Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side?

So, will he? Do you think he will come back and fight for the Order in the final battle, or is he on the Dark side through and through? Or is he still on the good side, just never left it?

I don't think that Snape ever left.
Dumbledore trusted Snape but he wasn't a fool, it won't have been one self recrimatory sentence that convinced Dumbledore that Snape was sincere, there will have been many acts over the years that will have confirmed his belief.

Also, there was a meeting between Snape and Dumbledore with an argument. Was this Dumbledore telling Snape that if, in the end, it was the only recourse then Snape was to A.K. Dumbledore.

I think that up till Snape arriving when Dumbledore was talking to Malfoy, DD was in charge of himself and then after Snape arrived his demeanor changed. He was pleading with Snape to get on with it.

There is also the bit where Snape was countering all the spells of Harry's, when Harry had run after Snape and Malfoy after Dumbledores death, and throwing out information whilst he did it. Not something that you would tell your enemy.

I think, that snape is on his own side. Neither really involved with voldemort nor with the order of the phoenix.

This "I'm the halfblood-prince" stuff is so similar to "I'm lord voldemort" that I just can't see snape really being one of voldemorts obedient followers.

There are similarities:

tom riddle - lord voldemort - chosen by himself to be unique and gain power - to fill the lack of love in sake of himself
severus snape - the half blood prince - chosen by himself to what? be accepted - overcome a low selfesteem? - to fill the lack of love in sake of himself
harry potter - the chosen one - not chosen by himself but accepted his role - to make the world better for all/others- to be able to love again (?) - NOT in the sake of himself


harry and voldemort clearly take opposite sides - but snape, doesn't matter if good or not good, could be bringing the decision for one side.

It perhaps could be a bit like smeagol in lord of the rings. He wasn't good, he wasn't totally bad - he fulfilled the mission...

i kept thinking that (even though i so knew he was evil!!) he could have pretended to A.K him and actually said a different spell in his head, but then i realised he had not. i was so angry when harry said why dumbledore trusted snape, it cant just be for that, it must be something else.

i agree (reluctantly) with bunny it must be for the "greater good" that snape killed dumbledore. but thats only because i can see dumbledore being hoodwinked by such a silly stupid lie such as him being sorry about james.

it must be part of a deeper plan. (fingers crossed)

I don't think that Snape ever left.

I agree. He had formed the unbreakable vow with Narcissa to fulfill Draco's task which undoubtedly was not only to fix the mirror but also to kill Dumbledore as Voldemort wouldnt allow anyone else to do it but Draco. Snape had not alternative at this point.

I believe that Snape and Dumbledore were arguing about this. Snape was saying that he wouldnt fulfil the task and Dumbledore was telling him he had to. Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to kill him because he wanted to save Draco from killing someone and knew that Snape would do so having performed the unbreakable vow.

This is why Snape was furious at being called a coward. In order to remain a spy in Voldemorts inner circle he killed someone who obviously meant a lot to him and therefore lost a lot. He seems to have been brave rather than cowardly.

All in all, Snape had to kill Dumbledore as he has vowed to do so and Dumbledore told him to keep this vow. He is still on the right side and killed Dumbledore to remove any doubt from the death eaters (particularly Bellatrix) that he is fully behind Voldemort, when he is not.

I think Snape is on his own side. I believe he killed Dumbledore to prevent himself from being killed. Snape made the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa, he vowed to help Draco fulfill whatever order he was given by the "Dark Lord" and if Draco would fail, then Snape had to carry out the deed the Dark Lord had given Draco to perform. We learned from Ron that there is no way to break an unbreakable vow, if you break the vow you die. Snape did seem hesitant to make that promise , but he did. I think since Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore, he did since he made the unbreakable vow and didn't want to die himself.

This "Good Guy Snape" Theory is driving me mad. He killed Dumbledore, and it doesn't matter if he wants to be good, Harry is going to kill him somewhere in Book 7. I just really don't know how people can think Snape's still good, he killed Dumbledore. The remaining members of the Order are going to despise him and "jinx him into oblivion" (Tonks, OotP :P) if he ever comes near. Obviously, they were unaware of Dumbledore/Snape's pact if there was one, and no one will believe Snape now. He's probably most wanted by the MoM only behind Voldemort himself, because he killed such an icon of the strength/perseverence in the wizarding world. I don't care if Snape was under 17 different Imperius Curses, 383 Unbreakable Vows, and all of them were forcing him to kill Dumbledore. I don't care if it wasn't Snape at all, but someone drinking the Polyjuice Potion as Snape. I want Snape dead, and I wouldn't mind it being the first page of Book 7, in fact that'd be great. :)

This "Good Guy Snape" Theory is driving me mad. He killed Dumbledore, and it doesn't matter if he wants to be good, Harry is going to kill him somewhere in Book 7. I just really don't know how people can think Snape's still good, he killed Dumbledore. The remaining members of the Order are going to despise him and "jinx him into oblivion" (Tonks, OotP :P) if he ever comes near. Obviously, they were unaware of Dumbledore/Snape's pact if there was one, and no one will believe Snape now. He's probably most wanted by the MoM only behind Voldemort himself, because he killed such an icon of the strength/perseverence in the wizarding world. I don't care if Snape was under 17 different Imperius Curses, 383 Unbreakable Vows, and all of them were forcing him to kill Dumbledore. I don't care if it wasn't Snape at all, but someone drinking the Polyjuice Potion as Snape. I want Snape dead, and I wouldn't mind it being the first page of Book 7, in fact that'd be great. :)
As you said he was under an unbreakable vow which doesnt excuse it but he obviously didnt intend to fulfil it and Dumbledore ordered him to do so in their little argument.
Similarly I cannot stand Snape but I feel he will be both useful and helpful in the next book

I dunno... I mean even though Dumbledore is weak and old, he still seems more of an asset to the Order than Snape could be, so wouldn't Dumbledore realise this and make Snape forfit himself... then again Dumbledore know his time to die is near anyway, but doesn't he also know how much Harry depends on him to defeat Voldemort's Horcruxes. If I had chosen I would prefer that Snape die... unless, of coures, the Half-Blood Prince is much more powerful than potion making and jinx inventing. If Dumbledore did let Snape kill him there must be MUCH more that the HBP is capapble of... oh I hope Snape's a good guy. :sad: AHHHHHH!!!!!! this is sooooo confusing.

I don't care if Snape was under 17 different Imperius Curses, 383 Unbreakable Vows, and all of them were forcing him to kill Dumbledore. I don't care if it wasn't Snape at all, but someone drinking the Polyjuice Potion as Snape. I want Snape dead, and I wouldn't mind it being the first page of Book 7, in fact that'd be great. :)

I have one thing to say to that:

Hell Yes!
Nitwik Blubber Oddment Tweak
In memory of Albus Dumbledore, the greatest headmaster Hogwarts has ever known.

I'm sorry I just don't believe that Snape killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore wanted to die. Nor do I believe he absolutely had to make that un-breakable vow with 'Cissy. He really is just pure evil. I think he wants to be the next Lord Voldemort, he wants power and he wants revenge.

I think there is more too all this than we know right now.There was also more to Dumbledore's trusting Snape than was shown.

I WILL NEVER FORGIVE SNAPE!!!! :upset::upset::upset. :(

Opinion: I'm on the fence.
I want it to be that with all the times Albus was telling Harry that Harry's blood, Harry's safety, Harry's life were far more important than Dumbledore's own, that Dumbledore knew that he had to be killed eventually by someone *Snape*. Legilmency communication between them at the very end. I don't believe Dumbledore would have pleaded for Severus to help him if he thought Severus were there either to save him or how it more sounded like he realized Severus was there to betray him. Either way Albus saw it, he wouldn't have weakened like that verbally. I think that if it was genuine, Albus would have reacted more like going pale with shock and then giving some kind of accepting line like Ceaser's 'Et tu, Brute?" Previous planning on that final sacrifice decision combined with Snapes possibly interpretted unusual behaviour towards Harry during the final chase would show that Snape will have a place in the final book where he is shown to be truely good and redeemed.

That's what I hope. I have a soft spot in my own heart for stories where the bad guys redeem themselves. But alas, here comes the darker side of the fence I am sitting on.

In the more dark-based direction the books have been taking, it would be as we have been shown. Severus was indeed telling the complete truth in the beginning to Narcissa and Bellatrix about his loyalties. So with that ultimate betrayal after such a long time of being shown care, charity and finally trust *DADA position as well as the more important Albus' trust with his life to Snape*, Snape has become the ultimate snake in the grass. There is no final moment of redemption for someone like that.

I believe Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him if a 'situation' came about. But I also believe he didn't tell the Order. Since all of them were suprised with Snape at the end

I don't care if Snape was under 17 different Imperius Curses, 383 Unbreakable Vows, and all of them were forcing him to kill Dumbledore. I don't care if it wasn't Snape at all, but someone drinking the Polyjuice Potion as Snape. I want Snape dead, and I wouldn't mind it being the first page of Book 7, in fact that'd be great.
An eye for and eye much? :huh:

Snape is good.

There have been a lot of good explanations floating around about why this is so, but the thing that convinced me is simply that JKR has written 5 whole books in which Snape is a misunderstood good guy, the guy Dumbledore trusts despite everything he has done in the past, the guy who shows more than anyone else what we heard in OotP: that there are more than two classes of people in the world, there are numerous shades of grey. Anyway, after 5 books of JKR teaching us that bad people can be redeemed, she is simply not going to pull the rug out from underneath us and have Snape suddenly turn bad. Remember this is, after all else, a children's book.

Snape is by far the most complex character in the Harry Potter series, and it would be a waste of such beautiful character development for him to turn out evil all along, for all of Harry and Ron's suspicions to be true. If that were the case, I would be highly disappointed in the entire series. Up to this point, I have no reason to believe that JKR is a bad writer - the type who would throw something at you (like Snape being evil) just for shock value. And there really is no other explanation for it.

This was the first thing I wanted to discuss with someone after I finished the book. Had Bellatrix not been there, would Snape have found a way to avoid making the unbreakable vow with Narcissa? Had Snape and Draco been the only DE's on the tower, would Snape have still killed? My thought was that this is the reason Snape was so furious when Harry called him a coward - that it hit a sore spot because it was true. No matter if Snape tells himself "I'll die if I don't keep the vow, and someone else will kill him, so he'll be dead anyway, and I'm no good to anyone dead" etc. etc. etc. If his actions were first and formost an instinct to save himself, he'll feel like a coward.

I haven't decided if I think he's really a loyal DE, or if he's just a coward. Until I read this thread it hadn't occured to me that maybe he did what Dumbledore ordered him to do. I'll have to think on that before I can decide my opinion on it. :shrug:

I think that Snape is still good but had no choice but to kill Dumbledore. He had the unbreakable vow and in order for him to pass on info to the order; info that one day could lead Harry to confont Voldemort he had to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore I think made a sacrifice like many do in all wars.

True, Snape killed Dumbledore, but I have reasons to believe that Dumbledore is not dead... These are my speculations...

1) Snape saved Harry in PS. True, he said he tried to stop Quirrel only because he did not want Quirrel to have the stone, but why did he bother to save Harry during the match? He will not have gained any more trust from Dumbledore and he hates James and Sirius to the core (we can see from HBP), so why would he bother to save Harry, just let him die, Dumbledore can't fault him, can he?

2) In OotP, Snape was the first person in the Order to know that Harry had ran off to the MoM. He did not have to inform the Order because Harry would have been dead (together with the other 5), Voldermort made it a point to visit MoM because he wants to hear the propency asap and then killed Harry. If Snape had not inform the Order, I am pretty sure, the story can be ended. Yet, he did inform, when nobody knows that Harry had told Snape about Sirius being trapped in MoM. Thus, he only win a bit more trust from Dumbledore by reporting (and he did not need the additional trust).

3) In HBP, Snape was asked to make the unbreakable vow which is unbreakable. If he refused, he would have raise suspicion from the two sisters and thus, making himself useless. Thus, Dumbledore no doubt knew he will have to die and Snape had to kill him.

4) Dumbledore, IMHO, for reasons I don't know how, is faking death. A phoniex is seen flying off from his tomb and we all know Dumbledore's patronus is a phoniex, could he be sending secret msgs to Snape telling him that their plan had worked.

With Dumbledore presumed dead, Voldermort will no doubt let off his guard because the only person he ever feared is dead. Anyone will let their guard down, even Voldermort. Thus, Dumbledore can operate in secrets and hunt down Voldermort. Not only that, Snape will no doubt win absolute trust from Voldermort, he can get the most secrets mission and passed it to Dumbledore.
And did you all not noticed that Dumbledore actually pleaded with Snape? I don not like to think one of my favourite character will actually plead to save his own life. Dumbledore do not fear death! He may regret that he is mistaken about Snape (if Snape truly betrayed Dumbledore) but I do not honestly think he will plead. It is only an act.

Thus, with the Phoniex and Dumbledore's pleading, I predict that Dumbledore is not quite as dead. Hopefully, that will be true. Not that I liked Snape anyway, I have another set of theory that had long predicted that Snape will betrayed Dumbledore though I hope it would not have happened but still did. Anyway, what you guys think of my theory?

Snape works for himself. It seems he wants total independence from everyone. Maybe they worked out that nifty little plan according to dantares but I don't think Snape is one to be trusted.

maybe DD and Snape switched places somewhere through the novel because he owed it to harry...that would explain DD's strange attitude at the end of the book (for the first time pleading to someone, downplaying harrys intelligence, how he reacted to the potion)

Snape is good!

We see is Dumbledore apparently pleading with Severus for his life, then Snape 'gazing at the professor for a moment' with a 'look of hatred and revulsion' and finally casting the Killing Curse. Later Harry will report this to his friends and members of the Order and it will be seen as a great betrayal (by everyone except Harry, who has 'known' it all along).

But back up a moment: Snape gazes at the Headmaster for a moment. Two accomplished Legilimens do nothing but look at each other for a moment in the midst of a heated battle situation, and we are to assume there is nothing passing between them? Oh, no. I think Dumbledore is asking Snape, via his thoughts, to kill him. Remember that Dumbledore's pain and delirium in the cave have already led him to ask for release by death ('Kill me,' he says to Harry). Now Dumbledore is a bit more rational, but he sees that his own death at Severus' hands can serve a purpose. His pleas are not for his life but for his death.

Snape does it without question or argument, just as he went back to Voldemort at Dumbledore's behest after the Tri-Wizard tournament. Unlike Harry, Snape takes Dumbledore's word as law.

Reinterpreted in light of a request by Dumbledore, Snape's look of 'hatred and revulsion' takes on a new meaning. This is not hatred and revulsion for Dumbledore personally (or what Dumbledore stands for) so much as hatred and revulsion for being asked to do this to Dumbledore, for being asked to add murder to all of the other things he has done. This may explain also Snape's extreme reaction, later, to being called a coward; he has just been asked to kill the man in whom he placed his trust--the man who has protected him for fifteen years, and for whom he has done dangerous things, including spying and now committing murder in order to keep a student safe and uncorrupted by evil--and has complied with the request. Of course being called a coward after all this, and by Potter, would rankle.

So, I think that Snape is still totally good. We just get Harry's POV which is watered down with so much Snape hating.

I think Snape is evil and will never come back to the good side. IMO, he is only after power and doesn't care who he hurts. I can't believe some people still think he is good (I blame Alan Rickman) after he killed Dumbledore and lied for so long. In the mean-time, I will stay sane hoping that someone (hopefully Harry) will get him eventually.

I still hoped that Snape is good and Dumbledore is only faking death. And besides, Harry can now be more independent and will not depend on Dumbledore anymore. Perfect training for him to kill Voldermort as he is "The Chosen One".
The phoniex patronus and DD's pleading are the clues.

I think Snape is evil and will never come back to the good side. IMO, he is only after power and doesn't care who he hurts. I can't believe some people still think he is good (I blame Alan Rickman) after he killed Dumbledore and lied for so long. In the mean-time, I will stay sane hoping that someone (hopefully Harry) will get him eventually.

If your going to blame anyone for making us believe that Snape is good blame JKR :lol:

Its Dumbledore that keeps reiterating that there is good in people give them chances to prove themselves. Its Dumbledore that trusts Snape completely. Didn't JKR say she speaks through DD. I really do want Snape to be a good guy. I hope all of what happened whether DD is dead or if he is faking was part of a plan to make Snape have Voldemorts complete trust so that he can aid Harry in some way in the next book.

If your going to blame anyone for making us believe that Snape is good blame JKR :lol: JKR practically told us that we shouldn't trust Snape or Malfoy as much as we do [on her official site]. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was something like "You guys are too trusting of Snape."

Nope. Dumbledore is dead. Snape killed him. Snape is toast.

Now the question is: why did Snape make that Unbreakable Vow in the first place?
My theory: Snape is protecting his family, or the family he never had.
Follow....

I've been on the Good Ship Severus/Lily, but HBP changes everything. Maybe our Half-Blood Prince was trying to impress Narcissa Black and her family, joined the Death Eaters, and got in way over his head.
Voltemort falls, Snape is shuttled into a low prestige job at Hogwarts, Narcissa marries Lucius Malfoy and has a son -- it's a children's series, so let's say that's the story.

All these years later, Malfoy is in prison, Narcissa turns to Snape for help, and he vows to protect her son.
And sacrifices himself by taking Draco Malfoy's assignment: kill Dumbledore.

How far would you go to protect the ones you love, even from their own foolish acts?
Snape is no saint, but he's no coward, either.
He's now number one with a bullet on every hit list.
And Voltemort is notoriously fickle in how he shows his thanks.
Maybe Wormtail's life with the Weasleys is looking better all the time.

I don't know what to thikn about Snape. When I read chapter 2 I thought it was too obvious and soon to just think Snape was bad by reading that, and when he killed Dumbledore, I for sure thought he was bad. But maybe, Snape just killed Dumbledore because of the Unbreakable Vow. I could see him just killing somone so he wouldn't die. I don't know who's side Snape's on, now that Dumbledore's gone, probably a bit of Voldemort's and a bit of no one's.

Harry will never forgive Snape no matter the circumstances. Snape never cared about the Order; he beraded Sirius is death, accused Tonks of being weak in HBP, he has never once showed any true concern for Harry since Voldemort's return. This you can be assured: Good or bad, Snape will most definetly die by the hands of Harry (hopefully) or Voldemort.

While reading chapter 2, I noted that Snape must be good because he told The Order to go the MoM to help Harry. He knew that Voldemort would obviously have preferred if the order had not shown up. Snape could have easily kept hid mouth shut without revealing that his loyalty lied with Voldemort. So why show such blatant betrayal of his master? It could be that Snape is actually good. Of course, it may also just be that Snape was worried that, If Voldemort heard the whole prophecy, he would be angry at Snape for leading him to give Harry the power to vanquish him.

While reading chapter 2, I noted that Snape must be good because he told The Order to go the MoM to help Harry. He knew that Voldemort would obviously have preferred if the order had not shown up. Snape could have easily kept hid mouth shut without revealing that his loyalty lied with Voldemort. So why show such blatant betrayal of his master?

Well, Snape took quite a while to alert the Order. If the DE had done their job right, they would have had the prophecy long before the Order turned up.

Snapes bad, bad, bad. Alot of people are saying he killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore ordered him to, but really, whats the point? And don't forget, he also stupefied Flitwick, which would have been completely unnessesary had Snape been good. And come on, an Unbreakable Vow saying he'd help Draco kill Dumbledore if need be? That's fairly drastic,

I never considered that Snape could still be good. However at the moment it appears that chances are he is evil.

What do you think .. will he be a part of the final book or was that it!?!?!?!

sadly i think hell be back..

1) The publishing date of the HBP's text book was used to disqualify Harry's dad as possibly being the HBP. Since Snape was at school at the same time doesn't that disqualify him as well? (The publishing date was when Voldemort was at school)

2) At the end when Snape appears the other Death Eaters back way and even the werewolf backs off. All this at the apperance of Snape? Why didn't Bella show this kind of almost fear of Snape?

3) Is Snape a half blood? I was under the impression by the way he cursed at Harry's mom that he hated half bloods. The only one in Slitherin house that was a half blood is Voldemort (because he keeps it a secret).

4) If the HBP really is Snape, why is this the title of the book when Snape is a minor character in HBP? JKR is introducing another major villian? Why would Snape call himself a prince? It doesn't match his loner personality.

So, was it really Snape that killed Dumbledor?

Somethings just aren't adding up...

#1: The book actually belonged to Snape's mother first, before Snape received it

#2: I'm not sure, right now the only thing I can think of is that Snape was the one in their opinion who had to deal with Dumbledore all these years so they let him take care of it.

#3: Yes, Snape is a half-blood. Just like Voldemort, Snape's mother was a witch and his dad was a muggle

#4: You really view Snape as a minor character? He has played a part in all of the books. Snape calls himself a "prince" because that was his mother's surname before she married Snape's father.

As for the last little part...a part of me is holding onto the hope that Dumbledore isn't really dead

1) The publishing date of the HBP's text book was used to disqualify Harry's dad as possibly being the HBP. Since Snape was at school at the same time doesn't that disqualify him as well? (The publishing date was when Voldemort was at school)-the book belonged to Snape's mom, Eileen, which would make it a 50 year old book

2) At the end when Snape appears the other Death Eaters back way and even the werewolf backs off. All this at the apperance of Snape? Why didn't Bella show this kind of almost fear of Snape?-I think they still don't trust Snape
3) Is Snape a half blood? I was under the impression by the way he cursed at Harry's mom that he hated half bloods. The only one in Slitherin house that was a half blood is Voldemort (because he keeps it a secret).-Snape hates half-blods just like Voldemort does, even though both of them are half-bloods, too
4) If the HBP really is Snape, why is this the title of the book when Snape is a minor character in HBP? JKR is introducing another major villian? Why would Snape call himself a prince? It doesn't match his loner personality. - his mother's maiden name was Prince, using it as a title makes him better than Voldemort in a way, because Voldemort was just a Lord. A prince is higher than a lord.
So, was it really Snape that killed Dumbledor?-Yes, Snape killed Dumbledore. The only question is "why"?

1) It was originally owned by Eileen Prince, Snape's mother, who gave it to Snape. So James really could have been the HBP, but Harry never considered that the book was an heirloom.

2) It wasn't fear. It was reverence. He had made an Unbreakable Vow, and was about to kill Dumbledore. They were moving to give him the space to do so.

3) Snape's mother (Eileen Prince) was a witch and his father (Tobias Snape) was a Muggle. So, yes, he was a half-blood. (And there are half-bloods in Slytherin, I'm sure - just not many.)

4) Well, in GoF, the goblet was barely in the book. In OotP, the Order members weren't in the book all the time. But they still played pivotal roles, as did Snape in HBP. He wrote the notes in the Potions book that helped Harry along, made an Unbreakable Vow, and killed Dumbledore. Snape is the Half-Blood Prince, and he was a HUGE character in the story (and will continue to be in Book 7). Snape called himself "Prince" because that was his mother's maiden name, making him the Half-Blood Prince. It's a pun. (And, though Snape had few friends, he wasn't a total loner - it was revealed in Book 3 that Snape hung out with a group of friends who were very big into the Dark Arts.)

And Snape did, indeed, kill Dumbledore. It remains debateable, however, whether he did it because he's evil or because Dumbledore instructed him to.

1. The book belonged to Snape's mother Eileen Prince who went to Hogwarts way before Snape.

2. At the end it was probably when they really knew Snape was a death eater and it was reverance. Bella did not trust Snape in the beginning and was skeptical until he took the unbreakable vow.

3. Snape is a half-blood. His mother is a pure-blood and his father is a muggle so he is a half-blood. He kept it a secret just like Lord Voldermort did as Harry explains in the book.

4. The title had relevance throughout the book with Harry getting hints and all the new spells that he had learned from the half-blood prince. The half-blood character itself is important and only in the end do we learn that is was Snape. Snape was also a pretty important character becasue of Harry's suspicions about him and his role so early in the book. The half blood prince was something of a mystery and there is probably more than meets the eye. Snape called himself the half blood prince because he was a half-blood and his mother's last name was Prince. It was something of a persona like how Tom Riddle became Lord Voldermort. It's all in the book.

5. Yes, Snape did really kill Dumbledore. At least I think so.

1 - Maybe he got it second hand. From those 'special funds' set up for poor students.
2 - Maybe because he is LV's most faithful servant, and his position is higher up than they are with LV.
3 - Like LV, he is ashamed of it.
4 - He's not that minor. And maybe JKR made him minor so we wouldn't figure out the real identity of the HBP. And yes, Snape is a major villain. He killed Dumbledore, the only one more powerful than LV, and he is by far more dangerous than any of the other DEs, because no one thought he would be a threat, and he was always trusted, but he turned out to be the worst.

1) The publishing date of the HBP's text book was used to disqualify Harry's dad as possibly being the HBP. Since Snape was at school at the same time doesn't that disqualify him as well? (The publishing date was when Voldemort was at school)

2) At the end when Snape appears the other Death Eaters back way and even the werewolf backs off. All this at the apperance of Snape? Why didn't Bella show this kind of almost fear of Snape?

3) Is Snape a half blood? I was under the impression by the way he cursed at Harry's mom that he hated half bloods. The only one in Slitherin house that was a half blood is Voldemort (because he keeps it a secret).

4) If the HBP really is Snape, why is this the title of the book when Snape is a minor character in HBP? JKR is introducing another major villian? Why would Snape call himself a prince? It doesn't match his loner personality.

So, was it really Snape that killed Dumbledor?

Somethings just aren't adding up...

The book belonged to Snape's mother; some of the DE knew he'd made the unbreakable vow and others were uncertain of his loyalty so they backed off; Hitler was half-Jewish and look how he viewed anyone who wasn't what he called Aryan (it's some kind of weird psychological thing); Prince was his mother's maiden name and since she was a witch and his dad a Muggle that would make him a half-blood Prince. Just like the book says.

XOXO

1) The publishing date of the HBP's text book was used to disqualify Harry's dad as possibly being the HBP. Since Snape was at school at the same time doesn't that disqualify him as well? (The publishing date was when Voldemort was at school)
Book was probably second hand.
2) At the end when Snape appears the other Death Eaters back way and even the werewolf backs off. All this at the apperance of Snape? Why didn't Bella show this kind of almost fear of Snape?
They back off because they think he's going to cast the AK. Which he does.
3) Is Snape a half blood? I was under the impression by the way he cursed at Harry's mom that he hated half bloods. The only one in Slitherin house that was a half blood is Voldemort (because he keeps it a secret).
He hateds Mudbloods and muggles. Mainly because he is partialy one I think. Voldy is the same.
4) If the HBP really is Snape, why is this the title of the book when Snape is a minor character in HBP? JKR is introducing another major villian? Why would Snape call himself a prince? It doesn't match his loner personality.
I wouldn't call him a minor character. He does kill Dumbledore, after all. And he makes a title for himself. Voldy does the same. And believe me, a Loner personality would have no effect on that.

Indeed!!! Great question!!! WHY did Snape kill Dumbledore?? Mmmm... most likely because of the ubreakable vow?

Well I originally asked this question in the thread concerning Snape's betrayal, but I feel like it concerns a slightly different topic, so I'm starting a thread on it:

In Emerson and Melissa's awesome interview with J.K., Melissa asks J.K. if Snape is evil, and this is J.K.'s answer:

MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil?

JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think?

ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically.

MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim -

JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] -

ES: Yes!

MA: Yes!

ES: Like certain shippers we know!

[All laugh]

JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously – Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.

ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes.

[Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree.

ES: How can someone so -

JKR: Intelligent -

ES: be so blind with regard to certain things?

JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. He’s always the one who gives, he’s always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal. You have a slightly circuitous answer, but I can't get much closer than that.

ES: No, that was a good answer.


Upon reading HBP, I thought that J.K. left surreptitious but clear hints that Snape wasn't really evil and stayed true to Dumbledore, but her answer, while slightly ambiguous, seems to lean toward the fact that Snape really did betray Dumbledore and that Dumbledore was mistaken in trusting Snape. She categorizes people thinking Snape is innocent as a desperate hope, and goes on to say how Dumbledore is too trustworthy, which makes me think that Snape really is a Death Eater.
Do you get this impression?

~DogStarBlack :)

Yeah maybe it was his mother's, or Snape could have gotten it used. He certainly seems to be poor by where he lives, Spinner's End. Maybe he was poorer than the Weasleys in that he didn't even have money to buy new books for lessons.

Also, the title is correct in that Snape is the pivotal character in this book. He betrays and kills DD. All the potions stuff is just a side-line expertly weaved in with the Slughorn/Potions/Felix Felicis/Pensieve memory sub-plot.

Very well done JK!

1. The book belonged to mom first and then he got it.

2. Bella doesn't show the "fear" because (In My Opinion) she feels she is better than Snape. For example before Narcissa and Snape make the vow Bellatrix is questioning Snape and trying to show that she is Voldemort's favorite and not Snape.

3. Snape is a half-blood. His mother was a witch and his father was a muggle, but he tried to keep that secret.

4. He called himself Prince because it was his mothers maiden name and she was the witch not his father so he took her name and used it.

I think he did kill Dumbledore but we don't know everything yet.

Reading the above points, I am seriously impressed with the depth of knowledge in here. However, it was the title of this thread that drew me to it. Something is most definitely NOT adding up, and I'm ticked off that I can't quite put my finger on it. Snape is just not acting 'properly', for want of a better word. He doesn't seem to act properly as a Death Eater, neither does he act properly as a member of the Order. It's almost like he is neither really. Dumbledore trusted him so implicitly, that he must have been 100% certain that Snape was on the level. Did they take the Unbreakable Vow? Did Dumbledore accept that his death was likely to prove necessary? Snape certainly comes across as a true follower of Voldemort by killing Dumbledore, but think for a moment. Nobody else tried to kill him, although they could have. They seemed determined that Malfoy was to do it, so why is it alright for Snape to step in? And then when Harry is chasing him throwing jinxes and curses at him, and all Snape does is deflect them? I mean, OK, he wasn't to be harmed as he has been marked out as 'Voldemort's property', but Snape could easily have stupefied him or something just to stop him chasing them. But he seemed more intent on just getting the Death Eaters away from Hogwarts, only getting angry after Harry called him a coward and then tried to use his own spells against him.

Even back at the start, when the two sisters came to see him there was something just not quite right about what was going on. I don't know. Could be that in the next book he turns out to be just a Death Eater after all, but I get the feeling that things just aren't going to be that simple.

Sorry to have rambled on a bit there.

1) It didn't really, I guess second hand books didn't occur to Harry. James came from a rich family so it's true that it wouldn't make sense for him to get his book second hand.

2) Bella is crazy. Plus they were moving aside so he could do what had to be done.

3) Voldemort does the same thing as Snape.

4) Snape wasn't a minor character! He did something very important, he killed Dumbledoor. He played a bigger role than the Goblet of Fire.

I think all the DEs backed away from Snape because they know that LV holds him in high regard and were expecting him to either kill Dumbledore or break the unbreakable vow.

Lilly was not a half-blood. She was a muggle who had magical abilities just like Hermoine.

Snape not a major character? Snape was a hugely important character in this book. We've been debating since book 1 whether Snape was really on DD's side.

There's a quote just before Snape kills Dumbledore that says he has revulsion and hatred etched in his face. My question is, was he hating himself for having to kill DD, or his hatred and resentmet of DD or even hatred of Voldy for being in that situation.

I can't wait to find out.

1. Snape inherited the book from his mother, Snape created all those spells, and as a nickname took his mothers surname.

2. In Chapter 2 Snape tells Bella "I think he intends for me to do it at the end." Which means they backed away from him because they were waiting toi see what exactly Snape was going to do. Bella and Snape are closer in VM circle than the others. Bella ddn't show fear because she knew what was going to happen.

3. Snape is half blood because at the end we find out that his mother was a witch and his father was a muggle, just like VM who's mother was a witch and his father was a muggle. Snape cursed Lilly because she is muggle born like Hermione not half or pure blood. James is a pure blood making Harry a half-blood. And Yes VM is half blood but I don't think that only pure blood are entered into Slytherin. VM, Snape and probably many other are half bloods. If the house only accepted pure bloods than there wouldn't be many student occupying that house and there wouldn't be enough students to make up a whole house.

4. Snape is not a minor character in the book or series. As stated before he took his mothers surname making him the half blodd Prince in name of his mother. And there probably is more to the story than what we know about Snape.

Snape did kill DD but the questions are, why, is he on the good or bad side, and what exactly was that argument him and DD had before?

I read the interview a little differently, but perhaps because I'm of the mind that Dumbledore used Snape because he was particularly useful and because Snape hated Voldemort with a burning passion that ensured he would work for the Dark Lord's downfall.

Snape can still be a pretty evil guy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

So, what would give DD such a firm assurance that Snape would be trustworthy and to risk, not only the lives of the Order members, but also Harry?

Snape loved Lily Evans and blames Voldemort for her death, just he blames James for taking her away from him.

Hmmmm .... perhaps it's time to run this one through the canons and show how HBP makes this an exceedingly powerful theory. Sure it could be a red herring, but if so, it's a remarkably well prepared one.

This thread or a separate one? I've submitted an article to Mugglenet about this and Dumbledore's astounding statement to Malfoy, but perhaps it would be fun to do this here as well. :)

Yes I think she meant that Dumbledore did make a mistake and Snape is really on Voldy's side.

i kinda got the impression where she said cling to hope that maybe he wasnt evil but i dunno its a very iffy answer she gave!!! what else can we expect

No!

Emerson gave her an escape route when he generalized his question. He said how can someone so intelligent be so blind with regards to certain things?

Suddenly she agreed, after declining to give a response. She agreed to mislead us, in my opinion, because at that point it wouldn't be a lie just she wouldn't be referring to Dumbledore.

she gave an iffy answer so she wouldn't give it away were just going to have to wait to know for sure even though im strongly convinced snape is still good

JKR gave one of those answers that answers nothing - i.e. leaves speculation open and makes us fans overthink it. We don't know. He may be evil, but maybe not. It will be a main plot part or revelation in Book 7.

No!

Emerson gave her an escape route when he generalized his question. He said how can someone so intelligent be so blind with regards to certain things?

Suddenly she agreed, after declining to give a response. She agreed to mislead us, in my opinion, because at that point it wouldn't be a lie just she wouldn't be referring to Dumbledore.


Agreed, the question was a general one. But I do think what she said could be applied to DD but not necessarily to Snape and DD.

She made it clear that Snape's goodness or evilness was a spoiler...why would it be a spoiler unless there's some surprise in the end?

Just because your evil doesn't mean your a DE.
True Snape was a former DE or possibly still a DE, but wouldn't he have his own personal ambitions or treacheries,or any other plan othe than Voldemorts.

What JK said is left to interpretation. Harry-Snape is more personal than Harry-VM. This could mean that harry might have to realize that Snape might not be evil, or that there is more to things than what was seen. Or it can mean that Snape is really evil and as Harry said the worse for him the better for me.
We will have to wait and find out.

I got the impression that she was implying he was evil, but again, she did back out of the question.
I thought her clues in the book, while vague and can be swung a different way if she put a lot of effort into do indicate that Snape isn't evil afterall. I'm afraid she may have put into many clues, actually. Like the argument between DD and Snape where Snape is trying to back out of something...
But that is not this thread.
She also said that she can't go too much into why DD trusted Snape (if Harry had taken two minutes to think about it he would have realized his idea is impossible) because obviously, Harry and Snape are going to meet up again in book seven, and something is said between them. Snape is going to reveal once and for all, why DD trusted him, and if convinced DD, why not Harry?

Trying to be misleading, I'd say...

And I don't think she was referring to DD's trust in Snape when she agreed that Dumbledore was blind in his trust in regard to certain things.

Agreed, the question was a general one. But I do think what she said could be applied to DD but not necessarily to Snape and DD.

She made it clear that Snape's goodness or evilness was a spoiler...why would it be a spoiler unless there's some surprise in the end?

I also agree.Somehow after hthis book i dont put too much trust into what JKr says in her interviews anymore, becasue i think alot of time she will mislead her fans to prevent people from guessing whats going to happen in the next book. She also promised information that would be reaveled in this book, but did not deliver. In this book i was abosultely blown away at how all but a few theories were mostly wrong when there were many good theories that had great evidenct to back them up. The reason as to why dumbledore trusted snape was so dissapointing and rather silly. I was expecting a better explanation than that, and i think Jkr could have put a bit more effort into that story line. Sorry ,ranting a bit here! :p

When I first read the interview I agree I thought all hope was lost that Snape is really bad. But then, the more I look at the clues in the book the more likely I am to go back to my gut instinct, which is Snape is not evil. And I don't think we have gotten the full story as to why Snape is to be trusted. I am most likely to follow the SNape loved Lily thread, but I really hope there is a better theory. Although Dumbledore says that love is very powerful magic. If that is the case, then I love Snape, so he can't be bad :)

It is hardly surprising but I think the Harry-Snape is more a burning than Harry-Voldemort might be a very important clue. Remember the Horcrux; could that be a hint that Snape contains one of Voldemort's Horcrux inside him?

It just underscored that Dumbledore was not infallible. It threw into doubt my unwavering belief that his judgment could be trusted, that while mistakes might occur, they were few and far between. The big hint in the book was Dumbledore's own statement,

"...I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being - forgive me - rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger." (p.197, American Edition)

The fact that he says 'huger', as opposed to, say, "more huge" was hysterical -- after this speech about how smart he is, he uses improper grammar... But there it is. He makes mistakes. At the time, I thought he was just being self-deprecating. Now, after finishing the book and reading the interview transcript, I am pretty sure it was misplaced trust in Snape.

It just underscored that Dumbledore was not infallible. It threw into doubt my unwavering belief that his judgment could be trusted, that while mistakes might occur, they were few and far between. The big hint in the book was Dumbledore's own statement,



The fact that he says 'huger', as opposed to, say, "more huge" was hysterical -- after this speech about how smart he is, he uses improper grammar... But there it is. He makes mistakes. At the time, I thought he was just being self-deprecating. Now, after finishing the book and reading the interview transcript, I am pretty sure it was misplaced trust in Snape.

He was also makeing a bit of a joke. The man did (sob) appreciate humor.

The part of the interview that bothers me the most is her statement that she will love to read all the theories. It is obvioust to me that for the last two years, she has been doing just that. I don't think she has let these forums change the storyline, but I do believe she has let the forums change her writting style, and has spend too much time trying to answer all the questions raised in the forums. This just is not necessary and reduces the quality of her writting style.

On another note, I do take her at her word that books 6 and 7 are really just 1 long book. With that in mind, the big twist that we see at the end of books 1-5 hasn't yet come. Possibly that the whole death thing of Dumbledore was just a set up. If so, we have already been given the magic used to cause this great twist. I don't have my books with me, but I'm going to start trying to remember if we have been introduced to any magic that causes a person to appear to be dead. The use of non-verbal spells certainly plays a big part in book 6.

She thought it was FUNNY that people were hoping Snape wasn't evil? Note the fifth line of the quote from the interview, I think she was on the verge of telling us something, but she HAD to laugh and go offtrack! DARN IT ALL, GET HER BACK ON TRACK! Journalism is a lost art, I'm telling you...

I am so sick of these "Snape Is Good" theories, and it's only been what four days? Snape ish EVIL, and even if he isn't, it isn't like he has a choice now. Wanted for the murder of "the only one he ever feared," and everyone in the wizarding world currently despises and hates Snape. The wizarding world isn't exactly welcoming him back with open arms, the Death Eaters maybe, but..

That interview is not misleading at all.

(this is sarcasm)

That was a clever answer from JKR, she made it very hard to see what she meant and therefore create more discussions

The reason as to why dumbledore trusted snape was so dissapointing and rather silly. I was expecting a better explanation than that, and i think Jkr could have put a bit more effort into that story line. Sorry ,ranting a bit here! :p
Yes, it is disappointing and silly and utterly flimsy. But it's only what Harry has inferred from Dumbledore's memory of the incident. I don't believe it for one minute. Snape is evil, but Dumbledore has a cast iron reason for trusting him and it's not ... Gee, Dumbledore, I feel so bad about James and Lily.

I think the clue is on Page 27, Spinner's End.

"Yes, Bellatrix, I stayed," said Snape, betraying a hint of impatience for the first time. "I had a comfortable job that I preferred to a stint in Azkaban. They were rounding up the Death Eaters, you know. Dumbledore's protection kept me out of jail; it was most convenient and I used it."

So there was Snape's motivation for switching over to Dumbledore's side.

The next question is what could he offer Dumbledore in return, besides information against LV which had limited value considering he was now Vapormort and presumably hiding in Albania possessing squirrels and snakes. What he had to offer had to have long term and "unbreakable" value. And that's the clue. Snape gave Dumbledore an unbreakable vow to protect Harry no matter what.

We'll see in two years.

If so, we have already been given the magic used to cause this great twist. I don't have my books with me, but I'm going to start trying to remember if we have been introduced to any magic that causes a person to appear to be dead. The use of non-verbal spells certainly plays a big part in book 6.You just sprung a leaky idea in my little brain, Fred and George. If you want to look for anything that might make people believe you have a nose bleed or a faiting fit or perhaps even fake your own death then maybe Fred and George have something like that. Fred did say the ministry was buying some of there products and you know what I bet Dumbledore would have taken a little peak into there shop, I mean it is right up his street.

It just underscored that Dumbledore was not infallible. It threw into doubt my unwavering belief that his judgment could be trusted, that while mistakes might occur, they were few and far between. For me, the seed of doubt about Dumbledore's infalliability was planted at the end of OotP. So throughout HBP, from the Unbreakable Vow on, I was open to the possibility that Dumbledore was wrong. My instincts were that Snape was a true DE and that the pleading was "please don't make me wrong about you". I was wavering after reading the boards.

Reading JKR's comments, I am going to trust my instincts. Snape is evil and the hate between he and Harry is deep and unbreakable. I also felt certain that Snape was more personal. While Voldemort is his destiny, Harry holds Snape directly responsible for the deaths of 4 people dear to him. Based on hate alone, he would take out Snape first - I have no doubt about that. JKR confirmed that for me, as well.

can someone please post a link to the intterview? I can't find it anywhere!

I don't think she expected to get that kind of question because she thought it was obvious
but thats probably just me cause i always thought snape and evil character

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml

ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes.

[Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree.
JKR plainly says that Dumbledore can be reckless in trusting people. If she is not talking about jis recklessness in trusting Snape, who else could she be talking about?

Snape's true allegiance is one of the things I was really hoping would be discussed in the interview, because I'm in two minds about it. The interview hasn't really helped, except insofar as we know that this is an important issue and it will be dealt with and resolved in book 7. I'm glad of that; I always wanted to see more about Snape. I like his ambiguity, and the way he highlights the fact that not everyone is black and white: he's (assumed to be) on the good side, but he's not a nice person.

The interview answers just preserve his ambiguity, I think: JK could hardly give away anything that important, it would spoil book 7 for us. Her reinforcement of the idea from books 5 and 6 that Dumbledore is not infallible does make me wonder if, given that Dumbledore knows he makes mistakes, he knew he was mistaken to trust Snape. If so, why did he not act on his suspicions?

Her reinforcement of the idea from books 5 and 6 that Dumbledore is not infallible does make me wonder if, given that Dumbledore knows he makes mistakes, he knew he was mistaken to trust Snape. If so, why did he not act on his suspicions?
Maybe he did. Maybe that is what their big arguement was about.

The part of the interview that bothers me the most is her statement that she will love to read all the theories. It is obvioust to me that for the last two years, she has been doing just that. I don't think she has let these forums change the storyline, but I do believe she has let the forums change her writting style, and has spend too much time trying to answer all the questions raised in the forums. This just is not necessary and reduces the quality of her writting style.

Thank you! I felt the same way at several points- like she was trying to cover a list of FAQ topics.

It is weird to think she reads the forums. When Luna commentates on the Quidditch, I immediately thought of the CoS thread on the topic. I thought it was really funny when morgan le fay posted the idea in 2003, (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=651404&postcount=14) that it could be Luna, and while it was still funny to read it coming from Jo, it makes me wonder. . .

But to try and stay on topic here, I am glad she enjoys our theorizing. It's got to be a little pay off to her to see it. Can't you tell from her answer about Snape how much she enjoys our twisting in the wind?

He's evil. No matter where his "loyatly" lies or if Dumbledore was right to trust him. I think her answer shows that Snape is anti-Harry, and that's evil enough.

I got the strong impression, while reading the book and hearing her answer, that Snape really is on Voldy's side.

What he had to offer had to have long term and "unbreakable" value. And that's the clue. Snape gave Dumbledore an unbreakable vow to protect Harry no matter what.
I like this idea, it would take something along those lines to cause Dumbly to trust Snape. But I don't believe he ever suspected that Snape would actually betray and kill him, which is what JKR might be alluding to.

As for Snape being evil, I'd say his actions warrant a definite YES. :evil:



I got the strong impression, while reading the book and hearing her answer, that Snape really is on Voldy's side.
Actually I don't think Snape is on Voldy's side. I wouldn't be surprised if Snape tries to take down Voldy in Book 7, or at least manipulate Harry into doing it for him.

Of course JK was being vague! You can't blame her.

I just posted this in another thread, but I think it is more appropriate here. JK has said before that she speaks through Hermione, and at the end of HBP, Hr was still hesitant to call Snape 'evil'. Does that mean anything more? Or is it just a way of saying "this guy is bad, and has done bad things, but isn't completely evil, like LV?"

Actually I don't think Snape is on Voldy's side. I wouldn't be surprised if Snape tries to take down Voldy in Book 7, or at least manipulate Harry into doing it for him.

I've wondered before if Snape was a fence-sitter. A famous Slytherin quality is personal ambition and self-preservation, isn't it? Snape would uphold this perfectly by being a double-agent, spying for both sides until he can work out which is going to win. Power for himself is obtained by being a trusted advisor of two powerful adversaries; if one gets killed, he will take the blame / kudos and thus still be a powerful advisor in the winner's camp, with attendant power for himself. Do you think he'd go further, and take down the winning side as well? I don't know how far he'd be willing, or able, to go, but that's a very interesting idea.

Let me say that I think there is a difference between being evil and betraying Dumbledore. I definatly believe that Snape is evil, but I don't think he betrayed Dumbledore. There is something more to it as the Dumbledore's death scene is quite "filmsy" as some have said.

I think JKR's answer is a the typical non-answer she gives when truly answering it will give away the plot. I think we can infer from her comment that Snape is indeed evil, but whether he betrayed Dumbledore, she won't say.

I think Latiem has a good point when she said evil doesn't mean you're a DE. I too have made the mistake of categorizing Snape as either good or bad; good meaning side with Harry Potter and the Order and bad meaning the Death Eaters and Voldemort.

I have to keep reminding myself there is more than just good and bad. Snape might ultimately wind up doing good but his methods in getting there might not be. I still think there was some sort of agreement between Dumbledore and himself with DD using Snape's strengths as a means of fulfilling this agreement.

This is how I interpreted the interview as. That Snape might be evil but that doesn't necessarily mean Voldemort, kill Harry Potter, etc.

I'm just confused. Like at the end Snape yells "No! Leave Potter for the Dark Lord!" (after a DE performed the Cruciatus Curse On Harry) This could be translated two different ways.
If Snape is good, he said this because he didn't want Harry to be harmed.
If Snape is bad and a DE then he said this because he literally meant that Harry was to be left for LV.

At least JKR says that it will all be explained in book 7! That is very exciting to me!

she is playing mind tricks... i hope :)

Snape might ultimately wind up doing good but his methods in getting there might not be.
Very astute.

I honestly dont know what to think JK could be telling us several things. But I for some reason believe Snape will die in the next book and it will be because he does something to help Harry. But at the same time I hate he killed DD. i Guess we have to wait for book 7 to truly know though. I do think things between them will be quite interesting. Snape just confuses me so much in this book. So many questions as to what his true intentions are.

Wow and unbreakable vow to protect Harry could definalty be a possibility. I think thats one of the best Snape theorys i have read. I wonder if thats why Snape would not touch Harry in the end and continued to "teach" him.

I am sorry, but nobody thinks that Snape is a particularly nice character. JK didn't say he was neither evil nor good, she didn't answer it categorically because it can't be answered categorically. Things in these stories (as she has tried to point out several times) are not black and white. Severus Snape is no exception. He may be dark, rude, arrogant, and at times down right awful, but that doesn't mean he is absolutely evil. He has proven himself to be the opposite of that several times around, and I think we will be proven that once more in book 7. The world just isn't split into good and evil. I think that is what JKR was saying.

I read the interview a little differently, but perhaps because I'm of the mind that Dumbledore used Snape because he was particularly useful and because Snape hated Voldemort with a burning passion that ensured he would work for the Dark Lord's downfall.

Snape can still be a pretty evil guy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

So, what would give DD such a firm assurance that Snape would be trustworthy and to risk, not only the lives of the Order members, but also Harry?

Snape loved Lily Evans and blames Voldemort for her death, just he blames James for taking her away from him.

Hmmmm .... perhaps it's time to run this one through the canons and show how HBP makes this an exceedingly powerful theory. Sure it could be a red herring, but if so, it's a remarkably well prepared one.

This thread or a separate one? I've submitted an article to Mugglenet about this and Dumbledore's astounding statement to Malfoy, but perhaps it would be fun to do this here as well. :)

Where do you get this stuff about Snape loving Harry's mom? I don't remember that...but now that you say it it makes perfect sense.
And about Dumbledore...I think his death must have been planned, and though Snape is somewhat evil, dd must have a good reason to trust snape.

I think we established three things with this comment
1) Snape is evil
2) Dumbledore was too smart for his own good
3) Jo loves to read wild theories

Hence- Snape really did pull the wool over Dd eyes and Harry was right about him after all, but keep specualating all you want because JKR loves it!

Well, it seemed to me she was more amused about SS being "good" for fanfic ship reasons...

SS is SS really, with his own traits. I mean he demonstrates compassion in the 2nd chapter. He does not have to take Cissy up on her offer, he could have easily taken Bel's point of view and refused to interfere, and be perfectly justified in doing so as a follower of VM.

The fact that he was ultimately able to kill DD (whether on DD's orders or not) shows that he has issues, but I think trying to classify him as either "good" or "evil" simplifies the issue too much.

After the book and the interview I have no doubt that DD misplaced his trust in Snape. If you look at the christmas scene in the book you will see that the other order members trusted Snape because DD did. I wonder what it was Snape said to DD when he was first hired. If certanly cleared the topic off the table, since it has never been discussed since.

My two cents for what they are worth: Just because you are on the "good" side doesn't mean you are a good person. And JK loves to make us crazy so we will find out that Snape didn't really betray DD but is not actually a good person. That way she hasn't misled us on anything and will have made us crazy for the next two years while waiting on 7 : )

Doesn't anyone other than me think Dumbledore was dying the minute he drank the potion?

If Dumbledore was already dying what was the harm of Snape finishing him off, infront of the Death Eaters, and cementing his position with them and ultimately getting closer to Voldemort.

I think from what Snape says during his flight, shows that he is still going to do the right thing. He had ample opportunities to kill / kidnap Harry, yet he didn't.

One thing I don't understand is; Why did the Death Eaters attack Hogwarts? It wasn't to kill Dumbledore, all of the Death Eaters are afraid of him, and it wasn't to kidnap Harry.

I have to agree with the "he's evil, but that doesn't mean he likes Voldemort" theory.

In Snape's recollections of Lilly, I think it's entirely possible that Snape did like/love her, and hated Harry's father for marrying her. If that's the case, Snape would be pretty darn mad at Voldemort for killing her. And he'd be pretty mad at Harry too. I mean, he's the physical manifestation of Lily and James being together, right? What kind of other reminder would he need that would make him REALLY mad about that?

We've already seen that he holds a grudge a loooong time (against James and Sirius), he could certainly be holding the same grudge against Voldemort.

Furthermore, if that's the case, he could have been playing along with the Order and the DEs this whole time, not to help either one of them, but to further his own personal goal of getting rid of Voldemort, by any means possible.

....that argument between Snape and DD still bugs me though.....

JKR practically told us that we shouldn't trust Snape or Malfoy as much as we do [on her official site]. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was something like "You guys are too trusting of Snape."
Maybe she meant we shouldn't trust Snape to not do evil in order to achieve good. But that doesn't mean we can't trust him to do what he thinks is best for the common good, Dumbledore, or Harry. Dumbledore would feel horrific if Snape had to die for him, only for Dumbledore to die soon after from poisoning (for all we know, Snape may have skills that far surpass Slughorn's (anyone else keep calling him Slugworth since Charlie... came out the same weekend?)) or if Draco had to become a murderer, I get the sense that he loves his children too much to let them sacrifice more than necessary; and Snape recognizes and respects that.

Will Snape be able to convince Harry and the Order that he's on their side, with no help from Dumbledore? If not, how will he be able to sabotage LV from within?

I think Snape is on his own side. I believe he killed Dumbledore to prevent himself from being killed. Snape made the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa, he vowed to help Draco fulfill whatever order he was given by the "Dark Lord" and if Draco would fail, then Snape had to carry out the deed the Dark Lord had given Draco to perform. We learned from Ron that there is no way to break an unbreakable vow, if you break the vow you die. Snape did seem hesitant to make that promise , but he did. I think since Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore, he did since he made the unbreakable vow and didn't want to die himself.


I think I agree with you. Snape has no side. But if he does, its definately NOT the Order.

Reasons why:
-Snape has never, EVER EVER been kind to Harry. Granted, he hated his parents, but he never let Harry get a word in edge-wise. While he saved Harry in the first book, he did so because he didn't want a "less talented" and bumbling wizard to kill him.
- AK is no fooling around. You cannot pretend a curse like that.
- DD himself said that he DOES MAKE MISTAKES, and because of his cleverness and influences, his mistakes tend to be huge.
- By killing DD, no matter what, Snape will never be forgiven, even if he had a good reason. Why would Snape seperate himself like that? Does he really care about the cause that much? He would sacrifice his life (the Unbreakable Vow) in order to fight the good fight?
-The fight between Snape and DD that Hagrid saw. The relation between the two of them was already faltering.
-And what Snape himself said: Dumbledore's greatest weakness is his need to ALWAYS BELIEVE THE BEST OF PEOPLE. Its true - DD does. And Snape was able to manipulate that.
-Lastly, while DD is a great Legilimens (i butchered that word, I am sorry), Snape is an accomplished Occlumens. Which means that even Dumbledore can't sense his thoughts.

Sorry Snape-believers, I don't agree.


However, as we have learned, nothing is as it seems.

I have to agree with those who have said that Snape is evil. I mean, he performed Avadra Kedrava -- we know that you have to really mean those curses for them to work.

Snape was always the bad guy he just never showed it. We finally know the side he's on in Spinner's End in HBP but we've never known for sure. Now that he's made an unbreakable vow we know he can't back out of the Draco plan and after that do you think he'd want to go back to the OotP? Probably not. Plus he's just killed Dumbledore the members of the order aren't going to welcome him back with open arms after that.
So getting to my point he's a death eater never left them and will always be with them.

I think DD intended Snape to kill him. I'm not saying Snape is good, because he's a nasty, awful person. But I think DD wanted to do everything possible to save Draco from crossing the line to evil. DD could have stopped Draco before Snape even got there. I refuse to believe that DD couldn't do wandless magic even in his weakened state. He needed Draco to choose not to kill him. He knew that once Draco made his choice, Snape would have to kill him because of the unbreakable vow. It had to be Snape, because if any other Death Eater killed DD, Draco would still be killed for his failure. Snape killed DD so that now Snape can escape with Draco and protect him from the other Death Eaters.

I think the Order won't forgive Snape (at least not until Snape proves himself in some grand gesture in Book 7). Snape will spend most of Book 7 hiding Draco from both the Order and the death eaters. My basic point is, DD would want to protect all the students in his school, no matter what the cost. Draco was more important to DD than his own life, and Snape knew it.

To Laika's comment, to perform Avada Kedavra you just have to mean you want the other person dead (which takes a great deal of conviction). You don't have to hate the other person.

I believe that Snape is evil. For one thing, it's been said more than once and is an important idea in these books that you can't use an unforgivable curse unless you mean it. Also, when Snape killed DD it said "there was hatred and revulsion etched in the harsh lines of his face." Not reluctance, not remorse, but hatred, the darkest emotion there is. I find it hard to believe that he would have that much hatred because he just didn't want to do it.

Furthermore, I think DD was wrong on this one, especially since that is a general theme at that point in the book, the Horcrux they go through so much for turns out to be fake, Malfoy manages to lead the Death Eaters into the castle without DD knowing anything about it, (And he didn't know anything, or he would never allowed it to happen, since it would be far to much of a risk that some of the students might be killed to be worth simply allowing Snape to get a little closer to Voldemort.), and finally he was wrong about Snape. This demonstrates that Dumbledore is not powerful enough to defeat Voldemort and his DEs, meaning that Harry is truly the only one who can stop him.

It's also significant because if you only trusted those who you knew absolutely would never turn on you, and only forgave those who you knew would never do anything wrong again, it wouldn't be nearly as noble to trust or forgive someone. By trusting Snape, Dumbledore was showing compassion, which is the only real weapon against Voldemort, so that even though he died because of it, it was the right thing to do.

Quoting Pharazon:This "Good Guy Snape" Theory is driving me mad. He killed Dumbledore, and it doesn't matter if he wants to be good, Harry is going to kill him somewhere in Book 7. I just really don't know how people can think Snape's still good, he killed Dumbledore. The remaining members of the Order are going to despise him and "jinx him into oblivion" (Tonks, OotP :P) if he ever comes near. Obviously, they were unaware of Dumbledore/Snape's pact if there was one, and no one will believe Snape now. He's probably most wanted by the MoM only behind Voldemort himself, because he killed such an icon of the strength/perseverence in the wizarding world. I don't care if Snape was under 17 different Imperius Curses, 383 Unbreakable Vows, and all of them were forcing him to kill Dumbledore. I don't care if it wasn't Snape at all, but someone drinking the Polyjuice Potion as Snape. I want Snape dead, and I wouldn't mind it being the first page of Book 7, in fact that'd be great. :)

I agree Snape needs to die.

Snape is good.

There have been a lot of good explanations floating around about why this is so, but the thing that convinced me is simply that JKR has written 5 whole books in which Snape is a misunderstood good guy, the guy Dumbledore trusts despite everything he has done in the past, the guy who shows more than anyone else what we heard in OotP: that there are more than two classes of people in the world, there are numerous shades of grey. Anyway, after 5 books of JKR teaching us that bad people can be redeemed, she is simply not going to pull the rug out from underneath us and have Snape suddenly turn bad. Remember this is, after all else, a children's book.

Snape is by far the most complex character in the Harry Potter series, and it would be a waste of such beautiful character development for him to turn out evil all along, for all of Harry and Ron's suspicions to be true. If that were the case, I would be highly disappointed in the entire series. Up to this point, I have no reason to believe that JKR is a bad writer - the type who would throw something at you (like Snape being evil) just for shock value. And there really is no other explanation for it.

word. exactly my thought.

I think Snape, like all of us, has the power to be either good or evil. I think in the world of magic as our Muggle world the power to love and be loved determines our overall fate. I think Snape still struggles with feelings of not being accepted as demonstrated when he became angry and yelled at Harry and told him to not call Snape a coward.

Snape killed Dumbledore because he had to do it. I think the hatred and revulsion in his face was because he was forced to do something he didn't necessarily want to do but had to. Dumbledore wasn't pleading with Snape to spare his life; he was pleading with him to do what needed to be done. This had to happen to set in motion the ultimate facedown between Harry and Voldermort. I think the thing most people forget is the easiest to remember in the long run; it's just incredibly difficult to always believe most times. Love--pure, true, selfless love does conquer all. That has been a consistent theme is the greatest books ever written.

I have more theories about Dumbledore role in Book 7 and he does have a role. But I'll post those elsewhere.

Originally Posted by eatcacti
Snape is good.

There have been a lot of good explanations floating around about why this is so, but the thing that convinced me is simply that JKR has written 5 whole books in which Snape is a misunderstood good guy, the guy Dumbledore trusts despite everything he has done in the past, the guy who shows more than anyone else what we heard in OotP: that there are more than two classes of people in the world, there are numerous shades of grey. Anyway, after 5 books of JKR teaching us that bad people can be redeemed, she is simply not going to pull the rug out from underneath us and have Snape suddenly turn bad. Remember this is, after all else, a children's book.

Snape is by far the most complex character in the Harry Potter series, and it would be a waste of such beautiful character development for him to turn out evil all along, for all of Harry and Ron's suspicions to be true. If that were the case, I would be highly disappointed in the entire series. Up to this point, I have no reason to believe that JKR is a bad writer - the type who would throw something at you (like Snape being evil) just for shock value. And there really is no other explanation for it.Plus: this was the sixth book, this was the book before the last. The last two books are almost one novel JK said. Does anyone really think book 7 won´t have another plot twist?
I always thought that in book 6 Snape will either mess up something or we will learn something horrible he had done in the past so that people would have negative feelings towards him and he can be fully redeemed in the last book. I was only a little bit wrong. In fact Snape didn´t mess up at all and proved himself to be ultimately heroic but in such a disguised way that Harry and to my suprise a lot of readers think that he is evil.
And now JKR is laughing at the question if Snape is evil and says it would be a spoiler for book 7. - ! Come on everybody, of course he is good.
IF Snape was ever intended to be evil we would have learned that in the last book.

I think from what Snape says during his flight, shows that he is still going to do the right thing. He had ample opportunities to kill / kidnap Harry, yet he didn't.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Snape will ultimately try to take over Voldy's spot as chief evil wizard dude. The reason he hasn't killed Harry is because he needs him to take out Voldy for him. After all, Snape is aware of what the Prophesy says (or at least the bit he heard).

Yes, he is such a good person that he killed Dumbledore...what a guy!

J/k sorry about that. But I doubt it, unless these crazy legilimancy theories are true.

If he is, I don't think McGonagall and many others will be too keen on letting him back in the OOTP.

Yes, he is such a good person that he killed Dumbledore...what a guy!

J/k sorry about that. But I doubt it, unless these crazy legilimancy theories are true.

If he is, I don't think McGonagall and many others will be too keen on letting him back in the OOTP.Yes he is such a guy who killed Dumbledore to save Draco Malfoy and above all for the greater good although he visibly hated it and is now a wanted man.
Leglimency is not necessary at all, Dumbledore and Snape had a plan all along. If Snape was evil, I want to ask you: What was the argument in the forest about and why was it included in the book?

The plan is not for Snape to get back in the order or McGonagall would have been told about it. The plan is that Snape joins the DEs officially and helps to destroy Voldemort from within, as Voldemorts most trusted advisor.
Sounds a little bit more helpful then another soldier in the order, doesn´t it?

I will not go into long, raving pendantic paragraphs as to why I think Snape is innocent. I'm just going to give you what I read, analyzed, and believed. Love it or hate it, agree or disagree, it's just my thoughts.



1. We never heard the real reason as to why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Stop arguing, no, you did NOT read it. What you read was what Harry believed to be the reason, due to what Trewlany told him about Snape hearing the prophecy, spilling the beans to his Royal Evilness, and then crying to Albus and apologizing for it. But Dumbledore never said this. We may not ever know the true reason, but THAT is definitely not it. Dumbledore knows (or knew) that Snape "loathed James." And, knowing that Severus was a highly accomplished Occlumens, he could easily hide the truth from him. No, Dumbledore is not that stupid. He may have a weakness for love, but I think he has a stronger hatred for those who oppose it, and he would have seen through any lie Snape fed him.

2. Hagrid tells Harry that he hears Snape arguing with Dumbledore. Since when does Snape raise his voice against Albus? Since when does Snape not follow his orders? That being the case, what was Dumbledore asking him to do? Did he ask him to kill him for a certain reason? Did he tell Snape that he must kill him to protect an evil, but otherwise scared and innocent, Draco Malfoy? Dumbledore would die for the lives of his students to be spared. Noble, indeed. Or was it some other plan. some other "thing" (I'm not speculating on THIS thought any further. We'll know when we know.)

3.If Snape was truly against them the whole time, why did he bother to tell Dumbledore that Harry went to the ministry in OoTP? As he did not hear the whole prophecy, he has no clue (and neither does Voldemort) that Harry cannot be killed by another but V. if the Dark Lord has any chance of succeeding. So why not keep his hands clean and just let Lucius and his boys finish him off?

4. When Harry his casting spells at Snape whilst he chases him down across the grounds of Hogwarts, Snape only blocks them; he doesn't attack. Why not? Why would a powerful "dark wizard" like Snape not attack Harry and kill him? Lord knows he is more powerful than Harry at the time. And as he never heard the whole prophecy, he should more than jump at the chance to kill the "boy who lived" and land himself the spot of Voldemort's most favored servant. It just doesn't fit.

5."Stupe-"

"Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

Now, why would Snape, a smart, conniving, slick wizard tell Harry this? Why reveal to him his weakness? ESPECIALLY when you are not killing him, and stop another Death Eater from whacking him directly after the fact? Sure, this sounds like a James Bond movie. Let's tell the hero what he's doing wrong, and eventually he overcomes the problems and kicks the bad guy's butt. Snape is most DEFINITELY not that stupid. Sounds like he's warning Potter to me.

6. I don't know if it was just me, but Dumbledore didn't think, act, or talk like himself when Harry turned up in his office, right before they went to The Cave. Could it not be Dumbledore, or could Dumbledore be scared and tense because he knows (as he planned) that his own death is coming? We will not know until Jo gives us the last book.

7. When Harry and Albus first return to the school, Dumbles tells Harry to go fetch Snape. Why? Shouldn't he mean Professor Slughorn, who, if I am not mistaken,is the Potions master of the school now? If Dumbledore was poisoned, wouldn't he want the man who had antidotes on hand exactly at that moment? Or did he know Draco was coming to kill him, and since Snape told him (again, this is just my theory) everything about the Unbreakable Vow he made with Narcissa, that Albus sent Harry to fetch Snape so he could kill him. That's right; I think the argument between Snape and Dumbledore did INDEED have to do with that. Dumbledore, to protect a student forced against his will to kill out of fear for his parents' and his own live, ordered Snape to kill him to save both Malfoy's life AND Snape's, thus letting Snape continue to try and bring Voldemort down. And Snape argued against it whole-heartedly. But to me, I think it is just the kind of thing Dumbledore would do.

I have many more theories, but I will post them at a later date. I am currently re-reading HBP for the 5th time.

Also, 1 more question: When we first meet Slughorn, he has turned himself into a chair. What kind of magic he used is never divulged. Was it some form of Human Transfiguration? Is he a Metamorphmagus? Or is this some new form of magic Jo has yet to inform us on?

Anyone agree or disagree with my thoughts?

I will not go into long, raving pendantic paragraphs as to why I think Snape is innocent. I'm just going to give you what I read, analyzed, and believed. Love it or hate it, agree or disagree, it's just my thoughts.


Anyone agree or disagree with my thoughts?

Ah you have some interesting theories.
I'm glad you mentioned the part where Hagrid tells Harry that he heard Snape arguing with Dumbledore. I'd forgotten that. And Rowling usually plants small lines like that previously--where it could be thought they're having a malicious argument, or could indeed be fighting because Snape won't take Dumbledore's orders.

I still think it is actually Dumbledore who went to the cave and was killed.

Also, I think Slughorn transfigured into that armchair.

Okay I am not sure whether Snape is good or not...I keep thinking he is just plain evil...but here are a few things I found paralleling Snape to Sirius and Snape to Voldemort...:

I find that at the end of HBP we are very much in the same position that we were with Sirius in PoA - the guilty man on the run...but is he really guilty or was he acting in the best interest of others?? The parallels I find are:

1. Bellatrix's treatment of Snape - she basically accuses him of the same things Snape accused Sirius of...staying safe while others risked their life...

2. Snape made the unbreakable vow to protect Draco...Sirius made a vow to be Harry's godfather...

3. Snape is accused of killing a good guy DD...Sirius was accused of passing LV information that caused the Potter's death and killing Peter "the good guy" people thought

At the same time I find a lot of parallels with Lord Voldemort:
1. both half-bloods who's mothers were pureblood and married muggles

2. both mother's were "hurt" in some way by the muggle men they married

3. both turned their powers even before they stated school toward the dark arts

4. both appear to be very powerful, and invented spells

5. both gave themselves nicknames or aliases that implied royalty

6. both are friendless

7. both don't have anyone to care about and they can't seem to show love or compassion (even in the scene w/ Cissy we see Snape not show emotion)

8. both show their cruelty openly - snape enjoys tormenting his students and holding the power over them...similarly LV like to torture his followers and hold his power over even his closest DE's

9. both have shown they can use people and get what they wanted

10. both are accomplished Occlumens/Leglimens

So where does that leave Snape?? Good or Evil?? Sirius's parallel or Voldemorts?? My thought especially after reading JKR's comment to the Mugglenet report is that he is evil and has always been on the side of LV or possible on "his own side" willing to sit and be DD's good boy if it kept him out of Azkaban but willing to go back to LV because he can offer him "power".

Though question... I think we will be wondering about it for the two next years or so...

I just can't imagine that we heard the real reason why dumbledore trusted Snape. I think Snape acted on dumbledore's orders. But it will be hard for him to redeem himself of that one... He most certainly will have to die for that!

by the way, does Snape know about the horcruxes?... i bet he does and that's why he had to remain at V's service, because he is the only who can get from him the places where they are hidden.

We may not ever know the true reason, but THAT is definitely not it. Dumbledore knows (or knew) that Snape "loathed James." And, knowing that Severus was a highly accomplished Occlumens, he could easily hide the truth from him. No, Dumbledore is not that stupid. He may have a weakness for love, but I think he has a stronger hatred for those who oppose it, and he would have seen through any lie Snape fed him.
I'm not sure either way, but wouldnt his "weakness for love" blind him to Snape's decption. Personally i dont think it was a weakness for love, but a need to give second chances, the same way he did for young Tom Riddle. That has the potential to blind him to snapes deception.

2. Hagrid tells Harry that he hears Snape arguing with Dumbledore. Since when does Snape raise his voice against Albus? Since when does Snape not follow his orders? That being the case, what was Dumbledore asking him to do? Did he ask him to kill him for a certain reason? Did he tell Snape that he must kill him to protect an evil, but otherwise scared and innocent, Draco Malfoy? Dumbledore would die for the lives of his students to be spared. Noble, indeed. Or was it some other plan. some other "thing" (I'm not speculating on THIS thought any further. We'll know when we know.)
Very Compelling evidence and analyisis

3.If Snape was truly against them the whole time, why did he bother to tell Dumbledore that Harry went to the ministry in OoTP? As he did not hear the whole prophecy, he has no clue (and neither does Voldemort) that Harry cannot be killed by another but V. if the Dark Lord has any chance of succeeding. So why not keep his hands clean and just let Lucius and his boys finish him off?Isn't it possible that at this momment he hasnt quite declared which side he officially supports. If he doesnt help harry at the minstry by informing the order of HP's actions, he's as good as declared himself. If snape is playing both sides to see who comes out on top, it would be prudent to not let one side's hero die.

4. When Harry his casting spells at Snape whilst he chases him down across the grounds of Hogwarts, Snape only blocks them; he doesn't attack. Why not? Why would a powerful "dark wizard" like Snape not attack Harry and kill him? Lord knows he is more powerful than Harry at the time. And as he never heard the whole prophecy, he should more than jump at the chance to kill the "boy who lived" and land himself the spot of Voldemort's most favored servant. It just doesn't fit.He needs to follow Voldemort's orders in front of the Death Eaters. That's reason enough...

5."Stupe-"

"Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

Now, why would Snape, a smart, conniving, slick wizard tell Harry this? Why reveal to him his weakness? ESPECIALLY when you are not killing him, and stop another Death Eater from whacking him directly after the fact? Sure, this sounds like a James Bond movie. Let's tell the hero what he's doing wrong, and eventually he overcomes the problems and kicks the bad guy's butt. Snape is most DEFINITELY not that stupid. Sounds like he's warning Potter to me. Because Snape is a smug guy and he likes to see the weaknesses in other people and point them out, especially harry. His hate trandscends Evil Genius prudence, just like in the Bond Flicks.:p

7. When Harry and Albus first return to the school, Dumbles tells Harry to go fetch Snape. Why? Shouldn't he mean Professor Slughorn, who, if I am not mistaken,is the Potions master of the school now? If Dumbledore was poisoned, wouldn't he want the man who had antidotes on hand exactly at that moment? I think potions master is more of a classification of the skill you have, not a Hogwarts title. Slughorn might not nessaccarily be a potions master then, but we know for certain that Snape is. Snape is also brillant at the Dark Arts and potions and on top of that, DD clearly trusts him. That's reason enough to call him isnt it?

Also, 1 more question: When we first meet Slughorn, he has turned himself into a chair. What kind of magic he used is never divulged. Was it some form of Human Transfiguration? Is he a Metamorphmagus? Or is this some new form of magic Jo has yet to inform us on?
It's just plain old Human Transfiguration. Hermione mentions it in GoF when krum does it (human to animal), Allegedly it's Highly dangerous. They learn it in Sixth year and the trio did it, remember the eyebrows.

The only compelling evidence i've really heard is the forrest scene, I think that is deffinitely in the Red Herring style, but everything else doesnt really convince me. granted I just breezed through this cause i was bored but...:shrug:

What he had to offer had to have long term and "unbreakable" value. And that's the clue. Snape gave Dumbledore an unbreakable vow to protect Harry no matter what.

What? This makes no sense whatsoever. Dumbledore did a better job than anyone else of protecting Harry. Besides, how can Snape possibly be expected to take care of Harry when he is "pretending" to be a death eater? I think that DD was wrong about Snape, although I do doubt that Snape is completely loyal to Voldemort.

Does anyone else think that his emotional recklessness that JKR talks about can also relate back to OotP and the fact that he shielded Harry from the Prophecy? (as she holds out hope that Snape is good)?

Could be a Mundungus thing. Y'know, how Mundungus is in the Order even though he's a criminal. Dumbledore could know that Snape is somewhat evil and there's a chance he would go back to Voldemort, but maybe that risk is one he's willing to take, because if he IS really on the good side, he's really valuable.

Sounds to me that she's saying Dumbledore's weakness is too trusting and that was his downfall

Very good answer that has raised even more questions for me.

JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously – Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.

Naturally, Harry v. Snape is more personal than Harry v. Voldemort. Voldemort is a sort of super-human entity who's been out to get Harry since Harry was a baby, whereas Harry has known Snape in the capacity of a teacher and Order member. That "betrayal" - or whatever it is, I'm not convinced of Snape's evilness - would be undoubtedly more personal because Harry trusted Snape at the end of OotP for the first time, and Harry knew that Dumbledore trusted Snape.

When I read this interview, I took the comment to mean that Dumbledore, unfortunately, was wrong to trust Snape for so long. I think Dumbledore so wanted to believe Snape had truly changed his ways that he just ignored all evidence to the contrary. He's so wise and such a great leader that sometimes we forget that Dumbledore is human, and he does make mistakes. He said so himself in OOTP.

Plus Snape is an amazing actor, and he always had an answer for everything, which is why he was such a valuable spy for LV. So even though Dumbledore was wrong to be so trusting, it's not entirely his fault, because Snape was always pretty convincing.

If Snape is evil, why in the world would JKR not make that the huge revelation of the book? It's called "The Half-Blood Prince," after all. If Snape is evil, she coul've given us a punch in the stomach twice as bad as the one she did by DEFINITIVELY MAKING SNAPE EVIL. Evil beyond all doubt, strikingly, horrifyingly evil. Wouldn't it have been more powerful that way? Yet the legions of fans defending Snape would not have risen up with this kind of force unless there were words and events in the book that obscured his true alligence. JRK must've employed this ambiguity deliberately. She would have nothing to gain from diminishing the revelation of Snape's evil, just a (comparitively) anti-climactic ending.

I see many clues - not worth listing here, as all of them and more have already been posted on mugglenet - pointing toward Snape's innocence, one of the them being JKR's mysterious ambiguousness.

Keep in mind, if you feel there is no such ambiguity in the book, that JKR answered the question ambiguously during her Emerson-Melissa interview as well. SHe did not seem surprised by the question, either.

Snape-haters? I challenge you to give me a good reason JKR would've deliberately obscured Snape's true alligence in this book.

I really think Snape is evil, even though he has some good in him. The strongest bit of evidence I see that says he works for the order is from GoF. Remember the Foe Glass in the fake Moody's office? Snape was in it. If he was acting, how did he trick the Foe glass as well?

But still, he's always been rather miserable like Voldemort.

1. We never heard the real reason as to why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Stop arguing, no, you did NOT read it. What you read was what Harry believed to be the reason, due to what Trewlany told him about Snape hearing the prophecy, spilling the beans to his Royal Evilness, and then crying to Albus and apologizing for it. But Dumbledore never said this. We may not ever know the true reason, but THAT is definitely not it. Dumbledore knows (or knew) that Snape "loathed James." And, knowing that Severus was a highly accomplished Occlumens, he could easily hide the truth from him. No, Dumbledore is not that stupid. He may have a weakness for love, but I think he has a stronger hatred for those who oppose it, and he would have seen through any lie Snape fed him.


Yup....I think you said it all here. Snape "loathed James". Severus couldn't hide the truth from Dumbledore, and Dumbledore has a weakeness for love.

The reason Dumbledore trusts Snape is that Serverus DID tell him the truth, and he DID regret it....because, although he "loathed James", he loved Lily. Probably secretly.


That's something that Dumbledore would never tell Harry, because Harry would go completely crazy thinking that Snape loved his mother, or that Snape would fly into a rage that his deepest secret has been found out.

Remember, Lily was repeated described as "kind to everyone", she's interested in potions, and I believe she was in the Slug Club of their time. I think Snape was too.

I think Snape is completely driven by the fact that Voldemort killed Lily, and he's out for revenge.

Obviously, this is all conjecture, but I think it fits pretty well with everything everyone involved has acted. I don't see anything that contradicts this.

Back to the subject of the thread: I don't think Snape was ever "good". Snape's out for Snape. He might be surrounded by good people, but the way he treated Harry most of the time couldn't be misconscrued as "good". He might be on the "good side" (meaning "against Voldemort"), but that doesn't make him good.

Of course the biggest problem with Snape still working for the Order is getting them to trust him again. Even if there were a pensieve memory or something... would you trust Snape? I'm not sure I would.

Of course the biggest problem with Snape still working for the Order is getting them to trust him again. Even if there were a pensieve memory or something... would you trust Snape? I'm not sure I would. The order doesn´t have to trust Snape anymore. They should not trust Snape anymore. Dumbledore and Snape went through great lengths to prevent that. His job is to manipulate Voldemort and to help the good side in the final showdown.
And of course his innocence will unquestionably be proved in the end. Probably beause Fawkes will help him who only does this if somebody shows great loyalty to Dumbledore.

The order doesn´t have to trust Snape anymore. They should not trust Snape anymore. Dumbledore and Snape went through great lengths to prevent that. His job is to manipulate Voldemort and to help the good side in the final showdown.
And of course his innocence will unquestionably be proved in the end. Probably beause Fawkes will help him who only does this if somebody shows great loyalty to Dumbledore.
Nobody will trust Snape anymore, neither the order nor any one on the "good" side! And lets face it : there is no more order now with Dumbledore dead (and remember, the phoenix is gone). There will still be people fighting Voldemort but much more disorganised than they were under Dumbledore.

But, Snape can still be acting on Dumbledore's orders! Dumbledore repaeted many times is live wasn't that valuable. Now Harry knows HE alone will have to fight voldemort and having Snape (which i doubt is that evil) desides the enemy can be very important in the last book.

Plus, cheesecake is certainly right. Snape could have killed so many more order members when he was runing away but he didn't ; he could also have killed Flitwick but he just stupefixed him. There is much more about the half-blood prince to find out...

The fact that Jo states Dumbledore can make emotional mistakes (especially in regards to trusting a certain Potions Master) seems to suggest to me that Albus didn't see this one coming and truly believed Snape to have reformed from evil.

With all the new theories and thoughts on Snape after HBP, I felt it's time to really state my own in regards to the greasy git.

- Snape's remorse and relation with Lily
Snape probably did feel sorry when he realised that Voldemort was going after James and Lily (only sorry for Lily naturally, as he completely loathed James in every aspect; but his hidden infatuation with the green-eyed redhead has been hinted at a bit too many times in my opinion for it not to be true). If he did indeed care for, or even love, Lily, this would explain his natural animosity towards Harry perfectly: not only does he see him as James, vers. 2.0, but if Harry had not been a prime candidate for the One to destroy Voldy, Lily would still be here. And perhaps he sees Harry as a mockery of his own failures in life, especially in regards to Lily: he looks exactly like his most hated rival, but with Lily's eyes - proof that he is Lily and James's kid, rather than hers and Severus's. I agree with many Snape fans that Dumbledore did not mention this little important fact in regards to Snape's repentance when he told Harry Severus had seen 'the error of his ways'; such a thing is definitely not something Harry should hear. Dumbledore would have two completely flipped out people on his hands: Harry would be disgusted that Snape loved his mother and Snape would absolutely freak out and never forgive Albus if he mentioned that to Harry. However, I think that Snape does prefer serving Voldy over Dumbledore and that this little 'hitch' in his loyalty was the only one: the Deatheaters were the only crowd he truly fit in and Voldemort could respect his interest for the Dark Arts. Snape took advantage of the situation by repenting to Dumbledore, who would easily believe such a sobby story in a heartbeat. Snape told Voldemort what he had done and Voldy must have laughed his skinny butt off: thanks to Snape's love for Lily, he now had one of the best actors ever right under his most hated enemy's crooked nose (it doesn't matter if he believed his love to be genuine or not, though I suspect Snape convinced Voldemort (with Occlumency, of course) that it was only a lie to get into Dumbledore's good graces). When Lily died when Voldy attacked Godric's Hollow, I believe that Snape's loyalty might have wavered for a few moments after that, but Snape is a down-to-earth kinda guy in regards to such matters and would probably convince himself that 'what is done, is done' and that nothing he would do could bring her back, so, it only made his choice for the Dark Side easier when it became obvious Voldy was about to return in GoF: there was no connection for him left to the Light Side, so he chose Voldemort over Dumbledore.

- Dumbledore's death and Snape's true loyalty
But as I've stated before, I think Severus is the embodiment of Slytherin virtues and is out to protect himself no matter what, rather than fight vehemently for a cause. Though I believe he prefers fighting for the Dark Lord rather than the good guys, he would always make sure he would not end up dead or in Azkaban: I think his conversation with Bellatrix and Narcissa at Spinner's End proved that. Now, on to more pressing matters: the death of a certain headmaster. I believe he killed Dumbledore because he had to - in order to survive (literally) this was his only option. I think he knew from the moment he heard of Draco's mission that there was no way he could pull it off: he is only a kid, after all. And if Draco joined Dumbledore's side to protect his family, his (and thereby Snape's, because of the Unbreakable Vow) odds of survival would be a lot thinner than if Lucius and Narcissa stayed loyal to the Dark Lord. Think about it - even if the Malfoys did come back to the good guys and would be protected, Voldemort would find a way to get revenge: if he can get into Hogwarts than is there a place he cannot find and kill them and thus Snape himself? Many think Snape told Dumbledore about all of it and Dumbledore would rather die himself than to let Snape be killed, but really, what is the purpose of that?! Snape cannot return to the Order (so no more spying on Voldy), Lupin, Hagrid and Harry would lynch him on sight, and what could Snape possibly do within the Dark Lord's ranks that would outweigh Dumbledore's value to the wizarding world? And if Dumbledore wanted to die himself because he cared for Snape, don't ya think he'd realise that his death at Snape's hand would drive Harry over the edge and would make him want to kill Snape and get revenge at all costs?

i really dont think that snape has left the good side....he must be working with voldemort for the Order
if he has left the good side...finishing voldemort is way too difficult with snape on his side and harry alone

I think he really is undecided. He killed ol' Dumbles on Dumbledores wishes I believe.
Next book I feel he will redeem himself by saving Malfoy's life, I reckon.
Who can say?

Up to this point, Snape has been a minor character. He's given a lot of book time but he's never influenced the overall plot. Kind of like McGonagall. If you took that character out the story, the over all plot still progresses, the major characters would have for the most part behaved the same.

Like I said, it would have been better if we would have been given more info into what Snape was doing for the Order and or his Death Eater past inorder for us to connect more.

Read the book! It was Snape's mothers book first

I have a big question to add to the topic, I thought only purebloods could enter Slytherin? So why was Snapy in there?

1) The publishing date of the HBP's text book was used to disqualify Harry's dad as possibly being the HBP. Since Snape was at school at the same time doesn't that disqualify him as well? (The publishing date was when Voldemort was at school)

2) At the end when Snape appears the other Death Eaters back way and even the werewolf backs off. All this at the apperance of Snape? Why didn't Bella show this kind of almost fear of Snape?

3) Is Snape a half blood? I was under the impression by the way he cursed at Harry's mom that he hated half bloods. The only one in Slitherin house that was a half blood is Voldemort (because he keeps it a secret).

4) If the HBP really is Snape, why is this the title of the book when Snape is a minor character in HBP? JKR is introducing another major villian? Why would Snape call himself a prince? It doesn't match his loner personality.

So, was it really Snape that killed Dumbledor?

Somethings just aren't adding up...

On your first point I agree that it does seem a little odd, but my one reasoning is that Snape's family was also poor, and he could have had to buy either second hand books, hence he got one that was 50 years old, or he could have been given it by his mother which could have put it at about 50 years old, since they have been using the same text book for so long that doesn't seem hard to believe.

As to why Bella didn't seem to be afraid of Snape, I believe it is because she was also one of Voldemorts strongest and she only feared Voldemort, and also because at the time she wasnt surprised to see him(those on the roof weren't expecting him).

And its not that he hated half bloods, he hated Mudbloods, Lily's parents were both muggles.

The reason I feel that he calls himself the "Half-Blood" Prince is because of his mother he was half-blood, and his mothers maiden name was Prince, so in essence he was half Prince (family name) and half Snape (fathers name), so that makes him a "Half-Blood" Prince.

I have a big question to add to the topic, I thought only purebloods could enter Slytherin? So why was Snapy in there?
Why not ask why Tom Riddle was in there too? Riddle was also a half blood.

Salazar Slytherin may have only allowed in pure-bloods - but the sorting hat judges candidates for Slytherin by their ambition - their desire to prove themselves.

1. Maybe the book belonged to Snape's mother, or maybe he got it secondhand from someone else. Also, just because the book was published 50 years ago, doesn't mean that it was purchased 50 years ago. Many of my college textbooks have publication dates up to 10 years before I bought them, and I certainly used them all.

2. I'm not sure that they all did back off. I think they were all hackling Draco to kill DD, but then Snape arrived on the scene, saw what was happening, and he had to kill DD because of the Unbreakable Oath. I don't think the other DE really deferred to him, I think he just showed up and took charge.

3. If all Slytherins were pure bloods, it would be a very small House. Snape probably kept it a secret that he was half-blood, as I'm sure many other Slytherins do. He cursed at Lily because she was Muggle-born, not half-blood.

4. I thought the title was very appropriate. The climax of the story revolves around the Half-Blood Prince. After all, aren't we all talking about whether he really is good or evil?

By the way, I'm sure somebody has pointed this out already, but he called himself Prince because that was his mother's name. I would imagine she was pureblood and his father a muggle, therefore making him a half blood Prince.

Why not ask why Tom Riddle was in there too? Riddle was also a half blood.

Salazar Slytherin may have only allowed in pure-bloods - but the sorting hat judges candidates for Slytherin by their ambition - their desire to prove themselves.

Sorry if this post comes directly after my other post, but I saw the one before mine and had something to add...

The Sorting Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin, even though Harry is half-blood also. (James is pure blood and Lily Muggle-born)

This proves that you don't have to be pure-blood to be in Slytherin. I bet there are many half-bloods in there. (If not, it would be an awfully small house considering the dwindling number of pure-blood families...)

3) Is Snape a half blood? I was under the impression by the way he cursed at Harry's mom that he hated half bloods. The only one in Slitherin house that was a half blood is Voldemort (because he keeps it a secret).

4) If the HBP really is Snape, why is this the title of the book when Snape is a minor character in HBP? JKR is introducing another major villian? Why would Snape call himself a prince? It doesn't match his loner personality.

Somethings just aren't adding up...

2 - Yes Snape is a Half-blood and parallels LV in some ways as he does not like his father. Remember when we caught a glimpse of young Snape cowering in the corner while his father yelled at his mother? I think like LV, Snape despises his muggle born father and therefore disassociates himself from him, hence the nickname "Prince" his mother's maiden name. It was her blood that he valued not his fathers.

3. I thought the title of the book a bit odd after reading the story. Especially since we don't find out it is Snape until right before he disappears... But that makes me wonder at the significance of Snape in this book seeing as it is titled after him.

A few things of note:

1. We see our first interaction with Snape out of the shadow of Harry's narration.

2. We learn for the 1st time that Snape is not a pure blood.

3. Snape finally gets the DADA position

Finally, Snape killing DD leaves so much speculation, could he be perhaps the best legillimens we have ever seen to confuse LV and appear to be on his side? Is he really that brave to kill DD upon his orders? Is he still on our side? I think so... and I think that in book 7, Snape may just be the key to Harry's survival.

The one hitch in him being all bad is that he was in the Death Eater's Foe Glass at the end of GoF. Personally, I think Snape is working with whoever he wants, but always FOR himself.

If Snape is evil, why in the world would JKR not make that the huge revelation of the book?
So we have something of substance to contemplate until HP7 comes out and we're forced to buy it to resolve the issue.

Snape told Dumbledore about Voldie's plan to have Draco kill him. D'dore didn't want Draco (or any other of his students) to perform an unforgivable. He also knew that if he wasn't killed then V would kill Draco. So D'dore knew that unless he could hide Draco before it was too late, he would have to die to save Draco. In dying, he also was attempting to save Draco's soul from being "torn," as killing does according to D'dore himself.
That's what he meant when he mentioned his mercy. In dying, he saved Draco's life and his soul.

The only thing unclear is his explanation of why he didn't confront Draco earlier, but my theory is that Draco wouldn't have been "ready" to be saved. He was looking forward to fullfilling his task at first, etc. So if D'dore had tried to confront him, he would have denied it, and not accepted any help because of wanting the chance to prove himself. Then V would have found out that D'dore knew, and disposed of Draco. It had less to do with Snape than with Draco, and the fact that D'dore knew his own time was near.

So I think that when D'dore found out about V's plan, he arranged it with Snape to keep an eye on Draco. Snape never found out what Draco was doing to carry out the plan, but D'dore knew that Draco might eventually get in a position to succeed. So he told Snape that whatever happens, Draco must not succeed in killing him, but that Snape must do it so that Draco wouldn't. That is why I believe Snape was acting on his orders.
Dumbledore was ready to go.

Snape told Dumbledore about Voldie's plan to have Draco kill him. D'dore didn't want Draco (or any other of his students) to perform an unforgivable. He also knew that if he wasn't killed then V would kill Draco. So D'dore knew that unless he could hide Draco before it was too late, he would have to die to save Draco. In dying, he also was attempting to save Draco's soul from being "torn," as killing does according to D'dore himself.
That's what he meant when he mentioned his mercy. In dying, he saved Draco's life and his soul.

The only thing unclear is his explanation of why he didn't confront Draco earlier, but my theory is that Draco wouldn't have been "ready" to be saved. He was looking forward to fullfilling his task at first, etc. So if D'dore had tried to confront him, he would have denied it, and not accepted any help because of wanting the chance to prove himself. Then V would have found out that D'dore knew, and disposed of Draco. It had less to do with Snape than with Draco, and the fact that D'dore knew his own time was near.

So I think that when D'dore found out about V's plan, he arranged it with Snape to keep an eye on Draco. Snape never found out what Draco was doing to carry out the plan, but D'dore knew that Draco might eventually get in a position to succeed. So he told Snape that whatever happens, Draco must not succeed in killing him, but that Snape must do it so that Draco wouldn't. That is why I believe Snape was acting on his orders.
Dumbledore was ready to go.

That just doesn't seem to fit with Dumbledores pleading with snape at the end.

I think it is clear that Dumbledores weakness was trust, and snape exploited that is evil and is and has been an active loyal DE.

He was pleading because he knew Snape didn't want to do it (as per their argument at the forest). He was pleading so that Snape would indeed follow through with the agreement. And I think he was in pain, he wanted the suffering to end.

i think he is good but will not be accepted to the good side again

As for Snape being in love with Lily, is there any real evidence to back that up?

I think things were pretty much the way they were presented in HBP - Snape agreed to the Unbreakable Vow because otherwise the DEs wouldn't trust him. Snape killed Dumbly because otherwise the Unbreakable Vow would have killed him. Snape is only loyal to Snape, and acts accordingly. The reason Snape didn't kill Harry at the end of HBP is because Voldy wants to do the job himself. Killing Harry serves no benefit to Snape.

I think in the end Snape will attempt to defeat Voldy, but not for the greater good. He'll do it for his own interests.

Of course he's still good-I mean awesome!! If he was really in with Voldemort how come he notified the Order of Harry being at the Ministry of Magic, in Order of the Phoenix? What would be gained by telling Dumboldore that he was there? He could send help...thus stopping the Death Eaters from getting the prophecy. As for Jazzy_Nifflah asking for proof that Snape was in love with Lilly, Snapes worst memory, I believe was not that everyone saw his drawers but that he hurt Lilly by calling her a mud-blood.

:welcome: DangFool

Excellent analysis! I think we'll learn more in Book 7 why exactly Dumbly trusted Snape so much, since it does appear that he made a glaring mistake by doing so.


Edit: Erm, where did DangFool's post go? Too bad, I thought it was pretty well thought out. Anyways...


:welcome: lisalupin

Why did Snape notify the Order about Harry being at the MoM? Because he's playing both sides. Like he tells Bella, Dumbly would have noticed if Snape joined forces with the DEs at the MoM. Also, he couldn't run the risk of Harry surviving the encounter, then telling the Order that Snape knew about it but did nothing.

The point is that Snape is on Snape's side, and no one else's.

And I don't understand the reasoning behind Snape loving Lily - because he called her a mudblood? When I first read that chapter it reminded me of Draco calling Hermione a mudblood, and I doubt he's in love with her (of course there are plenty of Draco/Hermy shippers out there who would say otherwise, lol).

Some people keep clinging to wild hopes based on circumstantial evidence. I agree with jazzy nifflah Snape is only loyal to Snape, and acts accordingly.

He already showed his hand at the end of HBP. Now that the Order is completely against him, he can't betray the Death Eaters or everyone would be out for his blood.

Well, I haven't read this anyplace yet, but someone has probably said this in some thread: Maybe Dumbledore knew that the poison he had to drink was one that could have no antidote, and he wanted to Snape to kill him. And it was important that Draco not destroy his chances of remaining innocent by being the one to kill him.

Some people keep clinging to wild hopes based on circumstantial evidence. I agree with jazzy nifflah

He already showed his hand at the end of HBP. Now that the Order is completely against him, he can't betray the Death Eaters or everyone would be out for his blood.
I completly agree with this, I think that Snape made his final descision when he made the unbreakable vow.

In the second chapter of HBP, I was so sure that the Unbreakable Vow was a ploy of some sort that Snape and Dumbledore had discussed that would be an advantage to the Order. And with the shock of Snape murdering Dumbledore, came the realization that Snape is no longer to be seen as a spy for the "good guys" but exactly the opposite, spying against them. I couldn't have seen anything more shocking occur. I believe that there is no hope for Snape becoming good again, and I sincerely hope that Harry gets his revenge on Snape (I know that is a horrible thing to say, but I am still quite upset, as DD is (yes still is!!!) my favourite character).

There has got to be a reason DD thinks he will be of more use dead or it was a trick and he is not dead. It has to be one of those, if not I will be truely dissapointed. When HP's wand was locked with VM in GOFire VM's most recent victims came to help Harry. Maybe he will need that kind of help again. So if DD did die I think it was his plan to do so and Snape had to do what he was told to do, just like Harry force feeding the green gu in the cave. Harry promised DD. For all he knew it may kill him. So I am sure DD made Snape promise to off him instead of Malfoy doing it. I don't like Malfoy but I don't think he is a killer either. DD told Harry he trusted Harry many times so there was more to his reasoning of why he would not further discuss Draco and Snape with him. DD knew he was going to die or not be in contact with Harry for a while. That is why he had to share what he had learned about Horcruxes with him. I also think McGon was testing Harry when she asked what he was doing with DD that night. If he did not share this with her then she can tell Harry that DD is still alive or OOtP plans.

I hope I don't cry as much with the next book. :upset: :p

I guess the reason why I dont have any faith that snape might still be on the good side is because I dont like him, but nothing I read is going to change my opinion on him.

What would anyone have to gain from this situation, other than Snape as having Voldemort's trust? None of the Order trusts Snape, so having him "spy" is pointless, and he can't betray the Death Eaters or everyone will want him dead. No, he's evil, and he can't come back anymore.

What would anyone have to gain from this situation, other than Snape as having Voldemort's trust? None of the Order trusts Snape, so having him "spy" is pointless, and he can't betray the Death Eaters or everyone will want him dead. No, he's evil, and he can't come back anymore.
agreed :)

I truly don't think Snape's evil. When he killed Dumbledore, I think that they had already disscussed what would be done and that it would be done as a sacrifice of some sort. Either that or he was operating under the Imperius Curse.

Snape is INNOCENT until the last page in book 7 in my eyes.

I truly don't think Snape's evil. When he killed Dumbledore, I think that they had already disscussed what would be done and that it would be done as a sacrifice of some sort. Either that or he was operating under the Imperius Curse.

Snape is INNOCENT until the last page in book 7 in my eyes.
book 7??? dont you mean 6?
And I hate snape but he is a powerful wizard and would be able to through off an imperius curse.

No, I mean book 7. The last book in the series.
Nothing is final until the end of book 7.

No, I mean book 7. The last book in the series.
Nothing is final until the end of book 7.
lol I should have read that that way...I read this comment and then that one and relized it is one o-clock am and I am very sleepy...
lol sorry for my stupidity!!

Hey man, it's all good. No harm done. :)

:) okay...*yawns* I have to stay up til my rents get home anyways.....so I think I"ll stay on here! :)

Snape is good!

We see is Dumbledore apparently pleading with Severus for his life, then Snape 'gazing at the professor for a moment' with a 'look of hatred and revulsion' and finally casting the Killing Curse. Later Harry will report this to his friends and members of the Order and it will be seen as a great betrayal (by everyone except Harry, who has 'known' it all along).

But back up a moment: Snape gazes at the Headmaster for a moment. Two accomplished Legilimens do nothing but look at each other for a moment in the midst of a heated battle situation, and we are to assume there is nothing passing between them? Oh, no. I think Dumbledore is asking Snape, via his thoughts, to kill him. Remember that Dumbledore's pain and delirium in the cave have already led him to ask for release by death ('Kill me,' he says to Harry). Now Dumbledore is a bit more rational, but he sees that his own death at Severus' hands can serve a purpose. His pleas are not for his life but for his death.

Snape does it without question or argument, just as he went back to Voldemort at Dumbledore's behest after the Tri-Wizard tournament. Unlike Harry, Snape takes Dumbledore's word as law.

Reinterpreted in light of a request by Dumbledore, Snape's look of 'hatred and revulsion' takes on a new meaning. This is not hatred and revulsion for Dumbledore personally (or what Dumbledore stands for) so much as hatred and revulsion for being asked to do this to Dumbledore, for being asked to add murder to all of the other things he has done. This may explain also Snape's extreme reaction, later, to being called a coward; he has just been asked to kill the man in whom he placed his trust--the man who has protected him for fifteen years, and for whom he has done dangerous things, including spying and now committing murder in order to keep a student safe and uncorrupted by evil--and has complied with the request. Of course being called a coward after all this, and by Potter, would rankle.

So, I think that Snape is still totally good. We just get Harry's POV which is watered down with so much Snape hating.


I think that is a great theory, and Snape being one of my favorite characters, I hope you're right. But there's one thing wrong with your theory.
We learened in the last book during the MoM scene from Bellatrix (i think) that you truly have to hate someone to hit them with any of the 3 unforgivable curses. Now, would Snape be able to kill Dumbledore for the greater good if he was truly loyal to the side of good, which Dumbledor lead?

If it turns outthat Snape is just plain evil, then I hope he gets what he deserves. Dumbldore was one of my other favorites, and I'm sufficiently p.o.'d now that he's gone.

By the way, did anyone else notice Snape being unusually mellow this time around? Like when Ron smarts off to him in DADA, he just shakes it off without even a snarky comeback. He was a little tamer than what I'm used to. I think something's up. Imperious curse, maybe?

But as much as I'm fascinated by Snape's character, there is no doubt in my mind that he is, to some degree, mentally unstable, which will ultimately be a contributing factor in his fate, whatever it may be.

When I first read where Snape kills him I thought "What a -blahblah-!!" but then I thought about the situation as a whole, the two most important things I think - and I won't go into much detail because these points have been made really well in other posts, but these are the points which make me think Snape murdering Dumbledore is not all as it seems.

Firstly Dumbledore pleading - how uncharacteristic, now this could be put down to the situation he is facing and how peoples true selves show in hard times, it could be fear etc - but Dumbledore has never been afraid of death and he most certainly doesn't beg to enemies, obviously I can’t prove this beyond doubt but I think it’s reasonable to assume this because in the few times we’ve seen him face DE or enemies has he ever shown them anything other than a harry-like stubbornness to show he is not scared or suprised at the level of cunningness and sometimes power in what they have done? All he shows is contempt, he is almost patronising, kind of sardonically congratulates them when he realises whats happened. With Snape he doesn't do this, he pleads - why plead with someone who (if dumbledore is indeed unaware of Snapes agenda and has been wrong about him all along) will have shown himself to be a huge traitor - there would be no point pleading, Snape would be a lost cause and now Dumbledore would know he always had been – I don’t think Dumbledore wouldn’t give a true enemy the satisfaction. As many others have said, I agree he is pleading for Snape to kill him. (kind of similar to what Harry had to do). This also links nicely with the forest confrontation.

Snapes words to Harry - he gives him advice, almost still teacher-like as though his position towards Harry hasn’t changed, he still despises him but as he is loyal to Dumbledore he advises him in most sneaky way possible, it comes across as criticism as Snapes advice to Harry always has. You don’t give your enemy advice, no matter how you present it, Snapes words and something much deeper than rage at being called a coward speaks for itself.

You can come out from behind the couch now *ramble over* :blush:

He was pleading because he knew Snape didn't want to do it (as per their argument at the forest). He was pleading so that Snape would indeed follow through with the agreement. And I think he was in pain, he wanted the suffering to end.
Why is it so hard for people to accept that possibly the brave prideful, dumbledore was indeed pleading for his life? Why do people have to constantly twist and distort situations in order to turn it into something they find more acceptable? Read the passage it says " harry had never heard such fear in dumbledores voice before" Now why would dumbledore be afraid if he did indeed want snape to betray him? Personally, i dont think that it was death that dumbledore was necessarily pleading against , but for snape not to betray him. Harry questioned dumbledore time and time again as to why exactly he trusted snape, yet he still held fast to his beliefs. Dumbledore was so blinded by his trust for snape that it in the end it was hard to accept that a guy you've let teach in your school all theses years had taken you for a fool. I think during the last moments of his life he was clearly in denial, IMO.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that possibly the brave prideful, dumbledore was indeed pleading for his life? Why do people have to constantly twist and distort situations in order to turn it into something they find more acceptable? Read the passage it says " harry had never heard such fear in dumbledores voice before" Now why would dumbledore be afraid if he did indeed want snape to betray him? Personally, i dont think that it was death that dumbledore was necessarily pleading against , but for snape not to betray him. Harry questioned dumbledore time and time again as to why exactly he trusted snape, yet he still held fast to his beliefs. Dumbledore was so blinded by his trust for snape that it in the end it was hard to accept that a guy you've let teach in your school all theses years had taken you for a fool. I think during the last moments of his life he was clearly in denial, IMO.

here here!!!

I've said this before and I'm going to keep saying till someone listens to me:

In OotP when Snape is giving Harry Occlumency lessons. he keeps refering to Voldemort as the "Dark Lord". and Harry questions him on it. he was in Hogwarts-guarded by the most powerful protection spells ever.he is a superb Legimens.there is no chance of anyone but Harry hearing him speak. So why keep up the charade of being a death eater and calling him the Dark Lord? IMO: he wasn't keeping up any charade he is/was/and always will be evil.

Because Dumbledore knows that death, for the well-organized mind, is the next step in the journey of oneself. It's not because he's proud, it's because he doesn't fear death that many believe that Dumbledore would not plead for his life.

I had given this post its own thread but that thread has been locked, so I mosied on over this way and decided to post it here.

I just finished several hours' work (spread out over a couple of days) on a three-page essay on why Snape really will turn out to be good in the end. Then I realized that I had overlooked a flaw in my theory. One that could change everything. I went back to check it in Book Six, ended up reading both The Lightning Struck Tower and Flight of the Prince over again, and I swear, I wanted to slap myself. Because I realized how dead wrong I was, and how I had just wasted all my time, because Snape, clearly, is not on Dumbledore's side at all.

I would like to bring your attention to two quotations. One:


"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face."
--US version 595

If that's not a clear expression of true hatred, I don't know what is. He hates him. He hates him.

And, two:

"DON'T - " screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them - "CALL ME COWARD!"

There we are. Well, I'm not going to waste time pointing out exact details, I'm just going to tell it like it is. Obviously it really hits home to call Snape a coward. It upsets him to quite an extreme degree. Something must have happened during his life and he was too afraid to act, so he suffered for it. Then Dumbledore came along, good old shining wise Dumbledore, and helped Snape out of quite a jam. He forever resents Dumbledore for doing him this favor, whatever it was, but owes him, because of the way wizarding bonds work (remember, book three, Dumbledore explained that Pettigrew owes Harry a great deal for ordering Sirius not to kill him? Dumbledore also explains that since James saved Snape's life in school, Snape had to do the same for Harry, to cover his half of the bargain, much as he despised him). That's why he played spy for a while. Protected Harry at school for a couple of years, much as he hated doing it. And now, finally, his half of the deal is done, he gave Dumbledore enough information. He doesn't need to be on his side anymore. Now is his chance to prove he doesn't need him. To prove he is strong enough to kill him. And he does just that.

I would like to add another couple of quotes, from JK herself:

"'Snape is fun to write, because he is a deeply horrible person.' [Read the exact quote from Family Education, 1999]"

"JKR thinks that that the thought of Snape in love is a "very horrible idea" and is stunned that someone wonders if Snape might fall in love. We will find out why in book 7. [Read the exact quote from WBUR interview, 1999]"

JKR: "You shouldn't think [Snape is] too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely." [Read the exact quote from Royal Albert Hall, 2003]

JKR jokingly tells us that she finds it depressing that we love Snape and her bad boys. [Read the exact quote from the Edinburgh Book Festival, 2004]

All the above quotations came from ---> http://www.madamscoop.org/themes/snape.htm

I don't think she wants us to hold out for him being good. And not because it will spoil things. We're clearly not supposed to like him.

I am highly disappointed to find this out. I really wanted a reason to like Snape. He's so intriguing. Complex and intriguing and mysterious. But there have been many clues this would happen to Dumbledore. We always knew Dumbledore's biggest shortcoming would be that he trusts too easily. We knew that a stupid mistake like that would mark his downfall. Dumbledore's death and Snape's betrayal were not meant to add to the mystery of the story, they were supposed to add to the drama. To Harry's motivation. Snape is evil. I don't think he was born that way, as Tom Riddle was, but he is most definitely evil now, and he's not coming over to the good side.

My theory got bashed on the last thread, but I think it's very plausible.

Thoughts?

First off let me say that I want Snape to be good. I want DD to be right all along about trusting Snape. But now I'm leaning more towards the evil-Snape theory. I think Snape has been thinking about going back to Voldemort all along, and what DD was pleading was for Snape to come to the good side once and for all, to choose what is right. But Snape at that moment decided to align himself with Voldemort instead.

One reason why I switched over is the recent interviews. I thought JK Rowling wanted us to look deeper into the story lines, beyond what is obvious to most 14 year old readers but now I realize she doesn't want us to think very hard, and to simply go with the obvious. Well I think the obvious answer is Snape only has his own interests in heart.

Snape cant be good..he just cant be...

I honestly must say that I hope Snape is still on the good side but can't really see it now because he would really have to mean/want to kill to use AK, as they say you have to really mean it to use the cruciatus curse so I would of thought you would really want to kill that person to use it the curse.

Anyway I just want to say (dunno if anyone has pointed this out yet), why did Dumbledore get knocked back off the tower when Snape used AK on him because every other person who has died by this curse (in the books) just seems to collapse where they are and not move. Does this show that Snape hated Dumbledore that much that it made the curse powerful enough to knock him flying? I bet some people would say that it might show that it was staged and hope that Dumbledore isn't dead but if that were true then Snape would of died, so IMO everyone saying that maybe Dumbledore aint dead can't really being true because Snape would die from the unbreakable vow

to answer the question- two words
NO IDEA

urgh jk really has a way of twisting things!!

Anyway I just want to say (dunno if anyone has pointed this out yet), why did Dumbledore get knocked back off the tower when Snape used AK on him because every other person who has died by this curse (in the books) just seems to collapse where they are and not move. Does this show that Snape hated Dumbledore that much that it made the curse powerful enough to knock him flying?

I whole-heartedly believe that. I was going to quote your message and answer your question for you that way, but you answered it yourself. I do think that Snape hated Dumbledore that much, and now he's finally free to work on one side. He will be held in Voldemort's highest esteem, and that's what he wants. To be on top.

\]
If that's not a clear expression of true hatred, I don't know what is. He hates him. He hates him.


That might be true...but not necessarily for the reasons you think.

Look at the pages where Harry force-feeds Dumbledore the potion in the cave; Harry is described as having "hatred" and "revulsion" at what he's doing.

If Harry can, can't Snape?

Because Dumbledore knows that death, for the well-organized mind, is the next step in the journey of oneself. It's not because he's proud, it's because he doesn't fear death that many believe that Dumbledore would not plead for his life.

Not for selfish reasons, no, but what if he had wisdom left to impart to Harry? What if there were some things he had left to tell him? What if he felt his work was unfinished?

And I believe what Dumbledore actually says is, "death is but the next great adventure."

That might be true...but not necessarily for the reasons you think.

Look at the pages where Harry force-feeds Dumbledore the potion in the cave; Harry is described as having "hatred" and "revulsion" at what he's doing.

If Harry can, can't Snape?

I would LIKE to believe that, but I think that we're all going to have to accept that Snape is not that nice of a guy, pure and simple. I think that us Snape-is-good campers (well, former camper, in my case) are going to have to stop trying too hard to read between the lines. We're taking it just a bit too far now.

JK answers The Leaky Cauldron's question on Snape being evil as if she thought the answer to that was painfully obvious. Him being truly evil really is painfully obvious.

"Yes, Bellatrix, I stayed," said Snape, betraying a hint of impatience for the first time. "I had a comfortable job that I preferred to a stint in Azkaban. They were rounding up the Death Eaters, you know. Dumbledore's protection kept me out of jail; it was most convenient and I used it."

So there was Snape's motivation for switching over to Dumbledore's side.

We'll see in two years.

There is just one small problem. In Gof, Dumbledore says Snape *was* indeed a deatheater but turned spy for us *before* the fall of Voldemort at great personal risk. I would assume the DEs were being rounded up *after* the fall of Voldy, so what gives?

I'd also like to bring attention to the AK curse used by Snape. To prove my point, I'll bring up the instance of Harry trying to use "Crucio" in Book 5.

"Never used an Unforgiveable Curse before, have you boy?" she yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. "You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain--to enjoy it--...

[QUOTE=ggu

Anyway I just want to say (dunno if anyone has pointed this out yet), why did Dumbledore get knocked back off the tower when Snape used AK on him because every other person who has died by this curse (in the books) just seems to collapse where they are and not move. [/QUOTE]

Thank God! I wrote this is six seperate threads and no one responded to why Dumbledore did an entire suspension thing before falling off the ramparts while everyone else just kind of curled up and died on the spot.

The only reason I don't believe Snape killing Dumbledore is as simple as Dumbledore having trusted the wrong man is because with Rowling, it is never as simple as that! There are atleast 4 different theories with canon to support all of them!!

1. Snape is an evil death eater and DD trusted the wrong man - He did use the unforgivable curse and you have to mean it to use it. He meant the curse, then I think of that entire suspension thing and wonder if it was the AK that killed DD in the first case! Besides, proof of DD being wrong is in every book. He hires a man with the dark lord pasted to his head, he hires a deatheater, he thinks Black is out to kill Harry, hell he makes atleast one mistake in every book! It is not about DD's falliability, as much as it is about him trusting the one man no one else entirely trusted. It is about him trusting the man with the death eater past and about whether even an accomplished acclumens while capable of hiding his emotions can fake emotions to such an extent that it be percieved as the `greatest regret of his life'. Then again the argument between Snape and DD (as recreated by Hagrid). It is hardly likely that it went like this.
Snape: Hey Prof. I am sick of being in the order. I want to go back to Voldy.
DD: No way dude! You agreed to be a good guy and that is just it.

Or
Snape: I don't want to protect Harry. I hate him.
DD: No way dude, you agreed to do it. Thats all there is to it.

Or
Snape: I have a headache, I cannot make you that massage oil you want and give you a body rub.
DD: No way. You agreed to do it. Thats all there is to it.

2. Snape is working for himself : Possible. Very possible. There is possible canon. He lies to Voldy, he lies to DD. Consider the inconsistency between what he says to explain why he defected to Bella Vs. what DD says about him (defected before the fall of voldy at great personal risk). He may have killed DD solely to save his life (unbreakable vow). He has betrayed Voldy in the past, he has seemingly betrayed the order and Vance and Bones. Does the Prince have a secret agenda to become Lord?

3. Snape was good but got tempted back into the dark side: DD didn't want to give him the DADA job because he feared it would bring out the worst in him. Maybe it did. Maybe the respect he got from the DE was much more desirable than the comparitively less trust he got from the order( he can read minds, he must have known the only reason they trusted him was because DD did). Maybe seeing Harry was just too much reminder of the days the world saw his graying undies. Maybe he was upset DD overrode him and hired Lupin his potential killer from teenagehood. Who knows. Maybe the pleading DD did was for Snape not to give up on his redemption.

4. Snape is a nasty git, but on DD's side. This is also possible (Oh a million curses at JKR's incredible ability to layer). Why would DD trust Snape so blindly? He asks for him twice when he comes back from the locket quest to the point of telling Harry not to speak to anyone else (that includes other order members).Okay, you say he believes in the goodness of people, but there is a huge difference between believing that just because someone is a werewolf, they should not be shunned and believing that a deatheater can go good.

Snape: Yeah, it is my biggest regret that I told Voldy that prophecy thingie...I didn't think he was gonna kill James and Lily.
DD: But didn't you hate James?
Snape: Err....yeah, but though he bullied me, hung me upside down, potentially took off my underpants in front of fifty people, hexed me and generally acted like a git, deep down, really deep down, I was errr.fond of him. And I really thought Lily was hot....you know for a mud,..I mean muggle born.
DD: I trust you completely. I believe it was the biggest regret of your life and I am going to place all these students that I love under your direct supervision. Because I am trusting like that. You start tomorrow.

So, personally the reason why every theory is being discussed is because every damned possibility is possible. So thanks JKR for wearing out my braincells and let the speculation continue!!

I would LIKE to believe that, but I think that we're all going to have to accept that Snape is not that nice of a guy, pure and simple. I think that us Snape-is-good campers (well, former camper, in my case) are going to have to stop trying too hard to read between the lines. We're taking it just a bit too far now.

JK answers The Leaky Cauldron's question on Snape being evil as if she thought the answer to that was painfully obvious. Him being truly evil really is painfully obvious.


Well, I *do* think Snape is evil. He always has been. "Good" people wouldn't treat Harry the way Snape has treated people at school.

But just because he's evil doesn't mean he can't be working against Voldemort. And I think that's what Snape's been doing, but for his own selfish reasons (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=2666272#post2666272).

My apologies to the mods before hand, if there has already been a thread established discussing this.
-------------------------
As I was re-reading the second chapter of HBP, Spinner's End, Snape puts up a very detailed and compelling story as to why he didn't join the Dark Lord as soon as the Dark Mark appeared. I think that he truly has joined forces with the Dark Lord, evident by what he said to Bellatrix (although we can't take a character's for it) but JKR also said "Snape is fun to write, because he is a deeply horrible person.' [Read the exact quote from Family Education, 1999]"

Needless to say that with the murder of Dumledore at Snape's hands, whether it forced or not forced on by Dumbledore (read "Dumbledore's sacrifice. He did not plead for his life." thread if you don't know what I'm talking about), the Order will definetly not accept Snape back. Taken by their reactions:

pg.615 HBP US Edition- "Snape," reapeated McGonagall faintly, falling into the chair. We all wondered...but he trusted...always...Snape ...I can't believe it..." and Tonks reaction, " But Dumbledore swore he was on our side!"

Even if Snape was forced to kill Dumbledore, the Order is going to be at a disadvantage in the Second War by losing one of their key "spies".

Any thoughts?

Well, if Snape is still loyal, Dumbledore's portrait can make it clear to everyone.

That is if the portrait of Dumbledore will be willing to tell everyone. For some reason I don't think Dumbledore's portrait will say anything.

Well, I *do* think Snape is evil. He always has been. "Good" people wouldn't treat Harry the way Snape has treated people at school.

But just because he's evil doesn't mean he can't be working against Voldemort. And I think that's what Snape's been doing, but for his own selfish reasons (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=2666272#post2666272).

Well then, why would he be repulsed by killing Dumbledore?

When I say Snape's evil, I mean to say that Snape is on Voldemort's side. I'd use nasty or horrible to describe the kind of person he is in terms of how he has treated Harry for the past six years. I do believe that he ultimately works for himself as well, but I also think that he sees working for Voldemort as the best way to satisfy his personal interests. And to kill Dumbledore...well...that's a huge blow to the good side, and they're significantly weakened by it. Will he ever believe that switching sides will be profitable to him?

Also, what does he have to gain by working alone? If he tries to leave Voldemort he'll get killed. Besides, Voldemort is much more powerful than Harry right now anyway (or if you want to get technical and say they're equals according to the prophecy, then Voldemort can better harness his powers than Harry), and those are the only two that matter. In order to stay alive, Snape has to be working for somebody. He's in too deep. And the Order is most definitely not taking him back, so...



(for where the title of the post came from - I couldn't really think of a better one - go to http://www.thefifthdistrict.com/potter for a good laugh)

Well, I *do* think Snape is evil. He always has been. "Good" people wouldn't treat Harry the way Snape has treated people at school.

But just because he's evil doesn't mean he can't be working against Voldemort. And I think that's what Snape's been doing, but for his own selfish reasons (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=2666272#post2666272).


I think that Snape has aligned himself with Voldy. Especially sinse he made the unbreakable vow to help kill DD. I think that that was when his descision was made.

I'm sure DD's portrait will talk, but... the way I imagine it, it's almost like artificial intelligence. Yeah, it can talk and advise, but I don't really think it will be revealing secrets that only DD knew. That would be too easy. If Snape is good, I think the dynamics of him proving his goodness will be a huge point in #7. I think his OotP days are over.

I thought of a new reason that DD might have trusted Snape...

We see Snape heal Malfoy after Harry cast Sectumsempra which closed up the wounds but it left scars (SS says he needed to go to the hospital wing and if he took dittany immediately he might not be scarred p523 US HBP). DD says Snape stopped the spread of whatever dark magic/potion burned/damaged his hand and that he wanted to be taken to Snape after drinking the poison because Snape knows so much about dark arts. We have also learned that its possible that Snape overheard more of or the entire prophecy.

We also know there is a lot of missing time between LV killing Lily and James, and Hagrid bringing Harry to Privet Drive.

What if Snape tried to stop LV but was too late (he could have been with Wormtail and LV when Wormtail told the location of the Potters)...what if he found Harry near death, healed him and the lightening bolt scar was what was left? He then took Harry to DD and helped inact the "old magic" that Lily left in Harry and then returned him to Godrics Hollow for Hagrid to find on DDs orders so as to keep Snape's cover? Maybe Snape saved Harry the night LV attacked and that is why DD trusted him so much? One thing that makes me suspicious is that even on the night that Harry is left at the Dursleys, he is described as having a scar – not a cut, or gash...meaning it was healed....and DD did say he could try and get rid of it but scars are sometimes good to have. And I don't think Hagrid healed it.

Dumbledore never told them everything in real life, I for some reason don't think as a potrait he will talk that much.

Well then, why would he be repulsed by killing Dumbledore?


Because he didn't want to do it. There's a HUGE hint about this when JRK used those same words to describe Harry's reaction to force-feeding Dumbledore. "Hatred" and "revulsion". Snape could be repulsed by having to kill Dumbledore the same way Harry was repulsed by having to feed Dumbledore a potion that Harry thought was probably going to kill Dumbledore.


Also, what does he have to gain by working alone? If he tries to leave Voldemort he'll get killed. Besides, Voldemort is much more powerful than Harry right now anyway (or if you want to get technical and say they're equals according to the prophecy, then Voldemort can better harness his powers than Harry), and those are the only two that matter. In order to stay alive, Snape has to be working for somebody. He's in too deep. And the Order is most definitely not taking him back, so...


Well, see that's the thing. I think he knows he's not going to stay alive, but is doing all this because he's driven by (revenge against Voldemort) what I referred to in that previous post's link I gave. Snape got himself into a situation that he couldn't extract himself from. That Unbreakable Vow he was pretty much forced to take (or he would revealed) pretty much set him down a road that he can't get himself out of at this point.

He ended up doing something he didn't want to do (kill Dumbledore... that's what I think the argument that Hagrid told the kids about... the argument that Snape and DD were having).

And now he really is alone, and I think he knows it. I can't think of another reason that he would freak out so completely when Harry called him a "coward".

I mean, he'd have to be pretty dang brave to be carrying on alone at this point.

Yes, but it's already been stated that an Unforgivable Curse doesn't work unless you mean it, and you want to kill them. Avada Kedavra wouldn't work out of obligation.

Dumbledore never told them everything in real life, I for some reason don't think as a potrait he will talk that much.
A portait has to learn everything that it knows anyways. Its not like one would just know everything the wizard of its self knew. I mean it would just be wierd if they did. I imagion a portait of Dumbledore to be very joking and light hearted.

I think that Snape is evil and I never ever thought otherwise. No matter how many times Dumbledore defended Snape to harry or refused to belive that Snape was bad I just always felt that he was not what DD thought he was. The scene where Snape kills DD and DD begs Snape I did not think that he was begging to be killed I thought he was begging Snape not to let him down, not to make a mockery of the trust that he put in him. I do not think that Snape is on Voldermort's side because of past actions. IMO Snape made the unbreakable vow because he wanted Bellatrix to belive that he was really trustworthy, however he didn't vow to kill DD he just promised to help Draco if he needed it which he did. So while I do think that Snape is totally evil and pursuing his own agenda I'm conflicted on weather he really wanted to kill DD, but to use the Avada Kedevra on DD which is a curse that needs power and alot of powerful emotions in order for it to work as evidenced in TOOTP makes me think that he did want to kill DD.

Yes, but it's already been stated that an Unforgivable Curse doesn't work unless you mean it, and you want to kill them. Avada Kedavra wouldn't work out of obligation.
I remember that. Because in book four Moody told them that they could mutter the words and it was unlikely he'd get as much as a nose bleed or what ever. But how would that work with the imperious curse. Its just stronger if you want it more?

Actually, Harry attempts "Crucio" on Bellatrix in OotP. She goes flying a few feet, but is otherwise unharmed as righteous fury doesn't work.

I think Snape is good. He is a good professor an highly skilled. He, in my opinoin is working as a double agent an has to to exactly as both Dumbledore an Voldemort say. I think he is more sided with Dumbledore, after all Dumbledore took him in in times of need. I think he was sided with Dumbledore in that scene when he "appeared to kill him." There is evidence leading to him being on both sides, but i do believe he is on the good.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that possibly the brave prideful, dumbledore was indeed pleading for his life? Why do people have to constantly twist and distort situations in order to turn it into something they find more acceptable? Read the passage it says " harry had never heard such fear in dumbledores voice before" Now why would dumbledore be afraid if he did indeed want snape to betray him? Personally, i dont think that it was death that dumbledore was necessarily pleading against , but for snape not to betray him. Harry questioned dumbledore time and time again as to why exactly he trusted snape, yet he still held fast to his beliefs. Dumbledore was so blinded by his trust for snape that it in the end it was hard to accept that a guy you've let teach in your school all theses years had taken you for a fool. I think during the last moments of his life he was clearly in denial, IMO.

But why would he think Snape was about to betray him? Snape had just walked up the stairs and said nothing. If we know that Dumbledore trusted him so, why would he immediately begin pleading with him to NOT betray him? What would have happened in those few seconds to make him think Snape was about to betray him?

About the look of revulsion -- some thoughts:
Harry could have misread the look. It could just be that Snape is an ugly git who was angry about the events in general, and Harry thought it was hatred.
Or, as I've mentioned, Snape was a talented wizard; perhaps he could use the curses without meaning them in his heart, but by pulling up those feelings and emotions based on past experience.
I also don't see how anyone who knew Dumbledore as intimately as Snape obviously did could hate him.

And: Okay, so the Dark Lord wants Harry to himself, but would that really have prevented Snape from using a few hexes or jinxes on Harry? I mean, as Harry's attacking him, he just deflects, making Harry frustrated to the point of calling him a coward, which Snape obviously doesn't like. If Snape didn't have an obligation to the good side, and was really evil, don't you think he could have thrown something a little stronger than the slap on the face that he finally throws when his temper boils over?

I would like to make it clear for my part that just because I support the theory that he is still faithful to Dumbledore, doesn't mean I think he is nice or "good" in that sense of the word. A better semantic choice would be "loyal." I believe he has remained loyal to Dumbledore. It could even be that he made mistakes that could have prevented the situation from reaching the point that killing Dumbledore became necessary. In that case, he certainly bears more blame than he already does for what his past actions have caused. He is no saint, but I don't think he is evil, and I support the theory that he was acting on orders.

I also have no problem accepting when I am wrong, and if it turns out that my theory is wrong, and we find out in book 7 that he really did kill Dumbledore because he hated him and was being a faithful DE, so be it. But it's fun to even have the ambiguity -- it's part of what makes the characters so interesting.

I don't think you can fake a murderous intention well enough to fool the AK curse.

But why would he think Snape was about to betray him? Snape had just walked up the stairs and said nothing. If we know that Dumbledore trusted him so, why would he immediately begin pleading with him to NOT betray him? What would have happened in those few seconds to make him think Snape was about to betray him?

About the look of revulsion -- some thoughts:
Harry could have misread the look. It could just be that Snape is an ugly git who was angry about the events in general, and Harry thought it was hatred.
Or, as I've mentioned, Snape was a talented wizard; perhaps he could use the curses without meaning them in his heart, but by pulling up those feelings and emotions based on past experience.
I also don't see how anyone who knew Dumbledore as intimately as Snape obviously did could hate him.

And: Okay, so the Dark Lord wants Harry to himself, but would that really have prevented Snape from using a few hexes or jinxes on Harry? I mean, as Harry's attacking him, he just deflects, making Harry frustrated to the point of calling him a coward, which Snape obviously doesn't like. If Snape didn't have an obligation to the good side, and was really evil, don't you think he could have thrown something a little stronger than the slap on the face that he finally throws when his temper boils over?

I would like to make it clear for my part that just because I support the theory that he is still faithful to Dumbledore, doesn't mean I think he is nice or "good" in that sense of the word. A better semantic choice would be "loyal." I believe he has remained loyal to Dumbledore. It could even be that he made mistakes that could have prevented the situation from reaching the point that killing Dumbledore became necessary. In that case, he certainly bears more blame than he already does for what his past actions have caused. He is no saint, but I don't think he is evil, and I support the theory that he was acting on orders.

I also have no problem accepting when I am wrong, and if it turns out that my theory is wrong, and we find out in book 7 that he really did kill Dumbledore because he hated him and was being a faithful DE, so be it. But it's fun to even have the ambiguity -- it's part of what makes the characters so interesting.

I want to share this from an Time interview with J.k. Rowley,(she did not say this; the interviewer shared his perspective based upon his interview with her: "People aren't good and bad by nature; they change and transform and struggle. As Dumbledore tells Harry, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." I still believe that Snape is able to be redeemed. I believe all of us can be redeemed.

I don't think you can fake a murderous intention well enough to fool the AK curse.
The only mention of this curse being used was by Harry himself. There was no green ray of light, an Dumbledore didn't fall dead on the floor. HE FLEW LIKE RAMBO out of the tower. I mean I think that there has to be something fishy going on here.

Course he's good! A character who thousands of people have the hots fer has ter ber good!
(just kidding! just kidding!)
But I still think he is good. Too much evidence. More, infact, than there is for him being evil.

But why would he think Snape was about to betray him? Snape had just walked up the stairs and said nothing. If we know that Dumbledore trusted him so, why would he immediately begin pleading with him to NOT betray him? What would have happened in those few seconds to make him think Snape was about to betray him?

Sometimes in certain situations, people just have an intutitive feeling that something is about to happen. Snape didnt need to state openly to dumbledore "listen, i am about to betray you" in order for dumbledore to know this. Dumbledore knew that his time was up and expressed this with the fear in his voice. Snape was then surrounded by a bunch of des who were pressuring him to finish off dumbledore. Draco couldnt do it, so either way, the job needed to be done or suffer the wrath of the dark lord. If snape didnt go through with it to save face they probably would hjave killed him realizing he was not on hteir side after all. What would it look like, refusing the direct orders of the datrk lord? Dont you think dumbledore, the genius that he is, would have figured how uncompromising the position snape was in from the minete he walked into the room? What else was snape going to do? Get slaughtered in the process of trying to take on three des and a werewolf? I mean, come on, hes a slytherin after all. Phineas Negellius never spoke truer words when he said , "we slytherins will always chose to save our own necks" and snape isnt any different.