Deconstructing the Marauders V.9

I think Snape has very black and white thinking, no grey areas. There is right and there is wrong, nothing in between (which is why he's good at potions - exact ingredients, in exact amounts and in exact ways.)

I don't think he expects anyone to apologize to him. I don't think he would believe an apology. He would want a person's behavior to be different. If you were sorry for your behavior you would just change it and never do the thing you were sorry for again.

I think Snape would believe not paying attention in class is wrong. No apology would change that. Only paying attention from now on would make it right. I think Snape sees Harry as having all of James' bad faults and Snape is trying to change Harry, so he no longer has the bad faults.

D. sleep....
Nice points subtle:)
But I want to specifically compare present and past, not exactly, whether teaching changed him. Do you think his behaviour has changed after harry's coming. Has he started acting more harsh, or become more harsh? Or was he worse before... Just for speculations....

How do you think Snape would be when he is in good humour? Has he ever been? Personally, I feel Snape should have married, just to feel the real world. Is he far too lost in his past and even the present? No scene has been really shown when snape is not teaching, or scolding, or snarling, or in just sarcastic. Is there a world beyond hatred, beyond LV, beyond harry, or beyond even Dumbledore for him? I feel his feelings of hatred has intensified because he has dwelled for far too long in his past.

Asrivathsan: I'm glad you had a nice vacation. :) We went to a beautiful forest in the Smokey Mountains of North Carolina for our spring break, and it was so nice and quiet and boring, lol. :agree: I loved it!

The only real clue we have about Snape "Before Harry" is from Ron. After Harry's really bad first day in Potions class, Ron tells him not to worry about it because he always gives the twins a hard time, too. Since they are a year older, it would stand to reason that Snape has been giving certain people a difficult time probably the entire time he has been teaching. I'd still love to see the Ravenclaws in a class, though.

Goldenib: Hi - I think Snape has high standards for all the students, but especially Harry. And when Harry doesn't live up to his expectations, in more ways than one, he is sort of disgusted by it. I don't think that is an unusual way for a teacher to feel. I think someday, Harry will be sorry he didn't pay more attention in class, especially if he has to make a potion to save someone's life or his own life. What if Hermione isn't there? I believe that is why McGonagall and Snape both chastise Harry and Neville for letting Hermione help them too much, because it keeps them from learning it themselves.

I don't see Snape as someone who's ever been particularly happy--except maybe in terms of his own studies. He is, to me, someone who doesn't have a present: he is concerned with the past and the future (the Janus figure). He has never resolved his past (at least, until this point; stayed tuned for July 16!), and his whole concern is the future--Harry's facing and defeating Voldemort. I think that, in some way, his character has to develop more in the next two books, or he ends the series as someone left at loose ends--what does he have after the fall of Voldemort, when the war's over? (It puts me in mind of people such as the French Resistance fighters, after WWII--how can the rest of your life ever measure up to that standard??)

I have no doubt that Snape has always been a very harsh teacher--as I said before, I think that the minute he stepped into that class of people who had known him before, the hammer came down and he began to develop that intimidating persona that instills fear in his students--because, if they don't necessarily give him respect, they will fear him. I think the closest we've seen to Snape in a 'good humor' was the start of the Occlumency lessons, when he was making the overture to teach Harry--yet, even then, there was no mistaking that Snape's fundamental personality is stern.

When Snape lets Harry have it during Occlumency, it's in terms of Harry's being unprepared to face Voldemort: he won't be ready to deal with the power he will face. Harry doesn't concentrate in potions or in Occlumency; Harry doesn't pay attention to details in either; Harry doesn't exert himself in either (please note: Snape's POV!)...how will he ever survive? I think that, in potions, Snape's harshness is increased--because of the Harry/James bit, and because of Harry's lack of effort.

ETA--I suppose it would be diplomatic either to change the course of this conversation or to adjourn it to the Dev of Sev..... eek.

And, for those who have read some previous posts: I have a paper, three pages long, on my desk. : ) !!!!

But I also feel that dislike between Harry and Snape is not simply a result of Snape being unable to overcome the ghosts of the Marauders. Well that may be a large component of the reason I believe that Snape honestly dislikes Harry (which is his right to do).I think Snape has indeed grown to hate Harry himself for reasons not based on the fact that he is James's son, but I believe that this is the way their relationship started. In other words, I think Snape hated Harry in the beginning because he represented an echo of his past with the Marauders. But now that Harry has grown up a bit and now that his and Snape's relationship has progressed a bit farther, I think Snape's reasons for hating Harry have more to do with Harry himself rather than because he represents James. Though I'm sure this still factors into the reasons why Snape hates Harry, but it may not be quite as prevalent now as compared to when they first met.

If Snape doesn’t change I don’t see how Harry apologizing is going to help either one….they’ll just be back at square one.You're absolutely right that Harry's apology to Snape is only half of what would change their relationship. The other half has to come from Snape. This can't be just a one-sided effort- it must be concerted in order for things to change between them.
Is it really an apology if the behavior doesn't change?Exactly- this is why I feel that Harry's apology to Snape should be largely based on his actions rather than a verbose apology. I do feel that Harry must still say the words "I'm sorry" to Snape, but I feel that his actions would speak louder than words. While it's true that Snape could very well choose to misinterpret Harry's actions, the fact is that this would mean that Snape has not accepted Harry's apology, and there really wouldn't be much more that Harry could do. He would have done his part in trying to make things better between them- the rest would be up to Snape. As I mentioned earlier, this has to be a concerted effort in order for things to get better between Harry and Snape. So all Harry can really do is apologize and show he means it by changing his behavior. It is up to Snape to accept that apology and acknowledge Harry's behavioral changes.

I've been thinking about how unfortunate it is that two of the Marauders are dead, which means they can never apologise to him. But then, a different thought struck me: Out of all the Marauders, Lupin is the one who is most likely to offer an apology (even though he probably never did anything to him other than be quiet and be friends with the other marauders). Now that James and Sirius are both dead, would an apology from Lupin count as an apology from the Marauders as a group? Has Lupin become the Marauders' spokesperson?:tu: Excellent question. I'd like to hope that if Lupin apologized for his friends' actions, that Snape would accept it. Despite some of the cruel things that Snape has said/done to Lupin, I do think he thinks higher of Lupin than he thinks of James or Sirius. So perhaps if Lupin extended such a gesture of apologizing for his friends' behavior, Snape might take it into consideration. Though I don't think it would mean quite as much since Lupin wasn't really the one who did all of those things to Snape.

Yet, the most hate that Snape feels is still apparently directed at James. Why? Because James saved his life? The attack in SWM? Both these things seem to pale in contrast to the WW incident. There is a big piece of the puzzle missing here and without it, it is very hard to speculate on what it would take to get Snape to see the Marauders, and James in particular, as anything other than his teenage tormentors.This is another very good point, one that I have often speculated about. Right now, for all intensive purposes, it appears as though Snape hates Sirius much more than he hates James, as evidenced by the infamous "kitchen scene" in OotP. Therefore, I'm not sure how to reconcile this with the fact that everyone (most importantly, Dumbledore) keeps saying that Snape hated James the most. The only reasons I can think of for this are the reasons you mentioned clkginny: SWM and saving his life in the WW incident. Perhaps James caused Snape more humiliation than anything, and this is why he hates James more than Sirius. :huh: Right now, I'm not really sure.

He seems to have sufficient feelings to indicate that he knows he has overstepped and should do something about it.I agree, this is indeed one of the clues that indicates to me that eventually, Harry will begin to think about how to apologize to Snape and what that would mean for both him and for Snape.

I'd also like to add my compliments to SIP for posting some great and very relevant links about apologies. :tu:

He is, to me, someone who doesn't have a present: he is concerned with the past and the future (the Janus figure).:tu: That's an excellent way of looking at it. Indeed, this is quite true in many ways.And, for those who have read some previous posts: I have a paper, three pages long, on my desk. : ) !!!!Yay that's great! :)

I'd also like to add my compliments to SIP for posting some great and very relevant links about apologies.

Oh, thank you, RemusLupinLover! :blush:

I'm enjoying this entire discussion, maybe because it is about reconciliation instead of anger. How refreshing!:)

Did I post this quote before? I really like it, because it reminds me of how the Dursley's reacted when Harry said to say the "magic word."

In some families, please is described as the magic word. In our house, however, it was sorry.
~Margaret Laurence

:) The Dursleys could stand to make a few apologies, too!

And then I found this quote that I really liked too. I have no idea who this person is who said it, but it seems to describe Harry's situation:

The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect, he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise.
- Alden Nowlan.

Hey RemusLupinFan, I think your right about Harry and snape, I also think that snape hates Harry because look at his godfather, its Sirus, and snape doesent like him, I think that might be another reason why Snape dislikes Harry.

The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect, he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise.
- Alden Nowlan.

That is the perfect quote! At this point in time, Harry is still an adolescent and it even agrees with the quote. However, we'll have to wait and see until Book 6 whether or not he decides to become an adult. :huh: Actually it might take until Book 7 now that I think of it. I mean, could anyone imagine him accepting/forgiving Snape?

Welcome aboard, Potterwun!

This is really getting confusing to us old people (me), as the conversation over on Dev of Sev is paralleling this one...I no longer know whether I'm here or there--not that I had a firm grip on it to start with............

I'm inclined to agree witht he idea that an apology from Lupin for the rest of the Marauders wouldn't quite mean so much to Snape, since Lupin had little to do with their actions. However--there is the issue of what Snape heard in the Shack: Lupin's confession, in which he said all that Snape ever suspected of him. Before that, when Snape delivers the Wolfsbane Potion, Snape is courteous--not friendly, but definitely courteous. Lupin is trying to be warm, Snape is not--but he's hardly snarky, as he tells Lupin to drink the potion right away and that he has more if Lupin should need it. It's all unmistakably civil. But then there's the whole ending bit, yet followed by hints of civility again in OotP--an oft-repeated question: why on earth would Lupin think he could go up to Hogwarts and talk to Snape about Occlumency, if the rift was as huge as it would seem, logically, to be at the end of PoA?

As for Sirius, I don't think Snape associates Harry with Sirius' faults. I think the key is that Sirius himself is there, to be hated in person. Harry serves as a James substitute--perhaps Snape hates James so much only because James is inaccessible? (Random, toss-out idea)--because of his looks and some of his actions. However, even though Snape knows that Harry and Sirius are connected, he never particularly makes anything of it. Snape has the focus of his long pent-up hatred in the flesh; he doesn't need Harry as the substitute. In a similar way, he doesn't make any snarky connections between Harry and Lupin--he has Lupin to deal with directly.

(I can't say how happy I am about that paper!!! Sometimes--they do come through for you...and themselves!!!)

The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect, he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise.
- Alden Nowlan.
That's a great quote, but it makes me think that not many of the characters who are classified as adults in a legal sense really are, such as Sirius and Snape, neither of them seems to forgive easily.

As for Sirius, I don't think Snape associates Harry with Sirius' faults. I think the key is that Sirius himself is there, to be hated in person. Harry serves as a James substitute--perhaps Snape hates James so much only because James is inaccessible? (Random, toss-out idea)--because of his looks and some of his actions.
That's what I've been thinking. Since James is not there for Snape to blame he moved on to the person whom was similar to James, and whom is closer than James' only child, the boy who looks very similar to him? On the other hand, as you said, Sirius is there for him to hate; however, now that Sirius is no longer there for Snape to hate, will Harry get more hate put on him?

As for Remus apologizing to Snape - after PoA I wonder how well that would work. Snape was as eager to feed Remus to the dementors as he was Sirius. We don't see them interact at all in OotP, so we can't say if their relationship so to speak has improved.

As for Sirius, I don't think Snape associates Harry with Sirius' faults. I think the key is that Sirius himself is there, to be hated in person. Harry serves as a James substitute--perhaps Snape hates James so much only because James is inaccessible? (Random, toss-out idea)--because of his looks and some of his actions. However, even though Snape knows that Harry and Sirius are connected, he never particularly makes anything of it. Snape has the focus of his long pent-up hatred in the flesh; he doesn't need Harry as the substitute. In a similar way, he doesn't make any snarky connections between Harry and Lupin--he has Lupin to deal with directly. I think you're right. Sirius and Remus are a constant reminder now, while James is gone [ and unable to redeem or change himself in Snape's eyes ]

I can't agree with the "Snape hates Harry because James isn't around to hate anymore" idea. If James had lived, I'm sure several things would have been different, but I can't see Snape's treatment of Harry being much different if James was still alive. And truly, it is Snape's reaction to Lupin that makes me think this. In all, Snape dislikes Lupin less than the other marauders. And their interactions show this, especially when we compare the times we have seen Lupin/Snape interactions compared with the once we have seen a James/Snapte interaction and the couple times we have seen Sirius/Snape interactions. I don't think it has to do with James not being there, it has to do with the traits that he found James had in the most quantities, being percieved in Harry. Well, and assumptions, because Snape "knew" that James was arrogant and cruel, at least to him, and why would he think that "The Boy Who Lived" would be cut from different cloth. He assumed what he would see, and that is, indeed, what he saw, because it was what he was looking for. Snape's biggest problem with Harry is still those traits that James had, that Snape sees when he looks at Harry's behavior. He hasn't brought himself to see anything different. Those are the same traits he would've seen had James still been alive when Harry started at Hogwarts. Snape sees Harry through his own prejudice, and I can't see it being because the source of that prejudice isn't around to for him to vent on.

I don't think Harry has to apologize for not paying attention in class--that's too general...and, unfortunately, something teachers rather expect of students (which is sort of what Snape is driving at in the first day of potions speech). The act that I think Harry has to apologize for is the Pensieve dive--that's where he stepped so far out of line, that was not in the realm of normal student-teacher interaction. Harry does have a bit of a tendency to stick his nose into other people's private matters--one can see where it comes from: he snoops in order to gain informaation that otherwise isn't forthcoming. However, he goes over the line occasionally and looks where he has no business at all...

I'm not sure how Snape would react to an apology. It's pure speculation, anyway, so I'll just say that my gut reaction is that he would accept it. And that it would stun him, first.
:) I only brought in that thing about not paying attention in class because it was the closest parallel I could find to you and your student. Since you often compare yourself to Snape, I thought it would be interesting to hear what you thought Snape would do in a similar situation. But yes, what Harry should apologise for, is the Pensieve, not for not paying attention. (I teach a couple of classes myself this term, and it's quite difficult to be enthusiastic when the students look like they're about to fall alseep! But I know I can look like that myself, too, when I'm paying attention, really. :lol: )

He is, to me, someone who doesn't have a present: he is concerned with the past and the future (the Janus figure).
:clap:

what does he have after the fall of Voldemort, when the war's over?
Then he will be numb. There will be a ringing silence in his life. Then, slowly, hopefully, he will start to live.

Or -- maybe he will be like one of those veterans from WW2 who speaks of nothing but the war. Will he tell everybody about his dangerous spying work? :p


I've been thinking about how unfortunate it is that two of the Marauders are dead, which means they can never apologise to him. But then, a different thought struck me: Out of all the Marauders, Lupin is the one who is most likely to offer an apology (even though he probably never did anything to him other than be quiet and be friends with the other marauders). Now that James and Sirius are both dead, would an apology from Lupin count as an apology from the Marauders as a group? Has Lupin become the Marauders' spokesperson?
Excellent question. I'd like to hope that if Lupin apologized for his friends' actions, that Snape would accept it. Despite some of the cruel things that Snape has said/done to Lupin, I do think he thinks higher of Lupin than he thinks of James or Sirius. So perhaps if Lupin extended such a gesture of apologizing for his friends' behavior, Snape might take it into consideration. Though I don't think it would mean quite as much since Lupin wasn't really the one who did all of those things to Snape.
I'm inclined to agree witht he idea that an apology from Lupin for the rest of the Marauders wouldn't quite mean so much to Snape, since Lupin had little to do with their actions.

Thank you. :) The reason I thought Lupin might have become the Marauders' spokeperson now, is that I see him as number 3 in their ranking order (if that makes sense). James is the leader, Sirius is number 2, Remus is number 3 and Peter is number 4. After James died, Sirius would have been "deputy head Marauder" (though in Azkaban ...). After Sirius died, Remus is "deputy head Marauder". So even if Remus didn't actively take part in SWM, and certainly didn't intend for the Whomping Willow incident to happen, he could still, now, be in a position to apologise for these things. Er, does this make any sense at all???
This is another very good point, one that I have often speculated about. Right now, for all intensive purposes, it appears as though Snape hates Sirius much more than he hates James, as evidenced by the infamous "kitchen scene" in OotP. Therefore, I'm not sure how to reconcile this with the fact that everyone (most importantly, Dumbledore) keeps saying that Snape hated James the most. The only reasons I can think of for this are the reasons you mentioned clkginny: SWM and saving his life in the WW incident. Perhaps James caused Snape more humiliation than anything, and this is why he hates James more than Sirius. Right now, I'm not really sure
If James was the leader of the group, this could make sense. (Not sure why I think James was the leader??? Somebody (Subtle?) made a really good point a while ago that everybody else is dependent on James, only James doesn't need the others. Sirius needs James to stay with after he has run away from home. Sirius also needs James as a friend to balance his bad home situation. Remus needs friends because he has never had any before, because he's a werewolf, so he needs both Sirius and James. Peter needs all three - again, he needs friends, and he also needs somebody to help him with school work, and also protection. Summary: james needs none --> he's the leader. Sirius needs James --> he's number 2. Remus needs both Sirius and James --> he's number 3. Peter needs all three --> he's number 4. Did I remember this argument right, or am I making half of it up? :) )
(I can't say how happy I am about that paper!!! Sometimes--they do come through for you...and themselves!!!)
:tu: Excellent! :lol:

Thank you. :) The reason I thought Lupin might have become the Marauders' spokeperson now, is that I see him as number 3 in their ranking order (if that makes sense). James is the leader, Sirius is number 2, Remus is number 3 and Peter is number 4. After James died, Sirius would have been "deputy head Marauder" (though in Azkaban ...). After Sirius died, Remus is "deputy head Marauder". So even if Remus didn't actively take part in SWM, and certainly didn't intend for the Whomping Willow incident to happen, he could still, now, be in a position to apologise for these things. Er, does this make any sense at all???
It makes sense, but I still think that since James and Sirius were the ones who did all of those things then the apology might not be accepted as one from them all. The ranking order is something that I've done as well, only I see Sirius and James as tied for the leader, probably because I think of them both as wanting to be leaders, not followers.
If James was the leader of the group, this could make sense. (Not sure why I think James was the leader??? Somebody (Subtle?) made a really good point a while ago that everybody else is dependent on James, only James doesn't need the others. Sirius needs James to stay with after he has run away from home. Sirius also needs James as a friend to balance his bad home situation. Remus needs friends because he has never had any before, because he's a werewolf, so he needs both Sirius and James. Peter needs all three - again, he needs friends, and he also needs somebody to help him with school work, and also protection. Summary: james needs none --> he's the leader. Sirius needs James --> he's number 2. Remus needs both Sirius and James --> he's number 3. Peter needs all three --> he's number 4. Did I remember this argument right, or am I making half of it up? :) )
Interesting, I like your summery of it all, I think that James did need them though, not in the exact same way, but still, I believe that he at least needs Sirius. Sirius because they seem to get along so well, and he seems to stop James from being too annoying, "Harry had the distinct impression that Sirius was the only one for whom James would have stopped showing off." (OotP, U.S. Hardback Edition, page 645.) He probably needed Remus too, which I believe is the reason they were so close, they helped each other and depended on each other.

Thanks for the warm welcome... Unfortunately it took me so long to reply, as I was barely near a computer yesterday. Seeing the discussion has moved on a bit I hop on board again...


Thank you. The reason I thought Lupin might have become the Marauders' spokeperson now, is that I see him as number 3 in their ranking order (if that makes sense). James is the leader, Sirius is number 2, Remus is number 3 and Peter is number 4. After James died, Sirius would have been "deputy head Marauder" (though in Azkaban ...). After Sirius died, Remus is "deputy head Marauder". So even if Remus didn't actively take part in SWM, and certainly didn't intend for the Whomping Willow incident to happen, he could still, now, be in a position to apologise for these things. Er, does this make any sense at all???

It makes sense, but I still think that since James and Sirius were the ones who did all of those things then the apology might not be accepted as one from them all. The ranking order is something that I've done as well, only I see Sirius and James as tied for the leader, probably because I think of them both as wanting to be leaders, not followers.

I quite agree with FireInTheSky. Sirius and James were definitely the leading figures of the Maruaders. Lupin, as he also said himself, didn't have much influence over them. He didn't even make great efforts to intervene when they were bullying Snape; I guess he already knew that he'd have little influence on them. Of course, this make's him partially guilty by not trying to help the victim, but on the other hand an apology for what the others have done wouldn't have enough "strength" to back it up.
Anyway, in my opinion an apology is always weaker if someone else offers it on behalf over the "wrong-doer". But then the question is: how can a dead person offer an apology? Or is it up to the injured to forgive...

It isn't that James doesn't need the others; he does, or they all wouldn't be his friends. But what struck me about the group was the Island of Misfit Toys pattern: of the group, James appears to be the one with the most 'normal' background and life--admittedly, we don't have much to go on with him, but it's what the details we do have point to. So that's why I identify him as the center of the group. His relationship with Sirius reminds me a bit of Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn--Tom looks up to the edgy street kid who has no parental figures and lives by his wits; Huck looks up to the respectable, middle-class boy who knows the 'right' way to behave because he's been brought up properly. An interesting side note: in Twain's novels, Huck concedes to Tom and follows his lead...

Were James still alive, I think Snape's reaction to Harry would be quite different. I agree that Snape looked for James in Harry and, when he had the negative qualities 'confirmed,' he despised the boy even more. But I think that a major contributing factor to this was the shock of seeing the ghost of James sitting in front of him. I don't think--if nothing else had changed between Snape and James over the years--that Snape would ever have been happy to see James' child in his class; that nothing did or could change because James was gone only exacerbated Snape's attitude. I think a key point comes in PoA, when Snape berates Harry for being as arrogant as his father, in refusing to believe that he could be wrong about Sirius--that gets very personal...and I don't just mean in terms of talking about Harry and James. That says something quite emphatic about Snape's feelings and their cause. And it also shows how thoroughly Snape has crossed Harry with James.

Subtle, congrats for succeding with your student. was the paper good?

Ehm, can I disagree on who the leader of the Marauder is? As much as I like Subtle's parallel with Huck and Tom, I always pictured Sirius as the leader, or tied at the most.

My reason for this comes from observing that it was Sirius who set up the prank, he seems like the most boisterous of the four and he's the one who states he's bored and have James bother Snivellus to keep him entretained. Also the quote FireInTheSky pointed out "Harry had the distinct impression that Sirius was the only one for whom James would have stopped showing off." (OotP, U.S. Hardback Edition, page 645.) can be read as James looking up to Sirius, willing to stop impressing Lily for his friend's sake.

I can compromise for a tied-leadership of the two, simply based on what Minerva and Hagrid say about James and Sirius being always together and the twins having a good chance of rivalry for the biggest pranksters. (I don't have the books with me, but I hope you get which part I mean, in the Three Broomsticks in PoA)

I agree with the rest of the order, that Lupin is "higher up" than Peter.

It isn't that James doesn't need the others; he does, or they all wouldn't be his friends. But what struck me about the group was the Island of Misfit Toys pattern: of the group, James appears to be the one with the most 'normal' background and life--admittedly, we don't have much to go on with him, but it's what the details we do have point to. So that's why I identify him as the center of the group.
So I did make half of it up, then! :rotfl: Sorry about that.
But I think that a major contributing factor to this was the shock of seeing the ghost of James sitting in front of him.
Yes, just look at the stare he gives Harry at the start of term feast in book 1. Harry later interprets it as a sign that he's The Evil One who's plotting to steal the Philosopher's stone, but I'm pretty sure his look of hatred comes from the shock of seing James' face in the crowd.
Ehm, can I disagree on who the leader of the Marauder is?
Sure you can. :)
I agree that Sirius is more flashy/showy than James. That Sirius seems to take the initiative. But I picture James as a more silent leader, who doesn't need to show off as much (though he does show off with the snitch I admit). Er, my argument is rather lousy, isn't it. :lol:

I'm not going to argue why Snape hates Harry as I appear to be outnumbered.

Leadership of the Marauders is interesting. I agree that James is the most "centered" of the group, but I'm not sure about leadership. At least two times James defered to Sirius: one is in SWM when it was Sirius' boredom that instigated the attack on Snape. The other is very important, when Sirius suggested that Pettigrew be made the secret keeper instead of himself. I may defer to my friends, but when my family's life is on the line, I'm going to make the decision myself. James did defy Sirius in the WW incident, but he appears to have willing followed Sirius the rest of the time, at least, with the current information. So it is a bit of a conundrum. I believe that James and Sirius shared the leader role, with the edge going to Sirius, by virtue of either his recklessness, or his natural take charge attitude.

Good points, Clkginny. :tu: Since I don't have much time right now, I'll only comment on this one:
At least two times James defered to Sirius: one is in SWM when it was Sirius' boredom that instigated the attack on Snape.
But it's James who initiates the attack. Sirius says he's bored, and then James says "this will liven you up. Look who it is." James is the one who decides there is going to be an attack. Therefore I perceive him as the leader in this situation, even if he gets the idea from Sirius' complaints of being bored.

The other examples you gave: Good points :tu:

Thank-you. I know you don't have time to respond right now, but I'll throw this out here anyway.

I guess my feeling is that SWM wouldn't have happened if Sirius hadn't said that. I could very well be wrong, but it was like the catalyst. "Man, I'm bored" "Well, here comes the cure, let's pick on him"

I didn't explain myself very well on that.

It really doesn't seem that easy to give the group a ranking. Lupin and Pettigrew seem to be rather content with their place within the group however, Sirius and James do have their changes of role. At certain times I'd place James between Sirius and Remus looking at the way he thinks and behaves (implus like Sirius most of the time, but then also knowing when it goes to far – see WW incident).
It's really hard to tell. I sometimes wonder how these boys would have been each on their own. Just as boastful? Or more in the shadows of some event. It's interesting how a group feeling or knowing that your pals are watching can change the behaviour of a person – especially when teenagers want to prove themselves not being children anymore...

Clkginny, cood points! :tu:

I'm on the "sirius is leader" side, but I'll take a leaf out of your sig and play devil's advocate.

I think many people percieve James as the leader because he's the one who is father to Harry and then sacrifices to defend him and Lily from LV. He impersonates what Sirius said as "you should have died rather than betray your friends", he did die rather than betraying them.

He's also percieved as leader because he's the one who keeps Sirius from crossing the limit in WW, and that act takes a true Gryffindor. People assume that a brave Gryffindor would be leader.

People also tend to center the characters around Harry, obviously, and the fact that Sirius was Best Man at the Potter's wedding seems to give Sirius a second-in-command role.

All these three things make it appear as if James is the stronger man, and the wisest. But the real point is, the leader is not always the best man. If that was the rule, Lupin should have been leader, being the wisest character.

Remember also that James might have been top-of-the-class, but Sirius was definitely top-of-the-looks. I don't know about British boarding schools, but usually 15-years-old go for looks rather than grades (look at Ron in GoF!), and that rule applies to friends as well as "love interests".

That said, I stand by Sirius being the "leader", although certainly not in a Draco sort of way. Probably the very concept of "leadership" can be discussed.

Asrivathsan: I'm glad you had a nice vacation. We went to a beautiful forest in the Smokey Mountains of North Carolina for our spring break, and it was so nice and quiet and boring, lol. I loved it!
That sounds good.:tu: Boring vacations are always nice. Its better to have them, than having what Harry has.... too much excitement, and sleepless nights...

I agree that James is the most "centered" of the group, but I'm not sure about leadership.
I feel that too. But is it because we see everything from harry's view, and the whole story revolves around harry that we feel that james was the "centered"? At that time, how would it all have been? Sirius seems to be more outgoing(I say this because I can't see how a human/wizard can be more forward than him, mostly). Harry was born to james. So, if he had been sirius's child, what do you think we would have felt. Its hard to imagine, really.
I guess my feeling is that SWM wouldn't have happened if Sirius hadn't said that. I could very well be wrong, but it was like the catalyst. "Man, I'm bored" "Well, here comes the cure, let's pick on him"
This exactly, is what i mean when I talk about sirius...

I think Snape has indeed grown to hate Harry himself for reasons not based on the fact that he is James's son, but I believe that this is the way their relationship started. In other words, I think Snape hated Harry in the beginning because he represented an echo of his past with the Marauders. But now that Harry has grown up a bit and now that his and Snape's relationship has progressed a bit farther, I think Snape's reasons for hating Harry have more to do with Harry himself rather than because he represents James. Though I'm sure this still factors into the reasons why Snape hates Harry, but it may not be quite as prevalent now as compared to when they first met.
I really like this, and completely agree. Also, often, with humans/wizards if someone tends to think he/she dislikes a thing/person/place, and broods over it, its rare that he/she changes mind later on. If a bowl of porridge is kept in front of you, and someone near says that the porridge is bad, or old or whatever, you never feel like eating it, or may even be unable to do so. I guess, if you think less about it, its better. And probably snape has wasted too much time in culturing the feeling of hatred in him, that makes him overlook anygood point in harry, or even any difference between harry and james. So my feeling is, as RemusLupinFan has said, snape now sees harry as harry, but initial thoughts have done the damage.

Welcome back, Asrivathsan.

Thank-you Severa78. You gave me a wonderful idea on how to present what I see.

If we look at the trio, we call Harry the leader. However, most of the time Harry follows whatever it is that Ron wants to do. Of course, Ron follows Harry quite a bit as well. (Ford Anglia-Ron's idea; Follow the spiders-Harry's idea). They seem to trade leadership of the trio back and forth. Now, on a day to day basis I'm going to say that Ron is the leader. Why? Because most of the time, Harry says nothing, it is Ron who says something. Now, when the situation is serious Harry naturally takes on the leadership role. This seems similar to the Marauders. James was perfectly content to let Sirius make decisions, but when the situation got serious (Sirius?) then James would step up (WW incident). However, there is the secret keeper business. Why would James defer on that? This, added to what I already said, gives Sirius the edge, to me.

Thank-you Severa78. You gave me a wonderful idea on how to present what I see.My pleasure :blush:

If we look at the trio, we call Harry the leader. However, most of the time Harry follows whatever it is that Ron wants to do. Of course, Ron follows Harry quite a bit as well. (Ford Anglia-Ron's idea; Follow the spiders-Harry's idea). They seem to trade leadership of the trio back and forth. Now, on a day to day basis I'm going to say that Ron is the leader. Why? Because most of the time, Harry says nothing, it is Ron who says something. Now, when the situation is serious Harry naturally takes on the leadership role. This seems similar to the Marauders. James was perfectly content to let Sirius make decisions, but when the situation got serious (Sirius?) then James would step up (WW incident). However, there is the secret keeper business. Why would James defer on that? This, added to what I already said, gives Sirius the edge, to me.I concour. And remember to add this to the Mirrors thread.. ;)

Good question!

I really don't know what to think! Who was the leader of the group?

I tend to say that it was James, but not because he was Harry's father and Harry sees him this way, but because of the way I perceive him, especially as a more grown up version, and not as a kid!

I see James as being at the middle between Sirius and Remus!

Sirius was the impulsive one, the reckless one and the one that held a little madness within! Sirius was not balanced! He did have an amount of anger within himself, anger that surfaced from time to time and expressed itself in incidents like the WW! It was the consequence of the way he grew up! he was restless, always in action, always trying to do something and to prove something, especially to himself!

Remus was the quite one, the more mature and the wisest of the three. he was the one who enjoyed solitude and liked to be by himself from time to time, with a good book, just sitting in front of the fireplace! he was probably a little reserved, most definitely calm and gentle.

James was just in the middle! Impulsive and reckless, but not so much as Sirius, his actions were not motivated by a restlesness and an anger existing within himself, but by a simple desire to show off, to be liked and to be popular! Once he got over that, the mature James surfaced! The one who was probably quite level-headed and not so impulsive.

Now, who was the leader? I say James,maybe because I see him as being the main support for Sirius.

But then, there is also the scene in OOTp where Harry has the feeling that James would not have stopped to show off for any one else besides Sirius! So it seems that Sirius was the one controling James- well, not exactly controling, more like influencing- and not james the one influencing Sirius!

Or maybe we shouldn't talk about absolute leadership!

Maybe there were differents things which had different leaders. For example, James was the leader when it came to sports! he commanded and he was the star! Sirius and James or James and Sirius were the leaders when it came to pranks. It may have depended on the prank! Remus was the leader on the nights of the full moons and Peter, well, Peter was not the leader at anything! :)

One thing is sure, at least for me: Peter was the tag-along

As for Sirius, I don't think Snape associates Harry with Sirius' faults. I think the key is that Sirius himself is there, to be hated in person. Harry serves as a James substitute--perhaps Snape hates James so much only because James is inaccessible? (Random, toss-out idea)--because of his looks and some of his actions. However, even though Snape knows that Harry and Sirius are connected, he never particularly makes anything of it. Snape has the focus of his long pent-up hatred in the flesh; he doesn't need Harry as the substitute. In a similar way, he doesn't make any snarky connections between Harry and Lupin--he has Lupin to deal with directly. You’re right about this, Sirius is a completely different person to be hated “in person”, as you put it, because Sirius is there “in the flesh”. No matter how much Harry might behave like Sirius, I agree that it doesn’t make sense for Snape to hate Sirius through Harry because Sirius is present. I don’t think the only reason why Snape hates Harry so much is because James can no longer be reached, but I agree that it probably does play a role in it. I agree that in his mind, Snape twists many of Harry’s traits such that they appear to be identical to James’s traits, but I don’t believe this is the whole story. What I mean to say is that Snape hates Harry for many different reasons: 1) because he resembles James such that he represents James, who Snape can no longer deal with directly; 2) because many of his traits can be twisted by Snape such that they correlate to James’s character traits; 3) Snape likely also hates Harry for Harry, ie for reasons that have nothing to do with James. Thus, I don’t think it’s any one thing that makes Snape hate Harry; it’s likely a multitude of factors. Also, I think the reasons for Snape’s hatred of Harry have changed since he first met Harry, as I talked about in an earlier post.

About leadership within the Marauders:
I’ve always believed it was a tie between Sirius and James. Both seemed to be able to influence the other, and from the way Sirius speaks in OotP, it appears as if James and Sirius each led the Marauders in different situations. I think that the number of situations where Sirius and James each took the lead must have been roughly equal, so they may have sort of "toggled" the leadership between them. And sometimes, it’s possible that they both led in certain instances. It seems from the quote provided by FireInTheSky and the part where McGonagall says that James and Sirius were the "dynamic duo", I'd say that they both were the leaders of the Marauders in their own right. If you wanted to choose one Leader of the Marauders though, I'm not sure you could do it without seeing more of the Marauders' daily interactions.

Also, not all groups have leaders. Maybe one is dominant, or two,but there really is not much need of a leader. James and Sirius would go about doing things, peter would follow them and Lupin would act like a peacemaker.... maybe thats all that would have been there in that group, when it comes to leadership.....

I was fascinated with the leadership discussion, as a whole, so I thought I'd look the word up in the dictionary. Here's what I found:lead·er·ship ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ldr-shp)
n.
1. The position or office of a leader
2. Capacity or ability to lead
3. A group of leaders
4. Guidance; directionI noticed some synonims (sp?) are also: initiative, foresight and capacity.

I think number 3 supports the idea of the two or even three of them shareing leadership.

Number 2 seems to point to Sirius, but "foresight" hardly apllies to him.

Initiative apllies to James, as does capacity.

Interestingly enough, guidance seems to point to neither, or maybe to Lupin (?)

On a side note: the three synonims seem to aplly much better to the trio: initiative=Harry, foresight=Ron, capacity=Hermione

Hope this helps the discussion! :p

You’re right about this, Sirius is a completely different person to be hated “in person”, as you put it, because Sirius is there “in the flesh”. No matter how much Harry might behave like Sirius, I agree that it doesn’t make sense for Snape to hate Sirius through Harry because Sirius is present. I don’t think the only reason why Snape hates Harry so much is because James can no longer be reached, but I agree that it probably does play a role in it. I agree that in his mind, Snape twists many of Harry’s traits such that they appear to be identical to James’s traits, but I don’t believe this is the whole story. What I mean to say is that Snape hates Harry for many different reasons: 1) because he resembles James such that he represents James, who Snape can no longer deal with directly; 2) because many of his traits can be twisted by Snape such that they correlate to James’s character traits; 3) Snape likely also hates Harry for Harry, ie for reasons that have nothing to do with James. Thus, I don’t think it’s any one thing that makes Snape hate Harry; it’s likely a multitude of factors. Also, I think the reasons for Snape’s hatred of Harry have changed since he first met Harry, as I talked about in an earlier post.

I perfectly understand why people say Snape "hates" Harry, but I find that I see this a little differently. I'm starting to wince whenever I see the word "hate" between Snape and Harry, because deep down I don't think Snape hates him, anymore than Harry really hates back. I think what Snape hates is seeing Harry under the influence of Sirius, because it reminds him of the bad old days and he thinks he sees history repeating itself (only Harry is NOT James.)

Plus, Snape has an ego and wants Harry to listen to him instead of reckless and often illogical Sirius. I truly think this is why Sirius had to die, so that others would get a chance to influence Harry. Sirius is such a strong character, both psychologically as a "brother/uncle" figure and in a literary sense, so that when he is in the room, Harry can't really concentrate on what anyone else is saying.

About leadership within the Marauders:
I’ve always believed it was a tie between Sirius and James. Both seemed to be able to influence the other, and from the way Sirius speaks in OotP, it appears as if James and Sirius each led the Marauders in different situations. I think that the number of situations where Sirius and James each took the lead must have been roughly equal, so they may have sort of "toggled" the leadership between them.

I love the word "toggled"! That really fits, doesn't it? :tu: Just as it is impossible to say who the dominant Weasley Twin is.

And sometimes, it’s possible that they both led in certain instances. It seems from the quote provided by FireInTheSky and the part where McGonagall says that James and Sirius were the "dynamic duo", I'd say that they both were the leaders of the Marauders in their own right. If you wanted to choose one Leader of the Marauders though, I'm not sure you could do it without seeing more of the Marauders' daily interactions.

That phrase "dynamic duo" (which comes from the old tv show "Batman and Robin," lol) reminds me of what Snape says in CoS, when, during the dueling club scene he calls Harry and Ron "The Dream Team." Isn't that the name of a British TV show? Do you think McGonagall and Snape watch muggle television together? Maybe at Mrs. Figg's house? :p

~Off Topic~ Did anyone catch in "Napoleon Dynamite," when Napoleon and Pedro are hanging the campaign posters, what theme song they are playing in the movie? :evil: The "A" Team, lol. What's funny is that Pedro had just shaved his head, like Mr. T. :rotfl: I honestly don't know why I'm so obsessed with that movie, except that I totally understand all the nerds, lol. (Do you hear me, Subtle?) I can see myself in a girl who makes 500 boondoggle keychains, a boy who draws "Ligers, bred for their skills in magic," and sweet Pedro who is intimidated by having to make a speech. My children see me in Napoleon's brother who sits in the kitchen having a chat room all day, lol. "I'm training to be a cage fighter." OMG!

No, seriuously SIP, I didn't. I just saw it once. Its amazing how you caught it!

I think what Snape hates is seeing Harry under the influence of Sirius, because it reminds him of the bad old days and he thinks he sees history repeating itself (only Harry is NOT James.)
But what about the days before POA. And even during POA story, harry thought that sirius was a murderer(I presume Snape knew about it). Snape's dislike towards harry has been there since the beginning, and is intensifying now.
Plus, Snape has an ego and wants Harry to listen to him instead of reckless and often illogical Sirius.
I agree with that. Was snape a mini-pettigrew? Was he too ignored(excepting James and co. I wish they had ignored him)? Was he considered no good in his early days? We know, or maybe presume that he is good in potions and in a way is a wizard with some powers. But in his early days, maybe due to his looks, or his attitude, or just his character he was not regarded by others. This is all just a speculation, but that is why he bullies students now. We can see that he has not been able to forget his past and is perhaps taking some sort of revenge on Harry(sorry, SIP:) ) or showing his anger towards harry. So is it because of a similar reason that he is sour to the students? Dear Snape....

Do you think McGonagall and Snape watch muggle television together?
Hmmm.... how would that be?

Snape and McGonagal are sitting on a sofa, and watching XXX

McGonagal: I want to change the channel. Can I have the remote? (raises her eyebrows)
Snape(looks offended): But this is the best program. Minevra, I wonder how you have such improper choices.
McGonagal: You can go on watching Severus(sp), I will go and work. I can't tolerate such shows.
Snape(snarling): As you wish. Just because you think it is not good, it does not mean that others shouldn't watch it
McGonagal(with a frosty voice): So be it. I thought, for once, you would be different.
Snape: Excuse me, you should be the one. (puts the TV off, lets the remote go)
McGonagal: There's a good boy. You see, griffindor always wins.

No SIP, it wouldn't work... ;)

Quote from clkginny:
If we look at the trio, we call Harry the leader. However, most of the time Harry follows whatever it is that Ron wants to do. Of course, Ron follows Harry quite a bit as well. (Ford Anglia-Ron's idea; Follow the spiders-Harry's idea). They seem to trade leadership of the trio back and forth. Now, on a day to day basis I'm going to say that Ron is the leader. Why? Because most of the time, Harry says nothing, it is Ron who says something. Now, when the situation is serious Harry naturally takes on the leadership role. This seems similar to the Marauders. James was perfectly content to let Sirius make decisions, but when the situation got serious (Sirius?) then James would step up (WW incident). However, there is the secret keeper business. Why would James defer on that? This, added to what I already said, gives Sirius the edge, to me.
It could be that James didn't so much defer to Sirius as accept Sirius's plan. Why turn down a good idea just because you didn't think of it?

Calling anyone a leader in a group of 3 or 4 people is a difficult task. For example the WW incident showed that James could go against Sirius...so Sirius is clearly the leader only as far as James wants him to be.

by RemusLupinFan About leadership within the Marauders:
I’ve always believed it was a tie between Sirius and James. Both seemed to be able to influence the other, and from the way Sirius speaks in OotP, it appears as if James and Sirius each led the Marauders in different situations. I think that the number of situations where Sirius and James each took the lead must have been roughly equal, so they may have sort of "toggled" the leadership between them. And sometimes, it’s possible that they both led in certain instances. It seems from the quote provided by FireInTheSky and the part where McGonagall says that James and Sirius were the "dynamic duo", I'd say that they both were the leaders of the Marauders in their own right. If you wanted to choose one Leader of the Marauders though, I'm not sure you could do it without seeing more of the Marauders' daily interactions.

This is how I see things, too! Maybe with a light advantage for James. I think they J and S were inseparable, they were seen as a sole person!

About the reasons why Snape hates Harry

I think that there are two reasons why Snape hates Harry:
1. He is James's son, he is the son of a person he loathed with all his heart!
2. Harry is the boy who lived! He is the hero!
Snape hates Harry's popularity, he hates the recognition Harry gets, because this is something he wantes and do not have!
He wants to have recognition! He wants to be a hero, he wants to be awarded the Merlin order etc.

Harry is also the boy who defeated Voldemort and Snape wants to be him the one who defeats Voldemort.

This is why he hates Harry! He doesn't hate him for other reasons, in my opinion! After Snape met Harry he just looked for proofs that Harry was the way Snape thought he was! An arrogant spoiled kid, like his father and a hero without merrits!

Just my opinion!

About the reasons why Snape hates Harry

I think that there are two reasons why Snape hates Harry:
1. He is James's son, he is the son of a person he loathed with all his heart!
2. Harry is the boy who lived! He is the hero!
Snape hates Harry's popularity, he hates the recognition Harry gets, because this is something he wantes and do not have!
He wants to have recognition! He wants to be a hero, he wants to be awarded the Merlin order etc.

Harry is also the boy who defeated Voldemort and Snape wants to be him the one who defeats Voldemort.

I don't think that Snape hates Harry because he is the hero. He hates Harry because he hated James and he is too consumed by his hatred of James to see that Harry is a different person.

The same hatred evidences itself directly against Sirius - in OotP savours the opportunity to put him down. In doing this, Snape could be regarded as building up his own part, risking life and limb, but I think he does this because he knows it will annoy and anger Sirius.

Personally, I don't see any evidence that Snape himself wants to be a hero. If, as I think, Snape is risking his life helping the Order to spy on Voldemort he would be enough of a hero anyway.

I don't think that Snape hates Harry because he is the hero. He hates Harry because he hated James and he is too consumed by his hatred of James to see that Harry is a different person.

The same hatred evidences itself directly against Sirius - in OotP savours the opportunity to put him down. In doing this, Snape could be regarded as building up his own part, risking life and limb, but I think he does this because he knows it will annoy and anger Sirius.

Personally, I don't see any evidence that Snape himself wants to be a hero. If, as I think, Snape is risking his life helping the Order to spy on Voldemort he would be enough of a hero anyway.

I think there are several scenes where Snape proves that he dislikes the fact that harry is the boy who lived! If I am mistaken I will be the first to admit it, but as far as I remember, Snape does hate Harry for being the boy who lived! In my opinion this proves to me that 1. Snape has another reason to assume that Harry is a spoiled, arrogant prat; 2. he is envious

I perfectly understand why people say Snape "hates" Harry, but I find that I see this a little differently. I'm starting to wince whenever I see the word "hate" between Snape and Harry, because deep down I don't think Snape hates him, anymore than Harry really hates back.
Well, I think it all depends on each individuals perception of hate, to me hate is the strongest form of dislike, an intense feeling that should not be used to describe someone lightly. I can't see any reason why Snape could feel actual hate towards any of the Marauders, I think that he dislikes them, but I believe that hate is too strong of a word to use. That's just using my perception of hate though, others may view hate as a more mild thing then I do.

Dictionary time:

hate
v. hat·ed, hat·ing, hates
v. tr.

1.
1. To feel hostility or animosity toward.
2. To detest.
2. To feel dislike or distaste for: hates washing dishes.


v. intr.

To feel hatred.


n.

1. Intense animosity or dislike; hatred.
2. An object of detestation or hatred: My pet hate is tardiness.

The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect, he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise.
- Alden Nowlan.

Ah, I found the quote I was searching for, in my French class today we watched a movie and the narrator was describing an event that happened in his life when he had been lied to by people he trusted he said something along the lines of "That was the day that I realized that grown-ups can lie, just like children can." This was pretty off topic, but the first thing that popped into my mind was this discussion, so I thought I'd share that with you all.

EDIT: I'm aware that I might seem like a hypocrite because I have used "hate" to describe Snape's feelings towards Harry as well, but I was thinking more along the lines of "dislike" when I've said that.

Quote from FireInTheSky:
Well, I think it all depends on each individuals perception of hate, to me hate is the strongest form of dislike, an intense feeling that should not be used to describe someone lightly. I can't see any reason why Snape could feel actual hate towards any of the Marauders, I think that he dislikes them, but I believe that hate is too strong of a word to use. That's just using my perception of hate though, others may view hate as a more mild thing then I do.
You can't see any reason for Snape to hate the Marauders? What about Snape's Worst Memory. He was publicly humiliated.

You can't see any reason for Snape to hate the Marauders? What about Snape's Worst Memory. He was publicly humiliated.
Nope, I don't see a reason for him to hate them, I can understand disliking them, but again, hate is a very strong word to me, I don't believe that I really hate anyone, and I have a better reason than Snape to hate someone, sure there's always going to be people that we dislike, but I don't like using the word hate. That's just because again that I view hate as very strong. That's just me though, I think that hate can be viewed as less serious, then I view it.

Fire in the Sky: I believe Snape might have hated James and Sirius, but I just don't think he hates Harry at this time, even after the Pensieve. I think he might dislike dealing with James' son all the time because of he resembles James. But I agree that hate is too strong a word for his feelings toward Harry. I do think he is irritated, sometimes upset, suspicious, and sometimes in awe of Harry's audacity as he breaks every rule in the book, lol.

Did any of you see the Dr. Phil McGraw show in the U.S. today? For those in other countries, it is a psychology talk show. I was waiting for the news to come on and happened to see part of it. It was all about bullies and ways to deal with them - awesome! I was so impressed with Dr. Phil's philosophy, I went to his website and couldn't believe how much he has there about this subject. His son was on the show, and he's written a book called "Life Strategies for Teens." He seemed to be a huge advocate for the victims.

On each page there is a link under the picture of the child involved. I was worried that you needed a media player to look at these, and mine doesn't work well, but they are all actually slide shows with the written dialogue from the show - like a mini transcript. I promise you, those who are interested in this topic will love reading all these stories and what Dr. Phil says about them.

This is alot of reading, but I thought I'd post direct links for those who are interested:

Today's Show:
http://www.drphil.com/show/show.jhtml?contentId=3143_cyberbullies.xml

How to start an anti-bullying campaign at your school:
http://www.drphil.com/show/show.jhtml?contentId=1107_bullies.xml&section=&subsection=

Big Bad Bullies:
http://www.drphil.com/show/show.jhtml?contentId=2122_badbullies.xml

The Dark Side of Teens:
http://www.drphil.com/show/show.jhtml?contentId=2056_darkteens.xml&section=&subsection=

Helping Teens Survive Teenage Cattiness:
http://www.drphil.com/advice/advice.jhtml?contentId=2134_parentscreatehealthyda ughter.xml&section=Parenting&subsection=Pre-Teens/Teens

Teens: How to Deal with Disagreements:
http://www.drphil.com/advice/advice.jhtml?contentId=2134_sealtool.xml&section=Parenting&subsection=Pre-Teens/Teens

Here are some quotes dealing with bystanders. I'm not focusing just on Lupin by posting this.. The more I think about it, the more Lupin's actions seem to be the norm, since no one else from the large crowd stepped forward either. It really makes him more average than distinctive, although he had the added reason of group loyalty to keep him from stepping up to the plate.

From Today's Show:
Jay McGraw addresses Mark (victim of bullying)
"I'm really, really proud of you and think that you're really, really brave, because you go into that school every day and face these people that are pushing you, kicking you, hitting you, saying bad things about you," Jay says. "It's a horrible existence, but yet it happened to one of your friends and you stood up for him, and it made it worse for you. That is what it is important for me, because I don't think that there is anybody that's involved in this that is innocent, except for you. Because if they stand there and they don't do anything about you being bullied ... if they don't stop the person that's doing it, I think they're just as guilty as the person that's doing it." Jay says that Mark is one of the first kids he has met to stand up to the bullies. "That took a lot of courage and I'm really proud of you for that."


http://www.drphil.com/advice/advice.jhtml?contentId=par_bully_1047.xml&section=Parenting&subsection=Raising+Kids

Advice for teachers:
If one child is getting bullied, it needs to be everybody's business. Instill a value system in the classroom and on the playground that someone who sits silently and watches a bully is as guilty as the bully himself. Keep a spirit of inclusion — and enforce it.

Interesting Story about a victim who became a bully:
http://www.drphil.com/slideshow/slide.jhtml?contentId=2122_bigbadbullies4.xml&start=1

Interesting Story of "Tiffany," a bully who says, "I pick on weaker kids because I think it's funny," she says.
http://www.drphil.com/slideshow/slide.jhtml?contentId=1107_bullies.xml

Note: I removed the link to the discussion of "Mean Girls" because I coudn't get any of the slideshows to work - sorry about that.

I'm starting to wince whenever I see the word "hate" between Snape and Harry, because deep down I don't think Snape hates him, anymore than Harry really hates back.You're right, "hate" is too strong a word for what Snape feels toward Harry. It's more like dislike mixed with contempt, loathing*, disappointment and ire. Like FireInTheSky said, I have used the word “hate” when I really should have used “dislike” or “loathe”. These words convey something a bit more complex and nuanced than "hate". Though I do believe that Snape does hate James and Sirius- what they did to him was terrible, and Snape has shown that he harbors feelings of intense hostility toward them (which is closer to the definition of hatred than anything else). But with Harry (and Lupin as well), I don’t believe Snape’s feelings can be categorized as hatred, even though Harry describes Snape as hating him at times. Snape's feelings toward Harry and Lupin are more along the lines of loathing*, rather than hatred.

*In the Dev of Sev thread, subtle science pointed out that loathing means “to dislike greatly and often with disgust or intolerance; loathe implies utter disgust and intolerance”. So this isn’t quite as strong as hatred, but it’s still a feeling of dislike.

I agree, RemusLupinFan--The distinctions are fine...but the reason the various definitions exist to begin with is that there are fine distinctions in the emotions.

Harry's use of the word hate to describe how he thinks Snape regards him isn't reliable--Harry isn't one of the characters in the novels who chooses his words carefully, for one thing; second, it's very 'in-character' for him as a student to use the phrasing (The old standby of 'My teacher hates me'--it can cover anything from the teacher's actually not liking the student to outrageous behavior on the part of the teacher, such as telling the student to stop passing notes in class!!!!).

Snape's behavior on day one of potions class strongly indicates contempt for Harry is the more accurate description: he's targeting Harry's utter ignorance of the wizarding world, 'proving' that Harry did nothing to warrant his status as "our new celebrity." As the novels progress, I think Snape's attitude also progresses (or, perhaps "declines" would be a better word choice)--as he gets to know Harry more, he finds more to dislike in the boy, as what Snape comes to know is the outside appearance: Harry's arrogant disregard for any and all school rules, his spats with other students, his loathing of Snape.

I don't think the latter can be overlooked--throughout PS/SS, Harry is strident in his suspicions of Snape, even when he's told not to suspect Snape; he voices his low opinion frequently...and, post-OotP, we know that Snape can, in fact, sense what Harry is thinking. It's rather interesting to look back at the events of PS/SS with that in mind, realizing that Snape finds himself facing another Potter who is judging him. (disclaimer: Please note that I am not saying this to excuse Snape somehow--just to point out it's another small piece of the jigsaw puzzle of the character relationships.)

As for James and Sirius...Well, with James, we rather have to take other characters' word for it--they all say that Snape really hated James, but, as I've said before, I really am stunned by the idea that Snape's attitude could be any more venomous toward James than it is toward Sirius. SWM is really the only scene we see that supports this; further details need to follow in order for a clearer picture of James to emerge. But--without a doubt--Snape hates Sirius. I can't see any other word to capture the sense of his attitude. There's not only the mutual contempt, but clearly they intend hostility toward each other. One need only look at the difference between Snape's behavior toward Lupin when he delivers the Wolfsbane Potion in PoA...and any scene between Snape and Sirius. The only indication of any civilized behavior comes from Dumbledore, in "The Lost Prophecy," when he describes Snape's contacting of Sirius at 12GP; Dumbledore says that Snape "requested...as he needed" (p. 830, US hardcover) (--and Dumbledore is one of the characters who selects his words carefully). In three books, that's the only instance I can think of where there is even the hint of a civil exchange between the two (I don't count the forced handshake in GoF, which neither wants). Everything else points to pure hatred.

Harry's use of the word hate to describe how he thinks Snape regards him isn't reliable--Harry isn't one of the characters in the novels who chooses his words carefully, for one thing; second, it's very 'in-character' for him as a student to use the phrasing
That, I completely agree.
Just found this from the dictionary...

1. To feel hostility or animosity toward.
2. To detest.
3. To feel dislike or distaste
From this, literally harry hates snape. As RemusLupinFan said "dislike mixed with contempt, loathing" describes harry's feelings towards Snape. But "hate" or "hatred" is a word that intensifies the meaning of dislike, or distaste, and makes it almost look as if the person has just one feeling for the other.

What can also be seen in the books is the fact that harry wants to find faults with snape, he wants to believe that snape is bad, and in a way wants to hate him. I am unable to explain here, but from the beginning he has heard and seen snape as bad, and just goes on intensifying this by believing (probably) wrong things about Snape. In SS we see that he thinks snape is the "wrong one" but is proven wrong. But from then on, and even then he continues to find faults, and continues to try and think of snape as the "wrong one". I hope you see what I mean....

And I completely agree with RemusLupin Fan, when it comes to loathing....

as what Snape comes to know is the outside appearance: Harry's arrogant disregard for any and all school rules, his spats with other students.

Harry's "arrogant disregard for any and all school rules" in Snape's mind, right? Harry certainly has broken a lot of school rules, but I think that it is overstating it to say that he has an arrogant disregard for all school rules.

As I said, "as Snape's attitude progresses...what he comes to know is the outward appearance."

What can also be seen in the books is the fact that harry wants to find faults with snape, he wants to believe that snape is bad, and in a way wants to hate him.

I am with you there and completely agree. It is easy to see and find in other people what you want to see (even in your self). I would even go a step further, that Snape more or less also formed his picture of Harry in this way. Allbeit as his real attitude towards him or as a cover towards anyone trying to filter his thoughts and feelings (Legilimency).

Snape's behavior on day one of potions class strongly indicates contempt for Harry is the more accurate description: he's targeting Harry's utter ignorance of the wizarding world, 'proving' that Harry did nothing to warrant his status as "our new celebrity." As the novels progress, I think Snape's attitude also progresses (or, perhaps "declines" would be a better word choice)--as he gets to know Harry more, he finds more to dislike in the boy, as what Snape comes to know is the outside appearance: Harry's arrogant disregard for any and all school rules, his spats with other students, his loathing of Snape.

I don't think the latter can be overlooked--throughout PS/SS, Harry is strident in his suspicions of Snape, even when he's told not to suspect Snape; he voices his low opinion frequently...and, post-OotP, we know that Snape can, in fact, sense what Harry is thinking. It's rather interesting to look back at the events of PS/SS with that in mind, realizing that Snape finds himself facing another Potter who is judging him. (disclaimer: Please note that I am not saying this to excuse Snape somehow--just to point out it's another small piece of the jigsaw puzzle of the character relationships.)

There is that old "mirror" thing again. Snape hurts Harry's feelings in class, so he hates Snape, and then Snape sees the hatred in his eyes and reflects it back. :huh:

And I just thought of something. In Book One, Harry sees Snape and thinks his scar is hurting because of him. What if Snape's scar is hurting because he is sitting next to Voldemort and doesn't know it? But maybe he blames the fact that Harry has entered school? So the "pain" might literally be reflected from Snape to Harry and back, and meanwhile it is really due to the presence of Voldemort?

As for James and Sirius...Well, with James, we rather have to take other characters' word for it--they all say that Snape really hated James, but, as I've said before, I really am stunned by the idea that Snape's attitude could be any more venomous toward James than it is toward Sirius. SWM is really the only scene we see that supports this; further details need to follow in order for a clearer picture of James to emerge. But--without a doubt--Snape hates Sirius. I can't see any other word to capture the sense of his attitude. There's not only the mutual contempt, but clearly they intend hostility toward each other. One need only look at the difference between Snape's behavior toward Lupin when he delivers the Wolfsbane Potion in PoA...and any scene between Snape and Sirius. The only indication of any civilized behavior comes from Dumbledore, in "The Lost Prophecy," when he describes Snape's contacting of Sirius at 12GP; Dumbledore says that Snape "requested...as he needed" (p. 830, US hardcover) (--and Dumbledore is one of the characters who selects his words carefully). In three books, that's the only instance I can think of where there is even the hint of a civil exchange between the two (I don't count the forced handshake in GoF, which neither wants). Everything else points to pure hatred.

I believe SWM shows that Sirius is the one who hated Snape the most, which is why he is the one who insults him about his greasey hair while James does most of the spellwork. James is doing it to "please" Sirius. But just why Sirius would hate Snape so much is still the unknown. What happens is that since James acts as a friendly thug in that scene, and perhaps other scenes we don't know about, then Snape begins to hate him, too. And why not?

A slightly belated thanks, silver ink pot, for supplying the links to the Dr. Phil site. It took me a while to go through the transcripts.

Quite thoroughly depressing.

I'm glad he pointed out the most recent research into bullying, which is that most of it is done by people who have self esteem that is too high--the reverse of what older theories proposed. Obviously, he couldn't go into real depth on a talk show, with its time constraints, but a discussion of the correlating research--that bullies are social enforcers, pressuring those they consider outsiders/social ruler breakers to conform to standards--would've been interesting. However, I am glad he had on the bully who laid it on the line, admitting that the bullies enjoy what they do. That, I find, is one of the biggest stumbling blocks in getting people to understand the motivations and effects of bullying--they don't want to believe that enjoyment is a primary factor in what students are choosing to do.

As I said, "as Snape's attitude progresses...what he comes to know is the outward appearance."
Did you mean for that to sound rude? Sorry, if you didn't.

Anway, I disagree that it is an accurate interpretation on Snape's part. I think that it should be obvious that Harry does follow certain rules and that much of his rule breaking stems from sources other than arrogance. Maybe fear for one. I think that it should be obvious that the following the rules doesn't always serve Harry best. The Goblet of Fire incident for one. The rules stated Harry had to compete, but it put his life in danger several times to follow that rule. If Harry had followed the rules in Chamber of Secrets, Ginny might be dead. Snape has enough information to know this, so his preformed opinions of Harry are influencing his interpretation of Harry's rule breaking.

A slightly belated thanks, silver ink pot, for supplying the links to the Dr. Phil site. It took me a while to go through the transcripts.

Quite thoroughly depressing.

I'm glad he pointed out the most recent research into bullying, which is that most of it is done by people who have self esteem that is too high--the reverse of what older theories proposed. Obviously, he couldn't go into real depth on a talk show, with its time constraints, but a discussion of the correlating research--that bullies are social enforcers, pressuring those they consider outsiders/social ruler breakers to conform to standards--would've been interesting. However, I am glad he had on the bully who laid it on the line, admitting that the bullies enjoy what they do. That, I find, is one of the biggest stumbling blocks in getting people to understand the motivations and effects of bullying--they don't want to believe that enjoyment is a primary factor in what students are choosing to do.

As I told Norbertha, I wish you could have seen the show. There was one point at which Dr. Phil looked at the boy who had been bullied and he said he was his friend and he was going to raise "he**" till someone at the school listened to him. :tu: I bet they are doing something about it now at that school!

That girl - I think it was Tiffany - she said it was "fun" to pick on weaker kids and they should "take it." I think attitudes like that are even more shocking coming from a teenage girl because of stereotypes about girls. But when you see Pansy Parkinson, Dolores Umbridge or Bella LeStrange, you realize that females can be bullies almost as bad as Voldemort.

Abak: I thought that Subtle meant that Snape doesn't understand Harry and what makes him "tick." I think he has to understand him better after Occlumency, considering how many times they went through Harry's memories. They seem to almost have them catalogued - as when Harry mentions "the one about the time my cousin made me stand in the toilet?" And Snape says, "No, not that one" - so he remembers all the things he sees in Harry's memory. It has to have some effect on him, don't you think? It's just that so much else happened at the end of OotP, not to mention that Harry betrayed his trust about the Pensieve, so that there was no resolution to that whole plot line.

Open note to JKR: Please weave together these ends before we unravel. :lol: I beg you.

Abak--I wasn't saying that Snape's view of Harry was accurate; I was simply saying that it was his view of Harry--I was considering the factors that may have contributed to the development of his dislike of Harry.


silver ink pot--Interesting thought about the presence of Voldemort at the start-of-term feast and the scar pain. I would venture that Snape wouldn't blame Harry, though--since if he felt anything, he'd recognize the sensation. But--haring off on another speculative tangent--it would certainly raise a question in Snape's mind as to what was going on ("Where'd that come from?')...which would then explain why/how he's so quick to suspect Quirrell. Nothing like a healthy dose of off-topic speculation! All I'll add, then is--Marauders! : )

ETA: Well, I'll add this, having just read your post, silver ink pot (synchronized posting, new Olympic sport). The other new research that's being done is on bullying by girls--especially against other girls; it really connects with the 'social regulator' role of bullies. Fascinating (and depressing) stuff; one of my seniors just did her Senior Project on the very topic....

I believe SWM shows that Sirius is the one who hated Snape the most, which is why he is the one who insults him about his greasey hair while James does most of the spellwork. James is doing it to "please" Sirius. But just why Sirius would hate Snape so much is still the unknown. What happens is that since James acts as a friendly thug in that scene, and perhaps other scenes we don't know about, then Snape begins to hate him, too. And why not?

Whether or not James was doing that to entertain Sirius or not, it was James who was the primary aggressor in that scene. And it is to James that Snape responds. I think the idea that Snape hated James even more than he hated Sirius is true. Whether or not it is still true, I don't know. In Snape's mind, James' actions were probably more reprehensible than Sirius', and since then? I still think something happened that we don't know about that whole situation to explain why Snape's dislike of the Marauders seems skewed. Obviously, nothing that happened after the WW incident made Snape re-evaluate his opinions, unless his hatred became more focused on Sirius than James, but that remains in question.

(Interesting about the bullying, it is a pity that these things are so often swept under the rug by parents/educators, or both. Perhaps if people were more proactive in trying to see/prevent these tendencies less children would be subjected to these humiliating and hurtful experiences)

I decided to take another look at SWM, just to check my memory (I think that works out to a pun...sorry) about the progression of events and who did what when...

Although Sirius says he's bored, it's several lines before the episode begins: first, there's the exchange between Lupin and Sirius about the full moon and studying, and then it's James who starts the events--he's the one who spies Snape and points him out to Sirius: "This'll liven you up, Padfoot...Look who it is...." (p. 645, OotP, US hardcover). It's James who first addresses Snape, using "Snivellus," of course. James casts the first spell--but it's quickly followed by Sirius' Impedimenta. Sirius then is the one who insults Snape, while James uses Scourgify--in response to the threat ("You--wait") and curses Snape is directing at him, not at Sirius. Once Lily appears on the scene, Sirius drops to the background of the events and conversation; he only points out the moment when Snape is able to retrieve his wand and retaliate--slashing James' face: again, going for James, not Sirius. James hangs Snape upside down; Sirius paralyzes him again.

Consistently throughout the scene, Snape goes after James, even though it's pretty clear that Sirius is participating equally. It's the strongest indication that Snape really did hate James far more than Sirius--he never makes a move toward Sirius. In fact, now that I've looked at the scene this way, I'm amazed at the complete lack of response to Sirius: it's as if he's not even there, from the way Snape's acting.

A really ugly aspect to the scene is the finish, when James is set to strip Snape--and the motive is clearly his anger over his rejection by Lily, as Snape has done nothing since getting to his feet after the countercurse:

"What is it with her?" said James, trying and failing to look as though this was a throwaway question of no real importance to him.
"Reading between the lines, I'd say she thinks you're a bit conceited, mate," said Sirius.
"Right," said James, who looked furious now, "right--"
There was another flash of light, and Snape was once again hanging upside down in the air.
"Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants?" (p. 649)

Talk about displacement of anger...! Seriously, though--that's fairly important insight into James' character: he's using Snape as the punching bag for his frustration over Lily's "You make me SICK" (p. 648). Something makes him think/believe that this is okay--this is his acceptable (to himself) outlet for being thwarted and criticized by Lily. Which is pretty revolting.

Wow--do we need information in HBP to explain the complete 180 degree change by the time James saves Snape's life and he goes on to marry Lily and defy Voldemort! Or what seems to be that much of a change...really, we don't even have solid evidence of that yet...only those bare facts I've just listed; nothing that actually tells us the character development.

subtle science- I certainly agree that Harry isn't really one to choose his words carefully, and that when he says he "hates" Snape, he may really mean he dislikes or loathes him with all of the nuances that go along with that. Though, we really don't know this for sure- Harry really may hate Snape, but since this is such a strong word, I prefer to think it is intense dislike and anger that Harry feels toward Snape.

Snape's behavior on day one of potions class strongly indicates contempt for Harry is the more accurate description: he's targeting Harry's utter ignorance of the wizarding world, 'proving' that Harry did nothing to warrant his status as "our new celebrity." As the novels progress, I think Snape's attitude also progresses (or, perhaps "declines" would be a better word choice)--as he gets to know Harry more, he finds more to dislike in the boy, as what Snape comes to know is the outside appearance: Harry's arrogant disregard for any and all school rules, his spats with other students, his loathing of Snape.:tu: I agree completely.

But--without a doubt--Snape hates Sirius. I can't see any other word to capture the sense of his attitude. There's not only the mutual contempt, but clearly they intend hostility toward each other. One need only look at the difference between Snape's behavior toward Lupin when he delivers the Wolfsbane Potion in PoA...and any scene between Snape and Sirius.Again, I agree. :)

just why Sirius would hate Snape so much is still the unknown.Very simply, I think that Sirius hates Snape so much because he represents everything that Sirius has renounced along with his family. In OotP, he calls Snape an "oddball", which implies that Snape (at least in Sirius's view) was a bit of an outcast. Now what's interesting is that Sirius himself is an outcast- to put it simply, he is a Gryffindor who comes from a Slytherin family. Therefore, I believe that at the heart of the reason Sirius (and James) disliked Snape right off the bat was because he was a "shady character", someone who came from a Slytherin background- which Sirius would have instantly disliked because it represented the kind of background he himself had. We know how much Sirius hated his family and his family's ideals. So there must have been something about Snape that distinguished him from just being an "oddball" to being someone who represented the ideals that Sirius had renounced with his family. If Sirius saw Snape as someone who represented everything he had been rebelling against, this would certainly explain the intense animosity that Sirius felt toward Snape.

Abak--I wasn't saying that Snape's view of Harry was accurate; I was simply saying that it was his view of Harry--I was considering the factors that may have contributed to the development of his dislike of Harry.I think this is kind of analogous to Harry not thinking about the times where Snape has saved his life. In the same way, Snape doesn’t perceive all of the times when Harry actually follows the rules or breaks the rules for a legitimate reason (as in CoS- I agree that Ginny would have died had Harry not broken the rules). These are things that Snape just doesn’t consider or just completely disregards and ignores when he is making a generalization about Harry’s behavior and character traits. This is indeed an example of Snape’s skewed view of Harry, and it is further testimony to the way Snape overlooks some of Harry's actions so that they will fit the perception of Harry that Snape wants to have, namely the one that resembles James as much as possible.

Consistently throughout the scene, Snape goes after James, even though it's pretty clear that Sirius is participating equally. It's the strongest indication that Snape really did hate James far more than Sirius--he never makes a move toward Sirius. In fact, now that I've looked at the scene this way, I'm amazed at the complete lack of response to Sirius: it's as if he's not even there, from the way Snape's acting.This is indeed very odd, and I think perhaps we're missing a piece of the puzzle here. It's almost like Sirius is presenting himself as a target for Snape's wrath, but Snape doesn't take the bait :huh: (though that's not to say that Sirius's reasons for taunting Snape are so that he'll retaliate).

Wow, Subtle! Displaced anger - interesting! :huh:

My first impression of your excellent analysis is that James is the one with the behavior problem, more than Sirius or Snape.

What is eerie to me is that he says, "Right, right," in the same way that Harry does when he is tense. I'll look for some examples, but I've always thought James sounded like Harry at that point in the scene. However, we've never seen Harry lash out in his frustration in any way except verbally.

James understanding of the situation leads him to lash out even stronger at Snape - displaced anger! But his reaction is to instantly do something even more aggressive and humiliating to Snape - he escalates the violence. In effect, he is blaming Snape for Lily's rejection instead of realizing that it was his own actions that Lily was criticizing. He blames Snape instead of taking responsibility. Hmmmm.

So what does James want from Lily in that scene? Clearly he wants her admiration. He is looking at her and trying to sound mature. He wants her to think he is "cool" for attacking a weird kid, and when she responds in the opposite direction, it shakes up his self-image, I think.

That is the whole point of Peter's admiration in that scene, isn't it? Peter is in awe of James and James seems to enjoy the limelight.

But it is a flaw in James that keeps him from seeing why Lily wouldn't like his actions. I've always said that I didn't like the way James talks to Lily in that scene, as though he is trying to win her over in spite of her clear disagreement with what he is doing. He makes light of it, and even though he stops it at one point, he goes right back to Snape when Lily is gone, so she hasn't really changed anything.

Isn't Harry showing displaced anger in Dumbledore's Office when he tears up the place and then thinks that he would never, ever forgive Snape for what happened to Sirius? If they don't work it out, it will be James going after Snape all over again, which is what Snape seems to have been expecting all along.

RemusLupinFan--Exactly, about...um...well--all of it, actually. : ) !!

But, specifically--yes, Harry and Snape are perfectly mirrored in their insistence upon seeing each other in a skewed fashion. Neither is an idiot (hardly!), but they each steadfastly refuse to see the plain truth about the other that is right in front of them. Which, therefore, makes the reader want to scream.

Your comment about Sirius' baiting Snape made me realize something else: that his insults are extremely personal. He twice refers to Snape's nose and grease (p. 646). James' opening gambits are feeble in contrast: "All right, Snivellus?" (p. 645) and "How'd the exam go, Snivelly?" (p. 646). Sirius' hatred is deep and on a personal level; I think that's the key. While there's still an enormous chunk of why missing (I think your ideas about the Dark oddball are valid), I think that key gives us a connection to the Willow Incident. Setting Snape up for severe injury or death is also quite a personal attack; James' hanging in air and stripping of Snape was actually a psychological attack, even though it took physical form--he went for public humiliation.

Not to get repetitious here--I know we've just had the recent discussion of Sirius' intent in setting Snape up; I've always leaned toward the idea that Sirius did intend harm, based on my belief that Sirius is far too intelligent, despite his rashness, not to see the probable consequences for Snape (*aside: I think it's his rashness that makes him not realize the consequences to Lupin). But seeing this personal verbal attack in SWM makes me even more inclined to believe that Sirius meant personal harm to Snape--it fits.

Now, what drives me crazy is...WHY?WHY?WHY?

Quote from subtle science:
Wow--do we need information in HBP to explain the complete 180 degree change by the time James saves Snape's life and he goes on to marry Lily and defy Voldemort! Or what seems to be that much of a change...really, we don't even have solid evidence of that yet...only those bare facts I've just listed; nothing that actually tells us the character development.
I once heard a theory about Harry and why he rescues people (ie. Ginny in CoS and the captives in GoF). The idea was that Harry doesn't so much identify with the person as with not letting them die. During the length of CoS Harry rarely talks to Ginny, he doesn't even seek her out after he tries to talk to him but when she's taken to the Chamber he springs into action. I'm not saying that Harry is a shallow, glory seeker it's just he places a lot of importance on the life of a person rather then on the person. Doesn't he say in one book that he wouldn't finish that on everyone except maybe Malfoy or Snape? (implying he doesn’t really wish it on even his most hated foes)

Could it be that James had the same problem? He doesn't care for Snape as a person but when Snape's life is in danger he rushes to save him. He "dislikes strongly" the person of Snape but will not allow the life of Snape to be ended.

Quote from subtle science:
Talk about displacement of anger...! Seriously, though--that's fairly important insight into James' character: he's using Snape as the punching bag for his frustration over Lily's "You make me SICK" (p. 648). Something makes him think/believe that this is okay--this is his acceptable (to himself) outlet for being thwarted and criticized by Lily. Which is pretty revolting.
Silver Ink Pot beat me to it but I was going to point out the Harry and indeed most of the characters displace anger at some point in the books (doesn't Molly get rather short with people after having to deal with the twins? :p ). Still what James does is pretty extreme.

Quote from subtle science:
Your comment about Sirius' baiting Snape made me realize something else: that his insults are extremely personal. He twice refers to Snape's nose and grease (p. 646). James' opening gambits are feeble in contrast: "All right, Snivellus?" (p. 645) and "How'd the exam go, Snivelly?" (p. 646). Sirius' hatred is deep and on a personal level; I think that's the key. While there's still an enormous chunk of why missing (I think your ideas about the Dark oddball are valid), I think that key gives us a connection to the Willow Incident. Setting Snape up for severe injury or death is also quite a personal attack; James' hanging in air and stripping of Snape was actually a psychological attack, even though it took physical form--he went for public humiliation.
That is really odd. Could it be that the present day Snape hates Sirius so much because he had realized that Sirius played a much bigger part in his torture the he once thought? All Sirius would have to do to get James to dislike Snape is point out the Snape is a fan of the Dark Arts and watch it snowball.

Wow--do we need information in HBP to explain the complete 180 degree change by the time James saves Snape's life and he goes on to marry Lily and defy Voldemort! Or what seems to be that much of a change...really, we don't even have solid evidence of that yet...only those bare facts I've just listed; nothing that actually tells us the character development.
I think that you're right, we're missing something big, that hopefully JKR will be explaining to us. The only thing that I can come up with is that I don't believe that James was really a cruel person, I think he was as Sirius and Harry so rightfully put "a bit of an idiot" (OotP US Hardback pg 670) but I don't believe that he really would want Snape dead, or taunted and tortured Snape, but I have trouble believing that he could take it so far as to want to endanger Snape's life. A little bit of a biased quote since it comes from Sirius in reference to James, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway, "'Look,' he said, 'your father was the best friend I ever had, and he was a good person. A lot of people are idiots at the age of fifteen. He grew out of it.'" (OotP US Hardback pg 671)

Another person that had a huge change was Lily, I know that Sirius and Remus said that she goes out with him once he "had deflated his head a bit." and when he "stopped hexing people for the fun of it." (OotP US Hardback pg 671.) But how great would James' change have had to be for Lily to go from what Harry precieved as having "clearly loathed James" (OotP US Hardback pg 653) to marrying him. To me that would have had to have been a very significant change.

Very simply, I think that Sirius hates Snape so much because he represents everything that Sirius has renounced along with his family. In OotP, he calls Snape an "oddball", which implies that Snape (at least in Sirius's view) was a bit of an outcast. Now what's interesting is that Sirius himself is an outcast- to put it simply, he is a Gryffindor who comes from a Slytherin family. Therefore, I believe that at the heart of the reason Sirius (and James) disliked Snape right off the bat was because he was a "shady character", someone who came from a Slytherin background- which Sirius would have instantly disliked because it represented the kind of background he himself had. We know how much Sirius hated his family and his family's ideals. So there must have been something about Snape that distinguished him from just being an "oddball" to being someone who represented the ideals that Sirius had renounced with his family. If Sirius saw Snape as someone who represented everything he had been rebelling against, this would certainly explain the intense animosity that Sirius felt toward Snape.

Beautifully put, I agree completely, going along with that I believe that Sirius hates Snape for the same reasons as he said James did, "And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James- whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry,- always hated the Dark Arts." (OotP US Hardback pg 670.) I had never thought about the fact that you brought up about his family though, it makes complete sense.


A really ugly aspect to the scene is the finish, when James is set to strip Snape--and the motive is clearly his anger over his rejection by Lily, as Snape has done nothing since getting to his feet after the countercurse:

"What is it with her?" said James, trying and failing to look as though this was a throwaway question of no real importance to him.
"Reading between the lines, I'd say she thinks you're a bit conceited, mate," said Sirius.
"Right," said James, who looked furious now, "right--"
There was another flash of light, and Snape was once again hanging upside down in the air.
"Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants?" (p. 649)

Talk about displacement of anger...! Seriously, though--that's fairly important insight into James' character: he's using Snape as the punching bag for his frustration over Lily's "You make me SICK" (p. 648). Something makes him think/believe that this is okay--this is his acceptable (to himself) outlet for being thwarted and criticized by Lily. Which is pretty revolting.

Another interesting idea that I hadn't thought of, but agree with, although even before that I also believe that a lot of the incident had to do with Lily, only showing off for her. "'And,' said Harry doggedly, determined to say everything that was on his mind now he was here, 'he kept looking over at the girls by the lake, hoping they were watching him!'

'Oh, well, he always made a fool of himself whenever Lily was around,' said Sirius, shrugging. 'He couldn't stop himself showing off whenever he got near her.'" (OotP US Hardback pg 671)

EDIT: As a side note something that I realized, I like how Harry uses the word "doggedly" when speaking with Sirius. ;)

The only thing that I can come up with is that I don't believe that James was really a cruel person, I think he was as Sirius and Harry so rightfully put "a bit of an idiot" (OotP US Hardback pg 670) but I don't believe that he really would want Snape dead, or taunted and tortured Snape, but I have trouble believing that he could take it so far as to want to endanger Snape's life.
I agree. However, I do think that his interest for Lily is what initially triggered James' complete change in himself. My theory: once James had reached his Seventh Year, he began to realize his nonchalant bullying and attitude and Lily had finally gotten to him, maybe even wanted to impress or go out with her, had he changed himself. Whence James had changed himself, had Lily noticed that he had put an effort to change himself and she became attracted to it. Hopefully JKRowling gives us a bit more insight on the topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan
Very simply, I think that Sirius hates Snape so much because he represents everything that Sirius has renounced along with his family. In OotP, he calls Snape an "oddball", which implies that Snape (at least in Sirius's view) was a bit of an outcast. Now what's interesting is that Sirius himself is an outcast- to put it simply, he is a Gryffindor who comes from a Slytherin family. Therefore, I believe that at the heart of the reason Sirius (and James) disliked Snape right off the bat was because he was a "shady character", someone who came from a Slytherin background- which Sirius would have instantly disliked because it represented the kind of background he himself had. We know how much Sirius hated his family and his family's ideals. So there must have been something about Snape that distinguished him from just being an "oddball" to being someone who represented the ideals that Sirius had renounced with his family. If Sirius saw Snape as someone who represented everything he had been rebelling against, this would certainly explain the intense animosity that Sirius felt toward Snape.

Beautifully put, I agree completely, going along with that I believe that Sirius hates Snape for the same reasons as he said James did, "And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James- whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry,- always hated the Dark Arts." (OotP US Hardback pg 670.) I had never thought about the fact that you brought up about his family though, it makes complete sense.

Well this is interesting. I find I just can't agree with either one of you, though I realize you are basing your opinions on the canon - especially the words of Sirius Black.

But I think Sirius is deceptive - he's such a sympathetic character due to his crazy parents who followed Voldemort and his loyalty to his friends and Harry, but that has nothing to do with the way he attacks Snape. The two ideas have no connection.

Sirius isn't attacking what Snape represents, nor does he seem to have anything specific to say about something Snape has "done." If he really were attacking Snape because he "hates the Dark Arts," then it might make sense. But look at what he says:

"I was watching him, his nose was touching the parchment," said Sirius viciously. "There'll be great grease marks all over it, they won't be able to read a word."

(Snape says, "you wait . . . ")

"Wait for what?" said Sirius coolly. "What're you going to do, Snivelly, wipe your nose on us?"

(Snape swears and James says "scourgify." Lily intervenes and Sirius clams up, as subtle science pointed out before.)

I just can't see this as an "idealistic" fight about the Dark Arts or about the sad home life of Sirius Black. It seems mainly to be about Snape's appearance, which lowers it to a petty level of common variety bullying. In GoF, Sirius refers again to Snape's appearance, his hair and his nose. The feud seems to have nothing to do with anything Snape has done. Even being a "little oddball" could be more of a reference to appearance and less about actions.

Since Sirius is always described as dark and handsome, I find it incredibly cruel and distasteful that Sirius attacks Snape for his appearance - it also seems lame, as if he couldn't think of anything worse to say about Snape, you know?

If Snape were really this darkly evil kid, who represented everything Sirius hated in his family, why did Sirius have to resort to such simplistic, yet archetypally hurtful, remarks about Snape's hair and nose?

Isn't it just as likely, though, that his dislike is motivated by hatred of the dark arts, but that he just uses whatever ammo he has to manifest his dislike?

Well this is interesting. I find I just can't agree with either one of you, though I realize you are basing your opinions on the canon - especially the words of Sirius Black.

But I think Sirius is deceptive - he's such a sympathetic character due to his crazy parents who followed Voldemort and his loyalty to his friends and Harry, but that has nothing to do with the way he attacks Snape. The two ideas have no connection.

Sirius isn't attacking what Snape represents, nor does he seem to have anything specific to say about something Snape has "done." If he really were attacking Snape because he "hates the Dark Arts," then it might make sense. But look at what he says:

"I was watching him, his nose was touching the parchment," said Sirius viciously. "There'll be great grease marks all over it, they won't be able to read a word."

(Snape says, "you wait . . . ")

"Wait for what?" said Sirius coolly. "What're you going to do, Snivelly, wipe your nose on us?"

(Snape swears and James says "scourgify." Lily intervenes and Sirius clams up, as subtle science pointed out before.)

I just can't see this as an "idealistic" fight about the Dark Arts or about the sad home life of Sirius Black. It seems mainly to be about Snape's appearance, which lowers it to a petty level of common variety bullying. In GoF, Sirius refers again to Snape's appearance, his hair and his nose. The feud seems to have nothing to do with anything Snape has done. Even being a "little oddball" could be more of a reference to appearance and less about actions.

Since Sirius is always described as dark and handsome, I find it incredibly cruel and distasteful that Sirius attacks Snape for his appearance - it also seems lame, as if he couldn't think of anything worse to say about Snape, you know?

If Snape were really this darkly evil kid, who represented everything Sirius hated in his family, why did Sirius have to resort to such simplistic, yet archetypally hurtful, remarks about Snape's hair and nose?

Interesting, I loved reading your point of view, it was very well stated and you supported it well. :tu: I will agree with your point that Sirius' usual attacks on Snape weren't fighting against the Dark Arts. I'll clarify what I said earlier though, I think that Sirius' initial reason for hating (yes I've decided to start using that word to describe their relationships again) Snape is that he's so into the Dark Arts, and they just kept up their rivalry, and their hate grew from there, I don't believe that Sirius always attacked Snape for his interest in the Dark Arts, because you're right, the appearance comments don't seem to be an attack on the Dark Arts, but rather a personal attack on Snape, a way of bullying him.

Abak: Do you mean that because Sirius hates the Dark Arts and sees Snape as "up to his eyeballs" in dark magic, therefore he taunts him about his hair and his nose?

That is interesting, because that is similar to Harry taunting Dudley about his weight, and it is similar to Dudley making fun of Harry's nightmares about Cedric. Either way, it just doesn't rise to the "idealistic" level. It is just schoolyard bullying.

I just found this article about a girl who is sueing her school in Aberdeen, Scotland, because she was physically attacked by other students and teased about her red hair:

http://www.sundayherald.com/49022

Sunday Herald - 10 April 2005
Teacher’s ‘ignore bullies’ advice secretly taped
By Senay Boztas, Arts Correspondent

. . . King is suing her local education authority because she believes it “failed in its duty” of care. She claims her victimisation, from the age of six and at four different schools, was not stopped. With more than 700 alleged incidents, she is claiming £20,000 for the psychological trauma – which includes “suicidal” feelings – she says she endured.

She and her family described an incident in which they say bullies broke her nose and lined up to spit in her face. Theft, cursing and death threats are also alleged.

Natalie’s father, Doug King, said that her stories were so unbelievable that he bought recording equipment to make her provide proof of the torture.

“We taped this for our own benefit – we didn’t know that legal action would be coming along,” he said. “It had occurred to us [King and his wife, Jacqui], ‘I wonder if it’s Natalie’, because you get kids who are seeking attention. There was one way to find out.

“We bought some digital surveillance equipment and put Natalie into school, not necessarily to catch the school out, but to see if she was a liar. We fully expected the tapes to show that perhaps Natalie was exaggerating – I got the shock of my life: she was underestimating.”

The tape that particularly shocked him – to be broadcast tonight with voice distortion to protect identities – was allegedly recorded at Dyce Academy, where Natalie spent three months in 2001, as she turned 13.

A voice, alleged to be a teacher, is heard saying: “Do you think that ignoring these situations … would help?”

The voice continues: “Well, I think that might help. Because I think the people who never have any problem with other people are the people who come to me and say ‘You know, so-and-so’s done something’ to them, and then they don’t do anything back. And then eventually it just dies down.”

Natalie is heard saying that she cannot ignore being kicked in the shins and punched. The voice responds: “Don’t say anything and do nothing.”

For the Panorama show, Mike Taylor, headteacher of Dyce Academy, was confronted with the allegation that one of his staff told Natalie to do nothing. He said: “I find it very hard to believe. I don’t know what people said, but I find it very hard to believe that someone would say that.”

Taylor and lawyer Crawford Langley, representing the council, denied to Panorama that any bullying occurred.

But Natalie, now living with her parents in Newmachar and working at a local office, argues that her torment was so bad she had no choice but to pursue legal action.

“We tried everything, tried with the school to get it sorted out, but nothing seemed to work,” she said. “A psychologist that I was seeing suggested contacting [lawyer] Cameron Fyfe .

“I wasn’t keen, but when someone explained it, I thought it might be the final solution, and if I win, it will help a lot of people like me. It can’t really get much harder, as it has affected my social life, the way I live, places I go – there’s no getting away from it.”

She said that the bullying began with a petty friendship squabble but that her red hair, weight, and even breast size became targets for abuse.

~~~More at the Link~~~

Quote from FireInTheSky:
I think that you're right, we're missing something big, that hopefully JKR will be explaining to us. The only thing that I can come up with is that I don't believe that James was really a cruel person, I think he was as Sirius and Harry so rightfully put "a bit of an idiot" (OotP US Hardback pg 670) but I don't believe that he really would want Snape dead, or taunted and tortured Snape, but I have trouble believing that he could take it so far as to want to endanger Snape's life. A little bit of a biased quote since it comes from Sirius in reference to James, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway, "'Look,' he said, 'your father was the best friend I ever had, and he was a good person. A lot of people are idiots at the age of fifteen. He grew out of it.'" (OotP US Hardback pg 671)
Quote from runitzandrew:
I agree. However, I do think that his interest for Lily is what initially triggered James' complete change in himself. My theory: once James had reached his Seventh Year, he began to realize his nonchalant bullying and attitude and Lily had finally gotten to him, maybe even wanted to impress or go out with her, had he changed himself. Whence James had changed himself, had Lily noticed that he had put an effort to change himself and she became attracted to it. Hopefully JKRowling gives us a bit more insight on the topic.
Ever since I've been following this thread (which is a long time) I've noticed that people tend to assume that James needed to undergo a huge transformation. I don't think that he really needed that big of a transformation. Compare James to Ron or Harry in Goblet of Fire when Fake Moody bounces Malfoy the amazing ferret...Ron describes it as the happiest moment of his life and Harry laughs along (only Hermione questions what happened). I realize that this isn't the best comparison but it shows that there is evidence that Harry and Ron are believes in "poetic" justice so to speak. With the James/Snape conflict I think we see this taken to the extreme.

People wonder how the adult James could have sacrificed himself for his family if he was so cruel. But that happens all the time...and by the nature of a bully he sees his victim as an outsider. So dying for his family would be protecting an ideal (the normalness of his family) that he believed in. What's more the conflict with Snape didn't die down because of Lily we know for a fact that James concealed it from her. As for the hexing people in the halls I'm not sure about that...we have only the word of Lily who (by not knowing of James's continuing feud) isn't the most reliable source. For all we know that could just have been a joke between a group of Gryffindor guys that Lily misinterpreted (remember James was a jock and groups of jocks can do some weird stuff and consider it bonding).

If you consider the respect that James's gets from most people I believe the biggest factor in his change didn't occur because of any action (although the Willow incident could have accelerated the process and reminded James that Sirius was a loose cannon). He simply had better things to do then torment Snape. With Lily going out with him I'm sure he didn't have as much time to himself to hunt Snape. Remember SWM occurred because of boredom…if James had something to do with his time maybe he didn’t feel as much of an urge to seek out Snape. Also by the start of 7th year the torment had to be decreasing on Snape…James simply couldn’t publicly humiliate Snape without wind of it reaching Lily and judging by the way James plays the crowd in SWM the limelight was a large part of the reason for torment poor Snape.

Silver Ink Pot: Excellent post on Sirius! I agree with you. Perhaps the nature of the dislike/hatred between James/Snape and Sirius/Snape were different? Snape and Sirius seem to go at each other with personal attacks questioning the very person themselves. With James on the other hand the attacks by Snape seem more on his manner or actions (I don’t get the feel of the same personal pettiness that seems to infuse Snape/Sirius). He attacks James’s arrogance, his respect, or lack there of, for the rules, his abilities on the Quidditch pitch but whereas Snape/Sirius seems to be personal James/Snape seems almost an ideological disagreement (they hate each other on principal) which then branched into their lives.

Ever since I've been following this thread (which is a long time) I've noticed that people tend to assume that James needed to undergo a huge transformation. I don't think that he really needed that big of a transformation. Compare James to Ron or Harry in Goblet of Fire when Fake Moody bounces Malfoy the amazing ferret...Ron describes it as the happiest moment of his life and Harry laughs along (only Hermione questions what happened). I realize that this isn't the best comparison but it shows that there is evidence that Harry and Ron are believes in "poetic" justice so to speak. With the James/Snape conflict I think we see this taken to the extreme.

Well, the way that I see it is that in your example, Harry and Ron are more similar to Lupin, where they didn't take part in the bullying, but didn't do anything to stop it, although, I believe that they are a little harsher than Lupin because they enjoyed that occuring to Malfoy, while Lupin, sometimes made James and Sirius feel ashamed.

As for the hexing people in the halls I'm not sure about that...we have only the word of Lily who (by not knowing of James's continuing feud) isn't the most reliable source. For all we know that could just have been a joke between a group of Gryffindor guys that Lily misinterpreted (remember James was a jock and groups of jocks can do some weird stuff and consider it bonding).
Well, on page 671 of OotP US hardback edition, Lupin said while talking about when James started going out with Lily, in response to Sirius talking about James' head deflating, "And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it" so to me I don't know about hallways, but it seems like James did hex people for no reason.
Also by the start of 7th year the torment had to be decreasing on Snape…James simply couldn’t publicly humiliate Snape without wind of it reaching Lily and judging by the way James plays the crowd in SWM the limelight was a large part of the reason for torment poor Snape.
I think that you're right, I believe that the torment to Snape decreased, but it did still exist, "Well," said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?" (page 671 of OotP US hardback edition) So, the way I understand it is that he still continued with Snape, even though it probably died down. I also like your point about the limelight being part of the reason for him to bully Snape.

silver ink pot--Man. Talk about missing something something obvious and major. Great catch in noting the focus of Sirius' insults! For all my blathering about how personal the comments were, I never put two and two together. I think your observation just makes it more likely that the cause of the enmity between Sirius and Snape is a very personal one...and, at the point of SWM, it's more than a bit one-sided. Fascinating...it really narrows down the motivation. Although it doesn't reveal it: still, the burning question--what is the trigger that sets Sirius off?

I really hope that James did change quite a bit. I suppose that's my being (strangely) idealistic, but I do hope that what Lupin and Sirius say about James' change is true. If he didn't really alter his mind set and behavior, then it also calls into question Lily's character--and all of that is too much contradiction of previously established traits for me to accept easily.

An interesting point is the change in the role of aggressor. During SWM, Lily's description of James' "walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can" (p. 648,US hardcover) shows James in the unflattering light of general school bully, and it supports what's seen in SWM--Snape isn't doing anything to James by simply sitting and reading his exam. He just becomes a target because "he exists" and, apparently, his existence annoys James. However, in the discussion of James' post-SWM character change, Lupin's comment changes the role of the aggressor: "[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James" (p. 671). James retaliates, but it seems, according to Lupin's timeline of events, that it's Snape who's going after James.

This makes perfect sense: Snape wouldn't know anything about any internal changes going on in James' character, and he's out for the revenge he promised for what James did to him in SWM. What went on between Snape and the Marauders before SWM is hazy--far too many missing details (July 16, please?), but after is clearer: James definitely has to deal with a victim who has turned on him, and Lupin's comment makes it sound as if James is on the defensive post-SWM. He's not hexing Snape--or, apparently, anybody else in the school--for the fun of it, but in response. Lupin's version makes sense to me--especially if James was changing during this time period.

Picking up on the topic from Subtle's post:
I think you are right that James was perhaps already changing, without Snape noticing it. Add to the mix that the werewolf thing most likely happened after SWM, when Snape seems unable to understand James' motif for saving his life - he's not seeing the change James is going through in that case either. I also think Snape was changing. He, who started out as "Snivellus" - We see him earlier as a little boy who is crying in a corner while his parents shout. I think the very young Snape was a sensitive child, but he later hardened. Perhaps 6th year and 7th year Snape was more ready to fight than 5th year or younger Snape was. Adult Snape exaggerates this: He fights too much, he uses totally unnecessary pre-emptive strikes against his students (insults, I mean, not hexes). There could be a pattern where Snape gradually changes from sensitive to strike-first-to-make-sure-nobody-strikes-me-minded (he, he, new word there) while James changes from bully with a lack of empathy and desire to impress others into a more mature person of a higher moral standard, who is perhaps not so interested in attacking anymore, unless in response to the now-ready-to-strike-Snape's attacks.

Norbertha--Your assessment of Snape's evolution also makes sense to me. I see a decided difference from the bystander of SWM, absorbed in his own little nerdy world of the exam, to the 'hit hard, hit fast, hit first' mentality that develops later. That sort of change, post-SWM, could also explain Sirius' charge that Snape was always following them around, trying to get the Marauders expelled. That comment does not fit what we see in SWM, but is perfectly logical post-SWM.

To add my own two knuts to this discussion: I think there is a certain percentage of bullied kids who reach a point where they refuse to be a victim anymore. Especially those who have been told to "turn the other cheek" because the bully will quite having fun if you "ignore" them. Being bullied makes a person feel powerless and out of control. I don't think that Snape dealt well with being out of control.

Also, if Snape striking out/back coincided with James' change of heart, Snape would attribute the change to his striking back, not any change in James' general character. For what could be the first time in his life, Snape feels powerful and in control. He would also feel that it is working. So why quit? If he quits, he may find himself the "joke" once again. So Snape turning aggressor is positively reinforced.

Finally, if James' is no longer feeding Sirius' dislike of Snape by bullying him, then it would make sense for Sirius to take up the slack. Snape would still be reveling in his new found "power" so he might not have noticed. The culmination of the switch between James and Sirius as aggressor could well be the WW incident. By that point in time, Snape's hate had focused on James, who had been the primary aggressor during their school years up to that point. Snape has been unaware of James' personality change, so why would he think that James wasn't in on the joke? It would be easy to attribute James' reaction to concern for Lupin (which I'm sure factored into it), rather than concern for Snape, himself.

Snape sees the Marauders as a group with a certain heirarchy in which James is his true tormentor. He has had no reason to change that view. So, in the end, he may hate Sirius, but he still sees James as that arrogant kid who was the "ringleader" in bullying him.

(Just where my thoughts have wandered on this)

Interesting points, clkginny...and your last bit connects to previous discussions here--another little piece falling into place: Snape, at least, perceives James as the leader of the Marauders.

And I love the understatement about Snape's not dealing well with not being in control--so true!

As for the victim who has tried the 'ignore' method and finally turns...ah, memories...Just put me in mind of the day I literally turned around and slugged the bully one. He and the onlookers were so astonished that nobody bothered to report me to a teacher or a parent...............

Subtle: You are like Ralphie in A Christmas Story! :p Those other kids were grateful to you, even if they didn't say anything.

I still remember the first time I stood up to someone. I had a long schoolbus ride to and from school every day, and we were so crowded that some people had to stand up. Actually, there were enough seats, but some of the rich and popular kids would save seats for their friends who got on later. By the time I was in third grade, everything you can think of had happened to me or others on that bus. We were tripped, had gum put in our hair, had our book bags stepped on, were insulted, taunted, laughed at - and the bus driver ignored it all. I was a sheltered child who wasn't used to this mentality, but somehow I found some sort of strength within me. One day, a girl wouldn't let my sister sit down on the way to school and all of a sudden, I snapped. My anger just rose up and I stared at that girl and said in a really menacing voice that she was going to let us sit down or I was going to throw her out of the seat. Something like that, lol. :evil: That sounds like nothing to write about, but I realized I could survive after that, even though other things happened with worse bullies in middle school. I never turned into a bully, and I was still afraid of the worst ones and avoided them like the plague, but to this day I remember how empowering it was to look a bully in the eye and say "enough."

Some of the people who bullied us went to jail, but others grew up to do various things. I'll tell you one thing, though, I still wouldn't trust any of them, and when I do see them they still don't seem like the nicest people to me. Maybe I am like Snape and it is all colored by what happened in the past, but it is hard for me to believe that people can totally change like that.

No--no one was grateful; they were all friends of the bully. They were just flat out shocked. And some quit their tormenting of me, because they were afraid after that--the hobby wasn't worth the risk anymore (it was quite a punch, if I do say so myself). The others went back to the usual, but not quite so often and not quite so carefree.

I hope they all changed, for the good of whatever people they ended up being around. I, myself, have nothing but contempt for them and for all who supported them over the years.

I probably just revealed to one and all a considerable number of reasons behind the thinking in my postings.........

Quote from FireInTheSky:
Well, the way that I see it is that in your example, Harry and Ron are more similar to Lupin, where they didn't take part in the bullying, but didn't do anything to stop it, although, I believe that they are a little harsher than Lupin because they enjoyed that occuring to Malfoy, while Lupin, sometimes made James and Sirius feel ashamed.
So Harry and Ron are basically like Peter? :evil:

Quote from FireInTheSky:
Well, on page 671 of OotP US hardback edition, Lupin said while talking about when James started going out with Lily, in response to Sirius talking about James' head deflating, "And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it" so to me I don't know about hallways, but it seems like James did hex people for no reason.
But everyone just assumes the hexing in an indication of James's bullying. What I was trying to point out is that we don't know that. As an example when Fred and George tested the Canary Cream on Neville...to someone who wasn't part of the Gryffindor house or new or didn't know the people involved very well it could look at Fred and George transfigure people for no reason (they had a marketing reason :eyebrows: ). But it's mostly harmless and Neville manages to laugh it off (I'll admit that Fred and George aren't the best of people). And when Lupin says "no reason" does he mean no reason or was something mutual friends did to each other (it could be like when people hug you...which creeps me out...some girls same to have no reason for hugging people :huh: ).

Lily specifically says that James hexed anyone who annoyed him (I quoted her in an earlier post). And, as a prefect, she certainly would know about misbehavior, particularly of the Gryffindors she's supposed to monitor--just as Hermione knows perfectly well what Fred and George are up to. The characters who know James don't give any indication that they see his actions as harmless or in good fun or anything that could be construed as postive--they are talking about his faults.

*Delurking*

Now what's interesting is that Sirius himself is an outcast- to put it simply, he is a Gryffindor who comes from a Slytherin family.Just a quick question about this. Does it say anywhere that the Blacks were always in Slytherin? I looked in The Most Noble and Ancient House of Black chapter (OotP) and couldn’t find it stated. I’m wondering because of some family members Sirius mentions, his cousin, Andromeda, and his uncle, who gave him money after he ran away. Andromeda was only burned off the tapestry when she married a muggle. Sirius’s uncle was only burned off the tapestry after he gave Sirius money. If all of them, but Sirius, were in Slytherin, it shows that Slytherins aren’t all dark or pureblood maniacs. If they weren’t in Slytherin, it’s likely that other family members, of whom we haven’t heard, were also not in Slytherin. I just can't see this as an "idealistic" fight about the Dark Arts or about the sad home life of Sirius Black. It seems mainly to be about Snape's appearance, which lowers it to a petty level of common variety bullying. In GoF, Sirius refers again to Snape's appearance, his hair and his nose. The feud seems to have nothing to do with anything Snape has done.I agree. The animosity between Sirius and Snape is personal and not idealistic. If it really had to do with Sirius’s rebellion against his family, there would be more emphasis on Snape being a dark wizard—it seems like Sirius or James might have mentioned it at least once in SWM. Isn't it just as likely, though, that his dislike is motivated by hatred of the dark arts, but that he just uses whatever ammo he has to manifest his dislike?I don’t think so. It’s likely that Snape drew their attention because of his appearance and manner and they treated him as they did simply because they could. If they subsequently found out that he was “up to his eyeballs in the dark arts,” they might feel justified in giving him a hard time, but it’s not a real reason. Surely, Snape wasn’t the only student at Hogwarts during VWI to be interested in the Dark Arts? In GoF, Sirius says that Snape hung out with a lot of kids who all became Death Eaters, but, as far as he knew, Snape wasn’t a Death Eater. It seems strange to me that he would say that, if he was convinced that Snape was a dark wizard. In PoA, Sirius says that it would have served Snape right to be injured by his “prank” because Snape was following them around, etc. Sirius says nothing about the Dark Arts. It’s likely that Sirius only tells Harry that James attacked Snape because of his hatred for the Dark Arts because he wants to justify SWM to Harry. I really hope that James did change quite a bit. I suppose that's my being (strangely) idealistic, but I do hope that what Lupin and Sirius say about James' change is true. If he didn't really alter his mind set and behavior, then it also calls into question Lily's character--and all of that is too much contradiction of previously established traits for me to accept easily.Okay, I’m still on the Kohlberg model. :rolleyes: For anyone who wasn’t reading this thread when I first posted about Kohlberg, here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=2098515#post2098515) is a link to the post in which his stages of moral development were described.

I think it’s entirely possible that James didn’t change his level of moral development at all between SWM and his death. He would have to face some kind of ethical dilemma he couldn’t solve at his current level in order to move up and maybe he didn’t. James is clearly at level 3 (thinking something is morally right because others will approve of his actions) during SWM. He believes that what he is doing to Snape is moral because other students approve of it. He expects Lily to approve of it and she doesn’t. This could cause him to reconsider and move up a level, but there’s no evidence of this. As soon as Lily leaves, he goes back to tormenting Snape. His question, ”Who wants to see me take off Snivelly’s pants?” is telling. He expects the students to want him to do so. If they all booed him and said they didn’t want to see that, I’d bet he wouldn’t do it; although, he’d probably be angrier because he wanted to do it. The fact that James continues to hex Snape through 7th year, but without Lily’s knowledge, also suggests James’s stagnant moral development. It’s often argued that James must have changed for Lily, but this argument really amounts to James having changed his behavior for Lily’s sake, not his moral reasoning. Lily didn’t approve of James’s behavior, James wanted her approval, and so he changed his behavior. This is entirely level 3 moral reasoning.

Now we get to James saving Snape from Lupin in the tunnel under the Whomping Willow. It’s often assumed that James did this for some higher level of moral reasoning—because it was against the rules and he didn’t want his friends expelled (level 4—law and order) or because he felt that no one, not even Snape, should be sent to meet a werewolf (level 5). However, it’s entirely possible that James saved Snape for a level 3 reason. He could easily have done it to impress Lily. He had to something to make her reverse her opinion of him after SWM—wasn’t this the perfect opportunity?

It’s also often assumed that James must have a higher level of moral reasoning because he joined the Order and died to save his family. This isn’t necessarily the case, though. We know from Sirius that James always hated the Dark Arts—presumably everyone he cared about also hated them. James could have joined the Order because that’s what was expected of someone who was against the Dark Arts. He could have died for his family because that’s what was expected of him. What would Sirius or Dumbledore (or anyone) think of him, if he’d run from Voldemort, abandoning Lily and Harry? Those reasons are consistent with level 3 morality.

Regarding Lily falling in love with James despite his lack of moral progress, she only knew that he’d changed his behavior for the better. She didn’t necessarily know why. . . Snape sees the Marauders as a group with a certain heirarchy in which James is his true tormentor. He has had no reason to change that view. So, in the end, he may hate Sirius, but he still sees James as that arrogant kid who was the "ringleader" in bullying him.Excellent point! This would explain why Snape is always described as hating James more than Sirius.

Quote from subtle science:
Lily specifically says that James hexed anyone who annoyed him (I quoted her in an earlier post). And, as a prefect, she certainly would know about misbehavior, particularly of the Gryffindors she's supposed to monitor--just as Hermione knows perfectly well what Fred and George are up to. The characters who know James don't give any indication that they see his actions as harmless or in good fun or anything that could be construed as postive--they are talking about his faults.
But as I pointed out Lily is clearly not a perfect source of James...he manages to hide an ongoing conflict with Snape from her for at least a school year. That implies she doesn't have that good a grasp of what James is doing at Hogwarts so she could also easily misinterpret the hexing. Lupin says "no reason" he doesn't say hateful/bad/spiteful/etc (maybe I'm forgetting the passages). Remember when Umbridge is headmistress Harry describe students letting off stink bombs constantly (which in my mind is almost as bad a hexing…targeting the entire student population!). While this is bad I’m trying to point out that the hexing the Lily and Lupin refer to could be part of James’s job as chief prankster (notice it doesn’t say cursing).

Quote from Chievrefueil:
Okay, I’m still on the Kohlberg model. For anyone who wasn’t reading this thread when I first posted about Kohlberg, here is a link to the post in which his stages of moral development were described.

I think it’s entirely possible that James didn’t change his level of moral development at all between SWM and his death. He would have to face some kind of ethical dilemma he couldn’t solve at his current level in order to move up and maybe he didn’t. James is clearly at level 3 (thinking something is morally right because others will approve of his actions) during SWM. He believes that what he is doing to Snape is moral because other students approve of it. He expects Lily to approve of it and she doesn’t. This could cause him to reconsider and move up a level, but there’s no evidence of this. As soon as Lily leaves, he goes back to tormenting Snape. His question, ”Who wants to see me take off Snivelly’s pants?” is telling. He expects the students to want him to do so. If they all booed him and said they didn’t want to see that, I’d bet he wouldn’t do it; although, he’d probably be angrier because he wanted to do it. The fact that James continues to hex Snape through 7th year, but without Lily’s knowledge, also suggests James’s stagnant moral development. It’s often argued that James must have changed for Lily, but this argument really amounts to James having changed his behavior for Lily’s sake, not his moral reasoning. Lily didn’t approve of James’s behavior, James wanted her approval, and so he changed his behavior. This is entirely level 3 moral reasoning.

Now we get to James saving Snape from Lupin in the tunnel under the Whomping Willow. It’s often assumed that James did this for some higher level of moral reasoning—because it was against the rules and he didn’t want his friends expelled (level 4—law and order) or because he felt that no one, not even Snape, should be sent to meet a werewolf (level 5). However, it’s entirely possible that James saved Snape for a level 3 reason. He could easily have done it to impress Lily. He had to something to make her reverse her opinion of him after SWM—wasn’t this the perfect opportunity?

It’s also often assumed that James must have a higher level of moral reasoning because he joined the Order and died to save his family. This isn’t necessarily the case, though. We know from Sirius that James always hated the Dark Arts—presumably everyone he cared about also hated them. James could have joined the Order because that’s what was expected of someone who was against the Dark Arts. He could have died for his family because that’s what was expected of him. What would Sirius or Dumbledore (or anyone) think of him, if he’d run from Voldemort, abandoning Lily and Harry? Those reasons are consistent with level 3 morality.

Regarding Lily falling in love with James despite his lack of moral progress, she only knew that he’d changed his behavior for the better. She didn’t necessarily know why. . .
Chievrefueil I think I've been trying to say that for the last 4 posts :blush: . I really don't see James as needing to change that much by the time that he dies. In fact I would say this...all he needs to do is stay away from Snape (which he doesn't manage to do but how much of that was Sirius?).

Regarding Lily falling in love with James despite his lack of moral progress, she only knew that he’d changed his behavior for the better. She didn’t necessarily know why. . .

Chiev: :clap: Great post, and you bring up something that I've wondered about for a long time.

Did James lie to Lily in order to gain her good opinion? Lying could be justified in someone's reasoning under Level 3, right?

There is evidence that he did, for instance when they are talking about hexing Snape-the-special-case and Harry asks if his Mom was "all right with that." Sirius tells him she probably didn't know about it.

That is an insight into the minds of the Marauders, isn't it? If James had secrets from Lily, then they all kept his secrets from Lily, didn't they?

It reminds of times when Harry doesn't tell Hermione things because he doesn't want to upset her, or when Mr. Weasley tells the twins not to tell their mother they've been gambling, etc.

If James was "stag-nant" (did you catch your own pun? :evil: ) and stuck at level three, his reasoning would be something like this:

"I really like Lily but she is such a goody-goody - but, hey, what she doesn't know won't hurt her - a little white lie here and there never hurt anyone - we can still have our fun with little oddball Snape and Lily won't ever know it was us - what matters is that Lily thinks I've changed, and I would change except where would the fun be in that?"

I hate to say that he "fooled" or "charmed" Lily, but we have an example of the way even smart and strong women can be fooled - look at Lockhart in CoS. You know, that is another pun, too, because "hart" means "deer."

:evil: Is that a clue? :huh:

James also liked to be "looked up to" and to be the center of attention, apparently. He may have been as jealous of "Prefect Lupin" as Harry was of Ron. So another reason to lie to Lily and be more secretive was because James may have been ambitious and wanted to be Head Boy, which Hagrid confirms that he was. The only way he could have become Head Boy and still been a Marauder in Year 7 is by keeping secrets and perhaps lying, certainly level 3 traits.

James would hardly be the first character in fiction who pretends to be at a higher moral level than he actually is! My goodness, think of all the examples, from Mr. Wickham in Pride and Prejudice to Elmer Gantry to many Dickens characters.

Characters like James, if he is indeed trapped at stage 3, are a staple of all mystery stories, because to them the ends justify the means. I know some folks hate thinking of James that way, but there really are clues that he may have been willing to do anything to keep the girl and keep up appearances, instead of doing the more difficult right things - changing, telling the truth, not hexing Snape.

For instance, when Sirius makes the statement to Harry that the boy is different from James after all because James would have taken risks, he is describing James the way he knew him, and he knew him until the day he died, right? That makes me think there wasn't some big change, only perhaps the appearance of a change.

If James had stopped taking risks and gone to the law and order level (4), wouldn't Sirius or Lupin have mentioned that? Wouldn't they have said that Harry reminded them of James after he met Lily? Instead we are just told that Lily didn't know everything James did, which is totally different.

Is that anywhere near coherent?

Just a quick question about this. Does it say anywhere that the Blacks were always in Slytherin? I looked in The Most Noble and Ancient House of Black chapter (OotP) and couldn’t find it stated. I’m wondering because of some family members Sirius mentions, his cousin, Andromeda, and his uncle, who gave him money after he ran away. Andromeda was only burned off the tapestry when she married a muggle. Sirius’s uncle was only burned off the tapestry after he gave Sirius money. If all of them, but Sirius, were in Slytherin, it shows that Slytherins aren’t all dark or pureblood maniacs. If they weren’t in Slytherin, it’s likely that other family members, of whom we haven’t heard, were also not in Slytherin.No, it doesn't. I guess we always assumed it. Did we assume also that Andromeda and the uncle were not in Slytherin? I don't know, it would work either way.
I think the point of the outcast theme is that Sirius felt like an outcast, wether or not being sorted into Gryffindor was a shame in the family.

I also like your analysis of James' moral level. I'd like to agree, except it would take the hero halo off James once and for all (but that might be meant to be..).
I like it also because it fits so nicely with my idea that Sirius was the "leader" (old discussion, I know, not even sure if it was here or Dev of Sev, anymore)

I've finally decided to post here after many hours spent reading your wonderful posts and many days being hidden. I hope will not repeat the thoughts from earlier versions.

Just a quick question about this. Does it say anywhere that the Blacks were always in Slytherin? I looked in The Most Noble and Ancient House of Black chapter (OotP) and couldn’t find it stated. I’m wondering because of some family members Sirius mentions, his cousin, Andromeda, and his uncle, who gave him money after he ran away. Andromeda was only burned off the tapestry when she married a muggle. Sirius’s uncle was only burned off the tapestry after he gave Sirius money. If all of them, but Sirius, were in Slytherin, it shows that Slytherins aren’t all dark or pureblood maniacs. If they weren’t in Slytherin, it’s likely that other family members, of whom we haven’t heard, were also not in Slytherin.

I've looked for evidence literally everywhere and couldn't find any proof that Sirius was the first Black who wasn't sorted into Slytherin. I did a really thorough search, as I've allways assumed that all members of the family belonged to this house and to find something to proove it was very illuminating for me - it is a typical thing for most readers to jump to such assumptions even without any evidence in the text.

I agree. The animosity between Sirius and Snape is personal and not idealistic. If it really had to do with Sirius’s rebellion against his family, there would be more emphasis on Snape being a dark wizard—it seems like Sirius or James might have mentioned it at least once in SWM. I don’t think so. It’s likely that Snape drew their attention because of his appearance and manner and they treated him as they did simply because they could. If they subsequently found out that he was “up to his eyeballs in the dark arts,” they might feel justified in giving him a hard time, but it’s not a real reason. Surely, Snape wasn’t the only student at Hogwarts during VWI to be interested in the Dark Arts? In GoF, Sirius says that Snape hung out with a lot of kids who all became Death Eaters, but, as far as he knew, Snape wasn’t a Death Eater. It seems strange to me that he would say that, if he was convinced that Snape was a dark wizard. In PoA, Sirius says that it would have served Snape right to be injured by his “prank” because Snape was following them around, etc. Sirius says nothing about the Dark Arts. It’s likely that Sirius only tells Harry that James attacked Snape because of his hatred for the Dark Arts because he wants to justify SWM to Harry.

Can anyone be a real dark wizard at this age? In SWM all the characters are in their fifth year, but obviously the mutual hatered had to start years before. In this light, the argument that 'James hated the Dark Arts' as the excuse for bullying Snape is even weaker.

Voldemort was an authentic dark wizard when 15, as he opened the Chamber, but it can be still arguable if he needed to be very advanced in wizardry to do it. Riddle was one of the cleverest and the most powerful wizards ever and I doubt you could say the same about Severus although he seems to be good, but I doubt anyone could be that good and evil at this age. And what is more, if he really would have been, then he would have problems with staying at school as Dumbledore seems to sense Dark Arts miles away. If Snape was indeed a dark wizard, or more likely a Teenage Mutant Nin...erm, Dark Wizard he would nave been expelled.

The excuse that James hated the Dark Arts is even weaker when compared to Harry's actions. Although the boy has hated Draco allmost from the very beginning and knew that the Lucius is a real DE, he never did it because of Draco being a 'dark wizard'. They might love to hex each other in the corridor, but they don't want to do it in the name of fight of a 'good guy' against a dark wizard. Harry tries to do everything to get Draco because young Malfoy is a substitute for his evil father, not because he is a threat. The feeling of hatred must have been similar in the case of James/Severus and Harry/Draco - a hereditary fight to protect one's family honour and safety while endangering the position of the hostile family, which fits into third stage of the Kohlberg model.

This would fit into the idea that the hatred between James and Snape wasn't because a higher ideal, but unfortunatelly it implies that there was an animosity between the Potter family and the Snape family, but there's no proof in the books for it...

by FireInTheSky Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaguarundi
Also by the start of 7th year the torment had to be decreasing on Snape…James simply couldn’t publicly humiliate Snape without wind of it reaching Lily and judging by the way James plays the crowd in SWM the limelight was a large part of the reason for torment poor Snape.


I think that you're right, I believe that the torment to Snape decreased, but it did still exist, "Well," said Lupin slowly, "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?" (page 671 of OotP US hardback edition) So, the way I understand it is that he still continued with Snape, even though it probably died down. I also like your point about the limelight being part of the reason for him to bully Snape.

I think that the this quote contains something as important as the fact that James continued to hex Snape: the fact that Snape did not lose any opportunity to hex James. Which proves that the relationship between Snape and James was not one of victim- aggressor. Snape did hex James. Now, the question is who started it. But the fact remains that it wasn't one sided. We have witnessed only the moment James hexed and bullied James. But it is more than possible that there were moments in the marauder's past when Snape bullied and hexed James.

by subtle science Talk about missing something something obvious and major. Great catch in noting the focus of Sirius' insults! For all my blathering about how personal the comments were, I never put two and two together. I think your observation just makes it more likely that the cause of the enmity between Sirius and Snape is a very personal one...and, at the point of SWM, it's more than a bit one-sided. Fascinating...it really narrows down the motivation. Although it doesn't reveal it: still, the burning question--what is the trigger that sets Sirius off?

I really hope that James did change quite a bit. I suppose that's my being (strangely) idealistic, but I do hope that what Lupin and Sirius say about James' change is true. If he didn't really alter his mind set and behavior, then it also calls into question Lily's character--and all of that is too much contradiction of previously established traits for me to accept easily.

An interesting point is the change in the role of aggressor. During SWM, Lily's description of James' "walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can" (p. 648,US hardcover) shows James in the unflattering light of general school bully, and it supports what's seen in SWM--Snape isn't doing anything to James by simply sitting and reading his exam. He just becomes a target because "he exists" and, apparently, his existence annoys James. However, in the discussion of James' post-SWM character change, Lupin's comment changes the role of the aggressor: "[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James" (p. 671). James retaliates, but it seems, according to Lupin's timeline of events, that it's Snape who's going after James.

This makes perfect sense: Snape wouldn't know anything about any internal changes going on in James' character, and he's out for the revenge he promised for what James did to him in SWM. What went on between Snape and the Marauders before SWM is hazy--far too many missing details (July 16, please?), but after is clearer: James definitely has to deal with a victim who has turned on him, and Lupin's comment makes it sound as if James is on the defensive post-SWM. He's not hexing Snape--or, apparently, anybody else in the school--for the fun of it, but in response. Lupin's version makes sense to me--especially if James was changing during this time period.

Great thoughts as always subtle! I just want to add my two cents.

1. the hatred between James, Snape and Sirius.

I think it may be possible that Sirius was the one who really hated Snape, for reasons that we are going to find out. It may be the fact that Snape embodied everything that Sirius hated the most. Sirius represented the choice of rebelling against an authoritarian and mad family, full of prejudices, whereas Snape embodied the choice of following his family's tracks. But it may also be that there is another reason why Sirius hates Snape, and I believe it is true. Jo said that we are going to find out why Sirius hates Snape. If the reason were just Snape's predisposition towards dark arts, what would be the need to reveal this reason in HBP? We already know.

With regard to James-Snape, I think that Snape was the one who hated James. Maybe because, as Remus said, James represented everything that Snape wanted to be and could not.

james may have loathed Snape, too, but I think it was mainly Snape who hated James.

2. James having changed or not!
Of course that nothing is sure, but I think we have a lot of reasons to believe that he did change. or not even that, we have many reasons to believe that he was a good people in general.

The majority of people do mistakes and show a liitle cruelty or nastiness from time to time. But this doesn't make them bad people.

All the persons who knew him speak fondly of him! He was a loyal friend. he offered a lot of support to Lupin! He married Lily! He confronted Voldemort and was part of the Order! He died to save his family!
Nobody has lied about him! Everything is true. he was a good person1 But a person who on his way from teenager to man, felt the need to show off and in trying that he did some stupid things.

3. Snape- James interaction!

I agree with you about that quote, subtle. This is exactky what i posted hereinabove. I disagree about something, though. You say that James used to be the one who started things with Snape and in the seventh year the wheel changed and Snape was the one who started things as he was looking for revenge.

Well, I think we have no proof to presume such a situation. There are James's words in OOTP when he said to Lily that Snape hadn't done anything to him, he just existed. But I think these words may not be accurate!
There may have been lots of reasons why James wanted to hurt Snape, even if he was wrong in doing so. Here are some:
- Snape had done something terrible to Sirius;
- Snape had done something terrible to Remus or Peter or anybody else, or he simply treated everyone badly;
- Snape was fascinated by dark arts and was a supporter of the pure-blood ideology, which was what James hated the most;
- Snape looked simply not very clean and was unpleasant to anyone. And we know how cruel children are in general to those who look different;
- Snape had done something to James himself, with intention or not.

There may be a lot of reasons, although they don't justify James's behavior in that scene, of course. What i want to say is that we have no proof other than James's words that James was the one who started the things between Snape and him. Nor do we have proofs that Snape was just a victim until year 7 . No reasons to not believe that even if James was the one who started things in the first year, Snape continued them by constantly provoking, and getting back to James.

About James's words to Lily not being very conclusive

I think there may have been a lot o reasons why James di8dn't tell Lily why exactly he hated Snape and chose a " just because" answer!

It really wasn't the time for James to start and tell Lily why exactly he hated Snape. There may have been more than one reason, which could not have been explained there, in front of all the students.

Moreover, it might have been personal reasons and 1. James wanted to show off and impress Lily and at that time he didn't have the maturity to realize that with the arrogant git attitude would not succeed anything and that it was better to just be himself. And as he wanted to show off he thought that explaining why he hated Snape: he had hurt Sirius, or whatever wouldn't not look cool, whereas saying that he hated Snape just because was quite cool.
2. James couldn't show Snape his weak parts. If he admitted which the personal reasons for hating Snape were he would have given Snape a powerful weapon
3. boys just don't want to talk about their feelings and don't like to analyze them either. They think feelings and talking about feelings are girly things and show weakness. Therefore it is possible that he didn't want to talk about the reasons for hating Snape. It is even possible that although unconsciously the reasons exist, he just didn't stop to think about it.

The conclusion is, that I don't think we have enough proofs to say that James was the one who had started things and until the seventh year Snape was just a victim

gottalovelupin: I hate to "quibble" over little things - check my avatar :evil: - but I'm afraid Lupin doesn't say that Snape ever "hexed" James. I believe he said Snape never missed an opportunity to "curse" James.

Of course, in the HP world, a curse might be used interchangeably with hex.

Sirius also says in GoF, American edition, page 531:

"Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters."

Or . . . JKR might be having us on a little bit with language. :evil:

"Curse" has many meanings, and of course, Harry and all of us take the word "curse" to mean "using a horribly dark spell against" James. Or, it could mean that Snape "cursed" at James, as he plainly does in SWM, with a string of swear words and profanity. That really seems to bother James in SWM and is the reason he washes out Snape's mouth, you know? So I don't think it is too strong a leap to say that Snape might have verbally abused James and that's all it took to make James hex him.

Hex almost always deals with magic:

hex (v.)
1830, from Pennsylvania Ger. hexe "to practice witchcraft," from Ger. hexen "to hex," related to Hexe "witch," from M.H.G. hecse, hexse, from O.H.G. hagazussa (see hag). Noun meaning "magic spell" is first recorded 1909.

But curse, while it can be magical, has more to do with anger:

curse
O.E. curs "a prayer that evil or harm befall one," of uncertain origin, perhaps O.Fr. curuz "anger," or L. cursus "course." Connection with cross is unlikely. No similar word exists in Gmc., Romance, or Celtic. Meaning "to swear profanely" is from c.1230. Curses as a histrionic exclamation is from 1885.

There's just enough difference in the meaning to make me think that Lupin and Sirius might mean something different from the obvious. For instance, how many magical "curses" would a 5th year student know?

In the U.S. we use the word "cuss," so there would be no confusion if that word were used. But curse has many, many synonyms ranging from "bad word" to "criticize" to "swearing an oath against":

http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=curse&start=11

curse:
cuss, cuss word, exclamation, interjection, oath, swear

bad word, curse, cuss, cuss word, dirty word, expletive, naughty word, oath, obscenity, profane oath, profanity, swear, swearword, vulgarity

animadvert, berate, blow up, bluster, castigate, censure, condemn, curse, declaim, denounce, denunciate, execrate, explode, fume, intimidate, inveigh against, menace, protest, rage, rail, reprobate, swear at, thunder, upbraid, vilify, vituperate

evil eye, double whammy, hex, ill wishes, jinx, malocchio, silent curse, whammy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As far as the parallel with Draco, I don't see that Harry tries every way in the world to "get him." I see the opposite - Draco is always ready to start a fight with one of the trio or Neville or Ginny. Draco is the name-caller, not Harry.

I can see James at some point telling Lily quite a bit about Snape to justify what he and Sirius did, but was any of it true? Bullies fabricate things all the time to justify why they pick on people. Look at all the magical newspapers that have attacked Harry and Dumbledore over and over, called them names, lied about Harry's love life, called Dumbledore a lunatic, and called both of them "dangerous."

This is just my opinion, but I think Sirius truly believes that James was a good person "to him." I think Sirius really believes that Snape got what he deserves. I think Sirius believes alot of things that aren't necessarily true. I believe Sirius thinks that he and James were the best people ever, but he was never in Snape's position, was he?

Mcpherson--A belated Welcome! I just realized that I rudely didn't say so in my previous post...

gottalovelupin--I can't accept that everything is true when it is positive about James, but not when it's negative. A good deal of my post was a follow-up to a previous one (#1252), in which I took a closer look at SWM.

James clearly hates Snape: it's why he points Snape out to Sirius as their target. Just as clearly: James hates Snape because of some past that we have not yet heard much of or seen--the most we have is the references to Snape's being an oddball, knowing Dark spells, and being immersed in the Dark Arts, none of which has been corroborated; silver ink pot and chievrefueil made some very interesting points about the lack of any mention of the Dark Arts during the insults in SWM. So, whatever first sparked the mutual hate is as yet unknown.

My main point in my previous post was that James is the aggressor in SWM--he pinpoints Snape and begins the attack. Snape is on the defensive and his defense is aimed solely at James, despite Sirius' participation, both in spells and insults; again, this response by Snape indicates a history between Snape and James--it connected to a discussion of how/why Snape could possibly hate James more than he does Sirius, and Snape's focus on James in SWM seems to support what other characters have said, that Snape hated James the most of the four Marauders.

Whatever else the history involved before SWM, Lupin made it clear that, some time after SWM--by 7th year--James had eased up on his hexing of people in general, but could not do so with Snape, because Snape "never lost an opportunity to curse James" (p. 671). That statement by Lupin establishes that Snape definitely went after James, post-SWM...but it still doesn't illuminate pre-SWM. Why James and Snape hated each other and why Sirius hated Snape is, to this point, undefined in the books. Even James' "it's more the fact that he exists" (p. 647) explains nothing--and I do think it's an accurate view of James' attitude toward Snape at the time--about the why of the attitude.

So I don't think it is too strong a leap to say that Snape might have verbally abused James and that's all it took to make James hex him.
Verbal abuse is very hurtful too, and Snape if he did use verbal abuse, could have just been purposly provoking James. We all have been told by Lily that James had quite the big head when he was a teenager, so verbal insults could be very harsh to him. You're right though, I had been interchanging the word curse with hex whenever I read that quote, but it could have meant verbal abuse as well.


This is just my opinion, but I think Sirius truly believes that James was a good person "to him." I think Sirius really believes that Snape got what he deserves. I think Sirius believes alot of things that aren't necessarily true. I believe Sirius thinks that he and James were the best people ever, but he was never in Snape's position, was he?
Maybe that makes a great difference, I've never been bullied, I got called a mean name by a friend once, but that's about it, and I honestly think that James and Sirius were good people. I've never been a bully though either, I really try to prevent bullying.

McPherson: I'm sorry - I'm an idiot!

Welcome to the thread! I enjoyed reading your post very much!

http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/emoticons3/ACC35.GIF

I've looked for evidence literally everywhere and couldn't find any proof that Sirius was the first Black who wasn't sorted into Slytherin. I did a really thorough search, as I've allways assumed that all members of the family belonged to this house and to find something to proove it was very illuminating for me - it is a typical thing for most readers to jump to such assumptions even without any evidence in the text.

Maybe it is because of Phineas Nigellus, the great-great grandfather of Sirius Black, who wears the Slytherin colors and was the most disliked Headmaster in Hogwarts History. :p He is the ultimate Slytherin, so everyone seems to think he sets the tone for the rest of the family, but that may not be true.

We know that Sirius was in Gryffindor, but we don't know about Bella, Narcissa, Andromeda, Tonks, any brothers or sisters of Tonks, and any other descendents of Phineas Nigellus.

Bullying is a power play--either to gain social position or to maintain it. Bullies are, quite often, popular people: they set the social rules and establish who belongs and who does not. This is the 'social enforcer' theory: a deviant from the norm is identified and punished; the bullies feel entitled to do this because the odd one out deserves correction and administering that punishment enhances the bullies' social standing. Fear is a part of it: no one wants to be the next deviant who needs to be isolated.

Bullies who work in a group (there aren't many solo operators) approve of each other: they reinforce each others' attitudes and they see themselves as above others--after all, they set the standard of social behavior. When they are not bullying, they can be quite pleasant people to be around (after all, fear can only get you just so much companionship); they enjoy each other's company. They're 'nice,' 'normal' kids.

Biggest problem for teachers and administrators: convincing the parent of a bully that his/her son/daughter is, in fact, one. The denial is usually instant: the child never acts like that at home; the child has plenty of friends and is very popluar--always has been; we didn't raise him/her to be like that; the victim is the troublemaker....I could go on....Why is it the biggest problem? Because most--if not all--of what the parent says is absolutely true. And bullies are rarely stupid or careless enough to be caught in the act, so the authority figures are caught in a (s)he said/(s)he said situation. It's, unfortunately, a rare fellow student who will step forward to testify--because guess what happens to that person?

Sorry for Bullying 101. But it's why I can see James and Sirius as being appalling bullies--and yet not see them as total villains, and also see why other characters in the books did not see them as anything but good, fun people.

Hello! First post on this thread, but Silver Ink Pot suggested I come over here and bring up a discussion from another thread on Lupin/James/Prefects...

As far as I can remember, we've not been told that James was NEVER the prefect, just that Lupin was made prefect originally to keep the others in line. My theory was that maybe Lupin didn't make it though all 7 years at Hogwarts, especially after Snape discovered his little secret, thus allowing James to become Head Boy in their 7th year.

I don't really have canon to back this up, but I don't recall any mention of Lupin past 5th year, so it's something I've been toying with for a while.

Also, Duan Duran is neither a Duran, nor a Duran.

Discuss.

(You can tell it's been a long day when you randomly add Linda Richman quotes to the end of posts...)

Chiev: :clap: Great post, and you bring up something that I've wondered about for a long time.Thank you! :blush:Did James lie to Lily in order to gain her good opinion? Lying could be justified in someone's reasoning under Level 3, right?

There is evidence that he did, for instance when they are talking about hexing Snape-the-special-case and Harry asks if his Mom was "all right with that." Sirius tells him she probably didn't know about it.

That is an insight into the minds of the Marauders, isn't it? If James had secrets from Lily, then they all kept his secrets from Lily, didn't they?I would think so. . .This reminds me of one of my rules of thumb. I never tell my friends anything that I don't want their spouses to know, too. :tu:

As for James lying to Lily, I think that Sirius and Lupin make it pretty clear that he kept his continued hexing with Snape from her. As for lying in general, I'm not sure. Someone at level 3 would find lying moral as long as it didn't diminish their esteem in the eyes of someone about whose opinion they cared. However, if the lie was found out, damage could be done. I guess it depends on how likely they are to be found out or how much of a risk they're willing to take. . .If James was "stag-nant" (did you catch your own pun? :evil: ) :lol: No, I didn't. Thanks for pointing it out to me! :tu: I also like your analysis of James' moral level. I'd like to agree, except it would take the hero halo off James once and ofr all (but that might me meant to be..). If the analysis was true, it would mean that James wasn't acting out of the highest moral standards, but it doesn't diminish his good qualities. Even if he only joined the Order because he thought someone with his beliefs should, he was still willing to put himself in danger and do it. Even if he only confronted Voldemort because he was afraid others would think poorly of him for running away, he was still brave in doing so. In other words, he maintains all of his heroic personality traits. I like it also because it fits so nocely with my idea that Sirius was the "leader" (old discussion, I know, not even sure if it was here or Dev of Sev, anymore)It was here. How do you see it supporting Sirius in the leadership role?

Welcome Mcpherson!! :)I've looked for evidence literally everywhere and couldn't find any proof that Sirius was the first Black who wasn't sorted into Slytherin. I did a really thorough search, as I've allways assumed that all members of the family belonged to this house and to find something to proove it was very illuminating for me - it is a typical thing for most readers to jump to such assumptions even without any evidence in the text.Thanks for checking. :tu: I think you're right that a lot of people make assumptions and turn them into facts. It's so easy to do when the assumption seems to make sense, but we really should wait for JKR! Can anyone be a real dark wizard at this age? In SWM all the characters are in their fifth year, but obviously the mutual hatered had to start years before. In this light, the argument that 'James hated the Dark Arts' as the excuse for bullying Snape is even weaker. I agree. No one could look at an 11 year old and say that they are or will be a dark wizard. Anyone who did that to Snape would obviously have been wrong, since in the end, Snape works with the Order. Of course, another 11 year old might be that wrong. . . :rolleyes:Harry tries to do everything to get Draco because young Malfoy is a substitute for his evil father, not because he is a threat. The feeling of hatred must have been similar in the case of James/Severus and Harry/Draco - a hereditary fight to protect one's family honour and safety while endangering the position of the hostile family, which fits into third stage of the Kohlberg model.

This would fit into the idea that the hatred between James and Snape wasn't because a higher ideal, but unfortunatelly it implies that there was an animosity between the Potter family and the Snape family, but there's no proof in the books for it...I don't think the feud between Harry and Draco is really a family fight, is it? Harry never knew of the Malfoys before Hogwarts and he had a problem with Draco before he ever knew anything of Lucius's past. . . If I recall correctly, Harry didn't like Draco because he insulted Hagrid in Madam Malkin's shop. Harry spurned Draco's attempt at friendship and Draco hated him afterward. Something similar could have happened between Snape and James. . .I suppose Lily could be totally hoodwinked from start to finish; however, just because she didn't know about the ongoing feud with Snape when she dated James--when he hid it from her--doesn't seem to me an automatic proof she didn't know what she was talking about during SWM (she certainly was right about his hair-mussing and his playing with the Snitch). I just don't see her character as being particularly dim--quite the reverse; she seems to have James' measure in SWM.I agree. I take her word in SWM to be accurate. That being said...I do hope James changed, at least a little. If he didn't...I just don't know what to make of Lily, then, since she suddenly goes out with him in 7th year. Again...is she really that dim? But the worst aspect would be the effect on Harry: it certainly doesn't do much good for him to keep his father on a pedestal, having a completely unrealistic view of James. I don't know if this comment was directed at me, Jaguarundi, SIP, or just in general, but James's behavior changed, even if his moral views didn't. I don't see how Lily could be viewed as dim. If James started acting in a way that she would approve, why would she question his motives? It doesn't seem natural. As long as James was behaving morally in her opinion, why would she be dim for deciding to go out with him? As for Harry, even if James's moral reasoning wasn't the highest before he died (something Harry probably wouldn't be able to judge anyway), it doesn't diminish the heroic things that he did. Harry doesn't have to lose further esteem for his father (unless there is something worse than SWM, which I doubt). james may have loathed Snape, too, but I think it was mainly Snape who hated James.From what I could see in SWM, Snape has very good reason to hate James. Based on what James did in SWM, I can't imagine that he didn't hate Snape. If he didn't, it makes his actions even worse because he truly would have tormented Snape for no reason. Voldemort would've had more reason to kill Cedric (who was in a position to help Harry put up a fight).

:huh: Hello! First post on this thread, but Silver Ink Pot suggested I come over here and bring up a discussion from another thread on Lupin/James/Prefects...

As far as I can remember, we've not been told that James was NEVER the prefect, just that Lupin was made prefect originally to keep the others in line. My theory was that maybe Lupin didn't make it though all 7 years at Hogwarts, especially after Snape discovered his little secret, thus allowing James to become Head Boy in their 7th year.

I don't really have canon to back this up, but I don't recall any mention of Lupin past 5th year, so it's something I've been toying with for a while.

Also, Duan Duran is neither a Duran, nor a Duran.

Discuss.

(You can tell it's been a long day when you randomly add Linda Richman quotes to the end of posts...)

Hi, Mizaru! And Welcome!

http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/emoticons3/welcome.gif

I love Mike Meyers as well as Linda. They're both like budda! :p

I was intrigued by your theory for a couple of reasons. First, ever since I read OotP, I've wondered how James got to be Head Boy, if Lupin was the "good boy" in Gryffindor. Why would James be chosen over Lupin?

Maybe I just don't understand the concept of Head Boy and Girl, but the canon is that Percy Weasley was Prefect and then Head Boy. So how did Lupin get overlooked unless he was gone? :huh:

Another interesting thing is that Lupin mentions that Lily started "going out" with James in Seventh Year. That would mean that James was already Head Boy, which might be the way he proved to Lily that he was reformed, plus they would be together more often. But you are right, we have no idea what Lupin was doing in year 7. Sirius had run away from home by then, and was living either at school or at James' house.

What this made me think about is why Lupin hasn't been able to get a job, thanks to the legislation proposed by Umbridge. It could be that in order to get a job, werewolves especially have to have a diploma from Wizarding School. Only since they are banned from Wizarding School, they can't get a diploma. Something like that - a Catch 22, if you know that phrase. Lupin and other werewolves are trapped in a situation they can't win no matter what they do.

Quote from silver ink pot:
I was intrigued by your theory for a couple of reasons. First, ever since I read OotP, I've wondered how James got to be Head Boy, if Lupin was the "good boy" in Gryffindor. Why would James be chosen over Lupin?

Maybe I just don't understand the concept of Head Boy and Girl, but the canon is that Percy Weasley was Prefect and then Head Boy. So how did Lupin get overlooked unless he was gone?

Another interesting thing is that Lupin mentions that Lily started "going out" with James in Seventh Year. That would mean that James was already Head Boy, which might be the way he proved to Lily that he was reformed, plus they would be together more often. But you are right, we have no idea what Lupin was doing in year 7. Sirius had run away from home by then, and was living either at school or at James' house.

Quote from Mizaru:
Hello! First post on this thread, but Silver Ink Pot suggested I come over here and bring up a discussion from another thread on Lupin/James/Prefects...

As far as I can remember, we've not been told that James was NEVER the prefect, just that Lupin was made prefect originally to keep the others in line. My theory was that maybe Lupin didn't make it though all 7 years at Hogwarts, especially after Snape discovered his little secret, thus allowing James to become Head Boy in their 7th year.

I don't really have canon to back this up, but I don't recall any mention of Lupin past 5th year, so it's something I've been toying with for a while.
What year did the Willow incident occur in? I've confused myself between 5th and 6th. While all of the Head Boys we have seen appear to have been prefects that might this might only be an unwritten rule that is sometimes broken. Also it could be that the nature of the Head Boy-ship required more work (or work of a different nature) then Lupin, with his condition, was able to handle. This could have forced Dumbledore to consider another candidate from the Gryffindors (and I mean look at who he has to consider).

Isn't there a saying about the nice guy always finishing last? Lupin may be the "good boy" of Gryffindor but we haven't seen the selection criteria. Perhaps Dumbledore views the Head Boy/Girl-ships as being more of a leadership position...which Lupin doesn't exactly have. It could be that all male students can become head boy but with a certain preference given to those that are prefects (which makes sense...since they have proven themselves or at least tried to too). Then when you start to compare James to Lupin he does appear a good candidate...Dumbledore clearly doesn't watch him as closely as Harry so he'd have missed certain moments, Lupin’s condition would be a concern, James had just saved Snape...etc

And it could be that prefects change or lose their badges. I for one believe Malfoy should be stripped of his badge (preferably with Harry ripping it off of his chest).

I was intrigued by your theory for a couple of reasons. First, ever since I read OotP, I've wondered how James got to be Head Boy, if Lupin was the "good boy" in Gryffindor. Why would James be chosen over Lupin?

Maybe I just don't understand the concept of Head Boy and Girl, but the canon is that Percy Weasley was Prefect and then Head Boy. So how did Lupin get overlooked unless he was gone?

Lupin was chosen as prefect in the hope that he would be able to excercise some control over his best friends James and Sirius. He himself admitted in OoTP that he failed, and we also see this in SWM. Dumbledore must have realised this too, and maybe this is why he didn't appoint Lupin as Head Boy. He then maybe appointed James as Head Boy in the hope that, once James has some responsibility over his head, he could calm down a bit and mature, and therefore helping Sirius to show more maturity too. Well, from what we've heard, James certainly 'deflated' a bit by 7th year, so maybe this has something to do with it.

*Delurking*
Hi, Chiev, I've missed you so much here, thanks for delurking.
Just a quick question about this. Does it say anywhere that the Blacks were always in Slytherin? I looked in The Most Noble and Ancient House of Black chapter (OotP) and couldn’t find it stated. I’m wondering because of some family members Sirius mentions, his cousin, Andromeda, and his uncle, who gave him money after he ran away. Andromeda was only burned off the tapestry when she married a muggle. Sirius’s uncle was only burned off the tapestry after he gave Sirius money. If all of them, but Sirius, were in Slytherin, it shows that Slytherins aren’t all dark or pureblood maniacs. If they weren’t in Slytherin, it’s likely that other family members, of whom we haven’t heard, were also not in Slytherin.
For some reason, I thought Andromeda was in Ravenclaw, but I don't know where I got it from, probably fanfic. :lol: Good observation!
I agree. The animosity between Sirius and Snape is personal and not idealistic. If it really had to do with Sirius’s rebellion against his family, there would be more emphasis on Snape being a dark wizard—it seems like Sirius or James might have mentioned it at least once in SWM.
Especially since it's a DADA exam. You would think that would be plenty reason for Sirius to say something about Dark Arts, but instead he goes for the greasy nose. (On the other hand: He does say his nose was so close ot the paper it was almost touching it. Which appears to be a taunt about how interested Snape is in DADA, as well as a taunt about his nose. But it's not necessarily the same as a taunt about being into the Dark Arts themselves, only Defence.)
However, it’s entirely possible that James saved Snape for a level 3 reason. He could easily have done it to impress Lily. He had to something to make her reverse her opinion of him after SWM—wasn’t this the perfect opportunity?
Oooh, you're evil, Chiev. :evil: :lol: :p
I have a question: What about Sirius' moral development? His problem, on level 3, is that his friends and his family expect different things from him. His family expects him to support Voldemort's ideas, while his friends expect him to fight against Voldemort. He chooses to do what his friends expect him to, and leave his family. Is this still consistent with level 3? What does a level 3 person do when two important groups have different expectations of him? (Is this a moral dilemma that could eventually lead to a higher stage?)As far as I can remember, we've not been told that James was NEVER the prefect, just that Lupin was made prefect originally to keep the others in line. My theory was that maybe Lupin didn't make it though all 7 years at Hogwarts, especially after Snape discovered his little secret, thus allowing James to become Head Boy in their 7th year.
:welcome:
That's a clever idea. This makes sense when you think about Lupin's difficulties in getting a job later on. I thought it was odd that he can't get a job. Yes, he's a werewolf, but isn't that a secret? Do all potential employers know? (Is he perhaps forced to tell them at every job interview? Do they check the MoM Werewolf Register?) If he didn't finish his NEWTs, but only his OWLs, this would be a further reason for why it's difficult for him to find work.

Also, another point, is Lupin's reaction when Snape spills the beans at the end of PoA. He goes and packs his suitcase right away. Could this perhaps be an echo of what happened post Whomping Willow? Did he feel he couldn't stay at Hogwarts anymore after having put another student's (Snape's) life in danger, and so left, even if Dumbledore had promised it would be kept quiet? In PoA he puts Harry&co's and Snape's life in danger again, by transforming uncontrolled in front of them (more dramatically in the film than in the book, though). Perhaps Lupin feels that this is a repeat of what happened when he was a school. He leaves - again?
What year did the Willow incident occur in?
Most likely in 6th year, based on Snape's line: "Black proved himself capable of murder at the age of 16. You have not forgotten that he once tried to kill me?" (quoted from my memory, end of PoA.) We haven't seen Sirius' birthday on JKR's site, yet, have we? Which means he must be born between 22nd April and 1st September sometime. So he would have been 15 for most of his 5th year, and only turned 16 at the very end of it.
(Unless she's got going to give him a happy birthday now that he's dead.)

by Chevrefueil From what I could see in SWM, Snape has very good reason to hate James. Based on what James did in SWM, I can't imagine that he didn't hate Snape. If he didn't, it makes his actions even worse because he truly would have tormented Snape for no reason. Voldemort would've had more reason to kill Cedric (who was in a position to help Harry put up a fight).
Yes, Snape had good reasons to hate Snape and I am not saying that James didn't hate Snape. What I wanted to say, and this is hust my perception and my feeling, it is not exactly canon, is that in the relationship of hatred between Snape and James, Snape hated James much more than he hated Sirius and more than James hated Snape.

In the relationship of hatred between Sirius and Snape, Sirius hated Snape more than Snape hated Sirius and more than James hated Snape.

I have no idea if this makes sense:)

by subtle science James clearly hates Snape: it's why he points Snape out to Sirius as their target. Just as clearly: James hates Snape because of some past that we have not yet heard much of or seen--the most we have is the references to Snape's being an oddball, knowing Dark spells, and being immersed in the Dark Arts, none of which has been corroborated; silver ink pot and chievrefueil made some very interesting points about the lack of any mention of the Dark Arts during the insults in SWM. So, whatever first sparked the mutual hate is as yet unknown.

My main point in my previous post was that James is the aggressor in SWM--he pinpoints Snape and begins the attack. Snape is on the defensive and his defense is aimed solely at James, despite Sirius' participation, both in spells and insults; again, this response by Snape indicates a history between Snape and James--it connected to a discussion of how/why Snape could possibly hate James more than he does Sirius, and Snape's focus on James in SWM seems to support what other characters have said, that Snape hated James the most of the four Marauders.

Whatever else the history involved before SWM, Lupin made it clear that, some time after SWM--by 7th year--James had eased up on his hexing of people in general, but could not do so with Snape, because Snape "never lost an opportunity to curse James" (p. 671). That statement by Lupin establishes that Snape definitely went after James, post-SWM...but it still doesn't illuminate pre-SWM. Why James and Snape hated each other and why Sirius hated Snape is, to this point, undefined in the books. Even James' "it's more the fact that he exists" (p. 647) explains nothing--and I do think it's an accurate view of James' attitude toward Snape at the time--about the why of the attitude.

I agree 100% subtle. We have no idea who started the hatred! We have no idea why Sirius hates Snape so much, but we are going to find out, according to Jo's statements. We have an idea why Snape hates James so much- Lupin's words about James being what Snape wanted to be- but there may be other things too, which we may find out in future books. We also don't know why James hated Snape.

I also agree that we don't know what happened pre-Pensieve scene, and this is exactly what I wanted to say in my previous post. I thought that you said that pre-seventh year it was James "chasing" Snape and after that it was Snape" chasing" James and I disagreed with that, as we don't have any evidence that it was like that all the time. We have only one scene. Now we agree.

You also seem to agree with me that Sirius hated Snape more than James hated Snape and that Snape hated James more than he hated Sirius! Why? I guess we are going to find out.

About the fact that James changed, I think that we have evidence that he did change. Of course, mainly are indirect pieces of evidence, as they consist in the words of other people. But I think we also have some direct pieces of evidence like the fact that James became an animagus for Remus and helped Remus and didn't abandon him and that he married Lily and that he confronted Voldemort and helped the Order and that he died trying to save his family.

About the reasons DD chose Remus to be a prefect

by moonlite Lupin was chosen as prefect in the hope that he would be able to excercise some control over his best friends James and Sirius. He himself admitted in OoTP that he failed, and we also see this in SWM. Dumbledore must have realised this too, and maybe this is why he didn't appoint Lupin as Head Boy. He then maybe appointed James as Head Boy in the hope that, once James has some responsibility over his head, he could calm down a bit and mature, and therefore helping Sirius to show more maturity too. Well, from what we've heard, James certainly 'deflated' a bit by 7th year, so maybe this has something to do with it.

This may be one of the reasons why DD chose Remus to be a prefect. However, we don't have a direct proof. All we have are Remus's words and it appears that Lupin is way too modest and his words with regard to himself shouldn't been taken ad literam, so seriously. His words about himself should probably be looked at in a much more favorable light. Remus says that he was chosen prfect so that he would be able to control his friends. But apart from his words we don't have other proofs that it was like that. It is within lupin's character to think that he wasn't chosen prefect because of his own merits and only so that he should control his friends.

However, I think that things might not have stayed like that.
Dd was an intelligent man, he should have realized that Lupin would not be able to control James and Sirius too much. Dd knew what kind of person Lupin was and he knew that Lupin may have tried to stop Sirius and James even when he wasn't a prfect. If he didn't do it or if he didn't succeed before he was made a prefect why would his badge have change things?

Lupin's thoughts about J/S's behavior couldn't change just because he was a prefect! He isn't the Percy type, who applies rules strictly, even if he doesn't believe in them. or the type who believes the rules are right just because they are rules.
So, if he didn't believe what James and Sirius were doing was wrong, i don't think that just because he received a badge he changed his mind.
And if he thought that what James and Sirius were doing was wrong, then the badge didn't change anything. It only gave him more authority.
And Dd must have known that J/S were too much of a troublemaker to stop with their pranking just because their friend was a prefect!

DD probably hoped that things would happen this way, but I don't think that he actually believed it would work. Not entirely, at least.

His reasons might have been the following:
1. he awarded Lupin for his grades and for his activity and for his general good behavior;
2. he wanted to give Lupin more confidence in his abilities, he wanted to helped him once more because he deserved his help.
3. he knew that Lupin would be a good prefect because he was gentle and kind and would help the younger children;
4. he wanted to make Lupin assume a role of leadership, as he saw that Lupin had some innate qualities within himself which made him, despite of his condition, a good leader.
5. and last but not least, he wanted to make James and Sirus more controllable. He hoped that James and Sirius would calm more under Lupin's influence, even if not completely. And he hoped that Lupin would take things more seriously when it came to James and Sirius's attitude, as he was a prefect and had more responsabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severa78
I also like your analysis of James' moral level. I'd like to agree, except it would take the hero halo off James once and ofr all (but that might me meant to be..).

If the analysis was true, it would mean that James wasn't acting out of the highest moral standards, but it doesn't diminish his good qualities. Even if he only joined the Order because he thought someone with his beliefs should, he was still willing to put himself in danger and do it. Even if he only confronted Voldemort because he was afraid others would think poorly of him for running away, he was still brave in doing so. In other words, he maintains all of his heroic personality traits.You're right. I wasn't saying James is not a hero for sacrifying for his family or being in the Order. Let me make myself clear. I merely meant that it takes away the "perfect guy" image that kids usually have of their parents, and that I had of James (being a fictional character he was allowed to be better than human so I placed him at level 6 ;)). In a way, I got fooled like a kid about James, believing him perfect along with Harry, so I was also shocked to learn he's only human, just like Harry was.
That, and I made a horrible amount of typos.. I must have been tired.. sorry! :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by Severa78
I like it also because it fits so nocely with my idea that Sirius was the "leader" (old discussion, I know, not even sure if it was here or Dev of Sev, anymore)

It was here. How do you see it supporting Sirius in the leadership role?Typos again!
*goes editing*
Reading that wonderful post I had the impression that a person at level 3, hexing people becuse he cares about what his friends think of him, is hardly a "leader". I'd expect a "leader" to set the standard, not conform to it. It did nothing to improve Sirius's position, but it diminished James's in my eyes. Does it make sense?
As for Sirius being my candidate leader, I'd have to wait until Norbertha gets her answer:
I have a question: What about Sirius' moral development? His problem, on level 3, is that his friends and his family expect different things from him. His family expects him to support Voldemort's ideas, while his friends expect him to fight against Voldemort. He chooses to do what his friends expect him to, and leave his family. Is this still consistent with level 3? What does a level 3 person do when two important groups have different expectations of him? (Is this a moral dilemma that could eventually lead to a higher stage?)If Sirius was closer to level 4 he'd have more of a leadership..

The Prefect / Head Boy debate

This could have forced Dumbledore to consider another candidate from the Gryffindors (and I mean look at who he has to consider).
I always thought there's only one Head Boy, so Dd didn't need to pick him from Gryffindor.

I like Norbertha's idea that Lupin might have left school after the WW, mirroring the same choice at the end of PoA. But that would also put Remus at level 5 when he was 16! Plausible?

One thing I was thinking last night (yes, I'm obsessed) was wether Lupin's condition had an effect on his moral development, either an advantage or a hindrance. Please, Chiev, can you fathom an answer?

As for who was prefect in 6th year.. who knows? Maybe James had started "deflating" a bit in 6th year and was rewarded for that. That would make the change less drastic in Lily's eyes, and also would help him make the choice to save Snape in the WW.

I also like the idea that Lupin might have got the badge in 5th year to help him develop self-esteem (mirrors the choice of Ron). did it work? We don't really know so far. We don't know if it worked for Ron either (Quidditch helped him more in that line of development, IMO)

Welcome to all the new ones! :p

I asked about development in people who had experienced severe prejudice and those who had been abused, if it changed their levels, or the speed with which they developed over on Dev of Sev, but I don't think Chiev saw it. :p Or if she did, she ignored me. :upset: So I add my vote, too. :eyebrows:

Alright, I'll put in my opinion about the prefect head boy idea. I could have sworn that somewhere JKR said that you didn't have to be a prefect in order to be head boy, but I can't find it anywhere (I looked through her site, from the FAQ, to one of her interviews to the rumors section and it wasn't there) so I think that I made it up. :blush: However, the point still remains that I like to think that you don't have to be a prefect to be head boy. I think that we were lead to believe that because Percy the perfect prefect was also head boy, I believe that it's probably easier to be a head boy if you're a prefect, but not impossible. I'd like to think that Dumbledore wouldn't have demoted Lupin from prefect, it doesn't seem like a real Dumbledore thing to do. Plus I think that if James wasn't prefect, but was head boy, then it's foreshadowing to later in the series. What I don't understand is that if Lupin was prefect 5th year, and James was 6th year, then why wouldn't Sirius have said so when he spoke about Lupin being prefect? He said that Lupin was the good boy prefect and that he was in detention too much with James to be a prefect. Which offers Harry some comfort knowing that his father hadn't been a prefect either. Thus I believe that although it's not directly stated that Lupin was a prefect both years, it is implied. That's just my opinion though, great idea and everyone has had excellent points on this matter, good job. :tu:

Well, FireInTheSky, you're not going mad because I could swear I read about not needing to be Prefect to become Head Boy too. Unfortunately, I can't find it either.. But that's already two of us, a bit conforting. :p

I was just wondering.. are there Prefects in 6th year? If so, there would be 4 Prefects for each House, but neither Hermine nor Ron mention that. So I must say I think you're supposed to be Prefect in your 5th year only.

By the way, is it compulsory to go on to NEWT level? If not, what would happen if a Prefect decided to leave school after OWLs if he was supposed to keep is Prefect-ing duties for another year?

So the question of Lupin having been Prefect might have nothing to do to either James Head-Boy-ship or Lupin flight from school after WW.

I like Norbertha's idea that Lupin might have left school after the WW, mirroring the same choice at the end of PoA. But that would also put Remus at level 5 when he was 16! Plausible?
It wasn't my idea, it was Mizaru's. (I get embarrassed when I get credit for ideas that aren't mine... :blush:) I just elaborated on Mizaru's idea and came up with the mirror thing to support it. :)

It wasn't my idea, it was Mizaru's. (I get embarrassed when I get credit for ideas that aren't mine... :blush:) I just elaborated on Mizaru's idea and came up with the mirror thing to support it. :)
Ooops! Then.. thank you, Mizaru, for the idea. I actually recently happened upon the original thread where it came up. All the more credit to you for coming up with this idea in a different context. Sometimes we do need fresh ideas ;)

Wow...I certainly appreciate all the credit on the theory... Thanks guys!

As Severa said:

So the question of Lupin having been Prefect might have nothing to do to either James Head-Boy-ship or Lupin flight from school after WW.

I certainly agree that these may be entirely different issues. I hadn't even thought about the need for people to graduate/take NEWTS to get a job. It would certainly explain some of Lupin's hesitation (in the movie at least...I'm not sure on the book...) when Lupin explains to Harry about how it's difficult for people "...uhm...like me" to get any job. That could have not even been referring to being a werewolf. Hrm...Anyone have book 3 handy? (I'm at work, with no real access). Is it printed like that at all? I wonder if that could even be the foreshadowing the JKR referred to in her interviews?

For the record, my take on the WW thing, James' being Headboy and dating Lily etc. Call it a series of events.

- Late 5th or early 6th year, Sirius sends Snape to the Willow. I won't claim to know his motivation or logic for this, so I'll leave that alone for now. James finds out and saves Snape at great risk to himself. This is the point were James' eyes open up; Snape could have been killed, and Sirius would have gone to prison. Remus would have been put down for it. This is more serious than anything they've ever done, and its not a game anymore.
From this point, James "deflates his head a little." He still gets on Snape's case, but not has much or as harshly as he did in SWM. He's more aware of his own actions and the actions of his friends. As he cools down, Lily becomes more accepting and tolerant of him. By the time 7th year begins, he's becomes a [ more ] mature and responsable person. Because of this change, or possibly because of the WW incident directly, Dumbledore makes him Headboy. Lily is also Headgirl, and the time they spend together strengthens their developing relationship, and the eventually start dating.

severa78: Well, FireInTheSky, you're not going mad because I could swear I read about not needing to be Prefect to become Head Boy too. Unfortunately, I can't find it either.. But that's already two of us, a bit conforting.

I've found quite a few places online that say you don't have to be Prefect to be Head Boy, but they are assuming that it is true because of what we know about James. I haven't found a quote from JKR yet confirming it, but here is what she said about Harry ever becoming Head Boy:

http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/cookarama/cinemagintnov00.html
In an attempt to glean more tidbits on Harry’s future, Rowling was asked if young Potter would become a Head Boy. "That’s weird," responded Rowling. "My daughter is obsessed with that. I don’t know why. She’s seven and she keeps saying ‘He’s going to be Head Boy, isn’t he?’ And I’m saying, ‘Maybe he wouldn’t want to be headboy...’ ‘No, he would!’ It’s funny you should say that. I’m not going to tell you which."

She was also Head Girl of her own school, Wyedean Comprehensive:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/0401-guardian-seaton.htm
Rowling looks an unlikely rebel. She was head girl of her comprehensive school in Chepstow - but she was the sort, she says, who got "caught smoking at bus stops with boys in leather jackets".

I certainly agree that these may be entirely different issues. I hadn't even thought about the need for people to graduate/take NEWTS to get a job. It would certainly explain some of Lupin's hesitation (in the movie at least...I'm not sure on the book...) when Lupin explains to Harry about how it's difficult for people "...uhm...like me" to get any job. That could have not even been referring to being a werewolf. Hrm...Anyone have book 3 handy? (I'm at work, with no real access). Is it printed like that at all? I wonder if that could even be the foreshadowing the JKR referred to in her interviews?

Mizaru: I've looked through the scene in the book, but there is nothing like that. However, I did a Google search, and there is a discussion here on CoS about the morning after in the PoA movie in which Lupin refers to "people like me."

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:ciBM62dxRoAJ:www.cosforums.com/archive/index.php/t-27193-p-2.html+lupin+job+people+like+me&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

In that discussion, it is interesting that the concensus seems to be that Lupin can't seem to bring himself to say the word "werewolf." But as Mizaru has pointed out, it could be that it means something entirely different. Maybe he feels an outcast for other reasons besides his infirmity, and lack of education would certainly be a good example.

I can see that as the foreshadowing, Mizaru, and perhaps it is, but that would have to be intentional. JKR does get to read the script in advance, and even works on it with the screenwriter. I learned that from watching the interview on one of the DVDs. But I believe she was referring to a visual element that Cuaron put in the movie that was unexpected to her, and which gave her a shiver, she said.

Well, FireInTheSky, you're not going mad because I could swear I read about not needing to be Prefect to become Head Boy too. Unfortunately, I can't find it either.. But that's already two of us, a bit conforting. :p
Wonderful, so I'm not completely crazy! ;) Really, it was quite a while ago when I remember hearing about it, I think from my sister, I believe I asked her and she told me about an interview or something that said so, but again it was months ago so I'm not sure that's how it happened.


I was just wondering.. are there Prefects in 6th year? If so, there would be 4 Prefects for each House, but neither Hermine nor Ron mention that. So I must say I think you're supposed to be Prefect in your 5th year only.
Also, my sister has the answer to this, she explained it to me and since she's the one who realized it, I told her to post the answer here and she said she'd come by later.

I've found quite a few places online that say you don't have to be Prefect to be Head Boy, but they are assuming that it is true because of what we know about James. I haven't found a quote from JKR yet confirming it, but here is what she said about Harry ever becoming Head Boy:

http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/cookarama/cinemagintnov00.html
In an attempt to glean more tidbits on Harry’s future, Rowling was asked if young Potter would become a Head Boy. "That’s weird," responded Rowling. "My daughter is obsessed with that. I don’t know why. She’s seven and she keeps saying ‘He’s going to be Head Boy, isn’t he?’ And I’m saying, ‘Maybe he wouldn’t want to be headboy...’ ‘No, he would!’ It’s funny you should say that. I’m not going to tell you which."

She was also Head Girl of her own school, Wyedean Comprehensive:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/0401-guardian-seaton.htm
Rowling looks an unlikely rebel. She was head girl of her comprehensive school in Chepstow - but she was the sort, she says, who got "caught smoking at bus stops with boys in leather jackets".
Very interesting, brilliant links by the way. I really enjoyed reading those. So could JK Rowling perhaps share some simularities with James? Not the typical "Percy" Head Boy, or Girl, but they both still became ones.

I was just wondering.. are there Prefects in 6th year? If so, there would be 4 Prefects for each House, but neither Hermine nor Ron mention that. So I must say I think you're supposed to be Prefect in your 5th year only.


Percy takes points away from "Crabbe"/"Goyle" in Chamber, which would have been his 6th year, so I believe that yes, 6th years are prefects.

Very interesting, brilliant links by the way. I really enjoyed reading those. So could JK Rowling perhaps share some simularities with James? Not the typical "Percy" Head Boy, or Girl, but they both still became ones.

Yes! I think we do gain an insight into JKR's thought processes about James and the Marauders (who are like the boys in the leather jackets). JKR said once that she was a "bad role model." It is interesting that she said that and then she writes about Dudley and his gang standing on street corners throwing rocks at cars. I believe she is writing from experience, which makes me wonder where things are going with the Marauders. :huh:

I'm glad you like the links! You can find all the "scoop" on her interviews at these links from the Leaky Cauldron. I usually check Madame Scoop, and if something isn't indexed, I do a search for a word or phrase on Quick Quotes. That's a good way to track something down.:

Madame Scoop's Index to Interviews (http://www.madamscoop.org/bytheme.htm)

Quick Quotes Quill (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/index2.html)

Edited to fix a link - sorry about that!

Yes! I think we do gain an insight into JKR's thought processes about James and the Marauders (who are like the boys in the leather jackets). JKR said once that she was a "bad role model." It is interesting that she said that and then she writes about Dudley and his gang standing on street corners throwing rocks at cars. I believe she is writing from experience, which makes me wonder where things are going with the Marauders. :huh:
It is rather interesting to think about. Perhaps she connects more with the Marauders then she does Snape. Although, she realizes that those things were wrong. Just a random thought but perhaps that may explain James' saving Snape, at the WW part, realization of past mistakes and wanting to redeem his past mistakes.

I'm glad you like the links! You can find all the "scoop" on her interviews at these links from the Leaky Cauldron. I usually check Madame Scoop, and if something isn't indexed, I do a search for a word or phrase on Quick Quotes. That's a good way to track something down.:

Madame Scoop's Index to Interviews (http://www.madamscoop.org/bytheme.htm)

Quick Quotes Quill (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/index2.html)

Edited to fix a link - sorry about that!
Thanks, my sister will be glad too, she was really excited when I told her about all the great links that you provide.

Yes! I think we do gain an insight into JKR's thought processes about James and the Marauders (who are like the boys in the leather jackets). JKR said once that she was a "bad role model." It is interesting that she said that and then she writes about Dudley and his gang standing on street corners throwing rocks at cars. I believe she is writing from experience, which makes me wonder where things are going with the Marauders. :huh:

You know, that's interesting. I always thought JKR was putting her personality more into Harry and the more I think of it now, there's some of her in James too. It jumps out even more when I read the articles about her not being perfect when she was young. Perhaps she too grew up enough to become a responsible adult and eventually be made Head Girl. Don't know if she'll make Harry Head Boy though after all the things she's told her daughter about that.

She did once mention that she used to be a bit like hermione when she was younger. It looks as if she made every major character out of some experience. Her amazing talent is seen when she develops those characters.

Maybe he feels an outcast for other reasons besides his infirmity, and lack of education would certainly be a good example.
Actually, I always thought that was so *looks around herself*.

He himself admitted in OoTP that he failed, and we also see this in SWM. Dumbledore must have realised this too, and maybe this is why he didn't appoint Lupin as Head Boy.
Dumbledore's selection always raises questions. He always has "his own reasons".

I wanted to ask one thing here, are heads of the houses more involved than dumbledore in the selection? After all they would know people better and have a closer watch on them. However great dumbledore is, however much he is able to percieve, I would have questions if it was his selection, alone. That may justify Draco's selection, in a way. There are other ways of justification, ofcourse.

This has been discussed before, but since we are talking about this topic, I would like to bring this here. Is snape pretending to like malfoy, to make Harry feel worse. Or does he really like malfoy?

I am really jumping from one topic to other today, so I will stop right here....

Sirius hating Snape:
I think SIP and Chievrefueil both have very good points about Sirius’s lack of mention of Snape’s background and involvement in the Dark Arts. :tu: However, I’m still wondering if Sirius’s words concerning Snape’s appearance are in fact meant to cover up what Sirius truly hates about Snape- namely his representation of the life that Sirius renounced and the very opposite of what Sirius wanted to become. As SIP said, Sirius has been known to be deceptive in some cases. I agree with gottaloveLupin that this is likely not to be the only reason that Sirius hates Snape. Like FireInTheSky said, it’s possible that initially, Sirius’s hatred against Snape was sparked by the fact that Snape came from a background similar to Sirius’s and the fact that he seemed to be very adept in the Dark Arts. However, as the years went on, the hatred Sirius felt for Snape might have shifted to be more focused on who Snape was as a person (though I imagine his ideals would factor into things here). So in the end, I feel it is highly possible that there are many reasons why Sirius hates Snape, but I believe the fact that Snape represented everything Sirius had rejected tipped the scales, so to speak, on Sirius’s hatred for Snape.

I think one reason why Sirius didn’t harp on Snape’s being an evil wizard involved in the Dark Arts during SWM was because he was thinking more about what would hurt Snape the most. I believe that in this instance, attacking Snape’s appearance was the easiest way to attack him, and it was the way that would cause the most damage to Snape’s image. In attacking Snape’s appearance, there’s not much Snape can say in return to defend himself. Besides, when you are trying to publicly humiliate someone, going after their appearance is the easiest way to point out their differences. Furthermore, this would have helped paint the “oddball” image that Sirius claims Snape had. I’d actually like to reference something shaggydogstail said on the ‘All about Sirius’ thread (I hope she doesn’t mind): Tormenting Snape allowed Sirius perhaps an unconscious revenge on his family, by making it clear that at Hogwarts it was people like Snape who were the outcasts, not him.I think this sums up an attitude Sirius might have had toward Snape. :tu:

Also about Sirius’s family being Slytherin- it’s probably not a stretch to say that most of them were, however, even if they weren’t, I think we’ve seen some evidence that they at least had some “Slytherin” ideologies, such as pureblood supremacy and prejudice against so-called “half-breeds”. Though that’s not to say that all Slytherins feel this way, nor is it to say that anyone who isn’t a Slytherin believes this way.


Snape’s progression from “victim” to aggressor:
I agree with what was said on this subject: that after SWM, the tide seemed to turn and Snape began to go after James, despite whatever changes occurred in James’s personality. I also agree that Snape would have had no way of knowing or no reason to think that James had changed at all, so he would have “never lost an opportunity to curse* James”.

*I do believe Lupin was referring to Snape performing magical rather than verbal curses here, though I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume that Snape was verbally attacking James as well.


James’s morality level:
Despite the arguments being there for James being stuck at level 3, I’ve always thought he did in fact progress to at least level 4, if not level 5. For one thing, I find it hard to believe that someone would sacrifice his life for his family just because it is expected of him- that is a big expectation. I truly feel that James did move on to the next level- from what JKR says about James, she indicates that he was very brave in sacrificing his life for his wife and child. I just can’t see someone taking such a big step for the reason of it being expected of society. When faced with life and death, I think the idea of acceptance and expectation probably doesn’t enter in. Anyway, that’s the biggest problem I see with James remaining at level 3 throughout his life. Feel free to disagree. :)


Lupin and not being Head Boy:
Also, another point, is Lupin's reaction when Snape spills the beans at the end of PoA. He goes and packs his suitcase right away. Could this perhaps be an echo of what happened post Whomping Willow? Did he feel he couldn't stay at Hogwarts anymore after having put another student's (Snape's) life in danger, and so left, even if Dumbledore had promised it would be kept quiet?I’d like to suggest that perhaps instead of leaving the school after the Whomping Willow incident occurred, I believe Lupin may have handed in his prefect badge to Dumbledore. I can’t see Lupin leaving the school after all Dumbledore did to try to get him in- that’s a rather drastic step, whereas resigning in PoA doesn’t seem to be as drastic as (essentially) dropping out of school. Also I can’t imagine Dumbledore would have let him leave without reminding him that the WW incident was not his fault, and that he had no reason to leave. I can understand that Lupin may have had the sort of “leave to protect others” mentality, but I don’t believe he would have actually gone through with it. After all, his only friends were there- friends who for the first time in his life, made his transformations something other than hell. Also, Lupin seems to be a very academic student who had a love of learning. So for this reason, I can't see Lupin leaving school. And I just thought of something else: “She started going out with him in seventh year,” said Lupin.

“Once James had deflated his head a bit,” said Sirius.

“And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it,” said Lupin.

“Even Snape?” said Harry.

“Well,” said Lupin slowly, “Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn’t really expect James to take that lying down, could you?”From what Lupin says here and throughout this scene, it seems to indicate that he was actually there to witness James’s behavior. I can’t imagine him knowing because Sirius just told him these things. I don't know- call it a gut feeling, but I don't believe that Lupin left school.

As for why Dumbledore made Lupin a prefect, I agree 100% with gottaloveLupin: His reasons might have been the following:
1. he awarded Lupin for his grades and for his activity and for his general good behavior;
2. he wanted to give Lupin more confidence in his abilities, he wanted to helped him once more because he deserved his help.
3. he knew that Lupin would be a good prefect because he was gentle and kind and would help the younger children;
4. he wanted to make Lupin assume a role of leadership, as he saw that Lupin had some innate qualities within himself which made him, despite of his condition, a good leader.
5. and last but not least, he wanted to make James and Sirus more controllable. He hoped that James and Sirius would calm more under Lupin's influence, even if not completely. And he hoped that Lupin would take things more seriously when it came to James and Sirius's attitude, as he was a prefect and had more responsabilities.:tu: Excellent reasons!

Quote from RemusLupinFan:
Also, Lupin seems to be a very academic student who had a love of learning. So for this reason, I can't see Lupin leaving school.
Well I was reading RemusLupinFan's excellent post I came across this sentence. Now forgive me if I am missing some canon but do we really know that Lupin was that good of a student? I'm sure he wasn't a bad student but to describe him a "very academic" with a "love of learning" doesn't seem to have any support in canon (if I'm missing it please point it out). During SWM he's studying for his upcoming exam which is to be expected not marveled at for showing much he loves learning.

Jaguarundi: I think there are hints that Lupin was a good student, but not lots of information. He is studying for his next exam, at least, which none of the other Marauders are doing. He has done well on the DADA test, possibly because he knows alot about werewolves. :p He seems to be a sensible teacher in PoA, though his expectations are not very high for Harry. He keeps him from doing a boggart in class, and doesn't really expect him to learn how to do a patronus very quickly, since many adult wizards have trouble with it.

If Lupin knew how clever James and Lily were, why would he expect Harry to have trouble with these spells? I always wonder about that. It could be that the Marauders were excellent at the "flashy" magic (as Hermione says about the Twins) but not really as good at defensive spells? There is no evidence that any of the Marauders except Lupin knew how to do a patronus, is there? I assume they could, but we don't know what Sirius's patronus was, do we? Or James?

On other point about Lupin becoming a Prefect, does anyone see the irony in Dumbledore choosing the werewolf to keep control over James and Sirius - and failing? Even a werewolf couldn't control them, lol. :lol: Also, Dumbledore thought that he was choosing the "good boy" (as Sirius categorizes Lupin), yet Lupin was out roaming the countryside with the rest of them. He was the Prefect who not only looked the other way, like Ron, but followed the mischief-makers right out the door to roam around with them. I believe that has something to do with Dumbledore's disappointment in Lupin at the end of PoA - Lupin has deceived him for a long time.

The Head Boy Question: In the back of my mind, I keep thinking how satisfying it would be to me if neither Harry nor Ron became Head Boy! I wish Ernie McMillan or one of the other Hufflepuffs would become Head Boy, because they have probably followed the rules and told the truth ten times more than Harry. I just don't see why a Gryffindor has to be Head Boy every time.

Quote Silver Ink Pot:
Jaguarundi: I think there are hints that Lupin was a good student, but not lots of information. He is studying for his next exam, at least, which none of the other Marauders are doing. He has done well on the DADA test, possibly because he knows alot about werewolves. He seems to be a sensible teacher in PoA, though his expectations are not very high for Harry. He keeps him from doing a boggart in class, and doesn't really expect him to learn how to do a patronus very quickly, since many adult wizards have trouble with it.
Yes that's true. But I've always had the feeling that Lupin was the DADA expert of the Marauders. James is hinted to have been good a transfiguration (both because of his wand and the fact that he was an animagi). Also James, Sirius, and Peter were animagi by this time so that fact that they're not studying for the exam might not be that big a deal...they have shown themselves capable of handling an even more advanced type of transfiguration. Lupin, on the other hand, never studied to became an animagi so he'd have missed out on what they learned while they researched it.

While it's may implied in the books that Lupin is a good student I don't see him as being an amazing student nor anywhere near Hermione level (this is probably why I don't understand the Hermione/Lupin comparison). I'd view him more like a Harry...talented in one subject (DADA) and average to slightly above average in the rest.

Quote from Silver Ink Pot:
If Lupin knew how clever James and Lily were, why would he expect Harry to have trouble with these spells? I always wonder about that. It could be that the Marauders were excellent at the "flashy" magic (as Hermione says about the Twins) but not really as good at defensive spells? There is no evidence that any of the Marauders except Lupin knew how to do a patronus, is there? I assume they could, but we don't know what Sirius's patronus was, do we? Or James?
I can't find the quote but on the Red-Hen site there's an essay saying that James's patronus is a nose-biting teacup (it claims Rowling said that in an interview in 1999 or 2000 that slipped though the cracks). Also isn’t saying Harry should be a talented wizard because of his parents the same as saying Draco is evil because of his father (then Draco opened his mouth and removed all doubt).

Quote from silver ink pot:
The Head Boy Question: In the back of my mind, I keep thinking how satisfying it would be to me if neither Harry nor Ron became Head Boy! I wish Ernie McMillan or one of the other Hufflepuffs would become Head Boy, because they have probably followed the rules and told the truth ten times more than Harry. I just don't see why a Gryffindor has to be Head Boy every time.
I've heard that opinion expressed a number of times and kind of feel the same way especially if Ron gets the head boy-ship. But really the Gryffindors haven't got it that many times (Percy, Bill, amd James) which is 3 confirmed times in 20-odd years. Seems like a good balance to me.

by Jaguarundi While it's may implied in the books that Lupin is a good student I don't see him as being an amazing student nor anywhere near Hermione level (this is probably why I don't understand the Hermione/Lupin comparison). I'd view him more like a Harry...talented in one subject (DADA) and average to slightly above average in the rest.

I wonder why you think this. No canon to back this theory either. A lot of people think Lupin was a very good student because he seems to be such an intelligent man and because he seems to be very good at magic- he teaches Harry lots of things, he fights and gets unharmed in DOM, makes wandless magic etc. Moreover, he has survived so many years with his condition! I think that a person like this can't be just ordinary and good at DADA. He should be good at magic in general! Just my opinion, of course. As you've said, there isn't much canon. I could look for some quotes! Maybe we find something more!

I think there are hints that Lupin was a good student, but not lots of information. He is studying for his next exam, at least, which none of the other Marauders are doing. He has done well on the DADA test, possibly because he knows alot about werewolves. :p I agree with these reasons. I also think the way he was taking his DADA exam indicates he really cared about his performance:He looked rather pale and peaky (was the full moon approaching?) and was absorbed in the exam: As he reread his answers he scratched his chin with the end of his quill, frowning slightly. I guess I just see Lupin as being an outstanding student especially in DADA, who was just as clever as Sirius and James. From what we see of Lupin’s teaching ability and his magical talent (which is hinted at subtly), I feel that he must have been just as magically talented as his friends (excluding Peter). The way I see it though, Lupin may have had to work a bit harder than James and Sirius to achieve this high academic level- we see that Sirius and James can get good grades/perform magic correctly without even trying. But this is certainly not a bad thing, and I don’t believe it makes Lupin any less academically intelligent than James and Sirius if he had to study more and practice more to get good grades. In fact, this would kind of make him a better student than James and Sirius because this would have shown a greater effort and care on his part. As far as the comparison between Lupin and Hermione goes, all in all I believe Lupin was close enough to be compared to her in terms of academics.

He seems to be a sensible teacher in PoA, though his expectations are not very high for Harry. He keeps him from doing a boggart in class, and doesn't really expect him to learn how to do a patronus very quickly, since many adult wizards have trouble with it.

If Lupin knew how clever James and Lily were, why would he expect Harry to have trouble with these spells? I always wonder about that. First of all, no matter how talented anyone believed Harry to be, he was still only a thirteen-year-old wizard. I think at this point, it would be a bit unreasonable to expect Harry to be able to perform such complicated spells, especially because adult wizards have trouble with them. Lupin’s attitude with Harry was to show that he didn’t want Harry to get discouraged if he couldn’t perform the spell for precisely these reasons- we all know how hard Harry can be on himself if he doesn’t succeed in something he deems important, such as this. It’s not that he didn’t have faith in Harry, he was just being realistic.

Second, does it necessarily follow that if your parents are good at magic, then your offspring will be too? That kind of an attitude seems to right away set an expectation for the child to live up to the standards of his/her parents. That doesn’t seem fair to me.

While specific canon indicating that Lupin was a good student and intelligent is limited, he certainly comes across as academic--if nothing else, the dialogue that JKR gives the character is proof enough of his level of intelligence. And it isn't because she's not able to write at a level lower than her own intelligence!--Lockhart, Pansy, Crabbe/Goyle, and Pettigrew immediately spring to mind, with their varying degress of self delusion and sheer stupidity.

Lupin's one of those characters who, even though JKR doesn't come right out and have someone state his academic achievement, gives the reader the sense that he's sharp--just as you can't doubt the intelligence of McGonagall or Snape.

I've always had the sense that Lupin was the serious student of the Marauders--a little touch of the scholarship kid, as it were, who wants to make sure he proves he's worth having around. Part of it is the studying at the start of SWM, but it's also his comments about schooling in PoA, when he speaks of how unlikely it would have been for him to attend Hogwarts if not for Dumbledore. He remarks that "Other parents weren't likely to want their children exposed to me" (p. 353, US paper)--and that does make me wonder what exactly was Lupin's schooling before Hogwarts: his comment made me think of someone's being homeschooled. Another reason for being a little more concerned than either James or Sirius about the next exam--I pictured Lupin as a boy who didn't have much experience with school routines and schedules before Hogwarts, and so who was conscientious about such things as classes and exams. But--conscientious--not nervous and self doubting like Pettigrew, who gives no indication of any academic talent.

How's that for a speculation festival? : )

As for expectations for Harry because of his parents...well, Hagrid's the first to say it, in PS/SS: ""A wizard, o' course....an' a thumpin' good'un, I'd say, once yeh've been trained up a bit. With a mum an' dad like yours, what else would yeh be?" (p. 51, US paper). Harry is expected to be a very good, if not great, wizard based on his genes. Fortunately, he gets to prove--early--that genetics prove true in his case, unlike Neville who has to suffer expectations that he doesn't yet live up to.

If Lupin knew how clever James and Lily were, why would he expect Harry to have trouble with these spells? I always wonder about that. It could be that the Marauders were excellent at the "flashy" magic (as Hermione says about the Twins) but not really as good at defensive spells? There is no evidence that any of the Marauders except Lupin knew how to do a patronus, is there? I assume they could, but we don't know what Sirius's patronus was, do we? Or James?
The way I see it is that I believe that Lupin perhaps didn't believe Harry to be very good at magic, because he grew up with Muggles. Hermione did too, but she studies a lot, something Harry doesn't appear to do. Also, the Muggles he lives with hate magic and that gives him less of a chance to study it. Also I like the point that RemusLupinFan made about him not needing to be good at magic just because of who his parents are.
Moreover, he has survived so many years with his condition!
This is a good point, I believe that Lupin being a warewolf made him feel like he needed to prove himself, so I think he studied a lot like Hermione does to be good. Also, since Dumbledore took a chance on letting him in and believed in him, I think that Lupin wanted to show Dumbledore that he made a good decision, and it was very luck for him that he got accepted in, so I doubt that he would want to take his education for granted. That's just my speculation on Lupin's intelligence though.


While it's may implied in the books that Lupin is a good student I don't see him as being an amazing student nor anywhere near Hermione level (this is probably why I don't understand the Hermione/Lupin comparison). I'd view him more like a

While it's may implied in the books that Lupin is a good student I don't see him as being an amazing student nor anywhere near Hermione level (this is probably why I don't understand the Hermione/Lupin comparison).
I've always compared him to Hermione because I've tried to pair up one of the trio members with one of the Marauders (disincluding Pettigrew of course.) I've done this because I believe that JK Rowling has given us some parallels between the two groups, i.e. a group of close-knit friends, they get into some trouble, and to use a quote (this is Harry watching the Marauders, so "they" is in reference to the Marauders.) "They stopped in the shade of the very same beech tree on the edge of the lake where Harry, Ron, and Hermione had spent a Sunday finishing their homework, and threw themselves down on the grass." (OotP page 644 U.S. hardback edition.) I'll be the first to point out that this could be mearly a coincidence, but I don't think it is, because it's not an important detail, and to me it seems like JK Rowling is trying to show us a parallel between the two groups.

Subtle: Yes, when we speculate, it's not just whistling in the wind, it's a Festival!!! :rotfl:

The way I see it though, Lupin may have had to work a bit harder than James and Sirius to achieve this high academic level- we see that Sirius and James can get good grades/perform magic correctly without even trying. But this is certainly not a bad thing, and I don’t believe it makes Lupin any less academically intelligent than James and Sirius if he had to study more and practice more to get good grades. In fact, this would kind of make him a better student than James and Sirius because this would have shown a greater effort and care on his part. As far as the comparison between Lupin and Hermione goes, all in all I believe Lupin was close enough to be compared to her in terms of academics.

I totally agree about James and Sirius - they are the students for whom things seem to come easily. Remus at least seems to be thinking about his exams and not ready to party. :p

I'm not sure I agree about the Hermione part. I truly see her as a parallel to Snape - not always pleasant, a know-it-all, gifted but not well-liked (remember Book One), and not that great with a broom (remember Snape as a referree and in his memory on the broom, and then Hermione trying to fly in Book One). As a prefect, Lupin doesn't act like Hermione, for instance, even though he does seem to act as the conscience of the Marauders.

I could go on and on about Hermione/Snape parallels, but I won't, and everyone will like me better, lol. :angel:

First of all, no matter how talented anyone believed Harry to be, he was still only a thirteen-year-old wizard. I think at this point, it would be a bit unreasonable to expect Harry to be able to perform such complicated spells, especially because adult wizards have trouble with them. Lupin’s attitude with Harry was to show that he didn’t want Harry to get discouraged if he couldn’t perform the spell for precisely these reasons- we all know how hard Harry can be on himself if he doesn’t succeed in something he deems important, such as this. It’s not that he didn’t have faith in Harry, he was just being realistic.

Except, except, except . . . that James, Sirius, and even slow Peter were able to learn to become animagi, which is advanced magic. It took them a long time, but they were as young as Harry. I just thought he was a little too easy on Harry, especially since he knows all the troubles Harry is having with the dementors.

Second, does it necessarily follow that if your parents are good at magic, then your offspring will be too? That kind of an attitude seems to right away set an expectation for the child to live up to the standards of his/her parents. That doesn’t seem fair to me.
You are right - it isn't fair, but people still have expectations, as we see over and over. That is the "Lesson of Neville," it seems to me. We are told that his parents were popular aurors who were gifted, and everyone seems to hold Neville up to that standard. On the other hand, Harry's father was a trouble-maker, so Snape expects him to be just like James. You could say that Sirius expects the same thing from Harry.

But the "Lesson of Neville" is that no one is really exactly like their parents.

Maybe I am being too hard on Lupin, since he is one of the few people who doesn't hold Harry to the standard of James - except in the movie in which Lupin makes that speech about Harry bein just like his parents, lol. :rolleyes: Those stupid movies!

While specific canon indicating that Lupin was a good student and intelligent is limited, he certainly comes across as academic--if nothing else, the dialogue that JKR gives the character is proof enough of his level of intelligence. And it isn't because she's not able to write at a level lower than her own intelligence!--Lockhart, Pansy, Crabbe/Goyle, and Pettigrew immediately spring to mind, with their varying degress of self delusion and sheer stupidity.

That's a good point that you have, and it made me think of another reason why I believe that Lupin was intelligent. Your use of Lockhart as an example made me realize that not many of the defense teachers have been very good teachers, or taught very useful things. Thus I believe that JK Rowling has tried to show us that the defense teachers have not been very intelligent, aside from Lupin. Again though, more speculation, although since there's not much canon to go either way, as was pointed out earlier, then most points are pretty much going to be speculation.


I'm not sure I agree about the Hermione part. I truly see her as a parallel to Snape - not always pleasant, a know-it-all, gifted but not well-liked (remember Book One), and not that great with a broom (remember Snape as a referree and in his memory on the broom, and then Hermione trying to fly in Book One). As a prefect, Lupin doesn't act like Hermione, for instance, even though he does seem to act as the conscience of the Marauders.
Interesting, I don't see Hermione as being more of a parallel to Snape, now I'm seeing her as more of a parallel to Lily, but since this isn't a Hermione thread I won't go into it, and I don't think that we have enough canon about any of the Marauder-era kids to have any proof of whom she's more of a parallel to.



Except, except, except . . . that James, Sirius, and even slow Peter were able to learn to become animagi, which is advanced magic. It took them a long time, but they were as young as Harry. I just thought he was a little too easy on Harry, especially since he knows all the troubles Harry is having with the dementors.
Good point, I hadn't thought about that, however, we don't know how long it took them to become Animagi, or even really how old they were. (to my recollection that is, someone correct me if I'm wrong, which I probably am. :blush:) We also don't know how much Pettigrew was helped by the others. Harry was quite young when he learned the patronus, and Lupin may not have expected a thirteen year old to be able to do so, any thirteen year old, who hasn't even had the best DADA teachers in the past.

we don't know how long it took them to become Animagi, or even really how old they were. (to my recollection that is, someone correct me if I'm wrong, which I probably am. ) We also don't know how much Pettigrew was helped by the others. Harry was quite young when he learned the patronus, and Lupin may not have expected a thirteen year old to be able to do so, any thirteen year old, who hasn't even had the best DADA teachers in the past.

Fire in the Sky: In Chapter 18 of PoA, Lupin tells how long it took to become Animagi. They were as young as Harry when they started:

"It took them the best part of three years to work out how to do it. Your father and Sirius here were the cleverest students in the school, and lucky they were, because the Animagus transformation can go horribly wrong -- one reason the Ministry keeps close watch on those attempting to do it. Peter needed all the help he could get from James and Sirius. Finally, in our fifth year they managed it. They could each turn into a different animal at will."

I do always wonder if their other studies suffered while they worked so hard on their secret studies. :huh:

Fire in the Sky: In Chapter 18 of PoA, Lupin tells how long it took to become Animagi. They were as young as Harry when they started:
Thanks, I knew I was missing it somewhere, unfortunetely, I haven't had the opportunity to re-read the first four books in quite sometime, I barely was able to re-read the fifth book, with English reading lists and all. :blush:


I do always wonder if their other studies suffered while they worked so hard on their secret studies. :huh:
Interesting thought, I'd say they probably would have, since it was very advanced magic that took a lot of time to complete. It would however, just depend on them, and how much effort they were able to put into their other studies. Also, depending on if one person took on most of the work, then that person's studies may or may not have been effected, while the others would probably be the same.

I guess I just see Lupin as being an outstanding student especially in DADA, who was just as clever as Sirius and James. From what we see of Lupin’s teaching ability and his magical talent (which is hinted at subtly), I feel that he must have been just as magically talented as his friends (excluding Peter). The way I see it though, Lupin may have had to work a bit harder than James and Sirius to achieve this high academic level- we see that Sirius and James can get good grades/perform magic correctly without even trying. But this is certainly not a bad thing, and I don’t believe it makes Lupin any less academically intelligent than James and Sirius if he had to study more and practice more to get good grades. In fact, this would kind of make him a better student than James and Sirius because this would have shown a greater effort and care on his part. As far as the comparison between Lupin and Hermione goes, all in all I believe Lupin was close enough to be compared to her in terms of academics.
(I'm not picking on you, this just seemed the best comment to put what I'm going to say in context)

We should bear in mind that there is a great deal of difference between talent, intelligence, and academics. Being good at one or two of these things does not automatically make you good at the third.

Hmmm....Pettigrew, again. I stand by my opinion that everyone seriously underestimates the little rat. He is lazy and has no morals. That doesn't mean he isn't talented or smart. It would probably indicate he isn't at the top of his game academically, though.

It calls to mind the laziness typical of those who are naturally talented. A little effort produces good results, and so when the usual amount of effort doesn't bear fruit, the naturally talented person is more likely to give up and presume that things aren't working out than someone who has to apply a lot of effort for everything in general. In such cases, one who is less "talented" can actually go further than a gifted person, through sheer perseverance. Perhaps Peter is gifted, but lazy.

My question for those who believe Lupin was at the top of the class and comparable to Hermione is: why did he say that Sirius and James were the "cleverest in the school"? Why didn't he say, "We were the cleverest in the school"?

Maybe he is just humble, but it makes me wonder. We also know that Snape was in the school at the same time, and he must have been at the top of the class, too. How many valedictorians can one class have?

However, I just don't believe that Pettigrew was at the top of the class. That doesn't mean he was a total loser, though. He hung around with the "bright lights" and that might have diminished him, or made him feel inferior. But that is what he chose to do.

When you look at Harry's group, Hermione really stands alone academically. Harry is better at sports and defense, and when Ron is made prefect, Harry realizes he is no better in class than Ron is. I think that is significant because in most groups, it is obvious who the geniuses are, and Harry isn't one of them. I believe, however, that Sirius thought that James, Lupin, and himself, were all equally superior - even to Snape - and that is a flaw in his thinking.

I don't think that Lupin was equivalent to Hermione; in fact, he seems to share few of her qualities. I think silver ink pot's observation that he classifies James and Sirius as the 'clever' ones is not only quite good, but also points out the difference. Even if he were just being modest--that's nothing Hermione would say.

The behavior of the characters during the DADA exam in SWM is revealing. James is re-reading his exam: at five minutes to go, he's finished, but he is checking it. Sirius, apparently, is long since done--he's "lounging," tilting the chair back. Lupin is still working, re-reading his exam and frowning (Harry notes that he looks "pale and peaky"--and there's another reason for Lupin's studiousness: he loses days each month to illness and must catch up in his studies). Pettigrew looks "anxious," he's fidgeting, and he looks over "hopefully at his neighbor's paper" (p. 642, US hardcover). When he can't get all the signs of a werewolf, as he tells his friends shortly after, I'm afraid one would have to assume...like James...that Pettigrew is a bit thick. He may be cunning and deceitful, but there's no clue whatsoever that he has any academic talent at all (please note his willingness to cheat in the midst of the exam).

It's Sirius, of the Marauders, who display the traits of the gifted student who knows he's aced the exam and needn't do anything more--who may, in fact, be a bit lazy, simply because he knows not only the material, but exactly how much and what he has to do for a top mark...and he doesn't have to do anything further than that. He confirms this with his later comment, about Transfiguration: "I don't need to look at that rubbish, I know it all" (p. 645). As with Pettigrew's behavior earlier during the exam, this comment is quite revealing about Sirius' character--what he views as his strength is, actually, a weakness: he may think he 'knows it all'...but that's just not possible....He, like Hermione, qualifies for the Insufferable Know-It-All, but Hermione lacks Sirius's (overbearing) confidence in being one.

Of all of them, it is Snape who's doing the most Hermione-like thing at the five-minute mark: "His hand was flying across the parchment; he had written at least a foot more than his closest neighbors, and yet his handwriting was miniscule and cramped" (p. 641). And, of course, poring over the exam paper from the moment he hands in his responses--the implication being that, unlike James and Lupin, he didn't stop writing until the final seconds, and so Snape's check of his answer comes after the exam is over (I'll give him The Compulsive Nerd Award for this). He doesn't have friends to torment with an endless re-hash of the exam, but he's definitely showing classic Hermione behavior; clearly, he knew the material inside and out (the description of his hand "flying"), but he's got to check it all over again, anyway.

Of all of them, it is Snape who's doing the most Hermione-like thing at the five-minute mark: "His hand was flying across the parchment; he had written at least a foot more than his closest neighbors, and yet his handwriting was miniscule and cramped" (p. 641). And, of course, poring over the exam paper from the moment he hands in his responses--the implication being that, unlike James and Lupin, he didn't stop writing until the final seconds, and so Snape's check of his answer comes after the exam is over (I'll give him The Compulsive Nerd Award for this). He doesn't have friends to torment with an endless re-hash of the exam, but he's definitely showing classic Hermione behavior; clearly, he knew the material inside and out (the description of his hand "flying"), but he's got to check it all over again, anyway.
Could this be another reason why he seems to detest Hermione being a 'know-it-all'? I know that he dislikes her for being friends with Harry, and for being far more clever than any of his own students (He seems to be a bit of a perfectionist). Hermione displays similar qualities to those that he obviously posessed (and prized). This would remind him of the past, and we know about his experience of school. Thoughts?

Alfonzo--Suddenly, reading your post...I realized: Snape doesn't know that Hermione ever expresses any doubts about what she knows. The reader knows this, because she frets to Harry and Ron about her minor mistakes and omissions--but there's no way Snape ever hears this. Therefore: what if his dislike of Hermione the Know-It-All stems from his assigning her to the role of Sirius?

It would fit his character: he also doesn't see the correspondences between himself and Harry, focusing instead on the similarities between Harry and the despised James. We can see how much he has in common with Hermione, but Snape sees the Know-It-All who used to hang around with James--life repeats itself yet again for Snape. He only perceives her as an overbearing show-off; he lacks the rest of the picture that the reader gets. It also would lend a context to his vicious, "I see no difference."

Could this be another reason why he seems to detest Hermione being a 'know-it-all'? I know that he dislikes her for being friends with Harry, and for being far more clever than any of his own students (He seems to be a bit of a perfectionist). Hermione displays similar qualities to those that he obviously posessed (and prized). This would remind him of the past, and we know about his experience of school. Thoughts?

A good idea, I hadn't think about that. Well, adding my own thoughts, I believe that if what you said is true about him resenting her because she resembles him, then perhaps he also doesn't like her because she is similar to him, but she has what he didn't appear to, close-knit friends, she has Harry and Ron to stick up for her when she's getting picked on, but nobody except Lily, whom he just insulted, sticks up for Snape, but his insulting her leads me to believe that they weren't friends. So Snape doesn't have those friends willing to stick up for him like Hermione does, which is a resemblence of the Marauders.

Alfonzo--Suddenly, reading your post...I realized: Snape doesn't know that Hermione ever expresses any doubts about what she knows. The reader knows this, because she frets to Harry and Ron about her minor mistakes and omissions--but there's no way Snape ever hears this. Therefore: what if his dislike of Hermione the Know-It-All stems from his assigning her to the role of Sirius?
Interesting, if you didn't know that Hermione wasn't exactly as she acts in classes, she would appear to be more arrogant of her knowledge, like Sirius appeared to be, however; there is then still the matter of her willing to go above and beyond what the assignment called for, like you said that Sirius didn't seem to do, but Snape did.

Are we getting a tad bit off topic though?

Hmmm....Pettigrew, again. I stand by my opinion that everyone seriously underestimates the little rat. He is lazy and has no morals. That doesn't mean he isn't talented or smart. It would probably indicate he isn't at the top of his game academically, though.
But James and Sirius did say that he needed help for becoming an anigamus. But ofcourse, he may not be as smart as the others but maybe quite okay. After all, the world is not divided into intelligent and fools ;)

Talking about know-it-all business, there is a huge difference in how a teacher sees such a person and how students do. Usually a person like that has very few friends or no friends at all. But in many cases he/she is liked by teachers. Teachers assess the attitude, yes, but in a more matured way.(presuming snape is mature enough;) ) And don't you think Draco too acts like a know it all, at times? At least I do. Hermione, if had been in slytherin, would have been liked by snape, IMHO. It is just that she is harry's friend and a griffindor....

I don't think that Lupin was equivalent to Hermione; in fact, he seems to share few of her qualities. I think silver ink pot's observation that he classifies James and Sirius as the 'clever' ones is not only quite good, but also points out the difference. Even if he were just being modest--that's nothing Hermione would say.

The behavior of the characters during the DADA exam in SWM is revealing. James is re-reading his exam: at five minutes to go, he's finished, but he is checking it. Sirius, apparently, is long since done--he's "lounging," tilting the chair back. Lupin is still working, re-reading his exam and frowning (Harry notes that he looks "pale and peaky"--and there's another reason for Lupin's studiousness: he loses days each month to illness and must catch up in his studies). Pettigrew looks "anxious," he's fidgeting, and he looks over "hopefully at his neighbor's paper" (p. 642, US hardcover). When he can't get all the signs of a werewolf, as he tells his friends shortly after, I'm afraid one would have to assume...like James...that Pettigrew is a bit thick. He may be cunning and deceitful, but there's no clue whatsoever that he has any academic talent at all (please note his willingness to cheat in the midst of the exam).

It's Sirius, of the Marauders, who display the traits of the gifted student who knows he's aced the exam and needn't do anything more--who may, in fact, be a bit lazy, simply because he knows not only the material, but exactly how much and what he has to do for a top mark...and he doesn't have to do anything further than that. He confirms this with his later comment, about Transfiguration: "I don't need to look at that rubbish, I know it all" (p. 645). As with Pettigrew's behavior earlier during the exam, this comment is quite revealing about Sirius' character--what he views as his strength is, actually, a weakness: he may think he 'knows it all'...but that's just not possible....He, like Hermione, qualifies for the Insufferable Know-It-All, but Hermione lacks Sirius's (overbearing) confidence in being one.

Of all of them, it is Snape who's doing the most Hermione-like thing at the five-minute mark: "His hand was flying across the parchment; he had written at least a foot more than his closest neighbors, and yet his handwriting was miniscule and cramped" (p. 641). And, of course, poring over the exam paper from the moment he hands in his responses--the implication being that, unlike James and Lupin, he didn't stop writing until the final seconds, and so Snape's check of his answer comes after the exam is over (I'll give him The Compulsive Nerd Award for this). He doesn't have friends to torment with an endless re-hash of the exam, but he's definitely showing classic Hermione behavior; clearly, he knew the material inside and out (the description of his hand "flying"), but he's got to check it all over again, anyway.

Subtle, this is brilliant and right on the money!

I don't think this is off-topic, because we are trying to connect that generation with this generation, and Hermione is the one who is seen after the OWL exam poring over her answers (Nerd Award :tu: ). In fact, Ron has chastised her at least once because he doesn't want to go over the answers after a test!

Alfonzo--Suddenly, reading your post...I realized: Snape doesn't know that Hermione ever expresses any doubts about what she knows. The reader knows this, because she frets to Harry and Ron about her minor mistakes and omissions--but there's no way Snape ever hears this. Therefore: what if his dislike of Hermione the Know-It-All stems from his assigning her to the role of Sirius?

:clap: I never thought of this! Perfect point! ;)

Except, except, except . . . that James, Sirius, and even slow Peter were able to learn to become animagi, which is advanced magic. It took them a long time, but they were as young as Harry. I just thought he was a little too easy on Harry, especially since he knows all the troubles Harry is having with the dementors.Yes this is true, but it goes back to the fact that Lupin believes Harry is his own person, regardless of what his parents could do. That’s not to say that he didn’t think Harry could do it, because I don’t think Lupin thought that. Rather, he didn’t want to push Harry. He wanted let Harry call the shots here, especially since Harry was the one who wanted to learn and due to the emotional nature of what he was learning. Lupin didn’t want Harry to feel like he had to continue if he wasn't comfortable doing so.


Lupin, Hermione and academics
I can agree that Lupin isn't exactly like Hermione in his academic studies in both attitude and workmanship. The comparison between he and Hermione only works loosely in differentiating between Lupin's academic attitude and that of his friends. The connection I see is that Lupin was very studious like Hermione, and that he had a fair amount of magical talent similar to Hermione's. But I can agree that he may not have been quite on the same level of excellence as Hermione is, though that doesn't mean he wasn't an above-average student. After all, Hermione is a bit insane at times. :p I also don't see Lupin as a perfectionist the way I think Hermione is.

I also agree that Lupin and Hermione really aren't analogous in terms of temperament as teenagers. In fact, Lupin is more like Ron than Hermione, in that he was unwilling (for whatever reason- I'm just looking at his actions at this point) to intervene when his friends were tormenting Snape like Ron was unwilling to intervene when his brothers were doing things they shouldn't. I see Lupin also as being someone who was introverted as a teen (though to the degree that Snape was), whereas Hermione doesn't appear introverted. So overall, I don't think Lupin was much like Hermione in terms of personality.


Hermione and Snape
I am intrigued by the connection that was made between Snape and Hermione- I actually think it does have merit, in terms of academic attitude. In fact, Snape does appear to exhibit Hermione-like behavior by going back over his exam questions in SWM. I'm also intrigued by the possibility that Snape sees a bit of Sirius's attitude in Hermione when she's in class and demonstrating her "know-it-all-ness" (for lack of a better term).

silver ink pot--Thanks. *blush* too kind....

asrivathan--There's a difference between an Insufferable Know It All and an intelligent student. In my experience, most teachers do enjoy the intelligent students, with whom one can have interesting and illuminating conversations--these students are the nerds who are invariably despised by the other students, who may very well classify them as Know It Alls. However, the Know It All is rather like Hermione on her worst days--never puts down the hand, wants to dominate every class, and blurts out answers if not called upon...The other students don't stand a chance; the teacher barely stands a chance of getting in a word.

I don't think we're off topic...although I apologize if it's the Snape stuff that makes anyone feel that way...For myself, I feel as if I've finally figured out something, both about Snape's attitude toward Sirius and toward Hermione; it seems to fit with Snape's dwelling on the past, like a piece of the puzzle just dropped into place.

I don't think we're off topic...although I apologize if it's the Snape stuff that makes anyone feel that way...For myself, I feel as if I've finally figured out something, both about Snape's attitude toward Sirius and toward Hermione; it seems to fit with Snape's dwelling on the past, like a piece of the puzzle just dropped into place.
Sorry, I wasn't sure, so I thought it was safer to bring it up. I don't mind the discussion at all. :)

I also agree that Lupin and Hermione really aren't analogous in terms of temperament as teenagers. In fact, Lupin is more like Ron than Hermione, in that he was unwilling (for whatever reason- I'm just looking at his actions at this point) to intervene when his friends were tormenting Snape like Ron was unwilling to intervene when his brothers were doing things they shouldn't. I see Lupin also as being someone who was introverted as a teen (though to the degree that Snape was), whereas Hermione doesn't appear introverted. So overall, I don't think Lupin was much like Hermione in terms of personality.
The reason I don't parallel Lupin to Ron, is that Ron just sits by and allows things to go on that he knows shouldn't and later does nothing about it. While Lupin appears to look the other way and not stop his friends from doing something wrong, he does after the fact, appear to make them realize that what they have done is wrong. (This is Sirius talking to Lupin) "'Yeah, well,' said Sirius, 'you made us feel ashamed of ourselves sometimes... That was something...'" (OotP, page 671 U.S. Hardback edition)

The reason I don't parallel Lupin to Ron, is that Ron just sits by and allows things to go on that he knows shouldn't and later does nothing about it. While Lupin appears to look the other way and not stop his friends from doing something wrong, he does after the fact, appear to make them realize that what they have done is wrong. (This is Sirius talking to Lupin) "'Yeah, well,' said Sirius, 'you made us feel ashamed of ourselves sometimes... That was something...'" (OotP, page 671 U.S. Hardback edition)You're right, this is connection between Lupin and Ron only works loosely if you look at their actions at these moments, disregarding their reactions to the situation afterward (just for the record, I don't necessarily parallel Ron to Lupin either- in my above post I was only trying to show the difference between Lupin's and Hermione's temperaments). There is definitely a difference between the way Ron and Lupin react to their friends'/brothers' rule-breaking. Ron is much more relaxed about it and I would argue (in terms of reasoning now) that Ron didn't really think it was all that important to let his brothers know that what they were doing was wrong. I don't think we see him confront them to tell them off or make them feel ashamed for breaking the rules (although what they did was nothing compared to what James and Sirius did). On the other hand, we've discussed at length that Lupin made the effort to make his friends feel ashamed of themselves.

But James and Sirius did say that he needed help for becoming an anigamus. But ofcourse, he may not be as smart as the others but maybe quite okay. After all, the world is not divided into intelligent and fools
Quite true, but as I said, Pettigrew is lazy. Why do the work yourself, if someone else will do it for you? Talent doesn't mean extraordinary intelligence. Sometimes it is no more than gut instinct. It would be easy to let James/Sirius do all the work on figuring out how to do it, then use their work and his own talent to become an animagus.

(Subtle, I like your thoughts on Snape's perception of Hermione)

I think the parallels between the Marauders and the Trio only work to a point...in fact, I think it's the differences that are the important bits. As is the case with several of the mirrors in the books, nobody is exactly the same as someone else--just as no one is in real life. JKR keeps showing similarities, but also points to the differences, emphasizing how slight alterations in in circumstances can result in the variety of human responses. So, even though both Lupin and Ron avoid confrontation in public--the whys and hows of their doing so are not the same...

(thanks, clkginny!)

The probem with the Snape, Hermione parallels is she is more forgiving and tolerent. alot nicer too

I think the parallels between the Marauders and the Trio only work to a point...in fact, I think it's the differences that are the important bits. As is the case with several of the mirrors in the books, nobody is exactly the same as someone else--just as no one is in real life. JKR keeps showing similarities, but also points to the differences, emphasizing how slight alterations in in circumstances can result in the variety of human responses. So, even though both Lupin and Ron avoid confrontation in public--the whys and hows of their doing so are not the same...

To me, the obvious difference between the trio and the Marauders is that none of them have become Animagi. I believe that is symbolic, because while it might be fun to develop your "animal" side, I feel JKR is saying that developing your human side is more important. I believe even Prof. McGonagall would agree with that.

Quote from Silver Ink Pot:
My question for those who believe Lupin was at the top of the class and comparable to Hermione is: why did he say that Sirius and James were the "cleverest in the school"? Why didn't he say, "We were the cleverest in the school"?

Maybe he is just humble, but it makes me wonder. We also know that Snape was in the school at the same time, and he must have been at the top of the class, too. How many valedictorians can one class have?
I think Lupin was probably pretty close to the truth with his statement that James and Sirius were the cleverest in school (Lily was also in their year). While I believe that Snape is intelligent and was obviously a good student I've always felt that (and I know the Hermione/Snape comparison is booting around) Snape is more like Harry...a kind of street-smarts or practical magic whereas the Marauders and Hermione tend to more of book smarts. Just my opinion.

Quote from clkginny:
We should bear in mind that there is a great deal of difference between talent, intelligence, and academics. Being good at one or two of these things does not automatically make you good at the third.
Too true.

Quote from clkginny:
Quite true, but as I said, Pettigrew is lazy. Why do the work yourself, if someone else will do it for you? Talent doesn't mean extraordinary intelligence. Sometimes it is no more than gut instinct. It would be easy to let James/Sirius do all the work on figuring out how to do it, then use their work and his own talent to become an animagus.
In the same train of thought is don't re-invent the wheel. While it can be said that Peter is lazy it could also be that James and Sirius are just better at transfiguration then him and are good teachers.

Jaguarundi: Snape may indeed have street smarts, but he also seems very well-educated. W

We never actually see James in the canon reading a book, a newspaper, or anything but his OWL test paper.

I also think that Hermione is excellent at practical magic. She can make fires, dry clothes with her wand, make potions, and clean up efficiently. We rarely see many others doing such practical things.

I’d like to suggest that perhaps instead of leaving the school after the Whomping Willow incident occurred, I believe Lupin may have handed in his prefect badge to Dumbledore. I can’t see Lupin leaving the school after all Dumbledore did to try to get him in- that’s a rather drastic step, whereas resigning in PoA doesn’t seem to be as drastic as (essentially) dropping out of school. Also I can’t imagine Dumbledore would have let him leave without reminding him that the WW incident was not his fault, and that he had no reason to leave. I can understand that Lupin may have had the sort of “leave to protect others” mentality, but I don’t believe he would have actually gone through with it. After all, his only friends were there- friends who for the first time in his life, made his transformations something other than hell. Also, Lupin seems to be a very academic student who had a love of learning. So for this reason, I can't see Lupin leaving school. And I just thought of something else:
:agree: You are right, RemusLupinFan.
But the "Lesson of Neville" is that no one is really exactly like their parents.
I read that there is no guarantee that intelligent parents will have intelligent children. In one study, the IQ of the parents and children were compared: It turned out that of the very bright parents, the children were spread in the categories very bright, bright and normal. Of the very dim parents, the children were spread in the categories very dim, dim and normal. (Can't remember if these were the actual names of the categories, perhaps they were a bot more politically correct.) So there seemed to be some correspondence, but also a lot of variation. Another point is that the social environment means a lot. A child who grows up in a loving and stimulating environment typically scores higher on IQ tests than a child who grows up with a lack of these things. (This doesn't sound good for Harry - could he have been even more intelligent than he is if he had grown up with James and Lily?)
Here is a link about intelligence, parents, children and environment:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/intelligence/clever.shtmlI don't think we're off topic...although I apologize if it's the Snape stuff that makes anyone feel that way...For myself, I feel as if I've finally figured out something, both about Snape's attitude toward Sirius and toward Hermione; it seems to fit with Snape's dwelling on the past, like a piece of the puzzle just dropped into place.

I think your point about Snape seeing Sirius in Hermione is brilliant, Subtle! :clap:
The only thing is that I can't quite picture Sirius as having his hand up all the time. I can rather see him playing with something else in class, because he knows the curriculum already, and gets bored. Hermione pays attention all the time, and hangs on to every word the teacher says. Sirius, I believe, would feel he knows it all after ten minutes, and after that he doesn't need to practice or pay attention anymore.

Thanks, Norbertha. I also don't think that Sirius would necessarily have his hand in the air all the time--he strikes me more as the type who would learn the lesson, get bored, and look for trouble, rather than move the lseeon along by volunteering...However, someone who can make the pronouncement of "I know it all" to his friends doesn't seem the type to hide that attitude in general. Hermione's behavior, if you don't know her personally--as the reader does through Harry--also seems quite arrogant and overbearing.

silver ink pot--Interesting point about the 'animal' nature. Another point, tangentially connected, is that the Marauders broke rules for their own amusement; the Trio breaks rules for causes--only occasionally for their own amusement (such as Harry's going to Hogsmeade illegally).

As for Snape's intelligence--I think it's much the same as picking up on Lupin's intelligence. There are a few indications in canon--his DADA exam, his knowledge of obscure magic, his encyclopedic knowledge of potions--but the biggest tell is his speech. Even his insults are elegantly composed: he speaks far too well not to be intelligent and educated--in fact, he wields both as weapons when he composes those sarcastic barbs.

Thanks, Norbertha. I also don't think that Sirius would necessarily have his hand in the air all the time--he strikes me more as the type who would learn the lesson, get bored, and look for trouble, rather than move the lseeon along by volunteering...However, someone who can make the pronouncement of "I know it all" to his friends doesn't seem the type to hide that attitude in general. Hermione's behavior, if you don't know her personally--as the reader does through Harry--also seems quite arrogant and overbearing.
It is also hard to tell the difference between self-confidence and arrogance, at times. Hermione is very self-confident about her academics, but not herself. Sirius is arrogant about his academics, but not himself. That is an interesting foil.

silver ink pot--Interesting point about the 'animal' nature. Another point, tangentially connected, is that the Marauders broke rules for their own amusement; the Trio breaks rules for causes--only occasionally for their own amusement (such as Harry's going to Hogsmeade illegally).
We also don't know how different Hogwarts was during the time the Marauders attended. It may be that they would have broke the rules for causes, had there been the same type of problems going on during their years. Probably something that we are destined never to know for sure.

As for Snape's intelligence--I think it's much the same as picking up on Lupin's intelligence. There are a few indications in canon--his DADA exam, his knowledge of obscure magic, his encyclopedic knowledge of potions--but the biggest tell is his speech. Even his insults are elegantly composed: he speaks far too well not to be intelligent and educated--in fact, he wields both as weapons when he composes those sarcastic barbs.
:evil: :tu: :rotfl:

Thanks, Norbertha. I also don't think that Sirius would necessarily have his hand in the air all the time--he strikes me more as the type who would learn the lesson, get bored, and look for trouble

Subtle, that is typical of gifted kids, isn't it? That was my older bro's trouble - and pitfall. They get into trouble, while not working much and having good grades- so the parents and teachers "close their eyes" temporarily. Until they get so bored they don't know what do do with their life, and don't study anymore, and then get into real trouble and real bad grades.

Hmmm, Sirius as a gifted underachiever ;) Any comment?

I don't think Sirius was an underachiever--I believe it's McGonagall in PoA who refers to James and Sirius' being at the top of the class. He seems to have too much pride to allow the grade point average to slip. I meant he just seemed the type to sit back in class and draw rude pictures or chuck a Dungbomb, to liven things up; if he participated, I suspect he might be along the lines of, 'I can't believe the rest of you can't answer that.'

I don't see the Hermione/Sirius comparison, especially not from Snape's POV. Snape hated Hermione from Day One, even before she befriended Harry and Ron, so we can't say that he hates her because she reminds him of Sirius. I'm not convinced at all that that's true. (Recall the first potions class when he ignored her and then yelled at her for keeping her hand up?)

In school and in classes Sirius was the BMOC (Big Man on Campus) who was full of himself. I very much doubt that he would have participated in class much at all unless forced. Hermione is very much the geek who loves learning and loves sharing her knowledge even more. No, from Snape's POV, I just don't see it.

Subtle, that is typical of gifted kids, isn't it? That was my older bro's trouble - and pitfall. They get into trouble, while not working much and having good grades- so the parents and teachers "close their eyes" temporarily. Until they get so bored they don't know what do do with their life, and don't study anymore, and then get into real trouble and real bad grades.

Hmmm, Sirius as a gifted underachiever ;) Any comment?

Hi, PotionsStudent: Yes, I totally agree with this! My two oldest children are classified as "gifted," and I know alot of their classmates. What often happens is that when a student's homelife is turbulent - like Sirius Black's - then it doesn't matter how exceptional they are. They tend to act up in class, become a smart aleck to the teacher, and their grades drop. I just attended my daughter's senior awards ceremony today. When it was over, I thought of 5 or 6 students who were passed over for awards they probably deserved because of their low grade-point-averages. And the number one reason for the low averages was that their homes broke up while they have been in high school. It is just so common. They don't run away like Sirius did, but they stop caring about school. They feel as if their parents have run away from them, I think.

Last week two of my son's friends who are bright, athletic, handsome, popular, and funny went to . . . can you guess? Jail. They had a fight in a store parking lot over absolutely nothing (trash talk) and these two boys broke another boy's jaw in three places. If you met the boys who did it, you would never believe them capable of that kind of anger or violence. But both of them have issues at home - divorced parents who are gone alot, dating different people, etc - and I think their anger at their parents made them lash out at these kids they hardly knew. It is devastating.

In the real world, unlike SWM, people who hurt others at fifteen get sent to juvenile detention on $5000 bond. Plus, they are suspended from school and may not get to finish the year.

I think Sirius was (is hopefully) really smart like Mcgonagall said. he just got bored in class because he knew it already and learns quickly, like Mcgonagall said he and James were at the top of their year.

The only thing is that I can't quite picture Sirius as having his hand up all the time. I can rather see him playing with something else in class, because he knows the curriculum already, and gets bored. Hermione pays attention all the time, and hangs on to every word the teacher says. Sirius, I believe, would feel he knows it all after ten minutes, and after that he doesn't need to practice or pay attention anymore.
I agree with you, I don't picture Sirius as the type to sit there and take notes on every little thing the teacher says.

Thanks, Norbertha. I also don't think that Sirius would necessarily have his hand in the air all the time--he strikes me more as the type who would learn the lesson, get bored, and look for trouble, rather than move the lseeon along by volunteering...However, someone who can make the pronouncement of "I know it all" to his friends doesn't seem the type to hide that attitude in general. Hermione's behavior, if you don't know her personally--as the reader does through Harry--also seems quite arrogant and overbearing.
Subtle, that is typical of gifted kids, isn't it? That was my older bro's trouble - and pitfall. They get into trouble, while not working much and having good grades- so the parents and teachers "close their eyes" temporarily. Until they get so bored they don't know what do do with their life, and don't study anymore, and then get into real trouble and real bad grades.
Sirius reminds me slightly of my brother, my brother is gifted, but he didn't get wonderful grades because he never signed up for challenging classes so he was bored. He wouldn't do his homework, but he got really good grades on tests, so he knew the text, but never did anything. It's really a shame that he never was challenged in school, that happened to me all throughout grade school, and in seventh and eighth grade, and it's not fun. However, a difference that I see is that as Subtle[B] said, I don't think that Sirius was an underachiever, I think that he did get good grades, you can be bored in classes but still get good grades.


Last week two of my son's friends who are bright, athletic, handsome, popular, and funny went to . . . can you guess? Jail. They had a fight in a store parking lot over absolutely nothing (trash talk) and these two boys broke another boy's jaw in three places. If you met the boys who did it, you would never believe them capable of that kind of anger or violence. But both of them have issues at home - divorced parents who are gone alot, dating different people, etc - and I think their anger at their parents made them lash out at these kids they hardly knew. It is devastating.
That is really too bad.

In the real world, unlike SWM, people who hurt others at fifteen get sent to juvenile detention on $5000 bond. Plus, they are suspended from school and may not get to finish the year.

Depending on whether or not they get caught. If a teacher or authority figure never finds out, then the student can't get in trouble. I frankly think that it's a shame that Snape insulted Lily because I picture her as the type to have eventually gone to an adult if she couldn't control the situation.


Actually after reading some of the comments recently, I've started to compare Sirius to a girl that I read about in a fiction book in my Psychology class. This girl was pretty, she was very popular, and she was brilliant, but she wasn't the type to raise her hand with the answers, however; if a teacher asked her to answer a question she would easily answer it, and acted as though it were common knowledge. This is somewhat how I picture Sirius.


It is also hard to tell the difference between self-confidence and arrogance, at times. Hermione is very self-confident about her academics, but not herself. Sirius is arrogant about his academics, but not himself. That is an interesting foil.
I think that you're right, (forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what you meant.) I think that Hermione is more self confident in what she knows rather than herself. I believe that when asked a question if she knows the answer she's confident that the answer is correct, because she remembers reading about it or such, but perhaps not in herself. Also I believe that you're right about Sirius being arrogant in academics but not in himself, which I believe is a stem of what happened in his house. Probably his lack of being arrogant about himself is because of how his parents treated him, while he might have as a result of that, wanted to have something to brag about and to know he was good in, thus he was arrogant about his academics.

Hey, guys! This is from Snape's trial (http://www.accio.org.uk/snapestrial.shtml)

Accio is also delighted to invite all its delegates to participate
in its show trial of Severus Snape. The trial will take place with
the Potions Master in absentia. He will be tried on the following 4
counts (a Ron style explanation is provided on our website)

1. That the accused did, feloniously, treasonously and with
malice aforethought, combine with others to support the most bloody,
abhominable and beastly cause of the notorious, prescribed and
avowed traitor Thomas Marvolo Riddle, sometime called Lord Voldemort;

2. That the accused did, feloniously, treasonously and with
malice aforethought, voluntarily accept membership within a
prescribed and illegal organisation, vulgarly termed "the Death
Eaters";

3. That the accused, feloniously, treasonously and with malice
aforethought, continues as a member in said illegal organisation

4. That the accused has on divers occasions and under the guise
of lawful chastisement committed assault and battery on minors
in respect of whom he was in loco parentis, such assault and
battery being occasioned by divers magical and physical means,
and resulting in perceptible physical and psychological harm to
the said minors.

To successfully try Severus Snape the Accio team needs you! We
therefore cordially extend an invitation to all attendees to
participate in this event. Further details are available on our
website: http://www.accio.org.uk/snapestrial.shtml

Accio UK is the first conference of its kind in the UK and will be
held at Reading University from July 29th-31st 2005. It is an
unofficial, non-profit making, friendly event that will bring
together academics and adult Harry Potter fans to discuss all
aspects of J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter series. Planned events
include presentations, panels, speeches, games, a feast, and
informal discussions into the small hours. All meals are also
included in the registration fees.

It is recommended that you book prior to 30th April 2005 to take
advantage of current prices. An instalment plan is available until
the month end.

For further information please see our website:
http://www.accio.org.uk. Details of how to register can be found
here: http://www.accio.org.uk/registration.shtml


This conference is an unofficial event and is not endorsed or
sanctioned by Warner Bros., the Harry Potter book publishers or J.K.
Rowling and her representatives


It's all part of the Accio UK (http://www.accio.org.uk./) convention in July.

We've certainly been warming up for this event here at CoS!

I don't see the Hermione/Sirius comparison, especially not from Snape's POV. Snape hated Hermione from Day One, even before she befriended Harry and Ron, so we can't say that he hates her because she reminds him of Sirius. I'm not convinced at all that that's true. (Recall the first potions class when he ignored her and then yelled at her for keeping her hand up?)

Um... Snape acted that way twards Hermoine beacuse as a teacher he needs to have a position of some dominance or respect relative to his students (Snape chooses dominence). A student can't be allowed to belive that they know more then a teacher (and woe to the student who really does. a.k.a. me trough all of elementry and half of middle school).

Sirus was just a lacadistical arrogant bully.

Hermoine is a bit of a know it all, but is generaly a very good person (she sticks up for he lessers, even if she does it in the wrong way).

were as Sirus is never actualy shown (other than the fact that he cares for Harry) to be all that great of a person (he even proved this with his own words, "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals" GoF pg 525 American Hardcover. Then he goes and treats his house elf very poorly and is also revealed as having been a bull.)

I liked Sirus before OotP, not so much now.

Hi, Chiev, I've missed you so much here, thanks for delurking.Thank you! :blush: Unfortunately, I’ve been too busy to delurk again until today. Hopefully things are lightening up at work, though, so I should have some more time to spend here this week. This makes me very happy. :) However, it’s entirely possible that James saved Snape for a level 3 reason. He could easily have done it to impress Lily. He had to something to make her reverse her opinion of him after SWM—wasn’t this the perfect opportunity? Oooh, you're evil, Chiev. :evil: :lol: :) What? Me, evil? :angel: :lol: :evil:I have a question: What about Sirius' moral development? His problem, on level 3, is that his friends and his family expect different things from him. His family expects him to support Voldemort's ideas, while his friends expect him to fight against Voldemort. He chooses to do what his friends expect him to, and leave his family. Is this still consistent with level 3? What does a level 3 person do when two important groups have different expectations of him? (Is this a moral dilemma that could eventually lead to a higher stage?)Sirius is a tough one and this post is a bit “train of thought.” Sorry. Yes, I think this type of dilemma could lead to a higher stage of moral development, if Sirius was at level 3 and torn between his friends and family. I’m not convinced Sirius was actually ever torn between desiring both his friends’ and his family’s approval, though.

I think what we can clearly see from SWM is that Sirius doesn’t care what others think of him, unlike James. He pays no attention to the girl “eyeing him hopefully” at the end of the exam. He tells James to put away the snitch and insults Peter in the same breath. Sirius pays no attention to the crowd, as James does while they are tormenting Snape. I don’t know at what level Sirius is in SWM, but it’s not 3—he doesn’t seem to care enough about anyone else’s approval. I also don’t believe that he would be at level 4 because he doesn’t seem to care at all about authority (Lily as prefect) or the rules (he’s looking forward to the full moon). It’s possible that Sirius could believe his actions are immoral, in which case, he could be at one of these levels, but there’s nothing to indicate that he believes so. Could he be at level 1? I hate to put him so low, but if he is truly as gifted as his confidence seems to indicate and never had to face adversity, he could be at such a low level. My personal speculation is that he was pampered at home until he went to Hogwarts and ended up in Gryffindor. The adversity that followed, especially if Regulus was still pampered, could have pushed him to level 2. Purely speculation, of course. I can’t possibly put Sirius as high as level 5 in SWM.

The next we know of Sirius, he became suspicious when he couldn’t find Peter and found the Potters’ house in ruins. Why did he go? Obviously loyalty to James—this puts him anywhere above level 1—not very helpful. I’ll skip Sirius’s confrontation of Peter in the street because there’s been no consensus on what Sirius’s intentions actually were.

In the Shrieking Shack, Sirius is bent on revenge. The only question is whether or not he thinks killing Peter is moral simply for revenge or whether he’s willing to kill Peter for revenge despite thinking it immoral to do. I think Sirius clearly shows that he isn’t interested in the welfare of the children—not even Harry. As SIP has pointed out in the past, he breaks Ron’s leg dragging him into the tunnel. Something that is not often mentioned is this:

. . .the knuckles of Harry’s other hand collided with the side of Black’s head and they fell, backward, into the wall—

Hermione was screaming; Ron was yelling; there was a blinding flash as the wands in Black’s hand sent a jet of sparks into the air that missed Harry’s face by inches; Harry felt the shrunken arm under his fingers twisting madly, but he clung on, his other hand punching every part of Black it could find.

But Black’s free hand had found Harry’s throat—

“No,” he hissed, “I’ve waited too long—“

The fingers tightened, Harry choked, his glasses askew.

I can’t read anything in this that suggests Sirius has Harry’s best interests at heart. He seems willing to kill Harry in order to get to Peter here. Again, I can’t believe that Sirius would be at level 5 here. Sirius’s only statement that implies reasoning for his actions is about Snape: ”It served him right,” he sneered. “Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to . . . hoping he could get us expelled. . . .” Sirius clearly thinks that his actions so many years ago were right and justified as revenge. I think this puts Sirius at level 2. Even though it was many years before, Sirius is still using level 2 reasoning to justify it. Sirius’s words, ”THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!” roared Black. “DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!” are consistent with level 2 reasoning—marketplace exchange.

But, then we get this: ”You’re the only person who has the right to decide, Harry,” said Black. “But think. . . .think what he did. . . .” Sirius recognizing Harry’s right to make the decision about Peter is not a level 2 response. It doesn’t fulfill his desire for revenge and, at that point, Sirius owes Harry nothing. It’s this that makes me think Sirius really is at level 4.5: Stage 4.5.
Choice is personal and subjective. It is based on emotions, conscience is seen as arbitrary and relative, as are ideas such as 'duty' and 'morally right'.Sirius’s willingness to accept that Harry’s choice is reasonable is what makes me place him here. Since level 4.5 is based on emotion with morality being relative, all of Sirius’s recent behavior would be consistent with this level.

I’m not sure when Sirius would have progessed to this level—somewhere between SWM and his release from Azkaban. The reason I don’t believe Sirius is at this level in SWM, too, is that his actions are too cold. He’s not ruled by emotion in that scene. One thing I was thinking last night (yes, I'm obsessed) was wether Lupin's condition had an effect on his moral development, either an advantage or a hindrance. Please, Chiev, can you fathom an answer? I asked about development in people who had experienced severe prejudice and those who had been abused, if it changed their levels, or the speed with which they developed over on Dev of Sev, but I don't think Chiev saw it. :) Or if she did, she ignored me. :cry: So I add my vote, too. :eyebrows:Sorry, clkginny; I wasn’t ignoring you! As to your questions, I think that the adversity that someone in Lupin’s position or someone in the position of being abused face would lead to more rapid moral development. Someone who always gets their own way has no need to develop morally.

An example of this nature was given on a website discussing Kohlberg development. Dudley is a big bully and Harry is a scrawny boy. If both Dudley and Harry wanted the last piece of pie (and neither Vernon nor Petunia were around), Harry would have to fight Dudley for it and would always lose. Dudley would have no reason to advance morally because he wouldn’t be faced with any dilemma. Meanwhile, Harry would learn that he is better off making a trade with Dudley—something that Dudley wants in exchange for the pie--both Harry and Dudley are satisfied.

I feel that Lupin, Snape, and Harry are all at higher stages of moral development than their peers because of the adversities they have repeatedly faced and dealt with.

RemusLupinFan, levels 3-4 are the “conventional” levels, where most people fall. People at these levels do good things. This level isn’t inconsistent with James sacrificing himself, although I’m not opposed to the idea that James is actually at a higher level at the time of his death.

I really liked your idea that Snape sees Hermione in Sirius’s position, subtle! We always try to draw parallels between the Marauders and the Trio, so why not Snape? ;)

Sirius is a good person, he has changed some. He accepted Remus if was really as bad as some people let on he would not have done that. He died trying to protect Harry. He went from the tropical nice area to a cave and living off of rats to protect Harry. I believe that Sirius is a little too rough on some of his enemys, but remember he is a very loyal friend who would stop at nothing to protect and keep those he cares for safe and happy.

He kind of reminds me of my best friend although my best friend is a girl. I've given up on trying to get her to follow the rules and do homework, she never will because it is not her. She would also do anything to cheer up, protect, or stand up for me or my other two best friends.

Hey, guys! This is from Snape's trial (http://www.accio.org.uk/snapestrial.shtml)



It's all part of the Accio UK (http://www.accio.org.uk./) convention in July.

We've certainly been warming up for this event here at CoS!

I was actually invited to go to the Accio Conference because of the Fanbook, but had to decline because my daughter goes to college at the end of the summer. Reading that list of Snape's offenses makes me a little bit glad I didn't go. I'd be the first in line to defend Snape, just as Dumbledore does in the books.

Here's a little bit of logic: JKR says Dumbledore is the "epitomy of good" and "speaks for her." Dumbledore said Snape was cleared of his charges and isn't a DE anymore, and that he trusts him. If JKR wants us to trust Dumbledore, then we have to trust that Snape isn't as bad as those fake "charges" make out.

Here's a little bit of logic: JKR says Dumbledore is the "epitomy of good" and "speaks for her." Dumbledore said Snape was cleared of his charges and isn't a DE anymore, and that he trusts him. If JKR wants us to trust Dumbledore, then we have to trust that Snape isn't as bad as those fake "charges" make out.

I'm kind of the opposite of you, when I read those charges I kept thinking of ones that they could have, they ended up using all of the ones that I thought of though. :)Sirius is a good person, he has changed some. He accepted Remus if was really as bad as some people let on he would not have done that. He died trying to protect Harry. He went from the tropical nice area to a cave and living off of rats to protect Harry. I believe that Sirius is a little too rough on some of his enemys, but remember he is a very loyal friend who would stop at nothing to protect and keep those he cares for safe and happy.
I think he's a good person as well. I think that overall he has made some mistakes in his life, but so have we all, and in the end he has done so much good as well.

I think I agree more with Nosretep, who wrote:

were as Sirus is never actualy shown (other than the fact that he cares for Harry) to be all that great of a person (he even proved this with his own words, "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals" GoF pg 525 American Hardcover. Then he goes and treats his house elf very poorly and is also revealed as having been a bull.)

I liked Sirus before OotP, not so much now.

Sigh. I think JKR has given us a little mixed signal with her view of Sirius. On the one hand he is handsome and Harry loves him. On the other hand, he treats his house elf as badly as his parents did. On the other hand, Kreacher was truly horrible and turned out to be a traitor. On the other hand, what if Kreacher hadn't been treated so badly? Sirius might still be alive.

I can't say that I really liked Sirius too much in PoA or GoF. I accepted him and really didn't think too much about him. But in OotP, I thought he was whining, complaining, arrogant, rude, and sometimes too wrapped up in himself to spend any time with Harry. The more I got to know about him, the less I liked him.

Dumbledore never says that Sirius is "bad," and he does say that Sirius wasn't a "cruel man." But you don't have to be cruel to take people for granted or treat them with disrespect.

I wasn't sad in the least when Sirius died, and I was absolutely amazed at the fan response to his death. I would think something was wrong with me, except that there are other posters here and there who mention a lack of sadness, too.

were as Sirus is never actualy shown (other than the fact that he cares for Harry) to be all that great of a person (he even proved this with his own words, "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals" GoF pg 525 American Hardcover. Then he goes and treats his house elf very poorly and is also revealed as having been a bull.)
You're right, but we don't know that Sirius acted that way towards everyone, sure he did towards two people, and that wasn't alright, but he may have been kinder to other people. Quite frankly Kreacher and Snape annoy me, although I wouldn't purposly hurt them or anything because that's not the kind of way that I deal with situations, although Sirius as we all know, wasn't raised in the happiest of homes, and while that is no excuse for what he did, it may explain how he deals with problems.



Um... Snape acted that way twards Hermoine beacuse as a teacher he needs to have a position of some dominance or respect relative to his students (Snape chooses dominence). A student can't be allowed to belive that they know more then a teacher (and woe to the student who really does. a.k.a. me trough all of elementry and half of middle school).
Sometimes students do know more than the teachers, twice I've told teachers facts and they told me that they weren't true, in a rather harsh way too, so it resulted in my embarrassment. My facts were correct though, one of them I've looked up and have seen it, as well as other teachers have told me it was true, and the other was something that did happen, my mother saw it, and I've looked it up as well. My point is that teachers have a lot of authority and influence on students, I've had many teachers make me cry before, and that's just counting middle school and high school, there is no excuse for a teacher to purposly embarrass or insult a student.

EDIT: I sound mean, I don't mean that I always know more than my teachers, but that I have contributed facts that were right and my teachers weren't aware of. Sorry.

Quote from Chievrefueil:
I think what we can clearly see from SWM is that Sirius doesn’t care what others think of him, unlike James. He pays no attention to the girl “eyeing him hopefully” at the end of the exam. He tells James to put away the snitch and insults Peter in the same breath. Sirius pays no attention to the crowd, as James does while they are tormenting Snape. I don’t know at what level Sirius is in SWM, but it’s not 3—he doesn’t seem to care enough about anyone else’s approval. I also don’t believe that he would be at level 4 because he doesn’t seem to care at all about authority (Lily as prefect) or the rules (he’s looking forward to the full moon). It’s possible that Sirius could believe his actions are immoral, in which case, he could be at one of these levels, but there’s nothing to indicate that he believes so. Could he be at level 1? I hate to put him so low, but if he is truly as gifted as his confidence seems to indicate and never had to face adversity, he could be at such a low level. My personal speculation is that he was pampered at home until he went to Hogwarts and ended up in Gryffindor. The adversity that followed, especially if Regulus was still pampered, could have pushed him to level 2. Purely speculation, of course. I can’t possibly put Sirius as high as level 5 in SWM.
Chievrefueil nice to hear from you again. This paragraph got me wondering if James and Sirius were really the double act that they were made out to be. While I don't doubt that they were James and Sirius seem to take completely different views of popularity for instance. James clearly adores the limelight while Sirius seems to not give one penny for it. Does anyone know how exactly that would affect their friendship? (To me it seems to hammer home the point the while Sirius may have disliked Snape for one reason James's reason could have been completely different)

Quote from Chievrefueil:
An example of this nature was given on a website discussing Kohlberg development. Dudley is a big bully and Harry is a scrawny boy. If both Dudley and Harry wanted the last piece of pie (and neither Vernon nor Petunia were around), Harry would have to fight Dudley for it and would always lose. Dudley would have no reason to advance morally because he wouldn’t be faced with any dilemma. Meanwhile, Harry would learn that he is better off making a trade with Dudley—something that Dudley wants in exchange for the pie--both Harry and Dudley are satisfied.
But would Harry really learn the market method. There are several other methods that he could use...steal the pie before Dudley could get it, learn to fight better then Dudley (basically that's the warning he delivers in OotP)...etc.

Quote from Silver Ink Pot:
Jaguarundi: Snape may indeed have street smarts, but he also seems very well-educated. W

We never actually see James in the canon reading a book, a newspaper, or anything but his OWL test paper.
Canon has James becoming an animagi without teacher help (I presume) so he most have done a lot of research into transfiguration.

Jaguarundi: But how do we know that James actually did any research at all? Maybe Lupin did all the research and just told the others what to do? That would be similar to the way Harry and Ron follow Hermione's instructions. Or Sirius could have read about it in a book at his parents' house and described the process to James.

Can you imagine the mistakes you make while trying to learn to be an animagus? It must be worse than having not putting good legs on your teacup, or not turning your hedgehog into a living pincushion, because you are doing it to yourself. :scared:

Chievrefueil--As always, extremely interesting ideas! (You must tell them at work that there are people elsewhere who need you....!)

Sirius is a puzzler, to put it mildly. I tend to think that his most important trait is his belief that he 'knows it all.' He has a supreme self-confidence that he can handle anything, from academics to Pettigrew, and he doesn't have to look to anyone else to help him or advise him; he needs no approval from others (in the latter, he's quite the opposite of Lupin). He is--oh, yes, I'm going to say it--doggedly single-minded : ) , best exemplified by his relentless pursuit of Pettigrew, when he makes up his mind...which he tends to do quite rapidly.

The upside to this is it enables him to survive his family and Azkaban, and probably is also the basis of his befriending Lupin and Pettigrew. Also, since he's not looking for anything, it is what makes him such a loyal friend: he has no reason to be friends with anyone other than that he wants to be friends--the only possible exception being Pettigrew, whom he may tolerate for James' and/or Lupin's sake (my vote is that it was for James). He also seems the type who can see the answer instantly--and I don't just mean academics.

The downside is it makes him quite judgmental, to the point of being a bully. He seems to have difficulty feeling compassion for anyone outside his circle--he may voice it in theory, but not in practice: case in point--Kreacher. While Harry looks up to him and trusts him, I have some problems with Sirius' tendency to give his opinion (related to that instant-answer ability) without having all the facts to back them up--one of these instances is when he discusses Karkaroff, the Triwizard Competition, and Krum with Harry. Sirius does know what he's talking about for most of this, which makes it rather worse when he pronounces that Harry should keep his eye on Krum--Sirius is completely wrong about the Durmstrang boy, but doesn't think he is, and the suspicion is presented along with other details that are absolutely right. Problem: one has to sift what Sirius says, to separate fact from opinion, and then re-sort again, to sort valid from invalid opinion--because, as he is created, Sirius presents all of it with a definiteness that is difficult to look past.

I think that, when Sirius irritates me, it's when he leaps to conclusions--when he rashly drives ahead with his own opinion--which may, in fact, contradict what he's previously said. And, particularly, when he questions Dumbledore's judgment--probably because I know that Dumbledore does weigh his thoughts and words before proceeding with the action.

In his relationship with Harry, I don't see him as a father-figure, despite Sirius' official position as his godfather. He strikes me more as an older brother: well intentioned and protective, but lacking maturity sufficient enough to offer solid guidance in all situations--too likely to react emotionally, rather than weigh choices and consequences and look outside his own immediate reactions for alternatives.

FireintheSky, yes, that was exactly what I meant about Hermione and Sirius.

Chiev, thank-you for answering. (I didn't really think you were ignoring me, I just figured you hadn't seen it).

As far as Sirius goes, I've always thought his heart was in the right place, except for that scene in PoA, (I think SIP quoted it). His develpment was stunted by his extended vacation in Azkaban, and I'm sure his time there didn't have a positive effect on his personality. In SWM, which is the only time we really get to see Sirius without the effects of Azkaban, he was primarily the by-stander, although he was the instigator. He was there for Harry during both GoF and OoTP, whether that was a good thing or not...I don't know, yet. Sirius' character was written as dark (Azkaban), arrogant, and gifted. But also loyal and recklessly brave. When it comes to his opinions, I think this is another natural flaw of the very gifted. They're right so often that they rarely stop to consider the fact that they might be wrong.

As far as Snape and bad teachers, my worst one was in sixth grade. To begin with, I was smarter than her, which she seemed to dislike. She argued with me that my name was a nickname, until I told her that the answer to whether my name was actually my name or not was in the office. She told me that I couldn't finish reading until the rest of the class did, so I would read the story three times so that I would finish with the rest of the class. I was accused of cheating on every test I ever took in her class. I was told that it was impossible for me to be that good in science and that bad in math (that bad was still above average). However, she never made me cry, she just made me furious. Snape reminds me of her, sometimes, but for the most part, Snape doesn't remind me of her, and I like Snape just fine.

Sigh. I think JKR has given us a little mixed signal with her view of Sirius. On the one hand he is handsome and Harry loves him. On the other hand, he treats his house elf as badly as his parents did. On the other hand, Kreacher was truly horrible and turned out to be a traitor. On the other hand, what if Kreacher hadn't been treated so badly? Sirius might still be alive.

I can't say that I really liked Sirius too much in PoA or GoF. I accepted him and really didn't think too much about him. But in OotP, I thought he was whining, complaining, arrogant, rude, and sometimes too wrapped up in himself to spend any time with Harry. The more I got to know about him, the less I liked him.

Dumbledore never says that Sirius is "bad," and he does say that Sirius wasn't a "cruel man." But you don't have to be cruel to take people for granted or treat them with disrespect.

I wasn't sad in the least when Sirius died, and I was absolutely amazed at the fan response to his death. I would think something was wrong with me, except that there are other posters here and there who mention a lack of sadness, too.
I pretty much agree with you, although I liked Sirius in PoA and GoF.

I've always thought the "mixed view" JKR gave us of Sirius was deliberate.

In PoA, you have to feel sorry for someone locked up in Azkaban for 12 years on false charges with no trial. Then we find out he's Harry's godfather ... how heart-warming is that?

In GoF, he leaves his safe haven to come back to Hogsmeade, live off rats and in a cave, to try to help and protect Harry. What a guy!

In OotP, we see all of Sirius' bad sides, reckless, angry. Understandable, as his maturation pretty much stopped when he was sent to Azkaban. Even so, we see him endangering Harry and the Order to satisfy his own needs and desires, not to mention his treatment of Kreacher.

I think that JKR did all of that to lessen our sympathy for Sirius so that when he was killed, it would also lessen our grief.

Azkaban, I think, exacerbated Sirius' worser qualities. As JKR has said, it did stunt his maturity: it's as if 12 years of his life didn't happen. But I think also that spending 12 years focusing on revenge only further developed his single-mindedness. Not saying that he was wrong for focusing on revenge!!

clkginny--I'll only disagree with your comment that Sirius was a bystander in SWM. After recently taking a closer look at that scene, I was surprised (as I had assumed, too, that James was the actor in that scene) to discover how much involvment Sirius has: he casts spells and he insults Snape; he's quite an active participant, who only steps back when Lily appears (and I'm still working on that one....... hmmmm).

Yes, you're right, Subtle. I should have qualified my comment by saying that he was more of a by-stander than James, but less of a by-stander than Pettigrew or Lupin.

Great posts everyone! I've been away a couple of days and I have already missed lots of interesting discussions. As pretty much all of my ideas on the previous subjects were expressed by one member or other I'll move to the most recent topic.

Sirius's personality and development

basically I'd have to agree with Subtle, Sirius is to Harry more of a big brother than a father, however Harry sees him. Molly seemed to have got the idea, because she reminds Sirius that "Harry is not his friend James". Usually father figures don't treat you as a best friend, but try to be a model, thus placing themselves above you.

I also see Sirius like a very complicated man. He's full of good qualities and certainly has the heart in the right place, but he's also irritating at times with his being quick to judgement.
I was expecially annoyed about his warnings on Krum, who had looked perfectly ok to me, making me think Sirius was probably getting a bit paranoid (a la Moody).
On the other hand, he did care about Harry enough to risk his life more than once and, as Bella would put it, "brave Azkaban for him" (him being either Harry or James, depending on the moment). By the way, that seems to ba an interesting family trait.. :huh: (oops, it just occoured to me it could be Crouch Jr's words I'm using and not Bella's, but the words still seem to apply to her.. sorry about that :blush:)

He looks like a smart kid growing up in a difficult family, so his not paying attention in class (as some believe) or breaking the rules seems to be a call for attention.. but it's not the limelight he wants (like James does), it's giudance and affection. I know this is mainly speculation, but it's the way I picture him based on what we know of his school days.

As for Sirius stopping when Lily comes in, I think it's his quick mind at work. Lily is a prefect, she could report them, so the smart thing to do is stop and resume the "activity" at a more favorable time.. James of course totally misses the point, Lily's witness is exactly what he wants.

clkginny, I know exactly how you feel about that teacher. I used to have an English teacher who couldn't even spell some words correctly. I was better than her since day one in high school having learned English privately since Grammar School, but she gave me a hard time. The year I came back from the States, where I had spent a year as exchange student, she was actually asking me for advice on every other word she said.. sweet revenge!

Side note: saying Azkaban stops the growth and moral development of its occupants is a pretty harsh statement. A punitive jail, as opposed to a rehabilitating jail, must be the reason Dumbledore doesn't like Dementors. Isn't it sad how the wizarding world is so behind in criminal justice?

Sirius

I guess I'm one of those person who had no trouble with understanding the man in "OOTP". I just see where he was coming from and why. I don't say it was good. I don't say he was the nicest person in the world. Of course not. Sometimes I wanted to smack him really hard- especially during his infamous "you are not like your father" chat with Harry. But his acting was justifiable. He was in his own private little Azkaban again. I know that it is hard to imagine what this man had gone through and I being on his place wouldn't have survived even two months in that prison, lets forget about sanity and all that stuff ;)
Sure JK might have written him being all noble, cheerful, flawless and unselfish, acting like nothing had never happened and everything is super. But it would have been ridiculous and unrealistic. That house was increasing all his native flaws- his recklesness, stuborness, fierceness and arrogance. He could act diffrently. Only if she had not closed him in this hause ;)

I pretty much agree with you, although I liked Sirius in PoA and GoF.

I've always thought the "mixed view" JKR gave us of Sirius was deliberate.

In PoA, you have to feel sorry for someone locked up in Azkaban for 12 years on false charges with no trial. Then we find out he's Harry's godfather ... how heart-warming is that?

In GoF, he leaves his safe haven to come back to Hogsmeade, live off rats and in a cave, to try to help and protect Harry. What a guy!

In OotP, we see all of Sirius' bad sides, reckless, angry. Understandable, as his maturation pretty much stopped when he was sent to Azkaban. Even so, we see him endangering Harry and the Order to satisfy his own needs and desires, not to mention his treatment of Kreacher.

I think that JKR did all of that to lessen our sympathy for Sirius so that when he was killed, it would also lessen our grief.

I agree with all your points, even the last one, although I think JKR's attempt at "lessening the grief" didn't work with the majority of fans. :)

clkginny--I'll only disagree with your comment that Sirius was a bystander in SWM. After recently taking a closer look at that scene, I was surprised (as I had assumed, too, that James was the actor in that scene) to discover how much involvment Sirius has: he casts spells and he insults Snape; he's quite an active participant, who only steps back when Lily appears (and I'm still working on that one....... hmmmm).

Yes, I have trouble seeing Sirius as a bystander. He actually attacks Snape verbally while letting James attack him magically. So I would say he is an active participant, while Lupin is the "frozen bystander" (I'm going to save that phrase in my book of "future poetry book titles" :evil: ).

It could be that Sirius backs off when Lily comes around because he has been in so much trouble before that. Maybe he has been told he will be kicked out if he "crosses the line" once more. But probably not. A little thing like expulsion wouldn't keep Sirius from doing something he wanted to do, would it? So maybe he really respects Lily, or maybe Lily was like Ginny, with her "bat-bogey hex." Remember how James and Sirius both stare at Lily's wand when she threatens them with it. I think that is probably what they respect.

Quote from Silver Ink Pot:
It could be that Sirius backs off when Lily comes around because he has been in so much trouble before that. Maybe he has been told he will be kicked out if he "crosses the line" once more. But probably not. A little thing like expulsion wouldn't keep Sirius from doing something he wanted to do, would it? So maybe he really respects Lily, or maybe Lily was like Ginny, with her "bat-bogey hex." Remember how James and Sirius both stare at Lily's wand when she threatens them with it. I think that is probably what they respect.
Could it be that he realizes that James has a thing for Lily and backs off so that James can do all of the talking with his crush?

It could be that Sirius backs off when Lily comes around because he has been in so much trouble before that. Maybe he has been told he will be kicked out if he "crosses the line" once more. But probably not. A little thing like expulsion wouldn't keep Sirius from doing something he wanted to do, would it? So maybe he really respects Lily, or maybe Lily was like Ginny, with her "bat-bogey hex." Remember how James and Sirius both stare at Lily's wand when she threatens them with it. I think that is probably what they respect.
I think that you might well be right here Silver Ink Pot. We know that Lily was a gifted witch and Mr Ollivander tells Harry that his mother's wand was well suited for charm work, so perhaps they are a little in awe of Lily's abilities.

SiriusSure JK might have written him being all noble, cheerful, flawless and unselfish, acting like nothing had never happened and everything is super. But it would have been ridiculous and unrealistic. That house was increasing all his native flaws- his recklesness, stuborness, fierceness and arrogance. He could act diffrently. Only if she had not closed him in this house ;)

The fact that Sirius had to come back again to Grimmaud Place must have been even more devastating than most of us think. I'm not a supporter of the theory that Sirius' moral developement stopped the moment he went to Azkaban and that his unreasonable conduct was at his school or early post-school level of thinking and acting. I'm not sure if being at prison must inevitably stop self-developement -- Sirius knew he was innocent and knew that he was the only one who could tell what had really happened and this thought made something like a 'grim hero' out of him. Grim, so the dementors couldn't use all of their powers to torment Black.

By the way, do you think that Sirius got life sentence or not? Was it written in PoA and I've skipped that? And is life imprisonement the only way appart from breaking your wand to punish a wrongdoer?

Back to Black (I know, lousy rhyme...): what I thought was happening with Sirius was the impact of the Grimmauld Place: some kind of forced journey back in time. Padfoot has left the house while still attending Hogwarts, the argument between him and his family was thus left opened, without any ending or at least a conclusion. The row must have been like a rankled wound -- it isn't life threatening, you can manage to live with it, but it is still painfull. Sirius entering the Black house must have felt as in a never-ending nightmare of life in the haunted mansion, known before only from a fair while visiting it as a child. But the child knows that the spooky ride through the mansion will end -- Sirius as an adult with the ostensible right to do what he wants has to live locked up and face all the ghosts from his hated childhood.

Padfoot didn't know how long he would have to stay in hiding, the 'cold war' between the Order and Voldemort could have taken more than just one year if the MoM battle would have had a different outcome. Putting aside Sirius' inborn and habitual flaws as recklessness or obstinacy, who wouldn't act similarly in such a schizophrenic situation? You know what you should do, but at the same time you're constantly reminded of the reason of your (in your opinion) inferiority: your family background. You're desperately trying to proove yourself in the eyes of others, but as all you can do is to de-pixie the house you're getting bitter and hungry for at least some action.

I think that Sirius was perferctly aware of what he was doing, but had to do it nevertheless, it was his only vent. Padfoot was capable of better behaviour, but he started not to care, as in his past trying to act sensibly didn't work, all he got from trying to be a good and thoughtfull boy was Azkaban. When doing stupid thing Sirius probably knew he was wrong, but that knowledge made things worse, it was a vicious circle. The more he was annoyed, the more foolish his actions were. The sillier his actions were, the more he grew angry. And on and on it went till Sirius met his destiny.

Hope this post didn't sound too sloppy... :blush:

by severa78 He looks like a smart kid growing up in a difficult family, so his not paying attention in class (as some believe) or breaking the rules seems to be a call for attention.. but it's not the limelight he wants (like James does), it's giudance and affection. I know this is mainly speculation, but it's the way I picture him based on what we know of his school days.

As for Sirius stopping when Lily comes in, I think it's his quick mind at work. Lily is a prefect, she could report them, so the smart thing to do is stop and resume the "activity" at a more favorable time.. James of course totally misses the point, Lily's witness is exactly what he wants.

I like what you said about Sirius needing and looking for guidance and affection. I think it is quite true!

I have no idea why he stopped when Lily came into the picture, either. Maybe he knew that James was the one who was supposed to handle Lily. Maybe James told them to leave him deal with Lily and not interfere, or maybe it just went upsoken! Sirius knew that James liked Lily and therefore let him deal with her.

Subtle, great discussion as always about Sirius.

I want to add my two cents to that.

I think Sirius's character could be analyzed from two sides:

1. is the apparent Sirius. Sirius who is impulsive and arrogant and gets bored because he knows everything and therefore doesn't bother to study and who doesn't have patience with people like Peter because he is Sirius Black and therefore he is better tha other people. Sirius who preaches without listening to his own words and Sirius who is reckless and fights with Molly and questions Dd etc.

2. is the hidden Sirius, the one who might be seen when looking behind the words!

Of course, it may be just speculation, but in my opinion Sirius is a person who is a little broken on the inside. At first glance everything might seem simple: the black family didn't accept Sirius, so he ran away. Nobody could stop Sirius Black!

Nevertheless, I think that the fact that his family didn't accept him and didn't love him had a great impact on Sirius's life, one that would influence his entire existence. Sirius pretended that he didn't care about his family but he must have hurt really badly because they had rejected him. Because of this rejection he became restless.

I think that restless is a word that describes Sirius pretty well. He is in constant movement in constant activity, always trying to prove to himself and to the others that he is worthy! Is this restlessness that keeps him from being calm and from being happy and from just thinking things through properly. Because he is broken on the inside and carries a little madness with him, together with the desire to prove himself to the world, he is so impulsive and makes stupid mistakes!

I also think that Sirius suffered a lot when his brother Regulus dies. He may have pretended that he didn't care, but I think he did! Sirius is deep down a very caring and loyal person. He does care; he just doesn't show it very often. It may be something inherited from the Black family, even if he didn't want it: a Black is proud, a Black never admits that he was wrong and never shows his emotions.


I disagree about the fact that Sirius questioning DD must be a thing to be held against Sirius. DD was wrong and he admitted it in OOTP. If DD was wrong, this makes Sirius right about wanting to tell Harry the truth. DD made some wrong choices. He had the right intentions that he forgot some things- as the fact that a person doesn’t want to be caged, that Snape’s grudge had not disappear during the years that had passed, that Harry was young and young people think differently etc!

I think Sirius is a lot broken inside (rather like Snape)--I think that explains a great deal of what he does (rather like Snape). Even his bullying of Snape fits into it: as 'social enforcer,' Sirius takes it upon himself to discipline someone who he perceives is out of line; Sirius is often right and he wants to prove himself--two contributing factors to hating Snape for what Sirius sees as his transgressions, in being an oddball involved in the Dark Arts.

It isn't just Dumbledore's order that Sirius stay in hiding that Sirius questions (and breaks). One that immediately comes to mind is at the end of GoF, when Dumbledore wants Harry to speak of the events in the graveyard and Sirius disagrees; there's also his questioning of Dumbledore's trust of Snape. Again, I think it connects to Sirius' belief in his own right judgment.

ETA:
If you haven't already, please go immediately to the editorials and read The Black Adder's "Drama of the Mind." This is not a paid commercial message, just a recommendation of a fascinating analysis of the HP characters according to Freudian and Jungian models. And, if that scares you, know that, as well as being incredibly insightful, the editorial takes what could be overly complicated and intimidating psychological ideas and makes them easy to read--you'll learn a lot, and not just about HP! Go on, go read it!!! : )

Nevertheless, I think that the fact that his family didn't accept him and didn't love him had a great impact on Sirius's life, one that would influence his entire existence. Sirius pretended that he didn't care about his family but he must have hurt really badly because they had rejected him. Because of this rejection he became restless.

:tu: I think this is a really good point. Everyone says that Sirius rejected his family, but first they rejected him. Even with a crazy mother, that has to be painful. In spite of the fact that Sirius acts as though it was just fine that he ran away at 16, people are hardly grown up at that age. Of course, wizards may not need as much from their mothers - we see that with the twins. But I can't imagine my own children just running away and taking care of themselves without ever coming home again. No one is really grown up at 16.

I disagree about the fact that Sirius questioning DD must be a thing to be held against Sirius. DD was wrong and he admitted it in OOTP. If DD was wrong, this makes Sirius right about wanting to tell Harry the truth. DD made some wrong choices. He had the right intentions that he forgot some things- as the fact that a person doesn’t want to be caged, that Snape’s grudge had not disappear during the years that had passed, that Harry was young and young people think differently etc!

Or maybe Dumbledore forgot what a hot head Sirius was. Dumbledore was absolutely right that if Sirius kept going out he was going to get killed, because he knew the DEs would target Harry's godfather above anyone else. Even when Dumbledore is wrong, he is still correct about 98% of the time.

Sirius should have trusted Dumbledore because it would have been in Harry's best interest for him to stay alive.

The upside to this is it enables him to survive his family and Azkaban, and probably is also the basis of his befriending Lupin and Pettigrew. Also, since he's not looking for anything, it is what makes him such a loyal friend: he has no reason to be friends with anyone other than that he wants to be friends--the only possible exception being Pettigrew, whom he may tolerate for James' and/or Lupin's sake (my vote is that it was for James). He also seems the type who can see the answer instantly--and I don't just mean academics.

The downside is it makes him quite judgmental, to the point of being a bully. He seems to have difficulty feeling compassion for anyone outside his circle--he may voice it in theory, but not in practice: case in point--Kreacher. While Harry looks up to him and trusts him, I have some problems with Sirius' tendency to give his opinion (related to that instant-answer ability) without having all the facts to back them up--one of these instances is when he discusses Karkaroff, the Triwizard Competition, and Krum with Harry. Sirius does know what he's talking about for most of this, which makes it rather worse when he pronounces that Harry should keep his eye on Krum--Sirius is completely wrong about the Durmstrang boy, but doesn't think he is, and the suspicion is presented along with other details that are absolutely right. Problem: one has to sift what Sirius says, to separate fact from opinion, and then re-sort again, to sort valid from invalid opinion--because, as he is created, Sirius presents all of it with a definiteness that is difficult to look past.

I think that, when Sirius irritates me, it's when he leaps to conclusions--when he rashly drives ahead with his own opinion--which may, in fact, contradict what he's previously said. And, particularly, when he questions Dumbledore's judgment--probably because I know that Dumbledore does weigh his thoughts and words before proceeding with the action.

I really like your post about Sirius, in fact it got me thinking about him and the snap judgements he makes, something which I believe he got from his family, because of what we saw of Mrs. Black's portrait in OotP, she automatically appeared to just hate people who weren't pure bloods. While I know that Sirius doesn't judge people on whether or not they're pure bloods, he does as you said make quick judgements. What it made me think about is that I believe that Sirius judged Snape before he really knew him, but now I wonder why he didn't judge Lupin like he did Snape.

Of course, wizards may not need as much from their mothers - we see that with the twins. But I can't imagine my own children just running away and taking care of themselves without ever coming home again. No one is really grown up at 16.

That's a really good point. My mother works with a lot of teens who have been or are in the process of being emancipated from their families. It's a rare few who can actually support themselves and many need to stop going to school, have children young, and aren't living very well, also they don't have the best jobs, it's really sad whenever she tells me about any of these kids, because they all pretty much had really bad home lives, parents who didn't care much what they did.


Or maybe Dumbledore forgot what a hot head Sirius was. Dumbledore was absolutely right that if Sirius kept going out he was going to get killed, because he knew the DEs would target Harry's godfather above anyone else. Even when Dumbledore is wrong, he is still correct about 98% of the time.

Sirius should have trusted Dumbledore because it would have been in Harry's best interest for him to stay alive.


You're right, he should have trusted Dumbledore, but he's impulsive, a trait that he never appears to have grown out of.


About Sirius' growth as a result of Azkaban

I believe that a great deal of his growth did stop while he was in Azkaban, and I think that he's trying to hold on to the past. I liked the quote that severa78 pointed out to support this, Molly feels the need to tell Sirius that Harry is not James. I think that Sirius' teenage like attitude and his treating Harry like James, and his continuing his grudges with Snape are all his attempts of trying to be back in the "good ol' days" so to speak, the times when he didn't have many worries and could just hang out with his friends around campus. Also, I believe that when Sirius realized that Harry wasn't exactly like James he's dissappointed, and says something that I believe shows his dissapointment that Harry isn't James, while still not telling Harry so directly, I can't find the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of "You're less like James than I thought..."

Chievrefueil nice to hear from you again. Thank you. :blush:This paragraph got me wondering if James and Sirius were really the double act that they were made out to be. While I don't doubt that they were James and Sirius seem to take completely different views of popularity for instance. James clearly adores the limelight while Sirius seems to not give one penny for it. Does anyone know how exactly that would affect their friendship?I think it would work for the friendship because they wouldn't be competing against one another. Fred and George don't seem to compete either, but everyone thinks of them as the same and they're never differentiated. Even they seem to think of themselves as a unit. James and Sirius were very different from one another, although they had things in common. They were equals--maybe this allowed them to give the impression of a "double act" like Fred and George.(To me it seems to hammer home the point the while Sirius may have disliked Snape for one reason James's reason could have been completely different)Interesting. Could this difference in reasoning explain why Snape may have hated James more than Sirius? Any speculation as to what those different reasons would've been? Hatred of the Dark Arts for James? And for Sirius? We noticed the lack of taunts about the Dark Arts directed at Snape in SWM, but all the taunting was done by Sirius. Why was Sirius so focused on Snape's appearance? But would Harry really learn the market method. There are several other methods that he could use...steal the pie before Dudley could get it, learn to fight better then Dudley (basically that's the warning he delivers in OotP)...etc. Harry was much smaller than Dudley as a young child, so he would never have been able to beat Dudley in a fight. Stealing the pie wouldn't move Harry up morally because a level one would find stealing for his own benefit moral. Even if Harry did steal the pie sometimes, he wouldn't successfully steal the pie 100% of the time. He would learn that he would have a better chance of always getting what he wanted with a trade.

When Harry threatens Dudley in OotP, he is giving into his base desires because of his frustration. He knows it isn't right and he's struggling with the darker side of himself.

I have to take back about what I said previously--Sirius did not step back when Lily appeared on the scene in SWM. Ahhh--you'd think I'd've learned by now: never assume you remember correctly...always go back to the book.....This is all from pp. 647-649, OotP, Us hardcover (and that would be the lazy person's citations!!!)

When Lily shows up, ordering them to leave Snape alone, James does do the talking to her--but she also is addressing him directly. When James makes the comment about "he exists," many of the students around them laugh, and so do Sirius and Pettigrew (JKR makes a distinct point of noting that Lupin doesn't--"still apparently intent on hs book"--and neither does Lily, simultaneously pointng to both the similarities and the differences between Lupin and Lily). Lily chastises James; while they talk, it's Sirius who notices that Snape can move again. The hanging upside down occurs; again, the same people laugh at this, and, this time, Lily almost smiles--but she makes James release Snape.

At this point, Sirius immediately intervenes with Locomotor mortis, to keep Snape from retaliating--so much for the bystander idea: obviously, he doesn't have any fear of getting in trouble with a prefect. He and James do regard Lily's drawn wand "warily," but James immediately--and "earnestly"--warns her, "don't make me hex you." However, she insists, again, that he release Snape--and then we're off in the Mudblood comment and Lily's diatribe about James' ego and overall bullying in the school and the scene ends.....

The only thing that stops is the personal insulting of Snape--but that doesn't have much to do with Lily's appearance; James doesn't directly address Snape, either: all they're doing is continuing the spellwork, keeping him under control. Lily's intervention doesn't actually stop much--James does, twice, release Snape from the immobilizing spells...both of which were cast by Sirius--the second time clearly shows that Sirius isn't at all concerned about Lily's possible response. All he is concerned about is keeping Snape utterly helpless, unable to retaliate at all...

That's interesting...the thought that crosses my mind is: Does that say something regarding Sirius' attitude about Snape's powers? He's not worried about Lily's, until he's face-to-face with her drawn wand--in which case, of course: he ought to be worried even if it were Pettigrew! It doesn't matter what her skill level--she's got the first jump just by position alone. On the other hand, he makes sure that Snape can't even move. Hmmm.

Good Morning, Subtle. :D

Actually, that does go along with my clarification (although, if I had been clearer in the first place, I wouldn't have had to clarify :grumble: ). What Sirius did is (to my mind) equivalent to the guy that holds your arms while the bully has at you. He isn't the aggressor, but he isn't completely removed. (I shouldn't have used the word by-stander, but it was the best I could think of at the time :rolleyes: :blush: ). Sirius' involvement was less than James, but he was the instigator. He either kept Snape immobile or he stood back and watched.

Don't misunderstand me, I feel that Sirius was wrong, but I still feel that the worse action came from James, by far. Sirius almost has the feel of Wormtail in that scene, he was enjoying the show, but he was participating to some extent while Wormtail was merely the audience. For the record, I think they were all wrong, although I understand Lupin's lack of interference, even if I don't condone it.

I'm not sure if I've had enough coffee that this made more sense than my first post on this subject, but I gave it a shot. :scared:

Interesting. Could this difference in reasoning explain why Snape may have hated James more than Sirius? Any speculation as to what those different reasons would've been? Hatred of the Dark Arts for James? And for Sirius? We noticed the lack of taunts about the Dark Arts directed at Snape in SWM, but all the taunting was done by Sirius. Why was Sirius so focused on Snape's appearance?
I'm going to be cynic here and say that Sirius isn't focused on Snape's appearence for any other reason than the fact that he knows it upsets Snape. I think Snape, despite his greasy hair, might be quite vain - for example, as an adult, he seems to make quite a performance of letting his robes swish and billow out behind him, it seems like he does it deliberately. Sirius might have discovered that taunts about his nose and greasy hair hit a nerve. He knows it gets to Snape, so he uses it for all it's worth. :evil:

EDIT: Forgot to say: Thank you for your post on Sirius' moral development! :tu:
At this point, Sirius immediately intervenes with Locomotor mortis, to keep Snape from retaliatingSorry for being pernickety again, but Locomotor Mortis is the "move unconscious body" spell that takes Snape back to the castle from the Shrieking Shack in PoA. :)

Arrgghh--I don't have PoA at hand (when in danger or in doubt, run for the books!); I do have OotP within reach, and locomotor mortis is the spell Sirius uses in SWM--and it makes Snape "rigid as a board" (p. 648). Hmmm?

:huh: I thought the spell that made Snape float in PoA was "Mobillicorpus."

From the Akashic Record:
http://www.m5p.com/~pravn/hp/

Mobilicorpus: An incantation to levitate a body.
Etym: Latin, "moving body".

Locomotor (OotP ch. 3): Generalized incantation to give an object the power of independent movement.
Etym: Latin for "that which has locomotive power".

Locomotor Mortis: Incantation for the Leg-Locker Curse.
Etym: Latin, "appendage" and "death".

CLK Ginny: Personally, I find what Sirius does to be just as awful as what James does. Taking control of someone and not allowing them to fight back is rather cowardly and unfair. It's interesting that he uses a spell that means "appendage death," as if that is the spell you might use if you wanted to cut off someone's arm or leg in a battle. Yuck - I need more caffeine, too.

Ahem...um--Good morning. Kind of forgot to be mannerly before. My case: too much coffee and now easily distracted....... : )

I agree with silver ink pot--I think Sirius is pretty much on an equal footing with James throughout SWM; they divide the taunting and spellcasting between them. I will note that James is the one who pushes it to hanging Snape upside down--but that's in direct response to Snape's slashing spell. I've realized, for myself, that the reason I originally did have the impression that James was the more active player in this episode was that Snape virtually ignores Sirius and focuses exclusively on James...And yet, it's Sirius who proffers what should be the most offensive insults and who immobilizes Snape. A puzzlement, as The King would say..........

I've realized, for myself, that the reason I originally did have the impression that James was the more active player in this episode was that Snape virtually ignores Sirius and focuses exclusively on James...And yet, it's Sirius who proffers what should be the most offensive insults and who immobilizes Snape. A puzzlement, as The King would say..........
Throughout the episode, Snape addresses only James. A puzzlement, indeed. :huh:

I've been lurking around this thread for a while now, but I haven't posted anything yet because the length and the depth of the comments has somewhat intimidated me :blush:

It's past 2am here so I don't really have time to write anything here now. However, I just wanted to quickly say that the opinions expressed on this thread are amazing. The analysis is just wonderful. Everytime I stop by here you guys give me something new to think about. Maybe tomorrow I'll actually get around to posting my opinions on the topics you're talking about but for now I just wanted to say THANK YOU! In particular thanks to subtle_science, silver_ink_pot, clkginny, FireInTheSky, Mcpherson, Tatiana... and all the others who've contributed such detailed commentaries. It's been a pleasure to read your views.

Sorry for the pointless post :blush: I will return though. The marauders are the most fascinating characters in the story. I would love to share my opinions with you.

Throughout the episode, Snape addresses only James. A puzzlement, indeed. :huh:
It is confusing. Is it because he's scared of Sirius on some level, because he's from a wealthy, respectable pureblood family and all that rot? Maybe he directs all his diatribe at James because, according to Remus, Severus really hates and is jealous of James for his prowess on the Quidditch field. And then of course, to make matters worse, he later ends up owing a life debt to the berk. I wonder if he siphons off some of that hatred onto Sirius now that James is gone.
Wuh. Really sleepy. Can't make sense anymore. Anyway, there's my two cents...

Quote from Chievrefueil:
Interesting. Could this difference in reasoning explain why Snape may have hated James more than Sirius? Any speculation as to what those different reasons would've been? Hatred of the Dark Arts for James? And for Sirius? We noticed the lack of taunts about the Dark Arts directed at Snape in SWM, but all the taunting was done by Sirius. Why was Sirius so focused on Snape's appearance?
To be honest I few ideas or theories. Unless we find out the reason for the start of feud I don't see how this can be worked out. By SWM Snape and the Marauders had been in school for 5 years...plenty of time to put water under the bridge so to speak. The Dark Arts could have played a role(but again the main source of information is Sirius) but I don't think that the feud could have continued so long without a large degree of personal dislike between the parties involved (I can understand why Snape would never forget).

He isn't the aggressor, but he isn't completely removed. (I shouldn't have used the word by-stander, but it was the best I could think of at the time :rolleyes: :blush: ). Sirius' involvement was less than James, but he was the instigator. He either kept Snape immobile or he stood back and watched.
I was involved in an anti-bullying campaign last year, where I learned some titles for people involved in an act of bullying, so here's my thoughts on it.

James: The bully, many people didn't really help matters much, but James instigated the attack, he was the one who did most of the torturing, he was proud of what he did, and he had no apparent reason to torture Snape aside from the fact that he was just bored.

Sirius: I would classify Sirius as a Henchman, these are the people who aren't the initial bully, but they are friends of the bully, and either laugh and egg the bully on, or they help the bully. They can be just as bad as the bully because they are helping matters progress and just get worse, not many people are bullies without henchmen, because the henchmen are there to back up the bullies. Since Sirius immobilized Snape, but didn't really do as much as James to him, I would place him as a henchman.

Pettigrew: I see him as another Henchman, he didn't hold Snape like Sirius did, but he did laugh, which could have egged James on, he supported the bullying.

Lupin: I wouldn't classify Lupin as a Henchman because he didn't laugh or do anything to egg James on, he also didn't help the bullying, the only contribution he made to help the bullying progress was by staying silent. I believe that Lupin is a classic bystander, the person who knows what the bully is doing is wrong, and either does care, but is too afraid to say anything or doesn't care at all, I believe Lupin is the former, I think that he did care, but was too afraid of saying anything. Sorry to Lupin fans, but being a bystander can be just about as bad as being a bully, because they know what is happening is wrong, but yet do nothing to stop it, I am not calling Lupin a bad person nor am I saying that SWM is his fault, not at all, but that he could have done more to stop it. Although, I'd see why he wouldn't, his self esteem was seemingly quite low, and the Marauders accepted him, I doubt he wanted to jeopardize that strong friendship.

Snape: He's kind of hard to classify, he's obviously a victim, the object of the bullying, but I believe that the way he treats Lily could almost put him in the bully category, so I think that he's a victim, with a little bit of a bully as well.

Lily: Another hard one to classify, I don't believe we learned a name for people like her, because quite frankly they're pretty rare, not many people are willing to stand up to a bully, but she's the one who attempts to stop the bullying.

That's my attempted analysis of the main characters involved in SWM, sorry if it's bad, I did try, all the other people there I'd classify as bystanders.


Etym: Latin, "appendage" and "death".

CLK Ginny: Personally, I find what Sirius does to be just as awful as what James does. Taking control of someone and not allowing them to fight back is rather cowardly and unfair. It's interesting that he uses a spell that means "appendage death," as if that is the spell you might use if you wanted to cut off someone's arm or leg in a battle. Yuck - I need more caffeine, too.
I think that what Sirius did was just as bad too, personally, the only person in that scene who doesn't make me dissappointed in them is Lily.

Fire in the Sky: That is an awesome list - Thank You!

I totally agree that Lupin is a classic bystander, and that puts him on the level of all the other people standing around, except that he isn't laughing. Others who are watching are described as looking "apprehensive." That is how I would characterize Lupin because of the "frown line" that appears between his eyes. I can imagine a struggle going on inside Lupin, as he knows that he is a particular friend of the bully and the henchmen, yet he does nothing. I disagree with many of the Lupin fans who think it is enough that he makes them "sometimes feel ashamed" after the fact. How does that help the victim? It doesn't.

I believe Lily displays a rare courage, too.

Here are some links I copied back in January. They are probably on the version of this thread that got "lost."

http://www.challengingbehavior.com/excerpts.html

An audience is the lifeblood of a child who bullies. The bystanders’ reactions—their active assistance, comments, and laughter—encourage, reinforce, and even incite his behavior (Slaby, 1997).

In the Toronto schoolyard study, peers joined in with words or actions 21 percent of the time in each bullying episode (O’Connell et al., 1999).

Even children who observe quietly are lending support to the bullying behavior by sending the message that they condone it (O’Connell et al., 1999).

The same playground study found that peers were silent witnesses 54 percent of the time during each bullying incident.

Children stood up for the child being bullied just 11 percent of the time, and when they did they often made a difference (Pepler and Craig, 2000).

http://www.flagteaparty.org/Publications/Headlines/Pages/2001/July_Aug2001/TheScarsCanLastaLifetime.html

The scars can last a lifetime

Many bullied children turn their psychological pain inward and become socially withdrawn. From a child’s point of view, frequent ridicule, ostracization or assault by peers can be devastating. A child’s peers constitute her social world. Many bullied children have a hard time making friends due to social rejection. Their “outsider” status impedes the development of their social skills, making them more of a target. Some victims skip classes or drop out of school to avoid being bullied. Other victims may instead become more rebellious.

The physical and psychological injury caused by bullying is proportional to the frequency and severity of bullying, and the number of years a student is bullied.

Victims of . . . assault may receive bruises, lacerations, broken bones and internal injuries.

Psychological injuries include anxiety, embarrassment, guilt, loneliness, loss of self-esteem, depression, psychosomatic, sleep, speech and dissociative disorders, panic attacks, paranoia, obsessive compulsive disorder, self-mutilation, and delays in physical, mental and emotional development. The most severely bullied students develop Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, like many domestic violence and child abuse victims.

Research indicates a strong correlation between bullying and suicide. . . .


. . . The JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) study found that bullies “reported greater ease in making friends, indicating that bullies are not socially isolated. … It is likely that these youth have friends who endorse bullying and other problem behaviors, and who may be involved in bullying as well.” However, “Olweus describes a small subset of bullied youth he terms “provocative victims,’ individuals who demonstrate both anxious and aggressive behavior patterns and who are known for starting fights and engaging in disruptive behavior.”

Students who are both bullies and victims have the poorest psychosocial functioning, with a higher risk of depression and suicidal thoughts than other children.

Olweus reports that 60 percent of boys identified as bullies in middle school had one criminal conviction by age 24. In addition, childhood bullies often grow up to become workplace bullies.

Student bystanders are also affected by witnessing bullying incidents. There are four types of bystanders:

· Those who enjoy watching the harassment without being directly involved.

· Those who “set up” the conflict and may encourage the bully.

· The “victim” bystander, who is too fearful to intervene.

· The “avoidant” bystander, who denies there is a problem.

The first two types of bystanders may have psychological commonalities to bullies, or may be bullies themselves at other times. The other two bystander types are “accessory” victims. Research on child witnesses to domestic violence shows that they develop psychological problems merely from watching domestic violence incidents. At the very least, witnessing repeated bullying at school desensitizes students, allowing them to dismiss bullying as a normal part of growing up.

Quote from Silver Ink Pot:
An audience is the lifeblood of a child who bullies. The bystanders’ reactions—their active assistance, comments, and laughter—encourage, reinforce, and even incite his behavior (Slaby, 1997).
This sentence got me thinking about the Willow incident...what was the point of it? There's no audience, no bystanders egging Sirius on so why did he do it? Earlier I mentioned about the differences between James and Sirius in regards to attention from fellow students...could this be an example. Whereas James bullies Snape for the attention and limelight that he gets could Sirius have a different reason?

This sentence got me thinking about the Willow incident...what was the point of it? There's no audience, no bystanders egging Sirius on so why did he do it? Earlier I mentioned about the differences between James and Sirius in regards to attention from fellow students...could this be an example. Whereas James bullies Snape for the attention and limelight that he gets could Sirius have a different reason?Sirius must have had a different reason. The stunt at the willow wasn't to get a cheer from the other kids, and it wasn't a show. I think Sirius didn't want to scare him just for a laugh, there's something personal about it that we don't know yet.

Interesting (depressing) information, silver ink pot and fire in the sky.

I'm goingt to be picky (and this would be different exactly how...?)...In SWM, James isn't bored; it's Sirius--James spots Snape and points him out to Sirius as a cure for Sirius' boredom: "This'll liven you up, Padfoot" (p. 645, US hardcover). The two of them stand up together, although James addresses Snape first. I'd classify them as equal bullies; James can only get the slight edge for noticing Snape first and so picking the target. After that, the two of them are fairly equal in the attack--Sirius' acts being, most notably, the rendering of Snape harmless.

An extreme form of the Lupin non-intervention, I think, is the one who is afraid of stepping in for fear of becoming the next victim. I see that quite frequently at school: the hangers on of the 'cool' group, who don't quite fit in but are accepted; they clearly don't like some of the behaviors they witness--and even participate in--but they're terribly afraid of being cut out of the herd, so to speak. Not to say that Lupin is such a one, but there is a touch of the inlfuence of the thinking in his fear of losing his friends. Snape isn't worth the risk.

Fire in the Sky: That is an awesome list - Thank You!
Thanks. :)

I believe Lily displays a rare courage, too.
Lily is pretty interesting, I assume that she must have pretty high self esteem to not be worrying about what other people say. Not high enough for her to be arrogant like Sirius, but confident in herself and happy with who she is. I have a friend who sticks up for kids who get bullied everytime she sees it, and she's very confident in who she is and doesn't worry what other people think of her, I picture Lily to be a lot like my friend.

The same playground study found that peers were silent witnesses 54 percent of the time during each bullying incident.
Wow, actually at my school I bet that it's even a higher number than that, it's really upsetting, but many people just sit back and let others get bullied.


Children stood up for the child being bullied just 11 percent of the time, and when they did they often made a difference (Pepler and Craig, 2000).
That's really sad, if only the other 89 percent or so would start sticking u for the children being bullied. Hey, I'd even settle for 20 percent, but I don't think that will happen. :sigh:


I'm goingt to be picky (and this would be different exactly how...?)...In SWM, James isn't bored; it's Sirius--James spots Snape and points him out to Sirius as a cure for Sirius' boredom: "This'll liven you up, Padfoot" (p. 645, US hardcover). The two of them stand up together, although James addresses Snape first. I'd classify them as equal bullies; James can only get the slight edge for noticing Snape first and so picking the target. After that, the two of them are fairly equal in the attack--Sirius' acts being, most notably, the rendering of Snape harmless.
You're right, however; now I'm going to change my answer earlier and say that I think that Sirius is another hard one to classify, I can see him being a bully, but he doesn't seem to be the bully throughout the majority of the scene, James appears to take over and then we see the James-Lily encounter. I'm going back to reread SWM, do you guys know how many times I've reread that since I've started posting in this thread? ;)


An extreme form of the Lupin non-intervention, I think, is the one who is afraid of stepping in for fear of becoming the next victim. I see that quite frequently at school: the hangers on of the 'cool' group, who don't quite fit in but are accepted; they clearly don't like some of the behaviors they witness--and even participate in--but they're terribly afraid of being cut out of the herd, so to speak. Not to say that Lupin is such a one, but there is a touch of the inlfuence of the thinking in his fear of losing his friends. Snape isn't worth the risk.
Exactly, not to mention his fear of not being accepted by anyone else, the Marauders became his friends even though he was a werewolf, I don't believe that he thought many others would be as good of friends to him as the Marauders were.

This sentence got me thinking about the Willow incident...what was the point of it? There's no audience, no bystanders egging Sirius on so why did he do it? Earlier I mentioned about the differences between James and Sirius in regards to attention from fellow students...could this be an example. Whereas James bullies Snape for the attention and limelight that he gets could Sirius have a different reason?
Well I just believe that we're going to have to wait until we get the full story behind the WW incident, before we can completely answer this, but I'd assume that it was a spur of the moment thing, he didn't worry about who was around, or who saw him.

By the way Silver Ink Pot those were some great links. :)

Lily chastises James; while they talk, it's Sirius who notices that Snape can move again. The hanging upside down occurs; again, the same people laugh at this, and, this time, Lily almost smiles--but she makes James release Snape.Just because I'm perseverating on Kohlberg's levels, I'll say that I've decided Lily must be at level 4 (law and order) based on this near smile. She's doing what she believes is moral--upholding her duties as prefect and attempting to enforce the rules--but the smile seems to indicate that she doesn't really have a problem with what James is doing. She's not outraged by the violation of Snape's basic rights not to be humiliated or she wouldn't smile. Perhaps Lily is the real reason that James attacks Snape. He knows that she'll try to intervene and it will give him an opportunity to speak with her. He doesn't anticipate her negative response to him as a person.

James: The bully, many people didn't really help matters much, but James instigated the attack, he was the one who did most of the torturing, he was proud of what he did, and he had no apparent reason to torture Snape aside from the fact that he was just bored.

Sirius: I would classify Sirius as a Henchman, these are the people who aren't the initial bully, but they are friends of the bully, and either laugh and egg the bully on, or they help the bully. They can be just as bad as the bully because they are helping matters progress and just get worse, not many people are bullies without henchmen, because the henchmen are there to back up the bullies. Since Sirius immobilized Snape, but didn't really do as much as James to him, I would place him as a henchman.


I actually disagree slightly. I think that Sirius, not James, is the instigator of the attack on Snape. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling during this whole scene that James is seeking approval. Twice we see James acting in a way that suggests he cares about Sirius's approval. First he only puts the snitch away once Sirius tells him to:
'"Put that away, will you," said Sirius...
"If it bother you," [James] said, stuffing the snitch back in his pocket. Harry had the distinct impression that Sirius was the only one for whom James would have stopped showing off.'
Secondly James begins the whole attack (it appears) on the fact that Sirius is bored: "This'll liven you up, Padfoot", These actions seems to suggest that James cares very much about Sirius's approval, which would place Sirius as the 'alpha male' in the group. I get the feeling that if Sirius had responded by saying something like: "oh, it's only Snivellus", and not taken interest, James would have let it lie. James's thirst for approval is also evident by the way he keeps checking the crowd's approval of his actions. As long as the crowd laughs -especially Sirius- he feels his actions are justified. We can infer that Lupin does not approve by his posture ('Lupin was still staring down at his book, though his eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had appeared between his eyebrows.') and his refusal to laugh at James and Sirius's antics. However, Lupin's silence goes unnoticed. Lily's clear disapproval is the only thing which seems to permeate James's conscience, yet while he still has the attention and approval of the crowd he simply turns his frustration with her into misplaced anger at Snape. James it seems is spurred on by the opinions of those around him. Sirius on the other hand seems almost oblivious, and certainly uninterested, in gaining the others' approval. Not once during the scene do Sirius's actions demonstrate a seeking of approval from either the crowd en mass or James individually. Looking at it in this way I would suggest that James is allowed to lead the group's actions, but only with Sirius's approval. Ultimately Sirius controls the situation.

Incidentally if this is true we need to think about why Sirius holds this position of power. I think that Harry, like James, also craves Sirius's approval.
It is also important to note that both Harry and James appear to go against Sirius's opinion at one point or another. Perhaps they experience a similar disillisionment with their natural leader...


Pettigrew: I see him as another Henchman, he didn't hold Snape like Sirius did, but he did laugh, which could have egged James on, he supported the bullying.

Lupin: I wouldn't classify Lupin as a Henchman because he didn't laugh or do anything to egg James on, he also didn't help the bullying, the only contribution he made to help the bullying progress was by staying silent. I believe that Lupin is a classic bystander, the person who knows what the bully is doing is wrong, and either does care, but is too afraid to say anything or doesn't care at all, I believe Lupin is the former, I think that he did care, but was too afraid of saying anything.

Snape: He's kind of hard to classify, he's obviously a victim, the object of the bullying, but I believe that the way he treats Lily could almost put him in the bully category, so I think that he's a victim, with a little bit of a bully as well.

Lily: Another hard one to classify, I don't believe we learned a name for people like her, because quite frankly they're pretty rare, not many people are willing to stand up to a bully, but she's the one who attempts to stop the bullying.


I agree with these statements. Overall I find myself disappointed with the behaviour of all the marauders. Lupin displays classic low self-esteem traits. He lacks the confidence to voice his disapproval of his friends. Perhaps he feels they would turn on him, or it is also possible that he simply does not think his opinion would matter to them. I think that his opinion would matter, especially to James...

I was just wondering what you thought of the ways in which Sirius, James and Snape use to hurt each other. James focuses on humiliating Snape. I think this is because, to James, being embarrassed in front of your peers is the worst thing that could happen to you. James's ego is both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness in the scene. Sirius focuses on personal insults. Perhaps to Sirius the worst thing would be to be judged solely on what you are. Sirius picks on things that Snape cannot help, i.e., his appearance. The worst thing for Sirius could be if people turned on him simply for what he cannot help, i.e., being part of the Black family, which he seems to hate. Snape responds not with humilation or personal insults, but with violence. This could suggest his hatred of James is on a much deeper level than James' hatred of him...

I'm not sure if that all made sense... Hopefully you can get the general gist... My analysis is probably very basic and lacks a lot of depth. If you've already discussed these ideas to death, feel free to ignore this post!

I actually disagree slightly. I think that Sirius, not James, is the instigator of the attack on Snape. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling during this whole scene that James is seeking approval. Twice we see James acting in a way that suggests he cares about Sirius's approval. First he only puts the snitch away once Sirius tells him to:
'"Put that away, will you," said Sirius...
"If it bother you," [James] said, stuffing the snitch back in his pocket. Harry had the distinct impression that Sirius was the only one for whom James would have stopped showing off.'
Secondly James begins the whole attack (it appears) on the fact that Sirius is bored: "This'll liven you up, Padfoot", These actions seems to suggest that James cares very much about Sirius's approval, which would place Sirius as the 'alpha male' in the group. I get the feeling that if Sirius had responded by saying something like: "oh, it's only Snivellus", and not taken interest, James would have let it lie. James's thirst for approval is also evident by the way he keeps checking the crowd's approval of his actions. As long as the crowd laughs -especially Sirius- he feels his actions are justified. We can infer that Lupin does not approve by his posture ('Lupin was still staring down at his book, though his eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had appeared between his eyebrows.') and his refusal to laugh at James and Sirius's antics. However, Lupin's silence goes unnoticed. Lily's clear disapproval is the only thing which seems to permeate James's conscience, yet while he still has the attention and approval of the crowd he simply turns his frustration with her into misplaced anger at Snape. James it seems is spurred on by the opinions of those around him. Sirius on the other hand seems almost oblivious, and certainly uninterested, in gaining the others' approval. Not once during the scene do Sirius's actions demonstrate a seeking of approval from either the crowd en mass or James individually. Looking at it in this way I would suggest that James is allowed to lead the group's actions, but only with Sirius's approval. Ultimately Sirius controls the situation.

Incidentally if this is true we need to think about why Sirius holds this position of power. I think that Harry, like James, also craves Sirius's approval.
It is also important to note that both Harry and James appear to go against Sirius's opinion at one point or another. Perhaps they experience a similar disillisionment with their natural leader...

First of all :welcome: I saw your post on the previous page and I'm glad that you decided to come and join the conversation, I hope you have fun. :)

I'm still going to go with my theory that James and Sirius more share the role as leader of the Marauders.

I can see how Sirius can be preceived as the instigator of SWM, but I don't think he really was. Yes, I think that James may have been looking for Sirius' approval at some points, like the snitch scene that you brought up, but not then, there are other ways that James could have made Sirius less bored, I think that James wanted to bother Snape as much as he thought Sirius would, in which case James really instigated it because he wanted to pick on Snape too and was the one to first bring it up. Had James not told Sirius Snape was coming Sirius might not have seen him and SWM wouldn't have happened so James brought it up and wanted to bother Snape too. Also, if James was seeking Sirius' approval, which I believe is still a logical theory, he didn't have to, Sirius didn't force him to bring Snape into his boredom. Not to mention it has always seemed to me that while Sirius and Snape were obviously enemies, James and Snape were greater adversaries, I could be wrong on that though, it's just what I preceived the situation to be like. I kind of rambled, but I'm having trouble putting my idea into words right now. :blush:

Great post though, you put a lot of thought into it, and brought up some wonderful points! You also gave me a lot to think about, I hope you'll continue to post here. :)


I was just wondering what you thought of the ways in which Sirius, James and Snape use to hurt each other. James focuses on humiliating Snape. I think this is because, to James, being embarrassed in front of your peers is the worst thing that could happen to you. James's ego is both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness in the scene. Sirius focuses on personal insults. Perhaps to Sirius the worst thing would be to be judged solely on what you are. Sirius picks on things that Snape cannot help, i.e., his appearance. The worst thing for Sirius could be if people turned on him simply for what he cannot help, i.e., being part of the Black family, which he seems to hate. Snape responds not with humilation or personal insults, but with violence. This could suggest his hatred of James is on a much deeper level than James' hatred of him...

This is absolutely brilliant! I think that you're right, I never focused on the different ways that James and Sirius bully Snape. :tu:

:welcome: Hi, Sunshine! Your post was great!

I waffle when I try to decide who is the ring leader of the Marauders. When I look at what actually happens, as in Fire's model, it seems that James is leader. But when I look at James trying to "please" Sirius, as in your model, then that makes alot of sense, too.

My natural inclination is to blame Sirius as the instigator, since his fear of boredom is what inspires James to bully Snape. On the other hand (waffling again :rolleyes: ), James is so cold and brutal in what he does, and at the same time expecting everyone to think how wonderful he is, that I hold James accountable for his own actions.

Fire in the Sky: Glad you liked the links! :tu:

Quote from Chievrefueil:
Just because I'm perseverating on Kohlberg's levels, I'll say that I've decided Lily must be at level 4 (law and order) based on this near smile. She's doing what she believes is moral--upholding her duties as prefect and attempting to enforce the rules--but the smile seems to indicate that she doesn't really have a problem with what James is doing. She's not outraged by the violation of Snape's basic rights not to be humiliated or she wouldn't smile. Perhaps Lily is the real reason that James attacks Snape. He knows that she'll try to intervene and it will give him an opportunity to speak with her. He doesn't anticipate her negative response to him as a person.
That smile of Lily's is one of the most particular parts of SWM...I remember noting it the first time that I read OotP. What does it mean? Surely she's not impressed with James's abilities or his habits. Does she feel that Snape got what he deserved. To me Lily's smile at least represents a chance that SWM wasn't a case of "super-extreme bullying/school violence" but rather a fairly normal case for a prefect like her to handle.

Just because I'm perseverating on Kohlberg's levels, I'll say that I've decided Lily must be at level 4 (law and order) based on this near smile. She's doing what she believes is moral--upholding her duties as prefect and attempting to enforce the rules--but the smile seems to indicate that she doesn't really have a problem with what James is doing. She's not outraged by the violation of Snape's basic rights not to be humiliated or she wouldn't smile. Perhaps Lily is the real reason that James attacks Snape. He knows that she'll try to intervene and it will give him an opportunity to speak with her. He doesn't anticipate her negative response to him as a person.

The only thing is, is that when she's talking to James she's talking "coldly" she seems to be very upset with what's happening to Snape. I don't think she did it out of feeling responsible to as a Prefect, I think that she honestly thinks that it's wrong and doesn't want it to continue. She was at first furious, and when her face "twitched for an nstant as though she was going to smile..." (OotP U.S. Hardback page 648) she perhaps was going to smile, but realized that what was happening was wrong, and surpressed the urge to smile, she didn't have to stick up for Snape like she did, the other Gryffindor fifth year Prefect (Lupin) wasn't doing anything to stop it, so nobody would have expected the Prefects to intervine, even after Snape insults Lily, calling her a "filthy litttle Mudblood" (OotP U.S. Hardback page 648) does she laugh at him, she just leaves the situation alone, she does offer a taunt, which I can understand why she did, but it was still wrong.

Are you all back to the bully thing again? :rolleyes:

Snape is and always was the only bully.

And Lily was a prefect flirting with James. She's didn't give a rat's derriere about Snape.

Sunshine9--Welcome!! Excellent post, great ideas! And, while I certainly can't speak for others...for myself: I don't care if a topic has been 'discussed to death.' Invariably, I find that new contributors to any topic come up with fresh insights that would've been missed had we all just assumed, 'oh, it's that topic again' and skipped the discussion.

(I really hope that didn't sound really stuffy; I haven't made my way through my coffee yet!)

I'm still leaning toward Sirius and James being about equal, although I also think you're absolutely on target with their behavior and motives in SWM. I think they have a symbiotic relationship: James gets an ego boost through approval from the 'tough kid'--the runaway who defied his Dark family; Sirius gets respectability through association with the 'normal kid' (this goes back to a comparison I made a few pages ago between them and Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn).

Chievrefueil--I agree with your estimation of Lily's level. While she shows courage in confronting the bullies, she isn't perfect (nobody in the books is; and, yes, I prefer that realism); the smile proves it. I don't think this indicates that SWM was an ordinary or typical event; I think that, just like the onlookers, she didn't much like Snape personally and she found the view of him flipped upside down amusing. Not very nice...but not surprising for her age. What outweighs that is the surprise that, for her age, she was willing to step up and confront the wrongdoers.

Arrgghh--I don't have PoA at hand (when in danger or in doubt, run for the books!); I do have OotP within reach, and locomotor mortis is the spell Sirius uses in SWM--and it makes Snape "rigid as a board" (p. 648). Hmmm?
I thought the spell that made Snape float in PoA was "Mobillicorpus."
Locomotor Mortis: Incantation for the Leg-Locker Curse.
Etym: Latin, "appendage" and "death".
Okay, my mistake. I'm sorry, Subtle.

I got confused by the etymology. Locomotor is the spell they use for moving things, such as Locomotor trunk. Mortis means dead body. So I thought Locomotor Mortis was the move corpse/unconscious body spell. But I was wrong. Sorry.
I was involved in an anti-bullying campaign last year, where I learned some titles for people involved in an act of bullying, so here's my thoughts on it.
Very good list, Fire! Silver Ink Pot and I thought maybe someone should write an essay on Snape and bullying and try to get it published as a Mugglenet editorial. Silver said I should do it, and I said Silver should do it, but now I think you should do it!

And :welcome: Sunshine9! Good post!

CLK Ginny: Personally, I find what Sirius does to be just as awful as what James does. Taking control of someone and not allowing them to fight back is rather cowardly and unfair. It's interesting that he uses a spell that means "appendage death," as if that is the spell you might use if you wanted to cut off someone's arm or leg in a battle. Yuck - I need more caffeine, too.

Ahem...um--Good morning. Kind of forgot to be mannerly before. My case: too much coffee and now easily distracted....... : )

I agree with silver ink pot--I think Sirius is pretty much on an equal footing with James throughout SWM; they divide the taunting and spellcasting between them. I will note that James is the one who pushes it to hanging Snape upside down--but that's in direct response to Snape's slashing spell. I've realized, for myself, that the reason I originally did have the impression that James was the more active player in this episode was that Snape virtually ignores Sirius and focuses exclusively on James...And yet, it's Sirius who proffers what should be the most offensive insults and who immobilizes Snape. A puzzlement, as The King would say.......…
Oh, my! I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that I thought Sirius was somehow not as bad as James in that scene. I was trying to classify their involvement. Obviously, I hadn't had enough caffeine to make a sensible post. I feel James did the most reprehensible act in that scene (he was the one who did the physical violence, aside from Snape's reaction), but that doesn't mean I think that Sirius should get a pass. He was the one who kept Snape around for James to toy with (where I said the equivalent to holding the arms so the bully can hit them). I don't think that actively helping the bully is any better than being the bully. I hope this makes more sense this time.

Sirius: I would classify Sirius as a Henchman, these are the people who aren't the initial bully, but they are friends of the bully, and either laugh and egg the bully on, or they help the bully. They can be just as bad as the bully because they are helping matters progress and just get worse, not many people are bullies without henchmen, because the henchmen are there to back up the bullies. Since Sirius immobilized Snape, but didn't really do as much as James to him, I would place him as a henchman.
Thank-you. You put that so much better than I did.

:welcome: Sunshine9, very nice post, and thank-you for your kind comments.

A round of coffee for everyone--except me; I've had my quota now for the morning, and we've all seen the havoc extra caffeine wreaks on my posts! : ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't read everything here, so forgive me if I repeat anything.

Your analysis is excellent, FireInTheSky! :clap: I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. James: The bully, many people didn't really help matters much, but James instigated the attack, he was the one who did most of the torturing, he was proud of what he did, and he had no apparent reason to torture Snape aside from the fact that he was just bored.James is indeed the classic bully, who torments his victim for no good reason. As was pointed out before, James is the one who does most of the damaging spell work on Snape.

Sirius: I would classify Sirius as a Henchman, these are the people who aren't the initial bully, but they are friends of the bully, and either laugh and egg the bully on, or they help the bully. They can be just as bad as the bully because they are helping matters progress and just get worse, not many people are bullies without henchmen, because the henchmen are there to back up the bullies. Since Sirius immobilized Snape, but didn't really do as much as James to him, I would place him as a henchman.I agree with clkginny that Sirius was the one to assist James by "holding his arms down", so to speak. I agree that despite the fact that Sirius wasn't doing the primary tormenting, he was still just as bad as James because he made it possible for James to come in and perform those spells on Snape while Snape was immobilized. But I can also see a bit of actual bully in Sirius, because even though he doesn't do most of the spellwork, he attacks Snape verbally with the cracks about his appearance. So in this manner, I would call James a physical bully and Sirius a henchman in terms of assisting what James was doing, but I'd also include a bit of "bully" in Sirius's actions for verbally bullying Snape.

Pettigrew: I see him as another Henchman, he didn't hold Snape like Sirius did, but he did laugh, which could have egged James on, he supported the bullying.I've always seen Peter as the "bully support unit" for James and Sirius, the one who quite enjoyed seeing Snape getting tormented. This goes along with the idea that Peter always liked to be on the "winning" side of things, and here we can see that Sirius and James were clearly on the "winning" side while Snape was on the "losing" side. I agree that Peter definitely egged them on- in fact, I believe that his main role whenever the Marauders did anything was to give support to and fuel whatever Sirius and James were doing. This is especially so since he idolized them.

Lupin: I wouldn't classify Lupin as a Henchman because he didn't laugh or do anything to egg James on, he also didn't help the bullying, the only contribution he made to help the bullying progress was by staying silent. I believe that Lupin is a classic bystander, the person who knows what the bully is doing is wrong, and either does care, but is too afraid to say anything or doesn't care at all, I believe Lupin is the former, I think that he did care, but was too afraid of saying anything. Sorry to Lupin fans, but being a bystander can be just about as bad as being a bully, because they know what is happening is wrong, but yet do nothing to stop it, I am not calling Lupin a bad person nor am I saying that SWM is his fault, not at all, but that he could have done more to stop it. Although, I'd see why he wouldn't, his self esteem was seemingly quite low, and the Marauders accepted him, I doubt he wanted to jeopardize that strong friendship.As a Lupin fan, I can objectively say that this wasn't one of Lupin's good moments- it was a time when his flaw showed up. But at the same time, I wouldn't place him on the same level as Sirius and James here. I know that being a bystander can perpetuate something that is wrong, and that this should not be condoned, but there's also the matter of all those people who were laughing at Snape during that scene. I'd place them as bystanders too- bystanders who didn't care/enjoyed watching Snape get tormented. So while what Lupin did was certainly not morally right (and I believe he did indeed realize this), it was at least better than all of the people who stood by and laughed at Snape's humiliation.

Snape: He's kind of hard to classify, he's obviously a victim, the object of the bullying, but I believe that the way he treats Lily could almost put him in the bully category, so I think that he's a victim, with a little bit of a bully as well.I didn't think of it that way, but now that you mention it, I agree. :D Though, I also see Snape's reaction to Lily as a defense of sorts. In a way, by standing up for him, I think Lily wounded Snape's pride. So he retaliated with the "mudblood" comment because he was upset that she had to defend him. So in a way, though what Snape said was inexcusable, it was almost like a defense mechanism.

Lily: Another hard one to classify, I don't believe we learned a name for people like her, because quite frankly they're pretty rare, not many people are willing to stand up to a bully, but she's the one who attempts to stop the bullying.Something that always puzzles me about Lily in this scene is the fact that she looks like she was trying to keep from smiling when Snape was hung upside-down. And her comment to Snape, telling him to wash his pants is also puzzling. She seems to do a complete turn-around. That's not to say that she all of a sudden condones what James is doing, but it does seem like a cpntradiction to her earlier viewpoint. Perhaps she was trying to say that both Snape and James were acting in a juvinile manner?