Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy? #2

Emma
January 26th, 2005, 5:48 pm
Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16339)

Continue here.

hotharry
January 26th, 2005, 6:40 pm
I DONT KNOW! I think that he must not know, otherwise he would kill him wouldn't he?

destiney
January 26th, 2005, 7:13 pm
I wouldn't have thought Voldie would know other wise Snape would be dead as he would have no other reasons to keep Snape as he is too good at occulmancy and so Voldie wouldnt get any information out of him.

Snout
January 26th, 2005, 7:21 pm
It's obvious that he knows Snape is a spy because he said he wants to kill him. Unless there is another DE that Voldemort wants to kill and he doesn't mean Snape. Maybe he overlooked the fact that Snape is a spy seeing as he's good at occlumency, and maybe he thinks that Snape was just too scared to go back to him that night in the graveyard (i highly doubt it).

April_M
January 26th, 2005, 7:24 pm
first of all (and sorry for spoilers on this), Voldemort said he wanted to kill Snape, i think it was in OoTP. Also Voldemort doesnt like being doublecrossed, and he knew from Peter that Snape was working for Dumbledore now and also the fact that he didn't show up with the rest of the Death Eaters says something to him doesn't it?

axels
January 26th, 2005, 7:28 pm
In GOF, Voldemort said he believed a death eater to be gone forever, and that he would probably kill him. Im pretty sure he was talking about snape, because as far as Harry saw, Snape was not there. But it seems that snape has gone to voldemort later on, possibly soothing the dark lords fears by saying something like "i couldn't leave or dumbeldore would get suspicious."
So either voldemort knows and is using snape, which doesn't seem all that likely to me, or voldemort was convinced by snapes excuse. Remember Voldemort is good at telling when someone is lying, but snape is an expert at occlumency, perhaps so good he could fool voldemort.

chocolate brown
January 26th, 2005, 7:30 pm
I don't think Voldemort would want to kill Snape even if he knew that he work's for Dumbledore, I think he'd use him to get to Harry. :)

130R
January 26th, 2005, 7:31 pm
He must know if you look at the facts.

1. In PS/SS, LV did not bring Snape in on the plan to steal the stone. He must have had reason not to trust him at this point.

2. Snape works against Quirell to protect the stone. Some people might say that LV knew that Snape didn't know LV was stealing the stone. I don't LV would differentiate between someone who works against him intentionally and someone who works against him unintentionally.

3. Dumbledore, at Karkaroff's hearing, tells the entire council that Snape was a spy. Not a great way to keep that information secret.

4. Barty Crouch Sr. was at the aforementioned hearing. LV had taken over Crouch's mind. Whatever Crouch knows, Voldemort would know. Or atleast he *SHOULD* know. If he extracted every though from Bertha Jorkins mind, he would almost certainly do the same to a high ranking ministry official.

5. Graveyard scene, LV mentions a traitor.

Of course, I have no idea what Snape's task for the order is, except that it's his job to find out what LV is thinking. My guess is he's getting his information from another DE.

replacement
January 26th, 2005, 8:30 pm
Wouldn't you think the Dumbledore, claimed greatest wizard in the world, would know if Snape was spying for Voldermort. Also, Voldermort would have just had Snape grab Harry in the 2nd or 3rd book and bring him to Voldermort and let Harry die.

Or maybe, Snape is a spy and he is just waiting for the right moment or instructions from Voldermort to bring Harry in and then Harry will be killed. Overall, I think Snape has a clear slate and that he isn't a spy and is on Dumbledores site with the Order of the Phoenix.

axels
January 27th, 2005, 12:20 am
He must know if you look at the facts.

1. In PS/SS, LV did not bring Snape in on the plan to steal the stone. He must have had reason not to trust him at this point.

2. Snape works against Quirell to protect the stone. Some people might say that LV knew that Snape didn't know LV was stealing the stone. I don't LV would differentiate between someone who works against him intentionally and someone who works against him unintentionally.

3. Dumbledore, at Karkaroff's hearing, tells the entire council that Snape was a spy. Not a great way to keep that information secret.

4. Barty Crouch Sr. was at the aforementioned hearing. LV had taken over Crouch's mind. Whatever Crouch knows, Voldemort would know. Or atleast he *SHOULD* know. If he extracted every though from Bertha Jorkins mind, he would almost certainly do the same to a high ranking ministry official.

5. Graveyard scene, LV mentions a traitor.

Of course, I have no idea what Snape's task for the order is, except that it's his job to find out what LV is thinking. My guess is he's getting his information from another DE.



Then why is Snape still alive, if he knows? The only possiblity I can think of would be that snape either 1. convinced voldy that he is a double agent or
2. he actually is a double agent

I don't know :huh:

SnapeLova
January 27th, 2005, 1:16 am
i definately think that voldy knows. he is way to smart for that.

Kratos
January 27th, 2005, 2:51 am
Many of you, I see, seem to think that because of Dumbledore's status as the most powerful wizard in the world, he would automatically know if Snape was betraying him and spying for Voldemort. I don't see the reasoning in this. Snape, as a master Occlumens should be perfectly capable of blocking his thoughts from Dumbledore, Voldemort and really anybody else.

I mean, why was Dumbledore so intent in having Harry trained in Occlumency, after all? Was it not so that he could learn to block out Voldemort from his mind? It is obvious that Voldemort is far more powerful than Harry at the moment, yet Dumbeldore was having Harry trained to be able to resist Voldy's mind assaults. This tells us that the art of Occlumency/Legilimency really doesn't have much to do with a wizard's overall power and whatnot. Rather, it is the mastery of the art itself that will affect how well one is able to resist mind invasions/penetrate someone else's mind.

Also, do not forget that Barty Crouch Jr. was perfectly capable of completely fooling Dumbledore for the entire school year. The same, I believe, can be said about Quirrel.

This shows us that, just as Dumbledore himself admits, the old Headmaster of Hogwarts is by no means omnipotent or omniscient or anything of the sort. He is capable of being fooled and we must never overlook that fact, lest we get hit in the face with some very unpleasant, very unexpected surprise somewhere in the last two remaining books.

Now about Snape specifically.... I doubt he is still serving as a spy for Dumbledore. Voldemort knows he's a traitor and would surely never take him back with that knowledge in mind. Snape, in my opinion, will remain loyal to Dumbledore, and he will serve an important role in the Order and in the war, but his role will definitely not be that of a spy, I don't think.

replacement
January 27th, 2005, 3:01 am
Well put Kratos, I wasnt thinking about Occlumency when I was writing...You said what I am now thinking.

kathphphphp
January 27th, 2005, 8:12 am
what? i always thought that snape was the one voldemort was referring to when he said something like "another left us and he will pay". didn't he? and there's no reason for him not to know, when lucius and snape are..well, in my opinion, in good terms?

hotharry
January 27th, 2005, 4:06 pm
Hello! I doubt that Voldermort would let Snape live if he knew that he was a spy. The man would be dead by now, or Voldermort is using him to find out what the Order is doing. Otherwise I'm sure Voldermort would have killed Snape long ago, why keep him around if he's giving information to the otherside unless Voldermort is using that to his advantage. But I hardly doubt otherwise that snape would be dead.

principessa00
January 27th, 2005, 5:50 pm
I GoF, when they'r at the graveyard, Voldemort refers to him as the one that will never return. So, he knows, but I don't want him to kill Snape...

The other Jo
January 27th, 2005, 9:26 pm
I GoF, when they'r at the graveyard, Voldemort refers to him as the one that will never return. So, he knows, but I don't want him to kill Snape...
I'm 99% sure that quote does not refer to Snape. I have found that when Rowling makes something obvious it's always wrong.

Tami
January 27th, 2005, 10:05 pm
I believe that Snape was at the Graveyard scene, Harry just didn't recognize him, or notice him. When Harry gets back and starts naming names of DE's to Fudge, Snape jumps as to prevent Harry from speaking. I think Snape is afraid Harry will say his name. I don't think Voldemort's comment was about Snape. I think Snape is playing the role of double agent. Doubledore thinks he is spying on Voldemort for the order, Voldemort thinks he is spying on Doubledore for him. Both realize he will have to feed the other some information to keep them trusting him. And where Snape's true loyalities lie I am not sure. I believe he will choose whichever side he thinks will be better for his own safety, he is after all the head of the slytherian house.

LinnendeBlack
January 27th, 2005, 10:21 pm
I think that Voldemort knows he's a spy but can't/won't kill him because he is under Dumbledore's protection, and he can't invade Snape's mind because Snape is so good at Occlumency.
Either that or as someone else said he is a double agent, which I think is most likely.

conquest
January 27th, 2005, 11:09 pm
I think voldy has no clue, nor does lucious for that matter, otherwise why would draco be so cool with him? or crabbe or goyle for that matter. I'm sure they're DE dad's tell them all the traitors and who to look out for blah blah blah. So I'm goin on the whim that if lucious or draco haven't said anything, then Vold probably doesn't know

HPviolinist85
January 28th, 2005, 12:09 am
I think Proffessor Snape is a very cunning person. I don't know what his true intentions are, but something convinces me that Voldemort thinks that Snape is very loyal to him. He is absolutely horrible to Harry and the Gryffindors and has the whole Slytherin attitude (and still favors Draco), he might have Voldemort convinced. Maybe he was even under a mask in the graveyard, who knows. Whatever he's doing, he is doing a really good job with it.

replacement
January 28th, 2005, 3:51 am
Who says Snape isn't just putting on a show for the Death Eaters kid's to make them think he is still apart of the Death Eaters. He could also be fooling the Death Eaters and Voldermort himself, maybe Voldermort was referring to someone else.

In the 4th book Voldermort say "And her we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in myu service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One who I believe has left me forever...He will be killed, of course....' From this quote, I am guessing the coward is Karkaroff and the one who has left has been assumed to be Snape. But what if it isn't snape, he could have maybe been talking about Crouch, since he was once accused of being a death eater...or maybe someone as far fetched as Rita Skitter? The gap is pretty wide.

Sharkgirl
January 28th, 2005, 4:07 am
OK. An awesome site if you want to get some theories on Snape is designerpotions.com
Voldemort does not know Snape is a spy. Snape was at the graveyard that night. I believe Voldemort is referring to Karkarov and Ludo Bagman. I also think Fudge fits in there somewhere.Snape Has this game played out pretty well so far. I believe it was Voldemort and Malfoy who planted Snape as a teacher at Hogwarts so he could spy on Dumbledore.

LadyBlack
January 28th, 2005, 4:17 am
I don't think Voldemort knows anything about Snape being a spy. Snape can keep Voldemort out of his mind. He is an expert Occlumens.

replacement
January 28th, 2005, 4:17 am
How do you know if he was at the graveyard that night? If i am correct, it doesn't mention that Snape is there and you would think Dumbledore would notice snape being gone.

kenmarekestrel
January 28th, 2005, 6:54 am
I think LV thinks that Snape is only sucking up to Dumbledore to get information for him. Snape outwardly loaths Harry and favours the death eaters kids so there would be no reason why info would be getting to him that Snape is on Harrys side. Just about everything Snape does for the Order can be explained away as being something he did for LV.

Basically, if LV knew Snape was spying for DD he would be dead.

The Pirate King
January 28th, 2005, 7:23 am
I think it's quite possible that both Dumbledore and Voldemort are aware of Snape being a double agent. Dumbledore trusts Snape to bring him accurate information about the other side; Voldemort probably trusts Snape to do exactly the same thing for him. If that's so, the question is: where do Snape's loyalties really lie? Is he for one side or the other--or is he loyal only to himself? (Reminds me of "The Dwarves are for the Dwarves" in C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle.)

I would not be surprised to find that Snape's primary loyalty is to, well, Severus Snape. It would be a thoroughly Slytherin thing to do--practical, cunning, and playing outside the rules.

Kratos
January 28th, 2005, 8:16 pm
Voldemort is not stupid. He knows, via Crouch Jr., that Snape was revealed to have been a spy for Dumbledore during the first war by none other than Dumbledore himself. Peter Pettigrew has also been watching Snape for years and he's seen Snape do things the Dark Lord would most definitely not approve of. In Harry's first year, Snape was knowingly trying to stop Quirrel from reviving his master. Voldemort did not choose to have Snape help him; he chose Quirrel. Voldemort was on the back of Quirrel's head during all those times Snape was threatening Quirrel. Voldemort saw Snape save Harry's life during that Quidditch match when Quirrel attempted to dislodge Potter from his broom.

C'mon, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Voldy is fully aware of Snape's treachery, and it is precisely for that reason that I am convinced that he would never accept Snape back into his service.

atherella
January 28th, 2005, 8:25 pm
How do you know if he was at the graveyard that night? If i am correct, it doesn't mention that Snape is there and you would think Dumbledore would notice snape being gone.

Unless DD wanted him to be there. :huh:

It didn't mention that Snape was there, you're correct. However, it was stated in the books that LV did not address all the DE who were present, which means that there is a possibility that Snape was there, and for whatever reason, did not address Snape.


I think it's quite possible that both Dumbledore and Voldemort are aware of Snape being a double agent.

Ok, since we're in a new version of this thread, I'll post a link again to the really intriguing Double00-Sevie (http://www.redhen-publications.com/Double00Sevie.html) which did a great job of explaining how it could all be possible. I won't go into anymore details now, but let people who haven't seen it have a chance to read through it. It's long, but well worth the read.


As for wondering if Snape was in the graveyard (which I suspect he may have been), I just wanted to link a thread in case anyone wants to either discuss the topic there, or use it for reference. It's an interesting thread. :)

Was Snape in the graveyard after all? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=12599&highlight=graveyard)

what? i always thought that snape was the one voldemort was referring to when he said something like "another left us and he will pay". didn't he? and there's no reason for him not to know, when lucius and snape are..well, in my opinion, in good terms?

There's a great thread discussing The Three Missing Death Eaters (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=22246&highlight=missing+death+eaters) that you may enjoy. It discusses who the three people in question may be. :)

coljoo
January 28th, 2005, 9:30 pm
Its plain and simple, If Voldemort knew Snape was a spy he would have killed him already

conquest
January 28th, 2005, 9:37 pm
Voldemort is not stupid. He knows, via Crouch Jr., that Snape was revealed to have been a spy for Dumbledore during the first war by none other than Dumbledore himself. Peter Pettigrew has also been watching Snape for years and he's seen Snape do things the Dark Lord would most definitely not approve of. In Harry's first year, Snape was knowingly trying to stop Quirrel from reviving his master. Voldemort did not choose to have Snape help him; he chose Quirrel. Voldemort was on the back of Quirrel's head during all those times Snape was threatening Quirrel. Voldemort saw Snape save Harry's life during that Quidditch match when Quirrel attempted to dislodge Potter from his broom.

C'mon, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Voldy is fully aware of Snape's treachery, and it is precisely for that reason that I am convinced that he would never accept Snape back into his service.

http://www.redhen-publications.com/Coward-Oathbreaker.htmlhttp://www.redhen-publications.com/Coward-Oathbreaker.html

it's a really interesting theory on the whole snape being a spy thing. Thoroughly enjoyed on my part :tu:

Kratos
January 29th, 2005, 1:15 am
Its plain and simple, If Voldemort knew Snape was a spy he would have killed him already

How? Snape is never anywhere near him.

MagicMuggle
January 29th, 2005, 1:28 am
This was posted in the thread: Can Snape Really Be Trusted? v.2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=44179) I thought it might be of some relevence! :)

I've kind of got a feeling that Voldemort knows Snape is with the Order but is keeping this information to himself for some reason, so Lucius actually does think Snape is still supporting Voldemort. But why would Voldemort keep this information to himself??? If anyone agrees, can they help me back it up? Actually I think this is very probable, if not true... If you're the kind of person who believes that Snape wasn't in the graveyard, (I believe that this ties in.) The one who has 'left him forever, who will eventually die of course' could be Snape. I think Voldemort is keeping Snape around until the end so he could possible catch something if Snape slipped up. Either than that, he has a source driectly involved in the Order, if he were to kill it off, Voldemort would be in the dark with no possible way to find out what's going on. I believe Dumbledore is instructing Snape to let little things slip once and a while to ensure Snape's safety and trust with Voldemort. Snape may be in more trouble than he thinks! Truth be told, I didn't feel like re-typing it all out again! :D hehe! Thoughts? :huh:

MigratingBird
January 29th, 2005, 1:46 am
Hi MagicMuggle, me and you seem to think alike cos I was just gonna re-post my idea here! This is slightly off topic, but how can I read your posts properly? They're too wide for my screen. (Sorry for the aside, folks, please continue...)

HPGoddess101
January 29th, 2005, 2:48 am
I think Voldemort does know. I'm pretty sure he does even though I don't know why. I guess its just that Voldy knows a lot of things.

destiney
January 30th, 2005, 1:26 pm
In GOF, Voldemort said he believed a death eater to be gone forever, and that he would probably kill him. Im pretty sure he was talking about snape, because as far as Harry saw, Snape was not there. But it seems that snape has gone to voldemort later on, possibly soothing the dark lords fears by saying something like "i couldn't leave or dumbeldore would get suspicious."
So either voldemort knows and is using snape, which doesn't seem all that likely to me, or voldemort was convinced by snapes excuse. Remember Voldemort is good at telling when someone is lying, but snape is an expert at occlumency, perhaps so good he could fool voldemort.

This is what i believe that snape did turn up later on (maybe on dumbledores orders) so that he could explain to voldemort that he couldnt leave because dumbledoore would be suspicious, because im sure snape would be dead before this time. Maybe snape hasnt had the big jobs for voldemort because he wants him later on and dont want him to spoil his cover. But i think if he wanted snape dead he would of already done it because he couldnt get any information out of him from the order because he is too good at occulmary. I have always assumed this but i dont know where from? But this is my idea any way and yes people can properly show me up as being wrong but oh well. :blush:

HPGOD
January 30th, 2005, 1:46 pm
In OoTf They say somthing about snape working really hard for the order, so his probabling fooling the dark lord.

BelfiCat
January 31st, 2005, 5:21 pm
From what I can see, Voldie MUST know that Snape has gone over to the good side. In GoF, Snape never showed up to the death eater circle at the end. Voldie said that there were three people missing, (if I can remember correctly) one was dead in his service, one was too cowardly to return (Karkaroff) and one had left his service forever. he would be killed. This is most probably Snape. But still, he isn't killed! Why? And how is he still getting information? He hasn't been going to death eater meetings, so why do other Death Eaters such as Lucius Malfroy give him information? Hasn't Voldie told them that Snape is not to be trusted? And this made me think, what has Snape done exactly so Dumbledore does trust him? All of this seems to be connected together, a reason why Voldie hasn't killed Snape, why dumbledore trusts him, and why the death eaters still give him information. Maybe there was something personal taht happened between the three of them years back, that Voldie is to ashamed to admit? Oh, and back to when he said in GoF, 'he will be killed' maybe this was just a threat he was making, to scare the other death eaters from wanting to turn away as well? Maybe he was only scaring them, but didn't actually mean to kill Snape, because, come on, why hasn't he yet? Unless Snape spends all of his time at Hogwarts where Voldie can't get to him, and then lets face it, how'd he talk to the Malfroys?

subtle science
February 15th, 2005, 11:09 pm
atherella suggested I drop by here after the discussion in Young Severus Snape veered way off topic. We'd been discussing Snape's relationship with Karkaroff and where/how they may have known each other, and it rather went off from there...

What struck me in that discussion was that Karkaroff is undeniably a DE, and he's on the loose after GoF. He gave up Snape's name once, in an attempt to save himself at Crouch's council hearing. It seems entirely likely to me that he will be more than willing to do it again, only this time to Voldemort, who obviously plans to punish, if not kill, Karkaroff:

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service" (GoF, p. 651, US paper).

When I first read GoF, I immediately assumed that Snape was the one who'd left and would be killed. However, the start of OotP put paid to that idea, as he was clearly alive and well and spying on Voldemort, unsuspected. Karkaroff was the coward; Crouch, Jr., even identifies himself as the faithful one. Of the other characters in GoF, the logical one who has left forever is Ludo Bagman.

So Karkaroff the coward does have a valuable piece of information--much more valuable than his list of names was the first time around in the Penseive scenes. He may well be able to buy himself out of trouble with Voldemort by trading Snape's name once more. He certainly is an untrustworthy character--I've compared him to Peter Pettigrew in his weakness and his willingness to grovel to those in power....He also has something in common with Kreacher, who also has the information that Snape is a member of the Order and no loyalty to anyone in the order whatsoever.

No, Voldemort doesn't know Snape is a spy...yet. But I think he's about to find out...And I don't think he's going to be very happy............

The other Jo
February 16th, 2005, 2:41 am
atherella suggested I drop by here after the discussion in Young Severus Snape veered way off topic. We'd been discussing Snape's relationship with Karkaroff and where/how they may have known each other, and it rather went off from there...

What struck me in that discussion was that Karkaroff is undeniably a DE, and he's on the loose after GoF. He gave up Snape's name once, in an attempt to save himself at Crouch's council hearing. It seems entirely likely to me that he will be more than willing to do it again, only this time to Voldemort, who obviously plans to punish, if not kill, Karkaroff:

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service" (GoF, p. 651, US paper).

When I first read GoF, I immediately assumed that Snape was the one who'd left and would be killed. However, the start of OotP put paid to that idea, as he was clearly alive and well and spying on Voldemort, unsuspected. Karkaroff was the coward; Crouch, Jr., even identifies himself as the faithful one. Of the other characters in GoF, the logical one who has left forever is Ludo Bagman.

So Karkaroff the coward does have a valuable piece of information--much more valuable than his list of names was the first time around in the Penseive scenes. He may well be able to buy himself out of trouble with Voldemort by trading Snape's name once more. He certainly is an untrustworthy character--I've compared him to Peter Pettigrew in his weakness and his willingness to grovel to those in power....He also has something in common with Kreacher, who also has the information that Snape is a member of the Order and no loyalty to anyone in the order whatsoever.

No, Voldemort doesn't know Snape is a spy...yet. But I think he's about to find out...And I don't think he's going to be very happy............
How does Karkaroff know Snape is spying against Voldemort. The only piece of information he has is that Dumbledore vouched for him. I think this is exactly what Voldemort wanted. Voldemort wanted Dumbledore to believe Snape had changed sides. What Voldemort doesn't know is that Snape really has.

tarachristwen
February 16th, 2005, 4:47 am
i guess so cos lord voldemort is a legillimens,right?

and he can know almost right away when people lie to him..

MigratingBird
February 16th, 2005, 4:42 pm
i guess so cos lord voldemort is a legillimens,right?

and he can know almost right away when people lie to him..


Yes, but Snape is an excellent Occulumens remember. I honestly think this is one of the biggest issues of the whole series - who is Snape really working for? Whenever I try to answer it I talk myself round in circles cos all the evidence we have can be interpreted either way. I think a very important point to remember is that the masks the Dementors wear mean they are unaware of who all their co-DEs are. Whether Snape was in the circle at the end of GoF or not I'm unsure, but I AM sure that Lucius Malfoy thinks he was there.

An interesting aside to this discussion, Snape wasn't present at the battle at the MoM. This suggests the Order are desperate to keep it quiet that he is working with them. It also suggests that the DEs think he is spying on Dumbledore for them, as they don't make any comment about his absence on their side. (Wow this is confusing!) What do others think?

crystal_joy
February 16th, 2005, 5:07 pm
MigratingBird

As much as I would like to say I think Snape is on the good side, I think Snape may just be a true Slytherin... he does what is best for himself. I may be wrong, but I'm just speculating. At this point, niether side (good or evil) really has the upper-hand, I think Snape is just walking the fence at the moment. Although his loyalties to seem to be with Dumbledore, we've never seen him interacting with Voldemort to know if he's the same way. At the end of GoF, I thought Snape was definitely on the good side because of the way he was reacting about Voldemort being back, but then again if he is walking the "neutral" route, I imagine he would still be scared about Voldemort's return.

And like you pointed out, both sides seem to be "hiding" the fact that he is on their side.

Princess_Sara
February 16th, 2005, 5:14 pm
I have no idea. Dumbledore did say at Karkoff's trial that Snape had turned spy on Riddle, but I don't know if Riddle ever. If that is the case, then Snape isn't helping the Order by spying on Riddle for Dumbledore. I hope Voldemort doesn't know that Snape is a spy, otherwise Snape wouldn't be that useful to him.

atherella
February 16th, 2005, 5:26 pm
As much as I would like to say I think Snape is on the good side, I think Snape may just be a true Slytherin... he does what is best for himself. I may be wrong, but I'm just speculating. At this point, niether side (good or evil) really has the upper-hand, I think Snape is just walking the fence at the moment. Although his loyalties to seem to be with Dumbledore, we've never seen him interacting with Voldemort to know if he's the same way. At the end of GoF, I thought Snape was definitely on the good side because of the way he was reacting about Voldemort being back, but then again if he is walking the "neutral" route, I imagine he would still be scared about Voldemort's return.

And like you pointed out, both sides seem to be "hiding" the fact that he is on their side.

Hi crystal_joy,

I wanted to give you a link to a really interesting article that was written by the Red Hen Guy (he does some pretty in depth HP essay/articles). It's called Double-00 Sevie, and discusses the idea that Snape is working both sides, much like what you suggested. It also gives details on how Snape could pull this off, given the information we know. I'd highly recommend the read, especially since your ideas seem to mesh pretty well with his. I think you'd like it, and it might help solidify some of your ideas. Actually, I'd recommend it to anyone who is on the fence concerning Snape. It's pretty long, but well worth the read. I bookmarked it and read it at my leisure. :)

Double-00 Sevie (http://www.redhen-publications.com/Double00Sevie.html)


Enjoy! :)

crystal_joy
February 16th, 2005, 5:45 pm
Thank you atherella. :)

atherella
February 16th, 2005, 6:30 pm
No problem. I hope you really enjoy it and will share your thoughts on it if you read it. :)

Chance
February 17th, 2005, 4:30 am
Hi everyone. I think several of you have hit it right on the button: Snape is working for no one but himself. Several thoughts, though...

No matter who's side Snape really is on, Voldie being back is really bad news for him. There are only two options he has available: to completely and openly throw his support behind Dumbledore and hope DD can protect him, or to play the double agent role both ways and convince both DD and LV that he is really on their side. I have ruled out openly declaring himself for LV because Snape knows better than to trust LV. However, he also knows he CAN trust DD, assuming he truly throws in his lot with DD (that, more than anything, may ultimately decide who's side he is on). Now, knowing Snape as we do, I think it extremely unlikely for him to throw his lot in openly with DD. Mostly because then he'd be screwed if LV won. He's going to have to find himself a way to be on the winning side no matter what happens. That means playing both sides. And further, making himself valuable to both sides.

To complicate the matter, think about this... Snape may be very clever, but I think DD and LV are more clever. It would not surprise me at all to learn that both DD and LV know exactly what Snape is doing. So why, you ask, has neither killed Snape? Because they're using him. They realize that Snape acting in his best self-interest benefits them. Now here is the tricky part... Snape's acting in his own self-interest benefits both DD and LV at the same time. How does this work? Simple... Snape isn't going to to do anything to jeopardize his position as long as the outcome of a struggle between DD's forces and LV's forces is still up in the air. Both DD and LV know Snape, understand how he thinks and what motivates him, thus they know that this is absolutely the case. So, while that is the case, neither DD nor LV has anything to fear from Snape. However, the situation gets interesting when one side starts to have the upper hand, because this is when Snape will make his move. And it is also why both DD and LV want to keep Snape alive. At this point, Snape will be in the perfect position to deliever a crippling blow to the losing side. It's sort of like a game of chicken between DD and LV. They're both gambling, but they understand perfectly the piece they're gambling with. They know exactly what Snape will do, they just have to concentrate on other events to force him to do what they want. This also explains why LV keeps Snape out of the loop on some things. He doesn't want Snape to learn of any vulnerabilities he may have.

Ironically enough, while people might be wondering why Snape hasn't died yet, it may very well be that Snape is the safest person in the whole series.

Also, I can think of all sorts of other reasons besides the above to not kill Snape. Snape may very well have convinced each one that he is on their side. He's been playing this game for a long time now, he's pretty good at it. And he knows he's valuable. Or, there is always the value of passing dis-information to the other side. DD and/or LV could suspect that Snape has betrayed them, but keep him around for the express reason of passing bad information to the other side. They could set all sorts of nasty traps this way.

Also, I think it is an exercise in futility to try and match Snape up with one of the missing DEs LV mentions, because we just don't know enough. We don't know if he was there, but we also don't know if he wasn't. He was suspiciously absent from the 3rd task and we don't see him again until after Harry returns. Also, for an alternative explanation... who says Karkarov is necessarily the one too cowardly to return? What if he's the one who left forever? Or vice versa? They both fit him. And neiher really fit Snape, though each one could be twisted a bit to fit Snape. Snape is neither a coward nor one to burn bridges behind him.

The last, and damning, bit of evidence is actually a piece of non-evidence... Snape is NEVER anywhere near a situation which would unambiguously declare him for one side or the other. JKR definitely does this on purpose, and I can see no other logical reason except that Snape is all for himself.

ETA: Oh yeah... I don't think that Karkaroff naming Snape a DE and DD then supporting Snape as one of the good guys means a thing. As a matter of fact, it probably made Voldie extremely happy. Assuming that Voldemort believes Snape is on his side, then he really really wants DD to believe in Snape. I mean, you want your spy to be successful, don't you?

wizkid6
February 17th, 2005, 4:56 am
Ok this is what I think.

Snape thinks he is a double agent but in his heart he favors Dumbledore. I believe this because an important theme in all of the HP books is trust (Hagrid, Lupin, etc.) and how it pays off. Dumbledore in this case is daring Snape to join LV during his "missions". From what I gather, Snape still has honor left in him (A kind of corrupt life debt to James) so he will think he has joined LV but will turn to Dumbledore in the last second upholding it.

smiling_shan
February 18th, 2005, 2:06 am
Snape is an excellent Occulumens and i don't think that LV knows that snape is a spy. We have to remember that there were about a dozen DE in the graveyard in GOF, and Snape could have been one of them, because Harry described them as all wearing hooded cloaks.

simplybecky
February 18th, 2005, 2:08 am
As it seems clear that Snape is a double-agent, I think that both Voldemort and Dumbledore would have to know that he was a spy. I think the real question is whether or not either of them knows which side Snape's really on.

Merchieftain
February 19th, 2005, 1:16 pm
Let's face it. If snape is a spy, then logic tells us that he must be deceiving either Voldemort or Dumbledore. I know there's lots of debate about which side he's really on, but the fact is he has to be extremely good at Occlumency to fool either one since they are the two strongest wizards just about of all time. And he MUST be fooling at least one of them. I think that Voldemort believes that Snape is really his servant and that all the other stuff like Voldemort testifying on his behalf at karkaroff's trial is all part of the deception. I think that voldemort even hides snape's role from the other death-eaters. but ultimately, i think voldemort will be proven wrong as snape's true loyalty is to dumbledore.

Fawkesified
February 19th, 2005, 6:59 pm
I'm genuinely surprised that this thread is so popular - isn't it a bit obvious that if Snape is a spy (which he probably is) and Voldemort knows then Snape would be a bit dead? I can think of no reason for Voldemort to keep him alive, knowing he was a spy - OK he could use him to pass false information to Dumbledore, but I doubt Dumbledore would be fooled easily.

soccergirl506
February 20th, 2005, 2:41 pm
In my opinion, if Voldemort knew Snape was a spy, Snape would most definatly be dead already. I'm pretty sure Voldemort doesn't tolerate spies.

LowKi
February 20th, 2005, 4:53 pm
In my opinion, if Voldemort knew Snape was a spy, Snape would most definatly be dead already. I'm pretty sure Voldemort doesn't tolerate spies.

But Voldermort isn't stupid , and he knows he's not ready to try and take over again yet. Currently Snape is more useful alive then he is dead, I imagine he's quite a source of information to Voldermort whether Snape knows it or not.

Psammead
February 20th, 2005, 5:04 pm
Hmm, I think that if Voldemort knew that Snape was a spy he wouldn't necessarily kill him straight away. It could be more benefitial for him to pretend he trusts and believes Snape, that way he could be giving Snape false information, that would then be passed on to the Order and leading them astray.

chow mein
February 20th, 2005, 5:10 pm
Hmm, I think that if Voldemort knew that Snape was a spy he wouldn't necessarily kill him straight away. It could be more benefitial for him to pretend he trusts and believes Snape, that way he could be giving Snape false information, that would then be passed on to the Order and leading them astray.

I agree. :agree:

I believe Voldemort does know Snape is a spy - I see no reason for him not to. He was there when Snape threatened Quirrel in the first book - I think that's an indication that Snape isn't on his (Voldemort's) side.

Wickedgirl86
February 21st, 2005, 5:23 am
I think Snape was in that ciricle that night and he was one of those Voldemort passed by with out talking to. Maybe Voldemort thinks Snape is spying on Dumbledore for him. Thus Snape would be a dubble dubble spy. Each side thinking he was a spy for them. He wouldn't say anything to Snape knowning Harry was lessioning and, he didn't want Harry running of to tell Dumbleldore that Snape was still a Death Eater because then he could not use him as a spy. Get it?

chow mein
February 21st, 2005, 5:47 am
I think Snape was in that ciricle that night and he was one of those Voldemort passed by with out talking to. Maybe Voldemort thinks Snape is spying on Dumbledore for him. Thus Snape would be a dubble dubble spy. Each side thinking he was a spy for them. He wouldn't say anything to Snape knowning Harry was lessioning and, he didn't want Harry running of to tell Dumbleldore that Snape was still a Death Eater because then he could not use him as a spy. Get it?


Even if Snape was bypassed that night in the inner circle, it doesn't mean that Voldemort isn't on to him. He might not have said anything because he didn't want to let on that he knew Snape may be betraying him.

Dare Devil
February 21st, 2005, 12:14 pm
It should have been pretty easy for Snape to explain why he did not appear right away when Voldemort called the Death Eaters. All it would have taken would be for him to tell Voldemort that he was in a meeting with Dumbledore and that he did not want to raise Dumbledore's attention and suspicion by running out of the meeting. Dumbledore is the most powerfull wizard after all and I am sure that Voldemort would have accepted that explanation.

victoriakrum
February 21st, 2005, 8:01 pm
well....didnt voldemort say that there was "one who would never return" and that he would be killed? or maybe im just assuming he meant snape...who else could that be?

chow mein
February 22nd, 2005, 3:36 am
well....didnt voldemort say that there was "one who would never return" and that he would be killed? or maybe im just assuming he meant snape...who else could that be?

I took that to be Barty Crouch Sr. but I could be wrong about that :shrug:

chrisbll85
February 22nd, 2005, 3:44 pm
I think Voldermort know because in "Goblet of Fire" he said something about one death eater that will never return. And i think he was talking about Snape

Dusty
February 28th, 2005, 10:02 pm
While reading the tread, a few things hit me. Many people have discussed LV trusting his followers. Do you really think LV trusts anyone?
I honestly believe that he wouldn't trust even Barty Jr or the Lestranges if it came down to it. He believes himself to be the almighty wizard, and strikes me as the type who would "trust no-one". LV needs his followers, or the fear factor which gives him power in the wizarding world would decrease dramaticly. And there is no "great leader" without somone following anyway. He needs the DEs, but that doesn't mean he trusts them. Fear of him or no fear, everyone at every turn in the road still has choices to make. Both LV and DD are aware of this - I'm sure we will see some turncoats by the end off the HP series.

Also, even if LV knows that Snape is a spy, which is highly likely and probably set up by both LV and DD, if Lv believed Snapes loyalties were at question, he would bide his time in killing this traitor. Snape is too improtant. How easy would it to plant incorrect or misleading intel at a criticle time and send the Order off on a wild goose chase when they would otherwhys be the only thing in V's way? And now Harry's insticts will be in question after the demise of Sirius, not only by Harry, but possibly within the trio and the Order itself, so everyone would be tempted into double guessing.

As for the mind reading thing, Snape would have to let a few things slip, or LV and DD would know he was blocking them out. That in itself would raise suspicions wouldn't it?

MagicMuggle
February 28th, 2005, 10:40 pm
Do you really think LV trusts anyone? Honestly, I don't think Lord Voldemort trusts anyone. I think it's a matter of the question: Is the person he's using strong enough to carry out the task he has delegated to him or her?

What we have seen of Voldemort and the way he plots his plans, he doesn't confide eveything in one person all the time. He specifically tells people the limited information so they can do the task that is required of them. Personally, I think that's a very smart move on his part. (If I were rooting for his side. ;)) If you look at the beginning of the fourth book, we don't get the impression that Peter knows all the details of Voldemorts plan to squash Harry. He knows that he will be needed in the end, but I'm also assuming as time went on, Voldemort revealed bits and pieces to Peter as to what his task would be.

As for the mind reading thing, Snape would have to let a few things slip, or LV and DD would know he was blocking them out. That in itself would raise suspicions wouldn't it? Do you mean Snape letting small pieces of information slip during reports and meetings with Voldemort, or do you mean Snape would have to slip up a few times during the process in which he blocks his mind from Voldemort? (I think it's the first one. ;))

I believe that Snape does feed Voldemort pieces of true infotmation, but only under the instruction of Dumbledore. (Or vice versa if you believe Snape is a traitor! :p) It's logical to do so... It worked in WWII, why can't it work in a fictional book? :lol:

twinsrule26
March 1st, 2005, 4:31 am
Yes I Do there is lots of evidence out there to prove this like the trials from the first VW1. where Dumbledore vouches for Snape and many more good examples allready listed by too many others to list . HE knows but what can he do? Snape is at Hogwarts so how does Voldemort get to him? I believe Voldemort will kill Snape if he gets the chance but he will really have to work at it to get that chance !.

MugglyBrit
March 1st, 2005, 4:35 am
Yes. The end of Goblet of Fire made that clear. Even if Voldemort didn't figure it out when he was on the back of Quirrell's head in book one... He definately knows at the end of book 4. You could interpret Voldemort's "faithful servent at hogwarts" to mean Snape until we find out about Barty Crouch Jr. Snape is the one Voldemort fears will never return to him and whom he will have to kill.

candygirl1616
March 7th, 2005, 6:31 pm
for snapes sake i hope not. im pretty sure if he knew he would kill snape faster than u can say hogwarts.

myspeedofdark
March 7th, 2005, 7:10 pm
wasn't it karkarof voldy said he'd kill - not snape ...or did I interperate that wrong?
Im very tired -so sorry if its a glaringly easy question :)

alkhabass
March 7th, 2005, 7:14 pm
i dont know if some has already mentioned it coz i havnt read through all the posts.

i think LV does know b/c ...

1- snape didnt turn up to the comeback of LV in book 4.
2- he also sed that (dont know exact qoute)... 'some one has left me forever he will die' i think he was reffering to snape... maybe Karakoff

Ankaa
March 7th, 2005, 8:26 pm
I have a question--and it's probably very stupid of me not to have figured this out already. It pertains to the fact that Harry under his inivisibility cloak saw Snape admonishing Quirrell in the hallway after dark--basically threatening him to stay away from the Philosopher's Stone. Can we safely assume that at this point, Quirrell was completely possessed by Voldemort? What I mean to say is that if Voldemort possessed Quirrell at this point, wouldn't he already know that Snape was looking after Dumbledore's interests and not those of Death Eaters anymore? If this is true, then there can be no doubt that Voldemort already knows that Snape has betrayed him and is indeed the one "who will never return." I could be making a big mistake here, so correct me if I'm wrong.

BobTTurtle13013
March 13th, 2005, 10:07 pm
There is several times that Voldemort has noticed when people have lied. So I think the whole thing is very dangerous territory.

Freds_Twin
March 13th, 2005, 11:01 pm
no because I do not think Snape ever really crossed over to the good side. But if he did,Voldemort would probably know.

MissingOctober
March 13th, 2005, 11:07 pm
I'm not sure about if Voldemort knows or not. :sigh: I've always wondered, but I've never had any firm idea. If Voldemort does know, then he simply enjoys stringing our favorite Potions Professor along. Then again, who wouldn't love that.:elaugh: If he doesn't know, then we know that he will be extremely angry with Snape, thus wanting to kill him. Perhaps Dumbeldore will come in the rescue for Snape, not Harry. :D Well, Harry can handle his own, obviously, but can Severus?

hgrwfan
March 13th, 2005, 11:12 pm
Don't know if this question has been asked and already answered. How exactly is Snape spying on LV then if he is not posing as the faithful death eater?

MagicMuggle
March 14th, 2005, 12:33 am
Don't know if this question has been asked and already answered. How exactly is Snape spying on LV then if he is not posing as the faithful death eater? I was under the assumption that he was posing as a faithful Death Eater ever since Dumbledore said to Snape in the fourth book, "You know what you must do..." or something along those lines. Anyways, Snape turned pale and left the room. I always thought he went to make amends with Voldemort. :huh:

chocofroggy
March 14th, 2005, 12:40 am
I really don't think that Voldemort knows, otherwise Snape would have been dead by now. Voldemort isn't exactly the forgiving type, is he? This seems a little weird, and sorry if someone already posted it, but what if Voldemort is making Snape play spy for him? Like, Snape is feeding the Order wrong information but bringing back the Order's information to Voldemort? But if Snape is a spy, i doubt Voldemort knows about it.

GryffondorGrl
March 14th, 2005, 2:44 am
It would almost seem like Voldemort would have to know, I mean Lucius knows things about Snape and sees him and likes him, and Voldemort knows things about him too. But then why would Voldemort know he was a spy and not kill him, unless he was in actuality a spy on Dumbledore for Voldemort...it's possible, but sounds too likely I think.

FireSlytherin
March 14th, 2005, 3:54 am
Knowing voldemort he has his ways and he knows that Snape is a spy or at least has his supicions. He just want to keep toying with everyone and make them think that he dosen't know anything. I think dumbldore knows deep down that voldemort knows something.

Dusty
March 14th, 2005, 4:23 am
I have a question--and it's probably very stupid of me not to have figured this out already. It pertains to the fact that Harry under his inivisibility cloak saw Snape admonishing Quirrell in the hallway after dark--basically threatening him to stay away from the Philosopher's Stone. Can we safely assume that at this point, Quirrell was completely possessed by Voldemort? What I mean to say is that if Voldemort possessed Quirrell at this point, wouldn't he already know that Snape was looking after Dumbledore's interests and not those of Death Eaters anymore? If this is true, then there can be no doubt that Voldemort already knows that Snape has betrayed him and is indeed the one "who will never return." I could be making a big mistake here, so correct me if I'm wrong.


There's no such thing as a stupid question - if you've thought it through first!
My belief is that Quirrell wasn't completely possessed, given the fact that LV was able to leave the body to eat of the unicarn blood. Quirrel was a "host" to the LV "parasite". If LV gad been fully in control of Quirell, why would he need the stone? Quirrell as a person/soul would have just been killed off or silienced as a weaker being... As for the Conversation where Snape asks Quirrel to decide which side he is really on, it works both ways. He could have been asking if he was on the side of the DE's as Quirrell's efforts to obtain the stone had all been foiled. Snape could have been implying Quirrell was doing it on purpose. Snape could also have been prompting Quirrell to follow DD's lead. I believe Jo has made this ambiguous on purpose, and not just for PS, but also for later in the series. First we thought Snape was a bad guy, then a good guy. Any assumption made could be proven wrong in the next two books.

My book is elsewhere right now, but can someone remind me if Snape went to the MoM to fight the death eaters? Because either scenario would be rather telling. If he did go, LV would definately know Snape was with the Order right? And if he didn't go, it would be to keep his cover from being blown...

kathphphphp
March 14th, 2005, 6:20 am
About voldemort being at the back of quirrel's head.. i think there could still be a possibility that voldemort still doesn't know that snape is the spy.. i think snape knew that quirrel was serving lv that time so that's why he was doing things that could make quirrel believe that he is on his side.. right? :huh: i mean, to me, he seemed quite discreet in the philosopher's stone..that's why harry and even i suspected him that he was the one trying to get to the stone. i think that goes the same with lucius malfoy.. it seems really weird but i can't still really believe why snape is so 'mate-y' with lucius.. :sad:
hey..is it really already certain that snape wasn't one of the cloaked figures in the 4th book in the graveyard? sometimes i believe that he was there.. and for some reason, i think he secretly even helped harry escape :eyebrows: or maybe not.. what do you think?
well.. if it is so..my, snape is really brilliant. i mean, being a spy until now w/o voldemort knowing..
but still, i really thought snape was the one voldie was referring to when he said "the one who left me forever and would die".. and "the one who is too coward to return" as karkaroff.

PlaceboAddict
March 14th, 2005, 6:48 am
Just a quick note - I kind of view Dumbledore and Voldemort at the same level, on opposite sides - Dumbledore being a little higher, of course. They're both leaders, they're both exceptionally powerful, and both very smart. I'd be equally surprised to find out Snape's betraying either one of them, and surprised that neither of them knew about it. Snape outwitting either Dumbledore or Voldemort is an accomplishment in itself...

howwillitend
March 14th, 2005, 7:18 am
No, I do not think LV is aware that Snape is a spy. A trader perhaps but I just dont think he knows of his spying habbits.lol. I think Snape is a spy for DD, however, I do not believe he just walks into a room full of DE's and pretends to be one of them either. I think he has another way of spying and perhaps this is why he has not been killed by LV. He hasn't gotten caught.....yet Perhaps this is why JK says she can not tell his boggart or patronus form. Also I know the whole Animagus thing has been done but, perhaps he is one and that is how he spys without being detected.

hotharry
March 18th, 2005, 6:29 pm
If he did would Snape still be alive? I say no, so Voldermort doesn't know Snapes a spy.

Zorro
March 26th, 2005, 2:13 pm
I don't know how Voldemort would not know that Snape was a spy. In PS, Voldemort was with Quirrel, even when Snape was trying to put Quirrel off of stealing the stone. How could Voldemort not have known Snape loyalties after that??
I have two reasons as to why Voldemort would not have killed Snape though.
1) He is planning to feed him false information, or
2) Snape is getting his information from Lucius Malfoy (I think it is implied more than once that Snape and Lucius are friends)

Ginevra_W
March 26th, 2005, 3:10 pm
I agree with Zorro. There are so many times where Voldemort could have found out. Quirrel, Lucius, Karkaroff, and even Harry if he could have gotten far enough into his mind. Although, does Dumbledore say that Voldemort isn't reading Harry's thoughts, just giving him false info?

Well, whatever. I think Voldemort is planning to use Snape's position under Dumbledore to his advantage, though whether Snape is aware and in compliance I don't know, nor whether Voldemort will be successful.

But, quick question! If Snape and Lucius are friends, does that mean that Lucius isn't really that loyal to Voldemort? And that there is a chance he might even turn away? I'm confused as to what Snape and Lucius's relationship would mean....

MagicMuggle
March 26th, 2005, 3:50 pm
But, quick question! If Snape and Lucius are friends, does that mean that Lucius isn't really that loyal to Voldemort? And that there is a chance he might even turn away? I'm confused as to what Snape and Lucius's relationship would mean....I don't think Snape and Lucius's relationship means that Lucuis isn't loyal to Voldemort. I just think that they were buddies during their Death Eater time, and now that Draco began to go to school, I think Lucius wanted to befriend Snape in order to make sure Draco does well in Slytherin. Besides, I don't see Lucius as the type to turn away from Voldemort because he is too cowardly, and he does like to totrure muggles, just look at the Quidditch World Cup. He doesn't like muggleborns, and we know he carries loads of dark objects in his house. I think their friendship just came from their death eating years together. :)

HermioneLuvsRon
March 26th, 2005, 4:02 pm
He has to. In GoF, he was naming all the people who were missing in the circle.

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in me service. One, too cowardly to return..he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever..he will be killed of course...and one who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reenterd my service."

"One...too cowardly to return"-is Karkaroff (sp?)
"One, who I believe has left me forever"-is Snape.

He knows that he will not come back, and he has to know that he is working for Dumbledore...I think he says so later...I may be wrong about this though...

I am pretty sure that he does know that Snape is a spy. :p

Zorro
March 26th, 2005, 4:34 pm
At one time, I was wondering if Snape was even nastier to Harry (besides THE grudge against his father) so that he could convincingly associate with people like the Malfoys. I know it is a bit of a stretch, but in all honesty, it is possible for the Malfoy's to not know where Snapes loyalties are (we don't even know for sure, although we assume he is on the 'good' side).
I think it was in OotP, where Harry mentions Snape's friendship with Lucius, and Snape looks either shocked, surprised, concerned (I can't remember which ... sorry!)
I thought this was a suspicious reaction nonetheless.

Ginevra_W
March 26th, 2005, 4:49 pm
I just wondered what exactly that would amount to. If they are friends, and are on opposing sides, and Voldemort believes Snape a deserter, then surely Lucius would know it is foolhardy to have an allegience to someone opposing his Lord?

Similarly, if Lucius is definitely the full blown Death Eater we assume, then surely Snape realises it would be foolhardy on his part. For starters, there are many hints that Dumbledore knows where Lucius's loyalties lie, so why would he let Snape create a weakness in Harry's protection? And, Snape's not stupid. If he really is good, he would know it would be well within Lucius's capabilites (and lack of morals) to put him under the Imperius curse. Would he take that risk?

If they are friends, then doesn't that mean one of them is not as loyal to his side as he claims to be??

Zorro
March 26th, 2005, 5:14 pm
I just wondered what exactly that would amount to. If they are friends, and are on opposing sides, and Voldemort believes Snape a deserter, then surely Lucius would know it is foolhardy to have an allegience to someone opposing his Lord?

Similarly, if Lucius is definitely the full blown Death Eater we assume, then surely Snape realises it would be foolhardy on his part. For starters, there are many hints that Dumbledore knows where Lucius's loyalties lie, so why would he let Snape create a weakness in Harry's protection? And, Snape's not stupid. If he really is good, he would know it would be well within Lucius's capabilites (and lack of morals) to put him under the Imperius curse. Would he take that risk?

If they are friends, then doesn't that mean one of them is not as loyal to his side as he claims to be??

That is a very good point. I really don't know. Even the possibility that Snape is only pretending to be Lucius' friend and really just using him wouldn't answer this problem.
Perhaps Lucius is not trusted enough by Voldemort to be informed about what he thinks. Snape does have a very convincing disguise/story. I mean, we are wondering how faithful he is to DD, so surely he could convince Lucius that he is on Voldemorts side.
Oh, the part about the imperius curse I can speculate about. Snape obviously has a strong mind. He is good at Occlumency and Legala..whatever. Throwing off an imperius curse should not be a problem for him, nor the ability to close off his 'incriminating memories' etc. for Voldemort.
Just taking a few stabs in the dark here. I really don't know..

RINGO
March 26th, 2005, 5:24 pm
Hard question to answer,but I think that he cant know,otherwise,why not kill him,make an example of him to all the other DE's and to Dumbledore,I mean,if we are all led to believe that Snape goes to a lot of meetings,then TDL has an oppertunity then..
Going back to GofF,the cemetry scene,I do beleive that TDL was talking about Snape,but as to which one of those comments were for him,I don't know,but at the end of the book,remember when Dumbledore asks Snape to do something for him,If he was ready,then I do think that was when he had to go back to TDL...
We will,I am sure,soon find out what Snape is all about,and where his true loyalties lie..
Roll on the book...

Ginevra_W
March 26th, 2005, 5:42 pm
Oooh, I'd never thought about that! Snape's job was infiltrating back in. Or maybe I had but had just forgotten that I had, but it's exciting none the less. And Zorro, you're right :tu: . Snape would be able to double-bluff Voldemort and Lucius without much of a problem. Though, I'm not so sure Dumbledore would be so easy to fool. :huh: Ah, the questions!

Bring on 16th July! :rotfl:

LoopyLupin
March 27th, 2005, 8:13 am
From where I sit, there are 5 possibilities to the Snape mystery.


1. Snape is Spying for DD only, and is fully entrenched on the good side.
2. Snape is Spying for Voldy only, and is fully entrenched on the evil side.
3. Snape is spying for both parties, but is fully committed to DD.
4. Snape is spying for both parties, but is fully committed to VD.
5. Snape is spying, but in some sort of limbo, not having come to a clear decsion about where his true loyalties lie (i.e. sitting on the fence).

Now in conjunction with those, there are a few options regarding Voldie's knowledge of the situation (assuming Snape is for DD).


1. He knows Snape is a spy and wants him killed straight up.
2. He knows Snape is a spy and loyal to DD but thinks it is wiser to use him to misdirect DD.
3. He does not know at all.
4. He knows Snape spys for DD but he thinks Snape's loyalties still lie with him (aka "he's a double spy truly working for me").

I could flesh out my ideas, but frankly I would only be parroting what most others have said.

My personal opinion is that number 3 and 4 is true. The evidence that Snape is in cahoots with L. Malfoy seems to imply that he hasn't been cut off from VD completely, or else why would Malfoy (Young and old) associate with him? Hmm.....maybe Voldie is telling Lucious to give Snape rotten information? Interesting.

In addition, we have the SWM scene in the OTP to confirm on some level that Snape is finding out what Voldie is telling his death eaters. This implies some closeness on some level, unless he is doing something weird like using a polyjuice potion. If Voldie wanted him dead, he couldn't get information because he wouldn't be able to get close enough to obtain that info.


There is a bunch more I could say, but I am tired right now. Later all.

nemapasara
March 27th, 2005, 12:07 pm
I believe Voldemort knows he's a spy because in Book 4 in the graveyard, Voldemort pronounced that their were like one traitors and two that ran away or something. It happened when he was giving his oh so great speech to his Death Eaters. If Voldemort can find that out then he can most certainly find out if Snape's a spy. Also Vodemort could've had someone spy on Snape, but probably not a possibility for he wouldn't waste his time finding something about one Death Eater who was no importance to him other than fight for him. But maybe Snape was important because he could brew almost every existing potion out there. Voldemort could also torture his remaining Death Eaters to tell him where the other DEs were. Or maybe a DE told on him. it's a very high possibility that Voldemort could know of Snape's predicaments

winky22
March 27th, 2005, 4:30 pm
Yes i do think that V knows that snapey is a spy, he is a very powerful wizard he obviously knows that S is helping D as well. i'm sure he would try to kill him as well if he can get near him, Snape is a very powerfull wizard as well.

Don't kill Snape, i love him

OldLupin
March 30th, 2005, 5:55 pm
Snape did save Harry in SS/PS at the game. Snape has also been a spy for DD before. His actions were not in the DL's favor. In addition, as a deatheater he was probably aware of the DL's presence at Hogwarts especially when he was angered over the failed Troll insident.This would seem a problem, but in grand Slytherin tradition he can easily claim self-preservation as his motive and pledge loyalty back to the DL. As the DL hasn't yet recruited his forces he may use Snape in low risk ways until he is no longer needed or worthwhile and then he will plan to kill him for his obvious lack of loyalty. To understand those guys, think like a Sltherin.

hotharry
March 30th, 2005, 6:35 pm
Snape did save Harry in SS/PS at the game. Snape has also been a spy for DD before. His actions were not in the DL's favor. In addition, as a deatheater he was probably aware of the DL's presence at Hogwarts especially when he was angered over the failed Troll insident.This would seem a problem, but in grand Slytherin tradition he can easily claim self-preservation as his motive and pledge loyalty back to the DL. As the DL hasn't yet recruited his forces he may use Snape in low risk ways until he is no longer needed or worthwhile and then he will plan to kill him for his obvious lack of loyalty. To understand those guys, think like a Sltherin.

lol! You are totally right about thinking like a Slytherin. I think that is the best way to approach the subject, but I still think the Voldermort doesn't know.

lostday
March 30th, 2005, 6:53 pm
Both Dumbledore and Voldemort think that Snape is a spy for the other side. You'll notice that everything that he does that would make his loyalty to one side known can be explained by the double agent idea. For instance saving Harry in PS/SS could be explained to Voldemort by saying "If I didn't save him Dumbledore would have been suspicious that I was on his side, my lord, and I wouldn't have been able to get information,". Befriending the Malfoy's could be explained by saying "If I gave them the cold shoulder they would think I was not on their side, and then I couldn't spy on them for you, headmaster,"

Rachel Gibbons
March 30th, 2005, 6:57 pm
Duh?! YES, HE DOES!

LilCubanita67
March 30th, 2005, 7:03 pm
Both Dumbledore and Voldemort think that Snape is a spy for the other side.
Dumbledore stands firm in believing that Snape is on the good side. If Dumbledore thought for one second that Snape was on the other side he wouldn't have allowed him to join the Order and gain powerful information on the good side. If Dumbledore even had the slightest suspicion on Snape, there's no way that he would let him be in the Order of the Phoenix.

exiguusmus
March 30th, 2005, 7:16 pm
Great post from LoonyLupin:

From where I sit, there are 5 possibilities to the Snape mystery.


1. Snape is Spying for DD only, and is fully entrenched on the good side.
2. Snape is Spying for Voldy only, and is fully entrenched on the evil side.
3. Snape is spying for both parties, but is fully committed to DD.
4. Snape is spying for both parties, but is fully committed to VD.
5. Snape is spying, but in some sort of limbo, not having come to a clear decsion about where his true loyalties lie (i.e. sitting on the fence).

I can't see how 1 or 2 could be true. Snape would need to behave as if he were spying for either side for either Dumbledore or Voldemort to trust him. Surely he has to feed tidbits of info to build the trust, but not reveal too much info to jeopardise the side he is truly loyal to.
I would like to think that 5 isn't true - I just can't see how this is going work in practice.

Now in conjunction with those, there are a few options regarding Voldie's knowledge of the situation (assuming Snape is for DD).

1. He knows Snape is a spy and wants him killed straight up.
2. He knows Snape is a spy and loyal to DD but thinks it is wiser to use him to misdirect DD.
3. He does not know at all.
4. He knows Snape spys for DD but he thinks Snape's loyalties still lie with him (aka "he's a double spy truly working for me").

In response to this part of the post, I can't believe the first would be true - surely Snape would be dead already. Point 3 - I think Voldemort probably does know but we don't know what magic Dumbledore/Snape are using to protect Snape's duplicity emerging so whilst I doubt this is true, I can't quite bring myself to dismiss it.

Just a gut instinct, but I would like to think that Snape is on the side of good, however I think he will die working (spying or fighting) for the Order and it will only be at that point Harry realises where Snape's true loyalty lies.

Presuming of course that he actually is a spy...

ADPensive
March 31st, 2005, 5:28 am
I am 100% sure that Voldemort knows Snape is a spy. In Book 1 Snape threatend Quirrel and as we all know Quirrel said his master is always with him. This is so simple. This means when Snape threatend Quirrel he was with him.

tarachristwen
March 31st, 2005, 8:01 am
i'm pretty sure that he does know about it....

snape is just pretending to be lucius' friend in order to get some info from them...

Niffly
June 4th, 2005, 1:17 am
He must now.
I mean he is Voldemort, he knows everything about his Death Eaters, doesn't he? And in the OOTP he mensions that he 'll kill the one that left him for ever and Snape did left him... I think. But then again, Snape might be evil. Can he? Why Dumbledore trusts him so much? (ok, now I sound like Ron and you all probably know what Hermione would have answered! Duh!)
Even of Voldie doesn't currently suspects Snape, when he sees him (he's a spy, he must see him!) he' ll be able to read his mind, won't he? Ok, Snape might know Occlumency but Voldie has sooo many powers...

hotharry
June 8th, 2005, 6:59 pm
A question for all of you....If Voldermort does indeed know that Snape is a spy, then why doesn't he kill him? Voldermort must have a very good reason not to murder Snape for being a traitor. I think that Voldermort was refering to Karkoff when he taked about the traitor. Since Snape has a great excuse of..."I couldn't come because I work for Hogwarts under Dumbledore's nose. It would have been suspicious for me to leave especially since Potter know who I am." I guess from that you will all know that I don't think that Voldermort knows Snape is a Spy.

Either way I'm sure that it will all come out in the next two books. Something will happen. Voldermort will not take too lightly that one of his own beloved DE is a spy. That's why I want to know why he hasn't killed Snape if he does know and I can't think of any possible reasoning to keep Snape alive.

GirlX
June 8th, 2005, 7:33 pm
yes

amber_gem
June 8th, 2005, 8:25 pm
I'm quite sure that Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy because Snape doesn't go to Voldemort when he calls his followers using the dark mark.

exiguusmus
June 8th, 2005, 8:32 pm
I'm quite sure that Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy because Snape doesn't go to Voldemort when he calls his followers using the dark mark.
Hello amber_gem :welcome:

There is a (slim) possibility that Snape was in fact at the graveyard - there are some DEs present who Voldemort does not mention by name.

Personally, I don't think that Snape was at the graveyard when Voldemort called the DEs, but he does have a very good reason for not being there. Firstly, we know (as Hermione is so fond of telling us) that you can't Disapparate or Apparate at Hogwarts, so how was Snape supposed to get to the graveyard? Secondly, if Snape is to convince Voldemort that he is a spy for the Order, surely he needs to show Voldemort that Dumbledore trusts him, otherwise Snape's use as a spy would be be severely limited. If Snape wanted to convince Voldemort that he was syping on Dumbledore and the Order, surely it would have been presented a very suspicious situation to Dumbledore (in Voldemort's eyes) for Snape to have disappeared so soon after Harry and Cedric?

Crookshanks44
June 8th, 2005, 8:37 pm
Well my first reaction was "Of course not or Snape would be dead," but then I realised Voldemort is not stupid, he noticed Snape was not there. I think Voldemort knows Snape is a spy but is planning to use that information in a later book. The question is does Snape know Voldemort knows Snape is a spy?

Mcm490
June 8th, 2005, 11:41 pm
I think that if Voldemort knew that Snape was a Death Eater he would kill him. It wouldnt make sense if you knew someone was spying on you and leaking your information, and you didn't do anything about it...

caina
June 8th, 2005, 11:43 pm
I think Snape is a spy for Voldemort. He's managed to trick Dumbledore all this time and I think that Voldemort is well aware that Snape is spying--for HIM not Dumbledore. I'm afraid this could lead to Dumbledore's death.

HeRmIoNe_14
June 8th, 2005, 11:44 pm
Yeah, I guess he knows, he said soemthing about a Death Eater who had abandoned him forever, that must be him. But he hasn't got a chance of killing him yet

Hogwarts_Gurl
June 22nd, 2005, 6:57 pm
no, because he would have 'avada kedavra'-ed him on the spot.

Fuelpagan
June 22nd, 2005, 8:16 pm
Its plain and simple, If Voldemort knew Snape was a spy he would have killed him alreadyVoldemort must know. There is just too much evidence via Quirrell, Bart Crouch Jr. and Pettigrew for him not to realize that Snape is against him. I also think Voldemort clued Snape in on the fact that he knew Harry had seen the snake attack so Dumbledore would teach Harry occlumency but it backfired when Dumbledore had Snape teaching him instead. So why hasn't Voldemort killed Snape? There is clearly something Voldemort has planned in using Snape to trick the Order or Harry before killing him.

There is several times that Voldemort has noticed when people have lied. So I think the whole thing is very dangerous territory.The danger is what makes it great!

hphphp62442
June 22nd, 2005, 8:40 pm
I think what we must really focus on here is who is smarter, Voldemort or Dumbeldore. Assuming, of course, that Snape is actually acting as a spy for the Order, (J.K. has never clearly stated what Snape was doing,) we have to look at who will outsmart who. We don't know why Dumbledore trusts Snape, and all J.K. has said on the matter is that Snape has told Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believes it. That doesn't sound like concrete evidence that Snape can be trusted to me, but who knows, maybe we'll find out more in the next two books.

Seeing as we don't have much input into Snape's life, (other than a few looks into his horrible childhood) we can't really say who we think Snape will be loyal to. In one case, Dumbledore protected Snape from being tried as a Death Eater and also gave him a job, which I doubt many people were willing to do. In another case It is obvious from the way Snape treats his students that he has a hunger for power and enjoys being in control of things. Voldemort can offer him power and the chance to live in a world with others like him. Snape doesn't like muggle-borns or half-bloods, because he calls Lily a mudblood and he grew up in the Slytherin House; I mean, let's face it, even if there are a select few who do accept people with mixed blood the majority most likely does not.

I'm sure Voldemort did (or does) suspect Snape of something; with Voldemort as a prime witness to everything Snape said to Quirrell it would be difficult to think otherwise. However, Slytherins are known for their cunning, and Snape is very smart. He could probably have talked himself out of the situation somehow (although it would have proved to be very hard as Snape was openly talking about where his loyalties lied.) But Voldemort is not stupid, and he would never have a traitor in his midst.


I don't know. That's just some things I was thinking about. My head hurts.

anotherpotter
June 23rd, 2005, 1:08 am
Unless Snape is like a double agent. Dumbledore has Snape feed Voldemort only enough information to keep Voldemort believing. Remember, Voldemort is the father of all lies, so he always knows when someone else is lying. And, Snape has a real talent for blocking his own mind, which probably makes him the perfect choice for this role.

The larger questions are; Was Snape really a Death Eater first, or a member of the Order of the Phoenix? If a Death Eater, than what made him come back to the side of good and join an organization with his most hated rival James? If he was in the Order first, why pick him to pretend to be a Death Eater?

Herminia
June 24th, 2005, 3:06 am
He mustn't know he's a spy or he would kill him. If he did know, and for some reason didn't immediately annihilate Snape (and any remaining family members), then he would feed Snape convincing misinformation (hopefully Snape would be wise enough to catch it). In any case, I believe that Snape mastered Legilimens so he could keep this information hidden, and I think Voldemort has yet to uncover it (but he will!)

genevive
June 25th, 2005, 2:37 am
I haven't read this whole thread, so if this has been brought up already, I apologise...but I have the theory that Professor Snape is a Metamorphmagus...I think this ability, combined with his skill at Occlumency, makes him the perfect spy. I think Snape also played a part in the discovery that the eavesdropper who heard part of the prophecy was a DE (or LV supporter). How would the eavesdropper have been able to get back to LV to report the prophecy if, when he was caught eavesdropping, it had been known he was a DE/LV supporter? If that had been known, they would have put him in Azkaban, rather than just throw him out of the pub. I think that whoever it was, it was not known then that he was a DE/LV supporter, but somehow Snape reported it to Dumbldore when he became a spy.
Mostly, though, I think Snape is using his inborn abilities as a Metamorphmagus to spy on LV & Co.

cyrenesis
June 25th, 2005, 2:41 am
I'm fairly certain that he knows. Afterall, he does have Lucius as a death eater, who is a good friend of Snape's. But then that raises another question. If Snape is on Dumbledore's side, why is Lucius still his friend?

SiriuslyBlackDog
June 25th, 2005, 2:58 am
I dont think he knows because if he did Snape would be dead .. but then maybe there is a death in book six!
Tam Tam Tam Tam!!!!
well i still dont think he knows thats why snape is so useful to the order ..

genevive
June 25th, 2005, 3:05 am
Adding to my theory that Snape is a Metamorphmagus:

This would mean LV could know Snape has "left him forever" and still not know he is a spy.
Snape could have been present at the graveyard, in disguise of course.
This would also be why Snape made the sudden move at the end of GoF--he couldn't remember if his alias name had been mentioned in the graveyard, and didn't know if Harry was about to say that name.
(I also think that Snape-in-disguise would have done SOMETHING to help give Harry the upper hand or the few moments needed to escape if it had come down to it.)
On the other hand, if he was not present in the graveyard, he would have been even more startled when Harry started naming names, because he would have no idea if his alias name had been mentioned in the graveyard.
I truly believe that Snape, as unpleasant and mean as he is, is truly working for the Order. I do not believe he is a double agent. I think something turned him around to the good side. I also think he would have never lived to walk away from LV without his ability as a Metamorphmagus.

hphphp62442
June 25th, 2005, 4:28 am
Unless Snape is like a double agent. Dumbledore has Snape feed Voldemort only enough information to keep Voldemort believing. Remember, Voldemort is the father of all lies, so he always knows when someone else is lying. And, Snape has a real talent for blocking his own mind, which probably makes him the perfect choice for this role.

The larger questions are; Was Snape really a Death Eater first, or a member of the Order of the Phoenix? If a Death Eater, than what made him come back to the side of good and join an organization with his most hated rival James? If he was in the Order first, why pick him to pretend to be a Death Eater?


Snape was actually a Death Eater before he was a member of the Order of the Phoenix. In book four when Harry is looking through Dumbedore's pensieve and he sees the trial of Karkaroff, Karkaroff accuses Snape of being a Death Eater. Dumbledore says that Snape was indeed a Death Eater, but turned spy for the good side before the war ended.

*something like that i dont have my book :blush:

exiguusmus
June 25th, 2005, 1:53 pm
Snape was actually a Death Eater before he was a member of the Order of the Phoenix. In book four when Harry is looking through Dumbedore's pensieve and he sees the trial of Karkaroff, Karkaroff accuses Snape of being a Death Eater. Dumbledore says that Snape was indeed a Death Eater, but turned spy for the good side before the war ended.

*something like that i dont have my book :blush:
The quote is:
'I have given evidence on this matter,' [Dumbledore] said calmly. 'Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am'. (my emphasis) (GoF, UK edn, p 513)
What's interesting is Dumbledore's use of the word 'rejoined'. 'Rejoined' implies that Snape was on 'our side' before he became a DE. Does that mean Snape was once a member of the Order who left to follow Voldemort and subsequently changed sides again or is it an erroneous use of the word 'rejoined?'

Jordan
June 25th, 2005, 2:07 pm
The quote is:

What's interesting is Dumbledore's use of the word 'rejoined'. 'Rejoined' implies that Snape was on 'our side' before he became a DE. Does that mean Snape was once a member of the Order who left to follow Voldemort and subsequently changed sides again or is it an erroneous use of the word 'rejoined?'

Are you implying that Snape was once a spy in the Order for Voldemort?

Somehow that seems unlikely to me. How could Dumbledore trust Snape so bravely and wholeheartedly knowing Snape used to leak his secrets to his biggest rival??

PANTERA
June 25th, 2005, 2:11 pm
I think Snape is Barty Crouch jr.. I am talking about the thing that Snape is a taking the Polyjuice Potion together with Bartys hair (we dont know what happened with Barty after the kissing). Voldie doesn't know that Barty is (more than) dead. So Snape goes back to Voldie in the body of Barty. Snape is a really good Legilimens, so he can tell lies in front of Voldemort!!! And Voldemort doesn't know Barty is Snape and that Snape is a spy!

thestralgrin
June 25th, 2005, 2:59 pm
I think Snape is Barty Crouch jr.. I am talking about the thing that Snape is a taking the Polyjuice Potion together with Bartys hair (we dont know what happened with Barty after the kissing). Voldie doesn't know that Barty is (more than) dead. So Snape goes back to Voldie in the body of Barty. Snape is a really good Legilimens, so he can tell lies in front of Voldemort!!! And Voldemort doesn't know Barty is Snape and that Snape is a spy!

I was thinking along very similar lines myself - basically I was going on the theory that Snape has been taking polyjuice potion to look like a decommissioned DE that LV still thinks is functional, and using his mental skills to trick LV into thinking that it is him - Snape wouldnt last five seconds at a DE meeting with Voldemort around unless Voldy was feeling bored. Barty Crouch Jr would be an ideal person to use as LV (1) considers him his most loyal servant & (2) knows he's in Hogwarts. We know that DD has been helping Snape to prepare for the task, so it could have been his idea to do it that way this time around.

Another question this may raise is: How much is LV telling the other DE's re' who the traitor is? or is he holding it back from them to lure Snape into a trap?

exiguusmus
June 25th, 2005, 3:01 pm
Are you implying that Snape was once a spy in the Order for Voldemort?

Not at all, just that the use of the word 'rejoins' is ambiguous.

swirlctw
June 25th, 2005, 3:51 pm
personally i do think that vodemort knows that snape might be a spy because malfoy would have told him so when he did not show up when he called apon the death eaters in the forth book.

Flannery07
June 25th, 2005, 4:01 pm
If Voldemort knew that Snape was a spy, Im sure Snape wouldnt be living. Voldemort, i am very sure, would kill him. Anyone who betrayes him dies, it seems.

Lissibith
June 25th, 2005, 8:16 pm
Any why, if Voldemort knew he was a spy, would he automatically kill him?

All signs point to that, while he's not averse to a blunt show of power when it suits his need, Voldemort can also be cunning and sly. So assume he knows Snape is a spy for the order. Why not let him live? Why not have a chanel open to feed false information, have possible access to someone who has access to both Hogwarts and the Order. Someone he might, at some point, be able to compel into some action at a critical time? Who knows? Maybe Snape's not as good at occlumancy as everyone thinks. If does have any contact with Voldemort of his followers, he could be a spy for them without even knowing it.

starrbryt
June 25th, 2005, 8:29 pm
I have two different minds on the subject. There is evidence that says he's working for both Voldemort and Dumbledore and that he's not a spy anymore.

But at times I think that Snape is truly working for Dumbledore. I think he has kept his ties close with Lucius- even Umbridge says that Lucius speaks very highly of Snape at the end of OotP. But I also think that Voldemort is soooo determined to kill Harry that if Snape were truly working for Voldemort, he would have had Snape bring Harry to him to somehow. And the Quirrell situation always bothers me. It seems to me that Voldemort would have told Quirrell to get Snape in on the action, not keep him from getting it. Something tells me that Dumbledore, and most likely Snape as well, always had a feeling that Quirrell was up to no good.

bujipie
June 25th, 2005, 9:34 pm
The question shouldn't be "does LV know Snape is a spy", but that Snape was a spy. All we know right now is that Snape is doing something secret for the Order, not that he is spying on Voldemort. Snape may be using someone else for this, such as Lucius Malfoy, a close friend and a deatheater that didn't betray Voldemort for 13 years. Just a hunch.

exiguusmus
June 25th, 2005, 10:53 pm
personally i do think that vodemort knows that snape might be a spy because malfoy would have told him so when he did not show up when he called apon the death eaters in the forth book.
Snape would have had a pretty good excuse for not showing up (that assuming he wasn't one of the unnamed DEs of course ;) ) Given that Snape was at Hogwarts, how was he supposed to have got from there to the graveyard. As Hermione is so fond of telling us, you can't Apparate or Disapparate at Hogwarts.

BlackPanther16
June 25th, 2005, 10:59 pm
I don't think Voldemort knows. Snape is a highly skilled Occulemens (I can't spell). Also, as we see in Harry's case, Snape would know if Voldemort was looking into his mind and would see what Voldemort saw there.

hotharry
June 25th, 2005, 11:13 pm
I don't think Voldemort knows. Snape is a highly skilled Occulemens (I can't spell). Also, as we see in Harry's case, Snape would know if Voldemort was looking into his mind and would see what Voldemort saw there.

Very good point. Snape could keep him out of his mind, but I'm sure that Voldermort would question why Snape would not allow him into his mind. I think that if this is true that Snape would have to have a good reason for not letting his master read his mind on demand. That is maybe Voldermort has never had a need to read Snapes mind because he is not suspicious of his loyal followers activities.

Dare Devil
June 26th, 2005, 11:48 am
I am 100% sure that Voldemort knows Snape is a spy. In Book 1 Snape threatend Quirrel and as we all know Quirrel said his master is always with him. This is so simple. This means when Snape threatend Quirrel he was with him.
Question is whether Snape knew that. I mean, it could very well be that Voldemort wanted Quirrel to keep their "connection" secret and that even to Snape. I mean, Voldemort was dissapointed of his Death Eaters after they had not looked for him and I would not be surprised if he was wondering whether he could really trust them while he was still weak and pretty much dependant on Quirrel.

If we also assume that Quirrel was able to hide his thoughts even from a skilled wizard like Snape then this would mean that Snape must have thought that Quirrel was just looking for personal power and that he had no affiliations with Voldemort. If that is true then Voldemort has no reason to see Snape as a traitor. Voldemort would think that Snape was simply clueless and had no idea that Quirrel was connected with him. That's hardly something one can call treason.

Another argument for this theory is the fact that Snape is still spying for Voldemort. If Snape had reason to believe that Voldemort saw him as a traitor for his actions in the first book then Snape would not do that.


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Very good point. Snape could keep him out of his mind, but I'm sure that Voldermort would question why Snape would not allow him into his mind. I think that if this is true that Snape would have to have a good reason for not letting his master read his mind on demand. That is maybe Voldermort has never had a need to read Snapes mind because he is not suspicious of his loyal followers activities.
If I remember correctly then Snape can produce fake images in his mind which Voldemort would see as the real thing when "reading" Snape's mind.

eyes_green
June 26th, 2005, 12:08 pm
ofcourse he does ! this is voldemort we're talking about ! snape is obviously a double agent he tells each side he gives the other the nonsignificant information who he really works for is up to him but i dont think voldmort trusts snape that much so snape has to be on his guard i wouldnt put it past voldemort to put snape through some sort of test