Returning to Hogwarts

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YukiVamp
January 8th, 2006, 5:20 am
I'm REALLY hoping he goes back to Hogwarts. It just wouldn't be the same without the school...

If nothing else, I want the final fight to be at the school.

voldyvolvol
January 8th, 2006, 6:30 am
I thought JK said they were going to go back. Somewhere on another forum, someone said,...

thewran
January 8th, 2006, 7:09 am
First, Harry does not need a base of operations. Second, Hogwarts is utterly unsuitable. There, Harry is bound by the rules on students. He cannot travel where ever he need to travel whenever. Harry cannot tell MacGonagal what he is doing, and she was sufficiently vexed at his refusal to divulge what Dumbledore was doing that I doubt she'd offer "special permission." Besides, this would call too much attention to what Harry is doing.

Wat do u mean that Harry does not need a base of operations? Even dumbledore had a base of operations (Hogwarts). IT would be unrealistic if HArry does not have a touchbase where he can have easy access to the basics of neccessary life (food, shelter, water, etc) and a healthy supply of reliable information. And where would he get this if not at Hogwarts. HOgwarts is safer than the Burrow and Diagon Alley. I suppose he could move around like Slughorn did but how would he get information if he is not in touch with anyone? He couldn't unless revealing his position so I don't think he will be moving life some kind of fugitive. And HArry has been outside of HOgswart before without too much hassle, who said that going out of school was a problem, its coming back in thats hard because of all the anti-intruder spells.

Badgers_Rule
January 8th, 2006, 7:14 am
This is just another twist JKR is throwing at us. There are 7 books for 7 years of Hogwarts so Harry will be going back to school. The order will be looking for the Horcruxes, and somebody will talk Harry into going to school.

thewran
January 8th, 2006, 7:18 am
oooo.... i don't no if the order nos about the horcruxes though, but agree with u Badgers Rule

eVaNeScEnCe
January 8th, 2006, 7:33 am
I'm fairly certain he will return to Hogwarts at some point, just not complete an entire school year. It'll be too much of a hassle for him to go back and forth constantly, from Hogwarts to wherever the next potential horcrux beckons, plus, I don't think even the schoolboard will be that lax and give him permission to freely miss school whenever an "emergency" pops up. I just don't see Harry attending a normal school year or resume a life of "normalcy" ever again within the walls of Hogwarts.

Wimsey
January 15th, 2006, 1:18 am
Wat do u mean that Harry does not need a base of operations? Even dumbledore had a base of operations (Hogwarts). IT would be unrealistic if HArry does not have a touchbase where he can have easy access to the basics of neccessary life (food, shelter, water, etc) and a healthy supply of reliable information.

Harry and Dumbledore were doing two very different things. Dumbledore was organizing resistance to Voldemort. Harry is trying to find the final Horcruxes and eliminate them. Dumbledore needed a group. Harry needs to avoid groups.

As for necessities, shelter, etc.: they are wizards! They can apparate. Harry has tons of money.

As for information, Hogwarts not only does not have a healthy supply, it has an unhealthy lack of information, at least of the variety that Harry needs.


And where would he get this if not at Hogwarts. HOgwarts is safer than the Burrow and Diagon Alley. I suppose he could move around like Slughorn did but how would he get information if he is not in touch with anyone?

What information does anybody have that would be of any use to Harry? Nobody else even knows about the Horcruxes. They certainly cannot tell Harry what he needs to know: where can he find them? They cannot tell him Voldemort's whereabouts: the Aurors cannot determine that.

Now, Hogwarts is safer than those other places. However, what matter is that? At Hogwarts, Harry cannot travel around looking for Horcruxes or trying to unearth more information about Voldemort's past. Moreover, Harry will be in most danger when he is actively hunting the Horcruxes: where he returns to at night is of far less importance at this point.


He couldn't unless revealing his position so I don't think he will be moving life some kind of fugitive. And HArry has been outside of HOgswart before without too much hassle, who said that going out of school was a problem, its coming back in thats hard because of all the anti-intruder spells.

Students are not allowed to leave the school without permission. Heck, they are not supposed to be out of their common rooms without permission after hours.

So, how does Harry search for two Horcrux locations that can be anywhere in the world with those limitations?

Going back will not be as huge of a problem: if Harry is at Hogsmeade and requests permission to come to Hogwarts, then why wouldn't MacGonagal grant it? That being said, do we have any reason to think that Harry has to go to Hogwarts itself? Aberforth lives in Hogsmeade, and as Dumbledore's only known relative, it most probably will be he who has Dumbledore's memories and other things.

Now, we know that Ginny is going to be in the story and that she'll probably have an important role at some point: we are due to see powerful magic from her, after all. I am assuming that the Weasleys will send her back to school. The easiest way to reunite her with Harry is if Harry visits the general vicinity.


Finally, folks, we need to think from the perspective of story and literature. HBP closed on the resounding Choice by Harry, Ron & Hermione to NOT return to Hogwarts, and to pursue Voldemort instead. If JKR went back on that, then she would completely undermine the dramatic impact of that scene, and greatly diminish the book itself. Lit 101 tells us that this ain't gonna happen.....


I'm fairly certain he will return to Hogwarts at some point, just not complete an entire school year. It'll be too much of a hassle for him to go back and forth constantly, from Hogwarts to wherever the next potential horcrux beckons, plus, I don't think even the schoolboard will be that lax and give him permission to freely miss school whenever an "emergency" pops up. I just don't see Harry attending a normal school year or resume a life of "normalcy" ever again within the walls of Hogwarts.

The other problem is, if Harry is at Hogwarts, then how is he going to learn where the Horcruxes are? He might get information about one more locality from Regulus' artifacts (or Kreacher's memory of them), but that still will leave Harry with one more hiding place. Harry won't go to Hogwarts to search for those clues simply because it is not as if there will be many clues there: a) Voldemort did not start hiding Horcruxes until after he left school; and, b) if such clues were there, then Dumbledore probably would have found them already, as he knew more about Voldemort's past than did anybody else. Indeed, suppose that the near-fan-fiction-hope that there is a Horcrux somewhere at Hogwarts is true: Harry will have to make that inference from someplace else, because he has left Hogwarts expecting to find them elswewhere.

MacGonagal is not going to bend rules for Harry, either. First, she is not that sort. Second, she probably will remained a bit miffed that Harry won't entrust her with his doings. Harry cannot fake emergencies: he has no living family about which he cares, and MacGonagal would be able to verify stories about the Weasleys.


So, all of this leaves Hogwarts a very untenable place for Harry.


This is just another twist JKR is throwing at us. There are 7 books for 7 years of Hogwarts so Harry will be going back to school. The order will be looking for the Horcruxes, and somebody will talk Harry into going to school.

The Order does not know about the Horcruxes. One thing that HBP made clear is that the members fo the Order had no idea what Dumbledore was doing. Dumbledore himself says that only he, Harry (and Ron & Hermione) know about the Horcruxes.

As for the 7 books for 7 years, JKR changed all that at the end of HBP. The "twist" was the slight smoke screen that she gave us. It is an ironic truth, after all: there are seven books and seven years at Hogwarts. Nothing there says that Harry would be attending all 7 years!

Finally, twists are one thing. Completely undermining your story is another. HP is about choices, especially "right" versus "easy" choices. Harry made the Hard and Right choices at the end of HBP.


I thought JK said they were going to go back. Somewhere on another forum, someone said,...

JKR said that the same place that she said that somebody would be switching houses in HBP: the wishful thinking of some fans.

In fact, JKR never said that. JKR has said that VII will be about finding the Horcruxes and the final confrontation with Voldemort.


I'm REALLY hoping he goes back to Hogwarts. It just wouldn't be the same without the school...

It's not the same anymore! Keep in mind, the story is not about Hogwarts: it's about Harry Potter, and how the choices affecting his life.


If nothing else, I want the final fight to be at the school.

That seems implausible. From a literary point of view, Privet Dr. would be the place to end it: that would provide narrative symmetry.

However, a more plausible point still will be the Department of Mysteries. The Veil is a gun that has been fired once, but it could be used again: if Harry could force Voldemort through it (perhaps going through with him), then Voldemort is finished. Alternatively, there is still one gun on the mantle from the DoM: the room that Harry could not enter, that nobody could enter, where they keep the mysteries of love. That would be the thematic symmetry, as a story initiated by an act of love could be finished in a room devoted to the concept.

dobby_rocks
January 15th, 2006, 1:52 am
I think having the finale battle at Hogwarts would be interesting I mean its both a place that Harry and Tom the one place they always felt at home. The first place that ever felt like home to them

Iíd be surprised if we didnít see Hogwarts at all in the finale book, I donít think Harry will be attending school there but I think we will still see it some point in the story.

Wimsey
January 15th, 2006, 3:07 am
I think having the finale battle at Hogwarts would be interesting I mean its both a place that Harry and Tom the one place they always felt at home. The first place that ever felt like home to them

That is true. However, I expect either narrative or thematic symmetry from JKR. Plus, we have that outstanding gun on the wall with the DoM room.


Iíd be surprised if we didnít see Hogwarts at all in the finale book, I donít think Harry will be attending school there but I think we will still see it some point in the story.

I think that we would all be stunned to see none of it. However, given how much JKR has to do in a book, we won't get to see too much of it. The story has outgrown Hogwarts, as has Harry himself.

Badgers_Rule
January 15th, 2006, 4:53 am
All Im trying to say is that, now that Dumbeldore is dead, through his portrait he can tell the order about the horcrux, why keep it a secret from them if he believes they can help and find the horcrux. I really dont believe Dumbledore really wants Harry to try getting them by himself after all the trouble he went through just to find the one in the cave and getting to it. Harry's going to need more help than just his school chums to get them

Tarragon
January 15th, 2006, 5:26 am
I think having the finale battle at Hogwarts would be interesting I mean its both a place that Harry and Tom the one place they always felt at home. The first place that ever felt like home to them.

Perhaps J.K. Rowling will take Harry's full-circle: ending it where it began by having the 'final battle' take place at Godric's Hollow.

And, just to touch on the subject at hand, I do not believe Harry, Ron or Hermione will return to Hogwarts in the last book.

Wimsey
January 15th, 2006, 5:38 am
All Im trying to say is that, now that Dumbeldore is dead, through his portrait he can tell the order about the horcrux, why keep it a secret from them if he believes they can help and find the horcrux.

First of all, portraits do not retain that sort of information. The Headmaster's portraits retain more than most, but there still is no reason to think that it preserves that level of knowledge.

Second of all, if Dumbledore's portrait could have done that, then it would have told Harry to tell MacGonagal. It did not, which means it could not or would not.




Dumbledore was preparing Harry for this all along. Dumbledore knew that he might die at any time. He knew that Draco was trying to kill him, and that Voldemort always was trying to kill him. He knew that Snape had sworn an unbreakable oath to kill him.

Yet Dumbledore made Harry promise not to tell anybody else. Dumbledore realizes that only Harry is up to this task. Others would try to delegate authority, seek help, etc.: and thus allow more people to learn Voldemort's secret, including (ultimately) some of Voldemort's spies. Voldemort had spies in the Order before, and we should not be surprised if he does so still. He certainly has eyes and ears in the ministry.


[QUOTE=Badgers_Rule]Harry's going to need more help than just his school chums to get them

Why? Harry knows a lot about Voldemort's past, more than he probably realizes that he does. He has Hermione, who is a whiz at Arithmency and Runes: the skills needed to detect and break curses (according to the Gringotts job ad). Ron probably will come in handy for his knowledge of the wizarding world and his skills in spatial geometry.

I think that the lesson we are suppose to have taken is that only Harry is up for this task.

ladyblack23
January 15th, 2006, 5:47 am
Maybe Book six will be set just over the summer holidays and will end with Harry going back to Hogwarts for his seventh year, so the JK won't have to write and we won't have to read the depressing prospect of Hogwarts without Dumbledore. It also means that Harry both defeat Voldemort AND complete his education.

Wimsey
January 15th, 2006, 5:56 am
Perhaps J.K. Rowling will take Harry's full-circle: ending it where it began by having the 'final battle' take place at Godric's Hollow. .

That would be another symmetry. It would be more symmetrical for the narrative to end on Privet Dr., as that is where it began. However, it would be symmetrical for the story to end at Godrics Hollow.

The question is, why would it end there? I am still leaning towards the DoM because of the "Love" room: somehow, that could.

Regardless, I think that Hogwarts is an improbable location for the final confrontation. I expect that it will feature in the epilogue, however

Tarragon
January 15th, 2006, 6:20 am
That would be another symmetry. It would be more symmetrical for the narrative to end on Privet Dr., as that is where it began. However, it would be symmetrical for the story to end at Godrics Hollow.
Blah. I left out a word in my last post, meaning to say, Perhaps J.K. Rowling would take Harry's story full-circle by setting the final battle at Godric's Hollow. I should really start rereading what I write more closely. Oh well.

And just to clarify my meaning, because I am not really sure if anyone will understand what I am trying to say, while the books began at Privet Drive, this entire ordeal for Harry began at Godric's Hollow the night the Dark Lord marked Harry as his equal. So one possibility for the place of the final battle is Godric's Hollow, as it would seem fitting to break Harry and Voldemort's entertwined fates where they were connected.

The question is, why would it end there? I am still leaning towards the DoM because of the "Love" room: somehow, that could.
Also a plausible possibility.

Regardless, I think that Hogwarts is an improbable location for the final confrontation. I expect that it will feature in the epilogue, however
I agree with both statements. For me it would be rather repetitive if the final confrontantion were to take place at Hogwarts as Harry has already faced Voldemort in various forms there twice before.

marianna58
January 15th, 2006, 6:30 am
I really think it could be in the LOVE room as well. Can you imagine, the book being titled "Harry Potter and the Unspeakable Room" or something.

I think it may very well happen at Hogwarts, but it would be somewhat redundant. A new place, or an old one that brings it all back (Godric's Hollow area)...would be best.

Wimsey
January 15th, 2006, 7:11 am
And just to clarify my meaning, because I am not really sure if anyone will understand what I am trying to say, while the books began at Privet Drive, this entire ordeal for Harry began at Godric's Hollow the night the Dark Lord marked Harry as his equal. So one possibility for the place of the final battle is Godric's Hollow, as it would seem fitting to break Harry and Voldemort's entertwined fates where they were connected..


That is why I distinguished between where the story starts and where the narrative starts. Narrative symmetry and plot-symmetry are popular literary concepts (and terms you no doubt have seen), but there is no reason not to go for "story" symmetry.

Corbin Dallas
January 15th, 2006, 7:29 am
Wimsey,

Well Dumbledore did tell Harry he could tell Ron and Hermione about the Horcruxes, considering they have proven themselve trustworthy over the past 5 years(sorry just nitpicking ;) ) and as to the final battle with Riddle, though I think Harry does return to the Department of Mysteries, I think Harry and Riddle finsih it off in the Chamber of Secrets... though Harry's story will finnish at some other place like Privet Drive or Godric's Hollow...

Cheers

pscosgof
January 15th, 2006, 7:55 am
Some of you forget that this will be the last book. We have to leave Harry as a fully matured wizard, having achieved the seemingly impossible task that we know has been coming for so long. So far Harry hasn't made that big of a transition, so a dramatic change will have to take place. Harry leaving Hogwarts is that change. Just because he will no longer be in the classes does not mean that he cannot visit, and it does not mean that a good portion of the beginning of the book won't take place at Hogwarts. Rowling wouldn't just leave the school out of the story altogether.

In short, I'm sure we'll get enough Hogwarts for our liking in the last book, but Harry really needs to step up and take charge. Just look at how successful Fred and George became after leaving the school.

Wimsey
January 15th, 2006, 8:30 am
Well Dumbledore did tell Harry he could tell Ron and Hermione about the Horcruxes, considering they have proven themselve trustworthy over the past 5 years(sorry just nitpicking

Yes, but I think that I included those two. (If not that post, then in others: it all blurs into one.)

...and as to the final battle with Riddle, though I think Harry does return to the Department of Mysteries, I think Harry and Riddle finsih it off in the Chamber of Secrets... though Harry's story will finnish at some other place like Privet Drive or Godric's Hollow...

Well, the story ends when Voldemort dies. Everything after that will be epilogue, really.


Some of you forget that this will be the last book. We have to leave Harry as a fully matured wizard, having achieved the seemingly impossible task that we know has been coming for so long. So far Harry hasn't made that big of a transition, so a dramatic change will have to take place.

Harry really made the transition at the end of HBP. He put away the childish things, as did Ron & Hermione. Ginny is next to do so.

But I think that you have the general gist of it.

aaron016
January 15th, 2006, 8:44 am
I think he will go back to Hogwarts. He has to figure out how to destroy Horcruxes and where they can be, and I think the best place for him to plan out his adventures and figure out how to complete them is at Hogwarts. It is still the safest place in the world and it has many resources. I think he has to return there, possibly not for the whole year, but I'm sure we're going to see a bit more of Hogwarts in the final book.

Insignificant
January 15th, 2006, 8:49 am
This is just another twist JKR is throwing at us. There are 7 books for 7 years of Hogwarts so Harry will be going back to school. The order will be looking for the Horcruxes, and somebody will talk Harry into going to school.

I agree with this ... and also the book wouldnt be the same without a bit of Hogwarts ... whether it is a brief visit, or a year-long stay ....

Wimsey
January 15th, 2006, 9:09 am
I think he will go back to Hogwarts. He has to figure out how to destroy Horcruxes and where they can be, and I think the best place for him to plan out his adventures and figure out how to complete them is at Hogwarts.

How can Hogwarts teach him how to destory Horcruxes? Nobody there knows anything about them, nor do the library book mention them. Also, Harry already has destroyed one, simply by breaking the object. (JKR is willing to answer this question, which pretty much means that we are supposed to know that answer already.)

As for where they are, that requires understanding Voldemort's past. Again, Hogwarts has nothing to offer him: few people there even know that Voldemort was born Tom Riddle.

Harry already has chosen to not return. He might visit, but his days as a student are done.

pscosgof
January 15th, 2006, 9:12 am
Harry really made the transition at the end of HBP. He put away the childish things, as did Ron & Hermione. Ginny is next to do so.

But I think that you have the general gist of it.

I understand what you're saying, but there's quite a large gap between getting past generic adolescence and destroying the most accomplished dark wizard of the century.

Anyone can "put away the childish things". Not anyone can do what Harry must. The transition has yet to fully happen. All of Harry's confrontations with Voldemort up to this point have only ever been about Harry defending himself.

Corbin Dallas
January 15th, 2006, 9:14 am
Yes, but I think that I included those two. (If not that post, then in others: it all blurs into one.) I understand ;)

Well, the story ends when Voldemort dies. Everything after that will be epilogue, really.
I just mean that though Harry's story with Riddle is done, the Epilogue will tell us how the rest of it will go, or end anyways...

Cheers

Awiana
January 15th, 2006, 10:28 am
No, I donít think Harry will return to Hogwarts. Why would he? Well, itís possible he might visit it at some point, but he has to hunt the Horcruxes, and I highly doubt they are all hidden at Hogwarts. Therefore it seems likely to me that Harry wonít spend a lot of time at Hogwarts.

half_blood_rat1
January 15th, 2006, 11:24 am
I think Harry will return to Hogwarts because of the placement of dumbledores portrait.... or will he have another one somewhere
... anyway i just cant see the last book without hogwarts

Tarragon
January 15th, 2006, 3:54 pm
This is just another twist JKR is throwing at us. There are 7 books for 7 years of Hogwarts so Harry will be going back to school. The order will be looking for the Horcruxes, and somebody will talk Harry into going to school.

From what we can gather from the books, there were only four people who knew concretely of the existence of Voldemort's Horcruxes, Dumbledore, Harry, Ron and Hermione. Dumbledore, as you know, is the one who told Harry who in turn told Ron and Hermione with the headmaster's permission. Slughorn suspects, and in the deepest, darkest depths of his mind may know they exist and he indirectly enabled Tom to make them.

And then I suppose R.A.B. also knew about the Dark Lord's Horcruxes because he found one, though we do not know what he did with it or whether he is dead or alive (though, just a thought: if he is alive, perhaps Harry will find him and he will help them). So then six. Out of those six people, one is dead, another tampers with his own memories to try to forget what he knows and what he has done, and the whereabouts of the other, whether six feet under or in hiding somewhere, unknown, leaving just two teenage wizards and a teenage witch. (And Voldemort would make it seven, who know/knew, but I am leaving him out because, seeing as he was the person who made them, he probably knows they exist).

So then, out of the above-mentioned people, only Dumbledore and Slughorn knew Voldemort when he was young and I believe that Slughorn has already been as much help as he is going to be, taking into account that Tom kept up a facade around him and only ever let his guard down in the one instance when he asked Slughorn of Horcruxes. And Dumbledore is now dead, though he passed on a substantial amount of useful information to Harry before he kicked it that will at least help to get Harry started on his...quest or whatever we want to call it.

Now, Dumbledore told no one aside from Harry what he was up to which means that he felt secrecy was of the utmost importance. Harry is not stupid. He knows that if Dumbledore felt that as few people as possible should know about the matter, then Harry will probably tell no more people than he already has (though perhaps he will tell Ginny). So the need for secrecy would be destroyed if Harry blabbed it to an entire Organization of people and then sent them all out to do the work for him.

Then there is how completely pointless and entirely ridiculous it would be for J.K. Rowling to have spent a huge chunk of book 6 having Dumbledore impart so much of this knowledge on to Harry so he could find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes only to have the members of the Order of the Phoenix go out to do it for him. If this were to be what was going to happen, why would J.K. Rowling not just have Dumbledore tell the Order everything he told Harry? This argument lacks in merit, and it seems like a last-ditch reason for Harry to remain at school.

Wimsey
January 15th, 2006, 8:43 pm
I understand what you're saying, but there's quite a large gap between getting past generic adolescence and destroying the most accomplished dark wizard of the century.

Perhaps: we have such a small sample size on these things that it's tough to say! Certainly, being an adult has not helped people destroy Voldemort.


Anyone can "put away the childish things". Not anyone can do what Harry must. The transition has yet to fully happen. All of Harry's confrontations with Voldemort up to this point have only ever been about Harry defending himself.

Actually, there is an entire generation called "the Baby-boomers." Most of them still have not put away childish things!

But, seriously, you are correct that Harry still has to develop dynamically. He does so in every book. However, Harry never will have the magical skill to beat Voldemort. Hogwarts cannot give it to him. Auror "graduate school" cannot even give it to him. That leaves Hogwarts without much to offer Harry.


From what we can gather from the books, there were only four people who knew concretely of the existence of Voldemort's Horcruxes, Dumbledore, Harry, Ron and Hermione. Dumbledore, as you know, is the one who told Harry who in turn told Ron and Hermione with the headmaster's permission. Slughorn suspects, and in the deepest, darkest depths of his mind may know they exist and he indirectly enabled Tom to make them.

Sluggy's role probably is done. He provided the single biggest plot element to date (and the importance of Lily's eyes). If he knew anything about Voldemort's history (barring the Horcruxes), then he probably told Dumbledore: a classic behavior of someone trying to hide one fact is to be over-cooperative about sharing others.


And then I suppose R.A.B. also knew about the Dark Lord's Horcruxes because he found one, though we do not know what he did with it or whether he is dead or alive

We know that Regulus is dead, and JKR has practically confirmed that RAB is Regulus. However.... Kreacher might well remember what Regulus was doing. Keep in mind that Kreacher is a bit deranged for some reason. Sirius attributed it to living alone with Black portraits. However, given house-elf behavior, then think about what would happen if Kreacher had to help Regulus through the "torture" potion in the Cave: being ordered to (apparently) hurt his master would have been maddening to such a loyal house-elf.

Regulus knew about only one Horcrux. It was unimaginable that there was more than one: indeed, even working out that there was a Horcrux was quite an intellectual feat. However, Regulus must have known about Voldemort's past. Thus, he might have known about other places where he thought that "the" Horcrux might be. Kreacher might remember these places.

And, yeah, we can forget about Voldemort: yes, he knows where the other two Horcruxes are, but I doubt that he has ever told anyone!


So then, out of the above-mentioned people, only Dumbledore and Slughorn knew Voldemort when he was young and I believe that Slughorn has already been as much help as he is going to be, taking into account that Tom kept up a facade around him and only ever let his guard down in the one instance when he asked Slughorn of Horcruxes. And Dumbledore is now dead, though he passed on a substantial amount of useful information to Harry before he kicked it that will at least help to get Harry started on his...quest or whatever we want to call it.

Also, an Order member who we have seen in the background will stand forward. Everybody's best bet for that is Aberforth. Aberforth is Dumbledore's closest living relative, so he probably will have Dumbledore's possessions. These might very well include more memories through which Harry can search for important clues (like, where did Voldemort learn to make Horcruxes?)


Then there is how completely pointless and entirely ridiculous it would be for J.K. Rowling to have spent a huge chunk of book 6 having Dumbledore impart so much of this knowledge on to Harry so he could find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes only to have the members of the Order of the Phoenix go out to do it for him.

You are completely correct. The scenarios that people have contrived that would allow Harry to stay at Hogwarts all basically are equivalent to chucking HBP out of the window.

James_Potter_
January 15th, 2006, 8:56 pm
I don't think Harry will be there as a student but he might go there to talk to McGonagall. He already broke up with Ginny and doesn't want to put any more of his friends in danger. He knows he can't be around Ginny anymore because he thought Snape found out about them but even if Snape didn't Harry is to honorable to put anyone in danger, no matter how slight. Thusley he might return there but not to learn as other students learn but as Dumbledore and he learned about mystery.

IgoRetla
January 15th, 2006, 9:04 pm
These might very well include more memories through which Harry can search for important clues (like, where did Voldemort learn to make Horcruxes?)/QUOTE]

That's an easy one. Either from Grindlewald (not buyin' that), or from a book stashed in the Hiding Room feature of the Room of Requirement.

[QUOTE=Wimsey]You are completely correct. The scenarios that people have contrived that would allow Harry to stay at Hogwarts all basically are equivalent to chucking HBP out of the window.

Some of you are missing something about clues to Horcruxes. There is nothing else in Dumbledore's memory, it should be clear that the cave was the end of the road, the most remote and least likely place to have found.

It's Harry's memories that are important. As Ms. Rowling said, "... Dumbledore has given him some pretty valuable clues and Harry, also, in the course of previous six books has amassed more knowledge than he realizes. That's all I am going to say".

And I can easily think of one simple way for Harry to find three Horcruxes quickly. I suppose that I should write an editorial.

I cannot forget, either, that Harry has a lot to learn. Dumbledore told him that it would take a highly skilled and powerful wizard to defeat Voldemort (just forget about "destroying Horcruxes", that's not at issue), and stressed that Harry isn't highly skilled (in the cavern). As if we didn't know that. So he has to learn somewhere, and leaving aside the sentimental issues, Hogwarts seems as good a place as any. Do you have any alternatives?

_DarkAngel_
January 15th, 2006, 9:05 pm
I'm not sure if he'll go back to school or not but I'm in favor of him not going back.

Wimsey
January 15th, 2006, 10:11 pm
These might very well include more memories through which Harry can search for important clues (like, where did Voldemort learn to make Horcruxes?)

That's an easy one. Either from Grindlewald (not buyin' that), or from a book stashed in the Hiding Room feature of the Room of Requirement.

We have no reason to think that the Room of Requirement could provide such a book or that Voldemort even knew abou the room.

That makes somewhere in Europe (probably Eastern Europe) as the most probable place where Voldemort learned how to make a Horcrux. This information could well be in Dumbledore's memories, as he is the one who ran Grindelwald to ground.



Some of you are missing something about clues to Horcruxes. There is nothing else in Dumbledore's memory, it should be clear that the cave was the end of the road, the most remote and least likely place to have found.

We have no reason to think that there is nothing else to Dumbledore's memories. Aberforth will have them now. Also, JKR has told us that Harry knows more than he realizes from Dumbledore's instructons. Dumbledore has told Harry the type of place for which to look. From the perspective of plot and narrative, that is adquate.

Oh, and the Cave was far from the least likely place for a Horcrux to be. It was of personal importance to Voldemort: it was one of the first places that he tortured people with magic. Dumbledore basically told us to look for places like that.


It's Harry's memories that are important. As Ms. Rowling said, "... Dumbledore has given him some pretty valuable clues and Harry, also, in the course of previous six books has amassed more knowledge than he realizes. That's all I am going to say".

This is correct, but I think that you might misunderstand it. It is not Harry's memories of where he has been, but what Dumbledore has taught him about Voldemort and the way that Voldemort operates. Dumbledore also has taught Harry a lot about the differences between Harry and Voldemort: that will be key for the "final battle," because Harry cannot hope to overcome Voldemort by magic. Fully trained Aurors cannot hold a candle to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore can only fight Voldemort to a standstill. Instead, Harry has to rely on doing something that Voldemort will not expect.


And I can easily think of one simple way for Harry to find three Horcruxes quickly. I suppose that I should write an editorial.

Before you do, keep these things in mind.

Why did not Dumbledore do the same thing?
How many "fan-fictions" are involved? That is, how many things do you have to assume that Voldemort knew/could do or that Harry knows/can do that are not in the canon?
How many things does this "simple" way invoke that never have been done in the canon?

These are all complicating factors!


AAs if we didn't know that. So he has to learn somewhere, and leaving aside the sentimental issues, Hogwarts seems as good a place as any. Do you have any alternatives?

But you, yourself, quote JKR's comment that Harry knows more than he realizes. Harry cannot learn the things that Dumbledore did in the cave: Harry never has taken Arithmency or Runes. Even if he returned to Hogwarts, it is too late for that, and has been since 3rd year. Fortunately, Hermione can do those things.

To become an Auror, one needs years of schooling after Hogwarts. The best aurors cannot compete with Dumbledore, who did not think that he could overcome Voldemort. So, how can a stepping stone to becoming an Auror (Hogwarts) help Harry learn anything that he needs to know?

thewran
January 17th, 2006, 5:43 am
We have no reason to think that the Room of Requirement could provide such a book or that Voldemort even knew about the room.


If harry could conjure a room to train his DA members and MAlfoy could conjure a room to hide something, we havbe all the reason in the world that the Room of Requirement can give Harry, Ron and HErmione tools ,tricks and information, (both magical and historical) to find out about HOrcruxes and how to destroy them and also the founders of the school. I personally don't think that HArry is skilled enough as a wizard to defeat LV either, but i do believe that the combined efforts of hermione, ron and Harry is enough to destroy a horcrux.
Thus, HArry must return to HOgwarts as a 'base'. EVen Dumbledore returned to Hogwarts after long trips away. He, logically, does no need to be travelling around the world 24-7 under nightsky when he already knows about certain facts about LV like how LV only values trophies and that the hiding places are in signifcant places to LV's life. And to find out these places, all he has to do (though it won't be easy) is to ask/coax the right people to give him the location. Breaking the barriers is a different story all together.

Wimsey
January 17th, 2006, 6:44 am
If harry could conjure a room to train his DA members and MAlfoy could conjure a room to hide something, we havbe all the reason in the world that the Room of Requirement can give Harry, Ron and HErmione tools ,tricks and information, (both magical and historical) to find out about HOrcruxes and how to destroy them and also the founders of the school.

First, Harry knows how to destroy Horcruxes: break them. He's done it already, and Dumbledore broke the Ring.

Harry does not really need to much information about the Founders: he needs to know where the Horcruxes are, not what they are. That will be rather obvious when he finds them! Still, we are supposed to learn something about the Founders, aren't we?


Thus, HArry must return to HOgwarts as a 'base'. EVen Dumbledore returned to Hogwarts after long trips away.

Dumbledore also had a job and home there!


[QUOTE=thewranAnd to find out these places, all he has to do (though it won't be easy) is to ask/coax the right people to give him the location. Breaking the barriers is a different story all together.[/QUOTE]

Dumbledore was not able to do that. After all, not too many people know. Also, Harry is not the Legilimancy master that Dumbledore is.

Instead, do you not think that Regulus' "notes" and Dumbledore's memories will not account for the two hidden Horcruxes?

thewran
January 17th, 2006, 1:19 pm
First, Harry knows how to destroy Horcruxes: break them. He's done it already, and Dumbledore broke the Ring.
I agree that HArry knows how to destroy all the horcruxes, but it takes someone (or something for that matter) with uncommon magical skill or property as even Dumbledore did not return unscathed from destroying a horcrux. So, going back to Hogwarts would b an ideal place to perhaps pick up some kind of tip or counter -jinx on how to handle a certain defense mechanism.

[QUOTE=Wimsey]Harry does not really need to much information about the Founders: he needs to know where the Horcruxes are, not what they are. That will be rather obvious when he finds them! Still, we are supposed to learn something about the Founders, aren't we?
We are suppose to learn something about the founder as the possesion of the founders are currently Horcruxes, and perhaps their history will reveal the wherabouts of certain Horcrux (namely the cup and something of ravenclaw's) And wat better place to learn about each founder at Hogwarts as i'm pretty dure Hogwarts: a history may not go into depth about each founder.
Dumbledore also had a job and home there!But it still was a place where Dumbledore could call secure, so if HArry doesn't return to Hogwarts, where would he stay that is safe and secure and where he can also draw on depths of information? 12 Grimmauld place?

Dumbledore was not able to do that. After all, not too many people know. Also, Harry is not the Legilimancy master that Dumbledore is.

Instead, do you not think that Regulus' "notes" and Dumbledore's memories will not account for the two hidden Horcruxes?
Even though HArry is not a master at Legilimancy, he, Hermione and Ron have a knack of finding out information, for example in PS/SS where they basically put every bit of info that Hagrid gives them and predict wat they have to face to get to the stone.

And i don't get the question ur asking me about R.A.B and Dumbledore's memories... U mean that we already no wat two horcruxes are? Yeah, we don't no if the lockett is transfigured as in OotP we don't get enough information about the appearance of the outside of the lockett, and not i don't get the dumbledore memories bit, so can't answer your question properly:D . Sorry:lol:

Tarragon
January 17th, 2006, 10:39 pm
I agree that HArry knows how to destroy all the horcruxes, but it takes someone (or something for that matter) with uncommon magical skill or property as even Dumbledore did not return unscathed from destroying a horcrux. So, going back to Hogwarts would b an ideal place to perhaps pick up some kind of tip or counter -jinx on how to handle a certain defense mechanism.
Dumbledore says his injury was the result of his reflexes not being as good as they were--old age. Harry is extremely young when compared with Dumbledore (I believe the late headmaster had at least 130 years on Harry) and his reflexes, physically and magically, are therefore better than Dumbledore's (and let me put it on the record now--I am not saying that Harry is a better wizard than Dumbledore, only that his reaction time is much better because he is very young).

And it has already been stated that there is little to no information pertaining to Horcruxes at Hogwarts, so the type of counter-curse you suggest, should it exist, would have to be very powerful to deflect the curse placed on a Horcrux. A counter-curse such as that would be far beyond any level of skill required in a wizarding school, and as it's purpose relates to Dark magic (the reflection of it), the incantation is most likely no where to be found inside of Hogwarts.

I think people forget that wizards have been around for thousands of years, and before the creation of magical schools or even the written word, they had to pass down their knowledge most likely in practical demonstrations/situations, and they seemed to have done just fine, seeing as the knowledge is still around. My point is, there are other ways and places in which to learn magic than a school, so Harry does not have to be at Hogwarts to learn spells. As hard to comprehend as it may seem, magical knowledge does exist outside Hogwarts walls.

We are suppose to learn something about the founder as the possesion of the founders are currently Horcruxes, and perhaps their history will reveal the wherabouts of certain Horcrux (namely the cup and something of ravenclaw's) And wat better place to learn about each founder at Hogwarts as i'm pretty dure Hogwarts: a history may not go into depth about each founder.
Little is known about the four founders of Hogwarts; indeed, in six books the main extent of our knowledge on them reaches only as far as their names and the personality traits that they preferred in young witches and wizards. Again, the founders must have had lives outside of Hogwarts, at least before the school was created, so it is not that shocking to assume that information about them may exist in some form outside of Hogwarts castle. Perhaps this is where Godric's Hollow comes in to play. It bears the name of the most powerful of the four founders (Godric Gryffindor), so Harry my find a lead there about where to look next for Horcruxes or information on the founders (Note: This is just a thought--I have many of them and I do not believe every single one that bounces around in my mind. I am just tossing the idea out on to the table, make of it what you will).

But it still was a place where Dumbledore could call secure, so if HArry doesn't return to Hogwarts, where would he stay that is safe and secure and where he can also draw on depths of information? 12 Grimmauld place?
Er....Death Eaters managed to infiltrate Hogwarts despite all of the security measures taken to prevent any such occurences, which calls into question exactly how 'secure' Hogwarts really is (hint: Not much).

And what are these depths of information of which you speak? I thought it has been extablished that there is hardly any information to be had at Hogwarts? No? Well, okay then....

My take on the matter is that Harry's search will require him to travel around a lot, so I really do not think he will stay in one place for very long or have a 'home base.' The best way to avoid capture when on a mission such as this is to keep moving and try to stay as low on the suspicion radar as possible; it lessens the chance of capture. Duck & weave!

caryn_ca
January 17th, 2006, 11:18 pm
Harry might go back to school... but most probably spending most of his time hunting down the remaning Horcruxes... if not, how can he finish off Voldy? *unless Voldy is willing to have a truce... :D *

Mad_Ravenclaw
January 18th, 2006, 1:58 pm
Okay, just one question. Sorry if it's been discussed already.
I have no idea whether Harry will or won't return to Hogwarts to study (I do think he will return, though), and I have no ideas whether he will survive or not.
Now let's say he doesn't finish his studies, and he survives. He can kiss his auror carrier good-bye then, can't he? What will he be doing with himself? He's got money alright, but hell... he'll get bored before a week.
Don't you think he needs to graduate somehow? I'm not saying onea has to graduate to be happy/successful, etc... I mean look at the Twins, right.
But Harry himself doesn't know what to do with himself, apart maybe from auror or professional Quidditch player.
Can you double a year, at Hogwarts? (:lol:, do you imagine Harry returning for a second 7th year after killing Voldie!!!)

winky22
January 18th, 2006, 2:54 pm
Hogwarts must re-open! What about all the children to teach magic? Harry must have to go there to get some background on Voldie as well, maybe he won't go back as a student but i am sure he must go back at one point.

thewran
January 19th, 2006, 10:14 am
And it has already been stated that there is little to no information pertaining to Horcruxes at Hogwarts, so the type of counter-curse you suggest, should it exist, would have to be very powerful to deflect the curse placed on a Horcrux. A counter-curse such as that would be far beyond any level of skill required in a wizarding school, and as it's purpose relates to Dark magic (the reflection of it), the incantation is most likely no where to be found inside of Hogwarts.!
To destroy a horcrux, u have to break it, just like dumbledore cracked the ring and Harry stabbed the diary. Y Harry should go back to Hogswart is to learn something about defensive spells and their counter curses as i'm sure, each horcrux has its own magical defense mechanism. Its fair enough to say that HErmione already nos about them, but it would be useful if all 3 (ron, hermione and harry) had some knowledge on the counter-curses tot he defense mechanism. And at Hogwarts, i'm sure with knowledgable teachers like flickwick around, u have a source of knowledge that books can't provide.

Again, the founders must have had lives outside of Hogwarts, at least before the school was created, so it is not that shocking to assume that information about them may exist in some form outside of Hogwarts castle. Perhaps this is where Godric's Hollow comes in to play. It bears the name of the most powerful of the four founders (Godric Gryffindor), so Harry my find a lead there about where to look next for Horcruxes or information on the founders.
Yeah, i agree with u here, but still...

And what are these depths of information of which you speak? I thought it has been extablished that there is hardly any information to be had at Hogwarts? No? Well, okay then....

The information i spoke of is of the Founders themselve within Hogswart. I think Harry nos enough information about LV to identify Horcruxes from the various memories he has seen. And we already no that all u have to do is break a horcrux. Now, all he has to do is find location that has to do with the founders, and he doesn't have to find it in books, he can simply ask everyone who is still at Hogswarts. I still think (obviously) that Harry will return to stay at HOgswart, and i think it will b harder to break into hogswart the next year as they will probably give it top notch security, and we got to remember, LV doesn't raid a place every single night, rather he waits for the optune moment before strikking, like we've seen plenty of times in the series.

Hedwig50
January 19th, 2006, 8:57 pm
Remember back in CofS, the deathday party. Harry, Hermione and Ron went thru a form of a vail after being asked to do so by Nearly Headless Nick. There may be information to be obtained by, or of, the founders there. The mystery of the graveyard at Hogwarts has not yet been answered as well. There may be more to it. The Pensive and all the memories left in Dumbledores office. I hope Harry has access to all of those. Slughorn still hasen't told all he knows.

I hope after thier summer travels, they do decide to return to Hogwarts. It is home to Harry, allows some protection, and also still holds lots of information.

Witchykitty
January 19th, 2006, 10:05 pm
I really don't know what to think. For some reason I do think that Harry will go back to Hogwarts for a little while to say good-bye and all, but then hunt out for the other horcruxes. But, I don't know, maybe there will be a horcrux at the school, so that me be a reason he goes back.

Idabomb333
January 19th, 2006, 10:36 pm
The teachers were definitely leaning towards keeping the school open. The pensieve and the portrait of Dumbledore are there. Gryffindor's sword is there. Most of the characters we know of are there. Hogwarts is by far the setting we know the most about. The logic of 7 books doesn't make sense apart from the 7 years at Hogwarts. Assuming he lives through book 7, he'll want to have been at school so he can go on to be an auror. All of these are reasons to believe Harry will go back.

Now, there are several arguments as to why Harry CAN'T go back. People say he has too much horcrux hunting to do. I would argue that he doesn't know of enough other places to occupy a year looking for horcruxes elsewhere.

I also think he'll at least track down the real locket before school starts. I mean, it didn't take readers long to figure out that RAB is Regulus and Mundungus may have stolen the locket from Grimmauld Place. I don't think it'll take Harry and friends long either. He just hasn't put his mind to it yet by the end of HBP. With one horcrux down before the school year even starts, that cuts down on what he has to get done away from school.

There may also be reasons for him to think he can find a horcrux at Hogwarts. Besides the fact that horcruxes are likely to be artifacts from the founders, there's also the fact that Voldemort thought Hogwarts, and particularly the Chamber of Secrets, is a significant place. I can't help but wonder whether hiding a horcrux at Hogwarts was part of his reason for applying for the DADA teaching job. He would probably also think that the Chamber would be a safe place to hide a horcrux, because it's already protected from non-Parselmouths.

Here are the places I can think of that we know have significance to Voldemort:
1) The orphanage
2) The cave
3) Hogwarts/ Chamber of Secrets
4) The Riddle house/graveyard
5) The Gaunt house
6) Borgin & Burkes
7) Godric's Hollow
8) Possibly where his mother is buried? But we don't know where that is, do we?

Can anyone think of other places where he would want to hide a horcrux? That list doesn't seem like it would require THAT much looking. Dumbledore already found the cave and the Gaunt house. It also makes sense that it took Dumbledore a long time to find this particular cave, so searching might go faster for Harry.

Frankly, I'm not sure that even all of these will occur to Harry as places to look. At the end of HBP, the only place he's planning to go is Godric's Hollow. Assuming he gets there over the summer, where will he go next? Why not go back to Hogwarts? I don't think he'll feel compelled to stay there (unless he gets some sort of post mortem instructions from Dumbledore) once he has a reason to go somewhere else.

IgoRetla
January 19th, 2006, 11:32 pm
Can anyone think of other places where he would want to hide a horcrux? That list doesn't seem like it would require THAT much looking. Dumbledore already found the cave and the Gaunt house.

How about Gringott's? Ms Rowling has stated that it's the info in the last six books that Harry needs, and he certainly knows that Quirrell, with or without Voldemort, made his way into the depths. If the only place safer than Gringott's is Hogwarts (repeated again and again), why wouldn't Voldemort have a high security vault near Hogwart's and Sirius's?

ProfJS
February 2nd, 2006, 8:50 am
Originally Posted by aaron016 I think he will go back to Hogwarts. He has to figure out how to destroy Horcruxes and where they can be, and I think the best place for him to plan out his adventures and figure out how to complete them is at Hogwarts.
How can Hogwarts teach him how to destory Horcruxes? Nobody there knows anything about them, nor do the library book mention them. Also, Harry already has destroyed one, simply by breaking the object. (JKR is willing to answer this question, which pretty much means that we are supposed to know that answer already.)
As for where they are, that requires understanding Voldemort's past. Again, Hogwarts has nothing to offer him: few people there even know that Voldemort was born Tom Riddle.
Harry already has chosen to not return. He might visit, but his days as a student are done.
I'm in agreement with aaron16. JKR is on record multiple times as saying that there are 7 books for Harry's 7 years of education at Hogwarts. I don't see any reason to distrust JKR's public statements. So I expect Harry will be back at Hogwarts, and spend most of his time there, as is the case in every other book.

Harry is still in shock from Dumbledore's death at the end of HBP; I expect that a number of his plans will have to change.

taupimu
February 2nd, 2006, 12:53 pm
I'm sure that Harry will go back to Hogwarts but maybe not as a student. I think that Ron and Hermone will go back as students at least at the start. There are too many teachers with a wealth of knowledge about Harry's parents for him to completely ignore that source.

I don't think Harry will be doing his fighting alone and his biggest source of suppport have come from the students. Even if he is not a student, his help will come from Hogwarts.

NoNEWTS
February 3rd, 2006, 9:29 pm
I predicted that for book 6, the Slytherin's wouldn't return and Snape would freak out because no one would be sorted into Slytherin. I was wrong.

I've made an outline on how I think the next book should go:

Madam Maxime is selected as the new headmistress over McGonagall, because they need someone tough and experienced. Harry doesn't go back at the start of term, so Ron becomes Head Boy and quidditch captain, and also wears his Services to the School badge (currently in the trophy room). If Harry comes back it's just for a visit. Harry doesn't come back until the start of second term, after Christmas break. This is because he's done all he can to find and destroy 3 horcruxes by then.

2Cleva
February 3rd, 2006, 9:46 pm
Harry will return to Hogwarts ---- at the end of book 7 when he takes over as the new Defense against the Dark Arts teacher with the one year curse fully broken.

taupimu
February 4th, 2006, 2:37 am
We have had detailed descriptions of most of Harry's classes at Hogwarts. Each of his classes have been highlighted at some point execpt one. That is his Astronomy class. Unless having the students taking their exams when Unbridge attack Hagrid was the reason for that class then I think we will find out that the Astronomy class will be highlighted in the final book.

The fact that the Slytherine ghost (Bloody Baron) seems to like to rattle his changes on the Astronomy tower seems to be one of those bits of information which have more to it.

Therefore, I think that Harry will return to Hogwarts at least for a brief period of time but maybe not as a student.

Hocruxe7
February 4th, 2006, 2:53 am
Why would Harry say at the end of HBP that he is not going back to school, and then have him suddenly change his mind in the beginning of Book 7? That would be corny. HBP lead you to beleive he was going to leave school to go on his "grand search" for the hocruxes with Hermione and Ron. If he was going to go back to school, what would be the point of including at the end of HBP that Harry decided to leave school? It doesn't make sense.

Horax
February 4th, 2006, 3:52 am
I think that Harry, Hermione and Ron will not go back to Hogwarts. But, I do see a problem with that.

Voldemort is not an idiot and if he finds that Harry and Friends are running around the countryside looking for something. Well he is just crazy enough to figure that it might be the Hocruxes.

I see them appear to come back to school but in name only to keep Voldemort from figuring they are running around the countryside looking for you know what.

PhoenixSong27
February 4th, 2006, 5:47 am
i think something in the plot will make harry go back to hogwarts. let me tell ya, i'm not going to be happy if it isn't in the story at all, it's my favorite! lol. i agree that a horcrux might be in hogwarts. this is the "something in the plot" i was talking about. plus, i'd really like harry to become an auror.

mmhmmFred
February 4th, 2006, 5:56 am
I am so very glad he is leaving Hogwarts... it's been six flippin years! aah, don't get me wrong, it's home, but let's throw them out there in a different setting... maybe the real world! I have to admit if JKR hadn't of made it so he isn't going back I would be kinda draggin my feet to read the last one.

touchstone
February 4th, 2006, 6:24 am
Harry does not intend to return to Hogwarts we all know.

But can this really be true?

JK Rowling's own chats contradict this. Seven books/seven school years has always been the formula.

Also, her new quote from the contest on the Leaky Cauldron says "Ravenclaw will have their day". We'll hardly see much of Ravenclaw if he leaves school.

But perhaps most important at all is Voldemort's obsession with Hogwarts. Is there a better place to search for Hogwarts founder artifacts than the school himself? We know that he at least created one horcrux while at Hogwarts.

I certainly hope he returns. He is no where near ready to go head-to-head with any dark arts master. And, the school is a major part of the charm of the books for me. Of course, with Dumbledore gone alot of that charm will be missing...:no:
I think, if McGonagall becomes Head Mistress she will be able to convince Harry to return, they too have a special relationship. I also see Luna Lovegood playing a bigger part along with Neville, and of course Ron & Hermione, how they can all be together anywhere else--I just can't imagine.

Aicerno
February 4th, 2006, 10:27 am
Twenty three pages later; and it's time to post thoughts and reflections. This about the likelihood of Harry's returning to Hogwarts in relation to certain events that Albus chose to place in Harry's responsibility and no one elses.

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In regards to the horcrux issue--from what I recall of Halfblood Prince; Harry's murder at the age of one on October 31, 1981 was to be the center for Voldemort's sixth horcrux as he went about his process to assure immortality. The first three horcri (plural of horcrux) were Tom M. Riddle's diary, Morfin's ring, and the Slytherin Necklace (taken from Hepzibah who had bought it in Borgin and Burkes; held in the cave of the inferi and originally stolen by R.A.B.). Another horcrux is the Hufflepuff bowl (also stolen from Hepzibah). The Ravenclaw item could be in Hogwarts; or it could be the wand in Olivander's window.

Three people are missing who could be important clues:

Olivander and his wands.

Florean Fortescue (who shares the same surname as one of Hogwart's headmasters).

Amelia Bones (Whom Voldemort/Riddle killed personally despite her being in a thoroughly well-protected location--as Riddle found out in Goblet of Fire, one of his Horcri--the diary--and the basilisk of Slytherin had been destroyed by Harry Potter. Lucius Malfoy and Bellatrix were both involved in the MOM raid for the prophecy because at one time or another, they were both charged with the protection of this particular horcrux, and so Riddle charged them with that task to redeem themselves for the loss of the horcrux. While Lucius and Bella failed, Bella could count her self more fortunate because she had spent forteen years in Azkaban; whereas Lucius publicly denied his connection to Voldemort. I think Amelia was killed to make a replacement Horcrux for the diary at least).

At Hogwarts there are several items that Riddle/Voldemort would love to get his hands on for the purpose of turning into horcri; these are:

Gryffindor's sword.
The School Sorting Hat (which belonged originally to Godric Gryffindor).
Riddle's Award for Special Services to the School (for his blaming the opening of the Chamber of Secrets on Hagrid--which resulted in Hagrid being expelled, if not arrested).
Some object of Albus Dumbledore (a gryffindor who was notorious for not giving into Riddle; and indeed thwarting every attempt by Riddle to prove himselve bigger or better than everyone else).

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Now looking at the above items; quite a few (if not all of them) are most likely to be found in Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Riddle's reason for returning when he encountered Albus--was initially more about obtaining more items to make further horcri than to actually teach or recruit students for an army. The recruiting of students to his cause would probably have come later after he felt he had enough horcri to be protected from death.

A fourth missing person as relevant to the earlier list is Professor Sybil P. Trelawney. If she was captured in the Death Eaters' raid--not only was Albus killed... by another professor (even if the sole witness for it was Harry, Draco, Severus, and the death eaters)... but a professor physically removed from the premises would not make in most people's opinions for the definition of a safe school.

Problems with closing the school:

If the board of Governors does choose to close Hogwarts in light of Dumbledore's death; that will have to be kept from becoming common knowledge to Voldemort and company. If it does, then it will be a race for Harry to get to the school and either remove or destroy any items (listed above) that Voldemort may have already used as horcruxes or could use as horcruxes. We've already ascertained that the dark lord knows that at least one of his horcruxes has been destroyed and that all of the remainin horcri are possibly no longer safe. And so, Amelia's death was probably in response at least for the destroyed diary--as a replacement horcrux.

If Harry chooses not to return to school--the fact that it's closed and containing so many objects that Voldemort may find valuable (as horcri or for other usage)--the overt closing of the school will prevent his (Harry's) access to those items, as well as to the school's library, and probably guarantee that Riddle could quite easily get back into the chamber of secrets (if the way hasn't been permanently closed by now).

At the same time, Harry will not be able to find out if all of the teachers are accounted for (if indeed Trelawney was either kidnapped, or snuck out of school during the death eater raid and was later captured). This point will be a sticker because if she is, then Voldemort/Riddle can learn the content of the prophecy about him and Harry. And force a battle on Harry by using any of his friends for bait or even by attacking the school.

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The problems of attending school:

The adults in Harry's life are going to want to him to attend school; there's no getting around that. And while Hermione is the best person to have for running in-depth searches of the library at Hogwarts--even she has found it to be limiting. One has to know the right questions to ask in order for it to function, and so far of late, the only discovery she's made successfully is that Eileen Prince was Severus' mother. So she knows that she can only go so far in relying upon the library.

If the school opens, and Harry chooses to return to school... that will open up access to knowledge of the founders by the ghosts, as well as Dumbledore's portrait and pensieve, and ascertain whether the objects mentioned are still present or not. It will also make the library's resources available to Hermione--who would know best the strengths and limitations of the library itself; as well as to ascertain if anything was still being kept in the Chamber of Secrets.

The problem herein is that if the task proves difficult enough that Harry, Ron, and Hermione cannot complete the destruction of the horcruxes over the course of the summer; and Harry's not going to have a long summer to do that kind of searching in; even with his ability to apparate.

His birthday is July 31; and he will need to spend several weeks (if not a full month) with them from the time he returns to Privet Drive with Ron and Hermione to when he leaves in order to take full advantage of the protective spell his mother placed on him when she died before it ceases on his seventeenth birthday. So if he leaves Privet Drive prior to July 31, the protection may not be as effective. If he leaves on or after July 31, that doesn't leave a whole lot of time in the summer to dedicate to the search even with an apparition liscence (which he should be taking the test for).

And when it comes to breaking curses and protective charms for Gringotts; who better to ask than Bill Weasley himself? In the course of his time in Egypt Bill may have run across a horcrux or two and would be a good source of information on that subject.

Kingsley and Moody would probably know Aurors in Albania (I think one of the places that Voldemort learned some of his dark magic is in that area of Europe--which is where Quirrell was possessed; and then Voldemort then fleed again after Quirrell's death, prior to his rebirth in HP1994. So Albania right there is a number two suspect right after Hogwarts.

The other two places that require attention are Godric's Hollow and the Riddle Mansion in Little Hangleton. Riddle's mansion in that it is the home of Voldemort's father, and where his father lies buried; as well as the scene of his (Voldemort's) rebirthing. Godric's Hollow because of it's significance with Voldemort losing his physical body and a part of his soul because of the rebounding avada kedavra.

So Bill's wedding is obviously going to be the first place where Harry can get information regarding how to destroy horcruxes; as well as the myriad possibilities for potential horcri. At the same time, after Harry leaves Privet Drive... the Dursleys are no longer going to be safe from Voldemort--and that's going to be something that he has to deal with. Which means that in return for their protecting him (which gave a kind of shield over all of them); he's going to have to do something to protect them... and #12 Grimmauld place is just the place to give them temporary quarters, as well as serve Harry, Ron, and Hermione as a base camp in their search for the horcri.

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The other item at Hogwarts beyond the above, Is Horace Slughorn; whose memories may be more indepth than just the subject of Riddle learning about horcri from him. And Harry may need to explore that line of exploration further. If the school is open; then Slughorn obviously will probably return to Hogwarts as a teacher as he is now the only head of Slytherin house, as well as potions instructor/master. UNder the proviso that he was at the emergency meeting of Faculty that Minerva called right after the last Death Eater disappeared from the grounds following Albus' death. If he wasn't, who knows where he is.

The Defense Against the Dark Arts Slot is open now--and will need filling. There are three obvious people who may be able to teach it (because until Riddle is killed and/or destroyed permanently, the 'curse' on the position is still in effect). The first is Bill Weasley--again because of his work as a curse breaker for Gringotts; Remus Lupin reprising his role from third year, with Alastor Moody as a fill-in for the days falling on the full moon; or Alastor Moody himself (although at this point, the ministry will probably have brought him formally out of retirement to deal with the growing war with Voldemort and given him his old job back).

At the same time; the ministry hasn't given up on Harry acting as a poster boy for them. Between Molly, Arthur, Kingsley and Lupin finding out that he, Ron and Hermione don't plan on returning to school even if Hogwarts does reopen; people in the ministry are going to realize just what a blow they're going to receive--students leaving in droves, and then the boy-who-lived (who is also the one chosen to defeat Voldemort) decides to no longer attend following the headmaster's death...

The ministry will probably say something like this:

"Look Harry, as bad as things are, we really need you to go back to school. Dumbledore put a lot of time and energy into that school, and as you are his man through and through; it would be an insult to his memory if you didn't finish your schooling.

"About the Stan Shunpike thing; alright, we'll let him go. There are of course certain conditions that we would like met in return... the first being obviously your returning to school. However, from certain sources we understand that you harbor an interest on becoming an auror following school. If you go back to school, and finish your year; as well as tell people what a good job we're doing in the war against Voldemort... you'll be guaranteed a slot in the auror division. While you're at school; you have two choices. The first is be quidditch captain and head boy; or based on the review of your OWL exams, as well as from reports of a certain group called 'Dumbledore's Army'... teach the Defense Against the Dark Arts classes at Hogwarts."

Being the underhanded people the ministry seems to be; Percy will no doubt approach Ron with a variation on this; but with the intent to try to use Ron's jealousy to permanently split the trio--that is to say, if Harry decides to return and takes both the captaincy and headboy position that the hope is to encourage in Ron that Harry is stealling from Ron what is rightfully his.

Either way, while this presents Harry with an unusual degree of latitute to access things within the school--if he needs to go outside of Hogwarts, whether to Godric's Hollow or Albania amongst other places... either choice will impede his ability to hunt for the horcri to a degree unless he chooses to trust other people outside of the circle of himself, Ron, and Hermione. At the same time; while Riddle is aware that one of his horcruxes is gone--he may or may not be aware of just how at risk he actually is... the death of Amelia Bones seems to indicate that he is perfectly aware of this and trying to take active measures to prevent what Dumbledore and Harry are planning.

As the curse is still in operation over the DADA position; If Harry accepts that deal, that means that he will in part be forced to tell a lie--as everything is not well, and Hogwarts is by no means thoroughly safe (the other side of that coin is that with the departure of Draco, Severus, and possibly Trelawney too as well as the Death Eaters--Voldemort may not be willing to chance another assault on Hogwarts until after he's thoroughly defeated the Ministry of Magic, which means that now Hogwarts is really one of the safest places to be in England at the current moment).

iluvow
February 20th, 2006, 8:39 pm
How about Gringott's? Ms Rowling has stated that it's the info in the last six books that Harry needs, and he certainly knows that Quirrell, with or without Voldemort, made his way into the depths. If the only place safer than Gringott's is Hogwarts (repeated again and again), why wouldn't Voldemort have a high security vault near Hogwart's and Sirius's?
yeah, i also think thata the all the hiding places are where hes either been before or wheres hes planning on going ( aka godrics hollow). because of two things that jkr has said ( i dont have the exact quotes)
1.) that the book will probably be shorter than ootp. how can it be that short if he has to to go to like albania ( where alot of peopel think he'll ahve to go) if its going to be less than 870 pages?

2.) jkr has said that the reason ootp was so long is because she had to get harry places. i infered thatbthat this means that some of the places that we went in ootp are where horcruxes are hidden.

but back on topic, i think harry will go back becuase the last 6 books ahve alll been centered around hogwarts and its just be weird if the lasdt one wasnt. also, jkr has said that harry thinkshe's not goign back to hogwarts. i took this to mean, yeah hes going back

hermione8
February 20th, 2006, 8:43 pm
It is possible that he might go back to Hogwarts for sometime just before the battle or something like that. But I guess that he will visit godric's hollow first. I think that he will make sure that he does go there because as he said, that was where it had all started for him and that is where he will have to go back.

CleverBadger
March 29th, 2006, 6:47 am
Okay, I just don't concievably see HOW Harry can go back to school with all he has to do. I highly doubt that teachers and staff will just let him leave the grounds and go into Hogsmeade whenever he wants to apparate off to Albania to search for a horcrux. This puts Harry's life at risk, and puts Hogwarts at risk. When Dumbledore and Harry flew in on broomsticks, Dumbledore had to disable many of the protective charms in place. These would have to be disabled to allow Harry and Company to leave and enter, thus making it easier for Death Eaters to come in.

How is Harry going to have time (not to mention the desire and concentration) to do his NEWT year while having the task of destroying horcruxes and killing Voldemort over his head?

Two of the things that made life for Harry most interesting at Hogwarts are gone: Draco and Snape. I doubt another Death Eater entry to Hogwarts will take place, so who is Harry supposed to be at-odds with? He also has no Dumbledore, to convey important, life-altering messages of hope, no Fred and George to bring levity. I'm expecting the DADA teacher to be a character know, since JK has said that one of Harry's former classmates would come to teach at Hogwarts, and that's the only open position (I'll bet my hat that McGonagall stays Divination teacher in addition to headmistress) I'm guessing many of the students will be taken out of school due to the breach of security, and Dumbledore's death, which was the only assurance many parents had that their parents were not going to be Avada Kedavra'd at any given time.

So basically, Hogwarts has lost most of the things that made it interesting. Harry is growing up, and it's time for him to take the next stage of his journey. Harry is pretty much done with what he can learn in books. He's got to go about things for real now.

Also, Harry will not want to put more people at risk. At Hogwarts he is a liability. He is in the vicinity of hundred of innocent people. He's putting Ginny at risk if he stays there.

Harry has to be in too many other places. I'm not sure if I believe there is a horcrux at Hogwarts. I'm inclined to say no. There are only two horcruxes that we don't know the location of (the cup and an unknown). I'm guessing that Harry will find information as to their whereabouts in Grimmauld Place. I'll bet my hat one is Albania. The other I am unsure where it is, but it just does not seem like it's at Hogwarts. Especially not in that room of hidden things. I mean, even in Voldemort's time there must have been hundreds of hidden items. The room is accessible to anyone. Why would he go through such a good job of hiding the locket, and then just toss the other one into the room of requirement? I expect all of his horcruxes, except Nagini have powerful enchantments protecting them.

I think Harry will see the people he misses from Hogwarts during their breaks.

blackgem
March 29th, 2006, 9:33 am
But Jo said Harry would get his seven years of magical education

CleverBadger
March 29th, 2006, 9:47 am
But Jo said Harry would get his seven years of magical education

That doesn't necessarily mean institutionalized education. Harry will be learning loads on his quest for the horcruxes.

Kuro_Neko_1
March 30th, 2006, 2:20 am
Harry Potter without Hogwarts... just doesn't fit. Harry's training as a wizard at Hogwarts is was the series seemed to be entirely about. At first. When Harry said that he didn't plan on returning to Ron and Hermione, I was like "what the heck?! No!" Harry might go back and visit or something (though i'm not sure why he would), but I don't think he's going to attend his 7th year. He'll probably visit Godric's Hollow, find the Horcruxes, battle the Death Eaters and Voldy, and die in the process. Or maybe not. But I don't think he plans on returning to school. Fred and George didn't fully attend their last year either, so we know that such a thing is both possible and rather likely.

hunter95
March 30th, 2006, 3:00 am
Ok here is my take. Harry will not have to return as a student just to go to Hogwarts. Everyone he knows and loves will be there and could still be a safehaven for Harry, Ron and Hermione. So even though he will be traveling to find the Horcruxes he can now apparate, to Hogsmeade, so could return at any time that he needs to. So he can be both away but always have a place to call home.

XavierCroft
March 30th, 2006, 6:00 am
But won't it be exciting to see more of the wizarding world?! I, for one, am getting bored of the same old formula - Dursleys, four terms at Hogwarts, then back to the Dursleys - and can't wait to see how JKR handles the challenge of a radically different structure. I trust her implicitly; I just know she can pull it off!

The most important thing for Harry to do now is to find the Horcruxes and destroy Voldemort; education takes a definate backseat.


I have to disagree, Harry needs Occlumency!!! Which means some sort of education. If Harry takes your advice he'll be dead the first Death Eater he meets, (he did okay on the run in the DOM, but one on one with Bellatrix he wasn't doing well at all). I'm not a big fan of Snape, but at the end of book six Snivellus could wipe the floor with Harry with his eyes closed. And Voldemort's more powerful than Snape.

lexlove1
March 30th, 2006, 6:29 am
Honestly, I tihnk Harry will return to Hogwarts, but not to attend school. For some reason, I see the CoS making a major comeback in the last book. Ultimately, I believe this is where the final battle will take place.

ikuko
March 30th, 2006, 6:44 am
Logically, your statements are equivalent to the following argument:
Sometimes it rains on days that begin sunny;
It is sunny this morning;
Ergo, we have evidence that it will rain this morning

Of course, a sunny morning is not evidence that it will rain. The only thing that we can state is that we cannot preclude the idea that it might later cloud up and rain.

The same is true for your statements. None of this is evidence that he will return to Hogwarts: we can only state that Harry might change his mind. However, we have zero evidence that he will: prior cases are not evidence that he will change his mind this time, only an indication that (like a late day shower) it can happen.
Perhaps, I was not clear enough. My refutal of your point was not by induction, but by proving that YOUR argument did not have power of prediction. Look what you said:
Harry said that he will not return. Ergo, he will not.
This is what I answered:
Harry have expressed intentions at the end of the books before. So far, they did not come true. Ergo, your argument that intention is a canon evidence does not work.
Simply put:
You said: X=>Y
I said: So far, we had cases when X=/=>Y, but never a case when X=>Y. It does not in itself mean that X=/=>Y always; it only means that you can not use X as an argument that Y will follow.


Indeed, we can make the statement more exact and damage your case further by considering the fact that all the examples we have are that Harry sometimes changes his mind about petty things. Hunting for Horcruxes is not petty. All of HBP was about training Harry how to do this. Well, now he is trained. We have zero examples of him changing his mind about something this important.I am sorry; but the distinction of petty and important things is subjective. Examples that I brought (war, self-protection) I can not see as petty. Besides, your statement is not true. Harry DID change his mind about important things. He changed his mind about Sirius (from wantiing to kill him to regarding him as one of the dearest people). He changed his view of his father. Same goes for Snape, several times.

Your other examples simply are not relevant. Yes, Harry sometimes is wrong about what other peple will do: here Harry has to be wrong about what he will do in a major situation. Ditto for Harry thinking that he would not get over Sirius is irrelevant: that is what people always feel after the death of a love one. Then they get over it. (Rowling just gave an interview about that.) This was about Harry not knowing how feelings work; well, now he knows.It is again your personal opinion that my examples are irrelevant. The fact is solid canon: a change took place. Harry still has a lot to learn about feelings and his role in the war.

Now, true evidence would be something that Harry says after his pronouncement that indicates that he is reconsidering (which does not exist), or something from JKR indicating that Harrymight reconsider. As yet, we have no evidence that Harry is reconsidering. Indeed, we do not even know if Hogwarts will be open: that is left as an open question!
No, it would not. My argument (that JKR never indicated development of the plot in the future book through Harry's expressed intentions in the previous one) still stands solid. To accept this statement would be to deny a canon fact. There will be plenty of time to change his mind in the beginning of the next one.

Nope. She said 7 books, one for each year of Hogwarts (a 7 year school). That says nothing about Harry attending all 7 years. Moreover, she made this statement before she ripped the rug out from under us by introducing a quest for Horcruxes. She hardly could tell us then what she was saving for the climax of the book: that Harry would be spending the last book scouring the world for Voldemort's defense system! (It would have given away just a little too much.)She sauid many times that she had all books planned in major outline for years. Horcruxes are not a minor plot point, it's central in the series. To say that she simply changed her mind is to say that she lied.

Who said that Harry is even going to live to become a qualified wizard? Harry has the qualifications that he needs to hunt Horcruxes. If he survives, then he'll probably be able to ace his NEWT's if he ever takes them.All she said was :
"there will be seven years at wizard's school, then Harry is a fully qualified wizard and it is then that he's allowed to use magic outside school. So, you'll see him into his final year at Hogwarts. The final chapter of the seventh book is written. "
Right here: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/0799-booklinks-omalley.html
Is there any other interpretation?

We will learn more about the Founders, yes, but not about anyone else at the school. Of course, Harry can do that without being a student. Indeed, 6 years there and he learned very little about them. In fact, he might not even need Hogwarts to do this.We will learn about teachers families, about Lily, about Luna, about Ginny's powers... Not only Hogwarts. It would be impossible to do outside of school.


Well, he has to travel (which he would not be able to do as a student, by the way). Harry will interact with people as he encounters them. For example, he will interact with people at Bill's wedding, and he will interact with people who will both try to dissuade him from leaving Hogwarts AND pester him to tell them what he is doing. Mrs. Weasley in particular will be keen on that, and the ministry might want to know what Harry is doing. And I said that so far he had no problem travelling, and since he will be qualified for apparation in summer, there is absolutely no way to stop him from waklkibng few steps away from the grounds and getting wherever within a moment.

According to the canon, students are not allowed to be out of their common rooms after hours, they are permitted to be outside of the castle after particular hours, and they are not allowed to leave the school grounds without permission.

So, here is the logic:
Hunting Horcruxes or popping in willy-nilly on Grimmauld Place will require extensive trips outside of Hogwarts;
Students at Hogwarts are not allowed to leave school grounds without permission;
The strict McGonagal will not give permission without good reason and Harry won't tell her what he is doing;
Ergo, being at Hogwarts would severely restrict Harry's access to Grimmauld Place and his hunt for the two hidden Horcruxes.

So, Harry cannot just head back to Grimmauld Place. You might question the soundness of the premises, but they are all based on the canon.
I am surprised that you accused me in following fanfiction ideas and then offering such inventions. There is no indications that Harry will need to go to G12 "willy-nilly",if at all. I believe he will go there a few times, but why would he need to pop in and out? As to the permission argument, this is silly. McGonagall direct orders did not stop Harry in his first year, when he knew nothing of magic. How can they stop a powerfull and apparating wizard? Harry always broke the rules. How do you see it possible that he will start obeying them now? What real tools has the school to restrict him?

As for the library, why could not Harry revisit it? Also, what really could be there? Dumbledore surely combed it already, and even Hermione could not find anything relevant there. This is an assumption. Fact is, the library is the only sourse of knowledge Harry has now. I am NOT using it as an evidence, only as a common-sense argument, rather indication than proof.

Harry broke school rules ONCE to do that. He cannot repeatedly break school rules, especially with McGonagal so keen to learn what he is doing. I am not sure we read the same books. Harry broke rules in every book, numerous times. This is not even an argument, this is an outright canon denial.

So, this is far from a false statement. The restrictions of being a student would greatly impede Harry's search for the Horcruxes. The classes cannot teach him anything: Dumbledore himself did not know everything that Harry needs to learn, and the rest of Hogwarts has less information about Voldemort's past than Dumbledore had.Being in school can (in opinion of the Order members) protect him. His being in school can protect the school. The plot set that Voldemort himself will be in school, his intention to do so was expressed beyond clear. Warning that no new characters will be introduced indicates that no significant amount of time will be spent OUTSIDE of the school.

You have the quote of Occam razor in your signature. Why not use it? If there is only one Harry's statement against a wealth of evidence to the contrary, and proof that Harry's statements of intent are not reliable, what is a more logical way to go: to assume that Harry will change his mind, or that every statement of JKR, every evidence in canon is a lie?

esoteric
March 30th, 2006, 12:09 pm
The pensieve...Dumbledore put memories in it right before he and Harry left to look for the locket. Knowing how dangerous the trip would be, Dumbledore saved his most valuable memories in the pensieve. Harry will almost definitely return to use it.

Hedwigfan
March 30th, 2006, 2:00 pm
I think that Harry is going to have to return to Hogwarts because I feel that the school holds many secrets and information that Harry is going to need. Actually I think that many of the answers lie there. It has been a sort of central point for so much and all the characters were there at one time or another. It proved in CoS that it has secrets and I think there are probably more.

TBH I felt that Harry was a tad egocentric at the end of HBP when he said he wasn't coming back. He really isn't ready and doesn't know enough to go off on his own.

HpPygmyPuff
March 30th, 2006, 2:08 pm
I think Harry is going back to Hogwarts, but not right after the summer, but maybe before or after christmas... Hogwarts is his home ....Hogwarts have a lot of secrets that (I think) will be necessary for Harry on his way to kill Voldemort.

Wimsey
March 30th, 2006, 5:19 pm
I said: So far, we had cases when X=/=>Y, but never a case when X=>Y. It does not in itself mean that X=/=>Y always; it only means that you can not use X as an argument that Y will follow.

This is false. We have many times seen Harry stick to his decisions. When Harry becomes obsessed with something, he sticks to his guns; we saw this especially in HBP and OotP.

The Harry painted at in HBP is determined

So, "If Harry is determined, then Harry follows through" >> 0. We cannot say it is 1.0. However, you need it to be 0, because your argument relies on Harry saying one thing to be evidence that he will do the opposite.


It is again your personal opinion that my examples are irrelevant. The fact is solid canon: a change took place. Harry still has a lot to learn about feelings and his role in the war.

We need to compare like and like. This is called a control.

Also, Harry knows his role in the war. It is to seek out the remaining Horcruxes. Dumbledore essentially charged him with this task. We have seen that Harry will not include the Ministry or the Order: he will follow Dumbledore's instructions to keep this secret.


, it would not. My argument (that JKR never indicated development of the plot in the future book through Harry's expressed intentions in the previous one) still stands solid. To accept this statement would be to deny a canon fact. There will be plenty of time to change his mind in the beginning of the next one.

The "canon fact" is that nothing is carved in stone. Sure, he could change his mind: but there is no evidence that he will. Harry usually sticks to his guns, and we need to see some indication that he is wavering. There is none at the end of HBP.

Again, this is the sunny morning. We cannot rule out rain: but the immediate evidence is against it.


And I said that so far he had no problem travelling, and since he will be qualified for apparation in summer, there is absolutely no way to stop him from waklkibng few steps away from the grounds and getting wherever within a moment.

Under current security, nobody can leave the grounds without one of the teachers opening it. So, yes there is somthing stopping him.


I am surprised that you accused me in following fanfiction ideas and then offering such inventions. There is no indications that Harry will need to go to G12 "willy-nilly",if at all. I believe he will go there a few times, but why would he need to pop in and out?


None of these are inventions. Grimmauld Place offers a potential haven: if the secret of the Order applies to Harry staying there (which it might not). We do not know this, but it the original topic of conversation. We also have good reason to think that it is the residence of RAB, and we have visual evidence that Slytherin's Locket was there.

We know that McGonagal wants to know what Harry is doing, and we know that she was miffed that he would not tell her.


As to the permission argument, this is silly. McGonagall direct orders did not stop Harry in his first year, when he knew nothing of magic. How can they stop a powerfull and apparating wizard?

Harry cannot leave Hogwarts' grounds without someone lifting the protective spells these days. So, he cannot just walk out and apparate, can he, unless he gets permission from a .

Harry always broke the rules. How do you see it possible that he will start obeying them now? What real tools has the school to restrict him?

Well, for one, it requires a teacher to open the gates to get out these days. We know that the old secret entrances that he could use in PoA now are guarded.


This is an assumption. Fact is, the library is the only sourse of knowledge Harry has now. I am NOT using it as an evidence, only as a common-sense argument, rather indication than proof.

The library contains nothing about Voldemort's personal history. That is the information Harry needs, as that will tell him where the two hidden Horcruxes are.

Harry has two other sources of information: 1) Dumbledore's artifacts; 2) Regulus' artefacts. Of course, Harry has to discover the latter.

I am not sure we read the same books. Harry broke rules in every book, numerous times. This is not even an argument, this is an outright canon denial.

You misunderstand. First, Harry breaks rules in singular cases. However, the issue here is impeding his quest. Could Harry find a way to break the rules? Possibly. But why waste the time? Harry has to unearth a lot of information about Voldemort's past. He needs access to Dumbledore's possessions (which will almost certainly be with Aberforth, Albus' only known surviving relative). He needs to be able to apparate freely to different places, which he cannot do while a student.


Being in school can (in opinion of the Order members) protect him.

What do the Order members have to do with it? They have no say over Harry, as he is a legal adult. Harry has decided to follow Dumbledore's order and not tell anybody else what he is doing, so they will not "understand" why Harry is doing what he is doing.

His being in school can protect the school. The plot set that Voldemort himself will be in school, his intention to do so was expressed beyond clear. Warning that no new characters will be introduced indicates that no significant amount of time will be spent OUTSIDE of the school.

This does not follow. Indeed, shouldn't

You have the quote of Occam razor in your signature. Why not use it? If there is only one Harry's statement against a wealth of evidence to the contrary, and proof that Harry's statements of intent are not reliable

Again, what you need is demonstration that when Harry says "I will do A", then he always does "not A." This is far from the case.


what is a more logical way to go: to assume that Harry will change his mind, or that every statement of JKR, every evidence in canon is a lie?

So, is every time that Harry said "I will do A" and he did A a lie of some sort?

The end of HBP has Harry resolving to go forth. Unless that is a lie, then that is what Harry will do. The fact that Harry occassionally changes his mind only means that this is a possibility; it still is improbable.

As for Occam's razor, I am following it. You are violating it by using exceptions as generalities. Harry changing his mind is the exception, not the rule.

Ace247
March 30th, 2006, 5:52 pm
i think it would be hard to place harry in a setting if he left school. I mean he's not going to live at the leaky cauldron or the burrow!

ikuko
March 30th, 2006, 7:39 pm
This is false. We have many times seen Harry stick to his decisions. When Harry becomes obsessed with something, he sticks to his guns; we saw this especially in HBP and OotP.Not at all. Harry DOES stick to his guns sometimes. And sometimes he does not. In fact, he virtually NEVER correctly predicted the future development at the end of the previous book. Therefore, you can not use "he said it himself" as evidence. No, the fact that he said it does not, in itself, eliminates any possibility of it. It simply is irrelivant either way. Based SOLELY on his words, it is impossible to argue one way or another. This is the ONLY thing I have ever said on this particular issue.


The Harry painted at in HBP is determined

So, "If Harry is determined, then Harry follows through" >> 0. We cannot say it is 1.0. However, you need it to be 0, because your argument relies on Harry saying one thing to be evidence that he will do the opposite. No, I do not need it to be 0. (In fact, I do not think it is. There is a tiny chance that he will not return at all, a small chance that he will spend only short amount of time there, and more than 85% chance that the majority of the time in book 7 he will spend in Hogwarts). All I need is to show that it is not 1, and in reality it is not even 0.5. It is you who has to prove that it is 1.0 because it is your ONLY canon argument.



We need to compare like and like. This is called a control.Reasonable control. No two events are exactly alike. If properly motivated, you can discount any similarities. In fact, you can claim that you are personally immortal because no other person who ever lived and proved to be mortal is exactly like you.

Also, Harry knows his role in the war. It is to seek out the remaining Horcruxes. Dumbledore essentially charged him with this task. We have seen that Harry will not include the Ministry or the Order: he will follow Dumbledore's instructions to keep this secret. How does it argue either way?

The "canon fact" is that nothing is carved in stone. Sure, he could change his mind: but there is no evidence that he will. Harry usually sticks to his guns, and we need to see some indication that he is wavering. There is none at the end of HBP. Of course there is. Did you read the quote I gave you?

Again, this is the sunny morning. We cannot rule out rain: but the immediate evidence is against it.Nor are we going to rule it out. We just think that probability of rain on a sunny morning is less than on gloomy and overcast one. Even if Granpa's joints did ache yesterday. You, however, insist that rain WILL be, despite all the evidence.


Under current security, nobody can leave the grounds without one of the teachers opening it. So, yes there is somthing stopping him.Quote on this, please. If 13-years old Harry found a way to leave despite dementors, for no better reason than having fun in Hogsmeade, what will keep him inside at 16?

None of these are inventions. Grimmauld Place offers a potential haven: if the secret of the Order applies to Harry staying there (which it might not). We do not know this, but it the original topic of conversation. We also have good reason to think that it is the residence of RAB, and we have visual evidence that Slytherin's Locket was there.Interesting. None of this is an evidence, only assumptions. If we are talking assumptions, I can give you much more than this FOR Harry's return. And yet, I stick to canon, and it is you who goes into "potentials".

We know that McGonagal wants to know what Harry is doing, and we know that she was miffed that he would not tell her. Now this is rediculous. So did Dumbeldore, so did Umbridge, why would McGonagall suddenly have more luck? Harry spent too much time with Dursleys to consider authority unquestionable. BTW, it was McGonagall he had to disobey in the first year.

Harry cannot leave Hogwarts' grounds without someone lifting the protective spells these days. So, he cannot just walk out and apparate, can he, unless he gets permission from a

Well, for one, it requires a teacher to open the gates to get out these days. We know that the old secret entrances that he could use in PoA now are guarded. . Really? Canon, please.

The library contains nothing about Voldemort's personal history. That is the information Harry needs, as that will tell him where the two hidden Horcruxes are. Library contains records of the time of LV rule and the first war; it contains traces of his movements before attack on Potters, such as old newspapers; it contains invaluable information about magical methods.

Harry has two other sources of information: 1) Dumbledore's artifacts; 2) Regulus' artefacts. Of course, Harry has to discover the latter.And two months of summer will be insufficient for that why?

You misunderstand. First, Harry breaks rules in singular cases. However, the issue here is impeding his quest. Could Harry find a way to break the rules? Possibly. But why waste the time? Harry has to unearth a lot of information about Voldemort's past. He needs access to Dumbledore's possessions (which will almost certainly be with Aberforth, Albus' only known surviving relative). He needs to be able to apparate freely to different places, which he cannot do while a student.A pure assumption. First, it does not matter that he breaks rules on case-to case basis. He still does it all the time. Meaning, he will search for horcruxes on case-to case basis.
Second. About waste of time. There is NO place that is particularly designed for his purpose. And G12 is not much better. Yes, it is quite likely that Locket MIGHT be still in G12; but why was there a scene with Dung selling Sirius' stuff? If all Harry needs is to realise what he is looking for, he can do it from anywhere. Remember, your argument that Dumbeldore could not find all answers in the library also works against G12: it was Order headquarter, for goodness sake; Dumbeldore spent more time there than Harry has in the last book. What, Dumbeldore did not know what to look for? Well, same goes for the library.
So, G12 MIGHT contain a locket. And, Harry is his own master there. We have two very weak reasons. The first is weak because to retrieve the locket, if it is stiill there, Harry only needs a day at most; second, being your own master includes a VERY time consuming task of taking care of your food, cleaning? laundary and groceries Harry is spared in Hogwarts. Now, lets compare amount of time you need to sneak out of school on a rare occasion and total time you need to spend taking care of everyday needs without much experience? The lessons (Harry is taking all the courses he needs to become an auror? all of it necessary for his task) can not possibly be a waste of time.

What do the Order members have to do with it? They have no say over Harry, as he is a legal adult. Harry has decided to follow Dumbledore's order and not tell anybody else what he is doing, so they will not "understand" why Harry is doing what he is doing.True. Don't you just contradict your own statement that Harry will not be able to get a permission out of school?

Again, what you need is demonstration that when Harry says "I will do A", then he always does "not A." This is far from the case.Again, I do not. All I need is to show that Harry's saying "I will do A" has no effect on A actually being done. This already destroys your only argument.

So, is every time that Harry said "I will do A" and he did A a lie of some sort?
No. It only means that he expressed an intention that he might or might not follow through. Just liek when he said he will make an effort in occlumancy, he did intent to, but was not able to do so. In short, when he said "I will do A" on some occasions, he did A. But in some, incidently many of those that happened at the end of a book, he didn't. Therefore, his expressed intention is NOT an evidence, but merely an expression of intent.

The end of HBP has Harry resolving to go forth. Unless that is a lie, then that is what Harry will do. The fact that Harry occassionally changes his mind only means that this is a possibility; it still is improbable. Well, this is your evaluation. Words of JKR disagree with you. Why would it be any less probable than changing his intention to hunt down Sirius?

As for Occam's razor, I am following it. You are violating it by using exceptions as generalities. Harry changing his mind is the exception, not the rule.Sorry, I only used canon facts and interview quotes. You used assumptions and subjective statements ("Harry never changes his mind; it does not count when he does. G12 MIGHT be usefull; Hogwarts will not because I do not want it to). If numerous exceptions exist, they are not exceptions. Especially since you were not able to provide any evidence that the "rule" (Harry ALWAYS does what he intended) exists at all. This is exactly the Occam razor: do not invent rules that complicate situation if you do not have to.

Chel
March 30th, 2006, 8:27 pm
:nc:
Could you, please, write shorter posts?????:sad:
It takes an hour to read it all... Have pity... Now I'm just too tired to write anything else... :upset:
Maybe Harry will come to Hogwarts but not stay there for long (he can just leave if he wants)...
That's all I have to say... :(

Fuelpagan
March 30th, 2006, 11:03 pm
I have read both your arguments ikuko and Wimsey and I come to one conclusion...My Head Hurts!:upset:

But sorry ikuko I think I will need to agree with Wimsey. Unless you can state a situation where Harry says he'll do A and does not A I don't see how you can show Harry coming back to Hogwarts as a student.
But I do agree with you ikuko on other points.
Library contains records of the time of LV rule and the first war; it contains traces of his movements before attack on Potters, such as old newspapers; it contains invaluable information about magical methods.
I do think there are some important pieces of the puzzle still at Hogwarts that Harry will need to visit there. We already have evidence from JKR interviews for that. But as far as the library at Hogwarts I think Hermione is much more suited to do Harry's research and I think she would be glad to help in that respect.
Under current security, nobody can leave the grounds without one of the teachers opening it. So, yes there is somthing stopping him. We already know how Harry can get into Hogwarts around the security. Buy the other vanishing cabinet.

Ok now I am going to go run and hide.:D

k4r6000
March 30th, 2006, 11:43 pm
He might return at Hogwarts at some point briefly, likely to gather some information, but his days as a Hogwarts student are done. It is obvious what he wants to do, because he states it as such at the end of HBP. He's going to go on a journey to find the Horcruxes, destroy them, and defeat Voldemort. This is the task that Dumbledore gave him. The only way he'd ever go back as a student is if he was forced to, but by September he will legally be an adult and able to do what he wants, so that isn't a viable option.

But the big issue is that the main plot has been already set up as being the search for the Horcruxes, and will (and should) remain so as the entire series has been building to this. Harry going back to Hogwarts (unless his journey takes him there) prevents that plot from moving forward, so that obstacle will have to be removed, which it was at the end of HBP.

Nicole
March 31st, 2006, 12:03 am
It's hard to imagine Harry returning for a regular school year when Rowling has written the last quidditch match...in HBP.
MA: You said that during the writing of book six something caused you fiendish glee. Do you remember what that was?

JKR: Oh, god. [Long silence as Jo thinks.] What was it? It wasn't really vindictive [laughter] – that was more of a figure of speech. I know what I've enjoyed writing – you know Luna's commentary during the Quidditch match? [Laughter.] It was that. I really enjoyed doing that. Actually I really enjoyed doing that.

You know, that was the last Quidditch match. I knew as I wrote it that it was the last time I was going to be doing a Quidditch match. To be honest with you, Quidditch matches have been the bane of my life in the Harry Potter books. They are necessary in that people expect Harry to play Quidditch, but there is a limit to how many ways you can have them play Quidditch together and for something new to happen. And then I had this moment of blinding inspiration. I thought, Luna’s going to commentate, and that was just a gift. It’s the kind of commentary I’d do on a sports match because I'm — [laughs]. Anyway yeah, it was that.Underlining mine.

Rell
March 31st, 2006, 12:08 am
It's hard to imagine Harry returning for a regular school year when Rowling has written the last quidditch match...in HBP.
That doesn't mean that Harry won't go back for part of the year, or quidditch will be banned as it involves too much unsupervised outdoor time, or Harry might be in and out. Or maybe Harry will mature enough to go to school, but spend former recreation time doing things like looking for horcruxes.

ikuko
March 31st, 2006, 12:27 am
I have read both your arguments ikuko and Wimsey and I come to one conclusion...My Head Hurts!:upset:

[FONT=Verdana]But sorry ikuko I think I will need to agree with Wimsey. Unless you can state a situation where Harry says he'll do A and does not A I don't see how you can show Harry coming back to Hogwarts as a student
With pleasure. Harry said in PoA that he was going to hunt Sirius down. He changed his mind. Harry said that he will make more effort on occlumency. He did not. Harry said that he is not going to teach DADA. He agreed a week later. Harry promised Dumbeldore to do his best to learn about Slughorn's secret. He did not until Dumbeldore refused to give him any more lessons. Harry said to Vernon that he was leaving. He changed his mind in 5 minutes after he received a letter. Need more? These were from top of my head.

Queen_Beruth
March 31st, 2006, 12:52 am
He won't go back. Dramatically, it would be a pitiful step backwards. He has to move forward.

And Rowling is obviously sick of Hogwarts, Quidditch, classes - the whole kit and kaboodle.

Wimsey
March 31st, 2006, 1:37 am
With pleasure. Harry said in PoA that he was going to hunt Sirius down.

Yes, because Harry learned that Sirius was not the bad guy. So, something comparable has to happen here: he needs to learn that it is not worthy hunting down Horcruxes.

Harry said that he will make more effort on occlumency. He did not.

Not really: Harry's resolve never was really there. He was too curious about the dream and too distrustful of Snape.

Harry said that he is not going to teach DADA. He agreed a week later.

Yes, but the idea immediately took seed with him. He never resolved to not do it. Here, Harry has a fire lit under him to destroy Voldemort. Harry wound up with the same fire (to a lesser degree) and went ahead and taught DADA.

A better example would be if Harry decided to teach and then changed his mind. However, once Harry resolves to do something, he sticks to it barring a drastic change in his understanding.


Harry promised Dumbeldore to do his best to learn about Slughorn's secret. He did not until Dumbeldore refused to give him any more lessons.

This is not quite correct. Part of the problem was that Harry was obsessed with something else at this time: uncovering Draco's plans. Harry clung to this tenaciously throughout the book.

Harry also did keep trying to find ways to talk to Slughorn: he simply did not have a clue how to do it after his very clumsy first effort blew it. He tried staying behind in classes, etc. Until he got the brain-wave (from Ron)


Harry said to Vernon that he was leaving. He changed his mind in 5 minutes after he received a letter. Need more? These were from top of my head.

Yes, so we need some equivalent of the letter to tell Harry that hunting Horcruxes actually is not important.

Again, what you have presented are faulty inductive conclusions. Just because Harry sometimes changes his mind, we can conclude only that the existential statement "Harry will change his resolve when presented with new data" is true. Your argument requires the universal statement, "Harry always changes his resolve" to be true for Harry resolving something to be evidence that he will do the opposite. As I wrote above, you have done the equivalent of showing that just because it is sunny in the morning, we cannot rule out rain in the afternoon.

Moreover, all of your "evidences" are "It began sunny (Harry wants to kill Sirius) and then clouded up with a drop in barometer (Harry is made aware that Pettigrew might have been to blame)." Now, the real evidence for rain is not the first part (sunny data, Harry's initial resolve) but the last part (change in atmospherics, Harry's initial assumptions are falsified). What the weather was like in the morning actually is irrelvant for predicting the rain at 3pm: it is the weather at 2 that is important. The evidence that Harry will not return to Hogwarts will be him learning that his assumptions are not sound, i.e., that hunting Horcruxes is not important.

And, of course, it forgets all of the sunny days that began and ended sunny.


He won't go back. Dramatically, it would be a pitiful step backwards. He has to move forward.

And Rowling is obviously sick of Hogwarts, Quidditch, classes - the whole kit and kaboodle.

In addition, HBP was pretty obviously written as a farewell to Hogwarts. There was a lot of slightly sentimental "last look" presentation to it. And, of course, JKR would be committing literary suicide by completely undermining the ending of the penultimate book and undermining the protagonist's character.

These are, of course, both independent of the plot, but the nevertheless are indications that the school days are done.


Of course, JKR's 1999 quote makes me wonder: one scenario has been that Harry will return to Hogwarts after the story, and we will just read about it in passing in the epilogue. That would make JKR's statement strictly correct and very ironic. She does lover her irony.

However, there is no reason to think that she was being entirely truthful. Prior to HBP she could not say anything but what she said: otherwise, she would have given away too much.

godricsword
March 31st, 2006, 1:57 am
For myself, I keep going back to the question "what does Harry need in order to defeat Voldemort in the end?" A couple things come to mind.
1) Occlumency - from a competent teacher
2) DD's pensieve and whatever memories Dumbledore placed in it before leaving for the cave (on a side note what will McGonagall discover/find out about the whole thing now that she's head and has the run of the office?)
3) Info about Horcruxes and how to destroy them--IMHO the only one who can tell him this is Slughorn.
Which means that he's going to be spending time at Hogwarts irregardless if the school is open or not. Personally I don't see the school as being open, or if it is then there will be VERY few students there taking classes, which means no Quidditch and the whole thing will be different.

Magi
March 31st, 2006, 2:01 am
JKR herself said we'll "see him into his final year at Hogwarts". Meaning Harry's final year at Hogwarts.

I think that somewhere at the beginning of Book 7, Harry will be convinced to return to Hogwarts.

Returning to Hogwarts has some excellent advantages: It makes it appear that Harry and his friends are being completely normal. Leaving Hogwarts when the school is open, tells the student body and perhaps the wizarding public that they are up to something -- obviously hunting Voldemort. Hogwarts contains one of the most extensive, if not the most extensive, repository of magical knowledge. Almost everything they need to know, they can find here. The sources of knowledge are not limited to books in the library: there are also staff, ghosts, and even the portraits of old headmasters, including that of Dumbledore himself. Harry and his friends still need to develop more magical skills to improve their chances of survival against Voldemort and the Death Eaters. The final unknown Horcrux may be a former possession of Ravenclaw. If so, then Hogwarts is logically the ideal place to begin a search for Ravenclaw's relics.

k4r6000
March 31st, 2006, 2:16 am
The problem is that there isn't much that Harry will be able to learn at Hogwarts itself, certainly not enough that warrants a whole school year (or even semester) there.

OotP makes it perfectly clear that the only Hogwarts teachers capable of teaching Harry Occulmency are Snape & Dumbledore, neither of which are there any more.

He already knows how to destroy the Horcruxes, and has even actually done it. Dumbledore taught him everything else he needs to know about them in HBP. The question is no longer what or how, but where. Voldemort already had one Horcrux going to Hogwarts. It would have been foolish to stick another there.

Other than Occulmency and non-verbal spells (the latter of which Hermione can teach), Harry doesn't need to know anything else with regards to magic. He isn't going to be defeating Voldemort in a duel. Besides, this is magic that Voldemort clearly knows about. The key to defeating him is something else.

He might go back briefly to get a bit of information related to Voldy's past, but other than that, there is nothing that he needs to know that Hogwarts can provide. It is a dead-end. It prevents him from doing his duty more than help.

ikuko
March 31st, 2006, 3:14 am
Yes, because Harry learned that Sirius was not the bad guy. So, something comparable has to happen here: he needs to learn that it is not worthy hunting down Horcruxes.


Yes, so we need some equivalent of the letter to tell Harry that hunting Horcruxes actually is not important.Our exchanges become long, so I will cut to the essential. In your post, you essentially agreed that Harry does change his mind. You still have reservations about the strength of his resolve, but this is not the issue in many cases, like with Sirius.
Finally, we come to the essential. YES something important has to happen for Harry to change his mind. I agree with you here. It DOES NOT however, tell him "that hunting Horcruxes actually is not important." It is quite sufficient to convince him that a) he really needs to be in Hogwarts and b) that he will be able to look for horcruxes from there.


Again, what you have presented are faulty inductive conclusions. Just because Harry sometimes changes his mind, we can conclude only that the existential statement "Harry will change his resolve when presented with new data" is true. Your argument requires the universal statement, "Harry always changes his resolve" to be true for Harry resolving something to be evidence that he will do the opposite. As I wrote above, you have done the equivalent of showing that just because it is sunny in the morning, we cannot rule out rain in the afternoon.Wrong. I did not present ANY inductive evidence. Neither did I say that his decision is the reason why he will return. I said ONLY that your steatement "Harry said A therefore he will do A" is not valid, because we have NO canon evidence that the second part necessarily follows the first. On my part, there was no positive statement whatsoever here, only a demonstration that YOUR statement is wrong. Which it is, obviously. There is no need to prove that something does not exist. Only to prove that something does. You claim some rule that Harry always does what he decided. It is you who needs to prove it. And even THEN it will be only a SUBJECTIVE, INDUCTIVE evidence. All I need to do is to give you even a single example that it is not so. See? I ask for a proof, and present a valid evidence that your statement is wrong. You start demanding that I need to prove a non-existance of the rule that you invented.


My only positive claim was not based on Harry's resolve or hhis statement, it was simply founded in interviews and plot development. You never even attempted to disprove them.
In addition, HBP was pretty obviously written as a farewell to Hogwarts. There was a lot of slightly sentimental "last look" presentation to it. And, of course, JKR would be committing literary suicide by completely undermining the ending of the penultimate book and undermining the protagonist's character. Canon proof, please. Otherwise, it is an assumption.

FuzzyMuffins
March 31st, 2006, 3:16 am
I want Harry to return to Hogwarts as a student, but that might not work out. Maybe he will study on his own with books, Hermione, or Lupin. I can't see classes and N.E.W.T.S with the Horcruxes. Imagine:

McGonagall: And so changing your physical features is rather difficult magic. It requires...What is it, Mr. Potter?

Harry: May I have permission to hunt down Voldemort's fifth Horcrux? I can make up this lession tomorrow.

Brennen_Brennen
March 31st, 2006, 4:07 am
It will be alot if he returns to school but I'm pretty sure he will.

Alastor
March 31st, 2006, 4:58 am
You-Know-Who-You-Are have a very good reason to reread and make sure you fully understand these:
The Forum Rules, rule 2a (www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=22999)
Zero tolerance Policy (www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=22998)

Some posts in this thread do go under the heading of arguing.

Wimsey
March 31st, 2006, 5:42 am
For myself, I keep going back to the question "what does Harry need in order to defeat Voldemort in the end?" A couple things come to mind.
1) Occlumency - from a competent teacher

Harry knows how to do Occlumency: he just never has mastered it. He needs to practice it.

2) DD's pensieve and whatever memories Dumbledore placed in it before leaving for the cave (on a side note what will McGonagall discover/find out about the whole thing now that she's head and has the run of the office?)

These probably will be in the possession of Aberforth, who is an excellent contender for the character that we have seen in the background but who will stand forward.

McGonagal therefore probably will not (did not) get much of a chance to look through the things. As she was quite clueless about what Dumbledore was doing, there is no reason in particular that she'd search his Pensieve. Of course, there is the question of whether Dumbledore planned on possibly dying: given some hypotheses about what he and Snape argued, it is quite possible that Dumbledore knew that he might die

3) Info about Horcruxes and how to destroy them--IMHO the only one who can tell him this is Slughorn.

Harry knows how to destroy a Horcrux, having already done so. What he really needs is more information about Voldemort's history: that will let him find the Horcux hiding places.


Which means that he's going to be spending time at Hogwarts irregardless if the school is open or not.

Despite my comments, I do suspect that Harry will at least visit Hogwarts. If nothing else, then the allure of seeing Ginny (assuming that the school reopens) after Harry et al. visit Aberforth will be strong!

However, if Hogwarts reopens (a big if, that), then there probably will be things like Quidditch. During wartime, trying to maintain a semblance of normality is extremely important. Only 10 people are required, after all, and even if only half of the students return, that is still ~150 students in the 4 houses.

Still, the idea that there are reams of information about Voldemort at Hogwarts that Dumbledore somehow missed, and that Harry can somehow find this in one year when Dumbledore could not staggers credulity. JKR would be guilty of an idiot plot!


Finally, we come to the essential. YES something important has to happen for Harry to change his mind. I agree with you here. It DOES NOT however, tell him "that hunting Horcruxes actually is not important." It is quite sufficient to convince him that a) he really needs to be in Hogwarts and b) that he will be able to look for horcruxes from there.

Yes, we are at the essential. Now, as I noted above, Harry cannot hunt for Horcruxes while a student. Only teachers and some Aurors seem to know the spell(s) that allow people to get in and out of the school. Unless somebody teaches him this, then he is stuck. Moreover, Harry will have to waste copious time breaking school rules; given the security measures and the fact that McGonagal is none too happy with Harry at the end of HBP, this will be tough!

So, whatever drags him back to Hogwarts has to be huge to make Harry run this risk. Might this happen? Sure, it is remotely possible: but as yet we have zero evidence for this. So, your view is based not on anything that we have read, but on something that you believe (that is, accept as a matter of faith with no supporting evidence) will happen.


My only positive claim was not based on Harry's resolve or hhis statement, it was simply founded in interviews and plot development. You never even attempted to disprove them.

Actually, your argument is not based on your idea of how the plot will unfold (with Hogwarts proving to be a treasure trove of information about Voldemort and his Horcruxes) that contradicts the canon (how did Dumbledore never find it?).

Others of us anticipate the plot that Harry outlined at the end of HBP: Harry is going to search for the Horcruxes, destroy them, and then go after Nagini, and then Voldemort: and, with luck, he'll bag Snape on the way. That plot synopsis is in the book.

As for the interviews, you are hanging it all on one quote from 1999, a time at which JKR could not say anything other than what she did without giving away book VII. Your logic would hold only if she could have said otherwise: however, the expectations of "VII at Hogwarts" and "VII not at Hogwarts" are that JKR would make the same comment. Otherewise, where would the surprise be?

Wrong. I did not present ANY inductive evidence.

Yes, you have. Your evidence has been "When Harry says he'll do A, he does not-A." That is, you have attempted to work towards a generalization (i.e., inductive logic). That is the same as saying "All the crows I have seen are black, ergo all crows are black." We all know what Humť had to say about that!

But even Humť's observation really is besides the point: it is not a question of your conclusion being potentially unsound (not entirely true, with completely false being an extreme member of that set), it is demonstrably unsound: most of the time when Harry says he'll do A, he does A: and when he does not, it is because he discovers that A is not what he thought it was (e.g., "I'll get Sirius, the man who betrayed my parents; oops, he did not betray my parents.")


You claim some rule that Harry always does what he decided.

I am unaware of any occassion in which Harry has resolved to do something but failed to do it without very good reason, such as discovering that the "something" was not what he thought (e.g., Sirius was not the betrayer of his family). That is to say, Harry stops when he realizes that something is "logically complex": he wants to get the traitor Sirius Black, but there is no traitor Sirius Black.

Now, I might be forgetting some: but in the vast majority of cases where Harry sets out to do something (learn Patronus', uncover various plots involving Draco, Snape, etc., run the DA, get a memory from Slughorn), he follows through to the best of his ability. The occasions where Harry does not follow through (e.g., learning Occlumency), it is because his heart never is really in it.

So, my assumption is that the value of "If Harry resolves, then Harry carries through" is much greater than 0.5 (i.e.,a coin-flip); your assumption is that it is much less that 0.5. If you do not assume that Harry usually flip-flops, then Harry's resolution is evidence that he'll do something. I am not saying that it is 1.0; however, that is not necessary: I am only saying that it is true much more often than it is not.


Canon proof, please. Otherwise, it is an assumption.

It is all over the book: the comments on the familiarity of the place, etc. That is a classic literary device for "the long goodbye": it is a sort of "coming-of-age." This is not "canon" by the way: this is just knowledge of literature, and was noted in many reviews: JKR's writing was of the style used to say "goodbye" to a fictional place and its people.

Of course, we also know that there will be no Quidditch and no new character appearing to teach Defense against the Dark Arts. Never before has an existing character been used for that, so this makes it improbable that whomever teaches will be more than a name in the background.


Some posts in this thread do go under the heading of arguing.

Well, in formal logic, we call everything an argument! Indeed, we grace something with the word "argument" only on syllogisms that are valid and that have clearly stated assumptions. Otherwise, it's just a disagreement. (Monty Python had an excellent skit about this long, long ago: I think that it was Palin and Cleese.)

Or did you mean a more colloquial version of "argument" (e.g., "stop being jerks!")? :cool: (OK, I'll stop being cheeky now......)

ikuko
March 31st, 2006, 6:21 am
Yes, we are at the essential. Now, as I noted above, Harry cannot hunt for Horcruxes while a student. Only teachers and some Aurors seem to know the spell(s) that allow people to get in and out of the school. Unless somebody teaches him this, then he is stuck. Moreover, Harry will have to waste copious time breaking school rules; given the security measures and the fact that McGonagal is none too happy with Harry at the end of HBP, this will be tough!

So, whatever drags him back to Hogwarts has to be huge to make Harry run this risk. Might this happen? Sure, it is remotely possible: but as yet we have zero evidence for this. So, your view is based not on anything that we have read, but on something that you believe (that is, accept as a matter of faith with no supporting evidence) will happen.
Others of us anticipate the plot that Harry outlined at the end of HBP: Harry is going to search for the Horcruxes, destroy them, and then go after Nagini, and then Voldemort: and, with luck, he'll bag Snape on the way. That plot synopsis is in the book.

As for the interviews, you are hanging it all on one quote from 1999, a time at which JKR could not say anything other than what she did without giving away book VII. Your logic would hold only if she could have said otherwise: however, the expectations of "VII at Hogwarts" and "VII not at Hogwarts" are that JKR would make the same comment. Otherewise, where would the surprise be?May I point out that in all that you said here there is not a shred of canon, only assumptions?




Yes, you have. Your evidence has been "When Harry says he'll do A, he does not-A." That is, you have attempted to work towards a generalization (i.e., inductive logic). That is the same as saying "All the crows I have seen are black, ergo all crows are black." We all know what Humť had to say about that!
Thjis is rediculous and not true. I never, ever said that. YOU said that when Harry said he will do A, he will indeed do it. I said that this is not true, because we KNOW, from CANON, that there are cases that Harry said he will do A and he did not. I never claimed that his saying he will do A means that he will NOT do A. I never needed to.


I am unaware of any occassion in which Harry has resolved to do something but failed to do it without very good reason, Well, that's the point. Harry WILL have a good reason to return to Hogwarts.


So, my assumption is that the value of "If Harry resolves, then Harry carries through" is much greater than 0.5 (i.e.,a coin-flip); your assumption is that it is much less that 0.5. If you do not assume that Harry usually flip-flops, then Harry's resolution is evidence that he'll do something. I am not saying that it is 1.0; however, that is not necessary: I am only saying that it is true much more often than it is not.Completely irrelevant. Since your ONLY canon indication is Harry's words at the end of the book, you MUST have close-to-1.0 assurance that Harry NEVER goes back on his intention. We know, for a fact, that he does often enough. Therefore, your entire logic is based on absolutely nothing.


It is all over the book: the comments on the familiarity of the place, etc. That is a classic literary device for "the long goodbye": it is a sort of "coming-of-age." This is not "canon" by the way: this is just knowledge of literature, and was noted in many reviews: JKR's writing was of the style used to say "goodbye" to a fictional place and its people.

Of course, we also know that there will be no Quidditch and no new character appearing to teach Defense against the Dark Arts. Never before has an existing character been used for that, so this makes it improbable that whomever teaches will be more than a name in the background.
Pure fantasy without any canon proof. Snape was existing character. Quidditch was scipped for a year before, and for lesser reason than war. Familiarity of the place was commented on in every book so far, and Harry was happily returning.

Jessica
March 31st, 2006, 6:52 am
We're going to take a little break here.