Snape's Potions Book

Harry moved around behind Snape and read the heading of the examination paper: DEFENSE AGAINST THE DARK ARTS – ORDINARY WIZARDING LEVEL So Snape had to be fifteen or sixteen, around Harry’s own age. His hand was flying across the parchment; he had written at least a foot more than his closest neighbors, and yet his writing was minuscule and cramped.

Well, you can't really compare the handwriting on a parchment to the one on a book. A parchment is blank and is designed to be written on while there's full of text in a book. It's so obvious that the handwriting on the book needs to be minuscule and cramped because there's just not enough space.

And for everyone who thinks Lily is the annotator, don't you think that the idea of Lily Evans, a star student, every teacher's favourite, having such horrible handwriting and scribbling all over her textbook is just plainly wrong? :huh:

I do believe the book belonged to Snape, and before him his mother.

In a nutshell-

Snapes mother kept her old textbook, (I have kept textbooks of subjects I love). She was either very good at potions, or loved the subject. Why waste the money on a second copy of the book, it hasn't changed since she was in school,let him use it. Give him a few hints, have him write them down, let him look great in class.

Snape gets to school, starts making up his own spells/hexes/jinxes/curses, writes them down. James/Sirius/Remus get a hold of the book,try his curses on him. Snape makes counter spells/hexes, etc, toprotect himself.

Snape gets the potions job, brings his book with him. He is offered the DADA position,in his excitement he accidentally leaves the book behind.

Harry gets the book.

The handwriting is Snapes. The Half-Blood Prince is in the same handwriting as the rest of the notes. The publishing date is about 50 years ago.
And yes I know Hermione says it looks like girls handwriting, Harry senses that it is a "blokes", he has been working with it, she just gives it dirty looks.
See below for my reasoning.

US edition, the underlining is my emphasis.

Page 193
Harry bent low to retrieve the book, he saw something scribbled along the bottom of the back cover in the same small, cramped handwriting as the instuctions that had won him his bottle of Felix Felicis... This book is property of the Half-Blood Prince.

Page 337
...until he finally found,at the front of the book, the date it had been published. It was nearly fifty years old.

Page 538
"Its the way he writes, I just know the Prince was a bloke,I can tell"

I do believe that the book probably belonged to Snape's mom, however, I do have an interesting theory.
The book originaly belonged to Voldemort. He created the spells and revised the potions. It fits with his thirst to prove himself. When he left to work at B&B's he sold the spellbook to them since it contained dark magic. Snape who was always interested in dark magic (probably because of his home life) wonders into B&B's when he is out buying school supplies and finds a used potions book. He buys it and learns its secrets.

I do believe the book belonged to Snape, and before him his mother.

In a nutshell-

Snapes mother kept her old textbook, (I have kept textbooks of subjects I love). She was either very good at potions, or loved the subject. Why waste the money on a second copy of the book, it hasn't changed since she was in school,let him use it. Give him a few hints, have him write them down, let him look great in class.

Snape gets to school, starts making up his own spells/hexes/jinxes/curses, writes them down. James/Sirius/Remus get a hold of the book,try his curses on him. Snape makes counter spells/hexes, etc, toprotect himself.

Snape gets the potions job, brings his book with him. He is offered the DADA position,in his excitement he accidentally leaves the book behind.

Harry gets the book.

The handwriting is Snapes. The Half-Blood Prince is in the same handwriting as the rest of the notes. The publishing date is about 50 years ago.
And yes I know Hermione says it looks like girls handwriting, Harry senses that it is a "blokes", he has been working with it, she just gives it dirty looks.
See below for my reasoning.

US edition, the underlining is my emphasis.

Page 193
Harry bent low to retrieve the book, he saw something scribbled along the bottom of the back cover in the same small, cramped handwriting as the instuctions that had won him his bottle of Felix Felicis... This book is property of the Half-Blood Prince.

Page 337
...until he finally found,at the front of the book, the date it had been published. It was nearly fifty years old.

Page 538
"Its the way he writes, I just know the Prince was a bloke,I can tell"

I agree with everything you've just said but the part about the Marauders getting hold of the book. I doubt that James, Sirius and Lupin ever got hold of the book. Remember when Harry asked Lupin about the Half-Blood Prince? Lupin had no ideas who it was. If one of the Marauders had got hold of the book, I don't think they could have missed such interesting detail.

It took a fall to the floor for Harry to find it, bottom back cover isn't the first place you'd look. Especially if a guy like Snape is trying to get it back. :eyebrows:

Riddle me this, Snape fans:

Since Advanced Potions is a 6th year book and the Levicorpus (nvbl) was common during 5th year, does that further imply that Snape got the book from his mom?

Seeing Snape's home full of books and assuming that that is both where he grew up and has always looked like a library. Would a young Snape have browsed eagerly through his mom's old schoolbooks, taking a particular interest in potions and using that book as his developmental notebook of sorts throughout his time at Hogwarts?

I could buy that, but here is the bit that doesn't make as much sense to me: Snape is a DADA guy. Desperate to teach it, could have written an encylopedia on it during OWLS (remember the SWM scene was DADA, not Potions).

Why wouldn't Snape have chosen a DADA book for all of his spell development and private notes, why Potions, where he obviously has skill, but much less interest. . .?

It took a fall to the floor for Harry to find it, bottom back cover isn't the first place you'd look. Especially if a guy like Snape is trying to get it back. :eyebrows:

Yes, you are quite right. However, I found this:

Sitting up in bed, Harry turned the book sideways so as to examine more closely the scribbled instructions for a spell that seemed to have caused the Prince some trouble. There were many crossing-out and alterations, but finally, crammed into a corner of the page, the scribble:
Levicorpus (n-vbl)...

Anyone who has read the Levicorpus's instructions in the book must of known or at least, thought that whoever owned the book wrote the spell. But when Harry asked Lupin about the Levicorpus, Lupin clearly did not know who invented the spell, he only said that the spell had a great vogue during his time at Hogwarts. If the Marauders indeed got hold of the book and tried Snape's spells on him, surely, Lupin must have had some memory of the Levicorpus being scribbled in Snape's potions book, right? :p

I could buy that, but here is the bit that doesn't make as much sense to me: Snape is a DADA guy. Desperate to teach it, could have written an encylopedia on it during OWLS (remember the SWM scene was DADA, not Potions).

Why wouldn't Snape have chosen a DADA book for all of his spell development and private notes, why Potions, where he obviously has skill, but much less interest. . .?

Well, remember...we haven't SEEN his old school DADA book yet! :)

Riddle me this, Snape fans:

Since Advanced Potions is a 6th year book and the Levicorpus (nvbl) was common during 5th year, does that further imply that Snape got the book from his mom?

Seeing Snape's home full of books and assuming that that is both where he grew up and has always looked like a library. Would a young Snape have browsed eagerly through his mom's old schoolbooks, taking a particular interest in potions and using that book as his developmental notebook of sorts throughout his time at Hogwarts?

I could buy that, but here is the bit that doesn't make as much sense to me: Snape is a DADA guy. Desperate to teach it, could have written an encylopedia on it during OWLS (remember the SWM scene was DADA, not Potions).

Why wouldn't Snape have chosen a DADA book for all of his spell development and private notes, why Potions, where he obviously has skill, but much less interest. . .?

Good question. I think that even though Snape appears to have a greater interest in Defense Against the Dark Arts as an adult, his interests may have changed over time. We know that while he was attending Hogwarts as a student, he was fascinated with the Dark Arts themselves, and Sirius mentioned in The Goblet of Fire that "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year." He had to acquire this knowledge somehow, so it's very possible that before he went to school he read some of his mother's old textbooks, including the Advanced Potions book that would one day be used by Harry. He then used the book as a log of spells he invented, such as Levicorpus, which he had to have created before or during his fifth year in order to explain why Lupin claimed it was a popular jinx at that time.

Also, although Snape's greatest desire was to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts, it can't be denied that he is interested in potions as well. During Harry's first Potions class in The Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone, Snape says, "I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses..." thereby illustrating his profound respect for the subject. Also, I would think that he enjoyed potion brewing because he must have spent ages experimenting and improving upon the methods used in the book. I don't know about the rest of you, but usually when I enjoy a subject, I'm much more likely to spend more time studying it compared to the time I would spend studying a subject that I didn't like. As for his choice of recording his notes in a potions book instead of a Defense Against the Dark Arts one, I'd assume it's because the majority of notes he made concerned potions with a few jinxes mixed in here and there.

But of course, that's just a theory.

Well, remember...we haven't SEEN his old school DADA book yet!

Haha, very true!

If the Marauders indeed got hold of the book and tried Snape's spells on him, surely, Lupin must have had some memory of the Levicorpus being scribbled in Snape's potions book, right? :p

Unless he was out doing Head Boy duties. :angel:
Or if only James or Sirius alone saw it.

PS Love the snape & his kilt.

Here's a completely random and probably completely wrong possibility but here goes...perhaps Snape didn't invent the levicorpus spell. Maybe he was sick of James and Sirius using this spell on him so he decided he would try to figure out what they were using on him. This could explain why the spell was used on him during year 5 but he wrote it in a year 6 book. Also I could see James and Sirius inventing a spell like this. I mean they did after all become animagus.

Here's a completely random and probably completely wrong possibility but here goes...perhaps Snape didn't invent the levicorpus spell. Maybe he was sick of James and Sirius using this spell on him so he decided he would try to figure out what they were using on him. This could explain why the spell was used on him during year 5 but he wrote it in a year 6 book. Also I could see James and Sirius inventing a spell like this. I mean they did after all become animagus.

Good point. Anything is possible.

Here's a completely random and probably completely wrong possibility but here goes...perhaps Snape didn't invent the levicorpus spell. Maybe he was sick of James and Sirius using this spell on him so he decided he would try to figure out what they were using on him. This could explain why the spell was used on him during year 5 but he wrote it in a year 6 book. Also I could see James and Sirius inventing a spell like this. I mean they did after all become animagus.Except Snape seems to be telling Harry that he did invent those spells:Mustering all his powers of concentration, Harry thought, Levi -
"No, Potter!" screamed Snape. There was a loud BANG and Harry was soaring backward, hitting the ground hard again, and this time his wand flew out of his hand. [edit] "You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you?" P. 604, HBP US Ed.Seems like Snape is admitting he invented both Levicorpus and Sectumsempra (which Harry also tried against him earlier in the fight.)

Here's a completely random and probably completely wrong possibility but here goes...perhaps Snape didn't invent the levicorpus spell. Maybe he was sick of James and Sirius using this spell on him so he decided he would try to figure out what they were using on him. This could explain why the spell was used on him during year 5 but he wrote it in a year 6 book. Also I could see James and Sirius inventing a spell like this. I mean they did after all become animagus.

that doesn't account for why Snape snaps at Harry for using his own spells against him... keeping in mind that he snaps after Harry tries levicopus on him, not after sectumsempra.

Originally Posted by milamber
I could buy that, but here is the bit that doesn't make as much sense to me: Snape is a DADA guy. Desperate to teach it, could have written an encylopedia on it during OWLS (remember the SWM scene was DADA, not Potions).

Why wouldn't Snape have chosen a DADA book for all of his spell development and private notes, why Potions, where he obviously has skill, but much less interest. . .?

i agree with Inkwolf here, i'm sure his DADA book would be very interesting to get a hold of. i'm sure i'm not the only one here who gets a sudden spurt of insparation (for me it's music) and scribles down the idea on the closest peice of paper i'm not about to throw out, i think Snape would be the same.



the book could have been Snape's moms, but that is just Hermione's assumption, not fact. But i highly doubt James got his grubby little hands on that book. Could you really see him letting Snivillus live down the self appointed title of "Half Blood Prince"? didnt' think so. More likely that Snape showed his new spell to some Slytherins and before long the whole school knew, with no credit going to the greasy oddball of course.

Just some thoughts:
The thing that popped into my head the first time I read SWM was that his handwriting was similar to Hermione's: cramming everything possible into the space allowed. Hermione simply thinks the HBP's handwriting looks like her own: this may be more about character than gender.

Snape's house looks like a library: would he really misplace a book? And most of Harry's "tools" have been plants.

Whatever the link between Snape's spells and James, it's not likely Lily: she and James didn't start dating until their 7th year.

Snape's mother attended Hogwarts at the same time as Tom Riddle, yet she married a muggle. Adding "Half-Blood" to a title just doesn't make sense for a Sltitheren; he should be flat-out denying it.

Snape's mother attended Hogwarts at the same time as Tom Riddle, yet she married a muggle. Adding "Half-Blood" to a title just doesn't make sense for a Sltitheren; he should be flat-out denying it.
Given his family situation, he probably wanted as little to do with his father as possible. Identifying himself with his mother's last name and heritage would be a way of denying his father, who is abussive (or, this is implied by the memories that we see). He doesn't seem ashamed of being a half-blood.

The hat suggested Slytherin for Harry, who is a known half-blood, so it would seem that it isn't necessarily a huge problem. There will, obviously, be those like Voldemort and Draco who live by the pure-blood ideals, but I'm sure that Slytherin gets a fair share of those who aren't pure-bloods as well.

The fact that the marauders knew the spells on the book as well - I know that they could stolen the book for a while just to upset Snape - can indicate that he didn't invented the spells and the improove version of the potions recipes. In that case the book could be or a second hand from his own mother, who could be a very good wicth or from any other great wizard. However I believe in the first option, his mom, since Hermione also pointed out that the hand writing looked more female than male.

Riddle me this, Snape fans:

I could buy that, but here is the bit that doesn't make as much sense to me: Snape is a DADA guy. Desperate to teach it, could have written an encylopedia on it during OWLS (remember the SWM scene was DADA, not Potions).

Why wouldn't Snape have chosen a DADA book for all of his spell development and private notes, why Potions, where he obviously has skill, but much less interest. . .?

I wonder if Potions is the only thing you could do outside of school, during the holidays? So while practising practical DADA during the holidays would have been impossible, perhaps without any foolish wand waving, students could do Potions at home? Then Snape, having nothing better to do during the holidays, could read his Mum's old textbooks before he studied them at school and experiment.

Snapes book may or may not have originally belonged to his mother. Hermoine only said that Eileen Prince was Snapes mother and that Tobias Snape was his father and a muggle to illustrate how Snape came about the name Half-Blood Prince. If she believed that the book had originally belonged to Eileen and the potions notes were hers wouldn't Hermoine have chosen this moment to illiterate her previous point?
What’s interesting is that Harry then compares Snape to Voldemort, ashamed of his parentage, giving himself an impressive new name. However Voldemort ashamed of his parentage gave himself a new name using his old name, which leaves no hint of his original parentage, and sounds quite noble. Snape however has 'half0blood before the Prince, the noble part of his new name. Why would he do that, could he be proud of his mother but ashamed of his father but not afraid to hide it?

Also the Potions book signed 'Property of the half0blood prince' so Snape had succeeded in riding himself of his old identity in that if anyone found the book (not on Snape himself) wouldn't know who it belonged to.


Now an important part of the book most are forgetting to question is how the potions text ended up in the potions cupboard and luck be a lady Harry finds it, when Harry only used found out he was going to be in potions after all that day.

I believe the book was placed there by Dumbledore. Dumbledore would have known that Slughorn would be teaching potions as he is the one that hired him in the first place. Its possible that Slughorn who had taught potions once before had always excepted 'E' level students, but its also likely that he changed the requirements so that Harry could join his class (and by proxy Ron as well), Slughorn as proven that he is capable and willing to manipulate and place incentives for people to do what he wants and they to get what they wont as while. Slughorn is kind of Slytherin we've not encountered yet, the regular ambitious kind.
Now doesn't it seem weird that there are no other 'E' level students besides Harry and Ron in a four house split class? There are likely other, just that they were informed early enough that they could still get textbooks.

Because Harry got that textbook, and Dumbledore knows that even if Ron had gotten it that Harry would have read it anyway, Harry picks up a great deal of useful potion tips and Dark magic spells. Potions tips that allowed him to win the Felix potion, the very potion that possibly saved a DA students life and allowed Harry to retrieve the memory from Slughorn that Dumbledore couldn't manage to get but still was able to formulate a working theory and plan without the definitive prove that Voldemort knew about Horcuxes. Although it can still be stipulated that Voldemort could easily have found out of other way, and Slughorns memory was tampered with, so that would already be suspicious to Dumbledore.
Getting Harry to retrieve the memory could just be a test for Harry a prelude of things to come, to see if Harry is willing to do unlawful and unethical things to an authority figure.

Another matter of important is the Order of the Phoenix chapter ' Snapes worst memory' Its bothered me for quite some time as to why that particular memory (or even the future memory of Harry viewing the Memory) is so bad as to be considered Snapes Worst memory to the exclusion of all others. I'm sure he preformed so sinister deeds as a Death Eator, or even the Sheirking Shack incident should be worse, as nearly dieing and then owing James a life debt would seem worse to me then being humiliated in front of a good portion of the school.
However now with to new knowledge for HBP its possible that that memory is the worst because it could be the first time that James used Snapes spell against him. Snape would have felt especially bad as it’s his own spell he's being humiliated with.
Another important part of that chapter is, that Snape put his memories, (memories we assume Snape does not want Harry to see) into a Pensive, a Pensive we assume he borrowed from Dumbledore. However given Harry track record with Pensive shouldn't Snape have just used a jar as we see so often in book 6? Or did Dumbledore not tell Snape about Harry's lack of respect for privacy. But wasn't it lucky that Harry did view that memory because other wise Harry would have gone right on believing his father to be a saint? It really helped put Sirius Blacks current level of maturity in book 5 in better perspective, then in book 3 or 4?

Snape begins to relies that Harry might have some extra help when at Slughorns party, Slughorn say how good Harry is at Potions
'I was just talking about Harry's exceptional potion-making! Some credit must go to you, of course, you taunt him for five years!' It’s possible that Slughorn is just buttering up Snape for something. But Snapes eyes narrow and he says that he had the impression that he hadn't managed to teach Harry anything at all. Notice how Snape words his Words, so that it sounds just like some other thing he said in another book, but I can't for the love of me remember.
This is the first instance that Snape has that something is up with Harry and Potions.
The second time is right after Harry used one of Snapes spells on Draco. Snape recognizes the spell, demanding that Harry tell him were he learnt it. Snape already suspects Harry, then Snape reads Harry mind and knows the truth. He demands Harry bring him back all of his school texts, why Snape doesn't go with Harry I can't fathom. When Harry brings back Ron potions book, Snape knows he's been cheated, but can't really do anything about it, and gives Harry detention. Now Snape could just be doing this to be vindictive but that sounds like a red herring to me. Snape seems pretty sharp.

In the Flight of the Prince after Harry has tried to use some of Snapes spells one Snape, Snape declares he is the half-blood prince, why do this now and not before? Its it just because Snape is fleeing the school, or is it because he wants to get back at Harry? Its odd that that chapter is called 'Flight of the Prince' ties nicely with 'The Pheonix Lament' doesn't it. But really why Flight of the Prince sounds noble doesn't it.
You know the line 'A Horse named Percival wouldn't quite prace like a horse named Prince'?


Now another point that not oftan brought up is the order of severity (or proirity) of the spoilers for the book.
The thrid most important spoiler is who the half-blood prince is. Thats Snape.
The second most important spoiler is who dies. Thats Dumbledore.
The most important spoiler is that Snape kills Dumbledore.
Now isn't that enxactly the same as saming the Half-Bloo Prince kills the person whos dies.
Does it sound a little diffrent now?


Rowling in her interviews even now has refused to tell us what Dumbedores Boggart would look like and what he sees in the Mirror of Erised, because even thought he is dead (yes he is very dead, bring him back in fanfiction, and I'll give you more then enought ideas as how to do it, or how even how he faked is death, but he still remains very dead.) Rowling however hints that we can find an answer in book 6. Most people have latched on to what Dumbledore says to Harry in the cave, but I personally think that that is refuring to someething else intierely, althought it might relate to his fear or disire, I don't believe that passage spells anything out for us.
Now why not just out and give us the answer, if not that its somehow related to book 7 and she hoping enought of us guess wrong. That right Rowling whats her fans to work hard, but is hoping that a lot of us it stuf wrong, because if we got stuff right, while is wouldn't be much of a surprise when she tells us the truth. However thats not to say that shes hoping none get it right but just enought to make the debate intersting.


Now for the final and last thought for those who've put up with me so far.
The second chapter Spinners End, is when Snape takes the Unbreakable vow with Narcasia. Which makes you wonder when you find out the consequences of not fullfilling that promise is, what the power a life debt holds.
In the next chapter Dumbledore takes Harry with him when he tries to get Slughorn to teach again at Hogwarts. We now that Dumbledore brought Harry with him to help convince Slughorn to teach. We can assume that Dumbledore might have already suspected that Slughorn would cave.
Now Dumbledore might also have offered Snape the DADA position before this point as while, maybe even be for the events of chapter 2. We don't know for sure but its safe to assume that this is true.
Now Rowling said in an interview once that the reason Dumbledore didn't give the DADA position to Snape was because he feared it would (or might) bring out the worst in him. (Ignoring the fact that Dumbledore gave Snape the Potions position instead and made him Head of House) is it safe to assume that Dumbledore was right that getting the DADA position brought out the worst him Snape. Snape did kill Dumbledore didn't he?
But did the DADA position bring out the worst him?

Isn't less important that Snape got the DADA position, then that Snape NOT teach Potions this year.
Think about how radiclly diffrent the book would have been.

Snape would have recognised his book and never given it to Harry. Even if by some reason he didn't he would have noticed his writing in the book,
'To his annoyance he saw that the previous owner had scribbled all over the ages, so that the margins were as`black as the printed portions.' Even after Harry switched the cover, would Snape not pass a change to take points off for disrespecting books.
Even if Snape ignored all of Harrys cheating, would Harry not have listened to Hermoine if she thought it was wierd that Snape not notice to book when he notices everything else.
Also Snape never would have given Prizes for well make potions.

So its more important that Snape be placed far away for potions so Harry can commune with the half-blood prince. One and the same.

Given his family situation, he probably wanted as little to do with his father as possible. Identifying himself with his mother's last name and heritage would be a way of denying his father, who is abussive (or, this is implied by the memories that we see). He doesn't seem ashamed of being a half-blood.

The hat suggested Slytherin for Harry, who is a known half-blood, so it would seem that it isn't necessarily a huge problem. There will, obviously, be those like Voldemort and Draco who live by the pure-blood ideals, but I'm sure that Slytherin gets a fair share of those who aren't pure-bloods as well.

Yep. But what doesn't fit for me is that he's not ashamed to being half-blood, and that's not the DE/S typical profile.

(The sorting hat didn't single Slytherin out for Harry until he said "not Slytheren." Always kinda wondered if it was having a bit of fun at Harry's expense.) :evil:

Yep. But what doesn't fit for me is that he's not ashamed to being half-blood, and that's not the DE/S typical profile.
You're right, it doesn't. Which just makes me strongly feel that there is more to the situation than is apparent in HBP. (Of course, the Devil's Advocate position would be, why wouldn't Voldemort (hem, hem, half-blood) make use of an extremely talented, and bitter, brilliant Slytherin, regardless of his heritage?)

(The sorting hat didn't single Slytherin out for Harry until he said "not Slytheren." Always kinda wondered if it was having a bit of fun at Harry's expense.)
Except that the hat reiterates its opinion in COS.

Either it was indeed his mother's, who passed it down to him out of the need for the use of secondhand books, or it belonged to Voldemort, who was also at Hogwarts about fifty years ago. It would not be the first time one of Voldemort's possessions was found lying around Hogwarts! It would also make sense for Snape to be in contact with the Dark Lord by the time he was sixteen. He might well have already joined his ranks by then! However, I don't see why Voldemort would give him an Advanced Potions book....

I don't think it wa Voldemort's, because, as you said, why would he give him a potion book? I also don't think he had joined Voldemort when he was at Hogwarts, I don't really know why, I just don't think he would do that... Although at Slughorn's party, he seemed to know a lot about what he called "elementary mistakes" when he was speaking to Malfoy (wandering alone, no back up, ect.), so maybe... Argh! I'm confusing myself :grumble: .

I personally think that it was second hand, I mean, even the Weasleys don't pass books generation after genaration, and to pass a book along a family for 50 years would be a bit... :nc:. Unless his mom got it seconhand, that's a possibility... But I don't think that really matters, anyway. I mean, the book matters now, but why would anyone really care about finding the first owner of a 50 years old book?

Just because it's 50 years old doesn't mean that Snape didn't write all the things in it. Look at Harry - he ended up with a 50 year old book from the school. Maybe Snape borrowed it from the school also? I don't know if this was posted, but what if Tom Riddle had the book when he was at school 50 years ago, and he left, and Snape came into possession of it? Maybe Tom left a few notes and Snape added more. (I dunno, just a theory)

You're right, it doesn't.Except that the hat reiterates its opinion in COS.

I got the feeling it was saying Harry would have done well anywhere, and was having some fun rattling his cage in the process. (But then I have a tendency to look for humor. :evil: )

Yeah maybe snape's family was like ron's you know hand-me-down things and he got it from his mom his family members must be very angry and at snape at all times judging by his behaviour towards eveyone(he never even smiled at malfoy)and they might be cold hearted too. But if his mom married a muggle then why did he called lily mudblood and stuff? why does he hate half-bloods and muggle borns if he himslef had a father who was muggle.

someone had a good point earlier, wondering why snape, so interested in DADA, would do all that stuff in a potions book? but the book also had some spells in it, like the one harry used on draco. i'm starting to think that maybe snape wasn't the HBP? :huh:
that sounds dumb, because he screamed it at harry but maybe he wanted to take credit for the book himself when really somebody else had written it.
and another thing that someone else (good job, who ever you are, i didn't feel like quoting that far back) said: maybe DD planted the book. seems far fetched a bit to me but parts could work. they pointed out how important it was that snape was far away from everything potions and how big a role slughorn, the HBP, and felix played.

i thought it was snapes, he was a half blood, half a prince (his mum would have just been prince)

Just sort of an interesting point...

When Snape subs for Lupin's DADA class, he takes off points from someone because, according to Snape, Kappas are most often found in Mongolia.

Then, in the Fantastic Beasts book, 'Harry' has a section on Kappas marked, saying "Snape Hasn't Read This Either,' and underlining where it says the Kappa is a Japanese water demon.

All I'm saying is...HBP put a whole new perspective on that scene of Snape's disagreement with the textbook, doesn't it? :rotfl:

Inkwolf--Holy Crow! I never thought of that before! It also casts a new light on Harry's instant assumption that he'll get a bad grade in DADA because he disagrees with Snape's opinion about fighting dementors....

Snape the Contrarian. In the immortal words of Grouch Marx, "Whatever it is: I'm against it!"

Yes, we were never told what grade Harry got, and I think it's a shame, because I feel that Snape might have actually respected his disagreement more than a paper parroting back Snape's words at him.

Yes, we were never told what grade Harry got, and I think it's a shame, because I feel that Snape might have actually respected his disagreement more than a paper parroting back Snape's words at him.

True, he does somewhat admonish Hermione for blandly repeating what the textbook says at the beginning of the year. In fact, in many ways, he is all about experimenting and figuring things out for himself than about following the established letter. That's why potions was probably so appealing to him, since it's one huge experiment anyway, and changing one little ingredient could cause dramatically different results.

One thing that I never really got though was how he came up with all these revisions to the textbook potion formulae. I could see it if it were done after he graduated from Hogwarts (as then he'd have the time and possibly the resources to do so), but while in school? Was he so good at potions that immediately knew to smash the little bean sideways instead of just cutting it open? Now that we know Slughorn was head of Slytherin at the same time, maybe it's possible that Horace gave Snape some extra leeway in Potions and allowed him the room to try out some of his own ideas after hours by letting him borrow ingredients, etc, but that doesn't seem to have been explored yet.

It is a mystery to me why Snape would be writing curses and hexes into his Potion book. The Potions notes, experiments and hints, I can understand, but surely his DADA book would be the best place to write notes on his budding attempts at Dark Arts. Unless...he was being tormented in Potions class by the Marauders and spent his time there dreaming up ways to pay them back.

I think perhaps the book may have belonged to Voldemort, anyway.

It doesn't matter who the used book initially belonged to, we know from Snape himself and all other evidence that he was the one who wrote in it. There was nothing special about the book other than Snape's notes.

I find his snarl at Harry at the end of HBP to be verrrrryyyy interesting: "And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you?" (p. 604)....After Harry attempts to use Levicorpus on Snape.

James, suuposedly so against the Dark Arts, lifted Snape's spells and used them against him, even though he hated Snape for his involvement in the Dark Arts?

And what can't be ignored in the Potions book is that, even though Snape invented spells that at least had the odor of the Dark Arts about them...he provided the countercurses... Which matches what we see in HBP: Snape the paramedic, who keeps getting called to provide the countercurse, and Dumbledore even explains it to Harry by saying that Snape knows more about the Dark Arts than Pomfrey. It's interesting how the distinction keeps getting blurred in HBP. Knowing one means being familiar with the opposite in order to be effective.

The waters are muddy, and I think many readers find that disturbing. As I read it, Snape invented a curse that he must have used where someone could observe him. Possibly he used it on one of the Marauders initially. By "Snape's Worst Memory," his own curses are turned against him. How deeply that must have stung.

Snape was obviously not only a creative and inventive person, but he also worked on N.E.W.T..- potions before taking his O.W.L's. Clever boy -- next to him, Hermione looks like a boring bookworm.

I feel that Snape wasn't ever respected or appreciated by anyone at Hogwarts. For his fellow Slytherins, he was the insufferable half-blood know-it-all, for the Marauders, well, no comment, and the teachers could have seen his great abilities, but he wasn't a funny cheeky brilliant student (he was in the same year than Evans, Black and Potter who were all of this). It seems as though he was bitter before Hogwarts and became worse and worse through the years.

The thing that popped into my head the first time I read SWM was that his handwriting was similar to Hermione's: cramming everything possible into the space allowed. Hermione simply thinks the HBP's handwriting looks like her own: this may be more about character than gender.

...the sight of him in OOTP, scribbling like mad to try to put billions of details on his test paper...well, obviously this guy spends all his time studying.

I think there is something telling here about character with Snape and Hermione connections. In many ways, I think Snape was like Hermione. That might be one reason he comes down so hard on her--he remembers what it was like to be the know-it-all that no one appreciated. I know that some might think that him identifying with her would make him go easier on her, but I think it is one of those cyclical things. He abuses students in a similar way to the way he was abused. I'm not sure if I would go so far as to call it self-loathing, but maybe. Of course, there are telling differences between the young Snape and Hermione, too. We also discussed on this thread that Snape finds memorizing and accepting everything that comes from an academic authority as inferior to actually finding out the answers for yourself.

Yep. But what doesn't fit for me is that he's not ashamed to being half-blood, and that's not the DE/S typical profile.

You're right, it doesn't. Which just makes me strongly feel that there is more to the situation than is apparent in HBP.

I agree with clkginny. Snape has never been an ordinary or average anything, much less an ordinary or average Death Eater. The contradictions add up to something that we still haven't seen entirely.

I definitely think we'll see the book again, hopefully sooner rather than later. If Harry follows Dumbledore's teaching about how each individual's personal history is important, he will soon realize he needs to go back to the Room of Requirement to retrieve the book.

I personally don't think there is that much of a mystery why Snape had a book with his notes in his classroom. I'm sure he continued to think of the classroom as his even after moving to the DADA position. He still had his office downstairs. Many people keep textbooks with their old notes in it for years. My mom still has chemistry books from when she was in college over 30 years ago.

sorry if this has been asked before, I haven't read the whole thread.
My question about his potions book is, why would he leave it behind?
It obviously had very valuable things in it (spells, ways to improve on potions, etc) so why wouldn't Snape have kept it with him? I mean, if that were my book, there's no way I would have left it in the school.
This struck me as odd as soon as Harry started reading the book and found all the alternate instructions and spells.

My idea is that he DID keep it himself, and had it somewhere in his office for some reason. One day he (or a house elf) was cleaning up, didn't realize what it was, and threw it in the cupboard with the other spares.

By this point, I'm sure Snape is expert enough in potions not to need to check his old notes himself.

I think he thought of the cupboard as his own cupboard. I doubt he would have expected students to be rummaging around in it. Can you imagine his reaction if somebody had gone over and retrieved one of his copies while he was still teaching? He probably didn't think Slughorn would go in there either, as Slughorn would have his own copy.

The book was noted in by Snape. I have no doubt about that. Snape is brilliant. It shows more in this volume than in any of the others. Which to me was terrifiying. The more I read about Snape this year the spookier it got.

I think what is throwing people off is the fact that Slughorn praises Lily's talent in potions. Lily was one of his FAVORITES. Perhaps at times he had the students team up. IF Lily and Snape teamed up they would come up with some very nice potions.

You can bet your boodie that LILY got the credit in Slughorn's eyes. I think that Slughorn was fasinated by Lily. I don't think I want to go so far to say he had a crush on her. But he favored her.

I get this theory from how he treated Harry once Harry didn't use the book any more. He more or less blamed Harry's faulty work on being in love with Ginny. That is the kind of man he is. He favors certain people. Snape would not be in the favorite's category so Lily got the credit.

About the book being 50 years old. That was Jo's red herring. BUT it LEAD to another discovery.

Hermione did her research about the 50 year old book, that LEAD to finding Eileen Prince, that LEAD to finding the marriage of Eileen Prince to Tobias Snape that lead to the finding Severius Snape was born to these two people. It is now documented that Snape was born to Eileen Prince and Tobias Snape.

I think JO was trying to show PROOF that Snape is indeed the Half Blood Prince. There should be no question about that. It is documented.

Woe to those who under-estimate Snape!

Someone else posted this on a star wars forum, I think he found a plot home.
Ok we all know that Snape is the Half-blood prince,but before Harry knows who the prince is, he asks Lupin whether it was someone they knew. Lupin reassures Harry it wasn't and then asks Harry to check the date on the Book. It was about 50 years ago. Lupin says that neither he nor any of his friends were around at that time in school. But, in book 5, Harry goes into Snape's perhensive, and sees that Snape and his dad went to school together. So how is the book 50 years old? Here are the pages.

Book 5 The whole Snape's worst memory chapter. 551 and on.

Book 6 when Harry asks lupin about the book 315
Book 6 The flight of the prince; 563

So how is the book 50 years old?

Maybe Snape got the book at a used book store? Hmmm... That would mean he didn't have a whole lot of cash in hand, or maybe he was buying something else...
*thinks about it*

Hermione says:

"It's just that I was right about Eileen Prince once owning the book. You see ... she was Snape's mother!"

Snape used his mother's potion's book, probably because his family wasn't well-to-do. Remember Snape's memory in his Pensieve? He had graying (or was it yellowing) underwear, it suggests that his clothes were old too.

Quite honestly, does it really matter who owned the book before Snape did? The only thing Hermione found out for sure is why Snape deemed himself the half-blood prince. His mother's maiden name was Prince and his father was a muggle. Naturally, he'd want to embrace the pure-blood wizard side, which is is mother's family. It was a clever play on words, too.

So how is the book 50 years old?

Page 337
...until he finally found,at the front of the book, the date it had been published. It was nearly fifty years old.

Too many questions buzzing in my mind.

How did Harry get that particular book? It does not seeem a book that anyone would leave behind. Let alone the obsessive natured Snape. It was more than a text. It was now a diary, a notebook, a record.
Surprising how the first time Snape does not teach Harry potions, a book full of information that does the job even better finds him, when he wasn't even planning on taking the **** subject. Even bigger surprise that the book is Snape's. Looks like Snape intended to continue teaching Harry all he could.
Lily was good at potions and so was Snape - both half bloods. Does it mean anything?
There seems to be a pretty big 'Dark Arts spillover' - Snape's spells got used against him, even the non-verbal ones, the Marauder's Map does not seem like harmless fun any more. There are scary similarities in the way it thinks for itself and responds with the suggestion of spell or insults for Snape and the way the diary behaved in the CoS. I hate to sound nasty, but a lot of stuff to me, points that perhaps one or more of the marauders were dark wizards too. Was that why Snape felt contempt about them?Could Lily's mind change about James be 'influenced'? Was that why Voldemort thought Harry to be more likely to defeat him? How did Snape's spell 'leak' to James? How did Fred and George get the diary and why in the world would they give it to Harry while they were still at school? Does this sound similar to Ginny's diary coming into Harry's hands? Why didn't Lily need to die? Sirius putting Snape's life into danger seems very worrisome in this context. Wormtail by all accounts doesn't seem powerful or influencial enough. Lupin could hold the key to this information.

I agree that it was his mothers and he used it. But I can't believe that she didn't write anything in it. There was never any discussion about how there were two sets of writing. And hermione say she thinks the handwriting looks like a girls!


You know who is to say that Snape's mom didn't write some of the notes herself?

JKR--who describes the handwriting in the Potions text as exactly like Snape's handwriting as he takes his DADA OWL during "Snape's Worst Memory" in OotP.

You know who is to say that Snape's mom didn't write some of the notes herself?

Nowhere is it mentioned that the handwriting varies, and we know that Snape wrote "Property of the Half-Blood Prince," several curses, and most likely the rest of the potions' notes, as "Shove a bezoar down their throats" sounds like Snape through and through. We know Snape is good at potions.

I'm not singling you out on this one, but I just really don't understand why so many people are not taking the obvious--that it's Snape's book and Snape wrote in it--at face value. It's difficult to continue a more in-depth discussion when every few posts someone asks why the book was 50 years old or if someone else wrote the notes. The book was 50 years old because it was a used book, but whoever owned it before Snape doesn't really matter because they didn't make the notes.

How did Fred and George get the diary and why in the world would they give it to Harry while they were still at school?

I think you mean the Marauder's Map. :huh:

I don't really think the Marauder's were dark wizards (minus Wormtail), but there are shades of grey at play here. The fact that James & company were using some of the spells that Snape invented does murky the waters, in my opinion. If anything, it does make Snape look a little better in context.

I think you mean the Marauder's Map. :huh:

I don't really think the Marauder's were dark wizards (minus Wormtail), but there are shades of grey at play here. The fact that James & company were using some of the spells that Snape invented does murky the waters, in my opinion. If anything, it does make Snape look a little better in context.
I did mean the Marauder's Map. I was speaking about 'not trusting anything if I can't see where it keeps its brains' Grey sure, but black too. I mean just because the Marauder's map is not possessing people and is not a horcrux, does not mean it's not bad. We see it give suggestions to Fred and George, which is nice, insult Snape and we enjoy it because it is funny and Snape is not particularly likeable at that time, but that does not hide the fact that it is an inanimate object thinking for itself.
I get the creeps when I think of the way it has come to Harry. Marauder's Map passed down from Fred and George. I can understand the affinity, but how did it come to them? and I can't imagine Fred and George giving such an interesting thing to Harry just for the heck of it. Perhaps they'd have done it as they left school as it's useful only in Hogwarts, but why while they were still there?
The Marauders are Harry's allies with James as the parent and all, but Wormtail was Dark. Could sneaky stuff like this and stealing spells and all be the reason why he was still a marauder? He kept them entertained and they didn't care enough about him to worry about origins.
I think, we have yet to see the full extent of damage that Peter has inflicted. As we write, he may still be considering options open to him. I do think that one of the Marauders was pretty actively evil. Peter didn't seem to be all that active at anything, but I guess he was the one.

Marauder's Map passed down from Fred and George. I can understand the affinity, but how did it come to them? and I can't imagine Fred and George giving such an interesting thing to Harry just for the heck of it. Perhaps they'd have done it as they left school as it's useful only in Hogwarts, but why while they were still there?

They swiped it out of Filch's filing cabinet in their first year.

They gave it to Harry because (1)-Fred, "but we decided last night, your need's greater than ours." (2)- "Anyway we know it by heart," said George. "...We don't really need it anymore." page 191 POA US paperback

I really dont think the map is a "dark" thing, the foursome made and/or improved it for their own use, probably not thinking it would get into Filch's possession. It does show the level of Fred & George's magical abilites(although somewhat misdirected) in figuring out how to work the map.

But back to the topic at hand, I believe-Snape's book,his mothers before him. Snapes handwriting. My earlier posts have my reasoning.

I haven't read through all these posts but some of the ones that I have seen have stated that Harry, Ron, and Hermione would have recognized Snape's handwriting as they've seen it everyday for several years. I can tell you that I my handwriting has changed somewhat since I was a teenager. It's always a shock to look through old notes to friends and see how I used to write. Snape's style has probably changed over the years too. The description of the notes in the text book do match the description of his writing during his O.W.L. exam.

I was wondering...Harry should have been able to recognize the writing as Snape's shouldn't he? :huh:

I mean, even though he was much younger when he wrote down the spells, Snape's handwriting could not have changed all that much... and what about Hermione and Ron? Wouldn't somebody have noticed a similarity?

He only saw Snape's childhood writing once, though for a couple of minutes. Harry still doesn't recognize Aberforth, though he saw him in a picture.

Anyway, just speaking for myself, I would never have been able to recognize a teacher's handwriting out of context. Even if it hadn't changed since they were kids. :p

And, not to be overlooked: JKR herself covered this in the books. By describing 15-year-old Snape taking his exam, she irrefutably establishes his writing at that age as small and cramped. Then, also in OotP, she describes adult Snape's lettering on the graded assignments as "spiky." The author herself has made it clear that Snape's handwriting is similar, but not the same, over the course of approximately 20 years.

A few points I've thought while reading this thread

1) Notes couldn't have been Snape's mother's or VMs (as has been suggested based on the copyright date of 50 yrs before)
A) Harry (using the notes) got a better potion than Snape did the first time he performed it for Slug. So, Snape didn't have access to the revised instructions
B) whoever wrote the notes, also wrote Half-Blood Prince on the back cover

2) Lily as the note writer
A) It's important to note that while Slug praised Harry for his nerve over using a bezoar, saying it was something Lily might have done, he doesn't say Liliy actually DID do it.
B) Also, while praising Lily's ability he never refers to her as innovative, except while at the Christmas party, at which point Slug implies an instinctive or natural ability as opposed to someone who gets to the answer thru trial and error research. At the same time Slug also points to Snape's ability and could be implying Snape was his best student ever."Instinctive, you know -- like his mother! I've only ever taught a few with this kind of ability, I can tell you that, Sybill -- why even Severus --" HBP, ch15, pg319 USA"Well. then, it's natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should jave seen what he gave me, first lesson, Draught of Living Death -- never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus --"HBP, ch15, pg319 USAThe 'even you Severus' used both times imply that Snape was Slug's best potion student ever. If Lily had been the best, Slug would have been saying 'not even Lily'
C) Lily's 'natural' or 'instinctive' talent would more likely imply that Lily got info from Snape, not Snape from Lily -- as it would imply it came easy to her without the appearance of hard work (like with Harry). I'm not partial to this idea, I think she had her own talent. Harry does seem to have her ability since he does fine when he isn't distracted or angry. Anyone think this might be why Snape was so frustrated with Harry's apparent lack of talent in Potions?
D) I do not want to rule out the possibility of a friendship between Snape and Lily. The added Lupin speech in PoAmovie says that Lily saw the 'good in everyone' - so it's possible they had a 'secret' friendship. I doubt it was a known one or James would have wanted her to explain it in SWM

3) Handwriting can change a great deal between your teens and mid-thirties. In fact your adult handwriting usually doesn't look like your handwriting as a teen, especially since handwriting is also sometimes considered to reveal a person's personality. Compare 'small & cramped' with somewhat stooped and twitchy 16-yr old Snape who was practically wordless in SWM against 'large and spikey' with sweeping, sarcastic adult Snape. Everything about adult Snape is bigger than life dramatic, while SWM Snape is more like a cornered animal - wishing to appear smaller to avoid notice. I'm very interested to find out what 'changed Snape'

4) Was Sectumsempra an invention of Snape's? I'm torn on this one as to whether Snape invented it or noted it his book when he found it elsewhere. I lean towards him finding it either in the restricted section or from a book borrowed from another Slytherin, or one of his mother's books
A) The way it was described in Snape's Potion book doesn't give us proof that he invented it (as it did with LeviCorpus) and when JKR wrote Snape's claiming of it of his during his flight, it was in a manner that it 'might' have only been about LeviCorpus

We haven't seen indications in the potions book that Snape did any work on Sectumsempra -- not saying he didn't or even that the notes weren't in the book -- but JKR has chosen not to SHOW us the notes. Also, Snape DID write 'For enemies' after the sectumsempra. IF he invented it why would he need to remind himself that it was only for enemies. Also note that there wasn't any indications for usage written after the spells we KNOW he invented.


B) We suspect Snape used it in SWM, but we don't know since it was non-verbal and didn't hurt James near as much as Harry's did Draco. That could be just because Harry 'bellowed' it while Snape didn't even whisper, but if non-verbals aren't as effective as verbals then it doesn't make sense to use them in duels.

This leaves us with either it a) wasn't sectumsempra b) was sectumsempra but Snape wasn't powerful enough c) Snape missed, only glancing James and fortunately it didn't hit someone else d) Snape had developed a 'lesser form' of sectumsempra e) sectumsempra is dependent on level of hate or intent.

I think we can toss out (e) because I'm pretty sure Snape hated or intended to hurt James every bit as much as Harry does Draco.

Regarding (a), since it was non-verbal, we don't know - but possibly it was something else since it didn't have anywhere near the effect on James as it did on Draco

About (d), it IS possible that Snape developed a 'lessor form' after finding the spell elsewhere. But IF so then JKR has chosen not to enlighten us.

For (b), I don't think any of us now believe that Snape wasn't powerful with a wand - unless SWM was the turning point and his power all comes from the level of anger he felt for the marauders - okay possible, but doubtful onless he was inventing all the other spells to give to the other Slytherins to use for pranks (again possible, might have gained him some respect even if he was a half-blood)

As for (c) I think it quite possible. I find (a) or (c) most likely with a slim chance of (b) or (d). Note that for (b), (c), or (d) Snape still could have 'found' Sectumsempra instead of inventing it.

5) Sectumsempra was found farther back in the book - IF Snape did not use Sectumsempra in SWM -- there is the possibility that he found it or developed it in response to either SWM OR even the Werewolf Prank. Just because LeviCorpus was used before 6th year doesn't mean ALL the notes are from before 6th yr.

6) One last observation - the 'property of the Half-Blood Prince was only noticed by Harry AFTEER the revealing charm. Doesn't mean it wasn't visible before, but it might have been hidden. As has been indicated, if HBP was a nickname his friends used, it never was heard by the marauders. They would have eaten it up. However, Snape recognized that the Map had something to do with Lupin based on his nickname, a nickname based on a secret the marauders should have kept quiet. But the only thing about HBP that Snape might have wanted kept quiet would have been his blood-status.

Great post, hwyla! Well considered reasoning!!!!

Is it essential that Snape or Lily copied from each other? Will it not suffice to say that they were both exceptionally good at potions and being in the same year, probably knew each other well? There may have been a good sharing kind of friendship, an invigoratingly healthy competition, or just about anything. Including a desire to avoid each other and get on with their own study. What does it matter?

Vidyut - I agree! In fact I think Lily did have natural ability and it shows in Harry. He apparently does well enough at potions if he's not anger or distracted. And I also think there MIGHT have been a bit of a 'study partner' friendship between Snape and Lily. Her reaction in SWM appears to be shock when Snape called her Mudblood.

Good posts hwyla. :tu:

Quite honestly, does it really matter who owned the book before Snape did? The only thing Hermione found out for sure is why Snape deemed himself the half-blood prince. His mother's maiden name was Prince and his father was a muggle. Naturally, he'd want to embrace the pure-blood wizard side, which is is mother's family. It was a clever play on words, too.

I agree, I don't think it actually matters who it belongs to really. Hermione wanted to try and prove that the book belonged to a girl...and what she found out was that she was sort of right by realising that Snape's mother's name was Prince...and he was half blood because she was a witch and his father a muggle. I think we are meant to assume that the book belonged to his mother though.

There may be some relevance in the fact that the book was published 50 years ago - I'm sure JKR knows that books are published at one point and then read, read and read...and republished and republished and republished!

What I've wanted to know all along is why does Snape "lose" his book. It is found in the Potions class where he used to teach - didn't he ever have a clean out? Surely as it was full of all those answers he would have been very careful not to lose it?

Posted by Freaky
What I've wanted to know all along is why does Snape "lose" his book. It is found in the Potions class where he used to teach - didn't he ever have a clean out? Surely as it was full of all those answers he would have been very careful not to lose it?

I don't think Snape lost his book at all. It is clear from his writings in the margins that Snape is very smart. He came up with shortcuts to creating potions that have been taught for ages. Being the creator of the new incantations and potioning methods, Snape would not need the book at all. He would remember them because they are a part of him.

As for the book, it was in his deserted potions classroom, sitting in the cubboard. It was ingenious really, hiding the book in plain sight. Seeing as how even the porest wizards still bought their books at the the bookshop anyway, there would rarely be a time when students would need to borrow a book from any teacher, let alone from Snape who is difficult to deal with if one is not a Slytherin. Snape would have no reason to believe that anyone would read his book notes. Furthermore, his presence in that office for years would allow him to know who had his books since he would have issued them out up until the point he no longer taught potions. Of course, it is quite possible that with his mind preocupied, Snape merely forgot about the book being on the shelf because he didn't really need it.

I am looking forward to seeing the potions book again. I think perhaps it may tie in with Lily in some manner. I think that when Harry goes back to fetch it, and I do think he will, he will find a clue to the theory that ties Snape and Lily toghether. I do think that Slughorn's mention that she was good at potions is perhaps a clue about it.

I think those ideas, hwyla, that you mention are quite interesting. This could perhaps be the tie in between Snape and Lily as you theorise, but I am not sure.

I have no doubt that the book is/was Snapes. The handwriting is is, as evidenced by the similarity between the exam handwriting and the book's notes. Why else would JKR show it to us. Also, Snape admits that it is his.

But there are many other "coincidences" that we need to focus on. I do not believe for a moment that it was a "coincidence" that Harry got the book. No, McGonnagall would not have planted it for Harry, and Snape would not have given it to Harry, so how did Harry get it? Was it Slughorn, trying to curry favor with Harry? But how did Sughorn get hold of Snapes book? Perhaps he kept it when he "helped" Snape move out of the classroom. I really don't think that it was a book that Snape would have been careless with. Someone manuevered to make sure Harry got that book, and the most likely candidate is Slughorn.

We also have to think about how Snape got the book. It is a huge clue that is repeated several times that the book is from Tom Riddle's time. Remember, JKR doesn't repeat things carelessly. I think that the book is a connector between Snape and Riddle. Remeber the descriptions of Ginny when she was using the diary in COS? She was unusually pale and drawn looking - a lot like Snape. Somehow, either LV found out about Snape's talent with the dark arts and wanted to take advantage of it, or he left it for someone who was talented in the dark arts to find - who just happened to be Snape. There is more to this "coincidence" that we need to investigate.

I also agree that we will see the book again. Harry will need it to find out more about how to defeat his newest enemy - Snape. I also have a very strong suspicion that the book may also be a horcrux, or at least a key to LV.

I also do believe that Snape and Lily were friendly at school, and was most likely that "horrible boy" that Aunt Petunia referred to. (It seems that Snape had a terrible home life, and Lily may have felt sorry for him and invited him to stay over one of the holidays at her folks house. I am not suggesting that there was anything romantic - remember, Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione didn't get romantic until book 6, even though they all spent a great deal of time at the Burrow prior to romance.) They may have spent a great deal of time working on Potions homework togehter in the library. Lily was probably one of the few folks that would have given Snape the time of day, much less any help.

Professor M - I kind of think Snape's book was planted by DD. It somewhat mirrors DD giving Harry the invisibility cloak in 1st yr. Giving him tools to work with. I think it might have been a last effort for DD to show Harry that Snape had things worthwhile to teach him, IF Harry could only figure out that it had been Snape's - which Hermione WAS on the right track to discovering.

Hwyla -

I like your thinking! Sometimes it is a more meaningful lesson if the student figures it out on his own rather than having it simply told to him. Harry's prejudice against Snape is so very strong, that the book would be the only way he would be able to learn anything from Snape. I do think that Harry's prejudice towards learning anything from Snape may have lessened a wee bit (at least before Snape killed DD), because he hid the book and made sure he could find it again - he simply didn't discard it.

But what do you think about the connection with Tom Riddle's time?

....I do think that Harry's prejudice towards learning anything from Snape may have lessened a wee bit (at least before Snape killed DD), because he hid the book and made sure he could find it again - he simply didn't discard it.Yes, but he hadn't realized the HBP was Snape yet, when he was hiding the book. I do hope he went to get it back eventually *it would seem he had to get it to finish up Potions classes.

But what do you think about the connection with Tom Riddle's time?Unfortunately we just don't have enough info yet. I'd say that Snape's Mother was at school around the same time as Tom, as I'm sure Hermione probably checked the date of the articles on the gobstone champ. But since we really don't have any idea exactly which year or house she was in, it would be a stretch to place her as a 'friend' of Tom's.

I also think she would probably be younger than Tom, but that's speculation based on her having a child born in 1960 (or '59). Tom graduated in '45. Minerva in '43 and Hagrid would have graduated in '47 if Tom hadn't framed him. But since he did, I suppose Hagrid was already an apprentice groundskeeper or gamekeeper. Only thing else I can think of is that Slug was teaching Potions and DD Transfiguration while Dippet was Headmaster. The Slug Club was in full swing, but we really don't know whether she was even a good student.

I am not convinced that the book was Snape's mums. The only things we know for sure is that is was published fifty years prior - about Riddle's time, and that it got into Snape's hands as a student, and then ended up with Harry.

I was also thinking about your thoughts about DD giving the book to Harry. I still think that is the most plausible theory, but why wasn't Snape aware. I get the impression that his books are very valuable to him (the only things in his hovel in Spinner's End that had any value.) But then again, Snape has so many books, he may not have noticed it missing.

Just FYI - on Dev of Sev Pre-HBP it was discussed at length how the book on the Adult UK cover looked almost exactly like a book on Snape's desk in movie2 when Snape is chewing out the boys for arriving by flying car. So...I hypothesize that it got from Snape's office to the cupboard relatively easily.

Snape's no longer hanging out near his office that seems to be very close to the classroom if not adjacent. He's now in a classroom that's on another floor - and had to have spent some time setting it up before Sept1. An easy enough thing for DD to have passed Snape's wards (or whatever he used to protect his office). I DO think Snape had to be suspicious by Slug's Christmas Party, but he doesn't bring it up. I can actually see DD having placed the book with Harry and then telling Snape right afterwards, so Snape doesn't find out by accident and insist on it's return.

FYI - whether the book originally belonged to his mother or it was bought at a second-hand shop like the Weasleys' doesn't really matter, except that we have indications (SWM) that he had it BEFORE his 6th year. That doesn't really prove anything, since a second-hand shop wouldn't care whether the book was required for him that year or not - unlike someplace like Flourish & Blott's that may have only ordered the required amount of books.

I find it difficult to believe that DD wanted Harry to have the book, because of Sectumsempra, do you think DD would want Harry to have access to bits of dark magic like that?

I was also thinking about your thoughts about DD giving the book to Harry. I still think that is the most plausible theory, but why wasn't Snape aware. I get the impression that his books are very valuable to him (the only things in his hovel in Spinner's End that had any value.) But then again, Snape has so many books, he may not have noticed it missing.
I disagree with you. Dumbledore would not have handed anything to Harry that either contains Dark Magic, or anything like Sectumsempra that has the potential to kill someone.

Dumbledore disapproves of any use or learning of Dark Magic, unless it's for self-defense, as is with the case of DADA in OotP. Even then, the students weren't taught Dark Magic, they learned the effects and how to counteract them if possible.

I find it difficult to believe that DD wanted Harry to have the book, because of Sectumsempra, do you think DD would want Harry to have access to bits of dark magic like that?

I know, but I have a feeling that that spell is the "dark" side of Fawkes... the countercurse for that spell "sounded almost like song...", is the countercurse, the "light" side of Fawkes? Also Dumbledore used the same healing spell himself in the Cave... could he be a Phoenix as well?

Here's a quote that I found from book 2 (CoS) that is rather enlightening..."Just because a wizard doesn't use Dark magic doesn't mean he can't, Miss Pennyfeather," snapped Professor Binns. "I repeat, if the likes of Dumbledore ---" ~ What Professor Binns said to another student - finally some actual useful information from Professor Binns...

I think the book goes to demonstrate to us the brillance of serverus snape

What about JK just screwing up with the book....??? Anyone think of that????

I have no doubt that the book is/was Snapes. The handwriting is is, as evidenced by the similarity between the exam handwriting and the book's notes. Why else would JKR show it to us. Also, Snape admits that it is his.

But there are many other "coincidences" that we need to focus on. I do not believe for a moment that it was a "coincidence" that Harry got the book. No, McGonnagall would not have planted it for Harry, and Snape would not have given it to Harry, so how did Harry get it? Was it Slughorn, trying to curry favor with Harry? But how did Sughorn get hold of Snapes book? Perhaps he kept it when he "helped" Snape move out of the classroom. I really don't think that it was a book that Snape would have been careless with. Someone manuevered to make sure Harry got that book, and the most likely candidate is Slughorn.

We also have to think about how Snape got the book. It is a huge clue that is repeated several times that the book is from Tom Riddle's time. Remember, JKR doesn't repeat things carelessly. I think that the book is a connector between Snape and Riddle. Remeber the descriptions of Ginny when she was using the diary in COS? She was unusually pale and drawn looking - a lot like Snape. Somehow, either LV found out about Snape's talent with the dark arts and wanted to take advantage of it, or he left it for someone who was talented in the dark arts to find - who just happened to be Snape. There is more to this "coincidence" that we need to investigate.

I also agree that we will see the book again. Harry will need it to find out more about how to defeat his newest enemy - Snape. I also have a very strong suspicion that the book may also be a horcrux, or at least a key to LV.

I also do believe that Snape and Lily were friendly at school, and was most likely that "horrible boy" that Aunt Petunia referred to. (It seems that Snape had a terrible home life, and Lily may have felt sorry for him and invited him to stay over one of the holidays at her folks house. I am not suggesting that there was anything romantic - remember, Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione didn't get romantic until book 6, even though they all spent a great deal of time at the Burrow prior to romance.) They may have spent a great deal of time working on Potions homework togehter in the library. Lily was probably one of the few folks that would have given Snape the time of day, much less any help.

I couldn't have put it better myself :tu:

But, just to add fat to the fire, I have recently been pondering the posibility that the potions book is a horcrux - not of V but of Snapes. Work with me on this one.

1. What is the best place to hide something - in the midst of other somethings (If Slug did give the book to Harry deliberately I am sure it was totally against what Snape wanted - remember up until this point Snape was in charge of giving out books)
2. Snapes sickly appearance throughout the books - some have thought vampire - I'm thinking someone with a split soul.
3. I have no doubt that Snape has killed, one of the acts necessary for creating a horcrux


So there we are, what do you think? Be gentle :eyebrows:

Yeah, 50 years threw me too, when I read it, I was all "But the only person we know at school then was Voldemort, so who could it be?"

Hey, do you think there was a connection between Snape's mother and Voldemort? I mean, why mention that the book was 50 years old, exactly when Riddle was at school? Why not have said 20 years old or something, and given Snape a new copy? Maybe just to keep us guessing, but do you think they knew each other?

I think the book didnt belong to Snape's mother, but rather Voldemort's instead. We know that Voldemort was there 50 years ago, but there's no proof that Eileen was there with Voldemort as well. And judging from Snape's home, i wouldnt be surprised if he had to buy his stuff second-hand like Voldemort (and the Weasleys..as well).

Even if the book used to belong to Voldemort, JKR indicated that the writing was cramped like Snape's writing...so Voldemort probably didnt write anything in the margins. I want to see the book as being important later on...but i dont see how it could...maybe harry could learn a few more spells from it?

I agree that it was his mothers and he used it. But I can't believe that she didn't write anything in it. There was never any discussion about how there were two sets of writing. And hermione say she thinks the handwriting looks like a girls!

good point!

If it is a horocurx, why was Harry so able to tear off the cover and replace it with a new cover? I got the impression you couldn't do that with Horocrux's. Also, its 50 years old...maybe it was Snape's Mother's or he bought it second hand...and maybe he didn't have enough to buy extra parchment so he wrote in his book or wrote in it so no one would take his parchment (if it was stolen). Also, I think Snape really forgot about the book because he was exicted about his new position. He isn't perfect you know. He left it in his old office with other books and that's how Slughorn got it.

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before...


But alright, I was reading these forums today, and a new idea struck me:


Everyone always talks about how it's possible that Harry's favorite potion book was Snapes, and possibly even Voldemorts (wasn't there even an editorial about it?).

Throughout HBP, Harry thought it might have been his dads book. But Slughorn always complimented him for his mom's ability.


What with that, and the "romantic connection" between Snape/Lilly, it's possible that they shared the book in their 6th Hogwarts year. Don't you thikn so? The handwriting looked like a guy's, but Hermione was VERY persistant that it could be a females. I'm positive that Lilly needs a bigger part in the books. This would bring a neat twist to it.

Your thoughts are appreciated. I'm always really hesitant to share ideas just incase someone else has said it and I'm copying them without saying so, so please don't bite my head off if you've already made a post about it :P

Thanks for reading!

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before...


But alright, I was reading these forums today, and a new idea struck me:


Everyone always talks about how it's possible that Harry's favorite potion book was Snapes, and possibly even Voldemorts (wasn't there even an editorial about it?).

Throughout HBP, Harry thought it might have been his dads book. But Slughorn always complimented him for his mom's ability.


What with that, and the "romantic connection" between Snape/Lilly, it's possible that they shared the book in their 6th Hogwarts year. Don't you thikn so? The handwriting looked like a guy's, but Hermione was VERY persistant that it could be a females. I'm positive that Lilly needs a bigger part in the books. This would bring a neat twist to it.

Your thoughts are appreciated. I'm always really hesitant to share ideas just incase someone else has said it and I'm copying them without saying so, so please don't bite my head off if you've already made a post about it :P

Thanks for reading!

interesting idea but i disagree

What with that, and the "romantic connection" between Snape/Lilly, it's possible that they shared the book in their 6th Hogwarts year. Don't you thikn so? The handwriting looked like a guy's, but Hermione was VERY persistant that it could be a females. I'm positive that Lilly needs a bigger part in the books. This would bring a neat twist to it.

Your thoughts are appreciated. I'm always really hesitant to share ideas just incase someone else has said it and I'm copying them without saying so, so please don't bite my head off if you've already made a post about it :P
Oh, don’t hesitate to share your ideas; it’s always interesting to read people’s opinions! And it doesn’t matter if others have already said the same thing, it’s very difficult to come up with something completely original because the HP fandom is so huge, but that doesn’t make the discussion any less interesting.

I agree that there was a connection between Snape and Lily, and the HBP’s book could be linked to that. The way Slughorn praised Lily’s potions prowess struck me as significant because it was repeated so many times that Harry has his mother’s talent. But we know that Harry wasn’t a natural Potions genius, he was so good at Potions because he was reading the HBP’s Potions book. So I thought that maybe Lily was so good at Potions for the same reason – she was reading the HBP’s Potions book too.

But I don’t really agree that they shared the book in the sense that some of the notes would be Lily’s. Hermione’s comment about the handwriting looking feminine seemed like a red herring to me, and it also showed how insecure Hermione can be, because she wanted the HBP to be female to show the boys that a girl can be that brilliant too. The way the Prince’s handwriting was described is exactly how Snape’s handwriting was described in OotP: they are both described as small and cramped. And since there is never any mention of a different handwriting in the book, I think that all of the notes in the book were Snape’s.

I believe the book was definitely his mother's. Perhaps she didn't pass it down to him, mayb he found it or something? Hand me downs seem popular in big wizarding families with several children. The Weasley's are a prime example. How Snape got it, is unclear to me, but it's quite obvious it's his mother's.

I was just flipping through HBP when something struck me rather odd and I wanted to know what the rest of you had to say about it.
Snape obviously treasured his own potions book very much. He had written down his own methods of making potions and his own spells in that book. Snape is also extremely possesive about his things and keeps track of them all the time. He knows the exact number of potions ingredients in his cupboard and when one of them is missing. Being as meticullous as he is how is it possible that he left his potions book behind in the dungeons? Why didnt he take it along with him to his new room? It seems so unlike Snape to leave behind something so important in a place where anyone could pick it up and read through it.I am sure he wouldnt be so careless about this book especially if it was found by Slughorn he would know Snape's secrets.
Is it possible that Snape wanted Harry to get the book and use it. Afterall the book has helped Harry a lot in his 6th year. Would it be possible that Snape left it in the dugeons hoping that Harry would get it and be able to use it? If Snape is good(which I believe he is) he might have given his book to Harry as a parting gift hoping the spells he had invented will help Harry survive.

I like it. It does seem out of place that he would leave something like that around by accident. I'm too tired to dream up a theory here, but it will be nice to see what other people think. Maybe I'll chime in something usable tomorrow! :cool:


~Chuck

I agree it is a little odd that Snape would leave something like that behind, it may be his way of helping Harry without it actually looking like he did it could have also been the excitement of gaining DADA and not thinking that anyone doing potions would not already have their text books - how was Snape to know that there would be students taking potions that would not supply their own text books, as far as we know the "spare" text books had not been used in the years that Snape had been taking potions, so why would he think they were to be used at all

But how would he know it was specifically Harry that will pick up the book and not someone else?

But how would he know it was specifically Harry that will pick up the book and not someone else?He could certainly narrow it down to a good 50/50 chance by leaving two books in the cupboard. Maybe he even put in one that was in comparatively good condition with his book so Slughorn might give the better one to Ron (who, as a Weasley, gets hand-me-downs all the time). There were, what, 12? people in Slughorn's Potions class. Probably everybody but Harry and Ron were expecting to advance to NEWT level Potions. So, Snape could easily set it up so his book would go to Ron or Harry; and Ron or Harry would definitely tell the other about a nifty potions book that lets them be better than Hermione. Besides, Snape could probably come up with a way to swap books or something.

And yes, mystic_22, I definitely think Snape wanted his old Potions book to get into Harry's hands, although more so for the big note about bezoars than any general knowledge of nifty spells.

If Snape had deliberatly made sure that Harry would get the book why would he have used legilemency after Harry performed the Sectumsempra curse on Malfoy? When he did that he found the image of the book and then demanded that Harry bring all his schoolbooks to him. If he wanted Harry to have the book why would he have done that?

It's a nice theory, but I don't feel it's correct.

First of, even though I believe that Snape isn't evil, he still dislikes Harry very much and it will never ever change. He would certainly save his life if it came to that (he actually did a few times), but actually liking him - no. Too much bad blood between them. So, he wouldn't have of left that book as a mean of helping him excell in potions. Also book didn't contain any (as far as we know) information that would help Harry defeat Voldemort, just a few nifty spells and improved ways of potion making. Yes, the book did save Ron's life, but I don't feel that Snape could have predicted that happening. Even if he knew that the bottle was poisoned, it was intended for Dumbledore, not Ron.

Secondly, there was a whole pile ("a small stock") of Advanced potion-making books, so it was a really slim chance of setting it up so Harry could get Prince's one.

Lastly, Snape did seemed somewhat surprised at Harry's excellence in potions. I think it was at Slughorn's Xmas party that he first suspected. Then, when Harry used Sectumsempra on Malfoy, was when Snape put two and two together and concluded that it was his potions book Harry was using. And i don't think suspicion he showed was feigned, it seem honest enough.

IMO, it was by sheer chance that Harry got that book. I think purpose it's serving in the books is the one of Harry getting a different perspective of Snape. That book and Snape's "stolen" memory are put there so Harry could eventually come to terms with his visceral haterd toward Snape or something along that lines.

Snape's Potions Book (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=59999&highlight=potions). Perhaps you would find that of interest?

The pensive theory is alike. That Snape purposely let Harry see his memories. I don't take either of them for granted. Simply because (and this is not a stong argument, but the above says it all for me!) it's not a Snapish thing to do. He doens't like Harry one bit, there are some dark spells in them, why give harry a notion of the spells he himself invented. He hated James when he got away with his invention. So I don't think it's character-wise a strong argument.

I believe that the only person who deliberately planted that book for Harry to use is JKR herself, :D

I agree that it would be totally out of character for Snape to do favours like that for Harry's sake.

I believe that the only person who deliberately planted that book for Harry to use is JKR herself, :D

I agree that it would be totally out of character for Snape to do favours like that for Harry's sake.

Yes you are right about Snape. Though perhaps some character did leave it there "accidentally" (accidents do happen) for Harry. Perhaps Slughorn or someone? Perhaps not. But maybe so he could let Harry shine instead of watch his feeble potions ability.

I agree with you - it does seem odd - but, I don't think Snape'd have left it there for Harry to find it - it is too nice a thing for Snape to do - however, there could be something else - after all, Snape has his own style - the 'Severus Snape's Severe Style'!

Yes, I suppose that's plausible. I think that very well may be true. Good thinking. :clap:

Its possible - bit friendly though . . . I'm sure there is something deeper in there - perhaps it was confiscated from him when he was at Hogwarts for all the nasty things he'd written in it.

If Snape had deliberatly made sure that Harry would get the book why would he have used legilemency after Harry performed the Sectumsempra curse on Malfoy? When he did that he found the image of the book and then demanded that Harry bring all his schoolbooks to him. If he wanted Harry to have the book why would he have done that?He didn't want Harry realizing he had planted the book so he was like look into my eyes and be reminded that you are too weak to learn Occlumency, etc, etc. This way, the consideration that maybe Snape maybe planted the book and knew Harry had it all along would be the last thing Harry would think of.

Well, From what happened of the book in HBP, we know that the book is still in the room of requirement.
So, perhaps Harry might need it again for some reason, perhaps to check whether Snape wrote useful things in it about Voldy's plans and all.
And also, the place where he hid the book, the huge hall, I mean, stacked with many such things.... It might be important too.. Perhaps, Voldemort has one of his horcruxes hidden there...
I mean, Voldemort needed the best place to hide his horcrux and he found this hall.
Quite possible... perhaps he has some connection with the room of requirement, perhaps it was the place where he planned his outlaws with his fellows...

I think that at one time Snape did have the potions book, BUT it was a used book when he got it, could it be Voldemort's potions book he got ahold of?:evil::clap:

I think it might be Voldemort's. Wasn't he a prefect and everything? That's what we believe:slyth:

Actually, I think that at some point Lily Potter had the HBP Potions Book.

Evidence:
1) Snape doesn't have his Potions book now. Since he is older than Lily, he may have given it to her.

2) Heminone, who's right about a lot of things, says that the HBP's writing looks like a girl's.

3) Slughorn says that Lily was good at Potions. Perhaps she used Snape's hints--or she provided the hints herself. There has been no evicence that she was good at potions up until HBP that I know of.

Thoughts?

2) Heminone, who's right about a lot of things, says that the HBP's writing looks like a girl's.Snape may have been in touch with his feminine side. - Explains the longish hair? I know a few guys with "girly" writing. And no, they're not gay.

I think snape was exceptionslly gifted much like the marauders. The book gives a lot of insight to what sort of a kid he was. He was probably off in his own world creating new spell and potions not really caring for anyone around him. He was an introvert

Has anyone considered that Snape could have used Felix Felicis in order to insure that Harry got the potions book? Snape knew that Harry would not have a textbook in advance of the class since Harry did not expect to take N.E.W.T. potions due to his "E" grade. But, Snape as a professor would also know that Ron would not have a textbook in advance for the same reason. So Snape cannot just leave the special potions book and a spare in Slughorn's classroom and just hope that Harry gets it instead of Ron. Snape also cannot just give Harry the book because of the image Snape has to maintain as being loyal to Voldemort.

Snape knows that Harry needs all the skills he can get to fight Voldemort and, if Snape knew that Slughorn has a soft spot for Lily, Snape would worry that Slughorn would go easy on Harry and Harry would not learn as much. So Snape needs to make sure Harry gets the special potions book in order to make sure that Harry learns N.E.W.T. potions properly, as well as learning the additions in the special book.

So Snape takes a swig of Felix Felicis, leaves the special book and a spare in the potions classroom, and lets the Felix do the rest. And accordingly, Harry gets the right book, Slughorn just happens to be giving a bottle of Felix Felicis to whomever brews the best Draught of Living Death, the HBP just happens to have improved on that potion, Harry just happens to follow the Prince's alternate directions, Harry wins the Felix, Harry uses the Felix to get Slughorn's memory which helps confirm Dumbledore's suspicion of seven Horcruxes, and Harry uses the Felix to protect his friends during the battle at the Astronomy Tower. Not bad.

I just cannot see Snape leaving the special potions book around for anyone to get since it contains both better directions and dangerous spells like Sectumsempra. Unless he had a guarantee that it would go to Harry and my best guess for a guarantee is if Snape took some Felix Felicis before leaving the books in Slughorn's classroom so that Harry would get the right book.

I think that the book was Voldemorts and that Snape was lent the book by the school and that he had to give it back when he left school? that's how Harry got ahold of it.:grumble: :p

Maybe it was snapes mothers potions book and she was the real potions brain not snape.Maybe snapes mother wrote in the book on how to make the potions better then snape got it .

Maybe it was snapes mothers potions book and she was the real potions brain not snape.Maybe snapes mother wrote in the book on how to make the potions better then snape got it .

Eileen frankyl doesn't seem like dark arts type, I mean she married a muggle didn't she? So what are the possibilties that she was in love with dark arts in her hogwarts years. Besides if she was strong woman then she would have surely used a spell on her husband once in a while instead she looks like the one who was scared

If Snape was really the potions master then why would these hints be added to the book, they would be in his head, wouldn't they? Yes, this leads me to believe he copied off others work to find better ways to do things. It's strange he'd leave the book behind with dark spells in it though...as though hoping someone would appreciate it, as if he's desperate for this title to be importantant and noticed, much like Voldemort...isn't it...

If Snape was really the potions master then why would these hints be added to the book, they would be in his head, wouldn't they? Yes, this leads me to believe he copied off others work to find better ways to do things. It's strange he'd leave the book behind with dark spells in it though...as though hoping someone would appreciate it, as if he's desperate for this title to be importantant and noticed, much like Voldemort...isn't it...

It is...but we know Snape was very much into Dark Arts and stuff, and who would develop a spell like that besides Snape? Who would be so much into dark art? and if he really did copy any spell I think it could be Levicorpus then SectumSempra cause noone in their right mind would develop a spell like that...

There is only ONE spell in the entire book that can be considered 'dark'. This is mainly a book of what Ron described as hexes the Twins would do and corrected potions.

The description of the handwriting matches the description of Snape's handwriting on his OWL exam in Snape's Worst Memory. It IS Snape's. The spells and potions corrections and all the work involved.

The possible exception is the ONE spell that is NOT accompanied by cross-outs and re-writes showing his work to figure out a new spell. Which Harry pointed out that the 'Prince' might have therefore just copied down. Sectumsempra. The only 'dark' spell.

If Snape was really the potions master then why would these hints be added to the book, they would be in his head, wouldn't they? Yes, this leads me to believe he copied off others work to find better ways to do things. It's strange he'd leave the book behind with dark spells in it though...as though hoping someone would appreciate it, as if he's desperate for this title to be importantant and noticed, much like Voldemort...isn't it...
Harry indicates there is a lot of writing that is crossed out as well. My take what that there was some trial and error involved, and Snape used his book to record the variuosu things he tried, and crossed out stuff that did not work so well.

Maybe it was snapes mothers potions book and she was the real potions brain not snape.Maybe snapes mother wrote in the book on how to make the potions better then snape got it .
This is very unlikely because we know that Eileen Prince was/is a pureblood, married to Tobias Snape, a Muggle. Let me remind you of this part of the book:
Harry bent low to retrieve the book, and as he did so, he saw something scribbled along the bottom of the back cover in the same small, cramped handwriting as the instructions that had won him his bottle of Felix Felicis, now safely hidden inside a pair of socks in his trunk upstairs.
This Book is the Property of the Half-Blood Prince.
First of all - why would Eileen call herself the Half-Blood Prince when she's a pureblood? Actually, why 'Prince' instead of 'Princess?' This concludes that this book may have been Eileen Prince's, but the handwritten instructions/the Half-Blood Prince is Severus Snape's.

I think that the book originally did belong to his mother, but the corrections, and spells in it were added later by him. But I also think that he had help coming up with the improvements to the instructions. Namely Lily.

I think that the book originally did belong to his mother, but the corrections, and spells in it were added later by him. But I also think that he had help coming up with the improvements to the instructions. Namely Lily.

Could be, there is a high possibilty of Lily helping him out but I do think that snape's book orignally belonged to his mother

Maybe it was snapes mothers potions book and she was the real potions brain not snape.Maybe snapes mother wrote in the book on how to make the potions better then snape got it .
But there is never any mention of a different handwriting in the book. The handwriting in the book is described as small and cramped, which is exactly how Snape’s handwriting was described in Snape’s Worst Memory when he was writing his DADA exam. It doesn’t seem very likely that somebody else wrote some of the notes in the book.

If Snape was really the potions master then why would these hints be added to the book, they would be in his head, wouldn't they? Yes, this leads me to believe he copied off others work to find better ways to do things.
We know that as an adult Snape is an exceptional potions maker, he’s able to make the Wolfsbane Potion for example, which only few wizards can make. It doesn’t seem likely to me that he only seems a great potions maker because he was copying somebody else’s work.

Also, it doesn’t seem strange to me that Snape wrote all this down in his potions book. It seems that he has improved the potions instructions by a trial-and-error method. The book was full of corrections and improvements, and it would be very difficult to try to remember everything he has once tried that didn’t work so well.

It's strange he'd leave the book behind with dark spells in it though...as though hoping someone would appreciate it, as if he's desperate for this title to be importantant and noticed, much like Voldemort...isn't it...
I never really got that impression. If he wanted his old nickname to be noticed I think he should have done something more effective than leave his old schoolbook in a cupboard in his own classroom. It wasn’t very likely that someone would have found the book, since it seems quite unusual that Hogwarts students don't have their own books.

But when Snape got the job od DADA why didn't he move the location of book...I mean what if Slughorn would have read it or DD would have found it? If he really cared about the book then he should have taken it with him!

Originally Posted by Ryzen
It's strange he'd leave the book behind with dark spells in it though...as though hoping someone would appreciate it, as if he's desperate for this title to be importantant and noticed, much like Voldemort...isn't it...
The books(TMR's diary and the potions book) however, are very different. TMR/LV had the book for (1)his soul, and (2)to show he was the heir of slytherin. Who would be dazzled by a book that simply showed how to brew potions. What is more "impressive"?
Also, I'm wondering why Snape even called himself the Half-Blood Prince. Draco hates Hermione because shes muggle-born, and Lucius (who was supposedly his friend) is 1000 times worse.
So who did he share this nickname with? I think I have an answer:Lily Evans
Notice that the two dark spells(levicorpus)(sectumsempra) both appear in Snape's worst memory and in his book. Also, Harry dosen't find/use the spells until later in the year (levicorpus chapter 12)(sectumsempra chapter 24) and it appears Snape dosent use them until a little before the O.W.L. exams. Snape had plenty of time to get into a feud with lily, (which some people believe the memory indicates) and after that, he wouldn't care not to use dark magic because there was no positive force(lily) to keep him from using it.
then, because the book wasn't important, he left it there and forgot.

I think that the book was Voldemorts and that Snape was lent the book by the school and that he had to give it back when he left school? that's how Harry got ahold of it.:grumble: :p I had a similar thought. The book is Seeing as though the young Snape was apparently Voldemorts protege (sp) he could have passed down his copy of the potions book to him. This would mean the cramped writing could be Voldemorts. Seeng as though Tom gave himself the moniker of 'Lord', he very easily could have given his next inline a royal moniker as well.

I had a similar thought. The book is Seeing as though the young Snape was apparently Voldemorts protege (sp) he could have passed down his copy of the potions book to him. This would mean the cramped writing could be Voldemorts. Seeng as though Tom gave himself the moniker of 'Lord', he very easily could have given his next inline a royal moniker as well.

I ddoubt that the book beloged to LV. Since I don't think LV would be that fond of Snape to pass him down a book like this. Besides I think it was Snape's writing because the writing in Snape's worst memory is described the same way as the writing in snape's poiton book.

I ddoubt that the book beloged to LV. Since I don't think LV would be that fond of Snape to pass him down a book like this. Besides I think it was Snape's writing because the writing in Snape's worst memory is described the same way as the writing in snape's poiton book.

I was just going to point that out too! In SWM, when Harry see them doing their owls, he goes past Snape's desk, and looks at his writing, and describes it as being small and cramped, or something like that. The writing was simular in the HBP potions book. Of course, I doubt Harry would have remembered Snape's writing in the penseive. But he was 15 when he took his owls, and he was around the same age when he received that book. My guess is that the book was his mothers, and it was passed down to him. I thoght that was already confirmed in the book? Didn't Hermione look up, and found that Snape's mom, Eileen Prince, attended Hogwarts, 50 years ago? It would make sence if it was hers.

This is going to go completely against my previous post.......:D
When Harry holds out the bezoar for Slughorn. "Just like his mother, she had the same intuitive grasp of potion making, Its undoubtably from Lily he gets it" Now, before he says this, he looks down at it for a full 10 seconds. What is he thinking?? From the highlighted portion of his statement, is he remembering someone else doing the same thing? Lily perhaps? Was Lily's potions abilities that similar to Snapes, that Slughorn continuously references her? If this is the case, is the cramped writing hers? Is this intimating that Snape and Lily shared the potions book, that they sat together in potions class? With all of Slughorns praises of Lily, when we know its Snapes book, is he inadvertantly telling us they're was some kind of relationship? ? I just find it suspicious that Lily's name is constantly being brought up by Slughorn, when referencing Snapes work.

i agree with you, hobbitseeker.

i stand highly with hobbitseeker.

"It says on page 637 (US Edition)

[Hermione] 'It's just that I was right about Eileen Prince owning the book. You see...she was Snape's mother!'

I think that explains it pretty well."

[QUOTE=FizzingWhizbee1]

i stand with hobbitseeker.

"It says on page 637 (US Edition)

[Hermione] 'It's just that I was right about Eileen Prince owning the book. You see...she was Snape's mother!'

I think that explains it pretty well."

This is going to go completely against my previous post.......:D
When Harry holds out the bezoar for Slughorn. "Just like his mother, she had the same intuitive grasp of potion making, Its undoubtably from Lily he gets it" Now, before he says this, he looks down at it for a full 10 seconds. What is he thinking?? From the highlighted portion of his statement, is he remembering someone else doing the same thing? Lily perhaps? Was Lily's potions abilities that similar to Snapes, that Slughorn continuously references her? If this is the case, is the cramped writing hers? Is this intimating that Snape and Lily shared the potions book, that they sat together in potions class? With all of Slughorns praises of Lily, when we know its Snapes book, is he inadvertantly telling us they're was some kind of relationship? ? I just find it suspicious that Lily's name is constantly being brought up by Slughorn, when referencing Snapes work.

That's an interesting idea, but Snape's feelings towards Lily would have to be drastically different for that to ever happen. Sharing books is something either the painfully forgetful or poor have to do. Would Snape ever want to be seen as either? He can't help using his mother's book maybe but that?
Lily also seems like a proud girl from what we saw of her. I just don't see their noses pressed into the same book.

There is only ONE handwriting throughout the entire book. So ALL the notes in the book are written by the same person who wrote 'Property of the Half-Blood Prince' (since it's exactly the same handwriting). So, unless someone else is actually the Half-Blood Prince, there is no reason to suspect that anyone other than Snape wrote in the book.

And the description of the handwriting matches the description of Snape's handwriting on his DADA OWL. Does he just 'happen' to have exactly the same handwriting as his Mother? or Lily? or Voldy?

WHY would it NOT be Snape who wrote in the book? We KNOW he's brillant at Potions. He can tell exactly what's wrong with a potion just by color or smell. We've seen him do it throughout the series. I can't imagine any reason WHY people want to accredit the book to someone else.

As to the idea that it might be Voldy's - why would Tom have spent his time inventing 'prank' spells in 6th and 7th year, when he's already entered the Chamber of Secrets (where I bet there was more than just a Basilisk) and killed 4 people by that time? Why suddenly invent a spell to make people's toenails grow long at the same time he's looking for info on horcruxes?

And Snape recognizes the SectumSempra (whether he invented it or just wrote it down). I can understand the possibility that Voldy invented that spell (or wrote it down), but LILY???

Please someone explain WHY they think the writing CAN'T be Snape's?

Harry indicates there is a lot of writing that is crossed out as well. My take what that there was some trial and error involved, and Snape used his book to record the variuosu things he tried, and crossed out stuff that did not work so well.

I agree with this. This is very logical. Snape is a potion master. He undoubtedly experimented with potions to make them better or easier. This is not difficult to understand. His work is in the margins. Somewhere along the line he started making up spells and hexes. He is not the first student to do that.

If Eileen Prince owned the book it just means that Snape came from a modest home and used his mothers second hand book. It could be some of his mothers potions, as he may have inherited his skill from her. There is nothing wrong with a book that has improved potions tips in it. The one spell does indicate a dark side to Snape.

I agree with this. This is very logical. Snape is a potion master. He undoubtedly experimented with potions to make them better or easier. This is not difficult to understand. His work is in the margins. Somewhere along the line he started making up spells and hexes. He is not the first student to do that.

If Eileen Prince owned the book it just means that Snape came from a modest home and used his mothers second hand book. It could be some of his mothers potions, as he may have inherited his skill from her. There is nothing wrong with a book that has improved potions tips in it. The one spell does indicate a dark side to Snape.

You are right. He is not the only student to make up spells. Correct me if I am wrong, didn't James Potter invent the spell that makes a person hang upside down?

While not a dark spell, it was used to ridicule someone.

You are right. He is not the only student to make up spells. Correct me if I am wrong, didn't James Potter invent the spell that makes a person hang upside down?

While not a dark spell, it was used to ridicule someone.
No, "Levicorpus" was from Snape's book, and in "Flight of the Prince," Snape says that James was always using Snape's own spells against him. Lupin, on the other hand, tells Harry in "A Very Frosty Christmas" that Levicorpus was just a "trendy" spell that alot of people used at that time, though James was the only one we see in the canon using it.

No one really knows how James learned the spell, since it is a silent spell and he wouldn't have overheard Snape saying the word. Some have speculated that he got his hands on Snape's book at some point.

Hermione makes the point to Harry and Ron that though they use the spell as a laugh, they have seen people abusing it, such as the DEs at the Quidditch World Cup who hung the sleeping Muggle family upside down. She says that if Harry's father used the spell on someone, then he was abusing it.

We don't really know if the Marauders ever made up their own spells, though they did write the Marauder's Map which shows Harry the "Dissendium" spell to open the one-eyed Witch statue and enter the tunnel to Hogsmeade.

Hi, I'm new here, and registered with this forum just because of Snape's Potions book.

I don't doubt that the book belonged to his mother and all of the info discussed here. I do have serious questions about why the book were there in the first place though.

Since this was Snape's old book, and he was the previous potions teacher, I would have thought he would keep that book as far away from the students as possible. In his office, instead? Even so, once Slughorn took over, the book ended up in the pile of used books for students to access if they didn't have their own copy. What teacher in their right mind gives a student a book with so much writing in it? Every school I've been to that had similar used books always got rid of the ones with "too much" writing.

I guess the reason I'm here is to discuss why the book was even allowed to be used as an extra textbook in the first place? It sure says irresponsible teacher to me! Slughorn didn't even bother to look at the books before he designated them for student use? Something's not right there...

I guess the reason I'm here is to discuss why the book was even allowed to be used as an extra textbook in the first place? It sure says irresponsible teacher to me! Slughorn didn't even bother to look at the books before he designated them for student use? Something's not right there...

I think Snape used that book when he was quite young. I think when he became a teacher he had books left behind by students and just kept spares in his cupboard in case a student showed up without his book. I don't think this was a particular treasure of Snapes that he wanted to save and put somewhere carefully away. It just got tossed onto the shelf with the other books.

When Slughorn took over, he had no reason to inspect Snapes old spare books. I am sure he assumed if Snape had them available for students then they must be fine.

No, "Levicorpus" was from Snape's book, and in "Flight of the Prince," Snape says that James was always using Snape's own spells against him. Lupin, on the other hand, tells Harry in "A Very Frosty Christmas" that Levicorpus was just a "trendy" spell that alot of people used at that time, though James was the only one we see in the canon using it.

No one really knows how James learned the spell, since it is a silent spell and he wouldn't have overheard Snape saying the word. Some have speculated that he got his hands on Snape's book at some point.

Thanks for the information. I couldn't remember the spell's name or the circumstances surrounding it. James probably used the invisibility cloak and sneaked a peek while Snape was right there reading it! Another reason, I'm sure, Snape loathed James. I wonder how talented James really was or if he was just "stealing" from Snape.

I think Snape used that book when he was quite young. I think when he became a teacher he had books left behind by students and just kept spares in his cupboard in case a student showed up without his book. I don't think this was a particular treasure of Snapes that he wanted to save and put somewhere carefully away. It just got tossed onto the shelf with the other books.

When Slughorn took over, he had no reason to inspect Snapes old spare books. I am sure he assumed if Snape had them available for students then they must be fine.


I agree, he used it as a research book while he was in school, and kept it around just as a reference. He probably has other books that he keeps his current potion research in. It probably just got mixed in with the other books over time. But it does show that no one updates the textbooks in the magical world. 50 years is a long time to have a book without any updates. Don't they add any thing new?

I think the book belong to Severus Snape's mother. She was excelent potions maker. Snape inherit it from her and got the book as well.And she did many remark in the book, based on her own discoveries in Potions.

He, Snape, was very talanted in Charms [spells]. Like Lily Evans. :lol:

In first year Snape was the one who knew more spells than anyone in seventh.

And he knew the Potions very well [like Lily Evans. :lol:], thanks to his [Snape's] mother.

Isn't that a little odd that he has all these little spells that essentially fall into the category of Charms in his Potions book? Do you suppose he scribbled spells into any of his other textbooks? And if not, why the Potions book--if he was supposedly so into the Dark Arts, I would think his textbook for that class would bear more of his mark.

I think the book belong to Severus Snape's mother. She was excelent potions maker. Snape inherit it from her and got the book as well.And she did many remark in the book, based on her own discoveries in Potions.
We know that Snape is an excellent potions maker - he’s able to make the Wolfsbane Potion that few wizards can make, and he seems to know what exactly went wrong with a student’s potion just by looking at it. But I don’t think we have any proof that Eileen Prince was great at potions making. If the book originally belonged to her she must have been good enough to make it into the NEWT class, but that doesn’t mean that she would have been as great as the HBP was. Harry and Ron are in NEWT class too, and while they’re pretty good at the subject they can’t come up with their own corrections to the potions instructions like the HBP did.

We know that Snape is an excellent potions maker - he’s able to make the Wolfsbane Potion that few wizards can make, and he seems to know what exactly went wrong with a student’s potion just by looking at it. But I don’t think we have any proof that Eileen Prince was great at potions making. If the book originally belonged to her she must have been good enough to make it into the NEWT class, but that doesn’t mean that she would have been as great as the HBP was. Harry and Ron are in NEWT class too, and while they’re pretty good at the subject they can’t come up with their own corrections to the potions instructions like the HBP did.

You are right. We don't have any evidence that she was great Potion maker, but my statement based on
1. Snape's mother was a witch
2. the Potion book was something 50 year old [about the time Snape's mother in the school]
3. based what Hermione thinking, the writing in the book belong to girl. [which maybe not, becase Snape's "writing was minuscule and cramped"
Snape use this book as it's own very much. He write down in the book his new invented spells.
Snape maybe bought this book as second hand...
It might be belong to... Voldemort ??? :scared:

Yes, it might very well have been his mother's copy, but that was Hermione's assumption. In my opinion, Snape probably brought it from a secondhand store because it seems very likely that a half-blood like him wasn't exactly rich.

Sounds right, but then again the Weasleys are pure-blood with no money. Also, yo u hear about Hermione being low on my considering she is a muggle-born.

I believe the book belonged to Eileen. It's 50 years-old and a hand-me down from his Mother. The way it was described, it sounds like it was tattered. Snape doesn't seem like the type of Student/Professor to allow his books to become worn or tattered. This may be another reason he flipped out when Harry used his spells. Severus was the one who created the spells/curses. The reason he flips out at Harry is because the book has a sentimental value to him. It was his Mothers, so in a way he is fiercely protective of the book and it's contents.

i thought that maybe Snape had a few bad memories when he had the book and that maybe the book was like a friend to him so he wouldn't want Harry to touch it because he doesn't like Harry.

I'm not sure that the potions book belonged to Snape's mother. The timing is right but I don't see why she would have kept the book.

Think about it how many of your text books did you keep if they didn't have anything to do with your work. I think the book may have belonged to some one else.

I'm not sure that the potions book belonged to Snape's mother. The timing is right but I don't see why she would have kept the book.

Think about it how many of your text books did you keep if they didn't have anything to do with your work. I think the book may have belonged to some one else.

It is written in the book that the book indeed belonged to Snape's mother, Eileen Prince...

'No-no- Harry, I didn't mean that!' she said hastily, looking around to check that they were not being overheard. 'It's just that I was right about Eileen Prince once owning the book. You see....she was Snape's mother!'

Except that Hermione has no actual 'proof' that the book really once was Eileen's. She's guessing. Mostly because she was want ed to prove that the HBP was a girl or at least that the book somehow involved a girl. Hermione is highly invested in being 'right'. Remember her boggart - fear of failure.

We just do not have canon that says the book WAS Eileen's. It could be, but it also could be one from the second-hand store.

Note that it's pretty certain that Eileen was NOT the potion's whiz Snape is - so those are probably HIS improvements. Not only do we not have evidence that she was spectacular at potions, but that's a 'dearth' of evidence when Hermione specifically went looking for a potions genius. In other words - she went looking for a potions genius and came back with gobstones. It's pretty likely therefore that Eileen was good enough for NEWTS but not a genius.

And Slughorn would have taught Eileen. IF she had been the original genius then when talking about Harry's genius to Snape, he would have said something like Harry's Draught of Living Death was better than even your mother's - not better than 'yours'.

Actually - that's proof that the book wasn't improved when Snape took the class. He wasn't using the improved instructions. And if the instruction were his mother's and she was a genius then he would have used them and had a Draught of Living Death that was every bit as good as Harry's was.

Well, Hermione was relaying information here. When she does, it's as good as canon usually.

It is most significant that we were led to Eileen Prince by a Potions book. Snape’s Mother. This brings Snape into the realm as “Somebody’s Son” instead of an isolated 1 dimensional nemeses or man unto himself.
The discovery of Eileen Prince also rounds out book 6 when we see a different light on the mother’s of the thre main nemesis of the series, Merope Gaunt Riddle, Narcissa Malfoy, and Eileen Prince. Throughout the book Harry is making a connection to the past. Seeing how the choice of people affect the generations of the future.

When Harry first started using the book, he wanted to idealize the “The Prince”. He even wanted to imagine it might have been his Father.

I think it’s interesting that Hermione poses the idea that it could have been a woman because as she sees (Snape’s) handwriting as feminine. When Hermione and Harry debate this idea, Hermione is insulted at first because she thinks that Harry doesn’t want to acknowledge that a woman can be that brilliant. Harry rightly rebuts the accusation, citing his experience with Hermione. She knows he knows better about the power of Witches. But Harry is still incredulous of seeing a feminine influence behind the book, “I just know” he says, “that it’s a bloke.” As it turns out, they were both right.

The Prince’s Advanced Potions book is about 50 years old when Harry gets his hands on it and this is a generation earlier than his father’s time at the school. No one in Harry's circle of friends, seems to have ever heard of the “Prince.” Seeing no possible way it could be his dad, he is stymied.

After all is said and done and Hermione puts it all together after Snape’s declaration to Harry out on the lawn- it seems obvious that it would have been Snape’s book for more than on reason.

The first glaring clue– um Hello Harry- it’s a POTIONS book, written in by a student who was really, really good at potions and dark spells– even inventing some that became famous that Harry had seen his father use on Severus Snape.

Now, let’s pretend for one moment that Harry had a functional speaking relationship with Severus Snape (Ok, now stop laughing.) Who should he have asked first about a potions book from the past owned by someone that had knack for dark arts? We understand why asking Snape was not an option for Harry, but it’s interesting that he even considered his own father as an answer but never even gave a thought to Severus Snape.

Second glaring glue (for me anyway) is the handwriting. It’s right there under his nose, "scribbled" black and white. Harry had seen Snape’s handwriting all over his papers for the previous 6 years yet it still did not register with him to even compare a letter of it. He even saw the teen Snape’s identical “small,"... "miniscule and cramped” handwriting when Harry saw Snape writing answers in the O.W.L. (Snape's Worst Memory.) Now I know Harry didn’t have a video camera in that pensieve, he couldn’t go back and compare for himself- yet I think it’s important that Harry never once considered the fact that it the Prince could have been Snape at all.

In his desperate need to envision the "Prince" as someone he could admire, Harry completely ignored Snape altogether as an answer to the “Prince’s” identity. He didn’t want the truth he wanted a fantasy. This is reminiscent of the same mental block he applied against Snape in the Order of Phoenix. In his search for a savior for Sirius (whom he believed to trapped by Voldemort,) Harry completely “forgets” that Snape is a member of the Order whom he could have approached about the problem– long before Harry was trapped in Umbridge’s office. (Harry also forge about his 2 way mirror as well!)

Once again Harry- a fault that is not entirely his own- refuses to even consider Snape as someone he could respect or revere for anything and this blindness continually hinders him.

Back to the book. Although this copy of Advanced Potions it may have been too old to have had been purchased new by Snape as a student, it was used by him. Since Snape the student was poor, it’s not a stretch to imagine he might have acquired a used copy. If we infer that Spinner’s end is Snape’s childhood home, it was his mother’s house first. From the walls - It’s reasonable to assume his mother liked books, and kept a lot of them. She could have kept her own Potions copy and handed it over to her son. In any event, the book passing between the mother and son is important, as a symbol of something that links Snape directly to his Mother and to his past.

This is a symbolic parallel between Snape and Harry. Because Snape is (er was) the Potions Master and DADA expert this book is a symbol of his true potential and identity. Like Harry's mom gave him his eyes, and his power to love... This book represents Snape's power being handed down from mother to son in the form of knowledge.

I also think that Jo did not bring up Eileen Prince just to explain Snape’s nickname and leave it at that. Jo mentions so very little about Eileen- but she was a huge crux to the mystery of Snape. Oh- No. Rowling has answered a riddle with a enigma.
Books 6+7 are a two parter, Rowling ended 6 by bringing up another mystery: Who is Eileen Prince and how does she figure in Snape’s world?

Is she the real secret behind Snape’s loyalties throughout the series?

I think so.

I think I'll give this discussion a go.

Well I know that the books was Snape's but I think that All the writing in the book wasn't his.

Maybe the reason why Slughorn compared Harry's work to Lily's while he was using the book is because it was Lily's work. I think she wrote the revisons to the potions and he wrote the spells. They could have been working on the book together sometime in thier sixth year.

Severus had the book before, because he got it from his mother and two spells that he invented were already in use in SWM.

It could be that in the sixth year, while in a NEWT class with Lily, they became friends and worked on the book together.

But you might ask why all the writing is the same? Well I'm certain he would ahve been able to change it to another writing.

Besides if the book was in Snape's writing wouldn't Harry have spotted it. He is thier teacher and he marks thier papers all the time. he must have given them a lot of rude comments on his papers when they were returned. Also Harry saw Snape's writing in SWM. How come he didn't recognise it.

Wouldn't it be cool if when Harry goes to Godric's Hollow, he finds Lily's Copy of Advanced Potion Making with the same corrections as the ones in Snape's book.

That would leave a huge question mark over his head.

It is most significant that we were led to Eileen Prince by a Potions book. Snape’s Mother. This brings Snape into the realm as “Somebody’s Son” instead of an isolated 1 dimensional nemeses or man unto himself.
The discovery of Eileen Prince also rounds out book 6 when we see a different light on the mother’s of the thre main nemesis of the series, Merope Gaunt Riddle, Narcissa Malfoy, and Eileen Prince. Throughout the book Harry is making a connection to the past. Seeing how the choice of people affect the generations of the future.

When Harry first started using the book, he wanted to idealize the “The Prince”. He even wanted to imagine it might have been his Father.

I think it’s interesting that Hermione poses the idea that it could have been a woman because as she sees (Snape’s) handwriting as feminine. When Hermione and Harry debate this idea, Hermione is insulted at first because she thinks that Harry doesn’t want to acknowledge that a woman can be that brilliant. Harry rightly rebuts the accusation, citing his experience with Hermione. She knows he knows better about the power of Witches. But Harry is still incredulous of seeing a feminine influence behind the book, “I just know” he says, “that it’s a bloke.” As it turns out, they were both right.

The Prince’s Advanced Potions book is about 50 years old when Harry gets his hands on it and this is a generation earlier than his father’s time at the school. No one in Harry's circle of friends, seems to have ever heard of the “Prince.” Seeing no possible way it could be his dad, he is stymied.

After all is said and done and Hermione puts it all together after Snape’s declaration to Harry out on the lawn- it seems obvious that it would have been Snape’s book for more than on reason.

The first glaring clue– um Hello Harry- it’s a POTIONS book, written in by a student who was really, really good at potions and dark spells– even inventing some that became famous that Harry had seen his father use on Severus Snape.

Now, let’s pretend for one moment that Harry had a functional speaking relationship with Severus Snape (Ok, now stop laughing.) Who should he have asked first about a potions book from the past owned by someone that had knack for dark arts? We understand why asking Snape was not an option for Harry, but it’s interesting that he even considered his own father as an answer but never even gave a thought to Severus Snape.

Second glaring glue (for me anyway) is the handwriting. It’s right there under his nose, "scribbled" black and white. Harry had seen Snape’s handwriting all over his papers for the previous 6 years yet it still did not register with him to even compare a letter of it. He even saw the teen Snape’s identical “small,"... "miniscule and cramped” handwriting when Harry saw Snape writing answers in the O.W.L. (Snape's Worst Memory.) Now I know Harry didn’t have a video camera in that pensieve, he couldn’t go back and compare for himself- yet I think it’s important that Harry never once considered the fact that it the Prince could have been Snape at all.

In his desperate need to envision the "Prince" as someone he could admire, Harry completely ignored Snape altogether as an answer to the “Prince’s” identity. He didn’t want the truth he wanted a fantasy. This is reminiscent of the same mental block he applied against Snape in the Order of Phoenix. In his search for a savior for Sirius (whom he believed to trapped by Voldemort,) Harry completely “forgets” that Snape is a member of the Order whom he could have approached about the problem– long before Harry was trapped in Umbridge’s office. (Harry also forge about his 2 way mirror as well!)

Once again Harry- a fault that is not entirely his own- refuses to even consider Snape as someone he could respect or revere for anything and this blindness continually hinders him.

Back to the book. Although this copy of Advanced Potions it may have been too old to have had been purchased new by Snape as a student, it was used by him. Since Snape the student was poor, it’s not a stretch to imagine he might have acquired a used copy. If we infer that Spinner’s end is Snape’s childhood home, it was his mother’s house first. From the walls - It’s reasonable to assume his mother liked books, and kept a lot of them. She could have kept her own Potions copy and handed it over to her son. In any event, the book passing between the mother and son is important, as a symbol of something that links Snape directly to his Mother and to his past.

This is a symbolic parallel between Snape and Harry. Because Snape is (er was) the Potions Master and DADA expert this book is a symbol of his true potential and identity. Like Harry's mom gave him his eyes, and his power to love... This book represents Snape's power being handed down from mother to son in the form of knowledge.

I also think that Jo did not bring up Eileen Prince just to explain Snape’s nickname and leave it at that. Jo mentions so very little about Eileen- but she was a huge crux to the mystery of Snape. Oh- No. Rowling has answered a riddle with a enigma.
Books 6+7 are a two parter, Rowling ended 6 by bringing up another mystery: Who is Eileen Prince and how does she figure in Snape’s world?

Is she the real secret behind Snape’s loyalties throughout the series?

I think so.

Excellent post! :clap:

It is most significant that we were led to Eileen Prince by a Potions book. Snape’s Mother. This brings Snape into the realm as “Somebody’s Son” instead of an isolated 1 dimensional nemeses or man unto himself.
The discovery of Eileen Prince also rounds out book 6 when we see a different light on the mother’s of the thre main nemesis of the series, Merope Gaunt Riddle, Narcissa Malfoy, and Eileen Prince. Throughout the book Harry is making a connection to the past. Seeing how the choice of people affect the generations of the future.

When Harry first started using the book, he wanted to idealize the “The Prince”. He even wanted to imagine it might have been his Father.

I think it’s interesting that Hermione poses the idea that it could have been a woman because as she sees (Snape’s) handwriting as feminine. When Hermione and Harry debate this idea, Hermione is insulted at first because she thinks that Harry doesn’t want to acknowledge that a woman can be that brilliant. Harry rightly rebuts the accusation, citing his experience with Hermione. She knows he knows better about the power of Witches. But Harry is still incredulous of seeing a feminine influence behind the book, “I just know” he says, “that it’s a bloke.” As it turns out, they were both right.

The Prince’s Advanced Potions book is about 50 years old when Harry gets his hands on it and this is a generation earlier than his father’s time at the school. No one in Harry's circle of friends, seems to have ever heard of the “Prince.” Seeing no possible way it could be his dad, he is stymied.

After all is said and done and Hermione puts it all together after Snape’s declaration to Harry out on the lawn- it seems obvious that it would have been Snape’s book for more than on reason.

The first glaring clue– um Hello Harry- it’s a POTIONS book, written in by a student who was really, really good at potions and dark spells– even inventing some that became famous that Harry had seen his father use on Severus Snape.

Now, let’s pretend for one moment that Harry had a functional speaking relationship with Severus Snape (Ok, now stop laughing.) Who should he have asked first about a potions book from the past owned by someone that had knack for dark arts? We understand why asking Snape was not an option for Harry, but it’s interesting that he even considered his own father as an answer but never even gave a thought to Severus Snape.

Second glaring glue (for me anyway) is the handwriting. It’s right there under his nose, "scribbled" black and white. Harry had seen Snape’s handwriting all over his papers for the previous 6 years yet it still did not register with him to even compare a letter of it. He even saw the teen Snape’s identical “small,"... "miniscule and cramped” handwriting when Harry saw Snape writing answers in the O.W.L. (Snape's Worst Memory.) Now I know Harry didn’t have a video camera in that pensieve, he couldn’t go back and compare for himself- yet I think it’s important that Harry never once considered the fact that it the Prince could have been Snape at all.

In his desperate need to envision the "Prince" as someone he could admire, Harry completely ignored Snape altogether as an answer to the “Prince’s” identity. He didn’t want the truth he wanted a fantasy. This is reminiscent of the same mental block he applied against Snape in the Order of Phoenix. In his search for a savior for Sirius (whom he believed to trapped by Voldemort,) Harry completely “forgets” that Snape is a member of the Order whom he could have approached about the problem– long before Harry was trapped in Umbridge’s office. (Harry also forge about his 2 way mirror as well!)

Once again Harry- a fault that is not entirely his own- refuses to even consider Snape as someone he could respect or revere for anything and this blindness continually hinders him.

Back to the book. Although this copy of Advanced Potions it may have been too old to have had been purchased new by Snape as a student, it was used by him. Since Snape the student was poor, it’s not a stretch to imagine he might have acquired a used copy. If we infer that Spinner’s end is Snape’s childhood home, it was his mother’s house first. From the walls - It’s reasonable to assume his mother liked books, and kept a lot of them. She could have kept her own Potions copy and handed it over to her son. In any event, the book passing between the mother and son is important, as a symbol of something that links Snape directly to his Mother and to his past.

This is a symbolic parallel between Snape and Harry. Because Snape is (er was) the Potions Master and DADA expert this book is a symbol of his true potential and identity. Like Harry's mom gave him his eyes, and his power to love... This book represents Snape's power being handed down from mother to son in the form of knowledge.

I also think that Jo did not bring up Eileen Prince just to explain Snape’s nickname and leave it at that. Jo mentions so very little about Eileen- but she was a huge crux to the mystery of Snape. Oh- No. Rowling has answered a riddle with a enigma.
Books 6+7 are a two parter, Rowling ended 6 by bringing up another mystery: Who is Eileen Prince and how does she figure in Snape’s world?

Is she the real secret behind Snape’s loyalties throughout the series?

I think so.

:wow: Excellent post Bscorp. :clap: Alright a few things that stood out was the comparison between heritage being handed down from mother to son and the fact that Eileen might be the reason why Snape is loyal (if he is). I like the point where you compare Narcissa, Eileen and Merope, but what is the significance of that? :huh:

"Narcissa, Eileen and Merope, but what is the significance of that..."

One important lesson is for harry to see where his nemeses come from. He is on a quest that began with the sacrifice of his own Mother. HBP and I believe Deathly Hallows will bring this "cycle of life" full circle. Eileen Prince is important because it rounds out the total picture of what kind of sacrifices mother's make for their sons and how it affects future generations. No matter if they're bad guys or good guys.

It's easy for Harry to understand how a "good" mother can affect someone. We can all grasp that. But it's harder for us to see the more complicated relationships of people we don't like. This is on of the veins in the root of prejudice.

I might argue that “Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince.” is all about Moms– just not Harry’s.

There are 3 nemesis mothers we learn something new about in HBP; Narcissa Malfoy, Merope Riddle, and Eileen Prince are all the mothers of a “bad guy” to a various degree (note that I am not arguing that Snape or is “good or bad” only that he is perceived as a nemesis way by Harry.)

The "black hats" in fiction are often described as people “only a mother can love.” Mothers are blamed for their failures, and almost always held up as the central force in dynamics of psychology and family. When the media wants to humanize a victim – or a perpetrator we hear things like, “that is someone’s son (or daughter,)” In doing this they paint a sympathetic portrait of someone as not just an individual, but as someone who was once young, who was cared for, whose existence depended on and coexisted with other humans. This is someone we can identify with. Most of us can relate- in some way to the influence of a mother and/or family, even if it’s not the same kind of family, or even a loving family, we react to the idea by comparing or contrasting our own thus reminding us of our own humanity.

In “Order of the Phoenix” Harry feels sympathy for young Snape for the first time ever, not just because he sees him as a bullied kid but also because he sees Snape as somebody's son- a boy crying in the corner. Harry identified with Snape. He saw him in a way he’d never been allowed before.

Then in “Half Blood Prince” Harry feels pity for Draco Malfoy when he realized Draco’s deal with Voldemort has put Draco’s family in peril- and that Draco was trying to save his Mother’s life. He thinks of Draco crying about saving his family.

(Personally, I believe that under the IrmaPince/Prince theory, these two visions are going to come to a Head in Deathly Hallows- maybe they already have on that Tower.... but that's another thread.)

These glimpses into his “enemies” mother/son relationships affirm Harry’s humanity as much as it does the humanity of Malfoy and Snape. It also serves as affirmation of what happened to Riddle as he chose to destroy his own humanity. Harry doesn’t know it yet but acquiring this new perspective is one of his key task in Half Blood Prince and I believe it will help him in Deathly Hallows.

Yeah it must have been his mothers.

"

One important lesson is for harry to see where his nemeses come from. He is on a quest that began with the sacrifice of his own Mother. HBP and I believe Deathly Hallows will bring this "cycle of life" full circle. Eileen Prince is important because it rounds out the total picture of what kind of sacrifices mother's make for their sons and how it affects future generations. No matter if they're bad guys or good guys.

It's easy for Harry to understand how a "good" mother can affect someone. We can all grasp that. But it's harder for us to see the more complicated relationships of people we don't like. This is on of the veins in the root of prejudice.

I might argue that “Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince.” is all about Moms– just not Harry’s.

There are 3 nemesis mothers we learn something new about in HBP; Narcissa Malfoy, Merope Riddle, and Eileen Prince are all the mothers of a “bad guy” to a various degree (note that I am not arguing that Snape or is “good or bad” only that he is perceived as a nemesis way by Harry.)

The "black hats" in fiction are often described as people “only a mother can love.” Mothers are blamed for their failures, and almost always held up as the central force in dynamics of psychology and family. When the media wants to humanize a victim – or a perpetrator we hear things like, “that is someone’s son (or daughter,)” In doing this they paint a sympathetic portrait of someone as not just an individual, but as someone who was once young, who was cared for, whose existence depended on and coexisted with other humans. This is someone we can identify with. Most of us can relate- in some way to the influence of a mother and/or family, even if it’s not the same kind of family, or even a loving family, we react to the idea by comparing or contrasting our own thus reminding us of our own humanity.

In “Order of the Phoenix” Harry feels sympathy for young Snape for the first time ever, not just because he sees him as a bullied kid but also because he sees Snape as somebody's son- a boy crying in the corner. Harry identified with Snape. He saw him in a way he’d never been allowed before.

Then in “Half Blood Prince” Harry feels pity for Draco Malfoy when he realized Draco’s deal with Voldemort has put Draco’s family in peril- and that Draco was trying to save his Mother’s life. He thinks of Draco crying about saving his family.

(Personally, I believe that under the IrmaPince/Prince theory, these two visions are going to come to a Head in Deathly Hallows- maybe they already have on that Tower.... but that's another thread.)

These glimpses into his “enemies” mother/son relationships affirm Harry’s humanity as much as it does the humanity of Malfoy and Snape. It also serves as affirmation of what happened to Riddle as he chose to destroy his own humanity. Harry doesn’t know it yet but acquiring this new perspective is one of his key task in Half Blood Prince and I believe it will help him in Deathly Hallows.

Two good posts, man! :clap: I definitely like the idea that the mothers are in there because of the lesson that it shows Harry. I never really paid that too much attention before. As for who's the book is, I don't know, and it probably doesn't matter, but I seem to lean more towards the book being Snape's mom's book before it was his.

Two good posts, man! I definitely like the idea that the mothers are in there because of the lesson that it shows Harry. I never really paid that too much attention before. As for who's the book is, I don't know, and it probably doesn't matter, but I seem to lean more towards the book being Snape's mom's book before it was his.

It definitely matters that it was Eileen's book before Snape's in that it introduces us to Eileen Prince. Hermione went through a lot of trouble to track down that name and yet we get so very little information about her. Considering that we've heard so much about the other mothers- I think we will hear something more about Eileen.

It is important- I believe that it is 3 ('bad guy') mothers Harry learns about. Besides the obvious connection to the #3 - which symbolize strength and power. There there is Celtic myth of the "Three Mothers" or the "Triple Goddess" The Maiden, The Mother, The Crone. This is a bit of a sidestep from the potions book, but it's interesting to note and helps solidify in my mind another behind the text reading of why the Potions book assuredly belong to Snape's Mother.


The Maiden represents enchantment, inception, expansion, the promise of new beginnings, birth, youth and youthful enthusiasm.

Mother The Mother represents ripeness, fertility, sexuality, nurturance, fulfillment, stability, power and life.

Crone The Crone represents wisdom, repose, death, and endings.

(Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess)

Merope is The Maiden. We see the birth of Tom Riddle, though she isn't a virgin- she had youthful enthusiasm when she escaped from her father's house to elope and risked deceiving Riddle Sr. into loving her.

Narcissa is The Mother and she made the vow to protect her son, she is attractive (sexuality,) and married to power.

The only way to complete the TRIO is with Eileen Prince- whom I believe to be the Crone. The word Crone is derivative of Carrion- "the decaying flesh of dead animals." Prince is the mother of a "Death Eater." is If she were still alive would be the oldest and most knowledgeable of the the trio- perhaps very aware of death and and possibly even knew Tom Riddle in school and we are coming to the ending of the series.

Just something to think about.

it was definitely his mom's

Slughorn never paid attention to Snape. Not only was the singular time which Slughorn showed Snape any sort of praise in front of Snape, he forever spoke of Lily as having all the talent. However, we well know that if Slughorn was teaching the class, she couldn't possibly be all that brilliant - look at Hermione! Even she couldn't get the potions just right. But Harry could, and remarkably as well as Lily. So how did Lily perform so well? Gee . . . Snape's Advanced Potions book was the thing telling Harry the proper way to brew the potions. Yet Snape was never praised, Lily was. Hmmmm . . . . .

This is one of a few strange instances which make me think Snape and Lily were friends in school. The way I feel about literature is that everything is motivated. You don't include something unless it constitutes meaning, and Rowling seems to live by this rule. So why is it that Lily received all of Slughorn's praise when we can clearly see that Severus Snape is an extremely accomplished wizard? Let's explore this . . . Slughorn, as it was said, values those who show talent and will go places. Severus showed talent, but did Slughorn think he would go places? He probably saw a quiet, moody, ugly kid with talents that would maybe land him a job one day but nothing valuable.

That's fine and dandy, but WHY did Lily do so well if everyone was being taught by Slughorn? I think the Gryffindors, like Harry, shared Potions classes with Slytherins when Severus was in school, and Lily and Severus, as first years, were brought together as friends under similar circumstances: they were alone. Lily was Muggle-born so I can picture a similarity to Hermione and how she started off alone. Severus as Severus wouldn't have friends as a general principle because kids would be prejudiced to his appearances and most likely attitude.

I picture a Potions class where both enter the classroom but end up stuck sitting with each other because everywhere else is taken. Remember, there seems to be about 7 students per gender per year per house, so 6 girls and 7 boys from Slyhtherin and 6 girls and 7 boys from Gryffindor could have paired off, leaving 1 boy from Slytherin and 1 girl from Gryffindor: Lily and Severus. Perhaps because Lily was so nice and could see past people's faults, Severus was able to open up to her. I'm sure this would be okay for the first two or three years or so, but once their fourth year came along, I bet she became more popular and he less so.

Now, here's where the theory becomes tricky -- Rowling's problem with telling time and numbers. Severus' Advanced Potions book is for his sixth year. Yet the spells he invented were known as far back as prior to the OWLs in the 5th year because James used Levicorpus on Snape and Snape used a particularly controlled Sectumsempra on James. So, unless this is a mistake on Rowling's part when it comes to time, and she has admitted that she made a mistake previously that was hard to fix in the last book, then let's assume that Snape was skipped ahead a year in Potions. Assuming this is so, then we should think Slughorn would have thought higher or Snape, yet Lily still remains in his mind.

So, my theory is this: Snape was better than Lily at Potions as he knew how to edit his Potions book and best even Slughorn while presumably in his 5th?/6th? year of Potions. Lily and Snape, as Potions partners and after a while, friends, would help each other, particularly Lily relying on Snape to figure out the proper way to brew the potions. Snape did the hard work and Lily just performed well enough. There's nothing against that - the same thing happened to Hermione in HBP - as abilities in Potions go as far as knowing how to follow directions properly. So Snape could forgive her. But let's assume that after a while he got tired of Slughorn giving Lily all the credit when she relied on Snape. Supposing they were skipped a year and took Advanced Potions in their 5th year - their friendship becomes strained, and along the way as Snape is creating his little spells (possibly aided by Lily's abilities with Charms, which has yet to be expanded on by Rowling), Lily accidentally lets slip to James Potter the Levicorpus charm (because it's non-verbal, so how else did he learn it, especially if Snape invented it). Perhaps James was taunting Snape and Lily stuck up for him by admitting Snape is so brilliant he's already created his own spells, then uses Levicorpus for example. This is towards the end of 5th year. Lily and Snape are no longer really good pals because he feels betrayed, and so then the Snape's Worst Memory happens and, with Lily trying to stick up for him again (perhaps this happened often), Snape got angry because he's tired of her holding his hand, and so he calls her a Mudblood, ties are severed, there we go. It becomes his worst memory after a while because he thinks of that day as the complete and whole end to his friendship with her. Thus, they enter their sixth year at Hogwarts, perhaps Lily stops taking Potions or they have better books for 7th year Potions, and they go separate ways with Lily shacking up with James, adding insult to injury for Severus, and she continues to gain all the praise in Potions despite his more inherent magical abilities.

Which leads me back to his harsh attitude towards Hermione! Why should he behave as he does towards Hermione, other than she's friends with Harry and Muggle-born? He doesn't act harsh with Ron. So perhaps it's because she's Muggle-born. But that is silly because A) there are other Muggle-borns in the school and there are no reports of him being downright cruel to others, just Harry, Hermione, and Neville for the most part. So, supposing my theory about Snape and Lily is correct, Snape looks at Hermione as this new Lily walking around. Lily was a Muggle-born, she was very smart and nice, but a book-smart intelligence just like Hermione. Hermione couldn't crack the Advanced Potions book, and at one point gives the whole clue to the entire book: she makes a comment that she never had problems when Snape was teaching Potions!!! Ding-dong!! That's a sign. It was because his directions were always posted onto the board magically by him!!! And so, the reason Snape was so annoyed with Harry for using the HBP book for Advanced Potions was not so much because it was HIS old book, but because A) he wasn't sharing what he knew with others and therefore was cheating, and B) it distinctly reminded him of Lily and how she benefited from Snape's brains unjustly! Therefore, since Snape has never made any reference to Lily, only James, perhaps the scene when Snape calls Harry a liar and a cheat in the bathroom was an indirect reference finally to Lily!!!

Just to add to what you said about Snape being better at Potions than Lily, but not receiving credit...I don't have the books with me so I can't quote this, and I'm not even sure if I'm remembering correctly, but I'm pretty sure Slughorn said something to Harry during the Christmas party that made me think that even though he was always praising Lily (and even though she may have been very good at Potions, like Hermione is), Snape was still better than Lily. I think (I may be wrong) he said something along the lines of "Not even you, Severus..." (about the Felix Felicis I think?)

Sorry if that makes no sense. I just feel that throughout the book, Slughorn was saying stuff like, "Lily was great at Potions, etc. but not even you, Severus [created Felix Felicis like Harry did]"

I feel that the "Not even you" is putting Snape's Potions' ability higher than Lily's, even though she may have also been good at Potions.

Just to add to what you said about Snape being better at Potions than Lily, but not receiving credit...I don't have the books with me so I can't quote this, and I'm not even sure if I'm remembering correctly, but I'm pretty sure Slughorn said something to Harry during the Christmas party that made me think that even though he was always praising Lily (and even though she may have been very good at Potions, like Hermione is), Snape was still better than Lily. I think (I may be wrong) he said something along the lines of "Not even you, Severus..." (about the Felix Felicis I think?)
It was about Draught of Living Death.

'Well, then, it's natural ability!' shouted Slughorn. 'You should have seen what he gave me, first lesson, the Draught of Living Death - never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus -'

And there I guess it means that Snape wrote these hits about adding a clockwise stir and so on later...if he couldn't produce it on a first attempt...

Bscorp you're very observant I have to say ;) Your posts are very interesting.

I thought that that book came to Snape from his mother. But then I thought if it was his mothers' property, then when he owned it, why was it left in Hogwarts? :hmm: then if it was not his mothers, but some second-hand book, who was its previous owner?

Maybe it was just some used book that he bought. Whatever his mother did that Snape is so proud of he liked to show off to other people. Well, actually Snape doesn't strike me as a showoff. Maybe he just wrote it all over his Potions book to boost his wilted self-esteem.

There are several things I find interesting about the Potions book. It had spells written in it, so why were they written in a Potions book instead of a DADA book? Secondly, the spell Levicorpus was used a year before Snape would have normally taken Advanced Potions. Unless this was a mistake by JKR, or the curriculum was different back then, we haven't seen a student advance separately from his peer group. Hermione would surely have been put forward if that was a standard policy.

I think that Snape used the Potions book almost as a diary, for some reason. The scribbles and cross outs indicate that he worked on the spells in the same time period as when he had the book. This discrepancy between the time of the writing and the time of the class would indicate he had the book with him at least a year before the class he needed it for.

I kind of wonder how Snape figured out those spells in the first place. Did he simply keep repeating a jumble of syllables until something actually happened?

Apparently he knew latin?

At least enough to realise the words in spells had meanings and to take previous spells appart and put them back together in other ways. LeviCorpus comes from Leviosa combined with Corpus (a latin word used often enough in the muggle world - especially in law (Habeus Corpus), but probably in other areas as well, such as medical.

Especially if he practically inhaled books as a child. Britain has a history of teaching the classics - at least in boarding schools - that includes latin. And therefore you are probably more likely to hear bits of it used in public speeches or written articles (usually as a quote) than many of us would in the USA. However, it's an interesting problem to solve, just where Snape might have learned enough latin. I have wondered in several directions - was Tobias often in trouble with the law? Or was it something Snape studied on his won specifically because he was interested in healing (muggle medical texts?)? Either way, had to be before he was 15. Could be he could just figure out the meaning from previous spells.

------

An interesting thought I had the other day while wondering why IF the Marauders had stolen Snape's book (a way James could have learned LeviCorpus) then why didn't Remus recognize it when Harry spoke about the Prince's book. It seems obvious enough that the name Half-Blood Prince was hidden - it was only noticed after Hermione did the revealing spell. But why would Remus not recognize it from Harry's description about how much it had helped him in potions class?

And I realised that I tend to think of it as it is NOW, not as it was in the process. Remus would not recognize it as a book that would be helpful to Harry in potions class because none of the potions experiments had yet been done in 5th year when they would have had it (IF they ever had it). We know from Slughorn that Snape had not perfected his Draught of Living Death improvements when he first made it for class, which would not have been until 6th year began.

I had an interesting thought, in HBP page 308, Madam Pince finds Harry and Hermiome in the library talking and she sees the potions book with the writing on it. She says" - what have you done to that book, you depraved boy."

"It isn't the library's, it's mine!" said Harry hastily, snatching his copy of Advanced Potion-Making off the table as she lunged at it with a claw like hand.

"Despoiled!" she hissed. "Desecrated! Befouled!"

What if she really is Eileen Prince and she recognized her old text book and was yelling at Harry because he dared to touch her (and Snapes) old textbook.

What if she really is Eileen Prince and she recognized her old text book and was yelling at Harry because he dared to touch her (and Snapes) old textbook.

It's possible but, as the librarian, it's also possible that she was just angry that someone had written in what she thought was a school book. The Scary Librarian is an infamous stereotype after all. :lol:

[QUOTE=hwyla;4472920]Apparently he knew latin?

At least enough to realise the words in spells had meanings and to take previous spells appart and put them back together in other ways. LeviCorpus comes from Leviosa combined with Corpus (a latin word used often enough in the muggle world - especially in law (Habeus Corpus), but probably in other areas as well, such as medical.

Especially if he practically inhaled books as a child. Britain has a history of teaching the classics - at least in boarding schools - that includes latin. And therefore you are probably more likely to hear bits of it used in public speeches or written articles (usually as a quote) than many of us would in the USA. However, it's an interesting problem to solve, just where Snape might have learned enough latin. I have wondered in several directions - was Tobias often in trouble with the law? Or was it something Snape studied on his won specifically because he was interested in healing (muggle medical texts?)? Either way, had to be before he was 15. Could be he could just figure out the meaning from previous spells.
QUOTE]

Hadn't thought of that. Great idea. Maybe Snape attended a Muggle boarding school before Hogwarts. I'm not sure what age children can go off to boarding school in England, but I did know a girl while I was in college who started boarding school around age 9 (third grade in the US).

Or his mother taught him. JKR did say some wizard children are homeschooled before attending Hogwarts.

At least enough to realise the words in spells had meanings and to take previous spells appart and put them back together in other ways.

I wondered about that. It seems like the hardest part of inventing spells is knowing Latin so it seems kind of strange that creating spells is viewed as something that's incredibly difficult. What makes a spell? Is it really as simple and cutting and pasting spells/words together? All you'd have to do is look up the meaning of particular Latin terms and start yelling out incantations... :huh:

An interesting thought I had the other day while wondering why IF the Marauders had stolen Snape's book (a way James could have learned LeviCorpus) then why didn't Remus recognize it when Harry spoke about the Prince's book.

Assuming they actually did steal his book, maybe it was a Sirius/James thing? Remus and Peter weren't always in on their shenanigans so maybe he just wasn't present?

Dark Days - I agree that's also possible, but I was surprised when I realised that Remus would never think of that particular book as helpful with potions even if he had seen it back then - because none of the potions corrections were actually in the book yet.

[QUOTE=mwbashful18;4449252]Slughorn never paid attention to Snape. Not only was the singular time which Slughorn showed Snape any sort of praise in front of Snape, he forever spoke of Lily as having all the talent. However, we well know that if Slughorn was teaching the class, she couldn't possibly be all that brilliant - look at Hermione! Even she couldn't get the potions just right. But Harry could, and remarkably as well as Lily. So how did Lily perform so well? Gee . . . Snape's Advanced Potions book was the thing telling Harry the proper way to brew the potions. Yet Snape was never praised, Lily was. Hmmmm . . . . .

I believed that Snape was admired for his potions ability but it's just that he wasn't as good as Lily. Slughorn did say " Not even you...". So that says that he was very good and he came close to matching her but he still couldn't.

And from the looks of it Snape was also in the slugclub.





Now, here's where the theory becomes tricky -- Rowling's problem with telling time and numbers. Severus' Advanced Potions book is for his sixth year. Yet the spells he invented were known as far back as prior to the OWLs in the 5th year because James used Levicorpus on Snape and Snape used a particularly controlled Sectumsempra on James. So, unless this is a mistake on Rowling's part when it comes to time, and she has admitted that she made a mistake previously that was hard to fix in the last book, then let's assume that Snape was skipped ahead a year in Potions. Assuming this is so, then we should think Slughorn would have thought higher or Snape, yet Lily still remains in his mind.

If Snape had no friends we can assume that he would read ahead. I don't think Snape skipped a year. Snape is already a year older than the rest of the people in his year according to wikipedia. If Snape skipped a year that would mean he was two years older than all the first years when he came into Hogwarts. That's far too many years older, it would be odd.

So, my theory is this: Snape was better than Lily at Potions as he knew how to edit his Potions book and best even Slughorn while presumably in his 5th?/6th? year of Potions. Lily and Snape, as Potions partners and after a while, friends, would help each other, particularly Lily relying on Snape to figure out the proper way to brew the potions. Snape did the hard work and Lily just performed well enough. There's nothing against that - the same thing happened to Hermione in HBP - as abilities in Potions go as far as knowing how to follow directions properly. So Snape could forgive her. But let's assume that after a while he got tired of Slughorn giving Lily all the credit when she relied on Snape. Supposing they were skipped a year and took Advanced Potions in their 5th year - their friendship becomes strained, and along the way as Snape is creating his little spells (possibly aided by Lily's abilities with Charms, which has yet to be expanded on by Rowling), Lily accidentally lets slip to James Potter the Levicorpus charm (because it's non-verbal, so how else did he learn it, especially if Snape invented it). Perhaps James was taunting Snape and Lily stuck up for him by admitting Snape is so brilliant he's already created his own spells, then uses Levicorpus for example. This is towards the end of 5th year. Lily and Snape are no longer really good pals because he feels betrayed, and so then the Snape's Worst Memory happens and, with Lily trying to stick up for him again (perhaps this happened often), Snape got angry because he's tired of her holding his hand, and so he calls her a Mudblood, ties are severed, there we go. It becomes his worst memory after a while because he thinks of that day as the complete and whole end to his friendship with her. Thus, they enter their sixth year at Hogwarts, perhaps Lily stops taking Potions or they have better books for 7th year Potions, and they go separate ways with Lily shacking up with James, adding insult to injury for Severus, and she continues to gain all the praise in Potions despite his more inherent magical abilities.

Okay here how I explain this. I think Lily and Severus only became close friends in the 6th year and part of the 7th ( after SWM). I say this because Lily said that she wouldn't date James and she went and did the opposite. So i'm assuming she did help Snape after that scene.

"I don't need help from a filthy mudblood like her.."

Sounds to be like he really needs help but wouldn't admit it.

Also have you ever consisdered that the praises Lily gets are justified and she really is better at potions that Snape.

I know Snape said that he was the Half Blood Prince but when you look back, Snape only claims the spells to be his, he never said the potions work was his.

As far as I can recall Snape only figured out that harry was using his book when he saw Harry use one of his spells. He thought it odd that he was doing well in potions but he didn't notice that Harry's pefect work was like his.

That's because the ptoions work was never his.

I've said this before but everyone ignores me but I still believe that Lily did the improvements to the potions and she shared them with Snape. She could have been patners with him and just whisper instrustions to him. Similar to how Hermione helps Neville.

When Harry goes Godric's Hollow I believe he would find that Lily's Potions book, if it survived will have the same inprovements to the potions and he will then put it togehter from there.

Hermione was half right when she said the writings looked like a girl's.


Which leads me back to his harsh attitude towards Hermione! Why should he behave as he does towards Hermione, other than she's friends with Harry and Muggle-born? He doesn't act harsh with Ron. So perhaps it's because she's Muggle-born. But that is silly because A) there are other Muggle-borns in the school and there are no reports of him being downright cruel to others, just Harry, Hermione, and Neville for the most part. So, supposing my theory about Snape and Lily is correct, Snape looks at Hermione as this new Lily walking around. Lily was a Muggle-born, she was very smart and nice, but a book-smart intelligence just like Hermione. Hermione couldn't crack the Advanced Potions book, and at one point gives the whole clue to the entire book: she makes a comment that she never had problems when Snape was teaching Potions!!! Ding-dong!! That's a sign. It was because his directions were always posted onto the board magically by him!!! And so, the reason Snape was so annoyed with Harry for using the HBP book for Advanced Potions was not so much because it was HIS old book, but because A) he wasn't sharing what he knew with others and therefore was cheating, and B) it distinctly reminded him of Lily and how she benefited from Snape's brains unjustly! Therefore, since Snape has never made any reference to Lily, only James, perhaps the scene when Snape calls Harry a liar and a cheat in the bathroom was an indirect reference finally to Lily!!!

Yeah I think Hermione is a bit reminiscent of Lily but Snape seems to think that hermione is a showoff. I don't think he thought that about Lily. If I'm right and Lily did help Snape with potions then we know that she didn't tell anyone she was helping, we would have heard this infomation from Sirius or Lupin.

If i'm right then this would mean that Lily was a good teacher ( something Harry says when he's getting help form the notes) and Snape learnt so much form her that he was actually able to teach the subject.

And from the looks of it Snape was also in the slugclub.

Hm, I don't know... While it's possible that he was, I'm not so sure Slughorn would have wanted someone like him in his club. After all, Malfoy and his father weren't and for good reason, too -- Slughorn wants nothing to do with the Dark Arts and those who use them. Back then, word was that Snape was big into the Dark Arts so it's entirely possible that while Snape was a brilliant student, he just wasn't welcome.

Snape is already a year older than the rest of the people in his year according to wikipedia.

The Lexicon lists his birthday as January 9th of 1958 or 1959. James, Sirius, and Peter are all listed the same way -- 1958 or 1959. The only person whose birthday isn't listed as being in 1958 or 1950 is Remus's. According to the Lexicon, he was born on March 10th anywhere between 1958 and 1960.

he never said the potions work was his.

He only mentioned the spells because that's all that was relevant to that particular scene. He left out the potions information because Harry was attacking him with a spell he'd created and that was what set him off, not Harry's taking credit for Snape's potions skills, although I'm sure that irritated him, too. :lol:

That's because the ptoions work was never his.

It's possible but I don't think so.

Nobody else was looking. Harry bent low to retrieve the book, and as he did so, he saw something scribbled along the bottom of the back cover in the same small, cramped handwriting as the instructions that had won him his bottle of Felix Felicis, now safely hidden inside a pair of socks in his truck upstairs.

This Book is the Property of the Half-Blood Prince.

I had an interesting thought, in HBP page 308, Madam Pince finds Harry and Hermiome in the library talking and she sees the potions book with the writing on it. She says" - what have you done to that book, you depraved boy."
"It isn't the library's, it's mine!" said Harry hastily, snatching his copy of Advanced Potion-Making off the table as she lunged at it with a claw like hand.
"Despoiled!" she hissed. "Desecrated! Befouled!"

What if she really is Eileen Prince and she recognized her old text book and was yelling at Harry because he dared to touch her (and Snapes) old textbook.
I doin't know if you've been reading the Eileen Prince thread but I brought up this quote there this past weekend. :p I guess it's appropriate here so I will copy my own thoughts on the Pince incident here.

Back in PS/SS Snape takes the book Quidditich Through the Ages from him and when Harry goes to retreive it, he calls it "My book" even thought it was lent to him by Hermione's –who probably borrowed it from library. So it was the library's book. This foreshadows his attachment with the Prince's Potions Book.

The Advanced Potions book was lent to Harry - by Slughorn - "Property of the Half Blood Prince." Ms. Pince is the vulturelike guardian of the library who treats her books like her family. So it's interesting that she tries to take it from Harry as Snape did that Quiddtich book in PS/SS.

Just before the incident MMe Pince is seen "prowling the shelves" right behind the Harry and Hermione. Hermione mentioned The Half Blood Prince- by name- disparagingly twice. She also discredits Filch all withine earshot of MMe Pince. Most likely Pince over heard all of it, before interrupting in to close th library.

Hermione stopped dead; Harry had heard it too. Somebody had moved close behind them among the dark bookshelves. They waited and a moment later the vulturelike countenance of madam Pince appear around the corner, her sunken cheeks, her skin like parchment, and her long hooked nose illuminates unflatteringly by the lamp she was carrying.
“The library is now closed,” she said. “Mind you to return anything have borrowed to the correct– What have you been doing to that book you depraved boy!”
“It isn’t the library’s, it’s mine!” said Harry hastily, snatching his copy of Advanced Potin-making off the table as she lunged at it with a claw like hand.
“Despoiled!” she hissed. “Desecrated! Befouled!”
“It’s just a book that’s been written on!” Said Harry, tugging out of her grip.

Later Harry deflect his actions again, by assuming Pince heard them talking about Filch.

“It’s not my fault she’s barking mad” said Harry “or d’you think she overheard you being rude about Flich? I’ve always thought there might be something going on between them…”

Before she sees the book, Pince reminds Harry, “Mind you to return anything have borrowed to the correct–“ Note that she doesn’t tell him to return any “books” but “anything” he has “borrowed.”

Harry himself recognizes that Pince’s overreaction seems to be about something much more– when he defends himself saying, “It’s just a book that’s been written in!”

I do think it's Eilleen's Book. But jus by Snape taking his Mother’s name, “The Prince’s” Potions book becomes a symbol of knowledge and a kind of power passed down from Mother to Son (if not literally lent to him by his mother.) Therefore the book is also a kind of family heirloom, or *** Prince's family legacy that Harry is borrowing. Yet when Harry decides to hide the identity of the book by using taking off the old cover and “reparo-ing” on a new one. He dismiss any history behind the book, he switches the cover but keeps the content, and is effect claiming it as his own. He defends his reasons for keeping the book, and refuses to give it back, and Harry calls it “my book!” By using this book and The Prince’s alterations to better his position in Potions class, Harry is claiming Snape’s accomplishments, Snape’s glory and “befouling” The Prince’s name.

This tone and language of Pince’s revulsion in the library echoes a previous outrageous “barking” In OOP. At 12 Grimmauld Place when Harry hears a woman's voice screeching various archaic insults about the people defiling her house – The House of Black– from behind “a moth eaten velvet curtain." In what I consider to be a foreshadow to Madam Pince’s own screeching, the voice screams, “How dare you befoul the house of My fathers!” just before Sirius introduces her, “Hello Harry, I see you’ve met my Mother?”

Pince's echos of Mrs. Blacks words could be a clue to the ancestral link between her and Snape. If this is her son's book It means much much more. Harry wonders if Pince might have overheard their insults about Filch. I suspect, it was not just the insults about Filch, but also about “The Prince’s” name, the book, and – her son’s legacy.

It's possible but I don't think so.

The Half-Blood Prince, Half-Blood PrinceNobody else was looking. Harry bent low to retrieve the book, and as he did so, he saw something scribbled along the bottom of the back cover in the same small, cramped handwriting as the instructions that had won him his bottle of Felix Felicis, now safely hidden inside a pair of socks in his truck upstairs.


This Book is the Property of the Half-Blood Prince.

I'm saying that he copied the notes off Lily and that why Slughorn says it's like Lily's.

Hm, I don't know... While it's possible that he was, I'm not so sure Slughorn would have wanted someone like him in his club. After all, Malfoy and his father weren't and for good reason, too -- Slughorn wants nothing to do with the Dark Arts and those who use them. Back then, word was that Snape was big into the Dark Arts so it's entirely possible that while Snape was a brilliant student, he just wasn't welcome.

Slughorn doesn't know Snape is a DE. The status of DE are secret. If does know that would mean that he know that he's a spy for the order.

Besides I doubt that Snape was a death Eater when he was in school.

It's only now Slughorn is afriad of Dark Arts. Are you forgetting that he was the one who told Voldemort about horcruxes.

The Lexicon lists his birthday as January 9th of 1958 or 1959. James, Sirius, and Peter are all listed the same way -- 1958 or 1959. The only person whose birthday isn't listed as being in 1958 or 1950 is Remus's. According to the Lexicon, he was born on March 10th anywhere between 1958 and 1960.


And the information about Snape's birth Date from wikipedia must have been updated because the last time I checked there was along article about how they arrived at his birth date. Now it says that they were all born in 1958, even Remus. I know it wasn't like this before. I'm certain they had Severus a year older than the rest of them.

Ahh I knew it: it said the page was modified. on the 21st of April.

My ego has survived.

Why are non-potion-related spells in a Potions book anyway? Unless Snape was so adept at Potions that he finished his work with enough time left to doodle in the book's margins.

I'm saying that he copied the notes off Lily and that why Slughorn says it's like Lily's.

It's not possible that Lily copied off of Snape? ;)

Slughorn doesn't know Snape is a DE.

He wouldn't have had to.

[See below reponse]

Besides I doubt that Snape was a death Eater when he was in school.

Neither was Lucius Malfoy.

On the other hand, it's possible that Lucius, himself, was a member of the Slug Club. Malfoy seemed to think so. Then again, Lucius is a very different person. He exudes confidence (meh...arrogance...) and power whereas Snape was an outcast. I'm still not sure Slughorn would have wanted Snape. Again, it's possible, we just don't have enough proof to be sure.

Are you forgetting that he was the one who told Voldemort about horcruxes.

No, I am not. Nor am I forgetting how uncomfortable he was with it even then.

"How do you split your soul?"

"Well," said Slughorn uncomfortably... [cut]

"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn, shaking his head like an old elephant bothered my mosquitoes. "Do I look as though I've tried it - do I look like a killer?" [cut]

"Merlin's beard, Tom!" yelped Slughorn. [cut]

Slughorn looked deeply troubled now: He was gazing at Riddle as though he had never seen him plainly before, and Harry could tell that he was regretting entering into the conversation at all.

His knowing about Horcruxes hardly suggests his comfortability with the Dark Arts. A lot of people know a lot of things they aren't comfortable with.

And the information about Snape's birth Date from wikipedia must have been updated because the last time I checked there was along article about how they arrived at his birth date. Now it says that they were all born in 1958, even Remus. I know it wasn't like this before. I'm certain they had Severus a year older than the rest of them.

Ahh I knew it: it said the page was modified. on the 21st of April.

My ego has survived.

I never doubted that Wiki listed such information, I just doubted Wiki. :lol:

Why are non-potion-related spells in a Potions book anyway? Unless Snape was so adept at Potions that he finished his work with enough time left to doodle in the book's margins.

Good question. :lol:

I still feel confident in saying that Snape was very adept at Potion making and that he, as a result, may have carried his Potions book around with him. Also, we know he got his Potions book from his mother (we don't know if he got any other books from her) so he may have felt particularly attached to it.

Quoted from Bscorp :I doin't know if you've been reading the Eileen Prince thread but I brought up this quote there this past weekend. I guess it's appropriate here so I will copy my own thoughts on the Pince incident here.

Back in PS/SS Snape takes the book Quidditich Through the Ages from him and when Harry goes to retreive it, he calls it "My book" even thought it was lent to him by Hermione's –who probably borrowed it from library. So it was the library's book. This foreshadows his attachment with the Prince's Potions Book.

The Advanced Potions book was lent to Harry - by Slughorn - "Property of the Half Blood Prince." Ms. Pince is the vulturelike guardian of the library who treats her books like her family. So it's interesting that she tries to take it from Harry as Snape did that Quiddtich book in PS/SS.

Just before the incident MMe Pince is seen "prowling the shelves" right behind the Harry and Hermione. Hermione mentioned The Half Blood Prince- by name- disparagingly twice. She also discredits Filch all withine earshot of MMe Pince. Most likely Pince over heard all of it, before interrupting in to close th library.
Hermione stopped dead; Harry had heard it too. Somebody had moved close behind them among the dark bookshelves. They waited and a moment later the vulturelike countenance of madam Pince appear around the corner, her sunken cheeks, her skin like parchment, and her long hooked nose illuminates unflatteringly by the lamp she was carrying.
“The library is now closed,” she said. “Mind you to return anything have borrowed to the correct– What have you been doing to that book you depraved boy!”
“It isn’t the library’s, it’s mine!” said Harry hastily, snatching his copy of Advanced Potin-making off the table as she lunged at it with a claw like hand.
“Despoiled!” she hissed. “Desecrated! Befouled!”
“It’s just a book that’s been written on!” Said Harry, tugging out of her grip.
Later Harry deflect his actions again, by assuming Pince heard them talking about Filch.
“It’s not my fault she’s barking mad” said Harry “or d’you think she overheard you being rude about Flich? I’ve always thought there might be something going on between them…”
Before she sees the book, Pince reminds Harry, “Mind you to return anything have borrowed to the correct–“ Note that she doesn’t tell him to return any “books” but “anything” he has “borrowed.”


I also think that she knows more about that book than she let on. She was very upset to see it, and I'm not sure that it was because it was written in.

agreed...it's his mom's. i thought hermione proved that in the end

It was about Draught of Living Death.

'Well, then, it's natural ability!' shouted Slughorn. 'You should have seen what he gave me, first lesson, the Draught of Living Death - never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus -'

And there I guess it means that Snape wrote these hits about adding a clockwise stir and so on later...if he couldn't produce it on a first attempt...

Bscorp you're very observant I have to say ;) Your posts are very interesting.

I thought that that book came to Snape from his mother. But then I thought if it was his mothers' property, then when he owned it, why was it left in Hogwarts? :hmm: then if it was not his mothers, but some second-hand book, who was its previous owner?
I also originally thought that it must have been Snape's mother's, and that her handwriting had resembled Snape's, and that she made the notes. However, I've been re-reading HBP, and noticed that we have a date for the publicaton of the HBP Potions Book. The dates don't seem to add up which leads me to think that it was a second-hand book but there were no notes in it before Snape owned it -- and you're correct, Slughorn did say that Severus's first attempt at the Living Death potion wasn't as good as Harry's. I'm beginning to agree that Snape made the notes on potions from Lily's work, that she did help him (or at least he watched what she was doing and then wrote the notes down). It makes sense that Lily was involved, and we now have a plausible connection with Lily and Snape. It's possible that the "mudblood" comment Snape made was out of anger because he thought Lily did like James deep down, and it's interesting to note that Lily wasn't all that upset by Snape's comment. After all, Lily knew he hung around with the Malfoys and they are snooty about being pureblood.
Ron fell asleep almost immediately, but Harry delved into his trunk and pulled out his copy of Advanced Potion-Making before getting into bed. There he turned its pages, searching, until he finally found, at the front of the book, the date that it had been published. It was nearly fifty years old. Neither his father, or his father's friends, had been at Hogwarts fifty years ago.

So we know that Snape isn't the HBP... but that he had had the book. He had to have written the stuff in the book though, because he said in HBP that he invented "levicorpus". So, maybe the book was his mother's, she gave it to him, and he wrote in it.

On a different note, do you think Harry ever went to retrieve it from the Room of Requirement?

So we know that Snape isn't the HBP... but that he had had the book.And how do we know that Snape is not the HBP?

It's quite possible that back in Snape's time, this book WAS used earlier, and the curriculum has since changed to be easier to understand. Snape was also considered quite good by Slughorn, so it's possible that he was advanced into the next year's class.

It makes sense that the notes were scribbled into this book since Snape was likely carrying it around for quite some time. Anyone who took that much notice of the differences in how to brew potions, obviously put some time and care into learning how to do them the most efficiently. This would appeal to Snape at the time because of his desire to retaliate against the Marauders and others who made fun of him, but he was too afraid (dare I say, cowardly?:)) to come out and fight them in person.

So we know that Snape isn't the HBP... but that he had had the book. He had to have written the stuff in the book though, because he said in HBP that he invented "levicorpus". So, maybe the book was his mother's, she gave it to him, and he wrote in it.

On a different note, do you think Harry ever went to retrieve it from the Room of Requirement?
Snape is still the HBP. His mother was pureblood but married a muggle, making Snape the HBP. And, he also says he is at the end of HBP (page 604, U.S.).

Perhaps he just wanted to associate with his mother's side, as his father seemed to be verbally abusive -- remember the memory that Harry sees when he uses the Protego spell during occlumency -- he sees "a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman while a small, dark haired boy cried in a corner...." (OoP, page 592, U.S.)

It's just questionable who wrote the notes in the Potions Book and where did the writer get the info. The dates don't work out for it to be Snape's mother's book (it seems to be published after she was out of school, but years before Snape would use it as well). So it may have been second-hand or new when Snape got it, but it seems he wrote the notes in it. But given Slughorn's comment about Snape's first attempt at the Draught of Living Death, it looks like the notes may have gone in later. Either Snape experimented obsessively in practicing potions on his own, or he had help -- from someone who was naturally talented -- according to Slughorn, that could easily have been Lily. If Snape learned from Lily, either by her help or by his watching her technique at the same table, we have a Snape/Lily connection that ties into Snape's remorse after Godric's Hollow.

And yes, I think Harry will go back for the book (or if he doesn't return to Hogwarts -- though I think he will -- Ginny would get it for him).

Snape certainly claims loudly to Harry in HBP that he is the Half Blood Prince. He does this after Harry attempts several spells on Snape that Snape recognizes as his own from his old book. I don't think it would be like Snape to trouble to lie about something like this, it would be so out of character.

What makes you think the books wasn't originally Eileen"s. The only thing we have to go on for her age and years at Hogwarts would be the book - so how can it be published too late when it's the only clue?

I tend to think the book was originally hers. It isn't yet canon, since it IS possible that he bought it second-hand. But IF he did, then why buy it before he needed it? He had it in 5th year (since he worked on Levicorpus in it). That's a full year ahead of NEWT potions classes. I just can't see an apparently poor (monetarily) student purchasing a second-hand book a year early - unless possibly it was just a great price?

More likely it really did once belong to Eileen. And from that pub date we get the info that she took NEWT potions a few years after Voldy had finished Hogwarts. We are unsure of her exact year, but she would apparently be near Hagrid's age (as well as Orion Black's since he was at Hogwarts about then). At the oldest, she was in their year. But since the quote says 'nearly' 50 years ago, she is/was probably a few years younger.

I'm fairly sure that Snape's potions book was his mother's old one..or that he bought it used, his family (from what we briefly and heard of them) didn't seem to well-off. I really don't think it could have been Voldemort's; it seemed that his thing at school was Dark Arts, not potions.

Snape is still the HBP. His mother was pureblood but married a muggle, making Snape the HBP. And, he also says he is at the end of HBP (page 604, U.S.).

Perhaps he just wanted to associate with his mother's side, as his father seemed to be verbally abusive -- remember the memory that Harry sees when he uses the Protego spell during occlumency -- he sees "a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman while a small, dark haired boy cried in a corner...." (OoP, page 592, U.S.)

It's just questionable who wrote the notes in the Potions Book and where did the writer get the info. The dates don't work out for it to be Snape's mother's book (it seems to be published after she was out of school, but years before Snape would use it as well). So it may have been second-hand or new when Snape got it, but it seems he wrote the notes in it.
I always got the feeling that Snape's parents didn't have much money - JKR drew some very strong parallels to Snape and Tom Riddle coming to school, and this is one they seemed to share. Tom needed secondhand things, and I have a feeling Snape did as well. This completes the picture of the disgruntled teen, who seems to be ashamed of his upbringing.

I wondered about that. It seems like the hardest part of inventing spells is knowing Latin so it seems kind of strange that creating spells is viewed as something that's incredibly difficult. What makes a spell? Is it really as simple and cutting and pasting spells/words together? All you'd have to do is look up the meaning of particular Latin terms and start yelling out incantations... :huh:


Well, yes, but I think there might be 'rules' to this that JKR has yet to fully define. And, not only that, but I can see this as being highly dangerous, not too mention time consuming. Not something the average wizard wants to be doing.

I always got the feeling that Snape's parents didn't have much money - JKR drew some very strong parallels to Snape and Tom Riddle coming to school, and this is one they seemed to share. Tom needed secondhand things, and I have a feeling Snape did as well. This completes the picture of the disgruntled teen, who seems to be ashamed of his upbringing.
I agree. The 2nd scene that Harry accidentally saw during occlumency was "A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies..." (page 592, OoP, U.S.). He seems to have had a stressful childhood, a dreary home to be sure -- I mean, look where it is, maybe that's why he's always closing the drapes in classrooms.

While it's possible that it was his mother's book, I'm not sure why she would keep it. As she's a pureblood and married a muggle, however, it's possible her family would have disowned her. But I agree either way, Snape likely had used books while at Hogwarts. But I now firmly believe that Snape wrote all the notes, and that Lily was involved in what Snape learned about potions.

[QUOTE]
I've said this before but everyone ignores me but I still believe that Lily did the improvements to the potions and she shared them with Snape. She could have been patners with him and just whisper instrustions to him. Similar to how Hermione helps Neville.

I don't believe Lily was the expert. I believe it was Snape and I'll show why further down.

As for Lily whispering instructions to Snape, all she needed was to use the Muffliato spell that Snape invented. Would work great as he gave Lily help. And what a coincidence that Snape invented such a spell.

Fills the ears of target persons near the caster with an unidentifiable buzzing, so that the caster can hold lengthy conversations without being overheard.


toonmili:
When Harry goes Godric's Hollow I believe he would find that Lily's Potions book, if it survived will have the same inprovements to the potions and he will then put it togehter from there.

Maybe Lily's Potions book is at Hogwarts. Ron has her book. :cool:

"He only followed different instructions to ours," said Ron. "Could've been a catastrophe, couldn't it? But he took a risk and it paid off." He heaved a sigh. "Slughorn could've handed me that book, but no, I get the one no one's ever written on. Puked on, by the look of page fifty-two, but --"
HBP, Ch 9

This reminds me of Riddle's diary, which is again mentioned in HBP.

"It's nothing," he said reassuringly, lowering his voice. "It's not like, you know, Riddle's diary. It's just an old textbook someone's scribbled on."
HBP, Ch 9

So maybe it is like Riddle's diary, written in invisible ink.

"That's a brilliant theory, Hermione," said Ron, "with just one tiny little flaw. There's nothing written in his diary."

But Hermione was pulling her wand out of her bag.

"It might be invisible ink!" she whispered.
CoS,Ch 13


toonmili
If i'm right then this would mean that Lily was a good teacher ( something Harry says when he's getting help form the notes) and Snape learnt so much form her that he was actually able to teach the subject.

Yes, Harry did get help but it was from the HBP. And that's where Lily also got her help. Let's look at it a bit more.

...I really don't know where you get these brain waves, my boy...unless --"

Harry pushed the Half-Blood Prince's book deeper into his bag with his foot.

"--it's just your mother's genes coming out in you!"

"Oh...yeah, maybe," said Harry, relieved.
HBP, Ch 22, p.475

I think you and I read this differently. The hint here is not that Harry is getting his talent from his mother but from the Half-Blood Prince. At least that's how I read it. :rockon:

As for Lily whispering instructions to Snape, all she needed was to use the Muffliato spell that Snape invented. Would work great as he gave Lily help. And what a coincidence that Snape invented such a spell.
Except this is apparently disproved by Slughorn's remarks at his Christmas party. He implies Severus was not as good as Harry seems to be -- twice (bolding is mine on the following quote)
"But I don't think I've ever known such a natural at potions!" said Slughorn, regarding Harry with a fond, if bloodshot eye. "Instinctive you know -- like his mother! I've only ever taught a few with this ability, I can tell you that, Sybill -- why even Severus --" And to Harry's horror, Slughorn threw out an arm and seem to scoop Snape out of thin air toward them.

"Stop skulking and come and join us, Severus!" hiccupped Slughorn happily. "I was just talking about Harry's exceptional potion making! Some credit must go to you, of course, you taught him for five years!"

Trapped, with Slughorn's arm around his shoulders, Snape looked down his hook nose at Harry, his black eyes narrowed.
"Funny, I never had the impression that I managed to teach Potter anything at all."

"Well, then, it's natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should have seen what he gave me, first lesson, Draught of Living Death -- never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus --"

I've said this before but everyone ignores me but I still believe that Lily did the improvements to the potions and she shared them with Snape. She could have been patners with him and just whisper instrustions to him. Similar to how Hermione helps Neville.
I'm not ignoring you -- in fact I agree, and it makes perfect sense that this is what happened. It gives us a Lily/Snape connection that is more plausible than any others that I've heard so far.

I'm not ignoring you -- in fact I agree, and it makes perfect sense that this is what happened. It gives us a Lily/Snape connection that is more plausible than any others that I've heard so far.

But we have Severus, who can tell a student exactly what they did wrong with their potion just be looking at it. I'm pretty sure that if he can do that, then he can come up with improvements as well.

But we have Severus, who can tell a student exactly what they did wrong with their potion just be looking at it. I'm pretty sure that if he can do that, then he can come up with improvements as well.
But the real question is, where did Snape learn it? Slughorn seemed to imply (see quote in my post just before yours) that Severus was not as good as Harry seemed to be, and he suggested Harry inherited the ability from Lily.....so where did Snape learn to be very good at potions? Lily. It makes sense, and gives the Lily/Snape connection that's going to be necessary to explain Snape's remorse after Godric's Hollow.

Except this is apparently disproved by Slughorn's remarks at his Christmas party. He implies Severus was not as good as Harry seems to be -- twice (bolding is mine on the following quote)

But Harry is not as good as Snape apparently was. Harry is good at the moment due to the notes written by Snape in the potions book. Unlike when the HBP was at school, Harry is not experimenting and coming up with new and better ways of potion making. It would not be surprising for Harry to appear to be better. He's only following directions, though. The HBP was far above the stage of following directions at the same age...he was inventing.



HedwigOwl
I'm not ignoring you -- in fact I agree, and it makes perfect sense that this is what happened. It gives us a Lily/Snape connection that is more plausible than any others that I've heard so far.

There is still a Lily/Snape friendship connection even if Snape is the real potions expert. They could have still worked together. I'm not sure what the purpose would be for Lily to be the expert. She has her looks, her ability at Charms, she married James Potter, she sacrificed herself for her son...must she now be a potions expert? Better than Snape? Seems a bit too perfect.

I think we've been asked not to discuss Lily/Snape, so I'll avoid that one.

I think the potions book was a useful device for several reasons. One, it allowed Slughorn to mistakenly attribute Harry's talent to Lily, giving Harry the necessary opening to get the memory. Two, the irony of the true source of his 'brilliance' was used as a clue to the identity of it's real owner, the HBP. Lastly, Hermione investigations were used to introduce Snape's mother, Eileen Prince.

Himoema is quite right.

I must ask you to drop the Lily/Snape discussion. Lily/Snape are taboo for the time being because the debate has caused too much bad blood in the past.

While Slughorn DID say at the Christmas party that Harry's FIRST brewing of the Draught of Living Death was exceptional, he only compared it to Snape's FIRST brewing. He is commenting on how exceptional it was because it was better than EVEN Snape's.

To me, the implication is not only that Snape's later brewings of the draught were better than his first brewing (makes sense, since he was developing improvements), but also that he's comparing Harry's to Snape's because Snape was his best student. Twice he says 'even yours' to Snape. Obviously, Lily was very good. But if she was the BEST then Sluggy would have been comparing Harry's potion to hers (better - the same - not as good).

No, Sluggy is trying to tell Snape exactly how amazing Harry's potion was - he would then compare it to the best student he had. Apparently, that was Snape.

While Slughorn DID say at the Christmas party that Harry's FIRST brewing of the Draught of Living Death was exceptional, he only compared it to Snape's FIRST brewing. He is commenting on how exceptional it was because it was better than EVEN Snape's.

To me, the implication is not only that Snape's later brewings of the draught were better than his first brewing (makes sense, since he was developing improvements), but also that he's comparing Harry's to Snape's because Snape was his best student. Twice he says 'even yours' to Snape. Obviously, Lily was very good. But if she was the BEST then Sluggy would have been comparing Harry's potion to hers (better - the same - not as good).

No, Sluggy is trying to tell Snape exactly how amazing Harry's potion was - he would then compare it to the best student he had. Apparently, that was Snape.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Slughorn mentions Lily's potions talent enough to indicate that she was at least as good as Snape at potions, possibly better. Please understand that I'm not saying that Snape wasn't talented in potions, he obviously was -- the mint addition to the potion Yartha_Y referred to ("don't know where you get these brainwaves") was obviously not something that Lily did or Slughorn probably would have mentioned it. But consider that if Lily was naturally talented (instinctive, Slughorn called it), and Snape was talented by study/practice, it would have been something he would find learning about her technique interesting and useful for his own skill as well. The fact that Snape wrote notes all over his textbook indicates (to me anyway) that his potions expertise was not instinctive or natural, but a result of study.

"Excellent, excellent, Harry! Good lord, it's clear you've inherited your mother's talent. She was a dab at potions, Lily was!"

"Instinctive, you know -- like his mother!"

Himoema is quite right.

I must ask you to drop the Lily/Snape discussion. Lily/Snape are taboo for the time being because the debate has caused too much bad blood in the past.

I am a bit confused. I understand shipping debates cause problems but I personally am not discussing Snape and Lily in a shipping manner.

We have a book used by Snape, with spells he invented written in the margins. It's a potions book. Slughorn keeps telling Harry how wonderful he is in potions, just like Lily. Harry gets help from the HBP. It is not a far stretch to believe Lily benefited from the same book. Canon quotes have been given to support that view.

JKR waited until the sixth book to tell us Lily was so great at potions and she waited until the sixth book to tell us Snape invented spells. JKR waited until book six to tell us Snape was remorseful over the death of the Potters. It is hard to ignore a connection between the two but again, this doesn't have to cover any sort of shipping. Is it not possible we are shown two people good at potions for some reason other than shipping and even a friendship?

I too wonder if the book belonged to Eileen but there's a lot more to this book than just guessing who the first owner was. It revolves around what is written in the book...the increasingly nasty spells...the potion improvements...what would be a typical "shove a bezoar" Snape response...levicorpus...spells for enemies...

I could go in many directions with this book. It shows Snape's increasing frustations with enemies, who are the Marauders...the darkening of Snape's soul by the spells he is inventing (Sectumsempra)...Snape's ability to think outside the box, to not just get his answers from a book which may help in this fight against Voldemort...and this is a book that may still be of some use to Harry.

We have two examples which one could read as two different personalities working in potions together.

And there it was, scrawled right across a long list of antidotes:

Just shove a bezoar down their throats.
Definitely sounds like Snape.

And what's that I smell? Mmmm...you've added just a sprig of peppermint, haven't you?
More like Lily?

Of course I can take those two examples and come up with something else. The point is there does seem to have been some type of connection between Snape and Lily and I believe the potions book points that out.

Then there's the idea, which I support, of Snape being the awful boy who was visiting Lily. It is hard to get around not mentioning the two, especially where the potions book is concerned, IMO.

I take all of Slughorn's flattery of Harry and his Mother with a grain of salt.

This scene takes place during a party where everyone is making connections and showing off thier famous friends. There is a actual Vampire there being treated like a pet which to me is a great metaphor for a room of famous people dropping names and feeding off of each other's reputations. Slughorn's flattery strikes me as someone who is playing up to the "chosen one."

I think both Lily and Snape were talented. To me, who was indeed "better" is not really decipherable and not even the point, as Slughorn is the kind of guy who would play up to Harry's sympathy's by implying he and his Mother were both better than or just as good as Snape.

But that's just my take on it. :) I have to wonder if Harry wasn't WHO he was- would Slughorn have mentioned his Mother or her accomplishments at all?
I don't doubt that Snape and Lily might have had classes together influenced eachother, but I am behind the idea that if there was any woman's writing in the book - it most likely came from Snape's Mother.
Perhaps she added some notes for him or had some in there before he took it. Who knows.

I think we've been asked not to discuss Lily/Snape, so I'll avoid that one.

I think the potions book was a useful device for several reasons. One, it allowed Slughorn to mistakenly attribute Harry's talent to Lily, giving Harry the necessary opening to get the memory. Two, the irony of the true source of his 'brilliance' was used as a clue to the identity of it's real owner, the HBP. Lastly, Hermione investigations were used to introduce Snape's mother, Eileen Prince.

Wow, I just agreed with you on something. Let me bookmark this. :p :tu:

The potions book is almost like Tom Riddles diary it could be a possible horcrux. Sectumsempra is a spell Harry may be able to crack open some horcruxs as well. Wonder what would have happened if Harry had written on the book? If the book was Eileen Princes, it is possible she obtained the book from Tom Riddle, as she would have attended Hogwarts around the same time. I see the book as evil, possibly turning HBP/Snape to the dark side the way the diary in COS took hold of Ginny.

The book was Snape's (and possible his Mother's before that.) He is the Half Blood Prince. Rowling has put down any speculation that it belonged to Voldemort/Riddle pretty explicitly.

I think the Potions book was meant to serve as a direct contrast to Riddle's diary. The driving power behind it is the opposite as well.

Snape is a man who took on his Mother's name while keeping his muggle Dad's name as well. Keeping his family history intact. Riddle is the opposite.

The Riddle diary appeared brand new, flawless and empty of content (or soul.) Much like Riddle himself who was "clean cut" and charming.

Riddle/Voldemort seduced people to control them as the Diary seduced Ginny and Possessed her to achieve his goals.

Snape's Book- was beat up ragged and full of revisions. As Snape himself is no charmer and appears intimidating. However, book has content that is a series of text, revisions and his own mother's name. Spells that he created and later learned how to counteract. Snape is a man who has gone through many revisions as well.

Harry was not controlled by the book. He made is own decision to learn from it and it helped him a lot (for the most part.)

But there may be more to Snape's book than just a name. Maybe somewhere in there is a clue as to how to destroy a Horcrux.

The fact that Snape wrote notes all over his textbook indicates (to me anyway) that his potions expertise was not instinctive or natural, but a result of study.


I think that's right on. As we know, Snape didn't write down any explanation of Golpalott's Third Law, because he understood it. I would think that if he understood the changes to the potions right away, he would not need to write those down the way he did.

By the same reasoning, I think the spells are all his own inventions. Harry says the spells were written, crossed out, then revised repeatedly. That shows Snape's process of invention, which we do not see among the potions. All we see for the potions are instructions that have not been revised, which says to me that Snape did not go through a trial-and-error process for the potions the way he did for the spells.

Not just the spells were written and crossed out and improved. So were the potions instruction - so densely were the pages covered with notes that the margins were practically black and it was difficult to read. That doesn't sound like someone making a note of something he watched someone else do in the class while they were both working on the same potion. That sounds much more like repeated brewing using new ideas and then crossing them out as he found something even better. That is indicative of experimentation - not copying someone else's one witnessed improvement.

The use of mint by Harry SEEMS instinctual, but it isn't - he was just following something written in the book. That does not necessarily mean that whomever wrote it in the book (Snape) thought to use mint instinctually. He might have tried 14 different herbs before ending up with mint - we just aren't told one way or the other. But considering the fact that the books he assigned for first year potions classes included an herbal, I think it's safe to say that he was aware of the different properties of different herbs (like mint) even while back at school and made an educated guess that it would be effective.

As to who wrote in the book - there is only ONE handwriting in it. And Snape did not make use of the corrected recipe for the Draught of Living Death when he brewed HIS first version of it. IF he had, his would have been every bit as good as Harry's. That means that either the corrected version did not yet exist (because Snape had not yet done his epxerimenting on it) or he chose not to use a corrected version that he would KNOW came from his own mother (IF it was her book originally).

Now, IF his mother HAD been a potions genius wouldn't Snape have known to trust his mother's recipes and used it when he brewed HIS first Draught of Living Death?

Note also that we do not have any canon so far that indicates Eileen was some kind of potions genius - Slughorn doesn't mention her as such - and when Hermione went in search of a female potions prodigy from that time period she only came up with Eileen because of her last name - no hints that she was especially good at potions except that she was apparently the previous owner of a NEWTs level potions book - in other words, all we have tosuggest Eileen was good at potions is that she took Slughorn's NEWT-level class - and all that takes was getting an exceeds expectations on her potions OWL.

And lastly - Voldy could not have had anything to do with what was in the book. Not only did JKR say that he wasn't the HBP - he was also out of Hogwarts before the book's date of publication. So, unless he specifically took Eileen's potions book and wrote all over it for her just to give her better recipes so she could get better grades then I don't see any reason to believe Voldy wrote anything in the book. Remember that he was a minimum of 4 years older than Eileen and we don't even know that she was in Slytherin.

Altho' I will say in defense of this idea that Tom did know Hagrid while at school even tho' they were two years apart. And apparently (according to Sirius) Bella and Lucius were somehow either friends of Snape's at school or his protectors (even tho' they are both several years older than Snape). However that is also unclear since we cannot be sure that the 'gang' was while AT Hogwarts (except that Sirius said he never saw Bella again until Azkaban, after he was roughly a 5th year)

All we see for the potions are instructions that have not been revised, which says to me that Snape did not go through a trial-and-error process for the potions the way he did for the spells.

To his annoyance he saw that the previous owner had scribbled all over the pages, so that the margins were as black as the printed portions. Bending low to decipher the ingredients (even here, the previous owner had made annotations and crossed things out) Harry hurried off toward the store cupboard to find what he needed.
HBP, Ch 9, p.189,US

Having finished chopping his roots, Harry bent low over his book again. It was really very irritating, having to try and decipher the directions under all the stupid scribbles of the previous owner, who for some reason had taken issue with the order to cut up the sopohorous bean and had written in the alternative instruction:

Crush with flat side of silver dagger, releases juice better than cutting.
HBP, Ch 9, p.189, US

Hastily scooping it all into the cauldron he saw, to his surprise, that the potion immediately turned exactly the shade of lilac described by the textbook.

His annoyance with the previous owner vanishing on the spot, Harry now squinted at the next line of instructions. According to the book, he had to stir counterclockwise until the potions turned clear as water. According to the addition the previous owner had made, however, he ought to add a clockwise stir after every seventh counterclockwise stir. Could the old owner be right twice?
HBP, Ch 9, p.190, US

It's quite obvious from the above there was a trial and error process. There are other quotes but I won't list them.

I actually assumed that he crossed things out from the original instructions.

Really there are two options.

1-He bought it used. This makes sense since we have no facts about his past except for that one memory of him and his family. The memory shows that they probably are not exactly 'rolling in it'

2-It was his mothers. This also makes sense for the above reasons.

Yartha - thanks for the quote! Always good to go back and check canon. Sorry not to have put it in when I said the margins were practically black.

So - the corrections in the book are NOT from just seeing someone else (who shall remain nameless) in his class make an 'instinctual' correction. The potion recipes are every bit as marked up and crossed out - corrected and re-corrected as the spells. The book is a record of experimentation in progress.

i thought that the book was Snape's because he is have of a prince.

But we have Severus, who can tell a student exactly what they did wrong with their potion just be looking at it. I'm pretty sure that if he can do that, then he can come up with improvements as well.We also have the fact that the Wolvesbane potion that he brews for Lupin is a very recent invention, and very difficult to brew. But Snape is able to do so quite easily without any help from Lily. This would not appear to be the work of someone who needed much help understanding his potions homework as a student.

Hermione's little comment about the writing look like a girls is interesting when you think about it. Perhaps Snape wasn't the brilliant one who made those comments, but his mother.

Wouldn't the trio know Snape's handwriting? Surely they must have seen it, spending 6 years as his student.

Hermione's little comment about the writing look like a girls is interesting when you think about it. Perhaps Snape wasn't the brilliant one who made those comments, but his mother.

I'm afraid Hermione just wanted the writer to be a girl. We girls do have to stick together, you know!! :tu:

Wouldn't the trio know Snape's handwriting? Surely they must have seen it, spending 6 years as his student.

Our handwriting does change as we grow older so Snape's adult handwriting probably isn't the same as the handwriting in the book. Harry won't remember it, of course, but we readers know that Snape's handwriting is described in SWM as miniscule and cramped -- very much the same as the Half-Blood Prince's writing is described.

So I think it's safe to assume that the potions revisions and spell inventions belong to the Half-Blood Prince aka Severus Snape.