Development of Snape's character through OotP, v.3

Subtle, take a chill pill, darling. Have some dark chocolate and tea. You'll feel better, I promise. ;)

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Edited to add:
Oh my GOSH!!!!!!!!!!!! I just made fourth year!!! On day 39! yeah for me! Party at the Shack! Cake and ice cream; it's on me!

Just kidding, vickilind--entirely and completely.... : )

My pursuit of appropriately aged character has caused havoc here--and I finally realized (very slowly) that, really, I could do as I pleased on the POV. A bit of a DUH, I admit...............

Well, that is understandable. The mileage does get to us sometimes, doesn't it?

Regarding who might have been a student Snape's first year of teaching, who also witnessed SWM:

SWM happened during OWLs '76 assuming Snape entered Hogwarts in '71 (born '60). So, anyone who was a first year in '75-'76 would be a seventh year in '81-'82 (Snape's first year teaching) AND a mere 4 years younger than Snape. However, if we're looking at how the Marauders' bullying affected Snape's first year of teaching, I think we can sensibly expand the possibilities to include those who were 1st yrs during Snape's 6th & 7th yrs as well, since the bullying did not stop. So, anyone who is 4 to 6 years younger than Snape.

I'm afraid we probably can't include Crouch Jr. unless we agree that he was a DE before he turned 18 AND while still at Hogwarts. I believe we must accept that he was 19 at his trial because it is such a precise age for JKR to say he 'looked'. How different does a 19 yr old look from an 18 yr old or 20? It's just her way of telling us his age. The age leeway comes in however in that we don't know exactly when the trial took place.

Because of the way the Dark Mark works, I'd say VM would insist all of his DEs be able to apparate. The twins were apparating (got their license) the summer they were 17 (why wait till summer? Is there a special class you must take over summer?) - so Crouch probably must be at least 17 before joining. So, it's possible that Crouch Jr. joined the DEs during Summer '81 just before Snape starts teaching. That would also mean he was only a DE for a very few months before VM disappeared, which 'could' explain his devotion (new recruit) If so, then we must look at not only how Crouch, Jr's last year of potions (and Snape's first year teaching) was affected by SWM but also the possibility that he might have known Snape was a DE.

I think Quirrel more likely. From what Hagrid says to Harry about Quirrell coming back so scared, Quirrell must have taught the year before ('90-'91) or Hagrid wouldn't yet know this. And so Quirrell did his sabatical in '89-'90. He also must have taught in '88-'89 for anyone to notice any difference, which would have been Snape's 8th year teaching (age 28). Now, we know Snape was the youngest teacher ever hired (at 21 in '81), so Quirrell must be at least 22 his first year, however we don't know what year was Quirrell's first. It could have been '88-'89 making Quirrell possibly 6 yrs younger than Snape, but then again DADA had an opening when Snape came in '81 - was that filled by Quirrell? If so, then Quirrell was older than Snape. We do know Snape applied for DADA every year, so perhaps it is more likely Quirrell started in '88-'89, taught a year, took a year off, then taught a year before Harry arrived. Unfortunately, we just can't tell Quirrell's age from any of this (except that Quirrell couldn't be more than 6 years younger than Snape)

So, Lockhart - also possible, but unlikely. Lockhart is teaching in '92-'93. So, Snape would be 32. If Lockhart were 4 to 6 years younger, then he would be between 26 and 28 - would that really be old enough to have done so many books? He may not have actually done anything in any of the books, but he did need time to find out about all these instances, track them all down, get their stories, obliviate them and then write it all up and get published. Maybe, but unlikely.

I do think we can count Bill Weasley in as a 1st yr during Snape's 2nd yr of teaching ('82-'83) from what JKR has said about the age differences between Percy, Charlie and Bill. This means Bill was born in '71 (Snape's 1st yr as a Hogwarts student), so Molly and Arthur were out of school, but Molly's brothers might have been there for some of the years of the Marauders' bullying of Snape - that's the only way I can see that Bill might have heard about SWM. We don't know exactly what year they died, but they were around for the Order photo which had to be after the Marauders left Hogwarts in '78 but before Lily was visibly pregnant in '79-'80. At which point Bill would have been between 7 and 9. Old enough that he would remember if his uncles had told him. And with the speculation that Fred and George were named after their uncles, Fabian & Gideon might have been just the 'prankster' sort to talk about SWM as this great prank pulled on a Slytherin.

I've decided that it suits my purposes to have Jr in 7th year and d--- the facts! : ) I'm just going to go play on the POV with a timeline that suits me...I can't make sense of timelines, anyway--so what difference could it make to me??? I should be so lucky that JKR would sue me over messing up her timeline! : )
:rotfl: Subtle! There is no way JKR is going to sue you over a little thing like that in a fanfic, lol. ;) At least you are going to be true to the characters. Take a look at some of the twists and turns of fan fiction all over the Internet and you'll see why she says some of them are "crazy." I was researching something the other day and came across one that was about Hermione as a "Happy DE"! It was appalling! :sad:

Remember, too, that JKR hasn't gone by the book with her full moon dates and things like that, lol. I think she would understand! :p

I like the idea of Barty being Snape's student. :evil: That is really interesting! :tu:

I was thinking along the same lines as Hwyla, too, and I believe the members of the band The Weird Sisters fall into the first or second year category.
Myron Wagtail, lead singer, born 1970 (First Year in 1981)
Kirley Duke, lead guitarist, born 1971 (First Year in 1982)
Donoghan Tremlett, born 1972, bass player (First Year in 1983)

What about "Auror Williamson" the young Auror with scarlet robes and a long ponytail seen at the Ministry of Magic. He seems maybe a bit older than Charlie Weasley. He seems as if he could be problematic for Snape if he was a first year, especially if he thought Snape was still a DE. :evil:

Sorry! Sheesh - in as much as Subtle is horrible with timelines I am not good with math thus my miscalculation on the age/years at Hogwarts! :shrug:

Originally Posted by subtle science
Alisel--Among other things--your observations about Quirrell would explain the relationship between him and Snape during PS/SS. Hmmmm!

The relationship between Snape and Quirrell has always struck me as rather odd. I got the impression that they knew each other quite well. Quirrell seemed to have a very accurate understanding of the limit to Snape's hatred of everything Potter.

"But Snape always seemed to hate me so much."
"Oh, he does," said Quirrell casually, "heavens, yes. He was at Hogwarts
with your father, didn't you know? They loathed each other. But he never
wanted you dead."

I'm wondering if the meeting in the Forbidden Forest could also be an indication of Quirrell's understanding of Snape's limits. He knew that Snape suspected him and had been sabotaging his efforts, but he didn't seem remotely worried about meeting him alone in the forest. It's as if he didn't consider Snape a threat as much as an annoying obstacle he'd have to work his way around. There's also another odd comment:

"Severus?" Quirrell laughed, and it wasn't his usual quivering treble, either, but cold and sharp. "Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he?

Quirrell knows that Snape really isn't that type at all. He even finds it amusing.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot
I think the whole 1959 or 1960 issue came up when JKR said that about Snape's birthday. I've always thought the Marauders were born in 1960, started at age 11, and finished at age 17 or 18. I agree with Alisel that 19 is too old, unless one of them missed an entire year.

You think that was what caused all that confusion? I wasn't confused about it at all until today, when I realised how vague she was about that. :lol: I assumed she was talking about GoF and that giving us two different ages for Snape simply meant that he turned from 35 to 36 sometime during the course of that book. Since we now know the exact date, and also know that Harry's fourth year corresponded to 1994/95, Snape would have been born in 1959, along with Lupin, whose birthday is in March. If Lily or any of the other Marauders were born during the period from 1 September to 31 December, they would have been born in 1958. Using that timeline, they would all have started at Hogwarts in 1970 and graduated in 1977. Unless any of them were born in July or August, they would all be 18 at that point. That also fits with what she says on her website about Sirius being "around 22" (vagueness again!) when he was sent to Azkaban. Since he was arrested on 1 November 1981, his birthday must be between that date 1958 and 31 August 1959. This differs from the Lexicon timeline, but I like mine better. :evil:

I think the "cut-off date" of 1 September is causing much of the confusion. There is a tendency to assume that people born in the same year will also be in the same year at Hogwarts, whereas it's really determined by which school year you were born in. Two people both born in 1960, for instance, would be in different years if one was born before 1 September and the other one after. One would be sharing a year with students born in 1959 and the other with students born in 1961.

Okay, that was more than a little off-topic, but unlike a lot of people, I happen to enjoy math questions.

And I just sit back in dumbfounded delight that--of course--the terriers not only come up with names, but do the math problems so as to determine the suitability! Many thanks!!!

Alisel--I think you're absolutely dead on about Quirrell: that makes so much sense it's difficult not to imagine that being the situation.

In the Forest, Quirrell doesn't seem so much frightened of Snape as of being found out. Quirrell stutters and is nervous...but that's how he pretty much is. And not much information comes out of him, except,

"d-don't know why you wanted t-t-to meet here of all place, Severus..."

"B-b-but Severus, I--"

"I-I don't know what you--"

"B-but I d-d-don't--" (p. 226, PS/SS, US paper).

It's Snape who says the most; he seems tightly controlled and wielding some authority--he sounds as if he's taking Quirrell to task, and Quirrell reacts with familiarity and submission...while trying not to say anything even remotely useful that could reveal what is actually going on.

(This scene also has one of my favorite Snape oddities of phrasing--"hocus-pocus"--that just doesn't sound wizardly at all.)

Well, if Alisle is correct about Snape as 35-36 during GoF '94-'95 (and I think she is - I'm afraid I thought it was during OotP, now looking at JKR's interviews I realize the interview was before bk5) that changes all the dates I mentioned a few posts back (my last).

That does mean Snape was born in '59 and started Hogwarts in '70-'71 - so SWM happened during OWLS '74-'75. That means 1st years of that year would be 7th yrs in '80-'81. The year before Snape starts teaching. So, the only kids that would have been at Hogwarts with Snape as teacher and student would have been those who were 1st yrs during Snape's 6th and 7th years (and so must be 5-6 yrs younger than Snape)

This also means that Snape was actually 22 when he began teaching, not 21 as I said before.

Sorry all that I didn't check the interview date before doing all the math before. Shame on me!

Just as an aside, another character whose age might relate to Snape is Lucius (41 in Fall '95 so began Hogwarts at 11 in '65 - 5 yrs older than Snape)

Okay, I admit it; I am completely lost regarding the fascination about who might have been in school with Snape and is in the books now. I would think we would have some indication of the memories from those people, wouldn't we? Or is it just typical fandom fascination?

Well Vickilind - I think we're looking for other opinions about Snape that come from someone more or less in his peer group other than the marauders, as well as how the marauder bullying affected others opinions of Snape.

I find the physical description of Snape in SWM as twitchy, not graceful and practically speechless compared to his current masterful use of words to be very interesting. So, I suppose I'm looking for any hints of how he could change himself so thoroughly. Was he the Snape of the present during his first year of teaching or are his teaching methods derived from living down a 'wimp' reputation from his school days? Unfortunately, it looks like the only 'witness' we have is Bill Weasley, who was a 1st yr during Snape's 2nd yr of teaching.

There is the possibility that the 7th yrs of that year would have seen Snape being bullied when they were 1st yrs. Would Snape's bullied past be gossip in the common rooms? Especially as a discussion between those taking NEWT potions complaining about Snape and those who didn't know him as teacher, but only as a marauder 'target'.

By the way, I find the description of Snape as twitchy in SWM to be quite interesting. It suggests someone constantly expecting to be attacked and so someone that jumps at every little noise or quick movement.

Originally Posted by hwyla
That does mean Snape was born in '59 and started Hogwarts in '70-'71 - so SWM happened during OWLS '74-'75. That means 1st years of that year would be 7th yrs in '80-'81. The year before Snape starts teaching. So, the only kids that would have been at Hogwarts with Snape as teacher and student would have been those who were 1st yrs during Snape's 6th and 7th years (and so must be 5-6 yrs younger than Snape)

Good point about the implications this has for other timelines. So none of those who were students during SWM would still have been at Hogwarts when Snape started teaching. That must have been a great relief.

Originally Posted by hwyla
There is the possibility that the 7th yrs of that year would have seen Snape being bullied when they were 1st yrs. Would Snape's bullied past be gossip in the common rooms? Especially as a discussion between those taking NEWT potions complaining about Snape and those who didn't know him as teacher, but only as a marauder 'target'.

Interesting questions. Harry's talk with Sirius and Lupin suggested that at some point during those last two years at Hogwarts, James became somewhat more sensible and Snape more aggressive. Depending on when, and how gradually, that change occurred, sixth or seventh year Snape might have as much, or more, in common with adult Snape than with the "target" we saw in SWM.

Originally Posted by vickilind
Okay, I admit it; I am completely lost regarding the fascination about who might have been in school with Snape and is in the books now. I would think we would have some indication of the memories from those people, wouldn't we? Or is it just typical fandom fascination?

:blush: Sorry. Instead of "Dev of Sev", you have been watching "Terriers at Play". Subtle unleashed us and we were having too much fun to stop once we'd found what she was after. I think we found a few items of general interest, though.

Fielding a question: If Quirrell was one of Snape's earliest students, what does their interaction tell us about his ability to deal with his current or more recent students, should any of those become Death Eaters?

The pursuit of which current characters could've been in Snape's first classes during his first year of teaching was sparked by me. I set the terriers off--and for purely selfish reasons: there's thread called Snape's Point of View, and I'm working on scenes from Snape's first teaching day (It's a gauntlet thrown down by PotionStudent). As I'm hopless about timelines--never mind figuring them out myself, but even reading them!--I figured this group would be The Source. As it has proven to be. (By the way, the POV can be a rather entertaining place--it's a bit on the slow side these days, but, in the fine tradition of Monty Python, "it's not dead yet.")

But a few interesting bits have come out of all this...It's intriguing to think that Snape could've possibly taught Lockhart, depending upon Lockhart's own timeline, or, particularly, Quirrell--I think that could, as Alisel has observed, gone a long way to explain the relationship between Quirrell and Snape.

And Ginny's report of Bill's attitude--"'Bill doesn't like him either,' said Ginny, as though that settled the matter" (p. 69, OotP, US hardcover)--is one of those odd moments in the books that falls with a clunk, making you wonder what's the rest of it (another, for instance, is the careful note of Snape's gripping the chair back in CoS, when McGonagall announces a student has been taken). At this point in the books, one has to ask, 'Who cares what Bill thinks?' We've barely seen him--why mention his opinion, and have Ginny be so definitive about it? Does this actually mean anything, or is it just a passing hiccup? It seems to reflect a general dislike of Snape on the part of all of the Weasley kids--but nothing hot or passionate (Fred calls him a "Git" "idly")...and none of the kids present in that scene are anything one would call dedicated scholars.....

(if you don't believe me, let me just say that I am notoriously unclear and hazy about what day is my birthday--

:lol: Don't worry, I'll remind you. ;)

The relationship between Snape and Quirrell has always struck me as rather odd. I got the impression that they knew each other quite well. Quirrell seemed to have a very accurate understanding of the limit to Snape's hatred of everything Potter.


Quote:
"But Snape always seemed to hate me so much."
"Oh, he does," said Quirrell casually, "heavens, yes. He was at Hogwarts
with your father, didn't you know? They loathed each other. But he never
wanted you dead."



I'm wondering if the meeting in the Forbidden Forest could also be an indication of Quirrell's understanding of Snape's limits. He knew that Snape suspected him and had been sabotaging his efforts, but he didn't seem remotely worried about meeting him alone in the forest. It's as if he didn't consider Snape a threat as much as an annoying obstacle he'd have to work his way around. There's also another odd comment:


Quote:
"Severus?" Quirrell laughed, and it wasn't his usual quivering treble, either, but cold and sharp. "Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he?



Quirrell knows that Snape really isn't that type at all. He even finds it amusing.

Wow, great catch, Alisel, I'm impressed! :clap: The first quote, where Quirrell says "he was at school with your father, didn't you know? They loathed each other" makes it sound like Quirrell witnessed Snape's 6th and 7th year. Because of the "each other". In SWM, in fifth year, it seems much more of a one way street. However, if we are to believe that Snape started to get his own back during 6th and 7th year, it would make more sense to say that they loathed each other, not just that Snape loathed James.

However, in the second quote, it seems clear that Quirrell isn't even remotely scared of Snape. It sounds as if he knows Snape as "the Dark Arts loving oddball". "He does seem the type" sounds like he knows about young Snape's reputation for being "up to his eyeballs in the Dark Arts". Also, "he does seem the type" sounds like he's acknowledging that students find him frightening - and thus prone to being classified by students as a "bad guy" - but that he himself finds him not even remotely dangerous. Which makes it sound like he has seen him as the humiliated and powerless victim in SWM or similar.

But a few interesting bits have come out of all this...It's intriguing to think that Snape could've possibly taught Lockhart, depending upon Lockhart's own timeline,

Could be, but something that makes me think Lockhart is a bit older, is the fact that Molly Weasley likes him (fancies him, as Fred or George put it). Mollly is - er, around 50? Would she have a crush on a 30-year-old?

Commence fly-by post--I haven't been in here in ages.

I hate the whole Quirrell thing, because it's so hard to ascertain what exactly is him talking and and how much of him has been affected by his permanent headache. While I think you all are spot-on about Quirrell's timeline, it's also possible that Voldemort fed him information about Snape.

His flippant attitude that Snape 'does seem the type' could imply quite a lot: would he say that if he was aware that Snape was a DE? I get the feeling that Quirrell sees Snape as 'all bark and no bite,'--not the sort of attitude one would have toward a DE who would presumably have 'bitten' quite a lot.

Norbertha: Sure Molly could have a crush on someone 20 years her junior! Happens all the time, because a crush isn't real. I mean, how many adult women go nuts over Dan Radcliffe? (Not I, said the cow.)

vickilind: I don't know that it applies to the folks in this thread so much, but many writers of marauders-era fan fiction worry obsessively over who would have been around during their (and Snape's) school years. Particularly, a lot of people want to create a closer relationship between Snape and Lucius during their school years than I think their age difference would have accomodated.

*goes back to lurking and being too all-around busy to keep up with Dev of Sev, much to my chagrin*

This is off-topic of me, but I don't believe Molly is in her 50's. Bill, her 1st child is born in '71 - so it is entirely possible that she finished Hogwarts as late as '70 - putting her as young as 43-44 in bk5. I've always thought that the way Arthur and Lucius fought with fists instead of wands in bk2 in the bookstore implies much more of a childhood history of disagreement than any differences between them in adult situations at the ministry. So, I kind of see the Weasley parents as just a few years older than Lucius.

However, since her age came up in relation to Lockhart's age - I've got to say I still don't think Snape taught Lockhart (he would have been too young to have written so many books. However, it is more likely that Lockhart was a student at the same time as Snape was being bullied - it would help to explain why Lockhart wasn't worried about Snape partnering him for the dueling exhibition, if he expected Snape to be as useless as he was in SWM

Excellent points, hwyla--Although I also could see Lockhart's being totlally oblivious to everything that went on at school!
But his inability to perceive any danger during the dueling club seems to indicate a misplaced confidence due to underestimation--after all, he knows he's a fake, so it can't be that he is so convinced of his talent!

(And--aside: I think I've got the characters to be going on with--Jr's going to bend the timeline by a year and be in class; it's too good an opportunity!)

Oh, albie, I just can't see Snivellus pulling off his Darth Vadar helmet and embracing the Force. He's just too good at being bad....

Can you see us going to version 3 of "Development of Umbridge's character?" Nah, she's another Petunia when it comes to depth.
But Snape is so ambiguous. He could go either way. But he's not a wimp, he's not conflicted about his shifting loyalties. He just wants to be on the winning team.
But don't expect warm fuzzies.

Oh, and the last name is German. So my husband says, and he has the genealogy to prove it.

Snape is actually an old Yorkshire Name and means: Winter Pasture, Bog Land, Poor Pasture, well you get the idea... oh and just to throw in a freebie, Granger means: Keeper of the grain, also an old english name more Yorkshire than anywhere else methinks! She is also (excuse my language, Mudblood and Mud fertilizes Poor Soil!) :evil: :slyth:

However, it is more likely that Lockhart was a student at the same time as Snape was being bullied - it would help to explain why Lockhart wasn't worried about Snape partnering him for the dueling exhibition, if he expected Snape to be as useless as he was in SWMYeah, it looked like Gilderoy didn't know who he was up against in the Dueling Club. Harry himself said he would've been running.. :rotfl:

That would make Molly in her early 40's fancy a young man in his late 30's.. much more plausible. (However I agree with Mrs Flamel, I'm the first to admit I'm 26 and crazy about Dan!)

Originally posted by Mrs Flamel: vickilind: I don't know that it applies to the folks in this thread so much, but many writers of marauders-era fan fiction worry obsessively over who would have been around during their (and Snape's) school years. Particularly, a lot of people want to create a closer relationship between Snape and Lucius during their school years than I think their age difference would have accomodated.

So, it's typical fan obsession. That explains a lot.

I always pictured Molly as being my age; mid 40's. Lockhart I pictured mid to late 40's. Don't know why, I just do. What years are the books taking place in? Maybe that is my confusion. I guess I don't keep track of that kind of stuff. Does that make me not as nuts as you all?

Hmmm...I didn't intend to come across as suffering from fan obsession. Only meant to get some assistance in order to answer a writing challenge. My bad.

Please forgive me if this has been canvassed on earlier versions of this thread . . .

What do you guys think about the possibility/probability that Snape will ever put his past behind him and see Harry for only his actions? I realize at this point that Harry and Snape's enmity has been mutually earned - but I also feel that it's inevitable that Harry will come to a better understanding of Snape's true identity (and yes, I am assuming for now that Snape is working for the 'good side'). Right now, he's the blackest of blackhats in Harry's opinion, but I do feel something will happen to change Harry's view later on in the books (why do I think this, I don't know - maybe just because it would seem strange to keep their relationship as is to the end of the book, considering how much print JKR has given to it). But I'm not sure if the same is true for Snape.

Any thoughts on this one?

Okay, I admit it; I am completely lost regarding the fascination about who might have been in school with Snape and is in the books now. I would think we would have some indication of the memories from those people, wouldn't we? Or is it just typical fandom fascination?
vickilind: I think Subtle just wanted to get our ideas to help her with something she's writing for the Snape's Point of View Thread. She was asking about it here, since this is one of the few threads totally about Snape, where the other Snape fans might be hanging out. Makes sense to me!

Billywiggy: Mutual understanding between Snape and Harry is something I hope for, and I think it has to happen for some healing to occur. It makes no sense for them to be enemies on into the future, because they have to work together to defeat Voldemort.

We all hope that Snape and Harry can come to some kind of mutual understanding, if not a total cease-fire. The biggest stumbling block to such an understanding is their own perceptions. Harry has to learn to see Snape for who he really is. The same goes for Snape. Of course, Harry has to think for himself, not allow his opinion to be swayed by his memory of Sirius (and Sirius' opinion), and Ron's vocal dislike of Snape. Snape has to overcome his determination to see Harry as nothing more than mini-James. I think that Harry has to make the first move, I can't see Snape letting go without a catalyst.

I think part of the story arc has to include some sort of resolution between Snape and Harry--too much has been made of the enmity for this to be just a little subplot. Plus it ties into the theme of choices--each needs to choose to change his point of view, to let go of past injuries. There is also the whole idea about working together, despite differences, as the Hat has been campaigning.

I agree that it seems most likely that Harry would need to make the first move. I wouldn't mind it if JKR pulled a fast one, though, an added a twist there and had Snape do it; but I think it is more likely to be Harry. And I still say that it could be sparked by something as simple as an apology from Harry.

I do hope that some progress is made in HBP--the catfights between the two are entertaining...but five books is getting long enough. Time to start the development in the other direction.


[Shameless self promotion added in here...come visit Snape's POV if you want to see the results of the the terrier digging. Well, two thirds of the results, thus far....] [Sorry. Shameless].

I think part of the story arc has to include some sort of resolution between Snape and Harry--too much has been made of the enmity for this to be just a little subplot. Plus it ties into the theme of choices--each needs to choose to change his point of view, to let go of past injuries. There is also the whole idea about working together, despite differences, as the Hat has been campaigning.

I agree that it seems most likely that Harry would need to make the first move. I wouldn't mind it if JKR pulled a fast one, though, an added a twist there and had Snape do it; but I think it is more likely to be Harry. And I still say that it could be sparked by something as simple as an apology from Harry.

I do hope that some progress is made in HBP--the catfights between the two are entertaining...but five books is getting long enough. Time to start the development in the other direction.


If it ever happened that Dumbledore was not available to support Harry in his usual role, or that any of the others who normally support him (i.e. Ron, Lupin, Hermione etc) are not qualified to take Harry further wherever he will need to go in his future tasks - it may be that he'll have no choice but to accompany Snape & accept his mentorship. And do so in a way that involves a fair amount of mental intimacy as well - something both parties have already found extremely uncomfortable. And both of them are proud (to say the least) - so there could easily be a very major standoff between the two of them that could hold up progress in a serious way (involving wasted opportunities, loss of life even). But that's just me speculating; I am not one to believe that S is/will secretly going back to Vold - that break was final - but I can believe in the possibility of that increasing frustration leading him to break. Again my personal guess is that maybe the next step for the two of them is to try for an equal footing of some form.

(sorry for that ramble - had been skimming most of the thread)

Hmm... I'd personally like a lot to see Harry and Snape on better terms. I can't imagine them sharing a good laugh and butterbeers, definitely ;), but they /have/ to resolve all those misconceptions (Harry's influence by Ron, Snape's filter seeing only James in Harry). Maybe it could start with Harry sincerely apologizing to Snape for the pensieve dive? I think that'd catch Snape off-guard, he is probably not used to receiving apologies, and that would force him to separate Harry and James.

And definitely, go read Subtle Science's latest additions in Snape's POV! There is a slice a Breton cake waiting over there for all visitors

Maybe it could start with Harry sincerely apologizing to Snape for the pensieve dive? I think that'd catch Snape off-guard, he is probably not used to receiving apologies, and that would force him to separate Harry and James.

Both of them doing something like that would take a heck of a lot of humility - on both sides - maybe that would be another key to the thing. Which also would require them to stop bashing each other over the heads with their mutual pasts.

& that Breton cake sounds nice - I'll go grab some. Crunchy little salt surprises=goood.

Subtle, no apology necessary! I was just confused and trying to figure out where the discussion was going. Now that I know it is just fan fascination, I'm okay with it. Please, never apologize; you are brilliant!

As for the change between Harry and Snape; it has to come. That is one of the reasons I think DD will die in HBP. With the death of DD, so much will Have to change. The relationship between Harry and Snape is just one. Snape would grieve over the loss of his dear friend and mentor; so would Harry. It would give them something very much in common, which they haven't had up till now. Yes, I know they both have/had crappy childhoods, but it is easy for a teen to separate that from the adult they are looking at. With DD gone, there is something concrete and in the now to bind them, and change the way they look at one another.

I really don't expect Dumbledore to make it out of book 6--I breathed a sigh of relief in OotP; even though I thought it was a bit early for Harry to lose Dumbledore, the spoilers about the death of a major made me rather nervous. But it seems inevitable, as part of the motif of the passing on of power from mentor to student. (And the UK back cover certainly seems to be indicating that direction!)

It would take, I think, something earth-shattering for Harry and Snape to see each other clearly, and the loss of Dumbledore seems the logical nominee for such a blow. Silver ink pot, earlier, mentioned healing, and I think that might very well be the key idea, in a number of meanings and applications.

It also seems quite likely that Snape would become Harry's right hand man, as he has been for Dumbledore. Harry has his own support, Ron and Hermione, but he will still need an adult ally. And I don't see its being McGonagall. For all that Harry likes her better than Snape (understatement of the century), it's Snape with whom he's been more closely associated--and who has done more for Harry.

and...erm...

*wince*

fan fascination...

ouch.

and...erm...

*wince*

fan fascination...

ouch.

It's okay, Subtle, we still respect you. :-D

The only possible problem with that scenario is if Harry has (will) grown up enough to accept these things as opposed to trying to lay blame. It also depends on the manner of death of the character. I will say that I don't think it can be an overnight thing. There will have to be some time involved for them to realistically change their method of interaction.

Also, how much change can there logically be? If the "cover blown" theory is accurate, it could change quite a bit, but if Snape's cover isn't blown he will have to maintain the facade of DE for the Slytherins.

clkginny--Well, some, at least....

Harry's insistence upon blaming Snape for Sirius' death could be part of this. He's so far out in left field with his displaced anger and guilt that it could help him grow up quite a bit--if and when he realizes that he's standing out in left field.

Although I wouldn't be totally stunned if Snape looked somehow involved in Dumbledore's demise. Ultimate Voldemort revenge on a DE who turned 'traitor' and supported Dumbledore could be to feed said false information that leads to Dumbledore's dying. This would be speculation #147.

Eeeks, everyone, stop this! Dumbledore is not dying! I shiver at the thought - what would happen to Hogwarts? The series wouldn't be the same without him... No, I repeat: he is so not dying.
Understood, Jo? ;)

And your idea is soooo scary, Subtle... Nah. No. Nein. Non.

fan fascination...

ouch.
I want to let it be known that I never accused anyone here of being fanfic fanatics or whatever! That would be me, more likely. :p And plenty of other nice folks out there. I think it's brilliant to try to figure all these things out, and subtle, will you give a link to that POV thing you keep pimping?


he will still need an adult ally
*whispers* why not consider Remus along with Snape?

*whispers* why not consider Remus along with Snape?

I'm sure Lupin would be there for Harry, but the issue with that is, currently, that Lupin isn't at Hogwarts, while Snape is. This could change, but, so far, the trend is that each DADA professor teaches one year and that is it. Harry needs an ally at Hogwarts who understands what he faces. Currently only three teachers come close enough, and that is McGonagall, Hagrid, and Snape. As far as I can remember, none of the other teachers are in the Order.

Mrs Flamel--It's the thread called Snape's Point of View, in the Common Room. While, I suppose, it's quite fannish (*ow*), I've found it a very interesting way of trying out theories about Snape--would an interpretation of a scene from his POV still fit in with known facts?

Sorry, PotionStudent--I'm not looking forward to it myself; Dumbledore is my second favorite character and it will not be a good moment. But I do think it's inevitable.


clkginny--Your point is well taken: Harry needs someone who is available at school, and Lupin isn't. Lupin also falls into the McGonagall category: while Harry likes him, he doesn't have that strong an influence over Harry's attitudes and activities. There is something quite odd about how JKR manages to portray this--but Lupin, while so genial and affable, seems quite distant in many ways; Snape, who, I suppose, could somehow manage to be more unpleasant to Harry somehow, nevertheless appears closer. Both are secretive men, but Harry really does know more of Snape than Lupin; and it isn't the daily contact at Hogwarts that makes Snape seem closer, as McGonagall is also a distant character to Harry, despite their school interaction.

Just mulling over how this can be...It just seems to me that Harry and Snape, in their interactions, are far more intimate--they behave very badly around each other, showing each other their worst sides. Their mutual antipathy is very personal. They lose their tempers with each other, and there is nothing abstract about the reasons they loathe each other: the reasons are very, very concrete...and, again, on a personal level.

And I'm not even referring to Occlumency--this is just their typical interaction during four books. And Snape also has McGonagall and Lupin far outnumbered in the number of things he's already done to help/save Harry--despite the loathing.

Lupin comes off as a bystander, for all that he likes Harry.

Although, I really would like to see the hatchet buried between Snape and Lupin, too. More healing.

Subtle, insightful as always. I hadn't really considered the character interactions from that point of view, but it does seem that there is more distance with Lupin and Harry, although it didn't seem that way during PoA. What is the source of that dynamic? Is it just distance?

McGonagall and Snape are such an interesting comparison on so many levels. I think it is the behavior that Snape and Harry show each other that makes their relationship personal. McGonagall cares, but she distances herself from showing overt favortism and emotional connection. It seems that everyone humors her, as no one ever points out when she is emotional. Snape doesn't have this mentality. He shows overt favortism, as well as overt dislike. The interactions between them are more intense and the reader is brought more intimately into the scene. This connection has grown through the books.

Throw me another bone, Subtle and I'll try to gnaw the meat off it, too! :-)

Y'know...along the lines of the idea that Snape always disagrees with Dumbledore...the idea that Snape shows favoritism...I can't think of examples. We're told he favors the Slytherins, but when does he show blatant, undeniable favoritism? He wants Harry off the Quidditch team in GoF--but only Harry witnesses that ploy...Hmmmm......

Even in PoA, I don't find Lupin to be all that close to Harry. And it's not just because I finished reading the book and know how much he didn't tell Harry. Even as I was reading it, I kept wondering what this guy's deal was (I initially was right there with what Snape says at the end of the book--this one was in cahoots with Black; of course, he was, but not in a bad way. Nice parallel to the Snape red herring in PS/SS...albeit Snape was totally innocent of all suspicions)

It's the not telling that defines Lupin. In fact, McGonagall does it, too--in PS/SS when she tells Harry to forget about the Stone. She's more blatant about not giving Harry information (how strange to have her explain the Chamber in the CoS film, then); Lupin is, for lack of a better word (so nobody fry me for it; it's not necessarily a Lupin slam), more underhanded. In contrast to both, Snape is the fount of information in OotP--the man who most loathes Harry is the one most willing to answer his questions--if he'd shut up and stop interrupting!

Side note, because it connects to one of my top observations about Snape: he's the most honest character in the novels, despite the fact that he lives a lie. I happen to love the dichotomy. Only the centaurs match him for frankness--but they're impenetrable all the time; Snape is only so sometimes : ) . Snape strikes me as the character who is best described by "Ask and ye shall receive."

and subtle, will you give a link to that POV thing you keep pimping?It's here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=14001) and it's so good - I just spent my entire lunch-hour reading it! :clap:

I haven't quoted an entire post in a while. However, this looks to be an interesting discussion.

Y'know...along the lines of the idea that Snape always disagrees with Dumbledore...
I, myself, wouldn't phrase it that way, but Snape does seem to play devil's advocate a considerable amount of time. It seems more like offering his opinion (valid or not) and allowing Dumbledore to decide if there is any merit in it. I think we've debated the reasoning behind this before, but I don't think we've necessarily nailed it down.

the idea that Snape shows favoritism...I can't think of examples. We're told he favors the Slytherins, but when does he show blatant, undeniable favoritism? He wants Harry off the Quidditch team in GoF--but only Harry witnesses that ploy...Hmmmm......
My feeling on this has more to do with Snape's refusal to ever consider, or ask, Harry's side of it. That is, except for OoTP, when Harry's delightful comment of "deciding what hex to use on Malfoy" just reinforces Snape's opinion of Harry's arrogance. Perhaps I should have used a better word than favortism, but one doesn't come to mind (ugh, where did I put my thesaraus, anyway?). Snape, more than anyone else, should realize that appearances can be deceiving, but he doesn't bother to look beneath the surface. I am hopeful that the Occlumency lessons will end up affecting that but...it hadn't by the end of OoTP.

Even in PoA, I don't find Lupin to be all that close to Harry. And it's not just because I finished reading the book and know how much he didn't tell Harry. Even as I was reading it, I kept wondering what this guy's deal was (I initially was right there with what Snape says at the end of the book--this one was in cahoots with Black; of course, he was, but not in a bad way. Nice parallel to the Snape red herring in PS/SS...albeit Snape was totally innocent of all suspicions)
I felt that there was an emotional connection between Lupin and Harry in PoA, but I felt that it was lost somewhere between PoA and OoTP. Lupin seemed to genuinely care about Harry, and that came through for me. I did wonder what was up, and if I was wrong about Lupin, but in the end, even through his secrecy, I felt that it was there. I was convinced of Sirius's guilt at the time, though. One of the most telling scenes for me was the aborted grab at Harry's arm after Harry described his memories when the Dementors were around.

That could just be me, though.

It's the not telling that defines Lupin. In fact, McGonagall does it, too--in PS/SS when she tells Harry to forget about the Stone. She's more blatant about not giving Harry information (how strange to have her explain the Chamber in the CoS film, then); Lupin is, for lack of a better word (so nobody fry me for it; it's not necessarily a Lupin slam), more underhanded. In contrast to both, Snape is the fount of information in OotP--the man who most loathes Harry is the one most willing to answer his questions--if he'd shut up and stop interrupting!

Side note, because it connects to one of my top observations about Snape: he's the most honest character in the novels, despite the fact that he lives a lie. I happen to love the dichotomy. Only the centaurs match him for frankness--but they're impenetrable all the time; Snape is only so sometimes : ) . Snape strikes me as the character who is best described by "Ask and ye shall receive."
I agree that Snape's honesty affects how the emotional interplay goes on between these two. It is also interesting to consider how McGonagall's methods of controlling herself differ from how Snape controls himself. It makes me wonder, again, how much of what Snape shows is the mask, and how much the true character.

I should've been more clear about the "Snape always disagrees with Dumbledore line" (hey--it made sense in my head!): in fact, as we've discussed here--Snape only persistently disagrees with Dumbledore in PoA; his other protest comes in CoS and ends quickly. So--similarly: how many times...if he does...does Snape show favoritism to the Slytherins, as opposed to Harry Filter saying it's so?

In OotP, when Harry says, "I'm trying to decide what curse to use on Malfoy, sir," the reaction is, "Snape stared at him. 'Put that away at one,' he said curtly. 'Ten points from Gryff--'" (p. 852, US hardcover). As Chievrefueil has pointed out, Snape usually arrives in the midst of a Draco-Harry confrontation; here's one where Harry doesn't offer excuses and explanation, but rather tells the unvarnished truth (as opposed, most recently, to his lies during Occlumency lessons).

I, too, felt that Lupin responded to Harry in PoA--but also that he held back...as symbolized by the not-touch of the shoulder. Lupin holds back, physically, and emotionally. He is kind to Harry, and caring; howefver, he doesn't tell Harry all he knows. Now, I know the argument that he's being a good teacher--but he should be human, too, and he was supposed to be one of James' best friends. Yet he withholds the information from Harry: Lupin is a guarded character (makes sense, considering his backstory). So, while he is a good teacher and supportive of Harry...there's just something evasive about him that prevents true intimacy.

Yet Snape, who verbally is totally unsupportive of Harry, is never evasive: either he tells Harry exactly what he needs to know, as in Occlumency, or he tells it as he sees it--such as James' arrogance. The reader may not agree, but it is certainly the absolute truth so far as Snape sees it and he does not hold anything back. Lupin does. More than once.

I should've been more clear about the "Snape always disagrees with Dumbledore line" (hey--it made sense in my head!): in fact, as we've discussed here--Snape only persistently disagrees with Dumbledore in PoA; his other protest comes in CoS and ends quickly.
Also, the minor disagreement at the beginning of GoF. :angel:

So--similarly: how many times...if he does...does Snape show favoritism to the Slytherins, as opposed to Harry Filter saying it's so?
Here my argument isn't related to the Harry filter. Snape, as an occlumens, is quite capable of figuring out the truth, although I believe he doesn't due to his own moral code. Yet, there is the persistant comment of "Snape looking through" Harry, often stated similarly to Dumbledore "looking through" which seems to imply mind reading (or more appropriately, occlumency). Even with this ability, Snape never percieves that there is more to the Harry/Draco interactions than appears at the surface. (I agree that Snape always enters the scene when Harry appears as the aggressor) So, why does Snape never take Harry's excuses/reasons? I tend to think that (aside from the dislike of Potter males), this is related to his position as a spy. But it is a form of "favortism" (I don't think this is the best word for it, but lacking another... :huh: ).

In OotP, when Harry says, "I'm trying to decide what curse to use on Malfoy, sir," the reaction is, "Snape stared at him. 'Put that away at one,' he said curtly. 'Ten points from Gryff--'" (p. 852, US hardcover). As Chievrefueil has pointed out, Snape usually arrives in the midst of a Draco-Harry confrontation; here's one where Harry doesn't offer excuses and explanation, but rather tells the unvarnished truth (as opposed, most recently, to his lies during Occlumency lessons).
However, I think this was the first time that Harry pulled his wand first, although it was still in response to Draco.

I, too, felt that Lupin responded to Harry in PoA--but also that he held back...as symbolized by the not-touch of the shoulder. Lupin holds back, physically, and emotionally. He is kind to Harry, and caring; howefver, he doesn't tell Harry all he knows. Now, I know the argument that he's being a good teacher--but he should be human, too, and he was supposed to be one of James' best friends. Yet he withholds the information from Harry: Lupin is a guarded character (makes sense, considering his backstory). So, while he is a good teacher and supportive of Harry...there's just something evasive about him that prevents true intimacy.
You make a good point here. I still feel that there was more closeness in PoA than there is currently. I never felt that their relationship was truly intimate, but I do feel that Lupin caring about Harry was there. I feel that the only time since PoA that they've had the same level of closeness was at the DOM after Sirius's swan dive. I would rate Harry and Lupin as closer than McGonagall, but not quite the level of Harry and Dumbledore, in PoA, but then it seems to drop down to the same level as Mcgonagall after that. But like I said, that could just be me. :p

Yet Snape, who verbally is totally unsupportive of Harry, is never evasive: either he tells Harry exactly what he needs to know, as in Occlumency, or he tells it as he sees it--such as James' arrogance. Ther eader may not agree, but it is certainly the absolute truth ao far asa Snape sees it and he does not hold anything back. Lupin does. More than once.
I agree with this 100%.

ETA: I love these discussions with you. You make me consider my opinions a lot more than I normally do. :D

Lordy, my post was certainly a typo festival, wasn't it? A little too much haste there...need the Magic Decoder Ring to translate some of it!


Thanks, clkginny--and the same back. It's the discussion part that's the best: not arguing, not debating...just working through the material we've got at hand.....

I left out the beginning of GoF because it seems a very mixed moment. It's difficult to tell how much of Snape's ill temper is leftover from PoA and how much is a performance for the other Heads of School (particularly Karkaroff)--the latter is something someone else pointed out first. Snape doesn't exactly disagree directly with Dumbledore--he does it by way of criticizing Harry...and then McGonagall does her own indirect calling him on the carpet for his attitude (I can't see this ever playing out in the film as it does in the book--no criticism of Rickman and Dame Maggie; there's just no backstory from PoA to make it really work).

I agree that Lupin seems closer to Harry in PoA than McGonagall does--by a landslide. McGonagall is the one who truly is the consummate teacher: stern, unbiased (mostly--she has her Gryffindor moments), demanding. Unlike Snape, she just doesn't hate you. Slight difference!!! Lupin is a bit gray--he's distant and yet familiar at times. Once Sirius comes on the scene, Lupin takes the backseat....

Part of it is Harry--he emphatically prefers Sirius over Lupin (for instance, he never thinks that he has to speak to Lupin about anything). Lupin also seems to have business to attend to: whatever it is he does for the Order. Another interesting bit I find in JKR's writing is that she implies this, also, without really saying much about it. It just seems that Lupin is busy: he's got things to do and things on his mind....whereas...to put it bluntly...Sirius does nothing (partly, yes, because he must stay in hiding...but...um, really. Heck, the guy could cook a few meals and give Molly a break!!).

Hmmm...the favoritism....I'm trying to think if Snape actually is described as possibly using Legilimency on Harry during Harry/Draco spats. I know he does when Harry is 'up to no good' in PS/SS....

Even so, there would be the question of how much he picks up: if he only gets impressions, then he probably gets a very accurate perception of Harry and Draco having a back-and-forth spat...and his dislike of all things Potter is also likely to reinforce a rather parental attitude of 'I don't care who started it.' I'm not sure that there are all that many times, either, that he encounters such moments.

I think the favoritism falls into pretty much the same category as Harry's claims--and a general readership belief, then--that Snape treats all the students in his classes poorly and bullies everybody and never teaches anything...Harry says so, and Harry believes so...but Harry doesn't really look at the big picture, especially when/where Snape is concerned.

Hmmm...the favoritism....I'm trying to think if Snape actually is described as possibly using Legilimency on Harry during Harry/Draco spats. I know he does when Harry is 'up to no good' in PS/SS....
Well, I was going off of Harry's impressions of Snape's looks, but that could be direct Harry filter, as well. Harry is generally perceptive, but he does have those irritating blind spots.

Even so, there would be the question of how much he picks up: if he only gets impressions, then he probably gets a very accurate perception of Harry and Draco having a back-and-forth spat...and his dislike of all things Potter is also likely to reinforce a rather parental attitude of 'I don't care who started it.' I'm not sure that there are all that many times, either, that he encounters such moments.
Between the mask that Snape wears to fit his role as spy, the dislike that Snape has for all things Potter (love that phrasing!), and Harry's dislike of all things Snape, plus that unfortunate POV issue, it is entirely difficult to figure out what plays into Snape's actions. Part of the reason that I love this thread.

I think the favoritism falls into pretty much the same category as Harry's claims--and a general readership belief, then--that Snape treats all the students in his classes poorly and bullies everybody and never teaches anything...Harry says so, and Harry believes so...but Harry doesn't really look at the big picture, especially when/where Snape is concerned.
Too true. The hardest part is sifting any honest reaction out. Which you do an exceedingly good job at.

Hmmm...I'll have to consider this a little more. I still feel that there is more to the Harry/Snape reactions than immediately apparent, but sifting through the different effects of all these cross-puposes is difficult.

I think the idea that Snape never teaches anything is a great thing to look at. We see from Harrys POV and his dislike of all things Snape skews that view. Snape obviously does teach; the kids pass Potions. His teaching technique leaves much to be desired, but the kids do learn. Harry just never seems to "get" Snape. No matter what DD says, Hermione says, Remus says, gets through that thick skull of his. He doesn't Want to see a different side of Snape. We "think" we see more, but do we really? I think so; I really believe that Snape is on the good side and does what needs to be done, no matter how distasteful, or dangerous. (Occ lessons) And he has shown, time and again, that when it comes down to it, he can be trusted. I hope that in HBP, Harry really tries to take the blinders off in regards to Snape. If my hopes are right and Harry goes to stay with Remus for part of the summer, he might have the opportunity to see that fact. Remus, while he isn't friends with Snape, must understand what Snape is doing. Maybe there will be some insight into that for Harry.
Since I, too, think DD will buy it sometime in HBP, I think Snape will become more important to Harry. He is a constant in Harry's life. They will both be grieving a loved mentor. The situation will put all of the Order on the defensive and cohesiveness will be more important than ever. The two will HAVE to put aside differences to make it through the chaos that will most likely take place after DDs demise.

I'm with you, vickilind, I hope Harry removes his head from his posterior long enough to figure out Snape. Maybe DD will finally realize that Harry's enmity for Snape (and vice-versa) is too much of a hazard and finally reveals why he trusts him (DD trust Snape, I mean).

ALSO: Sorry if I made everyone feel bad with my last post, I guess I was feeling paranoid that day. At any rate, I got a veritable deluge of people quoting me out of pity. As fun as that is, I would prefer people quote (or reference, subtle) me when I say something meaningful or particularly witty. As it is...tomorrow right now, I'm doubting either will happen. So, I'm just gonna go to bed now.
I also find it funny that subtle is in bold. Just some irony for ya there.

I'm with you, vickilind, I hope Harry removes his head from his posterior long enough to figure out Snape. Maybe DD will finally realize that Harry's enmity for Snape (and vice-versa) is too much of a hazard and finally reveals why he trusts him (DD trust Snape, I mean).
I'm not sure that it's just about Harry figuring out Snape - from Harry's perspective what reason has he been given to do this? Snape doesn't make it easy for Harry to want to like him, or even respect him (whether it's a smokescreen or not). Harry is almost pre-disposed to dislike Snape from the first Potions lesson because he associates him with the pain he felt in his scar, but any pre-conception Harry may have had about Snape was confirmed by Snape's attitude towards him in that lesson. Whether or Snape's treatment of Harry is part smokescreen, it's certainly at least partly driven by Snape transferring his view of James onto Harry (similarity with Sirius anyone?). On the basis of this, and the continued antagonism between the two, why should Harry try to work out Snape?

I don't think that Dumbledore will reveal to Harry why he trusts Snape, unless Snape has OK'ed this first (not the most likely turn of events IMO). This would be a breach of Snape's trust and as such ooc for Dumbledore. If the reason for his trust is revealed, it will be with Snape's agreement, from Snape himself, or possibly Harry may discover this 'by accident'. (Perhaps one of the memories Snape put into the Pensieve relates to the reason why Snape has won Dumbledore's trust.)

I think that, when you look at the first Occlumency lesson, you see the real Snape and how he really teaches. It's got a layer of Harry Filter on it, but it's not too deep.

What I see in that lesson is a very, very tough and demanding teacher. He is sarcastic; the criticisms are biting--there's not going to be any coddling when you screw something up. Not going to be appealing to anyone who wants his/her self esteem boosted and nutured. Nor are you going to get effusive praise when you finally manage to get something right--because that only means you only did what you were supposed to do. Why would you get praised for that, you dunderhead? Praise is exclusively reserved for achieving something extraordinary...and Harry hasn't done that yet at all......Snape does not appear to have any problem with grade inflation.

No coddling also shows in his reactions to Harry's physical responses. As I've said before, Snape has a real 'take one for the team' mentality. Harry can fall as many times as he wants; as long as there's no arterial spray, he's fine and can try again. Again, look elsewhere for someone who's going to waste time asking, 'Are you all right? Should we stop? I don't want you to get hurt.' Snape doesn't care if Harry's all right; of course he's going to get hurt in this process. So's Snape, and you don't see him complaining.

It's a harsh, demanding branch of magic and they need to get it done. Snape hates Harry, but he's getting it done; he can't reverse the POV and he doesn't understand that Harry can't/won't do the same. Harry, in particular, can't see that Snape's severe manner and unvarnished critiques are meant to make him better. Harry never notices the biggest little detail of all: Snape's consistent use of first person plural throughout the lesson. For all Snape's obsession with teacher power and the separation between teacher and student, his pronouns send the message: we're in it together.

I believe I'll fill some time today before the Belmont Stakes is run by hunting down the 'favoritism' scenes. An afternoon of digging seems in order!

(Perhaps one of the memories Snape put into the Pensieve relates to the reason why Snape has won Dumbledore's trust.)

- and which could be the real reason why Snape got so utterly, barely in control angry when he caught Harry peeking in it. Maybe it wasnt his worst memory being seen that riggered it off, so much as the possibility that the next scene might have had something to do with that reason, something that was obviously very major & sensitive information (personal or otherwise).

& subtle_science - I'm going to try & google for that fanfic you mentioned at the beginning of this thread - would you have any reccolection of the site it was on?

After some discussion here about DD's possible death and whether it would bring Harry and Snape closer together - I've got to put in my 2 knuts about it.

1) I don't think DD's going to die - this goes back to McGonagal's chess game in Bk1 where many believe the white queen striking the Black Knight is a clue about Bellatrix killing Sirius - Note that Harry checkmates the White King (VM) while his king (DD) remains. I'm much more afraid for Ron's sacrificing himself to the queen so Harry can win the game.

2) I don't think that shared grief for DD would bring Snape and Harry closer together. I think the opposite. JKR works with 'different results' brought by similar situations based on how characters choose to act. If anyone is brought closer together by shared grief it will be Remus and Harry over Sirius.

It's been mentioned how 'distant' Remus seemed after Sirius came into Harry's life - I think that is just part of Remus' natural inclination to step back out of the picture, especially for Sirius. Partly him not wanting to stand up to Sirius (remember how he tried to hide behind his reading in SWM rather than 'do the responsible thing' and do his prefect duties which would upset Sirius & James) - I think he backed away to allow Sirius front stage after bk3 for multiple reasons. He probably assumed Harry would prefer Sirius who was proved innocent over himself, a proven werewolf (echos of Remus' fear of losing his friends during the Hogwarts years) I think he also saw Harry's instant 'love' for Sirius as typical of Sirius' charismatic personality and so allowed himself to be pushed aside as probably happened often in the past. I think with Sirius gone Lupin will step forward, not just out of love for Harry and grief over Sirius but also a feeling of responsibility.

The affect DD's death would have between Snape and Harry would be more of a sibling rivalry. I love Snape's character and think he has a lot going for him in the way of nobility, however I think his childhood was bad enough to leave him desperate for anyone to take notice of him (partly why I think he ended up a DE, VM appreciated him or at least pretended to do so in the beginning) and I think he is very attached to DD against his own wishes to depend on NO ONE! I'm afraid I think DD's death would drive Snape to isolate himself even more, telling himself 'see what happens when you care about someone, it'll only hurt you in the end' Meanwhile Harry would be oblivious to the idea that Snape is feeling any pain at all over DD's death, especially because Snape would be trying to hide it and even a minimum attempt by Snape to hide his feelings would probably confirm to Harry that Snape is 'happy' DD's gone.

I'm afraid more for Snape's death somewhere in Bk7 trying to save either Harry himself or Ron (remember his 'sacrifice' in chess game) or Lupin. I think the only way Harry will believe Snape is on the side of light is for Snape to do the Griffie thing and save someone while putting himself in extreme danger, suffering either death or at least incredibly close to death.

Now something I've wanted to bring up, but at the same time don't want to believe because it kind of messes up the 'redemption' pattern for Snape.
DD's testimony at Karkaroff's trial about Snape as a DE:
"I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." pg 590-591 GoF, pprbk Does this mean Snape was with the Order before going to VM? Perhaps going to VM purposively to spy for DD totally unknown by others? As I've said I don't like the idea of this because it implies Snape was the 'noble spy' from the beginning, which ruins the 'redemption' angle.

Another possibility would be he was with the Order, but turned on them to go to VM then returned - but I would find it hard to trust him unless of course he didn't learned occlumency till after he returned.

thestralgrin--Do you mean the fanfiction in which Snape thoroughly loses it and breaks down? No clue...I was aimlessly wandering the internet and have no idea where I ended up....................

hwyla--I really don't see Snape's isolating himself after Dumbledore's death; I can't think of anything in the books that would indicate such a response at this point. If he were to have a negative response to Dumbledore's death, it would seem more likely that he would seek revenge--that is more consistent with his behavior in the novels. And--he hasn't been particularly good at hiding pain and anger up to this point....

Lupin may step forward and become Harry's new guardian. But Harry's is moving beyond the point of needing such; the movement of his character is toward increased responsibility and independence as he shoulders his burden. Lupin also has seemed to be far too busy with mysterious work for the Order; perhaps he was concerned for Sirius' and Harry's relationship...but again: I can't really think of any canon for this--what I do see is that Lupin has work to do, whereas Sirius has little responsibility in the Order, since he must remain in hiding. Lupin doesn't seem to step back from Harry and Sirius' relationship so much as Harry steps forward and leaves Lupin behind in seeking an attachment to Sirius--perhaps sparked by Sirius' offer for Harry to live with him, as well as the revelation that Sirius was the one chosen by Lily and James to be Harry's godfather.

And Dumbledore's use of "rejoined"--I think he means that Snape started out as a good person; not that he was an Order member to begin with, but that he simply was not a DE prior to joining Voldemort.

Random item thrown in....

I started re-reading OotP last night (gearing up!), and came across this passage in the very beginning:

Outside in the flower bed, Harry's stomach seemed to unclench. If anything had happened, it surely would've been the first item on the news....
Every day this summer had been the same: the tension, the expectation, the temporary relief, and then the mounting tension again....and always, growing more insistent all the time, the question of why nothing had happened yet.... (p. 3, US hardcover).

As I was reading this, it came to me how perfectly this also describes Snape's job as spy--the knife-edge of wondering, with each contact with Voldemort and the DEs, if and when they're going to realize the the truth and discover his deception; then getitng away with it another time; then having the process repeat over and over. It's interesting that this tension makes Harry irritable and sarcastic, to the point that he is ill-tempered even with his friends.

Also rather interesting, in light of this, is the familiar scenario when Harry is teased by Dudley for being weak, crying out at night during his nightmares over Cedric's death:

Harry was pointing the wand directly at Dudley's heart. Harry could feel fourteen years' hatred of Dudley pounding through his veins--what he wouldn't give to strike now, to jinx Dudley so thoroughly he'd have to crawl home like an insect, struck dumb, sprotuing feelers--
"Don't ever talk to me about that again," Harry snarled. "D'you understand me?" (p. 15)

A rather fascinating parallel to Snape's "give me a reason" in PoA--except, this time, we get to know what the character is thinking..........And, of course, the general consensus is that Harry is likeable and Dudley is vile, whereas the reverse is usually the case in the perception of the conflict in PoA.

Originally posted by Subtlescience: A rather fascinating parallel to Snape's "give me a reason" in PoA--except, this time, we get to know what the character is thinking..........And, of course, the general consensus is that Harry is likeable and Dudley is vile, whereas the reverse is usually the case in the perception of the conflict in PoA.

What a great find! I've been re-reading all the books, and when I came across that one in Order, I never put the two together. Those scenes are very similar. Both of them are feeling years of hate and resentment. Yet another similarity between Harry and Snape. That darn Harry filter can be so bothersome!
Subtle, I agree with your assessment that Snape would not go further into his shell with the death of DD; in addition to the fact that it seems to only emotions we see from him are negative ones, let's also remember that he is still in the Order and would still have a job to do. If DD dies while doing something noble, for Harry, of course, Snape would, I believe, be pushed even further to try and help Harry learn everything he would need to know to do what must be done. Snape knows Harry is the "chosen one" and with DD gone, he would understand even more the need for Harry to be fully prepared to do the job. His methods would not change, but I do believe that he would step up to the plate in preparing Harry for the job at hand. That is another reason I think DD will die. I don't want him to, but I think it is necessary. Snape looks to DD as mentor figure, I think. So does Harry. Of course, Harry's view has been more "godly" than Snapes would be, but both see him as a great man. Both would be greatly affected by his death, and I do think they would work together to "avenge" his death.

In the event of Dumbledore’s death, I don’t think Snape and Harry would grow closer or set their differences aside (especially if the death occurred in HBP), although I do think that Snape would commit himself to helping Harry. As for Snape retreating further into himself if Dumbledore were to die (which I sincerely hope won’t happen!), I agree that this likely won’t happen. I agree with subtle that Snape is likely to seek revenge for Dumbledore’s death somehow, because I agree that it fits with his character. I have no idea what kind of revenge he might seek, but it’s possible that he might end up putting himself in unnecessary danger to do so.

I believe that Harry’s and Snape’s relationship at the end of OotP is at its lowest point, with the blame Harry (unfairly) places on Snape for the death of Sirius to the point where he vows never to forgive him, and with the anger Snape undoubtedly still feels toward Harry for violating his privacy. I seems like it would take nothing short of a miracle to get those two to ever reach some kind of understanding or reconciliation, but I have faith that they will somehow get over this impasse in their relationship.

About the word “rejoined”, I’d have to say that means Snape rejoined the good side rather than the Order of the Phoenix. I rather don’t think he was ever a part of it until he had rejoined Dumbledore and left Voldemort. I don’t believe Snape ever was a spy for Voldemort on Dumbledore with Dumbledore thinking Snape was on his side, like the situation is now with Voldemort- I could be wrong, but I’ve always thought Snape joined the Death Eaters shortly after leaving Hogwarts.

Lupin may step forward and become Harry's new guardian. But Harry's is moving beyond the point of needing such; the movement of his character is toward increased responsibility and independence as he shoulders his burden.You may be right, but that doesn’t mean Harry doesn’t still need guidance and mentoring. He is still a teenager who is as of now not completely prepared for what lies ahead. I believe both Lupin and Dumbledore will be there to fulfill this role for Harry, whether or not Lupin actually becomes Harry’s formal guardian.

Well, I've been digging for all of the favoritism scenes and--guess what? Not unlike all of the scenes of Snape's arguing/disaagreeing with Dumbledore...they don't exist.

In PS/SS, the comment is made, during the match that Snape referees, that the Gryffindors should "Finish the game before Snape can favor Hufflepuff too much" (p. 222, US paper). Supposedly, he's the ref so that he can guarantee a Gryffindor loss, in order to bolster Slytherin's standings. Of course, no one--not even the staff, apparently--questions the sheer stupidity of this assumption, and no one knows the actual reason Snape is the ref.

In CoS, Harry makes the first full charge against Snape:

Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish comments about the Gryffindors' work while the Slytherins s******ed appreciatively. Draco Malfoy, who was Snape's favorite student, kept flicking puffer-fish eyes at Ron and Harry, who knew that if they retaliated, they would get detention faster than you could say "Unfair" (p. 186, US paper).

The first part makes sense from the perspective of the spy who must not be seen treating the Gryffindors--especially Harry--with any respect. We are told--but never shown--that Draco is Snape's favorite: this is Harry's pronouncement, and not exactly supported by what he observes next. Speaking of 'unfair'--he makes the assumption that he would get a detention: this presupposes that Snape would see him flicking the eyes, as apparently he has not seen Draco doing...as he is "prowling through the fumes." Harry does a nice job of emulating the charge he often makes against Snape: prejudgment.

When Draco returns to class in PoA, after being injured by Buckbeak, Harry again makes some unfounded conlcusions; again; there's a tell, not a show:

Harry and Ron scowled at each other; Snape wouldn't have said "Settle down" if they'd walked in late, he'd have given them detention. That Malfoy had always been able to get away with anything in Snape's classes; Snape was head of Slytherin House, and generally favored his own students above all others (pp. 123-124, US paper).

Nothing to this point has indicated that Snape lets Malfoy get away with anything: in fact, there's been no moment when he's caught Draco doing anything in class in order to let him get away with it. As for favoring his House...I haven't yet been able to find a place where he awards points to his House; I don't find him awarding points anywhere to anyone, but--if he were so h**l bent upon favoring Slytherin, you'd think he'd subtract everywhere else and add to Slytherin. The most he seems to do is not subtract from his own House.

As for the treatment of Malfoy in this scene...There's no reason for him to give Malfoy a detention: Draco is coming from the hospital wing; obviously, as Head of the House, Snape knows what happened and presumably when Draco would be released--at least approximately. Why would he give Draco a detention? Again, Harry prejudges: he assumes he'd get a detention--and probably yes, did he arrive late to class without an excuse (in fact, in PoA, when he arrives 10 minutes late for class without an excuse, he loses 10 points for Gryffindor--p. 170, US paper).

When Draco and Company impersonate dementors at the Quidditch game, it's McGonagall who arrives on the field, shouting at the Slytherins and taking away points. However--before Snape gets the blame for not punishing his own students, it has to be noted that Lupin is standing right there with Harry...and he did absolutely nothing about the Slytherins at all (p. 263).

When Harry goes illegally to Hogsmeade and is seen by Malfoy, Snape simply says that "Mr. Malfoy has just been to see me with a strange story, Potter" (p. 282) and "Mr. Malfoy states that he was standing talking to Weasley, when a large amount of mud hit him in the back of the head. How do you think that could have happened?" (p. 283).

You can almost hear Draco not explaining what he was saying to Ron, and Snape sounds like some sort of attorney presenting the case. It is noteworthy that he refers to Draco as "Mr." and to Harry and Ron solely by their last names. Draco, unfortunately, does have the upper hand in this instance, despite his nasty comments to Ron: he, at least, is in Hogsmeade legally, and he did not perform a sneak attack.....

The most blatant moment of favoritism happens in GoF, when Snape walks in after Draco and Harry try to hex each other and hit Hermione and Goyle instead (Snape does not arrive in time to hear Draco's Mudblood comment, which causes Harry to pull his wand first):

"And what is all this noise about?" said a soft, deadly voice.
Snape had arrived. The Slytherins clamored to give their explanations; Snape pointed a long yellow finger at Malfoy and said, "Explain."
"Potter attacked me, sir--"
"We attacked each other at the same time!" Harry shouted (p. 299).

Snape sends Goyle to the hospital "calmly" and delivers the insult to Hermione about her teeth. This is, finally, a scene in which he catches the parties engaged in a conflict. He selects his own House first to explain--definitely a Head of House bias (interesting that none of his Slytherins shrink from him in fear or try sullen silence), specifically Malfoy. Harry doesn't help his own case by interrupting--with the truth, but Malfoy's got the floor. Snape clearly plays to the image he has to project, in his different treatment of Goyle and Hermione, plus he is able to indulge in insulting one of Harry's friends. Harry and Ron end up with major point deductions and detentions--but that results from what they call Snape after he insults Hermione.

The next time Malfoy and Harry battle, it's at the end of the Quidditch match in OotP, when they end up in a fistfight. Malfoy starts it, with insults that no one not on the field could hear, and is physically gone after by the Weasleys and Harry. Again, it's McGonagall who is there to break it up--and she goes after Harry, not Draco. Her punishment is "a weeks' detention" and she tells Harry, "Do not look at me like that, Potter, you deserve it" (p. 414, US hardcover). That could've been spoken by Snape himself, down to the use of the unadorned last name.

And then there's that final encounter in OotP: "[Harry] had drawn his own wand before Malfoy's fingers had even entered the pocket of his robes" (p. 851). At that point, Snape calls Harry's name and demands to know "What are you doing, Potter?" (p. 852)--Harry is standing there with his wand drawn on Malfoy, who has nothing in his hands.

"I'm trying to decide what curse to use on Malfoy, sir," said Harry fiercely.
Snape stared at him.
"Put that wand away at once," he said curtly. "Ten points from Gryff--" (p. 852).

Snape interrupts himself, as he sees that Gryffindor has no point left from which to deduct. Interesting. Ten points is a pretty mild penalty for what Snape saw, and he only tells Harry to put away his wand. This is the one scene when he stares at Harry--who, by the way, has called him "sir" without prompting and respectfully (a la Malfoy's usual address of Snape), despite his 'fierceness.' And--Snape demanded the information from Harry, not Draco.

Hmmmm. It seems most of the favoritism charges arise form Harry's POV, with some roots in Snape's Head of House leanings and a good dose of his performing for the DEs' kids.

I would like to say (in case of a possible misunderstanding) that I read your post with pleasure and I agree with you on most of the things, but there was a couple of points made that I didn't, or wasn't sure if your understanding is clear to me.

Snape clearly plays to the image he has to project, in his different treatment of Goyle and Hermione, plus he is able to indulge in insulting one of Harry's friends. Harry and Ron end up with major point deductions and detentions--but that results from what they call Snape after he insults Hermione.

I think that this time Snape goes too far--he could have uttered the horrible remark about Hermione's teeth, but could have added something like "but if you think you must go to the Hospital wing, then do so without bothering me" plus a cynic remark (my English is not good enough to write one). After all, Hermione is a Hogwarts student and Severus's primary objective while at the school as a teacher is to make sure that every student is all right. On the other hand, people seem to care less about injuries in the Potterverse. Or some might say that Snape is only teaching the trio that life is hard and with Voldemort happily plotting murders will be hardly easier. But I must say that this time Severus took it too far, although he didn't know what caused the whole situation.

The next time Malfoy and Harry battle, it's at the end of the Quidditch match in OotP, when they end up in a fistfight. Malfoy starts it, with insults that no one not on the field could hear, and is physically gone after by the Weasleys and Harry. Again, it's McGonagall who is there to break it up--and she goes after Harry, not Draco. Her punishment is "a weeks' detention" and she tells Harry, "Do not look at me like that, Potter, you deserve it" (p. 414, US hardcover). That could've been spoken by Snape himself, down to the use of the unadorned last name.

But it would have been different if Snape had said that--he is the Head of Slytherin House and is responsible for the Slytherins, so if he punished Harry it would have a bit different meaning. McGonagall as the Head of Gryffindor House is primarly responsible for the Gryffs, so she goes after Harry--she gives him the punishment, because Harry did something against the good of their House, something he shouldn't have done. He is responsible to McGonagall first and after to all the other teachers. When a Gryff does something wrong it is McGonagall who is indirectly to blame, so I think it is understandable that she was the one to talk to Harry and punish him. Also some of the most important decisions about the students can be taken only with the consent of the Head of the House, i.e. when Snape talks to Harry and Ron in CoS after their Whomping Willow episode about expelling them he says "Most unfortunately, you are not in my House and the decision to expel you does not rest with me.".

If Snape went to the fighting boys and told Harry everything that McGonagall did, then it could have been understood as favourism even without Harry's filter. Severus, as the Head of Slytherin House should talk to his student first.

All this talk about McGonagall reminded me of the mistakes in my pseudonym. Ah, capital P, where art thou?

Snape interrupts himself, as he sees that Gryffindor has no point left from which to deduct. Interesting. Ten points is a pretty mild penalty for what Snape saw, and he only tells Harry to put away his wand. This is the one scene when he stares at Harry--who, by the way, has called him "sir" without prompting and respectfully (a la Malfoy's usual address of Snape), despite his 'fierceness.'

I think that this might be a one single moment when Severus is a bit satisfied with Harry even though he would never admit it in his whole life. Why so? Because at last Harry learned something--to keep the appearances even when full of negative emotions.

And--Snape demanded the information from Harry, not Draco.

This might be due to the fact that it was Harry who had the wand out and not Draco, so it's normal to ask 'what's going on' the person does something that shouldn't be done.

thestralgrin--Do you mean the fanfiction in which Snape thoroughly loses it and breaks down? No clue...I was aimlessly wandering the internet and have no idea where I ended up.....................

If it was a fanfic published on someone's personal geocities site then I think I may have either found it or found something very similar - the title's called "Sticks and Stones" & I'll have a proper read of it to check that it's all ok before posting the link - though it is rated 13+ & describes a suicide attempt. Basically sounds like it's based on the theme of cathartis & vindication (or the hurt/comfort thing on a grander scale).

thestralgrin--If it turns out not to be a site-friendly link, would you be willing to Owl me the link? I'd like to check it out and see if it's the fiction I found while wandering. And, if it's not...well, hey--it'll be something new!!!!

We are told--but never shown--that Draco is Snape's favorite: this is Harry's pronouncement, and not exactly supported by what he observes next.The way this is phrased doesn’t sound like Harry’s opinion to me- it sounds like a stated fact (otherwise it would have said, “Draco, who Harry was sure was Snape’s favorite student,...”). And I do believe we are shown instances where Draco is favored, such as the incident with Hermione’s teeth. But even so, I agree that Draco may not actually be Snape’s favorite student, but I think he has to make it appear as though he favors Draco over the other students because it makes it much easier to be in Lucius’ good graces. Snape has to keep up appearances, and I believe favoring Draco is part of that charade, although I am quite sure Snape favors Draco at least over Harry.

Nothing to this point has indicated that Snape lets Malfoy get away with anythingI don’t see any reason to doubt that Malfoy gets away with more than Harry would be able to- after all, Snape has to let it seem like Malfoy is a “pampered little prince” because daddy Malfoy is watching. So just because we aren’t told of everything Malfoy does that would not be tolerated if Harry did, I don’t see any reason to dismiss this statement.

Since we’ve talked about Snape’s regard for Malfoy, I thought I'd provide Malfoy's regard for Snape: CoS, p 267
"Sir," said Malfoy loudly. "Sir, why don't you apply for the headmaster's job?"

"Now, now, Malfoy," said Snape, though he couldn't repress a thin-lipped smile. "Professor Dumbledore has only been suspended by the governors. I daresay he'll be back with us soon enough."

"Yeah, right," said Malfoy, smirking. "I expect you'd have Father's vote, sir, if you wanted to apply for the job -- I'll tell Father you're the best teacher here, sir--"

Snape smirked as he swept off around the dungeon, fortunately not spotting Seamus Finnigan, who was pretending to vomit into his cauldron.From this quote, it's clear how highly Malfoy thinks of Snape, to the point where he'd love him to be headmaster and he'd tell his beloved father how good Snape is. I'd say Snape's ego was probably stroked quite a bit here, and that's why he was smirking, but I think it's also because he knows that he is keeping up the appearance of liking Draco the best. I doubt Malfoy would have said what he did if Snape didn't treat him especially well (ie if Snape didn't show favoritism toward him), otherwise he'd just be one of the Slytherin students with no extra added attention. I know Malfoy probably also said this to make Harry and the other Gryffindors mad, but I do think there would have been other ways for him to achieve that effect without calling attention to how good Snape is in his opininon (ie he could have badmouthed Dumbledore so that only Harry and Ron could hear or he could have praised his father for getting Dumbledore suspended).

So I would have to conclude that it is highly likely that Snape does exhibit favoritism toward Draco, but as I explained, part of his reason for doing so is to keep up appearances.

I think that this might be a one single moment when Severus is a bit satisfied with Harry even though he would never admit it in his whole life. Why so? Because at last Harry learned something--to keep the appearances even when full of negative emotions.
I like this idea!

All of this goes back to the difficulty of trying to weed through all these agendas which limit our ability to see what is going on. I sometimes despair that we will never see the real Snape before the end of the books. It is hard to get a bead on his real feelings/thoughts/actions.

The bottom line is that the favoritism is simply not shown--not to the extent that it is claimed to exist in the books. Just as Snape does not spend every book disagreeing with Dumbledore. It's not there. And it is Harry who is stating that Draco is Snape's favorite student, just as it's Harry who considers, in the second half of that sentence, what would happen if he retaliated.

Of course Snape is going to seem to prefer Draco--after all, Snape is supposed to be the big bad DE who is politically incorrect enough to make his hatred of Harry obvious. Then, in addition, on the personal level, Harry is rarely anything more than barely courteous to Snape, and often downright rude; Draco, for all his other faults as a possible human being, does address Snape respectfully. He doesn't do that for many teachers, and he, in contrast, absolutely sucks up to Umbridge....

Snape's moment of being at his worst occurs, significantly enough, when he is surrounded by Slytherins. His shot at Hermione is vile, but it certainly seems to be the DE persona performing. (At least he didn't feel the need to change any of the participants into a ferret.) That seems to be the moment wherein he most needs to demonstarte his antipathy for the Gryffindors and his allegiance to Slytherin and the DEs' children.

The bottom line is that the favoritism is simply not shown--not to the extent that it is claimed to exist in the books.
And we weren't (or, atleast I wasn't) trying to claim that it existed as much as some claim. I still feel that, due to the role that Snape plays, it is there, if not as overwhelming as the Harry filter makes it seem. Harry is biased, but Snape is pretending to be a DE and it is in his best interest for Malfoy to think he is teacher's pet, regardless of whether or not that is the way Snape would prefer it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle science
The bottom line is that the favoritism is simply not shown--not to the extent that it is claimed to exist in the books.

And we weren't (or, atleast I wasn't) trying to claim that it existed as much as some claim.

I wasn't trying to claim that too, that's why I wrote at the beginning of my previous post a disclamer and said that as I generally agree with you, I will write only about the points that aren't clear to me or I seem to understand differently. :)

I do think it would be natural for the Heads of houses to show some preferential treatment to their students. Even McGonagall does it on occasion. Snape "seems" to do so more, but again, there's that pesky Harry filter. If memory serves (check out the Molly was rude to see where I'm coming from here ;)) Snape rarely, if ever, Gives points to anyone, including his own house. He does seem to delight in taking them away from Harry and crew, though. But that fits the part that Snape plays.

I do think it would be natural for the Heads of houses to show some preferential treatment to their students. Even McGonagall does it on occasion. Precisely - just think of how Harry got his first broomstick ... wonder how Flitwick & Sprout (not just Snape) would go on that - we get to see so much of the Griffindor/Slytherin rivalries that the other two (especially Hufflepuff) tends to get pushed aside though we do get glimpses. i'd personally like to see more of Sprout & Flitwick's thoughts.

But there's another aspect to Snape's apparent 'favouritism' over the Slytherin students - a lot of them are sons/daughters of death-eaters. Who are in very active service to Voldy. And even before V returned, it's quite likely that Malfoy had been holding the fort for V's cause by keeping the remaining DE's in touch with each other - he had them organised enough to pull off that little incident at the beginning of GoF. Plus he's got the wealth to buy a lot of influence around all the local wizarding institutions.
Snape is an ex-DE. Even Voldemort knows that. And here he is personally in charge of students whose parents are serving that said ex-boss (who would to be quite happy to obliterate him on sight if in a good mood ...)
There are some mysteries re Malfoy & how much he knows (or has been led to know) - but It would make a lot of sense for severus to be very, very careful how he disciplined their offspring. I think Snape *appears* to be lighter-handed with the Slytherins because he may be trying to stay alive.

(ps subtle_science - I will owl you that link)

Harry was pointing the wand directly at Dudley's heart. Harry could feel fourteen years' hatred of Dudley pounding through his veins--what he wouldn't give to strike now, to jinx Dudley so thoroughly he'd have to crawl home like an insect, struck dumb, sprotuing feelers--
"Don't ever talk to me about that again," Harry snarled. "D'you understand me?" (p. 15)

A rather fascinating parallel to Snape's "give me a reason" in PoA--except, this time, we get to know what the character is thinking..........And, of course, the general consensus is that Harry is likeable and Dudley is vile, whereas the reverse is usually the case in the perception of the conflict in PoA.
Instead of 14 years of hatred, you could put 20 years of hatred, and it would fit Snape and Sirius perfectly!

The way Harry talks to Dudley sounds just like Snape - "Don't ever talk to me about that again!" :evil:

You could even say something about Harry and Dudley, the way Lupin says it in the Shrieking Shack: that this is all about a "schoolboy grudge," and therefore isn't important enough to get so upset about. But we know the extent that Harry has been bullied, so we feel as if Dudley deserves what he might get. When reading PoA, we tend to think that Snape is overreacting to Sirius because we don't realize that Snape has been bullied by the Marauders. At that point in the series, we only know about the Werewolf Incident, as if that isn't bad enough. Then in OotP, the whole Harry/Dudley dynamic at the beginning of the book foreshadows SWM later on.
Now something I've wanted to bring up, but at the same time don't want to believe because it kind of messes up the 'redemption' pattern for Snape.
DD's testimony at Karkaroff's trial about Snape as a DE:
"I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." pg 590-591 GoF, pprbk
Does this mean Snape was with the Order before going to VM? Perhaps going to VM purposively to spy for DD totally unknown by others? As I've said I don't like the idea of this because it implies Snape was the 'noble spy' from the beginning, which ruins the 'redemption' angle.
I don't believe Snape was a spy until he turned away from Voldemort. We don't really know what drove him away from Dumbledore in the first place, unless it was some childish reason, such as James being chosen as Head Boy, or because he wanted a sense of belonging and tried to find it in the DEs.
And Dumbledore's use of "rejoined"--I think he means that Snape started out as a good person; not that he was an Order member to begin with, but that he simply was not a DE prior to joining Voldemort.
I agree with you - that is exactly how I think about this. :tu:
Nothing to this point has indicated that Snape lets Malfoy get away with anything: in fact, there's been no moment when he's caught Draco doing anything in class in order to let him get away with it. As for favoring his House...I haven't yet been able to find a place where he awards points to his House; I don't find him awarding points anywhere to anyone, but--if he were so h**l bent upon favoring Slytherin, you'd think he'd subtract everywhere else and add to Slytherin. The most he seems to do is not subtract from his own House.
Yes, that's true. I can't think of any examples of Slytherin getting points from Snape, but if Snape did give them points he could hardly be faulted, since Harry and Hermione often get points from many of the other teachers all the time.
The next time Malfoy and Harry battle, it's at the end of the Quidditch match in OotP, when they end up in a fistfight. Malfoy starts it, with insults that no one not on the field could hear, and is physically gone after by the Weasleys and Harry. Again, it's McGonagall who is there to break it up--and she goes after Harry, not Draco. Her punishment is "a weeks' detention" and she tells Harry, "Do not look at me like that, Potter, you deserve it" (p. 414, US hardcover). That could've been spoken by Snape himself, down to the use of the unadorned last name.
McGonagall is a really good "mirror" of Snape! I think one reason Prof. McGonagall is so hard on Harry there is that she has told him numerous times to keep his nose clean, and he seems to be ignoring her advice about Umbridge. Ahem - just as Harry ignores Snape's class and his advice.

How many things seem to depend on the ultimate reconciliation between Harry and Severus , eh ?
As we see , Harry could understand Snape's bias towards his own house , and his ill-treatment of the gryffindors if he just sees Snape-the spy instead of Snape-the teacher , at those moments . Something he most certainly will not do until he has solid proof , either from Dumbledore or Snape himself .

Also , in OOTP itself , we see two instances where things could have imoproved , but they only worsened . Post SWM , had Snape bothered to see how Harry had actually taken it , he would have realised that Harry was not in fact , James Junior . Post DoM battle , had Harry not let his grief blind him to everything else , he would have seen that Snape had acted in his best interests .

I , for one , do not see these things happening again and again . It's OK in OOTP -the book of missed opportunities , but to carry it on would be cumbersome .

About Dumbledore's death , I see it as a probable event , in HBP itself . As many posters have pointed out , Harry must have matured to a decent extent post-OOTP , and is at a stage where he will not require adults to provide him emotional support to a great extent , but help in fulfilling his destiny as the One . So , Lupin's role , I feel , will not be like Sirius' in GoF and OOTP . The closeness will be there , of course , but the interactions will be more mature and productive . Dumbledore , has always been the backbone of every book so far , the books would have been impossible without him . That is why I feel that it's time for him to "go on " . Harry has to stop feeling that Dumbledore would always be there to save the day or that he can rely on someone apart from himself to get the job done . I think the both of them will be the closest in HBP , before their (sniff) separation .

I agree with Subtle that Snape will not be negatively affected by DD's death . It will help him grow . it will remove the one character who trusts him completely even with all his shortcomings . Should Snape lose such a figure , it will be a terrible blow to him , but it will most probably make him feel the need to prove his worth to dumbledore . I know it sounds corny , but I see Snape doing something heroic in future that will completely validate Dumbledore's trust in him and make Harry see the good in him as well .


Gosh !! Check out my post number !!!

A couple of things I cam accross while looking at some other threads:

There was something mentioned in OoP about confusing the runes of defense and partnesrship (thread here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=54509&page=2&pp=20)) - so though it may be that Harry's dealing with V might require him to be emotionally independant in some ways, it may also mean hewill be required to form new partnerships with those whom he would rather "defend" himself against. A chocolate frog for those who can guess one very obvious contender for that role ;)

Another thing I remembered (which also seemed connected to this) was the Neville's Boggart scene - where Grandma Snape was overcome by turned it into a cockroach (which means imagining Snape as a cockroach is amusing to Neville) - but after his worst memory became known to Harry, a jar of dead cockroaches exploded as Harry left the office ... maybe a hint at the importance of "exploding" the idea the boys might have that the man is just some kind of overgrown bug? - wonder if there is a connection with that.

uh, Lupin made the boggard of the moon turn into a cockroch. it turned back into grandma snape when it was Nevilles turn again.

Another thing I remembered (which also seemed connected to this) was the Neville's Boggart scene - where Grandma Snape was overcome by turned it into a cockroach (which means imagining Snape as a cockroach is amusing to Neville) - but after his worst memory became known to Harry, a jar of dead cockroaches exploded as Harry left the office ... maybe a hint at the importance of "exploding" the idea the boys might have that the man is just some kind of overgrown bug? - wonder if there is a connection with that.
uh, Lupin made the boggard of the moon turn into a cockroch. it turned back into grandma snape when it was Nevilles turn again.

Syiren is right. I just checked the book, and towards the end of the Boggart scene in PoA, Lupin's boggart appears (the moon orb) and when he says, "Ridikkulus," a cockroach appears, but then he lets Neville finish it off. The cockroach turns into Snape when Neville faces it again, not the other way around, and then explodes - "Exploding Snape," which sounds alot like "Exploding Snap," the card game, lol.
I , for one , do not see these things happening again and again . It's OK in OOTP -the book of missed opportunities , but to carry it on would be cumbersome .
I agree, Albie. There needs to be some resolution between Snape and Harry. They've got to learn to understand eachother better or they might as well give up.There was something mentioned in OoP about confusing the runes of defense and partnesrship (thread here) - so though it may be that Harry's dealing with V might require him to be emotionally independant in some ways, it may also mean hewill be required to form new partnerships with those whom he would rather "defend" himself against. A chocolate frog for those who can guess one very obvious contender for that role
There was something mentioned in OoP about confusing the runes of defense and partnesrship (thread here) - so though it may be that Harry's dealing with V might require him to be emotionally independant in some ways, it may also mean hewill be required to form new partnerships with those whom he would rather "defend" himself against. A chocolate frog for those who can guess one very obvious contender for that role

Hermione mistakes the runes "Eihwaz" and "Ehwaz" in this passage (Thanks to Queen Lindzi from the other thread for the quote:

"How were the runes?" said Ron, yawning and stretching.
"I mistranslated 'ehwaz,'" said Hermione furiously. "It means 'partnership' not 'defense,' I mixed it up with 'eihwaz.'"
"Ah well," said Ron lazily, "that's only one mistake, isn't it, you'll still get --"
"Oh shut up," said Hermione angrily, "it could be the one mistake that makes the difference between a pass and a fail."
--Order of the Phoenix, page 715, US version

I looked up something about Runes, and it's interesting because "magicians" who used Runes were known as "Rune Masters." We have yet to find out who teachers Runes at Hogwarts. Someone also was proficient enough to write an article on Runes for the Quibbler, which Luna is reading upside down in OotP. Luna and Hermione together make an interesting set of clues. Maybe we should look at those runes upside down sometime. But anyway, here is the stuff I found about Runes in general:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/vikings/runes.html
This is from PBS online and you can write your own name in Runes, which is fun.

Those who used them for magic took the supernatural powers of the runes seriously. As one Viking poet put it, "Let no man carve runes to cast a spell, save first he learns to read them well." While many in the upper classes could read and write runes, the Vikings called in a specialist when dealing with the talismanic properties of their alphabet. These experts, called Rune Masters, were specially trained to bring runes into play for divination and sorcery.

Judging from the many poems and legends chronicling their feats, the Rune Masters held positions of great importance in the Viking world. In one tale, a woman becomes deathly ill due to the bungling of an amateur Rune Master. The sorcerer carves a runic formula onto a whalebone, which the woman then hangs over her bed. The inscription is meant to protect her, but because it bears the wrong runes, it makes her sick. Another Rune Master corrects the runes, and the woman immediately recovers. In another story, a Rune Master inscribes protective runic symbols on his drinking horn. When a rival attempts to poison his drink, the drinking horn breaks in two. Thanks to his knowledge of the runes, the Rune Master saves his own life.

Rune Masters were also skilled in the art of rune casting, a method of divination. In one common rune-casting technique, the diviner carved runes on pieces of bark, then flung the pieces on the ground, picked three at random, and used the symbols inscribed on them to answer his client's question. Alternatively, the Rune Master painted runes on flat pebbles. He then placed the pebbles in a leather bag, shook the bag, and cast the pebbles onto the ground. Runes that landed face up served for the divination.

Viking warriors harnessed the arcane powers of the runes even in war. Runic inscriptions on swords entreated the gods either to protect the sword's owner or bring pain and misery to his enemy. The berserkers, whose reckless behavior on the battlefield gave rise to the word 'beserk,' may owe their reputation in part to the runes. These warriors customarily carved the runic symbol for Tyr, the god of war, onto their shields. They would then charge fearlessly into battle, in the belief that nothing could overcome the power of the runes.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/RunesEihwazEhwaz.jpg

About the "Horse" rune, which also means partnership:

http://www.midnightmoonchild.com/moonchildnineteenthrunepage.html

The Saxon conquerors of Britain were Hengist and Horsa (stallion and horse) and this rune speaks to the harmonious relationship between two forces in the same way that successful horsemanship requires a harmonious relationship with his mount. Again, one could infer a reference to teamwork if that was helpful.

The Ehwaz was connected closely to the concept of a man's fetch, the "horse" that carries one on the journey between worlds. It is the rune of Sleipnir, the magical eight-legged horse of the gods. With its close connection to the horse it is also a symbol of partnerships.

Ehwaz facilitates "soul travel" or the shaman's journey. As such it can be used to obtained hidden knowledge or knowledge from a distance.

It can represent a journey in consciousness, a swifter flight then that of Raidho, (another rune that makes reference to the eight-legged magical horse Sleipnir), and one that is protected or guided.

Ehwas can also represent greater progress made through advantageous partnerships, just as a man is able to make more progress with the aid of a horse than on foot. These need not necessarily be partnerships with living things. The horse as a method of conveyance, has been mostly replaced by automobiles. These are not living things, but they are, nonetheless, useful partnerships that aid speedy progress.

Magically Ehwaz can be useful in summoning methods for aiding advancement and progress. This advancement may be through opportunities to make useful connections with others, or to "connect" to useful knowledge or equipment that will speed your progress.

This rune may also be worked to bring or summon forth a partnership where one is needed, perhaps in business, commerce, or battle. This work may include the formation of alliances.

In dvination it will often appear when a partnership is being formed, or when help or aid in any endeavor can be expected and this rune can represent any of the following forces.

EHWAZ UPRIGHT:Horse, transportation, vehicle, advancement, movement, harmony, teamwork, trust, loyalty, an ideal marriage or partnership, confirmation beyond any doubt conveyed in the meanings of the runes around it.

EHWAZ MERKSTAVE:Slow or stalled progress, restlessness, needing assistance, unachievable ideals or goals, reckless haste, disharmony, mistrust, betrayal, misalliances.

Eihwaz definitely means "Yew" and the search for immortality, the mystery of life and death, survival, or as Hermione puts it, defense.
http://www.midnightmoonchild.com/moonchildthirteenthrunepage.html

The yew is Voldemort's wand, no doubt about that. If Eihwaz is indeed the symbol that Voldemort put on Harry's head, then that raises all kinds of possiblities. By marking him, he might even be protecting him? :huh:

Definitely getting those two things mixed up could be a problem, but just how do we apply this to Snape and Harry? Hopefully their "partnership" could work out with more understanding. So far, it seems to be a case of "Upside down Ehwaz" with mistrust more than advancement.

silver ink pot--What you said about the "schoolboy grudge" made me think of something else--a minor point, but...increasingly, as the books have progressed, Harry has gotten more and more sarcastic. More Snapelike, in fact. Look at his conversation with Dudley before the dementor attack--or his comments to Petunia and Vernon over his wanting to watch the news (I love when he explains to them that he wants to watch it every night 'because it changes, you see'). I just find it interesting that, as the years go on, Harry resorts to a cutting verbal defense--since he can't retaliate physically. Hmmmmm.

Fascinating information about runes. Yew is also a symbol of immortality--just chucking that random, almost related thought in. Also--a friend of mine mentioned once that Avada Kedavra--Abracadabra--was used in healing; the words hung around the patient's neck, with letters taken away on each line until there was nothing left (okay--even when she said it, as well as having just typed that--I can't help but think of the Cheshire Cat!!). I never looked it up, I confess, to find out more about it......boy, that's an obvious ploy, isn't it???

albie--I agree about moving on in the plot. It was Chievrefueil who described OotP, I believe, as a novel about failures. HBP has to move on: it can't continue that theme (unless the whole series is really about the ultimate failure...doubt it). And, if Harry is supposed to be the hero who resolves the problem, he must be independent. It doesn't mean he doesn't need allies and help; it just means that he needs to stand on his own. As you say--not top feel that Dumbledore will come to the rescue and solve everything. It's time for him not to need that from anyone--Sirius, and Lupin, too. Now is the time, for lack of a better word, for Harry to have co-workers. Dumbledore's revelation of the prophecy established this idea: it's all Harry. Either he or Voldemort dies, and each is the only one who can do anything about the other. Nobody else counts. Except as a right-hand man/woman to help Harry succeed.

Snape would be a great ally, because that alliance would show Harry that all people have something to offer. It would take Harry more of an effort to accept Snape's help than Lupin's--Lupin is easy--he's likeable. Snape would challenge Harry to grow up some more: people have worth, even if you don't like them particularly.

Hi!!!
I just thought I'd state some of my own observations about what I think. I didn't read all 30 something pages so far just kinda skimmed so I hope I'm not just repeating things you guys have already said.
Well firstly about the whole Snape not actually favoring the Slytherins I think he does I don't think there's one example in the whole books of him punishing his own Slytherins. I think a lot of the times he is selectivly blind to what his students are doing ie when Malfoy was flicking Pufferfish eyes at Ron and Harry. (Sometimes I'm deaf when my parents ask me to do something I don't want to do but am instantly cured when it's about something else ;-) But a lot of it is, I think, that he is percieved as being more unfair then he is. For a couple of reasons:
Unlike McGonagal he doesn't try to hide the fact that he likes his own house best. (McGonagal does but mostly tries to act like she doesn't have a favorite)
Both snape and McGonagal are very strict teachers(neither of them tolerates slackers)But where as McGonagal is just strict and stern Snape is also harsh, mean, and criticizes peoples work in front of the rest of the class.
I think his expectations are also higher then McGonagals. McGonagol alows room for mistakes and knows it might take more then one try to get something right, Snape expects perfection. Compare the fist transfiguration lesson with the first potions lesson.
And the last one (that I can think of anyway) Snape doesn't praise students even when they do get it right, (except malfoy) he just dosn't criticize. Snape teaches through punishment for mistakes. With mc she punishes, but it's evened out b/c she also rewards good work.

I believe thaat eventually snape and harry will at least grow to respect one another, but I'm not sure DD's death would do that. I could see it going either way.
For them reconciling:
1 DD's death might make them wake up and see that this fighting is usless.
2 Since DD pushed so hard to get them to stop fighting they might stop as a way to honor DD's memory.
3 If DD did die they would both be hurting over the same thing. People who hurt in the same way identify with one another and are often naturaly drawn to one another.
4 DD's death would leave a HUGE hole in Harry's life that snape could at least partly fill if he were willing to step up to the plate.
5 DD's death would change snape a lot perhaps let Harry see he's not as mean as harry thinks.
6 DD's death might lead them to be more open and honest with one another.

Aginst them reconcilling:
1 DD's death could cause them to clam up even more.
2 DD's the main one to try to get them to get along, he helps them both to see things from the others perspective. If he were to die then they would lose even that.
3 I think Snape does try to act as though he doesn't need anyone elses help, just think back to SWM, DD is one of the few people I think he considers a friend he can trust, If DD dies snape might try to hide his real feelings behind a mask, he dosn't strike me as the greiving in public type at least. this could lead to many problems. Harry might be convinced Snape really is as mean as he already thinks. Snape might think Harry weak if he does, and he probably would (he's not the best at hiding his feeligs).
4 Harry might blame snape for DD's death just like he blamed him for sirus's
There are probably a lot more reasons but I have to get off now. Sorry for any gramatical mistakes.

Hi, Star 28! :welcome:

Lots of good ideas, and I think the reasons for them to respect eachother will have to outweigh those against, since they are on the same side, and both seem close to Dumbledore.

silver ink pot--What you said about the "schoolboy grudge" made me think of something else--a minor point, but...increasingly, as the books have progressed, Harry has gotten more and more sarcastic. More Snapelike, in fact. Look at his conversation with Dudley before the dementor attack--or his comments to Petunia and Vernon over his wanting to watch the news (I love when he explains to them that he wants to watch it every night 'because it changes, you see'). I just find it interesting that, as the years go on, Harry resorts to a cutting verbal defense--since he can't retaliate physically. Hmmmmm.
Harry definitely has the Slytherin "wit" like Phineas Nigellus. Where did he get that from? James doesn't seem very "witty" in OotP, and Lily doesn't seem very sarcastic, does she? Lily just seems straightforward. Interesting.

Fascinating information about runes. Yew is also a symbol of immortality--just chucking that random, almost related thought in. Also--a friend of mine mentioned once that Avada Kedavra--Abracadabra--was used in healing; the words hung around the patient's neck, with letters taken away on each line until there was nothing left (okay--even when she said it, as well as having just typed that--I can't help but think of the Cheshire Cat!!). I never looked it up, I confess, to find out more about it......boy, that's an obvious ploy, isn't it???

:evil: Oh, just come right out and ask me to search for it, LOL! :p

:wow: It's pretty darn amazing! Read this!

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-abr1.htm
[Q] “Can you shed some magical clarity on the word abracadabra please?”

[A] Let me wave my wand ... It’s ancient, first mentioned in a poem by Quintus Serenus Sammonicus in the second century AD. It is believed to have come into English via French from a Greek word abrasadabra (the change from s to c seems to have been through a confused transliteration of the Greek). It originated as a secret and mystical word with a Gnostic sect in Alexandria called the Basilidians (named after their founder Basilides of Egypt). It was probably based on Abrasax, the name of their supreme deity (Abraxas in Latin sources), but is sometimes said to have been constructed from the initial letters of three Hebrew Words: Ab, the father, Ben, the son, and Acadsch, the holy spirit. It was used as a charm, written in the shape of a triangle on a piece of parchment worn round the neck, and was believed to have the power to cure toothaches, malaria and other scourges. And Abraxas itself was said to have magical powers of its own, as a word that represented the number of days in the year, 365. This was derived by adding up the numerical values of its seven Greek letters by a process called gematria. For this reason, it was often engraved on amulets and precious stones.

You know - that really does have something to do with the runes! In GoF we see the "Abraxan" horses, and the rune of partnership also means "horse."

Very weird! I suppose that is similar to Avada Kedavra, since you might be talking about "destroying" a fever or evil spirit.

"Avada kedavra" is an Aramaic phrase that means "may the thing be destroyed."
http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/4.html

Naaahhh--I just like to drop non-too-subtle hints. Same result! : ) (but thanks.....)

That's pretty much what my friend told me (she's a World Lit teacher--and scary smart). I find it interesting that JKR is using the healing charm as a killing curse: it seems to tie in with the mirror theme in the books. In addition, the triangle relates to all of the Trios in the novels.

I am a bit of a pattern nerd, and so, immediately upon reading the books, seized upon the pattern of opposites (mirrors/twos) and triads.

JKR could make me, therefore, very happy if Snape turned out not only to be an ex-Death Eater, but also that 'gifted healer' claimed on the wizard cards. Death/life; destroyer/healer; kill/cure.

(shameless self promotion...without even the decency to *blush*...Done with PotionStudent's challenge on Snape's POV...egads--turned into a three-parter....."Hokey Smokes," as Rocket J. Squirrel would say)

:tu: I can't wait to read the three-parter, Subtle!

It's really the achievement of JKR, isn't it, the patterns that are all interwoven. And just when you think the book can be explained by one pattern, someone points out a new one. Incredible, really.

Silver, perhaps you would like to visit my rune thread: Runes (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=518189).

("Runes, anyone? from Divinations studies has been deleted, but it's still here (http://www.cosforums.com/cosarchive/showthread.php?t=16412&highlight=Runes) in the archives.)

These are the rune names:

ᚠ fehu "wealth, cattle", ᚢ ûruz "aurochs" (or ûram "water / slag"?), ᚦ thurisaz "giant", ᚨ ansuz "one of the Aesir" (or ahsam "ear (of corn)"?), ᚱ raidô "ride, journey", ᚲ kaunan "ulcer, illness", ᚷ gebô "gift", ᚹ wunjô "joy",

ᚺ haglaz "hail", ᚾ naudiz "need", ᛁ îsaz "ice", ᛃ jera "year", ᛇ îgwaz / eihwaz "yew", ᛈ perþô? "pear"?, ᛉ algiz "elk"?, ᛊ sôwilô "Sun",

ᛏ tîwaz (a god), ᛒ berkanan "birch", ᛖ ehwaz "horse", ᛗ mannaz "man", ᛚ laukaz "lake", ᛜ ingwaz (a god), ᛞ dagaz "day", ᛟ ôþalan "estate, inheritance"

(from Wikipedia.org)

Aha! I'm glad I looked this up, because I had never heard of Eihwaz, only ehwaz. But I see now that the reason is that I had only heard the other name for it, igwaz.

Silver, perhaps you would like to visit my rune thread: Runes (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=518189).
Thanks, Norbertha, I'll try to get over there soon!

Aha! I'm glad I looked this up, because I had never heard of Eihwaz, only ehwaz. But I see now that the reason is that I had only heard the other name for it, igwaz.
Many of the runes have alternate spellings, I've discovered. I keep thinking that Hermione is making some sort of philosophical statement, in a way.

If Eihwaz means "Defense" and Ehwaz means "Partnership," in some ways those things are opposites. You have to "let down defenses" in order to connect with people and to work together. You can't trust anyone when you are defensive. Voldemort has the "Yew" wand, symbol of Eihwaz, and doesn't trust or care about anyone but himself. Meanwhile, Dumbledore's "Order of the Phoenix" is all about trusting people to do the right thing, even if they fail sometimes.

I just spent some time reading alot of the runes, and this one caught my eye because I had just changed my signature picture to Snape with his lighted wand. :

http://www.midnightmoonchild.com/moonchildsixthrunepage.html

The Sixth Rune: Kennaz
Names - KENAZ - torch, KEN - torch, KUSMA - swelling, KAUN - sore or small wound, KAUNAZ - boil

I hold the light
I raise the torch
I emerge from darkness

This rune is depicted as the flame of transformation and regeneration and is therefore represented by pictogram as a symbol of the lighted torch. In fact, it isn't too hard to see how the vertical stave supports the two angled staves to evoke similarities to an image of rays of light cast wide.

If you are wondering where these references to inflamed wounds came about, the Gothic and Old Norse references to internal fire and inflammation are "secondary" according to Thorsson and other Runic experts, as the source of meanings for those terms were drawn from rune poems rather than individual meanings attributed to the futhark itself.

Kenaz is the flame of the forge, the volcano, and deep earth energies. It is the controlled flame of the artist, hearthkeeper, and craftsman.

Kenaz is the light of the torch illuminating the pathway ahead, and is expressed through the flame of a single candle as well as the powerful beam of the lighthouse beacon.

Kenaz "breaks out" in unexpected ways, and holds the power to create or destroy. It is a primal force of creation in myths as it is the combined power of fire and ice that produce the life force.

. . . Remember the tale of the Sorcerer's Apprentice? This was an excellent depiction of the runaway power of "Kenaz" or knowledge in the hands of the under-skilled. The main caution of this tale was that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", so too with Kenaz.

Kenaz invokes the harnessed power of light which emerges from darkness, but, it is in the harnessing of this primal power that the real magic of Kenaz is revealed. Too little light results in illusion, too much light results in blindness.

I actually think that rune could apply to Harry or Snape, since they are both seen "lighting the way," and Harry is often tempted to do things he knows he shouldn't, which has to be part of Snape's past as a DE.

Harry was pointing the wand directly at Dudley's heart. Harry could feel fourteen years' hatred of Dudley pounding through his veins--what he wouldn't give to strike now, to jinx Dudley so thoroughly he'd have to crawl home like an insect, struck dumb, sprotuing feelers--
"Don't ever talk to me about that again," Harry snarled. "D'you understand me?" (p. 15)

A rather fascinating parallel to Snape's "give me a reason" in PoA--except, this time, we get to know what the character is thinking..........And, of course, the general consensus is that Harry is likeable and Dudley is vile, whereas the reverse is usually the case in the perception of the conflict in PoA.Instead of 14 years of hatred, you could put 20 years of hatred, and it would fit Snape and Sirius perfectly!

The way Harry talks to Dudley sounds just like Snape - "Don't ever talk to me about that again!"

You could even say something about Harry and Dudley, the way Lupin says it in the Shrieking Shack: that this is all about a "schoolboy grudge," and therefore isn't important enough to get so upset about. But we know the extent that Harry has been bullied, so we feel as if Dudley deserves what he might get. When reading PoA, we tend to think that Snape is overreacting to Sirius because we don't realize that Snape has been bullied by the Marauders. At that point in the series, we only know about the Werewolf Incident, as if that isn't bad enough. Then in OotP, the whole Harry/Dudley dynamic at the beginning of the book foreshadows SWM later on.[/quote]This is true both Harry and Snape do class in personality during OotP. They both sneak around the school, both stick there noses into business that does no involve you.

And Dumbledore's use of "rejoined"--I think he means that Snape started out as a good person; not that he was an Order member to begin with, but that he simply was not a DE prior to joining Voldemort.That could very easily mean that Snape has moved away from Dumbledore’s loyalty a little in OotP and needs to think about rejoining the order or moving back to the death eaters. At the moment I don’t think Snape has joined any side again and still needs to choose between the good and the bad. The image of Snape as a young boy cowering before an angry man could be not all it seems, it could simply be a part of Snape’s insecurity as seen through his subconscious mind. Dumbledore might be trying to make the choice of death eater or order member easier for Snape by giving him encouragement and trying to re-build his relationship with Sirius. Snape at the moment behind the front he puts on seems like a very insecure little boy who is afraid of the future and clouded in by the past. Snape will never be a member of the order if the order and Snape can not put there differences aside and forget about there childhood past. Snape will always run back to the death eaters if the order does not forgive him for his bad choice making and allow him to join without the presence of prejudice. If Eihwaz means "Defense" and Ehwaz means "Partnership," in some ways those things are opposites. You have to "let down defenses" in order to connect with people and to work together.Like Snape did in PS and on many of the other occasions after defending Harry and saving his life. If you think about it that way then Snape is symbolic of the Eihwaz. Harry on the other hand needs to start to trust Snape and forge a partnership with him, realize that he can actually be a powerful ally as he knows Voldemort and the death eaters well. So in a way the Ehwaz could be the forging of a partnership between Harry and Snape, so that Harry has another form of defense against Voldemort.

I never thought about the rune symbols in this sort of way and I like your comments too silver ink pot.

Head is hurting from lots of new information on runes.....

Interesting that Kenaz is associated with craftsmen--potions, anyone? Which Snape calls both an art and a science.


And Harry is classic in his combination of having great power, but not necessarily great control at this point. He obviously has enormous talent, combined with a sharp mind, but he is not yet disciplined. Just one example of a contrast is his ability to produce a Patronus, yet his inability to pay attention in class...Potions and History of Magic being two of the worst instances. The combination is what seems almost enough to drive Snape to drink in OotP: Harry has all the ability in the world to learn Occlumency, but won't focus and do it; he won't harness what he has and use it.


Tane--While I agree that Snape demonstrates a certain insecurity, I do disagree that he hasn't chosen a side or that he would return to the DEs. He already has been forgiven by the one person whose opinion matters--Dumbledore--and Snape is already emphatically working for and on the side of the Order. As I've said before, the characters who trust Snape are far more reliable than those who express doubts about him: Ron, Sirius, FakeMoody, and Bill are hardly bastions of common sense and reason, in contrast to Dumbledore, Lupin, Hermione, McGonagall, and Molly.

Your comment about Snape's sneaking around the school and getting into what isn't his business is an idea I've read in a few places around the forums...It's something that is quite odd to me. Snape isn't sneaking, nor is what he finds not his business: he's a faculty member patrolling the school. It is quite clearly his job. It's Harry who is sneaking and into what is not his business; it's Harry who is in the wrong. Another instance of the Harry Filter at work: because we see Harry's point of view, and Harry feels justified, suddenly the teacher is the one who is out of order...Who's in the right and who's in the wrong become inverted.

Y'know...along the lines of the idea that Snape always disagrees with Dumbledore...the idea that Snape shows favoritism...I can't think of examples. We're told he favors the Slytherins, but when does he show blatant, undeniable favoritism?

How about in GoF when Harry and Malfoy try and curse each other, but the spells deflect onto Crabb (or Goyle, whichever) and Hermione. I think Crabb got boils or something and Snape told him to go to the hospital wing. Hermione got those huge teeth and Snape just said that he didn't see a difference.

I guess you could say that was just about him hating Harry, but essentially it was Slytherin favouritism.

Or in... <racks brain> sorry, not sure which book, I think CoS, when Malfoy is first made Seeker. Gryffendor had booked the pitch and Snape just wrote a note to say that Slytherin needed it to train their new Seeker.

Or basically every potions lesson, when he ignores any bad behaviour by Slytherins, like letting Malfoy milk his "injury" in PoA and wander in late to class and making Harry and Ron do all his work.

There's so many examples. You can find reasons for it like he has to act as if he's on Malfoy's side vs Harry's so Lucius would think Snape was still a loyal DE or something, but he certainly shows favouritism.

I do disagree that he hasn't chosen a side or that he would return to the DEs. He already has been forgiven by the one person whose opinion matters--Dumbledore--and Snape is already emphatically working for and on the side of the Order. As I've said before, the characters who trust Snape are far more reliable than those who express doubts about him: Ron, Sirius, FakeMoody, and Bill are hardly bastions of common sense and reason, in contrast to Dumbledore, Lupin, Hermione, McGonagall, and Molly.
I agree with you subtle :tu: . Of all the characters you list, it's Dumbledore's trust of Snape that is key. McGonagall, Molly and Lupin's trust of him most probably stems from Dumbledore's. For me, one of the key moments that reaffirmed by belief that Snape is a 'good guy' was his communication to the Order following the scene when Harry reveals that the DEs have 'got' Padfoot. It would have been easy enough for Snape to not do this and to say later, if called on it, that he didn't understand what Harry was getting at. Instead he informed the Order 'as soon as possible' and it was Snape who worked out where Harry had gone (as per Dumbledore, p 734 OotP, UK edn). Up to that point, most of Snape's actions can be seen as possibly being pro-Voldemort, possibly being pro-Order, but at that point there can be no doubting, IMO, which side Snape is on.

Your comment about Snape's sneaking around the school and getting into what isn't his business is an idea I've read in a few places around the forums...It's something that is quite odd to me. Snape isn't sneaking, nor is what he finds not his business: he's a faculty member patrolling the school. It is quite clearly his job. It's Harry who is sneaking and into what is not his business; it's Harry who is in the wrong. Another instance of the Harry Filter at work: because we see Harry's point of view, and Harry feels justified, suddenly the teacher is the one who is out of order...Who's in the right and who's in the wrong become inverted.
You're so right! Why shouldn't Snape be wandering around the school at night, he's a teacher and there are (apparently) no restrictions on his actions? Even in PS when he goes to the third floor when the troll is on the loose Harry questions him, despite the fact that there is no reason why Snape shouldn't have done this, even if it was suspicious. Harry on the other hand does a lot of night-time wandering, something that is clearly outside of school rules, hence detention from McGonagall in PS.

Harry almost always sees Snape as being in the wrong (even when he is clearly not). The first time we see him question this is following SWM and finally, in the scene I referred to earlier, we see the first time that he actually places his trust in Snape, albeit admittedly in desperate circumstances.

Your comment about Snape's sneaking around the school and getting into what isn't his business is an idea I've read in a few places around the forums...It's something that is quite odd to me. Snape isn't sneaking, nor is what he finds not his business: he's a faculty member patrolling the school. It is quite clearly his job. It's Harry who is sneaking and into what is not his business; it's Harry who is in the wrong. Another instance of the Harry Filter at work: because we see Harry's point of view, and Harry feels justified, suddenly the teacher is the one who is out of order...Who's in the right and who's in the wrong become inverted.Now you put it like that it does make sense that he goes around the school keeping a close eye on what other do but he did snoop around the school like Harry when he was young and had no right to sneak about at the dead of night like the maurders had no right either. The young Snape sneaks around the school just like Harry does now (edit: that is the point I was trying to put across, not the fact that he is a teacher snooping around but that he also snooped around the school as a child). In a way that probably gives Snape more authority on patrolling the school and ensuring the likes of Harry and his friends don't get themselves into as much trouble as he did when he was younger (I am thinking about the Lupin incident and no doubt many other things caught young Snape's inquisitive mind back then). You are right though, it is Snape’s job to patrol the school at night and not Harry’s place to take over Snape’s work or put himself in danger like that.

I wonder whether Snape has just as many foes in the death eaters camp as he seems to have with in the order?

I wonder whether Snape has just as many foes in the death eaters camp as he seems to have with in the order?
I'm not sure that Snape has a lot of foes as such within the Order. Whether members of the Order like him or not he is clearly a fairly trusted member. Sirius is the only member of the Order who openly challenges his loyalties and that can be seen in the context of their schoolboy hatred of each other, Snape's potential abuse of Harry in occlumency lessons, and Sirius's frustration at not being able to help the Order as much as he wants to.

In terms of the other DEs, how many of them actually know that he was/is a DE? In GoF Karkaroff says that Voldemort preferred that the DEs never knew all the names of the DEs and preferred secrecy and I see no reason not to believe this. Again, in GoF when the DEs are reunited with their master, Lord Voldemort himself does not mention them all by name.

I'm not sure that Snape has a lot of foes as such within the Order. Whether members of the Order like him or not he is clearly a fairly trusted member. Sirius is the only member of the Order who openly challenges his loyalties and that can be seen in the context of their schoolboy hatred of each other, Snape's potential abuse of Harry in Occlumency lessons, and Sirius's frustration at not being able to help the Order as much as he wants to.

In terms of the other DEs, how many of them actually know that he was/is a DE? In GoF Karkaroff says that Voldemort preferred that the DEs never knew all the names of the DEs and preferred secrecy and I see no reason not to believe this. Again, in GoF when the DEs are reunited with their master, Lord Voldemort himself does not mention them all by name.May be all the death eaters do not know that Snape is a death eater but the Malfoy family must know or Snape would have never hidden the fact that he was giving Occulemency lesson to Harry from Draco. Actually the fact that Snape hid this information from the Malfoys suggests that your right, his loyalty does lie emphatically with Dumbledore. In a way Snape had to respond to Draco in a cruel manner as no other explanation would have satisfied Draco when he stumbled on the Occulemency lesson. The problem I have with Snape's explanation is that perhaps Draco would buy the idea of remedial potion lessons but Lucious would not. I would be surprised if Lucious thought Harry ever needed remedial potion lessons. If Draco went to daddy laughing about this fact, Lucious might be suspicious enough to tell Voldemort of his potential miss-trust of Snape.

Out of all the characters I find Snape’s personality the most difficult to understand due to the lack of information provided. The only thing I am sure of is that Snape can be deceitful and lie to others but in this case it was a lie to defend the order and a risky one at that.

May be all the death eaters do not know that Snape is a death eater but the Malfoy family must know or Snape would have never hidden the fact that he was giving Occulemency lesson to Harry from Draco. Actually the fact that Snape hid this information from the Malfoys suggests that your right, his loyalty does lie emphatically with Dumbledore. In a way Snape had to respond to Draco in a cruel manner as no other explanation would have satisfied Draco when he stumbled on the Occulemency lesson. The problem I have with Snape's explanation is that perhaps Draco would buy the idea of remedial potion lessons but Lucious would not. I would be surprised if Lucious thought Harry ever needed remedial potion lessons. If Draco went to daddy laughing about this fact, Lucious might be suspicious enough to tell Voldemort of his potential miss-trust of Snape.
I would agree that it certainly looks like Lucius might know that Snape was/is a DE. As to whether any of the other DEs know is anybody's guess. Karkaroff knew about Snape, and it can be implied that Quirrell knew, but is there any indication that Crouch Jr knew or any of the other DEs?

I'm not sure I would use the remedial potions excuse as evidence of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore or as potentially dangerous re Lucius. For all we know (at that point) Snape could have been using the occlumency lessons for getting closer to Harry and passing information to Voldemort. It wouldn't have served Snape to tell Draco the truth - Draco is notorious for telling tales and Harry's occlumency lessons with Snape would be all round the school by dinner time. How pleased would Dumbledore, McGonagall etc not be if this got out.

How much information does Draco pass to his father about Harry? It's possible that, for Draco, the remedial potions wouldn't have been something he communicated to his father, but even with the risk of Lucius finding out and the potential for Snape/Harry's cover to be blown, this is certainly a lot better than telling the truth. (As Snape is an excellent occlumens, if challenged by Lucius it's highly probable that he would be able to counter the challenge.)
Out of all the characters I find Snape’s personality the most difficult to understand due to the lack of information provided. The only thing I am sure of is that Snape can be deceitful and lie to others but in this case it was a lie to defend the order and a risky one at that.
Snape's personality is difficult to understand, but I don't think it's down to a lack of information. We actually get quite a lot from his interaction with other characters, not to mention what Harry sees in his occlumency lessons and in the pensieve. What makes Snape difficult to figure, IMO, is the fact that we only see him through Harry and it's difficult to see what Snape is truly like with the bias Harry has. Nor does it help that Snape himself has a bias against Harry.

There really isn't any evidence that anyone in the Order dislikes Snape--other than Sirius. In fact, Molly quite pointedly reminds Harry to call Snape by his title, echoing Dumbledore's frequent prompts. In a previous discussion here, we actually discovered that Snape has at the very least a respectful relationship with Hagrid and Filch.

As for Snape sneaking around the school at night as a student--I can't recall a specific piece of evidence...Sirius says Snape followed them around, but doesn't specify when that was happening; the only one we know for sure is his following Lupin to the Willow.

As for Snape's "cruel manner" towards Draco in lying to him about Potter's being there for Remedial Potions...I don't see it. He tells Malfoy, "It's all right, Draco" (p. 638, OotP, US hardcover)--the only other character in the five novels that he calls by first name is Karkaroff. And Remedial Potions is a great excuse for Harry's being in the dungeon: the primary person who is not to know the real purpose is Umbridge; since Harry is hardly anywhere near a top student in Potions, it makes it likely that he would need extra help. Which is also why I can't see Lucius Malfoy having the slightest doubt about it, even if he knew/cared. It's a very logical cover story. As Snape tells Harry right from the start: "...the headmaster thinks it is a good idea....You will receive private lessons once a week, but you will not tell anybody what you are doing, least of all Dolores Umbridge. You understand?" (p. 519).

It's clear, from the first broaching of the topic in the kitchen of 12GP, that
Snape is not doing anything nefarious: he's following Dumbledore's orders and he is not going to do any harm to Harry--any more than Dumbledore would have, had he been able to risk giving the lessons himself. The only reasons the reader casts aspersions on Snape's efforts is the Harry Filter; Sirius' undermining of Snape's teaching; and Ron's clueless suspicions. Interestingly, despite the fact that Snape told Harry in no uncertain terms not to tell anyone about the lessons--an order that had to have come from Dumbledore himself--Harry promptly tells both Hermione and Ron.

There really isn't any evidence that anyone in the Order dislikes Snape--other than Sirius. In fact, Molly quite pointedly reminds Harry to call Snape by his title, echoing Dumbledore's frequent prompts. In a previous discussion here, we actually discovered that Snape has at the very least a respectful relationship with Hagrid and Filch.

Well, Ginny says that Bill doesn't like Snape, and I can't see Lupin actively liking him (for all the benign respect he bestows on him) but I agree with you subtle that there's little evidence to suggest that the majority of them don't like him. But whether or not they like him the majority of them (with the one exception of Sirius in a blue funk) trust him and respect him.

"There really isn't any evidence that anyone in the Order dislikes Snape"
What about mad-eye moody? He distrust snape. Unless that was just the fake mad-eye?

The problem I have with Snape's explanation is that perhaps Draco would buy the idea of remedial potion lessons but Lucious would not. I would be surprised if Lucious thought Harry ever needed remedial potion lessons. If Draco went to daddy laughing about this fact, Lucious might be suspicious enough to tell Voldemort of his potential miss-trust of Snape.
I don't think this has the potential for blowing Snape's cover as much as later when in Umbridge's office Harry blurts out, "He's got Padfoot, in the place that is hidden!" Draco might not get it, but if he has a chance to run this curiosity past Lucius, the old man very well could put 2 and 2 together.

I would agree that it certainly looks like Lucius might know that Snape was/is a DE. As to whether any of the other DEs know is anybody's guess. Karkaroff knew about Snape, and it can be implied that Quirrell knew, but is there any indication that Crouch Jr knew or any of the other DEs?
Certainly Crouch Jr knew Snape had been a DE. That was what was underlying his dislike of Snape as Imposter Moody. "But I say that some spots don't come off." Or something like that. He despised any of the DEs who got off and didn't go to Azkaban.

About who in the Order likes or dislikes Snape, I have a sneaking suspicion that among the adults, whether it's the teachers or members of the Order, while they might find him irritating on occasion, I also think that many of them, like some of us, also find his acerbic wit pretty funny. If only as a guilty pleasure, you understand.

Certainly Crouch Jr knew Snape had been a DE. That was what was underlying his dislike of Snape as Imposter Moody. "But I say that some spots don't come off." Or something like that. He despised any of the DEs who got off and didn't go to Azkaban.

You're right he does say that and it certainly could be that he's talking about Snape. However, when fake Moody makes that comment, his 'magical eye was fixed on the bottom left-hand corner of the map'. That suggests to me that he was looking the portion of the map that covers the grounds which means that it's possible that he was looking at the lake and therefore that it was Karkaroff not Snape he was talking about.
Edit: shamefully accepts that the bottom left hand corner was Snape's office. Hangs head in shame. :blush:

Just one example of a contrast is his ability to produce a Patronus, yet his inability to pay attention in class...Potions and History of Magic being two of the worst instances. The combination is what seems almost enough to drive Snape to drink in OotP: Harry has all the ability in the world to learn Occlumency, but won't focus and do it; he won't harness what he has and use it.
Laughs, drive Snape to drink? I hope our Snape has the wine "merry", now that could be interesting ;)
But yeah, I think that is one of the things that drives Snape nuts about Harry - all that potential, and the boy does not exercise it properly! How does he count on vanquishing Voldemort, with his best smile? :rotfl:

It really annoyed me how Harry consciously refused to practice for Occlumency. OK, he had once used it very usefully, to save Arthur Weasley - and he did not hear all the other explanations that he ought to "shut his mind". Nah, Potter boy is too strong, he can manage those invasions from Vodly :td: ... (Ok, re-reading that, it may sound way too strong, too "Snapish" - I can understand the saving people thing, really.)

The young Snape sneaks around the school just like Harry does now (edit: that is the point I was trying to put across, not the fact that he is a teacher snooping around but that he also snooped around the school as a child). In a way that probably gives Snape more authority on patrolling the school and ensuring the likes of Harry and his friends don't get themselves into as much trouble as he did when he was younger (I am thinking about the Lupin incident and no doubt many other things caught young Snape's inquisitive mind back then).
I like the idea that Snape sees himself in Harry's curiousity.
Interesting that Kenaz is associated with craftsmen--potions, anyone? Which Snape calls both an art and a science.
:tu: Good one, subtle!

We have a character named "Potter," too, LOL. Making pottery is both an art and a science, too.
Your comment about Snape's sneaking around the school and getting into what isn't his business is an idea I've read in a few places around the forums...It's something that is quite odd to me. Snape isn't sneaking, nor is what he finds not his business: he's a faculty member patrolling the school. It is quite clearly his job. It's Harry who is sneaking and into what is not his business; it's Harry who is in the wrong. Another instance of the Harry Filter at work: because we see Harry's point of view, and Harry feels justified, suddenly the teacher is the one who is out of order...Who's in the right and who's in the wrong become inverted.
Very good point! Snape is the grown-up, not Harry. But the book is from his point of view, so we see Snape through the resentful eyes of a kid who wants his own way and someone is stopping him.

I can't believe how this thread intersects with my reading. Last night I just picked up GoF at random and started reading the Barty Crouch Veritaserum confession, and read something that seemed to suddenly jump out at me. Barty is talking about Bertha Jorkins coming to the Crouch house to get some papers signed - which is her job, after all. She hears Winky talking to Barty Jr. in the kitchen while he is under the invisibility cloak and puts two and two together:

GoF, Chapter 35, page 685, American

"A witch in my father's office. Bertha Jorkins. She came to the house with papers for my father's signature. He was not at home. Winky showed her inside and returned to the kitchen, to me. But Bertha Jorkins heard Winky talking to me. She came to investigate. She heard enough to guess who was hiding under the Invisibility Cloak. My father arrived home. She confronted him. He put a very powerful Memory Charm on her to make her forget what she'd found out. Too powerful. He said it damaged her memory permanently."

"Why is she coming to nose into my master's private business?" sobbed Winky. "Why isn't she leaving us be?"

Let's see, where have we seen a situation like this before . . . :huh:

The word "nose" certainly does come up alot, doesn't it? The parallel, for me, is with Snape and the werewolf incident. Just as Harry faults Snape for following him around the school, and Winky faults Bertha Jorkins for discovery the Crouch's secret, the Marauders faulted Snape for figuring out some of their secrets, for instance that Lupin was a werewolf. Look at how similar this is to what Lupin says in PoA:

PoA, Chapter 18, page 356, American

"Professor Snape was at school with us. He fought very hard against my appointment to the Defense Against the Dark Arts job. He has been telling Dumbledore all year that I am not to be trusted. He has his reasons . . . you see, Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me --"
Black made a derisive noise.
"It served him right," he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to . . . hoping he could get us expelled. . . . "

:lol: I never thought I would find a Sirius/Winky comparison, but there it is, LOL.

In GoF, we see a drunken Winky, and Dobby says that Winky is drinking 6 butterbeers a day because she can't accept Dumbledore as her new master. That reminds me of Sirius trapped at Grimmauld Place, bitter because he has to follow orders from Dumbledore. :tu:

Winky goes on and on about "Nosey" people:

GoF, Chapter 28, page 538

"Winky keeps -hic- her master's secrets," she said mutinously, swaying very heavily now, frowing up at Harry with her eyes crossed. "you is -hic- nosing, you is."

"Winky must not talk like that to Harry Potter!" said Dobby angrily. "Harry Potter is brave and noble and Harry Potter is not nosy!"

"He is nosing - hic - into my master's - hic- private and secret - hic - Winky is good house-elf - hic - Winky keeps her silence - hic - people trying to - hic - pry and poke - hic -" :evil:

That is alot like Lupin's insult in the Marauder's Map:

"Mr. Moony presents his compliments to Professor Snape and begs him to keep his abnormally large nose out of other people's business."

And of course, in Snape's Worst Memory, not only is Snape called "Snivellus," an obvious nose reference, but then Sirius attacks Snape's appearance, especially his nose!

The "mirror" of the Crouches and Winky compared to Lupin and the Marauders is interesting because it is all about blaming someone else when a dangerous secret is exposed. Snape almost gets killed by a Werewolf - Bertha's mind is damaged by Mr. Crouch and she is later killed by Voldemort. If you look at Bertha as a "mirror" for Snape, then they are both innocent victims, guilty only of too much curiousity.

There is more to this, if we dig into it, but that's all I've got for now.

Wow, I stay away for a day or two and you people just come up with so much great stuff! No surprise there, though.
Snape and Harry; they are very similar: both bullied as children and both with curiosity about things they shouldn't be checking into. They both use words to defend themselves. (I love sarcasm, myself) And both are good, if not great, wizards. We haven't seen Snape use his wand too much, but like Remus, I suspect he is very good with it.
Harry, we know, is very powerful. Like Subtle (I think it was you?) said, he needs to learn to harness it and control his emotions. When he learns to focus and direct his power, he will be ready to face LV.
I cling to the fact that JKR has said "the time for questions has passed; it's time for answers", or something to that effect. There are only 2 books left :(, and we still have Far more questions than answers, so I think we will start getting many answers in HBP. But we will ever find out if Snape and Harry learn to get along? Not like eachother, but just get along? I think they will Have to learn to do that, and that is one of the reasons I think DD will die in HBP. It will be a catalyst for so much that, IMO, needs to happen for Harry to fulfill his destiny.

There really isn't any evidence that anyone in the Order dislikes Snape--other than Sirius. In fact, Molly quite pointedly reminds Harry to call Snape by his title, echoing Dumbledore's frequent prompts. In a previous discussion here, we actually discovered that Snape has at the very least a respectful relationship with Hagrid and Filch.That is a point but then again how many order members are still alive, funny enough the ones that either pity Snape or do not get in his way are not dead. Two of main order members, James and Sirius are dead and did dislike Snape, I just wonder how many other order members who are dead now felt the same way as Sirius or James and whether any of those where killed by Snape before he joined the order.

Hagrid, Molly and Filch trust Dumbledore's word on Snape but then again Dumbledore trusted Moody, the imposter who pulled the wool over Dumbledore's face and as a result Cedric died. Dumbledore is not perfect, he can make mistakes and big ones at that because he could not tell that one of his own order members was an imposter. If Dumbledore can not tell the difference between a polyjuice Moody then what chance has he in distinguishing the true character of Snape. This is the only thing that causes concern over Dumbeldore's trust in Snape.

I would love to believe that Snape is all good and has truly changed because it gives hope that not all death eaters believe in Voldemort's ideals and that Slytherins as a whole can change. I get the feeling that we might be convinced that Snape is a death eater in the next book to only find that it was part of the over all plan put forward by Dumbledore in the seventh and that Snape truly is working for the order due to Dumbledore's words in GoF and OotP.

Edit:The "mirror" of the Crouches and Winky compared to Lupin and the Marauders is interesting because it is all about blaming someone else when a dangerous secret is exposed. Snape almost gets killed by a Werewolf - Bertha's mind is damaged by Mr. Crouch and she is later killed by Voldemort. If you look at Bertha as a "mirror" for Snape, then they are both innocent victims, guilty only of too much curiousity.Do you think that is why young Snape ended up working for Voldemort because he stuck his nose into the death eaters buisness by accident and to save his own life ended up working for Voldemort."He is nosing - hic - into my master's - hic- private and secret - hic - Winky is good house-elf - hic - Winky keeps her silence - hic - people trying to - hic - pry and poke - hic -" :evil: [/I]This is interesting, people trying to pry and poke, which people are trying to get information from Winky while at Hogwarts, Snape perhaps.

Tane: You can look at it a totally different way, too.

By choosing to swap places with Moody, Barty Crouch picked a person with a fake magical eye, and therefore someone whose thoughts are hard to read. In some scenes, Fake Moody tells the complete truth; for instance, when Harry's name comes out of the Goblet, Fake Moody goes through the factual evidence, saying that someone wants Harry dead, and that it had to be someone powerful to fool the Goblet. That is all true, and may have been exactly what Dumbledore and Snape were thinking anyway, so they had no need to question Moody's ideas. They were much more concerned with checking out Harry's story than Moody's.

Add to that Moody's natural paranoid nature, and the fact that the "eye" makes Snape a little nervous, since Moody was an auror who thought Snape was guilty back in the day, and you have a situation in which no one is really looking at Moody too closely.

Who would suspect him of being a DE? He bounces Malfoy's son around as a freaky ferret! So there is alot of evidence that Moody is who he says he is. And except for the odd circumstances of the name getting into he Goblet, nothing goes wrong for Harry till the very end of the Tournament, when they catch Fake Moody.

:sad: It is horrible that Cedric had to die, but it is one of those situations in which it isn't Dumbledore's fault, but the act of a cold hearted killer. JKR has said she wrote it that way to show how little life means to either Voldemort or Peter - they are mean and nasty killers. So how can you blame Dumbledore for that?

That is a point but then again how many order members are still alive, funny enough the ones that either pity Snape or do not get in his way are not dead. Two of main order members, James and Sirius are dead and did dislike Snape, I just wonder how many other order members who are dead now felt the same way as Sirius or James and whether any of those where killed by Snape before he joined the order.
Yes, James and Sirius are dead and they both hated Snape, and Snape hated them. But it is a leap of logic to say Snape is responsible because they all disliked eachother.

There is no way of knowing what all the other dead Order members thought of Snape. :huh: Hopefully we will get some answers. But there is no canon to show that all of them hated Snape at all.

All we can do is watch Snape's actions now, and see how the Order respects him, and I agree with Subtle that they do. No one ever says a word against him except Sirius. There are more people in the Order than just those at Grimmauld Place. After what people went through in the last War, why would they trust Snape if they didn't have good reasons? Why would they believe in Dumbledore if they thought Snape was a DE who was going to turn on them all. There is a backstory here that we don't know about. Snape has done something to help the entire Order at some point, or he has helped some people stay alive, or something, for him to be trusted the way he is, right in the middle of the Order giving reports on the first night Harry is at Grimmauld Place.

Whoops - didn't see your edit!
Do you think that is why young Snape ended up working for Voldemort because he stuck his nose into the death eaters buisness by accident and to save his own life ended up working for Voldemort.
Sometimes I do see that as a possibility. Or perhaps, Snape followed some of the older students, such as Lucius Malfoy, and was "inducted" before he knew what he was getting into. How long would it take to put the Dark Mark on someone? Snape might have been recruited for his Potions-making abilities, or his reputation as school as knowing alot of curses and Dark Magic. As Quirrel says in Book One, he "does seem the type," but that is a stereotype, and JKR has said that she isn not going to have a "villain in black and say 'kill him.'" She said she wants to show how evil is attractive, and Snape isn't attractive, but maybe evil was attractive to him at one time.

This is interesting, people trying to pry and poke, which people are trying to get information from Winky while at Hogwarts, Snape perhaps.
Snape, perhaps, or Dumbledore himself! Harry is the one questioning her in that scene, and all he does is ask an intelligent question before she calls him "nosey."

exiguumus--The bottom left-hand corner of the Map shows Snape's office: Harry sees it on p. 466 (US paper), noticing "But the dot wasn't labeled 'Severus Snape'...it was Bartemius Crouch." Later, when FakeMoody is looking at the Map, he is looking at the same spot: ""'Oh if there's one thing I hate,' he muttered, more to himself than to Harry, and his magical eye was fixed on the left-hand corner of the Map, 'it's a Death Eater who walked free....'" (p. 476). The 'spot' line is delivered directly to Snape: "'Course Dumbledore trusts you,' growled Moody. 'He's a trusting man, isn't he? Believes in second chances,. But me--I say there are spots that don't come off, nape. Spots that never come off, d'you know what I mean?'" (p. 472). Crouch Junior clearly knows that Snape is a DE (although he doesn't seem to know that it is officially "ex-DE") and he groups Snape with the other DEs who did not go to Azkaban or search for their master. Later, after the third task, he questions Harry about Voldemort's treatment of such DEs.

silver ink pot--A Winky/Sirius mirror. Who would've thought? Not to overlook: Harry notices that Sirius has been drinking, as well!

Tane--It isn't even know that Snape was in the first Order, never mind your implication that he was systematically eliminating people he disliked! Plus--despite the fact that Snape hated James, it was Pettigrew--not Snape--who arranged for the Potters' deaths...assisted, unwittingly, by Sirius, who decided to have Pettigrew be the Secret Keeper. As for the rest of the people in the first Order who died--Marlene McKinnon, Benjy Fenwick, Edgar Bones, Caradoc Dearborn, Gideon and Fabina Prewett, and Dorcas Meadowes (pp. 174-175, OotP, US hardcover)--absolutely nothing links them with Snape...or anyone else, except Voldemort, who "killed [Meadowes] personally." It's a bit sweeping to pronounce that not only did the Order members dislike Snape, but that he somehow arranged their deaths....

As for Sirius' death, in the second Order and the one to which Snape does definitely belong...Well, it is a bit difficult to assign Sirius the designation of 'main Order member,' since he does nothing but provide 12GP as headquarters and hides there. He would not have died had he listened to Snape's request and stayed behind at 12GP to inform Dumbledore of events the night of the DoM battle. And it is Dumbledore who tells Harry that Snape did this.

Dumbledore may not have realized that Voldemort planted a spy in his midst, anymore than Voldemort realizes Dumbledore has done the same with Snape. However, there is a pretty large difference between not detecting FakeMoody, whom Dumbledore has absolutely no reason to mistrust at all, and figuring out that Snape is for real. We're still waiting on the backstory--but Dumbledore was contacted by a young man who told him he was a DE...so Dumbledore had reason to mistrust this person and to take whatever he said with great consideration and caution. Whatever Snape said convinced Dumbledore, enough that Dumbledore 'personally vouched' for Snape before the Magical Law Enforcement council. In other words, Dumbledore staked his own reputation on Snape's truthfulness. It is to be noted that Dumbledore did not do the same for Sirius Black, who had been a member of the Order prior to being accused of murder. So--this wasn't some light fancy Dumbledore took into his head, to have a tame DE on staff: somehow, he knows he can trust Snape...and he declares that quite emphatically at the end of OotP. Not to mention the fact that Dumbledore would have to be rather dim not to be able to pick up on any less-than-loyal impulses from Snape over the course of 15 years' association--a bit of a longer time than FakeMoody's three quarters of a school year, during which he had few interactions with Dumbledore.

And...Dumbledore would be exceptionally foolish to rely upon an untrustworthy Snape to be at his side when he broke through the door to rescue Harry from FakeMoody. If nothing else, were Snape a faithful DE, Dumbledore just put himself in the position of having Snape turn and support FakeMoody, resulting in Dumbledore and McGonagall's facing the even odds against two Death Eaters, with Harry in the crossfire.

And...Dumbledore would be exceptionally foolish to rely upon an untrustworthy Snape to be at his side when he broke through the door to rescue Harry from FakeMoody. If nothing else, were Snape a faithful DE, Dumbledore just put himself in the position of having Snape turn and support FakeMoody, resulting in Dumbledore and McGonagall's facing the even odds against two Death Eaters, with Harry in the crossfire.
Subtle: That is a fantastic point! That would have been Snape's moment of glory, wouldn't it? Harry was hurt and shaken up, Dumbledore was preoccupied about Harry and Cedric, McGonagall is an old woman. Barty would have fought like a wild animal if Snape had backed him up, considering how much the "most loyal servant" wanted to go back to Voldemort. It would have been a hard fight, but with the element of surprise, one of the two DEs might have gotten out alive and taken Harry back to the Dark Lord.

But none of it happened, because Snape is loyal to both Dumbledore and McGongall.

Subtle: That is a fantastic point! That would have been Snape's moment of glory, wouldn't it? Harry was hurt and shaken up, Dumbledore was preoccupied about Harry and Cedric, McGonagall is an old woman. Barty would have fought like a wild animal if Snape had backed him up, considering how much the "most loyal servant" wanted to go back to Voldemort. It would have been a hard fight, but with the element of surprise, one of the two DEs might have gotten out alive and taken Harry back to the Dark Lord.

But none of it happened, because Snape is loyal to both Dumbledore and McGongall.

While you and subtle science have a great and convincing point, I wanted to emphasize one minor setback. Would Snape really be brave enough to fight Albus Dumbledore ? While I agree that Snape could have joined Moody in taking Harry to Voldemort, he would have to get past Dumbledore before doing it. Despite all the rewards that he would have gotten from Voldemort, would Snape really be able to take such a risk when it could mean that he would have to fight Dumbledore before achieving it? I still think that even though Snape had to chance to do it, he wouldn't because he knows Dumbledore would probably curse him into oblivion. Even when faced with the possibility of achieving true glory in Voldemort's eyes, he would have suffered great risk to his own life since it would mean trying to get past Dumbledore. I hope I'm not being too confusing in how I said it.

However, if Snape is that fanatical--that he has spent 15 years undercover as Voldemort's spy at Hogwarts--why not? As silver ink pot points out, since Dumbledore would be so utterly clueless to have brought Voldemort's other faithful servant with him, thinking mistakenly that Snape was on his side, Snape would have the element of surprise on his side. And Snape's no idiot: the first one you take down is Dumbledore, before he even realizes that he's been fooled for 15 solid years. Get him, in fact, as he goes through the door, from behind. He wouldn't even know what hit him; all it takes is a simple Avada Kedavra.

And Dumbledore might as well be killed, since his reputation would be in tatters, anyway--dumb enough to be taken in by a supposedly reformed DE, dumb enough to lay his own reputation on the line for the kid, and monumentally dumb enough to take him along to attack a fellow DE...with only one other person. Who would be left to face two DEs on her own, one in front and one behind her.

This version of the book actually works out quite well. It just is rather distasteful.

And Harry is classic in his combination of having great power, but not necessarily great control at this point. He obviously has enormous talent, combined with a sharp mind, but he is not yet disciplined. Just one example of a contrast is his ability to produce a Patronus, yet his inability to pay attention in class...Potions and History of Magic being two of the worst instances. The combination is what seems almost enough to drive Snape to drink in OotP: Harry has all the ability in the world to learn Occlumency, but won't focus and do it; he won't harness what he has and use it.
Yes, and he tells Harry that it is like breaking the Imperious Curse, and yet Harry only manages it when Snape touches on something that Harry really doesn't want Snape to see. It is very obvious to Snape that Harry isn't trying, which is probably enough to set any teacher's teeth on edge. And Snape generally isn't the most patient teacher, rather like McGonagall.

For me, one of the key moments that reaffirmed by belief that Snape is a 'good guy' was his communication to the Order following the scene when Harry reveals that the DEs have 'got' Padfoot. It would have been easy enough for Snape to not do this and to say later, if called on it, that he didn't understand what Harry was getting at. Instead he informed the Order 'as soon as possible' and it was Snape who worked out where Harry had gone (as per Dumbledore, p 734 OotP, UK edn). Up to that point, most of Snape's actions can be seen as possibly being pro-Voldemort, possibly being pro-Order, but at that point there can be no doubting, IMO, which side Snape is on.
This is a excellent point. Although, there are those who say that the "as soon as possible" is a reason to doubt. I have to admit, I wonder what delayed him. There are too many instances, IMO, of Snape doing what was in Dumbledore's interest instead of Voldemort's for him to still be loyal to Voldemort. (Oops, that started as Volemrot)

NYCWitch: Of course it would be taking a great risk to go up against Dumbledore, but Snape has another chance to rescue Barty, Jr., and he doesn't take it. Dumbledore leaves, I think to talk to Cedric Diggory's parents, and Snape and McGonagall are left in the castle with Fudge, and the Dementor is called in. Snape could have fought off McGonagall and Fudge, rescued Barty, Jr., and probably gotten Harry out of the hospital wing, all before Dumbledore returned.

But, again, he doesn't do anything. He certainly doesn't speak up for Barty's right to keep his soul, the way McGonagall does. He lets the Dementor have him. I think that sums up his sense of "Fellowship" with another DE, lol.

I would love to believe that Snape is all good and has truly changed because it gives hope that not all death eaters believe in Voldemort's ideals and that Slytherins as a whole can change. I get the feeling that we might be convinced that Snape is a death eater in the next book to only find that it was part of the over all plan put forward by Dumbledore in the seventh and that Snape truly is working for the order due to Dumbledore's words in GoF and OotP.

Edit:Do you think that is why young Snape ended up working for Voldemort because he stuck his nose into the death eaters buisness by accident and to save his own life ended up working for Voldemort.

Yes, I can see Jo pulling that trick on us, after her "Watch out for Snape" (approximately) comment. Then we're gonna see some of the Snape-haters dancing around happily until book VII :upset: But who laughs last laughs best :p

Hmm... I tend to think Snape's too bright for having being caught in the DEs like that. I'm afraid it was of his own will and purpose. He has gone a long way, simce :rotfl:

Potions Student: I don't mean to say that Snape was "tricked" into being a DE. Not at all. I firmly believe that since "choices" are a main theme of the books, then Snape made his own choice. But I think he regretted his choice, just the way Sirius Black lived to regret talking the Potters into using Peter as secret keeper.

I think he made the choice himself to be a DE, maybe due to the way the Marauder's treated him, or maybe he was hoping to finally fit in somewhere. Maybe he trusted someone who told him it was going to be great? Young muggles make choices based on similar reasons, and get into things out of their depth all the time.

Sirius Black says his parents were fooled by Voldemort and didn't understand what it was all about till their own son, Regulus, was dead. Snape might have had the same reaction as Regulus and the Black's to all of Voldemort's evil plans.

I think he made the choice himself to be a DE, maybe due to the way the Marauder's treated him, or maybe he was hoping to finally fit in somewhere. Maybe he trusted someone who told him it was going to be great? Young muggles make choices based on similar reasons, and get into things out of their depth all the time.
I've often thought that the DE might have been like a gang to Snape. They replaced the (family?) that he had and gave him a sense of belonging. Or he could have fallen in with the Pureblood idea, but given Lily's reaction to the mudblood slur during SWM, I tend to doubt that.

CLKGinny: I agree. I think the DEs may have been like a gang to Snape, which is interesting considering he's somewhat of an introverted loner.

Sirius used the Marauders as his surrogate family, so I think the DEs did fill that gap for Snape. Maybe, perhaps.

That depends on whether the death eater was following Voldemort's direct orders not to kill Dumbledore but to just bring back Harry. If Snape and Crouch Jr. had tried to kill Dumbledore and take Harry then the element of surprise would have been lost. The ministry would have come to the conclusion that Voldemort had indeed returned and that would have seriously jeopardized the dark lords plans. Not only that but Snape is not that stupid, he knows when a plan has gone all wrong and can calculate the odds of taking Harry from Dumbledore at that moment as very low indeed. Attacking the headmaster in a school magically protected with magical defenses would have deadly consequences.

All it proves is that Snape would rather live to fight another day than die foolishly protecting Crouch Jr.

Actually it does suggest that Snape is again loyal to Dumbledore or just the fact that one day he would like to become DADA of Hogwarts himself rather than give the school to Voldemort. I think Dumbledore’s hold on Snape remains because he wants the DADA position more than anything else or to become the master of the school as he stated in CoS.

Perhaps we can look to the idea of the traits of the Slytherins: perhaps Snape was looking for allies, rather than friends or family? Power, strength, intimidation...and somebody to back him up against people like the Marauders. James and Sirius were pretty brave there in SWM (*cough*) to take on Snape, who was alone, when they also had two more friends waiting in the wings just in case..... I'm not a big adherent to the 'he probably deserved anyway' mentality, anyway, but that scene of 2 (+ 2 if they decided to join) against 1 was pretty revolting. Joining the DEs would seem a logical response--you don't have to trust or like them; they just need to be around during ambushes....in fact, maybe with their help, you start to turn the tables.

That depends on whether the death eater was following Voldemort's direct orders not to kill Dumbledore but to just bring back Harry. If Snape and Crouch Jr. had tried to kill Dumbledore and take Harry then the element of surprise would have been lost. The ministry would have come to the conclusion that Voldemort had indeed returned and that would have seriously jeopardized the dark lords plans. Not only that but Snape is not that stupid, he knows when a plan has gone all wrong and can calculate the odds of taking Harry from Dumbledore at that moment as very low indeed. Attacking the headmaster in a school magically protected with magical defenses would have deadly consequences.
Yes, but you're assuming that Snape had to get Harry out of the school in order for the "plan" to succeed. However, Barty's plan doesn't seem to have been to take Harry with him at all. He wanted to get Harry away from Dumbledore to hear more about what Voldemort said and did to those returning. When he found out that they were being forgiven, he is thrilled. He explains that he helped Harry win the tournament so Voldemort could have his blood and return.

His wand is pointing at Harry's heart the whole time he is talking. Then he says:

GoF, Chapter 35, pages 678-9, American

"The Dark Lord didn't manage to kill you, Potter, and he so wanted to," whispered Moody. "Imagine how he will reward me when he finds I have done it for him. I gave you to him -- the thing he needed above all to regenerate -- and then I killed you for him. I will be honored beyond all other Death Eaters. I will be his dearest, his closest supporter . . . closer than a son . . . "

. . . You're mad," Harry said -- he couldn't stop himself -- "you're mad!"

"Mad, am I?" said Moody, his voice rising uncontrollably. "We'll see. We'll see who's mad, now that the Dark Lord has returned with me at his side. He is back, Harry Potter, you did not conquer him -- and now -- I conquer you!"

Moody raised his wand, he opened his mouth; Harry plunged his own hand into his robes --

"Stupefy!" There was a blinding flash of red light, and with a great splintering and crashing, the door of Moody's office was blasted apart --

After Snape, Dumbledore, and McGonagall come into the room, Dumbledore sends the other two away on errands and they go without a single question. When Snape returns with Winky, he seems stunned that Fake Moody was Barty Crouch, and that seems to mean that he didn't know about any plan at all.

Besides, if the only plan Voldemort cared about at that point was killing Harry, Snape could have arranged it many times during OotP. Why keep him alive? If Snape were a willing DE, he would want the glory that Barty Crouch dreamed about: being like a son to Voldemort.

Instead, Snape acts more like a son to Dumbledore!

Perhaps we can look to the idea of the traits of the Slytherins: perhaps Snape was looking for allies, rather than friends or family? Power, strength, intimidation...and somebody to back him up against people like the Marauders. James and Sirius were pretty brave there in SWM (*cough*) to take on Snape, who was alone, when they also had two more friends waiting in the wings just in case..... I'm not a big adherent to the 'he probably deserved anyway' mentality, anyway, but that scene of 2 (+ 2 if they decided to join) against 1 was pretty revolting. Joining the DEs would seem a logical response--you don't have to trust or like them; they just need to be around during ambushes....in fact, maybe with their help, you start to turn the tables.
Great post, Subtle (as usual). Your scenario sounds like perhaps Snape was looking for versions of Crabbe and Goyle ~ bodyguards more than friends. I think that's a very good point.

That depends on whether the death eater was following Voldemort's direct orders not to kill Dumbledore but to just bring back Harry. If Snape and Crouch Jr. had tried to kill Dumbledore and take Harry then the element of surprise would have been lost. The ministry would have come to the conclusion that Voldemort had indeed returned and that would have seriously jeopardized the dark lords plans. Not only that but Snape is not that stupid, he knows when a plan has gone all wrong and can calculate the odds of taking Harry from Dumbledore at that moment as very low indeed. Attacking the headmaster in a school magically protected with magical defenses would have deadly consequences.But then why do we see all three of their faces in Fake Moody's 'Foeglass'? If Snape were at all on BC Jrs side, then his face would not appear as it does when they enter the doorway to the office.

Also, I'm not sure if Voldemort really planned on having his comeback be a secret. Afterall, he did plan to kill Harry - that would have been a bright glowing beacon shouting "I'm back" if you ask me. :eyebrows: I think he's glad later (in ootp) that the Ministry is ignoring his return, because it makes his new plan of stealing the prophecy easier to accomplish than otherwise.

Billywiggy: Good thoughts. :tu:

Besides Snape and Dumbledore already know that Voldemort is trying to come back, since Snape's Dark Mark is returning. What they didn't know was how he planned to do it, but I think they must have had some hunches, because of Dumbledore's "look of triumph," when Harry tells about Peter taking his blood to put in the cauldron.

So the plan was secret, but the return was expected.

Great point, Billywiggy, about Voldemort's lack of secrecy. It seems to me that the whole ending of GoF is for Voldemort to announce his return in a blaze of glory, by taking out Harry. After GoF, it's on to Plan B, methinks! ("Curses, foiled again!")

Tane--I really doubt that the only reason Snape is loyal to Dumbledore is his hopes of becoming the DADA teacher. If he really does want that position...which is a whole other issue--is it a double blind, supporting the cover of the spy?...he might have gotten the message in 15 years that he hasn't gotten yet, and he's pinning all his hopes and risking his life spying for the Order on a teaching position. It would be a poor bargain, for him to risk death every time he goes to Voldemort, for that lone, dubious reward. And it seems an especially weak reason to be loyal to Dumbledore, considering Dumbledore's testimony on his behalf. It seems rather more logical for Snape to be loyal to Dumbledore in gratitude for Dumbledore's personal avowal of his true alleginace. Which, actually, Dumbledore does twice--the first that we do not see, and the repetition of it duirng Karkaroff's hearing that Harry witnesses in the Pensieve.

I don't recall him calling himself master of the school in CoS; I do remember that he does so in PoA, when the Map is not responding:

"Professor Snape, master of this school, commands you to yield the information you conceal!" Snape said, hitting the map with his wand (p. 286, US paper).

And technically, he is...one of the two--Only he and Dumbledore have the titles of master. That adds a nice bit of symmetry to the Trio that burst through the door: Headmaster, Deputy Headmistress, and Potions Master--and hints at the relative positions of each in the school.

silver ink pot--Maybe a slightly brighter incarnation of Crabbe and Goyle.... : ) (although, technically, that requirement could be fulfilled by a sunflower--at least that registers and reacts to its environmental changes).

I find it interesting that JKR is using the healing charm as a killing curse

JKR could make me, therefore, very happy if Snape turned out not only to be an ex-Death Eater, but also that 'gifted healer' claimed on the wizard cards. Death/life; destroyer/healer; kill/cure.

- then there is also the association of snakes with healing & medicine (i.e the caudeuceus as a symbol of medicine - asclepius & snakes) - and it can be interesting to go on to play around with the relevent names here & their associations i.e. Snape/snake, brewer of poisons/potions/medicines. I think there is a major choice aound this character - he could either be used to heal or be used to poison. A lot may depend on how he is treated/responded to in the future (especially if DD does go out of the picture) as to what way the river turns ...

silver ink pot--Maybe a slightly brighter incarnation of Crabbe and Goyle.... : ) (although, technically, that requirement could be fulfilled by a sunflower--at least that registers and reacts to its environmental changes).

Subtle: :) You've inspired me! I know this isn't as good as Don Voldemorto, but I'm just as proud of it for some foolish reason, LOL:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/SunflowerCrabbeandGoylelittle.jpg

SIP, you make me laugh!!! :rotfl:

That was hilarious, SIP!!

A couple of bloomin' idiots! :rotfl:

I have way too much time on my hands, LOL.

Naughty, SIP, I shall blame you if I ruined my keyboard with the water that I unintentionally sprayed in the vicinity.

Water? clkginny, you are entirely too healthy for me! Diet Sierra Mist, all the way. Unless, of course, it's time for some adult beverages when I indulge my taste for a nice white wine. But, I should stop before I get in trouble.

Sorry, Ginny. :evil:


JKR could make me, therefore, very happy if Snape turned out not only to be an ex-Death Eater, but also that 'gifted healer' claimed on the wizard cards. Death/life; destroyer/healer; kill/cure.
- then there is also the association of snakes with healing & medicine (i.e the caudeuceus as a symbol of medicine - asclepius & snakes) - and it can be interesting to go on to play around with the relevent names here & their associations i.e. Snape/snake, brewer of poisons/potions/medicines. I think there is a major choice aound this character - he could either be used to heal or be used to poison. A lot may depend on how he is treated/responded to in the future (especially if DD does go out of the picture) as to what way the river turns ...
In my silliness, I overlooked all your great points, Thestralgrin. There is no doubt in my mind that a Potions Master must have some knowledge of healing. He deals with poisons, but also antidotes. He teaches them "Strengthening Solution"! Snape may be a Slytherin, but the book he always uses for Potions is an herb book ~ an intriguingly Hufflepuff thing to do. :huh:

We have the Potions book on the cover of the the Adult British Version (Subtle's Avatar). It is written by someone named Libatious Borage. We talked about this on another thread, but a Libation means a drink or taste of something:

http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2000/07/30.html
Libation is from Latin libatio, from libare, to take a little from anything, to taste, to pour out as an offering.

I found some old writings about Borage that are very positive:

http://botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/b/borage66.html

Henslow suggests that the name is derived from barrach, a Celtic word meaning 'a man of courage.'

Gerard says:
'Pliny calls it Euphrosinum, because it maketh a man merry and joyfull: which thing also the old verse concerning Borage doth testifie:

Ego Borago - (I, Borage)
Gaudia semper ago. - (Bring alwaies courage.)

Those of our time do use the flowers in sallads to exhilerate and make the mind glad. There be also many things made of these used everywhere for the comfort of the heart, for the driving away of sorrow and increasing the joy of the minde. The leaves and floures of Borage put into wine make men and women glad and merry and drive away all sadnesse, dulnesse and melancholy, as Dios corides and Pliny affirme. Syrup made of the floures of Borage comforteth the heart, purgeth melancholy and quieteth the phrenticke and lunaticke person. The leaves eaten raw ingender good bloud, especially in those that have been lately sicke.'

According to Dioscorides and Pliny, Borage was the famous Nepenthe of Homer, which when drunk steeped in wine, brought absolute forgetfulness.

John Evelyn, writing at the close of the seventeenth century tells us: 'Sprigs of Borage are of known virtue to revive the hypochrondriac and cheer the hard student.'

Parkinson commends it 'to expel pensiveness and melanchollie.' Bacon says that it 'hath an excellent spirit to repress the fuliginous vapour of dusky melancholie.' Culpepper finds the plant useful in putrid and pestilential fever, the venom of serpents, jaundice, consumption, sore throat, and rheumatism.'

:huh: Used against the venom of serpents!

http://www.anagen.net/boragin.htm

History and curiosities:
From the earliest of times, borage is credited with inducing calm and fortitude and was once thought to bring courage to the heart. It was usually steeped in wine or brandy and given to travelers before a long journey, or to soldiers before battle.

Borage tea was given to competitors in tournaments of medieval times as a moral booster. "I, borage bring always courage", was a popular rhyme of the day.

The Welsh name for Borage "llawenlys" translates as "herb of gladness". The Celtic word "borrach" means "courage".

Added to wine, the Celts believed borage helped bring courage to face enemies in battle and was used to instill courage in warriors.

Ancient Greeks used the plant to treat hangovers. (Winky?)

The herb also encourages cheerfulness (probably also because of all that wine it was mixed with!). Pliny called borage "Euphrosinium" because it "maketh a man merry and joyfull. "It was traditionally used to decorate houses for weddings. :huh:

Today it is still used as an essence in ritual bath, taken as infusion, or burnt in incense to fortify one's courage and allow one to take heart and find joy in difficult circumstances. This herb imparts courage to those who carry it, or drink tea or ale in which it has been steeped.

I feel very positive about Potions class in the next book. Crossing my fingers!

Positive in the sense that Harry will start to "get it" regarding Snape, or positive in the sense that we will get to see a little more about our favorite Potions Master?
By the way, I like the point that there are 3 masters at the school: Headmaster, Headmistress and Potion Master. Who brought that up? Was it you SIP?

Vickilind, the other resident genius gets credit for that one:
And technically, he is...one of the two--Only he and Dumbledore have the titles of master. That adds a nice bit of symmetry to the Trio that burst through the door: Headmaster, Deputy Headmistress, and Potions Master--and hints at the relative positions of each in the school.

Water? clkginny, you are entirely too healthy for me! Diet Sierra Mist, all the way. Unless, of course, it's time for some adult beverages when I indulge my taste for a nice white wine. But, I should stop before I get in trouble.
Leaving aside my propensity for adult beverages...I have never been able to develop a taste for diet anything. I subsist primarily on water, coffee, tea, and Barq's Rootbeer.

I feel very positive about Potions class in the next book. Crossing my fingers!
I sincerely hope you're right, SIP.

Good Lord, i was attempting to read through this whole thread, but upon leaving last night and returning today, i see two more pages go up! Lol so forgive me, i will go back and read it all one day (i got to page 15...) because it is incredible and very insightful.
(pat on the back for you!)

Something interesting that popped into my brain while reading all your posts regarding the scene where Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape rescue Harry from Barty Crouch Jnr. I wonder in the situation had a Dementor not have given Barty the smooch, would Dumbledore have done with Barty?
Barty is the most loyal D.E., and Dumbledore is also banking that Snape (admittedly Dumbledore did not know that Voldemort had returned, but he did know the prophecy and ultimately he did suspect something was 'wrong' when Harry was dragged away and when something is wrong with Harry it pretty much has something to do with Voldemort...) when Voldemort returns, will return to Voldy's good graces as a spy. Snape bursts into the room at Voldy's opposition leader's side, to confront Voldy's most loyal D.E., who is the evil one going to believe about the situation? And it's not like he could've just sent Barty to Azkaban, Barty can still talk, and still get his message out... a bit of a pickle the wise old man was in...though i suppose, It also depends on who V, was talking about in the grave yard. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this... :)

Dumbledore is all for the law dealing with such matters and does not take the law into his own hands, Barty Crouch would have faced trial and either sent to Azkaban or given the kiss of death.

As for Snape, well look at it this way, why would he help Barty Crouch?
Why give Barty all the credit for killing Harry when Snape by getting rid of Barty could move up the death eater ranks. After all Snape wants to be top dog at most things, wants the attention, why not get rid of Barty and move up Voldemort's list importance. I guess in the end though Snape could have blocked Dumbledore's view of Harry and Barty and Barty could have killed Harry as a result but he did not probably because he is loyal to Dumbledore. Not only is Snape loyal to Dumbledore but he has also shown loyalty to Harry. Snape did not need to go and tell Dumbledore about Harry's problem and the fact that he thought Sirius was captured by Voldemort at the ministry of magic. He could have handed Harry to Voldemort there and then by saying nothing and giving Harry the chance to be caught at the ministry but he choose to be loyal to both Dumbledore and Harry at that point by getting help.

Again Snape helps Harry and Harry only condemns him for his actions. Even Dumbledore in his office at the end of OotP is confused by Harry's hatred of Snape and lack of appreciation for all his efforts over the past five years.

Even if Snape did not think it was a trap, then it shows that Snape had enough compassion to save Sirius Black's life by telling the rest of the order. Snape could have let both Harry and Sirius dies that night but instead choose to save them by informing the order.

oxymoron--Interestingly enough, Dumbledore does know that Voldemort is on his way back, about halfway through GoF...and he would have found out, if it had proved necessary, that Voldemort was completely back...because Snape told him about the Dark Mark's becoming clearer.

I'd have to guess that Dumbledore would adhere to the letter of the law--it's been his pattern throughout the books.

clkginny--"resident genius"?? (*blush!*)--I'd better be careful; I'll end up on a sunflower portrait by silver ink pot!! : )

silver ink pot--I find the whole bit about borage intriguing. The running theme throughout all of the texts on it emphasizes courage and cheer...which just happen to be two running theme in the novels. Even Harry makes the comment, when he gives George and Fred the money for the joke shop, that they'll all need some laughter in the days to come; of course, there's Dumbledore's whole courage speech at the end of PS/SS.

Potions have factored significantly into the plot so far--it's pretty funny that Harry loathes the class and doesn't seem to consider it of any particular worth...yet he uses Polyjuice; Voldemort returns by means of a potion; the truth is extracted from Jr by means of a potion....and on and on.

And I just like the rather cryptic comment that borage 'cheers the hard student'--?!

Ha, whoops i got a little lost with my post, it was a rushed post on my way to netball so let me phrase it better so i can get my meaning across. I think it odd, that when Dumbledore (lol thanks subtle for this...) DOES know Voldy is back, brings Snape along to a situation where it could almost be garunteed that the perpertraitor is a Voldy feind, and Snape's being there could be detrimental to the plan (a plan i assume Dumbledore's always counted on...) for Snape becoming a spy. It was more a thought than a genuine 'ooo what does this entail for out favourite people of the Harry Potter series' lol. I just wonder if it is a slip on Dumbledore's part, or wether he didn't care about that, as long as the wee potter lad was okay.
Lets just say the idea was lost in translation from my brain to my fingertips...

Interesting thoughts on what might have happened to Snape's cover if Barty Jr had not been kissed. I agree DD would have followed the law - but perhaps a small 'obliviate'?

I think that Dumbledore had to bring Snape along. Snape must be telling Voldemort that Dumbledore trusts him enough for him to be useful as a spy. If Dumbledore trusts Snape, why wouldn't he bring him along to capture dark wizards? If Snape wasn't there, then Voldemort might wonder whether Dumbledore trusts Snape enough for him to be a useful spy: if Snape isn't close to Dumbledore, why not kill the traitor?
Dumbledore is all for the law dealing with such matters and does not take the law into his own hands, Barty Crouch would have faced trial and either sent to Azkaban or given the kiss of death.
Dumbledore does not follow the law unless he agrees that it is the right couse of action: he helped Sirius escape the dementors; he evaded capture from the Ministry of Magic; he created an illegal portkey. However, as I have said I do not think that Crouch could compromise Snape's position with Voldemort so I don't see any reason why Dumbledore wouldn't let Crouch go to Azkaban.

I think that Dumbledore had to bring Snape along. Snape must be telling Voldemort that Dumbledore trusts him enough for him to be useful as a spy. If Dumbledore trusts Snape, why wouldn't he bring him along to capture dark wizards? If Snape wasn't there, then Voldemort might wonder whether Dumbledore trusts Snape enough for him to be a useful spy: if Snape isn't close to Dumbledore, why not kill the traitor?

But what would Voldemort expect, really? Would Voldemort expect Snape to "blow his cover" in an attempt to kill Harry? The argument would be, wouldn't he expect Snape to actively have it on his agenda? But what about in a moment of opportunity? To be honest, I see more questions here than answers.

Snape is trusted by Voldemort up until the end of OoTP, proved by virtue of his surviving that long. I also have trouble seeing Voldemort really wanting anyone else to kill Harry when he has been unable to. Wouldn't that prove to the DE that Harry's killer is more powerful than he, himself? (I often wonder what reception Jr. would have gotten, had he succeeded in killing Harry)

Anyway, I brought up more questions than answers. Boy, I'm a lot of help. :-p

I think it's key that, up to this point in the books, Voldemort has no idea that Snape is a traitor whatsoever. No double agent stuff, either. Voldemort must believe that Snape is a wholly loyal DE--with his own self interests at heart, but that's okay. Voldemort gives a very clear demonstration of his attitudes at the end of GoF--the one who left will be killed (again, nominee: Bagman)...all the guy did was leave; he didn't even betray Voldemort! There doesn't seem to be much room for tolerance, then, of anyone whose loyalties are questionable...either an out-and-out traitor, or a double agent who might be a bit outside of Voldemort's control. Because the mental case is, among other things, a control freak. However, Malfoy is in fine shape: criticized for his self serving ways, but accepted for his attitude because it is based in loyalty. In Voldemort-World, looking for your own edge is okay, as long as it doesn't interfere with Voldemort's plans for you.

And, speaking of control freak--I agree, clkginny: I don't think Voldemort would actually be very happy with anyone who killed Harry for him. That sounds like a very nice present--but I agree that he would immediately see the perpetrator as a rival in powers. I suspect the 'thank you' would come in the form of an AK.

personally i think LV would be happier with crouch jr. dead so that he couldn't give away too much information... Snape, interestingly enough being the one with Fudge when the dementor finished him off.

Actually, it was McGonagall who was guarding Crouch Jr.


"What has happened?" said Dumbledore sharply, looking from Fudge to Professor McGonagall. "Why are you disturbing these people? Minerva, I'm surprised at you -- I asked you to stand guard over Barty Crouch--"
"There is no need to stand guard over him anymore, Dumbledore!" she shrieked. "The Minister has seen to that!"

I think it's key that, up to this point in the books, Voldemort has no idea that Snape is a traitor whatsoever. No double agent stuff, either. Voldemort must believe that Snape is a wholly loyal DE--with his own self interests at heart, but that's okay. Voldemort gives a very clear demonstration of his attitudes at the end of GoF--the one who left will be killed (again, nominee: Bagman)...all the guy did was leave; he didn't even betray Voldemort! There doesn't seem to be much room for tolerance, then, of anyone whose loyalties are questionable...either an out-and-out traitor, or a double agent who might be a bit outside of Voldemort's control. Because the mental case is, among other things, a control freak. However, Malfoy is in fine shape: criticized for his self serving ways, but accepted for his attitude because it is based in loyalty. In Voldemort-World, looking for your own edge is okay, as long as it doesn't interfere with Voldemort's plans for you.
I don't think that Voldemort believes that Snape is loyal to him. I think he only tolerates Snape because he is useful: while Snape can give him information, he is allowed to live. I don't think that Snape has fooled Voldemort. Hopefully, we'll find out in HBP :drool:
And, speaking of control freak--I agree, clkginny: I don't think Voldemort would actually be very happy with anyone who killed Harry for him. That sounds like a very nice present--but I agree that he would immediately see the perpetrator as a rival in powers. I suspect the 'thank you' would come in the form of an AK.
I agree: Voldemort would have to prove that he was still the biggest bully in the playground. Mind you, Crouch Jr would probably die willingly if it meant making Voldy happy.

I think it's key that, up to this point in the books, Voldemort has no idea that Snape is a traitor whatsoever. No double agent stuff, either. Voldemort must believe that Snape is a wholly loyal DE--with his own self interests at heart, but that's okay.I'm not sure I agree on this one. VM saw just how useful it was to have a 'spy' inside the Order (Peter), the first time around. Although that one didn't work out so well for him, that really wasn't Peter's fault! :evil: I find it very conceivable that VM would like nothing better than to penetrate DD's defenses by having a spy inside - but it would be necessary to 'trust' the spy to some extent, or at least be able to 'control' him. If VM was doubtful about Snape's true loyalty, he might keep him around for the info - but keep him in the dark about his true goals - and plan on getting 'rid' of Snape once his usefullness is at an end. We just don't know how much info Snape is getting from VM, so we don't know whether or not VM actually 'trusts' Snape.

Great material on the runes and borage, SIP. :tu: Nice sunflowers, too. :p Though I suspect Snape would prefer to be without bodyguards if that's the best he could find.

The rune confusion works on so many levels I've no idea how many of them were actually intended, never mind which ones. Just a few random ones: If the yew aspect of Eihwas is meant, the association is to Voldemort and death. Contrast that with this meaning of Ehwaz "Ehwaz facilitates "soul travel" or the shaman's journey. As such it can be used to obtained hidden knowledge or knowledge from a distance", and you've got Harry's mistaken interpretation of his vision at the end of OotP. There are also the thestrals themselves connecting death with Ehwaz in the sense of "horse" (properly not important enough, but still). Then there's this bit about Eihwaz (from the link SIP provided):

Currently, the Yew tree is a primary source for taxol, a cancer treatment synthesized from the active properties of the Yew and a perfect example of the power of Eihwaz to synthesize salvation from poison.

Again, the connection between healing and poison, or life and death. :huh:

Originally Posted by subtle science
And I just like the rather cryptic comment that borage 'cheers the hard student'--?!

You're hoping that Harry will eventually begin to study? :lol: The comment is a bit cryptic, but it's actually one of the reasons I've been trying to track down some borage for myself recently. It takes the edge of that "scrambled brain" feeling you sometimes get from trying to process too much information in a short period of time. Ties in well with the ideas of healing and mental/emotional control. Odd choice of words, though...NEWT Potions are going to be very interesting indeed, it seems.

I also doubt that Voldemort would be all that pleased with anyone who got rid of Harry for him. If he's ever going to ask Snape to do something about Harry, it would be to bring him, not kill him.

Alisel--How about the Pensieve as a form of the shaman's journey and hidden knowledge? As soon as I read what you had written, that hit me like a ton of bricks. Especially because the Pensieve is on the US HBP cover (I'll just make it official and say that's what I believe--not that it's a birdbath or an oddly shaped cauldron........). The UK children's book clearly depicts a rather desperate moment for Harry and Dumbledore--if not death, then very much the danger of imminent death.

There's certainly a good deal of hidden knowledge still in the series: the burning issues (ooohh--that just turned into a book cover pun!) of how and why Snape turned and the events the night the Potters died--people fuss about the supposed length of time it allegedly took Snape to alert the Order at the end of OotP--me, my big concern is the timeline of the Potters' deaths and the arrival at Privet Drive. Hmm, hmmm, hmmmmmm.

Regarding the idea of Snape as Healer/Poisoner = Life/Death (or rebirth) combined with the idea that we shouldn't think Snape as too 'nice':

All the way back in bk1, Snape's 1st yr potion's speech that included 'putting a stopper in death' leads me to think that sometime we're going to find that part of Snape's past includes the research that enabled VM to 'not die' after the backfired AK. I think that's what all the 'vampire' hints have been about - as the only vampiric action we've seen (drinking blood) has been performed by VM (unicorn blood) - so the vampire characteristics attributed to Snape is actually a hint connecting Snape to immortality (most probably helping VM in his immortality research)

OK - here's a new idea - more of a joke really - what if half-'blood' prince refers to vampires somehow? Just a thought connecting vampires and blood. 'Snicker'

I REALLY like the idea of a 'shamanic' voyage in bk6 - there have been plently of hints about 'underworld'/'otherworld' journeys - from Filch 'ferrying' students across the twins' swamp (also shades of 1st yrs journey across lake), 'Fluffy' the cerebus, and (don't remember where exactly - sorry, will try to find it later) Harry connected to 'pomegranete'.

Add in one of Harry's dreams (I think back in bk3 - I'll need to look it up - been discussed on 'New Clues' on Mugglenet) where Harry follows a shining(white?) 'hoofed?' animal thru the forbidden forest, CARRYING his broom - very symbolic of one of King Arthur's trips to the otherworld - by following a white animal (I think I remember it as a 'stag' - prongs?) - later realizing that he had left his horse behind.

In celtic folklore, white animals are guides to the otherworld. I think this is repeated in bk5 when Grawp attacks the 'white' centaur 'freeing' the kids from the centaurs so that they can then get to the thestrals for the journey to DoM.

Previously, I've been thinking that Luna insisting she can hear the voices beyond the veil (same as Harry) and the Luna/Moon connections, that I've thought Luna would be going with Harry on the trip - however, now with some of the discussions here, perhaps Snape has something to do with the journey (or at least a 'potion'), Actually, I see symbolic 'trips to the underworld' in every book so far. Bk1 - get past Fluffy/Cerebus DOWN the trap door. Bk2 - Chamber of Secrets. Bk3 - tunnel under Whomping Willow to the 'Shack' and the past (Marauders & Snape's memories of the werewolf prank) Bk4 - VMs rebirth in a graveyard. Bk5 - the veil.

Alisel--How about the Pensieve as a form of the shaman's journey and hidden knowledge? As soon as I read what you had written, that hit me like a ton of bricks. Especially because the Pensieve is on the US HBP cover (I'll just make it official and say that's what I believe--not that it's a birdbath or an oddly shaped cauldron........). The UK children's book clearly depicts a rather desperate moment for Harry and Dumbledore--if not death, then very much the danger of imminent death.

Hmm. I can't say I've been hit by the same bricks, but it's worth thinking about, certainly. The idea of the shaman's journey fits the effect the Pensieve dive had on Harry in OotP. I'm not sure about the implications for HBP, but I agree that we're not done with the Pensieve yet (and not just because a birdbath doesn't have the same potential). A lot of plot points still involve past events, and if we're going to lose Dumbledore at some point, a reliable source of knowledge about the past becomes even more significant.

I was poking about on the internet, looking up holly (Harry's wand) and yew. Holly yielded nothing new to me thus far--it protects against lightning and is symbolic of Jesus. However... yew.....

http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/yew.htm

was rather interesting.

I knew it was a symbol of immortality, but it is also associated with rebirth, regeneration, transformation, and "access to the Otherworld and your ancestors." It is a "bringer of dreams and otherworld journeys."

I'll toss this out and let the terriers go: yew is "linked to the runes yr and eolh."

Hmmm.

Originally posted by billywiggy: If VM was doubtful about Snape's true loyalty, he might keep him around for the info - but keep him in the dark about his true goals - and plan on getting 'rid' of Snape once his usefullness is at an end. We just don't know how much info Snape is getting from VM, so we don't know whether or not VM actually 'trusts' Snape.

I kind of see your point here; if LV doesn't trust Snape, that might not automatically mean the AK curse. He could still use Snape to glean as much info as possible, then AK the man. And since we don't really know How Snape is doing his whole double/spy thing, it puts him in a difficult situation. He and DD must discuss What info to give to LV before hand and some of it must be true of LV would figure it out pretty quick. So, the info being passed to LV must be true enough for LV to believe that Snape is doing his job, but must still be "vague" enough to not let LV learn too much. That is a very fine line to be treading and Snape has to watch his step each and everytime he goes to see the DL. I wonder, if someone is a Legilemens, like LV, and tries to see into someone's mind who is using Occ, would he sense that? Or could you be so good at Occ that LV wouldn't sense it? I wonder?

Holly is an evergreen, though, and while it isn't as long-lived as a Yew tree, it symbolizes life itself. Yew in Great Britain is often planted around graveyards, while Holly is more a tree found wild in the woods - I don't know why that appeals to me, but it does. It seems that runes are often made from Holly Wood.

JKR actually wrote about Holly and Yew on her website, which some of you already know. It really isn't about runes, but about the Druidic Ogham Tree "Astrology," which is actually just as interesting as runes:

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=18


WANDS
I gave Harry a wand made of holly wood back in 1990, when I first drafted chapter six of ‘Philosopher’s Stone’. It was not an arbitrary decision: holly has certain connotations that were perfect for Harry, particularly when contrasted with the traditional associations of yew, from which Voldemort’s wand is made. European tradition has it that the holly tree (the name comes from ‘holy’) repels evil, while yew, which can achieve astonishing longevity (there are British yew trees over two thousand years old), can symbolise both death and resurrection; the sap is also poisonous.

Some time after I had given Harry his holly-and-phoenix wand I came across a description of how the Celts had assigned trees to different parts of the year and discovered that, entirely by coincidence, I had assigned Harry the ‘correct’ wood for his day of birth. I therefore decided to give Ron and Hermione Celtic wand woods, too. Ron, who was born in the February 18 - March 17 period, was given an ash wand (I think I had originally marked him down for beech), and Hermione, who was born between September 2 and September 29, received a vine wood wand (I can’t remember what I originally stipulated for Hermione; possibly I had not specified a wood for her at that stage).

I have only used the Celtic assignations for Ron and Hermione. Hagrid, for instance, has an oak wand though by this Celtic system he should have a wand made of elder; in Britain, the oak is ‘King of the Forest’ and symbolises strength, protection and fecundity; what other wood could ‘choose’ Hagrid? In any case, I liked having a hidden connection between Harry, Ron and Hermione’s wands that only I knew about (until now, anyway).

For those who are interested in the trees assigned to the different parts of the Celtic year, below is the chart that I used. I apologise to any Celtic tree experts out there for any inaccuracies I may have reproduced (I have found slight variations between sources since I first came across this information.)

December 24 - January 20 = Birch (Beth)
January 21 - February 17 = Rowan (Luis)
February 18 - March 17 = Ash (Nion)
March 18 - April 14 = Alder (Fearn)
April 15 - May 12 = Willow (Saille)
May 13 - June 9 = Hawthorn (Huath)
June 10 - July 7 = Oak (Duir)
July 8 - August 4 = Holly (Tinne)
August 5 - September 1 = Hazel (Coll)
September 2 - September 29 = Vine (Muin)
September 30 - October 27 = Ivy (Gort)
October 28 - November 24 = Reed (Ngetal)
November 25 - December 23 = Elder (Ruis)

I found this information about Holly and Yew:

http://www.earth-dancing.com/trees.htm


The Druidic alphabet name the holly is the letter “T,” (Tinne). The medieval Holly King or Holly Knight, was also known as the Green Man or the Wild Man, who appeared at midwinter festivals in the guise of an anciet sacrificial God.

According to the Tuetonic tribes, holly belonged to the underground Goddess, Holle (Hel), whose name was also rendered Halja, Hilde, Hulda, Holde, Helle, Hol, and Hella. The holly’s red berries were seen as drops of her life-giving blood, in which lay the secret of the tree’s immortiality or year-round greenness.


Yew is the traditional cemetery tree because the priests of the old Celtic religion regarded it as a symbol of immortality and planted it in their sacred groves, where Christian cemeteries were later situated. In this way, the death-and-ressurection connotations of the yew were perpetuated. Druids used wands of the yew for divination to fortell the future.

The “Yew Valley” was the abode of Odin as a death God, in his winter aspect as Ullr. The runic symbol of Eoh meant yew, as did the letter “I,” (Idho) in the Druidic Alphabet. Yew also symbolized hunting as the wood made excellent bows.

In hot weather the Yew tree would give off an alkaloid taxine, which in some people may have a hallucinatory effect. The berries and needles of the yew tree are very poisoness. The pacific Yew tree which contains a special Taxonol has been used successfully in treating some forms of cancer.

I love it that Yew represent hunting, while Holly represents life. The hunter and the hunted: that really does describe Voldemort and Harry.

Now if we could figure out which run represents Snape, we would be on topic, LOL.

On the Ogham calendar JKR gave, he is "Birch." Of course, JKR says that she hasn't given everyone the wand of their birth, but there is a rune associated with Birch ~ Berkano:
http://www.futhark.com/third.html

Letter value: b
Keywords / Magical:
Earth mother, birth, birth-life-death cycle, liberation, life changes, shelter
Gods, Goddesses and Deities:
Frigg, Nerthus, Hel
Lore:
This rune contains the complex mystery of the great mother (Nerthus the earth mother). It rules over the four pivotal human "rites of passage", birth, adolescence, marriage and death. It is the container of all becoming/being. It is a collector and conserver of energy and a sign of enclosure and shelter.
Positive Meaning:
New beginnings based on old patterns are in the future. Look for the importance of new things. It conceals and protects.
Negative Meaning:
Blurring of consciousness, deceit, sterility, and stagnation. Family problems.

Shelter, Protection, Concealment - very interesting! :huh:

The only problem is that Snape isn't associated with the letter "B" at all, which is what the rune Berkuna looks like. :rolleyes:

OMG - Did you know there was a Norse Goddess named "Snotra"? :rotfl: She is actually the goddess of wisdom! So she would parallel Minerva in Roman mythology, lol.

http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/norse-mythology.php?deity=SNOTRA

SNOTRA: One of FRIGG's attendents. SNOTRA was a Goddess of Virtue and Self-Discipline. And possibly of producing a handkerchief when a nose needed wiping.
Her name means 'wise' and it's believed that she bestows self-control and prudence. So turn to SNOTRA if you need to stifle a sneeze.

Snotra does seem to parallel Minerva, doesn't she? Self-control and prudence; that sounds like Minerva to me.
We need to know more about Snape and his wand...well, we need to know more about Snape period! 30 days and counting. Hoping we will start getting the answers JKR has promised.
Just wishin', and hopin', and dreamin', and prayin'....
Okay, it is entire too late for me to be up and trying to post coherent thoughts. LOL

It is the container of all becoming/being. It is a collector and conserver of energy and a sign of enclosure and shelter.
I thought this was interesting from a few points of view (bear with me, I'm not good at this). First, conserver of energy reminds me of Snape's tendency to use wandless magic, as well as his opening speech of "little foolish wand-waving". Second, enclosure seems to refer to his introverted personality. Lastly, shelter could indicate his sheltering at Hogwarts, or his sheltering of the students within Hogwarts.

New beginnings based on old patterns are in the future. Look for the importance of new things. It conceals and protects.
New beginnings seems self apparent. This would harken back to his change from a DE to an Order member. Once again, concealment would be a good attribute for a spy. I think I covered protection adequately above (shelter).

Blurring of consciousness, deceit, sterility, and stagnation. Family problems.
Blurring of consciousness is interesting, but I can't think of anything for it. Deceit, once again, he is a spy. Sterility, not sure about that either. Stagnation, this could relate back to the fact he has been in stasis for several years awaiting the return of Voldemort. Family problems, there is that memory that Harry glimpsed with the hook-nosed man and cowering woman.

Definitely seems to relate. Once again, excellent information SIP.

OMG - Did you know there was a Norse Goddess named "Snotra"?
Never heard of her, but :rotfl: If James had known this, he would have told Snape to turn to Snotra to wipe his abnormally large nose!

I feel that Snotra is too minor to parallel Minerva, though. Frigg herself would perhaps be a better parallel, at least to our HP Minerva, because of her position as queen and Odin's wife, which parallels McGOnagall's positions as deputy headmistress and right hand woman. Although, Frigg is the godess of motherhood and good housekeeping, which is perhaps not such a good parallel to McGonagall.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
According to the Prose Edda Snotra is one goddess of the Ásynjur.

Her name is clearly derived from the adjective snotr meaning "wise" or "graceful". More than that the Prose Edda does not tell us.

Þrettánda Snotra, hon er vitr ok látprúð. Af hennar heiti er kallat snotr kona eða karlmaðr sá er vitr maðr er. [1] (http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/gg/gg4par33.html)
"The thirteenth [of the Ásynjur] is Snotra. She is wise and graceful. From her name a wise woman or man is called snotr."
She is mentioned neither in the Poetic Edda nor skaldic poetry nor, indeed, in any other extant Norse or West-Germanic source.

Due to this lack of evidence Rudolf Simek suggests, in his Dictionary of Northern Mythology, that Snotra was an invention of Snorri Sturluson. While this is certainly possible it is unclear why Snorri would invent a goddess out of whole cloth, especially since Snotra is the 13th entry on his list. One would think he would have been happy with 12 Ásynjur since he states that there are 12 Æsir.

A possible explanation is that Snotra was originally an alternative name for another goddess, perhaps Frigg, and taken by Snorri to be a separate goddess. Having nothing else to go by Snorri then informs his readers that Snotra is "wise and graceful", based simply on her name.

It is also conceivable that Snorri had access to an authentic, if sparse, oral tradition which has not come down to us in any other source.



So Snape's celtic wand wood is birch - interesting. Birch is such a cute and unfrightening tree! :lol: Yes, there is a rune called birch (bjarkan). It's the b rune, which looks like a roman B - except sometimes spikier, like Snape's handwriting :lol:
All the runes had names startig with the letter they signify, as a help to remember them. S is the sun, i is ice, and so forth. There was a poem which included all the names. I suppose people learned this poem in order to learn the alphabet. The idea that their names tell you what magical powers the runes have, is a modern idea. Some people believed that runes could be used for magic in the middle ages too, but any writing would do, not only runes. It's writing that is magical, not runic writing in particular. They wrote spells and prayers in runes. They wouldn't write a t rune because it stands for "thurs" (a troll) and whatever power modern day rune cranks have assigned to it, but perhaps because it is that start of the name Thor, hoping for protection from this god. I have seen "Maria" (Mary) written in runes on the wall of the cathedral here - that's funny when you know that many people nowadays see runes as something occult! :lol:

Definitely seems to relate. Once again, excellent information SIP.
:blush: Thank you! I always enjoy Subtle's "terrier challenges," LOL! :p I love to do research.
I thought this was interesting from a few points of view (bear with me, I'm not good at this). First, conserver of energy reminds me of Snape's tendency to use wandless magic, as well as his opening speech of "little foolish wand-waving". Second, enclosure seems to refer to his introverted personality. Lastly, shelter could indicate his sheltering at Hogwarts, or his sheltering of the students within Hogwarts.
:tu: Very good points! I like this!
Never heard of her, but If James had known this, he would have told Snape to turn to Snotra to wipe his abnormally large nose!
LOL - All these nose references just make that too funny for words!

After I posted, I realized that if you say "Snotra" fast, it sounds like "Sinatra."
Member of the "Rat Pack" - omg! LOL. :rotfl:
I feel that Snotra is too minor to parallel Minerva, though. Frigg herself would perhaps be a better parallel, at least to our HP Minerva, because of her position as queen and Odin's wife, which parallels McGOnagall's positions as deputy headmistress and right hand woman. Although, Frigg is the godess of motherhood and good housekeeping, which is perhaps not such a good parallel to McGonagall.
Excellent point! I only posted about Snotra because I had never heard of her. Of course, you know alot more about Norse mythology than I do. I remember reading some books as a child about the Norse gods, but Loki is the only one I remember. And of course, now I know "Nott" because she is the goddess of the Night with her horse "Frostymane." I really like that.
So Snape's celtic wand wood is birch - interesting. Birch is such a cute and unfrightening tree! Yes, there is a rune called birch (bjarkan). It's the b rune, which looks like a roman B - except sometimes spikier, like Snape's handwriting
I was looking at the runes trying to find the "Spikey D," like the one Snape wrote on Harry's paper. Do you see any runes that remind you of that?
It's writing that is magical, not runic writing in particular. They wrote spells and prayers in runes. They wouldn't write a t rune because it stands for "thurs" (a troll) and whatever power modern day rune cranks have assigned to it, but perhaps because it is that start of the name Thor, hoping for protection from this god. I have seen "Maria" (Mary) written in runes on the wall of the cathedral here - that's funny when you know that many people nowadays see runes as something occult!
That's sad. None of this is really occult, just "cultural" or "folklore." I find it amazing that people in the U.S. who love to say they have Native American blood in their families, would be appalled to say their families ever had "Pagan" beliefs.

This is off-topic, but I met a Cherokee man once at a craft show, and he was selling bags of Sage to burn in religious ceremonies. That reminds me of Firenze, who burned sage during his class.

A spiky D - Actually, the funny thing is, that in the younger runic alphabet (ca 9th century), there is no D rune! :lol: Instead, they use T for both T and D. It looks approximately like this: 1. You just have to guess if it means D or T. The same goes for K ang G, V and U, I and E, B and P, etc. If you want to write "dverg", which means dwarf, you have to write "tuirk"! :rotfl: There is, however, a "th" rune, which might be derived from the roman D. You can see a picture of it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Runes_futhark_old.png

Ops, the link doesn't seem to work. I'll give it as an URL instead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Runes_futhark_old.png

The "th" is the third rune.

This is actually a picture of the older runic alphabet (ca AD 0 - 800), but the shape of the "Th" stayed the same throughout history.

The older runic alphabet, however, has a D rune. It looks kind of like Umbridge's bow. It's the second last rune in the picture. It does look like spiky D, looking at itself in a mirror! My friend has a theory that it is derived from the Roman D, but since the "th" shape, which is very similar, was already taken for a phonetically very similar sound, they made the D double to avoid confusion.

Sorry for riding the "runes are not occult" hobby horse. It just drives me nuts that people associate runes with divination, black clothes, burning of incense, nose piercings, Black Metal music, etc, while it's really just another alphabet. :lol:

Originally Posted by subtle science
I'll toss this out and let the terriers go: yew is "linked to the runes yr and eolh."

Another terrier challenge! Okay, I found something (please forgive me for not quoting it directly, the site was in Danish). As it turns out, eolh is another name for the futhark rune elhaz, and yr is elhaz upside down, which fits very well with them being two aspects of the same general idea. Connotations for elhaz, according to one of SIP's earlier links:

Elhaz is a reference to active defense or defensive actions as differentiated from passive defenses like structural or natural barriers. Elhaz evokes participation in defensive behavior.

Elhaz is a reference to active defense or defensive actions as differentiated from passive defenses like structural or natural barriers. Elhaz evokes participation in defensive behavior.

Elhaz can be used to strengthen magical power and luck, as well as the personal physical stamina of the life force.

Used on its own it can be a rune of protection and can be used against all hostile forces, however, because this rune is associated with active defense more than the passive kind of defense reflected in Thorn, it is not usually employed on it's own, but rather, in conjunction with other runes or talismans.

Magically this rune can be used to enhance all defensive actions or to undercut the defenses of an enemy. In a similar way it can be used to raise alertness to danger, or lull an enemy into a false sense of security.

Elhaz can be used to repel present danger and hostile forces and can also increase alertness to and awareness of danger not yet present.

This rune can also be used to channel energies appropriately, sharpen your instincts, keep hold of success or maintain a position won or earned.

In divination it can represent any of the following forces.

ELHAZ UPRIGHT:Protection, a shield, shelter, security, defense, warding, guardian, awakening, repellant, valor, bravery

ELHAZ MERKSTAVE: Hidden danger, failure, misuse, warning, weakening, vulnerability, unawareness, surprise attack, false security, cowardice


I also found some information on birch which seems to link it very closely to holly. They both have a protective aspect, strangely enough particularly against lightning (scars, perhaps?). More interesting still: Cradles were once made from birch wood to protect the babies, and holly water was sprinkled on the newborn, also for protection. Holly was also supposed to offer protection against evil sorcerers :huh: . So we've got similarities of birch and holly, protection of small children in particular, and against some very interesting threats to those children.

End of terrier report. Any new challenges?

I was looking at the runes trying to find the "Spikey D," like the one Snape wrote on Harry's paper. Do you see any runes that remind you of that?
A spiky D - Actually, the funny thing is, that in the younger runic alphabet (ca 9th century), there is no D rune! Instead, they use T for both T and D. ...{cut}...There is, however, a "th" rune, which might be derived from the roman D....
This is a very interesting subject, which has actually been discussed quite a bit on Mugglenet's New Clues Board - under Chptr 15 -Snape's Handwriting (which hasn't been posted to for awhile). I hope it's okay to mention another discussion board, anyway, among many other theories was connecting the 'spikey D' to the Thurisaz (Thorn/th) rune. I had a bit to say there on the subject that relates the Thorn Rune to Snape - so I'll just quote it here. PLEASE - IF THIS IS A NO-NO TO QUOTE FROM ANOTHER BOARD, then whomever is leading this discussion please just delete this and accept my apologies, however I haven't seen a rule against this. So.....

from Mugglenet's New Clues Forum Ch15, Snape's Handwriting, quoting myself and quoting Youth can not know within my post

About the 'Thorn' Rune - Youth can not know gave us some good info back in June of this thread. {Ch15 Snape's Handwriting}
Quote:
Thurisaz is a very ancient name for Thor, so it's not surprising that it is a most powerful rune. Thurisaz can be used and interpreted as a protection rune. Plants grow thorns to protect themselves, so the logic is clear. Drawing a ring of Thurisaz runes around something is an excellent protection spell.

However, Thurisaz has a dark side. After all, thorns protect by pricking and drawing blood. One should step carefully with this rune and treat it respectfully. It can backfire just as easily as it can work for you.

If this doesn't describe Snape's protection Harry - I don't know what would. Protective, yet painful. Also, indicates the way Snape 'protects' himself. And to continue
Quote:
In a reading, Thurisaz upright stands as a warning to the querent, especially if the querent is acting as though his run of good luck is neverending. Thurisaz often suggests that the querent is being wrongheaded about the issue at hand, and advises the querent to maintain status quo until the period indicated by the runecast is over.
Harry is certainly acting as if his luck is never-ending (or at least that's how Snape sees it).
Quote:
Thorn takes its name from the god Thor. There is some debate over the meaning of this rune, some see it as powerfully negative; revealing the darker side of our inner nature and acting as a warning. Others see it as very positive offering powerful protection and assuring us that we do not stand alone.
Yes - the 2 sides of Snape - dark, but protective of Harry
Quote:
Interpretation: Upright.
You are supported and protected. Fate stands with you. Seek counsel before making important decisions, this is a time to ask for help - it will be there for you and may provide you with more than you expect.

The darker side of this rune may also act as a warning that the thing we need protection from is actually ourselves.
If only Harry and the others had gone to Snape directly 'for counsel' and also the idea of Harry needing 'protection from himself' from what his mind told him was true but was really a ruse by VM

Amazing info on the similarities between Snape and the significance of the Thurisaz rune, hwyla. :tu: "Prickly" and unpleasant protection, help given when asked for (more than expected, at that), Snape's view of Harry, the advice to "treat it respectfully". :lol: Wonderful!

I'm enjoying hearing about all the folklore regarding the rune names, but I would like to point out something:
- "Th" is called Thorn or Thurs. Thorn is the Anglosaxon name for the rune, while Thurs is the Norse name.
- Thorn means thorn, like on a rose bush. It does not mean Thor. It probably got its name because if you make the > very tiny, it looks like a branch with a thorn. Like this |>
- A thurs is a troll/giant type of creature. (For example: The ice giants that live on the fringe of the Earth in Norse mythology are called Hrimthursar - frost giants.) (Edit: If anyone wonders about where the -az went, it's only an inflectional ending for nominative. The z is a kind of funny sound that is half way between r and z. It's signified by the "elk" rune, which is the upside down Yr rune referred to above. It looks like an upside down y with an extra prong. Note to self: enough on the -az ending now...)


Alisel ~ wow, that's interesing about the birch and the holly! :clap: It's amazing how it all fits in!

Okay--if JKR doesn't designate birch for Snape's wand....Actually, that was a question I considered throwing into the Contest--but figured it would likely be lost in the (at that time alone) 80+ pages of questions!)

Amazing amounts of information!


"Blurring of consciousness"--Legilimency and Occlumency? Snape seems to lean toward the ability to distort and deflect conscience thought. I might even stretch far enough to say that he 'blurs' people's perception of him: Harry has only briefly considered, once, that Snape has worked to save him; the rest of his attitude completely ignores the protective aspect of Snape. Neville, of course, has no clue: he's so out of touch with Snape's character that he turns him into the embodiment of fear.

"Sterility"--I thought immediately of JKR's comment about who would want Snape in love with her. She has said that Snape has no daughter. And Snape certainly seems to live a rather monastic life at Hogwarts--an impression underscored by the set and costuming in the first film: the filmmakers certainly created a rather religious image, with Rickman in his almost clerical outfit framed against the Gothic arches of the classroom.

"Stagnation"--Ahh---the old "get over it" reference. It fits with Snape's inability to overcome the past: he has stagnated because he cannot escape his hatred of the Marauders; he is sunk in bitterness.

I also found some information on birch which seems to link it very closely to holly. They both have a protective aspect, strangely enough particularly against lightning (scars, perhaps?). More interesting still: Cradles were once made from birch wood to protect the babies, and holly water was sprinkled on the newborn, also for protection. Holly was also supposed to offer protection against evil sorcerers . So we've got similarities of birch and holly, protection of small children in particular, and against some very interesting threats to those children.That is very interesting as it is Snape's job to protect the students around the school from what I have seen. What you say could be true and that Snape may also be immune to the AV curse but that is speculation and there would be very little to go on other than both Holly and Birch have the same protective qualities. He did get away with bullying Quirrell in PS/SS, as Snape would be more dangerous and not someone a weak Voldemort would like to tackle, especially if the he was immune to the AV curse.

Might also explain why Lily had an effect on Snape because they use willow to bind birch.

I'm enjoying hearing about all the folklore regarding the rune names, but I would like to point out something:
- "Th" is called Thorn or Thurs. Thorn is the Anglosaxon name for the rune, while Thurs is the Norse name.
- Thorn means thorn, like on a rose bush. It does not mean Thor. It probably got its name because if you make the > very tiny, it looks like a branch with a thorn. Like this |>
- A thurs is a troll/giant type of creature. (For example: The ice giants that live on the fringe of the Earth in Norse mythology are called Hrimthursar - frost giants.) (Edit: If anyone wonders about where the -az went, it's only an inflectional ending for nominative. The z is a kind of funny sound that is half way between r and z. It's signified by the "elk" rune, which is the upside down Yr rune referred to above. It looks like an upside down y with an extra prong. Note to self: enough on the -az ending now...)I'm terribly sorry if I've misled anyone about Thurisaz being an old name for Thor. I'm afraid I was quoting someone else (not on this thread), however I did check it out first by putting 'Thurisaz' thru Google and it appears many sites about runes agree with this - however - we all know how little trust we should put into websites, especially websites that concern themselves with 'magic' and 'pagan' or 'wiccan' info, which unfortunately seems to be most sites that discuss runes. I apologize for not double-checking elsewhere - good old BOOKS (especially ones that were solely concerned with mythology. I'll certainly accept Norbertha's word as she herself is from Norway.

However, the rest of the info about the rune Thurisaz does appear to be consistent with other rune info (Thorns, protective, yet prickly, etc.) and certainly seems to me to be especially significant to Snape and his protecting Harry

I'm terribly sorry if I've misled anyone about Thurisaz being an old name for Thor. I'm afraid I was quoting someone else (not on this thread), however I did check it out first by putting 'Thurisaz' thru Google and it appears many sites about runes agree with this - however - we all know how little trust we should put into websites, especially websites that concern themselves with 'magic' and 'pagan' or 'wiccan' info, which unfortunately seems to be most sites that discuss runes. I apologize for not double-checking elsewhere - good old BOOKS (especially ones that were solely concerned with mythology. I'll certainly accept Norbertha's word as she herself is from Norway.

No problem, Hwyla. :) I think it's just a difference between (a) the scientific view of runes anno 0 - 1500 and (b) modern folklore on runes, which means wicca and all that. As you can probably tell, I'm in camp (a), having taken a module in runology at university. (And I have never been anywhere near wicca). But as folklore, I quite enjoy camp (b) too. Especially when we know JKR uses a lot of folklore in her books.

Thanks Norbertha - personally I'd rather be corrected than continue to be wrong. Did the rest of my post mesh with your info about the Thurisaz rune? (the prickly protection and the protection from your own misconceptions)

About Snape's wand - has there been a description of it in the books? I realize the discussion about it being birch is based on the celtic calendar (as JKR did with the kids) - I suppose it's time to break out the books. I can't remember Snape using his wand anywhere other than bk2 dueling with Lockhart, bk3 in the shrieking shack, bk4 blowing up rose bushes during the yule ball and blasting Barty Jr with Minerva and Albus and in bk5 occulemency lessons. Time to go dig like a terrier.

Thanks Norbertha - personally I'd rather be corrected than continue to be wrong. :)
Did the rest of my post mesh with your info about the Thurisaz rune? (the prickly protection and the protection from your own misconceptions)

The scientific branch of runology doesn't deal with magic at all, so I don't know anything about Thursaz's protective abilities. :) Runes have names that mean things, just like one can say "a for apple" when trying to teach a child the alphabet, except the rune names were more or less fixed, but that doesn't give them magical properties.

However, since the HP books are about magic, after all, I will risk a short expedition into wicca territory. ;)

I'm fairly certain there's no description of Snape's wand anywhere.

Originally Posted by Tane
That is very interesting as it is Snape's job to protect the students around the school from what I have seen. What you say could be true and that Snape may also be immune to the AV curse but that is speculation and there would be very little to go on other than both Holly and Birch have the same protective qualities. He did get away with bullying Quirrell in PS/SS, as Snape would be more dangerous and not someone a weak Voldemort would like to tackle, especially if the he was immune to the AV curse.

I wouldn't say that Snape is immune, or even that Harry is, should anyone try the curse on him again. Going by what we have been told, that was all Lily's doing. Still, the connection is interesting, whatever it's supposed to mean.

Originally Posted by Tane
Might also explain why Lily had an effect on Snape because they use willow to bind birch.

They do? Sounds interesting, but who are "they" and why are they binding birch with anything? Can you tell me more? :)

Originally Posted by Norbertha
However, since the HP books are about magic, after all, I will risk a short expedition into wicca territory.

:lol: I think we have to make certain allowances in cases like this. If we can discuss how Pensieves work and which frame of mind a person needs to be in to cast Unforgivable curses, assigning meanings to runes shouldn't stretch the imagination much further.

And I knew I'd be called on the "not a fighter" comment--I mean it literally: Luna doesn't physically confront those who attack her, whereas Snape does. And I actually think verbal/emotional abuse is worse than physical--but SWM is both; the physical attack on him isn't really that bad--except for the depth of humiliation it causes. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Luna has experienced a SWM, just as there no indication that she could/would respond physically. Snape is the flip side: he gets physically assaulted and he retaliates physically. And the parental situation is a flip side as well (hmmm..what then does that say about Snape's mother..or, in a complete opposite flip...his father?).

I do wonder if we'll see something as dramatic as tears from Snape--after all, JKR gave us Dumbledore breaking, and that was pretty dramaatic at the end of OotP. I did read a fanfiction someplace (don't ask), wherein the author had an interesting take on this. I can't abide a suddenly weepy, Oprah/Dr. Phil confessional Snape (eeeww), but this writer made a believable case for how/why Snape might break. The way she did it was simply to have Snape lose it, without any warning or indication beforehand--a case of 'the last straw' of pressure on him. I just found it an interesting way of seeing a scenario...I myself would guess that the most likely moment would occur with Dumbledore's death (if Dumbledore doesn't die--that would be the plot twist that would truly shock me!).

Apropos of nothing, almost: You know, it could solve my inability-to-choose dilemma if I just gave everybody else free rein to change my avatar for me on, say, a weekly or biweekly basis....

Why Snape may NOT be a vamp

JKR just keeps dropping those vampire hints,
1 - Daylight: In most accounts, vamps can't go out into the sun (it can be lethal!), but Snape does.

2 - Food: Because they are "undead," vampires don't need regular food - only blood, but Snape eats food at the table during the feasts.

3 - Reflection: Vamps are famous for not having a reflection from a mirror, but Snape was reflected in the "Foe Glass."

4 - Sleepless: Vamps only repose (not a true sleep) during the day and are up all night, but Snape has been seen at night in a nightshirt.


HP Sleuths who are convinced Snape is a vamp, can answer all of these:

1 - Daylight: If Snape can do a complex potion that renders a werewolf safe, why couldn't he do a potion that would allow a vampire to be exposed to sunlight for short time (sunblock potion SPF 5000)? He does have very greasy hair....

2 - Food: Just because Snape appears to "eat" at the table, doesn't mean he actually eats human food. He may have a special "diet" sent up to his plate by the house-elves. Remember - Honeydukes carries blood-flavored treats!

3 - Reflection: The Foe Glass has very special magical properties, and considering that Harry saw Snape's "reflection" before Snape had even entered the room, indicates that the "foe" is not really being "reflected," but is a magical image. As some HP Super Sleuths, including Peridot have pointed out, Snape was acting a bit weirdly at the Foe Glass ...maybe Snape had never seen his reflection, and he marveled for the first time at seeing himself.

4 - Sleepless: Although we have seen Snape in a night shirt, we have also seen that he is always awake (and often wandering around) whenever Harry is getting into trouble at night. Maybe Snape has "night clothes" just to give himself a clean (non-greasy), comfortable change of clothes while he is up at night?

Clearly, the issues challenging the theory that Snape is a vampire, aren't strong enough to override all the other evidence that is so overwhelming.


However, a very dedicated HP Super Sleuth has found a quote that seems to prove Snape can't be a vamp!

Lydia O. sent us this from Goblet of Fire, Chapter 10, Percy's comments on the stamping out of vampires:

"...Guidelines for the Treatment of Non-Wizard Part-Humans---" (aka vampires)

Lydia comments: "So there you go. Vampire is defined by JKR as "non-wizard part-human," and while I agree with ANYBODY that Snape is definitely, on his kindest days, part-human (teeny tiny little micro-part), I don't think anybody could call him a non-wizard."

Therefore, if a vamp is a "non-wizard," then Snape can't be a vamp (can he?). We may have to re-think this vamp thing....

I do wonder if we'll see something as dramatic as tears from Snape

I think we already have, just that he was a boy at the time. Maybe later, as an adult it would be pretty telling. I keep getting a scary mental image of some Star-Warsish mid battle scene confessional. Which i hope wont be "it" :no:

bah, you guys beat me to it but when you mentioned the spiky D and runes i got out one of my books and made the Thurisaz connection too. i'll just put what it says:

Thurisaz is not only the vexing thorn which it's name implies but also the glyph of the Hammer of Thor... this rune has many associations with protection and with luck, especially if it is paired with Eihwaz or Eolh. Sometimes this may herald a stroke of unexpected good luck, usually from an equally unexpected source rather than from one you already know. you will be "in the right place at the right time" and reap the benefits.

on occasion Thurisaz may appear in the runecast to indicate that the run of good luck you have been experiancing is about to come to an end. take care not to collapse yourself too far into your own self-assuredness, for at this time you may receive a rude asakening.

Take stock of youur situation and evaluate where you really stand before recklessly plunging onward.

pretty much the same as has been listed before but the addition of Eihwaz being mentioned i thought was significant

the addition of Eihwaz being mentioned i thought was significantYES! Especially since the Eihwaz rune is the same as Harry's scar!

thestralgrin--That actually was a statement I made quite a while back: in context, we were discussing an adult Snape crying--in fact, based upon the idea that we had seen the child Snape crying.

AliAsad--Welcome!!!!! But, please do indicate when you're quoting--I had quite a blast of deja vu there for a minute. : ) !!!!!!

And--no, Snape's wand has never been described in the books. I know because a fanatical friend and I tried to find it one day and didn't. And that's why that would be the question I'd ask JKR (well, part--also its significance!).

Might also explain why Lily had an effect on Snape because they use willow to bind birch.They do? Sounds interesting, but who are "they" and why are they binding birch with anything? Can you tell me more? :)In the olden days they use to use birch as the bristles of a broom and the willow to bind the birch bristles to the brooms wooden handle as willow was and still is used to today like rope. So I just thought it would be convenient if Lily had a wand made from willow and Snape's wand was made from birch, especially after the way we saw Lily and Snape interact during that memory in OotP; Lily had a way of putting Snape in his place.

Did anyone put that wand question forward because it would be helpful in analyzing Snape's overall character, which might explain why his wand has never been revealed to us yet.

Hmmm. when it'll come to vote on the forums on which questions to be asked to Rowling, we will need to unite and be strong! I hope hope hope one Snape question makes it!

Therefore, if a vamp is a "non-wizard," then Snape can't be a vamp (can he?). We may have to re-think this vamp thing....
AliAsad, there is a thread where this question has been discussed: "Is Snape a Vampire?" You could find it doing a Search.

I'm one of the minority who believes that Snape could be an offspring of a vampire and witch. The possibility of such children do exist in some of the legends of vampire-like creatures. This possibility overcomes all of the major arguments or objections, in my opinion, because Snape would then essentially be like Hagrid, a mortal wizard, yet with some (though not all) of the abilities of his other half, the vampires. JKR would be free to employ what vampire qualities she would like Snape to have and jettison the others.

Re: the Runes and wand wood as possibly applied to Snape--I have nothing to add really. Just wanted to say, very interesting information, Everybody!
*Re-Lurking*

Norbertha: It is great to have a linguist here! You are like the J.R.R. Tolkien of the forum!

I slipped that picture of runes into my Photobucket account so I could post it here with Norbertha's comments:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/Runescomplete.jpg

The "th" is the third rune.

This is actually a picture of the older runic alphabet (ca AD 0 - 800), but the shape of the "Th" stayed the same throughout history.

The older runic alphabet, however, has a D rune. It looks kind of like Umbridge's bow. It's the second last rune in the picture. It does look like spiky D, looking at itself in a mirror! My friend has a theory that it is derived from the Roman D, but since the "th" shape, which is very similar, was already taken for a phonetically very similar sound, they made the D double to avoid confusion.

Thanks, Norbertha. I can see the "double D" very clearly! And it certainly is "spiky." There's got to be a clue in all of this. Harry gets one D after another in OotP, and sometimes what he thinks are zeroes. Hmmmm.

I also found some information on birch which seems to link it very closely to holly. They both have a protective aspect, strangely enough particularly against lightning (scars, perhaps?). More interesting still: Cradles were once made from birch wood to protect the babies, and holly water was sprinkled on the newborn, also for protection. Holly was also supposed to offer protection against evil sorcerers . So we've got similarities of birch and holly, protection of small children in particular, and against some very interesting threats to those children.

End of terrier report. Any new challenges?
Awesome, Alisel! I love the protective qualities you listed.
Okay--if JKR doesn't designate birch for Snape's wand....Actually, that was a question I considered throwing into the Contest--but figured it would likely be lost in the (at that time alone) 80+ pages of questions!)
Well, I missed the contest. :sad: I've been saving up questions, too, but then I logged on last night about an hour too late to get it in before the 2000th post. Ah, well. . . . I trust Emerson from Mugglenet and Melissa from Leaky Cauldron to ask much better questions than any other interviewer JKR has ever had. At least they will know what not to ask!
"Sterility"--I thought immediately of JKR's comment about who would want Snape in love with her. She has said that Snape has no daughter. And Snape certainly seems to live a rather monastic life at Hogwarts--an impression underscored by the set and costuming in the first film: the filmmakers certainly created a rather religious image, with Rickman in his almost clerical outfit framed against the Gothic arches of the classroom.
In GoF, in the scene in which Harry is awake with his egg on the stairs, Snape is wearing a "long gray nightshirt," which is sort of "Friar" like, almost like a Franciscan monk. Fascinating that it isn't green, as he never seems to wear his house colors, does he? The gray nightshirt reminds me of Hufflepuff, with the Fat Friar, but also Ravenclaw, with the Grey Lady.
About Snape's wand - has there been a description of it in the books? I realize the discussion about it being birch is based on the celtic calendar (as JKR did with the kids) - I suppose it's time to break out the books. I can't remember Snape using his wand anywhere other than bk2 dueling with Lockhart, bk3 in the shrieking shack, bk4 blowing up rose bushes during the yule ball and blasting Barty Jr with Minerva and Albus and in bk5 occulemency lessons. Time to go dig like a terrier.
I'm fairly certain there's no description of Snape's wand anywhere.
Snape uses his wand to take out his memories in OotP during Occlumency. I could have sworn there is a scene in which Snape stirs a potion with his wand. I can't find the quote, but I'm looking. My notes are in disarray, unfortunately.

But we don't know what his wand is made of, and JKR muddied the waters for us by saying that not everyone's wand corresponds to the Ogham list. Therefore, it could be birch or something else. Oh well . . .

In the olden days they use to use birch as the bristles of a broom and the willow to bind the birch bristles to the brooms wooden handle as willow was and still is used to today like rope. So I just thought it would be convenient if Lily had a wand made from willow and Snape's wand was made from birch, especially after the way we saw Lily and Snape interact during that memory in OotP; Lily had a way of putting Snape in his place.
:tu: Wow! That's an interesting idea!
I'm one of the minority who believes that Snape could be an offspring of a vampire and witch. The possibility of such children do exist in some of the legends of vampire-like creatures. This possibility overcomes all of the major arguments or objections, in my opinion, because Snape would then essentially be like Hagrid, a mortal wizard, yet with some (though not all) of the abilities of his other half, the vampires. JKR would be free to employ what vampire qualities she would like Snape to have and jettison the others.
Well, as you know, this is one of the very few things I disagree with you about, Black Adder. Don't hate me for saying that if Snape was the child of a vampire, JKR might not have said there was no "connection" to vampires, in my opinion. Of course, she is clever and tricky. :evil: The waters could be muddied again. So far, the only person reminiscent of a vampire to me is Voldemort, and we have been told he has no children. Hopefully we'll get some answers about Snape's childhood and past in Book 6 - maybe.

It has taken me half-an hour to type this, thanks to interruptions. I hope some of it is coherent, lol.

I also find it hard to believe that Snape is a vampire, I mean if you where a parent would you want a vampire teaching your children. Then again that would depend on whether they new and I also get the feeling that wizards are not afraid of vampires as much as werewolves due to the blood lollies found in Honeydukes.

Snape the child of a vampire, interesting but too Blade like for me.

Could Snape have been an orphan and the memory we see of him as a boy be the murder of his parents. It would explain why he was hiding as a child and why he feels the need to protect Harry even though there is the resentment between himself and the Potters. This could explain why Snape became an Order member and left Voldemort because Voldemort was going to recreate the situation he once went through as a child by killing Lily, James in an attempt to kill Harry. If this did happen then it would explain why Snape is childlike and why Dumbledore trusts Snape not to go running back to Voldemort.

I'll toss this out and let the terriers go: yew is "linked to the runes yr and eolh."

Hmmm.
*woof*

Alternative runic interpretations:

yr and eolh are different names for the celtic rune 'algiz' (and so far we've seen Hermione talking about Celtic runes, specifically.)
http://home.att.net/~alpine.shaman/explainrunes.html

Algiz ia associated with Valkyries (who guide spirits to Valhalla) and is associated with protection. It is in the Second Aett, which concerns 'evolution to perfection'
http://equinox.faithweb.com/runes/index2.html

That first site I mention associates the yew tree with the rune 'eiwaz' and Yggdrasil--it is also in the Second Aett. We've already heard of this one in OotP (after Hermione's O.W.L.)--and it looks quite a bit like a certain scar (or, alternatively, so does 'sowelu').

But, please do indicate when you're quoting--I had quite a blast of deja vu there for a minute. : ) !!!!!!Yeah, me too! I was a bit confused by the whole post, frankly. :huh:Well, I missed the contest. I've been saving up questions, too, but then I logged on last night about an hour too late to get it in before the 2000th post. Ah, well. . . . I trust Emerson from Mugglenet and Melissa from Leaky Cauldron to ask much better questions than any other interviewer JKR has ever had. At least they will know what not to ask!Really? Oh, no! I was still considering questions and I thought we could submit them until the end of the week! :sad:

Very interesting discussion on the wands and runes. :tu: I'm afraid I don't really know what runes are, though. I'd always categorized them as being like Tarot cards, but this isn't correct? You said that they were representative of an alphabet, Norbertha, but which alphabet and who used them? Are they all Norse?

I like Snape being symbolized by the thorn--I agree with hwyla that it certainly does represent how Snape protects himself. In the context of a rose, it's really an inner beauty protected by a nasty exterior. I would like to see more of the inner beauty in Snape. ;)

However, if Snape is that fanatical--that he has spent 15 years undercover as Voldemort's spy at Hogwarts--why not? As silver ink pot points out, since Dumbledore would be so utterly clueless to have brought Voldemort's other faithful servant with him, thinking mistakenly that Snape was on his side, Snape would have the element of surprise on his side. And Snape's no idiot: the first one you take down is Dumbledore, before he even realizes that he's been fooled for 15 solid years. Get him, in fact, as he goes through the door, from behind. He wouldn't even know what hit him; all it takes is a simple Avada Kedavra.

I'm starting to see what you mean. It would have been his perfect chance, wouldn't it? I was especially convinced by your sentences regarding Snape's chance at using the "element of surprise". It gets more convincing to examine the chances he had during that moment and how he didn't take advantage of them.

NYCWitch: Of course it would be taking a great risk to go up against Dumbledore, but Snape has another chance to rescue Barty, Jr., and he doesn't take it. Dumbledore leaves, I think to talk to Cedric Diggory's parents, and Snape and McGonagall are left in the castle with Fudge, and the Dementor is called in. Snape could have fought off McGonagall and Fudge, rescued Barty, Jr., and probably gotten Harry out of the hospital wing, all before Dumbledore returned.

I forgot about the fact that Dumbledore left. You're right, he could have come back to the room and taken Harry. (Which is kind of scary to think about) Really good points made by you and subtle science. I think you two are on to something. :) I think my mind was clouded by what JKR said to fans after OoTP was released about not "thinking that Snape is too nice". (Everyone was feeling bad for him after reading the "Snape's Worst Memory" chapter) I guess I always tied that to his loyalty to Dumbledore but I'm thinking now it just has more to do with his personality and his grudge against James Potter in general.

Norbertha: It is great to have a linguist here! You are like the J.R.R. Tolkien of the forum!
Thanks! Wow, that is some compliment, J.R.R. Tolkien is a great linguist.
Thanks, Norbertha. I can see the "double D" very clearly! And it certainly is "spiky." There's got to be a clue in all of this. Harry gets one D after another in OotP, and sometimes what he thinks are zeroes. Hmmmm.

The D rune is called Dagaz, which means day. The only symbolism I can think of for this, is day versus night. Does anyone know what Dagaz means in rune magic?
In GoF, in the scene in which Harry is awake with his egg on the stairs, Snape is wearing a "long gray nightshirt," which is sort of "Friar" like, almost like a Franciscan monk.

Oo, never thought on that before, but now that you say it, I can definitely see it. It does look like a greyfriar costume. The scariest place in Edinburgh is the Greyfriars churchyard. It was the main cemetary for Edinburgh for a long time, and got really full, so they had to keep putting new earth on top. It has these really creepy mausoleums (sp?). I felt a poltergeist in there. :scared:
Algiz ia associated with Valkyries (who guide spirits to Valhalla) and is associated with protection. It is in the Second Aett, which concerns 'evolution to perfection'

But Algiz means elk? (An animal, like a moose). *confused* The phonetical value is a kind of R, or kind of half way between R and Z. (Not H as the article says).

The Algiz and the Yr are really one and the same. It could oroginally be used both ways (the right way up or upside down) interchangeably. The R/Z sound went out of use when the language developed from Proto Norse to Old Norse (ca 600 AD), but at the same time we got the new Y sound, so the rune was used to represent this sound instead.


That first site I mention associates the yew tree with the rune 'eiwaz' and Yggdrasil Yggdrasil is an ash tree, though. :huh:

I'm afraid I don't really know what runes are, though. I'd always categorized them as being like Tarot cards, but this isn't correct? You said that they were representative of an alphabet, Norbertha, but which alphabet and who used them? Are they all Norse?
:) Okay, here comes Mundanebertha's lecture on runes (this might be long, you have been warned):

Runes are letters. The runic alphabet is an alphabet, just like the Roman one or the Greek one or the Cyrillic one. The runic alphabet is called the Futhark, after the first 6 letters.

It was in use in Northern Europe (including Britain) from the 1st century AD. It was later replaced by the Roman alphabet, at different times in different areas. In Scandinavia they were used up until - well, it's difficult to say when they died out, but at least up until 1600. A few knew about them up until the 19th century, I think, so they have never been forgotten, really. The Roman alphabet replaced them gradually, though. It came to Scandinavia ca AD 1000, then the runes and the Roman letters were both in use for centuries, with the Roman alphabet slowly replacing the runes.

The runes are probably derived from the Roman alphabet in the first place, but adapted to make them easy to carve on wood (a far cheaper medium than parchment).

Runes developed somewhat differently in Scandinavia compared to Britain. British ruens are known as Anglosaxon runes, while Scandinavian ruens are known as Norse runes.

Regarding Norse runes, there is an older futhark of 24 letters, and a younger futhark of 16 letters. These are both divided into three sets (in the older one: 8 + 8 + 8), called aettir, which means families (clans).

Each rune has its own name. These are meant as an aid to learn the alphabet. These are the names of the runes (in their Proto Norse form):

fehu "wealth, cattle", see Fe (rune)
ᚢ ûruz "aurochs" (or ûram "water / slag"?), see Ur (rune)Odal]]
ᚦ thurisaz "giant"
ᚨ ansuz "one of the Aesir" (or ahsam "ear (of corn)"?)
ᚱ raidô "ride, journey"
ᚲ kaunan "ulcer, illness", see Kaunan
ᚷ gebô "gift"
ᚹ wunjô "joy"
ᚺ haglaz "hail"
ᚾ naudiz "need"
ᛁ îsaz "ice"
ᛃ jera "year"
ᛇ îgwaz / eihwaz "yew", see Eihwaz
ᛈ perþô? "pear"?, see Peordh
ᛉ algiz "elk"?, see Algiz
ᛊ sôwilô "Sun"
ᛏ tîwaz (a god), see Tyr
ᛒ berkanan "birch"
ᛖ ehwaz "horse"
ᛗ mannaz "man", see Mannaz
ᛚ laukaz "lake"
ᛜ ingwaz (a god), see Yngvi
ᛞ dagaz "day", see Dagr
ᛟ ôþalan "estate, inheritance", see Odal

(Older Futhark. Source: Wikipedia.org)

The confusion arises because nowadays, runes are used, as you say, kind of like Tarot cards. There is a whole mythology surrounding them - most of it is modern, garbled up and imaginatively expanded versions of what they were in the Middle Ages. This branch of divination uses the old rune names for all they are worth. I want to distinguish between the Runes as an alphabet, as it was used in the past, and the modern use it has been put to, as a Divination tool.

It's an open question whether people in the Middle Ages (and before) thought runes to have magical powers. I suppose some did and some didn't.

I believe Runes could have been used for writing inscriptions that people believed had some power, such as charms or prayers on amulets, and things like that. But I don't think many people in the Middle Ages believed the Runes were any more magical than other writing. I think they believed writing could be used to do magic, but Runes were no more magical in themselves than the Roman alphabet. The reason I think this, is that inscriptions that seem to have been made for magical purposes have also been found in the Roman alphabet, not only in the Runic one.

Archaeologists have found little amulets with prayers to various Christian saints, and to various Norse gods, and messages such as "protect those who are at sea", written in Runes.

Some folk think that runes are a very pagan thing. This is not the case. Runes were used well into the christian period, and there are many runic inscriptions with a christian content.

Some early scholars thought that the runes were seen as magical in themselves, and that their primary function was for magical purposes. But modern runologists don’t agree with this. Runes are just like any other alphabet. So if you come across any books on rune magic (and there are plenty), please remember that this is not mainstream scientific runology at all. Scholars today think that the Vikings and the mediaeval society used runes just like we use the Roman alphabet today. This, of course, means that runes could also be used for writing words or formulas that the writer intended to be magical. Some artefacts found seem to be little amulets, used for protection, for example, or for pain relief during childbirth. But this does not make runes magical in themselves. (That's my opionion.)

(If you want to see pictures of real runic inscriptions from the Middle Ages, or discuss ruens in general, you are very welcome to visit my rune thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=51818))

I like Snape being symbolized by the thorn--I agree with hwyla that it certainly does represent how Snape protects himself. In the context of a rose, it's really an inner beauty protected by a nasty exterior. I would like to see more of the inner beauty in Snape.
I really like that! :clap: Hwyla and Chiev

Much more good stuff.....

I had thought that Snape once wore green to a Quidditch match in the novels, but I'll be dipped if I can find the reference...if it exists at all. If I'm not hallucinating, that would be the only reference, and the films have ignored that entirely. Even the chaos of the costuming for PoA (oh, yes; don't get me started there) nevertheless didn't touch Snape. Black and white; a touch of gray in the books--everything has been to emphasize the imagery of a priest--including the high white collar Rickman endures.

As for JKR's "too nice" comment: her comments about Snape are always frustratingly obscure. I've taken that one as a simple statement of fact: this is not a nice person. Doesn't mean he's a traitor--just that he's unpleasant. Yeah. And there's a shocking revelation.

Hi. I'm new to this thread, but Snape's character has always been a fascinationg one to me, so I hope you don't mind if I join your discussion on whether or not Snape is a traitor.

The most apparent evidence would point to--no, orcourse not. He has been loyal to Dumbledore for fifteen years, and, as pointed out, has had many oppurtunities to stab Dumbledore in the back and reap the rewards with his original(?) master. But one stone remains to be unturned here.

Severus is a spy.

We know Severus spies for the Order, so it can be assumed that he is a 'spy' for the Dark side as well, under the pretenses he is so close to Dumbledore. Now, devot fans will tell you that this is just a cover and Snape has never been anything but loyal to the dear headmaster.

But he is more than likely to be playing the spy game. He rceives information from each side, feeding it to the other when he sees fit for them to know. With this game comes power and the ultimate security. When the final battle ends and one power is left standing, he will be rewarded as either a hero for the Light, or a wonderful ally to the Dark.

Secerus is neither good nor evil. He just plays to win.

There's my take and you're welcome to it.
Kylie<><

Even the chaos of the costuming for PoA (oh, yes; don't get me started there) nevertheless didn't touch Snape. Black and white; a touch of gray in the books--everything has been to emphasize the imagery of a priest--including the high white collar Rickman endures.

As for JKR's "too nice" comment: her comments about Snape are always frustratingly obscure. I've taken that one as a simple statement of fact: this is not a nice person. Doesn't mean he's a traitor--just that he's unpleasant. Yeah. And there's a shocking revelation.

Ahh, yes...the horrible costumes in PoA. :rotfl: Before the movie came out I remember how upset I was when I didn't see the students wearing their school robes and wearing muggle clothing. Anyway, yes, JKR is very mysterious when she speaks of Snape. She is hiding something. I've always wondered whether or not he was a vampire but she's already denied that in an interview...

Okay, here comes Mundanebertha's lecture on runes Not at all--it was very interesting! You said that the runes may have always been representative of the Roman alphabet,* so do they correspond to certain roman letters? It seemed like they correspond more closely to the sounds than the letters, as we know them anyway? (I mean there are runes for some sounds not made by a single letter in the Roman alphabet?)

*"Roman alphabet" almost seems like an oxymoron, doesn't it? "Alphabet" comes from Greek (alpha beta). :lol:
I had thought that Snape once wore green to a Quidditch match in the novels, but I'll be dipped if I can find the reference...if it exists at all. I just heard this on the PoA CD as I was driving home this evening! Snape wears green (and silver?) to the Quidditch match between Gryffindor and Slytherin toward the end of PoA. (I think it might be in chapter 15. . .)
Secerus is neither good nor evil. He just plays to win.Well, I disagree with this. I think that Snape is good and is not playing (only) to win. If that was the case, why would he have left Voldemort to play both sides when Voldemort was at the height of his power? It doesn't make sense.

BTW, welcome Kylie, SnapesOnly1! :)

Well, as you know, this is one of the very few things I disagree with you about, Black Adder. Don't hate me for saying that if Snape was the child of a vampire, JKR might not have said there was no "connection" to vampires, in my opinion. Of course, she is clever and tricky. :evil: The waters could be muddied again. So far, the only person reminiscent of a vampire to me is Voldemort, and we have been told he has no children. Hopefully we'll get some answers about Snape's childhood and past in Book 6 - maybe.
I would never hate you for anything, Silver! The actual question, BTW, was whether Snape had any "links" to vampires. If he had rejected that part of his heritage, or if the vampire community had rejected him, then he wouldn't have any links to them. And as you say, JKR is always cagey with her answers when it comes to Snape. I'm just bidding my time until the next book comes out, hoping we'll start to get some answers to our many questions and speculations.

I also find it hard to believe that Snape is a vampire, I mean if you where a parent would you want a vampire teaching your children.
Many parents apparently wouldn't want a werewolf or a half-giant teaching their children, but it occurred anyway at Hogwarts.

I was going to confirm that Snape did wear green robes to a Quidditch match in one of the books, but I see that Chiev beat me to it.

Oo, never thought on that before, but now that you say it, I can definitely see it. It does look like a greyfriar costume. The scariest place in Edinburgh is the Greyfriars churchyard. It was the main cemetary for Edinburgh for a long time, and got really full, so they had to keep putting new earth on top. It has these really creepy mausoleums (sp?). I felt a poltergeist in there.

I remember the Walt Disney movie, "Greyfriar's Bobby," about a little dog in that same cemetary. I don't remember the plot, just the dog running into the cemetary gates.

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0002V2DKW.03.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

The cafe where JKR wrote the first HP books overlooked Greyfriars! This is an old article, and I don't think the cafe is open anymore, at least not as a coffee shop.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1VCpRoOWAdoJ:news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm%3Fid%3D662772003%26tid%3D3+rowling+cafe +overlooking+greyfriars&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
A second establishment she visited regularly was the Elephant House, on George IV bridge, whose much patronised back room has windows overlooking Greyfriars cemetery. A sign at the entrance now reads: "Experience the same atmosphere that JK Rowling did as she mulled over a coffee, writing the first Harry Potter novel."

I was looking at some pictures of the graveyard, Norbertha, and it really is a creepy looking place, with alot of extremely old headstones. I'm sure there are some runes there! I read somewhere last night that runes and Christian symbols are often found on the same headstone. Looking around tonight, I came across this emblem from a stone at Greyfriar's graveyard. It reminded me of someone ~ the character whose class always have to buy brass "scales."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/greyfriarsgravestoneemblem.jpg
As for JKR's "too nice" comment: her comments about Snape are always frustratingly obscure. I've taken that one as a simple statement of fact: this is not a nice person. Doesn't mean he's a traitor--just that he's unpleasant. Yeah. And there's a shocking revelation.
Do I detect a hint of sarcasm? LOL ~ It's like JKR's "revelation" about Lily: her name is Evans. Now isn't that earth shattering? Or is it that she didn't like James much? Ho Hum, she married him anyway. yawn
I just heard this on the PoA CD as I was driving home this evening! Snape wears green (and silver?) to the Quidditch match between Gryffindor and Slytherin toward the end of PoA. (I think it might be in chapter 15. . .)
Well, I stand corrected! I didn't remember that at all! Thank you! I guess sometimes he has to be "seen" in the house colors. How funny if Snape should show up in plaid someday, lol. I know - a plaid leisure suit, lol. Snape in plaid! :lol:

I remember the Walt Disney movie, "Greyfriar's Bobby," about a little dog in that same cemetary. I don't remember the plot, just the dog running into the cemetary gates.

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0002V2DKW.03.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

The cafe where JKR wrote the first HP books overlooked Greyfriars! This is an old article, and I don't think the cafe is open anymore, at least not as a coffee shop.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1VCpRoOWAdoJ:news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm%3Fid%3D662772003%26tid%3D3+rowling+cafe +overlooking+greyfriars&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


I was looking at some pictures of the graveyard, Norbertha, and it really is a creepy looking place, with alot of extremely old headstones. I'm sure there are some runes there! I read somewhere last night that runes and Christian symbols are often found on the same headstone. Looking around tonight, I came across this emblem from a stone at Greyfriar's graveyard. It reminded me of someone ~ the character whose class always have to buy brass "scales."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/greyfriarsgravestoneemblem.jpg

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm? LOL ~ It's like JKR's "revelation" about Lily: her name is Evans. Now isn't that earth shattering? Or is it that she didn't like James much? Ho Hum, she married him anyway. yawn

Well, I stand corrected! I didn't remember that at all! Thank you! I guess sometimes he has to be "seen" in the house colors. How funny if Snape should show up in plaid someday, lol. I know - a plaid leisure suit, lol. Snape in plaid! :lol:
Woah that stuff about Greyfair Cementary is oober creepy, yet completely awesome. That is a really interesing thing to know about. Thanks for the great imformation. *goes to google and does a search*

I must admit, the whole runes discussion is way over my head. But I am enjoying reading it all. You people never fail to blow me away. Just wanted to tell you all that. :)

I must admit, the whole runes discussion is way over my head. But I am enjoying reading it all. You people never fail to blow me away. Just wanted to tell you all that.
I second that. It is enlightening reading and you guys are full of interesting observations. I just find that I have nothing to truly contribute right now.

clkginny: I second that. It is enlightening reading and you guys are full of interesting observations. I just find that I have nothing to truly contribute right now.

I'm NOT alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I felt like the I was the only one going huh???????????
Interesting to read, but, like you, I have nothing to contribute right now.

vickilind: I'm NOT alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I felt like the I was the only one going huh???????????

Hey, if it makes you feel any better, I haven't been to this thread in a few days and am so lost. But I also have nothing to add, as it's late and I hvae to go to the bathroom, and there is much muttering around me.

Vickilind , Clkginny - I understand how you feel . I've been coming here now and then to see if I could post or not , and decided on "not" until the "rune phase" is over .

SIP , this is the second time I'm doing this with your post .
. I don't remember the plot, just the dog running into the cemetary gates.

Hmm.....which dog do we know that , figuratively , had the same kind of experience ? LOL !

:lol: Okey dokey, I'll leave the runes to the rune thread for now. :) I was getting rather off topic anyway. (One little thing, though: Silver - yes, grave stone inscriptions are the most common type of inscription in runes. Usually "NN wrote these runes/raised this stone in memory of NN his/her father/mother/son/daugther". I don't think there are any at Greyfriars cemetary, they went out of use very early in Britain (the Norse have left some later inscriptions in Britain, though). Even thought Greyfriars is old, it's not old enough, I don't think.)


About Snape looking like a monk: In his night shirt he looks like a greyfriar (Fransiscan), while in his black day robes he looks more like a Blackfriar (Dominican). Interestingly enough, the Blackfriars were the ones assigned the job as inquisitors! Snape is always trying to detect rule breakers, isn't he. Althoug of course Umbridge is the "high inquisitor", lol. :lol:

Norbertha, I know that many think Snape looks like a monk, or, as you say, a friar, but seeing as Mr. Rickman is such a babe, I find it so very funny! He is so sexy, even as Snape, which I don't think JKR expected! But, there it is, none-the-less. Alan Rickman a monk? Nope, never!

I wonder if we really should put much emphasis on Snape's costume in the movies - yes, it is very 'religious-like' however I wonder how much of the costume has been influenced by previous Rickman roles? Leave off the outer robe (which are also very religious ceremony-like - remind me of my old choir robes) and Snape's outfit is almost exactly the same as in his role as Rev. Obadiah Slope in Barchester Chronicles (British TV miniseries back in '82) and the ankle buttons match the ones from his costume as Le Vicomte de Valmont onstage in Les Liaisons Dangereuses in '89. But then - this could still be to purposively remind us of a preacher I suppose.

By the way Vickilind - Mr. Rickman, has not only played Rev. Slope but also Rasputin, the russian 'monk'

I really think some hints in the books that Snape wears a long floor-length robe/tunic and from SMW, I wonder if even the kids actually wear trousers. The line about taking off Snape's pants must also be pictured using the British use of 'pants' which is NOT the same as trousers (more like underwear) I think it's also important to look at early illustrations - I'm not sure I'll be able to find a link however JKR's own illustration of Snape actually had the high-collar that is more reminiscent of 'dark wizard' flared up high in back but not a high collar in front (like a priest)

edit to add:
Couldn't find a link for JKR's own illustration - need to keep looking - however here's a link for GrandPre's USA Book Illustration of Snape: See Chptr14 POA
http://www.hogwarts-gallery.org/hogwartsgallery/category.php?cat=281&expand=169,278,169,281
ps - note the beard? Think Rickman;s sexy as Snape now - imagine with the beard - sigh! shades of his Sheriff of Nottingham role in "Prince of Thieves"

ok, i've just got one little snibbet of info to add to the rune observations. you guys move so fast the topics are already done by the time i get to them :)

anyways, got out another of my rune books and found this little tinbit i thought you may get a kick out of. keep in mind this is from a book focused on the divination purposes of runes.

the main source of information on the runes is the Anglo-Saxon rune poem which was translated by monks from old english tinto latin. it would appear that this translation was not completely unbiased and that many christian style references found thier way into the translation. despite this , the essential message is stil clear.
it then goes through each rune, giving a verse for them. the one for thorn is

Thorn is very sharp to everyone,
Bad to take hold of,
Severe to those who rest among them.

i'm likely overanalysing and reading far too into this but if we didn't enjoy doing that, this thread wouldn't exist.

:tu: Syrien! Thorn does seem to be Snape's rune, doesn't it. It even says it's severe! :clap:

I wonder if we really should put much emphasis on Snape's costume in the movies

But the monk-like costumes are in the books too, as Silver Ink Pot pointed out.

The line about taking off Snape's pants must also be pictured using the British use of 'pants' which is NOT the same as trousers (more like underwear)

That is correct. Pants in British English means underpants. (In my fanfic, I used the word "knickers" instead, to make it unambiguos, and also more humiliating, since knickers are for girls, more ...)

Slightly jumping out of the flow of things for a second, I tried googling for a link to some of Jo's original sketches, best I could come up with was here (http://www.hogsmeade.com.br/noticias1/sitejk04.jpg) (It's from 2004, but you may want to avoid it just in case it might have some long-term spoiler/clue in it that I havnt heard about ;) ) - there are about 8 of them up when I googled further (this one seems to be the most Snape-relevant), scrabbled madly around tried to find the sketch section on her own site.

As Chievrefueil said, Ch. 15 of PoA: "Professor Snape sat in the very front row, wearing green like everybody else, and a very grim smile" (p. 305, US paper). The one and only time he wears anything different and any color at all. You knew I would run off and find the quote and post it here....

I happen to be a major enthusiast about strong costuming in theater and film, and the work done in the first two films was outstanding. There was, of course, the adherence to the books--Hagrid and McGonagall, for instance, lifted right off the page and onto the screen. But the deviations from the books were interesting character statements, and most noteworthy was the costuming choice for Snape. Yes--it is the same gentlemen's suit that Rickman wore in The Barchester Chronicles; that's not just significant because it's a nice little bit of trivia--his character in that series was a fundamentalist preacher. The outfit is austere, in color and cut; even the fabric is plain. It is apt for Snape because it is formal and severe (ha!); all those fiddly buttons--literally, he's pretty tightly buttoned up. And the high white collar, just visible under all that unrelieved black...a very clerical touch, giving him that slight hint of Catholic priest--also reinforced by the long coat, with its flaring skirt, which echoes a cassock. And I've mentioned before the quite symbolic use of the white underneath the black exterior.

It's an amazing piece of costuming work. It's not what JKR describes in the books--but, with the very first full-length look at Snape onscreen, you can "read" exactly what his character is. Brilliant work.

Hey--I'll just say that I thoroughly enjoyed the runes discussion: I didn't have the foggiest idea about that information, and I particularly liked getting background in order to really get a sense of how certain runes may/could apply to Snape's character. SiyrenSlytherin--the Thorn verse seems pretty apt!!

Tane, thank you for explaining about the willow. Intriguing.

Originally Posted by SyirenSlytherin
i'm likely overanalysing and reading far too into this but if we didn't enjoy doing that, this thread wouldn't exist.

Isn't that the truth? :lol: The thorn verse fits wonderfully, Syiren. :tu:

Originally Posted by silver ink pot
Looking around tonight, I came across this emblem from a stone at Greyfriar's graveyard. It reminded me of someone ~ the character whose class always have to buy brass "scales."

I get similar associations. There's something about scales - wish I could put my finger on it. I'm glad you enjoyed the birch/holly information, SIP - I thought you might.

Originally Posted by Norbertha
Yggdrasil is an ash tree, though.

Yggdrasil would still fit the general theme of death and rebirth though, wouldn't it? All right, just for that I looked up ash too. It was also used for protection, including against sorcery, though mostly in the sense of healing. In wicca (sorry, Norbertha ;) ) it is apparently considered the appropriate wood for a healer's wand, whatever that may be. Curiously, unlike holly and birch, ash attracts lightning. :huh:

thestralgrin - thanks for looking for the JKR sketch of Snape I'd mentioned. Unfortunately, the reason it's so hard for me to remember where on the net I saw it is partly because it is from a clip of a TV interview and NOT on JKR's site - I suppose it would have been helpful if I had mentioned that earlier. I'm still looking - too bad I hadn't downloaded the image at the time, so I could search by what the image was named.

subtle science - okay, I'll buy into the idea that Snape's costume was so similar to the one he wore as Rev Slope, the fundamentalist preacher to point up Snape's severe character and the buttons indicate his self-repression - and I like your mention of the white underneath (as in hidden 'good'?) - It's quite fascinating that the character who most represents the 'shades of grey' is the one dressed in black and white only.

Sidenote: It's also interesting to think about Obidah Slope's character in connection to Slytherin - he was a rather 'plotting', ambitious type under the guise of a preacher (snicker) - not something meant here for real discussion - just an interesting little tid-bit

Another Note: regarding scales - not only alude to potion ingredients being measured, but also to 'judgement day' - and since we seem to consider Snape as working towards redemption, scales are quite apt - can he ever do enough for the 'light' to balance or outweigh his 'evil' deeds. This is an entirely reasonable reason for scales to be an emblem on grave markers.

I happen to be a major enthusiast about strong costuming in theater and film, and the work done in the first two films was outstanding. There was, of course, the adherence to the books--Hagrid and McGonagall, for instance, lifted right off the page and onto the screen. But the deviations from the books were interesting character statements, and most noteworthy was the costuming choice for Snape. Yes--it is the same gentlemen's suit that Rickman wore in The Barchester Chronicles; that's not just significant because it's a nice little bit of trivia--his character in that series was a fundamentalist preacher. The outfit is austere, in color and cut; even the fabric is plain. It is apt for Snape because it is formal and severe (ha!); all those fiddly buttons--literally, he's pretty tightly buttoned up. And the high white collar, just visible under all that unrelieved black...a very clerical touch, giving him that slight hint of Catholic priest--also reinforced by the long coat, with its flaring skirt, which echoes a cassock. And I've mentioned before the quite symbolic use of the white underneath the black exterior.

It's an amazing piece of costuming work. It's not what JKR describes in the books--but, with the very first full-length look at Snape onscreen, you can "read" exactly what his character is. Brilliant work.I've always liked your interpretation of the costume, subtle. :tu: Also, what has JKR said about Rickman as Snape? Has she ever said that in the films he appears as she had imagined him? I thought I remembered something like that, although I'll have to look to be sure.
That is correct. Pants in British English means underpants. (In my fanfic, I used the word "knickers" instead, to make it unambiguos, and also more humiliating, since knickers are for girls, more ...)Sorry, Norbertha, but knickers might still have a different connotation to Americans than underwear (underpants, undergarments). The first time I ever heard the word "knickers" instead of "panties" (feminine undergarments) was in Bridget Jones's Diary. I always thought of knickers being knee length pants: http://www.nba.com/knicks/news/00398004.html?nav=ArticleList

Apparently, it comes from Dutch settlers in New York. (or New Amsterdam? ;) )

It certainly adds a whole new spin to the New York basketball team, the NY Knicks (which is short for Knickerbockers, a nod to the Dutch settlement of New Amsterdam). Okay. Not going to pursue that line of thought any further.

I don't know of anything JKR may have said relating to Rickman and costume in the films. I know Rickman was on her list for whom she wanted to play Snape--despite the fact that he's got blonde/light-brown hair and hazel eyes. Fortunately, she could see past that!

I have to admit that I was surprised by his costume, since it wasn't book-Snape-outfit, when I first saw it. But I instantly loved it...as, I think, I may have made clear : ) !!! And, a t the very least, there hasn't been a howl of protest from JKR's direction...!

Slightly off the track again, I've seen some pretty interesting costume interpretations in fan-art around places like Elfwood, This (http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/fanq/a/l/alicuanan4/snapepissed.gif.html) for example (Though I'm not sure re' goffy finger-sleeve part). & yes that was thoroughly gratuitous of me & no I'm not the artist ;)

thestralgrin, the finger-thing is very goofy. Plus, he looks really young to me, but it's a good pic. Not to offend, but I much prefer Mr. Rickman. nudge, nudge, wink, wink

thestralgrin, the finger-thing is very goofy. Plus, he looks really young to me, but it's a good pic. Not to offend, but I much prefer Mr. Rickman. nudge, nudge, wink, wink

Aww..but angry goffic Snape is rather cute :blush: :cool:

Anyway, back to the serious stuff ^-

I have never seen the show with Alan as Rev Slope, but even as Rasputin, I have to suspend my disbelief. Although, I guess it isn't too far-fetched. Near our old house, there was a greek-orthodox church, and I met the young, and Very handsome priest that lives/works there. Kind and well-spoken, wearing trousers and a long (mid-calf) coat, similar to a cossack. Took the vow of celebacy and everything. (we spoke for a while; he was very patient with all my questions) All I could think was; there are going to be some sad women in that congregation! Same thing with Alan playing a monk, reverend or even our presumed celebate Snape.

We've still got serious stuff? :D I'm glad to see I'm not the only one whose train of thought was derailed by some of the above posts. On that note, would any of you happen to know a good trick for deleting disturbing mental images? :whistle:

Topic - find topic - must be here somewhere...

It certainly adds a whole new spin to the New York basketball team, the NY Knicks (which is short for Knickerbockers, a nod to the Dutch settlement of New Amsterdam). Okay. Not going to pursue that line of thought any further.Did Dennis Rodman ever play for the Knicks? ;) :lol:I don't know of anything JKR may have said relating to Rickman and costume in the films. I know Rickman was on her list for whom she wanted to play Snape--despite the fact that he's got blonde/light-brown hair and hazel eyes. Fortunately, she could see past that!I'll check when I get home from work to see what I can find on her on Alan Rickman.

We'd better start having some real in-depth discussion again, though. We wouldn't want this thread to be shut down for lack of content, like the Lupin thread was! :scared:

*trying to come up with a new Snape-topic*

Accio UK (http://www.accio.org.uk/) will be having a mock trial for Snape next month. The first 2 charges leveled are:

1. That the accused did, feloniously, treasonously and with malice aforethought, combine with others to support the most bloody, abominable and beastly cause of the notorious, prescribed and avowed traitor Tom Marvolo Riddle, sometime called Lord Voldemort. (Basically, this means that the greasy git ganged up with You Know Who and his mates)

2. That the accused did, feloniously, treasonously and with malice aforethought, voluntarily accept membership within a prescribed and illegal organization, vulgarly termed "the Death Eaters"; (the slime ball joined the Death Eaters as well)

I have a hard time seeing how these 2 charges are different (I guess it's a "subtle distinction" :lol: ), but I've been trying to figure out how to defend this when we know it's true. It seems the only kind of defense would be mitigating circumstances. Are there any clues throughout the books that suggest why Snape really supported Voldemort and joined the Death Eaters?

Somewhat off-topic, but I find myself watching Snape in the movies (not just because of Mr. Rickman), looking for puzzle pieces, because I read or saw somewhere that JK gave him most of the background of Snape to facilitate his playing the character. I am always hoping I'll catch something, but it is probably a futile search.

ETA: oops, synchronized posting. Technically, it would be a war crimes trial, right? The best argument would be his position as a double agent, mitigating his role as a DE. However, regardless of our personal beliefs, no effective argument can be made until proof is presented in canon. Which could be 29 days from now, or a couple of years.

Off-topic? Well maybe . . . but we were searching for some runes that might hold clues about Snape's character, so I don't see how that is exactly off-topic.

About Snape looking like a monk: In his night shirt he looks like a greyfriar (Fransiscan), while in his black day robes he looks more like a Blackfriar (Dominican). Interestingly enough, the Blackfriars were the ones assigned the job as inquisitors! Snape is always trying to detect rule breakers, isn't he. Althoug of course Umbridge is the "high inquisitor", lol.
Blackfriar! That is hilarious, and Snape is indeed Harry's inquisitor! :p
it then goes through each rune, giving a verse for them. the one for thorn is
Quote:
Thorn is very sharp to everyone,
Bad to take hold of,
Severe to those who rest among them.

Great poem! I like the line "sharp to everyone." :lol:
Slightly jumping out of the flow of things for a second, I tried googling for a link to some of Jo's original sketches, best I could come up with was here (It's from 2004, but you may want to avoid it just in case it might have some long-term spoiler/clue in it that I havnt heard about ) - there are about 8 of them up when I googled further (this one seems to be the most Snape-relevant), scrabbled madly around tried to find the sketch section on her own site.
Thestralgrin: I think I grabbed this one of Snape before they were all removed offline. I believe this is JKR's own illustration:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/Snape-MadamePincePageBBcshow.jpg

I happen to be a major enthusiast about strong costuming in theater and film, and the work done in the first two films was outstanding. There was, of course, the adherence to the books--Hagrid and McGonagall, for instance, lifted right off the page and onto the screen. But the deviations from the books were interesting character statements, and most noteworthy was the costuming choice for Snape. Yes--it is the same gentlemen's suit that Rickman wore in The Barchester Chronicles; that's not just significant because it's a nice little bit of trivia--his character in that series was a fundamentalist preacher. The outfit is austere, in color and cut; even the fabric is plain. It is apt for Snape because it is formal and severe (ha!); all those fiddly buttons--literally, he's pretty tightly buttoned up. And the high white collar, just visible under all that unrelieved black...a very clerical touch, giving him that slight hint of Catholic priest--also reinforced by the long coat, with its flaring skirt, which echoes a cassock. And I've mentioned before the quite symbolic use of the white underneath the black exterior.

It's an amazing piece of costuming work. It's not what JKR describes in the books--but, with the very first full-length look at Snape onscreen, you can "read" exactly what his character is. Brilliant work.

I have to admit that I was surprised by his costume, since it wasn't book-Snape-outfit, when I first saw it. But I instantly loved it...as, I think, I may have made clear : ) !!! And, a t the very least, there hasn't been a howl of protest from JKR's direction...!

I agree with you, Subtle, that JKR is "allowing" some leeway with her original view of Snape in the movies, in order for the viewers to make some symbolic connections. I couldn't resist trying to find a picture from Barchester Chronicles and comparing it to the movie Snape. It looks to me as if he is wearing the same exact collar! But I also found pictures of other famous characters who dress in the same severe way, and with the same high collars, but they aren't preachers, just very "proper" people. In my attachment, Mr. Knightly has a very similar collar, but his character is supposed to be rather preachy to Emma (JKR's favorite book!). Of all these actors, I think Timothy Dalton could have played Snape extremely well. If you've ever seen his version of Jane Eyre, he is an almost scary version of Mr. Rochester, dark secrets and all!