Lupin in HBP

Hi All,

This is a thread to discuss Lupin's role in HBP. I have been asked to remind you that this thread should discuss only what Lupin does/says in HBP and should not turn into a general discussion thread.

So, on to Lupin in HBP! His revelation about Greyback, his work as a spy, his relationship with Tonks...there's a lot here to discuss!

My first question after finishing the book was now that Greyback witnessed Lupin fighting for the Order at Hogwarts, it doesn't seem very likely that Lupin will be able to continue his role as spy for the werewolves. So, what do you think Lupin will do?

Also, what did you think of Lupin's reaction to Dumbledore's death? We rarely see him show that much emotion, and even Harry was slightly taken aback.

Anyway, let's start discussing! Remus Survives! :)

A) He didn't die!!

B) I thought he wasn't around enough, although that could be said of alot of the adult characters obviously. What we did see of him was rather heartbreaking, really: his avoidance of Tonks, his stairing blankly into the fire, his wild fury over Dumbledore's death. It was really Lupin's reaction to the latter that actually got me upset as I was reading.

C) Although I did get a Remus/Tonks vibe in OotP, I thought it worked out kind of strangely in HBP. There's something about someone as young and vivacious as Tonks bringing up the Big Marriage Question that seemed out of place.

D) Greyback is a sicko, and I'm glad we now know why Remus was infected.

E) The predictions that Lupin has been with the werewovles turned out to be correct. Was he with them as well during GoF and most of OotP? Does this account for why he never sent Harry any letters?


I don't know if you've seen the latest news at the Leaky Cauldron, but evidently JKR says there will be no death by poking!

It was really Lupin's reaction to the latter that actually got me upset as I was reading.


It affected me exactly the same way! And hey, look at you here in LupinLand! ;)

I don't know if you've seen the latest news at the Leaky Cauldron, but evidently JKR says there will be no death by poking!
I hadn't seen that! Yay! :tu:

I don't think Remus will be going back to the werewolves, for the reason you gave, hobbit, and simply because he didn't seem to be getting anywhere with them.

I am really loving Fenrir as a character. He so very bloodthirsty and creepy and simply a great bad guy. Remus now has a built-in nemesis and I'm hoping for a grand fight between them.

Meh. No comments on Remus/Tonks. I'm not in the mood, but yay for Remus finding someone.

From the ITV Interview posted at Leaky.

"Wormtail will not kill Lupin."

Yay!!

Hooray for a new Lupin thread and new things to discuss!

I don't think many of us were surprised to see Lupin doing undercover work for the Order among the werewolf community, but you pose an interesting question, hobbitseeker, about what Lupin will do now that Greyback clearly knows who he is. I wonder if Greyback also recognizes Lupin as the object of revenge he'd used so many years earlier. In either case, I think Lupin is going to find himself in considerable danger now. . . in particular with the latter. Greyback's goal in life is to create a community of rampant werewolves like himself, and Lupin has resisted that to great effect. If he knows that Lupin's lycanthropy is a result of his bite, and that Lupin has gone on to resist everything that he stands for, who knows what he might do. . .

To the second point: Lupin's reaction to Dumbledore's death was understandable, but, like Harry, kind of startling. We haven't seen this kind of emotional outburst from Lupin (save for maybe in the Shrieking Shack in PoA, but that was a different kind of emotion), even though he has had ample opportunity to show it. It leads me to believe that there was some kind of intense connection--even more intense than the friendship of the Marauders--between Lupin and Dumbledore. . . something so strong that he couldn't hold back.

Granted, the situation is much different in HBP than in OoTP: in OoTP, I think the discovery of Sirius's death fell at a time of extreme danger, in the middle of a battle, and Lupin had to remain strong and collected for the sake of the kids. In HBP, though, there's no such thing to hold him back. You really do feel, as Harry does, that this is a very private moment for him that just happens to be occurring in a public setting. It makes me wonder the kind of grief he displays at other times, on his own when no one is there to see.

A) He didn't die!!

:clap: Yay!!!

B) I thought he wasn't around enough, although that could be said of alot of the adult characters obviously. What we did see of him was rather heartbreaking, really: his avoidance of Tonks, his stairing blankly into the fire, his wild fury over Dumbledore's death. It was really Lupin's reaction to the latter that actually got me upset as I was reading.

Yes, I was really hoping we'd see more of him. I wouldn't be surprised if we DO get to see more of him in Book 7, especially since Dumbledore is gone and Lupin most likely won't be hanging around with Greyback all that much. Or, at least I hope we get to see more of him!

C) Although I did get a Remus/Tonks vibe in OotP, I thought it worked out kind of strangely in HBP. There's something about someone as young and vivacious as Tonks bringing up the Big Marriage Question that seemed out of place.

I thought the whole thing was very out of place, especially seeing as Lupin was trying to grieve over Dumbledore. I think it's sweet that Tonk's patronus changed for him. I just felt like we need to know more of their story. I know dark times bring people together, like Mrs. Weasley said, but I want to know more about PinkWerewolf or whatever their ship is ;)

D) Greyback is a sicko, and I'm glad we now know why Remus was infected.

Yes, he was truly awful, and I feel so sorry that Remus had to be in touch with him while he was spying. It must have been awful for him to know that he was speaking to them man who made his life so incredibly difficult.

Also, we find out who invented Wolfsbane!

E) The predictions that Lupin has been with the werewovles turned out to be correct. Was he with them as well during GoF and most of OotP? Does this account for why he never sent Harry any letters?

Remus does say something to that degree, so I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to think that that's why Harry never gets any letters from him.


I don't know if you've seen the latest news at the Leaky Cauldron, but evidently JKR says there will be no death by poking!

I saw that! YAY!!! This calls for a toast to all the Cod Squad members who valiantly reiterated over and over again that there will be no death by poking! ;)

C) Although I did get a Remus/Tonks vibe in OotP, I thought it worked out kind of strangely in HBP. There's something about someone as young and vivacious as Tonks bringing up the Big Marriage Question that seemed out of place.
I didn't get that vibe in OoTP at all. Got any passages you can give us?

NO DEATH BY POKING!!! HOORAY!!! :)

And hey, look at you here in LupinLand! ;)Yeah, who knew? :lol:

I am really loving Fenrir as a character. He so very bloodthirsty and creepy and simply a great bad guy. Remus now has a built-in nemesis and I'm hoping for a grand fight between them.That dude is seriously creepy. He's a real predator, the exact type of werewolf that the Ministry and wizarding community in general has been fearful of for ages. It would be really great for Fenrir to get his comeuppance from Lupin, it really would.

I didn't get that vibe in OoTP at all. Got any passages you can give us?There's not a lot in actual text, it's more a subtextual thing. (Alas, I love my shippy subtext.) It was in how JKR would cleverly arrange for them to be on missions together (all those "let's all bring the kids back to school!" trips), or how he insists on calling her by her first name and how she acts upset about that but is probably pleasantly surprised by it. Hee. I don't know, I thought they were kind of cute. :D

You know, I'm wondering if Remus continued to take Wolfsbane during his time as a spy with the werewolves?

I was a bit disappointed that Lupin hadn't taken up duty as official-sender-of-encouraging-owls-to-Harry but oh well... he did say it would have given him away toward the end...

We always saw Lupin as pretty diplomatic: he was the one who looked at both sides of an argument (Molly and Sirius in OotP) and wouldn't just make rash decisions (revealing Wormtail in PoA). When he viewed Snape with a neuteral state, it angered me, but we couldn't say we weren't expecting it.

Tonks and Remus? I suppose it could work...

~fenestra

On Greyback and Bill Weasley: JKR has set up a really interesting spectrum of lycanthropy for us here. Greyback is the werewolf who holds on to the wolfish part of him even as a human--"the wolf" to the extreme. Bill, so we think, will not have to experience transformation, but will possibly exhibit bits of "the wolf" in his everyday human existence. Then, we have Lupin in the middle, who avoids the wolf as much as possible, but still has to endure transformation every full moon. We definitely can see now where the wizarding prejudice against werewolves comes from (Greyback and those like him), but I think we also see a kind of hope for the cause in Bill, who will hopefully not demonstrate enough of the violent behavior to make him ever truly dangerous. Someone like Bill could be a great ally for the future of justice and fair treatment for werewolves in the wizarding world.

There's not a lot in actual text, it's more a subtextual thing. (Alas, I love my shippy subtext.) It was in how JKR would cleverly arrange for them to be on missions together (all those "let's all bring the kids back to school!" trips), or how he insists on calling her by her first name and how she acts upset about that but is probably pleasantly surprised by it. Hee. I don't know, I thought they were kind of cute. :D
Well, I'm just going to have to go back and look myself, then! :p

You know, I'm wondering if Remus continued to take Wolfsbane during his time as a spy with the werewolves?
That's a really interesting question. The knowledge now that most werewolves seem more keen on embracing their "dark creature" status than repelling it throws an interesting new light on our previous discussions about the availability and distribution of the wolfsbane potion, doesn't it? Perhaps Lupin is in the minority in consistently using it. . .

That's a really interesting question. The knowledge now that most werewolves seem more keen on embracing their "dark creature" status than repelling it throws an interesting new light on our previous discussions about the availability and distribution of the wolfsbane potion, doesn't it? Perhaps Lupin is in the minority in consistently using it. . .I'm inclined to think Lupin wouldn't have taken it while with the other werewolves. If he's trying to blend in and get information, then he has to do as they do and it seems as though they really embrace the beast within, which suggests they don't take the Wolfsbane potion.

(What are our thoughts on the fact that Snape isn't the one who invented Wolfsbane?)

That's a really interesting question. The knowledge now that most werewolves seem more keen on embracing their "dark creature" status than repelling it throws an interesting new light on our previous discussions about the availability and distribution of the wolfsbane potion, doesn't it? Perhaps Lupin is in the minority in consistently using it. . .

It just makes me wonder, though. Who would have made the Wolfsbane for him? From how Remus speaks of Snape at Christmas, it doesn't seem like Snape is making the potion for him anymore. And then Remus talks about how the werewolves are darker than he is and even killing people...would they be able to tell if Remus had taken the potion and wasn't "wolf" enough when transformed? Did Remus have to go on any excursions where someone was killed?

ETA: (What are our thoughts on the fact that Snape isn't the one who invented Wolfsbane?)


I never really thought Snape intented it--I figured he hated werewolves and other part-humans so much that he'd never spend his time trying to help him. I thought perhaps Lily had created it, and now it seems she was good at potions and it could have been true, but alas, I was wrong.

On Tonks and Remus: I've said this about a hundred times to different people today, but if you'd have asked me on Friday afternoon about the possibility that this ship would ever sail in anything other than the realm of fanfic, I'd have been willing to bet everything I own that it would never happen. . . Wow, was I floored when it did! I vaguely recall some nonsense syllables escaping my lips. . .

For all my objections that I've ever had to this relationship, though, I had to laugh at the irony of JKR bringing up almost all of them in that couple of pages in which that revelation emerged. It was kind of creepy, actually :scared: The thing is, though, with romance so clearly in the water in HBP, I feel like there's a theme emerging there, and Tonks and Lupin is probably the best example of it: love that knows no boundaries. Granted, the kind of love that has been explored previously in the series has been that between parents and children, platonic love between friends, etc. This very serious dive into another kind of love--romantic love--is entirely new, because it can take so many forms. Frivolous love, like we see with Ron and Lavendar, often tricks us and disguises itself as real, unconditional love, which is what we see with Bill and Fleur. . . and consequently Lupin and Tonks. More than any other kind of love, I think, it requires a lot of faith, for that very reason that it spans such a wide spectrum.

Despite my initial objections, the more I think about Lupin and Tonks symbolizing this kind of love, the more I accept it. And now, maybe for the first time in a long time, Lupin can really feel like he really deserves to be loved.

Aside from all that serious stuff, I have to admit that I'm thrilled at the idea that Lupin's new girl is about my age ;) Thank you, J.K. Rowling, for allowing a girl to dream.

(What are our thoughts on the fact that Snape isn't the one who invented Wolfsbane?)
Well, considering his new seriously evil status (object to this all you want, liz :p ), it wouldn't make much sense for Snape to have invented the Wolfsbane potion. What advantage would there be for his cause at making dark creatures more tame? An angry werewolf is a powerful weapon for Voldemort's side, and wolfsbane is going to make them considerably less angry, more in-control of their own minds, more able to make their own decisions and function more normally in society. . .

On Tonks and Remus: I've said this about a hundred times to different people today, but if you'd have asked me on Friday afternoon about the possibility that this ship would ever sail in anything other than the realm of fanfic, I'd have been willing to bet everything I own that it would never happen. . . Wow, was I floored when it did! I vaguely recall some nonsense syllables escaping my lips. . .

For all my objections that I've ever had to this relationship, though, I had to laugh at the irony of JKR bringing up almost all of them in that couple of pages in which that revelation emerged. It was kind of creepy, actually :scared: The thing is, though, with romance so clearly in the water in HBP, I feel like there's a theme emerging there, and Tonks and Lupin is probably the best example of it: love that knows no boundaries. Granted, the kind of love that has been explored previously in the series has been that between parents and children, platonic love between friends, etc. This very serious dive into another kind of love--romantic love--is entirely new, because it can take so many forms. Frivolous love, like we see with Ron and Lavendar, often tricks us and disguises itself as real, unconditional love, which is what we see with Bill and Fleur. . . and consequently Lupin and Tonks. More than any other kind of love, I think, it requires a lot of faith, for that very reason that it spans such a wide spectrum.

Despite my initial objections, the more I think about Lupin and Tonks symbolizing this kind of love, the more I accept it. And now, maybe for the first time in a long time, Lupin can really feel like he really deserves to be loved.

Aside from all that serious stuff, I have to admit that I'm thrilled at the idea that Lupin's new girl is about my age ;) Thank you, J.K. Rowling, for allowing a girl to dream.


I agree 100% with everything you just said here! :tu: I too was floored when it happened!

I agree that this idea of unconditional love is huge in the series, and I was deeply moved when Fleur did not turn her back on Bill when he was attacked. It is just another example of how we should not judge a book by its cover--Fleur may come off a bit dense and self-centered, but she is capable of seeing people for who try truly are, and not just what they look like or what has happened to them. Though I was very upset to see Bill hurt in that manner, I am glad Lupin was able to witness Fleur's continued dedication to her fiancee despite the attack. I think this helped Lupin see that Tonks was serious in her love for him, and that he is whole, even though he's a werewolf. It broke my heart to hear Lupin say something like that, but I believe he will slowly begin to feel better about himself with help from Tonks, Fleur and Bill.

And then Remus talks about how the werewolves are darker than he is and even killing people...would they be able to tell if Remus had taken the potion and wasn't "wolf" enough when transformed? Did Remus have to go on any excursions where someone was killed?
Would he really have had to stick around during transformations? Couldn't he go back to his own place, have a transformation with the potion, and then go back undercover again? I suppose it would look more "authentic" for him to stick around with the rest of the werewolves during transformations at least once or twice, but I'm sure that Lupin would avoid it as much as possible, considering the kind of negative influence the others would likely be able to exercise on him when transformed. If he knew others were going out and killing during transformations, he would probably naturally fear that sticking around them during the full moon would lead him in a similar direction. Dumbledore, I'm sure, wouldn't expect him to remain in a situation like that, so long as he could get away with it without arousing suspicion.

Dumbledore was a father figure to Lupin. He was also the source of their biggest hope (other than Harry). It's not surprising he felt it so much. Also the point already made about remaining brave for Harry.
There was no pretending to take the loss of Dumbledore as anything but the blow it was.

I'm happy for him having Tonks. I wish it had been hinted at earlier, but still happy.

Would he really have had to stick around during transformations? Couldn't he go back to his own place, have a transformation with the potion, and then go back undercover again? I suppose it would look more "authentic" for him to stick around with the rest of the werewolves during transformations at least once or twice, but I'm sure that Lupin would avoid it as much as possible, considering the kind of negative influence the others would likely be able to exercise on him when transformed. If he knew others were going out and killing during transformations, he would probably naturally fear that sticking around them during the full moon would lead him in a similar direction. Dumbledore, I'm sure, wouldn't expect him to remain in a situation like that, so long as he could get away with it without arousing suspicion.


I agree that he would want to avoid it as much as possible, but I do think Greyback particularly would begin to get suspicious if Lupin was never around during transformations. Lupin seems to have a good idea of what they do during their transformations, and of course he could have gotten this information from talking to them, but I still think he most likely went on a few excursions himself with the group. How horrible it must have been for him to pretend he wanted to act like that!

How horrible it must have been for him to pretend he wanted to act like that!
Oh, I know! It's painful to think about Lupin, forced to act so out-of-character, against everything he believes in. No wonder he is looking more drained than ever. . .

The thought of Lupin hanging around those monsters makes me ill. It really makes you understand the prejudice that Wizards have against werewolves.

Lupin has experianced so much loss in his life...its not hard to believe that he feels he has no right to love
Just about everyone he has ever cared for in his life is now gone...James, Lily, Sirius and now Dumbledoore...I believe after Sirius died...he wanted to push Tonks further and futher away...

Who knows how long Tonks had been in love with Lupin...she may have mentioned it several times...and who knows, Lupin may have let himself go for a little bit...up until Sirius died at least...
This would explain Tonks' sudden fall into a deep depresion, her Patronus' sudden shape change and her lack of hope...we all know nothing hurts more than experiancing love and losing it suddenly than not experiancing shared love at all.

I too was shocked about Tonks' revelation to Lupin...but you know what? The shock of Dumbledoore' death was so outrageous and unbelivable that I could take anything after that with stride....to be honest...I punched my fist in the air and squeeled...lol

On the Tonks/Remus ship, I was relieved to see it actually worked out. However, it did break my heart as well to hear him saying those words about himself to Tonks ("I am too old...too dangerous...for you" and "you need someone young and whole). :upset: I was moved by how Tonks stood steadfast beside him, her unconditional love never faltering, just like with us Lupinites... :)
When I read about his work underground amongst the werewolves, I began to feel really worried for him-what if they killed him? Trapped and/or imprisoned him? Is it a worrisome sign that I felt slightly sick when I was worried about him?
With him working with the other werewolves in future books, I'm as yet undecided as to whether he will continue or not. I'll have to read others' opinions on the board to try and make a guess... :)
Dumbledore was a father figure to Lupin. He was also the source of their biggest hope (other than Harry). It's not surprising he felt it so much. Also the point already made about remaining brave for Harry.
There was no pretending to take the loss of Dumbledore as anything but the blow it was.
Nicely said. I think you've hit the nail on the head with this one. :agree: He was feeling so much grief then in that hospital wing, and it was...I can't find the right word...to see him break down was quite emotional. Like Harry, I felt that it was rather a private moment as well. I wonder how he'll take it-that's another very close person he's lost: James and Lily, Sirius and now Dumbledore. :upset:

No death by poking-thank goodness.


Despite my initial objections, the more I think about Lupin and Tonks symbolizing this kind of love, the more I accept it. And now, maybe for the first time in a long time, Lupin can really feel like he really deserves to be loved.

I agree with you wholeheartedly there, hobbitseeker.

Lupin has experianced so much loss in his life...its not hard to believe that he feels he has no right to love
Just about everyone he has ever cared for in his life is now gone...James, Lily, Sirius and now Dumbledoore...I believe after Sirius died...he wanted to push Tonks further and futher away...
Lupin definitely pushes people away, but I feel it's just as much out of concern for them as concern for himself. Loss is obviously getting harder and harder for him to take, so complete separation from close relationships probably looks pretty darn good. . . But I think that he was pushing Tonks away because he seriously didn't think he was good enough. He doesn't believe he deserves to be cared for, especially because of how it can cruelly turn on him at any moment, both from outside forces, and the force of lycanthropy within him. He has the capacity to seriously hurt anyone near him, and that's an oppressive thought.

Based on the kinds of things Tonks was saying to him as well, it seemed like he wasn't convinced that she really cared about him that much. She's having to prove to him that it is possible to love someone "like him," because he doesn't believe anyone really can. Even though they seem to be together now, I feel like the end of the "discussion" left us with the sense that Lupin still isn't entirely convinced. He's willing to put himself out there and posibly get hurt, and that's a big step, but he still has a long way to go before really having that self-worth that will make him feel that he really can be loved for who he is.

Lupin definitely pushes people away, but I feel it's just as much out of concern for them as concern for himself. Loss is obviously getting harder and harder for him to take, so complete separation from close relationships probably looks pretty darn good. . . But I think that he was pushing Tonks away because he seriously didn't think he was good enough. He doesn't believe he deserves to be cared for, especially because of how it can cruelly turn on him at any moment, both from outside forces, and the force of lycanthropy within him. He has the capacity to seriously hurt anyone near him, and that's an oppressive thought.

Based on the kinds of things Tonks was saying to him as well, it seemed like he wasn't convinced that she really cared about him that much. She's having to prove to him that it is possible to love someone "like him," because he doesn't believe anyone really can. Even though they seem to be together now, I feel like the end of the "discussion" left us with the sense that Lupin still isn't entirely convinced. He's willing to put himself out there and posibly get hurt, and that's a big step, but he still has a long way to go before really having that self-worth that will make him feel that he really can be loved for who he is.
I agree with that as well. I wanted to reach in there and tell him he does deserve to be loved-Tonks is right. He actually reminded me of myself, and I had just now spent several minutes just sobbing out loud, and felt that I had learnt something important from Tonks and Remus scene in the hospital wing...that true love knows no bounds-you care for someone no matter what, and the same goes for Remus.

I also found it interesting how Mrs. Weasley reacts to Remus during his conversation with Tonks.

"I've said all along you're taking a ridiculous line on this, Remus," said Mrs. Weasley

How many times have we seen Lupin trying to keep Mrs. Weasley in line, using one of his firm statements to help her see the other side of a situation? And now we see the table turned, and Mrs. Weasley helping Lupin out. I think it's sweet that she cares for him that much.

I also found it interested how Mrs. Weasley reacts to Remus during his conversation with Tonks.

"I've said all along you're taking a ridiculous line on this, Remus," said Mrs. Weasley

How many times have we seen Lupin trying to keep Mrs. Weasley in line, using one of his firm statements to help her see the other side of a situation? And now we see the table turned, and Mrs. Weasley helping Lupin out. I think it's sweet that she cares for him that much.
I feel like Mrs. Weasley was sort of the go-between for these two. We see Tonks and Lupin at the Burrow at various times in the book, both under close care from Mrs. Weasley, but never at the same time. I think it's really sweet as well :) She really just wants to see them both happy, especially after they've both been in such low spirits for such a long time.

I feel like Mrs. Weasley was sort of the go-between for these two. We see Tonks and Lupin at the Burrow at various times in the book, both under close care from Mrs. Weasley, but never at the same time. I think it's really sweet as well :) She really just wants to see them both happy, especially after they've both been in such low spirits for such a long time.

I got that same vibe, especially when she's trying to get Tonks to stay for dinner and says Remus will be there... ;) I think she realizes they both need a little push, especially Remus. Perhaps now that he might not be hanging with the werewolves so much, he won't feel as bad about himself and can begin to love others again.

Along these lines, does anyone else think that Remus might not be corresponding with
Harry partially because he is worried he'll get close to Harry and then Harry will die? After so many deaths of people he is close to, it wouldn't surprise me if Remus was afraid of making loving relationships, whether romantic or not.

Along these lines, does anyone else think that Remus might not be corresponding with
Harry partially because he is worried he'll get close to Harry and then Harry will die? After so many deaths of people he is close to, it wouldn't surprise me if Remus was afraid of making loving relationships, whether romantic or not.
I do believe that could be one of the reasons why he didn't keep in touch with Harry. I couldn't blame him-look at all those he loved he lost-Lily, James, Sirius, Dumbledore... This might sound like a dumb question, but did he seem to be a bit more distant from Harry in HBP than in, say, PoA?

Plus is sounds like he was really busy with all the werewolf parties he was having...If he was living with him he musn't have had much time to converse with Harry....I was releived that it wasn't an issue or Harry, though. No OOTP related hissy fit...

I do believe that could be one of the reasons why he didn't keep in touch with Harry. I couldn't blame him-look at all those he loved he lost-Lily, James, Sirius, Dumbledore... This might sound like a dumb question, but did he seem to be a bit more distant from Harry in HBP than in, say, PoA?
I agree, I was disappointed that we didn't hear more of Lupin in HBP.... but you can't really blame Lupin, seeing all he's gone through. First Lily & James, then Sirius, and now Dumbledore. He probably felt that everyone he weas close to were dying, and therefore detatched himself from people he cared about. Also, like he said, he was 'underground', so he had difficulty communicating even if he wanted to.

Firstly, I don't think his reaction was unexpected at all. He was tired, ragged, and very ill-looking, no? He was weak and tired. And EVERYONE nearly reacted like that. I wouldn't blame him.

There SHOULD have been more of him though. I truly think he would have been some help. I believe he will play a bigger part in Book 7, but we don't know.

Remus and Tonks? Well wahddyaknow! I find there's not enough evidence. I find Tonks even a muggle person, like her mother. I dunno. Just seems a little more of a rush to me. Like Molly (Mrs. Weasley) said, everyone's rushing to do things because of the return of Voldemort. It seems iffy and suspicious if ya ask me. Of course, not in an evil way, but...Lupin looked a little scared of Tonks when she just jumped with her feeling like that.

I find him quite brave to go into the werewolf world being so calm and quiet like that. What makes me curious is that he said that bitten werewolves are wild. Why isn't he like that? Why did he remain quiet, like so? It's something else JK needs to answer.

Greyback I find a little too...well, okay the name doesn't do the guy justice! Honestly...But otherwise, I find him really really frightening...

I sort of thought it was odd that Lupin couldn't correspond with Harry at all. I didn't quite buy his excuse that being underground made it too difficult. . . I feel like there's got to be something else. Maybe it's that he's afraid of getting to close to Harry, but I feel like that's not quite enough, either, since his "obligation" as the last closest link to Harry's parents would probably outweigh--even for the insecurities--any personal objectios.

I sort of thought it was odd that Lupin couldn't correspond with Harry at all. I didn't quite buy his excuse that being underground made it too difficult. . . I feel like there's got to be something else. Maybe it's that he's afraid of getting to close to Harry, but I feel like that's not quite enough, either, since his "obligation" as the last closest link to Harry's parents would probably outweigh--even for the insecurities--any personal objectios.

You know, I don't think Remus would necessarily lie to Harry about why he didn't write, and I do think it is partially because of his work as a spy, but I do agree that there's probably more to it, including his not wanting to get close to Harry in case something happens. I wonder if Remus was worried that if he was corresponding with Harry and Greyback found out, that Greyback would do something horrible to Harry? But, if Remus didn't spend all his time with the werewolves, as you and I believe, then surely he could have written Harry a note every once in awhile? He could even has used his nickname 'Moony.'

On a lighter note, here are some pictures (http://photobucket.com/albums/b160/hobbitseeker/HBP/) of me and my friends from the HBP release party! I'm the redhead dressed as Ginny, my friend Niki is Hermione from the POA movie, and my friend Seth is dressed as Crazy Lupin! (Actually, he was just dressed as Lupin, but seeing as Seth himself is crazy, it just makes sense that his Lupin would be crazy... ;)) Check them out! :)

I wished we ahd seen more of Lupin in HBP. Persoanlly I was hoping that he would take over as the father fiuger (i can't spell very good) to Harry. I was pleased he found someone but I don't know why but I wish it wa ssomeone else, even though I do like Tonk's. I'm glad Lupin is finally showing more emotion. I like how Jo is showing different acpects of love. I hope Lupin is happier in Book 7. He's my favorite character.

I find him quite brave to go into the werewolf world being so calm and quiet like that. What makes me curious is that he said that bitten werewolves are wild. Why isn't he like that? Why did he remain quiet, like so? It's something else JK needs to answer.

Greyback I find a little too...well, okay the name doesn't do the guy justice! Honestly...But otherwise, I find him really really frightening...

I think that it said a lot of them (the other werewolves) were taken from their parents after being bitten and taught to hate wizards. Apparently Remus stuck around with his parents so he didn't have the same 'wild' streak, at least that's what I thought.

I find Greyback frightening too and I have to wonder if he has Grey hair when he's transformed. I mean it makes sense, doesn't it? Okay so it's stupid but I was just curious!

I can't say I object to Remus and Tonks at all. I liked the ship and saw some hints of it before HBP so... But I think it's good that somebody shouted at him and told him he was being stupid about thinking he wasn't worth it etc. I didn't like the part at Christmas where he was telling Harry he was 'among his equals' or something like that when he was with the more vicious werewolves.

I wonder what Remus' father did to offend Greyback though? I mean I imagine Greyback has pretty high pride and low concience so it might not take that much but I do wonder.

Is Lupin's grief that overwhelming? Almost everyone else seemed a little underwhelmed. We should remember, too, that Dumbledore had been extraordinarily kind to Remus, ever since Remus was a young boy (accepting him at Hogwarts and making arrangements, such as the Shrieking Shack, to hide his lycanthropy). He also hired him when he was otherwise mostly unemployable as an adult in the wizarding world. I'm sure that Dumbledore's usual care seemed even more special to a man who faced hatred and prejudice all his life, especially when he was alone after the death and incarceration of his true friends, the Marauders. So why should his grief not be strong, and apparent?

As for the ship, it was a pleasant surprise but seemed definitely to come out of nowhere. (My next rereading of the whole series will of course include looking for some preparation for it.) And it doesn't explain, not by a long shot, the bizarre behaviour of Tonks in HPB (like why was she so flustered, met by Harry in the hallway, or even what the importance of having a animorphmagus in the Order is to the storyline). Nor do I think it completely explains why there is so little of Lupin even when he is visiting the Burrow--he barely participates in the conversation or activity. Can it really be that he is merely preoccupied with Tonks or his werewolf activities? Or is it just the unusual lack of detail in this particular book?

Grayback's a truly interesting and frightening creation. I'm glad to hear that there'll be no Wormtail murder of Lupin: maybe he'll get Grayback instead and pay back his debt to Harry that way...(too obvious of course).

Someone like Bill could be a great ally for the future of justice and fair treatment for werewolves in the wizarding world.
Awww, my hero, Bill. *squee*

Very good point about the spectrum of lycanthropy. Fenrir rather throws out Newt Scamander's definition of werewolves as 'normal' humans when they're not transformed. I don't know though, how much he would have tried to be just like the others. Forgive me for using a comparison to evangelical Christianity, but in church they always say the best witness is how you live your life, not so much what you say. And Remus was, in a way, evangelizing, trying to get other werewolves to see that they need not act like Fenrir. So, to a certain extent, he'd not have wanted to stick out and be scorned, but he would also have wanted to show himself as different and happier than the rest. It would be a very subtle sort of act. Oh, he's just so very strong and brave! *squishy hug for Lupin* You know he muct have hated doing that job.

Honnit: I would think Lupin did not take the potion when he was with the werewolves, as he was likely trying to fit in. And they would have scorned him for denying his wolfish side as much as he does in the first place, so I doubt he would have wanted to increase that scorn.

Remus and Tonks. Guh. I felt like Jo was just throwing everyone together in the end to make the shippers happy and didn't actually develop any relationships. Any of them. At all. There was only Tonks' patronus to indicate what was going on there before she blurts stuff out. I just felt so empty by all the romances, if that isn't obvious. :p

How many times have we seen Lupin trying to keep Mrs. Weasley in line, using one of his firm statements to help her see the other side of a situation? And now we see the table turned, and Mrs. Weasley helping Lupin out. Aw, that is a sweet point. *cuddles Remus* He just reacted exactly how we'd all expected him to. I still wish we could have had a bit more of this, though.

does anyone else think that Remus might not be corresponding with
Harry partially because he is worried he'll get close to Harry and then Harry will die?
I buy his excuse that he's been in hiding. I think he would have wanted to be there for Harry if he could have.

I think that it said a lot of them (the other werewolves) were taken from their parents after being bitten and taught to hate wizards. Apparently Remus stuck around with his parents so he didn't have the same 'wild' streak, at least that's what I thought.Oooh, nice point! From the way he explained it to Harry, you see that Lupin's parents were aware that Greyback contaminated Lupin as an act of revenge, and going back to PoA we know that they did all that they could to make his transformations less horrible. Being closely tied to his family would shield him from the callousness that most werewolf cubs were subject to. Makes me what became of his family. :)

I buy his excuse that he's been in hiding. I think he would have wanted to be there for Harry if he could have.I had the same feeling. I think it bodes well for the future that he's very conscious that he wasn't writing. I took it to mean that he feels it's his obligation to keep in touch, and now that his Underground mission is shot, and Harry is off to learn more about his parents, Lupin will overcome any hypothetical insecurities and rise to the occasion to help Harry do that.

I kept waiting for JKR to bring Lupin up (I grinned my head off at the merest mention of his name), and there wasn't nearly enough of him! I pray he figures largely into the plot of the next book, else the series will end and we won't have known him well enough! Hearing his history was great, though, and I'd love to see him get that Greyback, as a Marauder showdown may not be that likely (it could still happen, I just don't see JKR giving away the outcome of it if she intends to include it).

I don't like the Remus/Tonks ship, gah. Not that I blame Tonks for loving him (who could help it?), but if I'm being honest I don't like anyone loving him unless there's no chance of winning him. I'd begun to fancy Lupin too lofty for mere earthly love, and it's excrutiating to be so... shot down. :p

I didn't like the part at Christmas where he was telling Harry he was 'among his equals' or something like that when he was with the more vicious werewolves.
Yes, there was something about that bit that actually gnawed at me a bit, now you mention it. Wouldn't to be 'among his equals' imply that he was just like them? He's a werewolf, yes, but he's not like like them-he's gentle, introverted and an all-round gentle man. However, the other werewolves don't sound much like him at all. But maybe we'll meet another werewolf who actually is on Lupin's side? I mean, there must be at least one other werewolf out there who's against Voldemort.

Yes, there was something about that bit that actually gnawed at me a bit, now you mention it. Wouldn't to be 'among his equals' imply that he was just like them? He's a werewolf, yes, but he's not like like them-he's gentle, introverted and an all-round gentle man. However, the other werewolves don't sound much like him at all. But maybe we'll meet another werewolf who actually is on Lupin's side? I mean, there must be at least one other werewolf out there who's against Voldemort.

"I've been living among my fellows, my equals," said Lupin.

That's what he says, but a moment later JKR describes him as sounding "bitter." And I think this is just another example of how Remus feels he isn't whole because of his lycanthropy. He's a werewolf, and he has this horrible notion that because of his lycanthropy he's dangerous, not to be trusted, a bad person. This is definitely shown in his conversation with Tonks: "I'm too old for you, too poor...too dangerous....Tonks deserves somebody young and whole." Saying that he was living among his "equals" is Remus' way of saying he somehow deserves to live this horrible life among killers and dark wizards just because he was bitten by a werewolf. I think Remus wishes he didn't have to by the spy because it is a constant reminder of what he could have become--what he still could become, if he chose to--but he knows it's his duty to help the Order, and like he says, he's the best person to do it.

ETA: I just thought of something.

...they have shunned normal society and live on the margins, stealing--and sometimes killing--to eat."

My question is about the Werewolf Registry and what we've discussed it might do. Are these werewolves who are killing people registered? If not, how did they escape being registered? And if they are, how come the Ministry isn't doing something about the murders they are committing? You'd think the Ministry would want to show it was doing something during these times. My guess is that these particular werewolves aren't registered, but that begs the question--how'd they escape that? I don't think all of them were children who were dragged away by Greyback, but I could be wrong.

First, let me say hello to everyone and thanks to the Mods and Admin for opening early! I was frantic yesterday when I finished and had no place to go. Found a site with forums opened and posted a few times, but it wasn't the same without the "gang" around. Good to be home!
Okay, I was really disappointed that Remus wasn't the HBP, but the book just blew me away! He also wasn't in it much, which was also a little disappointing, but the book was so good.
I find it interesting that Regulus is mentioned again, this time by Remus.
About Lupin not writing; I think Remus was being completely honest when he tells Harry why. I do think he was spending most of his time with the other werewolves, and when he wasn't, he was giving DD updates, however depressing they may have been. He is described as "bitter" when he mentions it, and there's no surprise there; he has spent all his life trying to diminish his lycanthropy, and here he was, asked to embrace it.
I also thought it was very telling when he mentions Greyback, and his hands "closed convulsively in his lap." Obviously hard for this man to talk about his attacker. And in all of that conversation, he still manages to smile and laugh. Talking about James and his "furry little problem". Always a man who tries to see the good in everyone. Something he shares with DD.
Okay, this is getting to be a long post, so I'll end here, for the time being.
Missed you all!

Kneazle, I think we agree on quite a lot! ;) :agree: to pretty much everything you've said.

I loved the conversation between Harry and Remus at Christmas. *sigh* I ate up every word and every gesture and have now forgotten them all spectacularly in the aftermath of everything else that happened. :rolleyes: Ah well, must read it again! I so wish we'd had more of that.

Is it a worrisome sign that I felt slightly sick when I was worried about him?

Only if it's wierd that, after Lupin and Tonks relationship was revealed, I got a tiny bit jealous that he was off the market.

That said, shamefully, I was bummed at the dismal amount of Remus in this book. On the other hand, the bit with him and Tonks literally made me squeal and stomp my feet in happiness.

However, I reserve the right to revoke my happiness if it is later revealed that Remus Lupin is a devout Scientologist.

Only if it's wierd that, after Lupin and Tonks relationship was revealed, I got a tiny bit jealous that he was off the market.

No, not weird. Heh, my reaction to Bill/Fleur is much the same. Actually, I'm pathetically jealous. I'm less jealous for Remus, for some reason. :p

Well, he survived! I loved the way Tonks handled it, I thought it was funny. Did anyone else cringe when they heard Fenrir Greyback's name?

Kneazle, I think we agree on quite a lot! ;) :agree: to pretty much everything you've said.

I loved the conversation between Harry and Remus at Christmas. *sigh* I ate up every word and every gesture and have now forgotten them all spectacularly in the aftermath of everything else that happened. :rolleyes: Ah well, must read it again! I so wish we'd had more of that.I think we agree on a lot, too! Reading the Christmas conversation was like a dream come true-- I loved seeing Remus and Harry in a casual setting; once again, he's teaching Harry, but this time he's a friend first and teacher second; he shows a bit of a bitter edge, but catches himself, and then is laughing and smiling warmly and... ahhh. Here's to hoping there's more of the same in HP7. :agree:

Talking about James and his "furry little problem":lol: I wonder how long it's going to take before that crops up in fanfiction.


I hope it's not too weird to guard fictional characters so jealously. I was sick with worry and felt a spectacular dart of venom for Nymphie at the end. :lol:

Shadow Phoenix-- cringe because it's scary or cringe because it's bad? :) I thought it sounded ominous when Draco mentioned it. It took me a while to get used to it... at first I thought it a bit jarring.

Oh yes, shadow, I felt a twinge when I read Fenrir's name. I'm a bit more excited, though, by his character and the possibilities for a match-up between him and Remus, or Bill, or both. O goodie, my heroes! *squee*

*raises a glass with Kneazle for HP7 and lots of Remus*

I hope it's not too weird to guard fictional characters so jealously. I was sick with worry and felt a spectacular dart of venom for Nymphie at the end. :lol:

OK, I just had a very funny mental image of Remus whispering sweet nothings to his "Nymphie." :lol: I wonder how she'd like that name? :rotfl:


I was not at all jealous, in fact, I did a bit of a whoop and a victory dance when I read that part (I say little because it was about 7am and I didn't want to wake up the neighbbors...;)).

I also loved the Christmas scene with Harry, I wish there could have been chapters of that sort of stuff! But that's just wishful thinking.

Did anyone else cringe when they heard Fenrir Greyback's name?
What do you mean?

I hated the Remus-Tonks thing, because of what it turned Tonks into. The strong woman we met in OotP becomes petulent and childish, pleading for someone to like her. And if he's already said no, and said it often, can't she leave well-enough alone? She comes off like the crushing schoolgirls chasing Harry - grabbing Remus' robes and shaking him, yelling that he should return her feelings. She puts him on the spot in an position he's clearly uncomfortable in. And in hospital, right after DD's death! It was almost embarrassing...

Awesome of the Mods to open up early!

Lupin in HBP. I was pretty disappointed about the lack of his presence in the story as a whole. I did not think that Lupin was going to be the Half-blood Prince, despite Elf and Loup's brilliantly laid out theory, but never-the-less I wish he would have been there more. I'm not sure exactly how this could have been accomplished, because there wouldn't have been much of an opportunity, other than letters for Lupin to come into the story.

About Lupin not writing; I think Remus was being completely honest when he tells Harry why. I do think he was spending most of his time with the other werewolves, and when he wasn't, he was giving DD updates, however depressing they may have been.

I agree. Lupin seems to have been working busy enough for the Order during the time between their last meeting and this one in the Weasley's home. In this case, Lupin's situation is much different than that of Sirius'. Sirius was able to write and remain in contact with Harry because he wasn't really doing anything for the Order, or anything at all for that matter. He seemed much too busy. Perhaps in order to fully fulfill his role as a spy in the werewolf community he had to immerse himself in their 'culture' that he was relatively out of contact with anyone but Dumbledore. I say 'culture' because the way that it was described when Lupin told of his work for the Order, it seemed remeniscent of Snape's penetration into the circle of Death Eaters, an organized group. It seems to me that Lupin would have described the werewolves differently if they were all acting independently of one another. As in, when Lupin says that he is working with/following the werewolves, they are doing more than just chosing to ally themselves to Voldemort. Perhaps a better word would be 'group' not 'culture'. Either way, it seems to me that Lupin wouldn't have much room to do anything else but infiltrate the werewolf's 'group'. Although, I still would very much like to see more contact, at the very least, between Lupin and Harry.

He is described as "bitter" when he mentions it, and there's no surprise there; he has spent all his life trying to diminish his lycanthropy, and here he was, asked to embrace it.

No surprise at all. It must have been dificult for Lupin to infiiltrate Greyback's presence. Especially after he found out (or at least we did) that it was Greyback who bit Lupin as a child.

As for the Lupin/Tonks ship. My heart did a back flip when that came out, and when they were holding hands at Dumbledore's funeral. In a good way. I definately approve. It was a little bit of a shock when I first read it, though. I don't know who I would see Tonks with otherwise, but still, a shock. I didn't really see that coming at all. There was something about it that just clunked into place afterwards. I was like "oh yeah, that makes sense!" It fits so marveously (sp?). I'm so happy for Lupin. I don't think that he has ever really been able/allowed to let anyone get so close to him, as some have said. I think that it will definately benefit Lupin's character. Looking beyond the fact that he will be happy being in love, the fact that he has finally lowered his defenses in this area will work to the growth of Lupin. It will be interesting to see the ramifications of his relationship with Tonks. Hopefully all for the better. Ah, love.

::toasts his glass for more Remus in HP7::





P.S. Oh, I almost forgot, I dressed up as our beloved Lupin for the release. I had so much fun!

I was pretty disappointed about the lack of his presence in the story as a whole. I did not think that Lupin was going to be the Half-blood Prince, despite Elf and Loup's brilliantly laid out theory, but never-the-less I wish he would have been there more. I'm not sure exactly how this could have been accomplished, because there wouldn't have been much of an opportunity, other than letters for Lupin to come into the story.The theories were brilliant. Had the Half-Blood Prince been a Prince, Lupin would have been a most fitting candidate. We were all hinged on the idea that the Prince was royalty (ah! what fine royalty Remus would be!), and then, typical of JK, the Half Blood Prince turns out to be a play on words. I was tipped off that the Prince was not actually royal, so at that point any hope of it being Remus flew out the window. JKR set it up so his absenteeism was believable... but still it was a disappointment that he wasn't at least as present in Harry's life as Sirius was. (Cheers on going as Lupin! Must've been a blast!)

OK, I just had a very funny mental image of Remus whispering sweet nothings to his "Nymphie." I wonder how she'd like that name? "Don't call me Nymphie, Remus! *shudders* It's Tonks." ;)

I agree with WoodenCoyote about the Tonks scene. Obviously JKR had to put it in somewhere, and in the hospital was her only real opportunity; but to me it seemed a little bit indelicate, when everyone was grieving. Tonks was already lovesick at the beginning of the book, but was happy enough at the end of OotP-- does it mean she had already approached him and been rejected? The poor man was also grieving for Sirius.

[QUOTE=Credo Buffa]To the second point: Lupin's reaction to Dumbledore's death was understandable, but, like Harry, kind of startling. We haven't seen this kind of emotional outburst from Lupin (save for maybe in the Shrieking Shack in PoA, but that was a different kind of emotion), even though he has had ample opportunity to show it. It leads me to believe that there was some kind of intense connection--even more intense than the friendship of the Marauders--between Lupin and Dumbledore. . . something so strong that he couldn't hold back.

QUOTE]

I think Remus reacted intensely knowing Dumbledore's death because it was Dumbledore who admitted him to school. Without Dumbledore, he wouldn't know Marauders, Tonks, love, ... See what other werewolves end up. He's greatly grateful to Dumbledore. He even trusted Snape only because he trusted Dumbledore.

I think Remus reacted intensely knowing Dumbledore's death because it was Dumbledore who admitted him to school. Without Dumbledore, he wouldn't know Marauders, Tonks, love, ... See what other werewolves end up. He's greatly grateful to Dumbledore. He even trusted Snape only because he trusted Dumbledore.


I'd agree with that too. Also, Dumbledore had admitted him to Hogwarts when no other school would. It was probably the shock, but I was wondering why Tonks didn't go over to comfort him, give him a hug when he sank into the chair. She was in love with him, and cared about him after all.
Then again, there wasn't too much mentioning of Sirius Black. :sigh:
Nevertheless, yes, it was heart wrenching. I keep saying that don't I?


"Don't call me Nymphie, Remus! *shudders* It's Tonks." ;)

:lol: Or how about:
"Don't call me Tonksie, Remus! It's Tonks!"
I wonder what Remus would think of "Remmie"? :eyebrows:
I can see their future now: marriage and babies. Oh yea-babies. :eyebrows: When I read about them holding hands at the funeral, my brain went into overdrive thinking of their future... :love:
I don't know who said it, but someone said that they were a bit jealous that Remus and Tonksie (great-now I'm doing it!) got together. Don't worry, I admit I was as well. :blush:

I dislike Remus/Tonks for a number of reasons.

I've never liked Tonks. She's been my least favorite character since we met her. Remus has been my favorite character since book 3. Obviously, this is just my personal oppinions, but I was very upset by their sudden declaration of love.

Tonks is young, wild, inexperienced where as Remus is solemn, hardened and wise. Tonks gets bent out of shape because he won't marry her, Remus withstands losing all his friends, poverty and of course, being a werewolf.

Also, I ship Remus/someone else I'll get in trouble for mentioned on these forms because it's banned. I cried during this part. Not Dumbledoor's death, but this really upset me. Please don't poke fun, my little sister already did.

I dislike Remus/Tonks for a number of reasons.

I've never liked Tonks. She's been my least favorite character since we met her. Remus has been my favorite character since book 3. Obviously, this is just my personal oppinions, but I was very upset by their sudden declaration of love.

Tonks is young, wild, inexperienced where as Remus is solemn, hardened and wise. Tonks gets bent out of shape because he won't marry her, Remus withstands losing all his friends, poverty and of course, being a werewolf.

Also, I ship Remus/someone else I'll get in trouble for mentioned on these forms because it's banned. I cried during this part. Not Dumbledoor's death, but this really upset me. Please don't poke fun, my little sister already did.
I hear you on the second counts, hon.

Do you ride this same sunken ship as me? I'm riding it to the depths of the ocean.

Wohoooooo! They opened early...I bow before the superior wisdom of the mods.

Okay I know that there are mixed thoughts on this subject so I will only go off once and I beg everyone's indulgence *end build-up*

GO PINK-HAIRED WEREWOLF! I have never been so happy in all my life as when I saw them together. And it has nothing to do with the fact that this is my absolutely favorite ship :whistle:. Remus has found love and who better than with another strong person who can make him laugh and will stand by his side, regardless of his lycanthropy. I did see hints of it throughout the book (subtle mentions of Remus throughout, a four legged Patronus, and Molly's attempt to get them together for dinner) and I woke up my brother with my squeals. But I will end my rant now *I will go on for pages otherwise* and say cheers to the happy couple!

Back to business...

Greyback. What a bad guy! Taking little Remus and biting him just to expand the werewolf population.:grumble: And all those other little children, dang! What a completely heartless, evil bad guy. I like him! And I agree with Mrs. Flamel, a match-up with Remus and Bill vs. Greyback would be great, although we know who would win ;).

I am sad that Elf and Loup's theory didn't totally pan out (Remus is a wickedly powerful wizard and Snape is evil incarnate *my opinion*). It is an awsome theory and I still think they should send it to Jo, she would appreciate how much work they put into it.
Mrs. Flamel
I loved the conversation between Harry and Remus at Christmas. *sigh* I ate up every word and every gesture and have now forgotten them all spectacularly in the aftermath of everything else that happened. Ah well, must read it again! I so wish we'd had more of that. I loved that scene as well. Two years without any new Remus, but it made it worth it. A fireside chat no less, with him expressing my views on the Snape situation...:).

Lupin was awesome in HBP, but it was sad too. Like I wish he would've talked to Harry more about Sirius, and helped him or something. I know Harry wasn't talking about Sirius much, but still...Lupin should've said something. And it was sad that Lupin kept avoiding Tonks, I think it was great that at the end they finally seemed to get together. Tonks was depressing though, but I'm glad she was in it a lot, but she seemed more like a fellow student than an Auror. I hope Lupin will be in book 7 a lot, because well he's one of the only original Order members, and now that Dumbledore's gone he'll probably be trying to do a lot. The whole Greybeard thing was really cool...I hope Lupin gets to be the one to get revenge on him. And I hope LUpin doesn't get killed...but somehow, I think, all the marauders will die in 7.

I won't poke fun Lady_MacBeth...I don't particularly like the Remus/Tonks ship. I wonder if the person you want with Remus is the same person I want with him...hmm

I also thought it was kind of "disrespectful" of Tonks to be so worried about Remus not liking her 5 minutes after finding out DD was dead. Show the greatest wizard ever known a little respect, geez!

I was also disappointed with the tiny part Remus played in this book, I hope he's in it more next time.

Did anyone else cringe when they heard Fenrir Greyback's name?
I certainly did... a person who enjoys eating human flesh is very very disturbing. I may be hoping for too much, but I really hope Lupin will somehow bring about the downfall of Greyback. Go Lupin! :cheers:

I hated the Remus-Tonks thing, because of what it turned Tonks into. The strong woman we met in OotP becomes petulent and childish, pleading for someone to like her. And if he's already said no, and said it often, can't she leave well-enough alone? She comes off like the crushing schoolgirls chasing Harry - grabbing Remus' robes and shaking him, yelling that he should return her feelings. She puts him on the spot in an position he's clearly uncomfortable in. And in hospital, right after DD's death! It was almost embarrassing...
I actually saw it very differently. I saw her not as pleading with Lupin to love her back, but pleading with him to love himself enough to accept that someone else loved him. His reasons for objecting to her--his age, his financial situation, his dangerous situation, his not being a "whole" person--weren't things wrong with her, they were things wrong with himself from which he wanted to protect her. I think Tonks was so worn down because she was having to watch Lupin, someone she really cares about, get more and more depressed the whole time. . . she wanted to be there for him, but he wouldn't let her.

Mrs. Weasley also indicates that Lupin's reasons for pushing Tonks away are more excuses than real reasons, because she obviously loves him in spite of them. I think he's uncomfortable with the situation because he's not used to letting people get that close to him, which is especially important right after DD's death. Perhaps his more highly emotional outburst at hearing of the tragedy is an indication that Lupin is getting to the point where he desperately needs to let his feelings out rather than consistently being calm and rational on the outside all the time. We've seen from his book that Tonks is a very outwardly emotional person, where we've had plenty of evidence that Lupin keeps mostly to himself on these things (part of the reason that the revelation was so surprising in the end, because Lupin wasn't giving any indication of any extreme agitation like Tonks). At the end here, though, all that is finally bubbling to the surface.

I mean, really, the more I talk about it, the more I think this is going to be a good thing for the both of them, Lupin especially. Tonks can be an emotional outlet for him, and he really needs that right now. I really do think, too, that Tonks was quite mature about the situation. Like I said, she's not pleading for him to love her. . . the only time we even see them in the same room at the same time is at the very end, so I get the sense that she has found it best, in whatever situations possible, to just avoid him entirely (remember that glare that Molly shoots at Lupin when she says that Tonks will probably be spending Christmas alone, which Harry interprets as her being upset about Fleur and Bill?). She doesn't want to push him. . . but in the end here, she sees a kind of mirror image of her feelings reflected in Fleur and Bill, and no doubt the wheels in Lupin's brain are turning at the sight of that as well. I think her "outburst" at the end was a final straw, and Lupin needed that.

I actually saw it very differently. I saw her not as pleading with Lupin to love her back, but pleading with him to love himself enough to accept that someone else loved him. His reasons for objecting to her--his age, his financial situation, his dangerous situation, his not being a "whole" person--weren't things wrong with her, they were things wrong with himself from which he wanted to protect her. I think Tonks was so worn down because she was having to watch Lupin, someone she really cares about, get more and more depressed the whole time. . . she wanted to be there for him, but he wouldn't let her.
Very well said! I was surprised at Tonks/Lupin relationship, but i'm glad Lupin has finally realised that he does deserve to be loved and lead a normal life, regardless of his 'problem'.

Though I did find it a bit disturbing that Tonks would bring up the subject of love during such a sad moment, I think we need to remember what Mrs. Weasley said about people's actions during Dark Times: things like love and marriage are at the forefront of their thoughts simply because they are not sure if they will be around much longer. Perhaps Dumbledore's death, coupled with Bill's injury, made Tonks realize that Remus himself might not be around much longer, and this caused her to discuss her love for him in a less than ideal setting.

ETA: Credo, as usual, you took the words right out of my mouth, yet said them much more eloquently! :)

Hmm I wonder

It starts with S and ends with irius

But then I've said too much.

Here's why I don't like Tonks: She's such a canon Mary-sue. Young Auror? Colorful hair? Who wouldn't want to be her? Oh sure she's clumsy, what a fault. I don't trust her myself.

I think it is good that James is not the only Marauder with romance! I loved the Christmas Scene.

I do think OotP has some clues to this romance. They were either together or not on the missions with the kids. The way Tonks told him her name sounds as if he knows but they are just being flirty. And Harry is who we pick up info from and Harry is not always good with romantic issues. Ginny or Hermione might have already know, they are good at picking up these kind of vibes.

As for Greyback,....He is SICK! I was suprised to know that the guy who bit Remus intended to do so and specifically targeted him. For Something his Father did (cough*snape*cough)

Tonks is young, wild, inexperienced where as Remus is solemn, hardened and wise. Tonks gets bent out of shape because he won't marry her, Remus withstands losing all his friends, poverty and of course, being a werewolf.
I don't know where all this marriage talk is coming from. . . like the fact that Bill and Fleur are getting married means that Tonks wants to marry Lupin too? I don't think what we saw at the end there was any indication that either of them has that on their minds just yet. We saw them hold hands, which is really a pretty sweet, innocent gesture. Lupin's not about to give himself up that completely yet.

I'm actually amazing myself how strongly I'm pushing this thing, now, considering that I hated the prospect just a few days ago. It was a ship I never liked as well, for a lot of the reasons you list her, Lady_MacBeth. But honestly, my first thought when I saw how worn Tonks seemed to be at the beginning of the story was how much her grief--as it appeared to be--reminded me of Lupin. . . a thought which immediately brought me back to this ship (I kid you not, this is what I was thinking, oddly enough). She was very quiet about it, not letting much on, trying to get on with her life and work in spite of it. She doesn't have the air of someone throwing a tantrum or being superfluously upset because someone "won't like her back." This is something that's really gutting her, but she's determined to remain mature about it. By the time the scene in the hospital wing came about, I was fully of the belief that Tonks had proven herself worthy for Lupin.

Ahh, interesting ship Lady, but no, that is not the one I sail.

Mine is Remus and Hermione...but the age difference is such that most people dislike it.

I once read a wonderful Remus/Hermione story. It involved time travel of course.

Although I ship that other ship, I really don't mind other things. Unless they involve Tonks.

Sorry I just don't like the girl at all. Also, that ability of her unnerves me. How do we really know what she looks like at all?

Something that bothered me is how JK seems to backpedal on her protrayl of werewolves. Its always been that werewolves are nothing more than ill humans, perfectly normal and harmless save for their condition. Now we learn that most have defected to join LV, and from Harry's words Remus is made out to be one good person in a sea of bad ones [ he's "normal" aka different from his fellows ]. Then we're introduced to Greyback, who is vicious, bloodthirsty and evil. Not a good message, here...

Many people are saying that they feel as if the relationship between Remus and Tonks was just sort of sprung on, but I have to disagree. I mean, I can see how they felt that it was overdone and all, what with everyone all of a sudden dating and snogging and everything. But it seemed to me that there were a lot of subtle hints placed about the two, especially in OotP, which is when I first got the idea. I'm probably biased though, I've been in love with this ship ever since I finished OotP.

In OotP it seems that Remus and Tonks are almost always placed togther when they were mentioned. Most of it was at random and they were just phrases like "Remus and Tonks were sitting next to each other." "Remus and Tonks did this." I got the impression that they were somewhat close, at least friends.

And a lot of hints were made at the ship during HBP also. Molly did always mention Remus in front of Tonks and there was one part that went something along the lines of Molly giving Remus a look that made it seem that it was his fault that Tonks wouldn't be married into the family. (This was obviously during the period where it appeared that she wanted Tonks to be with Bill instead of Fleur.)

And about the last conversation with them being forced...These books are shown from Harry's point of view, minus a few beginning chapters. Harry was rarely around Remus and Tonks, especially together, and it appeared that Remus and Tonks had kept it quiet from the 'kids.' Obviously Harry wouldn't have been around when Tonks and Remus were debating on whether it would be a good idea to have a relationship. Fleur had just shown qualities in her love for Bill that Tonks shares in her love for Remus and she took the opportunity to voice her own opinion, which does seem like something that Tonks would do.

But anyway, I'm sorry to have turned that into an essay. I know I'm new around here and everything but I just felt like voicing my opinion. I do wish there had been more with Remus though, I had expected a good talk with Harry about Sirius...

Wooden! Hey, glad to see you!
I agree, I think the werewolf thing will come into play big time. (oh no, predictions already?) Lupin will have to face Greyback, and in doing so, can show the other ww's that you can live a fairly normal life.

Sorry I just don't like the girl at all. Also, that ability of her unnerves me. How do we really know what she looks like at all?
I was under the impression that we were seeing a "neutral" Tonks throughout almost this entire book, i.e. Tonks without any kind of metamorphic power. I can remember who mentioned it, but it was said that she hadn't been able to change her appearance the way she had been, and she's described as having the same "mousy brown hair" the whole time, which hardly seems like a hairstyle that Tonks would choose for herself if she could. I think that her being so profoundly upset over the situation caused her to maintain her "natural" appearance throughout the whole story (until the end, when she has her pink hair again), and it made me like her and accept this relationship even more, because it's really a testament to the kind of profound emotional strain this has caused her when you can see that she is, in so many ways, left in this vulnerable state because of it.

I didn't mind it because it was sudden. I minded it because Tonk's is young, stupid and not right for him.

Something that bothered me is how JK seems to backpedal on her protrayl of werewolves. Its always been that werewolves are nothing more than ill humans, perfectly normal and harmless save for their condition. Now we learn that most have defected to join LV, and from Harry's words Remus is made out to be one good person in a sea of bad ones [ he's "normal" aka different from his fellows ]. Then we're introduced to Greyback, who is vicious, bloodthirsty and evil. Not a good message, here...

I think this goes back to what Sirius told Harry in Ootp--how there were many people when Voldemort first gained power who felt he was doing the right thing. The werewolves aren't necessarily given many rights in the wizarding world, so why not join forces with Voldemort--they have much to gain (or so they think). Also, from what I gather, some of these werewolves were bitten by Greyback and then raised away from their parents, "raise[d] to hate normal wizards." I think Voldemort is wise in using Greyback to marshal the werewolves, simply because his horrific nature and hatred of the wizarding society is most likely a powerful attribute for him--if he can't convince them using words as Voldemort once did, he can always threaten them into following him. If this doesn't make sense, I apologize--I'm getting tired.

Credo, it was either Hermione or Ginny who talk aboat Tonks. I'm pretty sure it was Hermione. And I agree, we are seeing a Tonks who is so upset that she can't perform her magic as she should. It's not all part of the leftover effects from the MoM battle; she is in love and heartbroken. Interesting to think about in light of Harry and Ginny?

Greyback has some serious mental issues to work on....
I think that Tonks will be a good moral boost for Lupin, if he will just let down his guard a little and get some self esteem. Too old, too poor, and too dangerous? You're a WEREWOLF, baby, get use to it, it isn't gonna change so you just have to tuck in your tail and go on with your furry self.
maybe tonks finds very, overly hairy wolfish men attractive...i know i do....did i just say that outloud?

Something that bothered me is how JK seems to backpedal on her protrayl of werewolves. Its always been that werewolves are nothing more than ill humans, perfectly normal and harmless save for their condition. Now we learn that most have defected to join LV, and from Harry's words Remus is made out to be one good person in a sea of bad ones [ he's "normal" aka different from his fellows ]. Then we're introduced to Greyback, who is vicious, bloodthirsty and evil. Not a good message, here...
I don't think JKR ever wanted to give us the impression that all werewolves are along the same lines as Lupin. Remember that two of JKR's major themes for the series are prejudice and choice, both of which are demonstrated in Greyback and this werewolf community in which Lupin is having to immerse himself. On the lines of prejudice, we now see an honest reason why most people in the wizarding world have a legitimate fear of werewolves, because there are so many that are worthy of being feared even in their human form. I think it further serves to outline the plight of a person like Lupin, who is not only having to combat an unfair prejudice, but one that is rooted in something that really deserves to be feared, which is likely to take much longer to leave the minds of the wizarding world and let someone honest and good like himself in.

Along the lines of choice, I don't think this is any different than Harry asking the Sorting Hat to put him in Gryffindor rather than Slytherin. Lupin had the choice long ago to pursue this darker path, but he didn't. I don't think we have anything to fear about him turning over to this kind of behavior, at least not by his own will, if that is what you are implying, WoodenCoyote. This is just another great example of how choices, especially between (to quote Dumbledore in the GoF movie trailer, ironically enough) "what is right, and what is easy" affect ourselves and others in very real ways with very real consequences.

maybe tonks finds very, overly hairy wolfish men attractive...i know i do....did i just say that outloud?
Hey, you are among the Lupinites! We all find overly hairy wolfish men attractive! :p Although Lupin is hardly overly hairy and wolfish most of the time.

I think that in the build-up to the revelation of Remus' & Tonks' relationship, JK threw a few clues in:

- When Harry first sets step in The Burrow & finds Tonks looking "drawn, even ill, and there was something forced in her smile" (HBP, UK ed, p 82) and
- When Harry observes Lupin at Xmas looking "thinner and more ragged-looking than ever...sitting beside the fire, staring int its the depths" (HBP, UK ed, p 319-310) with Celestina's song voice in the background (about love). JK continues the scene with quotes of the songs' lyrics, to emphasise that Lupin is deeply thinking about something, or more like, someone: whether he is worthy for Tonks or not.

I don't think we have anything to fear about him turning over to this kind of behavior, at least not by his own will, if that is what you are implying, WoodenCoyote.
I thought you knew me well enough to know I would never imply that [ its a far cry from what I was saying in my post anyway ]

In light of the frantic nature of this forum, I'm reposting a question I had earlier that might have been overlooked:

"...they have shunned normal society and live on the margins, stealing--and sometimes killing--to eat." --Lupin, on his work as a spy among werewolves, pg. 334



My question is about the Werewolf Registry and what we've discussed it might do. Are these werewolves who are killing people registered? If not, how did they escape being registered? And if they are, how come the Ministry isn't doing something about the murders they are committing? You'd think the Ministry would want to show it was doing something during these times. My guess is that these particular werewolves aren't registered, but that begs the question--how'd they escape that? I don't think all of them were children who were dragged away by Greyback, but I could be wrong.

I was a bit disappointed that Lupin hadn't taken up duty as official-sender-of-encouraging-owls-to-Harry but oh well... he did say it would have given him away toward the end...



Yeah, I was really hoping that Lupin would be more god-fatherly with Harry. God I miss Sirius!!!

And I really hope Lupin and Tonks get married or something. I'd love to see their kids.

Yeah, I was really hoping that Lupin would be more god-fatherly with Harry. God I miss Sirius!!!
I miss Sirius as well. :sad: I was really hoping for a heart-to-heart talk between Remmie and Harry about Sirius. :sigh:

And I really hope Lupin and Tonks get married or something. I'd love to see their kids.
Finally! Someone who shares my views! :D

I never in my wildest dreams did I think JKR would ship Tonks and Remus! :clap: I was so happy when I read it. I would have been happier if the overall context would have been a bit more cheerful. I was trying not to cry at the time.

- When Harry observes Lupin at Xmas looking "thinner and more ragged-looking than ever...sitting beside the fire, staring int its the depths" (HBP, UK ed, p 319-310) with Celestina's song voice in the background (about love). JK continues the scene with quotes of the songs' lyrics, to emphasise that Lupin is deeply thinking about something, or more like, someone: whether he is worthy for Tonks or not.
I knew she (Jo) was up to something in this scene. I thought that he was just thinking about his mission, but the way she kept bracketing his words with the song lyrics made me suspicious...

I also began to wonder when we saw Tonks' patronus and Snape made the comment about it looking "weak." Very sneaky. :evil:

I actually saw it very differently. I saw her not as pleading with Lupin to love her back, but pleading with him to love himself enough to accept that someone else loved him. His reasons for objecting to her--his age, his financial situation, his dangerous situation, his not being a "whole" person--weren't things wrong with her, they were things wrong with himself from which he wanted to protect her. I think Tonks was so worn down because she was having to watch Lupin, someone she really cares about, get more and more depressed the whole time. . . she wanted to be there for him, but he wouldn't let her.
That's exactly the way I took this scene. Tonks was telling him that he was worthy of love, that he should not be surprised that someone might love him.

I also found it interesting how Mrs. Weasley reacts to Remus during his conversation with Tonks.

"I've said all along you're taking a ridiculous line on this, Remus," said Mrs. Weasley

How many times have we seen Lupin trying to keep Mrs. Weasley in line, using one of his firm statements to help her see the other side of a situation? And now we see the table turned, and Mrs. Weasley helping Lupin out. I think it's sweet that she cares for him that much.
This scene also made me wonder just how much Mrs Weasley knew about Remus and Tonks' personal problems!


Well, he survived! I loved the way Tonks handled it, I thought it was funny. Did anyone else cringe when they heard Fenrir Greyback's name?
I did because it made me think of Fenris Ulf from The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe!
:huh:

Now I worry about Death By Greyback, especially now that we know that there will be no death by poking!

Now I worry about Death By Greyback, especially now that we know that there will be no death by poking!
I think that would be a good idea to put into our signatures. However, I'm keeping "No Death by Poking" as I think it has some kind of ring to it.

ETA: Who in the world was Fenris Ulf? :huh: Was he that guy who arrested Tumnus or something?

JKR set it up so his absenteeism was believable... but still it was a disappointment that he wasn't at least as present in Harry's life as Sirius was. (Cheers on going as Lupin! Must've been a blast!)

Oh it was :D!

I too hoped (and still do) that Lupin would take up Sirius' role as god-father-in-chief. It still baffles me that Lupin and Harry have never had the same relationship that Harry had with Sirius. I can pretty much develop an argument as to why inside my head, and I am sure it has been addressed in the previous versions of the All About Remus Lupin threads, but it still strikes me as odd to say the least.

My question is about the Werewolf Registry and what we've discussed it might do. Are these werewolves who are killing people registered? If not, how did they escape being registered? And if they are, how come the Ministry isn't doing something about the murders they are committing?

It is possible that the Ministry simply over-looked the multitute of werewolves that were unregistered. Much in the same way that the Ministry has not yet come down on Harry for using the Unforgivable curses. I'm sure that if there was a group of werewolves that were killing people left and right, the Ministry would hold that in a higher regard than a boy doing a curse, even if that curse, like killing someone, lands you in Azkaban for life. Also, if the group of werewolves who were killing people in their transformed form, it is also possible that they were able to get away from the scene before the Ministry was able to get there. Not that werewolves are overly fast, but I'm sure that they could get away in a hurry if they wanted to.

Speaking of which, we know that a were wolf cannot control his or her actions while they are transformed, and the way that Fenrir always bites people with intention is to make sure he transforms while they are near. Lupin says that they resort to "stealing and killing" in order to eat. First off that doesn't nescesarily mean that they are killing during there werewolf forms, but when they are transformed, they wouldn't have any control (as far as we have seen) over who they kill. It seemed to me that the werewolves who are stealing and killing to get food are doing this more in their human forms, not just on *** full moon. Anyways, do we ever find out for sure that Umbridge managed to cram that registration act through to law? Forgive me if I overlooked something in my first reading of HBP.

I just realized that this was slightly off topic, more on Fenrir and the other werewolves than Lupin, we don't want this thread to get shut down, now do we?

I was really hoping for a heart-to-heart talk between Remmie and Harry about Sirius.

I was too :agree:. I figured that at the very least Harry would seek out Lupin to talk to him about Sirius' death. All Harry did was grumble on about how Lupin never wrote him, or rather that he never got letters from anyone except for when Sirius was alive. For some reason, it seemed to me that Harry was almost completely over Sirius' death in this book. Not completely, but almost. He still missed his godfather, but I had assumed that he would seek out Lupin for emotional support.

Oh it was :D!

I too hoped (and still do) that Lupin would take up Sirius' role as god-father-in-chief. It still baffles me that Lupin and Harry have never had the same relationship that Harry had with Sirius. I can pretty much develop an argument as to why inside my head, and I am sure it has been addressed in the previous versions of the All About Remus Lupin threads, but it still strikes me as odd to say the least.
Hey, if you can remember/find your argument, feel free to post it here. :) I'd love to read it. I suddenly thought of Lupin's line at the end of OotP (when Mad-Eye shows his eye to Uncle Vernon :rotfl: ): "Keep in touch Harry." So sad that Harry didn't-at least during the school year. We don't have evidence of him keeping in touch with Lupin during the holidays, however. Perhaps he did so?


I was too :agree:. I figured that at the very least Harry would seek out Lupin to talk to him about Sirius' death. All Harry did was grumble on about how Lupin never wrote him, or rather that he never got letters from anyone except for when Sirius was alive. For some reason, it seemed to me that Harry was almost completely over Sirius' death in this book. Not completely, but almost. He still missed his godfather, but I had assumed that he would seek out Lupin for emotional support.
In fact, when JKR wrote about HP's thoughts that Remus could've sent him a letter at least occasionally, I was like "Why don't you send him one, you dolt!" :lol: I mean, really, one has to take initiative don't they? Typical Harry. :rolleyes: ;)

WoodenCoyote
Something that bothered me is how JK seems to backpedal on her protrayl of werewolves. Its always been that werewolves are nothing more than ill humans, perfectly normal and harmless save for their condition. Now we learn that most have defected to join LV, and from Harry's words Remus is made out to be one good person in a sea of bad ones [ he's "normal" aka different from his fellows ]. Then we're introduced to Greyback, who is vicious, bloodthirsty and evil. Not a good message, here... So would this mean that now werewolves are being portrayed as bad as the wizarding world fears? *trying to understand, please bear with me* That we were given the image of Remus as a suffering martyr, unjustly prejudiced against and shunned, and that all werewolves are such and now we see reason to believe that this is not the case?

I would say it is both, which would go back to choice. There is no denying that lycanthropy presents a very real threat to others and Jo has never downplayed this. Remus resigns because he could have killed or infected one of the trio, Sirius, or Snape. We are also presented with the fact that lycanthropy is no joke through the WW incident. Snape was in very real danger that night and that's not something that Jo has skipped over. Even Sirius admits that he shouldn't have done it *his views on this are a whole nother thread*.

With Remus in PoA we were given a werewolf who rises above his situation and makes the right choice. He fights as hard as he can to subdue the monster inside and to prevent others from sharing this horrible disease. In HBP Jo is showing us the other path, the path of those who chose evil. There are always two sides to a coin and Jo is showing us what would happen if there were not those who fought to be good with all that is in them. Greyback chooses to infect people for his own ends, without regard for others and the harm he is doing. Where Remus leaves the school to protect those the kids and has taught them tolerance, Greyback hunts them down, attacks, and teaches them hate.

I actually found this side of lycanthropy as strengthening my view of Remus. How easy would it be for him to stop fighting and give in? To harm those who treat him like dirt and show them what its like to be him. To be with those who experience the same thing he is going through and understand his frustration (think Umbridge in Ootp). From what we've seen there is always the wolf inside waiting to come out and Remus fights it. He restrains his animal nature when its not a full moon as he can't help it when he transforms, no Wolfsbane :sad:. Greyback's choice to inflict harm and hate emphasises how good and strong a character Remus in his teaching of acceptance.

I'm not saying that werewolves should be shunned or that the Wizarding community is right in treating them as animals to be feared. There is danger with being a werewolf (which with Wolfsbane can be controled) but this is no excuse to treat them as they do. The wizarding world has created Greyback and if they do not end their ways more harm will come. But then Greyback is reinforcing their fears which leads them to believe that they need to fear werewolves and it all comes back in a viscious circle.

And since I've gone way off topic and this post is getting kinda long I will stop my rant.
Credo
Hey, you are among the Lupinites! We all find overly hairy wolfish men attractive! Although Lupin is hardly overly hairy and wolfish most of the time. You're forgetting the tache :p

Lupin's reaction to Dumbledore's death was understandable, but, like Harry, kind of startling. We haven't seen this kind of emotional outburst from Lupin (save for maybe in the Shrieking Shack in PoA, but that was a different kind of emotion), even though he has had ample opportunity to show it. It leads me to believe that there was some kind of intense connection--even more intense than the friendship of the Marauders--between Lupin and Dumbledore. . . something so strong that he couldn't hold back.

You bring up some very interesting points. I did find it, not weird and unnecessary, a bit startling when Lupin collapsed. It was understandable but shocking. I figured, like you said, maybe there was some sort of connection between the two. hopefully we'll get more information about this in book 7, as well as more Remus in general.

Awesome of the Mods to open up early!

Lupin in HBP. I was pretty disappointed about the lack of his presence in the story as a whole. I did not think that Lupin was going to be the Half-blood Prince, despite Elf and Loup's brilliantly laid out theory, but never-the-less I wish he would have been there more. I'm not sure exactly how this could have been accomplished, because there wouldn't have been much of an opportunity, other than letters for Lupin to come into the story.

i definetly agree. I was very upset when there was no mention of him for a bit. Even though I didn't think he was the HBP, i expected more of him as possibly like a godfather figure because of Sirius. Lupin seemed like someone Harry would go to.




I agree. Lupin seems to have been working busy enough for the Order during the time between their last meeting and this one in the Weasley's home. In this case, Lupin's situation is much different than that of Sirius'. Sirius was able to write and remain in contact with Harry because he wasn't really doing anything for the Order, or anything at all for that matter. He seemed much too busy. Perhaps in order to fully fulfill his role as a spy in the werewolf community he had to immerse himself in their 'culture' that he was relatively out of contact with anyone but Dumbledore. I say 'culture' because the way that it was described when Lupin told of his work for the Order, it seemed remeniscent of Snape's penetration into the circle of Death Eaters, an organized group. It seems to me that Lupin would have described the werewolves differently if they were all acting independently of one another. As in, when Lupin says that he is working with/following the werewolves, they are doing more than just chosing to ally themselves to Voldemort. Perhaps a better word would be 'group' not 'culture'. Either way, it seems to me that Lupin wouldn't have much room to do anything else but infiltrate the werewolf's 'group'. Although, I still would very much like to see more contact, at the very least, between Lupin and Harry.

Yes, Lupin was busy and did have a reason he couldn't write. It's better than him totally neglecting Harry (which i don't think he would do). I didn't think much on the word "culture" *ponders*. I guess it's an okay word. Better than like cult or tribe or something...


::toasts his glass for more Remus in HP7::

hear, hear! :agree: *toasts as well*

Well, he survived! I loved the way Tonks handled it, I thought it was funny. Did anyone else cringe when they heard Fenrir Greyback's name?

YES!! I hate him... we need a club... "Greyback Haters" or something..

I loved the conversation between Harry and Remus at Christmas. *sigh* I ate up every word and every gesture and have now forgotten them all spectacularly in the aftermath of everything else that happened. :rolleyes: Ah well, must read it again! I so wish we'd had more of that.

I loved that conversation. I re-read it a few times because I just loved hearing them talk again. Did anyone else like how Harry said "What have you been up to lately?" (pg. 334)? I thought it was interesting just how he could address Lupin like that... not so much as formal as normal and just relax.. like he feels more open with him. That's what i hoped would happen, after Sirius's death and all.

I hated the Remus-Tonks thing, because of what it turned Tonks into. The strong woman we met in OotP becomes petulent and childish, pleading for someone to like her. And if he's already said no, and said it often, can't she leave well-enough alone? She comes off like the crushing schoolgirls chasing Harry - grabbing Remus' robes and shaking him, yelling that he should return her feelings. She puts him on the spot in an position he's clearly uncomfortable in. And in hospital, right after DD's death! It was almost embarrassing...

I agree on some terms. Remus had already expressed that he did not -not want to be with her necessarily- want to get involved because he didn't think it was a good idea. I think he was more disappointed in himself, and the fact that he felt he wasn't good enough for her, than he was resentful of her constant attempt to get her to be with him. He also tends to push people away, out of I think, fear of hurting them. So I think Tonks' emotions also came from that and her being frustrated that he wouldn't open up to her.

I actually saw it very differently. I saw her not as pleading with Lupin to love her back, but pleading with him to love himself enough to accept that someone else loved him. His reasons for objecting to her--his age, his financial situation, his dangerous situation, his not being a "whole" person--weren't things wrong with her, they were things wrong with himself from which he wanted to protect her. I think Tonks was so worn down because she was having to watch Lupin, someone she really cares about, get more and more depressed the whole time. . . she wanted to be there for him, but he wouldn't let her.

Mrs. Weasley also indicates that Lupin's reasons for pushing Tonks away are more excuses than real reasons, because she obviously loves him in spite of them. I think he's uncomfortable with the situation because he's not used to letting people get that close to him, which is especially important right after DD's death. Perhaps his more highly emotional outburst at hearing of the tragedy is an indication that Lupin is getting to the point where he desperately needs to let his feelings out rather than consistently being calm and rational on the outside all the time. We've seen from his book that Tonks is a very outwardly emotional person, where we've had plenty of evidence that Lupin keeps mostly to himself on these things (part of the reason that the revelation was so surprising in the end, because Lupin wasn't giving any indication of any extreme agitation like Tonks). At the end here, though, all that is finally bubbling to the surface.

I mean, really, the more I talk about it, the more I think this is going to be a good thing for the both of them, Lupin especially. Tonks can be an emotional outlet for him, and he really needs that right now. I really do think, too, that Tonks was quite mature about the situation. Like I said, she's not pleading for him to love her. . . the only time we even see them in the same room at the same time is at the very end, so I get the sense that she has found it best, in whatever situations possible, to just avoid him entirely (remember that glare that Molly shoots at Lupin when she says that Tonks will probably be spending Christmas alone, which Harry interprets as her being upset about Fleur and Bill?). She doesn't want to push him. . . but in the end here, she sees a kind of mirror image of her feelings reflected in Fleur and Bill, and no doubt the wheels in Lupin's brain are turning at the sight of that as well. I think her "outburst" at the end was a final straw, and Lupin needed that.

I agree completely :agree: :tu:


Everyone keeps saying that they wanted Lupin and Harry to have a discussion about Sirius (don't get me wrong, i did too!)... but he didn't want to talk. Maybe, now that Dumbledore is gone, as well as Sirius, Harry may go to Lupin finally about both of the two. I can't see anyone else that Harry could really go to anymore. Then again maybe I'm just hoping for more Lupin...

YES!! I hate him... we need a club... "Greyback Haters" or something...


How about the Society for the Taming of Greyback?

He certainly needs some manners!


I think Lupin realized Harry had enough on his plate and didn't need to put more there by bringing up his feelings about Sirius' death. And perhaps Lupin himself was having a hard time with it and didn't feel like he'd be the right person to discuss Sirius with Harry at the time. Lupin seems like the type of person who doesn't necessarily bring up subjects around other people--he waits for them to come to him. Perhaps he is waiting for Harry to make the first move regarding Sirius.

Hello! Boy did I miss you people!

As for Lupin's Wolfsbane: Here's a quote from pg. 332-333: "But I do not forget that during the year I taught at Hogwarts, Severus made the Wolfsbane Potion for me every month, made it perfectly, so that I did not have to suffer as I uaually do at the full moon."
This leads me to believe that Remus hasn't had the Wolfsbane since he resigned. Mostly because of the phrases "during the year" and "usually do."

As for the Pink-haired Werewolf: I expected this since OotP... even though I was incredibly jealous. I noticed how (in OotP) they referred to each other as "Mooney" and "Nymphadora." There seemed to be a casual playfulness in their relationship, and perhaps a bit of opposites attracting. I think Remus may have shut down a bit (or a lot) after Sirius' death... and perhaps avoided Tonks especially because he'd rather "numb out." I also think, in his mind, it was for her own good. I'm sure he worried about what would happen to her if he got on Fenrir's bad side (not that he has a good side... but you know what I mean!) and that many of the DEs have grudges against him. He probably thought it best if she were not involved at all. I think her little scene in the hospital wing was her just putting the cards out on the table. Sort of challenging him to deal with things, and maybe enjoy life a bit.

As for Remus' emotions: I thought this was totally right on. Think about it... DD was really one of the last people alive who had ever really stood by Remus and had his back. (We know the kids do of course... but that's in a different way.) Remus just realized that everyone who had consistently stood by him, throughout his whole life, was gone. I think he probably felt alone at that moment, which is another reason I think Tonks said what she said. It was kind of a "There's still someone here for you" thing.

I am highly dissapointed with this book!

I think it has become obvious that Lupin doesn't count for Jo. He is not a major character and he will never be one.

Yes she likes him and she looked forward to writting him, but so what? She didn't make him present in GOF and in OOTP and in HBP is barely there.

It is obvious that there will not be any special connection between him and Harry. No menthor thimng, not comfort, nothing. They care about each other, but each goes on his way.

Harry opened the door in HBP. he proved that he did want Lupin to be there for him, but Lupin wasn't. Yes, he had reasons, but the fact remains the same: Lupin wasn't there for him and now it is too late. Harry is too independent now, he will go on his way. he doesn't need a menthor anylonger.

So, I think there is no reason to hope that Lupin will do something really great in these books.

He will probably appear in book 7, have a confrontation with the other werewolves, maybe got hurt and that will be it. I am convinced now that he will survive the series, but so what? If we don't get to see him much, it doesn't even matter that much.

In some twisted way I wish that he was the one to die in boo5, thus I would have avoided all this suffering. I am really sad right now. 2, 3 years is a too long period of time. I no longer have energy to hope that Jo will finally pay any attention to Remus.

The way I see things Arthur will probably become the head of the Order, much surprisingly, and Snape- I hate to admit it- may turn into a hero. And where does this leaves Remus? Nowhere.

The romance with Tonks was unexepected and too much fanfic like and I didn't like it at all. I am glad that R4emus has someone, but the romance was very poorly written- what was that thing with Tonks being a complete idiot?- and I didn't expect Jo to really pair so many people. I am really dissapointed with her right now.

So, as you probably see I am not in a good mood. Not much about Lupin to keep us talking for 3 years, until book 7 is out. And I know that she said 2, but if she starts at the end of the year and it takes half of year to publish it, who would think that she will actually finish the book in a year. And the fact that the book will be shorter than OOTP is not good news.

She hasn't answered many things in HBP, the way she said she will. On the contrary, she has given us even more questions. How she will manage to solve everything in a book I don't know. It will probably be some kind of soap opera finish where everything is solved in a chapter, after y4ears and years of endless chapters.

Did anyone else find Tonks and Lupin to be really bizarre? I'd seen it on this forum of course, but I never saw any evidence for it except that we had two single people and not a lot else to do with them. I don't see the point of it.

And I can only assume the whole werewolf thing and Greyback and all is a plotline for book 7, because it didn't seem to go anywhere this time, except for us now knowing who he is and how much we all want to see him die for what he did to Lupin.

Oh and Bill. I assume his injuries must be relevant to book 7 as well and count for something more than proving that Fleur loved him, which I didn't doubt personally. I thought all the women were pretty horrible to her. She's not perfect, but I never disliked her. Plus it gives us a wedding to start the next book with!

Gottalovelupin - I feel the same way on all points. Its now been 2 days since I finished the book, and I'm still uncomfortable with it. It left me very unsatisfied, and hard as I try I can't bring myself to be excited about the new developments :(

I hated the Remus-Tonks thing, because of what it turned Tonks into. The strong woman we met in OotP becomes petulent and childish, pleading for someone to like her. And if he's already said no, and said it often, can't she leave well-enough alone? She comes off like the crushing schoolgirls chasing Harry - grabbing Remus' robes and shaking him, yelling that he should return her feelings. She puts him on the spot in an position he's clearly uncomfortable in. And in hospital, right after DD's death! It was almost embarrassing...

:agree: Especially on the embarrassing bit... but then, what we will do for love, right? *tries to convince self*

I saw her not as pleading with Lupin to love her back, but pleading with him to love himself enough to accept that someone else loved him.
...
I think this is going to be a good thing for the both of them

I think you are correct in that Tonks was pleading for Lupin to think highly enough of himself to let someone in, but I'm still disappointed in all the romances of the book. Really, I'm happy for him, but I felt Tonks was way too weak. I can understand, I guess, being upset over a guy like Remus, but still.

For me, I just think that Jo threw the romances in and didn't develop them because she tried to do too many.

Please don't poke fun, my little sister already did.
No poking here! (see the sig, which isn't exactly relevant.) No really, I understand. *pats your back sympathetically* But no ship is ever truly sunk. ;)

For Something his Father did (cough*snape*cough)
??? How do you figure Snape in?

JK seems to backpedal on her protrayl of werewolves.

While I will agree with you that our view of werewolves has suddenly changed, I wonder if the view was not one created by her. I'll start with hobbitseeker's post:

Are these werewolves who are killing people registered?

I doubt that. If Fenrir is off biting kiddos and taking them from their parents, I'll bet most of the kids aren't registered. How would they be? Their parents would have had to know what happened, be alive still, and be willing to share that information. I believe very few would be in that situation.

So, if there are loads of unregistered werewolves running about, then how would we really know much about them? Newt Scamander said things that painted them as much tamer than they are, more along the lines of Remus, who seems a special case. But how would he have known what werewolves are like, then, really? We had been assuming that people fears were unfounded, that most werewolves were really not that bad, but we only knew Remus and had read Fantastic Beasts. It is a bit disappointing, yes, that popular opinion seems to have been correct.

*hugs* to gottalove. I can understand so much of your feelings, though I don't share them all as strongly (though some I do!)

I am highly dissapointed with this book!

I think it has become obvious that Lupin doesn't count for Jo. He is not a major character and he will never be one.

Yes she likes him and she looked forward to writting him, but so what? She didn't make him present in GOF and in OOTP and in HBP is barely there.

It is obvious that there will not be any special connection between him and Harry. No menthor thimng, not comfort, nothing. They care about each other, but each goes on his way.

Harry opened the door in HBP. he proved that he did want Lupin to be there for him, but Lupin wasn't. Yes, he had reasons, but the fact remains the same: Lupin wasn't there for him and now it is too late. Harry is too independent now, he will go on his way. he doesn't need a menthor anylonger.

So, I think there is no reason to hope that Lupin will do something really great in these books.

He will probably appear in book 7, have a confrontation with the other werewolves, maybe got hurt and that will be it. I am convinced now that he will survive the series, but so what? If we don't get to see him much, it doesn't even matter that much.

In some twisted way I wish that he was the one to die in boo5, thus I would have avoided all this suffering. I am really sad right now. 2, 3 years is a too long period of time. I no longer have energy to hope that Jo will finally pay any attention to Remus.

The way I see things Arthur will probably become the head of the Order, much surprisingly, and Snape- I hate to admit it- may turn into a hero. And where does this leaves Remus? Nowhere.

The romance with Tonks was unexepected and too much fanfic like and I didn't like it at all. I am glad that R4emus has someone, but the romance was very poorly written- what was that thing with Tonks being a complete idiot?- and I didn't expect Jo to really pair so many people. I am really dissapointed with her right now.

So, as you probably see I am not in a good mood. Not much about Lupin to keep us talking for 3 years, until book 7 is out. And I know that she said 2, but if she starts at the end of the year and it takes half of year to publish it, who would think that she will actually finish the book in a year. And the fact that the book will be shorter than OOTP is not good news.

She hasn't answered many things in HBP, the way she said she will. On the contrary, she has given us even more questions. How she will manage to solve everything in a book I don't know. It will probably be some kind of soap opera finish where everything is solved in a chapter, after y4ears and years of endless chapters.

I'm EXACTLY the same opinion. :tu: :tu: :tu: I really like Lupin and he was absolutely absent, colourless and not convincing as a *cough* lover. :rolleyes: And I don't like it also for what it did to Tonks. Should really all these ladies keep sobbing for their broken hearts? :no: :(

So you all know, and so we don't get off-topic here, I created a thread On the role of werewolves and Fenrir Greyback (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=60449), so we can talk about werewolves and such things. ;)

Well I love the idea of Lupin and Tonks, but I must say, it took me by surprise. J.K. could've foreshadowed that one a little more, if you ask me. Also, I'd love to see a scene with them together, which we haven't really seen yet.
However, I was quite disappointed that Lupin didn't become Harry's godfather-like figure. He was with the werewolves, so this could've prevented him from communicating with Harry, but I still think he could've made an effort to help Harry through troubling times.
~DogStarBlack :)

i liked lupin in this book. he finally gets someone

I can't say much for the romance, I never ship. I thought it was alright. But remember everyone, don't make Tonks the Bad Guy (or girl) because your jealous. Lupin, like everyone else, is in the middle of a war. The books focus on Harry, and Harry doesn't see many of the Order. At least Remus was in the books, many people from the Order weren't. I cringed when I read Fenrir's name for the reasons I shall post in On the role of werewolves and Fenrir Greyback.

I think you are correct in that Tonks was pleading for Lupin to think highly enough of himself to let someone in, but I'm still disappointed in all the romances of the book. Really, I'm happy for him, but I felt Tonks was way too weak. I can understand, I guess, being upset over a guy like Remus, but still.
I'm disappointed with the romances as well. . . not so much that they happened, but that they all happened at once and with very little build-up. They seemed really under-developed: I think there were just too many to really make sense out of them all. . . they just popped up out of nowhere because there just wasn't the time or space to devote enough energy to them. I just have to take it on faith that there's a lot of stuff there that we just didn't see: this thing between Tonks and Lupin was obviously going on for a really long time (from the beginning of the book, at least, all the way to the end), and Molly obviously had a very good understanding of it from the beginning, so we've definitely missed a lot of details.

I think it has become obvious that Lupin doesn't count for Jo. He is not a major character and he will never be one.

Yes she likes him and she looked forward to writting him, but so what? She didn't make him present in GOF and in OOTP and in HBP is barely there.
I'm preferring to take the high road here and say that there's still a lot of opportunity for Lupin to shine in Book 7. I'm beginning to feel that we really have to look at this book as something different from the previous five, not as a complete story within itself, but a story that sets up Book 7. We feel sort of deprived of a lot of things because they're not complete yet. JKR introduced several new things in connection with Lupin that really didn't get a lot of "screen time," if you will: 1) his work for the Order, 2) his relationship with Tonks, 3) his uncharacteristic emotional outburst at learning of Dumbledore's death, and most importantly, 4) the revelation of Greyback and how he was bitten. These are all things we learned about, but never really developed.

However, there are also other details in the book that felt the same way: 1) The whole first chapter, which indicates a much more universalized war here than we've seen in the much more personal story in HBP, 2) Snape's self-title of the Half-Blood Prince in general, 3) Wormtail's connection to Snape. . . These are obviously things with very strong implications that were merely introduced in HBP and then left hanging. I think the reason for this is that we still have a long way to go to tie up all the lose ends of this book.

Oh, and we're forgetting another extremely important character who made no personal appearance in this book whatsoever: Voldemort.

Remember back a while ago when JKR said that she felt that books 6 and 7 were like two halves of the same book? I really think we need to take that to heart here. We feel sort of left hanging out to dry because we're so used to each book in the series being a nice, neatly wrapped package that all makes sense in the end. . . but this one isn't like that. We've got a huge cliffhanger of an ending, with so many unanswered questions, and I think we need to have faith at this point that once we have Book 7, HBP is going to look a whole lot better than a lot of people are expressing now. I think this is the reason that JKR said that she knew some people weren't going to like this book: she knew they wouldn't be satisfied with what they got, because the book isn't designed to be that self-contained.

So, relating this back to Lupin. . . There's still hope! Don't give up yet! I think if we all revamp the way we're thinking about this book the way that I've descibed above, then things are looking a lot brighter for Lupin in Book 7. JKR has introduced enough new information about him--in a book that is full of introductions with no conclusions--to give us a good indication that a lot of this stuff is going to come back in some form later on. If you think about it, none of the scenes in which we saw Lupin were without some kind of really active piece of information about him.* There was never just idle chatter in which we could maybe glean a few bits of information about the kind of person he is (as in PoA and OoTP), but big things that really reveal a lot about who he is and what he's been doing.

When you really think about it, despite the small amount of space that Lupin actually got in the pages of HBP, we probably learned more concrete information about him than we have ever did in OoTP, and maybe enough to even rival PoA. It might not look that way to us, because we've been diving so deeply into his character for so long that we've been able to infer many of these things, but JKR gave us a very detailed look at the way that Lupin thinks about himself and his relationships to other people in that hospital wing scene with Tonks. I don't know about all of you, but despite the amount of time we've spent talking about it, I never really expected JKR to be that blatant with it, and when I go back and read it now, I find it very poignant that she did (perhaps it required for JKR something so personal as a romantic relationship for her to be able to bring that aspect of his character so deliberately out of him).

JKR has told us, in addition to this, very clearly what Lupin is doing for the Order, which was not only one of our big questions, but a good indication that he's been doing this for quite some time. She's showed us how it has affected him personally, his attitude toward the job. . .

She's showed us another important detail that we've spent quite a bit of time discussing: that Lupin's bite was not an accident. Not only this, but she told us who specifically bit him and why (though without a lot of details there, either).

And she's done all this in probably no more than 10 pages of space.

I say we've learned a lot about Lupin, and a lot that really has room to grow in Book 7. Keep your chins up, Lupinites! This is not a defeat. . . it's a new beginning!


*On this note, what do we all say to analyzing book passages, once we've had a few days to get all our regulars back in the game?

True, shadow, many of the Order were just completely absent. Though I must say that Kingsley 'Mind if we dance with your dates' Shacklebolt as the P.M. secretary tickled me.

Anyway... I'm a proud jealous fangirl and will always be. I loved Tonks in book 5 and if she'd remained more like herself, I'd have an easier time of it. But she was kind of psycho, to me.

Edited, as credo posted at the same time:
I'm disappointed with the romances as well. . . not so much that they happened, but that they all happened at once and with very little build-up.
Exactly. I felt like she was just pairing everyone off for the sake of doing so, without actually exploring how those relationship developed and worked. It was as if she just wanted to quiet the shippers. Like i said, I wouldn't mind Remus/Tonks so much (or any of the others) if she'd just done more with it. I understand that Harry wouldn't be seeing all that went on between them, though. Perhaps if she'd developed the romance that Harry was in better, I wouldn't feel so empty about the rest of them. But when Harry's was just an afterthought, it brought down the rest to me.

I feel like the things you said about what the R/T relationship can show are true, credo. Tonks' devotion is very nice and sets a beautiful example and Remus is certainly worth that. But I felt like it could have been anyone performing that role, and Jo didn't show me why she selected Tonks. Does that make sense?


On the presence of Remus: I really feel that Jo has set up an important situation with Fenrir as Remus' nemesis. I believe we'll see a showdown. *buys tickets and popcorn*


We were discussing hints at the Remus/Tonks relationship, and the first one I noticed was the new shape of her Patronus, which was so obviously Lupin! it was obvious because Snape said it was weak.

Which brings me to another point: It is so telling how Snape will nearly outright say that Lupin is weak, while Lupin is very diplomatic and claims to neither like nor dislike Snape. Remus' words at Christmas were very much in line with what we'd all said about him before: that he finds what he can to appreciate in Snape and tries to maintain a personable demeanor with him. Quite the contrast, as usual between those two.

Of course, now... Remus wouldn't be so kind about Snape. ;) ANyone think he'd kill him on sight?


[Yes, credo, I'd love to do a passage-by-passage analysis, but perhaps after the craziness of the boards has settled down? it's very hard to keep up right now without being online 24/7. *is frazzled*)

We were discussing hints at the Remus/Tonks relationship, and the first one I noticed was the new shape of her Patronus, which was so obviously Lupin! it was obvious because Snape said it was weak.
Wow, that's a good catch! I'd forgotten that Snape said it was weak. . . what a jerk. :grumble:

A) He didn't die!!
Yay!

Of course he can't. He's about the last link to Harry's parents. And I think in the series, he kind of represents that era, and to kill him off would be to seal off that passage of time.

I agree with GottaLoveLupin. Although I was never a fanatic Remus fan like most of you, I also loved Lupin and though his charater would be further developed. It made sense that he would step aside in favor of Sirius in Gof and OOtP. But, as gottalovelupin said, HBP clearly established Remus as a secondary character with little future. Yes, he may kill Greyback, yes, he may marry Tonks, but he will never have an important role in the life of Harry, or in the books, and that is truly a shame.

I love the idea of Remus/Tonks, but the execution was truly revolting. Cheerful, friendly Tonks turning all gloom and doom for a year because Remus won't marry her? The random hospital scene with absolutely no buildup? If I hadn't been so upset about DD's death, I would have started laughing.

Remus talking of him operating amongst the Werewolves makes me wonder if there are sort of Werewolf villages.

The Remus/Tonks thing came totally out of left field for me. I thought her gloom and doom demeanor the few times we saw her was because of her failure in the DoM. I thought she couldn't face Remus at the various Weasley family dinners because she had been shooting spells at Bella and missed every time. Because of that, Lupin's best friend died and she shouldered some of the blame.

Wrong again. Most of my theories have crashed with a loud bang, but I don't mind at all.

Molly and Arthur knew. Obviously Remus and Tonks have been arguing about it for a long time. I can accept that it's been an undercurrent that I didn't see all along and say YAY.

Tonks goes back to her pink hair and her impish personality and she'll be good at drawing Lupin out of himself. She'll make him laugh and keep him happy. Can't ask for anything more than that.

I missed you all, I actually finished the book last night and was like ok now what do I do noone to talk to about it. So I am glad they opened early and will be glad when all the regulars get back.



I'm preferring to take the high road here and say that there's still a lot of opportunity for Lupin to shine in Book 7. I'm beginning to feel that we really have to look at this book as something different from the previous five, not as a complete story within itself, but a story that sets up Book 7. We feel sort of deprived of a lot of things because they're not complete yet. JKR introduced several new things in connection with Lupin that really didn't get a lot of "screen time," if you will: 1) his work for the Order, 2) his relationship with Tonks, 3) his uncharacteristic emotional outburst at learning of Dumbledore's death, and most importantly, 4) the revelation of Greyback and how he was bitten. These are all things we learned about, but never really developed.

I am with you on this Credo, I was of course very disappointed in not seeing more of our Remus in the book and not having a close relationship with Harry but I started to think about it a little more and have decided there is still a lot of room to grow with him and he could have a pivotal role in book 7. There are still a lot of unanswered questions, especially about Harrys parents and who knew them better than Remus. So I am going to believe that book 7 will be the book where he will answer a lot of questions and his character will be developed even more.

OK the T/R ship, well I am feeling better after reading Credos post, I at first thought that was the most inappropriate time to bring up some kind of "I love you why don't you love me" thing but now that I open my mind a little bit I see that maybe Tonks was doing all she could do to respect Remus' wishes as hard as that was for her. I think they were probably doing fine, Sirius dies, Remus said this is to dangerous for anyone close to me and I am not worthy anyway and all of a sudden pushed her away. So even though It was probably not the appropriate time to bring up a relationship with all Fleur said Tonks just let it out that Remus was being ridiculous and he does deserve love.

Sight.
I can't say I'm really disappointed in book because I find the plot really fascinating and there was a lot of things that touched or mesmerized me but...
I was definitly expecting that we will see more of Remus and learn some things about Marauders (I think there was supposed to be a background to the whole "Prank" incident wasnt it? :huh: ) but Remus was barely present there. Yes I enjoyed learning about the reason of his lycantrophy and I still hope that he is going to be the one who killed Greyback and I'm sure now that he is going to survive the whole hell but...I think that was the end of hoping that he will became closer to Harry.

It wouldnt have been bad if JK had not included so much of snogging and instead gave us something more about Remus/Marauders and The Order IMHO.

As for Remus&Tonx' thing :rolleyes: gee for one moment I was sure that I'm reading really bad Harlequin instead of Harry Potter. "But I dont care either, I dont care either!" GAG. It's not that I dont like Tonx- I really like her even when she is acting like a miserable mouse( altough I thought that being a Black she is stronger but never mind) and I want Remus to be happy- but the way it was written...well not exactly Pultizer' worthy.

I thought he'd have a bigger part to play, but I can live with that.

Was it me or did Remus seem a bit...distant...from Harry in this one? Yeah, I know he had an excuse for not writing to him, I just got the impression that he didn't care for Harry much anymore.

But if Harry really is intending to go to Godrics Hollow then he'll probably need Remus to tell him where it is. And he IS turning 17, so he'll need protection. I think Remus will be the one to do that and we will see alot more of him in the next book, possibly helping Harry find the Horcruxes.

I am really glad that you are so optimistic, Credo, but I can't.

I am extremely dissapointed now and I don't want the same to happen with book 7. 3 years of commenting on this site how great Remus is, only to find out in book 7 that he is barely there, would be too much for me.

We have found out things about Lupin, but this doesn't mean that much will come out of these.

I am telling you what i believe it will happen:

Arthur will become the head of the Order, just because he has been underestimated until now- poor |Arthur, he has a soft spot for the muggles, everyone said- because he has already been promoted- so it's a sign that he is moving upwards- because his name is Arthur and because Jo seems to like him very much.

Snape will become the hero of the book. Oh, how his fans will gloat! It will turn out that Dd asked him to kill him and that poor Snape had no other choice, but he is devastated because he killed his menthor. Snape will save Harry, will turn out to be good, will help Harry defeat Voldemort and I will just throw myself from the window because if only the thought makes me sick, I can't even imagine how bad I will feel if it turns out to be right. But this is the kind of person I am. i am not at all lucky.

What will become of Lupin? Not much I say. he will probably have a confrontation with the other werewolf and kill him. he will be injured in the process and Harry will feel sorry for him. He will have a couple of conversations with Harry, and he will be shown at the end of the book with Tonks, and this is it.

I no longer believe that he will be important, that he will lead the order and distroy some important enemies and help Harry. The message of the book is clear@ Harry is on his own now. Remus lost the bus long time ago, when he did not write to Harry and did not try to get closer to him. he had the last opportunity in HBP, but again, he didn't take it.

Jo doesn#t want Harry to have a menthor, a father figure. We hoped in vain. We will never see this kind of connection between H and R. R has been more distant than ever in this book. he didn't pay much attention to Harry. They will keep in touch and they will be sorry if something happens to the other, but this is it.

I really don't understand Jo. How can she make from someone as dispicable as Snape a good character and not give much more book space to a guy like Remus, I will never know.

We were discussing hints at the Remus/Tonks relationship, and the first one I noticed was the new shape of her Patronus, which was so obviously Lupin! it was obvious because Snape said it was weak.
I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one thinking along those lines when I read that part of the book. I figured that the shape of her patronus had to be important since it was kept secret and it meant something to Snape. Of course, the fact that Snape said it was weak fits very well with his attitude towards Remus. Then later, when Harry said it looked like a dog...well that just clinched it. :)

I quite liked the hospital scene; even though there wasn't really a lot of build up to it, it was clear that this was something that had been going on for some time. As always with the Harry Potter books, we are reminded that there are things going on outside Harry's bubble of awareness.

As for not having enough of him in the book...I can't say that I'm surprised. Harry was not ready to talk about Sirius yet, and Remus obviously wasn't either. He seems to get rather withdrawn when faced with grief and while he made it clear at the end of OotP that he was there for Harry if he needed him, I think he really needed to grieve on his own the way Harry did.

I'm optimistic about his role in the next book. From Harry's decision to go to Godric's Hollow I'd say there's a fairly good chance that Harry will spend a lot of time exploring his own past and who better to help him than Lupin?

I was so sad to see that Lupin really didn't have a big part in Half-Blood Prince! I had been hoping against hope that he would take over the dad-role for Harry, as did Harry himself. He needs another Sirius really badly, which made me even more disappointed with Lupin's role in the Order. I understand that he has a job to do, what with spying on Greyback and such, but I love Lupin so much that I just know he'd make a great father figure!

I guess you just never know what will happen in these books, do you? :sigh:

Maybe Lupin will play biological father to someone else soon. ;) Oh, Tonks.... Humph.

I was under the impression that we were seeing a "neutral" Tonks throughout almost this entire book, i.e. Tonks without any kind of metamorphic power. I can remember who mentioned it, but it was said that she hadn't been able to change her appearance the way she had been, and she's described as having the same "mousy brown hair" the whole time, which hardly seems like a hairstyle that Tonks would choose for herself if she could. I think that her being so profoundly upset over the situation caused her to maintain her "natural" appearance throughout the whole story (until the end, when she has her pink hair again).This is right. While we're looking for hints dropped about Lupin and Tonks, remember also that Dumbledore mentioned that lovesickness can sap a witch of her powers (when he was explaining Merope Gaunt's plight to Harry). It screams Tonks. :)

But I felt like it could have been anyone performing that role, and Jo didn't show me why she selected Tonks. Does that make sense? It does. :) Forgive me, but to me it felt a little bit like it was Remus and Tonks by default, because Jo wanted to give Remus a bit of happiness and Tonks was the only single adult woman she had on hand. It's love that Lupin needs and Tonks is giving him that, but I'm not convinced that she's the only one who can. We've seen enough of them to know that it can work out, but it's not something so perfectly fitting that it takes your breath away. But, Credo, your take on Tonks' plea is rather heartlifting. I'm the last in the world who wants to accept it, but being able to see such a noble sentiment in her actions makes it... easier. ;) :tu:

gottalovelupin, I've been feeling blue about the lack of Lupin interaction in the last three books, but chin up! Our prospects can be very golden if we choose to look at it that way. Thank you, Credo, for reminding us that JKR said books 6 and 7 were more like two halves of a whole than anything! Going into book seven:

• Pettigrew's life-debt with Harry is still unresolved.
• Harry is headed to Godric's Hollow, and JKR has as good as said that she's saving many revelations about the Potters' for Book 7.
• Greyback is on the loose and we now know that Lupin has a personal connection to the villain.
• Snape, who was part of the Marauder generation, has become... incomprehensibly crucial.

Lupin's cover has been blown but he's still a member of the Order of the Phoenix. I don't think Harry will be allowed to wander around without protection, and I'll continue to hope that Lupin is still the most natural candidate to help him out, in both Harry's and Jo's mind. Mentor or not, Lupin is the last surviving link to that past, (unless Hagrid knows a lot more than he's letting on, or Harry suddenly fancies a heart-to-heart with Pettigrew).

Is it really pathetic to also try to believe those old quotes about Lupin playing a crucial role in Book 7? Gosh, I sure hope Lupin crops up somewhere in the Melissa/Emerson interview!

I have to agree with loveslupin, I think we'll get more of our favorite guy in book 7. my suspicion is that Harry won't be back at school for his last year (at least not all of it) and Lupin will have a role to play in Harry's quest to destroy what's-his-name.

keeping fingers crossed...

I'm disappointed with the romances as well. . . not so much that they happened, but that they all happened at once and with very little build-up. They seemed really under-developed: I think there were just too many to really make sense out of them all. . . they just popped up out of nowhere because there just wasn't the time or space to devote enough energy to them. I just have to take it on faith that there's a lot of stuff there that we just didn't see: this thing between Tonks and Lupin was obviously going on for a really long time (from the beginning of the book, at least, all the way to the end), and Molly obviously had a very good understanding of it from the beginning, so we've definitely missed a lot of details.

I've said this all along and you all didn't believe me! :D Hate to say I told you so. :p

But seriously, I am slightly disappointed with how long Lupin was in the book for. I had expected all kinds from him, helping Harry get over Sirius, a big involvement with the Order. Him finally getting with Tonks ;) I'd predicted this for a long time, but I expected more in terms of I don't know, a bit of a story with their relationship. I mean it all sort of came out of no-where, bang an arguement, next chapter they're holding hands. And I also thought Remus was going to be the HBP too, not Snape. :sad: Ah well, it was still a good book.

I was suprised with his revelation about Greyback. When Remus talked about his bite I thought of our old nights at the Lyceum discussing how he was bitten and thinking "yay we know now!"
I think in the next book hopefully Remus will be more involved, HOPEFULLY! Or if not then book 3 will remain to be my favourite book. :tu:

Again, I am sure that he doesn't. No question about Remus in either of the polls. I am sure that there will be questions about Snape and about what kind of wand has each character etc. Anything other than remus relatted.


A question: does it say in HBP that R and T are thinking of getting married? I saw it several times, but I don't remember reading it.

anyone wonder if lupin will be head of the OoTP now or joint with mr weasley well times of the full moon would be difficult, for him.

also dont think he will be going back undercover Harry is going to need someoen to help him find out about his parents lifes and Lupin is really now the only person who knows what they did.
I think we going to see Lupin and Harry get closer and tonks is going to be there to help,
i also think something else but not sure i can post it here as its purely speculation, i'll look around the boards and if i cant find the spot will post it in a few days.
oh ps, reading how down lupin was through the book made me sad but once i realised the love angle wih tonks it made sense, bless.

As someone said in the thread to rate the book, this one is Dumbledore's swan song and it needed to be about Harry's relationship with him.

Remus is obviously still around, we know Wormtail will not kill him, and JKR thought enough of him to give him love. His character has now changed and grown, and it looks like JKR will give Remus his own part in the story ... the confrontation with Grayback.

I remain optimistic.

A question: does it say in HBP that R and T are thinking of getting married? I saw it several times, but I don't remember reading it.Nothing that comes to mind, unless you count Tonks saying, "you see, she still wants to marry him, even though he's been bitten!" Nothing's been decided yet, (though they both strike me as marrying types; I've no doubt that's what's on their minds). :)

Here's something from TLC:

"Samatha Scattergood for Waterstones - Which is your favourite member of the Order of the Phoenix?

JK Rowling: I keep killing all my favourite members of the Order of the Phoenix, but there is one member of the Order of the Phoenix that you have not yet met properly and you will, well, you know that they are a member, but you haven't really met them properly yet and you will meet them in seven, so I am looking forward to that."

Remus maybe? I doubt it, I'm thinking it actually might be Tonks, but there's still hope there! Where there's Tonks, there's Remus! ;)


I think Desraedla is right--this book was about Harry's relationship with Dumbledore, not anyone else. It's definitely a coming-of-age for Harry, and I'm really very interested to see how Harry will interact with Remus now, after Dumbledore's death. In some ways, I might actually see Harry helping Remus cope with his grief--a total turning of the tables. We already saw Harry speaking with Remus at Christmas as if they were equals, and Remus offered Harry information about himself when we normally don't see him doing so. Did Dumbledore tell Remus to do so? Did Remus decide Harry was old enough to understand? I'm thinking Harry's conversations with Remus from now on will be much more adult, not as teacher or mentor to student, but as friend to friend.

Also, I know we didn't see much of Remus in this book, and I am just as disappointed as the rest of you, but I don't think we should give up hope! As Credo pointed out, there are many different storylines that have yet to be resolved, and I definitely think that Fenrir Greyback will be prominent within book 7. Here, in one character, is the personification of all Remus has been fighting against within himself and within society for the last 30+ years. For him to defeat Greyback, and I think he will, will be a huge boost to his self-esteem and may finally help him conquer the demons he lives with everyday that we see so plainly when we see his boggart.


And Credo, I think that's a great idea to begin analyzing book passages, but I agree that we should wait a few days until our regulars return. :)

I
Jo doesn't want Harry to have a menthor, a father figure. We hoped in vain. We will never see this kind of connection between H and R. R has been more distant than ever in this book. he didn't pay much attention to Harry. They will keep in touch and they will be sorry if something happens to the other, but this is it.



Yeah, I read that as well. Which was the reason she killed off Sirius. I hope you're not correct about not seeing much more of Remus because of this, but it might be.

I still hold out that the presence of Fenrir as even more of an archenemy than Peter will mean more heroic!Remus for book 7.

to me it felt a little bit like it was Remus and Tonks by default
Kneazle, I'm glad my thoughts on Tonks made sense to you!

Remus maybe? I doubt it, I'm thinking it actually might be Tonks, but there's still hope there! Where there's Tonks, there's Remus!I don't think she was talking about Remus. I would imagine that we've met him properly, even though we haven't gotten enough of him yet.

Oh, and you looked so cute in your Ginny costume, dearie. ;)

I think we will get to see much more of Remus. Like a few people pointed out... we've learned a lot about him in this book, and to me, he actually seemed to have one of the larger roles. To be fair, there wasn't that much of him in print, but then again it was mostly Harry, Dumbledore (sob), and Voldemort. But I think there was as much Remus as Mr. Weasley, which was cool. And we got to see, or at least hear about, Lupin in battle. I mean, I was so nervous when he mentioned the Killing Curse that barely missed him. And did you notice that he and Neville were the only ones who tried to get to the tower through the barrier? True Gryffindors, through and through! He also comforted Hermione when she was feeling guilty about letting Snape by... which I thought was quite cool. If anyone could comfort Hermione, it would be Lupin. They both think quite logically, and as you noticed, he used a logical explanation to quell her guilt. There's that Lupine insight.

Remus talking of him operating amongst the Werewolves makes me wonder if there are sort of Werewolf villages.
When Remus said "underground, literally" he was dropping a hint that readers outside the UK might not get. I think the werewolves might be hiding some place like an abandoned tube station or trackline. The literal London Undergound.

I don't think she was talking about Remus. I would imagine that we've met him properly, even though we haven't gotten enough of him yet.

Yeah, I don't think it was Remus either, but if it's Tonks, then perhaps Remus will be with her a lot (wishful thinking...). I'm trying to think of what other Order members she might be talking about: Bill? Charlie? Kingsley?

Oh, and you looked so cute in your Ginny costume, dearie. ;)

Thanks! I look about 17 there :lol: How'd you like Crazy!Remus? I did the 'tache... ;)

Oh, good idea Wooden. Kinda makes me remember the opening scene of the movie "Underworld" where the werewolves were all hanging in the tunnels under the subway. *Shudders to think of Remus in a place like that.*

Yeah, I don't think it was Remus either, but if it's Tonks, then perhaps Remus will be with her a lot (wishful thinking...). I'm trying to think of what other Order members she might be talking about: Bill? Charlie? Kingsley?
I'm imagining it's one of the members of the order we've met, but only in passing (e.g. Hestia Jones). Though I do wish that there was more Remus.
Wishful thinking, I know, but I'm hoping to see not only Fleur and Bill's wedding but also Remus and Tonks' wedding as well in book seven. Or maybe even a new baby from either Fleur or Tonks... *begins dreaming*

Ok, I finally finished reading HBP this afternoon, and I just finished an hour of backreading of this thread! I am quite overwhelmed by HBP in general: First of all, I'm so glad Remus made it unscathed to the end of the book! :clap: But I was very disappointed at how little page time Remus had.


Remus and Harry
Though Lupin didn't stay in touch with Harry or mentor him regarding Sirius' death, I didn't really view his interactions with Harry to be distant. He speaks to Harry quite openly, though he does wait for Harry to initiate the conversation. And when Scrimgeour asks Harry to come outside with him, he half rises from his chair in what seems to me to be a protective gesture. So even though Remus and Harry don't interact all that much, I am going to be optimistic and say that I think there is room for Lupin's and Harry's relationship to grow in book 7.

Remus and Tonks
I have to agree that the number of romances in HBP did put me off a little, and the lack of development of Remus and Tonks was a little disappointing, but I have to say that I'm happy Remus now has someone who will love him for who he is. I'd have to say that Tonks really wasn't my first choice to pair up with Remus, but I'm ok with it.

Remus not being the HBP
Though it would have been cool, I wasn't all that disappointed that Remus was not the HBP, especially given the meaning of the title. In essence, it seems Snape was trying to emulate Tom Riddle by fashioning a nickname for himself. To tell you the truth, as soon as I read about the HBP's notes being in that potions book, I immediately knew the HBP was Snape- who else could possibly know so much about potions? So in short, I wasn't too upset that Remus wasn't the HBP.

New things we learned about Remus
I agree that we did actually learn quite a bit more about Lupin's character in this book despite the fact that Remus had so little page time. As Credo mentions, we learned:

--About Fenrir Greyback (*shudder* :scared: ) and the circumstances of Remus's bite

--The part about James calling his condition a "furry little problem" was pretty funny. :)

--What Remus was doing for the Order

--How he views himself and his condition, mainly from the "living among his eqauals" comment and the things he says in the hospital wing scene


I could write much more, but I'll leave it at that for now. Brilliant book and excellent thoughts, everyone! :tu:

PS- I've marked the parts where Lupin appears or where there's a reference to him in HBP, so when all of the regulars return, I can type out the passages for us to analyze. :)

YAY RLF!!! We missed you!! I knew you'd mark the book--I was gonna start typing out some things, but figured our resident Lupin Prefect would already be one step ahead of me!

Remus not being the HBP
Though it would have been cool, I wasn't all that disappointed that Remus was not the HBP, especially given the meaning of the title. In essence, it seems Snape was trying to emulate Tom Riddle by fashioning a nickname for himself. To tell you the truth, as soon as I read about the HBP's notes being in that potions book, I immediately knew the HBP was Snape- who else could possibly know so much about potions? So in short, I wasn't too upset that Remus wasn't the HBP.

I had the same reaction. I knew it was probably Snape from the potions book, and once I read "Stuff a bezoar down their throat" I knew it wasn't Remus--he'd never say something as uncompassionate as that! I was relieved he had no relation to the title HBP once I knew the connotations of the title. Our Remus is far too kind and a much better person than the HBP!

If anyone kills Greyback, and it really needs to be done -- let's face it: he's a sociopathic, child-killing lunatic, and a Voldemort supporter, to boot! -- it must must must be Lupin. To think, he has to deal with this Thing (Greyback), knowing full well that it was this same werewolf that attacked him as a child. Honestly, that is one of the saddest things in the book.

As far as the Lupin/Tonks romance goes, (do not throw things, please! :p ) I thought it was tacky and absurd to address it when they did. I fully agree with Lupin -- there is a time for things, and that was NOT the time! This was one of my criticisms of the book -- it seemed to really shift the whole tempo and melody of the book in a way that didn't work with the rest of the scene. I do think that it's a good match, but I really would have rather it be sort of a subtle thing that happens. It just didn't seem right at the time.

But I am very glad that Lupin is back. I think he's really deserved a break, and if that includes spending time with a pink-haired Auror, all the better.

Hi everyone !


I am a long time lurker here (back to the everything about Remus lupin #6 or 5 thread)

I haven’t read the book yet, (being in New Caledonia :cool: can be nice, but a pain in the *** when it comes to find HBP in a library ! ! !) but I « spoiled » myself senseless so I know at least what happened and I quite agree with Gottalovelupin

I must say I don’t understand JK Rowling’s point :huh: :
Why creating a new werewolf (Bill) when she doesn’t seem to find the time to develop Remus’character ?
Remus / Tonks seems pointless !
I don’t undestand why Lupin asked harry to « keep in touch » and then did not write a word !
Etc……………..

Welcome back RemusLupinFan! I can't wait till everyone moseys on in so we can get down to the meat and potatoes anaylsis. hobbitseeker
I had the same reaction. I knew it was probably Snape from the potions book, and once I read "Stuff a bezoar down their throat" I knew it wasn't Remus--he'd never say something as uncompassionate as that! I was relieved he had no relation to the title HBP once I knew the connotations of the title. Our Remus is far too kind and a much better person than the HBP! The biggest give away for Snape was the fact that every potion mentioned in the first potion class was featured in the textbook. At that point I wasn't too upset that it was Snape but after the rooftop murder.....*goes off to bite something* KimsPensieve
If anyone kills Greyback, and it really needs to be done -- let's face it: he's a sociopathic, child-killing lunatic, and a Voldemort supporter, to boot! -- it must must must be Lupin. To think, he has to deal with this Thing (Greyback), knowing full well that it was this same werewolf that attacked him as a child. Honestly, that is one of the saddest things in the book. First off, Jello (my version of hello ;)!

Since Mrs. Flamel and a bunch of us are of the same opinion I think we need to start Showdown Annonymous, Death to Psychopaths or something. It would be wonderful for Remus and Bill to lay the smackdown on Greyback.

I don’t undestand why Lupin asked harry to « keep in touch » and then did not write a word!Hi, titoo! Hope you get your hands on the book soon, I know you'll have fun with it. :)

That one aspect bugged me a bit, too. I'm still trying to understand exactly what Lupin's mission required of him (was it going to be a giveaway because they'd notice he was corresponding with wizards? Was he literally among them at all times-- living in a werewolf slum or something? I can't quite picture what the physical werewolf underground is like...), but we saw him at the Burrow at least twice, so surely there were moments where he could have written.

Perhaps he didn't want to initiate an open correspondence with Harry, as he might have been sent letters while on his missions, but it seems odd that he didn't send bulletins off at the very least-- encouraging words and a general updates on life. Harry understands that Lupin is busy, and would no doubt have been cooperative if he knew that he couldn't send letters or expect them regularly.

I also thought that it was weird moment at the Hospital Wing where Tonks brings the whole thing up, but she's in love with him which is so great(so it is understandable)!!!! I was wondering what the no death by poking means?? Sorry for my ignorance. I also think that Lupin should rip the shreds out of Fenrir Greyback very clever name for a werewolf by the way. How hard must it be to live in a colony with the very person who has put you in this condition and not want to attack him. I wonder if that werewolf we saw in OotP is living down there and is friends with Lupin and who bit him? I've also been wondering who the Order Member is and all i can think of is. Dedalus Diggle, Hestia Jones, and Elphias Dodge, also Caradoc Dearborn might show up. It never says that he died, just disappeared.

Dumbledorefan
I was wondering what the no death by poking means?? Sorry for my ignorance. Don't worry, we Lupinites are happy to explain. It all started with that lovely supposedly silver (it's not BTW) hand of Peter and the flurry of people who thought that it meant that Peter would kill Remus, which is based on the Hollywood made up legend that werewolves are allergic to silver. So the only way for the silver to kill would be for it to enter the bloodstream and to do that we joke that Peter would have to poke Remus to death. Mostly the image comes from Monty Python and its pretty funny :p .

It's our way of saying that Remus won't die or at least we hope so...one more book!

Yay! Love for Lupin! I guess.......It was a bit odd, it kinda just come out of nowhere!

I did miss him during most of the book, though. Greyback is one freaky guy though.

Voldemorts Werewolves for the most part I believe are not Death Eaters. They just left because they couldn't handle being shunned away anymore and left to some promises Voldemort made. They saw no good in the other people and gave up on them.

I was touched when I read about Lupin and Tonks relationship. It was so perfect and so simply sweet. I hope to see more of it in the future.

Lupin's role for the order reminded me a lot of the role Snape was playing (except he's evil). They were both undercover (or Snape pretending to be) pretending to be in favor of something they're not to gain information. I wonder if any other order members are doing something similar. I wonder if any death eaters are also using this approach. If the order can do it why can't voldy's followers?

"My first question after finishing the book was now that Greyback witnessed Lupin fighting for the Order at Hogwarts, it doesn't seem very likely that Lupin will be able to continue his role as spy for the werewolves. So, what do you think Lupin will do?"
-asked by hobbitseeker

Well, it wouldn't do much good if Greyback bit Lupin again considering he's already a wearwolf. I wonder if now he's in greater danger. I wouldn't be surprised if he dies in the next book (gasp). I'm curious to see if wormtail's silver hand will play a part.

Hey guys! I missed you all.

Lupin in HBP: I was dissapointed that we didn't see a lot of him, but what we did see was good.
I think credo is right; there's still book 7.
I wonder if Remus will be with Harry in 7. I'm not sure.
On the one hand, Harry said he was planning to go to Godric's Hallow (can't wait for that!). Remus can help Harry and tell him things about his(Harry's) parents, Sirius and Dumbledore. Harry's going to need help tracking down the Horcruxes and defeating Voldemort.
On the other hand, Harry said that he has no parent figure left* (something like that. I don't have the book). Harry doesn't want people to get close to him, in case Voldemort uses them, e.g. Ginny.
He didn't tell anyone about the Horcruxeses (besides Ron and Hermione) so I doubt he's going to tell Remus.
Lupin not being the HBP: I was slightly disappointed that Elf and Loup's theory didn't pan out.
I knew that it wasn't him for a few reasons
1) it was a potion book
2) When Harry asked Lupin if it was any of the Maradaurs, he said "no". Lupin wouldn't lie.
3) It was said a few times that there was no royalty in the WW. It had to be a nickname. Remus wouldn't nickname himself "Prince".

Tonks and Lupin: It came as a surprise, but I like it. Remus deserves some love in his life. Now that I went over OotP, I found that they were put together a lot. Also there were the signs in HBP. I'm not sure if Tonks said it at the right time though...

I like that we got some back story on him. I found Fenrir very interesting (and scary :scared: ). He represent's the very opposite of Remus. It's another example of the choices theme. I hope Remus and Bill defeat him!

*Okay did anyone (besides me) want to yell at Harry when he thought that he wouldn't have a parent figure?! I mean, what about Lupin? Lupin is the last Maradaur! He was James, Lily, and Sirius's friend! He knew Dumbledore. He's a good father figure for Harry. Sometimes Harry can be so such an idiot! :rolleyes:

I've seen a lot of people here saying that they were disappointed that Remus didn't take a more protector/mentor/parent-y role towards Harry. And while I too am disappointed that this did not happen, having seen the interview JKR did with the kids after the launch, I think I understand why she kept him at a distance.

1) It was Dumbledore's swan(or phoenix)song. This was Harry-Dumbledore bonding time and there just wasn't room for Remus too. :(

2) This I think is the more significant reason. In the interview she gave, JKR was asked why she had to kill Dumbledore, Sirius and everyone close to Harry. Her answer was estentially "The hero has to go it alone" - in other words, she had to get rid of all the protectory/mentory/parenty figures in Harry's life in order that he be ready to undertake his destiny alone in book seven. Therefore, by keeping Remus at a distance, by having him converse with Harry at Xmas more as equals than mentor-pupil, she estentially was able to keep him alive! :eyebrows: I can't say I like it, but I think I do understand why it had to be done.

Here's something from TLC:

"Samatha Scattergood for Waterstones - Which is your favourite member of the Order of the Phoenix?

JK Rowling: I keep killing all my favourite members of the Order of the Phoenix, but there is one member of the Order of the Phoenix that you have not yet met properly and you will, well, you know that they are a member, but you haven't really met them properly yet and you will meet them in seven, so I am looking forward to that."



Honestly I believe that will have to deal with Aberforth Dumbledore. But back to Lupin, I believe that Lupin that is probably the saddest character in these books with the possible exceptions of Hagrid, Harry, and Dumbledore. If you realize all that Lupin has lost in these books. From the way things look Lupin before school had absolutely no friends and when he finally got friends, Sirius, James, Peter, and possibly Lily, they have one by one been killed off or betrayed him. Now the one person who ever believed in him or given him a chance has been murdered. I wouldn't be suprised if Lupin was afraid to love because everyone he loves seems to die.

Lupin Lupin Lupin
Well,...
A.) Im SO glad he lived. But he seems torturingly sad in this book.
B.) I feel really sorry for what he has to do for the order.
C.) But how could he turn down tonks like that. Look what she's going through, It's aweful I really wanna see where tonks and lupin go from here

I wouldn't be suprised if Lupin was afraid to love because everyone he loves seems to die.
I agree!! Poor Lupin, aww im getting depressed from that book oncce again. I dont know if he can love now. Lupin has been through alot but i think he's doing like harry. He sees everyone he loves dies so he's not marrying tonks and harrys not staying with ginny. They're two of a kind, those two. They wont stay with the people they love and to whom their hearts belong because they're afriad they'll die because everyone they love has.

Well, i've finally finished the book this evening!
So much to discuss!

1) Remus was not the Half-Blood Prince.

I kind of figured that when we first learn about the HBP through Harry's potions book. Remus himself stated that he was weak at potions.
I was, however, dissapointed that Snape was the Half-Blood Prince. I really didn't think Rowling would choose to make the HBP that obvious. (Which is why i had switched my theory to believe that the Prince would be Remus. Oddly enough... Snape was originally my first choice.)

2) Lack of Remus in HBP.

It was lousy that we did not see much of Remus in the book, but we did still learn some key information.
The predictions about Lupin being purposely bitten were correct. How sick is it that Greyback intentionally spreads lycanthropy?!? Poor Lupin.

3) Harry and Lupin's lack of closeness.

I am hoping that we'll get to see these two improve their relationship in book seven. There really wasn't a way to do it in this one, with the way things were arranged. The focus of book Six was the relationship of Harry and Dumbledore. A complete buildup to the loss of our dear Headmaster... what ultimately has pushed harry over the edge and given him the fuel he needs to destroy Voldemort.

4) Tonks and Lupin.

I shudder. I cringe. I loathe.
On one hand, i'd love more than anything for Remus to be in love. But... Tonks? Come on.
Rowling did a lousy job with this relationship. It came in out of nowhere.
"oh... by the way... Remus and Tonks are a couple."
It was thrown together, without any previous tension. I think it's ridiculous that Tonks was bringing up the Marriage card, too.
I will not be sailing on the HMS Pink Werewolf.

Remus + Tonks = No.

Lupin to me in this book a very big let down.

There was no Harry / Lupin moments as in prevous books, and to tell the truth I thought there would be with Sirius Death in OOTP... he seemed to be shoved a side and became one of those minor characters, as did Mad Eye Moody

I've seen a lot of people here saying that they were disappointed that Remus didn't take a more protector/mentor/parent-y role towards Harry. And while I too am disappointed that this did not happen, having seen the interview JKR did with the kids after the launch, I think I understand why she kept him at a distance.

1) It was Dumbledore's swan(or phoenix)song. This was Harry-Dumbledore bonding time and there just wasn't room for Remus too. :(

2) This I think is the more significant reason. In the interview she gave, JKR was asked why she had to kill Dumbledore, Sirius and everyone close to Harry. Her answer was estentially "The hero has to go it alone" - in other words, she had to get rid of all the protectory/mentory/parenty figures in Harry's life in order that he be ready to undertake his destiny alone in book seven. Therefore, by keeping Remus at a distance, by having him converse with Harry at Xmas more as equals than mentor-pupil, she estentially was able to keep him alive! :eyebrows: I can't say I like it, but I think I do understand why it had to be done.

First of all CONGRATULATIONS! Your view about Remus getting bitten was very, very accurate. I am glad. I can't wait to read the sequel to Oblivious. I read ther first part and it was very good. Sorry for not leaving a review.

Second, I understand why Jo kept Remus apart, sort of. But this means that we are not going to see Remus-Harry in book 7 either. No more than a few chats maybe. Because Remus can't help Harry in any way. Harry has to go alone.

So basically, in book 7 Harry will do his business and Remus will do his. No stronger bond, nothing.

Hobbitseeker, in my opinion, it is obvious that the member of the Order we are going to find so much more about is DD's brother.

Again, I don't understand. We have already so many characters. Why not explore the ones we have? Why create others? It is another proof that we are not going to see a lot of Remus in book 7. It always seem to happen like this. Just whern you think that now is Remus's time, it appears a character that steals Remus's role. First Sirius, then DD, and now it will be4 Snape and Alberforth.

I kindly ask to wait at least until Sunday to start commenting on Remus's scenes. I am in London right now and I can't enter very frequently. And I would like to participate, even if the difference of time zone will stopp me from participating as much as I would like.

I don't know if I have been answered, but I don't recall Jo mentioning that Remus and Tonks plan to get married. Where does it say?

I don't know if I have been answered, but I don't recall Jo mentioning that Remus and Tonks plan to get married. Where does it say?

It wasn't stated that they're setting a date and sending out invitations, but... that's basically what Tonks was asking for in the last chapters of the book.
Ugh. :td: :huh:

Thanks. I don't think they plan to get married soon.

About who will be the head of the Order, I think it will be Arthur, or Moody or Kingsley. I don't think Jo will make Rewmus to be the one. She doesn't seem to care much about giving him a bigger role.

I also don't think she gives a **** about the marauders. Nothing about them in this book, absolutely nothing. And if she had wanted, she could have included something about them. No Sirius, No James, only something about Lily. She doesn't care about them.

So, if Harry has not asked a thing about his parents for so many time and so many books, do you think he will start now? What can be so important for her to tell us about the marauders when there are so many "other important things" like: Snape background, for example. When importance could it have for her want to know more about the marauders? Absolutely nothing. So Remus is useless from this point of view, too.

His only role in book 7 will be to defeat Greyback. And maybe not even that, now that we have another good werewolf, or sort of.

I wanted to ask something. I don't remember, but does the curse say that a person cannot be DADA teacher 2 years ina row, or that it cannot be DADA teacher two years, it doesn't matter if in a row or not?


But I think that I am again hoping against hope that Jo will make lupin more important. Probably the DADA teacher will be Tonks or Alberforth or Kingsley. And probably the person who will go with Harry to Gorcis's Hollow will be Alberforth, too, as it seems that Jo wants to give him a so much large role to play in book 7.

I'm not disappointed that Remus wasn't in the book very much. For me, he's never going to be in it enough, and if the parts he did have still made me smile and pray for more, than JKR has done her job.
Yes, the relationship thing may have come as a shock to some. But this book has set up so many relationships and I think it's our job now to speculate which relationships will be tested, which ones will fizzle out, and which ones will survive to the end. Jo Rowling has several major themes, and love is one of them. I think Remus and Tonks complete each other. Tonks wasn't childish and absurd in the hospital wing - she was being Tonks by making sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Remus knows that she loves him. She wasn't pleading, she was just trying to force him to see that he is worthy!

People say that this book proves that Remus will not be in book seven much. I honestly, passionately, and readily disagree with that view. Remus is an amazing character, and it seems some people aren't satisfied that Harry doesn't constantly turn corners to see good-old-reliable-Moony waiting to comfort him. Remus isn't there just to comfort Harry. He's got a story of his own, and I'm confident that, in time, that story will be revealed and expanded.

Remus is my favorite character, and he's definitely worth the wait until HP7.

I think he could have been more involved if you understand what i mean! He's the only one alive and trustwerthy who knew James well! he needs to be a more in volved character cause he's so good!!!!!!!!!!!! :p

PS Congrats Tonks and Lupin will be great together!!!!! :love:

And while I too am disappointed that this did not happen, having seen the interview JKR did with the kids after the launch, I think I understand why she kept him at a distance.

1) It was Dumbledore's swan(or phoenix)song. This was Harry-Dumbledore bonding time and there just wasn't room for Remus too. :(

2) This I think is the more significant reason. In the interview she gave, JKR was asked why she had to kill Dumbledore, Sirius and everyone close to Harry. Her answer was estentially "The hero has to go it alone" - in other words, she had to get rid of all the protectory/mentory/parenty figures in Harry's life in order that he be ready to undertake his destiny alone in book seven. Therefore, by keeping Remus at a distance, by having him converse with Harry at Xmas more as equals than mentor-pupil, she estentially was able to keep him alive! :eyebrows: I can't say I like it, but I think I do understand why it had to be done.
I agree with both of these. Clearly, this was Dumbledore's time to shine, and Lupin getting in there and acting as a "second" mentor would have detracted from that. I also like what you say about Lupin and Harry conversing as equals. . . I'm beginning to think, now, that we won't be seeing Lupin so much in that guiding role for Harry as we all hoped, but that he can still be in Harry's life as just that--an equal and a friend. He can still provide support for Harry by being there for him (we all know that Harry wants to go into Book 7 alone, but he's going to need his friends in his life, supporting him if only from the sidelines, more than ever), and even though "The hero has to go it alone," the hero still needs a family at the end of the day, and the closest thing he has to a real family are his friends at Hogwarts and Lupin.

I can't say I like it, but I think I do understand why it had to be done.
I think it's crucial that we all understand that. When JKR said that she knew some people wouldn't like HBP, I knew that a large part of that was going to be because she was going to put characters in places that people weren't going to want them to be. We all have to remember that JKR knows how this thing ends, and we don't. . . and she's a very careful writer and cares about what she's putting out there for her fans very much, so it's probably best that we get our frustrations out, but remember that there are reasons for everything that happens, and we can respect that and respect JKR's decisions even if they might not have been ours.

(Can you tell that I'm determined to defend this book to the death? I feel like I should start a "Fans of HBP--Convince non-fans that this is a good book!" thread :p )

Don't worry, Credo, I'll defend it too. Some seem to feel that it was rushed. But I agree with the view that it was just like a very long prologue to HP7. I think that anyone who has lost faith in JK might not be as big a fan as they thought they were, and if they aren't prepared for what JK writes in her books, which are first and foremost for herself, then, oh well, they shouldn't complain.

I don't know if I have been answered, but I don't recall Jo mentioning that Remus and Tonks plan to get married. Where does it say?
The quote in question is this one:

"You see!" said a strained voice. Tonks was glaring at Lupin. "She still wants to marry him, even though he's been bitten! She doesn't care!"
I personally don't think that marriage itself is the most important factor here. I think she's pointing out that it's possible for a werewolf (or, in this case, one who has simply been attacked by one) to be in a romantic relationship. I also think that your interpretation of the sentence really depends on emphasis: I've seen this quote with an itallic on the word "him" (is it actually that way in the US edition or something? because it's definitely not in the UK edition). . . and interpreted that way, it could definitely be suspicious. However, JKR provides no such emphasis. I think that the statement is merely an indication of the fact that Tonks and Lupin have in front of them an example of a relationship that is going to work out, despite all other objections.

Furthermore, I get the impression that, even though this thing has been going on for a long time, Tonks and Lupin really haven't been together romantically long enough to consider marriage. Here's how I see the progression of their relationship:

- By the end of OoTP, Tonks was probably interested in Lupin, but hadn't made a move yet (I think that if anyone made a move, it was her, which will make sense after the following).

- Somewhere in those few weeks between the end of OoTP and the point where Harry gets to the Burrow, Tonks has expressed her feelings for Lupin, which he probably reciprocated, but resisted the relationship for the reasons that he gives at the end of HBP.

- During the course of HBP, there was a lot of talk, a lot of Molly as a go-between, consoling Tonks and trying to convince Lupin, a lot of chance meetings within the Order or at the Burrow that result in these "millions of time" in which they've both expressed their thoughts on the relationship. Tonks is getting more and more worn down, Lupin is in more and more dangerous situations. . .

- The hospital scene was a breakthrough, in many ways, for Lupin. If it wasn't the example of Bill and Fleur in front of him, it was his grief, and his realization that he needed someone to share it with, and that someone had been right there in front of him for many, many months, and he'd been pushing her away. The decision had to be Lupin's, and considering the short amount of time between that night and when we see them together at Dumbledore's funeral, I feel like Lupin's grief had to be a factor more than it would obviously be otherwise.

So, based on that, I think that the hand-holding that we see at the end of HBP is only the beginning of their relationship. . . the end of a long period of time in which the proper feelings were there, but never fulfilled due to Lupin's objections. I hardly think that either of them is already considering marriage, for that reason.

But this book has set up so many relationships and I think it's our job now to speculate which relationships will be tested, which ones will fizzle out, and which ones will survive to the end. Jo Rowling has several major themes, and love is one of them. I think Remus and Tonks complete each other. Tonks wasn't childish and absurd in the hospital wing - she was being Tonks by making sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Remus knows that she loves him. She wasn't pleading, she was just trying to force him to see that he is worthy!
I completely agree. This sudden outburst of hormones--or whatever you want to call it :p --is another example of the theme of love, and relationships are definitely tested during war! I think she wants to show us the kind of love that survives, which is why we see a very superficial relationship between, for example, Ron and Lavendar, but a much more tender and innocent one blossoming between Ron and Hermione. Tonks and Lupin have their relationship tested before it even begins, but it ends up working because Tonks loves him in spite of it.

Remus is my favorite character, and he's definitely worth the wait until HP7.
Definitely worth the wait! The Lupinites new mantra--"Let us take a cue from Tonks: we love Lupin enough to wait for him!" ;)

Hey guys! Good to be back finally :)

Onto HBP:
I have mixed feelings about this book... the whole background history on Voldemort and the Horcruxes are really captivating, and it's gonna lead to a 7th book packed with action, not just the big epic finale battle.

But I felt there was too much romance. Way too much. Random couples popping out from everywhere, including, I'm sorry to say, Remus and Tonks :shrug:
I'm not sure I liked them together... it could have been dealt with differently, instead it seems Jo turned it kinda...sappy :shrug:
The 2 opposites getting together, which could be read also as the only 2 datable adults getting together.
I like Tonks, I loved the good mood she brought to OotP and the Order...but then you saw how she became in this book.
I felt almost as if showing Remus and Tonks so devasted by this love, took away from Sirius' death. All through the book we think that's what their grieving for and then this?
Poor Sirius...(I'll get back to this below).
I mean, I'll be glad if Remus manage to get some peace of mind and love, but I think this was introduced at the wrong time, and the wrong book.

Which leads me to the second thing that bothered me about HBP:
It seemed completely separated from book 5. The Order practically disappeared, all that got stated at the end of OotP was forgot.
Harry keeping in touch with the Order (it was said by Remus too, and then we see him stating he couldn't have written anyway, being with the werewolves), the whole Sirius mess! I mean, the way Harry was devasted one minute and then the grief suddenly disappeared. Jo said he had to pull it together to face Voldemort, but it was a bit too...quick, for me.

Which leads me to 3:
What happened to all the things we were expecting to discover? James and Lily's jobs, dealing with the future of the kids and their 'jobs', the feud between Snape and Sirius, the use of the Two-Way mirror, Dudley's worst fear...and the major thing revealed about Lily? That she was good at Potions? :huh:
I saw a thread specifically on this too...


After this bit of OT tho, going truly onto Remus:
Where were you, my dear? :sad:
I went in to read this book sure we'll see him bonding with Harry. He might not have been the HBP, but the bonding was a given to me, an obvious development...and then what?
Farther than ever apart.
Even tho we expected Remus to be get close to Harry by helping him deal with his grief, but super-Harry got over that rather quickly :whistle:

Now forgive me, I know this is me being kind of childish, I wholeheartely agree that HBP was = Harry+ DD bonding in the end, Pallas stated what I feel perfectly. But can I be a little disappointed?

That said, I loved that we still managed to get some background info on our Remus, some vital info at that.
Greyback is one disturbing character...the fact that even DD was disgusted and bothered by his presence say a whole lot.

But even given these 2 things, I'm not sure I like what Jo did to Remus' character as a whole.
Many of you will disagree, but I feel like she stripped him of a lot of what he stood for, turning him into just the werewolf of the story...after she seemed to make a point in PoA, to show that's def. not all he is.

Where was Remus, the understanding character able to grasp so quickly feelings and thoughts of those around him? The one who seemed second only to DD in the Order. And the mentor? He was a teacher/mentor before this book. Sirius' friend?
Now it seems his whole purpose is to be the werewolf. Do you realise that, had there not been Greyback, we would haven't heard him utter a word, nearly?
The longest he talks in the book is at Xmas with Harry.
(Bitterness apart, I did love how they seemed to comunicate more as equals. Wanted to clap Harry on the shoulder for having the brain for once to ask him what has he been up to :p ) Hopefully, we'll see a bit more of this in book 7, given the Order will still exist after DD and Fawkes disappeared.

All in all, it almost feels like Jo realised what she was doing, and put him and Tonks together to give him some more substance. Which makes me see red, cause he HAD a whole lot of substance before this book.
:sad:

Hope you managed to read til the end :lol:
Now I'll wait to be ripped apart :p

But even given these 2 things, I'm not sure I like what Jo did to Remus' character as a whole.
Many of you will disagree, but I feel like she stripped him of a lot of what he stood for, turning him into just the werewolf of the story...after she seemed to make a point in PoA, to show that's def. not all he is.
You make an interesting point here that I think I'll be able to get into more specifically when we go through book excerpts, but I think that JKR was actually trying to oppress Lupin with his werewolf status here. She's not at all oblivious to the fact that Lupin is being asked to fulfill a stereotype in this book, and it's a huge barrier for him: it's clear that he really dislikes the job that he has and what he is being asked to do. He's in an environment that's very unnatural for him, and he is extremely uncomfortable. I'm certain she's done this for a reason.

I don't know if anybody's asked this yet, but who will make his wolfsbane potion now?! (has it, infact, been Snape for 3 years or has somebody else been making it? Or perhaps not at all?)

Honestly I believe that will have to deal with Aberforth Dumbledore. But back to Lupin, I believe that Lupin that is probably the saddest character in these books with the possible exceptions of Hagrid, Harry, and Dumbledore. If you realize all that Lupin has lost in these books. From the way things look Lupin before school had absolutely no friends and when he finally got friends, Sirius, James, Peter, and possibly Lily, they have one by one been killed off or betrayed him. Now the one person who ever believed in him or given him a chance has been murdered. I wouldn't be suprised if Lupin was afraid to love because everyone he loves seems to die.
Well said!

After reading the book, I believe that Lupin had access to the Wolfsbane only while at Hogwarts. After that, he's been dealing with the trasformation without help.

It states this:

page 312 UK edition
...But I do not forget that during the year I taught at Hogwarts , Severus made the Wolfsbane potion eevry month, and made it perfectly, so that I did not have to suffer as I normally do at the full moon

I read it meaning, that unfortunately, with the end of his teaching experience, he had to stop counting on the potion's help. Maybe it was discussed with DD when he accepted the position as part of the "contract" that he'd have access to the potion for free.

After reading the book, I believe that Lupin had access to the Wolfsbane only while at Hogwarts. After that, he's been dealing with the trasformation without help.

It states this:

page 312 UK edition


I read it meaning, that unfortunately, with the end of his teaching experience, he had to stop counting on the potion's help. Maybe it was discussed with DD when he accepted the position as part of the "contract" that he'd have access to the potion for free.
Sadly, I think you're on to something here. . . good catch. Poor Remus :(

That one aspect bugged me a bit, too. I'm still trying to understand exactly what Lupin's mission required of him (was it going to be a giveaway because they'd notice he was corresponding with wizards? Was he literally among them at all times-- living in a werewolf slum or something? I can't quite picture what the physical werewolf underground is like...), but we saw him at the Burrow at least twice, so surely there were moments where he could have written.It seemed that the heart of Lupin's mission was to infiltrate the werewolf stronghold and see what they were up to as far as supporting Voldemort went. It seems he also was probably trying to surrepticiously convince the werewolves that supporting Voldemort was a bad idea. But in order to gain their trust, it seems he had to shun all of wizard society like they were doing, so he couldn't have written to Harry and he couldn't have made contact with the outside world. I'd have to believe that he'd have written to Harry if he possibly could.
So, based on that, I think that the hand-holding that we see at the end of HBP is only the beginning of their relationship. . . the end of a long period of time in which the proper feelings were there, but never fulfilled due to Lupin's objections. I hardly think that either of them is already considering marriage, for that reason.I agree with your assessment of Tonks' and Lupin's relationship- the holding hands also seemed like a beginning to me. I wonder if we'll see this relationship develop a bit more in the next book.

I am super happy about Lupin and Tonks- what a great and balanced couple. As for the werewolf bit; Lupin's gig is up. He cant return to them.

Fenrir Greyback was definitely scary. He embodies everything freaky about werewolves. I was very impressed with Remus's Gryffindor bravery, that he would go back and once again face the person who so ruthlessly cursed him in the first place. I was so relieved when he survived the fight--all those rumors about Peter killing him and Malfoy's mentioning the body he stepped over scared me to death. I love Remus loads, and I want to him to live.

Need I say that I adored Remus and Tonks? :) I had a very slight inkling--but I didn't pay much attention to said inkling. Imagine my surprise when it did indeed become them in canon! :lol: I'm glad he's got Tonks--he's going to need someone to help him through these dark days.

I read it meaning, that unfortunately, with the end of his teaching experience, he had to stop counting on the potion's help. Maybe it was discussed with DD when he accepted the position as part of the "contract" that he'd have access to the potion for free.
If Remus was underground with Grayback, he would have had to give up the potion, whether or not it was available to him. Grayback wants to infect as many people as possible and most likely welcomes his monthly transformations. He would want his followers to be werewolves that felt as he did.

If Remus had to give up his potion, then he would fully transform into a werewolf every month with no way of controlling his natural werewolf instincts. Is that why Remus was very unhappy with his job as underground spy? Did he have to be with Grayback and the others when they all transformed and did he have to go running with the pack?

Maybe these are questions that will never be answered and that we don't need to be answered.

That one aspect bugged me a bit, too. I'm still trying to understand exactly what Lupin's mission required of him (was it going to be a giveaway because they'd notice he was corresponding with wizards? Was he literally among them at all times-- living in a werewolf slum or something? I can't quite picture what the physical werewolf underground is like...), but we saw him at the Burrow at least twice, so surely there were moments where he could have written.

Perhaps he didn't want to initiate an open correspondence with Harry, as he might have been sent letters while on his missions, but it seems odd that he didn't send bulletins off at the very least-- encouraging words and a general updates on life. Harry understands that Lupin is busy, and would no doubt have been cooperative if he knew that he couldn't send letters or expect them regularly.
Good points. He obviously wasn't with the werewolves all the time. He could have sent a note, then said, please do not respond.

with the end of his teaching experience, he had to stop counting on the potion's help Isn't it ironic and sad that Remus had to depend on Snape for what was likely a uniquely enjoyable time in his life?


I was pondering in the werewolf/Fenrir thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=60449) how Fenrir transformed and untransformed states are bleeding into one another. Fenrir obviously has werewolf tendencies (to put it mildly) when it's not the full moon. For a long time, based on discussion we've had here, I had disliked the idea that Remus struggled with his lycanthropy when he was untransformed. I rejected the idea that he had heightened senses, baser instincts, and the like that he tried to suppress. But now, I'm revisiting that, and wondering how much his lycanthropy affects him physically and mentally when he is in his human state.

I was pondering in the werewolf/Fenrir thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=60449) how Fenrir transformed and untransformed states are bleeding into one another. Fenrir obviously has werewolf tendencies (to put it mildly) when it's not the full moon. For a long time, based on discussion we've had here, I had disliked the idea that Remus struggled with his lycanthropy when he was untransformed. I rejected the idea that he had heightened senses, baser instincts, and the like that he tried to suppress. But now, I'm revisiting that, and wondering how much his lycanthropy affects him physically and mentally when he is in his human state.

I never liked to think about Remus struggling with his condition outside the full moon either, but this is the reason he pushes so many people away. We also have to remember even though Bill did not get bitten by a transformed werewolf he will still have some of those baser instincts in everyday life. So imagine if you were a full werewolf when the full moon rose, there would have to be struggles everyday with this condition. This all makes me very say :upset: I am having a hard time with this book as it pertains to Remus like Credo, I want desperately to love it but Remus was very sad and different than the strong Remus we all know and love. And the whole romance thing turned me off I have a hard time thinking Remus was so down because of his great love for Tonks and I didn't get the feeling that he was sharing the same feelings she was in the hospital, denial coming through again. I am very wishy washy on the whole thing maybe when everyone gets back we start analyzing we will all feel better.

I have a hard time thinking Remus was so down because of his great love for Tonks and I didn't get the feeling that he was sharing the same feelings she was in the hospital, denial coming through again.
I agree. People in the relationships thread are saying "Oh, Remus must have looked so thin and ill because he was pining for Tonks!" Have they already forgotten he was ill and thin in PoA and Ootp, before all this crush stuff began? The poor man has no job and, with the Order abandoning 12GP, apparently no home. From his conversation with Harry it sounds like he's living in a slum stealing food to survive - I think anyone in those conditions would be in bad shape, relationships or no.

I have a hard time thinking Remus was so down because of his great love for Tonks and I didn't get the feeling that he was sharing the same feelings she was in the hospital, denial coming through again.I also agree that Remus's looking ill had nothing to do with wanting to proclaim his love for Tonks, I think it had more to do with the fact that he was being forced to live a life that was the complete antithesis of the life he wanted to live. In other words, having to live among the werewolves, whose acceptance and trust was very hard for Remus to earn, and to which he was likely trying to steer away from Voldemort, drained a lot out of Remus. As (I believe) Credo mentioned, JKR seems to be forcing Remus to live as "the werewolf", the stereotype of what the wizarding world fears about werewolves. In essence, he had to become one of them in order to get them to take him into their fold (a place he in truth would never want to be)- he may have had to participate in things he didn't want to. I imagine living in a manner that opposite everything you believe in would take a lot out of you. I also imagine Remus was feeling ashamed with these werewolves and what they were doing. Now more than ever, he probably had a heightened sense of shame at being a werewolf and an enhanced awareness of the idea that the wizarding world has some things right about werewolves (ie that they are extremely dangerous). So all of these things have likely caused Remus to look more gaunt and ragged than ever.

Do we have any info about the life span of a werewolf? It has to be taxing on the body to transform monthly. I realize he was in a horrible place and is weak from that but he has been getting progressively weak in OotP too.

I also agree that Remus's looking ill had nothing to do with wanting to proclaim his love for Tonks, I think it had more to do with the fact that he was being forced to live a life that was the complete antithesis of the life he wanted to live.

I did a post similar to that in the importance of werewolves thread. Basically we have Lupin who has always chased after his humanity and embraced it as much as he could. A man who wants to be human because he fulyl understands what his choices are. Now we have Greyback who is the exact opposite and denies his humanity in all its forms. Then to place Lupin into having to living and acting like these people who are the exact opposite of who and what he has strived his whole life to be is bound to take a major major toll with him. He is essentially being placed in a position of weedling away his humanity in order to show others their own humanity.

Furthermore, I get the impression that, even though this thing has been going on for a long time, Tonks and Lupin really haven't been together romantically long enough to consider marriage. Here's how I see the progression of their relationship:

- By the end of OoTP, Tonks was probably interested in Lupin, but hadn't made a move yet (I think that if anyone made a move, it was her, which will make sense after the following).

- Somewhere in those few weeks between the end of OoTP and the point where Harry gets to the Burrow, Tonks has expressed her feelings for Lupin, which he probably reciprocated, but resisted the relationship for the reasons that he gives at the end of HBP.

- During the course of HBP, there was a lot of talk, a lot of Molly as a go-between, consoling Tonks and trying to convince Lupin, a lot of chance meetings within the Order or at the Burrow that result in these "millions of time" in which they've both expressed their thoughts on the relationship. Tonks is getting more and more worn down, Lupin is in more and more dangerous situations. . .

- The hospital scene was a breakthrough, in many ways, for Lupin. If it wasn't the example of Bill and Fleur in front of him, it was his grief, and his realization that he needed someone to share it with, and that someone had been right there in front of him for many, many months, and he'd been pushing her away. The decision had to be Lupin's, and considering the short amount of time between that night and when we see them together at Dumbledore's funeral, I feel like Lupin's grief had to be a factor more than it would obviously be otherwise.

So, based on that, I think that the hand-holding that we see at the end of HBP is only the beginning of their relationship. . . the end of a long period of time in which the proper feelings were there, but never fulfilled due to Lupin's objections. I hardly think that either of them is already considering marriage, for that reason.


I completely agree. This sudden outburst of hormones--or whatever you want to call it :p --is another example of the theme of love, and relationships are definitely tested during war! I think she wants to show us the kind of love that survives, which is why we see a very superficial relationship between, for example, Ron and Lavendar, but a much more tender and innocent one blossoming between Ron and Hermione. Tonks and Lupin have their relationship tested before it even begins, but it ends up working because Tonks loves him in spite of it.


Definitely worth the wait! The Lupinites new mantra--"Let us take a cue from Tonks: we love Lupin enough to wait for him!" ;)First off, I'm so glad to be back! I was out of town for a week, but made sure we were home in time to get the book. Ahh, bliss!! :p Second, I could not have been more surprised at the identity of the HBP! (Although when I saw the name was in the POTIONS book, I began to suspect ...) Brilliant how JKR has Lupin tell Harry that it couldn't have been anyone in their (James/Sirius/Lupin's) year because of how old the book was. Who would have thought the book belonged to their parents' generation? Third (off-topic), why wasn't Aberforth seen at the funeral? Perhaps he was there but Harry didn't recognize him, having never (that he knows of) met him?

Anyway, Credo Buffa, I couldn't agree more! I'd like to add to your words. You theorized (and I agree) that the Remus/Tonks relationship has been brewing for a while, and that at the end of HBP it's finally taking off. I must point out that we see almost everything from Harry's point of view. Hagrid had to tell the Trio about his adventures with Maxime in giant country, and everyone had to tell Harry about what had happened while he was in the cave with Dumbledore. There is a lot that goes on out of Harry's sight that we find out about later. There's just no way that JKR could have developed the Remus/Tonks relationship in front of Harry's eyes, other than the brief hints we saw earlier. And both Remus and Tonks were trying to be discreet, since clearly there were plenty of obstacles in the way of any possible relationship.

And Tonks's outburst in the infirmary seemed natural to me. People do strange things when they are grieving. And let's not forget that they had all moments earlier been fighting for their lives. Tonks was probably terrified that Remus could have been killed right in front of her. I doubt she was in a particularly "appropriate" frame of mind. I think she felt she simply had no other choice but to seize the moment, because she was feeling how precious moments truly are. Let's eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we may die ...

You know as much as I'm not a fan of Remus&Tonx HBP' romance I think that the fact he was so down has something to do with Tonx...I mean the scene during the Christmas when Molly forced them all to listen to that love song, he seemed to be so melancholic and out of there.
Also though "But I dont care either I dont care either!" could easily be one of the cheesiest line ever, I think that Remus shares her feelings- in other case we wouldnt have seen them holding hands at the end. We all know what kind of person he is- calm, reserved, introvert. Displays of affection in public place are not his couple of tea. Hugging Sirius in Shack is one thing, declaring his love for Tonx with dozen of people watching right after Dumbledore' death- it's another.

I think it had more to do with the fact that he was being forced to live a life that was the complete antithesis of the life he wanted to live. ... As (I believe) Credo mentioned, JKR seems to be forcing Remus to live as "the werewolf", the stereotype of what the wizarding world fears about werewolves.

Choice is such a crucial element in the series... And we see characters talk about it all the time... "our choices make us who we are..." "Chosing between what is easy and what is right" (forgive the hasty quotes). In HBP, we see Dumbledore making very hard requests of Harry, and apparently Snape, as evidenced by Hagrid's comments (I think to knock him off if needed,,, but you can disagree!)

Perhaps this extra-bummed out Lupin is also an example of this. He has to chose to become what he absolutely hates about himself, but Dumbledore has requested it, and he's struggling to follow through... which would also contribute to his response at Dumbledores death: He is doing things, at Dumbledore's request, that he hates, but trusts Dumbledore... now Dumbledore dies... In his upset state, he could be wondering if Dumbledore was wrong... and also processing guilt for any anger at Dumbledore for asking him to be with the werewolves....

Perhaps if Harry doesn't go back to Hogwarts (how will the adults of the Order react to this decision?!) we'll see more of all Order characters.

Third (off-topic), why wasn't Aberforth seen at the funeral? Perhaps he was there but Harry didn't recognize him, having never (that he knows of) met him?

He was there, Harry mentions the barman from *** Hog's Head, listing him in the people he only knows by sight.
Let's not forget Harry still hasn't realised he's DD's brother...


RLF and rust_loup made a great point.
Remus was forced to live the kind of life he's run from all his life, that has to have taken a HUGE ton on him.

It makes me wonder: having to blend with the werewolves and gaigning their trust, do you think he had to do the one thing he probably fears more, which emans attacking people at the full moon?
He mentioned Greyback being the leader, and that he has an habit on positioning himself close to humans to attack them... think he had to go with them on these "raids"?
It seems likely...unfortunately...

God, poor Remus... :upset:

think he had to go with them on these "raids"?
It seems likely...unfortunately...


Especially after the scene in Christmas on the Closed Ward from OotP where he goes off to sit and talk with the patient bit by a werewolf. The gesture always struck me as a particularly moving event. It was always my favorite part of that whole chapter. Spoke loads about his character.

How would his work with the werewolves be affected by the loss of Dumbledore and the attainment of a significant other? Would he continue to do this work, as important as it is?

The man deserves a break, and some comfort. And I really hope that he is able to make a difference in the war where the werewolves are concerned.

How would his work with the werewolves be affected by the loss of Dumbledore and the attainment of a significant other? Would he continue to do this work, as important as it is?

This is difficult to answer -- Dumbledore was the one who believed and tried to convince everyone that everybody is equal no matter what race or family background they have and that was why Remus was trying to convince more of the werewolves that it Voldemort os tricking them, but now, with the Ministry being still pretty conservative, it might be difficult. What would you tell now to a werewolf that is not sure whom to trust? Voldemort promises freedom and lots of victims, but the "good side" has now nothing to offer because the only defender of werewolves, centaurs, merpeople etc whose infuence in the wizarding world was substantial, is now gone?

OT: It's good to see you, lupinites, here after the release! Unfortunately I won't be able to be online for almost 2 weeks now :/

I agree. People in the relationships thread are saying "Oh, Remus must have looked so thin and ill because he was pining for Tonks!" Have they already forgotten he was ill and thin in PoA and Ootp, before all this crush stuff began? The poor man has no job and, with the Order abandoning 12GP, apparently no home. From his conversation with Harry it sounds like he's living in a slum stealing food to survive - I think anyone in those conditions would be in bad shape, relationships or no.
In addition to this, I think he's pretty darn depressed with his work for the Order. I think he probably feels abandoned in a lot of ways, more down on himself than ever (Did you notice how he reacted when he talked about Snape revealing him as a werewolf to the school? That really got me. . .). But I definitely agree that his even more extreme appearance of illness here doesn't have much to do with Tonks, if at all.

It makes me wonder: having to blend with the werewolves and gaigning their trust, do you think he had to do the one thing he probably fears more, which emans attacking people at the full moon?... think he had to go with them on these "raids"? It seems likely...unfortunately...If that were the case, I don't think the fates could have slammed poor Remus more cruelly! :no:

Dumbledore would not have asked that of him, though. Act the spy, infiltrate the community, work to the best of his ability counter the savage brainwashing of Greyback-- this he could and it would just mean sacrificing his own comfort for the Order. But partaking in their rampages would be crossing a line -- no matter what the circumstances. Dumbledore would never require that of him, and I'm certain that Lupin wouldn't do it, anyway. It's everything that's repugnant to his nature, and one bite undoes everything he's worked to all his life. . .

Plus, by the way he spoke of it, he was trying to infiltrate and introduce a "reasoned argument" against the bloodthirst, wasn't he? I wasn't under the impression that the full-moon raids were widespread, and he wouldn't have to steal and kill if it was his job to try and win people over to his side. :)

I agree with most of you that Lupin's haggard appearance had little or nothing to do with Tonks. His mission was so stressful that it'd take its toll on anyone, and break most; it preoccupied him and I don't think Tonks was even on his mind very much. I feel very bad for him because it must have been eating away at him constantly.

In addition to this, I think he's pretty darn depressed with his work for the Order. I think he probably feels abandoned in a lot of ways, more down on himself than ever (Did you notice how he reacted when he talked about Snape revealing him as a werewolf to the school? That really got me. . .)Nice observation! He doesn't talk much of himself, either (or doesn't give much weight to his own problems). And it's harder when you feel like you've got to handle it alone. He's not the type to complain, but he's always taken the high road and here he is, being asked to immerse himself in this infested community. That's got to be majorly demoralizing, and though he could rise above it and call it "necessary work," it doesn't make it any less depressing.

But partaking in their rampages would be crossing a line -- no matter what the circumstances. Dumbledore would never require that of him, and I'm certain that Lupin wouldn't do it, anyway.I agree, I don't believe Lupin would do anything like joining in full moon raids, no matter how much he wanted to gain their trust and fit in. There must have been some way for him to spend his transformations in safety.

Credo, I disagree.

I have the impression that Tonks and Lupin were together for a while and then he decided to end the relationship. The way I see it, they got together in OOTP. At the beginning of HBP they broke up- Sirius's death and the constant danger in which Remus was contributing to this situation. And since then Remus and Tinks have not been very much in contact. Tonks avoided him at the beginning of the book. And when they saw each other, Remus couldn't get past his three faults- at least in his opinion.

But at the end of HBP they got back together

hjohnson[/B]]I never liked to think about Remus struggling with his condition outside the full moon either, but this is the reason he pushes so many people away. We also have to remember even though Bill did not get bitten by a transformed werewolf he will still have some of those baser instincts in everyday life. So imagine if you were a full werewolf when the full moon rose, there would have to be struggles everyday with this condition. This all makes me very say :upset: I am having a hard time with this book as it pertains to Remus like Credo, I want desperately to love it but Remus was very sad and different than the strong Remus we all know and love. And the whole romance thing turned me off I have a hard time thinking Remus was so down because of his great love for Tonks and I didn't get the feeling that he was sharing the same feelings she was in the hospital, denial coming through again. I am very wishy washy on the whole thing maybe when everyone gets back we start analyzing we will all feel better.

I don#t see him as weak in this book!

On the contrary, I see him stronger than ever. He is no longer too gentle and sweet Remus. He is a MAN. His attitude towards Tonks, his conversations with Harry, all prove this conclusion.

He is no longer gentle Lupin who tries to make Harry see the truth in a delicate way. he is more forcefull now. Now it is like : I am telling you what i think, you do what you want!

Probably his interaction with the werewolves had hardened him even more.


RemusLupinFan

I don't think Remus feels ashamed do be a werewolf because of his interaction with the other werewolves and what they are forced to do. Quite the contrary. he hates his condition, true.

But the way I see it, from his conversations, he feels sorry for the werewolves, for not having been given an opportunity. he pitties them and he identifies with them.

If he had feeled ashamed of them he would not have referred to them as to: my equals, my fellows.

I agree, I don't believe Lupin would do anything like joining in full moon raids, no matter how much he wanted to gain their trust and fit in. There must have been some way for him to spend his transformations in safety.

Well, we do know there is a potion to let him keep his human mind and I daresay Dumbledore took every available precaution to keep him from hurting someone. The problem with that would be getting it often enough and have a wizard handy who is up to preparing it for him. Maybe via hip flask ala fake Moody?

But I do agree that some precaution would be made. Dumbledore would not allow it and Lupin most definitly would not.

don#t see him as weak in this book!

GLL, I didn't mean to say weak, I guess I didn't write my thought clear, sorry.

What I meant to say is this is such a different Remus than we have seen before. Even with his condition in POA he was able to deal with that part of him and be the person who could give everyone else the things they need. In HBP I see him as really struggling with himself, he is having to, for the good of the cause, be around the thing he hates and fears most about himself being a werewolf. I am almost scared to say this but in this book with him doing this duty it would be hard for him to be a mentor to Harry because of the struggles with himself he is dealing with which is very understandable. Believe me I would be the last person to call Remus weak.

I hope some of this made sense. I will be glad when our fellow Lupinites get back maybe some of my feelings will be said a lot clearer than I am making them.

I was so glad to hear more from Lupin in this book. After PoA...he kind of went into the background alot. And finding out his post for the Order was spying on the werewolf community!, WOW! But the thing is...does Voldemort know that Lupin is 'in' that circle of werewolfs that he is commanding? I dont think that this is true, but could Lupin be pulling a Snape on us? Could Lupin actually be in the dark side too?
but almost answering my own question...Lupin was second to Sirius with being close to James...

My first question after finishing the book was now that Greyback witnessed Lupin fighting for the Order at Hogwarts, it doesn't seem very likely that Lupin will be able to continue his role as spy for the werewolves. So, what do you think Lupin will do?

Well Lupin will need to be extra careful now IMO. I think Greyback will be wanting to kill Lupin since he knows he is working for the Order. :upset:

Also, what did you think of Lupin's reaction to Dumbledore's death? We rarely see him show that much emotion, and even Harry was slightly taken aback.

DD was one of the few people who accepted Lupin as a werewolf and realized it wasn't what made him who he was. That he was who he was inspite of being a werewolf. DD gave Lupin a chance at a somewhat normal childhood by letting him attend Hogwarts where he made such great friends. It had to feel like losing a parent when he heard DD was dead.

I loved the entire Tonks loving Lupin reveal. It was so out of the blue and so great! I want Lupin to be happy and I really think Tonks will make him happy.

I just wish we had gotten to see more of Lupin in HBP than we did.

I loved seeing Lupin, but we must be careful about how much he shows up. The more he's involved in the heat of the action, and with Harry, sadly, I do believe the more likely he is to die or be severly injured in some way. So I'll gladly take my Lupin in doses, so he can live!

I loved seeing Lupin, but we must be careful about how much he shows up. The more he's involved in the heat of the action, and with Harry, sadly, I do believe the more likely he is to die or be severly injured in some way. So I'll gladly take my Lupin in doses, so he can live!
ha ha, good point ;) That's the catch, isn't it? We want to see more of Lupin alive, but the more we see him, the more likely he probably is to die. . .

I think his actions and personality in HBP sheds some insight into how Sirius could have thought him the informer as mentioned in PoA. If he is having to do now what he did then then we see someone whom we know is fraternizing with the enemy to an extent and is showing signs that it is getting to him (or a weak person who wears his heart on his sleeve as implied by Snape in OotP).

I loved seeing Lupin, but we must be careful about how much he shows up. The more he's involved in the heat of the action, and with Harry, sadly, I do believe the more likely he is to die or be severly injured in some way. So I'll gladly take my Lupin in doses, so he can live!
I actually happen to agree with you. :) I think someone else said earlier that in not making Lupin a parent figure or mentor to Harry, she's essentially keeping him alive. I think she knows about us Lupinites somehow. ;)

I think his actions and personality in HBP sheds some insight into how Sirius could have thought him the informer as mentioned in PoA. If he is having to do now what he did then then we see someone whom we know is fraternizing with the enemy to an extent and is showing signs that it is getting to him (or a weak person who wears his heart on his sleeve as implied by Snape in OotP).
That's a really excellent observation, rust_loup! I definitely feel like Lupin is more on-edge than he has been in the past, and is obviously showing signs of strain at his task for the Order. If he was doing similar work at the time of the Potters' betrayal, he was no doubt showing similar signs, and that change of character, especially in an already tense environment, might be taken the wrong way.

That's a really excellent observation, rust_loup! I definitely feel like Lupin is more on-edge than he has been in the past, and is obviously showing signs of strain at his task for the Order. If he was doing similar work at the time of the Potters' betrayal, he was no doubt showing similar signs, and that change of character, especially in an already tense environment, might be taken the wrong way.

Danke for the compliment(pardon me if I make a mistake by taking it as such).

I also think it shows a good deal on Lupin's nature. He is so strong in helping with the problems on the outside but relativly frightened of those on the inside.

I am almost scared to say this but in this book with him doing this duty it would be hard for him to be a mentor to Harry because of the struggles with himself he is dealing with which is very understandable. Believe me I would be the last person to call Remus weak.I agree completely. I think this book shows us that Remus still has some demons he needs to sort out within himself. Not that he's weak or he wouldn't be fit to be a mentor to Harry because of this, but I do agree that Lupin's inner struggle at this particular point could have made it very difficult to be Harry's mentor. And it's even harder when Harry doesn't really talk too much with him either. But given the right circumstances, I'd say that Remus could have been a very good mentor for Harry.
We want to see more of Lupin alive, but the more we see him, the more likely he probably is to die. . .You're right, unfortunately! *Petitions* More living Lupin!

I think his actions and personality in HBP sheds some insight into how Sirius could have thought him the informer as mentioned in PoA. If he is having to do now what he did then then we see someone whom we know is fraternizing with the enemy to an extent and is showing signs that it is getting to him (or a weak person who wears his heart on his sleeve as implied by Snape in OotP).You're absolutely right. Before HBP came out, I had always thought that whatever Lupin's (now not so) mysterious work for the Order might have caused his friends to think he was the spy because he would have been away from their presence for extended periods of time. I also think, even more now that we know what Lupin was doing, that Remus's mission among the werewolves would have made them suspect him even more. And with Peter's whisperings in Sirius' ear, so to speak, about the lack of trustworthiness of Remus due to his mission, this would have made them all the more suspicious.

On a different note, I never got to comment on Remus' reaction to Dumbledore's death. We are told it's the first time Harry sees him lose control, and I think this is due to the fact that Dumbledore was a bit of a father figure and great helper for Remus. After all, he gave the man a chance to go to school, when he would have been shunned by anyone else. He gave Remus a paying job and a chance to prove himself, which I know meant a lot to him. He also fought beside Dumbledore in the Order of the Phoenix, and I think he looked up to him to a certain degree. Dumbledore was a steady rock for so many people, not just Harry and Lupin, so it's no wonder that so many people were devastated when he died (myself included).

I never thought Lupin would turn out to be the HBP, but I was surprised to see who it actually was.

The fact that we didn't get to see much of him in this book was something I had expected, with Harry being in school and all. But since he doesn't intend to go back for his final year I'd say all bets are off concerning who will play a larger role and who won't.

Lupin & Tonks... Well, when I first read it my initial reaction was "No!". Not because I dislike Tonks in any way, her slightly odd appearance, flaky behaviour and clumsyness, mixed with her apparent brains and courage remind me a bit of Dumbledore, though on a smaller scale, and I like that. The combination of these character traits makes her interesting and - above all - human, since people aren't all good, all evil or all "normal". However, it did bother me because that pretty much sank the only ship I've ever devoted any time and thought process to. Then I started thinking... With "my" ship, our cuddly werewolf was pretty much doomed to a lonely, unhappy life and because of that I hadn't expected him to live through book 7, but now he has a reason to, not only fight, but actually live once the war is over (not that people necessarily need romantic love to be happy, just that poor Remus has been through so much that very few things could make his life worthwhile at this point). And I'm happy for him.
Yes, the book was a bit heavy on the "shipping"-side, but this particular one was more justified than the others, at least to me, and I don't think it was brought on suddenly for the simple reason that we follow Harry, he's our eyes and insight to the wizarding world (with very few exceptions) and how was he supposed to pick up on this? Besides, Tonks' behaviour in HBP was just another mystery for us to try and solve throughout the book - I like making up theories when I read my HP!
With Lupin's general behaviour since the death of Sirius (based on what we've seen of it), I think he's in for a much brighter future - as long as he's left standing at the end of book 7.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I haven't hugged my Remus today.

Danke for the compliment(pardon me if I make a mistake by taking it as such).
It's definitely a compliment, don't worry :)

Yes, the book was a bit heavy on the "shipping"-side, but this particular one was more justified than the others, at least to me, and I don't think it was brought on suddenly for the simple reason that we follow Harry, he's our eyes and insight to the wizarding world (with very few exceptions) and how was he supposed to pick up on this? Besides, Tonks' behaviour in HBP was just another mystery for us to try and solve throughout the book - I like making up theories when I read my HP!
When you put it that way, you're definitely right: we did have a mystery to solve with Tonks, and it just happened that the solution was a ship! The ship might have come out of nowhere, but the effects certainly didn't.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I haven't hugged my Remus today.
Goodness, go! Don't keep your Remus waiting! :)

I have to say that I was thrilled about the whole Lupin/Tonks thing - he's such a nice guy, and it's about time that somebody noticed!
I love the acceptance that he has found within the Order - after being shunned as a monster for most of his life, here's Harry saying "But you are normal! [...] You've just got a - a problem-" (pg 314, Aust. Edition) - and James' reaction was (apparently) the same! His "furry little problem". It's nice that they don't care about that.

I have to say that I was thrilled about the whole Lupin/Tonks thing - he's such a nice guy, and it's about time that somebody noticed!
I love the acceptance that he has found within the Order - after being shunned as a monster for most of his life, here's Harry saying "But you are normal! [...] You've just got a - a problem-" (pg 314, Aust. Edition) - and James' reaction was (apparently) the same! His "furry little problem". It's nice that they don't care about that.
It also shows that Harry still does care about Lupin, and so do many other people. Speaking of Lupin and Harry, aren't they doing a similiar thing by the end of the book? I mean, that Remus has been trying to not get close to others, because he fears that if he does, he'll lose them. He's lost all his friends, and someone who has let him come to Hogwarts in the first place, werewolf or not.
Harry, at the end of the book, breaks up with Ginny because he knows that: Voldemort uses people his enemies are close to.
He doesn't want to have to go to Ginny's funeral as well. He's already lost his parents, Dumbledore and Sirius. :sad:

ETA:
But there are still parts that show Remus still cares about Harry-course he does! :) I think it's because Harry is becoming far more independant, and not so reliant on adults, because he is becoming an adult. I'd agree that Remus half rising from his chair when Scrimgouer wanted to chat with Harry in the Weasleys' garden showed a protective gesture for Harry. Also, his not sending letter while amongst the other werewolves shows that he wants Harry safe. What if one of the letters were intercepted by a death eater or someone similiar, and they knew where Harry and/or Remus were? :scared:
What about in the hospital wing when Ginny said that Dumbledore was dead, and he'd looked from Ginny to Harry, "as though expecting the latter to contradict her"?
Did that even make sense at all?

It was so sweet how he and Tonks got together ;)

I think this was a hard year for Lupin. He has always tried to be as normal as he could and all the sudden he had to go live with a bunch of bitter werewolves underground.....i feel bad for the guy.

He also fought beside Dumbledore in the Order of the Phoenix, and I think he looked up to him to a certain degree.I agree. I think you can even see a bit of Dumbledore in Lupin, in his tolerance and openmindedness.

I felt that Lupin's breakdown was only unexpected to Harry's experience of him. Dumbledore had sympathy for Lupin as a child and I think that's a huge part of it. Harry, Hagrid, and Lupin all felt Dumbledore's compassion as children and they seemed to be the most deeply affected by his death. Gratitude strenghtens devotion and it's always kind of staggering when someone who has held that place in your youth dies. When they're that much of a rock it's hard to believe that they can die.

It also shows that Harry still does care about Lupin, and so do many other people. Speaking of Lupin and Harry, aren't they doing a similiar thing by the end of the book?Yeah, it's similar. ^^; Harry pushes Ginny away because he doesn't want her to be endangered because of him. I don't think it was fear of losing people that motivated Lupin-- I think if he was distant because he was very, very busy, and he pushed Tonks away because he wasn't sure of his own worth. It's just his bad luck that all the people close to him die ( :upset: ), but I think he's gotten over a big internal hurdle and won't push people away-- Harry has still got to realize that love is an advantage for him, if anything. :)

I think Dumbledore might have been one of the few to trust Remus during the first war too. It seems he might have been rather estranged to the rest of the Marauders back then. :upset:

I don't think it was fear of losing people that motivated Lupin-- I think if he was distant because he was very, very busy, and he pushed Tonks away because he wasn't sure of his own worth. It's just his bad luck that all the people close to him die ( :upset: ), but I think he's gotten over a big internal hurdle and won't push people away-- Harry has still got to realize that love is an advantage for him, if anything. :)
I agree. I'm sure Lupin has some fear of losing people he loves, but who doesn't? I definitely think that low self-esteem and a genuine belief that he doesn't deserve that kind of love were the main motivating factors in his pushing Tonks away. And you're definitely right about love being an advantage here: Harry is trying to distance himself from people he loves at the same time that Lupin is bringing someone into his life. It's a very interesting parallel, because they are both people who are extremely in need of people in their lives who care about them. I think that Lupin finally letting Tonks into his life is a sure sign that he's, at least to some degree, figured out that he needs that more than ever at this troublesome time in his life, and I think that Harry will figure that out too. . . I definitely don't think his relationship with Ginny is even close to being over, despite what he may say ;)

On a not-so-completely unrelated note, since the Shrieking Shack in the QP is still closed, and I promised I'd post a picture of my "I Love Lupin" t-shirt, here it is (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/ptacey/ILoveLupin.jpg)! It's not from the night of the release, but only because I was so worn out and short on sleep that I looked like death that night and was afraid that I'd scare you :p This one's not a whole lot better (just ignore the hair. . .), but the t-shirt still looks good!

By the way, hobbitseeker, I never commented on your picture from the release party. You make a perfect Ginny! :D

Hello everyone! I'd been away from the forums for the week prior to HBP and wanted to post before the forums closed but sadly they were closed earlier that expected, and now I'm delighted that they're open again!:)

I finally read all 10 pages of the thread, I can barely keep up!:)


First and foremost, despite the lack of Remus, I could feel myself falling in love with him all over again. Like alot of us here, I really became upset when Lupin lost control, and I found it interesting how Harry thought it felt almost indecent to watch.
At first I was really dissapointed that we only see Lupin at the Burrow in the summer to announce deaths, I wanted to scream at Harry "Ask him questions! Talk to him, you ididot!" :p

On Tonks/Lupin, for me it felt like getting a birthday present that you had wished for in your heart but weren't expecting realistically, and it's unexpectedness makes it even more awesome. I know it's kind of dorky but I've been having a rough week so far and if I want to cheer myself up I remind myself that they are together, and things don't seem so bad. I know this is getting dangerously close to Mary Sue territory, but when Ron said "Listen, no bloke in his right mind's going to fancy Tonks when Fleur's around", I could really identify with Tonks from then on.
But getting back to Remus, I loved how he just stared into the fire as the love song was playing (of course I was surprised JKR managed to get away with printing those lyrics! "Cauldron full of hot strong love" indeed :p , it showed that she wasn't some girl he had no interest in but was pained to keep pushing her away. Something so ironic about the fact that Lupin is one of the easiest people to get along with in the books and knows exactly what to say to people, yet he is also the one who has the most trouble with accepting intimacy.


Edits: Wow Credo, that shirt looks awesome!:D It's a very pretty pic of you too.

More thoughts on HBP;
I actually was predicting that the HBP whoever he was wouldn't be a good guy, and I was kinda right on that (it depends on what JKR does to Snape in book 7) but I was still dumbfounded it was a major character, cause that's why I couldn't let myself believe 100% that Remus could be the HBP.
I was happy that Remus lived through the book AND that there will be no death by poking, but was also dissapointed that he never took on a father figure role and probably never will. Of course I'd still like to think that he was Harry's first mentor and first adult that he could trust and confide in (I still can't see Hagrid as being on the same, well, adult level that Lupin is)

I'm still hoping that Remus will be key to alot of the backstory about Harry's parents and Sirius and all that before he embarks on Godric's Hollow. Speaking of which, do you think that could be where Lupin lives when he's not with the werewolves? Cause when Dumbledore told Sirius to ''lie low at Lupin's" he obviously has a place of his own at that point, but we were never told where it was. *sigh* Remember when we all thought Spinner's End was where Lupin lived? And Snape lives there instead. It's funny how much we thought was gonna be Lupin's ended up going to Snape; Spinner's End, the title of HBP, the DADA job (my heart lept when Dumbledore mentioned an 'old colleage' would teach, but I guess I shoulda known it wouldnt be Lupin). Hell and now it looks like that Snape, and not Lupin, will be one of the main keys to book 7 as well :grumble:

But I'm still clinging to the hope that Lupin will be the one illuminating us on the mysteries of James and Lily. If it wasn't a matter of only knowing about them when it's good for the plot, Harry would have asked all about them from both Remus and Sirius. I'm still wondering if Lupin was in any of the pictures in the photo album Hagrid gave to Harry.

One thing I hope will play a big part might be what exactly Lupin's father did to offend Greyback, and will it be part of the plot? As much as I may find the idea of Lupin giving in to his 'animal instincts' kinda hot (as a result of too much fanfic of a certain kind;), i still wanted to cry that he had to live underground. I was still glad though to get more backstory on werewolves themselves.

I agree. I'm sure Lupin has some fear of losing people he loves, but who doesn't? I definitely think that low self-esteem and a genuine belief that he doesn't deserve that kind of love were the main motivating factors in his pushing Tonks away. And you're definitely right about love being an advantage here: Harry is trying to distance himself from people he loves at the same time that Lupin is bringing someone into his life. It's a very interesting parallel, because they are both people who are extremely in need of people in their lives who care about them. I think that Lupin finally letting Tonks into his life is a sure sign that he's, at least to some degree, figured out that he needs that more than ever at this troublesome time in his life, and I think that Harry will figure that out too. . . I definitely don't think his relationship with Ginny is even close to being over, despite what he may say

This is something Harry really has to learn and maybe this is were Remus comes in. In the end Harry must defeat VM alone but the journey he needs help. Remus does finally realize that is it is time to let someone into his life and help him for a change, I am sure he still has his worries about it but he is making the first step. Maybe he can get Harry to realize that with others help and love he can accomplish better what he needs to do in the end to defeat VM.

Love the shirt, Credo it turned out great :cool: Has anyone said when the QP will be open again? I am missing the shack.