Is Dumbledore Evil? The "Look of Triumph" whats that about?

If you're discussing Harry Potter, it's the inevitable question. Is Dumbledore secretly on Voldemort's side? What about that look of triumph? Does he secretly want Harry to die?

My answer is a big fat NO. Not only no, but nuh-uh. Dumbledore is standing tall with his feet firmly placed on the side of good. He is the picture of wisdom and nobility. He has been nothing less than a father to Harry, and the idea of him supporting Voldemort is simply ludicrous.

What do you think?

I don't think he's evil, and I'm pretty sure he's not on Voldemort's side, though he wouldn't have to be to be evil. I lean more towards the theory that he will die in OoP. But, you know, it's possible.

Hmm..I think I don't want him to be evil more than I think he is, I'm not sure, this one puzzles me. However even after saying that, my answer is NO I don't think he is evil but I am not going to completely rule it out either.

If Dumbledore is evil, then Voldemort is the kindest person in the world! It is impossible!

No. Definitely not. He's the epitome of powerful goodness and wisdom. Sure, it's possible, but I can't see JK doing such a twist. It would be the ultimate betrayal. Everyone trusts and admires him. Snape, Harry, Sirius, Hagrid-- the good population of the Wizarding World. I know that's not a very good reason, but it'd be too much.

There are many theories regarding this; however my feel is that he's not evil. The 'triumph' thing was probably just his reaction at finding that now Voldy could be killed. I do believe he is hiding something though. What that is, who knows? But he is definetely hiding something.

However, it is possible, however remotely, that Dumbledore is playing his own game. Consider this. He knows he can't defeat Voldy (he has never tried, what more proof do you need?), so he finds a person who can (Harry), trains that person and sets them loose against Voldemort. Harry and Voldemort fight each other and die, and Dumbledore proclaims himself as an 'Emperor.' He then takes control of the wizarding world and rules it without opposition. This theory may sound crazy but check out what Albus means.

*Albus - In Latin means white (maybe for white beard). Wisdom. Or.. Governor of Britain at the death of the emperor Pertinax, Decimus Clodius Albinus (Albinus=Albus?) attempted to seize the throne but ended up as Caesar in alliance with another imperial contender, Septimius Severus. After Severus defeated two other rivals (Voldemort and... Sirius?), the now expendable Albinus was forced into another attempt at usurpation, an attempt that came to an end at the bloody battle of Lyon.*

It could be nothing, then again it could be. Dumbledore may not be evil, but he's not totally innocent either.

I don't think Dumbledore is evil, but I do think there is something going on with him that is a little unusual. More than meets the eye, and all that. I have really been thinking lately that he's got some kind of connection with Harry's family. Don't know what it is, and when the rest of the books come out, I'll know whether I was right or wrong.

I guess I'm just the gullible little girl. I think I'd crack if Dumbledore was evil. I also think that he's hiding something, but I just can't register in my mind that he is like Voldemort. About him wanting total power and wanting to be a dictator, I don't think so. That just doesn't seems right to me. Don't ask me why, but honestly, it's Dumbledore. I do think that Dumbledore can't defeat Voldemort. That's why I think that he is preparing Harry for his bout with Voldemort (i.e. Sorcerer's Stone), but I don't think that Dumbeldore want's Harry to do it so that he can be a dictator.

Dumbledore is definatly special. Not evil, but special. And he sees Harry is too. Maybe even more than he is...

i sometimes think that he might even be his grandfather, but we are probably going to find out about this is book 7

Lews, that is really scary! :eek: JKR follows stories like that all the time, as she did with the basilisk and several other times in the past... but still, Dumbledore evil? It seems impossible to me... i'd really blow the whole thing off if the name Severus hadn't been in there. Knowing JKR, with two names from HP together in some old story, it is rarely coincidence. Still, I find it so hard to see Dumbledore as evil :shrug:

Hmm...I like that, Lews, except for the assumption of truncating Albinus to Albus. They are separate words in Latin, Albus meaning 'white' and Albinus meaning 'without color.' So if there is someone without color whom Snape shares power with...

That's just my take on it, I really don't think Dumbledore is evil - though I would love it if he was.

TheSortingHat

If he is evil, he is definetly one sneaky rotten apple.

So...Dumby are ya? poke: are ya? poke:

He's not. He just can't be. It will be a good twist if he was though...or what would be even BETTER is if it turns out everyone is out to get Harry. Now there is something we would never see coming.

~~sat~~

The possibility of an evil Dumbledor is there.
I personlay dont think that it will ever happend.
Now I have to speek on instinct about J.K. Rowling, not only facts from fiction, So it might get a bit wierd.

In book four we learnt that our loved Madd eye Moody after all was'nt what he gave him out to be. This was a person we loved.
I Think that J.K. Rowling created the kindest person for us, so we would be ven more anoyed when we found out, whats realy behind his mask.
We can easily compare Dumbledore and Moody, they are booth nice people, the care about the other people around them too, they could be like bothers.

Now when one off thees brothers betrays us, it might be hard for us to realy belive in the last one. IKs he good, or is he evil, just as the other one?
We humans have it easy to focus on bad things, and let the good things about a person glide to the side.
Dumbledore is a person containing only good things. So we hope.
But the look of triumph in his face, when he knew Voldemort had gotten Harry's Blood?
I cant think off any other reason for J.K. Rowling to put it this way, that she want our picture off Dumbledore to crackel.

This could be for many reasons.
1. She are planing to make Dumbledore an evil person, and are "preparing" us for the chok that might come around.
2. She want us to dis belive in him, make us loose faith in him, maybe he doing wierd stuff. And maybe get some how in trouble, and we belive in the evilness.
3. Or maybe. Its a good thing for Dumbledore that Voldemort has the blood off Hary, but not a good thing for Harry.

There is probably some other possible solutions for all this. But, this is view I got on the mather, and I highly doubt that Dumbledore is an evil person.

No.

Is Dumbledore evil? No, I don't think so. I think the look of triumph was about something that will end up helping 'the good guys' situation. I think it's possible Dumbledore was using the Philosopher's stone potion to stay alive long enough to fight Voldemort and see his downfall. Kind of like a last 'to do list' before he dies. Now he's aging quickly, and I don't think he'll live throughout the rest of the books. But I do think he's on the 'good' side.

Hold on just a second. Are you saying, Divi, that you believe Dumbledore used the Philosopher's Stone to make the Elixer of Life to prolong his life thus far? If so, could you please elaborate on that? On what do you base this theory?

I can easy cath the theory off Divi.
Dumbledor might have gotten the stone for his own use, but why would he then destroy it if he needed it "that" urgent?
I think that the Philosopher's stone is some think off the past, and that it wont be picked up again with the first. I think, and know (yikees) that Dumbledore is as stright as a roller, got every thing at his dry.

Originally posted by Anne
Hold on just a second. Are you saying, Divi, that you believe Dumbledore used the Philosopher's Stone to make the Elixer of Life to prolong his life thus far? If so, could you please elaborate on that? On what do you base this theory?

I think it's possible. Maybe he was using it in order to stay alive long enough to fight Voldemort. I mean, he was one of the ones who was invloved in finding it, and no one really knows a lot about Flamel. The stone was destroyed so that it couldn't be used for bad intentions, and after that Dumbledore was described as having aged more quickly. There are many references to how much older he seems to be getting over a time span of three years. That's really not that long of a time. I think he just wanted to settle the whole Voldemort situation before he died, and that was his excuse for trying to prolong his life. I don't think he planned on living forever, just trying to add a couple of years. Also, I would find it a bit irrelevant to have the stone in the series unless it had some sort of meaning. I know that the first book was an introduction to everything, but I just think that there is a purpose for why such an emphasis was placed on all things regarding the stone.

Great theory Divi. That sounds like it could definitely happen. I've always though Dumbledore would die in the next book or at least by the end of the series... I never connected the destruction of the stone with the signs of Dumbledore aging.

Thats very interesting and it does seem possible, great theory. :tu:

I absolutly, 100% refuse to believe Dumbledore is evil.

Dumbledore is the personification of the Harry Potter series. He's intelligent, articulate, immensely powerful and often slightly barmy. He even often speaks like he's narrating to the fans.

Believing he's secretly evil is like believing the books are evil, too. Trying to shock us isn't the key - that's **** writing. Clever writing is the kind that just shocks us coincidentally. But would anybody honestly be shocked more than disappointed? Perhaps occasionally there just has to be the white side of the chess board.... Dumbledore is Harry's mentor and the archtype for the right side.

I don't think Dumbledore is evil. If he were, then there would be no all-powerful wizard on the good side. I am ninety-eight point seven percent sure that he's not evil. I think that the look of triumph may have been triumph that Voldemort has hurt himself using Harry to regain his power.

No...Dumbledore cannot be evil. It's just not possible. Well, maybe it is, but I don't think so.

xoxo, Sabrina

I found very interesting the fact that in GoF DD has a twinkle in his eyes when Harry tells him that Voldemort is now able to touch him. Why do you think that was?
Personally I think is because now finally Voldemort has something good inside him, and that will harm him without him know it. Voldemort might think that he is sharing Harry?s protection, but since Harry?s protection is based on love and good, and Voldemort does not understand love specially the kind of love that saved Harry, in the end it will work against him.
What do you think?

Anne posted a topic about this. It's almost on the third page. "Is Dumbledore Evil".


In the enchantment that was used to create Voldemort's new body, he used Harry's blood. Remember what Hagrid said the first time he met Harry? "Don't think there's enough human in him to die..." (or something along those lines). Harry is human, Voldemort isn't. But now that he's got Harry's blood circulating through his veins, he has human inside him. All humans die at some point, and now that Voldemort's got Harry's blood in him, he can die too.
Dumbledore realised this and gave the 'look of triumph'.

I'm pretty sure that the above theory is correct.

I think he has a gleam in his eyes because he believes Voldemort has done something that will hurt him in the long run. Sure, he's alive now, but by book seven...

It was made pretty obvious, even by Voldemort himself, that by undergoing this rebirth he has regained his mortality. However I think there must be something more to Dumbledores "twinkle of triumph". On the pessimistic side, perhaps there is now such a bond between Harry and Voldemort that the fate of one echos in the other. This could mean that to finally destroy Voldemort Harry would have to sacrifice himself. Though I can't imagine why this would please Dumbledore. On the brighter side of things perhaps such a connection would allow Harry to exert some level of control over Voldemort. We shall see.

I totally agree! Voldemort is part human now since he does have part of Harry's blood. That means it is possible to kill him. That would explain why DD was happy...he knows already! ;)

xoxo, Sabrina :witch:

Originally posted by JenBluffheid

In the enchantment that was used to create Voldemort's new body, he used Harry's blood. Remember what Hagrid said the first time he met Harry? "Don't think there's enough human in him to die..." (or something along those lines). Harry is human, Voldemort isn't. But now that he's got Harry's blood circulating through his veins, he has human inside him. All humans die at some point, and now that Voldemort's got Harry's blood in him, he can die too.
Dumbledore realised this and gave the 'look of triumph'.

I have to agree withe JenBluffheid on this.

Of course, along with Voldemort's mortality comes risk: Voldemort now has a human form and can do magic more effectively. He doesn't need to find a willing "host" body/person, and persuade the person to do his bidding (he had trouble with Quirrell on that front). He can hold his wand again. He can kill. This makes Voldemort dangerous again.

But, yes, I too believe that Harry's blood means death for Voldemort in the end, one way or another.

I, too, think that Dumbledore saw Harry's blood as a key in Voldemort's downfall. It's made him vulnerable somehow.

yeah i agree with everyone else. The twinkle in his eyes may be due to the fact that he thinks that one of the obstacles has been brought down and that he is now flesh and blood and that he can be killed more easily. however i think it is more than having Harry's blood; lets dont forget that he has Wormtail's flesh, and Wormtail himself is somehow indebted to harry because he let him go in the end of PoA. so, something will not be right. Voldie has Harry's blood, and the flesh of someone who is indebted to harry

I agree that the twinkle in Dumbledore's eye has to do with Voldemort's newly acquired vulnerability and the suggestion that Wormtail's flesh makes him even more vulnerble is new AND exciting. I hadn't thought of that.

I admit that part of the book bothered me from the very first time I read it. All of you are probably right to some extent but I think it will go much deeper than that...I mean it is JKRowling we're talking about! I just don't know for sure what's up with that yet.

Originally posted by Tinkie
...i think it is more than having Harry's blood; lets dont forget that he has Wormtail's flesh, and Wormtail himself is somehow indebted to harry because he let him go in the end of PoA. so, something will not be right. Voldie has Harry's blood, and the flesh of someone who is indebted to harry
Very good point, Tinkie. Thanks for pointing it out. I hadn't thought of that before.

We all forgot that the triumph look soon faded. Maybe it's the risk (like Evelyn said) but it may be something completely new.

Originally posted by Tinkie
... however i think it is more than having Harry's blood; lets dont forget that he has Wormtail's flesh, and Wormtail himself is somehow indebted to harry because he let him go in the end of PoA. so, something will not be right. Voldie has Harry's blood, and the flesh of someone who is indebted to harry

I could not agree more, your point gives the twinkle in DD eyes, even more meaning,
Voldemort think he is immortal because he is sharing Harrys blood and therefore Harrys protection, but :devil: the joke's on him, he is sharing flesh that is in Harrys debt:rasp:
I love it:devil:

This isn't my theory, but someone elses that I read on the Mugglenet forums long ago.

We know that Harry's protection comes from the love of his mother. Therefore you can assume that since he carries Harry's blood he also carries some of that love that had been protecting Harry. Perhaps it will eat at him like a cancer.

Arg! Everything i was going to say has been said!

Ok, i will just have to agree with you all. :grin:

Originally posted by Dobby and Winky
I think he has a gleam in his eyes because he believes Voldemort has done something that will hurt him in the long run. Sure, he's alive now, but by book seven...

My thoughts exactly.

Originally posted by cristalfairy

Voldemort think he is immortal because he is sharing Harrys blood and therefore Harrys protection, but :devil: the joke's on him, he is sharing flesh that is in Harrys debt:rasp:
I love it:devil:

I doubt that Voldemort is stupid enough to think that he is now immortal, but is he in Harry's debt? I don't think so. Wormtail is in Harry's debt because Harry willingly saved him. Voldemort forced Harry to give blood, so that really isn't the same thing.

In the graveyard scene of GoF, Voldemort said:

"Listen, to me, reliving family history..." he said quietly. "Why I am growing quite sentimental."

I think that Lily's blood that was in Harry made him sentimental and therefore more emotionally vulnerable.

I like the theory about Wormtail's flesh and being in debt to Harry except that it didn't stop him from performing 3 unforgiveable curses on Harry so I don't think it would stop him from killing Harry.

pardon me from intruding in a post,but i say that DD was'nt happy at al,but just preoccupied,but this is just my opinion,so i may be wrong.:smile:

Welcome to the forums FairyCrystal, and no you can't be wrong because its your opinion, we can disagree sometimes, and agree some other times but basically just have fun, and have a good time.:rotfl:

Now that said, yes DD was happy you don't get a twinkle in your eyes when you are worried, and my theory is that he was happy because now, Voldemort is going to be easier to get to.:smile:

look,mom ,just because you KNOW what i'm going to say,will you PLEASE let me find my own way?:banghead:

Originally posted by Tinkie
However i think it is more than having Harry's blood; lets dont forget that he has Wormtail's flesh, and Wormtail himself is somehow indebted to harry because he let him go in the end of PoA. so, something will not be right. Voldie has Harry's blood, and the flesh of someone who is indebted to harry

Oh, yeah! I completely forgot about that. Yes, that must happen. JK will dive deeper into the subject to what we may have forgot.
Good work, Tinkie! :tu:

I think it's one of those things that only DD really understands, and noone else will find out until later on. DD seems to know things about Voldemort and Harry that noone else knows. There's a big secret floating around, and he's the only one with the answer.

I agree with Jedily.

I started to think about that glimmer in old DD's eyes too,
And I started out thinking about the "not enough human in him to die" that Hagrid told Harry in PS. Then I remembered something Dumbledore told Harry at the end of PoA. "You have sent Voldemort a debuty in your debt, I doubt very much voldemort wants a servant who ows his life to Harry Potter. The time med come when you are very glad you saved Wormtails life." (Sorry, not an exact quote since I lent my copy to my father).

In GoF Harry tells DD and Sirius that Voldemort had risen using his blood and Wormtails hand. Harry and Wormtail are linked in the strong bond created when one wizard saves another wizards life.

Voldemort used the two of them to regenerate, and hey presto, his in the bond to.
This would be what Dumbledore realised the moment his eyes glimmered.
He is not evil, his just very smart.

What do you say?
(And please be nice, since this is my first ever post :o )

No I don't think so. But In other posts there are questions of if Harry is someway related to Voldemort......Well is Harry related to DD? Is that why he is so pleased to see Harry defeat Voldemort? Didgaever think of that?

I don't think so. The glimmer in his eyes can be interpreted both ways, but I think it has to do with a way that will help the non Death Eaters. That is the only obivoius clue I see that could lead to DD being evil is the glimmer in his eyes.

He just can't be bad, he just can't! He's too good! :(

I'm not saying that Dumbledore's good or evil but this is Harry Potter so always expect the unexpected. J.K. Rowling is doing it all the time like in these examples:

Quirell trying to get the Stone instead of Snape
Sirius Black turning out to be innocent
Scabbers turning out to be Wormtail
Voldemort being Slytherin's heir (not really unexpected but it was for me)
Mad Eye Moody in GoF was really a Death Eater in disguise

And I bet none of you ever even thought of Darth Vader being Luke Skywalker's father did you ?????

Ok dont yell at me for posting this again. I cant help it whenever I
see a thread on this topic I have to add this to the mix.
In the comedy relief book "magical beasts and where to find them" Under the entry for pheonix it says that a pheonix song will
bring hope to those who are good and strike fear into the hearts of
the evil (it basically says that,I dont have a copy with me) Now I honestly dont think that fawkes would trust Dumbledore if dd were
evil. But I'm not sure.and if Dumbledore were evil every time
he heard his own pet sing it would "strike fear into his heart"
or whatever. :??: So what do you think?

The loom of triumph could go both ways..him being evil or him being good...
evil: He has the look because voldy almost killed harry
good:now that voldy has a body and is sumwhat mortla they can kill him!
Problem solved!!!!!!!!!
:clappy: :clappy: :clappy: :clappy: :clappy: :clappy:

Originally posted by sierra_sand
Under the entry for pheonix it says that a pheonix song will
bring hope to those who are good and strike fear into the hearts of
the evil (it basically says that,I dont have a copy with me) Now I honestly dont think that fawkes would trust Dumbledore if dd were
evil. But I'm not sure.and if Dumbledore were evil every time
he heard his own pet sing it would "strike fear into his heart"
or whatever. :??: So what do you think?

Hm...Yes, i do believe that if Dumbledore was evil, he would not be able to be around Fawkes.
As Fawkes has chosen Dumbledore, this must be of some significance. If he was evil, wouldnt Fawkes chose to find someone else, or perhaps leave to live on his own, or where ever phoenixes live?

Originally posted by harryton
i sometimes think that he might even be his grandfather, but we are probably going to find out about this is book 7

I've definitely thought that too. There really seems to be some sort of connection there......I mean, he had James Potters invisibility cloak writing that it was entrusted to him just before he (James) died, and it said in book #3 that he had volunteered to be the Potters' secret keeper, and geez, what else am I forgetting....

*bump*

has n e 1 ever noticed that the merlin 1st class award is such a high honor yet the least worthy get it? now i don't like this theory but dd evil?
t.riddle: got it b/c he turned in hagrid.
peter: got it b/c he "died" trying to beat sirius who was considered evil at the time
snape: almost got it for "capturing" a "dangerous criminal" but the "dangerous criminal" got away
dd: didn't it say that (in the 1st book w/ the chocolate frog) he got one? w/ this trend & in the 4th book w/ the twinkle in the eye when harry mentioned that voldy could touch him, could it, would it, mean that dd is in fact evil? not that alone but his name, how many times he shows up & saves harry in the nick of time.

i was just gonna make a thread about that~!!

I will also say a big fat NO because that would be a twist too far, and someone must be unquestionably good to match Voldemort's unquestionable evil. Dumbles certainly has his own agenda that we don't know all about though.

The order of Merlin meaning Dumbie is evil is stretching things just a little too far I think.
That would make Merlin evil too anyway.

Maybe there is a bizarro world edition of HP that I don't know about that reverses who is evil and who is not. That is the only explanation that I can come up with for the Dumbledore is evil and the Lucius is good threads.

Tom Riddle did not get a Merlin award, just a special award from the school. DD cannot be evil. I used to think that too but it just cannot be. He was in fury when he realised that BCJ is still alive, he helped Harry tons of times. If DD is really evil, it will be the greatest twist in the entire series. DD is the best wizard of the lot (even better than Voldemort), if he was really evil, he would be overtaking the world, he even gave up his position for Minister of Magic, he just cannot be.

in the first book, harry asked if Albus was a little crazy.....

maybe that look was just his crazy side..

he COULDN'T be evil........ right?

ok ppl. don't jump down my throat. i said i didn't like the theory. & but u ppl. need proof that he's not evil.

Is Dumbledore working for Voldemort?

I think he is. In book 1, although he describes why Quirrell couldn't touch Harry, he never touches him either. Not in book 1 or in any of the sequels.

It is also revealed that Dumbledore also wanted to be the Potter's secret keeper. Why? Because he knew Sirius wasn't Voldemort's spy.

Although Voldemort is afraid of Dumbledore, Dumbledore never launches an attack him.

In the end of book 4, Voldemort reveals that he knows some of the defenses Dumbledore has set up for Harry.

Finally, there is always a dark twist at the end of each book. Maybe this will be the final twist.

one word. No

Two words. Not a chance.

(Hang on a minute..)

No, I don't think he is evil. We can never prove this until the end of the series, but I think this would be a bit to big of a twist in the story. Sure, there are things to suggest it, but I think that it would just reverse the whole story to much. JK may have put the twinkle thing in simply so we would get all worried... there are other ways to explain it.

Yeah, i dont really think he could be... it doesn't really seem like him, and it would be too much of a plot twist. Anyway, you never know!
Well, all our questions will be answered soon, we'll just hav 2 wait!

I think it would be an interesting plot twist to have him turn out to be on Voldie's side... but personally, I would probably start bawling if this is the case.

Then there's the phoenix evidence, which I think is pretty strong unless Fawkes is a rogue phoenix. (Highly unlikely, to my thinking). So, hopefully, he's not evil, never has been evil, and never well be evil.

I would probably start bawling if [Dumbledore turned out to be on Voldie's side].
I agree. I really don't want him to be evil, but then, I don't think it is likely, either.

Dumbledoe is NOT evil. That even sounds crazy! he never was, is not now, and never will be. I mean be serious. No one has any hard evidence to support this. And about the lookn of triumph.....I go with the theory that it was because of Voldemort's "mistake." DUMBLEDORE IS GOOD, NOT BY ANY MEANS EVIL!

He could be evil, if he is evil that does not necessarily means he's on Voldemort's side.

Hi guys. Here is my take on the "look of triumph." Dumbeldore only gets the look on his face after Harry confirms that Voldemort used his blood. Why? My take on it has something to do with Harry's blood. Well he was bitten by the spider in the maze right before he reached the portkey. I distinctly remember a passage where it is mentioned that Harry is cleaning the greyish goo left on his knee wound from the spider's bite. I think that stuff was some kind of venom. The fact that Harry get dizzier and dizzier after being bitten by the spider supports that theory. If the spider was poisonous then that means that the blood Voldemort extracted from Harry was contaminated. This may mean that the blood in Voldemort is also contaminated and Dumbeldore realizing this gets the look of triumph on his face since he knows that Voldemort's physical body will be weak due to the poison. One more point that may support this theory. It is only after Dumbeldore gets Harry's confirmetion that Voldemort has Harry's blood that Fawkes heals Harry's knee - thus letting Dumbeldore see the infected wound and get his look of triumph. But then again, I may be wrong and Dumbeldore may just turn out to be the master mind behind Voldemort's rise - even though there is no logical reason for this.

Good theory, Oden! Quite possible. I definately think that there is something with the blood that Dumbledore instantly saw that made him see some advantage against Voldemort.

It seems that every time I post about this, the boards either shutdown or I lose my posts - let's hope it doesn't happen this time

I think Dumbledore is on the good side.

First - Rowling has said in interview that Dumbledore is the eptiome of good. Why would she say this and turn around and pull the rug out from other us?

Good point about the Phoenix bringing hope to the good - Fawkes wouldn't be with Dumledore if there were something fishy.

But here's the part that seals the deal for me.
The look of triumph. Why? Well - we don't know why, probably something in Harry's blood, or perhaps it's just because V is mortal and can actually be killed. But here's a throw away line that people don't pick up on in GoF....

After Harry comes back from the graveyard and is taken to Moody's office, Crouch/Moody begins interrogating him. When Crouch/Moody hears that V took Harry's blood he lets out a long slow hiss (I don't remember the correct verbiage, and I don't have my book with me).

Seems to me that Crouch/Moody also knows something about Harry's blood that Dumbledore knows, that V apparently doesn't know. Dumbledore, who is against V, gets a look of triumph, while Crouch, who is with V, lets out a hiss.

Something to ponder at least.

Good point, Katze! I think when we look at it, there is no reason that this "look of triumph" has to mean that Dumbledore is evil--there are many ways to explain it that lead to the exact opposite result.

The name of this thread caught my eye...Dumbledore and evil in the same sentence???? I would never think such a think of him! Sure that would be one heck of a twist, but realy....why work so hard to create such a kind and fatherly figure for Harry when, in the end he turns against him? Wouldn't that seem a bit abrupt?

the look of triumph isnt a look of evil...

it means that Dumbledore discovered something that he can use against Voldemort....

a blood transfer.... magically... means that Voldemort also now has Harry's weaknesses....and also, this means that Voldemort now has a blood-debt to Harry... which might mean that he, now more than ever, won't be able to kill Harry....

Well, that's only a magical theory.... pertaining to a blood debt... but I don't really believe that Dumbledore is evil... it's flatly impossible...

Someone said that there was no proof that Dumbledore isn't evil? No, only 4 books worth, and one tiny instance that can go either way. But I think that's because Dumbledore recognizes that Voldemort has erred.

There's no way that Dumbledore is evil. If that were the case, then he would have killed Harry himself a long time ago. Instead he goes out of his way to protect him. His mannerisms are those of kindness and understanding and this is all the time. No one is that good of an actor. Essentially, saying that DD is evil, is saying that Voldemort is good. It wouldn't make a good plot twist either. In my opinion, it would ruin the books since they could rightfully be called a sham if the noblest character turned out to be the biggest betrayer. I know I would feel betrayed.

Yes, it seems that if Dumbledore really is evil, he's been hiding it extremely well for a very long time. Possible, but extremely doubtful. We know that he was against Voldemort in the past (since Voldemort feared him) so why would he then be happy to hear that Voldemort has returned?

Those who are saying Dumbledore is evil are *really* asking for Hagrid to get them.

I don't think the look of triumph meant that *at all*. Why ignore four books over *one* word?

Er, one phrase ;)

But yeah, you have a point. It would destroy the whole platform of the books, just because of one little phrase that can be interpreted many ways. Mind, it might be forshadowing that he's evil, but I doubt it.

It could have been a look of hunger. :) One word.

I wonder what JK makes of the fans who say that Dumbledore is evil because of this? Is she laughing and going "haha you'll see" or "They are right!"

Who knows.... we'll just have to wait... but I still doubt it....

Dumbledore isnt evil.. yet, but i think maybe that glint of triumph was because harrys blood was human blood, and when voldie didnt have harrys blood, he was sort of not human. so now hes human enough to die.

nice theory..... but we already know that voldemort is currently living a "half-life", since he's been drinking unicorn blood... so, currently, he's a lot easier to kill....

Dumbledore just can't be evil... there's just no way....

Originally posted by Fuchsia
I wonder what JK makes of the fans who say that Dumbledore is evil because of this? Is she laughing and going "haha you'll see" or "They are right!"
She probably thinks we're crazy, but then, she may have put that in just to through us off track, in which case she's most likely happy to see people falling for her trick... :elaugh:

I did a search through Rowling's interview and came up with these two mentions of the Look of Triumph.

From this (http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_Barnes_Noble.htm)interivew
Question: I was wondering about Dumbledore's facial expression in Goblet when he found out that Voldemort had touched Harry. The narrative says that Dumbledore reacted with a look of triumph. Aside from the problem of interpreting triumph on someone's face, I was wondering if that is an attempt to throw question on Dumbledore's character, or is he triumphant, perhaps, that Harry can be touched by Lord Voldemort without being destroyed (or something like that)?
Rowling: I frequently look triumphant, I'll have you know. Well, I'm sure you won't be surprised that I'm not going to explain why Dumbledore looked that way. Well-spotted though.

From this (http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_America_Online.htm) interview:
Question: There so many people with "Harry Potter" screen names! One asks: Why did Dumbledore have a look of triumph in his eyes at the end of book four?
Rowling: Good question... excellent question, in fact, and like all the best questions I get asked, I can't answer it! Because it would give too much away. However, well-spotted. Have fun guessing... someone's bound to get it right!

I still say that it was something good, because of Crouch's reaction to V taking Harry's blood.

This makes it look like it is very important, but he isn't neccessarily evil. However, there is a very difinite reason Rowling put this in and I'm sure it will be important. However, I still hold that he's not evil.

no way in the world is dumbledor evil hes has a pure heart!!!!

Besides, there are just some literary characters that cannot transition well into the "other side".... Dumbledore falls into the classic good category... he just can't be bad.....

but still.... why the look of triumph???

:scared: This is a spooky thought... Hopefully not!

The 'look of triumph' in Dumbledore's eyes is because Lord Voldemort is now human/wizard. Therefore he has enough human in him to die proplerly and thoroughly, and not live out of he back of someone's head.

*bump*

I think cat put it best. Making Dumbledore evil would be a cheap plot twist for shock value ONLY, and that has not been JK's style. Whenever she's shocked us in the past, it has made sense plot-wise also (which "evil Dumbledore" would not), and it really hasn't betrayed any of the facts we know. Even the "great Dark wizard catcher" Moody turning out to be evil worked, because it wasn't the real Moody.

Originally posted by sierra_sand
Ok dont yell at me for posting this again. I cant help it whenever I
see a thread on this topic I have to add this to the mix.
In the comedy relief book "magical beasts and where to find them" Under the entry for pheonix it says that a pheonix song will
bring hope to those who are good and strike fear into the hearts of
the evil (it basically says that,I dont have a copy with me) Now I honestly dont think that fawkes would trust Dumbledore if dd were
evil. But I'm not sure.and if Dumbledore were evil every time
he heard his own pet sing it would "strike fear into his heart"
or whatever. :??: So what do you think?


I agree totally! im sry but i think this is the most riducalus thread! like im serious but Dumbledore is NOT evil!Or else y wud he wanna help the gud side and doin all these things to save the wizarding world!and also y wud he go through so much trouble to save Harry!

Dumbledore turning out to be evil, would be good only for shock value. I highly doubt he is evil. I'm not sure what the look of triumph is for... we'll find out later. But Dumbledore is most certainly not evil.

Besides he provides some balance. Dumbledore = good, Voldemort = bad... both amazingly powerful in their own right. Then they both have a sort of kid prodigy. Harry for DD, Draco for Voldie (Okay that was a bit of a stretch...) But you get my point. There is a balance. For Dumbldore to go evil... the balance would be lost, and Harry really wouldn't have any hope or a chance.

ure rite Ame if he did go evil it wud ruin the balance of the story...tats a really gud point!:clappy:

I know, I know. It's absurd to even think that the two could be allied or anything else to that nature. But there is something on page 696 of the American version of book four that lead me to this assumption. "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes." This came directly after harry explaining to Dumbledore that Voldemort used his (harry's) blood so that Voldemort could touch Harry. Why use the word triumph? Also, why was is so pressing to have harry tell Dumbledore right then and there with no rest? Of course he would need to know to alert others to begin putting an end to voldemort, but the sudden need to know all details approach seems a little similar with Crouch Jr.'s interrogation. The reason Crouch wanted to know all the details was because he wanted to know how the dark lord had came back. Could Dumbledore possibly have wanted to know the same? We know he is smart enough to cover during the interrogation and seem innocent throughout. And who other than one of the most powerful wizards of the time would Voldemort want on his side? Look I'm as skeptical of this idea as any of you who read it but I believe that Rowling knowingly placed the triumph sentence in to show something. I welcome anyone who has ideas supporting this idea or anyone who has an idea as to why she put in the triumph sentence.

Originally posted by ben
Why use the word triumph?

For reasons we cannot yet determine, perhaps? Not everything is as black and white as the type and page :D

I don't think Dumbledore has any reason to be working with Voldemort. He is much too powerful to hide himself - who should he be concealing it from? He can zap the Aurors away, I'm sure of it. He could also easily take over the school without any pretense and adapt the students to the Dark Arts. Nobody could stop him.

Dunno, maybe DD thinks that now that Voldie has a body he can be destroyed for good.

In the first book when hagrid tells harry about voldemort for the fistr time he says this
"Some say he died.Codswallop,in my opinion. Dunno if he had enough human left to die"
Another thing when vlodemort meets harry in front of the mirror of erised he says that he has become a mere parasite living of others.Now when Quirrel died vlodemort left his body .You cannot kill something that dosent have a body.So i think that as voldemort has got a body now it may be possible to kill him.that explains the look of triuph

Exactly my thoughts nehaljetha.;)

This topic has already been discussed. Click here (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47) to view an existing thread containing the ideas and thoughts of other forum members.

If you're unsure whether a topic has been posted before, a search function has been provided at the top left-hand side of your screen.

:welcome: to the boards, ben.

My fault, I'll use the search rather than skimming later on. Thanks for the info!

Thanks, rotsiepots! I'll merge the two threads. :)

Anyway... those are just opinions... who knows what JKR herself will try to do with the series... lets just wait and see... and may be speculate a little....

Ok, I found this very interesting about the twinkle. This comes from an interview with JKR frm Schoolastic.

In the fourth book, when Harry tells Dumbledore about his fight with Voldemort and how Voldemort could touch him after he took Harry's blood, Harry thinks he sees Dumbledore smile slightly. Why? Is Dumbledore really on Voldemort's side after all?

"Hmmmm....like all the best questions I get asked, I can't answer that one. But you are obviously reading carefully. I promise you'll find out!"

So, maybe the one faithful servant isn't Crouch, but Dumbledore.

I hope not :(

Maybe she can't say because she is going to explain in the next book...

There's another thread on this. I'll merge them.

who knows but JKR.

I bet she'll put a twist like that in there, because she always does.

Originally posted by Katze
...
But here's the part that seals the deal for me.
The look of triumph. Why? Well - we don't know why, probably something in Harry's blood, or perhaps it's just because V is mortal and can actually be killed. But here's a throw away line that people don't pick up on in GoF....

After Harry comes back from the graveyard and is taken to Moody's office, Crouch/Moody begins interrogating him. When Crouch/Moody hears that V took Harry's blood he lets out a long slow hiss (I don't remember the correct verbiage, and I don't have my book with me).

Seems to me that Crouch/Moody also knows something about Harry's blood that Dumbledore knows, that V apparently doesn't know. Dumbledore, who is against V, gets a look of triumph, while Crouch, who is with V, lets out a hiss.

Something to ponder at least.
Katze, I thought you had a nifty point, until my sister pointed out a counter example.

If Crouch Jr. had known that Harry's blood would contaminate Voldemort's undead invincibility, why did he bring him Harry in the first place? Surely, Voldemort's "most faithful servant" does not want to weaken his master. And also, if Crouch Jr. knew about the ill effects of Harry's blood, I find it hard to believe that Voldemort himself won't know about it. This potentially important bit of gossip would likely come up during their conversations.

And as for his hiss upon hearing that Harry had given blood to Voldemort, I don't know..maybe Crouch Jr. just likes hissing randomly.

Not that I think Dumbledore is naughty; in fact, I have an argument for Dumbledore's sugary-goodliness:

Dumbledore appeared in Crouch Jr.'s Foe-Glass, along with Snape and McGonagall.

So unless Snape and McGonagall are also evil, but not allied with Voldemort, and, for some reason, have something against Crouch Jr., then our beloved Dumbledore cannot be evil.

Dumbledore's too funny to be evil anyway. =P All the evil people are either too busy plotting and drinking Polyjuice Potions to make jokes or, when they do, make these horrible puns and stupid impressions that only their fellow cronies find funny.

Originally posted by With Rye

Dumbledore's too funny to be evil anyway. =P All the evil people are either too busy plotting and drinking Polyjuice Potions to make jokes or, when they do, make these horrible puns and stupid impressions that only their fellow cronies find funny.

Yeah, i agree with this. Dumbledore is too happy and jovial to be evil.

I strongly think that he is good Wizard. He might dies in Book 6, so Book 7 Harry has to be a grown up as an adult, making his own decision and guiding himself through 7th year.

Originally posted by With Rye
If Crouch Jr. had known that Harry's blood would contaminate Voldemort's undead invincibility, why did he bring him Harry in the first place? Surely, Voldemort's "most faithful servant" does not want to weaken his master. And also, if Crouch Jr. knew about the ill effects of Harry's blood, I find it hard to believe that Voldemort himself won't know about it. This potentially important bit of gossip would likely come up during their conversations.

And as for his hiss upon hearing that Harry had given blood to Voldemort, I don't know..maybe Crouch Jr. just likes hissing randomly.


I believe that the only people who knew in advance what V was planning to do with Harry was V and Pettigrew. I don't think any of the DE's knew precisely what was going to happen at the graveyard until it happened.

I'm not sure Crouch knew that V was going to use Harry's blood. Crouch's task was to get Harry to the graveyard. But like all bad guys (even in real life) they never let their cronies know the entire plan.

So my theory is that Crouch's mission was to get Harry to the graveyard so V could kill him and that's all he knew.

I think the triumph in D's eye, and Crouch's hiss are connected and have something to do with the ultimate outcome.

Dumbledore maybe evil and he maybe the good wizard he is made out to be.

The look of triumph has been argued to death. Would a Dumbledore is good supporter please address these other points I posted earlier.



In book 1, although he describes why Quirrell couldn't touch Harry, he never touches him either. Not in book 1 or in any of the sequels.

It is also revealed that Dumbledore also wanted to be the Potter's secret keeper. Why? Because he knew Sirius wasn't Voldemort's spy.

Although Voldemort is afraid of Dumbledore, Dumbledore never launches an attack him.

In the end of book 4, Voldemort reveals that he knows some of the defenses Dumbledore has set up for Harry.

Finally, there is always a dark twist at the end of each book. Maybe this will be the final twist.

If Dumbledore did turn out to be evil, I'm sure it wouldn't be that simple. JK always does complex things, and I'm sure this would be no different. However, I still don't think he's evil.

Would someone please tell why Dumbledore never touches Harry? Why he wanted so badly to be the Potter's secret keeper? Why he never attacked Voldemort? Or how Voldemort learned of the defenses Dumbledore set up?


I am not saying that Dumbledore is evil. I merely pointing out his character is rather ambigious and that he may turn out to be working with Voldemort or perhaps has his own evil intentions.

Originally posted by Justin
The 'look of triumph' in Dumbledore's eyes is because Lord Voldemort is now human/wizard. Therefore he has enough human in him to die proplerly and thoroughly, and not live out of he back of someone's head.


Thats what I think. Plus, someone had mentioned something about Fawkes..and I agree totally.


For all of the "actions" Dumbledore made to suggest he was "evil", these two facts make up for all of those instances that we are not even sure of~
1: who was the one person voldermort feared the most??? Dumbledore of coure!

2:And for whoever said something about hinm wanting to be a secret keeper, 1st...he wanted to do it to PROTECT them, and second off, he didnt put up a fight about it, did he? I mean after-all the guy was the only one who Vold. really feared.

There are so many dfferent reasons Dumbledore isnt evil..like in the GoF, he was the one who gave the instructions on what to do to help the wizard world, JKR makes it clear, that he is not evil...no offense but theis thread is a little silly.

That's all;D

I know Im not supposed to duble-post, but no one is relpying!! I'm sorry if it ends up that I did, but I dont think it should turn out that way, someone is bound to post a reply before me...any how,

About the whole not touching harry..he does!!! I think its in the first book, but it may be the fourth, im not sure, but when Harry is in the hospital wing... Dumbledore gives Harry a pat on the head!! I kno this for sure, I just have to so some researching to find out which page in which book. So there you all have it. He did touch Harry. I think its in the first book, near the end. And im not trying to sound like a smart mouth or anyhting. Seriously...

Originally posted by Bilbo
Would someone please tell why Dumbledore never touches Harry?

Actually he does. In GoF, page 672, American Hardback:

"Dumbledore bent down, and with extraordinary strength for a man so old and thin, raised Harry from the ground and set him on his feet."

I'm sure there are others. GoF happens to be the book I have in my hand right now.

Why he wanted so badly to be the Potter's secret keeper?

He loved the Potters and they love him. James left certain posessions in D's care (the cloak, vault key). Dumbledore wanted to be their secret keeper to keep them safe because V wouldn't come after him. D is the only person V is afraid of.

The potters wouldn't agree and ultimately ended up using Pettigrew.

Why he never attacked Voldemort?

I don't think he's had the chance. I also think that D is a pacifist at heart, and will wait until V makes his appearance to D - face to face before D does anything proactive.

Or how Voldemort learned of the defenses Dumbledore set up?

I'm sure a lot of people, like McGongall, and others were aware of the 'security' to keep Harry safe. Also remember the Crouch desguised at Moody was around for an entire year at Hogwarts. No doubt Dumbeldore had discussion with his supports about the threat of V. D not knowing that it was really Crouch, probably trusted Moody with information.

I am not saying that Dumbledore is evil. I merely pointing out his character is rather ambigious and that he may turn out to be working with Voldemort or perhaps has his own evil intentions.

Dumbledore is not evil.

McGonagall stated that D is just as powerful as Volemort but is too noble to use it.

Rowling has also stated numerous times that Dumbeldore is the epitome of good. I cannot fathom why she would say this and make him out to be evil.

Fawkes - a phoenix - bring light to those who are good. Why one earth would Fawkes choose to stay with Dumbeldore if he were evil?

Here's some information from the Lexicon about Dumbledore. (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/dumbledore.html)

Dumbledore is the one wizard whom Voldemort fears. His presence at Hogwarts made the school a safe haven during the 1970s; Voldemort never tried to take the school. Dumbledore worked tirelessly to defeat Voldemort during those terrible years and now that Voldemort has risen again, Dumbledore is calling together his supporters to fight the Dark Lord.

Famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945

The only piece of information that cast doubt on his character at the glimmer in his eye when V took Harry's blood. There isn't one person who actually thought that D was evil until that specific line was read in GoF.

I'm sure there are going to be people in the book who look good but turn out bad, but Rowling won't do this to Dumbledore. He's the light of the story. His light will be snuffed out by the darkness, and it will be up to those left behind to find a new light.

Let's assume Voldemort is afraid of Dumbledore. Why doesn't he attack Voldemort? And maybe, just maybe he wanted to be the Potter's secret keeper because he knew Sirius would never tell Voldemort the secret.

Why would Dumbledore work tirelessly to defeat Voldemort if he were on V's side?

He wanted to be the Secret Keeper because Voldemort would never come after him for their location.

btw - I found an instance where D touches Harry and have revised my previous posted to include the quote.

Dumbledore cannot be evil because she has portrayed him as a loving force of good. Making him evil would make absolutely no sense.

Thank you Katze for addressing my doubts.

Yea, i can see no possible reason D is evil. He cant be. I know twists are good in a story, but this, this twist it far too dramiatic. No way, no how. hehehe!!

Edited to Add:Found another Dumbledore//Harry touch:
p.596 US Harcover addition GoF, as Harry is staring in the Pensieve:
"Come," said the Dumbledore on his left [Note:As in, the real Dum. and not the Pensieve Dum.], and he put his hand under Harry's elbow.


As for the look of "triumph", I puzzled over that for quite some time, till someone pointed it out on a board and I did a big ooooo....

Hagrid supposes in the first book that Moldy Voldy doesn't have enough human in him left to die. Now that Harry's blood is in Voldy, as Harry is mortal, supposedly so is Voldy. It would be hard, but now it's possible to get rid of him once and for all. So maybe Dumbledore is triumphant at a possible course of action to take.

That´s totally correct. Moreover, what if Harry´s blood not only made him mortal but gave him a conscious to boot? What if he can´t kill Harry because he would kill a part of himself? I don´t think everyone is he pretends to be, so chance is Voldemort´s agenda isn´t only to kill everyone and bend them under his will.

It´s simple.
If DD is evil, the whole story makes no sense and besides this I would be cheatet of one of my favorite characters.

He´s not evil but clearly he knows more than he says. He´s wiser than everybody else, he can see invisible people, he knew Tom Ribble was the one to blame Hagrid, he´s older than most other characters, he´s the one who helps Harry if he doesn´t know how to go on. He is NOT bad or corrupt, but he does more about what happends than what meets the eye.

No DD is not evil... yet its not time to share with Harry the things he knows. Could be too much for Harry to understand. Just as why he trusts Snape so much could be hard for Harry to understand at the mental maturity he is at this point.

As Harry gets more mature I am sure DD will share more with him. I still think DD allows everything Harry gets into and knows that other students don't to get Harry to become wiser and stronger. The Pensive... DD knew what he was doing. :)

I have one last question...why is it easier to accept the fact that Harry may wake from a dream in Book 7 than it is too accept, even on the remotest possibility that DD is an ambigious (dare I say, evil) character..?

I think it's easier to accept because we've all read extremely bad fiction, with an ending equivalent to that of "He woke up and like POOF! It was all a bad dream!" or "And in the end, they all got hit by a truck." But as for Dumbledore to be evil, it first contradicts most things we've read in the book and doesn't make much sense. When JKR writes foreshadowing, she doesn't hide it, she writes it so that you look back in hindsight and go "Ooooh!". If we were to suppose that DD is evil, it's still hard to believe. I would say that it's unbelievable to make DD an evil character, but then again JKR often surprises us. I'm just not sure I'm ready to believe it. For another thing, she'd probably lose a whole lot of readers, because they might feel tricked or betrayed or I-don't-know-what. For another thing, the publishers wouldn't let her get away with it. :-)

As posted by me in "Who Will Die" thread:
Ya know, I went back and reread the graveyard scene, and I had previously missed an extremely important passage in the book: (GoF, The Death Eaters, p.636 American Hardback:
[quote]"There was no hope of stealing the Sorcerer's Stone anymore, for I knew that Dumbledore would have seen to it that it was destroyed. But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my sights lower...I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength."

There lyeth the mystery of the "triumph" in DD's eyes.

So it would be easier to accept the fact that all 7 books were a waste of time rather than a Merlinesque character is evil?

If DD ends up evil, then there's no light in the story. With something as dark as V, you have to have something light. Harry is not the light. He might be the hero, but he is not the light.

DD isn't the only light. Arthur, Lupin, Black, McGonagall, Snape and the "Old Crowd" could also be considered the light.

I think it is equally hard to imagine that J. K. Rowling will destroy what she so tirelessly erected in seven books with some cheap gimmick at the end that either reveals Dumbledore is evil or that the entire story is a dream.

Both scenarios, to me, are too far-fetched to warrant any serious consideration. But, of course, it's always fun to think about them.

Originally posted by Bilbo
DD isn't the only light. Arthur, Lupin, Black, McGonagall, Snape and the "Old Crowd" could also be considered the light.
None of these have the type of authority, leadership skills, and respect that D does. This is why he's the light. Who would take D's place if he were to die - which person would be respected and followed like D?

I think all that followed D would gladly unite together should he die or turn out evil.

I do not think D will turn out evil or something. If he does, then who is on the other side against Voldemort? I mean, D is sort of the leader of the side against Voldemort. If he is evil or something...then...Harry and his side will have a hard time, I guess.

Originally posted by Bilbo
I think all that followed D would gladly unite together should he die or turn out evil.

I wasn't questioning whether anyone would be willing to unite together if he dies. They're already united.

What I'm asking who would be the best person for the job to take his place and the #1 person who leads the group?

I believe McGonagall has strength to lead. So to does Lupin, Black and Snape. We are also going to be introduced to "the old crowd" and anyone of those may have the ability to lead.

Originally posted by Bilbo
I believe McGonagall has strength to lead. So to does Lupin, Black and Snape. We are also going to be introduced to "the old crowd" and anyone of those may have the ability to lead.

I disagree that they have the ability. I don't doubt that have ability, but the ability to lead like D?

Lupin - being a werewolf causes fear and cannot move throughout society like D can.

Snape - he must keep his cover so can't take on the job of being the leader of the light (he could if he were a double spy, but that's just *too* much)

Sirius - he's still a criminal and cannot move throughout society.

McGonagall might be ok, but I think she'd submit too soon to pressure from the Ministry, unlike D.

You are right that we have a new group of people to meet, and perhaps one would fit the bill, but I think it makes the story more interesting if D is the 'light' and is killed, than to make D evil.

Originally posted by Katze
McGonagall might be ok, but I think she'd submit too soon to pressure from the Ministry, unlike D.

I think McGonagall is more than aware of the corruption and incompetencies within the Ministry. Certain events in PoA and especially those in GoF involving Barty Crouch Jr and the Dementors, have probably forced McGonagall to reevaluate her stance and opinion towards those in power at the Ministry, most noteably Fudge.

I doubt she would submit to Ministry pressure. She's far too determined and steely for that.

Originally posted by Katze

McGonagall might be ok, but I think she'd submit too soon to pressure from the Ministry, unlike D.



McGonagall submitt to Ministry pressure? If by the end of PoA she isn't distrustful of Fudge, by the end of GoF she is. She sees him as a selfish and incompetent leader. I think, she herself would force her own pressure.

Hermione may be "a suffering know it all" but she knows when to break the rules and so to does her 'mentor' McGonagall."

However, I have changed my stance. Apparently, Albus also refers to "purity." I now seriously doubt he could be evil.

I would also like to thank all those, who addressed my doubts.

it sounds mad, but i think that dumbledore is evil.
why was voldy always afraid of one wizard: dumbledore?...because he was his master?!? yes, i think that dumbledore is voldy's master!
why did dumbledore let harry enter the triwizard tournament?...so that he could reach voldy? why did dumbledore have a look of triumph? not because voldy was human enough, he has the same protection as harry and so no one can kill him, because voldy could now touch harry and he had a body.
why did dumbledore want the dementors out of azkaban?... so that the prizoners could escape?!?
but then again i might be wrong and then again i might be right!

Ponshi,

I once had the same doubts, I am now ashamed to say.

Why is Voldemort afraid of Dumbledore? We don't know yet.

However, Dumbledore has a phoenix for a pet. Their song strikes fear into the hearts of evil people.

Albus means "purity" or "light."

Dumbledore had the look of triumph because Voldemort now has a body and can be killed.

Dumbledore wants the Demetors out because he believes Voldemort could turn them to his side. Then we would have Azkaban guarded by Voldemort's supporters.

ok i just read book two over again, and when riddle is in school, dumbledore is the transfiguration teacher, so maybe he's a secret animagus. isn't mcgonnigal an animagus? so wouldn't you think that all transfiguration teachers were animagus to have a better understanding of their class? maybe dumbledore is a pheonix in his animagus form? i don't really have any other facts to back this up but maybe someone out here does? can any of you help me further this theory?

ok someone has also suggested that snape was a sphinx, right? well maybe dumbledore is a sphinx or something, how he always knows the truth about people, and that's why he always gives them second chances, right? so in book two when fudge takes hagrid away, he looks right at harry and ron under the invisibility cloak, maybe he has some other kind of special talent powers junk that we don't know about? there's certainly somthing fishy about dumbledore, but a really good kind of fishy. theres something that we don't know about him, and if we did know what it was, i'm sure it could link all of the strange activity and junk that he does. i dunno maybe i'm delusional...[COLOR=crimson][FONT=arial]
i think i am losing my mind!

I have to agree with LewsTherin, that the look of "triumph" has to do with the fact that Voldemort is now mortal. But I sense something deeper, over the fact that Voldemort can now touch Harry. Maybe it means that only Harry can kill him? The blood must have linked them somehow.

but, even if he did have harry's blood, which meant he could have the protection of lily, it gives him an advantage, because, wasn't lily's sacrifice supposed to have protected harry from the death curse? if voldemort now has that then, he cannot be defeated. on the other hand i think, maybe that protection was only against voldemort's death curse.

From reading all the replies in this discussion, I realise that most HP-fans disagree with me on this.... Freedom of speech, right? Anyway: I support the theory that now Voldemort has human blood in him, he is more vulnerable than ever. But I hope that Harry doesn't have to sacrifice himself in order to destroy Voldemort. I think Dumbledore and Voldemort may be related. Voldemort fears Dumbledore; maybe he fears Dumbledore because Albus is his father? V. therefor has immense respect for his father, but they have had a fight and there has been lots of bitterness between them ever since. The "glint of triumph" in Dumbledore's eyes might be paternal pride... (although, I don't think I'd be proud if I had an evil son...)
This is what I think, and I'm sure heaps of you will disagree with me. but hey! it's only 113 days till book 5 comes out, and I'm sure JKR has loads of surprises for us!

Yeah, Dumbledore only wants to get Vodie out of the way so he can rule the world. He'll be dead within a short time of taking over the entire wrld, and he has all those exceptional freedoms. Dumbledore has power through respect and ecognition.

Could Dumbledore have created the being that is Voldemort?
Could his personality have split into good/evil. the evil side infecting Tom Riddle This could be the reason Voldemort fears Dumbledore and also why Voldemort has the quest to become immortal.
Dumbledore gives second chances, Voldemort punishes those who fail first time.
Dumbledore loves muggles, Voldemort hates them.
Dumbledore knows dark magic but is "too noble to use it", Voldemort uses dark magic/power to get his way.

anyone think this is possible

Don't get me wrong, I think your theory makes sense. However, I highly doubt it. It just doesn't seem JKR's stlye.

I do applaud your creativity, though.

:o

working on the idea that Dumbledore defeated the last dark wizard and about the same time Voldemort evolved!

A bit off topic, but I always thought Voldemort was a sort of apprentice to Grindalwald (dark wizard defeated by Dumbledore in 1945.)

NEVER NEVER NEVVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVVER NEVERNEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER absolutely not, there I think I got my point across of were I stand

Dumbledore has always seemed kind, wise, thoughtful and fair to me.
What reason would he have for setting up Voldemort? Why waste time setting him and getting rid of for power? He turned down MoM's position. If that had been his plan why not take it?

In some ways he is because of his treatment of Harry.
He was the one who left Harry with the Dursleys.....he knew that Voldemort was in the forrest, but sent them out there for punishment. He's allowed Harry to take part in the triwizard tournament, if he was so good, kind and all powerful wouldn't he have changed any of the above.!

I would not blame the Dursleys treatment of Harry on Dumbledore. He just did what he thought was best for Harry. Who else could he place him with where he'd be free from fame?

Did Dumbledore know for certain Voldemort was in the woods?
He sent them with Hagrid. How could he know Harry would run into them?

The triwizard cup was sealed with magic that no one could back out.
If Dumbledore took Harry out then the magic couldn't stop anyone else from honouring their word.

Dumbledore is supposedly aware of how Harry has been treated because of his bedroom (under the stairs) and yet chose not to interfere, with a little charm to lighten the Dursleys up.
He hands over the cloak..invitation to Harry to search the third corrider - which he had described as dangerous.
As Harry had not put his name in the cup, it was not his honour at stake.

If it was within his powers to help Harry and he didn't there must be a trace of something bad within him

Regarding Book 1, "Dumbledore knew we would try and stop Voldemort. Rather than stop us, he taught us enough to help us."

Moreover, Dumbldore does nothing to help the other students with Snape, so why would he help one boy with his evil foster parents. Besides, school children need to learn to stand by themselves. Adults want always be there to help out their children. Its a part of growing up.

Secondly, Harry, whether or not he put his name in the Goblet is moot; he was entered into a magical contract and couldn't be let out.

Finally, where were you when I had these suspicions? You could have helped me prove he was evil.

Dumbledore is of the mind to teach kids how to help themselves.
If Harry had someone stepping in for him each time someone mistreated him where would he be?
Ron no doubt doesn't get protected from his own brothers. Are the Weasleys evil then?

Just because Dumbledore encourage students to stand up for themselves and to fend for themselves, doesn't make him evil. He can't help everyone who feels that they are mistreated. He knows that they need to learn how to stand up for themselves.

Harry also isn't the only person Dumbledore is watching. He has loads of students. Harry gets more attention sure but he can't be under his eye 24/7.

*nudge* because its a good topic that summer65 was thinking about :D

The look of triumph could also come from Dumbledore suddenly realizing HOW Harrys protection worked, and how that can help him in the fight against Voldemort.

But yes, that little comment IS suspiscious, and I hope we'll get the explanation for it in the future. It is very strange, but Dumbledore simply CAN'T be evil, he has helped the good side too much.

I hope it'll get explained too cuz it gets you thinking a lot of things, both good and bad. It could mean that DD thinks he knows how to finally defeat Voldemort. Or it could mean that DD thinks Voldemort is immortal now and maybe he is on the bad side after all, (which I know sounds unlikely) who knows

this is also posted a few pages down, but I didn't want to have to re-write the entire thing...

I think Dumbledore is on the good side.

First - Rowling has said in interview that Dumbledore is the eptiome of good. Why would she say this and turn around and pull the rug out from other us?

Fawkes wouldn't be with Dumledore if there were something fishy.

But here's the part that seals the deal for me.
The look of triumph. Why? Well - we don't know why, probably something in Harry's blood, or perhaps it's just because V is mortal and can actually be killed. But here's a throw away line that people don't pick up on in GoF....

After Harry comes back from the graveyard and is taken to Moody's office, Crouch/Moody begins interrogating him. When Crouch/Moody hears that V took Harry's blood he lets out a long slow hiss (I don't remember the correct verbiage, and I don't have my book with me).

Seems to me that Crouch/Moody also knows something about Harry's blood that Dumbledore knows, that V apparently doesn't know. Dumbledore, who is against V, gets a look of triumph, while Crouch, who is with V, lets out a hiss.

Something to ponder at least.

Well that convinced me (not that I needed convincing...)

Originally posted by DRaGoNoFiLlFaItH (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=230282#post230282))
Or it could mean that DD thinks Voldemort is immortal now and maybe he is on the bad side after all, (which I know sounds unlikely) who knows


Not even Voldemort thinks that. He said that he lowered his goals, and settled for his old body back, and that he will go for immortality later.

Of course, Dumbledor may still think he is immortal, but now you have a lot of ifs and buts and that's just ridicolous. :)

1 word to simplify my beliefs on this topic: Dumbledoreisnotevil Full stop

Ok. I'm about 99% sure that the look of triumph was that since Voldemort took some of Harry's blood, he is part mortal now and can be killed. Period.

Could be, but it still comes when he gets to know that Voldemort can touch him. Not when he gets to know that Voldemort is back in a mortal form. There is something fishy there.

But Dumbledore can't be secretly evil, it's simply impossible. So the explanation must be something else. Could even be a mistake by JKR. :D

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=230436#post230436))
Could even be a mistake by JKR.


Are you joking? Because... uh... no, really, it couldn't. She wouldn't put that in there by accident.

But I think people are running around like headless chickens with this rumour. It's not the first thing that came to my mind, I'll tell you. But it's the most extreme answer anybody can give and therefore the most popular theory (hey, what's a theory if it isn't sensational!).

Uh, why not? She obviously wouldn't put it in there intentionally by accident, because that's self-contradictory, but there HAVE been errors in the books, some that even have been changed. So why not? Maybe she ment that look to happen just slightly earlier, but missed it while proof-reading? It could happen. It's not less likely that most of the other theories in this forum. :p

Because it's part of a section which does indeed fit into the scene. Harry presumes he imagined the look when Dumbledore retreats behind his desk. Then Dumbledore sits down and continues the conversation. You can't add a whole description into a suitable paragraph 'by accident'.

I always thought that Dumbledore did the "look of triumph" because he now knows how to defeat Voldemort. In GOF Voldemort says "There was no hope of stealing the Sorcerer's Stone anymore, for I knew that Dumbledore would have seen to it that it was destroyed. But I was willing to embrace mortal life again before chasing immortality. I set my sights lower... I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength." Then he goes on to say how he did it with his father's bone and the blood of his enemy - Harry. So basically he admitts that he is just a mortal who is now going to look for immortality. If they can get to him before he becomes immortal than they have a chance. I think that is what the look of Triumph is.

Also I was wondering if Voldemort might get a bit of Harry's humanity the way Harry got a bit of V's magic and power when he cursed Harry. Any other thoughts on this transfer of powers, emotions, ideas or strengths.

I agree with GrangerGal.

I see this as one way that Voldemort will make himself vulnerable to utter defeat, yet he is not aware of it. DD expected him to do this to regain his life, but only DD knows about the secret catch.

that would be interesting......but I doubt that DD would say to everyone "I knew he would do that!"
I don't think DD is evil, but i would love it if he was!!! It would be such a twist!:elaugh:

Originally posted by Cat (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=230460#post230460))
Because it's part of a section which does indeed fit into the scene. Harry presumes he imagined the look when Dumbledore retreats behind his desk. Then Dumbledore sits down and continues the conversation. You can't add a whole description into a suitable paragraph 'by accident'.


Hmm, I guess you are right.
Which means it's still strange and unexplained. Oooh, I hope we get an explanation!

"He said my blood would make him stronger than if he used somebody elses. He said the protection my mother left in me - hed have it too. And he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face"
For a fleeting instant, HHarry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledores eyes
...
"Very well, Voldermort has over-come thatparticular barrier"

is basically what is says. It sould to me that it is more to do with the fact that he can touch his face, than something to do with immortality. I dont know what exactly; so i prefer the can-be-killed idea at the moment; but I thought id write this out for you people.

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=232025#post232025))
Which means it's still strange and unexplained. Oooh, I hope we get an explanation!


I'm sure we will! But it might not be explained in the next book, leaving it as even more of a terrible cliff-hanger. We can't expect all the answers to our questions to appear in the OOTP.

In fact, what if Dumbledore never explains himself and Harry has to work out another mystery for himself? That might only happen near the end, assuming that he defeats Voldemort (which I'm counting on him doing) near the very end.

Originally posted by Hpmons (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=232462#post232462))
"He said my blood would make him stronger than if he used somebody elses. He said the protection my mother left in me - hed have it too. And he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face"
For a fleeting instant, HHarry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledores eyes
...
"Very well, Voldermort has over-come thatparticular barrier"




I think it does have to do with Voldie's immortalirty. Cuz Voldemort said that if he has Harrys blood it would make him stronger, and he would have the protection Harrys mother left him. So maybe now he's become immortal to ways a wizard can kill him (a curse). But maybe Dumbledore looked triumphant cuz now he could be killed in mortal ways (a gun?). I dunno thats just my idea :??:

hello,
well i hope dumbeldore isnt evil but there is some chance the he might be.i however doubt it but Lews evidence and theory i thought was brill and my mind is slowly changing.
Dumbeldore i think is more of a merlin type figure though and the look of triumph isnt evil (i mean JK wouldnt have it that obvious ,she does things like that ,kind of reverse-pyshcology ,preparing us for something more imaginative)also the theory about Vol now being able to die cause he has human blood and perhaps good(harry) in him i think thats possible but perhaps JK will have a better outcome!
Also i have a theory-Harry and Voldemort are linked even before the blood taking thing,i think that for vol to die harry has to and that dumbeldore knows that .harry is too young to knowyet.however with all this destiny and you choose your own and all that stuff then maybe there is a way out but i think harry has to die sort of or else do something.i havent developed this theory properly in my mind so it isnt quite backed up or making sense so sorry.
also someone said to me ,what if harry turns out to be evil?thatd be different!
ok bye for now

I highly doubt Harrys evil, but I do agree w/ you that Harry may have to die in order for Voldemort to die. I think its a big possibility but of course it wont happen in OOTP

It would be a very good twist to the end of the books if that were true...But very sad as well; and since JKR always says on chats "You're another one who believes I wont kill Harry off?" etc, then it means he must live!

no I think it means she wants everyone to believe he'll live, so then it'll be a suprise if he dies

No, I don't think DD is evil. But, I do have a theory about the 'Look of Triumph' that he had in his eyes. ( If this theory's been posted before, forgive me:

In the 2nd book, Dumbledore told Harry that Voldie put some powers in Harry the night he gave him that scar. then, in the 4th book DD had the look of triumph in his eyes. I think that when dear old Voldie tried to kill Harry and all his powers, they went to Harry, so Voldie had to get them back, thus he used Harry's blood to get them back, as well as getting Harry's Mum's sacrifice and could touch him, sort of killing 2 birds with 1 stone.
I think DD had a theory somewhat like this and when he found out that Vlodie had used Harry's blood to come back, this proved this theory and now Dumbledore knows that harry has those powers .I think that's what the "Look of triumph in his eyes" was.

The 'Look of Triumph" seems to indicate that Dumbledore takes some part of Harry's tale as a confirmation of Dumbledore's thoughts about what Voldemort has been doing, or attempting to do. It is an affirmation that Dumbledore was on the right track in his theories and had been making the right plans to counter Voldemort. I'm not going to pretend I have the slightest idea what these plans are.

GryffindorSeeker: That is an interesing theory, it both mixes my theory that the look of triumph coming from Dumbledore understanding something or getting confirmation on his suspiscions, with a realization of something good: That Harry indeed may have gotten more powers than just the Parseltongue from whatshisname... Cool.

I found in book 4 that Voldemort said to the death eaters that he set his sights lower, that he was willing to embrace mortality before reaching immortality by using the flesh of his servant, bones of his father and the Blood of his enemy. So in my opinion, the look of triumph in Dumbledore's face has something to do with Voldemort's immortality. Although Voldemort could already touch Harry by using his blood, he also embraced mortal life again which only means that there is hope for them to defeat the dark lord.

Maybe Dumbledore is just happy Voldemort used Harry's blood because maybe it will make him vulnerable.

Was this posted before? Sorry for repeating.

fuzzy_muggle and too_wicked:

Well, yes, but the problem with that theory is that the look of triumph does not come when Dumbledore gets to know that Voldemort is back and mortal and that he used Harrys blood to get back. It comes when he gets to know that Voldemort can touch Harry.

Of course, Dumbledor could be just a bit slow, but that seems like a silly explanation.

And yes, it has been postedmany times before, although who wants to read through 7 pages of posts. ;)

Maybe Harry mistook his look of "Triumph" the look is seen through Harry's p.o.v after all - maybe it is actually fear?

lozenger8, Yes, he might have mistaken it.... But somehow I don't think so. I think we'll find out in the fifth or sixth book what the look of triumph is.
Sheesh! June 21 isn't close enough for me!!!!!

But I'm still sticking to my theory until proven otherwise!

Yes, I noticed that it came at the wrong time at well...
Possible...Harry can now touch Vol without being hurt somehow? Or perhaps it is something to do with his mothers protection. Perhaps DD knew that his mothers protection could never actually leave him, just Voldermort came over "that PARTICULAR barrier", but hasnt stopped Harry's mothers protection, just there are other things that the protection can do for Harry, that we havent found out about yet.