Layers in HP 13: When 13 dine together ...

"Tripe, Sibyll?"

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This thread is for the discussion of the "Layers" in JKR's Harry Potter in its thirteenth incarnation.



Here is a good link about Spartan life, with an excerpt about the wittiness of the Spartans. That is certainly a big part of the Harry Potter books!

http://www.e-classics.com/lycurgus.htm

Quote:

--Their sayings were so sharp and pertinent that the Spartans were more famous for their wit than for their prowess as soldiers and athletes. Even though at war and in sports they were by far the best in Greece, intellectual exercise was considered to be the essence of the Spartan way of life. From an early age, they learned to pack many layers of meaning into a few words -- and, more importantly, when to speak and when to shut up.

JKR has mastered this Spartan art. :agree: Her interviews seem to be the outermost layer. The rest is up to us. As Purplehawk says, we're the onion slicers.:huh:

JKR has woven so many layers into these books. She is amazing. So far we've seen alchemy, astrology, celtic and druid belief and mythology, greek and roman history and mythology, herbology, sociology, Jungian psychology and archtypes, European history, runes, wicca, word puzzles, fantastical beasts, obsession with sports involving balls and the careful choice of names all woven together. What have I missed? I don't think she missed very much at all. No doubt they will discover Atlantis and Lemuria in book six and travel to a galaxy far, far away in book seven! It wouldn't surprise me to find elements of John's Revelation represented in HP, as well.

Edit: I forgot Shakespeare. Sorry.

First Post! Yeah! Not that I have anything to say, but I just had to grab it.

First post with actual content coming up! :p

So why not start the new thread with a new update from Jo?

Dumbledore is really Ron/Harry ‘from the future’
Your inventiveness knows no bounds, and I do not mean that sarcastically; these theories open up exhilarating new vistas of possibility… but they’re wrong. Could it be that by speculating that Harry/Ron becomes Dumbledore, you are seeking reassurance that neither dies young?

I’ve also heard a whisper about Ron and Hermione’s son time-travelling, so I shall go further and tell you that NONE of the characters in the books has returned from the future. As for the idea of Ron and Hermione having a son… (chuckles as the distant roars of a million shippers reach my ears, all cursing me to an eternity of unsatisfied curiosity).


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Picking up on an idea from the last thread, I would say that since no character has travelled back from the future, that would include Voldemort and Salazar Slytherin. So Voldemort does not travel back in time and found Hogwarts! Jo seems to be coming down on all the theories involving long term time travel and one character being another character.

Hmmm. I wonder who will get post number 13?

First post with actual content coming up! :p

So why not start the new thread with a new update from Jo?


Picking up on an idea from the last thread, I would say that since no character has travelled back from the future, that would include Voldemort and Salazar Slytherin. So Voldemort does not travel back in time and found Hogwarts! Jo seems to be coming down on all the theories involving long term time travel and one character being another character.Not necessarily time travel concerning secret identities; but I think there's still room to learn information from the past, obtained from the past, that pertains to the upcoming story.

Not necessarily time travel concerning secret identities; but I think there's still room to learn information from the past, obtained from the past, that pertains to the upcoming story.
I definately agree with you there. There are so many questions that can only be answered with information from the past. For example, we know very little about the life of Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort.
Past events are very important to present and future events.

First post with actual content coming up! :p

So why not start the new thread with a new update from Jo?


Picking up on an idea from the last thread, I would say that since no character has travelled back from the future, that would include Voldemort and Salazar Slytherin. So Voldemort does not travel back in time and found Hogwarts! Jo seems to be coming down on all the theories involving long term time travel and one character being another character.

Hmmm. I wonder who will get post number 13?
:lol: Well, we know who'll get the tripe. ;)

Well she finally squashed it. (tj may have a reason to .... er, celebrate like his team had won. :whistle: )

I thought it was a brilliant idea. But, on we go.

Bringing up an idea from an old thread, and the US cover art, I speculate that the pensieve on the cover holds memories from long ago, quite possibly Godric Gryffindor's. What if Dumbledore's pensieve has been passed down through all the headmasters of Hogwarts?

Not necessarily time travel concerning secret identities; but I think there's still room to learn information from the past, obtained from the past, that pertains to the upcoming story.

The cover art makes it pretty clear we will learn information from the past. Harry and Dumbledore are gazing into a pensieve, after all.

From JKR, "...so I shall go further and tell you that NONE of the characters in the books has returned from the future."

What this means to me is that no one in the books today went into the future and came back to today.

It does not mean that someone from today could not have gone into the past and then came back to today.

Well she finally squashed it. (tj may have a reason to .... er, celebrate like his team had won. :whistle: )

You mean I may get to see those pictures yet?

I definately agree with you there. There are so many questions that can only be answered with information from the past. For example, we know very little about the life of Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort.
Past events are very important to present and future events.
In many ways, Barmy's on the mark about the story going backwards. Maybe it's going in two directions at once.

Nicolas Flamel is going to come to Hogwarts to teach potions

Flamel has now died; Dumbledore explained in ‘Philosopher’s Stone’ that his old friend was going to choose death rather than allow his stone to fall into the wrong hands.

:huh: A simple yes or no would have been easier to understand. I'm guessing no, but Binns will always make be wonder about these "dead ... and so quiet" individuals.

I don't imagine that Flamel would become a ghost, though.

You mean I may get to see those pictures yet?:elaugh: We can hope.

From JKR, "...so I shall go further and tell you that NONE of the characters in the books has returned from the future."

What this means to me is that no on in the books today went into the future and came back to today. It does not mean someone from today went into the past and then came back to today.
:sigh: Yeah. She's been doing stuff like that to us for years. She can answer a question and leave me more confused that before it was asked.

Karate run....... achoooo

I wanted to grab 13, but we need to go to soccer.
I think we shouldn't overanalyze comments--unless someone can show where she gave an interview answer that seems to show one thing, but meant the opposite through a technicality, we should assume she means what she says. If she wants to be sneaky, she can avoid answering. For example, I believe Wormtail was in Gryffindor, even though the questioner flubbed and said Remus twice, because a) it makes no sense for a friendship that involved huge amounts of time together working on secret stuff to evolve between two houses, given what we see in the trio's time; b) what possible use could there be to keeping it secret while deliberately misleading everyone? It is information many characters, after all, know--Snape and Lupin won't be stunned by the revelation that Peter's a slytherin.

I really like Barmy's and FFM's idea about the story going backward. I can think of several annoying modern novels with such--mostly because if you guess the secret by page 20, the remaining 300 pages leading up to the big denouement are a bit irritating. Anyone have a good story that unfolds through unfolding the past?

From JKR, "...so I shall go further and tell you that NONE of the characters in the books has returned from the future."

What this means to me is that no one in the books today went into the future and came back to today.

It does not mean that someone from today could not have gone into the past and then came back to today.Given that she was squashing the Ron=Dumbledore theory when she said that, I think it was fairly clear that she included all backwards time travel, including that which might have already happened. these theories open up exhilarating new vistas of possibility… but they’re wrong.

I think we shouldn't overanalyze comments--unless someone can show where she gave an interview answer that seems to show one thing, but meant the opposite through a technicality, we should assume she means what she says. If she wants to be sneaky, she can avoid answering. For example, I believe Wormtail was in Gryffindor, even though the questioner flubbed and said Remus twice, because a) it makes no sense for a friendship that involved huge amounts of time together working on secret stuff to evolve between two houses, given what we see in the trio's time; b) what possible use could there be to keeping it secret while deliberately misleading everyone? It is information many characters, after all, know--Snape and Lupin won't be stunned by the revelation that Peter's a slytherin.
I can't think of any quotes from Jo, which later turned out to be misleading. There are plenty of interviews people argue about, but I really don't think Jo is setting out to dodge anything. If she doesn't want to answer a question then she says so. Otherwise she answers it truthfully.

(tj may have a reason to .... er, celebrate like his team had won. :whistle: )


Aww Whizzer, I am not the type to say "I told you so". I actually feel bad for vmonte, who was practically delusional over this theory.

However, since your Red Sox beat my Cardinals, the Rams lost in the playoffs again, and the Illini lost the other night; I have had very little to gloat about. Sooo, GO JOHNNY, Good call!!!

I'm actually glad to see the thory shot down because time travel messes with my head.
But, I feel bad about it because there were a lot of people who really put a lot of though into that theory.

Dumbledore does have ways of knowing what is going on, even if he's not Ron. How does he do it?

Dumbledore does have ways of knowing what is going on, even if he's not Ron. How does he do it?Well, Fawkes gets around a bit, doesn't he? Then again he is always on his perch when Harry enters Dumbledore's study, so maybe he doesn't. We know the portraits act as both spies and messengers, and there is also the method of communication used by the Order. Do we know whether Dumbledore watches Harry personally, or if he's just using a well-placed network of informants, such as Mrs Figg? I'm sure those mysterious silver instruments have something to do with it as well.

. Anyone have a good story that unfolds through unfolding the past?

Yes, "Usual suspects", Bryan Singer's first big success movie. One of my very favorite movies :cool:

Dumbledore does have ways of knowing what is going on, even if he's not Ron. How does he do it?

He also has that awesome watch, with 12 hands and moons and things. I'm still convinced that Dumbledore can and does time travel, it's just that he is not Ron. I think it's still how he manages to arrive just at the nick of time so often.

I've always wondered about that watch myself. It seemed to me the very first time I read that part of PS/SS that Dumbledore's watch was in line with Planetary Movements and that he could tell time just by using the motions of the planets.
The movements of the planets can be important. They are used in Divination...think of how the Centaurs study those movements, and remember the homework that Trewlaney had Harry and Ron doing that invoved charting the planets. I think that this ties nicely with Dumbledore's watch, if you, like me, belive that this watch is indeed tracking the movements of the planets. It could be used for more than telling time, if Dumbledore is proficent in Divination methods using the planets.

Anyone have a good story that unfolds through unfolding the past?
Yes, the movie Memento. It starts at the end and ends at the beginning, and in between there is another backstory going on, which happens before the story that is currently being told. It's kind of hard to describe, so you should all see it to understand what I mean...it's a really great movie!
I'm not surprised that the Dumbledore is Ron theory was shot down, I never really believed it, although it was a great theory, and the evidence supporting it was really good.

Anyone have a good story that unfolds through unfolding the past?
I just remembered that there was an episode of the TV show ER like this once. It started in the present, and then went backwards for the whole hour. You'd see so much of something happening, and then a commercial break, then it would flash back to an earlier event. The whole show went like this until the end, when you finally understood everything that had happened in the beginning of the show. It was interesting, but it took me a while to figure it all out.

I'm actually glad to see the thory shot down because time travel messes with my head.
Time travel messes with my head too! :)
Dumbledore does have ways of knowing what is going on, even if he's not Ron. How does he do it? He's got all those instruments, including the watch, he's got an army of former headmasters/mistresses in potraits to tell him whats going on elsewhere, he can become invisible without a cloak, has Fawkes to help with warnings, etc, and can do things with a wand no one has ever seen, has House Elves in his employ (they have their own brand of magic that has yet to be revealed - but they can Dis/Apparate inside of Hogwarts -powerful) - he's got an impressive amount of items/people at his disposal, it's no wonder he's practically omnipotent! And that only covers what we KNOW. We don't know if he''s an animagus, which would also give him ways to obtain info. Although I doubt he's an animagus b/c Hermione would have pointed that out, she (and therefore we) would only know if he were listed ( if he's not it's either because he's unregistered :wow: or maybe he became an animagus before there was a registry).
But, I feel bad about it because there were a lot of people who really put a lot of though into that theory.
Well, I bet by Book 7, there are going to be a lot of people you are going to feel bad for, probably including me! :)

Ok. she said no character came back from the future, which means nobody is doing the Voldemort over. It helps to untwist those messed up brains.
Let me suggest what do Dumbledore and Harry see in that pensieve.(Question here, whose memory it is, I think it is Harry's):
Godric's Hollow, Voldemort just arrived,
James yells : Go! I'll try to delay him!...
Suddenly there is no Voldemort in sight,
but you hear James speak- give me the boy, Lily...
Never!
Oh, well... Die, if you are so stubborn!
Flash of green light.
Now for you my darling...
Another flash, you hear body fall and shadow flees away...."

Although I doubt he's an animagus b/c Hermione would have pointed that out, she (and therefore we) would only know if he were listed ( if he's not it's either because he's unregistered :wow: or maybe he became an animagus before there was a registry).
Hermione looked up the last 100 years, and Dumbledore is 150. I can see him keeping it secret, though--he's not above bending rules.
Timetravel is too complex because, like life debts, we really don't know what's possible and what couldn't work. In PoA there were lots of hints dropped, so it wasn't a shock that Hermione had been timetravelling. If someone needs to timetravel in future, we'll need a lot of "the key to resolving this is in the past" statements, not a sudden "Look, Harry! We'll use the invisibility cloak to steal a timeturner from the DoM, travel back 60 years, and hit Riddle with a memory modification spell! It's not risky because xxxxxx."

I just remembered that there was an episode of the TV show ER like this once. ,,,
The whole show went like this until the end, when you finally understood everything that had happened in the beginning of the show. It was interesting, but it took me a while to figure it all out.
I think that's what Barmy been trying to get at.

The story moves forward, too, at the same time. It's like there's a buildup to an event and afterwards we discover the background that led to it.

Isn't The Weight of Water, with Elizabeth Hurley and Shawn(sp) Penn, the same. It starts with the trial in the 1800's and goes back to how the murder began. That was an excellant movie.

Hermione looked up the last 100 years, and Dumbledore is 150. I can see him keeping it secret, though--he's not above bending rules.
Timetravel is too complex because, like life debts, we really don't know what's possible and what couldn't work. In PoA there were lots of hints dropped, so it wasn't a shock that Hermione had been timetravelling. If someone needs to timetravel in future, we'll need a lot of "the key to resolving this is in the past" statements, not a sudden "Look, Harry! We'll use the invisibility cloak to steal a timeturner from the DoM, travel back 60 years, and hit Riddle with a memory modification spell! It's not risky because xxxxxx."
The trouble with any time travel theory is that in the Potterverse time travellers can't change anything. And even it they could, if Harry had travelled back 60 years to defeat Voldemort then Voldemort would always have been defeated 60 years ago and Harry would never have met him. It just doesn't work.

The trouble with any time travel theory is that in the Potterverse time travellers can't change anything. And even it they could, if Harry had travelled back 60 years to defeat Voldemort then Voldemort would always have been defeated 60 years ago and Harry would never have met him. It just doesn't work.
Isn't it a general rule of time travel in the first place that you aren't supposed to change things, because you could screw up the future if you do something that wasn't supposed to have happened? Squish one little bug, and you bring about nuclear holocaust or something like that...
But, in Jo's world you can't change things? Or, you aren't supposed to change them?

Anyone have a good story that unfolds through unfolding the past?

12 Monkeys is one example of a movie that starts at the end & explains the plot to the "beginning" so to speak. If you've seen that movie you know what I mean!

Isn't it a general rule of time travel in the first place that you aren't supposed to change things, because you could screw up the future if you do something that wasn't supposed to have happened? Squish one little bug, and you bring about nuclear holocaust or something like that...
But, in Jo's world you can't change things? Or, you aren't supposed to change them?

I think it is difficult to tell. For example, with Buckbeak we never see the actual scene when the executioner does out to Buckbeak in the first view, so it looks like he is never killed, because H & H go back in time and save Buckbeak. But Dd says to them that if they go back they will save more than one life, so they must have changed things by going back. It's like going in circles.

The trouble with any time travel theory is that in the Potterverse time travellers can't change anything. If timetravelers couldn't change anything, it wouldn't be dangerous and there wouldn't be laws against changing anything. Why would there be laws against doing something that can't be done?

If timetravelers couldn't change anything, it wouldn't be dangerous and there wouldn't be laws against changing anything. Why would there be laws against doing something that can't be done?

Good point. I guess the idea is that it is incredibbly dangerous and extreme caution must be used and nothing done without thought first.

I think it is difficult to tell. For example, with Buckbeak we never see the actual scene when the executioner does out to Buckbeak in the first view, so it looks like he is never killed, because H & H go back in time and save Buckbeak. But Dd says to them that if they go back they will save more than one life, so they must have changed things by going back. It's like going in circles.

ouch! my brain is starting to hurt....

Aww Whizzer, I am not the type to say "I told you so". I actually feel bad for vmonte, who was practically delusional over this theory.

However, since your Red Sox beat my Cardinals, the Rams lost in the playoffs again, and the Illini lost the other night; I have had very little to gloat about. Sooo, GO JOHNNY, Good call!!!
That's it? :grumble: Sorry, dvc. I thought it was in the bag, or running down the street anyway. ;)


Anyone have a good story that unfolds through unfolding the past?
Anyone remember Daphne du Maurier's Rebecca?

Okay, it was a movie too. A Hitchcock. :eyebrows:

Anyone remember Daphne du Maurier's Rebecca?
I read it this year, it was excellent, very mysterious as well.

Good point. I guess the idea is that it is incredibbly dangerous and extreme caution must be used and nothing done without thought first.
Which is why many people shouldn't be allowed to have time turners, and why I think that it was fair to entrust Hermione with one.

The 'dine with 13' is the only Trelawny threory that I ever liked. I just enjoy this theory. I too believe that this was forshadowing of siriur's so death when they were at his house and there was 13 of them sitting together and Sirius stood first.

The 'dine with 13' is the only Trelawny threory that I ever liked. I just enjoy this theory. I too believe that this was forshadowing of siriur's so death when they were at his house and there was 13 of them sitting together and Sirius stood first.I never caught that one! I always just laugh my way through that part of POA, because McGonagall says "Tripe, Sybill?"--(offal) As in "hmph, that's what I think of your prediction."

Only, Sirius wasn't the first to get up from the table...It was Ginny--she was on the floor rolling butterbeer corks to Crookshanks... :rolleyes:

Hooray Ron is Dumbledore is dead. Harry was at Godric's Hollow is dead. Voldemort is Slytherin is dead. Hermione is McGonagall is dead. Have I missed any?

Hooray Ron is Dumbledore is dead. Harry was at Godric's Hollow is dead. Voldemort is Slytherin is dead. Hermione is McGonagall is dead. Have I missed any?Wasn't there one about someone being Flamel via timeturning?

Wasn't there one about someone being Flamel via timeturning?
Well somehow Ron was also Flamel and Dumbledore.

Harry is Flamel. DOA

I've always wondered about that watch myself. It seemed to me the very first time I read that part of PS/SS that Dumbledore's watch was in line with Planetary Movements and that he could tell time just by using the motions of the planets.
The movements of the planets can be important. They are used in Divination...think of how the Centaurs study those movements, and remember the homework that Trewlaney had Harry and Ron doing that invoved charting the planets. I think that this ties nicely with Dumbledore's watch, if you, like me, belive that this watch is indeed tracking the movements of the planets. It could be used for more than telling time, if Dumbledore is proficent in Divination methods using the planets.
I'm fascinated with his watch, too. At first, it reminded me of the Weasley clock. I thought maybe he was keeping an eye on Harry somehow, and knew what the planets stood for, like different people or ideas. But your idea makes more sense.

We also have to consider the context in which the watch is explained. We get a lot of little tidbits about Dumbledore's personality. For example, his liking of lemon drops, a muggle sweet, shows right off that he is not prejudiced against muggles (even though we couldn't have known then what that meant.) This watch kind of shows how strange he is, even by wizarding standards. It's something foreign to readers; the very notion of a watch with planet hands! No one else we've met has one like it. But there seems to be more significance to it past revealing his character. We'll see it again before long, methinks.

And Voldemort is Slytherin is dead. Dumbledore is Crookshanks is deader. And I agree that Ginny got up first, so unless she is secretly dead, or Sirius is alive (breathe Trinny!), then it wasn't foreshadowing.
If, in book 6, Sirius comes back and Ginny dies, I will of course be willing to eat this post. Figuratively.

Back to commentary: Who from the past might have left a penseive behind? I vote for Godric Gryffindor (who could then be lion man), but the other founders and Riddle are options. Is there another way to fill in historic backstory without a pensieve or requiring Harry to stay awake in History of Magic?

I'm fascinated with his watch, too. At first, it reminded me of the Weasley clock. I thought maybe he was keeping an eye on Harry somehow, and knew what the planets stood for, like different people or ideas. But your idea makes more sense.

We also have to consider the context in which the watch is explained. We get a lot of little tidbits about Dumbledore's personality. For example, his liking of lemon drops, a muggle sweet, shows right off that he is not prejudiced against muggles (even though we couldn't have known then what that meant.) This watch kind of shows how strange he is, even by wizarding standards. It's something foreign to readers; the very notion of a watch with planet hands! No one else we've met has one like it. But there seems to be more significance to it past revealing his character. We'll see it again before long, methinks.
I always wondered can wizard be at 2 places at once?
Dumbledore gives impression that he can.
His watch has 12 hands, I wonder which important things those hands track.

J.K. Rowling- Philosophers Stone:
Dumbledore gave a great sniff as he took a golden watch from his pocket and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little planets were moving around the edge. It must have made sense to Dumbledore, though, because he put it back in his pocket and said, "Hagrid's late.
It has planets, 12 hands and can be bewitched to follow certain events?
Like the same hand can set to be showing when to expect someone, and another where he is at the moment. Plus planets...

When Harry and Ron both get up from the table together, we worry about which one of them will die.

J.K. Rowling opened up the can of worms called "improperly dead." What if somehow, they share a death?

Many are ready to jump on the bandwagon that Voldy and Harry share souls, life forces, mailboxes, whatever. What if the important sharing occurs between friends?

Somehow, Lily's blood protected Harry from certain death. If Harry and Ron become blood brothers, wouldn't that make some difference? If Harry's blood inside Voldy is important, then maybe Ron's blood inside Harry might create some kind of anchor, so that you don't go on beyond the veil - a connection that helps you make your way back to the land of the living?

My thought is that Harry will have to defeat Voldy both in the world of the living and the world of the dead. Voldy can't have that opportunity to do his "meanest ghost" bit again.

My thought is that Harry will have to defeat Voldy both in the world of the living and the world of the dead. Voldy can't have that opportunity to do his "meanest ghost" bit again.

Does this idea come from the thought that Voldemort wasn't human enough to die, but (at least at the time it was expressed) not properly alive either? Right NOW he seems to be very much in the land of the living, and we're not sure about the "human enough" now that he has some of Harry's blood in his veins. Voldemort doesn't, at this time, seem to be in the world of the dead.

If timetravelers couldn't change anything, it wouldn't be dangerous and there wouldn't be laws against changing anything. Why would there be laws against doing something that can't be done?Perhaps anabel meant that they aren't allowed to change anything. Thinking back to the great discussion about time travel and Buckbeak, one thing has become clear. Ms. Rowling says dead is dead, so Buckbeak never, ever died. But that doesn't get rid of the paradoxes.

I've been thinking about the mystery of the story. One mystery is what will happen between Harry and Voldemort. The greater mystery though is what did happen between Harry and Voldemort. Knowing the past, what has been kept from us, could let us make a very short list of possible endings. Ms, Rowling's remarks, though, do not eliminate time travel. So dealing with Voldemort in the future could involve dealing with him in the past -again the reason the past has been kept from us. What I really would like is for the future to influence the past as in 'Through the Looking Glass', where the queen was living backwards.

I like it because it's mind bending. Generally we think the present is the cause that determines the future, the result. But the results we want in the future determine our actions now in the present, so the future is influencing the past. -especially if the future is foretold in a prophecy.

Anyone have a good story that unfolds through unfolding the past?
Not a good story, but Slaughterhouse 5 by Kurt Vonnegaut (I probably mangled his name) is one. Actually the whole thing takes place at the same time, and most of the events in the beginning are imagined from events later on because the storyteller is insane. I thought it was a poor read, so it goes...

It's also not one for young readers either, being a novel about a guy who survives World War II, what do you expect though.

As for time travel, no I won't start. But I will post a link here, to my views on the subject. Doesn't necessarily apply to HP since JKR may not share my views.

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=1943241#post1943241

Some people believe that time travel is possible because the past, present and future are actually happening at the same time. It is only our need as humans to experience time as linear. If someone (oh let's say, Dumbledore the Wise, knew this) it might explain how he knew certain things.

I'll answer my own question: "To Say Nothing of the Dog" by Connie Willis, about timetravelling historians who, in theory, can't change history, but can alter the past if it prevents an anomoly in the future.
On Barmy's point: I believe the first chapter of book 6 is likely to be what happened at Godric's Hollow. But I expect it will open up a new level of layers as much as it resolves--watching what happens to Voldemort physically won't make it clear, I expect, just what, spiritually, is going on.

Wow, interesting thread. Couldn't resist adding my views on the current topic of discussion.

Some people believe that time travel is possible because the past, present and future are actually happening at the same time. It is only our need as humans to experience time as linear.

With every passing second, time changes. What was the future, becomes the present; the present becomes the past. So it is not possible for the past, present and the future to happen simultaneoulsy, for one leads to the other. Though I agree with you- time is not linear. These three aspects of time are so well-connected, that it would be wrong to call time linear.

Generally we think the present is the cause that determines the future, the result. But the results we want in the future determine our actions now in the present, so the future is influencing the past. -especially if the future is foretold in a prophecy.

I agree. And in JKR's world, it is possible for the present to affect the past as well. Yes, one leads to another. But where does it begin? It's like asking- what came first, the hen or the egg? This can be applied to the first prophecy. Did Trelawney see Voldemort attacking the Potters- was the prophecy a consequence of what Voldemort had already done in the future? Or did Voldemort's actions purely a result from something said in the past, i.e. the prophecy? This could explain why Voldemort chose Harry that night, over Neville (apart from the explanation that Dumbledore gave about Voldemort seeing himself in Harry) though the prophecy pointed to both.

I always wondered can wizard be at 2 places at once?
Yes - Harry and Hermione were both inside and outside Hagrid's hut. Those inside were just a few hours younger than those outside.

Yes - Harry and Hermione were both inside and outside Hagrid's hut. Those inside were just a few hours younger than those outside.
Without the time turner.

Without the time turner.Ah!.... I certainly hope not! Sounds uncomfortable to say the least. Maybe Aberforth acts as a Dopelganger for him or something though...

And Voldemort is Slytherin is dead. Dumbledore is Crookshanks is deader. And I agree that Ginny got up first, so unless she is secretly dead, or Sirius is alive (breathe Trinny!), then it wasn't foreshadowing.
If, in book 6, Sirius comes back and Ginny dies, I will of course be willing to eat this post. Figuratively.

Back to commentary: Who from the past might have left a penseive behind? I vote for Godric Gryffindor (who could then be lion man), but the other founders and Riddle are options. Is there another way to fill in historic backstory without a pensieve or requiring Harry to stay awake in History of Magic?
Hmmm, good question, but maybe it was one of the objects that is old and just remains at Hogwarts because it is safe there - like The Mirror of Erised.

There's also a thread on Crookshanks being James. I hope a mod will kill these threads (hey, they did it with James=Lupin thread!)

Does this idea come from the thought that Voldemort wasn't human enough to die, but (at least at the time it was expressed) not properly alive either? Right NOW he seems to be very much in the land of the living, and we're not sure about the "human enough" now that he has some of Harry's blood in his veins. Voldemort doesn't, at this time, seem to be in the world of the dead. Well, LV did say in the graveyard "But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my sights lower...I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength." (656, GoF) So does this mean he's mortal? Sounds like a yes. We also don't know if Voldemort Version 2.0 has all of the protections that his old body had from all those experiments he spent >20 years trying on himself (and he would have to repeat ALL of them again to get protection again if his body #2 doesn't have it b/c he himslef said he wasn't sure which one actually worked!)
Some people believe that time travel is possible because the past, present and future are actually happening at the same time. It is only our need as humans to experience time as linear. If someone (oh let's say, Dumbledore the Wise, knew this) it might explain how he knew certain things. Technically, time travel is possible. I cannot even begin to explain it, but if you are into that sort of thing, try reading "The Fabric of the Cosmos : Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality" by Brian Green. He actually brings physics and math to a level even I can understand!

Without the time turner.
Unless there is another mode of time travel that we don't know about, I hope not. Like Machiavelli said, that would be a bit uncomfortable.

Still, there's always the problem of time travel that has been discussed about at length here in the past.(The trouble being: If someone goes back in time to fix something, why should they go back in time to fix it if it's already been fixed?)

Without the time turner.

If you believe in multiple timelines, maybe you could splice off a version of yourself within the same timeline. Then use a similar device to merge with your alternate self once you both decide to. You couldn't use a time-turner for that, the device would have to do something very different than move time.

Without the time turner.
You could always splinch yourself. Technically, you are then in two places at once. :p

If you believe in multiple timelines, maybe you could splice off a version of yourself within the same timeline. Then use a similar device to merge with your alternate self once you both decide to. You couldn't use a time-turner for that, the device would have to do something very different than move time.Since that would be amazingly difficult to write I don't think JKR is going to go that way... she really limited time travel and its use in PoA - there wasn't anything that happened in the first iteration that wasn't explainable by events in the second iteration so it appears that Harry and Hermione didn't actually change anything; they were always there twice.

Where's tjrih to bring out that broom? Time travel is sticky... anyone inspired with a new topic? What about anabel's question about Flitwick being featured, according to JKR's update, in 6 books. Is he Doomed?

You could always splinch yourself. Technically, you are then in two places at once.

But in the form of severed body parts alas.

Terry pratchett in the Discworld series refers to the divergent time lines theory (what Ridcully refers to as the trouserlegs of time) Basically in any instant where there are two possiblities (Buckbeak dying or not dying) then both things happen and the timelines divide. The Harry and Hermione who used the time turner come from the line where Buckbeak didn't die.

Of course in most timelines Harry's already dead

Terry pratchett in the Discworld series refers to the divergent time lines theory (what Ridcully refers to as the trouserlegs of time) Basically in any instant where there are two possiblities (Buckbeak dying or not dying) then both things happen and the timelines divide. The Harry and Hermione who used the time turner come from the line where Buckbeak didn't die.

Of course in most timelines Harry's already deadThat's assuming JKR agrees with the multi-timeline idea. Seems to me it's simpler - Buckbeak never died, nor did Harry. Had Harry died there is no place where he could go back and save Sirius and himself! Bugger... I swore I wouldn't get into time travel again... as you were!

To get off of the time travel subject for a moment, or two, or twenty....
I want to get back to Dumbledore's watch.

Dumbledore gave a great sniff as he took a golden watch from his pocket and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little planets were moving around the edge. It must have made sense to Dumbledore, though, because he put it back in his pocket and said, "Hagrid's late. I suppose it was he who told you (Professor McGonagall) I'd be here, by the way?"
Planets. Not numbers, planets. It is pretty clear to me that the watch is indeed a way for Dumbledore to tell time. The watch must map the planets as the revolve aroud the sun, and by that, Dumbledore is able to tell the time. That part is clear.

But, there are others who study the movement of the planets, for a different reason. The Centaurs. They study the heavens to determine future events. Could Dumbledore's watch be a way for Dumbledore to be able to tell what could happen in the future?
This could explain how he knew to get back to Hogwarts at the end of PS/SS. All it would take would be a quick check of the watch to know that something wasn't right. So, on the way to London, he checks the watch wanting to check the time, and sees something there that tells him that things are not right. He reads this as a warning that he is needed elsewhere, in this case, Hogwarts, and he turns around, arriving at Hogwarts in the nick of time. The same can be said for the Trial in OotP. A quick check of the watch, and he sees something not quite right, so he arrives very early at the Ministry of Magic.

In order to properly read the watch, Dumbledore would have to have a good working knowledge of both Astronomy and Divination, as he would have to understand both planetary movements in relation to time, and planetary movements in relation to the future. Dumbledore, being the powerful and knowledgeable wizard that he is, probably does understand these things, and can most likely use them to his advantage.

Planets. Not numbers, planets. It is pretty clear to me that the watch is indeed a way for Dumbledore to tell time. The watch must map the planets as the revolve aroud the sun, and by that, Dumbledore is able to tell the time. That part is clear.

But, there are others who study the movement of the planets, for a different reason. The Centaurs. They study the heavens to determine future events. Could Dumbledore's watch be a way for Dumbledore to be able to tell what could happen in the future?
But, as divination goes, doesn't Firenze tell us that the planets aren't concerned with everyday dealings. The implications of Firenze's first divination class were that reading planetary movements can give you some wide sweeping predictions, but nothing as specific as this at this time, and so on...

But, as divination goes, doesn't Firenze tell us that the planets aren't concerned with everyday dealings. The implications of Firenze's first divination class were that reading planetary movements can give you some wide sweeping predictions, but nothing as specific as this at this time, and so on...

Yes, I guess he does. He also calls the things that Trewlaney teaches something along the lines of human nonsense. Of course, if there were a way to combine the broad sweeping predictions of the centaurs with some of that Human nonsense, the whole thing could work.

Yes, I guess he does. He also calls the things that Trewlaney teaches something along the lines of human nonsense. Of course, if there were a way to combine the broad sweeping predictions of the centaurs with some of that Human nonsense, the whole thing could work.Maybe there was a fad for planetary watches for a while... or maybe DD's mum gave him the watch when he got his astronomy NEWT... I was interested in the idea of a pocket future-predictor until EG pointed out the little anomoly... neat idea though!

Maybe there was a fad for planetary watches for a while... or maybe DD's mum gave him the watch when he got his astronomy NEWT... I was interested in the idea of a pocket future-predictor until EG pointed out the little anomoly... neat idea though!

See, I have a problem with completely discrediting the idea. We are introduced to two very different methods of divination using the planets in OotP. We have the serious long term things that Firenze teaches, and we have the somewhat silly things that Trelawney teaches. There has to be a good reason why we are shown the two different methods. If it is not Dumbledore's watch, which I am fine with, then there is another reason. The Centaurs seem to think that the human version is nonsense, but I don't know that it is. It is wholly possible that Firenze's view of humans may be a bit tainted with prejudice. Even though he is better towards humans than the rest of the Centaurs that we have seen does not necessarily mean that he is free from prejudices against humans.

Prophecies have become important. We have heard two thus far, and there is an entire hall filled with them. Thus, something that is an imprecise branch of magic has become important.

This is my first layers post, so forgive me if I do it wrong! :)

Two thoughts occurred to me reading through the thread this far:

(a) the pensieve; I'm another one who thinks finding out about the past is the key to understanding the future, and hoping chapter one of book six is Godric's Hollow... and Harry's memories would be a nifty way to do it. They'd be memories he doesn't know he has, or that he can only access vaguely (they seem to get stronger the more he's Demented, but I'm pretty sure Dumbledore wouldn't dement him just to get at them) so, are they really there? If so, can Harry pull them out and put them in a pensieve? I'd imagined that you focussed on the memory you wanted, to get it in the right place to be pulled out, but Harry can't really do that with his baby memnories, can he? Though Snape can Legilimens memories Harry doesn't know he has, so maybe that's a way for Dumbledore, and the reader, to get at them. (I'm assuming Dumbledore doesn't know exactly what happened at Godric's Hollow, because he wasn't there. I'm waiting to be proved wrong...).

If the thoughts in the pensieve aren't Harry's, whose are they? Is it possible to leave thoughts in a pensieve when you die, so people can access them who can't access you????

(b)"Hagrid's late". Had they previously arranged a time to meet at the Dursleys'? It seems so, unless Dumbledore's watch can track people. If so, WHY was Hagrid late, and why doesn't Dumbledore seem to mind? Was he carrying on with whatever they were doing in the Missing Day, or did Hagrid run off with Harry for some unspecified nefarious purposes? :eyebrows:

See, I have a problem with completely discrediting the idea. We are introduced to two very different methods of divination using the planets in OotP. We have the serious long term things that Firenze teaches, and we have the somewhat silly things that Trelawney teaches. There has to be a good reason why we are shown the two different methods. If it is not Dumbledore's watch, which I am fine with, then there is another reason. The Centaurs seem to think that the human version is nonsense, but I don't know that it is. It is wholly possible that Firenze's view of humans may be a bit tainted with prejudice. Even though he is better towards humans than the rest of the Centaurs that we have seen does not necessarily mean that he is free from prejudices against humans.Okay... but Dumbledore himself discounts Trelawney's stuff - he says she's only uttered two real genuine prophecies to his knowledge in all the years she's been spouting.. tripe... to the students. I'd be more likely to believe this if the astronomy class talked about predictions - but they haven't have they?
Prophecies have become important. We have heard two thus far, and there is an entire hall filled with them. Thus, something that is an imprecise branch of magic has become important.There certainly is - the Prophecy itself! But I'm not ready yet to say that Trelawney's astrology is important. So far it has been comic relief.

This is my first layers post, so forgive me if I do it wrong! :)No worries - I don't think you can do it wrong, and you're making quite interesting points.

Two thoughts occurred to me reading through the thread this far:

(a) the pensieve; I'm another one who thinks finding out about the past is the key to understanding the future, and hoping chapter one of book six is Godric's Hollow... and Harry's memories would be a nifty way to do it. They'd be memories he doesn't know he has, or that he can only access vaguely (they seem to get stronger the more he's Demented, but I'm pretty sure Dumbledore wouldn't dement him just to get at them) so, are they really there? If so, can Harry pull them out and put them in a pensieve? I'd imagined that you focussed on the memory you wanted, to get it in the right place to be pulled out, but Harry can't really do that with his baby memnories, can he? Though Snape can Legilimens memories Harry doesn't know he has, so maybe that's a way for Dumbledore, and the reader, to get at them. (I'm assuming Dumbledore doesn't know exactly what happened at Godric's Hollow, because he wasn't there. I'm waiting to be proved wrong...). I firmly believe chapter 1 is going to be a flash-back scene of some sort, probably Godric's Hollow (JKR did say it has been in the works since book 1) but she also said that Harry didn't see what happened since he was in his cot at the time so I'm not sure that his memories will be directly used. However... I did wonder though if Voldemort's memories could be accessed via the connection with Harry's scar?
If the thoughts in the pensieve aren't Harry's, whose are they? Is it possible to leave thoughts in a pensieve when you die, so people can access them who can't access you????That one I'm not sure of - I don't quite see how memories can survive without the mind... but then this is magic we're talking about! It also seems a bit careless to leave your memories lying about for years and years in an object that anyone could use, abuse or destroy.
(b)"Hagrid's late". Had they previously arranged a time to meet at the Dursleys'? It seems so, unless Dumbledore's watch can track people. If so, WHY was Hagrid late, and why doesn't Dumbledore seem to mind? Was he carrying on with whatever they were doing in the Missing Day, or did Hagrid run off with Harry for some unspecified nefarious purposes? :eyebrows:Maybe it can track people - perhaps that's what those 'plants' actually are (rather like the clock in the Weasley house). I can't quite see Hagrid having a nefarious purpose during the missing time, but then again, I haven't worked out anything else that could have been happening during that day either!

Oh - and welcome! I don't use emoticons much, but it's just as sincere as if it came with a yellow smiling face with a sign!

Okay... but Dumbledore himself discounts Trelawney's stuff - he says she's only uttered two real genuine prophecies to his knowledge in all the years she's been spouting.. tripe... to the students. I'd be more likely to believe this if the astronomy class talked about predictions - but they haven't have they?
I agree... There is also the possibility of the distinction between divination and seeing to account for. I don't trust divination all too much in general. Especially in context of Jo's themes, it seems, well, rather 'woolly'. Even Firenze's interpretation of it seems a bit too indistinct for my liking. But, then again, I've always been one for cold hard fact as opposed to vague possibility.

Oh - and welcome! I don't use emoticons much, but it's just as sincere as if it came with a yellow smiling face with a sign!
Or ever... Here, I'll supply one for you... :welcome: Tiphany!

I agree... There is also the possibility of the distinction between divination and seeing to account for. I don't trust divination all too much in general. Especially in context of Jo's themes, it seems, well, rather 'woolly'. Even Firenze's interpretation of it seems a bit too indistinct for my liking. But, then again, I've always been one for cold hard fact as opposed to vague possibility.I agree. Of course JKR had to muck it all up with two actual prophecies, but as those were said without consulting stars or tea leaves or animal bits I think it's fair to say that the divination class stuff is pure bollocks - at least as taught by Trelawney!
Or ever... Here, I'll supply one for you... :welcome: Tiphany!Show off!

Just a general statement here:
The whole purpose of Harry choosing to take Divination was then to lay the ground work for the two prophecies that we have seen so far in the books. I can buy that. It was during his examination during third year that he heard the first true prophecy being made. He then knew that prophecy was real, and could happen. He found about about a second prophecy during his fifth year. I'm guessing that he will most likely drop Divination during his 6th year. He will focus more on the NEWT level subjects that will help him most in reaching his goal of becoming an Auror.

Show off!
It's easy!

And THANK GOODNESS they didn't get into animal parts. Yuck! I don't know how to use emoticons...

I agree. Of course JKR had to muck it all up with two actual prophecies, but as those were said without consulting stars or tea leaves or animal bits I think it's fair to say that the divination class stuff is pure bollocks - at least as taught by Trelawney!
I actually like making the distinction between divination, as in what they teach in class (with either Firenze or Trelawney), and the making of a prophecy. It seems and enitrely different entity to me.
Show off!
Teach me to try and be helpful! :rolleyes:

I'm guessing that he will most likely drop Divination during his 6th year. He will focus more on the NEWT level subjects that will help him most in reaching his goal of becoming an Auror.I quite agree that he will drop Divination. I wonder if he will pass the OWL - the exam seemed to go badly. It's odd that Jo spends nearly three books constantly rubbishing the subject of Divination, only to come up with a prophecy that is generally accepted to be real and vital to the plot of a whole book. What's going on here?

I actually like making the distinction between divination, as in what they teach in class (with either Firenze or Trelawney), and the making of a prophecy. It seems and enitrely different entity to me.


Prophecy does seems to come from elsewhere. It does not seem to be a conscious function. Trelawney did not seem to remember even making the prophecy about Wormtail returning to his master and the return of Voldemort in PoA. She seemed to be in a trace state.
Most of the divination stuff we have seen seems to come from the conscious mind.

I quite agree that he will drop Divination. I wonder if he will pass the OWL - the exam seemed to go badly. It's odd that Jo spends nearly three books constantly rubbishing the subject of Divination, only to come up with a prophecy that is generally accepted to be real and vital to the plot of a whole book. What's going on here?
Put quite simply... Divination and prophecy are two entirely separate things.

I quite agree that he will drop Divination. I wonder if he will pass the OWL - the exam seemed to go badly. It's odd that Jo spends nearly three books constantly rubbishing the subject of Divination, only to come up with a prophecy that is generally accepted to be real and vital to the plot of a whole book. What's going on here?

I guess a REAL prophecy would be pretty obvious when one witnessed it, as opposed to the fluff taught in Divination.

Just a general statement here:
The whole purpose of Harry choosing to take Divination was then to lay the ground work for the two prophecies that we have seen so far in the books. I can buy that. It was during his examination during third year that he heard the first true prophecy being made. He then knew that prophecy was real, and could happen. He found about about a second prophecy during his fifth year. I'm guessing that he will most likely drop Divination during his 6th year. He will focus more on the NEWT level subjects that will help him most in reaching his goal of becoming an Auror.Good point - it also allowed for The Grim stuff, and some nice red-herring work with Sirius-the-dog etc. I certainly agree that he'll drop the class (even if he passes his OWL)... at least I sincerely hope so!

Good point - it also allowed for The Grim stuff, and some nice red-herring work with Sirius-the-dog etc. I certainly agree that he'll drop the class (even if he passes his OWL)... at least I sincerely hope so!

Not in the mood for any more comic relief, eh?

Put quite simply... Divination and prophecy are two entirely separate things.Yup - divination is trying actively to read the future, prophecy appears to be an involuntary but genuine act - not reading of reading the future but of speaking about the future.

Not in the mood for any more comic relief, eh?Well... there are bits I prefer! To be honest I could easily do without Grawp as well...

Yup - divination is trying actively to read the future, prophecy appears to be an involuntary but genuine act - not reading of reading the future but of speaking about the future.
Now, here's a question that I know I've asked before... Given that they are two separate things, is accurate divination actually possible? Or is it just complete bunk?

Good point - it also allowed for The Grim stuff, and some nice red-herring work with Sirius-the-dog etc. I certainly agree that he'll drop the class (even if he passes his OWL)... at least I sincerely hope so!Yes, the whole Grim business would have passed unnoticed if the kids weren't studying Divination. The classes are comic relief, but they hint at various important areas too. For example the dream diaries. Harry might have benefitted from taking his dreams more seriously early on, perhaps asking advice from a trusted adult (Snape wasn't much help).

Well... there are bits I prefer! To be honest I could easily do without Grawp as well...Grawp drives me up the wall! I have been known to skip that chapter when rereading!

Now, here's a question that I know I've asked before... Given that they are two separate things, is accurate divination actually possible? Or is it just complete bunk?Real world? I know what I believe definitely... HP world? Hard to say. I'd say Trelawney is a fraud; the centaurs seem to think they have a handle on things but as they also say they can easily mis-read the signs I don't see what earthly good that really is! If you can't tell what is valid until after the fact I don't see the point of pursuing it in the first place... but... well, that's just me!

Now, here's a question that I know I've asked before... Given that they are two separate things, is accurate divination actually possible? Or is it just complete bunk?The centaurs seem to take it very seriously, even though Firenze admits that centaurs have interpreted the skies wrongly before. He implies that the stars and planets never lie, but that they can be misinterpreted.

Divination class was a good plot point that opened the door to many things, that with out it, would never have been paid attention to.

I think that accuarte divination could only be possible if one was able to silence the conscious mind and tap into other parts of the mind. I think that consciousness gets in the way of true divination and people tend to make interpretations based on what the waking mind tells them. This is why, when Harry and Ron make things up, Trelawney belives them.

Yes, the whole Grim business would have passed unnoticed if the kids weren't studying Divination. The classes are comic relief, but they hint at various important areas too. For example the dream diaries. Harry might have benefitted from taking his dreams more seriously early on, perhaps asking advice from a trusted adult (Snape wasn't much help).good point about the dream things. Harry's dreams seem to be a mixed bag though - unless giving Cho his broomstick becomes vital later on (FF please, FF...)
Grawp drives me up the wall! I have been known to skip that chapter when rereading!Yup. And she says he'll be back too. Ah well, not everything is perfect!

Mach seems to be Divining what I'm about to post today, anyway. That's about the third time this evening!

Mach seems to be Divining what I'm about to post today, anyway. That's about the third time this evening!Gulp! I did just have a cup of tea... let me check... dang - rinsed out the leaves already!

Not a good story, but Slaughterhouse 5 by Kurt Vonnegaut (I probably mangled his name) is one. Actually the whole thing takes place at the same time, and most of the events in the beginning are imagined from events later on because the storyteller is insane. I thought it was a poor read, so it goes...Kurt Vonnegut? He's a genius! He's one of my favorite authors. I intend to read that novel eventually.

I agree with those that dislike Grawp. I, too, am guilty of skipping that chapter. It's boring, and that's all there is to it. That's the only chapter I simply cannot stand. Having said that, do you think he'll be important later? Like have a key role in some grand final battle, or do some heroic action? Or do you think he has served his purpose already, to show the importance of tolerance and compassion? I hope we don't see too much more of him, but I kind of hope he was there for a reason and that I'll like him better if he does something important. (I guess he did do something important by helping Harry and co.)

If the thoughts in the pensieve aren't Harry's, whose are they? Is it possible to leave thoughts in a pensieve when you die, so people can access them who can't access you????


Well, the thoughts could be anyone's, really. My guess was that they are Dd's and he's showing Harry his battle with Grindlewald, but then again - I stink at Divination :)

Speaking of Divination, the centuars do seem to know whats going on and what will be going on using their planetary studies...they know who is in the Forest in SS, and Bane tells Firenze he is not to mess with the outcome (so is that like the time travel no-no for centaurs?). It does seem as though there may actually be a reasonable method to Diviniation, just not as done by Trelanwney. Remember she's at Hogwarts more for protection than actual ability, which explains why there is a diviniation class. BUT there is also an OWL, and possibly NEWT level exam officiated by someone(s) who is presumably adept at Diviniation. It also seems like trelawney's great-grandmother (or whichever relative, i can't remember) was a respected Seer, and there is a whole roomful of prophecies that are taken so seriously that they are recorded and kept at the MoM, so there may actually be some credible way to Divine, we just don't know what it is!

And about the emoticons, if I can do them, surely anyone can! I've even managed (with much help, thank you!) to add a links and such. Mach, if no one else has offered to help you, send me an owl! Although it does sound as if you are quite content with things as they are ;)

As for the question of being able to leave thoughts in a pensieve, that's a very good question. Snape and DD left them when they left the repective rooms they had been in, but it's one thing to leave a room and quite another to leave the land of the living. I presume your thoughts would pass with you, but I can give no good reason why they could not stay in the pensieve if you left them there. Hmmmm....

As for Grawp, I could leave him as well. He had better be useful for something, and not end up as a Jar Jar Binks type! UGH!

As for the question of being able to leave thoughts in a pensieve, that's a very good question. Snape and DD left them when they left the repective rooms they had been in, but it's one thing to leave a room and quite another to leave the land of the living. I presume your thoughts would pass with you, but I can give no good reason why they could not stay in the pensieve if you left them there. Hmmmm....If you can place a thought in a Pensieve and a prophecy in a glass sphere, surely you can store a memory from the past in some sort of container.

I'm guessing that he will most likely drop Divination during his 6th year. .I'm guessing he won't. Continued communication with Firenze may be important -there is some odd business of Harry knowing outcasts of each group of creatures (including Grawp). This is assuming Firenze remains as a teacher. If it's Trelawny then maybe she has another foresight in the works that Harry should hear. Furthermore, the classes have been useful scenes for Ms. Rowling to amuse herself with foreshadowings from Harry and Ron.

Yes, I guess he does. He also calls the things that Trewlaney teaches something along the lines of human nonsense. Of course, if there were a way to combine the broad sweeping predictions of the centaurs with some of that Human nonsense, the whole thing could work.
It does work though. For most wizards the planets wouldn't register the everyday fluff "Hey, I was late for work today and was given a pay cut, and this watch was predicting good times!" But for Dumbledore, his "fluff" is somewhat more important "Gee, something bad is about to happen. Maybe the death of the One, and impending rule of the Dark Lord, which will plunge the world into darkness the likes of which has never before been seen. Maybe I should check on Harry." So maybe the planets are telling him something.

Also, for Hagrid, Dumbledore seems rather calm after looking at the watch. Maybe he was thinking Hagrid was late because he and Harry were both killed, but he checked the watch and everything was fine, so he figured he'd stand around and talk some more.

Hagrid maybe just needed to wet his whistle? Of course, with Harry in tow that might have been a bit difficult...

I'm guessing he won't. Continued communication with Firenze may be important -there is some odd business of Harry knowing outcasts of each group of creatures (including Grawp). This is assuming Firenze remains as a teacher. If it's Trelawny then maybe she has another foresight in the works that Harry should hear. Furthermore, the classes have been useful scenes for Ms. Rowling to amuse herself with foreshadowings from Harry and Ron.I'd have to agree here, although it seems like these classes only bring Harry misery and foreshadowing (that is miserable.) I think Firenze will stay, because one character (Hermione?) supposed that both he and Trelawney would stay. I hope for a third prophecy, if only because three is such a nice, fairytale number.

To the question about a watch- why can't it be customizable, wizard alarm clock of sorts- where some hands are set to represent people or places and plantes represent moods, situations- we know that in real live we have Venus associated with love, Mars with war and so forth... So Dumbledore in fact can set his watch to show him the status of the people he wants to know about.
Like:
Uh-Oh- Umbridge in the ministry early, I'd better hurry up, or
Harry has a Stone and Quirell is with him? I'd better get back to Hogwarts at once!

Well, LV did say in the graveyard "But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my sights lower...I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength." (656, GoF) So does this mean he's mortal? Sounds like a yes. We also don't know if Voldemort Version 2.0 has all of the protections that his old body had from all those experiments he spent >20 years trying on himself (and he would have to repeat ALL of them again to get protection again if his body #2 doesn't have it b/c he himslef said he wasn't sure which one actually worked!)
There is a three-fold problem:
Is Voldemort being honest with his death eaters? (I suspect so, but I wouldn't, if I were an evil overlord.)
What does Voldemort understand his condition to be? (Mortal, but mortal with benefits?)
What does Dumbledore understand Voldemort's condition to be? (The refusal to kill him in the MoM, and Voldemort's surprise, suggest to me that Dumbledore and Voldemort differ in their view of what would destroy Voldemort.)

Remember in the DoM, after the trio plus Neville, Ginny and Luna have been cornered by the Death Eaters, and two of the prophecies break?
Well, one of them says something about an 'old, bearded man' or something like that (sorry don't have my book with me)
Who do you suppose this man could be? Does he/could he have any importance, or is he just an old man?

I don't quite see how memories can survive without the mind... but then this is magic we're talking about! It also seems a bit careless to leave your memories lying about for years and years in an object that anyone could use, abuse or destroy.
Snape's worst memory strongly implies that the memories in the pensieve are not in Snape's head anymore, and exist only in the dish, something that is not clear in Dumbledore's use of the pensieve. I could very easily see it as something passed down by headmasters as they approached death--these important thoughts I leave to my successors.

Yup - divination is trying actively to read the future, prophecy appears to be an involuntary but genuine act - not reading of reading the future but of speaking about the future.
Prophecy appears to be the future mugging the past.

Remember in the DoM, after the trio plus Neville, Ginny and Luna have been cornered by the Death Eaters, and two of the prophecies break?
Well, one of them says something about an 'old, bearded man' or something like that (sorry don't have my book with me)
Who do you suppose this man could be? Does he/could he have any importance, or is he just an old man?
I tend toward the view that the broken prophecies mean nothing, except to show how to open the sphere, and to give Harry the idea of breaking a bunch. There was a young woman, as well, no glasses--not Trelawney.

ETA: So many prophecies--do most have their lights go out without ever being heard by the ones concerned?

I'm guessing he won't. Continued communication with Firenze may be important -there is some odd business of Harry knowing outcasts of each group of creatures (including Grawp).
Sorry, but that just reminded me of "The Island of Misfits" from Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer :) You are right, though, Harry does seem to be making friends with the fringe elements - Dobby, Firenze, Grawp,etc....but he needs a Goblin friend to round out the mix!
In all seriousness, I agree that it is a bit odd, but will probably come in QUITE useful to Harry as the story progresses.

As for ETA: So many prophecies--do most have their lights go out without ever being heard by the ones concerned?
I started a thread called "The prophecy orb - does the glow have meaning?" but it's gone away (to where, I have no idea! That's happened to me twice now!) Anyways, one of the mods came on and told me it had been discussed in this thread and that we all came to the same conclusions
- that the glow fades as time passes and is extinguished after what it phrophesized has occured. If memory serves me well (it usually does not), the only people who work with the orbs are the Unspeakables, and they are not talking. I guess any wizard could go and take his/her own prophecy if s/he knew there was one about him/her. Do you suppose, in general, that wizards are told if there is a prophecy about them in the DoM?

BTW - what does ETA mean? (I eventually figured out what SWM stood for, and it wasn't Single White Male :) )

ETA=Edited to add, nice clarification bit for other readers if someone started responding to your original post. At least, I appreciated it when others did it, and picked it up.
I had interpreted the lights as going out when the prophecy is fulfilled. And I certainly hope they tell people, but they didn't tell Harry, who may fulfill the prophecy before he reaches adulthood.

ETA: And PBS, a few pages back, meant pureblood supremacy, not public broadcasting system.

It stands for: Edit To Add

Oops, Yrraine beat me to it.

It does seem like no one would necessarily know that there's a prophecy about them. It makes you wonder why they keep them so safe and organised if they don't have any intention of letting the 'owner' of the prophecy get a listen.

It does seem like no one would necessarily know that there's a prophecy about them. It makes you wonder why they keep them so safe and organised if they don't have any intention of letting the 'owner' of the prophecy get a listen.

You know, I thought about that once. If only the people they are about are alowed to remove them and it is quite possible that there are tons of people that have had a prophecy made about them, but they don't know it. There must be tons of "old" prophecies laying around the DOM. Maybe the warehouse just magically grows to accomadate them...

But, anyway, I guess that the DOM probably takes the stance that Prophecies are "need to know" info and they (obviously) protect them quite well. I've been curious as to how the prophecies are recorded. Is it automatic? Does that mean that Trewlany's second prophecy is recorded there, even though she didn't admit that she had made the prophecy?

It stands for: Edit To Add

Oops, Yrraine beat me to it.

It does seem like no one would necessarily know that there's a prophecy about them. It makes you wonder why they keep them so safe and organised if they don't have any intention of letting the 'owner' of the prophecy get a listen.
I would think they accept that anyone who has a prophecy made about him/her would have the right to hear, but don't go around broadcasting their contents to the entire Wizarding World... Especially as they are so vague... I can just see a column in the Daily Prophet, something like the classifieds, that reads... 'Seeking one 'Dark Lord' and one 'Boy with The Power' to hear prophecy recently made about them.'

The planet room and the time room are the same room, I reckon. Remember, Harry thought Ron and his group ran into the same room that he was running to himself. But they weren't there and Harry was disoriented about where they had gone. What that room represents is the Space/Time Continuum. (probably didn't spell that right) The first group entered at a different time and had a different experience.

Being an old science fiction fan, I know a space/time tesseract when I see one. I just can't spell it.

What do the planets mean? I wonder if the planets refer to characters.

Mars is bright tonight. (Centaurs in SS)
Voldy is in the woods drinking bright unicorn blood. Mars is war.
Mars = Voldy
I will fly a broomstick to Jupiter. (Ron under Veela spell at Quidditch World Cup)
Jupiter = Zeus - King. Flys broom and gets theme song.
Jupiter = Ron
Harry is under baleful influence of Saturn.
Does Harry = Saturn?
When there are two Neptunes, a midget in glasses is born.
Midgets are children. Harry wears glasses.
Can I see Uranus? (Goblet of Fire) I saw Uranus. (Order of Phoenix)
Uranus is the sign of the zodiac related to rebellion/change.
(it is time for the wizards to change to a new way of living)
Uranus is the sky father killed by his son.
Tom Riddle Sr. killed by Riddle, Jr.
Barty Crouch Sr. killed by Barty Crouch, Jr.

Or maybe "Uranus" is just a play on "anus" and refers to Snape! :)

So I wonder if she has a code relating characters to planet names.

"Why don't you get stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a friend because Venus was in the twelth house." Goblet of Fire

Twelth house = # 12 Grimmauld Place?
Venus = female. Hermione is a Virgo. Also with a name like Nymphadora...that is a rather female name.

Also, we have the various metals that alchemical concepts relate to. I bet we can match up alchemical metals to planets to characters. Maybe Dumbledore's famous watch is keeping track of specific people too?

So, the prophecy room at the DOM is kind of like a huge catalogued library that mostly NOBODY is allowed to access. How useful is that?

So, the prophecy room at the DOM is kind of like a huge catalogued library that mostly NOBODY is allowed to access. How useful is that?
Its not so much that nobody has access to them... Its just that so few people actually know they have access.

If only the people about whom the prophecy was made are able to retrieve the prophecy (which was why Voldemort needed Harry at the DOM), then the access is VERY limited. Any one person would probably be able to "check out" only one prophecy, if, indeed, as you suggest, that person even KNEW about it.

But with the sheer quantity of prophecies in there, that number would end up being a fair few...

That's true enough, but with the restrictions you could hardly, say, do research...

Snape's worst memory strongly implies that the memories in the pensieve are not in Snape's head anymore, and exist only in the dishIf they're not in his head any more, how does he know anything about them?
The planet room and the time room are the same room, I reckon. Remember, Harry thought Ron and his group ran into the same room that he was running to himself. But they weren't there and Harry was disoriented about where they had gone. What that room represents is the Space/Time Continuum. (probably didn't spell that right) The first group entered at a different time and had a different experience.My, what sharp eyes you have! And sharp ideas to match. Have to read that part again. I mentioned a while back the book 'The House of Dr. Dee' by Peter Ackroyd. The modern figure influences Dee in the past by means of the time anomaly in Dee's house. Dee in the past sees and hears the future person while skrying and thinks it's someone from the spirit world. So this thing in the Department of Mysteries could be a similar mechanism and allow the present or future to influence the past.
Harry is under baleful influence of Saturn.
Does Harry = Saturn?Was this from book 5? Saturn =Nigredo (Saturnine night) in alchemy. And /Or Saturn =CronusFrom this they conclude that, when there was chaos, no time existed, insofar as time is a fixed measure derived from the revolution of the sky. Time begins there; and of this is believed to have been born Kronos who is Chronos, as was said before.Dumbledore's the fellow with the funny watch and Harry is under his influence.

Harry isn't under anyone's influence (including Voldemort). His behavior could be a lot more productive and helpful is he were under someone's influence. As it is, he does a lot of counterproductive foolish things.

Harry has freewill and his choices will reveal his character. The books would be a complete disappointment if we were to find out Harry was some kind of puppet. It would make most things that happened rather anti-climatic.

Thankyou for the welcome, folks!

Harry isn't under anyone's influence (including Voldemort). His behavior could be a lot more productive and helpful is he were under someone's influence. As it is, he does a lot of counterproductive foolish things.


Yes, and this shows the difference between Dumbledore and Voldemort too; V would like to have Harry under his control, and I'm sure plenty of the "good side" would like to see Harry under D's control because then, as you say, Harry would be more useful and sensible; but D won't be that unethical, he lets him have his free choice even if that causes trouble.

Going back a few posts (sorry, but I was asleep - this thread moves very fast!) to the difference between divination and Seeing; I'm inclined to believe that divination can be a useful way to see trends and probabilities, if not definite futures, but Trelawney isn't much good at it. She is a Seer, as in visions of the future are revealed through her without her knowledge; it's as if she's a channel for prophecies to come through. If so, then is there anything she or anyone else can do to make themselves a better channel? To make themselves more likely to be accepted as a channel for accurate prophecies? Can you "attract" prophecies about a certain thing? That would be really very useful...

I think that the seer opens a window on the future. They see what will happen before it does. Now does this mean that the event is set in cement? That remains to be seen. In PoA when they use the time turner they merely go back to the past to fulfill their destiny. This implies an element of predestination. However the prophecy is not so specific as to name who kills who so there is some flexibility there.

If they're not in his head any more, how does he know anything about them?
If they're still in his head, why remove them before letting Harry into his mind?

Now, here's a question that I know I've asked before... Given that they are two separate things, is accurate divination actually possible? Or is it just complete bunk?

I think accurate divination is possible. Some of the half-messing-around divination Ron and Harry did in class came close to coming true. Darn it, now you're going to want examples, and that means I'll have to go get my books. I'll be back in a minute.

Edit: Here we go. I'm just going to give one example. It was their first divination class, looking at tea leaves. PoA, Chapter 6, pages 105 - 106 American paperback:

"My turn..." Ron peered into Harry's tea cup, his forehead wrinkled with effort. "There's a blob a bit like a bowler hat," he said. "Maybe you're going to work for the Ministry of Magic.

We don't know yet, but Harry wants to work for the MoM as an auror.

He turned the teacup the other way up.

"But this way it looks more like an acorn....What's that?" He scanned his copy of Unfogging the Future. "'A windfall, unexpected gold.' Excellent, you can lend me some ...

Harry won a bunch of gold in the Tri-Wizard Tournament.

"and there's a thing here," he turned the cup again, "that looks like an animal ... yeah, if that was its head ... it looks like a hippo ... no, a sheep ..."

Trelawney goes on to claim the animal is a grim. This is, of course, close to true, as it could have been Sirius. However, I wonder what Ron thought he was seeing, and what a sheep might have meant had he looked it up in Unfogging the Future. The sheep (and most specifically, the lamb) is, of course, a sacrificial animal. Interesting that it is associated with Harry.

Here's what I found about lambs, at http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/legend01/lamb.htm:

A lamb is a young sheep less than a year old. Its youth, along with its white coat make this creature a symbol of innocence, purity, helplessness, virginity, and gentleness. Legend insists that the lamb is the only animal Satan can not possess. The first lambs of spring announce the annual victory of spring over winter and hence life over death.
Its symbolic innocence and purity made the lamb a propitiatory sacrifice to gods throughout the ancient world. It was thought that the purity of the sacrificial lamb would atone for the sins of the giver. So the lamb became a symbol for meekness, atonement, and sacrificial victims.

Legend insists that the lamb is the only animal that Satan (Voldemort?) cannot possess.

Here's what I found about rams. at http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/legend01/ram.htm:


Rams were sacrificed on the altars of Israel and most of the ancient world (Gen 15:9; Ex 29:1-3, 15-32; 35:7; 36:19; 39:34; Lev 5:15-18; 6:6; 8:2, 18-22, 29; 9:2-4, 18-19; 16:3-5; 19:21-22; 23:18; Num 5:8; 6:14-19; 7:15-88; 15:6, 11; 23:1-4, 14, 29-30; 28:11-28; 29:2-37; Ezra 6:9, 17; 7:17; 8:35; Job 42:8; Psa 66:15; Ezek 43:23-25; 45:23-24; 46:4-11; 1 Chr 15:26; 29:21; 2 Chr 13:9; 29:21-22, 32). Isaiah prophesied that the rams returning to Israel with God's scattered children would joyfully offer themselves upon the altars of the Millennial Temple (Isa 60:7). Like other sacrificial animals, rams became symbols of Christ who went to the Cross as a willing sacrifice for our sins. In spite of the excellence of the Mosaic offerings, the Lord preferred hearts devoted to obedience, justice, love, mercy, and a humble walk with their Lord to the "fat of rams" (1 Sam 15:22; Isa 1:11; Micah 6:7-8).

That raises an interesting thought in my head. There is New Testament scripture about God not wanting sacrifices any longer. Maybe that bodes well for poor Harry, that he will not ultimately be a sacrificial lamb to drive away Voldemort!

\ Legend insists that the lamb is the only animal that Satan (Voldemort?) cannot possess.
And Harry is particularly good at throwing off imperio, and we are told that Kingsley's interpretation is not correct; Voldemort is not possessing Harry until the end, when he is thrown out of Harry.
Maybe that bodes well for poor Harry, that he will not ultimately be a sacrificial lamb to drive away Voldemort!
I'm glad someone has a positive take on the willing sacrifice idea.

"Harry isn't under anyone's influence"-ComicBookWorm

Yes, and this shows the difference between Dumbledore and Voldemort too; V would like to have Harry under his control, and I'm sure plenty of the "good side" would like to see Harry under D's control because then, as you say, Harry would be more useful and sensible; but D won't be that unethical, he lets him have his free choice even if that causes trouble.


All I want to say is that there is a BIG difference between influence and control. Of course Harry is under Dumbledore's influence. The question is how much. The things which influence you may help to shape your response to something but they do not form the whole thing(the response, that is)...that is where our own free will and intelligence (or lack thereiof) come in.

BTW - what does ETA mean? (I eventually figured out what SWM stood for, and it wasn't Single White Male :) )
I actually started a Harry Potter Internet Slang thread here:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=48118

Go ahead and check it out, you'll probably learn something. I never knew that so many Ships existed before, for one thing.

All I want to say is that there is a BIG difference between influence and control. Of course Harry is under Dumbledore's influence. The question is how much. The things which influence you may help to shape your response to something but they do not form the whole thing(the response, that is)...that is where our own free will and intelligence (or lack thereiof) come in.

I agree with you about there being a difference between being influenced by someone and being controlled by someone.
Harry is influenced by Dumbledore. He is also influenced by other people in his life who are important to him, including the Dursleys.
Look at the way he rarely asks questions. Does this come from all those years of being told "don't ask questions!"? I think it does.
He is influenced by his friends. He is even influenced by his teachers.
But, I don't think any of those people control Harry. I think Harry controls Harry, even when it seems that he is out of control.
Not even Lord Voldemort could possess and control Harry, although he did manage to control Harry's thoughts and dreams for awhile. I don't think that will last. Harry will take these things seriously, and he will try to stop them.

If they're still in his head, why remove them before letting Harry into his mind?Why, indeed -and did he let Harry into his mind?

Dumbledore used the Pensieve for organising his thoughts and seeing patterns and connections of ideas. That's like a notebook, and it is sufficient to have the memories going into the Pensieve be just copies of the original thoughts.

Snape we assume removed his memories to protect them from Harry. But that raises more than one question. Why would a skilled Occlumens like Snape feel the need to use an external device to protect his memories from a beginning student? Could be we have a little power thing there where Snape seemingly has the use of external protection, while Harry does not. And Snape seemingly has memories worth protecting from someone unworthy of seeing them, while Harry does not. The basic unfairness of the setup is typical of Snape. And then, how does Snape know about the memories in the Pensieve if he removed them from his head? That would be like amnesia. It seems unworkable and it seems not in keeping with Dumbledore's method. On top of this, we have the questions of why Snape would choose to protect those particular memories and why they are called his worst.

But, as you ask, if Snape's memories in the Pensieve are just copies of what are in his head, why remove them? It may be that the Pensieve, by its link provides some extra, magical protection to thoughts that Occlumency alone could not do. Or it could be that Snape did not remove the memories to protect them. Some have speculated that Snape meant Harry to see them, perhaps knowing from Dumbledore about Harry's curiosity with the Pensieve. If it were not Snape's intention, and if it were Dumbledore's Pensieve, then perhaps Dumbledore set Snape up, knowing what Snape didn't -that Harry would be curious.

Or, finally, perhaps the scene of Snape's worst memory is to be read as we usually read it and all these questions don't matter and will never be answered.

Snape putting his worst memories in the Pensieve (if they really are his worst ones) raises an interesting question. Can you remove bad memories and destroy them? I don't think Snape is ready to destroy this memory as his hatred is still too important to him. He's not ready to let it go. But theoretically if you can remove a memory, why not remove it permanently? There is Obbliviate too, and I can see the dangers of overusing this charm, but surely with a Pensieve the user is fully aware of which specific memories he is putting into it. How about a nice little Evanesco to get rid of them for good? (Then there's the question of where things go when they've been vanished, so this could go on for ever!)

I will confess (possibly again?) to being a hopeless literalist and interpreting most scenes as they appear on the surface. It is the SWM scene that makes me think the memories really are gone from the mind; I much prefer the notebook interpretation, as less creepy. One should be able to remember removing a memory, and why: painful, embarrassing, relevent to current dilemma, so you just need to remember to put it back.
Sorry to be brief, as I appreciate your well-thought out posts; I need to shuffle kids. I think Snape despises Harry; that does not mean he underestimates him. Harry can throw off imperius, as Snape knows. And it could be that novices sometimes access odd thoughts while trying to learn finesse, control, and subtlety--it seemed each was completely aware of the memories the other accessed. I'll bet that memory is close to the surface whenever Snape deals with Harry.

And then, how does Snape know about the memories in the Pensieve if he removed them from his head?
I would think maintaining the memories immediately following SWM would allow him to remember it. He'd remember remembering it, but not actually remember it happening. He'd also have the memory of putting it in the pensieve, so he'd know where to look for it.

And just thinking about this... I think that not remembering the memory you put in the pensieve is an integral part of why it works... Not only does it let you see things from an outside perspective and organize thoughts and whatnot, it allows for a new perspective. Having removed the memory, you'd be able to start with a blank slate in a way... Kind of a "If I knew then what I know now..." sort of thing.

I'll bet that memory is close to the surface whenever Snape deals with Harry.I think you hit the nail on the head there. It's not necessarily the worst thing that Snape ever experienced, but it constantly colours his dealings with Harry. Not surprising really, when Harry looks so much like his dad.

And just thinking about this... I think that not remembering the memory you put in the pensieve is an integral part of why it works... Not only does it let you see things from an outside perspective and organize thoughts and whatnot, it allows for a new perspective. Having removed the memory, you'd be able to start with a blank slate in a way... Kind of a "If I knew then what I know now..." sort of thing.That's a very interesting point. Of course, you'd still be yourself and have all the OTHER memories...

That's a very interesting point. Of course, you'd still be yourself and have all the OTHER memories...
Right... But, mightn't it give that little extra edge if you allowed it?

Snape putting his worst memories in the Pensieve (if they really are his worst ones) raises an interesting question. Can you remove bad memories and destroy them?I wonder whether anyone trained to use the Pensieve would be encouraged to do that? Supposedly one learns from mistakes, and bad memories as well as the good ones form one's character. Destroying bad memories would be destroying part of one's character and some of the foundation of wisdom.

I wonder whether anyone trained to use the Pensieve would be encouraged to do that? Supposedly one learns from mistakes, and bad memories as well as the good ones form one's character. Destroying bad memories would be destroying part of one's character and some of the foundation of wisdom.I'll agree with that... although I can see that it could be tempting. Still, as mentioned above he'd still have the memories leading up to it and after it and there would just be this large gaping time hole in his mind - very strange I should think! Personally I wouldn't do it - and I have some pretty lousy memories.

I wonder whether anyone trained to use the Pensieve would be encouraged to do that? Supposedly one learns from mistakes, and bad memories as well as the good ones form one's character. Destroying bad memories would be destroying part of one's character and some of the foundation of wisdom.
I agree. You are who you are based on your experiances. If you get rid of some of the less pleasant experiances, you would cease to be you.
I would think that most wizards would be wise enough to know this and would not want to wipe the bad things from their memories.

and I have some pretty lousy memories.Moi aussi. But now I'm wondering about victims of amnesia and what part of their character -if any -is lost.

Edit: oops-I had originally written amnesia victims, decided to rearrange it and then left out the amnesia. Obviously I don't need a pensieve to forget things.

Even my most embarrassing memories, buried as they are, I don't think I would want removed. I think most people would feel robbed. But wasn't there a movie on this recently--Sunshine of the Spotless Mind? Where two people opt to erase their memories of each other after a bad breakup, then meet again?

Even my most embarrassing memories, buried as they are, I don't think I would want removed. I think most people would feel robbed. But wasn't there a movie on this recently--Sunshine of the Spotless Mind? Where two people opt to erase their memories of each other after a bad breakup, then meet again? Indeed. It's a FANTASTIC movie, I don't generally like Jim Carrey, but he is great in this one. So is Kate Winslet. And Elijah Wood. I don't want to give away the movie, but it tackles some of the issues being discussed here about memories, in a very different and amusing way. It also brings up questions of fate, which have also been discussed here. As you can tell, I give it 2 :tu:
BTW - the title is "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind," it's from a poem I can't remember, but it's in the movie. Ok, I better stop before someone accuses me of posting an advert for the movie or something!

I just figured that what you put into the penseive were the gory details of a memory, while retaining the bare bones outline in your head. Kind of cleaning up to make more room or sort things out.

Sorry to veer away from the current discussion, I have just a small thing to ask. I know it has been done to death-Hence the name. But, I just wanted to ask If Harry and Ron both rose together, as that is what I remember. But my memory is so tired right now. I am pondering on clues, and foreshadowings at the moment (and always!).:p

Sorry to veer away from the current discussion, I have just a small thing to ask. I know it has been done to death-Hence the name. But, I just wanted to ask If Harry and Ron both rose together, as that is what I remember. But my memory is so tired right now. I am pondering on clues, and foreshadowings at the moment (and always!).:p
They didn't know which one of them got up first.

Sorry to veer away from the current discussion, I have just a small thing to ask. I know it has been done to death-Hence the name. But, I just wanted to ask If Harry and Ron both rose together, as that is what I remember. But my memory is so tired right now. I am pondering on clues, and foreshadowings at the moment (and always!).:p

Full to bursting with Christmas dinner and still wearing their cracker hats, Harry and Ron got up first from the table and she (Trelawney of course) shrieked loudly.
"My dear! Which of you left his seat first? Which?"
"Dunno," said Ron, looking uneasily at Harry.
"I doubt it will make much difference," said Professor McGonagall coldly, "unless a mad axe-man is waiting outside the doors to slaughter the first into the Entrance Hall."

Full to bursting with Christmas dinner and still wearing their cracker hats, Harry and Ron got up first from the table and she (Trelawney of course) shrieked loudly.
"My dear! Which of you left his seat first? Which?"
"Dunno," said Ron, looking uneasily at Harry.
"I doubt it will make much difference," said Professor McGonagall coldly, "unless a mad axe-man is waiting outside the doors to slaughter the first into the Entrance Hall."



:rotfl: That's one of the reasons I love McGonagall.

It makes me wonder what McGonagall thinks of the prophesy, if she even knows about it. I mean, she obviously doesn't believe a thing Trelawney has to say, and puts little stock in divination. I wonder if she'd advocate the position that Harry is not bound by the prophesy.

:rotfl: That's one of the reasons I love McGonagall.

It makes me wonder what McGonagall thinks of the prophesy, if she even knows about it. I mean, she obviously doesn't believe a thing Trelawney has to say, and puts little stock in divination. I wonder if she'd advocate the position that Harry is not bound by the prophesy.I wonder ... She obviously trusts Dumbledore, and Dumbledore takes the prophecy seriously. McGonagall has some wonderful lines, with both Trelawney and Umbrige (Tripe, Sybill?). Now I've often wondered why tripe was on the table for Christmas dinner ...

I wonder ... She obviously trusts Dumbledore, and Dumbledore takes the prophecy seriously
I supect she views Trelawney in the same way as Dumbledore. i.e. she makes the occasional prophecy (and doesn't know she has) but the rest of the time she's complete rubbish. Didn't Dumbledore say he was planning to drop the divination as a subject?
Now I've often wondered why tripe was on the table for Christmas dinner ...
Often? :huh:

Does anyone think someone’s memories could be removed and put into a pensieve by someone else? That is, against their will? I know “obliviate” already exists to cancel memories, but I would think this possibility of stealing and using someone’s memories would be slightly different. There is of course, no evidence of this in the books…just a thought.

On the subject of Diviniation, I would think that Divination has some bit of validity in the wizarding world since not only is a prophecy literally the basis for the Harry Potter plot (Volde knows part of the prophecy and goes after Harry; Harry’s story constantly leading towards the fulfillment of this prophecy). Additionally, Ancient Runes and Arithmancy are other forms of Divination. However, probably some forms (reading of the tea leaves perhaps) are less clear than others. Too vague maybe for most people to interpret correctly. Trelawney's big mistake is pretending that her form on Diviniation is really applicable. But, there have been a fair number of times even dear Miss Trelawney divined correctly. (She sees a grim: a large black dog, and a large black dog was in Harry ‘s immediate future. We still cannot definitively say that that large black dog was not also an omen of death!) Many Christians (at least in the U.S.) seem to believe in the biblical Revelations, which is essentially prophecy. And, of course the Department of Mysteries studies the prophecies, which gives Diviniation some credence, because no matter how we twist it, prophecy is information in regards to the future.

Additionally, while Diviniation class does make for “comic relief” there is also some thematic possibilities. Even in “real life” (that is our lives outside of HP and Mugglenet) there is a kind of “divination” or simply following logic. Sometimes you can “see the future” using your own senses – think about when you can see the automobile accident happening before it actually does, or when a friend is dating someone disasterous and you can see the end result ahead of time. Obviously this is not tea leaves or crystal balls, but as a theme, teenagers have a tendency not to think about the future at all – stuck right where they at the moment, which is why everything is so dramatic to them. Part of “growing up” is recognizing that you can (to some degree) plan a path for your own future.

Well…I am really rambling on for my first post back in several weeks. I have to end it though because my daughter is begging to play the Scholastic "wizard challenge!" I had wanted to comment intelligently about the earlier posts regarding the attempt to link Harry with Saturn (I’d wondered about it too…since Saturnalia and Christmas are basically the same celebration and that we can go down the whole Jesus/sacrifice path again. But Harry is not born in December, he is born in July (sun sign) so I don’t know where to go with Trelawney’s mistake. When is Voldemort’s birthday?

:rotfl: That's one of the reasons I love McGonagall.

It makes me wonder what McGonagall thinks of the prophesy, if she even knows about it. I mean, she obviously doesn't believe a thing Trelawney has to say, and puts little stock in divination. I wonder if she'd advocate the position that Harry is not bound by the prophesy.

Thats an interesting point and a question which has been asked more than once....how many people actually know about the prophecy?

Right now, Dumbledore, Harry, The Potters, Voldemort, the deatheaters (to a point). Those who went with Harry to the department know that there's a prophecy but don't know how it impacts Harry......am I wrong??

I don't know how much Dumbledore has confided in other people about what's happening.

Does anyone think someone’s memories could be removed and put into a pensieve by someone else? That is, against their will? I know “obliviate” already exists to cancel memories, but I would think this possibility of stealing and using someone’s memories would be slightly different. There is of course, no evidence of this in the books…just a thought.
I'm hoping not! Its bad enough that someone's thoughts can be obliterated in a matter of seconds....or that someone elses thoughts can be read without them knowing by a skilled legimens. I don't know if thoughts could be taken out and stored though in a pensive. Its an interseting (although scary!) thought that a wizard or witches wisdom/thoughts could live on after they have died maybe.

Was this from book 5? Saturn =Nigredo (Saturnine night) in alchemy. And /Or Saturn =Cronus

The quote is from Book 4 p. 200-201 Mad-Eye Moody
"...you were clearly born under the baleful influence of Saturn...Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth..."

Voldy was in power at the moment of Harry's birth. Saturn rules Capricorn. Voldy is a Capricorn. Voldy is linked to Harry's via the scar.

Saturn (Cronos) kills his father, Uranus in mythology.

I believe J.K. has a "planet code." for Harry may be Saturn.

Voldy's code may be Mars for War.
I am pretty sure Ron's code is Jupiter.
Hermione's code is...wait for it...Mercury! (Hermes)

Many people have noted that Harry's dreams seem to come true, Ron's jokes seem to come true, Trelawney's predictions seem to come true...I think J.K. Rowling is throwing the plot in our face here and if we can decode her, we will be able to understand where she is going with the story.

She is giving us clues with such humor and since the characters ( right up to Dumbledore himself!) discount Divination, she can have a field day telling us all kinds of things and we laugh and trot on elsewhere to ponder the mystery of Blaise's gender or whatever.

It is smoke and mirrors. (especially mirrors!) :)

Does anyone think someone’s memories could be removed and put into a pensieve by someone else? That is, against their will? I know “obliviate” already exists to cancel memories, but I would think this possibility of stealing and using someone’s memories would be slightly different. There is of course, no evidence of this in the books…just a thought. I would imagine that the wizard removing one of his own memories has to concentrate on that memory as he does the spell. That would be hard for another person to do, although I suppose a really skilled Legimens might be able to. Obbliviate is scary because, as we saw with Lockhart, it can be abused so easily. I'm not sure how the wizard performing the spell can select the memory to be removed, and the confused state the victim is left in suggests that the spell is not very precise, but takes more than is strictly necessary.
Many Christians (at least in the U.S.) seem to believe in the biblical Revelations, which is essentially prophecy. And, of course the Department of Mysteries studies the prophecies, which gives Diviniation some credence, because no matter how we twist it, prophecy is information in regards to the future. Prophecies in the Bible are said to be visions given by God to the selected recipient - the prophet, usually for the purpose of warning people, or predicting important future events, such as the birth and death of Christ.

Voldy's code may be Mars for War.
I am pretty sure Ron's code is Jupiter.
Hermione's code is...wait for it...Mercury! (Hermes)


huh. Jupiter's the king of the gods. I guess Weasley REALLY is our king. Good call there.

How do we know that Voldemort is a Capricorn? I didn't think we knew when his birthday was.

How do we know that Voldemort is a Capricorn? I didn't think we knew when his birthday was.We don't as far as I know. Unless it was on the website and I missed it!
:birthday: Lord Voldemort! :clap:




;)

How do we know that Voldemort is a Capricorn? I didn't think we knew when his birthday was.

I was going to ask the same thing. Though I think we learned that Snape is a Capricorn, didn't we?

Yes, Snape is a Capricorn. He was born January 9:

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1700573&postcount=873

(I don't know how to do the "click here" thing now that I'm set in WYSIWYG.) That's from Layers 9 3/4, Anabel's post wishing Snape a happy birthday. We discussed Snape's astrological sign for a little while after that.

Yes. Snape's birthday is in January. Around the 9th if I remember right.

Yes. Snape's birthday is in January. Around the 9th if I remember right.

Good memory! I just quoted you about it! (But I swear your post said the 10th when I clicked the "quote" button. Either my memory is lousy or you changed it!)

I(I don't know how to do the "click here" thing now that I'm set in WYSIWYG.) It's the little picture of the earth and a link. You highlight the text that you want to turn into a link, then copy the address into the box that pops up. It threw me completely at first too!

Good memory! I just quoted you about it! (But I swear your post said the 10th when I clicked the "quote" button. Either my memory is lousy or you changed it!)You caught me! I thought it was either the 9th or the 10th, typed the wrong one, read your post, and changed it!

The quote is from Book 4 p. 200-201 Mad-Eye Moody
"...you were clearly born under the baleful influence of Saturn...Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth..."

Voldy was in power at the moment of Harry's birth. Saturn rules Capricorn. Voldy is a Capricorn. Voldy is linked to Harry's via the scar.

Saturn (Cronos) kills his father, Uranus in mythology.

I believe J.K. has a "planet code." for Harry may be Saturn.

Voldy's code may be Mars for War.
I am pretty sure Ron's code is Jupiter.
Hermione's code is...wait for it...Mercury! (Hermes)

Many people have noted that Harry's dreams seem to come true, Ron's jokes seem to come true, Trelawney's predictions seem to come true...I think J.K. Rowling is throwing the plot in our face here and if we can decode her, we will be able to understand where she is going with the story.
Ok,interesting idea...I've pondered the characters symbolization to planets before too...but why is Harry Saturn? Is there another Saturn reference I missed? I thought maybe Trelawney was reading Voldemort in Harry's brain (if she were capable of that...) and he might be under the Saturn sign.

I have this vague memory that the blowing up of Uranus at the end of OOTP rang some bell in my head, but of course I cannot remember what that bell was. Something to do with either astrology, the Celts, or alchemy! Could be anything, right?

Ok,interesting idea...I've pondered the characters symbolization to planets before too...but why is Harry Saturn? Is there another Saturn reference I missed?

The definition of Saturn is: To develop self-control through formative processes requiring a sense of method and purpose, self-relkiance, discipline, realistic and constructive thinking. Saturn is the nature of reality.

I hope that helps, I think it sounds a bit like Harry, but I'm not sure.

Serpentine in the Alchemy thread did this wonderful list of all kinds of alchemical references. Here is the one I think relates to Harry as Saturn:

1. Saturn / black crow perching on top of a skull / Visita = Putrefaction
2. Jupiter / black crow watching itself dissolving / Interiora = Dissolution

Saturn and Jupiter are paired. Harry and Ron both were paired at the Mirror of Erised. With everything else going on, the "buddy theme" in HP is often lost. I think they will be sharing a death, (got up together from the table) which indicates improperly dying and the possibility of resurrection.

Also Jupiter relates to tin in the alchemical world. Tin is a poor metal! Poor Ron.

Once upon a time, I found a Celtic website that matched trees with the calendar: Harry/Holly = July, Ron/Willow = March, Voldy/Yew = December. So I figured that J.K. was using this calendar for assigning wand wood to characters. This was before J.K. announced that she did use the Celtic calendar for the wands! So I can claim I was right on wand wood! So in my private rejoicing, I can always say one of my theories was right!

The bad news is I can't find that particular website again! There are dozens of these trees vs. calendar listings and I can't find the one I saw earlier. There are many variations of the "wood of the month."

Do you suppose Wizards give each other Christmas gift memberships to the "Wood of the month club" a kit that includes a wand tree and complimentary bowtruckle? :) :)

Trelawney thought Harry was born in midwinter under the baleful influence of saturn. Harry of course, was born under the sun's home sign, Leo.

But this bright shining Leo is definitely influenced by Saturn's discipline and I think we see this in his "education" and tendency to frequent injuries. But Harry is himself, the sun.

Trelawney thought Harry was born in midwinter under the baleful influence of saturn. Harry of course, was born under the sun's home sign, Leo.

But this bright shining Leo is definitely influenced by Saturn's discipline and I think we see this in his "education" and tendency to frequent injuries. But Harry is himself, the sun.I feel the need to assert that I have mentally aligned Harry with the sun from my very first wanderings into HP "research." I was browsing in a bookstore and came across a Celtic Days book and found Harry's birthday to be the eve of Lammas, sometimes apparently known as Lughnasa, a celebration of a Celtic sun god. I have since found another, more scholarly book, (Stations of the Sun) which states that Lugh was not a sun god, but rather someone gifted with an extraordinary amount of skills...good at basically everything. (but folk tales describe him as 'shining like the sun.')

And yet another source (which I cannot find at the moment unfortunately, but it might have been an internet site) which notes Lammas to be a funeral celebration of the Midsummer "king"...but then another source says that no, that "death" happens in September! This 'king' is 'born' at Midsummer (!) and is the king of darkness, as he is in the process of taking over the sunlight. The 'king' of light is born, when else, but Midwinter, and will lose to the Midsummer king after the longest day of the year. And then it starts all over again. Death and rebirth, etc. etc. I am sure some of you out there are much more versed in the Celtic holiday calendar than I am, so take it for what you will. I find the sources to be constantly in contradiction with each other, but they are myths so what do you expect?

It was because Harry seems destined to defeat the king of darkness that I thought Trelawney mixed up his planetary influence. A 'king' born at Midwinter would defeat the king of darkness, sounds like Harry, and Saturn would be the December planet. I even had a crazy time when I wondered when Harry's dad was born and whether or not his soul was jammed into Harry too...but I'm over that bizarre concept!

Or: JKR gave no significance whatsoever to Harry's birthday, since it is her own as well. But I doubt that.

One more thing: Back in Layers 12 (I was away from the computer for ages!) I stated I thought JKR had a degree in Classics. I was promptly shot down...but this is what I read in J K Rowling's Harry Potter Novels by Philip Nel: "Rowling studied French as well as Greek and Roman Studies." (p.16) I don't know if it is true or not...but that is where the idea jumped into my head.

I have since found another, more scholarly book, (Stations of the Sun) which states that Lugh was not a sun god, but rather someone gifted with an extraordinary amount of skills...good at basically everything. (but folk tales describe him as 'shining like the sun.') Yup - Lugh the bright, the beautiful, the 'all skilled' - generally all around good guy! He wields the Spear of Assal (Gae Assal) which is one of the four treasures of the Tuatha de Danaan. Actually I think his major month was August... can't remember really... (I know - Harry was born last day of July so this is probably an unimportant niggle!) but the thing I remember most about him was his battle with the formori where he killed Balor (evil eye - a monster who could scorch the earth just with his gaze - and kill everyone in sight of course!) I believe that Lugh was drowned finally... Oh, also interesting to note that he is associated with lightning in some sources...

And yet another source (which I cannot find at the moment unfortunately, but it might have been an internet site) which notes Lammas to be a funeral celebration of the Midsummer "king"...but then another source says that no, that "death" happens in September! This 'king' is 'born' at Midsummer (!) and is the king of darkness, as he is in the process of taking over the sunlight. The 'king' of light is born, when else, but Midwinter, and will lose to the Midsummer king after the longest day of the year. And then it starts all over again. Death and rebirth, etc. etc. I am sure some of you out there are much more versed in the Celtic holiday calendar than I am, so take it for what you will. I find the sources to be constantly in contradiction with each other, but they are myths so what do you expect? I've also read about the 'funeral games of Lugh' but at least one source claimed it wasn't his funeral but that of his mother or foster mother... as you say, it's rather convoluted!

ETA: Here's the wikipedia take on it:
Lug instituted the harvest festival of Lughnasadh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lughnasadh) in memory of his foster-mother, Tailtiu, held on 1 August (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_1) at the town that bears her name (now Teltown (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Teltown&action=edit), County Meath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Meath)), and to have led horse races and displays of martial arts. It is a celebration of Lugh's triumph over the spirits of the Other World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_World) who had tried to keep the harvest for themselves. It survived long into Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) times and is still celebrated under a variety of names. Lughnasadh is now the Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language) name for the month of August (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August).

However, on the midsummer funeral thing it is interesting that Holly is sometimes seen as a symbol of the Winter King who battles yearly with summer (and loses of course, only to be re-born)... which seems to tie at least a little into your next comment:
It was because Harry seems destined to defeat the king of darkness that I thought Trelawney mixed up his planetary influence. A 'king' born at Midwinter would defeat the king of darkness, sounds like Harry, and Saturn would be the December planet. I even had a crazy time when I wondered when Harry's dad was born and whether or not his soul was jammed into Harry too...but I'm over that bizarre concept! Actually traditionally midwinter is associated with darkness so a 'king' born at that time wouldn't be expected to defeat the king of darkness - much more reasonable that Harry is born when he is - time of light. Trelawney I think was simply assuming that Harry was a tragic figure and therefore associated in her mind with darkness and cold.
One more thing: Back in Layers 12 (I was away from the computer for ages!) I stated I thought JKR had a degree in Classics. I was promptly shot down...but this is what I read in J K Rowling's Harry Potter Novels by Philip Nel: "Rowling studied French as well as Greek and Roman Studies." (p.16) I don't know if it is true or not...but that is where the idea jumped into my head.Makes sense. I think it's quite clear that she has read a lot of mythology, and has a good classics grounding. She has herself said (I think) that she doesn't have a very good Latin background and looks her spells up in the dictionary... now I'll have to go see if I'm making that up!

I wouldn't read too much into what Trelawney says about anything. Most of her predictions are rubbish. This particular example was to show what nonsense Astrology can be (she got Harry's star sign totally wrong), so I hardly think it will be important.

Mach wrote
She has herself said (I think) that she doesn't have a very good Latin background and looks her spells up in the dictionary... now I'll have to go see if I'm making that up!
I seem to recall that when she was given an honorary degree (last Year?) she said something about using a classical education for a reason other than teaching

Okay, mea culpa to MicheleLovegood! Here's from the woman herself:

Rogers: Your books have brought sort of a renewed interest in Latin.

Rowling: [laughs] I went back to my old university very recently, I did French and Classics there. I had to give a speech, which was very nerve-wracking because I'm speaking to very studious and learned people, some of whom used to tell me off for cutting lectures. And I said in my speech 'I'm one of the very few who has ever found a practical application for their classics degree.

It just amused me, the idea that wizards would still be using Latin as a living language, although it is, as scholars of Latin will know ... I take great liberties with the language for spells. I see it as a kind of mutation that the wizards are using. from this interview here (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-cbc-rogers.htm). I had always paid such attention to the French (she taught French and brings it up more than once) that I missed the classics bit! So she does indeed have a good background in Latin and Greek. I'm really pleased about this actually, it supports a minor theory of mine about language and word usage and people who know at least something of language history...

Ah, but I'm not totally mad because I also found this:
There is a lot of Latin in the spells in your books Do you speak Latin?

Yes. At home, we converse in Latin. [Laughter]. Mainly. For light relief, we do a little Greek. My Latin is patchy, to say the least, but that doesn’t really matter because old spells are often in cod Latin—a funny mixture of weird languages creeps into spells. That is how I use it. Occasionally you will stumble across something in my Latin that is, almost accidentally, grammatically correct, but that is a rarity. In my defence, the Latin is deliberately odd. Perfect Latin is not a very magical medium, is it? Does anyone know where avada kedavra came from? It is an ancient spell in Aramaic, and it is the original of abracadabra, which means “let the thing be destroyed”. Originally, it was used to cure illness and the “thing” was the illness, but I decided to make it the “thing” as in the person standing in front of me. I take a lot of liberties with things like that. I twist them round and make them mine.
whoops - and there's also this: Question: Ms. Rowling, for being fictional books, the Harry Potter books have a great grasp of the Latin language. I have noticed that many, if not most, of the names and incantations are of Latin heritage. How much research does it take to give these books their Latin heritage?
J.K. Rowling responds: My Latin, such as it is, is self-taught. I enjoy feeling that wizards would continue to use this dead language in their everyday life. though how a person with a classics degree can say their Latin is self-taught... now I'm baffled I admit!

Okay, mea culpa to MicheleLovegood! Here's from the woman herself:

Rogers: Your books have brought sort of a renewed interest in Latin.

Rowling: [laughs] I went back to my old university very recently, I did French and Classics there. I had to give a speech, which was very nerve-wracking because I'm speaking to very studious and learned people, some of whom used to tell me off for cutting lectures. And I said in my speech 'I'm one of the very few who has ever found a practical application for their classics degree.

It just amused me, the idea that wizards would still be using Latin as a living language, although it is, as scholars of Latin will know ... I take great liberties with the language for spells. I see it as a kind of mutation that the wizards are using. from this interview here (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-cbc-rogers.htm). I had always paid such attention to the French (she taught French and brings it up more than once) that I missed the classics bit! So she does indeed have a good background in Latin and Greek. I'm really pleased about this actually, it supports a minor theory of mine about language and word usage and people who know at least something of language history...That's interesting. In the biography section of her site she just mentions a degree in French at Exeter University. I had heard people mention classics but I couldn't find a quote to substantiate it.I left school in 1983 and went to study at the University of Exeter, on the south coast of England. I studied French, which was a mistake; I had succumbed to parental pressure to study 'useful' modern languages as opposed to 'but-where-will-it-lead?' English and really should have stood my ground. On the plus side, studying French meant that I had a year living in Paris as part of my course.


Maybe someone should research the syllabus for Exeter University in the late 80's.

That's interesting. In the biography section of her site she just mentions a degree in French at Exeter University. I had heard people mention classics but I couldn't find a quote to substantiate it.She seems to focus mainly on the French, but I also found this: There are lots of Latin names in the book and Roman names like Severus Snape - did you do Latin at school and enjoy it?
JKR: No I didn't do Latin at school, I did classics at university.

Maybe someone should research the syllabus for Exeter University in the late 80's.Hmmm.... interesting idea. Surely... I mean any classics program has to include Latin and Greek, doesn't it? History and mythology of course yes, but a grounding in the languages is essential just for the study!

Maybe someone should research the syllabus for Exeter University in the late 80's.

I think we are now officially grasping at straws. (But, at least, there have been some posts in the last hour or so. I was afraid Layers had died over the weekend. 3 posts in 24 hours has to be a record low.)

I think we are now officially grasping at straws. (But, at least, there have been some posts in the last hour or so. I was afraid Layers had died over the weekend. 3 posts in 24 hours has to be a record low.)At least it was easy for me to catch up on the weekend!

Okay, the classics programs I'm familiar with divide themselves into two sub-headings: Ancient History/Archaeology and Classical Language and Lit. Either one you have to pass at least fundamental Latin and Greek just to get started... but I'm bored enough to head off to the Exeter web site and see what they have to say...

eta: here we are then! (http://www.ex.ac.uk/classics/programme_specs/CH%20CS-French.pdf) Seems that this 'classics' study focuses on lit, drama, and religion and doesn't mention language so that clears that one up!
(http://www.ex.ac.uk/classics/programme_specs/CH%20CS-French.pdf)

Oh poo! Mach got here first, but I'll post it anyway!

From the current Exeter University prospectus: (http://www.ex.ac.uk/admin/extrel/ugp2005/degrees/classics_programme.shtml)
BA in Classical Studies and French

No previous knowledge of Latin or Greek is required.

In these Combined Honours degrees you will take two, not four, modules in Greek and Roman history, literature or culture each year. The study of Latin or Greek is not required. Please see Classical Studies and Theology (http://www.ex.ac.uk/admin/extrel/ugp2005/degrees/theology_programme.shtml#Classical Studies and Theology) for details of the Theology modules. For details of the English, French, German, Italian, Russian, Spanish and Philosophy modules please refer to the relevant School entry.

Oh poo! Mach got here first, but I'll post it anyway!I'm totally amazed that they feel you can properly study the literature of a culture without speaking the language! There is so much that is missed in any translation... particularly (and this is just my opinion) in Greek... ah well, it clears up the mystery though!

I signed up for Classics "A" level many years ago, and that did not include any languages at all. I didn't do it in the end because it wasn't possible to combine it with the other subjects I chose.

I signed up for Classics "A" level many years ago, and that did not include any languages at all. I didn't do it in the end because it wasn't possible to combine it with the other subjects I chose.Yeah... but at university... well, it's just a personal thing. I love languages and it baffles me to think of studying a culture and not learning their language because the language is such a rich resource, and of course because otherwise you're depending upon a translator to give you the whole meaning of the lit and religion - something I don't think can be truly done...

Yeah... but at university... well, it's just a personal thing. I love languages and it baffles me to think of studying a culture and not learning their language because the language is such a rich resource, and of course because otherwise you're depending upon a translator to give you the whole meaning of the lit and religion - something I don't think can be truly done...I agree. But I suppose we can assume that classical mythology is one of the dominant layers, since Jo has half a degree in classics.

I agree. But I suppose we can assume that classical mythology is one of the dominant layers, since Jo has half a degree in classics.That's what it looks like.... except, well it seems to me that Celtic mythology and English legends are more dominant. Maybe that's just what I've looked for though.

I just wanted to comment on this:
The quote is from Book 4 p. 200-201 Mad-Eye Moody
"...you were clearly born under the baleful influence of Saturn...Saturn was surely in a position of power in the heavens at the moment of your birth..."

Voldy was in power at the moment of Harry's birth. Saturn rules Capricorn. Voldy is a Capricorn. Voldy is linked to Harry's via the scar.

Saturn (Cronos) kills his father, Uranus in mythology.

I believe J.K. has a "planet code." for Harry may be Saturn.

Well, we know that Voldemort killed his father, Harry's father was killed by Voldemort-I can assume-
Is there any chance that Harry could have had Capricorn as his moon sign? There would be another connection to it there. I am not sure those are as easy to find out though. I tried to find mine and it said it was Virgo, which is the same as my sun sign!

Voldy's code may be Mars for War.
I am pretty sure Ron's code is Jupiter.
Hermione's code is...wait for it...Mercury! (Hermes)

Many people have noted that Harry's dreams seem to come true, Ron's jokes seem to come true, Trelawney's predictions seem to come true...I think J.K. Rowling is throwing the plot in our face here and if we can decode her, we will be able to understand where she is going with the story.

She is giving us clues with such humor and since the characters ( right up to Dumbledore himself!) discount Divination, she can have a field day telling us all kinds of things and we laugh and trot on elsewhere to ponder the mystery of Blaise's gender or whatever.

It is smoke and mirrors. (especially mirrors!) :)
By the way, great job WeaselDiva! I noticed the uses of planets and Astrology within the books, but I failed to make the connection you have made. It's a great theory that there is a planetary code.

Ok. What I saw in Trelawney connecting Saturn with Harry is simply that it was another example of Harry and Voldemort's connection. So, maybe I have also jumped to the assumption that Voldemort must be a Capricorn.(although I would almost bet on it-but we don't really know.) Voldemort may not be a Capricorn, but either way-Harry is connected to a force of darkness via his scar, that is as you say, was at the height of his power around the time of Harry's birth.

Hermione=:tu: She is a Virgo which is a sign ruled by the Planet Mercury a.k.a. Hermes. She is also always right! I guess she delivers the message JK intends. She is the only other person besides Dumbledore that is good for taking serious. The others may lay out foreshadowing and all, but Hermione and Dumbledore are always good for accuaracies.

Harry= I have also always seen as being the Sun. For some reason, I think he will be more powerful than Voldemort, or anyone, could ever estimate. We all know that Voldemort transfered some of his powers to Harry but, it wouldn't be possible for baby Harry to have given back something? Either way, I see Harry as having some of Voldies powers and his own. I think Harry will have been powerful with out Voldemort transferring his powers.

What about Dumbledore? He is a very important character too. He has almost a God like presence through the stories. He is all Knowing and is good at coordinating people, even Harry. I have long associated Harry with the Sun-the sun having everything evolve around it. But Dumbledore could very well be the Sun like figure as well, coordinating the Order around him and his will. I guess I could go back and forth on Dumbledore and Harry both being easy to reference to the Sun (center of all ongoings), as Harry I could say, has even Dumbledore working around him.

Maybe Voldemort is Mars? The red star is brighter when he is in the forest in SS/PS. This could be argued for though. Mars seems to become bright everytime that he is on his rise(drinking unicorn blood, coming into power, etc...)-which does mean war is coming, but it seemed to become bright that night as a signal for bloodshed that would have happened if not for firenze. It seems that mars connects between harry and voldemort, each time that Voldemort endangers Harry. I think of this due to OOTP as firenze states that Mars indicates they are in the middle of two great wars. But he also says that the stars do not indicate so many little things that Trelawney says they do. They do not tend the small ongoings of the world. So apparently any interactions between Harry and Voldemort seem to be literally foretelling a war,(as we already know has started by the end of OOTP) as it causes for Mars to be brighter than usual. Voldemort seems to be the war bringer.

Perhaps we could view them each as having two planets. Just as in Astrology there is the Moon sign and the Sun sign. With Voldemort it would seem he would be under Saturn and Mars. Harry would be under the Sun and Possibly Saturn. Maybe we could put Dumbledore under the Sun and either Libra (which ever planet rules it-I think it's Venus?) or Mercury? Well, I guess it's how you see it. What is Dumbledores birthday? I have been making random assumptions but I am not sure about his birthday.

Well, this is a very interesting theory you have here. I really like it! I'll quit rambling on now!

There's some really good astrological work on this thread. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=17499&page=1&pp=20) As it turns out, Harry has moon in either pisces or aries.

That's what it looks like.... except, well it seems to me that Celtic mythology and English legends are more dominant. Maybe that's just what I've looked for though.
The dominant layer is the one the poster is most familiar with. ;)

The dominant layer is the one the poster is most familiar with. ;)Very true! :lol:

Very true! :lol:Absolutely! That's why it's fun to get other opinions on the thing. Of course, those opinions are usually quite, quite wrong, but that's okay! (joke, intentional....)

I'm really pleased about this actually, it supports a minor theory of mine about language and word usage and people who know at least something of language history...
Care to share this theory? I can't believe we won't manage to tie it in.

Harry= I have also always seen as being the Sun. For some reason, I think he will be more powerful than Voldemort, or anyone, could ever estimate. We all know that Voldemort transfered some of his powers to Harry but, it wouldn't be possible for baby Harry to have given back something? Either way, I see Harry as having some of Voldies powers and his own. I think Harry will have been powerful with out Voldemort transferring his powers.

Well, scientifically speaking, the Sun is the most powerful substance known to man, and, working on the "neither can live while the other survives" part of the propehcy...

*thinks*

The Sun (Harry) and the Moon (Voldemort) are opposites, they also never meet, so if they're opposites, working on the Ying and Yang theory of the Chinese...

They will both die in Book 7.

BUT -- Harry has a Moon in either pices or aires, thanks whiz, so that complicates things...

*Thinks some more*

A dark side to Harry... Ity's like Galadreil said "In place of a Dark Lord (Voldemort) You will have a Queen (or in our case King - Harry)!

There's some really good astrological work on this thread. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=17499&page=1&pp=20) As it turns out, Harry has moon in either pisces or aries.
That is interesting! That is reforming a view of mine. Considering the known/associated characteristics with the different signs. Oh, I didn't really mean to get so into the Astrology...I guess I really liked the theory!:blush: Thank you!

Absolutely! That's why it's fun to get other opinions on the thing. Of course, those opinions are usually quite, quite wrong, but that's okay! (joke, intentional....)
That explains why I'm laughing hysterically. http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/r/rofl.gif

Well, scientifically speaking, the Sun is the most powerful substance known to man, and, working on the "neither can live while the other survives" part of the propehcy...

*thinks*

The Sun (Harry) and the Moon (Voldemort) are opposites, they also never meet, so if they're opposites, working on the Ying and Yang theory of the Chinese...

They will both die in Book 7.Does the fact that the moon has no light of its own and merely reflects the sun work into this theory at all?

That explains why I'm laughing hysterically. http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/r/rofl.gifThought you would be!

Good point, hold on...

Of course! The reflected curse! (only reversed this time!)

Good point, hold on...

Of course! The reflected curse! (only reversed this time!)Erm... maybe! How about - a shadow requires light for its very existence... Voldemort requires Harry for his? Disclaimer here - I don't actually believe this, but I'm extremely bored and willing to throw things out for the sake of discussion!

Hmm, that would also work, it's amazing what I can do sat at a computer pretty much all day, really...

Hmm, that would also work, it's amazing what I can do sat at a computer pretty much all day, really...Let's see... the other point of course is that the sun is the center while the moon a tuppenny little satellite!

But the moon can eclipse the sun!

But the moon can eclipse the sun!Only for part of the world at a time, and only temporarily. Meanwhle, the moon itself waxes and wanes monthly (quick! Reincarnation anyone?). Of course in many myths and cultures the moon is female...

To make the parallel work you have to find someone to be the earth, since the moon orbits the earth and not the sun. How about Dumbledore?



( :upset: my poor layers thread - what is happening to you! )

To make the parallel work you have to find someone to be the earth, since the moon orbits the earth and not the sun. How about Dumbledore?Possible. Tom orbiting Dumbledore...strange to think about. But then, Harry is the center of it all? :huh: When all was spinning in the beginning, the planets came from the globular sun, and moons came from the planets. *thinks hard to remember back to a long gone astronomy class* It's not consistent all of the way through, because Harry is younger and is the counter-Voldy, so to say. Unless...we think of it backwards! *frantically tries to make sense of it in head* DD is the teacher to them both, and so had to come first... Nah, I lost it.

Is there any way we could twist this around to make Harry and Voldy more equals? Their roles in this whole thing are basically just opposite each other, and as much as the moon needs sun to light it up, Harry wouldn't be Harry without Voldy. I'm reminded of something... How about a binary star system? Let me quick google something.

Edit: So in a binary system, two stars orbit around a point somewhere in between them. By studying their motions in juxtaposition with each other, scientists can determine different things about them. On second thought, this doesn't seem very relevant to Harry and Voldemort besides kind of showing their relationship.

From a literary point of view, anyway, Harry would be the sun, because it is all from his point of view, it all revolves around him. That is all we can say for certain, I think.

I have since found another, more scholarly book, (Stations of the Sun) which states that Lugh was not a sun god, but rather someone gifted with an extraordinary amount of skills...good at basically everything. (but folk tales describe him as 'shining like the sun.')Just for consideration, a book I failed to read through was an anthology of essays called 'Archeology of Shamanism' (I think), and one of the writers made a case that the ancient artworks of figures with rays radiating from their heads were not representing sun gods, but shamans in the trance state, in touch with the spirit world.
the thing I remember most about him was his battle with the formori where he killed Balor (evil eye - a monster who could scorch the earth just with his gaze - and kill everyone in sight of course!) I believe that Lugh was drowned finally... Oh, also interesting to note that he is associated with lightning in some sources...This sounds like much of the material discussed in 'Hamlet's Mill' and immediately while reading it came some associations --scorching the earth with his gaze is like the basilisk and like the myth of Phaeton -the sun out of control. The drowning can represent descent below the horizon, as Saturn or other bodies I can't remember are relegated to the underworld, usually to sleep there.

The association of Voldemort with Saturn bears examining. His killing his father is as Saturn killing (but I think in myth it was castrating?) Uranus. Even with the pure-blood preoccupations, a father being muggle is a poor excuse for killing him. Also Voldemort's possession of Harry in the Ministry was imaged as a serpent coiling Harry, which is the symbol of time coiling the universe. Saturn =Chronos =time.

The dominant layer is the one the poster is most familiar with. ;)

Most mythologies from various cultures are of similar universal themes. The names and places have been changed to protect the innocent. For example, in almost every culture, you will find a story about the king's sacrifice to save his people. This is usually prefaced by the king's trials as a prince to prove his worthiness to be king. Whether it's Christ's story, King Arthur, the Pharohs' annual rituals or the cult of Mithras or other religions or cultures, similar themes will exist, so everyone should be able to relate. It's what makes these stories and HP so popular.

Most mythologies from various cultures are of similar universal themes. The names and places have been changed to protect the innocent. For example, in almost every culture, you will find a story about the king's sacrifice to save his people. This is usually prefaced by the king's trials as a prince to prove his worthiness to be king. Whether it's Christ's story, King Arthur, the Pharohs' annual rituals or the cult of Mithras or other religions or cultures, similar themes will exist, so everyone should be able to relate. It's what makes these stories and HP so popular.
There you go. Hamlet's Mill in a nutshell. The basic precession myth.

Harry is the sky/god, hero/king of the aquarian age, by accident or design I'm not sure. But Harry Potter seems to be the human manifestation of the deity, the second person of the triune god, for the coming World Age. And it's entirely fitting that the manifestation of deity in the Age of Aquarius should be a wizard, a magician, an astrologer, an alchemist. The connections to the seasonal points and midpoints are unmistakable.

The most amazing thing to me, sometimes, is how the universe chose Dan Radcliffe to give his face to this phenomenon. Amazing........ ;)

whizbang121 - I think the hero/king theme is so obvious in HP and I think JKR chose this theme on purpose and has built her world around this myth. It is so universal and basic that it resonates with all peoples and of all ages. It's a Jungian archetype. It's a shared dream. Everyone and everything rotates (hehe) around this theme.

Maybe there won't be a sun code until the end as the sun & moon are symbolic of the final stages in alchemy.

Hermione is a Virgo which is an earth sign.

So you have Harry, Ron, and Hermione - Sun - Moon - Earth at the completion of the series. They just are not there yet, hence we have the other planet codes like Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury codes for now.

Harry is the sky/god, hero/king of the aquarian age, by accident or design I'm not sure. But Harry Potter seems to be the human manifestation of the deity, the second person of the triune god, for the coming World Age. And it's entirely fitting that the manifestation of deity in the Age of Aquarius should be a wizard, a magician, an astrologer, an alchemist. The connections to the seasonal points and midpoints are unmistakable.

I think another take on this is that Ron is the sacrificial person. Harry is the Potter, the God; he certainly has Might and a Wrath of God attitude!

Hermione is Sophia, Wisdom, Holy Spirit.

Ron:
1. King
2. born in March (in like a lamb out like a lion or vice-versa I always get that saying mixed up),
3.Prefect (shepherds the other kids around)
4.Casts out demons (garden gnomes & beasties in Grimmalud Place)
5.Jesus was born in a manger (bin)
6.Ron's first broom was a Shooting Star
7.The Star of Bethlehem (per some theorists) was actually in the constellation of Pisces
8. "Ronald Lives" Ollivanders
9. Jesus was raised by loving parents and had siblings.
10. Red King, final stage in alchemy, and another label for Philosopher's Stone.

"I never thought it would be me, I always thought it would be you Harry." Ron in Order of Phoneix upon receiving the prefect's letter.

Switching the heroes at the eleventh hour would certainly be...unexpected.

By way of explanation, I got this idea from the visuals of the Prisoner of Azcaban movie.

The Grim takes Ron (wearing a royal purple sweater w/red t-shirt) underground to the Shrieking Shack (Tomb). Later, he is brought up out of the ground and stands suspended between first Harry and Sirirus then Harry and Hermione. The body posture is symbolic of hanging on a cross.

Later in the infirmary, Dumbledore stands over Ron, who is now wearing just the red shirt and looks all priestly, oops I mean Wizardly, and hits Ron on the bloody wound.

Much as I hate to say it, Ron may come down with a bad case of improperly dead, which is the only way one can be resurrected in J.K. Rowling's universe.

And, no offense to Ron, but if there is a way to get yourself improperly dead, I'm sure he can find it. :)

Many Christians are so Jesus oriented they forget the other two parts of the Trinity. So if some story has any kind of Chrisitan layer in it, it is assumed that Christ must be the centerpiece.

God, the Potter, has to sacrifice the thing he would miss the most to save the world. God is the central figure in this story, if my theory here is on target.

So maybe the books are about God, the Potter. Christ and the Holy Spirit are the sidekicks.

Harry is the Seeker, the alchemist, the Creator. Ron is the Stone. Did you ever notice that the name "Ronald" has the letters "Lord" in it?

Maybe there won't be a sun code until the end as the sun & moon are symbolic of the final stages in alchemy.

Hermione is a Virgo which is an earth sign.

So you have Harry, Ron, and Hermione - Sun - Moon - Earth at the completion of the series. They just are not there yet, hence we have the other planet codes like Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury codes for now.
How are you associating the Moon with Ron? Wouldn't it be more likely Lupin or Luna? (Who I believe are father and daughter.) Harry, Ron and Hermione work out to Sun, Neptune, Mercury or Fire, Water, Earth.



Ron:
1. King
2. born in March (in like a lamb out like a lion or vice-versa I always get that saying mixed up),
3.Prefect (shepherds the other kids around)
4.Casts out demons (garden gnomes & beasties in Grimmalud Place)
5.Jesus was born in a manger (bin)
6.Ron's first broom was a Shooting Star
7.The Star of Bethlehem (per some theorists) was actually in the constellation of Pisces
8. "Ronald Lives" Ollivanders
9. Jesus was raised by loving parents and had siblings.
10. Red King, final stage in alchemy, and another label for Philosopher's Stone.

"I never thought it would be me, I always thought it would be you Harry." Ron in Order of Phoneix upon receiving the prefect's letter.

Switching the heroes at the eleventh hour would certainly be...unexpected.

By way of explanation, I got this idea from the visuals of the Prisoner of Azcaban movie.

The Grim takes Ron (wearing a royal purple sweater w/red t-shirt) underground to the Shrieking Shack (Tomb). Later, he is brought up out of the ground and stands suspended between first Harry and Sirirus then Harry and Hermione. The body posture is symbolic of hanging on a cross.

Later in the infirmary, Dumbledore stands over Ron, who is now wearing just the red shirt and looks all priestly, oops I mean Wizardly, and hits Ron on the bloody wound.

Much as I hate to say it, Ron may come down with a bad case of improperly dead, which is the only way one can be resurrected in J.K. Rowling's universe.

And, no offense to Ron, but if there is a way to get yourself improperly dead, I'm sure he can find it. :)

Many Christians are so Jesus oriented they forget the other two parts of the Trinity. So if some story has any kind of Chrisitan layer in it, it is assumed that Christ must be the centerpiece.

God, the Potter, has to sacrifice the thing he would miss the most to save the world. God is the central figure in this story, if my theory here is on target.

So maybe the books are about God, the Potter. Christ and the Holy Spirit are the sidekicks.

Harry is the Seeker, the alchemist, the Creator. Ron is the Stone. Did you ever notice that the name "Ronald" has the letters "Lord" in it?
Mundungus redeemed himself slightly in Mrs. Weasley's eyes by rescuing Ron from an ancient set of purple robes that had tried to strangle him when he removed them from their wardrobe. If, as you suggest, and you may be onto something, Ron plays the role of the Avatar of the Piscean Age, Jesus Christ, then I believe he will sink beneath the waves, though he may not necessarily die. Perhaps he will disappear beneath the surface of the lake, like the Durmstrang ship did.

Avalon.

whizbang121 - I think the hero/king theme is so obvious in HP and I think JKR chose this theme on purpose and has built her world around this myth. It is so universal and basic that it resonates with all peoples and of all ages. It's a Jungian archetype. It's a shared dream. Everyone and everything rotates (hehe) around this theme.
Well, that makes three of us. :lol: Maybe four. Small club. I've been carrying on about the Precession of the Equinoxes for awhile now, and Barmy Codger has been working hard to present the case. The last page of the precession thread in my sig might be interesting. :)

Oh you guys have passed my level of intelligence with all this planet talk. But I do find the info on Ron interesting. Maybe he does have a larger role to play than we thought...but I don't think that the two of them will be able to "switch" places due to the prophecy.

To play off the "Potter= God" theory. I like it, but what if James is the God figure and Harry the Christ figure?? (I'm not saying I think that God is dead, but that he sacrificed so his only son could live, similar to the way God sacrificed his son to save the world)??? It's a stretch I admit.

DD should play into this theory somewhere...

Maybe we should change to a more "drama" themed layer?

I'm thinking along the lines of "Into the Woods"

The story is held together by the Narrarator. At the end of the first act the "cast" sacrifices the Narrarator in an effort to get the giant who was plauging them to leave them alone. This left the story without someone to guide it. After that the story goes down the tubes because there is mass chaos. People die, relationships are ruined, etc. until such a time where the remaining characters realize what has gone wrong and try to make it right.

What if DD is the narrarator and he is about to be sacrificed??

(did that make sense?)

WesleDiva, excellent post. I have to think about that. I've been an advocate of Harry as Christ-figure, not only because he is central to the story, but because the symbolism matches up. Harry is associated with the phoenix and the stag, both Christ symbols, possibly the sheep/ram/lamb as seen by Ron in divination class, and we know it is Harry who is the one with the power to vanquish Voldemort. But you lay out an interesting argument, that makes a lot of sense. I need to get some coffee to properly process all this.

Most mythologies from various cultures are of similar universal themes. The names and places have been changed to protect the innocent. For example, in almost every culture, you will find a story about the king's sacrifice to save his people. This is usually prefaced by the king's trials as a prince to prove his worthiness to be king. Whether it's Christ's story, King Arthur, the Pharohs' annual rituals or the cult of Mithras or other religions or cultures, similar themes will exist, so everyone should be able to relate. It's what makes these stories and HP so popular.

I just have to comment that King Arthur did not sacrifice himself. He was betrayed by his wife and his best friend, and goaded into battle by his illegitimate son and other of his knights. Ultimately, he was slain in battle through the trechery of his son, who wanted the throne. Not a Christ story, as I see it.

I just have to comment that King Arthur did not sacrifice himself. He was betrayed by his wife and his best friend, and goaded into battle by his illegitimate son and other of his knights. Ultimately, he was slain in battle through the trechery of his son, who wanted the throne. Not a Christ story, as I see it.

I would suggest that King Arthur's whole life was a sacrifice to the British people. Christ was betrayed also (Judas, one of Jesus' intimate 12) and a correlation can be made between the Pharisee (sp) who turned Jesus over to Pilate because he threatened their power and their throne and Arthur's son.

Well, that makes three of us. :lol: Maybe four. Small club. I've been carrying on about the Precession of the Equinoxes for awhile now, and Barmy Codger has been working hard to present the case. The last page of the precession thread in my sig might be interesting. :)No, I agree about the archetypes and the universal nature of some stories, I just disagree that the precession myth is The Answer to it all! BUT - I'm not going there again because I've already bored everyone to tears with it!

About Arthur - it's a much more difficult story cycle to deal with because it has accreted legend throughout the ages - and continues to do so. The 'historic' Arthur is one thing, the original 'mythic Arthur' is another and by the time you get to the first major re-telling the story is nearly unrecognizable!

About Arthur - it's a much more difficult story cycle to deal with because it has accreted legend throughout the ages - and continues to do so. The 'historic' Arthur is one thing, the original 'mythic Arthur' is another and by the time you get to the first major re-telling the story is nearly unrecognizable!

There isn't much out there about the "historic Arthur" if there even was one. But even looking at the mythic Arthur: Geoffrey of Monmouth, Cretien de Troyes, Sir Thomas Malory, all involve an Arthur who dies in a battle brought on by an illicit love affair with his wife (in Monmouth, Mordred has the affair, in the others, Lancelot.) Arthur is not sacrificing himself to save his kingdom; conversely, when he dies his kingdom dies with him (even in the legends), and the Germanic tribes overrun Britain, forever changing the ethnic face of the island. (Well, OK, that last bit is historic, it is hard to separate them, sometimes.)

I would be utterly depressed and forever hate JK Rowling if Harry were to die, then allowing the magical world to be overrun by Voldemort. Then his death (like Arthur's) would not be a sacrifice for his world, but would be for nothing.