Draco Malfoy, misunderstood?

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Justin Etre
February 3rd, 2003, 10:52 am
I did a search and the closest thread I could find to this was about whether or not he was powerful, so I am starting this one up.

We first meet Draco Malfoy in the Robes shop, in which he tries to impress Harry, not belittle him. He asks Harry about having a broom and playing Quidditch, to find a common interest and spark up a conversation.
Then he says Hagrid is savage sort of. But didn't we all think that before we got to know him? And he is a servant of sorts.
Then when Harry says that his parents are dead, he doesn't seem sincere when he says sorry. But would you ooze sympathy with a stranger. And if he laid on the tears too thick it would have been obviousy insincere, and I think I wuld have acted the sam, saying sorry merely out of respect.


Then we see him at hogwarts; He introduces his friends (Crabbe and Goyle) to give Harry a sense of familiarity, and to humanise his 'bodyguards'. He introduces himself, and then Ron laughs at his name. Wouldn't you stand up for yourself if somebody laughed at your name? I know I would! So he choses the only attack he can muster up, he mocks Ron's poverty because that is all he knows about him. Harry chooses to defend Ron because he clued him in about the Wizarding world on the train.


The 'midnight duel' was Draco's way of getting Harry back for making him look foolish in his flying lesson.


The conflict with Hermione is due to his father as we find out in the second book. Lucius is ashamed of him for coming second to a 'mudblood' (hermione) and who knows how his father has treated him over the summer if (two months later) he is still rubbing salt into his son's wounds. Therefore it seems logical for him to be hostile towards her.


PoA, the Buckbeak incident, was out of pride again. He was trying to show off to his friends and when he got hhurt is wanted to lash out. And if he hadn't then there wouldn't have been a getaway ride for Sirius.


GoF, he warns Hermione to go farther into the woods, is he sickened by what he saw and doesn't want to see Hermione hurt? And he doesn't join in with the activity at the QWC, does he?
Also, the constant conversations he had with Rita Skeeter is likely again to be because he is jealous of Harry. He gets to be in the TWT even though there is already Cedric competing and he is young. So he lashes out. And lashing out at Hermione, maybe he has feelings for her and is seething with envy when it seems like she is flitting from Harry to Viktor.

The comment he makes on the train home (about Cedric's death) is probably out of fear of going back and facing his father after being beaten by Hermione in grades again. So he wants to leave the trio upset by his hands, so that he at least has something to impress his father with?

So that is my random rant over with. Agree? Disagree? Tell me! Post, Post, Post!!! Maybe I am talking out of my nose, and have read too much 'Poor Draco' fanfic. Maybe that tight shirt that Felton wore in Flourish and Blotts had screwed up my mind, but at least I have kinda tried to back up my theory with some book bits. Ten points for effort?

Magi
February 3rd, 2003, 12:23 pm
I agree on the first two paragraphs, but not the rest of it.

The 'midnight duel' was Draco's way of getting Harry back for making him look foolish in his flying lesson.
But why take Neville's Rememberall and threaten to hide it in the first place? Not something an ordinary person would do.

And picking a fight because he's been made to look foolish? He should suck it up and grow a thicker skin.

The conflict with Hermione is due to his father as we find out in the second book.Disagree. Draco hates Hermione because she is a mudblood, not because of his father. A mudblood who outperforms him at school. He's jealous, which fuels his anti-mudblood prejudice even more. Being anti-mudblood appears to be analogous to being racist: ie. unacceptable in modern society.

PoA, the Buckbeak incident, was out of pride again. He was trying to show off to his friends and when he got hhurt is wanted to lash out.
Overproud. He intentionally provoked a quick-tempered animal. Why is he the only one to get hurt in his class? Perhaps poor little Draco should learn some respect and self-control.

GoF, he warns Hermione to go farther into the woods, is he sickened by what he saw and doesn't want to see Hermione hurt?'Granger, they're after Muggles,' said Malfoy. 'D'you want to be showing off your knickers in mid-air? Because if you do, hang around... they're moving this way, and it would give us all a laugh.'

That doesn't sound friendly - or concerned. If anything, Draco wants Hermione to be publically humiliated.

Also, the constant conversations he had with Rita Skeeter is likely again to be because he is jealous of Harry.Jealousy doesn't warrant black-mail.

And lashing out at Hermione, maybe he has feelings for her and is seething with envy when it seems like she is flitting from Harry to Viktor.Again, not an excuse.

The comment he makes on the train home (about Cedric's death) is probably out of fear of going back and facing his father after being beaten by Hermione in grades again.Completely disagree. Draco and his cronies have fathers who are all Death Eaters. Draco has shown time and again, that he hates Muggles and mudbloods. The point of his comment wasn't about Cedric's death, but about the soon-to-begin culling of Muggles.

Dedalus
February 3rd, 2003, 12:35 pm
No, I don't think he's misunderstood. He wears himself on his sleeve, most of the time, for one. His actions might be excused, by what you say, but then what about his words? By the things he says, alone, he is plainly a little toff!

To start with, he may have tried to make friends with Harry, but nobody says he doesn't have/want friends. He does ... doesn't exactly stop him being a right young knobhead though, so it seems.

Consider everything he's said about mudbloods and purebloods, Hagrid, Lupin, Dumbledore, Harry and co (but both groups hate each other equally, so that balances out), Neville, just about anyone else ... how are they excused? True, some prejudices of his are shared by a lot of the wizarding world, but that doesn't excuse him. Jealousy or shame wouldn't excuse trying to get people fired etc., either!

Cat
February 3rd, 2003, 12:44 pm
I agree with Dedalus. I never misunderstood the fact that he's an unpleasant little gimp. He doesn't exactly hide his feelings, does he?

Picko
February 3rd, 2003, 12:57 pm
I definately don't think that Draco is misunderstood, the whole family is rotten to the core and he's just a nasty little git.

Camo
February 3rd, 2003, 1:23 pm
Firstly, I don't believe Malfoy is misunderstood. He is jealous of Harry and the friendships and fortune and skills that Harry posesses.

Secondly he is in Slytherin. Nobody who is a good person at heart would want to be in the house that has churned out more dark wizards than any other. The true Malfoy we see when Harry is not around (so malfoy thinks) is when Harry and Ron take the polyjuice potion. He doesn't treat Crabbe or Goyle with much respect and in the movie he finds a present of some sort and just steals it. I can't really see how this is goodness misunderstood.

Picko
February 3rd, 2003, 1:37 pm
Secondly he is in Slytherin. Nobody who is a good person at heart would want to be in the house that has churned out more dark wizards than any other. The true Malfoy we see when Harry is not around (so malfoy thinks) is when Harry and Ron take the polyjuice potion. He doesn't treat Crabbe or Goyle with much respect and in the movie he finds a present of some sort and just steals it. I can't really see how this is goodness misunderstood.

The fact that he is in Slytherin is not a valid argument. There would be hundreds, probably thousands of wizards from muggle backgrounds that would go to Hogwarts and not know what Slytherin represents.

Justin Etre
February 3rd, 2003, 2:52 pm
Magi et al. I am not saying that the things he has done are justified, I am just saying, maybe he isn't as malicious as we'd all like to think.

gobbledegook
February 3rd, 2003, 6:14 pm
Quote:
The true Malfoy we see when Harry is not around (so malfoy thinks) is when Harry and Ron take the polyjuice potion. He doesn't treat Crabbe or Goyle with much respect and in the movie he finds a present of some sort and just steals it.

Draco doesn't steal anything in the book, I'm wondering why Chirs Columbus added that part in the movie.

No one is suggesting Draco is a nice kid, but he's not really a evil git. His WORDS are malicious but I don't think he really hates the trio. He uses words to hurt others because it makes him feel superior when people's feeling are hurt. The trio beats him in everything, he can only get back at them by insulting them.

White_Rose
February 3rd, 2003, 8:09 pm
I personally believe he is trying to uphold his fathers wishes of being a true Slytherin. His father was cloe-in with Voldemort, so it seems only reasonable that his son would hate their master's destroyer. I personally don't think hes misunderstood, just they don't get along well. Conlfict of interests.

1MelissaPotter
February 3rd, 2003, 8:13 pm
Its not evil, hes just a bully. The way he says things, makes him seem rude- which he is. I think he hates Harry so much because of jealousy, Harrys famous, Harry gets around rules because of this, and other things he does annoys Malfoy. I think he may become evil one day, he speaks of Voldemort in an almost respectful manner or something. On the train at the end of GoF when he says how the Dark Lord has returned. But no matter what Harry will always be better than him.

Cat
February 3rd, 2003, 8:27 pm
Originally posted by gobbledegook

No one is suggesting Draco is a nice kid, but he's not really a evil git. His WORDS are malicious but I don't think he really hates the trio. He uses words to hurt others because it makes him feel superior when people's feeling are hurt. The trio beats him in everything, he can only get back at them by insulting them.

Well, of course he's not evil. He's just a kid. 'Evil' is easy to say but very difficult to apply.

But not being evil doesn't make him my favourite character. I don't think anybody thinks he's evil right now, so it's hard to see why he's so misunderstood. We know he's a rotten sod. Anybody acting like that character, whether they're jealous or not, would be being a bit of a muppet.

crafty girl
February 3rd, 2003, 10:44 pm
I think Draco is a nastly little kid...But he's just that: a kid. At this point, I think he could go either way. I'm sure he treats everyone so shabbily because that's how he was raised, but around his age is when you start to question to parents values and either embrace them or rebel against them. He seems like a bright enough person not to take things for granted, so maybe he will question the wisdom of his father's prejudices and change his ways. Either that or he really is the little b**tard that he appears to be.

applepie15
February 3rd, 2003, 10:48 pm
Originally posted by White_Rose
I personally believe he is trying to uphold his fathers wishes of being a true Slytherin. His father was cloe-in with Voldemort, so it seems only reasonable that his son would hate their master's destroyer. I personally don't think hes misunderstood, just they don't get along well. Conlfict of interests.

I agree and I also think he is jealous of Harry.

i wish i knew
February 4th, 2003, 1:20 am
I think he's not too bad.
Wanting to be in Slytherin: What would his father say if he got put into Gryfoondor or HUFFLEPUFF!

All he wants is attention from the trio. He can't be nice to them, but why not ignore them? HE definately wants attention!

He has nothing bad to say about Hermione at the Yule BAll! IT says in the book that she looked beautiful.......... maybehe thought so too!

I think he is misunderstood. We know from Dobby that Lucius is terrible. MAybe he is just as bad to Draco. He could be beating him at home from talking about HArry and "Mudblood". He caould be beaten for a # of reasons.

He warns the trio in GOF. Sure he doesn't say it politely. What wouldeveryone at school say if they heard he was actually nice..... or worse his father hearing this.

MEan is the only thing he knows how to be..... thats how he was raised.

Of course he makes fun of Ron. He never wanted to be friends with him. Only HArry and maaybe Hermione. Why does he mention them so much in Florish and Bolts??

familiar
February 4th, 2003, 1:41 am
Draco is a big unknown. He could even be intended to be a future dark lord should JKR write more books after the future series - but I doubt that. I think his parents probably neglect him, then are over-strict when they do spend time with him. I also seem to remember reading that Death-Eaters stop caring about anyone or anything. If that is the case, then Lucious is tolerating Draco because it looks good to have a family. I don't actually believe that Lucious has any warm feelings toward Draco at all.

Given that Draco has all this behind him, he probably learned very early that he could never get his father to like him because that just isn't in the nature of a DE. He takes it out on others, then, by bullying them.

But is Draco misunderstood? I don't think so. Unless you want to psycho-analyize every person who bullies you. He is a bully, and he also seems to be emotionally less mature than most of the other kids. However, that is no reason for the other kids to say "poor Draco, I understand why you are like that please come hang out with us" when they know he will be mean and bitter.

enderwigginout
February 4th, 2003, 2:51 am
I think in JKR-verse, Draco is not meant to be considered misunderstood. He is supposed to be a mini-Lucius and that's all. We haven't gotten much insight into his character and I doubt we will. It would be nice if he turns around after realizing what a bunch of hoowie his father and the Death Eaters are full of. I'm not holding out for it though. Not with his evil support system of Crab and Goyle. I think they are just the local evil from within to support the action while the looming world evil--Voldemort and the Death Eaters nip from without.

WhiteSlash
February 4th, 2003, 3:17 am
Everyone has some good in side of them...Don't they?...Draco...I dunno...Voldemort...He was Tom Riddle...Lucius...Nah, that name. Also, Draco can't be misunderstood.

LizardLaugh
February 4th, 2003, 3:56 am
I don't think Draco is misunderstood. He is an immature little git, even if his father is terrible and he has a bad home life. He still chooses to be a little sh*t. I think the *real* question is whether or not he is redeemable. crafty girl made an excellent point. Draco is reaching an age where he either questions his upbringing and rebels, or accepts the default his father has given him. I think he is redeemable, but not easily or completely (for instance, I don't see a D/Hr 'ship happening after all of the horrible things he has said to Hermione or becoming best buds with Harry and Ron). I do think he can join the side of good. However, I think to be credible, we have to start seeing some signs of a change of heart soon. .

I_Luv_Snakes
February 4th, 2003, 11:58 am
Yeah, a lot of very good points made.

But, I think he is just evil at heart, most likely to do with the way he was brought up, of course. For example, all his family have been in Slytherin for generations, so he was brought up with those same 'qualities'...

Xander
February 4th, 2003, 5:22 pm
Well honestly if you really look at the characters, I don't think any of them are really a hundred percent evil, or a hundred percent good , mostly everyone are just varying shades of grey.

Sinistra
February 4th, 2003, 6:30 pm
OOP should have Draco making his intentions clear. Now Voldy is back, and people are going to be taking sides. Will Draco do what's easy--go along with his father--or what's right--and battle the evil forces? He could go with the good side and still be a self-centered spoilt git. Or he could change. Many kids change during their teen years. Draco has a lot of choices to make and we may see some of them.

HbAznKyootie
February 9th, 2003, 6:36 pm
good point, sinatra. i think the next 3 books will decide whether malfoy will be leaning towards the right side or the easy side.

hpangel102
February 9th, 2003, 7:02 pm
At first Malfoy wanted to befriend Harry. i.e: While waiting to be sorted, he talked to Harry about being his friend. Maybe he was a little rude about it, but he still wanted Harry on his side. Once Harry declined, Malfoy wanted to get revenge and thus, all the fighting happened.

Snowangel
February 9th, 2003, 9:24 pm
Draco wanted to be friends with Harry, but his offer of friendship was really insulting to people who are outside his idea of who's acceptable. He basically said that Harry shouldn't be hanging out with the wrong sort of people. ie. people from poor families, muggle-borns, etc. He's a very prejudiced person (yes, this is a result of his upbringing as is the case for most prejudiced people). I don't think his offer of friendship shows that he's got redeemable qualities. Rather, it shows the sort of person he is: narrow and closed-minded.

Moonlight
February 9th, 2003, 10:57 pm
The way someone is brought up can effect how they act.
You almost made him seem human Justin (30 points for effort:D) But there are so many things he does merely because he's evil and thinks his soo great! Most of the things he says about Hagrid are unprovoked and all of the things he says about Lupin are just plain mean!
He could've have been tought to act like that by his parents but doesn't he have a conscience to tell him what he does is wrong!

Justin Etre
February 10th, 2003, 2:36 pm
Originally posted by Lavender*Quill
You almost made him seem human Justin (30 points for effort:D)
Yay me! *Does the happy dance*:hug: :hug:
I have does very spiteful things in the past (usually to myself). I'm sure that at some point in all our lives we have done something we are not too proud of.

And yes, Draco's past will have had a profound effect on who he is. We saw from the scene in Borgin and Burkes that his father makes him feel unloved and inadequate.

And from book 4, QWC, we can safely assume that Narcissa is only in love with herself.

So who did he have to turn to in his childhood, for the first 10 years of his life? Crabbe and Goyle, who idolized him, turning him into the bog-headed arrogant little sod that he seems to be.

But I think that given half a chance, he will show his true colours, and we will see a tinge of red and gol beginning to grow...

RonFan24
February 10th, 2003, 8:40 pm
I have s few responses to previous posts:
*True, nothing is simply black and white.
*Draco may change, though that leaves Harry without a minor foil.
*Just because someone is from Slytherin doesn't automatically make them evil. It's just stated that the house has more of its former students turn evil than the rest.
*I think his behavior greatly reflects how he was raised and his desire to make his father proud.
*I think some of his malicious remarks to the trio are out of jealousy for Harry's fame, Hermione's academic achievements, and maybe Ron's happy home life and/or close friendships.
*I don't think Draco like Hermione and that is the reason he's mean to her. When kids that age like someone they tease, but they're not as cruel as he is too her. It's true he could be extra mean to her to cover up the fact that he likes a Muggle born, but I doubt it. He's too mean to everyone, including crabb and Goyle, his so-called friends.
*I think Dracos distaste for Harry is more than pride from being snubbed when he offered Harry his friendship.
*Now here's my new idea: did anyone think that Lucious knew that Harry was going to Hogwarts the same year as his own son and made Draco attmept to befriend him? Maybe Lucious knows how much of a threat Harry is to his Dark Lord, but by becoming friends with Draco, Lucious and the rest of the Death Eaters could lure Harry to their side. This way, Voldemort could very easily be brought back and there would be less of a threat against him.

Remus Lupin
February 10th, 2003, 10:27 pm
Oh most deffinatly! I think Draco is more the vitem of his upbringing than genetic "Bad guyness" I mean if you had Lucius for a father (who would more than likly sell his sons soul to the devil in order to get what he wants) You'd do as he says, and being your father, you'd look up to him. Furthermore, his views would become your views, especially at an impressionable age as 10 or 11.

dorcasderr
February 11th, 2003, 11:42 pm
All true, but Draco has another adult he looks up to, who has allied himself to the good side. That is Snape, with a personality equally as charming as Draco's. But he might help Draco make the right choices and see Voldemort and his Death Eaters for what they are. This next year may be an agonizing one for Draco, if he uses his head.

Moonlight
February 12th, 2003, 11:35 am
I've been reading through GoF and I found a peculiar speech said by Hagrid, I thought it would be helpful:

''He'll accept anyone into hogwarts as long as they've got the talent. Knows people can turn out OK even if their families weren't all that respectable''

Hagrid was talking about himself at the time but it could also account for a certain blondie we know...:whistle:

Justin Etre
February 12th, 2003, 12:52 pm
Originally posted by Lavender*Quill (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=169633#post169633))
I've been reading through GoF and I found a peculiar speech said by Hagrid, I thought it would be helpful:

''He'll accept anyone into hogwarts as long as they've got the talent. Knows people can turn out OK even if their families weren't all that respectable''

Hagrid was talking about himself at the time but it could also account for a certain blondie we know...:whistle:

*gives Lavender a big squishie hug*
I never made that connection

Eowyn
February 12th, 2003, 4:48 pm
I've never thought of Draco as "evil", I just consider him an annoying little...brat. *uses polite language since this is a PG community* heh.
While I agree that his father probably treats him horribly, I don't see this as an excuse for him to bully other people. It probably is a contributing factor to his rottenness, but it doesn't make it right. Harry has been mistreated all his life, and look at how differently he handles it. He doesn't feel the need to make others miserable just because he has a crummy family life. There's a huge contrast between the two boys' methods of handling their situations.
I have several friends who were abused throughout childhood and adolescence, and a couple of them seem to think the world owes them something. They make others feel bad and then try to use their past problems as an excuse. That just doesn't cut it, in my book. My other friends who have been abused have tried to learn from their experiences by being as kind as possible to everyone they meet. You can get bitter or you can get better. :)

HogwartsChaplain
February 12th, 2003, 7:42 pm
:yup: There's no excuse for Draco's behavior. I hope in book 5 he decides to change his ways.

Moonlight
February 12th, 2003, 7:48 pm
I hope not. He was so funny, it'd be a shame to make him come to the right side. Who else will torment Harry, and from who else will we get the great blasts of sarcastic comments?
It would be a great pity to deprive Snape of such a good pet in such a sad time.

dorcasderr
February 12th, 2003, 8:09 pm
If Draco turns to the good side it doesn't necessarily mean that his whole personality will become sweetness and light. His well trained acid tongue and sarcastic manner will take a lot of taming no matter where his loyalties may lie.

Justin Etre
February 13th, 2003, 9:06 am
Woah, who says Draco is coming to the good side, I just want him to escape from being under his father's thumb. Baby steps people, baby steps. (What About Bob?)

Weatherby
February 13th, 2003, 11:26 am
His behaviour regarding Cedric's death was despicable.
He may change his ways (doubtful) but as for misunderstanding him in the first 4 books I don't think I follow.
I mistook labelling Hermione a mudblood as a racist comment?
Not to mention the bullying and cruelty to animals.

Pirategirl
February 13th, 2003, 1:51 pm
Come on, I think JKR set the character up to be the nasty little git of the class (doesn't every school class have a trouble maker) and if she'd make him change, the books would loose something. Harry might have "big" enemies like Voldemort, but the day-to-day-hassle comes from gits like Draco and Snape and that's what most readers can identify with.
Besides, I've met two (female) Dracos in real life, both were about 18-19 years old and didn't question their narrow-minded, big-headed ways of thinking at all. One had been brainwashed by her parents as a kid and didn't bother at all to try to see the world from a different angle and the other one was the arche-typical spoilt rich brat who thought that she could buy the world. I'm not saying that those girls were thoroughly bad and perhaps Draco *might* change to a better way of life one day, but I don't think that being 13-14 now might necessarily mean to grow up and begin questioning your parents' values. Especially not when life is materially comfortable as is Draco's with a Daddy who can buy him into a Quidditch team without as much as batting an eyelid over the costs.

Wild Rose
February 13th, 2003, 3:24 pm
I think Draco is a stupid brat, on the most basic level. If something drastic happened, he might actually open his eyes, and start behaving like a human being, but he is essentially a spoilt brat.
I understand why. It's not right, but I think it is understandable.

@-'-,-------------

dorcasderr
February 14th, 2003, 3:38 am
I'm not saying Draco WILL turn to the right side or even that he should, OR that I think he is misunderstood. But I think should he see the dark side for what it is, and have second thoughts about it, he does have a role model...Snape; and HE certainly is still a nemesis to Harry and all the nice kids in Gryffindor and probably every house but Slytherin.

lanifiel
February 14th, 2003, 6:26 am
Draco is not good, does not want to be good, should never be good and is not misunderstodd, he is Evil and he enjoys it!!

Jonesy
February 15th, 2003, 4:16 pm
Draco is a Malfoy. I think that's reason enough that he is the way he is. From birth he only understand the world his family let him grew up in.

He seems to be a very mean character but I think there's a bit of good inside of him. unlike his father.

Perdita
February 15th, 2003, 5:36 pm
Originally posted by gobbledegook (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=159155#post159155))
Quote:
No one is suggesting Draco is a nice kid, but he's not really a evil git. His WORDS are malicious but I don't think he really hates the trio. He uses words to hurt others because it makes him feel superior when people's feeling are hurt. The trio beats him in everything, he can only get back at them by insulting them.


A few months ago when i posted on a similar thread about Draco's evilness, I would have agreed with you.

Now, having re-read GoF, I have to say that Rowling drew the line for this character in the last couple of scenes. At the final feast, when Dumbledore described Cedric's tragic, yet heroic, death, everyone in the hall showed their compassion, pride and appreciation for that boy. Everyone, except Malfoy and the other Slytherins. As much as Draco might hate Harry, one would expect that he would have an ounce of decency to mourn the death, and celebrate the courage, of another boy, who was his schoolmate. After all, a boy was MURDERED! for crying out loud. But Draco did not have such a primal humanistic reaction.

Later, on the train, I think this is where it really shows that Draco has chosen which side he wants to fight for. He may be influenced by his father; he may have been mis-educated as he was growing up with Lucius and Narcissa as his parent; but, in the end, it is still his choice. I think that this train scene is a foreshadowing of what character Draco will become in the future books.

I know that there is this rumour that Harry and Draco will work together. But, we don't know under what circumstances would make this happen. I don't see much hope for Draco. Sorry.

GoF is, in my opinion, the turning point of the story. It's where we see a lot of changes or affirmations in characters, Hermione and Ron, for example. Not to mention Snape and Sirius, and their feud. For Draco, I think that this is it. He's going bad!!!

Justin,

I think you are a very perceptive reader, and I was very intrigued by your theory. We read the story, as seen through Harry's perspective, so what we know depends on what Rowling lets Harry to know. We could very well have been mis-reading Draco this whole time.

I think that your arguments hold up until about book three, and like I've been saying, I think that number four is the decisive book.

I agree with Magi's post.
.
.

Moonlight
February 15th, 2003, 7:43 pm
Interesting...Not only do we see Harry's character developing, we also see those around him (including Malfoy). Like Dumbledore said: ''It the choices that make us what we are.'' Or something like that...
But what if, in book 4, Draco did not show respect to Cedric because of fear of Voldermort, and of fear of what Voldie might do to him.

I know I'm arguing for a complete looser/git/:censored: :p
But I want to see all the possible theories behind his behave.

Perdita
February 15th, 2003, 10:03 pm
Okay, I checked the book and here is how Rowling described the scenes.

1. Dining Hall (Highly disputable example)

Dumbledore says: "I would like you all, please, to stand, and raise your glasses, to Cedric Diggory."
They did it, all of them; the benches scraped as everyone in the Hall stodd, and raised their goblets, and echoed, in one loud, low, rumbling voice, "Cedrid Diggory." ...Later, Dumbledore tells the students that Cedric was murdered, that they should not deny that fact, which would be an insult to Cedric's death. Harry observes: "Stunned and frightended, every face in theHall was turned towards Dumbledore now...or almost every face. Over at the Slytherin table, Harry saw Draco Malfoy muttering something to Crabbe and Goyle. Harry felt a hot, sick swoop of anger in his stomach. He forced himself to look back at Dumbledore."

- GoF, 626, Canadian Raincoast hardcover edition

2. Train

"You (Hermione) caught some pathetic reporter, and Potter's Dumbledore's favourite boy again. Big deal....Trying not to think about it, are we?" said Malfoy softly, looking around all three of them. "Trying to pretend it hasn't happened?"
"Get out," said Harry...
"You've picked the losing side, Potter! I warned you! I told you you ought to choose your company more carefully, remember? When we met on the train, first day at Hogwarts? I told you not to hang around with riff-raff like this!" He jerked his head at Ron and Hermione. "Too late now, Potter! They'll be the first togo, no the Dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first!..."

- GoF, 632,

In the first example, we only see what Harry sees. And what he saw happening with Malfoy and Crabbe could be easily misconstrued as an act of disrespect to Dumbledore, as well as Cedric. But, we don't know what those two boys were talking about. Harry thinks that they're up to no good because he knows that Crabbe Sr. and Lucius are confirmed deatheaters. We can easily assume that Malfoy and Crabbe would follow their fathers, but we don't know for sure.

In the second example, I think that it is important to note that Malfoy has brounght the situation a full circle back to the beginning. I see this as Malfoy declaring for a second time his allegiance to the darker side. I say darker side bec. he isn't technically a deatheater yet. I see this as confirmation from an older and more knowledgeable Draco Malfoy, not this spoiled little brat that he was in SS.

One could also argue that Malfoy was just trying to impress Crabbe and Goyle, or at least, to try and not appear to be starting to side with Harry. But i find that very unlikely. It's just the way that said those things, about making choices and accusing Harry of making the wrong choice.

Furthermore! Malfoy mentions the fact that Voldemort will kill all those muggles and muggle-lovers, and that to stay alive Harry should have joined him. Well, one could argue that Malfoy is only siding with Voldemort now because he is afraid for his life.

Which brings me back to my first question, from a few months back: If Draco Malfoy had to commit murder, such as Ron or Hermione, would he do it?

Also, does the fact that Crabbe and Goyle, who are following him around everywhere he goes, have some bearing on his loathsome behaviour? Perhaps they are working as spies to help keep Malfoy "in line?"

I am so confused now.

nfh_aftran
February 18th, 2003, 12:37 am
I don't completely agree with everything you said, but i do think that he has a thing for hermione, and that he's not as bad as he seems

lanifiel
February 18th, 2003, 12:47 am
Oh My Gods! Where do you get that he has a 'thing' for Herimone?!?!

Dracofan4ever
February 18th, 2003, 4:50 am
Originally posted by nfh_aftran (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=175720#post175720))
I don't completely agree with everything you said, but i do think that he has a thing for hermione, and that he's not as bad as he seems

I agree, I think he like's her too!.;)

lanifiel
February 18th, 2003, 4:52 am
For what reasons!?!? Give me some? Dont just say you think he likes her!!

LizardLaugh
February 18th, 2003, 6:13 am
Hey, you people who think Draco likes Hermione, go over to the 'Who will fall in love with who' thread over in The Great Hall. We need something besides R/Hr and H/Hr to talk about. Besides, I am curious as all get out about why people like this particular 'ship.

hmmm... the more I think about it, the more it looks Draco really may be totally lost. Especially after Perdita's post. I think it would be cool if he could be saved in the end, but... it doesn't look like it will happen. I think it is possible, and I posted something to that effect earlier in the thread. However, when you really look at the things he has said and done... things don't look so promising for the redemption of Draco's soul.

SiriusBlack
February 18th, 2003, 10:15 am
That's a good idea, a change of topic for a while. I was getting tired with the debates about H/Hr or R/Hr. I'll bring it up. Why do you think though? That Draco likes Hermione. He treats her like an under human, a deformed person. He teases her like crazy, and he wants her dead, in COS. And he's jealous, he's was complaining to his father.

lanifiel
February 18th, 2003, 10:18 am
Exactly, it doesnt make any sense! This is far beyond a simple 'I like you so I'll hate you' thing. He wants to kill her and would given half a chance...

SiriusBlack
February 18th, 2003, 10:21 am
He's also ranting about how good Voldemort is, and wanting to help the heir of Slytherin. This is not the Ron and Hermione type of argument, it is far beyond that.

lanifiel
February 18th, 2003, 10:23 am
Again I agree with my most esteemed colleague. When Ron and Herimone bicker it has an air of nothing about it, as if they are doing it to fill space, but when Malfoy goes off on his death to the mudbloods spiel its just disturbing. I mean can you say social services for the kid...

SiriusBlack
February 18th, 2003, 10:38 am
I agree there with you as well Lanifiel. Lots we're finding here to say againsst Malfoy. Plus, we have to remember he's Lucius's son, and Lucius was in the inner circle of Voldemort, Lucicus would never allow that, and by the way Draco's grown up in a DE's house, he would probably have no respect for muggles, let alone, good wizards and witches.

lanifiel
February 18th, 2003, 10:41 am
Exactly! Its almost in his genetic structure to hate Mud Bloods, as he sees them! Its been brain washed into his mind since he was born, theres no escaping it, he now associates hating muggles and mudbloods with pleasing his father, which is something he is desperate to do!!

SiriusBlack
February 18th, 2003, 10:59 am
And he looks down upon wizards who care aobut muggles, like the Weasleys for example. Plus, he's a rich spoilt brat. He wouldn't do anything for anyone, he has no manners, and he treats people like rubbish , and makes followers like Crabbe and Goyle. The only girl fit for him is Pansy Parkinson.:rasp:

Moonlight
February 18th, 2003, 1:54 pm
Sirius, I think Pansy would be quite flattered that you said that.
Originally posted by lanifiel (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=176497#post176497))
Exactly! Its almost in his genetic structure to hate Mud Bloods, as he sees them! It's been brain washed into his mind since he was born, there's no escaping it, he now associates hating muggles and mudbloods with pleasing his father, which is something he is desperate to do!!


Lani you've just given us proof (unintentionally)that it's all his fathers fault. All he wants is that his father could be proud of him, like any other kid would. So at heart he really is a 'nice' person who only wants to respect his family and their --rather malicous-- beleifs.

lanifiel
February 18th, 2003, 8:01 pm
Actions dictate a persons character apart from their feelings. Thats the first rule of Ethics. The boy is evil because of his actions and decisions in life. He very well might have some good feelings in him (i doubt it) but unless he shows them then he is doomed to be an evil person. If he has such feelings he needs to show them, not keep suppressing them. Your argument is faulty, as is your logic I'm afraid Lavender*Quill...

Fuchsia
February 18th, 2003, 8:17 pm
We're not just our feelings but what we do with them.
It is one thing to know what you are doing is wrong and have morales and another to go out and do it anyway 'cause you're going along with a crowd. "But---but peer pressure!" I don't buy it.

And Draco would *never* date someone not socially acceptable to his circle. If he liked them he still wouldn't do it.
He's gonna get him a trophy wife.

Moonlight
February 18th, 2003, 8:45 pm
Originally posted by lanifiel (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=177041#post177041))
Actions dictate a persons character apart from their feelings. Thats the first rule of Ethics.

But who taught him his morals and how to treat people? Who taught him how to react to his feelings?

Throughout the first decade of his life he had only his parents to learn from and we can only guess how good an example they set:rolleyes:. But even after this the only people he came in contact with were slytherins who were (most probably) brought up the same way as he was.

I do not beleive they have any personalities of their own. Nor any characters. They are only trying to mimck there parents, and trying to acheive what their parents sought. They have been brainwashed, and their emotions seemed to have been filtered out of them. Draco is only one example of the this slytherine generation.:sigh:

lightning
February 18th, 2003, 11:17 pm
Yes, he's very misunderstood. Eventually he'll grow out of the **** his arse-of-a-father taught him.

DarlingChild
February 18th, 2003, 11:42 pm
I think Draco is a very confused and lost little boy. Eventually he'll come to his senses...I hope. But, judging from the way his father turned out, I don't think a change of heart is anywhere in the near future for Draco Malfoy.

lanifiel
February 18th, 2003, 11:49 pm
IF Draco was good or had any remotely good thoughts in his mind or heart why would the sorting hat put him in slytherin? His ambition overrides all compassion...

Moonlight
February 19th, 2003, 10:23 am
Well that is true...

Lani you're too good at debating, I'm finding it difficult to find proof for my argument:smile:.

Justin Etre
February 19th, 2003, 12:41 pm
Lavender, I'm right there along side you! Dracio is very overshadowed, hiding behind a regime, comforming to the social influences he is surrounded by. He needs to show a little strngth.

I refuse point blank to hate him until I first of all meet the real Draco, and secondly, I see him commit an actb of evil.

So far, I blame the parents. (Freud! Freud! Mr. Id? Yes or no?)

Scheet
February 19th, 2003, 12:42 pm
Rumors declare Harry and Draco will fight Voldemort toghether, quite inpossible, but could be.

SiriusBlack
February 19th, 2003, 12:54 pm
Rumors, but I doubt them. I will be more like Draco will fight alongside Voldemort while Harry will fight alongside Dumbledore. Rivalry and the battle between good and evil.:clappy:

Moonlight
February 19th, 2003, 1:15 pm
Rumours will remain rumours until proven otherwise!
I can not see Draco teaming up with Harry, but I do want to see Draco showing his own character and personalty.

So far he's a puppet in the hands of his father. The problem is he allows himself to be used. True he has faults of his own such as jealousy, too much ambition, and far too much pride for his family name and situation. And true, those faults have been nutured and fed by his father so they can grow and weed out all the good feelings inside him (okay I'm not helping, am I?).

We need to see the reasons behind his actions. Why does he hate Harry? He's Jealous, and there's nothing wrong with a certain amount of jelousy! Why does he hate muggle borns? Becuase of all the rubbish He's father taught him. there's more I'm sure but I can't think of anything else.

SiriusBlack
February 19th, 2003, 1:26 pm
It's not a certain amount, it's too much. Draco isn't a puppet, he has his choices. And he chooses to be on the evil side. It seems like Crabbe and Goyle are puppets of his, he like bullying, and ordering people around. And you can't just say he hates muggles, he was on killing terms, was saying he'd have helped the heir of Slytherin, and is absolutely nasty, a spoilt brat with too much money, and he wants Hermione dead. And he was actually laughing, when Cedric had died.:angry:

Moonlight
February 19th, 2003, 1:35 pm
No, he's just all talk. He likes to see people intimidated but he hasn't got the heart to actully do--ie kill-- what he threatens to do.

dorcasderr
February 19th, 2003, 3:30 pm
I think there is still a possibility that Draco might change for the better but the window of opportunity is getting smaller and smaller. IF it is to happen I think that some sort of catastrophic event must take place in his life...soon, or he is lost forever.

Beatrice Bottbean
February 20th, 2003, 6:56 am
I have worked with male teenage "delinquent" boys before and refuse to believe a word of what everyone says about them. No matter what they are involved in or what they have done, there is no reason to stamp them rotten forever. Sure, sometimes they are guilty of whatever they are charged with, but if they are told at that age that they are nothing but bad, then more than likely, they will come to believe it and be just that - nothing but bad. I know Draco has made a lot of mistakes thus far but that doesn't mean he can't change - look at Snape. I don't think Dumbledore has given up on Draco or the others either.

Draco was raised with a very backward set of values and seems to hero-worship his father. My inclination is to believe that if he does anything truly evil, such as taking another's life as someone else suggested, his motivation will be to impress his father. We know from the conversation he had with his father in Book 2 that he has a lot of resentment towards the others. We also know from that same conversation that his father doesn't give him the Duddy-kins treatment, to say the least.

I also think we can infer from the fact that she did not come when summoned that Narcissa is not a Death Eater. I think women can be Death Eaters b/c I get the impression that the LeStranges were a couple and there was a place for them in the circle but both Malfoys did not come when summoned. I can also not think of a time when she is mentioned in connection with Voldemort like her husband is - it always seems to be only him. There could be many reasons why she isn't but for now, it at least seems like she isn't. Draco also seems to be very fond of his mother, given the way he defends her when Harry says something about the way she looks like she has just smelled something funny. So while I think we still need to know more about Narcissa and the rest of Draco's home life, I am still holding on to some hope for him - hoping there is more to him than the spoiled brat we have seen thus far.

Finally, Draco is around the age where most teenagers begin to question their upbringing and family values and choose to either accept them or reject them. I think, maybe with Snape's help, we will at least see him learn to think for himself rather than continually act as Lucius's Mini-Malfoy.

lanifiel
February 20th, 2003, 7:03 am
So then are we going to see Harry question his upbringng and realise the true way to happiness is to carve it out of society in blood?

SiriusBlack
February 20th, 2003, 8:43 am
Draco's not just all talk. You can say he was about to get Buckbeak killed. And Hagrid kicked out. He'd do about anything to get Harry expelled. He told Prof.Mcgonagall in book one about Harry sneaking out with a dragon at night. And also didn't turn up to the midnight duel to get Harry in trouble. He's done a lot to get Harry in trouble, and he was actually laughing at Cedric's funeral. That's not talk Eleanora, that's really bad already. HE WAS LAUGHING FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. And he was saying in his own words in the common room that he wanted Hermione dead and wanted to help the heir. Then, when Hermione gets attacked, he walks around laughing.

Justin Etre
February 20th, 2003, 9:12 am
Sirius Black, if you are so adament that he was laugjhing, please insert the quote from the book, because I remember him whispering with Crabbe and Goyle, but no laughing.

I think you have either misread or do something which I do a lot in films, where you think an action/line should be there so much that you actually convince yourself that it is there.

If Iam wrong I will wholeheartedly admit so, and beg forgiveness, but aas the situation stands, I challenge your statement.

lanifiel
February 20th, 2003, 9:18 am
Ok, Justin I can agree with you on the laughing bit but everything else is a valid argument against Draco being a nice guy.

HOWEVER, that being said I thought I'd drop this on you because I thought it was neat :)

lanifiel
February 20th, 2003, 9:23 am
Whoops forgot the attachment :o

SiriusBlack
February 20th, 2003, 9:29 am
Oops, sorry on that one. Just checked the book, it's actually that he did not stand up to raise a goblet or anything, and was smirking and muttering to Crabbe and Goyle.

But there's this other quote
You've picked the losing side Potter.........................Too late now Potter! They'll be the first to go(Hermione and Ron), now the Dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-Lovers first! Well-second- Diggory was the f- Page 790-791. GOF British Edition

Isn't that bad enough, just by the way he talking?? Just read that by yourself, didn't have time to type it all in.

Justin Etre
February 20th, 2003, 9:47 am
lanifiel, virtual hug for you, I love that image!
Where did you get it???

As for you, Sirius Black, nya nya *does the infamous happy dance*
He is messed up, but what he said on the train is likely to be striking out in anger because he is having to go and spend summer wiuth his 'father', who is likely to have been treating him worse and weorse over the years.

Just tell Sirius Black, do you see no gaps in his hard exterior, can you not see that maybe he isn't being true to himself?

I mean, has he ever done something against any of the trio one on one?
(I can't think right now, so am likely to be wrong)

lanifiel
February 20th, 2003, 9:49 am
Friend drew it, shes got a thing for bad boys turning good...

Beatrice Bottbean
February 20th, 2003, 4:41 pm
In response to the comment about Harry questioning his upbringing, hasn't he already done that? He was brought up by the Dursleys and I don't exactly see him subscribing to their value system. Seeking out magical ability while is Harry's way of finding out who he is but necessarily also involves the rejection of everything the Dursleys once told him was important in life. We even see minor bits of this search for self-identity and rebellion in Harry's other Gryffindor friends - Ron expresses resentment about the fact that he is poor, Fred and George seek to start a joke shop rather than join the Ministry of Magic, and Hermione manages to get her teeth magically altered against her parent's wishes. Why is it so hard to believe the same ideas could be going through Draco's head? Look at what happened to Crouch, Jr. Isn't it possible that Draco could go seeking his father-figure in Snape? Especially as Lucius becomes so caught up on his quest for power from Voldemort that he has even less time for his own son?

I am not saying that a good future for Draco is certain or even probable. The odds are, in many ways, stacked against him. All I am saying is that it is possible and deliberately ignoring the possibility in someone never accomplishes anything.

lanifiel
February 20th, 2003, 8:42 pm
No, I think you've made an important point here. Harry's true personality shines through the Dursleys lifestyle and upbringing, he is a good kid no matter how hes been raised and what his guardians put value on. Draco however has thrived in the environment his Father has created and never sought to question anything in his life. He enjoys the comfort and power he has! If he was good he would of shown it at Hogwarts, the one place where he might of been able to forge himself a new begining, but he didnt and he never will. Now Beatrice, I dont mean to say that your wrong about the teenage delinquent being rotten forever thing. But what if they like who they are when they are rotten? This, I think, is the point that most 'Draco-turning-good' supporters seem to miss, I think he genuinly likes himself when he can hold power over others and inflict pain upon them through it...

Justin Etre
February 20th, 2003, 9:04 pm
We all fear power in our society these days. We would rather follow the pack, and prefer to pity those who are weaker than us than admire those above us

Moonlight
February 20th, 2003, 9:32 pm
Originally posted by Sirius Black (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=179884#post179884))
Isn't that bad enough, just by the way he talking?? Just read that by yourself, didn't have time to type it all in.


:huh: isn't that what I just said, he's all talk. What he did to Hagrid was through his father, he didn't do it himself (directly).
He goes on and on about killing Mudbloods, hating muggles etc. But we haven't exactly seen him do anything.
So far Sirius you haven't completely shattered my argument, better try a different angle:smile:

Cool pic Lani, please forward my compliments to your friend.

lanifiel
February 20th, 2003, 10:25 pm
Originally posted by Justin (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=180615#post180615))
We all fear power in our society these days. We would rather follow the pack, and prefer to pity those who are weaker than us than admire those above us


Speak for yourself Justin, I enjoy the power I have at work and in my life :)

DracoLuver69
February 20th, 2003, 10:51 pm
i agree in most ways except the whole hermione thing. yes, people are mean and rude to the people they like (Even i do that), but in the CoS, he wanted her dead! i mean, the guy i like can be a you-know-what sometimes, but i do not want him dead! but i must agree with the thing about the tight shirt in flourish andblotts! that kid is sssssssssssooooooooooo frickin hott!

DracoLuver69
February 20th, 2003, 11:00 pm
ok, for all of you who think is not misunderstood, try this:
he grew up with a mean and evil father who dosent seem to care for him much, and he is a supporter of the dark lord
and also, draco has not really met anyone whom he can open up to and be a good person!
ie. father=evil, Crabbe and Goyle= have never had an original thought!

DracoLuver69
February 20th, 2003, 11:05 pm
ok, this is my main point. I DO NOT CARE IF HE IS GOOD OR BAD! ALL I CARE ABOUT IS THE FACT THAT THIS KID, IS THE HOTTEST KID I HAVE EVER SEEN. And being evil kind of adds to the hottness, so who gives!

Picko
February 20th, 2003, 11:14 pm
We all fear power in our society these days. We would rather follow the pack, and prefer to pity those who are weaker than us than admire those above us

I'm not sure that is true for all of us, I haven't for example ever followed the pact. I enjoyed my individualality as a child, revelled in it as a teenager and cannot imagine that changing as an adult.

created_to_worship
February 21st, 2003, 12:48 am
Originally posted by DracoLuver69 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=180888#post180888))
ok, this is my main point. I DO NOT CARE IF HE IS GOOD OR BAD! ALL I CARE ABOUT IS THE FACT THAT THIS KID, IS THE HOTTEST KID I HAVE EVER SEEN. And being evil kind of adds to the hottness, so who gives!


Hey, I'm glad you think he's hot, but what does that have to do with the thread?:??:

I think Draco, and anyone else, has opportunity to change. The question is, from my point of view, does he forsee the consequences of being on the side he is on yet? Perhaps he is blind by choice, and he needs to see something affect him personally, not just to the Slytherin "competition".

Oy, June 21 doesn't seem to be getting any closer... in fact, it keeps getting farther away! :(

dorcasderr
February 21st, 2003, 12:50 am
OK, I'm with Beatrice Bottbean here...actually it's what I've been saying all along. There is always a chance for redemption...until we die. And, if and when Draco begins to question his upbringing he does have Snape to turn to. There is still a chance for him.

Ezra Pippen
February 21st, 2003, 1:32 am
I always got the impression that Draco was immensely spoiled at home, even if his father wasn't the warmest person torwards him. I assume his mother coddled him, with some of the evidence I have seen of him always being sent sweets, and her not wanting him to be sent to Durmstrung. I always got the impression that he was never treated in any way to make him question what he values and in that way his parents have done him the same disservice that the Dursley's have done for Dudley.

I am curious what he would do when faced with a harsher reality, but really don't hold up much hope for him. I don't think he is misunderstood-he is nasty and getting nastier by the year. I get the impression that he meant what he said when he wished that Hermione was killed by the basalisk, and soon he will have the means to carry out wishes into actions.

He is still a boy, don't get me wrong, but in a way I think that is part of his problem. Immaturity doesn't equal innocence-and his malice seems very real. The prospect that he will question his own values or take on responsibility seems unlikely to me. I am not sure he wants to 'grow up' in this manner; he seems very secure with what he has. I really don't think that he realizes the realities of war at all, and in that he has some chance to learn things the hard way, but he could also just follow the pack and save his own hide, or, as disturbing as it seems to think of a child in this way, continue to enjoy having greater amounts of power over people, even the twisted sort of power that come of being a Death Eater. After all, the first generation of Death Eaters are all very real people who were also children once as well. I am not saying that Draco is doomed to being evil, but all the signs are pointing in that direction.

Beatrice Bottbean
February 21st, 2003, 3:23 am
So I started this hours ago, then started doing something else and just remembered this window was still open. I do that all the time. I have no attention span at all.

I thought these might prove helpful to the discussion, though most likely most of us will end up agreeing to disagree, which is perfectly fine. Anyways, I guess you could call this collection "J.K. Rowling on Adolescent Angst and Rebellion," but I am sure there is tons of other stuff out there - I only looked pretty quickly, and tried to grab stuff that was relevant to both sides of the argument, but I am sure that my own biases inevitably created a self-serving filter. In any case, I do think there are arguments for both sides in here. Regardless of how Draco turns out, I think that we will see him confronted head on with a choice very soon - something where he recognizes the true meaning behind what his parents have taught him and makes a conscience choice to go one way or the other. That's just my take, though, and there's nothing but circumstantial evidence behind that - I just can't stomach the idea of Draco not having a dramatic "I choose/don't choose evil" scene.

hermione_rose_2000 asks: Hello Ms. Rowling, I am a big fan of the Harry Potter books. My name is Katherine Emily Rose and I am 11. Is it true that Harry and Draco will have to get together and fight evil?
jkrowling_bn: Don't believe everything you read on the net!
jkrowling_bn: I saw that rumour too... but it is just a rumour.
located at:
http://www.yahooligans.com/content/chat/jkrowlingchat.html

Q: What grade and subject(s) did you teach?
A: French, but it should have been English. I don't know why I did French at university, except that my parents wanted me to. So learn from my mistake — do what you want, not what your parents want!
located at:
http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm

Q: You referred to the darkness in your books, and there's been a lot of talk and even concern over that.
A: You have a choice when you're going to introduce a very evil character. You can dress a guy up with loads of ammunition, put a black Stetson on him, and say, ''Bad guy. Shoot him.'' I'm writing about shades of evil. You have Voldemort, a raging psychopath, devoid of the normal human responses to other people's suffering, and there ARE people like that in the world. But then you have Wormtail, who out of cowardice will stand in the shadow of the strongest person. What's very important for me is when Dumbledore says that you have to choose between what is right and what is easy. This is the setup for the next three books. All of them are going to have to choose, because what is easy is often not right.
located at:
http://www.ew.com/ew/report/0,6115,85524~5~0~,00.html

Q. Voldemort's a half-blood too…
A. Like Hitler! See! I think it's the case that the biggest bully takes their own defects and they put them on someone else, and they try to destroy them. And that's what he [Voldemort] does. That was very conscious - I wanted to create a villain where you could understand the workings of his mind, not just have a 2-D baddie, dressed up in black, and I wanted to explore that and see where that came from. Harry in Book Four is starting to come to terms with what makes a person turn that way. Because they took wrong choices and he [Voldemort] took wrong choices from an early age.
Q. Why was it important to show some of the strained friendships developing in this book?
A. Well in Book Four for me, Harry, Ron and Hermione are all starting to find their own identities - that means, in their various ways, facing up to what their parents have imposed on them, or the school. For Harry, that's facing up to fame, really facing up to it for the first time. He's been put into a situation where for the first time he'll get the weight of outside interest. So that's scary. Ron has to deal with his jealousy. He's made friends with the most famous boy in the year and that's not easy. And Hermione gets a political conscience. Yeah!
Q: Now we've seen hormones kick in in this book. Are we going to see Harry becoming even MORE like Kevin the teenager, you know, [does Kevin impression] ‘Sirius, huh, I hate you, I wish you were back in Azkaban'?
A: I think Ron's more like that isn't he? Ron's more Kevinish. Harry's got so many worries, he needs his friends - he can't afford to alienate them.
Q: He's delicate isn't he?
A: He is. He's more your sensitive hero. And more of that stuff happens.
located at:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.net/bbcinterview.shtml

Lauren: In all your books, the continuing theme is that people are not what they appear to be. Sometimes they seem dangerous, and are good. Sometimes helpful people are bad. It looks like Harry is being taught to overlook first impressions and to be suspicious of people. Do you think that's something kids need to learn more than other generations?
Rowling: You're right, this is a recurring theme in the books. People are endlessly surprising. It's a very jaded person who thinks they've seen every possible nuance of human nature.
Sometimes I get asked 'What would be your recipe for a happier life?' And I've always said 'A bit more tolerance from all of us.'
One way to learn tolerance is to take the time to really understand other people's motives. Yes, you're right. Harry is often given an erroneous first impression of someone and he has to learn to look beneath the surface. When you look beneath the surface he has sometimes found that he is being fooled by people. And on other occasions he has found very nice surprises.
located at:
http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/thismorning/sites/books/rowling_001023.html

Dr. Jessica Mayberry from New York: So many of the most beloved characters in children's literature begin their lives being raised by wicked adults -- James in JAMES AND THE GIANT PEACH, Cinderella. Why is this such a classic fairy tale format? Why do you think it works so well?
J K Rowling: All through literature -- and not just children's -- the hero has been removed from the family setting. In Greek myths you have the extreme with Romulus and Remus. It serves the important function of enabling the hero to act without the fear of destroying his family and disappointing people who love him, or -- which is very important -- having to expect frailties in his parents. I think that it serves an important function for readers, particularly child readers, to be able to explore adult cruelty, whether or not they are experiencing it themselves.
located at:
http://www.burrow-jp.com/library/original/03191999.html


"A question also surfaced surrounding Harry Potter’s non-magical relatives, the Muggles who have always tortured or mistreated Harry, because of their fear of magic. For revenge, Harry has magically tortured his cousin Dudley. `I like torturing them,` said Rowling. `You should keep an eye on Dudley. It’s probably too late for Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon. I feel sorry for Dudley. I might joke about him, but I feel truly sorry for him because I see him as just as abused as Harry. Though, in possibly a less obvious way. What they are doing to him is inept, really. I think children recognize that. Poor Dudley. He’s not being prepared for the world at all, in any reasonable or compassionate way, so I feel sorry for him. But there’s something funny about him, also. The pig’s tail was irresistible.`"
http://www.cinescape.com/0/Editorial.asp?aff_id=0&this_cat=Books&action=page&obj_id=25917

Perdita
February 21st, 2003, 3:33 am
Originally posted by Justin (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=179915#post179915))
...He is messed up, but what he said on the train is likely to be striking out in anger because he is having to go and spend summer wiuth his 'father', who is likely to have been treating him worse and weorse over the years.


I think this is a very liberal assumption to make. There have not been any indications that Draco does not enjoy being at the mansion with Lucius, helping Lucius with whatever activities they do during the summer. If there have been such indications, please post a quote or two from the books.

Based on how Lucius treated him at the QWC, i wouldn't say that it's any worse than since CoS.

Furthermore, I think that Sirius Black's comments regarding that quote on the train is spot on. At this juncture, after the death of Cedric, after the exposure of Crouch Jr.'s disguise and the revival of Voldemort, the fact that Malfoy can still make jokes about it is really quite sick.

What he says about Ron and Hermione can be taken as merely taunts. However, to make the joke about Cedric's death is inexcusable.

ponshi person
February 21st, 2003, 9:44 am
it could be that since his father was in slytherin that is why went went into slytherin too. i mean, the sorting hat didn't even think about which house to put him in. it just thought of the family name and made the decision. i'm not saying that the sorting hat made a mistake, but maybe, he was destined to go into slytherin. and maybe, lucius is forcing draco to go over to the dark side kinda like the father-son thingy?

Beatrice Bottbean
February 22nd, 2003, 3:53 am
In response to the sorting hat putting Draco in Slytherin, I think JKR has hinted in some interviews that you actually pick your own house, and this makes a lot of sense to me. In response to which house she would be in, she has answered by saying things like she hopes it would put her in Gryffindor but she would be afraid it might want to put her in Ravenclaw. Then, in response to internet pages with sorting hats that made her a Hufflepuff, she has said that if anyone is a Gryffindor, she is a Gryffindor. Harry chose Gryffindor. We saw that process. I don't think we have ever seen someone end up where they didn't want to be - the youngest of the Weasleys and the Creeveys being two more examples. If this is true, it is also a sign that our family's most important values frequently become our most important values as we have seen many families with traditions in a particular house. This is not necessarily the case all the time, however, as the Patil twins ended up in different houses. Slytherin was a choice that Draco made, but as we have seen with Snape, it is not necessarily the ultimate choice.

Wild Rose
February 22nd, 2003, 11:21 am
This isn't book evidence, but it is one persons interpretation. In an interview, Jason Isaacs said he played Lucius the way he did, because he got the impression that he was an abusive father. There is one shot (I will try to fid it, I think it is a publicity still, rather than a screenshot) where Lucius is standing with Draco, hand on his shoulder, and Draco looks quite scared of him.
So I believe that the actors themselves think Draco is mistreated, whatever the evidence. It would be interesting to know why exactly.

@-'-,-----------------

Beatrice Bottbean
February 22nd, 2003, 12:32 pm
I still can't shake the possibility that Narcissa may just be pulling for him. Someone else mentioned that she was coddling him by wanting him to not go away to Durmstrang but stay close to home. While this is consistent with coddling, it is also consistent with not wanting your child to be taught the Dark Arts by a former Death Eater.

Of course, Narcissa could show up in the next book as some evil mastermind, but what we have been told about Narcissa is limited and fairly vague. I think Draco only mentions her that one time and the time that he defends her. Harry, Ron, and Hermione assumed she was amongst the crowd torturing the muggles, but Draco neither confirmed nor denied this. The worst thing going for her is that Dobby refers to his masters in the plural - if only he had explained before banging his head. I just think there is something weird going on with her which could have some bearing on Draco.

Perdita
February 22nd, 2003, 2:49 pm
Beatrice, I see what you're saying, and although it is a possiblity that Narcissa is not evil, but actually very good, I think that this is very unlikely.

Look at her name, Narcissa. What does that tell you about the character? We all know by now that Rowling sometimes gives names to characters for a reason, such as revealing a facet of that character's personality. In this case, we know who Narcissus was (Greek mythology) and what happened to him. To call someone narcissistic is not a compliment.

This is why I believe that Narcissa is not as innocent as some would like her to be. She may be innocent of committing crimes, but I doubt that she'll be revealed as the helplessly victimized mother that some of the fanfictions portray her to be.

Beatrice Bottbean
February 22nd, 2003, 8:30 pm
Good point on the name. Sometimes I get so caught up with a new possibility that I forget my first impressions or reactions. Thanks for bringing me back on that one. I still don't know exactly what I think of her but I think there is something more to her that has yet to play a part - for better or worse. Also, I have never read any fan fiction, so I didn't realize that I was talking about an idea that has possibly already been pushed to its limits. I can understand why they would be written, though. Her situation thus far seems extremely intriguing. This is mostly b/c we know so little about her and so much about those around her so its only natural to wonder about her interactions with the others. While you are probably right in that she will most likely not turn out to be a good guy, but I still like the possibility.

MadMagic
February 24th, 2003, 11:19 pm
Ok, so here's my two cents on Draco. I think that he sees the way his father acts and behaves (dark arts, hates muggles) and he sees that his father is a rich, well respected wizard, with a lot of power in the Ministry( or at least I get the impression of this). Then Draco looks at the Weasley's. They are a very respectable family, but they are "muggle lovers" and are strong supports of Dumbledore. They aren't very prosperous, so why would anyone want to be like them.
I don't think that Draco has yet to firmly establish himself as evil. I think that there will be a time when he has to choose between what he knows is right and what is easy. I don't know what he will choose, but I don't think that anything that Draco has done so far could be classified as anything but behaving as how his family has taught him to behave (tormenting muggles).

As regards to Narcissis Malfoy, while she is never identified as a death eater, I don't think that she is a very good role model for Draco. She probably goes along with pretty much everything her husband says.

Justin Etre
February 25th, 2003, 12:22 am
Kudos MadMagic, I hear what you're saying and I can see where you are coming from. I will look out for your posts in future if this is the quality of substance that you maintain.

Jinxie Cat
March 13th, 2003, 2:24 am
well justin etre i thought you made some really great points! you get your 10 points! and you did back them up with evidence from the book! how about 10 more points!? :D most people seem to think malfoy is not misunderstood and that he is a rude, spoiled, little brat! but i think otherwise! i do think that most of the things he does is purely because he was brought up to handle situations that way! i think that what your parent's tell you and how you're brought up will affect your life in some way! i'm probably going to get yelled at for saying some of this but you all have to remember.... this is just my opinion... it's not based on just the books or from what people on here say, but also from things i've witnessed in real life. i do see some little ray of hope for malfoy to change. i'm not saying he'll suddenly be 'good' because that would be to wierd.. but i could see him turning his back on his father... we all know lucius is purely evil but draco is all talk, that's all.. he hasn't really harmed anyone...

PunkPrincess
March 14th, 2003, 8:04 pm
I agree completely. Im in the exact same position. I was brought up hateing the A party because i was brought up in a very big suporting B party familly. my great uncle was the president of that party once so i take pride in it. also i belive everything my mother and father say is true. draco must be the same. he must just love his father alot. musn't he?

Perdita
March 16th, 2003, 4:27 am
Originally posted by OreoCookie05 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=211465#post211465))
...but i could see him turning his back on his father... we all know lucius is purely evil but draco is all talk, that's all.. he hasn't really harmed anyone...


...but not for lack of trying. :rolleyes:

lanifiel
March 16th, 2003, 4:32 am
Oh please Draco is Evil, enough of the father impressing talk, hes a bad kid who needs to be slapped :D

Dracofan4ever
March 16th, 2003, 5:15 am
Or slapped again in his case!:D

draconis
March 16th, 2003, 3:18 pm
I am sorry if I am repeating what someone previously said, et cetera, but I skimmed through all of the pages of this to try and not do that.

I believe that everyone is a product of their society and their surroundings. Draco was taught to be prideful, therefore, he is. He was taught to look down on muggles and "mudbloods" (excuse the vulgarity), and he does. He was taught that the Slytherins were better than everyone else, and probably subconsiously along with help from his father (perhaps from his mum, but nothing is known about her except that she looks as if "she has dung under her nose" ... which could easily be the product of living 20+ years with Lucius) became just like Slytherin. He was also most likely taught to admire Lord Voldemort ... and was molded into a future follower.

Yet does this really make him bad? This is all he knows, and he's in Slytherin and most seem to be just like him.

He could (forgive the literary reference but I adore Pride and Prejudice and I just finished reading it for the nth time in English) also be like Mr. Darcy (for those who don't know P&P but are familiar with popular books/film Bridget Jones's Diary ... the character of Mark Darcy also applies). Although he was given good principles in childhood he was left "to follow them in pride and conceit." However, even Mr. Darcy changed (though his actions do not appear to be as bad as Draco's, yet it is a different society and time) ... anyone can change, even Draco may be slowly changing because of his environment.

lanifiel
March 16th, 2003, 7:07 pm
But from all accounts he is not changing, he is getting worse...

Justin Etre
March 16th, 2003, 10:21 pm
But lanifiel, if he wanted to make a change for the better, how would it be possible? None of the Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs or Ravenclaws will even look at him with anything less than disgust because of the house that he is in. He can't turn to his parents, or his friends because they are on the dark side, so what can he do lani?

Tarawyn
March 16th, 2003, 10:31 pm
That's a good point, Justin. Malfoy may not have the chance to improve because no one would accept the change; he's had the bad reputation for years, and (as I'm learning) kids his age aren't likely to give up a grudge without extreme reason. His house is one thing, but he also seems to have a pretty bad reputation even considering his house.

On the other hand, it certainly doesn't look like his trying. He's said, in close confidence with "Crabbe" and "Goyle," that he hoped Hermione would die; whether or not this is bragging or a feint, that's not something that a normal kid could say "with relish" whether or not they were pulling off an act. Not to mention the train scene in Goblet of Fire; with what he said and how he said it, could he really be lying? And if he was, if he's gone so far, what difference does it make? He needs a little help, true, but he's a long way from being good.

Perdita
March 17th, 2003, 1:48 am
Originally posted by Justin Etre (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=216820#post216820))
But lanifiel, if he wanted to make a change for the better, how would it be possible? None of the Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs or Ravenclaws will even look at him with anything less than disgust because of the house that he is in. He can't turn to his parents, or his friends because they are on the dark side, so what can he do lani?


I could see the Gryffindors suspecting him and his motives if he were to try and turn good. But I am not so sure that Hufflepuff House would be so judgemental. Maybe.

There is no doubt that if he were to turn good, it would take others a long time to accept it as truth. However, for them to accept him again, he has to show some mettle and do what is right, not just once, but several times over to win the respect and friendship of those whom he has insulted and hurt over the years. In the end, the point is that he has not shown any change. Until he does, who knows how people will react?

Draco should do what is right because it is the right thing to do, not because he wants other people's approval. Just because it is hard, that should not deter him from making the right and good choices. If he is only turning good for other people, then has he truly changed for the better?

lanifiel
March 17th, 2003, 3:18 am
See now your under the impression that I care about what happens to any Malfoy when I really dont. If Draco was good in any shape, way and or form he has had plenty of chances to change his ways. He has chosen not to...

Justin Etre
March 17th, 2003, 8:50 am
Originally posted by lanifiel (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=217192#post217192))
See now your under the impression that I care about what happens to any Malfoy when I really dont. If Draco was good in any shape, way and or form he has had plenty of chances to change his ways. He has chosen not to...


Every person deserves a chance to prove themselves and show their true colours, and so far Draco doesn't seem to be making any choices for himself

lanifiel
March 17th, 2003, 8:59 am
Every choice a human makes is their own choice.

Justin Etre
March 17th, 2003, 9:16 am
Originally posted by lanifiel (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=217588#post217588))
Every choice a human makes is their own choice.


But are his choices purely facillitative to adapt to the environment he has grown up in, or does he know no better?

lanifiel
March 17th, 2003, 9:38 am
Your logic has a flaw in it. If we are to beleive that choices are created by the environment then Harry should be a punk. He is not, he choose against his upbringing to be a decent human being even if that means going against everything he has ever known! Draco could of done the same, but he chose not to!...

Justin Etre
March 17th, 2003, 9:48 am
Originally posted by lanifiel (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=217608#post217608))
Your logic has a flaw in it. If we are to beleive that choices are created by the environment then Harry should be a punk. He is not, he choose against his upbringing to be a decent human being even if that means going against everything he has ever known! Draco could of done the same, but he chose not to!...


'My logic' as you call it, was specific to Draco. Also, Harry would never had 'chosen to be a punk' as you so crassly put it, because the Dursley's treated him appalingly because he was a wizard, and therefore Harry could only diverge from his environment.
Would Harry have turned out like Dudley if he had been accepted by the Dursley's?

lanifiel
March 17th, 2003, 9:51 am
Wait, your saying that because Harry was in an abusive relationship with his guardians he had no other way to emotionally grow except to become a good person?

Justin Etre
March 17th, 2003, 9:53 am
I'm saying that he had no choice but to be as least similar to them as he could because they were abusive towards him. Draco however, tries to mirror his father in an attempt to stop the abuse

lanifiel
March 17th, 2003, 9:55 am
Harry was never like the Dursleys!

Justin Etre
March 17th, 2003, 9:59 am
Originally posted by lanifiel (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=217622#post217622))
Harry was never like the Dursleys!


Thats what I am saying, he chose to diverge, and be as little like them as possible.

lanifiel
March 17th, 2003, 10:01 am
Where as Draco chooses to be evil...

Justin Etre
March 17th, 2003, 10:18 am
But what is the motivation behind his choice?

lanifiel
March 17th, 2003, 10:25 am
In my opinion, he enjoys it...

Justin Etre
March 17th, 2003, 10:34 am
And in my opinion, he is wearinf his fathers msk, choosing to mirror his father in a desperate attempt to gain his approval, when in actual fact is he feeling stretched and lost inside.
Have you never worn a mask lani?

Wild Rose
March 17th, 2003, 11:07 am
I feel sorry for him (yes, I know I thought he was a git, but i've been re-reading the books).
He has an idiot of a father. I know someone who has abusive parents. In front of most people, he can be a total idiot. he's my friend, and he still makes me want to splap him sometims. But on his own, he can be really nice. We haven't actually seen Draco with anyone he trusts.
All we see is Draco through the eyes of his enemy. Would you be nice about someone you didn't get on with? At 14 years old?

@-'-,-------------

Picko
March 17th, 2003, 11:31 am
Well I think that Draco enjoys being a little git.

By the way, I've read the books numerous times and never thought that his father was an abusive parent, tough maybe but not abusive. But is there anything wrong with having high hopes for your son?

So is there any proof behind this "abusive" father thing? Because I haven't been able to find it.

Justin Etre
March 17th, 2003, 11:33 am
Originally posted by Picko (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=217701#post217701))
So is there any proof behind this "abusive" father thing? Because I haven't been able to find it.


There rarely is until it is too late.

Picko
March 17th, 2003, 11:42 am
Ok, well is there any indication that there is an abusive relationship? Because if there isn't this is just as silly as claiming that every animal is an animagus.

Tarawyn
March 17th, 2003, 12:01 pm
The abusive father business seems very unlikely. We've seen the two in private and semi-private conversation, seen and heard of their relationship, and it doesn't check well. No evidence. No hint. This is an extreme case of jumping to conclusions based on what you want to believe. The only crime Malfoy Sr. seems to be commiting is raising his child to be like himself, trying to push Draco to the heights he was able to reach and being less than understanding when Draco doesn't reach those heights.

Draco is in an odd position. Yes, we're seeing him from the eyes of the enemy, but what we're seeing is going increasingly downhill. You're indicating that as he's growing, his mask grows. He doesn't seem to be a very good actor - can't hide being terrified or ashamed, at the least - and keeping a mask growing when you're growing in the opposite direction is difficult if not near-impossible. Not to mention that an abused Draco is a) too obvious, b) too much of a side-door to his personality, and c) a bad plot device...the side-door is what I'm focused on. You don't build up one person's character to repeal it completely. On the other hand, I think the guy is a little uncertain in what he believes and a little afraid of that extra push, so he shows himself as overbearing to hide his fear. Which, to me, is more likely than this - it's simple enough that we've forgotten the possibility.

If Harry had been accepted as Dudley had been accepted, then yes, he would be at least a little like Dudley. But if he had been accepted as a person - not spoiled and overbeared, but just accepted - other influences in the world would have pushed him in another direction, if maybe not to the point he now stands. Malfoy didn't have the influences that could have done so. He was raised on this and, unless Rowling plans to use a crazy plot-device, hardly thought about the other side. It's one thing to switch because you know something is wrong, but what if you don't? It's hard to say that what you're raised on is wrong when that's what you were taught was right...

I'm back to where I started, where we long depared. Draco isn't abused. If he's wearing a mask, it's not so thick as you're aiming for.

Wild Rose
March 17th, 2003, 1:31 pm
I'm not sure why I picked up on the idea of him being an abused child. I think it just seemed to fit. And then there was that Jason Isaccs interview.
Being able to keep a mask depends on the kind of person you are. I've been doing it, effectivley, for years. It's easier than you think, when it is neccessary.

@-'-,--------------

Tarawyn
March 17th, 2003, 1:36 pm
Keeping a mask is one thing. A constant progression of that mask is another. Draco Malfoy has changed quite a bit since we first saw him, and not for the better. He's gotten worse, and for no clear reason. And I don't think that abuse fits him, as I've explained multiple times...a Jason Issacs interview? Could you give us any more information on that?

Picko
March 17th, 2003, 1:50 pm
Issacs said that he played Malfoy like he was an abusive father because thats how he saw the character in the books, or something along those lines that's the general gist of it.

Wild Rose
March 17th, 2003, 1:51 pm
It was in a film magazine (I think it was Total Film).
They asked him how much of his performance he had based on what Tom (Felton) had done. He said something about how great Tom was, and then said that he decided that the reason Draco was "such a little git" was because Lucius was an abusive father. Then he said something about smacking Tom around, because he felt it fit. Thats all I can remember. It was a while ago.

@-'-,----------

Justin Etre
March 17th, 2003, 3:20 pm
Originally posted by Wild Rose (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=217799#post217799))
It was in a film magazine (I think it was Total Film).
They asked him how much of his performance he had based on what Tom (Felton) had done. He said something about how great Tom was, and then said that he decided that the reason Draco was "such a little git" was because Lucius was an abusive father. Then he said something about smacking Tom around, because he felt it fit. Thats all I can remember. It was a while ago.

@-'-,----------


Where is this?! Can you find a transcription please. xxx

Potter_fan
March 17th, 2003, 3:40 pm
I think we should all just face the fact that Draco Malfoy is just a mean person through and through.:devil:

Moonlight
March 17th, 2003, 3:49 pm
We could accept it and wait patiently untill we find out from the books...
But we like to explore other reasons behind his actions. It's all in the name of fun, and where would the fun be if we just accepted everything that's before us?

Potter_fan
March 17th, 2003, 4:04 pm
Well in that case I think he has a VERY troubled home life and he takes it out on Harry and Hermione.

Wild Rose
March 17th, 2003, 4:06 pm
Originally posted by Justin Etre (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=217842#post217842))
Where is this?! Can you find a transcription please. xxx


I dont know. I will search online. It was written interview, just before the COS film came out, in an English film magazine.

He also talked about that snake staff.
:clappy:

@-'-,---------

lanifiel
March 17th, 2003, 6:53 pm
Originally posted by Justin Etre (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=217648#post217648))
Have you never worn a mask lani?


Never, I gave up on my parents and moved out at 16 when we had a monumental fight. I could of easily put a mask on then, but I choose not to...

Dracofan4ever
March 17th, 2003, 7:08 pm
Here's the interview for ya!
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2002/10/TotalFilmLuciusGilderoy.jpg

Dracofan4ever
March 17th, 2003, 7:15 pm
Here's another one,he talk's about the abuse thing a little more in this interview.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/IsaacsInterview.html

Wild Rose
March 18th, 2003, 8:36 am
Ta pet! That is exactly the one I meant. I have it in a drawer somewhere, which about 8 months worth of film junk.

@-'-,------------

She's Crafty
March 18th, 2003, 11:35 am
You know, i've always leaned more towards the abused child thoery for Draco's behaviour, but after reading some great refutes of that (particularly from lanifiel) i'm beginning to see how incredibly unlikely it is.

Now - don't hold me to this though - i do seem to recall J.K. saying that Draco wasn't completely evil. I also don't think he is evil, but i also don't hold with his father being responsible for every bad thing he has ever done (remember, Draco chose to do/say plenty of things at Hogwarts, not Lucius).

But i'm beginning to wonder if maybe his abhorrance for Harry is because (as well as jealousy, which is obvious) Harry is showing something very difference from what Draco has had established as a way of life - that status and all round snobbery/racism as opposed to goodness all-round is what gets you through life. I've no doubt Lucius has instilled such ideals in his son - and then Harry Potter comes along, and gains popularity through simply being a nice person to know. Draco, on the other hand, is disliked by nearly everyone save those in his own house.

It must be a shock to the system realising that what your parents taught you about the world is rubbish, and that Harry seems to attain what Draco wants (popularity and acceptance from peers) without any effort and behaving 'weakly.'

Draco however, doesn't want to change his attitude (something i feel his father DOES play a part in) and the more Harry goes one way the more Draco goes another, and if he doesn't start changing in OoTP than i seriously doubt Malfoy will ever change.

Ok, i rambled enough! :)

Justin Etre
March 18th, 2003, 12:43 pm
Originally posted by Dracofan4ever (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=218023#post218023))
Here's another one,he talk's about the abuse thing a little more in this interview.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/IsaacsInterview.html

Thanks for the link Dracofan xxx. I'd like to quote some of what Jason Isaacs said...


When I arrived and we played the first scene, we went straight into the first scene, and I just grabbed him by the ear, and then I rapped him on the knuckles, and he looked up at me really hurt. I didn't know if it was Tom or Draco that was looking so hurt, because I just thought it was right that Lucius is a really horrible Dad, really abusive Dad. And I could see generations of Malfoys stretching back into time where the fathers have been cold and brutal and hideous to their kids and that's what turns the kids into that. And for me it makes it far more understandable why Draco's like that at school. He gets no love at home, it's a horrible loveless place, and suddenly he' at school and he's not going to let anyone else enjoy themselves, he's resentful of real friendships for instance, and so I think I get him the compassionate vote, which you wouldn't have thought Draco would ever get from anybody


I know that it may look forboding, but please read the whole thing. It just highlights a point of view, which I share.

In reply to she's Crafty watch out for a line like any of the following in the next book.
"The bait was there but Malfoy didn't take it"
"Malfoy looked at them but said nothing"
"Malfoy opened his mouth to say something, but closed it again and look resigned"

Something in which he has the oppoortunity to say something, but chooses not to. If he does start to give it his all though, then (it pains me to say this) but lanifiel is right and is just a spoilt sod, which is equally as probable as my (and Jason Isaacs) theory

EDIT: I was just reminded of this quote on MNet...
Originally spoken by Dumbledore to Harry, I don't know which book
Humans have a knack for choosing precisely the things that are worst for them.

Wild Rose
March 18th, 2003, 12:58 pm
*Side note: Does anyone feel sorry for Tom Felton? getting pulled around by the ears indeed!*

I think these interviews show the difference between bookcannon and filmcannon. We can say, based on what Jason Isaacs has said, that filmDraco is an abused child. I think, if an actor chooses to play a character a certain way, then we have to say that is what they like.
However, we don't have that kind of evidence for bookDraco, which is technically the real character.

@-'-,-------------

Picko
March 18th, 2003, 1:05 pm
Well the book canon does over ride the movie canon so therefore any evidence in the book over rides what we see in the movie.

Wild Rose
March 18th, 2003, 1:16 pm
That was pretty much what I meant. Book came first. Books are cannon.
But I think, when we are discussing it all, it can be hard to keep book and film seperate. Or at least, I find it that way.

I hope the character does get to develop a bit more over the next book.

@-'-,---------------

Justin Etre
March 18th, 2003, 1:30 pm
But JKR was onsite with the film, and she wouldn't let an image be put out there unless it was where she was heading (the hug) or at least tells us something we should know.

Wild Rose
March 18th, 2003, 1:44 pm
Good point. I wonder why it is Jason Isaacs decided that he thought Draco was abused?
I dont think anyone has actually asked JK that in an interview either, have they?

@-'-,-------------

Justin Etre
March 18th, 2003, 2:26 pm
I wonder what Felton thinks as to whether or not Draco is abused.
I mean, before Isaacs decided to pull him by his ear and whack his knuckles with the cane.

Wild Rose
March 18th, 2003, 4:15 pm
I think afterwards, he probably had a pretty good idea!
I noticed the way he played him was with a few little twitches, (I haven't seen the second film, so I only refer to the first here) like he (Draco) wasn't sure what to do.

@-'-,------------

Justin Etre
March 18th, 2003, 4:38 pm
I didn't notice those but I will go home tonight and check.
I could be wrong about all this, and could just be trying deperately to see hot stuff with a soul?

Wild Rose
March 18th, 2003, 4:44 pm
Justin Etre, you stole my line!
Like I said, quite a few people want Draco to go good. I think alot of people like that sort of thing.

Maybe we are just reading too much into it. Like the "Snape is a vampire" brigade. I'm not giving up yet. I still havent seen the second film, so on the 12th of April, I shall be here with a tonne of new points!

@-'-,-----------

lanifiel
March 18th, 2003, 7:07 pm
Originally posted by Justin Etre (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=219221#post219221))
But JKR was onsite with the film, and she wouldn't let an image be put out there unless it was where she was heading (the hug) or at least tells us something we should know.


I'd just like to clear something up. JKR was not onsite for the filming. She was there for script work in a building but was asked to stay away from the filming and characters until after shooting. Her biggest fear when going to a Premiere of one of her books is seeing them take liberties that are not there, seeing things she clearly doesnt think are so...

Dracofan4ever
March 18th, 2003, 7:36 pm
In reply to she's Crafty watch out for a line like any of the following in the next book.
"The bait was there but Malfoy didn't take it"
"Malfoy looked at them but said nothing"
"Malfoy opened his mouth to say something, but closed it again and look resigned"

Something in which he has the oppoortunity to say something, but chooses not to. If he does start to give it his all though, then (it pains me to say this) but lanifiel is right and is just a spoilt sod, which is equally as probable as my (and Jason Isaacs) theory

EDIT: I was just reminded of this quote on MNet...
[/quote/]
Remember when hermione slapped him in the third book,but didnt do anything back?I found that a little odd,I mean I didnt expect him to like hit her back but say something along the line's of "You stupid mudblood"!

lanifiel
March 18th, 2003, 7:45 pm
I think he was more shocked that anyone would lay hands on him, let alone a filthy MudBlood like Herimone. He was shocked beyond words...

Dracofan4ever
March 18th, 2003, 7:53 pm
I found this interview with jason and tom,tom talk's
about what he think's is going on between them
http://jeremynorthamgallery.com/Jason/LuciusMalfoy/Interviews.htm

Tarawyn
March 18th, 2003, 10:28 pm
Well, it's an actor's interpretation versus the thoughts of a woman who is keeping steadily silent. Issacs could be dead wrong. There are some surface things that may hint at it, but I'm trying to dig below the surface, and I still can't see him as abused.

Back to the literary board. Removing the blame from Draco through having him abused is fantastical, a way to remove him from blame. He's a kid, and it's hard to hold a kid responsible for horrendous actions, things he's done and things he might end up doing. But there needs to be someone in the series who does, and he's a likely candidate. Why?

This isn't as lighthearted as it used to be and is getting darker. We've seen a teenager die rather abruptly, his life just snapped off, something else is hard to imagine. When you show one side of a story, especially one like this, it's likely you'll end up showing the other. A foil, maybe. It doesn't have to go as far as Avada Kedavra, but people are going to take that step. I think Draco is going to be put in this position because of the hints we've been given, and the fact that heresay may not be completely accurate, but it isn't always completely wrong...on my line, he's going to take a step forward before he goes back (if he does). He won't be the one to go overboard, but he's not getting off this scot-free.

miri
March 19th, 2003, 2:05 am
How many people know who Harry saw at the DE gathering? If Snape warned Draco that his dad had been there, well... wouldnt YOU be wetting yourself?

We dont know that Lucius is abusive, but we DO know that he's not the cuddliest dad on the planet...

To Lucius, Voldemort's almost a god. I think Lucius is gonna go maniacal if he hasnt already. Draco knows this.

Wild Rose
March 19th, 2003, 9:57 am
Dracofan4ever, which interview did you mean? Because there are loads on there!

@-'-,-------------

Juno
March 19th, 2003, 4:07 pm
there have been made some good points!

i think that in the first 2 books he was really just a nasty git. the kid you just want to slap across the face. but then he gets really mean. he continuously becomes harsher and i don't think that this is going to stop soon. but at the same time lines like
"The bait was there but Malfoy didn't take it"
"Malfoy looked at them but said nothing"
"Malfoy opened his mouth to say something, but closed it again and look resigned"
- as has been said - set the ground for more behind all the nastiness.
the question (for me) is how much does he know and what is he going to do with his knowledge? i hope Rowling will concentrate on him or explain him a bit mare in the future books, cos i think he could be a really interesting character.
the trio, espescially Harry, grew up very fast because of their expierences. maybe Draco, though being spoiled somehow (certainly not like Dudley!), has stoped being a child long time ago, too, having the background and the father he has. ... well, that was just a thought.
in any case i expect some serious decisions from him soon.

but nearly everybody talks about him being bad and turnig to Voldie or him being good and joining the trio so to speak. i think there are some more possibilities, though not everyone realistic.
i also believe that he is enjoying being bad, but this does not necessarily mean that he will or wants to team up with voldemort. of course he will do if he is following in his fathers footsteps.
if there will be some kind of rebellion, then maybe he does not want to be like his father - a servant to the dark lord - but some kind of lord of himself.
but right now he seems too much of a coward to turn his back on his father and Voldie.
i think his last lines in book 4 show that even if he can think of something better for his life than being a Deatheater, he does not want to risk to be against Voldemort. ...or is he lying to himself? ;)

and the D/Herm thing... i think it is possible that he finds her preety (wordless at the yule ball), but that's all.

SnowyOwl
March 19th, 2003, 4:31 pm
Did Draco say nothing negative to Hermione at the Yule ball because he thought she was pretty? Or did he say nothing because she was with someone he admires--Viktor Krum?
I think the latter is more likely, and can see no evidence that Draco is attracted to Hermione.

She's Crafty
March 19th, 2003, 5:29 pm
Ok, i'm going to repost something i put on my blog a long time. It was purely random speculation that used Buffy the Vampire Slayer analogies, so it might be a bit confusing:


The Musing


If you were to go on all of Malfoy's past behaviour in the books then you would say without a shread of doubt that the kid is destined to be one of the bad guys (Death Eaters). His father is in the inner sanctum of Voldemort's followers after all, and Malfoy seems very much his father's son.


BUT, nobody knows what J.K. Rowling has in store in future novels, and she did say something about Draco not being evil, merely misunderstood. Is she planning to have Draco surprise is all and stay with the goodies? Well, in my view it can go one of two ways: The Cordelia Way of The Faith Way. These Buffy the Vampire Slayer analogies best fitted the description of these scenarios and further proves i watch too much television and am a certified geek. Oh, anyway ----->


The Cordelia Way


Draco joins the good guys, and even helps them a little, but VERY reluctantly. There are some signs that this is the way Malfoy the Amazing Bouncing Ferret (sorry, that line from Ron was a classic) will go; There's the J.K. quote previously mentioned, and another one pertaining to the 5th novel (which some of us would like to read some time this century) in which she said of the plot that Harry and Draco would have to team up despite their differences and work together although why she wouldn't say why [SC note - JK confirmed that was just a rumour]. It suggested this allience would be short lived but it also suggests to me that Malfoy is obviously not as bad as he seems if he's willing to work with Harry (like Cordelia was always in the end willing to help the Scoobies when it was utterly necessary). Also, a quote from Dumbledore which i'm very sure J.K. put in the Goblet of Fire on purpose: "It does not matter what a person is born as, but what they grow up to be" (badly paraphrased, sorry). I think this included all the characters in general and i don't think J.K. put it in for no real reason other than for Dumbledore to argue one point with Cornelius Fudge. Of course, i may simply be another Potter fan making too much of one small thing, but it did strike me as ominous.


Besides all that, i can just see Draco insulting and belittling The Trio in much the same fashion Cordy did to Buffy, Xander and Willow while still helping to save the known world. You can't deny that his caustic wit is funny...even if it is mean.


The Faith Way


Going from what we already know of Draco's character, The Faith Way does actually seem more plausible. I do think Draco will serious hesitate before choosing a side, and his utter hatred for Harry could be what tips the scales. Faith always felt overshadowed by Buffy (although she wasn't a bad person in the beginning), and it's no secret that Malfoy resents both Harry's fame and popularity and was definately hurt when he rejected Draco's offer of friendship. These things could, as they did with Faith, conspire to see Malfoy join Voldemort if for no other reason than to get one up on Harry. And see him killed. I doubt Malfoy will be completely happy being on the bad side of the war, and i also see Harry trying to persuade him to change sides and it all leading to one big showdown between the two (which i see happening in either case).


Of course, knowing J.K. it'll all go a third unpredicted way but hey, you never know...


My Conclusion - I'm gonna go with the Cordelia Way. Simply because i know the Faith Way sounds more plausible and J.K. never goes with the predictable route.

Some of that might seem wholly redundant now - i know the thing about Harry and Draco teaming is confirmed to be false. But i don't know why i feel so pro-redemptionista about Malfoy - i'm usually quite harsh about the idea of baddies turning to the good side. Also, Faith is of course working for her redemption so both ways lead to the white hats.

I've always seen a kind of parrallel between Malfoy and Faith, as mentioned above they felt badly overshadowed by the hero/ine, in fact i remember Faith saying how everyone always talked about Buffy and no one ever cared about her or wanted to be like her - i could very much imagine Draco saying almost the same thing to Harry. Maybe Draco will end up regretting taking the evil path, and like Faith, realise far too late what a truly awful choice it was.

Picko
March 20th, 2003, 7:24 am
Did Draco say nothing negative to Hermione at the Yule ball because he thought she was pretty? Or did he say nothing because she was with someone he admires--Viktor Krum?
I think the latter is more likely, and can see no evidence that Draco is attracted to Hermione.

I think it was a mix of both, as I understood it however he was surprised by how she looked. That said, she's still a "mudblood" and for any romance to occur he would need Hermione's approval which quite simply wouldn't happen.

Wild Rose
March 20th, 2003, 8:08 am
She's crafty - There was the part near the start of COS where Draco was going on about Harry, and the way his father told him off implied he did this on a frequent basis.

@-'-,---------------

Wild Rose
March 25th, 2003, 8:36 am
Justin, have you given up defending your cause?

@-'-,------------

Justin Etre
March 25th, 2003, 8:48 am
Sorry Rose,I have just let things geton top of me. Iam okay now though, almost.
Very nice post She's Crafty,it must have taken you ages write.
Being a bit of a Buffy nut myself, I under stood your post clearly, and see both the Cordelia and the Faith points as very vaild.
Faith is another character I lovetoanalyse. We know she went through some bad stuff early on in life (Faith, Hope and Trick) but we don't know the extent of it. And in the end she is trying to seek redemption.She turned herself in to the police and is stopping herself using violence when she gets angry at people.
Cordelia on the other hand is a character with skin toothick,everytime we feel we were getting to know her, she puts on more layers. She is very insecure, but I don't think this is Draco. Draco may replace where he is insecure about himself with his father, like both of them, but nobody has tried touncover what is beneath his surface yet.
That will be the true test of his character.

And Rose,as for Draco talking about Harry constantly,youknow what I think, but I am not allowed to say it. so I willjust say there is a strong feeling there with a lot of tension...goshdarnitalltoheck...

She's Crafty
March 25th, 2003, 10:28 am
Justin: Mmmm, are we picking up slash-y vibes? :p

Anyway, i think there are a lot of similarities between Faith and Draco, not purposely obviously. But it's there though, and it's interesting to look. I'm mightily tempted to write a crossover story with those two, but i don't have time at the moment.

There is one thing i was thinking about recently - everyone always brings up the idea of Draco being physically abused but about emotionally? His father seems very cold towards him and you have to assume his mother is very much the same.

Again, i'm not trying to seek out excuses for his behaviour (because there isn't any - no matter what is going on in his homelife, Draco has done and said many things he should be held responsible for), but more his entire attitude that his personality is based upon. He doesn't have any real friends, and has a cold attitude towards other wizards in general - and again, i think a lot of the Harry hate comes from jealousy, Harry has three great friends whom (in Draco's mind) are inferior. Harry turned his friendship down for a Mudblood and a Weasley and now Draco's stuck with two bodyguards with little intelligence.

It in no way excuses him, but it's an idea about where some of his behaviour stems from - never exactly been shown much love from his parents, and quite a lot of rich parents try to compensate by buying their children whatever they went and thus that child/ren becomes a spoiled brat. Like Draco

Just some rambling thoughts, sorry if it makes little sense.

Wild Rose
March 25th, 2003, 12:41 pm
No, I think most of it makes really good sense.

And Justin! I'm shocked at you! Well, i'm not, but I ought to be.

@-'-,----------------

Justin Etre
March 25th, 2003, 1:14 pm
Originally posted by She's Crafty (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=229939#post229939))
Justin: Mmmm, are we picking up slash-y vibes? :p


Originally posted by Wild Rose (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=230016#post230016))
And Justin! I'm shocked at you! Well, i'm not, but I ought to be.
@-'-,----------------


Slash, Me? Would I? :angel:
Lol, I in way no way admit to the existance or insdorse the act or insinuation of slash, or any form of same-sex orienated fiction.
(Okay Pasalita, I said it. Now uncuff me)

Wild Rose
March 25th, 2003, 1:19 pm
*Yells for friend to gag self in deseprate desire not to say something that may have me forcibly removed*

Ok. The urge has passed. Mostly.

If one person was to 'get through to' Draco, to not misunderstand him, wh do you think it would be? I'm voting for Snape, although that may be a little too obvious.

@-'-,-------------

Justin Etre
March 25th, 2003, 1:30 pm
Yes, maybe Snape sees that Draco would become like him, and he favours Draco so that Draco will look to Snape as a father/authority figure instead of Lucius?

Wild Rose
March 25th, 2003, 1:37 pm
Ah, but isn' the big question "will it work?"?

@-'-,-------------
(P.S. Side note-there are some really wierd Snape sits out there! *shiver*)

Wild Rose
April 1st, 2003, 2:55 pm
I guess this is another thing that we desperatly hope will be cleared up in the next book. But which we wont find out about till book 7. *sigh*

@-'-,------------

Justin Etre
April 1st, 2003, 3:07 pm
Maybe Draoc will find Harry crying somewhere, and instead of having his dad talk though him, he comfots him, in a non-slash, het way.
Then maybe he helps Harry to deal, he says something like
"At least your parents loved you, mine choose to hate me,I was just born to carry on the bloodline"???

Wild Rose
April 1st, 2003, 3:17 pm
I think that would require a drastic character change. Although I could imagine it happening the other way around.

@-'-,--------------

Juno
April 1st, 2003, 3:33 pm
Originally posted by Justin Etre (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=245051#post245051))
Maybe Draoc will find Harry crying somewhere, and instead of having his dad talk though him, he comfots him, in a non-slash, het way.
Then maybe he helps Harry to deal, he says something like
"At least your parents loved you, mine choose to hate me,I was just born to carry on the bloodline"???


this sounds very fanfic-like to me;)
and i also think that this would require a drastic character change. but maybe somewhere in far future, when Draco is broken somehow, he would say something like that about his parents.

the other way round? you mean like Harry saying "At least my parents loved me, you were just born to carry on the bloodline!"
This sounds more like the books:p

Justin Etre
April 1st, 2003, 3:43 pm
Originally posted by Juno (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=245062#post245062))
the other way round? you mean like Harry saying "At least my parents loved me, you were just born to carry on the bloodline!"
This sounds more like the books:p


hehe. :rotfl: Very drole. I think that we are going to see not exactly charcater change, btu character 'development' evreywhere.
Now that we know the characters, JKR will feel safe enough to mess aroud with them bit.

Wild Rose
April 1st, 2003, 4:23 pm
No, I do not expect Harry to say that. Although I wouldn't put it past him to make s hot about "At least you have parents" and then for Draco to break down.
Harry seems much more likely to help someone, even if he didn't like them. Cannon-Draco, at present, would probably use it as a good opportunity to mock.

@-'-,---------------

Weatherby
April 1st, 2003, 10:07 pm
I disagree with that scenario. It wouldn't happen/begin that way at least.
We'd have to see a lot more changes in Malfoy's character before he would comfort Harry for any reason at all.

lanifiel
April 1st, 2003, 10:13 pm
There would be far too many changes for that to happen, I seriously hope it doesnt...

She's Crafty
April 1st, 2003, 10:29 pm
Draco Malfoy - The redemption possibilities

What, that crazy She's Crafty posting again on Draco's behalf? Merlin help us...

I'm sure that's reaction! :) :p But again i plead that you stay with me on this, i've a loooot to say, and i spent an entire sick day thinking it up and flicking through the books to back up my arguements!

First of all, let me make it absolutely clear that i am not any of the following: A Tom Felton groupie who thinks Draco could be redeemed because Tom is a hottie. I am not a Draco groupie in any particular sense and neither am i a 'poor Draco is a wickle abused child, its so not his fault he's evil...'

What i am is an aspiring writer/college student and why i believe Draco could be redeemed is well...just read the d**n post!

As someone who does hope to be a writer some day i spend a lot of time, as part of my learning/A Level courses, analysing texts. I look routinely at charactirization methods and the sublties of what may seem a straight forward character at first. For example at the moment i'm looking at A Streetcar Named Desire and even the reprehensible Stanley is not entirely straight forward.

I'm explaining this so you know i'm not just taking bits of the HP books and making up a load of c**p just to back up my pro-redemptionista stance on Mr Malfoy. I am not looking at things the way i want to, but everyone has a different interpretation of things and this is merely mine. I'm sure other's are entirely different.

In short, i am looking at Draco's character from a writer's point of view (and i'm not using Faith as a pointer either). I have still come to the conclusion that Draco is redeemable. But whether he actually will be redeemed or even want to be remains to be seen. But i think there are strong hints that would definately pertain to side switching later on.

And they are (*drum role*)

------> His first meeting with Harry in Madam Malkin's.

Look at the dialogue carefully. Yes, he's being a snotty little ****, but look at what Draco is actually saying. The dig about Hufflepuff, the complaint about first years not being allowed brooms. To me that whole exchange screams "I'm trying to be wicked cool here!" He's seriously trying to impress Harry (and he does not know is identity here either). Draco is dismissive of Harry at the end though because Harry clearly isn't impressed at all. Another wizard with knowledge of Hufflepuff and the rule might well have been (or at least have agreed with him). Draco also boasts about his family's wealth, another 'look how cool i am' tactic. To me, and this entirely IMHO, i think it suggests very strongly that Draco does want friends, a good friend to talk to and joke with (in other words, the complete opposite of Crabbe and Goyle). It's all so typical of what a child, especially a rich one, would do to try and win someone's friendship and when Harry didn't go for it Draco immediately lost interest.

-----------> Borgin and Burkes and Lucius/Draco exchange.

Ok - we get immediately that Draco is jealous and resentful of Harry and voices this a lot if Lucius' 'you've told me this at least a hundred times' is anything to go by. Harry is everything Draco wants to be in terms of being famous and popular and seems to have achieved all this through a way Draco probably never have even dreamed of - he's simply been a nice and unprejudiced person.

I think this is where parental influence has had a part to play. The reason i believe this is that Lucius has most likely past on the belief that money = power and popularity and maybe even fame and obviously that Mudbloods are completely inferior to pureblood wizards. therefore i think Draco just doesn't get why Harry is more popular and well liked than he and Hermione beat him in every exam. At this point i'd like to remind everybody that i do NOT hold Lucius entirely responsible for everything Draco has done/said. Draco should rightly be held accountable everthing he has chosen to do/say because in the end that it exactly what it was - his choice.

It's possible that when the time comes to choose a side, Malfoy might (reluctantly) side with Dumbeldore and by exstension Harry because in the end, it holds far more benefits - bearing in mind that Draco is an utter coward and would probably go with the side less liely to not only lose but also not likely to land him well and truly in it should it lose.

-----------> Trying to get Hagrid Sacked.

No, i'm not crazy nor recently had a surprise lobotomy, i do actually think there is a sign of a different side to Draco displayed here that could effect whom he shall choose to side with later on. In a nutshell i think it displays an insecure side to him. He plays on that injury not only for the benefits of having his two enemy students do his Potions work for him abd having an inept teacher he depises sacked but also Draco was playing for the sympathy vote. I'd imagine he doesn't get that often or at all, and it shows insecurity because it's a pretty low place to stoop to get anyone to show remotely kind/friendly feelings towards him.

There's also a point i will look at pertaining to how his father reacted to this incident (he didn't come and visit his son, just decided to do what Lucius obviously enjoys - bullying and intimidating people for his own benefit). But that's later.

-----------> His reaction to an insult to his mother.

I brought this up once before and it was refuted with a very good point - Malfoy probably reacted so angrily because an insult to his mother is an insult to his family and therefore him personally. But i've looked over this scene again and i'm not entirely convinced that is simply the case here. Look again. Harry and Ron just accused his father of being one of the wizards torturing the Muggles. It's accurate, but Draco doesn't really defend his father and i wonder why not. Lucius does a lot to cover his past evil tracks, don't you think he'd be royally ****** that his own son, far from strenuoslly denying this accusation and upholding the family honour he practically confirms it? But when Harry makes a snide crack about Narcissa Draco actually gets riled and threatens him? I think that suggests Draco has a bigger emotional attachment to his mother than his father. Lucius is only useful as a tool to threaten people with it would seem.

And one more thing that pertains to all the books but is entirely IMHO and therefore can be completely disregarded altogether.

Now, i used to be sort of in the camp that Lucius is an abusive father, i at least believed it was a strong possibility.

This BTW, is physical abuse i'm speaking of, but i have actually come to the conclusion that it is not that at all - i believe Draco has suffered emtional abuse.

I don't think anyone for a second would think that Lucius is a loving father. To treat your children as a possession or simply as another person to dominate and control is emotional abuse. To treat a child with cold indifference and constantly put them down is emotional abuse. I personally feel there is a strong case to support my thoery that Draco has been emotionally abused by his father in at least one of these forms - look at Borgin and Burkes for instance, where he basically tells Draco he's lower than a Mudblood, which despite the ignorant racism behind that it's still not nice to be told. Also, when his arm was hurt by Buckbeak, Lucius shows not an iota of interest in Draco's well being, only that Hagrid will be punished for it. Typical rich arrogant b*****d on a powertrip.

In conclusion, i do believe there is a strong chance of Draco being redeemed. I personally feel it would add so much to the character (effectively it would make him a contradiction). A character whom, nasty but funny quips aside, is too much a stereotypical school bully. Heck, even Voldie has layers! I know a lot of people believe Draco is a 'scratch the surface and you'll only get more surface' type but i simply cannot buy that J.K. would just create such a two dimensional villian like that. In fact i would be gravely disappointed in her if that turns out to be the case. Draco is not Iago (evil for the sake of it).

That's my two Knuts worth! Feel free to add yours!

Lordy, that was long!

lanifiel
April 1st, 2003, 10:45 pm
Nice post Craft. Very nice post I've got run along to a meeting I'm meant to be running (Eek!), but I'll post some more later on :)

She's Crafty
April 1st, 2003, 11:01 pm
*blushes* thank you lanifiel, you were actually one of the people who convinced me as to why Lucius Malfoy was most certainly not physically abusive to Draco! And i can be very stubborn over my opinions! :)

Shi
April 2nd, 2003, 1:22 am
I think Draco is a selfish bully, but not truly evil. Lucius, I believe, is evil and is the reason why Draco often appears evil. Being in Slytherin dosn't make him evil, it just means he is ambitious, which isn't a bad thing at all (in my opinion).

miri
April 2nd, 2003, 2:56 am
*Applauds She's Crafty, forks over a wheel-barrow of chocolate frogs and gives her 50 points to boot*

Very well thought through post :)

It definitely is easy to see Lucius as an emotionally abusive parent. He never shows his son love or respect, and constantly undermines him. Cannon.

If Malfoy was home-schooled that means he spent the first 11 years of his life constantly being run down, constantly being made to feel inferior; very rarely hearing a differing opinion. So we have a child here, who's best isn't worth a knut to his father, and no one to convince Draco that daddy's an arrogant :censored:. As a result we have a little Draco who has no idea how to form a connection with anyone, and who doesn't know how to be in a healthy relationship. Crabbe and Goyle aren't friends - they're minions. People who he can control like his father controls him.

*stops before she ends up picking up Draco and bawling at him "It's ok - I'll be your friend!"*

HogwartsChaplain
April 2nd, 2003, 6:14 am
BRAVO! Excellent post! I certainly expect some members to debate some of these points, but you make your case very eloquently.

Originally posted by She's Crafty (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=245470#post245470))

...Draco does want friends, a good friend to talk to and joke with (in other words, the complete opposite of Crabbe and Goyle). It's all so typical of what a child, especially a rich one, would do to try and win someone's friendship and when Harry didn't go for it Draco immediately lost interest.

Of course, we don't know for sure that Draco was friends with Crabbe and Goyle *before* this incident at Madame Malkins' shop. This could lead to several thoughts and questions:

~ Draco's interest in friendship with anyone about to enter Hogwarts is an indication of his true insecurity about how he'll fit in there. If Draco has been home-schooled, he might be a little more unsure how he'll make this transition socially.

~ Having been rejected by the one person whose friendship would have been a coup for Draco, he may have chosen Crabbe and Goyle as his cronies because he knew they wouldn't reject him, and also that they wouldn't expect Draco to develop a real friendship-relationship with them. For Draco there would be more security in his relationship with these two Slytherin bullies. More security, but less in so many other ways.

Of course, this is giving more credit to Draco than I may be inclined to give him. :smile:

Wild Rose
April 2nd, 2003, 7:06 am
She's crafty, I will add sensible thoughts later, but I just have to say, that was brilliant.

@-'-,----------

She's Crafty
April 2nd, 2003, 8:27 am
Of course, we don't know for sure that Draco was friends with Crabbe and Goyle *before* this incident at Madame Malkins' shop. This could lead to several thoughts and questions:

~ Draco's interest in friendship with anyone about to enter Hogwarts is an indication of his true insecurity about how he'll fit in there. If Draco has been home-schooled, he might be a little more unsure how he'll make this transition socially.

~ Having been rejected by the one person whose friendship would have been a coup for Draco, he may have chosen Crabbe and Goyle as his cronies because he knew they wouldn't reject him, and also that they wouldn't expect Draco to develop a real friendship-relationship with them. For Draco there would be more security in his relationship with these two Slytherin bullies. More security, but less in so many other ways.

Of course, this is giving more credit to Draco than I may be inclined to give him.

Mmm, HogwartsChaplian that is interesting. I did wonder if he knew them then or not. I suppose there is no way to know, but i will say that he seemed rather desperate to keep talking to someone who didn't have a clue about what he was walking about.

ETA: Thanks for the Chocolate Frogs and 50 Points miri! This girl is officially humbled by the praise. But will say that it took a lot of time to write so i'm glad it was worth it.

Weatherby
April 2nd, 2003, 7:23 pm
That was a very good post She's Crafty.
I'll do my best to comment as intelligently (not likely :) .)
I apologise for not using the quote format but my post is long enough without it.

Madam Malkin's & the friendship.
I agree with this part of your post as a possibility.
Draco didn't know Harry was Harry Potter so he didn't have ulterior motives for trying to befriend or impress him. I'm not sure if this was out of the goodness of his heart (he was making fun of Hufflepuffs) but nor was he trying to keep Harry down for his father's plans.

Borgin and Burkes and Lucius/Draco exchange.
You have me sort of.
Yes his father is bullying but I don't see anything that shows he'll be redeemed. We see the heart of the problem but no solutions.

Trying to get Hagrid Sacked.
This has me more concerned than any name-calling or bullying. Malfoy was trying to manipulate the parents and the system.
His treatment of animals shows more about him than how he treats his fellow students. I can't reconcile this no matter how sad I am for him that his father isn't emotionally there for him.

Hagrid wasn't inept in his subject he just has a misguided view.
You may be right that he had other motivations but I'm not sure..

His reaction to an insult to his mother.
Brilliant! You are right. He didn't try and cover up for his daddy. I think Lucius has been ****** a few times at his son for not being as slippery as he. Draco has his emotions (as flinty as they may be) on his face.

He does have a strong relationship with his mother but is it because he despises being disciplined? Most children respect the forceful parent but he doesn't? That's an interesting view of the family dynamic there.
Draco isn't one dimensional so you may have a point that there's more to him than meets the eye.

I hope your right that he's not as one-sided as Harry sees him but I have a feeling he's going to break his fans hearts.
What is your take on his relationship with Snape?
I'd love to hear more from you.


Hogwarts Chaplain, I think it is more than likely Draco already knew Crabbe and Goyle. If he didn't he was comfortable settling in with them since their parents are acquainted (They seem to be his own lackeys).
I think Draco might've been searching for friend/partner he'd consider more than lackey.

She's Crafty
April 3rd, 2003, 8:45 am
Weatherby: What are you about? that was a wonderful post! You've brought up some great points. :)

And here are my responses -

This has me more concerned than any name-calling or bullying. Malfoy was trying to manipulate the parents and the system.
His treatment of animals shows more about him than how he treats his fellow students. I can't reconcile this no matter how sad I am for him that his father isn't emotionally there for him.

Hagrid wasn't inept in his subject he just has a misguided view.
You may be right that he had other motivations but I'm not sure..

Not to seem to much of an apologist but Draco's treatment of animals didn't seem worrying to me, he's indifferent to them and obviously has little respect for them, but if he was actually torturing them i'd be very worried. That tends to be the classic sign of a pyschopath after all. I agree though, i don't think he treats people much better.

As for Hagrid, i don't personally think he was inept but no doubt Malfoy saw him that way. Hagrid (like everybody else) is beneath him and i think the other reason he did it(aside from the ones i already pointed out) was to illustrate the point that he is better than Hagrid. It didn't succeed. I guess it could be seen as an ego boost in a way, since his father often puts him down, tramping on others may be a way to make him feel better.

But in the end, his actions were still wrong. Very wrong.

Borgin and Burkes and Lucius/Draco exchange.
You have me sort of.
Yes his father is bullying but I don't see anything that shows he'll be redeemed. We see the heart of the problem but no solutions.

That's true, i guess this where the whole theme of making the right choice comes in, it's really up to Draco whether he chooses to back away from Voldemort's side or not. And there is always the possibility he won't, as much as i'd hate to think that.

He does have a strong relationship with his mother but is it because he despises being disciplined? Most children respect the forceful parent but he doesn't? That's an interesting view of the family dynamic there.
Draco isn't one dimensional so you may have a point that there's more to him than meets the eye.

I hope your right that he's not as one-sided as Harry sees him but I have a feeling he's going to break his fans hearts.
What is your take on his relationship with Snape?
I'd love to hear more from you.

Ok, this is a difficult thing to answer. We simply don't know enough about Draco's homelife to formulate anything more than a thoery, so here's mine - i don't believe Narcissa is a forceful parent but i do think she probably spends far more time with him than Lucius does. Remember, Lucius was the one that wanted to send Draco to Durmstrang but Narcissa vetoed it. His mother obviously cares about having her son close by but then again she also seems to spoil him considerably which has helped to make him a somewhat umpleasant young man.

I still do have my concerns about exactly which way his character will go, i just think that a) that line from Dumbeldore about it not mattering who one is born as but what they grow up to be will speak for quite a few characters and b) it's too...well, simple to have Draco make the easy choice. Pro-redemption fans aren't the biggest group in the world and there are still plenty of people who think Draco is unredeemable. And JK likes to surprise us does she not? However, if Draco shows no signs at all of wanting to be redeemed in OoTP then i really doubt he'll ever be... :(

As for Draco's relationship with Snape, now this is a hard one that i've thought about a bit. It's going to take a whole other post though! :-)

Yavanna
April 3rd, 2003, 6:18 pm
Draco is the evil offspring of his evil upbringing. Nature versus nurture- this is a case of nature, if in fact evil is bred into you, but if not, it is nurture, he was raised around evil parents.

Weatherby
April 5th, 2003, 5:15 am
Being raised around evil parents isn't the issue.
We're looking at Draco's past behaviour.
Harry wasn't given good examples growing up but he's still a decent lad.

I hope you're right She's Crafty.
We'll have to wait for OotP to be able to tell for sure if Draco will pick what is right or easy.
I'm looking forward to your response on Snape. I've always felt he could be doing more for Draco but perhaps his cover with Lucius won't allow it.

She's Crafty
April 5th, 2003, 9:59 am
Weatherby: I agree about upbringing, i often think that Harry's goodness is an illustration of how surroundings does not necessarily affect who you are. It also could be seen to show that Malfoy has no moral fibre or real strength of will of his own but...well, that's yet another post.

But, anyway, i'm sorry this is late:

I admit i've never given much thought to how and why Snape favours Draco so much until it came up here several weeks ago. My thoughts have always been that -

Snape favours him because he sees something of himself in Malfoy. Like Draco, Snape had his own little gang of Slytherin's but (i'm assuming from what Black says) properly wasn't very well liked by the rest of the students and perhaps not the faculty either. I often get the impression that the other teachers merely tolerate Malfoy, they don't particularly seem to like him.

I stick by this, but i also think Snape is playing a wait and see game. He's giving Malfoy the kind of encouragement that he properly didn't get from other pupils or teachers to see if it will help change him. On the other hand he could be trying to gain influence over Draco to also achieve the same end - of turning him away from the dark side. I think both are very plausible.

As for what Draco thinks about Snape - i think he does like the teacher, because he's getting exactly what he always wants - someone who favours him, even likes him. But with Malfoy he sees Snape as someone he can manipulate and use to help humilate Harry and the other Gryffindors. I might think Malfoy is an interesting character but as Ron said "He's used to walking all over everyone" Snape just another person for Draco to use.

He wanted Snape in charge of the school in CoS because he knew that would be benificial to the only person Draco really gives a monkey's about - Draco.

I therefore believe Snape is going to really shock Draco. Either by giving him one hell of a dressing down (which i would pesonally cheer too) or something similar. Or perhaps he won't be so fond of the Professor if Lucius tells him Snape is a deserter of Voldemort's inner circle (which i don't believe either Malfoy knew - wouldn't Lucius have warned Draco not to give Snape the time of day if he had known?)

It will be interesting to see if any of this is accurate. God, can't this **** book come any faster??? ;)

Wild Rose
April 5th, 2003, 10:13 am
She's Crafty: I know this is off topic, but you are amazing. I have read some of the your journal, and you're theories are great.

@-'-,-------------

She's Crafty
April 5th, 2003, 10:26 am
Wild Rose: You actually read my journal without your eyes bleeding? Heh, i just use that to rant on or post pictures of guys on...hehehehe! :)
;) :p

I think i owe Margot la Faye a lot, now there is a woman who knows how to formulate thoeries (but there usually BtVS stuff) and **** good ones at that.