Development of Snape's character through OotP, v.3

Chiev, are you trying to save us from ourselves? ;)

Okay, count 2: Was it a "prescribed and illegal organisation" at the time Snape joined? Few people seemed to be aware of the extent of their activities when Regulus joined, and that was almost certainly later than Snape. Rather similar to Dumbledore's argument that the first meeting of the DA, in the Hog's Head, was not in violation of Educational Decree whichever, because the Decree was not in effect at the time of the meeting.

It should be an interesting trial to watch.

Chiev: I'm very curious to hear how they conduct that trial.

:sad: I actually dislike the idea intensely, since JKR didn't see fit to show us a real trial of Snape in the books, so the Accio folks are going to dig and conjecture with no real background from the books on how Snape joined the DEs, what he did there, and how he got out.

Of course, the new book will have been out a week or so, and maybe they will have enough background by then to put on a case. It will be extremely embarassing to them if something contradicts the whole idea of "Snape on Trial," won't it?

When I read about that trial, all I could think of was why don't they put Voldemort on trial, and let the families of all the characters who have lost loved ones testify against him. Even Harry. At least we have canon to back all of that up. :tu:

Thank you silver ink pot - yes that is the JKR drawing of Snape that I was talking about - and since you say it was removed from the web, that explains why I couldn't find it any more. I remember that the image had been shown by JKR during a TV interview - relatively early on. Thanks for putting it up for us to see!

silver ink pot--That collection of images is great (plus the JKR sketch of Snape, which really gets closer to the fact than Grandpre's work....not a fan there....). The outfit that Snape wears is actually a real Victorian gentlemen's suit, dating from the 1870's, approximately. I happened to see a costuming book in the library one day and, given my propensities, flipped through it. Lo and behold--there it was, and that's how I know the period. So, it's not a shock that a number of characters are shown wearing it. It stands out in the HP films (well, the first two) because Snape is the only person in either film wearing unrelieved black (but for that white collar and cuffs); he also doesn't wear luxurious fabrics (a la Harris' Dumbeldore, or the crushed velvet for Smith's McGonagall). And that shot of him reacting to "our new celebrity," with the camera shooting up* and Rickman framed against the Gothic ceiling arches, as if he's in a cathedral pulpit. Oh yeah: applause all around for a thorugh-going character definition in five seconds of film.
(*highly entertaining Rickman comment in an interview: "When they [directors] want me to look the villain, they put the camera on the floor and shoot up my nose.")

As for Snape's trial. One of the obvious answers to the trial is Dumbeldore's own comments during Karkaroff's hearing in GoF: Snape has already been cleared by this council. The Accio trial is double jeopardy: he cannot be tried again for a crime for which he has already been cleared. Aside from that rather large, gaping technicality, which renders the whole proceeding moot--Alisel has the main point: was the organization illegal when he participated and joined? That's what the two separate charges are about: one that he was active, and the other that he was an actual member, not just a one-shot bystander. For those old enough to remember: this was a key issue in the Patty Hearst trial a thousand years ago.

Chiev, are you trying to save us from ourselves? ;) I just want to make sure there's enough serious discussion that the "fangirling" of Alan Rickman will be overlooked. :)Okay, count 2: Was it a "prescribed and illegal organisation" at the time Snape joined? Few people seemed to be aware of the extent of their activities when Regulus joined, and that was almost certainly later than Snape. Rather similar to Dumbledore's argument that the first meeting of the DA, in the Hog's Head, was not in violation of Educational Decree whichever, because the Decree was not in effect at the time of the meeting.

It should be an interesting trial to watch.Yes, and that's an excellent point! There's nothing to say that it was illegal to support Voldemort or join the Death Eaters. When speaking of Regulus, Sirius never said that he broke the law. Most likely, it was just certain activities of the Death Eaters that were illegal, not the organization itself.
Chiev: I'm very curious to hear how they conduct that trial.

:sad: I actually dislike the idea intensely, since JKR didn't see fit to show us a real trial of Snape in the books, so the Accio folks are going to dig and conjecture with no real background from the books on how Snape joined the DEs, what he did there, and how he got out. I think the trial is meant to be an exercise like what we do here. The last 2 charges have to do with whether or not Snape is still a Death Eater and his treatment of the kids at Hogwarts. Assuming that both sides submit arguments, the exercise should be balanced.

You're right about JKR not showing us a trial, but Dumbledore alluded to one in the Pensieve memory. That might also be a good defense--Snape has already been tried in a court that knew the details and was not found to be guilty.Of course, the new book will have been out a week or so, and maybe they will have enough background by then to put on a case. It will be extremely embarassing to them if something contradicts the whole idea of "Snape on Trial," won't it?The arguments might have to be revised, if there is some new major revelation about it. You seem to be thinking that the trial itself is proof that the Accio people believe Snape guilty, but if the defense arguments are good, the outcome isn't predetermined. Snape is a good object for a trial because there's so much disagreement about him.When I read about that trial, all I could think of was why don't they put Voldemort on trial, and let the families of all the characters who have lost loved ones testify against him. Even Harry. At least we have canon to back all of that up. :tu:I'm sorry, SIP, but I don't think that sounds interesting at all. Everyone agrees that Voldemort is guilty. If all the victims "testified," it would be like a sentencing hearing in a real trial--it would be sad, rather than lively.

The Accio trial is double jeopardy: he cannot be tried again for a crime for which he has already been cleared. We don't know for certain whether it was a trial or just a hearing, though. Also, I'm not sure about the double jeopardy issue. If there was a prior trial, it would depend on the exact charges--if these charges are different, then double jeopardy doesn't come into play. Also, I'm not sure about double jeopardy in different venues. For example, could someone acquitted of a crime in their own country then by subject to a trial for the same crime in a different country? Probably not, but it would depend on the treaties between the 2 countries. Of course, all this is moot because, even if the Accio court was really part of the British legal system, Potterverse isn't real. :rolleyes: I guess my question would be whether or not the wizarding world had any kind of treaty with the muggle world regarding criminal trials. Could Sirius have been tried twice for the same crime, killing the 12 muggles (if he'd received a trial at all)? The fact that he was sent to Azkaban without a trial makes me think that, if he'd been acquitted in a muggle court (no murder weapon, say), he could have been tried in a wizard court.

I feel a bit foolish for writing such a long post about something so silly. :blush:

hi guys, nice to see this thread still lives.
Yeh, I saw something about this "trial" and I wondered in what tin pot dictatorship do we get to try somebody for the same thing twice?
And the question as to whether being a DE was actually illegal is interesting.
It was illegal, I imagine when the aurors were allowed to use extraordinary police powers, it was, but don't really know if being a DE was always a crime.
I guess it's a good way for lively debate but frankly the first two charges would likely
get the toss because of double jeopardy and even the third --- well throwing the
cockroach jar at Harry and knocking him to the floor might earn him a conviction but
all the other "mean things" Snape does aren't illegal. There's no law that says you have to be "nice" guy.
I figure slap on the wrist for the cockroach jar to be followed by some sort of anger management class

Thestralgrin: I think I grabbed this one of Snape before they were all removed offline. I believe this is JKR's own illustration:

Thanks for that - it's actually pretty close to my own mental image of him - especially considering that in the beginning of my HP fanhood I saw the film before reading the books. Actually, by the look of that pic you could almost imagine Rowan Atkinson doing him ... not a bad drawing either.

silver ink pot--That collection of images is great (plus the JKR sketch of Snape, which really gets closer to the fact than Grandpre's work....not a fan there....). The outfit that Snape wears is actually a real Victorian gentlemen's suit, dating from the 1870's, approximately. I happened to see a costuming book in the library one day and, given my propensities, flipped through it. Lo and behold--there it was, and that's how I know the period. So, it's not a shock that a number of characters are shown wearing it. It stands out in the HP films (well, the first two) because Snape is the only person in either film wearing unrelieved black (but for that white collar and cuffs); he also doesn't wear luxurious fabrics (a la Harris' Dumbeldore, or the crushed velvet for Smith's McGonagall).
I'm glad you liked the comparisons. To me, the relevant point is that all those characters in my comparison are also literary characters, and they all wear black in the books. Unrelieved black. I can't imagine Darcy or Knightly in any other color - they are supposed to look Puritanical. Rochester actually acts more like Snape, in a Gothic way, and he has the same angry nature that he takes out on those around him. Again, he is always in black.

I'm really not just being a fangirl! :) I'm sorry if it seems this is off-topic. To me, this isn't just costuming, though subtle's point is clear: JKR allowed Snape to be dressed that way to make some sort of connection to other characters in literature. No doubt in my mind.
As for Snape's trial. One of the obvious answers to the trial is Dumbeldore's own comments during Karkaroff's hearing in GoF: Snape has already been cleared by this council. The Accio trial is double jeopardy: he cannot be tried again for a crime for which he has already been cleared. Aside from that rather large, gaping technicality, which renders the whole proceeding moot--Alisel has the main point: was the organization illegal when he participated and joined? That's what the two separate charges are about: one that he was active, and the other that he was an actual member, not just a one-shot bystander. For those old enough to remember: this was a key issue in the Patty Hearst trial a thousand years ago.
Great point about Patty Hearst. As I recall, she was "kidnapped" but then turned up with some radicals committing a crime. On a photo of the crime, she appeared to be holding a gun and participating, so the question was whether she had been brainwashed or whether the kidnapping was staged.
I'm sorry, SIP, but I don't think that sounds interesting at all. Everyone agrees that Voldemort is guilty. If all the victims "testified," it would be like a sentencing hearing in a real trial--it would be sad, rather than lively.
I know, but I'd like more evidence of wrongdoing, Umbridge-style, before Snape is put on trial.
The arguments might have to be revised, if there is some new major revelation about it. You seem to be thinking that the trial itself is proof that the Accio people believe Snape guilty, but if the defense arguments are good, the outcome isn't predetermined. Snape is a good object for a trial because there's so much disagreement about him.
:) That's for sure, LOL. It should be lively, LOL. I'm imagining people with signs in the hallway saying "Free Snape."
Yeh, I saw something about this "trial" and I wondered in what tin pot dictatorship do we get to try somebody for the same thing twice?
Bahahahahahaha:lol:
I figure slap on the wrist for the cockroach jar to be followed by some sort of anger management class
I agree, if that, lol.

Thanks for that - it's actually pretty close to my own mental image of him - especially considering that in the beginning of my HP fanhood I saw the film before reading the books. Actually, by the look of that pic you could almost imagine Rowan Atkinson doing him ... not a bad drawing either.
Thanks. But Rowan Atkinson? I don't think so, lol.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot
I'm really not just being a fangirl!

Not you, SIP! Costuming is relevant, and I enjoyed the images you posted. The ones I was having trouble with were on the inside of my own head.

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil
I think the trial is meant to be an exercise like what we do here. The last 2 charges have to do with whether or not Snape is still a Death Eater and his treatment of the kids at Hogwarts. Assuming that both sides submit arguments, the exercise should be balanced.

:agree: That's what I'm hoping for. It has more potential for good debate than any of the obvious cases. Of course, there's always the danger that it may get rather heated - I wonder if they've considered how to deal with that?

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil
I guess my question would be whether or not the wizarding world had any kind of treaty with the muggle world regarding criminal trials.

I don't think that would be practically possible, as the muggles are not supposed to have any knowledge about the magical world. We've already seen how much difficulty muggle law enforcement has when it comes to dealing with magical crime. Just think of the Riddles who "all appeared to be in
perfect health -- apart from the fact that they were all dead" and muggles who were murdered by Pettigrew but supposedly died because of a gas explosion. It's not just that they can't find the murder weapon, they're unable to determine that a crime has been committed at all. Of course it doesn't help that any muggle witnesses get their memories modified after apparently very inadequate questioning. It's difficult to see how muggle courts would ever be able to hold a trial under those circumstances, and I doubt the result of any such trial would be accepted by the Ministry of Magic.

I seriously doubt that snape will change, especially after the whole thing with his worst memory being seen by Harry, but who knows JK Rowling could show us a change in all of the characters...

This just popped into my head. I wonder if they are going to have someone playing the character of Snape in the mock trial? I hope he's a good actor. :tu: He certainly can't "overreact" to the charges, lol.

Of course it doesn't help that any muggle witnesses get their memories modified after apparently very inadequate questioning. It's difficult to see how muggle courts would ever be able to hold a trial under those circumstances, and I doubt the result of any such trial would be accepted by the Ministry of Magic.
That's a very good point. I don't like all the "memory tampering" that goes on.
Not you, SIP! Costuming is relevant, and I enjoyed the images you posted. The ones I was having trouble with were on the inside of my own head.
:) OK, lol.

Another thought I had when I first saw the PS/SS film, as an almost immediate question: how in the world was SNape going to reveal the Dark Mark at the end of GoF. Sort of loses the drama of the moment if everyone has to hang around waiting while Snape undoes that row of buttons up to his elbow ("just a sec--hang on; I swear, this'll be really good. Almost there. Wait 'til you see this--"). Told you I was a costuming freak..............

Is Snape really going to be on trial for his treatment of students?

Is Snape really going to be on trial for his treatment of students?i remember seeing a long list of charges in some thread (can't remember which) and the more the list went on, the stupider the charges became. I think there was one for voluntarily being unhelpful (that's the gist, I'm not good with words) referring to the GoF episode outside DD's office.. how can you charge a wizard for that? It wouldn't even be fun..

I've loved the costume analysis, thanks SIP for the pics. I agree
with Subtle regarding the reason behind the costumes. The first movie was so keen on detail, they would pick costumes very carefully. I know, there's the fact that the kids wear muggle clothing.. but I think that was a deliberate choice to appeal to audiences, and then it had to stay.

I was wondering if JK might have been affected by the costume choice for Snape and if she has pictured Rickman while writing books 5 and 6.. She did say she had Rickman in mind for the job, would she have that image in mind, too?

Last bit.. it's Malfoy (Draco) who gets referenced as looking "like a vicar" at the Yule Ball. I always thought he wore an outfit Snape would have appreciated, but i wonder if there' anything more to that connection. After all, Snape is never said to look like a vicar, or priest.. just an overgrown bat or an ugly git ;)

Chiev: Thanks for bringing up the Accio Snape trial here! :tu:
(And about the knickers: Darn, it's hard to find unambiguous words that mean the same thing on both sides of the Atlantic! :rotfl:)

Okay, count 2: Was it a "prescribed and illegal organisation" at the time Snape joined? Few people seemed to be aware of the extent of their activities when Regulus joined, and that was almost certainly later than Snape. Rather similar to Dumbledore's argument that the first meeting of the DA, in the Hog's Head, was not in violation of Educational Decree whichever, because the Decree was not in effect at the time of the meeting.

It should be an interesting trial to watch.
As for Snape's trial. One of the obvious answers to the trial is Dumbeldore's own comments during Karkaroff's hearing in GoF: Snape has already been cleared by this council. The Accio trial is double jeopardy: he cannot be tried again for a crime for which he has already been cleared.

Very good points, both of you.

If the organisation was not illegal, but its activities were illegal, it will be a short but boring trial, since there is nothing in the books whatsoever about what Snape did as a DE... :sigh: :lol:

I know, but I'd like more evidence of wrongdoing, Umbridge-style, before Snape is put on trial.



Don't worry, Silver, the trial is only to have some fun on the Friday night of the conferece. :)

I'm imagining people with signs in the hallway saying "Free Snape."
Good idea! :rotfl:

I wonder if they are going to have someone playing the character of Snape in the mock trial?
No, unfortunately. It's "in absentia".

EDIT: Silver, thanks for the Snape drawing you posted. I'm usually not a fan of the Snape the Bat theory, but in this drawing, his cloak does look like bat wings. It looks like he's about to fly.

Hello everyone! It's been quite awhile since I last posted here, so please forgive me for not reading the hundreds of new posts. :blush:

I think the idea of Snape on trial for his activities as a DE would be most interesting. However, considering that many presumed DE's were chucked into Azkaban without even the "legal niceties" of a trial, I do wonder how Snape was acquitted and what role DD played in that acquittal.

The idea of double jeopardy was brought up and though I'm sure some wizards, like Barty Crouch, Sr. or Umbridge would love to try a person over and over until they got a conviction, I have a feeling that double jeopardy (at least legally) is not an issue. Look how mad Crouch got over Bagman's acquittal. So, assuming Snape actually got a trial (ironically, Crouch avoided the whole double jeopardy issue by just forgoing trials :grumble:), I doubt he could or would be tried again for the same charges. (In the books at least. No telling what can go on at a mock trial. :))

I'm really not just being a fangirl!Sorry, SIP, my comments definitely weren't directed at you.

Also, I have no problem with the "fangirling," I just didn't want that to be all we were discussing. So by all means, let the "fangirling" continue! After all, how can we completely ignore a good-looking, intelligent, and talented man wearing a costume with so many buttons demanding to be undone? ;)
I'm imagining people with signs in the hallway saying "Free Snape.":rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Of course, there's always the danger that it may get rather heated - I wonder if they've considered how to deal with that?That's a good question.
I don't think that would be practically possible, as the muggles are not supposed to have any knowledge about the magical world. But, there is some cross-over. When Sirius escaped in PoA, Fudge contacted the Prime Minister and efforts to capture him were coordinated between the wizarding and muggle worlds. That made me think the upper eschelons of British government were aware of the wizarding world.
Is Snape really going to be on trial for his treatment of students?
i remember seeing a long list of charges in some thread (can't remember which) and the more the list went on, the stupider the charges became. I think there was one for voluntarily being unhelpful (that's the gist, I'm not good with words) referring to the GoF episode outside DD's office.. how can you charge a wizard for that? It wouldn't even be fun..There are only 4 "charges" listed for the mock trial. I listed the first 2 in an earlier post. Here are the other 2:

3. That the accused, feloniously, treasonously and with malice aforethought, continues as a member in the said illegal organization. (AND he never left!)

4. That the accused has on divers occasions and under the guise of lawful chastisement committed assault and battery on minors in respect of whom he was in loco parentis, such assault and battery being occasioned by divers magical and physical means, and resulting in perceptible physical and psychological harm to the said minors. (Severus Snape is a great bullying git who picks on the children he's supposed to be taking care of)

I didn't post these earlier because we've discussed them quite a bit and I have a much better grasp on how Snape's defense would be framed.

I'm not sure what you saw in another thread, Severa78. Perhaps you were in the "Pureblood Supremacist Agenda" thread? :evil: :p

Originally posted by Chievrefueil: After all, how can we completely ignore a good-looking, intelligent, and talented man wearing a costume with so many buttons demanding to be undone?

Yes, they do just beg for some kind, caring woman to undo them, don't they? Okay, I'll volunteer! ;)

On the same lines; I saw the first movie before reading the books and so I automatically see and hear Alan when I read the books. He IS Snape and I just can't see anyone else in the role. It's kind of funny, because Alan doesn't resemble the pictures in the books at Chapter heads, but that's okay with me.
The costumes are so great! They convey the differences between the muggle world and wizard world so well. I was kind of disappointed that the kids were in muggle clothes so much in PoA, but not much I can do about that.
Free Snape!!!

Sorry, SIP, my comments definitely weren't directed at you.
I'm sorry - I think I was just feeling a little fiesty this morning, lol. :evil:

Also, I have no problem with the "fangirling," I just didn't want that to be all we were discussing. So by all means, let the "fangirling" continue! After all, how can we completely ignore a good-looking, intelligent, and talented man wearing a costume with so many buttons demanding to be undone
uh-oh! I'm blushing now! :blush:
But, there is some cross-over. When Sirius escaped in PoA, Fudge contacted the Prime Minister and efforts to capture him were coordinated between the wizarding and muggle worlds. That made me think the upper eschelons of British government were aware of the wizarding world.
:tu: That's what I was thinking. Also, interestingly, JKR made this statement about Mrs. Figg. I don't know if she meant this literally, but she usually chooses her words carefully:

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=19

Arabella Figg operates as Dumbledore’s liaison between the magical and Muggle worlds. :huh:

Last bit.. it's Malfoy (Draco) who gets referenced as looking "like a vicar" at the Yule Ball. I always thought he wore an outfit Snape would have appreciated, but i wonder if there' anything more to that connection. After all, Snape is never said to look like a vicar, or priest.. just an overgrown bat or an ugly git

Severa: I forgot about that reference to Draco! Fascinating, isn't it?

I just thought of another character that JKR might be familiar with: Dr. Syn/ The Scarecrow of Romney Marsh, played by Patrick McGoohan. Do any of you remember this? It was serialized by World of Disney in the U.S. Dr. Syn is a pirate, but also a vicar, lol, who dresses like a scarecrow and rides around scaring people and helping smugglers. Check out the high collar:

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/d/drsyn2.jpg

Webpage:
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/syn.htm

I could write a whole post just on Patrick McGoohan, who was "The Prisoner" in the TV series with the giant chess set, and he played the angry veterinarian who supposedly kills his own daughter's cat in Disney's "Thomasina." Thomasina is based on the book by Paul Gallico, one of JKR's favorite writers. The book has chapters written from the cat's point of view; and the cat thinks it has been reincarnated as the Egyptian goddess Bast-Ra. The vet always wears black, too, and there is a witch who can heal animals ~ well, you just have to read it sometime. :tu:

Maybe eventually Harry will meet a Vicar and think, "You know - he dresses just like Snape!" Or would that be too taxing on Harry's brain? :angel:

Another thought I had when I first saw the PS/SS film, as an almost immediate question: how in the world was SNape going to reveal the Dark Mark at the end of GoF. Sort of loses the drama of the moment if everyone has to hang around waiting while Snape undoes that row of buttons up to his elbow ("just a sec--hang on; I swear, this'll be really good. Almost there. Wait 'til you see this--"). Told you I was a costuming freak..............
:rotfl: Great question! But you forgot an important detail. This is the wizarding world - so, magic buttons! :p (That sounds a little strange, but I didn't mean it that way, lol. Blushing again).
Is Snape really going to be on trial for his treatment of students?
I can see why that would frighten a teacher! :scared:
EDIT: Silver, thanks for the Snape drawing you posted. I'm usually not a fan of the Snape the Bat theory, but in this drawing, his cloak does look like bat wings. It looks like he's about to fly.
Well, he looks really "black," whatever he is supposed to look like. :whistle: His nose looks very "beaky."

Wow, I finally hit the bottom of the page! I haven't been here for ONE DAY, and the thread grows two pages. Holy frijoles.

Anyway, this costuming/fangirl/vicar discussion has had me rolling in my seat. I couldn't possibly quote all of you. But I will say this: Fangirls are amusing as long as they're not obsessive; subtle, you remind me of my sister, she's good with clothes, and the button issue? He'd just pull a Superman and rip them all off.

23DuelsADay, things move fast here! I check most mornings and when I get home after work, there always seems to be a whole page of posts to catch up on. I try to keep my threads down to about 5 or 6, because I can't keep up with more than that!

If you don't know of it already, over in Muggle Studies there's the Alan Rickman/Snape Appreciation Thread. Mostly it's unashamed drooling over Rickman, and the posters there have an extraordinary talent for tracking lovely photos of him down. Plus, the folks there are incredibly friendly and funny, so it's doubly worth a visit.


I figure the only real solution to the button dlimma at the end of GoF would be shirtsleeves to start with--which also makes symbolic sense, as it would reveal the white shirt under the black coat, and which also fits the end of GoF, when Snape reveals his true and absolute loyalty to Dumbledore.

I just keep chanting to myself, hoping it somehow reaches the filmmakers: 'please don't screw this up.' Without Cuaron's directing, I have some hope (erm. Yeah. Guess I just let everyone know my opinion of Cuaron ranks somewhere close to Grandpre's illustrations....Nothing if not opinionated).

The trial charges are just odd. The first two depend upon its being illegal after the fact to have been a DE, and the charge that he's still a DE directly contradicts canon. The first two are grounds for a motion to dismiss. The only charge he's liable for is the one about the students--because he threw Harry to the floor. And, yeah, in the US, he'd lose his job; doesn't matter what the kid ever did (I work in a private school, and even there we've been told that, even if it's in defense, we are not to lay a hand on a student; it's immediate dismissal).

silver ink pot--I'm stunned: what a blast from the past--I never thought anyone ever would have known about the Scarecrow; that enraptured me as a kid. As you can tell, my tastes have never changed! Give me the austere git who leads the double life.

Ach , all this talk about clothes has got my head reeling . I'm beginning to feel that this section of the thread would have been a treat to a house-elf !

Subtle - Is there any canon evidence that Snape experienced a trial similar to Karkaroff's ? I do not seem to remember any at the moment . In the Pensieve , once Karkaroff names Snape as well , Crouch says - " Snape has already been cleared .He has been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore. " Following this , Karkaroff protests that Snape was still a DE . Then , Albus gets up and says " Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater , but he has returned to our side at great personal risk .He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." ( Sorry , but this was from memory and not the exact quote .)

I always thought that Severus didnt have to face a full Wizengamot council and be subjected to a barrage of questions from them , and that he had a one-on-one with Dumbledore , who in turn met up with Crouch and gang and managed to convince them about Snape. I agree that there is no evidence to this , it's just the way I thought it happened . I somehow could not picture a Snape freshly returned from the DE's having it in him to face that pack of vultures in the Wizengamot ( I exclude that lady who congratulated Bagman during his trial....really ! what WAS that !! )

Vickilind - NO Sierra Mist here ! :sigh:
You say your brother's been here ? Why dont you come down here yourself ? You know that there's atleast one HP fan who can show you the sights here !:D

Albie--You left out a key bit from what Crouch says--italics mine:

"Snape has been cleared by this council," said Crouch disdainfully. "He has been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore."
"No!" shouted Karkaroff, starining at the chains that bound him to the chair. "I assure you! Severus Snape is a Death Eater!"
Dumbledore had gotten to his feet.
"I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned soy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am" (pp. 590-591, GoF, US paper).


And--ah...okay. You didn't like the rune discussion, and now you don't like the costuming discussion. Hm.

It seems an odd reaction, doesn't it...Dumbledore getting to his feet but then proceeding to calmly saying his peace...I understand that he doesn't want to yell, and that there is the understanding yelling wouldn't help, but the fact he felt impatient enough to get to his feet...i geuss he really does respect and appreciate what Snape is doing for the order.

A very miscellanous post...forgive me! It's hard to compete with the minds of Subtle and Silver ink pot (or SIP as everyone affectionately knows you, which had me baffled for a while...i thought there was some random user who i couldn't see...i'm really quick as you can tell...)

The trial charges are just odd. The first two depend upon its being illegal after the fact to have been a DE, and the charge that he's still a DE directly contradicts canon. It wasn't illegal to be a member of the Nazi Party until the end of WWII, though. I wasn't sure what sort of involvement would be required to make one guilty of a crime, so I looked up Rudolph Hess, who was culpable enough to be sentenced to life in prison, but not culpable enough to be executed with the rest of the Nazi leaders. This is from http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/meetthedefendants.html:

Hess's statement
"It is just incomprehensible how those things [atrocities] came about...Every genius has the demon in him. You can't blame him [Hitler]--it is just in him...It is all very tragic. But at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that I tried to do something to end the war." (12/16/45)

Prosecution Points
Jackson called Hess "the engineer tending to the Party machinery." He maintained the organization as a ready and loyal instrument of power. He signed decrees persecuting Jews and was a willing participant in aggression against Austria, Czechoslavakia, and Poland.

Notable Points
During his detention following his failed putsch, Hitler dictated Mein Kampf to Hess...Hess mysteriously flew to England in 1941 in an attempt to end the war on his own terms. He stayed there until the war ended....Hess suffered from paranoid delusions, apathy, amnesia, and was diagnosed as having a "hysterical personality."

From this website, anyway, it seems that Hess was not viewed as responsible for orchestrating the Holocaust, but was found guilty for his association and support of the Nazi Party. Checking another website, after flying to Scotland in 1941 in an attempt to negotiate peace with the British, Hess was held prisoner and didn't return to Germany.

Of course, I don't really mean to compare Snape to Hess because, whatever he did as a Death Eater, it seems he compensated for it through service to the Order and to Dumbledore or Dumbledore would not have vouched for him twice (at the original council hearing and in the trial Harry sees in the Pensieve). My point was just that it wouldn't be historically unreasonable for a Death Eater to be tried on the basis of being a Death Eater, even if the organization wasn't illegal when the war started.

As for the point that Snape still being a Death Eater directly contradicts canon, that's why that charge will be so easy to defend! ;)

*feeling like I've stepped on the teeth of a rake and got a noseful of the handle*

Thanks, Subtle ! I guess that makes it clear that snape must have experienced a trial similar to Karkaroff's .

and...

Subtle Science
And--ah...okay. You didn't like the rune discussion, and now you don't like the costuming discussion. Hm

....its funny how you manage to do it , Subtle . You made it plain in that statement that if I don't find something interesting , all I need to do is to stay out of the thread until I find something that interests me surfacing again , and yet , the way you put it made me laugh ! It was really funny ! ( I can just picture you frowning with displeasure while you were writing that) .

I guess the reason I can't relate to it is that my reading and TV viewing is quite limited and everytime something non HP comes up , I'm lost !

But I got the message and I'll scram now !

Albie--You left out a key bit from what Crouch says--italics mine:

"Snape has been cleared by this council," said Crouch disdainfully. "He has been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore."
"No!" shouted Karkaroff, starining at the chains that bound him to the chair. "I assure you! Severus Snape is a Death Eater!"
Dumbledore had gotten to his feet.
"I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am" (pp. 590-591, GoF, US paper).
After reading about Harry's hearing in OotP, I now picture Snape's hearing as similar. Maybe Snape was there, but Dumbledore did alot of the talking. Harry had Mrs. Figg to vouch for him, too, so I wonder if someone else vouched for Snape? An interesting thought . . .
It seems an odd reaction, doesn't it...Dumbledore getting to his feet but then proceeding to calmly saying his peace...I understand that he doesn't want to yell, and that there is the understanding yelling wouldn't help, but the fact he felt impatient enough to get to his feet...i guess he really does respect and appreciate what Snape is doing for the order.
It's a very protective gesture, isn't it? I think the stakes were very high, and Dumbledore was certainly showing that he wasn't going to take any guff from the Council.
A very miscellanous post...forgive me! It's hard to compete with the minds of Subtle and Silver ink pot (or SIP as everyone affectionately knows you, which had me baffled for a while...i thought there was some random user who i couldn't see...i'm really quick as you can tell...)
Thanks for the compliment, oxymoron. I finally put "SIP" as an "alternate name" in my profile. I'm very fond of the nickname.:) But I realize folks have trouble knowing what it means, lol. Also, when people talk about my mind, it fascinates me, as my mind often reminds me of a train going up a steep hill with no fuel left. :lol: Without coffee, I'm not sure how coherent I would be, and I seem grammatically challenged at times. LOL. We are all sort of "disembodied" by the Internet, arent' we? Like those brains in the DoM, only we have a sense of humor and no tentacles ~ well, hopefully. :rofl:
silver ink pot--I'm stunned: what a blast from the past--I never thought anyone ever would have known about the Scarecrow; that enraptured me as a kid. As you can tell, my tastes have never changed! Give me the austere git who leads the double life.
I remember seeing the Scarecrow maybe twice as a kid, but I do remember playing Scarecrow at school recess, and talking about the show. It was in three installments on Sunday night's World of Disney. Recently a friend of my husband's recalled playing scarecrow, and pretending he had a black horse to ride. If the Disney people were smart (and, alas, they probably aren't) they would get Rickman to remake the Scarecrow!

Hey speak for yourself, my nana has to knit the wierdest jumpers to accomodate my tentacles...
Well i geuss your train has alot of residue kinetic energy then, because it's moving pretty efficently! And grammer? Who needs grammer, having uncoherent sentences just add that little extra spice to life, I mean there's always the chance someone will take a simple sentence, understand it in a totally different context, and that you will created a life long rift, never to be resolved, and future generations will carry the feud on, till it's in Romeo and Juliet proportions...you know, just adds that little extra spice!

As we see in the Karkaroff scene, Snape's being a death eater is already known, and it has gone to trial etc etc. But i wonder who brought to light Snape was a death eater? Karkaroff sounds like he is officially out of the fold (a minor understatment perhaps?) but so far that we know of, no one else's name has been mentioned by Sirius or anyone for being a traitor by giving names (such as pettigrew and karkaroff as Sirius heard in prison etc) so i wonder, who else gave names?(I am of course assuming Dumbledore wouldn't have gone so far as to walk into the ministry with his hands in the air and say "yes, looky here...Snape's a death eater, but he's not so we all good?" Especially with the prophesy and all, i think Dumbledore would already be considering at that point when Voldemort was going to return and of course with Voldemort's return, there is Snape's return to spying, which essentially requires secrecy...)so i wonder how he was found out?

silver ink pot--You ought to contact the Disney people and try to convince them (of course, these would be the people who wanted to fire Johnny Depp from Pirates of the Caribbean, so we may not be dealing with clear thinkers here).

It has just struck me how, when Dumbledore defends Snape in the books, he genrally does so quite simply. The only really evasive response I can think of is the one when he compares Snape and James to Draco and Harry...but that conversation wasn't quite on the level of his other comments, such as when he tells Harry plainly that the story behind his trust of Snape is between him and Snape, or his statement at the end of OotP: "I trust Severus Snape." And, of course, the Pensieve view. Each time, Dumbledore speaks calmly and to the point. An interesting little bit.

albie--I'm certainly not trying to chase you off. You can discuss whatever you like. But, by the same token, give a little of the same back. If you don't like what's being discussed, try introducing a new topic: simply telling the rest of us how boring you find our discussion isn't exactly endearing.

:) I like your attitude, oxymoron! :tu:

I know a lady who has some good "tentacle patterns":

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/addamsfamilysweatersmall2.jpg

From this website, anyway, it seems that Hess was not viewed as responsible for orchestrating the Holocaust, but was found guilty for his association and support of the Nazi Party. Checking another website, after flying to Scotland in 1941 in an attempt to negotiate peace with the British, Hess was held prisoner and didn't return to Germany.

Of course, I don't really mean to compare Snape to Hess because, whatever he did as a Death Eater, it seems he compensated for it through service to the Order and to Dumbledore or Dumbledore would not have vouched for him twice (at the original council hearing and in the trial Harry sees in the Pensieve). My point was just that it wouldn't be historically unreasonable for a Death Eater to be tried on the basis of being a Death Eater, even if the organization wasn't illegal when the war started.

As for the point that Snape still being a Death Eater directly contradicts canon, that's why that charge will be so easy to defend!
This whole idea reminds me strongly of the film "Judgement at Nuremburg," with Maximillian Schell defending the Nazi party members who say they were just "following orders" even though they knew the things they did were wrong. Maximillian Schell - now there is an actor who could have played Snape! But I digress as usual :angel: . . . the point of the movie was that even people who had always been "good" up till the war, did things they were ashamed about during the war. It's really the testimony of the victims that makes the movie so compelling, so my question about Snape is: who were his victims? And if he had any, why is he still accepted by the Order? :huh:

The charge of throwing Harry to the floor is the strongest one against him, absolutely. I know we've had debates on Deconstructing the Marauders about whether Snape was acting as a teacher or as a member of the Order during Occlumency lessons. Given that the lessons were at Hogwarts in a classroom (albeit a dungeon), then there shouldn't have been any violence going on. While I firmly believe that what Harry saw in the Pensieve made him feel worse than any harm from falling on the floor, I can see Snape getting in trouble for hurting him. Remember when Umbridge grabs Marietta in OotP, and Dumbledore gets angry? Well, Snape has crossed the same boundary line with Harry. Although I have to add, Dumbledore does forgive Umbridge, and even saves her life from the Centaurs.

the point of the movie was that even people who had always been "good" up till the war, did things they were ashamed about after the war. It's really the testimony of the victims that makes the movie so compelling, so my question about Snape is: who were his victims? And if he had any, why is he still accepted by the Order?

Good question. I think that as long as we don't know that there has been any direct victims, a court must assume that he has not killed/crucioed/etc anyone. Innocent until proven guilty. I think Snape's position is more comparable to those nazis who did not personally kill any jews, but who did other things - such as produce the Cyclone gas: If Snape was indeed VOldemort's cook, I mean potion maker, he would be in a similar position to those chemists who produced Cyclone gas, but claimed they didn't know the plan for it was a mass murder on jews.

I laughed so much at this:
We are all sort of "disembodied" by the Internet, arent' we? Like those brains in the DoM, only we have a sense of humor and no tentacles ~ well, hopefully. :rofl:
Hey speak for yourself, my nana has to knit the wierdest jumpers to accomodate my tentacles...
:rotfl: :rotfl:

Originally Posted by silver ink pot
We are all sort of "disembodied" by the Internet, arent' we? Like those brains in the DoM, only we have a sense of humor and no tentacles ~ well, hopefully. :rofl:

:rotfl: Apparently not quite without tentacles. :scared: Oh well, you certainly got the humour part right. :lol:

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil
My point was just that it wouldn't be historically unreasonable for a Death Eater to be tried on the basis of being a Death Eater, even if the organization wasn't illegal when the war started.

True, there's precedence for that, but those cases were based mainly on the activities of the accused, not on mere party membership, and while it's quite possible that Snape participated in criminal activities, there's not a shred of evidence (as yet; the question of victims is something I expect to be revealed in HBP, so that may change). In any case, 2. was not a charge that he had been a member of an illegal organisation, but that he had joined one. Sloppy prosecution work. Not that I'm going to help them or anything. :angel:

Originally Posted by oxymoron
Who needs grammer, having uncoherent sentences just add that little extra spice to life, I mean there's always the chance someone will take a simple sentence, understand it in a totally different context, and that you will created a life long rift, never to be resolved, and future generations will carry the feud on, till it's in Romeo and Juliet proportions...you know, just adds that little extra spice!

Ah, the joys of communication. :lol:

Originally Posted by silver ink pot
After reading about Harry's hearing in OotP, I now picture Snape's hearing as similar. Maybe Snape was there, but Dumbledore did alot of the talking. Harry had Mrs. Figg to vouch for him, too, so I wonder if someone else vouched for Snape? An interesting thought . . .

Mrs. Figg testified as a witness to the event in question though, not as a character witness. Would there have been any witnesses to Snape's decision to leave the Death Eaters? They would have had to witness an event which left no doubt as to his loyalties. Of course, if there were any such witnesses, hearing what they had to say should be interesting. Did you have anyone in mind?

Thank you for recommending the Appreciation thread, subtle. I'll try that next time my imagination runs away with me. (My boyfriend read part of the last page over my shoulder, by the way. His incredulous "Snape? Ick!" was a very credible imitation of Ron Weasley. :lol: )

Good question. I think that as long as we don't know that there has been any direct victims, a court must assume that he has not killed/crucioed/etc anyone. Innocent until proven guilty. I think Snape's position is more comparable to those nazis who did not personally kill any jews, but who did other things - such as produce the Cyclone gas: If Snape was indeed VOldemort's cook, I mean potion maker, he would be in a similar position to those chemists who produced Cyclone gas, but claimed they didn't know the plan for it was a mass murder on jews.
Yes, I can see that, definitely.
Mrs. Figg testified as a witness to the event in question though, not as a character witness. Would there have been any witnesses to Snape's decision to leave the Death Eaters? They would have had to witness an event which left no doubt as to his loyalties. Of course, if there were any such witnesses, hearing what they had to say should be interesting. Did you have anyone in mind?
The scenario I am imagining would be a situation in which people were about to be attacked and Snape warned them somehow - which could be the story of the Potters. Or someone saw him avert the DEs from people who were in danger. Anything that could be verified. It wouldn't have to be something Snape did that was good or brave, but perhaps what he kept others from doing. If he protected anyone, then I think Dumbledore wouldn't let him go to Azkaban. That would be in sharp contrast to his opinion of Sirius, which at the time was the Sirius had NOT protected anyone, and Dumbledore let him go directly to jail.

Alisel--Even the author seems to have a bit of the "Snape? Ick!" in her; she has no idea what she's created...I mean, in that sense.

There's JKR's comment about Snape's being able to see thestrals--having "seen death," I believe she said. Not necessarily that he's committed murder.

I really can't see there having been anyone else on Snape's side, but for Dumbledore. It seems an awfully big deal that Dumbledore threw the weight of his reputation behind Snape. I know I'm repeating myself (but I'm one of those older brains floating around), but Dumbledore did not do so for Sirius--whom he apparently had let off for the Willow Incident years ago. I find that to be extremely interesting....There's no indication that he spoke with Sirius, not that I recall...also interesting. Also interesting is the question of when Snape had his hearing/trial before the council (I still say that the charges are double jeopardy!) and was cleared....

ETA: Um... Yeah...what silver ink pot said..... Synchronized posting strikes again.

Snapes trial? I would think, just my opinion, of course, that no matter how great it is to have a spy for the Order, DD would never have vouched for Snape if he had killed anyone. Just don't see DD doing that. But, as Norbertha said, maybe he was doing other things, like making potions that other DEs could use in spells, stuff like that? I still think his turning point might have been at the point where he was told to kill someone? Or, maybe it happened after Godric's Hollow, when Snape realized that LV would not only kill adults, but innocent one year old children? Maybe that was Snapes turning point. We don't have any canon on When he turned and went to the council, do we? Was it before LV was vaporized or after? That could make a difference too.

I'm not sure what you saw in another thread, Severa78. Perhaps you were in the "Pureblood Supremacist Agenda" thread? Or perhaps i was completely Confounded, due to the late hour, and imagined things.. sorry :blush:
Mrs. Figg testified as a witness to the event in question though, not as a character witness. Would there have been any witnesses to Snape's decision to leave the Death Eaters? They would have had to witness an event which left no doubt as to his loyalties. Of course, if there were any such witnesses, hearing what they had to say should be interesting. Did you have anyone in mind?If there were witnesses to Snape leaving the DE, our dear Potion Master wouldn't be here. Trust Voldemort to find out and take care of him! So I'm more hopeful toward Subtle's idea (and SIP's: you girls shouldn't synchronize! ;p) that there are witnesses of some protection he's done.

And I'd love to be there with a "Free Snape" big sign! :rotfl:

And SIP, your sig should come with a drool warning! :drool:

Subtle, I dug out the quote:

He can see Thestrals, but in my imagination most of the older people at Hogwarts would be able to see them because, obviously, as you go through life you do lose people and understand what death is. But you must not forget that Snape was a Death Eater. He will have seen things that…

Seen things; no mention of anything he may have done himself. Not that I would expect her to volunteer that sort of information, but it's an interesting choice of words all the same.

Originally Posted by vickilind
Or, maybe it happened after Godric's Hollow, when Snape realized that LV would not only kill adults, but innocent one year old children? Maybe that was Snapes turning point. We don't have any canon on When he turned and went to the council, do we? Was it before LV was vaporized or after? That could make a difference too.

It would make a great deal of difference. :agree: I think we can rule out that he only switched sides after Godric's Hollow. Dumbledore himself said that:
However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk.

The only question (apart from the very persistent why, of course) is how long before that.

The scenario I am imagining would be a situation in which people were about to be attacked and Snape warned them somehow - which could be the story of the Potters. Or someone saw him avert the DEs from people who were in danger. Anything that could be verified. It wouldn't have to be something Snape did that was good or brave, but perhaps what he kept others from doing. If he protected anyone, then I think Dumbledore wouldn't let him go to Azkaban. That would be in sharp contrast to his opinion of Sirius, which at the time was the Sirius had NOT protected anyone, and Dumbledore let him go directly to jail.
I've always wondered what Lupin knows. He believes in Dumbledore and Snape. Does he believe in Snape because of Dumbledore? I doubt it's that easy. After all, Lupin wouldn't trust Dumbledore in PoA, so why take Dumbledore's word about Snape? It makes me wonder if there is something else that Lupin knows. Like the attack on the Potters and a possible warning? It makes sense that some people within the Order knew about Snape the spy and there was obviously some distance between James/Sirius and Lupin. Perhaps I'm way out in left field, but it is something that I've wondered about.

Thanks for the quote, Alisel. I remember it now! LOL

clkginny, I don't think that Remus didn't trust DD in PoA; the issue was that Remus was upset with himself for NOT telling DD about the Animagus thing. He didn't want to break the trust that DD had placed in him. That was his issue. But, I do think that Remus knows a lot. I think he is second only to DD in the Order, which makes me think he knows why DD trusts Snape and I also think he knows about the prophesy in full. JMO, for what it's worth.

I think any additional information Lupin might have about Snape is more likely to be related to their student days. Some people may have known about Snape's role as early as that, but with the knowledge that there was a traitor in the Order, and that this traitor was one of James's closest friends, Lupin would be among the last Snape and Dumbledore would want to know Snape's secrets.

Could it have something to do with the Whomping Willow incident, perhaps? A man's reaction when he quite unexpectedly comes face to face with a werewolf is bound to tell you something about him, and only James and Lupin witnessed that.

I don't think that Remus didn't trust DD in PoA; the issue was that Remus was upset with himself for NOT telling DD about the Animagus thing. He didn't want to break the trust that DD had placed in him.
Well, I think it depends on how you look at it. Lupin's lack of confidence in himself led him to feel that telling Dumbledore the truth would ruin his and Dumbledore's relationship. So IMO, Lupin didn't trust Dumbledore enough to tell him the truth. Just a difference in semantics. :-)

ETA: Could it have something to do with the Whomping Willow incident, perhaps? A man's reaction when he quite unexpectedly comes face to face with a werewolf is bound to tell you something about him, and only James and Lupin witnessed that.

I still leaves me wondering why Lupin trusted Snape. You have a good point about the spy being close to James, but everyone was pointing fingers and we know that Lupin often does things for the order that we don't see, and seems to be high up. When did that start? I'm not saying I'm right, I just think there is a few puzzle pieces missing here. Why did Lupin trust Snape?

Point taken, clkginny. I guess it does depend on ones POV. But if I understand you correctly, it's not about not trusting DD so much as it is about Remus's fear that it would ruin their relationship? Which seems moot, because DD knows now, and the two are still getting along. Man, that DD is really a trusting person isn't he?

Yes. I suppose you could say it is about Lupin's fear of rejection? ;-)

Subtle what do you think might be the basis for Lupin's trust of Snape in PoA?

topic was awhile ago, but when you were talking about Rickman's movies, did anyone mention Dogma?? Could anything be more Snapelike than an angel who gives sarcastic beatdowns and mouths off to God all the time?

Thanks for mentioning Mr. Rochester -- I've thought of him too, as well as various cold puritanical characters in black outfits.

Who SNape really reminds me of though is Dante. :huh:

I always figured that there had to be a certain amount of trust for Lupin to drink the wolfsbane potion.

There is something about their interactions during PoA that often gets overlooked with the Sirius plot, I think. A touch too formal, hidden meanings in their conversations, it makes it hard to get a bead on what they're thinking, especially given that they are the two most reserved characters in the books. I've often chalked up the attitude as a consequence of the WW incident. Now I'm not sure. I've read that scene in PoA several times, looking for hints of Sirius, but I'd never looked at Lupin that much in that scene. What you quoted, I'd missed the implications of that. I'd always felt that the WW incident would bother Lupin, possibly accounting for the apparent distance between James/Sirius and Lupin that led to Wormtail being chosen as secret-keeper. Now I'm not sure what to think. Aaah, everytime I have a comfortable theory, new evidence gets me.

Yes, that's the interesting part. I agree with subtle that Lupin didn't know about Snape's activities, for either side, during PoA. Yet he still trusted him. His basic attitude to Snape does not appear to have changed, except for his belief that Snape would listen to him now. Snape is the one who changes his mind about Lupin, not the other way around. For that to work out, what Lupin was told between PoA and OotP must have been compatible with what he already knew about Snape, or rather, about Snape's character. That's why I think that trust is based on his knowledge of Snape as a student. There's no hint of any interaction between them from they leave Hogwarts and Lupin returns there to teach.

ETA: You're too fast for me. Several new posts while I was typing.

That remark of Lupin's was rather unfortunate, though I'd still consider "he deserved it" by far the most chilling sentence in that scene. But the first thing Lupin says to Snape is actually ""Severus, you're making a mistake," said Lupin urgently. "You haven't heard everything -- I can explain -- Sirius is not here to kill Harry." I'd say it indicates a certain amount of faith in Snape's intentions and loyalties that he expects Snape to be concerned about Harry's safety.

....And his [Lupin] "You fool...Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?" (p. 359, PoA, US paper) is so easily taken as condescending--dismissive of what happened to Snape during school.

Actually, it strikes me only now how awful that line is of Lupin's--it has a powerful effect on how many people read Snape's character: the "schoolboy grudge." Lupin was, actually, a murder weapon...never mind SWM...and he just dismissed all of that as meaningless--the time honored 'just get over it' mentality at work. He really has no idea what he and the Marauders did to Snape; I'd always focused before on Sirius' complete and frighteningly icy lack of remorse for planning to kill Snape...but in this line, Lupin proves, he, too, is fairly clueless about the effects of bullying.YES! Especially when you consider that Snape is there that night trying to prevent the same thing happening AGAIN! Ah, yes! Love those rpeating situations JKR keeps throwing at us. During this scene everyone is focused first on Sirius as the danger, then relieved to find out that the kids are safe - that many don't realize that the kids are in the same possible situation as Snape was in the 'werewolf prank' I cannot believe that Remus (a normally sweet and apparently empathetic guy) would bring up THAT prank in the very SAME LOCATION that it happened, after stupidly leaving his wolfsbane potion undrunk on the desk.

Let's just think how brave that was of Snape to have gone to the dreaded Shack (I rather doubt he'd been back since the 'prank') knowing Lupin hadn't taken his potion and that the kids were likely to be killed by Sirius (in his mind - and ours too at the time, if we admit it) or ripped into by Remus. Such an exact juxtaposition to the whole 'werewolf prank'! And Remus then (to top it off) practically the first words out of Lupin's mouth are 'Fool' get over it it! while Snape's worried it's happening all over again.

Regarding Snape making the Wolfsbane Potion and whether Lupin should trust it. I cannot imagine Snape messing up on that potion. He knows it's the only reason Remus is 'safe' to be at the school - It's not like Remus is going out to the Shrieking Shack every full moon as he did the last time he was at Hogwarts. He's IN the castle. With all those kids.

From what we've seen of Snape's protective nature, I can't imagine him being obsessively certain that the potion was perfect. And for those who don't want to see Snape as a 'good' guy - I can't imagine he'd want to risk it even if Remus and he were the only two people in the entire castle.

And I can't believe that Remus who normally reads people pretty well, would NOT know enough of Snape's fear to realize he'd NEVER sabatoge that potion.

Edit to Add.............

Yes, synchronized posting as Olympic sport - :elaugh:
I really do like the idea that Remus has had a revelation about Snape. I think you're right about the difference in the way he acts about Snape. We really don't see much interaction between Lupin and Snape in bk5 to really judge this easily. I can't even remember a scene they were in together except possibly just after Harry arrives at #12 and he sees Snape surrounded by Order members. Can't wait to see how that works in bk6! I do find it quite interesting how we can see the development of one character (Snape) through changes in another (Lupin)

And I can't believe that Remus who normally reads people pretty well, would NOT know enough of Snape's fear to realize he'd NEVER sabatoge that potion.
But he appears to be oblivious (in PoA, anyway) of the affect of all that bullying the Marauders did. The problem is that Lupin reads people well when he isn't dealing with his own preconcieved notions. Otherwise, he would have trusted Dumbledore in PoA.

Subtle, I agree with you about the "I can explain" part; it's hardly surprising that Snape doesn't listen after that. However, that wasn't the part I was talking about. Yes, there has been changes in Lupin's attitude to Snape, but as you pointed out, these relate to Lupin's understanding of the Marauders' effect on Snape. What I'm arguing has remained the same is Lupin's view of Snape's character and values; his perception of what kind of person Snape is.

I think it's what Lupin thinks he perceives Snape's character to be. Preconceived notions again. I just don't see "I can explain" as a nod to Snape's character and values; to me, it speaks more to Lupin. At that moment, caught, he assumes Snape is going to listen to him--because Lupin knows he's right, not because he values Snape's willingness to listen. Lupin is really stuck in "me" mode in PoA.

A Lupin who really had complete, genuine respect for Snape would not have held the Boggart class. There are other ways to cater to Neville that do not entail mocking a fellow faculty member--but it doesn't matter to Lupin because he doesn't realize the effects of bullying on Snape (he seems to think he's got a good handle of its effects on Neville, but he doesn't finish the math and get a real insight). Nor would a Lupin with real insight speak as he did about the Map to Snape--again Lupin's on the kid's side and hasn't fully worked out the significance of this encounter.

I don't think that Remus didn't trust DD in PoA; the issue was that Remus was upset with himself for NOT telling DD about the Animagus thing. He didn't want to break the trust that DD had placed in him.
Well, I think it depends on how you look at it. Lupin's lack of confidence in himself led him to feel that telling Dumbledore the truth would ruin his and Dumbledore's relationship. So IMO, Lupin didn't trust Dumbledore enough to tell him the truth. Just a difference in semantics. :-)
Man, that DD is really a trusting person isn't he?
See, though, this is a big deal to me, though Lupin does seem truly sorry for everything. Yet he shows a major flaw by doing "what is easy" instead of "what is right."
Actually, it strikes me only now how awful that line is of Lupin's--it has a powerful effect on how many people read Snape's character: the "schoolboy grudge." Lupin was, actually, a murder weapon...never mind SWM...and he just dismissed all of that as meaningless--the time honored 'just get over it' mentality at work. He really has no idea what he and the Marauders did to Snape; I'd always focused before on Sirius' complete and frighteningly icy lack of remorse for planning to kill Snape...but in this line, Lupin proves, he, too, is fairly clueless about the effects of bullying.
That is, indeed, a very powerful line. What is ironic about it is that Sirius has a schoolboy grudge, too, which is evident every time he says "Snivellus," or makes some remark about a "greasy oddball." The grudges of schoolboys have long-lasting effects, as many here have pointed out.
Who SNape really reminds me of though is Dante
I like that comparison, and we've talked about it before on other threads. Dante with his nose and black robes and all, plus his connection to the underworld and death. I just realized something. Dante's love was "Beatrice," and that means "happy" from "Beatrix." Doesn't "Beatrix" seem alot like "Bellatrix"? I don't know what that means, but it's interesting. Bellatrix has a different meaning, of course: "female warrior."
That remark of Lupin's was rather unfortunate, though I'd still consider "he deserved it" by far the most chilling sentence in that scene. But the first thing Lupin says to Snape is actually ""Severus, you're making a mistake," said Lupin urgently. "You haven't heard everything -- I can explain -- Sirius is not here to kill Harry." I'd say it indicates a certain amount of faith in Snape's intentions and loyalties that he expects Snape to be concerned about Harry's safety.
Great point! :tu: Very perceptive!
Let's just think how brave that was of Snape to have gone to the dreaded Shack (I rather doubt he'd been back since the 'prank') knowing Lupin hadn't taken his potion and that the kids were likely to be killed by Sirius (in his mind - and ours too at the time, if we admit it) or ripped into by Remus. Such an exact juxtaposition to the whole 'werewolf prank'! And Remus then (to top it off) practically the first words out of Lupin's mouth are 'Fool' get over it it! while Snape's worried it's happening all over again.
Ugh - Snape might have imagined finding all three children ripped to shreds by the time he got there. He must have been surprised to hear Lupin's "confession" just as he got to the door.
Alisel--I find Lupin's "I can explain" to be equally clueless: he fails to realize that Snape just listened to him confess to his lying; he thinks he's going to get Snape to listen to his explanation now--when he's caught red-handed? In fact, I like this as a contrast to OotP, when he'll be the one, if anyone speaks to Snape--there's been a sea-change between them in the intervening time. In PoA, Lupin's assumption that he can explain and that Snape will, of course, listen to him comes from someone who hasn't the vaguest idea--about himself, about the Marauders, and about Snape. It's almost arrogant. By OotP, the similar claim sounds rational, a meeting of equals (in contrast there to Sirius' aggressive, negative pronouncement).
I agree. I don't think Lupin realized what "adult Snape" was all about until the Order got back together. Once again I'm sitting here wondering where Lupin was all those months during GoF. . . .
Regarding Snape making the Wolfsbane Potion and whether Lupin should trust it. I cannot imagine Snape messing up on that potion. He knows it's the only reason Remus is 'safe' to be at the school - It's not like Remus is going out to the Shrieking Shack every full moon as he did the last time he was at Hogwarts. He's IN the castle. With all those kids.

From what we've seen of Snape's protective nature, I can't imagine him being obsessively certain that the potion was perfect. And for those who don't want to see Snape as a 'good' guy - I can't imagine he'd want to risk it even if Remus and he were the only two people in the entire castle.

And I can't believe that Remus who normally reads people pretty well, would NOT know enough of Snape's fear to realize he'd NEVER sabatoge that potion.
And besides the obvious self-preservation of himself and the school, Snape has another good reason to make the potion correctly. If anything went wrong with Lupin, Snape would be the prime suspect! So if Harry thought about it, he'd realize that Snape wouldn't draw suspicion on himself by tampering with the potion.
And SIP, your sig should come with a drool warning
:evil: LOL

so my question about Snape is: who were his victims? And if he had any, why is he still accepted by the Order?This is a good question. Obviously, no victims have been identified as of yet; however, from a literary rather than a legal standpoint, why would an innocent man do what Snape does? Why must he be redeemed? He must have done something terrible.
The charge of throwing Harry to the floor is the strongest one against him, absolutely.Because we unamiguously know that happened. I'd think that his defense would be an extreme emotional disturbance (a term I learned from watching Law and Order :p ); however, he manages to do no further harm. He doesn't go on to beat Harry senseless, but recovers himself enough to order Harry away before he truly hurts Harry.
Remember when Umbridge grabs Marietta in OotP, and Dumbledore gets angry? Well, Snape has crossed the same boundary line with Harry. That's true, but the situation with Snape is quite different. Umbridge should only be feeling disappointment, possibly anger, but not humilitation and rage.
True, there's precedence for that, but those cases were based mainly on the activities of the accused, not on mere party membership, and while it's quite possible that Snape participated in criminal activities, there's not a shred of evidence (as yet; the question of victims is something I expect to be revealed in HBP, so that may change). But, the charges included activities that in themselves would not be criminal, if they'd been performed for a socially upstanding organization. I think to be responsible in that way, they would have to be party leaders, though, and we don't know Snape's position within the Death Eaters. I've always felt that he was important enough for Voldemort to have killed personally, if he'd known about Snape's spying, though.
I've always wondered what Lupin knows. He believes in Dumbledore and Snape. Does he believe in Snape because of Dumbledore? I doubt it's that easy. After all, Lupin wouldn't trust Dumbledore in PoA, so why take Dumbledore's word about Snape? It makes me wonder if there is something else that Lupin knows.I'm still not sure that Lupin didn't trust Dumbledore, so much as Lupin didn't want to face disappointing Dumbledore. Lupin never really indicates that he's concerned Dumbledore will refuse to help him in the future, does he? Even if it was a trust issue, though, as I pointed out in the "Molly Rude and Angry" discussion, there are many different levels of trust. Lupin may trust Dumbledore with everything that has to do with the Order, but not with a deep, personal secret.
Could it have something to do with the Whomping Willow incident, perhaps? A man's reaction when he quite unexpectedly comes face to face with a werewolf is bound to tell you something about him, and only James and Lupin witnessed that.The only problem with that is that Lupin would have been out of his mind and not known anything.
By the end of PoA, Snape re-loathes Lupin for lying to Dumbledore...yet things have apparently changed by OotP. :lol: This sentence just made me laugh. "Re-loathe!" My PA always dictates notes and invents all kinds of new words by putting "re-" in front of them. An example: "The patient will be re-seen in one month." In the dictations it drives me crazy because it doesn't sound professional as part of the medical record, but here it made me laugh! :p

More seriously, though, Snape loathed Lupin throughout PoA, didn't he? At the start-of-term feast, Harry notices Snape looking at Lupin with loathing. Throughout PoA, their interactions aren't easy. . .
Actually, it strikes me only now how awful that line is of Lupin's--it has a powerful effect on how many people read Snape's character: the "schoolboy grudge." Lupin was, actually, a murder weapon...never mind SWM...and he just dismissed all of that as meaningless--the time honored 'just get over it' mentality at work. He really has no idea what he and the Marauders did to Snape; I'd always focused before on Sirius' complete and frighteningly icy lack of remorse for planning to kill Snape...but in this line, Lupin proves, he, too, is fairly clueless about the effects of bullying.You're right. I'd never picked up on it before, either, but it's very dismissive of Snape's ordeal and its after effects.
What you quoted, I'd missed the implications of that. I'd always felt that the WW incident would bother Lupin, possibly accounting for the apparent distance between James/Sirius and Lupin that led to Wormtail being chosen as secret-keeper. Now I'm not sure what to think.I always believed the same. It could still work, though, if Lupin was more focused on himself, as the murder weapon and how he would have felt having murdered Snape, rather than on Snape, the potential victim.
But the first thing Lupin says to Snape is actually ""Severus, you're making a mistake," said Lupin urgently. "You haven't heard everything -- I can explain -- Sirius is not here to kill Harry." I'd say it indicates a certain amount of faith in Snape's intentions and loyalties that he expects Snape to be concerned about Harry's safety.I have to agree with this. The emphasis Lupin puts on Harry suggests that he believes that's all Snape cares about. That Snape also cares about revenge seems to be a surprise to him--more evidence that he underestimated their impact on Snape during school. It also suggests that he hadn't been reading Snape well at all during the school year because it shouldn't have come as a surprise to him. Snape isn't one to broadcast his emotions, but he also doesn't hide his bitterness and hatred.
I cannot believe that Remus (a normally sweet and apparently empathetic guy) would bring up THAT prank in the very SAME LOCATION that it happened, after stupidly leaving his wolfsbane potion undrunk on the desk.:rotfl:
Let's just think how brave that was of Snape to have gone to the dreaded Shack (I rather doubt he'd been back since the 'prank') knowing Lupin hadn't taken his potion and that the kids were likely to be killed by Sirius (in his mind - and ours too at the time, if we admit it) or ripped into by Remus. Such an exact juxtaposition to the whole 'werewolf prank'! And Remus then (to top it off) practically the first words out of Lupin's mouth are 'Fool' get over it it! while Snape's worried it's happening all over again.I think this isn't quite right. I just recently heard this section on the PoA CD. Snape only saw Lupin running down the tunnel because the kids, Sirius, and Peter were already in the SS, which doesn't show up on the map. Snape knew where the tunnel led because of his experience in school and, since he suspected Lupin of helping Sirius, he followed--probably thinking that he'd catch Lupin aiding Sirius. So, I think Snape's reasons for going there were really twofold: 1) for revenge through apprehending Sirius and Lupin 2) for vindication through proving Lupin was helping Sirius. It would also be fitting (although not necessary), then, that his revenge would take place in the location where he believes they had previously intended to murder him.

As for Snape being worried that they are all in danger from Lupin and that history was repeating itself, I'm not convinced. They must have all had a sense that it was early enough not to be concerned. None of them seem afraid of Lupin turning into a werewolf and no one suggests that Lupin go back to the castle to take the potion right away--it seems as if someone should have suggested that, if Lupin turning into a werewolf was their major concern. I'm not sure how much time there is between when Snape confronts Sirus & Lupin and when Lupin actually turns into a werewolf, but it seems like a while.

THanks for the notice, SIP. I don't connect Snape to Dante so much for the uncanny physical resemblance, or the connection to the underworld. My favorite parallel is between Virgil and Dubledore. Virgil is extremely helpful toward Dante, but not at all indulgent. Dante actively seeks redemption, but is hindered by flaws such as fear, anger, bitterness, judgment. The epic itself emphasizes that one finds it easier to condemn for a small crime than to forvive for a serious one. I could go on and on...

"There is no one so lost that the eternal love cannot return"
(somewhere near the beginning of Purgatorio)

the first thing Lupin says to Snape is actually ""Severus, you're making a mistake," said Lupin urgently. "You haven't heard everything -- I can explain -- Sirius is not here to kill Harry." I'd say it indicates a certain amount of faith in Snape's intentions and loyalties that he expects Snape to be concerned about Harry's safety.

I have to agree with this. The emphasis Lupin puts on Harry suggests that he believes that's all Snape cares about. That Snape also cares about revenge seems to be a surprise to him--more evidence that he underestimated their impact on Snape during school. It also suggests that he hadn't been reading Snape well at all during the school year because it shouldn't have come as a surprise to him. Snape isn't one to broadcast his emotions, but he also doesn't hide his bitterness and hatred.

i love this point. rereading the books i was quite shocked at Lupins lightheartedness when he had the boggard class or explaining the map. he was pretty much lying through his teeth and he knew Snape knew he was lying while he did it and i bet he found it hillarious the Snape could actually call him on it because Harry was right there. it isnt' untill he realises Snape is more interested in revenge than justace the the lightbulb goes off in his head.

i don't think i realised that Lupins view changed before now, thanks guys... when you think you've analysed it all there's always something new popping up :)

i'd just like to point out that when Snape went to the shack he wasn't expectig to find the trio there, they had already gone off the map.
i'd really like to know how much DD knew about Snapes schooldays. after the boggard you'd think he would've gone to Lupin and said it wasn't wise to tickle a sleeping dragon or as Harry put it, as safe as poking a sleeping dragon in the eye.

....Snape only saw Lupin running down the tunnel because the kids, Sirius, and Peter were already in the SS, which doesn't show up on the map. Snape knew where the tunnel led because of his experience in school and, since he suspected Lupin of helping Sirius, he followed--probably thinking that he'd catch Lupin aiding Sirius.....[cut]....Thanks for mentioning this. I'll need to go back and 're'read ('snicker' to all the 're's)
As for Snape being worried that they are all in danger from Lupin and that history was repeating itself, I'm not convinced. They must have all had a sense that it was early enough not to be concerned. None of them seem afraid of Lupin turning into a werewolf and no one suggests that Lupin go back to the castle to take the potion right away--it seems as if someone should have suggested that, if Lupin turning into a werewolf was their major concern. I'm not sure how much time there is between when Snape confronts Sirus & Lupin and when Lupin actually turns into a werewolf, but it seems like a while.Well the only indication we have of how long all this took was that DD told Hermione to use 3 turns on the timeturner and be back by midnight. So, that would mean they went back to 9:00 pm (2100) - it was the end of the year, so June/summer near the longest day of the year, but still I know here in the Pacific Northwest, it's full black night by 10:30 latest in June - even if Scotland is a bit further North (and please any Brits out there please correct me) shouldn't it be full dark by 11:00? And the moon would be out before 'full' dark wouldn't it? We need to adjust in time for the whole Buckbeak episode - can't imagine that would be under 45 mins. before Remus sees Peter's (along with Sirius') name pop-up at the whomping willow. Must run to follow, time for Snape to also follow, maybe another 15 mins or more. Leaving approx. 1 hour (or even a little less, by the time Snape removes the invisibility cloak) before Remus is due to change. I think that Remus was the one Snape 'tied-up' not Sirius, however I don't think that those bonds would have been enough to keep him 'tied-up' through a transformation. (wonder if Pertificus Totalis would have?) I really think they should have been more worried

*peeks in timidly* Is it safe now to jump into the discussion? I wanted to post earlier this day (compelling analyses of Lupin and of a possible Snape-trial!), but I'm not a fast poster, and the pace at which this thread was moving gave me quite the vertigo. :scared:

As for Snape being worried that they are all in danger from Lupin and that history was repeating itself, I'm not convinced. They must have all had a sense that it was early enough not to be concerned. None of them seem afraid of Lupin turning into a werewolf and no one suggests that Lupin go back to the castle to take the potion right away--it seems as if someone should have suggested that, if Lupin turning into a werewolf was their major concern. I'm not sure how much time there is between when Snape confronts Sirus & Lupin and when Lupin actually turns into a werewolf, but it seems like a while.

From what Snape said about his way from Lupin's office up to the Shack, it seems quite clear that he wasn't aware that any students were around - and even when he is in the Shack they seem rather a secondary concern to him, next to catching Lupin and Sirius red-handed (even though that concern sure shows through when he tells Hermione off and informs Harry that he might have ended just like his father). However, I've always wondered why he didn't take the forgotten potion along on the way.

Snape arrives in Lupin's office and sees the Map and the goblet with the undrunk Wolfsbane Potion on the desk of his colleague, who is having his "time of the month" (or was he bringing him the potion? I don't have the book at hand now). He notices Lupin's spot on the Map disappear under the Whomping Willow and surmises that he's about to help Sirius get in. And then he runs off to the Shack without taking any safety measures against the werewolf-to-be, not even taking the potion along?

Granted, he must have been in a rush to get his vengeance at last, but self-preservation alone should have prompted him to take some precautions. Just like preparing and not spoiling that tricky potion during all that school year, so that he wouldn't wake up one fine night with a werewolf sitting on his chest. And Snape, of all people, should have been aware of the threat a full-fledged werewolf poses. Didn't Phineas Nigellus say that Slytherins liked to save their own neck? :huh:

Sorry for just stepping into the conversation, and I haven't read the entire thread, so I also apologize in advance for repeating things...but it's all very illuminating. :)

I think that in regards to the PoA incident, Snape wasn't so worried about saving the children or stopping Lupin for the children's or the community's sake rather than for his own sake. I think that more than anything he desires recognition and praise for his deeds, followed by a chance to finally get the upper hand on a Marauder.

Lupin, on the other hand, sees Snape in PoA in the same light as he did when he was a child, in my opinion. Though he didn't necessarily want him to be hurt and humiliated, I believe he disliked him as much as the next person and that dislike, along with James and Sirius's influence over him, prevented him from ever stopping the abuse.

I think that Lupin did realize the effect of the bullying, but chose not to think about it or recognize it because of the guilt. I know that I tend to put things I've done from my mind, or tried to minimize them, in an effort to escape guilt.

The boggart class, I think, wasn't intended to be cruel to Snape, rather than a way to help Neville. I don't think he was thinking of Snape at all in that scene, either to antagonize him or to protect him.

Just a question - does anyone remember when/where Snape picked up the invisibility cloak? In my memory it was back near the whomping willow (not near the shack end of the tunnel). So even if Snape didn't see the kids on the map, he had a pretty good clue that Harry was out getting 'into trouble' (and so liable to be found by Lupin) once he'd found the cloak

Because we unamiguously know that happened. I'd think that his defense would be an extreme emotional disturbance (a term I learned from watching Law and Order ); however, he manages to do no further harm. He doesn't go on to beat Harry senseless, but recovers himself enough to order Harry away before he truly hurts Harry.
Law and Order: the perfect source for information, LOL.:)
That's true, but the situation with Snape is quite different. Umbridge should only be feeling disappointment, possibly anger, but not humilitation and rage.
That's true ~ for Snape it is much more personal, although for Umbridge there is the fact that Marietta is making her look stupid in front of Fudge.
THanks for the notice, SIP. I don't connect Snape to Dante so much for the uncanny physical resemblance, or the connection to the underworld. My favorite parallel is between Virgil and Dubledore. Virgil is extremely helpful toward Dante, but not at all indulgent. Dante actively seeks redemption, but is hindered by flaws such as fear, anger, bitterness, judgment. The epic itself emphasizes that one finds it easier to condemn for a small crime than to forvive for a serious one. I could go on and on...

"There is no one so lost that the eternal love cannot return"
(somewhere near the beginning of Purgatorio)
Wow, that is awesome! :tu: I've just got to read that again. It's been years. However I would encourage you to look at some of the paintings of Dante and Beatrice, especially by the Pre-Raphaelite painters. Dante Gabriel Rosetti did an entire series of Dante, maybe because they shared a name, lol. This link has some good examples, but certainly not the only paintings of Dante:
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/exhibitions/rossetti/works/Dante.asp
I actually went back to doublecheck--and, yet again, Snape is bringing Lupin the potion: "You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along" (p. 358, US paper)....Worse than Snape's not bringing it to the Shack (carrying it across the grounds in a rush would've been a bit tricky) is that Lupin "forgot"--that's a really, really big 'forget.' And I suppose Lupin was in a rush about what he saw on the Map--but he'd already forgotten the potion before that: it wasn't as if he was on his way down to the dungeon when he consulted the Map or something....Not good. Snape...I don't know; pure speculation: he didn't anticipate the capture of Sirius to turn into such a production? Maybe he hoped Lupin, once found out, would turn around and decide to do the right thing (that seems unlikely, given Snape's opinion of Lupin and Sirius)? Certainly he couldn't have been anticipating the stduents turning on him...?
I don't think he imagined that Harry and the others wouldn't listen to him, because Snape knows that the children know about Lupin being a werewolf. Even if Harry is belligerent, maybe he probably expects that Hermione and Ron would want to get out of the Shack as soon as possible.

I'll never understand why Lupin didn't take his potion before he even looked at the Map. How does just "conveniently forget"? :rolleyes:

I really think they should have been more worried
That's right! They all should have been. Sirius and Peter don't have to, but obviously everyone else is in trouble deep.

And I'd love to be there with a "Free Snape" big sign!
But you can come too, Severa! You can register for the conference at this web site: www.accio.org.uk

Free Snape!

What am I doing up at this hour anyway? :huh: Go to bed, Norbertha!

I'll never understand why Lupin didn't take his potion before he even looked at the Map. How does just "conveniently forget"?
There isn't any canon evidence that Lupin forgot to take his potion. Lupinsaid that he was looking at the map so that he could see if the Trio had gone to visit Hagrid. Obviously, he wouldn't know the exact time they went down so he wouldn't have wanted to risk rushing off to get the potion and missing them. He could have been watching the map for quite a long time. He probably thought that he could get the potion after he had looked at the map: not anticipating that Peter and Sirius would appear.

I don't think Snape brought the potion with him because he was in a hurry. He imagined that he would have the childrens' help and would be able to capture Black and Lupin quickly - if he hadn't been stunned, Snape would have been able to get them all back to the castle before Lupin had turned. He had a choice: bringing Lupin the potion and find the children dead; saving the children and risking Lupin turning. Afterall, if Sirius and Lupin had wanted to murder Harry they wouldn't have wasted time explaining what had happened; the children would have been dead before Snape got there.

Edit: Oops! Snape didn't know that the children were there; he only saw Lupin going to the shrieking Shack. Would it be possible to force Lupin to toake the potion? Becuase if Snape tried to capture him, I don't suppose he would take it willingly (assuming that Lupin was the accomplice to murder that Snape thought he was).

rust--If Lupin dislikes Snape, then why feel guilt? For example, Sirius feels no guilt whatsoever. Lupin seems to want to indicate to Snape, when Snape first delivers the Potion to him, that he doesn't dislike him.

Yes, that's true. I think that at that point Lupin wants to reconcile his old differences with Snape, but throughout PoA, I believe he is still held back by his prejudices toward Snape. I guess that he wants to create a more amiable relationship, but his old opinion of the Slytherin still remains in his subconcious, though they are now colleagues. I think Lupin must feel guilty because A.) his personality (or what we know of it), and B.) he knows it's wrong.

Earlier, I did say that Lupin intended the boggart lesson to help Neville--whom Lupin sees as a victim of Snape's bullying. Unfortunately, Lupin fails to complete the reasoning and realize what he's about to do, which is nopt going to be viewed by Snape as anything but typical Maruader behvior--and that's not a positive. Lupin also sides with the student over the Map, when he lies to Snape. Lupin, in PoA, just hasn't quite worked out the full extent of his actions and how they appear to others--specifically, to Snape. And what he says in the books indicates that he really didn't consider the lasting effects of bullying. Terribly ironic, when one considers his concern over Neville.

Yeah, you're right-- most likely, I think, Lupin sees Snape as the bully now. I don't know if he's trying to in some way indirectly atone for his previous actions by helping Neville, or if he's acting on the "instinct" engendered in his schoolboy days. Maybe it's a little bit of both; the reasons are both immature, and they are both a little passive-aggressive if you look at it in a certain way. Lupin doesn't seem to be actively violent or antagonizing in his actions, but I believe that he is instead likely to harbor dislike and distrust against people, although it seems to me that he wishes not to, as shown by his attempted reconciliation with Snape and by his eagerness to accept Sirius again.


I think it's Lupin who gives the impression that Snape is after recognition and praise--I've never understood why those become negatives when it's Snape who allegedly desires them. It isn't, for instance, when Neville responds to both...? But Lupin makes the comment at the end of PoA that Snape wanted the Order of Merlin...I don't see why it would be so terrible if he did; however, Snape never says so. And Lupin says it when Harry is asking about why he's resigned--when he's avoiding discussing the whole issue of how he lied to Dumbledore both in the past and for most of the school year. I wouldn't be surprised if Snape would want a bit of recognition; after all, he spies for the Order "at great personal risk" and cannot get any general acknowledgment of it--in fact, at school, he must maintain the persona of the hateful DE.

I don't think that wanting recognition is a bad thing. Rather, I think that it the driving force behind many of his actions, most of which are good. I do believe he cares for the wellbeing of the children and such, but his bitterness and resentment toward the remains of his childhood bane are so great that they impede these desires. I think he may have been a little blinded-- in SWM it becomes apparent that Snape never truly "won" against the Marauders, and uncovering them to be fakes could be a great inner desire.

We've definitely saw Snape transform from PS/SS to OOTP. He has changed from bitter potions master to a character that almost anyone can sympathise with. During his school days, he was kind of an outcast. The marauders(well, with the exception of wormtail) were sort of "the popular kids" you coul'd say. They weren't very nice to Snape in their school days. IMO It almost seems like Snape had feelings for Lilly when he was young. You can almost understand his anger and his siding with the DEs during the first war. It was his chance to get revenge on the people who tortured his childhood. Snape is not a heartless character, though. He has started to show this slowly throughout the books. I thin he will play a bigger role in books 6 and 7.

I think that Lupin does see Snape as a person that matters-- not necessarily as a person, you could say, but I do think he recognizes his importance in things, like with the Wolfsbane potion and in the Shrieking Shack. He doesn't ignore him, is what I'm trying to say, but he shows little recognition that Snape isn't the same person he was when he was younger, and through that shows little knowledge of the effects of his passive bullying. When I say I think he harbors dislike, I mean he is more likely to harbor negative feelings than act upon them outright.

Snape spent a lot of his time it seems fighting with the Marauders-- more specifically, James and Sirius. They fought with him, and likely started most of the fights, but Lupin, who found two people he could trust with his biggest secret in James and Sirius, would probably side with them, even if he knew deep down it was wrong. And that childhood bias could have carried on to his adulthood, especially with no contact (as we know) with Snape after school to change his views.

The more I think of it, the more I come to agree with you on the Snape and recognition/praise idea. Now I believe that he wishes to do the right thing (again, maybe to atone for his DE days?) and that he wishes to fufill his childhood wishes-- to beat his enemies once and for all, moreso if they are on the bad side now... two birds with one stone?

I agree with you fully Subtle, Lupin is quite immature in his actions regarding Snape throughout POA. The incident with the boggart, though not intended to spite Snape, it does 'get back' at something snape said towards Neville. Though in that scene it appears as though Remus is merely trying to help someone who has been put down, and repair their self esteem (and he did that admirably) but he did that already by just reassuring his faith in Neville's ability, and though he said something along the lines of Neville'll help with stage one, it was not at all necassary to ridicule Snape. He is, wether intentional or not, cutting Snapes legs from underneath him.

Have you noticed Snape is almost the antonym of Lochart? As Tolkein says, not all that's glitters is gold, Snape is a man that is willing to do the hard yards without any recognition, and we all know lockhart's achievments!!

I don't know if I would call Remus immature as much as thoughtless. It's almost like he views Severus as someone he must tolerate. He is polite, but that's about it. I do think that when the Order was called up at the end of GoF, Remus and Severus must have had a few opportunities (not many, though) to work out a more conciliatory (SP?) relationship. Obviously in Order Remus feels as if he could talk to Severus about the Occ lessons. I don't see him trying something like that in PoA. They must have some time to learn a bit more about one another and what each is doing for the Order. But I don't think immature is the word I would use.

I see where you are coming from vickilind and it definatley is thoughtless, but i think prehaps i consider it more immature because he doesn't seem to have or try to gauge snape's character well, or if at all. He thinks snape is this someone and acts according to that image he holds of him. He doesn't seem to try and act towards Snape like he is a grown man. He obviously thinks he got away entirely with the whole marauders map lie (i gather that from when he talks to Ron and Harry after he lies to Snape) insulting Snape incredibley in the process, but then when it comes to the shack he says as we have discussed you fool, is a school boy grudge worth sending an innocent man to prison for? Immediatley dismissing all of the years of taunting and bullying as 'school boy' as someone pointed out, ironic that he's willing to defend Neville so heartedly but then dismisses it as 'school boy'

hwyla, you could be right about the time Snape is in the SS being short. It's always difficult to judge time in Potterverse. And then he runs off to the Shack without taking any safety measures against the werewolf-to-be, not even taking the potion along?Maybe he didn't think the potion would be useful. The potion doesn't prevent Lupin from transforming, it only makes him keep his senses, or mind, as I think Lupin put it. From Snape's POV, Lupin would be dangerous either way--as a mindless werewolf or as a criminal werewolf who was aiding a murderer (Sirius). Perhaps he would even think it an advantage for Lupin to become mindless because, then, Lupin couldn't use his wits to defend himself against Snape. I still don't know how Snape would have restrained Lupin, though, because I don't think that the bonds he used on Lupin would be enough.
Worse than Snape's not bringing it to the Shack (carrying it across the grounds in a rush would've been a bit tricky) is that Lupin "forgot"--that's a really, really big 'forget.' And I suppose Lupin was in a rush about what he saw on the Map--but he'd already forgotten the potion before that: it wasn't as if he was on his way down to the dungeon when he consulted the Map or something....Not good. That's a good point. I agree with you that there is nothing to suggest Lupin would have remembered to get the potion from Snape--especially if the timeline is as short as hwyla suggests.
Just a question - does anyone remember when/where Snape picked up the invisibility cloak? In my memory it was back near the whomping willow (not near the shack end of the tunnel). So even if Snape didn't see the kids on the map, he had a pretty good clue that Harry was out getting 'into trouble' (and so liable to be found by Lupin) once he'd found the cloakThat's assuming that Snape knew it was Harry's invisibility cloak, though. He could have thought it belonged to Lupin or Sirius, couldn't he? Also, he has no proof that Harry had an invisibility cloak prior to that, although he may have suspected.
ETA: I fogot that I wanted to tag onto the idea that Snape could use his emotional distress in his defense...unfortunately, he could try--but it doesn't really matter. He laid hands on a student and threw him aside. That's a suspension pending investigation, which will result in dismissal.That would be true, if Snape taught at your school, but Hogwarts seems rather lax in that regard. ;) The question for the trial is whether or not Snape did anything illegal. It seems like the emotional disturbance defense would be perfectly reasonable in a criminal case, whereas the school might want to maintain a zero-tolerance policy, regardless of the circumstances. Theoretically, dismissal would be less serious than a criminal conviction.
We've definitely saw Snape transform from PS/SS to OOTP. He has changed from bitter potions master to a character that almost anyone can sympathise with.You might be surprised! :p

So . In the end , SUBTLE , you were right .This thread has forced me to return with the great stuff that has been going on for the last three pages . I'm sorry if I offended you earlier with my "thoughtless" and "immature" remarks ( to use two currently popular words ) .

Snape's crimes - So far , we have no evidence that Snape has ever murdered anyone .I agree with whoever said that they had a tough time imagining Dumbledore forgiving a murderer . But what if Snape had committed the murder for Dumbledore , or rather , for the good side ? I know Dumbledore , going by the person he is , would despise murder immaterial of the reasons and participants , but what if he realised that severus had had no other options at that time ? I think that is one possibility , Snape murdered someone on the Dark Side .The other one , of course , is that he never laid a finger on anyone , but was a spy for Voldemort , providing him with information that might have led to many deaths on the Good Side. The problem with this is , even in this case , I find it difficult to imagine Dumbledore forgiving him . But we know that Dumbledore did , right ? So what could have Snape done that made Dumbledore feel that he deserved a second chance ? I dont think it is just something great in magnitude as far as Dumbledore is concerned , it must have been something that affected Snape very strongly as well , something that should have taken immense strenght of character ,and something that could make Dumbledore see that Snape deserved that all-important second chance . SIP , I too had the idea that snape might have had something to do with the Potters' death ,i.e , he might have tried to prevent it , or something of that sort , but I am unable to form a theory that fits correctly .

Sirius and Dumbledore - I found it strange that Sirius was shoved into Azkaban and dumbledore had just stood watching it all happen . I wondered if Dumbledore really believed that Sirius might have been the spy . But then , maybe the reaaon he stayed quiet is that he never got a chance to really find out himself from Sirius about what had happened ? I cant understand that too . After all , DD was a member of the Wizengamot and could have interviewed Sirius one-on-one . It's also strange that he accepted Sirius' word so easily in PoA , even though he himself stated that Severus' account of events seemed far more plausible . I thought this was attributed to Legilimency , DD could see that Sirius wasn't lying . and when he said to Harry - " I do not have the power to make other men see the truth , or to overrule the Minister of Magic " , I saw it as a reference to the fact that DD could not prove anything conclusively to anyone else . Like the lie-detector test , a Legilimency account would be laughed out of a court of law , whether magical or muggle ! So maybe , maybe , DD did know of Sirius' innocence and Peter's treachery back then , but kept quiet for lack of evidence ? I know it sounds ludicrous , DD would not let an innocent man languish in Azkaban for 12 years , but he simply did not have the power to do otherwise . On the other hand , it explains why he so readily accepted Sirius' words in PoA , he had known it all along . Any help with this one ?

Forget it !! - I know what both Snape and Lupin did in PoA was irresponsible , they should not have forgotten the potion , but I find it understandable .after all , Lupin must have been shhocked to find a dead-for-12-years Peter re-surfacing on the Map . He wouldn;t have paused to think about potions at that time . Snape too , had just seen Lupin entering the Whomping Willowand must have believed that Lupin was doing what he had suspected all along . Here was his chance to destroy the remaining Marauders once and for all , was he going to pause to think about the potion at that time ? Doubt it . Revenge was foremost on his mind that night .

Remus and Severus-Subtle , I believe you are right in stating that Remus has grown from what he was in PoA to OOTP , and also that the relation between him and Snape has improved . But what about the reason for it ? I do not think it had anything to do with Snape's great secret that is known only to DD and snape himself . If it is something as big as that , would it not have altered Sirius' mind as well ? I agree , Sirius takes a very long time to change his perceptions of people , but if it had something to do with the Potters ( as SIP has said) , surely Sirius must have realised that Snape was a lot more than the Snivellus that he thought him to be ? Your thoughts on this ?

Remus and Neville - yeah , it is surprising that Remus shows such concern towards Neville's well being and growth , when he can be so ignorant of the effect the Marauders must have had on Snape as a kid , to make that statement in the SS . I love looking for possible parallels ( I think Norbertha will second that !) , so here's one more - Is this , in any way , similar to Sirius and Kreacher ? Remus knows that Neville is bullied and picked on by the other children and he knpws what a bad influence that it can have on him . so he does all that he can in th capacity of a teacher to help him . Yet , he knows what torment Snape has undergone as a teen , and still makes that " You fool....." statement . When it comes to something personal , Lupin too , did a Sirius , so to speak , not applying the logic that he did with Neville.The difference I can spot , at present , in the two cases ,is that Lupin was more fortunate of the two , he atleast had the time ( 2 years ) to change his mind about Severus , and that Sirius , tragically , did not . Your ideas , guys ?.......

Subtle - I hope that atleast the last bit has provided something for a further discussion . Again , my apologies .

Well, it seems to me that a trial would be premature, since a good many of the facts are not yet in evidence.

Morover it seems to me that by the time the facts are available (with the release of book 7) a trial may no longer be necessary - or may have taken place within the rather more 'official' context of the books themselves. ;)

But what if Snape had committed the murder for Dumbledore , or rather , for the good side ?

Is the scenario you have in mind, one where Snape sees that a fellow Death Eater is about to do something horrible, which he can't let happen (the fimal straw, the big eye opener), so he tries to stop it, which means that the other DE realises where his heart is - he's not a truly loyal DE willing to do anything - so the other DE turns on Snape instead, and Snape kills the only witness to his turn of heart in self defence?

(*Must get my next fanfic written soon! It's going to be called No Way Out. It's about when Snape left the Death Eaters - and Regulus didn't make it.*)


Anyway, I don't think Dumbledore would sanction any killings for the good side either, unless it was absolutely necessary in self defence. Remember how he says Harry did the right thing when he spared Peter's life.

I found it strange that Sirius was shoved into Azkaban and dumbledore had just stood watching it all happen

Yeah. :agree: I think the reason is what you quoted:

" I do not have the power to make other men see the truth , or to overrule the Minister of Magic "

I think Dumbledore might have had a gut feeling that there was something not right all along, but he couldn't put his finger on it. He had no choice but to obey the Ministry in this case, he didn't have enough evidence to prtest. All the evidence pointed to Sirius being guilty, after all. Dumbledore couldn't just go to Crouch (or whoever it was that put Sirius in prison) and say "listen, I have a feeling there is something wrong". He would have had to prove it. Only when Peter shows up after having pretended to be dead for 12 years, does he have proof that Sirius was innocent. That's why he's so quick to turn: He has had this gut feeling that there is a piece missing, though he didn't know what, for all these years.

Remember too that Sirius was not tried before the Wizengamot, he was just sent to prison without a real trial. Isn't that correct?

ah except i remember in POA, Harry and Herm's are telling DD how Sirius is innocent, and Dumbledore says something along the lines of, two words of thirteen year olds won't count for anything and neither will a werewolves, and then he says "i myself gave evidence against Sirius"
We know that Sirius didn't have a trial, so i wonder what this means. Did he give evidence unknowingly (something it would be difficult it seems for Dumbledore to do :)) such as saying "oh yeah you know Sirius was their secret keeper..."
I really wonder with Dumbledore sometimes.

Quote=subtle science]
ETA: I fogot that I wanted to tag onto the idea that Snape could use his emotional distress in his defense...unfortunately, he could try--but it doesn't really matter. He laid hands on a student and threw him aside. That's a suspension pending investigation, which will result in dismissal.
That would be true, if Snape taught at your school, but Hogwarts seems rather lax in that regard.
:p Yes, most muggle schools wouldn't allow blast ended skrewts on the grounds either, nor would they allow a boy to ride a flying hippogriff without permission. Isn't it funny that the students require permission from home just to visit a candy store in Hogsmeade, but they can fly around and transfigure themselves and others without permission, lol.
(*Must get my next fanfic written soon! It's going to be called No Way Out. It's about when Snape left the Death Eaters - and Regulus didn't make it.*)
Oooooooh ~ sounds good, Norbertha! Can't wait to read it!:)
ah except i remember in POA, Harry and Herm's are telling DD how Sirius is innocent, and Dumbledore says something along the lines of, two words of thirteen year olds won't count for anything and neither will a werewolves, and then he says "i myself gave evidence against Sirius"
We know that Sirius didn't have a trial, so i wonder what this means. Did he give evidence unknowingly (something it would be difficult it seems for Dumbledore to do ) such as saying "oh yeah you know Sirius was their secret keeper..."
I really wonder with Dumbledore sometimes.
As far as Dumbledore knew, Sirius was the Secret Keeper. That's all the information Sirius and the Potter's gave him. The plan about Peter was a secret even from Dumbledore, though as Head of the Order of the Phoenix, he obviously should have been told. No one ever suspected Peter because, first, who would expect the Potter's to choose someone with a reputation at being "hopeless at dueling" as a Secret Keeper? Second, Peter supposedly died along with all the Muggles in the street when Sirius supposedly blew them all up. The truth might have come out sooner if Dumbledore had known Peter was an animagus, but even then, without knowing the Secret Keeper switch, he couldn't give testimony in favor of Sirius.

Chievrefueil--It seems, though, that this whole trial thing overlooks the policies of Hogwarts; if that were the basis, then none of the charges would be brought. So, general school policies are dismissal for physical assault--actually, here in Florida public schools, a teacher can be dismissed for calling a student a name....Times have changed. . .I remember my teacher shoved me hard against the wall when I was in the first grade (for not paying attention where I was going and leaving footprints on an art project which was on the floor). I probably didn't think to report it, but it was in front of the whole class. She also called me "pokey-malokey" because I was usually the last to finish my in-class assignments.

It's true that the charges would not have been brought at all at Hogwarts. Still, I think the point of the mock trial is to debate Snape's character for fun. I don't see how that's different from this forum. When trying to entice people to participate, "mock trial" sounds more fun and interesting than "debate." I'm not sure why, but "debate" sounds more formal and boring. :huh: (Perhaps they should start calling the presidential candidate debates "mock trials" to entice more people to watch. :p )Legilimency can't necessarily 'tell' Dumbeldore the truth; as Snape explains, it's not mind reading. But Dumbledore could sense something's being a bit off. But that's not concrete evidence. And he lacks all of the information that could help him understand what's 'off'--because the Marauders never told him they were illlegal Animagi, and James and Sirius never told him about the Secret Keeper switch. Their fairly poor decisions end up having ramifications far beyond what they could have imagined. Yes, it would have taken a lot of effort from Dumbledore to find out what really happened. Of course, if Sirius was trying to save himself and had an opportunity to see Dumbledore before he was sent to Azkaban, he could have told Dumbledore everything and Dumbledore could have sensed it was true through Legilimency. I always assumed that Dumbledore never saw Sirius before he went to Azkaban--although that's kind of strange because it seems like, as the leader of the Order, Dumbledore would want to confront the one who betrayed them and ask why; but perhaps Dumbledore is too experienced to feel that he'd be satisfied with any explanation so he didn't bother.

Sorry, that was a bit rambling, but I have to get to work.

Times have changed. . .I remember my teacher shoved me hard against the wall when I was in the first grade (for not paying attention where I was going and leaving footprints on an art project which was on the floor). I probably didn't think to report it, but it was in front of the whole class. She also called me "pokey-malokey" because I was usually the last to finish my in-class assignments.

Yeah, my German teacher hit me on the cheek once, and then asked me to analyse the sentence "the teacher hit the student". :huh: He wasn't dismissed either, in fact, nothing happened. I was just a bit stunned, but replied "the teacher is the subject, hit is the verb, and the student is the object" without thinking about reporting it at all. I wonder what the rules are in Britain?
(Perhaps they should start calling the presidential candidate debates "mock trials" to entice more people to watch. )

:rotfl:

Weirdly enough, my first headmaster did use the cane (this was before it became phased out in Australia) - but it was the handle of a feather duster & I only saw him use it once - to a boy who I remember was being extremely defiant (2-3 hits to the backside I think it was). The next one who came in did not believe in corporal punishment, but he definitely was into all kinds of psycological stuff & sometimes he would spend half a lesson giving us sermons on what horrid people we were etc (he had personal life problems at the time, but I heard he had been reported for similar behaviour elsewhere). And I also went on to actually work for the school headed by the other teacher - we got on quite well too :cool: - not that I'm advocating that sort of thing, just that whatever the rules are it seems to come down to the person involved & making the decisions almost every time.

Getting back to Snape in overvew, it appears there there is a recurent theme with him, the theme of being shunted aside & not exactly treated with the best of loyalty - I can imagine that if he ever does "turn bad" (emphasise commas) again in future canon, it'd be more of a final lashing-out than anything else. Or at least to me anyway - there is only *so* far you can push a person (& the characters in this context I'm sure are intended to act as people ;) ), and he is someone who would snap most dangerously if he does ... much like what's hinted in his name: snapping off/severing ties.

(slightly harking back to the priests/costuming/lotsa buttons thing mentioned a while back in this thread - I had been thinking back over some of my other major fanhoods, & realised that two of my biggest (music) involved two artists who have both dressed in a similar way - and both have a bit of a preacherish stage presence as well. The two of them even dressed up as priests in a video they did together *g* - so I'd say there must be pattern in there somewhere :evil: )

ps - More gratuitousness (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/redrat/BindInBlack.jpg) - it's not quite Rickman!Snape ;) but I was doing some biro sketches & I liked the way I had him down, so went off to try it out in WinPaint.

He does want to capture Sirius. It just so happens that the Ministry wants the very man upon whom Snape would like to wreak vengeance; the two goals correspond. Snape is actually willing to kill Sirius on the spot--and it has nothing to do with Sirius' being a fugitive; it takes Snape quite a while to come to his senses (figuratively and literally!!) and realize he needs just to turn Sirius over to the authorities. He intends to get his revenge via the law. He is promised recognition by Fudge, and he seems happy about it, but it never materializes...and Snape never mentions it.

But think what would happen if Snape killed Sirius and everyone in the Potterverse knew about it? He would no longer have the possibility of hiding in Hogwarts acting as an 'awful DE', but would instantly become a hero. Also Voldemort wouldn't be glad about it as the Sirius hunt got all the attention instead of Voldemort's slow return to power--it would have been far more difficult for Voldemort to do anything without showing himself to the public.

I think Lupin's thoughtlessness is very much based in an immaturity: it's why he is thoughtless...or, at least, I'd prefer to give him the slack of being immature in his outlook, rather than being simply cold. He attempts to treat Snape as a colleague, but, underneath, he, too, is seeing Snape as Snivellus.

And what if this works the other way round too? Lupin saw throughout the school year that Severus acts normally, as an adult should, so why should Remus think that underneath Snape is still a person with problems with his psyche? Not to underestimate the impact of WW and SWM, but swouldn't more of us expect that under the circumstances in the Shrieking Shack Snape should be a bit more calm? I think that in this case it is (also) Severus who acts immaturely and thoughtlessly, out of revenge. I don't believe that Snape went into the Shack in order to protect anyone, but solely to catch Remus and Sirius red handed.

And also why should Remus see Severus as Snivellus? Lupin wasn't the one who used this name or actively sought Snape in order to bully him, so why should Lupin see Snivellus in Snape?

On the surface, helping Neville is good--but not the way he accomplishes it; it's not quite the way he should've gone about it. It worked for Neville, and very few people care in the slightest about the rest of it, including Lupin.

I'm not sure if the whole class was set in order to help Neville, because it was Lupin's first class with Harry and supposedly Remus didn't know anything about the students, or at least anything personal as Snape's bullying of Neville is. The boggart was used because it was recently found in the castle and it would be pity not to use it as a means of practice. Also the fact that Snape seems to wait for the class to tell Remus how awful Neville is, is the only way that Remus could know about the bullying, but it was too late to do anything about it. If Lupin really had wanted to humiliate Severus through the boggart class, then he would have told Neville to do the same things to the boggart!Snape as the Marauders did in SWM or on other occasions not known to us.

*runs away to the Lyceum to find more Lupin Defenders to back her*

I'm not sure if the whole class was set in order to help Neville, because it was Lupin's first class with Harry and supposedly Remus didn't know anything about the students, or at least anything personal as Snape's bullying of Neville is. The boggart was used because it was recently found in the castle and it would be pity not to use it as a means of practice. Also the fact that Snape seems to wait for the class to tell Remus how awful Neville is, is the only way that Remus could know about the bullying, but it was too late to do anything about it. If Lupin really had wanted to humiliate Severus through the boggart class, then he would have told Neville to do the same things to the boggart!Snape as the Marauders did in SWM or on other occasions not known to us.

*runs away to the Lyceum to find more Lupin Defenders to back her* :p
I'm also not sure what else Lupin could have done with Neville's boggart. You say, Subtle, that he could have gone about this another way. I'm curious as to what other way you have in mind? Neville's boggart is Snape. It's what he fears the most. How do you mitigate that kind of fear? It's very empowering to turn something terribly frightening into something funny. If Lupin had asked Neville to turn Snape into something neutral, but not funny - I'm not sure if the fear would have evaporated enough for Neville to defeat the boggart.

I'm also not sure what else Lupin could have done with Neville's boggart. You say, Subtle, that he could have gone about this another way. I'm curious as to what other way you have in mind? Neville's boggart is Snape. It's what he fears the most. How do you mitigate that kind of fear? It's very empowering to turn something terribly frightening into something funny. If Lupin had asked Neville to turn Snape into something neutral, but not funny - I'm not sure if the fear would have evaporated enough for Neville to defeat the boggart.
Pardon me for breaking in here, but Lupin didn't allow Harry or Hermione to face the boggart. I have no theory for why he excluded Hermione, but he excluded Harry due to his worries about what Harry's boggart might be. This indicates that he didn't...do his homework on the class. This is something that has bothered me for a while. Why didn't he figure out what these kids were scared of? Once the lesson was engaged, Lupin had limited choices in how to deal with Neville's boggart. Knowing Neville's history, he could just as easily been most scared of Voldemort, as well. This seems to be poor planning on his part.

McPherson--I don't understand the point about Snape's being calmer in the Shack; I'm not following that.

I just meant that Lupin spoke to Severus as most people would do towards emotionally grown up people (please, don't understand this as overlooking the whole dreadfull bullying thing) because he thought that Snape would react differently, ie in his "school bat" way--maybe not cooly, but not berserk.


Please don't tell me that your ending comment means that we're going to have another incident similar to the one that happened over in Decon--when a discussion of the character of Lupin was perceived as an attack on him and therefore he had to be defended and the entire discussion deteriorated into very antagonistic arguing.

Oh no, I'm sorry you interpreted this in such a way: I just wanted to add something not so serious that would lessen the possible tension. It was also ment as a friendly request to the people who have similar views on the matter to post. I don't want an argument here, please trust me. Once again I apologise for any misunderstanding I caused.

Pardon me for breaking in here, but Lupin didn't allow Harry or Hermione to face the boggart. I have no theory for why he excluded Hermione, but he excluded Harry due to his worries about what Harry's boggart might be. This indicates that he didn't...do his homework on the class. This is something that has bothered me for a while. Why didn't he figure out what these kids were scared of? Once the lesson was engaged, Lupin had limited choices in how to deal with Neville's boggart. Knowing Neville's history, he could just as easily been most scared of Voldemort, as well. This seems to be poor planning on his part.How can anyone predict what someone's greatest fear will be? Lupin doesn't know Neville fears Snape the most until he tells him (which he asks for, only because Neville is the first and is the example for the other kids and how to fight the boggart). Lupin can guess that Harry will think of Voldemort because he knows all about Harry. Is Lupin to be expected to know all about every one of the other students?

I don't believe that Snape went into the Shack in order to protect anyone, but solely to catch Remus and Sirius red handed.This is exactly what Snape did, he only saw Remus going to the Shreiking Shack, the tunnel leads off grounds so whatever/whomever was in the Shack didn't appear on the Marauder's Map.I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight.

Once Snape had reached the Shack under the cover of the Invisibility cloak, he stopped and listened...to all of Remus explanation of the Marauder's time at Hogwarts. He then stepped forward and revealed himself. What he'd overheard did not appear to matter to him, revenge was his motive, to turn two of nemesis over to the Dementors his reward.

As for why Severus didn't kill Sirius outright while he, Harry, and Hermione were unconcsious, it's because I believe even Snape is above outright killing; he proved it by restraining himself in the Shack, and I think it's one of the reasons he turned spy for the Order. I don't necessarily think that Snape is a terrible individual, just not a very likable one.

Neville's boggart...how was Lupin to know what Neville's boggart was, when he didn't even know what Harry's boggart was...true, he did assume that Harry's boggart was LV--but he was wrong. Once being made aware of Neville's greatest fear he gave his student knowledge and confidence in handling the task he'd been given. I can remember having to give my first speech, my teacher told me "Just imagine the audience is naked." It helped...imagine if Lupin had said this to Neville---I think it would have frightened Neville even more myself. He could have said dangle him by his feet and show his underpants....He could have said put the head of Snape as the head of a donkey...but he didn't. I think Remus did an excellent job with his class and this lesson.

How can anyone predict what someone's greatest fear will be? Lupin doesn't know Neville fears Snape the most until he tells him (which he asks for, only because Neville is the first and is the example for the other kids and how to fight the boggart). Lupin can guess that Harry will think of Voldemort because he knows all about Harry. Is Lupin to be expected to know all about every one of the other students?
Most people know what their greatest fear is (Neville knows his is Snape, Ron knows his is spiders [I know mine is Mrs. Weasley's]). Granted, that is most and not all, but it would have given Lupin something to go on. Considering that this batch of students were born during VW I he should have done a little checking to make sure he didn't end up with a DE or Voldemort on his hands.

Most people know what their greatest fear is (Neville knows his is Snape, Ron knows his is spiders [I know mine is Mrs. Weasley's]). Granted, that is most and not all, but it would have given Lupin something to go on. Considering that this batch of students were born during VW I he should have done a little checking to make sure he didn't end up with a DE or Voldemort on his hands.I'm sorry, but I guess I just have to disagree with you. Lupin's job here is to teach the students how to reach within and 'disarm' their own fears. He only gives Neville guidance as the first student example. He doesn't tell Ron to take the spiders legs off, etc. I don't really think it should have been necessary for Lupin to inquire of each student what their greatest fear was before the very first class. I don't think that was necessary to the lesson. This is getting a bit off topic, now isn't it? *looks around worriedly* :sad:

I think Lupin's thoughtlessness is very much based in an immaturity: it's why he is thoughtless...or, at least, I'd prefer to give him the slack of being immature in his outlook, rather than being simply cold. He attempts to treat Snape as a colleague, but, underneath, he, too, is seeing Snape as Snivellus

But did Snape give Lupin a reason to see him in diffrent light? Lupin came to Hogwart after 15 years and what did he see? The same Snape- bitter, angry, nasty teenager in the body of 33 years old man who still perceives him as a monster and now enjoys bullying and humiliating his young students. What is to respect? Not much really. Later in "OOTP" when it occured to him that Snape is a spy risking his life for Order- that's a diffrent case- this is the man he can respect. Altought after Snape' show in Shriecking Shack and the fact he is the reason Remus lost his job- it is still a wonder that Lupin even bears his presence.
But as I said- Lupin is Lupin :cool:
Really if we called him immature...what are we gonna to do with Snape and Sirius?!! ;)

Actually, it strikes me only now how awful that line is of Lupin's--it has a powerful effect on how many people read Snape's character: the "schoolboy grudge." Lupin was, actually, a murder weapon...never mind SWM...and he just dismissed all of that as meaningless--the time honored 'just get over it' mentality at work. He really has no idea what he and the Marauders did to Snape; I'd always focused before on Sirius' complete and frighteningly icy lack of remorse for planning to kill Snape...but in this line, Lupin proves, he, too, is fairly clueless about the effects of bullying.You're right, this line was probably not the best thing for Lupin to say, but I certainly feel Lupin's frustration. He is correct- Snape is willing to tune out the truth over a "schoolboy grudge", and no matter how founded that grudge is, it doesn't excuse Snape's turning a deaf ear to the truth just to get revenge on Sirius.

I always figured that there had to be a certain amount of trust for Lupin to drink the wolfsbane potion. I agree.

That remark of Lupin's was rather unfortunate, though I'd still consider "he deserved it" by far the most chilling sentence in that scene. But the first thing Lupin says to Snape is actually ""Severus, you're making a mistake," said Lupin urgently. "You haven't heard everything -- I can explain -- Sirius is not here to kill Harry." I'd say it indicates a certain amount of faith in Snape's intentions and loyalties that he expects Snape to be concerned about Harry's safety.I agree with this as well.

In PoA, Lupin's assumption that he can explain and that Snape will, of course, listen to him comes from someone who hasn't the vaguest idea--about himself, about the Marauders, and about Snape. It's almost arrogant. By OotP, the similar claim sounds rational, a meeting of equals (in contrast there to Sirius' aggressive, negative pronouncement).I don't think Lupin really stops to think about the past because this is urgent- not necessarily because he thinks Snape will listen to him, or because he doesn't realize the impact of the Marauders' bullying. This is a life or worse than death situation, actually- if Snape doesn't listen to him an innocent man will meet a terrible fate, and a guilty wizard would go free without even proving to Harry the truth. Lupin insists to Snape to let him explain out sheer urgency and importance of the situation.

I just don't see "I can explain" as a nod to Snape's character and values; to me, it speaks more to Lupin. At that moment, caught, he assumes Snape is going to listen to him--because Lupin knows he's right, not because he values Snape's willingness to listen. Lupin is really stuck in "me" mode in PoA.Lupin speaks urgently here for the benefit of all who are present, not because he himself is worried about himself. His words reflect the fact that this is very important- that this affects both Harry and Sirius- and he has to get Snape to see that. But Snape just doesn't want to listen or let him explain.

As for Snape being worried that they are all in danger from Lupin and that history was repeating itself, I'm not convinced.I'm not either. Snape's intentions here seem to focus on rewards for himself: "Vengeance is very sweet," Snape breathed at Black. "How I hoped I would be the one to catch you...." Snape explains how he saw the Map and how he used it ane the Cloak to his advantage in order to be the one to apprehend Black. If he'd really been concerned about Lupin turning into a werewolf, he'd have brought the goblet of potion with him to the Shack. Come to think of it, why did he leave it on Lupin's desk? :huh:

If Lupin really had wanted to humiliate Severus through the boggart class, then he would have told Neville to do the same things to the boggart!Snape as the Marauders did in SWM or on other occasions not known to us.Indeed.

Lupin may or may not have used the nickname--he certainly is overly emphatic about calling Snape "Severus" when Snape delivers the Wolfsbane Potion to him. That seems to indicate that he wanted to make a point to Snape that he was not going to use 'that name' anymore. I disagree, the use of Snape's first name indicates Lupin's respect and politeness, which is more than I can say for Snape's addressing Lupin by his last name only. As a collegue, they should be expected to address each other with civility, which Lupin does by using Snape's first name.

Once the lesson was engaged, Lupin had limited choices in how to deal with Neville's boggart. Knowing Neville's history, he could just as easily been most scared of Voldemort, as well. This seems to be poor planning on his part.I'd say starting with Neville- the only other person besides Harry who would really be expected to fear Voldemort in such a tangible way - was excellent planning on Lupin's part. By asking Neville what he feared most, he was then able to know that Neville's boggart wouldn't turn into Voldemort. I think it's unreasonable to think Lupin was expected to know what each kid was afraid of, but he made a very logical guess as to what Harry's boggart would be, even if he was wrong about it.
Really if we called him immature...what are we gonna to do with Snape and Sirius?!!Good point. :cool:

(slightly harking back to the priests/costuming/lotsa buttons thing mentioned a while back in this thread - I had been thinking back over some of my other major fanhoods, & realised that two of my biggest (music) involved two artists who have both dressed in a similar way - and both have a bit of a preacherish stage presence as well. The two of them even dressed up as priests in a video they did together *g* - so I'd say there must be pattern in there somewhere :evil: )I had a real wild thought about those pants with buttons...You think Snape started wearing them after SWM just so no one could ever expose his undies (or maybe lack of if they really did strip him) ever again?? 'snicker!' heeHee

I had a thought about SWM after reading a bit on the Celtic Myths thread. This is really Norse myth, but I'm beginning to connect the upside-down hex with Odin hanging upside-down on Ydrasgil (sp?) tree (also shades of the hanged man in tarot, but I don't really have any knowledge about tarot to go on with that). The whole point of Odin hanging upside-down was to gain wisdon (perhaps it's about a new perspective). The pensieve dive certainly gives Harry a new perspective about both Snape and James, unfortunately it has now been forceably forgotten with Harry's grief and anger in the forefront. But I'm beginning to think the upside-down part is also a clue about why this is Snape's worst memory.

We've discussed the idea before that it might be his 'worst' because it was the beginning of his descent into the dark. And I've spoken about how awful the 'he exists' comment was. But, symbolically he is hanging upside-down when the remark is made - I think this symbolizes an epiphany to Severus that people really do question his right to even exist.

I think it easily plays on the idea that as a probably at least 'emotionally' abused child I can see him having a parent who yelled 'you should never have been born'. We have that memory of the couple 'arguing' while totally ignoring a crying child, as if invisible or non-existant. Add in this upside-down prank and we have a good-sized crowd that didn't seem to disagree with James' 'exists' comment. We can even continue this with the idea that after this 'epiphany' (while hung upside-down) the spell is let go and he comes 'crashing down to earth', etc. continue memory. This question as to whether he should even have the right to his own existence is only intensified later by the werewolf prank and his belief that they were trying to murder him.

Anyway, just a thought that maybe the way he was positioned in the prank memory is important - perhaps it's when he realizes (sees a different perspective) what the masses think about him

I disagree, the use of Snape's first name indicates Lupin's respect and politeness, which is more than I can say for Snape's addressing Lupin by his last name only. As a collegue, they should be expected to address each other with civility, which Lupin does by using Snape's first name.

:agree: The staff at Hogwarts address each other in this way, so why shoudn't Remus say 'Severus' as well?

"Headmaster?" It was Snape. Harry kept quite still, listening hard. "The whole of the third floor has been searched. He's not there. And Filch has done the dungeons; nothing there either."
"What about the Astronomy tower? Professor Trelawney's room? The Owlery?"
"All searched."
"Very well, Severus. I didn't really expect Black to linger."
(PoA)

"But where is dear Professor Lupin?"
"I'm afraid the poor fellow is ill again," said Dumbledore, indicating that everybody should start serving themselves. "Most unfortunate that it should happen on Christmas Day."
"But surely you already knew that, Sibyll?" said Professor McGonagall, her eyebrows raised.
Professor Trelawney gave Professor McGonagall a very cold look.
"Certainly I knew, Minerva, 11 she said quietly. "But one does not parade the fact that one is All- Knowing. I frequently act as though I am not possessed of the Inner Eye, so as not to make others nervous."
(PoA)

I agree with clkginny.

Snape uses everybody's last names, with single episode exceptions of Draco and Igor. He occasionally uses titles. His mode of address is formal and, in many cases, distancing. The use of first names is informal and implies closeness. Lupin's use of "Severus" is clearly meant well; Snape simply replies with his usual formality.

And Snape and Sirius are immature. I never said they weren't. Unfortunately, I posted ideas about Lupin because I had been reading about him again; I posted before I considered where this discussion would go. I apologize to the Lupin fans. I'm more than willing to go back and delete the posts.

ETA: Having stopped by the Shrieking Shack thread and discovered the degree of anger my ideas have caused, I have gone ahead and eliminated all of my recent posts. Please let me know if I've missed one.

If he'd really been concerned about Lupin turning into a werewolf, he'd have brought the goblet of potion with him to the Shack. Come to think of it, why did he leave it on Lupin's desk? :huh:I think that´s rather logical. It´s a cauldron not a hip flask! He was running after Lupin. He pauses in the shack but then the situation is not out of hand and noone tries to murder anyone. Before he got there he was in a hurry.
Btw I think he really wanted to catch Lupin and Sirius red handed but he also was aware that it was about saving Harry Potter´s life, as evidenced in the Marauder´s map scene.

I had a real wild thought about those pants with buttons...You think Snape started wearing them after SWM just so no one could ever expose his undies (or maybe lack of if they really did strip him) ever again?? Nothing against the movie costumes but doesn´t Snape just wear black (and sometimes green) robes in canon? Actually the scene with Filch after Fluffy bit him made me think that he doesn´t wear trousers. It´s the wizard way to wear robes. We all heard Archie(?) at the world cup, didn´t we? And Snape is a very old fashioned wizard. He wears a nightshirt!

The staff at Hogwarts address each other in this way, so why shoudn't Remus say 'Severus' as well?It´s normal but Lupin does overemphasise it/say it a little to often. It´s either teasing or an effort to make peace with Snape.
I think it´s both, if that makes any sense to anyone.


Erm... and there is no rule not to criticise Lupin on this board. Let´s stay sensible.

Nothing against the movie costumes but doesn´t Snape just wear black (and sometimes green) robes in canon? Actually the scene with Filch after Fluffy bit him made me think that he doesn´t wear trousers. It´s the wizard way to wear robes. We all heard Archie(?) at the world cup, didn´t we? And Snape is a very old fashioned wizard. He wears a nightshirt!Yes, you're right - my little quip about the heavily buttoned pants in response to the SWM incident was meant to be a joke - sorry, I thought I put a 'snicker' after it.

This post is a little off-topic, but here goes.

I generally feel that cosforums is a great place with interesting discussions. The members are generally polite, even to those who express different views. I am wondering about that opinion, of late.

These are literary characters. They aren't real. To hurt someone else's feelings, or allow your own to be hurt by comments about fictional characters is going to far. Everytime certain characters are discussed, this happens.

Bashing someone because they have a different opinion about a character than you do is awful. I like both Snape and Sirius and I have seen them both analyzed, positively and negatively. I state my opinion, others disagree, life goes on.

All these characters have flaws, that is why we enjoy reading about them. Why is seeing flaws in Lupin a bad thing, and not seeing a flaw that others might in Snape bad? So what?

I must say that I am disappointed in some posters that I had a higher opinion of. Can we perhaps go back to the discussion at hand without worry that someone will be offended?

This post is a little off-topic, but here goes.

I generally feel that cosforums is a great place with interesting discussions. The members are generally polite, even to those who express different views. I am wondering about that opinion, of late.

These are literary characters. They aren't real. To hurt someone else's feelings, or allow your own to be hurt by comments about fictional characters is going to far. Everytime certain characters are discussed, this happens.

Bashing someone because they have a different opinion about a character than you do is awful. I like both Snape and Sirius and I have seen them both analyzed, positively and negatively. I state my opinion, others disagree, life goes on.

All these characters have flaws, that is why we enjoy reading about them. Why is seeing flaws in Lupin a bad thing, and not seeing a flaw that others might in Snape bad? So what?

I must say that I am disappointed in some posters that I had a higher opinion of. Can we perhaps go back to the discussion at hand without worry that someone will be offended?
I agree clkginny. It would be incredible if a single one of the characters didn't have faults. Even Dumbledore, who is often compared to a deity, makes mistakes. If the characters didn't make mistakes then no one would like them. The character with the least faults is Cedric; I don't see many Cedric fans here. :evil:

(I hope everyone will excuse me this one time for posting something which added absolutely nothing to the discussion.)

You're right, this line was probably not the best thing for Lupin to say, but I certainly feel Lupin's frustration. He is correct- Snape is willing to tune out the truth over a "schoolboy grudge", and no matter how founded that grudge is, it doesn't excuse Snape's turning a deaf ear to the truth just to get revenge on Sirius.

Hmmmm, but this isn't the entire picture either. Sirius is believed by the wizarding community, including Snape, to be a notorius mass murderer. A very clever, traitorous mass murderer. And Snape believes that his suspicion has been confirmed that Lupin is in league with his old friend. He's just caught them together in their old "haunt". Under those conditions, how smart would it have been to believe anything that Lupin said?

Certainly Fudge didn't have a schoolboy grudge against Sirius, and yet he wasn't open to hearing the truth either. Only Dumbledore took the time to listen and consider what was really going on, but even he recognized that without further proof at hand, few would buy it.

So I don't think you can say that Snape wouldn't listen solely to get revenge on Sirius, but because from his point of view, Sirius and Lupin were a very dangerous two-act.

I think that´s rather logical. It´s a cauldron not a hip flask!Well, he says it's a "gobletful", so perhaps there was a liability that it would spill. I guess the point I was trying to make was that Snape wasn't really as concerned with Lupin transforming as he was with catching Sirius and Lupin in the act. But I definitely see your point. :tu:

Hmmmm, but this isn't the entire picture either. Sirius is believed by the wizarding community, including Snape, to be a notorius mass murderer. A very clever, traitorous mass murderer.
So I don't think you can say that Snape wouldn't listen solely to get revenge on Sirius, but because from his point of view, Sirius and Lupin were a very dangerous two-act.Yes, this is a good point. I really should give Snape credit for the fact that he truly believed that Lupin and Sirius were dangerous with probable cause, given the fact that Sirius was thought to be a mass-murderer. You're right that Sirius is indeed very clever, having been able to escape not one but two searches at the castle, and so he and Lupin could conceivably be trying to trick Snape and the trio. So in the end, part of Snape's not wanting to listen comes from the fact that he wants to be the one to catch Lupin and Black, but the other part comes from the fact that the two of them really could be in league and trying to trick everyone present.

I agree clkginny and Wandering_Bard- it is unrealistic to imagine that every single character didn't have something they could improve upon, somethings that they shouldn't have said or shouldn't have done. As has been mentioned many times, the Shrieking Shack Scene is a low point for all who are present. Snape wants revenge, Lupin is thoughtless and forgetful, Sirius and Lupin want to murder Peter, Sirius is impulsive, and Harry wants to murder Sirius. I could go on, but you get the idea.

Also, I offer everyone Chocolate Frogs and Pumpkin Pasties. :)

Yes, you're right - my little quip about the heavily buttoned pants in response to the SWM incident was meant to be a joke - sorry, I thought I put a 'snicker' after it.I realised the part with the SWM was a joke, don´t worry. You just talked about his pants and I started thinking if he has some. Always on the mission to keep Snape´s image pure and unadultered from fandom and movies. :)

Also, I offer everyone Chocolate Frogs and Pumpkin Pasties. :)
*Greedily takes a Chocolate frog* (The idea of pumpkin as a food has never appealed to me :blush:)

Well, he says it's a "gobletful", so perhaps there was a liability that it would spill. I guess the point I was trying to make was that Snape wasn't really as concerned with Lupin transforming as he was with catching Sirius and Lupin in the act. But I definitely see your point.
I don't think Snape had any reason to take the potion with him. If he thought that Lupin was Sirius's accomplice, why would he want to give him the potion? As a previous poster said (I don't remember who) a mindless werewolf would be far less dangerous than one which was controlled by Lupin, the murderer's accomplice. The wolfsbane potion would only protect people from harm if the wizard did not want to cause it.

Wow! I see I missed all the excitement today! :rolleyes:

I also don't see any reason posters should be offended by another's opinion. I'm sorry that subtle deleted her posts before I had a chance to read them because her ideas are usually quite interesting.

So, that said, I have some comments. Hopefully, I won't open the whole can of worms all over again!
He does want to capture Sirius. It just so happens that the Ministry wants the very man upon whom Snape would like to wreak vengeance; the two goals correspond. Snape is actually willing to kill Sirius on the spot--and it has nothing to do with Sirius' being a fugitive; it takes Snape quite a while to come to his senses (figuratively and literally!!) and realize he needs just to turn Sirius over to the authorities. He intends to get his revenge via the law. He is promised recognition by Fudge, and he seems happy about it, but it never materializes...and Snape never mentions it.But think what would happen if Snape killed Sirius and everyone in the Potterverse knew about it? He would no longer have the possibility of hiding in Hogwarts acting as an 'awful DE', but would instantly become a hero. Also Voldemort wouldn't be glad about it as the Sirius hunt got all the attention instead of Voldemort's slow return to power--it would have been far more difficult for VoldemortI'm not sure I understand your disagreement with what subtle said--wouldn't your view reinforce what subtle said about Snape believing other things are more important than recognition?And also why should Remus see Severus as Snivellus? Lupin wasn't the one who used this name or actively sought Snape in order to bully him, so why should Lupin see Snivellus in Snape?I'm not sure if it matters whether or not Lupin ever used the name, "Snivellus," or instigated bullying against Snape. As one of the Marauders, Lupin would have been a part of the group that viewed Snape in a certain way. Having viewed Snape in that way, even if he didn't feel that the teasing/bullying was right, it would be very difficult for Lupin not to still view Snape that way as an adult--especially if Snape never opened up to him in a friendly way as an adult, which I think we can safely assume never happened.
Pardon me for breaking in here, but Lupin didn't allow Harry or Hermione to face the boggart. I have no theory for why he excluded Hermione, but he excluded Harry due to his worries about what Harry's boggart might be. This indicates that he didn't...do his homework on the class. This is something that has bothered me for a while. Why didn't he figure out what these kids were scared of? Once the lesson was engaged, Lupin had limited choices in how to deal with Neville's boggart. Knowing Neville's history, he could just as easily been most scared of Voldemort, as well. This seems to be poor planning on his part.I think Lupin really trapped himself in a corner with this one. He probably didn't know what Neville's boggart was before Neville told him (I'm 99.999999% sure); however, he'd already committed Neville to be the one to demonstrate boggart defense to the class because of Snape's remark. The way he responded to Snape, though, implies that he had already planned to use Neville to demonstrate boggart defense beforehand. Snape very well could have believed Lupin planned it. It would have been much better overall for Lupin to have picked another student to demonstrate boggart defense. That way Neville could have thought of how to make Snape funny on his own and Lupin would not have been as involved.

Even if it's not reasonable for Lupin to have found out everyone's boggart ahead of time, it makes sense that he would have asked a few to find out who would have an appropriate boggart for demonstration prior to class. I do find it somewhat sloppy, the way it was handled (as funny as it was). Once Snape had reached the Shack under the cover of the Invisibility cloak, he stopped and listened...to all of Remus explanation of the Marauder's time at Hogwarts. He then stepped forward and revealed himself. What he'd overheard did not appear to matter to him, revenge was his motive, to turn two of nemesis over to the Dementors his reward.Why would any of what he heard matter to him, though? He already knew all of it, but the fact that James, Sirius and Peter were animagi. Lupin's revealation at that point only serves to add disloyalty to Dumbledore and dishonesty to the list of bad character traits Snape already believes the Marauders possessed. I don't see anything in what Lupin said that Snape heard that should give Snape pause.
As for why Severus didn't kill Sirius outright while he, Harry, and Hermione were unconcsious, it's because I believe even Snape is above outright killing; he proved it by restraining himself in the Shack, and I think it's one of the reasons he turned spy for the Order. I don't necessarily think that Snape is a terrible individual, just not a very likable one. I agree with this.
But did Snape give Lupin a reason to see him in diffrent light? Lupin came to Hogwart after 15 years and what did he see? The same Snape- bitter, angry, nasty teenager in the body of 33 years old man who still perceives him as a monster and now enjoys bullying and humiliating his young students. How do you know that Snape was a bitter, angry, nasty teenager? Snape is under quite a bit of duress in SWM, so I don't think one can judge by that event. James & Sirius come out of SWM looking much worse than Snape.
He is correct- Snape is willing to tune out the truth over a "schoolboy grudge", and no matter how founded that grudge is, it doesn't excuse Snape's turning a deaf ear to the truth just to get revenge on Sirius.Aside from what TheBlackAdder said, I think this response points to the same problem Lupin himself is having. As you say, it's founded, but what if Snape sees it as an integral part of who he is? To Snape it wouldn't be just a grudge, but something much bigger. That's what Lupin fails to see. Lupin thinks of it as only a grudge when it's really much bigger.
"But where is dear Professor Lupin?"
"I'm afraid the poor fellow is ill again," said Dumbledore, indicating that everybody should start serving themselves. "Most unfortunate that it should happen on Christmas Day."
"But surely you already knew that, Sibyll?" said Professor McGonagall, her eyebrows raised.
Professor Trelawney gave Professor McGonagall a very cold look.
"Certainly I knew, Minerva, 11 she said quietly. "But one does not parade the fact that one is All- Knowing. I frequently act as though I am not possessed of the Inner Eye, so as not to make others nervous."
(PoA)I know this wasn't your purpose in posting this passage, but it just struck me how funny this is. Not only is McGonagall making a swipe at Trelawney's divination skills, but she's also stating what should be the incredibly obvious. All the staff already know that Lupin is a werewolf, so of course Trelawney should know exactly where Lupin is even without divination! :lol:
As a previous poster said (I don't remember who) a mindless werewolf would be far less dangerous than one which was controlled by Lupin, the murderer's accomplice. That was me! :)

Yes, this is a good point. I really should give Snape credit for the fact that he truly believed that Lupin and Sirius were dangerous with probable cause, given the fact that Sirius was thought to be a mass-murderer. You're right that Sirius is indeed very clever, having been able to escape not one but two searches at the castle, and so he and Lupin could conceivably be trying to trick Snape and the trio. So in the end, part of Snape's not wanting to listen comes from the fact that he wants to be the one to catch Lupin and Black, but the other part comes from the fact that the two of them really could be in league and trying to trick everyone present.
I made the point on Decon once that had Sirius truly been trying to kill Harry, and had Snape listened to what they saying, allowing Sirius a chance to harm Harry, and Harry had been harmed, he would be crucified by the fans. If you look at what Snape knew, not what Harry knew, and Snape acted in the best interest of the children. Did he stand to gain? Yes. Would he enjoy the moment of revenge? Undoubtably.

Snape's entire character is built around deception and disinformation (that needed by the story and that deliberatly included by JK) and we have to dig through that looking for the real character. None of us know if we are right, we are just trying to figure it out. I don't know if my opinions are right, I'm just trying to figure it out. That doesn't mean I think Snape is an angel, or that Lupin is the devil. I'm just trying to analyze what I've read.

How do you know that Snape was a bitter, angry, nasty teenager? Snape is under quite a bit of duress in SWM, so I don't think one can judge by that event. James & Sirius come out of SWM looking much worse than Snape. I agree, I don't think Snape was a nasty teenager either- and he certainly had a right to be angry about what the Marauders did to him. And even if Snape didn't give Lupin any reason to respect him (which I don't believe is true, because Snape made the wolfsbane potion despite the fact that he clearly didn't want to, which is an action very worthy of respect), this doesn't mean Lupin shouldn't treat him respectfully since they are both collegues. Both men should give the other the benefit of the doubt as grown adults- Snape for being a former Death Eater and Lupin for being a Marauder. I do think that both men do still hold preconceived notions about the other, but Snape isn't as good as hiding his disdain for Lupin.

Aside from what TheBlackAdder said, I think this response points to the same problem Lupin himself is having. As you say, it's founded, but what if Snape sees it as an integral part of who he is? To Snape it wouldn't be just a grudge, but something much bigger. That's what Lupin fails to see. Lupin thinks of it as only a grudge when it's really much bigger.I definitely think Lupin's calling Snape a fool was not the best way to handle the situation- the comment was pretty harsh and it does to a degree underestimate the impact the Marauders bullying had on Snape. But I think Lupin expects that as an adult, he'd be able to move past the past, so to speak. I can definitely see how this is a lack of thought and consideration on Lupin's part though- his expectation of Snape shows (as I think someone said earlier) that he doesn't really understand Snape's character very well (just like me at times- sometimes I feel I have no idea about some of Snape's motives, but I think it's good to analyze them, whether they're good or bad). It's also as I mentioned before the fact that there's a sense of urgency in the matter and that it is a life and death situation for many people present. That's why I think Lupin says the comment about Snape being a fool- it's not excusable, but it's understandable given the circumstances.

It's also as I mentioned before the fact that there's a sense of urgency in the matter and that it is a life and death situation for many people present. That's why I think Lupin says the comment about Snape being a fool- it's not excusable, but it's understandable given the circumstances.Actually, I think it may be both excusable and understandable, given the circumstances. I'm not being judgmental--it's just that the comment also demonstrates Lupin's lack of understanding for what the Marauders did to Snape. He might realize under normal circumstances, rather than these extraordinary circumstances, that he shouldn't say something like that, but if he really understood Snape he would never have said such a thing under any circumstance.

And, as someone else mentioned, if someone like Fudge who didn't have Snape's baggage refused to listen to Sirius, why is it any more reasonable to think that Snape should have listened to Sirus or his accomplice, Lupin? (I know you didn't suggest Snape was unreasonable for not listening--I just wanted to agree with whoever said this. :) )

Wow! I see I missed all the excitement today!

I also don't see any reason posters should be offended by another's opinion. I'm sorry that subtle deleted her posts before I had a chance to read them because her ideas are usually quite interesting.
So, that said, I have some comments. Hopefully, I won't open the whole can of worms all over again!

That's exactly what I was going to say too, Chiev! :lol: There has been some really interesting discussion going on while I've been sleeping. I don't wish to attack Lupin, he is generally a wonderful person, so please don't interpret anything I say as an attack on anyone, I just anjoy the discussion, that's all.

It's a shame that you deleted your posts, Subtle. I wondered why I couldn't find all those interesting points that the others were quoting. But I fully understand that you don't want to be blamed for having caused an argument, like what happened at Decon...



But think what would happen if Snape killed Sirius and everyone in the Potterverse knew about it? He would no longer have the possibility of hiding in Hogwarts acting as an 'awful DE', but would instantly become a hero. Also Voldemort wouldn't be glad about it as the Sirius hunt got all the attention instead of Voldemort's slow return to power--it would have been far more difficult for Voldemort to do anything without showing himself to the public.
I don't quite understand this ... If Snape had killed Sirius on the spot, he would have been a hero both for Vodlemort and for the Ministry and the wizarding world in general. Voldemort knew Sirius wasn't a Death Eater, and that Peter was the traitor, who came and told him he had been made Secret Keeper. So Voldemort knows Sirius is on Dumbledore's side, and has been all along. Voldemort must also suspect that Sirius has figured out what Peter did. So Voldemort would want Sirius dead anyway, since he knows too much, and could be a dangerous weapon for Dumbledore's side. The good side, on the other hand, want Sirius dead too, because they believe he's a mass murderer and a Death Eater. (In a way, Sirius is in the exact opposite position of Snape, if Snape is indeed pretending to Voldemort that he's a double agent. Sirius is a "double negative": The good side thinks he's working for the dark side, while the dark side knows he's working for the good side ...) Anyway, the point is, if Snape had killed Sirius, he would have been cheered by both the Ministry and by the Dark Side. So why didn't he do it? It must have been because he is no murderer. He either believes killing is wrong under any circumstance, even if he was very tempted, or else he's like Harry: He wanted to, but he couldn't bring himself to do it. So he chose to turn him over to the authorities instead, knowing that Sirius would probably receive the Kiss. (Only it didn't work out).

Originally Posted by subtle science
I think Lupin's thoughtlessness is very much based in an immaturity: it's why he is thoughtless...or, at least, I'd prefer to give him the slack of being immature in his outlook, rather than being simply cold. He attempts to treat Snape as a colleague, but, underneath, he, too, is seeing Snape as Snivellus.

Yes, just like people who know about it, see Snape as an ex-Death Eater. Even though they know he's not a Death Eater anymore, there is always this label, ex-DE, that just won't come off (to paraphase FakeMoody...). He's an ex-DE and an ex-victim.
I don't believe that Snape went into the Shack in order to protect anyone, but solely to catch Remus and Sirius red handed.

Why the "but"? I see no contradiction. As Snape sees it, Remus is a werewolf who once almost killed him while Sirius is the murderer who set Remus up to kill him, and later murdered one of his best friends and 12 other people. To catch them is to protect people.

But I agree with you that he probably wanted to catch them red handed for more selfish reasons, too: If it's true that he spied on them when he was a teenager, trying to get them expelled, the Shack scene in PoA could be a mirror of that. I think when he was a teenager, he was so desperate, so angry, that it was either get them expelled, or -- this is probably inappropriate for this forum --- kill himself. So when Lupin and Sirius turn up again 20 years later, and start to cause trouble again, it stirs up a lot of mud in Snape ... Which is what I read into the lines that RLF quoted:
"Vengeance is very sweet," Snape breathed at Black. "How I hoped I would be the one to catch you...."


[I know mine is Mrs. Weasley's]). :wow:


If Lupin really had wanted to humiliate Severus through the boggart class, then he would have told Neville to do the same things to the boggart!Snape as the Marauders did in SWM or on other occasions not known to us.
Indeed.

Theoretically, though, the Marauders could have transfigured Snape's clothes into girl's clothes in a bullying episode in the past.

The whole pants thing also has to do with clothes - er, or more with lack of clothes .. this argument didn't work out very well, did it .. :lol:
I had a real wild thought about those pants with buttons...You think Snape started wearing them after SWM just so no one could ever expose his undies (or maybe lack of if they really did strip him) ever again?? 'snicker!' heeHee
:lol: :tu:

I think this symbolizes an epiphany to Severus that people really do question his right to even exist.

I think it easily plays on the idea that as a probably at least 'emotionally' abused child I can see him having a parent who yelled 'you should never have been born'.

*shudder* :scared: You are so right, Hwyla.

what if Snape sees it as an integral part of who he is? To Snape it wouldn't be just a grudge, but something much bigger. That's what Lupin fails to see. Lupin thinks of it as only a grudge when it's really much bigger.

:agree: Thank you for saying this, Chiev.

...what if Snape sees it as an integral part of who he is? To Snape it wouldn't be just a grudge, but something much bigger. That's what Lupin fails to see. Lupin thinks of it as only a grudge when it's really much bigger.This is not exactly Snape, however I think it's a hint regarding the bullying of Snape and the 'he exists' comment. And how the 'bullies' are not seen as bullies, but pranksters.

The Weasley Twins (who most of us clearly wouldn't want to think of as bullies, but instead 'pranksters') shove Slytherin Montague into a 'Vanishing' cabinet rather than let him take points or whatever. I don't remember exactly why they did this at the moment (I'll need to look it up), but doesn't that remind you of the 'Snape was always following the marauders around trying to get them in trouble' excuse?

Did the twins know a REAL Vanishing Cabinet wouldn't literally 'vanish' someone? Smacks of 'wiping out someone's existence'. Fortunately Montague was sent elsewhere (kind of like a trick muggle magician one), but he was gone for days and ended up in a toilet. A further hint to connect this incident with SWM - Snape left Harry alone with his pensieve because Montague had finally shown up. I haven't come up with any significance on why Montague reappeared in a toilet connected to Snape, but toilets are a reoccuring theme.

Anyway, back to Chievrefueil's comment on the difference between the way Lupin and Sirius think of the werewolf prank and Snape's opinion. We even have Sirius' comment about Snape following them to get them in trouble and he deserved it (need to check on Twins' comments about Montague, but the Gryffies certainly seemed to think he did). We all know Snape thinks it was attempted murder

Before all this recent nonsense, thestralgrin posted a link to a drawing she had done--it got.....um.....overlooked, shall we say, in the...fray. Anyway. It's a very well done piece of work and shouldn't get lost in the shuffle. Check out post #878. I'll repeat myself, since the original had to go in the purge:

Good job, thestralgrin!

Here is Thestralgrin's Picture. Very nice!

I like his eyes, especially.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/redrat/BindInBlack.jpg

But I fully understand that you don't want to be blamed for having caused an argument, like what happened at Decon...Yes, subtle is very good about that--I'm very bad and never worry about arguing. :lol: :rolleyes:
He either believes killing is wrong under any circumstance, even if he was very tempted, or else he's like Harry: He wanted to, but he couldn't bring himself to do it. So he chose to turn him over to the authorities instead, knowing that Sirius would probably receive the Kiss. (Only it didn't work out).I think a third option is that he would do it if he needed to--"give me a reason"--but he wouldn't do it in cold blood. Whether or not Harry would kill someone with an urgent reason remains to be seen.

The other thing I wanted to comment about was Snape's reaction to Sirius not receiving the kiss at the end of PoA. As some of you may remember me mentioning, I've been listening to PoA on CD. I recently listened to the part in the hospital wing just after Sirius is captured, but before the time-turner is used. It seemed to me that Snape was primarily concerned with Dumbledore believing him, not Sirius's punishment. Of course, the two are tied together, but I thought Snape's emphasis was more on wanting Dumbledore to back him than on wanting Sirius kissed.
This is not exactly Snape, however I think it's a hint regarding the bullying of Snape and the 'he exists' comment. And how the 'bullies' are not seen as bullies, but pranksters.I'm not sure what you mean--your example with the twins is not exactly Snape? We discussed the twins and Montague as a parallel to the Marauders and Snape quite a bit in the "Decon" thread several months ago. The twins knew that Montague would vanish and turn up at some point somewhere else--as I recall, they'd hoped it would be weeks later. You're right that what the twins did to Montague was bullying, perhaps not very different from the Marauders bullying Snape, and they are rather nasty about it--showing no remorse and not caring what happens to Montague.

I'm also not certain about all the toilet references, but there are quite a few. It seems to me that all of them represent some type of humiliation. Dudley tries to make Harry stand in a toilet. Moaning Myrtle hides in the toilet when she is feeling despair or humiliation because of her social interactions. Montague turned up in the toilet, which adds insult to the injury of having been "vanished" in the first place. Are there other toilet references that I missed? The kids make the polyjuice potion on the toilet, but I think that location has more to do with being a device for them to interact with Moaning Myrtle (and to be assured of no interference) than it does with actually brewing a potion on the toilet.
Here is Thestralgrin's Picture. Very nice!Yes, it's very good! Yesterday when I first saw it, it reminded me of someone from a movie, but now I can't figure out who. (It wasn't Snape--that's too obvious.) Thanks for posting it again SIP--it's interesting to see right next to the Snape in your signature. Even though it doesn't really look like Alan Rickman, there's something about both pictures that is reminscent of the other. Why is Snape's skin in the drawing grey, though? Is that "sallow?" I'd always pictured "sallow" as more yellowed.

ETA: No, wait, I think it reminded me of a rock star--someone from the Rolling Stones? :huh: I'm not sure. :rolleyes:

I'm also not certain about all the toilet references, but there are quite a few. It seems to me that all of them represent some type of humiliation. Dudley tries to make Harry stand in a toilet. Moaning Myrtle hides in the toilet when she is feeling despair or humiliation because of her social interactions. Montague turned up in the toilet, which adds insult to the injury of having been "vanished" in the first place. Are there other toilet references that I missed? The kids make the polyjuice potion on the toilet, but I think that location has more to do with being a device for them to interact with Moaning Myrtle (and to be assured of no interference) than it does with actually brewing a potion on the toilet.
In Book One, the twins make a joke about blowing up a toilet the first time we see the Weasleys at the train station. Molly says that she better not get a letter saying they had blown up a toilet, and the twins say "good idea, Mum!" Then at the end of the Book, Dumbledore tells Harry in the hospital that the twins tried to send him a toilet seat. :lol:
Yes, it's very good! Yesterday when I first saw it, it reminded me of someone from a movie, but now I can't figure out who. (It wasn't Snape--that's too obvious.) Thanks for posting it again SIP--it's interesting to see right next to the Snape in your signature. Even though it doesn't really look like Alan Rickman, there's something about both pictures that is reminscent of the other. Why is Snape's skin in the drawing grey, though? Is that "sallow?" I'd always pictured "sallow" as more yellowed.

ETA: No, wait, I think it reminded me of a rock star--someone from the Rolling Stones? I'm not sure.

I looked up "sallow" and it actually has more meanings than I thought! I thought it just meant "yellow," but it can also mean "dark or dusky."

It has the same root word as "willow," isn't that weird? "Salix" is the genus for willow. Of course, "Salix" is also the source for "aspirin," salicylic acid, which I'm sure you already know, Chiev.

I'm obsessive about word origins, so here is "sallow":

sallow (n.)
"shrubby willow plant," O.E. sealh (Anglian salh), from P.Gmc. *salhjon (cf. O.N. selja, O.H.G. salaha, and first element in Ger. compound Salweide), fro PIE *sal(i)k- "willow" (cf. L. salix "willow," M.Ir. sail, Welsh helygen, Breton halegen "willow"). Fr. saule "willow" is from Frank. salha, from the Gmc. root. Used in Palm Sunday processions and decorations in England before the importing of real palm leaves began.

sallow (adj.)
O.E. salo "dusky, dark" (related to sol "dark, dirty"), from P.Gmc. *salwa- (cf. M.Du. salu "discolored, dirty," O.H.G. salo "dirty gray," O.N. sölr "dirty yellow"), from PIE base *sal- "dirty, gray" (cf. O.C.S. slavojocije "grayish-blue color," Rus. solovoj "cream-colored").


As to your other question about who the picture most looks like, I'm not sure. Maybe one answer is Lee Van Cleef from The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/lb/thumb/2/2a/280px-Lee_Van_Cleef.jpg

Definitely the same eyes, LOL, and a really big nose. In a few films, you know, he is called "The Preacher" ~ had to throw that in for Subtle. :) Here's another good one of him, all dressed in basic black:

http://www.alohacriticon.com/images/elcriticonfotos/lvancleef7.jpg

The Rolling Stones' drummer, Charlie Watts.....I think the grayer tone works better with the greens--since there's the background, which is yellow-toned, and the robe highlights, which are blue-toned. The grayer cast is more neutral.

That's a very interesting observation, Chievrefueil--I immediately had to run off to the book, and you're right (of course!): everything Snape says to Dumbledore is about being believed, and nothing is about Sirius' immienent punishment. It makes me think that this scene is even more of a parallel to the Willow Incident than we have previously discussed--it's not Sirius, and it's not the need for recognition. The issue for Snape is that he's seeing a replay of events years ago, and he wants Dumbledore to believe him so badly...

"I suppose he's told you the same fairy tale that he's planted in Potter's mind?" spat Snape. "Something about a rat, and Pettigrew being alive--"....

"And does my evidence count for nothing?" snarled Snape. "Peter Pettigrew was not in the Shrieking Shack, nor did I see any sign of him on the grounds" (p. 390, US paper).

"You surely don't believe a word of Black's story?" Snape whispered, his eyes fixed on Dumbledore's face....
Snape took a step toward Dumbledore.
"Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen," he breathed. "You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?"
"My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus," said Dumbleodre quietly.
Snape turned on his heel and marched through the door (p. 391).



And re: arguments. No, I'm not find of arguing. Or even debating. And I'm not even fond of the idea of "attacking posts, not posters." I prefer discussion, and I prefer to discuss all aspects of every character, whether those aspects are positive or negative. If I look at something positive, it doesn't mean I think a character is an "angel." If I look at something negative, it does not mean that I am attempting to demean a character. I am doing a literary analysis. That simple. The ultimate irony of the recent uproar is that Lupin is one of the characters I happen to like. Go figure.

I'm not sure what you mean--your example with the twins is not exactly Snape? We discussed the twins and Montague as a parallel to the Marauders and Snape quite a bit in the "Decon" thread several months ago....Ooops! I'm afraid I haven't really gotten too far on Decon., so many pages to read to catch up. Guess I better get on with it.

I'm also not certain about all the toilet references, but there are quite a few. It seems to me that all of them represent some type of humiliation...[cut]...Are there other toilet references that I missed?... Humiliation! I buy it, so bullying and humiliation connect to the toilet references In addition to the situations silver ink pot mentioned, there's the 'exploding toilets' that Arthur had to check out for work, which is about muggle-bullying.

That's a very interesting observation, Chievrefueil--I immediately had to run off to the book, and you're right (of course!): everything Snape says to Dumbledore is about being believed, and nothing is about Sirius' immienent punishment. It makes me think that this scene is even more of a parallel to the Willow Incident than we have previously discussed--it's not Sirius, and it's not the need for recognition. The issue for Snape is that he's seeing a replay of events years ago, and he wants Dumbledore to believe him so badly...

"I suppose he's told you the same fairy tale that he's planted in Potter's mind?" spat Snape. "Something about a rat, and Pettigrew being alive--"....

"And does my evidence count for nothing?" snarled Snape. "Peter Pettigrew was not in the Shrieking Shack, nor did I see any sign of him on the grounds" (p. 390, US paper).

"You surely don't believe a word of Black's story?" Snape whispered, his eyes fixed on Dumbledore's face....
Snape took a step toward Dumbledore.
"Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen," he breathed. "You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?"
"My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus," said Dumbleodre quietly.
Snape turned on his heel and marched through the door (p. 391).

Chiev and Subtle: You're both right about Dumbledore and Snape in PoA. Snape isn't just bent on revenge. He wants Dumbledore to believe him! :tu: I've always thought the rivalry between Snape and Sirius plus Lupin seems very much like "sibling rivalry." Snape wants Dumbledore's approval above everything.


And re: arguments. No, I'm not find of arguing. Or even debating. And I'm not even fond of the idea of "attacking posts, not posters." I prefer discussion, and I prefer to discuss all aspects of every character, whether those aspects are positive or negative. If I look at something positive, it doesn't mean I think a character is an "angel." If I look at something negative, it does not mean that I am attempting to demean a character. I am doing a literary analysis. That simple. The ultimate irony of the recent uproar is that Lupin is one of the characters I happen to like. Go figure.
Exactly, Subtle! These are books, and we are analyzing characters. We have to look at what the characters actually do and say, and not whether we get the warm fuzzies from them.:)

And I found these pictures of Charlie Watts. Cool suggestion!:
http://www.ronniescotts.co.uk/ronnie_scotts/ronniescotts/130/gifs/watts.jpghttp://www.super-illu.de/imperia/md/images/musik/r/26.jpghttp://www.opalmusic.com/psychrayola/Images/PSYCH52163.jpg

As soon as Chievrefueil said the Stones, I knew whom she had to mean!

Thought that occurred to me after I'd sent off the previous post. No wonder it's so vital for Snape to have Dumbledore believe him--in additon to all of *** other baggage...He knows that the Marauders lied to Dumbledore about being illegal Animagi while they were at school, and he knows that Lupin has lied for nearly an entire school year. He can't get Dumbledore to see that; he believes he's the one who is telling the truth and that he's up against liars who are quite adept at getting others to buy their stories. Everything about the descriptions of his voice indicates he's infuriated that he can't get Dumbledore to believe him; and, worse, that Dumbledore is electing to trust people who have successfully hidden the truth from him before.

Thought that occurred to me after I'd sent off the previous post. No wonder it's so vital for Snape to have Dumbledore believe him--in additon to all of *** other baggage...He knows that the Marauders lied to Dumbledore about being illegal Animagi while they were at school, and he knows that Lupin has lied for nearly an entire school year. He can't get Dumbledore to see that; he believes he's the one who is telling the truth and that he's up against liars who are quite adept at getting others to buy their stories. Everything about the descriptions of his voice indicates he's infuriated that he can't get Dumbledore to believe him; and, worse, that Dumbledore is electing to trust people who have successfully hidden the truth from him before.
Good point! I've actually been in a position like that before with a family member ~ more than once. It is really infuriating. I think Snape saw the Marauders as hypocrites, because Lupin was a Prefect and James was "Head Boy," yet they were pulling things behind Dumbledore's back all the time.

Edited to add: Aren't Alan Rickman and Charlie Watts from the same gene pool? It's incredible how two totally different people can have such similar profiles, lol.

I'm afraid this is mostly a social post--not much content. :)I looked up "sallow" and it actually has more meanings than I thought! I thought it just meant "yellow," but it can also mean "dark or dusky."

It has the same root word as "willow," isn't that weird? "Salix" is the genus for willow. Of course, "Salix" is also the source for "aspirin," salicylic acid, which I'm sure you already know, Chiev.I knew that aspirin is salicylic acid, but not that it came from the Salix genus of plants.

Interesting that sallow can also mean dark and dusky--I didn't know that! (Obviously. :rolleyes: )
Definitely the same eyes, LOL, and a really big nose.Yes, definitely the same eyes. I'm sure he's not who I was thinking of, though, because I've never seen The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly nor many other westerns.
I think the grayer tone works better with the greens--since there's the background, which is yellow-toned, and the robe highlights, which are blue-toned. The grayer cast is more neutral.Yes, that's right. I wasn't thinking in terms of the color pallette.
I prefer discussion, and I prefer to discuss all aspects of every character, whether those aspects are positive or negative. If I look at something positive, it doesn't mean I think a character is an "angel." If I look at something negative, it does not mean that I am attempting to demean a character. I am doing a literary analysis.I never shy away from argument or debate, but I absolutely agree with you.
Ooops! I'm afraid I haven't really gotten too far on Decon., so many pages to read to catch up. Guess I better get on with it.I certainly didn't mean to imply that you should read the "Decon" thread to find when we discussed the twins and Montague. I'm not even sure if I could find that discussion, now! :lol: I believe it was many versions ago and it's probably in the archives by now, if not completely deleted.
In addition to the situations silver ink pot mentioned, there's the 'exploding toilets' that Arthur had to check out for work, which is about muggle-bullying.Yes! I thought I was forgetting something. I meant to include that example of muggle-humiliation.
Everything about the descriptions of his voice indicates he's infuriated that he can't get Dumbledore to believe him; and, worse, that Dumbledore is electing to trust people who have successfully hidden the truth from him before.Yes. And, it would be even more dramatic for Snape if he'd never deceived Dumbledore himself (which I think is very likely).
Edited to add: Aren't Alan Rickman and Charlie Watts from the same gene pool? It's incredible how two totally different people can have such similar profiles, lol.Thanks for suggesting Charlie Watts, subtle. I wasn't sure who I meant, but "Rolling Stones" flashed into my head with that picture. The resemblance between Alan Rickman and Charlie Watts in that profile picture is striking. I could tell it wasn't Alan Rickman, but I would have believed they were brothers if someone had told me they were.

ETA: Okay, maybe a little content after all."You surely don't believe a word of Black's story?" Snape whispered, his eyes fixed on Dumbledore's face....
Snape took a step toward Dumbledore.
"Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen," he breathed. "You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?"
"My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus," said Dumbleodre quietly.
Snape turned on his heel and marched through the door (p. 391).This passage struck me as interesting because we've previously discussed that the quieter Snape is, the more angry he is. However, I don't interpret this as angry, but incredulous and desperate--especially because of his gesture in taking a step toward Dumbledore, trying to close the gap between them. Is Snape becoming quieter a cue that he's feeling strong emotion more than anger? (It's just that his chosen emotion is so often anger. . .)

Originally posted by SIP: Chiev and Subtle: You're both right about Dumbledore and Snape in PoA. Snape isn't just bent on revenge. He wants Dumbledore to believe him! I've always thought the rivalry between Snape and Sirius plus Lupin seems very much like "sibling rivalry." Snape wants Dumbledore's approval above everything.

Add another to this growing group; Snape not only wants, but I think, Needs DD to approve of him. He, more than Harry, I think, views DD as a father figure. DD's approval seems paramount to Snape. I don't think he really cared, at that moment, about Sirius and punishment, but about DD believing him. I've just finished reading Order (and will start them all again, tomorrow) and think that DD maybe is looking at the mistakes he made, not only in regards to Harry, but Snape. Pg 833 US Hardcover, he says, "I trust Severus Snape," said Dumbledore simply. "But I forgot, another old man's mistake--tahat some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father--I was wrong."
I think DD is realizing he expected too much from Snape, as he has with Harry. Trust is great, but it seems like DD is realizing he was relying too much on the trust these two have in him, thinking that it was enough to do whatever needed to be done.

Whoa! Am I behind on this thread or what???

Everyone has excellent EXCELLENT points on this thread already, so I suppose I'll take a look at the latest. :angel:

You mentioned the "trust" factor, vickilind. I agree with you the DD was elaborating a bit on his new realization that there is a flaw in his judgement of Snape - yet, he isn't blaming Snape at all for his actions. DD believes he is completely responsible for these flaws - with Harry and Snape.

DD has stated clearly twice now in the series, "I trust Severus Snape." But has he ever considered whether or not Snape completely trusts him?

I believe that trust is a two-way agreement. DD's trust obviously means a great deal to Snape, but if he doesn't feel that he is recieveing it will he decide that DD's trust isn't worth the effort???

OF course, all of this plays into what Snape's "story" was that he told DD when he switched sides all those years ago... why does Snape need DD's trust so badly?

Oh, I hope this makes sense... :blush:

lunalove, I agree; trust is a two-way street. And DD does seem to take the blame for his mistakes with Harry and Snape. I wonder, did he go and talk to Snape after Order? To apologize for taking so much for granted? I'd like to think so; he seems like the kind of person who would do that. I think DD realizes the difficult position he put Snape in and that's why I think he would talk to him. But, then again, we have the whole--Snape is a spy for LV to think about. How much could they talk without putting Snape in more danger with LV? He walks such a thin line as it is....I wonder?

As to your other question about who the picture most looks like, I'm not sure. Maybe one answer is Lee Van Cleef from The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly?

Would Snape be the good, the bad or the ugly? Or all three? ;)

sallow (n.)
"shrubby willow plant," O.E. sealh (Anglian salh), from P.Gmc. *salhjon (cf. O.N. selja

Aha, so Protogermanic: salhjon, Old Norse: selja - and we call it selje (pronounced sell-yeh)! :D

That's a very interesting observation, Chievrefueil--I immediately had to run off to the book, and you're right (of course!): everything Snape says to Dumbledore is about being believed, and nothing is about Sirius' immienent punishment. It makes me think that this scene is even more of a parallel to the Willow Incident than we have previously discussed--it's not Sirius, and it's not the need for recognition. The issue for Snape is that he's seeing a replay of events years ago, and he wants Dumbledore to believe him so badly...

Yes, good point, Chiev and Subtle. I really have difficulties picturing that scene with Dumbledore after the Willow incident. I consider to be near the top of the list of Dumbledore's biggest mistakes. This list also includes not telling Harry about the prophesy, and not ensuring that Sirius had a trial in the first place. However, he is not omnipotent, however divine he seems, so I guess whatever he said or did after the Willow incident must have been because he didn't know the full picture. Just like when he let Sirius be in prison for 12 years, it was not his decition, and there was not much he could do about it, as long as he didn't know the truth. He could only suspect. Because Sirius himself, along with James, had deliberately kept the trusth frmo him. I think the same thing happened regarding the Willow incident: James and Sirius kept the truth from Dumbledore, while Snape ... can't have spoken to him about it either. Dumbledore knows that Snape was nearly killed, but not more. Probably Snape didn't tell him the full story because it was too difficult for him to talk about. Or because he felt stupid for following Sirius into the Willow. Or both. Perhaps he was desperately hoping that Dumbledore would find out, but found himself unable to actually tell him the full story.

Good point! I've actually been in a position like that before with a family member ~ more than once. It is really infuriating. I think Snape saw the Marauders as hypocrites, because Lupin was a Prefect and James was "Head Boy," yet they were pulling things behind Dumbledore's back all the time.

Exactly! :tu:

This passage struck me as interesting because we've previously discussed that the quieter Snape is, the more angry he is. However, I don't interpret this as angry, but incredulous and desperate--especially because of his gesture in taking a step toward Dumbledore, trying to close the gap between them. Is Snape becoming quieter a cue that he's feeling strong emotion more than anger? (It's just that his chosen emotion is so often anger. . .)

:agree: If he feels that the whole evening has been a replay of his second worst memory, he must be feeling all sorts of negative emotions - anger, frustration, despair, shame ... and more, that I don't know the names for.

* hoping this p[ost wont be lost like the previous one *
"Give me a reason...."
Interesting line , to say the least . in my lastpost , I wondered if Snape had been a murderer , either for or against the Order and the good Side, or both . This naturally led to the speculation whether we would see Snape-the murderer , in future , which is when I came across a post containing this line . thanks to whoever posted that !
I think that Snape went to the Shrieking Shack primarily to catch Lupin red-handed , since he was the only one he saw going into thr Shack on the Marauders' Map . Due to this , revenge was the foremost on his mind at that time . I am not sure whether he was even aware that the Trio was present there , until he reached the door and listened to Lupin's speech . There , Harry and Hermione interrupt Lupin , meaning that Severus would have known . Even then , revenge was his primary motive , indicated by his behaviour towards Lupin and Sirius . With all that hatred brewing in him ,I found it strange that snape could control his emotions to such a great extent as to not murder Sirius on the spot . after all , what did he have to lose ? Sirius was a wanted man ,a known supporter of Voldemort and if Severus were to hand him over to the Ministry , dead , he would have definitely been rewarded handsomely . on a personal level , he would have had a great triumph over the Marauders who had tormented him , having murdered one of them , and probably sending the other to Azkaban .
And yet , he restrains himself , asking sirius for a reason . I thought Severus already had all the reasons in place ??
Maybe , for all the appearances , Severus too , is not a person that can commit murder . It's something that is as unacceptable to him as it is to Dumbledore , maybe.
your thoughts , guys.....

Even then , revenge was his primary motive , indicated by his behaviour towards Lupin and Sirius .

I wouldn't say revenge was his primary motive, but rather that revenge was one of his motives. I would say a lots of things go through his mind when he goes down that tunnel, including: Lives are in danger, Lupin is a werewolf who has not taken his medicine, Lupin is in league with a crazy murderer and has probabl helped him get into the school (does Snape perhaps suspect that Sirius has been using the willow tunnel to get in? He knows about the tunnel, after all, why didn't he check there after the attack on the Fat Lady?? :huh:) And other thoughts, or feelings, that go through his mind, are revenge, anger and flashbacks from the willow incident when he was little, when he was nearly killed.

I found it strange that snape could control his emotions to such a great extent as to not murder Sirius on the spot . after all , what did he have to lose ?

He has nothing to lose, as I argued a few posts up. The Ministry would reward him, and so would Voldemort. He has nothing at all to lose, and a lot to gain. But still, he doesn't do it, which I interpret to mean that Snape is not a person who can kill.

on a personal level , he would have had a great triumph over the Marauders who had tormented him , having murdered one of them , and probably sending the other to Azkaban .

I don't understand this. Who murdered one of who? Who sent who to Azkaban? The only murdered person I can think of is James, and he was murdered by Voldemort, with help from Peter. Sirius was in Azkaban, but he was sent there by the Ministry. :huh:

And yet , he restrains himself , asking sirius for a reason . I thought Severus already had all the reasons in place ??
Maybe , for all the appearances , Severus too , is not a person that can commit murder . :agree:

on a personal level , he would have had a great triumph over the Marauders who had tormented him , having murdered one of them , and probably sending the other to Azkaban .
I don't understand this. Who murdered one of who? Who sent who to Azkaban? The only murdered person I can think of is James, and he was murdered by Voldemort, with help from Peter. Sirius was in Azkaban, but he was sent there by the Ministry. i think albie was talking of a possible future if Snape had murdered Sirius on the spot and sent Lupin to Azkaban, which was Snape's desire upon entering the Shack.

I missed a lot of good discussions here.. I'm never on when things get heated!;)

I wanted to contribute a thought to the Lupin-Snape relationship growing more respectful from PoA to OotP: it's somewhat of a success and encouragment for Lupin to see Snape working hard for the Order, and it's an encouragment for Snape to see Lupin trusting him.
I wonder if DD consulted Lupin before deciding to appoint Snape Occlumency teacher.. he could have thought it was possible to fix the grudge between Snape and James, after seeing a bit of progress with the grudge between Snape and Lupin. Maybe Lupin even suggested Snape? That would be a show of respect!

Add another to this growing group; Snape not only wants, but I think, Needs DD to approve of him. He, more than Harry, I think, views DD as a father figure. DD's approval seems paramount to Snape.

..which makes me wonder again how he'll react if DD goes. It might leave him very adrift.

Good job, thestralgrin!

Thanks :tu:

Why is Snape's skin in the drawing grey, though? Is that "sallow?" I'd always pictured "sallow" as more yellowed.

I think that was just me being too lazy to edit my colours, but I do like using that pale grey - it was also the base for my Lupin (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/redrat/Lupinvs.jpg) pic.

(anyway - gotta run - mythbusters has started ^^)

i think albie was talking of a possible future if Snape had murdered Sirius on the spot and sent Lupin to Azkaban, which was Snape's desire upon entering the Shack.

*slaps forehead* Of course, I see it now, I'm rather slow sometimes. Thanks, Severa. :blush:

Thank you for the call to order, clkginny. :tu:

I'm sorry I missed your posts, subtle. I always enjoy reading them, even on the rare occasions when I disagree with you, and I think the main reason for that is your attitude to posting. I apologise if anything I've written has offended you, or anyone else, in any way.

Very interesting observations about Snape's attitude in the hospital wing. He does seem more concerned about Dumbledore than Sirius. Of course it isn't really a question of Sirius's punishment at that point, since Fudge believes Snape and Dumbledore isn't able to intervene. Although that makes me wonder about Snape's reaction on learning Sirius has escaped. Knowing that Dumbledore believed Sirius, surely it would have made more sense for him to suspect Dumbledore, and not Harry, of helping Sirius escape?

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil
This passage struck me as interesting because we've previously discussed that the quieter Snape is, the more angry he is. However, I don't interpret this as angry, but incredulous and desperate--especially because of his gesture in taking a step toward Dumbledore, trying to close the gap between them. Is Snape becoming quieter a cue that he's feeling strong emotion more than anger? (It's just that his chosen emotion is so often anger. . .)

Interesting question. I don't see it as anger in that scene either, more desperation, as you said.

Originally Posted by Norbertha
He has nothing to lose, as I argued a few posts up. The Ministry would reward him, and so would Voldemort. He has nothing at all to lose, and a lot to gain. But still, he doesn't do it, which I interpret to mean that Snape is not a person who can kill.

Sorry to disagree, Norbertha. That both sides have something to gain from Sirius's death, or believe they have, does not necessarily mean that Snape has nothing to lose by killing him. Much as it may have pleased Voldemort to have Sirius killed, I expect he would not be happy with Snape for killing someone he believed to be a fellow Death Eater. Of course this would apply to arresting Sirius as well, so it doesn't really change the conclusion about Snape choosing not to kill. Although I wonder - it would be a very good reason for making the kill/capture look personal, rather than political. Not sure if his state of mind allowed for that kind of plotting just then, though.

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil
I think a third option is that he would do it if he needed to--"give me a reason"--but he wouldn't do it in cold blood. Whether or not Harry would kill someone with an urgent reason remains to be seen.

I think you're right about this. That quote suggests that he believes he would be able to do it - if necessary. I wonder if the similarities between Harry and Snape come into play here? We saw how Harry reacted when he understood the implications of the prophecy.

Chievrefueil--I agree about the emotion in Snape's confrontation with Dumbledore. Most often quiet = fury, but it may very well be that it simply indicates very strong emotion, which, for Snape, is usually of the explosive nature....But he does take the step forward--not in a threatening manner, and not something he normally does. It strikes me as more a physical manifestation of the plea.

I also agree with your idea that Snape may not, himself, ever deceived Dumbledore. The only lie we see him committing in the books is his pretended loyalty to Voldemort; otherwise, he is thoroughly upfront. That's not really the sort of trait one suddenly acquires; that tends to be very much a nearly ingrained behavior....Which is a contributing factor, then, to his being so furious that people who are lying get away with it. And it is consistent with the whole Legilimency/Occlumency study--the obscure branches of magic.

Speaking of that...severa78--I don't think that Lupin would've recommended Snape for the Occlumency lessons--it sounds as if it was Dumbledore's decision, both from what Snape says and what Dumbledore says at the end of the novel. I still hold to my theory that Lupin goes trhough a crucible in PoA: he realizes the mistakes he's made (and they're not minor ones, so it's a major epiphany); he matures, so that the glimpses of him in OotP, while obviously still consistent with his character in PoA, nevertheless show more thought--deeper consideration. That was missing in PoA, when he really didn't think through to the fullest extent what the results of his decisions/actions could be. The missing piece is Snape: it's implied that something has changed there, too--or Lupin wouldn't say that he could be the one to talk to Snape. However, there's no interaction between the two, and Snape doesn't refer to Lupin--so that remains a complete blank.

albie, Norbertha--It does seem that Snape is not a killer. Either he's done it, and will not/ cannot ever do it again, or it's just something he cannot quite bring himself to do. Just the fact that he gives the warning of "Give me a reason" says he won't do it--if he were really h-llbent on killing Sirius, he would've just done it. It's not fear of consequences, obviously, that stops him...since, in fact, he would've been rewarded (there goes the theory that he's obsessed with getting the Order of Merlin!). He pulls himself back from that brink. Which also provides an interesting contrast to Sirius' act: he never regrets the Willow Incident, and it was not he who stopped the events from unfolding that would lead to Snape's death: it was James.

And one does wonder what happened and what was said, in the aftermath of that Incident. I could very much see Norbertha's theory playing out: Snape's saying nothing. That would also be consistent with what we see of his inarticulateness at that age.....

Alan Rickman. Charlie Watts. Twins, separated at birth.............

Sorry to disagree, Norbertha. That both sides have something to gain from Sirius's death, or believe they have, does not necessarily mean that Snape has nothing to lose by killing him. Much as it may have pleased Voldemort to have Sirius killed, I expect he would not be happy with Snape for killing someone he believed to be a fellow Death Eater. Of course this would apply to arresting Sirius as well, so it doesn't really change the conclusion about Snape choosing not to kill. Although I wonder - it would be a very good reason for making the kill/capture look personal, rather than political. Not sure if his state of mind allowed for that kind of plotting just then, though.
Ah, I didn't think quite as far as you did, Alisel. :tu: I forgot to consider what Voldemort thought Snape thought he knew about Sirius. If Voldemort thought that Snape thought that Sirius was loyal to Voldemort - even though Voldemort himself knew otherwise - he would not have been happy about Snape killing, or indeed capturing, a man who he thought were on the Dark Side. (I'm not drawing a tree diagram of the syntax in this sentence! :lol:) But, on the other hand, if Voldemort thought that Snape knew that Sirius wasn't really the traitor who gave up the Potters to Voldemort, he would have been pleased to see Sirius killed by Snape.

Chievrefueil--I agree about the emotion in Snape's confrontation with Dumbledore. Most often quiet = fury, but it may very well be that it simply indicates very strong emotion, which, for Snape, is usually of the explosive nature....But he does take the step forward--not in a threatening manner, and not something he normally does. It strikes me as more a physical manifestation of the plea.

And he turns on his heel and runs out of the room! What kind of childish reaction is that! That sounds like something I would do when I'm angry and frustrated, not something Snape would do. :huh: :lol:

*slaps forehead* Of course, I see it now, I'm rather slow sometimes. Thanks, Severa. No problem.. it gets difficult after a few pages of interesting, ideas-packed posts to discern a sentence!
The missing piece is Snape: it's implied that something has changed there, too--or Lupin wouldn't say that he could be the one to talk to Snape. However, there's no interaction between the two, and Snape doesn't refer to Lupin--so that remains a complete blank.That's what I meant by "encouragement". Lupin's polite attitude (and Snape's at that) in PoA have made a difference in the end, so it might look like the right way to go about things: having a new reason to be on the same side and trust each other enhances mending of the cut, hence the remark, when it goes horribly wrong, that "some cuts run too deep". Evidently Snape's grudge with Lupin wasn't as deep as the grudge with James and Sirius. That's why Severus can, supposedly, have a conversation with Lupin, but only quarrels with Sirius.

Pojnt taken on Lupin suggesting Snape for the lessons, that was a bit out in the field. It's good enough Lupin recognises Snape's a fair choice because of his abilities.. can't expect miracles.. sounds like when DD settles for a "handshake" at the end of GoF.
And he turns on his heel and runs out of the room! What kind of childish reaction is that! That sounds like something I would do when I'm angry and frustrated, not something Snape would do.It's the child in him.. the one which sees DD as a father figure like somebody stated (can't remember who did first). And yes, I would do it, too. My boyfriend actually did it only last week.. :lol:

And he turns on his heel and runs out of the room! What kind of childish reaction is that! That sounds like something I would do when I'm angry and frustrated, not something Snape would do. :huh: :lol:It does sound like a child's reaction, almost as if the situation is overwhelming. As if, he can't be sure he can contol his emotions and is afraid show his hurt or to be seen crying.

About the idea that Snape is so adverse to killing and is able to control his desire, he is his own conscience. Not only does this play against Sirius claiming Snape 'deserved' the werewolf prank, but also to Sirius and Lupin wanting to kill Peter. Sirius wants to kill him immediately. It is Remus that insists they first prove the 'rightness' to Harry. And Harry plays their conscience. After hearing Peter's reasons, they were perfectly willing to kill Peter. It's kind of passed off that they also needed him alive to prove Sirius' innocence, however I think a 'freshly-dead' Peter would have been enough to question Sirius' guilt.

Alisel--I don't think it is physically possible for you to offend anyone... : )

You know, I don't find Snape's walking out to be childish...He does it, that I can think of, three times in PoA, each time when he's having it out with Dumbledore. The first time, in the Great Hall, he leaves after Dumbledore; the other two times are at the end, when his temper is completely undone. I find it actually to be a bit mature--it's not that he walking out while Dumbledore is in mid-sentence (which would be quite baby-ish!); each time, he's been dismissed and, rather than continue the fight, he walks away. He yields to Dumbledore--he's not happy one bit; he's fuming each time, but he walks away....

he's not happy one bit; he's fuming each time, but he walks away....It's not the fact that he's walking out, it's how he does it.. I can see heavy angry strides and hear the door slam! A grown-up attitude would have been more controlled, maybe even a bit of a mock-bow. But maybe that's just me.. :blush:

"You surely don't believe a word of Black's story?" Snape whispered, his eyes fixed on Dumbledore's face....
Snape took a step toward Dumbledore.
"Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen," he breathed. "You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?"
"My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus," said Dumbleodre quietly.
Snape turned on his heel and marched through the door (p. 391).
It does sound like a child's reaction, almost as if the situation is overwhelming. As if, he can't be sure he can contol his emotions and is afraid show his hurt or to be seen crying.
That is indeed usually the reason when I storm out of a room. :agree: :blush:

Can somebody write this scene for Snape's point of view? I was going to ask Subtle, but I see that she has a different view (which is okay):

You know, I don't find Snape's walking out to be childish...He does it, that I can think of, three times in PoA, each time when he's having it out with Dumbledore. The first time, in the Great Hall, he leaves after Dumbledore; the other two times are at the end, when his temper is completely undone. I find it actually to be a bit mature--it's not that he walking out while Dumbledore is in mid-sentence (which would be quite baby-ish!); each time, he's been dismissed and, rather than continue the fight, he walks away. He yields to Dumbledore--he's not happy one bit; he's fuming each time, but he walks away....
It's not the fact that he's walking out, it's how he does it.. I can see heavy angry strides and hear the door slam! A grown-up attitude would have been more controlled, maybe even a bit of a mock-bow. But maybe that's just me..

Yeah, I guess it can be interpreted either way. It says he "turned on his heel" and "marched" out of the room, which gave me the impression of lots of emotions, and storming out in a childish manner, but it could be otherwise. Ah, the wonderful thing about literature, as opposed to film.

Yeah, I guess it can be interpreted either way. It says he "turned on his heel" and "marched" out of the room, which gave me the impression of lots of emotions, and storming out in a childish manner, but it could be otherwise. Ah, the wonderful thing about literature, as opposed to film.Doesn't he "storm" out of the room at some point? And yeah, the beauty of literature: each of us has a different picture.. I really shouldn't be watching the movies, I get confused..
Can somebody write this scene for Snape's point of view? I was going to ask Subtle, but I see that she has a different view (which is okay):Hear, hear! You're usually the one who writes wonderful fanfics from different points of view.. I was about to ask you!

I have to say I share subtle's opinion about Snape's leaving the room. :agree: He has done his best to convince Dumbledore of his point of view, even went as far as pleading, but realizes that Dumbledore won't be swayed and that further arguing won't change that. So he just silently - if not happily - yields to the Headmaster and leaves, before his emotions can take over completely. (Or maybe it's good enough for him that Dumbledore does remember the "prank", for that's the phrase he reacts to by leaving. :shrug: )

It doesn't look like he actually slams the door or something, that seems to be something only Movie!Snape does, e.g. in the PS/SS introduction speech scene or when he subs for Lupin in PoA. :huh: In the books he doesn't slam doors like that, rather he is already in the room and Harry arrives only after him.

As for a POV, I had marked that scene down for rewriting way back, but never got around to actually doing it for the POV thread. Maybe I ought to, haven't written anything in ages... :blush: *ducks and runs*

On p. 391, Snape leaves through the door that Fudge is holding open for him; all that is said is "It closed behind them." It's actually Pomfrey who had the real temper tantrum: "Madame Pomfrey pursed her lips and strode away into her office at the end of the ward, slamming the door behind her" (p. 391).

Later, when Snape actually is shouting, he again doesn't slam the door: "Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked thoroughly shocked at his behavior, to Dumbledore, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses. Snape swirled about, robes swishing behind him, and stormed out of the ward" (p. 420).

He's definitely in the throes of very strong emotion--but it just strikes me as a decision not to stay and really say/do something he'll regret: he's been told to leave, and he does; he won't prolong a useless argument that could escalate into a bigger problem.

I thought of another scene that echoes this, albeit Snape doesn't have any respect for his opponent in this one: he starts to walk out of the kitchen in "Occlumency," but Sirius calls him back. It's after that that the situation escalates. Before, they've exchanged a couple of milder insults and Snape has delivered his message to Harry; he's done, and he's out of there...but Sirius doesn't let him leave. And the insults fly fast, culminating in their pulling their wands on each other. If only Sirius had let him go....(and that would've been the opportune moment to speak to Harry in private and tell Harry, without Snape's being present, to let him know if Snape gave him a hard time--or something more mature than that....)

You know, I don't find Snape's walking out to be childish...He does it, that I can think of, three times in PoA, each time when he's having it out with Dumbledore. The first time, in the Great Hall, he leaves after Dumbledore; the other two times are at the end, when his temper is completely undone. I find it actually to be a bit mature--it's not that he walking out while Dumbledore is in mid-sentence (which would be quite baby-ish!); each time, he's been dismissed and, rather than continue the fight, he walks away. He yields to Dumbledore--he's not happy one bit; he's fuming each time, but he walks away....
Originally Posted by severa78
It's not the fact that he's walking out, it's how he does it.. I can see heavy angry strides and hear the door slam! A grown-up attitude would have been more controlled, maybe even a bit of a mock-bow. But maybe that's just me..
Yeah, I guess it can be interpreted either way. It says he "turned on his heel" and "marched" out of the room, which gave me the impression of lots of emotions, and storming out in a childish manner, but it could be otherwise. Ah, the wonderful thing about literature, as opposed to film.

I love reading the analysis of this scene by all of you fiction writers! I can see it from every point of view, and you are all persuasive. But I think my view of the scene is closer to Subtles. When I read the word "march," I see someone who is indignant and unapologetic. To me, Snape's body language is that he is angry at Dumbledore and both of them know why, so there is no reason to argue. Walking out is the statement of his anger, and the fact that he doesn't stand there and argue with Dumbledore any further is a sign that he is in control of himself.

We see Snape do that again when he is confronted by Fake Moody in GoF. He reaches a point at which Moody/Barty is insinuating that he is working against Harry, and that he is untrustworthy. At first he defends himself by saying Dumbledore trusts him, and then he suddenly announces he is going back to bed ~ which isn't true. Harry sees him go back to his office again. But for this discussion, the point is that he walks away from an argument.

I find this behavior very reminiscent of Hermione, who often has the last word with Harry and Ron and then walks away, goes to the library, or goes to bed. She will plead her case or argue up to a point, then she keeps her dignity by walking away.

I wish I could remember to use the pressure valve of walking away more often. :evil: I nearly always say too much in anger, and then I'm sorry about it later. It's better to just walk away and think, which is what I suspect Snape has learned to do to deal with his bad temper.

Blimey, you move fast! It seems like ages ago that I slipped in a word, but most of the time I've just caught up enough to follow you all living me little time to actually give my two cents (being fully occupied with my studies coming to an end); you're just to quick. For once I've caught up so here goes…

I thought of another scene that echoes this, albeit Snape doesn't have any respect for his opponent in this one: he starts to walk out of the kitchen in "Occlumency," but Sirius calls him back. It's after that that the situation escalates. Before, they've exchanged a couple of milder insults and Snape has delivered his message to Harry; he's done, and he's out of there...but Sirius doesn't let him leave. And the insults fly fast, culminating in their pulling their wands on each other. If only Sirius had let him go....(and that would've been the opportune moment to speak to Harry in private and tell Harry, without Snape's being present, to let him know if Snape gave him a hard time--or something more mature than that....)

Good point! Never really thought of it from this angle. It shows that Snape knows when it's time to leave thus trying to prevent the argument hanging in the air. He knows where the "point of no return" is when facing Sirius and tries to avoid it. However, he's not strong enough to give a cunning reaction to Sirius' threat and leave the room, which means that this was already the step outside of his control. I wonder if Sirius knew what he was in for by doing this or if he already was beyond control at that point. I think I'd go for the later and I'd guess Snape had already sensed this, giving him another reason to leave.

I just saw Subtle's post about Snape and Sirius in the kitchen. I was tempted to bring that up in my post, but I didn't. Now that Subtle has tossed Sirius into the picture, I'll just say that Sirius is the immature one, in my mind. He doesn't know when to pick his battles. He fights with Molly on Harry's first night at Grimmauld Place ~ a totally unnecessary argument which doesn't even give Harry much information. Sirius fights for the right to "tell Harry everything," and then he never talks about anything with him again.

He picks a fight with Snape while Snape is heading out the door. Again, it is unnecessary and childish. Sirius never just walks away from an argument.

Alisel--
You know, I don't find Snape's walking out to be childish... I find it actually to be a bit mature--it's not that he walking out while Dumbledore is in mid-sentence (which would be quite baby-ish!); each time, he's been dismissed and, rather than continue the fight, he walks away. He yields to Dumbledore--he's not happy one bit; he's fuming each time, but he walks away....

Usually when Ileave an argument that way I am biting my tongue to keep myself from saying something I will regret. Snape is subordinate to DD so any more arguing would be pointless and rude. We have to remember that we see all events through the filter of Harry's attitudes and thoughts.

I just re-read Harry's first night at 12GP again (I'm working my way through OotP); once again, it raised my blood pressure to new heights. I just want to resort to an act of physical violence when Sirius decides it's a good time to stir things up. Grr.

With Sirius, both with Molly and Snape, I think the problem is that he can't stand to lose an argument--or anything, for that matter. He wins with Molly--although she does fire off the extremely Snape-like shot about Azkaban (it may, also like Snape's comments, be nasty...but it's also quite accurate). He loses with Snape, which is indicated by his drawing his wand first and resorting to the exceptionally rude, childish use of "Snivellus."

I had forgotten the FakeMoody one...I do believe there's a pattern here. He does another version of it when he's talking to Harry during the first Occlumency lesson. :

"You have no subtlety, Potter," said Snape, his dark eyes glittering. "You do not understand fine distinctions. It is one of the shortcomings that make you such a lamentable potion-maker."
Snape paused for a moment, apparently to savor the pleasure of insulting Harry, before continuing, "Only Muggles talk of 'mind reading'" (p. 530, OotP, US hardcover).

Harry sees it as Snape enjoying the insult; I've always seen it as Snape's pulling himself back--he just stepped out of line. It's not going to be helpful if he lets his temper get the best of him (note the glittering eyes) and he begins the lessons by verbally flaying Harry....So he stops dead, regroups, and answers Harry's question in a more civilized manner. Had he not done that--proceeded to explain what Harry wanted to know, in detail, I would've agreed with Harry's assessment. But Snape goes on for a paragraph, in a quite different manner from the opening skirmishes they've already had: he drops the antagonism and goes into real teacher mode.

"You have no subtlety, Potter," said Snape, his dark eyes glittering. "You do not understand fine distinctions. It is one of the shortcomings that make you such a lamentable potion-maker."
Snape paused for a moment, apparently to savor the pleasure of insulting Harry, before continuing, "Only Muggles talk of 'mind reading'" (p. 530, OotP, US hardcover).

Harry sees it as Snape enjoying the insult; I've always seen it as Snape's pulling himself back--he just stepped out of line. It's not going to be helpful if he lets his temper get the best of him (note the glittering eyes) and he begins the lessons by verbally flaying Harry....So he stops dead, regroups, and answers Harry's question in a more civilized manner. Had he not done that--proceeded to explain what Harry wanted to know, in detail, I would've agreed with Harry's assessment. But Snape goes on for a paragraph, in a quite different manner from the opening skirmishes they've already had: he drops the antagonism and goes into real teacher mode.

Exactly. :agree: :tu: I've often wondered why some think that he doesn't really try to teach Harry Occlumency and tend to overlook that he's actually explaining stuff to Harry, instead of only flaying him verbally, which wasn't the point for the lessons after all. This is nothing like the way he is in Potions lessons, and more than Dumbledore, Sirius etc. do.

Dumbledore keeps important info from him (and has apparently told the Order members to do so too, for nobody explains things to him, including the Weasleys and Tonks), Sirius picks a fight over Harry's right to "hear everything" but doesn't proceed to actually telling him the really important stuff. Snape, in contrast, does give Harry important info about the scar connection and its consequences when asked (in spite of the possible danger for him if LV were to find out?). He does so in his usual snarky way instead of being nice, but I find it important that he does.

Also in later lessons doesn't fly off the handle when Harry manages to push him out of his mind, first with a stinging hex, later with Protego. He could have gotten angry then, and the PS/SS Snape probably would have, but his reactions sound rather like backhanded praise. "For a first time that wasn't as bad as it could have been..." How often have we heard him say something like that before? :wow: That was something new developing there... until that infamous Pensieve scene.

In less than a day , there have been 20 posts between my last one and this one . Boy , this one has got to be the fastest thread on CoS !!
Norbertha , sorry about the confusing sentence ! *promises to owl the negative feedback pretty soon and is sorry for the delay*
Severa , thanks for clearing it up for me , that's exactly what I had meant .

Subtle - I had heard of the Harry Filter earlier , but that Occlumency example that you recently provided really made me realise what you were going on about . Its effects are really wonderful , I would not , in a million years , have seen that Snape might have actually been using that minute's gap tp regroup , and not to savour any insults. Thanks for that view !

so....you guys agree that , for now , Snape too , seems incapable of murder , eh ? That leaves us with DD,Moody and Snape as guys who do not commit murder . I was surprised that , for all the mildness , it was Lupin who came closest to committing one . I also felt that that line - " you should have realised that if Voldemort didn't kill you , we would . Goodbye , Peter ." sounded quite chilling ! Just the kind of thing a murderer with a completely cool head would say .

And as for Harry committing murder that night in the Shack , the question I always had was....how ? He hadn't so much as heard of the Avada Kedavra curse by that age , and I think it's safe to assume that they didn't know of other means to kill people . Maybe Hermione did , but certainly not Harry . How then , was Harry planning to kill Sirius ? We know he can do magic when in the grasp of strong emotion , as he did with blowing up Aunt Marge , but I doubt if merely feeling murderously angry would have had Sirius dropping dead in the Shrieking Shack .

Originally posted by Subtlescience: Harry sees it as Snape enjoying the insult; I've always seen it as Snape's pulling himself back--he just stepped out of line. It's not going to be helpful if he lets his temper get the best of him (note the glittering eyes) and he begins the lessons by verbally flaying Harry....So he stops dead, regroups, and answers Harry's question in a more civilized manner. Had he not done that--proceeded to explain what Harry wanted to know, in detail, I would've agreed with Harry's assessment. But Snape goes on for a paragraph, in a quite different manner from the opening skirmishes they've already had: he drops the antagonism and goes into real teacher mode.

Great find, Subtle! I love the first lesson between the two of them, because we see Snape letting down his defenses with Harry for the first time. That darn Harry-filter skews everything. But we can see that this is a big thing for Snape. He is patient, answering Harrys questions and allowing Harry to use his wand to defend himself. Talk about trust! Snape is well aware of how talented Harry is becoming with his wand after 4 years. Yet, he still allows Harry to defend himself. When Harry does have some success---
"Enough!"...............
"Reparo!" hisses Snape, and the jar sealed itself once more. "Well Potter...that was certainly an improvement..."
........"Let's try again, shall we?" said Snape.
Despite the fact that Harry had jinxes Snape and had seen some of Snapes memories, he still pushes on with the lesson. For someone like Snape, to whom privacy seems very important, he still goes on. It must be even more difficult to have Harry in class, knowing what he has seen. Wondering if he is talking to his friends, telling him about Snape being vunerable. Because of all the views we have of Snape, up till that point, none of them have been vunerable. Yet, he continues trying to teach Harry. The personal risk he is undergoing must include the idea that Harry will see things that might change his view of Snape.
Snape is such a contradiction; when we see snippets of his past in Order, it changes things for the readers. (at least for this reader) I see someone vunerable, and it affects my reading of him. I will begin reading the series again this week and I know that each time I have read the books since my first reading of Order, I viewed Snape differently. His character has, indeed, developed since SS/PS!

The Shrieking Shack scene in PoA, I think, shows Lupin at his worst--as it does Snape, Sirius (we've only heard of the Willow episode--PoA shows he still retains that potential), and Harry. Lupin, too often for my taste, is painted as utterly saintly...rather one-dimensionally sweet (ick)...but the book Lupin has some very interesting shadings to him. I agree, albie, that that line of his is chilling; it makes a perfect mirror of Snape's "Give me a reason." As I said before the purge, Lupin does a great deal of good in PoA, but it becomes clear that he has an immature streak. What sets him apart from the other characters is that we see the keystone moment for him, in the Shack, when he realizes his flaws and errors and accepts them. To me, it accounts perfectly for the difference in his character in OotP: no, he hasn't done some bizarre 180; what was good in PoA remains, but there's a deeper sense to him...a maturity...that wasn't quite there in PoA.

Sirius, of course, never gets any further chance to mature; in fact, I think he regresses in OotP. The whole series is, obviously, about Harry's maturation. And Snape is the work in progress. Like Lupin, he shoulders a tremendous burden--in Snape's case, for the Order...and the most reaction we've seen from him about it are his responses to Dumbledore at the end of GoF and to Harry's "That's your job" shot in OotP. Otherwise, he just does what he does without much acknowledgment and certainly no complaint. However, he's stuck in that Marauder past; he has yet to resolve that--the plot point that still hangs. As a character, his disadvantage is that he is so not a nice person; not only do we see much more of him than we do Lupin, but his personality failings stand out that much more sharply because he simply is not a pleasant person.

And as for Occlumency--my favorite stuff in the books. It's the perfect example of Snape As Teacher. Is he nice? No. Is he nurturing and caring and coddling? Are you kidding?!? But he's thorough and professional and clear, in a totally no-nonsense way. He's acerbic and demanding; he's never satisfied with anything. And--the latter is exacerbated by the fact that Harry doesn't pull his own weight: that's what makes Snape lose it in the lessons: that Harry won't do it right (I don't think for one second that Snape doubts Harry's ability to do this--the comment about the Imperius Curse was an acknowledgment of Harry's ability and a veiled compliment) or even try, despite how vital this work is.

Harry sees it as Snape enjoying the insult; I've always seen it as Snape's pulling himself back--he just stepped out of line. It's not going to be helpful if he lets his temper get the best of him (note the glittering eyes) and he begins the lessons by verbally flaying Harry....So he stops dead, regroups, and answers Harry's question in a more civilized manner.Great point! So Snape is capable of collecting his emotion and regain composure in this occasion. But he wasn't capable of the same act back in PoA when he lost control, or at the end of GoF when he "stormed out of the room". Has he matured in the meantime, or is it that he feels the need to act mature in front of Harry when DD is not present? I'd go with the former, because when he sees Harry in the Pensieve, he shows the same ability. He realises he's gone too far and it's not the right to push Harry around, and he regains composure enough to tell him to leave..

Did I make sense? :blush:

And as for Harry committing murder that night in the Shack , the question I always had was....how ? He hadn't so much as heard of the Avada Kedavra curse by that age , and I think it's safe to assume that they didn't know of other means to kill people .
I assume he thought of killing him with his bare hands, muggle way. He was angry enough. In fact, he almost succeded while they were having the fight, before Sirius could explain. Of course, I doubt he would have made it in the end.. cold-blooded murder by strangling or something. I don't think Harry was planning a way to kill Sirius when he said "I'm going to kill him".

Inspired by subtle science and her observation about Snape about to leave the scene of an argument, I've taken a closer look at the kitchen scene. It seems that this "leaving before things get out of hand", observed also in other situations, isn't the only interesting detail about it. In the entire scene Sirius seems to be the more active part in the argument here.

While Snape sure isn't above using the opportunity for taunts (which doesn't help at all to avoid the argument hanging in the air :rolleyes: ) and seems to be willing to fight if he has to, overall he does seem to be rather reacting, and more interested in getting done with it.

OotP, UK ed., p. 457-461:
A minute or two later, he [Harry] pushed open the kitchen door to find Sirius and Snape both seated at the long kitchen table, glaring in opposite directions. The silence between them was heavy with mutual dislike. A letter lay open on the table in front of Sirius.
'Er,' said Harry, to announce his presence.
Snape looked around at him, his face framed between curtains of greasy black hair.
'Sit down, Potter.'
'You know,' said Sirius loudly, leaning back on his rear chair legs and speaking to the ceiling, 'I think I'd prefer it if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house, you see.'
An ugly flush suffused Snape's pallid face. Harry sat down in a chair beside Sirius, facing Snape across the table.
'I was supposed to see you alone, Potter,' said Snape, the familiar sneer curling his mouth, 'but Black -'
'I'm his godfather,' said Sirius, louder than ever.
'I am here on Dumbledore's orders,' said Snape, whose voice, by contrast, was becoming more and more quietly waspish, 'but by all means stay, Black, I know you like to feel ... involved.'
'What's that supposed to mean?' said Sirius, letting his chair fall back on all four legs with a loud bang.
'Merely that I am sure you must feel - ah - frustrated by the fact that you can do nothing useful,' Snape laid a delicate stress on the word, 'for the Order.'
It was Sirius's turn to flush. Snape's lip curled in triumph as he turned to Harry.

1. Even before they know of Harry's presence there is an atmosphere of mutual dislike, they glare in opposite directions as if they had already been at odds over something but had reached a pause in the quarrel. And there's a letter in front of Sirius. From Dumbledore, telling him about the necessity of the lessons?

2. When Harry arrives, Snape seems to want to talk business and tells Harry to sit down to deliver his message. Sirius interferes - with an unnecessary comment, in my opinion -, and Harry sits down next to Sirius opposite Snape - clearly taking sides, showing his preference for one over the other. Snape obviously notices this (note the curl of his mouth) and seems to imply that Sirius has no business being there since he (Snape) has been set a task to fulfil. Sirius contradicts, Snape refers to Dumbledore and includes a bait for Sirius which he jumps upon. Snape gets his little triumph, then proceeds to talk business to Harry and deliver his message. That done, he's about to leave until Sirius calls him back.

'I am in rather a hurry, Black. Unlike you, I do not have unlimited leisure time.'
'I'll get to the point then,' said Sirius, standing up. He was rather taller than Snape who, Harry noticed, balled his fist in the pocket of his cloak over what Harry was sure was the handle of his wand. 'If I hear you're using these Occlumency lessons to give Harry a hard time, you'll have me to answer to.'
'How touching,' Snape sneered. 'But surely you have noticed that Potter is very much like his father?'
'Yes, I have,' said Sirius proudly.
'Well then, you'll know he's so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him,' Snape sais sleekly.
Sirius pushed his chair roughly aside, pulling out his wand as he went. Snape whipped out his own.

3. Snape is about to leave and stresses this again, if with a slight jab at Sirius. Sirius, in turn, raises to his full height, apparently with the intention to intimidate Snape - and we see Snape react to it, preparing for defense. (According to Phineas Nigellus on p.437, "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks." With the first Shack scene and SWM in mind, I can easily see how Snape would have risked his neck in a face-off with Sirius, and he must have been aware of that too.)

4. Sirius throws his suspicion at Snape that he'll just use the lessons to "give Harry a hard time" (which we will see later Snape doesn't, he's rather more civil than in Potions instead). Note that he never questions the necessity of the Occlumency lessons itself - due to the letter? -, "only" of Snape teaching them. Unfortunately his suspicion is not only wrong but unconstructive too, in the way it's brought across.

5. Snape throws his view of the Harry/James similarity at him in turn. Sirius gets his wand out, and only now do we see Snape get out his too. (Defense again.)

'Sirius!' Harry said loudly, but Sirius appeared not to hear him.
(...)
Sirius raised his wand.
'NO!' Harry yelled, vaulting over the table and trying to get in between them. 'Sirius, don't!'
'Are you trying to call me a coward?' roared Sirius, trying to push Harry out of the way, but Harry would not budge.
'Why, yes, I suppose I am,' said Snape.
'Harry - get - out - of - it!' snarled Sirius, pushing him aside with his free hand.
The kitchen door opened (...)

6. This is interesting. Up till now Harry has been - literally - on Sirius's side. But when he realizes that Sirius is beyond reason, he changes his location to a position between both Sirius and Snape - again literally, even across an obstacle - and refuses to budge. Quite reminiscent of Lily in the Pensieve scene, IMHO, even if in the end it's only the Weasleys' arrival which actually ends the confrontation.

Both Sirius and Snape lowered their wands. Harry looked from one to the other. Each wore an expression of utmost contempt, yet the unexpected entrance of so many witnesses seemed to have brought them to their senses. Snape pocketed his wand, turned on his heel and swept back across the kitchen, passing the Weasleys without comment. At the door he looked back.
'Six o'clock, Monday evening, Potter.'
And he was gone. Sirius glared after him, his wand at his side.
'What's been going on?' asked Mr Weasley again.
'Nothing, Arthur,' said Sirius, who was breathing heavily as though he had just run a long distance. 'Just a friendly little chat between two old school friends.' (...)

7. This too is interesting. In this almost-fight Snape was the second to draw his wand, and he's the first to pocket it again before he leaves. Then he doesn't linger but leaves at once - without any storming or slamming: He just curtly reinforces his message to Harry on the threshold and is gone. Sirius, in turn, is all worked up and still has his wand out even after Snape has already left the scene of the "friendly chat".

I wonder what Snape thought when he passed the Weasleys "without comment"? Relief, anger about a missed opportunity, shame at realizing that he has almost lost control in front of witnesses when all he had to do was deliver a message?

What a pleasure to read these last posts on this thread! Isn't it incredible that we can still find new things in old scenes we have discussed so often. I love it! :clap:

Serpentine: I love your analysis of the kitchen scene between Snape and Harry! I especially enjoyed this point:


'Sirius!' Harry said loudly, but Sirius appeared not to hear him.
(...)
Sirius raised his wand.
'NO!' Harry yelled, vaulting over the table and trying to get in between them. 'Sirius, don't!'
'Are you trying to call me a coward?' roared Sirius, trying to push Harry out of the way, but Harry would not budge.
'Why, yes, I suppose I am,' said Snape.
'Harry - get - out - of - it!' snarled Sirius, pushing him aside with his free hand.
The kitchen door opened (...)
This is interesting. Up till now Harry has been - literally - on Sirius's side. But when he realizes that Sirius is beyond reason, he changes his location to a position between both Sirius and Snape - again literally, even across an obstacle - and refuses to budge. Quite reminiscent of Lily in the Pensieve scene, IMHO, even if in the end it's only the Weasleys' arrival which actually ends the confrontation.
That analysis really ties things together, past and present, older generation and younger generation. :tu: Harry is really Lily's son in that scene, but perhaps also James's son, since James saved Snape's life from the Whomping Willow, and Sirius was responsible for that, too.

What strikes me in that scene is the moment when Harry realizes that Sirius is out of control, like an defensive "attack dog" who thinks he is "protecting" Harry, when really Harry doesn't need protecting from Snape. What I always think when I read that part is that when Harry suddenly says "Sirius," it's almost as if he's mumbling "Serious," as in, "this is getting serious." I think that might be an intentional double meaning.

7. This too is interesting. In this almost-fight Snape was the second to draw his wand, and he's the first to pocket it again before he leaves. Then he doesn't linger but leaves at once - without any storming or slamming: He just curtly reinforces his message to Harry on the threshold and is gone. Sirius, in turn, is all worked up and still has his wand out even after Snape has already left the scene of the "friendly chat".
Great point about Sirius still having his wand out - I never thought of that before. Wow. If Sirius could have left the house, the fight might have continued into the alley, and we might have had a real "duel" over Harry's Occlumency. But once again, Snape knows when to walk away, and he does.
I wonder what Snape thought when he passed the Weasleys "without comment"? Relief, anger about a missed opportunity, shame at realizing that he has almost lost control in front of witnesses when all he had to do was deliver a message?
All of that, especially looking so childish in front of the whole Weasley family, many of whom are his students. Notice that he doesn't make a barbed comment about what they were doing. He could have said something like, "Potter's dear Godfather seems anxious to teach him how to become another hothead." :p A lesser writer would have let Snape have a last sarcastic word so he would sound just like Phineas Nigellus. It must have been hard for JKR to restrain herself, lol. Instead, she lets Snape stay true to the character, and Subtle's "anger model" and Snape walks away without comment.

I assume he thought of killing him with his bare hands, muggle way. He was angry enough. In fact, he almost succeded while they were having the fight, before Sirius could explain. Of course, I doubt he would have made it in the end.. cold-blooded murder by strangling or something. I don't think Harry was planning a way to kill Sirius when he said "I'm going to kill him".

I agree, because wasn't Harry already strangling Sirius out of anger?
Sirius, of course, never gets any further chance to mature; in fact, I think he regresses in OotP. The whole series is, obviously, about Harry's maturation. And Snape is the work in progress. Like Lupin, he shoulders a tremendous burden--in Snape's case, for the Order...and the most reaction we've seen from him about it are his responses to Dumbledore at the end of GoF and to Harry's "That's your job" shot in OotP. Otherwise, he just does what he does without much acknowledgment and certainly no complaint. However, he's stuck in that Marauder past; he has yet to resolve that--the plot point that still hangs. As a character, his disadvantage is that he is so not a nice person; not only do we see much more of him than we do Lupin, but his personality failings stand out that much more sharply because he simply is not a pleasant person.
I was reading a quote from Gary Oldman the other day. He has only one scene in the fireplace in Goblet of Fire (too bad), but he says he'll be "featured" in Order of the Phoenix and it will be "his movie." Let's hope he doesn't turn into the "Squishy Pod-Person Sirius." They need to let him keep his flaws, even if they make him seem more heroic.
And as for Occlumency--my favorite stuff in the books. It's the perfect example of Snape As Teacher. Is he nice? No. Is he nurturing and caring and coddling? Are you kidding?!? But he's thorough and professional and clear, in a totally no-nonsense way. He's acerbic and demanding; he's never satisfied with anything. And--the latter is exacerbated by the fact that Harry doesn't pull his own weight: that's what makes Snape lose it in the lessons: that Harry won't do it right (I don't think for one second that Snape doubts Harry's ability to do this--the comment about the Imperius Curse was an acknowledgment of Harry's ability and a veiled compliment) or even try, despite how vital this work is.
Those scenes are written very carefully and are so full of information about both Snape and Harry. I still remember the first time I read the first lesson. I was tired and I had been up half the night, but when I got to that scene I was so thrilled with it that I stood up and actually paced the floor while I was reading, lol. Not my ordinary reaction to a book! When I realized that Legillimency meant that Snape would see all of Harry's childhood memories, I couldn't believe that JKR had given us a scene of such magnitude between these two characters. Who would have expected it? All the speculation had been about Sirius and Lupin as father-figures, who would get to know Harry better. Instead - wow! I'll never forget it.

Despite the fact that Harry had jinxes Snape and had seen some of Snapes memories, he still pushes on with the lesson. For someone like Snape, to whom privacy seems very important, he still goes on. It must be even more difficult to have Harry in class, knowing what he has seen. Wondering if he is talking to his friends, telling him about Snape being vunerable. Because of all the views we have of Snape, up till that point, none of them have been vunerable. Yet, he continues trying to teach Harry. The personal risk he is undergoing must include the idea that Harry will see things that might change his view of Snape.
Great points! It's just as dangerous for Snape, if the lessons are discovered, than it is for Harry, yet they make it through weeks of lessons. If Harry had been learning as he should, Snape really would have been more vulnerable. As it is, most of the lessons are one-sided, with Snape seeing all of Harry's memories of Dudley (how awful!) and Harry only getting a few glimpses into Snape's past. Of course, Snape's most vulnerable memories were in the Pensieve, so when Harry takes the dive, that is when Occlumency has to stop, since it is just too private.

I imagine Occlumency lessons would have halted if Harry had learned to search more through Snape's memories to see more of his past. It would have happened more naturally, though, with memories left in Snape's mind, and Snape could have told Dumbledore that Harry was trained as an Occlumens. There wouldn't have been any anger between them, because Snape assumes that Harry will see some of his memories. Instead, Harry does the sneaky, curious cat thingy and breaks trust with Snape - too bad for their relationship, but good for the reader, and in some ways, good for Harry, since he sees things he never would have known about. But the trust with Snape was broken.

Harry sees it as Snape enjoying the insult; I've always seen it as Snape's pulling himself back--he just stepped out of line. It's not going to be helpful if he lets his temper get the best of him (note the glittering eyes) and he begins the lessons by verbally flaying Harry....So he stops dead, regroups, and answers Harry's question in a more civilized manner. Had he not done that--proceeded to explain what Harry wanted to know, in detail, I would've agreed with Harry's assessment. But Snape goes on for a paragraph, in a quite different manner from the opening skirmishes they've already had: he drops the antagonism and goes into real teacher mode.
Subtle - I had heard of the Harry Filter earlier , but that Occlumency example that you recently provided really made me realise what you were going on about . Its effects are really wonderful , I would not , in a million years , have seen that Snape might have actually been using that minute's gap tp regroup , and not to savour any insults. Thanks for that view !
I've never seen that "pause of enjoyment" without the Harry Filter, either, Subtle! Awesome example of Snape stopping himself at the brink of sarcasm. :)

I like your point about Snape in "Teacher Mode." For those who say that Snape is a terrible teacher and is incapable of doing a good job, they should read that scene again. I find it very professional and really "understanding" for Snape as a character. He's demanding - absolutely. But he gives Harry alot of feedback about what is happening and answers his questions without being too impatient. I really like that.

I could probably write another four paragraphs on all these points, but I'll pull myself back "from the edge" just as Snape does, lol. Great posts, everyone!

You know, I don't find Snape's walking out to be childish...He does it, that I can think of, three times in PoA, each time when he's having it out with Dumbledore. The first time, in the Great Hall, he leaves after Dumbledore; the other two times are at the end, when his temper is completely undone. I find it actually to be a bit mature--it's not that he walking out while Dumbledore is in mid-sentence (which would be quite baby-ish!); each time, he's been dismissed and, rather than continue the fight, he walks away. He yields to Dumbledore--he's not happy one bit; he's fuming each time, but he walks away....It's not the fact that he's walking out, it's how he does it.. I can see heavy angry strides and hear the door slam! A grown-up attitude would have been more controlled, maybe even a bit of a mock-bow. But maybe that's just me..Yeah, I guess it can be interpreted either way. It says he "turned on his heel" and "marched" out of the room, which gave me the impression of lots of emotions, and storming out in a childish manner, but it could be otherwise. Ah, the wonderful thing about literature, as opposed to film.
I'd just like to point that I see it not as 'childish' or 'immature' which kind of imply bad behavior. However, I still see it as very child-like. I said earlie that to me it sounded as if he was overwhelmed, almost as if he couldn't be sure that he wasn't about cry. Usually he sweeps out of a room with the use of the words 'marched' out, I was picturing almost a wrapping himself in a kind of 'brittle' control, a very 'stiff' way of walking or holding himself. Leaving before he could break.

When DD says 'his memory is as good as ever' after Snape's 'you haven't forgotten he tried to kill me' (both paraphrased). It;s as good as saying at that moment 'Yes, I remember what happened and I still prefer them, no matter how much you've done for me'. It's enough to break your heart. I wish I could write a POV, unfortunately my talents don't lie in that direction.

ps - I'd just like to say how much I admire the posters on this thread. Not only is this thread just stuffed with intelligent thought and ideas sparking off others' ideas, but unlike some other threads here I'm not attacked for expressing my thoughts, even if you disagree with me. Sometimes it's quite frustrating to pour out what I think are well-reasoned ideas, only to have it followed by a 'no you're wrong' without any attempt to tell me why they might think so. I can't tell you how exciting I find this thread, but then maybe I don't need to do so. It seems to me that you value it too.

Great analysis, Serpentine--I've already read it three times!!!!! I thoroughly agree with your points. From the start, Sirius has an agenda: his comment to Snape about not giving orders in his house is ludicrous--except as bait for an argument.

What it made me think of--now that you really drew my attention to the scene--is that Sirius is chafing under Dumbledore's orders: in fact, he's got quite the attitude about Dumbledore throughout the novel; he makes no secret of his resentment of Dumbledore's orders. The key was the letter on the table: more orders from Dumbledore. I think we can safely assume that that's what the letter was about--rather like the order for Sirius and Snape to shakes hands at the end of GoF. Sirius immediately turns around and tries to establish his dominance by rebuking Snape for giving an "order" in his house. Throughout the scene, he's trying to get the upper hand, finally resorting to undermining Snape as a teacher in front of Harry. Even the calling back is part of it--Snape can't leave on his terms, without Sirius having a say-so and another chance to win.

It's similar to the stunt he pulls the first night Harry is at 12GP: despite Dumbledore's orders to withhold information from Harry, Sirius virtually makes Harry ask questions: "You know, I'm surprised at you. I thought the first thing you'd do when you got here would be to start asking questions about Voldemort" (p. 87). Sirius is bored and resentful; he slaps back at Dumbledore by getting his way in this scene--getting the upper hand again in his own house.

hwyla--I agree: one way or the other, Snape walks out because he's going to break. I tend to think it's so he doesn't say anything he'd regret to "Dad"--it reflects his respect for Dumbledore, even in the midst of quarrelling with him. He's angry and lost his temper, but I get the feeling there's another level even beyond what we see--and he cuts himself off before he gets there....And, actually, it's not all that uncommon for people who have that degree of temper to be prone to tears at the height of the rage, which generally only exacerbates the fury...

And I agree with you about the tone of this thread...Agreement isn't necessary or expected, but I like how the regulars here can just have a civil conversation about various ideas, agreed or not. As I said earlier, I'm not even into the idea of "attack the post"--there's no reason to be attacking anything....And I love stuff like Serpentine's analysis, which, as silver ink pot points out, still shows us fresh insight by looking more closely at details. Okay--yeah, I know: that last sentence totally proved I'm an inveterate nerd. I can't help it.....

Last but not least (I, too, could just keep rambling)--I love that Occlumency still presents Snape in character. While he can and does teach, and he's quite good and thorough about it to boot, he's still not nice. He's harsh, even in his encouragement and his praise; this is a guy who not only doesn't show any soft edges, but may not have any (although--he can never live down the poetry of his speech on the first day of Potions class). I mean, to this man, "Well, for a first attempt that was not as poor as it might have been" (p. 535) is downright effusive.

Serpentine, all I can say is WOW! What a brilliant breakdown of the kitchen scene; points I had never thought of, you found and brought out. Snape does seem to be just doing his job and wanting to leave, but Sirius eggs him into "sparring". Snape is not the same "Snivellus" that he was in Hogwarts. I wonder if Sirius ever considered that? That Snape would be more than capable of defending himself this time around.
And hwyla, never fear posting your thoughts; I always find them well-thought out, even when I disagree. I try to never tell people their wrong, just post my counter-point. I rarely have them with you, if I remember correctly? (of course, I'm getting older and this peri-menopause wreaks havoc on my short-term memory;))Stick around, we need people of all view points. I know that there have been posts that have changed my opinion on some things. So, stay, we love you!

I also agree with your idea that Snape may not, himself, ever deceived Dumbledore. The only lie we see him committing in the books is his pretended loyalty to Voldemort; otherwise, he is thoroughly upfront. That's not really the sort of trait one suddenly acquires; that tends to be very much a nearly ingrained behavior....Which is a contributing factor, then, to his being so furious that people who are lying get away with it. And it is consistent with the whole Legilimency/Occlumency study--the obscure branches of magic.
Yes, I agree. I think Snape "bared his soul", so to speak, when he came to Dumbledore. I also don't think it is in Snape's character to deal well with people he perceives as hypocrites.

That's what I meant by "encouragement". Lupin's polite attitude (and Snape's at that) in PoA have made a difference in the end, so it might look like the right way to go about things: having a new reason to be on the same side and trust each other enhances mending of the cut, hence the remark, when it goes horribly wrong, that "some cuts run too deep". Evidently Snape's grudge with Lupin wasn't as deep as the grudge with James and Sirius. That's why Severus can, supposedly, have a conversation with Lupin, but only quarrels with Sirius.
Lupin, as a bystander, seems to disapprove of the Marauders actions. So any personal dislike that Snape feels towards Lupin is probably directed at the WW incident. I have wondered if Snape thought that Lupin was in on the "joke" and it took some explaining of the situation to Snape to clear that up.

I love reading the analysis of this scene by all of you fiction writers! I can see it from every point of view, and you are all persuasive. But I think my view of the scene is closer to Subtles. When I read the word "march," I see someone who is indignant and unapologetic. To me, Snape's body language is that he is angry at Dumbledore and both of them know why, so there is no reason to argue. Walking out is the statement of his anger, and the fact that he doesn't stand there and argue with Dumbledore any further is a sign that he is in control of himself.
I agree with this interpretation of Snape's actions.

With Sirius, both with Molly and Snape, I think the problem is that he can't stand to lose an argument--or anything, for that matter. He wins with Molly--although she does fire off the extremely Snape-like shot about Azkaban (it may, also like Snape's comments, be nasty...but it's also quite accurate). He loses with Snape, which is indicated by his drawing his wand first and resorting to the exceptionally rude, childish use of "Snivellus."
Well, I was going to answer this with a long, thought out post, but then I read Serpentine and Subtle's further comments and I decided that they had done a much better job than I can, so, yes, what they said.

Thank you for the call to order, clkginny.
Doing my part to bring further dissent to the thread ;-)

And as for Occlumency--my favorite stuff in the books. It's the perfect example of Snape As Teacher. Is he nice? No. Is he nurturing and caring and coddling? Are you kidding?!? But he's thorough and professional and clear, in a totally no-nonsense way. He's acerbic and demanding; he's never satisfied with anything. And--the latter is exacerbated by the fact that Harry doesn't pull his own weight: that's what makes Snape lose it in the lessons: that Harry won't do it right (I don't think for one second that Snape doubts Harry's ability to do this--the comment about the Imperius Curse was an acknowledgment of Harry's ability and a veiled compliment) or even try, despite how vital this work is.
I mentioned on Decon during the little go-around that this is the only time we truly see Snape as a teacher, not a DE acting like a teacher. It does give little evaluative scenes as far as his abilities because Harry chooses not to cooperate. What a pity.

....hwyla, never fear posting your thoughts; I always find them well-thought out, even when I disagree. I try to never tell people their wrong, just post my counter-point. I rarely have them with you, if I remember correctly? (of course, I'm getting older and this peri-menopause wreaks havoc on my short-term memory;))Stick around, we need people of all view points. I know that there have been posts that have changed my opinion on some things. So, stay, we love you!Don't worry, I've never felt that way on this thread, my problems have been on a different thread. I LOVE it here on DevOfSev!

I too want to add that was a great post Serpentine! Lots to think about. For one thing, I had always 'assumed' the letter mentioned at the start of the scene was from DD explaining to Sirius that he wanted Snape to teach Harry & please play nice (very similar situation to forcing Sirius & Snape to shake hands) - I hadn't even thought about it might also include reminders to please stay at home, anfd don't tell Harry anything. Shows us that the way he treats Snape here is partly to reassert his 'rules don't apply to me' attitude. Out of the 3 ways to rebel, provoking Snape is probably the one he feels safest doing, especially if he still believes DD will side with him over Snape in any 'fight' that breaks out.

Originally posted by clkginny: this is the only time we truly see Snape as a teacher

Definately! He is doing real teaching here; still with no sublety, but really teaching. Allowing himself to be vunerable. How is must have burned him when DD asked him to do this, knowing Harry would see some of his memories. And Harry did, even before the pensieve dive. Yet he pushes on and once again, Harry lets Snape down. He doesn't practice like he should. And like SIP said, after the pensieve dive, whatever trust they may have built is gone. Trust is important to Snape; that's why he is on DDs side Even when DD doesn't listen to him. I do think that Snape sees DD as more a father-figure or mentor than Harry does. He holds DD in very high esteem. Even to risk being found out by LV by giving the Occ lessons. For DD and the greater good.

I love that Occlumency still presents Snape in character. While he can and does teach, and he's quite good and thorough about it to boot, he's still not nice. He's harsh, even in his encouragement and his praise; this is a guy who not only doesn't show any soft edges, but may not have any (although--he can never live down the poetry of his speech on the first day of Potions class). I mean, to this man, "Well, for a first attempt that was not as poor as it might have been" (p. 535) is downright effusive.

OK, I love all the scenes with Snape in them, but the kitchen scene ans Occlumency are the best so far (with the "Give me a reason" line in POA, so sad that wasn't in the movie). Snape is just so delightfully complex, he's got such an unbelievably dry wit, it's great. He's very deliberate; every word he uses is carefully chosen and used for a reason.
What bugs me in Occlumency is that Snape, though obviously trying to behave himself, has to deal with Captain Emotion, Harry. He complains that Snape isn't properly teaching him, and that he's got to watch all these memories, wha wha wha. Snape, on the other hand, is keeping it well together with only the occasional comment or chewing Harry when he's not doing well enough.
Actually, that brings up a good point. Snape only really loses his patience when it becomes obvious that Harry isn't trying at Occlumency, much less caring to practice. Snape berates him for being lousy and not caring, making him "easy prey for the Dark Lord." Snape knows how important these lessons are, and though the Harry filter is on, maybe this is Snape's way of showing he actually cares. :wow:

I do think Snape cares--not about Harry, per se, but about succeeding in the fight against Voldemort. He perceives Harry as undisciplined and careless in everything; however, these two traits could prove deadly in a Legilimency/Occlumency face off between Harry and Voldemort. Consider what would happen to Snape if he approached Voldemort without discipline and care...

Harry, so far as Snape can see, can't even be bothered to read all of the directions for a potion. He can't even be bothered to do something that would help himself: practice clearing his mind each night. All he cares about is Quidditch and roaming the school out of bounds. He will be mincemeat in the final showdown.

Of course, Harry comes to the Occlumency classes with a hatred of Snape that was formed by a misunderstanding (the pain in his scar at the Opening Feast in PS/SS--Harry still hasn't figured out that one) and Snape's attack during the first Potions class. Harry's resentment was supported and fueled by Sirius' behavior in the kitchen of 12GP, which really ensured that Harry would have the worst attitude possible about the lessons. Snape may loathe Harry, but he's willing to put it aside for the duration of the lessons--he'll do what he's got to do. Harry, on the other hand, doesn't. If only Sirius had spoken to Harry as Lupin did about the lessons..."Harry, I know you don't like Snape, but he is a superb Occlumens and we all--Sirius included--want you to learn to protect yourself, so work hard, all right?" (p. 527, US hardcover)

Originally posted by 23DuelsaDay: Snape knows how important these lessons are, and though the Harry filter is on, maybe this is Snape's way of showing he actually cares.

What a good point! But I don't think he necessarily cares about Harry, but Harry learning what he needs to. He cares about keeping Harry safe. But Snape caring at all is a mind-blowing thought!

I think the whole James vs. Severus battle and the fact that Snape obviously sees James in Harry (like Sirius) - keeps the prospect of Snape caring personnally for Harry out of the picture.
But I agree, Snape does care about the Cause.

I think we aren't giving Snape enough credit as a teacher. Not on the academic level, but the fact that he has worked with a lot of 15/16 year olds in the past 14 years. He has to realize that Harry is bound to be a little irresponsible because well... he is young. :rotfl: (Please don't take offense if you are 15 :D) Yet, he has to fight that irresposiblity, just as many high school teachers in muggle world do. ("Do your homework." "Study!" "Be to class on TIME!")
What is frustrating Snape so much is that they don't have the time to slowly teach Harry to mature. Harry needed to learn immediately and he wasn't. :sad:

What I can't help but wonder is if DD or Voldemort taught Snape Occlu. and Legil.???
Snape seems to think that learning through experience is best (attack over and over and eventually he'll get it) why didn't Snape tell Harry How to block his mind?

I thought this was important development in his character - we've never actually seen Snape teach Harry. Why does Snape approach the lesson the way he did? Did Snape have a rather tough time with his teacher? I think it is important who taught Snape Occlu. - because DD does things with good intentions and Voldy evil intentions. :evil: What were Snape's true intentions when he didn't fully explain to Harry how to practice Occlu. in the lesson.

I had a thought about SWM after reading a bit on the Celtic Myths thread. This is really Norse myth, but I'm beginning to connect the upside-down hex with Odin hanging upside-down on Ydrasgil (sp?) tree (also shades of the hanged man in tarot, but I don't really have any knowledge about tarot to go on with that). The whole point of Odin hanging upside-down was to gain wisdon (perhaps it's about a new perspective).

I'm glad someone caught this, otherwise I never would have.

I have about 2 or 3 years of experience with the tarot. The hanged man is a part of the major arcana and is therefore one of the turning points in any tarot reading. Depending upon the context of the reading, it's meaning can range from the extreme positive to the extreme negative.

Before I go into analyzing how this tarot card works in relation with Snape's life, I'll describe how the card from the Rider-Waite deck looks like. It depicts a young man hanging upside down from a tree shaped like the crucifix. The man's head is surrounded by a bright halo, suggesting qualities that may be compared with a saint. The right leg is suspended by the tree, whereas the left leg is bent and crosses over the right leg (forming the shape of a number four). This imagery, as hwyla has stated, looks very similar to the upsidedown position James put Snape in in OotP.

As has been described, the hanged man may be interpretted as a person gaining new wisdom from a different perspective. When this card (in it's upright position) is used to describe a person it means, interestingly enough, that the person has the clearest vision of truth, and yet is frequently looked upon by others with RIDICULE. Sounds familiar?

However, and I think this fits perfectly with Snape in the SWM incident, the hanged man may (in the upsidedown position) also represent a time of a choice between two extremes. It may indicate a time of transition, of choice, between two paths. If the hanged man were to appear over the significator (the center card in the celtic cross tarot; Snape at this time would be represented through the Page of Swords) this would mean that in the present, the person will shift from a indecisive position in life to a more aggressive and volatile position.

This is exactly what happened AFTER SWM. As Subtle Science has written elsewhere on this forum, the SWM incident was a turning point for everyone. James and Snape, in particular, experienced the hanged man. It was at this point that James saw that what was happening was wrong, and it was at this point that Snape was pushed to the limit. The relationship between them reverses. James goes on the defensive while Snape assumes the aggressive. It's only after Snape realizes the inherent evil of the DE that he experiences another turning point that can be described as the hanged man in the upright position (again, when the hanged man is upside down, it implies negative aspects of the card will appear in the person's life. When the hanged man is right-side-up, it implies that the positives aspects- gained wisdom- will appear).

Thus, Snape experiences the kind of epiphany James underwent in their fifth year of schooling.

As an interesting side note, the tree depicted in the hanged man is in the shape of a crucifx. It signifies a person who is capable of blindness as well as a person with latent martyrdom. Beyond that, the tree happens to be a yew, which is the kind of wood used to make Voldemort's wand.

As childish as this might sound, I have performed some tarot readings in regards to the Harry Potter novels (and frequently Snape). I was shocked to find that before I read book five, I asked the tarot "What will we learn of Snape's past?" I drew out three cards to represent the past, present, and future.

The past was the five of cups. I cannot begin to express how unnerved I was when I read Snape putting three memories in the pensieve. This is why: the five of cups depicts a man wearing a black clock with his head bowed towards the earth. Before him, three cups are toppled over, while two remain standing behind him. The meaning of the card is suppsed to describe regret and loss over the three toppled cups (one of those cups could represent the memory and the regret of SWM?). However, there is hope in spite of the pain because of the two cups that remain standing. If I had to extrapolate, I would say that one of those cups represents Dumbledore.

The present was, get this, the Wheel of Fortune. I really hate this card because it makes readings vague. Nevertheless it means continuous change, evolution, growth. The image of the card depicts a wheel balanced by Anubis, the Sphinx, and a snake, which are surrounded by the four wisdoms (the angel, the eagel, the winged ox, and the winged lion). In context to the card before it (the five of cups) this card describes that in the present, Snape is developing a better understanding of who is in the world and his purpose in it. With that understanding, he is better equipped to fulfill his destiny.

The future was the Six of Wands, which means triumph and glory after battle and struggle (yay!). The image of the card is self-explanatory enough. A soldier, wearing a red cloak and a crown of lorals, rides a white horse surrounded by followers and supporters. The wand he carries also has a reef of lorals attached.

Sorry I went on this spiel. I couldn't help myself. It's all so interesting.

Interesting analysis, My Blood Is Ink.The present was, get this, the Wheel of Fortune. I really hate this card because it makes readings vague. Nevertheless it means continuous change, evolution, growth. The image of the card depicts a wheel balanced by Anubis, the Sphinx, and a snake, which are surrounded by the four wisdoms (the angel, the eagel, the winged ox, and the winged lion). In context to the card before it (the five of cups) this card describes that in the present, Snape is developing a better understanding of who is in the world and his purpose in it. With that understanding, he is better equipped to fulfill his destiny.I'm not sure that this really fits Snape in OotP, though. It doesn't seem to me that Snape is unsure of his position and mission prior to OotP and gains this understanding during OotP. Wouldn't this prediction better fit Harry?

Wow! My_Blood_Is_Ink Thanks for the Tarot info. ...the hanged man may be interpretted as a person gaining new wisdom from a different perspectiveVery interesting that it has a similar meaning to the idea of Odin gain wisdom on the tree. Must come out of a similar thought pattern back in the mists of time. ...that the person has the clearest vision of truth, and yet is frequently looked upon by others with RIDICULEWell that certainly agrees with my thoughts about Snape's epiphany while upside-down about how the general public questions his right to exist. ...the person will shift from a indecisive position in life to a more aggressive and volatile positionWell if SWM turns out to be the first time he called someone mud-blood, that would certainly fit.

Just one thing more - don't remember if I mentioned it when I posted before. I also see this as an eye-opener/new perspective for Harry. Once again one situation symbolic for both generations.

Interesting analysis, My Blood Is Ink.I'm not sure that this really fits Snape in OotP, though. It doesn't seem to me that Snape is unsure of his position and mission prior to OotP and gains this understanding during OotP. Wouldn't this prediction better fit Harry?
I was thinking the same thing as I wrote the description for the Wheel of Fortune. That's part of the reason, as I've expressed, as to why I hate this card so much. It's the tarot decks way of saying: things are happening, and I'm not going to tell you exactly what. The same applies with the fool card, depending upon it's location in the celtic cross.

It works, if you look at it this way: Snape's sense of morality is what's developing and growing here.

Also, I didn't arbitrarily choose the Wheel of Fortune for him. The shuffling did. I do remember that one of the cards I pulled when I asked about Harry was the Sun. Sadly, since I don't 'like' him as much as Snape (hehe) my memory is shady as to what position the Sun landed in.

hwyla, I'm glad that helped. The thing with tarot is that it's origins spreads throughout most of Europe. It isn't surprising that a lot of symbolism leaks from culture to the next.

My Blood is Ink: I think the Tarot is fascinating, and I used to own a deck about 20 years ago.

Here is the Hanged Man card:

http://www.maljonicsdreams.com/images/tarot/tarot_the_hanged_man.jpg

On another thread, can't remember which one, I once made a list of people who were "suspended" or literally hung upside down in the books. Luckily I saved it in an e-mail for just such an occasion!:)

Upside-Down List

*Neville is hung upside down by Uncle Algie out the window in SS/PS
*Mrs. Norris is hung by her tail in the hallway in CoS
*Filch wants to hang students "upside down" by their ankles CoS
*Peeves is floating upside down when he finds petrified Justin and NHNick in CoS
*Ron is dragged under the Whomping Willow upside down in PoA
*The family tormented by the DEs is hung upside down in the air in GoF
*Draco threatens to turn Hermione upside down in the air
*Harry turns upside down in the Maze in GoF
*Luna has the Quibbler turned upside down to read the runes
*Snape, of course, in "Snape's Worst Memory"
*Hagrid when he goes to see the giants gets hung upside down
*Trelawney gets thrown down the stairs, with her trunks upside down. by Umbridge in OotP

Believe me, I'm looking forward to seeing that symbol again. I think it is indicative of being at another person's mercy.

Hagrid and Snape have nearly parallel experiences. Hagrid is rescued from being upside down by Olympe, while Snape is nearly rescued by Lily. Either way, the parallel of James as a bad guy is clear, as he plays the same role as the DEs in GoF who turn the muggles upside down, and as the horrible giant king, who has cut off the head of his rival and attacks Hagrid even after he has given him a gift from Dumbledore. Very interesting parallels there. :huh:

I know a little something about the Tarot and its symbolism. Being turned upside down could also be part of the Wheel of Fortune, which has some people on top and some on the bottom, and you can never tell when your fortune is going to change. Harry's life in Book One, going from a kid who had nothing to being a rich and famous wizard, is under the influence of the Wheel of Fortune, in my opinion.

http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/tarot.gif

I never realized how many strange images there are on that card! One looks like the "wolf man," and then there is a snake, a sphinx, an angel, and other creatures.

I've never seen that card as so negative, though. I see it as something like, "Expect the Unexpected," or "Fate." There is no other "Fate" card in the tarot, so that's how I think of it.

Finally, here is the Five of Cups, which is not a great card, and implies bad luck and unhappiness. Cups are the symbol of emotion, and five isn't a lucky number, usually having some sort of misfortune associated with it. It really could be Snape, couldn't it? Or even Harry, with the dark hair.

http://home13.inet.tele.dk/anne/images/fivecups.jpg

I think JKR has studied the Tarot, or at least the images on the cards of the major arcana. Somewhere there is actually a "Tarot Thread" on which we discussed the different groups ~ cups, wands, pentacles(coins), and swords ~ and which houses they corresponded to.

Wands is representative of fire (because wood burns) and therefore, I think Wands represents Gryffindor. However, we also see the "Sword" of Gryffindor in Book Two. So I've never been sure about that.

Slytherin, with Snape as Potions Master, seems represented by Cups, which indicate water and emotions. With the Pensieve and Occlumency, as well as the Chamber of Secrets, Slytherin seems to fit that category. However, cups have a generally "good" connotation that Slytherin doesn't have, so there is a grey area there for me as well.

Here is a link with all the cards, meanings, pictures:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/index.htm

It works, if you look at it this way: Snape's sense of morality is what's developing and growing here. I don't see Snape's morality as changing during OotP, either. Is there a particular incident you had in mind?Also, I didn't arbitrarily choose the Wheel of Fortune for him. The shuffling did.Yes, I understood that. I didn't mean to imply that I thought you'd picked the Wheel of Fortune because you felt it fit him. :)

question? could it be that snape had more memories in his pensieve but snape pulled harry out before he couls see them??

question? could it be that snape had more memories in his pensieve but snape pulled harry out before he couls see them??Yes, I think that makes a lot of sense! When Harry watched Snape put his memories into the Pensieve, I think there were at least 3 "memory strands" that he saw.

What I can't help but wonder is if DD or Voldemort taught Snape Occlu. and Legil.???
Snape seems to think that learning through experience is best (attack over and over and eventually he'll get it) why didn't Snape tell Harry How to block his mind?
Snape did. He told Harry that it was pretty much like blocking/breaking the Imperious Curse. When Harry does use Occlumency, it is described in a similar way. (BTW-FakeMoody never did tell Harry how to break the Imperious Curse, either. I think it may be one of those things that isn't readily explainable)

question? could it be that snape had more memories in his pensieve but snape pulled harry out before he couls see them??
He is decribed as putting three memories in the pensieve, so, yes, I think that there were more memories in there.

Love the discussion about Tarot, guys! I can't remember, it's been too many years since I played around with a deck, but aren't swords given a more negative connotation? (In my mind I have always associated Snape with swords)

I'm going to have to rummage through my closet and see if I can find my deck.

Yes Crookshanks11 - Harry saw Snape put 3 memories in the penseive. I've always thought those other two were the Werewolf Prank, And the receiving of the Dark Mark. No canon on that, just a guess.

I've come to think that he put those memories in there not only to keep them from Harry, but also the to avoid reliving them himself. The 'reliving' was part of what Harry hated about learning occlumency - it wasn't the worst part, but it was part of it. So I think itwas true for Snape as well. Snape expected Harry to break back into his mind, it's probably much more difficult to occlude your mind WHILE legillimizing. He certainly couldn't remove all his bad memories, so I think he based it partly on embarassment, but mostly on the memories he least wanted to see again.

I think Snape uses occlumency not just to protect his memories/thoughts but also as part of his control over his emotions and so Snape is in an almost constant state of occlumency. Therefore those 3 memories don't plaque him as long as he is occluding, at least not on a conscious level, but they do affect him subconsciously. Constantly disassociating from your emotions leads to eventual explosions without letting of some emotion in smaller doses - hence he's bitter, angry, depressed.

Lunalove - I think part of the problem is that may be the only way you can teach occlumency. DD said he couldn't teach Harry himself because he thought it was too dangerous to 'further open Harry's mind in his presence'. Harry and Ron think Snape's purposively opening Harry's mind to VM. It's not like learning a charm where all you need is the correctly pronounciation with a certain thought behind it - like Ridicullous or Expecto Patronum. You don't just shout Occlumens! I think that since Snape said it was similar to Imperio that the only way to learn to fight Legillimency is by practicing resistance.

ooops! syncronized postings!

hywla, I like your point about Snape not wanting to remember these things either. We have memories that sit, undisturbed unless we bring them up. Snape may have these 3 "buried" but when the Occ lessons came up, he, too, may have wanted them out for safekeeping.
I know nothing about Tarot, so I'm out of the loop on that part of the discussion, but I've read it all and find it really fascinating.

Back to that lovely lesson on The Hanged Man tarot card... As an interesting side note, the tree depicted in the hanged man is in the shape of a crucifx. It signifies a person who is capable of blindness as well as a person with latent martyrdom. Beyond that, the tree happens to be a yew, which is the kind of wood used to make Voldemort's wand.And this ties back to our previous discussions about Snape and yew! I don't like the sound of that martyrdom tho' - I AM afraid that Snape's going to have to do the ultimate Gryffie and die saving someone (Harry, Ron or Lupin are my guesses) before Harry ever begins to see Snape as a good guy. Oh, I so hope he's only terribly injured instead, so he and Harry can actually work together after.

I've come to think that he put those memories in there not only to keep them from Harry, but also the to avoid reliving them himself. The 'reliving' was part of what Harry hated about learning occlumency - it wasn't the worst part, but it was part of it. So I think itwas true for Snape as well. Snape expected Harry to break back into his mind, it's probably much more difficult to occlude your mind WHILE legillimizing. He certainly couldn't remove all his bad memories, so I think he based it partly on embarassment, but mostly on the memories he least wanted to see again.
I think you bring up a good point, here. Without knowing what the memories are, it is hard to judge the reasons that he might have put them in the pensieve; however, this seems a very logical reason to have put them inside it.


ooops! syncronized postings!
Occupational hazard?

Love the discussion about Tarot, guys! I can't remember, it's been too many years since I played around with a deck, but aren't swords given a more negative connotation? (In my mind I have always associated Snape with swords)
Swords do generally have a negative connotation as I recall. I've always thought the worst card is the nine of swords - the "dark night of the soul" card. :scared:

http://images.facade.com/i/t/aquatic/l/r59.jpg

The eight of swords shows a woman surrounded by swords and blindfolded, and the ten of swords shows a man stabbed by ten swords. Ouch!

Yes Crookshanks11 - Harry saw Snape put 3 memories in the penseive. I've always thought those other two were the Werewolf Prank, And the receiving of the Dark Mark. No canon on that, just a guess.
:tu: Good guesses!
I've come to think that he put those memories in there not only to keep them from Harry, but also the to avoid reliving them himself. The 'reliving' was part of what Harry hated about learning occlumency - it wasn't the worst part, but it was part of it. So I think itwas true for Snape as well. Snape expected Harry to break back into his mind, it's probably much more difficult to occlude your mind WHILE legillimizing. He certainly couldn't remove all his bad memories, so I think he based it partly on embarassment, but mostly on the memories he least wanted to see again.
Very interesting idea, Hwyla! I like that.
Lunalove - I think part of the problem is that may be the only way you can teach occlumency. DD said he couldn't teach Harry himself because he thought it was too dangerous to 'further open Harry's mind in his presence'. Harry and Ron think Snape's purposively opening Harry's mind to VM. It's not like learning a charm where all you need is the correctly pronounciation with a certain thought behind it - like Ridicullous or Expecto Patronum. You don't just shout Occlumens! I think that since Snape said it was similar to Imperio that the only way to learn to fight Legillimency is by practicing resistance.
I agree. I think that Snape is a precise thinker, and if there was a way to tell Harry precisely what to do, he would do it. Snape wouldn't want to waste time teaching Harry the "wrong way" to do Occlumency. The entire Order, plus Dumbledore, is depending on him to teach Harry the correct way to do it. So, we can assume that each person has to learn to block the Legillimens in a personalized way. Snape tells him it is like blocking the Imperious Curse. When Fake Moody is teaching Harry how to block that, he gives him no instruction at all except to put the curse on him.

Fake Moody also says about the Imperious Curses:

". . . the sooner you know what you're up against, the better. How are you supposed to defend yourself against something you've never seen? A wizard who's about to put an illegal curse on you isn't going to tell you what he's about to do. he's not going to do it nice and polite to your face. You need to be prepared. You need to be alert and watchful."

I think Snape is taking the same approach to Occlumency. Being "nice" and explaining everything wouldn't really help Harry to fight it off, because he wouldn't feel "attacked." It is like a self-defense class. If the teacher doesn't allow you to defend yourself, you can't learn how to do it.

Swords do generally have a negative connotation as I recall. I've always thought the worst card is the nine of swords - the "dark night of the soul" card. :scared:

http://images.facade.com/i/t/aquatic/l/r59.jpg

The eight of swords shows a woman surrounded by swords and blindfolded, and the ten of swords shows a man stabbed by ten swords. Ouch!


:tu: Good guesses!

Very interesting idea, Hwyla! I like that.

I agree. I think that Snape is a precise thinker, and if there was a way to tell Harry precisely what to do, he would do it. Snape wouldn't want to waste time teaching Harry the "wrong way" to do Occlumency. The entire Order, plus Dumbledore, is depending on him to teach Harry the correct way to do it. So, we can assume that each person has to learn to block the Legillimens in a personalized way. Snape tells him it is like blocking the Imperious Curse. When Fake Moody is teaching Harry how to block that, he gives him no instruction at all except to put the curse on him.

Fake Moody also says about the Imperious Curses:

". . . the sooner you know what you're up against, the better. How are you supposed to defend yourself against something you've never seen? A wizard who's about to put an illegal curse on you isn't going to tell you what he's about to do. he's not going to do it nice and polite to your face. You need to be prepared. You need to be alert and watchful."

I think Snape is taking the same approach to Occlumency. Being "nice" and explaining everything wouldn't really help Harry to fight it off, because he wouldn't feel "attacked." It is like a self-defense class. If the teacher doesn't allow you to defend yourself, you can't learn how to do it.
You're absolutely right. The nine of Swords IS the worst card in the deck. It's opposing card would be the 9 of Cups.

The other two memories in the pensieve- if they could be anything, I'd guess that one of them would be his enlistment as a DE and that the other is his turning to Dumbledore. It would be interesting, however, if it turned out that one of the memories was the night of the Potters' demise. We haven't a clue where he is during the fray, though people have hypothesized that he actually WAS at the Hollow.

I found my Tarot deck! It is a miracle worthy of recognition...somewhere.

The King of Swords: divinatory meanings: An active and determined person. Experienced. Authoritative. Controlled. Commanding. A professional man. Highly analytical person. Justness. Force. Superiority. A person having many ideas, thoughts, and designs. Reverse meanings (if the card is laid upside down) A person who may pursue a matter to ruin. Cruelty. Conflict. Selfishness. Sadism. One who causes unnecessary disturbance and sadness. Perversity.

The Hanged Man: Divinatory meanings: Life in suspension. Transition. Change. Reversal of the mind and in one's way of life. Apathy and dullness. Abandonment. Renunciation. The changing of life's forces. The period of respite between significant events. Sacrifice. Repentance. Readjustment. Regeneration. The approach of new lif forces. Reverse Meanings: Lack of sacrifice. Unwillingness to make the necessary effort. Failure to give of oneself. Preoccupation with the ego. False prophecy. Useless sacrifice. (Laura E. Clarson: Tarot of a Moon Garden. US Game Systems, Inc.)

You're absolutely right. The nine of Swords IS the worst card in the deck. It's opposing card would be the 9 of Cups.
Thank you! :tu:

In light of all the crying women in OotP, from Molly Weasley to Madame Trelawney to Winky, that card doesn't bode well, does it? :upset:

Thanks for those card meanings, clkginny! :)

I think you bring up a good point, here. Without knowing what the memories are, it is hard to judge the reasons that he might have put them in the pensieve; however, this seems a very logical reason to have put them inside it.

Precicely - we dont know yet exactly what he put in there, why & just how much of it Harry saw. Or even if the reason why he became so angry (when finding Harry peeking) was just over him seeing his worst memory, or the possibility that he saw another one before then (maybe less personally upsetting, but having more sensitive information).

When DD says 'his memory is as good as ever' after Snape's 'you haven't forgotten he tried to kill me' (both paraphrased). It;s as good as saying at that moment 'Yes, I remember what happened and I still prefer them, no matter how much you've done for me'. It's enough to break your heart.Yes.. :upset: I felt DD's remark was almost cruel in that moment, even the first time I read it.
Lupin, as a bystander, seems to disapprove of the Marauders actions. So any personal dislike that Snape feels towards Lupin is probably directed at the WW incident. I have wondered if Snape thought that Lupin was in on the "joke" and it took some explaining of the situation to Snape to clear that up.I hadn't thought of that. It might explain why the two of them seem to get along just fine, even if they don't like each other. It also explains why Snape couldn't pin-point Lupin's involvement with the Map the night he caught Harry: he had been wrong about Lupin before, he wasn't going to make the same mistake again without solid proof. (Not that he wasn't looking for proof!)

Sorry if that was from a while ago.. you guys move too fast!

Coming to the discussion at hand, I like the parallel with tarots. SIP, thank you for listing the people hanging upside-down (cats and creatures included), it makes for interesting parallels.
I also like the parallel between the giants and the Marauders, although it's a bit scary.

There's a main difference, though. Olympe succeded in freeing Hagrid, while Lily gave up (Snape's own fault, actually, still..). The results are also opposite:
Hagrid keeps on trying to win the giants over, changing tactics, and hopes to have some convinced anyway.
Snape stops trying to keep out of the way, changes tactics, and starts to get on the offending side.. (and eventually in the DE?)

A small difference in attitude in a similar situation brings a lot of difference in the repercussions. Once again, it's choice that makes a difference! Wonderful!

I, too, used to have a tarot deck, in another geologic age...This is, suddenly, Tarot Readers Anonymous (or, Mostly Anonymous).

Could the Hanged Man refer to Snape's possibly change in view of Harry in OotP? That plot point is literally left hanging (sorry--couldn't resist!) at the end of the book--but I just can't see Snape's not processing what he saw of Harry's past and realizing that Harry had a miserable childhood--not the pampered, princely existence Snape appears to have believed he had. Snape a bit brighter than that...and something's eventually got to give between the two of them.

hwyla--I really like that idea about why Snape put the memories in the Pensieve--it makes perfect sense that Snape doesn't want to relive these moments; it's not necessarily that Harry might break through his defenses and see his memories. We know that Snape doesn't mind that--he accepts Harry's viewing the scenes from his childhood. So there are at least three memories that he puts aside: why? I think you're dead on: in part to keep Harry out of them, but also so as not to have to replay them in his own mind.

As for Snape's not teaching Harry how to perform Occlumency. This comes up a lot, and the problem with the idea is that Snape does teach Harry. As clkginny said, Snape tells Harry that the skill is similar to the one used to throw off Imperius; he also tells Harry to use his mind to repel the Legilimency spell. It's far more how-to information than is usually given by a Hogwarts teacher.

I've pointed out before that JKR doesn't waste the readers' time with narrative descriptions of "how-to": we are first given the basic idea of magic in Flitwick's levitation class in PS/SS. The next time any real detail is given is the Patronus lesson in PoA. Then comes Occlumency in OotP. The first is simply to give the readers the concept of the magic; the other two are key defensive techniques that Harry must know and use, so JKR gives the reader enough description to have a sense of how each would work.

But Snape certainly is not withholding information from Harry about Legilimency/Occlumency--he's positively verbose in those pages. Harry is the one who gives us the idea that Snape isn't telling him how to do it; Harry is the one who's half, sort of listening to Snape's lecture....Look at how many times he interrupts Snape (to the point that Snape snaps at him to cut it out)...

Thanks for those card meanings, clkginny!
No problem! Just so everyone understands what we're talking about, here are the meanings for the nine of swords and the nine of cups.

Nine of Swords divinatory meanings: Concern. Miscarriage. Anxiety over a loved one. Despair. reverse meanings Suspicion. Slanderous gossip. Shame. Scruple. Timidity. Shady character. Reasonable fear.

Nine of Cups divinatory meaningsSuccess. Material attainment. Advantage. Well-being. Abundance. Good health. Difficulties surmounted. reverse meanings Mistakes. Material loss. Imperfections. Misplaced trust. False freedom. Opposition. Differences.(same deck as before)

I feel I should point out to anyone who doesn't know, most positive cards have a negative meaning when reversed, and most negative cards have positive connotations when reversed. The nine of swords, however, is negative no matter which way it is laid. That is why it is considered the worst card of the minor arcana. In the major arcana, death is considered a positive card, while the most negative cards are hanged man, fool, and the tower. (wheel of fortune is annoying in its vagueness, as My_Blood_is_Ink pointed out)

I, too, used to have a tarot deck, in another geologic age...This is, suddenly, Tarot Readers Anonymous (or, Mostly Anonymous).
We do seem to be attracted to similar ideas around here.

Okay--random switch of topic, but it's time to call on someone with really impressive video equipment....

I caught a few scenes of CoS on TV Sunday night, one of which was Ron and Harry's arrival at Hogwarts, and had a bit of a revelation. Check out the book that is on Snape's desk--right side, next to Rickman's right hand....tell me it doesn't look suspiciously like the cover of the UK adult HBP: Advanced Potion Making. It's old, it's battered, and it's got the maroon-purplish cover and tan-gray binding. And it couldn't be placed more blatantly on the desk.

Electronically gifted terriers are needed--somebody with a very sharp TV picture needs to take a good, hard look at this.

Unfortunately no such technology-endowment here ... though if Severus theoretically turns out to be the HBP (we'll be knowing in less than a month now...) it'll be raising some pretty interesting questions. & I also have a strange feeling about the Snily ship - it may not nescessarily turn out to be right, I'm not exactly a momma eagle regarding those things *g*, but I'm laying a few knuts on the possibility that it will turn out there will be something to it.

Another thing I thought about re Snape's character was that it reminded me very much of one from an earleir fandom of mine - who seemed to be going through some paralell issues (i.e. the question of what side he's actually on, whether he's acting in "good" or "bad" interests, is he being nescessarily or unnescessarily severe in the guidance of a child that - shades of Harry! - has to rise above his tragic early childhood losses and defeat a series of powerful enemies) - and who was put through a cabbalistic analysis on a couple of fansites. There was a *lot* in his personality that echoes the Snape character's 9in my view at least), including the same kind of severe attitude, emotional diatancing, tendency to close himself off, capacity to be ruthless to the point of brutality in some things - and who interestingly was assigned the sephiroth of Chesed (http://jeffieweiss.tripod.com/characters/gendo.htm). Note that in that system there is a direct link between love and pride - both things that comes up a lot openly with Harry, and certainly the pride part with Snape - maybe that pride points the way to something else that may be hidden? Anyway I'm blathering on & it's late ... I'll probably return to functioning in a less confusing mode tomorrow ;)

Okay--random switch of topic, but it's time to call on someone with really impressive video equipment....

I caught a few scenes of CoS on TV Sunday night, one of which was Ron and Harry's arrival at Hogwarts, and had a bit of a revelation. Check out the book that is on Snape's desk--right side, next to Rickman's right hand....tell me it doesn't look suspiciously like the cover of the UK adult HBP: Advanced Potion Making. It's old, it's battered, and it's got the maroon-purplish cover and tan-gray binding. And it couldn't be placed more blatantly on the desk.

Electronically gifted terriers are needed--somebody with a very sharp TV picture needs to take a good, hard look at this.

:tu: This is just the kind of thing I love, but I don't have the equipment. :sad: However, the website Veritaserum has over 1000 screenshots from the movie, and I'm searching through them. I assume this is in the scene with the boys after they crash the car into the tree?

EDIT ~ Back from searching with good news!:)

Poof! Drumroll please ~ Subtle is right! Here is the book! :clap:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/snapepotionsHBPcoverbook.jpg

Wow! You have a really good eye, my friend!

Before posting this, I sent the link to the picture, which I found at Veritaserum, HERE (http://www.veritaserum.com/galleries/displayimage.php?album=2&pos=178), your post number, and the story of the way you saw it Sunday night to Mugglenet News. I haven't seen this scoop anywhere, LOL. So maybe you should check Mugglenet later and see if they give you credit.

Either way, I'll give you credit here! Excellent! :tu:

silver ink pot--You are amazing!!!!!! I knew you would be the one to find the picture.

Man--if that is not the book...well, I can't imagine it's not, actually.

Sad but true category: when I watched the film on Family Channel on Sunday, as soon as I saw the book, I grabbed my remote to rewind...except...um...it wasn't my DVD or VHS that was playing. As Dan Quayle so aptly observed, "It's a terrible thing to lose one's mind."

And I'd never really paid attention to the book before--just that Snape had books piled on his desk; I haven't seen CoS for ages, certainly not since the covers were released, but it was instant recognition....

Thanks for sending the information in for me! That was so nice of you!!!!

Believe it Subtle! That's The Book on your avatar - incredible!

http://bestsmileys.com/magic/7.gif

You need to get a DVD of CoS right now!

:wow: :clap: :wow: Congratulations Subtle, you're amazing! If that isn't the book I'll eat my mug. :tu: (Thanks a bunch for posting the picture and forwarding the info to Mugglenet, SIP!)

I've just checked Mugglenet, they don't have it yet but I'm certain they soon will. :agree: If that's not darn well spotted I don't know what is!

I wonder how it will play out in HBP? No matter whether the HBP is Snape or whether Potions will "only" grow much more important than it already is (so still no DADA, eh?), it definitely bodes well for a prominent role for our fave character. :) (Hopefully not for the last time, what with all the redemption stuff around...)

Wow, Subtle and Silver, that's cool about the book, well spotted! :clap: :clap: I hope the publish it on Mugglenet news!

As has been described, the hanged man may be interpretted as a person gaining new wisdom from a different perspective. When this card (in it's upright position) is used to describe a person it means, interestingly enough, that the person has the clearest vision of truth, and yet is frequently looked upon by others with RIDICULE. Sounds familiar?
However, and I think this fits perfectly with Snape in the SWM incident, the hanged man may (in the upsidedown position) also represent a time of a choice between two extremes. It may indicate a time of transition, of choice, between two paths.

Hi, My Blood Is Ink! It's always so good to see you! You aren't on very often, but every time you log on, you come with awesome posts! :clap: I must confess I have never owned a Tarot deck, so I don't qualify for membership of Tarot Readers Anonymous :lol: but the things you said here, and what the others added, seem to fit really well! Especially that part about the Hanged Man. :clap:

We are My Blood Is Ink's fan club We love My Blood Is Ink Hurray! :clap:

^ Those guys are crazy

:p


Very interesting that it has a similar meaning to the idea of Odin gain wisdom on the tree.

The image of Odin hanging in a tree to gain wisdom, comes from this verse, from the Old Norse poem Havamal:

Veit ek at ek hekk
vindga meii á
nætr allar níu,
geiri undadr
ok gefinn Ódni,
sjalfr sjalfum mér.

It's a while since I did Old Norse, but I'll risk a translation:

I know that I hung
On the wind swept tree
Nine nights through
Wounded by spears
And given to Odin
Myself to myself

There is also a story about Odin that says he gave one of his eyes to be allowed to drink from the well of wisdom at the roots of the ash tree Yggdrasil, which carries the world.

*Luna has the Quibbler turned upside down to read the runes

As a curiousity: Runes could originally be written either way. There was no standard direction of writing. You could write left to right, right to left, back and forth, top to bottom, bottom to top, or in any other direction you found suitable. The runes could be mirror image or upside down, it didn't matter. In the later centuries of their use, though, a consensus (more or less) about direction and letter orientation seems to have been reached.

I think it is indicative of being at another person's mercy.
:agree:

I've come to think that he put those memories in there not only to keep them from Harry, but also the to avoid reliving them himself.

Very good point. :agree: Oh, how I wish he could store his worst memories in a pensieve and put them away on a shelf permanently! :lol: The way the memories are brought back during legilimency reminds me of the description of flachback that I read about in a book about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder which I read a couple of months ago. A person who was interviewed in the book described it as having a video player in your head, except you have no control of the play button. The same thing happens with legilimency: The victim can't choose not to relive the memory, it just plays. It brings Harry down on the floor, he doesn't know where he is, all he can see is the memory. This is exactly what the people who had been interviewed for the book said too. (I don't think it always has to be as vivid as this, this is flashbacks in its most extreme form, I think). The people in the book said it takes them a while to recover after such a flashback, sometimes a day. I would guess that reliving these memories would affect Snape quite badly too. (It affects Harry to see his, too).


EDIT: Chievrefueil, you owlery is full. I sent Freya with a letter for you, but she came back and said she didn't get landing permission, as your owlery was already crowded with other owls.

Good eyes, both Subtle and SIP!

Hopefully it will make the news, but if not, we appreciate your keen eyes!

Since I hadn't commented on it in my earlier post -- MBII (and all of you tarot readers), that was quite an informative bit about the Hanged Man, the Nine of Swords and the other cards you described. :tu: Your reading of Snape prior to OotP gave me quite the goosebumps. :scared: Since the first two cards seem to fit him so uncannily well, let's hope the third for his future will be equally fitting! I'd hate to see him die just so Harry gets it at last that he's always been on his side, but the redemption pattern to him is way compelling... :scared:

I'm not a tarot reader myself *looks wistful among all you knowledgeable folks...*, but I do remember your tarot thread, MBII. I've searched and digged it out, here it is (loads of intriguing info here, but it's been dormant for months):
Symbols in the Tarot and Harry Potter (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=27673&highlight=tarot)

Wow, Norbertha! You're so kind. I now feel so very loved here. Thank you very much!

This is slightly off topic, but not completely. I saw a movie last night that was very interesting and well-made. It's called "The Final Cut" starring Robin Williams.

Now, the reason why I bring this up is because the movie has an element in the plot which reminds me of how a pensieve works. I don't want to go into details as some of you may want to see it, but the point is the movie has a device in it which allows people to view memories from the moment of birth to the moment of death. What makes it different from the pensieve is that the device records the memories from the perspective of the person living the memories. I just thought I'd like to share this.

Back on topic, and I know this is coming close to fanfiction, the last card I drew (the six of wands) has been nagging at me. Do you think there's a possibilty that Snape might assume the role of headmaster (if he survives) after the war? Because in all honesty, I don't think McGonnagal feels appropriate for fulfilling that role. And if the epic hero framework in the HP stories is any indication, it would serve the books well to have an adult in his prime take on the new generation (and symbolically, the future).

P.S.S. Serpentine, it's a pleasure to see you again. I hope the last card proves true as well. Perhaps I should do another reading. I haven't done one for Snape in almost a year.

Subtle posted her book news over in Divination Studies on the "Unfogging the HBP book covers" thread, and of course, someone is already taking pot shots at the very notion that a book on Snape's desk could possibly be "Advanced Potions." :rolleyes: Well, it may not be the exact same book, but it is similar enough to be important:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/SnapePotionsBooks.jpg

I think she must have said to Chris Columbus that Snape should have a book on his desk that looks a certain way. It looks "lit up" in the scene on purpose.

JKR has said that they had "trouble getting everything in" to the CoS movie, because every detail is important. I admit that I have scanned that scene before with a zoom on my DVD, and I thought, Oh, OK, a book, so what, LOL. But back when I did it, we didn't have the Adult British Book Cover yet, so a book didn't seem like anything. Now it does.

No one has to get "excited" over this, but nay-saying everything gets old after a while. :sad:

Back on topic, and I know this is coming close to fanfiction, the last card I drew (the six of wands) has been nagging at me. Do you think there's a possibilty that Snape might assume the role of headmaster (if he survives) after the war? Because in all honesty, I don't think McGonnagal feels appropriate for fulfilling that role. And if the epic hero framework in the HP stories is any indication, it would serve the books well to have an adult in his prime take on the new generation (and symbolically, the future).
McGonagall was badly hurt in OotP, so if anything happens to Dumbledore, she would be a target again, and perhaps might not be up to the task of Headmistress. With Snape as Dumbledore's right hand man at the school, it does seem possible, and it would certainly show that all four houses belong there, not just Gryffindor.

The book is also placed very deliberately in the film: it forms the point of a triangle, which is made up of the boys, Snape, and it--a classic arrangement to draw a viewer's eye. And--made all the more striking by the lighting, as silver ink pot already pointed out (note that the pile to the furthest right is shadowed; the book is the only object spotlighted--not even the actors have direct lighting on them. If this is a coincidence, it's one of the best I've ever seen--talk about a happy chance! But I really have my doubts that it's chance...I'm not seeing too many differences between the film book and the cover book.....

Headmaster...Someone does have to replace Dumbledore...The feminist in me would love to see McGonagall get it, but I do think that her injury in OotP was a bit ominous. I can't quite decide whether she really is supposed to be hale and hearty at the end of OotP, or if she's really weakened by her ordeal. I did, a long time ago, joke with a friend that one of the funniest endings would entail Snape's becoming the Headmaster...

Norbertha--That's really interesting about the runes. Did the meaning change at all, if the directions were altered? Or was the message the same no matter what?

And I echo everybody else: I'm always glad to have the the regulars on hand, but I'm very, very happy to see My Blood Is Ink and Serpentine on board again...you are staying, aren't you (looking severely at both)?

The six of wands: I think it might indicate that he will start teaching DADA. However, it could be as simple as Voldemort being defeated. (Conquest, triumph, good news, advancement, expectation, desires realized as a result of efforts)

The book covers: well, I think it looks promising. Perhaps we're hoping too much, but where is the harm in that?

Looking at the books (and comparing their state of wear, hehe) I'd say that since CoS, Snape's been banging that book against the backs of his students' heads. The book we see now on the cover of HBP is in such disrepair, I can't think of any other reason!

Or maybe Neville's potion was at the wrong place at the wrong time...

...The poor book!

And Subtle, I frequent the forums a lot, mostly to enjoy reading your posts. You have such great insight that I feel at loss as to what to add! I'm sorry, however, that there was quarrel in the Lupin and the Shrieking Shack thread. I think I'll say point blank that although Lupin was indirectly responsible for the prank and was hardly at fault for it, he was most certainly at fault for not approaching Snape and apologizing personally. Alas.

If the book was hinted at since CoS, and CoS is integral to the plot of HBP (as JKR states herself), what do you think this could mean? Yes, I think we can read it as read that Harry got into potions, but I can't help but wonder if the book has a much stronger significance. It seems that we can't make any educated guesses until the sixth book is out (as usual).

One more thing, and I almost forgot. JKR has a taste for irony. I have no doubt in my mind that Neville may very well become a Herbology professor post-war. I mention this in passing because she hinted in an interview that one of the Hogwarts students would become a professor. Hermione is too obvious to bet on, so I picked a student who showed signs of interests and strength toward a very specific subject.

Oh, dear. Poor Snape. Is THIS the person he has to go to if he wants to make a potion? That's DEFINITELY JKR's sense of humor. The bets are on!

Wow! I've always noticed that book in COS! Why have I never made this connection before???

Everyone on the thread is amazing!

But, I wonder, would Jo have known what would be depicted on the cover of HBP back when COS the movie was being made? Or was the book the key to the HBP plotline left out of COS the book?

Does anybody remember that in the book COS Harry and Ron eat sandwiches off a plate resting on Snape's desk. NOW I know the movies are NOT canon, but IF there is a connection here - were they suppose to see this book in the original COS (before the HBP plotline was deleted)???

The book is also placed very deliberately in the film: it forms the point of a triangle, which is made up of the boys, Snape, and it--a classic arrangement to draw a viewer's eye. And--made all the more striking by the lighting, as silver ink pot already pointed out (note that the pile to the furthest right is shadowed; the book is the only object spotlighted--not even the actors have direct lighting on them. If this is a coincidence, it's one of the best I've ever seen--talk about a happy chance! But I really have my doubts that it's chance...I'm not seeing too many differences between the film book and the cover book.....
Even in the thumbnail picture on Veritaserum, you can see the book better than you can see the actors. It just jumps out of the picture. The book is what is clearly lit up!:)
http://www.veritaserum.com/galleries/thumbnails.php?album=2&page=8

And I echo everybody else: I'm always glad to have the the regulars on hand, but I'm very, very happy to see My Blood Is Ink and Serpentine on board again...you are staying, aren't you (looking severely at both)?
Yes, they must stay, and stay, and stay! We need all the great thinkers here when Book 6 comes out. Or will there be a new thread? Development of Snape's Character Through HBP . . .
Looking at the books (and comparing their state of wear, hehe) I'd say that since CoS, Snape's been banging that book against the backs of his students' heads. The book we see now on the cover of HBP is in such disrepair, I can't think of any other reason!

Or maybe Neville's potion was at the wrong place at the wrong time...

...The poor book!
Bubotuber pus always does that to my antique books, too, lol.:lol:
If the book was hinted at since CoS, and CoS is integral to the plot of HBP (as JKR states herself), what do you think this could mean? Yes, I think we can read it as read that Harry got into potions, but I can't help but wonder if the book has a much stronger significance. It seems that we can't make any educated guesses until the sixth book is out (as usual).
I even wondered if it could be a Port Key? Wouldn't you love to read those papers that are underneath it in the movie? I know I would, LOL.
Wow! I've always noticed that book in COS! Why have I never made this connection before???
I know I've looked at that scene closely, too, but it was just a book, ho hum. I'm going to look through some other pictures and see if I can find another shot of it.
Or was the book the key to the HBP plotline left out of COS the book?
I wonder that, too.
Does anybody remember that in the book COS Harry and Ron eat sandwiches off a plate resting on Snape's desk. NOW I know the movies are NOT canon, but IF there is a connection here - were they suppose to see this book in the original COS (before the HBP plotline was deleted)???
Bahahahahahaha! Isn't there something over on "Snape's Point of View" in the Common Room about Snape looking at his desk and seeing the sandwich crumbs all over the place? :rofl:
Does anybody remember that in the book COS Harry and Ron eat sandwiches off a plate resting on Snape's desk. NOW I know the movies are NOT canon, but IF there is a connection here - were they suppose to see this book in the original COS (before the HBP plotline was deleted)???
Very possible!

My Blood Is Ink-- Well, first: *blush* But please always toss in a couple of cents. It was said on another thread that 'everything' had already been discussed about the five books...I disagreed heartily then, and I still do. Subtle insights are yet to be made--as you yourself proved with the tarot references and Serpentine with the analysis os the kitchen scene. We may have had a recent bump in the road here, but it doesn't happen much, thank heaven, and we've gotten back on track rapidly. It amazes me how much knowledge people can bring to bear on this thread.

Round of applause!!

The book..I have no idea how significant it is, but I do emphatically believe it's the HBP Potions book. If it were sitting on, say, McGonagall's desk, I'd say--coincidence, look alikes but not the same. However, when a dead ringer shows up on the Potions Master's desk...that seems likely. JKR didn't start planning the books with the publication of PS/SS: she had already planne dout the entire story. While she had not written out each book, every bit of them had been laid out in detail. So--it would not shock me that the Book 6 cover is referenced in film #2.

If you really want to drive yourself insane: Try to figure out what the words are over the arch in the same scene.

That's like putting a rawhide chewie right out of the reach of the terriers....

If you really want to drive yourself insane: Try to figure out what the words are over the arch in the same scene.

You do realize that after typing this, you have just released a handful of terriers hunting down for a screenshot of that image? You're such a Slytherin, getting other obsessees such as myself to do the hunting while you get to do the fun analysis work the moment we bring back our findings.

You would have done Snape proud.

Subtle! I found another screenshot!

This is from a website called TheMinistryofMagic.org:

http://www.theministryofmagic.org.uk/gallerys/one/images/SnapeOffice2.jpg

It shows a discoloration like the one on the Book Cover! Here are the other two to compare:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/SnapePotionsBooks.jpg

silver ink pot--You are, without a doubt and with no room for equivocation, the Queen of Terriers. The Empress. (Eek--that recalls the tarot discussion, and it's been too long for me to remember what the Empress card means...uh, My Blood Is Ink...?)

And that parenthetical remark...Ah--you don't think for a moment that I don't know exactly what I'm doing? Silver ink pot even commented once that I should just ask. But...no. Either it's habit ingrained by 21 years of teaching ("That's a very interesting question; what do you think?" "Why don't you look that up and let us know?") or it's why the students call me Snape.

There are lots of photos from CoS that are not shots used in the film. I happen to know this because another faculty member printed one out and gave it to me...because the shot of Snape looked way too much like me at my desk...and I looked at the site whence she got the picture and realized many, like the one I have, did not make it past the editing room. No, I have no idea what the site was...But the photo she gave me showed the words...however dimly. You can see them quickly in the film as Snape gets up from behind the desk...

Have fun hunting..... *grins evilly*

Subtle Science, it's very fortunate for you that I consider myself a good student.

I found (and very quickly, much to my delight) these images of the office on yahoo images.

http://whyseverus.tripod.com/images/hp2/snapeoffice/snapeoffice02b.jpg

EDIT: I tried this link through this post, and for some reason, it doesn't work. You can access the image through the second link I've provided below.

EDIT II: Is this one it?
http://i.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/020530/121317__potter7_l.jpg

I also found this site detailing each section of Snape's classroom:
http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/whysnape/images/hp2/bonusclassroom.htm

And another link connected to the same site detailing Snape's office:
http://whyseverus.tripod.com/images/hp2/officetour.htm

Unfortunately, either I'm looking at the wrong arch or the resolution my computer leaves something to be desired. It's the arch directly behind his desk, correct? If so, I couldn't make out what's on it without a photo shop program (which, I do not have on this computer). Chances are, and I'm just guessing, it's the school's motto in Latin: "Never Tickle (or wake?) a Sleeping Dragon."

EDIT III:
The image I just posted under EDIT II is definitely much clearer.

1.) It looks like three words, with the second word looking similar to the word "of."

2.) The second to the last letter of the third word looks like an 'R.'

3.) The first word looks like it begins with either a 'W' or a 'CU' or a 'CIL' or a 'CIT' without the second stroke to cross the 'T.'

4.) The last letter on the first word looks like a lower case 'Y' or a 'V'.

5.) The first letter of the third word can be a: 'D', 'P,' or a really messed up upper case 'B' or 'R.'

6.) The rest is, pardon my language, bollocks.

If someone could get one with a better resolution, that would be charming.

And no Subtle, I had no doubt in my mind that you knew exactly what you were doing. As to Silver Ink Pot's comment that you should just ask, my only reply is: "Where's the fun in that?"

The Empress. (Eek--that recalls the tarot discussion, and it's been too long for me to remember what the Empress card means...uh, My Blood Is Ink...?)
Wrong poster, but I'm not good at finding all those things around the net, so I thought I'd deal with this.

The Empress divinatory meanings: Feminine progress, fruitfulness, accomplishment, mother, sister, wife, marriage, children, feminine influence, ability to motivate others, practicality, intuition. Reverse meanings: vacillation, inaction, lack of interest, lack of concentration, indecision, delay, anxiety, infertility, infidelity.

I know you probably weren't serious about it, but it seems the only constructive contribution I can make right now. :-)