Sibyll Trelawney's First Prediction!

Okay, you know when Dumbledore said that the trance Prof. Trelawney went into brought her total number of correct predictions up to two?

What was the first one???

I think that she prophecised that a child born to the Potters would be Voldie's downfall, so he tries to kill the Potter's kid so he can't grow up and defeat Voldie.. but lo and behold. Harry defeats him then and there.. spooky:devil:

That is an incredible theory. I think you are right about the first prediction having something to do with Harry and Voldermort. And It was pretty "spooky" how she went into the trance.

Well there is a thread kinda like this: could Harry have been profecized (spelling?) (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151)
I don't know if that is enough to close this thread down though because that thread is a theory. This thread can be one for people to post their ideas.

Perhaps Dumbledore was referring to her accurately predicting that she was having porridge one morning? :grin:

But i'd suggest that she may have predicted Harry's importane in the downfall of Voldemort.
Or even that the Potter's were going to be killed. Perhaps thats why Hagrid was so quick to get Harry from the scene. Dumbledore knew and sent him straight away?

Originally posted by El Kabong
And It was pretty "spooky" how she went into the trance.

just spooky? I got really worked up. I can just imagine how they will do it in the film (i have loads of imagination)pretty scary i can say. as far as the first prediction is concerned, well, i think that it is something to do with Harry surviving...

The first prediction is probably an important prediction, and I don't think DD would mention a lucky guess as a first prediction. I think that WhiteBumblebee has a really good theroy, that a child born by the Potters would be the Dark Lord's downfall, problem is, that child did not need to grow up to be his downfall.

And that probably was what surprised everyone. It could be that everyone knew about the first prediction, including (or especially) Dumbledore and Voldemort.

Perhaps the prediction was more general than "Harry," such as "a male of the Potter line," which could be either James or Harry. Voldemort's response to the prediction could have been to kill both James and Harry, assuming that if Harry grew up he would be dangerous. It would have surprised everyone that a toddler could have "defeated" Voldemort.

I would say that that kind of prediction might be what led to Trelawney's appointment as Hogwarts' Divination Professor.

Originally posted by HogwartsChaplain
Perhaps the prediction was more general than "Harry," such as "a male of the Potter line," which could be either James or Harry. Voldemort's response was to the prediction could have been to kill both James and Harry, assuming that if Harry grew up he would be dangerous.

Maybe that was why Voldie didn't really feel the need to kill Lily :??:

If Trelawny's first prediction is true, so it must have happened already. It also must have been very important. I think that this idea about Harry being Voldemort's downfall is quite possible. :) And HogwartsChaplain made a very good point about it. :yup:

This has to do with the heir of Gryffindor theory. Perhaps Trelawny said that their Heir of Gryffindor would be the downfall of the heir of Slytherin. That's why Voldemort wanted to kill both James and Harry, because they were both heirs. But he didn't have to kill Lily, because she was Muggleborn and not the heir of anyone magical. Perhaps James and Harry were the last two of Gryffindor's line, and if they were both dead, Voldie, the heir of Slytherin, would not have to worry about Trelawny's prediction.

Hmmm, i think you have something there Katie, i think that it is a possible explanation. one way or another Voldie new that a male Potter would destroy him somehow and that is why he was after them and told Lily that she didnt have to die

. Perhaps James and Harry were the last two of Gryffindor's line, and if they were both dead, Voldie, the heir of Slytherin, would not have to worry about Trelawny's prediction.

if so how would Voldemort know it was James and Harry that were the last remaining heirs and not someone shall we say Ron and on that fact i believe Lily was the last heir and since the first prediction says a midget in glasses would be YKW's downfall he thought sugar shouldn't have sold the Potters those glasses:banghead:

Yeah, and that would quite suit JK because it would be a perfect example of a self-fulfilling prophecy like in Oedipus and all those ancient greek tragedies: Vol hears that Harry/Gryffindor's heir/ a Potter will be his downfall - he tries to kill Harry because of this - thereby walking right into his doom.

Ahh. I forgot... I wouldn't really like Trelawney to have made this prediction. There are so many wizards out there so why let one do all the important prophecies? It wouldn't feel "real" to me.

It would be nice...but I doubt heir theories because they're a little too obvious, a little too apparent, and it'd be very Rowling-esque to lead us just about directly to something, only to turn away inches from the goal.

As for what the prophecy was...maybe it wasn't even that detailed. Maybe it was simply a prophecy that stated that Voldemort would eventually meet a rival, the one person who would have the strength and ability to defeat him. It's very likely that Harry would be that person, and a teenager successfully performing complex charms is a show of strength; his relative common sense has been shown; and Dumbledore is excellent at judging people, though he does make mistakes. The truth is that we don't have enough information to decide what the prophecy was.

Why Not Trelawney, even if there are other Diviners out there? Someone had to do it, I guess, If it had to be done at all. And ridiculous as she is most of the time, I guess she has to have her moment too. If she were a prophet in ancient Israel, however, all her failed predictions would discount her as a prophetess at all. Might even get her stoned. The theory presented, that her prediction concerned Voldemort's downfall and the person who would be the means of it, is a good guess, and I imagine Rowling will be specific on this eventually.

I have always thought she prophesized harry as well! great theory this one is :)

I'm sure the reference is another foreshadow. Has JKR actually said that we'll find out what the prediction was?

In another thread it was pointed out that Trelawney called him the Dark Lord in the trance and that only DE's called him that.
I wonder if the trance came from there?

I think it would have said the heir of Slytherin and Griffindor will rule the magic world since he/she got the best blood. Lily is Slytherin's heir (not Voldemort, he mistaken himself as the last heir but the true fact is that is another) because Lily's eyes are green and green is for Slytherin. While James must be Griffindor's heir. Who would have tought the loggerheads will have their heir to marry and born a son that is more powerful than Dumbledore.

Originally posted by dantares
I think it would have said the heir of Slytherin and Griffindor will rule the magic world since he/she got the best blood. Lily is Slytherin's heir (not Voldemort, he mistaken himself as the last heir but the true fact is that is another) because Lily's eyes are green and green is for Slytherin. While James must be Griffindor's heir. Who would have tought the loggerheads will have their heir to marry and born a son that is more powerful than Dumbledore.

That would make Harry the heir of both Gryffindor and Slytherin, and we know he's not the heir of Slytherin from CoS. Voldemort is the heir because he could open the Chamber AND control the basilisk, Harry could only open the Chamber.

Harry could be the heir of Gryffindor but not be related to him. I don't think Godric is the type of person that would limit it to blood only. He would care about character.
Godric Gryffindor is a very, very cool dude.

I'm of the thought there could be two possible things that she might of forseen.

a) The death of James and Lily. The reasons no one acted upon this could be numerous. Dumbledore might of recognised it as a greater propicey that without their death the world might be in Voldemorts clutch forever.

b) Harrys destiny. It might be possible that she had a vision of everything that would come to pass about Harry. So then this is how Dumbledore knows all those little things about what Harry and Co. get up to...

why doesnt harry ask any questions. every time Dd says something mysterious we fans go HARRY, ASK WHY! and what he usually do? say nothing, then ends up under the care of madame pomfrey in the next chapter,
harry u fool of a took (my new fav phrase) ask Dd about Trelawney's first prediction, pretty please?!?!?!

sry y'all, im far too curious for a hobbit, its most unnatural

Yeah, that gets on my nerves a wee bit too. It'll probably make it all the more satisfying when we finally found out though.

Justin, Harry was taught not to ask questions by the Dursleys.
And wouldn't you be nervous to ask Dumbledore something? He's most likely to say it is none of his buisness anyway.

i know this was a couple of posts back, but i dont think voldy skipped over lilly just becuse he didn't want her. he was ruthless, and he hated mudbloods, which was exactly what lilly was, giving him all the more reason to hate her. i think he would gladly have killed her. i wonder what made him not want to. maybe he just wnated to have a mother have to watch her son die. plus, harry would have died had lilly stepped aside or if voldy had gone after lilly first since she wouldn't have sacrificedherself, so i guess voldy skipping over her makes the whole series possible but it HAS to be more complicated than that. hmmmmm..........

I think that you're taking what Dumbledor said too literally and seriously. It is most likely that he said this to indicate that she has a very small number of predictions that actually come true.

yeah, i dont necesarrily think he was being truthful when he said that (sounded like a joke to me). and also, trelawney doesnt seem the modest type, so if she had made a real prediciton about something big, dont u think she would have boasted about it in class? especially if it had to do with harry defeating voldemort?

Trelawney did not recall making her prediction in PoA at all. She came back to herself and thought she had drifted off to sleep.

I also do not think that any one in this thread over analyzed. Even if it was funny, DD was still being serious about her predictions. He seemed mildly impressed.. remember?

Even if, hypothetically speaking, Trelawney's first prediction was that Harry would be the cause of Voldemort's downfall, this prediction has already been fulfilled and is no longer of relevance. Harry did cause Voldemort's downfall as a baby.

I don't think predictions can be fulfilled more than once, so perhaps Harry won't be the cause of Voldemort's final destruction. The question then begs; who will?

Harry could be the heir of Gryffindor but not be related to him. I don't think Godric is the type of person that would limit it to blood only. He would care about character.

Exactly! I could not agree more. Lets not confuse HEIR with DESCENDANT. Harry may be Gryffindor's heir, because he has all the abilities Godric appreciated in his students, but not be his descendants. Remember the big theme of the books: it's not important what you are born with, but what you become!

I had a brain wave last night while reading PoA. Could it be Trelawny's prediction that make Sirius fear crystal balls so much?

Roz.

Sirius fears crystal balls? Where did it say that?

I dont remember anything about Sirius fearing the crystal ball. You must mean Lupin. Trelawney said Lupin practically ran away when she offered him a crystal gaze. I believe he was just running because she's a crazy old ****.

"I wonder why Professor Lupin's frightened of crystal balls?" asked Lavender. Quite a nice little red herring.

My accommodation block at university is lit with big round fluorescent lights, and I'm always thinking how much Lupin would hate them.

Could Sybil have said that the Phoenix would decide the champions for the final fight - that could be why Fawkes only gave two feathers and why the wands choose Tom Riddle and Harry.
The order of the phoenix was then created to assist the chosen one fulfill the predication. Coudl explain why Dumbledore was advised when harry bought the second wand and Olivanders comment " we can expect great things".

Maybe this DDs big statement to harry?

Originally posted by Spitf1re (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=180515#post180515))
I dont remember anything about Sirius fearing the crystal ball. You must mean Lupin. Trelawney said Lupin practically ran away when she offered him a crystal gaze. I believe he was just running because she's a crazy old ****.


Yeah I meant Lupin - sorry.

Roz.

Lupin---is afraid of the moon not crystal balls...but anyway,

I like your idea, hermiones mum. Although I kinda thought the prediction was something about the death of the Potters, the brother wands thing is another good idea....interesting.....

Did the centaurs come up with the same prediction as Trelawney? Who would Dumbledore believe if they differed?

Just came across this little pearl of wisdom#
The Sibyl were women in ancient Greece and Rome who lived in caves and were renowned for their gift of prophecy. Just invert the I and Y and you have a Hogwarts teacher.

Woah....the thing about Sibyl is really cool. I need to look more carefully at my Dictionary of Classical Mythology. I already found Sirius and Remus in there, but I never even thought of that one.

I really like this theory about Trelawney's first prediction.

And to take this a step further... a lot of Dumbledore's staff has had some type of link connecting them to Harry before Harry was even aware he was a wizard. Do you think we will hear other teachers tell tales of how their lives have crossed the Potter family?

Im still confused as to why ppl think Voldy didnt want to kill Lilly. I dont think he'd have killed her husband, stepped past her, killed her son, apologised for the disturbance and left. The guy's a psychopathic sadist.

Her sacrifice was to cast the spell to protect Harry, instead of to protect herself. perhaps she knew that it needed that sacrifice for the spell to work, and if she cast it around herself, it wouldnt work, and both of them would die anyway? Or perhaps trying to save her son seemed more important to her than saving herself? I think she'd have died anyway.

It also does belittle Lilly's role somewhat, dont you think? She was the person who could have survived - oh and inadvertently cast the spell that meant trying to hurt Harry resulted in the death of Voldermort. But she's a minor character really...

and i do think it's curious that the effect only protects Harry from one person - Voldemort. Doesnt stop anyone else from picking on him...

That is something to think about. Maybe her "other" prediction is about Harry in some way. I wonder though, how long she has been at Hogwarts. Maybe she predicted Voldemort going bad.

What if her first prediction wasn't related to Harry at all? It might have been about something else, and it doesn't even have to be related to the storyline, either.

She might have predicted all the kinds of dishes the house elves were going to cook for a feast, maybe...

maybe she predicted the outcome of the whole Voldemort and Harry thing. But then I dunno cuz how would DD it was the true prediction

I havent read all of the thread, but this is my idea: The prediction was that a descendant of Gryffindor will defeat Vol/descendant of Slytherin. This also explains why Vol said he didnt have to kill Lily (he does actually say that in book 4), as he only needed to kill descendants of Gry.

BTW in case any of you think this, Lily couldnt have been a DE, because she was a muggle.

she was muggle-born like Hermoine but she was still a witch

Originally posted by HogwartsChaplain (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=12099#post12099))
And that probably was what surprised everyone. It could be that everyone knew about the first prediction, including (or especially) Dumbledore and Voldemort.

Perhaps the prediction was more general than "Harry," such as "a male of the Potter line," which could be either James or Harry. Voldemort's response to the prediction could have been to kill both James and Harry, assuming that if Harry grew up he would be dangerous. It would have surprised everyone that a toddler could have "defeated" Voldemort.

I would say that that kind of prediction might be what led to Trelawney's appointment as Hogwarts' Divination Professor.


I agree completely with this analysis. This prediction reminds me of the birth Jesus when Herod was told that a male baby was going to be the King and so he tried to kill all the infant boys in Israel. If I remember correctly something similar happened with Moses as well. In all three cases the infant survived and went on to fulfill the prediction.

I don't think that Voldemort's weakening when he tried to kill Harry counts as the prediction being fulfilled. (Not that we know what it is). I'm sure the prediction was more complex and there is more to come . . .

Trelawney could have made her first perdiction when she was with D and then not remembering it just like in PoA.
it could have been about the downfall of voldermort.
with either james or harry defeating him and so he wanting to kill them.

*bump*

I think that the prediction is important and about the rise and fall of the dark side, namely Voldemort

I doubt JKR would have even thrown in the line about the first prediction coming true if it didn't relate to the story line. My best guess is that it is, indeed, something in general about the heir of Gryffindor beating the heir of Slytherin, which came true when Harry was a baby.

It doesn't actually state anywhere in any of the books that Lily was muggle-born. I think it's just as likely that either one (or both) of Lily's parents were squibs, with the magical talent skipping a generation. That would explain why Lily's parents were proud to have a witch in the family, instead of shocked or scared like most muggle parents would be at the news.

Sorry, I hit the wrong button, there was more.... I also think that the prediction is what Dumbledore sits Harry down to talk about (the line released by Scholastic- what D should have told Harry long ago).

I think it is also why Voldie wanted to kill him. Harry asked him about it in PS/SS, and D said he could not answer that question. I also think that is why Harry doesn't ask all of the questions we are begging him to ask... he has been shot down by D before, not to mention we as readers have the advantage of being removed and being able reread and speculate.

Having said that....I wish he would wise up and start asking those questions!!!

Harry's human, just like us. He asks questions as they occur to him and when he thinks he might get an answer. He tends not to ask if he thinks he's not going to get anywhere. There are a couple of times he wants to ask Dumbledore additional questions, but refrains.

Besides, if Harry asked all the questions we wish he'd ask, and got the answers then and there, what would be the point of the series?! It's the journey, not the destination, guys.

Originally posted by miri (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=189705#post189705))
Im still confused as to why ppl think Voldy didnt want to kill Lilly.


It's because he told Harry "Your mother needn't have died."

I think the prophecy was something fairly general too - that a Potter would bring about the fall of the Voldemort, or prehaps that the secret keeper would betray his friends...

And I'm also pretty convinced that the prediction was made on the evening of Voldemort's attack on Godric Hollow. After all, Trelawney's second prediction was made just hours before it came true, and I cant see a reason why her first would be different. So the prediction was made too late for Dumbledore to intervene - all he could do was send Hagrid to the Potters.

If this idea is right, then chances are that Voldemort was not aware of the prediction when he went after James and Harry, which throws the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy out the window, and means he must have had a different reason for killing them... whatever that reason may be...

The thing that Bugs me is that James died before Lily, trying to protect them both, so why didn't it stop Lily from dying? Why just her with Harry, is it a suggestion that James' love wasn't as strong as Lily's for Harry, or that James wasn't as powerful enough?

I think Trelawney's prediction was that there would be a child born able to withstand the powers of V and he would be the ultimate downfall.

I always just assumed that the prediction was part of the reason Voldermort went after the Potters, but the idea that the prediction was just hours before the murders makes more sense. Now I am all confused again. The prediction has to deal with Voldermort though, right? If book 5 does not answer what the predicition was or why Voldermort was going after the Potters I think I am going to go nuts.

Side note: I think that Harry being an innocent child was part of the reason he survived.

I was re-reading POA last night and got to Trelawney's first class, and noticed she made a prediction right then and there that came true. She asked Neville to select a blue cup after he broke the first teacup he selected. It isn't much, and could maybe be explained away by the fact that Neville is a well-known klutz, or the power of suggestion, but hey, maybe THAT was the first prediction.

Not exactly earthshaking, so it's probably not the one Dumbledore was talking about, but you never know.

Wouldn't that be horrible though if all this big talk was just that Neville broke the cup? But what would Dumbledore know about the cup? Why would he care? Unless it has some greater significance? nah.... I would guess it is like the majority of her predictions. Can be twised into something that is true, misguided, coincidence, or in this case possibly the power of suggestion. I would say he predicytion will be something big that may be aprtially guessed if at all when we finally figure it out for sure...

Originally posted by one2escape (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=181819#post181819))
Maybe this DDs big statement to harry?


Told you so

Post removed.

Aren't we tripping on a very thin line here ppl?

we know her prediction now. :yup: