Deconstructing the Marauders V.9

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grrliz
March 18th, 2005, 4:54 pm
Welcome to Version 9!

1) Machiavelli's General Disclaimer
1. We do not condone violence and the victim is not to blame.
2. We cannot judge anyone on the basis of a single incident.
3. People are not single dimensional and cannot be handily sorted into 'good' and 'bad'.
4. No matter how attractive someone is (fan girls, breath deeply now) they are still responsible for their choices.
5. These are just characters in a book and we can only base arguments on the text as given - arguments making assumptions must be recognized as being somewhat weak.
6. Everyone has a right to their opinion - and must be given respect.
7. There is a difference between doing bad things and being a bad person.
8. As divided as this thread can get, no one is to be labeled a "Sevage" for supporting Snape or a "Maudie" for supporting James or Sirius. It is not fair and quite inappropriate to assume that someone is a fangirl just for supporting a certain side.

Finally, if you're new to the thread, glance back at the older version to get an idea of what has been discussed, and welcome!

2) A List of Links to All Versions of Previous Threads For Quick Reference
Version 1
Version 2
Version 3
Version 4
Version 5
Version 6
Version 7 is MIA
Version 8

3) The last post in Version 8, for reference
:clap: I forgot you were a Mugwump, too! All of you Mugwumps are nice!

(I'm more of a "Grand Poobah" type, myself, lol - "Lord High Everything Else" from Gilbert and Sullivan.)



Welcome, Desraelda! :welcome:

I think I learned alot about British history from many of those mini-series of the 1970s. Another one that showed the class system so well was "Flambards," which is one of my all-time favorite shows (I own the DVD! :love: ). It seems to me that the Wizarding World is in a similar state to British society just before WWI, as in Flambards. The world was changing due to more open ideas about servants and masters - they make fun of the word "medieval" alot in that series. Alot of role-reversals and justice, as the war treated everyone the same and women gained more power (jobs and the right to vote.) It also showed the way women were treated like servants, and servants were often treated like animals - similar to the Wizarding World.

Alot of young people aren't familiar with these British series - another good one (though more soap-operaish) was Poldark. It is a shame because they taught my generation a world of things about history and were just good stories. That's why so many things in the Potter books seem "new" to American kids, but not to some of us.

clkginny
March 18th, 2005, 5:26 pm
I think alot of that would have to do with specific history of America versus Britain. We didn't really have the class structure over here, no hereditary lords and landed gentry. We did have slavery, though, and our (I hope) national view of slavery tends to identify with the affluent slave owner beating the slaves (a la Uncle Tom's Cabin). It might be different back east, somewhat, but here in the west it is hard to understand a fuedal system in any respect. Although, I've often wondered exactly how different the fuedal system was from slavery.

Of course, I was born in the 70's, so perhaps I'm a kid, too. :p

shaggydogstail
March 18th, 2005, 7:15 pm
I think alot of that would have to do with specific history of America versus Britain. We didn't really have the class structure over here, no hereditary lords and landed gentry. We did have slavery, though, and our (I hope) national view of slavery tends to identify with the affluent slave owner beating the slaves (a la Uncle Tom's Cabin). It might be different back east, somewhat, but here in the west it is hard to understand a fuedal system in any respect. Although, I've often wondered exactly how different the fuedal system was from slavery.There were certainly similarities between feudal bondage and slavery. Serfs were 'bonded' to the Lord of the Manor and during feudal times it was commonplace for servants' children to serve their masters' children and so on for generations. Peasants had almost no legal rights and were often ruthlessly exploited as were domestic servants. Servants and serfs could legally leave their masters sometimes, but in practice those that did so were often condemned to destitution as they had no means of owning land to produce for themselves. That they had the 'right' to leave is an important distinction from slavery, but it make limited practical difference as there is little use in having rights if you cannot afford to exercise them. As someone once said of other legal rights 'British Justice is open to all; just like the doors of the Ritz Hotel'.

Feudal arrangements were a precursor to slavery in the British Empire. In the early days of the Carribbean sugar plantations, wealthy landowners shipped 'indentured servants' from Britain and Ireland to work for them, under horrible conditions. When the supply of labour ran out (due to rising employment opportunities afforded to the British peasantry by the beginning of the Industrial Revolution) they then turned to the slave trade, which soon became central to the success of British Industrialisation generating massive amounts of wealth both by the trade in slaves, and the use of their labour to produce cash crops.

The important distinctions between slavery and feudalism were both the concept of ownership (which did exist under feudalism, but was more pronounced under slavery) and, most importantly, the value judgements entailed. Under the feudal system it was commonly believed that individuals were allocated their station in life by God - 'The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate, the Lord God made them both and put them in their place,' as the hymn 'All Things Bright and Beautiful' puts it. The rise in Enlightenment thinking, which corresponded with the Industrial Revolution challenged this notion, developing the ideas of what we now know as 'human rights' those 'self-evident truths...that all men are created equal'. The concept of slavery was so clearly at odds with those ideals that its supporters propegated notions of racial difference, specifically the idea that people of African origins were somehow so 'inferior' to those with European origins as to not qualify for the rights that were afforded by God to all men. (And of course, they really did mean men!)Slaves came to be seen not as fellow humans afforded a lesser station in life by God, but almost as a sub-specis, either not quite human or not so fully evolved as Europeans. These distinctions are clearly racist lies, though sadly the obnoxious doctrine of racial difference is still come way from being completely existinguished.

In this respect (she said, furiously trying to paddle back from British History 101 towards Potterverse) house elves are more analogous to slaves than serfs. The difference is that they clearly are different species to Wizards, so it is harder to judge to what extent their servility is down to oppression and indoctrination, and what is genuinely in their nature. The confusion about the relative status of different species in the Magical World is very apparent in 'Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them' where JKR gives an amusing account of the Ministry's attempts to categorise everyone into 'Beasts' or 'Beings' with fairly disastorous results. The most human-like of the magical creatures - centaurs and merpeople - insist on being categorised as Beasts rather than Beings, such is their disgust at the whole debacle.

I'm not sure what the message is, other than to point to the folly of trying to categorise and draw boundaries. The three house-elf characters have very different personalities and ideas, whilst the most repugnant elements of the house-elves behaviour, their cringing servility, is also displayed by Wizards - I'm thinking here of the Death Eaters kissing Voldemort's robes.

This relates to Lupin (HA! A Marauder, I am totally On Topic! :p ). As a werewolf Lupin is at the heart of this confusion. He is very much a human character and JKR presents him as a Wizard inflicted with a terrible disease. Yet werewolves are considered dangerous animals, and the Ministry has departments dealing with werewolves in both the Beasts and Beings divsions. The contrasts in Lupin are so pronounced as to be obviously deliberate. During his transformations Lupin becomes a terrifying and dangerous beasts, yet JKR has been at pains to depict his human character as an exceptionally kind and gentle man who is haunted by his wolfish alter-ego. Lupin's DADA classes focus on 'Dark Creatures' yet he seems to have some compassion for them, as when he mentions having a nice cupboard which the Boggart will like. I think there is an anti-prejudice message here, as again JKR seems to be pointing at the dangers of slotting species as well as individuals into easy categories, but to be honest I don't fully understand where it is all going.

grrliz
March 18th, 2005, 7:36 pm
This relates to Lupin (HA! A Marauder, I am totally On Topic! :p ). As a werewolf Lupin is at the heart of this confusion. He is very much a human character and JKR presents him as a Wizard inflicted with a terrible disease. Yet werewolves are considered dangerous animals, and the Ministry has departments dealing with werewolves in both the Beasts and Beings divsions. The contrasts in Lupin are so pronounced as to be obviously deliberate. During his transformations Lupin becomes a terrifying and dangerous beasts, yet JKR has been at pains to depict his human character as an exceptionally kind and gentle man who is haunted by his wolfish alter-ego. Lupin's DADA classes focus on 'Dark Creatures' yet he seems to have some compassion for them, as when he mentions having a nice cupboard which the Boggart will like. I think there is an anti-prejudice message here, as again JKR seems to be pointing at the dangers of slotting species as well as individuals into easy categories, but to be honest I don't fully understand where it is all going.:tu: What I find odd is that there is so much rampant prejudice against werewolves, and yet the way they are described in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them suggests that they're only considered "beasts" when actually transformed, and thus the prejudice towards lycanthropes as people is rather unwarranted.Werewolves (aren't all bad in Harry's handwriting ;))
M.O.M. Classification: XXXXXX*
The werewolf is found worldwide, though it is believed to have originated in northern Europe. Humans turn into werewolves only when bitten. There is no known cure, though recent developments in potion-making have to a great extent alleviated the worst symptoms. Once a month, at the full moon, the otherwise sane and normal wizard or Muggle afflicted transforms into a murderous beast. Almost uniquely among fantastic creatures, the werewolf actively seeks humas in preference to any other kind of prey.

*This classification refers, of course, to the werewolf in its transofmed state. When there is no full moon, the werewolf is as harmless as any other human. For a heartrending account of one wizard's battle with lycanthropy, see the classic Hairy Snout, Human Heart by an anonymous author (Whizz Hard Books, 1975).I'm interested, mostly, in the footnote where Newt Scamander makes his point that lycanthropes are perfectly safe and normal people to be around 365 days a year and 352 nights a year. While he does mention in the body of his entry on werewolves that lycanthropes are otherwise "sane and normal" when not transformed, it's sort of sad that he sort of glosses over it and only fdeals with it more fully in a footnote, because we all know no one reads footnotes. This would have been a great moment for some real evangelism on the subject of werewolf prejudice! But, alas, Scamanader missed the boat on that one. ;)

(Ugh. Serfdom. Maybe reading about it in this thread means I'll have to study less for my Medieval History exam in April. ;)}

shaggydogstail
March 18th, 2005, 8:02 pm
Originally posted by grrliz
Ugh. Serfdom. Maybe reading about it in this thread means I'll have to study less for my Medieval History exam in April. Never fear, you can always rely of Professor Shaggy, Mistress of Banging on About Boring Stuff From History to relate everything from the Spanish Inquisition to the Peasants' Revolt to Potterverse for your delight, delictation, education and relief of insomnia! :p

subtle science
March 18th, 2005, 8:03 pm
Does PoA actually contain the line "You'd know about the madness within, Remus"? I don't have the books at hand (aarrggh); right now, all I'm remembering is the line from the film.
Anyway--It's a common theme in horror literature, that the kind, gentle soul is the werewolf (even Buffy used it!). The idea underlying the concept is pretty interesting--that, unlike normal humans, the werewolf releases all of his aggression, violent tendencies, and other negative traits during the transformation. Therefore, he is wiped clean of such for the remainder of the month, as a human. It refers to the idea that human nature is divided between the spiritual and the animal, rational and irrational, civilized and savage--the legends of the werewolves illustrate the dichotomy of human nature. Hence--the movie line referring to all this..............

'Course--I rather like JKR's take on the legend, that she takes the basic format, if you will, and also makes the werewolf some sort of spy (maybe, seems so) and have to operate in a society and for the benefit of a society that generally doesn't value him at all.

silver ink pot
March 18th, 2005, 8:24 pm
CLKGinny: The Feudal System lived on in England with servants who served "Lords" and other wealthy people "on the land." I'm not sure I understand all the implications of people who sort of "belonged" to great estates, but it really was similar to slavery. Yes, they got paid wages - extremely small wages - certainly not enough to go anywhere else and start over. If you were thrown out, then you either have to find another job "without references" (almost impossible) or you had to leave your home and go to London, or if you were too old to work, you had to go to the poorhouse and die there of disease or malnutrition.

The reason their are House Elf heads on the wall at Grimmauld Place is because those are the ones who got too old to work, according to Sirius. I've never read about anything like that in the slavery of the U.S., at least! Although, slaves led such short lives anyway, due to hard work and no medical care, that it really isn't that different.

From other books I've read, I know that sometimes the trap was that servants were "free" to come and go, BUT the landed people owned the servant's houses. Also, they weren't allowed to marry or build a house without permission, even if their families had worked the same land for centuries. That is quite similar to American slavery - except the ability to leave home freely. Also, once a British servant left, they probably couldn't come back to work there ever, just like a slave! That is sort of like Winky's problem in GoF - she can't go home again.

It's interesting that often the reasons given for the Feudalistic arrangement mentions the word "Marauders." :huh: The peasants wanted protection, and in return the "Lord of the Manor" would fight off attacks by marauders.

http://www.sparknotes.com/history/european/middle2/section7.rhtml
Why did peasants buy into it? Relatively weak, they had no choice. On the more positive side, it did make some sense at the time to give one's freedom over to the local strongman who could protect against foreign marauders and local pillagers.

Interesting that the word Marauders only comes up when a historian is writing about Viking invasions or Atilla the Hun! :evil:

Here's something funny I came across, too, and I've never seen this before. Rober Silverberg is one of the most well-known science fiction writers in the world. I used to like his work alot when I was in middle school.

The picture looks as if the mad scientist has a "giant woman" strapped to a table, lol. :scared:

http://www.cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21751&stc=1

Desraelda
March 18th, 2005, 9:36 pm
Does PoA actually contain the line "You'd know about the madness within, Remus"? I don't have the books at hand (aarrggh); right now, all I'm remembering is the line from the film.
Anyway--It's a common theme in horror literature, that the kind, gentle soul is the werewolf (even Buffy used it!). The idea underlying the concept is pretty interesting--that, unlike normal humans, the werewolf releases all of his aggression, violent tendencies, and other negative traits during the transformation. Therefore, he is wiped clean of such for the remainder of the month, as a human. It refers to the idea that human nature is divided between the spiritual and the animal, rational and irrational, civilized and savage--the legends of the werewolves illustrate the dichotomy of human nature. Hence--the movie line referring to all this..............

'Course--I rather like JKR's take on the legend, that she takes the basic format, if you will, and also makes the werewolf some sort of spy (maybe, seems so) and have to operate in a society and for the benefit of a society that generally doesn't value him at all.
Another example is Wolf in The Talisman by Stephen King. After I read the book, the friend who recommended it asked me who my favorite character was and I said without hesitation, Wolf.

The Black Adder
March 18th, 2005, 10:49 pm
It's interesting that often the reasons given for the Feudalistic arrangement mentions the word "Marauders." :huh: The peasants wanted protection, and in return the "Lord of the Manor" would fight off attacks by marauders.

Well, this was the whole reason for feudalism, a system of mutual obligations, at least in the ideal. And foreign marauders weren't the only threats to the peasantry. The story of William the Conqueror is a good example. When his father the duke of Normandy died on pilgrimage leaving a young illegitimate child as his heir, his noble blood relations went crazy fighting amongst themselves and trying to kill the boy to get the dukedom. There was anarchy in Normandy. William's guardians went to the french king, his liegelord, for help in restoring order, and it was said that the peasants were particularly relieved to see the king's army.

When William came to maturity and established himself, it was said that a man could walk the countryside with a bag of gold and a woman could walk alone unmolested in Normandy for fear of the duke. Even after he made himself the king of England, the one or two positive things the Anglo-Saxon chronicles will say about him is that he established the peace and sought to uphold the English laws.

Sorry to de-lurk here out of the blue. I have no idea what this has to do with Harry Potter. I just find the story of William the Conqueror sort of fascinating. :blush:

Re-lurking

silver ink pot
March 19th, 2005, 12:49 am
I believe it says in the Intro to Fantastic Beasts that werewolves are handled as humans, but when they have transformed they are considered beasts. From the section, "What is a Beast":

We are all familiar with the extremists who campaign for the classification of Muggles as "beasts"; we are all aware that the centaurs have refused "being" status and requested to remain "beasts"; werewolves, meanwhile, have been shunted between the Beast and Being divisions for many years; at the time of writing there is an office for Werewolf Support Services at the Being Division whereas the Werewolf Registry and Werewolf Capture Unit fall under the Beast Division. Several highly intelligent creatures are classified as "beasts" because they are incapable of overcoming their own brutal natures. Acromantulas and Manticores are capable of intelligent speech but will attempt to devour any human that goes near them. The sphinx talks only in puzzles and riddles, and is violent when given the wrong answer.

That is really more confusing than anything else. But I think Lupin may be one of the few werewolves in Britain who has ever had a friend. The treatment the group has received has to figure in to the next two books, I would think. I wish some of this information was in the main canon, and we could hear the characters talk about it more.

It seems ironic to me that animagi might not be considered "beasts" even though they have no control over what animal they turn into. A person could technically turn into something just as deadly as werewolf whenever they wanted to, whereas a werewolf has no choice. Maybe that is why animagi are "listed" with the Ministry. But as we know, there are ways to get around it.

What I'm trying to say is, from Lupin's or any werewolf's point of view, it really isn't fair that some animagi don't have to register as "Beasts." Especially a pureblood wizard like Sirius Black can have all the advantages of wizarding society, even if he chooses to be a dog all the time, but a registered werewolf can't. There are too many gray areas in magic.

Black Adder: Thanks for putting the "serfs" in context, lol. By the way - I know I haven't answered your last OWL - I'm just running behind due to real life and my slow thought processes!

HermioneLuna
March 19th, 2005, 1:54 am
That is really more confusing than anything else. But I think Lupin may be one of the few werewolves in Britain who has ever had a friend. The treatment the group has received has to figure in to the next two books, I would think. I wish some of this information was in the main canon, and we could hear the characters talk about it more.

I'm inclined to agree with you on this. In Order of the Phoenix, we see a man who is a werewolf, yet never has any visitors when Harry, his friends, and the Order are around. If Lupin were to fall ill and be hospitalized, there would be quite the group surrounding him. However, this poor man had no one to keep him company. Granted, we don't know about his life outside of the hospital room, but it still seems rather odd to me that almost everyone else seemed to have visitors either present with them or planning to be with them, while the lonely werewolf was all alone.

I think there are many people who think like Umbridge on the matter. That because werewolves have an affliction, they are somehow less than human, which is utter rubbish.

Even in Prisoner of Azkaban, Ron tells Lupin to stay away from him and calls him a werewolf. Now, Lupin is a werewolf, but in context it was a cry of fear from Ron. The wizarding world is conditioned to think less of werewolves which is clearly seen in that moment. Ron liked Lupin until he discovered his teacher's situation. Eventually, he overcame it, but I think Ron's reaction is typical of many in the wizarding world.

_uh
March 19th, 2005, 2:03 am
I'm inclined to agree with you on this. In Order of the Phoenix, we see a man who is a werewolf, yet never has any visitors when Harry, his friends, and the Order are around. If Lupin were to fall ill and be hospitalized, there would be quite the group surrounding him. However, this poor man had no one to keep him company. Granted, we don't know about his life outside of the hospital room, but it still seems rather odd to me that almost everyone else seemed to have visitors either present with them or planning to be with them, while the lonely werewolf was all alone.

I think there are many people who think like Umbridge on the matter. That because werewolves have an affliction, they are somehow less than human, which is utter rubbish.

Even in Prisoner of Azkaban, Ron tells Lupin to stay away from him and calls him a werewolf. Now, Lupin is a werewolf, but in context it was a cry of fear from Ron. The wizarding world is conditioned to think less of werewolves which is clearly seen in that moment. Ron liked Lupin until he discovered his teacher's situation. Eventually, he overcame it, but I think Ron's reaction is typical of many in the wizarding world.


Not to mention, in OotP when Mr. Weasley told them that the man next to him was bitten by a werewolf, and Mrs. Weasley replies, "Are you sure it's safe to have him in a public ward?", which Mr. Weasley talked some sense into her and said that the full moon wasn't for another couple of weeks. It just seems like people are inclined to be afriad of them.

silver ink pot
March 19th, 2005, 2:10 am
I think when Mrs. Weasley says that about the werewolf, you have to consider that her husband just had his ribs broken by a huge poisonous snake, so she knows he can't fight off a werewolf. Plus, maybe she doesn't want to be married to a werewolf, in case he is bitten.

grrliz
March 19th, 2005, 2:16 am
What I'm trying to say is, from Lupin's or any werewolf's point of view, it really isn't fair that some animagi don't have to register as "Beasts." Especially a pureblood wizard like Sirius Black can have all the advantages of wizarding society, even if he chooses to be a dog all the time, but a registered werewolf can't. There are too many gray areas in magic.Interesting point. I don't think it's unfair that animagi don't have to register as "beasts"; that being said I don't think werewolves should really be classified as beasts either, but that's a matter for the Ministry to decide I suppose. As Hermione points out in PoA (the movie), an animagus elects to transform into an animal, whereas a werewolf has no choice, and I think it has to do with the ability to make the choice that lands one in the Beast category or simply on a registry list.

But given that animagus transformations are based on one's personality, exactly what type of person would one have to be in order to turn into something as deadly as a werewolf?

Even in Prisoner of Azkaban, Ron tells Lupin to stay away from him and calls him a werewolf. Now, Lupin isa werewolf, but in context it was a cry of fear from Ron. The wizarding world is conditioned to think less of werewolves which is clearly seen in that moment. Ron liked Lupin until he discovered his teacher's situation. Eventually, he overcame it, but I think Ron's reaction is typical of many in the wizarding world.:tu: I agree. Ron's reaction shows the complete irrationality regarding the wizarding world's approach to werewolves: Lupin is standing there in human form and yet Ron starts getting twitchy about his lycanthropy. Granted that Lupin of course later does transform, but that doesn't have anything to do with my point that Ron still irrationally fears Lupin when he isn't transformed.

I think when Mrs. Weasley says that about the werewolf, you have to consider that her husband just had his ribs broken by a huge poisonous snake, so she knows he can't fight off a werewolf. Plus, maybe she doesn't want to be married to a werewolf, in case he is bitten.Given that it's two weeks to the full moon, Arthur isn't in any immediate danger of having to fight off a werewolf. Also, they're in St. Mungo's, and I'm pretty sure the healers would be smart enough to give him the Wolfsbane potion when it did come time for the full moon. Arthur is in no danger by having a werewolf in the room.

shaggydogstail
March 19th, 2005, 2:34 am
I think when Mrs. Weasley says that about the werewolf, you have to consider that her husband just had his ribs broken by a huge poisonous snake, so she knows he can't fight off a werewolf. Plus, maybe she doesn't want to be married to a werewolf, in case he is bitten.The irony being, that at this point, she is friends with a werewolf and is quite happy to have her children living under the same roof as him! I think this is an interesting insight into the nature of prejudice. Molly knows that Remus is a werewolf, but he isn't afraid of him becuase she knows him. To Molly, Remus is Remus - a person she knows and gets on well with. Because the man on the hospital ward is a stranger, and because she is so stressed out about Arthur, she seems to forget that the man is a person just like her friend Remus, and just sees him as a Dangerous Werewolf. It is similar to Ron's 'get away from me werewolf' comment - the moment he finds out about Remus' lycanthropy, he forgots that he is his favourite teacher. The revelation dehumanises him in Ron's eyes because initially at least he only sees him as a werewolf.

Once the knowledge has sunk him, Ron remembers that Remus is Professor Lupin and not just some random dangerous beast. Similarly I expect once Molly has cooled down she will be perfectly pleasant to the man on the ward. But their gut reactions give an indication of how difficult life is for werewolves. If decent people like the Weasleys react like that when they find out someone is a werewolf, is it any wonder Remus sought to keep his condition a secret even from his closest friends?
Originally posted by grrliz
I don't think it's unfair that animagi don't have to register as "beasts"; that being said I don't think werewolves should really be classified as beasts either, but that's a matter for the Ministry to decide I suppose. As Hermione points out in PoA (the movie), an animagus elects to transform into an animal, whereas a werewolf has no choice, and I think it has to do with the ability to make the choice that lands one in the Beast category or simply on a registry list. I think SIP raises an interesting point about the inconsistancy of the Ministry's attitude, but there are significant differences between an animagus and a werewolf. As you say an animagus elects to transform and, just as importantly, can elect to transform back whenever they choose. The mental state of an animagus is also worth considering. From Sirius' description of his transformations in Azkaban it is clear that an animagus does not retrain all of their human mental functions whilst in animal form, but they must retain some, not least to allow them to transform back. Padfoot appears to have superior intellectual capacity to a normal dog - a dog couldn't understand a Quidditch match for example. A werewolf loses their human mental capacity completely during transformations, which is what makes them so dangerous (this is how Wolfsbane potion works, but allowing the lycanthropy suffer to retain mental capacity, though they still transform physically). This doesn't happen to animagi, which I think is a crucial difference.

clkginny
March 19th, 2005, 2:46 am
I think that Ron's reaction to Lupin just reinforces JK's message about bias and prejudice. They are completely irrational. I often think Ron ends up being the "real" wizards have X prejudices. The comforting thing is that Ron often quickly gets his head back on straight.

One thing that I felt was a heartrending portrayal of how lonely Lupin must have felt (even with the Marauders), and how compassionate he is, is the scene in St. Mungo's where he talks to the other werewolf.

By the way, guys, thanks for the British History lesson. The closest that I've come to World History is Humanities.

Chievrefueil
March 19th, 2005, 6:47 am
But more likely to me, at least, is that the family no longer lived in England. Perhaps generations of Slytherin's heirs went to Durmstrang or lived in Albania, (or both). . .Tom Riddle may have been the first Slytherin to set foot in Hogwarts since Salazar left.That’s an interesting alternate possibility to shaggy’s idea of Voldemort being Slytherin’s true heir in spirit, as well as in blood. It’s much more likely than Slytherin having no male heirs until Voldemort. However all Death Eaters are from Slytherin.That’s not necessarily true. Peter is a Death Eater and was most likely in Gryffindor, although it’s not confirmed at this point. There might be one in the summer. A private one with the Order, perhaps. I don't think there was time for one before the book ended. Hopefully, a memorial service will help Harry. (Big question for me: Will Snape attend? How will he react to the speeches, that are probably going to praise Sirius? Probably with silence, but what will go on in his head?)I hope there will be one, but I’m not certain there will be one in HBP.

I enjoyed Snape’s obituary for Sirius, shaggy. :p

I wouldn’t think that Snape would attend the memorial service. He wouldn’t need to for himself and he wouldn’t need to for Harry’s sake, would he? I don’t see how it would do any good.

Interesting synopsis of the history of feudalism and slavery, shaggy! :tu: I never knew how slavery came about in the colonies, but not in Britain itself. The contrasts in Lupin are so pronounced as to be obviously deliberate. During his transformations Lupin becomes a terrifying and dangerous beasts, yet JKR has been at pains to depict his human character as an exceptionally kind and gentle man who is haunted by his wolfish alter-ego. Lupin's DADA classes focus on 'Dark Creatures' yet he seems to have some compassion for them, as when he mentions having a nice cupboard which the Boggart will like. Does PoA actually contain the line "You'd know about the madness within, Remus"? I don't have the books at hand (aarrggh); right now, all I'm remembering is the line from the film.
Anyway--It's a common theme in horror literature, that the kind, gentle soul is the werewolf (even Buffy used it!). The idea underlying the concept is pretty interesting--that, unlike normal humans, the werewolf releases all of his aggression, violent tendencies, and other negative traits during the transformation. Therefore, he is wiped clean of such for the remainder of the month, as a human. It refers to the idea that human nature is divided between the spiritual and the animal, rational and irrational, civilized and savage--the legends of the werewolves illustrate the dichotomy of human nature. Hence--the movie line referring to all this..............I think that, often, the most compelling characters are those who have an ongoing inner conflict along these lines.

You guys reminded me of the song “Moon Over Bourbon Street” by Sting. The lyrics are:

There’s a moon over Bourbon Street tonight
I see faces as they pass beneath the pale lamplight
I’ve no choice but to follow that call
The bright lights, the people, and the moon and all
I pray everyday to be strong
For I know what I do must be wrong
Oh you’ll never see my shade or hear the sound of my feet
While there’s a moon over Bourbon Street

It was many years ago that I became what I am
I was trapped in this life like an innocent lamb
Now I can only [sic?] show my face at noon
And you’ll only see me walking by the light of the moon
The brim of my hat hides the eye of a beast
I’ve the face of a sinner but the hands of a priest
Oh you’ll never see my shade or hear the sound of my feet
While there’s a moon over Bourbon Street

She walks everyday through the streets of New Orleans
She’s innocent and young from a family of means
I have stood many times outside her window at night
To struggle with my instinct in the pale moon light
How could I be this way when I pray to God above
I must love what I destroy and destroy the thing I love
Oh you’ll never see my shade or hear the sound of my feet
While there’s a moon over Bourbon Street

When I first heard that song, I thought it was about a werewolf (probably because of the emphasis on the moon). Several years later, I read Anne Rice’s Interview with the Vampire and realized that it was about the vampire from that story, Louis. They made this book into a movie a few years ago (for which, I thought I’d throw in for grrliz’s benefit, Guns N’ Roses covered the Stones’s Sympathy for the Devil--an appropriate song). Louis is a sympathetic character and undergoes incredible internal conflict as part of the story, but this was mostly left out of the movie. He is struggling with his nature—of having become a monster. He spends quite a bit of time soul searching about whether or not God exists because, if God exists, he is a damned creature. He hates himself for what he’s become, but he has no choice other than to be what he is.

Lupin’s character is a dichotomy—a gentle soul who becomes a ferocious beast on a regular basis—but, is Lupin struggling with his nature? Or does he accept it? We don’t get any of Lupin’s inner narrative, but he seems pretty accepting to me. The only part I remember that describes his inner conflict is in PoA when he is describing how he justified to himself that there was no reason to tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an animagus. It’s not an example of him struggling against his werewolf nature, though, and I don’t think Lupin hates what he is.

In contrast, I see Snape’s internal conflict as much more similar to that of the vampire. Even JKR’s comment about Dumbledore not allowing Snape to teach DADA suggests this. Snape must struggle with his attraction to the Dark Arts—his inner beast. Snape must struggle with his bitterness, also—he can’t let it get in the way of the greater cause of the Order, although he failed in this when he refused Harry further Occlumency. (Still, perfectly understandable, IMO.) Does Snape hate what he is?

silver ink pot
March 19th, 2005, 7:24 am
Chiev: Thank you for that song! I'll have to think about a song for Snape, lol. Would it be "King of Pain" or "I'll Be Watching You," lol. :p

This is off-topic, but I have decided to take up the cause of getting the Harry Potter Books back on the New York Times Bestseller List. The more I think about this, the stupider it is that these great books which are read by people of all ages have been pushed onto a "children's list." It just isn't right.

A woman named Mary Ailes, who is a writer for The Plot Thickens, has started a petition you can sign here:

Free Harry! (http://www.plotthickens.com/graphical/freeharry/)

I think Mary is hoping to get Harry and our dear JKR reinstated by the time HBP comes out. (Fingers Crossed!)

And thanks to all the posters who signed this morning after I posted this on another thread! I think it is great to take a stand!

Desraelda
March 19th, 2005, 3:07 pm
Peter is a Death Eater and was most likely in Gryffindor, although it’s not confirmed at this point.
I really don't think Pettrigrew is an actual DE. I think he's just a Voldie supporter. I've always felt that the DE were the inner circle, the privileged ones. The Black family weren't DE, but I can see them contributing to the cause both financially and sending their son to join LV. I see people like Pettigrew being cannon fodder/peasants (in GoF, he was more like an aide-de-camp), with LV as the king, and the DE as the royal dukes and earls, etc.

grrliz
March 19th, 2005, 3:42 pm
That’s an interesting alternate possibility to shaggy’s idea of Voldemort being Slytherin’s true heir in spirit, as well as in blood. It’s much more likely than Slytherin having no male heirs until Voldemort.While I agree that it's not terribly likely that Tom Riddle was Slytherin's first male heir in a millenium, it reminded me of how Ginny is the first female Weasley in quite some time. We don't know how long it's been since there's been a girl born to that particular family (certainly not a thousand years, I hope!) but I thought that parallel was interesting.

I wouldn’t think that Snape would attend the memorial service. He wouldn’t need to for himself and he wouldn’t need to for Harry’s sake, would he? I don’t see how it would do any good.At first I was thinking it might make things worse, given Harry's attitude towards Snape after Sirius' death, but at the same time if Snape did attend Sirius' memorial I think it could be taken as an absolutely huge gesture of goodwill on Snape's part. Snape and Harry need to find common ground at some point and learn to work together rather than against each other, and I think Snape coming to the memorial servce would help in that. It would show that although he disliked Sirius, he still held Sirius at a certain level of respect and also that he is supporting Harry through this tumultuous and confusing time.

That all assumes that Snape doesn't start making disparaging remarks about Sirius, now that he's dead, like he does about James. "How extraordinaryily like your godfather you are, Potter, strutting about the castle..." ;) :p

Several years later, I read Anne Rice’s Interview with the Vampire and realized that it was about the vampire from that story, Louis. They made this book into a movie a few years ago (for which, I thought I’d throw in for grrliz’s benefit, Guns N’ Roses covered the Stones’s Sympathy for the Devil--an appropriate song).Heh, nice! PLus Anne Rice has a huge Gary Oldman fixation, so score more points for my interests! :lol:

Lupin’s character is a dichotomy—a gentle soul who becomes a ferocious beast on a regular basis—but, is Lupin struggling with his nature? Or does he accept it? We don’t get any of Lupin’s inner narrative, but he seems pretty accepting to me. :tu: I think Lupin has definitely accepted his lycanthropy, and deals with it much as one would with any other chronic illness. Because he was bitten as a young child, he's had 30+ years living with the condition, and if he hadn't accepted it by now, he never was going to. What's that saying, accept that which you cannot change? That seems to be Lupin's MO regarding lycanthropy.

In contrast, I see Snape’s internal conflict as much more similar to that of the vampire. Even JKR’s comment about Dumbledore not allowing Snape to teach DADA suggests this. Snape must struggle with his attraction to the Dark Arts—his inner beast. Snape must struggle with his bitterness, also—he can’t let it get in the way of the greater cause of the Order, although he failed in this when he refused Harry further Occlumency. (Still, perfectly understandable, IMO.) Does Snape hate what he is?Hmmm. I've always gotten a vibe of self-loathing from Snape, but now that I'm trying to think up examples I'm falling short. Perhaps it's not that he hates what he is, he just hasn't come to terms with it and hasn't accepted it yet. It seems like it would be tought to accept that you do have an attraction to the Dark Arts; it would seem to be a confirmation to those who believe that you actually are a Dark Wizard (or at best, a big old meanie ;)). Or perhaps his problem is that he did accept his penchant for the Dark Arts, which led him down Voldemort's path, and what Snape is struggling to come to terms with is not the acceptance of his interest in the Dark Arts, but the acceptance of things he might have done because of his interest in the Dark Arts?

I really don't think Pettrigrew is an actual DE. I think he's just a Voldie supporter. I've always felt that the DE were the inner circle, the privileged ones. The Black family weren't DE, but I can see them contributing to the cause both financially and sending their son to join LV. I see people like Pettigrew being cannon fodder/peasants (in GoF, he was more like an aide-de-camp), with LV as the king, and the DE as the royal dukes and earls, etc.Peter is definitely a Death Eater; he has the Dark Mark branded on his arm, and only Voldemort's closest supporters and servants (aka the Death Eaters) have them.

silver ink pot
March 19th, 2005, 4:14 pm
:sad: Quote:
Originally Posted by Desraelda
I really don't think Pettrigrew is an actual DE. I think he's just a Voldie supporter. I've always felt that the DE were the inner circle, the privileged ones. The Black family weren't DE, but I can see them contributing to the cause both financially and sending their son to join LV. I see people like Pettigrew being cannon fodder/peasants (in GoF, he was more like an aide-de-camp), with LV as the king, and the DE as the royal dukes and earls, etc.

Even people's best friends didn't know they were DEs. Sirius must not have ever seen the Dark Mark on Peter's arm, plus they wore masks, so there may be other DEs of whom we have no clues yet.

Here is the passage in GoF that tells of Peter's Dark Mark:

Voldemort bent down a pulled out Wormtail's left arm; he forced the sleeve of Wormtail's robes up past his elbow, and Harry saw something upon the skin there, something like a vivid red tattoo -- a skull with a snake protruding from its mouth -- the image that had appeared in the sky at the Quidditch World Cup: the Dark Mark. Voldemort examined it carefully, ignoring Wormtail's uncontrollable weeping.

"It is back," he said softly, "they will all have noticed it . . . and now, we shall see . . . now we shall know . . . "

He pressed his long white forefinger to the brand on Wormtail's arm.
The scar on Harry's forehead seared with a sharp pain again, and Wormtail let out a fresh howl; Voldemort removed his fingers from Wormtail's mark, and Harry saw that it had turned jet black.

A look of cruel satisfaction on his face, Voldemort straightened up, threw back his head, and stared around at the dark graveyard.

"How many will be brave enough to return when they feel it?" he whispered, his gleaming red eyes fixed upon the stars. "And how many will be foolish enough to stay away?"

Shudder - that is just a hideous scene. :sad: I can't help but notice again the value that Voldemort puts on bravery. To him, there are the brave and the foolish, and it harkens back to the beginning of the book when he goads Peter to "find his courage" or feel his "wrath."

I believe the main reason people continue to think that Peter could not be a DE is that he was in "courageous" Gryffindor. I admit that the first few times I read GoF, I sort of glossed over the Dark Mark scene in my mind, as if it couldn't be happening. But that is a false sense of security. The house a person is in is no indication of what they will do with the "gifts" within them, whether it is courage, like Peter, or "cunning" like Snape.

Desraelda
March 19th, 2005, 4:34 pm
Thanks, SIP. I always appreciate when someone takes the time to make a correction with canon. You're right. That is a hideous scene.

I'm re-reading all five books before HBP comes out, and I'm not up to GoF, yet.

silver ink pot
March 19th, 2005, 4:53 pm
Thanks, SIP. I always appreciate when someone takes the time to make a correction with canon. You're right. That is a hideous scene.

I'm re-reading all five books before HBP comes out, and I'm not up to GoF, yet.

Desraelda: You're welcome! In re-reading that scene, it struck me that I probably was so shocked by all the other things that happened that I didn't even notice the Dark Mark thing going on. What's horrible is how slowly Voldemort goes through that while Peter is lying there half-bleeding to death with his hand cut off, Cedric's dead body is lying there, and Harry is in pain and screaming in his mind for the police to come. It is truly horrible, but that is why I know I missed the idea that Peter was a DE the first time around. I must say, I hate reading that scene again. It is going to be really difficult to watch it in the movie version, too.

subtle science
March 19th, 2005, 5:06 pm
Nasty scene.

Another level of nastiness to it is Voldemort's inversion of "brave" and "foolish." It seems to me to be braver not to answer the call, choosing to leave Voldemort's service, and more foolish to rejoin such a vile organization.

Of course, there's Karkaroff, who doesn't answer because he's too afraid (the coward) of the consquences of having turned in so many fellow DEs, and there's Lucius Malfoy, who answers not because he's foolish, but because he actually enjoys this group....

Chievrefueil
March 19th, 2005, 6:42 pm
Chiev: Thank you for that song! I'll have to think about a song for Snape, lol. Would it be "King of Pain" or "I'll Be Watching You," lol. :p :lol: "I'll Be Watching You" would match Snape's obession in catching rule-breakers--it's essentially a song about a stalker!

I've always really liked "King of Pain." The dichotomous imagery in it is really interesting to me, especially these lines:

. . .There's a butterfly trapped in a spider's web. . .

I have stood here before inside the pouring rain
With the world turning circles running 'round my brain
I guess I'm always hoping that you'll end this reign
But it's my destiny to be the king of pain

. . .There's a king on a throne with his eyes torn out
There's a blind man looking for a shadow of doubt. . .

Actually, when thinking about these songs for the characters, I like "King of Pain" for Lupin and "Moon over Bourbon Street" for Snape. There isn't the same kind of internal struggle in "King of Pain," only acceptance of how things are, some of which is unpleasant: a butterfly being devoured by a spider, a good man transformed into a beast. In "Moon Over Bourbon Street," there is a struggle with instinct: a vampire struggling not to kill a woman he holds in regard, a man struggling to overcome his feelings about the past to fight for the greater good.At first I was thinking it might make things worse, given Harry's attitude towards Snape after Sirius' death, but at the same time if Snape did attend Sirius' memorial I think it could be taken as an absolutely huge gesture of goodwill on Snape's part. Snape and Harry need to find common ground at some point and learn to work together rather than against each other, and I think Snape coming to the memorial servce would help in that. It would show that although he disliked Sirius, he still held Sirius at a certain level of respect and also that he is supporting Harry through this tumultuous and confusing time.I was also thinking along these lines, but decided to pose the question instead. I don't think Harry would appreciate it right away, though. I think it's something Harry would have to really think about before accepting it's significance, given his reaction to Snape at the very end of OotP. In fact, Snape would probably have to be prepared for an outburst from Harry, if he attended such a memorial service--Harry blames him and would likely feel Snape's presence at the service would be disingenuous.That all assumes that Snape doesn't start making disparaging remarks about Sirius, now that he's dead, like he does about James. "How extraordinaryily like your godfather you are, Potter, strutting about the castle..." ;) :p :lol: It definitely would negate any progress Snape might make in attending a memorial service for Sirius! I'm not sure whether or not he could help himself, though. . .we'll have to find out in HBP.Heh, nice! PLus Anne Rice has a huge Gary Oldman fixation, so score more points for my interests! :lol:I didn't even know that! Or perhaps his problem is that he did accept his penchant for the Dark Arts, which led him down Voldemort's path, and what Snape is struggling to come to terms with is not the acceptance of his interest in the Dark Arts, but the acceptance of things he might have done because of his interest in the Dark Arts?Yes, I'm thinking this is really a large part of what Snape is about. This is where the self-loathing comes in, too. As I posted in a response to whizbang earlier, Snape must have switched sides for ideology, not personal gain, since he left when Voldemort was strongest. If so, it follows that Snape would regret his life as a Death Eater. If he is attempting to redeem himself (which I believe he is), he must have some self-loathing for his past and the apsects of himself that led him to that past.Another level of nastiness to it is Voldemort's inversion of "brave" and "foolish." It seems to me to be braver not to answer the call, choosing to leave Voldemort's service, and more foolish to rejoin such a vile organization. Yes, that is an interesting inversion. Tying in to our discussion from the "Dev of Sev," it really has the most to do with motivation. Whether or not the it's more brave to return or not to return depends on the motivation for the decision.

That whole sequence is really shockingly horrific.

Auror Williamson
March 19th, 2005, 7:27 pm
The scene is truly magnificent in its quality, let there be no doubt. The problem lies within just how well Newell will direct the scene true to the book, and just how Fiennes can finesse the part of Voldemort and pull of the sinister qualities of a madman who is willing to hurt his own supporters for his own sake.

Wit that in mind, its only logical that Peter Pettigrew could only be a DE. Let's look at the situation:

1. Dark Mark branded on his arm. Only Voldemort's closest supporters aka Death Eaters are branded (no pun intended) with the mark of alliegance.

2. Pettigrew tipped off the location of the Potters'.

3. He framed his own death to incriminate a friend.

4. He attempted to kill Remus and Sirius at the end of PoA.

5. He returned to Voldemort in GoF instead of fleeing as Karkaroff chose to do.

That seems like some pretty worthy marks of a DE allegiance to me. ....either that or Voldemort's got one heck of a mind spell on him and thus Pettigrew really has no idea what he's doing -- highly doubtful to me.

RemusLupinFan
March 19th, 2005, 8:24 pm
As I posted in a response to whizbang earlier, Snape must have switched sides for ideology, not personal gain, since he left when Voldemort was strongest. If so, it follows that Snape would regret his life as a Death Eater. If he is attempting to redeem himself (which I believe he is), he must have some self-loathing for his past and the apsects of himself that led him to that past.I agree with what you’ve said here. I do believe Snape switched sides because he realized that what he was doing was wrong, even if it might have looked good in the beginning. I’m thinking that Snape’s deciding to leave Voldemort’s service probably came at a time where Voldemort asked him to do something he didn’t want to, such as participate in killing someone or making a certain potion that would have gruesome effects. Obviously, Snape let on to Voldemort about his change of heart (like Regulus Black seemed to have)- he likely covered it up using Occlumency. I’m thinking he may have turned to Dumbledore for help, since he was the leader of the Order and since Dumbledore is the kind of person that radiates trustworthiness. This could have been when Dumbledore arranged things so that Snape would spy on Voldemort as retribution for his actions, and so Snape would have always appeared as a loyal servant to Voldemort on the surface. But in reality, he was loyal to Dumbledore. I see this as the only reason Snape is still alive- because he never let on that he wasn’t completely 100% loyal to Voldemort. Otherwise, I think Snape would have ended up just like Regulus.

Judging from this, I do believe that Snape probably does harbor feelings of self-loathing and regret for being a Death Eater. It makes sense since Snape always follows Dumbledore’s orders and no matter how cruel he may seem on the outside, he has always shown by many of his actions that he will help Harry when he needs it. Snape’s actions strongly suggest that he has a sincere desire to redeem himself and that he truly regrets his past, but I do believe he is coming to terms with what he's done by helping out with the Order and spying on Voldemort. The fact that he has placed himself in a position of great danger to his person says to me that he is willing to do whatever is necessary to show that he wants to be redeemed and that he wants to do what's right.

silver ink pot
March 19th, 2005, 8:36 pm
Auror: I think there is certainly littl doubt that Peter is a DE!

I've always really liked "King of Pain."

That is one of my favorites, because of the natural imagery. It reminds me of the poetry of Ted Hughes, in which nature is not just dormant and in the background, but at war with itself. Sting is a great poet! Although my all-time favorite Sting song is the rockin' "Synchronicity Part 2" with the juxtaposed awful family life/city nightmare and the Loch Ness Monster rising in the water! I'll never forget hearing that song on the radio for the first time and just being stunned by it! :)

http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php;jsessionid=D214EE7AB9AC93A23DD0460B 83975B1B?hid=ZjjriPYbkuc%3D

Were The Police really "Aurors"? :lol:

Mrs. Flamel was writing on the Dev of Sev thread about Malfoy meaning "Bad Faith" and that made me wonder if Snape or Harry might be an example of "Blind Faith." I was thinking of the British rock group of that name, but then I just came across this lyric by Sting, that talks more negatively about blind faith being the sail of our ship as we go through history. So maybe you have balance faith and reason - more the Luna/Hermione dichotomy.

Both of the following songs made me think of Snape being a spy, because they talk of throwing away the past and using up all your lies:

http://www.absolutelyric.com/lyrics/view/sting/history_will_teach_us_nothing/

History Will Teach Us Nothing

If we seek solace in the prisons of the distant past
Security in human systems we're told will always always last
Emotions are the sail and blind faith is the mast
Without a breath of real freedom we're getting nowhere fast

If God is dead and an actor plays his part
His words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart
Without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse
Without freedom from the past things can only get worse

Sooner or later just like the world first day
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away
Sooner or later just like the world first day
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away

History will teach us nothing
History will teach us nothing

Our written history is a catalogue of crime
The sordid and the powerful, the architects of time
The mother of invention, the oppression of the mild
The constant fear of scarcity, aggression as its child

Sooner or later. . .

Convince an enemy, convince him that he's wrong
Is to win a bloodless battle where victory is long
A simple act of faith
In reason over might
To blow up his children will only prove him right
History will teach us nothing

Sooner or later the world first day
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away
Sooner or later the world first day
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away
Sooner or later we learn to throw the past away

History will teach us nothing
History will teach us nothing

Know you human rights
Be what you come here for . . .

Then there is this song, which seems appropriate for the books as well, philosophically:

http://www.absolutelyric.com/lyrics/view/sting/let_your_soul_be_your_pilot/

Let your soul be your pilot

Let your soul guide you
He'll guide you well

When you're down and they're counting
When your secrets all found out
When your troubles take to mounting
When the map you have leads you to doubt
When there's no information
And the compass turns to nowhere that you know well

Let your soul be your pilot
Let your soul guide you
He'll guide you well

When the doctors failed to heal you
When no medicine chest can make you well
When no counsel leads to comfort
When there are no more lies they can tell
No more useless information
And the compass spins
The compass spins between heaven and hell

Let your soul be your pilot
Let your soul guide you
He'll guide you well

And your eyes turn towards the window pane
To the lights upon the hill
The distance seems so strange to you now
And the dark room seems so still

Let your pain be my sorrow
Let your tears be my tears too
Let your courage be my model
That the north you find will be true
When there's no information
And the compass turns to nowhere that you know well

Let your soul be your pilot
Let your soul guide you
Let your soul guide you
Let your soul guide you upon your way...

Wandering Bard
March 19th, 2005, 9:13 pm
While I agree that it's not terribly likely that Tom Riddle was Slytherin's first male heir in a millenium, it reminded me of how Ginny is the first female Weasley in quite some time. We don't know how long it's been since there's been a girl born to that particular family (certainly not a thousand years, I hope!) but I thought that parallel was interesting.

Being the heir of Slytherin isn't just about blood. In order to open the chamber, the heir needed to be a parselmouth. Parselmouths are very rare, according to Hermione (I think), so it's possible that not all of Slytherin's descendents could do it. As well as that, the heir had to embrace the slytherin ideology: they had to want to kill muggles. Voldemort is only the heir of Slytherin because he opened the chamber. Perhaps previous heirs tried, but failed.

shaggydogstail
March 19th, 2005, 9:20 pm
I wouldn’t think that Snape would attend the memorial service. He wouldn’t need to for himself and he wouldn’t need to for Harry’s sake, would he? I don’t see how it would do any good.I agree. Snape never liked Sirius and the feeling was mutual. I think he'd feel like a hypocrit attending, with justification. His presence would only make both Harry and himself feel hideously uncomfortable.

Though I'm having a really odd vision now of meeting of the Order in the kitchen of Grimmauld Place and Dumbledore starting/ending the meeting with a minute's silence for their fallen comrade. Snape is feeling positive waves of of resentment coming off Harry and feeling so awkward he is praying for the ground to open and swallow him up. :elaugh:
Originally posted by Chiev
Lupin’s character is a dichotomy—a gentle soul who becomes a ferocious beast on a regular basis—but, is Lupin struggling with his nature? Or does he accept it? We don’t get any of Lupin’s inner narrative, but he seems pretty accepting to me. Yes, I think he has accepted it. Obviously he doesn't like it, but he has learnt to live with it. I think the reason he has come to accept it so well is partly due to his friendship with James and Sirius (all right, and the rat :evil: ) The way he talks about their reaction in PoA is very moving - it clearly meant a great deal to him. He even talks about being able to enjoy himself during his transformations, and the influence of his friends as animagi helped him to keep his mind and they were able to have adventures together. Both these things - that his friends would stand by him and that he could get something positive out of his transformations - would doubtless have seemed impossible to him before he met the other Marauders. Knowing that his friends still loved him, lycanthropy and all, probably helped Lupin to developed his quietly self-assured nature and gave him hope for a normal life, thus preventing him from becoming bitter.
Originally posted by Chiev
In contrast, I see Snape’s internal conflict as much more similar to that of the vampire. Even JKR’s comment about Dumbledore not allowing Snape to teach DADA suggests this. Snape must struggle with his attraction to the Dark Arts—his inner beast. Snape must struggle with his bitterness, also—he can’t let it get in the way of the greater cause of the Order, although he failed in this when he refused Harry further Occlumency. (Still, perfectly understandable, IMO.) Does Snape hate what he is?I think he does. Whilst Snape is confident about his talents and abilities, I don't think he likes himself as a person. Snape possesses some admirable character traits, such as courage and strength of conviction, but he is neither warm nor likeable and I think he knows this. Snape, to put it mildly, has issues.
Originally Posted by silver ink pot
Chiev: Thank you for that song! I'll have to think about a song for Snape, lol. Would it be "King of Pain" or "I'll Be Watching You," lol. Oddly enough I was listening to 'I'll Be Watching You' for the first time in ages the other day, and I'd forgotten just how sinister it is - it's a great song but it really creeps me out! :scared:

I always think of Snape when I hear 'Can't Stand Me Now' by The Libertines, though only some of the lyrics are applicable;

An ending fitting for the start
You twisted and tore our love apart
Your light fingers through the dark
Shattered the lamp into darkness, they cast us all
No, you've got it the wrong way round
You shut me up, and blamed it on the *****
Cornered the boy, kicked out at the world
The world kicked back a lot ****ing harder now
[...]
No, you can't stand me now, you can't stand me now
No, you can't stand me now, you can't stand me now
No, you can't stand me now, you can't stand me now
No, you can't stand me now, you can't stand me now

Censored for non-family friendly content. ;) Unusually the song is a male/male duet (Pete Doherty and Carl Barat), which leads me to picture it as a Snape and Sirius number (or for that matter Snape and Harry, Snape and James). But Sirius offers a better companion for Snape's mental imbalances! Well who else can match Snape for issues? :p
Originally posted by SIP
Shudder - that is just a hideous scene. I can't help but notice again the value that Voldemort puts on bravery. To him, there are the brave and the foolish, and it harkens back to the beginning of the book when he goads Peter to "find his courage" or feel his "wrath." Yes, it is truly chilling, but far the most frightening part of any of the books for me. The bit with Voldemort wondering how many will be 'brave enough to return', as well as telling Peter to 'find his courage' remind me of Sirius' comment about Voldemort being the 'biggest bully on the playground'. A common tactic for bullies is to attempt to coerce their victims into inappropriate behaviour, such as drug-taking, underage sex, vandalism, shoplifting and so on. They will goad their victims for being too 'chicken' if they don't want to do it, but the bravest (and hardest) thing to do is to turn away from the bullies themselves! As subtle says, the bravest thing for the DEs to do might be to ignore the call.
Originally posted by grrliz
That all assumes that Snape doesn't start making disparaging remarks about Sirius, now that he's dead, like he does about James. "How extraordinaryily like your godfather you are, Potter, strutting about the castle..." Yes, that would clearly be wrong and bad. Will Snape be able to stop himself coming out with snarky remarks about Sirius and making Harry see him as more of a git than ever? One would hope so, but I sometimes think he has a bit of a compulsion when it comes to dissing James - he must know it is inappropriate, but these nasty comments just keep popping out...

Auror Williamson
March 19th, 2005, 9:44 pm
Would it be wise to say that the Sorting Hat would have potentially had a tough time sorting dear Voldemort between Slytherin and Gryffindor? We've seen in GoF his incessant references to Bravery and we see how much he values it (albeit for the wrong reasons) and thus is it conceivable that the Sorting Hat would be willing to put in a brave student -- even though the brave student upholds that value for its misuse?

grrliz
March 19th, 2005, 9:53 pm
Would it be wise to say that the Sorting Hat would have potentially had a tough time sorting dear Voldemort between Slytherin and Gryffindor? We've seen in GoF his incessant references to Bravery and we see how much he values it (albeit for the wrong reasons) and thus is it conceivable that the Sorting Hat would be willing to put in a brave student -- even though the brave student upholds that value for its misuse?
Funny you should bring that up ... Did the Sorting Hat suggest putting Tom Riddle in Gyffindor? ;)

silver ink pot
March 19th, 2005, 10:45 pm
Though I'm having a really odd vision now of meeting of the Order in the kitchen of Grimmauld Place and Dumbledore starting/ending the meeting with a minute's silence for their fallen comrade. Snape is feeling positive waves of of resentment coming off Harry and feeling so awkward he is praying for the ground to open and swallow him up

Snape is praying? :evil: Well, then . . . that's ok, isn't is? :angel:

I think Snape, when he is finally confronted by "Angry Young Man Harry" will probably say that Sirius wouldn't listen to anyone and kept leaving the house, and Harry will hear that little voice in his head (that sounds like Hermione) telling him that Snape is right and that Sirius didn't have to die, and besides that, Kreacher and the Malfoys are just as much to blame as anyone, not to mention Bella and Voldemort.

HermioneLuna
March 19th, 2005, 11:20 pm
One would hope so, but I sometimes think he has a bit of a compulsion when it comes to dissing James - he must know it is inappropriate, but these nasty comments just keep popping out...

I think that, in Snape's mind, he's able to get back at James by insulting him to Harry. During school, I doubt Snape had much opportunity to verbally confront the Marauders. All their fights were most likely similar to what happened in Snape's Worst Memory, though not likely to be that extreme.

If Snape had insulted any of the Marauders, it might have escalated, unlike in the case of Harry and Draco where it's almost always solely verbal fighting. Therefore, to Snape, he's able to finally call James arrogant and so forth. I think he gets some satisfaction out of it because Harry and James look so much alike that, to Snape, it's as good as saying it to James.

Also, there's the fact that Snape is able to degrade James without any verbal assault coming back on him because Harry has yet to call Snape anything truly insulting to his face. In this situation, Snape has the power.

Add to that the fact that Snape can badmouth James to his own son, and I think he doesn't care if it's inappropriate. It's just something he feels the need to do.

grrliz
March 19th, 2005, 11:34 pm
I think Snape, when he is finally confronted by "Angry Young Man Harry" will probably say that Sirius wouldn't listen to anyone and kept leaving the house, and Harry will hear that little voice in his head (that sounds like Hermione) telling him that Snape is right and that Sirius didn't have to die, and besides that, Kreacher and the Malfoys are just as much to blame as anyone, not to mention Bella and Voldemort.Hehehe, Angry Young Man Harry :lol:. Anyway, I think if Snape does say something of that nature to Harry (which I think would be incredibly crass beyond all belief) I don't think he'll necessarily believe him because Snape isn't exactly right. Sirius left the house three times during OotP, and when taking into consideration the vast amount of time he spent there, I'd say percentage-wise and proportionally that Sirius spent a good deal of his time obeying orders and staying home. Three days out of nearly a year isn't so bad and I think it hardly builds a case for arguing that Sirius just wouldn't litsen to anyone.

shaggydogstail
March 20th, 2005, 12:04 am
Hehehe, Angry Young Man Harry :lol:. Anyway, I think if Snape does say something of that nature to Harry (which I think would be incredibly crass beyond all belief) I don't think he'll necessarily believe him because Snape isn't exactly right. Sirius left the house three times during OotP, and when taking into consideration the vast amount of time he spent there, I'd say percentage-wise and proportionally that Sirius spent a good deal of his time obeying orders and staying home. Three days out of nearly a year isn't so bad and I think it hardly builds a case for arguing that Sirius just wouldn't litsen to anyone.I agree. Apportioning any blame to Sirius for his own death because he left the house would be the absolute worst thing Snape could do! Apart from anything else, there is the question of why Sirius left the house - it was to come to Harry's aid - how could Harry ever blame him for that?

The best thing Snape could do in that situation would be to say that he did all he could to get help that night, and he didn't want Sirius to put himself in danger. He could admit that he didn't like Sirius and remind Harry that despite this, as they are both member of the Order he didn't want Sirius to die, that he tried to prevent it, and that he is sorry that it happened. That approach might go some way to diffusing Harry's anger, whereas criticising Sirius for trying to save Harry's life would simply inflame it.

BTW Liz, I only remember Sirius leaving the house twice, once to accompany Harry to King's Cross and once to go to the DoM - unless you are counting using the Floo network to talk to Harry in the fire. Have I forgotten one?

grrliz
March 20th, 2005, 12:14 am
Yeah, I'm counting the Floo network one, although I suppose technically only his head left the house. :lol:

asrivathsan
March 20th, 2005, 5:17 am
LOL :D

All the songs are great! Could anyone help me, please? I wanted to know how and where one can submit his or her poetry.

Chievrefueil
March 20th, 2005, 6:44 am
Snape possesses some admirable character traits, such as courage and strength of conviction, but he is neither warm nor likeable and I think he knows this.I’m not sure Snape cares about this, though, and I think it’s a bit different from self-loathing. It’s why other people don’t like Snape, but I would think Snape’s self-loathing is internal, from how he feels about the deficiencies within himself, not external, from how he feels about others’ view of him. I think that, in Snape's mind, he's able to get back at James by insulting him to Harry. During school, I doubt Snape had much opportunity to verbally confront the Marauders. All their fights were most likely similar to what happened in Snape's Worst Memory, though not likely to be that extreme.I don’t think it’s as simple as this. If this was the reason, why would Snape have waited 2 ½ years before making his comments about James? Recently, I’ve been thinking that Snape’s intention is to insult Harry, not James. Snape doesn’t think much of James, so, from his point of view, comparing Harry to him is not flattering to Harry. Of course, since Harry doesn't share Snape's point of view, he doesn't interpret it this way. The best thing Snape could do in that situation would be to say that he did all he could to get help that night, and he didn't want Sirius to put himself in danger. He could admit that he didn't like Sirius and remind Harry that despite this, as they are both member of the Order he didn't want Sirius to die, that he tried to prevent it, and that he is sorry that it happened.I think this would be completely out of character for Snape. I would expect Snape to remain silent before he explained himself to Harry.

There may be a shift in their relationship, though. After reading OotP, I looked hard to see if there was any sign of Snape treating Harry differently because of Occlumency lessons or because of Sirius’s death. I didn’t find anything, but now I’m wondering about the lack of something. In the last interaction between them, Harry tells Snape he is deciding what curse to use on Malfoy and Snape responds by deducting points from Gryffindor. However, isn’t that a change in character for Snape? Wasn’t that a prime opportunity for Snape to note how arrogant and like his father (or like Sirius) Harry is? And, he doesn’t do it. . .perhaps it is some progress?

skyph
March 20th, 2005, 9:15 am
CLKGinny: The Feudal System lived on in England with servants who served "Lords" and other wealthy people "on the land." I'm not sure I understand all the implications of people who sort of "belonged" to great estates, but it really was similar to slavery. Yes, they got paid wages - extremely small wages - certainly not enough to go anywhere else and start over. If you were thrown out, then you either have to find another job "without references" (almost impossible) or you had to leave your home and go to London, or if you were too old to work, you had to go to the poorhouse and die there of disease or malnutrition.

SIP, I agree serfs under feudalism are rather similar to slaves (except for the right to leave), as compared to modern servants known today.


Interesting that the word Marauders only comes up when a historian is writing about Viking invasions or Atilla the Hun! :evil:

I think marauders are also similar to outlaws/pirates, constantly roaming and raiding. For the boys in Potterverse, I believe when they termed themselves Marauders, they meant the wandering part of marauding. Remus recalled they roamed the grounds of Hogwarts and Hogsmeade where others never venture, and subsequently created the Marauder's Map. Of course, they might have "raided the kitchen" when they approached the house-elves for some good food, like Fred and George.

I'm inclined to agree with you on this. In Order of the Phoenix, we see a man who is a werewolf, yet never has any visitors when Harry, his friends, and the Order are around. If Lupin were to fall ill and be hospitalized, there would be quite the group surrounding him. However, this poor man had no one to keep him company. Granted, we don't know about his life outside of the hospital room, but it still seems rather odd to me that almost everyone else seemed to have visitors either present with them or planning to be with them, while the lonely werewolf was all alone.

I think there are many people who think like Umbridge on the matter. That because werewolves have an affliction, they are somehow less than human, which is utter rubbish.

Agree, and I'd like to hear Remus's protests against the werewolf legislation.


It would show that although he disliked Sirius, he still held Sirius at a certain level of respect and also that he is supporting Harry through this tumultuous and confusing time.

That all assumes that Snape doesn't start making disparaging remarks about Sirius, now that he's dead, like he does about James. "How extraordinaryily like your godfather you are, Potter, strutting about the castle..." ;) :p

:lol: Anyway, I doubt he'll turn up if there's a memorial, but if he does, I hope he'll refrain from his "snaps of Snape" for the sake of the future of the Order.

Another level of nastiness to it is Voldemort's inversion of "brave" and "foolish." It seems to me to be braver not to answer the call, choosing to leave Voldemort's service, and more foolish to rejoin such a vile organization.

From Voldemort's POV, it's "brave" and "foolish", the old POV thing.

Would it be wise to say that the Sorting Hat would have potentially had a tough time sorting dear Voldemort between Slytherin and Gryffindor? We've seen in GoF his incessant references to Bravery and we see how much he values it (albeit for the wrong reasons) and thus is it conceivable that the Sorting Hat would be willing to put in a brave student -- even though the brave student upholds that value for its misuse?
Welcome,
Auror Williamson !

My opinion is Tom would still be sorted into Slytherin because he's more ambitious and cunning than brave. I think he's also very afraid of death although I'm not sure this fear comes in at which point, before or after he gained power. Usually, tyrants fear death after they obtained great power, wealth and didn't want to lose them be it through their enemies or death.

:lol: "I'll Be Watching You" would match Snape's obession in catching rule-breakers--it's essentially a song about a stalker!

Imagining a s-talking Snape, "Run Harry run ! ". :p


As I posted in a response to whizbang earlier, Snape must have switched sides for ideology, not personal gain, since he left when Voldemort was strongest.

We don't really know the real reasons why Snape left and whether he divulged all his reasons to Dumbledore. While I tend to believe a reason Snape left was because he couldn't commit the evil deeds Voldemort planned for his Deatheaters and when he realized the extent Voldemort would go to (similar to the Blacks' opinions), I'm not sure whether Snape forsake other ideologies such as pureblood issues and the use of Dark Arts that the DEs believe in.


Yes, I think he has accepted it. Obviously he doesn't like it, but he has learnt to live with it. I think the reason he has come to accept it so well is partly due to his friendship with James and Sirius (all right, and the rat :evil: ) The way he talks about their reaction in PoA is very moving - it clearly meant a great deal to him. He even talks about being able to enjoy himself during his transformations, and the influence of his friends as animagi helped him to keep his mind and they were able to have adventures together. Both these things - that his friends would stand by him and that he could get something positive out of his transformations - would doubtless have seemed impossible to him before he met the other Marauders. Knowing that his friends still loved him, lycanthropy and all, probably helped Lupin to developed his quietly self-assured nature and gave him hope for a normal life, thus preventing him from becoming bitter.

:tu: I think their friendship helped Remus a lot in his life, giving him the strength he needed as they did not abandon him after discovering he's a werewolf and it must have been even more painful to lose the last Marauder of his true friends in OOTP.


But Sirius offers a better companion for Snape's mental imbalances! Well who else can match Snape for issues? :p

Sirius has issues ? Seriously, you must be kidding... :p


I think Snape, when he is finally confronted by "Angry Young Man Harry" will probably say that Sirius wouldn't listen to anyone and kept leaving the house

Given Snape's persistent tauntings about Sirius "hiding in his mother's house", I tend to believe either he lied to Dumbledore about telling Sirius to stay when he contacted Sirius or it goes along the lines of

"Hey Angry Old-man Gary erm.. Black, your stupid godson without the brains for Occlumency has been tricked by my Lord erm.. the Dark Lord. He believed you're captured and brought a gang of rebelling misfits to save you. How extraordinarily like you your godson is, now he'll die the way his father died, all BECAUSE of YOU. Tell the werewolf and the others to go to MoM and save that arrogant brat. Since you can do nothing useful, don't leave your hidey-hole; you can brief Dumbledore later. At least, this time you can feel somewhat involved." *Snape sneered*

All the songs are great! Could anyone help me, please? I wanted to know how and where one can submit his or her poetry.
asrivathsan, is it related to the Harry Potter books ? Perhaps, you can OWL an admin/mod to ask them.

After reading OotP, I looked hard to see if there was any sign of Snape treating Harry differently because of Occlumency lessons or because of Sirius’s death. I didn’t find anything, but now I’m wondering about the lack of something. In the last interaction between them, Harry tells Snape he is deciding what curse to use on Malfoy and Snape responds by deducting points from Gryffindor. However, isn’t that a change in character for Snape? Wasn’t that a prime opportunity for Snape to note how arrogant and like his father (or like Sirius) Harry is? And, he doesn’t do it. . .perhaps it is some progress?
Snape has been cold towards Harry after the Pensieve dive, avoiding any extra words so I'm not sure it's "a change in character"; he has already "changed" his way of dealing with Harry since the dive.

Wandering Bard
March 20th, 2005, 1:35 pm
All the songs are great! Could anyone help me, please? I wanted to know how and where one can submit his or her poetry.

Well, there's the Flourish and Blotts poetry corner (http://www.cosforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=124)

Or, if it's not HP related, try The Poetry Writing Thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=1977182&highlight=poetry#post1977182)

We don't really know the real reasons why Snape left and whether he divulged all his reasons to Dumbledore. While I tend to believe a reason Snape left was because he couldn't commit the evil deeds Voldemort planned for his Deatheaters and when he realized the extent Voldemort would go to (similar to the Blacks' opinions), I'm not sure whether Snape forsake other ideologies such as pureblood issues and the use of Dark Arts that the DEs believe in.

Snape is still prejudiced against werewolves,

POA p263 UK Ed.

'Two more for Azkaban tonight,' said Snape, his eyes now gleaming fanatically. 'I shall be interested to see how Dumbledore takes this ... he was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin ... a tame werewolf ...'

Snape practically states that there are no good werewolves, in his opinion (anyone read it differently?). Of course, Ron has the same initial reaction,

POA p 253
'Get away from me, werewolf!'

I don't think he is prejudiced against muggleborns. He treats Hermione badly, but not because of her blood. Snape treats everyone as badly as each other; everyone, except for the Slytherins, but that is just his house bias coming out, I think.

Jaguarundi
March 20th, 2005, 7:32 pm
Quote from skyph:
My opinion is Tom would still be sorted into Slytherin because he's more ambitious and cunning than brave. I think he's also very afraid of death although I'm not sure this fear comes in at which point, before or after he gained power. Usually, tyrants fear death after they obtained great power, wealth and didn't want to lose them be it through their enemies or death.

Nearly Headless Nick was in Gryffindor but he still feared death. The only difference between Voldeomrt and Nick was Voldemort did something about it. :evil:

Quote from Chievrefueil
Yes, I'm thinking this is really a large part of what Snape is about. This is where the self-loathing comes in, too. As I posted in a response to whizbang earlier, Snape must have switched sides for ideology, not personal gain, since he left when Voldemort was strongest. If so, it follows that Snape would regret his life as a Death Eater. If he is attempting to redeem himself (which I believe he is), he must have some self-loathing for his past and the apsects of himself that led him to that past.

I've been thinking about Snape and ideology and something about this troubles me. I don't really see Snape as ever having been a big pure-blood fanatic. Snape seems more like Voldemort in a way, being a "pure-blood" supporter is more of a means to an end then anything else. I have a theory that Snape was drawn to the Death Eaters because of his interest in the Dark Arts more then anything else (perhaps the reason he's not allowed to teach them?).

RemusLupinFan
March 20th, 2005, 7:51 pm
I think that, in Snape's mind, he's able to get back at James by insulting him to Harry. During school, I doubt Snape had much opportunity to verbally confront the Marauders. All their fights were most likely similar to what happened in Snape's Worst Memory, though not likely to be that extreme.I don’t think it’s as simple as this. If this was the reason, why would Snape have waited 2 ½ years before making his comments about James? Recently, I’ve been thinking that Snape’s intention is to insult Harry, not James. Snape doesn’t think much of James, so, from his point of view, comparing Harry to him is not flattering to Harry. Of course, since Harry doesn't share Snape's point of view, he doesn't interpret it this way.To a point, it seems like Snape is indeed trying to get back at James by insulting Harry. But I don’t think that was his sole intention. It seems to me that Snape is trying to extend James’ behavior onto Harry- saying that Harry is just as arrogant as his father, saying that he struts around the castle like James did, saying that he gets away with so many things just like James did. I think from the moment Snape laid eyes on James, he was determined not to like him. I also think this was especially easy for Snape given that Harry looks so much like James. As time went on, Snape most likely began to insult Harry not specifically to get back at James, but because he had grown to dislike Harry for Harry, and not dislike Harry for James.

If Snape had insulted any of the Marauders, it might have escalated, unlike in the case of Harry and Draco where it's almost always solely verbal fighting. Therefore, to Snape, he's able to finally call James arrogant and so forth. I think he gets some satisfaction out of it because Harry and James look so much alike that, to Snape, it's as good as saying it to James.

Also, there's the fact that Snape is able to degrade James without any verbal assault coming back on him because Harry has yet to call Snape anything truly insulting to his face. In this situation, Snape has the power.To a degree, I think you’re right, especially in the beginning of the series. At this point, Snape could have ignored that Harry was James’ son and dealt with Harry as any other Gryffindor. But the fact that he singles Harry out right from the get-go as someone he dislikes (or even loathes, as Harry remarks that Snape is wearing his “loathing face”, the expression he reserves specially for Harry) indicates that he is seeing James in Harry, rather than just seeing another ordinary Gryffindor boy. It’s also possible that Harry’s status as the Boy Who Lived might have made Snape single him out for disliking- not because he caused Voldemort’s downfall, but because of the way people put Harry on a pedestal for his defeat of Voldemort.

There may be a shift in their relationship, though. After reading OotP, I looked hard to see if there was any sign of Snape treating Harry differently because of Occlumency lessons or because of Sirius’s death. I didn’t find anything, but now I’m wondering about the lack of something. In the last interaction between them, Harry tells Snape he is deciding what curse to use on Malfoy and Snape responds by deducting points from Gryffindor. However, isn’t that a change in character for Snape? Wasn’t that a prime opportunity for Snape to note how arrogant and like his father (or like Sirius) Harry is? And, he doesn’t do it. . .perhaps it is some progress?:tu: This is a very interesting point- the fact that Snape doesn’t appear to act any differently toward Harry after getting so enraged at him for breaking into his Pensieve is a bit puzzling. I wonder if maybe Snape realizes that acting even more cruelly toward Harry might spark an ugly confrontation where both of them do things they might regret. Perhaps Snape doesn't want to dwell on what happened- perhaps he'd rather forget what Harry saw.

Snape is still prejudiced against werewolves,Absolutely, and in addition to your quotes, there are also these: "Come on, all of you," he said. He clicked his fingers, and the ends of the cords that bound Lupin flew to his hands. "I'll drag the werewolf. Perhaps the dementors will have a kiss for him too --" "Don't ask me to fathom the way a werewolf's mind works," hissed Snape.From these quotes, it seems that Snape was thinking of Lupin's mind as being different from that of a human, and it seems he was ready to drag him out of the Shrieking Shack. I think in this situation, Snape's dislike for werewolves was likely enhanced, especially due to the fact that Lupin was on Sirius' side in these matters.

grrliz
March 20th, 2005, 8:05 pm
From these quotes, it seems that Snape was thinking of Lupin's mind as being different from that of a human, and it seems he was ready to drag him out of the Shrieking Shack. I think in this situation, Snape's dislike for werewolves was likely enhanced, especially due to the fact that Lupin was on Sirius' side in these matters.And further emphasized by the fact that Lupin was right: Sirius wasn't a mass murderer nor betrayer of the Potters.

It's funny that you mention that Snape seems to be thinking that Lupin's mind is different from that of a human's. I was reading a really horrendous fanfic yesterday (thus I secretly enjoyed it ;)) and nearly fell out of my chair when I read this line:"You have never mocked werewolves," stated Remus.

"Yes I have; think about all of the times I've used the word "people." Doesn't that offend you since a werewolf technically is not a person?" she asked:rolleyes: The better part is this character was supposed to be Remus' girlfriend; it's nice when the one you love decides to dehumanize you like that. {She also decides that she's going to become an animagus to help him out with his trasnformations, but she's not going to tell him so that it will be a surprise! ;)}

Jaguarundi
March 21st, 2005, 12:01 am
I have to say that I've never understood the bias against werewolves in the wizarding world. Maybe we're not being told something about them? It doesn't seem to change their mental/physical abilities in any regards and when they are a wolf they don't have any control. So why the bias?

Wandering Bard
March 21st, 2005, 12:13 am
I have to say that I've never understood the bias against werewolves in the wizarding world. Maybe we're not being told something about them? It doesn't seem to change their mental/physical abilities in any regards and when they are a wolf they don't have any control. So why the bias?

Fear and ignorance, probably. Werewolves seem to be quite rare, so not many people would know one personally. If there is no personal involvement, then it would be very easy to focus on werewolves as dangerous creatures, rather than as people with an illness. the very fact that werewolves still exist, is evidence that they can not be trusted to keep themselves from being a threat to others: if they could; then there wouldn't be any left. I'm sure that the Ministry felt that it was necessary to take action, in order to stop the transmission of the disease. Security over liberty: lockthem all up and guarantee wiping it out for all time.

Jaguarundi
March 21st, 2005, 12:28 am
Quote from Wandering Bard
Fear and ignorance, probably. Werewolves seem to be quite rare, so not many people would know one personally. If there is no personal involvement, then it would be very easy to focus on werewolves as dangerous creatures, rather than as people with an illness. the very fact that werewolves still exist, is evidence that they can not be trusted to keep themselves from being a threat to others: if they could; then there wouldn't be any left. I'm sure that the Ministry felt that it was necessary to take action, in order to stop the transmission of the disease. Security over liberty: lockthem all up and guarantee wiping it out for all time.

I'm sure that's what the ministry has been saying that for the past 400 years too :evil: . It just seems "odd" that Umbridge should put in place laws against them when the wizarding world is making major steps to controlling the problem (ie. Wolfsbane potion). So why take away their ability to hold down a job? It seems a strange bias in part because if most wizards don't know them why not have biases against Muggle-borns, who make up 25% of the population, or Goblins. Yet wizards are cautious with these groups. Are the werewolves just a paper tiger that the Ministry can claim to be going something about so it doesn't have to face the real problems (ie. the worsening relationship with Goblins and Centaurs).

kingwidgit
March 21st, 2005, 12:45 am
I'm sure that's what the ministry has been saying that for the past 400 years too :evil: . It just seems "odd" that Umbridge should put in place laws against them when the wizarding world is making major steps to controlling the problem (ie. Wolfsbane potion). So why take away their ability to hold down a job? It seems a strange bias in part because if most wizards don't know them why not have biases against Muggle-borns, who make up 25% of the population, or Goblins. Yet wizards are cautious with these groups. Are the werewolves just a paper tiger that the Ministry can claim to be going something about so it doesn't have to face the real problems (ie. the worsening relationship with Goblins and Centaurs).Well, Umbridge is a law unto herself...
She wanted to round up and tag merpeople--for what purpose?--where would they go?
She drafted a nasty bit of anti-werewolf legislation which makes it virtually impossible for any werewolf--not just Remus--to obtain work.
Look at how she treated Hagrid, and the centaurs.
She loathes part-humans of anykind and I have to say, I pretty much loathed her character, the toad!

FirefightingMuggle
March 21st, 2005, 2:12 am
I'm not entirely convinced that Snape hates werewolves....but I am convinced that Snape hates Marauders. I think that some of the comments that Snape made about Lupin being a werewolf were less about him being a werewolf and more about him being a Marauder. He's hiding one hatred by feigning another.

kingwidgit
March 21st, 2005, 2:19 am
I don't think Snape hates werewolves, in general. I think he, like most of the wizarding world, fears werewolves...including Remus to some degree...when Remus is in his altered state. He definately hated James & Sirius, and Remus, because he was part of their clique. Probably hated Wormtail as well...we'll just have to wait & see.

Chievrefueil
March 21st, 2005, 3:30 am
I've been thinking about Snape and ideology and something about this troubles me. I don't really see Snape as ever having been a big pure-blood fanatic. Snape seems more like Voldemort in a way, being a "pure-blood" supporter is more of a means to an end then anything else. I have a theory that Snape was drawn to the Death Eaters because of his interest in the Dark Arts more then anything else (perhaps the reason he's not allowed to teach them?).My guess would be that this is true; however, if all Snape cared about was practicing the Dark Arts, why would he have left Voldemort at the height of Voldemort’s power? I just don’t see Snape turning if he didn’t believe what Voldemort was doing was wrong—there would be no reason to leave if he was impartial to or supported Voldemort’s agenda. Assuming that’s true and knowing that Snape initially joined the Death Eaters, either he didn’t know what Voldemort was about in the beginning (as Sirius described Regulus) or he had a change of heart. It’s hard to believe that Snape didn’t know what Voldemort was about, given his branding with the Dark Mark. That leaves me with thinking that something changed his mind. To a point, it seems like Snape is indeed trying to get back at James by insulting Harry. But I don’t think that was his sole intention. It seems to me that Snape is trying to extend James’ behavior onto Harry- saying that Harry is just as arrogant as his father, saying that he struts around the castle like James did, saying that he gets away with so many things just like James did. I think from the moment Snape laid eyes on James, he was determined not to like him. I also think this was especially easy for Snape given that Harry looks so much like James. As time went on, Snape most likely began to insult Harry not specifically to get back at James, but because he had grown to dislike Harry for Harry, and not dislike Harry for James.Actually, I would carry it a bit further. Snape begins insulting Harry by comparing him to James in PoA—after he is convinced of Harry’s arrogance—after he has learned to dislike Harry for himself, rather than for being James’s son. Snape hates James and thinks very poorly of him. So, in Snape’s view, it may be a significant insult against Harry for Snape to compare Harry to James—to compare Harry to an undesirable person (in Snape’s opinion). :tu: This is a very interesting point- the fact that Snape doesn’t appear to act any differently toward Harry after getting so enraged at him for breaking into his Pensieve is a bit puzzling. I wonder if maybe Snape realizes that acting even more cruelly toward Harry might spark an ugly confrontation where both of them do things they might regret. Perhaps Snape doesn't want to dwell on what happened- perhaps he'd rather forget what Harry saw.This was discussed briefly before. It’s my pet theory that Snape was so upset by Harry having seen SWM in the Pensieve, demonstrated by his loss of control at the time, that he avoids interaction with Harry because he’s afraid that he will not be able to control himself.:rolleyes: The better part is this character was supposed to be Remus' girlfriend; it's nice when the one you love decides to dehumanize you like that.:lol: What was the context? Was the story supposed to demonstrate her as having dehumanized Lupin or was that a function of the. . .er. . .writing style? ;) I'm not entirely convinced that Snape hates werewolves....but I am convinced that Snape hates Marauders. I think that some of the comments that Snape made about Lupin being a werewolf were less about him being a werewolf and more about him being a Marauder. He's hiding one hatred by feigning another.I tend to think this also; although he is using the term “werewolf” as an insult of sorts—similar to the way he compares Harry to James, actually. It may also be a “psychological” attack—if Snape believes that reminding Lupin that he is a werewolf is particularly cutting—perhaps reminding Lupin of his isolation in society? I don't think Snape hates werewolves, in general. I think he, like most of the wizarding world, fears werewolves...including Remus to some degree...when Remus is in his altered state.As he should. Werewolves are so dangerous because they have no sense of themselves while they are transformed. Lupin has no sense of (human) friend or foe, right or wrong, when he is transformed. The wolfsbane potion can control it, but mistakes or accidents happen—as conscientious as Lupin is, even he has forgotten to take it. . .

Jaguarundi
March 21st, 2005, 3:54 am
Quote from Chievrefueil:
My guess would be that this is true; however, if all Snape cared about was practicing the Dark Arts, why would he have left Voldemort at the height of Voldemort’s power? I just don’t see Snape turning if he didn’t believe what Voldemort was doing was wrong—there would be no reason to leave if he was impartial to or supported Voldemort’s agenda. Assuming that’s true and knowing that Snape initially joined the Death Eaters, either he didn’t know what Voldemort was about in the beginning (as Sirius described Regulus) or he had a change of heart. It’s hard to believe that Snape didn’t know what Voldemort was about, given his branding with the Dark Mark. That leaves me with thinking that something changed his mind.

See I agree with this too...I just have a problem with "pure-blood fanatic" Snape!. Snape doesn't seem to be the a pure-blood fan...he hates people equally :evil: . Sirius, in GoF, could easily have gotten off a huge blow at Snape to Ron and Harry by saying that Snape had always believed pure-bloods are to better but he doesn't. Also I remembered (after the big discussion on the Death Eaters in this thread) that the Death Eaters were originally called the Knights of Walpurgis before Voldemort took control of them. Maybe Snape felt that they were the best way to learn the Dark Arts even under Voldemort (he's crazy but he's also a Dark Arts master).

grrliz
March 21st, 2005, 4:04 am
My guess would be that this is true; however, if all Snape cared about was practicing the Dark Arts, why would he have left Voldemort at the height of Voldemort’s power?Perhaps he thought he'd be able to continue practicing them in one form or another; after all, he did ask for the DADA slot when offered a teaching position at Hogwarts. :eyebrows:

:lol: What was the context? Was the story supposed to demonstrate her as having dehumanized Lupin or was that a function of the. . .er. . .writing style? ;)Honestly, it didn't make much sense even within the context! :lol:

Werewolves are so dangerous because they have no sense of themselves while they are transformed. Lupin has no sense of (human) friend or foe, right or wrong, when he is transformed. The wolfsbane potion can control it, but mistakes or accidents happen—as conscientious as Lupin is, even he has forgotten to take it. . .But again, the problem lies in that Snape (or Umbridge or others) is evidently unable to distinguish between Lupin as a normal, regular human being, and Lupin as the werewolf he is thirteen nights of the year. He's been suspicious all this time, except for the vast majority of that time Lupin has been in his human form, and when he is in his werewolf form he's been rendered tame by the Wolfsbane Potion. Understandably mistakes and accidents can and will happen, but it seems like there's nothing a lycanthrope can do right in order for people to stop being supsicious. There always seems to be a "what if" attached to any good they do. Lupin takes his Wolfsbane regularly ... but what if he doesn't? Snape approaches Lupin with the assumption that if he waits long enough Lupin will trip up and confirm everything he may have ever thought negatively about werewolves, and lo and behold that very thing happens. :sigh:

silver ink pot
March 21st, 2005, 4:16 am
I have to say that I've never understood the bias against werewolves in the wizarding world. Maybe we're not being told something about them? It doesn't seem to change their mental/physical abilities in any regards and when they are a wolf they don't have any control. So why the bias?

Uh . . . fear perhaps? And the fact that they can't recognize their best friend or family member when they have transformed? I think we have been told alot about them, actually, only most of it is in Fantastic Beasts instead of the main books.

See I agree with this too...I just have a problem with "pure-blood fanatic" Snape!. Snape doesn't seem to be the a pure-blood fan...he hates people equally . Sirius, in GoF, could easily have gotten off a huge blow at Snape to Ron and Harry by saying that Snape had always believed pure-bloods are to better but he doesn't. Also I remembered (after the big discussion on the Death Eaters in this thread) that the Death Eaters were originally called the Knights of Walpurgis before Voldemort took control of them. Maybe Snape felt that they were the best way to learn the Dark Arts even under Voldemort (he's crazy but he's also a Dark Arts master).

I agree with that idea. Knowing how intelligent Snape is, and seeing SWM, I would think he might join in order to gain knowledge of how to fight or how to defend himself, more than knowledge of how to kill and torture people.

However, Chievrefueil makes some good points about Snape leaving for a good reason. I just think we don't know how much knowledge he had of Voldemort and how much he likes killing.

I also agree that Snape isn't against half-bloods or muggle-borns. He is often seen talking to Filch, for instance, and never shows him any disrespect. And we don't really know enough about the other teachers at the school to know whether any of them are muggle born or half-blood.

I'm not entirely convinced that Snape hates werewolves....but I am convinced that Snape hates Marauders. I think that some of the comments that Snape made about Lupin being a werewolf were less about him being a werewolf and more about him being a Marauder. He's hiding one hatred by feigning another.

That's a really good point! Or you could say, since the book is from Harry's point of view, that it "seemed" that Snape hated Lupin because he was a werewolf, but he could have been watching Lupin closely and acting distrustful because of things that happened in the past with the Marauders.

Abak
March 21st, 2005, 4:32 am
That's a really good point! Or you could say, since the book is from Harry's point of view, that it "seemed" that Snape hated Lupin because he was a werewolf, but he could have been watching Lupin closely and acting distrustful because of things that happened in the past with the Marauders.
He uses the term werewolf as an insult. That is evidence enough that he doesn't treat people who suffer from lycanthropy with a great deal of respect. His words express that having lycanthropy is something you should feel ashamed about. He also has used the word mudblood. By perpetuating the prejudice with his words, he is on the side of pureblood fanatics and lycanthropy haters.

Chievrefueil
March 21st, 2005, 4:44 am
Sirius, in GoF, could easily have gotten off a huge blow at Snape to Ron and Harry by saying that Snape had always believed pure-bloods are to better but he doesn't. I'm not sure I follow your thought to it's conclusion. . .Harry and Ron already hate Snape, so why would it have mattered if Sirius told them that Snape was a "pureblood supremacist" (for lack of a better term)?Perhaps he thought he'd be able to continue practicing them in one form or another; after all, he did ask for the DADA slot when offered a teaching position at Hogwarts. :eyebrows:Why rock the boat, then? If Snape is already getting what he wants from Voldemort, he doesn't need to switch sides and put his life in danger. It doesn't make sense for that to be the only reason.But again, the problem lies in that Snape (or Umbridge or others) is evidently unable to distinguish between Lupin as a normal, regular human being, and Lupin as the werewolf he is thirteen nights of the year. He's been suspicious all this time, except for the vast majority of that time Lupin has been in his human form, and when he is in his werewolf form he's been rendered tame by the Wolfsbane Potion.I don't think his "suspicion" was caused by Lupin's lycanthropy so much as by Lupin's friend(s), though. Understandably mistakes and accidents can and will happen, but it seems like there's nothing a lycanthrope can do right in order for people to stop being supsicious. There always seems to be a "what if" attached to any good they do. Lupin takes his Wolfsbane regularly ... but what if he doesn't? Snape approaches Lupin with the assumption that if he waits long enough Lupin will trip up and confirm everything he may have ever thought negatively about werewolves, and lo and behold that very thing happens. :sigh:I don't think we can say that Snape assumes anything about Lupin's liklihood of tripping up, but I don't think it would necessarily be wrong if he was fearful (not suspicious) of Lupin for this reason. Even Lupin thinks this way--he tells Harry so when he is discussing his resignation.

Because of the way it's written, lycanthropy is compared to HIV/AIDS. There are some similarities, but also an important difference. They both are highly transmissible through certain mechanisms of spread. They likely both shorten normal lifespan. They are both stigmas. The difference is that a transformed werewolf cannot control itself and would "infect" as many people as possible. Lupin describes biting himself as a werewolf because his desire to bite others was so great. People with HIV/AIDS are able to practice methods of controlling transmission (abstinence, not sharing needles, etc) at all times. If they don't and they knowingly transmit HIV to another individual, they can be prosecuted. Now, the wolfsbane potion is a method of controlling transmission, but once a werewolf is transformed, it's too late and the situation is very dangerous. It's more like a drunk driver. Before someone is drunk, they have the sense not to drive when drunk, but after they are drunk, their judgement is altered to the point that they do decide to drive and put others at risk. Werewolves should take the wolfsbane potion, but if just one dose is missed, they lose all capacity to avoid harming other people.

Given all that, I don't think that werewolves deserve to be discriminated against--they are the unfortunate victims of victims. I just think that it's understandable that people would fear them, even with the wolfsbane potion available.

grrliz
March 21st, 2005, 4:52 am
No, I agree with all that, Chiev, my point is that people approach them with that same fear and attitude when it's not a full moon which is just completely inexplicable.

Chievrefueil
March 21st, 2005, 5:16 am
No, I agree with all that, Chiev, my point is that people approach them with that same fear and attitude when it's not a full moon which is just completely inexplicable.I see. You're right--that bit doesn't seem to make sense.

Jaguarundi
March 21st, 2005, 5:53 am
Quote from Chievrefueil:
I'm not sure I follow your thought to it's conclusion. . .Harry and Ron already hate Snape, so why would it have mattered if Sirius told them that Snape was a "pureblood supremacist" (for lack of a better term)?

I guess I was trying to say that Snape has never been accused of being a "pureblood supermacist" by anyone other then himself (during SWM which makes the whole mudblood calling incident suspect). Then the reader is told that the Death Eater’s creed is that they believe in the purity of blood. It seems odd to me…since Snape is Slytherin I’m sure he doesn’t have any problems with people that do believe in blood purity but I can’t see Snape ever buying into it.

But I agree that Snape most have had a good reason to leave. I just don’t think it requires an ideological break with Voldemort…in my view Snape never believed in the blood purity to began with and if he was deep into Dark Arts (which is not confirmed) you don’t have to renounce them, just stop using them (it’s implied that Dumbledore has vast knowledge of the Dark Arts in CoS). It’d be easier to understand why Snape left if we understood why he joined.

Quote from silver ink pot
Uh . . . fear perhaps? And the fact that they can't recognize their best friend or family member when they have transformed? I think we have been told alot about them, actually, only most of it is in Fantastic Beasts instead of the main books.

But when the werewolf is not transformed there's nothing special about them. There's no evidence that they're stronger, smarter, or more magically powerful then a normal wizards. That's what I don't understand...I mean Umbridge passed laws that deprived werewolves of jobs but really doesn't it make more sense to simply order all of them to report to special cages before the full moon and if they don't come then ship them to Azkaban? (If we're going to declare the Wizarding World a fascist system we should at least have them use it to improve something :p )

This has gotten me thinking about the werewolves in general. A lot of people assume that Lupin is somehow in contact with the werewolves or something along those lines but why? I mean they have nothing to gain by Voldemort taking over and they don't offer either side an advantage (even if a battle was to happen on a full moon unless they had all take wolfsbane that'd be uncontrollable and I doubt Voldemort has any trouble using AK on them). Also it could be that a large portion of the werewolves are muggle which would limit what they could do.

WoodenCoyote
March 21st, 2005, 6:01 am
This has gotten me thinking about the werewolves in general. A lot of people assume that Lupin is somehow in contact with the werewolves or something along those lines but why? I mean they have nothing to gain by Voldemort taking over and they don't offer either side an advantage (even if a battle was to happen on a full moon unless they had all take wolfsbane that'd be uncontrollable and I doubt Voldemort has any trouble using AK on them). Also it could be that a large portion of the werewolves are muggle which would limit what they could do.I think what it was was they were trying to prevent as many people as possible from going over to Voldemort's side no matter who they were. Its just that werewolves are a special interest group because they have the most reasons for hating the MoM and we know that Volde is targeting them specifically. So the Order is trying to head him off at the pass by getting to them first. They do the same for the giants and goblins, as we're told in OotP.

kingwidgit
March 21st, 2005, 6:07 am
But when the werewolf is not transformed there's nothing special about them. There's no evidence that they're stronger, smarter, or more magically powerful then a normal wizards. That's what I don't understand...I mean Umbridge passed laws that deprived werewolves of jobs but really doesn't it make more sense to simply order all of them to report to special cages before the full moon and if they don't come then ship them to Azkaban?The fear that most wizards have of people suffering lycanthropy and subsequent MOM laws, prohibiting work, etc., really has the dark overtones of HIV/AIDS sufferers in the 80's & early 90's. It was mass hysteria, running people out of town, throwing rocks through windows, burning down houses, not letting children attend school because parents were afraid their own children would get it through casual contact, like with drinking fountains, and sniffs & sneezes. Even today, there is still a lot of fear...but it's balanced with knowledge and education.
Excepting the fact that no one knows for sure (except JKR), if the virus which causes lycanthropy is carried through blood/saliva/bodily fluids---perhaps this is why wizards still fear it.

whizbang121
March 21st, 2005, 6:54 am
Sting is a great poet! I've been a fan for a very long time. Just thought I would point out, though, that Sting is afraid of death.........

I actually thought he should play Voldemort ... mostly because of the high cold laugh.

clkginny
March 21st, 2005, 7:51 am
I'm not entirely convinced that Snape hates werewolves....but I am convinced that Snape hates Marauders. I think that some of the comments that Snape made about Lupin being a werewolf were less about him being a werewolf and more about him being a Marauder. He's hiding one hatred by feigning another.

A certain amount of Snape’s dislike of werewolves, or at least this particular werewolf, could have something to do with him almost meeting him on a full moon in the confines of the shrieking shack, courtesy of our beloved Padfoot. :evil:

HermioneLuna
March 21st, 2005, 8:15 am
A certain amount of Snape’s dislike of werewolves, or at least this particular werewolf, could have something to do with him almost meeting him on a full moon in the confines of the shrieking shack, courtesy of our beloved Padfoot. :evil:

Possibly, but Snape has to know that Lupin was innocent in that situation. Sirius told Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow and Snape decided to listen to Sirius. Considering their history and the fact that it involved the Whomping Willow, I find the fact that Snape willingly followed Sirius' directives to be monumentally stupid on Snape's part.

However, Lupin had no part of Sirius' plan to get Snape past the Whomping Willow and to the Shrieking Shack. That isn't to say that a dislike couldn't have manifested because of it. It just seems more likely that Snape would have a phobia of werewolves rather than a dislike of Lupin if that were the case. Snape and Lupin may not be friends, but Snape knows enough to know that Lupin is not a dangerous or reckless man except for one night of the month do to circumstances beyond his control.

It would make sense for Snape to be afraid of meeting a full grown werewolf, as it would make sense for any person to be fearful. But to blame Lupin for being where he was supposed to be because he (Snape) chose to believe Sirius isn't fair to Lupin. Then again, Snape isn't known for being fair or even reasonable. :evil:

I think Snape is, like many people, the product of his upbringing. It's clear that werewolves are feared and discriminated against throughout the wizarding world. There is an irrational fear of them simply because they change for a few hours every month. Snape was likely raised in an evironment where prejudice, discrimination, and the Dark Arts were commonplace. To him, it's probably natural to think poorly of werewolves. And the fact that Lupin is not only a werewolf, but also a Marauder surely does nothing to decrease Snape's dislike. Nor does it help to remove his prejudices.

clkginny
March 21st, 2005, 8:28 am
Emotion often isn't reasonable. It wouldn't be fair for Snape to dislike Lupin solely because of an incident that Lupin had no control over, but it wouldn't be that unlikely. If saving Snape meant that James put himself in great danger, Snape would've been in the same danger. Being that close to death does sometimes make people unreasonable. Granted, I don't think that fits Snape's character.

However, I believe that Snape feels Lupin was in on the joke, the same way he feels that James was. Which would account for Snape's unreasonable dislike of Lupin.

HermioneLuna
March 21st, 2005, 9:32 am
Emotion often isn't reasonable. It wouldn't be fair for Snape to dislike Lupin solely because of an incident that Lupin had no control over, but it wouldn't be that unlikely. If saving Snape meant that James put himself in great danger, Snape would've been in the same danger. Being that close to death does sometimes make people unreasonable. Granted, I don't think that fits Snape's character.

However, I believe that Snape feels Lupin was in on the joke, the same way he feels that James was. Which would account for Snape's unreasonable dislike of Lupin.

I understand that emotion isn't always reasonable. If all emotion could be explained by reason, it wouldn't be emotion. And you're right in saying that it isn't unlikely that Snape doesn't like Lupin because of the Whomping Willow incident. I even acknowledged that in my post.

However, Lupin had no part of Sirius' plan to get Snape past the Whomping Willow and to the Shrieking Shack. That isn't to say that a dislike couldn't have manifested because of it.


However, I believe there is more to their dislike than that one situation. As I said in my previous post, Snape isn't known for being fair or reasonable. Not that reason is always a factor in dislike depending on the circumstances, Snape still isn't a very reasonable person.

It happened when the boys were 16. Snape is now in his 30s and, while he's perfectly within his rights to remain angry about the incident, he should have matured enough so that he can separate Lupin and the werewolf. It was the werewolf that would have hurt Snape, not Lupin himself. Yet, Snape insists on calling Lupin a werewolf rather than by his name.

Snape has an unreasonable dislike of more people than just Lupin. I find his instant dislike of Harry without ever giving Harry a chance to prove he wasn't James to be unreasonable. I also find his dislike and torment of Neville to be unreasonable.

I think that, while the Whomping Willow incident certainly didn't help Snape's relationship with the Marauders, it isn't the only reason Snape dislikes Lupin. As I said before, there are other factors such Snape's upbringing and the company Lupin kept.

silver ink pot
March 21st, 2005, 12:32 pm
I've been a fan for a very long time. Just thought I would point out, though, that Sting is afraid of death.........

I actually thought he should play Voldemort ... mostly because of the high cold laugh.

:huh: My goodness!

clkginny
March 21st, 2005, 3:25 pm
I understand that emotion isn't always reasonable. If all emotion could be explained by reason, it wouldn't be emotion. And you're right in saying that it isn't unlikely that Snape doesn't like Lupin because of the Whomping Willow incident. I even acknowledged that in my post.
I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't. Sorry. I was just trying to explain what I see.

However, I believe there is more to their dislike than that one situation. As I said in my previous post, Snape isn't known for being fair or reasonable. Not that reason is always a factor in dislike depending on the circumstances, Snape still isn't a very reasonable person.

It happened when the boys were 16. Snape is now in his 30s and, while he's perfectly within his rights to remain angry about the incident, he should have matured enough so that he can separate Lupin and the werewolf. It was the werewolf that would have hurt Snape, not Lupin himself. Yet, Snape insists on calling Lupin a werewolf rather than by his name.

Snape has an unreasonable dislike of more people than just Lupin. I find his instant dislike of Harry without ever giving Harry a chance to prove he wasn't James to be unreasonable. I also find his dislike and torment of Neville to be unreasonable.

I think that, while the Whomping Willow incident certainly didn't help Snape's relationship with the Marauders, it isn't the only reason Snape dislikes Lupin. As I said before, there are other factors such Snape's upbringing and the company Lupin kept.
I don't disagree with you on Snape and his talent for being unreasonable.

Like I said, I was trying to explain how I see it. I agree that Snape sees the werewolf, not the person. But, if he thinks Lupin was in on the SS incident that would make it more understandable. Not right, or reasonable, merely more understandable.

I hope that was clearer. :D

Jaguarundi
March 21st, 2005, 4:04 pm
Quote from kingwidgit
The fear that most wizards have of people suffering lycanthropy and subsequent MOM laws, prohibiting work, etc., really has the dark overtones of HIV/AIDS sufferers in the 80's & early 90's. It was mass hysteria, running people out of town, throwing rocks through windows, burning down houses, not letting children attend school because parents were afraid their own children would get it through casual contact, like with drinking fountains, and sniffs & sneezes. Even today, there is still a lot of fear...but it's balanced with knowledge and education.
Excepting the fact that no one knows for sure (except JKR), if the virus which causes lycanthropy is carried through blood/saliva/bodily fluids---perhaps this is why wizards still fear it.

I see the overtones as well but it's also important to remember that lycanthropy has been around for a lot longer then HIV/AIDS. This isn't a new disease in the wizarding world.

Quote from WoodenCoyote
I think what it was was they were trying to prevent as many people as possible from going over to Voldemort's side no matter who they were. Its just that werewolves are a special interest group because they have the most reasons for hating the MoM and we know that Volde is targeting them specifically. So the Order is trying to head him off at the pass by getting to them first. They do the same for the giants and goblins, as we're told in OotP.

Actually that's not true...in his "Return" speech to the Death Eater's in Goblet of Fire Voldemort never mentions the werewolves just the Gaints and the Dementors (honestly who more does he need!!!!). Maybe the Order is barking up the wrong tree?

WoodenCoyote
March 21st, 2005, 5:03 pm
Actually that's not true...in his "Return" speech to the Death Eater's in Goblet of Fire Voldemort never mentions the werewolves just the Gaints and the Dementors (honestly who more does he need!!!!). Maybe the Order is barking up the wrong tree?Well they say "dark creatures," and I think its mentioned at one point in the series that he courted the werewolves during the first war. I should go look it up..

kingwidgit
March 21st, 2005, 6:20 pm
I see the overtones as well but it's also important to remember that lycanthropy has been around for a lot longer then HIV/AIDS. This isn't a new disease in the wizarding world.Actually, we don't know how long lycanthropy has been around in the wizarding world. The books, and JKR never says...only that it is thought to have originated in Northern Europe.
As for HIV/AIDS, well how many of you know that it was addressed by the World Health Organization in 1910?
It was under the name of African Slim's Disease. Some doctors and scientist were very concerned with this disease (which had been occurring in Africa for several hundred years) and it's spread through-out the general public--the W.H.O. wasn't...today African Slim's Disease is classified as a radical form of wasting TB in the HIV/AIDS population of Africa.

Chievrefueil
March 21st, 2005, 7:07 pm
As for HIV/AIDS, well how many of you know that it was addressed by the World Health Organization in 1910?
It was under the name of African Slim's Disease. Some doctors and scientist were very concerned with this disease (which had been occurring in Africa for several hundred years) and it's spread through-out the general public--the W.H.O. wasn't...today African Slim's Disease is classified as a radical form of wasting TB in the HIV/AIDS population of Africa.I don't think this is correct. I did a quick PubMed search for "slim disease" and found that it is characterized by wasting and diarrhea. Certainly these symptoms may be caused by AIDS and, given the prevalence of AIDS in Africa, people who currently have this problem likely have AIDS; however, the symptoms, being non-specific, wouldn't be diagnostic of AIDS in 1910. Here are references to 2 journal articles that support this:

The typical presentation of AIDS in adults in Africa is with severe wasting, diarrhoea, and fever; the term "slim" was introduced in Uganda in 1985 to describe this. More than 80% of patients infected with HIV-1 admitted to hospital have lost over a tenth of their body weight, and over 40% have chronic diarrhoea. These features were incorporated into the World Health Organisation's clinical case definition for AIDS surveillance in Africa and later refined as the HIV wasting syndrome for resource poor countries.

Abstract
There is considerable genetic diversity among viruses of different subtypes (designated A to J) in the major group of human immunodeficiency virus type 1 (HIV-1), the form of HIV that is dominant in the global epidemic. If available, HIV-1 sequences pre-dating the recognition of AIDS could be crucial in defining the time of origin and the subsequent evolution of these viruses in humans. The oldest known case of HIV-1 infection was reported to be that of a sailor from Manchester who died of an AIDS-like illness in 1959; however, the authenticity of this case has not been confirmed. Genetic analysis of sequences from clinical materials obtained from 1971 to 1976 from members of a Norwegian family infected earlier than 1971 showed that they carried viruses of the HIV-1 outlier group, a variant form that is mainly restricted to West Africa. Here we report the amplification and characterization of viral sequences from a 1959 African plasma sample that was previously found to be HIV-1 seropositive. Multiple phylogenetic analyses not only authenticate this case as the oldest known HIV-1 infection, but also place its viral sequence near the ancestral node of subtypes B and D in the major group, indicating that these HIV-1 subtypes, and perhaps all major-group viruses, may have evolved from a single introduction into the African population not long before 1959.

kingwidgit
March 21st, 2005, 7:15 pm
I don't think this is correct. I did a quick PubMed search for "slim disease" and found that it is characterized by wasting and diarrhea. Certainly these symptoms may be caused by AIDS and, given the prevalence of AIDS in Africa, people who currently have this problem likely have AIDS; however, the symptoms, being non-specific, wouldn't be diagnostic of AIDS in 1910. Here are references to 2 journal articles that support this:What is currently known as Africans Slim Disease, is not what was known as African Slim's Disease in 1910...and the info is correct...Straight from a doctor with top level security clearance with the CDC...He gave a seminar to everyone enrolled as Hospice workers/volunteers in my county, several years ago, via the Health Dept, the Seminar was how to recognize, protect against, and treat those who have been exposed to biohazard contamination. Swear. To. God.

Straight from W.H.O.
Q: Where did AIDS come from?
A: AIDS is caused by a virus called HIV, but where this virus came from is not known. However, as new facts are discovered about viruses like HIV, the question of where HIV first came from is becoming more complicated to answer. Moreover, such questions are no longer relevant and do not help in our efforts to combat this epidemic. What is more important is the fact that HIV is present in all countries and we need to determine how best to prevent the further spread of this deadly virus

Q: Where was AIDS found?
A: AIDS was first recognized in the United States in 1981. However, it is clear that AIDS cases had occurred in several parts of the world before 1981. Evidence now suggests that the AIDS epidemic began at roughly the same time in several parts of the world, including the U.S.A. and Africa

As for lycanthropy, if we assume it's been around as long as the myth of werewolves--that takes us back many centuries...

Chievrefueil
March 21st, 2005, 7:31 pm
What is currently known as Africans Slim Disease, is not what was known as African Slim's Disease in 1910...I don't understand what you mean. If what is currently known as African Slim Disease is not the same entity as what the term was used to describe in 1910, how can it be said that AIDS was probably around in 1910?Straight from W.H.O.What you quoted is consistent with what I quoted--the first known case of AIDS occurred in the mid-20th century.

However, it went unrecognized until about 1980; therefore, there was no concept of the disease to fear until that time.

I would think that lycanthropy has been around as long as legend about it.

kingwidgit
March 21st, 2005, 7:49 pm
Seroarchaeological studies suggest that HIV was first introduced into the human population in Central Africa between the early 20th century and the 1950s [4].Their studies indicate that it was the EARLY part of the 1900's to the mid-part...not mid to late. And it was detected in several countries other than Africa and the U.S.
As to the name change, many times, when investigating a disease, as more knowledge of the entymology becomes available, names of the diseases change. In this case, the change was purposefully made, because the W.H.O. doesn't want to answer the question of--if they knew it was occurring back in 1910, why didn't someone study it, why wasn't it monitored, who dropped the ball. As to why it was called Slim's disease, easy...anorexia nervosa--nausea, vomitting, diarrhea...extreme weight loss and dehydration.

atherella
March 21st, 2005, 8:11 pm
The AIDS / Slim disease connection is fascinating, however.....

Not to be a kil-job, but we really should steer back on topic. :)

Chievrefueil
March 21st, 2005, 8:24 pm
Their studies indicate that it was the EARLY part of the 1900's to the mid-part...not mid to late.It makes sense that if the first known case (only recognized 25 years later) occurred in 1959 that the virus actually entered the population at some time prior to that date. However, there's nothing to indicate that it was prevalent in Africa in 1910--if it was, we would be much worse off than we are now. At least some people in Africa get anti-retroviral therapy now--such a thing would not have been possible in 1910. Penicillin was not even discovered until World War II.As to the name change, many times, when investigating a disease, as more knowledge of the entymology becomes available, names of the diseases change. In this case, the change was purposefully made, because the W.H.O. doesn't want to answer the question of--if they knew it was occurring back in 1910, why didn't someone study it, why wasn't it monitored, who dropped the ball. As to why it was called Slim's disease, easy...anorexia nervosa--nausea, vomitting, diarrhea...extreme weight loss and dehydration.I don't think this is likely because the WHO can't be faulted for doing nothing about it--there would have been nothing to do. DNA wasn't even characterized until 1953*, how would there be any capacity to understand a retrovirus in the early 1900's? As I said above, penicillin wasn't even around in the early 1900's, so how could there be any antiretroviral treatments, which are much more advanced? So, even if AIDS was recognized as an entity in the early 1900's, there would have been no way to diagnose it (there would be no HIV test available, if people don't know about DNA, etc), no way to understand the mechanism by which it makes people sick (there could be no understanding of molecular biology before an understanding of DNA), and no treatment.

*I thought it was in the late 1940's, but the earliest publication I could find on the structure of DNA was from 1953.

Okay, back on topic. :)

Regarding the question of why lycanthropy would still be feared even though it has likely been around for centuries, it probably has to do with the difficulty in controlling werewolves. Obviously, one who was uncontrolled bit Lupin as a child and another (I assume) bit the man in St. Mungo's. The wolfsbane potion is relatively new (within 20 years). For many years, probably keeping away from werewolves was the best way to protect yourself. If there were none in your community, the chances would be less that you'd be bitten during a full moon. Lupin was contained in the Shrieking Shack, so it's questionable as to why something of this nature wasn't done for all werewolves all along, rather than marginalizing them. Perhaps it was tried, but often failed?

Wandering Bard
March 21st, 2005, 8:54 pm
Regarding the question of why lycanthropy would still be feared even though it has likely been around for centuries, it probably has to do with the difficulty in controlling werewolves. Obviously, one who was uncontrolled bit Lupin as a child and another (I assume) bit the man in St. Mungo's. The wolfsbane potion is relatively new (within 20 years). For many years, probably keeping away from werewolves was the best way to protect yourself. If there were none in your community, the chances would be less that you'd be bitten during a full moon. Lupin was contained in the Shrieking Shack, so it's questionable as to why something of this nature wasn't done for all werewolves all along, rather than marginalizing them. Perhaps it was tried, but often failed?

The fact that werewolves haven't died out is evidence that they are not safe. Just one stray werewolf loose in Hogsmeade could bite several people. For many wizards, the risk would be too great: better that werewolves are outcast than infect others. Exile may have been self-imposed by some. Of course, once the werewolves were outcast, it would be a lot easier to forget that they were human too; they would just be seen as beasts.

FirefightingMuggle
March 21st, 2005, 9:15 pm
The fact that werewolves haven't died out is evidence that they are not safe. Just one stray werewolf loose in Hogsmeade could bite several people. For many wizards, the risk would be too great: better that werewolves are outcast than infect others. Exile may have been self-imposed by some. Of course, once the werewolves were outcast, it would be a lot easier to forget that they were human too; they would just be seen as beasts.

In modern times, the danger could be dealt with. Lupin was taking that potion in POA that made him into nothing more than a wolf (not a werewolf) during his transformations. It took the danger out of him. I also remember him saying that the potion was a modern discovery. There is a treatment available now. Not a cure mind you, but there is a treatment...a way to supress the danger.
I have to wonder how widely used is the potion?

kingwidgit
March 21st, 2005, 9:48 pm
There is a treatment available now. Not a cure mind you, but there is a treatment...a way to supress the danger.
I have to wonder how widely used is the potion?That's a really good question...my guess would be that it's not easily or readily available to all...and some may not want to take it.
POA, Flight of the Fat Lady, pgs. 156, 157:
"Professor Snape has very kindly concocted a potion for me," he said. "I have never been much of a potion-brewer and this one is particularly complex." He picked up the goblet and sniffed it. "Pity sugar makes it useless," he added, taking a sip and shuddering.
"Why--?" Harry began. Lupin looked at him and answered the unfinished question.
"I've been feeling a bit off-color," he said. "This potion is the only thing that helps. I am very lucky to be working alongside Professor Snape; there aren't many wizards who are up to making it."

Wandering Bard
March 21st, 2005, 10:30 pm
That's a really good question...my guess would be that it's not easily or readily available to all...and some may not want to take it.

Lupin mentions that he isn't very good at potions. Can he make it himself? Does he have to go through the transformations without it, if Snape doesn't make it for him?

Random question: can you put werewolves under the imperious curse? That might be a useful trick for Voldemort.

RemusLupinFan
March 21st, 2005, 10:36 pm
I just don’t see Snape turning if he didn’t believe what Voldemort was doing was wrongI agree, it wouldn’t make any sense for Snape to have joined Voldemort without believing in at least some of his ideals in the first place. But though he may have believed in them at one point, I am confident that he truly had a change of heart and he doesn’t believe in them any longer, as evidenced by many of the examples of Snape’s behavior that have been cited so far.

But again, the problem lies in that Snape (or Umbridge or others) is evidently unable to distinguish between Lupin as a normal, regular human being, and Lupin as the werewolf he is thirteen nights of the year.I definitely agree with you here, from Snape's quotes that have been posted from the Shrieking Shack scene, it seems evident that he views Lupin as someone who is subhuman. I agree that past events between Snape and the Marauders has the effect of enhancing Snape's hatred and prejudice in this issue, but I'm not sure he would use Lupin's condition solely as an insult if he didn't have prejudiced feelings against werewolves. The quote that really solidifies for me Snape's anti-werewolf sentiments is where he says, "you know, Lupin... a tame werewolf --"

But here is another possibility to discuss, though I'm not sure I believe it. What if Snape is disguising his unreasonably hatred of Lupin for 1) being a Marauder and 2) for what happened in Sirius’ prank by calling attention to Lupin’s condition? Could Snape realize on some level that his hatred for Lupin is unjustified, and so could he be trying to justify this hatred by using Lupin's condition? Again, I’m not sure I really believe this, but it is another possibility that I'm throwing out to see what people think. :)

This has gotten me thinking about the werewolves in general. A lot of people assume that Lupin is somehow in contact with the werewolves or something along those lines but why? I mean they have nothing to gain by Voldemort taking over and they don't offer either side an advantage (even if a battle was to happen on a full moon unless they had all take wolfsbane that'd be uncontrollable and I doubt Voldemort has any trouble using AK on them). Also it could be that a large portion of the werewolves are muggle which would limit what they could do.I think Voldemort would try to target the werewolves because they are already ostracized from wizard society. Therefore, I believe they would be easy targets for Voldemort to use to increase his army. As a collective group, werewolves may feel they have something to gain by joining Voldemort if he were to offer them a cure to lycanthropy for anyone willing to join his ranks. He could also promise them power and a sense of belonging -two very powerful things that almost everyone wants- but for a group of people who have been marginalized and discriminated against, I imagine these are exactly the kinds of things that many people who suffer from lycanthropy would desire most of all, especially freedom from the bondage of their curse. Though, it would seem that if Voldemort offered werewolves a cure to lycanthropy, he would be lying because JK indicates several times during the story that there is no cure (these are the two most prominent examples that come to mind):a) PoA: "My parents tried everything, but in those days there was just no cure." ~ Lupin
b) OotP: "Bitten by a werewolf, poor chap. No cure at all." ~ Arthur Weasley.).
Now, I don’t think all werewolves would fall into Voldemort's webs of lies and deceit, nor do I think that all werewolves will join this fight in some capacity. But I do think that the potential is there for at least some of them to fall for Voldemort's traps and become part of his minions.

So given this, I believe that Lupin's mysterious work for the Order may have been designed to raise the awareness of werewolves as a collective group regarding Voldemort's standard tactics of deceit and evil.

Random question: can you put werewolves under the imperious curse? That might be a useful trick for Voldemort.I assume you mean werewolves as in transformed wizards on the night of the full moon (because at any other time, werewolves are just normal people). That is an intriging question- I'd wager no one has ever tried to do this because one would usually focus on running in the other direction when faced with a werewolf. It might depend on how strong the will of the werewolf is.

Chievrefueil
March 21st, 2005, 11:52 pm
But here is another possibility to discuss, though I'm not sure I believe it. What if Snape is disguising his unreasonably hatred of Lupin for 1) being a Marauder and 2) for what happened in Sirius’ prank by calling attention to Lupin’s condition? Could Snape realize on some level that his hatred for Lupin is unjustified, and so could he be trying to justify this hatred by using Lupin's condition? Again, I’m not sure I really believe this, but it is another possibility that I'm throwing out to see what people think. :)That's possible, but Lupin and Snape are in direct confrontation when he makes all the werewolf comments aren't they? Are there any that occur while Snape should be making nice? If not, Snape's comments could be designed more for what he believes will hurt Lupin than for his actual opinions.I assume you mean werewolves as in transformed wizards on the night of the full moon (because at any other time, werewolves are just normal people). That is an intriging question- I'd wager no one has ever tried to do this because one would usually focus on running in the other direction when faced with a werewolf. It might depend on how strong the will of the werewolf is.Since werewolves don't really have any will or "mind" when they're transformed, would it be possible to control what isn't there?

Jaguarundi
March 22nd, 2005, 12:37 am
Quote from RemusLupinFan
I assume you mean werewolves as in transformed wizards on the night of the full moon (because at any other time, werewolves are just normal people). That is an intriging question- I'd wager no one has ever tried to do this because one would usually focus on running in the other direction when faced with a werewolf. It might depend on how strong the will of the werewolf is.

This was a point that I was trying to make earlier. There's no point in Voldemort recruiting werewolves to his side because they offer him nothing. In fact we haven't even been told that most werewolves are wizards, it'd make more sense that the majority were muggles who wouldn't fear the cry and wouldn't stand a chance against a magical beast (a wizard with his wand is a powerful opponent perhaps in a match for a werewolf if it doesn't have surprise on its side). Lupin was bitten when he was very young before he had even begun his magical training.

ChiChi
March 22nd, 2005, 1:34 am
Werewolves offer him (Voldy) plenty ( the wizard ones mostly).
1. The more the merrier. the more people he has on his side the fastest he will gain control.

whizbang121
March 22nd, 2005, 1:42 am
I've been thinking about Snape and ideology and something about this troubles me. I don't really see Snape as ever having been a big pure-blood fanatic. Snape seems more like Voldemort in a way, being a "pure-blood" supporter is more of a means to an end then anything else. I have a theory that Snape was drawn to the Death Eaters because of his interest in the Dark Arts more then anything else (perhaps the reason he's not allowed to teach them?).The Dark Arts are not a hobby or even a vocation. The Dark Arts, practiced by Dark wizards, are a means of exercising control over others. Bottle fame? Brew glory? Not exactly altruistic.

kingwidgit
March 22nd, 2005, 1:47 am
This was a point that I was trying to make earlier. There's no point in Voldemort recruiting werewolves to his side because they offer him nothing. In fact we haven't even been told that most werewolves are wizards, it'd make more sense that the majority were muggles who wouldn't fear the cry and wouldn't stand a chance against a magical beast (a wizard with his wand is a powerful opponent perhaps in a match for a werewolf if it doesn't have surprise on its side). Lupin was bitten when he was very young before he had even begun his magical training.Don't you think, with wizard-kinds irrational fear of werewolves in general--regardless of being in a transformed state or not--qualifies for what LV calls "an army of creatures whom all fear"?

RemusLupinFan
March 22nd, 2005, 2:15 am
Since werewolves don't really have any will or "mind" when they're transformed, would it be possible to control what isn't there?Hmm, you're right they don't have any human mind, but I'm wondering if their animal/instinctual mind could be manipulated by the Imperius Curse, perhaps to stop their attack on any humans in the vicinity. I'm not sure this would work though.

There's no point in Voldemort recruiting werewolves to his side because they offer him nothing.I agree with kingwidgit- the fact that so many people fear werewolves is something that Voldemort could take advantage of. Also, as I said before, I think they are easy targets for Voldemort if he is looking to swell his ranks with more supporters, and I’m sure he's looking to increase his supporters at every opportunity. And what better target than someone who is already disenfranchised and disenchanted with the wizarding world and the MoM? So I believe it would be very beneficial for Voldemort to try to recruit werewolves to 1) gain more supporters and 2) utilize the fear the general public has for them.

Jaguarundi
March 22nd, 2005, 2:28 am
Quote from kingwidgit
Don't you think, with wizard-kinds irrational fear of werewolves in general--regardless of being in a transformed state or not--qualifies for what LV calls "an army of creatures whom all fear"?

But in an untransformed state they are useless unless they are wizards as well...and most people know this. Wizard's fear of werewolves has inspired them to become oppressive to the werewolf population but it hardly seems to be total paranoia (ie. the running screaming at the mere sight of an untransformed werewolf). And I mean if they not wizards and it’s not the fully moon what are they going to do? :p

But do you all think that Lupin is representative of the werewolves in general...we could well be dealing with another Dobby (misfit in regards to others of his kind). Doesn't it state that the Shrieking Shack has been quiet ever since Lupin left (not that many magical children are bitten I suppose)? Perhaps as a child bitten by a werewolf Lupin was able to more fully adjust to his condition then someone bitten latter in life.

Quote from RemusLupinFan
I agree with kingwidgit- the fact that so many people fear werewolves is something that Voldemort could take advantage of. Also, as I said before, I think they are easy targets for Voldemort if he is looking to swell his ranks with more supporters, and I’m sure he's looking to increase his supporters at every opportunity. And what better target than someone who is already disenfranchised and disenchanted with the wizarding world and the MoM? So I believe it would be very beneficial for Voldemort to try to recruit werewolves to 1) gain more supporters and 2) utilize the fear the general public has for them.

One word: Dementors. They offer everything and more that the werewolves offer without the risk of a decent werewolf like Lupin slipping in. Honestly the werewolves have the feel of a ministry paper tiger...when things are down you put in laws that control those "dangerous werewolves" and show that you're doing something :eyebrows: (rather then deal with the real issues of the wizarding world).

kingwidgit
March 22nd, 2005, 2:45 am
But in an untransformed state they are useless unless they are wizards as well...and most people know this. Wizard's fear of werewolves has inspired them to become oppressive to the werewolf population but it hardly seems to be total paranoia (ie. the running screaming at the mere sight of an untransformed werewolf). And I mean if they not wizards and it’s not the fully moon what are they going to do? :p
But do you all think that Lupin is representative of the werewolves in general...we could well be dealing with another Dobby (misfit in regards to others of his kind). Doesn't it state that the Shrieking Shack has been quiet ever since Lupin left (not that many magical children are bitten I suppose)? Perhaps as a child bitten by a werewolf Lupin was able to more fully adjust to his condition then someone bitten latter in life.
One word: Dementors. They offer everything and more that the werewolves offer without the risk of a decent werewolf like Lupin slipping in. Honestly the werewolves have the feel of a ministry paper tiger...when things are down you put in laws that control those "dangerous werewolves" and show that you're doing something :eyebrows: (rather then deal with the real issues of the wizarding world).The same irrational fear that wizard-kind exhibit toward werewolves...regardless of being in untransformed: POA: Lupin made toward him, looking concerned, but Ron gasped, "Get away from me werewolf!"
This same fear we see wizard-kind share, about giants--or even half-giants, though: GoF: Ron looked around at Harry, his expression very serious indeed. "Did you know?" he whispered. "About Hagrid being half-giant?"
"No," Harry said, shrugging. "So what?"
He knew immediately, from the look Ron was giving him, that he was once again revealing his ignorance of the wizarding world. Brought up by the Dursleys, there were many things that wizards took for granted that were revelations to Harry....
GoF: "The dementors will join us...they are our natural allies...we will recall the banished giants...I shall have all of my devoted servants returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear"?
Whether there is or is not a reason to fear werewolves in an untransformed state...it is abundantly clear that the wizarding community at large fears "all" werewolves. Or it could just be Ron :p .

And as for paper tiger---don't forget the rounding up and tagging of merpeople...truely useful MOM stuff...

clkginny
March 22nd, 2005, 3:15 am
Okay, if we assume that Voldemort would recruit werewolves based on reputation, what will he do with them? If he lets them "run" they are as much or more a danger to Voldemort's forces than to others. He will end up with even more werewolves, not to mention a loss of general forces, but he will also lose werewolves to those that can adequately defend themselves. Now, I'm sure that Voldemort's motives are the height of altruistic (sarcasm) but war is won by numbers and strategy. There is no such thing as a fair fight in war. It would make no sense for him to potentially weaken his forces like that.

kingwidgit
March 22nd, 2005, 3:22 am
Okay, if we assume that Voldemort would recruit werewolves based on reputation, what will he do with them? If he lets them "run" they are as much or more a danger to Voldemort's forces than to others. He will end up with even more werewolves, not to mention a loss of general forces, but he will also lose werewolves to those that can adequately defend themselves. Now, I'm sure that Voldemort's motives are the height of altruistic (sarcasm) but war is won by numbers and strategy. There is no such thing as a fair fight in war. It would make no sense for him to potentially weaken his forces like that.
Not even if the wizard who suffers lycanthropy is very good with magic and not afraid to use it? Seems to me, LV wants followers...mostly those who know which end of a wand to use...but Wormtail had his uses...besides Wormtail turned out to be pretty powerful, didn't he...blowing up an entire street, cracking the sewer below, and killing 11 people with a single curse...
LV is seeking out the Giants, who by all accounts are as vicious as Trolls and enjoy killing just as much...what makes him think that he will truly be able to control them? By the way--thanx for the *sarcasm tags*. Sometimes it goes over my head completely...alright most of the time. :p

clkginny
March 22nd, 2005, 3:34 am
I agree that Voldemort wants followers, the more the better. However, it would be a potential disaster with werewolves. You either have to convince them to willingly not fight on the full moon (while guaranteeing them their "rights"), or you lock them up (unlikely to be very popular with them, either), or you can let them run loose, possibly risking substantial damage to your own forces. Or you could segregate them, which probably wouldn't be a wise way to handle them, either. How many people could one werewolf kill or infect in one night? For every person they infect, that is one more to deal with. How many killed by werewolves, and how many werewolves killed, themselves? I have trouble seeing Voldemort use werewolves, from a strategic standpoint, it appears to be unlikely, the logistics would be too hard to work around.

(When injecting sarcasm, better to be safe than sorry. :eyebrows: )

asrivathsan
March 22nd, 2005, 6:43 am
Thanks to everyone, who gave me the links...

Oh my! my computer had gone nuts for the past two days... finally it is alright! It is great to be back to COS and especially to this thread! And great to see version 9!I will try to make up as fast as possible...

You either have to convince them to willingly not fight on the full moon (while guaranteeing them their "rights"), or you lock them up (unlikely to be very popular with them, either), or you can let them run loose, possibly risking substantial damage to your own forces. Or you could segregate them, which probably wouldn't be a wise way to handle them, either. How many people could one werewolf kill or infect in one night?

You really do remind me of that movie "28 Days later" :). But very true. How can one control a werewolf? You really don't want a subdued werewolf, so otherwise, how would you control them. Voldy's need for forces is one thing, but i don't think he is that desperate. For him, the more the better... But there are other creature he can make use of, dementors, being one of them.

LV is seeking out the Giants, who by all accounts are as vicious as Trolls and enjoy killing just as much...what makes him think that he will truly be able to control them?
Hmm... but trolls in a way are controllable aren't they? Atleast, for guarding, they are quite good, since they don't seem to go helter skelter like werewolfs do. But giants, are far more intelligent than trolls are. If dmbledore can think than negotiating with them is possible then why not voldemort?

subtle science
March 22nd, 2005, 12:15 pm
I agree with clkginny: werewolves as some sort of shock troops for Voldemort just doesn't make sense, since a transformed wizard is out of control--he's quite violent, but indiscriminate about whom he's attacking. While that might be good for terrorism, it can't be controlled to make sure it doesn't backfire and catch up Voldemort's own people in the violence (not that he's so concerned for their welfare, but, as clkginny said, not to lose supporters). And a werewolf using the Wolfsbane Potion loses that atrractively violent paroxsym that would instill terror (sarcasm).

It does seem that the Ministry (read: Umbridge) just uses the werewolf issue as a political ploy--makes it look as if they're doing something while Voldemort gains power and they deny that, and target an unpopular group that doesn't exactly have strong advocacy. The fear is somewhat understandable: if you don't become a werewolf yourself after an attack, if you survivie it, then you are killed. And JKR doesn't quite go this far--yet--but werewolves prey on humans (the closest I can remember to this being brought up in the books is when Lupin says that he was only a danger to other humans, and that's why the Animagi could run with him). Humans have a tendency to overreact to animals that feed on them: consider what the average person thinks of great white sharks or salt/freshwater crocodiles. So the logic, that werewolves are only dangerous during a full moon, and even that can be controlled by the Wolfsbane Potion, falls by the wayside in the face of irrational fear. And thereby presents an excellent opportunity for politicians who want to appear proactive without facing real issues: who's going to stand up for a rag-tag bunch of potential killers?

Which tangentially brings up the use of the Wolfsbane Potion. It renders a werewolf harmless: that alone would seem to undermine everything that the Ministry/Umbridge is doing. Consider how easy it would be for them (her) to publicize this treatment and reduce or eliminate the population's fear. I don't really think the HIV/AIDS analogy works for lycanthropy--except in this: the overwhelming, absurdly irrational fear of transmission was substantially reduced in the US by a sustained, blanket campaign by the government and health agencies to disseminate facts about the disease, treatment, etc.

Lupin says the Potion is "particularly complex" and "there aren't many wizards who are up to making it" (p. 157, PoA, US paper). So already treatment is limited by the difficulty of making the potion. Presumably, St. Mungo's can provide the treatment, but how readily available is it outside of major hospitals? Lupin doesn't make it sound like something you could whip up at home. And random thought without canon to support it (except for the information that it is so difficult to make): is it expensive? It would be another reason why it is not widely used and so diminish or eliminate people's fears of werewolves. We see Lupin's penury and know he can't sustain employment because of his condition...what about the rest of the werewolves, who may not be in the position to have someone close at hand who can not only make the potion but do it free of charge?

And then, just to continue the trend of pure speculation...what if there are werewolves who don't want treatment--who enjoy their condition because they enjoy the violence? They might not necessarily be inclined to join Voldemort; they might just enjoy the opportunities presented by the overall chaos of war. That's venturing far out onto the splintering twigs in the speculation tree....! : )

asrivathsan
March 22nd, 2005, 12:35 pm
Yeah, it is just because they want the fact to be supressed. I really do wonder if ministry is upto any good...

And then, just to continue the trend of pure speculation...what if there are werewolves who don't want treatment--who enjoy their condition because they enjoy the violence?
But violence is one thing, undergoing the pain is another. Your description sounds really like sirius. Didn't lupin say that when he was in school, the transformations were more painful? Why would anyone in the world want to undergo that pain.
Secondly, your actions as a werewolf, are not your actions, really. What joy would you get by doing something, that your self hasn't? I hope you understand what i mean. If a person likes being violent, then he/she would rather be violent when they are in their senses....

I doubt even voldy would be willing to do it :). So is there any one weirder than LV? :D

SitDown
March 22nd, 2005, 2:42 pm
Okay, if we assume that Voldemort would recruit werewolves based on reputation, what will he do with them? If he lets them "run" they are as much or more a danger to Voldemort's forces than to others. He will end up with even more werewolves, not to mention a loss of general forces, but he will also lose werewolves to those that can adequately defend themselves. Now, I'm sure that Voldemort's motives are the height of altruistic (sarcasm) but war is won by numbers and strategy. There is no such thing as a fair fight in war. It would make no sense for him to potentially weaken his forces like that.

It makes perfect sense, but:
1. I think it is written somewhere that Voldemort tried to recruit werewolves during the first war;
2. I think it is written somewhere that he tries to recruit vampires- or not- But if it's true, then vampires are not easy to control either, although they are more controlable than werewolves;
3. normally werewolves kill their victims and Voldemort most certainly wants to have as many powerful weapons to killas possible ;
4. werewolves are dangerous as animals only once a month so maybe Voldemort is not so afraid of them coming after him on the nights of the full moon ;
5. he probably tries to chose the persons that are infected or killed, so it isn't exactly random. he may decide to kill those who are against him and inflict those who already have a bad side and are out of law;

6. there is the Wolfsbane potion which works both ways. he may use it in order to control wolves during the full moon in order to kill.

I think it's quite possible that one of Lupin's missions is to try to keep werewolves on DD's side.

I think it is not a coincidence that Jo mentioned werewolves among the dark creatures Voldemort is trying to recruit and I think that it is not a coincidence that we have started to find out about these creatures. first we have the giants, then we have the goblins mentioned and then we have the scene in St. Mongo where Lupin talks to another wolf.

I think it is not a coincidence!

By the way, hello everybody! I am new!

kingwidgit
March 22nd, 2005, 2:47 pm
SitDown[/B]]6. there is the Wolfsbane potion which works both ways. he may use it in order to control wolves during the full moon.This is an excellent idea...and I didn't even think of it. :grumble:

HermioneLuna
March 22nd, 2005, 9:33 pm
On the idea that Voldemort could use the Imperious Curse to control the werewolves of his army: Voldemort might not even need the effects of the Wolfsbane Potion in order to control werewolves in their transformed state. Lupin said that under the influence of the other Marauders, he became more controllable. That means that there is something inside a werewolf that retains his human mind and will, even if it is overshadowed by the animalistic tendencies of the werewolf itself. After all, if Lupin became more controllable, there was something there to control.

Therefore, maybe the Imperious Curse would work on a werewolf even if they hadn't taken the Wolfsbane Potion. If a werewolf can be influenced in one direction, it stands to reason that it can also be influenced in another.

Jaguarundi
March 22nd, 2005, 10:39 pm
As I stated earlier all of this talk on werewolves has caused me to come up with a theory about Lupin. Perhaps he is the "Dobby" of werewolves...the freak of the breed so to speak. First off we haven't seen another werewolf (the man in St. Mungo's has just been bitten so he really hadn't had to deal with it yet) so we simply assume that Lupin is a "normal" werewolf. Second to our knowledge the Shrieking Shack has been quiet since Lupin left Hogwarts which means that young wizards rarely get bitten. So perhaps Lupin was able to better adept to his condition because of his youth (also he wouldn't really have any pre-werewolf times to remember). Third Lupin is a wizard, who may or may not make up the majority of werewolves . Just as Dobby stands out among the house-elves perhaps Lupin stands out among the werewolves? (Just a theory)

WoodenCoyote
March 22nd, 2005, 10:46 pm
As I stated earlier all of this talk on werewolves has caused me to come up with a theory about Lupin. Perhaps he is the "Dobby" of werewolves...the freak of the breed so to speak. First off we haven't seen another werewolf (the man in St. Mungo's has just been bitten so he really hadn't had to deal with it yet) so we simply assume that Lupin is a "normal" werewolf. Second to our knowledge the Shrieking Shack has been quiet since Lupin left Hogwarts which means that young wizards rarely get bitten. So perhaps Lupin was able to better adept to his condition because of his youth (also he wouldn't really have any pre-werewolf times to remember). Third Lupin is a wizard, who may or may not make up the majority of werewolves . Just as Dobby stands out among the house-elves perhaps Lupin stands out among the werewolves? (Just a theory)I imagine many werewolves die early. They end up taking their own lives, get put down either by the MoM or wizards "doing the right thing," or die from complications from their wounds or transformations. So Remus might be a rarity among werwolves simply because he's lived so long with the condition.

kingwidgit
March 22nd, 2005, 10:55 pm
On the idea that Voldemort could use the Imperious Curse to control the werewolves of his army: Voldemort might not even need the effects of the Wolfsbane Potion in order to control werewolves in their transformed state. Lupin said that under the influence of the other Marauders, he became more controllable. That means that there is something inside a werewolf that retains his human mind and will, even if it is overshadowed by the animalistic tendencies of the werewolf itself. After all, if Lupin became more controllable, there was something there to control.

Therefore, maybe the Imperious Curse would work on a werewolf even if they hadn't taken the Wolfsbane Potion. If a werewolf can be influenced in one direction, it stands to reason that it can also be influenced in another.It was only when the others were in a transformed 'animal state' that he became less dangerous..His body was still wolfish, but his mind seemed to become less so while he was with them.
Even given the fact that they (the Marauders) were animals, Remus still could have killed any of them, as werewolves actively seek humans in preference to any other prey...but Hagrid was concerned enough to worry for Buckbeak's safety, even questioned Remus if he could remember eating anything the night before...Sirius and James turned into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check...but there were many close calls.
So if a werewolf is exposed to a muggle, witch, or wizard--it's instinct is to attack, kill, eat...I'm sure there aren't to many wizards who want to face a werewolf, well most don't want to face a untransformed werewolf, either.
Incidentally, FB&***T says nothing about the werewolf, once transformed, becoming mindless, that's from the POA movie....

HermioneLuna
March 22nd, 2005, 11:52 pm
It was only when the others were in a transformed 'animal state' that he became less dangerous..His body was still wolfish, but his mind seemed to become less so while he was with them.
Even given the fact that they (the Marauders) were animals, Remus still could have killed any of them, as werewolves actively seek humans in preference to any other prey...but Hagrid was concerned enough to worry for Buckbeak's safety, even questioned Remus if he could remember eating anything the night before...Sirius and James turned into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check...but there were many close calls.
So if a werewolf is exposed to a muggle, witch, or wizard--it's instinct is to attack, kill, eat...I'm sure there aren't to many wizards who want to face a werewolf, well most don't want to face a untransformed werewolf, either.
Incidentally, FB&***T says nothing about the werewolf, once transformed, becoming mindless, that's from the POA movie....

My point was that if the other Marauders could have any effect whatsoever on Lupin's mental state, there was something in his mind that was able to be controlled. Therefore, if there's something in his mind that's able to be controlled, the Imperious curse might be able to work on werewolves. Despite the werewolf's natural tendency to attack humans over other creatures, under the Imperious curse that tendency can be controlled.

I never said that a transformed werewolf becomes mindless. I was responding to other points raised in this discussion.

grrliz
March 23rd, 2005, 1:00 am
My point was that if the other Marauders could have any effect whatsoever on Lupin's mental state, there was something in his mind that was able to be controlled. Therefore, if there's something in his mind that's able to be controlled, the Imperious curse might be able to work on werewolves. Despite the werewolf's natural tendency to attack humans over other creatures, under the Imperious curse that tendency can be controlled.Lupin doesn't actually mention anything about control; what he says is that under their influence he became less dangerous, so comparatively he's less dangerous to the other three as animagi than he is when they're human. Sirius and James were able to keep him in check due to their size as a controlling feature, not due to Lupin's mental state. He does mention his mental state by saying he became "less wolfish" but I'm not sure that necessarily means "more controllable"; perhaps in the absence of human prey a transformed werewolf is able to think more clearly, or less "wolfish"?

subtle, your mentioning of werewolves who might like to be infected and avoid treatment reminds me of a magazine article I read a couple of years ago about people called "bug chaserss" who purposely get themselves infect with HIV and then go around purposely infecting others. The reasons for doing this were varied, but I wonder how many of those reasons might apply to werewolves. One of the reasons was to create a sense of "community": the more people infected, the bigger the community gets, the lessened the stigmatism becomes. (Or so the logic goes.)

shaggydogstail
March 23rd, 2005, 1:55 am
He does mention his mental state by saying he became "less wolfish" but I'm not sure that necessarily means "more controllable"; perhaps in the absence of human prey a transformed werewolf is able to think more clearly, or less "wolfish"?In the circumstances though, wouldn't 'less wolfish' imply 'more human'? Lupin says much the same about Wolfsbane Potion, though I think it has a much stronger effect. Under the potion his body transforms, but he is able to keep his own mind, or at least enough of it to not be dangerous. If 'less wolfish' does equate to 'more human' then that would suggest that a 'less wolfish' werewolf would be more suseptable to the Imperius Curse, but even then I think it would have to be a very stong curse. (Which I think is what HermioneLuna was getting at) Even then it might only control the 'human' elements of the transifigured werewolves mind, leaving the 'animal instincts' to roam free, so I'm not sure either way. If that all makes sense. :huh:
Oiginally posted by grrliz
subtle, your mentioning of werewolves who might like to be infected and avoid treatment reminds me of a magazine article I read a couple of years ago about people called "bug chaserss" who purposely get themselves infect with HIV and then go around purposely infecting others. The reasons for doing this were varied, but I wonder how many of those reasons might apply to werewolves. One of the reasons was to create a sense of "community": the more people infected, the bigger the community gets, the lessened the stigmatism becomes. (Or so the logic goes.)Yes, and I've also heard less, uh, scary versions of similar theories. For example, some members of the Deaf Community are opposed to things like cochliear (sp?) implants, which are given to Deaf children to improve their hearing. Some people see this as an attack on Deaf culture. (As it presupposes that being deaf is a bad thing, when not all deaf people believe that it is). Of course the crucial difference is that deaf people aren't ever a danger to anyone else just because they are deaf!

I've heard similiar ideas floating around about mental illness, which might be a slightly better parallel. Many people with severe and potentially dangerous mental disorders are fine only so long as they take medication. But there is a school of thought that says that pychiatric medication is a form of social control (ties in with the 'who is anyone to say anyone else is mad, its the world that's mad sort of thing). Add to this the nasty side effects of many of these medications which can leave people feeling quite spaced out and you can see why some people reject attempts at treatment, especially drug based treatments. The same might apply to some werewolves I suppose - that they feel their lycanthropy is part of them which they must embrace to understand and be themselves, and that large-scale treatment programmes would be another form of Ministry control. This would sound like a radical minority view though - I'm sure most lycanthropy sufferers, like Lupin, are more frightened of biting someone than anything else!
Originally posted by WoodenCoyote
I imagine many werewolves die early. They end up taking their own lives, get put down either by the MoM or wizards "doing the right thing," or die from complications from their wounds or transformations. So Remus might be a rarity among werwolves simply because he's lived so long with the condition.I think the lycanthropy itself takes its toll. Lupin is often described as looking prematurily aged, which I imagine has something to do with all those painful transformations he goes through. It all sounds very debilitating and I would imagine not very good for his general health.

subtle science
March 23rd, 2005, 2:10 am
Once more roaming outside the boundaries of the books...to the legends of werewolves that do refer to the lure of the transformation: the shedding of civilized behavior and the ability to become completely wild and unbound by any law. The monthly abandonment of any control becomes an exercise of power, as the werewolf is an almost unstoppable, wild killer. The werewolf begins to enjoy the sprees, as it is the one time he can be absolutely free of social constraints. That type in the legends would seem likely to go with Voldemort...but I can't see how any werewolf that only infected others would be overly useful--since the victim may or may not want to join Voldemort. There would be the terror--but, after a while, there'd be rather too many uncommitted victims wandering around. Werewolves who liked killing would work better for Voldemort.

Speaking of roaming outside the boundaries, how about Malfoy's fear in PS/SS that detention in the Forbidden Forest will bring them into contact with werewolves?

"The forest?" he repeated, and he didn't sound quite as cool as usual. "We can't go in there at night--there's all sorts of things in there--werewolves, I heard."
Neville clutched the sleeve of Harry's robe and made a choking sound.
"That's your problem, isn't it?" said Filch, his vocie cracking with glee. "Should've thought of them werewolves before you got into trouble, shouldn't you?" (p. 249, US paper)

Mugglelvr
March 23rd, 2005, 2:36 am
It was only when the others were in a transformed 'animal state' that he became less dangerous..His body was still wolfish, but his mind seemed to become less so while he was with them.

While this is true, as pointed out by Lupin, he also noted that it was only because they were in animal form. If they had run across a human while they were out on their escapades in Hogsmeade, Lupin would have attacked the human, and there would have been nothing the other Marauders could have done to stop him. He noted how foolish and reckless their behavior had been, and how dangerous for anyone who might have crossed their path.

The Marauders, in their animal form made his tranformation easier because as he mentioned in the Shrieking Shack, when he was locked up in there by himself, with no humans to bite, he attacked himself, thus the screaming and howling noises the people of Hogsmeade grew to fear. The Marauders took his mind off that part of his transformation and made it much easier for him.

perhaps in the absence of human prey a transformed werewolf is able to think more clearly, or less "wolfish"?

That exactly how I understood what he said. It's like a cat and a mouse - if you put a mouse in front of a cat, the cat's instinct is to eat the mouse. It's all about primal instinct. If they'd have wandered upon a human, I doubt that a dog and a stag would have stopped Lupin's instinct to attack the human.

clkginny
March 23rd, 2005, 2:41 am
As far as the wolfsbane potion goes, there are logicstics to be overcome there as well. How hard are the ingredients to get/how rare are they? How many wizards have the skill to brew it? How long does it take to brew? How many werewolves would have to be dosed in what time period? How much potion would have to be brewed? How much can you brew at a time? Who will make sure that all the werewolves have gotten their potion? What if a couple don't get it in time? While Voldemort might be trying to get the werewolves on his side, I doubt it would be for active fighting. The complications still seem too difficult to overcome.

Mugglelvr
March 23rd, 2005, 3:25 am
As far as the wolfsbane potion goes, there are logicstics to be overcome there as well. How hard are the ingredients to get/how rare are they? How many wizards have the skill to brew it? How long does it take to brew? How many werewolves would have to be dosed in what time period? How much potion would have to be brewed? How much can you brew at a time? Who will make sure that all the werewolves have gotten their potion? What if a couple don't get it in time? While Voldemort might be trying to get the werewolves on his side, I doubt it would be for active fighting. The complications still seem too difficult to overcome.

Lupin said he had to take the potion for a week before the full moon in order for it work. Lupin said not many Wizards were able to make the potion as it was quiet complicated.

FirefightingMuggle
March 23rd, 2005, 3:33 am
I would guess that most healers would be able to make the Wolfsbane Potion. I don't think that one could become a healer without good potion making skills, as making potions would be something that you would deal with every day.
I believe that when Harry and friends were looking at Career choices in OotP, someone mentioned healer as an option. I think you needed NEWT level potions to even qualify to train as a healer. I would think that, given Snape's high standards to get into his NEWT level class, it would only make sense that most of the younger healers at least would have the ability to make the Wolfsbane potion.
But, cost is still a question. And, I would guess that there aren't a whole lot of healers just floating around willing to make the potion, so availability would still be limited.

silver ink pot
March 23rd, 2005, 3:57 am
I've been off-line for two days (a little spring-break road trip) and I've enjoyed reading the discussion as I've tried to catch up. :tu:

Hi, SitDown! Welcome!

http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/emoticons3/ACC35.GIF



This was a point that I was trying to make earlier. There's no point in Voldemort recruiting werewolves to his side because they offer him nothing. In fact we haven't even been told that most werewolves are wizards, it'd make more sense that the majority were muggles who wouldn't fear the cry and wouldn't stand a chance against a magical beast (a wizard with his wand is a powerful opponent perhaps in a match for a werewolf if it doesn't have surprise on its side). Lupin was bitten when he was very young before he had even begun his magical training.

Well, First of all, I don't think it is true that a wizard is a good opponent for werewolf. If all it took was magic to control a werewolf, why would anyone in the wizarding world fear them? Why would James, Peter, and Sirius have bothered to transform themselves in order to be with Lupin? Why would Malfoy, Jr., be so frightened of them? Why would they be controlled by the Ministry? Finally, why would a powerful wizard like Dumbledore tell Lupin he has to leave Hogwarts if magic could control a werewolf?

Second of all, Voldemort would love to round up all the muggles who are actually werewolves during a full moon. Why? Because they are easily controlled by the Imperious Curse. He could make them go wherever he wanted them to go, and wizards wouldn't be afraid of them because they are muggles, and then there would be that "element of surprise" you also mention! Or a Muggle Werewolf, who can't be killed through ordinary means, could be forced to go into any number of places in the Muggle World, from a hospital to a crowded theatre on the night of a full moon, and then wreak havoc and create alot of new werewolves in a short amount of time. The muggle werewolf wouldn't even remember it the next day, probably, and no one would suspect them.


But in an untransformed state they are useless unless they are wizards as well...and most people know this. Wizard's fear of werewolves has inspired them to become oppressive to the werewolf population but it hardly seems to be total paranoia (ie. the running screaming at the mere sight of an untransformed werewolf). And I mean if they are not wizards and it’s not the fully moon what are they going to do?

A muggle under the Imperious Curse could do many things for Voldemort, too numerous to list here!

But do you all think that Lupin is representative of the werewolves in general...we could well be dealing with another Dobby (misfit in regards to others of his kind). Doesn't it state that the Shrieking Shack has been quiet ever since Lupin left (not that many magical children are bitten I suppose)? Perhaps as a child bitten by a werewolf Lupin was able to more fully adjust to his condition then someone bitten latter in life.

I'd say Lupin accepts his condition, but perhaps isn't a well-adjusted as he seems. That is just my opinion.

Another idea I've had about how Voldemort could control werewolves during the full moon is that other creatures large creatures might be able to control them, the same way James and Sirius supposedly controlled Lupin. For instance, werewolves only go after human "prey," and they might not care to bite giants or trolls. Of course a "half-human" like Hagrid, might have trouble with a werewolf.

Dementors might also keep them under control, though we have no canon about that except that when the dementor attacked Sirius and Harry in PoA, Lupin was strangely absent from the scene. Also when Snape was summoning stretchers for Ron, Hermione, Harry, and Sirius after the Dementor attack, Lupin didn't seem to be around all of a sudden. :huh:

It was only when the others were in a transformed 'animal state' that he became less dangerous..His body was still wolfish, but his mind seemed to become less so while he was with them.
Even given the fact that they (the Marauders) were animals, Remus still could have killed any of them, as werewolves actively seek humans in preference to any other prey...but Hagrid was concerned enough to worry for Buckbeak's safety, even questioned Remus if he could remember eating anything the night before...Sirius and James turned into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check...but there were many close calls.
So if a werewolf is exposed to a muggle, witch, or wizard--it's instinct is to attack, kill, eat...I'm sure there aren't to many wizards who want to face a werewolf, well most don't want to face a untransformed werewolf, either.
Incidentally, FB&***T says nothing about the werewolf, once transformed, becoming mindless, that's from the POA movie....

I agree with all that, kingwidget - that goes along with what I wrote above.

In the circumstances though, wouldn't 'less wolfish' imply 'more human'? Lupin says much the same about Wolfsbane Potion, though I think it has a much stronger effect. Under the potion his body transforms, but he is able to keep his own mind, or at least enough of it to not be dangerous. If 'less wolfish' does equate to 'more human' then that would suggest that a 'less wolfish' werewolf would be more suseptable to the Imperius Curse, but even then I think it would have to be a very stong curse. (Which I think is what HermioneLuna was getting at) Even then it might only control the 'human' elements of the transifigured werewolves mind, leaving the 'animal instincts' to roam free, so I'm not sure either way. If that all makes sense

It makes sense, but those are good questions about Lupin-wolf's mind being "less wolfish" or "more human." All I can say is that some dogs are "more wolfish," meaning they like to jump on people and bite them, bark and howl at everything, and like to chase anything that moves. Then there are much more "human" type dogs that are quieter, seem to understand commands from their masters, and act much more "trained." So you might say those latter dogs are "less wolfish."

Once more roaming outside the boundaries of the books...to the legends of werewolves that do refer to the lure of the transformation: the shedding of civilized behavior and the ability to become completely wild and unbound by any law. The monthly abandonment of any control becomes an exercise of power, as the werewolf is an almost unstoppable, wild killer. The werewolf begins to enjoy the sprees, as it is the one time he can be absolutely free of social constraints. That type in the legends would seem likely to go with Voldemort...but I can't see how any werewolf that only infected others would be overly useful--since the victim may or may not want to join Voldemort. There would be the terror--but, after a while, there'd be rather too many uncommitted victims wandering around. Werewolves who liked killing would work better for Voldemort.

I think you are right, subtle science. I think there are werewolves who might think they are doing others a favor in "creating" more werewolves who are "free" from the constraints of society.

And I like to look at the history of werewolves, too, although JKR clearly has her own ideas and not everything applies. Here is an online text of Sabine Baring-Gould's Book of Werewolves, written in 1865. I find it fascinating:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/goth/bow/

Sabine Baring-Gould (1834-1924) was a Vicar in the Church of England in Devon, an archaeologist, folklorist, historian and a prolific author. Baring-Gould was also a bit eccentric. He reputedly taught classes with a pet bat on his shoulder. He is best known for writing the hymn 'Onward Christian Soldiers'.

This book is one of the most cited references about werewolves. The Book of the Were-Wolf takes a rationalistic approach to the subject.

The book starts off with a straightforward academic review of the literature of shape-shifting; however, starting with Chapter XI, the narrative takes a strange turn into sensationalistic 'true crime' case-studies of cannibals, grave desecrators, and blood fetishists, which have a tenuous connection with lycanthropy

Reading it might give everyone an idea of what kinds of werewolves we might see that are different from Lupin.

Finally, here is a quote from an old movie some of you may have seen: "I Was a Teenage Werewolf" with Michael Landon playing the tormented youth. Instead of being "bitten" in the story, the teenage boy is "treated" by a "mad scientist" who wants to send humans back to their original animal natures:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050530/quotes

Dr Alfred Brandon: I'm going to TRANSFORM him, and unleash the savage instincts that lie hidden within... and then I'll be judged the benefactor. Mankind is on the verge of destroying itself. The only hope for the human race is to hurl it back into its primitive norm, to start all over again. What's one life compared to such a triumph?

http://twtd.bluemountains.net.au/Rick/liz_tw.htm

As for Dr Brandon, his obsession’s a doozey. Mankind is on the brink of destroying itself, so he’s going to "hurl it back to its primitive roots". Didn't know that mankind was actually descended from wolves, did you? I guess Darwin forgot to mention it. But Dr Brandon knows, and to save us all he's going to regress us into our "real" natures. How precisely a world full of people behaving the way we see Tony Rivers behaving is a good thing remains unexplained, but Dr Brandon seems to feel the experiment is progressing well.

I can see Voldemort wanting to turn as many muggles as possible "back to their primitive roots." :evil: Of course it is a really silly movie, and not the canon we have to work with, but interesting all the same.

Chievrefueil
March 23rd, 2005, 4:21 am
In the circumstances though, wouldn't 'less wolfish' imply 'more human'? Lupin says much the same about Wolfsbane Potion, though I think it has a much stronger effect. Under the potion his body transforms, but he is able to keep his own mind, or at least enough of it to not be dangerous.Actually, I think he says that the wolfsbane potion just makes him an "ordinary" wolf. He says nothing about its effect on his state-of-mind. Once more roaming outside the boundaries of the books...to the legends of werewolves that do refer to the lure of the transformation: the shedding of civilized behavior and the ability to become completely wild and unbound by any law. The monthly abandonment of any control becomes an exercise of power, as the werewolf is an almost unstoppable, wild killer. The werewolf begins to enjoy the sprees, as it is the one time he can be absolutely free of social constraints.In a way, this is a normal aspect of human nature. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned Anne Rice's Interview with the Vampire. I'm reminded of how that story ends. The vampire is disgusted that after everything he says--all the self-loathing torture he describes--the boy who is interviewing the vampire expresses his desire to become a vampire himself.

Freedom from the normal bounds of society can be enticing--on the other hand, being a non-transformed werewolf the other 365 days hardly seems worth it, judging by Lupin's experience.

clkginny
March 23rd, 2005, 4:36 am
Welcome back, SIP, hope you had fun on your road trip.
Another idea I've had about how Voldemort could control werewolves during the full moon is that other creatures large creatures might be able to control them, the same way James and Sirius supposedly controlled Lupin. For instance, werewolves only go after human "prey," and they might not care to bite giants or trolls. Of course a "half-human" like Hagrid, might have trouble with a werewolf.
Actually, this was one of my concerns. If Voldemort tries to use Trolls to control anything it would probably be a disaster in the making. After all, as described in the books, they aren't the sharpest tacks. I'm not sure who would win in a troll/werewolf fight, but I doubt the winner would be up to much else when it was over.

As far as giants go, the are described as brutal and enjoying fights/killing, if I remember correctly, by Hagrid in OoTP. I would hesitate to put them in control over their own allies. Especially if the full moon was out. Assuming that werewolves would go for giants, anyway. But it might not matter to the giants.

I did like your idea about the muggle werewolves. That might even work on wizard werewolves, too. As long as he could get the information on who they are. Probably be a lot easier to get the names of wizard werewolves than muggle werewolves.

Jaguarundi
March 23rd, 2005, 4:37 am
Quote from silver ink pot:
Well, First of all, I don't think it is true that a wizard is a good opponent for werewolf. If all it took was magic to control a werewolf, why would anyone in the wizarding world fear them? Why would James, Peter, and Sirius have bothered to transform themselves in order to be with Lupin? Why would Malfoy, Jr., be so frightened of them? Why would they be controlled by the Ministry? Finally, why would a powerful wizard like Dumbledore tell Lupin he has to leave Hogwarts if magic could control a werewolf?

I meant they could use Avada Kedavra. The one strike rule applies to use on humans not a mad, killer wolf. Both the Marauders and Malfoy Jr. were still in school and without the full knowledge of the more advanced forms of magic. I didn’t really mean “control” the werewolf, I was thinking more along the lines of who would win a fight. From the magic we’ve seen in the series I’d say the wizard. They could bind the werewolf (Umbridge in the forest), try to stun it, drop something large on it (Ron and the troll), disorient it (Harry in the maze), torture it (Bellatrix in the DoM), light it on fire (all of Hermione’s fire tricks in book 1), etc (the list is quite long). So it seems that the werewolf needs surprise on its side to win (which probably works fairly well since I’d sure panic if I saw one coming).

Quote from Mugglelvr:
While this is true, as pointed out by Lupin, he also noted that it was only because they were in animal form. If they had run across a human while they were out on their escapades in Hogsmeade, Lupin would have attacked the human, and there would have been nothing the other Marauders could have done to stop him. He noted how foolish and reckless their behavior had been, and how dangerous for anyone who might have crossed their path.

Unless I'm mistaken the impression I got from PoA was that Sirius beat wolf!Lupin in a one-on-one fight (this also solves a long standing question: What's more dangerous then a deranged werewolf? Sirius Black as a deranged animagus :p ). And I've always got the impression that James was a large deer (are stags in Britain known as elk in North America? same species?) and wolves rarely attack full grown healthy males unless they have a strong pack (I'd think then one stag would be a match for a werewolf).

Quote from subtle science:
Once more roaming outside the boundaries of the books...to the legends of werewolves that do refer to the lure of the transformation: the shedding of civilized behavior and the ability to become completely wild and unbound by any law. The monthly abandonment of any control becomes an exercise of power, as the werewolf is an almost unstoppable, wild killer. The werewolf begins to enjoy the sprees, as it is the one time he can be absolutely free of social constraints. That type in the legends would seem likely to go with Voldemort...but I can't see how any werewolf that only infected others would be overly useful--since the victim may or may not want to join Voldemort. There would be the terror--but, after a while, there'd be rather too many uncommitted victims wandering around. Werewolves who liked killing would work better for Voldemort.

Quote from silver ink pot:
I'd say Lupin accepts his condition, but perhaps isn't a well-adjusted as he seems. That is just my opinion.

This cuts to the heart of the matter. Sirius loves the full moon whereas Lupin doesn't. Lupin doesn't seem to show any urge to abandon his social constraints. I'd still say that Lupin seems to be abnormal if the other werewolves are at all like what subtle science says.

kingwidgit
March 23rd, 2005, 5:43 am
Actually, I think he says that the wolfsbane potion just makes him an "ordinary" wolf. He says nothing about its effect on his state-of-mind. But POA does say exactly that.POA, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs, US ed., pgs. 352,353:
As long as I take it in the week preceding the full moon, I keep my mind when I transform.

grrliz
March 23rd, 2005, 5:49 am
Speaking of roaming outside the boundaries, how about Malfoy's fear in PS/SS that detention in the Forbidden Forest will bring them into contact with werewolves?

"The forest?" he repeated, and he didn't sound quite as cool as usual. "We can't go in there at night--there's all sorts of things in there--werewolves, I heard."
Neville clutched the sleeve of Harry's robe and made a choking sound.
"That's your problem, isn't it?" said Filch, his vocie cracking with glee. "Should've thought of them werewolves before you got into trouble, shouldn't you?" (p. 249, US paper)I wonder if this is another one of these "let's make up stuff about werewolves to scare the students" type of things. Tom Riddle says that he caught Hagrid with werewolf cubs, when, of course, there are no such thing. Are there really werewolves in the Forest, and if so, does that mean there are just random people running around and living in there when there's not a full moon? My own feeling is that there aren't actually werewolves in there, and that it's another myth handed down to keep students out of the Forest, just as the Shrieking Shack is said to be haunted to keep students from going there as well.

I'd say Lupin accepts his condition, but perhaps isn't a well-adjusted as he seems. That is just my opinion.Our of curiosity, what makes you think he's not as well-adjusted as he seems?

Norbertha
March 23rd, 2005, 6:55 am
Just thought I'd quote what it says about werewolves in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, although there is not much there that we don't already know from the books.

"M.O.M. classification: XXXXX*

*This classification refers, of course, to the werewolf in its transformed state. When there is no full moon, the werewolf is as harmless as any other human. FOr a heartrending account of one wizard's battle with lycanthropy, see the classis Hairy Snout, Human Heart by an anonymous author (Whizz Hard Books, 1975).

There werewolf is found worldwide, though it is believed to have originated in northern Europe. Humans turn into werewolves only when bitten. There is no known cure, though recent developments in potion-making have to a great extent alleviated the worst symptoms. Once a month, at the full moon, the otherwise sane and normal wizard or Muggle afflicted transforms into a murderous beast. Almost uniquely among fantastic creatures, the werewolf actively seeks humans in preference to any other kind of prey."

asrivathsan
March 23rd, 2005, 7:05 am
I agree with you, grrilz. Maybe its just that some one saw werewolfs on a full moon day and then "oh! the forest is packed with werewolfs. I myself was chased by one, and luckily i was not bitten"... something like that...

subtle science
March 23rd, 2005, 11:58 am
Welcome back, silver ink pot!

Actually, there's a whole psycho-sexual analysis that can be done of werewolves (as well as any of the other traditional monsters, such as vampires); it's really quite fascinating, but...I'm not sure I have the courage to venture into the psychology debate again..... : )

I'll reference Buffy again (I got hooked on the show in reruns last year; in some ways, it's similar to HP in the use of legendary beasts/monsters/etc. with its own twists and takes on the mythology): there's a whole story arc dedicated to Oz the werewolf, who gets caught up in enjoying his transformations, escaping his cage to run free and wreak havoc, coming to in odd places and not really knowing what it was that he did overnight--hearing later that people were attacked and killed....

The werewolves quote from PS/SS is interesting, whether or not there are really werewolves roaming the forest--albeit, why not? There are plenty of other creatures ranging from completely harmless to murderous in there. But even if there aren't, assuming that was just a bogeyman type of story to frighten the kids away from the Forest (like there isn't enough real stuff in there to keep them out...spiders? giant spiders? I'm with Ron on that one)--note that both Draco and Filch perpetuate the wizarding world's fear of werewolves in that little exchange.

I'd love to examine the idea of Lupin's adjustment to his condition, silver ink pot...but that does tend to arouse rather strong feelings from people; it could set off some acrimony. But the idea that he is well adjusted is one of those that are said frequently, but not analyzed often. I'd love to look closely at the books and see the degrees of his adjustment and the possibilities of how strong/weak it is and how it is reinforced/undermined, how it was developed, how it is under attack...

Because (don't laugh too loudly), the person Lupin reminds me most of is Jackie Robinson--the African-American who broke the color barrier in US baseball. Robinson was a spectacularly talented athlete; he was also one of the most gracious, kind-hearted people in society (never mind just the sports arena). He withstood incredible pressure: he was endlessly abused by racists--in the stands, in management, on opposing teams...even on his own team--and yet he just played the game, every day, to the utmost of his considerable abilities and never responded to the vileness spewed at him by the bigots...in public. His courage was stunning. What was not known, until much later, was the physical toll this fortitude took on him: among his personal problems were ulcers and high blood pressure. He maintained a surface calm, but the stress of supressing his anger at the constant barrage of racism affected him tremendously.

clkginny
March 23rd, 2005, 1:04 pm
This reminds me of the conversation from thread 7(?), well, I think it was 7. We discussed the line in PoA about Lupin telling Harry that the dementors were hungry, and there was something about his voice. Let me see if I can find the quote.

PoA pg 188 US Hardback
"They're getting hungry," said Lupin coolly, shutting his breifcase with a snap. "Dumbledore won't let them into the school, so their supply of human prey has dried up...I don't think they could resist the large crowd running around the Quidditch field. All that excitement...emotions running high...it was their idea of a feast."

I'm not sure if that was the right one. It seemed to us that Lupin was describing himself, in a way. The werewolf side of him would be similar to dementors, at least as far as human prey goes. While I think that Lupin is pretty well adjusted, I doubt that he has escaped repurcussions (his own mental/physical health) to the pressure of knowing he is a monster once or twice a month, let alone the prejudices of those who hate werewolves.

PotionStudent
March 23rd, 2005, 1:39 pm
I would guess that most healers would be able to make the Wolfsbane Potion. I don't think that one could become a healer without good potion making skills, as making potions would be something that you would deal with every day.

well, I always viewed the healers like our doctors - there must be the equivalent of pharmacists - potionmakers? OK, I am surely biased, being a pharmacist :eyebrows: I know that, at the pharmacy school, we did get loads and loads of hours of chemistry lab ; including a teacher, who was.. Let's say that compared to him, Snape /is/ already a pink fluffly bunny!

grrliz
March 23rd, 2005, 1:53 pm
I'm not sure I have the courage to venture into the psychology debate again..... : )I don't think anyone ever really had a problem with psychology in this thread, I think the problem people had was taking a bulleted list and checking off points to see whether or not a fictional character could fit within a psychological profile because they exhibited at least three of those bulleted points. I'm all for psychology, but with purpose and a point. Checklists aren't exactly the best way to provoke great discussion. As I mentioned ages and ages ago, based on the checklist approach to psychology, I think I can build a pretty compelling case that Sirius was suffering from post-partum depression. ;)

Actually, when you mentioned all the psycho-sexual stuff surrounding werewolves, I immediately thought of Coppola's Dracula (1992) because Dracula turns into a werewolf in that movie, rather than the bat that we normally associate him with. (I can't remember how it goes in the book, but I know Coppola took great artistic license with his interpretation of the novel, so I'm not sure it necessarily matters.) And as anyone who has seen that movie would remember, there is an intense sexualization of the werewolf, sublimation of his latent desire, etc. (Now that I think about it, I'm wondering if this topic is even appropriate given the family-friendly nature of the forum. I'll check on that.)

I'd love to examine the idea of Lupin's adjustment to his condition, silver ink pot...but that does tend to arouse rather strong feelings from people; it could set off some acrimony. I'm personally up for discussing it :tu:. There's nothing wrong with discussing a less-positive side of Remus J. Lupin (I imagine he's not always sunshine and daisies); the acrimony only seems to creep in when the arguments and discussion surrounding this negative side are flimsy at best, so if the discussion has legitimate basis in canon rather than exists for the sole reason of casting doubt on him for the sake of doing so, I imagine that even the Lupinintes would be able to take it in stride and discuss the issue.

Something I keep thinking about lately is what Sirius says when he visits in the fire in OotP, something along the lines of "You should hear what Remus says about [Umbridge]" (I don't have my book so that may not be the exact quote) and his phrasing suggests that it's not exactly nice what Lupin says about Umbridge. Now, obviously Umbridge is the ultimate anti-werewolf biggot so Lupin's take on her is probably entirely appropriate, but at the same time we never hear Lupin say a bad word about anyone, and even in this case it's still hearsay. I'm not suggesting that he didn't say it, but rather that he prefers to keep those negative sentiments either to himself or to share them only with Sirius (or possibly other members of the Order). We're not particularly priveledged to see a more negative side of Lupin -- his own negative side from within his person, rather than a negative side as projected by readers -- but we catch a glimpse of it in Sirius' statement.

Also, interesting comparison to Jackie Robinson!

Also Redux: someone mentioned a while ago the cost prohibitiveness of the Wolfsbane potion, which I think might also be another parallel to the HIV/AIDS thing due to the expensive cost of the drugs needed to keep those diseases in check.

clkginny
March 23rd, 2005, 2:07 pm
There isn't much negative canon about Lupin. As you pointed out, Grrliz, even what he says about Umbridge isn't actually seen, just referred to. I feel that Lupin is a good character, but I also feel that he must fight some demons due to his lycanthropy. However, even those aspects are often brushed over in canon. He is described as tired and prematurely aged, but we don't see Lupin allowing his demons out very often. The shrieking shack appears to be the only real time we see this in canon, and as Subtle has pointed out, this is the low point for several characters. Lupin is a good example of truimphing over what life throws at you, except that we never get to see how Lupin has really "dealed" with what life has thrown at him.

asrivathsan
March 23rd, 2005, 2:15 pm
I'm not suggesting that he didn't say it, but rather that he prefers to keep those negative sentiments either to himself or to share them only with Sirius (or possibly other members of the Order). We're not particularly priveledged to see a more negative side of Lupin -- his own negative side from within his person, rather than a negative side as projected by readers -- but we catch a glimpse of it in Sirius' statement.
I doubt he would even discuss with the other members of the order. He must have been a shy person... I think I had mentioned it in one of the previous posts in the V 8. Being a werewolf, he would have tried to keep it a secrret from others. And slowly this nature would have developed into him. He is mature, or as Robert Jordan would willingly say, hardened person. His childhood would have taught him a lot including how to hide his nature.

Also, we get Harry's point of view. Harry is young, and I doubt he could identify an adults bad qualities, if they are not too prominent as in voldemort's case.(I am not that old myself, but thats my opinion:) ). Maybe, if we could get dumbledore's or sirius' or even Arthur's view, we would get a much better idea. But still, Lupin seems to have coiled his feelings like DNA.

Grrliz, btw,nice avatar:)

Desraelda
March 23rd, 2005, 2:26 pm
As I mentioned ages and ages ago, based on the checklist approach to psychology, I think I can build a pretty compelling case that Sirius was suffering from post-partum depression. ;)
If Lily suffered from it, so did Sirius. I think the dynamic went from James doing what Sirius wanted (SWM), to Sirius hanging on to James and Lily because without James, he had no real life. James grew up, but Sirius didn't

Something I keep thinking about lately is what Sirius says when he visits in the fire in OotP, something along the lines of "You should hear what Remus says about [Umbridge]" (I don't have my book so that may not be the exact quote) and his phrasing suggests that it's not exactly nice what Lupin says about Umbridge. Now, obviously Umbridge is the ultimate anti-werewolf biggot so Lupin's take on her is probably entirely appropriate, but at the same time we never hear Lupin say a bad word about anyone, and even in this case it's still hearsay. I'm not suggesting that he didn't say it, but rather that he prefers to keep those negative sentiments either to himself or to share them only with Sirius (or possibly other members of the Order). We're not particularly priveledged to see a more negative side of Lupin -- his own negative side from within his person, rather than a negative side as projected by readers -- but we catch a glimpse of it in Sirius' statement.
I think Remus was a very quiet, introverted loner until he hooked up with the Marauders. Can you imagine being quiet and introverted around James and Sirius? Yes, James and Sirius would dominate, but I'll bet Remus held his own when it came down to it.

After the break up of the Marauders, Remus would have been thrown very much on his own, especially if James and Sirius suspected him of being the spy. Once the truth was known about Pettigrew, however, and he was reunited with Sirius, all those lonely years would have been thrown aside. Remus would have been himself again, hence the remark about Umbridge. And that's the only negative one we know about. There are other instances, of course, where he is a lot less than shy about his opinions, like the argument between Sirius and Molly over Harry. Altogether, a complex and compelling man.

grrliz
March 23rd, 2005, 2:32 pm
If Lily suffered from it, so did Sirius. I think the dynamic went from James doing what Sirius wanted (SWM), to Sirius hanging on to James and Lily because without James, he had no real life. James grew up, but Sirius didn'tI was mostly kidding about that the post partum depresion ;). Sirius was "too busy being a rebel" in JKR's words to get married and start a family, so while I think he spent a great deal of time with the Potters, I don't really picture him "hanging" onto them so to speak. James and Sirius are separate people, and there was a war going on, so I imagine Sirius had plenty to do on his own without having to latch on to James for fear of being abandoned. Fighting Voldemort is rather time-consuming. :D

Desraelda
March 23rd, 2005, 2:36 pm
I was mostly kidding about that the post partum depresion ;).
I knew that, but it was just too good to pass up. %)

SitDown
March 23rd, 2005, 3:48 pm
by SIP Dementors might also keep them under control, though we have no canon about that except that when the dementor attacked Sirius and Harry in PoA, Lupin was strangely absent from the scene. Also when Snape was summoning stretchers for Ron, Hermione, Harry, and Sirius after the Dementor attack, Lupin didn't seem to be around all of a sudden.

I don't understand what you mean by Lupin being strangely out of that scene. Are you implying something?

I mean, Lupin was somewhere in the Forbidden Forest, running away, chased by Padfoot, as far as I remember. I don't seee anything weird in this!

by grrliz I'm personally up for discussing it . There's nothing wrong with discussing a less-positive side of Remus J. Lupin (I imagine he's not always sunshine and daisies); the acrimony only seems to creep in when the arguments and discussion surrounding this negative side are flimsy at best, so if the discussion has legitimate basis in canon rather than exists for the sole reason of casting doubt on him for the sake of doing so, I imagine that even the Lupinintes would be able to take it in stride and discuss the issue.

Something I keep thinking about lately is what Sirius says when he visits in the fire in OotP, something along the lines of "You should hear what Remus says about " (I don't have my book so that may not be the exact quote) and his phrasing suggests that it's not exactly nice what Lupin says about Umbridge. Now, obviously Umbridge is the ultimate anti-werewolf biggot so Lupin's take on her is probably entirely appropriate, but at the same time we never hear Lupin say a bad word about anyone, and even in this case it's still hearsay. I'm not suggesting that he didn't say it, but rather that he prefers to keep those negative sentiments either to himself or to share them only with Sirius (or possibly other members of the Order). We're not particularly priveledged to see a more negative side of Lupin -- his own negative side from within his person, rather than a negative side as projected by readers -- but we catch a glimpse of it in Sirius' statement.

I think we should discuss it, too, as long as this will not be an intempt to prove that Lupin is evil or not trustworthy, as grrliz has mentioned,.

As long as we keep to the fact and objectively analyze them and interpret them, I don't think it will be a problem.

But I want to amend your statement, grrliz: I don't think that talking about whether Lupin has accepted his condition and is at peace with it, or on the contrary, is keeping everything inside him until he will break, is a matter of talking about Lupin's darker side. I don't understand why it would be considered like that.

I also don't think that Lupin talking badly about Umbridge means that he has a darker side. I mean, if every person who at some point protests against another person's actions, or comments on them, or talks badly about another person, who has done some pretty bad things to him/her is evil or has a dark side, then the entire population of the Earth would be bad, evil and with a dark side.

I see nothing more in Sirius's comment about Remus than the fact that Remus is human, is normal, is not a saint who turns the other cheek when snapped. He can stand a lot of things and he is civilized and very calm and gentle, but there are times when even calm, gentle Lupin has to protest, otherwise Remus would not be a realistic character!

By that comment I think Jo wanted to:
1. show that Umbridge really was the worst. If even gentle Lupin talked badly about her, then she really must have been awful;
2. give some information about Lupin; he cannot find a job because of Umbridge and measures are taken against werewolves; which may turn out to be important later;
3. remind the readers about the werewolves. if they will play a role in the last two books, it was necessary for Jo to do that and she did it very subtly;
4. show that remus really is human and not too good to be true, like some people say in order to justify their speculations about remus being evil!

[U]About wolf Lupin.

The way I see it, please correct me if I am wrong,

1.when Remus takes the potion he keeps his mind. Therefore he is Lupin. He can recognize his friends, he can think almost like a human and say: Gosh is terrible to have fur especially on such a warm summer day. It’s terribly hot outside!

He probably doesn’t think and judge 100% as a human being, but very close, the way I think animagi do.

He says he is a harmless wolf. A wolf is not harmless. I doubt you can have a wolf curled on your sofa in your living room. Therefore, Lupin’s statement means that he really has a human mind, when he takes the Wolfsbane potion.

2. when Lupin does not take the potion but has his animagi friends with him, he does not have a human mind. He is not Lupin. He does not think. He cannot remember what he did on the night of the full moon. Everything is blurry. But he is not as dangerous. Because having other animals with him is soothing. He has companions, he is not alone, he can play with them.

And, he has the opportunity to go aside, in stead of being trapped inside the Shack, which probably is the most disturbing thing for Lupin.

But, if one of his friends turned human again, Lupin would not recognize him, would try to kill him. The same goes with any other human being, only that Prongs and Padfoot, being large animals, would try to stop him.

This is how I see things!

asrivathsan
March 23rd, 2005, 4:42 pm
When I think about remus, I kind of imagine dumbledore when he was young. Only Dumbledore would have been more powerful. Even he has weaknesses, and some human bad qualities(though it is hard to point out).

How close are Sirius and Remus? I have a feeling that even though marauders were a gang, since james and Sirius "were like twins", Lupin may have felt left out, just a tiny little bit. This may be my opinion but I always have felt the foundation of Lupin's relation with James and Sirius was More pity, less trust. That may have kept a distance. So, maybe Lupin was not verrrry close to sirius and thats probably why no one knows him that well.

Of course, then there is one thing that we have discussed often. Does Lupin have a wife and is Luna his daughter? Then maybe the wife will be the one who will understand him the best.

He probably doesn’t think and judge 100% as a human being, but very close, the way I think animagi do.

He says he is a harmless wolf. A wolf is not harmless. I doubt you can have a wolf curled on your sofa in your living room. Therefore, Lupin’s statement means that he really has a human mind, when he takes the Wolfsbane potion.
This, I find interesting.... I mean, in certain points, for example values and morals, Lupin is the MOST human, or in a way, most mugglish amonst the wizards. But what you say is true.Maybe what he implies is that he is less harmless, not completely harmless. Or so to say, he is not an attacking werewolf.

But how did lupin get "animagus" feelings? He is not an animagus.... And, so do you think, animagus think differently? Just see the list.... james, Sirius, Rita, Minevra... What is the similarity in their thinking? But there is one similarity though.... they are all unique:lol:

PS. one big doubt.... where is whiz? I haven't seen him in this thread...

subtle science
March 23rd, 2005, 4:43 pm
It was the cost of HIV/AIDS drugs that made me wonder if the Wolfsbane Potion by any chance was also costly--since if it were cheap, even if it were difficult to make, it seems that would settle most of the fears about werewolf behavior. However, complex enough to require talent to make it plus expensive equals no readily available...

Here's the bit from OotP about Umbridge:

"I know her by reputation and she's no Death Eater--"
"She's foul enough to be one," said Harry darkly and Ron and Hermione nodded vigorously in agreement.
"Yes, but the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters," said Sirius with a wry smile. "I know she's a nasty piece of work, though--you should hear Remus talk about her."
"Does Lupin know her?" asked Harry quickly, remembering Umbridge's comments about dangerous half-breeds during her first lesson.
"No," said Sirius, "but she drafted a bit of anti-werewolf legislation two years ago that makes it almost impossible for him to get a job."
Harry remembered how much shabbier Lupin looked these days and his dsilike of Umbridge deepened even further (p. 302, US hardcover).

Interesting phrasing--it wasn't a one-time rant from Lupin about Umbridge: it's ongoing, according to Sirius' verb tense. And Sirius "knows" what she's like--from Lupin's assessment. I get the sense that what Lupin has said isn't merely 'not nice,' but scathing. Other interesting bit is the reference to the timing of 'two years ago'--that would've coincided with Lupin's getting the job at Hogwarts: last year was Fake Moody; the year before, Lupin had the job...when he really needed it? An assumption I've always made is that he had difficulty finding a job all along: what if the shabby robes were a fairly recent situation, resulting from Umbridge's campaign? I'd been wondering why Lupin didn't contact Dumbledore before PoA, in the 'missing years' to get help...now, looking at what Sirius is saying here: maybe he didn't need it before. That could add some vitriol to what Lupin says to Sirius.

Lupin's always extremely careful about what he says around the kids--ie, Harry. He edits--a lot. However, I don't see where/why he'd feel the need for such self-censorship around the adults, especially in 12 GP.

WoodenCoyote
March 23rd, 2005, 4:52 pm
2. when Lupin does not take the potion but has his animagi friends with him, he does not have a human mind. He is not Lupin. He does not think. He cannot remember what he did on the night of the full moon. Everything is blurry. But he is not as dangerous. Because having other animals with him is soothing. He has companions, he is not alone, he can play with them.
Remus' behavior [ biting and clawing himself ] when cut off from humans or other animals is, if you think about it, not a sign of savagery or bloodlust at all. Normal animals including cats, dogs, and birds do the same things to themselves when they are ill, distressed, isolated from other animals or lacking mental stimulation. Cats tear out their fur and nip at their skin until they develop sores, birds pull their feathers, dogs chew the pads of their feet raw. Having animal companions and being allowed to roam keeps Remus from being stuck in his own mind and falling into destructive, nervous behavior.

silver ink pot
March 23rd, 2005, 5:00 pm
I don't understand what you mean by Lupin being strangely out of that scene. Are you implying something?

I mean, Lupin was somewhere in the Forbidden Forest, running away, chased by Padfoot, as far as I remember. I don't seee anything weird in this!

No, I meant that what actually happens in the book is that Sirius and Lupin run away, but then Harry runs after them and sees the Dementors flying around Sirius and Harry tries to save him. Lupin isn't there:

PoA, Chapter 20

Black was bleeding; there were gashes across his muzzle and back, but at Harry's words he scrambled up again, and in an instant, the sound of his paws faded to silence as he pounded away across the grounds.

Harry and Hermione dashed over to Ron.

"What did he do to him?" Hermione whispered. Ron's eyes were only half-closed, his mouth hung open; he was definitely alive, they could hear him breathing, but he didn't seem to recognize them.

"I don't know...."

Harry looked desperately around. Black and Lupin both gone... they had no one but Snape for company, still hanging, unconscious, in midair.

"We'd better get them up to the castle and tell someone," said Harry, pushing his hair out of his eyes, trying to think straight. "Come --"

But then, from beyond the range of their vision, they heard a yelping, a whining: a dog in pain....

"Sirius," Harry muttered, staring into the darkness.

He had a moment's indecision, but there was nothing they could do for Ron at the moment, and by the sound of it, Black was in trouble --

Harry set off at a run, Hermione right behind him. The yelping seemed to be coming from the ground near the edge of the lake. They pelted toward it, and Harry, running flat out, felt the cold without realizing what it must mean -

The yelping stopped abruptly. As they reached the lakeshore, they saw why -- Sirius had turned back into a man. He was crouched on all fours, his hands over his head.

'Nooo," he moaned. 'Nooo... please...."

And then Harry saw them. Dementors, at least a hundred of them, gliding in a black mass around the lake toward them. He spun around, the familiar, icy cold penetrating his insides, fog starting to obscure his vision; more were appearing out of the darkness on every side; they were encircling them....

"Herrnione, think of something happy!" Harry yelled, raising his wand, blinking furiously to try and clear his vision, shaking his head to rid it of the faint screaming that had started inside it --

I'm going to live with my godfather. I'm leaving the Dursleys.

He forced himself to think of Black, and only Black, and began to chant: "Expecto patronum! Expecto patronum!"

Black gave a shudder, rolled over, and lay motionless on the ground, pale as death.

My question was whether werewolves are afraid of dementors, and I think that scene shows that perhaps they are, since Lupin is absent from the scene even though there are five humans lying there on the ground, and he would be tempted to bite them or kill them if the dementors weren't there.

The only other strange thing about that scene is that the dementors attack Sirius while he is still a dog, which makes no sense - he has already said that he survived them at Azkaban by turning into a dog, so why is he transformed back into a man, and why would they even be attracted to him? Very odd. :huh:

JKR shows us the scene again, via the time turner and from a different point of view in Chapter 21:

And there were the dementors. They were emerging out of the darkness from every direction, gliding around the edges of the lake.... They were moving away from where Harry stood, to the opposite bank.... He wouldn't have to get near them....
Harry began to run. He had no thought in his head except his father... If it was him... if it really was him... he had to know, had to find out....

The lake was coming nearer and nearer, but there was no sign of anybody. On the opposite bank, he could see tiny glimmers of silver -- his own attempts at a Patronus --
There was a bush at the very edge of the water. Harry threw himself behind it, peering desperately through the leaves. On the opposite bank, the glimmers of silver were suddenly extinguished. A terrified excitement shot through him -- any moment now --

"Come on!" he muttered, staring about. "Where are you? Dad, come on --"

But no one came. Harry raised his head to look at the circle of dementors across the lake. One of them was lowering its hood. It was time for the rescuer to appear -- but no one was coming to help this time --

And then it hit him -- he understood. He hadn't seen his father -- he had seen himself --

Harry flung himself out from behind the bush and pulled out his wand.

"EXPECTO PATRONUM! "he yelled.

And out of the end of his wand burst, not a shapeless cloud of mist, but a blinding, dazzling, silver animal. He screwed up his eyes, trying to see what it was. It looked like a horse. It was galloping silently away from him, across the black surface of the lake. He saw it lower its head and charge at the swarming dementors.... Now it was galloping around and around the black shapes on the ground, and the dementors were falling back, scattering, retreating into the darkness.... They were gone.

The Patronus turned. It was cantering back toward Harry across the still surface of the water. It wasn't a horse. It wasn't a unicorn, either. It was a stag. It was shining brightly as the moon above ... it was coming back to him....

It stopped on the bank. Its hooves made no mark on the soft ground as it stared at Harry with its large, silver eyes. Slowly, it bowed its antlered head. And Harry realized... "Prongs, "he whispered.


. . . "Harry, I can't believe it.... You conjured up a Patronus that drove away all those dementors! That's very, very advanced magic. I knew I could do it this time," said Harry, "because I'd already done it.... Does that make sense?"

"I don't know -- Harry, look at Snape!"

Together they peered around the bush at the other bank. Snape had regained consciousness. He was conjuring stretchers and lifting the limp forms of Harry, Hermione, and Black onto them. A fourth stretcher, no doubt bearing Ron, was already floating at his side. Then, wand held out in front of him, he moved them away toward the castle.

OK - I copied all of that because it is pretty clear that Lupin was absent from that scene. He is in the woods, but why doesn't he approach all the children, Sirius as a man on the stretcher, and Snape, as he takes everyone back to the castle? There is no real reason for Lupin to just lurk in the forest while all that is happening unless, as a werewolf, he is afraid of dementors? That is why I think dementors could be used to control werewolves on Voldemort's side.

Notice how different that scene is in the book, than in the movie. :huh: In the movie, Hermione, Harry, and Buckbeak keep the werewolf busy before Sirius is attacked, and then Buckbeak chases the werewolf away just before the Patronus scene. Notice that the werewolf isn't seen on either side of the lake, though. And in the movie, Snape is seen helping Ron into the hospital room, though not on a stretcher, so how did they avoid the werewolf, unless Lupin has run away from the dementors?


Our of curiosity, what makes you think he's not as well-adjusted as he seems?

I was responding to Jaguarundi's post that said:

Perhaps as a child bitten by a werewolf Lupin was able to more fully adjust to his condition then someone bitten latter in life.

So in my response, I meant that Lupin wasn't as "well-adjusted" to leading life as a werewolf as we might believe. I don't think anyone ever "adjusts" to that sort of transformation, which Lupin says was painful in his early days. I think it is like any medical condition. You might resign yourself to it, but you don't necessarily accept it as easily as people think you do. I hope that is clear now - I wasn't talking about Lupin as a human, but Lupin as a werewolf.

Just thought I'd quote what it says about werewolves in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, although there is not much there that we don't already know from the books.

Thanks Norbertha! :) Not everyone has those books, and that is really where we get most of our true information.

"M.O.M. classification: XXXXX*

*This classification refers, of course, to the werewolf in its transformed state. When there is no full moon, the werewolf is as harmless as any other human. FOr a heartrending account of one wizard's battle with lycanthropy, see the classis Hairy Snout, Human Heart by an anonymous author (Whizz Hard Books, 1975).

See - that is why JKR is such a great writer! It is so wonderful to have a phrase like, "as harmless as any other human." LOL - as if humans are really "harmless." If they are, who is starting these wars all over the planet? Are we supposed to blame all the violence on wizards? I don't think so.

He says he is a harmless wolf. A wolf is not harmless. I doubt you can have a wolf curled on your sofa in your living room. Therefore, Lupin’s statement means that he really has a human mind, when he takes the Wolfsbane potion.

LOL - that is a great point, however I would refer you back to my response to Norbertha's quote. I feel there are as many "harmless humans" as there are "harmless wolves." Sure there are some, but I do believe Lupin has as dark a side as any other character in the books - maybe it is his "human" side that we ought to look at more often. Even Harry has a dark side - he does the Cruciatus on Bella. No one is immune from anger.

There werewolf is found worldwide, though it is believed to have originated in northern Europe. Humans turn into werewolves only when bitten. There is no known cure, though recent developments in potion-making have to a great extent alleviated the worst symptoms. Once a month, at the full moon, the otherwise sane and normal wizard or Muggle afflicted transforms into a murderous beast. Almost uniquely among fantastic creatures, the werewolf actively seeks humans in preference to any other kind of prey."

Now the interesting thing is that JKR has carefully "left out" two things from this entry. How long do werewolves generally live? And how can werewolves be killed? In the history of werewolves, if you read alot of stories or watch the movies, only a few things can kill a werewolf - such as silver bullets or decapitation. Interestingly, JKR has referred to Lupin's "Christian name" being Remus, and I found this on a website about werewolves under the heading of how to "cure" a werewolf:

http://werewolves.monstrous.com/werewolves_powers.htm

Address the Werewolf three times with a Christian name

Of course, the trick is to get close enough to talk to a werewolf without getting bitten, eaten, or killed, and still have him hear his name being called.

clkginny
March 23rd, 2005, 5:01 pm
Harry remembered how much shabbier Lupin looked these days and his dsilike of Umbridge deepened even further (p. 302, US hardcover).

what if the shabby robes were a fairly recent situation, resulting from Umbridge's campaign?

Lupin always looked shabby. I've always thought that it takes a while to get to the shabby look, or that it is a result of not having money to spend on new clothes. If he had been doing well, it should have taken longer for him to get to the shabby look. He probably had trouble getting good paying jobs prior to Umbridge's legislation, it just got a lot more difficult. As far as Lupin being in contact with Dumbledore, pride could have a lot to do with it. Although, I think they were in contact, some, but that Lupin didn't find it neccessary to come around until Dumbledore convinced him (or the situation did) that Lupin was neccessary for Harry to be safe. When the danger was over and Lupin was convinced that now he was a danger, he retreated back into the background. If it wasn't for Sirius and the Order, we wouldn't see much of Lupin now, I think.

grrliz
March 23rd, 2005, 5:42 pm
He says he is a harmless wolf. A wolf is not harmless. I doubt you can have a wolf curled on your sofa in your living room. Therefore, Lupin’s statement means that he really has a human mind, when he takes the Wolfsbane potion.I thought wolves were harmless -- to humans (for the most part). I came across a site dealing with Wolves and Humans (http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/wolves_humans.asp) and they had some interesting stuff on it. (It's in PDF form, so I won't link directly to the article.)Are Wolves Dangerous To Humans?
Two recent reports on wolf-human interactions conclude that attacks by healthy wild wolves do occur but are rare and unusual events despite growing numbers of wolves worldwide. Both reports also state that there has not been a person killed by wolves in North America during the 20th century.

The Fear of Wolves: A Review of Wolf Attacks on Humans, edited by John Linnell, documents worldwide wolf attacks during the past 400 years. The authors reviewed records of wolf-human encounters from a variety of sources and concluded that historically attacks on humans were very rare, and attacks in the 20th century were even rarer. The
report also documents four factors that are associated with wolf attacks. These are rabies (a majority of attacks involved rabid wolves), habituation (many attacks involved wolves that had lost their fear of humans), provocation (wolves were provoked into attack when humans cornered or trapped them or entered their den), and highly modified environments (many attacks occurred in areas where humans have greatly altered the environment). The report also notes that a decrease in the incidence of rabies worldwide has led to a decrease in the number of rabid wolf attacks.

Interesting phrasing--it wasn't a one-time rant from Lupin about Umbridge: it's ongoing, according to Sirius' verb tense. And Sirius "knows" what she's like--from Lupin's assessment. I get the sense that what Lupin has said isn't merely 'not nice,' but scathing.:tu: Scathing is a good word for it. Lots of anger.

Other interesting bit is the reference to the timing of 'two years ago'--that would've coincided with Lupin's getting the job at Hogwarts: last year was Fake Moody; the year before, Lupin had the job...when he really needed it? An assumption I've always made is that he had difficulty finding a job all along: what if the shabby robes were a fairly recent situation, resulting from Umbridge's campaign? I'd been wondering why Lupin didn't contact Dumbledore before PoA, in the 'missing years' to get help...now, looking at what Sirius is saying here: maybe he didn't need it before. That could add some vitriol to what Lupin says to Sirius. That's an interesting take on it :tu:. I once tried to work back in the timeline to see if Umbridge's anti-werewolf legistlation was passed near or after Snape's DADA lesson where he tried to get Lupin's lycanthropy exposed. Hermione figured it out but kept the information to herself; was there another student in another DADA class who might have either a) reasoned it out for themself or b) not realised it but managed to pass on important clues that would allow someone else to figure it out? I mean, all it takes is an inconspicuous owl home to Mum from some student that says stuff like Dear Mum,

Professor Lupin was sick yesterday, and we had Professor Snape as a subsitute instead. It was weird because Hogwarts teachers never miss class. Prof. Snape jumped ahead in the textbook and made us learn about werewolves, but we're not supposed to learn about them until the end of the year! Later on, in Astronomy class, we looked at the full moon and our professor made us lable a map of all the craters on its surface. It was fun!

Love Always, EzekielDear Ezekiel hasn't put two and two together at this point, but Mum might. Mum might let something slip over tea with her delightful neighbour Dolores Jane, and ol' DJ becomes enraged and quickly drafts up legislation. Or something. Clearly loaded with speculation.

The only caveat I have about Umbridge's legislation being the first time Lupin was prevented from acquiring work is that if the legislation was passed some time during PoA, or in the summer prior, etc. I can't imagine Lupin's robes getting that shabby that quickly. I mean, who knows what his previous work entailed, maybe it was rough and tumble and wreaked havoc on one's clothing, but JKR's description suggests (to me at least) that the unemployment had been a lifelong issue for Lupin as an adult. There is the Werewolf registry, and while we don't know who has access to it and who is privy to the identities of registered werewolves in the wizarding world, that alone could make it very difficult for him to get a job prior to PoA. Umbridge's legislation may have been the final nail in the coffin that made Lupin seek Dumbledore out (then again, Dumbledore may have been the one to seek Lupin out, so who knows).

Lupin's always extremely careful about what he says around the kids--ie, Harry. He edits--a lot. However, I don't see where/why he'd feel the need for such self-censorship around the adults, especially in 12 GP.I'm trying to decide how candid I think Lupin would be around the other adults. Lupin is not one to openly complain about anything; he seems very grateful for the little things he does have in life. The scathing quality of the comments he makes to Sirius sound like they're delivered from a very personal place, and are perhaps not complaints in the classic sense of the word, but definitely are grievances on some level, and I can't see Lupin saying such negative things to other Order members in general. I can see him mentioning his distaste about Umbridge, and his disappointment at the fact that legislation of that sort was actually passed, but the anger that comes with the discussions he seems to be having with Sirius about Umbridge seems like something he reserves for Sirius alone. Sirius is the one who knows Lupin best in the Order, they have a very long history, and have been through some very tough times together. Sirius is probably the person who has come closest to understanding what Lupin goes through each moon cycle, having been with him during those transformations countless times, and as such he probably best understands Lupin's anger towards Umbridge. Sirius probably acts as a sounding board for Lupin, someone on whom to let off steam, and then Lupin gives a cleaned up, less emotional version to the Order.

My question was whether werewolves are afraid of dementors, and I think that scene shows that perhaps they are, since Lupin is absent from the scene even though there are five humans lying there on the ground, and he would be tempted to bite them or kill them if the dementors weren't there.Sirius mentions that when he's in his animagus form, his mind is less complicated and the Dementors are less likely to feed on him. Might the same be true of werewolves? Their minds are "less human" during their transformations, which might cause the Dementors to pass over them. Actually, I guess a good question might be: do Dementors feed only on humans? Can they distinguish between a transformed werewolf and an untransformed werewolf?

The only other strange thing about that scene is that the dementors attack Sirius while he is still a dog, which makes no sense - he has already said that he survived them at Azkaban by turning into a dog, so why is he transformed back into a man, and why would they even be attracted to him? Very odd. :huh:No, Sirius transforms back into a human and then the Dementors start circling the lake to come and suck out his soul. There must be some degree of effort made to stay in an animagus transformation, and I wonder if the body's own reaction to pain an injury would be enough to force someone out of their transformation, which could explain why Sirius transformed back: it was too much for his already weakened body to handle both injury and the transformation.

subtle science
March 23rd, 2005, 6:07 pm
When I was looking at the two-year timeline, I was thinking that it actually covered more than that two years. Umbridge drafts the legislation two years ago (and I think it has to predate half-way through the school year; I don't think that one can be laid at Snape's door: that turns two years into a year and a half ago). It generally takes a bit to get to the point that one can draft and pass legislation: this had to be an issue that was in the wind earlier than the point when it became de facto. Umbridge has the advantage that most wizards are prejudiced against werewolves, but, still, she must convince the majority to vote for legislated biogtry--to make it a law against hiring werewolves, and not to leave it up to individual's own biases.

I think what I see is that gets progressively more and more difficult for Lupin to find work--not that it started off as impossible--and culminates with the legislation right before he gets the call from Dumbledore...which also gives Dumbledore a reason to call on Lupin, in addition to protecting Harry....A steady decline in fortunes, so to speak, and increasing shabbiness. It could also explain the battered suitcase: it may have been Lupin's from the start and reflect the downward spiral he's experienced.

clkginny
March 23rd, 2005, 6:58 pm
Thank-you Subtle, that makes more sense now.

About Lupin being in contact with Dumbledore: you don't think that perhaps he was, but given the POV of the books, we never saw it?

grrliz
March 23rd, 2005, 7:03 pm
When I was looking at the two-year timeline, I was thinking that it actually covered more than that two years. Umbridge drafts the legislation two years ago (and I think it has to predate half-way through the school year; I don't think that one can be laid at Snape's door: that turns two years into a year and a half ago). It generally takes a bit to get to the point that one can draft and pass legislation: this had to be an issue that was in the wind earlier than the point when it became de facto. Umbridge has the advantage that most wizards are prejudiced against werewolves, but, still, she must convince the majority to vote for legislated biogtry--to make it a law against hiring werewolves, and not to leave it up to individual's own biases. I didn't mean to imply that somehow Snape set the ball rolling for the legislation, more that Umbridge might have gotten wind that there was a werewolf teaching at Hogwarts (inadvertedly through Snape's lesson) and tried to do something about it by drafting legislation to prevent Lupin returning to Hogwarts the year after.

atherella
March 23rd, 2005, 7:34 pm
No, Sirius transforms back into a human and then the Dementors start circling the lake to come and suck out his soul. There must be some degree of effort made to stay in an animagus transformation, and I wonder if the body's own reaction to pain an injury would be enough to force someone out of their transformation, which could explain why Sirius transformed back: it was too much for his already weakened body to handle both injury and the transformation.

That part of the story always baffled me. Why would Sirius have transformed back into wizard form knowing there were dementors all over Hogwarts grounds just waiting to get ahold of him? What grrliz posted in the most plausible explaination I've heard for why Sirius may have transformed back.

I wonder though, if there is an effort to stay in one's animagus form how PP was able to stay as a rat for so many years? We know that he was "ill" after returning from Egypt, yet he still managed to stay in his rat form.

Anyhow, thanks to everyone for the warm welcomes back to the thread. I've really missed the great discussions in here. Hopefully I'll be well enough now to keep up with the convos. :)

Chievrefueil
March 23rd, 2005, 7:39 pm
I know that, at the pharmacy school, we did get loads and loads of hours of chemistry lab ; including a teacher, who was.. Let's say that compared to him, Snape /is/ already a pink fluffly bunny!:lol: In OotP, I realized how much Potions class reminded me of the Organic Chemistry Lab. :grumble: As long as we keep to the fact and objectively analyze them and interpret them, I don't think it will be a problem.Isn’t interpretation subjective, by definition? ;) But I want to amend your statement, grrliz: I don't think that talking about whether Lupin has accepted his condition and is at peace with it, or on the contrary, is keeping everything inside him until he will break, is a matter of talking about Lupin's darker side. I don't understand why it would be considered like that.

I also don't think that Lupin talking badly about Umbridge means that he has a darker side. I mean, if every person who at some point protests against another person's actions, or comments on them, or talks badly about another person, who has done some pretty bad things to him/her is evil or has a dark side, then the entire population of the Earth would be bad, evil and with a dark side.To be fair, I don’t believe grrliz referred to Lupin’s “dark side,” she referred to his “less positive” side. This could be interpreted to refer to either his own personality (negative aspects of his personality) or his outlook on the world (his realization that not everything is always good). I’m not sure how grrliz meant her comment, but would be interested to hear.

Personally, I believe that everyone does have negative aspects to their personality and does, at times, have a negative outlook on the world. That does not make everyone bad or evil, though. I’ve known people with a very “Pollyanna-ish” worldview and they drive me crazy—because everything doesn’t always have to be beautiful and good. Lupin having a negative side—showing his distaste for Umbridge, for example—makes him believable and human. It adds depth to his character that would not be there otherwise. when Lupin does not take the potion but has his animagi friends with him, he does not have a human mind. He is not Lupin. He does not think. He cannot remember what he did on the night of the full moon. Everything is blurry. But he is not as dangerous. Because having other animals with him is soothing. He has companions, he is not alone, he can play with them.I thought of something as I was reading this. If Lupin can’t remember his nights as a werewolf during the full moon, how does he know that it was better with the rest of the Marauders with him? :huh: I mean, in certain points, for example values and morals, Lupin is the MOST human, or in a way, most mugglish amonst the wizards.I have no idea what you mean by this. All the characters seem very human to me—except Voldemort, who is a caricature. Also, Lupin is a skilled wizard, so how would he be more “mugglish” than, say, Neville? :huh: Remus' behavior [ biting and clawing himself ] when cut off from humans or other animals is, if you think about it, not a sign of savagery or bloodlust at all. Normal animals including cats, dogs, and birds do the same things to themselves when they are ill, distressed, isolated from other animals or lacking mental stimulation. Cats tear out their fur and nip at their skin until they develop sores, birds pull their feathers, dogs chew the pads of their feet raw. Having animal companions and being allowed to roam keeps Remus from being stuck in his own mind and falling into destructive, nervous behavior.I don’t have my book to look this up now, but I remember Lupin saying specifically that he bit and scratched himself because of his desire to bite humans, who were unavailable to bite in the Shrieking Shack. I think what I see is that gets progressively more and more difficult for Lupin to find work--not that it started off as impossible--and culminates with the legislation right before he gets the call from Dumbledore...which also gives Dumbledore a reason to call on Lupin, in addition to protecting Harry....A steady decline in fortunes, so to speak, and increasing shabbiness. It could also explain the battered suitcase: it may have been Lupin's from the start and reflect the downward spiral he's experienced.This makes sense to me—there has been a gradual “containment” of werewolves, which culminates in Umbridge’s anti-werewolf legislation.

The other possibility regarding Lupin’s employability is that, by taking the Wolfsbane Potion, he would be too sick to work for 7 out of every 28 days. This makes him unreliable and less employable. No, Sirius transforms back into a human and then the Dementors start circling the lake to come and suck out his soul. There must be some degree of effort made to stay in an animagus transformation, and I wonder if the body's own reaction to pain an injury would be enough to force someone out of their transformation, which could explain why Sirius transformed back: it was too much for his already weakened body to handle both injury and the transformation.Okay, so here’s my new dilemma over this. If Sirius turned back into himself before the Dementors arrived, why didn’t Lupin kill him? What drove Lupin away?

atherella
March 23rd, 2005, 7:57 pm
Isn’t interpretation subjective, by definition? ;)

Right you are. :)


RE - Discussing "less than positive aspects of Lupin"
We shouldn't have any problems discussing less than positive aspects of Lupin's character. I think, or I should say, I'd hope that after all these versions of this thread, that we all realize that no one is out to purposely infuriate others, offend anyone else, etc. We may not always agree with each other, and that is ok. As long as we all keep in mind to be respectful of other people's opinions, there shouldn't be an issue. Everyone is entitled to believe whatever s/he chooses, and it is up to us to all respect that. It is more than likely that there will be plenty of times that other people here do not agree with what we write, so we should treat opposing opinions in the way we'd want ours handled. :)


Personally, I believe that everyone does have negative aspects to their personality and does, at times, have a negative outlook on the world. That does not make everyone bad or evil, though. I’ve known people with a very “Pollyanna-ish” worldview and they drive me crazy—because everything doesn’t always have to be beautiful and good. Lupin having a negative side—showing his distaste for Umbridge, for example—makes him believable and human. It adds depth to his character that would not be there otherwise.

I wholeheartedly agree. I think we'd all be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't have a dark side. I think maybe the problem here lays in the interpretation of "dark side". It isn't a criticism of Lupin to suggest he has a dark side. :)

I thought of something as I was reading this. If Lupin can’t remember his nights as a werewolf during the full moon, how does he know that it was better with the rest of the Marauders with him? :huh:

Good question. Maybe the other marauders suggest that to him?

clkginny
March 23rd, 2005, 8:00 pm
Okay, so here’s my new dilemma over this. If Sirius turned back into himself before the Dementors arrived, why didn’t Lupin kill him? What drove Lupin away?

He might have been injured enough in his fight with Sirius to decide he should seek other hunting. Assuming he is operating solely on instinct, he wouldn't realize that Sirius will revert to human form. He is seeking human prey, not a fight with a dog, so he could have (instinctually) decided to look for easier prey. As to why he didn't come back, he might not have still been close enough to realize that his prey was now subdued.

subtle science
March 23rd, 2005, 8:06 pm
Here's the quote from PoA:

"I was separated from humans to bite, so I bit and scratched myself instead" (p. 354, US paper).

Thre's also this interesting comment:

"Under their influence, I became less dangerous. My body was still wolfish, but my mind seemed to become less so while I was with them" (p. 355).

It seems like a milder effect of the Wolfsbane Potion, to have the other human-animals with him. Although it is also noteworthy that, in the rest of what Lupin says, he doesn't give any indication that he clearly remembers what would go on while he was transformed. He says they had near-misses and laughed about them later, but he doesn't indicate that he was wholly aware of what they did.

Random thought alert: while I was reading the posts regarding the dementors...I was thinking about Lupin's ability to produce a Patronus. Now, he is a DADA professor, so I suppose it could just be part and parcel of that specialty. However, a rather big deal is made in the books--by Lupin and others--about how difficult and advanced the Patronus charm is to perform. But Lupin knows how to do it, and does it effortlessly. I have no particular point to make with this random firing--just noting that it's a subtle way for JKR to establish Lupin's power (on his own, not in combination with the Marauders or anything else).

Wandering Bard
March 23rd, 2005, 8:31 pm
Random thought alert: while I was reading the posts regarding the dementors...I was thinking about Lupin's ability to produce a Patronus. Now, he is a DADA professor, so I suppose it could just be part and parcel of that specialty. However, a rather big deal is made in the books--by Lupin and others--about how difficult and advanced the Patronus charm is to perform. But Lupin knows how to do it, and does it effortlessly. I have no particular point to make with this random firing--just noting that it's a subtle way for JKR to establish Lupin's power (on his own, not in combination with the Marauders or anything else).

Lupin's patronus was formless though. It can't be that difficult to perform, because all the DA members managed it, eventually.

clkginny
March 23rd, 2005, 8:41 pm
Lupin's patronus was formless though. It can't be that difficult to perform, because all the DA members managed it, eventually.

Well then, why does everyone make such a big deal over the fact that Harry can produce a Patronus? That was still going on in OoTP. Perhaps that was done to show Harry's skill at DADA teaching rather than to render the Patronus as a less than impressive feat.

grrliz
March 23rd, 2005, 9:14 pm
I wonder though, if there is an effort to stay in one's animagus form how PP was able to stay as a rat for so many years? We know that he was "ill" after returning from Egypt, yet he still managed to stay in his rat form. That's cause Peter's a very powerful wizard ;). Seriously though, I'm not sure that Peter's illness is really on par with the injuries Sirius sustained. Sirius has been attacked by a werewolf; Scabbers is suffering from a parituclarly bad case of the nerves. I think at some point Crookshanks attacks Scabbers, which might be an equivalent; do we ever actually see Scabbers getting attacked by anyone/thing? I can't remember. If we don't, it might be interesting if there was a "healing" period where Peter woudl have to briefly transform back if his injuries were critical enough.

To be fair, I don’t believe grrliz referred to Lupin’s “dark side,” she referred to his “less positive” side. This could be interpreted to refer to either his own personality (negative aspects of his personality) or his outlook on the world (his realization that not everything is always good). I’m not sure how grrliz meant her comment, but would be interested to hear. I meant it pretty much at face value as an instance where Lupin expresses some negative emotions. Everyone has stuff that makes them angry, and Lupin is no different. The thing is that because we see him through Harry, we only ever see his rather positive side: Lupin is always described as talking mildly or pleasantly; we never see Lupin talking angrily (I think the worst his speech has been described as is "sharp"). What I mentioned earlier was that, at least around Sirius, Lupin does open up and let those negative feelings fly. This has nothing to do with having a "dark side" and everything to do with being a normal person with a normal range of emotions.

Okay, so here’s my new dilemma over this. If Sirius turned back into himself before the Dementors arrived, why didn’t Lupin kill him? What drove Lupin away?In the book, after Siriusdog's and Lupinwolf's fight, Lupinwolf inexplicably runs into the forest on his own accord (unlike in the movie where Hermione has to do the werewolf call to get him away from Harry), before the Dementors show up. Then Siriusdog tries to run after Peter, but collapses by the lake due to his injuries. I'm not sure what Lupin is doing in the forest at that time (beyond providing a reason why he won't be able to back up Sirius' story and thus Sirius' name can't be cleared ;)), but the fact that he fled their on his own volition before encountering any Dementors suggests either something else lured him there or that he thought he couldn't win his fight with Siriusdog. He's not going to double back to attack Sirius if he's been lured into the forest or if he's scared of Siriusdog. (If that makes any sense.)

Lupin's patronus was formless though. It can't be that difficult to perform, because all the DA members managed it, eventually.I don't think all the DA members managed it; I thought it was only Hermione and Cho? (I don't have my book, I could be wrong.)

HermioneLuna
March 23rd, 2005, 9:19 pm
Lupin's patronus was formless though. It can't be that difficult to perform, because all the DA members managed it, eventually.

All the members of Dumbledore's Army had to do was focus on a happy memory to conjure the patronus. Harry managed it in the face of hundreds of Dementors, each one attempting to suck every happy memory from him. Additionally, Harry conjured his first patronus at his first lesson. How long did it take the DA members?

About Lupin's patronus being formless: There was only one dementor on the train to Hogwarts. It wasn't necessary for some huge bear to charge it down. All that was needed was a strong enough patronus to drive the dementor away. Also, simply because Ron and Hermione never mention the form of Lupin's patronus does not mean that his patronus takes no form.

subtle science
March 23rd, 2005, 9:32 pm
Blame it on Hermione for being vague in PoA: "Lupin muttered something, and a silvery thing shot out of his wand at it" (p. 85, US paper) is her description to Harry about what Lupin did.

Later, Lupin tells Harry "that the charm might be too advanced for you. Many qualified wizards have difficulty with it" (p. 237) as well as "This charm is ridiculously advanced" (p. 241).

In OotP, Madam Bones concludes her questioning of Harry's ability to produce a Patronus by saying, "Impressive....a true Patronus at that age...very impressive indeed" (p. 141, US hardcover) and, during Harry's OWLS, Professor Tofty gives him a bonus point for conjuring the Patronus, after saying, "I heard from my dear friend Tiberius Ogden, that you can produce a Patronus" and, when Harry does, "clapped his veined and knotted hands enthusiastically" (p. 714).

I'll go with clkginny on this one: I think we're being told that A. Harry taught the DA class exceptionally well--and B. Harry is extremely powerful.

Lupin's Patronus isn't shapeless--just undescribed by Hermione. It seems, from what Lupin says and how the other wizards react, that the Patronus Charm takes certain skill and power that not everybody can master. Harry is performing it at an unusually young age; Lupin points out that qualified wizards can't necessarily do it (note that he doesn't say any of this as patting himself on the back for being able to do it--can you imagine Lockhart's version of this???). I think it falls into the same category as Snape's potion-making skills: Lupin reveals a very advanced skill level, just as his later comments about Snape and the Wolfsbane Potion point out SNape's talent. In theory, anyone can do these things; in practice, not everybody's got the level of skill and/or power.

SitDown
March 23rd, 2005, 9:42 pm
by Chevrefueil Isn’t interpretation subjective, by definition?

well yes, of course. But there are two possibilities:
1. we express our opinions, find arguments to back up these opinions and counterarguments against other people opinions and we agree when there are things to agree on;

2. we have no interest whatsoever to let ourselves convinced by other people's opinion on some aspects. In this case there won't be agreement on anything and people will try to find counterarguments just to contradict, not really listening to anybody else.

what i meant by being objective was to use possibility 1. To try to listen to other people and analyze as objective as possible. Of course that there will always be some subjectivity.

by Chevrefueil To be fair, I don’t believe grrliz referred to Lupin’s “dark side,” she referred to his “less positive” side. This could be interpreted to refer to either his own personality (negative aspects of his personality) or his outlook on the world (his realization that not everything is always good). I’m not sure how grrliz meant her comment, but would be interested to hear.

Personally, I believe that everyone does have negative aspects to their personality and does, at times, have a negative outlook on the world. That does not make everyone bad or evil, though. I’ve known people with a very “Pollyanna-ish” worldview and they drive me crazy—because everything doesn’t always have to be beautiful and good. Lupin having a negative side—showing his distaste for Umbridge, for example—makes him believable and human. It adds depth to his character that would not be there otherwise.

When I said that talking about the way Lupin refers to Umbridge and about whether he has come to terms with his condition is not talking about his dark side, as these are not dark aspects, I didn't want to say that Lupin does not have a dark side. We all have it, but normally it does not express itself too much, just like in lupin's case.

Nor did I want to criticize grrliz. I just wanted to say that i do not consider Lupin talking badly about Umbridge as being part of his dark side. It is only something very normal, not a manifestation of something dark!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiev
I thought of something as I was reading this. If Lupin can’t remember his nights as a werewolf during the full moon, how does he know that it was better with the rest of the Marauders with him?


Good question. Maybe the other marauders suggest that to him?

Because he was barely injured in the morning. He didn't bit himself and scratch himself as he did when he was alone. And also, he didn't have such murderous thoughts and he didn't experience all the rage and violence he did when he was alone, so maybe even mentally he woke up much more relax after the nights of the full moon spent in the company of his friends!

Edit:

by subtle science Lupin's Patronus isn't shapeless--just undescribed by Hermione. It seems, from what Lupin says and how the other wizards react, that the Patronus Charm takes certain skill and power that not everybody can master. Harry is performing it at an unusually young age; Lupin points out that qualified wizards can't necessarily do it (note that he doesn't say any of this as patting himself on the back for being able to do it--can you imagine Lockhart's version of this???). I think it falls into the same category as Snape's potion-making skills: Lupin reveals a very advanced skill level, just as his later comments about Snape and the Wolfsbane Potion point out SNape's talent. In theory, anyone can do these things; in practice, not everybody's got the level of skill and/or power.

I agree. The question is how powerful is Lupin?
We may never find out, as it is not importsnt for the plot, or we may find out as it is very relevant for the plot and Jo has hinted at Lupin's powers all along.

We have the Patronus. We have the fact that in the train scene in POA Lupin seems to do controlled wandless magic. We have the fact that he remains unharmed in MOM, whereas all the others have been injured. We have the clues that he is a Legilimens.

So how powerful exactly? If we take his word, we will have to agree that he is an idiot! He always underestimates his skills!

grrliz
March 23rd, 2005, 9:46 pm
(note that he doesn't say any of this as patting himself on the back for being able to do it--can you imagine Lockhart's version of this???)I can and I am!

Lockhart: Harry, Harry, Harry, can you think of any better way of spending an evening than taking Patronus lessons from me? I think not. Now, this is straight from my fourth book, Duel with a Dementor, and the incantation is 'expecto patronum.' Got that? Now think of your happiest memory -- your first meeting with me at Flourish and Blotts! Or -- no, wait! -- finding out I would be your new Defense Against the Dark Arts professor! So many happy memories to choose from, Harry, you should have no problems with this!
Harry: *blinks*
Lockhart: Er, yes. Wand at the ready!

Wow, I think I may secretly be a Lockhart fangirl. :blush:

HermioneLuna
March 23rd, 2005, 9:51 pm
How close are Sirius and Remus? I have a feeling that even though marauders were a gang, since james and Sirius "were like twins", Lupin may have felt left out, just a tiny little bit. This may be my opinion but I always have felt the foundation of Lupin's relation with James and Sirius was More pity, less trust. That may have kept a distance. So, maybe Lupin was not verrrry close to sirius and thats probably why no one knows him that well.

I disagree. While it seems clear that James and Sirius were the most extroverted of the foursome, I don't think they were friends with Lupin because they pitied him. The four of them were friends before James, Sirius, and Peter ever even knew about Lupin's condition. After they discovered it, they went to great lengths to be there for their friend. I can't see James and Sirius investing valuable pranking time in someone they merely pitied. Nor can I see them forming such a close bond with someone they only hung around because of pity.

Even in Snape's Worst Memory, were Lupin was very much in the background compared to James and Sirius, they included him when they could have ignored him. What I mean is, James asked Lupin what he thought of the werewolf question and Lupin made a joke about it. James could well have ignored that completely.

James and Sirius could have been friends with anyone they chose. Why befriend a shy, introverted werewolf unless they really cared about him and considered him a friend?

RemusLupinFan
March 23rd, 2005, 10:03 pm
I apologize, this is going to be a long post. :blush:
Perhaps he is the "Dobby" of werewolves...the freak of the breed so to speak.I agree completely with this theory- I’ve actually had similar thoughts myself about this. I do believe that Lupin is much more careful and conscientious about his condition than other werewolves. The reasons you’ve given for this theory make a lot of sense. :tu:

Speaking of roaming outside the boundaries, how about Malfoy's fear in PS/SS that detention in the Forbidden Forest will bring them into contact with werewolves?

"The forest?" he repeated, and he didn't sound quite as cool as usual. "We can't go in there at night--there's all sorts of things in there--werewolves, I heard."
Neville clutched the sleeve of Harry's robe and made a choking sound.
"That's your problem, isn't it?" said Filch, his vocie cracking with glee. "Should've thought of them werewolves before you got into trouble, shouldn't you?" (p. 249, US paper)I wonder if this is another one of these "let's make up stuff about werewolves to scare the students" type of things. Tom Riddle says that he caught Hagrid with werewolf cubs, when, of course, there are no such thing. Are there really werewolves in the Forest, and if so, does that mean there are just random people running around and living in there when there's not a full moon? My own feeling is that there aren't actually werewolves in there, and that it's another myth handed down to keep students out of the Forest, just as the Shrieking Shack is said to be haunted to keep students from going there as well. I agree, I don’t believe there really are werewolves running rampant in the Forbidden Forest. This is most likely a rumor that started from someone who may have heard howling and just assumed it was a werewolf. The Forest is home to so many different creatures that there must be at least a few that sound like a werewolf.

While I think that Lupin is pretty well adjusted, I doubt that he has escaped repurcussions (his own mental/physical health) to the pressure of knowing he is a monster once or twice a month, let alone the prejudices of those who hate werewolves.I think we’ve seen evidence that Lupin is as well-adjusted to his condition as one can be. Despite his slip-up in PoA, he has been quite conscientious about keeping his condition under control. About roaming with the Marauders in his schoolboy days, I don’t believe he would have done it if he didn’t (a) trust his friends to protect people from him and (b) trust that his friends wouldn’t contract lycanthropy if he bit them (which we know they wouldn’t have because werewolves are only a danger to people and not animals).

For sure I think Lupin does deal with a lot of pressure from the prejudice he endures- it would be unrealistic to think that Lupin isn’t upset or affected by these anti-werewolf sentiments.

By that comment I think Jo wanted to:
1. show that Umbridge really was the worst. If even gentle Lupin talked badly about her, then she really must have been awful;
2. give some information about Lupin; he cannot find a job because of Umbridge and measures are taken against werewolves; which may turn out to be important later;
3. remind the readers about the werewolves. if they will play a role in the last two books, it was necessary for Jo to do that and she did it very subtly;
4. show that remus really is human and not too good to be true, like some people say in order to justify their speculations about remus being evil!I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to hear what Remus said about Umbridge. :evil: I agree with the reasons for this statement that Sirius makes about Lupin, and in addition, I think it’s also meant to show us that Lupin doesn’t take prejudice toward people with his condition passively; he isn’t the kind of person who merely accepts the unjust things people say and do against werewolves. It also makes Harry’s dislike of Umbridge deepen, because he thinks of how much worse Lupin looks and he feels even more resentment against Umbridge. This deepening dislike and resentment probably gave Harry even more reason to start the DA club. Also, the statement could be meant to show us that Lupin’s and Sirius’ relationship as old friends is back to normal, i.e., that feels uninhibited and free to speak his mind around Sirius.

This may be my opinion but I always have felt the foundation of Lupin's relation with James and Sirius was More pity, less trust. That may have kept a distance. So, maybe Lupin was not verrrry close to sirius and thats probably why no one knows him that well.I disagree- I see Remus as being quite central to the friendship. After all, if the relationship wasn’t based on trust and acceptance, I doubt the Marauders would have become animagi for him. Also, the way the Marauders plan their activities around the full moon is a testament to how central Lupin was within the friendship- the Marauders are very much attuned to Remus' condition:
“I’m bored,” said Sirius. “Wish it was full moon.”This comment from Sirius demonstrates the fact that romping the grounds with Remus is one of his highest priorities, that it is likely the most fun thing to do. Remus' centrality within the Marauders is also demonstrated by their desire to help him more easily manage his condition in the first place. Such a difficult (not to mention illegal) task was clearly done out of a strong bond of friendship.

I definitely agree that Lupin was probably more individualistic while James and Sirius were nearly inseparable, as McGonagall says. So while Lupin may not have hung around with them all the time and while he didn’t worship Sirius’ and James’ shadow like Peter did, I do believe he was quite close to James and Sirius (and Peter) without being a shadow for either one of them.

Sirius mentions that when he's in his animagus form, his mind is less complicated and the Dementors are less likely to feed on him. Might the same be true of werewolves? Their minds are "less human" during their transformations, which might cause the Dementors to pass over them. Actually, I guess a good question might be: do Dementors feed only on humans? Can they distinguish between a transformed werewolf and an untransformed werewolf?:tu: This is an interesting question. I'm not sure Dementors would go after werewolves because their minds are indeed "less human". In fact, I would argue that their minds are even less human than an Animagus because they don't have any measure of control over their actions. In contrast, an Animagus can choose when s/he want to transform back and forth. Not so with a werewolf. Plus, it would seem that werewolves have incredibly strong instincts to harm humans. As was mentioned earlier, with the presence of a human, I'm sure that the presence of the Animagi-Marauders wouldn't have made a difference.

I thought of something as I was reading this. If Lupin can’t remember his nights as a werewolf during the full moon, how does he know that it was better with the rest of the Marauders with him? I don't think he remembers much, but I do think he remembers at least something from his transformations. At the end of PoA, Hagrid says, “I was worried this mornin’, mind…thought he mighta met Professor Lupin on the grounds, but Lupin says he never ate anythin’ las’ night….” This implies that Lupin remembered at least something from his transformation, and he wasn't in the company of the Marauders. So I imagine he does indeed remember bits and pieces of the events of his transformations.

Random thought alert: while I was reading the posts regarding the dementors...I was thinking about Lupin's ability to produce a Patronus. Now, he is a DADA professor, so I suppose it could just be part and parcel of that specialty. However, a rather big deal is made in the books--by Lupin and others--about how difficult and advanced the Patronus charm is to perform. But Lupin knows how to do it, and does it effortlessly. I have no particular point to make with this random firing--just noting that it's a subtle way for JKR to establish Lupin's power (on his own, not in combination with the Marauders or anything else).You are absolutely right. Hermione explains that Lupin mutters something and a silvery thing shoots out of his wand. The fact that Lupin mutters the spell as opposed to shouting it or saying it loud and clear. We know this is in part due to the plot reason of keeping the spell unknown until Lupin is able to teach Harry the Patronus, but I also think this speaks to Lupin’s power and skill with magic. I think it shows how good Remus has gotten at banishing his demons that he doesn’t have to shout the spell, he can just mutter it and it has the desired effect. Of course, it was only one dementor, so I think that had something to do with the fact that he was able to mutter the spell and banish the dementor relatively easily.

I also think it’s highly possible that Remus was able to get by on using just an incomplete Patronus, especially since he was so exhausted beforehand, since there was only one dementor, and since I believe he is quite a powerful wizard. But that doesn't mean it's easy to do this, nor does it mean that Lupin can't produce a corporeal patronus. Lupin conjuring an incomplete Patronus actually fits quite well with his personality in that he’s not one to be overly show-offy (if that’s even a word) like Lockhart. Those two are in direct contrast, as their personalities quite clearly show. Therefore, it makes a lot of sense for Lupin not to have used a corporeal Patronus to get rid of one dementor, because this would have drawn a lot more (perhaps unwanted) attention to himself than if he just had a nondescript “silvery thing” shoot out of his wand. Nevertheless, I’d still wager that he could perform a corporeal Patronus if the need arose.

On the note of Lupin's hidden power, I'd also offer the fact that he performs wandless magic on the train in PoA, and the fact that he is the only uninjured person besides Dumbledore after the DoM battle in OotP. :eyebrows:

I meant it pretty much at face value as an instance where Lupin expresses some negative emotions. Everyone has stuff that makes them angry, and Lupin is no different. The thing is that because we see him through Harry, we only ever see his rather positive side: Lupin is always described as talking mildly or pleasantly; we never see Lupin talking angrily (I think the worst his speech has been described as is "sharp"). What I mentioned earlier was that, at least around Sirius, Lupin does open up and let those negative feelings fly. This has nothing to do with having a "dark side" and everything to do with being a normal person with a normal range of emotions. :tu: This is completely true- it would be unrealistic, as I mentioned above, for Remus not to be angry with Umbridge after what she’s doing to prevent werewolves from getting a job and for perpetuating prejudiced feelings.

subtle science
March 23rd, 2005, 10:09 pm
Hermione did specify that Lupin used his wand to conjure a Patronus.

And, according to "The Centaur and the Sneak," only Cho ("swan-shaped"--not definite in form) and Hermione ("shining silver otter") produced recognizable figures. Lavendar managed "puffs of silver vapor"; Neville, "feeble wisps of silver smoke"; and Seamus says his "was definietly something hairy" (pp. 605-606, US hardcover).

grrliz--Okay; I'm not so frightened by your suggesting you're a Lockhart fangirl as I am by your dead-on Lockhart dialogue! : ) !

I doubt Lupin has a 'dark side'; I'd prefer to leave that sort of description to apply to characters like Fake Moody and Umbridge, who have dangerous personas lurking under their surfaces. I just don't see Lupin as having a darkness to him--not like Snape, for instance, who surely must've come very close to, if not actually performed, something dark indeed during his DE days and who seems to carry that guilt with him. However, Lupin is a very repressed person: there's a lot bottled up there. Some of it is Harry Vision; some of it is Lupin's tendency to self censor in front of kids. Sirius' report of Lupin's anger at Umbridge is one of the few (only?) references to Lupin's anger, other than some mentions of his speaking sharply. Nobody can be a perfect saint. I'm interested in scenes that may imply more than the surface calm in Lupin: how 'adjusted' (or resigned, as was said earlier) to his condition is he? when do we see him annoyed, or is he nearly always so kind and understanding? Digging time.

silver ink pot
March 23rd, 2005, 10:12 pm
Personally, I believe that everyone does have negative aspects to their personality and does, at times, have a negative outlook on the world. That does not make everyone bad or evil, though. I’ve known people with a very “Pollyanna-ish” worldview and they drive me crazy—because everything doesn’t always have to be beautiful and good. Lupin having a negative side—showing his distaste for Umbridge, for example—makes him believable and human. It adds depth to his character that would not be there otherwise.

If I did say "dark side," or maybe I should say "when I use the phrase 'dark side,'" I mean anything "less positive" that they see in Lupin or any character - even one of the children. And I don't mean when Hermione criticizes Sirius or takes up for Snape, lol. :evil: That only shows her logical or cautious side, but not her "negative aspect" side. The most negative thing I could say about Hermione is that she keeps secrets and she is really good at jinxes, such as the one she put on Marietta. And she was pretty good at lying to Umbridge, which is a good trait for an actress or a spy or a soldier, lol.

James, Sirius, and Peter are all discussed here according to their positive and negative traits, and there seem to be many on both sides of the spectrum. Lupin can't really be left out of that, because he is a major character and one of the Marauders, no matter how "gentle" he is in general. "General Gentle" - just kidding. :p

At any rate, I will try to be graciously "less positive" - thank you, Atherella. And I will try to refrain from mentioning the "dark side" as often as possible. :)


I thought of something as I was reading this.
If Lupin can’t remember his nights as a werewolf during the full moon, how does he know that it was better with the rest of the Marauders with him?

There is also the question of memory in PoA, when Hagrid says that Lupin told him he "didn't eat anything last night" in his rampage. How does Lupin know that? Is he more in control as a werewolf as a result of being a Marauder all those years? Is he "smarter than the average werewolf?" Super Werewolf?

The other possibility regarding Lupin’s employability is that, by taking the Wolfsbane Potion, he would be too sick to work for 7 out of every 28 days. This makes him unreliable and less employable.

:tu: Good point, and one that has parallels in the muggle world.

Okay, so here’s my new dilemma over this. If Sirius turned back into himself before the Dementors arrived, why didn’t Lupin kill him? What drove Lupin away?

I think this has to be a plot point. Whatever happens in that scene, Harry hears a "yelp" of a dog in pain. Sirius has already been hurt and scratched by Lupinwolf. Did Lupin hurt him again and accidentally make him transform back to a man, as Grrliz suggests? The problem is the Dementors are looking for Sirius Black - that is the canon. Yet we know the Dementors are also attracted to Harry for unknown reasons - that is canon, too. Snape, Ron, and Hermione are out on the grounds, yet no dementors come near them. And they don't attack Harry this time, but Sirius as a dog - which doesn't fit with what Sirius himself says in the Shrieking Shack about dementors not paying attention to animals. I wonder, though, if Lupin drew their attention first? If Dementors are attracted to Werewolves, and Sirius just happened to be there, Lupin might have the strength to run away, but the numbers of Dementors overpowered Sirius, who was thinking like a human even while he was a dog? Gosh - there are so many ways to interpret that!

I'm really starting to wonder, with all this groundwork about werewolves that has been laid in Fantastic Beasts and in PoA, whether JKR has been saving them for Book 6 or 7? If Lupin was the half-blood Prince, maybe it means that he is Prince of the Werewolves? :huh:

RemusLupinFan
March 23rd, 2005, 10:24 pm
While it seems clear that James and Sirius were the most extroverted of the foursome, I don't think they were friends with Lupin because they pitied him. The four of them were friends before James, Sirius, and Peter ever even knew about Lupin's condition. After they discovered it, they went to great lengths to be there for their friend. I can't see James and Sirius investing valuable pranking time in someone they merely pitied. Nor can I see them forming such a close bond with someone they only hung around because of pity. Also to add onto this, if Sirius' and James' friendship was based on more on pity and less on trust, I don't believe they would have seen him as an equal, and we do indeed see evidence that they viewed Remus as being equal to them, as the three of them joke about the five signs of the werewolf while in contrast, they call Peter "thick" for not remembering them.

Also, I don't think Lupin would have been able to make James and Sirius feel ashamed of themselves. I don't think they would have 1) listened to him when he tried to tell them they were out of line or 2) put much stock in his opinions.

However, Lupin is a very repressed person: there's a lot bottled up there. Definitely- I think this actually stems from Lupin's condition and who Lupin is as a person. What I mean by this is that I feel Lupin puts a lot of emphasis on controlling his emotions and in his own self-control because this is the very thing that he loses as a werewolf, along with his humanity. Therefore, I think Lupin is concerned with keeping himself in check while he's in human form because he is unable to do so while in werewolf form.

I also believe that Lupin has a very strong sense of self which also stems in part from his condition and from who he is. The dichotomy of knowing yourself very well- flaws and all- and having to lose that identity once a month is astounding. I feel that this is precisely why Remus has such a strong self-identity: because it's an anchor, a lifeline to which he can cling to before losing his mind in the transformations. To know who he is is especially important to Lupin.

shaggydogstail
March 23rd, 2005, 10:33 pm
I'm not sure that Peter's illness is really on par with the injuries Sirius sustained. Sirius has been attacked by a werewolf; Scabbers is suffering from a parituclarly bad case of the nerves. I think at some point Crookshanks attacks Scabbers, which might be an equivalent; do we ever actually see Scabbers getting attacked by anyone/thing? I can't remember. If we don't, it might be interesting if there was a "healing" period where Peter woudl have to briefly transform back if his injuries were critical enough.Does Crookshanks really attack Scabbers? I thought Ron just found fur and blood on his bed, and assumed that Crookshanks had eaten Scabbers. I know Crookshanks was always chasing Scabbers, but don't remember him definitely attacking him either.

Whether he did or not though, your theory makes sense. If Scabbers wasn't actually injured by Crookshanks, he was cetainly at risk of it happening, which could account for his faking his own death (again Peter? :rolleyes: ). Clearly he couldn't take the risk of being forced back into human form following an attack by Crookshanks and being revealed in the middle of the Gryffindor Common Room!
Originally posted by grrliz
In the book, after Siriusdog's and Lupinwolf's fight, Lupinwolf inexplicably runs into the forest on his own accord (unlike in the movie where Hermione has to do the werewolf call to get him away from Harry), before the Dementors show up. Then Siriusdog tries to run after Peter, but collapses by the lake due to his injuries. I'm not sure what Lupin is doing in the forest at that time (beyond providing a reason why he won't be able to back up Sirius' story and thus Sirius' name can't be cleared ;)), but the fact that he fled their on his own volition before encountering any Dementors suggests either something else lured him there or that he thought he couldn't win his fight with Siriusdog. He's not going to double back to attack Sirius if he's been lured into the forest or if he's scared of Siriusdog. (If that makes any sense.)Yes, this makes sense. Also, if LupinWolf was injured in the fight with SiriusDog, it would seem reasonable for him to retreat into the forest, to find somewhere quiet to lick his wounds - this would be simple animal instinct.

I think canines are rather territorial as well. When SiriusDog fights off LupinWolf he establishes the general area as his territory and I think (based on vague knowledge of animal behaviour from natural history programmes) that LupinWolf would have retreated away from SiriusDog's territory once he had been beaten in a fight.
Originally posted by SIP
OK - I copied all of that because it is pretty clear that Lupin was absent from that scene. He is in the woods, but why doesn't he approach all the children, Sirius as a man on the stretcher, and Snape, as he takes everyone back to the castle? There is no real reason for Lupin to just lurk in the forest while all that is happening unless, as a werewolf, he is afraid of dementors? That is why I think dementors could be used to control werewolves on Voldemort's side.It is an interesting idea that Dementors might be able to control werewolves, but as you say, LupinWolf didn't come back to attack the stretchered Sirius and kids and Snape, which was after the Dementors had retreated. Dementors may or may not affect werewolves, but there is no evidence either way in PoA.
Originally posted by grrliz
I don't think all the DA members managed it; I thought it was only Hermione and Cho? (I don't have my book, I could be wrong.)One of the boys produces something 'hairy' or 'furry' I think, but it is only Hermione's otter and Cho's swan that are described.
Originally posted by subtle science
Blame it on Hermione for being vague in PoA: "Lupin muttered something, and a silvery thing shot out of his wand at it" (p. 85, US paper) is her description to Harry about what Lupin did.You're right, it doesn't actually say that it is formless. I'd always assumed that it might have been a moderate form of the Patronus Charm - if Harry's stag can charge down a hundred Dementors, then presumably Lupin doesn't need to produce a corporeal Patronus to deal with just the one. A Patronus-Lite will do just fine, and we all know that Lupin isn't one to show off.

There are a number of good reasons for Lupin not to produce a fully-formed Corporeal Patronus. Obviously it would be a bit of a giveaway about how the Patronus Charm works - even when Lupin is teaching Harry we don't hear about the animal thing, simply that it acts as a shield. It might also freak the kids out for Lupin to set silvery-animal things charging off around the train and, as I mentioned earlier, that would be uncharacteristically showy. It also allows the form of Lupin's Patronus to remain a secret, which may well be significant given that Harry's is, and Snape's is too. Personally I think Lupin's Patronus is Padfoot, but you might say that I'm rather sentimental. ;)

A PatronusPadfoot (or whatever) leaping at speed out of Lupin's wand straight at a Dementor might not have been clearly visible to Hermione.
Originally posted by subtle science
It seems like a milder effect of the Wolfsbane Potion, to have the other human-animals with him. Although it is also noteworthy that, in the rest of what Lupin says, he doesn't give any indication that he clearly remembers what would go on while he was transformed. He says they had near-misses and laughed about them later, but he doesn't indicate that he was wholly aware of what they did.Lupin does say that once the Marauders were able to join him as Animagi his transformations became some of the best times of his life, so presumably he was able to remember at least part of them. If his mind was less-wolfish and more human under their influence it makes sense that he might be able to remember things at least in part. Otherwise, how would he know? :huh: He sounds like he was really happy, which suggests to me that he wasn't just taking the other Marauders' word for it.
Originally Posted by Chiev
Personally, I believe that everyone does have negative aspects to their personality and does, at times, have a negative outlook on the world. That does not make everyone bad or evil, though. I’ve known people with a very “Pollyanna-ish” worldview and they drive me crazy—because everything doesn’t always have to be beautiful and good. Lupin having a negative side—showing his distaste for Umbridge, for example—makes him believable and human. It adds depth to his character that would not be there otherwise.I agree that Lupin's dislike of Umbridge is believable and human. He would have to be irritatingly saintly never to have said a bad word about anyone, and if you are going to take a dislike to someone, Umbridge seems a perfectly reasonable target!

I think Atherella has a point about the defintion of 'dark side'. I tend to agree with Liz that Lupin as a normal range of human emotions rather than a dark side. I would describe a 'dark side' as something rather more disturbing, sinister even than anything we have ever seen from Lupin. I don't think a dark side necessarily makes someone evil though and I would say that Snape and Sirius both have dark sides to some extent. If by dark side we mean any form of negative emotion then everyone has one - if everyone has a dark side, it seems a slightly redundant expression to me but I understand why others disagree.
Originally posted by grrliz
I can see him mentioning his distaste about Umbridge, and his disappointment at the fact that legislation of that sort was actually passed, but the anger that comes with the discussions he seems to be having with Sirius about Umbridge seems like something he reserves for Sirius alone. Sirius is the one who knows Lupin best in the Order, they have a very long history, and have been through some very tough times together. Sirius is probably the person who has come closest to understanding what Lupin goes through each moon cycle, having been with him during those transformations countless times, and as such he probably best understands Lupin's anger towards Umbridge. Sirius probably acts as a sounding board for Lupin, someone on whom to let off steam, and then Lupin gives a cleaned up, less emotional version to the Order.This makes perfect sense to me, and would seem entirely reasonable and normal behaviour. Most people try to restrict their ranting and raving about people they have a personal animosity againt to close friends. Lupin can open up to Sirius in a way that he can't do with anyone else, and I can imagine the old friends rather enjoying a good moan about the evil old hag Umbridge.

SitDown
March 23rd, 2005, 10:36 pm
by subtle magic Hermione did specify that Lupin used his wand to conjure a Patronus.

I think RemusLupinFan referred to lupin conjuring flames and making light without saying any spell.

I agree about the dark side too. What I mean by everyone has a dark side is that everybody does a tiny bad thing from time to time!

Edit:

by silver There is also the question of memory in PoA, when Hagrid says that Lupin told him he "didn't eat anything last night" in his rampage. How does Lupin know that? Is he more in control as a werewolf as a result of being a Marauder all those years? Is he "smarter than the average werewolf?" Super Werewolf?

It may be because he did take the Wolsbane potion 6 days out of 7, so he kept some control or it may be because he didn't have indigestion in the morning :)

grrliz
March 23rd, 2005, 10:42 pm
grrliz--Okay; I'm not so frightened by your suggesting you're a Lockhart fangirl as I am by your dead-on Lockhart dialogue! : ) !Heh, I had the voice of Kenneth Brannaugh in my head, coaching me along. ;)

The other possibility regarding Lupin’s employability is that, by taking the Wolfsbane Potion, he would be too sick to work for 7 out of every 28 days. This makes him unreliable and less employable.Is Lupin out of commission that long, though? I thought he only missed one day of class and then was back.

I think this has to be a plot point. Whatever happens in that scene, Harry hears a "yelp" of a dog in pain. Sirius has already been hurt and scratched by Lupinwolf. Did Lupin hurt him again and accidentally make him transform back to a man, as Grrliz suggests? No, I suggested that the injuries that Sirius sustained in his initial fight with Lupinwolf (the one to give the kids time to run to safety) are what caused him to transform back into a man. I don't think there was a second attack, because that puts Lupin's whereabouts at the lake, and if he was there when Sirius transformed, then he would have continued attacking him; but Lupin was off running around in the forest.

And they don't attack Harry this time, but Sirius as a dog - which doesn't fit with what Sirius himself says in the Shrieking Shack about dementors not paying attention to animals.I was trying to figure this out and this is what I've come up with. Sirius doesn't say that Dementors don't pay attention to animals; what he says is that his feelings as a dog are less complex and that the Dementors assumed he was losing his mind, so they left him alone ("A job well done on Black, Dementor #245! He's finally gone mad!"). But Sirius at the lake at the end of PoA has had a very turbulent evening -- betrayal! intrigue! confessions! melodrama! -- and his mind may be working in a very fast and complex way, even as Padfoot. Add to this the fact that he's just recieved the best news he's heard in thirteen years -- that Harry is going to come live with him *glee* -- and you've got one complexly happy mind inhabiting the mind of both man and dog. A Dementor feast! Sirius is practically a lightening rod for the Dementors at this point in the story: they're already looking for him to begin with, and then his emotions provide them with a clear path to his location.

RemusLupinFan, great points (as always) about Lupin's niche in the Marauder group. James and Sirius were undoubtedly close, and if their relationship resemembled that of the Weasley twins, they'd be a hard duo to break into and get close to. And yet we see exactly that happen with Lee Jordan: Fred and George are most likely best friends with each other, but that doesn't have any bearing on their own friendship with Lee, just as James and Sirius were best friends but obviously Remus' friendship was incredibly important to them as well. :)

Does Crookshanks really attack Scabbers? I thought Ron just found fur and blood on his bed, and assumed that Crookshanks had eaten Scabbers. I know Crookshanks was always chasing Scabbers, but don't remember him definitely attacking him either.I honestly can't remember (and am too lazy to find it in the book ;)) if he actually attacked him. We know Sirius tried to use Crookshanks to bring Scabbers to him, so in chasing Scabbers around Crookshanks may have skinned him once or twice. Or Peter was tearing himself to pieces to make it look that much more dramatic (which I can definitely see coming from Mr Nine-Fingered Pettigrew).

It also allows the form of Lupin's Patronus to remain a secret, which may well be significant given that Harry's is, and Snape's is too. Personally I think Lupin's Patronus is Padfoot, but you might say that I'm rather sentimental. ;)No, that's cute, I like that idea. Heee, Padfoot Patronus! (Reminds me of when Lucius Malfoy calls Harry "Patronus Potter" which I thought was absolutely hilarious.)

RemusLupinFan
March 23rd, 2005, 10:50 pm
Also, if LupinWolf was injured in the fight with SiriusDog, it would seem reasonable for him to retreat into the forest, to find somewhere quiet to lick his wounds - this would be simple animal instinct.

I think canines are rather territorial as well. When SiriusDog fights off LupinWolf he establishes the general area as his territory and I think (based on vague knowledge of animal behaviour from natural history programmes) that LupinWolf would have retreated away from SiriusDog's territory once he had been beaten in a fight.:tu: I think these are very plausible explanations. I also agree with grrlizthat Sirius' emotions might have been a bit more complex, even as a dog, because emotions were running high. It makes sense that Sirius' happy thoughts even as a dog could have drawn the dementors to him.

Personally I think Lupin's Patronus is Padfoot, but you might say that I'm rather sentimental.Me too. :) Here’s a statement from a website ( http://www.crystalinks.com/totemanimals.html): In the stars, Wolf is represented by the Dog, Sirius, thought by many aboriginal tribes to be the home of the Ancients.I've always secretly hoped that Lupin’s Patronus was Padfoot, so this statement could be used to reinforce the notion that Sirius is Lupin's protector.

clkginny
March 23rd, 2005, 11:32 pm
I think we’ve seen evidence that Lupin is as well-adjusted to his condition as one can be. Despite his slip-up in PoA, he has been quite conscientious about keeping his condition under control. About roaming with the Marauders in his schoolboy days, I don’t believe he would have done it if he didn’t (a) trust his friends to protect people from him and (b) trust that his friends wouldn’t contract lycanthropy if he bit them (which we know they wouldn’t have because werewolves are only a danger to people and not animals).

For sure I think Lupin does deal with a lot of pressure from the prejudice he endures- it would be unrealistic to think that Lupin isn’t upset or affected by these anti-werewolf sentiments.

I agree with your assessment. I am not sure that you understood my point, though. He shows repurcussions with things like his rather withdrawn and secretive manner (these are more mental) and I think part of his reluctance to tell Dumbledore about the Animagus thing was self-esteem, afraid that Dumbledore's dissapointment would be worse than it was. The accumulative pain of being an outcast, which he has spent most of his life as. The physical manifestations (here I am going off of the movie) appears to be somewhat heavy scarring, and he has a perpetually tired/sick look. He may have other physical manifestations that haven't been mentioned in canon, yet.

subtle science
March 23rd, 2005, 11:46 pm
RemusLupinFan--I've always thought the same thing, that Lupin's repression results from his condition. And I think it has a good and bad side: he does maintain his composure; he's even-keeled--but it also means he holds a lot inside. I'm thinking of when he almost, but not quite, lays his hand on Harry's shoulder to comfort the boy. Harry could use that touch--but I have the feeling Lupin wouldn't have been able to handle it at that moment.

The control can also come from a lifetime of having to keep his secret: he's learned to let very few inside. What he benefits from is the rest of the Marauders--their positive response to him, even after they knew what he really was. That seems another running theme of JKR's--the importance of friendship to people's psyches.

Yet Lupin also continues to have that secrecy--he's not exactly a fount of information in the novels; he's very good at misdirection and even misinformation when it suits his purposes. And his control and his sense of self also rely heavily upon the good report of his friends--most dramatically when he was at school, as illustrated by SWM: and that stands out so sharply because of the difference in his character by the present day in OotP.

Chievrefueil
March 24th, 2005, 12:12 am
He might have been injured enough in his fight with Sirius to decide he should seek other hunting. Assuming he is operating solely on instinct, he wouldn't realize that Sirius will revert to human form. He is seeking human prey, not a fight with a dog, so he could have (instinctually) decided to look for easier prey. As to why he didn't come back, he might not have still been close enough to realize that his prey was now subdued.I see. So, the idea is that Lupin was chased off by Sirius, Sirius reverted to himself, and then the Dementors arrived.What I mentioned earlier was that, at least around Sirius, Lupin does open up and let those negative feelings fly. This has nothing to do with having a "dark side" and everything to do with being a normal person with a normal range of emotions. Yes, I agree. Although I didn't comment on it in my last post, I liked your idea about Lupin "confiding" in Sirius about his feelings toward Umbridge and her anti-werewolf campaign. well yes, of course. But there are two possibilities:
1. we express our opinions, find arguments to back up these opinions and counterarguments against other people opinions and we agree when there are things to agree on;

2. we have no interest whatsoever to let ourselves convinced by other people's opinion on some aspects. In this case there won't be agreement on anything and people will try to find counterarguments just to contradict, not really listening to anybody else.

what i meant by being objective was to use possibility 1. To try to listen to other people and analyze as objective as possible. Of course that there will always be some subjectivity.Actually, my comment was meant to be a bit facetious, which is why used the " ;) ." However, I think it's fine to debate even without interest in changing one's own opinion--even if an agreement may never be reached. The process of the debate often leads to better understanding or a different understanding of the books. A counterargument against my view makes me think about it harder. What you're talking about is more "baiting" or arguing without purpose, I suspect. I agree that this approach isn't desirable for good discussion. Because he was barely injured in the morning. He didn't bit himself and scratch himself as he did when he was alone. This makes sense.And also, he didn't have such murderous thoughts and he didn't experience all the rage and violence he did when he was alone, so maybe even mentally he woke up much more relax after the nights of the full moon spent in the company of his friends!I doubt that this had any noticable effects on his state-of-mind or degree of mental calm the next day. If it did, and since the wolfsbane potion makes him more like an ordinary wolf, I'd expect him to also feel mentally calm following his transformations while he was taking the potion. Since he appears haggard upon returning to class, I doubt he gets any mental benefit from it. We have the fact that in the train scene in POA Lupin seems to do controlled wandless magic. I thought he used his wand to conjure the Patronus in the train?Lockhart: Harry, Harry, Harry, can you think of any better way of spending an evening than taking Patronus lessons from me? I think not. Now, this is straight from my fourth book, Duel with a Dementor, and the incantation is 'expecto patronum.' Got that? Now think of your happiest memory -- your first meeting with me at Flourish and Blotts! Or -- no, wait! -- finding out I would be your new Defense Against the Dark Arts professor! So many happy memories to choose from, Harry, you should have no problems with this!
Harry: *blinks*
Lockhart: Er, yes. Wand at the ready!

Wow, I think I may secretly be a Lockhart fangirl. :blush: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: About roaming with the Marauders in his schoolboy days, I don’t believe he would have done it if he didn’t (a) trust his friends to protect people from him and (b) trust that his friends wouldn’t contract lycanthropy if he bit them (which we know they wouldn’t have because werewolves are only a danger to people and not animals).That's what he thought at the time, but, as an adult, he regrets his behavior that he sees as having put others in danger. he isn’t the kind of person who merely accepts the unjust things people say and do against werewolvesI'm not sure about this. Complaining privately about Umbridge isn't really fighting against the injustice. Unless Lupin is out there lobbying and demonstrating against the anti-werewolf agenda (or secretly undermining it), I don't see how you can say he isn't accepting what people say and do against werewolves. Does he respond to any of Snape's comments about his lycanthropy, for instance? I don't recall it, if he does.“I’m bored,” said Sirius. “Wish it was full moon.”

This comment from Sirius demonstrates the fact that romping the grounds with Remus is one of his highest priorities, that it is likely the most fun thing to do. :lol: This is an interesting new interpretation of Sirius's comment for me. I'm used to SIP's take on it--showing Sirius's insensitivity to Lupin's condition. Definitely- I think this actually stems from Lupin's condition and who Lupin is as a person. What I mean by this is that I feel Lupin puts a lot of emphasis on controlling his emotions and in his own self-control because this is the very thing that he loses as a werewolf, along with his humanity. Therefore, I think Lupin is concerned with keeping himself in check while he's in human form because he is unable to do so while in werewolf form.

I also believe that Lupin has a very strong sense of self which also stems in part from his condition and from who he is. The dichotomy of knowing yourself very well- flaws and all- and having to lose that identity once a month is astounding. I feel that this is precisely why Remus has such a strong self-identity: because it's an anchor, a lifeline to which he can cling to before losing his mind in the transformations. To know who he is is especially important to Lupin.Very nice analysis! :tu:It is an interesting idea that Dementors might be able to control werewolves, but as you say, LupinWolf didn't come back to attack the stretchered Sirius and kids and Snape, which was after the Dementors had retreated. Dementors may or may not affect werewolves, but there is no evidence either way in PoA.The more I think about this, the less likely I think it is that Dementors would pose a danger to a werewolf. Dementors feed on emotion--human emotion. What emotion would a werewolf have? If minimal to none, as in the case of a dog animagus, there would be nothing drawing a Dementor to a werewolf.I would describe a 'dark side' as something rather more disturbing, sinister even than anything we have ever seen from Lupin. I don't think a dark side necessarily makes someone evil though and I would say that Snape and Sirius both have dark sides to some extent. If by dark side we mean any form of negative emotion then everyone has one - if everyone has a dark side, it seems a slightly redundant expression to me but I understand why others disagree.I think everyone has a dark side--anyone can be pushed to do or say things that are purposely hurtful, for example. Do you know Billy Joel's song, "The Stranger?"Well we all fall in love / But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets / There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised / That you never saw the stranger
Did you ever let your lover see / The stranger in yourself?

Once I used to believe / I was such a great romancer
Then I came home to a woman / That I could not recognize
When I pressed her for a reason / She refused to even answer
It was then I felt the stranger / Kick me right between the eyes

You may never understand / How the stranger is inspired
But he isn't always evil / And he isn't always wrong
Though you drown in good intentions / You will never quench the fire
You'll give in to your desire / When the stranger comes alongThat's how I think of the dark side of one's personality.RemusLupinFan--I've always thought the same thing, that Lupin's repression results from his condition. And I think it has a good and bad side: he does maintain his composure; he's even-keeled--but it also means he holds a lot inside. I'm thinking of when he almost, but not quite, lays his hand on Harry's shoulder to comfort the boy. Harry could use that touch--but I have the feeling Lupin wouldn't have been able to handle it at that moment.

The control can also come from a lifetime of having to keep his secret: he's learned to let very few inside. What he benefits from is the rest of the Marauders--their positive response to him, even after they knew what he really was. That seems another running theme of JKR's--the importance of friendship to people's psyches.

Yet Lupin also continues to have that secrecy--he's not exactly a fount of information in the novels; he's very good at misdirection and even misinformation when it suits his purposes. And his control and his sense of self also rely heavily upon the good report of his friends--most dramatically when he was at school, as illustrated by SWM: and that stands out so sharply because of the difference in his character by the present day in OotP.:lol: It sounds like you're describing a more pleasant version of Snape. Perhaps a version of Snape who had friends to help him through school?

shaggydogstail
March 24th, 2005, 12:26 am
Okay, you guys have finally driven me off my backside to go and check in the book! :eyebrows:
I was trying to figure this out and this is what I've come up with. Sirius doesn't say that Dementors don't pay attention to animals; what he says is that his feelings as a dog are less complex and that the Dementors assumed he was losing his mind, so they left him alone ("A job well done on Black, Dementor #245! He's finally gone mad!").Yes, you are right. Logically Dementors must be able to sense animals, or at least animagi, or else they would have thought Sirius had escaped years ago! This is what Sirius says;
I could transform in my cell...become a dog. Dementors can't see, you know...' He swallowed. 'They feel their way towards people by sensing their emotions...they could tell that my feelings were less - less human, less complex when I was a dog...but they thought, of course, that I was losing my mind like everyone else in there, so it didn't trouble them. But I was weak, very weak, and I had no hope of driving them away from me without a wand...'
PoA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort, p272 UK paperbackSo it appears that the Dementors could sense Padfoot's emotions in Azkaban and interpreted them as being the feelings of a human who was losing their mind. Presumably they would recognise Sirius as easily by his dog emotions as by his human emotions as they had experienced both while he was in Azkaban. Add to that this highly emotional state, which might have made him easier to pinpoint (more emotions for them to feel their way towards) and it is not surprising they might target him as Padfoot, as you say.
Originally posted by grrliz
We know Sirius tried to use Crookshanks to bring Scabbers to him, so in chasing Scabbers around Crookshanks may have skinned him once or twice. Or Peter was tearing himself to pieces to make it look that much more dramatic (which I can definitely see coming from Mr Nine-Fingered Pettigrew).I've had just a quite flick, and I can't find anything saying Crookshanks ever really got his claws into Scabbers. Like to think he at least administered a nasty bite to the tail at some point though. :evil:
Originally posted by SIP
There is also the question of memory in PoA, when Hagrid says that Lupin told him he "didn't eat anything last night" in his rampage. How does Lupin know that? Is he more in control as a werewolf as a result of being a Marauder all those years? Is he "smarter than the average werewolf?" Super Werewolf? I think he does have some memory, due to the reasons already stated. However there are less pleasant ways he could remember whether he ate during a transformation - if he had, be would still be able to taste the blood, and would probably have blood on him. *shudders*
Originally posted by RemusLupinFan
I've always secretly hoped that Lupin’s Patronus was Padfoot, so this statement could be used to reinforce the notion that Sirius is Lupin's protector.Right, so Harry gets Prongs, Lupin gets Padfoot, I'm going off on a flight of fancy and saying that, due to some bizarre plot convolutions Snape's patronus is a wolf....who gets the rat? :evil:

clkginny
March 24th, 2005, 12:35 am
Right, so Harry gets Prongs, Lupin gets Padfoot, I'm going off on a flight of fancy and saying that, due to some bizarre plot convolutions Snape's patronus is a wolf....who gets the rat?
Lord Voldemort

HermioneLuna
March 24th, 2005, 12:38 am
Does Crookshanks really attack Scabbers? I thought Ron just found fur and blood on his bed, and assumed that Crookshanks had eaten Scabbers. I know Crookshanks was always chasing Scabbers, but don't remember him definitely attacking him either.

At one point, Ron and Hermione are discussing Scabbers. Ron mentions Scabbers' location and Cookshanks immediately attacks Scabbers. Hermione says it's because Crookshanks is a cat and could smell the rat, but there is an instance of Crookshanks attacking Scabbers.

kingwidgit
March 24th, 2005, 12:41 am
Right, so Harry gets Prongs, Lupin gets Padfoot, I'm going off on a flight of fancy and saying that, due to some bizarre plot convolutions Snape's patronus is a wolf....who gets the rat?

Nooo, not LV....Malfoy :rotfl:

At one point, Ron and Hermione are discussing Scabbers. Ron mentions Scabbers' location and Cookshanks immediately attacks Scabbers. Hermione says it's because Crookshanks is a cat and could smell the rat, but there is an instance of Crookshanks attacking Scabbers.Yeah, they were in the common room, Scabber's was in Ron's book bag, Crookshanks pounced on it, dug his claws in, Ron twirls the bag with Crookshanks attached around his head :elaugh:

Chievrefueil
March 24th, 2005, 1:15 am
Lord Voldemort
:rotfl: :tu:

RemusLupinFan
March 24th, 2005, 1:26 am
I'm not sure about this. Complaining privately about Umbridge isn't really fighting against the injustice. Unless Lupin is out there lobbying and demonstrating against the anti-werewolf agenda (or secretly undermining it), I don't see how you can say he isn't accepting what people say and do against werewolves.You’re right that bad-mouthing Umbridge isn’t physically fighting against prejudice, but what I meant is that it shows Lupin doesn’t feel that people are right to discriminate against werewolves. It is true that he can see why people would be afraid of werewolves and that parents may not want their kids taught by a werewolf, but the fact that he has a reaction against what Umbridge is doing indicates that he doesn’t completely accept society’s view of werewolves.

The way I see it, when life deals you out adversity, there are three options: you can either (a) accept it unquestionably, feeling that you deserve this kind of misfortune and that there’s absolutely nothing you can do to change it; (b) totally reject what life has dished out to you, retaining smoldering bitterness about the unfairness of life and the unjustness of it all; or (c) you can accept the adversity life has dealt you but look for ways to change your circumstances and make life better for yourself.

I believe Lupin has opted for the last choice: he accepts that he has lycanthropy and that there is currently no cure, but he has found a way to manage his condition and get the same joy out of life that any normal individual has without feelings of bitterness. I hope that made more sense. :)

This is just speculation, but if Lupin is the half-blood prince, it’s possible that he may lobby for werewolf rights in a peaceful way that raises awareness of the struggles werewolves face.
Lord Voldemort:lol:

WoodenCoyote
March 24th, 2005, 2:04 am
I don’t have my book to look this up now, but I remember Lupin saying specifically that he bit and scratched himself because of his desire to bite humans, who were unavailable to bite in the Shrieking Shack.Yes thank you, I know that. Everyone knows that. I'm looking at it from a practical point of view, pointing out that Remus is acting like a bored, distressed animal [ which he is ] and drawing a real-world example.

Chievrefueil
March 24th, 2005, 4:39 am
The way I see it, when life deals you out adversity, there are three options: you can either (a) accept it unquestionably, feeling that you deserve this kind of misfortune and that there’s absolutely nothing you can do to change it; (b) totally reject what life has dished out to you, retaining smoldering bitterness about the unfairness of life and the unjustness of it all; or (c) you can accept the adversity life has dealt you but look for ways to change your circumstances and make life better for yourself.

I believe Lupin has opted for the last choice: he accepts that he has lycanthropy and that there is currently no cure, but he has found a way to manage his condition and get the same joy out of life that any normal individual has without feelings of bitterness. I hope that made more sense. :)Yes. I would think that anyone from a minority group who was discriminated against would not be happy with their treatment. Do you really think Lupin has no bitterness, though? I know he doesn't show any to Harry, but it seems inconceivable to me that he has none. It's quite easy for me to imagine him feeling bitter toward Umbridge. I don't mean to say that he would manifest his bitterness in the same way as Snape does his, but he could still feel it. Yes thank you, I know that. Everyone knows that. I'm looking at it from a practical point of view, pointing out that Remus is acting like a bored, distressed animal [ which he is ] and drawing a real-world example.It's a good symbolic parallel to a normal animal reaction to being left alone, but your statement seemed to say that such a reaction was the only reason for Lupin biting himself:Remus' behavior [ biting and clawing himself ] when cut off from humans or other animals is, if you think about it, not a sign of savagery or bloodlust at all. I would say that the reason Lupin gives for injuring himself, that there were no humans to bite, is a sign of savagery and bloodlust.

clkginny
March 24th, 2005, 4:50 am
Somebody has probably said this before, but this is another good example of JK's mirrors. Lupin is described as gentle and compassionate and his alter-ego, so to speak, is savage and filled with bloodlust. I don't remember if it was here or Dev of Sev, but someone was talking about starting a thread about mirrors in JK's world. The more I think about it, the better it sounds.

subtle science
March 24th, 2005, 6:34 am
Chievrefueil--Yes, actually I was thinking of the mirror of Snape when I was typing about the theme of friendship in the books....It's pretty much the source of the idea, thinking about the ramifications of social isolation and how it plays out in the development of the various characters.

As for Lupin's trusting in the other Marauders to keep them all out of trouble...at the time, maybe. Although what Lupin says in PoA seems to indicate that they all thought the danger of close calls was highly entertaining--they enjoyed the very carelessness:

"they were able to keep a werewolf in check. I doubt whether any Hogwarts students ever found out more about the Hogwarts grounds and Hogsmeade than we did...."
"That was still really dangerous! Running around in the dark with a werewolf! What if you'd given the others the slip, and bitten somebody?"
"A thought that still haunts me," said Lupin heavily. "And there were near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards. We were young, thoughtless--carried away with our own cleverness" (p. 355, US paper).

After the fact, Lupin regrets the chances they took; however, his recollection seems to point to the idea that they weren't overly concerned about potential harm--that added to the fun.

asrivathsan
March 24th, 2005, 7:17 am
I have no idea what you mean by this. All the characters seem very human to me—except Voldemort, who is a caricature. Also, Lupin is a skilled wizard, so how would he be more “mugglish” than, say, Neville?
well, actually, i meant to say that, (ignoring his shabby clothes) Lupin would be a kind of person whom Dursleys would prefer more than other wizards.....

So, is lupin far moe adventurous than what he seems to be? Are we underestimating him when we say that he is quiet? Does any one here think that lupin is less powerful than james and sirius? I personally don't....

What really is one of the most amazing qualities of lupin is his capacity to understand others. Lupin probably has a better idea of harry's feelings in an over-all view. Sirius, as it has been said, wanted(??) harry to be more like james, lupin sees harry as harry. Lupin's composure in the train also shows a lot....

silver ink pot
March 24th, 2005, 7:43 am
I think everyone has a dark side--anyone can be pushed to do or say things that are purposely hurtful, for example. Do you know Billy Joel's song, "The Stranger?"

Sigh . . . I love the album, "The Stranger!" (And I love Billy Joel in general.) Do you know, the year I graduated from high school that album came out, and my senior class went to New York City, stayed on 57th Street and ate supper one night at Mama Leone's. It still seems like a dream!

I truly think that in any discussion of these books, the term "dark side" is perfectly allowable, since "Dark Arts" and "Dark Magic" are common terms since Book One. Lupin isn't perfect, and doesn't anyone think that he might show a different side to Sirius than he shows to everyone else?

I found some great quotes about "darkness" that I really like!

"The prince of darkness is a gentleman." ~ William Shakespeare

"Yet from those flames No light, but rather darkness visible." ~ John Milton

"Our limitations serve, our wounds serve, even our darkness can serve." ~ Rachel Naomi Remen

"What! can the devil speak true? And oftentimes, to win us to our harm, The instruments of darkness tell us truths; Win us with honest trifles, to betray 's In deepest consequence."
~ William Shakespeare (1564-1616)
English poet, the greatest poet ever
from Macbeth, Act 1, scene 3,

"There's a Mr. Hyde for every happy Jekyll face, a dark face on the other side of the mirror. The brain behind that face never heard of razors, prayers, or the logic of the universe. You turn the mirror sideways and see your face reflected with a sinister left-hand twist, half mad and half sane."
~ Stephen King (1947-)
American novelist, short-story writer, author of horror books

And now I've just got to "invoke" the band, Pink Floyd, who were mentioned by JKR on her website here:

JKR on Pink Floyd:
Somebody from Warner Bros. offered me one of the giant, blow-up Aunt Marges that they had tied around the front of the cinema, but I thought it would have been more fun to untie them and let them drift over the country for the next couple of days. Pink Floyd did it with that giant inflatable pig... but most of the people reading this will be too young to know what on earth I'm talking about.

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=76


She is referring to a giant pig balloon that used to float over the audience at live performances of a song called "Pig."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Floyd

Pink Floyd, of course, had the album called "Dark Side of the Moon," which my son listens to every day of his life so there is no escape from it at my house, lol. However, since I wasn't a fan, I didn't know there were so many dog/wolf references in their work. This first one made me think of the werewolves that Voldemort might use in the war:

Dogs of War

Dogs of war and men of hate
With no cause, we don’t discriminate
Discovery is to be disowned
Our currency is flesh and bone
Hell opened up and put on sale
Gather ’round and haggle
For hard cash, we will lie and deceive
Even our masters don’t know the web we weave

One world, it’s a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... one world

Invisible transfers, long distance calls,
Hollow laughter in marble halls
Steps have been taken, a silent uproar
Has unleashed the dogs of war
You can’t stop what has begun
Signed, sealed, they deliver oblivion
We all have a dark side, to say the least
And dealing in death is the nature of the beast

One world, it’s a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... one world

The dogs of war don’t negotiate
The dogs of war won’t capitulate,
They will take and you will give,
And you must die so that they may live
You can knock at any door,
But wherever you go, you know they’ve been there before
Well winners can lose and things can get strained
But whatever you change, you know the dogs remain.

One world, it’s a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... one world

This next one was just interesting to me, since we are talking about Lupin's possible dark side (less positive, shall we say). I'm in no way saying this is his persona, but it is reminiscent of werewolves in general:

Dogs

You gotta be crazy, you gotta have a real need.
You gotta sleep on your toes, and when you're on the street,
You gotta be able to pick out the easy meat with your eyes closed.
And then moving in silently, down wind and out of sight,
You gotta strike when the moment is right without thinking.

And after a while, you can work on points for style.
Like the club tie, and the firm handshake,
A certain look in the eye and an easy smile.
You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to,
So that when they turn their backs on you,
You'll get the chance to put the knife in.

. . . And it seems to you the thing to do would be to isolate the winner
And everything's done under the sun,
And you believe at heart, everyone's a killer.

Who was born in a house full of pain.
Who was trained not to spit in the fan.
Who was told what to do by the man.
Who was broken by trained personnel.
Who was fitted with collar and chain.
Who was given a pat on the back.
Who was breaking away from the pack.
Who was only a stranger at home.
Who was ground down in the end.
Who was found dead on the phone.
Who was dragged down by the stone.

And at the end of the song, "Eclipse," on Dark Side, someone speaks the sentence,

"There is no dark side of the moon really. Matter of fact it's all dark."

clkginny
March 24th, 2005, 5:42 pm
I think that what makes these characters seem so real to us is the fact that they mirror real life. All people have good and bad traits. These characters have wonderful flaws that make them well-rounded, as opposed to being flat, and having no personality.

Does Lupin have a dark side? Well, one major one is the fact that he is a werewolf. No, it's not his fault, but it is there. He has to face the knowledge that he "becomes a full-fledged monster once a month" and it has affected who he is. That doesn't make him a bad person. It does make him a full-character. All these characters have a dark side, and I, for one, am glad they do. Full credit to JK for making them so real.

FirefightingMuggle
March 24th, 2005, 6:28 pm
I would say that Lupin's Werewolf is his Dark Side. It is the uncontrollable monster that overtakes him once a month, and forces him to act out of his usual character.
I think that Sirius' family history may be a dark side of sorts for Sirius. He obviously thinks that all the pure blood mania stuff is nuts. Throughout Harry's stay at #12 Grimmulad place, Sirius tosses out family heirlooms like the mean nothing to him. I think all of his life Sirius has been in a way tossing his family's heirlooms out. If hatred of muggleborns and halfbloods was something passed down through the generations in that family, Sirius threw that out like yesterday's garbage. Sirius was rejecting the influences in his life that could have fed his darker half.
Peter's dark side is shown when he betrays his friends. He betrays James to his death. He betrayed Sirius and got him sent to Azkaban. Peter is the betrayer.
I don't know enough about James to really pinpoint his dark side. One could argue that attacking Snape in the SWM scene was a dark thing to do, but I don't think so. I've always viewed it as a childish thing to do. It was a product of immaturity. It had nothing to do with evil, it was just a "boys will be boys" type of action.

Jo's characters are very 3D. They all have a story, they all have a background. Each of them behaves a certain way for a specific reason. None of the major players seem to be flat characters, and even some of those who are in the background have depth to them (thinking of the Background information on Dean Thomas and Theodore Nott on Jo's Website).

SitDown
March 24th, 2005, 8:02 pm
by SIP I truly think that in any discussion of these books, the term "dark side" is perfectly allowable, since "Dark Arts" and "Dark Magic" are common terms since Book One. Lupin isn't perfect, and doesn't anyone think that he might show a different side to Sirius than he shows to everyone else?

True.The question is what exactly a "dark side" means.
It can mean several things: from the fact that a person does constantly bad things, to the fact that a person does by accident bad things; from the fact that a person lies from time to time and teases other people and sometimes annoys other people and treats them badly, to the fact that a person really enjoys treating other people in a horrible way etc.

Personally, I see the dark side as the ring not activated. We all carry the ring within us. The attraction of evil. At the vaste majority of people the ring does not manifest itself other then by little lies and enjoying to get back to someone, from time to time.
The rule: turn the other cheek too is wonderful, but totally unrealistic.

So, if by saying that a person has a dark side because she/he has within herself/himself the potential to do evil = The ring, then Lupin has a dark side and may i say that we all have the dark side?

If by dark side you understand something else, then Lupin does not have the dark side, in my opinion. I don't see the fact that he criticize Umbridge as a dark side or as an unpleasant part of his personality. I am sure that Lupin would not harm Umbridge, given the chance. He just tells Sirius, his best friend, that Umbridge really is the worst and did bad things to him indirrectly!

by subtle science After the fact, Lupin regrets the chances they took; however, his recollection seems to point to the idea that they weren't overly concerned about potential harm--that added to the fun.

I don't hink this is correct. They laughed after the nights of the full moon, thinking at their adventures, but I don't think that they laughed of the danger they have put people into, if that was the case. I think the idea is not that they didn't care whether they caused harm or not. We see that Remus is really careful about him not injuring somebody. I think the idea is that they were pretty reckless.

They thought that everything was going to be ok, they thought that no one would get harmed. And if this is true, then it means that Lupin really trusted James and Sirius to look after him and stop him from hurting anyone.

And I do believe this is true. Deep down Lupin knew that running out of the Shack could turn dangerous, but he thought and hoped a little recklessly that this would not happen, based on the fact that his friends were big animals.

I don't know how things are in the american law system, but in the French one things go like this:

if you kill a person there are 4 possibilities from the point og view of guilt:
1. you wanted to kill that person. In this case the form of your culpability is direct intention;
2. you didn't want to kill that person, but you realized that your actions might lead to that and you acepted the possibility that that person would die. This time is indirect intention;
3. you didn't want to kill that person and you didn't acept that person's death either. You just hoped, based on some facts and realities that that person will not die. But you have the possibility to foreseen the death of that person. In this case is culpability with foreseen, something like that, I don't know how to translate it;
4. you didn't want to kill that person, you didn't acept his/her death, you didn't foressen that person's death, but given the circumstances you should have foreseen that person's death.

These are the 4 forms of guilt in criminal law. The punishment adapts to these forms. It's the toughest in the first case and the less severe in the last case.

If you have a person who did't want to kill, didn't accept the death, didn't foreseen it and given the circumstances didn't have how to foreseen it, then that person is innocent.

I would say that Remus enters the third cathegory, maybe even the forth one. He surely based his hopes that nothing bad will happen on the fact that his friends will stop him from hurting anyone!

Edit

by Chevrefueil Quote:
Originally Posted by SitDown
We have the fact that in the train scene in POA Lupin seems to do controlled wandless magic.

I thought he used his wand to conjure the Patronus in the train?

Yes, but he seems not to use magic when he conjures flames:

" There was a soft, crackling noise and a shivering light filled the compartment. Professor Lupin appeared to be holding a handful of flames. (....)
Later on: " he got slowly to his feet with his handful of fire held out in front of him."Later on Hermione says:
"And Professor Lupin stepped over you, and walked towards the Dementor, and pulled out his wand"

So you see, he didn't use the wand to conjure flames! So it seems that he is doing controlled wandless magic.

Also in the movie, if we take it as foreshadowing, he lights the candle without his wand in the same way that Dd did it earlier in the movie.

So maybe Lupin really is much more powerful than people give him credit for. Wouldn't it be brilliant of Jo? Cause this is what Lupin causes to people: they take him as just a gentle, calm man, but he may be much more stronger than expected. Ron says in pOA that a good hex could kill Luipin and still, he is still standing!

by subtle science Yet Lupin also continues to have that secrecy--he's not exactly a fount of information in the novels; he's very good at misdirection and even misinformation when it suits his purposes. And his control and his sense of self also rely heavily upon the good report of his friends--most dramatically when he was at school, as illustrated by SWM: and that stands out so sharply because of the difference in his character by the present day in OotP.

I disagree. I think that Lupin is a fount of information, as much as he can receal things giving the fact that he must listen to DD and DD is in fact the one who decides what to tell and what not to tell.

In OOTP lupin is the one who has the final word in telling Harry the truth ( with Dd's permission, but still). In POA he is the one who decides to explain things to harry with lots of details before killing Peter.

He is the one who tells Harry about the Dementors, Azkaban, Patronus Charms etc.

he tells Harry about Grimauld Plave and how to find it etc.

I think he has been until now one of the greatest souces of information in the books, which may lead to the conclusion that he will not be killed so soon. There are plenty of other things that he has to reveal. And the most important thing is that he treats Harry like an adult when revealing information to him. Very few other adults really treat Harry like an adult. Molly doesn't do it. Moody, Arthur not exactly. Sirius doesn't do it, as he is a child himself. Not even DD does it all the time.

clkginny
March 24th, 2005, 8:44 pm
I don't hink this is correct. They laughed after the nights of the full moon, thinking at their adventures, but I don't think that they laughed of the danger they have put people into, if that was the case. I think the idea is not that they didn't care whether they caused harm or not. We see that Remus is really careful about him not injuring somebody. I think the idea is that they were pretty reckless.
They didn't see the possible consequences of their actions at the time. They didn't think about it/weren't concerned about it, says basically the same thing. Yes, Lupin trusted the others, apparently with good reason, because (aside from the SS incident) nothing did happen. But (and it is a big but) something could have. They describe it as fun, and they apparently didn't consider the ramifications of what they were doing, if they laughed about it afterwards. It was bad enough that Lupin thinks they were wrong.

Take it down to personal experience. We've (most of us, anyway) done reckless things, perhaps as teenagers, that could have had serious consequences. It was fun when we did it. Later, we looked back and said "Wow, that was (insert word here ie stupid reckless foolish). Lucky nothing happened." At the time, we weren't concerned. That doesn't change the nature of the act, though.

I think the difference in how you see it and how I see it, is they didn't think. You see Lupin as concerned about injuring someone, but thinking the marauders could handle it. I see it as lack of concern, because the marauders could handle it, without considering the possibility that they couldn't, and showing little concern after their close calls, as they continued the behavior. It just points in Lupin's favor that he could see how wrong it was as an adult, something that I'm not sure Sirius could do.

silver ink pot
March 24th, 2005, 8:54 pm
True.The question is what exactly a "dark side" means.
It can mean several things: from the fact that a person does constantly bad things, to the fact that a person does by accident bad things; from the fact that a person lies from time to time and teases other people and sometimes annoys other people and treats them badly, to the fact that a person really enjoys treating other people in a horrible way etc.

Personally, I see the dark side as the ring not activated. We all carry the ring within us. The attraction of evil. At the vaste majority of people the ring does not manifest itself other then by little lies and enjoying to get back to someone, from time to time.
The rule: turn the other cheek too is wonderful, but totally unrealistic.

So, if by saying that a person has a dark side because she/he has within herself/himself the potential to do evil = The ring, then Lupin has a dark side and may i say that we all have the dark side?

I think that through the ages, most philosophers and religious thinkers have agreed that we all have a dark side, or the potential to do evil within us. But most also agree that we have free will that can change our destinies for good or ill. We can choose "not" to follow our impulses. We can choose to follow our dark impulses. Or we can do nothing, and throw our fate to the four winds, and that is a choice, too.


If by dark side you understand something else, then Lupin does not have the dark side, in my opinion. I don't see the fact that he criticize Umbridge as a dark side or as an unpleasant part of his personality. I am sure that Lupin would not harm Umbridge, given the chance. He just tells Sirius, his best friend, that Umbridge really is the worst and did bad things to him indirrectly!

I don't see the Umbridge thing as all that bad, since everyone else in the story has a reason to hate her too. Lupin would seem strange if he said something nice about her, lol.


I don't hink this is correct. They laughed after the nights of the full moon, thinking at their adventures, but I don't think that they laughed of the danger they have put people into, if that was the case. I think the idea is not that they didn't care whether they caused harm or not. We see that Remus is really careful about him not injuring somebody. I think the idea is that they were pretty reckless.

They thought that everything was going to be ok, they thought that no one would get harmed. And if this is true, then it means that Lupin really trusted James and Sirius to look after him and stop him from hurting anyone.

And I do believe this is true. Deep down Lupin knew that running out of the Shack could turn dangerous, but he thought and hoped a little recklessly that this would not happen, based on the fact that his friends were big animals.

The trouble with them was, like a alot of teenagers, they thought they had "control" of the situation, when maybe they didn't. They had alot of faith in eachother and in their own abilities, and close-calls are always funny to teenagers, because they don't think about consequences.

These are the 4 forms of guilt in criminal law. The punishment adapts to these forms. It's the toughest in the first case and the less severe in the last case.

If you have a person who did't want to kill, didn't accept the death, didn't foreseen it and given the circumstances didn't have how to foreseen it, then that person is innocent.

I would say that Remus enters the third cathegory, maybe even the forth one. He surely based his hopes that nothing bad will happen on the fact that his friends will stop him from hurting anyone!

I wouldn't use the phrase "innocent." Anyone over the age of 10 years old knows how human beings are hurt and killed. But perhaps they are "not guilty" if the death is accidental and there was no "intent" to harm. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there is a difference between "innocent" and "not guilty." James didn't become "innocent" when he saved Snape from the werewolf, but he lessened his guilt.

Of course, many people say that Snape was just given information and he had a choice about how far to go with it. In other words, Sirius didn't lead him down the tunnel, as far as we know. However, ethically, Sirius didn't care about the consequences of his actions, even though he was aware of the danger.

In our country there are lawsuits every day in which people weren't "warned" of danger. If there is a dangerous road, the state has to put up signs warning of a landslide zone or a deadly curve, or they are "liable" or "responsible" for whatever accidents occur there. I just saw a report on television about a company that makes beds for children in which little kids were getting caught and strangled because the bed slats weren't made well. That company didn't "tuck" children into bed at night, but they led parents to believe they were buying a safe product.

I believe you have to look at the "intent" of Sirius, which is why Snape says he was "capable of murder" while a teenager.

Remus would have been "innocent" of knowing what he was doing while he was a werewolf, but the wizarding world might not have seen it that way, since werewolves are listed as "beasts" during their transformations.

I don't know enough about James to really pinpoint his dark side. One could argue that attacking Snape in the SWM scene was a dark thing to do, but I don't think so. I've always viewed it as a childish thing to do. It was a product of immaturity. It had nothing to do with evil, it was just a "boys will be boys" type of action.

But don't you think that SWM shows that James had the "potential" for doing evil? Because I think many people here have been in situations of bullying, and when it is directed at you there is no doubt that the person means you harm and bad things. What is interesting is that James doesn't even think it over before he acts.

Whizbang posted this on Ginny's thread about the mirrors, and I think this passage from Chapter 3, GoF, about Dudley and his parents "mirrors" James:

Vernon and Aunt Petunia had managed to find excuses for his bad marks as usual: Aunt Petunia always insisted that Dudley was a very gifted boy whose teachers didn't understand him, while Uncle Vernon maintained that "he didn't want some swotty little nancy boy for a son anyway." They also skated over the accusations of bullying in the report - "He's a boisterous little boy, but he wouldn't hurt a fly!" Aunt Petunia had said tearfully.

I think many readers want to find excuses for James, since he is Harry's father. We want to think of him as "Noble Patronus Prongs," even though the evidence points in a different direction after OotP. But it is clear from the above passage that even though there is strong evidence of "bullying," some parents stay in denial. Indeed, Petunia has evidence in her own house - seeing Dudley bully Harry for years and years! Yet she continues to make excuses for him, and by OotP, Dudley is starting to beat people up, smokes on street corners, tears up the play park, and throws rocks at people's cars.

I continue to feel that we are supposed to notice a parallel between Dudley's gang and the Marauders. None of them are necessarily "evil," but they are choosing to break all the rules, putting people in danger, bullying others, acting arrogant, and lying about their activities.

HermioneLuna
March 24th, 2005, 9:17 pm
Yet Lupin also continues to have that secrecy--he's not exactly a fount of information in the novels; he's very good at misdirection and even misinformation when it suits his purposes. And his control and his sense of self also rely heavily upon the good report of his friends--most dramatically when he was at school, as illustrated by SWM: and that stands out so sharply because of the difference in his character by the present day in OotP.

I'd be interested to know what you're basing those claims on. As has already been stated, Lupin does give Harry quite a bit of information. He's even the one to tell Harry that Sirius is dead. When has Lupin ever misdirected or given false information to suit his purposes? And does he do it on a consistent basis? I don't think he does. And without that consistency it is unfair to say that he's very good at twisting things around. One time does not make a continuous habit. Even two times makes a line, not a pattern.

And I agree that Lupin has an aura of secrecy. I think that's neccessary, especially if he's to be crucial to the plot later on. Almost all of the characters are shrouded in some mystery. It doesn't mean that that mystery is hiding a dark side.

I highly doubt that Lupin's entire sense of self was based upon James, Sirius and Peter. If that were true, he would have lost all sense of self and sanity when James died and he thought Peter died and Sirius was sent to Azkaban. I think Lupin has always been in control of what he's able to control. Meaning he can't control the fact that he's a werewolf, but he can control his reaction to it. He could have choosen to take another route altogether from the one that he did in fact choose.

Personally, I see the dark side as the ring not activated. We all carry the ring within us. The attraction of evil. At the vaste majority of people the ring does not manifest itself other then by little lies and enjoying to get back to someone, from time to time.
The rule: turn the other cheek too is wonderful, but totally unrealistic.

I thought the ring summoned the greed of power, not evil. I'm not overly familiar with the series, but that's how I understood it.

FirefightingMuggle
March 24th, 2005, 9:23 pm
But don't you think that SWM shows that James had the "potential" for doing evil? Because I think many people here have been in situations of bullying, and when it is directed at you there is no doubt that the person means you harm and bad things. What is interesting is that James doesn't even think it over before he acts.

I see where you are coming from here. Perhaps James history with bullying and his ego are his dark side.

I think many readers want to find excuses for James, since he is Harry's father. We want to think of him as "Noble Patronus Prongs," even though the evidence points in a different direction after OotP. But it is clear from the above passage that even though there is strong evidence of "bullying," some parents stay in denial. Indeed, Petunia has evidence in her own house - seeing Dudley bully Harry for years and years! Yet she continues to make excuses for him, and by OotP, Dudley is starting to beat people up, smokes on street corners, tears up the play park, and throws rocks at people's cars.

I continue to feel that we are supposed to notice a parallel between Dudley's gang and the Marauders. None of them are necessarily "evil," but they are choosing to break all the rules, putting people in danger, bullying others, acting arrogant, and lying about their activities.

I can see the parallel between Dudley's gang and the Maruaders. They get into trouble, like kids are apt to do. I think the difference is how we percieve these groups. From the start of the series we have seen Dudley as the cousin who makes Harry's life heck. We see James as a source of inspiration for Harry. Trying to switch the roles of those two is difficult. Trying to make someone who we have seen, up to the middle of OotP, as a predominantly good (for lack of a better word) character into a Dudley-like character is tough. But, there are parallels there.
Harry rejects the bullying behavior. He doesn't seem to have the want to pick on kids that are weaker or less popular. Harry's got his rivalry with Draco, sure, but I don't know that I would call that bullying. Perhaps, living with Dudley for all those years was a good thing for Harry. He knows how awful it is to be picked on, so he doesn't pick on other kids.
Lily seemed to be against the behavior of the Marauders. She was angry and upset when she saw it happening. Lupin and Sirius told Harry that Lily hated James. Where did Lily get her feelings about bullying from? Does this reflect back to her relationship with Petuina? Harry seems to have quite a bit of both his parents in him doesn't he?

Credo Buffa
March 24th, 2005, 9:26 pm
Before I get going, I'll just say that I haven't had time to read all the posts in this discussion, so I apologize if I repeat anything that has already been said, etc. HermioneLuna suggested I come over here and defend our precious Lupin! So, here I am!

I would say that Lupin's Werewolf is his Dark Side. It is the uncontrollable monster that overtakes him once a month, and forces him to act out of his usual character.
I think that Sirius' family history may be a dark side of sorts for Sirius. He obviously thinks that all the pure blood mania stuff is nuts. Throughout Harry's stay at #12 Grimmulad place, Sirius tosses out family heirlooms like the mean nothing to him. I think all of his life Sirius has been in a way tossing his family's heirlooms out. If hatred of muggleborns and halfbloods was something passed down through the generations in that family, Sirius threw that out like yesterday's garbage. Sirius was rejecting the influences in his life that could have fed his darker half.
Peter's dark side is shown when he betrays his friends. He betrays James to his death. He betrayed Sirius and got him sent to Azkaban. Peter is the betrayer.
I don't know enough about James to really pinpoint his dark side. One could argue that attacking Snape in the SWM scene was a dark thing to do, but I don't think so. I've always viewed it as a childish thing to do. It was a product of immaturity. It had nothing to do with evil, it was just a "boys will be boys" type of action.

Jo's characters are very 3D. They all have a story, they all have a background. Each of them behaves a certain way for a specific reason. None of the major players seem to be flat characters, and even some of those who are in the background have depth to them (thinking of the Background information on Dean Thomas and Theodore Nott on Jo's Website).
I really like what you've said here. No character in the series is perfect, and that's really important to understand. Everyone is flawed--just as in real life--and whether or not you choose to interpret those imperfections as "darkness" or just plain old humanity is your choice. Personally, I'd rather not condemn anyone for some silly mistakes they've made in the past, an outburst or two in a highly emotional situation, or a condition that a person has no control over.

If you want to call those imperfections a "dark side," then I think we should all look in ourselves and find our own "dark side," and then ask ourselves if we think less of ourselves, or if anyone else should have reservations about who we are because of them.

We should also ask ourselves if we deserve some credit for being able to push that "dark side" out of our daily and be the best people we possibly can. Sometimes that dark side is more controllable for some than for others, and that's not always our fault. Shouldn't we look on the triumph of an inherently good person over a less than savory condition as a really heroic thing?

I think that through the ages, most philosophers and religious thinkers have agreed that we all have a dark side, or the potential to do evil within us. But most also agree that we have free will that can change our destinies for good or ill. We can choose "not" to follow our impulses. We can choose to follow our dark impulses. Or we can do nothing, and throw our fate to the four winds, and that is a choice, too.
In a lot of cases, this is very true. Every person has some potential to do evil. However, the problem with philosophical and theological considerations in the case of evil is how exactly we define evil. And what degrees of evil exist in the world? Is a person like Lupin with an incurable condition that causes him to act against his natural behavior in a dangerous way really an evil person? And if he is, is he more or less evil than a person whose everyday, natural behavior is to go out and murder innocent people from a conscious decision? And is the pathological killer a better person if, after years in prison, has realized that his former behavior was wrong and has chosen to devote himself to good. . . than a person with a condition that, no matter how consciously he chooses to be a good person, he cannot physically overcome?

Theological and philosophical discussions of evil are never so easy as to say that we all have the possibility of evil within us, and that we can all choose to overcome it.

silver ink pot
March 24th, 2005, 9:27 pm
I highly doubt that Lupin's entire sense of self was based upon James, Sirius and Peter. If that were true, he would have lost all sense of self and sanity when James died and he thought Peter died and Sirius was sent to Azkaban. I think Lupin has always been in control of what he's able to control. Meaning he can't control the fact that he's a werewolf, but he can control his reaction to it. He could have choosen to take another route altogether from the one that he did in fact choose.

We don't know what Lupin did when James died. We don't really know what he did when Sirius was arrested. And there is certainly no information about his feelings toward Peter, except that he doesn't speak to him in SWM, and he is very cold towards him in the Shrieking Shack, and then tries to kill him.

So we don't know what effect all these things in the past have had on Lupin's life, because there are twelve years unaccounted for. There is absolutely no canon that Lupin has been "in control" of anything, even his own life, for those twelve years.

Credo Buffa
March 24th, 2005, 9:32 pm
And I agree that Lupin has an aura of secrecy. I think that's neccessary, especially if he's to be crucial to the plot later on. Almost all of the characters are shrouded in some mystery. It doesn't mean that that mystery is hiding a dark side.
This is a really good point. Secrecy in a series like this is simply a plot device. . . as much as we'd like to, we have to consider the literary implications of these characters.

Besides that, it's really true that we can't assume all secrets are hiding something evil behind them. They might hide things that cause pain to Lupin. . . his past obviously brings a lot of painful memories, and we can hardly expect him to be a fountain of information regarding things which are very close to him personally.

SitDown
March 24th, 2005, 9:33 pm
by SIP I wouldn't use the phrase "innocent." Anyone over the age of 10 years old knows how human beings are hurt and killed. But perhaps they are "not guilty" if the death is accidental and there was no "intent" to harm. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there is a difference between "innocent" and "not guilty." James didn't become "innocent" when he saved Snape from the werewolf, but he lessened his guilt.

Of course, many people say that Snape was just given information and he had a choice about how far to go with it. In other words, Sirius didn't lead him down the tunnel, as far as we know. However, ethically, Sirius didn't care about the consequences of his actions, even though he was aware of the danger.

In our country there are lawsuits every day in which people weren't "warned" of danger. If there is a dangerous road, the state has to put up signs warning of a landslide zone or a deadly curve, or they are "liable" or "responsible" for whatever accidents occur there. I just saw a report on television about a company that makes beds for children in which little kids were getting caught and strangled because the bed slats weren't made well. That company didn't "tuck" children into bed at night, but they led parents to believe they were buying a safe product.

I believe you have to look at the "intent" of Sirius, which is why Snape says he was "capable of murder" while a teenager.

Remus would have been "innocent" of knowing what he was doing while he was a werewolf, but the wizarding world might not have seen it that way, since werewolves are listed as "beasts" during their transformations.

I think it would be better and we could understand each other more, if you didn't stick so much to words and tried to understand the idea of what i am saying. I am not Jo, I don't word my thoughts so carefully and moreover I am not a native English speaker. So maybe we can just stop to ideas and not pick up words?

Innocent, not-guilty, yes, it is a difference if you want! But the idea was that the person is not convicted, is not punished. This was the idea, now, if I haven't expressed it clearly enough I am really sorry, I hope it came more clearly now.

About Snape and Sirius and James, i didn't want to make any statement about them. I just wanted to present the four forms of guilt in the continental criminal law system in order to back up the idea that by acepting to run free with the marauders on the nights of the full moon, Lupin was not as guilty as someone suggested. he didn't seek danger and laughed of it, he didn't acept it either, he probably only hoped a little foolishly that the danger will not come based on the fact that his friends were animagi and could control him.

That's all i wanted to say! Now, if even a 10 years old knows everything about guilt, then I am really sorry that I lost your time with useless comments on the law's perspective on guilt!

HermioneLuna I am not saying I am right, but I've always seen the Ring as not only the attraction to power, but also and more importantly, the potential of doing evil.

by silver I think that through the ages, most philosophers and religious thinkers have agreed that we all have a dark side, or the potential to do evil within us. But most also agree that we have free will that can change our destinies for good or ill. We can choose "not" to follow our impulses. We can choose to follow our dark impulses. Or we can do nothing, and throw our fate to the four winds, and that is a choice, too.

I don't see the Umbridge thing as all that bad, since everyone else in the story has a reason to hate her too. Lupin would seem strange if he said something nice about her, lol.

Agreed! i am glad that you consider that choices are really very important and that no one can blame other people for their life. There is always the choice of chosing another path!

grrliz
March 24th, 2005, 9:35 pm
We don't know what Lupin did when James died. We don't really know what he did when Sirius was arrested. And there is certainly no information about his feelings toward Peter, except that he doesn't speak to him in SWM, and he is very cold towards him in the Shrieking Shack, and then tries to kill him.

So we don't know what effect all these things in the past have had on Lupin's life, because there are twelve years unaccounted for. There is absolutely no canon that Lupin has been "in control" of anything, even his own life, for those twelve years.I guess the question is, then, if Lupin did lose all that because his sense of self was so absolutely connected to the other three, how is it he got his sense of self back in PoA without coming into contact with any of his old friends? (Scabbers doesn't count. ;)) Does that mean he largely maintained it through those twelve years, or does that mean that luckily he happened to re-find himself just as we first encounter him?

Credo Buffa
March 24th, 2005, 9:35 pm
So we don't know what effect all these things in the past have had on Lupin's life, because there are twelve years unaccounted for. There is absolutely no canon that Lupin has been "in control" of anything, even his own life, for those twelve years.
I think it all depends on if you believe in an "innocent until proven guilty" attitude or the opposite. Where's the canon evidence that says he wasn't in control during those years? Where's the canon evidence that he did anything at all in those years? For all we knew, he was living under a rock in Siberia. He might have been a transvestite showgirl in Atlantic City. He might have been feeding starving orphans in Africa. We don't know--for good or bad--what he was doing, so it hardly seems like we can consider the fact that we have a big hole in his history as evidence of evil in his character.

SitDown
March 24th, 2005, 9:39 pm
by SIP We don't know what Lupin did when James died. We don't really know what he did when Sirius was arrested. And there is certainly no information about his feelings toward Peter, except that he doesn't speak to him in SWM, and he is very cold towards him in the Shrieking Shack, and then tries to kill him.

So we don't know what effect all these things in the past have had on Lupin's life, because there are twelve years unaccounted for. There is absolutely no canon that Lupin has been "in control" of anything, even his own life, for those twelve years.

I disagree. I think we have plenty of canon to show that Lupin is an individual, not only part of the marauders' group. he didn't rely on James and Sirius, he was himself!

Each scene from the books is an evidence of how Lupin reacted to James and Sirius's loss.

He is a kind, gentle person who treats everybody fairly. He is always willing to help! He has kept his sense of humor1 He shows quite a lot of strenght at dealing with his losses when Sirius dies, he is calm, he is tolerant and patient etc.

I think all these are proves that Lupin has acepted his losses and has moved forward all these years. he has survives cause he is a survivor!

grrliz
March 24th, 2005, 9:42 pm
He might have been a transvestite showgirl in Atlantic City. He and Grandma-in-Drag-Snape put on an excellent double act. ;)

::edit:: I don't know if anyone else saw this at all, but I read an essay yesterday on Individual Morality in the Potterverse (http://www.livejournal.com/users/marinarusalka/157067.html) that I thought was quite excellent. The author spends most of the essay talking about Snape, Sirius, and Lupin and their own sense of what is moral and what is right and how that affects their actions, and made an interesting point that it's when each character fails to live up to his own self-prescribed morality that tragedy strikes (Sirius' misplacement of loyalty in Peter, Snape's abandonment of duty with Occlumency lessons, Remus literally losing his calm by not taking his potion in PoA), and I think (since it's been brought up again) James' actions in SWM also demonstrate this: James is a fighter of the Dark Arts, yet in this case he succumbs to the same behaviour in his actions towards Snape.

RemusLupinFan
March 24th, 2005, 9:48 pm
When has Lupin ever misdirected or given false information to suit his purposes? And does he do it on a consistent basis? I don't think he does. And without that consistency it is unfair to say that he's very good at twisting things around. One time does not make a continuous habit. Even two times makes a line, not a pattern.I agree, I don’t remember Lupin ever doing this. Of course, he doesn’t tell Harry about his condition, and he doesn’t want Harry to know about his connection with Harry’s father in PoA because he feels it would be inappropriate/awkward, but this is hardly misdirecting or giving false information.

And I agree that Lupin has an aura of secrecy. I think that's neccessary, especially if he's to be crucial to the plot later on. Almost all of the characters are shrouded in some mystery. It doesn't mean that that mystery is hiding a dark side.Exactly. Lupin needs some air of secrecy if he is to deal with the prejudice he faces as a werewolf. He is also not one to open up about personal things, and he’s not one to tell Harry personal information unless Harry asks about it.

I highly doubt that Lupin's entire sense of self was based upon James, Sirius and Peter. If that were true, he would have lost all sense of self and sanity when James died and he thought Peter died and Sirius was sent to Azkaban.I agree completely. I stronly believe that Lupin has a very strong sense of self, largely owing to the nature of his condition. I think I may have said this before, but Lupin's own identity is something that he uses as an anchor. He needs to, since it is his identity that he loses during his transformations. Therefore, I believe that Lupin has been able to develop a very individualistic, strong sense of who he is because this is precisely what he is forced to lose once a month. Immediately following his transformations, his human identity would be something for him to hold onto - like a lifeline - to reaffirm his humanity and sense of self.

Thus, I strongly believe that while Lupin needs his friends and needs the support his friends give to him, he does not need them to define his own unique identity. I see him as being more independent, someone who did not follow in Sirius' and James' shadow, which I believe might be a reason why McGonagall never mentions Remus when the trio overhears her talking about Sirius and James in The Three Broomsticks.

After the Potters' deaths, Peter's supposed death, and Sirius' imprisonment in Azkaban, I do imagine that Remus was quite upset. But from how he appears in PoA, he is still very much intact as a person. I see no evidence that his life just fell apart after these events. Of course they were tragic events that would have upset anybody, but Lupin is a survivor, and I do believe he was able to grieve and move on after a while. If he hadn't this would have been quite self-destructive, and I don't see any evidence to suggest this.

I think Lupin has always been in control of what he's able to control. Meaning he can't control the fact that he's a werewolf, but he can control his reaction to it. He could have choosen to take another route altogether from the one that he did in fact choose.:tu: Well-said.

SitDown
March 24th, 2005, 9:51 pm
They didn't see the possible consequences of their actions at the time. They didn't think about it/weren't concerned about it, says basically the same thing. Yes, Lupin trusted the others, apparently with good reason, because (aside from the SS incident) nothing did happen. But (and it is a big but) something could have. They describe it as fun, and they apparently didn't consider the ramifications of what they were doing, if they laughed about it afterwards. It was bad enough that Lupin thinks they were wrong.

Take it down to personal experience. We've (most of us, anyway) done reckless things, perhaps as teenagers, that could have had serious consequences. It was fun when we did it. Later, we looked back and said "Wow, that was (insert word here ie stupid reckless foolish). Lucky nothing happened." At the time, we weren't concerned. That doesn't change the nature of the act, though.

I think the difference in how you see it and how I see it, is they didn't think. You see Lupin as concerned about injuring someone, but thinking the marauders could handle it. I see it as lack of concern, because the marauders could handle it, without considering the possibility that they couldn't, and showing little concern after their close calls, as they continued the behavior. It just points in Lupin's favor that he could see how wrong it was as an adult, something that I'm not sure Sirius could do.

I am not so sure that we disagree.

First there is a difference between not seeing the consequences and seeing them but hoping that those consequences will not happen. This is what I tried to do with my presentation of the 4 forms of guilt. One is case 4 or even 5 if they did not have any possibility at all to see the consequences, the other is case 3, which leads to a more severe punishment!

Second, I was referring to subtle's post who said that the potential harm aded more fun, which implies that the marauders:
1. were aware of the dangers;
2. didn't think too much of it as their whole attitude was : the more dangerous it is, the better, the more fun!
3. thought that the danger and the potential to hurt someone was actually a lot of fun

And I don't think it was like that. They might have known that their actions might have lead to some dangerous situation or they might have not seen it ( this is why I said that Lupin's actions enter into category 3 or 4) but I don't think that they saw the danger as fun and they searched for some more dangerous situations. They just hoped and thought that the danger will not come. I don't think that they searched for it, nor do i think that they thought the danger made things more fun!

silver ink pot
March 24th, 2005, 9:52 pm
About Snape and Sirius and James, i didn't want to make any statement about them. I just wanted to present the four forms of guilt in the continental criminal law system in order to back up the idea that by acepting to run free with the marauders on the nights of the full moon, Lupin was not as guilty as someone suggested. he didn't seek danger and laughed of it, he didn't acept it either, he probably only hoped a little foolishly that the danger will not come based on the fact that his friends were animagi and could control him.

That's all i wanted to say! Now, if even a 10 years old knows everything about guilt, then I am really sorry that I lost your time with useless comments on the law's perspective on guilt!

I'm sorry, I truly am, if you think I was putting down your post in any way. :sad: Your post wasn't useless and I didn't read it that way. I wasn't trying to say that you were ten years old, or anything of the kind. I was thinking about it from a legal perspective, which is what I thought you wanted us to do. I was just explaining it from an American legal view that the idea of life and death is understood even by children, who sometimes stand trial as adults. I'm not saying that is right or good, but the way it is.

Most ten-year-olds do have a sense of right and wrong. Harry does, even though he hasn't had the best upbringing in the world. The Marauders were teenagers, and certainly old enough to understand right and wrong.

Lupin was wrong to laugh at the danger. He was young, too, but he feels more remorse about some of the things they did than Sirius does.

Besides that, it's really true that we can't assume all secrets are hiding something evil behind them. They might hide things that cause pain to Lupin. . . his past obviously brings a lot of painful memories, and we can hardly expect him to be a fountain of information regarding things which are very close to him personally

Yeah, you're certainly right about that. When Harry thinks that Snape is keeping secrets from him, he jumps into the Pensieve and sees only a painful memory, instead of some deep dark secret. But at least we know that Snape was at Hogwarts the last twelve years teaching potions. We have less than that about Lupin, yet everyone assumes that he has been doing so well. However, there is no canon about what he has been doing.

In a lot of cases, this is very true. Every person has some potential to do evil. However, the problem with philosophical and theological considerations in the case of evil is how exactly we define evil. And what degrees of evil exist in the world? Is a person like Lupin with an incurable condition that causes him to act against his natural behavior in a dangerous way really an evil person? And if he is, is he more or less evil than a person whose everyday, natural behavior is to go out and murder innocent people from a conscious decision? And is the pathological killer a better person if, after years in prison, has realized that his former behavior was wrong and has chosen to devote himself to good. . . than a person with a condition that, no matter how consciously he chooses to be a good person, he cannot physically overcome?

Theological and philosophical discussions of evil are never so easy as to say that we all have the possibility of evil within us, and that we can all choose to overcome it.

Avoiding the topic of evil won't make it go away. JKR has said that she is dealing with "shades of gray," everything from the "evil psychopath" Voldemort to the "epitomy of good" Dumbledore. In between there is everyone else. Some of Voldemort's followers are as "bad as he is" according to Dumbledore.

But it is a slippery slope to think that we have to "define evil" in order to discuss it. I've read posts here over the past year in which people say they laugh at Snape in SWM, because it reminds them of something that happened to someone, hahaha. And then there are people who say that his experience made them cry because something similar happened to them.

However, certain things are universally accepted as evil, if you ask me. Hurting a baby or child - evil. One of the most evil passages in all the books is when Bella Lestrange offers to torture Ginny in order to make Harry give up the prophecy. Tom Riddle tortures Ginny, too. That is evil, and I see no reason to define it any other way.

Killing a human being when it isn't self-defense - that's evil.

JKR has said that Uncle Vernon is the character she hates the most, and I think it is because he chooses to be mean to Harry instead of act as a father to him. Neglect, in her eyes, is another evil, I think.

clkginny
March 24th, 2005, 9:53 pm
I don't think that any of us were implying that Lupin is evil. If they did, I'm incredibly oblivious (this is quite possible). We did discuss that all human being (or wizards, if you will) have the capacity to do evil. We also discussed the fact that all human beings do have less than admirable traits.

Lupin has twisted/omitted the truth before. That doesn't neccessitate him being a bad person. It is likely a convenient tool for someone who is greeted with such prejudice by the wizarding world. I view this as similar to jews lying about their religion during the holocaust.

Lupin does have less than admirable traits, it makes his character more rich and interesting. The same with all these characters. (Oops, I think I'm repeating something I posted in the last page or two).

Anyway, I still don't think anyone was implying that Lupin is a bad person (wizard, werewolf, something).

SitDown
March 24th, 2005, 10:00 pm
by SIP Yeah, you're certainly right about that. When Harry thinks that Snape is keeping secrets from him, he jumps into the Pensieve and sees only a painful memory, instead of some deep dark secret. But at least we know that Snape was at Hogwarts the last twelve years teaching potions. We have less than that about Lupin, yet everyone assumes that he has been doing so well. However, there is no canon about what he has been doing.

I think he had a tough life because he probably could not find a job and he was pretty alone, but I think we can say that he has been doing pretty well mentally, seeing the person he is now and I think we can say that he has never been a follower or a tag alone without personality, just a part of the marauders, relying heavily on James and Sirius.

by SIP I'm sorry, I truly am, if you think I was putting down your post in any way. Your post wasn't useless and I didn't read it that way. I wasn't trying to say that you were ten years old, or anything of the kind. I was thinking about it from a legal perspective, which is what I thought you wanted us to do. I was just explaining it from an American legal view that the idea of life and death is understood even by children, who sometimes stand trial as adults. I'm not saying that is right or good, but the way it is.

Most ten-year-olds do have a sense of right and wrong. Harry does, even though he hasn't had the best upbringing in the world. The Marauders were teenagers, and certainly old enough to understand right and wrong.

Lupin was wrong to laugh at the danger. He was young, too, but he feels more remorse about some of the things they did than Sirius does.

It's ok.
The thing is that in the continental system even if you are aware of your actions, if you are 10 you will not be held responsible. so I don't know about this example. But never mind, going back to Lupin, I don't hink he was laughing at the danger, at the adventures he had had with the marauders yes, at the fun, no! I explained in an ealier post as a response to subtle!

clkginny
March 24th, 2005, 10:02 pm
1. were aware of the dangers;
They had enough close calls for Lupin to mention them. To me that means that they should have become aware of the danger. So, after a certain point, they were aware of the danger, yet they continued the behavior.

2. didn't think too much of them as their whole attitude was : the more gangerous it is, the better, the more fun!

This changes if you think about the close calls. They considered having more fun more important than their close calls. That, to me, implies that the danger, to them, made it more fun. However, that is an assumption.

You are right, we have the same idea, we just disagree on what point they should have realized what they were doing. I'm sure at the start they didn't realize (most kids don't) but they should have figured it out.

Credo Buffa
March 24th, 2005, 10:11 pm
However, certain things are universally accepted as evil, if you ask me. Hurting a baby or child - evil. One of the most evil passages in all the books is when Bella Lestrange offers to torture Ginny in order to make Harry give up the prophecy. Tom Riddle tortures Ginny, too. That is evil, and I see no reason to define it any other way.

Killing a human being when it isn't self-defense - that's evil.
Yes, there are certain things where the act itself is undoubtedly evil. But let me propose you this question:

The tsunami in southeast Asia killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. But was the tsunami evil? The tsunami wasn't conscious. . . it couldn't make the conscious decision to land somewhere that would cause ultimate death and destruction. The tsunami was a result of a natural occurrence--an earthquake--and without earthquakes, the nature of our planet would be completely different. Are earthquakes evil?

Now, let's look at a werewolf. A werewolf, when transformed, has no conscious choice to attack or not attack humans. Is he or she, then, evil? Is a cat who kills an innocent mouse because it is in his nature evil? Yes, the death of an innocent creature is tragic. . . perhaps even evil. . . but is the creature who initiated it evil if he cannot control that behavior?

The difference between the kind of evil of Tom Riddle, Uncle Vernon, etc. and the potential for "evil" in a person like Lupin are very different. Riddle and Uncle Vernon choose to do the things they do, and they don't feel remorse. We don't see the good ol' non-transformed Lupin going out and torturing and killing, do we? And if he were so unfortunate as to harm someone as a werewolf, would we blame his conscious, human mind the way we do Riddle and Vernon? Would it be fair?

So, you see, the question of evil is NEVER as simple as it may appear. There is always another way of looking at it.

HermioneLuna
March 24th, 2005, 10:12 pm
Lupin and Sirius told Harry that Lily hated James.

Actually, they tell Harry that Lily didn't hate James.

We don't know what Lupin did when James died. We don't really know what he did when Sirius was arrested. And there is certainly no information about his feelings toward Peter, except that he doesn't speak to him in SWM, and he is very cold towards him in the Shrieking Shack, and then tries to kill him.

So we don't know what effect all these things in the past have had on Lupin's life, because there are twelve years unaccounted for. There is absolutely no canon that Lupin has been "in control" of anything, even his own life, for those twelve years.

Then how did Lupin have any sense of self or any control once we meet him in PoA? Unless he latched on to another set of friends, which we know he didn't, he had to have some idea of who he was and he had to have some self control.


I agree completely. I stronly believe that Lupin has a very strong sense of self, largely owing to the nature of his condition. I think I may have said this before, but Lupin's own identity is something that he uses as an anchor. He needs to, since it is his identity that he loses during his transformations. Therefore, I believe that Lupin has been able to develop a very individualistic, strong sense of who he is because this is precisely what he is forced to lose once a month. Immediately following his transformations, his human identity would be something for him to hold onto - like a lifeline - to reaffirm his humanity and sense of self.

Thus, I strongly believe that while Lupin needs his friends and needs the support his friends give to him, he does not need them to define his own unique identity. I see him as being more independent, someone who did not follow in Sirius' and James' shadow, which I believe might be a reason why McGonagall never mentions Remus when the trio overhears her talking about Sirius and James in The Three Broomsticks.

After the Potters' deaths, Peter's supposed death, and Sirius' imprisonment in Azkaban, I do imagine that Remus was quite upset. But from how he appears in PoA, he is still very much intact as a person. I see no evidence that his life just fell apart after these events. Of course they were tragic events that would have upset anybody, but Lupin is a survivor, and I do believe he was able to grieve and move on after a while. If he hadn't this would have been quite self-destructive, and I don't see any evidence to suggest this.

:tu: That's a much better analysis than I gave.

Yeah, you're certainly right about that. When Harry thinks that Snape is keeping secrets from him, he jumps into the Pensieve and sees only a painful memory, instead of some deep dark secret. But at least we know that Snape was at Hogwarts the last twelve years teaching potions. We have less than that about Lupin, yet everyone assumes that he has been doing so well. However, there is no canon about what he has been doing.


Lack of canon does not mean that Lupin fell apart. There just hasn't been a place for his entire story yet, but I think it will come. Lupin is not someone who is defined soley by the company he keeps. He is his own person and losing someone, even someone close to him, will not erase his identity. We saw him after Sirius fell, and he wasn't a helpless heap. Is it so unreasonable to believe that what he saw then was also similiar to his reaction when he heard the widely circulated version of the night of the Potter's deaths?

Mugglelvr
March 24th, 2005, 10:18 pm
I also don't think that Lupin talking badly about Umbridge means that he has a darker side. I mean, if every person who at some point protests against another person's actions, or comments on them, or talks badly about another person, who has done some pretty bad things to him/her is evil or has a dark side, then the entire population of the Earth would be bad, evil and with a dark side.

Good point! We really don't know what Lupin might have said about Umbridge.

"I know she's a nasty piece of work, though - you should hear Remus talk about her."
"Does Lupin know her," asked Harry quickly, remembering Umbridge's comments about dangerous half-breeds during her first lesson.
"No," said Sirius, "but she drafted a bit of anit-werewolf legislation two years ago that makes it almost impossible for him to get a job." (OotP, pg 302.)

The passage doesn't say exactly what Lupin told Sirius about Umbridge, but who could blame him for anything he might have said about the old bat. Harry noted that Lupin's clothes looked shabbier then they had two years before when he taught at Hogwarts, (but that could also be for the fact that he ruins a perfectly good suit every full moon.)

Actually, I used to own a wolf several years ago. They make very good pets if you get them when they are pups and train them.

subtle science
March 24th, 2005, 10:25 pm
Where and when did anybody start a discussion of Lupin's hidden side (aka dark side, aka negative qualities, aka less positive side.........) as being evidence of his being evil? Wasn't that precisely what we all were not doing when this conversation started?

Looking back over PoA and OotP, it's interesting to see there is a pattern of Lupin's use of verbal sleight of hand. In PoA, he's hiding the truth of what he knows about Sirius, and he's really quite good at turning aside any further inquiries from Harry--even, as I've pointed out before, when the topic is the one that Harry is arguably the most curious about: James.

"Why--you didn't know my dad, did you?"
"I--I did, as a matter of fact," said Lupin. "We were friends at Hogwarts. Listen, Harry--perhaps we should elave it here for tonight. This charm is ridiculously advanced....." (p. 241, PoA, US paper).

Harry tries to return to the subject at the end of the lesson, and gets deflected again:

"If you knew my dad, you must've known Sirius Black as well."
Lupin turned very quickly.
"What gives you that idea?" he said sharply.
"Nothing--I mean, I just knew they were friends at Hogwarts too...."
Lupin's face relaxed.
"Yes, I knew him," he said shortly. "Or I thought I did. You'd better be off, Harry; it's getting late" (p. 243).

After Lupin takes the Marauders' Map from Snape, he does an excellent job of avoiding the key piece of information: he was one of the map's creators. Somehow, he conveys the sense that he knows a great deal about the map, yet does not clarify how he knows this--even when asked directly by Harry:

"I happen to know that this map was confiscated by Mr. Filch many years ago. Yes, I know it's a map," he said as Harry and Ron looked amazed. "I don't want to know how it fell into your possession....

"Why did Snape think I'd got it from the manufacturers?"
"Because...," Lupin hesitated, "because these mapmakers would have wanted to lure you out of school. They'd think it extremely entertaining."
"Do you know them?" said Harry, impressed.
"We've met," he said shortly. He was looking at Harry more seriously than before.
"Don't expect me to cover up for you again, Harry. I cannot make you take Sirius Black seriously...." (pp. 289-290).

In OotP, Lupin's misdirection is reduced tremendously--he does it twice, each time in the company of Sirius, and each time for very specific reasons.

The first is at 12GP, when Harry's inquiry into Voldemort's purpose is shut down by the pair: Harry isn't to know about the prophecy, so the two men communicate with a look, and Sirius does the (vague) talking. Lupin keeps his mouth quite shut, although he was the one earlier to cast the deciding vote to allow Harry to ask questions.What he said then explains what he and Sirus do next: "I think it better that Harry gets the facts--not all the facts, Molly, but the general picture--from us, rather than a garbled version from...others" (p. 89, OotP, US hardcover). On p. 96, Sirius and Lupin hit the point of not all the facts--they can't go against what we can presume are orders from Dumbledore:
"What's he after apart from followers," Harry asked swiftly.
He thought he saw Sirius and Lupin exchange the most fleeting of looks before Sirius said, "Stuff he can only get by stealth."

[I love the feeble choice of "Stuff"--Sirius definitely is nowhere near as good at this as Lupin is! : ) ]

The next look comes in the aftermath of Harry's Pensieve dive; Sirius and Lupin aren't exactly eager to discuss SWM--they get caught quite off guard and this is not a pleasant topic to have to talk about, so there is a good bit of evasiveness as they work out a response, after their surprise:

"I'm not proud of it," said Sirius quickly.
Lupin looked sideways at Sirius and then said, "Look, Harry, what you've got to understand...." (p. 670).

It's interesting that the vast majority of Lupin's misdirection and omissions are for personal reasons: his friendship with James and Sirius; there's one instance of Order 'need-to-know' censorship. Looking at these makes me wonder if we get a little insight into Lupin of long ago, trying to keep his lycanthropy secret from his new friends--basically, Lupin lies, but it's to protect himself:

"Now my three friends could hardly fail to notice that I disappeared once a month. I made up all sorts of stories. I told them my mother was ill, and that I had to go home to see her....I was terrified they would desert me the moment they found out what I was. But of course, they, like you, Hermione, worked out the truth....
And they didn't desert me at all" (p. 354, PoA, US paper).

Lupin gives information in the books that is not personal--he'll explain dementors and Patronus Charms, etc., etc.--but he'll slam the door on information about himself. I think this is a major insight into his character: a nearly life-long habit, bred of the werewolf bite and, also, vital to his making his way through wizarding society. Side benefit: he's really good with Order secrets, too.

By the way...just to clarify: I don't for a minute believe all this makes him evil. In case you were wondering. : ) !!!!!!!!!!!!

SitDown
March 24th, 2005, 10:25 pm
Actually, I used to own a wolf several years ago. They make very good pets if you get them when they are pups and train them.

I don't think they are supposed to be pets! They are wild, beautiful, intelligent animals who should run free. what happened to your wolf?

HermioneLuna
March 24th, 2005, 10:35 pm
I think it all depends on if you believe in an "innocent until proven guilty" attitude or the opposite. Where's the canon evidence that says he wasn't in control during those years? Where's the canon evidence that he did anything at all in those years? For all we knew, he was living under a rock in Siberia. He might have been a transvestite showgirl in Atlantic City. He might have been feeding starving orphans in Africa. We don't know--for good or bad--what he was doing, so it hardly seems like we can consider the fact that we have a big hole in his history as evidence of evil in his character.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Subtle science, with all those quotes, Lupin was trying to hide the fact that he knew James, which I think is perfectly understandable, even after Harry knew. Lupin was trying to maintain a teacher/student relationship with one of his students and, under the circumstances, I think he felt it was best. Many years before, he had a bond with Harry and it must have been very difficult to act as though he were Harry's DADA teacher and not Harry's father's best friend.

By talking to Harry about James and they're time at Hogwarts, Lupin would have crossed from being Harry's favorite teacher to being someone who knew Harry's dad. Dumbledore didn't bring Lupin into Hogwarts to be Harry's connection to his parents, he brought Lupin in to teach and help the students prepare themselves. Lupin understood that.

All Lupin was doing was trying not to force himself into Harry's life while still being there for him as a teacher. Also, not giving Harry full details of his time at Hogwarts is not misdirection. Lupin was completely honest, even if he didn't volunteer to have a question and answer session with Harry.