Lily/Snape -- Severus Snape in Love?

Discussion of the Madam Puddifoot's article Severus Snape in Love? (www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-rlabozetta01.shtml) by Rachel LaBozetta.

I loved this editorial! Although I really don't care for the idea of Snape loving Lily, I'm beginning to think it true.

Your analysis of the Potions Master was very accurate, and it impressed me. I hate him, and at the same time, I feel sorry for him. I cannot imagine holding so much in; those emotions must be eating him alive.

I also liked how you compared Snape's hatred for both Siruis and James. That seemed like the most convincing evidence to me. What other reason would he have for not hating them both equally, if it wasn't about Lily?

Great job. I can't wait to learn more about Lily.

I've always thought Snape had, at the very least, a crush on Lily. :love: Your editorial puts it so clearly though. He must have been beyond humiliated by James' treatment of him in front of Lily. I wonder if part of the attraction for James was Lily's unswerving quest to do what was right and stand up for the underdog. Perhaps Snape had a role in bringing them together, though I don't think he'd be too happy about it. :sad:

This is seriously one of the best shipping articles I have read (and that says a lot), for it was very intelligent and well thought out. Your conclusion was the best, about Harry represents to Snape all that he hated and could have loved in the world.

I especially liked the point that you brought about by the life-debt Snape "owed" to James. From everything that Snape has (really) ever said about James, you know that they hated each other so much that Snape wouldn't even feel he needed to pay James back for anything for James had done nothing to deserve it except "save his own skin." Lily is one of the only explanations for Snape to show any kindness and/or protection to Harry.

Poor Snape, I mean he really is a sympathetic character who has lived through so many horrors in his life that it's no surprise he turned out into the bitter man that he did. Snape needs to wear more emotions on his sleeve, no matter how much he thinks it is a weakness, for at the same he is closing himself off to others.

If Snape only was able to thank Lily, he would have garnered more respect from her and a friendship could have formed, just like the initial way Harry and Ron became friends with Hermione: They saved her from the troll (and the ridicule of others that had brought her there) just because it was the right think to do, not because they were expecting anything out of it.

Anyway, thanks for the wonderful editorial! ;)

ooo, that's a good shipping article! not only was it unbiased (most articles out there tend to be quite...er...passionate to say the least), it was also very thought out and backed up with good points. none of that wishy-washy thing. it was very technical and very objective.

you know what i kept on thinking of while reading your article? helga ptaki and arnold from hey arnold! when helga was a toddler, harold and some other kids teased her, and only arnold made the move to defend her. when he did, the kids teased her some more, saying "oooo arnold and helga!!!" so instead of being grateful, she insulted arnold back! sound familiar?? of course we the viewers know the truth--that helga loves arnold like hell... not im not saying snape carried around a picture of lily wherever he went, or has a bubble-gum sculpture of her in his closet, but the similarities of the storyline DOES convince me that they theory of snape liking lily is probabale. i have heard this theory many times, but i always just scoff and turn my back on it. its only now that im giving it some consideration, cuz u backed it up so well, especially the part where snape seems to hate james more, even though its really sirius who's the more "evil" one.

I've always hated when people try to pair Snape and Lilly, but this editiorial really opened my eyes, I never really thought about how Snape's hatred for Harry goes beyond his hate for James, Harry is living, breathing proof of Snape's failure, and a constant reminder of how he lost Lilly to James, and whenever he looks at him he sees James, but also Lilly, wow, now I'm surpirised he doesn't need some serious therapy.

Very well done, I hope this plays out in the last books.

I loved this article. At first I thought it sucked, but I kept on reading and I found it interesting. The part that I didn't agree with is where you say that when Snape looks at Harry's eyes, he sees James. I like that you supported your evidence with that evaluation of Snape's worse memory.

With all of the terrible things Harry saw from Snape's childhood when he broke into his mind during Occumency lessons, it's quite hard to believe that the scene in the Pensieve could truly be "Snape's Worst Memory."

Now I'm sure Snape feels quite embarrassed and enraged by his treatment by the Marauders but I believe that "Snape's Worst Memory," this memory floating in the Pensieve, has to do with Lily. Let me be more specific: his worst memory has to do with himself AND his treatment of Lily. Lily is this girl who is intelligent and beautiful, with stunning emerald green eyes. She's the only person, other than Dumbledore, and the only female that we know of, to have ever courageously defended Severus and what does he do? He calls her names. Pretty tactless on his part.

That's where I realized you knew what you were saying. All that youo say doeshave reason. I can't believe that in the pensieve it's thatthought that is Snape's worst memory. But I just still have trouble getting myself to believe that Snape liked Lily. He could respect her, admire her, or feel guilty/ashamed of what he called her, but I can't imagine him loving her.

Maybe the reason Snape keeps saving Harry's life is much simpler: He wants to see Voldemort defeated and knows Harry is the only one who can do it.

Doesn't mean he wasn't in love with Lily anyway, though.

That was excellent. I did always have a hunch that snape had a little something for lily. Your concluding paragraph was amazing and you summed everything up in such an interesting way. I do think that one of the factors for JKR getting goosebumbs was from the Lupin and Harry scene (sorry, not buying her getting worked up about Ron/Hermione awkward moments...). I can't wait to find out more about snape in HBP, i believe its 22 days now...maybe 21...ahh!!! To much anxiety! Anyways, great job, very good support.

How beautifully written was this editorial? I love the idea of Snape and Lily. I complete agree with the fact that he despises Harry because he is Lily and James in one. The person he hates and loves in the one person. What a great Editorial....

Most cohesive shipping editorial yet!!!!
there has been so much speculation on why that memory in the pensieve was (or wasnt) Snape's worst, but this editorial really gave a rational understanding to his psyche.
He felt offended that someone like Lily, in front of whom,he wanted to be cool, strong and aloof, would come to his rescue! It simply caused his burning humiliation to turn to flaming anger (at his situation, james & co.) and directed it towards Lily.
In that state of mind, he couldnt have done anything different. His undoing seems to be a constant source of regret everytime he looks into those green eyes! He wants to make it up to Lily (through Harry) but he also seeks revenge from James (again through Harry!!)
Rachel's conclusion was spot on; Harry is a hodge-podge of everything Snape loathed and loved.From Snape's point of view its really Harry's fault that he's so screwed up!
He probably never thought that he'd face a dilemma of this sort when James and Lily got married!!!

:upset: :upset:

That is exactly how I feel about poor Severus. I mean I can't believe Jo telling us go for the nice guy when Sirius was a toad in his treatment of Snape. (Don't know about any of you guys I hope he stays dead I couldn't stand that arrogant git!) They say that people bully people out of jealousy.

JO if you read this can I ask you what the heck was Sirius jealous of Snape for? Sirius was as you say sexy :huh: (are you confusing Gary Oldman with the character?) rich, clever and had girls gushing at him everytime he walked into the room. :eyebrows:

Snape was NONE of these things and didn't even have manners yet...

Also you expect us to hate a character that you yourself have admitted to love writing! Sorry but be clear... should we or should we not hate Snape?

Anyway back to author of this superb ed. I also think it explains why he is otherwise nasty to Hermione, because she has Lily's personality and he knows that were she in his year would have done just the same. I can't help thinking that his protectiveness of her in the film (another changed scene) was another foreshadow.

I do think that one of the factors for JKR getting goosebumbs was from the Lupin and Harry scene (sorry, not buying her getting worked up about Ron/Hermione awkward moments...).

Completely agree with you iheartduckies!

Wow! great editorial! I agree with every word of it, I think that some of the people whom wrote and commented on the editorial about "Snape Worst memory" should read this one. I really think that this describes Snape's feelings most accurately.

P.S. To address Hermione Snape? comment about JKR telling girls to pick the good guys in the novel. She really is refering to Harry and Ron, and Sirius because he is grown up now. Not the arrogant git he was as a teen. Give him a break he was in Azkaban for 12 years.

I can't help thinking that his protectiveness of her in the film (another changed scene) was another foreshadow.

What scene was this?

Convincing editorial btw, congrats to the author :cool:

This is a brilliant editorial! Consise, well reasoned, and unbiased.

I guess I've never been fond of the idea of Snape and Lily because she is the mother of the hero of the story, and I never like to think of "the mother" ending up with somebody who wasn't "the father" and therefore never giving birth to the hero (or at least as we know him)

However, since reading OotP, I have felt it likely that Snape did have strong feelings for Lily...it's felt like an unavoidable fact.

Reading this article has only strengthened to view, and to be honest, it has reconsiled me more to this not being such an unsettling theory.

Loved this editorial!!!!!! When I first saw the title I expected a very tenuous link but your point on why this was Snape's worst memory was brilliant! After being a death eater, facing Voldemort etc his worst memory was when he was horrible to the girl he secretly loved. Great reasoning.

To the point mentioned above on when Snape protected Hermione - wasn't this when he pushed them behind him out in the grounds either from the transformed Lupin or dementors (sorry my inlaws have my DVD so I can't check)

After reading OotP, I too thought there was a connection between Lily and Severus-- on his part anyway. You've made a nice argument why it truely was Snape's worst memory. I would like to add one point --- adding to Snape's hatred of Harry -- Harry's not just the embodiment of Snape's hate/love objects (James/Lily, respectively), Harry is the very reason his love object (possibly the only person he's ever loved) is dead.

Thank you for an excellent, well-written article!

Interesting to me was JKR's verification that Harry's eye-color would be important in the upcoming books. I thought that magical power being transferred through eye-color was a little bit of a difficult situation, but the social/psychological power of Harry's eye-color in relation to Snape's memory of Lily makes much more sense.

I also look forward to some of the promised backstories that JKR is putting into these next two books. We will learn more about Lily and James as people and also the relationship between Snape and Sirius. I am sure that a rich character such as Snape will enjoy a delightful delving-into by book seven.

I do think there can be something between Lily and Severus, it would explain his hate for James and Harry, also explain why he protect Harry.
But Severus also showed so much hate for mudblood, in OOTP. Hummm :huh:

What a mysterious character Snape is!! I´m still waiting for many explanations about Snape in the next books

Wow. That brings a whole new perspective to the Snape-hates-Harry thing. If Snape loved Lily, he's jealous of James, making him hate James... It's a brilliant editorial, really!

This is a terrific editorial. A few comments, though...

Firstly, Is it not possible that Snape knows about the prophecy or knows Harry's importance in the war against Voldemort in general? If so, it would seem logical that Snape would try to protect him (maybe even on Dumbledore's orders).

Secondly, in terms of Harry's connection to Lily (most especially based on the eyes), I have written an editorial that is posted here: http://www.veritaserum.com/editorials/?view=13 -- if you're interested in the topic you should check it out (I wrote it about a year ago or so).

I have always believed that there were many romantic entanglements with Lily back in her Hogwarts days, and your editorial presents it quite well. Keep writing!

That's one of the best editorials I've ever read... a great insight into Snape's character (one of the most interesting in the book).

Notice that throughout Harry's life at Hogwarts thus far, Snape NEVER mentions Lily even though they had known each other throughout their school lives and after graduation from Hogwarts.

I was under the impression that Snape only had ONE life debt to pay off to James. Personally, given Snape's past experiences with James (and the fact that he blames ALL of the Marauder's regardless of if they were involved or not in the werewolf incident), I seriously doubt that Severus would care if he was indebted to James. (This is the same man who tried to hand Sirius over to the dementors regardless of if Sirius was innocent or not.)

You said it perfectly. :tu: I have always wondered about Snape's life debt to James. Like you said, Snape hated James too much that it wouldn't be surprising if he'd ignore the debt. But then again, it is a "magical bond," thus making it possibly much harder to cast aside. But Snape has already tried saving Harry countless of times (uttering a countercurse to Quirrell's curse to make Harry fall off his broom, coaching the next Quidditch match to prevent more mishaps of the kind), when does it become enough to pay off his debt? Until he gives up his own life for Harry? Now, I wouldn't want that for Severus, but really, when will he stop feeling indebted?

And this is how you answered me. And for this, I thank you... :agree:

However, I do believe that he would save Harry as penance to Lily. She tried to help him once (maybe many times). He would return the favor.

It could never have been said better. At least now, I understand why Snape keeps on saving Harry. It makes me feel safe to know that Snape might not feel he has to give his own life to pay the debt. He just does what he does as a penance to Lily...

When Snape looks into Harry's eyes, he sees Lily looking back at him. When he looks upon Harry's whole person, he sees James. In his entirety, Harry is a hodgepodge of everything Snape loved and hated all wrapped up in one. Harry is the walking, talking evidence of James and Lily's love for one another. Love that Severus Snape could not, did not, and will never have.

And there is no greater pain than this.

Underground Lake #21 (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theundergroundlake/tul21.shtml)

This is an essential read for anyone who really would like to understand Snape's Worst Memory from the pensieve... based on the title of this thread I would guess everyone here applies.

It doesn't refute what most of you have commented on at all, but it gives some very good support as to why we should not believe everything we "see" in the pensieve. We should remember that when the Marauders were acting most arrogant and decided to attack Snape "purely for Sirius boredom"... Snape Wasn't Even There!!

Ok, go read the article. :)

What scene was this?

Convincing editorial btw, congrats to the author :cool:

It was when Lupin had already turned to a werewolf, and Snape has just gotten out of the Whomping Willow. He uses himself as a shield between Lupin the werewolf and the Trio...

Excellent editorial! You made me realize I haven't been reading Snape with enough depth. Sure, having your underwear displayed IS embarrasing, but probably not your "worst" memory. Thanks for pointing it out and I'm going to pay more attention to chapter titles now.

yeah i guess it makes sense: when snape looks at harry he sees traces of the woman he loved and of the man he hated

I loved this editorial! It was so interesting. I think it really is true--hopefully we can learn more about it in the final books.

After OotP, I thought that Lily/Snape was possible. (Key word: possible) Now, after reading this editorial, I feel that it could be very true and extremely likely. Your comparison between Snape's hatred of James and his hatred of Sirius was very convincing for me and has now led me to want HBP even more than before! (If that is possible.)

I never really took the whole Snape/Lily ship seriously, before I read this; I must say that I'm beginning to think it possible,-as well as rooting for it-BUT only if it's from the Snape side of things! I really don't think Lily would have shared his feelings-poor Snape, unrequited love would definitely have screwed him up; especially if however-many years later he had to teach Harry-it would be so confusing for him! Ah, I just want to give Snape an extra big hug now!

What a wonderful editorial! I especially like that you did not assume there was a mutual relationship, just Snape's love for Lily.

I think some of Snape's angst comes from loving a muggle-born...

BTW, are we ever told if Snape is a pure-blood or not?

This was great shipping editorial and made things more clear especially about the fact that Harry is a walking talking James and Lily...poor Snape...

What a wonderful editorial! I especially like that you did not assume there was a mutual relationship, just Snape's love for Lily.

I think some of Snape's angst comes from loving a muggle-born...

BTW, are we ever told if Snape is a pure-blood or not?

I always assumed he was. Head of Slytherin house and all. Well written article, I'll have to chew on it a bit.

Oh...my...goodness! That was a great read! I'd pooh-poohed any Lily/Snape affections in the past, but you have totally changed my mind about Snape at least.

Wow! Well written! I've heard of this ship before, but disregarded it, but you put it so eloquently that it is almost heartbreaking, which is a hard thing to feel about Snape.

I thought JKR had said that there was more to him and maybe this is it.

I know I got kind of curious the way Lupin talked about Lily in the movie PoA; but maybe it wasn't Lupin that should have said that but Snape, so I can see how one could interpret JKR's "goosebumps" to this scene.

But could Lupin also have been involved in a crush on Lily? Your article acknowledges that perhaps she was a big "crush" item at school because not only was she beautiful and smart, but she was incredibly kind.

Anyway, really well done and I'll add this as a "past ship" ship. Is there a name for it? "Potion Flower" or something silly like that?

Very interesting! I am a huge believer in Snape's crush on Lily, and I can see the canon evidence to support this. I would like to take things a step further and propose that a friendship or similar bond was eventually forged, but we'll just have to wait for HBP to see if this true!

This is a great editorial. :clap:
The only thing I disagree with is that I was shocked to see how James behaved, because I always thought Snape was exagerating :sad: . Anyway, great job :clap: !

I really loved this article! It was objective to Snape's character, which can be very difficult. I think Snape is one of the most complex characters in the whole series, since you never know exactly where he stands, or what his motives are. You did a very good job at analyzing him! I hope the whole Lily/Snape thing is explained in HBP or HP7.

Fantastic ending - sums it up perfectly. It makes much more sense now... Harry being everything Snape hated and loved all in one. Explained so well that now I'm not sure if it was Lupin or Snape or both who had a crush on Lily... Anyway great editorial.

Someone mentioned that Hermione is very like Lily, and that is why Snape protects her in the PoA film. I think this may also account for the way he treats her normally, because she is a reminder of his worst memory, and of how horrible he was to Lily. This is more speculative, but if the Sibling Theory is true, then Hermione would be Lily's daughter, which would account for the similarity.

A lot of what was in the article, were suspicions I had for a while, but Sara's thoroughness, detail and the revelation about the scene in POA was astonishing!

Wonderful article. I'd be sooooo curious to see what JK thinks of it! It all makes perfect sense!!!!!

Snape is human and we all can act spiteful sometime or the other. This editorial really demonstrated the dangers of hating people. Snape isn’t a likable person, but he surely did not deserve the treatment he received from the marauders. Just as Harry realized that his father had a side which he always thought Snape was just exaggeration about, Snape realized that Harry isn’t just his father, he is his own person. With the treatment that Harry received from the Durslys that Snape wittiness in Harry’s mind, Snape may have made the realization that Harry and himself have more common ground than he ever thought. Snape cant keep punishing Harry for James actions simply because James is dead and there no one to take it out on because now he knows better. I think Snape was partly so mad because he finally realizes how much time he lost hating someone who really doesn’t deserve it. (or need it for that matter) Sorry about the rant!
Great editorial, it was unbiased and fair.

I have believed in the Snape/Lily idea for a very long time. Actually - I had a strong inkling of it even before OOTP came out although I sure couldn't tell you what exactly gave me that feeling. If I really had to guess -I think it would be the complete ABSENCE of a comment about Lily from Snape. Your discussion of that aspect was right on target.

Your discussion about the conversation in the third movie is also significant.

In short - I think that this is a real possibility. The editorial was written very carefully and very well. You made the points I would have made plus a few more I hadn't considered!

Harry/Snape shippers: yay!

(hating herself): Sibling Theory? What sibling theory?

Truth be told, I'm just glad this editorial didn't involve any anagrams... *Shudders* Right... Oh, and to answer someone else's question, good 'ol Snape isn't necessarily pure blood. People just assume he is, though considering he's head of Slytherin and friends with the Malfoy familly... well... while saying 'Tom Riddle wasn't pure blood!' seems like a cheapanswer, it is true.
As to the article itself... I don't necessarily think that Snape hates James Potter more than he does Sirius Black. After all... in PoA he's honest to goodness prepared to kill Sirius, if not curse him beyond repair, and the same goes for in OotP. While there isn't any particular evidence that he ever tried to do anything beyond hexing James, I'm fairly certain he didn't want him dead. But, I can agree that there is more between the marauders and severus than just the werewolf incident... who knows weather or not that just happens to have been Lily?
One last odd bit... just had to mention a strange coincidence. Someone else brought up a hair-pulling paralel... Well... How many of you are familiar with the Secret Garden? For those of you who aren't, essentially it's about a young girl who's parents die due to a plague (In india, I think...) so she's sent to live with her uncle, who's wife (Lily......) had died several years before, bearing his son. (Couldn't tell ya the kid's name for the life of me, though.)
At any rate, the little girl asks her uncle for a favour (it's not relevant what the favour actually was) and he agrees. Later, because this is the musical version, mind you, he sings a song about it. The song goes like this:
"She has her eyes,
She has my Lily's hazel eyes,
Two eyes that closed and left me long ago."

Lily Potter's eyes were green. But Jame's were hazel. And if the girl's uncle was sympathetic because she had his wife's eyes... I'll just leave you to ponder that...

Oh gosh, that was so sad! I loved it. So convincing. When I read that they posted a Lily/Snape editorial, I thought, "Pfft...yeah right." But you convinced me! Awesome job. I think your analysis of Snape was spot-on. I'm still :upset: .

Amazing! I always tink there something like that in the book... "Find THE woman and you will find the key of the problem"... It's a french proverb... :agree:

Bravo!

:upset: :upset:

That is exactly how I feel about poor Severus. I mean I can't believe Jo telling us go for the nice guy when Sirius was a toad in his treatment of Snape. (Don't know about any of you guys I hope he stays dead I couldn't stand that arrogant git!) They say that people bully people out of jealousy.

JO if you read this can I ask you what the heck was Sirius jealous of Snape for? Sirius was as you say sexy :huh: (are you confusing Gary Oldman with the character?) rich, clever and had girls gushing at him everytime he walked into the room. :eyebrows:

Snape was NONE of these things and didn't even have manners yet...

Also you expect us to hate a character that you yourself have admitted to love writing! Sorry but be clear... should we or should we not hate Snape?


Completely agree with you iheartduckies!
hey thanks for agreeing with me...but i think jkr just likes writing such a mysterious character. its up to you whether ya like snape or not. I think everyone likes snape to a degree cause hes so mysterious and actually doesn't take any of harry's **** :eyebrows: . and remind me when was sirius jealous of snape? i seem to be drawing a blank.

Definitely one of the best shipping articles I've read. It's completely reasonable, and I've always wondered how come that was Snape's worst memory.
However I do have one problem with it, and that's Snape doesn't hate James more than Sirius, did anyone miss the several encounters between Snape and Sirius where they're about to kill eachother. Besides, James was the one holding Snape upside down and humiliating him. It seems to me that Snape hates Sirius more than Harry, who is so much like James. But we don't often get to see Snape and Sirius hating each other since Harry's the one taking potions with Snape. That seems to stand in the way for the Snape loving Lily theory.
Still, I thought it was a brilliant editorial.

Very good article! I think that we are going to be surprised when we find out everything there is to know about Snape! and Lily too!

Wonderful article! I completely agree with it but have never been able to say it so eloquently! Snape is definitely one of the most intriguing characters and I think there's still a lot to him that we don't know about.

I can only pray we learn more on this topic on July 16th! :tu:

I dunno...it seems kinda farfetched...but you presented ur facts well and I was really shocked to look at this ship with a new perspective...KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!

I never really thought of it as Snape being embarassed about what he said to Lily, I just thought he was humiliated in front of people. It makes sense though. I really liked this editorial because it is so convincing. And the conclusion was perfect. Harry really is what Snape hates and loves.

Wow, after reading that I definitly believe you!! I never thought Snape would LOVE anyone!! Its CrAzY!! I wonder if Lily ever had feelings for Snape before James came along... probably not, but you never know. :p

A great read, very well thought out! Thanks!

Wonderful editorial! I've had a hunch about this for a long time, and I'm so glad somebody out there was able to put it into words.

Here is a quote from JKR that may support this theory:

From "The Connection" radio interview, October 12, 1999 (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html):

One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.

I also have a strong feeling that Snape and Harry forgiving each other (and James) will play a large part in the outcome of the series.

From OotP: "He would never forgive Snape, never..."

And of course, we always knew there was something special about Lily.

No one has mentioned this yet in reference to this particular article, but, if Snape was in love with Lily, wouldn't it be logical that he would get a tad upset when Voldemort blew her away? Could this possibly be the event that made Severus break his ties with Voldemort and the Death Eaters? Perhaps he even knew of the attack in advance and knew Harry was supposed to be killed (everyone knew the "Potters were marked for death" afterall). If Voldemort knew how Snape felt about Lily, and the Voldemort callously killed her for simply being in the way without even achieving his prime objective I think that would be enough to explain Snape's permanent defection.

Taken to the next level - (if this was an afternoon Soap Opera) - there might have even been an understanding that if Snape assisted Voldemort in taking out James and Harry he would be rewarded with the opportunity of consoling the grieving widow. If that was the case, things turned out just as wrong as they could have from Snape's perspective and he might feel partially responsible for the death of the woman he loved. Then there is the lovely bonus of having Harry under his nose to constantly remind him of what a horrible mistake he made. Adding irony to irony, if Snape was "in" on the hit, he probably also knows of the prophesy and believes that the only person that will be able to stop Voldemort and avenge Lily's death is Harry. He would not only have a vested interest in keeping Harry alive no matter how much he depises the boy, but may have a desire to see him develop a high level of discipline and focus in preparation for the eventual final confrontation. This could be yet another reason Snape is particularly hard on Harry when he exhibits impulsive, emotionally reactive behaviors that defy common sense (but then that's why we love Harry). :agree:

Far fetched? Definitely. A thread taken to the extreme, yes. But I would not be surprised if some of these elements surface at least to some degree.

wow, i don't think i would have thought that one up in a million years... it does make sense. it's not so obvious because Snape is such a jerk most of the time. it would be interesting if this was true. i mean, there is a good chance draco likes hermione, but nothing will happen there cuz he's such a "FOWL, LOSOME, LITTLE COCHROACH!"

I've always suspected that Snape liked Lily, but have never been able to actually put it together like that. Brilliant editorial! It's tragic that Snape loved Lily, and Lily didn't love him back, but I'm still glad that Lily married James, because I think they make a better couple. But I do feel bad for Snape, since nobody will probably every care for him or even pity him like Lily did. Maybe there's enough of that feeling that Lily had in Harry so that Snape and Harry finally get along. Harry also must have some of the qualities of Lily that made Snape like her. Well, anyways, good job!

I recall that in GOF Dumbledore stated in the Pensieve trial that Snape had been spying for the Order a year before Voldemort's downfall.

So, no, Voldemort killing Lily could not be why he turned to the Order - but the idea of Voldemort attacking the Potter's could. :D (Some people tend to forget this minor detail)

*By the Way - the editorial is wonderfully executed. It makes logical sense with canon. I hope we find out more about Snape in HBP... I suspect we will with the Advanced Potions book on the cover :eyebrows: !!!

Excellent editorial. I agree with alot of what I read, and the rest I'm still nuetral. One thing for sure, I really love snape. He's so imperfect. Two, we can't judge children acting immature, to be the same as adults. We change sooooo much in those years. Snape, James, and Sirius turned out to be different men than in the formitave years, thankfully; and I have wondered for a couple of years now how J.K will mature the characters in this all out war, that is getting under way? I know from talking to older people who have lived in war times that you mature very quickly, and life takes on a whole new meaning. I thought about the marauders, in this respect as well, maybe they matured quicky because of war. Any thoughts?

At first I didn't really want to read this editorial. I thought it was just going to be like the other ships that are far-fetched and don't really have any proof behind them. But what you said about Snape makes so much sense. I thought it was a great editorial, and it explains him so much and in a much deeper way. Great job!

That had to be the best Sev/Lily essay I've ever read! It strickly stuk to the canon facts without delving into fanon speculation, which I found very refreshing and I think definatly adds a whole lot more credibility (and believability) to our ship. Way to go! :tu:

I've been thinking about this a lot and I'm so glad you worded it so perfectly! I have wondered if James and Severus were more than just mere rivals in school and, thankfully, you have posted the editorial I could never put into words as smoothly as you did. I'm just glad I'm not the only one who agrees with this. It makes perfect sense!

Although I agree with this editorial for the most part, I believe that Snape himself hates himself for liking Lily in the first place. During the chapter "Snape's Worst Memory" in OotP, he distinctly calls her a Mudblood, which could be evidence that he was fighting his love for her, as it defied everything that he believed in (purity of blood, etc). Therefore, he ends up hating himself.

Then, as you stated, his hatred for Harry (sprouting from his jealousy that Harry is made of the love he never had), is also a hatred of himself.

As for Lily's response, I believe that her protection of Snape is merely her moralistic and ethical values. Her response to the above name-calling, causes her to react in a manner similar to the Marauders, by distinctively calling him 'Snivellus'. Also, when James turned Snape upside down in that scene, her "furious expression [twitches] for an instant as though she was going to smile."

I want to make two things clear!

I was only saying jealousy is one of the main reasons people bully other people. Snape was most assuredly jealous of Sirius. My mother was bullied by one the most popular girls in her year (I think even teachers liked her!) at the end of her academic ed my mum decided to confront her and asked her why, the girl replied, 'because you have your mum at home waiting for you I don't have my mum waiting for me!' there something so simple. My mum wasn't even ugly, or anything! She actually looked a little like Emma dressed as Hermione. I was saying if jealousy was the motive in Sirius' treatment what could it have been? It was my speculation and not canon, sorry for the confusion.

All right iheartduckies I hope thats cleared that up. And to all the people confused as to what I meant by Snapes protectiveness here it is.

Secondly. Hermione was protected by Snape when Harry went off to find Sirius Hermione was about to follow him but Snape grabbed her around the waist and held her to his chest, (I watch Alan Rickman scenes closely!) Watch that scene it is there. :tu:

Also to the person who mentioned Secret Garden Mary's cousin is called Colin. It is one of my fave stories!

you know, i think you can be right... nice one!!

I don't have PoA with me, but I'm sure Dumbledore said there (perhaps in the pensieve scene?) that Snape abandoned Voldemort before Voldemort was incapacitated at Godric's Hollow. This means that 1) Snape didn't just abandon a sinking ship but left Voldemort when V was still very powerful, and 2) he didn't leave because of Lily's death.

WONDERFUL! You put into words what I was thinking! With every new book I've been dying for more on Snape...now that we're getting down to the last 2 books...I'm looking so forward to more answers on Snape. Thanks for a great article...from a great Snape fan.....(okay...it's really Alan Rickman!)

I'm thinking that if Snape did like Lily, and Harry has her eye color, then Harry's eye color would be significant, which J.K. Rowling has sort of insuniated, or at least not vetoed as a theory. I think it's possible that Snape used to like Lily, and that would be reason enough for him to hate Harry. As much as it depresses me, I'm not sure Harry and Snape will ever be friends at all, which means Snape might be marked for some kind of sadly heroic death. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE NOOOOOOOO!

i really liked ur editorial!! maybe lily helped snape out of being a death eater or somthing. which makes him want to protect harry

who can see a dramatic part of the 6th or 7th book in which snape confesses his love for lily to harry out of some kind of rage and then just kicks harry out of his office again? *cricket**cricket* ok maybe its just me...

WOW that makes sooo much sense! I loved this editorial! Wow. Just.. wow.

You're editorial fits into J.K.'s books like a puzzle piece! I can't wait to see if you're right!

*bites lip and starts repeating "Only twenty more days only twenty more days only twenty more days...*

~Fairawen~

Great editorial :tu:

When most people have hated Snape i have for some reason liked him but i dont no why. To say that Snape has felt an emotion such as love is really good because it should change peoples views on him and make him seem more human.

Also i hope that this particular crush is true because it could change a lot of feelings among people in Potterverse towards Snape because they will begin to feel sorry for him.

Again great editorial and i cant wait till HBP comes out to find out if this, among with many other rumours and ideas are true :)

Highly interesting and I have nothing more to add. I don't like this pairing at all because I don't see Severus loving anyone that Harry knows. However, this article did make me realize just how blind I had been about the possibilities that Severus did fancy Lily. I liked the article a lot and I like it even more for mentioning Severus's debt to James. I never thought he really saved Harry all those times because of that one debt--saving Harry once was more than enough. But then again, as someone mentioned, Severus could be saving Harry to see the fall of Voldemort come true.

Well the Snape/Lily thing makes perfect sense to me. There's just one thing, in PoA (the movie) Lupin also mentions Lily but not James (in the bridge scene) that made me think what if Lupin liked Lily too? And what's the something huge revealed about Lily in the sixth book? Ahhhhhhh! I just want HBP already!

You know, before OotP, Lily/Snape was about as common as Cho Chang /Charlie Weasley. Now everyone thinks it's possible. Lily Snape is impossible of course... because Lily's gone.

a piece of evidence that apeals to the L:S shipper in me is that Snape keeps saving Harry's life. I think S repaid his debt to James after the Sorcerer's Stone incident and has kept rescuing Harry ad nauseum out of whatever to Lily.

"Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt. I do believe that he worked so hard to protect you this year because it would make him and your father even."
Dumbledore wasn't lying when he said that; i think he just omited something. it would have been to much of a shock to Harry to reveal that his most hated teacher had a thing for his mother.
Now, if they ever did anything or if it was chaste remains highly speculative. I don't think anything happened but I do think Snape was moved.

I also think it may have to do with why Dumbledore trusts him.

i LOVE this editorial!... :tu: it makes so much sense of why Snape would hate Harry so much...
Poor Snape...i cant imagine what it would be like to look into a persons eye and be reminded of the love you never had (Lily in snapes case) and the reason why you never had it (James)... Poor guy...
About that scene in PoA the movie, the one with Lupin and Harry on that bridge thing.. i interpreted what lupin said about Lily as a confession of his love for her... or maybe his love for her as a sister...hmm not sure anymore...
i cant seem to be able to picture Lily in my mind... :sad:
Any ways...I cant wait til the HBP comes out.. so curious on why Snape is soo creepy.. and why Dumbledore trusts him so much...

First, I want to say that this is one of those amazing articles that comes along once in a blue moon. Everything fits, and I am officially converted into believing that Snape loved Lily.

I was thinking about it, and I thought about something else. What if the reason for Snape turning into a good guy was Lily's death at the hands of his master? In Ootp, Snape says that he has been teaching at Hogwarts for 14 years (American version, page 363). I'm assuming that Dumbledore wouldn't hire Snape unless he knew he could trust him, so this means that Snape turned good when Harry was an one-year-old. Which is right about the time when Voldemort killed his parents.

Sorry if anyone else had posted this theory before me, I didn't go through all the posts.

rombone--Dumbledore says in PoA that Snape abandoned Voldemort before V was vanquished at Godric's Hollow (he didn't say how long before; of course you're right that Dumbledore wouldn't have hired Snape the Active Death Eater). So Lily's death had nothing to do with it. Lily herself might've, though.

I loved this editorial, it made me see things ive just never been bothered about before. I do now think Snape would have loved Lily in one way or another (who couldnt after all she is perfect). It totally just shone light on the situation. :)
I dont favour the idea of Snape/Lily because i am totally in love with the relatioship James and Lily had, but this made me think outside the box.

I would go on but i have an appointment with Mr. Johnny Depp in 1 minute :p

OMG!!! I'm so ecstatic! I can't believe my editorial was put up! (I'm the author, btw.)

Thank you all for the wonderful comments, input, and criticism! I try to be as unbiased as I can and more objective when analyzing characters. (I analyize things quite a bit because I'm an artist and an anthroplogy and science major.) I'm a people watcher and I like trying to place myself in others shoes and try to see just what makes them tick. (Oddly enough, I know a few people who are almost exactly like Snape.) Snape would be a psychiatrist's dream come true. They'd have a field day with him!

For me, Snape is one of my absolute favorite characters in the series. He is just so human and (to an extent) people can relate to him and his experiences and understand why it is he's so bitter. I love him and hate him. He's obviously not a good person but he's so mysterious and intriguing. He's such a tortured soul.You just don't know what goes on his head. His character is evolving in such interesting ways and I can't wait to find out more about him. Just to make things clear- I do NOT believe the feeling was mutual for Lily (which I hope was clear in my editorial). I think she was a very caring and kind individual who is willing to stick up for someone even if she didn't care for them, emotionally.

I ran across this interview with Jo recently from around the time OotP came out and thought it appropriate to the topic at hand:
Jeremy Paxman: Are we going to discover anything about Snape?
JKR: Yes.
Paxman: And Harry's mother? Did he have a crush on Harry's mother or unrequited love or anything like that?
JKR: Hence his animosity towards Harry?
Paxman: Yes.
JKR: You speculate?
Paxman: I speculate, yes. I'm just asking whether you can tell us.
JKR: No, I can't tell you.

Now to answer a few poster's questions:

Phoenician: For some odd reasom, I didn't even think of the fact that Snape wouldn't like Harry because Harry was, technically, the reason that Lily had died! Good catch!

HermyOwnPuckle: That's true about the prophecy. This is kind of tricky though, because we don't know who all knows about the prophecy. I'm sure DD probably told the Order about it, including Snape. But to what extent, we don't know. Knowing now how much DD really cares for Harry, I'd have to think that DD never told anyone what the full prophecy was in case it were to get out into the open and possible to Voldemort's ears.

LadyKrystyna: I do believe that Lupin could've also had a crush on Lily as well (and possibly many other people who knew her). Because like I said in the essay- she was an extraordinary woman. Sometimes you can come across a person that is so remarckable that it's no surprise that they are wll loved and respected by all.

Opaxia: I think Jo said somewhere (dunno where though) that to be a Death Eater, you had to be pureblood.

Wafaa: Well, I didn't say that Snape and Sirius didn't hate each other, because they really really do. (Obviously when they try to kill each other in the Grimmauld Place kitchen.) Just that Snape seems to hate James so much more. Since James is dead, it would be impossible to know how the two would react when put in a room together. Although, I'd have to say- very badly indeed.

EEEvergood: Snape came over to the Order before the downfall of Voldemort. DD gave testimony to the Wizengamot during all of the Death Eater trials.

Nysh: I totally agree with you that Snape hates himself for liking Lily. *nods*

AnnabellaRiddle: The point of my editorial was not to insinuate that both Snape and Lily were smitten with each other. Just to put out a theory that Snape (and Snape alone, not Lily) had a bit of a crush on Lily. I mean, obviously, nothing can be done about that because she's dead and she was married to James. But just because someone dies, it doesn't mean that your love for them dies too. I had the theory well before OotP came out, but the 5th book was kinda like the tip of the iceberg for me.

I think that it a good way of looking at why Snape loathes Harry. I could see him liking Lily. That's interesting! :love:

[QUOTE=IntoTheForest] I think Jo said somewhere (dunno where though) that to be a Death Eater, you had to be pureblood.

Actually, someone asked if Snape was a pureblood and JKR said that Snape was no muggleborn since muggleborns were not allowed to become Death Eaters except in rare circumstnaces.

Anyway, this has been a subject of debate on H.P.A.N.A. and I took the liberty of posting the link of your editorial to the thread on H.P.A.N.A. Many really like your eloquence in detail and agree with everything you said.

[QUOTE=Apollonia1][QUOTE=IntoTheForest] I think Jo said somewhere (dunno where though) that to be a Death Eater, you had to be pureblood.

Actually, someone asked if Snape was a pureblood and JKR said that Snape was no muggleborn since muggleborns were not allowed to become Death Eaters except in rare circumstnaces.

There was a Worldbook day chat and two people questioned the purity of two separate characters. One asked about Lupin to which she directly replied he was a Halfblood. Another a few questions down asked about Snape and she said.

'His ancestry has been hinted at!' er where? :huh:

My guess is that Snape's mother might've been a Muggleborn.

Apollonia1: Ahhhh... I see. Very eeenteresting indeed. I hope we find out more about his background (as well as other characters, like Dumbledore and Lupin, as well). Jo also said that ancestry is all in the eye of the beholder in the wizarding world, which is definately something to keep in mind when thinking of Snape. Thanks for linking my editorial! I'm overwhelmed at the great responses I've been getting about it. (Thanks all!) :) I wonder what 'rare circumstances' there must be to be able to jion Voldemort if you aren't a pureblood? It could definately be talking about Snape. (Most likely.) Or one of the many other followers he has. [Where did you get your username, btw? 'Apollonia' was the name of the comatose psychic in the show Carnivale.]

Hermione Snape: I forgot that Lupin was a Halfblood! *makes mental note* I wonder where it's hinted at? The only place I can think of where we see or know about Snape's parents is the whole itty bitty mind clip, when Harry breaks into his mind, where his father is being an abusive jerk. Hmm.

*goes off into the wilderness to ponder this*

IntoTheForest : I can't wait to find out more about Snape's background as well. :)

As far as the rare circumstances that would enable a muggleborn to become a Death Eater, I believe tremendous talents wouldn't hurt as well as interest in the Dark Arts. Not to mention a strong dislike for Harry Potter. After all, no one would suspect a muggleborn to be in with Lord Voldemort, which would work to his advantage toward killing Harry.

BTW, I got my name from one of my favoriite actresses, Apollonia Kotero, who was in the movie "Purple Rain." I **** when I read about the comatose psychic. L.O.L.

But Snape went to work for Voldemort before there was a Harry, if I remember correctly! He was burned with the Dark Mark before he left V's service, which was before Godric's Hollow.

This article was great, i enjoyed reading it loads,
it's great coz i wondered if the whole snape like lilly was one of the reasons that snape detests harry. VERY well put together and great evidence as well
can't wait to see what unfolds in the next two books ????? :tu:

Oh, one more note... For all of those who mentioned Snape quite being a death eater because Lily was killed (and for all those of you who retorted that Snape left Voldemort BEFORE Harry got his scar...) how about this as an alternative; Severus joined dumbledor a good year before the Potters were killed. (and was awarded the job of potions master after the war ended...) So... What happened a good year before the Potters were killed...? The prophecy! And the only people to hear that particular prophecy were Trelawney, DD, and a spy, who only got the first bit, before getting caught.
If the spy just happened to be Snape, and he was still keeping tabs on Lily, there's a good chance he knew who the prophecy applied to... and he may have switched sides because of this. *Shrugs* But who knows for sure...?
Please tell me if that made any sense whatsoeveratall.

Wow this was a good article . . . I hadn't even considered the possibility until reading this, and now I think it's very plausable. In fact I think it's highly likey.

I'm almost suspecting (though I have no proof whatsoever), that Snape at one point or another (7th year) worked up the courage to do something about his feelings for Lily, but James had already beat him to it. So Lily had to gently let him down. Sort of like what happened to Harry when Cedric beat him at asking Cho to the Yule Ball. Harry hated Cedric after that, so maybe the same thing happened with Snape?

Well, just a thought.

Anyway, great article, again. You've officially converted me. :tu:

As first mate of the S.S. Cliched over on FAP, I just wanted to say how impressed I am with this essay.

The biggest misconception about our ship is that we all want Snape to be making kissy faces at Lily in charms class. :huh: S/L shippers think the S/L ship is possible with canon!Snape. JKR showed us in book 5 with Snape's Worst memory that there's more to Snape than meets the eye. Yes Snape is a bitter horrible man NOW, but what about when he was 15? To think that Snape never had feelings for anyone his entire life is just crazy to me.

JKR's quotes on Snape also hint to something between Snape/Lily:

The Connection Interview(1999) (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html)

One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape

JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.


BBC interview, 2003 (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2003/0619-bbcnews-paxman.htm)

JEREMY PAXMAN: Are we going to discover anything more about Snape ?

JK ROWLING: Yes.

JEREMY PAXMAN: And Harry's mother? Did he have a crush on Harry's mother or unrequited love or anything like that?

JK ROWLING: Hence his animosity to Harry?

JEREMY PAXMAN: Yes.

JK ROWLING: You speculate?

JEREMY PAXMAN: I speculate, yes, I'm just asking whether you can tell us.

JK ROWLING: No I can't tell you. But you do find out a lot more about Snape and quite a lot more about him actually.


Great essay and I love how you touched on Snape/James/Harry. I've written about that myself.

Once again, excellent!

PrettyVeela: Thanks for the kind words! I for one would never want to see Snape making kissy faces at Lily. How creepy would that be! LOL. Having been a teenager at some time, I know how people can keep all their feelings locked up inside. (Especially for people that they may have a crush on. We tend to make fools of ourselves, don't we? And might even offend them, even if it wasn't in our intentions. Some people are just sociallly inept. Like our Severus Snape.) Like I mentioned in one of the above posts somewhere, I know a couple of people who are almost exactly like Snape- in the ways that they act around people that you think they might, emotionally, like to their very bad childhoods to their lonesome behaviors. And as adults, they are, in fact bitter, just like Snape is. I tried to make this article as uncliched and as objective as possible with evidence to support my theories so that it could seem concievable that Snape could have had an unknown crush on Lily.

Opaxia: Wow! That didn't even occur to me that the person who overhaed the prophecy and was thrown out of the Hog's Head could've been Snape! He was, after all, supposed to be spying on DD for Voldemort. (Although, I'd have trouble seeing Snape at such a skeezy place like the Hog's Head. Even though Snape is a slimeball, I kinda see him as being somewhat stuck up, in a sense.) I wonder if we'll find out who had overheard it? I was kind of thinking that it might've been Willy Wildershins or some other crook.

Yes Snape is a bitter horrible man NOW, but what about when he was 15? To think that Snape never had feelings for anyone his entire life is just crazy to me.


Yes I agree, he is human after all, and I really do hope we learn more about this in the next books.

Also, have any of you noticed that Snape went out to sit at the tree along with James and Sirius and them? He could have easily gone to his common room, or somewhere else in the school, but he chose to sit by the lake with everybody else. We all know James went out there to watch Lily, why not Snape too?

I would find it odd for him to just sit out there for no reason, particularly since he hated James and Sirius so much.

There is definately a lot more to Snape then meets the eye. :huh:

There is another situation that can also relate to this: when Snape is teaching Harry Occlumency, one of the images Harry sees in his mind is his parents looking at him from the Mirror of the Erised: "A great black dragon was rearing in front of him... his father and mother were waving at him out of an enchanted mirror... Cedric Diggory was lying on the ground with blank eyes staring at him... (...) 'Get up!' said Snape sharply. 'Get up! You are not trying, you are making no effort. You are allowing me access to memories you fear, handing me weapons!' (...) Snape looked paler than usual, and angrier, though not nearly as angry as Harry was."
Now, why would Snape be paler? Because of the dragon? I don't think so. Because of Cedric? I doubt it. Because Harry was handing him weapons? That would be a treat. That leaves James' and Lily's sight. And I don't think that James's was the kind of image to make him paler...

This is indeed a wonderful editorial.

PrettyVeela: He was, after all, supposed to be spying on DD for Voldemort.

Wasn't it the other way around? Spying on Voldemort to Dumbledore?

Whatever the answer is we only have 11 days to go!

The Wise: You know what? I actually thought of that right after I submitted the editorial (like, literally, that afternoon). Grr grr. But I had written about that scenario with Snape seeing Lily and James in the Mirror of Erised during his breaking into Harry's mind in my personal copy of the Lily/Snape ship. I mean, he didn't seem to terribly miffed when Harry had broken into his own mind just moments before. Why would he choose that exact moment to look paler and appear angrier than the moment called for? Was it because of Lily? [Another thought (that has nothing to do with my editorial but with another question that roams around the message boards): Was it becuase of Cedric and was he actually present at the graveyard that night and we weren't aware?] Addressing your comment to PrettyVeela: I thought Snape was a duel spy. Just that DD is aware that Snape is supposed to be spying on him for Voldemort. Maybe he feeds Snape info to give to Voldemort so that Voldemort won't feel like Snape is a traitor and whatnot. (Snape being aware of all that of course.)

IntoTheForest: I just read now an opinion which raises a very good point: that when Snape was telling Quirrel that he should work for the "good" side, Voldemort was all along inside his turban. I always assumed, also, that at the end of GoF, what Snape did was coming back to Voldemort with the story: "I have been biding my time but now I have come back to serve you, my Lord.", basically. But actually, if he was pretending to spy on Dumbledore, that would fit better with the situation.
One thing is certain, though: now that I read your editorial, I think it very, very likely that Snape had a crush on Lily. Only 9 days now to go, fortunately - although I don't know if we will see that in HBP. And also that about the "pale" thing: I don't think he could be there. When Wormtail killed Cedric there were no Death Eaters there still, and I also don't think he is the kind of person to show emotion because of that. I really think that was because of Lily.
I say it again: it is a very good editorial. I had never been so suddenly enlightened by one.

The Wise: Hmm now that's pretty interesting about the Snape/Quirrellmort scene. *ponders this* I can't wait to find out more about Snape. He's such a complicated character. Even if the Lily/Snape thing isn't mentioned in HBP or even in the 7th book, maybe it's a question we can ask Jo after the series is complete (and actually get our questions answered)! :) I agree with you though on the 2nd part about Cedric and Snape. Snape is definately not the type of person to show any emotions and I, too, do think that he was 'paler' because of Lily's presence he saw (and not JUST Lily, but Lily with James- his archnemesis). However, Cedric's body didn't just disappear after the Death Eaters started apparating around the graveyard. It lingered and was everpresent during the whole graveyard scenario. Poor Cedric's body, dead, lying spread eagle on the ground. If Snape was there, it's not like he was going to waltz up to Voldemort complaining about it- he'd have to take it like a man, not look suspicious or caring. But I'm sure seeing a 17 yr old kid dead, lying before your eyes, who even if he didn't care for him, would still be a shock. After all, Snape has known and taught Cedric for the better part of Cedric's life. That can't be an easy thing to come across. And hard not to pretend not to care. (Like the expression on Snape's face when he walks into Umbridge's office after she finds Harry's head in her fireplace and Harry's friends are in headlocks. He tries to look indifferent and uncaring, but he probably is quite interested in what's going on and at least a little worried about the consequences that are about to happen.)

IntoTheForest: But "paler" is something that I think doesn't fit in for Cedric. Oh well... We better just ask Jo that :) Also, I still need to think a bit more about Quirrel's turban aka Voldemort - and put the pieces together about Snape...
I can't wait for the book to come!
By the way: nice nickname!

Thanks The Wise! (My nickname, 'IntoTheForest' is a combo of the Forbidden Forest and a song from the old tv show Twin Peaks titled 'Into The Night.' Heehee)

About the Quirrelmort thing... there was an editorial some time ago about just that topic. I don't remember what it was called but you might want to look through the editorial archives for more info to help put the pieces together.

Great Work! I would like to add something that I have written for another editorial and see how you feel it plays into the Snape/Lily relationship...
"I believe that Snape had great hopes for himself,sparked by the anger and teasing he got as a child,and that he wanted to be the all-powerful wizard. Lacking money and personality, something went horribly wrong with his quest for power, Lucius and Tom Riddle used him (Snape), and Riddle became the Dark Lord."

Perhaps Snape's ambitions repulsed Lily. Can't you just see a " marry me and we'll be the most powerful family ever" scene? :eyebrows:
Lupin probably was Lily's first love, but that once a month problem prevented them from being a couple. Still, they developed a mutual respect and fondness for each other.
Let me know what you think. You have written a great editorial!

Hmm, I dunno HappyHippo. I can't see Snape trying to impress anyone, especially a girl. Although, I do agree with you on the point that Snape wanted to make something of himself- to prove himself, or his worth due to his horrible life while growing up, a kind of thirst for self improvement- but only in his own eyes. Meaning that he'd want to feel strong and in control for himself. I think his joining the Death Eaters, at first, seemed like a good idea to him. He could train himself up, learn new powerful spells, feel more confident, make long lasting friendships, etc. But when Voldemort had shown his true colors, he panicked, and decided to turn spy. (because after all, its a lifetime of service or death.) I think Snape was a lonely kid who let his friends (Lucius, Bellatrix, etc.) influence his thinking and joined the DE so as not to lose his friends.

We don't know much about Lily yet in the series, but I don't think she was the kind of person to be repulsed by Snape. He's just not her type of person to date OR be friends with. Especially since at that time (or maybe even today) he was into pureblood supremacy and she obviously doesn't fit in there.

Snape doesn't show any sign of positive emotions that can be controlled easily by others or manipulated in such a way that could be humiliating, or worse, deadly. He's waaaaay to protective of himself. As amusing as it is to imagine Snape on bended knee spouting his love at Lily, it's VERY unlikely that that could have ever happened.

I do agree that Lupin probably loved Lily, but not so much to claim that they dated. I think Lily was an exceptional person and that there were probably many people who were infatuated with her in some way. I think Lupin probably just loved her as a good friend and respected her. When she found out he was a werewolf, she was probably the most sypathetic and could lend a hand or an ear when he was in need. The books themselves kind of hint that she didn't really date anyone til what, a year or two later when she began dating James. Sirius and Lupin discuss the matter with Harry and they don't mention she dated anyone else and they aren't upset at the topic (signifying that they weren't in love with her or it was a painful topic to talk about.)

Sniffy"I loved this editorial! Although I really don't care for the idea of Snape loving Lily, I'm beginning to think it true.

Your analysis of the Potions Master was very accurate, and it impressed me. I hate him, and at the same time, I feel sorry for him. I cannot imagine holding so much in; those emotions must be eating him alive.

I also liked how you compared Snape's hatred for both Siruis and James. That seemed like the most convincing evidence to me. What other reason would he have for not hating them both equally, if it wasn't about Lily?"

I feel that EXACT same way

SPOILER WARNING!!!!!!










I am APPALLED with Snape's attitude. But I still think that this editorial makes sense. I never thought that they had something together, purely a one-way crush from snape to Lily. What do you think?

I'm surprised it took me this long to find this thread. I totally agree that there was a Snape/Lily thing, and after book 6, it was all the more evident--both with a penchant for potions, they must have come across each other's path frequently. Perhaps tutoring?

I've always harbored this suspision that Snape sees Lily--the one he loves--in Harry, and thus his incredible pain in Harry's presence.

I also think that the reason Snape came back to the good side was because he realized that Voldy had interpreted the information to mean Harry, and that he was mortified that this meant that Lily was going to be in danger.

I also think Dumbledore is aware of this reason, and it is specifically why he trusts Snape so implicitly. Dumbledore will trust anyone who is capable of love--especially love at risk to their own life. I have my suspicions, but I believe that Snape came back over to the good side when he saw the consequences of passing along the prophecy to V, and perhaps even helped protect the Potters as long as he could. Now, every time he sees Harry, he sees his own failure--and complicity--in Lily's death.

I also think he and Lily devised the protection that was given to Harry when she died. A sort of Anti-horcrux. But that's for another thread.

Anyhow, I do firmly believe that this editorial is correct, and that Snape and Lily had a relationship--whether it was both ways, I'm not sure, but Snape certainly loved Lily.

I liked this editorial, it was really interesting and a really good theory..im such a sucker for romance!!!

It also ties in with the fact Lily was really good at potions, maybe thats when snape first started to notice Lily??? and the fact Slughorn always, always brings up LIly's eyes. There is this big emphasis on her eyes in this book, surely that has to be significant to something ie. the fact harry looks alot like his dad but has his mothers eyes, tying in everything snape hated and loved (as the editorial says). i dunno...it just my 2 cents, far fetched but oh well :D

rombone--Dumbledore says in PoA that Snape abandoned Voldemort before V was vanquished at Godric's Hollow (he didn't say how long before; of course you're right that Dumbledore wouldn't have hired Snape the Active Death Eater). So Lily's death had nothing to do with it. Lily herself might've, though.

Spoiler warning!
I think that Snape came over right after he realized that the information he gave to Voldermort had been translated in a way that put Lily in danger, so yes, it would have been close to Harry's 1st birthday.

In fact, I wonder if he helped protect the Potter's for as long as they survived, and possibly has something to do with the protection that passed from Lily to Harry.

I did a little dance after realising I'd been right about Snape being the spy who overheard trelawney's prophecy, then abruptly stopped after realising what it meant. (And added a couple of 'drat it alls!' in for good measure...)
So... if it's generally agreed that the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape was because he liked Lily... like someone mentioned earlier, Snape tells Voldemort, and Voldemort Assumes that Harry's the chosen one. So... (and please don't hit me for saying this...) maybe Severus didn't work something out with Lily before hand. I'm kind of doubting that they were on speaking terms, for some reason or other... But maybe V. found out that Snape liked Lily, and that's the reason he told her she could just step aside... or he made it a point when passing on the information to strike some kind of deal (Since Voldemort doesn't really seem like the rewarding type... It's more of a 'do what I tell you, or I'll kills yas'.) not to harm Lily. (I'm fairly sure there's a JK quote somewhere saying that V honestly would have left Lily alone if she hadn't gotten in the way...)
What I'm getting at, here, is that if it was some part of Severus' doings that Voldemort was prompted to offer not to kill Lily, giving her the choice to lay her life down for her son, and making Harry the boy who lived........ Well... You can kind of see what I mean, right?
But that's potentially the past, if it's even true. Snape's pretty well just an extremely horrible person, who, at the end of the 6th book, did an extremely horrible thing. I know the arguments for both sides, and don't know who's right. All I do know that Severus is going to die in the seventh book. (Darn it!)

Spoiler Warnings!

Don't worry, The Wise, I'm quite appalled with Snape's behavior in HBP too. Well, I never said he was a good person.

Neiner: I agree. Now we know that Snape and Lily crossed paths often for the were both great at potions and a part of the Slug Club. I do not think DD gave the real reason as to why he trusts Snape to Harry in the HBP. Although, I do think that the fact that Snape overheard the prophecy was a part of the reason- but not in its entirety. I'm hoping we find this out (maybe from Snape's own mouth) in book 7. I think that it was a one-ended thing though. That is that Lily felt nothing (and knew nothing) of Snape's infatuation with her. I think you're heading in the right direction for the reason why Snape turned to the good side... ^_^

Opaxia: That's a very interesting theory :-D And, yes. He is a very horrible person. I have my reasons for believing that he's still on the good side. And I agree- Severus is going to pay. Severely.

Very good editorial! Backs up what I've thought about for a long time now too. Dumbledore does an awful lot of explaining to Harry about the power of love. Is he maybe trying to give Harry a hint of why he trusts Snape so completely? It makes sense if we want to find a reason for Snape to have turned his back on Voldemort. Dumbledore believes in the power of love, and he believes in Snape..... 2 things he tells Harry to trust him on. If this theory is the case, then even Snape probably isn't very happy about it, but even he may know that in the end love will triumph over evil.

Although I always thought that Snape was never a good person - Jo said herself we should be warned - I was definitely appalled by his attitude. Actually, I had a very great desire to kick the people that stood for him no matter what, at least at that time. Clearly not to be trusted, I trusted him to some extent because I trusted Dumbledore, and this is not a bad reason to trust someone after all. Nevertheless, it takes a true heartless person to do what Snape did, and I didn't thought he would be that bad. Maybe there is something else but I really don't think that, whatever there is, it will put him in a very positive light.

You're right, The Wise, Snape ISN'T a very good person. I, for one, never thought he was. He's a tortured soul. Bitter. Evil. But it still doesn't mean that there's not something inside of him that could do (or actually does do) the right thing. I, too, was in absolute shock over his behavior in the HBP. Upon reflection, the 6th book isn't about Harry at all. It's about Severus Snape and Voldemort life story. Having it be about Snape is VERY intriguing to me. I think there's more to Snape than we know of thus far. He's a horrible person, yes. Very awful in fact. But still... I still question his loyalties. Even when Harry was running after Snape throwing spells at him, he still was giving harry lessons, which I thought was very odd- telling him to learn to master himself so that he can close his mind and do nonverbal spells. I think Jo is tricking us in a way. Lupin is on the right track- Harry has inherited his prejduice against Snape from Sirius and James. And in a way, we too have inherited this same prejudice because we see/read the story through Harry's eyes.

Spoiler Warning!

Snape didn't really have much of a choice to have done what he did. Just sit for a sec and think about what options he had. Not many. DD was dying anyway. If he would've stood up and attempted to help DD. He and DD would've been killed and who knows what would've happened to Draco. He might be in danger for not following through w/Voldy's orders. I mean, if breaking the Unbreakable Vow didn't kill Snape, the half dozen DE around him would've. And that's just one of many bad options. I still have trouble thinking that he would've willingly killed DD. Why would he WANT to kill someone who had shown hinm any kindness, protected him from going to Azkaban, and had given him a pretty good job and treated him like an equal for a change? It just doesn't add up to me. Everyone may very well differ in their opinions on the matter. Which is good. Opinions rock! But that's just mine :)

Anywho... for the sake of my editorial. I was glad to learn that Lily and Snape had potions together and were part of the Slug Club. I can see him grudgingly in awe of her abilities that match his own- like an equal. Respecting her abilities.

First, I want to say that this is one of those amazing articles that comes along once in a blue moon. Everything fits, and I am officially converted into believing that Snape loved Lily.

I was thinking about it, and I thought about something else. What if the reason for Snape turning into a good guy was Lily's death at the hands of his master? In Ootp, Snape says that he has been teaching at Hogwarts for 14 years (American version, page 363). I'm assuming that Dumbledore wouldn't hire Snape unless he knew he could trust him, so this means that Snape turned good when Harry was an one-year-old. Which is right about the time when Voldemort killed his parents.

Sorry if anyone else had posted this theory before me, I didn't go through all the posts.

Oh, I totally agree! Jo said that Lily wouldn't have died if she had just let Voldemort get Harry... maybe Voldemort was going to spare her for Snape? I don't know, I'm not good at articulating my thoughts, but yes. I definitely agree with that post.

I’ve read the editorial after I came up with same idea (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=2724193&postcount=273)


But I felt I do not have enough evidence to ague the point. It’s great some one else thinks along the same lines
Originally Posted by NwYrkGrrl
Ok here's kind of a sick twist on your theory. We know that Snape heard the Prophesy. We know that he was the DE who advised Voldemort. What if the reason LV gave Lily a choice is because Snape asked LV to? "Please, my lord, kill the father and child but leave the mother to me?" That is why Lily had a choice. I think I'll write an article about it. I must find more canon. If anyone can locate canon to support this theory and wants to jump in on writing an article with me. Email me.

Anybody interested?

Hmm Anabel Lee, that is definatelly an interesting quote. If someone can do something with it, and find enough canon, that would be a pretty interesting read. The one problem with it though is that we know that Voldemort does whatever he wants to do and very rarely (if ever) does a nice deed for another being. I feel that Voldemort giving Lily the choice has to do with some deep, internal thingamabob within himself. Like something that has to do with what he thinks of a mother. Or maybe how his mother didn't have a choice, he thinks. Maybe somewhere inside he feels that he, at least should offer. (Not that he'd feel bad for killing Lily anyway. But whatever.)

Well, the only evidence can be found in "Spinner's end"...

Spoiler Warning!!!


I really don't think that Voldy spared Lily for Snape. He is a psycho! This is proven in canon over and over in HBP. If you read the editorial here on muggle net, unfortunately I cannot locate it was a psychological analysis of Voldy that was right on, and was illustrated perfectly by DD to Harry in HBP. So I really don't think Voldy cares about any one DD always draws us back to that he was never loved by any one. But we do know that Snape was loved by one person. I suspect it is his mother! There is a strong theme on parents.
Secondly, I have alot of trouble with Snape having an once of good in him after killing DD. I think he is a slythering through and through, only out for himself. Think of the story of Benedict Arnold!

A slythering...? *Tries to picture Snape crawling about on the ground* No, no, that sounds a tad bit more like our good friend Peter, but he was in gryffindor, wasn't he?
*Coughs* At any rate... Opinions, opinions, opinions... Here's an interesting bit, though it isn't an exact quote, since I lent my book to a friend so that she can be as shocked as I was. (Aren't I such a caring comrade?) At any rate: Harry makes a comment, near the end when everyone is discussing what Snape ended up doing. Something about Severus hating his mother, since he had called her a filthy name. Well. How often has Harry been right when it comes to this sort of statement...? (Wait. That wasn't actually an opinion, was it? Ah well...)

:rotfl: OMG I LOVE THIS EDITORIAL!! HOLY SHOBOLY!! I seriously (no lie) felt (while reading this) that it was me talking. I always say the exact same thing when im trying to convince some thick-headed :upset: people that THERE is a posibility (a small posibility but a posibility non the less) that snape indeed did like/love her or maybe they both liked each other. Cause remember in the interview w/ jk (by e/m..lol) she says someone did LOVE snape. And no i dont think it could have been a relative. And i do believe snape's redemption (that he told dumby) was that he felt bad about lily having to die because of what he told voldy :sad: . So Rock on rachel for writting down what most of us just spent countless hours, and alot of asprin, on saying. :tu: :tu: Well g2g. BYYe :p



-HugSnape

p.s.s.s
Look out 4 me in chat rooms. Im the one thats always talking about snape.
:eyebrows: :p :blush:

The more I think about it, the more the Lily/Snape thing fits. Snape hates Harry because of James, yet he wants to protect him because of Lily.

Maybe that's why he's wanted to expell Harry all along, he's too confused by Harry, the spitting image of his archenemy with Lily's eyes. He can't bear to see him-- probably why he's so eager to try and expel Harry every chance he gets

This was a great editorial. All of ur reasons for the Snape/Lily relationship were well thought out and explained well. I personally like the part about Harry's eyes being Lily's so whenever Snape looks at Harry in the eyes he thinks of his past love.
:rave: I'm new here also! This is only my second post so if anyone can tell me how to make a quote I would greatly appreciate it,thanks!

Normally, I'm really against Snape Loves Lily theories, but that one editorial actually made some great points. And it WAS unbiased. I always feel like it's a lot of the Snape fan girls who pushed it, but that wasn't the case at all this time. Points definitely taken!

[QUOTE=Anabel_Lee]I’ve read the editorial after I came up with same idea (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=2724193&postcount=273)


I think it may be.....Snape's acts influenced mainly by his hatred...but of course, i'd like it to be wrong

Then, i'm absolutely sure that Snape was(and still is) deeply in love with Lily, but hid those feelings properly from everyone except Dumbledore. You see, Snape has never been self-confident(poor thing! he's definitely so smart and talented) and hated himself pretty much so i think he never dared to consider himself deserving of such a princess. Which doesn't mean that his love has ever become less strong.

Love is the only thing Dumbledore believed in!

Now...somebody said that Snape hated Sirius so madly because of that stupid werewolf-accident. But wait, in PoA, Snape is nearly going insane, he seems to be capable of murdering the man, he talks about some revenge....Really, hasn't it occured to you that Sirius was supposed to be a dangerous mass-murderer and, what's most important, traitor of the Potters! Don't forget, that even Dumbledore was sure that Sirius was their secret-keeper and so did Snape.

So, how can you blame Snape for anger and vengefulness towards Sirius Black?

These were my thoughts about the things I consider to be as clear as common facts.

Howerver, I'd like to lay out a theory which I began to think about reading HBP and re-reading PoA: In HBP we are told that apparently Snape was the one who told LV about the prophecy(well, at least a part of it).
After that, LV decided that the Potters fulfil the conditions of the prophecy the best and started hunting them. Which is kind of strange, because Lily might have not been even pregnant yet, not to mention "escaping from LV thrice". Well, it doesn't matter, Snape was terrified. He went to Dumbledore and they decided that Snape must spy on LV.
In PoA Fudge tells Madam Rosmerta that Dumbledore had a trustworthy spy, who warned him of LV wanting to kill the Potters. That time Dumbledore started to trust Severus Snape. And that time James Potter refused any help from Dumbledore and decided to make Pettigrew the secret-keeper of his family INSTEAD of Dumbledore. Which is just weird in my opinion.
James was an idiot.
Now, my theory:
I'm quite sure, that "the trustworthy spy" was Snape.
I think that when LV found out that the Potters were hiding at Godric's Hollow, Snape requested that they should leave their place of hiding at once.
Perhaps he told Dumbledore first, but it's clear to me that at least James understood that the information had come from Severus Snape. Maybe Lily didn't even know. Perhaps he went to GH himself and told them that LV is coming. The last would be kind of a bravest thing of course.
And now... tara-ra-ta-ta-ta-ta James didn't trust him. He was too arrogant to believe that his "friend" (Peter in James's opinion, Sirius in Snape's opinion) has betrayed him. He in principle killed himself and murdered his wife.

Try to imagine you were Snape now...You have told that prat that LV knows about his(and his wife's) whereabouts and is coming to kill his family now. You were perhaps pleading with the self-confident jerk to leave the place.
It didn't matter at all.
Are you feeling pain? Inhuman pain? Wanting to die?
YES.

I'm not sure about the theory at all, i'm not saying it's true, i'm not even convinced that Snape is good, though I madly want him to be...
Well, it wouldn't be too bad if he was just in love with Lily and his acts and decisions were influenced by hatred, either.
And then, I still hope that Snape is the real hero of these books.

By the way, remember that love is the only thing Dumbledore believed in!

I'm sorry if it was too long and I hope you will forgive me my bad english

Very well thought out!
I had a thought after reading your shipper...Please stick with me on this to the end I am trying to add weight to your theory.

Why was it, and I know it has been asked before, that Voldemort gave Lily the chance to walk away, when as far as we know he had never done this before? The only reason I would believe he would have was as a favor (or even worse) or debt to Severus for informing them of where James and Lily were hiding. It is my belief and JKR's that Voldemort had others with him at Harry's on the night of James and Lily's death, I also believe that wormtail AND SNAPE were with Voldemort that evening.
This is what I have deducted and trust me I hope I am wrong. Snape was with Voldemort and Wormtail, if James and Lily stopped Voldemort 3 times before, Voldemort would want his best with him to make sure the job was done right, i.e. Snape and Wormtail (yes, Wormtail too.) After watching or worse yet-helping Voldemort Kill James(far-fetched I know), Snape expressed, however cooly, to Voldemort his wish that Lily be at least given the chance to let Lily live. When she did not leave and Voldemort Killed her Snape was hurt, crushed, devastated, etc.
Sorry about the round about method of getting to the point. I just can't help but think of all the Time Severus and Lily must have spent in Slughorn's Advanced Potion Making class, both of them being gifted at potions and invited to Slug's parties, however trivial to Lily meant something to Severus.

Just my 48 cents worth! Again I think your really close to home!

Very well thought out!
I had a thought after reading your shipper...Please stick with me on this to the end I am trying to add weight to your theory.

Why was it, and I know it has been asked before, that Voldemort gave Lily the chance to walk away, when as far as we know he had never done this before? The only reason I would believe he would have was as a favor (or even worse) or debt to Severus for informing them of where James and Lily were hiding. It is my belief and JKR's that Voldemort had others with him at Harry's on the night of James and Lily's death, I also believe that wormtail AND SNAPE were with Voldemort that evening.
This is what I have deducted and trust me I hope I am wrong. Snape was with Voldemort and Wormtail, if James and Lily stopped Voldemort 3 times before, Voldemort would want his best with him to make sure the job was done right, i.e. Snape and Wormtail (yes, Wormtail too.) After watching or worse yet-helping Voldemort Kill James(far-fetched I know), Snape expressed, however cooly, to Voldemort his wish that Lily be at least given the chance to let Lily live. When she did not leave and Voldemort Killed her Snape was hurt, crushed, devastated, etc.
Sorry about the round about method of getting to the point. I just can't help but think of all the Time Severus and Lily must have spent in Slughorn's Advanced Potion Making class, both of them being gifted at potions and invited to Slug's parties, however trivial to Lily meant something to Severus.

Just my 48 cents worth! Again I think your really close to home!

The theory about Voldemort and Lily is discussed in this area:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=2861858#post2861858
(the password is: HBP)

I just posted something about that exact same thing earlier as to why I believe Voldemort gave Lily a choice to live. It has to do with his feelings about his own mother. Go to the above link to read more of what I wrote. I too believe that Snape was with Voldmeort at Godric's Hollow. However, I do not believe he was there willingly. Remember at that time, he was a duel spy (he had turned a year before the scene at Godric's Hollow). I don't think he would want to see Lily die. I think Voldemort, maybe thinking it would be a real treat, invited Snape along because he was the one who gave him the word on the prophecy. You know.. a real honor.

Now knowing taht Snape and Lily had potions together (and maybe he too was in the Slug Club) makes me think that he was probably in awe of her abilities and had rerspected her.

In a strange coincidence, I just had this discussion with a co-worker last week and we came to the same conclusion as this editorial. It explains so much. Harry is everything that Snape loves and hates. I believe that Snape, when it comes down to it, will forget about his hatred for James and remember his love for Lily and thus help Harry bring down Voldemort.
Of course, I am one of those people holding a torch for Snape and in my mind there is no doubt that both he and Draco Malfoy will end up on the side of the Order in the end.

In a strange coincidence, I just had this discussion with a co-worker last week and we came to the same conclusion as this editorial. It explains so much. Harry is everything that Snape loves and hates. I believe that Snape, when it comes down to it, will forget about his hatred for James and remember his love for Lily and thus help Harry bring down Voldemort.
Of course, I am one of those people holding a torch for Snape and in my mind there is no doubt that both he and Draco Malfoy will end up on the side of the Order in the end.

I'm one of those people that still believes that Snape is on the good side too. I read very thoroughly. (I guess you can say that I have to spot things for the type of work I do and am planning to do- photography and forensic science- I have to analyze every little thing without bias. It's in my job description :) ) I believe he and Draco will both end up on the good side as well. However, as I stated in my Lily/Snape essay- I do not believe that either Draco or Snape are good people. They have flaws. Very bad ones at that. But just because someone is a bad person, it doesn't mean they can't do the right thing. I seriously think Jo is tricking us (with the plot of the HBP) on where we lie in regards to Snape. I wrote an ediorial about Snape being on the 'good' side with evoidence from ALL of the books thus far but Mugglenet didn't accept it. LOL

Might be because there are quite a few 'Snape is good' essays floating about. Wait two years and try again :) As for the whole Snape + Lily + Voldemort thing.... (And I know this is at least partially being discussed elsewhere...) Well... I just have this to add. Voldemort reeeaally doesn't seem like the kind of person who rewards his followers. (So it would be unlikely for him to reward Snape by sparing Lily...) Except then I stopped to think about it a bit more. Yes, Voldy (Hey. it takes less time to type.) seems the type just to threaten his followers until they do what they want (as we see on several occaisions after he regains his body...) but would people ever really follow him if he never offered them anything else in return? (Y'know... aside from living.) The question becomes, "Is there any evidence of followers of LV being rewarded?" (Death Eaters in particular...) Well... Lucius Malfoy's rich, but he also has a family mannor, so he probably inherited it. Many of LV's more avid supporters ended up in azkaban, so you don't really know if they were rewarded, either. (Though if someone wanted to pour throught the books looking that sort of thing up... be my guest.) Then there are those death eaters who found comfortable jobs in the Ministry of Magic. (Such as Buckbeak's potential executioner......) Though I don't knoew whether or not they have (Or I guess I SHOULD say had, for the most part) those jobs because of LV. The only person we physically see LV rewarding is Peter, to whom he gives a replacement silver hand. If he only ever offered pentalties to his followers, he probably would have just let Wormtail bleed to death. (After all, Petegrew wasn't particularly loyal... he found LV because it was that, or face the consequences of being exposed as the reason the Potters are dead.) Then he sends Peter out of the way, to live with Snape. (Which is probably a treat for neither of them...) All the same... it IS evidence that Voldy is capable of rewarding his (subjects?) even if slightly... oddly. So it is vaguely possible that Voldemort gave Lily the option of staying alive both for the reason you (ITF http://www.cosforums.com/showthread...858#post2861858 ) gave, as well as for Snape. (Mostly, I just like the second reason because it adds an interesting dimension to things: if Snape was part of the reason Lily was given a choice to live, then he is also part of the reason Harry was the Boy Who Lived, (Yet another reason to pause at his name while reading the class list...) where as Harry being born when he was is the reason Lily gets killed (meaning Snape dislikes Harry further...) and Snape is the reason Voldy knows about the prophecy (Harry's opinion of this particular fact is in HBP.....) Bah. Have I gone around in circles, yet?
Conclusion? Voldemort IS capable of rewarding (as well as punishing...) his followers, therefore he may have given Lily the option of living at least partially because of Snape.

[QUOTE=Anabel_Lee]I’ve read the editorial after I came up with same idea (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=2724193&postcount=273)


I think it may be.....Snape's acts influenced mainly by his hatred...but of course, i'd like it to be wrong

Then, i'm absolutely sure that Snape was(and still is) deeply in love with Lily, but hid those feelings properly from everyone except Dumbledore. You see, Snape has never been self-confident(poor thing! he's definitely so smart and talented) and hated himself pretty much so i think he never dared to consider himself deserving of such a princess. Which doesn't mean that his love has ever become less strong.

Love is the only thing Dumbledore believed in!

Now...somebody said that Snape hated Sirius so madly because of that stupid werewolf-accident. But wait, in PoA, Snape is nearly going insane, he seems to be capable of murdering the man, he talks about some revenge....Really, hasn't it occured to you that Sirius was supposed to be a dangerous mass-murderer and, what's most important, traitor of the Potters! Don't forget, that even Dumbledore was sure that Sirius was their secret-keeper and so did Snape.

So, how can you blame Snape for anger and vengefulness towards Sirius Black?

These were my thoughts about the things I consider to be as clear as common facts.

Howerver, I'd like to lay out a theory which I began to think about reading HBP and re-reading PoA: In HBP we are told that apparently Snape was the one who told LV about the prophecy(well, at least a part of it).
After that, LV decided that the Potters fulfil the conditions of the prophecy the best and started hunting them. Which is kind of strange, because Lily might have not been even pregnant yet, not to mention "escaping from LV thrice". Well, it doesn't matter, Snape was terrified. He went to Dumbledore and they decided that Snape must spy on LV.
In PoA Fudge tells Madam Rosmerta that Dumbledore had a trustworthy spy, who warned him of LV wanting to kill the Potters. That time Dumbledore started to trust Severus Snape. And that time James Potter refused any help from Dumbledore and decided to make Pettigrew the secret-keeper of his family INSTEAD of Dumbledore. Which is just weird in my opinion.
James was an idiot.
Now, my theory:
I'm quite sure, that "the trustworthy spy" was Snape.
I think that when LV found out that the Potters were hiding at Godric's Hollow, Snape requested that they should leave their place of hiding at once.
Perhaps he told Dumbledore first, but it's clear to me that at least James understood that the information had come from Severus Snape. Maybe Lily didn't even know. Perhaps he went to GH himself and told them that LV is coming. The last would be kind of a bravest thing of course.
And now... tara-ra-ta-ta-ta-ta James didn't trust him. He was too arrogant to believe that his "friend" (Peter in James's opinion, Sirius in Snape's opinion) has betrayed him. He in principle killed himself and murdered his wife.

Try to imagine you were Snape now...You have told that prat that LV knows about his(and his wife's) whereabouts and is coming to kill his family now. You were perhaps pleading with the self-confident jerk to leave the place.
It didn't matter at all.
Are you feeling pain? Inhuman pain? Wanting to die?
YES.

I'm not sure about the theory at all, i'm not saying it's true, i'm not even convinced that Snape is good, though I madly want him to be...
Well, it wouldn't be too bad if he was just in love with Lily and his acts and decisions were influenced by hatred, either.
And then, I still hope that Snape is the real hero of these books.

By the way, remember that love is the only thing Dumbledore believed in!

I'm sorry if it was too long and I hope you will forgive me my bad english
I really really agree with this whole post. I mean, ALL of us, at some point or another, have been picked on---but we all get over it and move on--at least in some sense. The fact that Snape could be SO bitter after all these years over childhood abuse is kinda silly to me. It makes MUCH more sense that something terrible happened which was directly linked in Snape's mind to James history of arrogance and abuse toward Snape...that is, while James didn't believe Snape when he told James that somebody had revealed Godric's Hollow, James probably didn't believe Snape because he needed to believe the best about a friend---wheras Snape percieved James inability to trust him as further proof of his arrogance.
Could you imagine risking your neck spying on the greatest Dark Wizard in all history, and having all the information you send over, risking your life to do so, be ignored or worse, laughed at and ridiculed, because you are reputed to be a "weirdo"? :no: I would be pretty bitter myself!!!! :agree:

Then, i'm absolutely sure that Snape was(and still is) deeply in love with Lily, but hid those feelings properly from everyone except Dumbledore.

I have yet to see one line from the boks that indicates this.

You see, Snape has never been self-confident(poor thing! he's definitely so smart and talented) and hated himself pretty much so i think he never dared to consider himself deserving of such a princess. Which doesn't mean that his love has ever become less strong.

Poor thing my desk sitting *ss. He's a nasty, cruel selfish b*stard who knew more about the dark arts in school than many adults. I have yet to see one line of the books showing him as considerate, kind or capable of warmth or love. People need to quit romanticizing him.

Now...somebody said that Snape hated Sirius so madly because of that stupid werewolf-accident. But wait, in PoA, Snape is nearly going insane, he seems to be capable of murdering the man, he talks about some revenge....Really, hasn't it occured to you that Sirius was supposed to be a dangerous mass-murderer and, what's most important, traitor of the Potters! Don't forget, that even Dumbledore was sure that Sirius was their secret-keeper and so did Snape.

How about this- he hated Sirius- and James- because they were arrogant bullies, and Snape was their favorite object of torment and humiliation for seven years? Far more likely, totally in keeping with his personalty and supported by canon.

In HBP we are told that apparently Snape was the one who told LV about the prophecy(well, at least a part of it). After that, LV decided that the Potters fulfil the conditions of the prophecy the best and started hunting them. Which is kind of strange, because Lily might have not been even pregnant yet, not to mention "escaping from LV thrice".

Deductive reasoning rules much of this out. If Voldemort hears the fragment of the prophecy, he will have no idea who it could apply to. He will logically ask himself, "who has defied me, and who expects a child in July". He learns that the Potters and Longbottoms fit the bill. We have been told in canon that he chose Harry (not the Potters, Harry) becuase he is a half-blood like himself and Voldemort sees him as his worst threat because of this. The fact that Lily is his mother is never mentioned as having anyting to do with it.

Well, it doesn't matter, Snape was terrified.

This is a total assumption with no canon to support it.

He went to Dumbledore and they decided that Snape must spy on LV.
In PoA Fudge tells Madam Rosmerta that Dumbledore had a trustworthy spy, who warned him of LV wanting to kill the Potters. That time Dumbledore started to trust Severus Snape. And that time James Potter refused any help from Dumbledore and decided to make Pettigrew the secret-keeper of his family INSTEAD of Dumbledore. Which is just weird in my opinion.

Again, much of this is inaccurate. We have no canon indicating that James refused Dumbledore's help. Also, it was Sirius who persuaded Lily and James to use Peter as SK, so that he could hopefully lure Voldemort away. (See his confession in POA.)

If there was very little time between Voldemort hearing the prophecy piece and attacking- I have a feeling he went after Harry as soon as he heard, found out who was pregnant and made his choice- this would explain Sirius' haste, and Dumbledore's lack of immediate involvement until it was too late. (Also, all of this has nothing to do with Snape loving Lily. Voldemort isn't the type to give a rat's *ss if one of his DE loves someone- in fact, he would see it as weakness.)


James was an idiot.

Excuse you? Head Boy, high marks, gifted magically- all canon. Got proof?

I'm quite sure, that "the trustworthy spy" was Snape.

We know that, now.

I think that when LV found out that the Potters were hiding at Godric's Hollow, Snape requested that they should leave their place of hiding at once.
Perhaps he told Dumbledore first, but it's clear to me that at least James understood that the information had come from Severus Snape.

Based on what? I recall nothing in the books indicating that either Snape warned the Potters to leave Godric's Hollow (or cared), and nothing, in fact, to even indicate that they had been warned to leave at all!

Maybe Lily didn't even know. Perhaps he went to GH himself and told them that LV is coming. The last would be kind of a bravest thing of course.

Total speculation with... yeah.

And now... tara-ra-ta-ta-ta-ta James didn't trust him. He was too arrogant to believe that his "friend" (Peter in James's opinion, Sirius in Snape's opinion) has betrayed him. He in principle killed himself and murdered his wife.

Sorry, no. Sirius persuaded James to change SK's at the last minute, so there is no way Snape would know this. Neither one would give Snape the time of day, much less information.

Try to imagine you were Snape now...You have told that prat that LV knows about his(and his wife's) whereabouts and is coming to kill his family now. You were perhaps pleading with the self-confident jerk to leave the place.

Do you hate James or what? Is this what this theroy is all about? Becuase it's mostly inaccurate.

You're using assumed motives and either invented or inaccurate facts to paint a pretty picture of Snape and a p*ss poor picture of James.

And then, I still hope that Snape is the real hero of these books.

I have a strong feeling that this won't happen. I think the title is a giveaway.

You know, as one of the foremost supporters of the Snape-loved-Lily theory, I'm ashamed of myself for not feeling compelled to read this editorial earlier. I loved it. :tu: :tu: :tu: .
Few comments:
-I loved the argument at the beginning stating how Snape came to close himself off from feeling pain and rejection. I've always believed that myself.
-I hadn't really taken the speech by Lupin at the end of movie 3 as a sort of foreshadowing, but now after reading this, I am certain that scene was some sort of clue toward Lily and her connection with Snape.
-I wish she could write another editorial post HBP. That certainly would add more fuel to her argument.
-..."Harry is a hodgepodge of everything Snape loved and hated all wrapped up in one. Harry is the walking, talking evidence of James and Lily's love for one another. Love that Severus Snape could not, did not, and will never have". Could this quote be any more accurate. This basically sums up the ultimate conflict and complexity of Severus Snape, indeed.

Holy bejeebus...of all the rudeness. Sheesh. It's just a book, people.

I love Snape, and I love the idea of this editorial. I think your theory is correct. It makes sence.

Great editorial!! But we now know one thing - Snape WAS loved, and as JKR says, this makes him more culpable. My guess is it was his mother. But then this doesn't contradict your article but rather supports it - he sees love as a weakness because he saw how his mother loved his father and how this meant she would take his ****.

I definitely agree that Snape was in love. I was just at www.jkrowling.com and reading the gossips about Luna Lovegood being Snape's daughter. JKR replied that no, Snape does not have a daughter. It's OK but doesn't that mean that he might have a son?

Great editorial. I support Snape-->Lily 100%. I post frequently in the The All-Purpose, All-Inclusive, No-Holes Dreaded Snape/Lily Theory (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=64595)

It's funny, reading through here there are lots of people who have said 'I had just come to this conclusion myself' or 'I was just having a chat about this the other day', I am in exactly the same boat!! I whole heartedly agree with this theory (and it's no often that I say that!!). There's canon evidence abounding about Snape's underdeveloped feelings. All we ever see from him is loathing and hatred (apart from his interaction with DD - opinions still out on his last interaction with him) and his desire to stop other people being happy. He seems to go out of his way to stop Harry and Ginny spending happy time together and tries to make kids as miserable as possible in his classes. There is a reason for this horrendous attitude towards life, and the 'Snape loves Lily' theory does explain it rather nicely.

Great editorial! I read it ages ago, and totally agreed, but now, after reading it post-HBP, it makes even more sense!

Snape's relationship with Harry has always seemed quite... compex, on Snape's part. For example, Snape hates Harry the moment he sets eyes on him, at the banquet at the start of term in the first book. He is eager to humiliate him because he feels as though by doing this he is getting revenge on James. But physical appearance aside, Harry is very unlike James in several respects. Snape took pleasure in seeing how little Harry knew about potion ingredients, but I've always thought that Snape may have been under the impression that Harry had always known he was a wizard, and then assumed that he was lazy, or stupid.

Snape's image of Harry as a reincarnation of James has always fuelled his hatred for him. Usually, when insulting Harry, Snape seems to draw comparisons to his father because he simply can't think of anything else that he could complain about. Harry is talented, not arrogant (though in HBP Harry did take pride in showing up Snape in DADA). Harry cares about others, especially the marginalized among his peers, in spite of being popular and famous. Snape's refusal to see any aspect of Lily in Harry definitely seems to stem from somewhere.

If Snape was indeed in love with her, then Harry would represent everything Snape hates - the fact that James won, that Lily loved him, and that she died for Harry. If Snape had requested that she be allowed to live, it was Lily who completely rebelled against it, by begging to die instead of Harry. Maybe it was Snape she was appealing to when she said "Not Harry", as Voldemort would have no compassion for a baby who might eventually lead to his downfall.

Oh, and another thing. I was reading "The Cave" chapter in HBP, and I came across some interesting quotes, that I felt could be attributed to a certain character. This may be way off, but...

It's when Dumbledore is drinking from the goblet, and he begins to yell out, in extraordinary emotional pain,

"I don't want... don't make me..."

"No... I don't want to... I don't want to... let me go..."

"Make it stop, make it stop"

"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..."

"No, no, no... no... I can't... I can't... don't make me, I don't want to..."

"It's all my fault, all my fault... please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and I'll never, never again..."

"Please, please, please, no... not that, not that, I'll do anything..."

"No more, please, no more"

I thought, when I read these first, that the wording seemed oddly familiar. Then I remembered - Harry's recollection of his mother's death due to the dementors in PoA. On reading Dumbledore's potion-induced babblings I realised that there may be a link.

After this scene, when Dumbledore and Harry return to Hogsmeade, Dumbledore is intent on finding Snape, and only Snape. Is it possible that he saw Snape's mind, Snape, the man who within an hour would kill him? Dumbledore's mutterings were also similar to those of a victim of legilimency - reminding me once more of Snape.

The above quotes are full of pain, desperation, and most of all, regret. If Snape was present at Godric's Hollow on that fateful Halloween night, it is likely that there's a link to that in Dumbledore's maddened speech. Perhaps he realised, due to Lily's fervent attempts at protecting Harry, the wrong he was doing, but at that stage of course it was too late.

Could the "Don't hurt them" be a reference to Lily and her son, and not to James, who is already dead?

Dumbledore felt that he had Snape's trust because Snape deeply regretted killing Lily and James Potter. But there is nothing in the canon to signify any regret at the death of James Potter, as he takes particular pleasure in insulting him in front of his son. But Snape did feel immense, heart-wrenching regret for Lily's death, and this may have been enough for Dumbledore to take him in on his side.

But, debatable as the reasons are, Snape did kill Dumbledore. Possibly, his only real loyalty lies with Lily, who is long since dead, and he is torn between his feelings for her, and her son, whom he despises. If this is the case, he is on no apparent "side," like many of the other characters. Voldemort killed Lily, maybe in front of Snape, and if there is anything clear about Snape's character, it is that he is definitely one to hold a grudge. Also, Lily died because she loved Harry more than life itself, and Snape must know that. For this, Snape cannot have any real loyalty to Voldemort, but being a "fabulous occlumense" the Dark Lord may never find out.

Snape, in spite of what he preaches, is ruled by his emotions. Think of that scene in the shrieking shack, when he is willing to destroy Sirius, refusing to listen to his story, because of his own bitterness towards the man. Harry is very unlike Snape in this way, because although he had as much a vendetta against Sirius at the time, he was willing to listen, to play fair, to supress his emotions in a way Snape can't.

Snape cannot look at Harry objectively because he is overpowered by the emotions he once felt towards James, and James towards him. Even when Snape realises, through his relentless nosing into Harry's mind, that Harry's childhood was not unlike his own, Snape does not allow for sympathy on his part, and grows furious when he sees, in one of the memories, Harry staring longingly at his mother in the mirror of Erised.

Another clue:

In "Snape's Worst Memory," James says something that could be quite relevant to the Snape/Harry relationship, and might provide some concrete reason to why Snape has always treated Harry so awfully.

Harry is, as your editorial brilliantly put it, a mixture of everything Snape hates and loves, a mixture of two of the most powerful emotions, something he therefore must fear. He hates him because he is the product of a loving relationship between the woman he loved and the man he despised. When Lily asks James why he persists in being so cruel to Snape, James casually replies,

"Well, it's more the fact that he exists, really."

If Lily were to ask Snape the same question in relation to his treatment of her son, what answer would she receive?

Exactly.

Great editorial! I read it ages ago, and totally agreed, but now, after reading it post-HBP, it makes even more sense!

Snape's relationship with Harry has always seemed quite... compex, on Snape's part. For example, Snape hates Harry the moment he sets eyes on him, at the banquet at the start of term in the first book. He is eager to humiliate him because he feels as though by doing this he is getting revenge on James. But physical appearance aside, Harry is very unlike James in several respects. Snape took pleasure in seeing how little Harry knew about potion ingredients, but I've always thought that Snape may have been under the impression that Harry had always known he was a wizard, and then assumed that he was lazy, or stupid.

Snape's image of Harry as a reincarnation of James has always fuelled his hatred for him. Usually, when insulting Harry, Snape seems to draw comparisons to his father because he simply can't think of anything else that he could complain about. Harry is talented, not arrogant (though in HBP Harry did take pride in showing up Snape in DADA). Harry cares about others, especially the marginalized among his peers, in spite of being popular and famous. Snape's refusal to see any aspect of Lily in Harry definitely seems to stem from somewhere.

If Snape was indeed in love with her, then Harry would represent everything Snape hates - the fact that James won, that Lily loved him, and that she died for Harry. If Snape had requested that she be allowed to live, it was Lily who completely rebelled against it, by begging to die instead of Harry. Maybe it was Snape she was appealing to when she said "Not Harry", as Voldemort would have no compassion for a baby who might eventually lead to his downfall.

Oh, and another thing. I was reading "The Cave" chapter in HBP, and I came across some interesting quotes, that I felt could be attributed to a certain character. This may be way off, but...

It's when Dumbledore is drinking from the goblet, and he begins to yell out, in extraordinary emotional pain,

"I don't want... don't make me..."

"No... I don't want to... I don't want to... let me go..."

"Make it stop, make it stop"

"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..."

"No, no, no... no... I can't... I can't... don't make me, I don't want to..."

"It's all my fault, all my fault... please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh, please make it stop and I'll never, never again..."

"Please, please, please, no... not that, not that, I'll do anything..."

"No more, please, no more"

I thought, when I read these first, that the wording seemed oddly familiar. Then I remembered - Harry's recollection of his mother's death due to the dementors in PoA. On reading Dumbledore's potion-induced babblings I realised that there may be a link.

After this scene, when Dumbledore and Harry return to Hogsmeade, Dumbledore is intent on finding Snape, and only Snape. Is it possible that he saw Snape's mind, Snape, the man who within an hour would kill him? Dumbledore's mutterings were also similar to those of a victim of legilimency - reminding me once more of Snape.

The above quotes are full of pain, desperation, and most of all, regret. If Snape was present at Godric's Hollow on that fateful Halloween night, it is likely that there's a link to that in Dumbledore's maddened speech. Perhaps he realised, due to Lily's fervent attempts at protecting Harry, the wrong he was doing, but at that stage of course it was too late.

Could the "Don't hurt them" be a reference to Lily and her son, and not to James, who is already dead?

Dumbledore felt that he had Snape's trust because Snape deeply regretted killing Lily and James Potter. But there is nothing in the canon to signify any regret at the death of James Potter, as he takes particular pleasure in insulting him in front of his son. But Snape did feel immense, heart-wrenching regret for Lily's death, and this may have been enough for Dumbledore to take him in on his side.

But, debatable as the reasons are, Snape did kill Dumbledore. Possibly, his only real loyalty lies with Lily, who is long since dead, and he is torn between his feelings for her, and her son, whom he despises. If this is the case, he is on no apparent "side," like many of the other characters. Voldemort killed Lily, maybe in front of Snape, and if there is anything clear about Snape's character, it is that he is definitely one to hold a grudge. Also, Lily died because she loved Harry more than life itself, and Snape must know that. For this, Snape cannot have any real loyalty to Voldemort, but being a "fabulous occlumense" the Dark Lord may never find out.

Snape, in spite of what he preaches, is ruled by his emotions. Think of that scene in the shrieking shack, when he is willing to destroy Sirius, refusing to listen to his story, because of his own bitterness towards the man. Harry is very unlike Snape in this way, because although he had as much a vendetta against Sirius at the time, he was willing to listen, to play fair, to supress his emotions in a way Snape can't.

Snape cannot look at Harry objectively because he is overpowered by the emotions he once felt towards James, and James towards him. Even when Snape realises, through his relentless nosing into Harry's mind, that Harry's childhood was not unlike his own, Snape does not allow for sympathy on his part, and grows furious when he sees, in one of the memories, Harry staring longingly at his mother in the mirror of Erised.

Another clue:

In "Snape's Worst Memory," James says something that could be quite relevant to the Snape/Harry relationship, and might provide some concrete reason to why Snape has always treated Harry so awfully.

Harry is, as your editorial brilliantly put it, a mixture of everything Snape hates and loves, a mixture of two of the most powerful emotions, something he therefore must fear. He hates him because he is the product of a loving relationship between the woman he loved and the man he despised. When Lily asks James why he persists in being so cruel to Snape, James casually replies,

"Well, it's more the fact that he exists, really."

If Lily were to ask Snape the same question in relation to his treatment of her son, what answer would she receive?

Exactly.

Holy cow, RainyCat, that is one of the best interpretations I've read, you ought to write THAT into an editorial! :tu:

I used to laugh at the idea of Snape loving Lily, but this editorial has (kind of) changed my mind. I say 'kind of' because no matter what evidence is put before us, we still hold fast to our olwn opinions. irrelevent but still.............................I think he probably does love her, but I would have been reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaally upset if Lily liked him back!!

I think Snape did love Lily, but hated James. That may show that he feels inclined to protect Harry because he's Lily's son, but loath him because he's the result of James+Lily and because he looks so much like James. Come to think of it, have we ever heard Snape criticize Lily in front of Harry before?

I've always thought that Snape loved Lily and it was an obessive love. I like this article you've written.

Many people can't get over Snape calling Lily the Mudblood. Remember, Snape is surprising. How many times have you called names a person you love? Me-quite frequently in the past, when I was younger and less thinking about the consequences.
Also anagrams are interesting thing:
when you switch letters in "Lily Evans Potter", you achieve "I try t'love Snape". Reading the word "Evans" from the end to the beginning: It will make "Snave", almost "Snape", "V" is 1 unnecessary letter, V like Voldemort.
Reading the word "Snape" from the end to the beginning it makes "Epans". Almost "Evans", "P " is the obstacle. "P" like Potter?
Also take the word "Snivelly" and switch letters. here goes "Sev'n'Lily". Too many examples as for a coincidence. Also "Severus Snape" can make "persues Evans", what means "A chaser of Evans" in one language, I don't remember in which.

I've always thought that Snape loved Lily and it was an obessive love. I like this article you've written.

Many people can't get over Snape calling Lily the Mudblood. Remember, Snape is surprising. How many times have you called names a person you love? Me-quite frequently in the past, when I was younger and less thinking about the consequences.
Also anagrams are interesting thing:
when you switch letters in "Lily Evans Potter", you achieve "I try t'love Snape". Reading the word "Evans" from the end to the beginning: It will make "Snave", almost "Snape", "V" is 1 unnecessary letter, V like Voldemort.
Reading the word "Snape" from the end to the beginning it makes "Epans". Almost "Evans", "P " is the obstacle. "P" like Potter?
Also take the word "Snivelly" and switch letters. here goes "Sev'n'Lily". Too many examples as for a coincidence. Also "Severus Snape" can make "persues Evans", what means "A chaser of Evans" in one language, I don't remember in which.
That's cool! I never realized that!

yeah, Snape was in love. Stalker.

I wonder what would've happened if him and Lily DID get togehter? <chokes and gags>

I've always thought that Snape loved Lily and it was an obessive love. I like this article you've written.

Many people can't get over Snape calling Lily the Mudblood. Remember, Snape is surprising. How many times have you called names a person you love? Me-quite frequently in the past, when I was younger and less thinking about the consequences.
Also anagrams are interesting thing:
when you switch letters in "Lily Evans Potter", you achieve "I try t'love Snape". Reading the word "Evans" from the end to the beginning: It will make "Snave", almost "Snape", "V" is 1 unnecessary letter, V like Voldemort.
Reading the word "Snape" from the end to the beginning it makes "Epans". Almost "Evans", "P " is the obstacle. "P" like Potter?
Also take the word "Snivelly" and switch letters. here goes "Sev'n'Lily". Too many examples as for a coincidence. Also "Severus Snape" can make "persues Evans", what means "A chaser of Evans" in one language, I don't remember in which.

I don't know. I find these pretty unconvincing, especially as there are lots of anagrams floating around, and these aren't even exact. I hardly think that if Rowling were going to reflect some fact in the story in some numerology or wordplay that it would be missing a letter or a digit here and there.

But more to the point is that it seems totally inconsistent with her M.O. to make name linkages the raison d'etre of some critical fact in the story. At most, they might be a cutesy indicator of something that is made inevitable by other, more plot or character driven facts in the story. If Snape loved Lily (I doubt it, but nothing's impossible), or vice versa, it would have to be convincing and plausible within the framework of the story, not some arbitrary link between their names. After all, in the story, they were named independently of each other.

In order to make a convincing case for something that is not immediately evident, you have to first demonstrate that what is immediately evident is not true, after all. Snape's Worst Memory, a prime basis for many of the Snape/Lily shippers, looks for all the world like an ordinary case of humiliation. Neither Lily nor Snape evince any recognition of each other. Sounds more like wishful thinking than anything else--plus, I guess, the rumor that there will be some huge revelation about Lily. Frankly, I can't see a Snape/Lily hook-up as a major revelation. More like an interesting side plot, unless it has some greater significance--it can't *just* be that they hook up.

If Snape loved Lily (I doubt it, but nothing's impossible), or vice versa, it would have to be convincing and plausible within the framework of the story, not some arbitrary link between their names. After all, in the story, they were named independently of each other.
I agree, the anagram may just be a coincidence, but I still support Snape loving Lily. Funny how JKR always seems to walk around it when asked isn't it? Funny how he never mentions Lily, ever. There are so many indirect (and a few direct) connections between the two that are quite hard to ignore. Snape's love for Lily also answers a few unanswered questions in HP.In order to make a convincing case for something that is not immediately evident, you have to first demonstrate that what is immediately evident is not true, after all. Snape's Worst Memory, a prime basis for many of the Snape/Lily shippers, looks for all the world like an ordinary case of humiliation.
No, actually its not. Many people who fully support Snape loving Lily don't consider SWM much evidence whatsoever. Frankly, I can't see a Snape/Lily hook-up as a major revelation.
Ew, no hook up. Many don't think that Lily actually loved Snape, rather the other way around. Snape loving Lily can also be connected with the whole "Lily's eyes are important" thing. What if during some sort of confrentation between Harry and Snape, though blinded by the thought of Harry being an exact replica of his father, he notices that he has his mother's eyes. Lily is a compasionate person, and maybe Snape will someday see that some of Lily's good qualities actually did brush off on Harry.

I agree, the anagram may just be a coincidence, but I still support Snape loving Lily. Funny how JKR always seems to walk around it when asked isn't it?

She walks around a lot of stuff. She's said that she will only stop a line of reasoning when it becomes unprofitable (or words to that effect). That doesn't mean it's right--only that she finds it provocative.

I'm certainly not saying it's wrong--only that I've not seen any convincing evidence of it being right. There are a lot of theories at the level of "well, it's plausible and it fits many of the facts," and as far as I can tell, the majority of them were eventually squashed somewhere in the first six books. Strong attestation for a ship in the text raises it above that level.

Funny how he never mentions Lily, ever. There are so many indirect (and a few direct) connections between the two that are quite hard to ignore. Snape's love for Lily also answers a few unanswered questions in HP.

Or, they might be answered some other way. I'm certainly not saying there's no evidence of any connection between them, just that evidence that he loved her (or vice versa) is unconvincing.

No, actually its not. Many people who fully support Snape loving Lily don't consider SWM much evidence whatsoever.

*shrug* OK, it's your ship. Sure seems to me like a lot of people on that ship mention that scene quite a bit, though.

But fine, I'll stipulate to there being other stuff you base the ship on. What is that other stuff?

Ew, no hook up. Many don't think that Lily actually loved Snape, rather the other way around. Snape loving Lily can also be connected with the whole "Lily's eyes are important" thing. What if during some sort of confrentation between Harry and Snape, though blinded by the thought of Harry being an exact replica of his father, he notices that he has his mother's eyes. Lily is a compasionate person, and maybe Snape will someday see that some of Lily's good qualities actually did brush off on Harry.

What if, what if, what if. Sure, it's plausible, but it's also plausible that Snape simply respected her as someone who didn't run him down all the time. It's the difference between that scenario, and the Snape-loved-Lily scenario, that I don't see as being strongly attested anywhere in the book. Not the difference between no-connection-between-Snape-and-Lily, and Snape-loved-Lily. We do have evidence that she would have respected his rights/privacy as a human being and a fellow student at Hogwarts; it's the next step, to his reciprocating that respect with romantic feeling that (in my opinion) there is only suggestion.

I'd read this article long back and since then I've been convinced that 'Snape loves Lily' theory is true.

Really, u've portrayed Snape exactly like JKR would have done and your theory answers quite a lot of questions. e.g. I'd never understood why that memory was called SWM. Your theory answers it satisfactorily. That is boys' psychology. They come up with weird ways of telling the girl that they care.

Also the part about Harry being everything that Snape loved and hated was brilliant. There are many instances where Snape's eyes bore into Harry's. Maybe he's indeed reminded of Lily. But when he takes in Harry's entire persona, it reminds him of James. Yeah, that really does make sense.

One more thing, Rainycat, your interpretation is fabulous!

I would respond to your post BLT1967, but I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

I would respond to your post BLT1967, but I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough. We'll see in Book Seven. For what it's worth, I do think Snape/Lily has more going for it than Dumbledore Lives. :)

I don't know. I find these pretty unconvincing, especially as there are lots of anagrams floating around, and these aren't even exact. I hardly think that if Rowling were going to reflect some fact in the story in some numerology or wordplay that it would be missing a letter or a digit here and there.
We differ here. Jo is educated enough to use anagrams, numerology and so on. It makes the HP story even more ambitious writing. Anagrams- there are lots of them, of course, I chose these which suit the theory, some may mean nothing.

If Snape loved Lily (I doubt it, but nothing's impossible), or vice versa, it would have to be convincing and plausible within the framework of the story, not some arbitrary link between their names. After all, in the story, they were named independently of each other.
Sure. If you want to know my opinion and proofs for that, go to "Snape and Lily theory in the "History of Magic" section. I'm sorry but I don't want to rewrite the reasons for a 64858 time.

In order to make a convincing case for something that is not immediately evident, you have to first demonstrate that what is immediately evident is not true, after all.
In case you're interested, read the topic I've mentioned above.

Snape's Worst Memory, a prime basis for many of the Snape/Lily shippers, looks for all the world like an ordinary case of humiliation. Neither Lily nor Snape evince any recognition of each other. Sounds more like wishful thinking than anything else--plus, I guess, the rumor that there will be some huge revelation about Lily. Frankly, I can't see a Snape/Lily hook-up as a major revelation. More like an interesting side plot, unless it has some greater significance--it can't *just* be that they hook up.
Nah, it wasn't the first time I supposed that Snape loved Lily. It started in PoA when he got angry at Sirius. You know, he may have been furious and talking about vengeance because he didn't want to see Lily dead. The fact that he never talks about her is signifcant.

I see him as somebody who was defended by her and destroyed all the sympathy. She was the one to show him compassion and offer help. In fact, it's all about the timeline. James Potter was trying to 'play' Snape to win Lily. Did he have any idea that Snape liked her? Maybe.

As I've said, many people look at the "Mudblood" comment, but it doesn't mean anything except that it made the memory even worse.

We differ here.

Yes, obviously. I have no problem with difference of opinion, of course.

But I think we also have a difference of approach, and it might be just my misunderstanding of what the purpose of this forum is. The title of this thread is a question; it is my assumption that the purpose of the thread is to answer that question. In other words, we have a theory--is it true, or isn't it? In order to address that matter objectively, in my opinion, we ought to consider not only what supports the theory, but also what doesn't. A theory doesn't get stronger because we ignore as uncomfortable either evidence against the theory, or concerns about the significance of the evidence in support of it.

From a practical perspective, that means (in my estimation) that in order to determine "the truth" about Snape/Lily, we ought to look at why Snape might not have been in love with her. We ought also to look at whether the evidence we adduce in support of that theory really says what we think it does. It's this second bit that my comment about anagrams is after.

A visit to www.wordsmith.org/anagram/ will reveal, for anyone who cares to try, that phrases--especially long phrases--have an astonishing number of anagrams. Try Severus Snape, for instance. Now, naturally, most of these anagrams are entirely nonsensical, usually not even grammatical. But a small number do make a bit of sense, and if we allow ourselves to drop letters, or change letters, the possibilities increase dramatically.

Suppose, for argument's sake, I wanted to support the theory that Snape was a sadist. I might choose the anagram "Pane serves us." Well, what does that mean? Nothing, until I sneakily point out that "pane," of course, is a homophone for "pain." Et voila. I'm sure you find that unconvincing, but to someone who has invested some time into other evidence that Snape was a sadist (and I'm sure there's some to find here and there), it is the final piece of evidence he needs, unless he is very careful.

But let me emphasize my point: I am not saying that Snape/Lily is wrong. I am saying one piece of evidence in support of it is not as strong as it might seem at first. That is why I say we might have a difference of approach. When I critique a bit of evidence, it is not my intention to waylay the entire theory. I am honestly interested in the matter of Snape/Lily, and I would not be disappointed in any way if it happened to be true. On the other hand, I also would not be disappointed if it weren't. That might account for some difference in our approaches, too.

As you say you have other evidence or arguments in favor of the theory, I'll look at your previous post. Fair enough?

Jo is educated enough to use anagrams, numerology and so on. It makes the HP story even more ambitious writing. Anagrams- there are lots of them, of course, I chose these which suit the theory, some may mean nothing.

It is risky to choose only those which suit the theory. You may ignore evidence that goes against the theory, undermining your ability to find the truth.

I agree she is certainly educated enough--I'm not contesting that. But as a writer, I disagree that it makes the work more ambitious. (No, I cannot give you any kind of credentials like she does--at least not in the field of popular fiction.) First of all, the work is already tremendously ambitious. Seven sizable books, each of them complex in its individual plot and contribution to an overall story line--that is not an undertaking to be approached lightly.

Secondly, anagrams are not difficult. They are fun, as this subthread indicates. We like seeing that two apparently disparate things might be connected, and we like seeing that connection mirrored in this kind of wordplay. But, to steal a line from Rowling, it's about what is easy, and what is right. What is right in novel-reading, and therefore in novel-writing, is plot, characterization, dialogue. They are certainly not easy, as evidenced by the fact that she has improved considerably in all of those things from Book One through Book Six--not always consistently, perhaps, but in the broad sweep of things, certainly so.

Sure. If you want to know my opinion and proofs for that, go to "Snape and Lily theory in the "History of Magic" section. I'm sorry but I don't want to rewrite the reasons for a 64858 time.

I have no intention of asking you to. I'll look it up.

Suppose, for argument's sake, I wanted to support the theory that Snape was a sadist. I might choose the anagram "Pane serves us." Well, what does that mean? Nothing, until I sneakily point out that "pane," of course, is a homophone for "pain." Et voila. I'm sure you find that unconvincing, but to someone who has invested some time into other evidence that Snape was a sadist (and I'm sure there's some to find here and there), it is the final piece of evidence he needs, unless he is very careful.
I wrote that I chose a few anagrams that suit agreement "Snape loved Lily". There may be some of them on the contrary. It can't be a 100% proof. I know it. I put it here as something interesting.

But let me emphasize my point: I am not saying that Snape/Lily is wrong. I am saying one piece of evidence in support of it is not as strong as it might seem at first. That is why I say we might have a difference of approach. When I critique a bit of evidence, it is not my intention to waylay the entire theory. I am honestly interested in the matter of Snape/Lily, and I would not be disappointed in any way if it happened to be true. On the other hand, I also would not be disappointed if it weren't. That might account for some difference in our approaches, too.
It can't be 100% evidence for this. Jo is very protective about her plot and she doesn't reveal too much. I can't say that I'm sure that my opinion is right, I can only hope, pointing out some facts which can be interpreted the way that Snape loved Lily. They can, but they don't have to.


It is risky to choose only those which suit the theory. You may ignore evidence that goes against the theory, undermining your ability to find the truth.
I've always known that Snape behaved in a sadistic way far too often. It doesn't necessarily mean that he can't love.

I agree she is certainly educated enough--I'm not contesting that. But as a writer, I disagree that it makes the work more ambitious.
So we disagree here. Thinking about symbols, science makes the writing in a way 'richer".

Secondly, anagrams are not difficult.
Sure. But used on purpose, they can make the writing 'richer". We'll see if there was more to some of them in the seventh book.

I've always known that Snape behaved in a sadistic way far too often. It doesn't necessarily mean that he can't love.

My intent with that example was not to demonstrate that Snape couldn't love; it was to demonstrate that there are so many potential anagrams that any given one is likely to be spurious (i.e., accidental).

So we disagree here. Thinking about symbols, science makes the writing in a way 'richer".

Putting my scientist hat on for the moment, I have no idea what you mean by "science" in the above sentence.

Putting my scientist hat on for the moment, I have no idea what you mean by "science" in the above sentence.
I'm not a native speaker, so forgive me, it's better to use the word "knowledge". Knowledge of literature with various links to different writing epoques... knowledge how to read tarot cards... and so on. I see influences of romanticism in HBP for instance. I'd say that Snape may occur to lead life similar to Giaour's.

As I know that we are rather from opposite sides, I'm going to do the same as random musing did and I suggest us to leave the argument.

This was awesome. I'm writing a fic with a strange form of Snape/Lily, and this gave me some great ideas to try and make it plausible. Well, thanks for that. You're brave to write on a fic on which we have so little information.

Hello all...

Newbie here who has read both IntoTheWest's phenomenal editorial and ALL of the posts.

I have been a Lily/Snape adherent since 2001. I actually posted comments outlining my theory on another message board in 2001 and was "shot down" repeatedly. Nice to see that there are other supporters.

A couple of points... (Forgive repetition if I am beating a dead horse, but these are reasons why I have been a longtime supporter).

1. Snape's Desire to Give Sirius to the Dementors in PoA---At first glance, this is too extreme a punishment (not only death, but losing your soul). However, if you consider that at the time Snape blamed Sirius for Lily's death, it shows an appropriate level of anger.

2. Beauty and the Beast Archetypes in Literature--- Romantic triangles/"Beauty and the Beast" stories are VERY common and potent themes in stories. Not to say that JKR is NOT brilliant and original, but these triangles are really good ways of creating tension, "past histories", and last but not least, good reading.

If Lily-Snape-James is proven, the triangle will be the next in a long series of stories, some classic, some popular, but all coming from the same place:

Roxanne-Cyrano-Christian, Cathy-Heathcliff-Edgar, Beauty-Beast-"Normal" Life, Clarice-Hannibal Lecter-"Normal Life", Christine-PTO-Raoul, Georgio-Fosca-Clara (Sondheim's PASSION), Mina-Dracula-Harker, Jane-Rochester-"Morality", Jareth-Sara-"Normal Life" (yes....that is a LABYRINTH reference),


I really see a parallel with WUTHERING HEIGHTS in Harry Potter. Granted, I don't want to make Snape into some swoony, Gothic, "puffy shirt" hero, but there is a a good set up for a spurned lover archetype here.

This may sound a little far fetched but I don't think that Snape was just in love with Lily, I think it's possible that they were probably seeing each other. I don't know, I just get this weird vibe that they had something going on. It's kind of hard to imagine Lily dating somebody like Snape but after I read this, I think it's possible that they were.

Before I read this, the Snape/Lily idea kind of crossed my mind, and the refrences to Lily being a wiz at potions and (insert name here, I don't want to get in trouble again for HBP spoilers) being the real owner The Half Blood Prince's potions book really had my brain buzzing a bit. But this editorial confirmed my thoughts in my head, or just summerized them.

I'm currently rereading the Half Blood Prince. The whole 'Snape looking into Harry's eyes and seeing Lily' really does make sense when you read the chapter where Harry is at Slughorns Christmas party and he runs into Snape. When Slughorn comments Harry about him 'being just like his mother Lily' and right there Snape says "Really?" and he starts looking Harry eye to eye but this time I doubt he's trying to read his mind or trying to intimadate Harry. He seeing Lily in Harry's eyes.

I am really getting convinced, like many of you have previously. Just to reiterate, this editorial was so convincing because it was well thought out and based only on canon. And Rainycat, your post really was great. I especially agree on the last part. "it's the fact that he exists." I never noticed the parallel, but you did. Brilliant.
I really didn't take Lily/Snape seriously at all until I re-read both PS/SS and am now re-reading PoA. To think that eleven year old Harry, just having stepped into the wizarding world and now entering Hogwarts, is sitting in the Great Hall with his brand new friends. He looks up, and there at the staff table is a teacher looking at him with pure loathing! Someone who Harry had never met in his recollectable life, along with every other witch or wizard. Obviously, this is something *personal.* Now there are of course two explanations to that, and I am not going to really support one or the other quite yet. The first has to do with Snape being purely devoted to Voldemort. Here is the child who defeated his master, the one who made him feel like a real big shot and the powerful wizard he believes he is. And the other, well, you explained it. It is the fact he is the picture of Lily and James' relationship. I like to think it might be a combination of both, but with the Lily reason the true one deep deep down.

I'm currently rereading the Half Blood Prince. The whole 'Snape looking into Harry's eyes and seeing Lily' really does make sense when you read the chapter where Harry is at Slughorns Christmas party and he runs into Snape. When Slughorn comments Harry about him 'being just like his mother Lily' and right there Snape says "Really?" and he starts looking Harry eye to eye but this time I doubt he's trying to read his mind or trying to intimadate Harry. He seeing Lily in Harry's eyes.
Huh. I read it as more of an eyebrow raise, because as far as Snape knows, Harry sucks at potions, so something must be up. But perhaps you're right.
(Yay, Wuthering Heights parrallels! That's my favorite book! Mind you, very few people believe me when I say that, but hey...)

Very good theory about Snape's love for Lily. Maybe there is a little twist in this theory and what was Petunia involment? Who else has Petunia meet as she knows so much about the wizarding world but never been part of it or has she? "that awful boy" who is she refering to James or Snape and who else dose she know and has meet or been around to the Evans house?

We know that Snape was loved by someone, Petunia maybe?

I'm trolling around for ideas on the Snape/Lily/Petunia link and happened upon this thread that, to my surprise, seems to be active. I loved this Madam Puddifoot editorial.

Originally posted by Youdan:
Very good theory about Snape's love for Lily. Maybe there is a little twist in this theory and what was Petunia involment?


Youdan, I'm in full agreement with your speculation! I hope all of you will come over to the Snape Loved Lily forum and join us (or slap us up side the head and knock some sense into us!) We have possible Petunia tie-in! Just look through the last two pages of postings.

Here is the link http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=81084&page=48 (http://http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=81084&page=1)

Come set us straight!

This discussion is probably closed by now, but that wont stop me, for giveing you all my opinion.

First I want to thank you for writing the article. I have always loved Snape, and thougt he was the greatest character i the books, and I love the thought about him being in love with harry mother.
I thought the article was great. Specialy after reading the 6th book.
Snape has to be in love with Lily, I see that clear now. And it all makes sence.
I also think that this is the reason Dumbledor trusts Snape. Dumbledor knows that Snape has been in love once, and that gives him the power, that Dumbledor loves so much, and Voldemord find ridiculous. There is no other way.

Thanks for the kind words about my article!

Okay I agree with everything this editorial had to say, but I want to add something. Don't forget that Dumbledore has a reason to trust snape, he even feels that snape has remorse for sending voldemort to Lilly and James. Now we still don't know why Dumbledore trusts Snape and for some reason he won't tell Harry (or anyone else for that matter). I'm thinking the reason could be that snape loved Lilly. Excellent editorial.

I loved this editorial. It's like if someone had read my mind! And, Enchantedgurls, I totally agree with you. It's pure logic. Dumbledore said Snape's remorse was true, but Lupin (and all of us at this time of the books) knew it was impossible for Snape to be sorry for James. The only option is that his remorse was caused by causing the death of the other person who died that night: Lily. I wonder why nobody in the books (for instance, Lupin, who knew well all them, and, I think, was also a little in love with her) has realized yet.

The only option is that his remorse was caused by causing the death of the other person who died that night: Lily. I wonder why nobody in the books (for instance, Lupin, who knew well all them, and, I think, was also a little in love with her) has realized yet.

I was considering the same thing. JKR mentioned that the next time that Harry meets Snape, it will be very interesting indeed. I wonder if Snape's temper will get the better of him and he'll let something slip... possibly about Lily? (I'm a firm believer that Snape is still on the good side.) Maybe we'll find out the reasons behind his actions and its very possible that it'll have to do with Lily. He hated James with a high passion there's no other reason for him to be remorseful if its not for Lily.


I think the only reason that no one in the books (other than Dumbledore and possibly Lily) knows about Snape's true intent/feelings is because of how secluded and secretive he is. He's a very hard character to read. We only have his actions to go by because, god forbid, if he says anything out loud .
:D

I honestly loved reading this editorial..

And it's also odd how that memory of him and Lily
with James is, in his opinion, his 'worst memory'.

Why else would it be his worst memory? He made a huge
mistake by calling the girl he longed for the most horrible
name imaginable in the Wizarding World..

After reading this, there's no way someone can not see
that Snape longed for Lily.

Thank you. Excellent. I am not into shipping at all. But the Snape - Lily thing makes a lot of sense to me. "Snape's worst memory" is the only time we see Lily in all 6 books. And this stands out for me. I have a lot to say but it's swimming around, got to articulate later.

Well done, logical and sound arguments - as much as love can be.

Great essay.:clap:

I just love this editorial!!

It makes a lot of sense, even though I tend to think that Snape's worst memory was seeing James use his own spells against him... look at how strongly he reacted to Harry when he did the same thing in HBP, this is why I think that that was the case in his worst memory.

I'm not saying that he wasn't infatuated with her though... it could have happened.

aww i love this editorial!! i thought the explnation of why snape hated harry was because of what he loved and hated combined was such a good thery. Nice ending good job!

I just love this editorial!!

It makes a lot of sense, even though I tend to think that Snape's worst memory was seeing James use his own spells against him... look at how strongly he reacted to Harry when he did the same thing in HBP, this is why I think that that was the case in his worst memory.

I'm not saying that he wasn't infatuated with her though... it could have happened.

Thanks for loving my editorial!!! :D

I do agree with you that Snape was probably angry, in the Pensieve scene because James was using one of Snape's spells against him. As for Harry though, in the HBP, I got the impression that Snape became angry (by and large) because Harry called him a coward. (Although, I'm sure he was a little miffed at Harry trying to use one of his own spell creations. But he could've lashed out at him waaaay before when Harry used Snape's Septumsempra on Draco.)

You certainly have given a spotlight to sort of hidden evidence, a look behind the scenes kind of thing. I personally am a big fan of Snape/Lily...it does make a lot of sense to me and even answers many questions! And with the enterance of the recent char. Slughorn - who knows when he might slip a bit of info on Snape/Lily! Also I think Petunia knows something about Snape/Lily. I think Snape/Lily were friends however Snape wanted to be more than friends and Lily wanted a platonic relationship....

Anyways I loved the Editorial, it is convincing, and it makes Snape/Lily rather a more understanding theory rather than disgusting and far fetched as people seem to think of it as. Great work :D

Has anyone read any fan fiction that follows this thread? I mean specifically the idea that Snape was in love (but in unrequited love) with Lily? I was thinking of writing some fanfic along those lines myself but wanted to make sure no one else has done it first. --Ken

Surely you jest...I am confident there are piles of such fics out there.

But you shouldn't let that stop you, because there are many ways to tell the story. Proponents of the theory can't even agree when it happened, let alone a host of other details. For example, I wrote a fic called Unintended Consequences, link below, which is a story about young Death Eater Snape which incorporates the theory. But Ive read fics where Snape loves her and she gets mad at him after he calls her a Mudblood, and I am working on another one set in his sixth year which will include Snape being in love with Lily, be her merely seeing him as a study partner as a subplot (it is mostly about the 'prank').

That was a very good editorial! Very clear, well thought out and made a lot of sense. You really got down into snape's feelings, which was very eye opening. I don't like the idea of them together, but It explains a lot, and would work well.

I thought perhaps as old as this editorial is, it may not still be active, but it is so in line with my feelings about Snape and Lilly that I had to make a comment. IntoTheForest did a great job analysing and finding examples that support her theory. I'm a big Snape fan and very much in the "good Snape" camp. I truly feel that Snape's love for Lilly will have a big role to play in book 7.

I agree with you ClayPotter. I don't think though that Lily likes him at all. I think that she liked him as a friend and only felt sory for him.

Thank you all for your kind words!

I would, however, like to express that in my editorial I DO NOT believe that it was a mutual love between Lily and Snape- it was one-sided, on Snape's part only, like a mixture of fascination and possible obsession with her. (Not nearly as scary though as the obsessive love between Voldemort's parents. I cringe at the thought of forced love!!!) As little as we know of Lily, we know that she was strong spirited, intelligent and feisty. Although she could see good qualities in all she met, I doubt that Snape had enough to hold her attention romatically. Now James on the other hand..... ;)

(I just wanted to clear that up in case there was any confusion after reading my editorial.)

I agree- and so may Jo, apparently. I'm interested to find out what her 'no comment' on Snape regarding 'romantic feelings' for Lily meant.

I'm not sure if it isn't a bit far fetched, I think most of Snape's action are explainable without a love story. But it's such a cute idea, I would love to see Snape caring for someone! I really enjoyed the article. And I wonder a lot what happenings have broken the heart of poor Severus. :upset:

I've been a fan of this theory for a while now (many many thread versions ago...) but I haven't been around here in a while. I just read Madam Puddifoot's article; Severus Snape in Love? by Rachel LaBozetta; and it pretty much states everything I have said and theorized on. It was a great read! I'd just like to note though, while I am a follower of this theory it's not because I'm a Snape / Lily "shipper" but it's because of all the evidence pointing to the possibility.

Funny thing, the other day I was discussing book 7 with my mother who is a reader of the books, but has only ever read them once each. She's not into theorizing or discussing like us here on COS. While we were talking about book 7 she asked me if I thought Snape was still on the "good side". I then went into my theory of why I believed he was, and I brought up the theory of Snape having a thing for Lily. I was surprised when my mother nodded her head and in stead of questioning the love theory she says, "Well, yeah, that's obvious." I thought it was amusing coming from someone who does not theories and discuss Harry Potter, and who has only read each book once....when they first came out.

This discussion is probably closed by now, but that wont stop me, for giveing you all my opinion.

First I want to thank you for writing the article. I have always loved Snape, and thougt he was the greatest character i the books, and I love the thought about him being in love with harry mother.
I thought the article was great. Specialy after reading the 6th book.
Snape has to be in love with Lily, I see that clear now. And it all makes sence.
I also think that this is the reason Dumbledor trusts Snape. Dumbledor knows that Snape has been in love once, and that gives him the power, that Dumbledor loves so much, and Voldemord find ridiculous. There is no other way.\


again, great editorial.

this is an interesting thought-snape can love! will this play into deathly hallows?

if you read the part of OOTP with harry being in snape's memory, we read that harry follows closely behind his dad "straining his ears" to hear their converstaion. snape and james are seperated by A GROUP OF GIRLS. james and his friends go and sit under the tree by the lakes edge. the group of girls that left the Great Hall right behind them also find seats at the lakes edge and are just kind of hanging out. Harry gets a little anxious because he thinks snape is going to take off in another direction ...but HE DOESN'T. now i, personally, found this strange considering how james and sirius tormented him and i know that if i were snape, i would have gotten out of their way as fast as possible in order to avoid an embarrasing confrontation. but he followed behind them and seated himself at a safe distance in the shadows of some bushes.

as we read on, we learn that lilly was one of the girls down by the lakes edge AND one of the girls in the group who seperated james and snape! harry was just too transfixed in his father's converstaion to notice her. then i realized that snape wasn't really too focused on his OWL paper to notice where he was going. he knew exactly where he was going...HE WAS FOLLOWING LILLY. he tried to hide himself at a safe enough distance as to not be noticed by james and sirius (or anyone else for that matter) but close enough that he could still see lilly...

ever since reading about snape's memory in the 5th book, i knew immediately that snape loved lily. and as for calling her a "mudblood" when she tried to help him - i saw it as the same thing. it was CLEARLY a ruse to hide his crush on her (like you said its the classic tactic of the young. i know i used to use it!;) ). its like you've read my mind.

i wrote this in a previous response to another editorial, but i'll repeat it here:

Snape resented Harry's father even more than he did in school due to the fact that he ended up marrying Lilly. This would also explain why he dislikes Harry so much. If what we know about the night Harry's parents died is true, we know that LV offered to spare Lilly's life in exchange for Harry's. She, obviously, refused. maybe thats why snape was so remorseful for telling LV about the prophecy. it was his actions that were responsible for killing the one person he loved...If it wasn't for Harry, she would be alive. So Snape resents Harry because of this (and because Harry is so much like his father). And he resents himself for being responsible for Lilly's death. So even though he does not like Harry, he feels he can right his wrong by joining Dumbledore's side and by protecting Harry as best he can. i think dumbledore knew about this.

dumbledore obviously couldn't tell this to harry. it would be too wierd and it would violate snape's trust. hence why he never gives any explanation to harry on why he trusts snape like he does.

good job Rachel! :)

p.s.- i am in no way a snape/ lilly shipper (i feel that's kind of impossible considering that lilly is dead), nor do i think they ever dated...but i've never doubted the idea that snape liked lilly in high school. its pretty obvious in my opinion if you read that part of the book carefully enough (however, that is JUST my opinion)! i'm about 95% positive that this idea will be verified by the final book. snape went to school with both lilly and james and obviously knew lilly (he knew she was muggle-born afterall), but snape never mentions her to harry. he only ever speaks ill of james. he's never said one bad thing about lilly - i don't think that's a coincidence...

ever since reading about snape's memory in the 5th book, i knew immediately that snape loved lily. and as for calling her a "mudblood" when she tried to help him - i saw it as the same thing. it was CLEARLY a ruse to hide his crush on her (like you said its the classic tactic of the young. i know i used to use it!;) ). its like you've read my mind.

.

I agree. IT was also to look good in front of his slytherin buddies who hated muggle borns-he couldn't be caught being nice to one. Maybe this was in the editorial, i forget--but maybe part of the reason this was snape's worst memory was that he regrets being so mean to lily.

...HE WAS FOLLOWING LILLY....

Very well explained! Why did Snape take the same path as the Marauders? Why would he bother staying close to THEM? It's actually kind of sad if you think about it. James tried to be around Lily that's clear. But Lily wanted to stay with her circle of friends close to James as well. And Snape was following Lily without perhaps seeing (at least then) that Lily was interested in James, too.


ever since reading about snape's memory in the 5th book, i knew immediately that snape loved lily. and as for calling her a "mudblood" when she tried to help him - i saw it as the same thing. it was CLEARLY a ruse to hide his crush on her (like you said its the classic tactic of the young. i know i used to use it!;) ). its like you've read my mind.


I also think that what's making Snape's Worst Memory his worst memory is the mudblood calling. What else really other than that? If it's only about the Marauders then why isn' the memory of James saving Snape from the Werewolf (Lupin) more devastating (after all this created a life depth for Snape)? Also it cannot be the fact that James used Snapes own spell against him. That spell had been popular during their fifth year as Lupin says in HBP, meaning other people than Snape had been using it prior to the exams. No Lily is probably the reason here. And if one thinks about it bad memories often involve reactions and deeds one is ashamed of having made. So I can see how this regret of the Mudblood name calling is still causing a feeling of shame for Snape. It doesn't matter whether Lily forgave him or not, Snape hasn't forgiven himself.



Snape resented Harry's father even more than he did in school due to the fact that he ended up marrying Lilly. This would also explain why he dislikes Harry so much. If what we know about the night Harry's parents died is true, we know that LV offered to spare Lilly's life in exchange for Harry's. She, obviously, refused. maybe thats why snape was so remorseful for telling LV about the prophecy. it was his actions that were responsible for killing the one person he loved...If it wasn't for Harry, she would be alive. So Snape resents Harry because of this (and because Harry is so much like his father). And he resents himself for being responsible for Lilly's death. So even though he does not like Harry, he feels he can right his wrong by joining Dumbledore's side and by protecting Harry as best he can. i think dumbledore knew about this.


Snapes hatred for Harry could be because Harry resembles Snapes own guilty feelings about Lily's death. It is still an issue that must be explained and your description is really good! But the question one has to ask is, why does Snapes Worst Memory surpass even the memory of Lily's death? What went wrong back then, that everything went so wrong afterwards (Lily marrying James, Lily being killed by Lord Voldemort). I mean there must something else which makes Snapes Worst Memory even more significant than the fact that Lily married James or that Lily got murdered by Lord Voldemort.


p.s.- i am in no way a snape/ lilly shipper (i feel that's kind of impossible considering that lilly
is dead), nor do i think they ever dated...but i've never doubted the idea that snape liked lilly in high school. its pretty obvious in my opinion if you read that part of the book carefully enough (however, that is JUST my opinion)! i'm about 95% positive that this idea will be verified by the final book.


Same with me basically. There are quite enough hints that would make this possible. I mean those hints about Lily's popularity, her excellence in Potion and her *membership* in the Slug Club. Also JKR's several interview remarks, that Lily was a popular girl and how JKR once seemed to pretend outrage when she was asked whether Snape had ever been in love very much all hint in this direction!


but snape never mentions her to harry. he only ever speaks ill of james. he's never said one bad thing about lilly - i don't think that's a coincidence...

Right. I said that quite a few times, that it' suspicious how Snape never bothers about Lily. I mean she would have been an interesting source of new insults for Harry.

Some Snape fans (who though refuse to see the Lily connection) said to me that Snapes Worst Memory is simply about the deepest feeling of humiliation a person can endure. And it is no wonder that a "high school" incident left more scares than some horrible scenes with the death eaters. I was told that Lily even behaved horribly, thoughtless and even self-righteous in that scene, adding to Snape's humiliation. Also Lily in fact used that scene to flirt around with James and that this scene probably lead to their relationship in their 7th year. But if Snape really feels that way, why not say something nasty about Lily for a change?
No the question that needs to be asked is if anything was changed for Snape during his worst memory.

Some Snape fans (who though refuse to see the Lily connection) said to me that Snapes Worst Memory is simply about the deepest feeling of humiliation a person can endure. And it is no wonder that a "high school" incident left more scares than some horrible scenes with the death eaters. I was told that Lily even behaved horribly, thoughtless and even self-righteous in that scene, adding to Snape's humiliation. Also Lily in fact used that scene to flirt around with James and that this scene probably lead to their relationship in their 7th year. But if Snape really feels that way, why not say something nasty about Lily for a change?
No the question that needs to be asked is if anything was changed for Snape during his worst memory.

Thanks for the nice comments! :blush:

I can't believe that some people think that Lilly was in the wrong for trying to help Snape! I don't think her reasoning to stand up for him was due to the fact that she wanted to look good (a.k.a - being "self-rightous"), or because she had an ulterior motives! But like the saying goes: "No good deed goes unpunished."

Simply put, I think its known as Snape's worst memory because its obviously humiliating for him - and the reason why its so humiliating is because Snape (I'm assuming) hated school. From what it seems, he didn't have any real friends, he wasn't accepted by his peers, and just wanted to get through the day without being picked on.

So there you are ("you " being Snape), minding your own business, getting ready to leave, when your enemies (the Marauders) come out of nowhere and hex you. All your peers are standing around, watching you, you feel like an idiot and embarrassed. You try to defend yourself, but you can't because you can't really move. Your being taunted...then the girl you like comes out of nowhere and sees you in the state your in, which makes it even more embarrassing than before. Then you get turned upside down and everyone sees your UNDERPANTS (and not your best pair)!!! Even Lilly can't help but smile a little (which must have hurt, even if she didn't mean it to)! James lets you fall to the ground.

Snape didn't want anyone to know about his crush on Lilly. Lilly was pretty, smart, and well-liked. What do you think would happen if word got out that he liked someone so "out of his league"? he probably couldn't bear to think about the reaction Lilly would have (not having very high self-esteem, he probably thought she would reject him right away, and it would be just another thing he would be tormented about). So he called her a "mudblood" in order to hide his true feelings. Maybe he was afraid the teasing of the Marauders would increase if James found out he had a thing for Lilly too. Or maybe due to the fact that she had seemed to find his humiliation a bit amusing too, and he was hurt by that. Lilly, stung by being called a "mudblood", turned very cold and suggested he "wash his pants better" as well as calling him "Snivelus" like the Marauders...just adding insult to injury. :(

So yes - while this occurance may have been "the deepest feeling of humiliation" for Snape, i think it's weird that some people still don't think that Lilly had anything to do with it. I always try to look at it from the writer's perspective and my thoughts are:Why throw Lilly being there in the first place? What does she really add? J.K. could have just let it be a memory of James and Marauders being mean and left it at that, but she put Lilly in there. Why would she have done that if Lilly didn't have some sort of connection to Snape and his memory? Why doesn't Snape ever mention her to Harry, but he constantly puts down James? It doesn't add up.

Who knows what we'll learn about this in the final book (and we better find out something)! Maybe J.K. will elaborate on why it's Snape's "worst memory". Maybe something about this memory brought Lilly and James together initially... I think there's more to this than meets the eye and, hopefully, all will be revealed in time! :D

Simply put, I think its known as Snape's worst memory because its obviously humiliating for him ...So there you are .... Then you get turned upside down and everyone sees your UNDERPANTS (and not your best pair)!!! Even Lilly can't help but smile a little (which must have hurt, even if she didn't mean it to)!... So he called her a "mudblood" in order to hide his true feelings. Maybe he was afraid the teasing of the Marauders would increase if James found out he had a thing for Lilly too.


Hmm I like your detailed reading of Snape's Worst Memory. The underpants thing, Lily being amused, Snape also using the "Mudblood" calling as a protection so that no one will even guess his feelings for Lily... Humility, hurt and his own guilty feelings about insulting the one person who stood up for him and who he secretly had feelings for all mixed together. Perhaps before that scene Snape even hat a little bit of hope that he could be with Lily some day, but after he insulted her, he knew he could forget his hopes. Do you think none of Snape's and Lily's classmates knew of Snape's true feelings? I found it odd that in the hospital wing scene at the end of HBP when Harry said that Snape detested Lily just like James, having called her a "mudblood", how no one (especially Lupin) reacts? Maybe Lupin does know something...
I know this other theory that tries to give the "Lily connection- Snape's Worst Memory" a little bit of backstory, suggesting that Snape might have been friends and that friendship perhaps ended with Snape's Worst Memory. It would give this scene more significance. I am not suggesting that Lily dated Snape, but maybe she was sort of friendly to him. She maybe felt sorry for him and slowly gained his trust. Petunia refers to an "awful boy" at *** beginning of OotP who told Lily about the Dementors (Petunia was probably eavesdropping). Maybe "that awful boy" was Snape. Who would have called handsome, well-mannered James (James would have been quite charming in front of Lily's family I think) "awful boy"? It's also suspicious that Harry becomes upset in this scene with Petunia that she isn't using his Dad's real name.

Do you think none of Snape's and Lily's classmates knew of Snape's true feelings? I found it odd that in the hospital wing scene at the end of HBP when Harry said that Snape detested Lily just like James, having called her a "mudblood", how no one (especially Lupin) reacts? Maybe Lupin does know something...

i think that could definately be a possibility. maybe James DID know about Snape's crush on her. maybe he confronted Snape at some point, and Snape (knowing James would possibly spread it all over school just to humiliate him) went out of his way to make it look like it wasn't true.


I am not suggesting that Lily dated Snape, but maybe she was sort of friendly to him. She maybe felt sorry for him and slowly gained his trust.

i think that could be possible. Slughorn tells Harry in HBP that Lily was great at potions and Snape obviously was too. Maybe they had classes together like Harry and Malfoy.

Petunia refers to an "awful boy" at *** beginning of OotP who told Lily about the Dementors (Petunia was probably eavesdropping). Maybe "that awful boy" was Snape. Who would have called handsome, well-mannered James (James would have been quite charming in front of Lily's family I think) "awful boy"? It's also suspicious that Harry becomes upset in this scene with Petunia that she isn't using his Dad's real name.

this one i'm not so sure about just because of the movie. in the SS, doesn't Petunia say that the awful boy was James? I can't remember the exact wording, so i could be wrong...and i think that given Petunia's opinion of her sister growing up, she wouldn't care how charming James was. I think she would have seen him as a "freak" like Lily.

this one i'm not so sure about just because of the movie. in the SS, doesn't Petunia say that the awful boy was James? I can't remember the exact wording, so i could be wrong...and i think that given Petunia's opinion of her sister growing up, she wouldn't care how charming James was. I think she would have seen him as a "freak" like Lily.

In book 1 and movie 1 Petunia is really referring to both Lily and James, also in PoA when Aunt March wants to know what Harry's father used to do for a living. But in OotP it is a bit suspicious that Petunia says something like "Dementors... I heard that awful boy telling HER about them." I mean you could also be right, of course. Petunia could also simply mean James, since she obviously doesn't have the highest opinion of him either given that anything related to her sister makes her furious. However look at this interview question and Rowling's answer:

David Moulds for the News of the World - How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows?
JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically.
Is that true?
JK Rowling: Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.

-- Edinburgh "cub reporter" press conference, ITV, 17 July 2005


Isn't it odd that JKR won't say James' name here either?

Isn't it odd that JKR won't say James' name here either?

yes that is odd. i've never seen that before... :hmm: well thats definately something to think about! you may very well be right! now its going to drive me crazy until the 7th book comes out. Its ok - I forgive you. :p

its hard to theorize sometimes because there's still so much that we don't know - especially when it comes to harry's parents and everything that led up to their death.

That is quiet interesting. Did J.K Rowling not mention James because it wasn't James or did she just not mention James? That is the question.

I definitely don't think it was James. In the text I could see Petunia calling James "that awful boy," but since JKR admits there's more to it, it's almost certainly someone else, and who else but Snape?

If it wasn't James, I feel the only other option is Snape (whom anyone would probably call "that awful boy" LOL. Just look at the state of him!) But who knows. Petunia would probably call anyone who is up to their eyeballs in magic "awful". Maybe one of the reasons that Snape never speaks of Lily in the series is that he was actually a friend of hers (oviously not of James though) and he keeps it hidden because his work keeps him in the company of proud purebloods, Death Eaters and the like, who, obviously frown upon that. We don't know where Lily grew up. Could it have been near another Wizard family... Snape? James? Maybe during holidays, whomever Petunia mentioned, used to hang out at the Lily and Petunia's place? Snape had an abusive father, maybe he went to her place as an escape, and she knew him more personally than anyone else? (This is all speculative of course.)

I agree with ep300: It's very hard to theorize about people (like Lily and even Snape to an extent) who we know so little about. I just can't wait until the Deathly Hallows comes out so I can learn more about these characters!

Couldn't it have been Sirius who was talking with Lily?

I think that if it were James or Sirius, she wouldn't have answered the question in such a way. I think she's holding back because it's important or something we don't know yet, like about some sort of relationship with Snape.

I agree with apollonia. If it was Sirius, JKR would've just said it was Sirius. It would most likely have to be someone controversial to us (like Snape) or why be sneaky and secretive about it? Plus, we don't really know what kind of relationship Lily had with Sirius. He was her husbands best friend, but that doesn't mean he was her best friend. (Who exactly were her friends anyway?) In fact, knowing Sirius' behavior, she probably thought he was a bad influence on her husband LOL ;)

Now here's a thought, if Snape and Lily were good friends, secretly, at school. Wouldn't it be funny if Hermione was right about the HBP textbook? That is, that the potion corrections in it were written by a woman - Lily. (But maybe the jinxes and curses and such were written by Snape.) That would make things interesting. Also what if "Snape's Worst Memory" was that he humiliated himself and his friend, Lily, and after that they were no longer friends all because of his silly teenager-y comment to her?

I think the feminine handwriting is probably Lily's. I also considered the idea that part of the reason it was Snape's worst memory was because he may have regreted the way he insulted her.