Development of Snape's character through OotP, v.3

silver ink pot--Care to make room in your rant?

I'll be interested to see in HBP if and how a change in James is explained. What he says in SWM does seem to be his immature (and repulsive) idea of flirting, and I can't find anything remotely attractive about it. Lily's behavior seems to indicate that she was aware of James--that she had noticed him; however, her tirade about his rather severe faults always seems to me to be a clear declaration of why she had done nothing more than notice him previously. In other words, he might superficially--looks, athleticism--looked good, but his personality was too appalling to be believed. I can't read her blast of criticism about his ego as being her flirtation in return--I think she means exactly what she says (then again--I'm one of those people who thinks the insults on the Map are insults and Sirius' calling Regulus an idiot means he thought Regulus was an idiot!!!).

For Lily to have married him, one would hope he changed--she seems to have common sense...But the decisions about the Secret Keeper sound an awful lot like the school-days attitude.

Sirius doesn't seem to me to have changed one whit. In fact, I think he regresses in OotP--I found him thoroughly unpleasant...at least he made Harry's more understandable teenage and post-traumatic event mood swings seem minor : ) .

His behavior in the kitchen scene could've been part of SWM--except that Snape doesn't make a very good victim anymore: the change in Snape--that transformation from the 15-year-old to the adult Snape that we've discussed--is never so obvious as when he trumps Sirius verbally in the kitchen. And that seems to set Sirius off completely, that he can't get Snape to give in, that he can't win...that he can't be 15 again and the big man on campus.

Sirius puts me in mind of Tom Buchnan, in F. Scott Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby, of whom Fitzgerald observes that he was one of those people who peaked in high school and, in his adult life, would never reach those heights again...

Call me crazy, (it won't be the first time) but is it possible that Snape is Harry's biological father?I don't think it's possible. Harry looks just like James.

:p silver ink pot--Care to make room in your rant?
:) Sure, jump in!
I'll be interested to see in HBP if and how a change in James is explained. What he says in SWM does seem to be his immature (and repulsive) idea of flirting, and I can't find anything remotely attractive about it. Lily's behavior seems to indicate that she was aware of James--that she had noticed him; however, her tirade about his rather severe faults always seems to me to be a clear declaration of why she had done nothing more than notice him previously. In other words, he might superficially--looks, athleticism--looked good, but his personality was too appalling to be believed.
I agree that Lily is interested in James, and I even understand why people think they are flirting with eachother, though I don't think so. If the situation weren't quite so horrible for Snape, I would compare it to Hermione getting angry at the Weasley twins or even at Ron, for having no "emotional depth." But what James is doing is so much worse. It's hard for me to say, OK, James wasn't evil incarnate in that scene. I'm hoping for answers, too, in Book 6! Please!
I can't read her blast of criticism about his ego as being her flirtation in return--I think she means exactly what she says (then again--I'm one of those people who thinks the insults on the Map are insults and Sirius' calling Regulus an idiot means he thought Regulus was an idiot!!!).
How dare you take JKR's words literally! :evil: For instance, there's this phrase about a dog and a rabbit and . . . well, I'd better not go there, LOL. :angel:

For Lily to have married him, one would hope he changed--she seems to have common sense...But the decisions about the Secret Keeper sound an awful lot like the school-days attitude.
Yes, maybe it is just my age showing when I read that scene. I'm sure James could be charming when he tried, but because of the fatal Secret Keeper decision, it is hard for me to see their relationship in a positive light. I just have a nagging feeling that James didn't grow up in three years any better than Sirius did. In fact, the canon is that James was still following Sirius's plan right up until he and Lily died, and that worries me.
Sirius doesn't seem to me to have changed one whit. In fact, I think he regresses in OotP--I found him thoroughly unpleasant...at least he made Harry's more understandable teenage and post-traumatic event mood swings seem minor : ) .
That's right. There are some scenes in which Sirius seems no further advanced than the Weasley twins, and Harry mimics Sirius's behavior when he thinks he is the "weapon" and the "snake." He tries to run away (Sirius ran away from home) and then he withdraws into a locked room with Buckbeak (Like Sirius's "fits of the sullens).

His behavior in the kitchen scene could've been part of SWM--except that Snape doesn't make a very good victim anymore: the change in Snape--that transformation from the 15-year-old to the adult Snape that we've discussed--is never so obvious as when he trumps Sirius verbally in the kitchen. And that seems to set Sirius off completely, that he can't get Snape to give in, that he can't win...that he can't be 15 again and the big man on campus.
:tu: Well said.
Sirius puts me in mind of Tom Buchnan, in F. Scott Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby, of whom Fitzgerald observes that he was one of those people who peaked in high school and, in his adult life, would never reach those heights again...
See, that's why you're an English teacher and I am merely an ex-English Major, LOL. I always think of Bruce Springsteen's "Glory Days" or John Mellencamp's "Cherry Bomb.":lol:



Glory Days:

. . . Glory days yeah goin back
Glory days aw he ain't never had
Glory days, glory days

Now I think I'm going down to the well tonight
and I'm going to drink till I get my fill
And I hope when I get old I don't sit around thinking about it
but I probably will
Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture
a little of the glory of, well time slips away
and leaves you with nothing mister but
boring stories of glory days


Cherry Bomb:

". . . That's when a sport was a sport
And groovin' was groovin'
And dancin' meant everything
We were young and we were improvin'
Laughin', laughin' with our friends
Holdin' hands meant somethin', baby
Outside the club Cherry Bomb
Our hearts were really thumpin'

. . . Seventeen has turned thirty-five
I'm surprised that we're still livin'
If we've done any wrong
I hope that we're forgiven"

How would Snape explain to those entire students that new Harry was so bad at potions to have remedial potion lessons if Harry gets the top grade for potions in his 5th year exams?
It is probably the equivalent of tutoring. We don't know how bad you would be to end up in remedial potions. It is reasonable to think it could be explained away by some one on one lessons that dealt with Harry's "major" problems in potions. Malfoy had no way to know how long it had been going on, so it leaves a lot of wiggle room.

About Sirius: his arrogance seems more along the lines of the kind that some very intelligent people succumb to. He can't imagine being wrong. Of course, I always think of narcissism as the greek myth (so enthralled with the way they look), not as the proper(?)...definition. There does seem to be an attitude of "better than everyone else" but I'm not sure that I would classify that as narcissism. :shrug:

I have to admit, the difference between Sirius in GoF and OotP is big. Even though he exibhited some of his classic personality traits, he was considerably more mature during GoF. Does anyone know enough psychology to define this difference? I must admit a curiousity on how that would compare to some of Snape's psychological tendencies. They seem to be the two adults with the most problems. If anyone else is curious, anyway.

I also think of "Glory Days" when I consider Sirius' character...

It is Sirius' air of superiority that I think makes me bristle...I said over on Decon that he strikes me as the type of person who never failed: he had no idea what it was like. He was handsome, intelligent, and talented. Even his rebellion against his family succeeded--he walked out and fell into situations that actually improved his life. And, again, his attitude toward his family is clearly one of superiority: Regulus is lesser because he didn't do what Sirius did...never mind that Regulus, apparently, didn't at all share Sirius' objections. That just makes Regulus that much more of an idiot...

In SWM, Sirius makes it clear that studying is beneath him: he knows it all (oh, how I loooovvvee students with that attitude...Just to clarify--I've never had anybody named Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawkings in my classes, who might justifiably get away with such a comment!). And obviously he is successful academically...

The Secret Keeper switch is his first known failure--and it's a whopper. And I do lay it on his shoulders: not suggesting Dumbledore was a stunning miscalculation. And since, he seems to have made a number of mistakes--going after Pettigrew himself twice; again, leaving Dumbledore out of the mix--both times (talk about not learning your lesson); accompanying Harry to the train station....

It is that failure to learn that is so irritating: Sirius has made major mistakes, but continues as if he had been right.

In PoA, he's clearly distraught, and so his poor decisions are understandable. In GoF, he's strongly opinionated and still a bit reckless, but he seems to do more good than not for Harry--at least Sirius' advice seems to tally with Dumbledore's. In OotP....SMACK! (sorry, resorted to violence there). While it is understandable that being back at 12GP is torturous...Sirius seems to go out of his way to cause conflict. His face off with Molly on Harry's first night gets my blood pressure up--just one aspect is that he is clearly subverting Dumbledore's orders, as if he knows better. Then there's his face off with Snape in "Occlumency." He even takes out his mood on Harry...as if Harry hasn't got enough problems of his own; one thing that came to me as I read through OotP was how obnxious this was--Sirius is supposed to be so devoted to Harry, and yet he subjects him to this, after Harry has had about as traumatic an end to the previous school year as is possible....

That he's stuck not being able to go out and do something for the Order is understandably frustrating...but he's not alone in the house. The Order meets there; there are people there constantly. It strikes me that one of his problems is jealousy...especially about Snape's position in the Order....

Of course, he treats Molly with something less than stellar behavior...Which leads me to another observation: he barely lifts a finger around his own house. Molly does all the cooking--Sirius doesn't help, although others get involved. Harry, on his first night, is excused (makes sense); Sirius sits with him and Mundungus...whom he's invited, despite the fact that Molly can't abide him. It's Molly who organizes the cleaning of Sirius' house--Sirius at least does participate in some of that...but not happily, and he leaves it to her to figure out what to do next.

Between PoA and Ootp, Lupin progresses; Sirius is going backwards.

And you'll notice that I did randomly mention Snape in there, so I haven't gone 100% off topic...... : )

Argh, just watched the polls for questions to J.K. Rowling... NONE is about Snape! Neither here nor on the leaking cauldron!
I suppose they guessed our "Snape" questions would be answered by the HBP, but still...

Cry cry cry! :upset:

In SWM, Sirius makes it clear that studying is beneath him: he knows it all (oh, how I loooovvvee students with that attitude...Just to clarify--I've never had anybody named Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawkings in my classes, who might justifiably get away with such a comment!). And obviously he is successful academically...
:lol:Mr. Know-it-All!
Of course, he treats Molly with something less than stellar behavior...Which leads me to another observation: he barely lifts a finger around his own house. Molly does all the cooking--Sirius doesn't help, although others get involved. Harry, on his first night, is excused (makes sense); Sirius sits with him and Mundungus...whom he's invited, despite the fact that Molly can't abide him. It's Molly who organizes the cleaning of Sirius' house--Sirius at least does participate in some of that...but not happily, and he leaves it to her to figure out what to do next.
Grrrr - this is one of my pet peeves (pun intended) about Sirius, LOL. He does help with the house cleaning, but he resents having to do it, especially since Snape is asking him about it. At least Molly is willing and doesn't complain.
Argh, just watched the polls for questions to J.K. Rowling... NONE is about Snape! Neither here nor on the leaking cauldron!
I suppose they guessed our "Snape" questions would be answered by the HBP, but still...

Cry cry cry!

Someone earlier on this thread - was it Norbertha? - suggested we vote for the question on the Leaky Cauldron about the Point of View of the Pensieve, because JKR might mention Snape's Worst Memory. I checked this morning and it seems to be leading the questions in votes with 3364, with the closest contender being one about Neville's gum wrapper at 3183. As much as I love the gum wrapper theories, I think that one will be answered someday, while the Pensieve question affects how we read GoF and OotP. So I hope everyone votes for the Pensieve question as it is they key to understanding some important scenes, and we'll get the gum wrapper story eventually anyway, and the anagrams will ring true or they won't.

Hi all, I'm back... *pant* Sorry for the delay... hard to keep track of this fast thread, especially when at the same time you're being involved into another forum on short notice. *pant*

(Just for those interested: [shameless plug] the Snape section of the TPT forum (http://plotthickens.mugglenet.com/index.php) is almost finished, the last three essay sections should be up on Friday. E.g. SIP's, dog star's and mine are already there, and Inkwolf's is due on Friday. [/shameless plug] )

Wow, some definitely interesting stuff has been brought up in the meantime... :wow: and more new posters have arrived! :welcome: Atmavan, Belladonna and Ars Tempus! I can't comment on everything that has been posted, but at least join in with some bits in reference to a topic discussed way back...

As has been discussed here previously, Snape consistently gives warnings before his loses his temper--and, most strikingly, in PoA when he tells Sirius to give him a reason. Snape does not act first; there's a rattlesnake aspect to him--he gives fair warning that there will be trouble.

Exactly. :tu: He does in PoA in the Shack, and he gave Harry "fair warning" in GoF in case Harry were to break into his office again. Interestingly in this scene he's thinking about the stolen boomslang skin - which in GoF Fake Moody had been stealing, but which in CoS Harry and Co. had stolen for their Polyjuice Potion too.

Now this boomslang isn't just any magical ingredient invented by Jo, but a real existing snake. (As we know, a green serpent is on the Slytherin crest, and according to Jo, Snape is "most definitely" a Slytherin.) OK, so we know about two other snakes in HP: a boa constrictor supposedly from Brazil (?) in PS/SS and Nagini, apparently an impossible mix of a big strangling snake and a venomous snake (which are normally much smaller and more intelligent). But I do find it interesting that Jo digged out the boomslang, out of all the more or less well-known snakes in existence, to be found in the Potions Master's private store. :evil: Please bear with me for a moment, you'll see why.

The boomslang is a poisonous snake from South Africa, and it lives in bushes and trees (thus its name, which means "tree snake" in Dutch and Afrikaans; Latin name "Dispholidus typus", length roughly 1,50m - 2m for a male). It's one of the few poisonous snakes in the huge "Colubridae" family, rear-fanged and rather unaggressive - it prefers to flee when approached. But if it's cornered and has no other choice than to strike, it can be really dangerous. Its venom (a haemotoxine, i.e. it causes blood-clotting and internal bleeding) can be lethal and kill relatively fast if you don't have the right antivenom near you - and for boomslang bites you need a special antivenom since this venom works differently than most snake venoms.

The picture in my avatar shows an adult boomslang, taken from Boomslang - Herpetology Collection of the Transvaal Museum (http://www.nfi.org.za/herps/snakes/boomslang.htm), but when you visit their site you'll also find the picture of a young boomslang which looks completely different: very dark on top and with a light belly. :wow: While growing up they undergo a complete change in appearance, and even in adult state their coloration varies: males tend to have a greenish-yellowish colour and/or even patterns, while females seem to have more brownish or olive-coloured shades of colour. Boomslangs are often confused with a variety of other snakes (http://www.survivaliq.com/survival/poisonous-snakes-and-lizards-boomslang.htm), including e.g. the Green Mamba, Bush snakes or harmless grass snakes, and in their tree habitat they're hard to spot because of their appearance.

Colubrids (http://www.szgdocent.org/resource/rr/c-colbrid.htm)
Typical snakes: Colubrids comprise two-thirds up to three-quarters of all snakes, and thus a wide variety of snakes. Sometimes consider the “dustbin” family because snakes which don’t fit in elsewhere are dumped here.

Most are "typical snakes" with enlarged belly scales, enlarged head scales, reduced left lung, no traces of pelvis or hind limbs. Most are small and harmless. But a few have grooved venom fangs at the back of their mouths (rear-fanged snakes), venom is injected only into prey that is well in the mouth. So these snakes are less dangerous than front fanged snakes which can open their mouths really big and pump in more venom. But the family does contain some highly venomous snakes, the most infamous being three arboreal African snakes: the Boomslang (Dipholidus typus) and two species of vine snakes (Thelotornis spp). Many lay eggs, some give birth to live young.

Snake Bites and First Aid (http://www.szgdocent.org/resource/rr/c-1staid.htm)
Snakes do not usually attack humans unless they are surprised or cornered. Snakes will usually first warn off the human. Only a careless movement will stimulate the snake to strike.

Snakes prefer not to bite. Their venom is their precious ammunition for hunting. They will usually give many warnings before wasting venom or risking danger by actually biting a provoker. Warnings include
Baring fangs: Opening the mouth wide, displaying teeth.
Making warning noises: hissing, spitting, vibrating vegetation
Getting into strike position: The classic S-shape. Some harmless snakes make false strikes with their mouths closed. Most venomous snakes make a few false strikes before actually biting.
And many that do bite usually don't inject their precious venom ("dry bites").

How many snakes are venomous?
Four family of snakes (Atractaspididae, Colubridae, Elapidae and Viperdae) include species dangerous to humans, a total of 450 species or about 19% of all snake species..

How to avoid snake bites?
Snakes do not go looking for people to bite. If we are sensible, we can avoid snake bites.
Do not handle snakes: Usually a person is bitten either when holding a snake or attempting to pick it up or to kill it.
Never play with snakes: Remain at a safe distance, no nearer then two snake body lengths away
Do not pick up a "dead" snake: It may only be injured, stunned or playing dead. Even in a dead snake, reflex action can cause the jaws to open and close.
Use common sense and dress properly when going into habitats frequented by snakes. Boots and coarse long trousers should be worn in the wild. Do not put hands or legs in places not first visually examined. As most venomous snakes are nocturnal, light up your path so you can spot the snake.

Hmm, as a Patronus seems to reflect the personality of the caster... Any bets on his? :evil:


EDIT1: Yes, I would have preferred a Snape question too... :sigh: Some seem to be of the category Jo probably won't answer (e.g. Ginny's or Hagrid's role), and others don't have the "feel" of being really necessary because the answer seems to be in the books already. (Why Aberforth has goats? Um, does anyone remember Snape's bezoar question in PS/SS? :p ) I voted for the wizarding government question. It should prove interesting, it likely won't be fully covered even in HBP, and I don't think that it will spoil the plotline so Jo would have to dodge it.


EDIT 2: Wheeee!! :clap: Just found an owl telling me that I scored 3rd in the anti-spoiler contest, text category! Thanks all!!
*does a somersault of sheer happiness*

It is probably the equivalent of tutoring. We don't know how bad you would be to end up in remedial potions. It is reasonable to think it could be explained away by some one on one lesson that dealt with Harry's "major" problems in potions. Malfoy had no way to know how long it had been going on, so it leaves a lot of wiggle room.Umm... true Snape would probably just say how great a tutor he is and show off in front of the Slytherin House.

While reading OotP I just realized how important Snape's job really is to the order as they held a special meeting just to hear his report according the Fred and George. I keep wondering what Snape had to report so soon into the book. We know that there was some sort of map involved so perhaps what ever Snape was reporting during the meeting had something to do with that map. Actually what might have concerned Snape more than anything was Harry finding out about his work for the order if it was to be kept secret? It might explain why Snape panics and almost attacks Harry after he catches him in the Pensieve looking down on his memories.

I found the children’s attitude towards Snape when they found out he was in the order funny, they almost had to convince themselves that he was still bad anyone. Poor Snape he can not do anything right can he.

I am a little worried about Snape now, I mean Snape told us that Voldemort was excellent at Ligamency and Occlumency so he might have already figured out that Snape had been giving him Occlumency lessons in the ministry of magic. I would have been interested to know how Snape interacted after hearing Harry and Voldemort had come in contact with each other again.

Pity there was nothing on Snape at the end of the book though and strange too that he was left out of the main ending.

....--bullies don't see their victims as worthy humans, so, of course, they pick on superficialities...they don't know the victim, really, so it's the clothes (hmm: SWM strikes again), the weight, the face....I think that's what is most telling - they don't know the victim. I strongly feel that several of the things we hear about Snape are viewed thru the Marauder Filter. We've talked about Harry's Filter but I think that too many people just accept what Sirius tells us about Snape as truth (not so much on this thread of course).

Especially that line about coming to Hogwarts at 11 knowing more curses than 7th years. I think that's got to be something they decided to explain why 6th or 7th yr Malfoy took an interest in 1st yr Severus. It's just not really likely to be the truth - yes there's a possibility that it may be true, but if it was however did they manage to 'begin' bullying him, it would have been difficult to make him a victim if he really knew magic that was so far advanced what they knew. And by labeling Severus as that 'dark' they could call their bullying 'noble' because they were fighting 'evil'.

....But the decisions about the Secret Keeper sound an awful lot like the school-days attitude. Actually, I've had a little revelation in my way of thinking on the SK Switch, brought about on another thread that asks (paraphrased) 'How could Hagrid find Harry when he was under the Fidelus Charm?' - It's seems the consenus is that the Fidelus Charm 'broke'. I had previously come to that conclusion on MuggleNet's New Clues Forum, but I thought it broke when VM became VaporMort and could no longer hurt Harry (danger over, no need for charm), but through several intelligent posters the better idea came up - that a charm based on 'faithfulness' (fidelus) broke when Peter 'broke the 'faith put in him' and betrayed the Potters.

However, my main point here is about Sirius' and Peter's switch - I think the reason the Fidelus Charm wasn't used earlier (it took a year of hiding before they performed it) was that the charm is actually very dangerous - especially when put on people. That if the secret-keeper dies, the secret dies with them and those under Fidelus would never be found (except by those who had been told the secret). This is where Sirius MIGHT have been right to make the Switch (too bad he didn't make the switch to DD - that's where it goes bad - using Peter). We know that if Sirius was targeted as Secret-Keeper, he says he would have died rather than betray his friends - well, if I'm right then they would have been lost when he died.

I actually think this is such a reasonable reason for the Switch that I think we may have some canon that it wasn't Sirius' idea. Snape's comment to Harry after the ShriekShack Incident about how Harry would have died 'just like his father' for trusting in Sirius instead of him has always seemed to me to mean that James and Snape argued about using Sirius as secret-keeper. I'm sure Snape's suggestion was DD or himself (he owed a wizard's debt to James). I'm sure they vetoed that idea just based on the fact Snape suggested it, and then after Snape left decided it had some merit, but chose Peter over DD

I also think of "Glory Days" when I consider Sirius' character...

This is off-topic, but the song that reminds me of Sirius (from Harry's perspective at the end) is Radiohead's High and Dry:

Two jumps in a week,
I bet you think that's pretty clever don't you boy?
Flying on your motorcycle,
watching all the ground beneath you drop
You'd kill yourself for recognition,
kill yourself to never, ever stop
You broke another mirror,
you're turning into something you are not

Don't leave me high, don't leave me dry

(Don't know how to do that neat table thing.)

Actually, I've had a little revelation in my way of thinking on the SK Switch, brought about on another thread that asks (paraphrased) 'How could Hagrid find Harry when he was under the Fidelus Charm?' - It's seems the consenus is that the Fidelus Charm 'broke'. I had previously come to that conclusion on MuggleNet's New Clues Forum, but I thought it broke when VM became VaporMort and could no longer hurt Harry (danger over, no need for charm), but through several intelligent posters the better idea came up - that a charm based on 'faithfulness' (fidelus) broke when Peter 'broke the 'faith put in him' and betrayed the Potters.
That is a good idea and similar to the charm Hermione put on the DA list, which caused Marietta's face to break out in boils when she "broke" her word and told all to Umbridge.

In the "internal" symbolic world of the books, making Peter the Secret Keeper doesn't work. Dogs are the symbol of "fidelity" - "man's best friend." Dogs are the symbols of unconditional love and protection.

Rats on the other hand are associated with sneakiness, nasty behavior, disease, and defending themselves, as when the "cornered rat" Peter blows up a whole street just to run away from the "trusty tracking dog" Sirius Black.

Grrrr - this is one of my pet peeves (pun intended) about Sirius, LOL. He does help with the house cleaning, but he resents having to do it, especially since Snape is asking him about it. At least Molly is willing and doesn't complain.

I see you need a devil's advocate ;) Some people could argue that we don't know if the Weasleys were from the very beginning stationed at Grimmauld Place--Sirius could have been alone there for some time and had to do the first and probably the most difficult attempts to make the house more fit for human beings. Or even if Molly was there right from the beginning, Padfoot could have been more active and optimistic then, because he didn't have to know that they fought loosing battle when trying to clean the place. Not that I believe this, but I thought that a bit of a different point of view would do good.

. Boomslangs are often confused with a variety of other snakes, including e.g. the Green Mamba, Bush snakes or harmless grass snakes, and in their tree habitat they're hard to spot because of their appearance.

:agree: At first I thought that you had Green Mamba as an avatar.

EDIT 2: Wheeee!! Just found an owl telling me that I scored 3rd in the anti-spoiler contest, text category! Thanks all!

Congrats! :clap:

I thought of something that's not currently the topic here, but as it is about Snape I guess I should write about it here. Have you talked about Snape and Sirius acting similarly in one way? They both don't trust Dumbledore when it comes to persons that they know from the past. I know that the situations in which they don't believe the Headmaster are different, but still it is strange that two opposite characters could have something (even if it is not something bery big) in common.

Snape chooses not to trust Dumbledore when it comes to Lupin--in PoA, Severus* repeatedly tries to convince the Headmaster that Remus is a liar that helps the murderer!Black. Ironically, the people who believe Snape is bad Harry, Sirius etc) do so because of the same reasons--they choose not to trust Dumbledore. Both Snape and Harry don't realise in this case that Dumbledore has its own reasons for trusting Lupin/Snape even if he doesn't share them with anyone.[/end randomness]

*I use first names and last names of the characters because I don't want to repeat some words all the time. Also I don't use some first names too often for a very simple reason: I have sometimes problems with names that end with 's'... :blush:

This is off-topic, but the song that reminds me of Sirius (from Harry's perspective) is Radiohead's High and Dry:

Quote:
Two jumps in a week,
I bet you think that's pretty clever don't you boy?
Flying on your motorcycle,
watching all the ground beneath you drop
You'd kill yourself for recognition,
kill yourself to never, ever stop
You broke another mirror,
you're turning into something you are not

Don't leave me high, don't leave me dry
That is cool, Ars Tempus! I don't know that song but it is uncannily like Sirius, isn't it?

EDIT 2: Wheeee!! Just found an owl telling me that I scored 3rd in the anti-spoiler contest, text category! Thanks all!!
*does a somersault of sheer happiness*
Congratulations, Serpentine! :clap:

My Snape siggy didn't win, but I still had fun making it and Snape is still going to pickle anyone who spoils the HBP! :)

There were several times in the books where Harry would say something to Snape, and I would think "oh no - he's going to explode," but then Snape took it calmly and coolly and just gave Harry a partial answer. He seems like he's in much better control of his emotions, and yet he can't stop mistreating Harry.

I thought of something that's not currently the topic here, but as it is about Snape I guess I should write about it here. Have you talked about Snape and Sirius acting similarly in one way? They both don't trust Albus when it comes to persons that they know from the past. I know that the situations in which they don't believe the Headmaster are different, but still it is strange that two opposite characters could have something (even if it is not something bery big) in common.

We don't see too many characters trusting in Albus, actually, certainly not Harry most of the time, not enough to bother him (and Albus returns the no-trust favor in OOTP). Not Remus, not enough to give up a secret which might shed light on Sirius' whereabouts. Even though Albus' door is always open, the way he shuts down Severus' concerns about Remus might indicate he is not really that approachable.

We don't see too many characters trusting in Albus, actually, certainly not Harry most of the time, not enough to bother him (and Albus returns the no-trust favor in OOTP). Not Remus, not enough to give up a secret which might shed light on Sirius' whereabouts. Even though Albus' door is always open, the way he shuts down Severus' concerns about Remus might indicate he is not really that approachable.
Maybe Dumbledore doesn't seem "approachable," but he always gives help to those who ask for it. The problem is, Lupin and Sirius never asked for it. He's certainly helped Snape in the past.

That's why I love the character of Phineas Nigellus so much! This is what he says to Harry about Dumbledore:

Chapter 23, OotP:

Has it not occurred to you, my poor puffed-up popinjay, that there might be an excellent reason why the headmaster of Hogwarts is not confiding every tiny detail of his plans to you? Have you never paused, while feeling hard-done-by, to note that following Dumbledore's orders has never yet led you into harm? No. No, like all young people you are quite sure that you alone feel and think you alone recognize danger, you alone are the only one clever enough to realize what the Dark Lord may be planning . . . "

Now there is a character who trusts Dumbledore! And he's like the ultimate Slytherin! :)

Edited to Add: Phineas is talking about Harry, but he could be talking about the Marauders, too.

Congratulations, Serpentine!

I also like the snake-y information...Not only is Snape prone to give fair warning, but there are also the repetitious descriptions of his "soft" and "hissing" voice, particularly when he is delivering those warnings. We've discussed here in the past what his Patronus could be (espcially as revealing it is saying too much, according to JKR); thestral and hippogriff have also been proposed, but snake is a distinct, definite possibility that fits a great deal of his character.

As far as Sirius and cleaning...He couldn't have been alone in the house for very long: he's told to go to Lupin's house first, at the end of GoF and at the end of the school year, to "lie low." By summer, 12GP is headquarters for the Order. A month, at most--if that? And, even though the cleaning is arduous, and Harry compares it to waging a war on the house--they are winning. They consistently make progress as they carry out each of Molly's projects. Molly, who does not own the house....as silver ink pot would say: Grrrr.

The people who don't trust Snape are Harry, Sirius, and Ron--no one else voices a distrust. In opposition are Hermione, Lupin, and Dumbledore, and Molly by implication in her insistence that Harry use Snape's title.

Ron never actually discusses much with Dumbledore, so his trust in Dumbledore is secondhand--he has to be told directly by Hermione to trust both Snape and Dumbledore, with the latter being the most important. Not to mention that Ron is hardly the deepest thinker in the books.

Harry is confused by the mixed messages: Snape clearly hates him, yet Dumbledore tells him to trust Snape and--particularly at the end of OotP--what Snape has done for him. As a teenager, Harry can't reconcile these apparent opposites. Unfortunately, both Ron and Sirius reinforce Harry's mistaken lack of trust.

Sirius, presumably, knows the most about the Order's busniess and what Snape is actually doing, as well as why Dumbledore has set down the guidelines he has for everyone in the Order--so it's Sirius' lack of trust and reinforcement of Harry's suspicions that is most difficult to justify. And, in OotP, he openly questions Dumbledore's judgment as well.


What's interesting is that, when Snape questions Dumbledore's judgment about Lupin in PoA, it happens first before school starts. Then, at the start of school, apparently Snape is willing to tolerate Lupin; he doesn't bring the subject up again until there is some reason to suspect Lupin might be up to no good--Sirius' break in. I don't think Dumbledore is unapproachable, but rather that he already gave Snape a hearing about his doubts; he doesn't want to get into it again--and especially not in the middle of the Great Hall, surrounded by students (great timing, Snape!). Ironically, Snape is proven correct about Lupin's lack of veracity.

silver ink pot--I love that speech by Phineas Nigellus: yet another voice in the books pointing out that we're all in big trouble if it turns out Dumbledore never knew what he was doing!!! ETA: OOohh--and excellent point about the application to the Marauders!

SIP I really like your idea of pinning Phineas' words to Harry onto the Marauders - it really goes to the point of how they believed they knew better and the question of trust. And the worst instance is the choice of Peter as secret-keeper when DD offered himself. I really can't wait to find out why. I think it will somehow turn on the belief that DD trusted Snape and they couldn't reconcile that with their own beliefs about him.

I go back and forth with my ideas about how much the Marauders knew about Snape's activities. On the one hand Sirius didn't know for sure that Snape was a DE until the end of GoF. But on the other, Snape's comment to Harry after the ShriekingShack in PoA implies that James' death was caused by trusting Sirius over Snape (or at least I read it that way) - which would seem to mean that the guys knew Snape was providing info but didn't trust it/him.

Sirius sits with him and Mundungus...whom he's invited, despite the fact that Molly can't abide him.
I would imagine that Dumbledore would prefer for those at GP to keep cordial relations with Mundungus, considering he is a useful member of the Order. I tend to feel that Molly was more out of line in that particular scene than Sirius.

Wheeee!! Just found an owl telling me that I scored 3rd in the anti-spoiler contest, text category!
Congratulations!

.... I just realized how important Snape's job really is to the order as they held a special meeting just to hear his report according the Fred and George. I keep wondering what Snape had to report so soon into the book. We know that there was some sort of map involved so perhaps what ever Snape was reporting during the meeting had something to do with that map... I think his report was about VM wanting the prophecy and the map was of the MoM, especially the floor that the DoM is located on and they're trying to figure the best position to hide the Order members who act as guards on the DoM door

....Pity there was nothing on Snape at the end of the book though and strange too that he was left out of the main ending.I know - I really want to know how VM might have reacted to the Order coming to Harry's rescue. I hope Snape was able to convince him that the Order must have had someone watching the DoM who warned the other Order members! Oh hurry, hurry July 16th!!!

Of course we won't know how that scene plays out unless Harry 'sees' that scene thru the VM/Harry connection.

silver ink pot--I love that speech by Phineas Nigellus: yet another voice in the books pointing out that we're all in big trouble if it turns out Dumbledore never knew what he was doing!!! ETA: OOohh--and excellent point about the application to the Marauders!
:blush: Thank you! As I was writing that, I was thinking about how "old" Phineas Nigellus is. He's Sirius Black's Great-Great Grandfather. So he's been there, done that with alot of people in different generations. I think that is one reason his words ring so true.
SIP I really like your idea of pinning Phineas' words to Harry onto the Marauders - it really goes to the point of how they believed they knew better and the question of trust. And the worst instance is the choice of Peter as secret-keeper when DD offered himself. I really can't wait to find out why. I think it will somehow turn on the belief that DD trusted Snape and they couldn't reconcile that with their own beliefs about him.
:tu: Great point!

But the question is: did any of the Marauders know that Snape was the spy? Snape's comments about James' being too arrogant to believe he could be mistaken in Black could indicate that Snape spoke directly to James...or it could be that the information was passed back and forth through Dumbledore.

About Mundungus...well, there could've been a better time to be cordial. He's the reason Harry needed rescuing from the Dursleys'; he's apparently slept through most of the meeting ("bloodshot eyes"--a little too much to drink?); he lights up the pipe that smells like "burning socks," even though it's apparent he's been asked many times before not to smoke in the kitchen; and he concludes the meal with his story of the double theft. Molly "thinks inviting him to stay to dinner is going too far" (p. 87)--which it seems to be, since he can't seem to behave particularly well, and Sirius doesn't seem to have much interest in getting him to be somewhat less of a supreme irritant to Molly--especially sicne Sirius is well aware of her feelings. And to choose the very first night Harry is there, after Mundungus was the one who abandoned his post...Sirius, not thinking too clearly.

But the question is: did any of the Marauders know that Snape was the spy? Snape's comments about James' being too arrogant to believe he could be mistaken in Black could indicate that Snape spoke directly to James...or it could be that the information was passed back and forth through Dumbledore.
I think it's more likely that Dumbledore was the "middle man" between them, since I believe Snape would have told Dumbledore about the spy first, before James knew.

About Mundungus...well, there could've been a better time to be cordial. He's the reason Harry needed rescuing from the Dursleys'; he's apparently slept through most of the meeting ("bloodshot eyes"--a little too much to drink?); he lights up the pipe that smells like "burning socks," even though it's apparent he's been asked many times before not to smoke in the kitchen; and he concludes the meal with his story of the double theft. Molly "thinks inviting him to stay to dinner is going too far" (p. 87)--which it seems to be, since he can't seem to behave particularly well, and Sirius doesn't seem to have much interest in getting him to be somewhat less of a supreme irritant to Molly--especially sicne Sirius is well aware of her feelings. And to choose the very first night Harry is there, after Mundungus was the one who abandoned his post...Sirius, not thinking too clearly.
:clap: Great post!

I think we've discovered the real reason Snape won't stay for dinner! The smell of burning socks makes him nauseated, LOL! :evil:

Burning Socks! That is a great catch! :rotfl:

Did you know there was an alchemist in the 1600s named "Theodorus Mundanus"? His name comes up in footnotes from time to time, and reminds me of "Mundungus." He was a contemporary of Isaac Newton, and he wrote a famous letter (in Latin) to the Royal Physician and Chemist of that time, Dr. Edmund Dickinson.

http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/edickinson.html

The diarist, John Evelyn, went to see Dickinson and records the visit thus: "'I went to see Dr. Dickinson, the famous chemist. We had a long conversation about the philosopher's elixir, which he believed attainable and had seen projection himself by one who went under the name of Mundanus, who sometimes came among the adepts, but was unknown as to his country or abode; of this the doctor has written a treatise in Latin, full of very astonishing relations. He is a very learned person, formerly a fellow of St. John's College, Oxford, in which city he practised physic, but has now altogether given it over, and lives retired, being very old and infirm, yet continuing chymistry."

EDIT 2: Wheeee!! :clap: Just found an owl telling me that I scored 3rd in the anti-spoiler contest, text category! Thanks all!!
*does a somersault of sheer happiness*

Good work! :tu:


We've discussed here in the past what his Patronus could be (espcially as revealing it is saying too much, according to JKR); thestral and hippogriff have also been proposed, but snake is a distinct, definite possibility that fits a great deal of his character.

I think I read somewhere that a patronus is *usually* a non-magical creature, so if his patronus is something magical it could indicate something quite exceptional about him. The possibility of the snake patronus I would also support. You cant just pull a patronus out of any old nice memory that comes into your head, it has to be something major - your greatest good memory if possible. For someone who has clearly been kicked around as much as he has (bullied both at school and home?), then the very first time that he struck back successfully - and learnt that he could effectively defend himself - would have been enough of a biggie for him. (I actually thought of that when I was looking at a drawing someone did of a young Snape doing his first decent spell - you can see it here (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/20028721/)).
And whenever I read or think of the part about how he came to school knowing more curses & hexes than most final years ... well, if that glimpse of his home life was any indication, maybe he had to. Its not too far-fetched to think that, in an abusive wizarding household, an abusive parent would regularly use magic against his/her targets. Especially if his father also questioned his right to live ... maybe Snape had a few near-misses from his father. Maybe he had to learn to fight fire with fire, and it would make sense for him to want the DADA job so badly - after all, what is it basically about? teaching children to defend themselves from dark magic (like he had to learn - probably by himself). And what is the first thing that he does when he's given a taste of the job filling in for Lupin? Warn them in the best way that he can think of that they are in danger - and specify the nature of that danger. Just a thought...

I neglected to add that neither Sirius nor Mundungus (isn't his name slang for tobacco, or something to do with the evil weed, according to JKR? but I like the echo of it in the "chymistry" scholar...) lifts a finger to help. Interestingly (well, to me, who delights in obscure character notes), Lupin is the only one to mind his manners: "It looks wonderful, Molly," said Lupin, ladling stew onto a plate for her and handing it across the table (p. 84, US hardcover).

What a contrast. Lupin's mom should be proud: he didn't, apparently, help--unless he was one of the unnamed "others" who sets the table, but what a nice bit of subtle character development: he's the only person who compliments the dinner, and I really like the detail that he serves Molly, after all of her work. Go, Lupin!

The ones who worked, I'll excuse for not thanking Molly or acknowledging the meal--since they worked, too....What a different idea I'd have of Sirius if, in his house, he had gotten up and been the one to serve the food--to anyone, not just Molly.

And that's clearly it: Snape can't wait to get out of the house, even if it means missing a great meal, because he can't breathe! : ) !!!!!!!!!! (Okay--random bit of utter, inexcusable trivia: Alan Rickman doesn't smoke in films--this was discovered by watching Die Hard and most of Quigley Down Under and shouting out the discovery at the same time as the other AR fanatic watching the DVD's...In both, once AR has lit the tobacco product, he never takes another drag. He fiddles with it, but he never again puts it in his mouth, in long, continuous shots...Okay--yes, I really love trivia!)

Burning Socks! That is a great catch!So, do you think that's a comment on freedom? (Dobby/Socks) or perhaps a symbol of Dung's carelessness about Harry (DD/MirrorOfErised/Socks=VMwarWonByHarry)?

I don't know, I like him now, after seeing what he went through as a child and teen, no one deserves that, but there's no reason to take it out on Harry... I'm still waiting to find out some important stuff about him later, like his patronus!

About Mundungus...well, there could've been a better time to be cordial. He's the reason Harry needed rescuing from the Dursleys'; he's apparently slept through most of the meeting ("bloodshot eyes"--a little too much to drink?); he lights up the pipe that smells like "burning socks," even though it's apparent he's been asked many times before not to smoke in the kitchen; and he concludes the meal with his story of the double theft. Molly "thinks inviting him to stay to dinner is going too far" (p. 87)--which it seems to be, since he can't seem to behave particularly well, and Sirius doesn't seem to have much interest in getting him to be somewhat less of a supreme irritant to Molly--especially sicne Sirius is well aware of her feelings. And to choose the very first night Harry is there, after Mundungus was the one who abandoned his post...Sirius, not thinking too clearly.
I'm not defending Mundungus, his behavior is atrocious. However, given the situation that the Order found itself in (I'm refering to Voldemort's resurrection and the lack of belief in it [sounds rather like another story of resurrection]), can they afford to offend Mundungus? I don't expect Molly to be happy with him, especially when he is discussing illegal activities with her already borderline boys, let alone the issue with leaving Harry. She needed to respect the contributions made by Mundungus and see that there is value in having someone like him around. That doesn't mean that she needs to feel it necessary to become his best friend, or encourage him to indulge in the "wet sock aroma" habit. Of course, I don't think Mundungus is particularly concerned with Molly's opinion, but could the Order stand to lose someone who believes them at that point? And for all the bad tendencies of Mundungus, it was he who gave the Order a head's up about the DA, as well as providing Harry with a timely lesson about what you should say and where.

clkginny--Oh, I'm not saying that they all don't have to play nice with Mundungus (who appears only to be loyal to Dumbledore). What I'm saying is that Sirius choose a particularly inappropriate time to add him to the guest list. From what he himself says, as well as Molly's exasperated "For the last time, Mundungus" (p. 81), Mundungus has spent plenty of time in the house, enjoying the hospitality...Sirius just seems to choose an especially inopportune evening.

In fact, Sirius seems to me, in the whole scene, to be looking to cause trouble--in addition to everything else, his comment that he would've "welcomed a dementor attack" (p. 82). Is he taking out a fit of bad temper and jealousy that he couldn't go rescue Harry on everyone else in the house? I tend to think that, although I also think he just dislikes Molly, period,m and wants to do anything to bait her (he's not too concerned about keeping her happy in the Order!).

I tend to think that, although I also think he just dislikes Molly, period,m and wants to do anything to bait her (he's not too concerned about keeping her happy in the Order!).
Actually, I think he is jealous of Molly. She has a closer relationship than he does with Harry, Molly can actually be seen with him, and Harry obviously cares about Molly, as well. Sirius strikes me rather like a kid with a new bike (not that I'm saying he doesn't care about Harry). He wants to show it off, he wants everyone to be impressed at how much it cost, etc. However, he doesn't want anyone else to play with it, and he doesn't want anyone else's to be better than his. After all, he is more adolescent in his behaviors than any other characters except the teenagers (and not all of those).

What I'm saying is that Sirius choose a particularly inappropriate time to add him to the guest list. From what he himself says, as well as Molly's exasperated "For the last time, Mundungus" (p. 81), Mundungus has spent plenty of time in the house, enjoying the hospitality...Sirius just seems to choose an especially inopportune evening.
Oh, I agree with the bad timing, but sometimes Molly doesn't seem to be very...oh, how do I put this? She often takes things at face value, without looking any deeper, or she judges too quickly. She is a good person and a good mother, but she tends to make instant decisions and unless someone can point out the error of her ways, she seems to stay that way. Like her opinion of Hermione in GoF. She knew Hermione by then, and knew of her from Ron. Yet she allowed a paper to alter her opinion of Hermione without attempting to verify the facts. It took Harry flat out telling her that she was mistaken, for her to realize that it wasn't true.

I do agree with your opinion of Mundungus, and of Sirius's general attitude during OotP, especially with the whole "what should we tell Harry" fiasco. But, I feel that Molly is out of line about the Mundungus issue.

What a contrast. Lupin's mom should be proud: he didn't, apparently, help--unless he was one of the unnamed "others" who sets the table, but what a nice bit of subtle character development: he's the only person who compliments the dinner, and I really like the detail that he serves Molly, after all of her work. Go, Lupin!
That is a great detail I've never noticed before! You are such a careful reader! I bet JKR is proud of that little detail, too, since it speaks volumes and is an obvious contrast to Sirius.
I neglected to add that neither Sirius nor Mundungus (isn't his name slang for tobacco, or something to do with the evil weed, according to JKR?
Yes, I believe Mundungus is a kind of smelly tobacco. How Fitting!:)
And that's clearly it: Snape can't wait to get out of the house, even if it means missing a great meal, because he can't breathe! : ) !!!!!!!!!! (Okay--random bit of utter, inexcusable trivia: Alan Rickman doesn't smoke in films--this was discovered by watching Die Hard and most of Quigley Down Under and shouting out the discovery at the same time as the other AR fanatic watching the DVD's...In both, once AR has lit the tobacco product, he never takes another drag. He fiddles with it, but he never again puts it in his mouth, in long, continuous shots...Okay--yes, I really love trivia!)
I really need to watch all these Rickman films - you could certainly beat me at a Trivia Contest!
So, do you think that's a comment on freedom? (Dobby/Socks) or perhaps a symbol of Dung's carelessness about Harry (DD/MirrorOfErised/Socks=VMwarWonByHarry)?
Well, anytime JKR mentions "socks," I pay attention. I think carelessness is a good way of looking at it. Molly folds Harry's socks and is overprotective/Mundungus is careless with Harry and smells like "burning socks."
In fact, Sirius seems to me, in the whole scene, to be looking to cause trouble--in addition to everything else, his comment that he would've "welcomed a dementor attack" (p. 82). Is he taking out a fit of bad temper and jealousy that he couldn't go rescue Harry on everyone else in the house? I tend to think that, although I also think he just dislikes Molly, period,m and wants to do anything to bait her (he's not too concerned about keeping her happy in the Order!).
Yes, I'm sure it irked Sirius that he couldn't be in the Advance Guard.
Actually, I think he is jealous of Molly. She has a closer relationship than he does with Harry, Molly can actually be seen with him, and Harry obviously cares about Molly, as well. Sirius strikes me rather like a kid with a new bike (not that I'm saying he doesn't care about Harry). He wants to show it off, he wants everyone to be impressed at how much it cost, etc. However, he doesn't want anyone else to play with it, and he doesn't want anyone else's to be better than his. After all, he is more adolescent in his behaviors than any other characters except the teenagers (and not all of those).
Excellent point, and I agree!
I do agree with your opinion of Mundungus, and of Sirius's general attitude during OotP, especially with the whole "what should we tell Harry" fiasco. But, I feel that Molly is out of line about the Mundungus issue.
Personally, I think it is just a sign of high standards. Molly doesn't want someone smoking in front of her children all night, and they all have to breathe the air. I just realized her children have been setting off "dung bombs" :lol: so maybe it is a bit hypocritical. Maybe she smells the dung bombs and thinks it is due to Mundungus? ;)

At any rate, the Weasleys don't smoke, and Mundungus is a smoker. It is an common problem, even for muggles. My brother-in-law smokes cigars, but not inside my house. :no: I'm not being holier-than-thou about smoking ~ in fact, I grew up in a house full of chain smokers, so I have nothing but sympathy for people who smoke, and I'm pretty tolerant of it as a rule. But I just don't like the smell of cigars . . . (Of course, if my children started smoking I would probably go as ballistic as Molly or Mrs. Black, and ground them for life. :grumble: )

I don't know, I like him now, after seeing what he went through as a child and teen, no one deserves that, but there's no reason to take it out on Harry... I'm still waiting to find out some important stuff about him later, like his patronus!

I hope his Patronus is a raven or crow or some dark bird because of the shape of his nose

Personally, I think it is just a sign of high standards. Molly doesn't want someone smoking in front of her children all night, and they all have to breathe the air.
:rotfl:
I assume that the reason that Molly was even allowing her children there in the first place was to protect them more adequately than was possible at the burrow. It was offered by Sirius as headquarters for the Order, but it is still his home. Unfortunately, Molly would have to choose between the lesser of two evils there. If she wants to protect her children she has to put up with Sirius's attitude and Mundungus's less than admirable traits. I can't accuse her of not talking to Mundungus about the issues she has, because nothing appears in canon, but I rather suspect that if she did, Mundungus paid her no mind. After all, he didn't feel that dereliction of duty was a detrimental action so why would he be concerned about the affect he might have on the Weasley children? As for speaking to Sirius, it appeared that the only one he was willing to listen to in OotP was Lupin, and even that seemed grudging, at best.

Well, I personally find smoking highly offensive, but then again, no one in my family smokes, it smells terrible, and at least two of my siblings are allergic to cigarette smoke.

But, yes, Molly does have some right being exasperated with Dung (that's a telling nickname). He's like a dinner guest who uses your toilet and misses, upturns the table, and leaves you with the tab. Hm, seems my imagination still works at this hour.
But Sirius does seem to be provoking Molly a bit, maybe unintentionally at first. It sems like he's lashing out because he's stuck back in a house he ran away from, listening to the interesting goings on (from Snape no less, he left just before this) that he can't be part of.

Anyway, I think Snape (to bring him back to this thread) doesn't stay for dinner because why would he want to stay with a bunch of people he hates? At least at Hogwarts he gets to eat at the staff table, away from annoying students.

Oh, and subtle, that's some cool catches with the random trivia. I love random trivia, I just absorb it. Some more of it: I think on AFI's (American Film Institute) list of top deaths, Alan Rickman's in Die Hard (something about a 30 story drop) was in the top five. Number four, I think. Er, maybe that was Darth Vader on the bad guys list. I'll have to double check that.

I go back and forth with my ideas about how much the Marauders knew about Snape's activities. On the one hand Sirius didn't know for sure that Snape was a DE until the end of GoF. But on the other, Snape's comment to Harry after the ShriekingShack in PoA implies that James' death was caused by trusting Sirius over Snape (or at least I read it that way) - which would seem to mean that the guys knew Snape was providing info but didn't trust it/him.I like that idea about whether the Marauders new about what Snape was doing back then because for all we know Dumbledore could have been personally training Snape to spy and using the Marauders as the perfect teaching tool. Snape did learn the art of spying from someone, unless he was a born natural at it. There could be another side to Snape's Worst Memory though that could lead to Dumbledore finally trusting Snape. James and the rest of the Marauders might have seen Snape slipping slowly away, moving from Dumbledore's loyalty to the death eaters’ side. I find it interesting that one minute Snape and James are fighting and yet in another memory James is saving Snape's life. I just wonder whether James felt Snape was a victim being used by the death eaters and may have gone out of his way to save Snape's life again or was involved in convincing Snape that he was on the wrong side. Perhaps Snape and James came to some reconciliation just before James died. This could explain why Snape's worst memory is his worst memory of hurting James in the fight. Snape would have known Harry was going to run off and help Sirius Black in OotP because that would have been what James would have done (Snape keeps saying Harry is just like his father and had a knack of getting himself in to trouble). As we saw in PoA, when Harry believes in something and wants it, nothing will get in his way, not even Snape as he sent Snape flying in Shrieking Shack. So this could explain why Snape went to Dumbledore because he knew he was not going to be capable of stopping Harry leave the school that night.

Snape referring to Harry as like James might just be Snape’s way of saying your not going to get yourself killed like your dad did.

I know Hans Gruber is up there on best film death and best film villain lists. The Die Hard drop is a good one--it really is Alan Rickman falling about 25 feet backwards...because no stuntperson will fall backwards, but AR didn't know that. And his expression: comes from the fact that the stunt coordinator told him, "On the count of three"--and then let go on two........

I don't think there was any reconciliation between James and Snape before James' death. Snape displays no indications of any softening of his hatred. It seems more typical of Snape's contrary nature that, despite loathing James, he nevertheless attempted to save his life. Which--life debt stuff aside--makes for an excellent mirror of the Willow Incident. Although I don't think James did that for Snape's sake, but rather for Lupin and Sirius. Both James and Snape seem to draw the line at the idea of the other one's dying; James also considers the affect on his friends...perhaps Snape is thinking of the good of the Order, albeit that's a big guess, since we know nothing of James' work for the Order.

A passing thought--again....more??--on Sirius' invite of Mungdungus. The comment about its being his house brought it to mind. The ownership certainly gives Sirius rights--although tempered by the fact that his house isn't just a house; it's a headquarters--to invite whom he pleases. But I think there's a little dominance game going on. Much as he later informs Snape that he's not to give orders in Sirius' house, he's doing it to Molly with the invitation. He knows she dislikes Mungdungus, but he'll make her cook for him, whether she likes it or not--unless she wants to make a bigger scene, which clearly she doesn't.

Another thought...Ron says that Snape never eats there. One does wonder if, in fact, he's ever been invited. Somehow, I really doubt that...It may not be Snape's choice that he doesn't eat with any Order members; he may never be included...as I can't imagine Sirius permitting that one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tane
.... I just realized how important Snape's job really is to the order as they held a special meeting just to hear his report according the Fred and George. I keep wondering what Snape had to report so soon into the book. We know that there was some sort of map involved so perhaps what ever Snape was reporting during the meeting had something to do with that map...
I think his report was about VM wanting the prophecy and the map was of the MoM, especially the floor that the DoM is located on and they're trying to figure the best position to hide the Order members who act as guards on the DoM door

There's a thread about those papers, it's called The Building Plans of the Order (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11833)--it's very interesting, really. Check it if you like.

Molly "thinks inviting him to stay to dinner is going too far" (p. 87)--which it seems to be, since he can't seem to behave particularly well, and Sirius doesn't seem to have much interest in getting him to be somewhat less of a supreme irritant to Molly--especially since Sirius is well aware of her feelings. And to choose the very first night Harry is there, after Mundungus was the one who abandoned his post...Sirius, not thinking too clearly.

I think that Sirius invited Mundungus in order to show that he still is the owner of the house, that he still can do something despite the fact that he cannot go out. But I guess this act is more important for Sirius than any other person present there--Padfoot has to prove to himself that he still is a free man that can do whatever he wants to.

Well, anytime JKR mentions "socks," I pay attention. I think carelessness is a good way of looking at it. Molly folds Harry's socks and is overprotective/Mundungus is careless with Harry and smells like "burning socks."

And also Tonks mentioned socks when she was packing Harry at the beginning of OotP: she talked about her mother who knew how to fold the socks using magic :)

I know Hans Gruber is up there on best film death and best film villain lists. The Die Hard drop is a good one--it really is Alan Rickman falling about 25 feet backwards...because no stuntperson will fall backwards, but AR didn't know that. And his expression: comes from the fact that the stunt coordinator told him, "On the count of three"--and then let go on two........

:rotfl: I think I'll have to watch that film again... and oh, here, Snape! See, this post isn't totally off topic!

Another thought...Ron says that Snape never eats there. One does wonder if, in fact, he's ever been invited. Somehow, I really doubt that...It may not be Snape's choice that he doesn't eat with any Order members; he may never be included...as I can't imagine Sirius permitting that one!
Ever since I read that quote about "Snape never eats here," it's perversely made me want to see Snape eating there! :)

I've never been sure if JKR wrote that line to play into the idea that Snape was a vampire, and therefore never eats? Many people used to say that, although he isn't a vampire and he actually does eat at school; he is there for every feast and nearly every meal except breakfast.

My other idea after re-reading the books is that Snape didn't trust Kreacher/Sirius/The Weasley Twins to leave his food alone, a Moody-like paranoia.

Maybe the best answer is just that he'll tolerate Sirius, but he won't "break bread" with him. I understand this reason the most. :tu: There's an old saying that if you eat enough meals together, you'll be friends for life. Snape doesn't want there to be any chance of that with Sirius. :evil:


But, yes, Molly does have some right being exasperated with Dung (that's a telling nickname). He's like a dinner guest who uses your toilet and misses, upturns the table, and leaves you with the tab. Hm, seems my imagination still works at this hour.
Just for fun, I looked up "Mundungus" again. This is the best explaination of that word I have seen:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-mun1.htm
MUNDUNGUS

Rubbish; refuse.

The Spanish have a perfectly respectable word mondongo for the tripes, the stomach linings of cows or oxen that are served as food. Many people adore tripe, especially served with onions, but others find it mildly repulsive. Hence our slang use of tripe for worthless stuff or rubbish. The English borrowed the Spanish word in the seventeenth century, at first with the same sense , but then hacked it about a bit to fit English mouths and applied it figuratively to any offal or refuse.

Later, it was used in particular for a foul-smelling form of cheap tobacco. In his Journal of A Voyage to Lisbon, published in 1755, Henry Fielding wrote: “It was in truth no other than a tobacco of the mundungus species”. It has largely gone out of use, except when an author is attempting to reinforce an historical period, as Patrick O’Brian does in HMS Surprise: “If you have finished, Stephen, pray smoke away. I am sure you bought some of your best mundungus in Mahon”.

Oh, and subtle, that's some cool catches with the random trivia. I love random trivia, I just absorb it. Some more of it: I think on AFI's (American Film Institute) list of top deaths, Alan Rickman's in Die Hard (something about a 30 story drop) was in the top five. Number four, I think. Er, maybe that was Darth Vader on the bad guys list. I'll have to double check that.
I know Hans Gruber is up there on best film death and best film villain lists. The Die Hard drop is a good one--it really is Alan Rickman falling about 25 feet backwards...because no stuntperson will fall backwards, but AR didn't know that. And his expression: comes from the fact that the stunt coordinator told him, "On the count of three"--and then let go on two........

Now I've got to see that! I'm taking notes on these movies, LOL.

I kind of was waiting in OotP for Molly to insist that Snape stay for a meal--look at how she tries to stuff Harry until he bursts every time he shows up for a meal: imagine what she would try to do to the skinny Professor?!

Seriously--I was waiting for the mirror to the Mundungus invitation. But...not to be...

I always just figured that there would be no reason for Snape to want to stick around and socialize, since Sirius was there. I can't imagine, under any circumstances, Sirius extending an invitation...accepting one would seem *** fast train to indigestion. Sirius is upfront about his hostility, and he claims Snape has been taking verbal potshots at him, so...not exactly the foundation for a peaceful meal.

I think that Sirius invited Mundungus in order to show that he still is the owner of the house, that he still can do something despite the fact that he cannot go out. But I guess this act is more important for Sirius than any other person present there--Padfoot has to prove to himself that he still is a free man that can do whatever he wants to.
Which would have been fine, but Sirius has little respect for anyone else. He seems to respect Dung (after reading SIP's definition there are whole levels of new meaning for that diminutive), but his behavior is lacking when it comes to others. Again, I think it is jealousy, but in that I think it is related to his lack of usefulness in the Order.

SIP, the way you phrased that about smoking struck me as funny, although it probably wasn't intended that way (I do have a strange sense of humor at times). I hope I didn't offend you by thinking what you said was funny. Two things about it, though, then I'll get back on topic. One, the smell might bother her, but given the assumed ability of wizards to avoid "mundane" harm, I doubt her children would be endangered by it. Second, most people I know that smoke pipes, smoke considerably less than people who smoke ciggarettes. As a matter of fact, when my dad quit smoking he did it by switching from ciggarettes to a pipe.

I believe that Snape doesn't want to stay for dinner because it is Sirius's house. Sirius did try to kill Snape and shows no remorse for that fact. I, myself, wouldn't sit down to dinner, even if others wanted me there, if it was in the house of someone that I felt that way about. I'm sure that Snape knew he wasn't wanted there and I'm sure Sirius would have pointed it out to him if he had decided to stick around for dinner. And who could choke down food in that kind of atmosphere, anyway?

ETA: and a score of 9.0 for synchronized posting.

I agree that Snape didn't eat at #12 because:

1) he wasn't invited - it's only a month after school has let out, the Order hasn't been there long and I think everyone is quite aware that this is Sirius HOUSE still as opposed to HQ. DD as head of the Order might would invite Snape over Sirius' preference, but I don't think Molly would at that point

2) he didn't want to eat with Sirius - many of those on this thread who had been bullied have pointed out how hard it must have been to shake Sirius' hand, dinner would have been exponentially more difficult.

I have to admit that I dont quite get your idea of Snape/Sirius relationship :huh: It sounds like it was all just Sirius fault, like he was the only one expressing immature behaviour and living in the past. But they are both stunted. Sirius attempt to relieve the past are sad and pathetic. As is Snape fixation on his school days and James Potter- the man who is dead from 15 years-he can't forgive a DEAD MAN and verbally abused an 11-year-old Harry in his first Potions class because he looks like the dead James Potter :huh: he stopped teaching him Occlumency- stopped doing something that was crucial for Harry and the Order - because Harry saw him in the Pensieve. How it is more mature than Sirius' silly and childish comments?
He might not have been using nicknames like Sirius in the kitchen scene but it doesnt make him better. He cant bear being in Sirius' presence without making a snide comment. Sirius didnt CLAIM it- we have seen this. Snape knew how to strike, he isnt as temperamental as Sirius but he is no more mature than him. Besides- he could leave that house and do whatever he wanted- you cant say the same about Sirius. Snape has a job, a life, and a freedom and still is a pain in the ***.

And about the whole dinner' deal- really :rolleyes: Sirius was not the only one who could have issues with dinners with Snape. Ron and Harry simply dream about this :rolleyes: . Bill doesnt like him. Fred and George dont like him. Moody and Snape seem to share some very unpleasant memories and I think both of them would prefer to stay away from each other. It is not just Sirius that's the problem here- though of course he seemed to dislike Snape the most- it is the fact that half of the people in this house cant stand Severus Snape- and boy- not without reasons.

Which would have been fine, but Sirius has little respect for anyone else. He seems to respect Dung (after reading SIP's definition there are whole levels of new meaning for that diminutive), but his behavior is lacking when it comes to others. Again, I think it is jealousy, but in that I think it is related to his lack of usefulness in the Order.

I should have elaborated more, I'm sorry. I agree with you that Sirius is egoistic and egocentric, and because of that the main aim of inviting Mundungus was to help himself--he did not care much about Molly and her children. Padfoot needed to prove to himself that he was still someone, although the secondary motive might have been to show his superiority to Mrs. Weasley (but I'm not entirely sure if he had any secondary motives, as he seemed to act impulsively for most of the time).

Uhm...hasnt it occured to anybody that Sirius might have invited Mundugus simply because HE- holly ****- LIKED HIM? Not because he wanted to upset Molly, not because he wanted to show her that he is in charge here not because he had some horrible terrible hidden motives but simply because he liked the man?
Sigh.

I suppose Sirius could be extraordinarily fond of Mundungus ...Although it hardly seems likely, since Sirius sits at the table and talks to Harry, while Mundungus sits by, ignores their conversation, and cases Sirius' silver. Nor does Sirius reveal a close friendship with Mundungus to Harry when he speaks aside to Harry about Mundungus:

"Molly doesn't approve of Mundungus....He's useful....Knows all the crooks--well, he would, seeing as he's one himself. But he's also very loyal to Dumbledore, who helped him out of a tight spot once. It pasy to have someone like Dung around, he hears things we don't. But Molly thinks inviting him to dinner is going too far. She hasn't forgiven him for slipping off duty when he was supposed to be tailing you" (pp. 86-87, US hardcover).

Doesn't much sound as if Sirius thinks of Mundungus as a friend--only as someone who can provide a service to the Order (of course, that service seems to be a bit limited, as he can't quite handle all duties).

As for the people in the house not liking Snape...Yeah--Sirius and the kids. Sirius doesn't give Snape the slightest credit for what he's doing for the Order, and the students don't have an idea. Bill is the only person who might. We see absolutely no interaction between Moody and Snape in the entire OotP: Moody was suspicious of Snape in the flashback to the hearings in "The Pensieve" in GoF--so, Moody expressed his suspicions approximately 15 years ago. The Moody who actually spoke to Snape in GoF was Barty Crouch Jr., not even Moody.

In contrast, Lupin, Dumbledore, McGonagall, and Molly all, at some point during OotP, indicate that they have no problem with Snape whatsoever. Tonks and Arthur are neutral--they express no indications at all--about Sirius, either, for that matter. When the Advance Guard finds out that Snape has arrived for the meeting, they react with "noises of interest and excitement" (p.61); after, "They were whispering excitedly together. In the very center of the group Harry saw the dark, greasy-haired head and prominent nose of his least favorite teacher at Hogwarts, Professor Snape" (p. 76). Harry's the only one who tosses a negative in there--none of the adults considers what Snape has to say as not worth hearing because they dislike him so incredibly intensely....

Yeah--the fact that Snape doesn't eat at 12GP seems to be a pretty simple aspect to figure out. Why would Sirius invite him, and why would Snape accept the invitation? I can't see that the situation has anything to do with anybody else in the house.

I have to admit that I dont quite get your idea of Snape/Sirius relationship
This is the Dev of Sev thread. We have discussed aspects of Snape that range from positive attributes to negative attributes. However, when we discuss anyone else in a negative light, we are often accused of thinking that Snape is all good, and everyone else is evil, so that we can justify liking Snape. :sigh:

My two favorite characters are Snape and Sirius. They both have flaws. In this instance, we were discussing Sirius's flaws, not Snape's, in the GP moments. We were also discussing the role of the adults, not the children.

Very neatly stated, clkginny.

I think that we run into trouble because we here on this thread tend to focus very tightly on very specific ideas and analyze them blow by blow...for pages (the phrase "bunch of nerds" is running through my head right now...). So, I suppose, when somebody just drops in for a moment, he/she gets the idea that that focused discussion is all we've ever considered.

Although having three versions of this thread might be a hint that we've doscussed at least one other idea at some point.

: ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I can not see Snape trusting Harry after he intruded into the Pensieve to reveal all those secrets and like wise I can not see Harry trust Snape for keeping the secrets and taking those emotions out on Harry. Then again you have to ask yourself why Harry would be so cautious of Snape even after Dumbledore tells Harry that he trusts him. Perhaps Harry can see something us adults just can not see in Snape. Perhaps Harry is picking up signs of Snape’s true nature underneath and not over reacting to Snape at all through out the books.

I think that we run into trouble because we here on this thread tend to focus very tightly on very specific ideas and analyze them blow by blow...for pages (the phrase "bunch of nerds" is running through my head right now...).
:rotfl: I resemble that remark.

Very nicely stated, yourself, Subtle. ;)

I can not see Snape trusting Harry after he intruded into the Pensieve to reveal all those secrets and like wise I can not see Harry trust Snape for keeping the secrets and taking those emotions out on Harry.
It may end up being the catalyst for understanding between them, if not actual appreciation or admiration. They now should realize that they have a lot in common from their respective childhoods, as well as the fact that they are fighting on the same side.

Then again you have to ask yourself why Harry would be so cautious of Snape even after Dumbledore tells Harry that he trusts him.
Personal antagonism has a tendency to blind us to any positive trait that may exist in those we dislike. This is even more true in adolescents.

Perhaps Harry can see something us adults just can not see in Snape. Perhaps Harry is picking up signs of Snape’s true nature underneath and not over reacting to Snape at all through out the books.
Subtle has an excellent editorial on the subject of Snape's true nature. I would suggest it as good reading material for anyone who is questioning what Snape's nature is. I believe it is called Motivation Matters.

In contrast, Lupin, Dumbledore, McGonagall, and Molly all, at some point during OotP, indicate that they have no problem with Snape whatsoever. Tonks and Arthur are neutral--they express no indications at all--about Sirius, either, for that matter. When the Advance Guard finds out that Snape has arrived for the meeting, they react with "noises of interest and excitement" (p.61); after, "They were whispering excitedly together. In the very center of the group Harry saw the dark, greasy-haired head and prominent nose of his least favorite teacher at Hogwarts, Professor Snape" (p. 76). Harry's the only one who tosses a negative in there--none of the adults considers what Snape has to say as not worth hearing because they dislike him so incredibly intensely....
When I was reading OotP for the first time, I sort of held my breath at the beginning of the book. As I read about the Advance Guard and then about Grimmauld Place, I kept thinking that if JKR didn't put Snape there, in the headquarters - actually the extremely "Slytherin" Headquarters - then I wouldn't even believe he was on the good side. I heaved a sigh of relief when she put him in the middle of that group. It was only on the re-read that I realized the group exclaimed with excitement. We know they are exclaiming about Snape because Sirius makes that remark about Snape and his "reports."
I think that we run into trouble because we here on this thread tend to focus very tightly on very specific ideas and analyze them blow by blow...for pages (the phrase "bunch of nerds" is running through my head right now...). So, I suppose, when somebody just drops in for a moment, he/she gets the idea that that focused discussion is all we've ever considered.
Yes, and there are threads where you can discuss Sirius and Snape, for instance Deconstructing the Marauders, or Layers.

And I wear my "Overanalyzing Nerd" title proudly! (bows)
Subtle has an excellent editorial on the subject of Snape's true nature. I would suggest it as good reading material for anyone who is questioning what Snape's nature is. I believe it is called Motivation Matters.
Here it is!
Motivation Matters (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-subtlescience01.shtml)

Thanks for the recommendation, clkginny...and the compliment *blush*.

In a way, Harry is seeing something that is in Snape's character: Snape hates him.

Most people--never mind a 16-year-old--have a very difficult time reconciling the idea that someone can be unpleasant...even actively hate you, and yet still be doing a good job. In the books, Harry has yet to figure it out, that Snape is trustworthy and does good things (including saving Harry's life), but loathes Harry, and that none of those things has anything to do with the other.

Even Hermione can't get it yet, during the first Potions class in OotP:

"I did think he might be a bit better this year," said Hermione in a disappointed voice. "I mean...you know..." She looked carefully around; there were half a dozen empty seats on either side of them and nobody was passing the table. "...Now that he's in the Order and everything" (p. 235, US hardcover).

That's it, right there, in a nutshell.

First of all, even Hermione fails to realize that Snape has always been in the Order; this wasn't something that just happened. He was in the Order on the very first day of class in PS/SS...and he hated Harry then. Plus, his being in the Order has nothing to do with how he regards Harry and his friends--or how he teaches his classes. But, being a kid, Hermione still thinks there has to be some sort of balance--some 'fairness' to the world that makes sense to her.

Harry briefly considers in one of the books--help! I can't remember where it is to find the quote (and that is soooo bad for a nerd!!!)--that Snape saved his life in PS/SS, but he can't understand why...and why that doesn't alter Snape's behavior toward him. He can only see Snape through his own filter: he cannot see shadings of character. And it's not just the animosity between him and Snape that does this--it's a kid's tendency anyway.

I did not know members on here wrote the editorials. Motivation Matters was a very interesting read but what lead you to believe this:Snape defies Voldemort, having concluded that Voldemort represents immorality.I found it interesting that Snape and Harry have similar morals as this would fit why the sorting hat wanted Harry in Slytherin. Remember the sorting hat stated that Harry would learn a lot if he was placed in Slytherin. I think now I know why because the sorting hat new Snape was a good teacher and would have helped Harry more if he had chosen Slytherin House. Harry choose Gryffindor simply because of what others had told him but he thought to think that he could still turn out to be a good Slytherin that could still fight against Voldemort but under Snape's and Dumbledore's tutoring.

I haven't posted anything for a long time, but I have been lurking and reading all these pages of posts!

It struck me that maybe Snape is not just angry with Sirius and Lupin after all these years, but with himself for letting Sirius still get to him. Snape is a full grown man, a Potions Master, a Head of House, and, most importantly, one of the most needed members of the Order as their top spy. He is a man who can lie and control himself in front of Voldemort, the most feared wizard ever, but he loses his cool when faced with...a slightly off kilter ex-con, a timid werewolf, and a 15 year old boy. Snape has obviously been damaged by bullying, as almost 20 years later he still lets his old bullies (and a son of a bully) get the upper hand by letting Sirius's remarks effect him. After confrontations with Sirius (especially the one in the kitchen), I have a feeling Snape regrets his actions, and may have wished he behaved less childishly. Sirius's and Snape's meeting in the kitchen, I felt, showed Snape regressing as a result of Sirius's immature behavior, which was present throughout OotP.

I know this was a bit off what you guys were posting about, but it was just a thought I had. Also, it's funny you guys were talking about the beginning of OotP, because I just re-read that section this morning, and had never noticed that Snape was giving a major report. Then I came online, and everybody was posting about it, hehe!

Much to my relief, I finally found Harry's confusion over Snape's nature. Really, it was enough to give a nerd a twitch, not remembering...


"Oh Ron," said Hermione, shaking her head skeptically, "we thought that Snape was trying to kill Harry before, and it turned out he was saving Harry's life, remember?"
....
Harry looked at Hermione, thinking...it was true that Snape had saved his life once, but the odd thing was, Snape definitely loathed him, just as he'd loathed Harry's father when they had been at school together. Snape loved taking points from Harry, and had certainly never missed an opporunity to give him punishments, or even to suggest that he should be suspended from the school (pp. 480-481, GoF, US paper).

Harry just can't wrap his mind around this--what appears to him to be a contradiction: he still sees the world as black or white. There aren't ambiguities or paradoxes; despite the fact that it was Sirius who said that the world isn't divided into good people and DEs, Harry's dilemma reflects thinking very similar to Sirius' all-or-nothing judgments--a good reason for why Harry finds Sirius' low opinion of Snape so agreeable.

At some point, Harry may realize that Snape doesn't have to be nice or fair or anything else of that ilk in order to be good. So far, in the books, Harry's been getting the idea that people who seem too nice or sweet can be bad, in varying degrees--Quirrell, Lockhart, Umbridge. Harry just hasn't been able to reverse it and look past Snape's exterior to realize what's underneath--he's too caught up in the idea that "Severus does seem the type" (p. 288, PS/SS, US paper). Ironically, it was Quirrell who laid it out for Harry quite plainly:

"But Snape always seemed to hate me so much."
"Oh, he does," said Quirrell casually, "heavens, yes. He was at Hogwarts with your father, didn't you know? They loathed each other. But he never wanted you dead" (p. 290).

Hey--the bad guy's got a point!

First of all: subtle, I've never actually seen Die Hard. I think the next time it's on TV I'll watch the last half hour, just to see his expression. And I also am quite the nerd, I find it very fun to mess with people by being smarter than them.

OK, on to business. I've said it before, and I'll undoubtedly say it again: Snape is coming to realize that he and Harry have a great deal in common. It's making Snape seem a bit more human, which I'm sure he doesn't want.

Also: Snape deals with bullies as an adult much more maturely (is that a word?) than he did when he was a student. In the kitchen scene, he's gotten the upper hand. Between him and Sirius, I'd say Snape is overwhelmingly winning. No one can best Snape at a verbal fight. You'll note Sirius gets louder and more out of control and even resorts to immature name calling (methinks he wishes he was 15 again, when he could take Snape). Snape, on the contrary, is using every word with laser-precision towards his opponent. Like I said, no one can best Snape in a verbal fight.

Along on the bully topic, don't you think that Voldy counts as the biggest, baddest bully of all time? He only likes his followers when they're helping him. And I stated a few pages ago, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that Snape's been on the wrong end of a Crucio. Yet he can still keep his cool around the most evil person around.
Maybe Snape's more confident about facing Voldy because DD's got his back, but with Sirius and Harry, they're all "on the same side." (That's in quotes for a reason.)

Holy frijoles, this is rambling. But I've learned that just dumping your brain on the page is a good way to get ideas out (that's what makes me so good at pulling essays out of nowhere). ;)

"But Snape always seemed to hate me so much."
"Oh, he does," said Quirrell casually, "heavens, yes. He was at Hogwarts with your father, didn't you know? They loathed each other. But he never wanted you dead" (p. 290).

Hey--the bad guy's got a point! Just an aside, I think this qualifies for canon that Quirrel was at Hogwarts for at least an overlap of a year with James and Snape (as canon 'fodder' to a discussion earlier on this thread) - altho' I suppose Quirrel might have been told this.

Yes, subtle, QuirrellMort definitely has a point about Snape. :agree: :tu: That seems to be a lesson Harry still seems to have to learn though. Not everyone who shows a nice face is a goodie (which includes even Fake Moody who tried to help him), but also not everyone who is unfriendly with him is a baddie. I for one would prefer a sharp-tongued but honest person any day over someone who does nasty things, or talks badly about me, behind my back. :agree:

Just an aside, I think this qualifies for canon that Quirrel was at Hogwarts for at least an overlap of a year with James and Snape (as canon 'fodder' to a discussion earlier on this thread) - altho' I suppose Quirrel might have been told this.

It might be a possibility, but it isn't necessarily proof of an overlap at school, or even such a close one.

Firstly, Quirrell had Voldemort on the back on his head who most certainly knows one or two personal things about Snape. :evil: He was his master and is very likely to know of the constant enmity between Snape and one half of a pair that "thrice defied him".

Secondly, it's Harry's first year at Hogwarts. The famous Boy Who Lived must have been the topic of chat at the High Table, and in that context someone of the older colleagues might have explained Snape's dislike to Quirrell (I don't see Snape revealing such stuff to him himself).

Thirdly, even if they were at school together it doesn't have to mean that they were just a year apart. In the Pensieve scene Snape and the Marauders were fifth-years, and around the lake there were loads of onlookers - some amused, some apprehensive. If James really was as well-known in "hexing other people just because he could" as Lily says and Lupin confirms, and if even later Snape was "a special case", their enmity is likely to have been known throughout the school . Even if the Whomping Willow Incident wasn't made public, the tension between the two of them must have been tangible whenever they met.

(And just as an aside, if Quirrell was ever part of the "Slytherin cross-year network" he'd have been told anyway... sorry, that's one of my pet theories. ;) )

Hmm, we seem to be getting closer and closer to the 1500 limit... I bet we'll have a v.4 in less than two days. :p

Hmmm--and v.4 will pretty much start with HBP...*squee* I may implode--and then I may implode again if I read HBP and don't get answers!

Voldemort moves into a whole other category from bully--he's a psychopath, pure and simple: he's classic case. He wields power, but it's not in the same sense that the Marauders bullied. Voldemort plays on a whole other level.

Considering Voldemort's tendencies, it's certain that Snape has been Crucio'd--my argument has always been that he was walking off to be Crucio'd when he left at the end of GoF: if he didn't convince Voldemort of his loyalty, then he'd be killed outright; if he did convince him, he'd still have to be punished.

Working my way through OotP today, I found the following bit that knocked me back a bit, when Hermione wonders if the DADA student group is a good idea afetr all:

"hermione, it was your idea in the first place!" said Ron indignantly.
"I know," said Hermione, twisting her fingers together. "But after talking to Snuffles..."
"But he's all for it," said Harry.
"Yes," said Hermione, staring at the window again. "Yes, that's what made me think maybe it wasn't a good idea after all...."
....
"Let's get this straight," said Harry angrily, as they put their bags back on the floor. "Sirius agrees with us, so you don't think we should do it anymore?"
Hermione looked tense and rather miserable. Now staring at her own hands she said, "Do you honestly trust his judgment?"
"Yes, I do!" said Harry at once. "He's always given us great advice!"
....
it was a few moments before Hermione spoke again and it sounded as though she was choosing her words very carefully.
"You don't think he has become...sort of...reckless...since he's been cooped up in Grimmauld Place? You don't think he's kind of...living through us?"
"What d'you mean, 'living through us'?" Harry retorted.
"I mean...well, I think he'd love to be forming secret defense societies under the nose of someone from the Ministry....I think he's really frsutrated at how little he can do where he is...so I think he's keen to kind of...egg us on."
Ron looked utterly perplexed.
"Sirius is right," he said, "you do sound just like my mother" (pp. 377-378, US hardcover).

Hm. Out of the mouths of babes.

Firstly, Quirrell had Voldemort on the back on his head who most certainly knows one or two personal things about Snape.Yes, but VM would have needed to actually tell Quirrel they shared a head, but not a mind.
The famous Boy Who Lived must have been the topic of chat at the High Table, and in that context someone of the older colleagues might have explained Snape's dislike to Quirrell (I don't see Snape revealing such stuff to him himself).Okay - got me there, but would you discuss that in front of Snape?
...even if they were at school together it doesn't have to mean that they were just a year apart.Actually, I meant that they were only at school together for one year - like 7th yr Snape - 1st yr Quirrel

But, you're right - I'm wrong - it can't be considered proof

Okay - got me there, but would you discuss that in front of Snape?
You don't have to discuss it in front of him, but I have never yet worked anywhere that they didn't talk about you when you weren't there. Besides, Hagrid is a fount of information anytime it is something he shouldn't talk about. :p

"But Snape always seemed to hate me so much."
"Oh, he does," said Quirrell casually, "heavens, yes. He was at Hogwarts with your father, didn't you know? They loathed each other. But he never wanted you dead" (p. 290).I totally missed this point, that line does suggest that Snape defied Voldemort. Quirrell states, 'but he never wanted you dead' but does that just refer to the Quidditch Pitch day when Snape tried to counter curse the curse Quirrell tried to kill Harry with. Quirrell uses the word never suggesting that as a baby Snape did not want him to die. So when did Snape defy Voldemort for the first time to save Harry's life because I get the feeling he did that on the same day Voldemort tried to kill Harry.

Lily protects Snape in that memory but Snape could not protect her against Voldemort. Not only that but Snape might have attacked James and killed him on the night Voldemort tried kill baby Harry. I think Snape's Worst Memory mirrors a little of what happened the night Voldemort killed Lily and this is why it hurts him so much.

Harry has Lily's eyes and every time Snape looks through Harry's eyes while performing Ligamency he can see Lily's eyes stirring back at him. You know that must make it really difficult for Snape's to find out what Harry is up to if he keeps getting feelings about Lily. It might also suggest why those emotions and thoughts regarding Lily where placed into the Pensieve when training Harry in Occlumency. Snape may have just placed those memories in the Pensieve so that he could teach Harry to the best of his ability. When Harry looks into the Pensieve and can see that memory, no wonder Snape throws him out and then will not teach Harry. Snape probably thinks it is a waste of time him teaching Harry because that memory of Lily will be there in both there heads every time he tries to train Harry in the art of Occlumency.

... Quirrell states, 'but he never wanted you dead' but does that just refer to the Quidditch Pitch day when Snape tried to counter curse the curse Quirrell tried to kill Harry with. Quirrell uses the word never suggesting that as a baby Snape did not want him to die.Great catch Tane! This could be taken to imply that VM knows Snape was a traitor back in '81 - However, it also might just be about Harry's 1st year of school. Unfortunately, not conclusive, but might add up sometime. However, as I said before VM shares a head with Quirrel, but not necessarily a mind. I doubt VM would allow Quirrel to know everything that he [VM] knows, so this could be just from Quirrel's viewpoint.

...Not only that but Snape might have attacked James and killed him on the night Voldemort tried kill baby Harry.Very doubtful, James' echo came out of VMs wand = VM's wand was used to kill James and in PS/SS when VM is speaking directly to Harry from the back of Quirrel's head, VM specifically states that he killed both of Harry's parents.

Very doubtful, James' echo came out of VMs wand = VM's wand was used to kill James and in PS/SS when VM is speaking directly to Harry from the back of Quirrel's head, VM specifically states that he killed both of Harry's parents.Good point I keep forgetting about that little incident in GoF.

Edit: So what this could mean is that Voldemort knows that Snape loathes James because Snape did not care about James being killed by Voldemort. That would suggest that Voldemort knew Snape cared about Lily though because he never says that Snape loathed both of Harry's parents, just that he hated James.

There is something else that would fit the Occlumency section of my last post, the fact that Dumbledore could not understand why Snape would not teach Harry anymore. I remembered what someone stated earlier on in this thread; that Dumbledore might not know about the attack on James in Snape's Worst Memory. This might have made it really difficult for Snape to give a good enough reasons as to why he no longer wanted to teach Harry Occlumency anymore.

I just go back to CoS and Harry:

Dumbledore grins: 'So Harry is there anything else you would like to tell me?'
Harry: 'No’, lying through his little back teeth about the voices that he hears in his head.

This same conversation could have so easily happened between Dumbledore and Snape during his explanation as to why he will not teach Harry Occlumency anymore.

I woould rather think that the first time Dumbledore hears of SWM is when Snape stops the Occlumency lessons: it seems logical that Snape tells him what Harry saw when he looked into the Penseive and that Dumbledore then understands why Snape stopped the lessons. It fits what Dumbledore says when Harry tells him that the lessons stopped:

"I am aware of it," said Dumbledore heavily. "I have already said that it was a mistake for me not to teach you myslf, though I was sure, at the time, that nothing could have been more dangerous than to open your mind even further to Voldemort while in my presence--"
"Snape made it worse, my scar always hurt worse after lessons with him--" Harry remembered Ron's thoughts on the subject and plunged on. "How do you know he wasn't trying to soften me up for Voldemort, make it easier for him to get inside my--"
"I trust Severus Snape," said Dumbledore simply. "But I forgot--another old man's mistake--that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I though Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father--I was wrong" (p. 833, US hardcover).

In looking at this again, I realize that Dumbledore is saying that it isn't possible for Snape to 'get over' his past. Dumbledore's comment about choices is often thrown in Snape's direction--that Snape is really weak because he doesn't 'choose' to be a happy person and forget his past. However, Dumbledore says explicitly here that there are wounds that don't heal--he removes the issue of choice, in saying this: the wound is far too deep for choice to be applied. Hm.

....Dumbledore is saying that it isn't possible for Snape to 'get over' his past. Dumbledore's comment about choices is often thrown in Snape's direction--that Snape is really weak because he doesn't 'choose' to be a happy person and forget his past. However, Dumbledore says explicitly here that there are wounds that don't heal--he removes the issue of choice, in saying this: the wound is far too deep for choice to be applied.An excellent observation! I have often found that my problems with depression, someone will occasionally throw out that I should just get over it - thinking that if thet could get over the hurts in their pasts, I should be able to do so - I can't tell you all how much I wish that was true and I could just put things behind me and start anew!
...."I have already said that it was a mistake for me not to teach you myslf, though I was sure, at the time, that nothing could have been more dangerous than to open your mind even further to Voldemort while in my presence--"Another point that DD brings up here is that many (including Harry & Ron) accuse Snape of making it easier for VM to get to Harry's mind. Here DD is saying that the opening up of the mind is actually part of the process of learning occlumency.

Off-Topic: I'm just hearing the news about the bombings in London - so horrible! :upset:

21 dead at King's Cross Station, omg.

I couldn't find an appropriate thread to post this, so I'll just say that all my sympathy goes out to Londoners and all the British People. :sad:

sip - found a thread here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=2562668#post2562668) on it.

I couldn't find an appropriate thread to post this, so I'll just say that all my sympathy goes out to Londoners and all the British People.
SIP, there are two threads in the DoIMC dealing with this tragedy, although only one would truly be appropriate to express you sympathy in. The other one is fast becoming a commentary on what is wrong with the world.

SIP, there are two threads in the DoIMC dealing with this tragedy, although only one would truly be appropriate to express you sympathy in. The other one is fast becoming a commentary on what is wrong with the world.
Thank you! I found the threads and posted there. I was truly too upset to find them! :upset:

Thank you! I found the threads and posted there. I was truly too upset to find them!
Your quite welcome. When I came on-line today I went looking for them. Everyone that I know from England is on this site, so I wanted to express my condolences. Instead I ended up arguing about world issues. It made me feel guilty so I deleted my off-topic comments.

I have often found that my problems with depression, someone will occasionally throw out that I should just get over it - thinking that if thet could get over the hurts in their pasts, I should be able to do so - I can't tell you all how much I wish that was true and I could just put things behind me and start anew!
Most often those who preach "get over it" are those who have never had to deal with it. Ignoring them is the easiest way to deal with it. I understand how you feel (and how Snape feels), and I admit that I have been lucky because my family has been my strongest support. I can't imagine what it would have been like if I had no one.

I often feel that Snape's biggest problem with "getting over it" has been the lack of a support system. Dumbledore has been there, yes, but I agree with Subtle that he never knew how bad it was until OotP.

I often feel that Snape's biggest problem with "getting over it" has been the lack of a support system. Dumbledore has been there, yes, but I agree with Subtle that he never knew how bad it was until OotP.I agree, but would like to add that DDs not knowing could have also affected how he dealt with the werewolf prank the next year.

I agree, but would like to add that DDs not knowing could have also affected how he dealt with the werewolf prank the next year.
Good point! It is surprising, with what Snape went through, that he was able to approach Dumbledore at all. It also speaks to Snape's character that he is so loyal to someone who was oblivious to what he went through during his years at Hogwarts.

I agree--not knowing about SWM also is a logical explanation for what happened after the Willow Incident. Certainly one can't imagine James' being Head Boy with SWM on his resume.

It also seems likely that Snape wouldn't hold too much against Dumbledore if he hadn't told Dumbledore about SWM to begin with. He's not that illogical, I think, and that he kept his silence would factor into his thinking.

I'll say again that Snape's not 'getting over it' is also affected by his apparent lack of familiarity with happiness and what everyone else would consider normality. By his standards, he's past it in many ways. The ways that are left--being bitter and unhappy....well, unfortunately, I think he thinks that's pretty normal............

It also seems likely that Snape wouldn't hold too much against Dumbledore if he hadn't told Dumbledore about SWM to begin with. He's not that illogical, I think, and that he kept his silence would factor into his thinking.
I agree that Snape is logical, but emotion is rarely logical. Example: Snape's initial assumption of Harry's personality. I think that it took some time before Dumbledore "redeemed" himself to Snape. I do believe that Snape never thought that Dumbledore needed forgiveness (umm...maybe I don't think that Snape actually blamed Dumbledore is a better way to put it), but I think it took a little while for Snape to come to terms with it...ugh, I'm having a hard time trying to express myself today. Hopefully, that makes sense.

I think it's that Snape hates as well as feared James and when James died he sort of opened his eyes and realized at what length he had gone to. To make himself feel strong and to put himself in a position to fight James. Once he realized what all he had done he became a spy for Dumbledore but the war was coming to a halt. I think Snape didn't become a spy for Dumbledore until after the dark lord was gone. The memory that Harry saw was one of the memories that made Snape fear and loathe James so much. It showed that Snape was practically defenseless against James. Snape feared James and I believe because Harry looks like James so much that the only time Snape doesn't feel a little bit of the fear he had to deal with when he was younger is when Snape looks into Harry's eyes. Something that didn't remind him of James but of someone that had tried to stand up for him. Harry's mother.



(Sorry, I just couldn't help but put in what I thought. Sorry!)

(Sorry, I just couldn't help but put in what I thought. Sorry!)

Why should you be sorry? That's what these boards are for. :welcome: by the way.

I think it's that Snape hates as well as feared James

Now, I'll agree with you that Snape loathed James, but he wasn't afraid of him. Snape probably could take James if it was a fair fight.

I think Snape didn't become a spy for Dumbledore until after the dark lord was gone.

I also think that Snape probably turned and became a spy for DD before Voldy was defeated. But that's just currently idle speculation on my part.


Snape feared James and I believe because Harry looks like James so much that the only time Snape doesn't feel a little bit of the fear he had to deal with when he was younger is when Snape looks into Harry's eyes. Something that didn't remind him of James but of someone that had tried to stand up for him. Harry's mother.

Again, I'll disagree with the fear part, but you've got a point about the eyes. As the series progresses, Snape seems to be seeing Harry differently. It's as if Snape is starting to realize that Harry is not James. Harry's got a lot of James' personality traits, but he's Lily's kid, too. And JK said Lily's eyes were important.
But let's face it folks, I honestly don't think Snape had a thing for Lily. He may have respected her, maybe even liked her a little (not likely, knowing Snape), but he didn't like her, like her.

Now that I've shot your theory full of holes....some welcoming commitee I am. :rolleyes:

What ever happened to Snape in his past must have been more hurtful than a few school boy disputes. I just wonder whether Molly's overly protective nature as seen in OotP has something to with the same event that got to Snape. I read an interesting line in OotP about Molly curling up her lip when arguing with Sirius about how much he should know in regards to Voldemorts return. You know Molly sounded a lot like Snape in this line'He's not your son,' said Sirius quietly.
'He's as good as,' said Mrs. Weasley fiercely. 'Who else has he got?'
'He's got me!'
'Yes,' said Mrs Weasley, her lip curling, 'the thing is, it's been rather difficult for you to look after him while your've been locked up in Azkaban, hasn't it?'The facial expression the attack on Sirius, why you would Snape was in the room if JKR had not stated Molly was saying those words.

The thing is that I have never seen Molly curl her lip up and act in a similar if not exactly the same as Snape. At first I thought it was Snape talking to Sirius Black because that was out of character for Molly. I mean we know Molly is possessive but she never gets jealous like that, normally just angry. I would almost be tempted to say that Molly was not Molly but a polyjuiced Snape in that scene.

Dumbledore is the one who tells the council at Karkaroff's hearing (GoF, "The Pensieve") that Snape became a spy before Voldemort's downfall.

It seems more likely that Snape and Molly have traits in common than that Snape left the Order meeting and returned shortly after as Molly via Polyjuice--who somehow also left the meeting although she's one of the people who escorts Snape out and relocks the door...?

I'm working my way through the four pages that I've missed since Tuesday. I think I'll just post this now, and add more as I go ...

EDIT 2: Wheeee!! Just found an owl telling me that I scored 3rd in the anti-spoiler contest, text category! Thanks all!!
*does a somersault of sheer happiness*
Congratulations, Serpentine!!! :clap: And TENSHI and Morweniris too! :clap: :clap:I also like the snake-y information...Not only is Snape prone to give fair warning, but there are also the repetitious descriptions of his "soft" and "hissing" voice, particularly when he is delivering those warnings. We've discussed here in the past what his Patronus could be (espcially as revealing it is saying too much, according to JKR); thestral and hippogriff have also been proposed, but snake is a distinct, definite possibility that fits a great deal of his character.

Yes, a boomslang* or some other snake is a good suggestion for Snape's Patronus, Serpentine (if he can find a happy memory to cast one, that is ... ;) ) I have also imagined a black panther for him.

*boomslang: Oh, I love seeing the resemblance between different langauges: Baum in German (=tree), Boom in Afrikaans. And "slange" in Norwegian means snake, too. :agree:

Serpentine, thanks for the information about boomslangs. :tu:

*continuing from where I left off*

And that's clearly it: Snape can't wait to get out of the house, even if it means missing a great meal, because he can't breathe! : ) !!!!!!!!!! (Okay--random bit of utter, inexcusable trivia: Alan Rickman doesn't smoke in films--this was discovered by watching Die Hard and most of Quigley Down Under and shouting out the discovery at the same time as the other AR fanatic watching the DVD's...In both, once AR has lit the tobacco product, he never takes another drag. He fiddles with it, but he never again puts it in his mouth, in long, continuous shots...Okay--yes, I really love trivia!)

:tu: Rickman! :lol:
Have you noticed how JKR describes Snape's teeth as being yellow, though? Toryvic once suggested that Snape actually smokes ... :evil:

I don't know, I like him now, after seeing what he went through as a child and teen, no one deserves that, but there's no reason to take it out on Harry... I'm still waiting to find out some important stuff about him later, like his patronus!

:agree: Yeah, me too.

:welcome: Headmistess7

Yes, a boomslang* or some other snake is a good suggestion for Snape's Patronus, Serpentine (if he can find a happy memory to cast one, that is ... ;) ) I have also imagined a black panther for him.

*boomslang: Oh, I love seeing the resemblance between different langauges: Baum in German (=tree), Boom in Afrikaans. And "slange" in Norwegian means snake, too. :agree:I've been away from this thread for quite a while, so I'll just jump on in! I love the idea of a snake as Snape's Patronus, particularly the boomslang/tree snake idea. Since Snape is indeed a spy for DD against the DEs, then "tree snake" is the perfect symbol for him. He's dangerous and invisible ... until he drops out of the branches and bites you (with his yellow teeth, eek!). :p

Along on the bully topic, don't you think that Voldy counts as the biggest, baddest bully of all time?
Voldemort moves into a whole other category from bully--he's a psychopath, pure and simple: he's classic case. He wields power, but it's not in the same sense that the Marauders bullied. Voldemort plays on a whole other level.

Interestingly enough, JKR actually uses the word "bully" to describe Voldemort's actions. She lets Sirius explain that there are two categories of Voldemort's followers: His faithful Death Eaters, and people he's bullied into following him:

Sirius says: "In the old days he had huge numbers at his command: witches and wizards he'd bullied or bewitched into following him, his faithful Death Eaters, a great variety of Dark creatures." (OoTP, p. 88, UK hardcover)

I still need to do 10 pages of backreading.. you guys do type fast! Let me just jump in here, then I promise I'll do my homework.. :angel:
I've been away from this thread for quite a while, so I'll just jump on in! I love the idea of a snake as Snape's Patronus, particularly the boomslang/tree snake idea. Since Snape is indeed a spy for DD against the DEs, then "tree snake" is the perfect symbol for him. He's dangerous and invisible ... until he drops out of the branches and bites you (with his yellow teeth, eek!).A snake patronus is a charming idea.. but I don't see why revealing it would mean giving too much away. I'm more inclined toward something less expected.. does it have to be an animal? probably not. I would picture something like the Hogwarts Express (it led him away from an oppressive homelife..) or something else we wouldn't think it fit him.. that'd be giving too much away!

Interestingly enough, JKR actually uses the word "bully" to describe Voldemort's actions. She lets Sirius explain that there are two categories of Voldemort's followers: His faithful Death Eaters, and people he's bullied into following him:

Sirius says: "In the old days he had huge numbers at his command: witches and wizards he'd bullied or bewitched into following him, his faithful Death Eaters, a great variety of Dark creatures." (OoTP, p. 88, UK hardcover):tu: Good catch!

Off-Topic: I'm just hearing the news about the bombings in London - so horrible!

21 dead at King's Cross Station, omg.

I couldn't find an appropriate thread to post this, so I'll just say that all my sympathy goes out to Londoners and all the British People.

Yes, it's horrible, isn't it. :upset: Scary too, especially since Chiev and I are going there very soon - to King's Cross and everything ... :scared:


Oh, and HI, Bratanimus! Sorry for speaking about something completely different while you were talking to me ... :blush: I was reading through all the pages taht I had missed while being away for a few days, and responding as I went along, so I didn't see you there. Sorry. Yeah, I really like Serpentine's idea that Snape's patronus is a snake, too. :agree:

OK. this has probably been mentioned by someone somewhere before, but in case it hasn't ...

The whole tree snake thing got me thinking about the Biblical story about the snake tempting Adam and Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge (Genesis 3:1-7). God had said that eating from the tree would poison them (figuratively, bringing about the loss of innocence and making them aware of good and evil, making them "as gods" with all the sorrows and responsibilities that accompany such knowledge).

I don't want to steer this thread into a religious discussion ;), but simply want to point out the fable of the snake as the "evil" one who offers the knowledge of good and evil to mankind.

Snape himself works with potentially dangerous potions and knowledge, even tantalizing his class that they might be able to "stopper death." And Snape's Pensieve opens Harry's eyes to the knowledge that his father might be less than perfect; Harry is tempted by the beauty of the "fruit" but quickly discovers that he has gotten more than he bargained for. So Snape is a key element in Harry's loss of innocence and his gaining of knowledge.

In addition, he is discovering that, as Sirius (?) says, people are not either all good (as he thought his father was) or Death Eaters (as he suspected Snape to be). Rather, there are shades of gray (DD's speech about choices). So this experience opens the door for Harry to appreciate the complications of human psychology and behavior; although painful, it is a huge step in his growing up. Snape is a catalyst for change and growth, just as the snake in the old Bible tale is the catalyst for mankind's trade of innocence for knowledge.

Forgive me if the points I'm making are VERY old points. I'm just getting into the detailed discussions on these threads. Thanks for letting me post my 2 knuts' worth! :p

Oh, and HI, Bratanimus! Sorry for speaking about something completely different while you were talking to me ... :blush: I was reading through all the pages taht I had missed while being away for a few days, and responding as I went along, so I didn't see you there. Sorry. Yeah, I really like Serpentine's idea that Snape's patronus is a snake, too. :agree:No worries! I've got some catching up to do, too! :p

A snake patronus is a charming idea.. but I don't see why revealing it would mean giving too much away. I'm more inclined toward something less expected.. does it have to be an animal? probably not. I would picture something like the Hogwarts Express (it led him away from an oppressive homelife..) or something else we wouldn't think it fit him.. that'd be giving too much away!Very good thoughts, severa78! I had forgotten JKR's statement that revealing Snape's Patronus would give too much away. I just get so excited when I think something makes sense, I just want to latch onto it and run with it! :blush: That's why I love these forums. They keep me on my toes.

I'm not sure the Hogwarts Express would be his Patronus (although I love the idea!). The Hogwarts Express would be referential to Snape's personal history but not necessarily to the HP/LV plot.

Very good thoughts, severa78! I had forgotten JKR's statement that revealing Snape's Patronus would give too much away. I just get so excited when I think something makes sense, I just want to latch onto it and run with it! That's why I love these forums. They keep me on my toes.

I'm not sure the Hogwarts Express would be his Patronus (although I love the idea!). The Hogwarts Express would be referential to Snape's personal history but not necessarily to the HP/LV plot.
I wasn't really serious about the Hogwarts Express, I just tried to expand the possibilities.
I love these forums too, a lot of great ideas being tossed around!

Welcome back, Norbertha! I hope your holiday was fun!

And welcome back, Bratanimus!

The thing with the the possible snake patronus revealing too much is that, so far, snakes have been heavily associated with evil in the books--Voldemort's companion, Voldemort 's appearance (his name just came out as Voldoert, a whole new typo for him, helped by the fact I'm trying to type with a cat on my lap...I rather like it--it puts me in mind of inert gases...I mean, the typo, not the cat...), the basilisk, the symbol of Slytherin. Only the snake in the zoo, freed by Harry, has been a positive image. So I can see that revealing the patronus to be a snake could certainly rouse things!!

Much is made in CoS of Snape's reaction to Harry's Parseltongue abilities--both in the book and the film. It's definitely important, as the camera lingers on Alan Rickman's face (oh, thank you!--ahem: sorry; just had an off-topic moment there) to drive the point home.

Is there a connection between Snape and Salazar Slytherin?

Off on another topic--Sirius also makes the comment about Pettigrew's looking to associate himself with the biggest bully on the playground, doesn't he? Anyway, I was speaking in a more general sense: bullies can be pschopathic and vice versa, but I still say classifying Voldemort as a bully is rather a bit of understatement.......

I still need to do 10 pages A snake patronus is a charming idea.. but I don't see why revealing it would mean giving too much away. I'm more inclined toward something less expected.. does it have to be an animal? probably not. I would picture something like the Hogwarts Express (it led him away from an oppressive homelife..) or something else we wouldn't think it fit him.. that'd be giving too much away!

:tu: Good catch!

I just visualised his patronus coming out of his wand. :D No wonder he doesn't show up with it. :p

Back to more serious points, then. I wonder if his patronus was a sphinx... I think it would fit well. Sphinxes are uncommonly clever creatures, with a knack for riddles (Snape's task in PS was a potion riddle). Sphinxes are also can get very dangerous, and usually they are used to protect valuable things.
If you remember back in GOF the sphinx was talking about a spy... coincidence?

Back to more serious points, then. I wonder if his patronus was a sphinx... I think it would fit well. Sphinxes are uncommonly clever creatures, with a knack for riddles (Snape's task in PS was a potion riddle). Sphinxes are also can get very dangerous, and usually they are used to protect valuable things.
If you remember back in GOF the sphinx was talking about a spy... coincidence?
That's a nice, and more sensible, idea. It would make sense somewhat.

Subtle, I see what you mean about a snake patronus being significant because of all the snake references around the books, but let me disagree.

First of all, that would imply that Snape is really evil, and I don't want to think that.

Second, the fact that snakes have been used so much troughout the series makes me think a snake Snape patronus would be too obvious.. another repetition of the same imagery. I trust JK to come up with something original.. of course, I'll eat my hat if Snape's patronus turns out to be a snake.. IF we ever find out!

Have you noticed how JKR describes Snape's teeth as being yellow, though? Toryvic once suggested that Snape actually smokes ...

- or tries out too many dodgy experimental potions on himself. :scared:

Much is made in CoS of Snape's reaction to Harry's Parseltongue abilities--both in the book and the film. It's definitely important, as the camera lingers on Alan Rickman's face (oh, thank you!--ahem: sorry; just had an off-topic moment there) to drive the point home.

Now I will *have* to order a copy of that film.

First of all, that would imply that Snape is really evil, and I don't want to think that.

I'm not sure - after all, the snake Harry set free at the beginning definitely wasnt. Huge clue to the future plot, yes - but evil - no, I dont think so. I actually had a crazy thought about that zoo scene as being (possibly?) symbolic of Harry freeing Snape from his own form of psycological captivity re' his own personal demons etc. - but I think that one's just the feral sevage in me speaking ;p . Would be a nice idea for a fanfic I suppose ...

Back to more serious points, then. I wonder if his patronus was a sphinx... I think it would fit well. Sphinxes are uncommonly clever creatures, with a knack for riddles (Snape's task in PS was a potion riddle). Sphinxes are also can get very dangerous, and usually they are used to protect valuable things.
If you remember back in GOF the sphinx was talking about a spy... coincidence?

You might find this (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-fecher01.shtml) interesting, and there is also a discussion that raises the question of whether one's patronus would = one's animagus form here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=39629&page=1&pp=20). And you've also given me the urge to draw myself a Sphinx!Snape now (apart from a myriad of other things I'm quite fond of sphinxes)

thestralgrin--You made exactly the point I was thinking of, which was that the lone good snake in CoS seems one of the oddities of the books--it sort of gives rise to the question: where's the rest of it???? One good image in five books--in fact, starting the books. Everything else is the opposite. So having a snake be Snape's Patronus could be the mirror balance to the rest of the imagery.

The thing with the the possible snake patronus revealing too much is that, so far, snakes have been heavily associated with evil in the books--Voldemort's companion, Voldemort 's appearance,
...
the basilisk, the symbol of Slytherin. Only the snake in the zoo, freed by Harry, has been a positive image. So I can see that revealing the patronus to be a snake could certainly rouse things!!

Much is made in CoS of Snape's reaction to Harry's Parseltongue abilities--both in the book and the film. It's definitely important ...

Is there a connection between Snape and Salazar Slytherin?Delving further into other types of symbolism having to do with snakes, I think we should not limit ourselves to the snake=evil notion. Here are some tidbits I found succinctly stated at http://www.dreamsnightmares.com/snakes.html:

(1) In North American native tribes, the shedding of the snake's skin is associated with life and a new beginning.

(2) Gillian Holloway, Ph.D. wrote, "People who are dying or who have lost a loved one often dream of snakes, at or near the time of death. For whatever reason, these dreams seem involved with the psychic awareness of the transition from this life to the next...."

(3) Carl Jung talks about a similar connection between earth and heaven in his discussion on the snake as a symbol for medicine. In Man and His Symbols, he writes, "perhaps the commonest dream symbol of transcendence is the snake, as represented by the therapeutic symbol of the Roman god of medicine Aeseulapius, which has survived to modern times as a sign of the medical profession. This was originally a nonpoisonous tree snake; as we see it, coiled around the staff of the healing god, it seems to embody a kind of mediation between earth and heaven."

(4) Snakes are also seen as symbols representing evil.

(5) In other cases the snakes is seen as a phallic symbol. (OK, let's not go there! This is a children's book. :p But it does make sense in that the phallus is often symbolic of power, and the House of Slytherin seeks power above all.)

(6) Holloway writes " ... a snake-ordeal is an important signal that you are going through a kind of initiation; a psychological and spiritual trial that has the potential to change your life for the better if you deal with it bravely and with a clear heart. You may have to give up something you thought you couldn't, or take a stand for your principles or faith."

So what I'm seeing in several of the above references is a repeated theme of initiation, transition, and awakening. Any thoughts or comments?

The snake as a "mediation between earth and heaven" as seen on the staff of the healing god is particularly interesting to me. Snape does do a bit of doctoring (with Lupin's potion). I'm wondering if Snape will have some connection with those who have passed through the veil??? I have a pet theory that the Priori Incantatum scene was foreshadowing that the dead will have some role to play in LV's defeat.

Snape himself works with potentially dangerous potions and knowledge, even tantalizing his class that they might be able to "stopper death." And Snape's Pensieve opens Harry's eyes to the knowledge that his father might be less than perfect; Harry is tempted by the beauty of the "fruit" but quickly discovers that he has gotten more than he bargained for. So Snape is a key element in Harry's loss of innocence and his gaining of knowledge.
Wow - great point Brantimous! I love the idea of Harry's curiousity taking him from innocence to knowledge, just like the story of Eden. There's no going back once innocence is lost, and that's where he is right now in the story. Love it.
So this experience opens the door for Harry to appreciate the complications of human psychology and behavior; although painful, it is a huge step in his growing up. Snape is a catalyst for change and growth, just as the snake in the old Bible tale is the catalyst for mankind's trade of innocence for knowledge.
The snake in the garden! And Dumbledore had definitely warned Harry about being too curious in GoF, the first time Harry peeked at someone else's memories in the Pensieve. So Dumbledore would the god-like figure giving the warning. Very interesting!

(Forgive the following "free-association." I can't help myself.)

Snape "casts" Harry "out of the garden," so to speak, by throwing him out of his office, too. Haha - then Ginny gives him a a chocolate Easter egg, and they are both "cast out" of the Library by Madame Pince, LOL, in a very Snapish parallel! OK - the woman "tempts" him to eat chocolate in the library, and out they go. :lol: Another Garden of Eden parallel.

Then Snape stops "speaking" to him. I wonder if that is significant. Snape and Harry spoke together more in OotP than in any other book. Slytherin-Parseltongue communication. Then the "curiousity" sin happened, Harry is an "outcast" - which is the word Hermione uses about Sirius when she says "Sirius wants you to be an outcast like him." :) I'm liking this train of thought. OK - so then - communication is over between Snape and Harry, and Harry is "punished" by having his potions bottle broken, strangely with the "help" of Hermione, who is "hissing" an "uninterrupted flow of dire warnings" on the page before.

Harry is told in "Career Advice" that in order to become an "Auror" (like the "gold" of alchemy) Harry has to study potions anyway. That's all I've got for now, but it would be interesting to see where this parallel goes through the Death of Sirius, and Snape suddenly communicating again at the end of OotP.

Second, the fact that snakes have been used so much troughout the series makes me think a snake Snape patronus would be too obvious.. another repetition of the same imagery. I trust JK to come up with something original.. of course, I'll eat my hat if Snape's patronus turns out to be a snake.. IF we ever find out!
I'm skeptical of a snake patronus, too, though when I was reading posts about the snake and the wand, that sounds remarkable like a "caduceus" of the god Mercury, the symbol of modern medicine. Of course, that has two snakes twined around it, too.'

My problem with that is that Snape is already "Head of Slytherin," so why would he need still another symbol to tell us - "there's a Slytherin guy." I'm not saying it couldn't be a snake, but that I'm just a little skeptical.

I actually think Snape's patronus might be a bird, like Dumbledore's phoenix. Not ready to say what bird, though, lol.

In the first three books, Snape wasnt a character I particularly likes, but as the GOF progressed I kinda began to like him, and during OofTP I liked him again, especially during the occumlecy lessons. Deep down I dont think he has any pure hatred for Harry, I think he knows what Harry is capable of, and dont forget he knew Harrys dad and can see James in Harry so this might make him feel a bit insecure. I am looking forward to seeing what he can do in HBP.

Why should you be sorry? That's what these boards are for. :welcome: by the way.

But let's face it folks, I honestly don't think Snape had a thing for Lily. He may have respected her, maybe even liked her a little (not likely, knowing Snape), but he didn't like her, like her.

Now that I've shot your theory full of holes....some welcoming commitee I am. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the welcome.
I have to agree. I don't think Snape liked Lily to the point of love.
I dont care that you shot my theory full of holes. My theory was a theory not fact. Im not mad. I actually liked reading what you had to say about it.



The snake would be the patronus for Snape. He is the only good snake in the bunch and that is just what he is. He would have a patronus that is a snake. He is the only dark person I think that would ever use a patronus. Voldemort controls the death eaters now. So the DE doesn't have to worry about that. Snape would have a snake as his patronus. I don't think any of the good people would.
If anyone wants to shot my theory full of holes go ahead. I wont get mad. I'll just try and see things from your point of view. Which sounds way older then I am. Is that normal?

thestralgrin--You made exactly the point I was thinking of, which was that the lone good snake in CoS seems one of the oddities of the books--it sort of gives rise to the question: where's the rest of it???? One good image in five books--in fact, starting the books. Everything else is the opposite. So having a snake be Snape's Patronus could be the mirror balance to the rest of the imagery.
I just saw your post, and I like the idea of the "balance" between good and bad snakes. Snakes can't be seen as "wholly bad," since they are natural creatures anyway, and not "bad" in themselves.

I was reading alchemy again, and Nicholas Flamel designed his own tombstone to have snakes carved all over it! And then there is the medicinal connection to the caduceus, which I think is important.

My only thought is that a patronus is about protection. So, who is Snape's protector? Dumbledore and Hogwarts itself. Dumbledore already has the Phoenix as a patronus, so that can't be Snape's. So Snape needs something that represents Dumbledore, but not the Phoenix. Maybe a dragon? I know - a Griffin! That would be awesome!

On the other hand, and I'm free associating again, Harry's patronus is his father - the stag. Might Snape's patronus be . . . his mother - a creature associated with her, whoever she is? We can be pretty sure there are no happy memories about his father, considering his memory of a man yelling at a woman. What if Snape was protected by his own mother, the same way Lily protected Harry? This is something I've thought about alot. I think it might be the reason we are shown that little domestic memory of Snape crying as a child. His mother is between young Snape and an angry man, just as Lily was between Harry and Voldemort. Interesting . . .

At least we can be somewhat sure that Snape had a mother, perhaps, from that scene. And that would make him different in many ways from Voldemort, with no mother, or Sirius Black, whose insane mother "didn't have a heart." We never saw Sirius use a Patronus, did we? Or Voldemort, either. But I think we will see Snape use a patronus.

Wow - great point Bratanimus! I love the idea of Harry's curiousity taking him from innocence to knowledge, just like the story of Eden. There's no going back once innocence is lost, and that's where he is right now in the story. Love it.

The snake in the garden! And Dumbledore had definitely warned Harry about being too curious in GoF, the first time Harry peeked at someone else's memories in the Pensieve. So Dumbledore would the god-like figure giving the warning. Very interesting!

(Forgive the following "free-association." I can't help myself.)

Snape "casts" Harry "out of the garden," so to speak, by throwing him out of his office, too. Haha - then Ginny gives him a a chocolate Easter egg, and they are both "cast out" of the Library by Madame Pince, LOL, in a very Snapish parallel! OK - the woman "tempts" him to eat chocolate in the library, and out they go. :lol: Another Garden of Eden parallel.

Then Snape stops "speaking" to him. I wonder if that is significant. Snape and Harry spoke together more in OotP than in any other book. Slytherin-Parseltongue communication. Then the "curiousity" sin happened, Harry is an "outcast" - which is the word Hermione uses about Sirius when she says "Sirius wants you to be an outcast like him." :) I'm liking this train of thought. OK - so then - communication is over between Snape and Harry, and Harry is "punished" by having his potions bottle broken, strangely with the "help" of Hermione, who is "hissing" an "uninterrupted flow of dire warnings" on the page before.

Harry is told in "Career Advice" that in order to become an "Auror" (like the "gold" of alchemy) Harry has to study potions anyway. That's all I've got for now, but it would be interesting to see where this parallel goes through the Death of Sirius, and Snape suddenly communicating again at the end of OotP.Yes yes yes! Go with the free association, silver ink pot! You draw some really wonderful parallels! Woo hoo! :clap:

Snape didn;t have a good cildhood. I'm guessing this from what we read in the OotP when Harry saw Snape's memories during one of his Occlumency lessons. With his parents yelling at eachother? Well, I'm not sure if that happened often, but obviously he was affected by it since he was upset in the memory. So I really don't think Snape is as bad as he looks, but he certainly could have handled it better maybe? :huh:

~Alex :evil:

thestralgrin--You made exactly the point I was thinking of, which was that the lone good snake in CoS seems one of the oddities of the books--it sort of gives rise to the question: where's the rest of it???? One good image in five books--in fact, starting the books. Everything else is the opposite. So having a snake be Snape's Patronus could be the mirror balance to the rest of the imagery.

I was thinking about this too--a good, harmless snake right at the beginning of PS/SS seems to be very important. Harry doesn't know yet that he's a wizard, but uses magic. He's not prejudiced against snakes at that moment and has no associations with Slytherin and Voldemort, so he doesn't fear the animal. Harry even feels sorry for the Boa and helps it to gain freedom although probably not for long. I've thought of this as a possible course of relation between Harry and Snape, a relation based on knowledge of each other's past. Harry would know from the start, that it was his father who bullied Severus--Boa was closed in the Zoo because other humans did it and Harry, as a human being, is connected to the ones who entrapped the animal.

The other way that I thought of a possible connection between Snape and Boa Constrictor is that it relates to something that might/will happen: Harry will release Severus from the Professor's cage, the mask of DE and spy.

I'm sorry if this is rambling, but maybe someone has similar thoughts on the matter?

(5) In other cases the snakes is seen as a phallic symbol. OK, let's not go there! This is a children's book. :p But it does make sense in that the phallus is often symbolic of power, and the House of Slytherin seeks power above all.
Huh... And this may explain why there is a group of females (me included) definitely salivating before Snape? :angel:

*runs and hides*

Seriously, also think of the bronze snake "standard" used by Moses to heal the Hebrews who had been bitten by snakes in the desert. A fore-runner of the caduceus, as well as an imagery to "look up to the "standard", the Cross, for us Christians.
Extrapolation to Snape? None I think of right now. Except that Harry should "look up to Snape" and listen a bit better to him, instead of always suspecting him of evilness :p

Huh... And this may explain why there is a group of females (me included) definitely salivating before Snape? :angel:

*runs and hides*Mwaa ha ha ha haaa! :evil: *ahem* :angel:

Counting down in Alisel's time zone: 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, ...

Happy birthday Alisel!
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9th July 2005

Happy Birthday Alisel!

Congratulations, we have now passed into the realm of superthread, again!

Happy Birthday, Alisel!!!

Now, who's going to set up the new thread, since we've gone past 1500?

Sorry, but I’m responding to posts from several days ago, since I’m only catching up with this thread today.There could be another side to Snape's Worst Memory though that could lead to Dumbledore finally trusting Snape. James and the rest of the Marauders might have seen Snape slipping slowly away, moving from Dumbledore's loyalty to the death eaters’ side. I find it interesting that one minute Snape and James are fighting and yet in another memory James is saving Snape's life. I just wonder whether James felt Snape was a victim being used by the death eaters and may have gone out of his way to save Snape's life again or was involved in convincing Snape that he was on the wrong side. Perhaps Snape and James came to some reconciliation just before James died. This could explain why Snape's worst memory is his worst memory of hurting James in the fight.I just don’t see this as likely at all. According to Dumbledore, Snape and James hated one another right away. According to Sirius, Snape came to school knowing more dark magic than the eldest students. This, of course, doesn’t mean that Snape actually knew this much dark magic, but it does imply that James and Sirius thought he did. Neither of those facts support James being concerned with Snape slowly drifting toward the Death Eaters. I also doubt that James and Snape ever reconciled before James’s death; otherwise, why would Snape have such animosity toward Harry? Considering what happened to Snape in his worst memory, which is much worse than what happened to James in it, I don’t see why he would regret having retaliated.
Another thought...Ron says that Snape never eats there. One does wonder if, in fact, he's ever been invited. Somehow, I really doubt that...It may not be Snape's choice that he doesn't eat with any Order members; he may never be included...as I can't imagine Sirius permitting that one!That’s a really interesting idea. I’d bet you’re right. Given how Sirius behaves when Snape comes to inform Harry of Occlumency lessons, it’s not credible to think that Sirius would ever invite Snape to stay for dinner. Surely, Molly or another Order member would have invited Snape to stay at some point, though?
Maybe the best answer is just that he'll tolerate Sirius, but he won't "break bread" with him.This is probably also true—Snape probably doesn’t want to have dinner with Sirius any more than Sirius wants to have dinner with Snape.
I always just figured that there would be no reason for Snape to want to stick around and socialize, since Sirius was there. I can't imagine, under any circumstances, Sirius extending an invitation...accepting one would seem *** fast train to indigestion. Sirius is upfront about his hostility, and he claims Snape has been taking verbal potshots at him, so...not exactly the foundation for a peaceful meal.I’m thinking about this in the context of Snape’s character, as well. Snape is not an outgoing person, I don’t think. He has a very serious, no-nonsense demeanor. As such, I don’t think he’d be interested in the kind of small talk and socializing that would be taking place at dinner. He isn’t described as socializing with the other Order members before or after the meetings. He just comes in, takes care of business, and leaves. I doubt that’s only because of Sirius’s presence.
Doesn't much sound as if Sirius thinks of Mundungus as a friend--only as someone who can provide a service to the Order (of course, that service seems to be a bit limited, as he can't quite handle all duties).It’s also curious that he would be so friendly with Mundungus right after Mundungus put Harry at risk. :huh:
When the Advance Guard finds out that Snape has arrived for the meeting, they react with "noises of interest and excitement" (p.61); after, "They were whispering excitedly together. In the very center of the group Harry saw the dark, greasy-haired head and prominent nose of his least favorite teacher at Hogwarts, Professor Snape" (p. 76). It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Sirius was a bit jealous for this as well as for being stuck in the house. Sirius would much prefer himself, rather than Snape, as the center or attention, I’m sure.
I think now I know why because the sorting hat new Snape was a good teacher and would have helped Harry more if he had chosen Slytherin House. Harry choose Gryffindor simply because of what others had told him but he thought to think that he could still turn out to be a good Slytherin that could still fight against Voldemort but under Snape's and Dumbledore's tutoring.This is an interesting proposal. How would Snape have handled it, if Harry had wound up in Slytherin? Personally, I don’t think that Snape would have liked Harry any better. Draco probably would have, though. . .
Firstly, Quirrell had Voldemort on the back on his head who most certainly knows one or two personal things about Snape.I’ve always assumed that Quirrell was talking about Snape saving Harry at the Quidditch match. Quirrell is dismissive of the idea that Snape might want Harry dead. How is that interpreted by Voldemort? If Harry is responsible for Voldemort’s downfall and Snape was supposedly loyal to him, why shouldn’t Snape want Harry dead?
That would suggest that Voldemort knew Snape cared about Lily though because he never says that Snape loathed both of Harry's parents, just that he hated James.I don’t think it suggests Snape cared about Lily, just that he didn’t hate her.
Snape himself works with potentially dangerous potions and knowledge, even tantalizing his class that they might be able to "stopper death." And Snape's Pensieve opens Harry's eyes to the knowledge that his father might be less than perfect; Harry is tempted by the beauty of the "fruit" but quickly discovers that he has gotten more than he bargained for. So Snape is a key element in Harry's loss of innocence and his gaining of knowledge. I like it!! :tu:
I'm skeptical of a snake patronus, too, though when I was reading posts about the snake and the wand, that sounds remarkable like a "caduceus" of the god Mercury, the symbol of modern medicine. Of course, that has two snakes twined around it, too.'I thought a caduceus can be drawn with just one snake, too. This picture is from the American Medical Association website:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/images/system/ama_logo2.gif

Here is an interesting website on the origin of this symbol:http://drblayney.com/Asclepius.html

The probable medical origin of the single serpent around a rod: In ancient times infection by parasitic worms was common. The filarial worm Dracunculus medinensis aka "the fiery serpent", aka "the dragon of Medina" aka "the guinea worm" crawled around the victim's body, just under the skin. Physicians treated this infection by cutting a slit in the patient's skin, just in front of the worm's path. As the worm crawled out the cut, the physician carefully wound the pest around a stick until the entire animal had been removed. It is believed that because this type of infection was so common, physicians advertised their services by displaying a sign with the worm on a stick.

It talks about the double snake caduceus, as well. I think it does imply, though, that a true caduceus has two snakes.

The caduceus as a Medical symbol: The link between Hermes and his caduceus and medicine seems to have arisen by Hermes links with alchemy. Alchemists were referred to as the sons of Hermes, as Hermetists or Hermeticists and as "practitioners of the hermetic arts". By the end of the sixteenth century, the study of alchemy included not only medicine and pharmaceuticals but chemistry, mining and metallurgy. Despite learned opinion that it is the single snake staff of Asclepius that is the proper symbol of medicine, many medical groups have adopted the twin serpent caduceus of Hermes or Mercury as a medical symbol during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

Like the staff of Asclepius, the caduceus became associated with medicine through its use as a printer’s mark, as printers saw themselves as messengers of the printed word and diffusers of knowledge (hence the choice of the symbol of the messenger of the ancient gods). A major reason for the current popularity of the caduceus as a medical symbol was its official adoption as the insignia for the Medical Department of the United States Army in 1902.

He is the only dark person I think that would ever use a patronus. What do you mean when you say "dark person?"
Happy birthday Alisel!
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9th July 2005Wow! :wow:

Happy Birthday, Alisel! :birthday:
Now, who's going to set up the new thread, since we've gone past 1500?Ooh, can I do it?

ETA: Done! Version 4 of this thread is found here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=58536). :)

Version four (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=58536).