powers to compel to others, doesn't mean, that he doesn't have them. He likes to play the role of an old fool, but he isn't one. In addition he isn't arrogant as Voldemort, who believes he is unfallible. I couldn't agree more. Dumbledore also seems to have an agenda beyond the main plot. But I haven't thought that far yet.

^ Regulus is dead as in they probably saw his body and burried him dead so he can't be Snape who is alive. Guess I missed the funeral. Where did you see anything like that?
As this thread is not about Snape being Regulus, may I suggest
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=17441&highlight=Regulus
Also I think that Snape still is a DE and was mentioned when LV said my most faithfull DE is still at Hogwarts which Snape is. So Snape is way closer to the DE group than Regulus who Sirius said was not real high up as LV did not seem to have killed the guy himself. Also Snape is smart enough to know that he should not step back when he is that close in the DE group as he would than be killed and he always seems to know how to save his own skin that guy.:stunned:
Would you like to comment on the topic of the thread? At all? Anything? :)

You're on the same track as me. Maybe he was named after his mother's last name, and got his first name of his father's family tradition. Perseus Evans :eyebrows:
After small Perseus' mother died, Mr Black -avoiding the family scandal, sends him to live with the Malfoys (we know they were on good terms, the families are connected even by marriage) So they adopted him, but to avoid arosing suspicion they changed his name to Severus Snape, that noone knows. The Malfoys knew about Tom Riddle's diary, they would have find it amusing to use the same method to make up a name, as Voldemort did.Now I know where you got your reputation for fanfic. Nowhere is there any evidence of a Perseus Evans in the HP Series. Nothing. It's an anagram for Severus Snape. Everything else is fanfiction.
And Snape is not a vampire, either.

----
Have we considered any additional connections of clues in Shakespeare to the series and its outcomes? :Lots of subplots and secret agendas in Shakespeare. Give it a try. :agree:
Snape was known as Snape when at Hogwarts, so it's unlikely he assumed and changed identities at any point during that time and Sirius would have known something was not 100% right. I don't think we know that he was known as Snape at Hogwarts. We only hear him called Snivellus in the SWM.----

Snape's intentions are definitely impossible to figure. I wonder what story he told Dumbledore that Dumbledore accepted? :huh: And I wonder if he should have.

Me, too! Slippery friend, indeed.

Anyway, if this is true I'll be glad. People like Sirius need to procreate! :D Yes!
This is what I'm saying!!!

What if Sirius (or Regulus) left behind a son? A half blood prince! And what if the half blood prince is ....... Dean Thomas!

Who is dating Ginny by the end of OofP. (Hope they're not too closely related.)

grrliz

October 28th, 2004, 3:54 am

Whiz, that is officially the world's longest post. :)

whizbang121

October 28th, 2004, 4:04 am

Good thread Whiz. As you know, I distrust Molly a great deal as well. You also have to consider her dislike of Hermione. Remember the Rita Skeeter article? Maybe it is the blood thing? I also believe in my skewed mind that it was Molly who should have been on guard in the MoM the night Harry & Assoc. showed up. Or maybe she was there lurking in the shadows, and that is why Ron was not injured severely like the others. She may have hexed him (maybe it was not the brain that may him act so goofy) to get him out of the way. Interesting. I don't think we can back it up, though. And wasn't Arthur still in the hospital? Tough one.
Why wasn't anyone guarding the DoM when the kids got there? The De's might have taken someone out.
People may point out that Hermione seems to be around the Weasleys a lot, but there is an old saying, "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer." And if Molly is a supremacist married to a muggle lover, she has to keep up appearances. But she is awful close to Percy. And Percy is a ?
With Lucius, I agree that he is a smart guy who knows full well what he needs from his relationship with Voldemort. I doubt whether he actually get too involved with the physical torturing as he had ample opportunity to harm Harry in the MoM, whether Harry was holding the prophecy precariously or not. Lucius would welcome the day that Voldemort is vanquished for good.I agree. And they need Harry to do it for them.

Whiz, that is officially the world's longest post. :)I'm watching the World Series. I can only concentrate on one topic. Hey where is everybody?

Sevenegrus

October 28th, 2004, 4:24 am

cajitasazules

October 28th, 2004, 2:27 pm

Go Red Sox! Woohoo!

Until this thread, I've never considered the evilness, potentially, of Molly Weasley. There has always been something about her character that I have disliked, but I haven't figured out what it is yet. It would make more sense for someone less obvious that Snape to be the traitor/double agent/inner circle villain. JKR shys away from the obvious, which is why I do not believe Snape to be as bad as he is portrayed by many, but there is someone who will pounce when we least expect it. Perhaps Percy is trying to distance himself from his family because he knows something and a way to completely remove himself is to tell everyone to get away from HP and the entire matter. Granted, it's still not good for Percy, but he may know what we know not...

Serpentina

October 28th, 2004, 4:31 pm

And we don't know what all the yelling was about. Suppose the yelling was about Sirius? As for the lonely teen and the bucking broomstick, don't all teens have those moments? Seem oddly normal somehow.

If the yell was about Sirius, then why would Snape cry? We know they haven't liked each other since year one. If they had been on good terms before, I don't see why they'd have loathed each other at Hogwarts. I assumed the yell was about Snape.
And although a bucking broom could be normal, but the lonely teen in a dark room isn't normal at all if we add Rowling's description too: "Snape-the-teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a plant kept in the dark."
I can't help, but the Perseus story keeps to come in my mind, where Perseus' grandfather locked up his daughter and her son, because of a prophecy that foreshadowed his grandson would kill him.

Snape accuses Harry of thinking he's special. Why? Is it because he thinks he's the special one?

Because he's not special. If we follow only canon, then it was Harry's mother, who's merit was to save Harry and destroy Voldemort into vapour. Harry -as an infant- hasn't done anything. If we let our fantasy fly, and put the case that Snape had something to do with the fact, that Harry didn't die of the AK course (a "stopper to death potion") then it's even more understandable.

Mrs Black seems quite insane. Could an abusive father or husband have put her in that state?

I always assumed that it was Mrs Black, who was the more pure-blood maniac, because Kreacher was more fond of her, than Sirius' father. And Sirius himself: he didn't have trouble throwing out all family relics (would have included the portrait of his mother too, if he could), but not only he kept his father ring, but put it on!

As you say, he could have had his name changed, but likely it would have been after his family got cold feet about Voldemort and he'd left to hide under Dumbledore's protection.

Regulus was killed in the year Harry was born. Even if he was accepted to DE, right after he graduated it doesn't leave him much time. His parents were proud of him joining, if they got cold feet it must have been only when Regulus wanted to out. But it must have been after Hogwarts anyway. Then the problem is: it would be a common knowledge at least in the Marauder's year, that Regulus changed name, because his appearence stayed as it was. Harry was able to recognise Snape without problem. So my assumption: if Snape ever changed name, it must have been in his early childhood.

Well because Sirius was the oldest son, and the DEs were supposedly after Regulus.
By the time Sirius got to Hogwarts, his parents could have an inkling, that he won't be the next noble Black. First he was sorted into Gryffindor, then was hanging out with a bunch of halfboods and blood traitors. But most importantly: he run away from home in their 5 or 6 year, by that time Regulus couldn't be a DE yet. So the Blacks knew that Sirius is a blood traitor, then they must have concentrate on Regulus instead. Why would they change his name in that period (Sirius' runaway and Regulus graduation)? If they changed it after the graduation, the Marauder's map would refer Snape as Regulus.

Possible the map had been made after the name change or simply acknowledges it. CrouchJr was in polyjuice and Scabbers was transformed. Their names were not changed, so the map showed them.
If the map acknowledge name changes, then it should accept Barty Crouch Jr's name change too, he not only used Moody's name but technically changed to him.

I think to Snape's surprise, Harry did learn occlumency, in spite of him. Is that why lessons had to be stopped? Maybe Snape didn't really want Harry to learn. In the lesson before SWM, Harry succesfully broke through the legilimency spell, cast the protego, (which should have been too weak a spell to make much of a difference) and reflected the spell back on Snape allowing Harry to see his memories and leaving Snape white and shaking.

He continued the lessons for 2 months, but they couldn't move from stage one. You must admit, that Harry didn't practiced at all, and hardly made any effort. Why did Snape continue this struggle if he didn't want Harry to learn occlumency? After Harry reflected his spell with Protego, he -in his own way- complimented him! And every time, Harry managed to throw him out of his head. He was angry only when he saw such memories in Harry's head that shouldn't be there, and when it became obvious, that Harry doesn't make an effort. After 2 months of lessons he said: "Remind me why are we here, Potter." The lessons wasn't stopped because Harry broke into his memories with using Protego. When Malfoy interrupted them, he said to Harry, that next day they'll continue. The lessons stopped because of the Pensieve intident. And I don't think that he left it in purpose, he simply was distracted by Malfoy -and a possibly injured student- and it wasn't the first time Harry was left alone with the Pensieve, just in that case Harry was more curious about Trelawney's shrieks.

Dumbledore took the blame on himself because the final decision was his and he should have known Snape was incapable of controlling himself... ...and doesn't trust him completely.

Then we come to the possibility of Evil!Dumbledore? :rotfl: He doesn't trust Snape completely, but takes all blame on himself to defend Snape, in the hope that Harry would trust Snape. Awww, it's too much for me.
Dumbledore told Harry, that he won't lie. Then he said that he trusted Snape. We must accept, that he trust Snape completely.

Is it possible he doesn't realize there's an agenda besides the Harry/Voldemort main plotline, or that Snape may be a part of it? Seems unlikely somehow, but...............

Unlikely. It would be another insult to Dumbledore's intelligence and abilities. Even more, because he was a teacher of Lucius Malfoy, Sirius and Snape, so he must know more of their relations than we. And if we were able to deduce some weird things from it, then he must have much clearer picture. In addition Dumbledore is comfortable on the stage of politics too, remember Fudge used to ask for his suggestions.

What I don't understand is why Snape and Filch are back in the castle at the end of OotP. (Is Filch back in the castle? Suddenly, I'm not sure. Hmmmm......) Filch was clearly helping Umbridge and Snape proved Dumbledore's trust was misplaced.

JKR said that Filch stays in the castle all year. We don't know why he's there in the first place, as he seems very sadistic. Dumbledore must have a reason to keep him there. And for Snape, why was Dumbledore's trust misplaced? Apart from stopping the lessons (which Dumbledore was aware of, long before the MOM intident) he saved the day. Solved Harry's cryptic message, checked on Sirius, then alerted the order and told Sirius to stay on his bottom. Dumbledore says so, do you say, that he's lying?

What if Snape is trying to manipulate Dumbledore the way Malfoy manipulates Fudge?
Fudge and Dumbledore is clearly not the same category. Fudge is blinded by his power-hunger, Dumbledore is far away from it. Not mentioning, that their intellectual and other abilities are.....hmm...different.

Is Dumbledore stringing him along to keep him where he can see him?
He was left alone a couple of times, for example in COS when Dumbledore was suspended, it would have been a great possibility to Snape to gain headmastership. He would have Lucius' -the most influental man's- vote. But he didn't.

Is there even a shred of evidence for that one? He called her a mudblood!
Yes, in a very emotional situation, being a teenager boy, saved by a girl in front of the whole school. In addition in front of the eyes of his fellow Slytherins. But if he meant it, why don't he insult Harry's mother, not even in private? He despises only James, but doesn't have a single bad word for Lily. Why?
And if he really was a racist, then he'd call Hermione a mudblood, not know-it-all.

Hermione is guessing and Ron was right.
Up till now, Ron was never right, only when he was joking. In this case he was serious. Hermione is usually right, as Dumbledore. Their word is against Ron. I take theirs.

The next try, Harry saw the corridor. Why? Did Snape put it there? Or did Snape plant the vision in Voldemort's mind so Harry would see it there and Voldemort would think it was his own idea?
You can't put visions to another's head by legilimency, just SEE memories. Harry saw the corridor, because LV was thinking of it. They have a tight connection via scar. Very likely Voldemort was peering through Harry's eyes the whole time, and maybe he could have used legilimency too, through Harry. Interesting, on one of the lessons, Snape told Harry to close his eyes... hmm. Prevention? And in the Protego case, Harry was able to fight back the legilimens spell in fact of he was very angry. What if it wasn't him? What if it was Voldemort? It could be the reason, why Snape needed the pensieve. He protected the thoughts of him, not necessary Harry.
Here's my view of the occlumency/legilimency fiasco. First, between Harry and Voldemort it's not an usual legilimency situation. They are connected by the scar. When Harry was dreaming, he was the one who looked through Voldemort's eyes, therefore he was in the Dark Lord's head. He was involuntary poking in his mind. To prevent this, Harry was told to clear his mind before going to sleep, don't delve in his mind if it's not necessary. The occlumency lessons were to protect informations, Harry could gain. Living with the members of the Order, he could see such things, they don't want to let to Voldemort's knowledge.
Harry was dreaming of the corridor since Voldemort's rebirth, way before the occlumency lessons. And Voldemort didn't need encouraging to dream about the MOM, it was his biggest wish to get the prophecy.

Now I know where you got your reputation for fanfic. Nowhere is there any evidence of a Perseus Evans in the HP Series. Nothing. It's an anagram for Severus Snape. Everything else is fanfiction.
And Snape is not a vampire, either.
No less evidence than Snape=Regulus, or Evil!Molly. :rotfl:
The name origins, myth-similarties are all fit together with the very substle hints. (like Snape doesn't badmouth Lily, raving in the Shrieking Sack)
And I neither think that he's a vampire. And I hope too, that he's not.

Crookshanks_

October 28th, 2004, 5:00 pm

There must be a VERY good reason for why Dumbledore trusts Snape, and allows him to have so mutch contact with Harry...I can't wait to find out what that is

Tane

October 28th, 2004, 5:19 pm

There must be a VERY good reason for why Dumbledore trusts Snape, and allows him to have so mutch contact with Harry...I can't wait to find out what that isI do worry about Dumbledore and the way he trusts so many people, he does have a little of Lily's characteristics in him on that account. The thing is that Dumbledore has trusted someone in the past and got it all wrong; Mad Eye Moody who turned imposter Crouch Junior, Dumbledore trusted him and was fooled very easily. Snape on the other hand is far better than Crouch Junior in disguising his true character from those he wishes to disguise it from, hence the fooling of his death eaters while working for Dumbledore over a considerable amount of time. So I worry about Dumbledore's trusting of Snape and feel it may all go wrong very easily if what ever Dumbledore's grip on Snape fails somehow or backfires.

Arithmancy

October 28th, 2004, 5:23 pm

If we let our fantasy fly, and put the case that Snape had something to do with the fact, that Harry didn't die of the AK course (a "stopper to death potion") then it's even more understandable.
I always thought that Snape's "to stopper death" means to put a stopper (a plug, a cork) into a bottle with some deadly poison.

GredandFeorge

October 28th, 2004, 5:27 pm

Yes, in a very emotional situation, being a teenager boy, saved by a girl in front of the whole school. In addition in front of the eyes of his fellow Slytherins. But if he meant it, why don't he insult Harry's mother, not even in private? He despises only James, but doesn't have a single bad word for Lily. Why?
And if he really was a racist, then he'd call Hermione a mudblood, not know-it-all.

But he does call Lily a mudblood in the chapter "Snapes Worst Memory". I would say that's a singularly bad word to call anyone.

Crookshanks_

October 28th, 2004, 5:32 pm

GredandFeorge

October 28th, 2004, 5:41 pm

Even though Dumbledore might be abit naive and trusts too many people, in every "bad guy movie" there is, the guy everyone thinks is the one who did it (murder etc), is NEVER the bad guy at the end.. And i dont know why, but i think snape is abit like Draco, tough on the outside and "gentle" on the inside..

Just out of curiousity, and I don't want to stray too far off topic, but if you can prove the one, you can probably argue the other, but where do you see any evidence that Draco is, as you say, "gentle" on the inside?

Crookshanks_

October 28th, 2004, 5:53 pm

I dont have the books here with me (i'm at work), but there are many incidents in the book wih Lucius and Draco, where i just feel that Draco is totally "enslaved" by his father.. Because his father hates all others than most pure-bloods, and scince Draco has been raised in this meaning, he has no other choice that to obey his father.
When i get home from work (about 4 hours), i can search the books i know has examples of this, and post them here.. :)

Tane

October 28th, 2004, 6:15 pm

But he does call Lily a mudblood in the chapter "Snapes Worst Memory". I would say that's a singularly bad word to call anyone.I never thought about it that way, Snape's Worst Memory because he regrets calling Lily a mudblood. I wonder after calling Lily and loosing her that way Young Snape just gave up on himself and believed that he deserved to be a death eater after hurting Lily that way.

I do not think we can trust Snape though; he seems to be all for just himself, if things look out of balance on one side he may switch to ensure that he lives through the war.

whizbang121

October 28th, 2004, 6:16 pm

I'm here, and I've been reading this topic anytime I can make the time to do so... the thing is... I'm still too blocked with this whole bad-Molly thing.... I just can't see that, I only see an over protecting woman who is trying to be as much as a mother to Harry as she can... I'll read some more until I make up my mind about this whole theory, interesting one by the way!!
This topic is not "opinions of Molly." It's about a possible secret agenda by pureblood supremacists that may explain inconsistencies in the behaviour of some characters, particularly Snape.

Serpentina

October 28th, 2004, 6:39 pm

I always thought that Snape's "to stopper death" means to put a stopper (a plug, a cork) into a bottle with some deadly poison.

We can mean it that way, but why would be that so spectacular to call it art? He listed wonderful things: brew glory, bottle fame, then emphasize a simple poison bottling by leaving it to the end? Even muggles are capable of making poisons.
Suspicious, at least.

But he does call Lily a mudblood in the chapter "Snapes Worst Memory". I would say that's a singularly bad word to call anyone.

I was refering the very same chapter. Even if he meant it at that precise moment, it could be because of his emotional state, or could regret it later, as we've never seen him calling anyone mudblood since then.

Nicole

October 28th, 2004, 6:40 pm

Here's an interview quote that may support the theory of Snape having a secret agenda (The Connection 12 October 1999 J.K. Rowling Interview Transcript Transcript Courtesy Sugarquill.net's Transcription Project...):
There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.

Arithmancy

October 28th, 2004, 6:54 pm

We can mean it that way, but why would be that so spectacular to call it art? He listed wonderful things: brew glory, bottle fame, then emphasize a simple poison bottling by leaving it to the end? Even muggles are capable of making poisons.
Suspicious, at least.

Look!!! Subliminal messages!

Brew glory, bottle fame, stopper death.

The process of potion storage outlined: brew, bottle, stopper.
The life cycle: glory, fame, death.
;)

whizbang121

October 28th, 2004, 7:44 pm

The thread is to discuss whether Regulus and Snape are the same person is
here. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=17441&page=1&highlight=regulus)
... and put the case that Snape had something to do with the fact, that Harry didn't die of the AK course (a "stopper to death potion") then it's even more understandable.

I always assumed that it was Mrs Black, who was the more pure-blood maniac, because Kreacher was more fond of her, than Sirius' father. And Sirius himself: he didn't have trouble throwing out all family relics (would have included the portrait of his mother too, if he could), but not only he kept his father ring, but put it on! Several times Kreacher sidled into the room and attempted to smuggle things away under his loincloth, muttering horrible curses every time they caught him at it. When Sirius wrested a large golden ring bearing the Black crest from his grip, Kreacher actually burst into furious tears and left the room sobbing under his breath and calling Sirius names Harry had never heard before.

"It was my father's," said Sirius, throwing the ring into the sack. "Kreacher wasn't quite as devoted to him as to my mother, but I still caught him snogging a pair of my father's old trousers last week."
I almost wish he had put it on. It might have been a significant moment. But it looks like he just threw it in the sack.
He continued the lessons for 2 months, but they couldn't move from stage one. He raised his wand: "One - two - three - Legilimensl"

A hundred Dementors were swooping towards Harry across the lake in the grounds... he screwed up his face in concentration... they were coming closer... he could see the dark holes beneath their hoods... yet he could also see Snape standing in front of him, his eyes fixed on Harry's face, muttering under his breath... and somehow, Snape was growing clearer, and the Dementors were growing fainter...

Harry raised his own wand.

"Protego!"Harry succeeded in blocking Snape out before he did the protego. Harry managed occluemency but not legilimency. The reason he saw Snape's memories is because he used the protego to reflect Snape's own legimens back on him.

I believe that the next "try" was something different. Snape, realizing that Harry had succeeded, on the next try planted the dream sequence so Harry wouldn't know he could do occlumency. Snape didn't want him to learn, and when he did, Snape didn't want Harry to know he could do it. The dream sequence in the next try was a different phenomenon. In the next lesson Snape was called away before they began. It's a setup. When Harry succeeded, it became necessary for Snape to end the lessons and make it look like Harry's fault because he didn't want Harry to know he could do occlumency.

JKR said that Filch stays in the castle all year. We don't know why he's there in the first place, as he seems very sadistic. Dumbledore must have a reason to keep him there. And for Snape, why was Dumbledore's trust misplaced? Apart from stopping the lessons (which Dumbledore was aware of, long before the MOM intident) he saved the day. Solved Harry's cryptic message, checked on Sirius, then alerted the order and told Sirius to stay on his bottom. Dumbledore says so, do you say, that he's lying?[/quote] Yes.

He was left alone a couple of times, for example in COS when Dumbledore was suspended, it would have been a great possibility to Snape to gain headmastership. He would have Lucius' -the most influental man's- vote. But he didn't. Interesting point. Lucius would have backed him, or so Draco says. But that's not his agenda. He's working on something much bigger.

When i get home from work (about 4 hours), i can search the books i know has examples of this, and post them here.. :)The thread to discuss Draco's psychology is here.http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=1381063&highlight=draco#post1381063

Serpentina

October 28th, 2004, 7:58 pm

I almost wish he had put it on. It might have been a significant moment. But it looks like he just threw it in the sack.
My bad, sorry. Then the only fact left, that the pure-blood maniac Kreacher loved Mrs Black more.

Harry succeeded in blocking Snape out before he did the protego. Harry managed occluemency but not legilimency. The reason he saw Snape's memories is because he used the protego to reflect Snape's own legimens back on him.
I don't question the protego spell, just the fact, that he felt really angry at Snape and in fact of it, he was able to fight back the legilimency spell. Maybe he had a little help? ;) Even if it was him alone, then you can't deny, that Snape wasn't angry, in fact, he complimented Harry..

I believe that the next "try" was something different. Snape, realizing that Harry had succeeded, on the next try planted the dream sequence so Harry wouldn't know he could do occlumency. Snape didn't want him to learn, and when he did, Snape didn't want Harry to know he could do it. The dream sequence in the next try was a different phenomenon. In the next lesson Snape was called away before they began. It's a setup. When Harry succeeded, it became necessary for Snape to end the lessons and make it look like Harry's fault because he didn't want Harry to know he could do occlumency.

You can't plant a vision into someone's head via legilimency. You can view the other's memories. Harry was doing something close to legilimency on Voldemort in his dreams. When Voldemort came aware of this, most possibly was doing occlumency showing Harry a fake memory -torturing Sirius- by pulling it in front of his mind. That's how occlumency must work in practice, it would have been more than suspicious of Snape, when Voldemort tried to look in his head and saw only grey mist or a stone wall.
It wasn't the first case, that Harry was able to throw Snape out of his mind, on the very first lesson on their very first try, he managed it. Snape complimented him -on his way of course- then they continued the lesson untill Snape saw the memory of the darkened room (then he ran to Dumbledore to tell it, I think)
About the setup: he couldn't set up Fred and George to throw Montague in a vanishing cabinet, then make him to show up in the toilet in that precise moment, then make Draco to find him in the perfect timing.

Yes. Interesting point. Lucius would have backed him, or so Draco says. But that's not his agenda. He's working on something much bigger.
It would have been an excellent start, getting rid of Dumbledore. Then afterwards (GOF) Dumbledore's reputation was questioned by the Ministry, they could eliminate him completely. But no, Snape tried to conceive Fudge, by showing him the Dark Mark, and tried to defend Dumbledore in every opportunity. I must say, that not just Dumbledore trusts Snape completely, but Snape is loyal to him as well.

Arithmancy

October 28th, 2004, 8:19 pm

It would have been an excellent start, getting rid of Dumbledore. Then afterwards (GOF) Dumbledore's reputation was questioned by the Ministry, they could eliminate him completely. But no, Snape tried to conceive Fudge, by showing him the Dark Mark, and tried to defend Dumbledore in every opportunity. I must say, that not just Dumbledore trusts Snape completely, but Snape is loyal to him as well.

No, not really a good start. Dumbledore has many supporters among Hogwarts stuff and former students. There will be resentment.

Lucius's plot in CoS was to get rid of Dumbledore temporarily, to let Riddle's diary do its work. The bribery and coersement of Hogwarts Trustees would soon be made public. If Snape would have taken the Headmastership in the interim, the public would resent him when the matter clears. This way, Lucius and Snape would be completely at the mercy of Voldemort - nobody else would support their claim for power. If Tom's Diary is unsuccessful, Snape and Malfoy simply fail and have no other plan. Bad.

Same thing with end of Gof to OotP. Snape cannot be seen in public eye as a figure standing against Dumbledore - he would lose support of DD's loyals. But notice, Snape does very little (except showing the Mark) to ever challenge the Ministry. He manages to be liked/accepted/relied on by both sides: Ministry and Order. If Snape ever grabs power, he can claim himself to be a Uniter, not a Divider! :rotfl: (sorry, could not resist the pun) Just what WW will need after the WVII... :evil:

IMHO if Snape uproots Dumbledore it would be much more subtle.

woop

October 28th, 2004, 8:29 pm

i don't think snape is power hungry. he doesn't want to be the headmaster of hogwarts or anything else. i don't even think snape wants to be the dada teacher. i think that's just a red herring. i think snape wants to be rid of voldy and he will help harry in the end.

Serpentina

October 28th, 2004, 9:05 pm

No, not really a good start. Dumbledore has many supporters among Hogwarts stuff and former students. There will be resentment.

Lucius's plot in CoS was to get rid of Dumbledore temporarily, to let Riddle's diary do its work. The bribery and coersement of Hogwarts Trustees would soon be made public. If Snape would have taken the Headmastership in the interim, the public would resent him when the matter clears. This way, Lucius and Snape would be completely at the mercy of Voldemort - nobody else would support their claim for power. If Tom's Diary is unsuccessful, Snape and Malfoy simply fail and have no other plan. Bad.

If Snape gained Headmastership that time, then he could have got rid of Dumbledore's supporters and hire others -just like Umbridge did-. Lucius had enough influence in the Ministry to support him and to silence protestations. He even could expel Harry, then Lucius' plan would work with the diary, the 16 year old self of the Dark Lord would come to life. It would have been easier to gain control of a 16 year old Tom Riddle, especially when they knew his secret, namely that he's a halfblood.

satnitesadnesss

October 28th, 2004, 9:23 pm

In my opinion Snape has neither the intellectual nor emotional control to mastermind such a grand plot. If anyone does, it's Dumbledore, and there are just as many inconsistencies in his actions for suspecting him of having an agenda.

barmy codger, what inconsistencies have you noticed in Dumbledore? WHY do you suspect DUMBLEDORE of having an agenda..a secret agenda?

Arithmancy

October 28th, 2004, 9:50 pm

If Snape gained Headmastership that time, then he could have got rid of Dumbledore's supporters and hire others -just like Umbridge did-. Lucius had enough influence in the Ministry to support him and to silence protestations. And what about Dumbledore himself? DD knows that Snape was a DE, DD probably has dirt on Malfoy, and DD has lots of supporters. Even if Ministry supported Snape, the society at large could turn against him, led by Dumbledore.

He even could expel Harry, then Lucius' plan would work with the diary, the 16 year old self of the Dark Lord would come to life. It would have been easier to gain control of a 16 year old Tom Riddle, especially when they knew his secret, namely that he's a halfblood. Oh, here I guess our interpretations differ. I imagined that if 16 y.o. Tom Riddle came alive he would somehow physically join with Vapormort. So what we would have is powerful wizard Voldemort in nice healthy 16 y.o. body. He could then go over the immortality transformations once again.
Besides, it is not that easy to control 16 y.o. Riddle. :evil:

whizbang121

October 28th, 2004, 10:50 pm

Go Red Sox! Woohoo!

Until this thread, I've never considered the evilness, potentially, of Molly Weasley. There has always been something about her character that I have disliked, but I haven't figured out what it is yet. It would make more sense for someone less obvious that Snape to be the traitor/double agent/inner circle villain.
Nickyg just suggested in Layers that the mastermind behind this secret society with an ancient agenda is really Narcissa Malfoy, rather than Snape. :huh:

Any thoughts?

But he does call Lily a mudblood in the chapter "Snapes Worst Memory". I would say that's a singularly bad word to call anyone.
I'm sure he would if he wasn't a professor and required to maintain a certain decorum. Teachers can't run around using racial slurs on their students, I don't think. McGonagall had a stroke when Crouchjr/Moody changed Draco into a ferret.

Serpentina

October 28th, 2004, 11:07 pm

Oh, here I guess our interpretations differ. I imagined that if 16 y.o. Tom Riddle came alive he would somehow physically join with Vapormort. So what we would have is powerful wizard Voldemort in nice healthy 16 y.o. body. He could then go over the immortality transformations once again.
Besides, it is not that easy to control 16 y.o. Riddle. :evil:

If Lucius weren't able to control Tom Riddle, then why would he try to restore him? We agree on more or less, that he's acting on his own agenda. He was pretty well in the Ministry without Voldemort, he had power. He'd bring him back only if he hoped more power by doing it. Interesting: he didn't mention his private adventure to Voldemort, and he's neither aware of it.

grrliz

October 29th, 2004, 12:39 am

Nickyg just suggested in Layers that the mastermind behind this secret society with an ancient agenda is really Narcissa Malfoy, rather than Snape. :huh:.Hmm, I did read a theory a while ago that secretly Narcissa owns 12 Grimmauld Place, although I coudn't find any logical reason as to why this would be so (i.e. I managed to refute all of my own arguments why it might work). But I think she's pretty fishy (there's a thread on her somewhere I think), and perhaps much more interesting than Lucius, our slippery friend who's pretty out in the open with his evilness (well, to members of the Order, anyway).

silvery orb

October 29th, 2004, 3:18 am

What if Sirius (or Regulus) left behind a son? A half blood prince! And what if the half blood prince is ....... Dean Thomas!
Really interesting theories here! IMHO, Dean's parentage involves none of the main characters because JK has said she invented a back story for him but ended up abandoning it for the more central story of Neville.

I'm more skeptical these days, after the Mark Evans letdown :p

chyllis

October 29th, 2004, 3:55 am

This has been a fascinating journey. I began reading this post several days ago but decided I needed time to digest some of your thoughts and ideas - most intriguing ! It would be very simplistic of me to simply agree that I am in agreement that Snape has his own agenda; much of the rest seems to be a bit of a stretch. Could Voldemorte have told Harry that his mother needn't have died just to add a bit of salt to a wound? Could Snape have hated James because he was jealous (bloodlines, Lily, popularity. . .), Picture the scenario of hanging upside down with your dirty undies for all to see and tell me you wouldn't loathe the person who did that to you. Snape had plenty of baggage as it was, based on what we do know about his childhood. I have seen my mother verbally berated and known the pain of seeing someone I loved and relied on being totally humiliated. I don't like that man very much either. I learned that cruel people exist and the terror drove me inward. I was led to believe that I was pretty worthless myself - even though my mother never let me wear dirty undies :blush: Revenge could have been a sweet reason to "belong" to a powerful group. "See, I can be accepted and someone does find me worthwhile." But I am also a good person and would never have stayed with that particular group. The seething and torment may have been why Snape was sorted into Slytherin in the first place. Another idea here: Bellatrix, Narcissa, and Andromeda were sisters. Narcissa is Malfoy's mother; Andromeda is Tonk's mother. Tonks and Malfoy are both cousins once removed of Sirius. Here is still another Black family dividing of the ways. I would love to see someone factor this into the equation.

barmy codger

October 29th, 2004, 4:15 am

barmy codger, what inconsistencies have you noticed in Dumbledore? WHY do you suspect DUMBLEDORE of having an agenda..a secret agenda?
This is a thread about Snape's agenda and my answer is off-topic, so I beg indulgence and I'll try to be brief.

Dumbledore's obvious agenda is to stop Voldemort by using Harry. At the other end of the matter is the thread 'Is Dumbledore Evil' where not much has been accomplished, but it's worth a look.

My suspicions of Dumbledore arose after reading Victor Hugo's 'Notre Dame of Paris'. Dumbledore is head of Hogwarts, Archdeacon Frollo is the head of Notre Dame cathedral. Frollo's relation to La Esmeralda is very much like Dumbledore's to Harry, and it doesn't end well. Frollo, with the help of Quasimodo, tries to kidnap Esmeralda because he loves her. He follows her and watches her. He stabs the man she loves and frames her for the murder (except the man didn't die). For this she is imprisoned, tried and tortured, and sentenced to hang. Frollo can set her free if she will love him, which she refuses to do. Then we have Dumbledore who with Hagrid's aid has got hold of Harry and imprisoned him at No. 4 Privet Drive and has subjected Harry throughout his life to abuse and hardship, and various trials. He tells Harry he loves him. The two stories are similar in other ways that have to do with alchemy, but that's another matter.

The main inconsistency in my mind is the fact that Dumbledore misinterprets the Prophecy and says Harry must kill or be killed. As you know, the Prophecy says the One has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord and neither can live while the other survives. Harry can't do killing. Think of his Cruciatus done to Bellatrix. Think of Black at Harry's mercy in the Shrieking Shack. Dumbledore told Voldemort, 'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me' but he treats the Death Eaters humanely and then tells Harry he must take Voldemort's life.

Apart from that, here are some questions:

How does Dumbledore know anything at all about what happened at Godric's Hollow? How did he know a killing curse was used on Harry?

How did Voldemort know the Philosopher's Stone was in Gringotts and which vault it was in? Who had the key to the vault? And how did the centaurs know about the Stone at Hogwarts?

Why did neither Snape nor Dumbledore, both skilled in legilimency, detect Voldemort in Quirrell? Or did they?

Did Dumbledore use legillimency on Harry in book 2 -'I must ask you, Harry, whether there is anything you'd like to tell me," --and is this not a invasion of privacy?

"I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined." Is this not an invasion of privacy?

Why did Dumbledore lend Snape his (supposedly) pensieve, knowing Harry's curiosity about it?

Do you believe Dumbledore's account of Kreacher's betrayal? He's the only source of the information.

Why did Sirius have to die? But along with that, why did it happen in front of Dumbledore, who I think was powerful enough to prevent it? This isn't a clear issue but it is worth considering.

And we have Hermione asking, "If you can't trust Dumbledore, who can you trust?" (or something like that) --which may be a good question.

That's enough. You can attack me in Layers, maybe, if you want.

Chievrefueil

October 29th, 2004, 4:25 am

Even though it's off-topic, that's a very interesting interpretation of what Dumbledore has done. Dumbledore hasn't asked for Harry's love/devotion directly, though, has he (as in your example from "Notre Dame of Paris")?

barmy codger

October 29th, 2004, 4:35 am

It's 'do what I want or die'. In 'Notre Dame' it's 'love me or die'. In 'Harry Potter' it's 'kill Voldemort for me or die'.

GryffindorGr

October 29th, 2004, 1:13 pm

by barmy codger
Why did Sirius have to die? But along with that, why did it happen in front of Dumbledore, who I think was powerful enough to prevent it? This isn't a clear issue but it is worth considering.

Even the veil is too powerful for DD. You can’t bring back the dead no matter how powerful magic is. One of the perks. But prevention, I know what you mean….still it wouldn’t do any good because Sirius is head strong and maybe this was meant to be. Perhaps, if we want to speculate outrageously, DD knew a little of the future or what could be the future, so Sirius was in most probability, not suppose to have survived past PoA or Harry’s 3rd year. But because of the boy who lived, these events took place anyway. The temporary life of Sirius was a way of giving Harry of the truth behind people’s manipulation, the horrors of the world by what a mere person can do to another human being. And also to give Harry hope in people again.

I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined." Is this not an invasion of privacy?
It isn’t an invasion of privacy when DD treats Harry as if he were his own kid. Sometimes you take a peek into what your kids do and if they’re okay, and it’s a good thing too because without those interferences, who knows what terrible abuse the Dursleys could do to Harry? Remember when DD said in PS/SS to McGonagall when he held Harry in his arms? He would guard him as if it were his own? Or something to that effect.

The main inconsistency in my mind is the fact that Dumbledore misinterprets the Prophecy and says Harry must kill or be killed. As you know, the Prophecy says the One has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord and neither can live while the other survives. Harry can't do killing. Think of his Cruciatus done to Bellatrix. Think of Black at Harry's mercy in the Shrieking Shack. Dumbledore told Voldemort, 'Merely taking your life would not satisfy me' but he treats the Death Eaters humanely and then tells Harry he must take Voldemort's life.
What I noticed in both the book and the film is that Harry’s anger was more pronounced when he thought it was Black, he was very emotional. But I think this was due to a huge building up. Since Black was supposedly the best friend and godfather at the same time it made it all the worse. I am more apt to see that the effect was pronounced in Ron’s part because he had harbored the true criminal all those long 12 years. All these things made Harry so crazy but you’re right, he was on the verge. It was his emotion to Pettigrew that although very surprised and angry, he wouldn’t kill him or allow others to do him in. This shows a huge foreshadowing in Harry’s unwillingness to do murder. Of course we know it’s because it’s just not worth it. He needed to show the world who was the true culprit of this and is what his father would have done. The courage to right wrongs despite high emotions.
Why did Dumbledore lend Snape his (supposedly) pensieve, knowing Harry's curiosity about it?

Harry was only given the opportunity to go and peek because of Draco’s interference or rather if we want to credit it to the twins for putting Montague away. If the twins were somehow privy to making sure Montague showed up at a precise time, like say a few days later, right at the time Harry was due for his meeting with Snape, would not Harry take the plunge?
Oh dear…we need to get on course. Snape’s agenda? Why not it be an agenda that is for good instead of evil? (I'm being very optimistic about the being good part, aren't I?) Did anyone saw the JKRowling:Harry Potter and me (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0352453/) on A&E?
JKR gives us a peek of the at the notebook containing that information.and it’s supposedly an epilogue summarizing what happened to the survivors after they leave school. So in this perspective, it gets worse in HBP. Whatever agenda Snape is on, I really hope he’s for the good guys.

Serpentina

October 29th, 2004, 1:30 pm

Snape’s agenda? Why not it be an agenda that is for good instead of evil? (I'm being very optimistic about the being good part, aren't I?) Did anyone saw the JKRowling:Harry Potter and me (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0352453/) on A&E?
JKR gives us a peek of the at the notebook containing that information.and it’s supposedly an epilogue summarizing what happened to the survivors after they leave school. So in this perspective, it gets worse in HBP. Whatever agenda Snape is on, I really hope he’s for the good guys.

I agree with you GryffindorGr, I trust Snape as Dumbledore does, although I'm not an easy-trusty person otherwise. As Quirrel said, he's just the type everybody can assume the worst about him. And this makes him a wonderful red-herring.

Nicole

October 29th, 2004, 2:17 pm

Nickyg just suggested in Layers that the mastermind behind this secret society with an ancient agenda is really Narcissa Malfoy, rather than Snape. :huh:

Any thoughts?
Ha, ha, ha, Whiz! I was partly joking! I was even worried after posting--someone may have misinterpreted "alone time" between Snape and Narcissa....

Since this is about Snape's secret agenda (rather than looking for subversive groups with their own agenda in HP), I will only suggest that Narcissa is a participant. A willing participant, at that. I know Lucius is a little older than Snape (and the Marauders), perhaps Narcissa is younger than Lucius and therefore a classmate of Snape (slightly closer in age to him than to her hubby).

Okay, this is going to be like fan-fic because I have no proof (no canon). It is possible that Narcissa's marriage was arranged and that she does not share a passionate love with Lucius (and never did). She gave him an heir, but no spare and no daughters. She is definitely a pure-blood, being from the Black family. If there is a plot to return a pure-blood to the position of "king", surely she could be involved. After all, her son may be someone in line for that succession, and I think we can safely assume that she does love Draco (she sends a lot of care packages with sweets and such; most mothers do love their children, even if they don't love the fathers of them).

On to the Snape connection. We do know that Snape and Lucius have stayed in touch, but we do not know where (or even if) they meet (they could be using one of those alternate communication methods mentioned by Dumbledore, though he meant for the Order). But suppose they do physically get together--at Malfoy's place (manor, castle). This would easily provide Snape with the opportunity to converse with Narcissa.

If Snape's agenda is to return a pure-blood to a throne (or some other position of power), Narcissa could be a co-conspirator, especially if she believes (has been led to believe by Snape, perhaps? He does seem to favor Slytherins and Draco in particular.) her son may be the one to "inherit" such a position. (History has a lot of powerful women behind the throne...) This agenda does not even interfere with her husband's DE activities--they are on the same page, so to speak, even if their methods/motivations are somewhat different.

JKR has said we will see more of Narcissa (hopefully in Book 6, but I don't think that was specified). So far she has really been just a background character. The one time we saw her she didn't even have any lines, just a snooty appearance. It will be interesting to learn more about her. :evil:

whizbang121

October 29th, 2004, 3:22 pm

If the yell was about Sirius, then why would Snape cry? We know they haven't liked each other since year one. If if was about Sirius and Snape was the younger brother, he may have been upset by the arguing. There's no clue in that scene what the yelling is about.
...but the lonely teen in a dark room isn't normal at all if we add Rowling's description too: "Snape-the-teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him, like a plant kept in the dark." Or a kid locked up in an old mansion with lots of spells to hide it and make it unplottable? It Sirius was a disappointment to his family, they would have put more restrictions on son #2 to prevent him going the way of his "wayward" older brother.[

Look!!! Subliminal messages!

Brew glory, bottle fame, stopper death.

The process of potion storage outlined: brew, bottle, stopper.
The life cycle: glory, fame, death.
;)

:wow: That is so cool! You could repost that in the Alchemy thread. :agree:

No, not really a good start. Dumbledore has many supporters among Hogwarts stuff and former students. There will be resentment.

Lucius's plot in CoS was to get rid of Dumbledore temporarily, to let Riddle's diary do its work. :agree: The plan looks to me like an attempt to bring back the young Tom Riddle who still adheres to the philosophy of purging the school and the magical world of less than pureblood witches and wizards. But even at 16, Tom already had an agenda of his own. If there is a pureblood supremacist agenda, Voldemort double crossed them. Interesting that Snape was encouraged to take the helm. Why wouldn't Malfoy take over himself? Who exactly is Snape?
The bribery and coersement of Hogwarts Trustees would soon be made public. If Snape would have taken the Headmastership in the interim, the public would resent him when the matter clears. This way, Lucius and Snape would be completely at the mercy of Voldemort - nobody else would support their claim for power. If Tom's Diary is unsuccessful, Snape and Malfoy simply fail and have no other plan. Bad.

Same thing with end of Gof to OotP. Snape cannot be seen in public eye as a figure standing against Dumbledore - he would lose support of DD's loyals. But notice, Snape does very little (except showing the Mark) to ever challenge the Ministry. He manages to be liked/accepted/relied on by both sides: Ministry and Order. If Snape ever grabs power, he can claim himself to be a Uniter, not a Divider! :rotfl: (sorry, could not resist the pun) Just what WW will need after the WVII... :evil:

IMHO if Snape uproots Dumbledore it would be much more subtle. Well explained. :tu:

If there is a plot to return a royal house to power, then the ministry and the school both have to be taken over, and it appears that both were infiltrated.
But with Fudge alerted to the return of Voldemort and LMalfoy in prison, who will fill the gap?

NickyG suggested Narcissa would be revealed as the brains behind the supremacist agenda. No proof, but I like this idea. If Sirius and Regulus really are dead without heirs, then Draco appears to be the next pureblood son and heir of the house of Black.

But what possible complications are there? Is there an unrecognised half blood son of either Sirius or Regulus in Dean Thomas? Or did Sirius ever take steps to legally make Harry his heir, beneficiary and successor? Would the fact that Sirius' name hasn't been cleared (as yet) interfere with Harry's inheriting anything from his Godfather?

Is there an artifact, a something in Grimmauld Place that perhaps Kreacher has rescued and saved, that is the focus of all this? (Maybe it's still in Mr. Black's trousers.) We've seen a house full of Dark Arts stuff, a shop full of Dark Arts merchandise, (including the hand of glory), and we know Malfoy has a secret chamber under the floor full of Dark Arts relics. Is there an ancient artifact handed down since forever in the house of Black that is the source of their claim or even their power. Is it related to the Arch and the Veil?

Okay, not enough coffee. Must be hallucinating. The halloween candy is trying to convince me that York Peppermint Patties are so a nourishing breakfast.

The Red Sox won! :clap:
Now about that other Bostonian in a tight race.

Expecto Patronum!

If Snape gained Headmastership that time, then he could have got rid of Dumbledore's supporters and hire others -just like Umbridge did-. He even could expel Harry, then Lucius' plan would work with the diary, the 16 year old self of the Dark Lord would come to life. It would have been easier to gain control of a 16 year old Tom Riddle, especially when they knew his secret, namely that he's a halfblood.The problem is, they need Harry to get rid of Voldemort for them. And look how Umbridge ended up, though I'm sure that if she's not in on the plot, she's a racist nevertheless. Referring to Umbridge, Sirius told Harry that not all evil people are Death Eaters. :huh:
I'm not sure Lucius had enough influence to take over the ministry at that time. He had to threaten the school governors to dismiss Dumbledore, so his influence wasn't that great, yet.
And controlling Voldemort, if they dismiss Dumbledore and expel Harry, who's going to control Voldemort? :huh: Doesn't look very hopeful. Though pandering to his ego could take them some distance, he can detect lies.

Mrs Flamel

October 29th, 2004, 3:35 pm

Hi all,
I am very happy to find that there are others who are questioning the motives behind Snape et al. I must admit that I have no idea what some of the more imaginative theories in here are based on, but I agree that there seems to be some sort of sub-plot in the series.

I've been going round and round on the Does Voldemort know Snape is a spy? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16339) thread. I tried to organize what we know of Snape into one post (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1444914&postcount=316), and I find that he just doesn't add up. I've been inclined to think that he's a double agent, because with all the evidence, it seems that DD and LV must know he's going between them. I also suspect that he's placed himself in this precarious situation to allow him to side with whoever comes out on top.

But the discussions of Snape always involve Lucius, questioning their relationship. One thing I like about JKR is that her villains are not simplistically evil a la Disney, but they have personal stories and motivations. I've been questioning Malfoy's in theLucius Malfoy (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20213&page=7&pp=30) thread. He cannot be happy in his position behind Voldemort. I think he is disillusioned with him. Voldemort is not out to gain political power (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20213&page=7&pp=30) or to purify wizard blood--he's used these platforms to manipulate people like lucius Malfoy into helping him gain personal power, and Lucius cannot be happy about it. Add to that that he has likely known that Voldemort is a half-blood for a while, and Lucius must be disappointed in what Voldemort has (or hasn't) done.

To me, Lucius' and Snape's actions don't seem to make sense on the surface when I try to understand where they're coming from and what they want. It makes a lot of sense that Lucius, at least, is interested in some kind of pureblood restoration that he has been disappointed to not find in LV's mission. I certainly feel that he would like to see LV brought down, so that he could take over and pursue the agenda that was interested in from the beginning. Since Lucius doesn't seem like a passive person, I'm curious if he has (had) a plan to undermine LV from the inside.

I am very suspicious that Lucius and Snape are manipulating situations behind the scenes here for "their" own purposes, which are probably Lucius' purposes (which may be related to something much larger.) I don't think this takes away from the centrality of the Harry/Voldemort struggle. If anything, it adds to the complexity of it. It creates a fourth side. In a sense, the good guys (at least until now) have been split into two opposing camps: Ministry and the Order. But whereas DD has the power to unite by bringing out the best in everyone, LV brings out the worst. It would be a classic case of all the bad guys being out for themselves, and in the end undermining their own efforts. We could see two groups of bad guys emerge, those supporting LV and his personal quest for power, and those supporting some pureblood agenda. In the end, with all the bad guys divided, Harry and DD may find this to their advantage.

Well, I just threw out lots of my thoughts, and now my fingers hurt! But Whizbang, I wanted to offer you this link: http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/poseur3.html. It's a discussion of the Priory of Sion, that has some interesting things to say about the Merovingians. There's one really strange tidbit toward the bottom that links Sirius (the star) into the mystery: some people supposedly believe that the Merovingians descended from being from Sirius. :huh: Now, it's weird, but there you go. I also like this site: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Priory%20of%20Sion, since it has contextual links to many other subjects, like the Merovingians. I highly recommend Elf's and Loup Garou's theories on the HBP (http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/poseur3.html). They bring in a lot of Arthurian and grail imagery into their argument for Lupin as HBP. Obviously, the Merovingians are related to modern grail mythology, though I hadn't until now seen any connection. Heck, soon we could call the series : The Harry Potter Code. :elaugh:

Alright, I'm done with my magnum opus post. But Whizbang, could you link to the alchemy thread you mentioned?

whizbang121

October 29th, 2004, 4:18 pm

barmy codger, what inconsistencies have you noticed in Dumbledore? WHY do you suspect DUMBLEDORE of having an agenda..a secret agenda?
He's right. They do exist. The most obvious is the smile when Harry tells him that Voldemort took his blood. But the tell all speech in ch 37 of OotP is packed with inconsistencies.

And what about Dumbledore himself? DD knows that Snape was a DE, DD probably has dirt on Malfoy, and DD has lots of supporters. Even if Ministry supported Snape, the society at large could turn against him, led by Dumbledore.
We have been shown that "society at large" is easy to manipulate. (Hope she's not talking about us.)

The Daily Propaganda, I mean, Prophet, seems to easily control public opinion. So no idea who the public will support at any given moment. Gotta get more Quibbler subscribers. :agree:

Could Snape have hated James because he was jealous (bloodlines, Lily, popularity. . .), Interesting point. We know nothing of the Potter bloodlines. Were they pureblood mugglelovers like the Weasleys? Or were they mixed ancestry? Either way, we know they accepted Sirius when he rejected his family. Wish we knew more about the uncle who left Sirius his money.
Another idea here: Bellatrix, Narcissa, and Andromeda were sisters. Narcissa is Malfoy's mother; Andromeda is Tonk's mother. Tonks and Malfoy are both cousins once removed of Sirius. Here is still another Black family dividing of the ways. I would love to see someone factor this into the equation.Right. It looks like Tonks and Draco are Sirius' first cousins, once removed. I think Narcissa is the youngest sister, but she has the male child. So unless Tonks has an older brother, (who would also be a half blood), or the Lestranges are hiding a male offspring somewhere, Draco is apparently the next heir of the house of Black.

Machiavelli

October 29th, 2004, 4:29 pm

Right. It looks like Tonks and Draco are Sirius' first cousins, once removed. I think Narcissa is the youngest sister, but she has the male child. So unless Tonks has an older brother, (who would also be a half blood), or the Lestranges are hiding a male offspring somewhere, Draco is apparently the next heir of the house of Black.Unless of course pure blood wizards take their cue from Old French practice and one cannot inherit through the female line - Salic law is behind the hundred year war! After all, Sirius is called the 'last' of the house of Black.

tjrih

October 29th, 2004, 4:33 pm

If if was about Sirius and Snape was the younger brother, he may have been upset by the arguing. There's no clue in that scene what the yelling is about.

It is quite common in siblings (even those who dispise each other) that if a parent yells at the other, the one not in trouble sometimes cries or is upset, possibly because the parent is so upset.

But even at 16, Tom already had an agenda of his own. If there is a pureblood supremacist agenda, Voldemort double crossed them. Interesting that Snape was encouraged to take the helm. Why wouldn't Malfoy take over himself? Who exactly is Snape?
I wonder if Malfoy tried to reincarnate Riddle because he wanted to attempt to modify what Voldemort became? It is possible that Malfoy had hoped to mold Riddle (who was no doubtedly an exceptional wizard even at 16) away from the megalomaniac he became.
I also do not think that Malfoy would ever take control (personally) over Hogwarts or the MoM. He would not want do have the work to do (he probably has the softest hands in the wizarding world) or be accountable for anything. He is probably not the mastermind, but he has the gold, or his wife does.

Now about that other Bostonian in a tight race.
Grrrrrrrr! I am very concerned about the desperation that Kerry's camp is resorting to and the mud that is being slung from both sides.

Have we listed the potions & ingredients that Snape has introduced and why these particular ones were given to us by JKR? I should review the other Snape threads huh? I do not think that Snape could not take over Hogwarts should something happen to Dumbledore at this point or previously because of the title the Prof. McGonagall holds as Deputy Headmistress. It would have looked awfully suspicious that unpopular Snape catapulted over her to take the chair.

Arithmancy

October 29th, 2004, 4:52 pm

If Lucius weren't able to control Tom Riddle, then why would he try to restore him? We agree on more or less, that he's acting on his own agenda. He was pretty well in the Ministry without Voldemort, he had power. He'd bring him back only if he hoped more power by doing it. Interesting: he didn't mention his private adventure to Voldemort, and he's neither aware of it.

Good point... I don't know why... Lucius does seem pretty comfortable in a world without Voldemort. But then his behavior does not make sense in any scenario... Maybe he did not know that Diary can restore Riddle to body, maybe he thought it can only posess people and make them kill Muggleborns?

whizbang121

October 29th, 2004, 5:14 pm

Ha, ha, ha, Whiz! I was partly joking! I was even worried after posting--someone may have misinterpreted "alone time" between Snape and Narcissa.... http://websmileys.com/sm/crazy/349.gif

Since this is about Snape's secret agenda (rather than looking for subversive groups with their own agenda in HP),Maybe I'll change the title of the thread. Hmmm.... I will only suggest that Narcissa is a participant. A willing participant, at that. I know Lucius is a little older than Snape (and the Marauders), perhaps Narcissa is younger than Lucius and therefore a classmate of Snape (slightly closer in age to him than to her hubby).

Okay, this is going to be like fan-fic because I have no proof (no canon). It is possible that Narcissa's marriage was arranged and that she does not share a passionate love with Lucius (and never did). Very possible. Sirius remarks about purebloods wanting their children to marry other purebloods didn't offer a large group to choose from. Thus, love potions. :eyebrows: Why did Molly use one in her youth? To marry into the Black family? :huh:
She gave him an heir, but no spare and no daughters. True, but Lucius wasn't on the Tapestry. Like Molly, he seems to have married into the family. Is is more important that Narcissa produced an heir to the house of Black than Malfoy? She is definitely a pure-blood, being from the Black family. If there is a plot to return a pure-blood to the position of "king", surely she could be involved. After all, her son may be someone in line for that succession, and I think we can safely assume that she does love Draco (she sends a lot of care packages with sweets and such; most mothers do love their children, even if they don't love the fathers of them). She also didn't want him out of the country. Malfoy wanted Draco to go to Durmstrang, (is this where he hails from?) But Narcissa insisted it was too far away. Hmmmmm......... :huh:

If Snape's agenda is to return a pure-blood to a throne (or some other position of power), Narcissa could be a co-conspirator, especially if she believes (has been led to believe by Snape, perhaps? He does seem to favor Slytherins and Draco in particular.) her son may be the one to "inherit" such a position. (History has a lot of powerful women behind the throne...) This agenda does not even interfere with her husband's DE activities--they are on the same page, so to speak, even if their methods/motivations are somewhat different.

JKR has said we will see more of Narcissa (hopefully in Book 6, but I don't think that was specified). So far she has really been just a background character. The one time we saw her she didn't even have any lines, just a snooty appearance. It will be interesting to learn more about her. :evil:All true.

egonza44

October 29th, 2004, 5:37 pm

But the discussions of Snape always involve Lucius, questioning their relationship. One thing I like about JKR is that her villains are not simplistically evil a la Disney, but they have personal stories and motivations. I've been questioning Malfoy's in theLucius Malfoy (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20213&page=7&pp=30) thread. He cannot be happy in his position behind Voldemort. I think he is disillusioned with him. Voldemort is not out to gain political power (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20213&page=7&pp=30) or to purify wizard blood--he's used these platforms to manipulate people like lucius Malfoy into helping him gain personal power, and Lucius cannot be happy about it. Add to that that he has likely known that Voldemort is a half-blood for a while, and Lucius must be disappointed in what Voldemort has (or hasn't) done.

To me, Lucius' and Snape's actions don't seem to make sense on the surface when I try to understand where they're coming from and what they want. It makes a lot of sense that Lucius, at least, is interested in some kind of pureblood restoration that he has been disappointed to not find in LV's mission. I certainly feel that he would like to see LV brought down, so that he could take over and pursue the agenda that was interested in from the beginning. Since Lucius doesn't seem like a passive person, I'm curious if he has (had) a plan to undermine LV from the inside.
Hi Mrs Flamel, happy to see you again. You know I agree with the idea of double-agent, this could explain loads of things.
But I agree too with the main idea of the thread: Lucius and Snape have their own agenda to restore the pureblood domain. The leader could be Lucius and he's using Snape to reach his target. But I have some debts:
- I'm not too sure, but Snape has never used a bad word to talk about mudbloods. Well, we can think about his memory and how he talked to Lily, but I think that was only because he was been humiliated and the only person that came to help him was a girl (and I have to confess that I guess that Severus was in love with her) :blush:
- You really think that Snape is interested in this mission or he's using Lucius to get something more? :evil:

We can mean it that way, but why would be that so spectacular to call it art? He listed wonderful things: brew glory, bottle fame, then emphasize a simple poison bottling by leaving it to the end? Even muggles are capable of making poisons.
Suspicious, at least.
I guess that Snape said that just like all the teachers of the world. Everybody thinks that his/her subject is the best and more important one. I have loads of techers like that. Right now you don't know it but "Base of Applied Ecology" is going to save the world. :rotfl:

About Snape and Harry classes, perhaps Snape is using the pensieve not only to protect his memories from Harry, but also from Voldemort. Harry an him have a strange relation via scar, what Harry can see is what Voldemort is seeing. So Snape doesn't want that LV see his memories. But what kind of memories? Of course, I think that these (Lily and James an so on) are not his worst memories.

Arithmancy

October 29th, 2004, 5:50 pm

Ha, ha, ha, Whiz! I was partly joking! I was even worried after posting--someone may have misinterpreted "alone time" between Snape and Narcissa.... Well,... Snape seems to be very fond of Draco... protective, mentorial, can we say... practically paternal? :rotfl:

True, but Lucius wasn't on the Tapestry. Like Molly, he seems to have married into the family. Is is more important that Narcissa produced an heir to the house of Black than Malfoy? Aha! :agree: Note that Draco is named after constelation, obviously in Black fashion, not after some Roman noble and not just given a contemporary name.
She also didn't want him out of the country. Malfoy wanted Draco to go to Durmstrang, (is this where he hails from?) But Narcissa insisted it was too far away. Hmmmmm......... This, and also the name business, made some people suggest that Narcissa is really a brain of Malfoy family, while Lucius is a respectable front. I wouldn't be surprised if she were involved in some political intrigue, but is smart enough to be behing the scene.

whizbang121

October 29th, 2004, 6:15 pm

Heck, soon we could call the series: The Harry Potter Code. :elaugh: :elaugh:

Alright, I'm done with my magnum opus post. But Whizbang, could you link to the alchemy thread you mentioned?

I really want to come back to this and go over it thoroughly, but I couldn't miss this opportunity. This quote is from the DaVinci Code
pg 164
"These books can't possibly compete with centures of established history, especially when that history is endorsed by the ultimate best seller all time. "
Faukman's eyes went wide. "Don't tell me Harry Potter is actually about the Holy Grail."
"I was refering to the Bible."
Faukman cringed. "I knew that."

:lol:

But is Dan Brown subtly letting us know that he's noticed the elements of these ancient conspiracies in HP?

Importance of Alchemy (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=14386)

Unless of course pure blood wizards take their cue from Old French practice and one cannot inherit through the female line - Salic law is behind the hundred year war! After all, Sirius is called the 'last' of the house of Black.Isn't that the War of the Roses? :eyebrows:

In that case, it's either an unknown offspring of Sirius or Regulus, or Harry, if he was properly and officially adopted by Sirius. We know Harry is a half blood, but we've been told straight out that he's not the HBP. Sooooo............

phoenix_angel

October 29th, 2004, 6:15 pm

There are conspericies in HP? Man is that strange.

Machiavelli

October 29th, 2004, 6:24 pm

Isn't that the War of the Roses? :eyebrows: Erm... no. The hundred years war was fought between France and England over England's claim to the French throne. Since that claim came through the female line the French claimed that it was not valid based on Salic law. The war of the roses was the war between the houses of Lancaster and York that was ended on Bosworth field when Henry VII bested Richard III and started the Tudor line (Henry VIII - Elizabeth I). Not sure if you were kidding with that question - but thought I'd clarify anyway! Darn academic instincts...

whizbang121

October 29th, 2004, 6:25 pm

A couple of tidbits I've picked up driving around with HP tapes playing.

In the light of this:
Gilderoy Lockhart
"...I clearly state in chapter twelve that my ideal birthday girft would be harmony between all magic and non-magic people ....."
" ...But Miss Hermione Granger knew my secret ambition is to rid the world of evil and market my own range of hair-care potions.
this:
"Let me introduce my assistant, Professor Snape," said Lockhart, flashing a wide smile. "He tells me he knows a tiny little bit about dueling himself and has sportingly agreed to help me with a short demonstration before we begin. Now, I don't want any of you youngsters to worry - you'll still have your Potions master when I'm through with him, never fear!"

"Wouldn't it be good if they finished each other off?" Ron muttered in Harry's ear.

Interesting. And Gilderoy has been making good progress at St Mungo's.

Paintball

October 29th, 2004, 6:54 pm

SyirenSlytherin

October 29th, 2004, 7:03 pm

Interesting. And Gilderoy has been making good progress at St Mungo's.

but hasn't JKR said he won't be comming back in the series...

Nicole

October 29th, 2004, 7:08 pm

Snape is a very interesting character. I have read many spy novels over the years, and the only explanation I can come up with is that he is a double agent. If he is a double agent who is loyal to Dumbledore, then Dumbledore would have probably known that LV was present at Hogwarts in SS/PS. What would have been Snape's explanation for doing the counter-curse that saved Harry during the Quitttich match. The double agent theory fits in fairly well with every other act except that one. I'm still trying to see if there is an explanation that JKR can use for this action. There was no explanation by LV on how he got past Snape's logic blockaid, so the theory that Snape was allowed by DD to give this information to LV to maintain his trust could hold up.

If anyone can come up with an explanation that he could give to LV on why he did this counter-curse please post a reply.

Thanks
I thought Snape protected Harry because of the "debt" he owed to James for saving him in the Whomping Willow incident (Sirius told Snape how to enter the Willow, Remus was going into werewolf mode, James pulled Snape back just before he got to the Shrieking Shack). If that wasn't a good enough reason for Voldemort, there is always the excuse of being a responsible teacher so he will not lose his position at Hogwarts (and thus also lose his ability to spy on Dumbledore).

but hasn't JKR said he won't be comming back in the series...
Basically she did say that his role seems to be done. Don't know if there will be another reason to go to St. Mungo's, but it is possible that Lockhart could have another "cameo" appearance there.

Paintball

October 29th, 2004, 7:16 pm

I thought Snape protected Harry because of the "debt" he owed to James for saving him in the Whomping Willow incident (Sirius told Snape how to enter the Willow, Remus was going into werewolf mode, James pulled Snape back just before he got to the Shrieking Shack). If that wasn't a good enough reason for Voldemort, there is always the excuse of being a responsible teacher so he will not lose his position at Hogwarts (and thus also lose his ability to spy on Dumbledore).

Basically she did say that his role seems to be done. Don't know if there will be another reason to go to St. Mungo's, but it is possible that Lockhart could have another "cameo" appearance there.

If you will notice, I edited my prior post to show that I believe SS/PS was a trap set by DD to try and capture LV until Harry's soul was ready to do battle. The only thing DD didn't expect was for the trio to interfere with this trap.

whizbang121

October 29th, 2004, 7:41 pm

Erm... no. The hundred years war was fought between France and England over England's claim to the French throne. Since that claim came through the female line the French claimed that it was not valid based on Salic law. The war of the roses was the war between the houses of Lancaster and York that was ended on Bosworth field when Henry VII bested Richard III and started the Tudor line (Henry VIII - Elizabeth I). Not sure if you were kidding with that question - but thought I'd clarify anyway! Darn academic instincts...Not kidding. Really didn't know.. Thanks. :)

Snape is a very interesting character. I have read many spy novels over the years, and the only explanation I can come up with is that he is a double agent. If he is a double agent who is loyal to Dumbledore, then Dumbledore would have probably known that LV was present at Hogwarts in SS/PS. What would have been Snape's explanation for doing the counter-curse that saved Harry during the Quitttich match. The double agent theory fits in fairly well with every other act except that one. I'm still trying to see if there is an explanation that JKR can use for this action. There was no explanation by LV on how he got past Snape's logic blockaid, so the theory that Snape was allowed by DD to give this information to LV to spring a trap to capture LV could hold up.

If anyone can come up with an explanation that he could give to LV on why he did this counter-curse please post a reply.

Thanks
Just my theory...
the supremacists need Harry to get rid of that double crosser Voldemort for them. Harry is the weapon.

Blacks Beauty

October 29th, 2004, 7:46 pm

Paintball

October 29th, 2004, 7:50 pm

I have posted my theory of why I think SS/PS was a trap and added the link to my signature. I have decided that maybe Quirrel acted on his own to try and kill Harry and that is why LV was angry with Quirrel. He wouldn't have wanted Quirrel caught trying to kill Harry. Snape would have pointed this out to LV. I have answered my own question.

whizbang121

October 29th, 2004, 8:37 pm

Interesting stuff! If I may go back to the whole idea of the pureblood supremecy theory -- if I understand it correctly, Whiz, the idea is that the original plan was to restore supremecy of the pureblood race through the reassertion of the dominance of a single pureblood house (the Blacks). Voldemort initially supported it, but then got ideas of his own and some (including Snape/Regulus?) backed out -- their goal was not about LV, it was about purebloodedness. So Snape's agenda is to wipe out Voldemort, but only because he stands in the way of the original goal of the rise of the purebloods. Or something like that.

Well, in pondering how Sirius, Fudge and the MoM fits in with all of this, it seems like it makes some sense. If Sirius was a detriment to the pureblood position (fraternizing with halfbloods and werewolves and all), it would make sense that they would want to get rid of him. I can see Fudge being sympathic to the cause; after all, he chose Umbridge, so you can assume they are birds of a feather. So -- what if, back in the day, Fudge shows up first upon the "death" of Peter, and sees an opportunity for his side? He can get Sirius out of the way by painting him as a psychotic mass murderer and have him put away where he will likely die like all the rest of the prisoners at Azkaban. He wipes the muggle memories, paints a really frightening picture of Sirius and makes sure he goes to prison without a trial. The grateful supremecists, like Malfoy, make him a hero and see to it he rises quickly in the ranks at the MoM, where they have someone who is not only on their side, but can be manipulated as need be.

Only Sirius won't die. I have my own ideas on the events of PoA (including one that Fudge knew about Peter and wanted him dead; and that he purposely allowed Sirius to escape, knowing that Sirius was no harm to anyone but Peter and recognizing this was an opportunity to let someone else do his dirty work and rid the world of ratboy). Or maybe he let Sirius escape to give him an excuse to get him the kiss, and get rid of the muggle lover once and for all. He was happily living in denial that Voldemort would ever return and he was painting the major challenger to his authority, Dumbledore, as a nutcase, because of his insistence of Voldemort's return. But when Voldemort actually returned in the flesh, he wigged out because he actually has to deal with him for real. And we know there will be a new MoM next book -- so what does that mean, and who will be selecting him/her?

As for Snape: someone was suggesting the supremecists need Harry to kill Voldemort -- but that Harry is incapable of killing anyone. Snape was well be aware of that. He probably believed Harry had every reason to kill Sirius at the end of PoA, given that Sirius was the one who betrayed the Potters -- but he didn't. This was disappointing to Snape in two ways: 1) Sirius was still alive, 2) he couldn't count on Harry to kill out Voldemort when the time came.

So Snape had to take matters into his own hands and teach Harry to be a killer. He saw his opportunity in OotP and manipulated them all. He made sure Harry didn't trust him. He made sure Sirius didn't trust him. And when the vision from Voldemort arrived, Harry didn't believe that Snape would do the right thing, so he went to the DoM. And Snape couldn't (or didn't try) to stop Sirius from going either. Snape wins, because not only does Sirius end up dead, but Harry is finally mad enough to kill. His Avada Kedavra didn't work, but he has come farther along the road to being able to do what Snape needs him to do -- namely, kill Voldemort.

On a side note, all this talk of it being a giant chess match with Snape controlling the pieces makes me think -- I wonder if this is when we start seeing Ron become a real force in the game? So far his role has been more of a sidekick or emotional support, and Hermione has been the brains behind the operation. It would be quite fun to see Ron come to the forefront as the strategic genius behind the game play.
Very nice! :agree:
It does begin to look like puzzle pieces coming together.

And as secret societies with secret agendas seem to popping up all over, let's give the teens and the DA a second look in all this. Will Ron be the DA chessmaster? I've always seen the members of the DA as being the forefront of the battle in the coming war as well as Neville's opportunity to shine. This is a battle on two fronts, Harry vs Voldemort and pureblood supremacists vs the rest of the magical world.
Harry is part of and yet somehow above the war for dominance of the magical world because of the unique connection to Voldemort in the scar.

As for making Harry a killer, this makes sense if Snape doesn't have a clue how to get rid of Vodle. But IMO, Voldemort is still existing in a state "worse than death." I think he's been seperated from his life force which was deposited in the scar on Harry's forehead in the shape of the rune, sowelo. (Anyone who mentions the changeling theory will have candy wrappers thrown at them. Grrrrr........) This is why Harry has Vodlemort's powers and why the DL insisted on Harry's blood for his conjured body.

If that's the case, then death is an improved state for Vodle and if Harry in some way helps him achieve it, he'll be doing the DL a favor. Rather than making Harry a murderer, "killing" Voldemort might be a healing process for Tom Riddle.

"He chose the boy he thought most likely to be a danger to him," said Dumbledore. "And notice this, Harry: he chose, not the pureblood (which, according to his creed, is the only kind of wizard worth being or knowing) but the half-blood, like himself. Suddenly, this is very interesting. I'm not suggesting that Neville would have survived an AK by Voldemort or that he was ever potentially the one. I believe it is Harry because it was always Harry. But look at the thought process Dumbledore attributes to the DL.

We've discussed before the thought that purebloods may on average, be less powerful than muggleborns and mixed bloods. Perhaps all that inbreeding. Did Vodle start out with Slytherin's pureblood mania only to quickly come to this conclusion himself? After all, he is a half blood.

Is that why he believed Harry would be the greater threat? :huh:

And speaking of inbreeding, maybe that answers the question of why Mrs Black was always screaming about the house of her fathers. She was probably a Black herself.

Machiavelli

October 29th, 2004, 11:52 pm

We've discussed before the thought that purebloods may on average, be less powerful than muggleborns and mixed bloods. Perhaps all that inbreeding. Did Vodle start out with Slytherin's pureblood mania only to quickly come to this conclusion himself? After all, he is a half blood.You have? Hmmm, I haven't seen any evidence of that. Hermione is pretty hot stuff, sure but what about all the DE's - they seem pretty good too. I dunno, I'd call that case not-proven.

And speaking of inbreeding, maybe that answers the question of why Mrs Black was always screaming about the house of her fathers. She was probably a Black herself.You definitely need to add the Hapsburgs to your list of historic comparisons then. Maybe someone should have counted Sirius' toes... anyone notice if he had an extra tail or anything?

barmy codger

October 30th, 2004, 2:22 am

whizbang121

October 30th, 2004, 8:18 am

You definitely need to add the Hapsburgs to your list of historic comparisons then. Maybe someone should have counted Sirius' toes... anyone notice if he had an extra tail or anything? :rotfl:

First thing in the AM.

Has anyone ever considered that Snape might be two persons? I have and can't get anywhere with it, but it might account for some of the oddities. Maybe he's twins and they take turns? Or someone polyjuiced and under the Imperius Curse at the same time? Or maybe he's only one of twins and is getting revenge for the suffering or injury or death of the other?
Oddly, we had threads to discuss Sirius being apolyjuiced imposter in OotP because we found his behaviour inconsistent with the Sirius of PoA and GoF.

egonza44

October 30th, 2004, 12:01 pm

whizbang121

November 1st, 2004, 9:34 pm

Has anyone ever considered that Snape might be two persons? I have and can't get anywhere with it, but it might account for some of the oddities. Maybe he's twins and they take turns? Or someone polyjuiced and under the Imperius Curse at the same time? Or maybe he's only one of twins and is getting revenge for the suffering or injury or death of the other?
In OotP, we never see Wormtail or Ludo Bagman and this is the first book with no notice whatsoever of Halloween. Not so much as a chorus of "Happy Death Day to You" for Nearly Headless Nick.
One theory was that Wormtail Silverarm was actually polyjuiced into Sirius. Where and when Sirius went was up for grabs. But the description of Sirius getting bitten by some doodad in Grimmauld Place, and the way it healed after he tapped it with his wand, left some people wondering if it was Sirius. Another consideration was that it was Regulus. The only way to remove the Dark Mark was to amputate part of his arm, which may have left him with a magical prosthetic arm and hand. :eyebrows: Pretty creative, but anything to keep Sirius alive and do away with Wormtail. Bellatrix statement to Voldemort that she had killed the animagus Black, didn't make things any clearer.

Machiavelli

November 1st, 2004, 9:36 pm

In OotP, we never see Wormtail or Ludo Bagman and this is the first book with no notice whatsoever of Halloween. Not so much as a chorus of "Happy Death Day to You" for Nearly Headless Nick.
One theory was that Wormtail Silverarm was actually polyjuiced into Sirius. Where and when Sirius went was up for grabs. But the description of Sirius getting bitten by some doodad in Grimmauld Place, and the way it healed after he tapped it with his wand, left some people wondering if it was Sirius. Another consideration was that it was Regulus. The only way to remove the Dark Mark was to amputate part of his arm, which may have left him with a magical prosthetic arm and hand. :eyebrows: Pretty creative, but anything to keep Sirius alive and do away with Wormtail. Bellatrix statement to Voldemort that she had killed the animagus Black, didn't make things any clearer.Wow. The theories I miss! What exactly was fishy about Sirius healing whatever the wartcap powder did?

I have to say I really, really hope we've seen the last of the polyjuiced person stuff. It's been done and if yet another bad guy manages to pull one off I'll join Fudge in thinking Dumbledore's lost it.

whizbang121

November 1st, 2004, 9:42 pm

Is there the chance that Snape and Malfoy are brothers, so Snpae is overprotecting his nephew and father and uncle want to restore the power of their family? Maybe LV is a obstacle?
Well, but I'm thinking that... if they're brothers everybody'd know it when they're in the school, wouldn't they?
I'm going to think it over.
In the meantime, what do you think?Anything is possible. And I do think it's possible tht Draco may be considered the pureblood male heir of a prominent and possibly royal house. The stage is set for a half blood prince to pull the rug out from under him.

Machiavelli

November 1st, 2004, 9:45 pm

Anything is possible. And I do think it's possible tht Draco may be considered the pureblood male heir of a prominent and possibly royal house. The stage is set for a half blood prince to pull the rug out from under him.Ah - send him on a detour from his road to the throne perhaps?

Blacks Beauty

November 2nd, 2004, 12:32 am

As for making Harry a killer, this makes sense if Snape doesn't have a clue how to get rid of Vodle. But IMO, Voldemort is still existing in a state "worse than death." I think he's been seperated from his life force which was deposited in the scar on Harry's forehead in the shape of the rune, sowelo. (Anyone who mentions the changeling theory will have candy wrappers thrown at them. Grrrrr........) This is why Harry has Vodlemort's powers and why the DL insisted on Harry's blood for his conjured body.

If that's the case, then death is an improved state for Vodle and if Harry in some way helps him achieve it, he'll be doing the DL a favor. Rather than making Harry a murderer, "killing" Voldemort might be a healing process for Tom Riddle.Ok -- so then what does Snape want -- any theories? I mean, if Voldemore is a nuisance in the scheme of pureblood supremacy, and death is an improvement from what he is now... what does Snape want to happen, and how does Harry fit into it? (Not that I think your idea is nutty, I'm just not creative enough to figure it out at the moment! :lol: )

Has anyone ever considered that Snape might be two persons? Actually, the star(s) Sirius are twin stars that revolve around each other... :huh:

Anyway, I have never really bought into the Snape as Regulus theory for one reason: his appearance. I know this is really dangerous, but it seems like we can assume that Regulus as Snape changed his name only, not his appearance, because Harry recognized him in the pensieve (unless he recalls himself looking as he does now, but that's the pensieve argument...) Anyway, if he changed his name but not his appearance, everyone still knows he's Regulus -- Dumbledore, McGonagall, Flitwick, James, Remus, Sirius, the Malfoys & Lestranges (via Narcissca and Bella)... soooo what would be the point of changing his name but not his identity? :huh: The only thing I can come up with is to disavow himself from his family, not unlike what Sirius did by running away when he was a kid. But even if that is the case, Sirius' conversation at the tapestry makes no sense when he says Regulus is dead because Sirius is fighting with him on a regular basis. The conclusion I'm forced to come to then is that everyone in the world knows Snape is Regulus except Harry, and even Sirius (who I tend to think is probably a dreadful liar) thinks there is some really important reason for him not to know that... I don't know, I just can't make it work in my mind, but if anyone has an idea, I'm all ears.

HOWEVER -- what is fascinating about this theory is what it might say about Snape's identity, and the relationship between Snape, Sirius and James. Witness:"Look, Harry," said Sirius placatingly, "james and Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other, it was just one of those things, you can understand that, can't you? Well, actually, no, I can't. I think James was everything Snape wanted to be -- he was popular, he was good at Quidditch, good at pretty much everything. And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James -- whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry -- always hated the Dark Arts.And how exactly did they know all this about each other the moment they set eyes on each other? Or is there some other reason they had a preconceived notion about each other? And then there is this:..."Leave him alone," Lily repeated. She was looking at James with every sign of great dislike. "What's he done to you?"
"Well," said James, appearing to deliberate the point, "it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean..." Hmmm. What if there is more to "existing" than a schoolboy taunt? What if Snape has some claim to pureblood supremacy?

Chievrefueil

November 2nd, 2004, 1:41 am

HOWEVER -- what is fascinating about this theory is what it might say about Snape's identity, and the relationship between Snape, Sirius and James. Witness: Well, actually, no, I can't. And how exactly did they know all this about each other the moment they set eyes on each other? Or is there some other reason they had a preconceived notion about each other? And then there is this: Hmmm. What if there is more to "existing" than a schoolboy taunt? What if Snape has some claim to pureblood supremacy?Very interesting observations! It does make you wonder. . .

whizbang121

November 2nd, 2004, 4:04 am

What if Snape has some claim to pureblood supremacy?And there we have the reason for Snape as Regulus at its deepest level. Is the unspoken reason that Snape and Sirius go at it as they do because Sirius is the heir, but he's a blood traitor and mugglelover? The second son, true to the family philosophy of pureblood supremacy has been struggling for decades to eliminate his older brother putting himself in the primary position. But he has to drive Sirius to the point of putting himself in danger. He can't kill his brother with his own hands. :huh:

So were the marauders protecting more than Lupin? Were they protecting Sirius, too? And after the prophesy was made and Harry was born, it was James and his family that needed to be protected. Essentially, the marauders started out as a tight knit group that looked out for each other. But it couldn't stay that simple forever. Where did wormtail fit into all this? And why was Lupin suspected and outcast? I agree with whoever it was that suggested Snape. And we come full circle to Snape in the Grass.

But I suspect that even if Snape is not Regulus, he might go to the same extremes to get rid of Sirius in order for a worthy heir to inherit. I don't know who it might have been before Draco was born.

Suddenly, I'm thinking about Snape's Worst Memory. Why was that his worst memory? Was that when he realized that the marauders were a coalition working against the aims of the racists? Why did Snape always hate James?

So was Snape's major mission/objective the elimination of Sirius Black once and for all. What will he do now that he appears to have succeeded?

Backstory
Backstory

:banghead:

So why does Dumbledore tolerate Snape? Does he hope that by keeping Snape close at hand he can thwart his efforts? But then why send Snape into Grimmauld place at all. Is it possible he doesn't know? :huh:

emerald eyes

November 2nd, 2004, 4:19 am

Ya got some very interesting and well thought out theories, Whizbang121. Snape is my favoritest of all the characters and I'm always wondering what is his real agenda? You've given me some more (oh no!) ideas to sleep on!

Gwenog Jones

November 2nd, 2004, 4:28 am

So were the marauders protecting more than Lupin? Were they protecting Sirius, too? And after the prophesy was made and Harry was born, it was James and his family that needed to be protected. Essentially, the marauders started out as a tight knit group that looked out for each other. But it couldn't stay that simple forever. Where did wormtail fit into all this? And why was Lupin suspected and outcast?
If the Marauders were trying to protect Lupin, Sirius, and James it is no wonder that everything sort of fell apart.

My head is spinning right now because this thread just gave me so many new thoughts on Snape, I don't know what to think. :huh:

tjrih

November 2nd, 2004, 4:29 am

Whiz, I enjoy reading the posts in here a LOT more than that ridiculous thread about Ron=Dumbledore. What a load of ****!

I am sure that I have said this more than once, but the old saying may answer your questions about Dumbledore trusting Snape.... 'keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer'. I need to do a web search to find out who said that.

Snape DID show up in fake-Moody's foe glass though.

whizbang121

November 2nd, 2004, 4:45 am

Maybe the glass was reflecting the enemies of both Moodys?
The other side of that is why was Snape lurking near the corridor to Dumbledore's office when Harry needed desperately to see the headmaster. (GoF pg 557 - 558)
In GoF, when Harry left Krum in the woods with Crouch Sr and went to get help? He ran straight to Dumbledore's office and not only would Snape not help him, he spent an entire page blocking him.

Was Snape in on the plot to get Harry to the graveyard to face Voldemort. Were the supremacists hoping that this would be the point that Harry and Voldemort would destroy each other? Or at least, Harry would relieve them of the Dark Lord. When this plot failed, did they become obsessed with the prophesy and begin to plant the dream in Harry's mind while they convinced Vodle that he really needed to know about it? Who really needs this info, Vodle or the purebloods? Vodle probably didn't pick up sending the dream, if he ever did, until after Mr Malfoy was attacked. But Harry was having the dream in Privet Drive. :huh:

Blacks Beauty

November 2nd, 2004, 1:13 pm

And there we have the reason for Snape as Regulus at its deepest level. Is the unspoken reason that Snape and Sirius go at it as they do because Sirius is the heir, but he's a blood traitor and mugglelover? The second son, true to the family philosophy of pureblood supremacy has been struggling for decades to eliminate his older brother putting himself in the primary position. But he has to drive Sirius to the point of putting himself in danger. He can't kill his brother with his own hands. Actually, I was thinking that maybe Snape is a secondary or conflicting heir to the throne from another line. There's that comment about "some wounds run too deep for the healing." I wonder if the wounds run even deeper than Severus and Sirius. Maybe it is long-standing battle for the rule of the wizarding world between the houses of Black and Snape. What if the cowering woman had something to do with the fall of the house of Snape and the rise of Sirius as recognized heir to the throne? And there's the name "Severus" -- easy to see where it might mean "severe" but maybe it's "sever us" -- as he somehow relates to the destruction of the house of Snape.

The role of the marauders as protectors of Sirius could still be important, as they choose Sirius over Snape -- though it is hard to see exactly why. Snape comes from a dark arts line apparently, as does Sirius. If this theory has any validity, there would have to be a reason why the Potters would prefer the house of Black over the house of Snape... I don't know, I'm still thinking this through...

phoenix_angel

November 2nd, 2004, 2:20 pm

Actually, I was thinking that maybe Snape is a secondary or conflicting heir to the throne from another line. There's that comment about "some wounds run too deep for the healing." I wonder if the wounds run even deeper than Severus and Sirius. Maybe it is long-standing battle for the rule of the wizarding world between the houses of Black and Snape. What if the cowering woman had something to do with the fall of the house of Snape and the rise of Sirius as recognized heir to the throne? And there's the name "Severus" -- easy to see where it might mean "severe" but maybe it's "sever us" -- as he somehow relates to the destruction of the house of Snape.

The role of the marauders as protectors of Sirius could still be important, as they choose Sirius over Snape -- though it is hard to see exactly why. Snape comes from a dark arts line apparently, as does Sirius. If this theory has any validity, there would have to be a reason why the Potters would prefer the house of Black over the house of Snape... I don't know, I'm still thinking this through... That is an interesting theory.

GredandFeorge

November 2nd, 2004, 3:06 pm

And there we have the reason for Snape as Regulus at its deepest level. Is the unspoken reason that Snape and Sirius go at it as they do because Sirius is the heir, but he's a blood traitor and mugglelover? The second son, true to the family philosophy of pureblood supremacy has been struggling for decades to eliminate his older brother putting himself in the primary position. But he has to drive Sirius to the point of putting himself in danger. He can't kill his brother with his own hands. :huh:
:huh:
Notice in OotP, when Dumbledore is explaining to Harry what went down, he says that Snape eventually alerted the order to the fact that the kids were at the ministry etc. and that "Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at Headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment...But Sirius did not wish to remain behind while the others went to search for you" (OotP pg. 732, PB Canadian edition).
You have to love Dumbledore for trying to make everyone look good, but do we really believe Snape 'requested' that Sirius stayed behind? No way - for sure he goaded him into feeling like a coward, and so of course Sirius would want to go. Perhaps this was Snape's, whether as Snape or Regulus, continual attempt to rid himself of Sirius but without having the use his 'own hands' as you say whizbang. And anyway, where was Snape if he wasn't at the MoM helping fight off death eaters? Why couldn't he stay behind to let Dumbledore know what had happened? It's all just SO fishy! And why does it always seem like Dumbledore ends up a day late and a dollar short? Ok. I'll stop now...

whizbang121

November 2nd, 2004, 3:12 pm

Snape was supposedly out in the woods, with the stampeding centaurs and the rampaging teenage Giant, looking for the kids.

............. Right. :rolleyes: Slytherins don't naturally run into that kind of personal danger. I don't believe him.

Nicole

November 2nd, 2004, 3:13 pm

whizbang121

November 2nd, 2004, 3:18 pm

Actually, I was thinking that maybe Snape is a secondary or conflicting heir to the throne from another line. This makes sense, too. Snape = Regulus is not out of the question, but not carved in stone, by any means.
Young Snape's description reminds me of the description of Viktor Krum. Could Snape be the heir to a royal house of another country? Do the pureblood monarchies look to the house of Black to restore their prominence in the magical world?

Again, why is Snape's Worst Memory his, um ..... errrrr, you know, worst memory? What happened there that we missed? Somewhere, there's a tiny bit of information we haven't noticed, yet.

GredandFeorge

November 2nd, 2004, 3:18 pm

Protect his cover for who though? Umbridge was out in the woods as someone else just pointed out, spending some quality time with the centaurs...true I don't think he could have known that - but I bet he did. Convenient, very convenient...

whizbang121

November 2nd, 2004, 3:33 pm

Ralen

November 2nd, 2004, 3:35 pm

Again, why is Snape's Worst Memory his, um ..... errrrr, you know, worst memory? What happened there that we missed? Somewhere, there's a tiny bit of information we haven't noticed, yet.
I've been stumped on this one for a while too and the best answer I came up with is that being publicly humiliated by his enemies, the Maurauders, really was his worst memory, and worst experience in his life. Which means that whatever evil deeds he performed as a DE or elsewhere, does not classify as something that he is ashamed/embarassed/frightened of.

Does that make sense?

If he had been involved in the torture or death of anyone, you'd think that would come up as a worst memory right? But it doesn't, so this to me, is further evidence that Snape is even more sinister than we thought.

Although I don't want Snape to be a bad guy in the end, I think Snape may end up being Dumbledore's biggest mistake and that Ron's accusations throughout the series will end up being justified.

Nicole

November 2nd, 2004, 3:44 pm

I know people have been arguing the Snape=Regulus, but....It's just a little hard to swallow, even with the Mountain Dew that substitutes for coffee for me!

It seems more likely that Snape may have been the one to kill Regulus, I doubt Voldemort did it. That would just leave Sirius in Snape's way if he is trying to destroy other members of the House of Black (to leave Draco as "heir").

Gwenog Jones

November 2nd, 2004, 4:33 pm

It seems more likely that Snape may have been the one to kill Regulus, I doubt Voldemort did it. That would just leave Sirius in Snape's way if he is trying to destroy other members of the House of Black (to leave Draco as "heir").
Possibly, but Sirius seemed to strongly dislike his brother, just like how he detested his family and everything they stood for. I doubt he even cared THAT much about who killed him..
Again, why is Snape's Worst Memory his, um ..... errrrr, you know, worst memory? What happened there that we missed? Somewhere, there's a tiny bit of information we haven't noticed, yet.
I agree. I can't see Snape's worst memory, especially since he was involved with Voldemort, being bullied as a teenager. Even the memories of the woman cowering in the corner seems worse. There HAS to be something missing here..

whizbang121

November 2nd, 2004, 6:22 pm

I've been thinking about the noble and most ancient house of Black.

Think think think.....

How could they be "toujours pur"? Where do wizards come from? ( Don't even think about the "when a daddy wizard and a mommy wizard love each other very much.." speech. :rolleyes: )

Well, every once in a whille I wander off to fanfic land, and this may be one of those times.

What if the first wizards on earth walked through the arch and the veil? :huh:

What if wizardland is on the other side?

What if most wizards intermarried with muggles (read: mortals) with the exception of one pure house with a continuous, unbroken line? What if that's why Phineas Nigellus was so upset about the death of Sirius, the last pureblood son in an unbroken line since they first walked through the veil?

And the sons of God looked upon the daughters of earth and found them fair.
But Noah was pure in all in his generations.

:scared: Gotta get an umbrella.

Why would Snape want to bring down this house? Or is the real problem the nature of Sirius himself, who rejected his lineage and his family's pureblood mania? Is that why Mrs Black was always howling about the house of her fathers? Both of Sirius parents would have had to be born into the house.

Very weird.

barmy codger

November 2nd, 2004, 6:34 pm

I've been stumped on this one for a while too and the best answer I came up with is that being publicly humiliated by his enemies, the Maurauders, really was his worst memory, and worst experience in his life. Which means that whatever evil deeds he performed as a DE or elsewhere, does not classify as something that he is ashamed/embarassed/frightened of.

Does that make sense?
It makes sense in the light of how we normally think of Snape's Worst Memory, but it doesn't -and nothing else does, either -when one considers that Snape hatred for Harry and JJames is supposedly based on the experience in the Shrieking Shack. Snape's worst memory, as far as life-long motivation goes, should be of Sirius setting him up to meet a werewolf and James' saving his life. Instead, the one he hid from Harry is a public confrontation, different mostly in having Lily as witness. He was also very upset with Harry for seeing this. Was it simply because Harry was a snoop? Was it because he had seen Snape's humiliation, possibly by James' better magic? Or did it have to do with the interaction between Lily and Snape?

Blacks Beauty, I can understand hatred at first sight. Strong dislike happens with muggles, so with wizards who might have legillimency potential, if not developed skills, stronger immediate impressions may be possible. Also, Sirius evaluation of the motives for Snape's dislike, did not have to come from first impressions -it was a summary of the experiences.

whizbang121

November 2nd, 2004, 6:36 pm

Did Snape hate and go after James because the family believed that Sirius rejected the House of Black under his influence and perhaps the influence of the Potters?

Was SWM called that because this was the moment that Snape realized there was no hope of seperating James and Sirius or of Sirius "reforming"? Did he suddenly realize that he had no choice but to kill his lord, a prince upon whom all the hopes of the pureblood supremacists depended? Was it a dreadful moment because Snape finally realized that the House of Black would no longer be headed by a son whose generations were pure? For Snape, the realization that the ancient dynasty had ended and dead or alive, Sirius had broken the unbroken line.

No wonder Mrs Black was so .... disappointed, in him.

But what's the sense of killing Sirius if Regulus is dead, too. Of course, Regulus was still alive at the time of the SWM. But after Regulus was supposedly dead, wouldn't it have made more sense to slip Sirius a love potion and marry him off before he knew what hit him?

Hmmmmm.......

Gwenog Jones

November 2nd, 2004, 9:50 pm

It makes sense in the light of how we normally think of Snape's Worst Memory, but it doesn't -and nothing else does, either -when one considers that Snape hatred for Harry and JJames is supposedly based on the experience in the Shrieking Shack. Snape's worst memory, as far as life-long motivation goes, should be of Sirius setting him up to meet a werewolf and James' saving his life. Instead, the one he hid from Harry is a public confrontation, different mostly in having Lily as witness. He was also very upset with Harry for seeing this. Was it simply because Harry was a snoop? Was it because he had seen Snape's humiliation, possibly by James' better magic? Or did it have to do with the interaction between Lily and Snape?
Something in that scene must have a very deep affect on Snape, something we do not know. Otherwise, it would just be a horrible memory, not his worst. I don't think he got that angry simply because Harry was snooping, since Harry snoops a lot, and Snape knows it. I've never been one to believe that Snape loved Lily, but I feel that he may have been embarassed by a muggle born trying to help him. Hmm..

Chievrefueil

November 3rd, 2004, 12:26 am

Possibly, but Sirius seemed to strongly dislike his brother, just like how he detested his family and everything they stood for. I doubt he even cared THAT much about who killed him..I don't think this is quite true. "Was [Regulus] killed by an Auror?" Harry asked tentatively.

"Oh no," said Sirius. "No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service of death."It seems like Sirius at least made some effort to find out what happened to his brother, so he must have cared. What kind of person doesn't care about his brother, regardless of "politics?"

whizbang121

November 3rd, 2004, 1:06 am

but it doesn't -and nothing else does, either -when one considers that Snape hatred for Harry and JJames is supposedly based on the experience in the Shrieking Shack. "Look, Harry" said Sirius placatingly, "James and Snape hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other, it was just one of those things, you can understand that, can't you? I It seems they hated each other from day one.

I've been asking for over a year why a man who had been a servant of Voldemort, who deserted to face Azkaban, and now has to hide under Dumbledore's protection, in a job he apparently despises, a man who was nearly killed by a werewolf but rescued by his archenemy, and who seemingly had a less than happy childhood consider this his worst memory?

What is in there? Is this when he revealed that he was a racist by calling Lily a mudblood?
The exam was DADA and one of the questions was about werewolves.
James nicked the snitch.
Lupin is the Gryffindor prefect. Presumably, so is Lily. Mirroring the behaviour of Ron and Hermione when the twins test their products on first years, Lily steps into a situation while Lupin hides behind a book. Hopefully, there's more to this than a possible Hermione / George ship.

cajitasazules

November 3rd, 2004, 1:35 am

Do we know that we have seen all of SWM? He pulled Harry out of the pensieve, but could something else have happened? We're being lead to believe it is the public humliation, but the reality could be quite different?

Also, do we know how many memories were removed when Snape put them in the pensieve? We know he moved the wand from his forehead to the pensieve with three times, but how many memories were removed?

We're just being shown by JKR what she wants us to see. We're still not seeing the memory from Snape's perspective, but instead from the biased view of a Harry who has enough motivation to view Snape in a negative light.

Alhanalasa

November 3rd, 2004, 2:47 am

I agree with the editorial I just read yesterday that theorizes that Snape wanted Harry to see this memory. He made a point of using the pensieve in front of child he knows is rule-breaking and then left the device out unguarded. Is it just that he wanted Harry to see his idols in a bad light? Or something more devious?

Gwenog Jones

November 3rd, 2004, 3:08 am

whizbang121

November 3rd, 2004, 3:58 am

And anyway, where was Snape if he wasn't at the MoM helping fight off death eaters? Why couldn't he stay behind to let Dumbledore know what had happened? It's all just SO fishy! And why does it always seem like Dumbledore ends up a day late and a dollar short? Ok. I'll stop now...
Good question. My twenty year old, previously known as The Teen and henceforth known as SiriuslyNot, has some real reservations about Dumbledore. I maintain that Snape is responsible whenever Dumbledore seems to drop the ball. And again, if that episode where Snape obstructed Harry from reaching the headmaster when Crouch Sr was in the woods is an indication, then Snape is actively attempting to block Dumbledore's effectiveness as Malfoy interferes in the ministry. We've seen Snape try to influence Dumbledore often, though we've seldom seen him succeed. What goes on that we don't see?

It looks more and more like there's a secret agenda that revolves around Snape and Malfoy and outside the main plotline. JKR said that she had to kill off Sirius. And we would find out why. :huh:

Although I don't want Snape to be a bad guy in the end, I think Snape may end up being Dumbledore's biggest mistake and that Ron's accusations throughout the series will end up being justified.Go Ron. Actually, this is a good point against the Ron = Dumbledore theory. Unless Dumbledore knows something about how this will all play out that we haven't figured out, yet.

It seems more likely that Snape may have been the one to kill Regulus,...
That would just leave Sirius in Snape's way if he is trying to destroy other members of the House of Black (to leave Draco as "heir").
A point against Snape = Regulus. If Regulus is alive, why are we hearing about a half blood prince? If it's not Dean Thomas, then there someone with a similar story. Perhaps it's Snape himself? Suppose Mr Black had a brother?

Do we know that we have seen all of SWM? Hope not. :eyebrows:
But I suspect that there's something significant in what JKR has given us. We just don't recognise it yet.
Snape in the pensieve seems gawky and graceless and reminds me of Krum. He may have outgrown all that. But what if he didn't? What if Snape as we know him is someone else as Barmy suggested a page ago.
Hmmm.......
Tonks is an animagus. Any more of those in the family? :huh:
Maybe Regulus was Snivellus and he's dead. Maybe Snape was someone else in the pensieve scene.

We're just being shown by JKR what she wants us to see. We're still not seeing the memory from Snape's perspective, You're right. We're not seeing it from Snape's POV. I've always found it interesting that Snape is only referred to as Snivellus in the memory, except in Harry's mind.

grrliz

November 3rd, 2004, 4:22 am

Do we know that we have seen all of SWM?
Hope not. :eyebrows:Definitely not. We don't know how it ends. That could make all the difference in the world. :evil:

whizbang121

November 3rd, 2004, 6:01 am

mmmmm.....

But what are we missing?
Is there a difference in the descriptions of Snivellus and Snape as we know him? Maybe not physically, it would have to be subtle, the walk, the handwriting, the overall demeanor.

Interesting. If Snape is someone else, a metamorph or somehow transformed to look like Snape, that person had to be present in the scene. Is there anyone but the marauders, wormtail, snape and Lily named in the scene?
Off to reread .... again..

Flitwick and Stebbins are mentioned in the test room.

Harry planted himself in the middle of a group of girls.

"If it bothers you," he said, stuffing the Snitch back in his pocket. Harry had the distinct impression that Sirius was the only one for whom James would have stopped showing off.

"I'm bored," said Sirius. "Wish it was full moon."

"You might," said Lupin darkly from behind his book. "We've still got Transfiguration, if you're bored you could test me. Here..." and he held out his book.

But Sirius snorted. "I don't need to look at that rubbish, I know it all."

Sirius seems so self assuredly regal.

"Well," said James, appearing to deliberate the point, "it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean..."
I don't know what he means. What does he know about Snivellus that I don't?

"I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!"

Lily blinked.

"Fine," she said coolly. "I won't bother in future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus."

"Apologise to Evans!" James roared at Snape, his wand pointed threateningly at him.

"I don't want you to make him apologise," Lily shouted, rounding on James. "You're as bad as he is."

"What?" yelped James. I'd NEVER call you a - you-know-what!"

"Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like you've just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can - I'm surprised your broomstick can get off the ground with that fat head on it. You make me SICK."
Snivellus calls Lily a mudblood. Lily accuses James of being just like him. He objects that he would never call her a mudblood. In fact, he seems unable to say the word. Lily rattles off a list of characteristics suggesting she thinks James is a little too stuck on himself.

Just for the sake of argument, is Lily suggesting that James is like Snape the bully? Or is she suggesting that she believes James is like Snape the pureblood racist?

:huh: Hmmmm.........

A hand had closed tight over his upper arm, closed with a pincer-like grip. Wincing, Harry looked round to see who had hold of him, and saw, with a thrill of horror, a fully grown, adult-sized Snape standing right beside him, white with rage.

"Having fun?"

Harry felt himself rising into the air; the summer's day evaporated around him; he was floating upwards through icy blackness, Snape's hand still tight upon his upper arm. Then, with a swooping feeling as though he had turned head-over-heels in midair, his feet hit the stone floor of Snape's dungeon and he was standing again beside the Pensieve on Snape's desk in the shadowy, present-day Potion masters study.

"So," said Snape, gripping Harry's arm so tightly Harry's hand was starting to feel numb. "So... been enjoying yourself, Potter?"

"N-no," said Harry, trying to free his arm.

It was scary: Snape's lips were shaking, his face was white, his teeth were bared.

"Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?" said Snape, shaking Harry so hard his glasses slipped down his nose.

"I - didn't -"

Snape threw Harry from him with all his might. Harry fell hard on to the dungeon floor.

"You will not repeat what you saw to anybody!" Snape bellowed.

"No," said Harry, getting to his feet as far from Snape as he could. "No, of course I w-"

"Get out, get out, I don't want to see you in this office ever again!"

And as Harry hurtled towards the door, a jar of dead cockroaches exploded over his head. Cockroaches? Didn't Lupin turn the boggart moon into a cockroach?
Harry, of course, ran off and told Lupin and Sirius what he saw.

Interestingly, James behaviour throughout the scene is very much like he's just fooling around. But Sirius is cruel, taunting, really mean spirited. He really expresses a strong emotional opinion of Snape.

But Snape never addresses Sirius. All his venom is for James alone. :huh: Why?

Even when he gets Harry out of the pensieve, Snape doesn't mention Sirius at all. Only James.

James seems to concede to Sirius a lot. :huh:

Who is Sirius Black?
Why did JKR say she was sorry she killed him, but it had to be, and we would know why?

Is Snape afraid that if Harry thinks about it, he will realize that Snape has a racist agenda?

barmy codger

November 3rd, 2004, 8:36 am

But what are we missing?
You're missing this:
Round-shouldered yet angular, he walked in a twitchy manner that recalled a spider, his oily hair swinging about his face.
Usually Snape sweeps, making everyone think he's a vampire. This Snape is a spider. Everyone assumes Snape wants to be the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, but that is because everyone in the story assumes it. He never says he does, not outright. Maybe he doesn't have the skill. Maybe the original Snape did.

Also, I think if we understood why Sirius had to die, lots of things would fall into place. My suspicion is he knew too much. He had been kept in isolation since the events in Godric's Hollow. First prisoner in Azkaban, then in exile, then prisoner in Grimmauld Place. I think the jailer was Dumbledore but it had been Snape who wanted Sirius dead, and Snape who goaded Sirius into exposing himself. But both Snape and Dumbledore seem to be collaborators in Sirius' fate. I suspect Sirius and Harry were getting too close. Dumbledore feared Sirius' influence would ruin his plans for Harry, perhaps by information Sirius could give Harry about Lily and James and Godric's Hollow. Information such as why they didn't choose Dumbledore as secret keeper. Parallels to another story I've often mentioned suggest Dumbledore might be jealous of Harry's attachment to Sirius. Who knew of this attachment better than Dumbledore? Not Snape, who didn't even eat at Grimmauld Place. Rather, it was Dumbledore who knew of Harry's owls to Sirius in exile. How did Voldemort learn of this bond between Harry and Sirius? It may not be that, but the outcome would still be similar to the other story if Dumbledore were trying to thwart Sirius' influence on Harry. These are admittedly brazen speculations, and I put them forward because your imagination knows no bounds.

cajitasazules

November 3rd, 2004, 1:42 pm

Re-reading Lily's berating James, made me think. Perhaps there is a closer tie to James & Snape than we have assumed because most signs point to Sirius Black. JKR doesn't always go for the obvious (let's face it things in later books make sense of things in earlier books).

We know very little about the Potter family. We're told James is a pureblood (right?) and he's not on the Black tapestry, yet most families are related. Snape also does not appear. Could Snape be jealous of James and his stake in a pureblood like (or it is assumed pure until James married Lily). James is obviously more tolerant of less tha purebloods.

However, as it was stated in the passage a few posts up, Lily said she wouldn't help Snape anymore. As Lupin said in the PoA movie, she was very tolerant and accepting. My first thought upon hearing this was not that he was speaking of her relationship to himself (which he probasbly was), but of how it related to the Lily we saw in SWM.

Any thoughts?

egonza44

November 3rd, 2004, 3:02 pm

Interestingly, James behaviour throughout the scene is very much like he's just fooling around. But Sirius is cruel, taunting, really mean spirited. He really expresses a strong emotional opinion of Snape.
But Snape never addresses Sirius. All his venom is for James alone. :huh: Why?
Even when he gets Harry out of the pensieve, Snape doesn't mention Sirius at all. Only James.
You've made a great job with that, Whiz. I've never paid attention to this, but it's true. Sev never mentiones Sirius, why? They were related... but how? Relatives? :huh:
Anyway, I don't think this's Snape's worst memory. I agree with the person that said that we don't know how many memories were in the pensieve. Maybe Snape put more memories there and he got so angry because Harry had seen them. Snape didn't know which of these memories Harry saw, he simply got extremely angry. That make me think of three possibilities:
- There were more memories, even worse than those, in the pensieve and Snape suspected that Harry had seen them. Nevertheless, Harry only saw these ones and thought that Snape had put them in the pensieve because were his worst memories.
- There's something hidden in these memories. We have to study them to understand.
- Snape got so angry because the memory of his humiliation. He doens't want Harry know the way he was treated at school. Because it can be an explanation of his behavior as adult. He think Harry is going to take advantage of that or he's going to make jokes and tell everybody about the sad past of Snape. Or can be that he doesn't want anybody feelling sorrow about him.

cajitasazules

November 3rd, 2004, 4:03 pm

Maybe Snape put more memories there and he got so angry because Harry had seen them. Snape didn't know which of these memories Harry saw, he simply got extremely angry.

Snape knows what memory Harry saw because he was in the memory with Harry before pulling him out.

Also, do we know why Harry found this specific memory? When a person views a memory in a pensieve, how is it that they are brought to view a specific memory just when they are snooping?

It's interesting to note that Snape has been a central figure in both of the major pensieve snooping incidents with Harry - Karakoff's trial and SWM.

whizbang121

November 3rd, 2004, 7:18 pm

You're missing this:

Usually Snape sweeps, making everyone think he's a vampire. This Snape is a spider. Everyone assumes Snape wants to be the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, but that is because everyone in the story assumes it. He never says he does, not outright. Maybe he doesn't have the skill. Maybe the original Snape did. Barmy, you might find this enormous post (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=556571&postcount=1)interesting. I don't think there's anything to the Perseus Evans theory, but the suggestion that Snape killed Regulus and took his identity might work better if we reverse it. Maybe Regulus killed Snape and is impersonating him. It's well worth discussing. It's bothered me for a while that Snivellus seems more like the awkward Viktor Krum than the swooping Severus. However, however many people Snape may be, none of them like James or Sirius.
A concept worth developing. :agree:

I think the jailer was Dumbledore but it had been Snape who wanted Sirius dead, and Snape who goaded Sirius into exposing himself. But both Snape and Dumbledore seem to be collaborators in Sirius' fate. I can't disagree with this. You and SiriuslyNot both express a deep suspicion of Dumbledore's motives. ;)
I'm not willing to trash Dumbledore, yet. It seems to me that Snape is more of an influence on events than we realize. He does seem free to "advise" the headmaster, though so far the only advice I've noticed that Dumbledore may have taken from the racists was their insistence that Harry be kept in the dark. Molly is so adamant on this point in both PoA and OotP, and Dumbledore confesses that this was his fatal error. His reasons for keeping Harry uninformed sound like they came out of Molly's mouth.
How else has Dumbledore been influenced unwittingly by the advice of those with a different agenda?

Not Snape, who didn't even eat at Grimmauld Place.
Snape is "in" with Malfoy and Kreacher was explaining all this to Narcissa and her DH who are apparently Voldemort's source. If Snape is working with them then he as well as Molly would have been able to make the headmaster uneasy about Sirius while encouraging the Dark Lord to take advantage of this "soft spot." Rather, it was Dumbledore who knew of Harry's owls to Sirius in exile. How did Voldemort learn of this bond between Harry and Sirius? Unfortunately, Dumbledore trusts Snape and I believe it was Kreacher who exposed the bond between Harry and Sirius to Voldemort. It may not be that, but the outcome would still be similar to the other story if Dumbledore were trying to thwart Sirius' influence on Harry. These are admittedly brazen speculations, and I put them forward because your imagination knows no bounds. http://websmileys.com/sm/crazy/349.gif
Who told you?!
Drat.. :whistle:

Re-reading Lily's berating James, made me think. Perhaps there is a closer tie to James & Snape than we have assumed because most signs point to Sirius Black.
Point well taken. Perhaps the question isn't "Who is Sirius Black?" but "Who is James Potter?"
Hmmm...... :huh:

We know very little about the Potter family. We're told James is a pureblood (right?) and he's not on the Black tapestry, yet most families are related. Snape also does not appear. Could Snape be jealous of James and his stake in a pureblood like (or it is assumed pure until James married Lily). James is obviously more tolerant of less tha purebloods.I'm not sure we know that the Potters were pureblood, but if they were, James at least was a mugglelover and probably got blasted off the tapestry, if he was ever on it. Snape is also not mentioned. Is he not a pureblood? Could he be from another country? Is he on the Tapestry under a previous name? I don't know. Jealousy of James' stake in a pureblood life? Do you mean that Snape is jealous that Sirius likes James rather than him?
However, as it was stated in the passage a few posts up, Lily said she wouldn't help Snape anymore. As Lupin said in the PoA movie, she was very tolerant and accepting. My first thought upon hearing this was not that he was speaking of her relationship to himself (which he probasbly was), but of how it related to the Lily we saw in SWM.
Any thoughts?James and Lily were headboy and girl in their year. We know that James was not the Gryffindor prefect in their fifth year. Lupin was. James, however, was headboy, (because he saved Snape's life?)
But back to Lily, it seems a safe guess that Lily was the other Gryffindor prefect that year.
Did she intervene in the SWM scene as a compassionate human being? Or was she acting in her capacity as a school prefect? This distiction may be important?

I also love how Hermione and Ron mirror Lily and Remus perfectly in the scene where Hermione stops the twins from testing their inventions on first years while Ron hides under a table. :lol:

...

- There's something hidden in these memories. We have to study them to understand.
- Snape got so angry because the memory of his humiliation. He doens't want Harry know the way he was treated at school. Because it can be an explanation of his behavior as adult. He think Harry is going to take advantage of that or he's going to make jokes and tell everybody about the sad past of Snape. Or can be that he doesn't want anybody feelling sorrow about him.This does make sense. But he should know Harry better than to think Harry would mock him all over school because of what he saw in that scene. (Imagine if Draco had seen something like that? :horror: )

Snape may not know which or how many memories Harry did see, but JKR showed us this one. At the moment, it's all we have to work with. :(

It's interesting to note that Snape has been a central figure in both of the major pensieve snooping incidents with Harry - Karakoff's trial and SWM. Oooooo.....
Good one, LB!

Pensieve memories are definitely trying to tell us something ..... something about Snape?

barmy codger

November 3rd, 2004, 8:36 pm

Barmy, you might find this enormous post (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=556571&postcount=1)interesting. I don't think there's anything to the Perseus Evans theory, but the suggestion that Snape killed Regulus and took his identity might work better if we reverse it. Maybe Regulus killed Snape and is impersonating him. It's well worth discussing. It's bothered me for a while that Snivellus seems more like the awkward Viktor Krum than the swooping Severus.
Thanks for the link. It is pretty complex.
You and SiriuslyNot both express a deep suspicion of Dumbledore's motives. ;)
My suspicions of Dumbledore are not ideas that I enjoy, but there is a pattern that indicates he can not be accepted at face value. I have attributed his motives not to evilness, but to a desire of stopping Voldemort at all costs. I extend this to Godric's Hollow, where it would make little sense to hide and try to go against the Prophecy if the events it foretold were the only way to stop Voldemort. This could be a case where the Potters didn't want to yield their son to the cause, in contrast to Dumbledore. But that's just one possibility. Dumbledore's growing love for Harry would be a complication he had not anticipated.
I'm not willing to trash Dumbledore, yet. It seems to me that Snape is more of an influence on events than we realize. He does seem free to "advise" the headmaster, though so far the only advice I've noticed that Dumbledore may have taken from the racists was their insistence that Harry be kept in the dark. Molly is so adamant on this point in both PoA and OotP, and Dumbledore confesses that this was his fatal error. His reasons for keeping Harry uninformed sound like they came out of Molly's mouth.
How else has Dumbledore been influenced unwittingly by the advice of those with a different agenda?
Snape is "in" with Malfoy and Kreacher was explaining all this to Narcissa and her DH who are apparently Voldemort's source. If Snape is working with them then he as well as Molly would have been able to make the headmaster uneasy about Sirius while encouraging the Dark Lord to take advantage of this "soft spot." Unfortunately, Dumbledore trusts Snape and I believe it was Kreacher who exposed the bond between Harry and Sirius to Voldemort.
It's hard to keep up with all the ideas. My point about the relation between Sirius and Harry was that only Dumbledore knew its true depth. The others saw fewer displays of it, but yes that could be enough for Voldemort to make plans around it. Molly bothers me, too. What a coincidence that Pettigrew lived with them as a rat. Her tears over the possible deaths of her children make sense if she is concerned about bloodline, but Harry dead was part of her boggart scene, as well, so I don't know.
Perhaps the question isn't "Who is Sirius Black?" but "Who is James Potter?"
Have you considered Snape as Hamlet, his revenge and his motives?
Pensieve memories are definitely trying to tell us something ..... something about Snape?
Could it be Snape's worst memory was not Snape's? Or could it be Dumbledore, bound to Snape by a fidelius of some sort, cannot tell Harry about him, so he does it indirectly by the pensieve? Or about James. The word snitch means to steal or a tattletale, and as everyone likes to point out, he nicked it.

whizbang121

November 3rd, 2004, 9:52 pm

Thanks for the link. It is pretty complex. My eyes uncrossed after a few minutes. But there are interesting ideas in there. It could probably be condensed to a few sentences, but why lose the flavor and all the references? :lol:
My suspicions of Dumbledore are not ideas that I enjoy, but there is a pattern that indicates he can not be accepted at face value. I have attributed his motives not to evilness, but to a desire of stopping Voldemort at all costs. I agree, but is it possible he's unaware of plotters scheming under his nose? It's all so medieval court intrigues soap opera-esque. He must have read a book like that one time or another. For that matter, Hermione must have, too.

I extend this to Godric's Hollow, where it would make little sense to hide and try to go against the Prophecy if the events it foretold were the only way to stop Voldemort. This could be a case where the Potters didn't want to yield their son to the cause, in contrast to Dumbledore. But that's just one possibility. Dumbledore's growing love for Harry would be a complication he had not anticipated. I think that when the Potters retreated to Godric's Hollow, no one knew yet which boy was "the one." And why offer an infant to the cause not knowing if he was even the subject of the prophesy? It also seems reasonable to try to bring both boys as close to adulthood as possible, to train and prepare them.

It's hard to keep up with all the ideas. My point about the relation between Sirius and Harry was that only Dumbledore knew its true depth. The others saw fewer displays of it, but yes that could be enough for Voldemort to make plans around it. Molly bothers me, too. What a coincidence that Pettigrew lived with them as a rat. Her tears over the possible deaths of her children make sense if she is concerned about bloodline, but Harry dead was part of her boggart scene, as well, so I don't know. She was trying to do the Ridikkulus. Maybe the corpses were what she found funny. :evil:
But more likely, she's as concerned about losing Harry as she is about losing her own kids, because Harry is the weapon the racists need to get rid of that double crosser, Voldemort. That's one thing they have in common with the rest of the magical world. They need to get rid of Vodle.

Have you considered Snape as Hamlet, his revenge and his motives?Not personally. There's a Hamlet thread around here somewhere, though. What do you think?

Could it be Snape's worst memory was not Snape's? Or could it be Dumbledore, bound to Snape by a fidelius of some sort, cannot tell Harry about him, so he does it indirectly by the pensieve? Or about James. The word snitch means to steal or a tattletale, and as everyone likes to point out, he nicked it.The question of whose memory it is is like the question of the pensieve's objectivity. Based on what was apparently Dumbledore's memory of the trials that Harry saw in the headmaster's office, it's very hard to determine who's memory it is. It could be the beech tree's. Or if Dumbledore was wandering around invisible, it could have been his. It might have been left in there long ago by any one of the maraders. Very difficult.

Or could it be Dumbledore, bound to Snape by a fidelius of some sort, cannot tell Harry about him, so he does it indirectly by the pensieve? Hmmm..... :huh: Intresting. Wouldn't that be cheating on the part of the secret keeper, though? Or about James. The word snitch means to steal or a tattletale, and as everyone likes to point out, he nicked it.Snitchnick James. :)
Wonder where he snitched it from.

What did the Potters do for a living? Lily's wand was good for charms and James' for transformations. Well, he sure did get transformation down. :agree:
Did they own the snitch factory? Why might that be important to the plot?

barmy codger

November 3rd, 2004, 10:34 pm

There's a Hamlet thread around here somewhere, though. What do you think?
I think there should be a Harry Potter spreadsheet where all the variables could be entered and the results studied. Change an item and see what happens. I haven't read Shakespeare, I'm ashamed to admit. But I know the plays generally and Othello through the opera. They're on the agenda because the esoteric runs through them, and through 'Don Quixote'. There are arguments that Francis Bacon wrote this and Shakespeare's plays. I was thinking in terms of 'Hamlet's Mill' and all the myths. Snape's character involves duplicity but none of the plot where he's concerned seems similar, in my uneducated view.
Wouldn't that be cheating on the part of the secret keeper, though?
Yes.

I also noticed Flitwick taught Defense Against the Dark Arts.. Why not now?

whizbang121

November 3rd, 2004, 10:44 pm

Francis Bacon wrote DonQuixote? :huh: I missed that one, but it not something I would probably pick up.

You know I never picked up that Flitwick was the DADA professor? http://websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing20.gif

Doesn't he also have a reputation as a dueling champion?

Why am I thinking of Yoda? :blush:

Nicole

November 3rd, 2004, 10:48 pm

I don't think Flitwick was the DADA teacher, I think he was an examiner before taking a teaching post at Hogwarts.

whizbang121

November 3rd, 2004, 11:34 pm

I don't think Flitwick was the DADA teacher, I think he was an examiner before taking a teaching post at Hogwarts.
Oh, right. O.W.L.S.

:blush:

Nicole

November 3rd, 2004, 11:46 pm

The Yoda part was funny, Whiz! He did have such wonderful dueling skills and is probably about the same height as Flitwick (maybe a little shorter, and definitely greener!). Both teach potentially powerful pupils....the pupils both have to fight powerful dark "wizards"...Talk of doing a 180 leads to thoughts of Anakin to Darth Vader back to Anakin (that's a double 180, no?!)....

I can just hear it: "Harry, I am your descendant! You are my father..." LOL

Sirius' Babi

November 4th, 2004, 12:04 am

I don't see what the uproar of Molly is , she is a very OVERPROTECTIVE mother! nothing more nothing less. On the other hand , Snape would have been killed already if he was being protected from Voldemort. Let's think of that fact! Plus we all know Lucius is a death eater therefore he wouldn't be so close to the malfoys if he was known to be a traitor! Let's think about that too!
*Sirius' Babi

Nicole

November 4th, 2004, 12:24 am

But Molly's boggart wasn't seen to be Charlie or Ginny--is Harry more important to her than they are?

Oh, and if Voldemort never named the traitor, Lucius may not know who it is.

cajitasazules

November 4th, 2004, 1:57 am

Gwenog Jones

November 4th, 2004, 2:11 am

But Molly's boggart wasn't seen to be Charlie or Ginny--is Harry more important to her than they are?

Oh, and if Voldemort never named the traitor, Lucius may not know who it is.
I don't think Molly cares about Harry more than them, I just think that JKR didn't take time to make the boggart turn into every Weasley.

The whole Lucius/Snape relationship confuses me. I don't think he knows who Voldemort is talking about when he mentions the traitor. However, if he does know, and if it is Snape, why is he still friends with him..

Nicole

November 4th, 2004, 2:21 am

Actually, Gwenog, I wonder if the boggart hadn't turned into Charlie and Ginny before Harry entered the room. Harry did come after the other Weasleys....But this thread is about Snape's Secret Agenda and the perpetrator of the theory has included Molly as a suspicious character (I, too, think she is just overprotective, but it is fun to theorize while we wait for the next book!).

Shark_M

November 4th, 2004, 6:09 pm

Snape Could have been the reason The Dark Lord Could not kill harry potter as a baby, he alerted the potters as to what the dark lord was about to do, just before he paid them a visit.....................This way he betrayed the Dark Lord, and left him.... this is why he is trusted by Dumbledore. Snape would not kill or hurt harry potter, because its in his interest too. Snape was bullied by James, because snape thought he is alienated and wanted to be with james as friends............Later on Snape after going with the dark lord, so he can show people that bullied him , that he is something now...found that he made a big mistake.............the only way to repair that , is to foil the plot of the dark lord. To make Lily and james prepared before hand as to what is going to happen, giving lily the time to envoke an ancient magic to protect harry from the dark lord...........But even this, even though snape dont want to harm harry he does not like him becuase it means he gave in to people who used to make fun or hert his feelings when they were studients just like malfoy and harry and hermione.......if Ron and hermine (james and lilly) gave bith to a son, and made harry potter the son's god father, then they face danger from a dark lord, Malfoy being alienated joins the dark lord, and then realize that he made a big mistake,a nd to correct this he tips Hermione and Ron that the dark lord is comming to get Their son, and so on.... u see now my point ? ----------- just a thought

whizbang121

November 4th, 2004, 7:13 pm

I quick read a few posts and I'll be back to be more thorough. But if this Secret Agenda is real, then the supremacists have as much at stake in Harry as the mugglelovers. They all want Voldemort gone, and as near as anyone can tell, only Harry can get rid him for them. Is this why Dumbledore trusts Snape? They have the same objective, but for different reasons.

"He's got dark powers the rest of us can only dream of!" Pettigrew shouted shrilly. "How else did he get out of there? I suppose He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named taught him a few tricks!"

Black started to laugh, a horrible, mirthless laugh that filled the whole room.

"Voldemort, teach me tricks?" he said.

So again my question is, who is Sirius Black, that he is amused at the suggestion that the Dark Lord might teach him anything?

It's driving me around the bend but I keep coming up with the same answer. Sirius is some kind of Dark Lord himself, the trueborn king of a dark and ancient dynasty.

Is this connected with the veil? The Grim, the harbinger of death, is a large black dog. The Grim Reaper.
Sirius was a big black dog. Fluffy, friendly and cute it's true. But all the same.

Is Harry alive because Sirius was his godfather? Is the fact that money from Sirius' vault deep in Gringott's high security area, very near the Hogwarts vault, was drawn with Harry's name a hint to a connection between Harry and his grandfather deeper than whether Harry will get Sirius' money and property or not? :huh:

JKR said once that the series was about death, and dealing with death. Was Sirius Black the Angel of Death? Was Voldemort more than a double crosser? Was he a rival for the throne of death?

Now, where does James Potter fit into this?
And we will learn about Lily.
And their occupations.

Hmmmm............................

Natalie_Figg

November 5th, 2004, 12:34 am

I knew there had to be a Shakespeare connection! Hamlet makes perfect sense in terms of being a revenge play. Now all we would need to do is discover who each character is paired up with in terms of the story. If it's the case, there should be a play with in the play, which is where Hamlet attempted to catch the king and force him to admit the truth.

Just did a quick scan and your comments caught my eye...
Harry could be a kind of Hamlet, some people debate his sanity. His obsession with Voldy, avenging his parents, is like Hamlet's desire to kill Claudius to avenge his Father. Perhaps Ron and Hermione will reflect Laertes and Ophelia...oh silly nonsense..how fun!

As for Snape, I agree that we will see so much more of him. But I am one of those annoying people who do not see Snape as evil, or even very bad. Yes he does abuse his power. But considering his obviously horrid childhood, and being bullied, lack of friends, is it any wonder? Furthermore I think he has just made mistakes (and some of them) he will rectify. I don't believe he's set to getting a personality transplant, but perhaps some of his horrible attitdude is a way of controlling any potential misbehaving kids. Although it has just struck me how very well behaved in lessons the children are!?

whizbang121

November 5th, 2004, 1:41 am

As for Snape, I agree that we will see so much more of him. But I am one of those annoying people who do not see Snape as evil, or even very bad. Yes he does abuse his power. But considering his obviously horrid childhood, and being bullied, lack of friends, is it any wonder? Furthermore I think he has just made mistakes (and some of them) he will rectify. I don't believe he's set to getting a personality transplant, but perhaps some of his horrible attitdude is a way of controlling any potential misbehaving kids. Although it has just struck me how very well behaved in lessons the children are!?Do you have anything to say about this topic? Please discuss Snape's psychology in one of the multitude of threads focused on that subject.

I knew there had to be a Shakespeare connection! Hamlet makes perfect sense in terms of being a revenge play.

Hamlet (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=25768&highlight=hamlet)
Macbeth (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20473&highlight=MacBeth)
Shakespear (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=37493)

Interesting. :agree:

Blacks Beauty

November 5th, 2004, 5:40 am

It's driving me around the bend but I keep coming up with the same answer. Sirius is some kind of Dark Lord himself, the trueborn king of a dark and ancient dynasty...JKR said once that the series was about death, and dealing with death. Was Sirius Black the Angel of Death? Was Voldemort more than a double crosser? Was he a rival for the throne of death?Ewww. That's right scary. But I have long believed there was something far more important to Sirius than just being a friend of James and godfather of Harry. Death certainly was a recurring theme with Sirius. Interesting, too, that Voldemort obsesses with conquering death. Sirius has dodged death many times (with Peter, in Azkaban, twice at the end of PoA)... Then there is that blasted veil and the vague way Sirius "dies." Indeed, what if it is Sirius, not Voldemort, that conquers death? What about the relationship between Sirius and Dumbledore? Did DD let Sirius rot in Azkaban without a trial, and then at #12 because he wanted him confined for some reason? Hmm, king of death, I need to ponder that more...

Regrettably, we are coming up with lots of questions, but not a lot of answers. If I may, I'm going to throw out more as it relates to Snape and Sirius and a couple of key events. First -- the Shrieking Shack. We are led to believe this is a boyhood prank gone awry. But is it? If there is some sort of pureblood rivalry between Snape and Sirius, this could have been an overt attempt on Snape's life. Prove his superiority once and for all. While I just can't really picture Sirius as wanting a kingship, I know in my gut there is more to that episode than a boyhood prank.

Second -- Sirius leaves #12, apparently the same year as the Shrieking Shack incident. Did he leave before or after the incident? Is there a relationship between the two events? Did he really leave of his own accord or was he kicked out? What was the relationship between Snape and the Blacks, and when (and why) did the Malfoys and LeStranges befriend Snape? Gee, it could come back to the Snape=Regulus idea, but... I dunno. I do think there is significance to the timing of Sirius leaving with respect to the Shrieking Shack incident, but I can't put it together.

It's worth reminding too, that Snape was a Slytherin, who are noted not just for purebloodedness but ambition as well. It would fit in well with the idea of some sort of rivalry between a natural-born prince and an ambitious wanna-be. (Anybody really think his ambition was to be Hogwart's potions master? I thought not.) Oh -- and they're cunning too. Uh-huh. Secret agendas, indeed...

barmy codger

November 5th, 2004, 6:18 am

...found that he made a big mistake.............the only way to repair that , is to foil the plot of the dark lord.
I don't see how foiling Voldemort's plot and helping the Potters repairs Snape's mistake. Doing something like that doesn't seem very Slytherin either.
So again my question is, who is Sirius Black, that he is amused at the suggestion that the Dark Lord might teach him anything?

It's driving me around the bend but I keep coming up with the same answer. Sirius is some kind of Dark Lord himself, the trueborn king of a dark and ancient dynasty.
My impression was that Sirius would not have anything to do with the dark arts and so would not be interested in anything Voldemort had to teach him. Your question made me think more and I can see that since Sirius is a Black, he may have learned a lot about the dark arts from his family and their friends. It may be he was so brilliant a wizard that he could rival Voldemort, but that seems unlikely.

We have nothing in Sirius' treatment of Harry or Lily to indicate ill will toward non-pure blood.

You know, if this continues, everyone will have a secret agenda. It's amusing, but it is an indication that something screwy is going on in this story.

whizbang121

November 5th, 2004, 6:33 am

Ewww. That's right scary. But I have long believed there was something far more important to Sirius than just being a friend of James and godfather of Harry. Death certainly was a recurring theme with Sirius. Interesting, too, that Voldemort obsesses with conquering death. Sirius has dodged death many times (with Peter, in Azkaban, twice at the end of PoA)... Then there is that blasted veil and the vague way Sirius "dies." Indeed, what if it is Sirius, not Voldemort, that conquers death? What about the relationship between Sirius and Dumbledore? Did DD let Sirius rot in Azkaban without a trial, and then at #12 because he wanted him confined for some reason? Hmm, king of death, I need to ponder that more...

It's "Out There" I know. But somehow, there's a trail of breadcrumb clues on the ground to follow. As for the ancient Arch and the Veil, what if the Blacks originally came here through it? What if all wizards did?

If the Blacks have anything to do with "reigning over death," of wizards at least, does this cause a problem with muggleborns, Wizards not born of the Veil? How does that work out? Is this why Harry/we know nothing whatsoever about the customs and traditions surrounding death in the wizarding world?

In the end, will magical beings be lost to the earth and wizards offered the opportunity to walk through the veil or remain behind as muggles? (I know. I read LotR.)

Yup. :agree: Fanfic. I've lost it now. :rolleyes: The breadcrumb trails are in the next county somewhere, and I'm obviously lost in the forest. :whistle: Wonder where the Snape and Potter trails lead?

First -- the Shrieking Shack. We are led to believe this is a boyhood prank gone awry. But is it? If there is some sort of pureblood rivalry between Snape and Sirius, this could have been an overt attempt on Snape's life. Prove his superiority once and for all. While I just can't really picture Sirius as wanting a kingship, I know in my gut there is more to that episode than a boyhood prank.

Second -- Sirius leaves #12, apparently the same year as the Shrieking Shack incident. Did he leave before or after the incident? Is there a relationship between the two events? Did he really leave of his own accord or was he kicked out? What was the relationship between Snape and the Blacks, and when (and why) did the Malfoys and LeStranges befriend Snape? Gee, it could come back to the Snape=Regulus idea, but... I dunno. I do think there is significance to the timing of Sirius leaving with respect to the Shrieking Shack incident, but I can't put it together. Good point. Hmmm.... But if the threw Sirius out of the house before his uncle Alfie died, who paid for his sixth year at Hogwarts, the year he spent school holidays with the Potters until he got his own place?
It's worth reminding too, that Snape was a Slytherin, who are noted not just for purebloodedness but ambition as well. It would fit in well with the idea of some sort of rivalry between a natural-born prince and an ambitious wanna-be. (Anybody really think his ambition was to be Hogwart's potions master? I thought not.) Oh -- and they're cunning too. Uh-huh. Secret agendas, indeed...:agree: Looks like there are lots of them. Palace intrigue.
It occurs to me that we might need a thread to post the comments of our preHogwarts age Harry Potter fans. What should we call it? Hmmm...
The Wit and Wisdom of ..... Wizardlings? :no:

I'll ask swishandflick. She's great with this stuff. :agree:

My impression was that Sirius would not have anything to do with the dark arts and so would not be interested in anything Voldemort had to teach him. Your question made me think more and I can see that since Sirius is a Black, he may have learned a lot about the dark arts from his family and their friends. It may be he was so brilliant a wizard that he could rival Voldemort, but that seems unlikely. Some of JKR's most offhand remarks, so seemingly easy to understand in the light of the moment, end up being foreshadowing or out and out hints. For example, in ch 1 of GoF, Voldemort tells Wormtail that he will be allowed to perform a service that other Death Eaters would give their right hands to perform. :eyebrows:

Clearly we can't read every sentence that way .... I don't think. :huh: But if we can track several of these types of statements leading to a similar conclusion, we may be on to something.

Or I could be lost in the woods following ufos to disneyland. :lol:

We have nothing in Sirius' treatment of Harry or Lily to indicate ill will toward non-pure blood. Exactly. Is he the first to revolt against the family tradition?

You know, if this continues, everyone will have a secret agenda. It's amusing, but it is an indication that something screwy is going on in this story.
My "secret agenda" to get to bed at a decent hour for the first time since the Red Sox played the Yankees went down the drain about two hours ago. :elaugh:

la vita e bella

November 5th, 2004, 9:05 pm

I think Bellatrix is the most faithful servant. I mean, she seems more dedicated to him more than her own husband. I wonder how her husband feels...

And, though this is slightly off topic, I don't believe Snape would ever betray Dumbledore. He trusts him too much and , no matter how much he disagrees, he will do anything Dumbledore says. I dont get why some people actually think he would go back to the dark side.

whizbang121

November 6th, 2004, 6:07 am

Blacks Beauty

November 7th, 2004, 5:29 am

Returning to the death angle for a moment, I've gone under the assumption all this time that the death foreshadowing stuff related specifically to Sirius; but really, it is much deeper than that, isn't it? Grimmauld Place, the mounted house-elf heads, the troll leg umbrella stand... lots of dead stuff, but not really specific to Sirius, it's Black stuff. The death thing might be following him, not to foreshadow his death but because he's a Black and that's what Blacks are all about.
Is this connected with the veil? The Grim, the harbinger of death, is a large black dog. The Grim Reaper.
Sirius was a big black dog. Fluffy, friendly and cute it's true. But all the same.One of the other many black dog superstitions I've read paints the Grim as a guardian of the dead (http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/folklore/cgrim_barguest.html). When a new church or cemetary was founded, they would bury a black dog first, to act as a guardian and protect the souls of those subsequently buried there from evil spirits. So perhaps Sirius' grim represents the church grim; death is central to his character, but rather than being the harbinger of evil, he is a protector against it. That could be symbolic of his separation from his family's dark ways, as well as hinting at whatever reason it is that Sirius had to die. :huh:

btw,The revelation that chapter six is named for Draco is rather intriguing in light of this theory -- maybe Draco is about to become more to the story than just a thorn in Harry's side. :evil:

whizbang121

November 7th, 2004, 9:12 pm

So that Sirius could be the Black who changes the perception of Death from a dark terror to the next great adventure? The symbol of a New Age transformation in the perception of death? Suppose that's why Sirius got the speech about the "dead we love never leave us" speech in the movie?

On another note, I posted this at an lj group about Sirius Black where the similarities between Sirius and Harry had come up.

It's interesting that in ch 3 of PoA, "The Knight Bus" Harry actually compares himself to the fugitive Sirius Black and thinks of his future as a life on the run. (poa, pg 32, sch)

In the thread about Snapes Secret Agenda
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=37286&page=6&pp=30
I've been wondering just who exactly Sirius Black is. And it has occured to me that Harry may have survived Godric's Hollow because Sirius is his godfather.
Interesting.

If any of my conclusions about Sirius are near the mark, then freedom is a strong point between Harry and his godfather. They are both born to inescapable fates. For them, their choices are only about their integrity and influence on the people around them. But they themselves are trapped by destinies they may postpone, but cannot avoid.

phoenix_angel

November 8th, 2004, 2:47 pm

True very true but still I am wondering what is his motivation for saving Harry, I mean I don't really believe that it was to repay Harry's father.

gottaloveLupin

November 8th, 2004, 3:27 pm

I just read your intoduction whizbang121. I haven't had time to read the comments, sorry.

but I don't understand which is the connection between Snape and James's death, voldemort not being willing to kill Lily etc.

Is this another thread where we pitty "poor" Snape and say what a great guy he is?
The books are not about vengence, in my opinion. They are about choices. and about the power of friendship and love. About sacrifice.
Just like lOTR.
The choices we make tell who we are, not our abilities.

The Harry Potter books are not about snape" miserable " life.
He is far from being the character with the most miserable, horrible life.
Yes, he had a taugh childhood, but he wasn't an innocent lamb. A person so full of hatred and prejudices, capable of calling " filthy mudblood" a girl who tried to help him, is not innocent.
Yes, he showed a lot of strenght by reisiting Voldemort and joining the order.
I don't know which are the consequences of such an action for him right now, but I guess it's not very pleasent.

But he isn't " poor" Snape. He has a good position. he has a job. Money to feed himself and to buy himself cloth.
He could be very respected and appreciated, but he choses not to by being a horrible teacher and a nasty human being and treating evrybody like sh....

Poor is Sirius, who spent 12 years in Azkaban, facing the Dementors evry day and managed to remain alife and almost sane
Who after that spent another 2 years hiding, eating rats and being kept in the only place he hates probably as much as Azkaban: his parents house.
Poor Sirius who hasn'r have the chance of a real life.

Poor Harry. Who loved 11 years in a cupboard under the stairs with a family who hated him. Without enough food, without good cloth, being bullied constantly by Dudley, Vernon, petunia and basically any other person alive.
Poor Harry who has to live without his parents, withour knowing anything abput them.
poor Harry who has to face the most powerful and evil wizard of all times.
Poor Harry who is continually bullied and misjudged even in school.
Who has lost the person he cared about the most.
Who at 16 has to acept that he has to either kill or be killed.

Poor Remus. Who was bitten by a werewolf when he was a child. Who has had to live an entire life with this curse. Poor Remus who has to face each month a terrible tranformation. A transformation painful phisically and mentally. The curse of knowing that once a month you cease to be a human being. You cease to think and feel. The fear of hyrting someone, of becoming an assasin.
The loneliness of losing all of your friends. The only persons who accepted you as you are, who knew him.
The pain of being shunned by society for something which is not at all your fault. The pain of receiving rejection and fear when what they shpuld give you comprehension and confort.
Poor Remus who once again has lost his friend. Poor Remus who can't find a job. Who camn't feed very well. Who can't dress very well.
but who remains a gentle, caring, understanding human being.

I think I rambled enough. Now I am going to try to read some of the other posts. Maybe I 've misunderstood.

But one thing is for sure: these books are not about Snape and are not about vengence.
They are about choice. Snape made a choice and Remus made another one. completely different.
one has decided to live in the past and the other to look towards the future.
one has chosen bitterness the other forgiveness. One has chosen vengenance the other has chosen kidness.

And Harry ahs to make ther same decision now: hope or despair. Love or hate. Victory or defeat.

whizbang121

November 8th, 2004, 3:29 pm

True very true but still I am wondering what is his motivation for saving Harry, I mean I don't really believe that it was to repay Harry's father.
I'm assuming you're referring to an earlier post and you mean why Snape saved Harry?

If the pureblood supremacists were doublecrossed by Voldemort, then they want to get rid of him as much as the muggle loving good guys do. As Harry is the only one to have made a dent in the DL so far, and as Snape may know enough of the prophesy to realize that only Harry can kill Vodlemort, the supremacists have as much of a stake in Harry as Dumbledore and company.

Is this another thread where we pitty "poor" Snape and say what a great guy he is?

I'm running out the door and I will be back to absorb your whole post. But NO I do not pity Snape. He is as JKR says, "a deeply horrible man."

gottaloveLupin

November 8th, 2004, 3:36 pm

I'm running out the door and I will be back to absorb your whole post. But NO we do not pity Snape. He is as JKR says
a deeply horible man"

Good! :p

cajitasazules

November 8th, 2004, 4:32 pm

But NO we do not pity Snape. He is as JKR says a deeply horible man"

Pity is an awful thing. (Trust me, when people do that to me I want to hex them - I'm in a wheelchair.)

Do I pity Snape for his childhood? Not at all. I do, however, find it unfortunate that he has been unable to overcome and rise above that hardship.

Snape is an increasingly complex character, which is why he is fascinating character. I love him for his dark aura of mystery, his complexities, and his unknown motives. He's neither a transparent nor a 1 dimensional character.

Snape has shown, so far, that he has not risen above his upbringing, but what if his sole desire is to bring himself into a positive light for her family, particularly his father, if that father is still alive?

Blacks Beauty

November 8th, 2004, 5:56 pm

I think I rambled enough. Now I am going to try to read some of the other posts. Maybe I 've misunderstood. Please do. :) I think you'll be pleased to find this thread is more about exploring what dark secrets he's hiding, and if and how it relates to the greater wizarding world, outside of Harry, James and the rest.

So that Sirius could be the Black who changes the perception of Death from a dark terror to the next great adventure? The symbol of a New Age transformation in the perception of death? Suppose why Sirius got the speech about the "dead we love never leave us" speech in the movie? Ooh -- interesting interpretation! The Blacks-reigning-over-death idea might also explain Sirius' apparent fearlessness of it. He never seems all that concerned about his own death (though he cares deeply about the safety of others, namely all the Potters.) Much has been made of his cockiness in the Death Chamber, taunting Bella and all. Maybe the cockiness runs deeper than just his personality; death is so much a part of his ancestry that he has no fear of it.

And what to make of this: "Master, I am sorry, I knew not, I was fighting the Animagus Black!" sobbed Bellatrix, flinging herself down at Voldemort's feet as he paced slowly nearer. "Master, you should know --"

"Be quiet, Bella, " said Voldemort dangerously. "I shall deal with you in a moment. Do you think I have entered the Ministry of Magic to hear your sniveling apologies?"

"But Master -- he is here -- he is below --"I know, I know, everyone says the "he" who is below is DD...but when I read it, it sounds like she's referring to Sirius. I find the idea of Sirius being the "he" who is "below" very intriguing in this context. If Sirius has some unique connection to death, is the presence of Sirius in the death chamber somehow significant? What happens when the prince of death (or whatever he is) passes through the veil? Does he die? And if he dies, as the last in the line of the Blacks, what are the consequences? Again, if the "he" is Sirius, Bella seems quite concerned that Voldemort needs this information...

Even if the "he" is not Sirius, why did she bother telling Voldemort know she was fighting Sirius -- not Moody or Lupin or any other random Order member? It seems it would be enough for DL to know that she was in battle without having to identify who she was fighting. And why does she refer to him as the Animagus? :huh: I don't know, maybe Padfoot represents the church grim or something otherwise "good." If any of my conclusions about Sirius are near the mark, then freedom is a strong point between Harry and his godfather. They are both born to inescapable fates. For them, their choices are only about their integrity and influence on the people around them. But they themselves are trapped by destinies they may postpone, but cannot avoid. :agree: Very good! That also brings up my puzzlement over the whole Sirius vision thing again. Why did Voldemort choose that vision to draw Harry to the DoM? He could have just been torturing Sirius in the prophecy room, but instead he shows the vision saying "I cannot touch it...but you can." And Malfoy seems surprised Harry doesn't know more about prophecies -- if Voldemort thought Harry understood how prophecies work, Harry would know that Sirius couldn't pick up that prophecy. Makes me wonder if there isn't a prophecy regarding Sirius. Perhaps the death of Sirius is one of the obstacles that must be overcome before the final battle can occur (which *groan* brings me 'round to Voldemort's "one more obstacle/murder" quote in GoF...)

Dumbledore seems very eager to keep Sirius alive; moreso than Sirius himself. Maybe he was trying to postpone Sirius' destiny to allow Harry more time to prepare for his own. Did DD know Sirius was innocent of betraying the Potters? Did he leave him in Azkaban without a trial because he thought Sirius would be safer there, and that, as a Black, the dementors would be unlikely to hurt him? If Harry is indeed alive because he is Sirius' godson, what happens now that Sirius is gone?

To try to bring this back around to Snape: he may have played his role by making sure Sirius shows up at the DoM. Snape was the one who "requested that Sirius remain at headquarters to tell [DD] what happened." I can quite imagine how that conversation went... :rolleyes: (If there is a better place to discuss Sirius, please direct me -- I feel like I'm taking this all off on a tangent and there are many other facets of the supremacist theory worthy of discussing, but I'm finding the topic of "who is Sirius" very intriguing...)