Zacharias Smith: Descendent of Helga Hufflepuff?

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NYCwitch920
July 17th, 2005, 11:16 pm
In the chapter, "Lord Voldemort's Request", we meet Hepzibah Smith. When she shows Voldemort the golden cup, he realizes that he sees a badger on the engraving.

"Helga Hufflepuff's, as you very well know, you clever boy!" said Hepzibah
....
"Didn't I tell you I was distantly descended? This has been handed down inthe family for years and years. Lovely, isn't it? (HBP, pg. 436, US Edition)

So we know she shares the same surname as Zacharias Smith. Zacharias is also in Hufflepuff House. Does that mean he's related to Hepzibah? If he is, he's a distant descendent of Helga Hufflepuff. If he is....Voldemort has turned one of his family's heirlooms into a horcrux. What are all your thoughts on this?

Edit: Fellow CoS user,Amina, cleverly pointed out that Hepzibah and Zacharias are both Hebrew names, giving another clue into their possible connection!

Viola Silvana
July 17th, 2005, 11:18 pm
Oh, how clever! This could easily be true, though Smith might be a common name even in the wizarding world. I wouldn't be surprised, though... especially since Zacharias got a little more attention in this book.

Delma
July 17th, 2005, 11:21 pm
I thought about Zacharias when I read that Hepzibah was a descendant of Hufflepuff
but I had forgotten about it when I reached the part about the Horcruxes. Zacharias could be useful when Harry is looking for the remaining Horcruxes.

Fuchsia
July 17th, 2005, 11:22 pm
I hope it's true and not another Mark Evans fiasco.

How many times can old Zacharias be a red herring after all? Snape and Draco finally stopped being one.

Amina
July 17th, 2005, 11:27 pm
Yes, this occured to me as well, especially as both are hebrew names (well, Zacharias a Greek variant thereof), so there is more than just the last name connection. Would be interesting indeed...

leenielou
July 17th, 2005, 11:30 pm
I wondered this too. What with this: especially as both are hebrew names (well, Zacharias a Greek variant thereof), so there is more than just the last name connection

and his many mentions, I am hoping that it is true.

grrliz
July 17th, 2005, 11:30 pm
So we know she shares the same surname as Zacharias Smith. Zacharias is also in Hufflepuff House. Does that mean he's related to Hepzibah? If he is, he's a distant descendent of Helga Hufflepuff. If he is....Voldemort has turned one of his family's heirlooms into a horcrux. What are all your thoughts on this?This was my initial thought as well, but then again Smith is a ridiculously common surname. Zacharias Smith is rather pompous, though, so you'd think he'd be crowing about something like this. At the same time, he really wasn't around much in HBP, so if they are related it may not be that important.

Limtedfantasy
July 17th, 2005, 11:35 pm
I believe it is very likely that Zacharias Smith could be the Descendent of Hufflepuff due to the reasons already mentioned. But then again, as some have also mentioned: Smith is a really common surname.

Malevolin
July 17th, 2005, 11:40 pm
Zacharias may very well be related to Hepzibah, Zacharias is in fact not greek but hebrew -Zachary, the name I beleive you were thinking of is the shortened form of the former- but I cannot forsee how he may be of any help to Harry as the cup of Hufflepuff was stolen by Voldemort and the Smiths have not the foggiest idea where it has gone as stated by the book.

k_evans15
July 17th, 2005, 11:40 pm
yes.. smith is a common surname. but look what happend with "evans".. she wouldn't make that mistake again..

im hoping he can help harry and is infact a descendant

Amina
July 17th, 2005, 11:42 pm
Smith is common, but as i said above, both are in common possession of Hebrew names, which implies to me a connection. Of all the names she could have chosen, Hepzibah is not the first one which comes to mind.

As for not crowing about his descent - he may well not know, especially as they are as a family no longer in possession of the goblet.

Edit - to the above poster, my apologies - I was under the impression Zacharias was the Greek form of a Hebrew name (the spelling of which I am not familiar) used in the Bible, when it was translated. However, being neither Jewish, nor a Hebrew speaker, I speak with no authority!

Vance
July 17th, 2005, 11:42 pm
This was my initial thought as well, but then again Smith is a ridiculously common surname. Zacharias Smith is rather pompous, though, so you'd think he'd be crowing about something like this. At the same time, he really wasn't around much in HBP, so if they are related it may not be that important.

I think you make a great point about Zacharias bragging about it if he was the descendent. But I think there is a possibility of him being a descendent, considering that he is pompous. From the memory, Hepzibah Smith seemed the same way, considering she loved showing off her heirloom. I know this isn't a lot to go by, but I think Zacharias probably doesn't know he's descended from Helga. After all, the proof he was, the cup, was stolen, and she was murdered a few days afterward. Maybe the rest of the family wasn't keen on letting people know their heritage after that.

Deltron
July 17th, 2005, 11:46 pm
Does anyone remember his Patronous(sp?) from the DA?

NYCwitch920
July 17th, 2005, 11:47 pm
This was my initial thought as well, but then again Smith is a ridiculously common surname. Zacharias Smith is rather pompous, though, so you'd think he'd be crowing about something like this. At the same time, he really wasn't around much in HBP, so if they are related it may not be that important.

It's interesting that you mention his pompous attitude. I don't know if many of you remember but after Dumbledore's death, Zacharias was taken away from school by one of his family members who looked very "haughty" according to Harry. That adds to this whole thing about Zacharias and his family thinking themselves to be better than others. It would support this whole thing about him belonging to the Hufflepuff family...
Although I do agree that Smith is a very common name, why, after the Mark Evans fiasco would she make Hepzibah have the same last name as a Hufflepuff student? Hopefully this isn't another Mark Evans!! :scared:

scouse_7
July 17th, 2005, 11:49 pm
Definitely I think that he is related,I thought this exactly when the women had mentioned that she was a descendant of Helgar.He has got to be a descendant.Even thought Harry doesn't really like him(if I remember well)is there any way Zacharias could help him find the Horcrux?I say this even thought i believe Harry has to act on his own accord from now on,but still could use a bit of help on his way aslong as Zacharias provided!

TnK
July 18th, 2005, 12:26 am
Ha! I didn't even THINK of this. Now though, I feel that I'm incredibly stupid having not caught that.

Tela
July 18th, 2005, 1:40 am
This is a really good theory. I would be suprised if we don't see this in book 7. Harry is going to need help to gather all of the Horcruxes. It would be something if he has to go to Zacharias Smith for help.

PHelf
July 18th, 2005, 1:43 am
finally some one notices something about smith hes been mentioned too many times for my liking in both books 4 and 5

silveryouko
July 18th, 2005, 3:41 am
Smith is a common name, but I too thought that he could have been a descendant when I read that chapter. JKR doesn't mention people in her book if they're not going to come back later and play a larger role, especially as many times as she mentioned Smith in all of his annoying glory.

I could see Harry needing him to get a Horcrux and Smith being completely uncooperative

BellatrixLeNo
July 18th, 2005, 3:43 am
I was wondering is she wasn't that Fat lady from the portrait because she was fat and wearing a pink dress.

NYCwitch920
July 18th, 2005, 3:51 am
I could see Harry needing him to get a Horcrux and Smith being completely uncooperative

Smith doesn't have the horcrux though. It was stolen by Voldemort as described in that chapter. However, it'll be interesting to see if he can help Harry in any way. (If he is indeed related to Hufflepuff)

AmeliaPotter
July 18th, 2005, 3:59 am
I'm pretty sure that Zacharias is related to Hepizebah, but it could be a coincidence like Mark Evans. Smith is a very common name, but inthis case I think you are correct that he is a descendant.

Taleeya
July 18th, 2005, 5:07 am
Smith doesn't have the horcrux though. It was stolen by Voldemort as described in that chapter. However, it'll be interesting to see if he can help Harry in any way. (If he is indeed related to Hufflepuff)

I agree, just because it was his family's heirloom, it doesn't mean he has it now. (and it is very likely that the heirloom is the goblet). If the family knows they are Hufflepuff descendants tho, wouldn't Zacharias be the type to go bragging about it?

Dumbledorefan
July 18th, 2005, 6:00 am
Yes, I also think that old Zack was related to Hepzibah and Helga.

GryffondorGrl
July 18th, 2005, 6:04 am
That's exactly what I thought when I read it! Both times, I mean it makes sense. I couldn't see Smith having a big role, but I bet it'll be mentioned...probably when Harry's destroying the Hufflepuff Horcrux!

Lady_MacBeth
July 18th, 2005, 6:06 am
I thought of that too! It make sense, JKR wouldn't let another Mark Evans be born.

HBPrincess
July 18th, 2005, 6:39 am
Yes I also thought that Zacharias could be related to H.Hufflepuff when Hepzibah was mentioned.

slavetopadfoot
July 18th, 2005, 7:08 am
someone on the forums somewhere (sorry, it was a few hours ago) said that in the canadian version hepzibah decends from helga and zacharias is related to hepzibah. there you go.

Taleeya
July 18th, 2005, 8:05 am
someone on the forums somewhere (sorry, it was a few hours ago) said that in the canadian version hepzibah decends from helga and zacharias is related to hepzibah. there you go.
There is no mention of Zacharias and Hepzibah are related.

slavetopadfoot
July 18th, 2005, 8:59 am
woops sorry. you're right. i found that post, and it was speculation.

however, i think the shared surname of "smith" is significant.

jkr said she learned from her mark evans mistake, so i don't think she would give both of them the surname smith if it weren't important.

Katie1221
July 18th, 2005, 10:18 am
I'm so glad someone other than myself thought about this! I thought I was grasping at straws. In my mind, I thought Hepzipah and Zacharias's names looked/sounded similar, and then there's the shared surname and the Hufflepuff connection. I hope Zacharias is connected, because it seems like it's going to be really hard for Harry to aquire all the Horcruxes. A former D.A. member (albeit one he doesn't like) having one of them would help Harry immensely.

tarachristwen
July 18th, 2005, 2:25 pm
probably he is distantly related and he is in the hufflepuff house too...

PotterPirate
July 18th, 2005, 2:31 pm
Yeah, my first thought when I was reading that memory was of Zacharias Smith. It could be that this is a crucial part of the book. As Zacharias hasn't really done anything of importance so far.

FawkesBox
July 18th, 2005, 3:13 pm
I thinks its pretty clear he is. Look at Amelia ( :( ) and Susan Bones!! The only exception would be the infamous Mark Evans.

7th_Letter
July 18th, 2005, 3:17 pm
this could weel be true

popping corn
July 18th, 2005, 3:26 pm
wow never thought of it- but it is possible and quite likley.
it really would be a shame if it turned out to be a mark evans.

cookie654
July 18th, 2005, 3:30 pm
I was thinking about that too it's a 50/50 chance he might be

Windinherhair
July 18th, 2005, 3:31 pm
In the real world, Smith is, yes, a ridiculously common surname.. But, in the world of Harry Potter, a place where strange surnames are abound, there seem to be no coincidences. We know JKR likes to find strange, silly names to use for her characters, so why would she dampen this opportunity to be creative by just using the name 'Smith'? I thought of this, too, when I read the book. It would make sense.

fenestra
July 19th, 2005, 12:44 am
AHH! PHOOEY! I wanted to start this thread! Oh well you snooze you loose...

Yes. The instant I saw Hebzibah Smith's name I wondered... Zacharias... but at first I was doubtful because Smith is a very common name (though we only know one in Potterverse...) and I had to check that Zacharias was indeed Hufflepuff... and he is so there we go... Originally posted by BellatrixLeNo
I was wondering is she wasn't that Fat lady from the portrait because she was fat and wearing a pink dress. I don't really think they would have a picture of a Hufflepuff guarding the Gryffindor common-room and sleeping quarters. Just a thought.

~fenestra

scouse_7
July 19th, 2005, 1:01 am
Whos saying that the Horcrux has to be destroyed by a Hufflepuff descendant only?That would mean Zach would have to be used and this would be an good chapter indead,but hey we know what JK is like and i believe she has already thought about this part already and has produced something nobody could ever guess that would happen!

CatellaAurum
July 19th, 2005, 1:07 am
Yeah I very much think that Zacharias is the descendent of Hufflepuff.

DogStarBlack
July 19th, 2005, 1:14 am
I think it's hard to say, especially since Smith is such a common name. However, the fact that Zacharias is in Hufflepuff makes me think he is descended from Helga herself...I wonder if Zacharias knows it.
~DogStarBlack :)

TerrierMom
July 19th, 2005, 1:18 am
I have my doubts. Helga Hufflepuff seems like she was very kind, humble and sweet from what little we know of her from the books. The ultimate Hufflepuff. Zachariah is such an arrogant prat, that I wonder why he didn't wind up in Slytherin.

gildedmuse
July 19th, 2005, 1:27 am
Ha! I had the same exact thought upon hearing her last name. Zacharias had appeared way more in this book then any of the other minor characters (he even beat out Neville, I think) and then they introduce the heir of Hufflepuff who happen to have the same last name? Please.

Smith might be a common last name, but how common do you think it is in the wizard world? Remember, the population of UK magic folk isn't too large.

So we know one of them for sure (Tom Riddle) there are theories for two (Smith & Potter). Two of those individuals were part of the DA. You don't think she'd include the Ravenclaw heir in the DA as well, do you?

Lady_MacBeth
July 19th, 2005, 5:52 am
The decendents seem to have changed a lot. Inbreeding perhaps.

Slytherin, whatever bad things you can say about him, was very smart and probably noble. Unlike the Gaunts.

Helga seemed very fair and not to hold herself above others, unlike the Smiths (whos names I will not attempt to spell)

mugglemom1970
July 19th, 2005, 8:21 pm
Perhaps he has been told to keep quiet for his own safety? In the thought that if Voldemort ever returned that the descendants could become targets.

gildedmuse-So we know one of them for sure (Tom Riddle) there are theories for two (Smith & Potter). Two of those individuals were part of the DA. You don't think she'd include the Ravenclaw heir in the DA as well, do you?

Perhaps as Ravenclaws are known for their smarts this person is better at keeping it quiet?

Mae
July 19th, 2005, 8:27 pm
good lord, how could i have missed that??? no wonder hes so arrogant...hes a decendant and he probably knows it!

RobertVanGrah
July 19th, 2005, 8:56 pm
So we know she shares the same surname as Zacharias Smith. Zacharias is also in Hufflepuff House. Does that mean he's related to Hepzibah?

Cripes! that was a clever catch! Good work!

Maurven
July 19th, 2005, 9:00 pm
I too am nearly positive that he must be a descendent. I think that his personality belongs in Slytherin rather than Hufflepuff is further proof of his ancestry. There must be SOMETHING that puts him in Hufflepuff. What better than blood? Additionally, I think that the gang will be forced to follow the sorting hat's advice, unite with the other houses, and enlist Smith's aid to find the Hufflepuff Horcrux.

Demented
July 19th, 2005, 9:26 pm
Maybe Zacharias is Hufflepuff's heir ... maybe not. Believe it or not people do share the same last names sometimes. Hogwarts alone has 1000 students (according to JKR) ... would it be to hard to believe that 2 students had the same last name? No. So why is it so hard to believe that he has the same last name as someone who lived about 50 years ago and isn't related.

I'm not sure if I believe he is or isn't the heir, but it's not ridiculous to assume that he's not.

But, more importantly, why does it matter? Voldemort stole the cup from Hepzibah. How would Zacharias have even the slightest idea where it is.

Weasel_king7
July 20th, 2005, 9:17 am
I hope it's true and not another Mark Evans fiasco.

How many times can old Zacharias be a red herring after all? Snape and Draco finally stopped being one.
lol I agree. But what if Jo purposefully put in Mark Evans knowing we would question her about it? Then sneakily she puts in this whole Smith scenario and makes us think it’s a similar thing, because we are all second guessing our actions. I didn’t really pick up on the whole smith surname thing though, but i think it’s a good possibility. It would be so funny if he took a more important role since we have all grown to hate him, is Smith in Hufflepuff?? i think he is from memory.

Emma88
July 21st, 2005, 9:58 am
Hepzibah also mentions that her family would love to get there hands on the cup. It sounds as though she has a large family, which would make it very plausible that she is Zacharias' Great Aunt of similar, and so making him a descendant of Hufflepuff. Also, just to point out that the sorting hat has never been wrong. Perhaps that was the main reason for Zacharias being placed in Hufflepuff?

Tonksaholic
July 21st, 2005, 10:06 am
I noticed this as soon as it was mentioned, and my thoughts instanly turned to a theory i read on here about the heirs of all the founders running around Hogwarts, it made me laugh.

bluebelle
July 21st, 2005, 5:26 pm
Hello - I did do a search and didn't see anything quite the same. But this is my first post so who knows ...

There is a lot of speculation about descendants of the original founders (i.e. Harry is he or isn't he the heir of Gryffindor?) and there has been question marks over how important this was in the books as JK Rowling emphasises over and over again the importance of the individual's own choices.

However, I think that the founders, their history and lineage, will be important because it obviously holds importance for a very central character in the books - Lord Voldemort.

Dumbledore suspected the LV would want to use personal items of the Hogwart founders as Horcruxes because he seems to place a special importance and value on these things. However, he also mentioned (excuse me if i'm wrong as i'm typing from memory without a book at hand) that Voldemort probably created Horcruxes after particularly important murders.

Maybe, Voldemort would place particular importance on murdering the descendants of the founders. Perhaps he would think that the murder of such people would make the magic even more symbolic / powerful.

There may be other reasons to promote such murders as well. Being the proud descendant of Slytherin, perhaps he feels a natural hostility to the descendants of the other founders who opposed Slytherin and (probably in his eyes) forced Slytherin to leave Hogwarts, the place which both he and LV himself appear to love (maybe the wrong word here!)

Perhaps Voldemort would feel a natural threat from such descendants as well. If he places a lot of importance on being descended from Slytherin, it is quite possible that he (as opposed to Dumbledore and his choice theory stuff) might think that magical ability is most strongly determined by the quality of your genes (i.e ancestors).

Maybe he would think that his stature as a wizard would be heightened by being the only living descendant of any of the founders (perhaps this could also be a complex to compensate for him actually being a half-blood).

For any combination of these reasons, although most importantly to create a powerful, meaningful Horcrux, I believe that LV might have deliberately targeted other descendants of the founders.

This brings us to Hepzibah Smith. Is it just a coincidence that we see Tom Riddle using the same flattering techniques towards her that we seem him using with Professor Slughorn. Is he probing again for information (i.e. looking for a powerful magical object to accompany a powerful magical murder). It is quite possible that he is just doing his job well, a good employee.

Even if this is the case, why would talented Lord Voldemort choose to work at Borgin and Burkes ? It seems to me that he was already intent on immortality and the creation of Horcruxes. Having just left Hogwarts, the place to (so far in his life) shape all/most his magical experiences, he was probably also at this point intent on using items from the founders as these were probably the people he revered the most at this stage in his life. It seems likely that he choose to work at B&B to begin looking into antique possessions, history and ancestory.

How does this leave book 7? I think Harry will have to look down some of these same paths that Voldemort traced to have some idea of what Horcruxes to look for and who might have owned / had access to them at the time Voldemort was around. We also might see other descendants springing up who a particularly at risk to be killed.

So which characters could be descendants?
We already know that LV is the last living descendant of Slytherin. We have already seen how he treated his own Uncle, also a Slytherin descendant. By framing him for murder and having him in Azkaban under the dementors is either ruthless cunning to avoid being linked to a murder he would be associated with, or also perhaps a fear of the potential power of other descendants (the uncle being a clear descendant as his Parseltongue showed). Although it is also worth pointing out that he probably was pretty annoyed/had no positive emotional attachment to a man who showed no interest in him and left him to a muggle orphanage.

The name most closely aligned to Hepzibah Smith - descendant of Hufflepuff, is Zacharias Smith. He of course is in Hufflepuff. Interestingly just like with LV he doesn't seem to fit into his house. LV of course isn't a pure blood, Slytherin's prized trait. Zacharias in his turn doesn't seem in the likeness of Helga who is described as such: "she brought people from different walks of life together to help build Hogwarts and was loved for her charming ways" (found on Lexicon). Zacharias hardly seems capable of bringing disparate people together (the DADA, the Hogs Head, etc.) and charming ... not in my eyes. At first glance this seems to be against JKR's choice policy - i.e. that descendants are automatically going into the house of their ancestors (as if genes are the deciding reason). But it could be easily argued that if these people place importance on their ancestory then they choose to follow that line even if deep down they're not going with their true nature. i.e. choosing to be what you are not.

Gryffindor's heir - Harry?. Maybe this would add reason for LV targeting Harry (as opposed to Neville) if Harry was Gryffindor's heir. It would also maybe make the prophecy more interesting to Voldemort (i.e. he might assume it to be some deadly showdown to end the Slytherin and Gryffindor feud) but this is just an interesting thought! I don't know how long it would take to create a Horcrux but it is also worth pointing out that at Godrics Hollow LV obviously had killed James & Lily. If Harry is heir/descendant to Gryffindor, then one of these must also have been a descendant. Could a Horcrux have been created (or two even) from these deaths. i.e. what might Harry potentially uncover from his trip to Godric's Hollow? Are other people targeting Godric's Hollow too (Death EAters? LV himself?)

However, the real interest for me is Ravenclaw. For a start we know that LV was probably targeting an item from Ravenclaw - and Dumbledore doesn't know as much about her possessions as Gryffindor's. He is basically uncertain, which is worrying. Secondly, I believe in one of these post-interviews, JKR said that Ravenclaws would come into their own in book 7. Which leads to the last point: about time too!! In my opinion, Ravenclaw is the least written about in the books. ALthough not out of keeping with the other founders, we know almost nothing about Ravenclaw (and at this stage probably less than all the others). What do we know about the Grey Lady ghost. We've never been properly introduced, overheard conversation. Where are the amazing, stand-out students? Ravenclaws are the most intelligent, and while Hermione might have a lot to do with this, there are no stand out characters. Gryffindor seem to spend the least class time with Ravenclaws (do they have any?) obviously we see Slytherins and Gryffindors team up in potions and Care for Magical Creatures. Hufflepuffs and Gryffindors teamed up in Herbology. Even now there are completely mixed classes in NEWTS we still don't see much of Ravenclaws. Obviously there is Cho Chang (who I doubt is in the books for her intelligence or strength of personality!) Maria Edgecombe, Penelope Clearwater, Padma Patil, Terry Boot, Michael Corner, Antony Goldstein, Roger Davies. BUt none of these seem stand-out characters, more like fillers.

Luna Lovegood is really the only Ravenclaw who we have any attachment to. I don't know if she's typically Ravenclaw because common-sense and pratical cleverness are sometimes quite different to academic intelligence. But I doubt it's her.

Perhaps the best way to look out for potential descendants and potential links to Horcruxes is to go back to the idea that LV might particularly target these descendants - i.e. we may have already seen their family member being taken out.

This might strengthen the idea of the Weasley's being descended from Gryffindor. Give extra reason for the all being on mortal peril on Mrs Weasley's clock. Maybe why Mrs Weasley's brothers were taken out (although I personally doubt it). We also have Amelia Bones and Susan Bones.

However, it's hard to know how many of these deaths are only direct consequences of the victims being Order Members. We seeing events through Harry's eyes aren't sure of the entire Order membership. Snape on the other hand might know of more people being in the Order. Alternatively there may be miscellaneous reasons for killings so far. But it is worth going back perhaps to find potential clues.

I don't know if i've said anything particularly new, but any thoughts would be great. Cheers, louise

cakesoccer
July 21st, 2005, 5:38 pm
This is a really interesting theory. It makes sense and goes with the pattern that Voldemort created horcruxes after particularly important deaths. I'm not sure if it's true, but it would make sense that Harry, if he is the heir of Gryffindor, would be an important death. Having already killed the heir of Hufflepuff, working on the maybe heir of Gryffindor, and being the heir of Slytherin himself, it leaves Ravenclaw. It would be interesting to find out who was the heir of Ravenclaw; imagine if it was Luna! Though we know Jo puts much emphasis on choice, she also recognizes that to some people, their ancestry is very important and choose to follow that path (like Voldie). Anyways, good job!

zoozoo
July 21st, 2005, 5:43 pm
ask a question ; this whole harry being the heir of gryffindor thing, is it just a hunch or have i missed something in the text? i've heard this a few times, and i don't get where its coming from.

as for ravenclaw, i think they did get their glory, well a bt of it anyway. Luna was there in the MoM and then in the final battle of HBP. she's the only one there that's not a gryffindor. she helps fight the DEs on both occasions.

darkflame626
July 21st, 2005, 5:48 pm
A wonderful theory. And Luna being the descendant would also be interesting seeing as how so many people just wrote her off as being crazy. I hope she is. I wonder what the Ravenclaw, heirloom would be. I hope Voldemort, hasn't gotten to it yet, or figured it out.

RavenEye
July 21st, 2005, 5:58 pm
If Luna is the descendent of Ravenclaw, her mother's death has got to be suspicious. Was it really a cauldron accident caused by experimentation?

Ixidor
July 21st, 2005, 11:28 pm
Seeing as my thread got closed I guess I'll post my theory here.

I just wanted to hear everyone's theory about whats going to happen in the next book, as far as Voldemort, Harry, and just about anything else that deals with the general plotline goes.

My theory seems even a little far-fetched even to me. =P Here goes:

Suppose Hepizbah Smith (From one of the memories DD showed Harry) is related to Zacharias Smith. Hepizbah says that she is distantly related to Helga Hufflepuff and that Hufflepuff's goblet has been handed down through her family and finally to her. Now, if Zachirias were related to Hepizbah, and assuming Hepizbah was telling the truth, it stands that Zacharias Smith is related to Helga Hufflepuff also. I think Harry finds out in Godric's Hollow that he is related to Gryffindor, (or else he probably wouldn't have been able to pull Godric's sword out of the sorting hat), The sorting hat has also been saying that in order to triumph over LV, the school has to band together. Now, say that the descendants of Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, and Gryffindor have to play some role in destroying voldemort by banding together ........

iheartduckies
July 21st, 2005, 11:34 pm
wow good catch...that would be interesting but i wonder if we would ever really find out or if JKR would just mention it on her website or something (kinda like the way she told us about Dean Thomas' dad and that he is really a half blood)...otherwise i wonder if it would be of any importance to the plot? probably not but it could be who knows?

Ixidor
July 22nd, 2005, 12:22 am
Never thought about Luna, but I guess that would make sense as her purpose to the plot hasn't really been revealed even though she is a very big character

bluebelle
July 22nd, 2005, 10:45 am
Um .... I'm not sure what to make of Luna. At first she didn't seem that important, more like a filler character for comic relief or an outlet/prompt for Harry to contemplate his own emotions. However, she has been in and out of all of the last three books. The little starter hint in GOF. Then she really came in during the next book, and while playing a big part and developing into a great character, I completely agree with Ixidor, it wasn't absolutely clear why she HAD to be there to advance the plot. Couldn't the book still have worked without Luna? By that I mean, not that she didn't do some important interesting stuff, but why did it have to be her character specifically that did it - why not a more established character. It seemed to imply (to me at least) that JKR gave a relative unknown character a lot of page time to develop as a character, for us to get to know them. Maybe this was for an arbitary reason, i.e. just that she likes Luna as a character. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of revelation related to Luna or her family. It certainly is an interesting point about her mother's death. It would be interesting to know whether Luna actually saw her mother dying, or just the body (especially if we are going to theorise on if Voldemort was involved).

Luna does have a few things going for her. Her mother seemed like a very talented witch (as Luna herself has said) which would be a Ravenclaw trait. Furthermore, I believe that her mother was an inventor, which definitely seems to be in the footsteps of Rowena Ravenclaw who designed the floor plan of Hogwarts with all the moving stairs etc. Rowena is also remembered for her "creativity" which both Luna and her parents seem to have in buckets (Quibbler anyone ...)

Also Luna doesn't get rattled. It could be argued that she is calmly wise (maybe in a Dumbledore kind of way) not letting her emotions overcome her in dangerous situations but keeping a clear perspective - an old head on young shoulders. Luna has a very unique emotional / psychological set-up. But I have the feeling that her dreamy unconventionalness and the impression she gives of being a bit disconnected to what's going on around her (i.e. in a world of her own) leads to an underestimation of how clever she is and how events are affecting her emotions too. She seems to see and express things in a different way, the other characters don't seem to really understand her well, so probably don't appreciate her talents as much as she deserves (as has happened with a lot of the greatest minds in history!)

Another point is that Luna does show great courage at various stages (although she hardly shows any fear at all so it's hard to know if this is really courage). SHe also seems quite Hufflepuffish in her regard to other students, she certainly seems to treat everyone equally and doesn't really go into House rivally as her Gryffindor hat shows. AFter all in the Quidditch this book it was really between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw - a hardcore Ravenclaw loyalist may not have been supporting Gryffindor quite to overtly. The point here though, is perhaps she is a truly great Ravenclaw to make it into Ravenclaw when she seems to also have virtues which would endear her to other houses. If this is the case I would expect her intelligence far outstrips her other virtues, or perhaps she just value intelligence and wisdom the most, and chose to follow that path.


On the other hand, I just somehow don't get the feeling the Luna is quite right. I have always pictured Rowena in my head as quite savvy and astute which I don't get from Luna. I can't help thinking that her role might still be more minor, but it's interesting to think it over ...

Sorry this has been a bit long, I got side-tracked on Luna but I do have another post more related to my original post which i'll type when I get time.

Venus_77
July 22nd, 2005, 11:44 am
Well that's clever! And very convenient! This is how Smith will return to 'the good side'. By being angry at Voldemort for using their heirlooms for a bad cause. Zacharias Smith isan't excatly evil, just annoying. Do you think he's bad enough to be a Dark Wizard?

claret101
July 22nd, 2005, 11:46 am
No, I've never seen anything to suggest he's a DE. Being a bit annoying doesn't make you evil.

bluebelle
July 22nd, 2005, 12:23 pm
Back to the original thought. My original post was really asking the question:

Where might Voldemort have looked for items (to be turned into Horcruxes) which belonged once to the original founders?

Presumably the people you'd expect to have such items or maybe know about them, would be the descendants of the founders, who might have such heirlooms or alternatively would probably know a lot about their own family history.

Consequentially, if we, or Harry, could trace the original descendants that is a possible starting point to understand what objects Voldemort may have obtained (i.e. what objects were used for Horcruxes). Alternatively of course, Harry may obtain information about Horcruxes through people in the know, although considering that Voldemort seems particularly secretive about his Horcruxes, it is doubtful that there is a lot of information in the open. I think rather there will have to be a certain amount of deduction to find these Horcrux items, both in terms of what items to look for and where to find them.

If the way to find out the history of the founders and their possessions is through their descendants (as oppose to looking in books at the library etc.) then we might see Harry teaming up with some different people - a.k.a Zacharias Smith.

I just get the feeling that Voldemort goes in for the powerful symbolism (7 magical number, possessions of the founders) and he might have thought a powerful, symbolic Horcrux would be:

An item of a Hogwarts founder
Based on the murder of one of their descendants
Placed in a location connected to the founder

For example, why have we heard on a couple of occasions about where the founders come from: glen, valley, fen and moor (I think!). Why is this important in the slightest. There are a lot of other things which are surely more important to say about their lives. Maybe this piece of information will have a use in book 7 when looking for where these Horcruxes might be. Plus with Harry not going back to Hogwarts, he'll definitely have the opportunity to move around more.

I don't have the book but a very interesting page for me is in the chapter 'a sluggish memory' after they have exited the first memory of Voldemort meeting his uncle. Dumbledore says that having retrieved the memory he was in the process of clearing the uncle's name but unfortunately the uncle died just after before he could manage it. Doesn't this seem a little coincidental? That he happened to die, just as someone was about to prove his innocence and obtain his freedom?

My guess (JKR's a mix of so much subtelty and redherrings it's hard to be anything more than a guess as this stage) is that Voldemort killed him. However, this is a definite 'if' because even though Voldemort is the only real person I can think of who would have anything to gain from killing him, it still wouldn't necessarily mean he would do it himself. Plus Dumbledore stated that he believes Riddle didn't kill anyone between the Riddles and Hepzibah. This means we're looking at sometime after Hepzibah and before the Potters. Afterall, by the time Harry is in the wizarding world Voldemort is the last descendant of Slytherin, meaning Morphin is already dead. The other importance of this timing is that it would have to be a bit later (i.e. beyond Hepzibah's death) to involve our R.A.B - (Regulus Black). Voldemort is considerably older than Regulus so this death would have had to happen a little later.

However, if we go with the theory. Voldemort kills his Uncle, second last descendant of Slytherin, creates a Horcrux through that murder using Slytherin's item - the locket, and then leaves it in a cave. Alright, so a cave hardly points definitively to the fens, but the fens is a a watery place stretching up to the North Norfolk Coast which has caves. Admitedly the coincidence here would be that Tom Riddle was taken on an orphanage trip to the homeplace of his ancestor, but it's hardly beyond the realms of possiblity as the Norfolk Coast is a popular holiday destination in the South.

If this whole complex stuff holds true there could possibly be another parallel - Zacharias Smith might be the last in the Hufflepuff line after Hepzibah, Luna could be last in Ravenclaw after her mother, Harry could be the last after his father ?? Not necessarily these people, but you get what i'm saying, that whoever is left could be in the same position as Voldemort, the last in the line. I'm pretty sure this point is utter rubbish, but it's worth mentioning.

I have one final question which is fairly unrelated to the above.
If we assume that the horcruxes run as follows:
1) Ring - Riddles murdered
2) Diary ? - Moaning Myrtle ???
3) Cup - Hepzibah Smith
4) Locket - Morphin
5) Ravenclaw item - Ravenclaw descendant
6) Gryffindor item - Gryffindor descendant
7) Nagini - ordinary muggle.

It's quite a mix for a start! A couple of them are pure-blood muggles which makes for a mixed blood collection for a start! But the question I have is the Diary. Who did he kill for the Diary? He didn't actually kill Myrtle - the Snake did, does it matter that he directed it? He's still not the person who made the direct action. Plus Dumbledore seemed to think that there were no murders between the Riddles and Hepzibah. So the Diary must have actually come much later on. I'm a little puzzled on when he made it and who he killed.

A further point to zoozoo, I'm not sure whether Harry is a Grffindor heir. In fact I'm pretty much not sure on any of this, given JKR's style it is always hard to go beyond speculation. However, I thought it might kick up some intersting discussion points.
I believe that people think Harry could be because of stuff like: shooting red and gold sparks out of his wand, parent's living in Godrics Hollow, pulling out Gryffindor's sword out of the hat, etc. etc. It's so hard with JKR to draw any firm conclusions. She is subtle and has many red herrings. So like with most theories, I guess it's your call whether you feel any resonance with this evidence or believe it to be circumstantial / fulfilling another purpose in the books.

The last point I want to make is that I still think that going back and reviewing all of the deaths mentioned could be useful(particularly the one's mentioned just in passing such as when Mad-eye was showing Harry the picture of the original order). I don't think that Voldemort (unlike some of his more psycopathic followers) kills just for the heck of it. I think it's mostly a calculated act for him - especially given how much he seems to scorn emotion and feeling. I think that anyone Voldemort has killed was strategically important to his plans.

ANyway, really, enough for now ...

SquibOnline
July 22nd, 2005, 12:49 pm
Could be, but I wouldn't put a bet on it

Tawy
July 22nd, 2005, 8:48 pm
I have one final question which is fairly unrelated to the above.
If we assume that the horcruxes run as follows:
1) Ring - Riddles murdered
2) Diary ? - Moaning Myrtle ???
3) Cup - Hepzibah Smith
4) Locket - Morphin
5) Ravenclaw item - Ravenclaw descendant
6) Gryffindor item - Gryffindor descendant
7) Nagini - ordinary muggle.

Just wanted to say that you got one Horcrux too much in there =P There are 6 horcruxes and the 7th part of his soul is in his body :o

Emmadesheres
July 22nd, 2005, 9:44 pm
I read things like that:

1) Peverell's Ring - Riddles
2) Heir of Slytherin's Diary - (Moaning Myrtle) ???
3) Hufflepuff's Cup - Hepzibah Smith
4) Slytherin's Locket - Morfin (clever guess, bluebelle)

We have problems for the others:
5) Ravenclaw item - Ravenclaw descendant
6) Gryffindor item - Gryffindor descendant (Harry Potter)

or

5) Ravenclaw item - Ravenclaw descendant / 5) Gryffindor item - Gryffindor descendant (not Harry Potter)
6) ??? - The One (Harry Potter who is not a descendant of a founder)


But the last murder failed, so, thirteen years later:
6) Heir of Slytherin's Pet (Nagini) - ordinary muggle. (I think Lord Thingy wants to change this one because it isn't class at all, but I don't know if it's possible)

And finally,
7) Lord Voldemort--Vapormort--Ugly Baby--Lord Thingy--You-Know-Who--Tom Marvolo Riddle--etc.

A theory is that Harry himself or just his scar could be a Horcrux, but I don't think it's very likely (Harry would have to destroy himself before killing Voldemort, wouldn't he?)

elbuffo
July 22nd, 2005, 9:49 pm
on the thought of the horcruxes, what could be the one from ravenclaw or gryfindor. could it be a tiara

The potions book is in there now. So Harry can get back in. Interesting that Mrs. Weasley mentions a family heirloom tiara and Harry just happened to put one on the statue to mark where the potions book is... I thought a tiara seemed notable in both of those instances....

mrs weasly says they might persuade her gradmother. we don't know her ancestry or her maiden name. could this be one of the horcruxes. maybe voldy had the horcruxe and wanted to hide it under dd's nose. he would be paceing thinking i need a place to hide this and opens the room of requirment.

please post your thoughts to my theorie.

qoute from Runnels

Emmadesheres
July 22nd, 2005, 10:05 pm
we don't know her ancestry or her maiden name.
JKR said on her site that Molly's maiden name was Prewett, and that she was the sister of the Prewetts brothers who were murdered in the first war.

Yes, the mysterious item could be the tiara. But it would be Ravenclaw's, cause only women have tiaras (I can't imagine Godric Gryffindor with a tiara, why not Snape with a vulture-hat?). We don't know if the Prewetts (Molly and her brothers Gideon and Fabian) were Gryffindors or Ravenclawes (is that correct?), but I'd rather have Luna as the Heir of Ravenclaw (so the tiara would be the one in the Room of Requirement).

I wonder what was the item for Harry's murder.

Mama_Molly
July 22nd, 2005, 10:16 pm
:rotfl: Maybe it's Luna's cork bottle necklace!

afterblue
July 22nd, 2005, 10:20 pm
I keep thinking of Zach's haughty looking dad and Zach who is himself kinda....proud. Haughty because they are direct descendants of a founder of Hogwarts, or just haughty.

Mama_Molly
July 22nd, 2005, 10:23 pm
Haughty is often an act of self preservation . . .

Pureblue
July 22nd, 2005, 10:39 pm
ok...

1. Ring-Tom Riddle Sr.-Destroyed
2. Tom Riddle Jr.'s Diary-Moaning Myrtle-Destroyed (he was in his sixth year when he released the basilisk, and he was in sixth year when he asked Slughorn about the horcrux!)
3. Salazar Slytherin's Locket-Morphin Gaunt-Possibly at the Black House (R.A.B=Regulus A. Black?)
4. Helga Hufflepuff's Goblet-Hepzibah Smith-Possibly with Zacharias Smith, Possibly Hidden
5. Something of Rowena Ravenclaw's (tiara?)-Major Death before Potters (can anyone check HBP?)
6. Nagini-Ordinary Muggle-With Voldemort himself
7. Voldemort

So that's what we know. Can someone check OotP to see what Zacharias Smith's Patronus was and to see if anyone conjured a Raven or something Similar? Oh, and it can't be something of Gryffindor's because the Sword is at Hogwarts. Or at least it is most unlikely

Aliabes
July 22nd, 2005, 10:42 pm
I doubt very much Zacharias is another Mark Evans. ME was mentionned only once, whereas Smithy gets loads of screen time. Not to mention JK's nightmares must be haunted by the infamous Mark, and she must still fear retaliation by angry fans :D

afterblue
July 22nd, 2005, 10:46 pm
First let me point out one inconsistency in the sorting hat methodology. In the first songs, Hufflepuffs were said to be loyal and true and, humble and hardworking? But by the last song, Helga was the one who took all those who didn't get picked by the other three founders. So, I am not entirely sure what the hufflepuff qualities are. Sure, DD says that Cedric epitomized the best qualities of Hufflepuff and he was very humble, but aren't some people better examples of their house qualities than others? Is Cho really the epitome of intellect, is Neville the epitome of daring? (He is brave yes, but daring?). Conversely is the smartest person in the school a ravenclaw?

And why single out Zach? Think of Ernie who is pompous (can you be pompous *and humble?) and can trace his pureblood family up nine generations of wizards and witches? Think of Justin who made it a point to mention his name was down for Eton (perhaps the most prestigious muggle school in the Isles). Think of Hepzibah herself, who hardly seems humble herself. Nice enough, bessotted, but not humble.

If Hepzibah was not humble, why should her descendant? The Gaunts were not exactly ambitious even if they were obsessed with pureblood nonsense and could speak parceltongue. Personality is not entirely genetic. Thus, I won't let Zach's haughtiness keep me from considering him as a descendent of the sweet and accepting Helga. He was not the snitch in OOP which shows he has some sense of loyalty, and he may well be very hardworking, and if anything, if he is a direct descendent of Helga, a founder of the school that is possibly reason for his arrogance.

papos_rane
July 22nd, 2005, 11:52 pm
wow..i never thought of that ..good theory,very possible,now maybe zacharias has a reason to be nice to potter cuz hes gunna get the cup back,but then destroy it lol,which will make him hate harry even more..i wonder if he knows about the cup? or if hes related?

VicarBook
July 23rd, 2005, 12:22 am
Woah that is an amazing connection. I'm sold (no sarcasm here either). I mean, I wouldn't doubt it a bit. I personally get the feeling that the founder of that line was apparently hmm more prolific at producing heirs. That feeling could be from her focus on being essentially a believer in the strength of family (what better way that having a direct family in addition to the take 'em all attitude of the House).

Vicar Book

pyromaniac
July 23rd, 2005, 12:23 am
Might be. Very interesting

papos_rane
July 23rd, 2005, 12:50 am
ok...

1. Ring-Tom Riddle Sr.-Destroyed
2. Tom Riddle Jr.'s Diary-Moaning Myrtle-Destroyed (he was in his sixth year when he released the basilisk, and he was in sixth year when he asked Slughorn about the horcrux!)
3. Salazar Slytherin's Locket-Morphin Gaunt-Possibly at the Black House (R.A.B=Regulus A. Black?)
4. Helga Hufflepuff's Goblet-Hepzibah Smith-Possibly with Zacharias Smith, Possibly Hidden
5. Something of Rowena Ravenclaw's (tiara?)-Major Death before Potters (can anyone check HBP?)
6. Nagini-Ordinary Muggle-With Voldemort himself
7. Voldemort

So that's what we know. Can someone check OotP to see what Zacharias Smith's Patronus was and to see if anyone conjured a Raven or something Similar? Oh, and it can't be something of Gryffindor's because the Sword is at Hogwarts. Or at least it is most unlikely


but zacharias DOES NOT HAVE THE CUP ! WHY WOULD VOLDEMORT STEAL IT AND PUT A PIECE OF HIS SOUL IN IT,AND RETURN IT?? uhmm no. he still has it somewhere

XRadianceX
July 23rd, 2005, 12:51 am
I think that this is a rather clever Theory! I dont have too strong of an inclination to believe it though, to me it just doesnt seem right. But it would make sense. I believe that Zacharias Smith is going to play more of an important role than we all suspect, but a direct descendant of Hufflepuff? hmm...

...

:)

akat123
July 23rd, 2005, 12:56 am
It's definitely a possibility, but Smith is a pretty common surname.

Pureblue
July 23rd, 2005, 2:48 am
It's definitely a possibility, but Smith is a pretty common surname.
but remember the wizarding population is nowhere near the muggle population in size. we cannot say for fact that smith is a common surname in the wizarding world

_hello_kitty_
July 23rd, 2005, 3:09 am
I think he's a descendant...even though I'd like to see him get some brain damage from a bludger...

ChoRadcliffe
July 24th, 2005, 1:11 am
I posted the same topic before thoroughly searching to see if a similar topic existed. But I did think of Zacharias when reading that part of the book and now I do think he will help Harry (reluctantly, but all the same) find the Hufflepuff Horcrux. Or he might even have the cup.

NYCwitch920
July 24th, 2005, 1:44 am
I posted the same topic before thoroughly searching to see if a similar topic existed. But I did think of Zacharias when reading that part of the book and now I do think he will help Harry (reluctantly, but all the same) find the Hufflepuff Horcrux. Or he might even have the cup.

Zacharias won't have the horcrux though because Tom Riddle took it away after he killed Hepzibah, remember? However, it's interesting how he's mentioned more than usual in this book. He was quidditch commentator...was mentioned at the end of the book being taken home by a very "haughty"-looking family member, etc. He's been mentioned in a couple of books now. While this may not seem unusual for any minor character...I still wonder about him, especially since he was mentioned in the end of Book 6. Well...we'll see. Hopefully Jo might see this thread or be asked this question by someone else later on and maybe we'll get a clue as to whether there is any connection between Zacharias and Hepzibah.

aaron016
July 24th, 2005, 1:55 am
Wow, I'm surprised I didn't think of that! That's a really good theory, and it would also help Harry find the other Horcrux. But then again, maybe this is just Mark Evans all over again and it's a coincidence that they have the same surname.

CSI_Student
July 24th, 2005, 1:59 am
It's an interesting theory, but I'd be much more inclined to have faith in it a less common name was used rather than Smith. If she was planting deliberate clues, little, tiny, deep, deep clues, I still think she would use a name that is less common than Smith. After the whole Mark Evans thing, I'm a little skeptical.

pinkTONKS01
July 24th, 2005, 2:02 am
Wow...

I'd never given thought to Zacharias Smith's lineage! That would make perfect sense. I feel that he may have a part in Book 7, Rowling wouldn't give a second mention to him if he wasn't important...

am3lia
July 24th, 2005, 2:06 am
It could be possible. But I doubt he would have anything to do with getting Hufflepuff's cup, or with the storyline. I just dont think it would be very important.

pinkTONKS01
July 24th, 2005, 11:51 pm
I've seen alot of people say that Zacharias Smith is another Mark Evans. I tend to disagree. Mark Evans appeared once, am I correct. A name in passing. Zacharias's name has been repeated, speaking parts have been given. I truly think that he has some importance. I don't think that he's weilding the Teacup Horcrux...that's for sure. There's no way that Voldermort would put his soul in it and hand it RIGHT back over to the descendants of Hufflepuff to have their afternoon tea in! I do think he can give clues to where it MIGHT be...maybe his mother or father could give that information. I doubt Zacharias Smith is knowlegable of its location! That's giving him too much credit...

7th_Horcrux
July 24th, 2005, 11:58 pm
I just think they must be related - the names are deliberately un-English names, they both have a 'z' in them (how many common names do?) and we have three options here:

1. JKR accidentally gave two characters the name 'Smith' - very unlikely after Mark Evans, doubly so when you consider that the first names are unusual ones.

2. They are related - for me, the most likely (especially given that Zacharias is in Hufflepuff), and definitely something that JKR thinks that we will assume rather than simply postulate. This doesn't necessarily mean that they will be important to the plot but we all seem to reckon they have a role to play, as his name keeps coming up.

3. It's a deliberate red herring - possible, but using some logic: why the red herring if either of the two have nothing important to do with the plot? The only way that one of them could be important to the plot would be if both were to be important to the plot, and if they are important, this negates the possibility of a red herring.

Greeney
July 25th, 2005, 12:02 am
1. Lily has the same maiden name as Dudley's friend, doesn't mean anything.
2. I've never heard of anyone named Hepzibah and I know a lot of Jewish and Hebrew speaking people.
3. Smith is a common surname.

Wimsey
July 25th, 2005, 12:27 am
Given how small the wizard population is, it is entirely probable.


Here is a more important point. We know of two descendants of Hogwarts founders, one with surname Gaunt and the other with surname Smith.

"Gaunt" is a description of someone pale, cold and sickly looking. An extreme description of someone with these features is "reptilian."

A smith is perhaps the epitome of someone who is extremely industrious and yet is fairly common.

Both of these, coindentally, typify aspects of the families' Hogwarts-founding forebearers.


For greater amusement, consider two more surnames: Potter and Wright. Both dwelt at Godric's Hollow. One of the St. Godric's was the patron saint of craftsmen and merchants, which include things like potters and wrights.....

Now, somehow the Leaky-Cauldron concluded that Harry could not be descended from Gryffindor given the fact that Voldemort did not kill the senior Potters, which JKR did not contradict. However, this conclusion was completely invalid: I do not see how "If descendant of Gryffindor, then Voldemort would kill them" must be true, and the logic requires that premise.

And, the surname thing could be just a big coincidence.....


If not, then look for any descendant families of Ravenclaw to have surnames reflecting characteristics of the founder or something associated with the founder. Hmmm, do Ravens have any general properties?

Credo Buffa
July 25th, 2005, 12:32 am
It's a good catch, noting the Hebrew names, especially. . . but I feel like it's a theory that doesn't really go anywhere to really add to the story. So Zacharias Smith might be a descendent of Hufflepuff; so what? Harry gives the cup back to Zacharias once the horcrux is destroyed? Even if it's true, it hardly seems revealing or necessary to the plot at all.

Lovely_Luna
July 25th, 2005, 12:34 am
I had the exact same though when I read that part of HBP, and I reckon there is more to ol' Zac than what meets the eye!

I wonder what relevance this could have in relation to all the Horcruxes..

megsykins
July 25th, 2005, 2:07 am
Firstly, I also spotted the Smith link, although it is a common name. One thing I'm unsure of is can you touch a Horcrux? (they picked up the locket in Grimmauld Place). Hepizah Smith was very rich and is it possible that her family would have been prepared to pay a lot of money for the return of the cup after it had been stolen? Maybe the Horcrux is back in the Smith family? Zacharius could be the one to take us there. (and he's definatly not evil - a prat perhaps, but he was in the DA, despite his initial doubts)

JKR said on her site that Molly's maiden name was Prewett, and that she was the sister of the Prewetts brothers who were murdered in the first war.
OK, going by the theory about the Weasleys (in particular Ginny) being Gryfinndor heirs, could the Gryffindor descendent who was killed for the 5th horcrux be Molly's brother(s)?
Does that make sense to anyone but me? :blush:
(Also, does anyone else think it strange that Ron has never mentioned the fact that he lost uncles in VoldWarI? Even if he didn't know them, he'd know of them - he knows about the 3rd-cousin accountant)

CaesarSalad
July 28th, 2005, 4:28 am
Wow. I missed that. Seems quite possible to me! I never paid much attention to the little piece of garbage. He annoyed me in ways my little brother can. But, yes! I love theories that make sense!

Ieyre
July 28th, 2005, 4:42 am
I didn't think of this--interesting! Though I really can't see what roll he would play, if any...

theotherhalf
July 28th, 2005, 5:36 am
I definitely think they are related. And I think Harry will have to bite his tongue and make nice in order to enlist the help of Zacharias...and though if anyone would have a better chance of finding the cup it would be the descendant of Helga Hufflepuff, I really don't think he'll be that much help. But he'll play a role.

Another hint that he's important. He, like Regulus Black, at first seemed like an unimportant throwaway character...but they are both mentioned prominently in HBP. (Unlike...say...Michael Corner ...who we may never see again). This seems like another JKR style hint - reminding us of these guys - they're important!

GoldenDay
July 28th, 2005, 6:32 am
Well, this is a very interesting theory! Perhaps Harry will discover the relationship when he pursues the horcruxes. Of course, this could be another "Evans" situation, but with them both having unusual, Hebrew names, I think the chance they are related is pretty good.

Gryffindor's heir - Harry?. Maybe this would add reason for LV targeting Harry (as opposed to Neville) if Harry was Gryffindor's heir. It would also maybe make the prophecy more interesting to Voldemort (i.e. he might assume it to be some deadly showdown to end the Slytherin and Gryffindor feud) but this is just an interesting thought! )

JKR pretty much shot this theory down:

MA: What about Harry's family — his grandparents — were they killed?

JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them.

MA: That sort of shuts down Heir of Gryffindor [theories], as well.

JKR: [Pause.] Yeah. Well - yeah.

MA: Another one bites the dust.

[Laughter]

Vilis Dommara
August 1st, 2005, 1:43 pm
Wow that makes him a rightful owner of the melted down Cup and the smashed up Locket when Harry will have finished with them :)

claret101
August 1st, 2005, 2:02 pm
MA: That sort of shuts down Heir of Gryffindor [theories], as well.

JKR: [Pause.] Yeah. Well - yeah.

MA: Another one bites the dust.

I dunno, that doesn't sound so convincing to me. Why the pause? Why "well -"? What was she going to say then?

I know, we've all gotten crazier and crazier with each book and now I'm making theories out of JKR taking a breath, but it just doesn't seem like a definite shut down to me.

Wimsey
August 1st, 2005, 8:36 pm
I dunno, that doesn't sound so convincing to me. Why the pause? Why "well -"? What was she going to say then?

I know, we've all gotten crazier and crazier with each book and now I'm making theories out of JKR taking a breath, but it just doesn't seem like a definite shut down to me.

You are absolutely right to do so. The interviewers comment comes completely out of the blue. Her conclusion makes sense only if a necessary property of Heirs of Gryffindor is that they are killed by Voldemort.

Prior to OotP, a popular hypothesis was that the Heir of Slytherin was trying to finish off the line of Gryffindor, and that somehow immortality (which we knew Voldemort wanted from GoF) was involved. In this model, the senior Potters might well have been casualties to Voldemort. However, even under this model, they could have died for any reason.


Thus, JKR's comment might simply have been "yeah" (stop and think: ???? what the heck - frack, I cannot correct this) "mmm, yeah." It would be a lot easier to tell if we could hear how she said it, of course.

MrSleepyHead
August 1st, 2005, 8:56 pm
I really hate Zacharias Smith, so that is the one reason I don't want this theory to be true, other than that it's perfectly possible. Like someone said above - Zacharias did get much more time in HBP. Also, it's not like JKR to put in two characters with the same name and not have them connected somehow. It would be hard for Harry if he had to ask Zacharias about Hepzibah, since Harry has a great dislike towards him.

Wimsey
August 1st, 2005, 9:11 pm
I really hate Zacharias Smith, so that is the one reason I don't want this theory to be true-other than that-perfectly possible. Like someone said above-Zacharias did get much more time in HBP.

Given that Harry probably won't spend much time at Hogwarts and given that there is no more Quidditch, we might never hear from Zacharias again.

However, consider what we do know about Zacharias. He is arrogant and haughty, and he has a haughty-looking father. He seems to have a bit of self-superiority to him. Now, this is not much upon which to go, but look at Hippy's brief description of her family. They are wealthy and clearly fairly aristocratic. They are proud of being descended from Helga Hufflepuff. One would not be surprised if her great-grandchildren wound up being like Zacharias.

Finally, given how small the wizarding population is, even so common a surname as Smith makes the relationship seem probable.

wonkyfaint
August 1st, 2005, 9:41 pm
I was wondering is she wasn't that Fat lady from the portrait because she was fat and wearing a pink dress.

No, because Harry would have recognized her right away. Plus if she was Helga Hufflepuff's descendant wouldn't her picture be hanging in the entrance to the Hufflepuff common room rather than Gryffindor?

As for Zachariah being related to Hepzibah, I thought that immediately. Sure Smith is a common name, but both first names are similar, being Biblical/Hebrew, so they sure sound like relatives. And the comment about Hepzibah being a Hufflepuff relation. After all, Zachariah's personality doesn't seem to fit the Hufflepuff character- he is haughty, and doesn't seem loyal or humble or hardworking. So he must have been sorted into Hufflepuff by virtue of his bloodline.

The Prophecy
August 1st, 2005, 10:12 pm
Reading the title of this thread I thought "No, what a crazy theory" but reading the first post I thought "Wow!"

I didn't at all notice that Hepzibah and Zacharias both had the surname Smith and Zacharias being in Hufflepuff makes it even more likely. Very very likely I think, well done!

Thædin
August 1st, 2005, 10:52 pm
I'm sure that if it was just an accident about the coincidental names, JKR could have thought of a more interesting last name than "Smith"...remember "Scrimgeour"?

Wimsey
August 1st, 2005, 11:10 pm
I'm sure that if it was just an accident about the coincidental names, JKR could have thought of a more interesting last name than "Smith"...remember "Scrimgeour"?

Yes, but "Smith" is a name that conjures images of hard-working people, which is the chief trait of Hufflepuff's house.

Nickie
August 2nd, 2005, 2:03 am
Zacharias could be useful when Harry is looking for the remaining Horcruxes.

This is exactly what I was thinking. He might have the goblet (or know where it is). I know that Smith is a common last name, but isn't it like JK to connect people who we don't think are connected? I mean, in most books, people tend to not have the same name unless they are related (I still think there is a connection between Neville's dad and Frank the Riddle's gardner...but that's for another thread). They are both Hufflepuffs (a connection that JK would have thought we would have caught--we don't know very many Hufflepuffs) and they have the same surname. If Harry figures out this connection, I think it will be HUGE in helping him find and destroy the Goblet.

time4heroes
August 2nd, 2005, 2:52 pm
i picked up on this in my second reading of the book and tought exactly the same thing. Smith is a common name but their the only two people in the wizarding world who have been mentioned that i can recall called smith. can you imagine how pompous he will be when he finds ot he's heir to hufflepuff, help us!!!

ShushuFontana
August 2nd, 2005, 8:24 pm
I think that his pomposity and the fact that Zacharias is in the same house point to the fact that they are related. He is mentioned way too often to be someone JKR will completely forget.

Shaniquoi
August 8th, 2005, 9:33 am
I find it odd that Zacharias has been placed in Hufflepuff, despite the more Slytherin-like qualities he posesses. The latest interview has JKR quoted as saying you will meet other people connected with the DEs in other houses. I think she may have been referring to Zach. My sister and I believe that as each horcrux is destroyed, so is the line of the corresponding founder. Perhaps Zach willl join up with the DEs and be murdered... Our theory is very complex, and I assure you, very interesting and even a little bit plausible, but I don't have time to type it up now. I'll be back with more :)

I definitely feel he is Hufflepuff's heir beyond doubt. My mind will probably change, though.

ericaboodle
August 8th, 2005, 11:15 am
he will be when he finds ot he's heir to hufflepuff, help us!!!

Doesn't he yet know? He seems like the type of person who would be well aware of his one bloodline. That is, if he actually IS related to Hufflepuff. I guess he doesn't, otherwise he'd be boasting about it, as being related to a founder of a House would probably make one a celebrity.

Did Dumbledore know of Zachariah's family line? He would have told Harry though, if he knew?

Tiana
August 8th, 2005, 11:30 am
thats very smart but even if it were true how could it be helpful to harry finding the horcruxes

kelcsl8r
August 14th, 2005, 3:08 pm
I think that Zacharias is related to Hepzibah and that they are both descendants of Hufflepuff, just because I think if he wasnt related to Helga he wouldnt be in her house. He doesnt have Hufflepuff qualities he is pompous and not fair or anything Hufflepuff really. I tend to think of him as Cedric Diggory's opposite. I think that Zacharias may be a clue to help Harry find the cup and destroy the horcrux.

RavenEye
August 14th, 2005, 4:40 pm
I think that Zacharias is related to Hepzibah and that they are both descendants of Hufflepuff, just because I think if he wasnt related to Helga he wouldnt be in her house. He doesnt have Hufflepuff qualities he is pompous and not fair or anything Hufflepuff really.
I can't think of any instances of Smith being unfair or disloyal: although he was pretty obnoxious in the Hog's Head and the first DA meeting, he nevertheless didn't betray the DA and continued to come to the meetings. Some people have certain qualities without necessarily displaying them outwardly, a bit like Neville having courage without it being obvious.

RegulusBlack6
August 14th, 2005, 4:45 pm
interesting but we have to remeber that smith is a very common name but it could be true i can't remeber hearing anything about his mother

rainie_hp
August 14th, 2005, 5:01 pm
I don't get it why does the descendants have to be evil or annyoing first TMR and now him how much does harry have to cope with these people. Good catch though he might be the descendent

Detonator
August 14th, 2005, 5:02 pm
I thought about it when i first read the names but i didn't really think it was important at the time. It is a very good theory.

RavenEye
August 14th, 2005, 5:02 pm
If he lost his mother to Voldy and co. (not that surprising if it turns out he was related to Helga Hufflepuff) that would maybe explain why he would have been interested in joining the DA.

Eponine1
August 16th, 2005, 11:12 am
I didn't think about that. They share the same last name. It could be that they're related, but it could also just be that Smith is a common enough name...

thegnomishone
August 16th, 2005, 11:24 am
I had the same thought about Zacharias and Hepzibah when I read HBP. It seems like JK Rowling would have learned from the Mark Evans mistake, and avoid potentially incredibly important coincidences.

Hermione Snape
August 16th, 2005, 1:12 pm
One word!

YES.

Well_Wisher
August 16th, 2005, 2:26 pm
After the Mark evans thing, I'm not getting my hopes up!!!

It would be good if he was related to helga hufflepuff though...I don't think hes that bad... :p
Just a bit annoying :p

NYCwitch920
August 16th, 2005, 6:16 pm
I'm almost done reading HBP for the 2nd time (I'm going really slow the 2nd time around to read every single detail) and I've noticed just how much Zacharias is mentioned. I know he's a minor character but I think he sticks out a bit more in this book. I find it kind of strange. I'm trying to be very careful in connecting Zacharias to Hepzibah but the more I read the book, the more I am convincing myself.

His pompous attitude (although you could say the same for Ernie) seems to match someone who might come from a family as great as Helga Hufflepuff's. If he is indeed related to Hepzibah, I wonder whether or not he knows.

RavenEye
August 16th, 2005, 6:26 pm
His pompous attitude (although you could say the same for Ernie) seems to match someone who might come from a family as great as Helga Hufflepuff's. If he is indeed related to Hepzibah, I wonder whether or not he knows.
If he is descended from Hufflepuff and he doesn't know, he probably still comes from a rich and well-respected wizarding family - Hepzibah certainly didn't seem short of cash. This could be where the haughtiness comes in.

The only other children of rich wizards we've heard about are Draco Malfoy, James Potter and Sirius Black. James seemed pretty conceited while he was at school from everything said about him from friends and foe alike; Sirius' family was very haughty, particularly towards anyone who might soil their bloodline, but he rebelled; Draco - well, enough said. So having a stuck up attitude and being rich/highly thought of in the wizard world seem to go together.

lethally_blonde
August 16th, 2005, 6:33 pm
I think JK would have learned from the Mark Evans thing so i cant see it being a co-insidence, but it is a common name, but then he is mentioned a helluva lot for a minor charachter, but, but, but, oh i dont know. I'm reserving judgement on this one for a while. If he is a descendent of Hufflepuff then he may have somekind of magical right to call upon the item? This might be the way he can help Harry.

NYCwitch920
August 16th, 2005, 6:36 pm
If he is descended from Hufflepuff and he doesn't know, he probably still comes from a rich and well-respected wizarding family - Hepzibah certainly didn't seem short of cash. This could be where the haughtiness comes in.

His haughtiness does seem to confirm that he's probably from a really well-off family. The question that's left to be answered is whether or not his wealthy family is related to Helga. :eyebrows:

Lets just hope this isn't another Mark Evans. After that fiasco, would JKR match two people with the same surname again? Surely, she would have always had the Evans situation in the back of her mind.

Mishlo
August 17th, 2005, 3:29 pm
Well.. we cannot assume that Zacharias Smith was descendent of Helga Hufflepuff.. ther's no concrete proof.

ericaboodle
August 17th, 2005, 4:07 pm
Well.. we cannot assume that Zacharias Smith was descendent of Helga Hufflepuff.. ther's no concrete proof.


That's what the entire forums are about aren't they - theories and speculation. There is rarely concrete proof for these ideas, otherwise, it would just be canon. It's simply the case where the clues lead more clearly to one possibility than another. In this case it seems that out of the characters we have met, Zacharias seems to fit the profile.

Well_Wisher
August 17th, 2005, 4:18 pm
I do think though, that he is related to her... JKR wouldn't make the same mistake again would she?

She must know that there are fans of the books who try and clues from every single detail!

:eyebrows:

MissMuggle
August 17th, 2005, 4:20 pm
Well.. we cannot assume that Zacharias Smith was descendent of Helga Hufflepuff.. ther's no concrete proof.
It's not assuming, it's theorizing :eyebrows:

I think this is a very good theory. After all, JKR wouldn't give us another Mark Evans (would she?) especially with these many connections. Same surname, Hebrew names, both Hufflepuffs, both have the same "attitudes"- if one or the other of them was just a name mentioned in passiing like Mark Evans was, then it would be a different case. But since we know some information about both of them, these similarities are hard to ignore :)

Calla_Lily
August 17th, 2005, 9:48 pm
I have the same theory. If zacharius is he could be in danger. Also, zach might be a clue to finding the Horcrux.

lunadiosa
August 17th, 2005, 11:23 pm
I had the thought that maybe one of the bones is a descendant of hufflepuff.
Fudge thinks that amelia was killed personally by voldemort. why? much of the bones family were killed, susan bones uncle edgar was in the origional oothp and both amelia and edgar are described by hadgrid and others as ´great witches/wizards´ coincidence?

hphphp62442
August 18th, 2005, 1:19 am
I had the thought that maybe one of the bones is a descendant of hufflepuff.
Fudge thinks that amelia was killed personally by voldemort. why? much of the bones family were killed, susan bones uncle edgar was in the origional oothp and both amelia and edgar are described by hadgrid and others as ´great witches/wizards´ coincidence?


Yeah, I definitely noticed that Susan Bones was mentioned more than necessary for just a background character. She also appears in the first HP movie in the Sorting Hat scene, and I thought that was especially strange because all of the other people that scene showed being sorted were significant in the books and movies.

Herocatholic
August 24th, 2005, 12:38 am
Seems plausible, since he was an introduced character. And usually, if you are an heir to a founder of Hogwarts, chances are greatly you will be in that house.

vian
August 27th, 2005, 11:47 am
I'm so sure Zacharias Smith is related to Hepzibah Smith. Let's look at the evidence from an *cough*objective perspective:
Both were in Hufflepuff (or at least I'm sure Hepzibah was if she went to Hogwarts, which she must have).
They have the same surname, duh!
Both have Hebrew (?) names...I'm not too sure what the exact origin is but I know they're similar.
Also, we know for a fact that the Hufflepuff relic (the goblet) was in existence, and that Voldemort knew of it. Dumbledore believed that Voldemort had made it into a Horcrux and I trust his judgment (inspite of HBP!).
Finally, though this is neither objective nor evidence, Zacharias was mentioned a lot of times in this book. Many more times than other random members of the DA were, e.g. Terry Boot or Anthony Goldstein. I think that this is because he plays an important, or at least sizable role in the last book.

I don't think he's there to be a good friend of Harry's, because he's so irritating (lol). Therefore he must have some other purpose if he's in the next book. I think that he's going to help, maybe knowingly or unknowingly, with the search for the Hufflepuff goblet. He might lead the Trio to it by mentioning it in passing, or mentioning it without knowing it for what it is.

Sam_62442
August 27th, 2005, 4:22 pm
I do believe that Zachariah is descendant of Helga Hufflepuff; it would just be too much of a coincidence. For beginners, as someone else has pointed out, Zachariah and Hephzibah are both very traditional Hebrew names, and it would be J.K.R. blatantly trying to **** with us if they weren’t related. Some have also been saying that Smith is a very common last name, but when have we ever met anyone in the magical community to date that shared the same last name that weren’t related other than Mark Evans, who technically isn’t a member of the of magical community but a typical muggle neighbor of Harry’s. We heard about the Prewett brothers, who were murdered by Death Eaters, and we later learned that Molly’s maiden name was Prewett, and J.K.R. confirmed that they were indeed related; this is just one of many examples.

I believe that there has been only one occasion to date that J.K.R. simply was having a bit of “fun” with us, and that was when she chose to give Mark Evans that specific surname, no matter what she says she knew what she was doing and it was intentional, and unless she lied to us because he is a key to the rest of the HP story, then she was simply having a good laugh. I was never too sure about Mark Evans anyway so I wasn’t all that upset, but there is no way that these two Hufflepuff’s that share the same surname and both have traditional Hebrew first names aren’t related. What this will mean for the rest of the plot, who knows. I’m sure it will be in some way important simply because I don’t think that J.K.R. would just randomly be throwing heirs into Hogwarts during Harry’s stay if it isn’t going to become something important to do with the plot. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ravenclaw and Gryffindor have heirs at the school as well. Oh, by the way, I’m pretty sure J.K.R. has confirmed that Harry isn’t Gyffindor’s heir, but what about the Weasleys, has she ever said anything about them and their ancestry. We also don’t know what “race” the founding four were, they could have been white, black, Asian, or even middle eastern for all that we know, so we really can’t narrow it down to anyone in particular, for all we know Cho Chang could be Rowena Ravenclaw’s heir.

RavenEye
August 27th, 2005, 4:51 pm
The four founders seem to be drawn from separate corners of Britain, which in 1000 would have been almost entirely white. Notice also how the founders seem to come from areas associated with their house element:

Ravenclaw - glen (mountainous valley) - air
Hufflepuff - valley - earth
Slytherin - fen (marshy low flat land) - water
Gryffindor - moor - ok now I'm struggling, I suppose moorlands can be the colour of fire

I think I remember JKR saying that Rowena Ravenclaw never found a lover who met her standards, which would go against her having any direct heirs. We know at least that Hufflepuff and Slytherin did leave descendants.

As to what importance an heir could have to the plot: it is unlikely that they would know where their heirloom is hidden unless Voldemort has been spectacularly careless. They may however know the nature and how to access the object's own magic powers (those not bestowed on it by Voldemort). It is this that could hold the key to destroying the Horcrux and show that Voldemort underestimated these powers in his haste to put part of his soul into a founder's object.

weluvtham00n
August 27th, 2005, 8:17 pm
As to what importance an heir could have to the plot: it is unlikely that they would know where their heirloom is hidden unless Voldemort has been spectacularly careless. They may however know the nature and how to access the object's own magic powers (those not bestowed on it by Voldemort). It is this that could hold the key to destroying the Horcrux and show that Voldemort underestimated these powers in his haste to put part of his soul into a founder's object.

That's true. From JKR's pov, what would be the point of Z Smith being a descendant? (I'm not saying he isnt, infact i think it very likely) because the hufflepuff relic has already been stolen. I think we should be looking out for a Ravenclaw descendant more than anything. But still -- amazing catch! I didn't catch this first OR second time round! Then again, I always skim the bits about people I don't care about (shameful I know) Z Smith being one of them.

Liza1593
August 28th, 2005, 2:08 am
It is very likely that he is a descendant but I don't think that he is going to be much help seeing as the cup was taken away from the smith's. It has nothing to d owith that family anymore, its in Voldemorts plans

Wait, if Harry is the heir of gryffindor (or maybe a weasley then we have---- Voldemort, heir of Slytherin, Harry Potter, heir of Gryffindor, Zacharias Smith, heir of Hufflepuff , what about the heir of Ravenclaw, and what happens when you get all of them together

SiriusBlack22
August 28th, 2005, 2:18 am
Hm... I think that it might be. I always wondere what this guy's purpose was... but maybe this is it: he has a connection to one of Voldemort's horcruzes. I think it is very coincidental that both have the same last name, both were in Hufflepuff, and both are Hebrew names. I don't know but that seems TOO odd to be a coincidence. But, let's say it is, how will that tie Zacharias Smith into it? Will he have to take Harry to the horcrux? Or maybe Zacharias even has it with him at Hogwarts... but that seems to easy to me. I think that this definitely could have a connection. Good spot. :)

DracoIsMyKing
August 28th, 2005, 2:48 am
Hepzibah and Zacharias are similar names, but Smith is a very popular last name. Maybe this was another slip-up by JKR making us think something is there when it really isn't. Remember that whole "Is the Evans boy related to Lily" thing? JKR said in an interview that she didn't realize that she used the same last name for two unrelated characters. Perhaps she did the same thing this time.

But he and his father (? I don't remember which parent picked him up from Hogwarts at the end of the year) are quite haughty. Maybe it's because they're related to Hufflepuff.

tonkscrazy
August 28th, 2005, 3:10 am
good idea !
i think it may have a conection . we know JK Rowling always does sometihng for a purpose , it cant be just a coincidence. i mean the surname , the house they studied....., its jkr style.;)

CrimsonWood
August 28th, 2005, 10:11 pm
I felt so proud of myself for coming up with this connection. Guess you can't win them all. Good job, NYCwitch!

Monkeyskunk
August 31st, 2005, 2:50 am
Ha! I didn't even THINK of this. Now though, I feel that I'm incredibly stupid having not caught that.
You're not alone. :whistle:
Wait, if Harry is the heir of gryffindor (or maybe a weasley then we have---- Voldemort, heir of Slytherin, Harry Potter, heir of Gryffindor, Zacharias Smith, heir of Hufflepuff , what about the heir of Ravenclaw, and what happens when you get all of them together
It's like what the Sorting Hat said about unity within Hogwarts....Maybe the heirs of the three houses have to work together to defeat the heir of Slytherin...

graylady
August 31st, 2005, 9:45 pm
It's like what the Sorting Hat said about unity within Hogwarts....Maybe the heirs of the three houses have to work together to defeat the heir of Slytherin...
if that's so, then i bet luna is the heir of ravenclaw...but i don't think harry is the heir of gryffindor so nevermind (unless the weasleys are the heirs of gryffindor...but nevermind).

anyway, i thought zacharias smith was probably related to hepzibah/hufflepuff, too. for one thing, why else would he be in hufflepuff house? he's not just and fair or sweet or anything of that nature. and there must be some reason why he gets mentioned so much in books 5 and 6.

Saiorri
August 31st, 2005, 10:09 pm
Yes, but Smith is really a common name. But I guess if JK mentioned it, it must be worth paying attention to. If someone were mentioned in the book, and their name was Ashley Weasley, automatically we would all presume they are connected to the Weasley's we are used to hearing about in some way or another......interesting theory though about Harry having to bite his toungue to get along with Zacharias to trace a horcrux of Helga's.....

weluvtham00n
August 31st, 2005, 10:19 pm
interesting theory though about Harry having to bite his toungue to get along with Zacharias to trace a horcrux of Helga's.....

Do you think that the Hufflepuff horcrux [cup] could be summoned by loyalty above and beyond, as the Griffindor Sword was brought to Harry in CoS? In that case, having Zacharias could be very useful, but only in an extreme situation.

That would mean that yet another student would have to find out about the horcruxes, and yet another person would not be returning to Hogwarts. I'm not convinced that Harry would be keen to tell anyone about his mission, not even the heir of hufflepuff, when he wouldnt tell McG - someone he actually likes and trusts (and could help him, potentially). It would be against the grain, for Harry and for the mission.

Saiorri
August 31st, 2005, 10:35 pm
I'm not convinced that Harry would be keen to tell anyone about his mission, not even the heir of hufflepuff, when he wouldnt tell McG - someone he actually likes and trusts (and could help him, potentially). It would be against the grain, for Harry and for the mission.


very true. harry is always so secret squirrell about everything he does. he didn't want anyone to go with him to the Ministry in OOTP and had Hermione not gone with him, he would have been stuck in the revolving door room. its understandable why harry does not want to tell anyone of the mission, but its still crucial he does. no matter how many ppl do or dont accompany him, it will be his burden and his burden alone that finishes the battle between him and LV. Afterall, he already feels screwed that he was marked by Tom Riddle and not Neville....so I can see why he wants to do it alone, b/c ultimately, no matter the outcome of how the battle comes and or goes, he will have to stand alone.

RavenEye
September 1st, 2005, 8:45 am
I don't believe that the Sorting Hat would place someone in a house just because they were a descendant of its founder (except for Slytherin, that is).

I don't think Harry would necessarily need to tell others the precise details of his mission to get their help, just telling them that he wants to find and destroy a curse on their family heirloom might be enough.

Freaky
September 1st, 2005, 1:44 pm
I wouldn't say definitely no, but Smith is a very common name.

Monkeyskunk
September 2nd, 2005, 4:53 am
Do you think that the Hufflepuff horcrux [cup] could be summoned by loyalty above and beyond, as the Griffindor Sword was brought to Harry in CoS? In that case, having Zacharias could be very useful, but only in an extreme situation.

That would mean that yet another student would have to find out about the horcruxes, and yet another person would not be returning to Hogwarts. I'm not convinced that Harry would be keen to tell anyone about his mission, not even the heir of hufflepuff, when he wouldnt tell McG - someone he actually likes and trusts (and could help him, potentially). It would be against the grain, for Harry and for the mission.
Let's hope Zacharias has some realatives...

Harry_Hottie
September 2nd, 2005, 5:57 am
Smith is to of a common name to think they are related

Sam_62442
September 2nd, 2005, 5:59 am
Smith is to of a common name to think they are related

This isn't the only or even main evidence. They both have extremley traditional Hebrew first names, and are both Hufflepuffs. Also, for a nobody, Zachariah was sure mentioned alot during HBP.

Honestly, what are the odds that J.K.R. would have two members of the magical community who share the same surname, both have traditional Hebrew first names and are both Hufflepuffs?

graylady
September 2nd, 2005, 6:06 am
Let's hope Zacharias has some realatives...
my thoughts exactly.

danonano
September 2nd, 2005, 6:22 am
Ok. First of all I am a Jew. Second of all I speak Hebrew. Third, I'm a very avid HP fan. I think that they are related, because its too coincidental that they are in the same house and have the same last name. Just because Smith is a popular last name in the real world does not mean its popular in the HP world, especially in the wizarding community. But honestly, I have never heard the name Hepzibah in all of my years living. The closest thing I can think of that is hebrew from that name are Zivah. I really dont think that Hepzibah is a Hebrew name, but if anyone can show me someone in real life, or in the bible please post it. But honestly a lot of people that have posted seem to be taking Hepzibah as a hebrew name blindly. I really dont think that is what JKR is using to indicate that they are related.

vian
September 2nd, 2005, 10:55 am
Let's hope Zacharias has some realatives...

We know he has at least one: in HBP, at the end of the book (after Dumbledore's death) his 'haughty' looking father takes him away from Hogwarts.

nz_allblacks
September 2nd, 2005, 11:46 am
i think this zacharias theory is very valid
smith has been introduced throughout ootp and hbp and the introduction of Hepzibah smith and zacharias being in huffleppuff is very curious...
however this can also be rowling's joke of a red herring --- its just like R.A.B.= Regulus theory
make everyone think zacharias is the heir of hufflepuff, and then the7th comes out and it has absolutely no relevance...
personally i hope smith ISNT helga's heir...
he's a jerk!

Sam_62442
September 2nd, 2005, 10:25 pm
Ok. First of all I am a Jew. Second of all I speak Hebrew. Third, I'm a very avid HP fan. I think that they are related, because its too coincidental that they are in the same house and have the same last name. Just because Smith is a popular last name in the real world does not mean its popular in the HP world, especially in the wizarding community. But honestly, I have never heard the name Hepzibah in all of my years living. The closest thing I can think of that is hebrew from that name are Zivah. I really dont think that Hepzibah is a Hebrew name, but if anyone can show me someone in real life, or in the bible please post it. But honestly a lot of people that have posted seem to be taking Hepzibah as a hebrew name blindly. I really dont think that is what JKR is using to indicate that they are related.

I've heard the name many times, but with a slight spelling change. But here is a bible reference for you.

2 Kings 21

Manasseh King of Judah

1 Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. His mother's name was Hephzibah.

It is a women, since she is the mother of Manasseh, and since he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years and this is Biblical times it is very obvious that he was Jewish and so was she. But the spelling is a little different but that happens a alot when translating the Bible.

danonano
September 3rd, 2005, 12:03 am
Ok the arguemnet can stand, because I doubt JKR has read Kings in Hebrew, but if I were to transliterate it, it would be Cheftzi-Vah, or maybe Heftsi Vah i dont really know how to pronounce it in English. So the Hebrew name thing can stand for the purposes in this post. Thanks for clarifying sam_62442.

Lotr_hp_fan
September 3rd, 2005, 12:15 am
You have a point there... Smith is a very common name but there are probably very few wizarding families with the surname Smith. I can't see Harry and Zacharias working together to find a Helga's cup, though

graylady
September 3rd, 2005, 12:51 am
As to what importance an heir could have to the plot: it is unlikely that they would know where their heirloom is hidden unless Voldemort has been spectacularly careless. They may however know the nature and how to access the object's own magic powers (those not bestowed on it by Voldemort). It is this that could hold the key to destroying the Horcrux and show that Voldemort underestimated these powers in his haste to put part of his soul into a founder's object.

i think i remember (though i may be mistaken) hepzibah saying she hadn't even tried to find out any of the magical properties of hufflepuffs cup, that she just kept it nice and safe - so if she didn't have the knowledge she couldn't have passed it down to her descendants (i.e. zacharias). but then again, maybe her children thought hepzibah was silly for not trying to find out what the cup could do and snuck around and found out for themselves behind her back....
so i guess this post was pointless since it argues for and against the same thing.

Harryfan13
September 3rd, 2005, 3:55 am
I have not gotten a chance to read all of the posts on this topic so forgive me if I'm reiterating someone elses thoughts. I think that everyone agrees that Zacharias is quite arrogant and maybe borderline snobish but that in itself is why I don't think that he is related to HH. Of the four founders of Hogwarts HH was quite obviously the least arrogant of them all as she proved by putting absolutely no standards so to speak on which students she was willing to accept into her house. I completely understand that over hundreds of years people and their morals change, but one would think that a blanket acceptance of people would be a "family tradition" worth upholding through the years. Then again I could be wrong...

Sam_62442
September 3rd, 2005, 4:59 am
I have not gotten a chance to read all of the posts on this topic so forgive me if I'm reiterating someone elses thoughts. I think that everyone agrees that Zacharias is quite arrogant and maybe borderline snobish but that in itself is why I don't think that he is related to HH. Of the four founders of Hogwarts HH was quite obviously the least arrogant of them all as she proved by putting absolutely no standards so to speak on which students she was willing to accept into her house. I completely understand that over hundreds of years people and their morals change, but one would think that a blanket acceptance of people would be a "family tradition" worth upholding through the years. Then again I could be wrong...

C'mon people, how many examples have we had to contradict this above statement. Just because a family is a certain way doesn't mean every member of it is going to be the same. This fact is true in the magical community as it is in our own world. Look at Sirius, Percy, and Merope; these three couldn't be any different than the rest of their family. Sirius Black and Merope Gaunt come from a family of pure-blooded mud-blood hating witches and wizards. Yet, Sirius hates what his family does and goes against their beliefs, and Merope who comes from the worst of the worst mud-blood haters goes as far as marrying a muggle. Percy comes from a clan where family is placed before all else, yet he cares more about power than anything, even if it means leaving the family.

Also, we know very little about Zachariah, except that he is a Hufflepuff, is a chaser on the Hufflepuff Quidditch team, and is a member of the DA most importantly. That last little bit is the most important, and tells us most about him and his character inside. The whole point of the DA was for those who wanted to learn to defend themselves now that LV is back, meaning that at the very least, he is against LV and what he stands for. So he may not be the most social person but we know he has a good heart.

Dralien
September 6th, 2005, 3:34 am
Hepzibah could be his grandmother or something. He's in Hufflepuff and she had Hufflepuff's cup, and I believe that she was related to Hufflepuff or at least in Hufflepuff if she went to Hogwarts. I don't think that Zacharias' character was introduced for no good reason, how many characters do we know that have had a fair amount of screen time and haven't had almost no affect on Harry (he was in the DA and drew a lot of attention to himself and commentated that match in HBP and suffered from "Loser's Lurgy")? In fact he is mentioned more than Dean and Seamus in OotP and HBP (apart from Dean's thing with Ginny) after we first meet him. I think there is more too him and if Harry goes back to Hogwarts I think Zacharias will overhear them or something and help find the cup because he gets made at LV for killing his grandmother and taking one of his family's precious heirlooms and putting part of his soul into it.

tink87
September 6th, 2005, 4:01 pm
I'm interested to see what Zacharias' role will be in book 7 because i fully believe this theory. If he is the descendant of Hufflepuff and Voldemort is the descendant of Slytherin then there is a pattern emerging. The fight between the founders of Hogwarts has been a running them of all the books. Gryffindor's sword being used to thwart the basilisk in book 2 and now this. I feel the only one that we really have yet to find out anything about is Ravenclaw. To me it all just seems to come back to the founders, after all Voldemort merely took up Slytherin's cause and Harry has taken up Gryffindor's role in trying to get rid of LV. Hmmmm, sorry have gone a bit off topic.

MissPixieDust
September 6th, 2005, 11:48 pm
Well he certainly could be, Rowling usually drops hints about stuff and then at the end she reveals it and then we make the connection, so maybe thats what she was doing here. Maybe he will help Harry or something.

DrEvilGeniusHPF
September 10th, 2005, 1:52 am
Zacharias Smith is definitely Hephzibah Smith's descendant and therefore Helga Hufflepuff is an ancestor of his. This occured to me whilst reading the book. I am 110% sure of this fact. He is has Hufflepuff blood and is in the Hufflepuff house; this is very much like Voldemort. His personality (snobbish etc.) doesn't change his family's past-- and I believe that in the 7th book, Harry Potter will realise the connection and Zacharias Smith will play an enormous role in the thwarting of LV.

I also have the sneaky feeling that he knows what happened in the past-- maybe not exactl details, but the gist of murder and of something to do with the house-elf. Harry is going to have his work cut out trying to get Smith to help. Ginny may help in Smith's interrogation, if he proves "uncooperative".

He may be pompous or snobbish because he knows that he's an ancestor of Hufflepuff although he doesn't voice this aloud because he knows no-one will believe him-- Voldemort never disclosed his ancestry except to his close followers.

Zacharias definitely doesn't know that a family heirloom that had 'vanished' many years ago, is LV's Horcrux. He probably doesn't even know he has an heirloom that has been plundered but he does know that he's Helga's ancestor (possibly).

The problem for Harry is tracking the Horcruxes; they could be absolutely anywhere although I'm sure that clues to where, will be found at Godric's Hollow and the wedding of Fleur and Bill may even prove helpful in the most surprising twist.

To be quite honest, I want to see how this works out-- it seems practically impossible, but JKR always manages to surprise me greatly in the end. Can't wait

EmBlack
September 13th, 2005, 11:51 pm
I would be very surprised if it turns out that Zacharias is NOT related to Hepzibah Smith. That's what I instantly thought when I read about Hepzibah and being a disant relative of Huffelpuffs. It is too much of a coincidence IMO. However, I don't think that Zach is going to be of much help to Harry in his search for horcruxes, he just doesn't seem the type. Besides, he is not very likely to know where the horcrux cup is since it was stolen from Hepzibah years before, and LV wouldn't have hidden it anywhere near any of her living relatives.

ldella11
November 26th, 2005, 8:30 pm
I thought this as well when I read that Hephzibah Smith was a late decendent of Helga Hufflepuff..an instant connection went to Zach. I guess you could say..I support this theory.

ixMattxi
November 27th, 2005, 2:20 am
Hmm, on one hand, Zacharias and Hephzibah have a very similiar attitude and demeanor ("I'm better than you"). On the other, Smith is a very common last name. I think it's possible, but I don't think it will serve a purpose.

_DarkAngel_
November 27th, 2005, 3:18 am
Yes, when I was reading that part with Hepzibah I remembered Zacharias Smith. I nevr really thought about him being a descendant of Hufflepuff though. But Smith is a pretty common name so he doesn't really have to be related to Hepzibah. Could be like Mark Evans, huh?:huh:

ReginaWeasley
November 27th, 2005, 3:29 am
When Zacharias was dragged away by his father was it possible that he was scared that something would happen? Maybe his son would be killed or Zacharias may have been used to help with the Horcrux and he would be safe at home. I doubt this is a Mark Evans thing
because of many reasons:

+ Same last name
+ Greek first names
+ Same house
+ haughty father

Zacharias may be an important character while Mark Evans was just a name out of the
basket.

Te_Amorangi_15
November 27th, 2005, 7:11 am
Yes. If he would have had all of those characteristics that _LoonyLovegood_ has just mentioned, he could have been a descendant. Therfore he doesn't, so therefore he can't be .... :D

sweetjazz16
November 27th, 2005, 7:34 am
Oh, how clever! This could easily be true, though Smith might be a common name even in the wizarding world. I wouldn't be surprised, though... especially since Zacharias got a little more attention in this book.

i agree that was good thinking. i probably wouldn't have never thought of that! it could happen. we'll see....

ReginaWeasley
November 28th, 2005, 7:41 am
Heehee... There ain't any proof that he ain't Heir Of Hufflepuff...

I just worked something else out: JKR was really annoyed when the Mark Evans theory broke out, this was before HBP was released, JK would have been careful not to let another Mark Evans thing slip out so.... I don't think Zach is a Mark Evans!!!

Buckblack76
November 28th, 2005, 8:07 am
This is actually a pretty good theory. I never thought about it myself, but this seems very plausible.

ReginaWeasley
November 29th, 2005, 5:36 am
One more thing.... Zacharias plays for Hufflepuff in Quidditch.. maybe that makes him heir.... I don't know where that came from...

Cadia
November 30th, 2005, 4:06 am
Well, I just started a thread on this, and was referred here. Goody! I'm glad to find there are so many out there who noticed this too! I like this theory and think it could lead to interesting things. I know lots of people want to know more about the four founders and their heirs in book 7, including me!

Gawain
November 30th, 2005, 4:42 am
Smith, how else would he be in Hufflepuff? He is not very loyal, for one. In fact, as I am sure it has been brought up, he is rather mean spirited. A lot of my friends and I speculated why he could be in Hufflepuff in OotP. Well, HBP gave a very good answer for it. Blood is stronger than the traits the house embodies in this case. In my mind, at least.

ReginaWeasley
December 19th, 2005, 3:57 am
Smith, is the rudest student who's not in Slytherin (Exemption Cormac McLaggen!) so you've got a point!

ReginaWeasley
December 19th, 2005, 4:10 am
More Points To Prove This Theory ~

*Both Zacharias and Hepzibah have an I-am-the-best attitude
*In the bible Zechariah was a decendent of Hezekiah... look at this:
Zechariah Haezekiah
Zacharias Hepzibah
(Lightbulb)

pixiestx7
December 19th, 2005, 4:23 am
When I read that, I thought about it too. While he did get much more attention in the fifth and sixth books, Smith is still an awfully common name. However, I do think that he is related to her and may even have a horcrux (possibly?)

NWO_fan
December 20th, 2005, 11:47 am
It could be, but we haven't got many evidence, right? Smith is a very common name, and Sirius already said that pure-blood families are all linked to each other. After 1000 probably every pureblood has had an ancestor linked to any of the four school founders.

schizopath
December 20th, 2005, 12:28 pm
But the book made not many mentions about the Smith Family as to whether Hepzibah had brothers. She could have been the only Smith.

RavenEye
December 20th, 2005, 7:19 pm
But the book made not many mentions about the Smith Family as to whether Hepzibah had brothers. She could have been the only Smith.
She definitely has 'family' - no mention of what specific relatives but probably no brothers as she was the one who had inherited the cup (she says 'we' are distantly descended from Helga Hufflepuff). This suggests she was either an only child or the eldest daughter. Most likely the family who expected to inherit the cup after her death were her children.

If Zacharias is a relative of Hepzibah's, then it is most likely that he is descended through her son - since he probably wouldn't be a Smith if he were descended through a daughter or a nephew/niece of Hepzibah.

randomhats
December 22nd, 2005, 11:03 am
I think that Zacharias is definately a relative of Hepzibah because JK Rowling wouldn't make another mistake like the Evans incident. I noticed the Smith connection 2nd time i read the book and i'm really pleased loads of other people noticed as well. The only other mention of Zacharias's family is when his 'haughty-looking father' escorted him from the castle at the beginning of the chapter 'The White Tomb'. It would make sense he is a relative because he has been mentioned a lot in the last two books and it would explain why JK Rowling introduced this character.

My friend had a theory that maybe decendants of the other 3 houses will all be revealed and might join forces to help Harry but i doubt this will actually happen. I do however think its quite a good idea so i thought i would mention it.

SpinnersEnd
December 22nd, 2005, 12:49 pm
Even if he is a decendant of hufflepuff what difference would that make. Voldermort stole the cup and it's now dissapeared. surely if hepizbah's family had got it back dumbledore would have been able to track it down.

since JKR has emphasised that it is our choices who define who we are not our ancestory i don't think it makes much of a difference to zacharias. if he doesn't like harry/want to help now he's hardly going to change his mind if he suddenly finds out he's the hier of hufflepuff

RavenEye
December 22nd, 2005, 5:46 pm
Even if he is a decendant of hufflepuff what difference would that make. Voldermort stole the cup and it's now dissapeared. surely if hepizbah's family had got it back dumbledore would have been able to track it down.
Depends if Voldemort hid it or another Horcrux somewhere that was significant to Helga Hufflepuff. If he did then Hepzibah's family may potentially have information about where these places might be. There is also the cup's own magical powers to think about: these may help locate the cup or help destroy the piece of soul within. Hepzibah seemed to know what magical powers had been attributed to the cup, maybe her descendants would too.

since JKR has emphasised that it is our choices who define who we are not our ancestory i don't think it makes much of a difference to zacharias. if he doesn't like harry/want to help now he's hardly going to change his mind if he suddenly finds out he's the hier of hufflepuff
He might be inclined to help if he knew Voldemort had murdered one of his relatives in the past. The Smith family may have suspected the involvement of Tom Riddle who worked at Bourgin & Burke's but it isn't well known that Riddle is Voldemort.

Zacharias may be in some danger himself if Voldemort doesn't want other heirs competing with him (per Ernie Macmillan's speculation in CoS when he thought Harry was the heir of Slytherin).

ReginaWeasley
December 23rd, 2005, 7:44 am
The cup of Hufflepuff may have some powers that Zach may know how to activate them...

Selene Sedai
December 23rd, 2005, 7:47 am
Um he could be... but we can't just assume its him, because you know there have been other hufflepuff's in hogwarts that j.k has mentioned. I would say that Susan Bones is a more likely candidate.

DA_DA
March 19th, 2006, 10:37 am
I was wondering is she wasn't that Fat lady from the portrait because she was fat and wearing a pink dress.

interesting idea no name was ever given for her :tu:

on the thought of the horcruxes, what could be the one from ravenclaw or gryfindor. could it be a tiara



mrs weasly says they might persuade her gradmother. we don't know her ancestry or her maiden name. could this be one of the horcruxes. maybe voldy had the horcruxe and wanted to hide it under dd's nose. he would be paceing thinking i need a place to hide this and opens the room of requirment.

please post your thoughts to my theorie.

qoute from Runnels

My thoughts exatly:tu: The Weazley's are from a long line of wizards. Anything in that Ginny is the first female Weazley in few generations?:D

7thHorcrux- from pg 5 of the thread ;

are you confused? Sounds like a contrdiction. :D

maggie_113
March 23rd, 2006, 6:42 am
i think he is that is why he may have joined DA his family might have known that it was voldemort who killed hepzibah..so maybe zaharias had some hatred towards voldemort(he also believed harry that voldemort was back)

scd
March 23rd, 2006, 6:46 am
She was killed before Smith was born though, but would he know that Voldermont who killed her?

CleverBadger
March 23rd, 2006, 7:28 am
Point 1 for Zacharias Smith not being the heir of Hufflepuff.

Obviously this is something that his family, and people in general would probably know. Especially someone like Slughorn who seems to know everything about everyone. He knew that Blaise Zabini was the son of a "famously beautiful witch" who I think is decidedly less famous than Helga Hufflepuff.

Wouldn't Slughorn have wanted the heir of one of the Hogwart's founders in the Slug Club? That certainly would have been a nice little gem for his collection.

If he is the heir, it's probably unimportant to the story.

scd
March 23rd, 2006, 7:32 am
Point 1 for Zacharias Smith not being the heir of Hufflepuff.

Obviously this is something that his family, and people in general would probably know. Especially someone like Slughorn who seems to know everything about everyone. He knew that Blaise Zabini was the son of a "famously beautiful witch" who I think is decidedly less famous than Helga Hufflepuff.

Wouldn't Slughorn have wanted the heir of one of the Hogwart's founders in the Slug Club? That certainly would have been a nice little gem for his collection.

If he is the heir, it's probably unimportant to the story.
I never relized that before. Smith is a common name though, so maybe Slughorn did not know that Smith could be related to Helga Hufflepuff.

DA_DA
March 23rd, 2006, 8:34 am
The matter of heirs may have relavence to the knowledge each posseses, though I don't think it cental to the solution Harry needs.
Dumbledore said to Harry that purity and blood-ties are not important, it is the choices that we make that define us.

AND HARRY"S REPLY: "I"M JUST HARRY". PS.:cool: