Character Analysis: Remus Lupin

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rotsiepots
April 5th, 2005, 11:05 am
Right.

Hopefully with a more specific title, all ye Lupin fans will be reminded to stay on topic. Previous versions of the "All About Remus Lupin" threads can be found by utilising our friend the search (http://www.cosforums.com/search.php) function.

Any off-topic behaviour, or members who post links to inappropriate sites will be punished severely.

Start analysing.

ramzk
April 5th, 2005, 11:16 am
i dont know who oyur talking about the lupin in the movies or in the stories though i am not a big fan of his.

Mugglelvr
April 5th, 2005, 12:01 pm
Remus Lupin is:

His character is a lot like Harry's in that the reader feels for him. He's had a hard life and faced many obstacles, yet still maintains hope and kindness to others. He is the poster child for Dumbledore's speech to Harry about choices. Lupin could have easily given up on his condition and chose to follow Voldemort instead of siding with Dumbledore. After all, Voldemort's penchant for Dark Magic might have given Lupin hope that he could be cured of his supposedly, incurable condition through Dark Magic. Yet, Lupin never gave up on siding with Dumbledore and staying true to his friends. He learned to deal with his condition in the best way he could.

He's a good man, and hopefully he can find peace with all that has happened - losing his friends because of Wormtail's betrayal - and living as an outcast in a society that looks at him as an anomaly because he doesn't fit the mold prescribed by those who make the decisions. I think Dumbledore trusts Lupin completely and has faith in who he is and what he stands for - which I believe will eventually earn Lupin much more respect in the Wizarding World.

goldennib
April 5th, 2005, 1:20 pm
Mugglelvr - I agree with all you have said. To me he is more than just a survivor. He seems to have lost everything. Where is his family? Are they all dead or did he give them up so he wouldn't hurt them? He is not pushy. He's like Dumbledore in that. He lets people be themselves. He is very sensitive to the needs of others. They way he treated Neville was one of the things that made Lupin my favorite characters.

He will get closer to Harry because Lupin knows things that Harry needs to know about James, Lily and Sirius that only a friend from childhood would know.

He is the strong, silent type. And the big, important thing that you mentioned is what I think he embodies - hope.

He is ready to do what he feels must be done (capture/kill Sirius when he thought Sirius was guilty - same for Peter - but in each case his duty was tempered with intelligent compassion.)

He has shown that he is smart (Madame Pomfrey was suprised he knew chocolate relieved dementor stress) he's powerful (he was able to fight a dementor even in his continued weakened state) and he is shown to be forgiving (he does not hold a grudge despite the fact that Snape is worse to him than, as far as we know, Lupin ever was to Snape.)

Got to go to work now, yuck, but Lupin is my favorite character and I vote for him as the next Minister of Magic.

Im Mental
April 5th, 2005, 1:41 pm
Well, lupin is a 'character'. I see why he has so many 'fans' here. He showed Harry kindness, and the fatherly love he never had. So we love him for that, for taking him and showing him kindness, and giving him small peeks into his parents world.
BUT, the other side of lupin is shady. Meaning, what does he do with his time. He has admited he can't find work. I'm curious how, at a school of children, he can 'forget' to take his potion, putting ALL those children in danger he was responsible for. Does he forget what he does in wolf form? Who knows what he does.
I think there is a lot more to him, and no one wants to hear this, but it might not all be good. Not saying he is a Voldy, or a DE....we know he is not fighting in the MOM against the bad side. Just saying, I hope too many people aren't shocked at what we find out later.

Mcpherson
April 5th, 2005, 1:59 pm
Well, lupin is a 'character'. I see why he has so many 'fans' here. He showed Harry kindness, and the fatherly love he never had. So we love him for that, for taking him and showing him kindness, and giving him small peeks into his parents world.
BUT, the other side of lupin is shady. Meaning, what does he do with his time. He has admited he can't find work. I'm curious how, at a school of children, he can 'forget' to take his potion, putting ALL those children in danger he was responsible for. Does he forget what he does in wolf form? Who knows what he does..

He forgot it because he was away from the castle and he discovered thanks to the Marauders Map that his late friend Peter is miraculously alive and with the trio. Lupin followe them because he was curious but also unsure if the kids willl be allright, espeecially when Sirius 'the killer' was nearby. So Lupin went out to save the trio, though he didn't know that it will take such a long time to 'rescue' them.

I think there is a lot more to him, and no one wants to hear this, but it might not all be good. Not saying he is a Voldy, or a DE....we know he is not fighting in the MOM against the bad side. Just saying, I hope too many people aren't shocked at what we find out later.

Rowling feels greatly for Remus, and says he has got many common features with her. Do you think she could make herself evil? And also, it would be too much for Harry - to loose Sirius, find out that Pettigrew is a traitor of the Potters and that Lupin is a spy/evil character.

Mrs Flamel
April 5th, 2005, 2:21 pm
Well! Here we are!

First of all, rotsiepots, I'd like to thank you for this thread. I think it will be very comfortable in here. I appreciate your listening to us (despite how annoying we may have been) and allowing a thread dedicated to our favorite werewolf, Remus J. Lupin.

So, to the members of the old AARL thread, let's take this as an opportunity to start from scratch and get some fresh opinions into our Remus discussions! Remember to keep the off-topic discussion in the Shrieking Shack. I'm glad to see we may already have some new people to talk about Remus with! Hi!

Mugglelvr, yes, Harry and Remus have a lot in common. Both are burdened with situations they didn't ask for, and both feel the need to distance themselves from others because of it. I agree with everyone who says Remus is a role model--and I believe that's exactly what JKR intended for him. He's not perfect by any means; he has made mistakes. It will be interesting to see how he learns from them and how those mistakes pan out for him later.

He is Harry's last strong link to his past. I see Remus and Harry growing closer. When they met, Remus was Harry's professor, and their relationship had to stay, well mostly, professional. Then Sirius was there, and Remus was the type to let Sirius step into his role of godfather, despite the fact that Remus knew Harry better. Now that Sirius is gone, I believe Remus is a natural choice for Harry to look to as a father figure. Other possibilities either didn't know his parents as well, or already have other roles in Harry's life (I'm thinking of Arthur, Albus, and Hagrid in particular here.)

ImMental, I want you to knwow that I for one don't mind a dissenting opinion! I also think there's alot about Remus we don't know--we'll have fun debating what that may be! ;) Please don't feel you can't disagree with all the rampant Lupin-lovers around here. I for one love great debates.

I can't go into too much more right now, but I'll be back later to see how we're all doing.

kingwidgit
April 5th, 2005, 2:55 pm
ImMental, I want you to knwow that I for one don't mind a dissenting opinion! I also think there's alot about Remus we don't know--we'll have fun debating what that may be! ;) Please don't feel you can't disagree with all the rampant Lupin-lovers around here. I for one love great debates.
I have to agree. Remus is not perfect and has made mistakes. He is a human after all, and even Harry and Dumbledore make mistakes. Most of us are hoping to see Remus take on a more significant role in the HBP! I'm am currently re-reading the entire series of HP books in hopes of catching foreshadowing I may have missed.
Debate is a good thing--none of the HP characters are perfect, and true, in-depth analysis of the pros/cons of a character is what CoS forums is about, so please don't feel unwelcome to post opposing opinions.

LinnendeBlack
April 5th, 2005, 3:56 pm
I'd also like to thank rotsiepots and the rest of the mods for opening this thread. :)

I agree, Harry and Remus have a lot in common, and I believe they will become quite close in the next books.

I know that not everyone from the Lyceum are here yet, but could I ask that we discuss our Remus = HBP theories? Not necessarily now but in the not so distant future? I need some food for my arguments. :D
Thanks everyone.

aCiDxXxdRoP
April 5th, 2005, 6:23 pm
Thank you very much rotsiepots! I'm really sorry for being a brat. But thanks again for opening up this thread. =hands head in shame=

Remus as HBP: I don't really know. There's not much evidence that I can think of that would support or deny this theory.

I really do hope that him and Harry will become closer. He's the closest link to his parents/godfather. I just hope Harry won't be as stubborn, but instead willing to accept help and guidance. We hardly know anything about Lupin, and this would be a great opportunity to get a closer look at him and his past etc...

urquhartfay
April 5th, 2005, 6:57 pm
hi all!

to get conversation going, i'm just gonna drag in some ideas that came up in the shrieking shack...

remus' impact on people: how does it manifest itself?
loup: And don't forget the mentions of Lupin in scenes where he isn't present himself, because the ways in which other characters perceive him are oftentimes as revealing as his own words and actions.

very true. even when he isn't mentioned, i find it interesting to look at the lasting effect he had on people after poa. how is harry different after his first, second, third meeting with remus? how is he different after poa? and people like dean thomas, and ron and hermione? with hermione, for example, you see her comparing the mistreatment of house elves to the mistreatment of werewolves. would she have said that before she met remus? her reaction to him in the shrieking shack tells me no. i think after getting to know remus her eyes were opened to the plight of the oppressed in an entirely new way. she was sensitized to it at the beginning of gof when she saw winky being mistreated. perhaps even at that moment she made the connection to werewolves, recalling her indignation at how remus had been treated.any more thoughts on this? how has harry been impacted by remus, for example? we've discussed that in the shrieking shack when he stops them from killing peter, that may also be the effect of remus. earlier, he wanted to kill sirius or to have him get the dementor's kiss, and remus made him think about it. so harry's eyes, it seems, have been opened to the concept of mercy - a powerful character trait of remus.

lupin and muggle literature, or really remus and the muggle world altogether.

this is a bit more general, but being a half-blood...well, first of all, do we think he is really exactly half, i.e. that one parent was a muggle and the other magical, or half in the sense that harry is half, where his mom was a witch but of muggle heritage?

assuming the former, what kind of life would he have lead previous to hogwarts? do you think he went to muggle primary school? that would have been tough after he got the bite. how well would he know muggle culture? we've speculated he might have found work in the muggle world when the magic world shunned him. if he has had lots of dealings with the muggle world of that intensity, it would make him an ideal leader (thinking hbp... :eyebrows: ). think of king arthur, brought up as the adopted son of a common knight, or henry v, who disguised himself and went out among his troops to see what their life and mood were like.

i'm just throwing out lots of ideas here...take whatever you like and run with it...

hobbitseeker
April 5th, 2005, 7:34 pm
First off: YAY! :clap: I am so happy to have a Remus Lupin thread back! Thanks to rotsiepots for her kindness in reopening the thread!

I am assuming all of you former Lyceum members received the OWL from rotsiepots about this thread. I'm sure we all can be respectful towards the mods and everyone else in these forums--after all, we're here to discuss the Potterverse, not bicker amongst ourselves about outside things. I hope we can all continue to use the Shrieking Shack thread for off-topic posts.

hi all!

to get conversation going, i'm just gonna drag in some ideas that came up in the shrieking shack...

remus' impact on people: how does it manifest itself?
any more thoughts on this? how has harry been impacted by remus, for example? we've discussed that in the shrieking shack when he stops them from killing peter, that may also be the effect of remus. earlier, he wanted to kill sirius or to have him get the dementor's kiss, and remus made him think about it. so harry's eyes, it seems, have been opened to the concept of mercy - a powerful character trait of remus.

I also think Remus really helped Harry with his self-confidence. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Harry had ever told another adult he was afraid before he told Lupin that. Remus was trustworthy enough in Harry's eyes for Harry to be able to tell Remus very personal things like the fact that he could hear his mother screaming when the Dementors came close. And instead of just commiserating, Remus gave Harry the tools with which to conquer his own fears and find strength within himself. I think in real life we often spend so much time focusing on the sad, depressing, awful aspects of our life that we forget to look at our strengths and the good things that have happened to us. I think Remus teaching Harry the Patronus was more than just teaching a charm--it was teaching Harry to be positive, even when so much is going wrong; to find happiness and strength within himself when darkness is all around him. I think this is an important lesson, and definitely one Harry will need to draw upon in the coming books. And I think Remus will be there to help Harry cope with the death of Sirius and the pain of greiving, and also help Harry see beyond his pain and look at his future in a positve light.

Sabine Serpente
April 5th, 2005, 7:37 pm
First of all, I would like to thank the general COS Authority for giving us this shiny new thread. Grrliz and Rotsiepots, I do hope the OWL dialogue was not annoying. I was trying my hardest to be respectful, rather than coming across like an irritating brat. Thank you for the new home!
**decorates house**

I do think that Remus had one muggle parent, and one magical. It seems fitting for him. I also think he might have attended muggle school prior to his Hogwarts education.

Regarding discussion topics: I know on Lyceum XI we were beginning to discuss the shrieking shack scene again. We could always continue that... :)

Credo Buffa
April 5th, 2005, 7:55 pm
this is a bit more general, but being a half-blood...well, first of all, do we think he is really exactly half, i.e. that one parent was a muggle and the other magical, or half in the sense that harry is half, where his mom was a witch but of muggle heritage?
I think I'm more inclined to the latter, partially because I like to think of the parallels between Harry and Lupin, and partially because of his comment in PoA that his parents "tried everything" to find some help for his lycanthropy. . . granted, a muggle parent would be no less likely to want to help his/her son in this situation, but I somehow see them both as being magical and being able to properly search for solutions in the wizarding world (obviously, a muggle searching for help in the muggle world doesn't make a whole lot of sense).

I do like your King Arthur analogy, and it would be a particular advantage, especially for an HBP type character ;) , to have that direct experience with muggles. . . or, as you say with Arthur, the "common" people. It was, after all, the common people who supported Arthur in the first place. . .

Oooo! So exciting! Not only do we have a Lupin thread again, but I've got the Arthurian lit background now so I feel so much more at home being able to compare Lupin's character to Arthurian myth. :)

hobbitseeker
April 5th, 2005, 7:57 pm
Well, lupin is a 'character'. I see why he has so many 'fans' here. He showed Harry kindness, and the fatherly love he never had. So we love him for that, for taking him and showing him kindness, and giving him small peeks into his parents world.
BUT, the other side of lupin is shady. Meaning, what does he do with his time. He has admited he can't find work. I'm curious how, at a school of children, he can 'forget' to take his potion, putting ALL those children in danger he was responsible for. Does he forget what he does in wolf form? Who knows what he does.
I think there is a lot more to him, and no one wants to hear this, but it might not all be good. Not saying he is a Voldy, or a DE....we know he is not fighting in the MOM against the bad side. Just saying, I hope too many people aren't shocked at what we find out later.

Hi Im Mental! Please don't worry about saying negative things about Lupin here--that's what a discussion thread is all about! You asked what Lupin does with his time. A lot of us Lupin fans believe that Lupin has a leadership role within the Order of the Phoenix. For example, he led the advance guard when they picked up Harry from Privet Drive. He also is the only Order member we know of who has a key to the house at Grimmauld Place--the other Order members have to knock. Lupin also plays a key role in the Department of Mysteries--namely, he battles Lucius Malfoy and he is the only Order member left standing at the end, and Dumbledore charges him with taking care of the other members while DD deals with Voldemort and Harry. So I think Lupin's Order duties keep him quite busy at the moment.

I think McPherson answered your second question about Lupin forgetting his potion quite well. I understand how Lupin, shocked upon seeing his dead friend Peter miraculously alive on the Marauder's Map, and then also noticing that Sirius Black was on Hogwarts grounds, would probably forget everything else at that moment in order to try to figure out what was going on and to help his students, namely Ron, Harry and Hermione, who he saw of the map. I think in his rush to help the Trio and find out how Peter managed to still be alive, the Wolfsbane potion simply slipped Remus' mind. We know Remus felt incredibly guilty about the slip, and even preemptively quit his job in order to ensure that he would never put the students in danger again. If Remus were truly 'evil', would he have quit his job? I personally think Remus is a good man--complex, yes, but not evil.

Chocolate and tea for all! :)

Loup Garou
April 5th, 2005, 7:59 pm
I know that not everyone from the Lyceum are here yet, but could I ask that we discuss our Remus = HBP theories? Not necessarily now but in the not so distant future? I need some food for my arguments. :D
Thanks everyone.

Here once again is the notorious link to Elf's (and my, to a lesser degree) early ideas on this subject:

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1476708&postcount=1288

Read all the included links in chronological order if you'd like to get a sense of the progression of the theory. As always, understand that the theory has evolved considerably beyond this point and will probably continue to do so, although that does not mean that we've discarded these concepts, merely folded them into an increasingly larger whole.

LinnendeBlack
April 5th, 2005, 8:02 pm
Thank you Loup! I'll go and read it now. :)

Remsy Luck
April 5th, 2005, 9:10 pm
Hello eevryone! :D
First and foremost, many thanks to rotsiepots and all the COS mods for giving us a new thread in which discuss Remus Lupin's character.
We did make mistakes and I apologise. We'll try our best to behave as we should and to not give you any more problems.


hi all!

to get conversation going, i'm just gonna drag in some ideas that came up in the shrieking shack...

remus' impact on people: how does it manifest itself?
any more thoughts on this? how has harry been impacted by remus, for example? we've discussed that in the shrieking shack when he stops them from killing peter, that may also be the effect of remus. earlier, he wanted to kill sirius or to have him get the dementor's kiss, and remus made him think about it. so harry's eyes, it seems, have been opened to the concept of mercy - a powerful character trait of remus.



Exactly.
To me, Harry learning the concept of mercy was one of the greatest impact Lupin had on him.
Not only Harry went from thinking Sirius deserving of the Kiss, to sparing Peter. IMHO, Peter came off as being guilty of even more of what irius was accused of (he framed one of his best friends too, and we can assume he tried to make the other pass as a traitor back in the first war).
So much worst, yet Harry granted him mercy. See what an impact Remus in fact had on him?


The part that most of all, always hit me about POA and Harry's behaviro is how he totally changed his ways around Lupin. The guarded teenager we got to knew, was ready to confide his greatest fears and weakness to a teacher he barely knew.
Remus was able to inspire immediate trust inside Harry's well guarded (and probabaly rightfully so) heart.
Remember no one else achieved that, beside Sirius.
But the big difference is that Sirius gained it by being revealed James' best friend and Harry's Godfather, while Remus gained it just by being him.
I think it0s REALLY important how Harry DIDN'T know who Remus was til after he already trusted him.

urquhartfay
April 5th, 2005, 10:24 pm
hobbitseeker: I think Remus teaching Harry the Patronus was more than just teaching a charm--it was teaching Harry to be positive, even when so much is going wrong; to find happiness and strength within himself when darkness is all around him.which reminds me of dd's line (in the film) where he says exactly that - that even in the darkest of times we can be happy if we turn on the light. this takes us back to remus and light/fire/candles - holding the ball of flames on the train to illuminate, lighting candles with his hands. and as someone who has suffered so much, his lighthearted, mischievious, loving approach to life proves that he is the expert in being happy in spite of adversity, finding joy in spite of the darkness.

remsyluck: But the big difference is that Sirius gained it by being revealed James' best friend and Harry's Godfather, while Remus gained it just by being him.how true! which is why, i believe, it will be relatively natural for harry to open up to him again now that sirius is gone. he is, in fact, the more appropriate father figure (although with sirius wemust remember, harry never got a chance to get to know him before he was revealed as his godfather, so who knows, he might have opened up to him, but i think remus is way more the type.)

goodnight everyone! hitting the sack...

Credo Buffa
April 5th, 2005, 10:28 pm
The part that most of all, always hit me about POA and Harry's behaviro is how he totally changed his ways around Lupin. The guarded teenager we got to knew, was ready to confide his greatest fears and weakness to a teacher he barely knew.
Remus was able to inspire immediate trust inside Harry's well guarded (and probabaly rightfully so) heart.
Remember no one else achieved that, beside Sirius.
But the big difference is that Sirius gained it by being revealed James' best friend and Harry's Godfather, while Remus gained it just by being him.
I think it0s REALLY important how Harry DIDN'T know who Remus was til after he already trusted him.
This is a fabulous observation. Harry does tell his friends a lot, but the only person with whom we really see him going into detail about those things closest to him--his parents, his fears of the dementors, etc.--besides Sirius is Lupin. And, as you say, this is even before Harry knows about how close Lupin and his parents were. I think it really shows that 1) Harry definitely needed an adult figure in his life that he could go to with these deeper issues, and 2) Lupin not only fits that role, but is apparently pretty good at it, or Harry wouldn't continue to look to him.

Harry was sort of at that point in PoA, and is now again that Sirius is gone, where he had a choice as to who he might attach himself to as far as adult figures in his life, and he definitely had a few options: Mr. and Mrs Weasley and Dumbledore, in particular. But even without any prior connections, Lupin became that person for quite a long time until Sirius came along.

Lupin apparently has something that Harry needed in an adult figure that he couldn't find with the other adults in his life. Part of it is undoubtedly Lupin's sympathetic nature, his willingness to listen, and his ability to give practical aid, but not to solve his problems for him. But I think there's probably the deeper connection which you allude to, Remsy, which is much more evident in retrospect but I think still brought them together in the first place. Not only is there that connection with Harry's parents, but the fact that they have a lot of other things in common as well: losing the same people to Voldemort, feeling and being treated like outcasts for most of their lives, and struggling to overcome those obstacles just to try and lead a more-or-less normal life, which is what I think they both want when it comes right down to it. I think that's a big part of that "unspoken" connection that brought Harry to Lupin in the first place.

potionsmistress21
April 5th, 2005, 10:48 pm
Hi all, I also like to say that I don't think that Lupin is the HBP, but I love him non the less. I have to agree with Credo Buffa that Harry is wanting an adult figure it is just that he is not sure where to turn. Everytime Harry finds someone, like Sirius, they end up dead somehow. I think that Lupin is just the person that Harry needs, he's not perfect, but then who is.

goldennib
April 5th, 2005, 11:01 pm
Sorry everyone, but I haven't figured out how to quote more than one person at a time yet.

CredoBuffa, I like King Arthur too, but Harry reminds me of King Arthur and Lupin reminds me of one of his knights (I'm horrible with names and I can't think of the one I want right now.) In Arthurian legend he was closer to Arthur's age than Lupin is, maybe Kaye, his stepbrother, a little older, but faithful and always there when he needs him.

HobbitSeeker and McPherson, I think you got the reason for Lupin missing his potion down pat. In his concern for Harry and his friends, he forgot about himself and forgot about protecting himself, because the potion was as much disguise as it was to prevent Lupin form hurting others.

urquhartfay - Lupin is a great support for Harry and he's not pushy. That's one of the things I really like about him. When he first came to Hogwarts he did not force his relationship on Harry or say OO OO you're Harry Potter, I knew your parents aren't I special. He was laid back and let his relationship with Harry develop naturally. And then when Sirius came into the picture he allowed that relationship to florish without his interference. And now that Sirius is gone he can be a friend and support to Harry.

I know alot of people think the theme of the books is love, or choice or friendship and they are all in there, but I think another major theme is hope and Lupin is the pinnacle of hope. He has taken what life has given him and made the very best he could out of it. One of my favorite sayings is: Life *****, now get over it and get on with it.

It means things happen, you acknowledge it and move on.

I picture Lupin standing outside on a spring morning when the air is fresh and clear, with his face towards the sun, in pure joy and being thankful.

I think Lupin is in for a cure. He will be the final Minister of Magic, find a nice witch, settle down and have babies.

Mugglelvr
April 5th, 2005, 11:19 pm
This is a fabulous observation. Harry does tell his friends a lot, but the only person with whom we really see him going into detail about those things closest to him--his parents, his fears of the dementors, etc.--besides Sirius is Lupin. And, as you say, this is even before Harry knows about how close Lupin and his parents were. I think it really shows that 1) Harry definitely needed an adult figure in his life that he could go to with these deeper issues, and 2) Lupin not only fits that role, but is apparently pretty good at it, or Harry wouldn't continue to look to him.

I agree totally - Harry needs not only an adult figure, but a strong male figure in his life. He sort of had that with Sirius, but because Sirius was in hiding, he couldn't really be there for Harry when he needed him most - as in his trials through GoF, when Harry had to be constantly on guard because his name was put in the goblet by someone, and Sirius couldn't be there for advice and support. Harry could have used Lupin at that time. Maybe now, with all they've gone through together, they can form a closer bond and Lupin can be the male figure Harry needs in his life, and Harry can be the one person who Lupin can feel really cares about him and trusts him to be there. I believe if Lupin had someone to depend on him, like a parent, it would be a big morale boost for him because I don't think he's ever had anyone who really depended on him.

Harry was sort of at that point in PoA, and is now again that Sirius is gone, where he had a choice as to who he might attach himself to as far as adult figures in his life, and he definitely had a few options: Mr. and Mrs Weasley and Dumbledore, in particular. But even without any prior connections, Lupin became that person for quite a long time until Sirius came along.

I think too that even when Sirius was still alive, Harry looked to Lupin for advice. At Grimmauld Place, Lupin was the voice of reason in several situations - he stood up for Harry when Mrs. Weasley and Sirius argued over whether Harry should be told anything, he helped Sirius explain about SWM, and why James treated Snape the way he did. Lupin explained all this in a kind and gentle way. I thought it was quite touching how Sirius and Lupin talked about James in such a fond way - as in how he used to mess up his hair for Lily. Even though Harry was very upset, I think this scene was important in how Harry perceived his father, and how much he valued Lupin and Sirius's counsel. Also, Lupin kept the meeting calm when Sirius said he was going to go to Hogwarts and make Snape keep giving Harry Occluency. Lupin was the level headed one.

Lupin has been great with Harry since their first meeting on the train. Well, he was really great with all the kids, helping Neville by building his confidence with the Boggart, but especially with Harry. I know when Lupin took the position at Hogwarts he had to know that Harry was there. I wonder what he thought about seeing him, and how close he was to Harry before James and Lily's death? I imagine it was quite a shock for Lupin to wake up on the train and see Harry there, probably sooner then he'd planned - the ghost of his dead best friend at the age of thirteen. It probably was a very difficult moment for Lupin, really.

marebear02
April 5th, 2005, 11:22 pm
I also don't really think that Lupin could possibly be the HBP. I could, however, be completely wrong about that. I do think that Lupin will play a more important role in the upcoming books for Harry. He is the only link left to Harry's parents and Harry needs that so that he can learn more things about Lilly and James. I also think that Lupin may play a role in helping Harry come to terms with the prophecy and help him prepare for the defeat of LV. Lupin, who has played a small role to this point, will most liley play a bigger and more important role in upcoming books. I am just hoping that since he is the last link to Lilly and James for Harry that he will not killed in book 6 or even book 7.

Loup Garou
April 5th, 2005, 11:25 pm
I also think Remus really helped Harry with his self-confidence. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Harry had ever told another adult he was afraid before he told Lupin that. Remus was trustworthy enough in Harry's eyes for Harry to be able to tell Remus very personal things like the fact that he could hear his mother screaming when the Dementors came close.

Harry had pretty much never willingly told another adult anything before that moment, let alone confided his fears in one. Compare how he opens up to Lupin with how he avoids telling Dumbledore about Tom Riddle until the aftermath of the battle in the Chamber of Secrets. Harry knows DD is trustworthy and even shared a touching personal moment with him at the end of PS/SS, but he just can't bring himself to take that next step towards emotional intimacy with him. Conversely, shortly after the start of his first office visit with Remus, he's ready to blurt out all of his fears about the Dementors and would have done so, had the two not been interrupted at that very moment. He senses qualities in this teacher that he has never encountered before, and they certainly do boost his self-confidence.

I think that JKR is tackling a controversial issue here and not agreeing with the most conventionally popular side of it. She's using Harry's almost instant rapport with Lupin to demonstrate that boys grow best when they have father figures in their lives, whether they be biological progenitors or not. Before Remus, only Uncle Vernon and Snape even remotely qualified as men of a proper age to serve this function. I doubt most of us here would want Harry to follow in their footsteps.

And instead of just commiserating, Remus gave Harry the tools with which to conquer his own fears and find strength within himself. I think in real life we often spend so much time focusing on the sad, depressing, awful aspects of our life that we forget to look at our strengths and the good things that have happened to us. I think Remus teaching Harry the Patronus was more than just teaching a charm--it was teaching Harry to be positive, even when so much is going wrong; to find happiness and strength within himself when darkness is all around him. I think this is an important lesson, and definitely one Harry will need to draw upon in the coming books. And I think Remus will be there to help Harry cope with the death of Sirius and the pain of greiving, and also help Harry see beyond his pain and look at his future in a positve light.

Achieving a sense of balance in his life, between reason and emotion, impulse and reflection, is going to be vital not only to Harry's maturation process but to his very survival. Lupin is the only person right now who is both close enough to him and stable enough in his own approach to life that the boy is likely to pay attention to his counsel. Citing his teaching Harry the Patronus is indeed an apt metaphor, especially when one considers the root of this word. By exposing him to this spell, Remus was educating him about "summoning the father," after a fashion, which point leads us right back to his probable future role in Harry's life.

Nephel
April 5th, 2005, 11:41 pm
Hi Im Mental! Please don't worry about saying negative things about Lupin here--that's what a discussion thread is all about! You asked what Lupin does with his time. A lot of us Lupin fans believe that Lupin has a leadership role within the Order of the Phoenix. For example, he led the advance guard when they picked up Harry from Privet Drive.


I don't think he did. Moody was the one who ordered them about. I would have imagined Dumbeldore appointed Moody the task of retrieving Harry and Lupin came along to calm Harry; because Harry was very suspicious until he saw Lupin.


He also is the only Order member we know of who has a key to the house at Grimmauld Place--the other Order members have to knock.


Lupin is the only person left alive that Sirius trusts. Sirius would have gave Lupin a key.


Lupin also plays a key role in the Department of Mysteries--namely, he battles Lucius Malfoy and he is the only Order member left standing at the end, and Dumbledore charges him with taking care of the other members while DD deals with Voldemort and Harry. So I think Lupin's Order duties keep him quite busy at the moment.


This part of the book I find strange. Lupin was never described as a great dueller, and I believe Moody to be more capable; yet Moody was knocked out in seconds and Lupin didn't get a scratch.

With regards to the father figure, I think Dumbledore hs already stolen that role, within all of the 5 books. Though if Dumbledore dies, then I think Lupin will take over that role.


I also don't really think that Lupin could possibly be the HBP. I could, however, be completely wrong about that


I also don't think Lupin is the HBP. I don't have any evidence, but he is already; a werewolf and the last living goody of the four Marauders. To give him the HBP role would make his character diluted.

Mugglelvr
April 6th, 2005, 12:14 am
Harry had pretty much never willingly told another adult anything before that moment, let alone confided his fears in one. Compare how he opens up to Lupin with how he avoids telling Dumbledore about Tom Riddle until the aftermath of the battle in the Chamber of Secrets. Harry knows DD is trustworthy and even shared a touching personal moment with him at the end of PS/SS, but he just can't bring himself to take that next step towards emotional intimacy with him. Conversely, shortly after the start of his first office visit with Remus, he's ready to blurt out all of his fears about the Dementors and would have done so, had the two not been interrupted at that very moment. He senses qualities in this teacher that he has never encountered before, and they certainly do boost his self-confidence.

I think Harry looked at Dumbledore with such respect and admiration that he couldn't bring himself to tell Dumbledore he was hearing voices, partly due to what Ron and Hermione told him about how bad that was. He looked up to Dumbledore and didn't want him to think he was a nutter in the same way practically everyone else in the school had done. It's almost the same way a child who did something embarrassing would react when confronted by a parent. With Lupin it was different. Sure, Harry respected him as a teacher, but he wasn't in awe of him like he was Dumbledore. The fact that Harry could open up to him about his fear of the Dementors, and also, when he asked Lupin why he didn't let him face the Boggart - these things are the building blocks for their relationship. Harry opened up to Lupin because he trusted him, and because of that trust, Lupin began to open up to Harry. Not as much as he could have, or maybe should have, but it was the start of a mutual respect that continued to build throughout the story.

Lupin is the only person left alive that Sirius trusts. Sirius would have gave Lupin a key.

Lupin also lived at Grimmauld Place so he had to have a key. But even if he didn't live there, Sirius and Lupin were close enough that Lupin probably would have had a key anyway. I think after all they had been through, and what Sirius's not trusting Lupin completely had cost both of them, as in Wormtail's betrayal, and James and Lily's death - I think that neither one of them would hold back any negative feelings they might have had. Their lack of trust, or I should correct that - Sirius's lack of trust in Lupin had cost them both more than they could ever get back. Lupin's finding out the truth about Sirius was key to his coming out. After he finally told Dumbledore the truth about the Marauders being animagi - the load of guilt was lifted from his conscious and he seemed to be more assertive and open to Harry's questions in OotP, (I just wished Harry would have asked more questions - I'm sure he will in HBP.)


This part of the book I find strange. Lupin was never described as a great dueller, and I believe Moody to be more capable; yet Moody was knocked out in seconds and Lupin didn't get a scratch.

Lupin has never really had to use magic much in front of Harry - only in class and then at the Ministry so we don't know how skilled he was. I would guess that he was skilled at defense since Dumbledore had faith in his skills in order to make him the DADA teacher, and as Dean Thomas said, he was the best teacher they ever had.


I also don't think Lupin is the HBP. I don't have any evidence, but he is already; a werewolf and the last living goody of the four Marauders. To give him the HBP role would make his character diluted.

I think I agree with you on this. It's either Lupin or Dumbledore, but I'm leaning toward Lupin, mainly because we don't know anything about his family except that he is not a pure-blood. We don't know where he grew up or anything about his parents. He could actually be royalty - you think about how he had to have been bitten as a child - maybe after he got bitten he was banished from his title because of his condition. Who knows for sure. Besides, in England everyone is a Duke a Knight or a Sir somebody. :)

hobbitseeker
April 6th, 2005, 12:24 am
I don't think he did. Moody was the one who ordered them about. I would have imagined Dumbeldore appointed Moody the task of retrieving Harry and Lupin came along to calm Harry; because Harry was very suspicious until he saw Lupin.[

Although Moody is definitely the one getting the most attention during the advance guard scene, there are certain instances where Lupin takes the lead. For example, Lupin is the one to tell Harry to go pack. Lupin is the timekeeper, keeping watch on how many minutes they have until they can leave. Lupin left a letter for the Dursleys explaining what happened to Harry. Lupin tells everyone to mount their brooms when the first signal comes, and also tells everyone when to take off when the second signal comes. Lupin tells the guard when it is time to start the descent. And Lupin opens the door to Grimmauld Place.



Lupin is the only person left alive that Sirius trusts. Sirius would have gave Lupin a key.

Why not Dumbledore then? Surely Sirius trusted Dumbledore.



This part of the book I find strange. Lupin was never described as a great dueller, and I believe Moody to be more capable; yet Moody was knocked out in seconds and Lupin didn't get a scratch.

Lupin was also never described as a poor dueller either, so we just don't know. However given the fact that he survived the MOM unscathed speaks volumes to me as to his duelling ability. We already know Lupin is a relatively powerful wizard, seeing as he can produce a Patronus, not to mention the fire he cupped in his hands on the train in POA. Lupin also taught DADA, so it would make sense that if Dumbledore thought him competent to teach DADA, that Lupin would have knowledge and skill in that area, both of which are essential to good duelling.

With regards to the father figure, I think Dumbledore hs already stolen that role, within all of the 5 books. Though if Dumbledore dies, then I think Lupin will take over that role.

There were times when Harry did not feel comfortable talking to Dumbledore about personal things. For example, Harry talked to Lupin about hearing his mother screaming when the Dementors were near. Harry trusted Lupin to teach him the Patronus. Usually Harry only speaks to Dumbledore for explanations at the end of the books, yet he goes to Lupin at the end of POA as well. Harry also trusts Lupin's (and Sirius') explanation of what happened in Snape's Worst Memory. In fact, it seems whenever Harry has questions about his parents, Harry goes to Lupin, not Dumbledore. Of course Dumbledore is very important to Harry, and I am not trying to say that Dumbledore isn't a father figure, but I believe Lupin is as well.



I also don't think Lupin is the HBP. I don't have any evidence, but he is already; a werewolf and the last living goody of the four Marauders. To give him the HBP role would make his character diluted.

I would advise you to read Elf's essay on Remus as the HBP, as she can explain it much better than I. The link was posted by Loup Garou a bit up this page.


Hey everyone--I posted the signature with caladan's new artwork for the Lyceum! It's in the Shrieking Shack if you wanna check it out.

Desraelda
April 6th, 2005, 12:59 am
I posted the following in "The Meaning of Prince" thread.

"JKR has said she is Christian and has also said she won't elaborate on that because it would give too much away. So, is the HBP also The Prince of Peace? Not sure how that works with the prince being half-blood, but if he is the prince of the half-bloods, I think it would work out.

A recurring theme is the treatment by wizards of non-wizards. If this prince of the half-bloods is also the prince of peace, maybe he'll bring about a reconciliation between the wizards and non-wizards (not muggles because JKR has been very clear on that) so that they can join forces to fight and defeat Voldy together."

According to my theory, it wouldn't matter if Remus was half-blood or not, he could still be the HBP. Most of us have made the assumption that Harry was the heir of Gryffindor, but what if it were Remus? Elf did make a similar point in the essay (although I must admit I couldn't read the whole thing).

Remus is peaceful and quiet, almost unassuming most of the time, but he's shown he can take charge when he needs to. He is the perfect liaison between the non-wizards such as goblin, elves, etc. He is a wizard, but he knows what it is to be shunned by other wizards. He's capable of fighting, but also capable of great compassion and understanding.

I know this is not the "Is RL the HBP" thread, but I think it's appropriate as a natural extension of his character.

Dollmage
April 6th, 2005, 1:28 am
YAY!
First off, I like many others, am obligated to say thank you about a million times to rotsiepots and the other mods but I think that would be off topic so I will only say it once.
"Thank you for my home away from home."

To everyone else-YAY
I skimmed through most everything everybody said, but if you don't know by now I am too lazy to read it all if I don't feel like it(no offense, I just have a limited time on the computer today)

I noticed mentions about Remus being our beloved half-blood prince, and I was wondering, if he was the half blood prince, what would be his significance as the half blood prince. Ooo, and why didn't he know before? Dang-I probably need to go read Elf's theory again...

About his parentage-I think he probably is a mix like Harry-both magical parents, but one(or both) being muggleborn.

On the thought of father figures- I have always thought that Lupin would be a great father figure for Harry. But I rather regard him as a male influence or something else-I lost the word I was going to use. Its just, father figure just makes me think he is going to try and be Harry's father. but Remus isn't like that, he is much too nice and understanding for that. He would always understand that he is a friend of Harry's not a replacement for James(not that I am saying anyone is suggesting that) I think the burden Remus carries as Harry's only link to the past is a big one. That means he is carrying a humungous burden and a smaller, but still large version. I like the quotes in my signature because they reminded me completely of Remus since he has had the choice so many times to give up, quit, runaway, anything, but he hasn't, and that is proabably one of his strongest traits of character.

sheilajsn
April 6th, 2005, 1:43 am
Itís good to be back in the History of Magic Forum. I hated to feel like I was grounded.

So what are we talking about?
Remus, of course!

Cool new signature, by the way :tu:

Credo Buffa
April 6th, 2005, 2:09 am
Harry had pretty much never willingly told another adult anything before that moment, let alone confided his fears in one. Compare how he opens up to Lupin with how he avoids telling Dumbledore about Tom Riddle until the aftermath of the battle in the Chamber of Secrets. Harry knows DD is trustworthy and even shared a touching personal moment with him at the end of PS/SS, but he just can't bring himself to take that next step towards emotional intimacy with him.
When you think about it, up until Hogwarts, Harry didn't really have any kind of positive adults in his life that he would even think of confiding in. So, when he first got to Hogwarts, the idea that there could be good adults in the world who would want the best for him was probably pretty radical. Obviously, he'd need time to absorb that before moving on to a real "parental" kind of relationship.

With Dumbledore, I really think that it's almost impossible (well, maybe less impossible after the end of OoTP, but still pretty difficult) for Harry to have that kind of relationship. Harry has too much reverence for Dumbledore as both his headmaster and arguably the most powerful wizard in the world for him to really open up to him. Hagrid is so much of a "big kid" that half the time Harry is having to be the adult for him, so that doesn't work. The Weasleys were about as close as Harry could get to an adult without it feeling awkward, but with so many of their own children, I think that Harry didn't really feel that he was deserving of that place in their lives (recall how surprised he is in OoTP to find out that Mrs. Weasley cares enough about him that he may as well be one of her own children).

It's not until Lupin comes along that Harry even has an adult that he can confide in. And, really, it is pretty remarkable how quickly Harry gravitates toward him as a person to share his thoughts with and to help him in times of need. Unlike Dumbledore, he has so much of an appearance of humility (both physically with his shabby clothing and personally with his shy, unpretentious demeanor) that Harry probably didn't feel like he was imposing his problems on the greatest wizard in the world. Unlike Hagrid, he was obviously more together and could obviously take care of things with ease and tact. Unlike the Weasleys, he was more available (being at Hogwarts) and not otherwise occupied with gazillions of his own familial issues. I think all these details are things that Harry, probably unconsciously, latched onto pretty quickly. By that point in his life, he was probably past the stage of being amazed that adults might care about him to the point of being ready to have one prominently figure in his life. Lupin just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and happened to be exactly the kind of person Harry needed in his life.

This part of the book I find strange. Lupin was never described as a great dueller, and I believe Moody to be more capable; yet Moody was knocked out in seconds and Lupin didn't get a scratch.
I think, as well as many of us involved in the "Lupin is the HBP" theory, that Lupin is probably a much more powerful wizard than he lets on. It is in his nature to be modest and not "show off," and from what we've seen of him so far, he's not really given us any reason, other than this particular duel, to prove how powerful he really is.

Another hint we get of his potential to be a really great wizard is that he does manage to teach Harry the Patronus. Now, he makes a point of his not being that great, but considering that it is extremely difficult magic that even many full-grown, adult wizards cannot perform, the fact that he not only knows it well enough to use it on a real dementor but is able to teach it to a 13-year-old really says something about the kind of talent he has as a wizard. But, like I said, he's not the kind of person to say, "Hey, look at all the cool stuff I can do because I'm so great and powerful!" I think we'd really have to see him in a real situation--such as the DoM--to get a sense of that part of him.

Elf
April 6th, 2005, 2:19 am
original post by Desraelda
I posted the following in "The Meaning of Prince" thread.

"JKR has said she is Christian and has also said she won't elaborate on that because it would give too much away. So, is the HBP also The Prince of Peace? Not sure how that works with the prince being half-blood, but if he is the prince of the half-bloods, I think it would work out.

A recurring theme is the treatment by wizards of non-wizards. If this prince of the half-bloods is also the prince of peace, maybe he'll bring about a reconciliation between the wizards and non-wizards (not muggles because JKR has been very clear on that) so that they can join forces to fight and defeat Voldy together."

According to my theory, it wouldn't matter if Remus was half-blood or not, he could still be the HBP. Most of us have made the assumption that Harry was the heir of Gryffindor, but what if it were Remus? Elf did make a similar point in the essay (although I must admit I couldn't read the whole thing).

Okay, I'll begin by saying that many of you are aware that Loup Garou and I are collaborating on a book concerning our HBP theory, which has really turned into more of an analyses of the entire series at this point.

What Desraelda has just proposed hits on the heart of our theory. We do indeed think that the HBP is meant to represent the Prince of Peace and that Lupin is meant to be a Christ figure.

For those of you that are familiar with aspects of our theory, we began by comparing Lupin to King Arthur. Many of the Arthurian legends (not all) are messianic in nature, meaning they reflect either the resurrection or second coming of Christ. Without us really going looking for it, this naturally extended into the realm of Chrsitian symbollism.

Now, please let me stress that in discussing this I am not trying to push a certain religious point of view. As Desraelda has pointed out JKR has made mention of her faith in conjunction with the theme of the books. The exact quote reads as follows: "Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do; but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me -- because if I talk too freely about that, I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." (Vancouver Sun)

JKR was also asked the following question:

Did you read the Narnia books when you were a child?
Yes I did and I liked them, though all the Christian symbolism utterly escaped me. It was only when I re-read them later in life that it struck me forcibly. (BBC "Red Nose Day" Online Chat Transcript)

Loup and I think that JKR is creating her own biblical allegory similar in aspects to the Chronicles of Narnia, however, while C.S. Lewis was open from the beginning about the allegorical aspect of his series, we believe that JKR is working up to revealing this through the identity of the HBP.

So this is a very tiny summary of the heart of our theory:

Harry is the ďseekerĒ of the story, not just in terms of Quidditch, but in a spiritual sense as well. The series is essentially Harryís spiritual journey. Remus Lupin is the Half-blood Prince, a Christ figure within the novels and therefore the One Harry is seeking after. The focus remains on Harry as he is the subject of the books, while Lupin, representing the ultimate prize of salvation, is the object. While there is much hidden emphasis put on Lupin, he does not detract from Harryís role as the most prominent character, the one from whose viewpoint we perceive the events of the entire series.

Griffins, hippogriffs, centaurs, unicorns, stags, and phoenixes were all used by the early church as symbols of Christ for various reasons. Griffins, hippogriffs and centaurs are all dual natured, reflecting the dual nature of Christ, whom Christians believe was both God and Man (the Incarnation). As a werewolf, Lupin too possesses this duality, therefore it fits that JKR would incorporate his character is such a way. There's more to it than what I've said here, but for now I'll leave it at that.

We've been keeping our theory under wraps for a long time now, because if we are correct in our analyses we will send our book to a publisher and so we've felt it prudent to keep the details of our theory quiet. Seeing as the topic of Lupin as a Christ figure came up however, we decided we had better confirm that this is the angle we are taking in our theory.

Again, I want to stress that we aren't pushing a religious point of view on anyone and our intention is not to offend in any way, nor do we expect people to necessarily agree (especially without proof), but this is what we strongly suspect JKR is going to reveal in her next novel. Just our opinion.

RemusLupinFan
April 6th, 2005, 2:36 am
First, a big thank you to rotsiepots for opening this thread! It is much appreciated. :agree:

Second, welcome to any new-comers to the honorary 11th version of the Lyceum.

I haven't read everything yet- I have limited time, but I wanted to say a few things to celebrate the opening of this new thread.

His character is a lot like Harry's in that the reader feels for him. He's had a hard life and faced many obstacles, yet still maintains hope and kindness to others. He is the poster child for Dumbledore's speech to Harry about choices. Lupin could have easily given up on his condition and chose to follow Voldemort instead of siding with Dumbledore. After all, Voldemort's penchant for Dark Magic might have given Lupin hope that he could be cured of his supposedly, incurable condition through Dark Magic. Yet, Lupin never gave up on siding with Dumbledore and staying true to his friends. He learned to deal with his condition in the best way he could.Well-said. In addition to what youíve outlined here, I think itís important to note that both Harry and Lupin share in common that they are scarred individuals- both physic ally and mentally. We all know about Harryís scar- itís indeed the thing that defines who he is to many characters. But not to Lupin: instead, he defines his relationship with Harry based on who he is as a person, rather than his identity as the Boy Who Lived, or even the son of his best friend. He takes the time to really get to know Harry one on one and bond with him based on Harryís character traits.

And the big, important thing that you mentioned is what I think he embodies - hope.:tu: Exactly.

ImMental, I want you to knwow that I for one don't mind a dissenting opinion! I also think there's alot about Remus we don't know--we'll have fun debating what that may be! ;) Please don't feel you can't disagree with all the rampant Lupin-lovers around here. I for one love great debates.I agree with this.

I think Remus teaching Harry the Patronus was more than just teaching a charm--it was teaching Harry to be positive, even when so much is going wrong; to find happiness and strength within himself when darkness is all around him. I think this is an important lesson, and definitely one Harry will need to draw upon in the coming books. I agree 100%.

Lupin apparently has something that Harry needed in an adult figure that he couldn't find with the other adults in his life. Part of it is undoubtedly Lupin's sympathetic nature, his willingness to listen, and his ability to give practical aid, but not to solve his problems for him.How true- itís evident from the beginning that Harry was able to open up to Lupin about what was troubling him. I think another reason why Harry and Lupin struck a rapport so quickly is because Lupin invites Harry to be open with him. By this, I mean he gives Harry the opportunity to say whatís on his mind without pushing him to do so, even when he suspects that something is bothering Harry.

I thought it was quite touching how Sirius and Lupin talked about James in such a fond way - as in how he used to mess up his hair for Lily. Even though Harry was very upset, I think this scene was important in how Harry perceived his father, and how much he valued Lupin and Sirius's counsel. Also, Lupin kept the meeting calm when Sirius said he was going to go to Hogwarts and make Snape keep giving Harry Occluency. Lupin was the level headed one.You know, itís funny you should say this, because in the ĎDeconstructing the Maraudersí thread, some people seemed to think that Lupin and Sirius were glossing over the whole event by reminiscing, and that they werenít giving Harry the answers he was looking for. Iím interested to hear what you guys think about this, because Iím also of the opinion that Lupinís and Siriusís nostalgia showed that both were remembering the good times they shared with a good friend, even if their actions werenít exactly praiseworthy.

Ah, it's good to be home! :)

Allemande
April 6th, 2005, 2:37 am
This part of the book I find strange. Lupin was never described as a great dueller, and I believe Moody to be more capable; yet Moody was knocked out in seconds and Lupin didn't get a scratch.
I think I posted something about this in one of the old Remus Lupin threads. What I basically said was, that Lupin must be seriously amazing since a) not once did JK mention anything that was going on with any of his duels, despite doing so for everyone else, which makes me think she's keeping something quiet about him, and, b) if Kingsley, Tonks, and Moody, all aurors, and therefore all highly qualified wizards, all got injured, and Lupin didn't get so much as a scratch, he is obviously a much better wizard than he has made himself out to be...it would be really cool if he ends up being on par with Dumbledore

With regards to the father figure, I think Dumbledore hs already stolen that role, within all of the 5 books. Though if Dumbledore dies, then I think Lupin will take over that role.
I never really saw Dumbledore as a father figure to Harry; he seemed to me more like someone Harry really trusts, a friend, but that's about it. Sirius was Harry's father figure, however, now that he is (sob!) dead, I think Lupin will most definitely take over that father role. Based on their interactions in PoA and OoTP, it is obvious that Harry really trusts Lupin, moreso than most people; Lupin is a very understanding person: he knows that Harry is not a baby, appreciates that he needs be informed about what is going on, but, at the same time, that he needs to be taken care of, which is something I think Sirius (no matter how much I love him) did not realize. Another great thing about Lupin is that he's always there when you need him, but unlike Mrs. Weasley, or even Hermione, does not try to force himself on Harry or offer unwanted advice.
I'm so happy this thread is back!! I promise, we'll all behave.
However, if you would like to discuss David Thewlis (since discussion about him doesn't belong here), I started a thread in Muggle Studies about him (sorry don't know how to link to it!)

Mrs Flamel
April 6th, 2005, 2:40 am
I think it's REALLY important how Harry DIDN'T know who Remus was til after he already trusted him.
This is a very important observation! Remus does inspire trust---probably in part becasue he actually says "Voldemort." (Which Harry finds surprising. I love what you said, Remsy.

Remus vs. Albus as father figure: I think that there's a difference between family figure and mentor here. (For want of better terms. I need subtle science for this!) I think that Albus is more an intellectual mentor to Harry while Remus can be an emotional support for him, as a family member would be. The Weasley's also fill this role, but they have their own large family and didn't know James and Lily well. In a sense, the lack of his real parents means the job is now spread among many people, and each fill their own niche for Harry. It's possible for him to have multiple such figures in his life. And to me, it makes sense for Remus to be among them.

Elf! Thanks so much for giving us another tantalizing tidbit ot the theory! Would you mind letting us know any more about your publication plans?

While it is fine to disagree with those of us who believe Remus is the HBP, I'd advise you to read the link Loup Garou posted on page 1. I know it is long, but we do have resons we have arrived at this theory. It involves much overlapping imagery that JKR uses. Just to say that we aren't promoting Remus as HBP simply because he's our favorite character. It will make the debate much more exciting and edifying if you know where we're coming from.

I'd love to comment more, but I'm out of town this week. I'll be able to stop by some, just not for too many long posts! I'm tickled to see that the thread has started off so we;ll, and that we've found new people to talk with.

Im Mental
April 6th, 2005, 2:44 am
Rowling feels greatly for Remus, and says he has got many common features with her. Do you think she could make herself evil? And also, it would be too much for Harry - to loose Sirius, find out that Pettigrew is a traitor of the Potters and that Lupin is a spy/evil character.


See, putting words in my mouth! I never ever said he was a spy/evil. Read it again. I just said I hope people aren't surprised at what they find out about him. After all, I personally was disappointed in him standing by and not helping a victim, as he knows what it is to be a helpless victim.

I am in no way anti-Lupin, nor do I think he is on the dark side. But too many people are way too in love with him is all I am saying.

kingwidgit
April 6th, 2005, 2:47 am
I've only read about a third of post that Loup provided a link for, and it's terrific...I'm headed back over there after this post. What I don't know, is if this idea I've got is part of Elf's & Loup's--so, anyway--if it is---whoops. I posted this on another thread, but as it is about Remus, I thought it would be appropriate here.What if the HBP is Remus Lupin? We know that he wasn't introduced until POA, and that JKR had removed all traces of the HBP from CoS, because it revealed to much, to soon. Did she really remove all trace of it, or just what would jump out at fans?
For instance, from what I recall of the books, Chamber of Secrets is where we first learn of werewolves---through Professor Lockhart. His book list had a required book, Wandering with Werewolves---though it seems all of his books were required.
Later, Harry had to pretend to act out scenes from the book--including that of a werewolf, that Lockhart had used the immensely complex Homorphus Charm on, to change the werewolf back to human [defeat of the Wagga-Wagga Werewolf]--so that the trio could get a signed note to check out Most Potente Potions. In Moste Potente Potions we learn that some things are required to be picked during a certain lunar phase. (In fact, try re-reading books 1-5, looking specifically for references to the moon---there are thousands of them. I especially like a fairly obscure one--the boils that Gred & Forge had: "they're not in a place we generally display to the public." )
The next mention of werewolf, is when Lockhart reveals he wrote the books, taking the credit for what other wizards had done.
Anyway, it's an idea.

izanagi
April 6th, 2005, 3:50 am
Lupin...hmm...well I think he's the one always serious in their gang. He was not that arrogant like James and Sirius. If only he was not bitten by a werewolf, perhaps he wouldn't be that shabby. But he is really good in dealing with dark creatures right? :tu:

WoodenCoyote
April 6th, 2005, 3:56 am
Lupin...hmm...well I think he's the one always serious in their gang. He was not that arrogant like James and Sirius. If only he was not bitten by a werewolf, perhaps he wouldn't be that shabby. But he is really good in dealing with dark creatures right? :tu:
Welcome Izanagi!
If Remus hadn't been bitten, he could have done anything he liked in the world. He's certainly smart enough and talented enough to make his way. Another example of how good things don't always happen to good people. Injustice.
And he is very good at dealing with dark creatures, you're right.

strange magic
April 6th, 2005, 4:25 am
In away had Lupin not been bitten, the wizarding world would be VERY different because James, Sirius, and Peter would have never became animagi and thus changing the outcome of the war entirely. My idea of the change is a bad one because had the whole animagus thing never happened Sirius Black would never be a criminal on the loose, so Lupin would never have taught Harry the Patrounus Charm. Then in Harry's Fifth year Umbridge sends Dementors to Privite Drive. Had Harry never learned the Patrounus Charm the he would have recieved the Demetor's kiss, making him unable to destroy Voldemort, Destroying the world. The Butterfly Effect.

Desraelda
April 6th, 2005, 4:57 am
Welcome Izanagi!
If Remus hadn't been bitten, he could have done anything he liked in the world. He's certainly smart enough and talented enough to make his way. Another example of how good things don't always happen to good people. Injustice.
And he is very good at dealing with dark creatures, you're right.
I think Remus would have been a very different person if he hadn't been bitten. Adversity is often a great teacher.

Okay, I'll begin by saying that many of you are aware that Loup Garou and I are collaborating on a book concerning our HBP theory, which has really turned into more of an analyses of the entire series at this point.

What Desraelda has just proposed hits on the heart of our theory. We do indeed think that the HBP is meant to represent the Prince of Peace and that Lupin is meant to be a Christ figure.

For those of you that are familiar with aspects of our theory, we began by comparing Lupin to King Arthur. Many of the Arthurian legends (not all) are messianic in nature, meaning they reflect either the resurrection or second coming of Christ. Without us really going looking for it, this naturally extended into the realm of Chrsitian symbollism.
As for Arthur, another central theme is unification. Uthor Pendragon could not unify England, but Arthur did. That's one of the reasons I think Remus could be the one to unify the magical world.

Mugglelvr
April 6th, 2005, 6:12 am
When you think about it, up until Hogwarts, Harry didn't really have any kind of positive adults in his life that he would even think of confiding in. So, when he first got to Hogwarts, the idea that there could be good adults in the world who would want the best for him was probably pretty radical. Obviously, he'd need time to absorb that before moving on to a real "parental" kind of relationship.

This is very true. Harry had no one who he could confide in and was forbidden to ask question of the Dursley's. When he first got to Hogwarts and his first close encounter with Dumbledore, at the mirror of Erised, Harry was encouraged to ask questions, which was a totally alien concept to him. This only grew when he met Lupin, who was his teacher, and in many ways, a mentor to Harry. Lupin's patience and understanding led Harry to ask questions, some of which made Lupin uncomfortable, but even when Lupin disclosed to Harry that he had been friends with James - a very awkward moment for Lupin as it was obvious that he wanted to stay as far away from the subject of his relationship with the Marauders as possible - I think Lupin's very demeanor encouraged Harry's curiosity further. Only in Lupin's hesitance to answer questions about Sirius, at the time when everyone was still under the impression, including Lupin, that Sirius was a crazed murderer intent on killing Harry, did Lupin's reaction stifle Harry's questions. After Harry had asked the question about if Lupin had known Sirius, and Lupin's evasiveness, followed by Harry's regret in asking the question - Lupin's back-peddle from Harry's inquiry about Sirius was enough of a signal for Harry not to ask about Sirius again. Harry already prized the relationship he was building with Lupin too much to jeopordize shunting him away with questions that obviously made Lupin uncomfortable.

Lupin just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and happened to be exactly the kind of person Harry needed in his life.

It would be interesting to know the timing of when Sirius escaped from Azkaban, and when Dumbledore actually hired Lupin for the DADA position. It's almost as if, by introducing Lupin into Harry's life, Dumbledore gave Harry the opportunity to gravitate toward a male figure who was his father's age, and who Dumbledore knew to be kind and caring. Harry and Dumbledore had little interaction in PoA - Harry's main male figure was Lupin throughout his third year, and it was a huge time of discovery and growth for Harry, and Lupin definitely helped him along the way. He helped Harry understand why the Dementors affected him so, and helped him in that he taught Harry that no matter how helpless he felt when in the presence of Dementors, he could fight it and overcome - which had a huge effect on Harry's self worth. I believe Dumbledore is a wise man, and don't think that his placement of Lupin at Hogwarts that year was just a coincidence or desparation to fill the position.


Another hint we get of his potential to be a really great wizard is that he does manage to teach Harry the Patronus. Now, he makes a point of his not being that great, but considering that it is extremely difficult magic that even many full-grown, adult wizards cannot perform, the fact that he not only knows it well enough to use it on a real dementor but is able to teach it to a 13-year-old really says something about the kind of talent he has as a wizard. But, like I said, he's not the kind of person to say, "Hey, look at all the cool stuff I can do because I'm so great and powerful!" I think we'd really have to see him in a real situation--such as the DoM--to get a sense of that part of him.

This is so true - Lupin isn't the kind of man to toot his own horn. I think he is a powerful Wizard, much more powerful than we've been led to believe. I imagine him in this way like Hermione - being book smart and learning spells on his own. Maybe that's part of why we are shown his teaching skills in the form of dark creatures - so we don't really know how powerful he actually is. JKR could be holding back on us so she can surprise us with his actual skill as a Wizard in HBP.

Lupin seems to be the quiet type in SWM - the one who continued to pay attention to his reading and not join in on the tussle with Snape. It is indicated that he was, at one point not actually reading, but possibly avoiding his Prefect duties by not stopping James and Sirius from taunting Snape, but, in his own way he was monitoring the situation so that it didn't get out of hand. Actually, James got the worst of the battle anyway, with the gash on his face - but I'm sure the memory of Snape hanging upside down showing the entire school his underwear was enough of a payback for the cut on James's face.

Well-said. In addition to what youíve outlined here, I think itís important to note that both Harry and Lupin share in common that they are scarred individuals- both physic ally and mentally. We all know about Harryís scar- itís indeed the thing that defines who he is to many characters. But not to Lupin: instead, he defines his relationship with Harry based on who he is as a person, rather than his identity as the Boy Who Lived, or even the son of his best friend. He takes the time to really get to know Harry one on one and bond with him based on Harryís character traits.

I couldn't have said it any better :)

Credo Buffa
April 6th, 2005, 6:25 am
It's almost as if, by introducing Lupin into Harry's life, Dumbledore gave Harry the opportunity to gravitate toward a male figure who was his father's age, and who Dumbledore knew to be kind and caring. Harry and Dumbledore had little interaction in PoA - Harry's main male figure was Lupin throughout his third year, and it was a huge time of discovery and growth for Harry, and Lupin definitely helped him along the way. He helped Harry understand why the Dementors affected him so, and helped him in that he taught Harry that no matter how helpless he felt when in the presence of Dementors, he could fight it and overcome - which had a huge effect on Harry's self worth. I believe Dumbledore is a wise man, and don't think that his placement of Lupin at Hogwarts that year was just a coincidence or desparation to fill the position.
Wow, that's a really interesting idea that I'd never considered before. I think that Dumbledore was probably looking for more than just a person who would be good for one student when he needed to fill the position of DADA teacher for the whole school, but it's still interesting to consider that the fact that Lupin knew James and the idea that Dumbledore knew this when he hired him. Granted, it doesn't seem that people are lining up to teach DADA at Hogwarts--they seem to be finding teachers wherever they can get them!--but it might have been that Dumbledore was looking for someone to call in for the job and happened to think of Lupin, who not only probably needed a good job, but just happened to have this particular background tidbit that might be very valuable to one of his more "interesting" students. . .

Fenshae
April 6th, 2005, 6:30 am
((Just a note before I get started: I'm not sure why the original thread(s) was closed, so I apologize in advance if I step out of line. I'll try to stay on topic but I have a rather circular way of thinking...I'll try to corral myself back in by the end, I promise.))

It's funny, as much as I love Lupin, that I've put surprisingly little thought into his character (as opposed to Voldemort and Snape, who I've thought about quite a bit).

Lupin is incredibly mysterious, and that's probably one of the reasons so many people love him. It's also hard not to love a guy who's been through so much and still seems so kind--and indeed, worn and haggard. He has trouble getting work, he's lost his three closest school friendds, and he's ravaged by the guilt of having a monster inside of him. He's kind, and patient, and reasonable.

What's always confused me slightly about Lupin is why Harry doesn't have a closer relationship with him. Harry knows Lupin was a close friend of his father's, and spent a year at Hogwarts really getting along well with him as a teacher and confidante...then Lupin left the school and Harry didn't really stay in contact with him. It's strange to me that Harry would risk trusting Sirius with so many owls while he was in hiding when, honestly, he barely knew him--why in the world would Harry trust a stranger who happened to be his godfather more than a better-known ex-teacher who was also close to his family? ((I love Sirius too, but still))

We know Sirius (and ostensibly, James) thought Lupin may have been the spy, hence why he wasn't Secret Keeper, so it's clear something could have been going on in his past that would make them think that. Where was he when James and Lily died? So many questions.

I've always wondered the backstory of his werewolfism. He was a small child when he received the bite, and is probably at least half-blood because otherwise I doubt he'd have had the occasion to be bitten in muggle-territory. So many questions...

...I hope that he, as the last Marauder (or the last one on our side, anyway) gets a little more attention in HBP. Especially if he dies--It'd be a shame for him to leave the series without some of these mysteries cleared up.

Credo Buffa
April 6th, 2005, 6:44 am
Welcome, fenshae!

Like I've said above, I think that Harry has probably had to gradually learn how to trust adults in his life. One of the reasons that he was so open to Sirius right away, even though he knew Lupin better, was that his parents had chosen Sirius as his godfather, and anything with that connection to his parents is obviously going to be very important to Harry. He wants that assurance that a part of them still lives on, and that was Sirius.

Harry knew about Sirius being his godfather long before he knew how close Lupin was with his parents as well. Also, Harry got to know Lupin first as his teacher, and however open their relationship was with that understanding, there will naturally be a student/teacher distance that I think Harry still has to overcome in order to really see Lupin as a father figure. Remember, he still calls him "Professor" at the beginning of OoTP. . . that "professional" image of him is still fresh in Harry's mind.

Fenshae
April 6th, 2005, 7:10 am
Getting some back-reading on the thread done...unfortunately I can't make it through all of it due to a headache and total inability to concentrate (I'll blame caffeine withdrawls), but I think I'm getting a rough idea of the "feel" of the thread. First, I have to comment on the total professionalism and intellectualism of posters so far--one of the most "literary" threads I've come across by far. I should fit in here, though I do feel very much like somebody who's come into the middle of a long-standing conversation and will never catch up.

Anyway, that said...there is truth to your statements about the nature of Harry's relationships with adults and authority figures, Credo. I think it's also telling of Harry's character that he places so much faith on the choices of his parents without really knowing/remembering them terribly well...but I digress.

I'm noticing a lot of conjecture that Lupin is the HBP. I haven't had a chance to read the theory that was linked yet, but I will get around to it soon (tylenol willing), but before I do so (and return with more insightful commentary!) I'll have to say that the idea of Lupin's being the HBP had occurred to me, but I've recently taken him back off my list because 1.) it seems too obvious (as much mythic evidence as there is to support it, it just reads too much like some kind of fairytale), and 2.) I have a gut feeling that the HBP won't necessarily be a good guy. If you look at the trend of book titles, Order of the Phoenix is the only one thus far that hasn't referred to either a threat, perceived threat, or something which led to a threatening situation. A more in-depth analysis of titles would be best off somewhere else, but my gut instinct (the one that told me Sirius would die, for what that's worth) tells me HBP will be a new character altogether. But I'll read the theory and return with a more intellectual argument when I can think straight.

Next...where, exactly, does it say in canon that Lupin is a half-blood? I must have missed it somewhere...it's something I've always assumed but never really thought about WHERE I got it from, so it would be helpful if somebody could give me a quote. I know Umbridge refers to him as a "dangerous half-breed" but I figured that had to do with his werewolfism, not his bloodline.

And as for the concept of Lupin being a Christ metaphor...I must admit, my initial reaction was a recoil of "igh, I hope not" because I've always wanted to think Harry Potter is a more "open" sort of allegory--something fitting to life and the human condition, not necessarily religion. Drawing the religious allegory is fine and effective, but to think that JKR is consciously writing it as such seems to cheapen the story slightly (just my opinion). Still, I can't help but think of how utterly amusing it would be for its implications on the fundamentalists who want to burn the books because they're evil.

Thanks for the welcome ;)

Credo Buffa
April 6th, 2005, 7:35 am
Next...where, exactly, does it say in canon that Lupin is a half-blood? I must have missed it somewhere...it's something I've always assumed but never really thought about WHERE I got it from, so it would be helpful if somebody could give me a quote. I know Umbridge refers to him as a "dangerous half-breed" but I figured that had to do with his werewolfism, not his bloodline.
JKR actually says that he is a half-blood in one of her Q&A's. . . I don't remember which one, but I'm sure there's a Lupinite here somewhere who has it memorized! The most interesting thing about this is that she simply says "half-blood" when the person asks about it, but gives no other details. That kind of question of a character's background would normally at least account for a couple sentences of explanation from JKR. . . unless, of course, those details are important later on :eyebrows:

And as for the concept of Lupin being a Christ metaphor...I must admit, my initial reaction was a recoil of "igh, I hope not" because I've always wanted to think Harry Potter is a more "open" sort of allegory--something fitting to life and the human condition, not necessarily religion.
Well, even if there is some Christian allegory to Lupin's character or the story at large, I don't think it necessarily has to be read that way. This is a story that is very largely allegorical, and even the Christ story can be looked at simply as an allegory for "the human condition" even if that is not your religious background. The idea of a person who sacrifices his/herself selflessly for a cause is universal, and I think anyone can appreciate that idea. . . just as anyone can appreciate a person with an illness or disability who has to face the way the world looks at him differently because of it (which is how JKR has described Lupin). Christian allegory or not, I think that JKR is conscious of making her story into something that anyone can relate to, because it is very clear that one of her primary goals is showing how people build up these walls between one another for often very stupid reasons, and a lot of that has to do with the global truth of that message of tolerance and equality. If basing HP on the Christian tradition is something that she sees working toward that end, then I think we can simply see it as working toward that end as well.

But I understand your reservations. I admit that I was sort of surprised to hear JKR say that about the link between HP and the Bible as well. If nothing else, though, it gives us interesting possibilities for discussing Lupin's future, as Elf and Loup have some really great insights into what that could mean.

MomGonagall
April 6th, 2005, 7:50 am
First a quick hello. I'm removing my invisibility cloak finally after lurking on Lyceum for months. I was dismayed to see it shut down, and decided if a new thread began I'd register and join in. I'm totally intimidated by the world of avatars, smilies and quotes and html tags, but I have a 13 year old son to help me navigate. Bear with me!

About a father figure for Harry. I came to the series by reading them aloud to my 2 sons, and found myself frustrated that Harry would never confide in an adult about the problems he was facing. Of course these are books for kids and this kind of adventure genre calls for kids being strong and capable to overcome the most adverse situation. I nevertheless felt such a relief in POA over Remus being available to Harry. That is the one biggest difference between Remus and all the other adults in the story. He wasn't just there at Hogwarts, he had his office door open and invited Harry in for a cup of tea. He made a point of asking Harry about his broom after the Quidditch match with the dementors. Finally there was someone showing compassion for Harry! Dumbledore is in an office locked by a secret password, and doesn't seem to be out and about ready to have a chat with students. Nor are the other teachers, really.

I loved at the end of POA that Harry felt he had a right to march into Remus's office and argue with him about resigning. I also felt a surge of relief in OOTP when Remus was there to rescue Harry from Privet drive, thinking Harry would get some nurturing after the horrors at the end of GOF.

Keep the theories coming strong, Elf and Loup (and all the rest of the regulars)! The conversations about the Arthurian/Tolkein/mythological connections and now the Narnia connections are what makes this thread the place I like to come visit.

LunaGoldstein
April 6th, 2005, 10:05 am
I saw this thread briefly before I went to class and now I'm finally caught up on back reading! Thanks so much Rotsie for your patience and giving us a second change :cool: :)


In counting supporters of the Remus-is-the-HBP theory, I decided to be "half"- one part of me is quite impressed by Loup and Elf's dedication and analysis, and it certainly seems to make sense. However the other half of me simply thinks it's a wildcard- either a new (or mentioned in passing) character, or just the last person we would ever think of. I don't want to commit to subscribing wholeheartedly to any one theory just yet but of all of them, I would most definitely be happy if he was the HBP however.

When JKR said those quotes about linking Harry Potter with the Bible I thought "uh-oh, not another Christ figure of some sort!" It's not so much a religious thing, but more like I've seen than plot device used in countless godawful, maudlin, lame in every respect stories and movies that I never want to see it used again. But since is JKR we're talking about, hopefully she'll write it subtle and not so heavy handed like other stories. And I concur that there are numerous Biblical parallels and similar themese already in the book that are pan-religious and apply to spiritual questions we all have.

Actually the more I think about it, the less I see Remus as a Christ figure, and more like Job. While it wasn't like Remus had a string of good luck that was suddenly reversed, he's put up with more than his fair share of trials in life that really test his character. Also I always picture a "Christ figure" as sort of larger than life, whereas Job was so... human. And it's what's always appealed to me about Lupin, is just how human he is. Like if Death of a Salesman's Willy Loman stopped feeling so sorry for himself and didn't let himself deteriorate. I just don't see Remus as divine, (well not in the Biblical sense anyway;) more like an extraordinary human spirit.

As for Remus as Harry's first mentor, he also is one of the first adults in the whole series that the audience trusts as well. The first two books deal mostly with adults being these scary forces that can't be trusted, save for Mr. and Mrs. Weasly (parental figures), Dumbledore (more of a grandfather figure. Most kids don't see grandparents as normal adults, but a different breed of them altogether), and Hagrid (the "overgrown kid" uncle type). With the introduction of Lupin, Harry not only gets his first positive male role model, but his first model of a trustworthy adult, period. This coincides with the average age than most kids start to see normal adults as people too, people they can relate to.

(gosh I feel old- it feels like not too long ago I thought of adults as immediately suspect:P

Anywho it's great to be back here, and it's great to have this discussion!

Mugglelvr
April 6th, 2005, 12:09 pm
What's always confused me slightly about Lupin is why Harry doesn't have a closer relationship with him. Harry knows Lupin was a close friend of his father's, and spent a year at Hogwarts really getting along well with him as a teacher and confidante...then Lupin left the school and Harry didn't really stay in contact with him. It's strange to me that Harry would risk trusting Sirius with so many owls while he was in hiding when, honestly, he barely knew him--why in the world would Harry trust a stranger who happened to be his godfather more than a better-known ex-teacher who was also close to his family? ((I love Sirius too, but still))

We know Sirius (and ostensibly, James) thought Lupin may have been the spy, hence why he wasn't Secret Keeper, so it's clear something could have been going on in his past that would make them think that. Where was he when James and Lily died? So many questions.

The fact that James and Sirius must have had a reason to believe Lupin was the spy is unsettling. It was said in another thread that it's possible that Peter was the instigator of their mistrust - Lupin was gone a lot working for the Order, as he was in OotP - the possibility that Wormtail was there and whispered innuendoes in Sirius and James's ears and planted a seed of mistrust is not out of the question. After all, Peter was working for Voldemort trying to find the weakest link in the Marauders. The Potter's were only in hiding for a week before Voldemort's attack. Peter had plenty of time to get the two strongest members of the foursome to mistrust one of the two weaker links.

I've always wondered the backstory of his werewolfism. He was a small child when he received the bite, and is probably at least half-blood because otherwise I doubt he'd have had the occasion to be bitten in muggle-territory. So many questions...

I guess my biggest question is, what exactly does Lupin do for the Order??? If the buzz about him being HBP is correct, could it be that he is actually a Prince shunted out of his position because of his condition? It seems fitting that if he were bitten as a small boy - (I picture the setting of a large castle and a small boy playing off in the woods) It could explain why he is so poor and seems not to have family around, although I'd think if he was banished from his entitlement, that his parents would still offer him money so he didn't walk around looking like a tramp. Maybe he works from wherever he is originally from? Perhaps, Scotland? He is gone for long periods of time as was mentioned in OotP, but where was he and what was he doing the night the Potter's were killed? All conjecture, really. So many Lupin questions - and I want answers :huh:

:welcome: MomGonagall

gottaloveLupin
April 6th, 2005, 12:18 pm
Originally Posted by Nephel
This part of the book I find strange. Lupin was never described as a great dueller, and I believe Moody to be more capable; yet Moody was knocked out in seconds and Lupin didn't get a scratch.

Good point. As my friends have said, we suspect that Remus is a much more powerful wizard than we are lead to believe.

By constantly telling us how shabby Lupin is and how tired and ill he looks, she perpetuates the image of a fragil person, a person who could be killed easily with a simple hex, just like ron says in POA.

but despite the appareances Lupin has survived book3 and book 4 and book 5. has survived the first war and the lost of all his friends. Has survived the poverty etc.

So maybe here will be one of the big twists of the story; that Lupin really is a great fighter!

goldennib
April 6th, 2005, 12:26 pm
Good point. As my friends have said, we suspect that Remus is a much more powerful wizard than we are lead to believe.

By constantly telling us how shabby Lupin is and how tired and ill he looks, she perpetuates the image of a fragil person, a person who could be killed easily with a simple hex, just like ron says in POA.

but despite the appareances Lupin has survived book3 and book 4 and book 5. has survived the first war and the lost of all his friends. Has survived the poverty etc.

So maybe here will be one of the big twists of the story; that Lupin really is a great fighter! Exactly. Lupin would have had to learn to keep his head down so to speak to make it through life. He wouldn't advertise himself or make himself stand out because he's hiding a disability. And like Dumbledore, truely powerful and talented people do not feel the need to show off.

moonlite
April 6th, 2005, 1:42 pm
JKR actually says that he is a half-blood in one of her Q&A's. . . I don't remember which one, but I'm sure there's a Lupinite here somewhere who has it memorized! The most interesting thing about this is that she simply says "half-blood" when the person asks about it, but gives no other details. That kind of question of a character's background would normally at least account for a couple sentences of explanation from JKR. . . unless, of course, those details are important later on
Hehee, I guess this classifies me as an official Lupinite from now on :p :
Siriusstar: Is Remus a pureblood?
JK Rowling replies -> Half blood.
I nevertheless felt such a relief in POA over Remus being available to Harry. That is the one biggest difference between Remus and all the other adults in the story. He wasn't just there at Hogwarts, he had his office door open and invited Harry in for a cup of tea. He made a point of asking Harry about his broom after the Quidditch match with the dementors. Finally there was someone showing compassion for Harry! Dumbledore is in an office locked by a secret password, and doesn't seem to be out and about ready to have a chat with students. Nor are the other teachers, really.

I loved at the end of POA that Harry felt he had a right to march into Remus's office and argue with him about resigning. I also felt a surge of relief in OOTP when Remus was there to rescue Harry from Privet drive, thinking Harry would get some nurturing after the horrors at the end of GOF.
I agree with you a 100%. I think Lupin is now the only (possible) father figure Harry has left, and since the DoM incident, it'll be interesting to see how they interact and bond in the HBB.

Maybe it's only me, but Lupin has aways seemed a bit... detatched... from Harry at times. It has always puzzled me as to why they weren't any closer, and I think this may have been because Lupin made sure that there was a bit of distance between them, possibly because his Werewolf problem does haunt him and drives him farther away from people. Though of coarse, the bridge scene in the movie (which was just beautiful) did show a growing bond between them, and now that Harry is older he might gain a new appreciation for Lupin's more mature, steady approach.

Desraelda
April 6th, 2005, 3:10 pm
About a father figure for Harry. I came to the series by reading them aloud to my 2 sons, and found myself frustrated that Harry would never confide in an adult about the problems he was facing. Of course these are books for kids and this kind of adventure genre calls for kids being strong and capable to overcome the most adverse situation. I nevertheless felt such a relief in POA over Remus being available to Harry. That is the one biggest difference between Remus and all the other adults in the story. He wasn't just there at Hogwarts, he had his office door open and invited Harry in for a cup of tea. He made a point of asking Harry about his broom after the Quidditch match with the dementors. Finally there was someone showing compassion for Harry! Dumbledore is in an office locked by a secret password, and doesn't seem to be out and about ready to have a chat with students. Nor are the other teachers, really.

I had this same conversation with my mother two days ago. Where is the message for kids that if you are in trouble you can go to an adult ... parent, teacher, guidance counselor, etc. Along comes Lupin and finally (big sigh of relief) there is someone that Harry can go to.

Someone also questioned Harry contacting Sirius rather than Remus when he was having problems in GoF.

Sirius is (was) handsome, charming, charismatic even, and was James' closest friend and Harry's godfather. There is an additional bond between them because Harry saved Sirius' life.

Contrast that with Lupin ... tired, sad, ill-looking, shabby, even ragged. And even though Lupin opened his door to Harry and taught him the Patronus, he still had that detachment. Yes, Harry could trust him, but Remus was still holding back while Sirius was outgoing.

Remus was guarding the happiest and saddest memories of his life from outside influence. The happiest days were when he was accepted as part of the Marauders, and not only accepted, but his friends went to extraordinary lengths to help him and be with him. Then the crushing blows of mistrust, betrayal and loss. Remus has to hold these memories deep inside of him and guard them very closely. Instinctively, Harry recognized that holding back, forbidden terriorty if you will, and felt he could not reach out to Remus.

RemusLupinFan
April 6th, 2005, 3:59 pm
I know some of you had answered this question very well, but I wanted to throw in my two cents about it:

Why arenít Harry and Lupin closer?
As was mentioned, I think Sirius was a large factor that prevented Harry and Lupin from developing a deeper relationship, althoug I donít mean that in a bad way. Sirius was Harryís godfather, the one who was the next logical father figure for Harry. While Sirius was still alive, Lupin didnít try to develop the relationship with Harry because this was Siriusí right as a godfather. Now that Sirius is gone, someone will have to fill the void that Sirius left behind in Harryís life, and that someone will most likely be Lupin.

We have seen the barriers between Harry and Lupin get broken progressively, on both Harry's and Lupin's part. In PoA, Lupin is hesitant to touch Harry to reassure him when he tells Lupin about what he hears when the dementors get too close- he makes a sudden move with his arm like he's going to put a hand on Harry, but he restrains himself. Yet, Harry is able to open up to Lupin about things that bother him, as we've discussed earlier. In PoA, Harry and Lupin have a teacher-student relationship that evolves to become more like a mentor-teacher relationship. I agree with Credo Buffa that Harry and Sirius instantly struck a rapport and became close was indeed because as Harry's godfather- appointed by Lily and James- Sirius was a strong connection to Harry's parents. I also think Sirius and Harry are alike as well, though as was said earlier, Harry and Lupin certainly share a lot in common as well.

In OotP, we see the relationship grow even more as more barriers are broken. In this book, Lupin breaks the boundary of touching Harry- he shakes his hand near the beginning when seeing Harry off to Hogwarts, and of course, he grabs Harry to stop him from running into the veil. In this book Lupin evolves from a mentor/teacher to a mentor/father figure/friend. In short, his relationship with Harry is becoming less formal/professional and more personal. From looking at this pattern, I predict that in the next book, Lupin's relationship with Harry will move more toward the role of father figure, as many people have said.

I don't think that at this point, Lupin necessarily should be closer to Harry, I think both are moving at their own pace in this relationship. Right now, Harry doesn't view Lupin as a father figure, but I believe that the circumstances of OotP seem to set the stage not only for Lupin to begin to fill a father-like role in Harryís life, but also for Harry to begin to see Lupin as such.

goldennib
April 6th, 2005, 5:09 pm
When Sirius first escaped, I think Lupin may have held back from Harry, because Lupin intended to go after Sirius or prevent Sirius from attacking Harry, which in either case would have put Lupin in danger (because he would know how powerful Sirius was) so Lupin could not be sure he (Lupin) would survive such a battle.

Then, when Lupin knew Sirius was not guilty, he held back because there was a natural attraction between Sirius and Harry (as has been said) and as Harry's Godfather, Sirius would be the one that would look after Harry (as part of the Godfather role.)

And I think Lupin is just not the type to push himself on others. I'm sure he's been burned many times (from childhood, like Casper, well liked until they find out his secret, then the parents quickly keep their kids away.)

Credo Buffa
April 6th, 2005, 5:31 pm
However the other half of me simply thinks it's a wildcard- either a new (or mentioned in passing) character, or just the last person we would ever think of.
Well, in response to your last point, I think Lupin is the last person most people think of. . . Of course, he's always first in our minds, but look at Scholastic's poll (http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/shrieking_shack/index.asp). Lupin is in last, even after Sirius. Most people would rather believe it would be a dead guy than Lupin!

Actually the more I think about it, the less I see Remus as a Christ figure, and more like Job. While it wasn't like Remus had a string of good luck that was suddenly reversed, he's put up with more than his fair share of trials in life that really test his character. Also I always picture a "Christ figure" as sort of larger than life, whereas Job was so... human. And it's what's always appealed to me about Lupin, is just how human he is. Like if Death of a Salesman's Willy Loman stopped feeling so sorry for himself and didn't let himself deteriorate. I just don't see Remus as divine, (well not in the Biblical sense anyway;) more like an extraordinary human spirit.
Another good character comparison! You're right. . . at least up to this point in the story, I'd definitely compare Lupin more to Job than Christ.

Maybe it's only me, but Lupin has aways seemed a bit... detatched... from Harry at times. It has always puzzled me as to why they weren't any closer, and I think this may have been because Lupin made sure that there was a bit of distance between them, possibly because his Werewolf problem does haunt him and drives him farther away from people.
I think that's another point of similarity between Harry and Lupin: they both seem to be reluctant to get close to people. Harry does have Ron and Hermione, but he doesn't ever really have any conversations about the issues closest to his heart: his parents, his real fears, etc. He has friends, but not necessarily a confidant--until Lupin and Sirius come around--which is probably at least partially due to so many solitary years with the Dursleys.

By the same token, Lupin has had to go through so much with regard to lycanthropy and the immediate prejudice against it that he has probably learned over the years to believe that most people just don't want to be around him. He'll just naturally assume a distance with people, however kind they might seem, because he never knows when the truth about his condition will come out and how they will react. He's probably taught himself that by not getting too close to anyone, he can't be hurt (although undoubtedly he is) by their responses to him.

Of course, the hurdles here have already been crossed: Harry has confided in Lupin, and Lupin knows that Harry is aware of his lycanthropy and still thinks he's a good person. Now that those boundaries are broken, I think they really have that opportunity to build a closer relationship.

Remsy Luck
April 6th, 2005, 6:49 pm
First of all, welcome MomGonagall (nice name, btw! ;) ) and all the new people! :D


Maybe now, with all they've gone through together, they can form a closer bond and Lupin can be the male figure Harry needs in his life, and Harry can be the one person who Lupin can feel really cares about him and trusts him to be there. I believe if Lupin had someone to depend on him, like a parent, it would be a big morale boost for him because I don't think he's ever had anyone who really depended on him
That's a beautiful thought.
And not only it would give Remus a lil more confidence, but more of an extra motivation to make it through this war.
There's nothing like feeling the responsability of someone confiding and depending on you.
Which is one of the original reasons I think Lupin might have held back initially in his relationship with Harry.
Maybe originally he didn't want Harry to come to depend on him: becuase he didn't feel he could support Harry, be it modesty or practical thinking...whatever the motivation, I think this is one of the factors nontheless.



I nevertheless felt such a relief in POA over Remus being available to Harry. That is the one biggest difference between Remus and all the other adults in the story. He wasn't just there at Hogwarts, he had his office door open and invited Harry in for a cup of tea. He made a point of asking Harry about his broom after the Quidditch match with the dementors. Finally there was someone showing compassion for Harry! Dumbledore is in an office locked by a secret password, and doesn't seem to be out and about ready to have a chat with students. Nor are the other teachers, really.

This is a great observation, I totally agree. And I never noticed the possible allegory of the "doors". You pointed out something very true.
Even if DD was the one adult with which Harry talked, his door is locked and protected. Remus' is wide open.

hobbitseeker
April 6th, 2005, 8:03 pm
Hi everyone! Excellent analyses all around!

Elf and Loup Garou, now that you've given us a taste of your theory, it makes perfect sense. Here's hoping you get published so we can read it sometime soon!

Lupin and Harry's Relationship: Most people have already touched upon what I would have said regarding the relationship between Lupin and Harry. I agree that the most likely reason Harry was not closer to Lupin was because of Sirius. Given Harry's idolization of his parents, it makes sense that Harry would automatically look toward the person they named his godfather for advice. I also think Lupin consciously chose to allow that relationship between Harry and Sirius to develop; to not "step on anyone's toes" so to speak. Lupin is highly considerate of others' feelings--look how he treated Harry and Neville. It wouldn't be too far of a leap then to assume Lupin wanted to make sure he wasn't getting in the way of Sirius' and Harry's relationship.
I also think, as others have said, that Lupin's initial role as a professor to Harry has colored Harry's and his view of their relationship. It is difficult to move beyond a purely professional relationship into a more personal one. However, as RemusLupinFan pointed out, there have been instances during which their relationship has grown, and I think they will even grow closer in the coming books.
I've said something about this in earlier threads, but I'd like to reiterate that I believe Lupin is the key to helping Harry with his grief about Sirius' death. Who better than one of Sirius' best friends to help Harry deal with pain and loss? Lupin has been there before--not only has he lost James and Lily, but he also thought Sirius had betrayed him and Peter was dead, only to find out the exact opposite was true. Lupin has been through a lot in his short life, and knows well the feelings of pain and isolation that can occur when one has lost someone they love. Add this to Lupin's sensitivity to others, and it makes a good recipe for helping Harry. We will have to see whether Harry initiates this process or not--though we've seen Harry come to Lupin before, it wouldn't surprise me if Harry isolated himself and withdrew from everyone, including Ron and Hermione. Grief is a terrible process to go through, and it doesn't get any easier after just a couple of weeks. I am hoping the reason Harry leaves Privet Drive so early is because he will be going to a place where he and Lupin will be able to talk.

LinnendeBlack
April 6th, 2005, 8:17 pm
:welcome: to any new faces!
I must say I love all the King Arthur connections being made here. I personally love everything to do with King Arthur and love all the myths and legends about him. :)

This part of the book I find strange. Lupin was never described as a great dueller, and I believe Moody to be more capable; yet Moody was knocked out in seconds and Lupin didn't get a scratch.

I believe Remus is a lot more powerful than he appears to be. There is never any direct mention about how powerful he is but there are a lot of hints. The fact that JK is hiding his true powers from us might be because they are important in the future.
I don't think there is any reason for him not to be powerful. Here's a few reasons why I think he is a very powerful wizard:

-He was a Marauder, in school they were the brightest and the coolest, Remus was probably the cleverest and he read books all the time and got really good grades and things.
-He is very high up in the Order. A lot of us here think he could be doing some important work such as spying on Death Eater whereabouts, and somebody a while ago came up with a fantastic idea that he is making a Marauder's Map style map of the city so he can find out where any Death Eaters are. Also he is the only one apart from Dumbledore to have a key to Grimmauld Place.
-There are a lot of references to Remus looking tired all the time, being shabby, poor and ill. I think with this J.K is trying to fool us into thinking that he is this frail pathetic person and "he looks like one good hex would finish him off." as Ron said in PoA. However I think the twist will be that Remus is actually a very powerful wizard underneath all that.
-He managed to teach Harry the patronus. Although it was never said that he performed one himself I believe he can because if he can teach someone how to do it then he must be able to at least attempt it. He was also DADA teacher and that is probably a requirement, and also he is a very clever man.
-In the DOM duel he was one of the only ones that came out unharmed. I think the reason we were told practically nothing of his duelling ability is because we are supposed to be reading this through the eyes of Harry. Harry would have been concentrating on what he was doing at the time rather than what Remus was doing.

I loved at the end of POA that Harry felt he had a right to march into Remus's office and argue with him about resigning. I also felt a surge of relief in OOTP when Remus was there to rescue Harry from Privet drive, thinking Harry would get some nurturing after the horrors at the end of GOF.

:welcome:! Don't be intimidated, we don't bite. :p

Somebody made a fantastic connection a few threads back about Remus rescuing Harry from Privet Drive.
In the Philosophers Stone Harry says something about wishing somebody would just take him away from here, and in PoA Remus turns up and says "hello Harry, we've come to take you away." I'm sorry I don't have my book with me right now but it was a really good connection.

Nephel
April 6th, 2005, 8:46 pm
:welcome: to any new faces!
I must say I love all the King Arthur connections being made here. I personally love everything to do with King Arthur and love all the myths and legends about him. :)



I believe Remus is a lot more powerful than he appears to be. There is never any direct mention about how powerful he is but there are a lot of hints. The fact that JK is hiding his true powers from us might be because they are important in the future.
I don't think there is any reason for him not to be powerful. Here's a few reasons why I think he is a very powerful wizard:

-He was a Marauder, in school they were the brightest and the coolest, Remus was probably the cleverest and he read books all the time and got really good grades and things.


Pettigrew was also a Marauder and look what happened to him. :scared:

Sirius and James were described as the brightest wizards in thier year; I think Lupin was more accademical and afraid to venture of the path, the way James and Sirius did.


-He is very high up in the Order. A lot of us here think he could be doing some important work such as spying on Death Eater whereabouts, and somebody a while ago came up with a fantastic idea that he is making a Marauder's Map style map of the city so he can find out where any Death Eaters are. Also he is the only one apart from Dumbledore to have a key to Grimmauld Place.


As I said before, Lupin was the only one Sirius trusted enough to give a key. There is no detail of Sirius ever consorting with Dumbeldore prior to PoA, so I don't think Sirius could have ever grown to trust Dumbledore.

hobbitseeker
April 6th, 2005, 8:57 pm
Pettigrew was also a Marauder and look what happened to him. :scared:

Sirius and James were described as the brightest wizards in thier year; I think Lupin was more accademical and afraid to venture of the path, the way James and Sirius did.

Obviously Remus was bright enough to learn all he needed to know to become a DADA professor--and "the best one [they] ever had", according to Dean Thomas.



As I said before, Lupin was the only one Sirius trusted enough to give a key. There is no detail of Sirius ever consorting with Dumbeldore prior to PoA, so I don't think Sirius could have ever grown to trust Dumbledore.

Dumbledore knew Sirius was chosen to be the Potters' secret keeper--it wouldn't be too much of a leap to think that they were in some sort of communication during Vold War I. Also, Sirius trusted Dumbledore enough to be continually corresponding with Dumbledore during Goblet of Fire. Plus Sirius trusted Dumbledore enough to give up his own house for the Order.

However, regardless of the key incident, I gave many other examples a few posts back on page 1 as to why Remus is a leader within the Order and tried to answer some of your questions there. :)

InnocentEyes
April 6th, 2005, 9:47 pm
Obviously Remus was bright enough to learn all he needed to know to become a DADA professor--and "the best one [they] ever had", according to Dean Thomas.

This kind of ventures far but it does get me thinking about if he even liked DADA. He could of took the job to repay Dumbledore for allowing him into Hogwarts and they couldn't find anyone else who'd take it. He could of took the job because he needed to live. Or he could of took the job because he liked DADA as well. It's already mentioned that Charms was Lily's best subject so it's assumed it's her favorite. It's also assumed that James's favorite subject is Transfiguration. I wonder what was Lupin's. I don't recall him mentioning much about himself in the books. Always focused on James, Lily, and Sirius. I know that these are his parents and their best bud but c'mon. Sirius is dead so maybe Harry'll get closer to Lupin and find out more in the next book (which seems years away) or the last one (which seems even farter).

gottaloveLupin
April 6th, 2005, 9:57 pm
Pettigrew was also a Marauder and look what happened to him.

Sirius and James were described as the brightest wizards in thier year; I think Lupin was more accademical and afraid to venture of the path, the way James and Sirius did.

Hi! Welcome Nephel!

There are several scenes that may hint that Remus is much more powerful than we are lead to believe:

- there is the train scene in POA where: 1. he confronts the dementor without using his wand, first! He just asks the Dementor to go away. This shows a lot of strenght and a lot of courage!

2. he seems to conjure flames without a wand

- there is also the mOM scene where Lupin is the only one not hurt;

And there are otjer details such as his " misterious work for the Order" and other that Elf or Loup can explain much better.

About the brightest, the cleverest etc, I have a big problem with this. Not with what you have said, but with what people seem to think in general: that Remus was less clever than J/S.

I don't think it's true. Maybe, maybe it was true that J/S were more natural talented and every piece of magic came easy for them. Their innate qualities were also helped by the fact that they grew in powerful pureblood families and they dealt with magic sice very young.

Maybe, maybe Remus had to work harder, especially as he had to miss classes because of his condition.

But I cannot believe that Remus was less inteligent that J/S. I got very sad the other day when I heard a person whose opinion I respected a lot, and who I thought was also a fan of Remus saying that Remus was less inteligent than James and Sirius, but he worked hard and he had good sense!

i don't think it was true! J/S may have been the most talented and they were also helped by their out-going personality, but I am positive that remus was as inteligent as them, at least!

goldennib
April 6th, 2005, 10:11 pm
i don't think it was true! J/S may have been the most talented and they were also helped by their out-going personality, but I am positive that remus was as inteligent as them, at least!

I think their personalities make a big difference in how people saw them. I think they were all equally talented (even Peter became an Animagus at that age) but Lupin always had to play it low key, for protection for himself, and Dumbledore who went out on a limb for him. I don't think Lupin could afford to draw too much attention to himself. I think that may be one of the reasons why he didn't get involved when James and Sirius were picking on Snape.

Laika
April 6th, 2005, 10:31 pm
I think people are trying to compare Remus to James and Sirius when I think it's much more likely that they each had their own areas of expertise. In that way, I agree with the people who compare Remus with Hermione -- both are book-smart and very capable. James and Sirius may have been better at certain things (just like Harry's better at DADA), but overall, I think Remus was the best student because he was more willing to apply himself.

Medmera
April 6th, 2005, 10:51 pm
I love the character of Lupin. And considering how JK expands her characters as the books progress I feel certain she will dig much deeper in his secrets, personality and past.

I do suspect he will die in book 6 tho. And I suppose most people have already thought about and discussed the significance of Peter Pettigrew recieving a silver hand in the end of book 4. I am of course referring to the common legend about werewolves that they can only be killed with silver, silver bullets and such.

If Lupin is the half-blood prince, a thought that i must admit had not crossed my mind so much until I looked through this thread, then he will have a much more central role in the next enstallment than at least I had imagined.

Unify all halfbloods, including giants and centaurs, and fight the nasty dementors and possibly goblins in the name of good. Doesnt really seem to be in the character of Lupin to take such an assignment and stand there with a heroic smile and the wind blowing through his hair when the day is done. I suppose that the messiahic role that the theorizers think Lupin will play includes the sacrifice? Because if he would play the part of unifier he would have to die, living and getting praise for what he has done is not the type of luck Lupin gets.

I still don't like the theory that much because the death of Lupin would clash with the death of Dumbledore. Harry has to be alone in the end and I dont think an urgent owl from london will lure Dumble out of the way in book 7 like it did in book 1. Still Dumble could do a Ben Kenobi and just appear as a ghost in one form or another to aid harry, something I wouldnt expect from Lupin. ARGH all the theories flood my head.

gottaloveLupin
April 6th, 2005, 11:22 pm
Quote:
With regards to the father figure, I think Dumbledore hs already stolen that role, within all of the 5 books. Though if Dumbledore dies, then I think Lupin will take over that role.

I agree with everyone who said that it is not exactly the same thing. I don't have the books with me, so please correct me if I am wromg, but I do not remember Harry telling very personal things to DD. He asked for his advice and he obviously respects him and cares about him a lot. he considers him the most powerful wizard alive and until OOTp there was probably noone he trusted most, but DD was not a father figure. he was a mentor, a person who offered guidance, like Gandalf in LOTR.

Remus is much more personal, in a way. He is much more accesible. I can see Harry opening to him at some point and trusting him enough to confide in him about the most personal things.

by RemusLupinFan You know, itís funny you should say this, because in the ĎDeconstructing the Maraudersí thread, some people seemed to think that Lupin and Sirius were glossing over the whole event by reminiscing, and that they werenít giving Harry the answers he was looking for. Iím interested to hear what you guys think about this, because Iím also of the opinion that Lupinís and Siriusís nostalgia showed that both were remembering the good times they shared with a good friend, even if their actions werenít exactly praiseworthy.

I've never seen that scene as Remus and Sirius telling Harry lies about his father, hiding Harry the truth. I am with you that the scene was really sweet, endearing, nostalgic and a little sad. I really liked seeing Remus and Sirius remembering the old times. It created a bond both between Remus and Sirius- friends of the so many years, sharing nso many things- and a bond between R/J/S. They remembered their friend. They remebered things they had not thought about for a long time. things that may appear as insignificant, but were very important, because they defined James and their time together as marauders.

Both Sirius and Remus were forced to look forward and push their memories deep inside. It is sweet and sad seeing them remembering their long ago lost friend. I really can understand them and feel what they felt. You can't say a bad word about a lost friend. Even the bad things turn into funny things and you can't remember your friend with anything else than affection.

It is nice to see Remus participating in this discussion. It proves that he was very close to James, too, that he cared about him a lot , too.

Originally Posted by hobbitseeker
I think Remus teaching Harry the Patronus was more than just teaching a charm--it was teaching Harry to be positive, even when so much is going wrong; to find happiness and strength within himself when darkness is all around him. I think this is an important lesson, and definitely one Harry will need to draw upon in the coming books.

Also, Harry will have to draw strenght and hidden powers from his past. Another lesson Lupin taught Harry.

Originally Posted by Mugglelvr
His character is a lot like Harry's in that the reader feels for him. He's had a hard life and faced many obstacles, yet still maintains hope and kindness to others. He is the poster child for Dumbledore's speech to Harry about choices.

Interesting that Dumbledore talks about choices at the end of book 2, and then, next book, Lupin enters the story!

Elf, Loup Grat theory! You may be into something!

hobbitseeker
April 6th, 2005, 11:32 pm
This kind of ventures far but it does get me thinking about if he even liked DADA. He could of took the job to repay Dumbledore for allowing him into Hogwarts and they couldn't find anyone else who'd take it. He could of took the job because he needed to live. Or he could of took the job because he liked DADA as well. It's already mentioned that Charms was Lily's best subject so it's assumed it's her favorite. It's also assumed that James's favorite subject is Transfiguration. I wonder what was Lupin's. I don't recall him mentioning much about himself in the books. Always focused on James, Lily, and Sirius. I know that these are his parents and their best bud but c'mon. Sirius is dead so maybe Harry'll get closer to Lupin and find out more in the next book (which seems years away) or the last one (which seems even farter).

Although you are right in your statement that we do not know for sure whether Remus enjoys DADA, it seems to me that anyone who could produce a Patronus would have a definite grasp of DADA knowledge, as the Patronus charm is advanced DADA from what we've been told. And usually if a person excells in a subject, they tend to enjoy that subject. Remus even took the time to teach Harry outside of his regular class, which went above and beyond the duty of his job. One would think that if Remus didn't like DADA, he wouldn't have gone to so much trouble to teach a subject he didn't like to Harry. I also hope that we will find out more about Lupin in the upcoming books!

I love the character of Lupin. And considering how JK expands her characters as the books progress I feel certain she will dig much deeper in his secrets, personality and past.

I do suspect he will die in book 6 tho. And I suppose most people have already thought about and discussed the significance of Peter Pettigrew recieving a silver hand in the end of book 4. I am of course referring to the common legend about werewolves that they can only be killed with silver, silver bullets and such.

:welcome: Medmera! I too hope that JKR will delve deeper into Remus' character.

However, I have to disagree that Remus will die by the hand of Peter. We do not know whether JKR subscribes to the notion that silver kills werewolves. However, at Grimmauld place Mundungus asks Sirius about the silver goblets the Order members are drinking from. Sirius states that they are indeed made of silver.

"Yes," said Sirius, surveying it with distaste. "Finest fifteenth-century goblin-wrought silver"

Later in the same scene, we see "Lupin, who had been about to take a sip of wine, lowered his goblet slowly, looking wary."

Lupin was drinking out of a silver goblet and didn't die.

In most of werewolf lore, the silver has to get into the bloodstream of the werewolf in order to kill him. It would be quite difficult for Peter's hand to get into Remus' bloodstream (hence the slogan "There will be no death by poking!").


If Lupin is the half-blood prince, a thought that i must admit had not crossed my mind so much until I looked through this thread, then he will have a much more central role in the next enstallment than at least I had imagined.

Unify all halfbloods, including giants and centaurs, and fight the nasty dementors and possibly goblins in the name of good. Doesnt really seem to be in the character of Lupin to take such an assignment and stand there with a heroic smile and the wind blowing through his hair when the day is done. I suppose that the messiahic role that the theorizers think Lupin will play includes the sacrifice? Because if he would play the part of unifier he would have to die, living and getting praise for what he has done is not the type of luck Lupin gets.

I still don't like the theory that much because the death of Lupin would clash with the death of Dumbledore. Harry has to be alone in the end and I dont think an urgent owl from london will lure Dumble out of the way in book 7 like it did in book 1. Still Dumble could do a Ben Kenobi and just appear as a ghost in one form or another to aid harry, something I wouldnt expect from Lupin. ARGH all the theories flood my head.

I tend to think that Lupin will indeed have a more central role in book 6.

I also think you might be making an assumption when you say that the HBP will "unify all half-bloods...in the name of good." We have yet to know the significance of the title 'Half-Blood Prince.' The prince could unify the half-bloods, or could be a prince OF the half-bloods who dictates what half-bloods can or cannot do, or could just be a prince who is half-blooded and is a prince of something totally different. We just don't know yet. However, I see no reason why Remus couldn't unite all the half-bloods et. al. Who better than Remus to speak for those on the fringes of society who have been discriminated against by others? Remus knows what it is like to feel like a second class citizen. I think half-bloods, centaurs, goblins and others would respect Remus because of that.

Mugglelvr
April 7th, 2005, 12:01 am
Maybe it's only me, but Lupin has aways seemed a bit... detatched... from Harry at times. It has always puzzled me as to why they weren't any closer, and I think this may have been because Lupin made sure that there was a bit of distance between them, possibly because his Werewolf problem does haunt him and drives him farther away from people. Though of coarse, the bridge scene in the movie (which was just beautiful) did show a growing bond between them, and now that Harry is older he might gain a new appreciation for Lupin's more mature, steady approach.

Lupin does seem very standoffish from Harry. It seems that he wanted to keep a distance between himself and Harry in PoA, mostly because he didn't want Harry to know how close he had been to James and Sirius. Lupin worked hard to be kind and even compassionate to Harry while they were building their relationship, but he didn't give away too much information which would have drawn Harry even nearer to him, like the fact that he knew James and was friends with him. Lupin didn't reveal to Harry that he had known James until Harry began to learn the Patronus, half way through the school year. It wasn't until Harry's second attempt, and the first time Harry had heard his father's voice when faced with the Dementor/Boggart that Lupin ever so hesitantly admitted he knew James, which was a complete surprise to Harry, and then Harry asked about Sirius and Lupin seemed to withdraw again. All of Lupin's hesitations toward Harry seemed to be based on his knowledge of the Marauders, and his desire to keep his secrets, even from Dumbledore.

Sirius is (was) handsome, charming, charismatic even, and was James' closest friend and Harry's godfather. There is an additional bond between them because Harry saved Sirius' life.

Not to toot Harry's horn or anything, but he actually saved Sirius's life three times that night. First, by not killing Sirius himself, when he wanted to so badly, then by saving him from the Dementors, and finally rescuing him from Fudge and sending him off on Buckbeak. Sirius was not only impressed by his knew-found godson, but I imagine he was rather in awe, along with Lupin. For a thirteen-year-old boy to do the things that Harry had done in his short life would be enough to impress anyone, much less those who knew him when he was only a baby, and knew that he had survived death himself so many times. I'm sure that both Lupin and Sirius were quite impressed with Harry's accomplishments.

Why arenít Harry and Lupin closer?
As was mentioned, I think Sirius was a large factor that prevented Harry and Lupin from developing a deeper relationship, althoug I donít mean that in a bad way. Sirius was Harryís godfather, the one who was the next logical father figure for Harry. While Sirius was still alive, Lupin didnít try to develop the relationship with Harry because this was Siriusí right as a godfather. Now that Sirius is gone, someone will have to fill the void that Sirius left behind in Harryís life, and that someone will most likely be Lupin.

It could be that Lupin didn't want to seem like an interloper on Sirius and Harry's relationship. Maybe he thought he'd distance himself from Harry and give Sirius his chance to bond with Harry. Lupin was missing completely throughout Harry's fourth year. This was the time for Sirius and Harry to bond - but in Harry's fifth year, Lupin was a very visible and necessary presence. He was there, yet didn't cross the line too far into Sirius's space. I have a feeling now that Sirius is gone that Lupin will be a much more prominent and compassionate figure in Harry's life. and you're right RemusLupinFan, it will be Lupin who helps Harry go on with his life, and both of them can go through the grieving process together. I think Dumbledore will be a big part of Harry's life in HBP, but Lupin will be the one Harry depends on for advice and nurturing.

As had been pointed out already, Harry calls Lupin, "Professor" even though he doesn't teach anymore. I don't think that's because there is a stiff, formal air between them, but it's a form of respect. I can't picture Harry calling him Remus, or Mr. Lupin. The title of Professor was how Harry knew him with their initial meeting, and I think Lupin still has a lot to teach Harry so I would assume the title will stick. I have the feeling that Lupin will be there to teach Harry in HBP - they had such a good rapport while Harry was learning the Patronus, and I can see that carrying on into the future. Harry learns best in a comfortable, relaxed atmosphere as has been exampled with the contrasting classroom etiquette of Snape. I can see Lupin working with Harry to teach him extra spells - especially since one of the few things that Harry has left of Sirius is the set of DADA books that Lupin and Sirius bought him for Christmas.

kingwidgit
April 7th, 2005, 12:26 am
However, I have to disagree that Remus will die by the hand of Peter. We do not know whether JKR subscribes to the notion that silver kills werewolves. However, at Grimmauld place Mundungus asks Sirius about the silver goblets the Order members are drinking from. Sirius states that they are indeed made of silver.

"Yes," said Sirius, surveying it with distaste. "Finest fifteenth-century goblin-wrought silver"

Later in the same scene, we see "Lupin, who had been about to take a sip of wine, lowered his goblet slowly, looking wary."

Lupin was drinking out of a silver goblet and didn't die.

In most of werewolf lore, the silver has to get into the bloodstream of the werewolf in order to kill him. It would be quite difficult for Peter's hand to get into Remus' bloodstream (hence the slogan "There will be no death by poking!").I have to agree with you, No Death By Poking. Interesting enough, it is uncommon in traditional werewolf folklore that werewolves are allergic to silver. Werewolves have been used in many movies, short stories, and novels, with varying degrees of success. The genre was made popular in recent times by the classic Universal Studios movie The Wolf Man (1941), starring Lon Chaney Jr. as the werewolf Larry Talbot. This movie contained the now-famous rhyme: "Even a man who is pure in heart / And says his prayers at night / May become a wolf when the wolf-bane blooms / And the autumn moon is bright." This movie is often credited with originating several aspects of the legend which differ from traditional folklore (including invulnerability to non-silver weapons, contagiousness, and association with the moon).The silver allergy was because Lon Cheney was a vampire. He could become a werewolf--but the silver allergy was due to being a vampire.
What I've noticed about JKR, and she has stated herself, that she takes folklore, myths, fantastic creatures, etc., and then modifies all to fit the HP universe.
Just because modern--and not so modern movies/books depict werewolves being allergic to silver, doesn't mean that JKR will follow that path. Remus as a werewolf, may have no allergy to silver at all.

Dollmage
April 7th, 2005, 12:53 am
Finally... I go to school for one day-one day you hear, and I have two pages of stuff to read and I can't even remember what I said last time...lol

But the first thing I must refer to is Remus's strength.

How do I say this? I want to make some sort of connection between Remus being able to do strong magic after transformations(not directly after-but still weakened from it) because that would add to his strength. He was able to cast a partial patronus, fire in his hands, and he is in the order and fought well in the DOM.

About him being less intelligent than James and Sirius-I think its dumb to think that because I have always thought of him as the smartest/most knowledgable. This comparison to me is like comparing my friends and I. (I am not trying to sound conceited or anything...) but all of my friends and I are pretty smart and stuff but we are each better at something else. Becca=math, Jenny=Science, Melissa(Me)=English...etc. We are all good at everything overall but its just like Lily=Charms, James=Transfiguration, etc. James and Sirius were much more open about them being good at everything, whereas I don't think Remus went around bragging about it.

I'm not trying to make Remus sound like he was a saint compared to J/S, because if he was a complete goody two shoes, he probably wouldn't have been a Marauder-he had to have some disregard to the rules. Which is not a bad thing, I do think that sometimes a little rule breaking keeps you from going insane. I'm just saying that Remus is not like Percy and obsessed with impressing everybody. He just wants to live his life.

It kinda makes me think how different Remus would be if he never had become a werewolf...

Oh...and welcome to everyone who has come....

RemusLupinFan
April 7th, 2005, 1:00 am
Maybe it's only me, but Lupin has aways seemed a bit... detatched... from Harry at times. It has always puzzled me as to why they weren't any closer, and I think this may have been because Lupin made sure that there was a bit of distance between them, possibly because his Werewolf problem does haunt him and drives him farther away from people. Though of coarse, the bridge scene in the movie (which was just beautiful) did show a growing bond between them, and now that Harry is older he might gain a new appreciation for Lupin's more mature, steady approach.You're definitely right that Lupin may seem a bit detached at first glance, but if you look closely, there are several ways that Lupin does show Harry he cares for him just a bit more than an average student. Lupin is very subtle with his emotional displays most of the time. He has small ways of showing his affection and care for Harry.

For example, in PoA when Harry tells Lupin what he hears when the dementors get too close to him, he makes a sudden gesture as if to grab Harryís arm to comfort him, but thinks better of it (because he feels it would be awkward, as Harry is still his student). Another example is when Lupin gives Harry butterbeer after many dementor-battling lessons. Yet another is the fact that he gives Harry back the Marauders Map, telling him that he has no use for it but that Harry certainly does.

In OotP, another example occurs when Lupin is seeing Harry off to go to Hogwarts. He gives him a handshake and a special pat on the back. Also, we can see a very blatant instance where Lupin tells us rather forcefully that Molly is not the only one who cares for Harry during the argument she had with Sirius. Finally at the end of OotP, Lupin tells Harry to keep in touch- a strong foreshadowing to a continued personal relationship between the two.

From looking at these examples, we can see that while Lupin does appear to be distant and reserved around Harry, Lupin still found ways to express his care for Harry within the boundaries of their relationship that told Harry how fond he was of him. Even Ron notices that Lupin likes Harry when he suggests that Lupin could have bought Harry the Firebolt. So I do think that while Lupinís emotions and displays of affection toward Harry arenít entirely obvious, they are definitely there, and I think Harry does know how much Lupin cares for him.

Elf
April 7th, 2005, 1:32 am
original post by Medmera
I suppose that the messiahic role that the theorizers think Lupin will play includes the sacrifice? Because if he would play the part of unifier he would have to die, living and getting praise for what he has done is not the type of luck Lupin gets.
Yes, we do believe Lupin's messianic role will involve the sacrifice, which may be shocking to some posters here. We do, however, also believe that there will be a parallel to the resurrection. Notice that similar to a phoenix Lupin goes through this sort of rebirth process on a monthly basis.

Now, JKR did say that wizards cannot "magically" return from the dead, however we feel that she is going to make an important distinction between magic and miracle in the Potterverse. Here's the quote where she answered someone's question concerning whether or not Lily would return from the dead:

Well, it would be nice, but - I'll tell you something - you - you've raised a really interesting point there, Peter, because when I started writing the books, the first thing I had to decide was not what magic can do, but what it can't do. I had to set limits on it -immediately, and decide what the parameters are ... and one of the most important things I - I decided was that magic cannot bring dead people back to life; that' - that's one of the most profound things, the - the natural law of - of - of death applies to wizards as it applies to Muggles and there is no returning once you're properly dead, you know, they might be able to save very close-to-death people better than we can, by magic - that they - that they have certain knowledge we don't, but once you're dead, you're dead. So - erm - yeah, I'm afraid there will be no coming back for Harry's parents. (Interview on Boston radio Show "The Connection")

We think that the reason JKR talks about it being a profound thing that wizards have to obey they laws of nature just like Muggles, is because there will be a circumstance when someone who is far more than just an ordinary wizard will break the laws of nature and return from the dead. I'll also add that we think Fawkes will be part of this process, as we believe Fawkes to be a representation of the Holy Spirit. For those who are familiar with other aspects of our theory, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out that we think Godric Gryffindor is symbolic of God the Father and that all three members of the Trinity are being portrayed.

And concerning that silver hand of Peter's, no, we most certainly do not think he's going to poke Lupin with it. If one considers the fact that Wormtail is a betrayer and then compares this to the events and people surrounding Christ's death, it likely won't take very long to come to the conclusion that Judas and his thirty pieces of silver are being represented here.

Anyway, that's a very brief explanation of our view on this and feel free to think we are lunatics. ;)

goldennib
April 7th, 2005, 1:39 am
I have also thought that the savior story was being played out in the books, but I looked at Harry as the saviour figure because his petronus is a stag, The Horned God of Celtic pagan belief.

Fenshae
April 7th, 2005, 1:43 am
All good points about the difference between Lupin's and Sirius's relationships with Harry. I'm reminded of that scene in OotP in the fireplace, and the subtle but distinct differences in their reactions--the same with that scene with Molly's boggart, if memory serves. Lupin's just very calm and much more rational than Sirius...gentler, if you will.

I agree with the Job analogy--I think it seems to click a little bit better. If anybody in the series seems Christ-like, it's Harry himself (savior of wizarding kind from Voldemort and all that)...but then I still haven't had a chance to read the theory so I'll have to do that tonight when I'm on my own computer.

It's also interesting to see the concept of Lupin as a literal, royal prince. I've always assumed that HBP is a Machiavellian (sp?) term, not referring to an *actual* prince. Intriguing....

Elf
April 7th, 2005, 2:19 am
original post by Fenshae
I agree with the Job analogy--I think it seems to click a little bit better. If anybody in the series seems Christ-like, it's Harry himself (savior of wizarding kind from Voldemort and all that)...but then I still haven't had a chance to read the theory so I'll have to do that tonight when I'm on my own computer.
Just to warn you the theory we previously posted mostly touches on Arthurian legend and not on what we've posted here. This is the first time Loup and I have openly stated that we think Lupin is a Christ figure. The rest is part of the evolution of our theory, although we do still feel it plays a significant part.

This talk about Job is interesting because I've always seen Harry as rather like Job. My thought on the matter is that Harry will discover he cannot save the wizard world on his own and that's where Lupin, the Christ figure comes in, although still not overshadowing Harry in the plot, but serving as the source of Harry's strength. Again, just my opinion though.

aCiDxXxdRoP
April 7th, 2005, 2:27 am
Question, question! I'm just curious as to who in the books said that James and Sirius were the brightest students of their year? Because the only person that I can remember saying it was Remus himself, and as we all well know, Remus is much too modest to claim any glory for himself. From what we could tell in the pensieve scene in Ootp, he was quite the bookworm. But, I'm thinking the other person to say it was McGonagall, and the only reason why I think she remembered the smart ones to be J/S was because of their need to "show off." Like it's been said before, Remus isn't the type to draw attention to himself, it must have made him very uncomfortable.

Mugglelvr
April 7th, 2005, 2:27 am
You know, itís funny you should say this, because in the ĎDeconstructing the Maraudersí thread, some people seemed to think that Lupin and Sirius were glossing over the whole event by reminiscing, and that they werenít giving Harry the answers he was looking for. Iím interested to hear what you guys think about this, because Iím also of the opinion that Lupinís and Siriusís nostalgia showed that both were remembering the good times they shared with a good friend, even if their actions werenít exactly praiseworthy.

Here's my two cents worth :)

Even though this scene didn't appear to be very comforting to Harry, I think it was very enlightening. The scene might have looked at as though Lupin and Sirius didn't fulfill Harry's expectations of what he wanted to hear. The way Lupin and Sirius discussed James, it was almost as if they detached themselves from Harry's concerns for only a moment. Maybe this is why some people looked upon the scene as incomplete in their adult, nurturing duties, but I saw it differently. Harry risked so much to go into Umbridge's fire to speak to Sirius about what he saw in the Pensieve - when he confronted both of them with his concerns and they took a short walk down memory lane, this gave Harry a moment to realize that his father had been a real person with real friends. They had a real friendship, something solid and strong - something that, for only a moment, Harry could see and feel. I think the tenderness and nostalgia that passed between Lupin and Sirius at the memory of James was very important for Harry's understanding of the strength that flowed between his father and his two best friends. Along with the realization that his father was a real person, I think Harry saw a little of what Sirius and Lupin said was true - that James was only fifteen at the time, and he and Snape hated each other. It didn't cure all of Harry's uncertain feelings, but the whole scene helped him realize his father wasn't perfect, but he wasn't the mean, vindictive person Harry thought he saw in the Pensieve.

About him being less intelligent than James and Sirius-I think its dumb to think that because I have always thought of him as the smartest/most knowledgable. This comparison to me is like comparing my friends and I. (I am not trying to sound conceited or anything...) but all of my friends and I are pretty smart and stuff but we are each better at something else. Becca=math, Jenny=Science, Melissa(Me)=English...etc. We are all good at everything overall but its just like Lily=Charms, James=Transfiguration, etc. James and Sirius were much more open about them being good at everything, whereas I don't think Remus went around bragging about it.

Youíre so right - Lupin seems to be very intelligent. He's almost the epitome of the "strong, silent type." You know there is so much more to him than what we're shown - and yet, he is a simple man, with hopes and dreams like everyone else. Being a werewolf has changed his life, and if anything made him a stronger, more resilient person. Like Harry, he's lived through some seemingly insurmountable odds, yet you get the feeling that all the trials and tribulations have made him a stronger, kinder, more considerate human being.

kingwidgit
April 7th, 2005, 3:24 am
Question, question! I'm just curious as to who in the books said that James and Sirius were the brightest students of their year? Because the only person that I can remember saying it was Remus himself, and as we all well know, Remus is much too modest to claim any glory for himself. From what we could tell in the pensieve scene in Ootp, he was quite the bookworm. But, I'm thinking the other person to say it was McGonagall, and the only reason why I think she remembered the smart ones to be J/S was because of their need to "show off." Like it's been said before, Remus isn't the type to draw attention to himself, it must have made him very uncomfortable.Here you go!
POA, The Marauder's Map, 204:
"Precisely," said Professor McGonagall. "Black and Potter. Ringleader's of their little gang. Both very bright, of course---exceptionally bright, in fact---but I don't think we've ever had such a pair of troublemakers---"-------
POA, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs, 354:
"Your father and Sirius here were the cleverest students in the school, and lucky they were, because the Animagus transformation can go horribly wrong---" (Remus)
-------
OoP, Career Advice, pg. 670:
Lupin looked sideways at Sirius and then said, "Look, Harry, what you've got to understand is that your father and Sirius were the best in the school at whatever they did---"

Can anyone remember who said Lily & James were Headboy/Headgirl--and where it was found? I'm not sure, but there may be a similar quote to those above, and apparantly my brain has failed to recall where I read it...lack of sleep.

Never mind, I found it.
PS/SS, The Keeper of the Keys, pg. 55:
"Now, your mum an' dad were as good a witch an' wizard as I ever knew. Head boy an' girl at Hogwarts in their day!"

Credo Buffa
April 7th, 2005, 5:20 am
I think people are trying to compare Remus to James and Sirius when I think it's much more likely that they each had their own areas of expertise. In that way, I agree with the people who compare Remus with Hermione -- both are book-smart and very capable. James and Sirius may have been better at certain things (just like Harry's better at DADA), but overall, I think Remus was the best student because he was more willing to apply himself.
Excellent point. I agree that Remus was more of the bookworm type of the group and probably spent more time studying than James and Sirius did. I see the two of them as those people who get good grades without really having to try, but who in the end come up a bit short because they haven't really learned how to apply themselves. That's not to say they aren't intelligent people, it's just that they way they approach situations is different because they've generally had things so easy. Remus, on the other hand, probably absorbed more because he did apply himself more, and that would be to his advantage in the end.

It's interesting that in the quotes you posted, kingwidgit, that Lupin himself is actually the one stating point blank that James and Sirius were the brightest in their year. . . and we do know him very well to sell himself short. So, with that in mind, it's very fair to say that he could have easily been right up there with the two of them academically.

LunaGoldstein
April 7th, 2005, 11:32 am
Just to warn you the theory we previously posted mostly touches on Arthurian legend and not on what we've posted here. This is the first time Loup and I have openly stated that we think Lupin is a Christ figure. The rest is part of the evolution of our theory, although we do still feel it plays a significant part.

This talk about Job is interesting because I've always seen Harry as rather like Job. My thought on the matter is that Harry will discover he cannot save the wizard world on his own and that's where Lupin, the Christ figure comes in, although still not overshadowing Harry in the plot, but serving as the source of Harry's strength. Again, just my opinion though.


Hmm... I think this is a point where we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I just see Lupin as an 'ordinary man' with an extraordinary human spirit as a survivor. Also I have a natural cynicsm towards Christ/messianic figures in general (not even as a religious thing either) so I just don't think I can see Lupin as one. I mean it's not even something I could debate or argue I just... don't. I mean I'm always open to new theories and I know that there's lots that could happen, it's just how I see him.

Morganda
April 7th, 2005, 1:05 pm
Let me start by saying, "WOW!" I'm so impressed with how articulate you guys are. I mean, you write complete sentences with punctuation and everything! I believe this might be the first thread I've found that consistently has people posting paragraphs. THANK YOU! I'm on the same page as finshae: I've always loved Lupin, but never really spent much time thinking about him. But now that I've read the bulk of this thread, I'm fascinated. So many unanswered questions! I also feel like a bit of an intruder, but I'll be rude and stay because it's refreshing to read posts from intelligent people.

Let me go ahead and apologize for anything I might bring up that you've already discussed ad infinitem...

Here's my first thought on what I've read above:
By the same token, Lupin has had to go through so much with regard to lycanthropy and the immediate prejudice against it that he has probably learned over the years to believe that most people just don't want to be around him. He'll just naturally assume a distance with people, however kind they might seem, because he never knows when the truth about his condition will come out and how they will react. He's probably taught himself that by not getting too close to anyone, he can't be hurt (although undoubtedly he is) by their responses to him.

By the same token, it seems that the Marauders are the only adults Lupin has been close to. Surely he would assume that he would never find a group of people to sacrifice so much to hang out with him. I'm thinking he might have purposely distanced himself from people in general (esp Harry) to keep THEM safe. He has no clue what he does when's changed and he no longer has Padfoot and Prongs (screw Wormtail-bleh) to keep his head straight. So maybe he's withdrawn from Harry for that reason-to protect Harry. It's similar to the reason Dumbledore tried not to care too much about Harry...he knows that adding that layer of relationship is dangerous for so many reasons.

Lupin as HBP
I've given very little thought to who the HBP is, simply because I want to be surprised on July 16th. Having said that, the only other theory (other than the theory that the HBP is a brand new character) that I've heard is that Snape is the HBP. I don't want it to be true and the only evidence I've even read is the UK Adult HBP cover. The book is called "Advanced Potion Making". Not exactly irrefutable proof. Anyway, all of your evidence is fascinating. I can't wait to read the thread that was linked on page one.

My post is not nearly as linear as I wanted it to be, but oh well. I'm going to get to reading and hopefully post some more...

kingwidgit
April 7th, 2005, 2:46 pm
Lupin as HBP
I've given very little thought to who the HBP is, simply because I want to be surprised on July 16th. Having said that, the only other theory (other than the theory that the HBP is a brand new character) that I've heard is that Snape is the HBP. I don't want it to be true and the only evidence I've even read is the UK Adult HBP cover. The book is called "Advanced Potion Making". Not exactly irrefutable proof. Anyway, all of your evidence is fascinating. I can't wait to read the thread that was linked on page one.

My post is not nearly as linear as I wanted it to be, but oh well. I'm going to get to reading and hopefully post some more...Hi there, Morganda, and :welcome: !! No need to feel like an intruder, we all love new input for Remus...
I've also read the thought that Snape might be the HBP, because of the adult UK book cover. My personal hope is that he's not, but rather, Harry has passes his Potions OWL, and will be continueing his education so that he may fulfill his dreams to become an Auror. That said, I wouldn't be too dissappointed if a new character is the Prince rather than Remus Lupin or even Snape :shrug: , because I love JKRs books. How can she think that HP fans aren't gonna like what she writes? There were/are still people upset about the loss of Sirius, but as far as I can tell, most of them plan to be in line July 16th!
Poor Remus, always living slightly apart from everyone, to protect them--and himself. I really like how everyone in the Order seemed to except him, even though he's a werewolf. So much so, that Molly had no fear of him--in contrast to her reaction to the poor man at St. Mungo's who had been bitten by a werewolf. He and Harry are my favorite characters, but I'm just a softy & a nurturer :p .

Flee From Death
April 7th, 2005, 3:33 pm
It's so nice to have the Lyceum back! Thank you Rotsie!

I see James, Sirius and Remus as having the same intelligence; however I see the way Remus thinks as being different to the way J&S think. I see J&S as people who loved nothing more than complex theories and plans because the complexity would make it challenging and difficult and therefore exciting and interesting. McGonnagall tells us at the start of PS that Transfiguration is some of the "Most complex and dangerous" (sorry, I don't have my books so the quote isn't exact) magic that is taught at Hogwarts, and we know that was James' speciality.

Remus, on the other hand, I see as someone able to take a complex problem and find the easiest and simplest solution. I think this shows in his teaching style. At first everyone's afraid when he tells them about the boggart in the wardrobe, but Remus remains calm and tells them that the spell they need to use is simple and teaches them the incantation. He then moves on to teaching them how to control their thoughts and force the boggart to become something they're not frightened of. By breaking the problem down he makes it simpler, and in fact he's so successful that Neville succeeds first time with the Riddikulus charm. I see Remus as a calm, cool and rational thinker who tries to find not the most exciting or complex solution, but the best solution.

To put this a different way I'm going to make a comparison to the Space Race. One problem faced during the Space Race is that a normal pen can't write in space since gravity is required to force the ink to the nib. The Americans spent millions of dollars developing a pen that could write in space. It was a very impressive act of engineering and there's no doubt that the people who came up with the design were very clever indeed. The kind of solution J&S might have come up with.

The Russians used pencils. Nowhere near as impressive technically, neither flashy nor flambouyant, yet so much simpler and just as effective. What I think of as a Remus solution.

So whilst I see the 3 as being on a par academically I see J&S as being more linear thinkers and Remus as a lateral thinker.


As to Remus being the HBP, well... I like the theory but I'm afraid to get my hopes up because I don't want to be disappointed come July 16th. Before OotP came out I was absolutely convinced that Voldemort would not appear in the final battle (I can't remember why) and was then really annoyed when he did because it contradicted my theory. So I'm trying not to tie myself down.

I definitely see Remus becoming closer to Harry in the next book though, HBP or not. Remus, of everyone in Potterverse, is I believe the one best at getting Harry to come out of his shell and talk about his feelings. He doesn't pressure him or intimidate him; it happens quite naturally and Harry feels comfortable with it.

This is one reason I think it would be so great if Harry ended up spending a lot of time in the summer with Remus -- in fact it would be even more like Harry's wish of being taken away that is mentioned in PS. Remus is the one who helped Harry learn to control his emotions so effectively in PoA and that's exactly what Harry needs to be able to do now the war has started and he needs to learn how to defeat Voldemort. Snape is not effective at doing this -- when he yells at Harry about sneaking into Hogsmeade in PoA Harry only feels anger, it's Remus who makes him feel remorse -- that is why he couldn't teach him occlumency. However we already know that Remus is good at teaching Harry how to control his emotions and good at teaching him complex magic. So who better to help him prepare for his battle with Voldemort? I would absolutely love to see him tutor Harry over the summer.


Sorry this is so long -- I'll post the reast of my thoughts later to stop this from being a completely unmerciful post.

Desraelda
April 7th, 2005, 4:39 pm
Let me start by saying, "WOW!" I'm so impressed with how articulate you guys are. I mean, you write complete sentences with punctuation and everything! I believe this might be the first thread I've found that consistently has people posting paragraphs. THANK YOU! I'm on the same page as finshae: I've always loved Lupin, but never really spent much time thinking about him. But now that I've read the bulk of this thread, I'm fascinated. So many unanswered questions! I also feel like a bit of an intruder, but I'll be rude and stay because it's refreshing to read posts from intelligent people...
Funny you should say that. When I came on board this morning, I was thinking how I couldn't wait to discuss Remus with such an intelligent and thoughtful group. I guess we're all learning something from our favorite character (intelligence, compassion, etc.) and not just about our favorite character.

Hmm... I think this is a point where we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I just see Lupin as an 'ordinary man' with an extraordinary human spirit as a survivor. Also I have a natural cynicsm towards Christ/messianic figures in general (not even as a religious thing either) so I just don't think I can see Lupin as one. I mean it's not even something I could debate or argue I just... don't. I mean I'm always open to new theories and I know that there's lots that could happen, it's just how I see him.
Isn't that exactly what a Christ/messianic figure is, once religion or divinity is removed? Christ was an ordinary man doing an extraordinary thing in the human sense. I think Lupin has that potential. He is not ordinary in the sense that he is a werewolf, but he is dual-natured because of that.

Medmera
April 7th, 2005, 4:53 pm
And concerning that silver hand of Peter's, no, we most certainly do not think he's going to poke Lupin with it. If one considers the fact that Wormtail is a betrayer and then compares this to the events and people surrounding Christ's death, it likely won't take very long to come to the conclusion that Judas :rotfl: and his thirty pieces of silver are being represented here.

Anyway, that's a very brief explanation of our view on this and feel free to think we are lunatics. ;)

:rotfl: I laughed out loud because I had never heard what the line "there will be no death by poking" was supposed to refer to. I see your point but the silver hand is magical. Magical, taste it. We don't know what it can do except give Pettigrew hell at commercial airport metal detectors. Have you seen Terminator 2? The magical silver hand could mean death by stabbing, slicing, cutting, or penetration of nosdrils.

The silver cup proves little. Im not very familiar with the lore surrounding werewolves but Ive heard stories where you have to shoot the wolf with a silver bullet, normal bullets bounce off so to speak. Getting shot is dangerous, but drinking from a cup is not. Maybe there are stories where werewolves die from touching silver and all you have to do to frighten a werewolf is to sneak up and whisper "hi. silver." in its ear, but I haven't read them.

Remsy Luck
April 7th, 2005, 6:01 pm
Just a quick post, just to say


We think that the reason JKR talks about it being a profound thing that wizards have to obey they laws of nature just like Muggles, is because there will be a circumstance when someone who is far more than just an ordinary wizard will break the laws of nature and return from the dead. I'll also add that we think Fawkes will be part of this process, as we believe Fawkes to be a representation of the Holy Spirit. For those who are familiar with other aspects of our theory, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out that we think Godric Gryffindor is symbolic of God the Father and that all three members of the Trinity are being portrayed.

And concerning that silver hand of Peter's, no, we most certainly do not think he's going to poke Lupin with it. If one considers the fact that Wormtail is a betrayer and then compares this to the events and people surrounding Christ's death, it likely won't take very long to come to the conclusion that Judas and his thirty pieces of silver are being represented here.



I'm in awe, once again.
When you first mentioned the Christ parallel I wasn't too sure about it, so I didn't really comment.
But now it just seems to makes sense, everything seems to fit!
Oh my... I must not get my hopes up, I must NOT get my hopes up...
But even if it turns out to be wrong, you two are plain brilliant.
I racked my brain for a possible explanation of "Why a silver hand?" that didn't involve the usual werewolf thing, and never found none. That's why I'm excited about this bit of your theory even more.
So once agin I find myself bowing to your brilliance.

This rebirth... is it that part you referred iin an old thread, about believing that in the climax of book 6 we Lupinites will owl in pain and worry for our favorite werewolf?

goldennib
April 7th, 2005, 8:02 pm
I think your parallel to the Christ story is a very good one. The silver hand of Peter and the silver pieces given to Judas is much better than Peter poking Lupin to death. But I think that Harry is the Christ figure. Peter in this case is still Judas and was given his silver becasue he already played the Judas role (twice) first with James and Lily and then he was instrumental in bringing Harry to VM so that VM could be reborn. And VM already said the silver hand was in payment for Peter's loyalty and sacrifice in the process.

WoodenCoyote
April 7th, 2005, 8:04 pm
Somebody made a fantastic connection a few threads back about Remus rescuing Harry from Privet Drive.
In the Philosophers Stone Harry says something about wishing somebody would just take him away from here, and in PoA Remus turns up and says "hello Harry, we've come to take you away." I'm sorry I don't have my book with me right now but it was a really good connection.
It was OotP, of course, and do you mean my wonderful motorbike dream?

I was thinking, Remus, Moody and Arthur made a point at the end of OotP of tellin Harry to owl them every three days to let them know he was alright or they'd be there in a flash to rescue him. If Harry does find himself with Remus in HBP, that could be how it comes about.

hobbitseeker
April 7th, 2005, 8:44 pm
:rotfl: I laughed out loud because I had never heard what the line "there will be no death by poking" was supposed to refer to. I see your point but the silver hand is magical. Magical, taste it. We don't know what it can do except give Pettigrew hell at commercial airport metal detectors. Have you seen Terminator 2? The magical silver hand could mean death by stabbing, slicing, cutting, or penetration of nosdrils.

The silver cup proves little. Im not very familiar with the lore surrounding werewolves but Ive heard stories where you have to shoot the wolf with a silver bullet, normal bullets bounce off so to speak. Getting shot is dangerous, but drinking from a cup is not. Maybe there are stories where werewolves die from touching silver and all you have to do to frighten a werewolf is to sneak up and whisper "hi. silver." in its ear, but I haven't read them.

Another thing we don't know about Peter's silver hand is whether is it actually SILVER. It is described as "silvery," which could mean it is made of something else. Whatever it is made out of, it is an exceptionally strong metal because Peter was able to crush things with it. The real metal silver is one of the most malleable of all metals, easily dented, scratched, formed, etc. It would make more sense if Peter's silvery hand was made of something like Titanium, which is also silvery in color, and much much stronger.

Dollmage
April 7th, 2005, 10:48 pm
I was thinking, Remus, Moody and Arthur made a point at the end of OotP of tellin Harry to owl them every three days to let them know he was alright or they'd be there in a flash to rescue him. If Harry does find himself with Remus in HBP, that could be how it comes about.

I completely forgot about them telling him to send him an owl every three days.

Ok, everyone is talking about parallels inwhich include the Bible, and please, please forgive me, but I have never read the Bible or gone to church on a regular basis, so I have gotten really confused. I think I may have skipped a key post or soemthing but I was wondering if anyone could tell me which post I need to read to get the general idea of this. And perhaps which book of the Bible you're referring to incase I want to go and read that too.

Please and thank you.

gottaloveLupin
April 7th, 2005, 11:16 pm
I am afraid I cannot help you as I haven't read the Bible either.

But if you get confused by this, wait untill everybody starts to talk about the legends of king Arthur and about astronomy and numerology! Fascinating subjects,but very confusing!

First time I read Elf's post I thought that she was wrong. Harry Potter reaches people of different ages at different levels, but is still a book for children. And children will not understand a too complex religious theory.

They can understand only the main plot the fight between good and evil, the adventures etc. For this reason I don't think that the message of the story will be extremely complex. It will probably be something extremely simple so that even the small children could understand. But something that will also have other conotations, which may be seen only by grown-ups.

So the idea of the savior, Christ resurection etc. seemed too much.

But once Elf posted that quote where Jo herself said that by speaking about religion she may give away what will happen in the books, I realized that Elf may be into something!

I am not sure if this something will be so complex, like using also the theme of resurection. But it must be something religious. What? I don't know!

aCiDxXxdRoP
April 7th, 2005, 11:39 pm
Thank you very much kingwidgit! I could give you a million dollars right now. So, Remus is indeed the only person to state the fact that James and Sirius were the brightest. This reminds me a lot of the scene at the end of PoA (book) where Harry says something along the lines of him being "the best teacher they've ever had," and Remus simply shook his head and said nothing. He feels so uncomfortable receiving any sort of compliment or taking credit, and that gives me a lot of insight into his selfless character. Now, I'm seriously confused about all of this Bible talk (seeing as how I've never even touched one), but I do feel as though Lupin will somehow give his life to save Harry. :upset:

Elf
April 8th, 2005, 12:07 am
original post by hobbitseeker
Another thing we don't know about Peter's silver hand is whether is it actually SILVER. It is described as "silvery," which could mean it is made of something else. Whatever it is made out of, it is an exceptionally strong metal because Peter was able to crush things with it. The real metal silver is one of the most malleable of all metals, easily dented, scratched, formed, etc. It would make more sense if Peter's silvery hand was made of something like Titanium, which is also silvery in color, and much much stronger.
Another reason why we tend to think the silver hand is symbolic in relation to Lupin. I'm sure Peter will use that horrible hand for something because JKR did give us a look at how strong it us, but for what I am not sure.

original post by Dollmage
Ok, everyone is talking about parallels inwhich include the Bible, and please, please forgive me, but I have never read the Bible or gone to church on a regular basis, so I have gotten really confused. I think I may have skipped a key post or soemthing but I was wondering if anyone could tell me which post I need to read to get the general idea of this. And perhaps which book of the Bible you're referring to incase I want to go and read that too.
That's okay Dollmage! I was entirely lost during the astronomy conversation. Science was never a good subject for me. If you're looking for the original post it's number #33.

original post by gottaloveLupin
First time I read Elf's post I thought that she was wrong. Harry Potter reaches people of different ages at different levels, but is still a book for children. And children will not understand a too complex religious theory.

They can understand only the main plot the fight between good and evil, the adventures etc. For this reason I don't think that the message of the story will be extremely complex. It will probably be something extremely simple so that even the small children could understand. But something that will also have other conotations, which may be seen only by grown-ups.

So the idea of the savior, Christ resurection etc. seemed too much.

But once Elf posted that quote where Jo herself said that by speaking about religion she may give away what will happen in the books, I realized that Elf may be into something!

I am not sure if this something will be so complex, like using also the theme of resurection. But it must be something religious. What? I don't know!
This is an interesting observation and if you notice, JKR basically addresses it in her quote about reading the Chronicles of Narnia as a child, but not comprehending the Christian symbolism until she reread the series as an adult. C.S. Lewis wrote the Narnia books for children, but as with much good literature there are layers, through which varying amounts of information will be gleaned depending upon the level of understanding of the reader. I can remember having an experience very much like JKR concerning that series. At the time my teacher read the Narnia books to us in grade three, I had no clue about the underlying symbolism, but the stories were gripping and fascinating. Later on I did come to realize the symbolism that C.S. Lewis had incorporated into his stories, much as Jo said in her quote.

Part of the reason the HP books appeal to such a vast age range is because JKR has written them to be very multi-layered books. That's why there is so much for us to discuss in these forums. So if she is incorporating this kind of symbolism into her books it doesn't mean that the story can't be an incredible read for someone not familiar with such things. It just means there are other layers that can be dug into with extra things to learn. This is the same regardless of the nature of the symbolism.

Hopefully what I mean here makes sense. In a nutshell, some people may realize that Lupin is comparable to Aslan and Christ (assuming we are correct in our theory) and for others he may just come across as self-sacrificing and heroic until a greater understanding of the symbolism is gained.

Dollmage
April 8th, 2005, 1:04 am
Ah hah...its much more clear now that I read that post. I think its interesting that I understand what you're saying. I have to revise my last post to say I hadn't read all of the Bible because last year our English teacher had us read some of it for the literary value and what not so I do remember some of it and I can easily think about the two stories...Thank you Elf, for telling me which post it was.


Ok but now I am going to sound like a complete dunderhead but (I think I know, I really do-but I don't want to sound really dumb) the Chronicles of Narnia...those are the books...which include _______________(someone please fill in the blank...

Elf
April 8th, 2005, 1:13 am
original post by Dollmage
Ok but now I am going to sound like a complete dunderhead but (I think I know, I really do-but I don't want to sound really dumb) the Chronicles of Narnia...those are the books...which include _______________(someone please fill in the blank...
The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is the best known from the series and the one which contains the scenario with Aslan, the God figure, which is what we are making our comparison to Lupin with.

Hollis
April 8th, 2005, 1:21 am
The Chronicles of Narnia is the set of seven books written by C.W. Lewis around the same time as Tokein was writing his Lord of the Rings books. The books start with The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe and continue on about Prince Casper, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, The Silver Chair, The Magician's Nephew (which is a prequel) and The Last Battle.

There is a promising movie version of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe to be release Christmas 2005 with special effects by Weta Workshop (which did the marvelous creatures and miniatures for LotR).

The character of the lion, Aslan, is a Jesus figure, with a resurrection scene and filled with kindness and wisdom. It's not exactly Christian dogma, but more based on the same Judeo Christian mythology. For more on that topic please see the works of Joseph Campbell.

To bring this topic back to Remus Lupin and Harry Potter books in general there are a lot of mythological creatures in the Narnia books, fawns, centaurs, flying horses and a wonderful freshness of point of view from the children that is similar to JKR's style. However one can see she uses more the mischeif and tendency of getting in big trouble from E. Nesbitt (whom JKR has mentioned as an influence in interviews).

EDIT: you beat me to it Elf.

I agree that there are a lot of parallels between Aslan and Remus: the kindness, the watchful rescuer (Dept. of Mysteries scene), the sorrow and deep mysteries in his past. However, he's also got the spark and humor of Mr. Tumnus, the fawn.

Dollmage
April 8th, 2005, 1:23 am
I thought so... We read them once when I was little. It was a family thing, every night before bed we would all take turns reading from them. I don't remember much so I will probably go dig them out of my brother's closet and read them.

RemusLupinFan
April 8th, 2005, 2:57 am
The silver hand of Peter and the silver pieces given to Judas is much better than Peter poking Lupin to death.I definitely agree- it makes a lot of sense that Peterís hand would a physical representation of his betrayal to the Marauders rather than it foreshadowing the doom of Lupin. In previous versions of the Lyceum, it was suggested that Peterís hand represents a brand that Peter bears for essentially siding with "the devil" (Voldemort; though Iím just calling him the devil as an analogy) and selling his friends to Voldemort. I think this fits in well with the idea of the parallel between the hand and Judas.

As far as Peterís ability to transform is concerned, his silver hand could possibly get in the way, since it's technically not biologically part of his body. And itís also possible that it could be a trick gift from Voldemort- ie it might have some hidden curse built into it that only Voldemort knows about.

So in the end, Peter's hand will likely serve as a reminder to Peter that Voldemort completely owns him, and that he may be expected more and more to do Voldemort's dirty work- to be Voldemort's hands, so to speak. The way I see it, Peter is even more bound to Voldemort than before he received his new hand, a notion that would no doubt make things very interesting when it comes time for Peter to fulfill his life debt to Harry. Therefore, I am quite skeptical that the silver hand will play any part in killing or harming Remus.

Dollmage
April 8th, 2005, 4:22 am
I had a thought earlier, that I just remembered having. As I thought about it again-it kinda reminded me of Remus. I was on a field trip to the art museum with my creative writing class(paired with english 3) and I don't have any friends in there at all so I always wonder off alone(we go on quite a few field trips). Anyway-I'm a favorite of Asian art so I went to that section first since it had been closed the last time I was there. I was really surprised that there was no one there.

To get to my point. I was completely isolated, as usual. I stood there in complete silence and I was like, wow...I don't like this feeling of absolute loneliness. So I ended up leaving that section and finding a place with more people. What my point is, How often was Remus left alone or in complete isolation? That type of secludedness made me want to go crazy with only five minutes of it and I'm not a social person, nor do I think Remus is an overly social person. Its just, I had the option to go and find people. Even if Remus did want to go and find people, they wouldn't share the same feelings.
I remember a few threads back having conversations about Remus moments, and I think this qualifies.


I am also glad that it seems no one is truly stuck on the idea that the 'silver' hand is going to bring the death of Remus. I was pretty sure the book only said that it was 'silvery' or if it did say silver-it was from Harry's point of view so he didn't know the chemical make-up of whatever metal it was. I think I am going to go look up some of the imformation about werewolves and silver-discover if it has to enter the blood stream, be a bullet, or whatever and etc.

Desraelda
April 8th, 2005, 4:34 am
I am also glad that it seems no one is truly stuck on the idea that the 'silver' hand is going to bring the death of Remus. I was pretty sure the book only said that it was 'silvery' or if it did say silver-it was from Harry's point of view so he didn't know the chemical make-up of whatever metal it was. I think I am going to go look up some of the imformation about werewolves and silver-discover if it has to enter the blood stream, be a bullet, or whatever and etc.
In the research I did on werewolves, there appeared to be many means of death, including bludgeoning, hanging, burning, but in only one instance that I read was a silver bullet used.

kingwidgit
April 8th, 2005, 6:42 am
I definitely agree- it makes a lot of sense that Peterís hand would a physical representation of his betrayal to the Marauders rather than it foreshadowing the doom of Lupin. In previous versions of the Lyceum, it was suggested that Peterís hand represents a brand that Peter bears for essentially siding with "the devil" (Voldemort; though Iím just calling him the devil as an analogy) and selling his friends to Voldemort. I think this fits in well with the idea of the parallel between the hand and Judas.

As far as Peterís ability to transform is concerned, his silver hand could possibly get in the way, since it's technically not biologically part of his body. And itís also possible that it could be a trick gift from Voldemort- ie it might have some hidden curse built into it that only Voldemort knows about.

So in the end, Peter's hand will likely serve as a reminder to Peter that Voldemort completely owns him, and that he may be expected more and more to do Voldemort's dirty work- to be Voldemort's hands, so to speak. The way I see it, Peter is even more bound to Voldemort than before he received his new hand, a notion that would no doubt make things very interesting when it comes time for Peter to fulfill his life debt to Harry. Therefore, I am quite skeptical that the silver hand will play any part in killing or harming Remus.There is also the scriptural aspect of Peter and his right hand. In Judaism, a person must consciously choose to use the right hand...for instance, you eat with the right hand, you lead with the right foot, you put your right leg in your trousers first, you put your right sock/shoe on first, you get up on the right side of the bed (this means literally, not a mind set), you read from right to left (not left to right). It was/is a part of conscious acceptance...you must choose the right way/path. Using the right hand shows a conscious effort on the part of the person. This is why one of the marks of the beast spoken of in Revelation is receiving a mark on the right hand. Revelations 13:16, He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead. Right hand = free choice. Forehead = doesn't believe/accept freely, but decides to follow anyway (this is how a person is forced to accept---my personal belief, though not necessarily anyone else's). Pettigrew freely chose to follow the Dark Lord, he didn't have to return to him (none of the other DEs did), and by freely giving his right hand, he demonstrated his loyalty and acceptance, & he was given a replacement hand from LV. That type of secludedness made me want to go crazy with only five minutes of it and I'm not a social person, nor do I think Remus is an overly social person. Its just, I had the option to go and find people. Even if Remus did want to go and find people, they wouldn't share the same feelings.
I remember a few threads back having conversations about Remus moments, and I think this qualifies.How Remus must have felt to be a member of the Marauder's, and be accepted by DD into Hogwarts, and be a trusted member of the Order--when most wizards shun him. The moment when he reached out to Harry, who had been the only 3rd year left out of Hogsmeade, almost made me cry. How he made Harry think, when asking if anyone really deserved a dementors kiss...he shared his compassion and humanity, and when the time came, when he and Sirius were about to murder Pettigrew--Harry reached out to him, reminding Remus of his own humanity...Sirius & Remus spared Pettigrew because Harry asked it of them. Sirius, I think, would have been ok with the murder of Pettigrew. I don't think Remus would have been, though. He is so careful not to expose others to his condition, to control his lycanthropy so as not to harm/kill another person. This tells me he really wouldn't have dealt well with the murder of Pettigrew. I'm not saying Remus can't or won't kill. In defense of Harry & the others, there will be casualties, that's inevitable. But to murder for revenge, no, that's just not Remus. In the research I did on werewolves, there appeared to be many means of death, including bludgeoning, hanging, burning, but in only one instance that I read was a silver bullet used.This is correct. When you think silver bullet, stop and ponder...bullets are a relatively new invention. The invention of the firelock or flint-lock, was about mid 1500's--and they used lead musket balls---for hundreds of years. Bullets were invented in the 18th century and were comprised of lead. Bullets today are comprised of lead/brass/iron--rarely silver.Musket, Mousquet
1 Originally, a smoothbore small arm invented about 1540, much heavier and more powerful than the harquebus. The latter term became in time the designation for a gun of fine workmanship, as distinguished from a common infantry arm to which the term mousquet was applied. The mousquet thus tended to be a matchlock, a less expensive ignition system than the wheel lock, which was associated with the harquebus. On the abandonment of the matchlock system towards the end of the 17th century the term mousquet was discontinued in favour of fusil or flintlock.
2 A military smoothbore with a long barrel and a fore end extending to the muzzle, popular during the transition period from single shot to magazine rifles. The term rifled musket was in time applied to single shot military rifles, presumably to distinguish them from repeating rifles.There are many ways to kill werewolves in folklore--however, the silver bullet is a movie invention, and not true to traditional folklore.

urquhartfay
April 8th, 2005, 1:38 pm
as usual, i disappear for a day or two, then backread several pages, and then come up with these monster posts...please forgive me! here goes:

first of all, :welcome: to everyone who is new!
nephel: As I said before, Lupin was the only one Sirius trusted enough to give a key. There is no detail of Sirius ever consorting with Dumbeldore prior to PoA, so I don't think Sirius could have ever grown to trust Dumbledore. morganda: By the same token, it seems that the Marauders are the only adults Lupin has been close to. Surely he would assume that he would never find a group of people to sacrifice so much to hang out with him. I'm thinking he might have purposely distanced himself from people in general (esp Harry) to keep THEM safe. He has no clue what he does when's changed and he no longer has Padfoot and Prongs (screw Wormtail-bleh) to keep his head straight. So maybe he's withdrawn from Harry for that reason-to protect Harry. It's similar to the reason Dumbledore tried not to care too much about Harry...he knows that adding that layer of relationship is dangerous for so many reasons.
both of you :welcome: remus and sirius were both in the order of the phoenix during the first war, as shown by moody's picture. so sirius would have had extensive dealings with dd, and remus with other adults. the order must have been informed of his condition, because with such intense working-together on such a secret level, they couldn't possibly keep something like that from each other. the other oder members would have to be able to cover for remus when he was "incapacitated."
mugglelvr: Not to toot Harry's horn or anything, but he actually saved Sirius's life three times that night.
this may be another reason harry and sirius are so close so quickly. being involved in an adventure like that, and saving someone's life, brings the people involved emotionally close together - harry's attatchment to sirius and the bond between them in general was strengthened by the fact that harry saved his life so many times.

remus vs. dumbledore: mommcgonagall ( :welcome: ) mentioned some of this, but i feel the need to elaborate...

dumbledore is the guy who knows everything. remus is the guy who teaches harry everything. dumbledore talks, remus teaches. dumbledore loves from afar, remus loves intimately. dumbledore doesn't really "get his hand dirty," remus does.

i mean honestly, in ootp, dd avoids harry's glance because he doesn't want voldy to see their closeness, use it as a weapon, find out information from dumbledore, etc. but it was also dangerous - slightly less so, but still dangerous - for voldy to see that harry was close to other powerful order members - lupin, sirius, moody, etc. they also knew the order plans and lots of important things and could also be used as sirius was eventually used. but did any of them get the clever idea of abandoning harry emotionally for a whole year to protect themselves and him and the order? no. only someone as naturally aloof as dumbledore could consider doing that without even warning harry of why. i'm not ranting at dumbledore here, i'm just saying he is, perhaps by nature, not someone for harry to be truly close to or confide in. he's not the type. i believe he does love harry, but not in the way remus does. can you imagine dumbledore taking a weeping molly weasley gently in his arms and soothing her? no, that's got remus written all over it. harry needs a secret password to get into dumbledore's office and enteres with trepidation. remus sees harry wandering the corridors through his already open door and invites him inside for a cup of tea and conversation. dumbledore's love is like "adopting" a starving child in africa, sending him money to survive and go to a good school and have a real chance in this life, and sending an occasional letter - which is a very very wonderful thing to do! but remus' love is like flying to africa, cooking for the child, putting salve on his wounds with your own hands, teaching him yourself, and holding him in your arms when he is hurting, and tucking him into bed with a story every night. its meeting his emotional needs, not just his physical and intellectual needs. harry needed dumbedore's love that year more than anything and didn't get it.

ok, enough tirade. :)
remuslupinfan: You know, itís funny you should say this, because in the ĎDeconstructing the Maraudersí thread, some people seemed to think that Lupin and Sirius were glossing over the whole event by reminiscing, and that they werenít giving Harry the answers he was looking for. Iím interested to hear what you guys think about this, because Iím also of the opinion that Lupinís and Siriusís nostalgia showed that both were remembering the good times they shared with a good friend, even if their actions werenít exactly praiseworthy.i think it's interesting because it contrasts 3 different perspectives:
1) the perspective of youth, i.e. harry. harry can't put actions like this into perspective because he hasn't learned to understand human nature or to observe people his age as "young" and "having more to learn" - he can't acknowledge that one can do stupid things as a youth and yet turn out alright. plus, teasing has much more meaning to a youth than to an adult, so he sees their actions more severely.
2) the adult perspective: remus and sirius look back knowing the context, the outcome, and the significance for their later lives and see that, though their actions were wrong, they did not outweigh the good, nor do they retain the significance to be dwelt upon. however:
3) the victim's perspective: depending on one's character, someone who was treated as snape was may or may not obtain the adult perspective. snape did not. he still holds a grudge. this is something remus, sirius, and dumbledore don't understand until too late, as dd confesses at the end. it is typical of adults to not take childhood experiences seriously enough, and typical of children to take their experiences too seriously. this is really a central theme in hp: if dd had grasped this, harry wouldn't have gotten into half the trouble he got into in the first 5 books.strangemagic: In away had Lupin not been bitten, the wizarding world would be VERY different because James, Sirius, and Peter would have never became animagi and thus changing the outcome of the war entirely. My idea of the change is a bad one because had the whole animagus thing never happened Sirius Black would never be a criminal on the loose, so Lupin would never have taught Harry the Patrounus Charm. Then in Harry's Fifth year Umbridge sends Dementors to Privite Drive. Had Harry never learned the Patrounus Charm the he would have recieved the Demetor's kiss, making him unable to destroy Voldemort, Destroying the world. The Butterfly Effect.goodness! i never thought it through that far. lets see: in the first war, james and lily got married and had harry and were defying voldy, which all could have happened without the animagus thing. so i guess voldy could still have been defeated (inasfar as he was) by baby harry in october 1981 without the animagi thing. however, peter never would have escaped, tricking the bystanders into thinking that sirius killed him. he would have been carted off the azkaban himself, and i doubt he would have ever been able to break out and bring voldy back from albania.
credo: But I understand your reservations. I admit that I was sort of surprised to hear JKR say that about the link between HP and the Bible as well. If nothing else, though, it gives us interesting possibilities for discussing Lupin's future, as Elf and Loup have some really great insights into what that could mean.well, to be strict, she said her belief in God, but not specifically the bible (though i do believe she's of christian leanings), and there is a lot of (for want of a better word) mythology within the history of christianity outside of the bible - the whole lives of the saints fills volumes, and of course there is church history, the good the bad and the ugly of it...
goldennib: When Sirius first escaped, I think Lupin may have held back from Harry, because Lupin intended to go after Sirius or prevent Sirius from attacking Harry, which in either case would have put Lupin in danger (because he would know how powerful Sirius was) so Lupin could not be sure he (Lupin) would survive such a battle.great point! being prepared to sacrifice himself in his attempt to stop sirius and simultaneously sacrifice his opportunitiy to get close to harry to save harry the pain of his loss sounds like typical remus. how ironic, then, that it was sirius whom harry lost, where there was no holding back of love. but by now remus must see (at least in dd's poor example) that it is better for harry to be loved and suffer a loss than be emotionally abandoned.
hobbitseeker: Although you are right in your statement that we do not know for sure whether Remus enjoys DADA, it seems to me that anyone who could produce a Patronus would have a definite grasp of DADA knowledge, as the Patronus charm is advanced DADA from what we've been told. i would guess remus liked dada and was good at it partly because of being a werewolf - kind of like an american living in germany taking an american studies class. remus obviously enjoys teaching in general and he seems to enjoy teaching dada.

i understand why dd hired remus in poa - having been sirius' friend, he knows how he thinks and would be good protection for harry. but i still wonder why dd didn't hire him for the post earlier. quirrell had qualifications, but lockhart was a joke, and he knew it. he could have easily hired remus in book 2 (ahem, hbp theory) but he didn't. why? possibilities:
a) wolfsbane hadn't been invented yet (must have been invented during book 2 then)
b) remus was doing something very important outside hogwarts - something that dd held even more important than giving his students a good education in dada.
considering dd always suspected voldy would return, he must know how important this subject is, and how important it is for his students to have a good dada teacher. since remus is the best dada teacher of all, he must have had a good reason for not hiring him earlier.
dollmage: Ok, everyone is talking about parallels inwhich include the Bible, and please, please forgive me, but I have never read the Bible or gone to church on a regular basis, so I have gotten really confused. I think I may have skipped a key post or soemthing but I was wondering if anyone could tell me which post I need to read to get the general idea of this. And perhaps which book of the Bible you're referring to incase I want to go and read that too.though the references are drawn from all over the bible, the focus is on the story of Jesus, which is recounted from four different perspectives in the four gospels. if you want a quick overview, try the gospel of mark, the second book in the new testament. it's the shortest, the most "action packed," and is supposedly from the apostle peter's perspective (peter was one of the closest people to Jesus and one of his first followers).
remuslupinfan: In previous versions of the Lyceum, it was suggested that Peterís hand represents a brand that Peter bears for essentially siding with "the devil" (Voldemort; though Iím just calling him the devil as an analogy) and selling his friends to Voldemort. I think this fits in well with the idea of the parallel between the hand and Judas.
it also reminds me of the mark of cain - cain having murdered his own brother abel out of jealousy was to wear a mark for all eternity showing his treachery. peter can surely be said to have betrayed as much as a brother. kingwidgit's point is also very good.

(edit: i left the end of my post behind! here it is...)
goldennib: I have also thought that the savior story was being played out in the books, but I looked at Harry as the saviour figure because his petronus is a stag, The Horned God of Celtic pagan belief.
oooh, please elaborate on this! i'm very interested in celtic mythology...if it's too off topic, i'd love an owl on the topic.

i'm still convinced that the chapter "spinners end" is about harry going to live with remus for the rest of the summer. and i just had a delicious thought: remus drives up to privet drive on sirius' moterbike, then strides up to the front door, leather clad, takes off his sunglasses and brushes his greying hair out of his eyes as he rings the bell. with the utmost politeness he greets the dursleys, sits down with them in the kitchen and explains to them the situation, then requests to take harry home with him for the summer to better protect both parties. the dursleys, of course, aquiesce immediately, and harry, listening at the door, punches the air triumphantly as a smiling remus emerges to lead him out the door....and i'm picturing remus teaching harry to ride the motorcycle, turns out to have motorcycles as his hobby, has been fixing the muffler so it will be quieter....*sigh* :love:

Flee From Death
April 8th, 2005, 2:19 pm
Hello again! Just a few things to say. Firstly:

The Chronicles of Narnia is the set of seven books written by C.W. Lewis around the same time as Tokein was writing his Lord of the Rings books. The books start with The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe and continue on about Prince Casper, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, The Silver Chair, The Magician's Nephew (which is a prequel) and The Last Battle. Sorry, I'm being pedantic again, but just to correct a few things it was C. S. Lewis, Tolkien and Prince Caspian. The 7th Narnia book is The Horse and His Boy.

Back to our regularly scheduled viewing...

remuslupinfan: In previous versions of the Lyceum, it was suggested that Peterís hand represents a brand that Peter bears for essentially siding with "the devil" (Voldemort; though Iím just calling him the devil as an analogy) and selling his friends to Voldemort. I think this fits in well with the idea of the parallel between the hand and Judas.
it also reminds me of the mark of cain - cain having murdered his own brother abel out of jealousy was to wear a mark for all eternity showing his treachery. peter can surely be said to have betrayed as much as a brother. kingwidgit's point is also very good.
I first thought of the mark of Cain as well. I really like this biblical analogy of being marked by evil, and therefore also a slave to it. If you get into bed with the devil... I won't finish that but you get the point.

i understand why dd hired remus in poa - having been sirius' friend, he knows how he thinks and would be good protection for harry. but i still wonder why dd didn't hire him for the post earlier. quirrell had qualifications, but lockhart was a joke, and he knew it. he could have easily hired remus in book 2 (ahem, hbp theory) but he didn't. why? possibilities:
a) wolfsbane hadn't been invented yet (must have been invented during book 2 then)
b) remus was doing something very important outside hogwarts - something that dd held even more important than giving his students a good education in dada.
considering dd always suspected voldy would return, he must know how important this subject is, and how important it is for his students to have a good dada teacher. since remus is the best dada teacher of all, he must have had a good reason for not hiring him earlier.
I don't know why but I never actually stopped to ask myself why Dumbles hadn't hired Remus in CoS. However I did just have a thought: at the end of CoS Dumbles asks how Voldemort managed to open the CoS when his best sources told him that Voldemort is in the forests of Albania (sorry I don't have my books so this is from memory). Also when down in the CoS DiaryTom makes mention of werewolf cubs in the Forbidden Forest. I know this is... you know, more tenuous than the silver hand of death theory, but should we be asking ourselves if Remus was spying for Dumbledore in Albania, or attempting to track Voldemort? It's not impossible, and transforming into a werewolf in an Albaian forest would be safe enough, probably. Also Quirell, a (former) Hogwarts DADA teacher managed to run into Voldemort when travelling, so it's maybe not too out-there to assume that Remus might do some travelling to study dark creatures or track Voldemort.

Probably nonsense, but just thought I'd throw that out there. Feel free to pick the theory apart.

RemusLupinFan
April 8th, 2005, 4:50 pm
Pettigrew freely chose to follow the Dark Lord, he didn't have to return to him (none of the other DEs did), and by freely giving his right hand, he demonstrated his loyalty and acceptance, & he was given a replacement hand from LV. Great information from the Bible. :tu: Though I'm Catholic, I haven't read the Bible in a while, so I'm glad you pointed these things out. This is certainly true; Peter has shown that he has chosen his path, so to speak: the path of evil by following Voldemort. Also as we were discussing in the Decon thread, Peter is very opportunistic. He takes advantage of people and of situations to benefit himself.

How he made Harry think, when asking if anyone really deserved a dementors kiss...he shared his compassion and humanity, and when the time came, when he and Sirius were about to murder Pettigrew--Harry reached out to him, reminding Remus of his own humanityI really like this analogy!

I'm not saying Remus can't or won't kill. In defense of Harry & the others, there will be casualties, that's inevitable. But to murder for revenge, no, that's just not Remus. Certainly Remus must have wanted to kill Peter to prevent any further deaths/harm by Peter's hand. Also, I agree that he wasn't really too keen on doing it, because he speaks reluctantly at one point. But I've thought a lot about Remus's motives for wanting to kill Peter, and I have to believe that revenge did actually factor into it a bit- it's only human after all. But I believe the difference between Remus's idea of revenge and Sirius's is that Remus wants to kill Peter out of a sense of justice. What I mean by this is that he feels Peter deserved to pay for all of the horrible things he did to Harry, to the Potters, to Sirius, to himself, and to all of those innocent people he killed. Sirius expresses the desire to kill Peter in order to commit the murder he was imprisoned for, which indicates that it's more of a personal vendetta (though I do believe that Sirius wanted justice to come to Peter as well). I hope that made sense. :)

dumbledore loves from afar, remus loves intimately. :tu: Great comparison. I loved your whole contrast between the way Remus loves Harry and the way Dumbledore does, and I quite agree. Although, I do want to add that Dumbledore also does find ways to love Harry a bit more intimately, though not to the degree that Remus does. I also want to point out that some of the differences in Dumbledore's and Remus's treatment toward Harry is due to the differing way that Harry views each of them. With Dumbledore, Harry views him as an eccentric but rather omniscient figure, whereas Remus is someone more "ordinary". Remus doesn't really have the god-like standing that Dumbledore seems to have. By "god-like", I mean that Harry is kind of in awe of Dumbledore, feeling that he can fix any situation and make things right again. Thus, by the nature of the way Harry sees Dumbledore, I believe this also makes him seem a bit more distant. On the other hand, Harry's view of Remus is more personal. He deals with Remus on a teacher-student basis, which is on a much more personal level than the way he deals with Dumbledore. Therefore, I think in addition to the way Remus and Dumbledore act toward Harry, Harry's view of them has an influence on the way their relationship with Harry appears to us.

i think it's interesting because it contrasts 3 different perspectives:
1) the perspective of youth, i.e. harry. harry can't put actions like this into perspective because he hasn't learned to understand human nature or to observe people his age as "young" and "having more to learn" - he can't acknowledge that one can do stupid things as a youth and yet turn out alright. plus, teasing has much more meaning to a youth than to an adult, so he sees their actions more severely.
2) the adult perspective: remus and sirius look back knowing the context, the outcome, and the significance for their later lives and see that, though their actions were wrong, they did not outweigh the good, nor do they retain the significance to be dwelt upon. however:
3) the victim's perspective: depending on one's character, someone who was treated as snape was may or may not obtain the adult perspective. snape did not. he still holds a grudge. this is something remus, sirius, and dumbledore don't understand until too late, as dd confesses at the end. it is typical of adults to not take childhood experiences seriously enough, and typical of children to take their experiences too seriously. this is really a central theme in hp: if dd had grasped this, harry wouldn't have gotten into half the trouble he got into in the first 5 books.Excellent points! I don't think I can add anything. :tu:

urquhartfay
April 8th, 2005, 5:02 pm
I don't know why but I never actually stopped to ask myself why Dumbles hadn't hired Remus in CoS. However I did just have a thought: at the end of CoS Dumbles asks how Voldemort managed to open the CoS when his best sources told him that Voldemort is in the forests of Albania (sorry I don't have my books so this is from memory). Also when down in the CoS DiaryTom makes mention of werewolf cubs in the Forbidden Forest. I know this is... you know, more tenuous than the silver hand of death theory, but should we be asking ourselves if Remus was spying for Dumbledore in Albania, or attempting to track Voldemort? It's not impossible, and transforming into a werewolf in an Albaian forest would be safe enough, probably. Also Quirell, a (former) Hogwarts DADA teacher managed to run into Voldemort when travelling, so it's maybe not too out-there to assume that Remus might do some travelling to study dark creatures or track Voldemort.

Probably nonsense, but just thought I'd throw that out there. Feel free to pick the theory apart.this is quite interesting, actually, and would fit time wise. because of the quirrel experience, dd discovered that voldy had been in the part of the world where quirrell had been travelling. i suspect dd had had order members keeping their eyes peeled for voldy for a long time, including remus. when this evidence of his whereabouts came up, there were fresh tracks to follow, and it's logical that he sent order members out hunting. now, moody has been in retirement, and dd respected that until remus' retirement gave him no choice. there are a few other order members still around, but of all of them, the one who seems to have the most authority is remus. so it makes sense that remus would lead the hunt for voldy after his flight from quirrell's corpse in book 1.

and yes, his experience as a werewolf qualifies him especially for dealing with the creatures in that region...albania is getting closer to transylvania, romania....

goldennib
April 8th, 2005, 6:21 pm
being prepared to sacrifice himself in his attempt to stop sirius and simultaneously sacrifice his opportunitiy to get close to harry to save harry the pain of his loss sounds like typical remus. how ironic, then, that it was sirius whom harry lost, where there was no holding back of love. but by now remus must see (at least in dd's poor example) that it is better for harry to be loved and suffer a loss than be emotionally abandoned.

I know I read earlier somewhere in this thread(?) a link to I believe elf and Loup_Garou's thinking on Lupin and King Arthur and now I can't find it. If it is here can someone please tell me where it's at so I can read it.

I too believe the HP series follows the King Arthur story line because it is a very universal legend/mythology. Every major civilization has the king as sacrifice story as part of its heritage.

I quoted the above passage because while Lupin is my favorite character, I think Harry is King Arthur (or Christ - talking about the story and not with any religious connotations, so please no one take offense.)

I think that Lupin correlatates with Perceval. He was King Arthur's staunchest supporter. He was of royal birth. He was one of the knights who searched for the holy grail. His main story line though is about how he is tempted by the wife of another man (the moon is The Goddess who tempts Lupin) and Perceval must resist his urges (the werewolf within Lupin.) And this is where the passage above comes in: Perceval has a dream in which he sees the spear that pierced Christ's side dripping blood in a procession in front of his sick Grandfather. Perceval never askds the meaning of this procession. He was taught not to ask questions, but to quietly accept fate. Later in life he discovers that if he had simply asked the meaning of the procession, he would have saved his grandfather's life sooner.

So many things in King Arthur remind me of Harry: the White Stag (Petronus) King Arthur had an invisibity cloak, the special sword handed down to him, Merlin (Dumbledore) King Arthur had a great hound that was his favorite that died in battle protecting him (Sirius.) The Knights of the Round table (DA) King Arthur's parents were a love match and they did not raise him and he was given over to Merlin and placed in fosterage.

Anyway, this thread is about Lupin and like I said, he's my favorite. Maybe JKR will do a book on his life story.

kingwidgit
April 8th, 2005, 6:30 pm
Certainly Remus must have wanted to kill Peter to prevent any further deaths/harm by Peter's hand. Also, I agree that he wasn't really too keen on doing it, because he speaks reluctantly at one point. But I've thought a lot about Remus's motives for wanting to kill Peter, and I have to believe that revenge did actually factor into it a bit- it's only human after all. But I believe the difference between Remus's idea of revenge and Sirius's is that Remus wants to kill Peter out of a sense of justice.I agree, and it makes perfect sense. That's why I said Harry reminded Remus of his own compassion.
What this really reminds me of, is a jury...11 vote for the death penalty---it's the justice for whatever heinous crime was committed...the one holdout (Harry) votes for life in prison, and talks the other 11 around to it as well...some of those 11 are secretly relieved---I think Remus was secretly relieved, he'd already lost so many friends. And after all, he accepted the sentence of life in Azkaban for Sirius' supposed crimes as justice--though he may have wished for something else.

Loup Garou
April 8th, 2005, 7:31 pm
I know I read earlier somewhere in this thread(?) a link to I believe elf and Loup_Garou's thinking on Lupin and King Arthur and now I can't find it. If it is here can someone please tell me where it's at so I can read it.

I too believe the HP series follows the King Arthur story line because it is a very universal legend/mythology. Every major civilization has the king as sacrifice story as part of its heritage.

I quoted the above passage because while Lupin is my favorite character, I think Harry is King Arthur (or Christ - talking about the story and not with any religious connotations, so please no one take offense.)

I think that Lupin correlatates with Perceval. He was King Arthur's staunchest supporter. He was of royal birth. He was one of the knights who searched for the holy grail. His main story line though is about how he is tempted by the wife of another man (the moon is The Goddess who tempts Lupin) and Perceval must resist his urges (the werewolf within Lupin.) And this is where the passage above comes in: Perceval has a dream in which he sees the spear that pierced Christ's side dripping blood in a procession in front of his sick Grandfather. Perceval never askds the meaning of this procession. He was taught not to ask questions, but to quietly accept fate. Later in life he discovers that if he had simply asked the meaning of the procession, he would have saved his grandfather's life sooner.

So many things in King Arthur remind me of Harry: the White Stag (Petronus) King Arthur had an invisibity cloak, the special sword handed down to him, Merlin (Dumbledore) King Arthur had a great hound that was his favorite that died in battle protecting him (Sirius.) The Knights of the Round table (DA) King Arthur's parents were a love match and they did not raise him and he was given over to Merlin and placed in fosterage.

Once again, here is the link:

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1476708&postcount=1288

I have a hunch you will be particularly interested in the analysis of the Fisher King legend, and how it could apply to Lupin, that Elf wrote back in October. (She conjectures Harry as Percival, by the way.)

As with everything else, we've taken these ideas and extrapolated them much further since then. In fact, we believe that some specific imagery from the basic story of the Fisher King potentially will come into play before the end of the series. More than that I probably shouldn't say, as it touches on a plot element that could prove a bit controversial, if we're correct.


Anyway, this thread is about Lupin and like I said, he's my favorite. Maybe JKR will do a book on his life story.

Unfortunately for those of us who would enjoy such a volume, JKR has said that by the end of the HP series, we will know everything we need to understand about the past. It's possible that what we'll discover could even render a prequel completely unnecessary.

Desraelda
April 8th, 2005, 8:07 pm
Certainly Remus must have wanted to kill Peter to prevent any further deaths/harm by Peter's hand. Also, I agree that he wasn't really too keen on doing it, because he speaks reluctantly at one point. But I've thought a lot about Remus's motives for wanting to kill Peter, and I have to believe that revenge did actually factor into it a bit- it's only human after all. But I believe the difference between Remus's idea of revenge and Sirius's is that Remus wants to kill Peter out of a sense of justice. What I mean by this is that he feels Peter deserved to pay for all of the horrible things he did to Harry, to the Potters, to Sirius, to himself, and to all of those innocent people he killed. Sirius expresses the desire to kill Peter in order to commit the murder he was imprisoned for, which indicates that it's more of a personal vendetta (though I do believe that Sirius wanted justice to come to Peter as well). I hope that made sense. :)
It has always bothered me that Remus wanted to kill Peter. His only reluctance was in doing it before Harry heard the whole story.

Sirius has had 12 years in Azkaban to work on his thirst for revenge, and he's always been the one to act first and ask questions later.

Remus, on the other hand, is the thoughtful one. I agree that he would have no compassion for Pettigrew. After all, compassion can only go so far and Pettigrew was responsible for the death of two of his friends, the unjust imprisonment of another, and himself being placed under suspicion as a spy.

But again, Remus is the one who thinks before he acts. Why would he kill the man that could prove Sirius and himself to be innocent? Without Pettigrew as a live witness, there was no proof. They could both have been convicted of Pettigrew's murder. The Wizengamot could have said that Pettigrew was in hiding as a rat because he was afraid of Sirius and Lupin.

I guess there's no answer that I can give other than everyone is entitled to act out of character in extraordinary circumstances.

hobbitseeker
April 8th, 2005, 8:54 pm
I guess there's no answer that I can give other than everyone is entitled to act out of character in extraordinary circumstances.


I think this is a good point. I have tried to put myself into Remus' shoes during that time and attempt to figure out how I would have reacted. First off, I think I would have been in a state of shock due to discovering that everything I thought I knew about Sirius and Peter was wrong. Then I am sure I would have felt a lot of anger toward Wormtail for not only betraying James and Lily, but for his horrible acts against Sirius. I am sure I wouldn't have been thinking very clearly at this point, and I would probably have thought "Harry et. al. are in danger, this traitor needs to be taken care of." But then Harry did the extraordinary thing and showed mercy. I think that helped Remus regain logical thinking, so to speak. And I think Remus was relieved that he didn't have to go through with killing Peter.

urquhartfay
April 8th, 2005, 9:34 pm
Originally Posted by Desraelda
I guess there's no answer that I can give other than everyone is entitled to act out of character in extraordinary circumstances.
I think this is a good point. I have tried to put myself into Remus' shoes during that time and attempt to figure out how I would have reacted. First off, I think I would have been in a state of shock due to discovering that everything I thought I knew about Sirius and Peter was wrong. Then I am sure I would have felt a lot of anger toward Wormtail for not only betraying James and Lily, but for his horrible acts against Sirius. I am sure I wouldn't have been thinking very clearly at this point, and I would probably have thought "Harry et. al. are in danger, this traitor needs to be taken care of." But then Harry did the extraordinary thing and showed mercy. I think that helped Remus regain logical thinking, so to speak. And I think Remus was relieved that he didn't have to go through with killing Peter.i agree, and there's also the fact that it was full moon and his body and brain were on the edge of a transformation. he may not have been as in control of himself as usual and thus reacted impulsively and angrily.

we have discussed this many times, but i don't recall that any of us have been completely satisfied with any answer. it's odd that remus wanted to kill peter. :huh:

Sabine Serpente
April 8th, 2005, 9:42 pm
i agree, and there's also the fact that it was full moon and his body and brain were on the edge of a transformation. he may not have been as in control of himself as usual and thus reacted impulsively and angrily.

we have discussed this many times, but i don't recall that any of us have been completely satisfied with any answer. it's odd that remus wanted to kill peter. :huh:

I do not find it the least bit odd that Remus was fully ready and willing to kill peter, when everything is taken into account. Peter is the betrayer of their small, once tight-knit group. He sold two of their dearest friends and their one year old child out to the most evil Wizard in existance. Honestly, what person in their right mind does that?
Peter is very underhanded, and i think a lot of people underestimate him.
I feel that Remus would have been perfectly justified in killing him.

gottaloveLupin
April 8th, 2005, 9:44 pm
by elf This is an interesting observation and if you notice, JKR basically addresses it in her quote about reading the Chronicles of Narnia as a child, but not comprehending the Christian symbolism until she reread the series as an adult. C.S. Lewis wrote the Narnia books for children, but as with much good literature there are layers, through which varying amounts of information will be gleaned depending upon the level of understanding of the reader. I can remember having an experience very much like JKR concerning that series. At the time my teacher read the Narnia books to us in grade three, I had no clue about the underlying symbolism, but the stories were gripping and fascinating. Later on I did come to realize the symbolism that C.S. Lewis had incorporated into his stories, much as Jo said in her quote.

Part of the reason the HP books appeal to such a vast age range is because JKR has written them to be very multi-layered books. That's why there is so much for us to discuss in these forums. So if she is incorporating this kind of symbolism into her books it doesn't mean that the story can't be an incredible read for someone not familiar with such things. It just means there are other layers that can be dug into with extra things to learn. This is the same regardless of the nature of the symbolism.

Hopefully what I mean here makes sense. In a nutshell, some people may realize that Lupin is comparable to Aslan and Christ (assuming we are correct in our theory) and for others he may just come across as self-sacrificing and heroic until a greater understanding of the symbolism is gained.

It makes perfect sense Elf. And I think this is how is going to happen: apparently, the key to the books will be very simple/ So simple, that we will feel like hiting our head on the wall and exclaiming: how could i not see it?

But there will be layers. Different levels of understanding. Below the apparent message will be lots of symbols and lots of references to all kind of legends or universal themes.

I wonder about the resurection though. The Christ figure can work out. Its appearance will be the idea of sacrifice and suffering. But what about resurection. Wouldn't it be very confusing for the children? And the idea of Remus being Godric is even more confusing!

by Sabine I do not find it the least bit odd that Remus was fully ready and willing to kill peter, when everything is taken into account. Peter is the betrayer of their small, once tight-knit group. He sold two of their dearest friends and their one year old child out to the most evil Wizard in existance. Honestly, what person in their right mind does that?
Peter is very underhanded, and i think a lot of people underestimate him.
I feel that Remus would have been perfectly justified in killing him

Well, I wouldn't have blamed, but I wouldn't have likde seeing him killing Peter either. It is wrong to kill a person, even if you are justified. And although I believe that the majority of people have a tiny bit of violence in them and in given circumstances are capable to kill, I trully want to believe that all these people can control themselves in the end and not do it.

I don't know if you've seen the movie Seven with Brad Pitt. Brad's character had all the reasons to kill the bad guy, but I really hoped that he won't do it. I didn't blame him for killing the bad guy, but I felt a little dissppointed, because in this way he gave himself to evil in a way and did exactly what the murderer wanted him to do.

I agree with Harry that both Sirius and Remus would have been murderers. And I am glad that harry stopped them.

I wonder if Remus would have stopped even if Harry had not interfered!

Desraelda
April 8th, 2005, 10:01 pm
I do not find it the least bit odd that Remus was fully ready and willing to kill peter, when everything is taken into account. Peter is the betrayer of their small, once tight-knit group. He sold two of their dearest friends and their one year old child out to the most evil Wizard in existance. Honestly, what person in their right mind does that?
Peter is very underhanded, and i think a lot of people underestimate him.
I feel that Remus would have been perfectly justified in killing him.
Peter deserved to be condemned to death or the dementor's kiss, hopefully after a fair trial. However, vigilante justice is not the way to go, and I think that's why Harry stopped them. It shows a great deal of maturity and caring on his part, not only for his godfather, but for the teacher that befriended him and taught him to defend himself. Looks like some of Remus rubbed off on Harry during that year.

Ifeelikedobby
April 8th, 2005, 10:11 pm
Exactly.
To me, Harry learning the concept of mercy was one of the greatest impact Lupin had on him.
Not only Harry went from thinking Sirius deserving of the Kiss, to sparing Peter. IMHO, Peter came off as being guilty of even more of what irius was accused of (he framed one of his best friends too, and we can assume he tried to make the other pass as a traitor back in the first war).
So much worst, yet Harry granted him mercy. See what an impact Remus in fact had on him?

I don't really disagree with this however, I did want to point out that, although Harry did show Peter Mercy, his reason was more because he didn't think his Dad would want Lupin and Sirius to become murderers because of him. He never said that Peter didn't deserve the Kiss and he said that he did deserve Azcaban. I do think Lupin taught Harry a lot in other ways though.

hobbitseeker
April 8th, 2005, 10:55 pm
Peter deserved to be condemned to death or the dementor's kiss, hopefully after a fair trial. However, vigilante justice is not the way to go, and I think that's why Harry stopped them. It shows a great deal of maturity and caring on his part, not only for his godfather, but for the teacher that befriended him and taught him to defend himself. Looks like some of Remus rubbed off on Harry during that year.


This reminds me of a quote from Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings. Frodo and Gandalf are discussing Gollum and Frodo states that Gollum deserves death. Gandalf then says:

"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

I think this is quite fitting to Wormtail's scenario. Because Harry stopped Remus from killing Peter, he now owes a life debt to Harry. Who knows what kind of implications will arise from that? So the teachings of Remus, making Harry think about whether people deserve the Dementor's kiss, were very important.

Elf
April 8th, 2005, 11:30 pm
original post by gottaloveLupin
I wonder about the resurection though. The Christ figure can work out. Its appearance will be the idea of sacrifice and suffering. But what about resurection. Wouldn't it be very confusing for the children? And the idea of Remus being Godric is even more confusing!
Again, a very legitimate question. To be perfectly honest I think it's far easier for children to grasp these concepts than we tend to think. In fact, to them it often makes a lot more sense than it does to adults because their minds aren't yet burdened with the skepticism that seems to naturally creep up on us as we grow older. To children, things like magic and miracles are very much a part of their everyday thought process.

This is part of the reason why I think it's great that so many adults love the Harry Potter series. It kind of brings us back to that point in life when we still believed in things that seem impossible--flying on broomsticks, waving magic wands, enchanted castles and even the concept that good can triumph over evil.

Thinking back to when my grade three teacher read The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe to us, I had almost no religious teaching at the time and didn't understand what Aslan's death symbolized, but I do remember that it didn't seem strange to me at all when Aslan returned--amazing, exciting, joyful, but not something unbelievable or confusing. Children just accept things like that easier I think.

So as far as a potential resurrection scenario with Lupin in the books, I don't think it's the kids who would have trouble with this so much as the adult crowd.

kingwidgit
April 8th, 2005, 11:35 pm
Not to mention that children reading HP have already been introduced to death/resurrection via Fawkes' death/rebirth & the re-birth of LV...

Flee From Death
April 8th, 2005, 11:38 pm
This reminds me of a quote from Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings. Frodo and Gandalf are discussing Gollum and Frodo states that Gollum deserves death. Gandalf then says:

"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
That's my favourite quote from LotR! And I agree with you. It's not that he doesn't deserve to die; that's not the question. The question is whether anyone has the right to kill him. And although I would have understood if Remus and Sirius had killed him I, like others, would have been disappointed: they would have descended to the level of murderers. They don't have to kill him to ensure the safety of others -- at that point they think they'll be safe taking him up to the castle, and even agree that it's okay to kill him if he tries to escape. If he'd been killed it would have been out of cold blood -- because they wanted revenge. And whilst this is an understandable motive it's not a very noble one.

As to why Remus was prepared to kill -- well I think he got carried away with the moment (and possibly the influence of the full moon). He was shocked, angry with what he'd put Sirius through and perhaps angry with himself for ever believing Sirius guilty (though that much is just conjecture). And in that moment he could have killed since the logical part of his mind that would normally stop him was overcome with emotion.

It's not an answer I'm completely happy with, but at the moment it's the best I've heard.

BTW Hobbitseeker, Elf and Urqu: I almost don't recognise you now you've changed your sigs, and I keep confusing you with each other! The Lyceum thingy's really cool.


EDIT: Elf I agree with what you're saying about children understanding more than people think. My 7-year-old cousin thoroughly amazed me by reading all the HP books, including OotP, on his own and with real understanding and enjoyment! I would never have imagined that he could have gotten through a book that long at his age but I was wrong. And although I could see many adult fans dislliking a resurrection I doubt many children would even question it or be confused (hey it worked for Lewis).

And as an example of how children understand: how many adults have you seen worrying about how HP makes children turn to witchcraft? And have you ever met a single child who couldn't actually understand that it was a story?

Saying this I must admit I'm not convinced that there will be a literal resurrection (though I could easily see a metaphoric one), I'm just saying that, like Elf, I think it would be the adults and not the children who would have a problem with it if it happenned.

gottaloveLupin
April 8th, 2005, 11:48 pm
by Elf So as far as a potential resurrection scenario with Lupin in the books, I don't think it's the kids who would have trouble with this so much as the adult crowd.

You are probably right! I would have problems with it, for example.

At the end of POA my reaction was: what? Ron' s rat was a human being? I was expecting a more muggle explanation and was very unpleased with the one Jo came up with. So I will probably be very confused and discontent if the dead characters in Harry Potter start to come to life, or if it turns out that a very well know character is in fact another character in disguise.

Which doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a good plotline, just that I think more in the muggle way.

Elf
April 9th, 2005, 12:30 am
original post by kingwidgit
Not to mention that children reading HP have already been introduced to death/resurrection via Fawkes death/rebirth & the re-birth of LV...
Exactly. And I tend to think there's a reason why JKR introduced those concepts, which is where I think Lupin will come in.

original post by Flee From Death
EDIT: Elf I agree with what you're saying about children understanding more than people think. My 7-year-old cousin thoroughly amazed me by reading all the HP books, including OotP, on his own and with real understanding and enjoyment! I would never have imagined that he could have gotten through a book that long at his age but I was wrong. And although I could see many adult fans dislliking a resurrection I doubt many children would even question it or be confused (hey it worked for Lewis).

And as an example of how children understand: how many adults have you seen worrying about how HP makes children turn to witchcraft? And have you ever met a single child who couldn't actually understand that it was a story?

Saying this I must admit I'm not convinced that there will be a literal resurrection (though I could easily see a metaphoric one), I'm just saying that, like Elf, I think it would be the adults and not the children who would have a problem with it if it happenned.
Yep, kids are amazing and not to be underestimated!

This is actually an interesting topic in relation to Lupin. Notice that he did not underestimate Harry concerning the Patronus lessons. He could have told Harry it was too difficult and that as a child he wouldn't understand or have the ability to accomplish such difficult magic. Instead he believed in Harry and in doing so empowered him to learn a piece of very advanced magic. During both Harry's hearing and OWLS we see adults who are shocked that Harry can actually produce a corporeal Patronus. The author has shown us that Lupin is not only an extraordinary teacher for how well he helps his students to learn, but for the fact that he believes they are fully capable of learning in the first place.

Funny thing then that Fudge and Umbridge are so fearful of the students' abilities that they refuse to let them learn in an appropriate way. They never give them the chance to achieve their potential because they find this threatening. And who do we have to credit with bringing out this potential, but Lupin, the only decent DADA teacher the students have ever had. Umbridge also openly discredits Lupin, much to the class's anger. Note too that the DA was formed as a result of not having a proper DADA teacher. The children never would have formed a secret group for learning defense had they never been exposed to good defense methods before. Again, they have Lupin to thank for that example. And also notice that when Hermione brought up the idea of forming a defense group, the conversation instantly turns to Lupin and how ideally he would teach them but it isn't possible. It would seem that Lupin has inspired his students to such a degree that they are a threat to evil, even forming their own ragtag army.

I can't help but think that JKR has set everything up that Lupin can be viewed as either the root of the problem (by the Ministry), or the the solution.

original post by gottaloveLupin
You are probably right! I would have problems with it, for example.

At the end of POA my reaction was: what? Ron' s rat was a human being? I was expecting a more muggle explanation and was very unpleased with the one Jo came up with. So I will probably be very confused and discontent if the dead characters in Harry Potter start to come to life, or if it turns out that a very well know character is in fact another character in disguise.

Which doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a good plotline, just that I think more in the muggle way.
Well, aside from issues of beliefs and worldviews, everyone has their preferences in what they read. I'm not a huge fan of the Grawp storyline for example, but I understand that JKR likely has a very good reason for incorporating it. I suppose in a series this long we'll all have our favourite parts and those we don't care for as much.

dsbs
April 9th, 2005, 12:35 am
As to why Remus was prepared to kill -- well I think he got carried away with the moment (and possibly the influence of the full moon). He was shocked, angry with what he'd put Sirius through and perhaps angry with himself for ever believing Sirius guilty (though that much is just conjecture). And in that moment he could have killed since the logical part of his mind that would normally stop him was overcome with emotion.
Hey everyone, good to be back! Just a quick post so I'll know when this thread comes up (you know that little arrow)

I agree, although I want to add (or maybe elaborate/stress would be better words) that when Sirius was sent to Azkhaban for 'betraying' the Potters and who knows what/who else as a Death Eater/spy (Hark! dsbs has discovered the / key! :p Ok, I don't know why, this paragraph just seems to need them more than most) Remus must have been furious - at Sirius, at himself. But he got what he 'deserved'. Peter took it one step further. Not only did he actually betray the Potters and who knows what/who else as a Death Eater/spy, but he framed his OTHER best friend (putting him through 12 years of guilt and torture and an undeserved bad name), AND got out of punishment himself. I don't know how many people can say they've had personal experience with such a level of betrayal and horrific-ness, and as Lupin had just learnt the story right then and there, and Sirius had been in Azkhaban for 12 long years, it's not surprising their immediate (well, maybe not so much in Sirius's case, but this isn't the Sirius discussion thread, and I think the 12 years of Azkhaban speak for themselves) reaction was to kill. After all, Peter essentially killed Lily and James, and Sirius, in a way (*at the time!!*). Harry, who we all know is a good kid despite being understandably moody and hormonal, has the same reaction towards Sirius in the same book. It is, as you said, a spur of the moment reaction made in what must be beyond anger, and depending on your moral views, could be considered fully justified.

Also, these books are kind of old fashioned in a way. Harry, as far as we know, will have to become a murderer himself in order to defeat Voldemort. Does Voldy deserve it? I think most would agree, yes. Nowadays, especially here in North America (or Canada, anyways), we would probably would prefer to throw him in jail, however inadequate that may seem. Peter is basically a death eater. He may have been a double agent, but when it came time, he showed that the side he was truly with, in body, if not in beliefs. Therefore, he ACTIVELY supports the cause Voldy (man, I'm lazy) stands for, and deserves roughly the same punishment. As the books go, they're very much about glory, revenge, knights and knightesses in shining armour. It's a lot simpler than real life, but so identifiable. In short, I think Lupin's reaction makes perfect sense, and being a Lupin Fanatic I wouldn't say this is my favourite moment of his, but I think it shows in him a lot of passion, and a sense of righteousness that makes perfect sense in the Harry Potter world.


Because that was quick, yes.

Desraelda
April 9th, 2005, 2:18 am
In short, I think Lupin's reaction makes perfect sense, and being a Lupin Fanatic I wouldn't say this is my favourite moment of his, but I think it shows in him a lot of passion, and a sense of righteousness that makes perfect sense in the Harry Potter world.
Your use of the word "righteousness" sent me on another path to explain Remus' nearly killing Pettigrew.

If we accept Elf and Loup's hypothesis that Lupin is the Christ/savior figure of the series (and I do), then could Remus' righteous anger be figuratively equivalent to Christ's righteous anger against the moneychangers in the Temple?

I don't wish to offend anyone or their religious beliefs, but this is the only way I could think of to explain my theory.

RemusLupinFan
April 9th, 2005, 4:14 am
You know, in a way, the manner in which Remus reacts to Peter- including being prepared to kill him- shows us how personally involved in this situation he really is. Normally, Remus is very objective and good at keeping his emotions inside. But here, we can see that this is a case where he canít judge things objectively- they hit too close to home. Remus canít be detached and impassive here- this would indicate that he didnít care enough about the whole situation to want to see Peter brought to justice and to see Peter be prevented from doing any more horrible things. In this scene, Lupin shows that he is a human being with human feelings, even if these feelings arenít necessarily moral ones. After all, even Remus makes mistakes, no matter how smart he may be.

I don't really disagree with this however, I did want to point out that, although Harry did show Peter Mercy, his reason was more because he didn't think his Dad would want Lupin and Sirius to become murderers because of him. He never said that Peter didn't deserve the Kiss and he said that he did deserve Azcaban. I do think Lupin taught Harry a lot in other ways though.:tu: Yes, this is a good point- Harry's reason for intervening has more to do with not wanting to see Remus and Sirius become murderers rather than for not wanting to see Peter receive justice.

Scothoser
April 9th, 2005, 4:25 am
I think it's important to point out that Remus didn't get heated and caught in the moment with his decision to kill Peter.. They had plenty of time to talk it over, look at the facts behind Peter's disappearance, Sirius' involvement, and Peter's motivation behind it. Sirius was caught up in a fervor, but Remus remained calm in his dealings. So, ultimately, the decision to kill Peter for his betrayal was one that was agreed upon in a logical thought process.

Now, keep in mind, we are seeing it from the Harry perspective.. Harry didn't know anything about the Order, and the rules and oaths that were associated with it. This leaves some points option to speculation:

1. Remus had reacted in a savage, vengeful way after thinking it all through, and decided to kill Peter. I don't like this theory because it doesn't meet with the ideal that I hold for Remus. Granted, he's not my character, but I like him so much I can't conceive that he would do such a thing.

2. Remus was performing the agreed punishment for anyone that would openly betray the Order. Again, because we are only seeing it through Harry's eyes, we don't know what the concequences would have been for open betrayal. Granted, I'm sure Dumbledore would have wanted the matter completely investigated, hence the recap and clarification that Remus needed before they would have killed Peter. I like this one, because it keeps with my ideal with Remus, and coincides with the terms of Hermione's conditions with the DA. Death wasn't the punishment, but there was still a punishment associated with betrayal.

3. The betrayal of James, and particularly Lilly (Yes, I think Remus had feelings for Lilly), caused Remus to be willing to perform the ultimate act of vengance on their killer and betrayer. This is also very likely, and appeals to Remus' human feelings. Even though it would be disappointing, it would still make sense to me.

Those are the aspects that I see with Remus. He's so much like Dumbledore in his patience and willingness for events to unfold that I can understand how Harry has come to see him as a friend. I don't think he sees him as a Father figure yet, but will in the coming books.

Remus is perhaps a better ideal for Harry to strive for than Sirius, because Remus has compassion and control. Not that I don't think Sirius didn't, but Sirius let his emotions control his actions. Remus was more prone to logic and reasoning, willing to see all aspects before he were to take action.

But wait, I can hear you say.. Wasn't he part of the Marauders? Of course he was, in his youth. I think that growing up in a world that despised him for what he was had forced Remus to mature fast, gain control of himself as a Human where he could not as a werewolf. He was willing to suffer at his own expense for the benefit of others. As he said at the end of PoA, he couldn't let it happen again.

And this is where I see a common thread in the Savior figure part (this is going to be non-religious, so I hope I don't offend). All great epics have a Savior figure. One that is caring, sacrifices all, and then is able to return in a different state. Whether this is death or a new outlook on life, it's basically the same. Remus has the compassion associated with Christ, just as Dumbledore has that same characteristic. Both have the same patience that I would associate with a Christ-like character. But I don't think Remus is THE Christ/savior figure. As with all similar stories and legends (see the Orphic Cult of Ancient Greece and Rome, or the Cult of Demeter), the Christ/savior character is the catalyst for the story, and effectively starts change. I don't think Remus will be that character. I see him rather as a follower of the Christ/savior character in the story. But I haven't decided whether it's Dumbledore, or Harry..

Anyway, that's what I think. I hope I didn't offend...

Happygirl
April 9th, 2005, 4:54 pm
Hey there, I'm new to this thread, new to the Chamber of Secrets entirely!

I just feel that Remus is a character who can lose sight of his morals, just like anyone else. He's human. Nothing can change that and I believe the author wants us to get that point. Human nature is never balanced... we say things we don't mean, and do plenty we regret. That' s why I'm a fan of Remus because he's not pretending to be perfect. He came to know who he is and what his limitations are... it's not fair, but he handles it with his head level, not not facing the ground... I hope I make some sense, tell me if I don't. :blush:

strange magic
April 9th, 2005, 5:12 pm
Yay newbie

RemusLupinFan
April 9th, 2005, 7:36 pm
I just feel that Remus is a character who can lose sight of his morals, just like anyone else. He's human. Nothing can change that and I believe the author wants us to get that point. Human nature is never balanced... we say things we don't mean, and do plenty we regret. That' s why I'm a fan of Remus because he's not pretending to be perfect. He came to know who he is and what his limitations are... it's not fair, but he handles it with his head level, not not facing the ground... I hope I make some sense, tell me if I don't.:welcome: Happygirl to the thread and to the forums! What you say here makes perfect sense- and I agree, especially with what you said about Remus not pretending to be perfect. :tu: He is indeed very level-headed, and during the Shrieking Shack scene, he is also willing to a) admit his faults, and b) own up to them and take the punishment for them (afterwards when he forgot his potion, he resigns so he doesn't risk hurting anyone).

hobbitseeker
April 9th, 2005, 8:45 pm
You know, in a way, the manner in which Remus reacts to Peter- including being prepared to kill him- shows us how personally involved in this situation he really is. Normally, Remus is very objective and good at keeping his emotions inside. But here, we can see that this is a case where he canít judge things objectively- they hit too close to home. Remus canít be detached and impassive here- this would indicate that he didnít care enough about the whole situation to want to see Peter brought to justice and to see Peter be prevented from doing any more horrible things. In this scene, Lupin shows that he is a human being with human feelings, even if these feelings arenít necessarily moral ones. After all, even Remus makes mistakes, no matter how smart he may be.

I think this is an excellent point, and even more significant when you compare his human emotions and behaviors with his transformation into a werewolf directly after this scene. I think JKR did a good job of reminding us that regardless of his lycanthropy, Lupin is NOT a monster--he is a human being with human frailties and human emotions, who, like so many people in the world, is trying to do the best he can but still makes human mistakes like the rest of us.

Scothoser
April 9th, 2005, 9:22 pm
I think JKR did a good job of reminding us that regardless of his lycanthropy, Lupin is NOT a monster--he is a human being with human frailties and human emotions, who, like so many people in the world, is trying to do the best he can but still makes human mistakes like the rest of us.

I think that sums up many of the characters that JKR has introduced in her books. Here are beings of various types, whether it be a Werewolf which we are made wary of in SS/PS, Centaurs, Merpeople, or even a hippogriff, we are shown that everything and everyone has their place, and should be respected.

Lupin is perhaps the second most "human" character in the book, next to Dumbledore, when it comes to caring and respect. He earns the respect of everyone at school (with the exception of Draco and their ilk) because he shows respect to the students. Severus, on the other hand, has to use fear in order to command respect. It's interesting that the two sides of these classmates represent the polar opposites in the book...

MomGonagall
April 9th, 2005, 9:24 pm
About the Shrieking Shack scene...
It wasn't just Remus and Sirius who were ready to kill in that scene. Harry was ready too, full of fury, and pointing his wand at Sirius. His was a more passionate, spur of the moment impulse to kill, where Sirius and Remus were more cold and matter of fact about it, but in both instances it is unsettling to have such sympathetic characters coming to the brink of murder. Unsettling, but it does make the characters richer, more complex.

I think it also illustrates Dumbledore's lesson that it is our choices being what defines who we are. Having Sirius and Remus ready to coldly do away with Peter gives Harry a chance to do the noble and very mature thing of intervening. That isn't an easy choice to make--standing up to 2 grown-ups and defending the person who triggered the miseries of his life. But by making that choice it shows that Harry is ultimately moral and just and caring -- not about Peter, but caring about his father's friends. Which is another of Dumbledore's lessons, the strong magic of the love in our hearts.

I liked in the movie how Remus got to tell Harry that what he had done that night made all the difference in the world. Interesting how easily Dumbledore's words fit Remus's character, eh?

aCiDxXxdRoP
April 9th, 2005, 9:27 pm
Scothoser... I agree completely with everything you said. I don't really have anything to add, but I needed to post just to say that. lol and omg you live in the same state as me!

All this talk about the Order has brought me to wonder exactly what Remus did during the first war. Could it possibly still be the same mysterious things he's doing now? and it still bothers me why he wasn't standing anywhere near James and Lily in the original OotP photograph (which makes me wonder about Remus/Lily happenings).

Scothoser
April 9th, 2005, 10:19 pm
All this talk about the Order has brought me to wonder exactly what Remus did during the first war. Could it possibly still be the same mysterious things he's doing now? and it still bothers me why he wasn't standing anywhere near James and Lily in the original OotP photograph (which makes me wonder about Remus/Lily happenings).

Good questions aCiDxXxdRoP! We will probably find out more about both in book 6, at least that's my guess. If we find out what James and Lily did, I would hope that we find out more about what Remus and Sirius did. We know that we will hear more about Sirius in the coming books, as memories. Perhaps we will find out more about Remus, as he was so close. Or at least find out why he wasn't around. ^_^

gottaloveLupin
April 9th, 2005, 10:22 pm
by Scothoser And this is where I see a common thread in the Savior figure part (this is going to be non-religious, so I hope I don't offend). All great epics have a Savior figure. One that is caring, sacrifices all, and then is able to return in a different state. Whether this is death or a new outlook on life, it's basically the same. Remus has the compassion associated with Christ, just as Dumbledore has that same characteristic. Both have the same patience that I would associate with a Christ-like character. But I don't think Remus is THE Christ/savior figure. As with all similar stories and legends (see the Orphic Cult of Ancient Greece and Rome, or the Cult of Demeter), the Christ/savior character is the catalyst for the story, and effectively starts change. I don't think Remus will be that character. I see him rather as a follower of the Christ/savior character in the story. But I haven't decided whether it's Dumbledore, or Harry..

Anyway, that's what I think. I hope I didn't offend...


actually, I think that the character who will sacrifice himself for the well-being of the wizarding world is Dumbledore. I am convinced that he is going to die!

you are right in telling that Remus is a lot like DD. In an earlier version of this thread we talked about how DD, Remus and Harry seem to be the same person at different age.

by MomGonagal About the Shrieking Shack scene...
It wasn't just Remus and Sirius who were ready to kill in that scene. Harry was ready too, full of fury, and pointing his wand at Sirius. His was a more passionate, spur of the moment impulse to kill, where Sirius and Remus were more cold and matter of fact about it, but in both instances it is unsettling to have such sympathetic characters coming to the brink of murder. Unsettling, but it does make the characters richer, more complex.

Yes, this is something I've meant to say for a long time. In that scene not only Sirius and Remus are willing to kill Peter, also Ron and Hermione are willing to see him get killed. Remember that Peter asks Ron and Hermione for forgiveness and they don't show him any. Peter askes them to defend him, and they don't do it. On the contrary, the wait patiently, though horrified to see Peter get killed.

And let's not forget that Hermione isn't one to witness something she disaproves of and not say a word about it! She showed a lot of courage earlier on when she attacked Lupin. She would not have shut up if she had thought that Peter shouldn't die. But she didn't say a word. Whcih shows that she believed Peter deserved to die. AND which proves that she lost her head on that occasion, too.

Talking about the adult figures in harry life, I think it would be interesting to see how exactly the relationship between DD and Harry will be.

We've already witnessed twice Harry losing his respect for someone. He did it with Snape in POA. Until that moment he respected Snape. From that moment he did not. In pOA he shouted at Snape. No respect there.

In OOTP he shouts at DD. He loses part of his respect for him, too. At least he loses his high opinion on him. he used to see DD as a sort of God. The most powerful wizard alive, the wisest etc. Well DD is no longer on that pedestal in Harry's eyes. He fell out of that pedestal.

So, in these circumstances, can we say that Remus is the only adult figure of Harry's current life that has not let him down? Do you think we will get to see Harry shouting at Lupin? Or do you think that given the chance Harry would have shouted at Lupin. There is the MOM scene......

winky22
April 9th, 2005, 10:39 pm
There is some theorys going around in this thread The future for the last two Marauders (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=47181)

LinnendeBlack
April 9th, 2005, 10:57 pm
I think it's important to point out that Remus didn't get heated and caught in the moment with his decision to kill Peter.. They had plenty of time to talk it over, look at the facts behind Peter's disappearance, Sirius' involvement, and Peter's motivation behind it. Sirius was caught up in a fervor, but Remus remained calm in his dealings. So, ultimately, the decision to kill Peter for his betrayal was one that was agreed upon in a logical thought process.

I actually think that Remus wasn't as calm as he acted in that scene. He doesn't seem to be a person that expresses his emotions often and I think that during that scene, inside he was raging, and he was so angry that all he could think about was killing Peter for what he did.
I don't think he had time to think it through or decide that he would kill Peter a long time ago because after all he thought Peter was dead. There was no evidence of him being alive as far as he was concerned because back when it all happened, there were twelve muggles killed, Peter had disappeared and Sirius had just been 'caught' and was laughing like a maniac. So I think that Remus just acted on impulse with the decision to kill Peter, and perhaps regretted it later on.

Remsy Luck
April 9th, 2005, 11:00 pm
Hey there, I'm new to this thread, new to the Chamber of Secrets entirely!

I just feel that Remus is a character who can lose sight of his morals, just like anyone else. He's human. Nothing can change that and I believe the author wants us to get that point. Human nature is never balanced... we say things we don't mean, and do plenty we regret. That' s why I'm a fan of Remus because he's not pretending to be perfect. He came to know who he is and what his limitations are... it's not fair, but he handles it with his head level, not not facing the ground... I hope I make some sense, tell me if I don't. :blush:

Hello and welcome! :welcome:
You said something very true, and I wholeheartely agree on the bold part.
Of course, also the Remus bit si dead on: that's exactly what seems to be his strenght. He was dealt an unfair hand, he's cursed with a disease that makes him shunned by the majority of his community, without having a choice in it.
Yet, he never turned bitter. He accepted his life and learned to live it.
As someone said once in this topic (quote that I'll remember for life cause I adored it), Remus took the lemons in his life, made lemonade and drank it up.
(Forgive if the quote is not totally correct).




Talking about the adult figures in harry life, I think it would be interesting to see how exactly the relationship between DD and Harry will be.

We've already witnessed twice Harry losing his respect for someone. He did it with Snape in POA. Until that moment he respected Snape. From that moment he did not. In pOA he shouted at Snape. No respect there.

In OOTP he shouts at DD. He loses part of his respect for him, too. At least he loses his high opinion on him. he used to see DD as a sort of God. The most powerful wizard alive, the wisest etc. Well DD is no longer on that pedestal in Harry's eyes. He fell out of that pedestal.

So, in these circumstances, can we say that Remus is the only adult figure of Harry's current life that has not let him down? Do you think we will get to see Harry shouting at Lupin? Or do you think that given the chance Harry would have shouted at Lupin. There is the MOM scene......

Interesting topic, one that I wondered about.
While I don't think there'll be an instance that could bring Harry to lose his respect for Remus (I could be wrong and watching it through pink colored glasses, but somehow I don't think so), I do think we might see Harry shout at Lupin, early in the book. Frustration, bottled-up emotions, the time-closeness of Sirius' death and ultimately the prophecy are most likely making Harry even more "emotionally instable", pushing him to lash out in anger every once in a while, being at this point the only type of release he knows.
I don't think Harry is ready yet to have a good cry without feeling embarassed, or even express his feelings, so rage, tantrums and lashing out is probably still the only release at least at the beginning of book 6.

Now, I do think Remus will be the one able to bring Harry to open up and to acceptance, but it won't happen from night to day...it'll be gradual, and in the process of helping Harry deal with what's happening to him and around him, Harry shouting at him will happen, IMHO. I can see Harry ebing ashamed of it afterwards, but I do think there's a fair chance it'll happen.
But this could easely be what will break the last reserve and bring them closer.

Scothoser
April 9th, 2005, 11:02 pm
So, in these circumstances, can we say that Remus is the only adult figure of Harry's current life that has not let him down? Do you think we will get to see Harry shouting at Lupin? Or do you think that given the chance Harry would have shouted at Lupin. There is the MOM scene......

Excellent point! I agree that it seems Remus is the only adult that hasn't disappointed him in his life now.. at least currently. Harry is starting to grow up, and realize that people can make mistakes - even those that we have such high opinions of. I think by the end of book 7, Harry will learn how to respect and honor people in spite of their flaws, after he sees the examples that both Dumbledore and Remus have given him through a more mature view.

I honestly think that Remus will become Harry's one link to his parents, and take over as the father figure that he needs. Remus has shown him attention that he hasn't been able to get from anyone else, even the Weasley's. He has also admonished Harry in a loving way for using the map. He was willing to be fair to Harry, while making sure he understood the gravity of his situation. That, in my mind, is a very fatherly thing to do. He also doesn't try to lessen the impact of wrong-doing, even when he is at fault. He takes responsibility for his actions, even when he was a kid.

WoodenCoyote
April 9th, 2005, 11:04 pm
All this talk about the Order has brought me to wonder exactly what Remus did during the first war. Could it possibly still be the same mysterious things he's doing now? and it still bothers me why he wasn't standing anywhere near James and Lily in the original OotP photograph (which makes me wonder about Remus/Lily happenings).I don't think him standing apart from the others has anything to do with a romantic involvement with Lily [ honestly, you Remus-Lily shippers will latch onto anything :p ]
Sirius said he had suspected that Remus was the spy during the first war, and Remus himself knew he was under the lens. I can imagine there must have been a lot of tension among the Marauders to begin with - secret missions, people dying left and right, James and Lily already Voldemort's targets, everyone suspecting everyone else - with all the stress, they could have simply drifted apart. Remus might have even removed himself from the group, thinking that's what the others wanted.

Scothoser
April 10th, 2005, 1:28 am
I don't think him standing apart from the others has anything to do with a romantic involvement with Lily [ honestly, you Remus-Lily shippers will latch onto anything :p ]
Sirius said he had suspected that Remus was the spy during the first war, and Remus himself knew he was under the lens. I can imagine there must have been a lot of tension among the Marauders to begin with - secret missions, people dying left and right, James and Lily already Voldemort's targets, everyone suspecting everyone else - with all the stress, they could have simply drifted apart. Remus might have even removed himself from the group, thinking that's what the others wanted.

I still think that Remus had some special feelings for Lily, even if it wasn't returned, even if it's only evidenced in a passing comment in the movie and not in the books. But I agree that it wouldn't be the cause of Remus not being in the picture, or part of the group there at the end. Even when he was at school, Remus would had shown some level of personal understanding and maturity. But I don't think he was under the glass as being a spy, and excluded by everything. After all, the only thing we know of that he was excluded from was the change from Sirius to Peter Pettigrew.

But it does beg the question: Why did they even think about Remus as a possible spy? Could it be because he was a werewolf, and Voldemort promised a lot of freedom for werewolves to gain their support? That's just supposition, since we don't know what happened before. But it would explain why he was excluded, while also being part of the "old crowd". Perhaps he was infiltrating the Werewolf groups that Voldemort had selected, unbeknownst to the others. But then, that may be because I'm partial to looking at Remus' character with rose-tinted classes.

WoodenCoyote
April 10th, 2005, 1:34 am
Remus had the most reasons to be unhappy with the MoM. An outisder looking at him could easily say, aside from the typical slander because he's a werewolf, "hey, if the MoM was overthrown, that guy would be better off." It another thing for people to be suspicious of. Am I explaining this right?

RemusLupinFan
April 10th, 2005, 1:45 am
But it does beg the question: Why did they even think about Remus as a possible spy? I've come up with a lot of reasons for this in the past. Basically, I feel that Peter was really at the heart of the reason why Sirius and later James and Lily came to believe Remus was the spy. I see Peter sewing the seeds of distrust between the Marauders- specifically, I think he used the Whomping Willow incident to his advantage. I think he could have told Sirius that Lupin wanted revenge on Sirius for the prank he played on Snape, which nearly got Lupin branded a murderer or a sire. After a while, Sirius might have been convinced, after all, those were dark times when nobody could trust anybody else.

Another factor may have been that he was a werewolf, as you mentioned. Though I feel that this factor may have been a subconscious one for Sirius. After what the Marauders did for Remus, I'd like to think that they didn't let prejudice influence their view of Remus, but perhaps subconsciously this could have been a factor. I believe that Voldemort was actually recruiting werewolves at that time (forgive me if I'm remembering incorrectly), but if he was, this fact might have influenced the way Sirius saw Remus.

Finally, I'm sure Remus was away a lot of the time on mysterious Order business that Sirius, James and Lily didn't know about (sort of like a classified mission). This isn't too hard to imagine, because in OotP, Remus is also AWOL for most of the time doing something that we don't know about. Plus, he appears to have a high rank within the Order. So if he was doing something for the Order which required him to travel a lot or just to be away from his friends for extended periods of time, it's possible that Sirius (with the influence of Peter's lies) might have started to wonder where Remus was and what he was doing.

So in the end, I think that the reasons why Sirius believed Remus was the spy were multiple. Also, it should be noted that I don't believe that when it was discovered that there was a spy in their midst, Sirius, James or Lily immediately thought of Remus. I see it as something Peter tried to encourage in order to take the heat off of himself. I also think Peter probably tried to get Remus to suspect Sirius, probably by reminding him of the Whomping Willow incident and how Sirius used him to get back at Snape. So in this way, Peter's lies worked in both directions.

hobbitseeker
April 10th, 2005, 3:15 am
I've come up with a lot of reasons for this in the past. Basically, I feel that Peter was really at the heart of the reason why Sirius and later James and Lily came to believe Remus was the spy. I see Peter sewing the seeds of distrust between the Marauders- specifically, I think he used the Whomping Willow incident to his advantage. I think he could have told Sirius that Lupin wanted revenge on Sirius for the prank he played on Snape, which nearly got Lupin branded a murderer or a sire. After a while, Sirius might have been convinced, after all, those were dark times when nobody could trust anybody else.

Another factor may have been that he was a werewolf, as you mentioned. Though I feel that this factor may have been a subconscious one for Sirius. After what the Marauders did for Remus, I'd like to think that they didn't let prejudice influence their view of Remus, but perhaps subconsciously this could have been a factor. I believe that Voldemort was actually recruiting werewolves at that time (forgive me if I'm remembering incorrectly), but if he was, this fact might have influenced the way Sirius saw Remus.

Finally, I'm sure Remus was away a lot of the time on mysterious Order business that Sirius, James and Lily didn't know about (sort of like a classified mission). This isn't too hard to imagine, because in OotP, Remus is also AWOL for most of the time doing something that we don't know about. Plus, he appears to have a high rank within the Order. So if he was doing something for the Order which required him to travel a lot or just to be away from his friends for extended periods of time, it's possible that Sirius (with the influence of Peter's lies) might have started to wonder where Remus was and what he was doing.

So in the end, I think that the reasons why Sirius believed Remus was the spy were multiple. Also, it should be noted that I don't believe that when it was discovered that there was a spy in their midst, Sirius, James or Lily immediately thought of Remus. I see it as something Peter tried to encourage in order to take the heat off of himself. I also think Peter probably tried to get Remus to suspect Sirius, probably by reminding him of the Whomping Willow incident and how Sirius used him to get back at Snape. So in this way, Peter's lies worked in both directions.

Leave it up to me to bring LOTR into it, huh ;) Of course I'm talking about the similarities between Wormtail/Peter and Wormtongue/Grima. I agree 100% with your analysis of this situation. Peter seems like just the type of person to whisper and manipulate a situation like this where people would begin suspecting Remus as the spy instead of himself. It is very similar to how Grima poisoned the mind of Theoden against his own people, including his nephew. We saw in the Shrieking Shack how Peter was desperately trying to change anyone's mind ("Ron, I was a good rat!" etc.) in order to save his skin. To me, Peter is the type of person to do anything to save himself, and since we already know he sold Lily and James to Voldemort, what wouldn't have kept him from poisoning the minds of his so-called friends against Remus?

shaggydogstail
April 10th, 2005, 6:04 am
I've come up with a lot of reasons for this in the past. Basically, I feel that Peter was really at the heart of the reason why Sirius and later James and Lily came to believe Remus was the spy. I see Peter sewing the seeds of distrust between the Marauders- specifically, I think he used the Whomping Willow incident to his advantage. I think he could have told Sirius that Lupin wanted revenge on Sirius for the prank he played on Snape, which nearly got Lupin branded a murderer or a sire. After a while, Sirius might have been convinced, after all, those were dark times when nobody could trust anybody else.I tend to agree, though I see it very slightly differently - I think Wormtail's methods might have been more subtle.

Just a couple of quick points to start - we know that Sirius suspected Remus, but it isn't confirmed that Lily and James did. It seems likely, as they didn't tell him about the plan either, but we don't know for sure. The other point is that Dumbledore suspected there was a spy in the Order, but we don't know if he thought it was one of the Marauders or not.

The more I think about this, the easier it seems for Wormtail to cast doubt on Remus. He didn't need to convince Sirius as such, just make him doubt Remus enough to keep him out of the loop, to be on the safe side as it were. In the Shrieking Shack Remus says he 'assumes' that Sirius thought he was the spy, so he evidently didn't know this before, which suggests that Sirius never openly accused him. This, in turn, suggests that though Sirius might have had doubts about Remus, he wasn't wholly convinced he was the spy. Peter didn't have to absolutely convince Sirius that Remus was the spy, as Sirius would have to keep the information about the Secret-Keeper from him if he had only the slightest of suspicions - the stakes were too high for even the smallest of doubts.

I agree that the Whomping Willow incident was important, but in a slightly different way to how you suggest. I doubt that Peter actually said Remus wanted revenge for it. I think he would have manipulated Sirius' own guilt about what he did. Any betrayal damages the trust in a relationship, regardless of who did the betraying. It isn't logical for Sirius to suspect Remus because he'd betrayed him, but guilt isn't a logical emotion and when someone feels guilty it can be easy to manipulate them.

I also think Remus was doing Mysterious and Secretive work for the Order back then too. When you don't know what someone is doing, it makes it easier to suspect them. Remus has a track record of being secretive; he kept his lycanthropy a secret from his friends for two years until they worked it out for themselves. Again, logically this is understandable but in the climate of fear and paranoia at the time, it can make people suspicious.

All these things could be used by Peter to turn Sirius against Remus. I doubt Peter actually openly tried to convince Sirius that Remus was the spy, more that he continually brought up the Whomping Willow incident, the secret of Remus' lycanthropy and kept on asking Sirius what Remus was doing. The more Peter questions what Remus is up too, the more Sirius starts to wonder, 'yeah, what is he up to?' :evil:
Originally Posted by Scothoser
I think it's important to point out that Remus didn't get heated and caught in the moment with his decision to kill Peter.. They had plenty of time to talk it over, look at the facts behind Peter's disappearance, Sirius' involvement, and Peter's motivation behind it. Sirius was caught up in a fervor, but Remus remained calm in his dealings. So, ultimately, the decision to kill Peter for his betrayal was one that was agreed upon in a logical thought process. I'm not sure that I would say Remus was calm, exactly. He isn't shouting and borderline hysterical like Sirius, but I think he is in a state of extreme emotional turmoil. He does seem quite rational though.

One thing that interests me is the complete lack of discussion between Remus and Sirius about what they are going to do. They talk about what happened and there is a strong hint that Remus uses legilimency on Sirius, but not what they are going to do. We don't even know how they planned to kill him; Avada Kedavra or some other way. It seems very much like they both know what is happening already, almost as if they are working to a plan. Had they made some pledge many years ago where the Marauders agreed that any traitor would be executed? Was it even Order policy to kill traitors? Neither of these are particularly appealing ideas, but they do have some historical foundation in that groups of freedom fighters often have behaved like that. I just think it is interesting that whether or not Peter should be killed isn't even a question until Harry steps in.

Dollmage
April 10th, 2005, 9:08 am
I'm not sure that I would say Remus was calm, exactly. He isn't shouting and borderline hysterical like Sirius, but I think he is in a state of extreme emotional turmoil. He does seem quite rational though.

One thing that interests me is the complete lack of discussion between Remus and Sirius about what they are going to do. They talk about what happened and there is a strong hint that Remus uses legilimency on Sirius, but not what they are going to do. We don't even know how they planned to kill him; Avada Kedavra or some other way. It seems very much like they both know what is happening already, almost as if they are working to a plan. Had they made some pledge many years ago where the Marauders agreed that any traitor would be executed? Was it even Order policy to kill traitors? Neither of these are particularly appealing ideas, but they do have some historical foundation in that groups of freedom fighters often have behaved like that. I just think it is interesting that whether or not Peter should be killed isn't even a question until Harry steps in.

One reason for the difference between the calm vs hysterical emotions between Sirius and Remus is I think that Remus was still letting the truth sink in. He was probably still a little 'this can't be happening' and he wanted to make sure it was before he freaked out. Sirius however had 12(is that right) years sitting in Azkaban dwelling on all his bad memories(most likely the worst being the day he persuaded James and Lily to use Peter instead)and 12 years to know he was innocent and that the traitor was still on the lose, waiting. Remus probably had 12 minutes in comparison.

I wonder if maybe it is just the level of their old friendship in which they were able to understand what each other wanted to do without words. I'm not sure but I think in the beginning of the scene, they don't need alot of words to explain who the betrayer is before trusting each other again because I believe neither wanted to truly believe the other was guilty in the first place.



This just made me think of a question(or two): Where was Remus the night James and Lily died? And how did he find out what happened?

Elf
April 10th, 2005, 10:59 am
On the topic of Peter stirring up suspicion amongst his friends, I think it can be said that although Peter is apparently a Gryffindor, his actions have been much more Slytherin-like. The Sorting Hat refers to the Slytherins as "cunning folk". The definition of cunning from Answers.com is : Marked by or given to artful subtlety and deceptiveness. Notice that the name Wormtail even brings to mind snake imagery. (worm=snake)

Note the similarity in this definition for the word "worm": To work (one's way or oneself) subtly or gradually; insinuate: She wormed her way into his confidence. The key here is subtlety.

Not only is Peter's animagus form significant because his betrayal likens him to a rat, but his animagus nickname seems to practically hand us the answer to why at least Sirius suspected Remus of being the spy. Peter wormed his way in and caused doubt--subtly and gradually as the definition suggests.

This makes sense for what we know of Peter's character. He isn't the type to act boldly. He's the sort that whimpers and and acts only because his fear compels him to. Planting doubts one little lie at a time is exactly the type of cowardly behaviour one would expect from Peter. The fact that JKR not only created his character to be the betrayer, but gave him a nickname so expressive of his worm-like personality, strongly suggests that Peter caused the suspicions of Remus as part of his plan to hand the Potters over to Voldemort.

LinnendeBlack
April 10th, 2005, 3:55 pm
But it does beg the question: Why did they even think about Remus as a possible spy? Could it be because he was a werewolf, and Voldemort promised a lot of freedom for werewolves to gain their support? That's just supposition, since we don't know what happened before. But it would explain why he was excluded, while also being part of the "old crowd". Perhaps he was infiltrating the Werewolf groups that Voldemort had selected, unbeknownst to the others. But then, that may be because I'm partial to looking at Remus' character with rose-tinted classes.

I suppose it could be because he was a werewolf and a few of the old prejudices came through when people thought he was a spy. Or maybe people suspected him because he was 'the quiet one' who was very mysterious, and he also had a great interest in defence against the dark arts which people could think was a cover up for being so into the dark arts. (Although we know he wasn't :) )
And I also definately think Peter stirred things up a bit between the Marauders.

Tarantallegra
April 10th, 2005, 3:57 pm
On the topic of Peter stirring up suspicion amongst his friends, I think it can be said that although Peter is apparently a Gryffindor, his actions have been much more Slytherin-like. The Sorting Hat refers to the Slytherins as "cunning folk". The definition of cunning from Answers.com is : Marked by or given to artful subtlety and deceptiveness. Notice that the name Wormtail even brings to mind snake imagery. (worm=snake)

Note the similarity in this definition for the word "worm": To work (one's way or oneself) subtly or gradually; insinuate: She wormed her way into his confidence. The key here is subtlety.

Not only is Peter's animagus form significant because his betrayal likens him to a rat, but his animagus nickname seems to practically hand us the answer to why at least Sirius suspected Remus of being the spy. Peter wormed his way in and caused doubt--subtly and gradually as the definition suggests.

This makes sense for what we know of Peter's character. He isn't the type to act boldly. He's the sort that whimpers and and acts only because his fear compels him to. Planting doubts one little lie at a time is exactly the type of cowardly behaviour one would expect from Peter. The fact that JKR not only created his character to be the betrayer, but gave him a nickname so expressive of his worm-like personality, strongly suggests that Peter caused the suspicions of Remus as part of his plan to hand the Potters over to Voldemort.

But then I wonder why was Peter put in Gryffendor? Bravery must have been the dominate triat. We do know he had to have some courage to join the Death Eaters, return to Voldemort, and betray the entire Order in the first place. Feeding ideas into Sirius's mind, if that was indeed the case, would have been quite slytherine-like, though.

Back on topic though, the fact that Remus was portrayed suspicios probably wasn't a rare or signifigant thing. In an organizaion like the Order, doubt and suspicion has to be an everyday occurance. Im sure the majority of the 'old crowd' was deemed a tritor some time or another. Sirius just happened to be the best friend of James, and Peter would just be seemingly unexpected. The changing of the seecret keeper was a result of doubt, wasn't it? To Sirius and the Potters, the thought that Remus or any of their friends betraying them obviously didnt mean much. Remus wasn't even ruffled when Sirius told him they thought he was a traitor.

(Im sorry that was a jumbled reply. Im just a little kid though... :blush: )

RemusLupinFan
April 10th, 2005, 4:41 pm
I doubt Peter actually openly tried to convince Sirius that Remus was the spy, more that he continually brought up the Whomping Willow incident, the secret of Remus' lycanthropy and kept on asking Sirius what Remus was doing. The more Peter questions what Remus is up too, the more Sirius starts to wonder, 'yeah, what is he up to?'I agree with the fact that Peter was probably very subtle in his sewing the seeds of mistrust between the Marauders, and indeed, I do picture Peterís whisperings to be insidious and cunning. After all, youíd have to be subtle so that the people youíre trying to get to mistrust each other donít start mistrusting you because they see what youíre up to. Therefore, I agree that Peter wouldnít have had to get Sirius to completely suspect Remus, but that heíd just have to get Sirius to rack up enough doubts about Remus to believe that he is the most likely candidate to be suspected as spy. But Sirius would have had to be convinced enough to tell James and Lily to have doubts about Remus, possibly to convince them not to choose Remus as their Secret-Keeper (although I lean towards Lily and James choosing Sirius right off the bat), and to tell them to switch the Secret-Keeper to Peter rather than (himself or) Remus. This is more what I meant when I said that James and Lily suspected Remus of being the spy: that they came to believe Sirius's doubts about Remus due to Wormtail (by the way, great analysis of this nickname, Elf) rather than them suspecting Remus the way Sirius was manipulated to.

I doubt that Peter actually said Remus wanted revenge for it. I think he would have manipulated Sirius' own guilt about what he did.Perhaps you're right, but the reason I thought it was possible that Peter might have insinuated to Sirius that Remus was still angry about the Willow incident was because Remus would have every right to be angry (although it isn't like him to retain a grudge). I thought that if Peter tried to convince Sirius that Remus was willing to join Voldemort because he harbored ill feelings against him, this would be another reason for Sirius to suspect Remus. But now that I think about it, that wouldn't be too subtle on Peter's part, so you could be right that Peter never tried to paint a picture of Remus wanting revenge to Sirius.

Had they made some pledge many years ago where the Marauders agreed that any traitor would be executed?I does almost seem like an ďhonor codeĒ amongst the Marauders. I kind of doubt that the Order would have such a policy because I donít think Dumbledore would ever allow it.

By the way, :welcome: Tarantallegra!

Tarantallegra
April 10th, 2005, 4:53 pm
By the way, :welcome: Tarantallegra!

Thankyou, and although this is off-topic, I must comment on the wonderful analysis on this forum! The insight amazed me! My complements to you all!

WoodenCoyote
April 10th, 2005, 5:11 pm
As for Peter trying to stir up ill will among the Marauders, well we have a canon example of that already, haven't we? When he's outed in the Shack in PoA, one of the first things he tries to do is bring up the lack of trust between Remus and Sirius and make them doubt each other again.

"Remus!" Pettigrew squeaked, turning to Lupin instead, writhing imploringly in front of him. "You don't believe this... Wouldn't Sirius have told you they'd changed the plan?"
PoA, p273, UK

Mcpherson
April 10th, 2005, 5:13 pm
I does almost seem like an ďhonor codeĒ amongst the Marauders. I kind of doubt that the Order would have such a policy because I donít think Dumbledore would ever allow it.

It is the most probable possibility, but some I've got questions concerning this. When would the Marauders make their 'honor code' as you've called it? It is not a very uncommon thing among children to make 'secret' organizations with their own sets of rules. It gives them the feeling of being special or even better than other children. The Marauders seem something of a gang type to me, so they could have made their own code. But normally, such rules are made in such 'organizations' that more people could join. The statute would be a help for the newbies or be a part of the introduction rituals of the groups ('you have to know the code by heart. If you don't you will have to eat frog spawn...'). But I have never heard about a rule telling to kill a traitor of the group. It sounds too drastic and bloody even for the children. And also, if the Marauders made such a 'law' when they were very young, they would probably forget about it.

More probable would be if the Marauders made such a rule after leaving the school, or when they entered the Order. It could have been a way to protect the members of the Marauders from a possible traitor, but it would also imply that they had to suspect each other as well. There had to be the air of uneasiness, thanks to Wormtail. The 'honor code' could have been the last effort to bring the Marauders closer to each other. It is sad to think that they had such problems, but it would fit with the overall idea of how Peter worked to destroy friendship between James, Peter and Remus.

RemusLupinFan
April 10th, 2005, 5:18 pm
More probable would be if the Marauders made such a rule after leaving the school, or when they entered the Order. I agree with this. It could have been when all the Marauders decided to join the Order, they made a pact that they would always remain loyal to one another, and that anyone who did not would be killed, because being killed as a result of there being a betrayor is almost worse than being killed because Voldemort deemed you too great a threat. Therefore, having some kind of honor code would be like a pledge to be loyal to the friendship or suffer the fate a Death Eater deserves.

exiguusmus
April 10th, 2005, 5:29 pm
As for Peter trying to stir up ill will among the Marauders, well we have a canon example of that already, haven't we? When he's outed in the Shack in PoA, one of the first things he tries to do is bring up the lack of trust between Remus and Sirius and make them doubt each other again.
I don't know that his motive in this scene is so much to stir up ill will but fear and self-preservation.

I agree with the fact that Peter was probably very subtle in his sewing the seeds of mistrust between the Marauders, and indeed, I do picture Peterís whisperings to be insidious and cunning.

I take the point made elsewhere that before Lily and James's death he may have tried to create tension and unease between the other Marauders under the instruction and guidance of Lord Voldemort. It would have to have been done in such a way for Lupin & co not to see it for what it was and I don't believe that Peter would be capable of this without assistance. IMO even if James and Sirius reacted, Lupin as the calmer, more measured, of the Marauders would have seen through Peter's act had it not been pretty subtle, and Peter doesn't strike me as having been intelligent enough to be able to have managed this without help.

From the date of the Potter's death through to the near-end of PoA I think that the lack of trust between Lupin and Sirius stems from the fact that Lupin, like everyone else (bar Peter and Sirius), believed that Sirius had betrayed the Potters and killed Peter. IMO when Lupin discovered that Peter was still alive and that it was Peter, not Sirius, who had betrayed the Potters, that distrust of Sirius evaporated and instead all the distrust was placed on Peter. All of which IMO makes Peter's attempt to drive a wedge between them all the more pathetic and a gross misunderstanding of the characters of his former friends.

dsbs
April 10th, 2005, 5:39 pm
More probable would be if the Marauders made such a rule after leaving the school, or when they entered the Order.

Wow, that never even occured to me. However, although I think it's possible, I have a hard time believing that a group of people fighting against Voldemort and the Death Eaters, and led by Dumbledore himself, would resort to threatening the lives of their members. I mean, it's understandable, but it's kind of like the death penalty debate in a way. It's hypocritical to punish someone for murder by murdering them (IMO; I don't know if this is a discussion we can get onto here, and it IS just my opinion), and it seems to me to be hypocritical to stoop to the level of the very people the Order is trying to fight.

A spur of the moment decision made during high emotional distress and shock (not to mention the full moon and right after Azkhaban) to kill Peter would make more sense to me than a well thought-out, conscious agreement to murder anyone who, yes, betrays them.

Another thing is Sirius - I *think* it was he who said the Barty Crouch Sr.'s ways of dealing with captured Death Eaters were not looked on favourably by a lot of the wizarding population, and I think Sirius himself gave the impression that he was not fond of the idea either. He and Dumbledore looked with approval on Moody, who always tried not to kill the enemy, merely capture them.

So while what's right and what isn't in terms of murder, betrayal, and imprisonment is debatable, and it IS an interesting idea, I just can't see the Order making that sort of agreement.

RemusLupinFan
April 10th, 2005, 5:44 pm
Peter doesn't strike me as having been intelligent enough to be able to have managed this without help. I believe Peter is much more intelligent and cunning than he lets on. I think that part of his 'stupidity' is actually an act to make him less of a suspect. And it worked: Sirius says that he never believed that Voldemort would have use of a talentless thing like Pettigrew. I really doubt he had help- I think accomplished his goal just fine by himself. After all, he knew his friends better than anybody and I think he'd have been able to get them to suspect each other on his own. As for Remus not picking up on what Peter was doing- it's likely that he wasn't around half the time to really observe what Peter was doing. This in itself likely contributed to the reasons why Remus was a suspect.

dsbs- I agree, the idea of having such a code is a bit bothersome because of the point you mentioned about being hypocritical. Perhaps this code was more of an unwritten thing that Sirius and Remus developed when they were facing Peter in the Shrieking Shack? Although, Lupin does specifically say that Peter should know that if Voldemort didn't kill him, they would, so this does imply some sort of known code or plan that was developed in Peter's presence. I'm kind of conflicted about this whole thing; I'm not sure what to think. :shrug:

dsbs
April 10th, 2005, 5:51 pm
I see your point, but it just doesn't sit well with me, probably partially because of my views on the death penalty and such. I'll be fine with whatever JK writes it as, as long as she writes it well and believably and there's no reason to believe she wont :)

I always assumed, though, that Peter "should have known" out of, well, common sense, for lack of a better term. You know, I kind of imagine Remus and Sirius thinking "well what did you think we were going to do, Peter, throw you a party?" Am I being clear enough? I don't really know how to say this.

LinnendeBlack
April 10th, 2005, 5:53 pm
dsbs I think I understand what you're saying, but please elaborate, if you can :)

WoodenCoyote
April 10th, 2005, 5:54 pm
I don't know that his motive in this scene is so much to stir up ill will but fear and self-preservation.
And that wasn't his motive the first time he tried to split them up? He's trying to make them doubt each other again in order to save himself.

RemusLupinFan
April 10th, 2005, 5:57 pm
I always assumed, though, that Peter "should have known" out of, well, common sense, for lack of a better term. You know, I kind of imagine Remus and Sirius thinking "well what did you think we were going to do, Peter, throw you a party?" Am I being clear enough? I don't really know how to say this.:tu: I like that explanation even better. I understand what you're trying to say- it makes perfect sense. It's like saying, "If Voldemort doesn't kill you for being useless/for messing up, etc, we'd kill you so you'd be brought to justice and so that no one else would have to suffer at your hand."

dsbs
April 10th, 2005, 6:05 pm
I like that explanation even better. I understand what you're trying to say- it makes perfect sense. It's like saying, "If Voldemort doesn't kill you for being useless/for messing up, etc, we'd kill you so you'd be brought to justice and so that no one else would have to suffer at your hand."
Yes, exactly :) And Peter should have known, because he was there (ok, obviously), and he knew what was going on, and whether or not he was frightened, or thought it was fair, he should have known that Sirius would have known he did it; he should have known that once Lupin found out about the double betrayal he would have been furious; and whether or not he thought they would actually go so far as to kill him, he should have known (knowing what he knows about the situation, and knowing what they know about the situation) that nothing good was going to come out of that confrontation.

I should also add that I like the idea of them killing him to keep him from hurting anyone else, although I'm still not sure they were thikning clear-headedly enough at the time for such a rational reason.

I'm really not sure if I made that any clearer. Just read what RemusLupinFan wrote.

LinnendeBlack
April 10th, 2005, 6:07 pm
Yes, exactly :) And Peter should have known, because he was there (ok, obviously), and he knew what was going on, and whether or not he was frightened, or thought it was fair, he should have known that Sirius would have known he did it; he should have known that once Lupin found out about the double betrayal he would have been furious; and whether or not he thought they would actually go so far as to kill him, he should have known (knowing what he knows about the situation, and knowing what they know about the situation) that nothing good was going to come out of that confrontation.

I should also add that I like the idea of them killing him to keep him from hurting anyone else, although I'm still not sure they were thikning clear-headedly enough at the time for such a rational reason.

I'm really not sure if I made that any clearer. Just read what RemusLupinFan wrote.

That makes perfect sense now. :) And yes I agree with everything you said.

Elf
April 10th, 2005, 8:12 pm
original post by Tarantallegra
But then I wonder why was Peter put in Gryffendor? Bravery must have been the dominate triat. We do know he had to have some courage to join the Death Eaters, return to Voldemort, and betray the entire Order in the first place. Feeding ideas into Sirius's mind, if that was indeed the case, would have been quite slytherine-like, though.
Well, this is one of the big questions of the series really and a very good question. Peter's life isn't over (yet) so while I think he will still cause more destruction, there may also be a redeeming moment for him at the end of the story. I think the most common speculation is that he will commit a brave act in fulfilling his life debt to Harry.

original post by WoodenCoyote
As for Peter trying to stir up ill will among the Marauders, well we have a canon example of that already, haven't we? When he's outed in the Shack in PoA, one of the first things he tries to do is bring up the lack of trust between Remus and Sirius and make them doubt each other again.

And that wasn't his motive the first time he tried to split them up? He's trying to make them doubt each other again in order to save himself.
Very good point! Again this is reflected in his rat animagus form. He's small and sneaky and knows that if he can only distract the others by stirring up suspicions amongst them, he can scurry away and avoid the consequences of his actions.

On the topic of the honour code, I think the Marauders were more than just a group of friends. They were a brotherhood bound together by a very big secret--Remus' lycanthropy, and it is was out of support for him that they became animagi in the first place. They even did this illegally, which communicates that they were supposedly loyal to the point of being willing to get in trouble with the law for their love of Remus and each other. Peter violated this. In a group of friends that close the unspoken rule is "I've got your back", but instead Peter stabbed them in the back. And he used the very person that drew them together in the first place--Remus--as a means of breaking the bonds between them all.

strange magic
April 11th, 2005, 3:10 am
I believe that in order for Peter to redeem himself is to die for someone else, In all he has commited:
Murder (13 muggles, 3 people with Voldemorts wand)
Treachery
Conspiracy
and has done many more bad things.... so in order for him to be redeemed at all in my books is to die for Harry or Remus, even then I am still not sure

kitkat_17
April 11th, 2005, 4:29 am
hi! i'm a new member of this forum and this is my first post. i hope i'm not breaking any rules.

anyway, i really love Remus Lupin's character. he's a man who looks at things at the bright side. he doesn't have a happy childhood but it didn't make him look life in a bad way. :cool: :cool:

so for me, he's a model! a good role model1 :tu: :tu:

Scothoser
April 11th, 2005, 7:59 am
I agree that it doesn't make sense that Dumbledore's group would threaten death to anyone that would betray them. It doesn't match the ideal that he is trying to spread by fighting Voldemort. But it still begs the question, why didn't Remus talk Sirius into bringing Peter to justice, instead of just killing him? I don't agree that it was in the heat of anger, because of the time that they took to explain all aspects of his treachery. While they would definitely be upset, angry, and feeling betrayed, I don't think it would have been enough to justify the breaking of a strongly held belief of bringing in a criminal to justice. It took Harry to remind them of that.

At least that's what I thought.. Of course Sirius was already imprisoned for the crime, so assuming that the Wizarding world has a double jeparody clause, he wouldn't be imprisoned again for the same crime. So he feels justified in that murder. But why Remus? Here is where, perhaps, his feelings for Lily would come in (still defending it! ^_^). The death of someone that one loves very much, which for Remus would be basically like a family member since only family members would probably be that close to him, would have a prolonged impact. Perhaps that's why he was willing to kill Peter.

I know I'm fishing for reasons why Remus would be so willing to murder another with such a cold, calculating declaration as he did. There would have to bee some reason, and I don't want to believe that he is just easily incensed to violence (my own rose-colored glasses).

BTW..

Welcome KitKat_17! You are very welcome to participate. ^_^

Mcpherson
April 11th, 2005, 3:08 pm
I believe Peter is much more intelligent and cunning than he lets on. I think that part of his 'stupidity' is actually an act to make him less of a suspect. And it worked: Sirius says that he never believed that Voldemort would have use of a talentless thing like Pettigrew. I really doubt he had help- I think accomplished his goal just fine by himself. After all, he knew his friends better than anybody and I think he'd have been able to get them to suspect each other on his own. As for Remus not picking up on what Peter was doing- it's likely that he wasn't around half the time to really observe what Peter was doing. This in itself likely contributed to the reasons why Remus was a suspect.

I'm sure that Peter is far more intelligent and cunning than he lets on, as he managed to gain friendship of the rest of the Marauders first. They wouldn't tell him their secret and woudn't help him to become an animagus, if they didn't trust him and think he is 'worthy' of being with them all the time. Normally, when such a school gang has an admirer, it treats him worse than the rest of the students - laughts at him or even bullies him. But Peter somehow seemed in the eyes of the rest of the Marauders good enough to join them.

The other thing is that we don't know much about real Pettigrew. We saw him in Snape's Worst Memory where Peter seemed to be just a stupid admirer (cannot find a better word, sorry). But the problem is, we see him from Harry's perspective which is probably the same as Jame's was in his schooldays. This means that Harry naturally neglects Pettigrew and probably the rest of the Marauders too. So even if Peter changed, i.e. got wiser and more cunning with age, his friends didn't notice any difference. Thus they did not suspect him after leaving Hogwarts and joining the Order. Peter could have told any of the Marauders whatever (possibly clumsy and far-fetched) lie came into his mind and they would absent-mindedly believe it.

That was not strictly about Remus :blush: , but at least about the way he was suspected by his best friends...

Desraelda
April 11th, 2005, 3:30 pm
But why Remus? Here is where, perhaps, his feelings for Lily would come in (still defending it! ^_^).
That bridge scene in PoA, the movie, seems to have stirred up a lot of Remus loves Lily feeling, but of course, there's nothing in canon to support it. However, I have another view of the Remus/Lily relationship. And this is purely speculation.

Lily may or may not have known about Remus' lycanthropy, and I feel that whether or not she knew is irrelevant. What she did know is that Remus is James' quiet, bookish friends. Like us, she senses something trustworthy, compassionate and caring in Remus. She's naturally attracted to James, handsome (except for the hair), athletic, intelligent and he obviously likes her.

James also knows that Remus is trustworthy, compassionate and caring. He feels he can confide in Remus fully and completely in a way he can't confide in Sirius. Sirius may well tease James, and James doesn't need his very real feelings scoffed at.

Lily feels the same way about Remus as James does. She'll talk to him about James. "I really like James, but he's such a jerk sometimes. What do you think, Remus, what should I do? Should I go out with him and hope he'll grow up?"

James will also talk to Remus. "What can I do, Remus. I really like Lily, but I think she sees me as nothing but a jerk."

Remus is the go-between. I've been in relationships like that and I've seen other relationships like that. And I think that, other than his love for Lily as his best friends wife, is the extent of their relationship.

Happygirl
April 11th, 2005, 4:32 pm
I find it rather disturbing that Peter would spread mistrust with his friends... I believe it but it just shows you that you have to be careful with who you befriend... :scared: James, Sirius and Remus underestimated him, and it was shoved in their faces. I bet they wish they had a time-turner, and could do some changes...
I'm waiting as patiently as I can to find out what Remus does for the Order... I can't wait for the new book to come out!!!!
I want to thank you for welcoming to this thread! Is there any other threads that focus on Remus Lupin?

Mrs Flamel
April 11th, 2005, 8:10 pm
Whew! This thread is much too difficult to follow lightly when one is out of town! Why can't you all just slow down when I'm not here? Come on, people! :p

I'll just weigh in on some of the recent topics:

I believe that Remus and Sirius both were acting out of character in the shack. Earlier in the book, Remus questioned Harry's belief that Sirius derserved the Dementor's Kiss--and at the time, he thought Sirius had betrayed the Potters. Why would he feel differently about Peter? Also, as dsbs pointed out, Sirius seems critcal of Barty Crouch Sr.'s treatment of Death Eaters--he is less out of character for thinking differently about something so personal, but he seems to have a more peaceful attitude when he's not currently being provoked (we know how he is when he IS being provoked...) I think Remus needs to beunderstood in light of the fact that he normally would not approve of Peter being killed. It seems a stretch, but is it possible that not only was he emotional, but he wasn't thinking clearly and it didn't occur to him the bringing Peter back to the castle was an option? In that case, yes, I can see them thinking that Peter needed to be removed from the picture before he had any opportunity to do more damage to their world.

I do think he was very emotional in the scene. Some have said he had plenty of time to think about his actions and didn't outwardly seem upset. However, this was a huge event for him, and a few minutes wouldn't have been enough time to work out his feelings. Also, when he witnesses Sirius' death, he doesn't show much outward emotion--just a break in his voice revealed his distress.

Desraelda, though your suggestion about the Remus/Lily relationship is conjecture, I find it reasonable. As many of us have said before, Remus also may have turned to her after the Whomping Willow incident--a time when I'm sure he would have kept his distance from Sirius, and by extension, James. By this time, they were both prefects, so they may have been starting to get to know one another already. Again, this is conjecture.

Welcome to all the new people! I'm so very glad to see more new 'faces' in Remus discussion!

LinnendeBlack
April 11th, 2005, 9:31 pm
:welcome: kitkat_17! We all love Remus too. :D

At least that's what I thought.. Of course Sirius was already imprisoned for the crime, so assuming that the Wizarding world has a double jeparody clause, he wouldn't be imprisoned again for the same crime. So he feels justified in that murder.

Well technically Sirius had already been imprisoned for that crime because everyone thought that Peter was dead, and it was generally assumed that Sirius killed him. So if Sirius did murder him in the Shrieking Shack scene it wouldn't have made any difference really.

So he feels justified in that murder. But why Remus? Here is where, perhaps, his feelings for Lily would come in (still defending it! ^_^). The death of someone that one loves very much, which for Remus would be basically like a family member since only family members would probably be that close to him, would have a prolonged impact. Perhaps that's why he was willing to kill Peter.

I'm also a defender of the 'Remus had feelings for Lily' theory. I know a lot of people on here disagree, but at least there's you and me!
I do think that Remus was so enraged with Peter because of his betrayal of the ones that Remus loved dearly, and having the entire Wizarding world including him believing that it was Sirius, another one he loved dearly, who committed these crimes.

gottaloveLupin
April 11th, 2005, 10:28 pm
An explanation for Remus's behavior may be the fact that Jo needed Harry to save the rat's life. And in order to do that, she needed Remus and Sirius to be willing to kill Peter. Maybe not so much within Remus's character, but she needed things to go like this.

Maybe there isn't anything hidden here and everything is quite clear.

I also want to say, that not only remus behaved out of character in that scene, Hermione did too. She didn't saya word when Peter asked her to put a good word for him. And we all know that hermione is a merciful person, and we all know that she doesn't shut up when she disagrees with someone!

so, I think it's important that in that scene Hermione is willing to witness Peter's death, without interfereing. She doesn't think either that by killing Peter the turth will not come to light!

Desraelda
April 11th, 2005, 10:40 pm
so, I think it's important that in that scene Hermione is willing to witness Peter's death, without interfereing. She doesn't think either that by killing Peter the turth will not come to light!
But first she did play Devil's Advocate and ask all the important questions to determine which one was guilty, Sirius or Peter.

gottaloveLupin
April 11th, 2005, 10:44 pm
But first she did play Devil's Advocate and ask all the important questions to determine which one was guilty, Sirius or Peter.

You are right. But she was willing to see Peter getting killed. She lost her head too. She could have told Remus and Sirius that by killing Peter they won't uncover the truth and Sirius's name will not be cleaed, for example!

Remsy Luck
April 11th, 2005, 11:02 pm
Welcome to all the new people! :D



On the topic of the honour code, I think the Marauders were more than just a group of friends. They were a brotherhood bound together by a very big secret--Remus' lycanthropy, and it is was out of support for him that they became animagi in the first place. They even did this illegally, which communicates that they were supposedly loyal to the point of being willing to get in trouble with the law for their love of Remus and each other. Peter violated this. In a group of friends that close the unspoken rule is "I've got your back", but instead Peter stabbed them in the back. And he used the very person that drew them together in the first place--Remus--as a means of breaking the bonds between them all.
Couldn't have said it better.
And it goes with the fact that Peter had to have some kind of ability and intelligence to join their group to begin with.
We've seen a glimpse of what Sirius and James were like at 15, how harsh they can be, even if to them is just joking.
It surprise me people think that these same two would accept a talentless/stupid boy as part of their inner-secret group, if he were truly stupid or talentless.
They trusted him with their life back at 15, by sharing with him the Animagus' 'secret'. Remus' life could be at stack if anything got out about it too.

That's why betraying those same friends, and in such an horrible way (selling the life of 2 of them + that of their innocent child, getting another to Azkaban for life, leaving the last one completely alone and unprotected) must have pushed them to feel such a degree of hurt and anger that could justify in their mind an murder.

Scothoser
April 11th, 2005, 11:10 pm
An explanation for Remus's behavior may be the fact that Jo needed Harry to save the rat's life. And in order to do that, she needed Remus and Sirius to be willing to kill Peter. Maybe not so much within Remus's character, but she needed things to go like this.

Maybe there isn't anything hidden here and everything is quite clear.

I also want to say, that not only remus behaved out of character in that scene, Hermione did too. She didn't saya word when Peter asked her to put a good word for him. And we all know that hermione is a merciful person, and we all know that she doesn't shut up when she disagrees with someone!

so, I think it's important that in that scene Hermione is willing to witness Peter's death, without interfereing. She doesn't think either that by killing Peter the turth will not come to light!


Okay, now you are just being too logical! :lol:

I agree, it could have simply been an out of character moment to set up a future event where Peter will be in debt to Harry. It's just so frustrating when it seems to set up, that you want to find another answer for it.

The same for Hermione. Granted, she would have been in shock at Peter's initial disclosure of his guilt, as the other two were, and wouldn't have had much of a presence of mind to stop anything. But she could have reacted at the same time as Harry.. But that's another thread. ^_^

I do think that Remus was so enraged with Peter because of his betrayal of the ones that Remus loved dearly, and having the entire Wizarding world including him believing that it was Sirius, another one he loved dearly, who committed these crimes.

That seems to be the best explanation as far as Lupin's reaction that night, in such a cold and calculating way. He had strong feelings for both James and Lily I'm sure, but it would make sense that he had a more emotional tie to Lily than James. With both their deaths, and then the agony of thinking that it was his own neglect of informing Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagus, I think that he had made up his mind before he came down to the shack what he was going to do. He just had to know why.

I also want to go on record by saying that I don't necessarily think that the relationship between Remus and Lily was a dating one.. it could have been completely platonic. He probably felt that because she was there for him when no one else was, that he could always trust her.

Remus probably knew that, being a werewolf, he wouldn't be able to have a relationship with anyone for long before they were turned off by his monthly transformation. Instead, he let himself get close to someone that was willing to offer him some kindness. I see it as the relationship between Harry and Hermione (Yes, I think Ron and Hermione are the couple, not Harry and Hermione ^_^). They are very close friends, but that's it.

hobbitseeker
April 11th, 2005, 11:57 pm
Hi everyone! I'm busy moving this week so I'm way behind in posting...but I did finish the backreading finally! :)

An explanation for Remus's behavior may be the fact that Jo needed Harry to save the rat's life. And in order to do that, she needed Remus and Sirius to be willing to kill Peter. Maybe not so much within Remus's character, but she needed things to go like this.

Maybe there isn't anything hidden here and everything is quite clear.

I also want to say, that not only remus behaved out of character in that scene, Hermione did too. She didn't saya word when Peter asked her to put a good word for him. And we all know that hermione is a merciful person, and we all know that she doesn't shut up when she disagrees with someone!

so, I think it's important that in that scene Hermione is willing to witness Peter's death, without interfereing. She doesn't think either that by killing Peter the turth will not come to light!

I think you bring up an excellent point about Hermione. Everyone was on edge during that scene, and the fact that she didn't speak up about Peter being killed speaks volumes as to everyone's emotions in the Shack. I think once Peter was actually changed back into his human self a lot of the people present in the Shack were shocked. It's one thing to talk about a murderous traitor, but then to see him with your own eyes saying he had no choice but to become a traitor would be unnerving for anyone. I think that's why it is so important and impressive that Harry was able to calm himself enough to realize that his father wouldn't have wanted his two best friends to become murderers for his sake (and I also believe this speaks to the Marauders *not* having some sort of oath to kill one of their members if something like this happened, since neither Remus nor Sirius contradicted what Harry said). I agree this was definitely a plot device that JKR used, but I personally did not have a problem with it as I was reading book. Like I said before, Peter deserves to die, but it may be that the mercy of Harry during that scene changes the entire course of the war.

MaggieMay
April 12th, 2005, 12:12 am
[QUOTE=Scothoser]That seems to be the best explanation as far as Lupin's reaction that night, in such a cold and calculating way. He had strong feelings for both James and Lily I'm sure, but it would make sense that he had a more emotional tie to Lily than James.

...

I also want to go on record by saying that I don't necessarily think that the relationship between Remus and Lily was a dating one.. it could have been completely platonic. He probably felt that because she was there for him when no one else was, that he could always trust her.[QUOTE]


I'm not sure I agree with this...I don't see why Remus would need to have stronger feelings than his brotherhood/friendship with James in order to be angry enough to want to see Peter killed for murdering the man. We've already seen how much it meant/means to Remus that the other Marauders were willing to become animagi for him. He himself admitted to being so desperate for friendship that he was more than willing to overlook and excuse their misbehaviour and faults in order to remain in their good graces. Even when he was uncomfortable with their actions, the Marauders seem to have been his life as a child, and teen. For once, he was accepted, welcomed, respected, wanted...that must have meant everything to him.

I think a friendship that lasted over seven years, and through so many secrets, escapades, and nightmares (I doubt Lupin's lycanthropy can be described as anything less than a hellish nightmare, and the same goes for the Whomping Willow Incident) had to have been one incredibly strong friendship...kind of like a 'We're Marauders - that's closer than brothers' type sentiment. Or rather, a friendship that called on/created loyalty deeper than mere sentiment. I have no doubt that, that October, when Remus thought Sirius had betrayed them all, he was absolutely crushed. Even if it hadn't resulted in the deaths of James and Lily, I imagine he would've been inconsolable. Whatever the bond between the Marauders was, I don't think James, Remus, or Sirius ever imagined that it could be broken. The fact that Sirius' (supposed) betrayal culminated in the deaths of another Marauder and his wife...that must've been practically too much to bear.

I mean, when introducing first years to the four houses in Hogwarts, McGonagall makes the comment that "The Sorting is a very important ceremony because, while you are here, your House will be something like your family within Hogwarts" (SS, pg 142, The Sorting Hat). If the Houses are something like families for their students, how much closer must the Marauders have been? Betrayal from one of their own must have been inconceivable while they were still in school.

Again, I do think that Remus and Lily probably had a nice, warm, mild friendship before graduation. They were Gryffindor prefects together, and I think Remus's personality probably appealed to Lily more than James's. If her main problems with James were his arrogance and cruelty, there seems to be very little for her to have objected to in regards to Remus. However, I don't think their friendship was anything other than platonic. I do agree that Remus seems to be the kind of guy who would forego any kind of love relationship because of his illness, because he probably doesn't see the possibility for any kind of future for himself.

It's one thing to say that perhaps Lupin had a small unrequited crush in Lily Evans, or vice versa. It's quite another thing to say that the best explanation for his anger and actions in the Shrieking Shack is that he was in love with Lily Potter. That lowers the bond he had with Sirius, with Peter, and with James. It lowers the friendship and brotherhood between the Marauders, the sacrifices they made for each other, and the times they were there for each other. Remus says that thanks to the Marauders, his days at Hogwarts were some of the best days of his life. That's not something he'd say lightly, and I have no doubt he meant it completely. Why then, is it so hard to believe he'd want revenge on the one who destroyed it all?

Wanting revenge is a very human desire, and Lupin is nothing if not human. Throughout the series, Rowling has painted him a very sympathetic, and human picture, perhaps all the more so because of his lycanthropy. He's an admirable man. He has flaws: his reluctance to bring any of his friends to task because he needs them so badly is obviously one of these. I think perhaps that his desire for vengeance, which clearly got the better of him that night, is another example. He didn't think things through, not his actions, at least. Seeing Peter, after twelve years of believing him dead, coming to the realisation that Sirius had been innocent after all...who wouldn't be mad enough to want to kill after that? Peter is directly responsible for James and Lily's deaths. He's also responsible for the deaths of other wizards and muggles, as well as Sirius's imprisonment, and (likely) the suspicion Lupin's friends felt for him as well. If that isn't enough cause for his actions that night, I don't know what is. Even a tragic love story isn't a better reason, to my thinking.

Whew...okay, that was slightly long, and not particularly eloquent, but I can't really think of any other way to explain what I think. I would just think that having to stand in that shack, with a man he had given up on, recounting and reliving memories of events that he wants nothing more than to forget - and to the son of a man he loved so dearly...I don't see how anyone could be expected to remain rational through that. And I don't think that a romantic love for Lily had anything to do with it.

Spiegelwolf
April 12th, 2005, 5:13 am
I think the reason Harry can tell Lupin things he wouldn't tell Dumbledore has to do with their relative positions in Hogwarts. In PoA when Harry tells Lupin of his fears he didn't know the exact extent of his friendship with James, so that can't have been an issue there. A teacher is always a less remote figure to a student than a principal, no matter how kindly he may be. And for all his kindliness, Dumbledore, has a reputation bound to inspire a certain amount of awe. Lupin is also closer in age, not a venerable old wizard but a man of his father's generation. From the moment one first encounters Lupin on the Hogwarts Express there is an air of vulnerability about him that is never quite dispelled despite the fact that he demonstrates his competence as a wizard time and time again. Harry doesn't know at this stage about Lupin's secret but I think he senses some hurt in Lupin's life and at the same time knows Lupin is no fool; so it's not surprising that a boy like Harry, with his own wounds, would open up to another he feel would be empathetic.

gottaloveLupin
April 12th, 2005, 9:38 am
by Scothoser Okay, now you are just being too logical!

I agree, it could have simply been an out of character moment to set up a future event where Peter will be in debt to Harry. It's just so frustrating when it seems to set up, that you want to find another answer for it.

The same for Hermione. Granted, she would have been in shock at Peter's initial disclosure of his guilt, as the other two were, and wouldn't have had much of a presence of mind to stop anything. But she could have reacted at the same time as Harry.. But that's another thread. ^_^

:p Thank you!

what it is really frustrating is that we might never find out some explanations. Jo said that when the books are finished we will have all the necessary information. But we, fans, are pretty crazy! We need to know everything.

It would be nice if after the books are finished Jo will just answer questions and more questions. Especially about the characters and their behavior and why she chose to make the characters act in a way and not in another, and why did the characters said that and not the other etc.

But the problem is, seeing how few people ask about Remus, that she may not answer all our questions about Remus. So we may never know why exactly was Remus willing to kill Peter in th Shack.

by Scothoser That seems to be the best explanation as far as Lupin's reaction that night, in such a cold and calculating way. He had strong feelings for both James and Lily I'm sure, but it would make sense that he had a more emotional tie to Lily than James. With both their deaths, and then the agony of thinking that it was his own neglect of informing Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagus, I think that he had made up his mind before he came down to the shack what he was going to do. He just had to know why.

I also want to go on record by saying that I don't necessarily think that the relationship between Remus and Lily was a dating one.. it could have been completely platonic. He probably felt that because she was there for him when no one else was, that he could always trust her.

Remus probably knew that, being a werewolf, he wouldn't be able to have a relationship with anyone for long before they were turned off by his monthly transformation. Instead, he let himself get close to someone that was willing to offer him some kindness. I see it as the relationship between Harry and Hermione (Yes, I think Ron and Hermione are the couple, not Harry and Hermione ^_^). They are very close friends, but that's it.

I don't think that Remus made up his mind about what to do before reaching the Shack. I think that he saw Sirius's name on the map and he thought: The kids are in danger! I must hurry up and save them! I don't think that he said: I must kill Sirius and revenge James and Lily! I think his main thought was to defend and protect the kids!

And then he saw Peter's name on the map and he was like: What? Peter is dead! The map must be tellings lies! But then the map never lies! Peter must be alive! And he ran! And while running he thought: How come that Peter is alive? where has he been all this time? Why did he hide? He was afraid that Sirius might kill him? But then why didn't he try to contact me or Dd after Sirius was imprisoned? And if Peter is alive then who did Sirius kill? etc. I think that he didn't even aknowledge that Peter was the traitor until he reached the Shack. He just knew that something was fishy and this is why he stopped Harry from killing Sirius. And then he saw Sirius, and he may have read his mind and he finally saw the truth!

It is in the Shack that he finally realized that peter had been the Secret keeper and that Peter was the traitor! And once he realized that, there were too many things to take care off: to tell the kids the truth and convince them that he was a friend, not an enemy, to understand himself what had happened etc. I don't think he had time to think what to do and what it meant that Peter was alive and a traitor and that Sirius was innocent.

about Lily, I really think that she and Remus were really good friends! It is quite a small world and it is impossible for them not to interact, especially as they were in the same house! And once they interacted, it is impossible for Lily not to like Remus! Remus was calm and gentle and caring! He was smart and he wanted to have good marks. He treated everyone with respect and he was more mature in some respects than other people his age, so lily could talk to him about different things. He was also a half-blood, so he had connections with both the muggle world and the wizarding world, and therefore was able to help Lily with adapting!

He probably liked reading books and he was just a trustworthy guy, though a little misterious! I really think that they were good friends, though they might have argued a little about James and Sirius. Liily probably didn't understand why Remus was so loyal to them and protected them and let them be how they were; and was just being their friend!

hel101
April 12th, 2005, 10:14 am
by gottlovelupin
It would be nice if after the books are finished Jo will just ansewr questions and more questions. Especially about the characters and their behavior and why she chose to make the characters act in a way and not in another, and why did the characters said that and not the other etc.

I totally agree, but u never know, remember that, by the time the books are finished, Jo would have been working on them for at least 15yrs! If i were her, i would be absolutly and totally sick of HP by then. But this, by no means, will stop me pestering her with emails with questions about the characters on them. and i will not stop until i have found out every little detail of hp as i possibly can. Already my friends think i nuts when i pull out this little scrap of information that wasn't in the books, but they're not as obsessed as me. :):):):

Remsy Luck
April 12th, 2005, 11:39 pm
That seems to be the best explanation as far as Lupin's reaction that night, in such a cold and calculating way. He had strong feelings for both James and Lily I'm sure, but it would make sense that he had a more emotional tie to Lily than James.
I too have to disagree with this statement.
Maybe you just worded it wrong, but it is how MaggieMay said, it's saying that his friendship with James wasn't strong enough for him to be angered by his death, or Sirius' for the matter.





It's one thing to say that perhaps Lupin had a small unrequited crush in Lily Evans, or vice versa. It's quite another thing to say that the best explanation for his anger and actions in the Shrieking Shack is that he was in love with Lily Potter. That lowers the bond he had with Sirius, with Peter, and with James. It lowers the friendship and brotherhood between the Marauders, the sacrifices they made for each other, and the times they were there for each other. Remus says that thanks to the Marauders, his days at Hogwarts were some of the best days of his life. That's not something he'd say lightly, and I have no doubt he meant it completely. Why then, is it so hard to believe he'd want revenge on the one who destroyed it all?


I wholeheartely agree with this. You summed it up perfectly.
:tu:

Scothoser
April 13th, 2005, 2:15 am
I'm not sure I agree with this...I don't see why Remus would need to have stronger feelings than his brotherhood/friendship with James in order to be angry enough to want to see Peter killed for murdering the man. We've already seen how much it meant/means to Remus that the other Marauders were willing to become animagi for him. He himself admitted to being so desperate for friendship that he was more than willing to overlook and excuse their misbehaviour and faults in order to remain in their good graces. Even when he was uncomfortable with their actions, the Marauders seem to have been his life as a child, and teen. For once, he was accepted, welcomed, respected, wanted...that must have meant everything to him.
I would have put in the rest of the quote, but there was a lot to add. ^_^

I agree that the pain of losing a friend that was very much a brother would be enough to react. But I think that losing someone that appears to be a confidant, like Lily (again, I'm relying on the Movie for this one) would have been the straw that broke the camel's back. My argument here is that, most likely, Lily was as close to a girlfriend as he had, and he probably had been able to share more personal and private concerns with Lily than he could with "The Gang". Guys do not like sharing feelings with other guys, so I think that there were some personal frustrations that Remus may have felt that he could only share with Lily.

But you are right, it's just one of several reasons why Remus would want to kill Peter. Just because he was willing to kill Peter doesn't mean that he had a strong relationship with Lily, or that it was any stronger than his relationship with James. I guess I was just fishing for a reason that would be morally satsfying, as opposed to simple revenge. But then, for whatever reason, the important thing is that the danger was real and Harry saved Peter.

I don't think that Remus made up his mind about what to do before reaching the Shack. I think that he saw Sirius's name on the map and he thought: The kids are in danger! I must hurry up and save them! I don't think that he said: I must kill Sirius and revenge James and Lily! I think his main thought was to defend and protect the kids!

And then he saw Peter's name on the map and he was like: What? Peter is dead! The map must be tellings lies! But then the map never lies! Peter must be alive! And he ran! And while running he thought: How come that Peter is alive? where has he been all this time? Why did he hide? He was afraid that Sirius might kill him? But then why didn't he try to contact me or Dd after Sirius was imprisoned? And if Peter is alive then who did Sirius kill? etc. I think that he didn't even aknowledge that Peter was the traitor until he reached the Shack. He just knew that something was fishy and this is why he stopped Harry from killing Sirius. And then he saw Sirius, and he may have read his mind and he finally saw the truth!

It is in the Shack that he finally realized that peter had been the Secret keeper and that Peter was the traitor!

That is true, and goes to the point that Lupin had plenty of time to think things through before he decided to kill Peter for his betrayal. And your thought process also makes sense, and I'm sure he went through it. I should have gone through PoA earlier, because he doesn't make the realization until he reaches the Shack. That's when he finally understood that Peter switched places with Sirus. Thanks for pointing it out! ^_^

about Lily, I really think that she and Remus were really good friends! It is quite a small world and it is impossible for them not to interact, especially as they were in the same house! And once they interacted, it is impossible for Lily not to like Remus! Remus was calm and gentle and caring! He was smart and he wanted to have good marks. He treated everyone with respect and he was more mature in some respects than other people his age, so lily could talk to him about different things. He was also a half-blood, so he had connections with both the muggle world and the wizarding world, and therefore was able to help Lily with adapting!

He probably liked reading books and he was just a trustworthy guy, though a little misterious! I really think that they were good friends, though they might have argued a little about James and Sirius. Liily probably didn't understand why Remus was so loyal to them and protected them and let them be how they were; and was just being their friend!
That definitely sounds like a relationship that he would have had with Lily. I also think that they were such good friends that he was able to voice a lot of his feelings (again with the Movie scene ^_^). I just keep thinking of David Thewlis talking about Lily being there when no one else was. The first question I had was, how would that be possible? He had the Marauders, didn't he? But then, being a guy, I can understand his position. Guys do not share feelings with other guys. Look at how hard it is for Harry and Ron to admit to each other that they miss each other in GoF?

My theory is that Lily allowed for an emotional connection with Lily that could only happen between a guy and a girl that were friends. She probably had heard a lot of his frustrations about being what he was, knowing the life that he was likely to lead after graduation. She was kind, sympathetic, and willing to give him encouragement. She was probably as close to a sister as he every had (assuming he was the only child, of course).

RemusLupinFan
April 13th, 2005, 2:51 am
Yikes, lots of backreading for me to do!
Remus is the go-between.I think this is very true, and the scenario you suggested does seem plausible to me. This fits with the idea that Remus is a peacemaker who tries to avoid conflict as much as possible. I think ďgo-betweenĒ does describe him well in general.

Is there any other threads that focus on Remus Lupin?If you run a quick search (http://www.cosforums.com/search.php?), I think youíll find there are quite a few threads on Remus. :agree:

I also want to go on record by saying that I don't necessarily think that the relationship between Remus and Lily was a dating one.. it could have been completely platonic. He probably felt that because she was there for him when no one else was, that he could always trust her.I definitely agree with that. :tu: In a way, it makes more sense to say that they were very good friends, because I donít believe they would ever have had a romantic relationship.

It's quite another thing to say that the best explanation for his anger and actions in the Shrieking Shack is that he was in love with Lily Potter. That lowers the bond he had with Sirius, with Peter, and with James. It lowers the friendship and brotherhood between the Marauders, the sacrifices they made for each other, and the times they were there for each other.:tu: I agree completely.

The first question I had was, how would that be possible? He had the Marauders, didn't he?I've always thought that the time where no one else was there for Lupin might have surrounded the events of the Whomping Willow incident. At this point, I imagine this would have been a pretty low point for Lupin. I think he would have been pretty down on himself for what he could have done, even though it wasn't his fault. Also, I think he'd have felt betrayed by what Sirius did. Thus, this might have been a time when things were a little tense between his friends. After all, we really don't know too much about how this incident went down. Therefore, at this time, I think it's possible that Lily could have been there for Remus to tell him that it wasn't his fault and not to feel guilty. She might have also helped him reconcile any feelings he had against Sirius. In any case, I don't take Lupin's words in that scene as evidence for Lupin and Lily having a relationship- I just see it as one good friend helping another in a time of need.

hobbitseeker
April 13th, 2005, 5:09 am
I've always thought that the time where no one else was there for Lupin might have surrounded the events of the Whomping Willow incident. At this point, I imagine this would have been a pretty low point for Lupin. I think he would have been pretty down on himself for what he could have done, even though it wasn't his fault. Also, I think he'd have felt betrayed by what Sirius did. Thus, this might have been a time when things were a little tense between his friends. After all, we really don't know too much about how this incident went down. Therefore, at this time, I think it's possible that Lily could have been there for Remus to tell him that it wasn't his fault and not to feel guilty. She might have also helped him reconcile any feelings he had against Sirius. In any case, I don't take Lupin's words in that scene as evidence for Lupin and Lily having a relationship- I just see it as one good friend helping another in a time of need.

I really like your idea :tu:

Along those same lines, I've also had the idea that perhaps Lily was friends with Remus before he became friends with the Marauders. I would find it quite touching if Lily "was there for him" because of Remus' difficulties opening up to others or making friends. It must have been hard coming to school as a werewolf--most likely the first one to do so, seeing as there was no Whomping Willow before Remus went to Hogwarts--and then having to try to fit in with peers while hiding such a huge secret from everyone for fear of discrimination and rejection. I think perhaps Lily could have figured out that Remus was a werewolf and helped him realize that he can still having meaningful friendships and relationships in spite of his lycanthropy. Of course, this is all pure conjecture, but it would be sweet if it were true. From what we've seen of Lily sticking up for Snape when no one else would, helping Remus would seem to fit with her character.

And CONGRATULATIONS on becoming a Prefect RemusLupinFan!!!!! Your posts are always so well thought out, and you are always so friendly, respectful and helpful! You definitely deserve to be a Prefect! :) :clap:

Remsy Luck
April 13th, 2005, 9:47 am
Oh My, CONGRATS RemusLupinFan!!
Perfect title for someone who makes such valid argument, that always add something precious to this thread, and in such a polite, respectful way :D

Now we'll have to to bow at your passage and wash our mouth before addressing you! :p
J/K

Congratulations again!

MaggieMay
April 13th, 2005, 10:21 am
Just wanted to add my congratulations, RemusLupinFan, on becoming a Prefect - that's awesome!

Also, I do agree that it is very likely Remus and Lily were friends while at Hogwarts, and I didn't mean to imply I thought they never interacted or spoke until she started dating James. Actually, the various scenarios proposed by RemusLupinFan, hobbitseeker, and Scothoser sound perfectly logical and probable to me. I can see him taking comfort in their friendship

a) before he became good friends with James, Sirius, and Peter

b) after the whomping willow incident

c) and just in general, because they were both wonderful people, and definitely were exposed to each other, being in the same house in the same year, and in the same classes for much of the time

Although, I haven't seen the movie in a while, so I don't really remember what Lupin says about Lily then...

Desraelda
April 13th, 2005, 2:09 pm
I think perhaps Lily could have figured out that Remus was a werewolf and helped him realize that he can still having meaningful friendships and relationships in spite of his lycanthropy. Of course, this is all pure conjecture, but it would be sweet if it were true. From what we've seen of Lily sticking up for Snape when no one else would, helping Remus would seem to fit with her character.
I wouldn't be surprised if Lily did figure out Remus' secret. As a matter of fact, I'm surprised more people didn't figure it out, especially his roomies. Which leads me to believe that Sirius and James (okay, and let's include Peter) were in the same room with Remus like Harry with Ron, etc.

Remus disappeared from classes and meals once a month, and not just for one day, but perhaps two or three. The students are also studying astronomy, which would include the phases of the moon. I can't believe that no one else figured it out.

And CONGRATULATIONS on becoming a Prefect RemusLupinFan!!!!! Your posts are always so well thought out, and you are always so friendly, respectful and helpful! You definitely deserve to be a Prefect! :)
And thanks for pointing that out, so I can add my congratulations, also.

gottaloveLupin
April 13th, 2005, 3:23 pm
Congratulations RemusLupinFan!

RemusLupinFan
April 13th, 2005, 4:43 pm
From what we've seen of Lily sticking up for Snape when no one else would, helping Remus would seem to fit with her character.That is certainly very true. Also, being a bit of a misfit herself as a muggleborn, I think Lily would have been a very tolerant person in general. Thus, it does make a lot of sense that she might have been the only one Lupin could confide in about his lycanthropy very early on. Iím sure Lupin and Lily were probably very good friends during their time at Hogwarts, and I think they had a lot in common.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lily did figure out Remus' secret. As a matter of fact, I'm surprised more people didn't figure it out, especially his roomies. Which leads me to believe that Sirius and James (okay, and let's include Peter) were in the same room with Remus like Harry with Ron, etc.

Remus disappeared from classes and meals once a month, and not just for one day, but perhaps two or three. The students are also studying astronomy, which would include the phases of the moon. I can't believe that no one else figured it out.Iíve also envisioned Remus to have shared a room with Sirius, James and Peter. I think that might have been part of the reason they figured out the truth while no one else did. Since they were his friends, I think theyíd pay more attention to Remusís whereabouts than the other students. Thatís a good point about studying astronomy, but I think most students probably just didnít make the connection between the full moon and Lupinís absences. Also, since Remus is very good at not drawing attention to himself, this may be another reason why only his friends were able to work out the truth.

Also, thanks everyone for the congrats! :cool:

Mrs Flamel
April 13th, 2005, 6:37 pm
That's why betraying those same friends, and in such an horrible way (selling the life of 2 of them + that of their innocent child, getting another to Azkaban for life, leaving the last one completely alone and unprotected) must have pushed them to feel such a degree of hurt and anger that could justify in their mind an murder.I don't think anyone would disagree with this--yes, Remus had plenty of reason to be quite upset with Peter! Most of us would probably also go into a murderous rage, too.

But here: 'selling the life of 2 of them + that of their innocent child, getting another to Azkaban for life, leaving the last one completely alone and unprotected'

Peter did all those things, true. But Sirius also (supposedly) did all but one of them. And Remus earlier defended Sirius' right to 'live' (i.e. not get a Dementor's kiss). So, why the sudden change of value for Peter? Yes, it was a shock to relaize that Sirius wasn't guilty and Peter was... but Remus had already dealt with much of the issues that the batrayal had caused.

I think the primary difference is that (though really innocent) Sirius had been caught and had begun to pay for the crime. Peter, however had not. Unless you count living as Percy's and Ron's rat for twelve years adequate punishment, which is debateable... :p


But then, being a guy, I can understand his position. Guys do not share feelings with other guys. Look at how hard it is for Harry and Ron to admit to each other that they miss each other in GoF?

My theory is that Lily allowed for an emotional connection with Lily that could only happen between a guy and a girl that were friends. She probably had heard a lot of his frustrations about being what he was, knowing the life that he was likely to lead after graduation. She was kind, sympathetic, and willing to give him encouragement. She was probably as close to a sister as he every had (assuming he was the only child, of course).
I will disagree that the movie quote is enough to base a theory on, however, along with some of the other descriptions of a hypothetical 'relationship' between Lily and Remus, I think you make an excellent point here. I mean, would you really want to spill your heart to James or Sirius? Would you expect them to sit still long enough? It's hard to say whether anyone would have felt that way about Pteer, but I can see Remus feeling more comfortable talking about such things with Lily. Again, they were both prefects (at least she seems to have been), giving them an opportunity to know one another separately. I don't see canon evidence for such a friendship, but it's easy to imagine how and why one might have arisen.

I, of course, second RLFan's suggestion (again!) that the Whomping Willow incident drove Remus away from the marauders, at least temporarily.

headlessnick
April 13th, 2005, 6:48 pm
Peter did all those things, true. But Sirius also (supposedly) did all but one of them. And Remus earlier defended Sirius' right to 'live' (i.e. not get a Dementor's kiss). So, why the sudden change of value for Peter? Yes, it was a shock to relaize that Sirius wasn't guilty and Peter was... but Remus had already dealt with much of the issues that the batrayal had caused.

I think Remus wouldn't have allowed Dementor's Kiss on Peter too.
From the discussion he had with Harry about the Dementor's Kiss I think Remus is against giving anybody Dementor's Kiss. Remus hates Dementors just like Dumbledore does.

LinnendeBlack
April 13th, 2005, 8:56 pm
And Remus earlier defended Sirius' right to 'live' (i.e. not get a Dementor's kiss). So, why the sudden change of value for Peter?

I have begun to think that through the years, Remus had been thinking long and hard about the subject, and maybe thought about the concept that Sirius was in fact innocent. I think that it might have crossed his mind once or twice, but then he quickly dismissed it as nonsense because he had "proof" that Sirius was guilty. It wasn't until the Shrieking Shack scene when he put 2 and 2 together and finally realised that Sirius was innocent all along. And also like you said, Sirius was being punished for what he did, Peter however had gotten away with it.
And Peter was trying to shift the blame to the other 2 Marauders in that scene and try and get the trio to feel sorry for him. Another reason why Remus wished him dead even more.
I also think that Remus would not wish anyone to get a Dementor's kiss.

And once again I give my congrats to RemusLupinFan!!!

Mrs Flamel
April 13th, 2005, 9:36 pm
I think Remus wouldn't have allowed Dementor's Kiss on Peter too.
From the discussion he had with Harry about the Dementor's Kiss I think Remus is against giving anybody Dementor's Kiss. Remus hates Dementors just like Dumbledore does.
But he was willing to kill Peter. Now, I know they say a dementor's kiss is worse than death, but how different is it really? It is still a choice to end a person's life, effectively. So, I would disagree: if Remus was willing to kill Peter, he was also cool with Peter getting the kiss. (And He had no objection at all when Harry said that would be Peter's fate)

Which he didn't want for Sirius.

I think that it might have crossed his mind once or twice, but then he quickly dismissed it as nonsense because he had "proof" that Sirius was guilty.This is a possibility to mull over. It could be, but other than this discrepancy between his ideas toward Sirius' and Peter's fates, I don't know of any evidence for it. It is possible, though.

gottaloveLupin
April 13th, 2005, 10:38 pm
by hobbitseeker Along those same lines, I've also had the idea that perhaps Lily was friends with Remus before he became friends with the Marauders. I would find it quite touching if Lily "was there for him" because of Remus' difficulties opening up to others or making friends. It must have been hard coming to school as a werewolf--most likely the first one to do so, seeing as there was no Whomping Willow before Remus went to Hogwarts--and then having to try to fit in with peers while hiding such a huge secret from everyone for fear of discrimination and rejection. I think perhaps Lily could have figured out that Remus was a werewolf and helped him realize that he can still having meaningful friendships and relationships in spite of his lycanthropy. Of course, this is all pure conjecture, but it would be sweet if it were true. From what we've seen of Lily sticking up for Snape when no one else would, helping Remus would seem to fit with her character.

Yes, it is sweet. But I want to believe that Remus befriended James and Sirius first. Moreover, I want to believe that they were the first ones to find about his conditions and the first ones who offered him understanding and support!

It is nice to think that Lili helped Remus cope with his condition, but for me it is even nicer to think that James and Sirius who were, after all, a little arrogant, self-confident, and probably a little prejudiced, as they came from pure blood families, accepted and cared so much for Remus, a half-blood and a werewolf!

Actually I agree that Lily found out about Remus's condition, but I think it was during their fifth year when Remus had to skip some of his prefect duties. Lily must have noticed that and seeing what a smart girl she was, she probably figured it out!

by RemusLupinFan-The prefect I've always thought that the time where no one else was there for Lupin might have surrounded the events of the Whomping Willow incident. At this point, I imagine this would have been a pretty low point for Lupin. I think he would have been pretty down on himself for what he could have done, even though it wasn't his fault. Also, I think he'd have felt betrayed by what Sirius did. Thus, this might have been a time when things were a little tense between his friends. After all, we really don't know too much about how this incident went down. Therefore, at this time, I think it's possible that Lily could have been there for Remus to tell him that it wasn't his fault and not to feel guilty. She might have also helped him reconcile any feelings he had against Sirius. In any case, I don't take Lupin's words in that scene as evidence for Lupin and Lily having a relationship- I just see it as one good friend helping another in a time of need.

It is very possible. I think that the WW incident created a lot of problems between Sirius and Remus. However, I think that the incident might have made James and Remus's friendship stronger! The WW incident is the moment when James started to mature, I feel. The moment where James started to be more like Remus. I believe that James was not so reckless like Sirius was! Sirius was a little damaged by his family even then. he had a restlessness in him and a little of anger which consumed him. he rebelled against his family and against all the world. James was much calmer, if you wish. He was in-between the calm and gentle Remus and the reckless and impulsive Sirius. once he saw what Sirius was about to do James started to grow up and thus he got much closer to remus. Of course, Sirius remained James's brother. This is what I feel.

so maybe the WW incident didn't create a barrier between Remus and the rest of the marauders and created a barrier only between Remus and Sirius, for a while!

by Spiegewolf I think the reason Harry can tell Lupin things he wouldn't tell Dumbledore has to do with their relative positions in Hogwarts. In PoA when Harry tells Lupin of his fears he didn't know the exact extent of his friendship with James, so that can't have been an issue there. A teacher is always a less remote figure to a student than a principal, no matter how kindly he may be. And for all his kindliness, Dumbledore, has a reputation bound to inspire a certain amount of awe. Lupin is also closer in age, not a venerable old wizard but a man of his father's generation. From the moment one first encounters Lupin on the Hogwarts Express there is an air of vulnerability about him that is never quite dispelled despite the fact that he demonstrates his competence as a wizard time and time again. Harry doesn't know at this stage about Lupin's secret but I think he senses some hurt in Lupin's life and at the same time knows Lupin is no fool; so it's not surprising that a boy like Harry, with his own wounds, would open up to another he feel would be empathetic.

Very true. Furthermore, Remus seems much more approachable, DD seems much more distant. Harry put DD in a pedestal. He was in a way, Harry's hero. The wise and skillful wizard who knew everything and could fix everything.

Remus was at first a shabby, tired professor, who looked as if a good spell could have killed him. Harry then started to respect and appreciate Remus for his skills as a teacher, for his kindness and for being there for him. Not to impose rules and make sure that Harry obeyed, not to only teach him something and then control him strictly to see if he had learned his lessons. He was just there for Harry, his door was always opened. And Harry just felt that Remus would not judge him and would not tell him what to do! He would just listen and try to help him!

by Scothoser My theory is that Lily allowed for an emotional connection with Lily that could only happen between a guy and a girl that were friends. She probably had heard a lot of his frustrations about being what he was, knowing the life that he was likely to lead after graduation. She was kind, sympathetic, and willing to give him encouragement. She was probably as close to a sister as he every had (assuming he was the only child, of course).

It is definitely possible, of course. I am not so sure, though, that Remus was the kind of person to talk about himself much. I don't see him complaining to Lily about his condition, his perspectives and his life in general! But I do think that Lily was a person to whom Remus could talk about lots of things: from muggle literature- all the fics portrait Remus as reading a lot of muggle literature- to politics- such as how are goblins, werewolves in general etc treated by society- pure bloods and half- bloods and muggle borns, the wizarding worlds as opposed to the muggle world, classes, teachers, what they wanted to become and what they thought they would become and why not? James and Sirius's pranks! Remus had to put a good word for James! :)

seteesurvivor
April 14th, 2005, 12:49 am
lupin tells harry that because his boggart is a dementor he fears fear itself. how ever a dementor does not represent fear rather it represents bad memories. a boggart represents fear, so if harry truly feared fear itself he should see the true shape of a boggart rather then a dementor

Scothoser
April 14th, 2005, 12:52 am
Very true. Furthermore, Remus seems much more approachable, DD seems much more distant. Harry put DD in a pedestal. He was in a way, Harry's hero. The wise and skillful wizard who knew everything and could fix everything.

Remus was at first a shabby, tired professor, who looked as if a good spell could have killed him. Harry then started to respect and appreciate Remus for his skills as a teacher, for his kindness and for being there for him. Not to impose rules and make sure that Harry obeyed, not to only teach him something and then control him strictly to see if he had learned his lessons. He was just there for Harry, his door was always opened. And Harry just felt that Remus would not judge him and would not tell him what to do! He would just listen and try to help him!
And that's why I like Remus so much.. He was there as a mentor, friend, and real teacher. He was willing to let Harry make his own mistakes and learn from them. He was more like a father and brother than anyone else he interacted with to that point (Sirius, of course, came up in his estimation after he found out the truth).

He also makes sure that Harry understands the details behind the Dementor's effect on him. This is where McGonagall and Madame Pomfrey dropped the ball. They made it sound like a failing or weakness on Harry's side. Remus helpe him understand that the effect has a real cause, and it's something that actually is a strength to Harry. That is something that I think shows the depth of Remus' love and devotion for Harry, and his memory of his parents. ^_^