Preparing Petunia

Discussion of The Burrow article Preparing Petunia (www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theburrow/meamcat01.shtml) by meamcat.

Discussion of The Burrow article Preparing Petunia (www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theburrow/meamcat01.shtml) by meamcat. Interesting theory.

Of course she knows a lot, it's just a natural consequence of being nosy (all throughout her life). So the real question is what to do with this:

Patti from Illinois:
Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students in the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather than as children? By the way, I loved meeting you, and hearing you speak, when you came to Anderson's in Naperville. I can hardly wait until you tour again.

J.K. Rowling:
Ahhh! I loved the event at Anderson's. It was one of my favorites. That is completely true. No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about.Took it from here (http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference/interviews/19990319_BarnesNoble.html#question34)

This prediction has not fulfilled yet although it was made even before CoS (the book CoS) came out. So let's begin to build a list of persons concerned. I'd put under #1 our dear old Petunia Dursley.

UPD: There are several earlier interviews and chats out there that may be interesting for those of us who, like myself, had joined the HP fandom just around the time 1st movie came out. Thanks for The Hogwarts Library (http://www.hogwarts-library.net/reference/interviews/) and Troels.

I'd put under #1 our dear old Petunia Dursley.
yes yes yes! I 100% agree! .. Although part of me wishes it was Filch... im sure he would be a far nicer person if he didnt resent the students for being witches and wizards!

What if it was Dudley?! Eeek! Although i doubt it because he would have certainly done something about the Dementors!

I'm not sure if Petunia is as nosy as we think. Frankly, her neighbours are all a potential danger to her and her family. From what was said in OotP at Harry's hearing (the presence of wizards and witches in Little Whinging has been carefully monitored because of "past events"), there may already have been some kind of danger from neighbours in the past. To break it down -

1. Muggle neighbours are a potential danger if they find out too much about magic. There's also the chance that a Muggle might be a pawn of someone who wants Harry dead.

2. If a neighbour is really a wizard or witch working for Harry's enemies, Petunia has to rely on Lily's protection. She can't fight wizards herself.

3. A wizard or witch who isn't an enemy could still inadvertantly endanger Harry, revealing his presence to enemies or getting him in a situation away from Lily's protection where he is more likely to encounter people who do want him dead.

Excellent points, Ellen.

What interests me is that Petunia recognizes Dumbledore's handwriting and voice when even Harry doesn't. She hasn't heard from him in 14 years (except for the one letter about the flying car). Harry has spent 10 months a year with him for the last four years and thinks about him constantly for the other 2 months. At Grimmauld Place, JKR again emphasizes that Harry doesn't recognize Dumbledore's handwriting even though he has seen it before. Yet Petunia does. To me this indicates that Dumbledore was in very frequent contact with Petunia during the first war and probably even spoke to her face to face on at least one occasion.

harpwench that could be true. We know that Harry saw DD's handwriting when he received the invisibility cloak. Harry has also spent a lot of time with DD and I think why he didn't recognize it is because he really hasn't seen DD very very upset. I think that Petunia has -- think about all the cajoling etc that would had to have happened in order to have Petunia take in her sister's son at great personal risk. I'm sure that DD can turn very nasty if trying to THREATEN her.

Meghana

Do we know that Lily and Petunia's parents were Muggles? For the pureblood crowd, anyone who comes from a line that's intermarried with Muggles is a Mudblood. I ask because Petunia says they're so proud that Lily's a witch. I don't know that Muggles would react that way; I don't get the impression that the Grangers do. They support Hermione and are dealing with it, but proud?

JKR has said that "last" means when Harry was left with the Dursleys and that there were obviously letters before that. The editorial says that Dd was preparing Petunia because he thought she'd end up with Harry. Did he? For one thing, was he so sure James and Lily were doomed? With the Fidelius Charm and everything? And that Harry would survive? I've stupidly lent out all the books, so I have no quotes, but I certainly got the impression that he sent Harry to the Dursleys because Lily died TO SAVE HIM, not just because she died. He talks about blood magic and deciding to put his faith in her blood. Why would he have been thinking along those lines before she died?

I wonder if those earlier letters were about something else. She may have been a Hogwarts student--he calls her "Petunia," sounding like they have some sort of relationship. And she may have some powers. That house of hers is really unnaturally clean.

I've been increasingly suspicious that Petunia is not really a Muggle. I had not seen the quote about the one person who comes into majic later, and had been thinking along the lines that Petunia as a girl was so driven by the desire to be seen as perfect and/or normal that when/if she received her letter about Hogwarts she refused to go. Have we learned who is the elder, Lily or Petunia? If Lily went first, and Petunia was so jealous of the attention given to her that she came to consider Lily a freak, if she received a letter herself wouldn't she have rejected becoming a "freak" herself? She could be an untrained witch. To my mind that would explain how she knows so much about the majic world, about Dementors, her relationship with Dumbledore, her antipathy toward Harry and majic in general. Psycologically, if Petunia were an untrained witch who had convinced herself that majic was something freakish to be avoided at all costs, her reactions to majic would be very understandable, and her knowledge and relationship with Dd as well.
Vernon and his feelings about being respectable (and what counts toward being respectable) could magnify Petunia's feelings as well.
I'm eager to see how this pans out.

This a very good editorial. It got the facts right. My take on this is that Petunia has had some first hand experience with the bad guys, or she wouldn't be quite so upset. If she had just heard stories about Voldemort and his evil deeds, she wouldn't react quite the same. I think JK is going to reveal just how much Petunia knows about the wizard world. After all, the Death Eaters were killing muggles just for fun, so maybe she had a friend or something killed by them.

I personally agree with the line that Petunia maybe a witch in denial. Not necessarily a former Hogwarts student, possible just a child that refused to ever go. Her reaction to me (Sister/sister relationship), emphasizes that she like many siblings that bicker is to be the complete opposite of the other sibling. I believe she is too extremely removed from the magical world, and that makes me suspicious that it was her choice to have this much denial/ignorance. She reminds me of a sibling who dealt with another sibling's drug problem (in this case Magic problem). Her view points are too extreme for her to have not been specially touched by that magical world in some personal way. Just as many siblings detest so whole heartedly anything to do with drugs that have dealt with family drug problems. This is going to be an interesting plot line as it pans out.

Is Aunt Petunia a Squib?

Good question. No, she is not, but—[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but—[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet.

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrebf.shtml

So, she is not a witch, either. She is a Muggle. However, this does make it seem that maybe she will be the one to develop powers late in life. A squib is a non magical person born to at least one magical parent. (miscellaneous section in the extras page on JKR website) So it's possible that maybe one of Lily and Petunia's grandparents or great grandparents may have been magical, which would explain why their parents were so proud of Lily being a witch. I really think Petunia is jealous. There may be more, but that is the main thing. She secretly absorbs all information from the magical world that she can get her hands on. I still think she gets the Daily Prophet, at least during the school year. Why else did she send Harry a Kleenex for Christmas in GOF? She had to have read that article.

One thing that I haven't yet seen discussed, and is brought to the forefront by this article, is when Harry was delivered to the Dursleys doorstep, Aunt Petunia screamed upon seeing him and then goes on to resent him for the rest of the time he is present in her home (and causes her son and husband to resent him too). It's plainly obvious that this is an unnatural level of dislike on Petunia's part, this is her nephew, after all, and being the kind of person Harry is, how could you really hate him?
Unless, Petunia-- somehow, some way, blames Harry for Lily's death? Through her correspondense with Dumbledore she most likely was made aware that Voldemort was after the Potters, maybe she also new something of the prophesy and the reason he was pursuing them? The reason being Harry. So at seeing this little baby at her front door, in that instant, Petunia realised a number of things all at once; that her sister was dead, this boy was the reason, and Voldemort obviously didn't get what he was looking for by killing Harry so he will most assuredly hunt him again, thus endangering her family. Not a nice way to be greeted.
Just maybe, when Petunia got all flustered and scared after the howler and learning of Voldemort's return, she actually realised she in some odd way actually cared for Harry?
But this is all just hindsight on my part, and doesn't really reveal anything about the future.


One other thing, Petunia IS a muggle: "Is Aunt Petunia a Squib?

JK Rowling: Good question. No, she is not, but—[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but—[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet."
--Read it at the official site here. (http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80)

SEVERE EDIT: Ack! MommaaLuna beat me to it! Cheers!

Wow, I have so much to say. There have been so many excellent posts in this thread that bring up excellent points that I would like to expound upon.

First of all, I thought this was an excellent article. It brought together quite a bit of information that we have been dealing with since the release of Book 5, and helped us to view things from a new perspective. Way to go meamcat!

The first thing that struck me, and the author even mentions it, is that Petunia doesn't mention Lily and James by name when explaining how she knew about dementors. And then, Harry even gives her the chance to specify by requesting that she call them by name, but she ignores him. For arguments' sake, sure we'll call the two in discussion Lily and James, but knowing JKR there is always the possibility that she was referring to two entirely different people."I heard--that awful boy--telling her about them--years ago," she said jerkily.
"If you mean my mum and dad, why don't you use their names?" said Harry loudly, but Aunt Petunia ignored him. She seemed horribly flustered.Just the way in which this scenario is written, it makes me think that there's something more to it.

Now, we know that Petunia is a muggle because JKR says this specifically at the Edinburgh Book Festival. Thank you Vilis Dommara for the quote about a character using magic later in life. I've heard quite a bit about that particular quote, but I've only ever seen it paraphrased. Seeing the actual quote brings new meaning (I think) to it, because I think it's been misinterpreted.Patti from Illinois:
Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students in the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather than as children? By the way, I loved meeting you, and hearing you speak, when you came to Anderson's in Naperville. I can hardly wait until you tour again.

J.K. Rowling:
Ahhh! I loved the event at Anderson's. It was one of my favorites. That is completely true. No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about.Every time I have seen an interpretation of this quote, it has been to say that a character in the books will come to be magical later in life. This is used to argue that Petunia is a witch and she just doesn't know it, or that she rejected being a witch as a child and will come to accept it later in life. But we have it firsthand from JKR that Petunia is a muggle and not a witch. We know she is not a squib either. But is it possible that JKR was stating that one of the characters won't necessarily become a magical person later in life, but will just be able to use magic in desperate circumstances - perhaps Petunia trying to protect Harry in a time of need? I believe her use of the word manage shows that this character is a non-magic person who, under normal circumstances, is not capable of magic. Does this make sense to anyone else?

JKR has said that "last" means when Harry was left with the Dursleys and that there were obviously letters before that. The editorial says that Dd was preparing Petunia because he thought she'd end up with Harry. Did he? For one thing, was he so sure James and Lily were doomed? With the Fidelius Charm and everything? And that Harry would survive? I've stupidly lent out all the books, so I have no quotes, but I certainly got the impression that he sent Harry to the Dursleys because Lily died TO SAVE HIM, not just because she died. He talks about blood magic and deciding to put his faith in her blood. Why would he have been thinking along those lines before she died?I believe that Dumbledore knew there was a chance that Harry would end up with the Dursleys, and so the author is probably right in guessing that Dumbledore's letters (or at least some of them) were in preparation for what would come if Lily and James were killed. I have come to believe that because the prophecy could have been speaking about two different boys (Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom) up to the time that Voldemort marked Harry in Godric's Hollow that fateful Halloween night, Dumbledore probably prepared the families of both those boys for what was necessary were either of the children to be attacked. This includes: 1) The Fidelius charm for both families (the Longbottoms were attacked after Voldemort's downfall and so the charm could have been removed if the danger was thought to have been gone); 2) An explanation of how blood magic could protect the children (both Lily and James Potter and Frank and Alice Longbottom would have been aware of the consequences of this; I do not believe that Lily died to save her son as a last-ditch effort; I believe she knew of the protection she would be providing beforehand). This would mean that either Frank or Alice would probably have been prepared to do the same for their own son if it became necessary (notice that Neville lives with his grandmother, also a blood relative, similar to Harry's situation); 3) Letters written to extended family to prepare them for the worst. This would mean (as Neville lives with his grandmother) that Mrs. Longbottom probably received similar letters to the ones that Petunia received.

Was that long enough for you? Well, if you'll believe it, I have one more thing to mention, and now that I've thought of it, I feel that it is a rather exciting prospect.What interests me is that Petunia recognizes Dumbledore's handwriting and voice when even Harry doesn't. She hasn't heard from him in 14 years (except for the one letter about the flying car). Harry has spent 10 months a year with him for the last four years and thinks about him constantly for the other 2 months. At Grimmauld Place, JKR again emphasizes that Harry doesn't recognize Dumbledore's handwriting even though he has seen it before. Yet Petunia does. To me this indicates that Dumbledore was in very frequent contact with Petunia during the first war and probably even spoke to her face to face on at least one occasion.I believe this is a very excellent point to mention, and it got me rather excited because everything you said made perfect sense, although I will take it one step further. I believe that Petunia recognizes Dumbledore's handwriting immediately not only because he wrote to her frequently and they made a fearful impression, but I believe that she still has them and still reads them from time to time. This also leads me to believe that we will see at least one of them in a future book, hopefully his last letter because it has been mentioned several times in the series. If the author is correct about what that letter included (and I hope that they are) it would make sense that we would be able to see it, because it would provide the backstory to several items that we have been longing for more information about, and that we have been promised to receive (namely what happened in Godric's Hollow and a further explanation of the blood bond and prophecy.Here is a list of speculated things that Dumbledore told Petunia about, to be clear (I would say there were at least five letters sent to Petunia at specific points in time):

Letters before the Potters’ death outline:
-Reason for letter
-The war’s current events
-Explanation of terror caused by Voldemort
-What may happen because of these events, etc.
His "last" left with Harry outline:
-What happened to Lily and James
-Explanation of the blood bond/prophecy
-What would happen if Harry died (reminder of Voldemort’s power)
-Formal request (for Petunia to take Harry in)
Well, that was long, and I hope those of you who finished reading the whole thing got something out of it. Please let me know what you think!

Hi All,

I have just joined the forum but I have been lurking for a while. This essay is the one that finally got me to post here.

I would like to add another little twist to this entire discussion. On Ms. Rowling's home site in the FAQ section there is a question asked about why Harry is considered a half-blood. Ms. Rowling says that it is because of Lily's Grandmother, thus indicating that it was Lily's grandmother who was the Muggle, not her mother and probably not her father either. That would mean that Lily's and Pertunia's mother would have been a witch. If Pertunia's mother was a witch then Pertunia would either have to be a Squib, which Ms. Rowling says she is not, or she would have to be a witch, again something that Ms. Rowling says she is not. So which one is it?

If we look at the Squib quote we see something very interesting. We see that Pertunia is not a Squib, is a Muggle, but maybe not quite the same as a regular Muggle.

One possibility is that Ms. Rowling mispoke in her FAQ post and really meant to say Harry's grandmother, or something else is going on.

I have a question. If a witch turns her back on the Wizarding world, say denouncing it, what does she become to the rest of the Wizarding World? Does she become a Muggle? Assuming all the things list above are true, and Ms. Rowling did not mis-speak in her FAQ, then this is the only solution I can come up with.

Another little question coming out of this one is as follows. If a Witch, or Wizard, denounces the Wizarding World, do they let her keep her power, or do they have some way to take it away from her? If they can take it from her then she truly would be a non-magical person, i.e. a Muggle. This could be the solution to Ms. Rowling's other quote about a non-magical person being able to do magic in an extraordinary situation. Pertunia is not suppose to be able to do magic any more, but some severe danger faces her and her family, or just possibly Harry, and in that extreme circumstance she is able to regain her power unexpectedly and perform some kind of charm or whatever that is able to save everybody.

What do you all think?

Regards,

Timothy Pintello

I think there is alot more to Petunia then we know. She is not a squib, JKR clearly stated, but there is something about her that she would never tell anyone. I think Dumbledore found out about this and made a pact with her that said "take Harry in and I will keep your secret" or something like that, so maybe in his last letter to her he threatened to spill on her i she didn't take and keep Harry. He has control over her just like Hermione does over Rita Skeeter.

I have never heard or read an interveiw about anyone asking J.K Rowling about Petunia being a Wizard (If There is I'm Sorry, send an owl or post it up later!!) and I think that everybody is asking the wrong questions. (Is Petunia a Squib?) Why can't we just ask the question that we all fret about :Is Petunia a Witch?
We already know that she is NOT a Squib. I have to agree with the Theory about Petunia Denying the Fact or not wanting to be a Witch.
I have To Agree with Rosiebirdy too. Dumbledore might be controlling Petunia. ( But I don't thimk he would do that,would he?)

Have we learned who is the elder, Lily or Petunia?

As far as I know, JKR has never said. However, I think it's likely that Petunia is older, for two reasons. First, Harry and Dudley are the same age (they started secondary school at the same time). Since Lily was 20 or 21 when she had Harry, if Petunia were younger she would have had Dudley at 18 or 19. This is, of course, possible. However, note that Vernon was already a director at Grunnings when PS/SS opened. This is unlikely for a man in his early 20's just out of school. I think he must have been at least 30 or thereabouts when Dudley (and Harry) were born. Again, it is possible that Petunia married a man 12 years older than herself and had a kid before age 20; I just think it's more likely that she is older than Lily by several years. At the moment I'm too tired to speculate on how this relates to her reaction to having a witch sister.

I believe that Petunia recognizes Dumbledore's handwriting immediately not only because he wrote to her frequently and they made a fearful impression, but I believe that she still has them and still reads them from time to time. This also leads me to believe that we will see at least one of them in a future book, hopefully his last letter because it has been mentioned several times in the series.

Yeah!

Another thing I've just remembered-- on November 1, 1981, the day after Godric's Hollow, an owl fluttered past the Dursleys' window. So was this owl on the way to Mrs. Figg, or was it waiting for Vernon to leave so it could make a delivery to Petunia? I think, without evidence, that it was the latter-- Dumbledore is already contacting Petunia to let her know about Lily and James. He may not have worked out exactly what he was going to do yet, hence Petunia's shock at finding Harry on her doorstep the next morning.

I would like to add another little twist to this entire discussion. On Ms. Rowling's home site in the FAQ section there is a question asked about why Harry is considered a half-blood. Ms. Rowling says that it is because of Lily's Grandmother, thus indicating that it was Lily's grandmother who was the Muggle, not her mother and probably not her father either. That would mean that Lily's and Pertunia's mother would have been a witch. If Pertunia's mother was a witch then Pertunia would either have to be a Squib, which Ms. Rowling says she is not, or she would have to be a witch, again something that Ms. Rowling says she is not. So which one is it?
This is an easy one to answer. Lily's grandmother is a witch. That makes Harry a half-blood and Lily's parents and Petunia a muggle.

I think that we have to take everything that is on JK Rowlings website as accurate, otherwise, we might as well throw all the rules out the window and say anything we want.

Interesting theory, I also believe that dumbledore had been in contact with Petunia before he left Harry with them. But I also think that maybe she had some first hand knowledge of what Voldemort can do. She is harry's only remaining relative, that is what is interseting to me. Maybe deatheaters went after the families of muggle-born witches and wizards during the last war, trying to get them to quit magic or to kill them off. Now JKR has never told us what happened to Petunia's parents (Harry's grandparents) could they have been attacked and killed because of Lilly. If so Dumbledore could have wrote that as long as Harry lives in the home she and her family are also protected by the blood magic. Sort of a take him in and live, dont take him and your on your own.

kwlmagic

thank you thank you THANK YOU!!!

It has always intensely annoyed me how persistantly people cling to the notions that various Dursleys are anything more than muggles; this essay is EXACTLY what I would have written had I the time and inclination to have responded to the topic.

HURRAH!

in regards to the board discussion:
Additionally, I've interpreted his "half-bloodedness" as his maternal grandparents both being Muggles, and paternal ones both being Wizards...it takes four wizarding grandparents to make a pureblood (according to dumbledore and jo), and dozens upon dozens of wizard great-great-great-greats-etc., to make a pureblood according to the Toujours Pur crew.

Also, on Jo's site when she answered the "Dumbledore's Last" FAQuestion, she distinctly said: "Why did he say my last letter? Why, obviously because there were letters before that……both Dumbledore and I differentiate between letters sent to the Dursleys as a couple, and messages directed to Petunia ALONE. "

What an interesting article and follow-ups! I'm intrigued especially by the mention of the Kleenex in one of the earlier replies - I had never picked up on that, but it certainly does sound as though Petunia had read Ms. Skeeter's piece. I'm inclined to believe that Petunia does have some latent powers. I'm not sure that you would really be considered a witch in the wizarding world if you weren't a part of that world and weren't trained, even if you had been born with some low level of power. I wonder if the issue between Petunia and Lily was one of "sour grapes", with the weaker sister deciding to completely reject the magical world that the other sister was obviously more adept at. That might be close enough to Muggle status to be considered "a Muggle, but..." by wizarding standards. Now I'm wondering what the "desperate circumstances" are in which Petunia tries magic? We've already been told by JKR that Harry will leave Privet Drive early in HBP, and for a "pleasant" reason, according to JKR's website. That doesn't sound as though it would be due to an attack on Petunia, but who knows?

Hi Again,

CaE, following is the quote from Ms. Rowling's Offical Website FAQ where she give the grandmother information.

Section: F.A.Q.
Why are some people in the wizarding world (e.g., Harry) called 'half-blood' even though both their parents were magical?

The expressions 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' have been coined by people to whom these distinctions matter, and express their originators' prejudices. As far as somebody like Lucius Malfoy is concerned, for instance, a Muggle-born is as 'bad' as a Muggle. Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his mother's grandparents.

If you think this is far-fetched, look at some of the real charts the Nazis used to show what constituted 'Aryan' or 'Jewish' blood. I saw one in the Holocaust Museum in Washington when I had already devised the 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' definitions, and was chilled to see that the Nazis used precisely the same warped logic as the Death Eaters. A single Jewish grandparent 'polluted' the blood, according to their propaganda.

The red text is the important part.

SusanBones111,

Actually if Lily's grandmother was a Muggle and her mother was a witch then Petunia would be a Squib, which Ms. Rowling says she most definitely is not. If on the other hand Lily's grandmother was a witch and her daughter had no magical ability, then Lily's mother would be the one who is the squib. I am not sure what the child of a squib who also had no magical ability would be called. Maybe then they would be considered a Muggle. I don't know.

MommaaLuna,

That observation about the kleenex was really great. I never made that connection before.

Regards,

Timothy Pintello

However, if Lily and Petunia's mother was a squib, then why would Snape call Lily a Mud-blood?

Oh, wow! Thanks, guys.

Just to re-state... Petunia is neither witch nor squib, as many people have quoted JKR on this: she is a muggle.

That Kleenex comment was very insightful, as well as the idea that Petunia recognized DD's handwriting. Ooh.

This was fun to read! I'll comment on more of these posts later. Bedtime awaits.

Actually if Lily's grandmother was a Muggle and her mother was a witch then Petunia would be a Squib, which Ms. Rowling says she most definitely is not. If on the other hand Lily's grandmother was a witch and her daughter had no magical ability, then Lily's mother would be the one who is the squib. I am not sure what the child of a squib who also had no magical ability would be called. Maybe then they would be considered a Muggle. I don't know.Someone please find the quote for me that defines a squib. I do not have my books (I'm awaiting my new paperbacks next week) and I can't think where to start if it's not there. I don't think it's on JKR's site. Anyway, my thought is (if I'm remembering correctly) that if Harry is considered a half-blood because of his mother's grandparents, then perhaps one or both of them were squibs. Here's the logic: Lily's great-grandparents are wizards; they have a squib who then marries either a muggle or another squib; so their child (Lily's grandmother or grandfather) is a squib either married to a muggle or a squib; from this point on, Lily's mother or father (we don't know which line this is) is considered a muggle (not a squib because, if I'm remembering correctly, a squib is only a non-magic person born to magic persons, not a non-magic person born to a magical line) because his/her parents were both non-magic (one a squib, one a muggle, or both squibs). So, Lily is then born to muggles, and she is considered a mud-blood. Harry is born to a muggleborn and a pure-blood (it is widely believed that James was a pure-blood and I won't argue either way here) and he is considered a half-blood. Make sense?

Another thing I've just remembered-- on November 1, 1981, the day after Godric's Hollow, an owl fluttered past the Dursleys' window. So was this owl on the way to Mrs. Figg, or was it waiting for Vernon to leave so it could make a delivery to Petunia? I think, without evidence, that it was the latter-- Dumbledore is already contacting Petunia to let her know about Lily and James. He may not have worked out exactly what he was going to do yet, hence Petunia's shock at finding Harry on her doorstep the next morning.I also thought about this possibility the last time I read the beginning of PS/SS. I had never come to a conclusion as to who it was to, but I don't think it was Dumbledore's letter because he delivered that one personally when he placed Harry on the Dursley's doorstep. However, Mrs. Figg is a good possibility for the recipient.

Duh...I just got what you were saying...it wasn't Dumbledore's LAST letter the owl would have been carrying, but another one specifically for Petunia? I like that idea and I actually think it could work. And considering Petunia's reaction to Vernon asking what Lily and James' son's name was, it would make sense that she was extra-tense because she would 1) know that something had happened to Lily and James from the letter and 2) be afraid that Vernon had somehow discovered that she was corresponding with Dumbledore behind his back. Oh, the possibilities!

I think that everybody is asking the wrong questions. (Is Petunia a Squib?) Why can't we just ask the question that we all fret about :Is Petunia a Witch?We already know that she is not a witch because JKR not only stated that she was not a squib, but she also stated (in the same sentence, I believe) that she is a muggle.

I know people are wondering whether or not a person who is magical and then rejects the magical world is considered a muggle. I cannot answer that question, as no one but JKR can answer it because she has given us no rules to go by.

But consider this: if Petunia was a magical person who rejected magic and never learned to practice it, that lends to some strange conclusions. Who else do we know in the series that never completed school? Hagrid! Is he considered a wizard? I don't think so, but I also don't think that he's considered a muggle because he insults Vernon Dursley using that term. Why would Hagrid call Vernon Dursley a muggle to insult him, if Hagrid was one himself?

Off the top of my head, that's the only similar case I can think of that would lend some answers to the kind of questions that are being asked. Does it settle the matter? Of course not, but at least it's better than nothing.

But consider this: if Petunia was a magical person who rejected magic and never learned to practice it, that lends to some strange conclusions. Who else do we know in the series that never completed school? Hagrid! Is he considered a wizard? I don't think so, but I also don't think that he's considered a muggle because he insults Vernon Dursley using that term. Why would Hagrid call Vernon Dursley a muggle to insult him, if Hagrid was one himself?

I'm not sure what the implications would be for Petunia, what powers she would retain. But I just want to point out that there may be a difference between voluntarily rejecting powers and having your wand snapped.

I'm not sure what the implications would be for Petunia, what powers she would retain. But I just want to point out that there may be a difference between voluntarily rejecting powers and having your wand snapped.

I think that is a valid point. It appears, (completely speculation here, since we have no hard and fast JKR rules to go on here) that wizards/witches that completely reject magic would be called muggles for all practical purposes. I mean, who in the magical world would have any clue that Petunia was more than a muggle if she never attended school in the first place. The answer, no one but Dumbledore, who could have known because of his position at Hogwarts. Not one other person would have any idea, that is no one that is living (Obviously Lily would know). This would make JKR's statement about Petunia not being a squib true and the fact that Lily's parents probably were both magical (though we don't really know). This would also serve as strong reasoning as to how she was able to do magic under diress (though we have no confirmation that it is she that will do this. Great discussion so far, finally got me to sign up and post.

I liked the article alot. To me, there was nothing new SINCE I was was thinking the same things. But, it was really great that people were thinking the same thing :)

simplybecky stated:
But is it possible that JKR was stating that one of the characters won't necessarily become a magical person later in life, but will just be able to use magic in desperate circumstances - perhaps Petunia trying to protect Harry in a time of need? I believe her use of the word manage shows that this character is a non-magic person who, under normal circumstances, is not capable of magic. Does this make sense to anyone else?

I totally agree with this statement. It definitely is a very good possibility. What if Petunia gets to hold HP's wand?

simplybecky also stated:
(notice that Neville lives with his grandmother, also a blood relative, similar to Harry's situation); 3) Letters written to extended family to prepare them for the worst. This would mean (as Neville lives with his grandmother) that Mrs. Longbottom probably received similar letters to the ones that Petunia received.
Agree. Though, since Neville is a pure-blooded wizard, that means Mrs. L is a witch so the amount of letters might be fewer since DD doesn't have to explain the wizarding world to her :)

About the LAST letter -- I have a QUESTION. From the conversation between V. Dursley and Hagrid at the Hut on the Rock, it seems that V knows that it IS Dumbledore who wrote the letter AND it also seems that he did READ the letter. I don't think it mentioned it in the book, to whom the letter was addressed. However, after seeing PS/SS a few times on TV (esp. after the PS. on the FAQ Poll Answer), we get a glimpse of that letter and I SQUARE that it was addressed to MR. & MRS. V. Dursley -- it for sure said V. Dursley.

Can anyone verify this for me?

I, for the most part, agree with harpwench:
But I just want to point out that there may be a difference between voluntarily rejecting powers and having your wand snapped.

Though wouldn't it be voluntarily rejecting to ATTEND HOGWARTS? They can't really take away your magical ability -- that would be like changing your DNA or something similar. You might be a witch/wizard, but you can choose to be trained or not. Also, how can they snap your wand if you don't decide to attend Hogwarts and therefore never get a wand? Though it would be nice to know who is trained or not, maybe there is a list of ppl at MoM -- you want to keep an eye on those people - what if they do some real damage?

I, like harpwench, think that Petunia is the elder. If Lily's parents were pleased/proud that Lily is a witch, then they would have been if Petunia had been as well. Because of Petunia's comment, I don't think that Petunia got the opportunity to go (IMO).

I also liked the statement that simplybecky had about Petunia still re-reading DD's letters. I also think that she might have taken a page from Mad-Eye - CONSTANT VIGILANCE! That she is extremely nosy makes me believe that she is suspicious of people around her even in the neighborhood. I was recently thinking about WHY the Dursely's didn't leave Harry with a babysitter (she only has a couple of ppl in mind) on Dudley's birthday. And we have a reason, she doesn't trust her neighbors fully -- they might be wizards in disguise trying to get to Harry and therefore the house.

Meghana

Here is a thought. What if both Dumbledore AND Lilly were in contact with Petunia during the first war? Doesn't make sense that Lilly would probably be the first person to contact Petunia about the potential danger that they were in?

Interesting. In reading your info, the prophecy and the exerpts from the books in one place, I had another thought occur to me. What if part of marking Harry as his equal included making him an Orphan? I don't know where I'm going with this at this point but it popped into my head so I had to share it. I really think Tom Riddle would have been a different person if he hadn't have been an Orphan, but the way his plight effected him (if it really did) is a complete opposite of the way it appears to have effected Harry. Since Riddle/Voldy seems mad at the world and with an agenda and Harry is always trying to do right by the world or at least stay out of trouble as he sees it.

Interesting. In reading your info, the prophecy and the exerpts from the books in one place, I had another thought occur to me. What if part of marking Harry as his equal included making him an Orphan? I don't know where I'm going with this at this point but it popped into my head so I had to share it. I really think Tom Riddle would have been a different person if he hadn't have been an Orphan, but the way his plight effected him (if it really did) is a complete opposite of the way it appears to have effected Harry. Since Riddle/Voldy seems mad at the world and with an agenda and Harry is always trying to do right by the world or at least stay out of trouble as he sees it.You are absolutely right and it makes perfect sense. I have been researching this subject for awhile, and this is one of the conclusions I came to as well. I believe, in fact, that there are several ways in which Voldemort marked Harry as his equal. This is one of them. They were placed in equal positions in life and given the chance for equal outcomes, yet ended up very different from one another. Once again, another way JKR has emphasized that it is your choices that truly make you who you are.

I feel a large part of her choice to allow Harry to stay is that Dursleys are also protected by Harry's Mother. As long as he lives there even if just one day a year, the house is protected, thus protecting the Dursleys as well.

Can you turn down a Hogwart's letter? I can't imagine they force you to go to Hogwarts. What if Petunia recieved a letter, and turned it down? I know none of us could imagine that, but some people may not think its right or "abnormal" & choose to stay in muggle life.Well, skimming probably didn't do you any good because I think that's been brought up a fair amount of times, but that's okay, because there's always someone who will try to find an answer if only you ask.

Yes, it is possible to turn down a Hogwarts letter. JKR answered this recently on her site in the F.A.Q. section "About the Books." Here it is:"Do all young people in Britain's Wizarding World go to Hogwarts? For example, did Stand Shunpike attend Hogwarts? Or is Hogwarts just as school for those who are particularly good at magic while others go into trades without formal schooling?" [Mugglenet/Lexicon Question]

"Everyone who shows magical ability before their eleventh birthday will automatically gain a place at Hogwarts; there is no question of not being 'magical enough'; you are either magical or you are not. There is no obligation to take up the place, however; a family might not want their child to attend Hogwarts. On a related note, I have added some information on Squibs in the 'Extras' Section (Miscellaneous).

(emphasis added)Completely unrelated to your question, I just had to laugh:( Remeber the Creevy brothers, & J.K. has said Magic is dominate, meaning once it shows up it will keep appearing.) Could it be that she know so much, because she had the chance & turned it down?Because you mentioned JK right before you wrote "she" I automatically assumed that's who you were talking about. So, for a second there, I thought you were asking if JKR got a Hogwarts Letter and then turned it down. It took me a second to figure out what you were really asking. I was thinking "Wow, this person is getting way into this! Don't they realize there's really no Hogwarts?" Just had to laugh at myself...maybe I'm the one that's getting too into this :lol:

I don't think Riddle's father ever had anything to do with him--he deserted Riddle's mother before she gave birth, IIRC--but actually Tom's not an orphan until he kills his father sometime in his teens.

I don't think Riddle's father ever had anything to do with him--he deserted Riddle's mother before she gave birth, IIRC--but actually Tom's not an orphan until he kills his father sometime in his teens.Okay, that's a technicality, but considering Tom Riddle grew up in an orphanage, I'd say the observation applies to this case rather well.

I'm not sure if Petunia is as nosy as we think. Frankly, her neighbours are all a potential danger to her and her family. From what was said in OotP at Harry's hearing (the presence of wizards and witches in Little Whinging has been carefully monitored because of "past events"), there may already have been some kind of danger from neighbours in the past.I agree with the logic behind this argument, but we have to remember that Petunia was described as nosy even before she became baby Harry's surrogate mother. I believe the first page of PS/SS talks about Vernon hardly having any neck, but Petunia have nearly twice the size of a normal neck which came in handy for spying on the neighbors.

Now, if Petunia was being given information about the Potter's situation before Harry came to live with her, then it would make sense that she had reason to be suspicious and therefore kept a watchful eye. Every little piece of information counts here.

Sorry--double post!

On the issue of Petunia and what she knows and how: According to JKR, Squibs are extremely rare as the magical gene is dominant and very resilient (jkrowling.com, Extras/Miscellaneous). By definition, a Squib is a non-magical person born of at least one magical parent. Here’s the problem: if the magical gene is dominant, then it will be expressed when paired with a recessive non-magical gene. How then is it possible for a magical person to be born from a non-magical couple? It cannot be so! (except see below) By definition, a non-magical child of magical parents is a squib. By definition, a squib does not possess the dominant magical gene(s). Where then does the genetic material come from to generate a magical child from a non-magical couple? Sure, spontaneous mutation could be entered into the equation – but we have already met too many muggle born magic folk for this mechanism to be logical. So … I propose instead that the genetics of magic must be multi-alleled (i.e. more than one gene is responsible). That some (from the numbers we have been introduced to, perhaps many! Or even most) non-magical folk possess some of the alleles, but not enough or the correct combinations to be recognized as magical. Consider it a threshold. Perhaps all people have some ‘magical’ abilities, but only those that reach a certain detectable level would be recognized by the birth registry quill. Therefore, a magical child is born to non-magical folk when the combination of alleles from both parents allows adequate expression of the magical phenotype. It would be somewhat like the inheritance patterns of hair colour or eye colour. So … Petunia may very well be no ordinary muggle. According to genetic inheritance patterns, she is likely to possess considerable amount of magical genetic material. She may even have some rudimentary magical abilities (accordingly, all muggles may have some weak magical abilities – this would presumably exist on a continuum. For example, Neville is pure blood, but is obviously of lesser ability than Hermione.). It might be that these lesser abilities were recognized, by perhaps Dumbledore. (Wild speculation) Or perhaps she was even given a place at Hogwarts, but the magical genetic endowment was just sufficient to alert the quill without being adequate for her to succeed at Hogwarts. She might have dropped out from frustration or failed out from poor performance. When Lily then follows her (I agree with the argument that Lily is likely the younger sibling), performs brilliantly and graduates a witch the parents are proud (remember, there must be a family history of magic… according to genetics) and Petunia resentful. Petunia may also have left behind the wizarding world at the start of the war fearing for her life, being a mud-blood/muggle, of limited abilities and the sister of Lily Potter. Upon entry (re-entry) to the muggle world she obsesses with her privacy because she is always looking over her shoulder. She puts on a front of loathing magic and bringing Vernon to the same belief. All of this in an effort to isolate herself from a life that was frustrating and surrounding herself in an artificially created perfect world – destroyed the day Harry showed up on her doorstep. The threat that Dumbledore may have raised with her in the letters need not be physical in nature, but rather one of exposure… blackmail. Imagine Vernon’s reaction if he found out she was a witch (or at least magical). We were already told how shocking it was for Seamus’ dad to find out he had married a witch (perhaps another fleeing the magical world war to a ‘safer’ life in the muggle world). JKR states in an interview (Edinburgh) that “Petunia is a muggle, but …”. She also states that “… there is a little bit more to aunt Petunia than meets the eye…”. And that “She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess.” The answers lie in genetics.

So … I propose instead that the genetics of magic must be multi-alleled (i.e. more than one gene is responsible). That some (from the numbers we have been introduced to, perhaps many! Or even most) non-magical folk possess some of the alleles, but not enough or the correct combinations to be recognized as magical. Consider it a threshold. Perhaps all people have some ‘magical’ abilities, but only those that reach a certain detectable level would be recognized by the birth registry quill. Therefore, a magical child is born to non-magical folk when the combination of alleles from both parents allows adequate expression of the magical phenotype. It would be somewhat like the inheritance patterns of hair colour or eye colour.Well, that is very interesting indeed. I have seen many questions raised as to how someone could be born to non-magical parents if the trait is dominant. I also think that it is in the genes, and the argument you have provided is the best one I have seen yet. While I'm not necessarily certain about Petunia having gone to Hogwarts or ever receiving a letter (and I quite don't like the suggestion that Dumbledore has threatened Petunia - he has always seemed much more reasonable than that), I think that the argument you have provided for the rest is a very good one. Interestingly, if there are different types of alleles (I don't know genetics very well, so if I screw this up, please forgive me) and different combinations, this might explain why some are apt to be more talented than others at magic (similar to the way some people are more apt to excel in athletics, etc.), and in particular, it might explain their specific talents. Is there a different allele combination for being particularly good at charms (like Lily Potter)? Is this the reason the wand chooses the wizard? You have made an excellent argument, and I very much like where it could lead us.

I agree that there are simply too many Muggle-borns for magic to be a dominant allele. In another thread I hypothesized that JKR just made a mistake on the genetics and magic is acutally a simple autosomal recessive trait, Squibs being the rare mutations. I was trying to keep it simple and not get into multiple alleles (not to mention nature-nurture), but that hypothesis does make sense given that someone we have always thought of as a Muggle will "manage" to perform magic. This person (and I agree with the speculation that it's Petunia) will obviously have had some latent ability all her life, so the idea that Petunia is very close to the threshold for having the magic phenotype makes a lot of sense. Some alleles may even confer more magical ability than others, which would explain Neville and Hermione. In any case, I think Jo needs to brush up on Biology 101. And maybe I need to stop taking it so seriously.:lol:

The threat that Dumbledore may have raised with her in the letters need not be physical in nature, but rather one of exposure… blackmail.
I don't really see Dumbledore as a blackmailer. I think the threat Petunia felt was simply the danger of Voldemort. She is, as far as we know, a Muggle; she has a witch sister; and that sister happens to be the mother of one who may vanquish Voldemort. These facts are enough to make Petunia feel like a target given what she appears to know about the war. I can see how that would make her wish to avoid the wizarding world as much as possible.

trotter says:
I feel a large part of her choice to allow Harry to stay is that Dursleys are also protected by Harry's Mother. As long as he lives there even if just one day a year, the house is protected, thus protecting the Dursleys as well.
I've seen this statement elsewhere too, but I disagree with it. I don't have the books with me right now, but I'm pretty sure the protection is only on Harry. I don't remember Dumbledore saying the charm was on any of the other Evanses (Petunia, Dudley, or the house).

I've seen this statement elsewhere too, but I disagree with it. I don't have the books with me right now, but I'm pretty sure the protection is only on Harry. I don't remember Dumbledore saying the charm was on any of the other Evanses (Petunia, Dudley, or the house).I don't know. I think the argument really could go either way. Is the blood protection that Lily left available to Petunia and Dudley? I think not. But what about the charm of ancient magic that Dumbledore performed on Harry (which was sealed by Petunia) when he left him at the Dursleys'?

I'm not saying that they are protected, but I don't know that we can say it's not true just because Dumbledore never said anything about it. There are a lot of things Dumbledore still hasn't revealed (and many more he will never reveal - we can be sure of that).

Someone, please show me an argument either way, because both are pretty even-footed. I don't see evidence for or against either one.

I don't know. I think the argument really could go either way. Is the blood protection that Lily left available to Petunia and Dudley? I think not. But what about the charm of ancient magic that Dumbledore performed on Harry (which was sealed by Petunia) when he left him at the Dursleys'?

I'm not saying that they are protected, but I don't know that we can say it's not true just because Dumbledore never said anything about it. There are a lot of things Dumbledore still hasn't revealed (and many more he will never reveal - we can be sure of that).

Someone, please show me an argument either way, because both are pretty even-footed. I don't see evidence for or against either one.
The reason I think only Harry is protected is that he is the one Lily died for. I seem to recall Dumbledore saying something to the effect that that was what gave him the idea for the blood charm. I realize that still doesn't prove that he couldn't have done it on Petunia and Dudley too, but I definitely got the impression that a family member dying for you was a necessary part of the charm. I'd be happy to entertain arguments to the contrary.

Several things: 1) I don't see how Lily's dying for Harry could possibly protect Petunia and Dudley; it is rather their having his mother's blood that protects him. However, I think Dd must have put a protection spell of his own on them (and, probably, on Vernon), otherwise it would be too easy for Voldemort to kill them and then Harry would be vulnerable. He has no more relatives to go to.

2) I also have the impression that it was the fact that Lily died to save Harry that gave Dumbledore the idea of using the blood magic to preserve him. This is why he sent him to the Dursleys. That's why I'm confused by the earlier letters he sent Petunia--the ones before "my last"--because if this is true he wouldn't have been planning all along to send Harry there if he were orphaned. (Dd also says at some point that he wanted Harry raised by Muggles because his having somehow stopped Voldemort would make him such a celebrity in the wizarding world. I just don't have the impression that Dd's knowledge of the future is that specific.) I do think Petunia may have attended Hogwarts at some point; I think she and Dumbledore have some sort of relationship that didn't begin because she was Lily's sister.

3) Really stupid question: My 9th-grade biology teacher spent two weeks on genetics, and that's the extent of my knowledge. And I am waaaaaay out of 9th grade now. But what happens if both parents contribute a recessive gene to the mix? Doesn't that mean that the child will have that characteristic? I'm thinking that's how hemophilia spread in Queen Victoria's descendents; there was enough intermarriage that a lot of them had the recessive. Somebody please enlighten me! There's been enough wizard/Muggle pairings by now that quite a few Muggles would have the recessive gene for magic.

I was thinking about magical abilities being a gene or a trait, but I forgot about the traits that are made up of mutiple genes -multi-alleled (I had biology ages ago). Good catch DrJ.

I was thinking of liking it to a carrier of a disease. They don't have the disease, but they could pass it on to their children. If both parents have it (they both are carriers), the child could have the disease.

It's possible that this is what happened with Petunia. She could be a carrier.

BTW, did anyone check who the letter was addressed to in the movie?

Meghana

I don't think Riddle's father ever had anything to do with him--he deserted Riddle's mother before she gave birth, IIRC--but actually Tom's not an orphan until he kills his father sometime in his teens.
I realize that Tom wasn't really an orphan until he killed his father when he was a teenager, but I don't recall ever reading if he knew all along when he was in the ORPHANAGE that he really did have a father or if the staff either told him when he was older or he snooped around and found out...hey he found the Chamber of Secrets maybe he snooped around the orphanage too. I was adopted by my grandparents and still knew my parents they are alive but never could have been good parents they were too selfish I was always happy that I didn't have to live with them. But I hear stories all the time where kids learn they were adopted later and they get really upset with their birth parents. I could even be an contributing factor to Tom's transformation the anger and hatred towards his rich father who could have given him a better childhood but turned his back on the mother. Maybe Riddle even confronted him and that's how he got the information he had? Maybe we will know the answers to these questions by the time we read the last page of book 7 :cool: we can hope so at least.

I wonder if that Lily and Petunia had the same father. What if Lily's father was a wizard, but due to the dangers of Voldemort's actions he left his muggle wife and kept his child a secret. His wife then remarried and had Petunia. That would make Petunia a muggle and Lily a half-blood, (but if her step-father adopted her, everyone would assume she was a muggle). The wizard would then keep in contact by letter and pay the occasional visit. Maybe then it could be Dumbledore. This would also explain his auburn hair and liking of sherbert lemons!

3) Really stupid question: My 9th-grade biology teacher spent two weeks on genetics, and that's the extent of my knowledge. And I am waaaaaay out of 9th grade now. But what happens if both parents contribute a recessive gene to the mix? Doesn't that mean that the child will have that characteristic? I'm thinking that's how hemophilia spread in Queen Victoria's descendents; there was enough intermarriage that a lot of them had the recessive. Somebody please enlighten me! There's been enough wizard/Muggle pairings by now that quite a few Muggles would have the recessive gene for magic.

Your understanding of genetics is quite right. Indeed, if magic is recessive then the whole squib/mudblood inheritance patterns are much more easily explained. However, JKR has stated that the magic gene is dominant. My hypothesis is based on the assumption that JKR did not make a mistake. Therefore, the only way to reconcile the inheritance patterns with magic being a dominant trait is to introduce a multi-allele.

Now... it seems everyone (so far) really doesn't like my Dumbledore the blackmailer idea. I admit - its out there. But, it is possible. If Petunia was worried about Voldemort coming for her, why then would she not inform Vernon of this very real danger and the protection they are blessed with in the form of Harry. I wouldn't think Vernon would be so quick to anger Harry if he knew of this value. Yes, there might be something to the ancient magic that protects Harry at the Dursley's that involves Petunia - but why would she care if it doesn't also protect her? And if it does, and if it is only true if Harry stays with them (hmm... 2 months of the year?), then why not let Vernon in on this? I suspect she is succumbing to either guilt (as suggested by others) or fear of discovery. Either of which she would hide from Vernon. I also don't buy that a man who could deliver a threat via a howler is not able to use blackmail. Obviously, whatever has been said by Dumbledore has power over her and she has not revealed what it is to Vernon. Has anyone considered the possibility that there is more to Dumbledore than meets the eye? Has he not gently guided Harry along the path of the prophecy? Could it not be that Dumbledore is using Harry to vanquish Voldemort once and for all? Would this manipulation of an eleven year old boy not be considered just as immoral as blackmail? Dumbledore has yet to tell Harry everything. Dumbledore only seems to reveal what Harry has already found out, or explains to Harry the meaning of what he has found out. Dumbledore has had plenty of opportunity to come clean and hasn't. But then, what kind of a story would there be if Dumbledore spills it all in Harry's first week at Hogwarts?

I also have the impression that it was the fact that Lily died to save Harry that gave Dumbledore the idea of using the blood magic to preserve him. This is why he sent him to the Dursleys. That's why I'm confused by the earlier letters he sent Petunia--the ones before "my last"--because if this is true he wouldn't have been planning all along to send Harry there if he were orphaned. (Dd also says at some point that he wanted Harry raised by Muggles because his having somehow stopped Voldemort would make him such a celebrity in the wizarding world. I just don't have the impression that Dd's knowledge of the future is that specific.) I do think Petunia may have attended Hogwarts at some point; I think she and Dumbledore have some sort of relationship that didn't begin because she was Lily's sister.While I have already stated that I don't think Petunia went to Hogwarts, I don't think that argument needs any more pressing.

However, I do still think that Dumbledore is more on top of things than what you're suggesting. Remember, when Dumbledore said that he thought it better for Harry to be raised with muggles so that he wouldn't get a big head, he was telling this to McGonnagal (and perhaps Hagrid...I can't remember if he had arrived with Harry yet). McGonnagal does not necessarily know about the blood charm being placed on Harry, so the explanation makes sense - it was one of the benefits of placing Harry with the Dursleys, and so Dumbledore could use it as an excuse for those who weren't privy to further information.

We know from JKR that Dumbledore was writing letters to Petunia beforehand. So, unless they were love letters (I know I'm seriously going to regret bringing that up, because I am sure there are those out there who advocate the possibility), it makes perfect sense that the letters would be to prepare Petunia in some way.

Because they were sent just to Petunia, Dumbledore probably mentioned in them that he knew Vernon was not going to like the idea, but that Petunia must somehow convince him to let Harry stay. While Petunia was raised with a sister who was a witch, Vernon has no direct connection to the wizarding world (no blood ties) nor does he want any. He has a great dislike of Harry's world and would probably scoff at the idea of blood charms and such. Why give him that information unnecessarily if Petunia could convince him to let Harry stay on her own? Perhaps the excuse she used was that they would just stamp the magic right out of him. (Remember Vernon's words when Hagrid arrived to tell Harry who he really was. Something like "Remember, Petunia, we swore when we took him in that we would stamp it out of him." Ring any bells?)

And, as I already said, the letters were just sent to Petunia and she probably manipulated Vernon a bit to let Harry stay. Of course she would be fearful that Vernon would find out about the other letters! He would find out that Petunia had double-crossed him and would probably even suggest that she was in-league with Dumbledore (like that's a bad thing). In fact, another reason she could be fearful when she received the howler from Dumbledore is that Vernon might figure out what "remember my last" meant, or that he might ask about it.

Has anyone considered the possibility that there is more to Dumbledore than meets the eye? Has he not gently guided Harry along the path of the prophecy? Could it not be that Dumbledore is using Harry to vanquish Voldemort once and for all? Would this manipulation of an eleven year old boy not be considered just as immoral as blackmail? Dumbledore has yet to tell Harry everything. Dumbledore only seems to reveal what Harry has already found out, or explains to Harry the meaning of what he has found out. Dumbledore has had plenty of opportunity to come clean and hasn't. But then, what kind of a story would there be if Dumbledore spills it all in Harry's first week at Hogwarts?This is an interesting observation, I'll give you that, but I don't think it holds with the story that JKR is writing. Unless she's going to turn the moral of the story into "watch out who you trust, kiddies, cuz the good guys could be bad too!" it makes no sense that she is writing Dumbledore as a manipulative character. Indeed, she has reinforced throughout the ENTIRE series that if we can can't trust Dumbledore, we can't trust anyone.

Not only that, but JKR has often mentioned that Dumbledore is her voice in the series. So, what does your suggestion say about her?

BTW, did anyone check who the letter was addressed to in the movie?
In the movie, the letter is addressed to Mr. and Mrs. V. Dursley. I thought I remembered the letter being to both of them. Because of this, for the longest time, I thought that Dumbledore's "last" was referring to another letter, written before this one.

Another possible explanation is that this is just a movie mistake and JKR didn't think to correct it at the time. If I'm remembering correctly, in the books Dumbledore just says that he's written it all in a letter, not that he's written a letter to the Dursleys. My new paperbacks haven't gotten here yet, so I can't quote the line. Can someone find it for me?

Can you turn down a Hogwart's letter? I can't imagine they force you to go to Hogwarts. What if Petunia recieved a letter, and turned it down? I know none of us could imagine that, but some people may not think its right or "abnormal" & choose to stay in muggle life.On a completely unrelated note, as I was watching the beginning of the first movie again, a thought just struck me. We know that a Hogwarts letter can be turned down from the answer on JKR's site. But who exactly can turn down a Hogwarts letter? The reason for asking the question is that the Dursleys obviously tried to turn down Harry's letters from Hogwarts by not giving them to him, but the letters just kept on coming.

So, to turn down a Hogwarts letter, do you have to respond to say that your child isn't coming? Or is the child, the one to whom the letter is addressed, the only one who can turn it down?

Or, because this is Harry Potter we're talking about, was it a special circumstance and Harry couldn't turn down his letter, even if he had wanted to?

3) Really stupid question: My 9th-grade biology teacher spent two weeks on genetics, and that's the extent of my knowledge. And I am waaaaaay out of 9th grade now. But what happens if both parents contribute a recessive gene to the mix? Doesn't that mean that the child will have that characteristic? I'm thinking that's how hemophilia spread in Queen Victoria's descendents; there was enough intermarriage that a lot of them had the recessive. Somebody please enlighten me! There's been enough wizard/Muggle pairings by now that quite a few Muggles would have the recessive gene for magic.

Not a stupid question. DrJ already confirmed that you do understand correctly, but just to clarify, your last sentence means there are lots of Muggles carrying a single copy of the allele; when two of them get together, they have the chance to produce a magical child. Sqibs would only be produced by mutation in this scenario, thus explaining their rarity.

Now, what DrJ proposed is that magic is a gene with multiple alleles. This means that there are three or more possible alleles for that particular gene, and there may be co-dominance between two of them, or one of them may be incompletely dominant. For instance, if Neville had the genotype of one recessive Muggle allele and one incompletely dominant magic allele, that would explain his relative lack of power (not that I believe this; I think it's really, as McGonagall says, lack of confidence).

Another possibility is that there are several different genes that control magical ability, which is in fact the case with many traits. For instance, there are nine different genes known to affect skin color. Each has an allele that says "make melanin" and one that says "don't make melanin." The color of your skin depends on how many of each type you have. Magic could work similarly.

Clear as mud?

simplybecky,

Thanks for that :) I thought I was going crazy. You would think that JKR would change something as important as that...unless she made another mistake OR she meant another letter that came for PETUNIA only after she found Harry.

Here is the quote from the book (bold is there for emphasis): 'It's the best place for him,' said Dumbledore firmly. 'His aunt and uncle will be able to explain everything to him when he's older, I've written them a letter.'
Which means that it WAS addressed to them both and not to Petunia only.

simplybecky stated:
So, to turn down a Hogwarts letter, do you have to respond to say that your child isn't coming? Or is the child, the one to whom the letter is addressed, the only one who can turn it down?
Or, because this is Harry Potter we're talking about, was it a special circumstance and Harry couldn't turn down his letter, even if he had wanted to?
I think you have to respond, but as the Dursley's and/or Harry didn't reply, they didn't know if Harry had read it. Also, remember McGonagall's and Hagrid's opinion of the Dursleys - the worst sort of Muggles. Also, remember that Mrs. Figg would be keeping an eye on Harry for Albus. They would know what type of ppl they are dealing with.

Meghana

Thanks for all the genetic info, guys.
Based on the huge number of owls that descended on the Dursleys after he got his letter and didn't respond, I think the student has to personally turn down the offer. Of course, it's quite possible that a closer eye was being kept on Harry. But if they really want Muggleborns, I think they'd say the prospective student has to respond; Muggle parents might say no because they don't understand. Did I hear somewhere that Muggles actually get a visit? I can't remember if that was from one of us or from JKR.

About the Evans parents--hasn't JKR said that the girls are full sisters? And not adopted?

simplybecky,

Thanks for that :) I thought I was going crazy. You would think that JKR would change something as important as that...unless she made another mistake OR she meant another letter that came for PETUNIA only after she found Harry.

Here is the quote from the book (bold is there for emphasis):
Which means that it WAS addressed to them both and not to Petunia only.Curiouser and curiouser. Here is the quote from JKR's site:"What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember my last'?)

Well, it is a relief to move on after the Mark Evans fiasco. This time, two out of the three poll questions had interesting answers (or so I think) and thank goodness you chose one of them.

So: Dumbledore is referring to his last letter, which means, of course, the letter he left upon the Dursley's doorstep when Harry was one year old. But why then (you may well ask) did he not just say 'remember my letter?' Why did he say my last letter? Why, obviously because there were letters before that...

Now let the speculation begin, and mind you type clearly, I'll be watching...

P.S. It has been suggested that I am wrong in saying that Dumbledore's last letter was the one he left on the doorstep with baby Harry, and that he sent a letter since then concerning Harry's illegal flight to school. However, both Dumbledore and I differentiate between letters sent to the Dursleys as a couple, and messages directed to Petunia ALONE. And that is my final word on the subject - though I doubt it will be yours :)

(emphasis added)To me, I see only one way this could not be a mistake: if the letter directed to Petunia alone is the one sent after the illegal car incident, since we don't know who this one is addressed to. (Unless that's in the book and I'm not remembering. meghana, do you want to do me a HUGE favor and look up that quote for me? I'll love you forever :rotfl: ) Mind you, I am not advocating this idea, because it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. It's just my observation.

I think JKR must have made a mistake here. Either she meant to address the letter left on the doorstep ONLY to Petunia and forgot to, or forgot the importance it would have later, or decided later (after the first book was published) that it would be important. She probably didn't have ALL of the subplots in mind before she wrote the series.

So, Jo, if you're reading, please clear this up for us. I know you said it was your last word, but you cleared things up last time we thought there was a contradiction. We're not asking what was in the letter or anything of that nature. But are we on the right track here, or is there something we're missing?

Okay, I seriously doubt she will respond to that one, but if anyone else has any ideas, I'd love to hear them...honestly :p

To me, I see only one way this could not be a mistake: if the letter directed to Petunia alone is the one sent after the illegal car incident, since we don't know who this one is addressed to.

As I recall, Dumbledore told Ron and Harry that he would be writing to both of their parents; in Harry's case, I took this to mean both Vernon and Petunia. I don't think any letter has been sent since then; JKR is pretty specific that "my last" means the one on the doorstep. Maybe there was one addressed to both of them to give Vernon some excuse or explanation, and another to Petunia only. Dumbledore may have expected that she would open the door first and get to her private letter before she talked to Vernon.

Or there had to be a reason why Dumbledore - either deliberately or by accident - said them to McGonagall.

While Dd plays his cards close to his chest, he avoids lying. Even in PoA, he doesn't deny that Harry and Hermione saved Sirius, he points out that it is impossible unless they can be in two places at the same time. It seems unlikely he would lie to someone he trusted even if he meant to be misleading.

Of course, it could have technically been to both of them if Dd told Petunia to show Vernon the letter if she thought it would help convince him and if she thought it was safe to do so - a sort of "I'm telling you this and I don't think it would be wise to tell him but, if all else fails and there isn't any other way to get him to take Harry, show him this, not that I think it's a good idea."

Of course, there may have also been more than one letter in the envelope. Since mere students were able to magically disguise their Quibbler articles, I suppose Dd could work the letter so one would appear for Petunia and another for Vernon.

However, it's also possible that it was a slip of the tongue. This would be a real life answer and is less likely in a book. In real life, a person who tries never to tell direct lies might slip and say outright something they were only trying to give the impression of. Fictional characters, unless they're ones known for frequently making verbal mistakes, tend not to do that.

As I recall, Dumbledore told Ron and Harry that he would be writing to both of their parents; in Harry's case, I took this to mean both Vernon and Petunia. I don't think any letter has been sent since then; JKR is pretty specific that "my last" means the one on the doorstep. Maybe there was one addressed to both of them to give Vernon some excuse or explanation, and another to Petunia only. Dumbledore may have expected that she would open the door first and get to her private letter before she talked to Vernon.That's exactly why I said I wasn't advocating the idea. It makes no sense. And now that I think about it, it still would have been a mistake because she said pretty clearly that it was the letter on the doorstep.

Of course, it could have technically been to both of them if Dd told Petunia to show Vernon the letter if she thought it would help convince him and if she thought it was safe to do so - a sort of "I'm telling you this and I don't think it would be wise to tell him but, if all else fails and there isn't any other way to get him to take Harry, show him this, not that I think it's a good idea."That's actually a good way for making all things congruent. JKR wouldn't have made a mistake in that case, and Dumbledore wouldn't have lied. (Although, I don't think that's a very big lie, if he told McGonagall he was writing a letter to both the Dursleys and it ended up just being for Petunia.) In fact, it seems like something she would do.

It also matches up with my earlier suggestion of why Petunia would have been scared when she received the howler. It's almost certain that, whatever was in that letter, Petunia wasn't completely honest with Vernon about it. It easily follows that she would be scared that he would find out. Vernon does not seem to be a very reasonable man (by any stretch of the imagination).

The Last Letter was addressed to both Dursleys, of course, but written it was mostly for Petunia. Vernon simply wouldn't understand half of it. Petunia at least knew who Dumbledore is and, possibly, lots more. Very unlikely, though, there were words 'do not tell Vernon that and that', but the rest was left to Petunia to decide and explain. How much did she tell is to be seen. I'm hope only DD did not write it in an awful handwriting as he used such awful voices to write (or record) the Howler even Harry couldn't recognize :)

As for rejecting the letter from Hogwarts I can remember one suitable scenario from Stephen King. In The Talisman there is a boy who had experienced an unpleasant encounter with magic at the age of three. Since then he became most rational person one could imagine. He refused pointblank any belletristics and read, instead, Organic Chemistry only to not to notice his father (not a pleasant figure, too) still practised majik. The point is, this kept going on until ... desperate circumstances arose!
There were two factors involved I think might be relative to our case: 1) he performed said blunder on his own and 2) there were nobody to soothe him. You know nothing makes deeper imprint to the rest of life than a first-hand experience. (Freud might have said something on that matter, I'm sure.) I'm, for example, still unconsciously checking for the Off switch before pressing On after smthlikethat. And the second factor must be too common for the Muggleborns just because Muggle parents simply do not know how to handle supernatural effects. The MoM'd better keep a closer look on kids and issue booklets to parents at least.

I was chatting with a friend about the contents of Dumbledore's letters and this friend put forth yet another idea which I bring to everyone here - because I found it interesting. We know that magic powers can be passed from one person to another e.g. Voldemort to Harry. Is it possible that Lily passed some powers to Petunia either by accident (e.g. childhood mishap) or intentionally (e.g. to protect Harry)? Is it then possible that the Harry and Petunia must work together to defeat/vanquish Voldemort? This bit of knowledge might be the tidbit of knowledge of that Dumbledore then reminds Petunia of with his howler. Petunia can then be the muggle that can summon magical abilities without anything to do with genetics per se (I get the impression that JKR never much worried about the genetic possibilities). My only comment to this is that I somehow feel that the muggle that will show magical abilities will be Dudley - only because he seems so unlikely yet seems to be getting deeper and deeper into the magical world with each book.

As an aside, I reread 'Parting of the Ways' in Goblet to follow up on the idea in a different thread that Fudge is working for Voldemort. As I did so I realized that Madam Pomfrey's name is Poppy. Aside from Petunia and Lily, do we know of any other women named for flowers (I suppose we could include Fleur Delacouer in that)? I only ask because it seems an odd coincidence - kind of like, why would a woman named Lily marry a man named Potter? I don't recall anyone named Violet, Rose, or otherwise. I wonder if Madame Pomfrey is related in some way to the Evanses and Harry, and has a larger part to play yet in the story.

We know that magic powers can be passed from one person to another e.g. Voldemort to Harry. Is it possible that Lily passed some powers to Petunia either by accident (e.g. childhood mishap) or intentionally (e.g. to protect Harry)? Is it then possible that the Harry and Petunia must work together to defeat/vanquish Voldemort? This bit of knowledge might be the tidbit of knowledge of that Dumbledore then reminds Petunia of with his howler. Petunia can then be the muggle that can summon magical abilities without anything to do with genetics per se (I get the impression that JKR never much worried about the genetic possibilities). My only comment to this is that I somehow feel that the muggle that will show magical abilities will be Dudley - only because he seems so unlikely yet seems to be getting deeper and deeper into the magical world with each book.
I like the idea of Lily conferring powers on Petunia. Personally I would rather see Petunia be the magical Muggle than Dudley, but I'm certain it will be one of those two.

As an aside, I reread 'Parting of the Ways' in Goblet to follow up on the idea in a different thread that Fudge is working for Voldemort. As I did so I realized that Madam Pomfrey's name is Poppy. Aside from Petunia and Lily, do we know of any other women named for flowers (I suppose we could include Fleur Delacouer in that)? I only ask because it seems an odd coincidence - kind of like, why would a woman named Lily marry a man named Potter? I don't recall anyone named Violet, Rose, or otherwise. I wonder if Madame Pomfrey is related in some way to the Evanses and Harry, and has a larger part to play yet in the story.

There's also Lavender Brown, Pansy Parkinson, Moaning Myrtle, Narcissa (feminine form of narcissus) Malfoy, Florence (as in "I saw him kissing Florence behind the greenhouse"), Firenze (Italian for Florence), and Remus Lupin (although that's a last name rather than a given name). There was also a Rose Zeller mentioned in one of the sorting scenes; I can't remember which book, but she's several years younger than Harry and has had no contact with him since. And if you want to get really obscure, the ice cream parlor in Diagon Alley is owned by Florean Fortescue. I may be missing one or two; there's a list of flower names somewhere on Mugglenet. I've spent considerable time with a friend of mine trying to figure out what all these people have in common, and so far we've come up with zip.

simplybecky:
I think I have it! Thanks for posting the reply from JKR. I've been looking at it all wrong! It might NOT be a mistake.

From JKR:
the letter he left upon the Dursley's doorstep when Harry was one year old.
IF we take this literally, this means when Harry turned 1 years old, on July 31st. However, when Harry was left on the doorstep of the Dursleys it was Nov. 2nd (the attack on Halloween and Hagrid came a day later and Petunia found him the following morning.), which was when Harry was about 1 year and 3 months. I know i'm getting into semantics, but it becomes important when reading the PS.

The P.S still holds true:
It has been suggested that I am wrong in saying that Dumbledore's last letter was the one he left on the doorstep with baby Harry, and that he sent a letter since then concerning Harry's illegal flight to school. However, both Dumbledore and I differentiate between letters sent to the Dursleys as a couple, and messages directed to Petunia ALONE.
If you keep in mind that BOTH DD's letter on the doorstep AND the Ford Anglia incident letter were addressed to BOTH the Dursleys, this means that there is another letter, addressed to Petunia ONLY before the doorstop letter. WE think she is differentiating btwn the letter on the doorstep and the Ford Anglia letter - but SHE isn't. She's differentiating btwn THESE letters and ones to Petunia only. JKR is brilliant!!!!

Think about this logically. Petunia finds baby Harry on her doorstep. She screams because that means her sister is DEAD and she is SHOCKED to find a baby on her doorstep. Next, enter in Vernon, what's wrong Petunia? Why is a baby here? You say it's Harry? Lily's baby? What do you mean he has to LIVE HERE??!!?! Can you imagine Vernon NOT reading the letter? If the last letter was the one left with baby Harry, then the howler would be addressed to BOTH PETUNIA and VERNON. We know that Vernon is the biggest muggle around. There has to be an explanation that persuades Vernon that he has to take Harry in -- Petunia probably is convinced at that point to keep Harry (because of other letters from DD). I don't think that DD would take time to explain the Dementors and LV and all in the doorstep letter. Which explains his (Vernon's) confusion in Book 5.

However, there is another possibility that fits this situation (no more taking that sentence quite so literally). Someone, can't remember who, on these forums stated that maybe a letter was delivered to Mrs. Figg on Nov. 1st since an owl did fly by the Dursley's window before half-past eight. Maybe there was a letter inside Mrs. Figg's letter and that letter was for Petunia - Arabella had to hand deliver it. It is also possible that Petunia was sent a letter when Vernon was at work after receiving Harry. Please remember Dudley was a baby so wouldn't remember seeing an owl come to the house.

Start loving me ;) Here is the quote:
'Not today Mr. Weasley,' said Dumbledore. 'But I must impress upon both of you the seriousness of what you have done. I will be writing to both your families tonight.' (pg 64, CoS Bloomsbury Children's Paperback Edition)

Sorry for the long post :) Hope it makes sense.

Meghana

Thanks harpwench - I had in the back of my mind that Malfoy's wife also had a floral name (but was too lazy to dig for it). I guess JKR must merely love her garden.

DrJ -

There is a Violet in the series. I think the Pink Lady's friend is named Violet (she is a picture - not a living human).

Meghana

Hasn't JKR said that the Dursleys are Harry's only living relatives? If she did, did she mean "on Lily's side"--that much, I think, is true--or did that include James' as well?

simplybecky:
I think I have it! Thanks for posting the reply from JKR. I've been looking at it all wrong! It might NOT be a mistake.

From JKR:

IF we take this literally, this means when Harry turned 1 years old, on July 31st. However, when Harry was left on the doorstep of the Dursleys it was Nov. 2nd (the attack on Halloween and Hagrid came a day later and Petunia found him the following morning.), which was when Harry was about 1 year and 3 months. I know i'm getting into semantics, but it becomes important when reading the PS.

The P.S still holds true:

If you keep in mind that BOTH DD's letter on the doorstep AND the Ford Anglia incident letter were addressed to BOTH the Dursleys, this means that there is another letter, addressed to Petunia ONLY before the doorstop letter. WE think she is differentiating btwn the letter on the doorstep and the Ford Anglia letter - but SHE isn't. She's differentiating btwn THESE letters and ones to Petunia only. JKR is brilliant!!!!

Think about this logically. Petunia finds baby Harry on her doorstep. She screams because that means her sister is DEAD and she is SHOCKED to find a baby on her doorstep. Next, enter in Vernon, what's wrong Petunia? Why is a baby here? You say it's Harry? Lily's baby? What do you mean he has to LIVE HERE??!!?! Can you imagine Vernon NOT reading the letter? If the last letter was the one left with baby Harry, then the howler would be addressed to BOTH PETUNIA and VERNON. We know that Vernon is the biggest muggle around. There has to be an explanation that persuades Vernon that he has to take Harry in -- Petunia probably is convinced at that point to keep Harry (because of other letters from DD). I don't think that DD would take time to explain the Dementors and LV and all in the doorstep letter. Which explains his (Vernon's) confusion in Book 5.

However, there is another possibility that fits this situation (no more taking that sentence quite so literally). Someone, can't remember who, on these forums stated that maybe a letter was delivered to Mrs. Figg on Nov. 1st since an owl did fly by the Dursley's window before half-past eight. Maybe there was a letter inside Mrs. Figg's letter and that letter was for Petunia - Arabella had to hand deliver it. It is also possible that Petunia was sent a letter when Vernon was at work after receiving Harry. Please remember Dudley was a baby so wouldn't remember seeing an owl come to the house.

Start loving me ;) Here is the quote:


Sorry for the long post :) Hope it makes sense.

MeghanaI think that is just brilliant. So, when she says the letter that was left on the doorstep when Harry was one year old, we all think it's the letter witnessed Dumbledore leave when Harry was a year old. But in reality, there could be another letter. Great idea, Meghana!

I think the only reason Petunia would allow Harry to live with her family would be for Dudley.

It is evidently important (according to JKR) that Lily's wand was good for charms. This most likely applies to both the blood protection charm she confered on Harry but there may also be a connection to Petunia.

Petunia is knowledgeable about the wizard world. So much so, (re:dementor's and Azkabahn) that I do not think it unreasonable to assume that she has spent time in the wizard's world. There are only a few reason's for this that I think that Petunia would actually go along with.

1) Unwilling ally to fight Voldemort but to what extent I have no idea.

Or

2) Perhaps, Dudley is more magical than we think. Not in that he is a wizard but perhaps the product of powerful magic. Perhaps, keeping Harry safe is an exchange. In his last letter to Petunia, it might be assumed that Dumbledore, while not threatening her, reminded her strongly of what her sister did for her in the production of Dudley.

Perhaps, Vernon is unaware of the extent to which they "owe" the Lily for their happiness in Dudley or believes that their debt is paid and they should be rid of the boy once and for all now that he goes to Hogwarts.

I think that Petunia's hatred for magic and all that it stands for, but owing Lily for Dudley grates at Petunia. Then being reminded, daily, by Harry's mere presence that she must look after him to "pay it back" would help explain her loathing of Harry throughout his life but would also cause Petunia to not want to threaten the magic that gave her Dudley.

Just my 2 cents

Cadpig

2) Perhaps, Dudley is more magical than we think. Not in that he is a wizard but perhaps the product of powerful magic. Perhaps, keeping Harry safe is an exchange. In his last letter to Petunia, it might be assumed that Dumbledore, while not threatening her, reminded her strongly of what her sister did for her in the production of Dudley.

Perhaps, Vernon is unaware of the extent to which they "owe" the Lily for their happiness in Dudley or believes that their debt is paid and they should be rid of the boy once and for all now that he goes to Hogwarts.

I think that Petunia's hatred for magic and all that it stands for, but owing Lily for Dudley grates at Petunia. Then being reminded, daily, by Harry's mere presence that she must look after him to "pay it back" would help explain her loathing of Harry throughout his life but would also cause Petunia to not want to threaten the magic that gave her Dudley.I have no idea what you mean by this. Could you explain your meaning and reasoning?

Personally, I think theories saying that there is more to Dudley, or even that he will be the one who will use magic later in the series, are a bit off. I'm pretty sure Jo's words at the Edinburgh Book Festival dispelled these theories:"Is there more to Dudley than meets the eye?"

"No. [Laughter]. What you see is what you get. I am happy to say that he is definitely a character without much backstory. He is just Dudley. The next book, Half Blood Prince, is the least you see of the Dursleys. You see them quite briefly. You see them a bit more in the final book, but you don't get a lot of Dudley in book six - very few lines. I am sorry if there are Dudley fans out there, but I think you need to look at your priorities if it is Dudley that you are looking forward to. [Laughter].

(emphasis added)

Here are the basics:
-Dumbledore sent this Howler.
-His "last" is the letter he left at the Dursley’s doorstep with Harry. (J.K.’s statement)
-This means that Dumbledore has sent more than one letter to Petunia.
-Vernon has no idea what this letter is or what it means.
-Petunia was terrified at the mention of the last letter.
-Dumbledore wrote a Howler (instead of a normal letter) to make a fierce point.

I beg to differ with the second point. His last was not the letter left with Baby Harry. Jo said both Dumbledore and I differentiate between letters sent to the Dursleys as a couple, and messages directed to Petunia ALONE. So, was that letter left with Harry directed to Petunia? No. It was directed to the couple. Therefore, it is not that letter. It must have been one before that, or one after.

First of all, we must consider what we know about Aunt Petunia:
-Aunt Petunia is Harry’s mother’s sister.
-She is a Muggle, as her sister was Muggle-born.
-She has always despised Lily’s powers (she calls her "a freak").
-She wants nothing to do with the magical world.
-She is very afraid of magic and magical people.
-She took Harry in when his parents died.

Where is this evidence coming from? What do we have, other than Petunia's rant in PS/SS, to suggest that she hates her sister? She certainly hates her sister's powers--why wouldn't she? She's obviously jealous, and who can blame her? But I believe she really loves her sister.

I beg to differ with the second point. His last was not the letter left with Baby Harry. Jo said both Dumbledore and I differentiate between letters sent to the Dursleys as a couple, and messages directed to Petunia ALONE. So, was that letter left with Harry directed to Petunia? No. It was directed to the couple. Therefore, it is not that letter. It must have been one before that, or one after.Okay, I guess we're going to have to go here again. While meghana has offered an interesting theory as to how we can get around this one (and I won't post it here; just go back and read her previous posts and you'll see what I mean), this is what JKR has said on the matter:"What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember my last'?)

Well, it is a relief to move on after the Mark Evans fiasco. This time, two out of the three poll questions had interesting answers (or so I think) and thank goodness you chose one of them.

So: Dumbledore is referring to his last letter, which means, of course, the letter he left upon the Dursley's doorstep when Harry was one year old. But why then (you may well ask) did he not just say 'remember my letter?' Why did he say my last letter? Why, obviously because there were letters before that...

Now let the speculation begin, and mind you type clearly, I'll be watching...

P.S. It has been suggested that I am wrong in saying that Dumbledore's last letter was the one he left on the doorstep with baby Harry, and that he sent a letter since then concerning Harry's illegal flight to school. However, both Dumbledore and I differentiate between letters sent to the Dursleys as a couple, and messages directed to Petunia ALONE. And that is my final word on the subject - though I doubt it will be yours

(emphasis added)So, unless meghana's theory (or one similar to it) is correct, this is what JKR has given us to work with.Where is this evidence coming from? What do we have, other than Petunia's rant in PS/SS, to suggest that she hates her sister? She certainly hates her sister's powers--why wouldn't she? She's obviously jealous, and who can blame her? But I believe she really loves her sister.And secondly, I believe blaqlives said the same thing you did, that Petunia despised her sister's powers. Her post (or at least the part you quoted) did not say that Petunia hated her sister.

I don't know. I think the argument really could go either way. Is the blood protection that Lily left available to Petunia and Dudley? I think not. But what about the charm of ancient magic that Dumbledore performed on Harry (which was sealed by Petunia) when he left him at the Dursleys'?

I'm not saying that they are protected, but I don't know that we can say it's not true just because Dumbledore never said anything about it. There are a lot of things Dumbledore still hasn't revealed (and many more he will never reveal - we can be sure of that).

Someone, please show me an argument either way, because both are pretty even-footed. I don't see evidence for or against either one.

It seems logical that there IS some form of protection for the Dursleys or at the very least for Petunia from the blood charm or some other charm of Dumbledore's. It would be a huge weakness in the protection for Harry if all Voldemort had to do was KILL PETUNIA and to avoid it. That is TOO easy. Dumbledore had to ensure that Petunia stays alive in order for the protection on Harry to be of any use.

Also Voldemort KNOWS he cant touch Harry at Privet drive... (can't remember the exact bit he says it.. cant be bothered to check but I think it was beginning of GoF).
(PURE SPECULATION: It could be that Dumbledore has told Petunia that HER protection from Vol depends on her providing a home to Harry... Not exactly blackmail, I agree blackmail is not D's style. Giving her an "incentive"to keep Harry by explaining the terrible possible consequences if they dont... Now that IS quite possible.

Also Voldemort KNOWS he cant touch Harry at Privet drive... (can't remember the exact bit he says it.. cant be bothered to check but I think it was beginning of GoF).
(PURE SPECULATION: It could be that Dumbledore has told Petunia that HER protection from Vol depends on her providing a home to Harry... Not exactly blackmail, I agree blackmail is not D's style. Giving her an "incentive"to keep Harry by explaining the terrible possible consequences if they dont... Now that IS quite possible.You are onto something here. I have thought about this myself, and I quite like the implications of it. I believe that it is much more likely that Dumbledore gave Petunia this kind of incentive to keep Harry, rather than blackmailing her.

I think if we meld a lot of these theories together, we could come to something close to the truth. Petunia is afraid of the wizarding world. We know she knows about dementors and we know she knows about Voldemort. Because she has this kind of fear, Dumbledore could have played on that by offering her guaranteed protection. This would allow Petunia to do the very thing that no one would expect her to do - take in Harry Potter, the son of her sister and brother-in-law, whom she wanted nothing to do with in life.

OK I think I found an issue with my theory.

In Order of the Phoenix, pg 836 American Hardback Dumbledore states the following:
"Your aunt knows this. I explained what I had done in the letter I left, with you, on her doorstep. She knows that allowing you houseroom may well have kept you alive for the past 15 years."

So either Jo forgot that she addressed the letter with baby Harry to both of them (another mistake) OR that means that Vernon never read the letter OR that meant there was a letter within the letter... One for both Petunia and Vernon AND one for Petunia ONLY.

HELP!!!

Meghana

OK I think I found an issue with my theory.

In Order of the Phoenix, pg 836 American Hardback Dumbledore states the following:


So either Jo forgot that she addressed the letter with baby Harry to both of them (another mistake) OR that means that Vernon never read the letter OR that meant there was a letter within the letter... One for both Petunia and Vernon AND one for Petunia ONLY.

HELP!!!

MeghanaAwhile back someone brought up the idea that if the Quibbler can be bewitched to look like something else, why not a letter? Perhaps there was another letter in there for only Petunia, one that only she could see?

Maybe this isn't the solution, but in order to reconcile all these things with each other (things Jo has told us are true, but don't seem to add up by themselves), we have to look outside the box. I would prefer to believe that Jo didn't make a mistake and just hasn't given us all the viable information.

I can't really think of anything right now that could work, but let's take awhile and look at this. What missing information (that Jo hasn't given us, or just hasn't clued us in on) could make these ends meet?

Becky,

This is what I think. Dumbledore left TWO letters that night. One that he showed to McGonagall and one that he didn't. Who says that he shows McGonagall everything? He doesn't. He tells ppl only what they need to know.

The one he showed McGonagall was addressed to Mr. & Mrs. V. Dursley. It seems to me that Minerva had NO clue that Petunia and Albus had been communicating.

Petunia screams. Vernon (either comes to the door or not) and says what's wrong? They take Harry inside and read the letter. Vernon leaves for work. Petunia takes baby Harry upstairs. When lifting him from the basket/basinette thing, she finds another letter JUST for her.

This, is dependant on the fact that they don't search baby Harry for other things (belongings, etc).

Another scenario: Petunia screams. Petunia searches for another letter and hides it on her person. Vernon (either comes to the door or not) and says what's wrong? They take Harry inside and read the letter. Vernon leaves for work. Petunia takes baby Harry upstairs. She reads the letter.

Meghana

Becky,

This is what I think. Dumbledore left TWO letters that night. One that he showed to McGonagall and one that he didn't. Who says that he shows McGonagall everything? He doesn't. He tells ppl only what they need to know.

The one he showed McGonagall was addressed to Mr. & Mrs. V. Dursley. It seems to me that Minerva had NO clue that Petunia and Albus had been communicating.

Petunia screams. Vernon (either comes to the door or not) and says what's wrong? They take Harry inside and read the letter. Vernon leaves for work. Petunia takes baby Harry upstairs. When lifting him from the basket/basinette thing, she finds another letter JUST for her.

This, is dependant on the fact that they don't search baby Harry for other things (belongings, etc).

Another scenario: Petunia screams. Petunia searches for another letter and hides it on her person. Vernon (either comes to the door or not) and says what's wrong? They take Harry inside and read the letter. Vernon leaves for work. Petunia takes baby Harry upstairs. She reads the letter.

MeghanaAnother thought that just occurred to me is that if Petunia and Dumbledore were corresponding without Vernon's knowledge (indeed because Petunia didn't want Vernon to know), they might have made it clear that if Harry were to be left with the Dursleys, there would have been a letter left for both of them with different instructions that Vernon could live with, and a separate letter for Petunia entirely. That way she would have known to look for the other letter before Vernon got there.

simplybecky stated:
they might have made it clear that if Harry were to be left with the Dursleys, there would have been a letter left for both of them with different instructions that Vernon could live with, and a separate letter for Petunia entirely. That way she would have known to look for the other letter before Vernon got there.

That definitely sounds correct. I think it depends on what type of husband Vernon is...if he's the type to run to Petunia when she screams, there might have been time between she actually SAW Harry and she screamed. In this time interval, she would have looked for the letter. Also, what type of person Vernon is...would he root around a baby to look for a letter? I don't think so. But, she probably knows that there is something for her and to look.

Meghana

Third scenario: they both have read the letter and Vernon says: 'That's a lot of rubbish! Who's that Voldemort? A Ministry of Magic?' Then Petunia patiently and choosing the words carefully explains things not going much into details and history. It won't do to explain to Vernon the Death Eaters, for example.

Third scenario: they both have read the letter and Vernon says: 'That's a lot of rubbish! Who's that Voldemort? A Ministry of Magic?' Then Petunia patiently and choosing the words carefully explains things not going much into details and history. It won't do to explain to Vernon the Death Eaters, for example.Well, I suppose that is one way of looking at it, but I still hold that Vernon does not know the full story. Remember, JKR said that she distinguishes between letters sent to them as a couple, and letters addressed to Petunia alone. There had to have been a letter for just Petunia somewhere in there.

I have been away from a computer for over a week, so I just read this whole thing. It seems like an awful lot of discussion is about "who the letter" was addressed to. And I've been thinking that it doesn't really matter. If you reread the beginning of the first book, it was clear that it was a very ordinary day. Petunia was doing her usual thing. She wasn't flustered, or worried, but just going about her usual business. It seems as if she hadn't heard from her sister in awhile. And from her calm demeanor, she most likely hadn't been in contact with Dumbledore lately, either. So that the owl that flew by the window most likely went to Mrs. Figg. I don't think that Petunia could hide her emotions if she knew that her sister had just been killed. She found it out when she read the letter.

Now whether the letter was addressed to only Petunia, or Petunia and Vernon, doesn't really make a big difference. What matters is what the letter called "the last" said. And it most likely told Petunia the reason she needed to keep Harry - his life depended on it. As the author of the editorial said, being responsible for someone else's death is a big thing. I really don't think Dumbledore would tell Petunia the details of the prophecy. I think he simply told her that Voldemort killed the parents and would continue to try and kill Harry. Petunia's home would keep him alive. Isn't that enough? If someone told you that keeping your nephew in your home would keep him safe, wouldn't you do it too? I don't think that the motives here are very complicated.

I also agree with some of the others that there had been letters in the past to exlain what was happening in the wizard world to Petunia. She knew what it meant to have Voldemort back, so she knows something that she most likely learned from letters, and possibly by some kind of firwst hand experience.

Now whether the letter was addressed to only Petunia, or Petunia and Vernon, doesn't really make a big difference. What matters is what the letter called "the last" said. And it most likely told Petunia the reason she needed to keep Harry - his life depended on it. As the author of the editorial said, being responsible for someone else's death is a big thing. I really don't think Dumbledore would tell Petunia the details of the prophecy. I think he simply told her that Voldemort killed the parents and would continue to try and kill Harry. Petunia's home would keep him alive. Isn't that enough? If someone told you that keeping your nephew in your home would keep him safe, wouldn't you do it too? I don't think that the motives here are very complicated.I think it makes quite a bit of difference who the letter was addressed to, because JKR said it made a difference. She said she differentiates between letters written to the Dursleys as a couple and to Petunia alone. So, unless she made a mistake, a bit of theorizing is in order to reconcile the two statements.

I also think that, while it might not have been a big deal to Petunia to let Harry stay, it was a big deal to Vernon. Remember, in OotP, he would have had Harry out on the street. I think a bit of storytelling (namely lying - stretching the truth) was involved to get Vernon to allow Harry to stay, otherwise it would have been straight to an orphanage for Harry.

Simplybecky wrote:
I think a bit of storytelling (namely lying - stretching the truth) was involved to get Vernon to allow Harry to stay, otherwise it would have been straight to an orphanage for Harry.
True. I'd just like to know who had cooked up a story for Vernon: DD writing a letter for him or Petunia on her own devices?

True. I'd just like to know who had cooked up a story for Vernon: DD writing a letter for him or Petunia on her own devices?I think this was part of correspondence between Dumbledore and Petunia before Harry came to live with the Dursleys. Dumbledore would have thought it best for Vernon to not have the information, and Petunia would have seen that was for the best, and I think Dumbledore helped Petunia cook up a story.

As you'll note from one of the previous posts, I think the story that Petunia ended up telling Vernon was that they would stamp the magic out of Harry, referencing what Vernon said to Petunia the night Harry received his letter from Hagrid. Something along the lines of "When we took him in, we swore we would stamp it out of him. We swore we would put a stop to it." That is the story that I think Petunia and Dumbledore went with.

Can you imagine how mad Vernon would be if he found out the truth?

EDIT: Here is the quote from the book. "We swore when we took him in we'd put a stop to all that rubbish," said Uncle Vernon," swore we'd stamp it out of him! Wizard indeed!"
PS/SS, pg. 53

Excellent points, Ellen.

What interests me is that Petunia recognizes Dumbledore's handwriting and voice when even Harry doesn't. She hasn't heard from him in 14 years (except for the one letter about the flying car). Harry has spent 10 months a year with him for the last four years and thinks about him constantly for the other 2 months. At Grimmauld Place, JKR again emphasizes that Harry doesn't recognize Dumbledore's handwriting even though he has seen it before. Yet Petunia does. To me this indicates that Dumbledore was in very frequent contact with Petunia during the first war and probably even spoke to her face to face on at least one occasion.


A possible answer is that Harry hasn't heard Dumbledore yell like that and Petunia has. Also, if Petunia has only limited contact with the magical world, she would only have a few voices (or one) to recognize; Harry has loads of people's voices running around in his head!

Is Aunt Petunia a Squib?

Good question. No, she is not, but—[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but—[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet.

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrebf.shtml

So, she is not a witch, either. She is a Muggle. However, this does make it seem that maybe she will be the one to develop powers late in life. A squib is a non magical person born to at least one magical parent. (miscellaneous section in the extras page on JKR website) So it's possible that maybe one of Lily and Petunia's grandparents or great grandparents may have been magical, which would explain why their parents were so proud of Lily being a witch. I really think Petunia is jealous. There may be more, but that is the main thing. She secretly absorbs all information from the magical world that she can get her hands on. I still think she gets the Daily Prophet, at least during the school year. Why else did she send Harry a Kleenex for Christmas in GOF? She had to have read that article.

I never caught that connection - the one between the tissue and the article! Great point!

Do we know that Lily and Petunia's parents were Muggles? For the pureblood crowd, anyone who comes from a line that's intermarried with Muggles is a Mudblood. I ask because Petunia says they're so proud that Lily's a witch. I don't know that Muggles would react that way; I don't get the impression that the Grangers do. They support Hermione and are dealing with it, but proud?

JKR has said that "last" means when Harry was left with the Dursleys and that there were obviously letters before that. The editorial says that Dd was preparing Petunia because he thought she'd end up with Harry. Did he? For one thing, was he so sure James and Lily were doomed? With the Fidelius Charm and everything? And that Harry would survive? I've stupidly lent out all the books, so I have no quotes, but I certainly got the impression that he sent Harry to the Dursleys because Lily died TO SAVE HIM, not just because she died. He talks about blood magic and deciding to put his faith in her blood. Why would he have been thinking along those lines before she died?

I wonder if those earlier letters were about something else. She may have been a Hogwarts student--he calls her "Petunia," sounding like they have some sort of relationship. And she may have some powers. That house of hers is really unnaturally clean.
you have said something I always thought true
the Grangers are highly uncomfortable about wizardry (clueless too I guess)
this resentment might lead to complications when hermy-one chooses harry/ron/???
from the wizarding world
Worst , while reading 'the daily prophet',
THEY MIGHT NOT ALLOW HERMIONE TO COME TO HOGWARTS

THATS SCARY

I Think If .. If There Is An Attack On Harry At No.4 , Aunt Petunia Can Channel Some Powwers Of Dumbledore To Protect Herself And Harry
That Is The Something More Than What Meets The Eye About Her
Petunia Is The Living Conduit Of Some Wizard/witch's Power (only When Terrified Or Threatened)

I have been considering the magical status of Aunt Petunia since book one simply because she is sooooo terrified of magic - unnaturally so. DD gives us a big clue in cos when he tells Harry that it is not what we are but the choices we make that make us who we trully are. With this in mind Petunia may be a muggle because she has chosen to be such, perhaps Lilly's "abnormality" shocked her to such an extent she was as determined not to be magical as Harry was not to be sorted into Slytherin. However I believe the truth will out sooner or later, Petunia may yet find her inner magic if her own family is sufficiently threatned! Which takes me to a different question - Just how much contact has she had with the magical world in general and with Voldimort in particular? She clearly knows more than we had been led to believe prior to book 5. I sence back story that I can't wait to read about in the coming books. One thing I will postulate here is this How did James and Lilly's parents die - James clearly still had his during his school years as Sirius talks about spending a great deal of time with them. Did their deaths have anything to do with their previous 3 encounters with Voldemort? How much of this is known to Petunia and is it this that feeds her obvious fear of the return of Voldemort?

I'd love to know what Petunia and Dumbledore have been talking about in their letters. Why are those letters kept secret from Vernon... that certainly adds an interesting side to Petunia. Petunia flustered when she said how she knew about the dementors: "I heard-" This "I heard" followed by a suspension sounds suspicious to me, as if she is inventing where she heard it: perhaps the truth was "I read" but that would have made Vernon raise an eyebrow: where did you read it? the daily prophet? a letter from a wizard? hearing is innocent; reading is not... We've caught Petunia being hypocritical. "As if we care about their sordid affairs" she says (approx.) about some actors I think, but Harry knows she has been following all the details of their love life in every magazine she could "get her bony hands on." Very likely this could apply to a secret interest in magic also, that she hides from Vernon, putting up this I hate magic appearance. She may hate it only partially, out of jealousy for not being gifted like Lily. Maybe keeping her house extra clean is not a sign of her magic qualities, but rather her competitive character. At least she can be a "perfect Muggle."

p.s. Like others, I also loved momaaluna's insight about the tissue sent by Petunia and information/quote about Petunia's muggle/possible part-time witch status.

Maybe keeping her house extra clean is not a sign of her magic qualities, but rather her competitive character. At least she can be a "perfect Muggle."This is exactly how I feel about her kitchen being so "unusually clean." It has always seemed to me that she it trying too hard to prove something.

arleneskil stated:
simply because she (Petunia) is sooooo terrified of magic - unnaturally so.

MagicLantern stated:
Maybe keeping her house extra clean is not a sign of her magic qualities, but rather her competitive character. At least she can be a "perfect Muggle."

Let me state that I think Petunia protests TOO much about magic...that she hates it, i don't think so (isn't there a Shakespeare line like "Doth protest too much"?). She can do without it, thank you very much. She hates it (one of the reasons) because of "advantage" it gives her sister. I think she secretly wishes she had those powers as well.

Meghana

That was a great editoral and theroy!

I cant wait for HBP to come out now i think it will explain so much.
Of course Petunia knows stuff about Hogwarts her sister WAS a witch.
~Kelsey~

Letters come from Dumbledore in immediate response to conversations and thoughts. By which I mean, he sends letters as if he were in the room and participating in the conversation real time. (eg sending Finneas to tell Harry to stay where he was, and the "remember my last" etc).
So..... Imagine Petunia alone in the house, trying to think of how she could get rid of baby Harry... (Orphanage perhaps?) Dumbledore could well have sent her a howler at that time to "convince" her to keep him.

Letters come from Dumbledore in immediate response to conversations and thoughts. By which I mean, he sends letters as if he were in the room and participating in the conversation real time. (eg sending Finneas to tell Harry to stay where he was, and the "remember my last" etc).
So..... Imagine Petunia alone in the house, trying to think of how she could get rid of baby Harry... (Orphanage perhaps?) Dumbledore could well have sent her a howler at that time to "convince" her to keep him.
That's a good thought. However, JKR says in the FAQ on her website that Dumbledore's last letter to Petunia (not counting the one about the flying car, which was for both Petunia and Vernon) was the letter left with baby Harry on the doorstep. Therefore, we know that no Howler was sent after that until the Dementor attack in OotP. See the excellent Burrow editorial Dissecting Dumbledore's Last by Meghana.

I skimmed the posts on this topic, but didn't notice the point I'm about to bring up. If it has been discussed already, I apologize (I'm at work, things are slow, but I have to keep a sharp ear and fast mouse finger at the ready).

Anyway, JKR has said, and MuggleNet has reported that it's VERY important for us to remember that, among other things, Lily's wand was very good for charm work.

Reading this editorial ("Preparing Petunia") and the posts gave me a sudden idea:

What if Lily Potter also charmed Petunia before dying?

Let me explain:

BACKRGROUND

Even with the charms in place to protect them, I'm sure Lily and James knew they were marked by Voldemort. Since they seemed like good, caring parents (that's an understatement; Lily DIED to save Harry) I'm certain they would do whatever it took to protect Harry's future well-being. Thing about it: The money at Gringotts? Unless Lily and Harry were extremely wealthy - and I don't get the impression that either of them come from Malfoy-like financial backgrounds - they wouldn't have gobs of money lying in wait, and neither of them were old enough to have saved up such amounts of money through work. They must have known Harry would need it to get through to adulthood (if something happened to them) and planned accordingly.

LILY & PETUNIA'S RELATIONSHIP and PETUNIA AS WITCH

JKR says several times that Lily & Petunia hadn't met for years, and it's obvious that Petunia has serious underlying emotional issues regarding her sister being a witch.

However, almost every family has some sort of dysfunction and it takes a SERIOUS and hurtful situation to cause family members to stop loving and caring about one another completely, no matter how rarely they meet. So it's possible, and highly likely, that Petunia still cared for her "freak" of a sister, even though she had little to do with her and sometimes denied having a sister (as pointed out in Chapter One, American edition of SS). I also think it's highly likely that Lily never stopped caring for Petunia.

I take JKR's word on her books as truth. If Petunia is a Muggle, and JKR says so, Petunia is a Muggle. Petunia's not a witch-in-denial, not a Squib; she's a Muggle. But I do think JKR's quote regarding a character performing magic later in life is possibly referring to Petunia (I'd be willing to bet on it).

LILY'S PREPARATIONS

Like I've already said, it's likely Lily and James prepared themselves for death and that the sister bond between Lily and Petunia remained in spite of Petunia's feelings towards Lily's witchhood.

Therefore, I think it's possibly that Lily, under Dumbledore's knowledge, prepared her sister with some sort of charm to take care of Harry. Lily was a skilled witch, so she could have easily showed up on Privet Drive (perhaps even under James' invisibility cloak) and done the charm without Petunia's knowledge.

For those who will argue that Dumbledore could have done this (or did something similar upon delivering Harry), it's been noted that Harry's blood relationship to Petunia is very powerful and the reason why Harry must stay with the Dursleys in order to be protected. I cannot reference my books here at work, but I'm also thinking that Dumbledore alluded to - if not said outright - that the kind of magic Lily transferred to Harry by dying for him was more powerful than Voldemort and possibly more powerful than Dumbledore. Dumbledore, no matter how skilled a wizard, cannot create a blood bond between himself and Harry and it is therefore likely Lily (or James) would have been required to perform some sort of spell on Petunia. Since Lily's wand is good for charm work, my money would be on her.

This theory can build upon several points made in the editorial, as well as information from MuggleNet and JKR herself.

I may be way off base, but the idea came to me and it was too go to let slip away.

Any comments? :huh:

Old thread, but I've been wondering about a small thing I noticed that I've never seen addressed before: Petunia says in OOTP that she knows that the dementors are the Azkaban prison guards because she heard "that awful boy" talking about it with "her" (I believe that this is in reference to Lily and James). But if I am understanding correctly, the dementors were on LV's side before he tried to kill Harry, and therefore, they would not have been guards at the prison at the time that Petunia claims to have overheard James and Lily talking. So I think Petunia is lying here, and I think it is another clue that she has (or had) more contact with the wizarding world than she has let on. Just a thought.

genevive:

It is an old, but interesting, thread.

I, too, think Petunia was referring to Lily and James when she said that "awful boy" and "her." However, I've picked up glimmers of ideas that suggest it's not necessarily Lily and James (but it doesn't really make sense any other way...to me, at least).

But Petunia's comment does not necessarily mean she's lying. When SS starts, Harry is one-year-old and we can guestimate that Lily and James are in their late 20s or early 30s. If LV was in power for 11 years prior to this, then James and Lily would have been in their late teens or early 20s when LV first really came to power. We know Lily and James met in school, so it's possible that the discussion they had regarding the dementors (the one Petunia is referring to) took place before LV's rise to power, while Lily and James were still at Hogwarts.

yah.. looks like this old thread is sputtering back to life...

Petunia says in OOTP that she knows that the dementors are the Azkaban prison guards because she heard "that awful boy" talking about it with "her" (I believe that this is in reference to Lily and James). But if I am understanding correctly, the dementors were on LV's side before he tried to kill Harry, and therefore, they would not have been guards at the prison at the time that Petunia claims to have overheard James and Lily talking. So I think Petunia is lying here, and I think it is another clue that she has (or had) more contact with the wizarding world than she has let on. Just a thought.

I think that you are right.. would the demontors have been the gaurds of Azkaban when Lilly and James where alive? I think that it is also intersting how it is never said who the "awlful boy" and "her" are... perhaps it's not them. Could Putunia's links to the magical world go deeper than we have imagined?

TheAurorTonks:

That Petunia's links to the magical world delve deeper than what meets the eye has been discussed. It's likely, but I still think she was referring to James and Lily. We know their names were never mentioned under the Dursley roof, and she has those underlying issues regarding her sister being a witch.

I think we'll see a lot of Petunia and learn more in the future.

Hi All - I'm glad to see there are threads on this, and this one is reviving! I need something to keep me busy until July 16th, and this is a subject of intense curiousity for me. I've enjoyed reading your posts very much on the subject of Petunia and the role she might play. I offer three (admittedly random and slightly wandering) observations to add to the discussion on how Petunia's comes by her knowledge of the wizarding world:

1) In my short experience here on the site, I've seen little discussion of the official ties between the magic and muggle worlds. Example: in PoA (US version) p.16-17, we hear that Sirius' escape is being announced on muggle television. On p.37, we learn from the Daily Prophet that Fudge has been criticized for informing the muggle PM about Sirius. Fudge goes on to explain that the PM has assured him he won't breathe a word of Black's true identity, implying that the muggle PM is very well aware of the wizard world. (Imagine, if you will, Tony Blair making an announcement on TV that a mad wizard has escaped from a magical prison guarded by undead soul-suckers and will kill anyone in his path with his wand. I don't know who would fall into spasms of ecstasy quicker, The Sun or the Enquirer!) So clearly, on official levels muggles are aware that the magical world exists, and there are official ties between the magic and muggle governments (at least in Britain) - remember the Muggle Relations brochure Hermione looks through in OotP? The magical world isn't a secret for all muggles, just many of them (see point #2).

(Is there an editorial that discusses this Magic/Muggle world relationship somewhere? If there is, I haven't found it yet and would appreciate direction!)

2) Other muggles, just plain old ordinary unofficial muggles, are perfectly aware of the magical world too. There are lots of examples of muggle-borns at Hogwarts, and all of their parents know exactly where they are, and why. Hermione's parents go into Flourish & Blotts with her and talk to the Weasleys in CoS. Surely they're not the first muggle parents of a magical child to do so. One might infer from this that Lily & Petunia's parents were the same (since they were so proud of Lily's ability). As a result, Petunia may have had quite an education on the wizarding world every year in the normal course of her sister's schooling at Hogwarts. She would've had plenty of opportunities to observe her sister talking to all sorts of different people in Diagon Alley. However, I have a different reading of the passage (much discussed in this thread) where the Dursley's find out Lord Voldemort is back. To me, Petunia's extra-choppy reaction is suspicious, and says to me that she's lying. Suppose she didn't hear about the dementors from eavesdropping on her sister, but rather in another way that she doesn't want Vernon to find out about? This may hint toward the much-discussed potential for communication between Petunia and Dumbledore before, during, or after Harry's arrival.

3. Here's one last alternative reading of another clue that's often repeated about Petunia: the surgical cleanliness of her kitchen. It seems to have often been taken as a sign that she uses other than muggle means to clean it, and might be a witch, albeit a witch in denial. However, the first thing that came to my mind was Lady MacBeth ("Out, damned spot!"). It seems to me that Petunia's anti-magic thing has carried over into her own life in a very physical way: she feels 'stained' by her relationship to the magical, and responds by trying to scrub her home clean of the magical filth. Harry also seems to have a lot of cleaning responsibilities in the Dursley home, as Petunia and Vernon try to squash the magic out of Harry. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that, as a boy under their roof, he was made to take steaming hot baths, too.

I think that this post is longer-winded than I meant it to be. If anyone's still interested in talking about this, I look forward to your reactions!

Great article!
I would venture to guess, though, that Dumbledore had sent a request to Petunia for Harry's safe-keeping before he sent the howler and that the howler was his respose to Petunia's refusal to take in her nephew. Dumbledore would be unlikely to threaten unless his hand had been forced, in my opinion.