Who Will Fall in Love with Whom? V2 #3 [Archive]

lanifiel

June 6th, 2005, 11:35 am

Welcome to the "Who will fall in love with whom?" thread, more commonly known as The Love Thread. There have been over fifty versions of this thread, making it arguably the most popular thread on CoS Forums. Because of this, it’s also one of the more problematic threads, with "shipping wars" making the thread very difficult to manage and take part in. As a result of this, The Love Thread has more rules of structure than the forums as a whole.

There is going to be a simpler approach to The Love Thread's rules and structure. This will encourage a more uniform response in how students and staff deal with any problems that arise within the thread. There will be one central rule that will govern conduct, and a number of smaller rules that provide guidelines of acceptable conduct within The Love Thread.

Central Rule:

Engage the idea, not the poster. This is, perhaps, the most important rule for the love threads and it will be our central rule of thumb for governing love thread disputes. A true debate is one that takes place between ideas, not people or groups. This means when someone chooses to comment on a post made by another, the content of the post is examined for possible flaws, and then these are brought to the attention of the original poster, with supporting evidence.

This means that name-calling and personal insults directed towards individual shippers and entire ships will not be tolerated.
All debate will be held in a manner that is not disrespectful to opposing ships. If you make a rude or inflammatory comment, even if it pertains to another’s post, you will be penalised.
This gives a clear indication of when something is worthy of being reported.
Failure to comply with this rule will not be tolerated. (See below for penalty).
Other Rules:

One-Line Posts. One-line posts are not desirable within The Love Thread. Many posters will agree that the issues pertaining to love and relationships within the series are too complex to be summarised in one sentence. Continual one-line posts with no attempt to add anything new to the discussion is not acceptable behaviour.

Challenging statements. A challenging statement is something that contains an absolute on the part of a poster. For example, “Accept it, your ship is sunk!” or “You are wrong!” In many cases, these statements are based on subjective interpretation. If you believe a particular ship is sunk, you must provide sufficient evidence for your opinion so that the debate can continue. For example, “I believe that the HMS Tinfoil is sunk for these reasons: etc,” or, “I think your idea is flawed because, etc.” This encourages debate to continue, rather than infuriating or upsetting opposing ships. Direct challenging-statements no longer have a place in The Love Thread.
PLEASE NOTE: JKR is deliberately vague, on occasion, when it comes to the issue of who will end up with whom. There are compelling arguments that DO go both ways, especially when it comes to the issue of Hermione's affections. Justification that involves statements such as, "JKR said so!!!" is not a compelling enough argument, and will not be accepted in The Love Thread any longer. JKR has only dismissed two ships thus far, and they are: Draco/Hermione and Neville/Luna.

Signatures and Avatars. Signatures and avatars that mock or insult other ships will not be tolerated. By all means support your own ship, but ridiculing others because they don't agree with you is intolerable and will result in a penalty.

Talking about your warning points or love thread suspensions. The Love Thread is not the place to discuss the reasons for, or type of warnings, you have received. If you wish inquire as to the reasons for a particular warning, please owl a staff member and do not air your grievances in The Love Thread, or any other thread.

What ships can I support here? While you have freedom of choice to think what you wish about the love lives of the HP characters, there are some ships that are not to be discussed in The Love Thread. These include Teacher/Student, or Adult/Child, slash pairings and Human/Otherwise.
Penalties:Since there is a new structure there is also a new penalty system for the love thread.

Breaking the Central Rule will result in two (2) warning points being added to your profile, and a ten-day suspension from The Love Thread. During these ten days you are NOT welcome to post in the Love Thread, nor are you welcome to participate in The Love Files. If you choose to post in The Love Thread or The Love Files you will receive a further two (2) points and another ten-day suspension on top of your current one. If you choose to post again you will be permanently banned.

These warnings will be public and private. You will receive a message from the staff through the owlery, however, staff will also post details in The Love Thread informing the membership of who is under a 10-day suspension and why.
The suspension will start as soon you are online after your warning owl is sent. By posting a public alert of the warning, there will be no excuses for continuing to post in The Love Thread.

Breaking one of the minor rules will first result in an official warning (one point). You will not be suspended from posting in The Love Thread or The Love Files, however, constantly breaking any of the minor rules will result in a harsher penalty.

Constantly breaking the minor rules after an official warning will result in two (2) warning points being added to your profile and a five-day suspension from The Love Thread. During these five days you are NOT welcome to post in The Love Thread, nor are you welcome to participate in The Love Files. If you choose to post in The Love Thread or The Love Files you will receive a further two (2) points and a ten-day suspension in addition to your five-day suspension. If you choose to post again you will be permanently banned.
These warnings will be public and private. You will receive a message from the staff through the owlery, however, staff will also post details in The Love Thread informing the membership of who is under a 10-day suspension and why.
The suspension will start as soon you are online after your warning owl is sent. By posting a public alert of the warning, there will be no excuses for continuing to post in The Love Thread.
Please Note: Ignorance of the rules is never an excuse. Anyone who chooses to participate in The Love Thread will be subject to all of CoS's rules, regardless of whether you have read the rules or not.

If you wish to ask any questions about the love thread, or the rules that exist here then please owl lanifiel (http://www.cosforums.com/member.php?u=851), Morgoth (http://www.cosforums.com/member.php?u=3) or Rotsiepots (http://www.cosforums.com/member.php?u=788).

...

v@sh

June 6th, 2005, 11:49 am

First! :D

Okay, on with the real post:

This is my first post in long long while from this LT, I thought this is the perfect opportunity to just post on the LT, and what better way to do it as I have the first post already occupied.

Anyway, regarding the spoiler quote that was posted recently on mugglenet (am I allowed to say anything in regards to this?), I think whilst the whole shipping community will be now extremely looking forward to HBP, the pairings that might be expected shouldn't be expected as 'obvious' they may seemed from our own eyes. I think everyone is wearing some sort of coloured sunglasses around purely because we wish to see two of the characters match together for a variety of reasons.

So will the outcome of HBP deter anyone from changing their shipping preferences?

Everyone seems to be so emotionally attached to the ships, it is quite frightening at times...reading lines such as "Hermione should be clinging onto Ron, not Harry...get away from Harry". Not that its a bad thing, but sometimes people do go a little far.

So will the outcome of HBP deter anyone from changing their shipping preferences?

Some yes. The rest, I doubt it.

Looking at the three main ships at the moment:

Ron/Hermione - based on the 'tension' between the both of them, it is the classic love/hate relationship. However, as we always have seen is in love/hate relationships is that often they will change one another to respect the other's opinions, they still may banter - not argue (there is a difference) - with one another, but the relationship dynamics usually change in these typecast relationships to a more respectful/loyal relationship.

Harry/Ginny - the fairytale type relationship Chocolate Shippers enjoy, particuarly with the imagery given at the end of PS/SS. But does that exactly have an affect on the outcome of the series? It seems very illogical IMO that Harry, since COS has noticed Ginny's affection towards him and yet has done nothing up to and including OOTP. Whilst Ginny has increased her importance in the books, for Harry to suddenly find Ginny an extremely good catch after four/five years of ignoring her I cannot see happening. Even if Cho is now out of the frame.

Harry/Hermione - based on friendship, but because they are friends it does not mean they cannot become lovers whether it is they have been friends for two years or five years, the foundations are there and that is the potential which has been growing more and more as the books progress, whether JKR decides to pair them up would not be a surprise to me.

As for quotes, I think they are overrated. They do nothing to solidify any of the arguments that ANY ship presents. They are ambigious, open to interpretation, not solid unless you count ones like H/C and D/H, and misleading. I think it would be folly to base evidence on quotes alone.

Predictions for HBP:

Ron/Luna
Harry/Hermione

A lot of fans won't be happy with my opinion, but if JKR heads that way, a lot of fans won't be happy with her either. I can see accusations flying everywhere if that were to occur. The fact of the matter is, the love pairings are not certain, JKR hasn't confirmed nothing except the sinkage of two ships that were never going to work out, it is still open. As I have shown above, these will the most likely pairings IMO to work. I'll be returning to see the reactions once HBP is released. It sure will be interesting.

So the question is: Will you change ships if your desired preference does not come to fruition after HBP? Even if it seems inevitable the characters will not sway for a change in partners?

So I do not get a warning point from Lani, I think the current ships should be taken with a grain of salt..lemme finish, keep checking if I'm gonna get docked points, I will make my mark...just wait a couple of minute people :)

Happy Posting

Cheers,

v@sh

cerussite

June 6th, 2005, 12:04 pm

Lila V Brious

Actually, I've noticed that Neville has a thing for Ginny... I wonder if she likes him. She seems to like more of confident/rebel type. I don't think she can be interested in a guy like Neville.

It is debatable that Neville likes Ginny, but I think there is more evidence of him liking Hermione at this point. Also I don't think that JK would of had them go to the yule ball together if they were going to end up together, but you never know. Could be an example of coming full circle (although a proper full circle would be, to be with Harry as that is who she liked first :) )

Although in Nevilles defence - he has come leaps and bounds. And I believe more is in store for him. I randomly shift from Neville will be a teacher to Neville is gonna die.

Question. If a character dies while in a relationship with another character (even though they are only 16/17/18), do you consider that ending up with some one, even if they move on to some one else in the long run.

I.E Hermione goes out with Ron... Ron dies :upset: while still in a relationship with Hermione, in the epilogue we find out Hermione married Harry had 50 kids and lived happily ever after.

Do you consider that she ended up with both or just Harry, or do you say Ron ended up with Hermione but Hermione ended up with Harry. Or maybe you claim it was always meant to be Ron etc

eeeh? I am so bored. work is so boring :(

On a side note, I like that picture in you sig, Lanifiel!

meesha1971

June 6th, 2005, 12:46 pm

But harry and Hermione are likely to abandon Ron? :huh: Why?

Tag along? Perhaps he'd still be there because they'd still be the trio? :huh: They'd still be friends, no matter who got with whom.

And neither is Ginny. None of it makes sense. No one part of the trio is going to feel left out if two get together. Do you think JKR would do this to them? No. She's going to work it out exactly like she wants too.

Cheers, Bama

It isn't that anybody would be abandoned. The way I see it, if Ron and Hermione become a couple, the trio would remain intact because I don't believe that Harry has any feelings for Hermione other than friendship. IMO, he sees that they like each other and he has no problem with it. During the post Yule Ball argument when Hermione tells Ron to "ask me first and not as a last resort" Harry is thinking that Hermione got the point much better than Ron had. He is not bothered by this fact at all. He has no reaction to Hermione kissing him at the end of GOF other than to note she had never done it before. He has no reaction to Hermione kissing Ron before his first Quidditch game but notes Ron's strong reaction to the kiss. Add to that Harry's observations of them throughout the books - comparing them to Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, etc... I think that Harry realizes that they like each other and has no problem with it.

On the other hand, I believe Ron does have strong feelings for Hermione besides friendship. He has shown jealousy towards Krum and he was really bothered by the fact that Hermione had a date for the ball BEFORE he knew it was Krum, etc... If Harry and Hermione were to become a couple then I don't believe that Ron would be comfortable being around them. I think it would end his friendship with them. I don't think he would be able to deal with it. I don't believe they would still be friends no matter who got with whom. The three of them would only remain friends if Ron and Hermione get together, IMO.

JKR has written Ron as an insecure character. He has issues about being poor, having all his possessions second hand, etc... He feels overshadowed by his older brothers and his best friend is famous so he is often overshadowed there as well. The way he has been written leads me to believe that it would be devastating to Ron and Harry's friendship if Harry gets the girl he likes. Look at what happened in GOF when Harry was chosen for the tournement.

Ginny and Luna are not part of the original trio. However, the trio has been expanded to six with Ginny, Luna, and Neville by the end of OOTP. I'm not sure why this would be significant as far as the LI arguments go though. I haven't seen any canon evidence that convinces me Harry has feelings other than friendship for anyone except Cho and that's over. I don't see and romantic undertones with Ginny or Luna. Harry notices Ginny more in OOTP and she has become a more prominent figure so to speak but he hasn't shown romantic interest towards her. Luna made him feel better about Sirius' death but he felt pity for her. We will have to wait and see who Harry is interested in.

You might ask the same thing of hermione. Why has Hermione and harry= Romance? been hammered home so hard? why did JKR let us know that Krum thought Hermione liked Harry? why does Cho think the very same thing? why does the possibility keep being brought up? Why does Hermione act suspicious when something finally comes of ChoHarry?

I don't agree that Hermione and Harry = Romance has been hammered home at all. What I got from all that is that Rita's article caused them a lot of problems. Both Harry and Hermione denied being boyfriend/girlfriend. Harry comes right out and says she's not my girlfriend. Hermione calls it "rubbish". Both find the idea laughable. As for Molly's behavior, I think she knows that Ron likes Hermione as more than a friend and was upset by thinking that Hermione chose someone other than Ron. She was quite cheerful and friendly towards Hermione after Harry told her that Hermione was not his girlfriend. That's just my opinion.

Krum confronted Harry AFTER the second task in the lake. He is not making any progress with Hermione. She talks about Harry and he has seen the article written by Rita. He is perfectly happy and no longer suspicious at all after Harry assures him that they are only friends.

I don't believe that Cho is truly jealous of Hermione as a "romantic rival". She had ulterior motives in wanting to go out with Harry. She wanted him to talk about what happened to Cedric. She wanted to know if Cedric talked about her before he died. She used Hermione as a scapegoat and became angry AFTER she found out that he had talked about Cedric with Ron and Hermione. The other time she shows "jealousy" towards Hermione is when she is trying to justify her friend turning the DA into Umbridge. She talked Marietta into joining the DA when she didn't really want to and is partially responsible for what happened. She tries to turn it around on Hermione to ease her own conscience, IMO.

I don't find Hermione's behavior in the post kiss scene suspicious at all. It seems very clear to me that she is trying to help Harry understand Cho's behavior. She is usually brisk and businesslike when explaining things to Harry and Ron. Nor do I believe she is "hiding" behind her letter. I think she is giving more attention to the letter than Harry, which is why she is vague. When she realizes that Harry is clueless about Cho's feelings she puts the letter aside and gives him a really good explanation of what Cho is feeling and why. What I find significant in the post kiss scene is her reaction to Ron. Yes, Ron is exhibiting "locker room" behavior and showing his ignorance of girls but so is Harry. Harry gets a pitying expression and a patient explanation but she snaps at Ron and tells him he has the emotional range of a teaspoon. Why such a stronger reaction to Ron? I don't think she snaps at Ron because she is upset by Harry kissing Cho. I think she snaps at Ron because she is frustrated with him. Harry has kissed the girl he likes but Ron hasn't even told her how he feels. That's my impression.

Another point in this scene that shows Hermione is not jealous of Cho is the fact that she tells Harry to ask Cho out. Harry is having doubts about dating Cho and Ron picks up on this and says maybe he doesn't want to. Hermione has the perfect opportunity to nip Harry's relationship in the bud here. She could tell Harry that maybe he shouldn't ask Cho out but she doesn't. She encourages him to date Cho. That is not jealous behavior.

Nor is her behavior suspicious after the date. She is in a good mood because they got Harry's interview done and it will be published. They have pulled one over on Umbridge. Again, she gives Harry a good explanation of where he went wrong. She is not psychic and could not have known the mistakes Harry was going to make in advance. She is being a good friend in both of these scenes and there is nothing suspicious in her behavior that shows any jealousy towards Cho at all.

As far as the "ugly" comment. I agree it was an unusual thing for her to say. However, it can be interpreted another way. Her behavior at the end of this scene when she sighs about Ron being worse than Harry tells me that she is thinking about the lack of progress in her own relationship with Ron. That is my opinion. She could be trying to figure out why Ron hasn't made a move and is "fishing" for a clue why Ron hasn't said anything. Ron has shown a juvenile attitude towards appearances. Maybe she is worried that Ron thinks she is ugly.

cerussite

June 6th, 2005, 1:01 pm

So will the outcome of HBP deter anyone from changing their shipping preferences?

Everyone seems to be so emotionally attached to the ships, it is quite frightening at times...reading lines such as "Hermione should be clinging onto Ron, not Harry...get away from Harry". Not that its a bad thing, but sometimes people do go a little far.

So will the outcome of HBP deter anyone from changing their shipping preferences?

Some yes. The rest, I doubt it.

Yes some people can be scary and you don't see the worst of it her, you should see some of the shipper boards of any ship :scared:

It's hard to say (of course if Ginny pegs it) what will make me change ship. But I will read HBP with an open mind. And I don't mind jumping ship, if I think there is enough evidence to support it :)

Ron/Hermione - based on the 'tension' between the both of them, it is the classic love/hate relationship. However, as we always have seen is in love/hate relationships is that often they will change one another to respect the other's opinions, they still may banter - not argue (there is a difference) - with one another, but the relationship dynamics usually change in these typecast relationships to a more respectful/loyal relationship.

Harry/Ginny - the fairytale type relationship Chocolate Shippers enjoy, particuarly with the imagery given at the end of PS/SS. But does that exactly have an affect on the outcome of the series? It seems very illogical IMO that Harry, since COS has noticed Ginny's affection towards him and yet has done nothing up to and including OOTP. Whilst Ginny has increased her importance in the books, for Harry to suddenly find Ginny an extremely good catch after four/five years of ignoring her I cannot see happening. Even if Cho is now out of the frame.

The whole point is that Harry has never really seen the real Ginny just a pale shadow becuase she was suffering from crush induced silence. Now that Harry can see her for her true self and not some shy little girl we hope that it will develop into more. There is also a certain irony to to it, that she fancied him all this time, he didn't notice... she moves on... he notices...starts crushing in her... she plays hard to get... they get together in the end.

Harry/Hermione - based on friendship, but because they are friends it does not mean they cannot become lovers whether it is they have been friends for two years or five years, the foundations are there and that is the potential which has been growing more and more as the books progress, whether JKR decides to pair them up would not be a surprise to me.

One must always remember we are talking about literature. For Harry to develop feelings chances are something is going to have to happen to initiate them. We have had life or death situations,Hermione dating another guy, hermione dressed up, Hermione alsways helping him, people saying they are together already... what device will JK use to get Harry to realise what he has been missing? That is the argument, not they can't get together because they are friends but more Harry knows everything about her, has been through life and death with her and still there is nothing.

As for quotes, I think they are overrated. They do nothing to solidify any of the arguments that ANY ship presents. They are ambigious, open to interpretation, not solid unless you count ones like H/C and D/H, and misleading. I think it would be folly to base evidence on quotes alone.

I already had my ships before I even knew of the existance of quotes :) but still they help patch up some holes that may develop.

Predictions for HBP:

Ron/Luna
Harry/Hermione

A lot of fans won't be happy with my opinion, but if JKR heads that way, a lot of fans won't be happy with her either. I can see accusations flying everywhere if that were to occur. The fact of the matter is, the love pairings are not certain, JKR hasn't confirmed nothing except the sinkage of two ships that were never going to work out, it is still open. As I have shown above, these will the most likely pairings IMO to work. I'll be returning to see the reactions once HBP is released. It sure will be interesting.

It's not that any one will be unhappy, (if you were JK yes, but as you aren't... ... ...I hope) but we may disagree :)

So the question is: Will you change ships if your desired preference does not come to fruition after HBP? Even if it seems inevitable the characters will not sway for a change in partners?

See above

Don't be a stranger, I would like if you came to post before HBP, few seem to post when I can post.

Happy Posting

Cheers,

v@sh

Cheers to you too :cool: :tu:

Cerussite

Deevo

June 6th, 2005, 1:04 pm

Right then I think I'll continue a tradition that I started a few threads back but one I feel is probably more important now than it has been. To avoid any confusion and to let all and sundry know where I am coming from on the subject allow me to lay a few cards out on the table.

This will be pretty much a rehash of what I've posted in past threads with a few additions but I feel the main points still bear repeating, more so now.

Out of the three most prominent ship groups the ones I personally favour are Hermione/Ron (usually called Heron from Hermione and Ron :eyebrows:) and Harry/Ginny (mostly called Chocolate from the OOTP easter egg scene between the two in the library).

Why does a guy my age get involved in what many see as a discussion on a somewhat silly subject in a bunch of "kid's books"? Well simple really, it's a good bit of fun. Like much of my peer group I'd heard about Harry Potter through the news and seeing stories of it's popularity among the younger set. I figured at the time it was just another fad that would come and go in due course, this wasn't aided by the contempt that I held (and still do to a point) for much of the current popular youth culture be it music, tv, films or books. Well that changed when I rented Philosopher's Stone on a whim from my local video store (it was actually on a free rental voucher) and I was so impressed by the story and the production I literally went out and bought the book the next day.

One of the things that's always impressed me about the works is how Jo Rowling managed to present such ordinary characters, that is characters with average everyday flaws even though they are in an exceptional setting. This is essentially a coming of age series and one of the major developments in anyone's teen years is the notice and appreciation of the opposite sex, from 'cooties to curls' if you will. While not the centre of the story how our characters deal with this is significant and can make for some entertaining reading and even more entertaining speculation.

Well then to the point, why do I ship the way I do?

Well I primarily favour the Ron/Hermione combination for a couple of reasons. First of all, in my opinion, it's an obvious one that has been pretty clear in the books, particularly from POA on. Hermione was the first to indicate the possibiliy to me while Ron at the time remained very much the adolescent boy but I feel he's begun to catch on toward the end of OOTP. The other reason I feel this will go ahead is that Ron and Hermione both play significant, if different, roles as Harry's friends and supporters. IMO In the unlikely event of a Harry/Hermione relationship coming forward, Ron's part in the trio would be significantly diminished while were the Ron/Hermione pairing to come about both could remain Harry's good friends while their closeness could actually strengthen their abilities and value to Harry. 'But won't Harry be jealous of them?' I hear you ask. Not if Harry doesn't feel that way about Hermioine and despite what supporters of a Harry/Hermione ship have said in the past about their feelings being apparent I don't believe that there is anything that's been presented that cannot also be interpreted as the relationship between good friends.

The other ship I favour is a bit more speculative at this stage though I feel that Ginny is the most likely candidate for Harry's romantic attention even if neither seem to be rushing toward one another at this stage. Mainly I feel that Ginny is one of the few girls in the series, the other main one being Luna, who can reach Harry on an emotional level. A lot of this boils down to their similarities both in personality and in shared experience. Both are strong willed, powerful in the craft, brave, athletic and both have a certain disregard for the rules when they stand in the way of the greater good. That and they have both been touched by Voldemort, and a couple of passages in the books, specifically the dementor in the train scene in POA and the Christmas scene when Ginny reminded Harry that she too had been posessed by Voldemort, have given me reason to suspect we haven't yet seen the full extent or repercussions of Ginny's experience. That and I really like them as a couple.

Anyway I've included links to editorials on both ships in my signature, editorials that explain things much more eloquently than this over the hill High School English drop out can.

Well I'll just finish off by saying that all of the above is opinion and speculation, my life won't be shattered if none of it comes to pass. After all this is Jo Rowling's work and, like most if not all here, I have great faith that whatever happens she won't let us down.

That's it, I'm looking forward to seeing just how this discussion progresses from here.
__________________

ETA: Just for the record from now till the 17th of July I'll be mainly lurking about here as I don't think at this point that I really have an awful lot to input into this discussion prior to the release of HBP. Essentially, till we get further input from Jo and the new book there isn't an awful lot that hasn't been discussed and opinions that have been formed are fairly well set in place. However I still enjoy reading the discussions and if there is something of value I feel I can add I'll still do so. So all I'll say is roll on the 17th of July and here's hoping some answers are forthcoming.

Catcha round. :tu:

erynae

June 6th, 2005, 1:11 pm

Yay, new thread!

Towards the end of the last thread, I changed ships. Yes, that's right - I changed from being a Heron, Chocolate and Moonchild to being a Harmonian, Red Moon and SIGNS. And no, I don't regret it or anything like that. I enjoy being the ship that I am now. :p

JKR has written Ron as an insecure character. He has issues about being poor, having all his possessions second hand, etc... He feels overshadowed by his older brothers and his best friend is famous so he is often overshadowed there as well. The way he has been written leads me to believe that it would be devastating to Ron and Harry's friendship if Harry gets the girl he likes. Look at what happened in GOF when Harry was chosen for the tournement.

Ron's insecurity is one reason why R/Hr wouldn't work. I don't see how Ron could cope if he was in a relationship with a girl who was always achieving higher than he was.

The way I see it, if Ron and Hermione become a couple, the trio would remain intact because I don't believe that Harry has any feelings for Hermione other than friendship.

If R/Hr happened, I don't see the trio remaining intact at all. Remember how Harry reacted when he learnt that they spent the summer together without him? Do you think he could cope with that for the rest of his life?

Ginny and Luna are not part of the original trio. However, the trio has been expanded to six with Ginny, Luna, and Neville by the end of OOTP. I'm not sure why this would be significant as far as the LI arguments go though.

That's why H/Hr, R/L and last but not least N/G work so well - none of the sextet is without a partner. That'll come in handy when they go to Hogsmeade. Oh yes, I can see the triple dates now.

What intrigues me is when JKR sunk Neville/Luna - this ship was one that was shipped by a majority of R/Hr's + H/G's so they too could have triple dates and it would fit so nice and snugly - but yet, she didn't sink N/G or R/L, which are both alongside pairings to H/Hr.

I don't believe that Cho is truly jealous of Hermione as a "romantic rival". She had ulterior motives in wanting to go out with Harry. She wanted him to talk about what happened to Cedric. She wanted to know if Cedric talked about her before he died. She used Hermione as a scapegoat and became angry AFTER she found out that he had talked about Cedric with Ron and Hermione. The other time she shows "jealousy" towards Hermione is when she is trying to justify her friend turning the DA into Umbridge. She talked Marietta into joining the DA when she didn't really want to and is partially responsible for what happened. She tries to turn it around on Hermione to ease her own conscience, IMO.

We differ here then. I think that Cho was indeed jealous of Hermione - who wouldn't be jealous of Hermione, when she is so close to Harry? And the point that Harmonians make isn't Cho being jealous itself, it's how Harry responded to her jealousy. Harry completely defended her, and placed Hermione above Cho, who was meant to be his LI.

She is not psychic and could not have known the mistakes Harry was going to make in advance. She is being a good friend in both of these scenes and there is nothing suspicious in her behavior that shows any jealousy towards Cho at all.

Well, obviously she couldn't possibly know every little detail that happened on their date, but as I said on the previous thread, even Crabbe and Goyle could suss out how the date went - and Hermione is way above their intellect, so why should she have to ask?

As far as the "ugly" comment. I agree it was an unusual thing for her to say. However, it can be interpreted another way. Her behavior at the end of this scene when she sighs about Ron being worse than Harry tells me that she is thinking about the lack of progress in her own relationship with Ron.

If there is such a lack of development with her so called relationship with Ron a year after the Yule Ball, wouldn't one think that it's time to move on? Although I hate to say this, but Hermione could parallel Ginny here - Ginny gave up on Harry, Hermione gave up on Ron.

So the question is: Will you change ships if your desired preference does not come to fruition after HBP? Even if it seems inevitable the characters will not sway for a change in partners?

Oh dear no, I've changed ships way too many times, I want to stay put for once! Actually, I do believe that the ships that I am now are the ships for me, so no, I don't think I'll change at all.

SSJ_Jup81

June 6th, 2005, 1:21 pm

Ron's insecurity is one reason why R/Hr wouldn't work. I don't see how Ron could cope if he was in a relationship with a girl who was always achieving higher than he was.The only way Hermione "achieves higher than" Ron, is through schoolwork, and schoolwork alone. But that's no surprise, since Hermione's a higher acheiver than everyone, Harry included, in this sense. It's obvious Ron doesn't care much about schoolwork where he'd actually mope around over it if Hermione did better than him at it.
If R/Hr happened, I don't see the trio remaining intact at all. Remember how Harry reacted when he learnt that they spent the summer together without him? Do you think he could cope with that for the rest of his life?Not if Harry doesn't have romantic feelings towards Hermione, which he doesn't and that is canon. I'll give the benefit of the doubt for Hermione, since we can't read her mind and such.

Anyway, Harry was mad because he was having a bad time with the Dursleys, while his two best friends were having a decent one. He wasn't mad at their being together having fun, he was mad at their having fun period. And like someone else pointed, at no other time in the book has Harry grown angry at Ron and Hermione doing things together without him. That's very telling, imho.
That's why H/Hr, R/L and last but not least N/G work so well - none of the sextet is without a partner. That'll come in handy when they go to Hogsmeade. Oh yes, I can see the triple dates now.If these were romance novels, I would agree with that. Then again, if JKR started to write in this fashion, I wouldn't be reading these books at all.
What intrigues me is when JKR sunk Neville/Luna - this ship was one that was shipped by a majority of R/Hr's + H/G's so they too could have triple dates and it would fit so nice and snugly - but yet, she didn't sink N/G or R/L, which are both alongside pairings to H/Hr.No one asked about Neville x Ginny or Ron x Luna for her to sink, did they?
We differ here then. I think that Cho was indeed jealous of Hermione - who wouldn't be jealous of Hermione, when she is so close to Harry? And the point that Harmonians make isn't Cho being jealous itself, it's how Harry responded to her jealousy. Harry completely defended her, and placed Hermione above Cho, who was meant to be his LI.I disagree with this whole-heartedly for reasons already mentioned. For the date, Cho mentioned "other girls" so this, to me, showed that she wasn't jealous of just Hermione, but any other girls he was planning on meeting. The other time, where she found out that Harry had spoken to both Ron and Hermione about Cedric, she grew jealous that he could share that with his "female friend" and not with her, her girlfriend. I guess I will admit that she was a bit jealous there, but more so annoyed over the situation, imo.
Well, obviously she couldn't possibly know every little detail that happened on their date, but as I said on the previous thread, even Crabbe and Goyle could suss out how the date went - and Hermione is way above their intellect, so why should she have to ask?Because, like in previous books and times, when Hermione is passionate about something, she tends to overlook other things and other people's feelings. She was really into getting that artilce out to warn the public about the escaped Death Eaters.
If there is such a lack of development with her so called relationship with Ron a year after the Yule Ball, wouldn't one think that it's time to move on? Although I hate to say this, but Hermione could parallel Ginny here - Ginny gave up on Harry, Hermione gave up on Ron.We don't know if she gave up on him or not. Remember, Hermione has shown to be old-fashioned in the sense that the guy is supposed to ask out the girl. She's probably still waiting for Ron to literally come out and say something. Maybe HBP'll clear that up.

Also, in the case of Ginny, I get the impression that Michael showed an interest in her, and she grew to like him. Hermione hasn't been in this situation as of yet, and Viktor doesn't truly count since it's obvious she doesn't like him in that way.

IceKat55

June 6th, 2005, 1:28 pm

I think everyone is wearing some sort of coloured sunglasses around purely because we wish to see two of the characters match together for a variety of reasons.
I actually don't know that this is the case (well, in my case, at least) - - I don't ship R/Hr because I like it or I wish for them to be together. I ship them because I believe, 100%, that it's where Rowling is headed, judging by the clues she's laid in her books, her interview quotes, and what she allows the filmmakers to do on-screen. Just sayin'. ;)

So the question is: Will you change ships if your desired preference does not come to fruition after HBP? Even if it seems inevitable the characters will not sway for a change in partners?
If Rowling decides, in the home stretch, to do a '180' and have Hermione end up with someone other than Ron, then I'll be very, very confused, but yes, I will board whatever ship Rowling presents. And the same with Harry/Ginny. If either of them end up with someone else, again, I'll be confused, but will ask permission to board. :)

meesha1971

June 6th, 2005, 1:38 pm

Ah yes, but there are claims that that has all changed now and Hermione is more important or is the heroine. you know the argument... 'that quote was made all the way back in ....'

Yes, I know the argument. Doesn’t seem to matter that JKR had the series planned out “all they back in…” :rolleyes: I can’t remember the exact quote though. I do see them that way to a certain extent – very important sidekicks though.

I was reading that argument and I picked up that it was changed from this morning to yesterday, maybe I read it it wrong... when I get home I can check my copy. It was an early one so by default the answer will be what's not in that.

How ever, if any one has the paper back and wishes to jump in, please do

You are quite right. I stand corrected. I was thinking backwards this morning. It was 5am and I hadn’t been up long. :blush: The original debate was whether Dumbledore told her about Harry’s behavior. Early versions of the text read “this morning” which meant Dumbledore could have told her about Harry. The correction was “yesterday morning” which was before the EE incident so it is unlikely that Dumbledore told her about Harry. Dumbledore told her about the attack on Mr. Weasley and Ron and Ginny told her what happened with Harry after she arrived.

Really it doesn't change anything for me either way though. Ron and Ginny told her, that's canon and that's good enough for me. They more than likely couldn't communicate by owls etc because they were being watched so she came in offered her support was told about Harry went up to pull him out of his room. a few minutes is plenty of time to do that.

I totally agree with you here. They couldn’t communicate with owls. I don’t have the book but they were told to be very careful sending owls because they could be intercepted. What happened with Harry was definitely not something they could send with an owl. This scene is not shippy in any way. It only shows that Hermione was there for both of her friends when they needed her.

This is literature, and the bickering couples pop up all over the place. If you look up the user Banduraqueen she posted quite a few places where it is used. Of the top of my head I can name Belgarion and in media I can name Han and Liea from star wars. Also practically any manga out there has the bickering couples convention.

Hermone isn't perfect, all this it's below her but not Ron just... arrghh never mind. She is the argumentative type, it stands to reason that her relationship would likely follow this pattern somewhat, as would Rons.

Add to that any romance novel you pick up. It is a common literary device for romance. Han and Leia are a really good example though, particularly considering the common elements between the two stories. The trio of friends banding together to fight the ultimate evil. Luke is the hero with the destiny and Han and Leia are his “sidekicks”. I know, Luke and Leia were brother and sister but we didn’t find that out until the end. Actually, that still fits because I see Harry and Hermione as having a brother/sister relationship. :eyebrows:

Deevo

June 6th, 2005, 1:46 pm

If Rowling decides, in the home stretch, to do a '180' and have Hermione end up with someone other than Ron, then I'll be very, very confused, but yes, I will board whatever ship Rowling presents. And the same with Harry/Ginny. If either of them end up with someone else, again, I'll be confused, but will ask permission to board. :)
Indeed, given Jo's writing to date if she were to proceed down that path I doubt it would be at all confusing in the end. Still, given events to date I find it unlikely. :eyebrows:

hurricaneez1

June 6th, 2005, 1:56 pm

MadameSparks

June 6th, 2005, 2:06 pm

sorry i can't make this longer than a one liner....but where do the old LTs go when they put up a new LT?

erynae

June 6th, 2005, 2:12 pm

We can talk all we want about H/Hr and R/Hr but I think the fact of the matter is that we only really have evidence (book and movie) of R/Hr. Time and again I have gone back through the books looking for anything that remotely resembles evidence of possible upcoming romance between H/Hr and I still cant find it. Its just not there.

Bottomline...I highly doubt that JK is going to spend 5 books building up to one relationship (R/Hr) and then suddenly shift gears and go the other way. That just wouldnt make sense.

There is canon for H/Hr actually. I suggest rereading OotP, and don't just concentrate on the surface of the interactions. Read between the lines. That's what JKR and Greenday told us to do.

As for the movies, I can't see how anyone could see that the movies are more R/Hr than H/Hr. R/Hr had what...one moment? And that was a bit of hand holding, but if you watch PoA again, you'll see that Harry and Hermione are constantly holding hands and are in one another's arms. My favourite H/Hr scene would be where Harry does the Patronus, and then we go back and see it from behind Hermione, and it's just their shadow. Magical. And then when the Dementors come, H + Hr are standing really close together and they look up at the Dementors at the same moment. Then there's the part where Hermione lands on top of Harry ;)

sorry i can't make this longer than a one liner....but where do the old LTs go when they put up a new LT?

The archive thread, I think.

EDIT: It's at the History of Magic thread. At the top, you'll see History of Magic Reference Books thread.

cerussite

June 6th, 2005, 2:18 pm

sorry i can't make this longer than a one liner....but where do the old LTs go when they put up a new LT?

Is it history of magic or something like that, take that back I just went to look and that is where the first five books are discussed.

Found it, it's in divination studies but no longer pinned

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=50552

ok :)

I <3 Ron

June 6th, 2005, 2:21 pm

As for the movies, I can't see how anyone could see that the movies are more R/Hr than H/Hr. R/Hr had what...one moment? And that was a bit of hand holding, but if you watch PoA again, you'll see that Harry and Hermione are constantly holding hands and are in one another's arms. My favourite H/Hr scene would be where Harry does the Patronus, and then we go back and see it from behind Hermione, and it's just their shadow. Magical. And then when the Dementors come, H + Hr are standing really close together and they look up at the Dementors at the same moment. Then there's the part where Hermione lands on top of Harry ;)

Even if Ron and Hermione only have one moment (even though I'm fairly sure they have several), there is a difference between their few moments and Harry and Hermione's numerous. When Ron and Hermione jump to hold hands, the scene is very focused on their discomfort. When Harry and Hermione hold hands it's out of fear also, but it doesn't capture the attention of the scene because it's natrual for them as friends to do this. Ron and Hermione have their underlying tention that neither will admitt to, so even while Harry is being possibly threatened by a Buckbeak, their moment together gets the most focus in the scene.

cerussite

June 6th, 2005, 2:24 pm

There is canon for H/Hr actually. I suggest rereading OotP, and don't just concentrate on the surface of the interactions. Read between the lines. That's what JKR and Greenday told us to do.

As for the movies, I can't see how anyone could see that the movies are more R/Hr than H/Hr. R/Hr had what...one moment? And that was a bit of hand holding, but if you watch PoA again, you'll see that Harry and Hermione are constantly holding hands and are in one another's arms. My favourite H/Hr scene would be where Harry does the Patronus, and then we go back and see it from behind Hermione, and it's just their shadow. Magical. And then when the Dementors come, H + Hr are standing really close together and they look up at the Dementors at the same moment. Then there's the part where Hermione lands on top of Harry ;)

Qoute
Personally I feel that reading between the lines comes from the fact that neither of them has said 'I love you, date me!'

So it may be obvious but because no one has said it out loud it is still reading between the lines and interpreting the evidence.

Movie
But there is no arkwardness that is typically associated with romance in any of those scenes, especially teenagers. Also the directors say they are portraying R/Hr themselves.

Luna_Anne

June 6th, 2005, 2:32 pm

It seems obvious to me that Ron has feeling for Hermione, but as he is a bit thick on that subject, he doesn't realise it yet. Even Harry got the point better than Ron at the Yule Brawl. He knew that Ron was jealous of Krum taking Hermione to the Ball and that Hermione also knew this and was telling Ron to next time hurry up and ask before someone else did.

MadameSparks

June 6th, 2005, 2:35 pm

The archive thread, I think.

EDIT: It's at the History of Magic thread. At the top, you'll see History of Magic Reference Books thread.

Is it history of magic or something like that, take that back I just went to look and that is where the first five books are discussed.

Found it, it's in divination studies but no longer pinned

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=50552

ok

Thanks guys :)

Ok so this weekend I was rereading OotP and was struck again by how Harry drops out of the conversation when Ron and Hermione are around. Ron and Hermy address each other and address the trio or talk to themselves, but when the trio is together Harry hardly speaks and they hardly speak directly to only Harry. This spoke volumes about Hermy and Ron's ability to communicate with each other about things other than Harry (as some feel that in their one on one time they are ONLY talking about harry) It seems unreasonable to me to assume that two people so interested in talking about all manner of topics in Harry's presence would be reduced to either a)idle gossip (as is talking behind someones back) or b) heroic sdmiration (as would be if all they could discuss was how neat harry is) As neither option is in character for either, I think that it's pretty clear that their one on one time is filled with lively discussion that encourages each to think, just as it does when harry is present.

Also, I am almost willing to challenge anyone to givw me a chapter from book 2 or 4 (those are what i have at work with me today) just go down the table of contents and pick one....and in that chapter where the trio is together I can almost gauruntee that Ron and Hermione will not only dominate the conversation they will speak to eachother and build off eachother more than either speaks directly to Harry or builds off what he says. Ron and Hermione have superior communication skills between the two and do not hide their opinions from each other (which I believe in the battle over Hermione's heart she's going to want someone who is forthcoming and who is able to challenge and stimulate her debate skills, not someone who refuses to speak his opinion in fear of "setting her off")

Madelina

June 6th, 2005, 2:46 pm

Very interesting. It does seem as if Ron and Hermione are meant for each other. After all, Ron braved his worst fear just on the chance that it would help Hermione. And Harry does seem on the edges of things when the trio are speaking together.

grrliz

June 6th, 2005, 3:04 pm

{from previous version of Love Thread}

****ought long and hard.>
<decided to go her English teacher and demand her money back>
<not to forget the professor of formal logic>
Hey, I will be in money! :rotfl:
ikuko you are recieving the mandatory two warning points and ten-day love thread ban for violating the Central Rule of the Love Thread. It is absolutely unnecessary and quite offensive to imply that those who believe in a ship that you don't support are lacking in English reading skills or the ability to be logical.

Your ten-day ban starts now, and you can post again in the Love Thread on June 16 at 10:04am EST. If you post before then, you will recieve a further two warning points and a second ten-day ban.

meesha1971

June 6th, 2005, 3:08 pm

Ron's insecurity is one reason why R/Hr wouldn't work. I don't see how Ron could cope if he was in a relationship with a girl who was always achieving higher than he was.

But Ron hasn’t shown any insecurity towards Hermione achieving higher than he does. He seems to be proud of her most of the time. He tells her she’s brilliant, etc… Most of Hermione’s high achievements are with school and Ron doesn’t show the same insecurity with schoolwork. I think some of his insecurities are going to be dealt with. There has already been a big change in him, particularly after Fred and George left school. I think the Weasley’s financial situation will improve since they only have Ron and Ginny to provide for now. Ron is becoming more mature and becoming more of his own person and not just another Weasley. I feel that will be a big part of him finally admitting how he feels about Hermione.

However, I don’t think this would extend to his friendship with Harry if Hermione and Harry were to become a couple. I don’t think he would be comfortable being around them because of his feelings for Hermione. I think that would just be too much for him to deal with.

If R/Hr happened, I don't see the trio remaining intact at all. Remember how Harry reacted when he learnt that they spent the summer together without him? Do you think he could cope with that for the rest of his life?

Harry was not upset because they spent the summer together having fun without him. He was upset because he was completely cut off from the wizarding world. He wanted NEWS. He had been reduced to hiding in the flowerbed under the window to listen to the muggle news in hopes of finding out what was going on with Voldemort. They were writing him letters but answering none of his questions and not volunteering any information about what was going on. They were together, in the thick of things, able to find out what was happening, and they weren’t telling him anything. He was furious about that and felt left out because of that NOT because they were having fun without him.

Ron and Hermione spend time without Harry quite frequently, IMO. Throughout the books there are many references to Harry coming back to the common room to find them playing chess or talking. These things don’t bother him. Harry has shown absolutely NO romantic interest in Hermione IMO. He seems to be aware that Ron and Hermione like each other and is not bothered by it at all. If Ron and Hermione become a couple they would still be there to support him.

That's why H/Hr, R/L and last but not least N/G work so well - none of the sextet is without a partner. That'll come in handy when they go to Hogsmeade. Oh yes, I can see the triple dates now.

What intrigues me is when JKR sunk Neville/Luna - this ship was one that was shipped by a majority of R/Hr's + H/G's so they too could have triple dates and it would fit so nice and snugly - but yet, she didn't sink N/G or R/L, which are both alongside pairings to H/Hr.

I’m not sure I’m understanding your point here. Are you saying they should choose their LI based on whether or not they can have triple dates? That doesn’t make any sense. Harry and Hermione don’t work because they are just friends. There are no romantic feelings between them, IMO. At this point, there is no indication that Harry has a romantic interest in anyone now that his “relationship” with Cho is over. There is all kinds of canon evidence to support that Ron and Hermione have feelings for each other. JKR sunk the Neville/Luna ship when she was asked about it. I don’t think she would directly say anything about Ron and Luna or Harry and Ginny because that would give away who will end up with Hermione.

We differ here then. I think that Cho was indeed jealous of Hermione - who wouldn't be jealous of Hermione, when she is so close to Harry? And the point that Harmonians make isn't Cho being jealous itself, it's how Harry responded to her jealousy. Harry completely defended her, and placed Hermione above Cho, who was meant to be his LI.

Who wouldn’t be jealous of Hermione being close to Harry? Someone who understands that they are only friends. And I have seen several posts that make a big deal of the fact that Cho was “jealous” of Hermione and Viktor was “jealous” of Harry. It just doesn’t play for me. Cho obviously had ulterior motives and wanted to talk about Cedric. She was annoyed when Harry told her that he had agreed to meet Hermione that day. She only became angry when she found out that Harry had talked to Ron and Hermione about Cedric. Viktor wasn’t that jealous because he was completely satisfied by Harry’s assurance that Hermione was just his friend. The other time that Cho shows “jealousy” she is trying to justify Marietta’s actions and relieve her own guilt. Harry’s reaction is not surprising at all. In the first instance he is just confused. Hermione is his friend and he doesn’t understand why Cho is upset that he agreed for both of them to meet her. In the second instance he is angry with Marietta for turning them in and angry with Cho for defending Marietta and attacking Hermione, his friend. There was no justification for what Marietta did and attacking Hermione was childish on Cho’s part. Doesn’t seem at all strange to me. Harry defended his friend and called Cho on her childish behavior. That doesn’t mean that he is secretly in love with Hermione. Also, at this point, their “relationship” is pretty much over. This occurs after their date.

Well, obviously she couldn't possibly know every little detail that happened on their date, but as I said on the previous thread, even Crabbe and Goyle could suss out how the date went - and Hermione is way above their intellect, so why should she have to ask?

Why would it be obvious? Harry didn’t tell anyone about it. He didn’t mention it when he showed up at The Three Broomsticks and she didn’t ask. There are many possible explanations as to why Cho didn’t show up with him. She could have gone to meet with other friends. We know why she didn’t come with him but why would Hermione just assume that the date went badly? She asked later because she had forgotten about the date. Hermione gets very wrapped up in her “projects”. She was focused on getting Harry’s story out and they succeeded. She is in a very good mood and very pleased at their success and she remembers that Harry had a date and asks him how it went. Again, I fail to see any significance in these events other than they are good friends.

If there is such a lack of development with her so called relationship with Ron a year after the Yule Ball, wouldn't one think that it's time to move on? Although I hate to say this, but Hermione could parallel Ginny here - Ginny gave up on Harry, Hermione gave up on Ron.

Well, I do see some development since the Yule Ball. It is just going very slowly, which would be frustrating. Ron has shown jealousy. He gave her perfume – I believe he did this to show that he does see her as a girl. She in turn gave him a signal by kissing him and he had a definite reaction to that kiss. They are bickering less and agreeing more. I think that Hermione does have feelings for Ron and believes that he has feelings for her but she is not sure. Hermione doesn’t like to act on anything unless she is completely sure. That’s why she spends so much time in the library. She generally won’t even tell Ron and Harry what she’s up to until she has all the facts in order. She also understands Ron very well and knows that he has insecurities he needs to deal with. I think the same is true for Ron. He likes Hermione but isn’t sure if she likes him as well. He is not sure if her relationship with Viktor is more than friendship. He is unsure of himself and possibly even wonders if he is “good enough” for her. This is just my opinion.

I don’t think you can compare Ginny’s crush on Harry to Ron and Hermione having feelings for each other. Ginny’s had a crush on the “famous Harry Potter”. She didn’t really know who he was. As she has gotten to know him she no longer has a crush on him. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t like him or they couldn’t date in the future. It only means that she no longer has a crush on him. I’m not saying that I think Harry and Ginny will get together. I’m just saying that Ginny’s crush was different from what is going on with Ron and Hermione. I don’t think either of them has a crush. I think they have stronger feelings than that. They know each other very well. Why should Hermione give up when Ron is sending out so many signals that he does like her?

Jibran

June 6th, 2005, 3:21 pm

I also agree to it. I believe that Ron and Hermione are meant to be. I am not too sure of Harry though. A recent news about Arthur A. Levine saying that HBP is not as dark at OotP, also contained a little spoiler of "Love is in the air". I believe that this is a sure pointer to Ron and Hermione pairing up, as nothing about their ship was touched at in OotP. Here is the article (http://www.pottersrealm.com/article-338--0-0.html)

Another ship which I would think is canon, ought to be Fleur and Bill Weasley and perhaps Draco and Pansy, but I doubt that!

cerussite

June 6th, 2005, 3:48 pm

He likes Hermione but isn’t sure if she likes him as well. He is not sure if her relationship with Viktor is more than friendship. He is unsure of himself and possibly even wonders if he is “good enough” for her. This is just my opinion.

I think they have stronger feelings than that. They know each other very well. Why should Hermione give up when Ron is sending out so many signals that he does like her?

If we can debate this much about what Hermione is feeling then I think we can have some sympathy for Ron. And we don't even have to be worried or insecure about whether or not Hermione will say no, it's not as if we are asking her for a date.

MPPMarauderGirl

June 6th, 2005, 3:51 pm

So, here we are again. A new Love Thread. A new start. Time to explain why I support what I support.

Hermione/Ron: This has always been what I've shipped. I'm accustom to it, because whenever I talk about it (with HS friends) it's always Hermione likes Ron. They see it, I see it. JKR's quotes are helpful (and just her being JKR is enough for me to know she's not leading me wrong). I started officially shipping in GOF. And after rereading, I could see little bits that made me think, "Aww" toward the ship. I do not think Hermione likes Harry. And I do not think that if Heron doesn't happen, that Harmony automatically will, because--

Harry/Ginny: Yes, Harry's ships are never "obvious" or never have really over-whelming Brawl Scenes were someone gets the point and the other is left in the dark. I've just read an awesome editorial about this ship and it's literally huge! Here's the link you can find it at: http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=hglovered . No, I did not write it, I only enjoyed it thoroughly (and muggleview actually brought it to my attention, so thanks mate :tu:!) It, to me, proves that Ginny is not just there--she is noticed by Harry, she can share things with Harry, Harry has described her in flattering terms, Harry has noticed things that he shouldn't have if she was just Ron's little sister. Check it out! It is seriously an awesome article.

But here are my main reasons for Chocolate:

What Harry Wants

In shipping preference, I want Harry to be happy. Do I think he can be happy with someone that nags him all the time and that pushes him away? No. Do I think he can be happy with someone that has interest that Harry could care less about? No. Do I think he can be happy with someone who he can be level with, understand, have fun with, be a part of something with, enjoy life with, joke with, listen to, be helpful to him? Yes. And to me, Ginny is this. Ginny knows how to reach Harry, she knows how he's thinking and she knows when he really, truly, needs her help. Ginny has a family Harry admires and wishes he could be a part of. Ginny has been brought up with the same laughter and humor that Harry loved in the twins, and he values in people. Ginny has gone through an ordeal and understands Harry's encounters with LV; Harry only delt with him for a day each year--Ginny had to deal with him a whole year, and she's still affected by it. These factors, and so much more, bring out that Ginny could be the best for Harry, and that she will get her chance.

Romantic Build-up

There is no denying that Ginny has been linked to romance throughout the series. In book 2 she has a shy-school-girl feeling for Harry, stands up for him stating he didn't want the attention [this shows it wasn't a fangirl, and that she knew Harry hated the fame] and is called his girlfriend, with no negative reaction from Harry. In book 3, she is still "very taken" with him and shows that through her feelings, she can still laugh and show her personality [admiring the Twins]. In book 4/5: She's going to the ball with Neville--would rather go with Harry--meets Michael, things do not work good at the ball with Neville (at least, that's what Harry's perspective was), starts dating Michael at the end of her third year, gives up on Harry, breaks up with Michael, who gets with Cho, then makes a side comment (vaguely) about Dean, when Ron suggests Harry/Ginny. You may want to bring up Hermione/Harry and the fiasco in book 4, but Harry's response was NO. JKR's response: They are platonic! That, to me, is enough. Ginny, however, has been linked with romance, unnecessarily, and it has yet to be resolved.

Again, I really want to let you all know how great this article is: http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=hglovered

Check it out! No matter what you ship (though especially if you're a Chocolateer) read this! Understand that Harry notices Ginny, and sees her. That he has felt hopeful because of her, that he faced death for her, and that he knows how he should treat her. All of this and more is covered in that article, and before you question me, read it! (I will admit that it is a monstrous article, but it's worth the hour you put into reading it.) Give Chocolate a shot. ;)

MadameSparks

June 6th, 2005, 4:08 pm

Originally Posted by erynae
Ron's insecurity is one reason why R/Hr wouldn't work. I don't see how Ron could cope if he was in a relationship with a girl who was always achieving higher than he was.

While Hermione surpasses Ron in areas of classwork, Ron surpasses Hermione in many other areas. Ron, once his confidence was ready, is a skilled Quidditch player. Hermione hardly ever flies. Hermione has YET to beat Ron at wizards chess. Ron has a closer knit family than Hermione. Ron has a better sense of humor (or is more at ease making jokes and finding more humor in other situations). Hermione may have Ron in book smarts but there are other areas where Ron surpasses her or they are equal. People have their strengths and weaknesses and having matching strengths is not a prerequisite for a relationship.

This overused claim that Ron insecurities will keep Heron from happening is without grounding in the text. Hermione exhibits as much insecurity as Ron does, just in other areas and in different ways. I mean her BIGGEST fear is failure...or rather lack of perfection (boggart).

Every character in this book has insecurities. Harry fears his friends judging him (note his quick temper to assume Hermione is talking about him behind his back with Lavendar , or to jump at Seamus for his mother's opinion, without finding if it's Seamus's opinion as well). Neville is insecure about performing well. Draco is insecure about meeting his fathers approval. Humans at that age are by nature insecure. They are testing out the waters and trying to find what they will latch on to...and in the meantime they are a bit adrift.

I also find it unfouded to claim Ron would feel insecure over Hermione's superior GRADES (book smarts, not street smarts as Hermione herself points out) when Ron doesn't care about grades. Sure he cares to the extent of passing or keeping his grades up enough to not get in trouble with his parents, but to say that he longs for good grades or is jealous of Hermy's is not Ron's character.

Originally Posted by erynae
That's why H/Hr, R/L and last but not least N/G work so well - none of the sextet is without a partner. That'll come in handy when they go to Hogsmeade. Oh yes, I can see the triple dates now.

What's wrong with Hr/R, H/G, N/other, Luna/other? And why MUST everyone be coupled? I have a hard time thinking they're going to worry much about "triple dates" during the next two years. And as "the wizarding world is really at war" in books 6 and 7, who's to say that Hogsmeades visits will still be allowed? Having a partner is not the end all be all of these children's lives and not all the characters need a complimentary character. Remember this is a book and pairings will be made as they benefit the story, not b/c they'd be cute or it'd be nice for everyone to be paired. Why does Luna need a partner? Why does Neville need a partner? I'd love to see Neville develop his strength from inside and not have a partner until the epilogue.....to become a whole person and not rely on a girl to make him "complete"

Oh and also....I highly doubt that Ron would pair up with someone whom he thinks says "the dumbest things I ever heard in my life."

physis

June 6th, 2005, 4:19 pm

Oh and also....I highly doubt that Ron would pair up with someone whom he thinks says "the dumbest things I ever heard in my life."

as opposed to what hermione thinks about a lot of stuff that comes from ron's mouth?

MPPMarauderGirl

June 6th, 2005, 4:28 pm

as opposed to what hermione thinks about a lot of stuff that comes from ron's mouth?

Could you give examples of what you mean? If we're going for what people think of other people's statemens, do you want us to bring up how many times Harry gets mad about her nagging, or lies or avoids confrontation? I may be young, but I certainly don't see how that could lead to a happy and healthy relationship, when Hermione can't help Harry the way others can. :td:

Gurkha_Girl

June 6th, 2005, 4:30 pm

MadameSparks

June 6th, 2005, 4:33 pm

as opposed to what hermione thinks about a lot of stuff that comes from ron's mouth?

When you have canon to support this, please give it. However as we don't KNOW what hermione thinks as we don't read her thoughts this is highly unlikely. I don't have the exact page as my books at home, perhaps someone could help me out with the OotP page number, but it's in the chapter Percy and Padfoot (right after Detention with Umbridge) I believe where Ron says that something Sirius (i believe sirius says it) says is the dumest thing he's ever heard, and that's including everything Luna says. SO while someone can make a comment which tops the stupid things luna says (in ron's opinion) he lumps ALL of the things she says together and marks them as severely dumb.

Unfortunatly there doesn't seem to be an evidence that Hermione categorizes Ron and everything he says as severly dumb. But if you can find canon for it, that'd be interesting. I don't even think when they're arguing she says anything like that. And most CERTAINLY doesn't speak about Ron behind his back saying to others that everything he says is stupid. But if you can find it, more power to you.

rowansjet

June 6th, 2005, 4:35 pm

Question. If a character dies while in a relationship with another character (even though they are only 16/17/18), do you consider that ending up with some one, even if they move on to some one else in the long run.

I.E Hermione goes out with Ron... Ron dies :upset: while still in a relationship with Hermione, in the epilogue we find out Hermione married Harry had 50 kids and lived happily ever after.

Do you consider that she ended up with both or just Harry, or do you say Ron ended up with Hermione but Hermione ended up with Harry. Or maybe you claim it was always meant to be Ron etc.I would say she ended up with both of them.

So the question is: Will you change ships if your desired preference does not come to fruition after HBP?Well, I'm still fairly sure that Ron/Hermione won't get together until book seven, but if there was no development, and they got feelings for other people, and showed evidence that they didn't have feelings for each other anymore, then I would jump ship.

With Harry/Luna, because of the comments about Harry having a little romance in this book, I'm gonna say that the person he fancies in this book will be the one he goes out with. If he starts dating Ginny and they still have feelings for each other at the end of the book, I'll go over to chocolate.

That's why H/Hr, R/L and last but not least N/G work so well - none of the sextet is without a partner. That'll come in handy when they go to Hogsmeade. Oh yes, I can see the triple dates now.Well the same goes for R/Hr, H/L and N/G. :eyebrows:

Also Deevo, those Potter Puppet Pal Pairs are adorable. :p

cerussite

June 6th, 2005, 4:39 pm

MadameSparks

June 6th, 2005, 4:45 pm

I mean, if Ron ends up with Hermione, wouldnt he be a blood traitor because she's muggle-born? Also with Ginny and Harry obviously, because he's a half-blood.

As "blood traitor" is the opinion of a very bad witch and a house elf gone bad...Sirius's mother being one who supported (although not activly, it is said "she thought V had the right idea") Voldemort....I don't think we're supposed to think of blood traitors as being a bad thing. To say this is to share sentiments with racists who don't believe in interracial relationships. The pure blood/half blood in this book is used as another way to show racial division and harmony. During slavery and for decades following interracial relationships were looked down on in the US....So much so that if your great grandfather was black, you were labeled an "octoroon" (1/8th black) and were not given full legal rights. If you have tracable muggle blood in your heritage you are considered "not pure."

People who hold this mindset are not to be admired. And people who think properly and were raised without bigotry and hate being apart of their lives (the weasley's as opposed to the Malfoys) will not make matches trying to make themselves more pureblood. They'll marry where their heart is.

erynae

June 6th, 2005, 4:56 pm

Well the same goes for R/Hr, H/L and N/G. :eyebrows:

It's great to think of it, isn't it? Sorry, I know this doesn't add to the debate, it's just my love for fluffiness. Back when I ship the above things ^^, that's what attracted me to it. It's been quite a while since I shipped Moonlight. Then I went over to Chocolate. And then I went over to Harmony and Red Moon. And here I am.

DagnytheDaft

June 6th, 2005, 4:56 pm

On the previous page, someone queried whether folks would jump ship based on where HBP goes. My answer is yes, but it has to be done well and I think it has to be done well based on what JKR has written so far. I ship Chocolate and Heron. For Heron, in particular, JKR has IMO pretty clearly written what she intends us to interpret as "Ron has feelings for Hermione." You can argue Hermione and Harry's feelings as much as you like (I have my own opinion, but it doesn't matter for this post), but Ron either has feelings for Hermione (and I believe he does) or JKR wants us to think he does (...or both, of course). He's been protective of her since CoS (he spewed slugs for her, afterall), he's shown jealousy of Viktor in GoF and OotP, and he gives her perfume for Christmas in OotP. He also reacted in a classic infatuated manner after she gave him the pre-Quidditch kiss in OotP (I associate his reaction with the Brady Bunch as I think one of those kids reacted that way to a cheek-peck in one episode--but it's been about 25 years since I watch BB so, I could be wrong). So in a nut shell, I'm fairly confident that JKR has written Ron to have feeling for Hermione or else has intentionally planted a giant red herring. I don't believe that the way she has written Ron can be explained away as just friendly/brotherly interest in particular because the perfume, pre-Quidditch kiss response, and jealousy don't seem to serve any other plot purpose.

So, if it is a red herring, then she'll reveal the red herring with some explanation as to why she led us to believe Ron likes Hermione and what the misleading points really mean (by the end of GoF we were quite clear on what all the red herrings in that book meant, right down to Ludo's trouble with the goblins).

But if it isn't a red herring then she needs to resolve Ron's feelings for Hermione one way or another. She has various options, including, but not limited to 1) Casting off anchor on the Good Ship Heron 2) Killing off Ron 3) Turning Ron evil so Hermione can not love him 4) Causing a schism amongst the trio if H/Hr happens 5) Settling Ron's feelings in some other way such as a new LI for him. Items 2, 3, & 5 could clear the way for H/Hr, but don't have to.

I won't know for a fact how JKR'll resolve this without more canon, but I am comfortable with my ships. But more importantly than that, I am confident that JKR'll resolve Ron's feelings in some way and in so doing that she'll bring me along with her story when the time comes. If Ron loses interest in Hermione, then I'll see it happen and how it happens and be comfortable with it and the resulting outcomes.

redhanded

June 6th, 2005, 4:56 pm

ok, i'm new on this thread so if I sound stupid or incompetent please forgive me! I've posted on some other threads before but only just plucked up the courage to post on this one, because, quite frankly, its a bit scary!

I never realised 'shipping' was such a big thing or that there were so many 'ships'. Just from the simple perspective of having read the books (many times) I always assumed that R/Hr would stop pulling pigtails and get together eventually, and I've always liked the idea of Harry and Ginny ending up together, just because she seems to suit him, and well... I like it! It would round everything off very neatly, although having read the incredibly well argued and text supported arguments on this thread I will readily admit that 'I like it' is not a very good basis for an argument! As for Harry/Hermione, I just have never seen it even having spent the last couple of weeks reading the LT and the arguments in it, I've always seen Harry/Hermione canon as evidence of an incredibly strong bond of 'friendship and trust' to quote Dumbledore and nothing more.

However, I do have a theory why Heron (see, i'm even using the lingo!) would work better than Harmony, and that is this:

Firstly, the incredibly strong friendship of the trio is fundamental to the plot, we've seen before that Harry functions much worse without the support of his friends. I can't see JKR jeopardising this, given that romance, in whatever form it takes, is a sub-plot to the main individual sub-plots of books 6 and 7, which are then another sub-plot to the main plot which is Harry's ongoing conflict with Voldemort. I just can't see her breaking up the trio in anyway that would jeopardise Harry's support. Even if you only consider that the trio's wands are made up of the 3 Ollivander wand cores, dragon-heartstring, unicorn hair and pheonix feather, the trio match and complement each other, and they work best when they use each other's skills, their individual weaknesses are compensated for by the other's strengths.

Currently, it seems to me that Ron likes Hermione even if its onily in an adolescent, immature way. Hermione there issome question over - personally, I think she likes Ron, and is waiting for him to grow up and realise it, but I fully accept that there is a huge amount of dispute on this and some think she likes Harry. So Hermione's feelings are unclear. I've read nothing that indicates to me that Harry likes Hermione though, the only thing i've ever read that convinced me that Harry liked *anyone* was his perspective on Cho.

So the current situation, to me, is as follows:

Ron fancies Hermione
Hermione (?)
Harry likes Hermninone but doesn't fancy her (and doesn't *obviously* fancy anyone else the way he fancied Cho)

So, with regard the trio - here are the two options (there are actually three but i don't think I dare suggest that Hermione will end up single!)

1) H/Hr
2) R/Hr

So what would happen to the trio's friendship?

1) I can see this being a real problem, I think its clear to the reader that Ron likes Hermione, imagine his reaction if the famous Harry Potter, who has everything (aside from a prefect's badge) suddenly gets the girl he likes too. Given Ron's emotional immaturity (don't scream at me, I love Ron for his honesty and loyalty but to me he is emotionally immature) I can see this driving a real wedge into the trio, not just between Ron and Hermione but between Ron and Harry too. This could be absolutely disastrous, both for Ron, who would be miserable, isolated and lonely, but potentially disastrous for the main plot, we saw what Harry was like in GoF without Ron's friendship, and that was before Voldemort returned, now I don't think he'd be able to deal with it, not with everything else that has happened to him

2) R/Hr

Harry doesn't like Hermione, Ron likes Hermione, hermione we're unsure of. If hermione turns out to like Ron, and they get together, what would happen to the trio? Nothing, in my opinion. Yes it'd be a bit awkward for Harry at first, but he'd get over it, and more importantly it wouldn't affect the fact that both of his friends are there for him when he needs them and as Ron and Hermione act like a bickering couple anyway, I don't think it would even make group dynamics that different. Would Harry be isolated? I don't think so, I don't think that Hermione and Ron would abandon Harry for each other, (note, I don't think Harry and Hermione would abandon Ron for each other either, but I think that Ron would be less able to cope with it himself, than Harry is) plus the fact that Harry's got a bit more to be thinking about right now.

Its for this reason, and the 'sense' I get from the books (which I think, fundamnetally is all the debate is really about when it boils down to it) that I think and hope that it will be Heron that sails in book 6 and 7 and not Harmony. Having said that, so long as the trio remain happy (single or paired off!) I'll be happy. Hope that wasn't too stupid!

P.S. Roll on July 16th!

meesha1971

June 6th, 2005, 5:10 pm

redhanded

June 6th, 2005, 5:20 pm

thanks :blush:

I didn't mean it as in Harry would have a problem with Ron/Hr, merely that it would take a little adjustment, I mean, its all very well thinking of your two best friends as being together already, but its different from them *acutally* being together and walking in on them kissing, for example ;)

Kinem

June 6th, 2005, 7:19 pm

Do you think Ron and Hermione would have problems if Hermione continued to give Harry the attention she does? He does have a jealous streak.

Just a thought

shmink

June 6th, 2005, 7:33 pm

Do you think Ron and Hermione would have problems if Hermione continued to give Harry the attention she does? He does have a jealous streak.

Just a thought

Since I don't see Hermione's attention toward Harry as anything over and above her typical care and concern for him, as one of her best friends who is constantly in danger - no, I don't think Ron would be jealous. He has not shown any signs of jealousy thus far.

ladykrystyna

June 6th, 2005, 7:41 pm

MadameSparks

June 6th, 2005, 8:21 pm

Originally Posted by Kinem
Do you think Ron and Hermione would have problems if Hermione continued to give Harry the attention she does? He does have a jealous streak.

Just a thought

As Ron is jealous over any guy that Hermione seems to show TOO MUCH attention to, or to be a person he feels is less than worthy of her attention, he jumps right in with his jealousy.....I'd say...if he's not jealous by now, he's not gonna be.

Ron trusts Harry...and he trusts Hermione. And while there may be some fun little bit of drama...Hermy trips and Harry catches her as Ron walks through the door and suspects the worst....They'll clear it up and move on....stronger as a pair b/c Ron knows Hermy doesn't want Harry and vice versa.

redhanded

June 6th, 2005, 8:23 pm

I have no idea how to just do small quotes to what you said, so I quoted the whole thing in order to give you an answer.

It's a very good question, by the way, and I've thought about this myself.

I'm a 33 year old wife and mother of 2, so I can't believe I fell into this "shipping" thing, but I did. Since I only just read the entire series this last January, I was reading it without shipping glasses on . . . except that I had seen all three movies and saw what IMO were hints at Ron and Hermione getting together, and that worked for me. I love the whole bantering thing (Han and Leia :eyebrows: )

I had no idea about Harry, until I came on mugglenet and CoS and started reading. Someone brought up the idea of Harry and Ginny and it clicked for me and works for me. Though I can't say that there is any real canon for Chocolate, except for analysis of quotes. However, IMO there is no canon for Harry/Hermione and I think JKR's interview with Katie Couric solidified that for me. The face she made said it all, especially because it was so off the cuff and not rehearsed. She didn't take time to formulate an answer, she just said it.

So anyway, what will I do if I'm wrong . . .

Nothing. I'll be disappointed; but JKR is such a wonderful writer that if she were to pair Harry and Hermione, she would make me believe it; just as she would pairing Ron with . . .whoever. And that's enough for me. It's her world, homes, I'm just living in it! :eyebrows:

:agree: yup! that pretty much sums it up for me aswell, and I agree, whatever 'ship' JKR sails, she'll make it so convincing we'll forget if we didn't think it was going to happen!

you also raised another point I was interested in - does anyone know how to quote small sections of a post rather than the entire thing?

MadameSparks

June 6th, 2005, 8:43 pm

you also raised another point I was interested in - does anyone know how to quote small sections of a post rather than the entire thing?

I just copy the bits I want to address and copy and paste it down into the quick reply box. Then you highlight it and push the little icon 4th in that looks like a cartoon conversation bubble. You see the B the I the U and then the next thing is what you want to push.

SSJ_Jup81

June 6th, 2005, 8:47 pm

Do you think Ron and Hermione would have problems if Hermione continued to give Harry the attention she does? He does have a jealous streak.I meant to answer this earlier, but felt to give my .02 on it.

Anyway, as it's been pointed out, Ron would be used of the attention Hermione gives to Harry anyway. It's in her character to worry over everyone, Harry especially, so if he hasn't had a problem with it up to this point to even show jealousy towards it, then I doubt he would later.

One other thing, why do people get the impression that Ron would continue to have a jealous streak? Sure he shows jealousy towards Viktor (understandable) and openly showed jealousy towards Harry one time. I don't get where this impression that Ron is jealous of practically everything came from.I just copy the bits I want to address and copy and paste it down into the quick reply box. Then you highlight it and push the little icon 4th in that looks like a cartoon conversation bubble. You see the B the I the U and then the next thing is what you want to push.Wow, I never knew that. And just to think, all this time, I've been doing that manually. ><

redhanded

June 6th, 2005, 9:08 pm

I just copy the bits I want to address and copy and paste it down into the quick reply box. Then you highlight it and push the little icon 4th in that looks like a cartoon conversation bubble. You see the B the I the U and then the next thing is what you want to push.

aaaah, very handy, thank you! :)

One other thing, why do people get the impression that Ron would continue to have a jealous streak? Sure he shows jealousy towards Viktor (understandable) and openly showed jealousy towards Harry one time. I don't get where this impression that Ron is jealous of practically everything came from.

tee hee I know how to do it now!

I guess its just that, an impression, perhaps its because Ron's jealously had such a big *impact* in GoF with the split with Harry and the argument with Hermione that its left that lingering sense. But you're right, those are the only two times I can think of that he's been jealous. On the other hand, Ron is quite an emotional person, he tends to get fired up pretty easily, whether its jealousy, or his overblown protectiveness of Ginny - maybe that's it, good point though.

MadameSparks

June 6th, 2005, 9:15 pm

Wow, I never knew that. And just to think, all this time, I've been doing that manually. ><

You mean you've been typing out quote? i hope not....that'd stink...but i think that's what you meant....yikes!

One other thing, why do people get the impression that Ron would continue to have a jealous streak? Sure he shows jealousy towards Viktor (understandable) and openly showed jealousy towards Harry one time. I don't get where this impression that Ron is jealous of practically everything came from.

I also think that he behaved jealously over Lockhart....he acted almost identically over him as he did over Krum. But where I think Ron being jealous over Hermy all the time...perhaps that's not how I should say it. I think it's a matter of he's been jealous both times she should more than a friendship level interest, once a silly crush and second a dating relationship (level of seriousness still in question). And as soon as anything showed up in Hermione as far as her liking another guy, Ron picked up on it and starts hating the guy. I think that if Hermy was behaving in a manner that was more than friends with Harry, Ron would pick up on it right away.

I also think to an extent Ron is jealous over Hermione her time and attention ("Where's Hermione?" at the party and then sulkily "Well she was pleased when I first told her" ...Ignoring Padma looking for HErmione at the Ball...and countless other Ron shows he wants her around moments)

Perhaps protective (thank you redhanded) is the best word. Protection and jealousy are often confused. I think Ron displays both about Hermione.

SSJ_Jup81

June 6th, 2005, 9:38 pm

You mean you've been typing out quote? i hope not....that'd stink...but i think that's what you meant....yikes!Oh no, I don't type out the quotes. I'd copy and paste the text, and manually put in the html stuff.
I also think that he behaved jealously over Lockhart....he acted almost identically over him as he did over Krum. But where I think Ron being jealous over Hermy all the time...perhaps that's not how I should say it. I think it's a matter of he's been jealous both times she should more than a friendship level interest, once a silly crush and second a dating relationship (level of seriousness still in question). And as soon as anything showed up in Hermione as far as her liking another guy, Ron picked up on it and starts hating the guy. I think that if Hermy was behaving in a manner that was more than friends with Harry, Ron would pick up on it right away.I agree whole-heartedly. I know Ron isn't that observant at times, but I'm sure he'd pick up if Hermione seemed to show some romantic interest towards Harry, especially since he knows both Harry and Hermione so well.
I also think to an extent Ron is jealous over Hermione her time and attention ("Where's Hermione?" at the party and then sulkily "Well she was pleased when I first told her" ...Ignoring Padma looking for HErmione at the Ball...and countless other Ron shows he wants her around moments)I wouldn't say jealous, but more so "put out" or a bit "disappointed". As for the Padma thing, just anxious.Perhaps protective (thank you redhanded) is the best word. Protection and jealousy are often confused. I think Ron displays both about Hermione.I agree with this, but of course, this can be used against Heron as well. I don't recall which version of this thread had this mentioned, but it was to show that Ron's "being protective" over Hermione can be mirrored with how he was when finding out Ginny was dating Michael. Of course I disagree with this sinc, to me, he reacts very differently to both.

I guess its just that, an impression, perhaps its because Ron's jealously had such a big *impact* in GoF with the split with Harry and the argument with Hermione that its left that lingering sense. But you're right, those are the only two times I can think of that he's been jealous.This is what I dislike, mostly, when some shippers of other ships, mention why Ron isn't good for Hermione, etc. They focus on his bad points instead of his good or complementary ones.

He showed jealousy one time, in reference to Harry, and some bash Ron's character because of it (as a point against Heron) and seem to forget that Harry was just as guilty of the argument as Ron was. Harry indirectly called Ron stupid, and that's probably what annoyed Ron (at the moment) when he left him, quite peeved. Harry wanted to apologize to Ron the next morning, but Ron was gone; when Ron seemed like he was ready to apologize, Harry threw that badge at him.

I really wish people would stop focusing on the characters' bad points, and stick to the good points. If Ron constantly showed jealousy, then I'd say this was a problem, but he really hasn't.

Harry has a bad temper, for the most part, but not too many people bring that up.

Hermione have quite a few bad traits, but people rarely bring those up either. Instead, she's on a pedastal. ><On the other hand, Ron is quite an emotional person, he tends to get fired up pretty easily, whether its jealousy, or his overblown protectiveness of Ginny - maybe that's it, good point though.Yeah, he is pretty emotional. Wears his heart on his sleeve too. It's pretty easy to figure him out.

dr_hermione

June 6th, 2005, 9:49 pm

redhanded

June 6th, 2005, 9:52 pm

This is what I dislike, mostly, when some shippers of other ships, mention why Ron isn't good for Hermione, etc. They focus on his bad points instead of his good or complementary ones.

I didn't mean that to seem like I was bashing Ron! - I think R/Hr will end up together. Ron's very emotional, that can be a good or a bad thing, gives him a tendency to be jealous or possessive, but also means he's incredibly honest, loyal and caring. Sorry if it came across wrong. None of the trio is perfect, they're very human and real - which is why we like them so much! They each have differen imperfections, stengths and weaknesses, but if they work together, the weaknesses cancel each other out.

Hermione_2005

June 6th, 2005, 9:53 pm

percy is deffinitly unpredictable though. I mean did any of us expect him to desert his family for Fudge?! He is just someone wh is hard to make out.

redhanded

June 6th, 2005, 9:58 pm

I am just so happy that romance "might" be in the air in HBP. I know I may be older and more cynical than many of the "shippers" but I just can't figure out why you all think that JKR will finish off the books with everyone coupled off. The wizarding world doesn't seem very romance oriented--did Serius, Remus, DD, Snape, Lockhart or many of the other major adult characters even date? And HHrRNand G will still be in their teens when the books are done! Not old enough for a serious and permanent relationship!

The only person I am sure will end up "shipped" is Percy. I know he will find someone to ship with to advance his career.

What makes you think Percy will be 'shipped' and who with? Penelope Clearwater?
I take your point, and in reality you'd probably be right, I'm a bit cynical about in in the real world too, despite only just not being a teenager myself! But in JKR's world (which we have to remember we're operating in!) Lily and James got together in 7th year so it can happen, there's no guarantee of any romance at all, but where's the debate in that?! :) I enjoy the speculation but do think its important to keep in mind that romance ( if it happens) is a sub plot and not to get too obsessive over it!

SSJ_Jup81

June 6th, 2005, 10:01 pm

I didn't mean that to seem like I was bashing Ron!I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come across that way. I was agreeing with you and stuff, and then I just sorta went off topic talking about shippers who do bash Ron. I wasn't accusing you of it. ^^
- I think R/Hr will end up together. Ron's very emotional, that can be a good or a bad thing, gives him a tendency to be jealous or possessive, but also means he's incredibly honest, loyal and caring. Sorry if it came across wrong. None of the trio is perfect, they're very human and real - which is why we like them so much! They each have differen imperfections, stengths and weaknesses, but if they work together, the weaknesses cancel each other out.Very well-said. :tu::cool:

Morganic

June 7th, 2005, 12:59 am

People are saying well if Harry and Hermione get together they would abandon Ron or if Hermione and Ron got together than they would abandon Harry and so on. I don't think this is true.

If it is H/Hr: Ron has other friends. They wouldn't abandon him he would just be likely to drift off you know? He would still be a part of the trio but when Hermione and Harry are having... um... "alone time" you could say he could just hang out with Dean or Neville or something... but I highly doubt he would be abandoned.

If it is R/Hr: Harry will feel left out but his best friends definately wouldn't abandon him. Besides it gives him more time to explore other people you could say.

Another thing I just kind of want to say.

People are saying that Harry is going to "realize" that he likes Hermione or Ginny or Luna.

He would have to realize it for Hermione but for Ginny and Luna he doesn't.

Ginny has recently "broken out of her shell" you could say. This gives time for Harry to get to know the real Ginny Weasley.

As for Luna she is a new character so we don't know much about her but Harry could get to know her and like her.

This is all IMO though.

MRSTJ1

June 7th, 2005, 1:39 am

In response to two questions: Could I change ships if the one I liked wasn't working out? Sure because I like so many of them. I like Moonlight. It amuses the heck out of me, but I have no problem with Harry/Hermione, Harry/Susan, Harry/Parvati, Harry being a lone hero, or Harry being forced to die to defeat Voldemort, and windidng up back with his parents and Sirius.
I only have a problem with H/G and because I say why I do, I get called a Weasley basher, and a character basher. How can anyone say they don't like a character wihout saying why? That baffles me, especially when I have admitted I do think H/G is possible. It just doesn't make sense to me at this point, and we've seen them interact for five books already.

The thing on mugglenet is interresting, but it does not seem to me it's talking about Harry alone. It seems to be talking about a lot of ships, which is normal for teenagers. There are some of them who change partners more than square dancers. JKR never promised us wedding plans or explicit sex anyway. She said a little romaccne and acknowledged a few kisses. I wish it had been her making the statement instead of the editor, because I'm wondering if it's his own opinion of what he read, or hers. God knws if a dozen people read one of these books they'll see things twelve different ways.
Poor man...after that business with the books getting stolen, I wouldn't be surprsied if someone tried to kidnap him to get him to tell them the story.

The fact is, though, even if a ship does not seem to be working out, any ship, no matter who likes it, they will probably keep insisting their ship will sail in book seven, unless the shipped character dies, which leads me to the next question: If a character is in love with another charcter who dies, of course they can find love again. I don't believe in soul mates. I had a relative who was married for many years and was crushed when his wife died. He married again, though, and was very, very happy until the second wife also died. I was happy for him, because I knew his first wife would want him to be happy. If you want the peson you love to be miserable and alone the rest of your life mourning you when you die, then you cna't really love them that much, especially if they are only in their teens.

annie87301

June 7th, 2005, 2:08 am

Do you think Ron and Hermione would have problems if Hermione continued to give Harry the attention she does? He does have a jealous streak.

Just a thought

I don't think Ron is jealous of Harry at all, when it comes to Hermy. When Harry finally joins them at 12GP, Hermy, in a cloud of bushy hair, nearly knocks Harry down when she hugs him. What is Ron doing during this supposedly 'shippy' hug? He's calmly shutting the door (probably to keep the cold out) and grinning. He says, while grinning, "Let him breathe!" (or some such). This to me does not seem in the least bit jealous to me.

MPPMarauderGirl

June 7th, 2005, 2:22 am

If it is H/Hr: Ron has other friends. They wouldn't abandon him he would just be likely to drift off you know? He would still be a part of the trio but when Hermione and Harry are having... um... "alone time" you could say he could just hang out with Dean or Neville or something... but I highly doubt he would be abandoned.

He would be abandoned because he actually likes Hermione. He's liked her longer than Harry's nonexistance feelings for her. If Ron were to get his heartbroken by Hermione because of Harry, he is abandoned because he is hurt. Harry has no feelings for Hermione, and therefore would be fine with their romance. Romance is a sub-plot. The whole book would not consist of Hermione and Ron snogging near the fireplace. They would still be Ron and Hermione, just having there special moments (which they have anyway! Prefects duty, Harry manages on his own--and when Harry had Quidditch and Ron did, Hermione and Ron spent quality time together)!

If it is R/Hr: Harry will feel left out but his best friends definately wouldn't abandon him. Besides it gives him more time to explore other people you could say.

He already is exploring people. That, IMO, is why Harry reaching toward Luna and Ginny the way he used to go to Hermione and Ron. Harry is already secluding himself. And it's not as though they would run off together.

Ginny has recently "broken out of her shell" you could say. This gives time for Harry to get to know the real Ginny Weasley.

Are you denying this or supporting it?

SoObvious

June 7th, 2005, 3:07 am

hi. Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but something really made me think the other day when I was re-reading Ootp. When Harry and Sirius are looking at the black's family tree in Grimmauld place, Sirius tells Harry that theres hardly any pure-blood families left..etc. At the end of his sentence, he mentions that 'if ever a family was a bunch of blood traitors, its the Weasleys.' I didnt think anything of it at first, but then i was thinking...perhaps this is foreshadowing Ron and Ginny's relationships. I mean, if Ron ends up with Hermione, wouldnt he be a blood traitor because she's muggle-born? Also with Ginny and Harry obviously, because he's a half-blood.

Or perhaps, maybe, it might mean that Ron and Ginny will keep up the pure-blood families by Ron getting with Luna, and ginny with neville. (Neville and Luna are both pure-bloods right?)

i dont know if this is significant, I'm just trying to think of new evidence for some ships because it's the same all the time. Sorry again if this has been mentioned before.

By the way, im a Harry Hermione shipper...and i'm hoping this means that ron and ginny will not be blood traitors, which gives me some hope for H/Hr, though the sentence still gets to me. Lol.

Anyway, I hope you've understood my post, im not usually very good at this.

Lyndsey.

Well Ginny and Ron don't care about being "blood traitors". They've been raised not to discriminate against others because of their parentage. Also, they are already considered "blood traitors" for just being friends with Hermione and Harry. But it's a nice thought, we always need new ideas to debate while we're waiting for July.

What's wrong with Hr/R, H/G, N/other, Luna/other? And why MUST everyone be coupled? I have a hard time thinking they're going to worry much about "triple dates" during the next two years. And as "the wizarding world is really at war" in books 6 and 7, who's to say that Hogsmeades visits will still be allowed? Having a partner is not the end all be all of these children's lives and not all the characters need a complimentary character. Remember this is a book and pairings will be made as they benefit the story, not b/c they'd be cute or it'd be nice for everyone to be paired. Why does Luna need a partner? Why does Neville need a partner? I'd love to see Neville develop his strength from inside and not have a partner until the epilogue.....to become a whole person and not rely on a girl to make him "complete"
MadameSparks was responding to a post made by Erynae. And i'd like to agree with MadameSparks and add that Neville and Luna don't usually go to Hogesmeade with Harry, Ron or Hermione. The only time I can think of is when Luna was with Hermione and Harry for the Rita Skeeter interview.

Morganic

June 7th, 2005, 3:07 am

He would be abandoned because he actually likes Hermione. He's liked her longer than Harry's nonexistance feelings for her. If Ron were to get his heartbroken by Hermione because of Harry, he is abandoned because he is hurt. Harry has no feelings for Hermione, and therefore would be fine with their romance. Romance is a sub-plot. The whole book would not consist of Hermione and Ron snogging near the fireplace. They would still be Ron and Hermione, just having there special moments (which they have anyway! Prefects duty, Harry manages on his own--and when Harry had Quidditch and Ron did, Hermione and Ron spent quality time together)!

He already is exploring people. That, IMO, is why Harry reaching toward Luna and Ginny the way he used to go to Hermione and Ron. Harry is already secluding himself. And it's not as though they would run off together.

Are you denying this or supporting it?To your last one I am supporting this. And for the first one I only said it that way so Harmony people wouldn't attack me :p But I agree with you. Harry is already drifting off.

Lila V Brious

June 7th, 2005, 3:10 am

Do you guys think that Harry can really fall for a girl like Luna? I can understand that they can be good friends, but I personally can't see Luna liking Harry or the other way around. Plus Luna likes Ron doesn't she? She'd laugh hard at his jokes and would sing "Weasley is Our King" under her breath...

Laufa

June 7th, 2005, 3:17 am

Yay, new thread!

Towards the end of the last thread, I changed ships. Yes, that's right - I changed from being a Heron, Chocolate and Moonchild to being a Harmonian, Red Moon and SIGNS. And no, I don't regret it or anything like that. I enjoy being the ship that I am now. :p

I think it's good when people change their minds. It shows their debating to listen to the arguments of others and consider them, not just stubbornly 'have their side'.

Ron's insecurity is one reason why R/Hr wouldn't work. I don't see how Ron could cope if he was in a relationship with a girl who was always achieving higher than he was.

Has Ron ever shown that he is jealous when Hermione achieves better grades them him?
And you ship Red Moon, you do know that Luna is a Ravenclaw?

If R/Hr happened, I don't see the trio remaining intact at all. Remember how Harry reacted when he learnt that they spent the summer together without him? Do you think he could cope with that for the rest of his life?

Harry was angry because he thought Ron and Hermione were receiving information, and didn't pass it on to him. He was angry because his two best friends were allowed to be together and he wasn't even able to owl them and tell his heart.

Also, throughout his 5th year, Harry saw Ron and Hermione spend alot of time alone together - and he broadened his circle of friends he could trust and confide in.

That's why H/Hr, R/L and last but not least N/G work so well - none of the sextet is without a partner. That'll come in handy when they go to Hogsmeade. Oh yes, I can see the triple dates now.

If this was Hogsmead Creek or Desperate Wizards, sure.
But JKR has alot to resolve in a small amount of time. H/L, R/Hr, N/G also clears the sextet up, but personally I don't see Neville's and Luna's roles in the books as romantic roles. At all. But that's just me, I love the idea of H/L though :)

What intrigues me is when JKR sunk Neville/Luna - this ship was one that was shipped by a majority of R/Hr's + H/G's so they too could have triple dates and it would fit so nice and snugly - but yet, she didn't sink N/G or R/L, which are both alongside pairings to H/Hr.

But the books aren't about couples fitting 'nice and snuggly'. They're not about couples - sure, little romances on the sidelines but the book's focus is on other things than triple dates in Hogsmead.

We differ here then. I think that Cho was indeed jealous of Hermione - who wouldn't be jealous of Hermione, when she is so close to Harry? And the point that Harmonians make isn't Cho being jealous itself, it's how Harry responded to her jealousy. Harry completely defended her, and placed Hermione above Cho, who was meant to be his LI.

Cho wasn't his love interest, she was his crush, and Harry was realizing rather brutally that she had feelings of her own. And he didn't like that - 'human hosepipe', remember?
Harry defended his best friend just like he's done for 5 years. Just like Hermione defended Ron in GoF - don't some Harmonians think that Harry was her LI then?

Well, obviously she couldn't possibly know every little detail that happened on their date, but as I said on the previous thread, even Crabbe and Goyle could suss out how the date went - and Hermione is way above their intellect, so why should she have to ask?

Because she's Harry's best friend.
Because she wanted to give him advice, if she suspected the date went badly.
Because there is no way of knowing that Cho wasn't just being shy after their date.
Endless reasons.

If there is such a lack of development with her so called relationship with Ron a year after the Yule Ball, wouldn't one think that it's time to move on? Although I hate to say this, but Hermione could parallel Ginny here - Ginny gave up on Harry, Hermione gave up on Ron.

Lack of development?

So the perfume thing wasn't development? The looking after each other wasn't a development? Ron seeming to actually realize his feelings wasn't a development? Hermione being able to see, what many didn't (many readers, too..) that the reason for Ron's incapability in prefectship and Quidditch lay with the twins, that isn't development?

But Harry saving Hermione's life (again...) is development?

Love,
Eyrun

The Leprechaun

June 7th, 2005, 5:18 am

I think everyone is wearing some sort of coloured sunglasses around purely because we wish to see two of the characters match together for a variety of reasons.

It is sad when this happens, I personally don't have this problem. I don't really see Harmony, I did for the first three books though. Why did I change? Well, I changed because of a multitude of reasons. Ginny's introduction and Cho introduction shook my belief in Harmony, but I was still thinking Harmony may still happen. That was the case until GoF, with the Ron/Hermione tension and the more interest in Cho on Harry's part, I just couldn't remain on Harmony. Heron, somewhat in retrospect looked much more likely, as did Harry/Cho and Chocolate (to tell truth, I wasn't really ever sure who would be with Harry, but I'm pretty confident that it won't be Hermione). I am perfectly willing to listen and look at an argument, but I've only seen a few that shook me in any way (but hey, some still shook my beliefs).

So the question is: Will you change ships if your desired preference does not come to fruition after HBP? Even if it seems inevitable the characters will not sway for a change in partners?

If it turns out I am wrong I will deal with it, it's only a portion of the book
and I'm not blindly attached to Heron and Chocolate. It's what I see and believe will happen, if they don't sail I'll still be happy, as long as they aren't contrived. Harmony, I don't see as contrived, necessarily. I just think that there needs to be a few things that happen in order for it to settle in my mind right, without putting me off. It's not a dislike of Harmony, it's a lack of belief in it, though I do fully admit it's possibility.

All I can say is I hope that after HBP, if one ship or many ships is/are pretty obviously sailing, that those who are looking as if they are probably right, celebrate respectfully (I intend to).

SSJ_Jup81

June 7th, 2005, 5:57 am

I think everyone is wearing some sort of coloured sunglasses around purely because we wish to see two of the characters match together for a variety of reasons.Well, that's not the case with me. Until GoF, pairings hadn't even come to mind to me much.

It's also telling, on my part, how most of the shippers here point out some scenes/interactions as shippy that I never once thought of as shippy (and I'd say that consists of about 95% of the stuff I never did notice). This goes for all ships, and that includes the one I ship. I'm more of the simplistic type when it comes to pairings. I stick to simple explanations for things like that.
So the question is: Will you change ships if your desired preference does not come to fruition after HBP? Even if it seems inevitable the characters will not sway for a change in partners?I like to think that I ship what I see. To me, after reading GoF five years ago (I didn't know of any JKR's quotes or anything to influence my decision or views either; I didn't find out about quotes til I signed up here in January), Heron just seemed to jump out at me.

Also, with the way the books are going, it seems to be pointing in this direction; although, if I'm wrong in that regard, then I'd change ship anyway. Shipping isn't really all that important to me, it's just something fun to debate.

greyashowl

June 7th, 2005, 9:31 am

So the question is: Will you change ships if your desired preference does not come to fruition after HBP? Even if it seems inevitable the characters will not sway for a change in partners?

Well I ship Chocolate and and then Heron and have for so long that I have book, movie and author quotes swimming in my head. I don't expect Chocolate until the 7th book, but I'm hoping for a 'clumsy and slightly jealous of Dean' Harry in book 6. I don't think I could go to the other side (or ship) I may just forget about it altogether and start to focus on the big plot instead.

The only reason I like the shipping aspect is because it's something I actually know and understand, the big plot is something I will never guess and sometimes even the theories posted regarding the big plot goes straight over my head.

lanifiel

June 7th, 2005, 11:37 am

This is a moderator marking point.

cerussite

June 7th, 2005, 2:55 pm

baekjool

June 7th, 2005, 4:36 pm

Well, that's not the case with me. Until GoF, pairings hadn't even come to mind to me much.

It's also telling, on my part, how most of the shippers here point out some scenes/interactions as shippy that I never once thought of as shippy (and I'd say that consists of about 95% of the stuff I never did notice). This goes for all ships, and that includes the one I ship. I'm more of the simplistic type when it comes to pairings. I stick to simple explanations for things like that.
I like to think that I ship what I see. To me, after reading GoF five years ago (I didn't know of any JKR's quotes or anything to influence my decision or views either; I didn't find out about quotes til I signed up here in January), Heron just seemed to jump out at me.

The first Harry Potter book I read was GOF, mind you back then I didn't even know nothing about the HP fandom in the internet, so, by the time I got to the Yule Ball scene I just remember thinking "Why doesn't Ron just kisses her and get it over with?", the writer made sure to include all the factors for a developing romantic relationship between two teenagers, the tension was there, and the awkward feeling was there, and I remembered the awkward handshake scene in the COS movie (which I just had seen) and when I first saw it I didn't even spare a thought about it, but I put two and two together and I got on the internet to find out if any people out there had picked up on that and to my astonishment I found out that there was already an all-out war betwen the R/Hr's and the H/Hr's.

So, I went and read the first three books and I tried to pick up on any any scenes that may point to a romantic relationship between H/Hr and I found nothing, no tension, no nothing, only a deep friendship between them in which Ron plays an important part as a sort of mediator.

So my point is: if a complete neophyte to the series picked up the R/Hr moments, then maybe it was the writer's intention for the reader to think exactly that, but the beauty or JKR's writing is that the scenes are subtle and give room for discussion, this being the reason why there are so many of us in this forums bitting each other heads off.

Gotta go.

Half Blood Matt

June 7th, 2005, 4:41 pm

hotharry

June 7th, 2005, 4:49 pm

I would have to disagree that just because people don't get along doesn't mean that they can't be either friends or lovers. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley do not always get along and yet they are together and still love eachother. I think that people believe that once you get married life is perfect and you live happily ever after. Well life is not that way, your spouse will bother you and he or she will not be perfect. I think that Ron and Hermione's relationship is so rocky because neither are being honest with eachother and therefore they are angered at eachother because they expect certain things and do not receive it all the time. Once everything is on the table along with their expectations, their relationship will be better.

Bill_Armaorum

June 7th, 2005, 4:53 pm

MadameSparks

June 7th, 2005, 5:23 pm

I don't want to speak for Physis, but I think that Physis is talking about the bickering between Ron and Hermione. And I don't think that I need to provide canon that Ron and Hermione argue a great many times. The "bickering" factor is used by both main ships. As a Harmonian, I see the constant battles as a sign of R/Hr not working in the long run (long run for me = over the course possibly of book six).

As I was speaking from a direct quote of Ron's where he lumps all of Luna's statements into the category of dumbest thing he's ever heard.....to say that someone else thinks that of another character when no such statement exists is incorrect. However if there is a statement where Hermione says she thinks Ron says exclusivly dumb things and definines his character as ridiculous with the manner in which she says it, then you'll have me as a Harmonian. Bickering is one thing, but as Hermione doesn't avoid it and carries on with it, one might feel that it is a positive thing. It can be translated to be in a positive light, where a direct statement of Luna saying only dumb things cannot be.

I stand by my request for a quote.

Edit: If I was to take the comment as exaggerating and not meant (first it would not have been a one liner which shouldn't be made on this thread anyway), i feel it was boderline inflamatory, as one liners that are unsupported by text and veer away from what was being discussed and a short accusation made to make Ron look stupid and as if Hermy can't stand talking to him often gets peoples backs up. As I'm assuming physis wasn't trying to be inflamatory I must then assume that he/she believes that. And if they believe that, they should be able to offer support from the text.

MPPMarauderGirl

June 7th, 2005, 5:25 pm

Ariane2

June 7th, 2005, 7:00 pm

muggleview

June 7th, 2005, 7:01 pm

Ron and Hermione bickering have been discussed a lot of times. Some suggested that bickering is good for communication, some suggested it's not good. A few has even dared to say bickering cannot be a part of “true love,” although most people agree that good, long-lasting relationships are not void of bickering or arguing.

Bickering or arguing happens when one strongly opiniated person meets an equally determined person. It takes two to bicker. If one side gives in, the bickering will not happen. Of course, "giving in" does not mean agreeing. The "giving in" party will use some ways to cut short the argument, either using authority (pulling rank) or getting away.

Hermione is a very strongly opiniated lady. She thinks she knows what is right and has sufficient sharpness and vast knowledge to deter her discussion opponents. She was the only child of a well-educated pair of dentists. She is probably used to get praises for her great knowledge above her classmates, even before Hogwarts.

Most of the people in the HP series do not possess adequate capability or mentality to argue with her. This includes Harry. As recently as in OOP, Harry has shown 2 ways to avoid prolonged arguments with Hermione: (1) by shouting at her, (2) by lying to her. He tried to reason with her before, but to no avail. Harry simply cannot or will not cope with Hermione's tendency to argue.

One person that can match up against Hermione is Ron. He has sufficient training and experience from his big family. He grows up under the regular bickering of his parents. He has to defend himself and his desires from his older brothers and later also from his only sister. He picked up the phrases, tricks and strategies to engage succesfully in arguments. It's not purely a talent. It's a result of trial and error. In time, he has enough wit and sharpness in using words. Being an excellent chess player, Ron is a good strategist, too, knowing when and where to say something to surprise people, either for jokes or for real information.

Ron may not dream to use his "communication" experiences in Hogwarts. After all, Hogwarts is where he hopes to stand out as a Head Boy and Quidditch Captain (SS, Mirror of Erised), instead of being one of the seven in the family back home. Here he will finally get recognition on his own merit. He does not have to argue to get his opinion heard. Harry is a good companion that can quickly appreciate his opinions. He knows more than Harry about the wizard world. He can share many things with Harry and gain respect from this wonder boy. He does not see tendency of confrontation from Harry. Ron is happy with the prospect of going to Hogwarts with Harry. But Jo, the author, thinks differently. Still in the very first trip to Hogwarts, a long showdown looms.
To Ron's surprise, right after he started to make friend with Harry, Hermione popped up looking for a toad and wasted no time to give her opinion to his ability to hex. Did she try to measure up with Neville and find him not a worthy discussion opponent, so then she was looking for another one? This ruins some of the fun Ron hoped to have in Hogwarts. He noticably groaned when Hermione was sorted into Gryffindor. Ron did not plan to get into any arguments as he usually witness and take part in the Burrow, but after the fiasco in Filch's class, he loudly expressed his dislike about her behaviour and accurately attacked one flaw in her personality: her solitude life. Apparently, Hermione never really made close friends in her life. She might not feel at home in the Muggle world, due to her magical nature, so she doesn’t maintain any friendship from her previous school. In Hogwarts, her classmates were uncomfortable with her aggresiveness to get the highest grades. Therefore, Hermione was very much effected by Ron’s words. Has she finally found someone who dares to stand up against her? She may have high hopes that Hogwarts will appreciate her capability. Unexpectedly, the one boy who she has tried several times to impress, not only did not show appreciation, but also spoke out her biggest fear: to be denounced by her peers. I think this is the vulnerability that Jo mentioned about Hermione. She seems strong and well equipped from outside, but inside is insecure and needs a lot of appreciations. Ron possesses the capability to give these to her (and to Harry, who suffers from similar problem of attention- and love-deficiency) in later time, but for now he hurts her feeling. After the troll incident, Hermione sees Ron in whole new light. Not as lover (yet?), for they were too young to think about it, but as a worthy companion. She finally finds her match.

With Harry being famous, talented and capable, I would not be surprised to see Hermione is attached to him (at that time as a good friend, not as a lover). She volunteers herself to be Harry’s supporter. I am slightly amazed that she sees Ron, who is pale in comparison to Harry. Ron is a loyal friend. He is humble, down-to-earth and trustworthy. Hermione trusts Ron the same way as Harry trusts Ron. But that’s not what Hermione sees in Ron. Ron can do what Harry cannot do. He dares to face Hermione’s argument. Hermione likes this rare challenge.

Some has suspected that Ron suffers from Oedipus Complex. I think that’s too far. As many normal boys, he is attracted to women possessing some traits of his mother. It may not be a conscious decision. Ron has witnessed how unreasonable his mother can be (insisting him to wear maroon and eat corned-beef, the two things he hated). He noticed how his mother can be difficult to his father. Yet, he loves his mother. No doubt about it. Among all meek girls in Hogwarts, Hermione stands out. She can be regarded as downright annoying. In Snape’s class, everyone in the room admitted to say that “Hermione is a know-it-all” once a week. Only Ron said it twice a week. Only he dared to say it more often or only he is allowed to said it more often? I think it’s a combination.
Hermione is a difficult girl to cope with, but Ron has seen one like that in his own mother. He has the experience with someone like that, although it can’t be said that he has success in controlling that kind of person before. Learning from his mother, Ron is also able to see through Hermione’s vulnerable personality. Things that hurts people may hurt her deeper. She often cries when being misunderstood. I believe that’s trigger Ron’s gallant moves everytime Draco insulted Hermione. It’s not out of love (yet?), but because he thought that it may deeply hurt her. With this deeper recognition of Hermione’s personality, Ron can find strategy to face her challenge and, turning the table, to challenge her when necessary (Yule Ball argument).

Now Ron and Hermione are constantly playing the bickering game. They attack and defend alternately. They tested each other’s weaknesses and strengths. That’s why they need to cover so many subjects. And they apparently enjoy it. Both felt annoyed when Harry shouted to stop them. One important fact is that the bickering does not negatively affect their friendship. The bickering actually strengthens the friendship. It leads to “he said, she said” type of debate. A way to know each other better. It is obvious that Ron hardly uses insults to Hermione. On the other hand, Hermione is used to denigrate people and used insulting words a lot, like “stupid”, “rubbish” etc to Ron. Ron is pretty much immune to it. Even when the phrases like “insensitive wart” and “emotional range of a teaspoon” are used, Ron can still counter-attack them by successfully enlisting Harry as his ally. Most readers may not realize how comfortable they are with this high stake game. I say “high stake” because not many people can stand those types of insult, even from “such a lovely, sweet-tempered girl”, like Hermione. I think Harry will explode if Hermione ever said things like that to him. This indicates how confident Ron and Hermione are with each other's arguments and how strong the bond between them.

It’s a pity that towards the end of OotP, the bickering subdued. I don’t believe they stop doing it. It’s because our narrator, Harry, seems too annoyed to hear anymore of it. This is their last big bickering in the book.

'Yes, but to employ someone who's actually refusing to let us do magic! What's Dumbledore playing at?'
'And she's trying to get people to spy for her,' said Ron darkly.
'Remember when she said she wanted us to come and tell her if we hear anyone saying You-Know-Who's back?'
'Of course she's here to spy on us all, that's obvious, why else would Fudge have wanted her to come?' snapped Hermione.
'Don't start arguing again,' said Harry wearily, as Ron opened his mouth to retaliate. 'Can't we just... let's just do that homework, get it out of the way...' (OOP)

The nature of Ron and Hermione bickering is to explore how each of them sees a topic from different points-of-view. This is a healthy bickering, because at the end, both will be enriched with more insights, although they may not openly admit it to the other. For husband and wife, these are the type of conversation which leads to a joint-decision, after knowing all angles and risks.

Is the bickering leading to true love? It may, but it is not guaranteed. Arthur and Molly Weasley have a happy and productive marriage with constant bickering. For many other pairs it may lead to divorce. It depends on the personality. If they like bickering, then bickering will bind them closer. For Ron and Hermione right now, bickering is as fun as playing a game (a courting game?). They enjoy their game, but others may not understand it, Harry included. Ron and Hermione’d better not to involve others in the bickering. Instead of tearing them apart, the need to bickering without Harry will force them to find private sessions to do it. In OOP, they apparently have good opportunities to do it: times when Harry was under constant detention with Professor Umbridge, and times to perform their prefect duties. The unseen bickerings have resulted in more understanding between them, more effective communication (using non-verbal language) and less negative impression to the readers who don’t see them together yet in OOP. In the last part of OOP, Harry started to feel the effect of the bonding. Ron and Hermione understand each other more, whereas Harry felt isolated from the two. He didn't feel that comfortable being around them in the hospital and in the feast. Meanwhile, Ron and Hermione are more comfortable than ever in each other's company. They synchronized their period of stay in hospital. They didn't reach out for Harry, but leaving him in his own thoughts, hoping one day he will open up to them. Hermione trusts Ron's judgement more and follows his directions without arguing, contradicting what the readers are made to believe that Hermione is way more intelligent than Ron. Apparently, Hermione sees something in Ron's thinking capability that is oblivious to Harry and the readers. This cannot be a one-time discovery. It has to do with gradual understanding of Ron's weakness and strength, to be compared with Hermione's own weakness and strength. The way to find the balance and harmony is through their bickerings. In clearer word, bickering binds Ron and Hermione together.

MPPMarauderGirl

June 7th, 2005, 7:25 pm

I am new here. I ship Heron, since I think Hermione and Ron are perfect for each other. I think Moonlight and Chocolte have a equal chance of happening and so do not ship one over the other. So for the moment I will ship both until someone comes along and shows evidence that makes me support one ship over the other. A small part of me does go for Moonlight more so SIGNS can happen, but I don't need to have the sextet paired up and have triple dates.

Look around muggleview's links in his signature and search around for more about Chocolate. It is a good ship and I'd love to see you aboard it. :tu: There's also an amazing article here: http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=hglovered (which I received the link of from muggleview as well)! Consider Chocolate. It is a good strong ship; and now that love is in the air (flying around on a broom like Ginny and Harry during Quidditch ;)) in HBP I think you'll see what I mean.

Luna_Anne

June 7th, 2005, 7:29 pm

:welcome: Ariane2! I would love it if you shipped Moonlight, but I am perfectly satisfied to see you ship it and Chocolate at the moment. I don't have anything against Chocolate and does have a strong chance of happening. Nut I first foremostly ship Moonlight, so would love to have you abroad. I'll go and see if there are any good Moonlight essays that can help you decide which ship to go for primarily, besides Heron. Though if you really wanted to pair up Neville, you could always have him with Hermione and ship Red Moon instead.

Lieke

June 7th, 2005, 7:36 pm

Look around muggleview's links in his signature and search around for more about Chocolate. It is a good ship and I'd love to see you aboard it. :tu: There's also an amazing article here: http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=hglovered (which I received the link of from muggleview as well)! Consider Chocolate. It is a good strong ship; and now that love is in the air (flying around on a broom like Ginny and Harry during Quidditch ;)) in HBP I think you'll see what I mean.

Thanx for the link! I'm always in for a well-written chocolaty editorial! I wonder why there are only two at Madame Puddi's at mugglenet editorial section... :huh: Probably because it doesn't NEED much support :p

MPPMarauderGirl

June 7th, 2005, 7:47 pm

Thanx for the link! I'm always in for a well-written chocolaty editorial! I wonder why there are only two at Madame Puddi's at mugglenet editorial section... :huh: Probably because it doesn't NEED much support :p

This is an amazing editorial! It's really HUGE! It goes through everything that Ginny was in and it is tied together so nicely! It's got so much potential, and it squashes all the myths: Harry does notice Ginny! A lot more than is appropriate! ;) Hope you enjoy! I think everyone should read it, it is really worth the time!

ladykrystyna

June 7th, 2005, 7:56 pm

The first Harry Potter book I read was GOF, mind you back then I didn't even know nothing about the HP fandom in the internet, so, by the time I got to the Yule Ball scene I just remember thinking "Why doesn't Ron just kisses her and get it over with?", the writer made sure to include all the factors for a developing romantic relationship between two teenagers, the tension was there, and the awkward feeling was there, and I remembered the awkward handshake scene in the COS movie (which I just had seen) and when I first saw it I didn't even spare a thought about it, but I put two and two together and I got on the internet to find out if any people out there had picked up on that and to my astonishment I found out that there was already an all-out war betwen the R/Hr's and the H/Hr's.

So, I went and read the first three books and I tried to pick up on any any scenes that may point to a romantic relationship between H/Hr and I found nothing, no tension, no nothing, only a deep friendship between them in which Ron plays an important part as a sort of mediator.

So my point is: if a complete neophyte to the series picked up the R/Hr moments, then maybe it was the writer's intention for the reader to think exactly that, but the beauty or JKR's writing is that the scenes are subtle and give room for discussion, this being the reason why there are so many of us in this forums bitting each other heads off.

Gotta go.

I agree with you! I saw the movies first, noticed the awkward handshake in CoS and the tension in PoA, so by the time I read the books (which I read in order) and got to GoF, R/Hr was obvious to me, so that, while I try to remain open-minded, I just can't see H/Hr at all, and the books are from Harry's POV! In fact, from Harry's POV the only person for sure I know that he liked was Cho. Everything else is questionable.

I ship Heron and Chocolate; Heron IMO has canon; Chocolate does not; it's just the romantic in me.

rowansjet

June 7th, 2005, 8:21 pm

I am new here. I ship Heron, since I think Hermione and Ron are perfect for each other. I think Moonlight and Chocolte have a equal chance of happening and so do not ship one over the other. So for the moment I will ship both until someone comes along and shows evidence that makes me support one ship over the other. A small part of me does go for Moonlight more so SIGNS can happen, but I don't need to have the sextet paired up and have triple dates.Look around muggleview's links in his signature and search around for more about Chocolate. It is a good ship and I'd love to see you aboard it. :tu: There's also an amazing article here: http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=hglovered (which I received the link of from muggleview as well)! Consider Chocolate. It is a good strong ship; and now that love is in the air (flying around on a broom like Ginny and Harry during Quidditch ;)) in HBP I think you'll see what I mean.No, No, don't pay any attention to MPPMarauderGirl! Take a look at the essay in my sig for one of the reasons Moonlight is a strong possibility. And I'm sure there's one or two essays at mugglenet.

Lastly, head over to the ArtisicAlley.org character section (http://www.artisticalley.org/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=611), rainmaker135 has some great Moonlight pictures in the Harry amd Luna sections. :)

Ariane2

June 7th, 2005, 8:37 pm

Thanks for the links. I read the one about Moonlight first and was all for shipping it. Then I read a Chocolate one and it put me back into supporting both. I don't suppose I'll ever make up my mind about the ships. Maybe if I shipped Luna/Theodore Nott or Luna/Colin it would solve the problem for me, but I don't.

HPrcksmyworld

June 7th, 2005, 8:40 pm

i'm a major chocolate and heron shipper (as you can see from my sig) and i just wanted to say i really enjoy readin all of your posts and debates!

keep going people!

MPPMarauderGirl

June 7th, 2005, 8:50 pm

No, No, don't pay any attention to MPPMarauderGirl! Take a look at the essay in my sig for one of the reasons Moonlight is a strong possibility. And I'm sure there's one or two essays at mugglenet.

Lastly, head over to the ArtisicAlley.org character section (http://www.artisticalley.org/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=611), rainmaker135 has some great Moonlight pictures in the Harry amd Luna sections. :)

:p :p No, no! Chocolate, Chocolate's the only way! Read that article and join today! :tu: :p Pay attention to me! Pay attention to me! :lol: :lol: Remember that Harry's the main character and let him decide. That article shows what Harry wants. Quidditch, fun and laughter! Ginny, Ginny, Ginny. :p

On a more serious note, could someone please answer my question to those who like SIGNS? About the fact that Neville likes Hermione, not Ginny!

PS: Chocolate RULES! :tu: :eyebrows: :agree: :D

LuPiN_RuLeS913

June 7th, 2005, 9:01 pm

MPPMarauderGirl, I don't ship SIGNS, but I can see Neville liking Hermione over Ginny. That's for the reasons you pointed out in your post. If Heron doesn't happen, then I'd probably go to either Harmony or a N/Hr ship. What with Hermione being very mother-like and Neville seeming to need to be told what and how to do something every so often, it would be a good ship if neither Harmony or Heron could happen. Hermione might not seem keen on the idea right now though, but if she sees how sweet I'm sure Neville is... Perhaps if Neville achieves a little more? Do we have a NAME for Neville and Hermione? If not, what about Blundering Brains? :p

phantomwitch

June 7th, 2005, 9:06 pm

As for me, I read the books in order, and then saw the movies. When I read the first two books, I thought that Harry and Hermione getting together would be nice, but I didn't really ship it. In books three and four, I saw Harry and Hermione growing closer and leaving behind the "just friends" feelings. At this time I was introduced to the online fandom, and was shocked to hear half of the people who read the books thought Ron and Hermione were going to get together. Hearing the arguments online, I almost switched ships(I think the bitter attacks on Harmony made me pause, because at that time there were a LOT less rules). However, every time I go back and read the books(again, I've read each of the first four at least four times each, and OotP twice), I still see Harry and Hermione. As I was firmly entrenched in Harmony by the time I saw the movies, I wasn't affected by anything they did(they kept messing up other details, too, so I just thought it was another misinterpretation on the director's part).

Half-Blood Prince Shipping Changes
If Ron and Hermione get together and Harry isn't jealous at all, I will jump ship and swim for shore(I think my enthusiasm would falter if I was proven completely wrong). 'Course, I'd probably board the second voyage of Heron, after all the books were over. I will stop shipping RedMoon if Luna stops treating Ron in a special way. I will stop shipping Signs only after the last book, if it doesn't happen.

Now, I know Harry wasn't jealous of Krum, but I've already posted my thoughts on that. If you would like to read it, check my list of all posts, as I hate repeating myself continuously.

yahwehgrl

June 7th, 2005, 9:15 pm

I'm new to this post - what is Moonlight? Harry/Luna? If it is, woo hoo, I guess I ship that. And Heron.

SSJ_Jup81

June 7th, 2005, 9:36 pm

Well, I may be the only chocolate shipper to say this, but I don't actually believe there are any strictly shippy moments for H/G.I feel the same way, ironically...but then again, I'm not a Chocolate shipper so that probably has a lot to do with it. ^^

To me, I feel that Ginny would be a nice match for Harry (and see advantages of Harry's being with Luna or Hermione too), but not really into it.
I believe that there is possible, even probable forshadowing, and that Ginny has been seemingly developed with all Harry's interests and likes, and that he reacts well when they talk. She so far seems to have been developed for Harry.This is lil ole me not really noticing. ^^
I don't believe there are as of yet any shippy moments for H/Hr, the closest being 'she talked about you often' I would be more inclined (but not definitely)to believe that if he said 'she talks about you all the time' or 'she only ever talks about you' or some such.I had a theory about that, but not too many people commented on it, I don't think. For that, I saw it as a point against Harmony/Heron and a point for Harmony/Heron, which means both cancels the other out. :pI can understand why some people bring up certain points, and I will argue them occasionally even when I am of two minds whether or not they are shippy. :)You sound like me in this sense. I'm pretty much the same.

The first Harry Potter book I read was GOF, mind you back then I didn't even know nothing about the HP fandom in the internet, so, by the time I got to the Yule Ball scene I just remember thinking "Why doesn't Ron just kisses her and get it over with?", the writer made sure to include all the factors for a developing romantic relationship between two teenagers, the tension was there, and the awkward feeling was there, and I remembered the awkward handshake scene in the COS movie (which I just had seen) and when I first saw it I didn't even spare a thought about it, but I put two and two together and I got on the internet to find out if any people out there had picked up on that and to my astonishment I found out that there was already an all-out war betwen the R/Hr's and the H/Hr's.

So, I went and read the first three books and I tried to pick up on any any scenes that may point to a romantic relationship between H/Hr and I found nothing, no tension, no nothing, only a deep friendship between them in which Ron plays an important part as a sort of mediator.

So my point is: if a complete neophyte to the series picked up the R/Hr moments, then maybe it was the writer's intention for the reader to think exactly that, but the beauty or JKR's writing is that the scenes are subtle and give room for discussion, this being the reason why there are so many of us in this forums bitting each other heads off.

Gotta go.That's interesting. My friend who's not really into the whole Harry Potter fandom, has only watched the movies and back then at that time, I wasn't really a "shipper" since I didn't get into the online fandom til earlier this year. Anyway, after seeing CoS, he asked me, "Do those two [Ron & Hermione] get together in the books?" since he knew I read the books. I told him they haven't yet, but they might since it seems to be going that way. Just by the movies, he feels that they're forshadowing Heron, as the interactions between Harry and Hermione are pretty friendshippy (to him).

cerussite

June 7th, 2005, 10:15 pm

Half-Blood Prince Shipping Changes
If Ron and Hermione get together and Harry isn't jealous at all, I will jump ship and swim for shore(I think my enthusiasm would falter if I was proven completely wrong). 'Course, I'd probably board the second voyage of Heron, after all the books were over. I will stop shipping RedMoon if Luna stops treating Ron in a special way. I will stop shipping Signs only after the last book, if it doesn't happen.
.

You won't have to swim for shore I will chuck you a life ring and pull you aboard HMS Heron, and I hope you will return the favour if my ships sink :) I think we should commision life ring icons to throw to opposing shippers if their ship sinks :p

Don't loose your enthusiasm, this is all just a bit of fun, I think the only way I will loose enthusiasm is if it's so obvious that no one can deny it any more (that and my computer packing it in which seems more and more likely by the day :upset: :upset: )and there is nothing left to debate :evil: after all wheres the fun in that.

I keep thinking what it would take for me to switch ship, I believe I will know it when I see it but at the moment I can't define it it, short of characters dying (and that may only mean stopping a ship not necessarily joining another)

Reverie

June 7th, 2005, 10:19 pm

Hi, I would like to intruduce myself and say that I'm a H/Hr shipper. I am mostly a lurker and have been since OoTP first came out. I have acutaly replied to a few posts here and there but never actually posted why I became a Harry and Hermione shipper.

When I first started reading the books I didn't really ship anything. I thought Harry and Hermione would be cute but wasn't too sure. So then I said what about Ron and Hermione?I thought maybe but then I said nah. The reason was becasue in my belief only Ron liked Hermione and Hermione didn't to my belief return those feelings. I didn't think there was enough evidence to ship anything and be completely sure it was right. So then I got my OoTP copy, read it, and my eyes were opened to the possibility of Harry and Hermione happening. There were many moments that lead me to believe they were getting much closer and could possibly be more than friends in the next book. I have now read many essays posted by other H/Hr shippers and am convinced it has a very strong possibility of happening.

I have to admit though other ships also have the possility of happening and that sometimes when I read some of these debates between some of you in my mind I'm seriously consididering jumping ships. The good thing about that is that either way JK goes I won't be dissapointed or confused.

cerussite

June 7th, 2005, 10:21 pm

I believe that there is possible, even probable forshadowing, and that Ginny has been seemingly developed with all Harry's interests and likes, and that he reacts well when they talk. She so far seems to have been developed for Harry.

This is lil ole me not really noticing. ^^

I didn't notice at first, I came out of my first read thinking H/G but didn't know why (with Hr/R I could name some scenes), after a re-read little things just seemed to stand out more, but I will admit the possibility of having read the clues wrong :)

plus I think it is more fun to take sides in a debate :evil: and Ginny seemed like the most likely candidate to make Harry happy to me so I chose to ship chocolate.

Machiavellian

June 7th, 2005, 10:31 pm

Well, that's not the case with me. Until GoF, pairings hadn't even come to mind to me much.

It's also telling, on my part, how most of the shippers here point out some scenes/interactions as shippy that I never once thought of as shippy (and I'd say that consists of about 95% of the stuff I never did notice). This goes for all ships, and that includes the one I ship. I'm more of the simplistic type when it comes to pairings. I stick to simple explanations for things like that.
I like to think that I ship what I see. To me, after reading GoF five years ago (I didn't know of any JKR's quotes or anything to influence my decision or views either; I didn't find out about quotes til I signed up here in January), Heron just seemed to jump out at me.

Also, with the way the books are going, it seems to be pointing in this direction; although, if I'm wrong in that regard, then I'd change ship anyway. Shipping isn't really all that important to me, it's just something fun to debate.

I agree with you about the overflow of non-romantic scenes as ship evidence. I don't feel that strongly about most ships but I really just don't like H/Hr because it seems to me that 100% not 95% of 'evidence', or 'clues' that are used to support that ship have nothing to do with shipping. If you believe their arguments you have to believe that the big central question of the books is who will Harry end up with rather than the fight with Voldemort. If this was indeed the central question I'd consider some of the clues. H(However maybe I'm wrong, maybe Harry will defeat evil by having a nice snog with the right person :huh: ). Seriously though when a mere mention of Hermione's name is shown as evidence in a book that only slightly involves shipping it is going to far. Jk Rowling is not always thinking about putting clues for shipping into the books as she writes; it's not a romance novel. I think any clues or foreshadowing we are given is going to be fairly obvious, as the R/Hr ship is.

I know H/Hr shippers will respond to this by saying JK Rowling is such a good author that it is an insult to think that any foreshadowing is as simple and as clear as the clues supporting R/Hr. OK fine, even though this is obviously the argument of someone in denial, (or really paranoid of being 'tricked' by an author), lets go along with it for a minute. After all if R/Hr didn't happen I really wouldn't care. That being said even if R/Hr isn't going to happen or work out that still doesn't mean that Hermione is automatically going to end up with Harry. R/Hr not happening is not evidence that H/Hr will happen.

shmink

June 7th, 2005, 10:41 pm

I read the first three books in 1999, and the fourth when it came out in 2000, and even then I didn't have a clue about shipping. I had a vague feeling R/Hr had something going on in GoF, and I always felt that something would eventually happen with Harry/Ginny, but I just didn't care who got together at that point.

When I came online about a year ago, I was astounded at all the firmly held opinions out here, not to mention fascinated - and being a hopeless romantic didn't help. :blush: Since then I've studied the arguments from both sides, re-read the books several times, and dug up every single thing JKR has ever said on the subject, and I am now firmly aboard HMS Heron/Chocolate. To me, these two pairings make the most sense, considering the series as a whole.

I don't have time to go into detail now, but I believe that JKR, in OotP, has set the stage for Harry to have an unrequited crush on Ginny in HBP, mirroring Ginny's crush earlier in the series. I don't doubt Jo's ability to completely surprise me, though!

Weirdly enough, when I watch the movies, I just think Harry and Hermione are so darn cute... *curses own innate mushiness* ...but it doesn't affect my shipping in the books one bit.

sherrilina

June 7th, 2005, 11:22 pm

The thing about shipping that many people seem to get confused about is that shipping is NOT about what's going to happen, but what you want to happen--the two individuals who you want most to be together, who you think go so well together and have the best relationship. Whether it is likely or not is irrelevant, though it helps because you would want the ship to happen.

I am a devoted Harry/Hermione shipper, and I definitely think that there is a possibility--there is plenty of evidence in the books, if one reads carefully (and no, it's not over-analyzing to say that it's a sign of jealousy when Hermione acts curt and impatient and businesslike and hides her face in a letter and uses terminology like "did she corner you" (putting the blame on Cho instead of Harry) when talking with Harry in the post kiss scene, and then acts happy and bright when she asks Harry about a date that she knows went badly (a date which she conveniently interrupted)--anymore than it is overanalyzing to say it's a sign that Ron is jealous when he huffs and puffs when Hermione mentions Viktor Krum).

However I am also resigned to a strong possibility that R/Hr wil happen. I won't like it (though I'd rather have R/Hr happen three million times than have H/G happen once, as I just hate the new, Mary Sue-ified SuperTotallyBarbieOoTP!Ginny), but I would still go on thinking that Harry and Hermione are better together, and still enjoy my ship--in other words, no, I would not change my ship no matter what happens because I would still have the same opinions regardless, and ships are opinions about who goes better together, not likelihoods. This is also why I hope that romance resolution is held off until Book 7, unless there is another Cho-esque romance that ends by the end. But then again, it's entirely possible that if R/Hr happens in HBP, that Hermione might still end up with Harry in the end. After all, Cho didn't last, and as the first poster said, love isn't certain. So I don't think that anyone should be jumping ships or giving up hope until at least after Book 7, if at all.

And from what I've heard from fellow serious H/Hr-shippers, I don't think most of my fellow hard-core Harmonians will be jumping into the waters either.

muggleview

June 7th, 2005, 11:38 pm

What a good feeling to see we can talk amicably all the possibilities of jumping ships. There is nothing wrong with that, because we are not obligated to defend our ship with all cost. Anyway all ships belong to JK Rowling. She wrote the books as such that we began to think about the possibilities. The biggest push is that Jo Rowling herself wants us to think about romance and that she wrote romance between the lines. Thus people started to sail to remote islands and dig the treasures out of the sands.

It's funny that many go to the extreme in pairing every character! I wonder whether they think HP series as a matchmaking guide. Having a mass wedding of just graduated high schoolers is a bit too much. Otherwise, the last chapter of Book 7 will look like a wedding registry of a townhall or city hall.

The key person for romance is of course Harry Potter.
If the story is about Harry who stay solitary in a room at Hogwarts, and fought Voldemort using his mind from his room, there will be no room for romance, right?
But the reality is we can pair Harry with any female characters, including those mentioned only once or even with a ghost and have fun with it, as long as Jo Rowling has not published Book 7. I think this serves as a test, how well we know Harry. So far we have 5 books about him, from his point-of-view and with his opinions. We know what Harry likes and dislikes in life, what places he would rather be, with whom he would rather hang around with, what kind of activities excites him etc. If Jo keeps her word, about placing all clues already in Book 1 and having the final chapter of Book 7 written, it will not be too difficult to guess who he will end up with. However, being a masterful writer she is, Jo kept throwing many confusing twist to cover it up, so we all should be happily tricked. Thus, if we want to show our appreciation to Jo Rowling, we shouldn't be too confident with our "shipping" choice, so that in Book 7, we can genuinely show our surprise and admiration to the final pairing.
Certainly, we are allowed to guess, even if it turns out to be 100% wrong.
Nobody should die for it. It's meant for entertainment only.
Anyway, we hope to see some light with the coming out of HBP and Harry can have a little romance with Ginny.

sherrilina

June 7th, 2005, 11:41 pm

Both Harry and Hermione denied being boyfriend/girlfriend. Harry comes right out and says she's not my girlfriend. Hermione calls it "rubbish". Both find the idea laughable.

Actually you'll find that Hermione never actually denies to anyone that she's Harry's girlfriend in GoF--Harry does all of the talking concerning that, besides Hermione denying that she's a scarlet woman mixing love potions to deliberately ensnare two celebrities at once. I think it's possible that Hermione was calling the lidea of her mixing up love potions and deliberately stringing two boys along because she likes 'em famous is what Hermione was calling rubbish--not necessarily the idea of her being Harry's girlfriend. But the fact is that she's not Harry's girlfriend in this book anyway, so why would her denying this, even if she did, be evidence of her not liking Harry, when it would only be stating the facts, that she wasn't at the present time? And yes, harry doesn't seem to have any romantic feelings necessarily in this book, but maybe he hasn't realized what his feelings are quite yet--he's distracted by Cho, and face it, harry is pretty clueless when it comes to romance--Cho asked him if he wanted to do anything on Valentine's day with her, and he didn't even get it at first! And in OoTP especially Harry shows many signs of a very deep bond with Hermione, and of their friendship deepening--possibly beyond friendship? He certainly seems to care more for Hermione than he does for Ginny, so I think it's ridiculous when H/G shippers insult H/Hr for no being there, but then say that Harry will grow to love Ginny and realize his feeling for her in upcoming books. Wait a minute people--it's possible for Harry to realize romantic feelings for Ginny in the future, but not for Hermione? There's evidence that Hermione has a crush on Harry, but naturally that she's a bit better at hiding it than Ginny was. If you were uncertain about whether you love interest might not retunr your feelings, and were worried about jeapordizing your friendship with him, than you might be just as hesitant.

I don't find Hermione's behavior in the post kiss scene suspicious at all. It seems very clear to me that she is trying to help Harry understand Cho's behavior. She is usually brisk and businesslike when explaining things to Harry and Ron. Nor do I believe she is "hiding" behind her letter. I think she is giving more attention to the letter than Harry, which is why she is vague. When she realizes that Harry is clueless about Cho's feelings she puts the letter aside and gives him a really good explanation of what Cho is feeling and why. What I find significant in the post kiss scene is her reaction to Ron. Yes, Ron is exhibiting "locker room" behavior and showing his ignorance of girls but so is Harry. Harry gets a pitying expression and a patient explanation but she snaps at Ron and tells him he has the emotional range of a teaspoon. Why such a stronger reaction to Ron? I don't think she snaps at Ron because she is upset by Harry kissing Cho. I think she snaps at Ron because she is frustrated with him. Harry has kissed the girl he likes but Ron hasn't even told her how he feels. That's my impression.

Another point in this scene that shows Hermione is not jealous of Cho is the fact that she tells Harry to ask Cho out.

Nor is her behavior suspicious after the date. She is in a good mood because they got Harry's interview done and it will be published.

Actually Hermione does not encourage nor tell Harry to date Cho--she just raises the question--soemthing perfectly natural to want to know about if she had a crush on Harry and wanted to see what he would do. She probably thought it would have occured to him already. Also, even if she was in a good mood because of getting back at Umbrigde, she's a sensitive person, and thus should have tried to make her tone less cheery when asking abotu a date that she KNEW had gone wrong, as she had seen Harry walk in long before he was supposed to, looking disgruntled. Hermione knows Harry well, adn reads him almost better than anyone else. She would have been able to deduce that the date went badly. Finally, the ugly comment might have been an indication of how Hermione thinks Harry sees her, which would then support her insecurity abotu reveraling her feelings to him explicitly.

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 1:12 am

Sherrilina, that was a very thought-provoking post. My understanding is that one can have canon ships and preference ships, and these need not necessarily be the same. My ships are my canon ships as well as my preference ships, because I have no interest in shipping outside of canon (or what I currently see as canon). If Harry ends up with Hermione, I'll change my ship and I'll learn to like it. JKR's universe holds the true magic for me, and I'm more interested in what she meant to write than what I would have liked her to write.

This is just my personal approach to shipping, of course, and there's nothing wrong with shipping based on preference, regardless of what ends up being canon, if that's what you enjoy. :)

ladykrystyna

June 8th, 2005, 1:17 am

Look around muggleview's links in his signature and search around for more about Chocolate. It is a good ship and I'd love to see you aboard it. There's also an amazing article here: http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php...ts&st=hglovered (which I received the link of from muggleview as well)! Consider Chocolate. It is a good strong ship; and now that love is in the air (flying around on a broom like Ginny and Harry during Quidditch ) in HBP I think you'll see what I mean.

It's taken me a half a day to say to you, MarauderGirl - thanks for the link to the article and the website. I have read the one you linked us to, as well as a R/Hr one and it explains the reasons for shipping Heron and Chocolate so well that I'm even more convinced of those ships.

However, so as not to seem snotty, I am totally willing to read more articles about H/Hr to compare. I have read the ones on mugglenet already and they have not convinced me, so I'd like to read more to see if they can change my mind or not. Anyone with more links to H/Hr, please step forward.

Thanks.

IceKat55

June 8th, 2005, 1:58 am

He certainly seems to care more for Hermione than he does for Ginny, so I think it's ridiculous when H/G shippers insult H/Hr for no being there, but then say that Harry will grow to love Ginny and realize his feeling for her in upcoming books. Wait a minute people--it's possible for Harry to realize romantic feelings for Ginny in the future, but not for Hermione?
Comparing what Harry knows of Ginny, versus what he knows of Hermione, I'd say yes, it's extremely possible for him to realize romantic feelings for Ginny in the future, and not for Hermione.

Harry & Hermione have been very close for 5+ years. They've seen each other through some grand adventures, and some terrifying, life-endangering ones as well. He's seen her at her best, her worst, her prettiest, even, and knows well how valuable she is to him, both in terms of her friendship, her loyalty, and her brains. And yet, in all these years, through all this time spent together, he has yet to feel even a hint of a romantic spark for her. Even almost losing her to a slight case of death at the end of OotP did not awaken any realizations within him...so what would it take?

Not to mention the fact that Harry simply does not seem physically attracted to Hermione. He always tends to focus on her less than attractive features (her bushy hair & overly-large front teeth are all he ever says in terms of descriptives for Hermione) in their everyday world. No, I don't believe he thinks she is ugly, as he told her so, and that's perfectly understandable. But nor does that mean he finds her irresistably pretty, and is physically attracted to her at all. The fact that he was so jaw-droppingly shocked by her pretty appearance at the Yule Ball speaks volumes. The fact that Hermione even could look pretty was enough to shock him silly. That's a huge illustration of how he simply doesn't look at her "like that", IMO.

Ginny...is a whole other story. For the first 4 years of his life at Hogwarts, he's known nothing of Ginny. Only that she is "Ron's little sister" who has always been rather taken with him, and doesn't speak around him. When has he had a chance to get to know her? So far, he hasn't. But that began to change in OotP. Ginny was given drastic development, for us, and for Harry...and as that continues on into the next book(s), who's to say that Harry won't realize a thing or two about her, including his own attraction to her, and their compatibility together? He already uses much more flattering descriptives for her than for just about any other girl in these books, which seems to indicate that she's a pleasing sight to his eye. Once she manages to shake off the cloak of "Ron's little sister"...little Miss Ginny might just turn his head. :eyebrows:

There's evidence that Hermione has a crush on Harry, but naturally that she's a bit better at hiding it than Ginny was. If you were uncertain about whether you love interest might not retunr your feelings, and were worried about jeapordizing your friendship with him, than you might be just as hesitant.
Hermione is good at hiding a crush on Harry, you say? Hmmm...let's take a look at how Hermione hides things regarding boys & girls, shall we?

Her reaction to Harry & Ron acting like idiots about the Veela at the World Cup (GoF, 'The Quidditch World Cup'): "Honestly!", with a loud tutting noise. Her reaction here could be directed at either boy.

Her reaction to Ron's addressing the veela with a claim of inventing "a broomstick that'll reach Jupiter" (GoF, 'The Dark Mark'): "Honestly!" - - hmmm...strangely similar response...yet at this point, it is only Ron who is responding to the veela...Harry is no longer affected by them. Her reaction here is directed at Ron.

Her reaction to Ron's claim about Fleur being a veela (GoF, 'The Goblet Of Fire'): "Of course she isn't!", spoken 'tartly'. She also tells him "I don't see anyone else gaping at her like an idiot!", which turns out to be false. Harry notes other boys heads turning to follow Fleur. Yet, Hermione singles Ron out as the idiot with a 'tart' tone, and is thereafter catty towards Fleur. Reaction --> Ron.

Her reaction to Harry's off-handed comment of "they make them okay at Hogwarts" as he makes note of Cho (GoF, 'The Goblet Of Fire'): "When you've both put your eyes back in..." - - reaction could be directed at either boy, however, she knows that Harry fancies Cho, and is never catty towards her or shows any jealousy of her.

Her reaction to Ron's shallowness, regarding a Yule Ball date (GoF, 'The Unexpected Task'): She asks, 'bristling', "So basically, you're going to take the best-looking girl who'll have you, even if she's completely horrible?", then snaps at him as she sweeps off to bed. Reaction --> Ron.

Her reaction to Ron & Harry's being turned down by Fleur & Cho (GoF, 'The Unexpected Task'): "All the good looking ones taken, Ron?" Not Harry - - she doesn't speak a word to him. Her reaction singles out Ron. She is not the slightest bit interested in who Harry asked to the Ball.

Her reaction to Harry, accompanied by Parvati, at the Ball (GoF, 'The Yule Ball'): with a smile, she greets them rather enthusiastically, "Hi, Harry! Hi, Parvati!" She doesn't seem too concerned that Harry has another girl on his arm, and shows no jealousy towards Parvati at all.

Her reaction to Ron's confrontation during the Yule Brawl (GoF, 'The Yule Ball'): I think we all know this one well - - if Ron doesn't want her with another boy, she suggests that he "ask <her> before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" Hmmm...her solution to Ron's problem is that he ask her out on a date, when the occasion arises. :huh:

Her reaction to Fleur kissing Harry & Ron after the 2nd task (GoF, 'The Second Task'): No mention of any reaction to Harry receiving four - four - kisses from Fleur. But as soon as Ron receives his, she is described as "looking simply furious". I believe Rowling positioned Hermione's reaction that way for a reason. Reaction --> Ron.

Her reaction to Ron embellishing his story to Padma Patil, who "seemed to be a lot keener on Ron" after the 2nd task (GoF, 'Padfoot Returns'): she 'waspishly' embarrasses Ron in front of Padma. Perhaps to make sure nothing sparks between them? Or it could just be a coincidence that Rowling chose to use Padma in that scene. But personally, I doubt it. ;)

Her reaction to the suggestion that she & Harry are dating, as per Skeeter's article in Witch Weekly (GoF, 'Padfoot Returns'): she giggles, claims Skeeter is losing her touch, and decides the story is "a pile of old rubbish". She doesn't seem too flattered, nor too impressed by the mere suggestion, that she & Harry could be considered a couple.

Her reaction to admitting, in front of Ron & Harry, that Viktor had asked her to visit him over the summer (GoF, 'Padfoot Returns'): she blushes scarlet, then turns horribly red, and "determinedly avoided Ron's eyes". Not Harry's...she doesn't seem to give two jots what Harry thinks. But she avoids Ron's eyes. Hmmm.

Her reaction to Fleur coming across the school grounds in order to say goodbye to Harry (GoF, 'The Beginning'): no reaction to speak of. However, the moment Fleur smiled at Ron, Hermione "scowled". Again, Rowling's placement of Hermione's reaction is very telling. She scowled, simply because Fleur smiled at Ron.

Her reaction to kissing Harry on the cheek in farewell: (GoF, 'The Beginning'): no blushing, no stuttering or muttering, no awkwardness to speak of, simply "Bye, Harry!" A perfectly friendly thing to do, and indicative of her comfortable relationship with Harry. Romantically implied? Not that I can see.

Hermione's jealousy in GoF seems fairly easy to read: scowling, tutting, looking simply furious, speaking waspishly and tartly - - these are quite telling signs. Yet, throughout OotP, as Harry grows closer to Cho, we see none of this from her. We see her asking him "brightly" about his date, and then speaking "sadly" when she learns that it had been a disaster. She steers Ron away from a conversation, in order to allow Harry some alone time with Cho, even berating Ron at one point, "couldn't you tell she wanted to talk to Harry on her own?" She is quite helpful in offering Harry insight into Cho's psyche, helping him understand what Cho is feeling, and how he should handle her in her emotionally fragile state.

I don't see Hermione being all that clever at hiding a crush on Harry, simply because, IMO, it doesn't exist. Hermione's emotions are much easier to read than that...if the crush was there, I think we'd know it, plain as day. :)

Actually Hermione does not encourage nor tell Harry to date Cho--she just raises the question--soemthing perfectly natural to want to know about if she had a crush on Harry and wanted to see what he would do. She probably thought it would have occured to him already. Also, even if she was in a good mood because of getting back at Umbrigde, she's a sensitive person, and thus should have tried to make her tone less cheery when asking abotu a date that she KNEW had gone wrong, as she had seen Harry walk in long before he was supposed to, looking disgruntled.
This is speculation. Hermione had no idea his date had gone badly. For all she might have known, Cho had taken ill, and had to end their date early. But it didn't seem to concern Hermione in the least, she didn't bother to ask "where's Cho?" when Harry walked in. And if she was so interested in Harry's love life, and keen on details about his relationship with Cho...wouldn't that have occurred to her, to ask him immediately, rather than so much later on? I should think it would...

Finally, the ugly comment might have been an indication of how Hermione thinks Harry sees her, which would then support her insecurity abotu reveraling her feelings to him explicitly.
The ugly comment was very off-handed...she mentioned it as an afterthought. And what was her reaction to Harry's reply of "I don't think you're ugly"? She laughs at him, and his cluelessness about girls. And then? Her thoughts immediately turn to Ron. Hmmm....

All my opinions, of course. :)

GirlX

June 8th, 2005, 2:01 am

Ron and Hermione are destined to be together. Who Harry, Ginny, Neville and the others will end up with is something to be seen.

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 2:57 am

I am totally willing to read more articles about H/Hr to compare. I have read the ones on mugglenet already and they have not convinced me, so I'd like to read more to see if they can change my mind or not. Anyone with more links to H/Hr, please step forward.

Good idea! It's always fun to get other perspectives.

There is a good H/Hr essay on veritaserum.com called "A Heart Once Given". I found it very interesting and enlightening.

Also, the "Partners and Friends" one by Penny Linsenmayer on the Harry Potter Lexicon is a must, but you may have read that one already; it is very well-known. Mugglenet has a link to it under the Book 6, Possible Couples section.

And there are a ton of H/Hr essays at Portkey.org, but I don't know of any especially good ones off the top of my head. I've read two or three on there.

erynae

June 8th, 2005, 3:36 am

I was thinking...because people request essays so many times, wouldn't it be easy for people here if we had an area with links to all the shippy essays? I think it's a good idea, so then we can quickly refer to something, and when newbies come and ask for essays, they can just go to the thread. But we'd probably need to run it past a Prefect or a Professor first.

Rasha

June 8th, 2005, 3:41 am

I am new to the shipping thread.
It is interesting stuff and some of you are very passionate about your writings. I admire your obsessiveness! I am currently convinced that Heron is coming, but that is not why I decided to post.
I was at another thread I have been enjoying tremendously here:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=53448
And thought I would spill the beans. I think JKR may be setting us up for a Ford Anglia/Flying Motorcycle love connection. What do you think? If the Anglia has truly "gone wild", then it will be looking to find someone to settle down with. :love: Sirius' motorcycle could be the one, I mean both have so much in common. They both have rescued Harry at least once. I mean what other flying muggle contraptions are out there? So let me know what you think...does anyone else see them flying across the sky together, sidemirrors interlaced, with cute little flying ATV's buzzing behind?? :eyebrows:

cutegoblin

June 8th, 2005, 3:52 am

It´s been a long time since I last posted here (don´t remember the version number).
I´ve always felt that Ron and Hermione belong together (that´s my personal conclusion), but I wasn´t sure about Harry´s better half. I think it could be Ginny, simply because Harry heard that she "has given up on him". I´d never think of her if she was still "languishing in love" (as JKR says) for Harry. Under that scenario, if Harry had ever noticed Ginny, it would have been the most boring thing: he already knows she likes him!
But Hermione´s words changed it all. Now, if Harry becomes interested in Ginny, he´ll not know her feelings. The hero´ll suffer for love!
So I disagree with the argument that Hermione´s words about Ginny´s feelings sank H&G. On the contrary, I believe they give it some foundations.

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 4:15 am

I´ve always felt that Ron and Hermione belong together (that´s my personal conclusion), but I wasn´t sure about Harry´s better half. I think it could be Ginny, simply because Harry heard that she "has given up on him". I´d never think of her if she was still "languishing in love" (as JKR says) for Harry. Under that scenario, if Harry had ever noticed Ginny, it would have been the most boring thing: he already knows she likes him!
But Hermione´s words changed it all. Now, if Harry becomes interested in Ginny, he´ll not know her feelings. The hero´ll suffer for love!
So I disagree with the argument that Hermione´s words about Ginny´s feelings sank H&G. On the contrary, I believe they give it some foundations.

I agree with you 100%. This is the twist. JKR has made sure to leave Harry with no doubts that:

a) Ginny no longer fancies him (he was even perceptive enough to connect this with the change in her behavior around him); and
b) Ginny is not available for him to date (first she was with Michael, then implies she is interested in Dean).

Combine that with all the positive ways Harry notices Ginny throughout OotP, and you have the ideal setup for an unrequited crush in HBP. :tu:

xX_raindropXx

June 8th, 2005, 4:17 am

I must disagree, for me, for my soul, it seems to be that only Harry and Hermione can be with each other and if it were any other way the one left without the other would wither away into nothingness!

The fact that two people argue does not maker them lovers! I bicker with my friends all the time but that doesn't mean I have deep dark love obsessions about them.

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 4:23 am

:welcome: to CoS Forums, xX_raindropXx!

IThe fact that two people argue does not maker them lovers! I bicker with my friends all the time but that doesn't mean I have deep dark love obsessions about them.

Good point, but keep in mind that we are discussing literature, not real life. The "bickering couple" is a common convention in romantic literature. Our own experiences may be to the contrary, but the only opinion that matters as to whether this type of relationship will work in the HP universe is that of its creator, Jo Rowling.

jenn_iferx3

June 8th, 2005, 4:58 am

*I've always thought Ron and Hermione...*
You can just tell that he loooves her.
I mean; he gets all touchy about everything.
If someone new came to Hogwarts, maybe it would work if he liked them.
But when has anybody new come to Hogwarts???
Other than the tourny in #4... But all the same, Hermione should realize by #6 that Ron is in loooove with her!!! Awe....<33

Sienna

June 8th, 2005, 5:35 am

I don't feel that strongly about most ships but I really just don't like H/Hr because it seems to me that 100% not 95% of 'evidence', or 'clues' that are used to support that ship have nothing to do with shipping.

In my opinion, this is willful blindess but of course you are entitled to your opinion.

If you believe their arguments you have to believe that the big central question of the books is who will Harry end up with rather than the fight with Voldemort.

Once again demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of even the basics of the Harmony argument.

If this was indeed the central question I'd consider some of the clues. H(However maybe I'm wrong, maybe Harry will defeat evil by having a nice snog with the right person ).

I’d find this insulting if it wasn’t so far off base.

Seriously though when a mere mention of Hermione's name is shown as evidence in a book that only slightly involves shipping it is going to far.

Exaggeration is a typical response to an argument you otherwise do not engage with.

Jk Rowling is not always thinking about putting clues for shipping into the books as she writes; it's not a romance novel. I think any clues or foreshadowing we are given is going to be fairly obvious, as the R/Hr ship is.

I don’t find the R/Hr ship obvious. I find it weak. I find the evidence in context to be thin. And, once again, I find the assertion that JK Rowling (or any author) would somehow not be writing relationships (romantic and otherwise) as a cohesive whole but somehow separating them into distinct chunks – now I’m being romantic; now I’m not – to be completely illogical. But then, I am a writer. What would I know.

I know H/Hr shippers will respond to this by saying JK Rowling is such a good author that it is an insult to think that any foreshadowing is as simple and as clear as the clues supporting R/Hr. OK fine, even though this is obviously the argument of someone in denial, (or really paranoid of being 'tricked' by an author), lets go along with it for a minute.

No… lets not. You don’t know Harmonians at all. You are not going along with anything and I have no idea really why you insist on pretending to engage in argument. You have not grasped even the fundamentals of the H/Hr ship and insist instead on burying veiled insults beneath a very thin veneer of debate. I find your argument to be the argument of someone afraid to actually engage with the evidence but you are, as always, entitled to your opinion.

Sienna

jopotter

June 8th, 2005, 6:00 am

He certainly seems to care more for Hermione than he does for Ginny, so I think it's ridiculous when H/G shippers insult H/Hr for no being there, but then say that Harry will grow to love Ginny and realize his feeling for her in upcoming books. Wait a minute people--it's possible for Harry to realize romantic feelings for Ginny in the future, but not for Hermione?

Comparing what Harry knows of Ginny, versus what he knows of Hermione, I'd say yes, it's extremely possible for him to realize romantic feelings for Ginny in the future, and not for Hermione.

Harry & Hermione have been very close for 5+ years. They've seen each other through some grand adventures, and some terrifying, life-endangering ones as well. He's seen her at her best, her worst, her prettiest, even, and knows well how valuable she is to him, both in terms of her friendship, her loyalty, and her brains. And yet, in all these years, through all this time spent together, he has yet to feel even a hint of a romantic spark for her. Even almost losing her to a slight case of death at the end of OotP did not awaken any realizations within him...so what would it take?

Not to mention the fact that Harry simply does not seem physically attracted to Hermione. He always tends to focus on her less than attractive features (her bushy hair & overly-large front teeth are all he ever says in terms of descriptives for Hermione) in their everyday world. No, I don't believe he thinks she is ugly, as he told her so, and that's perfectly understandable. But nor does that mean he finds her irresistably pretty, and is physically attracted to her at all. The fact that he was so jaw-droppingly shocked by her pretty appearance at the Yule Ball speaks volumes. The fact that Hermione even could look pretty was enough to shock him silly. That's a huge illustration of how he simply doesn't look at her "like that", IMO.

Ginny...is a whole other story. For the first 4 years of his life at Hogwarts, he's known nothing of Ginny. Only that she is "Ron's little sister" who has always been rather taken with him, and doesn't speak around him. When has he had a chance to get to know her? So far, he hasn't. But that began to change in OotP. Ginny was given drastic development, for us, and for Harry...and as that continues on into the next book(s), who's to say that Harry won't realize a thing or two about her, including his own attraction to her, and their compatibility together? He already uses much more flattering descriptives for her than for just about any other girl in these books, which seems to indicate that she's a pleasing sight to his eye. Once she manages to shake off the cloak of "Ron's little sister"...little Miss Ginny might just turn his head. :eyebrows:

There's evidence that Hermione has a crush on Harry, but naturally that she's a bit better at hiding it than Ginny was. If you were uncertain about whether you love interest might not retunr your feelings, and were worried about jeapordizing your friendship with him, than you might be just as hesitant.

Hermione is good at hiding a crush on Harry, you say? Hmmm...let's take a look at how Hermione hides things regarding boys & girls, shall we?

Her reaction to Harry & Ron acting like idiots about the Veela at the World Cup (GoF, 'The Quidditch World Cup'): "Honestly!", with a loud tutting noise. Her reaction here could be directed at either boy.

Her reaction to Ron's addressing the veela with a claim of inventing "a broomstick that'll reach Jupiter" (GoF, 'The Dark Mark'): "Honestly!" - - hmmm...strangely similar response...yet at this point, it is only Ron who is responding to the veela...Harry is no longer affected by them. Her reaction here is directed at Ron.

Her reaction to Ron's claim about Fleur being a veela (GoF, 'The Goblet Of Fire'): "Of course she isn't!", spoken 'tartly'. She also tells him "I don't see anyone else gaping at her like an idiot!", which turns out to be false. Harry notes other boys heads turning to follow Fleur. Yet, Hermione singles Ron out as the idiot with a 'tart' tone, and is thereafter catty towards Fleur. Reaction --> Ron.

Her reaction to Harry's off-handed comment of "they make them okay at Hogwarts" as he makes note of Cho (GoF, 'The Goblet Of Fire'): "When you've both put your eyes back in..." - - reaction could be directed at either boy, however, she knows that Harry fancies Cho, and is never catty towards her or shows any jealousy of her.

Her reaction to Ron's shallowness, regarding a Yule Ball date (GoF, 'The Unexpected Task'): She asks, 'bristling', "So basically, you're going to take the best-looking girl who'll have you, even if she's completely horrible?", then snaps at him as she sweeps off to bed. Reaction --> Ron.

Her reaction to Ron & Harry's being turned down by Fleur & Cho (GoF, 'The Unexpected Task'): "All the good looking ones taken, Ron?" Not Harry - - she doesn't speak a word to him. Her reaction singles out Ron. She is not the slightest bit interested in who Harry asked to the Ball.

Her reaction to Harry, accompanied by Parvati, at the Ball (GoF, 'The Yule Ball'): with a smile, she greets them rather enthusiastically, "Hi, Harry! Hi, Parvati!" She doesn't seem too concerned that Harry has another girl on his arm, and shows no jealousy towards Parvati at all.

Her reaction to Ron's confrontation during the Yule Brawl (GoF, 'The Yule Ball'): I think we all know this one well - - if Ron doesn't want her with another boy, she suggests that he "ask <her> before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" Hmmm...her solution to Ron's problem is that he ask her out on a date, when the occasion arises. :huh:

Her reaction to Fleur kissing Harry & Ron after the 2nd task (GoF, 'The Second Task'): No mention of any reaction to Harry receiving four - four - kisses from Fleur. But as soon as Ron receives his, she is described as "looking simply furious". I believe Rowling positioned Hermione's reaction that way for a reason. Reaction --> Ron.

Her reaction to Ron embellishing his story to Padma Patil, who "seemed to be a lot keener on Ron" after the 2nd task (GoF, 'Padfoot Returns'): she 'waspishly' embarrasses Ron in front of Padma. Perhaps to make sure nothing sparks between them? Or it could just be a coincidence that Rowling chose to use Padma in that scene. But personally, I doubt it. ;)

Her reaction to the suggestion that she & Harry are dating, as per Skeeter's article in Witch Weekly (GoF, 'Padfoot Returns'): she giggles, claims Skeeter is losing her touch, and decides the story is "a pile of old rubbish". She doesn't seem too flattered, nor too impressed by the mere suggestion, that she & Harry could be considered a couple.

Her reaction to admitting, in front of Ron & Harry, that Viktor had asked her to visit him over the summer (GoF, 'Padfoot Returns'): she blushes scarlet, then turns horribly red, and "determinedly avoided Ron's eyes". Not Harry's...she doesn't seem to give two jots what Harry thinks. But she avoids Ron's eyes. Hmmm.

Her reaction to Fleur coming across the school grounds in order to say goodbye to Harry (GoF, 'The Beginning'): no reaction to speak of. However, the moment Fleur smiled at Ron, Hermione "scowled". Again, Rowling's placement of Hermione's reaction is very telling. She scowled, simply because Fleur smiled at Ron.

Her reaction to kissing Harry on the cheek in farewell: (GoF, 'The Beginning'): no blushing, no stuttering or muttering, no awkwardness to speak of, simply "Bye, Harry!" A perfectly friendly thing to do, and indicative of her comfortable relationship with Harry. Romantically implied? Not that I can see.

Hermione's jealousy in GoF seems fairly easy to read: scowling, tutting, looking simply furious, speaking waspishly and tartly - - these are quite telling signs. Yet, throughout OotP, as Harry grows closer to Cho, we see none of this from her. We see her asking him "brightly" about his date, and then speaking "sadly" when she learns that it had been a disaster. She steers Ron away from a conversation, in order to allow Harry some alone time with Cho, even berating Ron at one point, "couldn't you tell she wanted to talk to Harry on her own?" She is quite helpful in offering Harry insight into Cho's psyche, helping him understand what Cho is feeling, and how he should handle her in her emotionally fragile state.

I don't see Hermione being all that clever at hiding a crush on Harry, simply because, IMO, it doesn't exist. Hermione's emotions are much easier to read than that...if the crush was there, I think we'd know it, plain as day. :)

Actually Hermione does not encourage nor tell Harry to date Cho--she just raises the question--soemthing perfectly natural to want to know about if she had a crush on Harry and wanted to see what he would do. She probably thought it would have occured to him already. Also, even if she was in a good mood because of getting back at Umbrigde, she's a sensitive person, and thus should have tried to make her tone less cheery when asking abotu a date that she KNEW had gone wrong, as she had seen Harry walk in long before he was supposed to, looking disgruntled.

This is speculation. Hermione had no idea his date had gone badly. For all she might have known, Cho had taken ill, and had to end their date early. But it didn't seem to concern Hermione in the least, she didn't bother to ask "where's Cho?" when Harry walked in. And if she was so interested in Harry's love life, and keen on details about his relationship with Cho...wouldn't that have occurred to her, to ask him immediately, rather than so much later on? I should think it would...

Finally, the ugly comment might have been an indication of how Hermione thinks Harry sees her, which would then support her insecurity abotu reveraling her feelings to him explicitly.

The ugly comment was very off-handed...she mentioned it as an afterthought. And what was her reaction to Harry's reply of "I don't think you're ugly"? She laughs at him, and his cluelessness about girls. And then? Her thoughts immediately turn to Ron. Hmmm....

All my opinions, of course. :)

Great post IceKat! It's very obvious when Hermione is jealous. She has always shown her emotions clearly - when she's angry, sad, frustrated, happy and yes, also when she's jealous. It's not as complicated at some would like to think.

HBP come one, come on!

Nero

June 8th, 2005, 6:04 am

:welcome: to CoS Forums, xX_raindropXx!

Good point, but keep in mind that we are discussing literature, not real life. The "bickering couple" is a common convention in romantic literature. Our own experiences may be to the contrary, but the only opinion that matters as to whether this type of relationship will work in the HP universe is that of its creator, Jo Rowling.

Hello Shmink!

speaking of conventions there are many to fit Harry and Hermione i.e. Hero get's the girl, leading male role loves leading female etc.

as for a Heron ship i would seriously not care if it ended up a Heron ending...there is canon evidence as there is for Harmony but Chocolate i would be very unhappy i guess i haven't fully accepted that she's erm what was it? oh yeah "matured" but i really don't consider the fact that Ginny has been w/ other guys to be evidence towards a Chocolate ending (nothing you've said i'm just bringing up something i heard alot of Chocolateers saying) i believe that the sole reason Ginny's er LI is displayed is only in advancement to the subplot. we hear about things about Roger Davies' and his girlfriends and i believe the LI thing is to do nothing more than to advance the subplot. i've never really heard canon evidence as to why a Chocolate romance might sail so i was wondering if i could find it with you.

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 6:26 am

Hello Shmink!

speaking of conventions there are many to fit Harry and Hermione i.e. Hero get's the girl, leading male role loves leading female etc.

as for a Heron ship i would seriously not care if it ended up a Heron ending...there is canon evidence as there is for Harmony but Chocolate i would be very unhappy i guess i haven't fully accepted that she's erm what was it? oh yeah "matured" but i really don't consider the fact that Ginny has been w/ other guys to be evidence towards a Chocolate ending (nothing you've said i'm just bringing up something i heard alot of Chocolateers saying) i believe that the sole reason Ginny's er LI is displayed is only in advancement to the subplot. we hear about things about Roger Davies' and his girlfriends and i believe the LI thing is to do nothing more than to advance the subplot. i've never really heard canon evidence as to why a Chocolate romance might sail so i was wondering if i could find it with you.

Hi, Nero! The salient thing about Ginny and her love life is that it is not at all necessary to the plot. Why does Ginny's love life get so much attention? Why does Jo squeeze in all these unimportant details about who Ginny is dating if she's just going to end up with a secondary character? The storyline of Ginny's crush on Harry is a plot thread that has been touched upon in every book since CoS. That little scene at the end of OotP with Harry being over Cho, Ron saying he needs someone more cheerful, Ginny breaking up with Michael, Ron dropping hints all over the place, and then Ginny stating she's chosen Dean, are what I see as a setup for this storyline to continue in HBP -- it has not yet been resolved.

If you're interested in canon evidence for Chocolate, check out the Harry/Ginny essay at Madam Puddifoot's, "What's Life Without a Little Romance?" -- the link is in IceKat's signature (she wrote it!). It is very thorough.

The most thorough H/G essay I've read can be found here (http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=hglovered) - but I'm warning you, it's extremely long. It took me about an hour to read it.

BballPlaya05

June 8th, 2005, 6:30 am

same here...i think that there is evidence supporting harmony, and i could even see maybe some cannon for heron, i dont know. but the sole ship that i think i really just fail to comprehend is the chocolate ship...in my opinion, almost no cannon, but thats just an opinion...

by the way, someone had once told me that the "buckbeak theory" had been completely talked/argued through a couple months ago..before i got here. so i was just wondering, was there any final conclusions made on that? or would anyone want to discuss that again?

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 6:36 am

This is sort of random and I don't feel like coughing up a wad of canon to support this, but I think of Ron and Hermione both as Harry's sidekicks, and they both, at times, provide comic relief. There are so many humorous descriptions of Hermione throughout the series that I get the feeling JKR is affectionately poking fun at her.

by the way, someone had once told me that the "buckbeak theory" had been completely talked/argued through a couple months ago..before i got here. so i was just wondering, was there any final conclusions made on that? or would anyone want to discuss that again?

I remember that discussion, but I didn't actively take part in it. The only symbolism I personally see with Buckbeak is the "impossible" rescue of Sirius, but it's an interesting theory. I doubt that anyone came to an agreement; you know how stubborn we shippers are! :D

BballPlaya05

June 8th, 2005, 6:41 am

shmink: o i'm so sorry..about the sidekick and comic relief thing, i did that just for today because my friend and i got into this talk about it...i just put that there to tease her. sorry for the mistake!

yea i thought the buckbeak theory was an interesting one, too...mostly though just because of the fact that jkr already uses a lot of symbolism in her writing, along with meanings of different things...

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 6:43 am

shmink: o i'm so sorry..about the sidekick and comic relief thing, i did that just for today because my friend and i got into this talk about it...i just put that there to tease her. sorry for the mistake!

Oh, it's OK, I didn't think it was a mistake. I wasn't offended by it. It just made me think...

Nagini04

June 8th, 2005, 6:49 am

Ron and Hermione, that's a given. There's all sorts of clues all over the books, and even the movies. And I think it will be Harry and Luna. Sure, she's a weirdo, but she believed Harry when nobody else would, and I think Harry will remember that. She made him feel good, like he wasn't going nuts, when everyone else, other than those closely related to The Order were calling him a nutter before even hearing his side of the story.

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 6:58 am

Hi, Nagini04!

Agree with you on Ron & Hermione. As for Luna, I see her as a great character with potential to be a good friend to Harry, as well as lots of humorous interaction with Ron and Hermione, but IMO she just isn't written as a hero's love interest. Straggly, dirty-blond hair; protruberant, mad eyes; and not needing to blink as often as normal humans -- just don't cut it for me. She's most likely there as a combination of comic relief and spirituality, with her understanding of death and the afterlife her most important reason for existence.

Nagini04

June 8th, 2005, 7:02 am

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 7:06 am

Hiya Shmink! cute name!
Yeah, I see what you mean, but we can't ignore that there is a connection between Harry and Luna, one that he has with nobody else. Maybe it's not love, maybe it's just that both Harry and Luna are often the "butt" of jokes, then again, we can't know for sure... nor can we know what that could escalade to.

Oh, I definitely think they have a connection; it's just that they don't seem to have anything else in common. As JKR said with regard to Neville/Luna, being outsiders isn't necessarily enough to foster true love. But we'll see! :)

Oh, and thanks for the compliment! The Vanishing Shmink is a creature I invented last Halloween -- long story, and probably quite disturbing at that. :lol:

Corbin Dallas

June 8th, 2005, 7:07 am

Hiya Shmink! cute name!
Yeah, I see what you mean, but we can't ignore that there is a connection between Harry and Luna, one that he has with nobody else. Maybe it's not love, maybe it's just that both Harry and Luna are often the "butt" of jokes, then again, we can't know for sure... nor can we know what that could escalade to.
Actually you can guess pretty closely in my opinon if you look at the nature of their connection, which is death; both lost parents, both heard voices behind the viel, the thestrals. Luna being the awesome character she is hasn't really shown an interest in Harry that way, she seems more into Harry's story than Harry himself. Which I expect from the daughter of the Editor of the Quibbler.
Cheers

muggleview

June 8th, 2005, 8:42 am

Shmink, have been enjoying your siggy, so before too late, I would like to say: Great drawings!
It's part of Jo Rowling intention to give us a surprise pairing, if we interpret her reference to "Emma" correctly. As the final pairing in Emma is not resolved until the last chapters of the book, we have to wait until the final 2 books in HP series to see how Harry's romance is developed to finality.
Interestingly, as Shmink already mentioned, Ginny's life story has been tagged along throughout all 5 books. We know her family, her private thoughts (thanks to Tom Riddle), her physical weakness (falling asleep, having cold), her hobby (watching and playing Quidditch), her love life (Yule Ball partner, dates), etc. in more detail than Hermione! Nowhere can we privy Hermione's diary, but Ginny's diary was opened for the readers.
Additionally we can see in the movies, not all characters appeared in all 4 movies. Prof. Trelawney only appeared in movie 3, although we were introduced since book 2. Cedric and Cho will only appear from movie 4 on, although we knew them since book 3. Even Parvati Patil is played by a different actress in Movie 4. However, Bonnie Wright is always there for a very short appearance as Ginny Weasley in all 4 movies so far. In movie 1 she only said: "Good luck!", in movie 2 she was one of the main characters, but in movie 3, she only appeared in the Flight of Fat Lady incident. We will see her dancing in Yule Ball scene in GOF movie.
Ginny is one female character that Jo Rowling insists to show in all books and movies although her role seems insignificant.

As always, CD's point is very sharp: Luna is indeed more interested in (unusual) information than personality. She is ignorant about Sirius, although his photos is everywhere since his escape from Azkaban.

hermy_weasley2

June 8th, 2005, 10:56 am

Sure, she's a weirdo, but she believed Harry when nobody else would, and I think Harry will remember that. She made him feel good, like he wasn't going nuts, when everyone else, other than those closely related to The Order were calling him a nutter before even hearing his side of the story.

I think he's little weary about Luna believing him. The books are written through his eyes, so it's the description of her with his bias that makes us think she's weird. It mentions that he's glad to be believed by someone who didn't have radishes hanging from their ears and that he didn't know if he felt comforted by the fact that Luna could see the thestrals too. His feelings toward don't change until the very end when she tells him about losing all her stuff and then it's called pity. Like you said, it something other than what he feels towards the other female characterrs, but it's nothing to build a relationship on. The only other character he is said to pity, really, is Nevile right after Dumbledore tells him about the Longbottoms.

cerussite

June 8th, 2005, 11:46 am

I think he's little weary about Luna believing him. The books are written through his eyes, so it's the description of her with his bias that makes us think she's weird. It mentions that he's glad to be believed by someone who didn't have radishes hanging from their ears and that he didn't know if he felt comforted by the fact that Luna could see the thestrals too. His feelings toward don't change until the very end when she tells him about losing all her stuff and then it's called pity. Like you said, it something other than what he feels towards the other female characterrs, but it's nothing to build a relationship on. The only other character he is said to pity, really, is Nevile right after Dumbledore tells him about the Longbottoms.

And one has to ask if she believed him because he is a friend and she wanted to offer him support or if it was because no one else believed his story.

Luna likes to believe impossible things, it is part of her character.

Did she believe him because she liked him, because she wanted him to like her, because he was a friend who needed support or was it just that his story was believed by so few. At most I would say it is a combination of support and that no one else believed him, but I get the feeling it has more at that stage to do with the story not being belived by any one else.

However I will add that by the end of the book (had it been an issue then) I would say it is definitly both support and the impossible.

MRSTJ1

June 8th, 2005, 1:38 pm

Emma

June 8th, 2005, 2:11 pm

Sienna is now banned for 10 days from posting in the Love Thread...The member will be able to start posting again on June 18, 2005

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 2:26 pm

amberthehun

June 8th, 2005, 2:28 pm

Hello all! I don't really consider myself a hard-core "shipper," except of course *looks down at sig* haha. But I've recently started reading through the posts in this thread, just out of curiosity, and firstly, I have to say I'm very glad that most of you guys and dolls seem to be very polite and amicable towards one another, even if you don't necessarily agree. Big thumbs up for that. Bickering about ships is probably what's kept me away from most posts and communities (not here, of course) dealing with these things.

So, with that out of the way, I thought I'd give you my perspective. (Keeping in mind that I don't really think a whole lot about ships)

As many of you have said, I didn't notice any feelings whatsoever between any of the trio until GoF. Unless, of course, you count Ginny's crush on Harry earlier on. Now, in GoF, there seemed to be many clues, and then of course the Yule Ball Brawl which led me to believe that there is something at work between Hermione and Ron. The reason I personally saw that was, when I was around that age, 13-15, people who seemed to like each other acted just like Hermione and Ron. They were always antagonizing each other, trying to get a rise, trying to feel out what one another really feels etc. etc. I know you all have covered these things many times! ^_^

Perhaps it is just because of my own early teenage experiences that led me to believe this, but I also felt much tension and noticed the little hints and scenes JKR wrote. And this is coming from someone who reads these books not looking for things like that.

I didn't know about the online "shipping wars" until pretty recently, so I had no clue as to the other perspectives people take on the possible relationships within the HP series. I haven't read through too much of the literature out there defending the cases, and I tend to just wait to see where JKR is going to take us. But, honestly, a lot of you present some pretty convincing cases of relationships I had never even thought of!

Even though I'm still under the impression that Ron and Hermione are the only ones that JKR has really hinted at (except, of course, the obvious early Ginny crush and the whole Harry/Cho thing =P), I wouldn't be at all suprised that any of the ships any of you have pointed out would happen. I have to remind myself that these characters are still teenagers, with hormones, moods, and feelings running wild, which could lead to a change at any moment. I've been there. I remember doing complete 180's during my day, and even found myself at that time (and haha recently) ending up liking someone I never ever dreamed I would think of that way.

Ahhh... sorry the long-winded, go-nowhere post! ^_^;;

And, again, bravo on the well-thought out, mature posts I've seen so far on this thread, no matter which side you're on. Cheers!

Lieke

June 8th, 2005, 2:52 pm

Bballplaya05: even though I'm a chocolate and heron shipper: love your siggy :) !!!! Dan and Emma holding hands! Lovely! :evil:

It's part of Jo Rowling intention to give us a surprise pairing, if we interpret her reference to "Emma" correctly. As the final pairing in Emma is not resolved until the last chapters of the book, we have to wait until the final 2 books in HP series to see how Harry's romance is developed to finality.

I had no idea that she referred to Emma! Where have I been? Can you tell where I can find the quote?

Another interpretation then (I haven't read the whole thread (ofcourse) so I'mn not sure if I'm repeating stuff...):

In Emma, she and her very good friend Mr. Knightley eventually find themselves in love with each other. Two (best) friends falling in love..... supports Heron and Harmony (and perhaps chocolate) actually! In the future it might support Chocolate, Signs and Moonlight aswell, if the sextet continues in book 6.

It also can be interpreted as: all of the sudden falling with someone who was right in front of your nose all the time but you didn't really see that person as a potential LI.
Now I would definately put Heron, Harmony and chocolate in that category. And if you're interested, may more ships aswell.

So eventually it all comes down to... uhm,... Let's read book 6!!!!!

cerussite

June 8th, 2005, 2:54 pm

As someone who cannot yet rule out Moonlight, I have to point out two things:

Luna does not just say dumb things, unless her direct answer to Hermione when Hermione insulted her father was dumb.
Unless her comforting words to Harrr that he was not going mad were dumb.
Unless her going up to him outside the greenhouse and telling him she believed in him was dumb, or unless her coming up with the idea to ride thestrals to the MoM was dumb.
And after the fight, she is the last girl standing. Ahe gives Harry a clear, consise overview of what happened while thekids were seperated, and she didn't sound dumb at the bulletin board. She's a Ravenclaw. By definition, she cnna't be stupid.
She may have eccentric ideas, but not everything she says is dumb. That's an exaggeration, as is the idea that Harry finds her revolting, which came up on the last thread.
He doesn't understand her when he meets her, but after he gets to know her, he is her friend. Theya re connected by the thestrals, and tha'ts exactly what happened with them. Haryr thought they were weird but after they helepd him, he wondered how he could have ever thought hem ugly.

Thsi ships still has possibilites. I'm not sure of it, but I can't rule it out. You don't meet everyone who matters to you when you're eleven.

I think when people were commenting about Luna's dumb comments it was to do with Redmoon and how Ron said to surius that 'that's the stupidest thing he'd ever heard and that's including all the things Luna has said'

something like that anyway, I don't have an exact quote.

It is irrelevent what we think of a character, we may think Luna is the best thing since sliced bread but that is not an argument (it may be the reason why some people ship certain characters but it doesn't make it an argument). Ron obviously (from that comment above) does not appreciate what Luna says and her ideas, sure it may change in the future but for now he does not. Whether or not we do doesn't really make a difference.

Personally I like Luna, I think she is 'out there' so to speak but she is great anyway. I don't think there is anything wrong with her being a little nuts. It is just part of her character and part of what makes her great. Even though I think she is great, I have yet to see anything that would indicate Harry sees anything in her (laughing with her, common interests and activities and things)

(ps it is generally excepted, in England at least, that you are only eccentric if you are rich and/or famous, otherwise you are just plain nuts :evil: that was just a bit of fun by the way)

Not saying that won't change though, and if it does then I will ship it too or jump ships...but until then.

chappie

June 8th, 2005, 2:59 pm

wow,

there sure is a lot of literature here, so i'll just throw in my 2 cents:

i'm convinced (and have been for a while), of Ron and Hermione. Ron's sheer disappointment at not being able to go to the yule ball with Hermione is a sign of jealousy and how much he wants her. he even tells her this (though neither of them know it) when he argues with her in the common room afterwards; a display of expectation and hope. Hermione mirrors Ron's feelings. although she constantly fusses over both of them, it is to Ron most of her affection is shown (especially when it came to the crunch for Buckbeak, and Ron's first quidditch match). finally, it is Harry who proves this as-yet relationship. not once in five years has he hinted at feeling the same way towards Hermione as he did Cho. the yule ball doesn't count - it was a first for everybody to see her in that light. he may love her platonically as a friend -as Jo has suggested- but that is how good mates feel.

so there.

Ron and Hermione, and why i think so.

as for Harry's fortunes? in think Ginny. but i don't have as much psychobabble to back that up :P :D

......catch you on the flipside.

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 3:06 pm

Thsi ships still has possibilites. I'm not sure of it, but I can't rule it out. You don't meet everyone who matters to you when you're eleven.

This is absolutely true. However, I am leery of arguments that treat the series as real life, rather than literature. In literature, the hero's love interest is introduced early in the story, so that the reader can become emotionally invested with that character on a par with the hero. Using this logic, Harmony makes more sense to me than Moonlight (but not by much :)).

:welcome:, chappie!

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 3:07 pm

(ps it is generally excepted, in England at least, that you are only eccentric if you are rich and/or famous, otherwise you are just plain nuts that was just a bit of fun by the way)

Ok I know its a little OT but I learned that lesson from this man who lives in the woods near my college. He has rigged this transport system through the trees and goes from tree to tree carving them to look like people (sort of) he has also chopped down trees and carved them to look like people and then buried their heads in the ground and their feet sticking up. Kids love to go look at it, b/c it SERIOUSLY is ripped from the scenes of a horror movie, but if he catches you looking he'll shoot at you. And that's when I learned that there is a very distinct line between an artist and a crazy person. LOL

But seriously....people are considered nuts until credit is given to their idea. It's not reflective of the person unless it is proven false. Think Harry and V! People thought he was stark raving mad, but after the skeeter article the offer support. And I'm sure with the announcement that he's back from the ministry Harry will be getting more owls of apology and support. However if V never turned up, then Harry would have gone on being considered nuts. So here's hoping for crumple horned snorfblats (or whatever they are) which will clear Lunas loony name :)

MPPMarauderGirl

June 8th, 2005, 3:18 pm

Many non-Chocolate supports have the opinion that Ginny's love life is not important, even though it's shaddowed upon. Red Monster did an incredible job in her essay to smash this down. The link to this essay can be found here (as I'm not sure if I can post excerpts of it, since it is not mine): http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=hglove

It discusses the significance of Ginny's love life in the story, how the build-up forshadowes romance, and how Ginny's not being set-up for a secondary character. I would discuss these points, but not only do I have to go, I'd just be copying what Red Monster said, and you all could just read it first-hand and get the same argument. It really makes sense if you read it.

And PS: It's A LOT shorter than the previous link I gave you guys. Have fun and check it out! ;)

cerussite

June 8th, 2005, 3:38 pm

Ok I know its a little OT but I learned that lesson from this man who lives in the woods near my college. He has rigged this transport system through the trees and goes from tree to tree carving them to look like people (sort of) he has also chopped down trees and carved them to look like people and then buried their heads in the ground and their feet sticking up. Kids love to go look at it, b/c it SERIOUSLY is ripped from the scenes of a horror movie, but if he catches you looking he'll shoot at you. And that's when I learned that there is a very distinct line between an artist and a crazy person. LOL

But seriously....people are considered nuts until credit is given to their idea. It's not reflective of the person unless it is proven false. Think Harry and V! People thought he was stark raving mad, but after the skeeter article the offer support. And I'm sure with the announcement that he's back from the ministry Harry will be getting more owls of apology and support. However if V never turned up, then Harry would have gone on being considered nuts. So here's hoping for crumple horned snorfblats (or whatever they are) which will clear Lunas loony name :)

I don't want her to be cleared, I like her just the way she is. It's funny, and she reminds me of a friend of mine. I was always very intersted in reading about the paranormal and stuff, but I have always remained of two minds about it... there is some convincing evidence for and some agianst. This friend of mine would just jump at anything that was 'out there' and believe it whole haertedly. We would get into endless debates about it, it was great...

And as JKR said about luna 'she likes to believe a hundred impossible things before breakfast' or something like that. So if they were proven she would probably forget about them and find something else imposiible to believe, it seems an integral part of her character. :tu:

Many non-Chocolate supports have the opinion that Ginny's love life is not important, even though it's shaddowed upon. Red Monster did an incredible job in her essay to smash this down. The link to this essay can be found here (as I'm not sure if I can post excerpts of it, since it is not mine): http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=hglove

It discusses the significance of Ginny's love life in the story, how the build-up forshadowes romance, and how Ginny's not being set-up for a secondary character. I would discuss these points, but not only do I have to go, I'd just be copying what Red Monster said, and you all could just read it first-hand and get the same argument. It really makes sense if you read it.

And PS: It's A LOT shorter than the previous link I gave you guys. Have fun and check it out! ;)

I believe red monster gives blanket permission to debate it, at least she did on her other long essay.

I read that essay to, Ginny's love life is being developed in a similar way to Harry's, is that the one? Some times the hospital network has problems with certain sites and won't let me open them.

Redmonster is great at writing these essays. In the long one, if I remember correctly she didn't even get into symbolism. It was just all about the books.

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 3:38 pm

I don't want her to be cleared, I like her just the way she is. It's funny, and she reminds me of a friend of mine. I was always very intersted in reading about the paranormal and stuff, but I have always remained of two minds about it... there is some convincing evidence for and some agianst. This friend of mine would just jump at anything that was 'out there' and believe it whole haertedly. We would get into endless debates about it, it was great...

And as JKR said about luna 'she likes to believe a hundred impossible things before breakfast' or something like that. So if they were proven she would probably forget about them and find something else imposiible to believe, it seems an integral part of her character. :tu:

I think there is going to be some clearing of her name whether we like it or not, and I don't think that its going to hurt her likability. We see at the end of OotP Hermione softening towards Luna and refraining from criticizing her. As hermione softens and becomes more accepting i think we'll see the anti-Hermione move towards the middle as well, learning to rely on tangible facts more. If Luna is the mirror image of Hermione....(everything opposite or backwards) then it would work out that any step Hermy takes towards Luna, Luna would step closer to Hermy.

I don't think they are traveling parelle and any step hermy takes towards Luna will result in a step away from hermy, as that would pretty much bump Luna out of the story. If Hermy settles into Luna being a part of the group and Luna then tries to push Hermy away Luna, Harry and Ron will more likely not include her if she makes hermy pissy.

RitaSkeeter

June 8th, 2005, 3:40 pm

How many people think this will happen??

redhanded

June 8th, 2005, 3:51 pm

Firstly, I like Luna as a character and I think her eccentricity is great, and, occasionally, useful - her connection with death helped to ease Harry's burden, neither am I suggesting that she is *always* somewhere in the realms of unreality, she is capable of sensible suggestion re, the thestrals and blowing up Jupiter at the MoM

However,

It has to be admitted that for the majority of her life Luna lives in a world of Crumple horned Snorcacks and Nargles, she spends much of her time as a loner and seems to have comparatively little social understanding, she stares inappropriately and doesn't pick up on other behavioural cues, aside from the fact that while I think Harry may come to value her as a friend, I don't think these would be the qualities he looked for in a partner, what about Luna herself? Most of the time she seems above and beyond the mundane role of dating and social interaction unless she has to be. She's very content in herself, and I just don't think she'd be romantically interested in Harry, Ron or anyone else, unless she met somebody new that was able to negotiate *** fanciful world she inhabits.

How many people think this will happen??

I'd really like to see Ginny and Harry happen, just because I think they'd work well together and are compatible personality wise, but I don't think there's really enough convincing canon for Harry's feelings for Ginny as yet.

cerussite

June 8th, 2005, 4:09 pm

How many people think this will happen??

if recent polls are anything to go by quite a few.

May I ask if you follow any ships, what are they and why?

Madamesaprks I have that post you made on the last thread saved in my favourites just so I can read it every now and then when I am bored. That was even funnier than Ron falling down and squashing Harry in the geometry of shipping. I tried to reply to you but you box was full, lets just say I agree :tu:

I'm not sure if Luna's character will change that much. Hermione didn't change her view of Luna or her ideas, she was just a bit politer in not calling it rubbish or anything like that. Hermione can be a bit in your face with her opinions, and for once she held back here. It says something for Hermione's character I think though... maybe it is the beginning of her 'lightening up'. Who knows, I guess we will have to wait and see.

Arrrgghh the waiting is doing me in, how many of you had to do this for the other books (I finished GoF about a week before OotP came out so no lond wait there)

ETA Excuse my rudeness, Welcome to the love thread RitaSkeeta :welcome:

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 4:17 pm

How many people think this will happen??

Well, I think my opinion is obvious... :D But I don't expect them to get together until Book 7, or MAYBE the end of Book 6 at the very earliest. Depends on the overall plot. I think Book 6 will be the one in which Harry develops clear feelings for Ginny, but he'll think she's unattainable. :)

Oh, and :welcome: to the Love Thread!

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 4:17 pm

Madamesaprks I have that post you made on the last thread saved in my favourites just so I can read it every now and then when I am bored. That was even funnier than Ron falling down and squashing Harry in the geometry of shipping. I tried to reply to you but you box was full, lets just say I agree

Which post? The one about Hermy having "an inate sense of direction" which pulls her to Harry. I got an email that said my owl inbox was full so I couldn't receive anymore, but I went to empty it out...and it wasnt full...not the received or sents...so i dont know what the deal was :(

cerussite

June 8th, 2005, 4:26 pm

Which post? The one about Hermy having "an inate sense of direction" which pulls her to Harry. I got an email that said my owl inbox was full so I couldn't receive anymore, but I went to empty it out...and it wasnt full...not the received or sents...so i dont know what the deal was :(

Yes the amusing one, scorned future lover and all that. Maybe you should speak to a mod, they might be able to help with your mailbox or point you in the right direction. I'm afraid I know very little...

errr on topic

How many think that Harrys LI will become the Heroine for the Harry Potter series.

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 4:29 pm

How many think that Harrys LI will become the Heroine for the Harry Potter series.

What do you mean by "herione?" I don't think any other character will gain equal importance to Harry, but his LI might do something heroic. She'll need some spunk to be with him, no doubt about that.

It's weird how our signature pictures are so similar... I drew mine before I ever saw yours (I think?).

Ariane2

June 8th, 2005, 4:34 pm

How many think that Harrys LI will become the Heroine for the Harry Potter series.

Um, I don't think whomever Harry loves, be it Ginny, Luna, Hermione, or someone else, will be the heroine of the series. Harry is the hero, and the series is about him. There isn't going to be a heroine. That's not to say Harry's LI won't do anything heroic, but she won't end up being on the same level of importance than Harry.

cerussite

June 8th, 2005, 4:35 pm

What do you mean by "herione?" I don't think any other character will gain equal importance to Harry, but his LI might do something heroic. She'll need some spunk to be with him, no doubt about that.

It's weird how our signature pictures are so similar... I drew mine before I ever saw yours (I think).

Well no, as the books are called Harry Potter

However we have discussed whether or not Hermione is the Heroine of Harry Potter. I don't feel she is.

I am not sure whether or not I have this right, some one like BanduraQueen or some one who knows more about this may be able to answer correctly.

But for me it would at least mean being with Harry in the finale, possibly helping when he defeats Voldemort, and/or her role being essential to his defeat.

That does not mean she taught him the accio charm etc, it needs to be more something only she, as his LI, or because of something only she can do, that no one else can.

Understand....not sure I do ;)

I'm afraid I cannot claim ownership of that picture it was borrowed from a site called Edgeworlds. Anneth has some fabulous work (not just shippy, in fact mostly not) you should look it up. But thanks for reminding me I always meant ot put a link in my signiture but kept forgeting :) I like your pic to :tu: :tu: I love collecting art work onto my hard drive and I think I have picked up a couple of yours :)

hermy_girl

June 8th, 2005, 4:36 pm

Omg! Ron totally likes Hermine, weather she likes him or not I don't know. When they were making the second movie JK had to ask them to make sure that they put in some extreemly suddle hints. Like when Hermione was unpetrified she ran up and hugged Harry in front of everyone because she had nothing to hide, but her and Ron hesitated and then just shook hands because he didn't want anyone to see that he liked Hermione!!! Not to minchine in the third movie that when harry went to pet Buckbeak Hermionie grabbed Ron's hand just as a friend and Ron was totaly shook and nervous. He also is jeallous of anyone who she likes. And when Hermione kissed him to distract him from the "WEASLY IS OUR KING" badges he was in awe and kept touching the spot she kissed.
I want to know who Hermione likes!
If anyone disagrees post back

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 4:42 pm

But for me it would at least mean being with Harry and possibly helping when he defeats Voldemort, and/or her role being essential to his defeat.

Then no, I don't think she will be. She may help him discover something essential to defeat LV, but in the end I believe Harry's going to be on his own, with the support of all who love him.

I'm afraid I cannot claim ownership of that picture it was borrowed from a site called Edgeworlds. Anneth has some fabulous work (not just shippy, in fact mostley not) you should look it up. But thanks for reminding me I always meant ot put a link in my signiture but kept forgeting :) I like your pic to :tu: :tu: I love collecting art work onto my hard drive and I think I have picked up a couple of yours :)

Thanks! I'm flattered that you like my art; sometimes I think I go overboard with the H/G stuff. I'd love a link to Anneth's work, when you can find it.

cerussite

June 8th, 2005, 4:56 pm

Then no, I don't think she will be. She may help him discover something essential to defeat LV, but in the end I believe Harry's going to be on his own, with the support of all who love him.

I am of two minds, I believe it is possible but not necessarily probable. Usually I just think romance will all remain a subplot, and indeed it could remain a subplot and just have her do something only she can do either because she is his LI or because of something else.

However I don't think this will happen, not until I see a little more evidence suggesting otherwise anyway...but I needed to say something on topic above :)

Thanks! I'm flattered that you like my art; sometimes I think I go overboard with the H/G stuff. I'd love a link to Anneth's work, when you can find it.

The link is now in my siggy enjoy...visit even if you don't like H/G there are only 2 or three pics depicting that anyway. I would also suggest visiting this gallery on elfwood
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/fanq/g/o/goldseven2/goldseven2.html

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/g/o/goldseven/goldseven.html

HERmeOWNknee

June 8th, 2005, 5:01 pm

ron and hermione
ginny and harry
lavander and seamus
neville and a new girl
cho and roger
marrieta and michael
colin and luna
denis and gabrielle
dean and padam
ernie and hannah
percy and penelope
bill and fleur
charlie and tonks
anthony and susan
draco and pansy
justin and parvati
hagrid and maxine

redhanded

June 8th, 2005, 5:11 pm

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 5:17 pm

Cerrussite....you seem to be touching on the biggest point I wonder on.

Harry seems to have every other type of love at this point. Love of family (his parents, mom's protection, the weasleys and Sirius), love of a friend, love for someone you take care of (like a parents love, or a pet owners love...in harry's case hedwig), are there other types you can think of besides romantic?

SO my problem arises when I start thinking about the role romantic love plays for harry. We know he'll have a little romance in HBP....and so I wonder, when he has romantic love, will he now decide to put it on the back burner so as to protect the girl from V after seeing what V does to people who Harry loves a lot i.e. Sirius...or will he go full out into trying to fill himself up with as much love as possible so that he will be best able to fight V (as love seems to be the force that V despise soo much.)

Any thoughts?

Nero

June 8th, 2005, 5:19 pm

Hi, Nero! The salient thing about Ginny and her love life is that it is not at all necessary to the plot. Why does Ginny's love life get so much attention? Why does Jo squeeze in all these unimportant details about who Ginny is dating if she's just going to end up with a secondary character? The storyline of Ginny's crush on Harry is a plot thread that has been touched upon in every book since CoS. That little scene at the end of OotP with Harry being over Cho, Ron saying he needs someone more cheerful, Ginny breaking up with Michael, Ron dropping hints all over the place, and then Ginny stating she's chosen Dean, are what I see as a setup for this storyline to continue in HBP -- it has not yet been resolved.

If you're interested in canon evidence for Chocolate, check out the Harry/Ginny essay at Madam Puddifoot's, "What's Life Without a Little Romance?" -- the link is in IceKat's signature (she wrote it!). It is very thorough.

The most thorough H/G essay I've read can be found here (http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=hglovered) - but I'm warning you, it's extremely long. It took me about an hour to read it.

thanks for the links

wait....what does Ron have to do w/ it? just because he thinks Harry's the best mate for his little sister? that would be like Dudley casting strange looks at Hermione thinking that she's the best for Harry. other then that i'm not sure of Ron "dropping hints all over the place" and the statement before where Ron says something about someone being Cheerier could be directed at anybody and Ginny isn't neccessarily cheerful (omg harry i got possessed to!) your right it's not necessary to the plot but it is necessary to the SUBplot. i don't even remember hearing about Ginny in Book 3 and i don't consider anything from books 1 or 2 as clues or hints (duh they're eleven!) and the thing w/ Ginny i don't understand is she is apparently "very taken" w/ Harry when they haven't even really met. she doesn't know him but she is "very taken" so she either liked his Looks/Fame/Money or whatever i don't know but then all of a sudden we're supposed to look at Ginny as a LI for Harry? i don't think so. i don't see her more mature just b/c she dated other guys .

Lunna

June 8th, 2005, 5:29 pm

Hello everyone,

I really don't think that this love triangle is a matter of whom it is that Hermione likes, but believe that Harry will have the last say.

First I think everyone will agree that Ron shows jealousy towards Hermione. Hermione and Ron are always arguing, which can be interpreted as a love/hate relationship, but that obvious isn't it???
Second;Hermione/Harry show friendship.....very strong friendship, Hermione is always supporting Harry in everyway and Harry has always stood up for Hermione , even with Cho whom he has a big crush on.

Harry's best friend is Ron not Hermione, and Harry has notice Ron's jealousy towards Hermione. But is it not true that in order to have a strong love relationship you must first be friends? Harry and Hermoine have grown close..........close enough that they finish each other sentences not only that but now all they have to do is glance at each other and they know what the other is thinking.
Now the question is...will Harry discover this feelings for Hermione before Ron decides to grow up? Or will he realised them to late?

Besides in GoF it wasn't just Ron who realised that Hermione was a girl.........Harry not only notice that she was a girl , his words were "very pretty girl".

I know a lot of you are shaking your heads but the clutchin of arms, hugs , kisses, glances and Hermione's very smart way of finding out that Harry does not think she is an ugly girl (I don't remember the exact the works Hermione used in OoTP) just balances me towards Harry/Hermione.

They say a person can search all their life, looking for love......not realising that it has always being standing right next to you.

Nero

June 8th, 2005, 5:39 pm

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 5:40 pm

thanks for the links

You're welcome!

wait....what does Ron have to do w/ it? just because he thinks Harry's the best mate for his little sister? that would be like Dudley casting strange looks at Hermione thinking that she's the best for Harry. other then that i'm not sure of Ron "dropping hints all over the place" and the statement before where Ron says something about someone being Cheerier could be directed at anybody and Ginny isn't neccessarily cheerful

I think it's pretty obvious that Ron's referring to Ginny, especially since he follows it up with his "furtive glance". And there are plenty of scenes throughout OotP that show Ginny as cheerful in Harry's eyes -- I don't have time to list them, but there are quite a lot of them.

your right it's not necessary to the plot but it is necessary to the SUBplot.

Why, in your opinion, is Jo spending so much time developing a subplot that has nothing to do with Harry?

i don't even remember hearing about Ginny in Book 3 and i don't consider anything from books 1 or 2 as clues or hints (duh they're eleven!) and the thing w/ Ginny i don't understand is she is apparently "very taken" w/ Harry when they haven't even really met. she doesn't know him but she is "very taken" so she either liked his Looks/Fame/Money or whatever i don't know but then all of a sudden we're supposed to look at Ginny as a LI for Harry? i don't think so. i don't see her more mature just b/c she dated other guys .

Ginny appears a few times in Book 3 -- nothing major, but she's there. More importantly, though, she is introduced as still being shy and embarrassed around Harry. This changed in OotP.

I don't think Ginny's infatuation had anything to do with Harry's fame or money, but who he is. She wanted to "goggle" at him in SS and wasn't at all shy about going on the train to meet him. Then, after a whole summer of listening to Ron's stories about his new best friend, she got to find out more about the real Harry. Her feelings didn't run that deep as she really didn't know him as a person, and pre-pubescent crushes are not the real thing, but they weren't based on anything superficial.

Nero

June 8th, 2005, 5:51 pm

You're welcome!

I think it's pretty obvious that Ron's referring to Ginny, especially since he follows it up with his "furtive glance". And there are plenty of scenes throughout OotP that show Ginny as cheerful in Harry's eyes -- I don't have time to list them, but there are quite a lot of them.

Why, in your opinion, is Jo spending so much time developing a subplot that has nothing to do with Harry?

Ginny appears a few times in Book 3 -- nothing major, but she's there. More importantly, though, she is introduced as still being shy and embarrassed around Harry. This changed in OotP.

I don't think Ginny's infatuation had anything to do with Harry's fame or money, but who he is. She wanted to "goggle" at him in SS and wasn't at all shy about going on the train to meet him. Then, after a whole summer of listening to Ron's stories about his new best friend, she got to find out more about the real Harry. Her feelings didn't run that deep as she really didn't know him as a person, and pre-pubescent crushes are not the real thing, but they weren't based on anything superficial.

yeah i know Ron's glancing at Ginny but what's the point? i don't see how that is good for Chocolate

b/c it's a subplot Ginny isn't the only person in it. Percy and Penelope. Roger Davies and a couple of his girlfriends. Cedric. the most of the Yule Ball chapter talks about who's w/ who and wondering who Harry will take.

well yes, b/c she knew she probably wouldn't get anywhere w/ Harry. :eyebrows:

LoveThatHarry

June 8th, 2005, 5:59 pm

I am totally floating on the Harry/Hermione ship; they don't know they're in love with each other yet. There are too many distractions (Cho, Viktor, ... Ron) to keep them from focusing on each other. Romantic relationships often spring up between people who spend so much time with each other.

My hope is that Ron will get someone new to love. He's always suffering hand-me-downs and old, worn out things in his life. For once, let him have something new. This means not getting together with an "old friend" like Hermione.

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 6:00 pm

....close enough that they finish each other sentences not only that but now all they have to do is glance at each other and they know what the other is thinking.

As he can do with Ron...but I don't see those two gearing up for a date.

Besides in GoF it wasn't just Ron who realised that Hermione was a girl.........Harry not only notice that she was a girl , his words were "very pretty girl".

Note number one....his words were not very pretty girl....they were just pretty girl.
Hermione has the least flattering descriptions out of every girl but Pansy that night from Harry. (want more on that? click the link in my sig to read the text a page numbers that supoprt this 100 per cent)

Note number two....his noticing she was a girl was only as a note as to who Krum was with. If Krum had been next to a boy Harry would have noticed that Krum was next to, say, a tall blond boy with distinguished features or something like that. It was not a realization moment. There was no light bulb as Ron had when he said, "Hey, Hermione you're a girl!" The moments are VERY different.

One) Ron is experiencing a "realization moment." A realization moment demands proof that a change in view, thinking and behavior has happened. The next time Ron is able to show Hermione he thinks of her as a girl in front of Harry (which is intrigal as Harry then shows it to us) is at Christmas. Ron gives Hermione perfume. It is a gender specific gift. It acknowledges Hermione's femininity. Harry gives her a book, that while well suited to Hermione, is not gender specific. It is a gift he could have given Arthur and it still would have been appropriate.

Two) Hermione being a girl strikes the boys differntly. In Harry's case he's just noticing who his fellow champion has brought. In Ron's case it is a thoguht that Hermione is datable. He's obviously known she's female, but now she is a female that he could date. Harry is obviously aware she's femal prior to this, but gives no change in her importance of being a female. He never thinks to ask her to the ball. He doesn't spend the evening following her with his eyes. he's not wrapped in her as Ron is that evening.

I know a lot of you are shaking your heads but the clutchin of arms, hugs , kisses, glances and Hermione's very smart way of finding out that Harry does not think she is an ugly girl (I don't remember the exact the works Hermione used in OoTP) just balances me towards Harry/Hermione.

The kisses have extend to ron and in a more affecting way. And spatial proxemity and acting in protection of a friend who is in MORTAL DANGER is not shippy.

Secondly, why would Hermione, after acting in support of Harry/Cho all of a sudden be trying to be coy and underhanded and sly to find out if he thought she was pretty? It makes no sense at all. She is trying to give Harry the idea as to how he should have handled meeting Hermy in the tavern. WHY would she be offering other ideas such as saying he should have said he didn't want to meet Hermy (and when he doesn't make a big deal over this, she isn't disappointed b/c MAYBE he'd give away that he wanted to meet Hermy and not be on the date with Cho.) ???? Why would the date have been HERMIONE's idea in the first place? When Harry was unsure about Cho, why would Hermy make him understand Cho? It makes no sense if Hermy has feelings for Harry that she would push him towards a relationship with another girl. It's just plain nonsensical.

They say a person can search all their life, looking for love......not realising that it has always being standing right next to you.

JKR has made it quite clear that Harry is the main and that Hermy and Ron are his sidekicks (sidekicks being her words not mine) So the person next to Hermy isn't Harry. It's ron.

cerussite

June 8th, 2005, 6:01 pm

Wow! you've sure got it all mapped out - you don't think anyone will end up single then? What about Lupin incidentally?

Lupin is mine :eyebrows: Sigh...I wish.

hmmm in the rule sit says you can't ship human/other do you think that includes werewolf/other ;) I can't seriously (no pun intended) see Lupin paired with any canon character at the moment, but I would like to see him paired with some one, as Lupin likes to be liked.

FLASH_RUPERT

June 8th, 2005, 6:02 pm

Originally posted by:
MRSTJ1:

"And after the fight, she is the last girl standing. Ahe gives Harry a clear, consise overview of what happened while thekids were seperated, and she didn't sound dumb at the bulletin board. She's a Ravenclaw. By definition, she cnna't be stupid.
She may have eccentric ideas, but not everything she says is dumb. That's an exaggeration, as is the idea that Harry finds her revolting, which came up on the last thread."
I agree with you that Luna is not dumb (she's in Ravenclaw afterall)....we all have certain beliefs but it's not important what we beliave is what everyone else should believe(if u know what i mean)
In OoTP chapter 16:
when Luna mentioned that Ministry has got their own army of 'Heliopaths', Herminoe 'snapped' her by saying "They don't exist". Herminoe is a very intelligent student. She has read many books concerning different 'creatures' or 'non-creatures' in the wizarding world. When Luna mentioned something, which she didn't know abt, she just got kind of a bit jealous because
~ when someone has a lot of knowledge abt things he/she gets a bit too confident abt his/her being only one to know abt those things.
But LUna knew somethings(strange ones) which Herminoe didn't.
Luna believes in things which other dont that's why she's taken or known as a 'wierdo'.
Luna is known as 'wierdo' mostly b/c "the girl gave off an aura of distinct dottiness. She stuck her wand behind her ear"

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 6:02 pm

Harry doesn't think she's ugly he said it himself, and "bushy hair and large front teeth" obviously aren't bad in Harry's eyes.

On the first part.....He doesn't say he thinks she's pretty. He says he doesn't think she's ugly. There is a big difference.

On the second part....if it's obvious that those features aren't bad, please provide the canon to support it. B/C I've seen none.

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 6:05 pm

b/c it's a subplot Ginny isn't the only person in it. Percy and Penelope. Roger Davies and a couple of his girlfriends. Cedric. the most of the Yule Ball chapter talks about who's w/ who and wondering who Harry will take.

Ginny's love life is a distinctly different subplot, though.

The Percy/Penelope subplot was a red herring in CoS which was resolved at the end. It was only touched upon twice in PoA, both times for comic relief, and only got one- or two-sentence mentions.

Roger and Fleur only got a passing mention in GoF, and it was all humorous. Roger and his blonde girlfriend were part of the scene at Madam Puddifoot's as a catalyst for Cho's attempt to make Harry jealous, which he completely missed, adding to the humor of the situation.

Cedric was important as Harry's rival in GoF and became the largest impediment in his relationship with Cho in OotP. The Harry/Cho storyline has been resolved.

With Ginny, however, we get all these minor details scattered throughout the series:

1. Ginny is very taken with Harry in Books 2-4.
2. In Book 5, Ginny has given up on Harry and now has a boyfriend.
3. Harry registers that Ginny now talks in front of him.

None of this is important to the plot.

Then, in the final chapter of OotP, we have this scene which presents us with the following:

1. Harry is no longer interested in Cho.
2. Ron thinks Harry needs someone more cheerful. (We know Ginny is cheerful.)
3. Ginny has broken up with Michael.
4. Ron hints that Ginny should choose "someone better" (Harry).
5. Ginny states that she has "chosen Dean Thomas". Meaning she's not available.

With all this unnecessary exposition at the very end of the book, this practically screams *Open-Ended Plot Thread To Be Resolved In Next Book*

All IMO, of course.

Edit: I accidentally posted before I was done typing... sorry!

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 6:09 pm

Lupin is mine :eyebrows: Sigh...I wish.

hmmm in the rule sit says you can't ship human/other do you think that includes werewolf/other ;) I can't seriously (no pun intended) see Lupin paired with any canon character at the moment, but I would like to see him paired with some one, as Lupin likes to be liked.

At this moment the only person I can see him with is Rita....as shes the only female animagus around his age. I think he needs an animagus so they don't have to worry about him tearing her apart in a fit of moon rage. Tonks needs to hurry up and learn to be an animagus.

FLASH_RUPERT

June 8th, 2005, 6:11 pm

JKfan

June 8th, 2005, 6:11 pm

I have to admit when reading the first two books SS/PS and COS I felt that there could be the prospect of a Harry Hermione relationship,but as Ron has come into the picture more I'm finding this unlikely. After reading on mugglenet what Levine and Dale said when interviewed at the BookExpo America, I feel that Harry will notice Ginny more, whether he falls for her or not is another matter. Ginnys character has developed hugely since PS/SS

Personally I think that Ginny is quite similar to Lily in looks and maybe charachter, also Harry is similar to James. Is history repeating itself, im not too sure myself.

However something that I am sure of, or atleast I think I am is th Ron and Hermione relationship. I think Ron needs someone like Hermione, because although they have different characteristics and personalities, OPPOSITES ATTRACT. Hermione is intelligent and Resourceful, whereas Ron is a little clumsy, but a great friend, also he's no Einstein.

I dont think Harry needs a mother type figure in his love life : like hermione.

FLASH_RUPERT

June 8th, 2005, 6:14 pm

Yep i agree......H/Hr is most unlikely relationship

no hard feelings! (H/Hr shippers***)

luna62442

June 8th, 2005, 6:17 pm

In all fairness, its inherently obvious that its Ron and Hermione, Harry and Luna, and Draco and Pansy!!! Come on, people!!!

Padfoot19

June 8th, 2005, 6:19 pm

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 6:21 pm

Originally posted by:
MadameSparks:

On the first part.....He doesn't say he thinks she's pretty. He says he doesn't think she's ugly. There is a big difference.

On the second part....if it's obvious that those features aren't bad, please provide the canon to support it. B/C I've seen none.

just b/c someone wears a necklace of Butterbeer corks or keeps her/his wand behind her/his ear doesn't mean they're ugly.
Harry's opinion changed abt Luna after his last conversation, but he didn't think she was beautiful nor ugly. Harry didn't mind Luna asking him abt Sirius b/c that's human nature
~ sometimes we get annoyed if one of our frndz ask us repeated questions but if the same question is asked by someone we dont mind we simply answer them.....

I didn't say Luna was ugly.....I wasn't talking about Luna at all. I don't know where that came from but what you've quoted me is asking someone why they feel Harry thinks bushy hair and buckteeth are pretty. And I asked for canon. If there is no canon, then there is no need for saying that I annoy you or your friends. You can just say theres no canon.

QueenLindzi

June 8th, 2005, 6:31 pm

I think there will be a Luna-Ron-Hermione love triangle similar to the Harry-Cho-Cedric one in GoF.

MPPMarauderGirl

June 8th, 2005, 6:40 pm

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 7:01 pm

I'd like to thank shmink for the absolutely spectactular Marauder picture in my signature! Thanks again!

Oh, you resized it! Thanks. :blush:

MPPMarauderGirl

June 8th, 2005, 7:17 pm

Oh, you resized it! Thanks. :blush:

Yes! After begging my friends who do have photoshop, I was able to make it just the right size! Thanks again for the use of this awesome picture.

And again, I am open for a discussion or debate on Chocolate. It doesn't seem to be thoroughly understood and I'd like to clear up anyone's thoughts about it. It really is a good ship. :)

glowing_ice

June 8th, 2005, 7:25 pm

MPPMarauderGirl

June 8th, 2005, 7:37 pm

1) Both have red hair (also somewhat bushy)

Ginny is the only girl with red hair. Hermione Granger has brown hair.

2) Both are highly intelligent

Ginny is as well. And Luna is in Ravenclaw after all.

3) Both are Muggleborn

I don't see the revelence of this, because it doesn't drastically effect anything. In this sense, when Lily was called a Mudblood, James stepped up to defend her. When Hermione was called a Mudblood, Ron came to her defense, not Harry.

4) Both in Gryffindor

Ginny as well.

5) Both have somewhat fiery tempers

I see a closer link with Ginny/Lily. Lily will not let James pick on Snape, where Ginny will not let Neville degrade himself, or anyone else be rude to him for that matter.

There are others, but these are the main ones. JK Rowling might have possibly made them have a lot in common so that this will foreshadow the get-together of Harry and Hermoine.

This is always a possibility, but Lily doesn't always connect with Hermione. Ginny is like Lily as well, and Chocolate could pull the same argument.

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 7:38 pm

I believe that Harry and Hermoine will get together in the future primarily because if they become a couple, they could very much depict Lily and James. If you haven't noticed, Lily and Hermoine have A LOT in common, and Harry and James are definitely alike. Similarities between Lily and Hermoine would be:

1) Both have red hair (also somewhat bushy)
2) Both are highly intelligent
3) Both are Muggleborn
4) Both in Gryffindor
5) Both have somewhat fiery tempers

There are others, but these are the main ones. JK Rowling might have possibly made them have a lot in common so that this will foreshadow the get-together of Harry and Hermoine.

Interesting...but 1) Hermy's hair is brown. 2) what canon do we have that Lily was top of the class like hermy? 3) yes but that's hardly a hugely identifying thing, and also I believe there is some question over Lily's origins, but we'll have to wait to see what Petunia's secret is 4) So is Ginny, and Lavendar, and Neville, and a couple other hundred kids. 5) we saw Lily one time defending Snape and snapping at Sirius and James whom she wasn't friends with and thought were being mean. We don't know that that firey temper wasn't an isolated event.

Where similarites to Lily are concerned Ginny is a MUCH closer match

1) both redheads
2) both green eyes
3) both VERY skilled at charms
4) both right the guy who's wrong (Ginny to Harry when he's sulking about the possession that wasn't a possession)
5) Both are popular
6) If it makes any difference both are in Gryffindor
7) Both have siblings (hermy has none)

The similarities are closer between Ginny and Lily than Hermy and Lily....however I personally don't ship Chocolate b/c of that. I ship it b/c of Ginny's early interest in Harry which after holding it for 4 years did not lesson until GoF and the Yule BAll when Harry says in front of her he likes someone else. Then in the next book Ginny is showing Harry her individuality and stepping out from the shadows. She is increasing in importance to harry. And as no character that isn't on a one year contract or unimportant to the 7 book series as a whole has come into the light and then backed away. She will gain importance and I believe will be Harry's LI.

LuPiN_RuLeS913

June 8th, 2005, 7:41 pm

MPPMarauderGirl

June 8th, 2005, 7:46 pm

2) both green eyes

Just a quicky, here. Ginny has "bright brown eyes." Her eyes are one of her many features described (by Harry :evil:!) in good lighting. For a fraction of a second, Harry looked toward the door and noticed that Ginny had "bright brown eyes" and you can find this when Harry gets to the Burrow for the first time in book 2. But good of you letting me bring up that Ginny's eyes, along with many of her other physical features, are described in a good light. :tu: to that!

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 7:53 pm

Just a quicky, here. Ginny has "bright brown eyes." Her eyes are one of her many features described (by Harry :evil:!) in good lighting. For a fraction of a second, Harry looked toward the door and noticed that Ginny had "bright brown eyes" and you can find this when Harry gets to the Burrow for the first time in book 2. But good of you letting me bring up that Ginny's eyes, along with many of her other physical features, are described in a good light. :tu: to that!

Ah my bad....either way...Ginny is more like Lily than anyone. Not that I feel that matters for much.

MPPMarauderGirl

June 8th, 2005, 7:56 pm

Ah my bad....either way...Ginny is more like Lily than anyone. Not that I feel that matters for much.

Oh, I agree that when Harry falls for Ginny, it won't be because she reminds him of his mother. I think Ginny has enough going for her already, that we don't need to bring in the "she's like this mother" theory. To each their own, but to me, Ginny is already winning the race, and she has JKR on her side. :eyebrows:

Lunna

June 8th, 2005, 8:11 pm

AngiePangie

June 8th, 2005, 8:19 pm

Hermione and Ron is an almost for sure thing, but im not so sure about a Harry/Ginny relationship. Ginny is over Harry and should be. she has been pushed aside by him and now thinks of him as only a friend. Also, Ginny is very light hearted while Harry has become more and more "dark". Ginny needs someone more upbeat.

I think a Harry/Ghinny ship is likely. I wouldn't bet money on it, I can't totally throw Luna off as a possible love interest for Harry, but I think a Harry/Ginny ship is more likely.

It never says in the books that Ginny is "over" Harry, just that she has "given up" on him. Personally I see this as a good thing, and not as a sign that there isn't a chance for a Ginny/Harry ship. Quite the opposite in fact. Ginny's crush on Harry was more of a Fangirl type of thing. She had a crush on him because he was "The Famous Harry Potter", she didn't nessisarily have a crush on Harry for who he was but what he was. In order for them to have any chance at a future romantic relationship that had to go. Now that it has it's allowed Harry and Ginny to get to know each other better. Now Harry sees Ginny as more than his best friends sister with a silly school girl crush, and she sees him as more than just the boy who lived.

I wouldn't say that harry has become more dark, just that he's going through a really hard time right now (ha, thats an understatement). Ginny understands this, and has tried to help Harry out as much as possible. I think the fact that Ginny is a upbeat and lighthearted person is a good thing for Harry. He's going to need someone like that who can help take his mind off all of his troubles with Voldy.

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 8:25 pm

Hmmm........Harry and Ginny??? Why would JK repeat history?

I do see Ginny becoming a stronger character in the series and the crush Ginny had on Harry CoS was obvious but Ginny HAS moved on..... and I doubt she has other boyfriends to try and get Harry's attention.
Not once have I seen Harry make a special gesture toward ginny that would indicate more than a friendship.

Sorry but I just don't see Harry and Ginny together.

B/c its a book and books often have parallels such as a couple forming that resembles the iconical couple before them.

The notions that Ginny has moved on is debatable, as it is a matter of semantics. Secondly, she could be dating others b/c well, why not. THey like her and she wants to have a bit of fun and they're nice enough boys. But that's all it is, a bit of fun. She hasn't been serious about them (as length of time is less of an indicator than how she speaks about them and how easily she drops Micheal and how nonchalantley she speaks of Dean) And if Harry's not interested in dating she might think, why should i sit and pine when I could go out and have a date to the yule ball or someone to take me nice places in Hogsmeade.

You haven't seen it b/c he's not made any truly special move towards any girl.

It never says in the books that Ginny is "over" Harry, just that she has "given up" on him. Personally I see this as a good thing, and not as a sign that there isn't a chance for a Ginny/Harry ship. Quite the opposite in fact. Ginny's crush on Harry was more of a Fangirl type of thing. She had a crush on him because he was "The Famous Harry Potter", she didn't nessisarily have a crush on Harry for who he was but what he was. In order for them to have any chance at a future romantic relationship that had to go. Now that it has it's allowed Harry and Ginny to get to know each other better. Now Harry sees Ginny as more than his best friends sister with a silly school girl crush, and she sees him as more than just the boy who lived.

While I agree with most of this I have to ask (as i've been wondering it a lot myself too)

Is Ginny's first liking of Harry only a fangirl crush? She displays no signs of being taken with his fame (like Colin creevy or others who whisper about him in the halls). She carries it for four years until in GoF Harry announces that he's asked Cho to the ball in front of Ginny and Ginny, who was happy and active in the conversation until this announcement, gets sad and slumps off. We find out in OotP her relationship with Micheal Corner started soon after that. (Rebound?) and that relationship never appeared to be that deep (from the bits we saw.) My theory is Ginny is as JKR put it "languishing in love" and not that she was just a silly girl with silly crush. Thoughts?

Other than that I agree that OotP was used to bring her out as an individual and to make Harry see her as Ginny, not Ron's kid sister.

Liliane

June 8th, 2005, 8:37 pm

Ginny+Harry=<3
Ron+Hermione=<3
Luna+Neville=<3

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 8:49 pm

I do see Ginny becoming a stronger character in the series and the crush Ginny had on Harry CoS was obvious but Ginny HAS moved on.....
We don't know for certain if Ginny/Dean will work out or not. Also, we don't know Ginny's feelings, just Harry's, so this is not a valid argument. She is a good actress, you know... :)

Not once have I seen Harry make a special gesture toward ginny that would indicate more than a friendship.
So far, Harry has not made romantic gestures toward any girl besides Cho, so this cannot be used as an argument against Chocolate.

SinginPhoenix

June 8th, 2005, 8:56 pm

I agree that the Ron/Hermy relationship is much more likely than the Harry/Hermione relationship because of the obvious scenes in the PofA movie and in GofF and in OoftheP because :
1.The similarities between James and Ron and Lily and Hermione are uncanny...they are both prefects,and James and Lily were "head boy and girl" according to Hagrid in The Sorcerer's Stone.
2.In PofA movie,when Buckbeak is (seemingly) executed,Hermione buries her face in Ron's neck in the anguish of the moment. However, her holding hands with Harry didn't seem (to me) to be a sign of romance...although right before Malfoy and his cronies appear when Hermione and Ron are standing outside of the Shrieking Shack, there seems to be a new awkwardness–especially when Hermione says,"Would you like to move a bit closer?" and Ron replies increduously,
"huh?"
"to the shrieking shack."
then a few seconds later Malfoy appears and asks if they are planning their new dream home.
3.In GofF Ron is obviously jealous of Hermione going to the Yule ball with Krum...in fact the jealousy is still apparent in O of the Phoenix with his asking her who she was writing the novel to, and her "Viktor" answer and his "Krum!?"answer along with "He didn't only want to be your pen pal" shows this.
4.Hermione kisses Ron on the cheek in OoftheP.Harry shows no jealousy over this however.
5.Hermy and Ron are arguing half the time,much like Harry's parents.
6.Ron ruffles his hair under the exact same tree James did.
7.It took forever for James and Lily to get together "in seventh year,once James had deflated his head a bit." accord.to the conversation between Harry,Lupin and Sirius in OoftheP.It is also taking forever for Hermione and Ron, but I think this and many more things are leading up to a romantic relationship.
I might add that Lily took a long time to go out with James, and that might be the same with Harry liking Ginny that way.However, that "oddly furtive" look Ron gives Harry about choosing someone better next time has puzzled me ever since I read it–could it be that Ron wants Harry and Ginny to go out? And then there's Luna,(an unlikely pair?) who can see the thestrals. I can't help but think Harry will end up bonding romantically with Luna or Ginny for because of the hard times they have had,like Harry.(Remember Ron said Ginny was awfully quiet on the train when the dementors came in their car.)

I could go on more about this and plan to soon:)

bamaslamma29

June 8th, 2005, 9:18 pm

When you have canon to support this, please give it. However as we don't KNOW what hermione thinks as we don't read her thoughts this is highly unlikely. I don't have the exact page as my books at home, perhaps someone could help me out with the OotP page number, but it's in the chapter Percy and Padfoot (right after Detention with Umbridge) I believe where Ron says that something Sirius (i believe sirius says it) says is the dumest thing he's ever heard, and that's including everything Luna says. SO while someone can make a comment which tops the stupid things luna says (in ron's opinion) he lumps ALL of the things she says together and marks them as severely dumb.

Unfortunatly there doesn't seem to be an evidence that Hermione categorizes Ron and everything he says as severly dumb. But if you can find canon for it, that'd be interesting. I don't even think when they're arguing she says anything like that. And most CERTAINLY doesn't speak about Ron behind his back saying to others that everything he says is stupid. But if you can find it, more power to you.

Come on, please. :sigh: I think we all remember the times Hermione has called Ron "ridiculous", thrown off his ideas like they are not worthy of attention, and called him "pathetic" for not learning to say "Voldemort" like she has. You seriously want canon for this?? You haven't forgotten what you've read so quickly, have you? I know we're reading the same books... :)

I trust Herons also have not forgotten how at least twice, Ron misses something both Hermione and Harry catch, (one, from memory, the "dogging" insinuation about Sirius, where Ron clearly notices nothing) and how at least once, (just from memory, I recall this one), Hermione and Harry are working something out between them with Ron watching them going "huh?"

I don't think it's that Hermione thinks Ron is stupid. I DO think, however, based on canon Ron and Harry, and Hermione's reactions to them, that she thinks Harry is a bit more intuitive and sort of catches what's going on better than Ron does. Yes, Ron seems to be growing up a bit more, and JKR seems to be allowing him a couple more opinions that align with what Harry and Hermione, or one of them, already feel, and therefore Hermione does not reject them, but I think we all remember that Hermione seems to shoot down Ron's opinions quite a bit. This is just canon, and I know plenty of Heron's who don't need it all written out to remember it.

Cheers! Bama

As Ron is jealous over any guy that Hermione seems to show TOO MUCH attention to, or to be a person he feels is less than worthy of her attention, he jumps right in with his jealousy.....I'd say...if he's not jealous by now, he's not gonna be.

Ron trusts Harry...and he trusts Hermione. And while there may be some fun little bit of drama...Hermy trips and Harry catches her as Ron walks through the door and suspects the worst....They'll clear it up and move on....stronger as a pair b/c Ron knows Hermy doesn't want Harry and vice versa.

I don't believe this is correct. (Sorry if it seems like I'm singling you out MS... not intentional, I assure you. :)) If Ron trusted that there was nothing between Harry and Hermione and that there never would be, he would have known that Hermione was merely stating that Cho was not crying because Harry was a bad kisser, and not thought immediately that Hermione knew Harry was not a bad kisser from her own personal experience. :eyebrows: THis is the immediate conclusion that Ron came to, (See the "How do YOU know!?" Ron says suspiciously after Hermione says "Of course you're not.")

If it could never happen in Ron's mind, there would not be a suspicion. It's obvious from that small little part there that the thought has occured to him and it is plausible in his mind.

Cheers! Bama

physis

June 8th, 2005, 9:22 pm

I agree that the Ron/Hermy relationship is much more likely than the Harry/Hermione relationship because of the obvious scenes in the PofA movie and in GofF and in OoftheP because :

really? whenever i watch those movies i see an absolute dearth of chemistry between rupert and emma. even though the directors might posit a r/hr relationship, i haven't seen the two actors try and pull it off (exception being the palpable tension showed at the end of CoS). i mean, the shrieking shack scene almost had me laughing at how forced the dialogue sounded when hermione wanted to ask ron if he wanted to move closer. it didn't sound forced as in adolescent anxiety...but just forced. i know many people think that rupert and emma have chemistry on screen, but from the first 3 movies, i haven't seen it.

1.The similarities between James and Ron and Lily and Hermione are uncanny...they are both prefects,and James and Lily were "head boy and girl" according to Hagrid in The Sorcerer's Stone.

dumbledore as much as said that he should have made harry prefect. and we won't know who is headboy/girl until book 7.

2.In PofA movie,when Buckbeak is (seemingly) executed,Hermione buries her face in Ron's neck in the anguish of the moment. However, her holding hands with Harry didn't seem (to me) to be a sign of romance...although right before Malfoy and his cronies appear when Hermione and Ron are standing outside of the Shrieking Shack, there seems to be a new awkwardness–especially when Hermione says,"Would you like to move a bit closer?" and Ron replies increduously,
"huh?"
"to the shrieking shack."
then a few seconds later Malfoy appears and asks if they are planning their new dream home.

well, i explained how i felt about that scene above. and as far as hermione going to both ron and harry in the movies for comfort...herons and hamonians both see them differently. i'm certain a harmonian would see the buckbeak scene as non-shippy, just like heron's say that the grawp scene is not shippy.

i'm from the perspective that in any case, it's a friend needing another friend to comfort. she's a girl. don't any of you blokes have girls as friends that seek solace in a hug when they are down? without romantic implications?

3.In GofF Ron is obviously jealous of Hermione going to the Yule ball with Krum...in fact the jealousy is still apparent in O of the Phoenix with his asking her who she was writing the novel to, and her "Viktor" answer and his "Krum!?"answer along with "He didn't only want to be your pen pal" shows this.

the words, "obviously", "definitely" are starting to bug me a bit in this thread. as we can see from the debate, things are not "obvious" or "definite" as long as several different sides see several different things. i, personally, concede that ron is showing juvenile jealousy in the hermione/krum interaction. however, you can make an argument that ron is merely angry that hermione is fraternizing with the enemy of harry's...whose defense is a sore spot for ron seeing as he abandoned harry earlier in GoF.

4.Hermione kisses Ron on the cheek in OoftheP.Harry shows no jealousy over this however.

hermione kisses harry at the end of GoF. i don't recall ron being jealous (i'm not certain if he and the weasley's had left by that time tho, i don't have my book near me.) so far, hermione has kissed both harry and ron on the cheek. it's interesting to note that when hermione kissed harry...she had a reaction...well, jo said something like, "and hermione did something she'd never done before". when hermione kissed ron, he had a reaction, and she had none. i'm not sure what that means...i read both kisses as means of comfort and distraction. also, i think i've read harmonians say that there's no evidence that hermione didn't kiss harry after she kissed ron in OotP. some like, "and you Harry --"...with the "--" being in reference to her kiss. darned if i know if that's true.

5.Hermy and Ron are arguing half the time,much like Harry's parents.

i think this has some merit. based on what i know of jarmes and lily, i think they argue for different reasons (james is an arrogant pest...ron is insensitive and tactless)...but i can definitely see this dynamic. and yeah, as of OotP, ron's seemed to settle down more and mature. didn't james and lily start seeing each other romantically in their 6th or 7th year after james cooled down?

6.Ron ruffles his hair under the exact same tree James did.

i'll take your word on this, i don't remember this scene.

7.It took forever for James and Lily to get together "in seventh year,once James had deflated his head a bit." accord.to the conversation between Harry,Lupin and Sirius in OoftheP.It is also taking forever for Hermione and Ron, but I think this and many more things are leading up to a romantic relationship.

i agree somewhat like i said above. but one thing that's different is that james and lily weren't friends before james cooled down right? he had to mature and then win her over. ron and hermione, for all intents and purposes, are best friends (along with harry). that's why (despite the yule brawl), i've always read their spats as bickering siblings.

i think we'd need more background information on the how's and why's of james and lily before we start comparing them to r/hr or h/hr or h/g.

I might add that Lily took a long time to go out with James, and that might be the same with Harry liking Ginny that way.However, that "oddly furtive" look Ron gives Harry about choosing someone better next time has puzzled me ever since I read it–could it be that Ron wants Harry and Ginny to go out? And then there's Luna,(an unlikely pair?) who can see the thestrals. I can't help but think Harry will end up bonding romantically with Luna or Ginny for because of the hard times they have had,like Harry.(Remember Ron said Ginny was awfully quiet on the train when the dementors came in their car.)

I could go on more about this and plan to soon:)

but wasn't it the case that james was always after lily? i haven't seen ron be very proactive to hermione (maybe the christmas gift...which i didn't read her enjoying too wildly).

bamaslamma29

June 8th, 2005, 9:27 pm

I don't think Ron is jealous of Harry at all, when it comes to Hermy. When Harry finally joins them at 12GP, Hermy, in a cloud of bushy hair, nearly knocks Harry down when she hugs him. What is Ron doing during this supposedly 'shippy' hug? He's calmly shutting the door (probably to keep the cold out) and grinning. He says, while grinning, "Let him breathe!" (or some such). This to me does not seem in the least bit jealous to me.

You might want to reread the post H/C kiss scene, when Ron becomes instantly suspicious that the reason Hermione knows Harry isn't a bad kisser, is from her own personal experience. :eyebrows: I don't suppose anyone has forgotten that part of canon, have they? Sort of blows away the theory that Ron can't ever see anything happening between the two, doesn't it... :evil:

We aren't privy to Ron's thoughts on H/Hr, which are really never brought forward one way or the other before this tiny little remark... (see GoF... we see Harry's feelings about his "romance" with Hermione... they are "No. We're just friends." Hermione's are to very cooly ignore everyone, laugh openly at their attempts to make H/Hr feel uncomfortable, and to make Rita pay for printing lies... but she never comes out and denies anything, does she? Hmm... But hey... has anyone ever thought about the fact that Ron's feelings on the subject don't come up at all? He is part of the trio... he IS the one who has a crush on Hermione... to me, it's suspicious that JKR has Ron hardly saying a word about it... it just doesn't seem normal for him not even to have a comment.)

My thoughts?

If we were to understand just then that Ron found the idea of H/Hr plausible, it might be revealing things a bit too soon. So Ron's feelings on the subject are never broached one way or the other.... that is, until OoTP, where we can see that Ron, indeed, does not think the idea laughable or something that could never happen... quite the opposite, actually. :eyebrows:

CHeers! Bama :)

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 9:32 pm

Come on, please. I think we all remember the times Hermione has called Ron "ridiculous", thrown off his ideas like they are not worthy of attention, and called him "pathetic" for not learning to say "Voldemort" like she has. You seriously want canon for this?? You haven't forgotten what you've read so quickly, have you? I know we're reading the same books...

I trust that you can debate without behaving as if I haven't read the books, or that I have a poor memory. I'm not asking for something said in an arguement or a critique on 1 thing Ron does. What I'm looking for is Hermione's making a statement like Ron does about Luna, where Hermione would 1) be talking about ron behind his back and 2) say that everything he says is dumb. As it's been what...6 pages and noone mangaged to provide canon, I'll happily conclude that there isn't any.

I trust Herons also have not forgotten how at least twice, Ron misses something both Hermione and Harry catch, (one, from memory, the "dogging" insinuation about Sirius, where Ron clearly notices nothing) and how at least once, (just from memory, I recall this one), Hermione and Harry are working something out between them with Ron watching them going "huh?"

Ron's actual level of intelligence is NOT what's at question here. (Beside the fact that he gets the same grades as Harry) What I'm asking for is proof that Hermione thinks EVERYTHING Ron says is stupid...as that was what was shot at me when i pointed out Ron's statement about Luna.

I DO think, however, based on canon Ron and Harry, and Hermione's reactions to them, that she thinks Harry is a bit more intuitive and sort of catches what's going on better than Ron does

You mean like when she says, "You're as bad as Ron." That sounds mostly like she considers them equal.

but I think we all remember that Hermione seems to shoot down Ron's opinions quite a bit. This is just canon, and I know plenty of Heron's who don't need it all written out to remember it.

You also might consider that Harry doesn't even try to speak his mind to Hermione. For every time he does there are 5 times that he thinks about saying something but stifles it. In order to get "shot down" (which she doesn't do...she debates with him...shot down gives the impression that Hermione wins every time, and she simply doesn't) you have to step up first. Ron and Hermione enjoy debating.

And sorry but a general overview plus your interpretation isn't canon. You need to provide text with page numbers....and remember I'm not looking for a general "That's silly, Ron." b/c that doesn't lump ALL of Ron's ideas as one and it doesn't talk about him behind his back.

I don't believe this is correct. (Sorry if it seems like I'm singling you out MS... not intentional, I assure you. ) If Ron trusted that there was nothing between Harry and Hermione and that there never would be, he would have known that Hermione was merely stating that Cho was not crying because Harry was a bad kisser, and not thought immediately that Hermione knew Harry was not a bad kisser from her own personal experience. THis is the immediate conclusion that Ron came to, (See the "How do YOU know!?" Ron says suspiciously after Hermione says "Of course you're not.")

If it could never happen in Ron's mind, there would not be a suspicion. It's obvious from that small little part there that the thought has occured to him and it is plausible in his mind.

The 1 time that Hermione made a statement which could be misconstrued, Ron did jump on it. It was corrected and there was no more issue. Ron's jealousy in the two instances its been truly appearant (Krum and Lockhart) spanned an entire school year and was not susceptible to reason. I don't count that 1 little itty bitty incident as proof that Ron is jealous of Hermione and Harrys presumed closeness. He didn't carry on and it didn't start a fight. It was a blip on the radar that Ron blurted out (like the you wanna move closer...huh?...to the shrieking shack ....incident.) where his mind is thinking hermione is saying something she's not.

physis

June 8th, 2005, 9:38 pm

eRiN_GRyFFiN

June 8th, 2005, 9:38 pm

Hi!

It's been sooo long since my last post here, that I must have become a Professional Lurker, level 3 right now... :p

But well, tonight I feel like rambling a little about this..maybe is the "only-a-month-more!" feeling :D

What a good feeling to see we can talk amicably all the possibilities of jumping ships. There is nothing wrong with that, because we are not obligated to defend our ship with all cost. Anyway all ships belong to JK Rowling. She wrote the books as such that we began to think about the possibilities. The biggest push is that Jo Rowling herself wants us to think about romance and that she wrote romance between the lines. Thus people started to sail to remote islands and dig the treasures out of the sands.

I'm very happy to notice the same :)

It's funny that many go to the extreme in pairing every character! I wonder whether they think HP series as a matchmaking guide. Having a mass wedding of just graduated high schoolers is a bit too much. Otherwise, the last chapter of Book 7 will look like a wedding registry of a townhall or city hall.

:rotfl: :rotfl: I've been laughing SO LOUD after reading this that my mum has come all scared to check if I was ok... :D

I agree, by the way :tu: . I don't really think Harry Potter's likely to have that kind of endings... imagine! lol..

Before going on, I have to say that I'm not aboard on any of the ships, but kinda swiming between them :D

I started to read the books after the movies came out, so I suppose I was was a little influenced by the Heron viewpoint. But even then I didn't pay that much attention to the shippy side of the books.

While reading GOF, I could feel the jealousy of Ron. I could see poor Harry sighing for Cho. I could see Ginny really sad about Harry having a crush on Cho. But Hermione was still a half-mystery to me. I have never thought of Hermione liking Krum.
I DO have see some kind of attitude towards Ron, which is Heron.
But also, I noticed not only the jealousy of Krum because of Harry (which doesn't mean he's saying that Herm has confessed to him is undying love for Harry... :D). Hermione pays a lot of attention to Harry, indeed. And then we are told that she is talking of Harry. Obviously not all day long, I'm sure. But it kinda reminded me to... MENTIONITIS. lol.. Like Hermione having mentionitis.

But, as I was reading, I didn't see it very shippy. As I told, I had watched the movies before, so I suppose I took Heron for granted.

But OOTP surprised me.

On one hand,Ron's more and more aware of his feelings for Hermione, and I think that's one of the things we all agree with :D.

But Hermione... I was thinking about Heron, so I was a little surprised to read some things. Not that they were too shippy ( I wasn't really into ships until I discovered this forum, months later), but I don't know.

For example, all the Cho related scenes. I was reading the post-kiss scene and I was like: :huh: What's happening to Hermione? I don't know. I expected another reaction after such a great new that happened to Harry...

I don't know, her post-advices to Harry... I don't know. I'm not telling that's shippy or that's because Hermione is in love with Harry. But I can understand Harmonian point of view at some extent.

About H/G...

Well, I've always said that I feel I don't know that much about Ginny, and perhaps that's because she's not my fave character or something.

I really can't say she's not good for Harry, is just that I can't see it. If H/G is gonna happen eventually, I would have liked to see it coming somehow. I mean... in OOTP, Ginny could have taken Hermione's role, without changing the plot or the situations.

For example, I think that Ginny could have been the one Harry grabbed in the DoM, leaving Hermione/Luna/Ron (interesting since Luna seems to care a lot of Ron! lol) and neville/harry/Ginny.
Ginny could have been the one being unconcious and Harry had panicked and... I don't know, that would be some kind of romantic and foreshadowing canon behind chocolate. And a good one! :D It would have help me to accept Ginny as Harry's future love interest. at least .. :D

So I don't know...to me it's odd to think of harry and Ginny together.

But well.. I think book 6 is going to bring no official pairings... but who knows!

That's why I said early that I couln't be aboard on a ship...I see so different things that I just must be swimming between them :D

If Harmony sails, it won't surprise me; I can't see hints.
If Heron sails, same as above.
If chocolate...well, the door's open.
Moonlight...same as above.

Jo is a GENIUS. Definitely.

hugs!
eRiN

bamaslamma29

June 8th, 2005, 9:40 pm

I have a bit of a question. For all those who ship SIGNS: What do you make of Ginny being Neville's second choice? Neville asked Hermione to the ball first. Neville's grandmother new of Hermione by name. Ginny was just a Weasley and Neville hadn't told his grandmother so much about her. That to me is more apparent then Neville trying to save Ginny from the IS (after all, saving someone is not shippy!!). So Hermione was/is Neville's first choice and he speaks of her, not Ginny. How does that reflect in SIGNS? I have never seen Ginny-->Neville, and with this bit of canon floating around, I now see Neville-->Hermione, not Neville-->Ginny. And how would it be if after all this time arguing Hermione's gonna get with Harry/Ron, she ends up with Neville, of all people! How cool would that be? :eyebrows:

What then, do you make of Chocolate, when Harry did not consider Ginny AT ALL for the Yule Ball (much less as a second choice); has known, like others have pointed out, that she has had a crush on him for years and has never, ever reciprocated; has never commented/really thought positively about her appearance; and that there is nothing shippy in recieving a chocolate egg from her that her mother sent for Harry, nor is there from Ginny thinking that her brothers might help Harry talk with Sirius?

Cheers, Bama

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 9:40 pm

You might want to reread the post H/C kiss scene, when Ron becomes instantly suspicious that the reason Hermione knows Harry isn't a bad kisser, is from her own personal experience.

Why would Ron suspect that Harry and Hermione have been kissing while he still thinks Hermione likes Viktor, and he knows Harry's been crushing on Cho for over a year?

I think Ron is just suspicious of why Hermione seems to know so much about kissing.

bamaslamma29

June 8th, 2005, 9:48 pm

Why would Ron suspect that Harry and Hermione have been kissing while he still thinks Hermione likes Viktor, and he knows Harry's been crushing on Cho for over a year?

I think Ron is just suspicious of why Hermione seems to know so much about kissing.

Harry had just been thinking he's a bad kisser. HErmione tells him "Of course you're not." Ron turns to Hermione and says (about her knowing whether or not Harry, specifically is a bad kisser) "How do you know!?"

This is pretty black and white. Ron was instantly suspicious that Hermione knew that Harry, specifically was not a bad kisser, from her own experience with him. There's no plausible way to explain that away. Plain and simple: Ron does not think it out of the realm of possibility that Hermione and Harry could kiss.

Cheers, Bama

Hi, I would like to intruduce myself and say that I'm a H/Hr shipper. I am mostly a lurker and have been since OoTP first came out. I have acutaly replied to a few posts here and there but never actually posted why I became a Harry and Hermione shipper.

When I first started reading the books I didn't really ship anything. I thought Harry and Hermione would be cute but wasn't too sure. So then I said what about Ron and Hermione?I thought maybe but then I said nah. The reason was becasue in my belief only Ron liked Hermione and Hermione didn't to my belief return those feelings. I didn't think there was enough evidence to ship anything and be completely sure it was right. So then I got my OoTP copy, read it, and my eyes were opened to the possibility of Harry and Hermione happening. There were many moments that lead me to believe they were getting much closer and could possibly be more than friends in the next book. I have now read many essays posted by other H/Hr shippers and am convinced it has a very strong possibility of happening.

I have to admit though other ships also have the possility of happening and that sometimes when I read some of these debates between some of you in my mind I'm seriously consididering jumping ships. The good thing about that is that either way JK goes I won't be dissapointed or confused.

I agree completely Reverie. We all have evidence for our ships. It all hinges on which one JKR finally decides to let sail.

Cheers, Bama :)

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 9:51 pm

no, ms, i don't think there's canon for hermione saying behind ron's back that everything he says is dumb.

that wasn't what my post was about. my post was just saying that hermione does make negative statements about ron (to ron's face).

i didn't get the part of the thread where it was about ron talking behind luna's back.

but on that note, hasn't ron talked about hermione behind her back? whenever's he said to harry, "she's mental, that one" or "scary...brilliant but scary"...isn't that making a comment about hermione behind her back? now, i've always read those scenes as ron being almost complimentary about hermione, but i can see others reading it differently.

so if ron calls luna "loony", and hermione "mental"...does that crush both red moon and heron?

I don't remember where in the series he says those things...but arent they in PS/SS before he knows her well? And brilliant but scary is meant as a compliment....it doesn't matter how someone reads it, b/c Ron says it b/c he's impressed with hermione.

And if you hadn't read my entire post about how Ron was saying that stuff behind Luna's back, then perhaps your one liner was a bit unwarrented. And you still seem to be missing my point. Hermione doesn't make a statment which lumps all the things ron says together and call them dumb. Unfortunatly Ron does that to Luna. And no i didn't say it sank Redmoon. I don't deny that Luna seems attracted to and interested in Ron. And who knows in the future perhaps he'll change his mind about her (he did after all change his opinion or Hermione)....And my basis for this was not b/c Ron calls Luna Loony. But I don't know how else to communicate that the text directly has ron say that all the things Luna says are dumb. And it's not a matter of interpretaion.

bamaslamma29

June 8th, 2005, 9:52 pm

Actually you'll find that Hermione never actually denies to anyone that she's Harry's girlfriend in GoF--Harry does all of the talking concerning that, besides Hermione denying that she's a scarlet woman mixing love potions to deliberately ensnare two celebrities at once. I think it's possible that Hermione was calling the lidea of her mixing up love potions and deliberately stringing two boys along because she likes 'em famous is what Hermione was calling rubbish--not necessarily the idea of her being Harry's girlfriend. But the fact is that she's not Harry's girlfriend in this book anyway, so why would her denying this, even if she did, be evidence of her not liking Harry, when it would only be stating the facts, that she wasn't at the present time? And yes, harry doesn't seem to have any romantic feelings necessarily in this book, but maybe he hasn't realized what his feelings are quite yet--he's distracted by Cho, and face it, harry is pretty clueless when it comes to romance--Cho asked him if he wanted to do anything on Valentine's day with her, and he didn't even get it at first! And in OoTP especially Harry shows many signs of a very deep bond with Hermione, and of their friendship deepening--possibly beyond friendship? He certainly seems to care more for Hermione than he does for Ginny, so I think it's ridiculous when H/G shippers insult H/Hr for no being there, but then say that Harry will grow to love Ginny and realize his feeling for her in upcoming books. Wait a minute people--it's possible for Harry to realize romantic feelings for Ginny in the future, but not for Hermione? There's evidence that Hermione has a crush on Harry, but naturally that she's a bit better at hiding it than Ginny was. If you were uncertain about whether you love interest might not retunr your feelings, and were worried about jeapordizing your friendship with him, than you might be just as hesitant.

Actually Hermione does not encourage nor tell Harry to date Cho--she just raises the question--soemthing perfectly natural to want to know about if she had a crush on Harry and wanted to see what he would do. She probably thought it would have occured to him already. Also, even if she was in a good mood because of getting back at Umbrigde, she's a sensitive person, and thus should have tried to make her tone less cheery when asking abotu a date that she KNEW had gone wrong, as she had seen Harry walk in long before he was supposed to, looking disgruntled. Hermione knows Harry well, adn reads him almost better than anyone else. She would have been able to deduce that the date went badly. Finally, the ugly comment might have been an indication of how Hermione thinks Harry sees her, which would then support her insecurity abotu reveraling her feelings to him explicitly.

Very very well put and succinct. It's nice to see so many others that caught those particular clues to Hermione's feelings for Harry. Well done! :claps:

Cheers, Bama

physis

June 8th, 2005, 9:53 pm

And if you hadn't read my entire post about how Ron was saying that stuff behind Luna's back, then perhaps your one liner was a bit unwarrented.

touche.

MadameSparks

June 8th, 2005, 9:56 pm

touche.

That made me laugh :) i like that word :)

Alrighty....its go home time!

shmink

June 8th, 2005, 10:11 pm

What then, do you make of Chocolate, when Harry did not consider Ginny AT ALL for the Yule Ball (much less as a second choice)

He didn't consider anyone except Cho, and we know how that turned out.

has known, like others have pointed out, that she has had a crush on him for years and has never, ever reciprocated

Why would he reciprocate when she's too shy to speak in front of him? That would be frightfully awkward.

Also, when Cho first caught Harry's attention, she was already 14 or 15, while Ginny was just 12. There is a considerable difference in physical maturity between girls of those two ages, especially where a 13-year-old boy's budding hormones are concerned.

has never commented/really thought positively about her appearance;

Ginny's appearance has never been described negatively in Harry's POV. Her descriptions are either positive or neutral. Here are few off the top of my head:

"bright brown eyes": Not just brown, but bright -- positive
"face glowing like the setting sun": quite poetic for just a blush -- positive
"small and red-haired": neutral, positive if you consider that Harry is attracted to small girls, like Cho
"long mane of red hair": positive
"eyes reflecting the firelight": romantic imagery -- positive
"curled like a cat on her chair": graceful, suggestive (why is he looking at her so closely anyway?) -- positive

and that there is nothing shippy in recieving a chocolate egg from her that her mother sent for Harry, nor is there from Ginny thinking that her brothers might help Harry talk with Sirius?

This is one of three scenes in which talking with Ginny results in Harry feeling more hopeful. It's not shippy in and of itself, but it's a good measure of the dynamic between them.

Personally, I think the chocolate egg is symbolic, but that's just my opinion.

Harry had just been thinking he's a bad kisser. HErmione tells him "Of course you're not." Ron turns to Hermione and says (about her knowing whether or not Harry, specifically is a bad kisser) "How do you know!?"

This is pretty black and white. Ron was instantly suspicious that Hermione knew that Harry, specifically was not a bad kisser, from her own experience with him. There's no plausible way to explain that away. Plain and simple: Ron does not think it out of the realm of possibility that Hermione and Harry could kiss.

Your explanation makes sense, but I still don't understand why Ron would suspect Harry and Hermione had been kissing behind his back. It's obviously Harry's first kiss.

Possible, yes -- likely, no. JKR might have just thrown that line in for laughs.