Marauder's Map Queries

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NaBUru
January 14th, 2003, 2:32 am
If fred and George had it in the first books, then they could see Voldie, the Riddle´s rebirth, and even Sirius and Pettigrew.

Do they hide it? Are they with Dumb (or Voldie)? Then?

Qeomash
January 14th, 2003, 2:46 am
How could they see Voldemort? He's sharing a body with Quirrel, and we have no way of knowing if the Marauder's Map shows that relationship.

Although that is a good point about Pettigrew...they SHOULD have seen him walking around with Percy before Ron showed up. Maybe they're just not that observant.

Severely Snapped
January 14th, 2003, 2:54 am
I think Fred and George have had the map for awhile, and they don't need to even look at it anymore. I think they say something to this effect when they "bequeath" it to Harry, i.e., that they know all the secret passages by heart by now.

dracofan
January 14th, 2003, 2:56 am
I agree, they had memorized the map and no longer needed it. That's why they gave it to Harry.

Hermione
January 14th, 2003, 3:46 am
Yeah, I don't think that they really used the map much after they memorized all the passages, that would explain why they thought to give it to Harry, because if they really did still need it Harry never would have gotten it. But would the map show someone if they were in animagus form?

ladylighter
January 14th, 2003, 4:09 am
it would show someone in animagus form, because that's the stem of this entire thread. heh.

i don't know where i'm going with this but..
and even after the map was memorized, F&G would still have needed it to see if snape or mcg was lurking around a corner somewhere. so, eh, i don't know.

Hermione
January 14th, 2003, 4:17 am
but we don't know if the M. map shows people in animagus form.

apples
January 14th, 2003, 4:24 am
Yeah it does. :) Lupin saw Sirius dragging Ron into the Whomping Willow, didn't he?

Hermione
January 14th, 2003, 4:28 am
Lupin saw Sirius dragging Ron into the Whomping Willow, he did?
It's been too long since since I read PoA.

nuffer
January 14th, 2003, 4:45 am
Snape just sees Lupin running down the passage under the whomping willow, I thought. It's really never indicated whether it can show animagi.

Demona Snape
January 14th, 2003, 5:03 am
I would think that after memorizing the passages and being that they have never been very "innocent" as Harry said they wouldn't need the map since they would know how to get out of trouble no matter who they encounter.

I doubt they used the map to see if Quirrel was Voldemort since that was probably furthest from their minds.

nuffer
January 14th, 2003, 5:07 am
well, they probably weren't LOOKING to see whether Quirrel was Voldemort, but if they happened to see the name Voldemort on the map, I think they'd have done something about it. But then maybe Voldie wouldn't show if he was disembodied.

Or, since the map only shows people who are moving (right?), he never showed up anyway when they were looking at it.

But then, another thing: would Voldie turn up on the map as Voldemort or as Tom Riddle, which is his given name?

apples
January 14th, 2003, 5:16 am
I'm thinking he would probably show up under his birth name, like Barty Crouch did.

I think the map shows everyone, whether they're moving or not. Because wouldn't it have shown Harry when he was stuck in the step and couldn't move?

WhiteSlash
January 14th, 2003, 5:16 am
I think Volde would be Tom Riddle because that is his name. Volde is a sort of nickname. Like Bartimus Crouch, not Barty. It would show their full name.
If they(F&G) did see peter, they probaly though it was Percy's friend or something.

SeniorFishy
January 14th, 2003, 5:18 am
They probably saw Pettigrew but they had no idea who he was and didn't care because it was probably someone not important.

Camo
January 14th, 2003, 8:25 am
Originally posted by Hermione
but we don't know if the M. map shows people in animagus form.

Lupin sees Pettigrew on the map as well as Sirius when they are both in animagus gorm.

venus1818
January 14th, 2003, 10:26 am
Another question: how can Harry see Mrs. Norris in the map? Does it show animas as well?

lanifiel
January 14th, 2003, 10:30 am
I imagine that for Fred ang George using the map to make there way through Hogwarts no longer produces a challenege that they need to fufill there insatiable need to excitment :)

rotsiepots
January 14th, 2003, 12:43 pm
Realistically, the Marauder's Map is going to be quite extensive. Hogwarts castle is, seemingly, massive in size; I doubt it would be possible for the twins to stop and read everyone's names whilst examining the Map. Similarly, the number of students attending Hogwarts has been estimated at somewhere near 1000 by JKR, with the addition of teachers, ghosts, animals, guests etc the names appearing on the map could, theoretically, number well over this estimate.

If Fred and George did routinely consult the Map in their mischief making, I doubt they would have paused to read every name visible. No doubt they would have examined the area relevant to their exploits, checked the coast was clear and moved on.

Besides, I genuinely think they were more interested in the layout of Hogwarts castle with its secret passages and what not than the actual inhabitants (unless they were specifically checking for a clear passage). It wouldn't surprise me if they just didn't notice the presence of Pettigrew etc.

Finch
January 14th, 2003, 5:36 pm
I agree rosiepots.... they couldn't possibly.... well i suppose.... in reality, but who would want to take that much TIME? it would take FOREVER to read ALL the student names.

Myrddin
January 14th, 2003, 5:49 pm
The map causes problems for Barty Crouch Jnr in the GoF as well.

What we have to do here is agree to disagree. Yes the map would have told Fred and George of Peter's whereabouts in the school at any time before they gave it to Harry if they'd looked. And yes I think we can assume they didn't look at the map too carefully.

ladylighter
January 14th, 2003, 11:06 pm
here's a thought on the map..

obviously hogwarts has tons of classrooms, hallways, staircases, etc. it covers a LOT of grounds. it's possible that the map orients where the reader focuses his concentration. that would solve the problem of F&G seeing quirrel, voldy, sirius, and pettigrew. F&G simply weren't oriented on any locale that the four happened to be in at the moment. this would also allow for more intricate details, such as harry seeing himself (as in pictoral representation, not just in words) and the statue of the hag(?) on the map.

/rambly-ness

JoFaye
January 14th, 2003, 11:10 pm
I agree with lani. Even if they were sneaking around the castle at night they probably didn't bother with map. It's much more exciting to take the chance at being caught, and no one has ever said Fred and George are the cautious type.

SiriusBlack
January 15th, 2003, 12:08 pm
Fred and George knew all the ways around Hogwarts by heart, so they don't need the map. And they know of all secret passages, so they can escape easily if Filch is around the corner.

Professor_Lupin
January 15th, 2003, 12:16 pm
I agree..
Fred and George had used the map so often that they no longer consulted it. It esentially makes sense, i think they where cunning enough to sneak pass the Professors/ Staff without the use of the map. The map was more a means of advising them on the locations of secret passage ways. That is why they where so willing to pass it on to Harry. Because they had memorised all the locations of the passage ways, which was their primary use of the map.

SiriusBlack
January 15th, 2003, 12:23 pm
Exactly, and when they were sneaking into secret passages, there were two of them right??? So one could have been on the lookout while the other opened the passage and all, then both of them could have gone in and shut it.

Auri DeMeer
January 29th, 2003, 5:20 pm
They couldn't have just found it somewhere, because they actually do KNOW how to use it as well.

Maybe it's been handed down from some relative - their father? An older friend?

Has anyone thought about this...?

nuffer
January 29th, 2003, 5:40 pm
They said they found it by chance picking something at random from Filch's drawer of "dangerous" items while one of them caused a diversion.

Who knows how they figured out how to use it, though. That's a good question....

Rowena Ravenclaw
January 29th, 2003, 5:43 pm
Maybe the Map recognized a pair of kindred spirits, and gave them more help in figuring out how to use it than it did with Snape?

Looks like none of the Weasleys listened to Arthur's advice on never trusting anything that thinks for itself.

familiar
January 29th, 2003, 6:18 pm
If Filch considered it dangerous, why didn't he destroy it? Or give it to Dumbledore? What else is in Filch's cabinet? I love a chance to look.

nuffer
January 29th, 2003, 6:43 pm
So true. Imagine if there are piles and piles of items that could protect them all from Voldie? Or perhaps there's somethign truly evil and dangerous....

rotsiepots
January 29th, 2003, 11:07 pm
Originally posted by familiar
If Filch considered it dangerous, why didn't he destroy it? Or give it to Dumbledore? What else is in Filch's cabinet? I love a chance to look.

Filch didn't know what it was. He only suspected it was dangerous. To quote directly from PoA:

"It's not as bad as it sounds, you know," said George. "We don't reckon Filch ever found out how to work it. He probably suspected what it was, though, or he wouldn't have confiscated it."

Filch, being a squib, probably doesn't have the abilities to destroy magical objects (I'm sure most of the confiscated items, including the Marauder's Map, have enchatments protecting them from injury). Perhaps he just enjoys keeping them because of his sadistic desire to torture the students? He has some of their belongings...that must make him feel good, somehow.

1MelissaPotter
January 29th, 2003, 11:13 pm
I don't think most of the stuff in there is really dangerous. It's the map isn't really dangerous. It's probably stuff thats mostly from joke shops, annoying things not dangerous.

Steffie
January 29th, 2003, 11:16 pm
Imagine how filled his cabinet's are....! In book4 it said that Filtch had a list of forbidden magical items (437 items). If he had only one of each, that would fill up his drawers quickly.

TheLostWeasley
January 29th, 2003, 11:23 pm
i dont think the stuff is dangerous i just think that...its probably stuff maybe dumbledore isnt sure is in there but if i were the weasley twins...id go get another look in there

gred&forge4ever
January 30th, 2003, 2:26 am
I think that the theory that the Map recognizes mischievious people is probably true :D

I bet that is why Filch never figured out how to work it and why it insulted Snape:lol:(that is one of my favorite parts of PoA)

Puffskein
January 30th, 2003, 6:38 pm
I think the Marauders put a bit of themselves in the map, like Tom Riddle did with his diary. Hence the map insults Snape but helps Harry by showing him how to open the tunnel, and Mr Prongs refers to Snape as Professor even though he may well have died before Snape became a Professor. It would be nice if Harry could have a good chat with his father's teenage self through the map.

Cat
January 30th, 2003, 7:48 pm
The Map can communicate. Maybe when the twins tried to read it, one of the misters Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs asked whether Fred and George would solemnly swear that they were up to no good. And so they did.

Moonlight
January 30th, 2003, 7:59 pm
Yes...after all, the map only wants to lead people out of Hogwarts...I know I've read that somewhere...
Besides the map should have a few brains of it's own...perhaps like the sorting hat it can recognise people and catogorise them.

MadMagic
January 30th, 2003, 10:51 pm
Yeah I bet that it recognized the kindred mischievous spirts of the Weasleys and and helped them figure out how to use the map.

It would be really interesting to get a look at the stuff Filch has confiscated over the years. He probably has some amazingly interesting, useful and exciting things in his office.

applepie15
January 31st, 2003, 4:38 am
Originally posted by MadMagic
Yeah I bet that it recognized the kindred mischievous spirts of the Weasleys and and helped them figure out how to use the map.


I agree. Fred and George are pretty mischievous!:p

Aramis Diggle
January 31st, 2003, 4:39 am
Filch is stupid. No wonder he's a Squib.

Aramis Diggle
January 31st, 2003, 5:08 am
Sorry if that sounded a little biased, rough day here.

Max
January 31st, 2003, 5:12 am
Fred and George may have been trying to find out how to use the map, when the map recognized their mischievious personalities and helped them out. The map also recognized Snape ...

Aramis Diggle
January 31st, 2003, 5:18 am
Yeah, but Snape did say that the Potions Master Severus Idiot blah blah something or other commands you to....yeah whatver.

Max
January 31st, 2003, 7:44 am
Yeah, but still the Marauder's Map recognized Snape and bombarded him with insults. It's something like Tom Riddle's diary, only friendlier.

dexter
January 31st, 2003, 12:17 pm
Originally posted by Max
Yeah, but still the Marauder's Map recognized Snape and bombarded him with insults. It's something like Tom Riddle's diary, only friendlier.

Well, Snape told the map his name and that he was a professor.
'Professor Severus Snape, master of this school, commands you to yield the information you conceal!'
It reacted only when it 'heard' Snape's name. I always thought that maybe the Marauders added this little 'extra feature' especially and exclusively for him. I think it would be just their style. :evil:

Padfoot127
February 1st, 2003, 6:33 pm
undefinedI think that Dumbledore probably left it and all of the other "dangerous" items in the cabinet for people like Fred and George. It seems like something he'd do.

ERut
February 1st, 2003, 7:09 pm
i doubt it. dumbledore is very trusting, but i dont think he would put it there for someone to find it. Besides maybe Filch didn't tell Dumbledore about the stuff that he confinscates because we know he doesn't approve of Dumbledores method of discipline...

Trigger Happy
April 18th, 2003, 4:18 am
I just noticed something in the PoA which I am currently reading, about the Marauders Map:

"Fred pulled something from inside his cloak with a flourish and laid it on one of the desks. It was a large, square, very worn piece of parchment with nothing written on it."

"A labelled dot in the top left corner showed that Professor Dumbledore was pacing his study; the caretaker's cat, Mrs Norris, was prowling the second floor, and Peeves the poltergeist was currently bouncing arround in the trophy room."

If it is a square piece of parchment, how can it show different levels. Surely it would be a birds-eye-view map of the school? So how can it be "3D" when it is just a piece of parchment? Opinions?

harp230
April 18th, 2003, 4:24 am
ummm...Never thought about it.....good point...maybe it set up to show the all of the different levels on different sections of the parchment. Or maybe the reader has some ability to control what is percisely seen on the map by some sort of scrolling feature

Barbara Kennedy
April 18th, 2003, 4:29 am
The name of the person being shown was diplayed by the figure, so would be the level.

Jinxie Cat
April 18th, 2003, 6:50 am
Hmm... Interesting... I never pay attention to details like this! I really should start too though! Something's in the Harry Potter world are thought and theorized about, but we never really find the answers out to some of the questions that we really want to know more about... Maybe this is one of them!

Filius Flitwick
April 18th, 2003, 6:55 am
I always pictured the map as magically shifting between levels and rearanging on the page itself. I do want to see what it looks like on the screen and see if it matches what's in my head.

Trigger Happy
April 18th, 2003, 7:14 am
You make a good point Babara. It is entirely possible that it would show the level that the person was on, but then there's Dumbledore's office (up staircases) and we don't know what level the Witch is on. Probabloy the second floor if that was the case ;)

MaynardIsReal12
April 18th, 2003, 8:40 am
Have you ever seen a mall directory? It has different floors at different parts on the map. For example, let's say this little smiley dude represents a layer.
:)

:)

See, you know what I'm saying? This way you can have a bird's eye view of people on every floor.

Filius Flitwick
April 18th, 2003, 7:26 pm
But Hogwarts is such a big school, and by the looks of the grand staircase there are about 15 floors. The Marauder's Map isn't all that huge, so there has to be something else besides having seperate levels on it.

Barbara Kennedy
April 19th, 2003, 2:35 am
Perhaps this should be merged with "What happened to the Marauders Map?"

Jessica
April 19th, 2003, 3:54 am
Originally posted by Filius Flitwick (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=273276#post273276))
But Hogwarts is such a big school, and by the looks of the grand staircase there are about 15 floors. The Marauder's Map isn't all that huge, so there has to be something else besides having seperate levels on it.


Maybe its enchanted like the Weasley's car so that it fits more information than it appears to.

luv_HP
April 19th, 2003, 4:27 am
I agree with jessicacarstens. It could like have miniatures of each level, but, like, if you put your wand over one area it makes it larger, get it? Kinda reminds me of a computer website or something... It could work...

Aldawen
April 19th, 2003, 7:17 am
It could be laid out like a floor plan, not three-dimensional. That would be a bit boring, though, wouldn't it?

Hpmons
April 19th, 2003, 12:36 pm
I always imagined it to be a big square piece of paper, and, lets say there are 4 different floors at Hogwarts, It would have four smaller maps on the parchment with a birds eye view of each, and staircases would be shown like they are on maps in a museum.

And, of course, as jessicacarstens said, it probably can fit in more than it appears to.

bekki791
April 20th, 2003, 3:33 am
But Hogwarts is such a big school, and by the looks of the grand staircase there are about 15 floors. The Marauder's Map isn't all that huge, so there has to be something else besides having seperate levels on it.

This is true, but we can't necessarily trust everything we see in the movie. Even though JKR helped in the making of the movies, they still don't completely reflect things the way they are meant to be in the books.

rotsiepots
April 20th, 2003, 5:31 am
Erm, PoA hasn't been made yet so I doubt Filius was getting any inspiration from the film's eventual interpretation of the Map. ;)

Personally, I never saw the Map as three-dimensional. My spatial reasoning isn't particularly good, so this may have something to do with it. Perhaps the Map "shrinks" parts of the school that aren't relevant to the person holding the Map and focusses on its immediate surroundings.

Magic folk are particularly skilled at making rather large objects fit into small-ish spaces, so I'm sure that Map has it all planned out somehow.

:)

bekki791
April 20th, 2003, 5:43 am
Erm, PoA hasn't been made yet so I doubt Filius was getting any inspiration from the film's eventual interpretation of the Map.

That wasn't what I meant...when Filius said that the staircases made it look like Hogwarts was at least 15 stories tall, I said that the images of Hogwarts of the movie can't be trusted to reflect the book. :)

I have terrible space perception too, and I also have no patience for reading detail, so the image that I got of the Map was merely a piece of parchment with a floor plan for two or three floors...which is obviously not what the map looks like. Oh well.

Mad Macca
April 20th, 2003, 1:49 pm
I always imagined the map to be very similar to a house plan, with lines for walls and door spaces etc. I thought that it only showed the floor that you were currently on, but it is possible that you could magnify a section on the map with your wand, and have each level a different map.
Or maybe it would be work similar to a web site where you can have the option of going on the first floor or second floor, and tapping it with your wand to highlight it, and it would move to that floor of the map, and from there you could magnify the bit you wanted to see.

tabby
April 20th, 2003, 3:05 pm
That's exactly how I imagined it Mad Macca. A map of each level, originally of the level you are on, and if you want to swap the levels you just click to go up or down. Easy, simply and effective.

Puffskein
April 20th, 2003, 6:18 pm
That sounds like the best idea, but we know that you can look at other floors (in GOF Harry looked at Snape's office without being in the dungeons himself).

zora_domina
April 21st, 2003, 5:01 am
It's just a Wizarding game of the Sims... Instead of a little green icon, they get a little black hat. :)

I saw it pretty much as you would get in a computer game's mapping function. Perhaps the lines were in different shades of grey or in colors indicating which floor was being seen, there are all kinds of ways of doing this. Heck, my MM7 game has a map rather like this only without the names on it.

And we all know that if we muggles have thought of something, Wizards have done it better and with more personal flare than we ever could...

-zora

supernatural
April 21st, 2003, 10:18 pm
i always thought of the map as a house plan, which lets you choose which floor you want to view, regardless of which level you are on.
how cool would that be?
:coolblue:

NorthStar
April 21st, 2003, 10:23 pm
I have always wondered about this ever since reading PoA. Despite all the theories her I still can't picture it. Oh well.

Snowpoke
April 21st, 2003, 11:25 pm
I always thought of the map in a modified 3D, much like a lot of computer games. It would look like a pen or pencil drawing, with key details of the building, and would move around depending on where you wanted to look. Like it could read your mind and move around.

JephReeta
April 21st, 2003, 11:30 pm
I wondered this and the only thing I came up with was that it must just show the floor you're on at the moment but then I don't know how it could show Professor Dumbledore and Prof. Snape at the same time if they're on different floors. I'm so confused now! Arrgh!

eyedam
April 22nd, 2003, 12:16 am
I agree that the map shows one level at a time and maybe only some part of it. But it shows the place the person wants to see. It can change the level or follow a person by the desire of the wizard. S/he don't have to use the wand, map simply shows, what s/he wants.

pheonixrising
April 22nd, 2003, 2:52 am
It doesn't just show the floor youre on.

pheonixrising
April 22nd, 2003, 2:55 am
U know when he gets out of the prefects bathroom? He sees(at once) the trophy room, filch's office, and Snape's office in the dungeons. Because he goes DOWN stairs on the way to Snape's office, we know that's at least 2 floors, and I don't think all the other rooms were on one floor. I know there's at least 1 other reference of something like this. I support the Weasly's trunk theroy.

miramis
May 1st, 2003, 1:21 pm
I've been thinking about the Marauder's map. I searched the forum for older threads on this but I couldn't find any that discussed this..

At the end of GoF, Barty Crouch Jr says that Harry saw him search Snape's office on the Marauder's map, but thought it was his father (Barty Crouch Sr).

So what I've been wondering is if the map showed the real names of people using the polyjuice potion or if Crouch Jr had forgot to take it that night and only took it just before he ran into Snape and Filch. If the marauder's map shows the real name of the people drinking polyjuice potion, Harry should have seen that before then? Maybe two Barty Crouches around or an Alastor Moody in his office (ie the real Moody) when the fake Moody was somewhere to be seen.. Or something..

Do you follow my thoughts? (It got a bit confusing hehe)

Justin Etre
May 1st, 2003, 1:28 pm
I understand what you mean, but I don't think so.
I don't think that BC Jr would ever have forgotten because his complex plan required him staying alert at all times.

Potter_fan
May 1st, 2003, 1:59 pm
I don't think drinking Polyjuice potion would effect the name on the map Just because you LOOK like someone else you are still yourself.

supernatural
May 1st, 2003, 2:41 pm
I've just read book 4 again and it seems to me that the map does show the name o the person whether theey're disguised by polyjuice potion or not- thats why harry saw crouch in snapes office and just assumed it was crouch sr.
But this doesn't answer the question of why the real moody didn't show up on the map.
But this would explain why crouch/moody took the map- just so harry guess who he really was.

Mireille
May 1st, 2003, 2:50 pm
Maybe certain materials don't allow the map to pick up people when they are behind it. Because Moody was locked in a trunk, maybe the material the trunk was made of didn't allow his precence to be known. That, or Harry just wasn't looking for his name.

rusk
May 1st, 2003, 3:06 pm
Or even if Harry did see Moody's name. It would have told Harry that Moody was sitting in his office, which was perfectly reasonable.

aiko amaya
May 1st, 2003, 3:25 pm
It doesn't work on people with the polyjuice potion, Barty's name came up on the map when he was moody. It's takesa couple minutes to change into the other person and I don't think Crouch Jr would do it out in the open like that. The time frame just doesn't fit.

rotsiepots
May 1st, 2003, 3:36 pm
:yup: the Map definitely shows your "true" identity -- remember after Harry witnessed Barty Crouch sifting through Snape's office, he ran into pseudo-Moody on the stairs. This illustrates that Crouch Jr was, indeed, still quaffing his Polyjuice Potion when his name appeared on the Map.

:)

smartypants
May 1st, 2003, 3:37 pm
Originally posted by miramis (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=299264#post299264))
So what I've been wondering is if the map showed the real names of people using the polyjuice potion


Yes.

smartypants
May 1st, 2003, 3:38 pm
Originally posted by Penelope Clearwater (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=299301#post299301))
Maybe certain materials don't allow the map to pick up people when they are behind it. Because Moody was locked in a trunk, maybe the material the trunk was made of didn't allow his precence to be known. That, or Harry just wasn't looking for his name.


It only shows people who move.

supernatural
May 1st, 2003, 3:56 pm
oooh- i like it- it only shows people that move- that would explain why the map isn't crowded with thousands of little dots who are the students.
is that written somewhere or is this just what you believe?
:coolblue:

Girl
May 1st, 2003, 5:15 pm
I thought I read it somewhere in the book that it only shows people who are moving. I think Fred or George told it to Harry when they gave him the map.

rusk
May 1st, 2003, 5:25 pm
I don't think that can be true. When Moody finds the map on the stairs with Harry, he is staring intently at it because he sees himself labeled "Bartemis Crouch" and he realizes that the map could ruin all his plans.

But neither Harry nor Moody are moving at that point.

supernatural
May 1st, 2003, 5:29 pm
ahh- good point and well spotted!!! maybe this is a mistake- overlooked or something,
if it shows everyone though- there would be hundreds of named dots all over the place- students and ghosts- how could harry/ anyone looking at the map distinguish were certain people are???

Puffskein
May 1st, 2003, 9:51 pm
Well, when Harry has used the map so far, there haven't been many people around - they were either in Hogsmeade or asleep.

DocHollidaywe
May 2nd, 2003, 3:23 am
Perhaps with Voldermort it showed Tom Riddle, and they didnt know who Tom Riddle was ... maybe they thought Tom Riddle was that pet iguana that he had on his shoulder ... same for Peter Pettigrew, maybe they thought that was its name from its prior owner.

Goldie
May 8th, 2003, 2:30 am
If the map has the ability to tune into the fact that the current possessor is up to no good, maybe it also has the ability to tune in to what the user needs to know, and only shows that?

Barbara Kennedy
May 11th, 2003, 5:53 am
Perhaps the map has as many little maps in seperate boxes on the paper as threre are floors to the building, each with all the details needed.

smartypants
May 12th, 2003, 12:11 pm
Originally posted by Goldie (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=309052#post309052))
If the map has the ability to tune into the fact that the current possessor is up to no good, maybe it also has the ability to tune in to what the user needs to know, and only shows that?


Well, it doesn't need to tune in to it. It's just a password. "I solemny swear that I am up to no good." The question is how they figured THAT out. ;)

But yes, the map could show you only things that goes on near where you are, for example.
It also obviously only shows people that are moving, and maybe even only people moving in your direction, or people that you are moving closer to. And that means they would never see Pettigrew on the map, unless they were using the map close to the Gryffindor tower and Pettigre was moving. And of course, he just lay on Rons bed sleeping all the time. ;)
Besides, even if they DID see his name, it might not have ment anything to them.

Leda
May 12th, 2003, 9:50 pm
I agree with smartypants that the name Peter Pettigrew didn't mean anything to them. They might have seen the name next to Ron's but just assumed that it was some Hufflepuff kid they didn't know.

GrangerGal
May 12th, 2003, 10:06 pm
I just think that they didnt know who Peter Pettigrew was... also they dont need to look at the entire map, they only need to look at the part where they are going. If those people arent on that side of the map then they may not notice them

Moonlight
June 1st, 2003, 1:47 pm
A thought that's been bugging me lately.
In PoA, when Lupin was looking at the Marauders map, why didn't he see two Harrys and two Hermiones?

The ones with Sirius and the ones from the future.

I apologize if there's already a thread about this. The mods may close this if they feel it's inappropiate.

:)

rotsiepots
June 1st, 2003, 1:55 pm
I'll merge this with a thread addressing this issue called Marauder's Map Queries (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4628).

:)

Moonlight
June 1st, 2003, 2:53 pm
Oh. Thanks and sorry.

LadyofthePensieve
June 1st, 2003, 3:19 pm
Hi,
my guess about the Marauder´s Map: it is working in the same way as Tom Marvolo Riddle´s diary. Severus was right to call it Dark Magic, because it thinks of itself as the diary did. And one point more: Harry activated the map nearly in the same way as the diary.
He "opened" the book by writing his name into it, the map was activated when he was saying a "childish":
"I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." .
The Pensieve (as an other magical thing) is just White Magic, it cannot speak to you, neither will it leads you to false activities.

Ecthelion
June 1st, 2003, 3:21 pm
Wow that is a good thought which I can think of no solution....I'm thinking that once sirius saw the original Hermione, Harry and black I would of guessed that he rushed off to find out what was going on and potentially protect Harry if need aroused. In other words, he probably took one look at who he saw and didn't bother to look at anything else. And when snape looked at it he probably looked at the spot where a lot of "dots" (people) were converging and saw who they were and immediately set off for there never looking to see who else was there, probably to engaged in thinking of capturing black and lupin.

Anyways, that is a bunch of non-fact assumptions formed to fit a bad speculation. But, it does provide some sort of answer!

McKinnon02
June 1st, 2003, 3:35 pm
I'm wondering why the map didn't show the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets.

Ecthelion
June 1st, 2003, 3:40 pm
Probably because the mauraders (lupin, sirius, peter, james) didn't find out about it. Remeber everthing that is on the map is what they discovered from their wanderings and explorations due to their ability to transform. I hope that helps :).

McKinnon02
June 1st, 2003, 3:50 pm
That's true, I had forgotten about that. Thanks, Ecthelion.

firebolt2000
June 1st, 2003, 7:32 pm
I think first of all, they had the maps memorized and knew all the secret passages so they really didn't need to use it unless they wanted to find where people (like Snape or Filch) were. But also, Fred and George probably didn't know that Peter Pettigrew was such a danger, just like Harry, Ron, and Hermione didn't know. So, even if the map showed people who were in animagus form, they probably wouldn't have noticed because they didn't know who Peter Pettigrew was and that he helped Voldemort kill Lily and James. Fred and George think Sirius killed Lily and James.

McKinnon02
June 2nd, 2003, 12:06 am
I just read over the last interview with Galadriel Waters, and something very big and important struck me about the Marauder's Map. HARRY NEVER GOT THE MAP BACK FROM CROUCH JR. a.k.a. Moody. So this leaves a big question as to who has it, and what happened to it. Remember, Dumbledore doesn't know anything about the map. So: Did Fudge take it? Does McGonagall have it? Did the dementors destroy it?

Raven
June 2nd, 2003, 3:28 am
I betcha Dumbledore has it...and I bet he will USE it. That is, if he doesn't already have a copy of his own. I've always wondered how he knew that Harry was visited the Mirror of Erised in SS.

harp230
June 2nd, 2003, 3:51 am
Well, Dumbledore does now know about the map, he was told at the end of GOF. I would think that he will get his hands on it. Wether he gioves it back to Harry is another issue....

smartypants
June 2nd, 2003, 1:02 pm
Originally posted by Moonlight (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=347176#post347176))
A thought that's been bugging me lately.
In PoA, when Lupin was looking at the Marauders map, why didn't he see two Harrys and two Hermiones?


The Marauders map seem to only show people who are moving. Harry2 and Hermione2 was not moving. They were also just outside school grounds, and the map doesn't show that either.

McKinnon02
June 2nd, 2003, 2:55 pm
Where was Dumbledore told about the Map? Was it when Crouch was talking to him?

firebolt2000
June 2nd, 2003, 11:08 pm
I think that Dumbledore knew about the map, because when it was taken away by Filch, he must have shown it to Dumbledore to show how important this piece of paper was since it revealed all of the secret passages to the school.

I don't know if I am remembering this correctly, but when Dumbledore showed himself to Harry at the Mirror of Erised, he said he didn't need an invisibility cloak to become invisible. Since Dumbledore is a very powerful wizard, he might know how to turn himself invisible with a wand. He could have apparated there as well....

harp230
June 2nd, 2003, 11:54 pm
Actually Dumbledore did not know about that map until Crouch Jr explained it at the end of GOF. Crouch Jr mentioned it under the Veritserum. Dumbledore asked about it and Crouch Jr explained. As far as i know this was the first Dumbledore knew of it. I personally doubt that Filch knew what it was so he wouldn't have showed it to Dumbledore. If he had I think that Dumbledore would have kept it himself. Either to keep it under his eye and out of anyone else's hands or to give it to Harry like the invisibility cloak? Hmmm.. maybe that is how he got the cloak(nah....)


Edit to firebolt2000: "Honestly, am I the only person who's ever bothered to read Hogwarts, A History?" said Hermione crossly to Harry and Ron.
"Probably," said Ron. "Why?"
"Because the castle's protected by more than walls, You know," said
Hermione. "There are all sorts of enchantments on it, to stop people
entering by stealth. You can't just Apparate in here. " hehehe...welcome to the boards....

Barbara Kennedy
June 3rd, 2003, 1:26 am
Perhaps he was afraid to destroy it, not knowing its properties, it could be dangerous to burn it or tear it.

Linnea
June 3rd, 2003, 1:31 am
That's a good theory....but will Harry get the map back? *sigh* I guess we have to wait for it...

Pucko
June 7th, 2003, 5:05 pm
Does the Marauders Map show people who have taken the polyjuice potion as the people they really are or the people they have become? If they show who they have become, then how come Harry saw Barty Crouch in Snapes office? If he was out of potion and therefore had turned into himself, then he would be Barty Crouch for about a month since the potion takes a while to make. If he just needed to refill his supplies, then he wouldn't appear as Crouch in case someone saw him. Even if he had almost all the ingredients for the potion and just needed to add Moody's hair, he wouldn't have time to go from Snapes office to his own, make the potion, and get to where Harry was stuck in the fake step in the time that he does. The only explanation is that the Marauders Map shows people who have taken the Polyjuice potion as who they really are.

What do you think?

Silver Phoenix
June 7th, 2003, 5:11 pm
My guess would be it probably does. Seeing as it shows Sirius and Pettigrew in animagi form in PoA. (It didn't say scabbers, it had Pettigrew's name)

I heart Sirius
June 7th, 2003, 5:16 pm
Yeah it shows people their real name even if they are someone else under polyjuice potion.

fuzzymunchie321
June 7th, 2003, 5:57 pm
yup yup

MirandaMarauder
June 7th, 2003, 6:10 pm
Yeah, that was the whole point of "Moody" taking the map from Harry--because otherwise Harry would have eventually figured out that "Moody" was Crouch Jr., because that was how he was labeled on the map.

Alastor
June 7th, 2003, 6:12 pm
When Barty jr was stealing potion ingredients from Snape's office the map showed him as Bartemius Crouch, not as Alastor Moody. And Lupin saw Sirius and Peter on the map.
So, the answer to Pucko's question is, yes it shows your real identity.

Alorra Spinnet
June 7th, 2003, 6:25 pm
Another instance of "the Maruader's Map never lies". ;)
That is a very important piece of parchment and hopefully the good guys still have it!

Nickel
June 7th, 2003, 11:32 pm
Originally posted by MirandaMarauder (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=356969#post356969))
Yeah, that was the whole point of "Moody" taking the map from Harry--because otherwise Harry would have eventually figured out that "Moody" was Crouch Jr., because that was how he was labeled on the map.


Exactly, and "Moody" was extremely taken by the map. He didn't want Harry to know who he was and was able to see himself standing there.

rotsiepots
June 8th, 2003, 1:55 am
I'm going to merge this with a topic entitled Marauder's Map Queries (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4628).

:)

Pucko
June 8th, 2003, 1:02 pm
i have been wondering about this for a while now...
how big is the marauders map? because it shows all of hogwarts, which is huge...and it shows everyone in hogwarts (~1000) labeled in miniscule writing, but it still has to be readable....
i imagined it as kinda small, maybe 6x6 inches...but it has to be bigger doesn't it?

onetruegryffindor
June 8th, 2003, 2:40 pm
i always thought it was about 20 cm square

Chalice
June 8th, 2003, 3:03 pm
It's got to be bigger than that surely? I was thinking more like A3 size. 1000 is a lot of people. It can always be folded up after all.

Chalice



'Dragons are no idle fancy. Even today you will find men not ignorant of tragic legend and history, who have yet been caught by the fascination of the worm.' - JRR Tolkien

Angelina ballerina
June 8th, 2003, 7:11 pm
I always thought it was small. And presumed it only labelled those people that were nessecary for the mischief to be carried out. When Harry is opening the witchs hump it only shows the people in the area so he knows if its safe to go in. Surely it doesn't show everyone in hogwarts. Thats also why noone ever spotted Pettigrew before Lupin did. Because he was never involved in the mischief

Puffskein
June 8th, 2003, 10:32 pm
It doesn't just show people in the immediate area. When Harry first looked at it he saw Dumbledore in his office, Peeves in the trophy room, etc. Remember that when Harry has used the map so far, most of the people in the castle were in Hogsmeade or asleep. It's possible that the map only shows people whose whereabouts are important to the user.

McKinnon02
June 9th, 2003, 6:56 pm
The map doesn't show every area of Hogwarts, just those that the original marauders knew about. The entrance to the Chamber of Secrets wasn't on there, and neither was the chamber itself.

firebolt2000
June 10th, 2003, 1:25 am
Truthfully, I don't think Fred and George used it so much. They had all the secret passages memorized, and I only think they would have used it to check on people was if they needed to make sure no professors were in their way. There are so many people in Hogwarts, they couldn't have noticed Peter Pettigrew among the thousands of other inhabitants. They also didn't think Peter was guilty, they thought Sirius was. And the map probably showed Remus and Sirius and Peter in their other names like Moony and Padfoot and Wormtail.

smartypants
June 10th, 2003, 10:43 am
Originally posted by Puffskein (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=358943#post358943))
It doesn't just show people in the immediate area. When Harry first looked at it he saw Dumbledore in his office, Peeves in the trophy room, etc. Remember that when Harry has used the map so far, most of the people in the castle were in Hogsmeade or asleep. It's possible that the map only shows people whose whereabouts are important to the user.


That could be. But it could also be explained with that it only shows people who are moving. For example, Harry did not appear on the map at first. But when he moved out of the room to the hidden tunnel entrance, he appeared. Is that because it was important (so that the little bubble with the code word could appear) or because he was moving?

Both solutions work. I'd imagine it would be easier to show only moving people than important people, but I don't know that much about magic. ;)

smartypants
June 10th, 2003, 10:45 am
> And the map probably showed Remus and
> Sirius and Peter in their other names like
> Moony and Padfoot and Wormtail.

Oh, but "Wormtail" would spark your interest more than "Peter Pettigrew" wouldn't it? ;)

Pucko
June 10th, 2003, 10:58 am
I don't think the map is big enough to show every single person...it probably only showed those who were moving, and scabbers (peter) was usually asleep on ron's bed

theodyssey42
June 15th, 2003, 7:12 pm
It clearly says in PoA:
"...a new ink figure had appeared upon it, labelled Harry Potter."

So clearly it only shows a few important people. The real Professor Moody does not even move in this story, and if Harry did happen to spot Moody in his office, he wouldn't really notice.

As for Fred/George: it isn't like Peter Pettigrew is famous, they would suspect he was a normal student who knows Ron.

I have no idea how it shows every floor, even in the book the Gryffindor common room is on the 17th floor. I imagine a plan like in a shopping centre but with a lot more floors. It must be a magical way to fit all of that onto a square of parchment.

dantares
June 17th, 2003, 6:53 pm
I'm too lazy to read through all these posts but does the map shows people from the future or past. I mean Hermione and Harry went back to the past so theortically, Lupin should have seen 2 Harry and Hermione. Snape too. Wonder why are they not shock about it?

Pucko
June 17th, 2003, 9:25 pm
Originally posted by theodyssey42 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=374480#post374480))
As for Fred/George: it isn't like Peter Pettigrew is famous, they would suspect he was a normal student who knows Ron.


I would like to think Fred and George kept track of their brother's acquaintances...there aren't that many Gryffindors, and nobody else would be on Ron's bed...

smartypants
June 18th, 2003, 3:31 pm
Originally posted by dantares (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=378647#post378647))
I'm too lazy to read through all these posts


Thats OK. But in the posts just above the one you posted, you'll see it noted that the map does not show everyone, just the ones who move.

So the time travelling Harry and Hermione would not be visible. And besides, they were outside of Hogwarts grounds, and would not be visible for that reason.

smartypants
June 18th, 2003, 3:52 pm
This is a response to a post in the Time-Turner/Time-travel thread. (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&postid=380875)

Originally posted by FlyingPhoenix (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=378415#post378415))
Snape might saw only one H/Hr in the forrest and they did move.

Then why would he have gone to the shrieking shack, and not to the forest?
I don't remember the details, but does not snape say EXACTLY what he sees? I seem to remember that he saw Harry and Hermione in the tunnel.

By Lupin he have to see H/Hr double because one H/Hr with Ron were slowly going to Hagrids hut and the other H/Hr should running to the forrest so they where moving.

No, he was looking at it at a later time, namely when Black was dragging Ron and Pettigrew down the hole. How could he otherwise have seen Pettigrew with Ron, unless it's AFTER they come from Hagrids hut?

You´re right the shrinking shack isn´t anymore hogwarts but one H/Hr are still on the ground of Hogwarts.

No, they are not. The time travelling H/Hr are just outside the grounds, in the edge of the forest.

The first H/Hr with Ron do even hear that two people running through the Hall (Later we know it was H/Hr from the future)

Oh? I missed that little detail. Cool, I gotta check it up.

So they should be present at the map.

At THAT point in time, yes, surely they are on the map. But nobody looked then...

I mean even Snape should have wondering what H/HR make with Buckbeak in the forrest.

Yes, he should. But he didn't. So therefore we can only assume that they were not visible on the map. The question is why, and the answer is, as always:

1. They were outside of Hogwarts grounds.
2. They were not moving.

If I remember right it was in POA written how Harry could see at the map himself staying in front of the one eyed witch so you don´t need to move.


Ah, but he did not appear UNTIL he had moved! Either you stay visible a short time after you have stopped, or the map showed Harry so that he would know how to open the secret door.

whizbang121
June 18th, 2003, 4:40 pm
where does it say you must be moving? I can't remember that part either.

smartypants
June 18th, 2003, 5:48 pm
It doesn't *say*. But that is one of the simplest way to explain how it is behaving, because people that show up are mostly described as moving, and none are described as standing still, and most people are obviously not shown at all.

The simplest way to explain that is that you have to be moving. Other explanations may apply too, but this one is simple, and AFAIK, works. ;)

FlyingPhoenix
June 18th, 2003, 6:08 pm
I don't remember the details, but does not snape say EXACTLY what he sees? I seem to remember that he saw Harry and Hermione in the tunnel. He discribe how Lupin enter the tunnel and we know that to this time Hermione and Harry together with Buckbeak in the forrest. I know that the forrest is at the Hogwarts ground because Moody search with the map in GoF after Crouch in the forrest.
No, he was looking at it at a later time, namely when Black was dragging Ron and Pettigrew down the hole. How could he otherwise have seen Pettigrew with Ron, unless it's AFTER they come from Hagrids hut? He saw that, too. Lupin discribe how he saw that they went to Hagrid at the map and he saw how they went after a short stop with Wormtail to the Willow where Black comes in play. All this Time lupin should see two H/Hr on the map because they were moving at the same time. That he didn´t saw the future H/Hr as he saw wormtail I do understand but not as H/Hr/R knocked at Hagrids hut and the H/Hr from the future ran to the forrest. You have to be blind if you don´t see that.The time travelling H/Hr are just outside the grounds, in the edge of the forest. the forrest is not outside the groundsBut nobody looked then... Lupin did look at the map.
The important thing is, I was watching it carefully this evening, because I had an idea that you, Ron and Hermione might try and sneak out of the castle.......The point is, even you´re wearing an Invisibility Cloak you show up on the mauraiders map. I watched you crossed the grounds and enter Hagrids hut. Twenty minutes later, you left Hagrid, and set off back towards the castle. Ah, but he did not appear UNTIL he had moved! Even if you have to move the futur H/Hr did moving like the present H/Hr did move so they have to be at the map

smartypants
June 18th, 2003, 7:19 pm
Originally posted by FlyingPhoenix (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=381155#post381155))
He discribe how Lupin enter the tunnel

So, he probably does NOT see Harry and Hermione in the forest. He probably doesn't see them at all, in that case, he just wonders why Lupin is going down in that tunnel.

I know that the forrest is at the Hogwarts ground because Moody search with the map in GoF after Crouch in the forrest.

No he didn't. He just said he did... He didn't search at all, remember, he knew EXACTLY where Crouch was, namely where he left him.

Lupin discribe how he saw that they went to Hagrid at the map and he saw how they went after a short stop with Wormtail to the Willow where Black comes in play. All this Time lupin should see two H/Hr on the map because they were moving at the same time.

No, the second H/Hr are hidden behind Hagrids hut, that is, in the forest when the first H/Hr enter. They are indeed moving after they haft left, but firstly, ther are all this time right on the border of the forest, and secondly, by this time Lupin is probably already running as heck to catch up with them, since he saw Pettigrew on the map.

I'll check this up tonight. There are tight margins, but I do not think there is anything basically wrong with how it's described.

FlyingPhoenix
June 18th, 2003, 9:33 pm
No he didn't. He just said he did... He didn't search at all, remember, he knew EXACTLY where Crouch was, namely where he left him.I know that but the point is that Harry believes him. If the forrest wasn´t at the map than Harry have to get suspicious about Moody. So the forrest is on the ground. No, the second H/Hr are hidden behind Hagrids hut, that is, in the forest when the first H/Hr enter Thats true but I mean the moment as H/HR/R went to the hut and H/HR from the future behind them running to the forest and than later to the back of the hut. I mean Lupin did see that H/HR/R went to the hut and he should see H/HR too. I mean its nearly the same way.They are after all moving till they are by the Hippogriff. They are speaking so if I take it exactly that is moving.

dantares
June 19th, 2003, 5:31 am
Maybe the map does not show people from the future. It is not possible for 2 H/Hr to show up so the Marauders never enchant it to make it show people from the future.

smartypants
June 19th, 2003, 11:02 am
Originally posted by FlyingPhoenix (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=381672#post381672))
If the forrest wasn´t at the map than Harry have to get suspicious about Moody.

That assumes that Harry knows for a fact that people in the forest does not show up. Do we know for a fact that Harry knows this for a fact? No, we don't.

But you raise some good questions. I didn't have time to check it yesterday, I'll try to remember tonight.

FlyingPhoenix
June 19th, 2003, 12:19 pm
But you raise some good questions. I didn't have time to check it yesterday, I'll try to remember tonight.
Thanks, sadly I regornise it as I reread POA before I didn´t thought twice about this. But as I read that Lupin saw at the map as the trio went to Hagrid and I read that they heard the door slamming in the entrance hall. I started to wonder. I know Lupin is concentrad at the trio but the future H/Hr are there to they are maybe 100 or 200 meters a part from each other so Lupin should see them. Maybe the map don´t show future people thats very possible. I mean if the Timeturner thing comes in future books back it did make sense. But so its interest that Lupin don´t ask or even look strange to Harry and Hermione. That assumes that Harry knows for a fact that people in the forest does not show up. Do we know for a fact that Harry knows this for a fact? No, we don't. The problem is that we not know what the map shows exactly, do we? I mean we do only know that the castle is at the map but whats with the lake or the forrest. I mean this things are on the ground of Hogwarts. But we simple don´t know if its on the map. We have no clue if Harry could see whats there going on like that other students run there around. Its not exactly discribt in canon. Seriously JKR dos that for a reason. Maybe dantares is right, but in canon is written that the map shows everything. Even if you invisibly you at the map. So there should be two H/Hr for some logical reason.

smartypants
June 19th, 2003, 12:35 pm
Originally posted by FlyingPhoenix (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=383447#post383447))
Maybe the map don´t show future people thats very possible.


Yes it's possible, but it makes time travel much more complex than how JKR describes it.

Because how would the map know that they are from the future?


[This has been discussed on the excellent time-travel thread. Check it out all of you, there's a link above.]

FlyingPhoenix
June 19th, 2003, 12:55 pm
Because how would the map know that they are from the future?
Thats the point the map don´t know it. There are simply two H/HR on the map without explaination. Thats why I think someone should (here Lupin) should get suspicious.

I know I´m on the very line between two threads but its affected this two things. I excuse myself that I bring the difficult thing like Timetravel into this thread. I simple wonder about that why Lupin didn´t see or mention it.

smartypants
June 19th, 2003, 1:04 pm
Originally posted by FlyingPhoenix (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=383494#post383494))
Thats the point the map don´t know it.

Exactly.

There are simply two H/HR on the map without explaination. Thats why I think someone should (here Lupin) should get suspicious.

Assuming that Lupin SEES two H/Hrs, and as we have seen, it is not at all clear that he does, as the other two probably are not moving when he is looking at the map, and secondly may be outside the maps range.

I think this is getting very repetetive now. I'll shut up.

ZenShadow
June 19th, 2003, 1:08 pm
Okay, this is just twisted enough for me to put my two pence in...

Conjecture: The map doesn't show the forest.

I disagree with this one, due to the fact that Barty Moody tells Harry about summoning the map into the forest in order to find Crouch Sr.; so it probably shows the forest. My guess is that the forest is technically on the grounds, esp. since the Marauders probably spent a lot of time in there chasing around after Remus...


Question: Why didn't Fred & George notice Pettigrew?

This might be easier, depending on when they found the map. They make a point of saying they've got it memorized; how long have they had it memorized? The map only shows the Hogwarts grounds. If they found the map in their first year, they had the rest of that year plus their second year before Ron (and Pettigrew) would have arrived at the castle for Ron's first year(assuming I've got the years right...).

Still leaves some possible holes, but that tightens it up a bit IMHO.


Big Twisted Question: What about the future H/Hr?

Okay, this one is fun. And it might not make much sense -- but try to stay with me here. :) When Lupin sees H/Hr, they have not yet used the time turner. Their future selves do that. So since the H/Hr aren't there yet (because they haven't talked to Dumbledore yet), it simply hasn't happened, so they aren't there when Lupin and Snape look at the map.

Of course, then they *do* use the Time Turner. Now, if Lupin came back in time and looked at the Marauders map, he'd see them, because at that point they *have* used the time turner. Make any sense?

I hate time travel :)

--ZS

FlyingPhoenix
June 19th, 2003, 1:20 pm
Okay, this one is fun. And it might not make much sense -- but try to stay with me here. When Lupin sees H/Hr, they have not yet used the time turner. Their future selves do that. So since the H/Hr aren't there yet (because they haven't talked to Dumbledore yet), it simply hasn't happened, so they aren't there when Lupin and Snape look at the map.Of course, then they *do* use the Time Turner. Now, if Lupin came back in time and looked at the Marauders map, he'd see them, because at that point they *have* used the time turner. Make any sense? It makes sense no doubt but the problem is that the future H/Hr are already there. There are everywhere sign that they there. So to show it right its happen already even its will happen. Oh thats confusing I know but how Harry said it he could do it because he did it already. I never thought much about this sentence but it makes sense. In the moment as the dementors attacked H/HR/Sirius the future Harry rescued them so as Harry did it later in the book he could do it because he has done it already. Sorry for OT. So they are on the map because its happen though its will happen later. Its like a circle. Now its happen and it will happen later again. Back in time say simply its happen double.

waterboyalz
June 19th, 2003, 1:46 pm
I agree that the Marauder's Map shows people in the forest. Barty Crouch Jr. was watching the map for any signs of his father. When Barty Crouch Sr. appeared to Harry and Krum, they were at the edge of the forest, i would assume the same amount from the open ground as H/Hr were in PoA. Barty Crouch Jr. saw his father walk onto the map. That means the map shows just the edge of the forest? :??:

smartypants
June 19th, 2003, 1:53 pm
Originally posted by ZenShadow (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=383506#post383506))
Okay, this one is fun. And it might not make much sense -- but try to stay with me here. :) When Lupin sees H/Hr, they have not yet used the time turner. Their future selves do that. So since the H/Hr aren't there yet (because they haven't talked to Dumbledore yet), it simply hasn't happened, so they aren't there when Lupin and Snape look at the map.

No, they ARE there. See the time travel thread for discussion on that topic.

Make any sense?

Yes, but it doesn't fit with how time travel works in the books.

ZenShadow
June 19th, 2003, 2:20 pm
Originally posted by FlyingPhoenix (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=383524#post383524))
Oh thats confusing I know but how Harry said it he could do it because he did it already. I never thought much about this sentence but it makes sense.


Actually, that brings up another gaping hole in my theory -- if they weren't there the first time, Harry's dead, and can never go back to save Harry and Co.

Gawd, this stuff makes my head hurt! Why do all the books I like end up dealing with time travel, which I despise? :banghead:

--ZS

ZenShadow
June 19th, 2003, 2:27 pm
Originally posted by waterboyalz (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=383564#post383564))
I agree that the Marauder's Map shows people in the forest. Barty Crouch Jr. was watching the map for any signs of his father. When Barty Crouch Sr. appeared to Harry and Krum, they were at the edge of the forest, i would assume the same amount from the open ground as H/Hr were in PoA. Barty Crouch Jr. saw his father walk onto the map. That means the map shows just the edge of the forest? :??:


I actually just went and checked this out of curiosity... Crouch says this:


...At last, one evening, the map showed my father entering the grounds. [...] He was walking around the edge of the forest. Then Potter came, and Krum. [...]


While that doesn't really say the forest is on the map, it sort of implies it, IMHO. Hmmmm. This looks like a sticky mistake on JKR's part! :) And I'm amazed that I didn't catch the whole thing about H2/Hr2 being on the map. I've read the thing four times, and it just never occurred to me. I must be getting dimmer... :cool:

--ZS

smartypants
June 19th, 2003, 2:30 pm
Originally posted by ZenShadow (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=383598#post383598))
Gawd, this stuff makes my head hurt! Why do all the books I like end up dealing with time travel, which I despise? :banghead:


Cool down and read the time travel thread. Especially my posts. ;)

It's reall, really easy. Honestly.

smartypants
June 19th, 2003, 2:34 pm
Originally posted by ZenShadow (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=383606#post383606))
While that doesn't really say the forest is on the map, it sort of implies it, IMHO.

Well, he could be walking 'in and out' of the grounds in confusion, or some parts of the forest can be visible, but not others.

Hmmmm. This looks like a sticky mistake on JKR's part!

Not nessecarily, becuase for the most part the time travelling Harry kept still, and would probably not have shown up even if he was in an area shown on the map.

ZenShadow
June 19th, 2003, 3:08 pm
Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=383617#post383617))
Well, he could be walking 'in and out' of the grounds in confusion, or some parts of the forest can be visible, but not others.


Possible, but that's not the way I read it. Seemed pretty straightforward to me -- sometimes it's best just to take things at face value...


Not nessecarily, becuase for the most part the time travelling Harry kept still, and would probably not have shown up even if he was in an area shown on the map.


There are implications in the text to immobile people being on the map (eg, Harry being worried about being spotted on the staircase when Snape sees the map), so I tend to lean that way -- but I think there's more to the map than we know about, and there are plenty of other possible explanations. My personal feeling is that JKR missed this particular detail, or chose not to explain it in the expectation that not many people would catch it. I'm happy with that -- it doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the story :) And hey, as proven here and in the time travel thread, it gives us all something to talk about between books...

BTW, I did read a fair bit of the time travel thread (including your posts), and I don't think it's as easy as you make it out to be -- the fact is that time travel is a really complicated subject to understand, let alone write about, unless you presume some sort of "fate" force (which I don't).

I think this is one of those issues where we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

--ZS (I should probably go to bed at some point, lest I manage to start trying to address topics from 42 different threads in a single post!)

smartypants
June 19th, 2003, 4:04 pm
Originally posted by ZenShadow (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=383662#post383662))
-- the fact is that time travel is a really complicated subject to understand, let alone write about, unless you presume some sort of "fate" force (which I don't).

It's not the least bit complicated the way I describe it. All you have to realize is that one point in time only exists in one version.

No fate involved.

smartypants
July 7th, 2003, 7:22 pm
Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=383403#post383403))
But you raise some good questions. I didn't have time to check it yesterday, I'll try to remember tonight.


I have finally checked it. And my conclusion is the following:

Lupin sais that he was watching the map closely since he thought Harry, Hermione and Ron might sneak out to Hagrids. And he was right. Now, didn't he see Harry and Hermione dashing behind the greehouse round the Womping Willow and then to the forest before they disappeared off the map? Well, it's possible. He could have looked a way just this little time. Or poured some tea. Harry, Hermione and Ron has to walk all three of them under the invisibility cloak. That were going slowly. Harry and Hermione was running full speed to the forest, and might have been on the map only for a minute or two.

But it's also equally possible that he DID see them. Would that have made him confused? Most likely (unless he knew Hermione had the time-turner). So why didn't he say anything?

Well, firstly, what should he have said? Should he, in the shrieking shack, when he is busy trying to convince Harry, Hermine and Ron NOT to kill Black, that he saw two Harrys on the map? No, that's not the time to do that. It's irrelevant. One thing at a time, and he had more important things to do right then.

Secondly, the narrative imperative strikes again. What would you as READER have thought if he suddenly starts blubbering about two Harrys on the map? We don't know that Hermione has the time-turner yet. It might not confuse Hermione, but it would confuse us!

Why didn't he say something later? Well, he did. The first thing he takes up when he meets them while packing hes stuff the day after is that Dumbledore told him that they saved two lives yesterday. By now, he knows why there is two Harrys and Two Hermiones on the map. Does he need to tell Harry and Hermoine that he saw this? Nah, they already know that there was two of them. Does JKR need to tell the readers? Well, no, it's not nessecary for the story.

So, did JKR make a mistake? Maybe. She might not have thought about Lupin seeing two Harrys. But on the other hand, even if she DID think about it, nothing would have changed. The characters would have said the same thing.

Confused yet?

:huh: :wow: :??: :grumble: :banghead: :scared: :stuckin:

FlyingPhoenix
July 7th, 2003, 7:34 pm
Not bad, not bad.
I like this thoughts but I would have really thought a little hint would have done it. Like a strange frown by the sight of them in the shrieking shack or as he told them about how he looked at the map. Only I lighty hint that he is surprise or even confused but there isn´t anything.

I wouldn´t come to that if there weren´t signs from the second H/Hr in the entrance hall there was it, too only one sentence what told me they were there. But I got it after I knew that they can timetravel. So if Lupin frown or looks confused as he tell them he saw them on the map I did understand it after the Hermiones secret. Only an akward moment and it did fine but so its looks like a mistake. A small one but still a mistake IMO.

Mander
July 7th, 2003, 8:10 pm
Originally posted by Severely Snapped (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=130565#post130565))
I think Fred and George have had the map for awhile, and they don't need to even look at it anymore. I think they say something to this effect when they "bequeath" it to Harry, i.e., that they know all the secret passages by heart by now.


exactly what I was thinking.And Scabbers was Percey's rat before that? Hm..i dunno, fred and george didn't really say when they found it.

Ms.Sirius
July 8th, 2003, 12:49 am
I agree in the respect that they probably did use it from time to time to check if the entrance to the passage was clear. And they only needed to look at that certain area and see if any teachers were near. That is why they didnt notice Peters name.
:D

smartypants
July 8th, 2003, 11:23 am
Originally posted by FlyingPhoenix (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=431225#post431225))
I like this thoughts but I would have really thought a little hint would have done it. Like a strange frown by the sight of them in the shrieking shack or as he told them about how he looked at the map. Only I lighty hint that he is surprise or even confused but there isn´t anything.

So, maybe he knows about the time turner?
He might have seen two Hermiones on the map before... and asked Dumbledore about this strange occurence... :yup:


I'm really reaching for it now... ;D

inoLIKEmonkeys
July 13th, 2003, 4:38 pm
listen the reason that they didnt notice petegrew was that the map dosnt show everybody in the school when harry first recieves the map it only shows the staff and ms. noris but when harry wants to make sure all the students get safly back to their dometories after a DA meeting it shows you them. THE MAP ONLY SHOWS THE PEOPLE YOU WISH TO SEE.

mrscoach
July 24th, 2003, 11:05 pm
I did a search, but didn't find anything.
In GoF, Harry is leaving the Prefect's bathroom with his golden egg, and sees "Bartemus Crouch" in Snape's office. We now know that this was actually Barty Jr, disguised as Moody via the Polyjuice potion. My question is, when Moody catches up with Snape, Harry and Filch, and Moody and Harry are finally left alone, Moody asks Harry to show him how the map works. Why didn't Harry notice that on the map standing right next to him was "Bartemus Crouch?" Was this a book mistake? Shouldn't the map have said that, since it showed Barty's true identification correctly when he broke into Snape's office? :??:

aiko amaya
July 24th, 2003, 11:08 pm
Well I find that harry doesn't pay much attention to details and in all the curfuflle and the releif that he wasn't in trouble he didn't really have much time to think about that first. Plus now we know that Moody was actually Barty, so we think it's so obvious now when then it didn't occur to us. And if it did, it probably wouldn't have been to you if you were in harry's possition.

psychofan
July 25th, 2003, 6:59 am
At the time, Harry thought that he was going to have to answer awkward questions, and had just gone through the ordeal of having Filch and Snape corner him with the Invisibility cloak. I don't think he was examining it as he handed it to Moody.

Crystalle
July 25th, 2003, 12:22 pm
fred and george probably just found it not knowing what the hell it was and then realised they could sneak around the school with it but be too busy causing mischeif with it to think of the uses such as finding out the bad guys and the chamber of secrets etc etc

Ellen
July 26th, 2003, 11:14 pm
An odd thought just hit me about the map. When Harry's first given it, he wonders if it might be one of those dangerous, magical artifacts like Riddle's diary. Of course, by the end of the book, we find out the map was his father's. Whew. No more worries, right?

Well, maybe.

I was wondering how Fred and George figured out how to use it. Even for them, waving a wand over it and saying they solemnly promise they are up to no good seems a bit unlikely. Then, I thought how it would have been a lot easier if they could have asked one of the Marauders.

Then, I remembered that one of the Marauders was living in their home. Before Ron came, Scabbers would have been at school with them and Percy.

If Scabbers found some way to secretly get Fred and George the information (they woke up and found the map set to its help page, perhaps?) then I think I can solemnly swear that he was up to no good.

So, the question is did Fred and George really come up with the idea of giving it to Harry all by themselves or is there something not good about the map that we should know?

abSRD85
July 26th, 2003, 11:20 pm
I like your thinking Ellen. There are a lof of unanswered questions (I.E. How did Harry get it back after GoF?), but I don't think there is anything completly bad about it. I mean Wormtail didn't make the map by himself. He had to have had the help of the other 3. So even though I see your point,and maybe a future sub-plot, I don't think there is anything bad about the marauders map.

Rowena Ravenclaw
July 26th, 2003, 11:24 pm
I still think the map recognized kindred spirits in Fred and George, and responded accordingly.

Also, Fred and George kept the map's existence pretty well hidden from everyone else. Unless Wormtail was in the habit of conducting thorough searches of every family member's belongings (which he might have been, though I think he'd have considered the risk of discovery too great), how would he even have found out they had it?

Pigwidgeon
July 26th, 2003, 11:52 pm
If the map was truly dangerous wouldn't Lupin warn Harry about the prospect? He knew he had the map and I think he, being the responsible marauder, would have not allowed Harry to have it back at the end of PoA if he thought it would do anything to jeopardize his safety.

otto lupin
July 27th, 2003, 12:27 am
i agree with rowena ravenclaw, the map can reconize the difference between a marauder or future maurauder and a git, thats why it gave the weaslys the passward. But after the map has been activated its free game, fake moody

Potter_fan
July 27th, 2003, 3:09 pm
I don't think it has anything to do with bad. But it is weird how Fred and Gerge found out how to use it.

Kendra
July 27th, 2003, 3:14 pm
Maybe they asked them?

"this is Fred and George Weasley, devout troublemakers from Hogwarts, we stole you and want to know what it is that darling Filch conviscated."

I also want to know how Filtch found it. Man, that map must tell stories!

I want Harry and co to try talking to it, maybe he will now Sirius has gone?

FreyaCrescent
July 27th, 2003, 3:23 pm
First thing that came to mind was that it might not have been wiped clear when it got confiscated, but then Filch wouldn't have stored it away, it'd have been a great tool for him in his war against students. Unless... the map wasn't able to be viewed by Squibs.. or even just guarded against Filch's eyes...

It is pretty weird though - I doubt Fred and George would have just taken a little piece of grubby old parchment.. although, it was in the "Highly Dangerous" drawer.. Hmmm.

They probably just asked it. Maybe it can sense a new owner - when Harry didn't know the password to the statue it appeared in a little speech bubble. Something similar might have happened when the Weasley twins were examining it.

Back to Ellen's last point: It's a great theory, and could be quite plausible really :) But I'd think Scabbers would have wanted to keep as low a profile as possible.. I just think the Weasley's felt genuinely sorry for Harry when he couldn't go to Hogsmeade with his friends and decided to give him a little help. Harry, Ron and Hermione do seem to be their years troublemakers, after all ;) And so the Weasley twins handed it down to them.

Lord Thingy
July 27th, 2003, 3:25 pm
I think Helhorns has it right on the nose.

When Snape "a master of Hogwarts" commanded the map to reveal its secrets, it just insulted him. It also showed Harry the location and password to get into one of the secret passages.

Likely, Fred and George asked it politely. I imagine them saying something very similar to Helhorns' quote, and, recognizing kindred spirits, obliged them with a little cartoon of one of them tapping their wand to the map and saying "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good!"

Amylou
July 27th, 2003, 3:28 pm
i agree with rowena ravenclaw, the map can reconize the difference between a marauder or future maurauder and a git, thats why it gave the weaslys the passward. But after the map has been activated its free game, fake moody

I also agree. I think it can tell the difference. Remember when Snape tried to make the map show itself and it insulted Snape to no end.. :lol: aahh, good times. Anyway, it could tell that Snape was a git who wanted to punish Harry for carrying it so it didn't reveal itself. I don't think it's evil, but I like your theory Ellen. :tu:

Amylou
July 27th, 2003, 3:30 pm
Sorry Lord Thingy...just repeated what you said. Glad we think alike. :lol:

Kizz
July 27th, 2003, 4:11 pm
"this is Fred and George Weasley, devout troublemakers from Hogwarts, we stole you and want to know what it is that darling Filch conviscated."

"Error 404 -The Marauders' are having technical difficulties at the moment, an owl has been dispatched to the admin"

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I agree with Rowena Ravenclaw, I also think it would have revealed itself to anyone not in authority...but your Scabber's theory Ellen is an interesting theory - but Scabbers/Wormtail/Pettigrew never did anything for anyone unless it would have paid off for him - unless it would pay off for him...

turbotriple_power
August 13th, 2003, 5:03 pm
In PoA When Snape looked at Harry's map didn't he see that Harry and Hermione were at the time with Lupin and Sirius and that they were outside with Buck??
It's kind of weird to me...
Any ideas???

_________________

http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/lagazette/images/4-picture2.jpg"I told you!" Ron hissed at Hermione as she stared down the article. "I told you not to annoy Rita Skeeter! She's made you out to be some sort of-scarlet woman!"
Hermione stopped looking atonished and snorted with laughter. "Scarlet woman?" she repeated, shaking with surpressed giggles as she looked around at Ron.
"It's what my mum calls them," Ron muttered, his ears going red.:lol:

Dedalus Diggle
August 13th, 2003, 5:08 pm
Yeah, I thought of that too - I think it's that it shows only those who are in your time-continuum. The time-turner is a much deeper magic than the Marauders Map, as opposed to Polyjuice and the Invisibility Cloak, which do not fool the Map. :shrug:

PotionsGoddess46
August 13th, 2003, 5:32 pm
Yeah, I thought of that too - I think it's that it shows only those who are in your time-continuum. The time-turner is a much deeper magic than the Marauders Map, as opposed to Polyjuice and the Invisibility Cloak, which do not fool the Map. :shrug:

I always assumed the the Marauder's Map showed your present time.

turbotriple_power
August 13th, 2003, 5:38 pm
Yeah suppose you guys are right about this...
But it is still coufusing to me thow...
Becayse it was all in the same time...

Cobra245063
August 13th, 2003, 6:09 pm
Yeah suppose you guys are right about this...
But it is still coufusing to me thow...
Becayse it was all in the same time...

Yeah my thoughts too. But, perhaps as soon as Snape saw that Lupin was running down the path to the Shack Snape left at once. Snape thought "uh-oh Lupin's doing something he shouldn't be. I'm gonna be a stupid jerk and go after him." His own ego got in the way of his observance(sp?).

smartypants
August 14th, 2003, 7:02 am
Of course, the real reason the Snape doesn't see Harry and Hermione on the map is because of the Narrative Imperative. The necessity of the story just doesn't let him see them, so he don't. But if we want to explain this in the way the map works, there are many possibilities, but none have yet come up with one without holes. ;)

shanobyl
August 14th, 2003, 10:43 am
or maybe they thought Pettigrew is the name of a student or something

the 5th Marauder
August 15th, 2003, 8:38 am
Hmmm... i reckon the map shows you're present time. But with all these theories, perhaps JKR is going to tell us more about the map in later books... there's still alot of stuff we don't know about it, by the looks of things!

MoonyX
August 19th, 2003, 12:02 am
[I'm sure this was mentioned but I was too lazy to read all 6 pages]
I always wondered how Fred and George never saw it say Peter Pettigrew if they were living w/ "Scabbers" I'm sure it'll go into more detail in later books though..

wheezes4weasleys
August 19th, 2003, 3:33 am
How come Harry has never attempted to talk to the map when Snape did and it answered him back! It would answer a lot of his questions and he would be able to talk to his dad during his teenage years!

smartypants
August 19th, 2003, 12:37 pm
Yeah, good question!

I have a new theory of the map. Take the sorting hat. It can read your mind, and it possesses a lot of knowledge that the founders of Hogwarts put into it so it could sort effectively. My theory about the map, is that it does somewhat the same. It reads your mind, and uses that information together with all the knowledge of Hogwarts that was put into it to show you what you want to know. Now, maybe the maps responses to Snape is "preprogrammed". Or maybe it just responded becuase it wanted to, because it realized that it actually was Snape, and that it can think for itself. And in that case, solemny swearing that you are up to no good is not the actual keyword. In fact, any way of trying to read the map will show it, IF YOU ARE UP TO NO GOOD! Now, of course, Snape is never up to no good, in the eyes of the creator, so he would never be able to read it. Neither would Filch. But this explains how the twins was able to get it to work. It would be dead easy for them. ;)

If it CAN think for itself, then indeed, maybe after solemny swearing that you are up to no good, Harry would be able to ask the map loads of things. Or more likely, the map would read his mind, so if he just thought about it, the map would show him.

Hpmons
August 19th, 2003, 12:47 pm
I agree with smartypants!

Ive always had the vague thought there was something else about it, ever since I read the 3rd book. Even when Harry got the map, he remebered Arthur Weasleys words (Never trust anything unless you can see where it keeps its brain; or something to that effect)

I doubt the map can actually tell him things, apart form if its to do with the map itself.

Life when Harry first went to Hogsmeade - he didnt know what to do, but the map showed Harry holding his wand out, so he did so. Then it even said the spell, and Harry did it and it worked. i think that if Harry wanted to use the map like this again, it would work.

smartypants
August 19th, 2003, 1:28 pm
How much the map can tell him is ouf course dependant on what the map knows. And we don't know enough about the magic process used to create it to even guess about that, unfortunately. Does it have memory? If it does, then it could tell Harry loads. :D

ilovesirius
August 31st, 2003, 3:50 pm
I really hope that Remus will explain more about the map in book 6 or 7. I think it could be a very powerful weapon and I wonder if Dumbledore has something similar since he seems to know what's going in Hogwarts nearly all the time...

Tarawyn
September 29th, 2003, 12:24 am
I'm going to merge this with another thread on questions about the Map. :)

hesdead-dealwithit
September 29th, 2003, 1:12 am
I wonder if Dumbledore has something similar since he seems to know what's going in Hogwarts nearly all the time...
I doubt it. Remember DD's reaction when he heard about a map? I don't think he has anything at ALL like it.

MotherBear1975
December 7th, 2003, 6:41 am
'ere's a Mauraders Map question... How did Harry get it back? Last we knew Crouch had it and told Dumbledore... and my impression was that DD wasn't pleased about the map...

MadMagic
December 7th, 2003, 6:44 am
I don't really think Dumbledore wasn't pleased with the map. I think it has to be assumed that Dumbledore gave the map back to Harry. I think it was an oversight by JK that it wasn't mentioned how Harry got it back.