Development of Snape's character through OotP, v.3

It's interesting that Pettigrew doesn't even seem to be on Snape's radar screen at all...if JKR really wanted to go for symmetry, perhaps it will be Pettigrew that outs Snape to Voldemort....someone he hadn't ever suspected or paid attention to?And, Snape would make the same mistake as James? How ironic. . . :evil:

I really can't think of much that Hagrid says to Harry about the Marauders--or even his parents, for that matter.

He is very familiar with their behavior: "I dunno," chuckled Hagrid,''Fred and George Weasley could give'em a run fer their money" (p. 204, PoA, US paper). That he laughs makes me wonder if Hagrid knew about SWM. I could see his knowing of the conflicts between Snape and the Marauders...but, in looking at this line, I have to wonder if he would find it so amusing if he knew of SWM. I don't think that's Hagrid's style, forgiving as he is.

While wandering around that section of PoA, I also found a couple of other interesting bits from Hagrid. One is how upset he is by the idea of Sirius' betraying his friends, to the point that he threatens violence: "I tell yeh, if I'd got ter Black before little Pettigrew did, I wouldn't've messed around with wands--I'd've ripped him limb--from---limb," Hagrid growled (p. 208). The only things I can think of comparable to this are when he pins Karkaroff to the tree in GoF, after Karkaroff insults Dumbledore, and when he threatens Vernon, when Vernon insults Dumbledore in PS/SS.

The other gives another bit of support to the idea that Snape cannot be on Voldemort's side anymore--or, at least, that Hagrid doesn't think so. Hagrid's reasoning for why Sirius could betray the Potters was that he was a DE: "But when a wizard goes over ter the Dark Side, there's nothin' and no one that matters to 'em anymore...." (p. 207).

Ah! Now, I get it! (I'm a bit dim today.) Congratulations, Norbertha--a whole year!
Well, you're quicker on the uptake than me. If you hadn't posted that, I'd still be in the dark. So much for my observational skills. Congratulations, Norbertha.

I've always wondered that, too. Hagrid seems to know all about the grounds and the forest, so he certainly would have noticed a werewolf and a couple of other strange creatures running around at night ~ but if he knows anything about the Marauders, he never lets on to Harry.
I don't think Hagrid made any connection, prior to the end of PoA, that the Marauders might have something to do with their animagi. I just can't see Hagrid, who has a tendency towards slipping out secrets, keeping something like that from Dumbledore. It doesn't fit his character.

Congratulations Norbertha! One year old and cute as a button! :)

Hagrid and Snape: They would have a history together, but I agree with clkginny; if Hagrid had witnessed SWM, I don't think he could keep it quiet, plus, I think he would have intervened before Lily got there. He doesn't seem like the kind of person to just let it happen. He would have been all over James and Sirius, dragging them up to DDs office.
I think the idea of Karkaroff being head of Slytherin has some merit. It would explain the familiarity between him and Snape, along with being former DEs.
As for the inconsistencies: I don't think JKR sees them because she has the entire series mapped out. She knows there will be answers to all the "important" questions when all is said and written. And I cling to the statement that "the time for questions is done, it's time for answers", or something to that effect. And we only have 2 books left, so there are a lot of answers for her to give! Yeah for answers!

Ah! Now, I get it! (I'm a bit dim today.) Congratulations, Norbertha--a whole year!
Well, you're quicker on the uptake than me. If you hadn't posted that, I'd still be in the dark. So much for my observational skills. Congratulations, Norbertha.
Congratulations Norbertha! One year old and cute as a button!
Well, I was really dim! I thought Norbertha was talking about being "Sherriff" because of some argument I had missed, LOL. :rotfl:

Congratulations, Norbertha! It seems like I've known you alot longer than one year.:)

Our little Norbertha is growing up! :upset:

The other gives another bit of support to the idea that Snape cannot be on Voldemort's side anymore--or, at least, that Hagrid doesn't think so. Hagrid's reasoning for why Sirius could betray the Potters was that he was a DE: "But when a wizard goes over ter the Dark Side, there's nothin' and no one that matters to 'em anymore...." (p. 207).
That's a "Hagridism" that is reminiscent of a "Sirius Sweeping Generality." :evil:

For instance, do DEs really care about "nothing"? Even Malfoy and Narcissa have a son, and there's every indication that they do care about him. They're failing as parents, but they seem to care about him. Hagrid's statement just seems too cut and dried for me. If Snape and Regulus wanted to leave Voldemort, they must have still cared about something, if only their own freedom.

The problem is that Hagrid's statement might be true for someone like Bella Lestrange or Barty Jr., who are probably clinically insane. But there are shades of gray.

For instance, do DEs really care about "nothing"? Even Malfoy and Narcissa have a son, and there's every indication that they do care about him. They're failing as parents, but they seem to care about him.
The Malfoy's have always struck me as rather victorian, as if they see more value in having someone to carry on the "noble" Malfoy name and heritage, rather than care about Draco as a person. There is the fact that Narcissa sends Draco goodies, but I've always chalked that up to the "prestige" factor as opposed to any actual attempt to bond with her son. Lucius's actions seem even more along the lines of "you must appear to be a Malfoy" than any parental concern.

It does seem unrealistic that JK wouldn't have the DE be more gray, but given the agenda that she has them espouse, it does make a certain amount of sense.

Originally posted by SIP: The problem is that Hagrid's statement might be true for someone like Bella Lestrange or Barty Jr., who are probably clinically insane. But there are shades of gray.
Clinically insane? Yep, I'd buy that one with my own dollar!

clkginny, I like your point about the Malfoys being "victorian" and being important because Draco will carry on the family name. We've seen nothing of Narcissa and Dracos interaction with his dad leave much to be desired.
As for shades of grey, we haven't really seen these people outside of the DE circle, with the exception of the Malfoys. (or am I forgetting something?) Each time we've seen one of the DEs, he or she has been responding to LV. Showing up at the graveyard, doing his bidding a la Quirrel, chopping off a hand via peter. We really haven't seen them outside of LV. So we don't know what their motivations are. I think the Malfoys (Lucius especially) is sticking with LV for his own personal reasons. He believes in the who PB thing, but I think he's after personal power and thinks the way to get more is through LV.
That being said, I think there are people who are mostly black or white. I think of the white supremacists here in the states; these people believe so strongly in their goal that there is no gray with them. So maybe a lot of the DEs are like that; just so believe in your "whacked" agenda that you'd do anything to get it.

That being said, I think there are people who are mostly black or white. I think of the white supremacists here in the states; these people believe so strongly in their goal that there is no gray with them. So maybe a lot of the DEs are like that; just so believe in your "whacked" agenda that you'd do anything to get it.
Yes, that was the mentality I had in mind when I made that comment. Not to sound Star Wars-ish, but it reminds me of that whole Yoda spiel: fear leads to hate, hate leads to anger, anger leads to suffering...

Ummm...Topic? Oh, yes, there often seems to be a two-dimensional aspect to those stereotypes, doesn't there? They become their agenda and it leaves little actual personality to judge.

clkginny: I see what you mean about Malfoy, both as a Victorian who wants a "pureblood" heir, and also as someone who has turned his personality over to Voldemort out of fear. :tu:

I always have trouble squaring the idea of family life with the DEs, so I guess I give the Malfoys and others too much credit for being human. I was reading CoS again, and noticed the scene in Nocturne Alley in which Malfoy and Draco talk about school, grades, presents, etc. It all sounds so "normal" in a way, even when Malfoy Sr. says he hopes his son doesn't grow up to be a thief. That is the ultimate irony.

One other thing about the scene in CoS. When Malfoy chides Draco for not having higher grades, he says that all the teachers play favorites, and then mentions Hermione. I was surprised that he said it that way - playing favorites. That must mean that Draco doesn't believe he is Snape's favorite, right? :evil: So if Draco doesn't feel like the "favorite," then who is? Hermione is certainly not Snape's favorite, although that doesn't mean that she makes bad grades in his class. I just like the idea of Snape acting one way in class, and then the grades reflecting the truth.

To change the subject just a little:

Norbertha posted this on the "James and Sirius School Bullies" thread. I hope she doesn't mind if I post it over here. It is so startling when you think about Snape.:

. . . from a school newspaper, which I found on the internet: http://www.thinkingpublications.com...%20Idea2005.pdf

The introduction to this article reads:

Originally Posted by thinkingpublications.com, by Brennan C.

Hey, you know me. I'm the one who looks at the floor while walking down the hall, with my hair in front of my face. You know me, I'm the one who dresses different from all of you. I'm the one who wears almost all black, with long, black hair. (...) Hey, you know me, I'm the one that everyone calls a freak. I'm the one that everyone messes with until I can't take it anymore. I'm everyone's target for ridicules; I'm the one that will change the school, if given the chance.

This is Young Snape, as I see him. He's the loner, who sits by himself, by the bushes. He is the one who has long, black hair, that JKR describes as a curtain. He is the one who dresses all in black. He is the one who is always ridiculed: called "Snivellus" and taunted about his greasy hair and his big nose and for being odd. He is the one who was picked on until it hurt so much that he still can't talk about it, nor let anyone find out about it, twenty years later.

Incredible! :tu:

Hagrid probably knows why Snape acted the way he did when he was a prefect following the Maurders around. Was Snape a prefect? (Or did I misunderstand your sentence?)No I don't think it ever did say that Snape was a prefect but when you put together what Sirius Stated about Snape following them around the school, then you take what Snape keeps on saying about Harry being like his father, it does make you wonder. I mean Harry does a lot of midnight walking suggesting that James and the Maurders did, if we assume father like son. So either Snape would figure out that they where going to leave the Gryffindor common room at night when they should have been in there dormitories and broke the rules himself, or he was a prefect, allowed to roam the school at night (this could also work the other way around though; as James was a prefect, who may have constantly caught Snape roaming around the school at night when he should have been in the Slytherin Common room). If the later is true and Snape was not a prefect roaming around the school being constantly caught off guard by prefect James then Snape would have been a lot like Harry. This would make sense:

James making fun of Snape in front of the Gryffindors, Snape making fun of Harry in front of Slytherins,
James being nasty to Snape because the trouser seen was cruel, Snape being cruel to Harry by accidently dropping his potion on the floor.

Edit: You have young Snape running off to find out where Lupin went after being tricked by Sirius. Then you have young Harry running off after Sirius Black after being tricked by Voldemort. Both Snape and Harry are similar, both young and both reckless.

James runs to the rescue of Snape after being tricked by Sirius.
Snape got help to rescue Harry after being tricked about Sirius by Voldemort. How similar was Snape and James in these two cases and how mature was James for his age at this point in time.


Young Snape is a lot like Harry and Old Snape in OotP is now like James.

I think Hagrid's comment is both too general and accurate. The DEs, like any extreme fringe group, adheres absolutely to its ideology. In real life, it's all too commonly seen: Neo-Nazis, for instance, who spew their hatred and biases without second thought. To an outsider, the ideas are ludicrous--and obviously so; yet a conversation with such people is fruitless--there is no gray. Nothing really does matter but the ideology: not actual facts (heaven forbid) or, certainly, people. The only people who exist to them are the ones who share the same ideas; those who have any opposing ideas cease to exist as humans. The "cause" is everything.

Yet--despite their ideologies, they're still people. JKR includes it in the books: the DEs have families; they get married and have children and lead "normal" lives...it's just that part of their normality is virulant racism...

I saw a documentary a few years back on TV that contained an absolutely chilling scene. The footage showed two little sisters, looking about 8 and 10 years old, singing and dancing at some sort of kiddie recital event. They were utterly perfect looking little white girls--blonde and blue-eyed, wearing fancy dresses that matched their eyes; they even had fancy little lace-edged anklet socks on! And when they were done performing, the audience of friends and family cheered and clapped; the little girls were kissed and fussed over. The catch? The song they were singing extolled racism and the value of white supremacy, and the grand finale to their performance was the Hitler salute. And their parents were so proud of them.

To me, that's what JKR is implying with the DEs--she's not trying to 'soften' them, but to show that they don't see a problem with their ideology and, in fact, that ordinary people can hold some very scary ideas......

Norbertha--Thanks for sending along that link, and thanks to silver ink pot for posting it here. That paragraph really does scream Snape, doesn't it?

When Malfoy chides Draco for not having higher grades, he says that all the teachers play favorites, and then mentions Hermione. I was surprised that he said it that way - playing favorites. That must mean that Draco doesn't believe he is Snape's favorite, right? :evil: So if Draco doesn't feel like the "favorite," then who is? Hermione is certainly not Snape's favorite, although that doesn't mean that she makes bad grades in his class. I just like the idea of Snape acting one way in class, and then the grades reflecting the truth.Nice idea. :) What I got from this one, though, was more of a comment on Draco. He thinks that he doesn't do as well in school because Hermione is a favorite? :huh: She so obviously works really hard and is very smart. To blame it on 'favorites' rather than his own inferiority . . . that just shows what kind of person Draco is. He'd rather think Hermione was a favorite, than think she was actually better than him - as she's a 'mudblood' and should be inferior. This, to me, ties in with the whole 'purist' ideology that his father and Draco both adher to.

I saw a documentary a few years back on TV that contained an absolutely chilling scene. The footage showed two little sisters, looking about 8 and 10 years old, singing and dancing at some sort of kiddie recital event. They were utterly perfect looking little white girls--blonde and blue-eyed, wearing fancy dresses that matched their eyes; they even had fancy little lace-edged anklet socks on! And when they were done performing, the audience of friends and family cheered and clapped; the little girls were kissed and fussed over. The catch? The song they were singing extolled racism and the value of white supremacy, and the grand finale to their performance was the Hitler salute. And their parents were so proud of them.
I remember seeing that, too, on a show about racist militia groups, or something like that. Awful and horrible to see the indoctrination. But we do see that in kids like Draco and Pansy Parkinson, who are always watching Hermione for some flaw.
To me, that's what JKR is implying with the DEs--she's not trying to 'soften' them, but to show that they don't see a problem with their ideology and, in fact, that ordinary people can hold some very scary ideas......
Well, you're absolutely right. CLKGinny and Vickilind convinced me, and I've backtracked on my ideas about Malfoy since last night. I just find it really chilling that people with children can torture other people's children for the "cause." My thought about CoS was why does Malfoy care what Draco's grades are and what he will "amount" to in life if he doesn't care about him. But I concede to the point that Malfoy may just see Draco as a means to an end ~ the continuation of the House of Malfoy.
Nice idea. What I got from this one, though, was more of a comment on Draco. He thinks that he doesn't do as well in school because Hermione is a favorite? She so obviously works really hard and is very smart. To blame it on 'favorites' rather than his own inferiority . . . that just shows what kind of person Draco is. He'd rather think Hermione was a favorite, than think she was actually better than him - as she's a 'mudblood' and should be inferior. This, to me, ties in with the whole 'purist' ideology that his father and Draco both adher to.
Yes, Draco whines all through that scene, LOL. He's a complainer and puts the blame on everyone but himself - the teachers and Hermione.

I saw a documentary a few years back on TV that contained an absolutely chilling scene. The footage showed two little sisters, looking about 8 and 10 years old, singing and dancing at some sort of kiddie recital event.

O.T - was that a duo by the name of Prussian blue? I saw an entry about them in someone's blog - sound very similar /O.T

It's funny, though, that I can't picture young Lucius as similar to Draco. Lucius seems, to me, to be the smartest of the DE, and most likely to be as dangerous as Bellatrix and Voldemort himself. Draco doesn't seem to have the intelligence or flair that his father does.

As far as Snape in relation to Draco, aside from the first book, we see no indication that Snape truly is impressed with him. Which makes the comment in CoS all the more confusing, because during PS/SS there is canon that Snape favored him, thus negating the idea that Hermione's grades at the end had anything to do with being favored herself. Draco seems the type to tell his dad anything that might be an advantage, which seems to have served to keep Lucius and Snape somewhat close. (Perhaps it's dad's frustration at not being able to purchase better grades for his son)

The whole Malfoy/Snape relationship frustrates me, because there are two many things we don't see, and it is hard to figure out exactly how it stands, and why.

SilverInkPot, thanks for posting Norberthas post over here, it was great.
I remember reading, here in the local papers, an article similar to the one quoted (I couldn't get the link to open for me) It reminds me of Columbine (for those outside of the States, in April of 1999, two boys set off some small bombs in there school and then went on a shooting spree, killing 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves; worst school shooting in history). Those boys changed not only their school, but many others, forever. Many schools now have zero tolerance rules regarding bullying, but it still happens. My daughter is one of those "freaks" and has enough support in friends and at home that she can withstand it. Snape did not. And we know that he became a DE. When you think about how bullying affects kids, sometimes for the rest of their lives, it makes you think; what can we really do about it?
And SIP, you're right, Draco does whine in that scene, doesn't he? Yet, we always here from the Harry filter that Draco is Snape favorite? Supports the idea that Snape must maintain the identity of DE for his house, because obviously when it comes down to the grades, he is fair.

Subtle posted this over on the bullying thread, and I couldn't resist bringing it over here (hopefully she won't mind).

But the bootom line is--no matter what Snape may or may not have done...What James and Sirius do is wrong. Period. It's not up to them to administer what they perceive as proper punishment of justice--whether it's because Snape had attacked them previously or because he merely "exists." Neither is an excuse or validation. Just as FakeMoody is not justified in what he does to Draco just because we know Draco is a mean little git who intended Harry harm--it's wrong. Saying that doesn't justify Draco: it's simply a matter of looking at the situation without bias and recognizing the cliche that 'two wrongs don't make a right." Ron can't see that, in his childish viewpoint; however, McGonagall most certainly can.

The idea that Snape "chooses" to suffer the aftermath is a bit disturbing. Yes, to a degree, there is (or can be) a conscious choice to overcome one's past. However, just because some people can does not mean all can. The example of Luna is cited: Luna, however, is a very, very different character from that of Snape. What JKR shows us is the variety of responses based upon the variety of personalities. There is a complexity to human responses that is being illustrated. Bullying has a profound effect on the victims. JKR shows us the possibilities. Luna is serene: she lives in her own little world, which just happens to be reinforced by her father; although she's lost her mother, she apparently has a close relationship with her father--it's not difficult to see where some of her strength is coming from. Snape is bitter: there has been nothing to give him strength; his view of the world and how it treats people is quite different. To expect him to decide, suddenly--to "choose"--to be happy and forgive and forget is an unrealistic view of human psychology. For him to be able to do that would first require him to even be able to speak about what happened to him--and we don't even see him able to do that. There is the indication of the profound effect bullying had on him: the portrait of the victim who is unable to verbalize what happened. However, it will out: JKR's got this down perfectly. Snape won't talk about it (note that, in contrast, Luna is completely frank and open about what others do to her), but such things can't be totally repressed, and his anger certainly comes out loudly and clearly to the reader. But we see it so clearly because we are outsiders. Yet another touch of realism by JKR: it's always far, far easier to see others' faults and how they should fix them than to perceive our own failings and the 'obvious' solutions to them.

Very astute observations.

It does seem unrealistic that JK wouldn't have the DE be more gray, but given the agenda that she has them espouse, it does make a certain amount of sense. We also have to take into account just what opportunity have we've had to witness them outside of DE 'events' where Harry is hardly likely to be shown their 'nice' sides. The only ones we've seen in 'ordinary' circumstances are 1) MacNair when he comes to kill Buckbeak, where he doesn't talk (hard to get another view of him there) 2) Karkaroff in bk4 who doesn't want to return to VM (shown to be from fear, but doesn't indicate a fervent hate of any muggle-borns or half-bloods thru' the year. And 3) Malfoy who when unaware of Harry's presence sounds abit like you'd expect a dad to do. I agree she's not softening them, but she is showing them as 'real' people when Harry has a look at them away from VM.

This is Young Snape, as I see him. He's the loner, who sits by himself, by the bushes. He is the one who has long, black hair, that JKR describes as a curtain. He is the one who dresses all in black. He is the one who is always ridiculed: called "Snivellus" and taunted about his greasy hair and his big nose and for being odd. He is the one who was picked on until it hurt so much that he still can't talk about it, nor let anyone find out about it, twenty years later. In TRUE friendship it seems you're right, but we do need to remember that it's possible that some of his 'associates' may have graduated. Malfoy has. And Bella has. We don't know about the ages of rest of 'that gang of slytherins', but it's a possibility. Or maybe Snape's just the only 5th yr of the group. This is a break from OWLs not an all school break. Even so, that means no friends in your classes and none in your dorm room. , if you only hang with the older kids. However, Snape's adult bitter, anti-social self does scream of 'protective walls', that I'll never let them hurt me again.

....a comment on Draco. He thinks that he doesn't do as well in school because Hermione is a favorite? She so obviously works really hard and is very smart. To blame it on 'favorites' rather than his own inferiority . . . that just shows what kind of person Draco is. He'd rather think Hermione was a favorite, than think she was actually better than him - as she's a 'mudblood' and should be inferior. This, to me, ties in with the whole 'purist' ideology that his father and Draco both adher to.This does show that Draco can't conceive the idea that she might actually BE smarter than him. Everything he's been raised upon says she can't be and that there must be another explanation. It also suggests that the Slytherins might actually think the teachers other than Snape play favorites, just as Harry thinks Snape does. This doesn't means they do, just that the slytherins might see it that way.
-----------
eta - We also see Peter and Snape outside DE events but Harry is too involved there to see them realistically. Can't blame him, but that's given us plenty to talk about.

Thanks, clkginny, for bringing Subtles post over here. It is so good, again. I'm very fortunate in that I was never bullied and never did any bullying. Just cruised through school. I don't even remember seeing any instances of it, but I was with my "crew" and we were pretty much inculcated.
Luna and Snape are such polar opposites. Subtle is right that Luna seems to be very serene; good word for her. She is fortunate that she has a dad who loves her so much and is helping her cope with her loss. It affects Harry in a positive way also.
Snape has taken all that has happened to him and just stewed in the bitterness of it. Bitterness takes root and it's almost impossible to get rid of it. The roots run so deep, it would be like uprooting most of your life to end it. It affects every aspect of who you are, and we see that in Snape; the acerbic wit, the sneers, the anger, and the manner in which he now bullies.
One of the great lessons in JKRs books; how bullying can affect a person for their entire life.

*nods* - I'll have to find that thread - I am personally very familiar with bullying, but I think I responded the way Luna did. One thing I did notice about the bullies though - they tend to have a tendency to remain as stuck in their "attack" patterns as their targets *may* become stuck in their defense patterns. persoanl example in point - 10 years after high school, I run into a group of people who had been among those who targeted me the most. As soon as they saw me, they went straight into their old high-school dialogue. I remembered just blanking the lot of them as if they didnt exist (they were standing right next to me). They hated it. It was a beautiful feeling.

thestralgrin, you have grown beyond those others. Congratulations on being better than they are. No surprise to me though.

What does everyone think Snape's maturity level is at?
The two things that stick with me when it comes to Snape, is how much he likes to rub his moderate amount of power in peoples faces. How he gives difficult homework out in class for what seems like nothing but spite to his students. Or how he rubbed it in Sirius' face that he was out there risking his neck while Sirius was stuck inside.
Also, he picks on people who are younger and underequipped then him. I know there is an argument that Snape is a bully because he was bullied in school, but that doesn't make it ok. Does anyone know anything about Snape that I don't, or do you all think, as I do, that he is one of the most immature adults in the series?

Thank you for the compliment, clkginny (*blush*).

The portrayal of Sirius certainly supports your point, thestralgrin: the kitchen scene at 12 GP clearly shows that he is trying to revert to that bullying, even down to the use of "Snivellus" in an attempt to put Snape in what Sirius perceives to be his place.

The idea of Snape stewing in his own bitterness seems to imply he's choosing to do so....I have a little trouble with that. I rather come at it from a different angle.

I think Snape does believe he's put it behind him. The more we've discussed here, the more I've come to realize how different adult Snape seems from teenage Snape: there's been (on the surface), a total reversal. Young Snape is inarticulate; his movements are described as twitchy and spiderish, even tentative. In contrast, adult Snape is incredibly articulate: he can use words with laser-precision. He doesn't even move the same way anymore: "swept" is the verb for the adult--implying power and grace. I think Snape believes he has transformed himself--he has risen above and beyond his past and become someone very different from the school-age victim.


Even though Dumbledore refers to Snape's going back to hating James' memory in peace, it just doesn't seem that he is actually stewing in his own bitterness. From his perspective, he's doing quite well: he's respected and feared; no one dares pick on him. However, in the perfect psychological portrait that JKR has created, we the readers see that he has not overcome the past: he thinks he's coping; he thinks he's 'over it.' However, we see the hair-trigger temper and the sarcasm, the targeting of Harry and Neville--all of which speaks, as I said in my previous post, quite clearly about what is really going on.

In fact, I'd argue that Snape's problem is that he has 'gotten over it': he has pushed the events into the past--he doesn't speak about what happened to him; he never confronts Lupin and Sirius about what they did...not even in the Shack in PoA. The closest he comes is when he reminds Dumbledore that Sirius was capable of murder at the age of 16--the verb JKR uses for his tone is "breathed" (p. 391). This is significant: the quieter Snape is, the stronger the emotion...and that is the quietest verb JKR has ever used for Snape's speaking.

It further convinces me that he never told Dumbledore about SWM--I think that was the turning point: the decision to become what eventually is adult Snape. SWM was not to be spoken of--or even thought of, as his burying it in the Pensieve indicates. That, along with the incoherence and the twitchiness--and, most likely, the "snivelling"--are packed up and put away in the past. Snape considers them something separate from his 'real' adult self.

Snape has so 'gotten over it' that he has tried to become a completely different person, without ever resolving that past. The result is what we see: someone who does think he's quite right, who thinks he's in complete control, but who cannot always contain that past or maintain that facade. As of right now, he sees no reason to turn and confront that past: he thinks he's got it all quite together, thank you very much.

It'll be interesting to see if JKR takes this any further--will she develop the character further, or leave him stuck where he is? I tend to agree with everyone who has said that he needs to resolve his relationship with Harry, but I think that, to do that, Snape is going to have to face the past--I can't really see how else it could happen. How that could happen, I don't really know. I wonder if it may have started in OotP--if the end of the Occlumency lessons was so accepted by Dumbledore because Snape finally told someone about SWM...that seems to me to account for Dumbledore's sadness at the end of OotP. Before this, when he's spoken of Snape's past with the Marauders, he's been--for lack of better words--dismissive, even a little light, about it. In GoF, in fact, he basically tells Snape to 'get over it' and shakes Sirius' hand...I think it's another mark of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore, indicating just how deep it runs, that he does obey and shake hands with Sirius. I can tell you emphatically that, were I Snape, I certainly would not have; no one could make me perform such a gesture--to this day, I wouldn't do it, 30+ years later--Snape's only got 15-20! : ) Knowing his past with Sirius makes the fact that Snape does it more profound.

K, I feel like an idiot. What's SWM?

btw Well spoken Subtle Science.

I think Snape does believe he's put it behind him. The more we've discussed here, the more I've come to realize how different adult Snape seems from teenage Snape: there's been (on the surface), a total reversal. Young Snape is inarticulate; his movements are described as twitchy and spiderish, even tentative. In contrast, adult Snape is incredibly articulate: he can use words with laser-precision. He doesn't even move the same way anymore: "swept" is the verb for the adult--implying power and grace. I think Snape believes he has transformed himself--he has risen above and beyond his past and become someone very different from the school-age victim.
Great post! You understand Snape so well and your descriptions are perfect! :)

In many ways, Snape has reinvented himself and come into his own as a person. I think he knows himself in many ways, maybe even being aware of some of his own flaws. That is why he knows when to speak and when to shut up at times. However, he does have a petty streak, worthy of Phineas Nigellus. Maybe it's genetic, lol, but he needs to overcome it.

The closest he comes is when he reminds Dumbledore that Sirius was capable of murder at the age of 16--the verb JKR uses for his tone is "breathed" (p. 391). This is significant: the quieter Snape is, the stronger the emotion...and that is the quietest verb JKR has ever used for Snape's speaking.
Great catch! :to:
It further convinces me that he never told Dumbledore about SWM--I think that was the turning point: the decision to become what eventually is adult Snape. SWM was not to be spoken of--or even thought of, as his burying it in the Pensieve indicates. That, along with the incoherence and the twitchiness--and, most likely, the "snivelling"--are packed up and put away in the past. Snape considers them something separate from his 'real' adult self.
It makes me hope that part of the theme of this series is a parallel "closure" of the past for both Snape and Harry.

In many ways, Harry is as cut off from the past as Snape is, due to the circumstances of being an orphan and never knowing his parents. I feel as if Lily is the key here - she thought enough of Snape to try to help him in SWM, and of course she loved Harry. Snape has never said a word about her (being quiet again) and I just believe the healing that must happen may come through some common ground about Lily.
Snape has so 'gotten over it' that he has tried to become a completely different person, without ever resolving that past. The result is what we see: someone who does think he's quite right, who thinks he's in complete control, but who cannot always contain that past or maintain that facade. As of right now, he sees no reason to turn and confront that past: he thinks he's got it all quite together, thank you very much.
He does let Harry see a chink in his armor during Occlumency, when he all but admits that Dumbledore is more powerful, and therefore feels secure enough to say Voldemort's name. Harry sees him rub the Dark Mark on his arm "apparently unconsciously." To me, that is letting Harry see a little more of the real Snape than usual.
It'll be interesting to see if JKR takes this any further--will she develop the character further, or leave him stuck where he is? I tend to agree with everyone who has said that he needs to resolve his relationship with Harry, but I think that, to do that, Snape is going to have to face the past--I can't really see how else it could happen. [/quote
I think it has got to happen, or what else is the series about?
[quote]How that could happen, I don't really know. I wonder if it may have started in OotP--if the end of the Occlumency lessons was so accepted by Dumbledore because Snape finally told someone about SWM...that seems to me to account for Dumbledore's sadness at the end of OotP. Before this, when he's spoken of Snape's past with the Marauders, he's been--for lack of better words--dismissive, even a little light, about it.
If James hadn't died the way he did, and Sirius gone to jail, Snape might have told Dumbledore before. Harry's snooping in the Pensieve forces the truth from the dark dungeon into the sunlight of Dumbledore's office.

In GoF, in fact, he basically tells Snape to 'get over it' and shakes Sirius' hand...I think it's another mark of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore, indicating just how deep it runs, that he does obey and shake hands with Sirius. I can tell you emphatically that, were I Snape, I certainly would not have; no one could make me perform such a gesture--to this day, I wouldn't do it, 30+ years later--Snape's only got 15-20! : ) Knowing his past with Sirius makes the fact that Snape does it more profound.
I sure do agree with that! Dumbledore is very fatherly in that scene, but the fact that he may not know about SWM makes it even more powerful in hindsight.

I think Snape does believe he's put it behind him. The more we've discussed here, the more I've come to realize how different adult Snape seems from teenage Snape: there's been (on the surface), a total reversal. Young Snape is inarticulate; his movements are described as twitchy and spiderish, even tentative. In contrast, adult Snape is incredibly articulate: he can use words with laser-precision. He doesn't even move the same way anymore: "swept" is the verb for the adult--implying power and grace. I think Snape believes he has transformed himself--he has risen above and beyond his past and become someone very different from the school-age victim.

I noticed that too: Young Snape is a babbling mess who will curse anything, Adult Snape is a master of wordplay and we rarely see him actually use his wand now. (In fact, one reason I love Snape's character so much is his so wickedly dry and subtle wit, rather British, you've got to think to get some of it.)

I'd argue that Snape's problem is that he has 'gotten over it': he has pushed the events into the past--he doesn't speak about what happened to him; he never confronts Lupin and Sirius about what they did...not even in the Shack in PoA. The closest he comes is when he reminds Dumbledore that Sirius was capable of murder at the age of 16--the verb JKR uses for his tone is "breathed" (p. 391). This is significant: the quieter Snape is, the stronger the emotion...and that is the quietest verb JKR has ever used for Snape's speaking.

Yes, I think it's been pointed out on this thread before that Snape gets quieter and quieter the angrier he gets. And there's also the significance of his reminder that Sirius tried to kill him. I think that those who have been bullied before have been beaten up at worst, I don't think I've heard of anyone who's been bullied having been the victim of attempted murder.

Snape has so 'gotten over it' that he has tried to become a completely different person, without ever resolving that past. The result is what we see: someone who does think he's quite right, who thinks he's in complete control, but who cannot always contain that past or maintain that facade. As of right now, he sees no reason to turn and confront that past: he thinks he's got it all quite together, thank you very much.

The unfortunate thing, though, with Snape is that the past is coming back to life: once more Voldy's running amok, and again Snape is the spy, he's got to deal with all these people he thought he could avoid forever. This sounds most un-Snape-like; he doesn't strike me as a runner.
Also: there's a great quote that reads something like, "Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are condemned to repeat them."

It'll be interesting to see if JKR takes this any further--will she develop the character further, or leave him stuck where he is? I tend to agree with everyone who has said that he needs to resolve his relationship with Harry, but I think that, to do that, Snape is going to have to face the past--I can't really see how else it could happen. How that could happen, I don't really know. I wonder if it may have started in OotP--if the end of the Occlumency lessons was so accepted by Dumbledore because Snape finally told someone about SWM...that seems to me to account for Dumbledore's sadness at the end of OotP. Before this, when he's spoken of Snape's past with the Marauders, he's been--for lack of better words--dismissive, even a little light, about it. In GoF, in fact, he basically tells Snape to 'get over it' and shakes Sirius' hand...I think it's another mark of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore, indicating just how deep it runs, that he does obey and shake hands with Sirius. I can tell you emphatically that, were I Snape, I certainly would not have; no one could make me perform such a gesture--to this day, I wouldn't do it, 30+ years later--Snape's only got 15-20! : ) Knowing his past with Sirius makes the fact that Snape does it more profound.

Man, subtle, I think I'd enjoy your classes. So thoughtful, so analytical, so articulate. Maybe my sister's classes will be like that (she's going into English teaching).
Anyway, Snape. I think, though, that Snape's personality is already changing. Remember, in PS/SS, he was constantly sniping and taking points off of Harry? In OotP, he's progressed so far as to even give a veiled compliment to Harry. Snape has matured a great deal over 5 years, especially since Voldy came back. He just seems much more put together (though he's rather patronizing in the kitchen scene just to get at Sirius). Unfortunately, I think that the only way the Harry Filter on Snape will ever be changed is if Snape or DD reveals just why DD trusts Snape, or if Snape does something tragically heroic (which doesn't seem very Slytherin). If anything tragic did happen to Snape, Harry, and the reader through him, would feel for the guy. I personally would cry anyway if Snape snuffed it.

One last thought, then I need to call a friend about a movie, there's a song I think is very Snape. It's called "I Am A Rock" by Simon and Garfunkel. I found the lyrics here: http://www.lyricsondemand.com/s/simonandgarfunkellyrics/iamarocklyrics.html

If you've ever heard the song, it's very defiant until the last two lines, which are rather sad by comparison. Just thought I'd share some good tunes. And it's applicable! :D

Pappette--Sorry! SWM = Snape's Worst Memory. We're all too lazy to type it out, so we do tend to sound as if we're speaking in code! (Um. Well. I'm too lazy, but I'm hiding behind the collective).

23DuelsADay--*blush* And Good Luck to your sister!!!

I think that it may not just be Snape who is changing, but Harry's perception, to some degree. Not that he's liking Snape any more, but that, as he gets older, he just tends to notice more.

silver ink pot--Good catch about the rubbing of the arm and the acknowledgment of Dumbledore's power--and, by implication, Snape's own apprehension about Voldemort. Another missed opportunity for Harry to realize that here is the adult who is truly treating him as a young adult--not quite an equal ('Call me Professor'), but as someone with a brain and an ability to comprehend and understand. Not quite the same approach as the assumption that the students are all the usual bunch of dunderheads....

And I agree that Lily is the key. More and more I'm believing that Snape did and does love Lily...I don't care if it seems cliched. It fits too many pieces together in the jigsaw puzzle of this plot!

Awe rats! I'm usually good at figuring out what those abbreviations stand for. Hindsight, I should have figured that out. Thanks! :D

Awe rats! I'm usually good at figuring out what those abbreviations stand for. Hindsight, I should have figured that out. Thanks! :DDon't feel bad - I had the exact same problem when I first started lurking/posting. I couldn't get "Single, White, Male" out of my head! :rotfl:

And I agree that Lily is the key. More and more I'm believing that Snape did and does love Lily...I don't care if it seems cliched. It fits too many pieces together in the jigsaw puzzle of this plot!I agree there, it would explain a lot and the reason why Sirius felt the need to defend his friend by constantly trying to push Snape away from the group. A friend defending another friend’s love for someone special against competition as you might say. If that is true and Snape loved Lily then it would have broken his heart to see James marry her and could have been the reason Snape joined the death eaters in the first place.

23DuelsADay, I liked the song. Very appropriate.

Subtle, I loved your ideas about Snape's perception of himself in relation to the bullying. And may I add that I, too, wish I'd had a teacher like you? I never realised the subject could be this much fun, and it's not just because of the material we're working on. I finally see the point of hunting down every little reference to this or that until it all fits.

Originally Posted by 23DuelsADay
Yes, I think it's been pointed out on this thread before that Snape gets quieter and quieter the angrier he gets. And there's also the significance of his reminder that Sirius tried to kill him. I think that those who have been bullied before have been beaten up at worst, I don't think I've heard of anyone who's been bullied having been the victim of attempted murder.

I can easily understand why that would have been a huge shock to him. It's not something you expect, even from people who have bullied you for years. Unfortunately, it does happen.

Stray thought: Is this the missing piece of the "why did Snape choose to follow Sirius's directions" puzzle? Snape may not have trusted Sirius, but he clearly did not believe him capable of anything as dangerous as that. He may well have thought that, even if Sirius had set a trap for him, if he was unable to defend himself against whatever had been planned he would at least have been able to endure it? Trust is not absolute; you can feel absolutely certain that someone is going to be nasty to you without believing them to be dangerous. In SWM Snape is helpless when he is bullied and humiliated, but he does not appear to be afraid.

Alisel--I might have to hire you to come to my classes next year and tell them that...Relentless is probably the word they would use for me. *thanks!*

Interesting point about why Snape may have trusted Sirius. That makes sense--especially because he doesn't really seem to be afraid at all during SWM...frustrated at being made helpless...also determined to be not helpless. He's certainly not fearful of escalating the situation, with his swearing and the face slash, even though it's at least two to one.

And that also is a great demonstration of sheer stubbornness: there's a tenacity there that's indicative of an iron will.

And if, after this, he did decide to become less vulnerable and more aggressive, he may very well have thought himself capable of handling whatever prank they were all up to. Whatever the reasoning, I can't see Snape suspecting at all that Lupin was a werewolf--that cannot possibly have been in the mix of what he thought was going on.

So--yeah...unfortunately, Snape may have given Sirius more credit than Sirius deserved....

Another interesting slant is that Dumbledore knows about this incident. It occurs to me that this did not need to come out, either: no one else was involved but the Marauders. It's even more limited than SWm, which had an audience and one person--Lily--who definitely disapproved of the activity. So who told? Did Snape tell because--ahem--attempted murder was a bit much? Did James bust his best friend? Did Lupin bust all of them?

Snape's loving Lily only fits into a particular jigsaw and there are several ways to look at the evidence.
After I heard JK Rowling's statement that Cuaron guessed a few things "right" in the film, the one thing that hasn't even been hinted at in the books so far was Lupin's talking about Lily "seeing the goodness in people who couldn't see it for themselves."
That could apply to Snape but why would Lupin even know about that.
I suspect they didn't exactly have heart to heart conversations back in the day so I highly doubt Lupin was thinking of Severus.
I think he was thinking of himself and any sort of triangle was James-Lily-Lupin (unrequited of course)

And let's look at SWM. Yeh, Lily trys to help. Snape demonstrates his how well he could use the term mudblood and Lily immediately backs off and joins in.
"Fine." she said coolly, " I won't bother in the future. And I'd wash my pants if I were
you, Snivelius."
So there's Lily, using the exact same insulting name as James and Sirius use.
If the adult Snape has a real Achilles heel it the lack of insight into his own behavior and his tendency to blame others for his problems (and sometimes he's right, but not
always).
There's no way the fifteen year old Snape was any better. He would not see that his use of the term "mudblood" was related to Lily's response. He would see simply one more person attacking him.
That's why, for me, any Snape-Lily-James triangle would come across as plot contrivance more than anything growing out the characters behavior so far.

When Snape calls Lily a Mudblood, "Lily blinked" (p. 648, US hardcover). It's hard not to see that as surprise. He uses a name to insult her; she responds in kind--she inflicts pain in retaliation for his insult. And she knows exactly what word to use, just as he did.

As has been discussed a number of times here before--that Snape never mentions Lily at all is extremely interesting. He knows precisly how to get Harry's goat, and Snape never brings up the guaranteed winner in any provocation--insulting Mom.

It seems quite unlikely that Snape would ever say a word to Lily--that does not seem to be in his character at all (ahh--back to the Gothic topic again!). I definitely do not see a triangle amongst Snape, Lily, and James: I just cannot picture Snape allowing James (or Sirius) to know that about him--and part of my feeling comes from my guess that Sirius would not keep silent in the present day about it; again--that's excellent ammunition, and I can't imagine Sirius' not using it, especially in the kitchen scene at 12GP when Snape refers to James' arrogance.

If that is true and Snape loved Lily then it would have broken his heart to see James marry her and could have been the reason Snape joined the death eaters in the first place.

I don't think it was romantic love between Snape and Lily. At the time of SWM I doubt it if they spoke to each other very often.

However I don't doubt that there might have been some kind of love between the two, but it fits better if it was "love between relatives."

I've been wondering about Snape's family ties for months, and when I finally settled alongside with one theory, a lot of free ends tied up nicely. Actually almost all of them, the story started to complete itself on it's own.

I'll start it from the very beginning. From Grandparents Evanses. They could have been wizards (most likely muggleborn), who had a wizard daughter and a squib son. The squib son married a muggle woman and they had two daughters: Lily and Petunia. They were delighted to have a witch in the family, because they already knew about the Wizarding world.
The Evans' wizading daughter married (??? I'm nut sure if she got that far, that she actually married) a pureblood wizard from a beneficial family, hiding her ancestry. The husband with the noble bloodline was the Black family's current heir: Mr Black Sr. Of course her ancestry must have come to light sooner or later, and then Mr Black divorced her. But by that time they already had a son, whom Mr Black disowned. This child was named after the customs of the Black family, a constellation: Perseus. But got his mother last name.


Then we have a good explanation of Snape's first memory of crying in the corner while his father was shouting and his mother was covering (maybe a plot device to keep Harry from noticing her eyes' colour?)
Right after that her mother got cursed (I'm inclined to think that Mr Black transformed her face to look accordingly to her ancestry - a Dark Magic curse that resulted in a permanent dog-head for her)

Mr Black then sent Perseus to his later "in laws" the Malfoys, and they changed his name to Severus Snape ala the anagram. With this step the shame could be avoided, noone would reveal the dirty spot on the noblest house of wizardkind. Snape grows up in the pureblood enviroment, treated as inferior. Small children don't have the rebelliousness of the teenagers. Snape's response to this treatment could have been to try to please them, even through denying half of himself. He took the path willingly that Sirius refused to take. That could be the base of their resentment, also the foundation of the intriguing Malfoy-Snape connection.

Interesting, that Snape refers to Gr Place as Sirius' mother's house, and refuses to eat there (can't help it, Count of Monte Christo keeps to come into my mind). It very well could be, that Mrs Black brought the povelty and Mr Black the aristocracy into the family. Also interesting, that Sirius tells Snape not giving orders in his house. If we take into consideration their supposed history, it's a bow rather under belt. No wonder that Snape's face turn into a rather ugly colour and retailates right after.

About his turn from Voldemort, it could very well been because of Regulus' death. They were half-brothers after all, and had similar ideologies. This is the turning point of Lucius Malfoy's loyalties too, by that time he was married and Narcissa was pregnant with Draco. He had just seen how little blood purity meant to Voldemort against his own agenda. And by then Lucius found out that Voldemort is a halfblood himself. Lucius would welcome the prophecy about a boy, who could conquer the Dark Lord (he used exactly the same word -conquer- in GOF speaking to Harry in reference to Voldemort, so he knows the first part. It could have been Regulus, who overheard it.)
Snape however knows about it too, but thinks it's already fulfilled and Harry was only a device, it wasn't Harry's doing stopping Voldemort.

During occumency lessons, his reactions to Harry's memories were also telling. Once he saw 3 memories (dragon rearing, the Mirror of Erised and Cedric dead) and he turned white. I was contemplating the reason: I excluded the dragon, the other two has equal chances. Then I reread the Mirror of Erised chapter in PS, and I realised, there were many people in the mirror together with James and Lily, Harry just noticed them later. Some of them had same green eyes as his... It could have been quite unnerving to Snape to find his own mother in Harry Potter's hearts deepest desire.
The occlumency lessons helped Snape a little to realize their similarity. Of course Snape couldn't just turn around and make amends, he can't admit his failings so easily. He did what he usually does (and eventually the same what Harry did after Sirius' death): he went to denial instead.
It was easier for him to view Harry as James' carbon copy. He could blame James for getting Lily killed by his foolhardiness and escape facing his own guilt. I think James and he screwed up majorly and that resulted in the tragedy in Godric Hollow. That's why (apart from the bullying in school of course) he can't even look at Harry without nausea. We must not forget, that there were two other memories too in the pensieve. He has trouble separating Harry from James, but doesn't make too much effort either, because it's still easier to blame James -thus Harry- for everything.

About SWM in this light: the bullying would be only one reason to pull out this memory before dealing with Harry. It could have been the first time when he openly chose one part of himself over the other. Calling Lily a mudblood could mean he repudiated his mother's side and took side in the war. And if he meant it or just said it off the cuff is open to debate, but that Snape was just standing there like a fool while James and Lily argued seem to indicate the second possibility.
While it's never easy to deal with things that others did to us, it's always worse facing our own misdeeds, especially when we highly regret them.

I think in the next book they will finally have to clear up some misunderstanding. Snape still thinks Harry stole from him, that he's arrogant and disrespectful of adults, and just waiting for a weak spot to jump on and ridicule him, and finally that Harry was a coward rather that going to him to apologise over the pensieve incident.
On the other hand Harry has to quit the same denial as Snape's been dwelling in the last 14 years, namely, that Snape had little to do with the whole mess, that resulted in Sirius' death.

Well, Serpentina, that's an interesting theory, though I don't agree with a good deal of it. I do think, however, that the next book will answer many more questions about Snape and his background.

And subtle, I don't think Snape had a thing for Lily, if anything he may have respected her, but not liked her. He hated James, nothing would change that, but Lily was a lot more tolerable.
A thought though: maybe Snape's relationship with Harry is evolving because Snape may see some of himself in Harry. I mean, Snape still sees mostly James in Harry, but they're relating to each other differently. They both apparently had rather traumatic and lousy childhoods, both had people putting them down, as it said at the end of SWM (I'm paraphrasing, don't have the book with me), "Harry knew what it felt like to be taunted in the middle of a crowd of onlookers." Snape may realise that he and HArry have a lot more in common than he thought at first glance. Harry is starting to distinguish himself from the James stereotype.

Anyway, I need to end this post, because it's rambling and I'm sure I repeated myself a couple of times. I didn't sleep long ast night, we were trying to pull an all-nighter, but it didn't work out, so I went to sleep (officially) at about 4:30 AM. So I'm a little loopy. :drool:

The portrayal of Sirius certainly supports your point, thestralgrin: the kitchen scene at 12 GP clearly shows that he is trying to revert to that bullying, even down to the use of "Snivellus" in an attempt to put Snape in what Sirius perceives to be his place.

Well-put. That was definitely what I had in mind when I posted that - just too late in the night for me to dig around for the right references for backup. But that incident with me reminded me of that Black-Snape exchange.

I can tell you emphatically that, were I Snape, I certainly would not have; no one could make me perform such a gesture--to this day, I wouldn't do it, 30+ years later--Snape's only got 15-20! : ) Knowing his past with Sirius makes the fact that Snape does it more profound.

That would have been a gauraunteed way to get me to lose respect for the one who expected to do that. I would have seriously questioned that person's loyalties to me. The fact that Snape forces himself to do so, even though the bullying issues were a lot more serious (we're talking about someone being able to grit his teeth & shake hands with someone who attempted his murder and got away with it ... could I have done that? dont think so)

As has been discussed a number of times here before--that Snape never mentions Lily at all is extremely interesting. He knows precisly how to get Harry's goat, and Snape never brings up the guaranteed winner in any provocation--insulting Mom.

- again, a good catch. That is something I have noticed again & again -that Snape does not mention Lily. Ever. Maybe it's something too painful for him to bring up, maybe even he considers it too low to insult Harry via his mother, though doing so via his father is ok. I also support the idea that Snape has a strong and ongoing attatchment to Lily - mainly one-sided, of course. Interesting too that she blinked when he came out with the "mudblood" insult - obviously that had come completely out of left-field for her. Makes one wonder about whether there had been some previous (and friendlier) exchanges between the two? I have generaly put the insult down a lot to teenage boy's pride, and the possibility that his 'pureblood' slyth cronies (who may have been the closest thing he had to supportive relationships at the time) - had been needling him on the side for talking to Lily ... and were watching the SWM incident at the time. Had it not been for that incident, would he have been able to muster the courage to openly go with her? I wonder ...

- and something else which puzzles me a lot re the Snape character & the way he may develop. In a lot of JKR's interviews she gives the impression of being quite adamant that Snape is not a very positive being (i.e - it being a horrible idea that someone is in love with him etc), Yet - and this is interesting - her two personal "voices" in the books are Dumbledore and Hermione. Who both are the ones who most consistently stand up for him ... curiouser and curiouser.

My personal belief is that if Snape does ever 'turn bad' in the future (hope not, but I am not the boss here ^- ), it may probably in such a way that would make him deserve far more pity than hate. Something like a last straw & he breaks, perhaps.

How I would think of the person who'd ask me to shake hands with any of the people who bullied me would depend entirely upon who asked me to do it...but I can't think of anybody who could make me do it. That's why I think that's a major scene for Snape, despite how small the detail is. He submits to Dumbledore's request: it's as much a declaration of his loyalty as is the revelation of the Dark Mark.

I think JKR's warnings about Snape simply have to do with the fact that he is a very unpleasant person. It's nothing to do with his morals, but just with his personality. She'd shock me if she suddenly changed the direction of his character, the plot, and the themes by having Snape turn evil. He's not evil; he's just "not nice." He's a very tough person to like--as is proven many times a day in postings on this forum. And he's very tough to like as he is--I also think JKR doesn't want people romanticizing Snape--I know there are posters on the forums who think that's exactly what we do here on this thread, but, speaking for myself, I don't have any delusions that Snape is really quite sweet underneath it all...He's tough to like as he is, but I do like the character as he is, with all his faults and nastiness and contradictions. But I think we've yet to hear the worst of what he's done in the past. And, since I know he's "not too nice," there isn't anything much JKR can come up with in that area that would shock me. I think one of the major foundations of his character is his trying to live with whatever it is he has done.

Despite his not being too nice, I doubt the sincerity of his use of Mudblood during SWM. It's been kicked around here before...I think his primary motive is pride--to get Lily to butt out as fast as possible. That stubbornness: he'll handle the situation on his own, even if he's not exactly doing a bang-up job...And the last thing an outcast needs is to be rescued by a Muggleborn witch who also happens to be a Griffyndor. The only shot at acceptance Snape has is with his own house--all of the above won't help in the least.

She'd shock me if she suddenly changed the direction of his character, the plot, and the themes by having Snape turn evil. He's not evil; he's just "not nice." He's a very tough person to like--as is proven many times a day in postings on this forum. And he's very tough to like as he is--I also think JKR doesn't want people romanticizing Snape--I know there are posters on the forums who think that's exactly what we do here on this thread, but, speaking for myself, I don't have any delusions that Snape is really quite sweet underneath it all...He's tough to like as he is, but I do like the character as he is, with all his faults and nastiness and contradictions. But I think we've yet to hear the worst of what he's done in the past. And, since I know he's "not too nice," there isn't anything much JKR can come up with in that area that would shock me. I think one of the major foundations of his character is his trying to live with whatever it is he has done.
The irony is that JK did create a character that, although he is not necessarily likeable, is honorable and intriguing. After reading the first book, I found myself looking at him a lot closer. He honors Dumbledore and the chance that Dumbledore took with him, he protects his students (even as he shatters their egoes), he is a survivor. Yet he is curt, sarcastic, unsympathetic, demanding, and cruel at times. He is the guarantee that if you make it through potions, you can make it through life. All these traits gave me an almost insatiable urge to figure him out. And, I do like his character, I admire those traits that are hardest to see, even when I want to reach in the book and slap him when he tells Hermione that he sees no difference in her teeth.

I can't see myself being too surprised by JK throwing out something worse about his past. I can't see him as evil, anymore, though. It would contradict too much of what Jk has already shown us of his character.

And the last thing an outcast needs is to be rescued by a Muggleborn witch who also happens to be a Griffyndor.
Also, aside from stubborness and reputation, there is that rather indomitable pride of his.

*nods* - sorry about that, just me indulging a bit of pessimism again :blush: - and no, unpleasant does not = evil. Definitely does not - think of Umbridge & her sugar-sweet facade ... not that I myself would find that pleasant. Better someone biting at you all the time that at least you know where you stand with.

Interesting, that Snape refers to Gr Place as Sirius' mother's house, and refuses to eat there (can't help it, Count of Monte Christo keeps to come into my mind). It very well could be, that Mrs Black brought the povelty and Mr Black the aristocracy into the family. Also interesting, that Sirius tells Snape not giving orders in his house. If we take into consideration their supposed history, it's a bow rather under belt. No wonder that Snape's face turn into a rather ugly colour and retailates right after.That is very interesting and great point about point about the Sirius’ mother’s house, it suggests that Snape resents Black’s mother more than he does Snape. Snape chooses not to eat at the house due to a lack of respect towards Sirius’s mother and not because he dislike Sirius by the above statement The Malfoy’s blacken his mothers name for perhaps marry a half blood, which would explain the argument Snape saw as a child, the persecution of his mother over and over again for bringing in what the Blacks would consider filth. Perhaps we saw through Snape’s memory the way the Black family treat those they wish to take off the tapestry due to betrayal of there blood heritage. The arguments in the house where really all about Sirius Black’s mother and not really about Sirius.

About his turn from Voldemort, it could very well been because of Regulus' death. They were half-brothers after all, and had similar ideologies. This is the turning point of Lucius Malfoy's loyalties too, by that time he was married and Narcissa was pregnant with Draco. He had just seen how little blood purity meant to Voldemort against his own agenda. And by then Lucius found out that Voldemort is a halfblood himself. Lucius would welcome the prophecy about a boy, who could conquer the Dark Lord (he used exactly the same word -conquer- in GOF speaking to Harry in reference to Voldemort, so he knows the first part. It could have been Regulus, who overheard it.)
Snape however knows about it too, but thinks it's already fulfilled and Harry was only a device, it wasn't Harry's doing stopping Voldemort.This also makes me think about Snape and whether he ran for Dumbledore to help Harry or whether Snape for the first time showed concern over Sirius and wanted to make sure he was safe.

I tend to agree that the mirror may have had something to do with Snape’s whiteness as he already new Voldemort had returned and killed Cedric so it should not have been that shocking to him.

What I am interested to see is how Snape handles Sirius Black’s death and the way he interacts with Harry over such issues that may arise over the next book. I can see a huge argument looming between Snape and Harry, something readers might use to suggest Snape is awful but I reckon they both need to get it all out of there system. From day one Snape has been criticized for picking on Harry but if we really look at the whole picture we can see that from day one before Harry had even spoken a word to Snape and Snape a word to Harry that Harry was condemning Snape. Look at the sorting ceremony, not a good word spoken about Snape and Harry already stamps his opinion on Snape there and then as someone he dislikes. Harry has shown very little respect to Snape, nor acknowledged the fact that he has saved his life on many occasions. All the time we say, ‘well Harry is younger than Snape and Snape should know better’, but at what age do we draw the line and say enough of the blaming Snape for everything and only seeing him as the evil one. I thought it was very rude of Harry to intrude into Snape’s thoughts the way he did. I think even Dumbledore decided to draw the line with Harry at the end of OotP when he was blaming everything on Snape again for the reason as to why Sirius had died. If Dumbledore can not convince him then Snape may have to put his foot down because I doubt he will tolerate being falsely accused of something he has not done anymore, especially will be 16 years old. At the same time Harry will not be treated by Snape in the same manner anymore either, so I see a huge argument that might reveal some of Snape’s personal side and definetly more of Snape and Harry's characteristics.

Serpentina and Tane: your posts made me wonder..
If seeing the Mirror of erised in Harry's memories is what makes Snape go pale (well, paler than his usual yellowish glow ;)), it means realising that what Harry yearns for is a family around him shakes him somehow. Then I started to wonder: what does Snape yearn for? The same thing? It doesn't look like he had a family around him to support him.. is he so shocked because he knows he'd see the same thing in the Mirror?

We know DD would see a nice pair of wollen socks.. what would Severus see?
If he would see a family, does his view of Harry change because he realises thay basically want the same thing? Or does it aggravates him more to think he has the same desire as an arrogant little boy? He might feel harry doesn't have a right to wish for the same thing, that he doesn't deserve it.. any thoughts?

Serpentine and Tane: your posts made me wonder..
If seeing the Mirror of erised in Harry's memories is what makes Snape go pale (well, paler than his usual yellowish glow ;)), it means realising that what Harry yearns for is a family around him shakes him somehow. Then I started to wonder: what does Snape yearn for? The same thing? It doesn't look like he had a family around him to support him.. is he so shocked because he knows he'd see the same thing in the Mirror?

We know DD would see a nice pair of wollen socks.. what would Severus see?
If he would see a family, does his view of Harry change because he realises thay basically want the same thing? Or does it aggravates him more to think he has the same desire as an arrogant little boy? He might feel harry doesn't have a right to wish for the same thing, that he doesn't deserve it.. any thoughts?

Perhaps it is what Snape would see aswell. I would think that that would aggravate him because Harry is sort of taking away Snape'a own personal desire by having the same one himself. It also means another connection between Harry and Snape which means one between Snape and James which would make Harry's life evn worse.

clkginny--Your point about getting through potions/getting through life is well taken. JKR even made a comment to that effect, about why Dumbledore allows Snape to teach as he does: that Harry needs to learn to deal with such unpleasantries. Really--if he thinks Snape is mean and unfair...Hang out with Voldemort for a while. Potions suddenly looks like playtime.

Snape's refusal to eat at 12GP makes perfect simple sense to me: why in the world would he want to eat at the same table as Sirius? Molly obviously respects Snape, but that can't possibly compensate for what it would be like to endure an entire meal with Sirius...I'd opt for the handshake, myself, over dinner with the guy.

And as for his going pale at the images of the dragon, Cedric, and James and Lily--well, I, too, dismiss the dragon...I don't think Snape has an unspoken phobia of large lizards.....

I do think he's reacting to the people he sees. All are Voldemort's victims--the proof of what Voldemort is capable of. It is then that Snape delivers the "Fools who wear their hearts" speech--the gist of which is that Harry will not be prepared for Voldemort, that he has no idea of what he's up against: "they stand no chance against his powers!" (p. 537, US hardcover). The line could just as well refer to Cedric, James, and Lily...

Snape is afraid that Harry, with his apparently cavalier attitude, is deluded enough to think he can face down Voldemort however and whenever he pleases, having no appreciation for the incredible threat Voldemort poses. Snape knows, and he sees the reminder of how high the cost can be, in Harry's mind. That is what so upsets him that he loses emotional control and delivers his speech about the importance of maintaining emotional control (you gotta love the contradictions in this guy).

Snape is a really complex character and I like how he's actually just showing "tough love" if you could use that term to describe his relationship with Harry. I do wanna see his reactions to Sirius's death, and JKR said that his boggart and Patronus form would be important...

Serpentine and Tane: your posts made me wonder..
Serpentine and Serpentina are two different people, Severa. ;)

Great posts, everyone! :tu: I don't have time to reply right now, I should be working, really ...

Serpentine and Serpentina are two different people, Severa.ooops, better go and edit!

I do think he's reacting to the people he sees. All are Voldemort's victims--the proof of what Voldemort is capable of. It is then that Snape delivers the "Fools who wear their hearts" speech--the gist of which is that Harry will not be prepared for Voldemort, that he has no idea of what he's up against: "they stand no chance against his powers!" (p. 537, US hardcover). The line could just as well refer to Cedric, James, and Lily...

Snape is afraid that Harry, with his apparently cavalier attitude, is deluded enough to think he can face down Voldemort however and whenever he pleases, having no appreciation for the incredible threat Voldemort poses. Snape knows, and he sees the reminder of how high the cost can be, in Harry's mind. That is what so upsets him that he loses emotional control and delivers his speech about the importance of maintaining emotional control (you gotta love the contradictions in this guy).I do like this idea, Subtle! Correct me if I'm wrong: you're saying that what is unsettling in Harry's memories is that they are a sign of Harry's (and others') weakness. Basically, Snape is afraid of what could happen to people who show their heart's desires to VM, because those desires could be used for a threat (and they have, in Harry's case). And yes, we do love the contradiction in this guy or we wouldn't be here! :p

But now there's more wondering.. Has Snape experienced a desire turned to threat by LV? Is that why he knows exactly what happens to "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves"?

He might feel harry doesn't have a right to wish for the same thing, that he doesn't deserve it.. any thoughts?

- which in itself would be a pretty arrogant attitude to have, if it were true. But if he was shocked at recognising that both he & Harry basically wanted the same things, it could be because it brings the two of them closer in a way - and as things stand I think both of them would rather see themselves as different from the other as possible ;)

Snape sees three people killed by Voldemort. One was a student--whom Snape is bound to protect--a completely innocent bystander, who had nothing to do with fighting Voldemort, no involvement, no warning, nothing. His death was completely and utterly unforeseen--collateral damage. It shows that no one is safe from Voldemort--even the ones who don't even know what's going on. James and Lily--I think it's pretty certain that Snape tried to save them. They were expereinced fighters; they'd been successful in "defying" Voldemort three times; both are acknowledged to be of superior magical talent. Voldemort killed them, too.

At the very least, Snape is supposed to be teaching Harry how to defend his mind against Voldemort, and what Snape sees is that Harry won't do it--not that he can't. I think what detonates Snape is that he knows Harry is no Cedric--he's faced Voldemort and won; however, he's also no James/Lily: he doesn't have that much experience and he hasn't really faced Voldemort at full strength...To a certain extent, in GoF, but Voldemort underestimated Harry and, in a way, didn't really try to kill him--a little too much showmanship and not enough getting down to serious business....

Snape knows what he and Harry are up against--Snape sees the price that can be paid with the slightest mistake; he also knows that he himself isn't a match for Voldemort (as he implies when he rubs the Dark Mark and speaks of Dumbledore's power)...But, to him, it looks as though Harry won't be a match, either...Because he's too arrogant and careless to appreciate what the price will be.

If Snape had anything to do with Regulus' death, the vision of these other victims is just going to be that much more powerful to him. The only thing that Snape is better at than Voldemort is Occlumency: his control keeps him alive. And he can't get Harry to practice that control.


And I would not be surprised if Snape had a 'desire turned to threat' by Voldemort. I went on at some length in the Decon thread once about what Voldemort's methods of recruitment must have been. Another poster had pronounced that it was just that anyone who joined Voldemort was an idiot, and that was that. However, Voldemort himself gives quite a lesson on his actual methods in CoS, when Tom Riddle explains how he got Ginny under his control. Like any psychopath, Voldemort is a master manipulator: what he really wants is total power for himself. Even his agenda against the Mudbloods isn't all that important to him, relatively speaking--he jettisons it pretty quickly in CoS when he realizes Harry Potter's got his diary. Thos followers who are genocidal maniacs (Bellatrix, Malfoy) can be brought into the fold by straightforward promise to fulfill their homicidal impulses. Others, however, need luring: homicide doesn't generally win a broad base of support. Deception is needed--a little bait and switch. I'd think that, whatever he offered Snape, it looked pretty good at first. Clearly, then--something happened that Snape not only disagreed, but has ever since actively worked against Voldemort.

But now there's more wondering.. Has Snape experienced a desire turned to threat by LV? Is that why he knows exactly what happens to "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves"?Since I first read that line, I thought Snape was speaking from personal experience, especially since he does the opposite of wear his heart on his sleeve--his heart is hidden. We don't know at all what he cares about (and there must be something), only what he dislikes. By judging all of his behavior and reading between the lines, I think we can conclude that he cares about Dumbledore, but this isn't something that would be apparent to anyone who wasn't overanalyzing his behavior. Perhaps only the other staff with whom he seems a bit more free would know. Certainly with Voldemort, he would use Occlumency to disguise his care for Dumbledore.

Occlumency also brings me to another thought I had ages ago on the "Deconstructing" thread. Recently, subtle pointed out how different is the description of Snape now compared with his description in SWM. He is no longer awkward and twitchy. He sweeps and is graceful. He no longer would burst out with a string of swear words and hexes. He chooses his words very carefully and they don't seem to burst from him uncontrolled (not even at the end of PoA, although he is less controlled than usual then). Snape went through some transformation and I think the beginning of his transformation, learning to hide his true feelings, led him to naturally become an Occlumens. Perhaps that's why Voldemort wouldn't suspect he is an Occlumens: if he wore his heart on his sleeve in the beginning, Voldemort might not realize that his heart had changed if he was hiding it.

Serpentina and Tane: We know DD would see a nice pair of wollen socks.. what would Severus see?
If he would see a family, does his view of Harry change because he realises thay basically want the same thing? Or does it aggravates him more to think he has the same desire as an arrogant little boy? He might feel harry doesn't have a right to wish for the same thing, that he doesn't deserve it.. any thoughts?

I think Snape saw exactly the half of the crowd that Harry did (Potters excluded of course ;) )
I think it unsettled him because he doesn't want to share anything with Harry, it's easier for him to deny their blood relation. That's why he never mentions Lily, and treats Harry as James Jr. He did exactly the same thing when he was young, just the other way around. That time he denied his Evans' side. To quote a very good fanfic: he seems to be caught up in a dichotomy. (Although this phrase was told by himself in reference of Harry, but it expresses Snape quite well too)

What I am interested to see is how Snape handles Sirius Black’s death and the way he interacts with Harry over such issues that may arise over the next book.
I'm very much interested what his first reaction was when he got know about Sirius' death. When a very close family member dies it rather unlocks the person's most buried feelings. In such situations people tend to surprise even themselves, feeling-wise. I think this phenomenon is beyond the phrase: Blood runs thicker than water.
After the first shock it's almost sure, that he covered every other feeling up with anger as he usually does. He told Sirius to stay put after all, so he can thank his own recklessness that he ended up dead.


I can see a huge argument looming between Snape and Harry, something readers might use to suggest Snape is awful but I reckon they both need to get it all out of their system.... I see a huge argument that might reveal some of Snape’s personal side and definetly more of Snape and Harry's characteristics.

There is a lot misunderstanding and a good deal of prejudice against each other since day one. Harry had the first bad impression of Snape on the sorting, but Snape had his own of Harry as well. When Dumbledore told the students that the 3rd floor corridor is out of bounds, because they could die an ugly death, Harry laughed out loud, and he was the only one who did. Of course we know he thought Dumbledore must have been joking, knowing nothing of the dangers of the wizarding world, but to Snape it could have been arrogance and disrespect. Then later too things tend to line up themselves in such a way, that they constantly misinterpret each other, but it's now shadowed with their own belief of the other. And add their stubbornness and Snape's chills up his spine every time he looks to the boy, then it's a small wonder that they can as much as tolerate each other.

When Dumbledore told the students that the 3rd floor corridor is out of bounds, because they could die an ugly death, Harry laughed out loud, and he was the only one who did. Of course we know he thought Dumbledore must have been joking, knowing nothing of the dangers of the wizarding world, but to Snape it could have been arrogance and disrespect.That's an interesting idea, if Snape heard Harry laugh. Since Harry did eventually go to the third floor corridor, Snape would have no reason to believe Harry didn't laugh out of his own arrogance.

(This reminds me of how Sirius's statement, "Voldemort teach me tricks?!" (to paraphrase), sounds without knowing the whole story.)

Chievrefueil--Your timeline for Occlumency would also cover another aspect of Snape's character that seems to have changed: part of the control/hiding of the heart is that there is nothing in his current character that could give rise to the nickname Snivellus. All that's left is the play on his name, but the play makes no sense when applied to someone who never complains, whines, or cries.

It just makes sense to me that SWM is the turning point--it's the start of everything that he is now, marking the point at which he decided not to be that twitchy little weirdo any more. I don't think that now he chooses to change because he already chose to change, a long time ago. What he is now may very well be what he thinks he wants to be...

It just makes sense to me that SWM is the turning point--it's the start of everything that he is now, marking the point at which he decided not to be that twitchy little weirdo any more. I don't think that now he chooses to change because he already chose to change, a long time ago. What he is now may very well be what he thinks he wants to be...Hmm. . .I'm not sure. It could be. It could be that, at the time it occurred, SWM was Snape's rock bottom and he decided to remake himself--leading him to Voldemort. However, he must have undergone another change because he left Voldemort. So, he decided to become less vulnerable and joined Voldemort as part of this change? At the same time he began to suppress any emotions that could hurt him to further lessen his vulnerability. At some point, he outgrew Voldemort and, by that time, had learned to suppress his emotions so well that he was on his way to becoming an excellent Occlumens?

That would be exactly what I'm thinking! Voldemort was part of the makeover (the old "my big brother can beat you up" school of thinking), only Snape realized what a mistake that was. However, he could use the Occlumency skills at that point to hide his disillusionment from Voldemort...

Are we seeing a true Snape at all, half the time he puts up a front and the rest of the time he is faking his emotions so as to please the Slytherin House students. I have been thinking and well Snape acting the way he does to Harry in the potion classes has to happen for the sake of Snape remaining in control of the death eater sons and daughters. If Snape was to show any support for Harry then he could lose control of his won house and the students may turn on there own house leader for his lack of loyalty. I think things would dive into chaos if Snape did not put this false front up because when Snape and Harry are on there own they seem to get on really well or as well as you can expect due to the circumstances.

Serpentina I like the idea of Snape checking to see if Sirius is alright because if Snape has lost his whole family then saw Harry's desire to have a family again then Snape might want that for Harry too deep down inside. Snape might not want Sirius Black to die because he is the only bit of Harry's family left.

Edit: You what does worry me, is the lack of memory pertaining to Snape's actions as a death eater. Why is Snape's Worst Memory not about the killings and horror that he must have seen as a death eater?

You what does worry me, is the lack of memory pertaining to Snape's actions as a death eater. Why is Snape's Worst Memory not about the killings and horror that he must have seen as a death eater?

There have been stored more memories into the pensieve than just the ones that Harry saw. I think there were three of them and Harry saw just the first two memories. By the way, if you jump into the pensieve, do you see the memories chronologically, or was it pure coincidence?

I like the idea of Snape checking to see if Sirius is alright because if Snape has lost his whole family then saw Harry's desire to have a family again then Snape might want that for Harry too deep down inside. Snape might not want Sirius Black to die because he is the only bit of Harry's family left.This is a bit too speculative for me. We don't know anything about Snape's family or what Snape's deepest desire might be. On the other hand, we do know that Snape restrained himself from killing Sirius in the Shrieking Shack. Somehow, I don't think he did that for Harry's sake, but for his own.

I understand that all of this takes place before Snape knows that Sirius is innocent and before it's clear what Harry and Sirius mean to each other, but it shows that Snape wanted vengeance. I don't think Snape cares enough about Harry to have that consideration trump his desire for "just rewards." I think that Snape acts because, in the big picture, certain things are just the right thing to do. It's just the right thing to do for Snape not to kill Sirius in cold blood, but turn him over to the authorities. It's just the right thing to do for Snape to check on Sirius, a fellow Order member, and make sure he is safe.
There have been stored more memories into the pensieve than just the ones that Harry saw. I think there were three of them and Harry saw just the first two memories. By the way, if you jump into the pensieve, do you see the memories chronologically, or was it pure coincidence?Harry only saw one of the (at least) 3 memories stored. That's a good question about the chronology of the Pensieve. Harry saw Dumbledore's memories in chronological order? But, wait, no he didn't. The memory of Bertha Jorkins was in the Pensieve and Harry didn't see it until Dumbledore showed it to him. If the memories were in chronological order, it would have been first (of those we know were in the Pensieve).

I wonder if what the Pensieve shows has anything to do with the state of mind of the one looking into it? I don't recall Harry's state of mind when he sees Dumbledore's memories--was there a reason for him to have seen court cases? When Harry looks into SWM, he wants to see what Snape is hiding. Perhaps SWM is the memory which was the most personal? The one Snape would hide from Harry at all costs? That could explain why it was the "worst" also. Not necessarily the worst Snape has experienced, but the most personal and worst for Harry to see. I wish I was a little quicker and could have submitted a question for JKR. It would have been great to ask whether SWM was really the worst and why. (I'm sure she wouldn't have answered the "why" without being coy. :rolleyes: )

Before Harry looks into Dumbledore's Pensieve, there's nothing specifically that he's thinking of. However, Dumbledore was thinking of something specific: he was looking for "connnections" among the disappearances--and Harry was coming to tell him about his dream of Voldemort's torturing Pettigrew, and their discussions of the person who was dead...it directly related to what Dumbledore had been doing.

Interestingly enough, the scene begins with Fudge, who obviously isn't getting what Dumbleodre has been reviewing in the Pensieve:

"Dumbledore, I'm afraid I don't see the connection, don't see it at all!....Ludo says Bertha's perfectly capable of getting herself lost. I agree we would have expected to have found her by now, but all the same, we've no evidence of foul play, Dumbledore, none at all. As for her disappearance being linked to Barty Crouch's!" (p. 579, US paper).

After Dumbledore pulls Harry from the Pensieve, he explains what he ahd been doing:

"It becomes easier to spot patterns and links, you understand, when they are in this form" (p. 597).

"A connection I could have made without assistance" (p. 598).

So, I'd venture that Harry's first viewing of a Pensieve reveals what Dumbledore has been doing--not anything that Harry wants to see; it just connects what is on Harry's mind with what was on Dumbledore's.

I think you're right, Chievrefueil: Harry sees SWM because he comes to the Penseive wanting to find out what Snape's hiding from him....In that case, that would mean that Snape really isn't hiding much else of import from him! Only the view of himself totally humiliated and helpless....

To take it a step further--it would seem logical, then, that one other memory was something we do know is being kept from Harry: why Snape left Voldemort...but Harry saw the memory that most directly related to him?

Welcome to the speculation festival.

: )

As for that memory being SWM: it makes sense that it would be the worst if that episode is the start of his decline and fall...

I also agree with your point about Snape's checking on Sirius. I think it's most likely the simple reason that Snape was checking on the Order member, period. Harry said he's been captured and was being held: it's only logical that Snape would check to see if Harry's story was true. I don't think Snape's feelings had anything to do with it--he was just doing his job.

Interestingly, later he expects Sirius to put his feelings aside and do what is necessary for the Order, when he asks Sirius to stay behind to inform Dumbledore of the situation.

As for that memory being SWM: it makes sense that it would be the worst if that episode is the start of his decline and fall...
Or it could relate to it being a situation in which Snape lost all control. At least in the DE he exerted control by turning spy. *shrug* It is difficult to speculate on given the lack of information. Not that we allow that fact to stop us.

I think you're right, Chievrefueil: Harry sees SWM because he comes to the Penseive wanting to find out what Snape's hiding from him....In that case, that would mean that Snape really isn't hiding much else of import from him! Only the view of himself totally humiliated and helpless....
Well, I think even Harry (who tends to think only bad things about Snape anyway) could hazard a fairly accurate guess on what Snape ends up doing in the DE. What I wonder about is emotions. Being overly emotional during occlumency is detrimental, right? So perhaps the reason Snape put that memory in the pensieve had to do with Harry's reaction. Snape was confident that Harry could do Occlumency. Might he have felt that seeing SWM would prevent Harry from accomplishing it?

I'm trying out this line of speculation because I feel there is more to that memory being in the pensieve than what we've discussed so far. Please, poke some holes in it so I can more accurately gauge this idea.

What I wonder about is emotions. Being overly emotional during occlumency is detrimental, right? So perhaps the reason Snape put that memory in the pensieve had to do with Harry's reaction. Snape was confident that Harry could do Occlumency. Might he have felt that seeing SWM would prevent Harry from accomplishing it?

I'm trying out this line of speculation because I feel there is more to that memory being in the pensieve than what we've discussed so far. Please, poke some holes in it so I can more accurately gauge this idea.Ok--here are a few holes. ;)

1) If Harry had become upset and emotional because of that memory, it likely would have only affected one lesson, so why bother?

2) If Snape's only concern was that seeing SWM would upset Harry to the point that the Occlumency lessons would be no good, it doesn't make sense that Snape would discontinue teaching Occlumency because Harry saw it.

3) Snape was more upset by Harry seeing the memory than Harry was; therefore, Snape wouldn't have wanted Harry to see the memory for his own sake, not for Harry's.

4) Seeing the memory would challenge Harry to put aside his emotions and I think Snape appreciates challenging his students.

How's that? :D

Harry only saw one of the (at least) 3 memories stored. That's a good question about the chronology of the Pensieve. Harry saw Dumbledore's memories in chronological order? But, wait, no he didn't. The memory of Bertha Jorkins was in the Pensieve and Harry didn't see it until Dumbledore showed it to him. If the memories were in chronological order, it would have been first (of those we know were in the Pensieve)

- and one cannot be sure that Harry had seen that memory in its complete form, either. Was it something he had already seen that made it as bad as what it was, or something that was about to happen in the next scene before Snape intervened?

- and one cannot be sure that Harry had seen that memory in its complete form, either. Was it something he had already seen that made it as bad as what it was, or something that was about to happen in the next scene before Snape intervened?That's a good point. What happened to young-Severus after adult-Snape pulled Harry out of the Pensieve may have been so bad that we wouldn't question it being his worst memory. Snape might feel the tortures perpetrated by the Death Eaters were no worse than what happened to him. He might feel that he would rather have died than endure what he did. Either could explain why this is Snape's worst memory, rather than a Death Eater memory--it happened to him.

3) Snape was more upset by Harry seeing the memory than Harry was; therefore, Snape wouldn't have wanted Harry to see the memory for his own sake, not for Harry's.This is what I see as the main reason for Snape putting the memory of SWM into the pensieve- because it is highly embarrassing and humiliating for Harry to witness. We can see how exceptionally angry Snape becomes when he finds out Harry has seen the memory, to the point where he physically pushes Harry to the ground. So I think Snape's primary reason for stowing that particular memory out of sight had to do with the fact that he wanted to keep it secret at all costs. It's certainly legitimate that Snape may not want Harry to see some of his worst memories- after all, he puts a total of three memories into the pensieve on that particular lesson. In fact, the first time he teaches Harry Occlumency, he removes three memories. The same three memories, perhaps? Here are the passages in case anyone's interested:OotP, p533, American Hardcover
"Snape pulled out his wand from an inside pocket of his robes and Harry tensed in his chair, but Snape merely raised the wand to his temple and placed its tip into the greasy roots of his hair. When he withdrew it, some silvery substance came away, stretching from temple to wand like a thick gossamer strand, which broke as he pulled the wand away from it and fell gracefully into the Pensieve, where it swirled silvery white, neither gas nor liquid. Twice more Snape raised the wand to his temple and deposited the silvetry substance into the stone basin,..."

OotP, p638
Snape was standing with his back to Harry, removing, as usual, certain of his thoughts and placing them carefully in Dumbledore's Pensieve. He dropped the last silvery strand into the stone basin and turned to face Harry.I'm guessing the fact that this passage says "removing as usual, certain of his thoughts", it means that Snape always removes the same three thoughts as he did in the first lesson.

Ok--here are a few holes.

Oops, I didn't mean that it was the only reason, merely that it played into the decision. I agree that Snape's anger was indicative of how he felt about it having been seen, although I feel that some of that anger also related to having to face that memory again (especially in front of the perpetrators son) and to the fact that Harry went snooping where he had no right to.

I should say that what I meant was I felt that none of the reasons that we have come up with would be enough, by itself, to cause Snape to put them in the pensieve. I think we are looking for a combination of reasons. What I'm searching for is a logical reason that would play into his desire to keep that from Harry. I'm hoping that it would give us more insight into what other memories are hiding in there.

I'm guessing the fact that this passage says "removing as usual, certain of his thoughts", it means that Snape always removes the same three thoughts as he did in the first lesson.I agree that Snape always removes the same 3 thoughts. Since there is no limit on the number of thoughts which can be placed into the Pensieve, if Snape ever thought of another one he didn't want Harry to see, he could just add it without replacing one of the others. I'm not sure that the "as usual" implies that they are the same thoughts, though--it's from Harry's perspective and how would Harry know?

I'm sorry, I'm being unnecessarily argumentative. I really just wanted to post something again. :rolleyes: :p

What I'm searching for is a logical reason that would play into his desire to keep that from Harry. I'm hoping that it would give us more insight into what other memories are hiding in there.You don't feel that the humiliation Snape felt in SWM is enough? :huh:

I agree that Snape always removes the same 3 thoughts. Since there is no limit on the number of thoughts which can be placed into the Pensieve, if Snape ever thought of another one he didn't want Harry to see, he could just add it without replacing one of the others. I'm not sure that the "as usual" implies that they are the same thoughts, though--it's from Harry's perspective and how would Harry know? No, you're right- it's certainly possible that since that first lesson, Snape has thought of some more thoughts he'd like to hide from Harry. I have a feeling (call it an instinct) that Snape thought to remove SWM on the first lesson and has continued to remove it ever since, seeing as it's something Snape doesn't want Harry to talk about at all costs.

i think snape developes a lot as a character, mostly through harry's eyes. he had always assumed that snape was lying when he said how horrible james was, but then we find out that he wasn't lying after all. it really changed my attitude towards him: i have a lot more respect

You don't feel that the humiliation Snape felt in SWM is enough?
No, actually, I don't. I didn't go through anything quite as bad as Snape's worst memory, but I definitely had my share. I can't think of any that I would have removed from my head because they were that much worse than the rest. Of course, they do tend to blur together. :shrug: It just feels like something is missing, to me. I'm trying to figure out what. :sigh: Perhaps it is just me, though.

No, actually, I don't. I didn't go through anything quite as bad as Snape's worst memory, but I definitely had my share. I can't think of any that I would have removed from my head because they were that much worse than the rest. Of course, they do tend to blur together. :shrug: It just feels like something is missing, to me. I'm trying to figure out what. :sigh: Perhaps it is just me, though.Yeah, I see what you mean. Why was SWM more humiliating than crying in a corner or being laughed at for not being able to mount a broom--that's what you're asking? Or is there something other than humiliation that ties the memories together for Snape? My feeling would be that, if Snape's pants were removed in SWM, the humiliation would be way beyond any other humiliating memory. Perhaps the fact that Snape put the memory in the Pensieve tells us how it must have ended? *shudder*

Yeah, I see what you mean. Why was SWM more humiliating than crying in a corner or being laughed at for not being able to mount a broom--that's what you're asking?
No. I had a boy that spit in my hair. Daily. And not just saliva...anyway, that really isn't worse to me than when the boys put gum in my waist length hair and I had to have it cut very short. Or when they grabbed a hank and pulled it out. Or...I can keep going, but I really have no desire to. Suffice it to say, it got worse. It all blurs into one...unpleasant experience. Nothing really stands out as worse, although that answer might have been different about 12 years ago.

Or is there something other than humiliation that ties the memories together for Snape? My feeling would be that, if Snape's pants were removed in SWM, the humiliation would be way beyond any other humiliating memory.
Perhaps...but...it still feels wrong to me. Maybe I'm putting too much of my own experience into trying to analyze his actions. That probably isn't the best idea.

Perhaps the fact that Snape put the memory in the Pensieve tells us how it must have ended? *shudder*
Well, there is that. I really hadn't thought about how much further it might have went after Harry was yanked out.

Yeah, I see what you mean. Why was SWM more humiliating than crying in a corner or being laughed at for not being able to mount a broom--that's what you're asking?No. I had a boy that spit in my hair. Daily. And not just saliva...anyway, that really isn't worse to me than when the boys put gum in my waist length hair and I had to have it cut very short. Or when they grabbed a hank and pulled it out. Or...I can keep going, but I really have no desire to. Suffice it to say, it got worse. It all blurs into one...unpleasant experience. Nothing really stands out as worse, although that answer might have been different about 12 years ago.That's actually what I meant. . .I think. :huh: Harry saw other memories of Snape's that were humiliating (crying in the corner and being laughed at while trying to mount a broom), but SWM is the one that went into the Pensieve. So, why SWM? That's what I was trying to express.

Lots of stuff with your hair. It reminds me of my high school German class. I sat between 2 boys who constantly tried to get each other with gummy bear spit wads. Since I was between them, I had a zillion gummy bears to get out of my hair everyday, which was painful. When I asked the teacher to move my seat, she refused and said that she needed me there as a buffer. :rolleyes: I'm not entirely sure that they weren't purposely aiming the spit wads at me, though. One of them always called me by a nasty name to make fun of my appearance. He called me by this name loudly once while I was in the commons practicing for colorguard and I threw my flag at him like a javelin. It sailed over his head and landed in front of him. . .and, he never spoke to me again. :tu: In retrospect, though, I think I'm very lucky that I have poor aim.

My comments are undoubtedly blown out of the water by so many that I looked at and didn't find it in my heart to read, but here goes.
I was a bit confused in reference to Snape in OotP. I had a pro list, and a con list. He made me happy and mad at the same time. I'm going manic depressive because of Snape.
Pro:
-Order member
-gave Harry occlumency lessons
-used to spy on Voldemort for Dumbledore
-remains loyal to Dumbledore aside from the return of Voldemort

Con:
-made it very difficult for Harry to learn occlumency by being a "git"
-holds such horrible grudges with James and Sirius that he takes it out on Harry, who has nothing to do with the fact that Snivellus was bullied in his childhood
-taunted Sirius so much that he contributed to Sirius needing to prove himself, and dying for it

So I'm kind of in a denial of "he's ok I guess" but also I don't like him at all.

That's actually what I meant. . .I think. Harry saw other memories of Snape's that were humiliating (crying in the corner and being laughed at while trying to mount a broom), but SWM is the one that went into the Pensieve. So, why SWM? That's what I was trying to express.
I wasn't thinking about the humiliation factor, exactly. Just that bullies tend to be uninventive when going about it, so they all tend to be similar, just some more extreme and some less so.

One of them always called me by a nasty name to make fun of my appearance. He called me by this name loudly once while I was in the commons practicing for colorguard and I threw my flag at him like a javelin. It sailed over his head and landed in front of him. . .and, he never spoke to me again. In retrospect, though, I think I'm very lucky that I have poor aim.
I identify with that. I threw a desk at the one who was the worst. In class, no less. I missed, by virtue of another desk in the way, which was probably a good thing. I think they messed with my hair so much because it was long. I never let it get much longer than my shoulder blades, now. Which is stupid, because I doubt anyone would do those things to me anymore, but old habits die hard. Good for you on getting him to quit, though.

No. I had a boy that spit in my hair. Daily. And not just saliva...anyway, that really isn't worse to me than when the boys put gum in my waist length hair and I had to have it cut very short. Or when they grabbed a hank and pulled it out. Or...I can keep going, but I really have no desire to. Suffice it to say, it got worse. It all blurs into one...unpleasant experience. Nothing really stands out as worse, although that answer might have been different about 12 years ago.
I identify with that. I threw a desk at the one who was the worst. In class, no less. I missed, by virtue of another desk in the way, which was probably a good thing. I think they messed with my hair so much because it was long. I never let it get much longer than my shoulder blades, now. Which is stupid, because I doubt anyone would do those things to me anymore, but old habits die hard. Good for you on getting him to quit, though.
I've always had long hair, and it just seems that some people can't resist doing things to long hair. "Sigh" ~ When I was about 13, two really mean girls put gum wads in my hair on the schoolbus one day. These two girls had taunted me for a while, and I was trying to ignore them that day, even though I could hear them giggling right behind me. I think I was sort of "going to Australia" in my mind and imagining being somewhere else, so it didn't occur to me that they were tampering with my hair, which was hanging over the back of the seat. When I got home, my mother noticed it right away, and I felt so horrible! She called the school and complained, and she called the "ring-leader's" mother, who was just like Petunia - in total denial about what her daughter was really like. That girl was the sneakiest person I ever met, and I knew her from age 12 until we were in college and she never changed, but just got more secretive. I'm sure wherever she is right now, she is whispering about someone or plotting against someone.

Lots of stuff with your hair. It reminds me of my high school German class. I sat between 2 boys who constantly tried to get each other with gummy bear spit wads. Since I was between them, I had a zillion gummy bears to get out of my hair everyday, which was painful. When I asked the teacher to move my seat, she refused and said that she needed me there as a buffer. I'm not entirely sure that they weren't purposely aiming the spit wads at me, though. One of them always called me by a nasty name to make fun of my appearance. He called me by this name loudly once while I was in the commons practicing for colorguard and I threw my flag at him like a javelin. It sailed over his head and landed in front of him. . .and, he never spoke to me again. In retrospect, though, I think I'm very lucky that I have poor aim.
:lol: That is a great story about the "javelin throw"! But I hate it that the teacher left you in the "gummy zone" even after you told her about the problem. No student should have to referee such a thing.
-taunted Sirius so much that he contributed to Sirius needing to prove himself, and dying for it
Well, that is what Harry thinks, but Dumbledore corrects him. Sirius chose to go and fight for Harry. If Sirius just went because Snape made fun of him and called him a coward, then his death sure isn't very meaningful. Sirius went to the DoM because he, himself, wanted to go to the DoM. He had a choice, and he made the choice.

He went for the same reason Harry went - the "hero thingy."

Harry will figure that out someday, I'm sure of it, because he'll realize that though he was always telling Sirius to take care of himself and be safe, and Dumbledore told Sirius the same thing, Sirius always took risks when he felt like it because that was his nature. I don't think that could possibly be Snape's fault. Besides, if people blame Snape, then you have to blame Molly Weasley for taunting him a bit, herself, and you have to blame Fred Weasley, too, because of this exchange (Chapter 22, OotP):

Sirius: "This is how it is -- this is why you're not in the Order -- you don't understand -- there are things worth dying for!"

"Easy for you to say, stuck here!" bellowed Fred. "I don't see you risking your neck!"

The little color remaining in Sirius's face drained from it. He looked for a moment as though he would quite like to hit Fred . . . "

Or, you can blame Kreacher, or Voldemort, or even Dumbledore, who after all is the one who admits he was to blame to a certain extent. Snape doesn't have the responsibility for what happened to Sirius.

My comments are undoubtedly blown out of the water by so many that I looked at and didn't find it in my heart to read, but here goes.
I was a bit confused in reference to Snape in OotP. I had a pro list, and a con list. He made me happy and mad at the same time. I'm going manic depressive because of Snape.
Pro:
-Order member
-gave Harry occlumency lessons
-used to spy on Voldemort for Dumbledore
-remains loyal to Dumbledore aside from the return of Voldemort

Con:
-made it very difficult for Harry to learn occlumency by being a "git"
-holds such horrible grudges with James and Sirius that he takes it out on Harry, who has nothing to do with the fact that Snivellus was bullied in his childhood
-taunted Sirius so much that he contributed to Sirius needing to prove himself, and dying for it

So I'm kind of in a denial of "he's ok I guess" but also I don't like him at all.

Yeah, I agree with you. It's hard to like the guy, but I'm pretty much sure that he's still on Dumbledore's side. However, I think he's definetly come from where he was in the first couple books, wanting Harry to be expelled for everything he did. And, a normal student would have gotten suspension anyway, if they were doing the things Harry did for the "wrong reasons".

But I also think that Harry and Snape's relationship has changed over the books as well, as well as the whole situation in general. At first, it wasn't a life or death matter. Now, I think that Harry would trust Snape with his life, if it ever came down to that in the end. In the beginning, it was a questions of wheather Snape liked Harry or not, and now it's more of a question of wheather Snape is loyal to Voldemort or not.

Hmm... I don't exactly think that Snape has realized it's changed though, or that Harry has grown up from his first year. He still accuses Harry of doing all these childish things as wanting to show off, etc, just like his father. Not that Harry wanted to do these things in his first year, but it would be more likely for him to. Anyway, back to my point, I don't think Snape realizes that Harry might not trust him to be loyal. He might be starting to get it, but he hasn't gotten the whole picture yet. What does everyone else think?

It all blurs into one...unpleasant experience. Nothing really stands out as worse, although that answer might have been different about 12 years ago.
:agree: Yes, it blurs into one. So if Snape were to put all his bad memories in the Pensieve - well, if I were to do it, it would have been difficult, because it's like cleaning a house: once I've washed the floor, I see how dusty the shelves are. And once I've dusted, I see how dirty the windows, the cooker, the sink, etc are. When I really start tidying, it's never ending, because as one surface becomes tidy and clean, it makes something else stick out. Removing one memory would only make a zillion others come to the surface as the next in line. :shrug:

Perhaps the fact that Snape put the memory in the Pensieve tells us how it must have ended? *shudder*

:agree: :sad: And at the point he comes into the pensieve, Snape is white with rage. I imagine that he came back to his office, saw Harry with his head in the pensieve, and panicked: how much has he seen? How far into the memory has he come? He hasn't seen that yet?

I remembered what JKR stated in an interview, 'your not born evil, you made that way.' Perhaps what we say in the Pensieve where the events that made Snape evil and turn to Voldemort in the first place as many have stated already. Snape's worst memory may have not been the events that happened during his death eater years but the events that lead to him joining Voldemort in the first place.

What we might have missed though is the fact that Dumbledore felt the need to hide his worst memories in the Pensieve with out any real need to where as Snape only removed the memories that he may have found not only for himself to cope with (though he must cope with those memories well enough to only have to place them in the Pensieve when teaching Harry Occlumency) but also difficult for Harry to comprehend. Harry does find it really hard to accept that his own father would do such a thing so perhaps Snape was protecting both there interests.

hem.. forgive me, I just wanted to bid welcome to the new posters:

:welcome: HBPhysteria and proVeritas! Hope you enjoy this thread.

clkginny, I also feel we're missing something important about SWM.. I can't define it exactly, it's just a gut feeling. All the reasons posted so far make perfect sense, but even if added together there still seem to be a missing cathalic agent: like building a bomb but missing the detonator..:sigh:
Perhaps he was trying to send a message to Harry that he should empty his mind in a similar fashion as he was doing using the Pensieve? He removed thoughts "as usual" in every lesson, so it feels like a kind of ritual. And as Romans used to say: Repetita juvant, meaning it's useful to repeat.. that's what is bugging me

Dumbledore didn't use the Pensieve to hide his memories. Actually, we've seen the Penseive used for two wholly different reasons. Dumbledore, In GoF, uses it to sort through his memories: to examine them more closely to see what he may have forgotten over overlooked---apparently, he's reviewing the trials, information about Bertha, and indications of Voldemort's return. Snape, however, uses the Pensieve to edit what's in his mind.

I always figured that SWM continued in its pattern: the scene keeps escalating; nothing indicates that it will end any other way except with James' stripping Snape. James' attitude only worsens as the scene progresses, and no one else is there to intervene...so it just seems the likely outcome...

For that reason, I do think that the scene in and of itself is humiliating enough to be SWM--a standout moment in a life that doesn't appear to have too many highlights to begin with. I think the rest of the memories we see (another group of three--JKR certainly likes her trios) are the example of rotten moments of his life that blur together. In contrast to SWM, these were not important enough to him or painful enough to have to edit them...the sad implication is that those three appear to represent normality for him, just as, for Harry, being tormented by Dudley is 'life as usual.'

Which sort of tenuously brings me around to something I thought of after reading much on the James/Sirius/school bullies thread about how Snape should "choose" to put his past behind him and have a better life and attitude, etc., etc. It occurred to me that this would be rather difficult for him--first, as we've been discussing, since he already sees himself as changed; second, though--what experience does this guy have with being happy? Does he, in fact, have even the slightest clue as to what it means to be happy? I think of Harry in the Patronus lesson, struggling to come up with a happy memory that will serve as the basis for his spell--something that can counter the memory of his mother being murdered...

However, at least Harry can find things: flying, Quidditch, getting to Hogwarts. There's not much happy in what we know of Snape's life...beating McGonagall seven years running in Quidditch? That's about it. Never mind previous discussions of what/how Snape may or may not be able to produce a Patronus...how in the world can anybody who's not experienced it suddenly "choose" to make himself a happy person??

*I never had hair that the bullies felt the need to do anything to do...My act of violence, as I've said before, was hauling off on one of them and punching him in the gut. No more grief from him, at least. Well, not too much--at least he and his buddies knew to stay back a cautious distance. Like Edith Piaf: je ne regrette rien.

I also feel we're missing something important about SWM.. I can't define it exactly, it's just a gut feeling. All the reasons posted so far make perfect sense, but even if added together there still seem to be a missing cathalic agent: like building a bomb but missing the detonator..

Exactly - I feel that there may be something we havnt seen yet that would, if we knew what it was would really cause the scene to make more sense re it being as bad as it was - or at least put it in an awfully different light. A bit like the marauder's map greeting from POA - which comes accross as hilarious by itself, until you get to OOp & see SWM

No, actually, I don't. I didn't go through anything quite as bad as Snape's worst memory, but I definitely had my share. I can't think of any that I would have removed from my head because they were that much worse than the rest. Of course, they do tend to blur together. :shrug: It just feels like something is missing, to me. I'm trying to figure out what. :sigh: Perhaps it is just me, though.

I tried to think about what my own worst memory would actually be - and I find it keeps changing from time to time - and usually about things that didnt directly happen to me. What it happens to be right at this very moment I wont say - let's say I come from a rural background & I'll leave it at that.

(on the other hand - my current best memory has remained pretty consistent which is nice :cool: )

Which sort of tenuously brings me around to something I thought of after reading much on the James/Sirius/school bullies thread about how Snape should "choose" to put his past behind him and have a better life and attitude, etc., etc. It occurred to me that this would be rather difficult for him--first, as we've been discussing, since he already sees himself as changed; second, though--what experience does this guy have with being happy? Does he, in fact, have even the slightest clue as to what it means to be happy?

:agree: - a lot depends on the person, their choices, especially the raw psycologiacal material that they were made of. As mentioned before, I responded to my peer-bullying experiences as Luna did, while a *very close relative* of mine responded to being bullied by his father by becoming more like Snape - only even more rigid-natured (Severus would be as soft & bendy as a big fluffy piece of black sparkly pipecleaner compared to this guy - trust me on that one :agree: )

Re' the way other people have [edit]tackled this whole Snape-happiness thing - I myself have only read *two* fanfics so far where the writer convincingly brought Snape closer to anything like a "happy" state - one involved a lot of trauma, the other (dont ask me to link - well written, in-character but *weird!*) - involved a huge amount of hard work: the other character literally had to meet years of the worst challenges Snape could throw at them & not be broken by it before he even let that person reach out to him. I'm not sure I could ever do that well enough in a fic. Breeding pandas would be easier.

:agree: Yes, it blurs into one. So if Snape were to put all his bad memories in the Pensieve - well, if I were to do it, it would have been difficult, because it's like cleaning a house: once I've washed the floor, I see how dusty the shelves are. And once I've dusted, I see how dirty the windows, the cooker, the sink, etc are. When I really start tidying, it's never ending, because as one surface becomes tidy and clean, it makes something else stick out. Removing one memory would only make a zillion others come to the surface as the next in line.

I recently tried to make a condensed list of my own strongest memories (both 'good' & 'bad') into a blog (with footnotes). After reading it I realised that I could add to that list 10 times over and still not have got enough of it down.

:And at the point he comes into the pensieve, Snape is white with rage. I imagine that he came back to his office, saw Harry with his head in the pensieve, and panicked: how much has he seen? How far into the memory has he come? He hasn't seen that yet?

That is my belief - that there may have been a 'punchline' scene that Harry missed, that Snape doesnt know that he missed. He wasnt exactly in the mood to question Harry on exactly what he had seen so far.

So I'm kind of in a denial of "he's ok I guess" but also I don't like him at all.

Maybe what converted me (very early on) was the fact that he what he does always seems to be for the best - or the best as Snape understands it. Bit like the idea of "by their fruits ye shall know them" - or something like that. I could compare him to a grapefruit in that way *g* - awful tasting to many but basically good for you. He's not a pleasant person by any means - which tends to mask his good points & exaggerate his shortcomings. I wouldnt relish the idea of being stuck in a lift with him in a bad mood ;) he doesnt always get it right (like most of the others), has his issues & immaturities (again, like most of the others) & he's got plenty of blind-spots in his assessment of things (ditto), but he's just such a totally bristling mass of defenses that, with his past makes him both easy to dislike & easy to suspect. And he definitely does look good in black ... /endofsnapelovesoapboxspeech.:nod:

I do think that the scene in and of itself is humiliating enough to be SWM--a standout moment in a life that doesn't appear to have too many highlights to begin with. I think the rest of the memories we see (another group of three--JKR certainly likes her trios) are the example of rotten moments of his life that blur together. In contrast to SWM, these were not important enough to him or painful enough to have to edit them...the sad implication is that those three appear to represent normality for him, just as, for Harry, being tormented by Dudley is 'life as usual.'

True, there has to be something that makes it stand out from the others. SWM reminds me very much of several actual experiences I had in high school (one posted in parody-form on another thread here), but I seem to look back on them with a sense of humour, I suppose if I caught someone peeking at them in my pensieve I would just joke about it. But I'm not Snape - and the significance of SWM may be something that Harry has either not yet seen, or already seen - but which he hasnt enough information to properly understand. We should be given more info in a fortnight from now - Roll on book 6!

& for the record (while the subtopic lasts), my own two most spectacular retaliation events seem to have been: rubbing a jacket marked with 'something-worse-than-spit' off on the person who had provided said substance. And breaking up a fight by marching in with a pair of blunt scissors. Two people who were about to murder each other with kitchen chairs just put them down & laughed at me trying to be scary with what I had. (I have since then tried to improve on my general scariness, but have been hampered a good deal in this by the fact that - unlike Snape et.al, black does *not* look good on me ;p )

thestralgrin: LOL - I'm having trouble imagining Snape as a grapefruit, but I see your point, lol. :p

This is really not in the same train of thought, but McPherson copied some posts of mine from here to the Madame Pince thread, and today I've been trying to find some more images of our dear librarian. So I thought I'd just copy my post over here for you to look at. I realize alot of this is speculation, but it's just for fun. :)

(Keep in mind, though, that we've been looking for connections to Chamber of Secrets, which might be the "key" to the series.)

Near as I can figure out, Madame Pince has only appeared in one movie - Chamber of Secrets.

According to the website Veritaserum, an actress named Sally Mortemore plays Madame Pince in CoS. So far, I haven't found her in any library scenes. When I googled her name, up came a page of celebrity autographs, and the picture she had signed is of herself and Snape sitting at the teacher's table in the Great Hall:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/VoulantLucius/HP4U/5ee96214.jpg

Sally Mortemore is a classically trained actress, and I wonder why they cast someone like that in a role where, so far, she hasn't said a word? Obviously, she has the right nose - very much like Alan Rickman's nose - but again, I'm just speculating.
Biography:http://www.sallymortemore.com/frontpage.html

This picture is from her own publicity page, and is labeled Madame Pince:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/Pince-sallymortemoremadam-pince2.jpg

:evil:

Pardon me for being slow about this post..

Start with a summary-snip from a nice post (#1223, this thread):
Subtle Science ..(rearrange).. he needs to resolve his relationship with Harry, but I think that, to do that, Snape is going to have to face the past--I can't really see how else it could happen ..(snip).. It may be that quite a bit of the background action in books one through five are all about exactly that.. Snape’s character confronting his past and evolving.. as well as Harry’s evolving, and maturing, perception of him..

It's a long post.. yeah.. sorry.. the intention is a global perspective on the character..

Book 1: Snape’s ‘if it doesn’t kill them’ attitude to teaching notwithstanding, he targets Harry.. or should I say singles him out.. this is the first bit of the past that’s coming to the fore for him.. but still, he is teaching.. and regardless of motive, actively protects Harry and the stone.

Book 2: Harry and Ron fly to school in a car and Snape ends up looking for them.. Harry explodes the firework in Goyle’s potion during class for the sake of the ‘greater good’ of the Polyjuice plan and Snape knows it was him.. plus Snape makes the connection between Harry and the missing boomslang skin stolen from his office.. serious breaking of rules (both local and global), and serious button pushing wrt with Snape’s memory of James ‘big-headed’ ‘strutting’. Harry really pushes Snape's past to the surface.. makes it hard for Snape to ‘see the forest (Harry) for the trees (James)’.

Book 3: Ahhh.. Snape’s personal and public enemy #1 escapes from Azkaban, and Harry and Hogwarts need protection. The normally controlled Snape gets more than a little edgy, as reflected in the escalation of his treatment of students in class. The past is surfacing, ready or not. And Harry, the dear boy, does he respect the contortive efforts of Prof. Snape, as well as everyone else from the MOM to Dumbledore and more, to protect him? NOT. In the end, Snape engages in shack-shrieking with virtually the whole of his grudges in one compact package – Sirius, Lupin, and James in ‘pint sized celebrity’ form (ie: Harry). “Vengence is vey sweet,” Snape breathed at Black. “How I hoped I would be the one to catch you..” (PoA, ch 19) The past has not just surfaced, it's staring him straight in the face.
“Oh, he’s not unbalanced,” said Dumbledore quietly. “He’s just suffered a severe disappointment” (PoA, ch 22) In retrospect, isn’t book 3 really more about Snape than anyone? It is about the past, and Harry’s place in it, to be sure, but Prof. Snape starts to look potentially pivotal to me in the context of the series. Rephrase: Sirius is dead, so what did #3 provide us other than history, and Prof. Snape is intimately tied up in it.(gap between books) Snape knows that the cause of his ‘severe disappointment’ is, of course, Harry. And he has all summer to let that fact ‘softly simmer’ with its ‘simmering fumes’.. I think this is some kind of low point as regards facing and coming to grips with his past. And how does he emerge ..

Book 4: “Antidotes!” said Snape, looking around at them all, his cold black eyes glittering unpleasanntly. “You should all have prepared your recipes now. I want you to brew them carefully, and then, we will be selecting someone on whom to test one..” ..(snip).. “Very well, very well,” Snape snapped. “Potter, leave your things here, I want you back down here later to test your antidote.” ..(snip).. “Very well!” said Snape. “Potter – take your bag and get out of my sight!” (GoF, ch 18)
Nothing satisfies like threating James – or was that Harry – the one culprit who’s still handy, with death. Seems fair to say Snape is projecting an internal struggle outward here.. his emotions are churning.
But then come the final chapters. The final chapters offer a complete turnabout for Snape knowledge-wise ! He finds out Harry did NOT put his name into the GoF, did NOT break into his office (in GoF) but was investigating the breakin, that Wormtail (P. Pettigrew) is alive and a DE, and by implication that the story he failed to believe the previous year was absolutely true – namely that Sirius is innocent of the death of the Potters and of Pettigrew. Snape realizes he was dead wrong about quite a lot of things.. things he had been dead sure about before.. and would have resulted in the death of an innocent enemy. Events seem to be part of his therapy.. perhaps the fact that he was willing to shake hands with Sirius reflects some realization and psychological shifts along these lines.

(gap) A lot to sort out over the summer.. assuming there’s time in between the spy duties.. but he does indeed live through the summer.

Book 5: Snape is the best we’ve seen him as he returns to simply teaching. He has style – “if you make it through potions, you can make it through life” (clkginny, earlier post) Harry continues to be singled out and pushed, but I suspect an ‘E’ Potions O.W.L. probably came out of it (more than an ‘E’ and I cry foul). He masters himself well in front of Sirius at OOP HQ. I also think he treats Harry as a Professor should in the occlumency sections. I’ll stray into dangerous waters and say Snape extended a relationship to Harry – ie: a subconscious offer of openness and trust. Then, even after Harry’s swim in SWM, Snape deciphers Harry’s coded message in front of Umbridge and immediatley contacts Sirius, then later deduces Harry may have gone to the DoM to ‘save Sirius’ and informs the OOP, while setting off into the Forbidden Forest alone to search for Harry and Hermione there. ie: Snape doesn't let his SWM emotions get in the way.

I sense that Snape has changed here. Prof. Snape is, possibly, on his way clear of the twisted knots of hatred and vengence that had plagued him. If not, then he only has Harry (and perhaps Lupin) to work with from here, since Sirius and James are now both dead.

(gap) How does he feel about Sirius’ death now? A few years previous it was something he dearly wanted. And does he have some sympathy for Harry’s loss? On the other hand, Harry certainly does still owe him an apology.

Book 6 HBP Chapter 17 ... the smoke began to clear as Harry and Snape stood back to back, their eyes glancing furtively around. “Is it over ?” Harry panted, as he tried to catch his breath. Prof. Snape’s teeth bared a bit and his eyes glittered. “This battle? Most likely, Potter.” “By the way, Professor..” said Harry, his breath a little more even now. “I’ve been wanting to apologize for some time.. er.. about that stupid dive I took in your pensieve last year.. “ “Yes.. well.." Snape muttered, not looking directly at Harry. Then, brusqely he faced Harry. "We’ll have time for that later, Potter. Let’s find your friends now.”

Whoops. Did I fabricate that last bit of wishful thinking ?

I don't know.. I think he is evolving as we read. But I do agree that it remains incomplete..


.

In retrospect, isn’t book 3 really more about Snape than anyone? It is about the past, and Harry’s place in it, to be sure, but Prof. Snape starts to look potentially pivotal to me in the context of the series. Rephrase: Sirius is dead, so what did #3 provide us other than history, and Prof. Snape is intimately tied up in it.
Uh - that book does tell us alot about history, but it also tells us about Prof. Lupin, as well as Snape. Snape is present in every book, but Lupin is only around in Books 3 and 5.
Nothing satisfies like threating James – or was that Harry – the one culprit who’s still handy, with death. Seems fair to say Snape is projecting an internal struggle outward here.. his emotions are churning.
You can look at it another way, though. Snape never likes Harry to act "privileged," and even Harry feels badly that he has to go have his picture taken for the newspapers. Also, "antidotes" sounds like a very important class, and something he'll have to know if he ever becomes an auror, but he missed it. I just don't see Snape having a "death wish" about Harry, even with James in consideration.
Book 6 HBP Chapter 17 ... the smoke began to clear as Harry and Snape stood back to back, their eyes glancing furtively around. “Is it over ?” Harry panted, as he tried to catch his breath. Prof. Snape’s teeth bared a bit and his eyes glittered. “This battle? Most likely, Potter.” “By the way, Professor..” said Harry, his breath a little more even now. “I’ve been wanting to apologize for some time.. er.. about that stupid dive I took in your pensieve last year.. “ “Yes.. well.." Snape muttered, not looking directly at Harry. Then, brusqely he faced Harry. "We’ll have time for that later, Potter. Let’s find your friends now.”

Whoops. Did I fabricate that last bit of wishful thinking ?
:) That's a good try, but I don't think it will happen quite like that. That statement, "Yes, well .. . " sounds a little indecisive for Snape. Harry will more likely apologize while he's shouting about something else during an argument, LOL. :lol:

I agree, silver ink pot--PoA also tells a tremendous amount about Lupin...I think, in fact, it's the one book wherein we see a character go through a major bit of development, and it's Lupin, not Snape.

And I can't see Snape as ever wanting Harry dead...even injured. Snape seems quite clear about preserving Harry's well being. In both CoS and PoA, he's at his most verbally lacerating toward Harry when Harry has endangered himself. Even in OotP, the purpose of the verbal dressing down, about the "Fools who wear their hearts," is all about Harry's lack of preparation and warning him that he will not survive the Dark Lord with that attitude.

Here's a really random bit that I'm going to toss in...Snape's use of Harry's name. I could only find two occasions of Snape's using Harry's first name; by far and away, he addresses or speaks of Harry as "Potter." Of course, a good part of this is simply Mr. Formality's normal mode. However...

A bit of trivia I found was that, on one of the occasions that Snape actually uses Harry's first name...it is also the time that he clearly connects Harry with James.

"Everyone from the Minister of Magic downward has been trying to keep famous Harry Potter safe from Sirius Black. But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself. Let the ordinary people worry about his safety! Famous Harry Potter goes where he wants to, with no thought for the consequences."
Harry stayed silent. Snape was trying to provoke him into telling the truth. He wasn't going to do it. Snape had no proof--yet.
"How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter," Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting. "He too was exceedingly arrogant. A small amount of talent on the Quidditch field made him think he was a cut above the rest of us too. Strutting around the place with his friends and admirers...The resemblance between you is uncanny" (p. 284, PoA, US paper).

I rather like the contrast between "famous Harry Potter" and the "ordinary people"--ie, Snape--who are trying to protect him. And the comparison between Harry and James seems to lie in their fame for nothing in particular, and the resultant ego. And I'm interested in the glinting of the eyes after the narrative point that Harry is determined to maintain the lie he's told--the phrasing's very entertaining--provoked into being truthful! And it's that that seems to trigger Snape into making the comparison between Harry and James.

I'm not entirely sure if there's anything here more than trivia (although I'd take some convincing of that, since it's the first time Snape addresses the issue of James with Harry)...or what the significance may be. But I had to chuck it in there. once I'd noticed it.....

Interesting! I think Snape's eyes glint because he is amused that Harry thinks he can fool him. Harry is rather audacious sometimes, so is there any wonder that Snape equates him with James?

That scene also echoes loudly throughout SWM, too. Lily's appraisal of James seems to be nearly identical to Snape's years later. We do see James showing off with the snitch, too. But the first time I read that, like Harry, I thought Snape was being a total jerk. I never guessed he was telling his own version of the truth, lol. :p

It's also entirely possible that since Snape was trying to provoke Harry into telling the truth, and the "famous Harry Potter" bit wasn't doing anything, that Snape tries for the lower blow of hitting back towards James.
Also, a throwback to Snape never having mentioned Lily: I think the only thing Snape diskliked about Lily was that she was Muggleborn. Snape hated James for obvious reasons.

Random thought: Does Snape hate Sirius more than James? I mean, it's made out in the books that James and Snape are arch-enemies, but it seems to me that Snape hates Sirius even more (in PoA, I think Snape only wants to turn Sirius over to the dementors rather than killing him right then is because the demntor's kiss is supposed to be worse than death, makes sense in a one-upmanship way, since Sirius tried to kill Snape). Actually, my lengthy parentheses makes a good point: Sirius tried to kill Snape. As far as we know, James only humiliated him. It seems to me that Snape shows a great deal of maturity and restraint while dealing with Sirius in OotP.

Now this post is rambling, but one last thing: I've been a member over 200 days, yet I'm only a first year. I think I should post in more than one thread. :rolleyes:

Pardon the intrusion, this is just a follow up on the writing on the walls in Snape's office. I have been staring at the posted images and looking at web sites and books -all without any bit of inspiration. But I just noticed one thing. In Silver Ink Pot's post of three images,http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=2485175&postcount=1131the bottom one shows the writing on the arch continuing on the horizontal off the bottom right. This means the words may be a continuous quote extending around the room along a level band and over the arches. This may lead to something (by using some key words to search alchemical texts for the whole thing) but so far no luck. Same for the image on McGonagall's blackboard. I've looked on web pages and printed pages but nothing so far.

Thanks for the repies and the critique !

In retrospect, isn’t book 3 really more about Snape than anyone? It is about the past, and Harry’s place in it, to be sure, but Prof. Snape starts to look potentially pivotal to me in the context of the series. Rephrase: Sirius is dead, so what did #3 provide us other than history, and Prof. Snape is intimately tied up in it.Uh - that book does tell us alot about history, but it also tells us about Prof. Lupin, as well as Snape. Snape is present in every book, but Lupin is only around in Books 3 and 5.The point I’m making here is tenuous.. and I think I failed to convey it clearly.

Of course you are right about book 3 being about Lupin as well, a very likeable character, sympatico. We get both history and current affairs. And we also learn quite a lot about Sirius Black, James Potter and Peter Pettigrew as well. In short, the Marauders. And Severus Snape.

Severus Snape has been purposfully built up step by step, book by book. There are so many mysteries surrounding him, so many questions we are all keen to have answered, there is excess dynamic inter-character tension surrounding him, and so much intra-character tension within him. In short this is stuff that begs – almost literally – to be resolved. These potentials are huge.. at least I feel this to be true. Plus, after reading through versions 1, 2 and (part of) 3 of this thread it’s clear he’s a good guy. But not many readers out there have read these analyses (I’m glad I did), so Professor Snape is just waiting to be sprung.

Hence the idea is that in the remainder of the whole series his potentials for creating action are enormous. He has the potential to be a pivotal character. I think this looks very likely. If this proves to be true, then in the context of the whole series book 3 will have been ‘more about Snape than anyone’. That’s all.

I just don’t see that kind of potential in the remaining Marauders. Pettigrew has been foreshadowed by Dumbledore to play an important role wrt Harry, but everyone knows he’s not a good guy, so the element of surprise is missing. Sirius and James are dead. And Remus Lupin is a steady good guy, but little or no built up potential of the kind surrounding Prof. Snape. Plus Lupin seems so straightforward, other than being a warewolf he’s not one to hide things.

---- ---- ----

Anyway.. Prof. Snape’s character development is the more interesting topic.. so…You can look at it another way, though. Snape never likes Harry to act "privileged," and even Harry feels badly that he has to go have his picture taken for the newspapers. Also, "antidotes" sounds like a very important class, and something he'll have to know if he ever becomes an auror, but he missed it. I just don't see Snape having a "death wish" about Harry, even with James in consideration.And I can't see Snape as ever wanting Harry dead...even injured. Snape seems quite clear about preserving Harry's well being.First, let me say that I agree 100% about Snape not wanting Harry dead. I wasn’t trying to go there.

Next, I like the way you phrase it - Snape never likes Harry to act "privileged," – I agree, easy to support. I argue that in GoF the emotional aftermath of PoA is showing through. He blames Harry – Harry stopped Snape from taking Sirius in the Shrieking Shack, he helped Sirius escape the dementor’s kiss via buckbeak, he deprived Snape of his vengence, and only Prof. Snape seems to know the truth about Harry.

Snape threatens Harry quite a bit in SS, CoS and PoA. But now in GoF we get “Potter, leave your things here, I want you back down here later to test your antidote.” Harry drinks the poison, he could die, period. True, when Snape first mentions this test in ch. 15 he formally alerts the entire class (although Harry believes he is the likely subject). Then in ch 18 it becomes clear that Harry IS the intended subject. This is the fist time he threatens Harry with death (I’m discounting the Dueling Club snake incident, CoS). I don’t believe Snape would actually kill him, but at this moment he is keen to level the threat at Harry. You believe it’s still just part of Snape’s standard ‘method’?

In the same scene, a few paragraphs earlier “Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, ‘I see no difference.’ Hermione let out a whimper; her eyes filled with tears, she turned on her heel and ran..” I have read posts that suggest this is just a Snape joke, but I think he’s being harsher than usual.

What can I say, I think his behavior shows a markedly higher level intimidation, or harshness, in contrast to his teaching style in any other book. I don’t think it’s reaching too far to say that Snape is cracking a bit wrt emotional control. Just for the record I’m looking for some true perspective here, so please show me how I’m wrong.

Silver Ink Pot, I’m not sure what you’re implying when you say “.. and even Harry feels badly that he has to go have his picture taken for the newspapers.” If you mean Harry doesn’t want more publicity, then I can only agree. Alternatively, if you mean Harry wants to have his antidote tested on himself, then why when Snape firsts suggests testing antidotes again (ch 18) do we get “Harry imagined picking up his cauldron, and sprinting to the front of the class, and bringing it down on Snape’s greasy head –“ ?

----- ---- ----

As regards the underlying idea, do you agree on the whole that Prof. Snape’s character is progressively confronting his past and going through developmental motions book by book?

Maybe this is biting off too much to chew.. sorry aboot thaat..

----- ---- ----

That's a good try, but I don't think it will happen quite like that. That statement, "Yes, well .. . " sounds a little indecisive for Snape. Harry will more likely apologize while he's shouting about something else during an argument,”Yes, well.. “ ... emotion can lead to a bit of hesitation, no ? In any case all I’m out to do is appreciate what JKR has done so far in preparation for HBP.. otherwise I don’t want to know what’s coming until she tells me.

Thank’s again for chatting on my idea..




/\

Temporarily silliness :p :evil:

thestralgrin: LOL - I'm having trouble imagining Snape as a grapefruit, but I see your point, lol. :p

..a grapefruit with attitude!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/VoulantLucius/HP4U/5ee96214.jpg :evil:


Oh dear, now I'm rummaging over more fanfic possibilities: the grumpy old ship s.s. Snince! :rotfl: :evil: - ok, I'll try to be more sensible now :angel:

/Temporary silliness

Glinting eyes
Interesting! I think Snape's eyes glint because he is amused that Harry thinks he can fool him. Harry is rather audacious sometimes, so is there any wonder that Snape equates him with James?
"Harry stayed silent. Snape was trying to provoke him into telling the truth. He wasn't going to do it. Snape had no proof--yet.
"How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter," Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting. "He too was exceedingly arrogant.
It's definitely a possibility that he's amused, but when I read it, I don't read "glinting" as something positive here. To me, it looks like Snape is seeing something beyond what's in the room. That's how I interpret it at other times when his eyes glint or glitter too, the time when he's asked to go and take up his work as a spy comes to mind (althogh that could be tears too). He sees a vision in front of him. This time, the memory of James.

By the way, is there a difference between glint and glitter? These are the two words JKR uses to describe his eyes. Is there a reason for when she chooses glint and when she chooses glitter? Dumbledore's eyes sometimes glitter too, but do they ever glint?

the bottom one shows the writing on the arch continuing on the horizontal off the bottom right. This means the words may be a continuous quote extending around the room along a level band and over the arches.

I think the idea that it's a continuous quote sounds very likely. :agree: It could be from a book that's not been published on the Internet yet.

Originally Posted by subtle science
Here's a really random bit that I'm going to toss in...Snape's use of Harry's name. I could only find two occasions of Snape's using Harry's first name; by far and away, he addresses or speaks of Harry as "Potter." Of course, a good part of this is simply Mr. Formality's normal mode. However...

A bit of trivia I found was that, on one of the occasions that Snape actually uses Harry's first name...it is also the time that he clearly connects Harry with James.

Odd. I would have thought that calling Harry "Potter" would have reinforced the James connection, but of course it wouldn't be that simple. Where did you find the other example?

Originally Posted by silver ink pot
That scene also echoes loudly throughout SWM, too. Lily's appraisal of James seems to be nearly identical to Snape's years later. We do see James showing off with the snitch, too. But the first time I read that, like Harry, I thought Snape was being a total jerk. I never guessed he was telling his own version of the truth, lol.

I only worked it out with a bit of help from Aunt Marge. :lol:

"As I expected!" said Aunt Marge, taking a huge swig of brandy and wiping her chin on her sleeve. "A no-account, good-for-nothing, lazy
scrounger who-"
"He was not," said Harry suddenly. The table went very quiet. Harry was
shaking all over. He had never felt so angry in his life.

At first I thought it rather pointless to have this extremely heated discussion of James between two people who never knew him. Marge is clearly prejudiced and just wants her poor opinion confirmed, and Harry is lashing out at her without really knowing any better than she does. However, when Harry had the same reaction to Snape's take on James, I thought: Wait a minute, here's someone who really did know him. I didn't take it to be the whole truth about James, but I did believe Snape had reasons for viewing him that way.

Originally Posted by 23DuelsADay
Random thought: Does Snape hate Sirius more than James?

I really wish I had something to back this up with, beyond a gut feeling, but in SWM it seems to me as if Snape hates James more than Sirius, but Sirius hates Snape more than James does. James's dislike of Snape seems more detached, somehow, perhaps because most of his attention is focused elsewhere in that scene.

Originally Posted by 23DuelsADay
Now this post is rambling, but one last thing: I've been a member over 200 days, yet I'm only a first year. I think I should post in more than one thread.

Try it. There are other interesting threads out there. It doesn't really work for me, unfortunately; whenever I find somewhere else to post, I neglect the threads I already post in.

Originally Posted by Norbertha
It's definitely a possibility that he's amused, but when I read it, I don't read "glinting" as something positive here. To me, it looks like Snape is seeing something beyond what's in the room. That's how I interpret it at other times when his eyes glint or glitter too, the time when he's asked to go and take up his work as a spy comes to mind (althogh that could be tears too). He sees a vision in front of him. This time, the memory of James.

I like that idea, I think that could very well be the case. :tu:

I always took the glinting in that scene as almost predatory--that Snape knew Harry was up to something...a little touch of Legilmency, in retrospect, as he picked up that Harry was A. lying and B. determined not to tell the truth (and Snape always handles lying and liars so well...NOT).

There actually is a difference between glint and glitter (and, by the way, the etomology of both words traces back to Old Norse, Swedish, and the dictionary-generic Scandinavian...I just wanted to bring that up for a couple people here on this thread!!!). Glint is quick flash of reflective light; glitter is a more continuous sparkling of light. As far as connotations, I would say that glint is edgier; glitter can have a more positive sense, generally.

One reason I brought up my random thought was that I had been trying out a bit of a theory that, by using "Potter," Snape was crossing the father and son--by denying Harry is first name, Snape was denying him his own identity. I figured this was a shaky theory, anyway, as Snape calls everybody by their last names--and I doubt he's that confused by so many people's identities!! But--finding the back-to-back use of Harry's first name and the first references to exactly what Snape thought of James really blew the thoery out of the water. In fact, it sort of started me wondering if this guy is perfectly well aware of the difference between his past (James) and present (Harry), but, in his typical perversity, is deliberately looking for traits that blur the line between father and son.

The first time Snape uses Harry's first name is the first day of Potions class, in the first line he ever speaks to Harry (this sentence wins first place for the sheer number of times the word first has been used). And, oh, gee--look: he's on about Harry's fame: "Ah, yes," he said softly. "Harry Potter. Our new--celebrity" (p. 136, US paper).

I haven't found any other time that Snape uses Harry's first name; so far, the entire rest of the series consists of "Potter," I think. My next query is: does Snape actually use James' name? So far on that one, I'm just finding "your father." Which, again, perversely underscores the difference between Harry and James--even as Snape says they're alike, he's distinguishing father from son...

According to what other characters say in the books, Snape hated James more than Sirius. I've often said that I find this mind-boggling, considering the animosity between Snape and Sirius--however, in SWM, Snape utterly disregards Sirius, despite the fact that SIrius is an equal half of the tormenting. Everything Snape does and says is directed at James (with the lone address to Lily to get rid of her). And it does seem that Sirius' hatred is personal--in fact, his insults are all about Snape's appearance...quite personal. And--later on in their history, this idea is reinforced by Sirius' trying to kill Snape, whereas James intervenes to save him. Backstory, please: this tangled plot line really needs some straightening out in less than two weeks.


barmy codger--A continuous quotation seems the most likely premise. Good stuff over on the alchemy thread, by the way, about regulus.

I'm trying out this line of speculation because I feel there is more to that memory being in the pensieve than what we've discussed so far.How about ... SWM really is Snape's Worst Memory because ... Snape unleashed a deadly curse, a Dark curse, which nearly resulted in the death of a student, but fortunately for him it missed.But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood. (OotP, ch 28)My own worst memories are those where my actions could have resulted in the serious injury or death of another human being. These are the actions I most regret in my life. These are the things at which I'm most appalled, of which I'm most ashamed. And, most importantly in this context, these are the events I don't want known.

In contrast, if I recall my most embarrassing momements and imagine them suddenly put on public display, then I might be embarassed yet again, yes, but I might just as easily laugh myself. I don't think I'd really care.

Achhh... I don't know, it seems like a good fit offhand.

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I can't resist taking this one step more. Namely the way I've reacted or responded internally and externally in response to such events in my life, or that I can imagine.

One possible effect is to employ a strong willfull self-control: as in "boy, I am absolutely --- never --- going to allow that to happen again. It could go overboard into self-repression or self-loathing.

Another possible effect is to adopt an unhurried deliberateness in my actions. Eg: I try to make a point never to hurry when I drive, never to go faster than what I can see, and to curtly pay attention to the task at hand --- no way I ever want to hit a kid on an urban or small town street. Pace of an elephant.

I see both of the listed effects in the dear Potions Master.

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Please try this on, if it fits then feel free to call it your own.

... By the way, clkginny, I've very much enjoyed and appreciated reading your previous posts on this thread (incl. earlier versions)... thank you!



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Also, a throwback to Snape never having mentioned Lily: I think the only thing Snape diskliked about Lily was that she was Muggleborn. I still just won't accept that Snape dislikes muggleborns and halfbloods until we have more evidence of Snape holding supremacist views. I don't see how one comment made under duress as a 15-year-old proves that Snape is a supremacist. Also, I was convinced long ago by The Black Adder that Snape must be a halfblood.
Random thought: Does Snape hate Sirius more than James? I mean, it's made out in the books that James and Snape are arch-enemies, but it seems to me that Snape hates Sirius even more (in PoA, I think Snape only wants to turn Sirius over to the dementors rather than killing him right then is because the demntor's kiss is supposed to be worse than death, makes sense in a one-upmanship way, since Sirius tried to kill Snape). Actually, my lengthy parentheses makes a good point: Sirius tried to kill Snape. As far as we know, James only humiliated him. It seems to me that Snape shows a great deal of maturity and restraint while dealing with Sirius in OotP.As others said, I think SWM proves that Snape hated James more than Sirius--all his attention and animosity in that scene is for James, despite Sirius participating. It's true that Snape believes Sirius tried to kill him, but he also believes James was part of it. He tells Harry that James got cold feet about it. Snape doesn't believe that James saved him for his sake, but for the sake of himself and the other Marauders. (I hope that sentence makes sense--there were too many pronouns.) So Snape would believe that James wanted him dead and James then saved him for selfish reasons. Add to that, Dumbledore thinks James's reason for saving Snape was noble (which it may have been) and James was likely rewarded for it. How did James get to be Head Boy after not having been prefect? I've always thought it was a reward for putting himself at risk to save Snape.

I don't believe that the reason Snape doesn't kill Sirius himself, but wants to hand him over to the dementors, is so that Sirius will suffer a fate worse than death. Snape shows in the Shrieking Shack that he wants to kill Sirius. He says, "Give me a reason. . ." This implies feels he doesn't have reason enough to kill, despite their past. Snape isn't willing to kill Sirius in cold blood, but he would kill in defending himself or the children. I believe that Snape is a character interested in doing the right thing (in the grand scheme) and that he would turn Sirius over to the authorities whether or not the dementor's kiss was a possibility.
Plus, after reading through versions 1, 2 and (part of) 3 of this thread it’s clear he’s a good guy.:wow: I'm impressed that you read all that!
I don’t believe Snape would actually kill him, but at this moment he is keen to level the threat at Harry. You believe it’s still just part of Snape’s standard ‘method’?It's not that different from Snape threatening to test Neville's Shrinking Solution on Trevor. (And, of course, Snape carries out this threat.) I forgot which book that's in, though.
In the same scene, a few paragraphs earlier “Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, ‘I see no difference.’ Hermione let out a whimper; her eyes filled with tears, she turned on her heel and ran..” I have read posts that suggest this is just a Snape joke, but I think he’s being harsher than usual.I don't know what to think of that, other than it being completely inexcusable. Snape may have meant it as a joke, but, if so, it's in appallingly poor taste. Why he would purposely try to hurt Hermione, though, I have no idea; although, Hermione irritates him. That's the one thing Snape has ever done to make me think less of him.
As regards the underlying idea, do you agree on the whole that Prof. Snape’s character is progressively confronting his past and going through developmental motions book by book?I'm not sure. We've had a similar question raised before: Is Snape's character developing throughout the series because he's changing or because Harry is learning more about his past? I tend to think that Snape is the same person throughout the first 4 books: spiteful, vengeful, petty, honorable, and heroic. (Did I leave anything out? ;) ) I left out OotP because I wonder what effect seeing Harry's victimization has had on Snape. It was left unclear. Even so, though, it might not be that Snape would change his character so much as change his opinion of Harry. I'm very curious to find out how Snape is toward Harry in HBP.
..a grapefruit with attitude!I can totally see Snape as a grapefruit with attitude! :rotfl:
"Harry stayed silent. Snape was trying to provoke him into telling the truth. He wasn't going to do it. Snape had no proof--yet.
"How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter," Snape said suddenly, his eyes glinting. "He too was exceedingly arrogant.It's definitely a possibility that he's amused, but when I read it, I don't read "glinting" as something positive here. To me, it looks like Snape is seeing something beyond what's in the room. That's how I interpret it at other times when his eyes glint or glitter too, the time when he's asked to go and take up his work as a spy comes to mind (althogh that could be tears too). He sees a vision in front of him. This time, the memory of James. I agree with you, Norbertha. I read glinting there as a flash of some emotion other than amusement--anger? Anger at James? Anger at Harry for being so like James (he thinks)?
the bottom one shows the writing on the arch continuing on the horizontal off the bottom right. This means the words may be a continuous quote extending around the room along a level band and over the arches. I think the idea that it's a continuous quote sounds very likely. It could be from a book that's not been published on the Internet yet.I was thinking along the same lines. It's possibly something that the set designer found somewhere and decided to use. Perhaps someone could find out the name of the set designer from the DVD, find the set designer's e-mail address, and ask? (I'm not that crazy, though. :lol: )
whenever I find somewhere else to post, I neglect the threads I already post in.I notice that, too. I can only keep up with one thread at a time anymore.
There actually is a difference between glint and glitter (and, by the way, the etomology of both words traces back to Old Norse, Swedish, and the dictionary-generic Scandinavian...I just wanted to bring that up for a couple people here on this thread!!!). Glint is quick flash of reflective light; glitter is a more continuous sparkling of light. As far as connotations, I would say that glint is edgier; glitter can have a more positive sense, generally. When I looked up glint and glitter, it seemed as if they were synonyms--both implied strong emotion when applied to the eyes. I'm not sure that glint is really edgy. Isn't there a saying about a child being a glint in their father's eye? (ex. "Your father and I knew each other before you were even a glint in his eye.") That's actually the most common use of glint (when applied to the eyes) that I've ever heard.
In fact, it sort of started me wondering if this guy is perfectly well aware of the difference between his past (James) and present (Harry), but, in his typical perversity, is deliberately looking for traits that blur the line between father and son.You think Snape wants Harry to be like James? So that he can take out the full force of his hatred for James on Harry?
According to what other characters say in the books, Snape hated James more than Sirius. I've often said that I find this mind-boggling, considering the animosity between Snape and Sirius--however, in SWM, Snape utterly disregards Sirius, despite the fact that SIrius is an equal half of the tormenting. Everything Snape does and says is directed at James (with the lone address to Lily to get rid of her). This made me think of how Snape responds to Sirius in the Shrieking Shack--it would be hard to imagine him hating someone more, yet he hates James more. Presumably, faced with James, Snape would show even more hatred. However, Snape shows much less hatred toward Harry--this implies to me that Snape doesn't really believe that Harry and James are the same.

The way I've heard the phrase is 'a gleam in your father's eye'--just to add another sparkly, glimmery, shimmery, flashy word to the mix... : ) !!!!

glint--to give off reflection in brilliant flashes; gleam; to appear briefly or faintly; tiny bright flash of light; a trace of emotion expressed through the eyes
glitter--shine by reflection with many small flashes of brilliant light; sparkle; to shine with strong emotion; sparkling brilliance of something


Atmavan--It doesn't seem to me that Snape misses at all when he gashes James' face: he aims straight at him, hits him, and wounds him. I really don't think, even at that moment, that Snape would've been foolish enough to attempt Avada Kedavara in front of all those witnesses--and what he does use does not seem deadly at all. It's intended to wound and it does.

Chievrefueil--I agree about the Mudblood comment. Snape has never used the word again in five books; the use once--not only under duress, but for reasons that make logical sense (however unpalatable the word)--isn't proof. The insult Snape delivers to Hemione about her teeth is really nasty--but nothing else connects it to her being a Muggleborn. He makes the comment in front of a horde of DE children, having come upon the fight between Draco and Harry. While I don't think he likes Hermione (I don't think he likes any of the students, actually), the dislike appears to have more to do with her know-it-all attitude; her "helping" other students (*cough*cheating*cough*); and her friendship with Harry. Much stronger evidence is needed to prove he has any attitude about Muggleborns in particular--by the way, another insult he neglects to use against Harry, if he really, truly cared about blood purity: Harry's half blood--why doesn't Snape ever hit him with that one, if it matters to him?

I also agree with your points about Snape's attitude about killing Sirius...I'm of two minds about Snape's being able to kill. Either he has in the past, and so will never again and certainly without his consistent use of warnings; or he hasn't and cannot, and so hence the warnings that allow the opponent a chance to back down. Either premise points to a Snape who will not kill in the present time...And, no matter which way it goes--he has or he never will--I think the issue connects to the other memories he put into the Pensieve.

And last but not least...He threatens Trevor in PoA (right before Lupin's boggart class, actually--which kind of supports my theory that Neville reacts to whatever is most recent, not necessarily what is most severe: ie, if he'd just gotten a Howler from Gran, then Gran would've been his #1 fear; if McGonagall had snapped at him over his Transfiguration ineptitude, then McGonagall would've been #1...rambling way off main point of actual sentence...). An interesting little bit that accompanies his 'attempted poisoing' of Trevor: he's got the restorative potion in his pocket, which he uses on Trevor to restore him to adulthood again...What's it doing in his pocket, if he expected Trevor to be dead? It's not that restorative! I think this episode was Snape's nasty way of ensuring that Neville had inspiration to get something right (although it was Hermione, of course, who actually got it right, not Neville--rendering the whole nasty effort useless).

Interesting! I think Snape's eyes glint because he is amused that Harry thinks he can fool him. Harry is rather audacious sometimes, so is there any wonder that Snape equates him with James?Yes we also see Snape's glint eyes when he makes fun of Harry in the potion classes suggesting he is not being serious and is amused at how easy it is to whined Harry up. When Snape means business there is cold look in his eyes and he rarely couples this with the curling upper lip (another sign of amusement in Snape's character). Snape's facial expression is completely different when faced with an adult causing trouble; it is fare more serious in expression and more menacing. The only time Snape's serious face creeps in around children, is if the child has put themselves in danger or harmed someone else, for example Ron harming Mr. Weasley's reputation by taking the car). Harry saw the car incident as something Snape wanted to use to expel both of them with maliciously but really Snape was correct to act as stern as he did because it was a very serious offense. I mention the car incident during CoS because it actually shows a sign of loyalty from Snape to the Weasley family, especially when you consider how Molly acted towards Snape during CoS.

The way I've heard the phrase is 'a gleam in your father's eye'--just to add another sparkly, glimmery, shimmery, flashy word to the mix... : ) !!!!It could be a regional difference. I'm sure I've always heard it as "glint."

All three words seem to mean the same thing, so perhaps somewhere they say, "glitter in your father's eye." :)
I'm of two minds about Snape's being able to kill. Either he has in the past, and so will never again and certainly without his consistent use of warnings; or he hasn't and cannot, and so hence the warnings that allow the opponent a chance to back down. Either premise points to a Snape who will not kill in the present time...I think Snape would kill if he had to do so. I think he might have killed Sirius, if Sirius had lunged toward him or Harry. You think not? Do you think he wanted to kill Sirius in the Shrieking Shack? I thought that's what he wanted, but he controlled himself. Whereas, I think Harry was unable to bring himself to kill.
And last but not least...He threatens Trevor in PoA (right before Lupin's boggart class, actually--which kind of supports my theory that Neville reacts to whatever is most recent, not necessarily what is most severe: ie, if he'd just gotten a Howler from Gran, then Gran would've been his #1 fear; if McGonagall had snapped at him over his Transfiguration ineptitude, then McGonagall would've been #1...rambling way off main point of actual sentence...). Thanks. That's an interesting point I've never thought about before! Neville's response to Lupin's question about his grandmother does imply that Neville is nearly as afraid of her as he is Snape. ("I don't want the boggart to turn into her, either," to paraphrase.)
An interesting little bit that accompanies his 'attempted poisoing' of Trevor: he's got the restorative potion in his pocket, which he uses on Trevor to restore him to adulthood again...What's it doing in his pocket, if he expected Trevor to be dead? It's not that restorative! I think this episode was Snape's nasty way of ensuring that Neville had inspiration to get something right (although it was Hermione, of course, who actually got it right, not Neville--rendering the whole nasty effort useless).Yes, that's interesting, isn't it? Yet, I don't think he expected Neville to be able to fix the potion. Perhaps he fully expected Hermione to help Neville fix it? Perhaps he was even aware of Hermione helping Neville all along? (But he didn't want to appear as if he would tolerate it, so he deducted points when the potion worked?)

I'm impressed that you read all that!.Thank you.. but I have to say your posts have been part of the reason it proved worthwhile.. definitely. Once I started I pretty much forgot about the other threads I had been interested in, including a total stop in posting for lack of time !

… We've had a similar question raised before: Is Snape's character developing throughout the series because he's changing or because Harry is learning more about his past? I tend to think that Snape is the same person throughout the first 4 books: spiteful, vengeful, petty, honorable, and heroic. (Did I leave anything out? ;) ) I left out OotP because I wonder what effect seeing Harry's victimization has had on Snape. It was left unclear. Even so, though, it might not be that Snape would change his character so much as change his opinion of Harry. I'm very curious to find out how Snape is toward Harry in HBP.Thank’s for that information.. prior discussion of Snapes character development on this thread.. I’m about to set off looking for it next.. I’m very keen to soak up the ideas.

The bottom line for the idea of Prof. Snape actually evolving through OotP is, I suppose, “does his behavior show a change distinct and different enough to convice us of a change in his underlying character?” Given the muted elusiveness of his character though, I might be satisfied with ‘reasonably suspect’ rather than ‘convice’. We have only his speech and behavior with other characters to go by.

So I’d like to ask you a question Chievrefueil, if I might. What would it take in his speech or behavior with particular characters – esp: Harry, Lupin – to give reasonable confidence that a change had occurred ? (Actually, for the record, I’d be pleased to hear anyone’s ideas on this question) I think I need to get this clear before I proceed.. so please forgive me if I don’t respond to specifics immediately (eg: poisoning trevor, Hermione’s tooth problem)

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It doesn't seem to me that Snape misses at all when he gashes James' face: he aims straight at him, hits him, and wounds him. I really don't think, even at that moment, that Snape would've been foolish enough to attempt Avada Kedavara in front of all those witnesses--and what he does use does not seem deadly at all. It's intended to wound and it does.

Subtle Science, please forgive me for saying that I often store off chuncks of posts for future reference.. and most of the time they end up being yours ! Such great posts.. Thank you for taking the time to share your insights !

Regarding ‘he aims straight at him, hits him, and wounds him’, you may be right, of course. Personally, I was (and am) a fan of the ‘Snape so regrets his utter powerlessness in SWM that it is the beginnig of his trek to become a Death Eater’ theory (which, by the way, is probably at least partly yours!), but what clkginny said about not quite feeling content with the ideas to date sunk in. Anyhow, I’m going to go ahead and wear this for a while and see what I can make of it.

So did he hit what he aimed at ? What if he was really aiming at the spot right between James two (brown?) eyes ? The curse used drew blood, but perhaps this was a ‘graze’, as opposed to a ‘staight on’ hit, a hit that could have killed him. It need not have been AK. Onlookers? To be sure.. but I know if I was severely pushed to defend myself in a crowd I wouldn’t stop to worry about anyone other than the threat at hand.. there’s no time to hesitate or deliberate.. Show non-lethal restraint? It all depends on how deep the feeling goes of what’s necessary at the time. I think this is, at the least, plausable.
I agree about the Mudblood comment. Snape has never used the word again in five books ..(snip).. Harry's half blood--why doesn't Snape ever hit him with that one, if it matters to him?I like your Harry insult example ! I’m responding to this bit to see what you make of the Slytherin dormitory password Harry and Ron overhear while Polyjuice’d in CoS --- ‘pure-blood’ (Draco Malfoy - CoS, ch 12). No I don’t think Prof. Snape is a ‘supremecist’, but .. wouldn’t the head of Slytherin House be the one to set the password? This event happens on or around Christmas (!), so we are about halfway through the school year.. it’s possible that the Head Boy takes over the responsibility at some point, but my guess is that even then Snape would have to approve it. What do you make of it ?

Completely differnent topic – I’ve noticed you are a fan of Emerson (sig). Would you happen to know the source of this line: “…within man is the soul of the whole; the wise silence; the universal beauty, to which every part and particle is equally related; the eternal ONE.” ? I read a number of his essays some time ago, but don’t recall ever reading that bit. Feel free to pass on this if you haven’t the time.


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How about ... SWM really is Snape's Worst Memory because ... Snape unleashed a deadly curse, a Dark curse, which nearly resulted in the death of a student, but fortunately for him it missed.
I don't think it was a deadly curse. You do make an interesting point that it could be something of Snape's actions, though. Perhaps calling Lily a mudblood bothered Snape a lot more than I had considered. Hmmm....

... By the way, clkginny, I've very much enjoyed and appreciated reading your previous posts on this thread (incl. earlier versions)... thank you!
I appreciate that, but many other posters on this thread are much more articulate and have better deductive reasoning than me. Thank-you, though. :blush:

This implies feels he doesn't have reason enough to kill, despite their past. Snape isn't willing to kill Sirius in cold blood, but he would kill in defending himself or the children.
I think you're right. I think that if the students were directly threatened, Snape would do what he had to do to protect them. I think that killing someone would be a last resort, though.

Why he would purposely try to hurt Hermione, though, I have no idea; although, Hermione irritates him. That's the one thing Snape has ever done to make me think less of him.
This has always bothered me because it seems out of character for Snape. I mean, it was too mean. I expect him to be curt and sarcastic, but that was a little over the top. I've wondered if it was because that was right before the class on antidotes and he didn't want Hermione in there? But that explanation seems weak to me. I just can't figure it out, but it was definitely the worst thing we've seen Snape do, aside from call Lily a mudblood.

This made me think of how Snape responds to Sirius in the Shrieking Shack--it would be hard to imagine him hating someone more, yet he hates James more.
However, in SWM when we see Snape hating James more than Sirius happened before the WW incident. All other interaction between Snape and Sirius was afterwards. Snape might have hated Sirius a good deal more than he hated James after that.

An interesting little bit that accompanies his 'attempted poisoing' of Trevor: he's got the restorative potion in his pocket, which he uses on Trevor to restore him to adulthood again...What's it doing in his pocket, if he expected Trevor to be dead? It's not that restorative! I think this episode was Snape's nasty way of ensuring that Neville had inspiration to get something right (although it was Hermione, of course, who actually got it right, not Neville--rendering the whole nasty effort useless).
Interesting, I'd never thought of the implications in the fact that he had the restorative potion in his pocket. Might he have also had something that could reverse the affects of a misbrewed potion, as well? Either way, it does make that scene read differently.

I knew I'd forgotten something.

What it happens to be right at this very moment I wont say - let's say I come from a rural background & I'll leave it at that.
Yes, I live firmly in the middle of nowhere...

I don't dwell on bad memories (that become such a fog, anyway), I figured out at some point that it would only cause me to go insane (oops, am I too late?). I try to concentrate on the good ones.

Atmavan--I don't recognize the quotation, and my Emerson is comfortably ensconced on the bookshelf behind my desk at school...However, it sounds as if it ought to be from his essay "Nature," with the references to universal beauty and oneness--sounds like the discussion of the OverSoul in that essay. But that's just a guess.

I should clarify what I typed before--I should have said Snape will not kill, rather than cannot (an apropos distinction to be making after an Emerson comment) (sorry--English major nerd parenthetical remark...). Obviously, he's capable of it, but he seems to be trying very hard in the Shack to avoid actually doing it...and, ultimately, he does decide not to. And I think it's significant that he makes that decision all on his own--nobody else is conscious at the time to make a persuasive argument against killing Sirius! Having what he deems motive, and having opportunity, Snape elects not to apply vigilante justice. Added to his "give me a reason" and he seems to be someone who is finding more reasons not to do harm than to commit the act.

As for Snape's changing/developing character...I don't really think he is. I think the major change(s) in his character occured before the books--the major one being whatever turned him from Voldemort and toward Dumbledore. Now he is on that redemptive path. I don't think he himself is changing: rather, it's that more information is slowly being revealed, which requires an adjustment in how he is viewed, as more of his character/personality/history is brought out. Even Harry's point of view hasn't really changed--actually, that's one of the most aggravating aspects of the books: Harry, so far, really hasn't processed much of what he's learned about Snape. I mean, he still hasn't figured out that it was Voldemort who made his scar hurt at the Opening Feast in PS/SS! : )

I'm glad others also think that Snape's carrying the counterpotion to the shrinking solution in his pocket is a bit odd. That's one of those little details that has always made me go, "Huh?" Just peculiar that he'd be wandering around the classroom with that right on his person--it's not like he's teaching in the Transfiguration classroom and has to cart his potions with him--he could even have just left it in the cupboard or on a shelf...Instead, he's got it virtually in hand....Interesting.

Oh...and...uh...Welcome, Atmavan...It suddenly occurs to me that I haven't actually gotten around to saying that. Further proof (after can versus will not) that I have a very bad case of the slow's today....So--Welcome...belatedly!

When I looked up glint and glitter, it seemed as if they were synonyms--both implied strong emotion when applied to the eyes. I'm not sure that glint is really edgy. Isn't there a saying about a child being a glint in their father's eye? (ex. "Your father and I knew each other before you were even a glint in his eye.") That's actually the most common use of glint (when applied to the eyes) that I've ever heard.

I always heard a twinkle in your fathers/mothers eyes. I personally think glint is more sinster ie'a glint of a knife.' whereas as glitter is more light hearted ie' all that glitters is gold,'
But carrying on I do have to agree with the person who said we aren't actually seeing Snape's character changing we are just seeing Harry's attituse changing to him ( Sorry can't find the quote.) I am still unsure as Snape as a character although there are alot of time in the book when is vicious like with Hermione and her teeth, there are still a few time when he acts for good.
He is just a giant enigma who I love

I always took the glinting in that scene as almost predatory--that Snape knew Harry was up to something...a little touch of Legilmency, in retrospect, as he picked up that Harry was A. lying and B. determined not to tell the truth (and Snape always handles lying and liars so well...NOT).

There actually is a difference between glint and glitter (and, by the way, the etomology of both words traces back to Old Norse, Swedish, and the dictionary-generic Scandinavian...I just wanted to bring that up for a couple people here on this thread!!!). Glint is quick flash of reflective light; glitter is a more continuous sparkling of light. As far as connotations, I would say that glint is edgier; glitter can have a more positive sense, generally.
It could be a regional difference. I'm sure I've always heard it as "glint."

All three words seem to mean the same thing, so perhaps somewhere they say, "glitter in your father's eye."

I've always heard "gleam in your father's eye," and I've always seen that as a sign of, um, male energy, lol. :rotfl:

LOL - I am such a nerd! As soon as I read Norbertha's post, I started looking eagerly down the page to see if anyone had looked up "glint," "gleam," and "glitter." :rotfl: Thus, I found the "gleam/glitter" debate.:)

I remembered from my recent reading in CoS that Tom Riddle's eyes "glinted" at one point. When I looked it up, it almost alarming, since this goes along with what Subtle has been saying about Snape's use of Harry's name and his "famous" status. It is (unfortunately) when Riddle is making fun of Ginny and her use of the diary:

CoS, Chapter 17, pg. 308 American

" . . . telling me all her pitiful worries and woes -- how her brothers tease her, how she had to come to school with secondhand robes and books, how" -- Riddle's eyes glinted -- "how she didn't think famous, good, great Harry Potter would ever like her. . . ."

All the time he spoke, Riddle's eyes never left Harry's face. There was an almost hungry look in them.

Then later, as Tom Riddle gets more and more freaky in that scene, we have this:

(Page 313)
"I have many questions for you, Harry Potter." (The name again!)
"Like what?" Harry spat, fists still clenched.
"Well," said Riddle, smiling pleasantly, "how is it that you -- a skinny boy with no extraordinary magical talent -- managed to defeat the greatest wizard of all time? How did you escape with nothing but a scar, while Lord Voldemort's powers were destroyed?"
There was an odd red gleam in his hungry eyes now.

It would seem that "gleam" might have a meaning for JKR that is more negative than "glint," which might imply amusement at someone's expense. Neither one seems really too positive, though it probably depends on the situation. Harry often sees Dumbledore's eyes as "twinkling," which is a whole other kettle of amusement, lol.:lol:

I haven't found any other time that Snape uses Harry's first name; so far, the entire rest of the series consists of "Potter," I think. My next query is: does Snape actually use James' name? So far on that one, I'm just finding "your father." Which, again, perversely underscores the difference between Harry and James--even as Snape says they're alike, he's distinguishing father from son...
Sometimes I think this might have a magical or superstitious reason. :huh: Snape won't say the "Dark Lord's" name either, and sometimes I wonder if there is a magical reason for not saying the "names of the enemy"? I've tried to find something Celtic that might explain this, but so far, I can only find things about the Australian Aborigines and African tribes who wouldn't speak the names of the dead for fear of being haunted.
Backstory, please: this tangled plot line really needs some straightening out in less than two weeks
Yes, please! :)
Snape shows in the Shrieking Shack that he wants to kill Sirius. He says, "Give me a reason. . ." This implies feels he doesn't have reason enough to kill, despite their past. Snape isn't willing to kill Sirius in cold blood, but he would kill in defending himself or the children. I believe that Snape is a character interested in doing the right thing (in the grand scheme) and that he would turn Sirius over to the authorities whether or not the dementor's kiss was a possibility.
:tu: I agree - great post! I do think Snape was trying to do the right thing.
An interesting little bit that accompanies his 'attempted poisoing' of Trevor: he's got the restorative potion in his pocket, which he uses on Trevor to restore him to adulthood again...What's it doing in his pocket, if he expected Trevor to be dead? It's not that restorative! I think this episode was Snape's nasty way of ensuring that Neville had inspiration to get something right (although it was Hermione, of course, who actually got it right, not Neville--rendering the whole nasty effort useless).
It's almost as if he is testing Hermione as much as Neville, LOL. :evil:
Yes we also see Snape's glint eyes when he makes fun of Harry in the potion classes suggesting he is not being serious and is amused at how easy it is to whined Harry up. When Snape means business there is cold look in his eyes and he rarely couples this with the curling upper lip (another sign of amusement in Snape's character). Snape's facial expression is completely different when faced with an adult causing trouble; it is fare more serious in expression and more menacing. The only time Snape's serious face creeps in around children, is if the child has put themselves in danger or harmed someone else, for example Ron harming Mr. Weasley's reputation by taking the car). Harry saw the car incident as something Snape wanted to use to expel both of them with maliciously but really Snape was correct to act as stern as he did because it was a very serious offense. I mention the car incident during CoS because it actually shows a sign of loyalty from Snape to the Weasley family, especially when you consider how Molly acted towards Snape during CoS.
:tu: Great Post! I agree that when Snape is really angry, especially with Sirius Black, he gets a much "hotter" look on his face. He is used to dealing with impertinent children, because kids are often predictable in their behavior and their lack of lying skills, lol. :p

I also like your point about Snape and the Weasleys! But I'm not sure what you meant by the last sentence - Molly and Snape have no interaction in CoS, do they? Or do you mean Molly in OotP? Or Ron in CoS?

Pardon the intrusion, this is just a follow up on the writing on the walls in Snape's office. I have been staring at the posted images and looking at web sites and books -all without any bit of inspiration. But I just noticed one thing. In Silver Ink Pot's post of three images,http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.p...&postcount=1131the bottom one shows the writing on the arch continuing on the horizontal off the bottom right. This means the words may be a continuous quote extending around the room along a level band and over the arches. This may lead to something (by using some key words to search alchemical texts for the whole thing) but so far no luck. Same for the image on McGonagall's blackboard. I've looked on web pages and printed pages but nothing so far.
No intrusion, I assure you! :) I got the feeling from looking at those pictures that they might be a continuous piece of writing also, but those darn shadows block out so much that it is hard to tell. I will take another look at those - to tell you the truth they were giving me a migraine by the time I stared at them for two days.

Here is something I just found, however. It is from the CoS movie, and is the page from "Most Potente Potions" that has the Polyjuice Potion written on it. I remember zooming in on this while watching the DVD, but it was too blurry. Then yesterday I happened to see it on Veritaserum.

What's interesting about it is that we have a list of ingredients in the CoS book that are all plants, but this "page" from the movie also lists a few Alchemical ingredients: Antimony, Sal Ammoniac, Saltpeter, Mercury, Mars. I'm not sure if it means anything, but coupled with the pictures of Snape's Lab, I believe JKR has told the set designers to think about Alchemy. Come to think of it, JKR must have written that herself, since there is no real magical potion called "Polyjuice."

:evil: Edited to add: I just realized that that page is from Chapter 6 (VI) and the picture of the "Spider Woman" is Figure 7 (VII). I wonder if that means anything. Also, that weird creature to the left is a Chimera, I think. It's like a conglomeration of every mythical creature.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/Snapepotions-mostpotentepotions.jpg

Gleam, glint, glitter: Subtle said thet "glint" and "glitter" are Norse roots, so Ithought I'd just throw in that glitter means the exact same thing in Norwegian as it does in English, it spelled the same way too. :) Glint is called "glimt", it means the same thing, I think. There's an expression about glints and eyes, which is to "ha glimt i øyet" - have a glint in your eyes, which means to have a sense of humour, or good mood, as a character trait. (Snape definitely has no glint in his eye! :p)

Snape won't say the "Dark Lord's" name either, and sometimes I wonder if there is a magical reason for not saying the "names of the enemy"?

Hm... Would be cool if you found something. :) I think it's just the "fear of a name increases the fear of the thing itself" line of thinking. People's fear of speaking Voldemort's name does give him a lot of extra power, it makes him seem much more dangerous. It is as if people sort of believe that merely saying his name could summon him there, or be dangerous in some way. (Kind of like when actors don't say MacBeth. :lol:)

" . . . telling me all her pitiful worries and woes -- how her brothers tease her, how she had to come to school with secondhand robes and books, how" -- Riddle's eyes glinted -- "how she didn't think famous, good, great Harry Potter would ever like her. . . ."

Yeah, spooky how much he sounds like Snape here! :scared:

About Snape apparently hating James more than Sirius: I get the feeling that he might hate James more than Sirius because James seems to plan more, while Sirius is more spontaneous (er, how do you spell that?).

Nerd alert: Atmavan--Your Emerson quotation is from "Oversoul," not "Nature." If you go to:

http://www.emersoncentral.com/oversoul.htm

The essay is there, and the quotation is part of the third paragraph. I rather like the idea of a website called "emersoncentral." Especially when my books are out of reach!

Great catch, silver ink pot, on the Polyjuice page. I'd say there's enough information to say for sure that none of the alchemy stuff in the film is just the figment of a creative set designer--there's just way too much of it.

Trivia: the Polyjuice Potion is supposed to NOT be used for animal transformation, yet the pictures in the book show animal/human combinations.


The name thing...Names have power--as, for instance, seen in "Rumplestilskin"; there's a whole tradition of the idea of the 'true name' of people, things, whatever; knowing the true name gives one power over that person or thing. Therefore, the true name is kept hidden. It's interesting how widespread the idea is: most Native American tribes have the same idea, that you must keep your 'real name' known only to yourself and select others; Jorge Luis Borges wrote a short story (I think it's "Las Ruinas Circulares," but I'm not sure) about the hundred names of God being written on the pelts of jaguars--if one could 'read' the jaguar and say the names aloud, the world would come to an end. (Important safety tip: Do not read any jaguars you happen to come across, please--or, at least, please wait until after 7/16!) Tolkien, too, uses this idea in The Lord of the Rings: for instance, both Gandalf and Aragorn set records for the sheer number of alternate names they can provide for themselves. Of course, one of the ultimate examples is the Bible: Adam gets dominion over the animals by naming them...

The gist is that names have power and should be used with care. Snape seems to be one of those characters who really abides by the old rules of name usage and the cautious, deliberate use of names....

ETA: You'd think the DEs would like tossing the name around to show off the fear and power...But they're highly resistant to saying it--and it doesn't seem to be out of fear of revealing themselves to be DEs. I suppose it could reflect their fear of Voldemort's power...but I have a sneaking suspicion that the Dark Mark reacts to the name...Non-DEs react to just the name itself, because of the fear of Voldemort...I think the DEs have other reasons for not appreciating hearing the name brought up....

I always heard a twinkle in your fathers/mothers eyes. I personally think glint is more sinster ie'a glint of a knife.' whereas as glitter is more light hearted ie' all that glitters is gold,'
:tu: I agree, and have also always heard 'twinkle' (although, as previously stated, this could be a regional issue).

'Glint' to me, conjures images of steel - the glint/flash of a blade. 'Gleam' seems to be to be a softer light, like a slow pulse, with 'glitter' I see many tiny lights flashing. 'Glitter' and 'twinkle' seem very much closer in relation to each other than 'glint' to either. I think this meshes well with the definitions that subtle provided, which I'll just show again
glint--to give off reflection in brilliant flashes; gleam; to appear briefly or faintly; tiny bright flash of light; a trace of emotion expressed through the eyes
glitter--shine by reflection with many small flashes of brilliant light; sparkle; to shine with strong emotion; sparkling brilliance of something

LOL - I am such a nerd! As soon as I read Norbertha's post, I started looking eagerly down the page to see if anyone had looked up "glint," "gleam," and "glitter." Thus, I found the "gleam/glitter" debate. :tu: Fellow nerd here - I find the semantics of individuals words fascinating.
I do think JKR is using 'glint' as a more agressive word, as someone mentioned, even 'predatory'. I will have to go back now and look up all the references to 'glint', 'gleam' and 'glitter'. Weee fun!
:p

I'm slow today, too, so now I'll say:

Welcome Atmavan and BlackBelladona!

http://bestsmileys.com/welcome/8.gif

Gleam, glint, glitter: Subtle said thet "glint" and "glitter" are Norse roots, so I thought I'd just throw in that glitter means the exact same thing in Norwegian as it does in English, it spelled the same way too. :) Glint is called "glimt", it means the same thing, I think. There's an expression about glints and eyes, which is to "ha glimt i øyet" - have a glint in your eyes, which means to have a sense of humour, or good mood, as a character trait. (Snape definitely has no glint in his eye! :p)
Thank you for more background on those words, which JKR uses alot! I see "glint" as being a sign of amusement. Maybe the truth is that Snape is in a good mood when he is badgering Harry. :evil:

Hm... Would be cool if you found something. :) I think it's just the "fear of a name increases the fear of the thing itself" line of thinking. People's fear of speaking Voldemort's name does give him a lot of extra power, it makes him seem much more dangerous. It is as if people sort of believe that merely saying his name could summon him there, or be dangerous in some way. (Kind of like when actors don't say MacBeth. :lol:)
That's what I was getting at. I should have made it more clear in my post that I was talking about Snape not using James' name in particular, since I believe they were enemies, though not on the same scale as Voldemort. LOL - Snape and James were "enemies on the same side," just like Snape and Sirius.

Yeah, spooky how much he sounds like Snape here! :scared:
That whole scene with Tom Riddle is creepy. Shudder - I hate reading it, especially the way he talks about Ginny. What a psychopath! Glint or not, I never get that same feeling when Snape talks to Harry. :tu:
About Snape apparently hating James more than Sirius: I get the feeling that he might hate James more than Sirius because James seems to plan more, while Sirius is more spontaneous (er, how do you spell that?).
You spelled it right!

What I mean is that James seems more calculatng than Sirius, and calculated cruelty somehow feels worse than spontaneous cruelty, doesn't it?

Cool stuff about the fear of a name. It makes me think of old fishing lore. The fishermen used to (or perhaps still do) believe that if you use the correct name for a fish (not sure if it's all fish, or just some. At least it's true for halibut) it means that you won't catch any of that fish that day.

2 : to give off reflection in brilliant flashes; also : GLEAM
3 : to look quickly or briefly : GLANCE
Alright I had to look up glint myself and I feel that these two definations are most relavant.
When I think of of a glint in someone's eye I imagine a quick,sudden look of anger or maliciousness (did I just make up a word?)
When I look up gleam it give me a link back to glint which is interesting because they are basically saying they are both the same,in relation to eyes.
Now I also thought glitter would be more of a friendly look but according to the dictionary
to shine with strong emotion : FLASH <eyes glittering in anger>
Interesting I dunno. i am just in shcok at how much time I wasted looking up all these definitions but meh it's summer and it's a worth while cause.

Gosh ~ I had to go to page two of History of Magic to find this thread! Lots of new threads tonight. :huh:

Well, I'm learning something. JKR is using glint as a verb, usually, and as such, it can also be a synonym for "glance." I guess the use of "glint" might mean that Snape "glances" at Harry when he says certain things, and so the light in his eyes "glints." Something like that. Same thing with Tom Riddle - sort of a quick glance.

Glance and glint have the same root word. :huh:

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/g/g0141200.html

Pronunciation Key)glance1 Listen: [ glns ]
v. glanced, glanc·ing, glanc·es

a. To direct the gaze briefly: glance at the menu; glanced in the rearview mirror. b. To move rapidly from one thing to another. Used of the eyes.

To shine briefly; glint. See Synonyms at flash.

[Middle English glauncen, alteration (influenced by glenten, to shine), of glacen from Old French glacer, to slide ; see glacis.]

Here is the best list I've found with all these words and their distinctions:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=flash

synonyms
FLASH, GLEAM, GLINT, SPARKLE, GLITTER, GLISTEN, GLIMMER, SHIMMER mean to send forth light.
FLASH implies a sudden and transient outburst of bright light <lightning flashed>.
GLEAM suggests a steady light seen through an obscuring medium or against a dark background <lights gleamed in the valley>.
GLINT implies a cold glancing light <glinting steel>.
SPARKLE suggests innumerable moving points of bright light < sparkling waters of the gulf>.
GLITTER connotes a brilliant sparkling or gleaming <glittering diamonds>. GLISTEN applies to the soft sparkle from a wet or oily surface <glistening rain-drenched sidewalks>.
GLIMMER suggests a faint or wavering gleam <a distant glimmering light>. SHIMMER implies a soft tremulous gleaming or a blurred reflection <a shimmering satin dress>.

Here is a page with comparisons of "glint" in different languages. In Italian, for instance, it is close to "scintillate," while in French and Portuguese, the meaning is more like "reflect" or "clear." The Spanish is "resplendor," which is like "resplendant" in English.
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2083&dekey=G0683300&gwp=8&curtab=2083_1

These are really pretty words, and I have trouble thinking of them in negative terms. Maybe the point is that they all mean "shine," but it depends on the situation. There is one scene when Molly Weasley's eyes "glitter strangely," and I've always thought it was because she was about to cry. Hagrid's eyes are "beetle black," but that isn't seen negatively because he's a friendly guy. So again, we have the Harry filter in the way he reads body language.

Wow! I don't check the thread for 2 days and come back to 4 pages of posts!

Trivia: the Polyjuice Potion is supposed to NOT be used for animal transformation, yet the pictures in the book show animal/human combinations. Maybe those were warnings? Be sure to use only for human transformation or you could end up like this?

The gist is that names have power and should be used with care. Snape seems to be one of those characters who really abides by the old rules of name usage and the cautious, deliberate use of names.... There is also the old folklore that by using the name you can call something up. Especially, the original beginnings of the saying 'speak of the devil' - and the idea that to summon a demon you had to call it by name, so you don't use the name for fear he might hear you and come.

You'd think the DEs would like tossing the name around to show off the fear and power...But they're highly resistant to saying it--and it doesn't seem to be out of fear of revealing themselves to be DEs. I suppose it could reflect their fear of Voldemort's power...but I have a sneaking suspicion that the Dark Mark reacts to the name...Non-DEs react to just the name itself, because of the fear of Voldemort...I think the DEs have other reasons for not appreciating hearing the name brought up.... I think you're right about it relating to their 'dark mark' but I also wonder about the idea of the 'true name' - perhaps VM doesn't allow them to use 'Voldemort', contrary to Riddle in the diary, who had recently fashioned the name and had some of his associates calling him by it at the time. The 'true name' idea is really interesting since they wouldn't be using his real name even if they DID say Voldemort - it's not his TRUE name - so far only DD is calling him Tom, which does give some power in that it negates VMs self-image (Tom being a very common name, not at all special) - there's a part of me that really wants DD to call him 'Tommy' - that would really be negating his power!

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For my opinion on who Snape hates more (James or Sirius) I agree that it may have changed after the werewolf 'prank' but at 15 in SWM I think I'd hate James more, too. Sirius is making fun of Snape's physical features, a typical bullying action, whereas James is questioning Snape's right to even exist. I've said before that I think there are several possible reasons why this might be Snape's Worst Memory, but one of those is the liklihood that Snape saw this as more than humilation, but as verification that the crowd thought he didn't have a right to have even been born.

Especially, if his father (who seemed to probably be at least verbally abusive) had ever told him the same. Compound this with the werewolf prank and Snape being forbidden to talk about the 'time Sirius tried to kill me' and I think that SWM stands for the hurt of knowing not only that people don't want you around, but they question your right to live. I think the 'vanishing cabinet' prank on Montague (who had just shown up again right before Snape found Harry in his penseive) just reiterates this idea.

Maybe those were warnings? Be sure to use only for human transformation or you could end up like this?
I took them to be "warnings" too. But that "Spider Woman" reminds me of Bella Lestrange.:)
I think you're right about it relating to their 'dark mark' but I also wonder about the idea of the 'true name' - perhaps VM doesn't allow them to use 'Voldemort', contrary to Riddle in the diary, who had recently fashioned the name and had some of his associates calling him by it at the time. The 'true name' idea is really interesting since they wouldn't be using his real name even if they DID say Voldemort - it's not his TRUE name - so far only DD is calling him Tom, which does give some power in that it negates VMs self-image (Tom being a very common name, not at all special) - there's a part of me that really wants DD to call him 'Tommy' - that would really be negating his power!
Or better yet, Harry should turn the tables and use some of the dirty DE tricks - talk to Voldemort in baby talk and call him "Ickle baby Tommy Riddle" - (sort of like Tommy Pickles from Rug Rats, lol).:lol:
Especially, if his father (who seemed to probably be at least verbally abusive) had ever told him the same. Compound this with the werewolf prank and Snape being forbidden to talk about the 'time Sirius tried to kill me' and I think that SWM stands for the hurt of knowing not only that people don't want you around, but they question your right to live. I think the 'vanishing cabinet' prank on Montague (who had just shown up again right before Snape found Harry in his penseive) just reiterates this idea.
Fantastic point! And that reinforces all the comparisons between James and Sirius and the Weasley Twins, who often don't understand the effects of their actions on others, such as during the experiments on First Year students and, of course, poor Montague stuck in the latrine pipe.

There is also the possibilty - so far no proof - that Snape's 'gang of Slytherins' might have graduated the year before. This is VERY suppositional based on the only 2 Slytherins we have relative ages for. We know Lucius was a 6th or 7th year when Snape was a first year (based on the Daily Prophet article in Harry's 5th year in which Lucius is 41 and JKRs interview when she states Snape's age as 35 or 36 after Harry's 4th year). From Sirius' remark about Snape as Malfoy's lapdog (the kitchen arguement) amongst other insults that were ALL about Snape as a student, we can imply that Malfoy let Snape hang around him for at least part of the time that their student careers overlapped. We also have Bellatrix's relative age.

In Bk4 Sirius says he hasn't seen her since he was Harry's age (14) - if this is an accurate statement, that means she graduated that year. Of course, we don't know about the others in the 'gang', but they aren't apparent in SWM. They may be there watching or might not be. I think they're not there in mass or there would be enough of them to take on James and Sirius. And not only do they not, but James and Sirius don't seem to expect ANYone to step forward. I feel pretty sure that Snape is without 'protection' here, whereas he might have been protected in previous years.

It's also interesting that this would put Snape in a similar position to Peter - of hanging with those who could protect him.

As I said, we don't have enough yet to know, but it could be why this is so important and why it might have led to VM

I think they're not there in mass or there would be enough of them to take on James and Sirius. And not only do they not, but James and Sirius don't seem to expect ANYone to step forward. I feel pretty sure that Snape is without 'protection' here, whereas he might have been protected in previous years.
A very logical conclusion!

But that makes things pretty sad for Snape in that scene. It means that he didn't have a friend in his own House in his own year. :sad: Harry would never watch Neville being bullied like that and not do anything. We have proof of that in Book One with Malfoy and the remembrall. I just realized how ironic that is. Harry saves Neville's remembrall from a bully, and then later sees Snape being bullied in a memory. Hmmmm - that's interesting. And Snape has about as much talent at magic apparently as Neville, too. Edit: I didn't mean that Neville doesn't have any talent. What I mean is, Snape and Neville both seem to have problems at the age of 15, only Neville has friends who will stick up for him, and Snape doesn't.

Thank you.. but I have to say your posts have been part of the reason it proved worthwhile.. definitely. Once I started I pretty much forgot about the other threads I had been interested in, including a total stop in posting for lack of time !Thank you very much! :blush:
So I’d like to ask you a question Chievrefueil, if I might. What would it take in his speech or behavior with particular characters – esp: Harry, Lupin – to give reasonable confidence that a change had occurred ?Well, the character who we've discussed before who definitely seems to have undergone a change within the series is Lupin. While a student, Lupin was concerned with losing friends. He was afraid that his friends would desert him when they found out he was a werewolf. They didn't, but he was still concerned enough about losing his friends that he didn't stand up to them and do the right thing. He didn't intervene in SWM. He says himself that he never did much to make James & Sirius stop hexing Snape (or other students). He was much the same in PoA. He was so afraid of disappointing Dumbledore, of losing Dumbledore, that he failed to tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagus. He also didn't tell Dumbledore about the Marauder's Map or that Sirius would know of tunnels leading to/from Hogwarts. However, in OotP, Lupin is different. He seems to be in charge and restrains Sirius. He no longer seems to worry about his friendship with Sirius more than doing what should be done.

As for Snape, I think he would need to demonstrate that he is opening up to others--I see Snape's closed demeanor as the most glaring thing he could learn to change. He would need to give something of himself to Harry or Lupin. Snape changing his opinion of Harry or Lupin alone isn't enough because his opinion could change due to new information without him really changing. Also, I don't see that something like suddenly being nice to all his students would be a realistic change at all. Snape isn't a nice or pleasant person and I think that's an integral part of who he is.
I’m responding to this bit to see what you make of the Slytherin dormitory password Harry and Ron overhear while Polyjuice’d in CoS --- ‘pure-blood’ (Draco Malfoy - CoS, ch 12). No I don’t think Prof. Snape is a ‘supremecist’, but .. wouldn’t the head of Slytherin House be the one to set the password? This event happens on or around Christmas (!), so we are about halfway through the school year.. it’s possible that the Head Boy takes over the responsibility at some point, but my guess is that even then Snape would have to approve it. What do you make of it ?I thought the "guards" chose the passwords? In PoA, the Sir Cadogan painting came up with so many silly passwords, Neville made him tell him all the passwords for the week. Surely McGonagall wasn't involved in approving so many silly passwords. . .
This has always bothered me because it seems out of character for Snape. I mean, it was too mean.Well, Snape is mean. . .but it's always seemed to be over a line that even Snape wouldn't cross, yet he does.
However, in SWM when we see Snape hating James more than Sirius happened before the WW incident. All other interaction between Snape and Sirius was afterwards. Snape might have hated Sirius a good deal more than he hated James after that.That's true. Although, everyone still talks about the animosity between James & Snape, not Sirius & Snape.
Just peculiar that he'd be wandering around the classroom with that right on his person--it's not like he's teaching in the Transfiguration classroom and has to cart his potions with him--he could even have just left it in the cupboard or on a shelf...Instead, he's got it virtually in hand....Interesting.A possible alternate explanation is that he was carrying it in case of emergency--a spilled potion perhaps?
Great catch, silver ink pot, on the Polyjuice page. I'd say there's enough information to say for sure that none of the alchemy stuff in the film is just the figment of a creative set designer--there's just way too much of it.I wasn't meaning to imply that the alchemical stuff was soley the fabrication of the set designer; however, the set designer could have been told that alchemy should be a theme and gotten a book on alchemy, then decided to decorate the set with a particular passage.
It's interesting how widespread the idea is: most Native American tribes have the same idea, that you must keep your 'real name' known only to yourself and select othersWhen reading your post, I thought about this forum. We certainly don't use our real names and share them only with a select few. It must be human nature. :lol:
GLINT implies a cold glancing light <glinting steel>. This is probably why "glint" is thought of as more harsh; however, I think they're all similar when applied to the eyes, implying strong emotion.
The 'true name' idea is really interesting since they wouldn't be using his real name even if they DID say Voldemort - it's not his TRUE name - so far only DD is calling him Tom, which does give some power in that it negates VMs self-image (Tom being a very common name, not at all special)Yes, this is similar to what Mcpherson posted earlier in the thread about (I forgot what it's called now) some type of verbal violence/domination (symbolic violence?). Someone who remembers what it's called, help me out?
It's also interesting that this would put Snape in a similar position to Peter - of hanging with those who could protect him.Yes, but unlike Peter, Snape has other priorities than his own wellbeing.

It's interesting how widespread the idea is: most Native American tribes have the same idea, that you must keep your 'real name' known only to yourself and select others
When reading your post, I thought about this forum. We certainly don't use our real names and share them only with a select few. It must be human nature.
:lol: In fact, in order to give myself magical protection, I've decided to anagram my name to "Slipover Knit."

Bahahahahaha!

OK, first with the eye-shine verbs: I got these definitions from dictionary.com

GLINT

1. A momentary flash of light; a sparkle.
2. A faint or fleeting indication; a trace.

v. glint·ed, glint·ing, glints
v. intr.
To gleam or flash briefly. See Synonyms at flash.

v. tr.
To cause to gleam or flash.
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GLIMMER

1. A dim or intermittent flicker or flash of light.
2. A faint manifestation or indication; a trace: a glimmer of understanding.

intr.v. glim·mered, glim·mer·ing, glim·mers
1. To emit a dim or intermittent light. See Synonyms at flash.
2. To appear faintly or indistinctly: Hope still glimmered in our minds.
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GLEAM

1. A brief beam or flash of light: saw gleams of daylight through the cracks.
2. A steady but subdued shining; a glow: the gleam of burnished gold.
3. A brief or dim indication; a trace: a gleam of intelligence.

v. gleamed, gleam·ing, gleams
v. intr.
1. To emit a gleam; flash or glow: “It shone with gold and gleamed with ivory” (Edith Hamilton). See Synonyms at flash.
2. To be manifested or indicated briefly or faintly.

v. tr.
To cause to emit a flash of light.

They're all basically the same (they've got very similar synonyms), but the degrees vary. I personally think when Snape's, or anyone's, eyes glint it's a bit more threatening.

Now onto the not saying Voldy's name: It remind me a bit of the old "Bloody Mary" game, where if you say her name three times she'll appear and poke your eyes out, kill you, something like that.

Still moving on to the Snape's character developing: I think that Harry is starting to see Snape abit differently, but I also think Snape is changing. In PS/SS and CoS, he's cynical and mean.
In PoA, he starts really changing it up: his past is coming back to haunt him, and when he confronts it, he has to really restrain himself (note: I think his "Give me a reason" line is sort of a warning, like "Don't move or I'll blow you to kingdom come," that sort of thing, aside from being a great line).
GoF he picks on Harry and his friends even more than usual, because Harry denied him justice and respect (remember that aside from Sirius being freed, Snape lost the Oder of Merlin). And in GoF, Moody, or so we thought, is checking up on Snape in the middle of the night and transfiguring his students.
At the end of book 4, when all is finally told, Snape makes yet another drastic change, this time to spy and undeniable DD supporter (that strange "glimmer" or "gleam" in his eye, oh here we go again, could possibly be him fighting back fear). He puts his neck on the line time and time again, always this close *holds fingers inch apart* from being Avada'd (there's little doubt in my mind that poor Snape's been Crucio'd, possibly for not being at the meeting in the graveard).
So by the time we hit OotP, Snape is back at work being a spy, he's supposed to be keeping Harry safe, again, and again Harry thinks Snape is trying to hinder. But we know that Snape really is helping a lot, and by having Harry and Snape stuck in a room together, digging through each other's memories, they find a great deal more about each other. Aside from the fact that I think Snape is startign to realise that Harry has his father's traits, but is not his father. Snape actually shows more maturity and, dare I say, caring towards Harry in OotP, though with the Harry filter, it's hard to tell.
It'll be interesting to see their interaction in HBP, since Harry is deluding himself into thinking that Snape caused Sirius' death, though Snape did no such thing, and seems to be growing.

Wow, this thread, with all it's reading into pasts, makes me feel kinda bad for Snape. :sad:
But he's still incredibly cool. :cool:

I don't think it was a deadly curse. You do make an interesting point that it could be something of Snape's actions, though. Perhaps calling Lily a mudblood bothered Snape a lot more than I had considered. Hmmm....Depends on how you look at it, the spell actually grazed James’s face and was not a direct hit but even so the damage was quite server. If that spell had hit James’s heart or directly in his face it might have killed him.

There is also the old folklore that by using the name you can call something up. Especially, the original beginnings of the saying 'speak of the devil' - and the idea that to summon a demon you had to call it by name, so you don't use the name for fear he might hear you and come.
I also wonder about the idea of the 'true name' - perhaps VM doesn't allow them to use 'Voldemort', contrary to Riddle in the diary, who had recently fashioned the name and had some of his associates calling him by it at the time. The 'true name' idea is really interesting since they wouldn't be using his real name even if they DID say Voldemort - it's not his TRUE name - so far only DD is calling him Tom, which does give some power in that it negates VMs self-image (Tom being a very common name, not at all special) - there's a part of me that really wants DD to call him 'Tommy' - that would really be negating his power!

Loved your post, hwyla! :clap:

Yeah, Voldemort is good at creating himself in his image, eh? He starts out as just a boy called Tom. But he spends his school years and his adult life creating his new self, that everyone fears.

You know who this reminds me of? Snape. (Well, being one of the Snape Girls, he's never far from my mind ... :blush:) But what I mean, is that Snape has spent most of his adult life re-creating himself, to get away from the "Snivellus" identity, and instead build a new identity, that people fear. :sad:

Yes, this is similar to what Mcpherson posted earlier in the thread about (I forgot what it's called now) some type of verbal violence/domination (symbolic violence?). Someone who remembers what it's called, help me out?

It's called symbolic power, or sometimes symbolic violence.

In fact, in order to give myself magical protection, I've decided to anagram my name to "Slipover Knit."

Bahahahahaha!

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Does anyone remember if there was a flash of color associated with that slice spell to James' cheek - sorry don't have my book with me. If there was, did the color correspond to the color of the slicing hex Doholov sent at Hermione? I think we can agree THAT was intended to kill and most likely a 'dark' curse. Both were sent without words if I remember correctly. But on the other hand, a spell that slices would also be helpful in potion-making.

Ah.. JKR she always makes it possible to read things a few ways. Admittedly, whether the intention was to kill James or not, if the spell had hit the jugular vein there would have been trouble! But I think the intent was more to scar that 'pretty-boy' face. However, when Harry asks Remus and Sirius about SWM, we don't hear any mention about that being the time that Snape tried to kill James. But I can see Snape as an adult realizing that the spell could have been lethal (and then he would be stuck now watching Neville try to beat VM 'snicker!!")

The name thing...Names have power--as, for instance, seen in "Rumplestilskin"; there's a whole tradition of the idea of the 'true name' of people, things, whatever; knowing the true name gives one power over that person or thing. Therefore, the true name is kept hidden.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but would that be the origin of why most of us have middle names as well as first & last names?

How about ... SWM really is Snape's Worst Memory because ... Snape unleashed a deadly curse, a Dark curse, which nearly resulted in the death of a student, but fortunately for him it missed.

I personally thought he was just swearing - but you could still be right re' it being something more..

This has always bothered me because it seems out of character for Snape. I mean, it was too mean. I expect him to be curt and sarcastic, but that was a little over the top. I've wondered if it was because that was right before the class on antidotes and he didn't want Hermione in there? But that explanation seems weak to me. I just can't figure it out, but it was definitely the worst thing we've seen Snape do, aside from call Lily a mudblood.

I would say that he would still have a lot of rough edges left in his personality that he hasnt managed to smooth over yet (regardless of what he thinks) - or he may be more than a little jealous of her competence & (unconsciously/habiually?) asserting his authority as a teacher in not the best of ways (i.e - using personal put-downs), again, the old insecurities coming out.

On a side note to that, I posted an interesting little dream a friend of mine had about Snape in here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=2533808#post2533808) - nice thought if that ever was prophetic, discarding his (medium-sized) Githood :sigh:

But I think the intent was more to scar that 'pretty-boy' face.

I think he did it in despair. If this had been in an ordinary school, with no magic involved, he would have tried to hit or kick James, just to make a little opening for himself, a tiny, little chance to get away or end the situation - however uneffective.

I think he did it in despair. If this had been in an ordinary school, with no magic involved, he would have tried to hit or kick James, just to make a little opening for himself, a tiny, little chance to get away or end the situation - however uneffective.It could have been a warning though to tell James to back off. I think this memory of harming James, a popular student may be another reason for this being Snape's Worst Memory. If James was a popular as he was then Snape would have been seen by a lot of the students in Hogsmeade as the one who was wrong. This one event could have given Snape a bad reputation through out the school and subsequently forced Snape into a corner.

I think he did it in despair. If this had been in an ordinary school, with no magic involved, he would have tried to hit or kick James, just to make a little opening for himself, a tiny, little chance to get away or end the situation - however uneffective. i quite agree - I was asking about the color because it has been brought up occasionally that he used a 'dark curse' and if it was the same color as Doholov then I'd be forced to agree. I don't want to be blind in my empathy for Snape.

However, I think it more likely a literal 'lashing out' to fight back - cornered animals will fight tooth & nail given the opportunity and his current-day talent for verbal slices ('cut'ting remarks - okay I'm getting punny - 'snicker') wasn't exactly finely-honed then.

A little time to reflect suggests improvements to parts of my arguments for a “SWM is Snape’s ‘Worst’ memory because of the curse that could have killed James” theory.


I do feel that the memories where one caused (or could have caused) the loss of a human life, or a near death physical injury, would constitute a ‘worst’ memory for any reasonable human being --- if one has such memories. Closer to home (and easier to agree with) is a like memory involving a family member (eg: a moment longer and I would have been too late to save my infant son!). Such an experience very often actually and truly causes a change in character --- either real or literary. A ‘grown-up’ perspective can understand this.. because time and experience begin to teach each of us the tremendously superior relative value of a human life.. as opposed to say.. one’s pride, or not getting ‘dissed’.. ego wars.
(On a secondary level, there are all the extreme things one reads about in a newspaper, things not death related, but horrible none the less, that materially alter the life of the victim)


The POV we’re after concerns a 15-16 year old boy nick-named Snivellus by those who don’t like him. Some meanings for ‘Snivellous’ include: ‘runny nosed’, ‘whiney’ and ‘cry-baby’. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that it refers to a somewhat shy, awkward, odd-ball type that no one understands, who himself is averse to fighting by nature, and who happens to be very intelligent. He becomes the butt for jokes, taunts, the usual garbage. One day he decides ‘enough’ ! Now he’s out for respect, whatever the means.


Then one day it happens.. total humiliation.. and ‘on display’ in front of a crowd no less. He’s helpless, nothing he can do, people are laughing at him.. still helpless.. then.. a tiny window of opportunity appears and he.. ‘LASHES OUT’.
(Note: this is upbeat fiction on the whole, so no AK47’s used on an entire classroom of students and teachers)


A number of earlier posts recounted personal, real-life experiences of taunting.. experiences that resulted in ‘lashing out’ by, say, chucking the nearest thing handy at the head of the taunter-asailant. One such memory evoked relief in the poster – he was relieved that it didn’t result in death or serious injury, because in his case it really could have (no names). I too can recall some things like this, and I wish I couldn’t. I certainly wouldn’t want them broadly known. Under emotional duress, in need of self-respect, such ‘lashing-out’ is really not uncommon, I think. Also, I’d say aiming for the head is typical. Yeah, yeah .. this is all just my opinion..


Anyway, so what I’m arguing for might be renamed the “SWM is Snape’s ‘Worst’ memory because of the curse he ‘lashed out’ with and that truely could have killed James” theory. This is my attempt to address the ‘Snape wouldn’t have used a really dangerous curse, and certainly not in front of all those people’ objections.


.. best I can do..



/\

:welcome: Atmavan and BlackBelladonna!

The book just says "a flash of light", no mention of colour.

Nice etymology information, much appreciated. :tu: The Danish equivalents are the same as the Norwegian, right down to "glimt i øjet", so I don't really have anything to add to what Norbertha said. However, my English - Danish dictionary insists that "glint", used about eyes, suggests "malicious or dangerous".

Originally Posted by silver ink pot
In fact, in order to give myself magical protection, I've decided to anagram my name to "Slipover Knit."

:rotfl: That will certainly confuse the enemy. (Not to mention the rest of us. :lol: )

Originally Posted by thestralgrin
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but would that be the origin of why most of us have middle names as well as first & last names?

I've no idea if it is, but I can't help finding the idea interesting. I've got two middle names and use one of them as a first name. Apparently my parents were overprotective (rather than just a little wierd, as previously assumed by a great many people who could never figure out what to call me).

Subtle, nice catch about Snape having the restorative draught for Trevor ready.

Originally Posted by Norbertha
What I mean is that James seems more calculatng than Sirius, and calculated cruelty somehow feels worse than spontaneous cruelty, doesn't it?

That could be part of it. :agree:

About Snape's hatred switching from James to Sirius after the Whomping Willow Incident, I don't think so. Lupin said about their seventh year that "Snape never lost an opportunity to curse James" - no mention of Sirius there either. That doesn't sound as if Snape's focus changed.

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil
I thought the "guards" chose the passwords? In PoA, the Sir Cadogan painting came up with so many silly passwords, Neville made him tell him all the passwords for the week. Surely McGonagall wasn't involved in approving so many silly passwords. . .

Yes, the paintings in front of Gryffindor tower choose the passwords. I'm not sure if we can transfer that to Slytherin though, their entrance is not guarded by a painting. There's nothing to indicate that the Heads of Houses play any part in choosing passwords though.

Tane, I liked the distinctions you made about Snape using different facial expressions when dealing with children and adults. Interesting. :tu:

I still can't buy the idea that Snape was attempting to kill James--since, as has already been pointed out, this certainly would've been something Sirius would have referred to over and over again throughout the books. In fact, Sirius is dismissive of Snape, seemingly regarding him as beneath him in abilities and intelligence.

When Snape hits James with the spell, he "had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared" (p. 647, US hardcover). Snape hits what he's aiming at. The only reason he appears inept in this scene is he's completely under the control of two other people--since James already had his wand drawn to start and Snape was caught off guard, there was no way for Snape to be the first to cast a spell. Once he's disarmed (and, by the way, nice parallel to the dueling club, wherein Snape neatly disarms Lockhart immediately--Game over), there's nothing he can do. Not that he couldn't, but he can't--he's been rendered helpless by his opponents.

When they slip and give him a chance, Snape reacts violently--the equivalent of throwing a desk or a punch. But to say that he cast the spell with the intent to kill or without knowing it could kill...Cannot possibly see that one. He knows exactly what he's doing; the implication of the scene is that this is calculated--he's had several minutes of lying on the ground to work on it, and a few more of crawling to his wand. He directs the wand "straight at James." This time, he's got *** upper hand of surprise and he uses it deliberately: a maximum effect in a minimum of time--since he also has to know the power will instantly shift back to the two (and two more in reserve, watching). He's trying to shock and disable James. But kill? It doesn't fit.

Not only should Sirius have been talking about it, had that been a possibility (it would've given Sirius a clear reason to hate Snape and to treat him even more contemptuously), but where would Snape get off complaining that Sirius had been capable of murder at the age of 16? The scenario of Snape's attempting to kill James--either as a deliberate act or aas a result of being too dim to realize the consequences (gee--doesn't that sound rather like Sirius and the Willow, instead??)--makes Snape capable of murder at the age of 15. Therefore, he has no right to be bringing up Sirius in PoA.

This also isn't a strong enough example of attempted murder to explain the rest of Snape's character and attitude. As has been discussed here previously, Snape consistently gives warnings before his loses his temper--and, most strikingly, in PoA when he tells Sirius to give him a reason. Snape does not act first; there's a rattlesnake aspect to him--he gives fair warning that there will be trouble.

It is far more likely that this attitude derives from a far more serious, deadly episode when he was a DE. SWM is the worst because of the total, absolute humiliation--his abilities are negated; he is forced to endure the will of others; and he is left without a shred of dignity whatsoever. It's the worst because it is wholly personal. It is not the worst because there may have been harm to James--James is not the focus of this memory; this memory is all about Snape, and there is no revelation of guilt over what Snape may or may not have tried to do to James. It remains the same 20 years later, as when Snape hauls Harry out of the Pensieve, he tells him, "Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?" (p. 649)--not, 'gee, I'm sorry I nearly killed your father with that spell.'

Twenty years ago, he did exactly what he intended to do. He had plenty of time to calculate. He didn't disarm James, nor did he chose a body-binding spell. He did exactly what he wanted to do; obviously, it was a Dark spell, but it was intended to do precisely what it did. Clearly, Snape has enough skill at the age of 15 not only to hit what he aims at, but to do so without an incantation. The latter is indicative that he's not a fumbling idiot in this scene--he just needs the opportunity to be able to show what he can do. Which is surgical, not homicidal.

Twenty years ago, he did exactly what he intended to do. He had plenty of time to calculate. He didn't disarm James, nor did he chose a body-binding spell. He did exactly what he wanted to do; obviously, it was a Dark spell, but it was intended to do precisely what it did. Clearly, Snape has enough skill at the age of 15 not only to hit what he aims at, but to do so without an incantation. The latter is indicative that he's not a fumbling idiot in this scene--he just needs the opportunity to be able to show what he can do. Which is surgical, not homicidal. I'm not convinced that this was a DARK spell - that's why I asked about color - and later when Doholov used the Slicing hex at Hermione, we don't hear about how Harry noticed it was the same hex that Snape used in SWM and the description in SWM doesn't really sound like that large slicing motion that Doholov used either.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but would that be the origin of why most of us have middle names as well as first & last names?Perhaps that's why DD has SO MANY names!? 'snicker'

:lol: In fact, in order to give myself magical protection, I've decided to anagram my name to "Slipover Knit."

Bahahahahaha!:rotfl:
Aside from the fact that I think Snape is startign to realise that Harry has his father's traits, but is not his father. Snape actually shows more maturity and, dare I say, caring towards Harry in OotP, though with the Harry filter, it's hard to tell. I'm not sure about this, especially not about the caring. There isn't much interaction between Harry and Snape after the Occlumency lessons--just Dolores's office and when Harry tells Snape he's trying to figure out what curse to use on Malfoy. I think that Snape doesn't react as strongly to the latter as would have been characteristic, but that's not enough for me to feel that there's been much of a change in his view of Harry.
However, I think it more likely a literal 'lashing out' to fight back - cornered animals will fight tooth & nail given the opportunity I think this is what it is, as well. As for the spell being dark, we don't have enough information to know. Certainly, the students have never learned about it in DADA. It could be a spell used for some other purpose and only be dangerous or unpleasant when applied to a person--like "scourgify" that James uses.
A number of earlier posts recounted personal, real-life experiences of taunting.. experiences that resulted in ‘lashing out’ by, say, chucking the nearest thing handy at the head of the taunter-asailant. One such memory evoked relief in the poster – he was relieved that it didn’t result in death or serious injury, because in his case it really could have (no names). I think one of these was mine and I did say that I was lucky I didn't hit the guy with my flag. I doubt it could have caused death, but I suppose it could have caused a serious injury, if it hit him just the right way. Still, I think back on that with amusement because nothing bad did happen, I had my "vengeance" (although I was really just "lashing out"), and he never bothered me again. Nothing bad happened to James either (I imagine a face slash to a wizard is minor, although unpleasant) and he went on to humiliate Snape further. If James had gone away when Snape slashed his face, I doubt it would be SWM. I doubt it would have mattered what the other students thought--Snape was clearly unpopular at the beginning of SWM and he must have already had the reputation of being a "Dark Arts Oddball." If Snape, in lashing out, had actually killed James, then it would likely be SWM for a different reason.
I've got two middle names and use one of them as a first name. Apparently my parents were overprotective (rather than just a little wierd, as previously assumed by a great many people who could never figure out what to call me).:lol: You have a first name, too, right? (That you're not using as a first name?)

Some close friends gave their baby daughter 2 middle names. The second middle name is the mother's last name, but the baby's last name is not the same as either of the parents' last names. (The baby doesn't have the father's last name as any part of her name.) Confusing, huh?
SWM is the worst because of the total, absolute humiliation--his abilities are negated; he is forced to endure the will of others; and he is left without a shred of dignity whatsoever. I think it's this simple, too.

But I think the intent was more to scar that 'pretty-boy' face.

I think he did it in despair. If this had been in an ordinary school, with no magic involved, he would have tried to hit or kick James, just to make a little opening for himself, a tiny, little chance to get away or end the situation - however uneffective.
However, I think it more likely a literal 'lashing out' to fight back - cornered animals will fight tooth & nail given the opportunity and his current-day talent for verbal slices ('cut'ting remarks - okay I'm getting punny - 'snicker') wasn't exactly finely-honed then.
Twenty years ago, he did exactly what he intended to do. He had plenty of time to calculate. He didn't disarm James, nor did he chose a body-binding spell. He did exactly what he wanted to do; obviously, it was a Dark spell, but it was intended to do precisely what it did. Clearly, Snape has enough skill at the age of 15 not only to hit what he aims at, but to do so without an incantation. The latter is indicative that he's not a fumbling idiot in this scene--he just needs the opportunity to be able to show what he can do. Which is surgical, not homicidal.
All of these are really good ideas. :tu: Maybe all of them are true to a certain extent!

I'm sorry, Atmavan, but I can't see that Snape put SWM in the Pensieve because Snape felt sorry for what happened James. :sad: It doesn't fit the canon at all. The memory is about what happened to young Severus on a day when he didn't expect it and didn't deserve it. Nobody deserves what happened to him that day. And if James got hit in the face, it was Snape's best shot and totally in self-defense.

Atmavan, you certainly aren't the only poster who has ever been sympathetic to James, since he does bleed. However, I can't accept that James is a victim in that scene.

Snape undergoes humiliation in front of a huge crowd, is forced to choke on soap suds, is rendered completely helpless by two different wizards while insults are hurled at him by Sirius, and is then hung upside down. Out of all that, he gets one shot at James and hits him in the face because it is personal. This was a personal attack, and Snape reacts as anyone would, by fighting back.

The canon is that James continued attacking Snape on into the 7th year of school, keeping it a secret from his girlfriend, Lily. Snape still seems to be overwhelmed with anger towards James years later, so why would he feel remorse for fighting back in his 5th year?

Why would anyone feel remorse for fighting back in self-defense, if they are a victim? Why should they feel any guilt? It is the survival instinct. No victim of abuse or bullying should ever feel guilty for fighting back.

Snape may not have even thought of a specific spell. He may have just pointed his wand and thought "Stop it." There is possible canon to back this up. In PoA, Harry "blows up" Aunt Marge. He doesn't intend to do it ~ he just wants her to shut up, and that is how it is manifested.
Not only should Sirius have been talking about it, had that been a possibility (it would've given Sirius a clear reason to hate Snape and to treat him even more contemptuously), but where would Snape get off complaining that Sirius had been capable of murder at the age of 16? The scenario of Snape's attempting to kill James--either as a deliberate act or aas a result of being too dim to realize the consequences (gee--doesn't that sound rather like Sirius and the Willow, instead??)--makes Snape capable of murder at the age of 15. Therefore, he has no right to be bringing up Sirius in PoA.
That's right! The canon shows that Sirius is the one who has no remorse about possibly killing Snape and turning Lupin into a murderer, not that Snape was the perpetrator who is now feeling guilty about trying to kill James in SWM.

It just doesn't work with what we already know about these characters.


SWM is the worst because of the total, absolute humiliation--his abilities are negated; he is forced to endure the will of others; and he is left without a shred of dignity whatsoever.
I think it's this simple, too.
I totally agree with both of you. :tu:

silver ink pot--I agree: not only does Snape not demonstrate any guilt over SWM and his slashing of James' face...there is no reason for him to feel guilty. It is clear, in that incident, that nothing at all would've happened had James not instigated the whole episode; it is also clear that, 20 years later, Snape still hates James uterly and completely. With SWM as the example, one can understand--in fact, as far as I'm concerned, Snape would need no other reason at all to hate James. SWM fills the bill as an excellent reason to hate James. Even for 20 years. I still utterly loathe the people who bullied me. I'm sure (well, I hope) they've changed--but I can't say that I care a whit for them or their current well being. I couldn't, even if I tried, tell you their names today, but I still do remember what they did and I don't forgive them for it. What bullies do is unforgivable. Period.

Snape is a cornered animal in that scene--with the only modification I'd make being that he's a very intelligent cornered animal. I do get the sense that he meant that particular curse--that it's not unintentional magic due to uncontrolled anger. He's going for maximum effect. And I do agree--the spell itself may not necessarily be Dark, but it is used in a Dark manner, to cause injury; Scourgify is an excellent comparison.

Speaking of SWM, I would just like to advertise the fact that the voting for which question to ask JKR has begun. The poll is in a column at the right hand side of the first page of Mugglenet (www.mugglenet.com). There is also a link to the poll at The Leaky Cauldron (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/) (the poll is also in a column on the right side of the page). The first question in TLC's poll is about the point of view of the Pensieve (whether or not there is bias), which has been hotly debated in relation to SWM (especially by those who wish to believe James & Sirius weren't really as bad as what Harry saw). I think that would be a great question for JKR to answer. :tu:

:lol: In fact, in order to give myself magical protection, I've decided to anagram my name to "Slipover Knit."

Bahahahahaha!

And I suppose "Slipover" is your first name, Miss Knit? :rotfl: :rotfl:

No, I don't think Snape feels any guilt. You can't feel any guilt because of something you see as a justified self-defence.

The first question in TLC's poll is about the point of view of the Pensieve (whether or not there is bias), which has been hotly debated in relation to SWM (especially by those who wish to believe James & Sirius weren't really as bad as what Harry saw). I think that would be a great question for JKR to answer.
Thank-you for pointing this out, Chiev! I voted for it last night. Also, thank-you for the update on the personality thread. Hopefully, you'll get enough answers to do a more complete comparison.

About the reasons for SWM to be the worst, I'll bow out of this discussion. I still feel something is missing, but I can't define what or why, exactly, aside from the observations I've already made.

Retaliation: this is something that the one being bullied does as...instinct, I guess. No thought passes about why you shouldn't do it (in my experience, anyway). When they quit, some justification is felt, but when they don't the situation just continues to escalate, with the bully trying to keep the upper hand and the victim getting more determined to put a stop to it. I honestly think this is what happened in the wake of SWM and led directly to the WW incident.

It could have been a warning though to tell James to back off. I think this memory of harming James, a popular student may be another reason for this being Snape's Worst Memory. If James was a popular as he was then Snape would have been seen by a lot of the students in Hogsmeade as the one who was wrong. This one event could have given Snape a bad reputation through out the school and subsequently forced Snape into a corner.

I think Snape already was a total outcast anyway, so harming James couldn't possibly make the situation much worse, it's like adding one extra bonfire in Hell. :sad:


However, I think it more likely a literal 'lashing out' to fight back - cornered animals will fight tooth & nail given the opportunity and his current-day talent for verbal slices ('cut'ting remarks - okay I'm getting punny - 'snicker') wasn't exactly finely-honed then.
SWM is the worst because of the total, absolute humiliation--his abilities are negated; he is forced to endure the will of others; and he is left without a shred of dignity whatsoever. It's the worst because it is wholly personal.
I think it's this simple, too.
I totally agree with both of you.

And I agree with all of you - no surprise there. ;) I can't understand why it's so hard for some to understand that SWM is Snape's worst memory. :sad:


i quite agree - I was asking about the color because it has been brought up occasionally that he used a 'dark curse' and if it was the same color as Doholov then I'd be forced to agree. I don't want to be blind in my empathy for Snape.
I think this is what it is, as well. As for the spell being dark, we don't have enough information to know. Certainly, the students have never learned about it in DADA. It could be a spell used for some other purpose and only be dangerous or unpleasant when applied to a person--like "scourgify" that James uses.

Snape may not have even thought of a specific spell. He may have just pointed his wand and thought "Stop it." There is possible canon to back this up. In PoA, Harry "blows up" Aunt Marge. He doesn't intend to do it ~ he just wants her to shut up, and that is how it is manifested.

It could be as you suggest, Slipover. It would explain why we hear no incantation. On the other hand, perhaps leaving out the incantation is just a writing technique, JKR often leaves out details. I don't think it's a Dark Curse in the sense that it's illegal. I would rather guess that it's a common cutting spell - which, most likely would be called the Severus Charm! :lol: Okay, maybe not. But anyway - a severing or cutting charm, that can be used for slicing up caterpillars or potatoes or whatever.



What bullies do is unforgivable. Period.

*hug* I agree that you shouldn't be expected to forgive your bullies. But if you can find the kindness inside you to forgive them, it would prove that you are a much better person than them. I think your forgiveness can't and shouldn't be asked for. But it's something which you can give. If you can. When or if you feel it's right.

I don't want to forgive them to make it good for them, but I want to do it to make it good for me.

But even if you forgive them, as a person, it does not mean that their actions were okay.


When they quit, some justification is felt, but when they don't the situation just continues to escalate, with the bully trying to keep the upper hand and the victim getting more determined to put a stop to it. I honestly think this is what happened in the wake of SWM and led directly to the WW incident.
Whenever I tried to hit back, it just resulted in me being hit back again tenfold. :sad:

Thank-you for pointing this out, Chiev! I voted for it last night. Also, thank-you for the update on the personality thread. Hopefully, you'll get enough answers to do a more complete comparison.You're welcome!

I hope I continue to get responses in the personality type thread, too. It's very slow and the number of posters who don't list their favorite characters amazes me. . .
I think Snape already was a total outcast anyway, so harming James couldn't possibly make the situation much worse, it's like adding one extra bonfire in Hell.:lol: I'll have to remember that expression: another bonfire in Hell! :lol:

(Sorry, I know you didn't mean to be funny.)
I would rather guess that it's a common cutting spell - which, most likely would be called the Severus Charm! :lol:You're on a roll! :lol:

Hey, I'm not trying to be funny, Chiev! :p Okay, okay, now that you point it out, I must admit that the bonfire in Hell was a bit funny. :lol:

Maybe that's why Snape didn't need the incantation; he only had to think of his own name and it was done!

The bit about SWM that intrigues me is the ignoring of Sirius by Snape. To me, that's yet another instance of Sherlock Holmes' "The mystery of the dog that barked in the night." Sirius says some truly vicious things and he casts spells on Snape; Snape doesn't even look at him. That's fascinating.

Retaliation with bullies with bullies is always a dilemma. Catch-22. If you do retaliate, they escalate; if you don't, they escalate. The key is that their actions really have nothing to do with the victim; the victim is just the object of fun--rather like a human soccer ball, except the bullies don't consider the victim to be human. As James so coolly puts it, "he exists." The only sure way not to be the victim anymore, once the bullies have found the target, is not to exist.

I don't think forgiving bullies is a sign of being a better person, if I may respectfully disagree. Being a better person is not being anything like the bullies. That's where I think Snape has gone wrong; he has fallen into the trap of thinking that constant exercise of power and intimidation makes him invulnerable. It's not actually working, despite what he thinks. But changing that aspect of himself does not require him to forgive the Marauders. I'd actually rather like to see a character not forgive...

It's one thing if the bully apologizes; I do believe that a sincere apology deserves forgiveness. But to forgive where there is no remorse or regret...Why? I don't believe that serves any purpose. As I said before--I would not do what Snape does at the end of GoF: Sirius isn't a bit sorry for anything he ever did to Snape; the act of shaking Sirius' hand only shows that Snape has great regard for Dumbledore. I wouldn't do it, if I didn't hear an apology from the other person. Again--there would be no purpose. It might, in fact, imply forgiveness where none is deserved.

People have asked whether SWM is really that, his worst memory. I believe it was SWM only in relation to Harry Potter. I am not saying that Snape put the memory in the pensieve for Potter to find and feel horrible about; that is too far-fetched. I believe it was something that Snape thought would negatively affect Potter's opinion of him should Potter ever know it.

The other memories in the pensieve must have been similar, then, i.e., specifically related to how Potter would perceive him, probably related to Potter's family. He might not have bothered to hide bad memories which had no context for Potter. He might have had a whole Death Eater's "To Do" list in his head, but if he felt Potter wouldn't find it significant, he might not have hidden it.

I am sure Snape had many bad memories, not specifically related to Potter. Potter saw some of them with rebound Legilimency. It would be foolish to discount the cumulative effect of these experiences and Snape's subsequent activities as a Death Eater, whatever they might have been. It is tempting to blame life choices on childhood trauma or one single event (if one is even that self-aware). In spite of his apparent hanging on to definitive events in his past, Snape has been able to overcome that past to the point he can be useful and perhaps even honorable.

On the other hand, it may be that SWM has some greater significance outside Potter's experience of it and Snape's shame regarding it. It may have been a turning point for Snape in the past, and in the present. He terminated Occlumency lessons, after all, but I believe that was due to a violation of his trust as much as the revelation of the memory. And SWM may be a catalyst, eventually, for Harry's understanding of Snape and growing up. Time will tell.

As for forgiveness of bullies... My experience with schoolyard bullies is quite different from others in this group. I was the dark oddball, to be sure, but no-one ever laid a finger on me (more of the neglect end of the spectrum). On the other hand, I know every experience Potter glimpsed in Snape's memories, in a Muggle way. It seems desirous to know and come to terms with one's past, but should everything be forgiven? I think that is a spiritual question, frankly. It will be interesting to see if Rowling will attempt to answer this in the next two books.

If you do retaliate, they escalate; if you don't, they escalate. The key is that their actions really have nothing to do with the victim; the victim is just the object of fun--rather like a human soccer ball, except the bullies don't consider the victim to be human. As James so coolly puts it, "he exists." The only sure way not to be the victim anymore, once the bullies have found the target, is not to exist.
I don't know about anyone else, but my whole perception of the bullies changed when I realized that I could affect them. It sharpened my...acerbic wit and all the sudden I found myself... It was like fighting back for the first time made me understand that I didn't have to take it. Sure, it escalated, but, in the end, I succeeded in getting the physical bullying to stop. The verbal was finally stopped when I could take what they said and use it against them (hence the acerbic wit). The psychological and emotional bullying went on, but it was so much better than it had been that it didn't really bother me. Who cared if I was an outcast? There was no one there that I wanted to be friends with anyway, so it didn't matter.

I see some of the changes that I went through in Snape's changes from SWM to the current time. Once he found out that he could fight back, once he decided that he wasn't going to take it anymore, his personality would change to reflect that.

I didn't start attacking those who attacked me, but I was more than willing to meet them head on. Snape differs from me in that he (according to Lupin and Sirius) started actively attacking James. I don't know that Snape ever got them to back down, but the scene in GP seems to indicate that he didn't. Which implies that the situation continued to escalate, at least until the WW incident. It is the time period after that which most intrigues me. What was the fall out of that situation and how much of Snape current personality can be directly attributed to it?

I was on another thread and had a thought that I don't remember reading here before. It isn't about our current SWM subject, but relates to the difference in the ways Harry (and others) see Snape and Lupin.

I once started trying to count how many times the kids said just Snape (without the 'professor') and right from the very beginning practically (I'll need to go back to check exactly when if anyone cares) they don't call him by his respectful title - which I'm sure REALLY ticks off snape, since they're still calling Remus 'professor' in bk5 even tho' he isn't their teacher any longer.

The only sure way not to be the victim anymore, once the bullies have found the target, is not to exist.
:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:
I don't think forgiving bullies is a sign of being a better person, if I may respectfully disagree.
You may. :)

I feel that if I can be ready to forgive them if they should ask for it, it allows me to relax more, and be happier. But of course it doesn't work that way for everyone, perhaps it's just me who feels that way.

EDIT: I don't mean ask for forgiveness, I mean say sorry. No, they have no right to ask me to forgive them. But I would like to give them my forgiveness, if they should say sorry - or even anyway, without us ever meeting again... It just gives me peace.

Being a better person is not being anything like the bullies. That's where I think Snape has gone wrong; he has fallen into the trap of thinking that constant exercise of power and intimidation makes him invulnerable.

:agree: Couldn't agree more.

I’m slow.. and this is therefore long.. definitely not a trend.. apologies to all who wade through it..

Thank you subtle science, alisel and silver ink pot (did I miss anyone) for the welcomes.. I’m surprised.. it feels good.

I know you’re all into chocolate.. I’ve a few Ghiradelli squares (milk c. and caramel) left.. they’ll not last long.. however much is purchased, that much is quickly eaten.. I’m pleased to still be able to offer them..

And subtle science, thank you for the Emerson source, you were right on the Over-Soul, aka the Supreme Critic.. I actually have a complete works I picked up free (or maybe 1 dollar) on my way out of a college library !

---- ---- ---- ..(snip).. But I can see Snape as an adult realizing that the spell could have been lethal (and then he would be stuck now watching Neville try to beat VM 'snicker!!")Good one !

---- ---- ---- As for Snape, I think he would need to demonstrate that he is opening up to others--I see Snape's closed demeanor as the most glaring thing he could learn to change. He would need to give something of himself to Harry or Lupin. Snape changing his opinion of Harry or Lupin alone isn't enough because his opinion could change due to new information without him really changing. Also, I don't see that something like suddenly being nice to all his students would be a realistic change at all. Snape isn't a nice or pleasant person and I think that's an integral part of who he is..Well spoken, chievrefueil.. the Lupin comparison frames an example of true change.. and you’ve given an utterly specific trait-change possibility Snape: ‘closed demeanor’ ---> ‘openness’. As well as the point that a simple change of his opinion of others would be insufficient (although it would be positive). 'Openness' and 'trust' were the two I had been thinking of as well. It makes a great point of reference leading into HBP. Thanks for taking the time to give such a considered answer.

Just typing this out makes me feel subtle is right, he may be ‘re-evaluating’, but he’s still believing he’s ‘over it’, when in fact he is not. I’d like to believe he’s changed.. bias.. but the canon is not reasonably convicing as of OotP.. I could make some arguments (eg: “to whom did the dog belong?”).. but they would just be ‘arguments’.

---- ---- ---- .. Yeah, Voldemort is good at creating himself in his image, eh? He starts out as just a boy called Tom. But he spends his school years and his adult life creating his new self, that everyone fears ..(snip).. You know who this reminds me of? Snape. (Well, being one of the Snape Girls, he's never far from my mind ... ) But what I mean, is that Snape has spent most of his adult life re-creating himself, to get away from the "Snivellus" identity, and instead build a new identity, that people fear
..(snip across posts).. would have tried to hit or kick James, just to make a little opening for himself, a tiny, little chance to get away or end the situationGreat take on ‘god’ Voldemort ! He has recreated himself in his own image hasn’t he ? In both name and in form.
Do you really think Snape was trying to just create a chance to run away ? I’d lean to towards ‘end the situation’.
I enjoy reading your posts, by the way ! Wanted to say hello.

---- ---- ----

OK.. now I’m feeling the lightning storm flashing all around me.. WHACK.. and here am I.. a simple lightning bug.. (cheap Mark Twain steal).. but it’s exhilirating to see the best of the true emerging.. blink.. blink..

So was SWM snape’s worst memory because James could have been killed with his curse ?

subtle science .. When they slip and give him a chance, Snape reacts violently--the equivalent of throwing a desk or a punch ..(snip).. the implication of the scene is that this is calculated--he's had several minutes of lying on the ground to work on it, and a few more of crawling to his wand. He directs the wand "straight at James." ..(snip).. He's trying to shock and disable James. (1) But kill? It doesn't fit ..(snip)..
(2) Not only should Sirius have been talking about it, had that been a possibility ..(snip)..
(3) where would Snape get off complaining that Sirius had been capable of murder at the age of 16? ..(snip)..
(4) This also isn't a strong enough example of attempted murder to explain the rest of Snape's character and attitude. ..(snip)..
(5) As has been discussed here previously, Snape consistently gives warnings before his loses his temper--and, most strikingly, in PoA when he tells Sirius to give him a reason ..(snip)..
(6) It is far more likely that this attitude derives from a far more serious, deadly episode when he was a DE. . ..(snip)..
(7) SWM is the worst because of the total, absolute humiliation--his abilities are negated; he is forced to endure the will of others; and he is left without a shred of dignity whatsoever ..(snip)..

(8) there is no revelation of guilt over what Snape may or may not have tried to do to James. It remains the same 20 years later, as when Snape hauls Harry out of the Pensieve, he tells him, "Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?" (p. 649)--not, 'gee, I'm sorry I nearly killed your father with that spell.' ..(snip)..
(9) Twenty years ago, he did exactly what he intended to do. ..(snip)..
(10) Even for 20 years. I still utterly loathe the people who bullied me. I'm sure (well, I hope) they've changed--but I can't say that I care a whit for them or their current well being. I couldn't, even if I tried, tell you their names today, but I still do remember what they did and I don't forgive them for it.
-------- -------- --------
chievrefueil .. (11) I think one of these was mine ..(snip).. I think back on that with amusement because nothing bad did happen, I had my "vengeance" ..(snip).. Nothing bad happened to James either ..(snip).. and he went on to humiliate Snape further.
(12) If James had gone away when Snape slashed his face, I doubt it would be SWM.
-------- -------- --------
silver ink pot (13) Snape still seems to be overwhelmed with anger towards James years later, so why would he feel remorse for fighting back in his 5th year?What fabulous posts.. passion, power, precision.. I’m humbled..
(please forgive the condensed approach, no disrespect intended, just balancing brevity with )

First, to respond to and cover the missed connections..(1) the intention didn’t have to be to kill,
(2) Sirius wouldn’t have had to realize it, only Snape needed to realize it within himself,
(4) wouldn’t need to explain ‘the rest’ of Snape’s character and attitude,
(5) 37-38 year old adult Snape does give warning, but we’re talking about 15-16 year old boy Snape.

Next, the dead on the spot, right between the eyes counterpoints.. (all great)(8) this one is deadly, subtle science, "Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?" (p. 649)--not, 'gee, I'm sorry I nearly killed your father with that spell.' You are right. It absolutely doesn’t fit canon, in Snape’s own words no less. On the other hand (#7) fits like a glove. Moreover, your clear words, “there is no revelation of guilt over what Snape may or may not have tried to do to James” anywhere in the books (neither acknowledgement).
(12) Point well taken, chievrefueil, “If James had gone away when Snape slashed his face, I doubt it would be SWM” .. it’s not in print, but I feel the doubt myself each time I read your phrase, absolutely.
(3) I agree that given Snape’s character, hypocrisy doesn’t fit, so “where would Snape get off complaining that Sirius had been capable of murder at the age of 16?” (subtle science) Ring the bell.
(13) Indeed, silver ink pot,printed page supports “Snape still seems to be overwhelmed with anger towards James years later”, whereas if he felt sympathy or remorse for a near killing, then that anger seems out of place.. so it doesn’t fit.
(10) It’s hard for me to relate to the memory in SWM as a worst memory for Prof. Snape, a 37-38 year old male for whom ‘right action’ seems as natural as breathing, although not nearly so easy.. and who has such strong character and self-reliance (maybe not self-posessed?).. but if you all can imagine it to be worst in terms of 'humiliation' and 'powerlessness', then that’s good enough for me.

Conclusion.. (How can I not agree in the midst of the evidence?) ..subtle science (9) “Twenty years ago, he did exactly what he intended to do”
(10) “SWM is the worst because of the total, absolute humiliation--his abilities are negated; he is forced to endure the will of others; and he is left without a shred of dignity whatsoever”

Bravo! Bravo! Fortismo!

Cool questions.. and just-friendly stuff..
(6) and (4) “ the rest of Snape's character and attitude”, “attitude derives from a far more serious, deadly episode when he was a DE”.. details forthcoming in print.. I believe it’s true..

(11) yeah, it was yours I was referring to chievrefueil .. I hope I didn’t mis-use it.. I on the other hand DO have a couple of small examples in similar categories, none make the 'worst' list however..

Ciao,ciao for now..



/\

Do you really think Snape was trying to just create a chance to run away ? I’d lean to towards ‘end the situation’.
I enjoy reading your posts, by the way ! Wanted to say hello.
Hello! :)
Now that you say it, I hear how unlike Snape it sounds to run away. No, he wouldn't like to been seen running away from SWM, he would see that as a display of weakness, as good as admitting that he's hurt and powerless. Perhaps he lashed out in order to do something, just something, not just lie there and take it like a punchball. Defend his dignity.

Speaking of SWM, I would just like to advertise the fact that the voting for which question to ask JKR has begun. The poll is in a column at the right hand side of the first page of Mugglenet. There is also a link to the poll at The Leaky Cauldron (the poll is also in a column on the right side of the page). The first question in TLC's poll is about the point of view of the Pensieve (whether or not there is bias), which has been hotly debated in relation to SWM (especially by those who wish to believe James & Sirius weren't really as bad as what Harry saw). I think that would be a great question for JKR to answer.
Thank you! I'll go and vote for that one. I wasn't too thrilled with the list on Mugglenet, but oh well.
It could be as you suggest, Slipover.
:rotfl: I was just kidding about "slipover knit." :lol: "SIP" conuses people enough, lol.

It would explain why we hear no incantation. On the other hand, perhaps leaving out the incantation is just a writing technique, JKR often leaves out details. I don't think it's a Dark Curse in the sense that it's illegal. I would rather guess that it's a common cutting spell - which, most likely would be called the Severus Charm! Okay, maybe not. But anyway - a severing or cutting charm, that can be used for slicing up caterpillars or potatoes or whatever.
:lol: Severus Charm!

Someone on The Plot Thickens forum had to point out to me ~ because I'm slow ~ that in my essay about magical knots, I didn't even mention the name "Severus," as in "severing a knot." Sometimes I'm blinded by obvious things, lol. Of course, Snape also "severs his ties" with Voldemort, and who knows what else that name implies. I always think that "Severus Snape" sounds like "Sever his nape." :evil:
The key is that their actions really have nothing to do with the victim; the victim is just the object of fun--rather like a human soccer ball, except the bullies don't consider the victim to be human. As James so coolly puts it, "he exists." The only sure way not to be the victim anymore, once the bullies have found the target, is not to exist.
:tu: Great point, very aptly put!

Er, I think I should clarify something: When I said it would make me feel better if I could forgive my bullies, and therefore I'm working on forgiving them, I didn't mean to suggest that everyone who has been bullied should "just get over it"! It's not easy at all! And there is no "just"! I don't think anyone should blame Snape for not forgiving James and Sirius. What works for some, doesn't necessarily work for others.

I wasn't too thrilled with the list on Mugglenet, but oh well.
Yeah, I struggled to find an interesting question there. :shrug: I hope it's because Emerson had already thought of all the interesting questions himself ... :angel:

Someone on The Plot Thickens forum had to point out to me ~ because I'm slow ~ that in my essay about magical knots, I didn't even mention the name "Severus," as in "severing a knot."
You're not slow!!!!!!!!
I can't help but fear that Sever Us could mean something ... chaos in the order when they finally hear his story, and discover what he's done in his past, as a DE?

Ps, I know you were joking about Slipover, I'm just joking too, to show affection ... :blush:

Atmavan--But even the 15-year-old Snape shows the signs of the adult Snape's habit of warning before he detonates: rather than remaining silent while he's under the Impedimenta spell, he tells James, "You--wait" (p. 646, US hardcover). It's a consistency of character that I really like.


Ars Tempus--I like the idea that Snape removed SWM because it was not something Harry should see. I still think the primary reason--the overwhelming reason--is the pisture it paints of Snape; however, it also seems logical that it is amemory that he doesn't want Harry to see, on many levels.

clkginny--I agree: Snape seems to have taken on the attitude that he would confront the Marauders--well, James--no matter the cost. More of that stubborn pride, I would think: he was going to win--draw even at least, even if it killed him.

There is a certain freedom to that attitude. Slugging my tormentor helped me to realize that I didn't care about those people, either: what they thought or whgat they did, as long as I could get them away from me. In a way, I suppose they taught me patience, because, somewhere along the line, I realized that I would not be around them forever: school would eventually end, graduation would come, and I could leave them in the dust. In the meantime, I suppose I tried to reduce them to something as insignifcant as I was to them...

To get back around to Snape: he seems at a decided disadvantage--he ends up at the place where it all happened; the wizarding world is small and limited...and so he ends up working for the Order, of which the Marauders are members...then he ends up teaching James' son...and then Lupin arrives to teach...and then Headquarters is Sirius Black's home. And Sirius makes it clear that there's no remorse whatsover--the only regret is that he didn't succeed with the Willow Incident. Lupin appears superficially to want to make peace, although we never see him say it explicitly (and implicitly doesn't count with me, incase you hadn't guessed!)--and then proceeds to do things throughout the school year that question his sincerity in his implied attitude...

The lingering grudge makes perfect sense to me! : ) !!!!!!!!!!

To get back around to Snape: he seems at a decided disadvantage--he ends up at the place where it all happened; the wizarding world is small and limited...and so he ends up working for the Order, of which the Marauders are members...then he ends up teaching James' son...and then Lupin arrives to teach...and then Headquarters is Sirius Black's home. And Sirius makes it clear that there's no remorse whatsover--the only regret is that he didn't succeed with the Willow Incident. Lupin appears superficially to want to make peace, although we never see him say it explicitly (and implicitly doesn't count with me, incase you hadn't guessed!)--and then proceeds to do things throughout the school year that question his sincerity in his implied attitude...

The lingering grudge makes perfect sense to me!
Not only a lingering grudge, but to once again find yourself around those who made you most vulnerable....Ugh! Once again, it brings me back to Dumbledore's attitude at the end of OotP. He seems much more understanding of Snape's...mistakes than of Sirius's. Subtle, you mentioned before that perhaps Dumbledore was made aware of SWM after the abrupt end of Occlumency lessons. I, too, lean that way. It would also help explain his apparent depression if he felt that he had failed a student (and I can't see him not thinking that he had failed Snape if that happened without his having found out). I wonder if part of Harry's deliberate shifting of blame to Snape was due to Dumbledore's disappointment with Sirius. I'm ranging off topic, here.

I'm not trying to bore everyone with my own experiences, by the way. It is just easier for me to explain what I see in Snape by comparing it to myself, at times.

clkginny--I'm rather doing the same myself...I aplogize to anyone who may be thinking, 'why her autobiography, please??" : )


I just don't see the logic any other way: I really don't think Dumbledore kbew anything of SWM until after Occlumency. It just fits--Dumbledore 's attitude throughout the rest of the books, for one. How could he require Snape to shake hands with Sirius, without there being a clearing of the air between the two men (Sirius definitely owes Snape an apology; Snape may...?...owe Sirius one)? Dumbledore is impatient in that scene; at the end of OotP, he's deeply saddened--even depressed, as you say. In GoF, he's got the 'get over it' reaction...that's not how he appears at the end of OotP. And all of this is supported by Dumbledore's complete lack of any criticism of Snape whatsoever; his comments about Sirius, although he offers positives, are primarily critical...Dumbledore missed something, and I think he's stunned to find out how grave it was. Even if the reason he missed it was Snape never spoke of it.

And I think you're also on track with the observation that Harry may also be trying to compensate--to counter Dumbledore's criticism of Sirius by accusing Snape--as Dumbledore emphatically does not. It doesn't matetr that Harry's accusations are baseless: it's just a defense mechanism.

Yeah, I struggled to find an interesting question there. I hope it's because Emerson had already thought of all the interesting questions himself ...
:) We can only hope! But I have faith in Emerson, and I'm looking forward to reading the interview (tries not to jump up and down with excitement, lol).
Ps, I know you were joking about Slipover, I'm just joking too, to show affection ...
Well, of course, my dear! ;) And I know that you know that I know you were joking, LOL. :p
I'm not trying to bore everyone with my own experiences, by the way. It is just easier for me to explain what I see in Snape by comparing it to myself, at times.
Who's bored? :huh: I do the same thing all the time.
clkginny--I'm rather doing the same myself...I aplogize to anyone who may be thinking, 'why her autobiography, please??" : )
I'm certainly not saying that. I think arguments are always given more weight when people give their reasons why they feel the way they do. I'm a big believer in real-world examples and parallels to the books.

Edited to Add: Even though SWM has dredged up some unpleasant memories from my childhood, I'm really glad in a way. I think each person lives through things and then we push it all to the back of the mind in adulthood, forgetting that bullying is still going on all over the world and affecting victims in each generation. I used to only think about that when I would read a news story about Columbine High School or some other outrageous act. But now, I think about it every day, and it has made me a more understanding person, I hope.

Atmavan--But even the 15-year-old Snape shows the signs of the adult Snape's habit of warning before he detonates: rather than remaining silent while he's under the Impedimenta spell, he tells James, "You--wait" (p. 646, US hardcover). It's a consistency of character that I really like.It's a fair point you make.. consistency of character is actually what first really drew me into reading the series. The characters are all so charmed to begin with, but then even in the midst of seemingly chaotic activity they remain 'in character', remain themselves, take on a life, they even have histories..

To get back around to Snape: he seems at a decided disadvantage--he ends up at the place where it all happened; the wizarding world is small and limited...and so he ends up working for the Order, of which the Marauders are members...then he ends up teaching James' son...and then Lupin arrives to teach...and then Headquarters is Sirius Black's home. And Sirius makes it clear that there's no remorse whatsover--the only regret is that he didn't succeed with the Willow Incident. Lupin appears superficially to want to make peace, although we never see him say it explicitly (and implicitly doesn't count with me, incase you hadn't guessed!)--and then proceeds to do things throughout the school year that question his sincerity in his implied attitude... The lingering grudge makes perfect sense to me!Yes, and in the face of all that he continues so steady, his convictions must run deep.


I've got a little project in mind, it has to do with the 'high intelligence' of Prof. Snape and his impatience with 'dunderheads', if I can get it done I'll post it here in a bit.



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I've got a little project in mind, it has to do with the 'high intelligence' of Prof. Snape and his impatience with 'dunderheads', if I can get it done I'll post it here in a bit.

Looking forward to that one - sounds like it'll be a good read :tu: :cool:

Speaking of SWM, I would just like to advertise the fact that the voting for which question to ask JKR has begun:

Thanks for that - I voted for a diffrerent question but the SWM tempted me a lot.

It was like fighting back for the first time made me understand that I didn't have to take it. Sure, it escalated, but, in the end, I succeeded in getting the physical bullying to stop. The verbal was finally stopped when I could take what they said and use it against them (hence the acerbic wit).

:agree: - people can be trained, they just seem to a lot more fiddly creatures to handle than most.

Being a better person is not being anything like the bullies. That's where I think Snape has gone wrong; he has fallen into the trap of thinking that constant exercise of power and intimidation makes him invulnerable. It's not actually working, despite what he thinks. But changing that aspect of himself does not require him to forgive the Marauders. I'd actually rather like to see a character not forgive....

That would actually make him even more vulnerable - certainly it hasnt earned him much respect from most of the students (who, as hwyla pointed out, prefer to refer to him as simply "Snape" rather than add "Professor" as they do with Lupin). Putting up a facade like that would isolate him from all but the most mature of people - and I think he is currently very fortunate to have plenty of such around him in most (if not all)of the staff - and even at least one of the students (Hermione) ... wonder if her getting those occasional-but-mean putdowns from him might have something to do with that - he would know as a legilimens that she's basically on his side - And she's also hyper-competent as well. Maybe he still cant feel comfortable with something like that, & feels threatened enough to use insults to keeps her at a distance whenever the opportunity comes up (like telling Lily to shove off in in the pensieve ... and I do suspect he's got a lot of lingering "male-pride" issues as well ;) ). I think most of us have known people like that.

Read somewhere that choosing to forgive (like most things) implied making yet another choice: to do so by putting aside the need to get even (detatchment), or to absolve the guilty party of responsibility - Interesting thought.

thestralgrin--I'm not sure what you mean would make him more vulnerable...?

If it's Snape's defense mechanism of using power and intimidation, then I think I agree: because it is a facade, rather than reality, and facades can crack. However, if you meant my point about his not forgiving the Marauders, then I disagree. I don't find a connection there. He certainly should not absolve the Marauders of responsibility--they should take full responsibility for what they did. I don't see any particular reason that it would make Snape vulnerable if he did not forgive them, as none of them indicate any particular remorse for their actions. In fact, there might be strength there: realizing that it was their actions which made him a victim and placing the responsibility for that squarely on their shoulders.

I also don't know that Hermione is especially that high up in Snape's world: is she that much on his radar? She's annoying and she's Harry's friend--that seems enough to earn her Snape's occasional notice.He's said and done nothing that hints he thinks of her as some sort of competition, or that he has any awareness of any of her defenses of him.

I also don't know that Hermione is especially that high up in Snape's world: is she that much on his radar? She's annoying and she's Harry's friend--that seems enough to earn her Snape's occasional notice.He's said and done nothing that hints he thinks of her as some sort of competition, or that he has any awareness of any of her defenses of him.
Snape strikes me as observant, most of the time. While he may not be aware of her role in defending him, I think she is on his radar just because I believe he knows that Harry is the key to Voldemort's defeat. I should probably explain. Those around Harry, his closest friends are probably very important to the order, because they are important to Harry. And if they weren't important and noticed prior to the events at the DOM, then I doubt that it will remain so. They can't take too much of a risk on what Harry might decide to do if his friends are involved.

As to how much she matters to him, I doubt she is any more important than the majority of students.

I've been off doing something that may be ridiculous.. compiling a list of all the insults/complaints/compliments that Snape makes anywhere through OotP.. I'm often ridiculous..

Anyhow I noticed something that relates to your conversation.. Snape strikes me as observant, most of the time. While he may not be aware of her role in defending him, I think she is on his radar just because I believe he knows that Harry is the key to Voldemort's defeat. I should probably explain. Those around Harry, his closest friends are probably very important to the order, because they are important to Harry. And if they weren't important and noticed prior to the events at the DOM, then I doubt that it will remain so. They can't take too much of a risk on what Harry might decide to do if his friends are involved.

As to how much she matters to him, I doubt she is any more important than the majority of students.Is Snape not only aware of her, but expecting Hermione in particular to recognize and report Lupin as a werewolf ? I'm referring to PoA, ch. 9, where Snape has taken over Lupin's class. Or is he simply addressing the entire class with the expectation that someone certainly will do so ?

I'm also wondering, Snape seems to be honest. As I've been going over his insults/complaints/compliments I started to wonder to what degree he is willing to b.s. ? How far will he manipulate the truth, or lie, in order to fullfill his ends ?



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Some quotes to consider..“As I was saying before Potter interrupted, Professor Lupin has not left any record of the topics you have covered so far -“
..(snip)..“Be quiet (to Hermione),” said Snape coldly. “I did not ask for infromation. I was merely commenting on Professor Lupin’s lack of organization.” ..(snip).. “You are easily satisfied. Lupin is hardly overtaxing you - I would expect first years to be able to del with Red Caps and grindylows. Today we shall discuss -”..(snip)..”-werewolves,” said Snape.

“Miss Granger,“ said Snape I a voice of deadluy calm, “I was under the impression that I am teaching this lesson, not you. And I am telling you all to turn to page 394.” He galnced around again. “All of you! Now!”..(snip)..

“Which of you can tell me how we distinguish between the werewolf and the true wolf? said Snape.
Everyone sat in motionless silence; everyone except Hermione, whoese hand, as it so often did, had shot straight into the air.

“Anyone?“ Snape said, ignoring Hermione. His twisted smile was back. “Are you telling me that Professor Lupin hasn’t even taught you the basic distinction between -” ..(snip).. “Silence!” snarled Snape. “Well, well, well, I never thought I’d meet a third-year class who wouldn’t even recognize a werewolf when they saw one. I shall make a point of informing Professor Dumbledore how very behind you all are..”

Please, sir,” said Hermione, whose hand was still in the air, “the werewolf differs from the true wolf in several small ways. The snout of the werewolf-“

“That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Miss Granger“ said Snape cooly. “Five more points from Gryffindor for being an insufferable know-it-all.”..(snip)..

“Detention, Weasley,“ said Snape silkily, his face very close to Ron’s. “And if I ever hear you criicize the way I teach a class again, you will be vrey sorry indeed.” ..(snip)..

.. They sat and made notes on werewolves from the textbook, while Snape prowled up and down the rows of desks, examining the work they had been doing with Porfessor Lupin.
“Very poorly explained.. That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found in Mongolia.. Professor Lupin gave this eight out of ten? I wouldn’t have given it three..”

When the bell rang at last, Snape held them back.
“You will each write an essay, to be handed in to me, on the ways you recognize and kill werewolves. I want two rolls of parchment on the subject, and I want them by Monday morning. It is time somebody took this class in hand..”

thestralgrin--I'm not sure what you mean would make him more vulnerable...?

If it's Snape's defense mechanism of using power and intimidation, then I think I agree: because it is a facade, rather than reality, and facades can crack..

Definitely that. The other was mainly playing around with ideas.

Snape’s ends when he takes over Lupin's DADA in PoA, ch 9..

Firstly, Snape wants the entire class (1) to recognize a werewolf if they see one (or (1b) to recognize that Lupin is a werewolf) and (2) to know how to kill a werewolf (incl. Lupin) if they should happen to run into one. Even if he’s protecting them, he must know that if some do learn the material, then (3) one of them might make Lupin’s secret known, ending Lupin’s tenure.. so he either doesn’t care one way or the other if this happens or he specifically wants Lupin fingered. Note that killing Lupin if he is a werewolf is not unreasonable, otherwise he will bite his prey, but is safe so long as he drinks his potion.

Does he single Hermione out as the one most likely to finger Lupin ? No !

He really does want the entire class to know this, not just Hermione. He ignores her wanting to answer his question on recognizing werewolves, and then stops her when she starts anyhow. Evidently, he wants them all actively learning the material, not blankly listening to Hermione explaining the details. On the other hand, it could also be that if she really already knows, then she has done nothing to date about reporting it, so the entire class needs to learn it for Lupin to be fingered. So whether ending Lupin’s tenure is incidental or specific, in either case it makes sense for Snape to do what he’s doing.

So far, I can’t yet draw a conclusion as to whether Lupin is out to save the children or to discredit/eliminate Lupin as a teacher, based only on what’s here.


Secondarily, he is openly discrediting Lupin to the class. Is he justified ? I would say that if he really believes what he’s saying, then the thing to do is confront Lupin or report it to Dumbledore, not discredit a teacher in front of a bunch of Lupin’s students. I’m puzzled here, what good does discrediting another teacher in front of the students do the students or Lupin or Snape or Dumbledore ? Purposeless behavior seems unlikely for Snape.

Is he saying things to taunt them into learning the material ? Eg: “Well, well, well, I never thought I’d meet a third-year class who wouldn’t even recognize a werewolf when they saw one.” If so, then why also say “I shall make a point of informing Professor Dumbledore how very behind you all are..” If so, then why tell the students that he’s going to inform Dumbledore that Lupin is failing to keep them on track ? As far as I know, there is no canon to say that Snape ever did or did not report these things to Dumbledore. Still no conclusions from my side.


I think I’m out for now.. maybe all the conclusions will magically appear by tomorrow.. (or maybe I'll check v3 for previous ideas on this now that I’ve framed them for myself)

I’m also curious as to how much Snape is willing to manipulate the truth, or lie, to fullfill an objective. Of course, lying can sometimes be justified, Dumbledore has done it on occasion (eg: to Umbridge and Fudge about being the true originator of Dumbledore's Army).


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First of all, I would like to say thanks to Chiev for quoting me on page 66, 67? One of those. Not to start a pity party, but no one else quoted my long post on page 66, I believe. And I was being insightful, dang it! :grumble:

Anyway, on to business. I think Snape dislikes Lupin for three main reasons:

1) Lupin was a Marauder,
2) Lupin never did anything to hold back James and Sirius (eg. SWM, not telling DD about animagus Sirius), and,
3) Snape thought for most of PoA that Lupin was in on the joke that nearly killed him.

Now, Snape showed either a lot of maturity or DD devotion (my bet's on the latter) to make up a potion for Lupin every month. But if I knew I could discredit and possibly sack someone who'd helped make life hell, I'd probably do it. Snape really is acting on human nature here.

Also, I think Snape would be quite willing to lie for the right objective. Take into consideration his spy work for the Order.

Another also: This thread really makes me feel lucky, as I was never really bullied in school. I remember in junior high (which is high time for teasing) I walked around with an almost palpable attitude of, "Irritate me and I will make life most unpleasant."
Unfortunately, I've got a very good friend who was bullied in school, and the only regrets I've got is that I wasn't terribly supportive at the time, and that I wasn't there to beat the living snot out of his tormenters.
Yes, I'm a violent thing, I am. ;)

Happy 4th of July, over there!!!!
http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/jon/smillie_flag.gifhttp://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/party/partytime.gifhttp://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/ruinkai/biggrinhat.gif

To get back around to Snape: he seems at a decided disadvantage--he ends up at the place where it all happened; the wizarding world is small and limited...and so he ends up working for the Order, of which the Marauders are members...then he ends up teaching James' son...and then Lupin arrives to teach...and then Headquarters is Sirius Black's home. And Sirius makes it clear that there's no remorse whatsover--the only regret is that he didn't succeed with the Willow Incident. Lupin appears superficially to want to make peace, although we never see him say it explicitly (and implicitly doesn't count with me, incase you hadn't guessed!)--and then proceeds to do things throughout the school year that question his sincerity in his implied attitude...

The lingering grudge makes perfect sense to me! : ) !!!!!!!!!!
Not only a lingering grudge, but to once again find yourself around those who made you most vulnerable....Ugh!
Yeah, that must be torture. :sad: Snape should emigrate to America. Perhaps he will when the war is over.


Well, of course, my dear! And I know that you know that I know you were joking, LOL.
:)

I've got a little project in mind, it has to do with the 'high intelligence' of Prof. Snape and his impatience with 'dunderheads', if I can get it done I'll post it here in a bit.

I'm looking forward to it! :tu:

I've been off doing something that may be ridiculous.. compiling a list of all the insults/complaints/compliments that Snape makes anywhere through OotP.. I'm often ridiculous..

Can we see it? :)

Secondarily, he is openly discrediting Lupin to the class. Is he justified ? I would say that if he really believes what he’s saying, then the thing to do is confront Lupin or report it to Dumbledore, not discredit a teacher in front of a bunch of Lupin’s students. I’m puzzled here, what good does discrediting another teacher in front of the students do the students or Lupin or Snape or Dumbledore ?

Yeah, I don't think that was the most helpful approach either. He must have felt that Dumbledore didn't listen to him. He had been trying to warn Dumbledore about Lupin all year, even before he was hired. But Dumbledore went ahead and hired him anyway. It seems to me like Snape is trying a back door when the front door turned out to be locked. If he can't make Dumbledore see the danger that he's seeing, he tries the students instead. (But why do it in such an angry way? Because it's Snape, I suppose ... )
First of all, I would like to say thanks to Chiev for quoting me on page 66, 67? One of those. Not to start a pity party, but no one else quoted my long post on page 66, I believe. And I was being insightful, dang it!
Now I see why you never quote anyone, Subtle. No quotations -> no disappointments.

Sometimes I don't quote posts that I think are good because I can't find anything else to add. I just read them, and think wow, that's interesting. But then I can't think of anything to say. :)

Happy 4th of July, over there!!!!Thank's ! And may ony Good and Brotherhood eminate from her..

Honored to hear from you Norbertha !

Also, a quick note to 23DuelsADay. Please don't take offence, but time can be so limited.. and I'm such a young pup to this kind of website.. I am still learning to balance between satisfying my own little knowledge quests and engaging in a chat.. and time.. time is precious. No offence intended.. I actually remember reading and enjoying your post at the time. Enjoy !


Can we see it? :)As I was proceeding I started to see how big it was and thought "no way I can post this kind of thing, nowhere has anyone done that sort of thing"..

I'm into PoA, ch 9 so far.. it's not so hard as it sounds, since my books are all flagged from the bottom for snape with his key phrases highlited in green.. At that point I decided to diverge for a short break because I realized my grip on the PoA/Snape POV action is not so strong. Be forewarned that my time over the next few days will be much more limited.. so it will take a few days.. but I seem to be enjoying it, so it shouldn't take too long.

Anyway.. please have what I've got so far.. and let me know if I've left anything out.. (maybe there should be a resource thread ?)

---- ---- ----

insults / complaints / accusations / complements (Harry, everyone else)

(SS, ch 8)
“- if you aren’t as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach.” – to entire class

He (Snape) was just telling everyone to look at the perfect way Malfoy had stewed his horned slugs when.. – to class

(Neville cause a little damage) .. “Idiot Boy!” snarled Snape..(snip).. “I suppose you added the porcupine quills before taking the cauldron off the fire?” – to Neville

Snape’s lips curled into a sneer. “Tut, tut – fame clearly isn’t everything.” - to Harry
“Thought you wouldn’t open a book before coming, eh, Potter?” – to Harry

“You – Potter – why didn’t you tell him not to add the quills? Thought he’d make you look good if he got it wrong, did you? That’s another point you’ve lost for Gryffindor.” – to Harry
---- ----
“So,” he said softly, “the train isn’t good enough for the famous Harry Potter and his faithful sidekick Weasley. Wanted to arrive with a bang, did we, boys ? ..(snip).. “You were seen,” he hissed ..(snip).. Six or seven Muggles in all. I believe your father works in the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office?” he said, looking up at Ron and smileing still more nastily. “Dear, dear.. his own son.. “ ..(snip).. (CoS, ch 5)

Snape looked as though Christmas had been cancelled. He cleared his throat and said, “Professor Dumbledore, these boys have flouted the Decree for the Restriction of Underage Wizardry, caused serious damage to an old and valuable tree – surely acts of this nature –“ to DD (CoS, ch 5)

“I suggest, Headmaster, that Potter is not being entirely truthful,” he said. “It might be a good idea if he were deprived of certain privileges until he is ready to tell us the whole story. I personally feel he should be taken off the Gryffindor Quidditch te3am until he is ready to be honest.” – to DD (CoS, ch 9)

“Time to split up the dream team, I think,” he sneered. “Weasley, you can partnber Finnigan. Potter –“
Harry moved automatically toward Hermione.
I don’t think so,” said Snape, smiling coldly. “Mr. Malfoy, come over here. Let’s see what you make of the famous Potter. And you, Miss Granger, you can partner Miss Bulstrode.” (CoS, ch 11)

“A bad idea, Professor Lockhart,” said Snape, gliding over like a large and malevolent bat. “Longbottom causes devastation with the simplest spells. We’ll be sending what’s left of Finch-Fletchley up to the hospital wing in a matchbox.” (CoS, ch 11)

“Hurry up, I’ve got to take you all to Herbology,” barked Snape over the class’s heads, and off they marched .. (CoS, ch 15)

“Just the man,” he said. “The very man. A girl has been snatched by the monster, Lockhart. Taken into the Chamber of Secrets itself. Your moment has come at last.” – to Lockhart (CoS, ch 16)

“I certainly remember you saying you were sorry you hadn’t had a crack at the monster before Hagrid was arrested,” said Snape. “Didn’t you say that the whole affair had been bungled, and that you should have been given a free rein from the first?” – to Lockhart (CoS, ch 16)

“Orange, Longbottom,” said Snape, ladling some up and allowing it to splash back into the cauldron, so that eveyone could see. “Orange. Tell me, boy, does anything penetrate that thick skull of yours? Didn’t you hear me say, quite clearly, that only one rat spleen was needed? Didn’t I state plainly that a dash of leech juice would suffice? What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?” Neville was pink and trembling. He looked as though he was on the verge of tears.(PoA, ch 7)

“I don’t remember asking you to show off, Miss Granger,” said Snape coldly, and Hermione went as pink as Neville. (PoA, ch 7)

“Longbottom, at the end of this lesson we will feed a few drops of this potion to your toad and see what happens. Perhaps that will encourage you to do it properly.” Snape moved away leaving Neville breathless with fear. (PoA, ch 7)

“Everyone gather ‘round,” said Snape, his black eyes glittering, “and watch what happens to Longbottom’s toad. If he has managed to produce a Shrinking Solution, it will shrink to a tadpole. If, as I don’t doubt, he has done it wrong, his toad is likely to be poisoned.” (CoS, ch 7)

Snape, looking sour, pulled a small bottle from the pocket of his robe, poured a few drops on top of Trevor, and he reappeared suddenly, fully grown. “Five points from Gryffindor,” said Snape, which wiped the smiles from every face. “I told you not to help him, miss Granger. Class dismissed. (CoS, ch 7)


As Professor Lupin came in and made to close the door behind him, Snape said, “Leave it open, Lupin. I’d rather not witness this.” He got to hes feet and strode past the class, his black robes billowing behind him. At the doorway he turned on his heel and said, “Possibly no one’s warned you, Lupin, but this class contains Neville Longbottom. I would advise you not to entrust him with anything difficult. Not unless Miss Granger is hissing instructions in his ear.” (CoS, ch 7)

Snape, looking sour, pulled a small bottle from the pocket of his robe, poured a few drops on top of Trevor, and he reappeared suddenly, fully grown. “Five points from Gryffindor,” said Snape, which wiped the smiles from every face. “I told you not to help him, miss Granger. Class dismissed. (CoS, ch 7)

“You remember the conversation we had, Headmaster, just before – ah – the start of term?” said Snape, who was barely opening his lips, as though tring to block Percy out of the conversation. ..(snip).. It seems – almost impossible – that Black could have entered the school without inside help. I did express my concerns when you appointed –“ (CoS, ch 9)

“You remember the conversation we had, Headmaster, just before – ah – the start of term?” said Snape, who was barely opening his lips, as though tring to block Percy out of the conversation. ..(snip).. It seems – almost impossible – that Black could have entered the school without inside help. I did express my concerns when you appointed –“ (CoS, ch 9)

“This lesson began ten minutes ago, Potter, so I think we’ll make it ten points from Gryffindor. Sit down.” ..(snip)..
“He says he’s is feeling too ill to teach today,” said Snape with a twisted smile. “I believe I told you to sit down?” ..(snip)..
“Nothing life-threatening,” he said, looking as though he wished it were. “Five more points from Gryffindor, and if I have to ask you to sit down again, it will be fifty.” (CoS, ch 9)

“As I was saying before Potter interrupted, Professor Lupin has not left any record of the topics you have covered so far -“
..(snip)..“Be quiet (to Hermione),” said Snape coldly. “I did not ask for infromation. I was merely commenting on Professor Lupin’s lack of organization.” ..(snip).. “You are easily satisfied. Lupin is hardly overtaxing you - I would expect first years to be able to del with Red Caps and grindylows. Today we shall discuss -”..(snip)..”-werewolves,” said Snape. (CoS, ch 9)

“Miss Granger,“ said Snape I a voice of deadluy calm, “I was under the impression that I am teaching this lesson, not you. And I am telling you all to turn to page 394.” He galnced around agoin. “All of you! Now!”..(snip).. (CoS, ch 9)

“Anyone?“ Snape said, ignoring Hermione. His twisted smile was back. “Are you telling me that Professor Lupin hasn’t even taught you the basic distinction between -” ..(snip).. “Silence!” snarled Snape. “Well, well, well, I never thought I’d meet a third-year class who wouldn’t even recognize a werewolf when they saw one. I shall make a point of informing Professor Dumbledore how very behind you all are..” (CoS, ch 9)

“That is the second time you have spoken out of turn, Miss Granger“ said Snape cooly. “Five more points from Gryffindor for being an insufferable know-it-all.”..(snip).. (CoS, ch 9)

“Detention, Weasley,“ said Snape silkily, his face very close to Ron’s. “And if I ever hear you criicize the way I teach a class again, you will be v ey sorry indeed.” (CoS, ch 9)

“Very poorly explained.. That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found in Mongolia.. Professor Lupin gave this eight out of ten? I wouldn’t have given it three..” (CoS, ch 9)

“You will each write an essay, to be handed in to me, on the ways you recognize and kill werewolves. I want two rolls of parchment on the subject, and I want them by Monday morning. It is time somebody took this class in hand..” (CoS, ch 9)

And here the clock is ticking.. so ciao, ciao for now..



/\

I tried quoting once and screwed it up; so I stick to references...and anyway, when someone quotes someone else's words, I invariably go back and re-read the context anyway, in case something got lost in the editing. But I don't not-quote people's posts in order to be rude, and I don't not-reference them to ignore them--sometimes I'm just on another train of thought. No offenses are meant, trust me.

Speaking of trust--I haven't yet found an instance in the books where Snape is lying. He lies, clearly, for the Order, by pretending to be a loyal DE to Voldemort; his spying seems justified lying to me. : ) For the rest of the time, he seems to be incredibly straightforward.

When Snape conducts the class on werewolves, his timing is very interesting. This class takes place after Sirius slashed the Fat Lady, trying to get into the Common Room; it also takes place after Dumbledore shut down Snape's attempt to discuss Lupin's possible role in this, and Snape's introduction of the topic makes it clear that he has already brought this issue up before to the Headmaster:

"You remember the conversation we had, Headmaster, just before--ah--the start of term?" (pp.165-166, US paper).

Snape resorts to the students--through broad hints--only after he's addressed the issue upfront with Dumbledore. He takes matters into his own hands when he discovers that Dumbledore isn't willing to take his ideas under consideration, and he goes directly to the ones who need the protection. He knows firsthand that not knowing Lupin's true nature can be quite dangerous, plus--and more importantly, because obviously Snape knows the Potion will control Lupin (if Lupin would remember to take it, for heavens' sake!)--he really needs to get rid of Sirius' cohort. His behavior in the class makes it obvious that he wants more of them than just Hermione to figure it out...(really, they are a bunch of clueless dunderheads)....

At the end of PoA, he does it again, for the same reason: Dumbeldore won't see the truth. Snape knows Lupin lied; he trusts him, if possible, even less than he did before, and yet Dumbledore seems intent upon ignroing the obvious. So Snape removes the threat to the school and the Headmaster. Even though it means going against Dumbledore's direct order. In a way, it's yet another example of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore, in a backwards way...He's not out to get rid of Lupin just because he loathes the man--if he were, he would've started the school year as he ended it...or he'd have outed Lupin 15-20 years ago. Instead, Snape's actions toward Lupin fall at very key points in the novel, each time giving him a distinct reason for acting that way at that time--and the reason is not his own dislike of Lupin.

But the pattern I see in Snape throughout the books is that he says what he thinks; he doesn't withhold his thoughts or evade (as, for instance, Lupin does)--he tells the other characters exactly what he thinks. He may have a bias--but what he says is the truth as he sees it, and there's nothing underhanded about his approach to telling it. As I've said before, Occlumency stands out: he is a fountain of information, despite the fact that Harry keeps interrupting him; Snape gets annoyed with this, but he keeps answering the questions--until Harry reaches the topic about which he is not to know. At that point, Snape tells him it's none of his business and that subject is closed. He doesn't try to re-direct Harry or change the topic subtly (as Lupin does)--Snape, again, is totally upfront...no deception. of course, the irony is that Harry believes he's being deceptive, somehow misinterpreting Snape's honesty for deception....(dunderhead).

And--oh yeah--forgot to add to the list of unpleasantness for Snape to be returning to Hogwarts: starting his teaching career with stduents who knew him when he was bullied...(you'd think I wouldn't've forgotten that one!)....

People have asked whether SWM is really that, his worst memory. I believe it was SWM only in relation to Harry Potter. I am not saying that Snape put the memory in the pensieve for Potter to find and feel horrible about; that is too far-fetched. I believe it was something that Snape thought would negatively affect Potter's opinion of him should Potter ever know it.

The other memories in the pensieve must have been similar, then, i.e., specifically related to how Potter would perceive him, probably related to Potter's family. He might not have bothered to hide bad memories which had no context for Potter. He might have had a whole Death Eater's "To Do" list in his head, but if he felt Potter wouldn't find it significant, he might not have hidden it.I like how you're "in character," referring to Harry only as Potter. :lol:

It makes sense that Snape put memories which he specifically didn't want Harry to see in the Pensieve; however, it may not be so specific to Harry. When Snape threw Harry out of his office he warned Harry not to repeat the memories to anyone, implying that he wouldln't want any of the students knowing of SWM--perhaps not any of the teachers, either. If Dumbledore didn't know about SWM at that time (which I also believe), none of the other teachers would either. So when does it stop being the worst for Harry to see and become the worst for anyone to see? And if it's the worst for anyone to see, doesn't that mean it's really Snape's worst?
Thanks for taking the time to give such a considered answer.You're welcome.
I’d like to believe he’s changed.. bias.. but the canon is not reasonably convicing as of OotP.. I could make some arguments (eg: “to whom did the dog belong?”).. but they would just be ‘arguments’.The comment about the dog was debated quite a bit over on the "Deconstructing the Marauders" thread. Some were arguing that Snape said it to further make fun of Harry. I'd argued that he said it to prove to Harry that he was able to see flashes of his memory in response to Harry's question about whether or not he saw what Harry saw. You'd argue that it shows some kind of concern?
yeah, it was yours I was referring to chievrefueil .. I hope I didn’t mis-use it.. No, your point was well taken. I just wanted to clarify the situation.
Firstly, Snape wants the entire class (1) to recognize a werewolf if they see one (or (1b) to recognize that Lupin is a werewolf) and (2) to know how to kill a werewolf (incl. Lupin) if they should happen to run into one. Even if he’s protecting them, he must know that if some do learn the material, then (3) one of them might make Lupin’s secret known, ending Lupin’s tenure.. so he either doesn’t care one way or the other if this happens or he specifically wants Lupin fingered. Note that killing Lupin if he is a werewolf is not unreasonable, otherwise he will bite his prey, but is safe so long as he drinks his potion.

Does he single Hermione out as the one most likely to finger Lupin ? No !

He really does want the entire class to know this, not just Hermione. He ignores her wanting to answer his question on recognizing werewolves, and then stops her when she starts anyhow. Evidently, he wants them all actively learning the material, not blankly listening to Hermione explaining the details. On the other hand, it could also be that if she really already knows, then she has done nothing to date about reporting it, so the entire class needs to learn it for Lupin to be fingered. So whether ending Lupin’s tenure is incidental or specific, in either case it makes sense for Snape to do what he’s doing.

So far, I can’t yet draw a conclusion as to whether Lupin is out to save the children or to discredit/eliminate Lupin as a teacher, based only on what’s here.I agree that Snape wants the entire class to learn and that's why he ignores Hermione. I would have to come down on the side of Snape trying to eliminate Lupin as a teacher by having his students learn he is a werewolf--probably because he strongly believes that Lupin is helping Sirius get into the castle. I don't think Snape was doing it for the safety of the students because he knew that Lupin had been taking his wolfsbane potion all along, so there was no reason to think that Lupin would suddenly stop. . .unless Snape is just extremely cautious. He does bring the wolfsbane potion to Lupin when Lupin doesn't pick it up soon enough.

I wonder about Lupin's other classes, though. Surely Lupin had more than one class per day. Did he assign the other classes the same thing? Wouldn't the older students, especially NEWT level, already know how to recognize a werewolf? Plot holes? :huh:

Another thing I noticed while listening to PoA on CD was that Hermione was the one to deduce Lupin was a werewolf because she was the only one to do Snape's werewolf essay. When Lupin told the rest of the class they needn't do the essay, Hermione was disappointed because she'd already finished. :lol:
Now, Snape showed either a lot of maturity or DD devotion (my bet's on the latter) to make up a potion for Lupin every month. I don't think Snape had a lot of choice. If he didn't make the potion, Lupin would be very dangerous once a month.
I'm into PoA, ch 9 so far.. it's not so hard as it sounds, since my books are all flagged from the bottom for snape with his key phrases highlited in green..

*snip*

Anyway.. please have what I've got so far.. and let me know if I've left anything out.. (maybe there should be a resource thread ?):wow: That's very impressive! I'm never so organized. I started to compile every reference to Snape in the books, but ran out of time and have moved on to other projects.
When Snape conducts the class on werewolves, his timing is very interesting. This class takes place after Sirius slashed the Fat Lady, trying to get into the Common Room; it also takes place after Dumbledore shut down Snape's attempt to discuss Lupin's possible role in this, and Snape's introduction of the topic makes it clear that he has already brought this issue up before to the Headmaster:

"You remember the conversation we had, Headmaster, just before--ah--the start of term?" (pp.165-166, US paper).

Snape resorts to the students--through broad hints--only after he's addressed the issue upfront with Dumbledore. He takes matters into his own hands when he discovers that Dumbledore isn't willing to take his ideas under consideration, and he goes directly to the ones who need the protection. I think Snape's timing here is key, as you point out. He's not trying to get rid of Lupin for vengeance, but because he believes Lupin is helping Sirius. Getting rid of an old enemy is just icing on the cake.

..(snip).. Speaking of trust--I haven't yet found an instance in the books where Snape is lying ..(snip).. he seems to be incredibly straightforward.Subtle Science, I’ve noticed many posters just refer to you by the name Subtle, do you have a preference ? And do you mind being quoted ? I like the quotes so others have a specific idea of where I’m coming from, so I don’t have to ‘frame’ it each time. I like your style.. but I don’t think I’m up to it.

I’m trying to ‘get it right’ for myself in the scene where Snape takes over Lupin’s class. I agree that the apparent threat Sirius Black poses to both Harry and to Hogwarts is his primary motivation (perhaps only motivation, but again I need to satisfy myself on this). It is also brilliant the way you laid out the context of the scene and connected it to the whole – that really is kind of you.. seriously.. and appreciated !
Still inference is required to get to this understanding, I think (sometimes a fair bit of it, as your posts often illustrate), since unlike in SS there is no Quirrell/TR/V to spell out everything for us.. no more spoon feeding for us as well as Harry.

What I don’t understand in this scene is why Prof. Snape is dissing Prof. Lupin, behind his back, in front of the students. He makes four and a half criticisms of Lupin by name – lack of organization, grading leniency, failing to teach basics, not challenging them and letting them fall behind (this last gives the extra one half.. ha ha.. my count may still be off)
(a) It doesn’t help the students, possibly even harms their ability to learn from either teacher, and they certainly have been learning, even if ‘behind’,
(b) the students won’t and can’t get rid of Lupin for him, so it doesn’t further his goal of ending Lupin’s stay at Hogwarts,
( c) dissing Lupin like this isn’t going to discredit Lupin to Dumbledore,
(d) it’s unprofessional,
(e) Snape even makes it hypocritical when he says “And if I ever hear you criicize the way I teach a class again, you will be very sorry indeed”, because even though he’s not a student that’s what he himself is doing in front of them (bad example as well)
(f) it’s not going to help protect the students
I’m finding this point very curious.. very curious because if there is no rational explanation then something of extraordinary interest may be showing through here (at least interesting to me)..

..(snip).. Now, Snape showed either a lot of maturity or DD devotion (my bet's on the latter) to make up a potion for Lupin every month. But if I knew I could discredit and possibly sack someone who'd helped make life hell, I'd probably do it. Snape really is acting on human nature here.
Also, I think Snape would be quite willing to lie for the right objective. Take into consideration his spy work for the Order.I need to agree with Subtle wrt Snape’s ‘acting on human nature’ (ie: sacking someone because he has a grudge) here.. namely, I don't think he is.. my own reasons are hard to put into a short argument.. and in fact come from the couple thousand posts I’ve read on this thread (and earlier versions)..

But I’m open.. do you have any specific bits from PoA or other books which you think support the idea ?

I do wonder that he may be lying a little when he says that they are behind by not knowing about werewolves. Snape’s personal opinion notwithstanding, werewolves were a topic on the SWM DADA O.W.L. exam.. suggesting that it’s a fifth year topic.. and he’s teaching third years in this scene..



/\

I’m trying to ‘get it right’ for myself in the scene where Snape takes over Lupin’s class. I agree that the apparent threat Sirius Black poses to both Harry and to Hogwarts is his primary motivation (perhaps only motivation, but again I need to satisfy myself on this).

I'm not sure if it is his only motivation here--there are some hints that Snape acts also (not only, but also) because he hates Remus as a person, former Marauder. For example:

[Harry]"What's wrong with him?"
Snape's black eyes glittered.
"Nothing life-threatening," he said, looking as though he wished it were. "Five more points from Gryffindor, and if I have to ask you to sit down again, it will be fifty."

It might be just another bit of Harry filter, but if it is not, then it shows that Snape seems to be unhappy that Lupin will not suffer as much as he would have without Wolfsbane Potion (he would transform into a raging wolf that would bite itself because of the lack of prey). I doubt that Severus would wish Remus would suffer more just because he is afraid that Remus helps murderer!sirius.

I do wonder that he may be lying a little when he says that they are behind by not knowing about werewolves. Snape’s personal opinion notwithstanding, werewolves were a topic on the SWM DADA O.W.L. exam.. suggesting that it’s a fifth year topic.. and he’s teaching third years in this scene..

The werewolves were at the end of the book, so I think that there was nothing wrong that at that stage Lupin didn't manage to teach the students about lycanthropy. Also it is important to remember that it was Lockhart who taught the students year before, so they probably were behind, but because of Gilderoy.

As a side note: Snape, when tried show how bad a teacher Lupin was, made a mistake and thus showed that he wasn't as competent in the DADA field as he'd wish to, or that he intentionally said something wrong in order to accuse Remus of being a poor DADA teacher:

"Very poorly explained... That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found in Mongolia.... Professor Lupin gave this eight out of ten? I wouldn't have given it three...."

Acording to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them kappas are Japanese beasts.

*not quoting Subtle and Chiev in this post because I agree with everything, and have nothing else to add :tu:*

Honored to hear from you Norbertha !

Okay :lol: I'm just an ordinary girl! :blush:

Anyway.. please have what I've got so far.. and let me know if I've left anything out.. (maybe there should be a resource thread ?)

I'm impressed by your collection of quotes! :clap: A resouce thread is a really good idea. I think you should suggest it for the Wizengamot Administration Services (here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=2540208#post2540208). I saved your list on my computer for future reference, I hope you don't mind.

[Harry]"What's wrong with him?"
Snape's black eyes glittered.
"Nothing life-threatening," he said, looking as though he wished it were. "Five more points from Gryffindor, and if I have to ask you to sit down again, it will be fifty."

It might be just another bit of Harry filter, but if it is not, then it shows that Snape seems to be unhappy that Lupin will not suffer as much as he would have without Wolfsbane Potion (he would transform into a raging wolf that would bite itself because of the lack of prey). I doubt that Severus would wish Remus would suffer more just because he is afraid that Remus helps murderer!sirius.
Thanks for bringing up that quote, Mcpherson. :tu: There we have that glittering again. And again, I think he sees something beyond what's in the room: he sees the memory of the whomping willow incident. Also, when he says "nothing life threatening" - Harry thinks that Snape wishes it were, but I think that Snape says it in that way because the undertext* is "nothing life threatening to him, perhaps, but it was surely life threatening to me!"

*undertext - this seems not to be a word in English. Alisel, help! What I mean is what is not said, but can be read between the lines.

I like how you're "in character," referring to Harry only as Potter. :lol:

Yes, it irks me beyond all reason that people refer to Snape as Snape, even when they use first names for everyone else, especially when discussing SWM; it's always James, Sirius, Remus, Lily -- and Snape. Is it because Snape is now an adult and so his "kid" persona is carried forward to the present?

I always notice the inconsistency in use of names before I can concentrate on the content of a posting. It's one of those personality quirks, I guess.

The other professors often get the last-name treatment; however, there is no consistency. Dumbledore is always Dumbledore, and Hagrid is always Hagrid.

I noticed that Mcpherson often referred to Snape as Severus. I appreciated that; it made him seem more human and less of an immovable icon of evil.

What was that about power in the use of names, again? I do think they can affect the perception of a character.

What I don’t understand in this scene is why Prof. Snape is dissing Prof. Lupin, behind his back, in front of the students. He makes four and a half criticisms of Lupin by name – lack of organization, grading leniency, failing to teach basics, not challenging them and letting them fall behind (this last gives the extra one half.. ha ha.. my count may still be off)I was going to comment on this in my last post, but forgot. You're right, Snape is clearly enjoying an opportunity to criticize Lupin in front of the entire class--possibly to embarrass him? We know that Snape is prone to wanting revenge. Perhaps this is a bit of payback for Neville's boggart? :evil: (I do agree it's unprofessional.)
I do wonder that he may be lying a little when he says that they are behind by not knowing about werewolves. Snape’s personal opinion notwithstanding, werewolves were a topic on the SWM DADA O.W.L. exam.. suggesting that it’s a fifth year topic.. and he’s teaching third years in this scene..I don't think so. The class hasn't had a decent DADA lesson in the first two years, so it's not surprising (and not Lupin's fault) that they would be behind. It's true that werewolves were on the OWL exam, but wouldn't anything from the first 5 years be fair game for the OWLs?
undertext - this seems not to be a word in English. Alisel, help! What I mean is what is not said, but can be read between the lines.Since Alisel isn't here, you probably mean subtext. :)

Yes, it irks me beyond all reason that people refer to Snape as Snape, even when they use first names for everyone else, especially when discussing SWM; it's always James, Sirius, Remus, Lily -- and Snape. Is it because Snape is now an adult and so his "kid" persona is carried forward to the present?I see what you mean. I think I always refer to all the teachers/staff by their last names and drop the "professor." I usually keep the "madam" for Pince and Pomfrey, probably because it seems more part of their name than "professor" does for the others. I refer to all the non-teachers by their first names, except when they don't call themselves by that name; for example, Tonks. Fudge is another exception--perhaps the last name designation has to do with authority for me, as well. Since Lupin was first introduced as a professor, I never refer to him as Remus--always Lupin. So, in SWM, for me it's: James, Sirius, Snape, Peter, Lupin, and Lily.

"Subtext"--albeit one of the reasons I love English is that--go ahead, make up a word!! (a la Shakespeare)....

Snape's subbing for DADA (and how much must that burn him, that he has to help Lupin out?) also comes after the Boggart lesson... in which Lupin offered his opinion of Snape's teaching. Snape, in the DADA class, appears to be getting a little of his own back. Not the best way to handle it, but Lupin's Boggart class wasn't the brightest idea anybody ever had, either. Interesting that, of all the teachers available to sub, Snape is the one who gets the job to teach DADA...fascinating....

And as for the "nothing life-threatening": makes perfect sense--Snape hates Lupin. He may make the Potion in order to keep Lupin safe, but Lupin was one of the group that bullied Snape. He clearly has no use for the guy--and what use he has declines sharply throughout the school year. It goes along with the Potion making--and delivery. It's not because he has regard for Lupin--it's for the benefit of the school and the students and staff. As far as Snape is concerned, I think Lupin could go hang himself....

The dog comment...Harry wants proof that Snape saw his memories. Snape gives him a specific reference--but he manages to phrase it in what, for Snape, is a very diplomatic way. He doesn't comment about what Harry experiences; he chooses to ask about a specific memory in a very tangential way, which nevertheless proves he's seen the memories. And it stands out as the only personal question he's ever asked Harry.

And me: subtle's fine...the only abbreviation I'm not particularly fond of is SS, which has associations I'd rather not share. And as for the characters' names--I use Sirius and Lily, oddly enough--normally I wouldn't be that informal; Harry because Harry is the point of view and so it seems fitting. James in order to distinguish from Harry. All others--last names, as more befitting a literary analysis.

:) Just for the record: Sometimes I quote, sometimes I don't. It's nothing personal at all. Sometimes I only have a few minutes to respond to something I feel really strongly about. Sometimes it takes me so long to find canon to back up something that I just send in a post without responding to every post I'm interested in. The important thing is ~ I do read every post!

What I don’t understand in this scene is why Prof. Snape is dissing Prof. Lupin, behind his back, in front of the students. He makes four and a half criticisms of Lupin by name – lack of organization, grading leniency, failing to teach basics, not challenging them and letting them fall behind (this last gives the extra one half.. ha ha.. my count may still be off)
(a) It doesn’t help the students, possibly even harms their ability to learn from either teacher, and they certainly have been learning, even if ‘behind’,
(b) the students won’t and can’t get rid of Lupin for him, so it doesn’t further his goal of ending Lupin’s stay at Hogwarts,
( c) dissing Lupin like this isn’t going to discredit Lupin to Dumbledore,
(d) it’s unprofessional,
(e) Snape even makes it hypocritical when he says “And if I ever hear you criicize the way I teach a class again, you will be very sorry indeed”, because even though he’s not a student that’s what he himself is doing in front of them (bad example as well)
(f) it’s not going to help protect the students
I’m finding this point very curious.. very curious because if there is no rational explanation then something of extraordinary interest may be showing through here (at least interesting to me)..
Here is my opinion:
(g) Snape is irrational in that scene because of the situation. Anger and Fear and Resentment are irrational. Sirius is on the loose and his old friend Lupin-wolf is suddenly a teacher at Hogwarts, exactly where Harry Potter is at the moment. Snape has nearly been killed by Lupin-wolf as a boy, so he knows exactly what fate could await Harry, or any other child, who crosses a werewolf's path. Snape can take the potion to Lupin but he can't make him take it (as Lupin proves later) so Snape still doesn't feel safe about the situation. Dumbledore isn't listening, so the only way to "attack" Lupin is to discredit him as a teacher and try to clue the smarter kids in that Lupin is a werewolf.

Really, in the end, I believe Snape is justified in not trusting Lupin at all. Lupin knows about the passageways in and out of the castle, but he never tells anyone. Snape doesn't know about the Honeydukes tunnel till he catches Harry behind the hump-backed witch statue. Harry notices that no one is guarding any of the tunnels, and Snape wouldn't think to guard them because he has no way of knowing about the Marauder's Map and Sirius's familiarity with ways into the castle. But the fact is, Lupin does know, yet he doesn't alert anyone. Is he hoping to catch Sirius himself?
I'm not sure if it is his only motivation here--there are some hints that Snape acts also (not only, but also) because he hates Remus as a person, former Marauder. For example:

[Harry]"What's wrong with him?"
Snape's black eyes glittered.
"Nothing life-threatening," he said, looking as though he wished it were. "Five more points from Gryffindor, and if I have to ask you to sit down again, it will be fifty."
"Very poorly explained... That is incorrect, the kappa is more commonly found in Mongolia.... Professor Lupin gave this eight out of ten? I wouldn't have given it three...."

Acording to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them kappas are Japanese beasts.
When I read that passage, which is a very good example of Snape's irrationality, it seems that Snape is just throwing out one criticism after another even if it doesn't make sense. He's throwing things at the wall to see what sticks.
Thanks for bringing up that quote, Mcpherson. There we have that glittering again. And again, I think he sees something beyond what's in the room: he sees the memory of the whomping willow incident. Also, when he says "nothing life threatening" - Harry thinks that Snape wishes it were, but I think that Snape says it in that way because the undertext* is "nothing life threatening to him, perhaps, but it was surely life threatening to me!"

*undertext - this seems not to be a word in English. Alisel, help! What I mean is what is not said, but can be read between the lines.
I like the word "undertext." It works for me! :)

"Nothing Life Threatening," is really a pun, isn't it? That Snape! :evil: The condition doesn't threaten Lupin's life, it's true, but it Lupin becomes the threat himself, lol. :p

Yes, it irks me beyond all reason that people refer to Snape as Snape, even when they use first names for everyone else, especially when discussing SWM; it's always James, Sirius, Remus, Lily -- and Snape. Is it because Snape is now an adult and so his "kid" persona is carried forward to the present?

I always notice the inconsistency in use of names before I can concentrate on the content of a posting. It's one of those personality quirks, I guess.

The other professors often get the last-name treatment; however, there is no consistency. Dumbledore is always Dumbledore, and Hagrid is always Hagrid.
Did you notice my use of "Lupin" and "Dumbledore"? :evil: I always call Lupin by his last name. Sirius is different because there are so many other "Blacks." People might get confused and think I am referring to Regulus, or one of the Black sisters.

And you can't really just say "Potter" for James, because everyone with think you mean Harry. ;)
I noticed that Mcpherson often referred to Snape as Severus. I appreciated that; it made him seem more human and less of an immovable icon of evil.

What was that about power in the use of names, again? I do think they can affect the perception of a character.
I just don't feel as if I'm on a first name basis with Snape, LOL. But every now and then, I do think of him as "Severus." For instance, when writing about SWM, I sometimes call him "Young Severus."

What was that about power in the use of names, again? I do think they can affect the perception of a character.

*Makes a mental note to change blog icon title from "Snapeykins" to "Potions Master"* /silliness :angel:

The comment about the dog was debated quite a bit over on the "Deconstructing the Marauders" thread. Some were arguing that Snape said it to further make fun of Harry. I'd argued that he said it to prove to Harry that he was able to see flashes of his memory in response to Harry's question about whether or not he saw what Harry saw. You'd argue that it shows some kind of concern?Chievrefueil, I don’t know how I missed your post earlier.. glad I caught it.

“Did you see everything I saw?” Harry asked, unsure whether he wanted to hear the answer.
“Flashes of it,” said Snape, his lip culing. “To whom did the dog belong?”
“My Aunt Marge,” Harry muttered, hating Snape. (OotP, ch 24)OK .. but only because you’ve asked .. TRUST ..

I think Snape is more settled in the Occlumency chapter. I’m pretty sure I can see shifts in Snape’s underlying emotional states over the books, but I’m not ready to argue for it, and in Occlumency Snape has settled down.. more silence, as opposed to suppressed quiet.

I think he has a different attitude and openness going into that scene. The end of GoF forced it upon him from every direction.. at the very least he has been re-evaluating.. possibly starting to acually change.. slowly.. (I haven’t forgotten the criteria for change we spoke of earlier, but not ready to really ‘argue’) I think that in Occlumency Snape was being open towards Harry, taking a fresh look at him..

I enjoyed the way he and Harry just talked (Harry’s interruptions and disrespect aside).. I’ve only ever seen Dumbledore be that patient and put up with so much.. or maybe Lupin.

I also noticed that Snape knew all about Harry’s dreams.. the implication being that Dumbledore related everything.. that trust is there, present in the interaction. It didn’t register with Harry, at least not consciously. I also like to believe that Snape and Dumbledore are friends.. they can be open with one another. they can talk, they can trust each other. Friends.

When Snape asks “To whom did the dog belong?” I think he is simply curious. It’s just that simple. He’s asking precisely because he wants to know. It does happen to illustrate that he saw something specific to Harry, and he may have wanted to illustrate in his answer, but I like to believe Snape, at that momement.. wanted to know.. he was curious.. and that is why he asked that particular question.

Notice also that Harry’s question just before does not include ‘sir’ ! In fact, from that moment on Harry almost invariably drops the ‘sir’, and Snape does not complain ! I think that is unbelievable. Check it out for yourself.. because it's so cool..

I don’t know if it’s true, but I like to believe that Snape was offering a relationship.. I won’t say friendship.. but just an offer of openness and a little trust..
I wonder about Lupin's other classes, though. Surely Lupin had more than one class per day. Did he assign the other classes the same thing? Wouldn't the older students, especially NEWT level, already know how to recognize a werewolf? Plot holes?Either a plot hole, or quite a lot of Dunderheads, or very poor teachers (Lupin may indeed be holding back on classes for years 5 and up.. ha, ha..


I'm not sure if it is his only motivation here--there are some hints that Snape acts also (not only, but also) because he hates Remus as a person, former Marauder. For example:
[Harry]"What's wrong with him?"
Snape's black eyes glittered.
"Nothing life-threatening," he said, looking as though he wished it were. "Five more points from Gryffindor, and if I have to ask you to sit down again, it will be fifty."It might be just another bit of Harry filter, but if it is not, then it shows that Snape seems to be unhappy that Lupin will not suffer as much as he would have without Wolfsbane Potion (he would transform into a raging wolf that would bite itself because of the lack of prey). I doubt that Severus would wish Remus would suffer more just because he is afraid that Remus helps murderer!sirius.I don’t think I can see evidence of that in his actions though.. I certainly don’t doubt he dislikes him, not in the face of “So that’s why Snape doesn’t like you (ie: Lupin),” said Harry slowly, “because he thought you were in on the joke?”
“That’s right,” sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin.
Severus Snape was pulling off the invisibility cloak.. (PoA, end of ch 18)But he doesn’t seem to ACT on it.. the printed page doesn't prove it.. you have to apply your own filter, ha, ha..

The werewolves were at the end of the book, so I think that there was nothing wrong that at that stage Lupin didn't manage to teach the students about lycanthropy.So you too think it was something of a lie ?



/\

I forgot to say to Norbertha ~ thanks for the Happy 4th!http://bestsmileys.com/usa1/19.gif

"Subtext"--albeit one of the reasons I love English is that--go ahead, make up a word!! (a la Shakespeare)....
I just ate a huge picnic lunch (potato salad, bar-b-que, and blue jello with blueberries and whipped cream, lol). So my overfed mind couldn't come up with the word "subtext" earlier. :) Thank you and Chiev for remembering the right word, lol, since my lizard brain is trying to fall asleep right now.

Snape's subbing for DADA (and how much must that burn him, that he has to help Lupin out?) also comes after the Boggart lesson... in which Lupin offered his opinion of Snape's teaching. Snape, in the DADA class, appears to be getting a little of his own back. Not the best way to handle it, but Lupin's Boggart class wasn't the brightest idea anybody ever had, either. Interesting that, of all the teachers available to sub, Snape is the one who gets the job to teach DADA...fascinating....
Yes, knowing Snape's feelings, it is remarkable that Dumbledore would let him take over class for the day, lol.
The dog comment...Harry wants proof that Snape saw his memories. Snape gives him a specific reference--but he manages to phrase it in what, for Snape, is a very diplomatic way. He doesn't comment about what Harry experiences; he chooses to ask about a specific memory in a very tangential way, which nevertheless proves he's seen the memories. And it stands out as the only personal question he's ever asked Harry.
If Snape had really wanted to be "nasty," he would have made a snide remark about "finding love under the mistletoe," or Harry's jealousy of Dudley. The part about Occlumency that still seems amazing to me isn't just that JKR let Snape see Harry's memories, but that he sees them over and over again. The proof of that comes later when Harry says something like, "You mean the time my cousin made me stand in the toilet?" That is funny, but it isn't. Snape is fully aware of what Harry's life has been like till Hogwarts, and it isn't pretty.
And me: subtle's fine...the only abbreviation I'm not particularly fond of is SS, which has associations I'd rather not share. And as for the characters' names--I use Sirius and Lily, oddly enough--normally I wouldn't be that informal; Harry because Harry is the point of view and so it seems fitting. James in order to distinguish from Harry. All others--last names, as more befitting a literary analysis.
I always think of Lily by her first name, and I never realized that before. I would never call her "Mrs. Potter." :p

In Occlumency, I don't think we see a different Snape, or a changing Snape--I think we see Snape (removing Harry's opinions) as he pretty much is...Not to go all autobiographical again, but...I just waved goodbye to a group of seniors who had me in the 7th and 9th grade as well as 12th. Now, I know that some of them would tell you I changed over the course of those years...but, no, I didn't. Perhaps it's a scary concept, but I basicially taught 7th grade as I do AP 12th...the difference lies entirely in the students' perception. I'm just as obnoxious and demanding in 12th grade as I am in 7th; it's the perception that's changed.

In addition, in Occlumency, Snape is one-on-one. There's no need to perform for the Slytherins--or anyone else. He just has to teach advanced magic to Harry. I don't see any friendship there, but I do see respect: Snape fully expects Harry to be able to perform Occlumency. He also gives Harry respect when he allows Harry to use a wand and any spell he deems necessary--and there is trust in that, as well. I mean--according to Snape's rules, AK isn't out of the question! There is also trust in that the two of them will be venturing into each other's minds. Some people see Snape's rather cold attitude--get up and do it again--as rather cold, but I see it as both professional and helpful--it's less embarrassing to have Snape--apparently--disregard the personal recollections as they work. He doesn't react--except when Harry demands it (the dog) and when the vision is too emotionally loaded (Cedric and the Potters).

I don't see Snape building a relationship in Occlumency with Harry--he's just doing his job: he's teaching. If there's information about a relationship, it's between Snape and Dumbledore: that Snape agreed to do this and does it sincerely.

That Snape accuses Lupin of not covering the topic of werewolves yet...Not a lie. Snape comes to that class with an agenda that has nothing to do with DADA and everything to do with exposing Lupin in order to rid the school of a traitor--and, as I said before, getting his own back at Lupin in equal measure for that Boggart lesson. The whole point is to get the students to look at the book and make the connection...dunderheads...

And Lupin's one class...highly entertaining to a teacher is the portrayal of teaching in books, films, etc. Nobody on the planet wants to see an actual day of teaching (and here I am, pulling another essay off the pile--yes, yes...I'm about to read it...There I go!...Or--yes! That is an objective case pronoun serving as the object of the action verb phrase--You got it!!!!...Not the stuff of high drama............). The lone DADA class makes me think of Dead Poets' Society: what exactly did Robin Williams' character do for the rest of the day?--one class daily, and precisely one practice session with the team. Hope he didn't wear himself out.....At least JKR has the excuse that Harry is only enrolled in one class of Lupin's and the books are his point of view.

And as for the "nothing life-threatening": makes perfect sense--Snape hates Lupin. He may make the Potion in order to keep Lupin safe, but Lupin was one of the group that bullied Snape. He clearly has no use for the guy--and what use he has declines sharply throughout the school year. It goes along with the Potion making--and delivery. It's not because he has regard for Lupin--it's for the benefit of the school and the students and staff. As far as Snape is concerned, I think Lupin could go hang himself....Has your opinion on this changed? I thought I remembered you citing Snape bringing Lupin the potion as a sign of cordial relations between the two. That coupled with Lupin repeatedly calling Snape "Severus." Am I remembering incorrectly?
I just don't feel as if I'm on a first name basis with Snape, LOL. Me neither. :lol:
“Did you see everything I saw?” Harry asked, unsure whether he wanted to hear the answer.
“Flashes of it,” said Snape, his lip culing. “To whom did the dog belong?”
“My Aunt Marge,” Harry muttered, hating Snape. (OotP, ch 24)

OK .. but only because you’ve asked .. TRUST ..I'm not sure how you're relating this passage to trust?
I think that in Occlumency Snape was being open towards Harry, taking a fresh look at him..

I enjoyed the way he and Harry just talked (Harry’s interruptions and disrespect aside).. I’ve only ever seen Dumbledore be that patient and put up with so much.. or maybe Lupin. Yes, I agree that Snape was being more open with Harry there, but not about himself. I think that Snape reveals 2 things about himself to Harry, one of which Harry ignores. The first is the comment about those who wear their hearts on their sleeves being easy prey for Voldemort. I think Snape is describing his own experience, although he doesn't explicitly say so. The other is his response to Harry's outburst about his "job" with the Order.

As is typical for Snape, I think that in the first lesson he becomes tired of Harry's constant interruptions and becomes more closed.I also noticed that Snape knew all about Harry’s dreams.. the implication being that Dumbledore related everything.. that trust is there, present in the interaction. It didn’t register with Harry, at least not consciously. I also like to believe that Snape and Dumbledore are friends.. they can be open with one another. they can talk, they can trust each other. Friends.I also agree that Snape and Dumbledore have a close relationship--paternal/filial, I would say. Snape is not entirely open even with Dumbledore, though--especially if it's true, as I suspect, that Dumbledore didn't know about SWM until Snape provided an explanation for discontinuing Occlumency. That Dumbledore is open with Snape doesn't change how Snape is, other than making it clear that Snape has someone to rely on when he is ready to open up.
Notice also that Harry’s question just before does not include ‘sir’ ! In fact, from that moment on Harry almost invariably drops the ‘sir’, and Snape does not complain ! I think that is unbelievable. Check it out for yourself.. because it's so cool..Really? That's very interesting! :tu:
The proof of that comes later when Harry says something like, "You mean the time my cousin made me stand in the toilet?" That is funny, but it isn't. Snape is fully aware of what Harry's life has been like till Hogwarts, and it isn't pretty. This is the reason that it's nearly inconceivable that Snape's attitude toward Harry hasn't/won't change. Snape always thought of Harry as an arrogant, pampered prince. Finding out it's not true must have some impact on his perception of Harry.

One thing that just struck me is that, after Occlumency lessons begin, Snape doesn't draw any comparison between Harry & James. He still thinks Harry is arrogant (because Harry has earned that perception from Snape on his own), but he doesn't tell Harry how like his father he is--not even after he finds Harry in the Pensieve; however he must still believe that Harry might be enough like James that he is concerned Harry would approve of James's behavior in SWM. (Perhaps he would think that of almost anyone--after all, there was a whole crowd of people who did nothing. . .)

Originally Posted by Chievrefueil
I wonder about Lupin's other classes, though. Surely Lupin had more than one class per day. Did he assign the other classes the same thing? Wouldn't the older students, especially NEWT level, already know how to recognize a werewolf? Plot holes?

Actually, you'll note that Snape refers to never having encountered a third year class that couldn't recognize a werewolf. So I think he planned his little off-topic lesson especially for that class, especially because that class liked Lupin so much, and he wanted to warn them (particularly Harry, maybe he was hoping he'd do the work or Hermione would clue him in).

Another topic: It seems I have started a small-scale riot with my infinite whining. I didn't mean for everyone to start quoting me out of pity, or justifying why they don't quote. In fact, I've been known to simply refer to someone, or even refer to their post without naming them. But I will quote people on occasion, and if I don't name everyone who made a point, it's not out of spite, it's because I have issues with quoting multiple people, and often eighteen people will discuss the same thing.

Another another point: I refer to Snape as Snape, but as a title of respect and familiarity. I don't think that refering to someone with their last name only is disrespectful, unless you intend it to be. I've had several teachers who everyone liked, that we called by their last names. Besides, Severus sounds too...severe. :lol:

Actually, you'll note that Snape refers to never having encountered a third year class that couldn't recognize a werewolf. So I think he planned his little off-topic lesson especially for that class, especially because that class liked Lupin so much, and he wanted to warn them (particularly Harry, maybe he was hoping he'd do the work or Hermione would clue him in).Fair point. And, perhaps classes for the other houses, not having a Hermione, were assigned a werewolf essay that no one wrote.

I don't think my opinion of Snape and Lupin's interaction has changed... : )

Snape delivers the Potion to Lupin because it's the right thing to do--not because he likes Lupin and wants to spare him a trip to the dungeons...He is cordial to Lupin...albeit coldly (that turns out to be an etomological contradiction, I believe). Snape isn't friendly; he's just courteous. Lupin is trying very hard, with the emphasis on Snape's first name and the gratitude. But there's no real friendliness there: Snape doesn't trust Lupin and never has; at that point, he's playing nice because Dad said to. But it isn't that he forgives Lupin or wants to mend fences...or even buys that "Severus" bit.

A bit related: Harry frequently disposes with the "Sir" and "Pofessor" during *** Occlumency lessons--more often than not, he doesn't use the titles. Snape seems to be establishing the ground rules at first, but the enforcement is erratic as they work...

And Dumbledore/Snape--I agreee completely, Chievrefueil: If Snape opens up to anyone, it's Dumbledore, but I think he remains on guard even with Dumbledore. However, because Dumbledore is a person who is both open and knows when to keep his mouth shut, I think he is the most likely person in whom Snape would confide. The longer Dumbledore, for instance, keeps the reason why he trusts Snape to himself, the more that would encourage Snape to trust him....

It makes sense that Snape put memories which he specifically didn't want Harry to see in the Pensieve; however, it may not be so specific to Harry. When Snape threw Harry out of his office he warned Harry not to repeat the memories to anyone, implying that he wouldln't want any of the students knowing of SWM--perhaps not any of the teachers, either. If Dumbledore didn't know about SWM at that time (which I also believe), none of the other teachers would either. So when does it stop being the worst for Harry to see and become the worst for anyone to see? And if it's the worst for anyone to see, doesn't that mean it's really Snape's worst?Good point about Snape not wanting anyone to know about his worst memory. Perhaps another reason for not wanting Harry to divulge this memory is that he as house leader has a reputation to up hold and any loss of this may lead to his own house not taking him seriously. I wonder whether Snape did not want the Malfoys hearing of this memory, could there be anything in this that might make Lucious suspicious of Snape because no doubt Draco would tell his father about such a stunt.



[Harry]"What's wrong with him?"
Snape's black eyes glittered.
"Nothing life-threatening," he said, looking as though he wished it were. "Five more points from Gryffindor, and if I have to ask you to sit down again, it will be fifty."

It might be just another bit of Harry filter, but if it is not, then it shows that Snape seems to be unhappy that Lupin will not suffer as much as he would have without Wolfsbane Potion (he would transform into a raging wolf that would bite itself because of the lack of prey). I doubt that Severus would wish Remus would suffer more just because he is afraid that Remus helps murderer!sirius.

Thanks for bringing up that quote, Mcpherson. There we have that glittering again. And again, I think he sees something beyond what's in the room: he sees the memory of the whomping willow incident. Also, when he says "nothing life threatening" - Harry thinks that Snape wishes it were, but I think that Snape says it in that way because the undertext* is "nothing life threatening to him, perhaps, but it was surely life threatening to me!"I never thought about it in that context but that would fit perfectly with not only his facial expression but perhaps with the punishment of 5 points for being nosy like Snape was as a child.

Again Snape is in this context protecting the children by providing the potion for Lupin to take and in a way protecting Lupin from himself a little by easing his suffering. These are not the actions of a wizard full of hatred against students or order members and also another sign of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore by making that Wolfsbane potion.

Good point about Snape not wanting anyone to know about his worst memory. Perhaps another reason for not wanting Harry to divulge this memory is that he as house leader has a reputation to up hold and any loss of this may lead to his own house not taking him seriously. I wonder whether Snape did not want the Malfoys hearing of this memory, could there be anything in this that might make Lucious suspicious of Snape because no doubt Draco would tell his father about such a stunt.It seems like Lucius would be fully aware of Snape's past--they were, presumably, in the same social circle just after Hogwarts, along with others who attended school with them. Now, the idea of Draco finding out about it is quite interesting. I'd have to say it would greatly affect Draco's view of Snape. I wonder how important Draco running off at the mouth is to Snape's spy work?

It might be just another bit of Harry filter, but if it is not, then it shows that Snape seems to be unhappy that Lupin will not suffer as much as he would have without Wolfsbane Potion
Even with the Harry filter, it doesn't sound like he wants Lupin in pain, more like he is disappointed that Lupin isn't unhealthy enough to get out of his hair (or dead :p).

Yes, it irks me beyond all reason that people refer to Snape as Snape, even when they use first names for everyone else, especially when discussing SWM; it's always James, Sirius, Remus, Lily -- and Snape. Is it because Snape is now an adult and so his "kid" persona is carried forward to the present?
I refer to characters as they are referred to in the books. So Snape, Lupin, Dumbledore, Filch, Flitwick, etc. Or Harry, Hermione, Sirius, Ron, Percy, etc.

Now, I know that some of them would tell you I changed over the course of those years...but, no, I didn't. Perhaps it's a scary concept, but I basicially taught 7th grade as I do AP 12th...the difference lies entirely in the students' perception. I'm just as obnoxious and demanding in 12th grade as I am in 7th; it's the perception that's changed.
:lol:
With the occlumency lessons, it is the first time that Harry has actually interacted on a one-to-one basis with Snape. This is bound to be different than when they are in a normal classroom setting.

Yes, it irks me beyond all reason that people refer to Snape as Snape, even when they use first names for everyone else, especially when discussing SWM; it's always James, Sirius, Remus, Lily -- and Snape. Is it because Snape is now an adult and so his "kid" persona is carried forward to the present?
I just don't feel as if I'm on a first name basis with Snape, LOL. But every now and then, I do think of him as "Severus." For instance, when writing about SWM, I sometimes call him "Young Severus."

I think I call him "Severus" when I mean the young Severus Snape and "Snape" when I mean the adult Severus Snape. But I'm not sure how consistent I am.

And, as Clkginny says, I think most fans refer to them as they are referred to in the books - which is they way Harry thinks of them.


Since Alisel isn't here, you probably mean subtext.

Subtext! That's what I meant indeed. Thank you, Chiev and Subtle. And Silver - perhaps we could list undertext as a synonym for subtext next time we edit a dictionary ... :p

I have an English-English dictionary, you see, but no Norwegian-English dictionary. So I can look up words that I'm unsure of, but only as long as I have some idea about where to look ... :lol:

And me: subtle's fine...the only abbreviation I'm not particularly fond of is SS, which has associations I'd rather not share.
Other than "Severus Snape", I presume! :lol: (I think know what you mean).

"Nothing Life Threatening," is really a pun, isn't it? That Snape! The condition doesn't threaten Lupin's life, it's true, but it Lupin becomes the threat himself, lol.

:rotfl: Snapeykins is being unintentionally funny!

I think there's a great deal of bitterness in his "nothing life threatening" (subtext: for him).

I never thought about it in that context but that would fit perfectly with not only his facial expression but perhaps with the punishment of 5 points for being nosy like Snape was as a child.

Yes, that's a good point. He deducts points for being nosy. Why does he do that if he wants them to find out that Lupin is a werewolf? Maybe because he realises he can't simply tell them, he wants them to guess, to be able to plead not guilty of outing Lupin if Dumbledore should ask later. Perhaps he also deducts point to get the kids to shut up and not ask about the "nothing life threatening" if the whomping willow incident is what is replaying in his mind right then.

And: Happy 700th day anniversary, Silver! :clap:

....The class hasn't had a decent DADA lesson in the first two years, so it's not surprising (and not Lupin's fault) that they would be behind. Just an FYI, there's nothing to imply that Quirrel was incompetent, especially as that wasn't his first year teaching. For Hagrid to have noticed a difference in him, Quirrel must have taught the previous year and for a year before his sabbatical. However, obviously Lockhart was useless.
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About names, I tend to call him Snape as an adult but Severus when talking about his youth - and I'll admit to being guilty of going back and forth between Remus & Lupin - I THINK I use Lupin usually, but I tend to feel a bit harsh doing so when posting on the Remus Lupin thread where everyone seems to calls him Remus. But calling James and Sirius by their last names can be confusing since they could also refer to Harry or Regulus (who I think will be important in the future, whether he's dead or alive, in hiding)

It's interesting that we're beginning to discuss the use of first or last names as it waqs something I noticed while reading Atmavan's handy quotings (THANKS!!!). We've discussed the only times Snape calls Harry by anything other than Potter (and it's never JUST Harry then, but his full name), but there seems to be some thoughts that by only calling Harry "Potter' it is somehow either insulting or because Snape's confusing Harry with James.

But if we look at what Atmavan has so nicely typed out for us, we see that he ALWAYS uses just the last name for students. It's even Malfoy, not Draco. And outside of the dueling scene none (including Malfoy) even get the 'Mr.' in front. Interestingly enough Hermione is not 'Granger' but 'Miss Granger', altho' that may be some kind of respect for females as he also refers to Millicent as Miss Bulstrode. Unfortunately, we can't tell as that's part of the dueling scene. I wonder why he would call the boys by the more formal Mr. in that scene - is it because of the presence of another adult? And does he refer to all the girls as Miss in class or is it only Hermione? Has he ever called Draco by his first name that we've seen?

This is also something Draco does - he always calls the trio by their last names (altho' he doesn't bother with the 'Miss' for Hermione) and it seems to be taken as an insult, but doesn't he also refer to his 'sidekicks' as just Goyle and Crabbe? This is going to need a look-see. I'm beginning to think it might be an 'old family' thing or at least Slytherin. When Draco took Neville's Rememberall in that first flying lesson, Pansy said something to Parvati Patil - using HER fist name, but referred to Hermione as Granger. There was a time when it would be insulting to use someone's first name before you're asked to use it (given permission) It would figure that JKR might use an old way of speaking for the 'old blood'. And it's interesting that we consider using the last name only as somewhat rude, when 100 yrs ago the opposite was true unless you were very close friends

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Also about the fact that Snape brews Wolfbane Potion for Lupin - I think we need to factor in more than just he does it because DD tells him to do so. I think a great deal of the reason he brought the potion to Lupin when Lupin hadn't come to get it was that he wanted to be certain - actually SEE that it was taken, partially because it made him feel safer. It's not like Lupin's still going to the Shack, he's in the castle, where if he hasn't taken the potion there are a couple of 100 people for a tasty snack and Snape is a protective sort

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One thing that does bother me tho' is that DD supposedly won't give Snape the DADA position because it would somehow be dangerous for him (or so we think?) and yet subbing the class isn't. So, it isn't really akin to the One drink/alcoholic parallel as has been discussed before

Just an FYI, there's nothing to imply that Quirrel was incompetent, especially as that wasn't his first year teaching. For Hagrid to have noticed a difference in him, Quirrel must have taught the previous year and for a year before his sabbatical. However, obviously Lockhart was useless. The students feel he's pretty useless, though:The class everyone had really been looking forward to was Defense Against the Dark Arts, but Quirrell's lessons turned out to be a bit of a joke. His classroom smelled strongly of garlic, which everyone said was to ward off a vampire he'd met in Romania and was afraid would be coming back to get him one of these days. His turban, he told them, had been given to him by an African prince as a thank-you for getting rid of a troublesome zombie, but they weren't sure they believed this story. For one thing, when Seamus Finnigan asked eagerly to hear how Quirrell had fought off the zombie, Quirrell went pink and started talking about the weather. . .

Also, all the children later seem to agree that Lupin is the best DADA teacher they've had up to that time.

This is also something Draco does - he always calls the trio by their last names (altho' he doesn't bother with the 'Miss' for Hermione) and it seems to be taken as an insult, but doesn't he also refer to his 'sidekicks' as just Goyle and Crabbe? This is going to need a look-see. I'm beginning to think it might be an 'old family' thing or at least Slytherin.

Just want to point out that in SWM, Lily is referred to repeatedly as "Evans" by James. Must be love.

Edit: She calls him "Potter," too, when she isn't calling him other things.

I wandered back to the book--and the five extra points Snape takes off is because Harry hasn't sat down yet:

"....Sit down."
But Harry didn't move.
"Where's Professor Lupin?" he said.
"He says he is feeling too ill to teach today," said Snape with a twisted smile.
"I believe I told you to sit down?"
But Harry stayed where he was.
"What's wrong with him?"
Snape's black eyes glittered..... (p.170, PoA, US paper).

In the context of the scene, Snape is resorting to a further points deduction because Harry has ignored two orders to sit down (after having arrived late to class)--and he threatens 50 if he has to go to a third request.

Names...I guess I just can't call Snape "Severus" unless and until I get his invitation to do so! : )

Snape himself only calls two people by their first names in all five books: Karkaroff and Draco Malfoy. He is utterly consistent--and terribly old-fashioned--in his reference to the boys by their last names and the girls by the title "Miss." His fellow faculty either are called by their last names or their titles--titles being reserved for Dumbledore and McGonagall. He responds to Dumbledore's use of "Severus" by calling him "Professor" or "Headmaster"; occasionally, he speaks of Dumbledore to others by last name only, but I don't think he ever directly addresses him with anything other than his titles--not entirely sure of that (and I mean last name--never, ever does the name "Albus" pass his lips). If he does, it's rare...and probably in PoA! Altogether, the impression JKR gives through this is of someone who is extremely formal and reserved: he adheres strictly to formal social conventions.

His use of Harry's last name follows his usage in general of boys' last names--but it's interesting that, when he does acknowledge Harry's first name, it comes as a package deal: he's clearly using Harry's full name as a label, not indicating any intimacy, as it does when he says "Igor" and "Draco." And "Potter" seems reserved exclusively for Harry: James is "your father."

....In the context of the scene, Snape is resorting to a further points deduction because Harry has ignored two orders to sit down (after having arrived late to class)--and he threatens 50 if he has to go to a third request.Considering Harry's attitude, that 5 points seems rather small doesn't it?

Snape himself only calls two people by their first names in all five books: Karkaroff and Draco Malfoy.Do you remember when Snape calls Draco by his first name. I remember Karkaroff and I'm pretty sure that Snape calls the Malfoy elder Lucuis, but I was surprised to see Draco called just Malfoy in class and now I question the situations when Snape uses Draco.

Snape has already deducted 10 points for Harry's being ten minutes late; the five extra for remaining standing seems right in line. He nails Gryffinodr another five in the next pages, for Hermione's interrupting him with her "know-it-all" answers.

Snape calls Draco by his first name in OotP, right before SWM, when Draco arrives to report that Montague has been found:

"It's all right, Draco," said Snape, lowering his wand. "Potter is here for a little Remedial Potions" ....

"Well, Draco, what is it?" asked Snape (p. 638, US hardcover).

Now the one I don't recall is Snape's calling Malfoy Senior by his first name: where's that? Must...hunt...it...down....(I scoured the books once looking for Snape's use of names, as I find this to be a fascinating bit of character development). ETA--I know he calls Malfoy by his full name, when Sirius brings it up in the kitchen at 12GP: Sirius calls him Lucius Malfoy, and Snape repeats the full name when he returns fire...I just can't recall a scene in which Snape only speaks of "Lucius." Terriers?

Snape calls Draco by his first name in OotP, right before SWM, when Draco arrives to report that Montague has been found

This suggests a couple of things to me:

1) Perhaps Snape calls students in his house by their first names in more non-public settings.

2) Perhaps it is the trauma of the missing Montague that is causing Snape to be a little more sensitive.

Generally, I think Snape's use of last names and formal titles is a distancing mechanism, but there may be extenuating circumstances which caused him to use "Draco" in this instance.

I've just got to post this link here too, I found it an hour ago, following links from a link that Thestralgrin provided, and it's something that I've been looking for for years. It's on topic, since lots of it applies to Snape ... keywords: anger and bitterness ...
Link: here (http://www.kidscape.org.uk/assets/downloads/kslongtermeffects.pdf)

I've just got to post this link here too, I found it an hour ago, following links from a link that Thestralgrin provided, and it's something that I've been looking for for years. It's on topic, since lots of it applies to Snape ... keywords: anger and bitterness ...
Link: here (http://www.kidscape.org.uk/assets/downloads/kslongtermeffects.pdf)

I just read this and it made me feel sick. I feel guilty for having escaped bullying. Poor Snape :(

Edit: After reading that, I wonder if Snape ever tried to commit suicide? What do you think?

I've printed it out; I'll be making it available at school when we go back in August.

Amazing, isn't it, how thoroughly JKR has hit the characterization of Snape (and Sirius...). Not only the anger and bitterness, but the information about not trusting others and relating better to older people.

And Silver - perhaps we could list undertext as a synonym for subtext next time we edit a dictionary ...
Norbertha, someone may ask you to edit a dictionary, but the day someone asks me to edit a dictionary will be a cold day in . . . July.:lol:
Names...I guess I just can't call Snape "Severus" unless and until I get his invitation to do so! : )
Of course not! It wouldn't be proper or dignified!
Now the one I don't recall is Snape's calling Malfoy Senior by his first name: where's that? Must...hunt...it...down....(I scoured the books once looking for Snape's use of names, as I find this to be a fascinating bit of character development). ETA--I know he calls Malfoy by his full name, when Sirius brings it up in the kitchen at 12GP: Sirius calls him Lucius Malfoy, and Snape repeats the full name when he returns fire...I just can't recall a scene in which Snape only speaks of "Lucius." Terriers?
I'm not sure, but I believe that unlike the movie, Snape never has a scene with Lucius, but Umbridge does say that Lucius "speaks highly" of Snape. I've always thought Malfoy might have received some sort of "flattering" note about Draco, and that might have won the Malfoys over.
Generally, I think Snape's use of last names and formal titles is a distancing mechanism, but there may be extenuating circumstances which caused him to use "Draco" in this instance.
I think he used "Draco" in order to sound more friendly/fatherly and deflect Draco's attention from Harry as fast as possible, since they are lying about "remedial potions." Notice how fast he gets Draco out of there!
I've just got to post this link here too, I found it an hour ago, following links from a link that Thestralgrin provided, and it's something that I've been looking for for years. It's on topic, since lots of it applies to Snape ... keywords: anger and bitterness ...

That is a great study, and one I've never seen before either! I notice that the reasons people are bullied really have nothing to do with something they "done," but rather the way they just "are." Certain traits get picked on by bullies, and it's almost universal. Snape has greasy hair and a big nose. He is a loner who uses curse words and can't do magic very well; neither can he play Quidditch very well. Therefore, he is a target. Thanks for that link - it just confirms everything I believe about bullying.
Amazing, isn't it, how thoroughly JKR has hit the characterization of Snape (and Sirius...). Not only the anger and bitterness, but the information about not trusting others and relating better to older people.
There was also a quote from a victim about being hypersensitive and expecting slights from people - and that really reminds me of Snape.

It seems plausible that Snape might address his House less formally outside out class--he also could've been singling Draco out, giving the impression of particular favor...There's always the DE connection to be considered--keeping the Malfoys convinced Snape is right there on their side.

It is fascinating to see that the focus of bullies is superficial characteristics, for the most part--appearances matter. Which makes me think of Sirius' insults in SWM: as we've discussed before--nothing is said about all that alleged Dark activity; all Sirius seems to care about is that Snape is ugly.

It makes sense to me (I mean, in a relative sense!)--bullies don't see their victims as worthy humans, so, of course, they pick on superficialities...they don't know the victim, really, so it's the clothes (hmm: SWM strikes again), the weight, the face....

Edit: After reading that, I wonder if Snape ever tried to commit suicide? What do you think?

I dont think so - though that possibility has been examined very believably in fanfics. I dont see suicide being examined in future canon somehow (JK has stated that there are "gritty" issues i.e drug use, teenage parenthood etc that wont be brought up in the books - suicide would be in that league)

But as far as I've seen, I don't know. In all the cases I know of that he has expressed his anger, it has always been directed outwards, never inwards. There have been no descriptions (that I've read) of him doing something intended to harm himself - but my resources are not complete so if there are any observations that contradict this let us know.

I think Snape has already done harm to himself--by joining the DEs...

While he certainly does not appear to be a happy person at all, he doesn't seem self-destructive. However, had Dumbledore not believed him--or had he not turned to Dumbledore, I think that would've been his moment. Now--despite not being a happy person, Snape does have a purpose; he does have an important reason to live...ironically, even though it entails risking his life!

It's hard to know what way he would have turned had DD not accepted his request. My view is that he would have either gone into hiding, and/or gone completely renegade - working for neither side - & maybe focused his life on self-vindication. Especially paying off his debt to Potter so he could then balance the scales. I dont think he would have been willing to die before getting back at the marauders somehow.

Ps - Norberta & Subtle_science thanks for passing the link along. I first came accross the site a few years ago while doing some research on personality disorders for an assignment (I was particularly interested in narcissism - for personal reasons - and I came accross a page from it examining the links between narcissism* & bullying.)

* And when I wrote that I remembered the part of SWM where James - when he's about to attack Severus - starts looking at the girls & showing off to them (note:Narcissism). Experienced a little scene like that myself in high-school, where one of the boys cornered me in the library with a flickknife comb to impress the girls that were with him (they were giggling). Just that part reminded me of that - and it would also have said a lot for Jame's "audience" too if they found that amusing ... (Pity I didnt have the use of a wand back then - would have hexed his eyebrow in two for a start).

Speaking of trust--I haven't yet found an instance in the books where Snape is lying. He lies, clearly, for the Order, by pretending to be a loyal DE to Voldemort; his spying seems justified lying to me. : ) For the rest of the time, he seems to be incredibly straightforward. (snip)
But the pattern I see in Snape throughout the books is that he says what he thinks; he doesn't withhold his thoughts or evade (as, for instance, Lupin does)--he tells the other characters exactly what he thinks. He may have a bias--but what he says is the truth as he sees it, and there's nothing underhanded about his approach to telling it. of course, the irony is that Harry believes he's being deceptive, somehow misinterpreting Snape's honesty for deception....(dunderhead).
I just wanted to get back to this point, if I may (sorry - I think it was, like, 1000 posts ago). I completely agree with this. I think Snape is always telling Harry the truth (as he sees it anyway) or nothing at all, and conversely, we see Harry outright lying to Snape again and again. When we finally do see Harry being honest to Snape at the end of OOTP, we see a different reaction from Snape (bolding mine)"What are you doing, Potter?" said Snape coldly as ever, as he strode over to the four of them. "I'm trying to decide what curse to use on Malfoy, sir," said Harry fiercely. Snape stared at him. "Put that wand away at once," he said curtly. "Ten points from Gryff - " - P. 852, OOTP, US Paperback Notice that Snape 'stares' at Harry. No 'glinting', no 'glittering' eyes. Just a straight-forward stare. Perhaps he's in shock that Harry is at least telling the truth here! :rotfl:
I refer to characters as they are referred to in the books. So Snape, Lupin, Dumbledore, Filch, Flitwick, etc. Or Harry, Hermione, Sirius, Ron, Percy, etc.Ditto. I mean no disrespect to any of the characters.
..where James - when he's about to attack Severus - starts looking at the girls & showing off to them (note:Narcissism).Ugh. Does anyone else think that any girl who would fall for this is an imbecile? I mean, talk about repellent behavior! And thank you so much, Norbertha, for posting that link. The more people see this, the better!

Notice that Snape 'stares' at Harry. No 'glinting', no 'glittering' eyes. Just a straight-forward stare. Perhaps he's in shock that Harry is at least telling the truth here!
:rotfl: And the truth is shocking enough! Harry is acting just like James all of a sudden! Or Harry is acting just like Snape - retaliating against a group of bullies. :huh:
Ugh. Does anyone else think that any girl who would fall for this is an imbecile? I mean, talk about repellent behavior! And thank you so much, Norbertha, for posting that link. The more people see this, the better!
Well, I'm in perfect agreement with you about James. I've always hated his behavior in that scene. It makes me shudder, the way he says, "Evans - don't make me hex you." Yuck! I just can't call that flirting. It isn't sweet and it isn't charming, especially in the context of tormenting another student.
* And when I wrote that I remembered the part of SWM where James - when he's about to attack Severus - starts looking at the girls & showing off to them (note:Narcissism). Experienced a little scene like that myself in high-school, where one of the boys cornered me in the library with a flickknife comb to impress the girls that were with him (they were giggling). Just that part reminded me of that - and it would also have said a lot for Jame's "audience" too if they found that amusing ... (Pity I didnt have the use of a wand back then - would have hexed his eyebrow in two for a start).
:rotfl: Yes, you should always shoot for the "uni-brow" when you get a chance, LOL. :p

I know this is the Snape thread, so I don't want to get too far off topic, but I believe both Sirius and James are Narcissists. I'm not a psychology major or anything, but I have a few relatives who are textbook cases, and I can see the similarities in Sirius, especially.

One thing about Narcissists is that they don't like it one bit when people disagree with them. They are the center of their own little world, and to disagree with them makes them feel extremely threatened. Therefore, someone like Snape, who starts asking questions has to be "attacked" because "How dare that little snot stick his big nose into our important and illegal business."

A Narcissist only enjoys having someone around when that person is a "yes man" or of use to them, which perfectly fits James and Peter. Another thing about that "type" is often an inability to give people what they want. Just "being with them" should be enough, and you have to accept them on their own terms. James believes that he is being suave when he uses Snape as a "pawn" to persuade Lily to go out with him. What a stupid idea, but since he thought of it, it must be perfect, right?

That is how I see Sirius's behavior at Grimmauld Place. He doesn't go out of his way to have heart-to-heart talks with Harry. When Harry locks himself away upstairs and won't come out even to eat, I noticed that Ron and Mrs. Weasley reach out to him, but Sirius does not. In fact, Sirius probably liked the fact that Harry was acting just like him, sitting in a room feeding rats to a hippogriff and being depressed.

OK - my rant is over, but it feels good to get all that out, lol. :angel:

It seems like Lucius would be fully aware of Snape's past--they were, presumably, in the same social circle just after Hogwarts, along with others who attended school with them. Now, the idea of Draco finding out about it is quite interesting. I'd have to say it would greatly affect Draco's view of Snape. I wonder how important Draco running off at the mouth is to Snape's spy work?I see what you mean there because if Lucious already new about that event and his son went and told Lucious, then he might want to know who told his son about this little memory. If Draco went and told his father he got the memory from Harry then that might make Lucious very suspicious of Snape's intensions because Snape is a great Occlumency and would not let such an event slip out, especially not to Harry unless he was up to something.

If Snape is a spy against Voldemort then I think Draco is the key to revealing Snape's true intensions to the rest of the order. Draco would see this as an attempt to make it in the death eater circle and serve Voldemort, something he has always wanted to seek. If Draco and Harry fight each other in the next book then the lie that Snape told to Draco might come. I would be very interested as to how Draco will take the lie Snape fed him when teaching Harry Occlumency. If Draco and Snape did begin to disagree then those loyal to Draco would also start giving Snape a hard time, especially now they older because Snape would have been proven to be disloyal to the Slytherin House by lying to defend a Gryffindor student.

How would Snape explain to those entire students that new Harry was so bad at potions to have remedial potion lessons if Harry gets the top grade for potions in his 5th year exams?

Snape had an abused childhood, a lonely and isolated teen life and his only adult ambition was to become DADA teacher, but in this he was thwarted at every turn. A person with this history would have problems with any kind of relationship. He would would tend to avoid any interaction in order to avoid further hurt.

Harry' s mother seemed to have felt an empathy towards him and she certainly seemed to feel a certain disgust for the behaviour of James Potter. Yet she married him.


How long were Harry's parents married before he was born?

Call me crazy, (it won't be the first time) but is it possible that Snape is Harry's biological father?

Just a thought.