Hermione's Character Change: Did You Notice It?

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crookshanks1177
August 16th, 2005, 6:03 am
I noticed the change in Hermione. It took me a bit to get used to it. But I also felt Harry was quite different when I read Ootp. For one Ootp was quite a dark book atleast to me it seemed. Mind you it's been quite some time since I sat down and read Ootp. But I remember feeling Harry was more whiney and he was always angry at the world. I found myself quite irritated with his behavior believe it or not. Then thinking about it later I kind of realized Harry was just being a typical teenage boy. I remember my older step brothers going through a similar phase when we were kids. So I kind of took it as JKR's way of showing Harry growing up. Same with Hermione. At first reading she drove me nuts. I was astonished that she asked McClaggen to go to Slughorn's party. Then again thinking about it later I was kind of proud of Hermione. To me it was JKR's way of showing a scorned 16 year old girl. I was kind of glad to see her lash out and get Ron back for his obnoxious behavior. Now if Hermione had acted like Ron did and continued seeing McClaggen and 'snogging' at every oppertunity then I would be upset with her. She has more class than that. Either way I still like Hermione.

Now that I think about it (I'm tired), the main thing that bothered me about Hermione was her harping on Harry for giving Ron that Felix (luck, I can't spell the last name at the moment) potion, then later on using her wand to help Ron out during his practice. Even though Harry didn't really give Ron the potion, I didn't like the idea of her yelling at Harry about it when she was doing something wrong also. I didn't like her holding double standards. But at the same time I like seeing her rebellious side.

Hinoema
August 16th, 2005, 6:07 am
It's clearly your opinion, not clear as a fact. She told Harry exactly why she did what she did. The evidence in the books supports it.

This makes it canon. Maybe you don't agree, maybe you think she was hiding her true motives. That means you have an unsubstantiated theroy that is counter to canon. However, making a blanket statement like 'this is how it was' without any evidence is inaccurate.

My opinion is that she was irate at McLaggen for insulting her freinds right in front of her. She realized that he would make Harry's captaincy a nightmare, and prevented his last save, hpoing that someone else would do better. I think that somewhere in her mind, she may have thought something like "well, hopefully he won't make the team now, what a nightmare. Ron's next, I bet he can probably do better. I hope so, for Harry's sake." But this is my opinion as well, and not fact unless somethhing else is mentioned about this scene.

On topic, based on the canon reasons we were given, this si totally in character for Hermione.

crookshanks1177
August 16th, 2005, 6:13 am
Hinoema I'm sorry, I'm not sure who you are referring to. I may have jumped in the middle of the discussion. But to clarify what I was trying to say, I was not frustrated with Hermione for doing what she did to McClaggen. Like I said I liked to see her rebelling a bit. She has been known to bend the rules a bit through out the series. Either way what she did wasn't exactly right. It wasn't out of charecter, but it wasn't neccessarily the right way to handle such a situation. That wasn't my concern though. What I didn't like is her chewing Harry out for doing something wrong even though Harry's intentions were good trying to help Ron out, when at the same time she's doing something wrong with good intentions to help Ron. If you know what I mean. She's holding a double standard. That's just a pet peeve of mine. That makes me feel like she's telling Harry "Do as I say, not as I do". That drives me crazy lol.

Hinoema
August 16th, 2005, 6:52 am
Oh, no! I wasn't referring to your post at all. When I read it in fact, I kind of chuckled and thought "double standards, how Hermione!"

:rotfl:

Emerald63
August 16th, 2005, 7:22 am
Other people may have said a few things but no WAY am I going to read all 30 PAGES of replies so, here goes...:rotfl: Ohhh..... right there with you, Clara!

...I think that thing in the Ministry has changed her, I mean, who wouldn't be at least slightly affected by what happened? <snip>Yeah...... what about what happened in the Ministry? Not one word was said about that, even though only two weeks passed between when the Trio said good-bye at King's Cross and when they saw each other again. I know the DoM thing was at least a week or two (as much as a month?) before term let out, but still... Hermione had been in the hospital wing for quite some time after whatever it was Dolohov did to her, and Ron still had scars from other people's brains for crying out loud! :scared: I think it was Madam Pomfrey who said that thoughts can leave worse scars than physical injuries. After that comment I really thought Jo would address the lingering effects - physical and emotional - that the DoM battle had on all the kids, especially Ron and Hermione. But nope - nuthin'! Anyone else wish she'd done so? Anyone else find it odd she didn't? :huh: (Not that it's any big hint, 'cause I don't think it is. Just odd from a literary standpoint, imo.)



....the main thing that bothered me about Hermione was her harping on Harry for giving Ron that Felix (luck, I can't spell the last name at the moment) potion, then later on using her wand to help Ron out during his practice. Even though Harry didn't really give Ron the potion, I didn't like the idea of her yelling at Harry about it when she was doing something wrong also. I didn't like her holding double standards. But at the same time I like seeing her rebellious side.When one has been quite sure of one's righteous stance for some time, then begins to realize oneself is not so pure in motive as one had thought for so long.... well, let's just say it really bites! :rotfl: Been there, done that!!!

It's weird.... those of us who are intellectually oriented and feel we have a good grip on logic can't always see how it's tendrils can weave so tightly into very emotional situations. The two (logic and emotion) just don't naturally seem to go together for us. So when we are suddenly presented with a situation where they do, we are thrown, and in a big way.

I have sooo identified with Hermione for ages now. Being too book smart (and not people smart) for her own good has really caused her pain. Done that, too. So much so, that seeing her encounter and try (emphasize "try" :lol: ) to deal with that has been like watching old home movies for me. :)

This is just a descriptive way of saying why she was doing the "do as I say, not as I do" thing and why she was so.... confounded.... when it became obvious. :p

crookshanks1177
August 16th, 2005, 8:47 am
Yeah...... what about what happened in the Ministry? Not one word was said about that, even though only two weeks passed between when the Trio said good-bye at King's Cross and when they saw each other again. I know the DoM thing was at least a week or two (as much as a month?) before term let out, but still... Hermione had been in the hospital wing for quite some time after whatever it was Dolohov did to her, and Ron still had scars from other people's brains for crying out loud! :scared: I think it was Madam Pomfrey who said that thoughts can leave worse scars than physical injuries. After that comment I really thought Jo would address the lingering effects - physical and emotional - that the DoM battle had on all the kids, especially Ron and Hermione. But nope - nuthin'! Anyone else wish she'd done so? Anyone else find it odd she didn't? :huh: (Not that it's any big hint, 'cause I don't think it is. Just odd from a literary standpoint, imo.)

I don't have the book in front of me. But I could have sworn JKR briefly mentioned Ron and the brains in the MoM. I don't know if she will continue on with that plot in book 7 or not.



When one has been quite sure of one's righteous stance for some time, then begins to realize oneself is not so pure in motive as one had thought for so long.... well, let's just say it really bites! :rotfl: Been there, done that!!!

It's weird.... those of us who are intellectually oriented and feel we have a good grip on logic can't always see how it's tendrils can weave so tightly into very emotional situations. The two (logic and emotion) just don't naturally seem to go together for us. So when we are suddenly presented with a situation where they do, we are thrown, and in a big way.

I have sooo identified with Hermione for ages now. Being too book smart (and not people smart) for her own good has really caused her pain. Done that, too. So much so, that seeing her encounter and try (emphasize "try" :lol: ) to deal with that has been like watching old home movies for me. :)

This is just a descriptive way of saying why she was doing the "do as I say, not as I do" thing and why she was so.... confounded.... when it became obvious. :p

Don't you love how JKR wrote her charecters so that in one way or another you can find a way to identify with one of them, or identify with bits and pieces of each of their charecteristics?

IC_Thestrals
August 16th, 2005, 9:00 am
Everyones mood is different. Lupin I believe seems different, tonks of course,Hagrid, Dumbledore seems different, Snape is weirdly different, and the trio has changed alot. Just in the 2 weeks Harry spent in Private drive, it's like, someone clicked their fingers and the mood has completely changed. To me, in the beginning, it almost felt like a whole new writter!

This is because at the end of OotP everything about the plot changes because now the whole world knows Tom is back. Now he has no reason to pull punches. Everyone is different, even kids, the day after your country is raided.

crookshanks1177
August 16th, 2005, 9:07 am
This is because at the end of OotP everything about the plot changes because now the whole world knows Tom is back. Now he has no reason to pull punches. Everyone is different, even kids, the day after your country is raided.

:tu: All good points. At the end of book 5 they lose Sirius, they know for sure Voldemort is back, and they are now pretty much at war. Who can blame them for such changes. As for the trio, they're growing up. They're teenagers going through quite a hard time. No doubt their attitudes are going to change. I think we'll continue to see changes through out the final book. Losing Sirius was a reality check so to speak. Now they lost Dumbledore. That is quite a blow to the good side. I'm sure they feel quite vulnerable now. It will be interesting to see how everyone handles the new situation I think.

anu_hermione
August 16th, 2005, 9:11 am
hey i absolutely feel hermione has changed ..but cant put it for negative or positive. on one hand she has the emotional stuff to deal with and on other she is a bit ccareless.especially abt harry i mean in draco issue.She dint deal with problem in the whole of it using her cool logic.al the time she sounded harassed though in the end she has regained her balance.

meesha1971
August 16th, 2005, 11:58 am
I've just been reading this thread and it's all very interesting. Just going back to a slightly older point though, all this stuff about how Hermione couldn't have confunded McLaggen for Ron's benefit because Ron hadn't tried out yet is nonsense. Regardless of the fact that Hermione could not be sure of how well Ron would do, any fool would realise that by making McLaggen miss his last save, that would at least make Ron's task easier. He then had to make 5 saves to assure himself of a place rather than simply equalise with McLaggen. Simple, no?

For Ron? No. Ron's confidence is a fragile thing. It doesn't take much to swing him downward and then he just loses it all together. McLaggen and Ron were the only ones trying out for keeper. Harry put the keeper tryouts off until last hoping there wouldn't be a big crowd hanging around. He did that for Ron so he wouldn't be too self conscious. He had McLaggen go first, hoping he wouldn't be any good. He was worried when McLaggen only missed saving one goal. He wasn't sure how Ron would react. He was relieved that Ron didn't seem to be affected by McLaggen's good performance and performed even better by saving all five of his goals.

Hermione was in the same position. McLaggen saving 4 out of 5 goals is not bad. It's not bad at all. This could have affected Ron either way. His confidence could have been completely eroded by McLaggen doing that well and he could have gotten up there and missed everything. Thankfully, it wasn't and he managed to save all of his goals. Hermione had no way to know how her actions would effect Ron's tryout. If she had truly been doing it for Ron, she would have caused McLaggen to miss more than one goal. All that accomplished was deflating McLaggen's ego some and, unfortunately, not enough.

I've no doubt that McLaggen had been making remarks about Ron and Ginny, and perhaps Hermione even used that excuse in her mind when justifying confunding him. However I find it very unlikely that without the aid it would bring to Ron she would have done it at all. But she certainly wouldn't admit that to Harry afterwards, she'd come up with some other excuses as to why she had quite seriously cheated. It's clear there's only one real reason though.

You're right. It's very clear that Hermione was seriously hacked off at Mclaggen for insulting her friends. That is the only clear reason for her confunding him since she had no way of knowing how Ron would do on his tryout. ;)

Hermione did admit to Harry exactly what she did and told Harry exactly why she did it. Hermione doesn't know enough about Quidditch to cheat at it. Her actions were clearly meant to deflate McLaggen's ego.

Ruthyuki999
August 16th, 2005, 1:07 pm
i think the change is because hermione ha sjust realised she likes ron, and has been trying to sort out her feelings in the last books or something. As for the canaries thing girls can do really, really stuip things to make boys like them ( you wouldn't believe some of the things i did)

sparkly
August 16th, 2005, 3:28 pm
I've just been reading this thread and it's all very interesting. Just going back to a slightly older point though, all this stuff about how Hermione couldn't have confunded McLaggen for Ron's benefit because Ron hadn't tried out yet is nonsense. Regardless of the fact that Hermione could not be sure of how well Ron would do, any fool would realise that by making McLaggen miss his last save, that would at least make Ron's task easier. He then had to make 5 saves to assure himself of a place rather than simply equalise with McLaggen. Simple, no?

I've no doubt that McLaggen had been making remarks about Ron and Ginny, and perhaps Hermione even used that excuse in her mind when justifying confunding him. However I find it very unlikely that without the aid it would bring to Ron she would have done it at all. But she certainly wouldn't admit that to Harry afterwards, she'd come up with some other excuses as to why she had quite seriously cheated. It's clear there's only one real reason though.


If Hermione really wanted to make sure Ron got the job as keeper, wouldn't she have caused McLaggen to miss more than one goal? Why take a chance? If it was me, and I wanted to make sure my friend got on the team, I would have had McLaggen miss at least two. Because McLaggen only missed one goal, Ron had to be perfect - make 5 out of 5 saves. Ron's history at quidditch indicates that 5 saves out of 5 is very unlikely.

There is nothing in the text to indicate that Hermione confunded McLaggen for any reason other than to make him look foolish and pay him back for what he said about her friends.

shh227
August 16th, 2005, 4:29 pm
There are three reasons why I think she only confunded Mclaggen once was:

1. Ron was better than the other keapers in the Griffindor triouts(sp), after all they only just saved one or two goals execpt Mclaggen.

2. Ginny was shooting the quaffle. Rons been playing with her for sometime
and during the summer, so he probaly knew her moves and where to save it.

3. If Hermione had confund Mclaggen more than twice I think it would have been too obvious that something was not right here. If I renember renember Mclaggen does not complaining about being confunded.

So Hermione knew that Ron had good chance as long as he thinks that he is the best.

Freaky
August 16th, 2005, 4:47 pm
As far as the canary bit goes, I think she is just so fed up with the fact that Ron hasn't noticed she likes him more than a friend, or certainly isn't acting upon any feelings/emotions they've shown in the past.

As for Aragog, haven't all the students been told they are not to leave the castle (they're not supposed to anyway, but even more so now) and that just goes back to "not rule breaking"?

I think on the whole that Hermione is just growing up, realising that sometimes the rules can be broken as sometimes friends are more important. If you remember, she has said she will not come back to Hogwarts next year but go with Harry - who could ever have thought that possible?

I like Hermione, her friends are finally the most important thing and she has grown up and relaxed about the things that don't really matter. (When she thought Harry had given Ron the luck potion, she knew that was illegal. Confunding McLaggen, for whatever reasons, was not actually illegal.)

Nobleone
August 16th, 2005, 6:51 pm
There is a different thread on the ever evolving Hermione that I read before (months ago). Like others, I don't have time to read all 30 pgs, but I do want to point out that Hermione's played fast and loose with the rules before. Starting with lying about the troll, through to the Polyjuice Potion, etc. I'm suprised that people are suprised she confunded McClaggen. I believe that this is all leading up to something in future...

IceKat55
August 16th, 2005, 7:05 pm
I think on the whole that Hermione is just growing up, realising that sometimes the rules can be broken as sometimes friends are more important. If you remember, she has said she will not come back to Hogwarts next year but go with Harry - who could ever have thought that possible?

I like Hermione, her friends are finally the most important thing and she has grown up and relaxed about the things that don't really matter.
Very true. Rowling has said in past interviews that Hermione is a good girl, but that she would "lighten up" a bit, as far as the rules are concerned. And over the course of the series, we've seen that to be the case. She has lightened up.

Hermione was not drastically different in HBP. She was more emotional regarding her jealousy about Ron, certainly. But as far as the major aspects of her character...nope, no different. :)

froggie2688
August 16th, 2005, 7:42 pm
Well poor, Hermione is just not herself. I think she is just upset because this time things are not going her way. Nobody believe Harry about Draco, so maybe there is hidden Irony about what is really going on. The loose ends of these novels are really hanging loose. She wasn't the best in potions and Harry never was and she wasn't snogging Won-Won so what is the poor girl suppose to do. I feel her pain...

broomstickluv
August 16th, 2005, 8:07 pm
I think Hermione is just REALLY mad the whole book. Nothing seemed to go her way...and that would make anyone mad. i think she will change back to her normal self in the seventh book. She really did like Ron, and I think that's definetly what made her angry the most. It didn't really annoy me that much...it made her seem more like a real girl.

blue3ski
August 17th, 2005, 1:06 pm
There are three reasons why I think she only confunded Mclaggen once was:

1. Ron was better than the other keapers in the Griffindor triouts(sp), after all they only just saved one or two goals execpt Mclaggen.

2. Ginny was shooting the quaffle. Rons been playing with her for sometime
and during the summer, so he probaly knew her moves and where to save it.

3. If Hermione had confund Mclaggen more than twice I think it would have been too obvious that something was not right here. If I renember renember Mclaggen does not complaining about being confunded.

So Hermione knew that Ron had good chance as long as he thinks that he is the best.

How does Hermione know that he will indeed do better than the other Keepers and save more than one or two? Remember, Ron does have a history of falling apart when he's rattled. And we see in that scene that he was indeed rattled.

Yes, we know that Ron's played with Ginny over the summer, but he does not necessarily know her moves. McLaggen's complaint was somewhere along these lines, and Harry told him that it was Ginny's shot that Ron nearly missed. Besides, she was not the only one shooting, I believe. Katie and Demelza took part as well, based on Harry's statement.

Even with McLaggen confunded, Ron's spirits weren't exactly high. He did not, and still does not, think that he is "the best", which is why I don't agree with the argument that Hermione jinxed McLaggen to make Ron more confident.

Hermione only intended for McLaggen to look stupid. She confunded him not to help Ron, but just to make him look like an idiot.

A rebuttal to your third point: Hermione, if she had wanted to curse McLaggen more than once (which I don't think, as stated above) would not have to keep using the Confundus. With the amount of jinxes she knows, she does not have to. She could have used a charm that made you slide off your broom next, one that affected your vision, etc.

janastasia
August 19th, 2005, 11:14 pm
I don't think Hermione changed at all. I mean her "changes" were:

1) Not believing Harry
well she would of believed him if he had proof, had seen anything for sure, and had even been telling a likely story in the first place. He SAW LV return, but this, in her opinion, was another Loony Lovegood theory.

2)Jealousy of Lavender
She never had to be jealous before, did she?

3) Jealous of the HBP
I just think that she didn't wanted the rules to be broken. Jealous was just what Ron called it. Right accusation for the wrong reason

This is just the Hermione that we've never had to see before, not that wasn't there at all

meesha1971
August 20th, 2005, 12:05 am
There are three reasons why I think she only confunded Mclaggen once was:

1. Ron was better than the other keapers in the Griffindor triouts(sp), after all they only just saved one or two goals execpt Mclaggen.

She had no way to know how Ron would do on his tryout. McLaggen tried out first and Ron went last. They were the only ones trying out for keeper. Unless Hermione is psychic, there is no way she could predict the outcome of the tryouts. Harry was worried because McLaggen did so well. He was afraid that McLaggen only missing one goal would cause Ron to lose confidence and mess up. He was relieved when Ron saved all of his goals.

2. Ginny was shooting the quaffle. Rons been playing with her for sometime and during the summer, so he probaly knew her moves and where to save it.

That doesn't hold water because Ginny's shot was the one Ron almost missed. McLaggen tried to use that against Ron as well.

3. If Hermione had confund Mclaggen more than twice I think it would have been too obvious that something was not right here. If I renember renember Mclaggen does not complaining about being confunded.

Actually, once someone has been confunded the effect lasts for awhile. Hermione confunded McLaggen just before the last shot, which caused him to miss it. When they saw McLaggen later on, he walked into a wall - he was clearly still confunded.

It isn't a matter of which spell she used or the number of times. It is a matter of when she chose to do it. Had she done it in order to help Ron get on the team, she would have confunded him sooner, which would have caused him to miss more than one goal.

So Hermione knew that Ron had good chance as long as he thinks that he is the best.

Ron had a good shot as long as he kept his confidence in himself. Hermione's actions were not enough to increase his confidence that much. McLaggen missing one goal was not really that helpful to Ron. It basically meant that Ron had to make ALL of his saves in order to make the team. That's not much of a confidence booster, IMO.

Ron doesn't think he is "the best" at anything. Even after he made the team, his performance fluctuated based on his confidence. When practice went badly, his confidence grew steadily worse until Harry made him think he had taken the lucky potion. That helped his confidence more than anything Hermione did.

The only clear reason for Hermione confunding McLaggen is the fact that he made her angry because he was insulting her friends and she saw that the was arrogant, egotistical, and had a bad temper. She took it upon herself to deflate his ego a little bit.

ox_Jo_xo
August 20th, 2005, 1:43 am
I also noticed that she was a bit.... odd or different in this book. She seemed very much in tune with her emotions. She also became more girly. She seemed to care more about how she looked and what other people thought about her. I always thought Hermione would be the one who didn't care what other people thought and wouldn't let her emotions get the best of her, but obviously I was wrong. I think it might be better for Harry and Ron, though, to actually have a girl-friend that actually acts like a girl. I think it might help them in the area of girls. I hope that Ron notices very much so and finally realizes that he has feelings for Hermione and Hermione likes him back. Let's cross our fingers, eh?

astaire
August 20th, 2005, 5:21 am
I wasn't that surprised in Hermione's actions during HBP. I never figured her as the type of person to not care what other people think. Like Ron, she's got insecurities that were created long before entering Hogwarts. She has a strong fear of failure and rejection. I thought it was very interesting to see those traits come out in HBP. She seemed more human and more realistic to me.

Mpol
August 20th, 2005, 4:03 pm
I AGREE, AND PEOPLE please don't hate hermione's character now. jk is a very intentional writter, characters change for a reason! some thing is either up (imperius curse, but i doubt it!) or hermione like ron was finding herself a bit. jk didnt ruin hermione, all it is that we now see her as human, a little more anyways. i think she needed to go through this faze to realise the strengths she will need to posses for the next book, as did ron! this wasnt jk's way of having her characters mature, it was her way of having her chaarcters find who they are, as they will need to know their strengths and weaknesses. this book's overall theme (other than the one of love) was unity. jk showed they weaknesses of both ron and hermy when they are not unified, apart. they acted alitle like this in PoA, immature, selfish, whatever! jk needed to show what they would be like if they were not unified, together and the weaknesses this brings out in them! hermione is also in love and acted irationaly at times, those who have been in love and have had this person go to another, know they can act very different! hermione's change was intentional, jk also knows when ur 16 u start to ask questions, the world seems less black and white, hermione could have been questioning herslef alot, i mean this does sound feesable as harry did it in book 5, and book 6 exposed hermione's weaknesses because of this. lets be thankful she did that now as apose to book 7, because she would have been even more vulnerable to voldermort! after the hole ron/lavy thing was finished, she was her normal self again, though! jk needed ron and nermy to be teenagers in this book. if this was not the case people would b sayin y havent they grown and y r they the same! jk needed to show the trio's weaknesses in the past two books so they are now primed and totally ready for the fight in book 7!

what she did was worse than cursing someone behond their back. wel im sory, but i agree with the others when they say it is in her character. she isn't a bad person! she's growing up! and that is a justifablee excuse. have u ever heard someone critise your friend then u retaliate in an justifable way!? it's wats teens do, she is finding herself and is in love with one the people who was being riticuled unfairly! andi thought she confounded rin because she wanted to help him, i cant remember anything bout Maca sayin something so she did that?! im read HBP again so ill b there soon and c wat it says, lol!

Dragonious
August 20th, 2005, 4:27 pm
he was always the mature, compassionate, sometimes nagging, but always righteous kind of person.
Yeah and then she went berserk with the birds on Ron. I can see how love finally got to Hermione's head. I just don't understand why she couldn't tell Ron she has feelings...(I wait, umm...yes I can).
Harry was making better grades in potions then she was. Yeah, I think thats another reason Hermione feels intimidated by someone elses high grades, specially when Harry and Ron (well Ron so much as Harry) have put up with her know-it-all personality.
Yeah, like Mpol says: don't hate hermione's character now Wasted energy and all.

Wimsey
August 20th, 2005, 4:36 pm
I also noticed that she was a bit.... odd or different in this book. She seemed very much in tune with her emotions.

Hermione always has been in tune with her emotions! JKR pointed out as far back as 1999 (after PoA) that Hermione knew exactly what was up between herself and Ron, but that Ron did not.

She also became more girly. She seemed to care more about how she looked and what other people thought about her.

Hermione has always cared a great deal about what people thought of her. Hermione's "swottiness" (here, her obsession with making sure that everyone knows that she is the most intelligent, best studied, etc., student at Hogwarts) screams this. JKR has noted that this stems, in part, from Hermione's insecurities about herself because she is (or was) a fairly plain girl.

That being said, Hermione was always very girly. Remember how goofy she gets over Lockhart? JKR said early on that she wanted to use Hermione to show that bright plain girls had all of the same emotions as other girls. Indeed, the books have been criticized because Hermione is so prissy in the first 2-3 books: it is not until PoA that she really starts to cut loose.


I always thought Hermione would be the one who didn't care what other people thought and wouldn't let her emotions get the best of her, but obviously I was wrong.

If you can find a 17 year old who does not let her or his emotions get the better of her/him on a lot of occassions (especially those involving the other sex), then I urge you to stop spending time in morgues. :eyebrows:

I hope that Ron notices very much so and finally realizes that he has feelings for Hermione and Hermione likes him back. Let's cross our fingers, eh? [/font]

Ron has know that he has feelings for Hermione ever since GoF. He has just assumed that she was out of reach because of Krum. Ron also is a bit of an insecure person: the two are well-suited for each other in that they can build each other up a lot. (Secure people have problems dating insecure people: quite frankly, they drive each other nuts....)

Yeah and then she went berserk with the birds on Ron. I can see how love finally got to Hermione's head. I just don't understand why she couldn't tell Ron she has feelings...(I wait, umm...yes I can).

Hermione was referring to this in particular in OotP, after Harry asked why Cho just did not ask Harry whether he fancied her (Cho). Hermione said that girls don't often do that.

As a plain girl who desperately wants affirmation from others, Hermione almost certainly wants Ron to initiate things. Most women do, in my experience!


Yeah, I think thats another reason Hermione feels intimidated by someone elses high grades, specially when Harry and Ron (well Ron so much as Harry) have put up with her know-it-all personality.

Pretty much!

Mpol
August 20th, 2005, 5:30 pm
i love you guys, now just say all of what yoursayin in the rate it section to shoosh up all those who didint like the book for this reason! lol a totally agree Wimsey!

pale_rider
August 20th, 2005, 6:05 pm
Er... wow! O.O I've never felt more offended by a thread in my life. Nearly every person has generalized teenage girls as being emotional and b*tchy when they hit a certain age or fall in love. Though, I admit I'm not yet even 16, I can safely say that I have been in love (and have recently passed the age where all my friends were very emotional an unneccessarily large amount of the year). I acted nothing like Hermione when the guy I fell for was too dull to see my obvious attraction to him; I figured shortly after that if he can't see the obvious, it'd be best if we stayed friends. This is honestly how I thought Hermione would eventually act about Ron's lack of observation skills. But no, instead she sends a flock of cannaries on him to injure him (it could have been badly).

I had always felt a sort of... bond with Hermione's character - all the way back to when I was 7 and first began reading the series. I've always been labelled as a bookworm (which is true) and I'm a bit bossy; not to the degree of Hermione, but I can understand where she had been coming from. But now, this ugly change of character that she's had. I just felt bombarded by this sudden change in what was, once, a teenage girl much like myself. Suddenly, she turns 17 and starts acting like a jealous 12 year old? That's not how I thought I'd ever see Hermione react, not even if JKR decided to write another 10 HP books.

Everyone also has to remember that Hermione is not your average teenager. That's what alot of people seem to be missing. It's very rare to come across a girl who is helping her bestfriend attempt to kill someone that killd his parents when he was a child. If ever I meet someone in real life who is just like Hermione, I will strip down to my knickers and run around the football field at my school for a week without stopping :p Well... no, I won't. You also need to understand that it seems that everyone matured faster than Hermione - except maybe Ron. Harry is understandable - with what he found out and what happened in OotP, I'd be shocked if he wasn't mature by now. I'll even give it to you that Draco being more mature than Hermione in HBP is understandable. But, really, what's with the sudden 'Super Mature!Ginny'? Hermione may be maturing alot slower than everyone else, as that really seems like what's happening in light of HBP events, but the one person I thought she would always be more mature than Ginny. After all, she's nearly 2 years older, isn't she?

I think I'm rambling, I can't tell as I haven't slept in a while. But, my point is, Hermione's sudden attitude change towards... well, everything almost, seems too sudden. Too unrealistic for me to continue enjoying Hermione's character like I used to. Or enjoying it at all really. Meh, I'm sure someone can pull something out of my mess of a post to reply to. Or you can ignor me completely. *shrugs and t00bles off*

cgold
August 20th, 2005, 6:35 pm
[size=1]Er... wow! O.O I've never felt more offended by a thread in my life. Nearly every person has generalized teenage girls as being emotional and b*tchy when they hit a certain age or fall in love. Though, I admit I'm not yet even 16, I can safely say that I have been in love (and have recently passed the age where all my friends were very emotional an unneccessarily large amount of the year). I acted nothing like Hermione when the guy I fell for was too dull to see my obvious attraction to him; I figured shortly after that if he can't see the obvious, it'd be best if we stayed friends. This is honestly how I thought Hermione would eventually act about Ron's lack of observation skills. But no, instead she sends a flock of cannaries on him to injure him (it could have been badly).
No one is really trying to offend teenagers it's just how they are. Just like mothers are often viewed as overprotective, siblings bicker, etc it just normal that teenagers are angsty and overemotional (in my opinion). I don't think your situation is the same as Hermione's in HBP. Your situation seems to be more reflective of the situation in OotP where she acted as you appeared to. It's not as if Hermione just suddenly got frustrated one day and said "You know what? To hell with Ronald Weasley for not seeing my love" and decided to attack him with canaries. There were extenuating circumstances. She has liked this guy from PoA (if not before but she just didn't know) and to suddenly find him openly snogging another girl after she has tentatively asked him on a date, plus he was being horrible to her for no reason she could fathom would drive anyone a little nuts. All I'm trying to say is that this was not your situation and you don't know how you may have reacted (well since you're not magical the canary attack would be moot) and even if you remained unnaturally stoic through it all, it wouldn't have come off as believable to me if Hermione had, based on how I viewed her emotional personality from the previous books.

I had always felt a sort of... bond with Hermione's character - all the way back to when I was 7 and first began reading the series. I've always been labelled as a bookworm (which is true) and I'm a bit bossy; not to the degree of Hermione, but I can understand where she had been coming from. But now, this ugly change of character that she's had. I just felt bombarded by this sudden change in what was, once, a teenage girl much like myself. Suddenly, she turns 17 and starts acting like a jealous 12 year old? That's not how I thought I'd ever see Hermione react, not even if JKR decided to write another 10 HP books.
Everyone also has to remember that Hermione is not your average teenager. That's what alot of people seem to be missing. It's very rare to come across a girl who is helping her bestfriend attempt to kill someone that killd his parents when he was a child. If ever I meet someone in real life who is just like Hermione, I will strip down to my knickers and run around the football field at my school for a week without stopping :p Well... no, I won't. You also need to understand that it seems that everyone matured faster than Hermione - except maybe Ron. Harry is understandable - with what he found out and what happened in OotP, I'd be shocked if he wasn't mature by now. I'll even give it to you that Draco being more mature than Hermione in HBP is understandable. But, really, what's with the sudden 'Super Mature!Ginny'? Hermione may be maturing alot slower than everyone else, as that really seems like what's happening in light of HBP events, but the one person I thought she would always be more mature than Ginny. After all, she's nearly 2 years older, isn't she?
Hermione has always been more mature than the others and it has given her somewhat of a reputation of almost being able to do no wrong especially to those who overidentified with her character. Sometimes they missed certain character traits because it wasn't similar to theirs (that's my opinion, I don't identify with her so I don't know). She was more emotional and insecure in HBP than usual and to compare her with a much more confident Ginny who was not going through similar circumstances isn't very fair. Ginny was popular, great at quidditch and got her guy during this book. Not a very good time for comparisons IMO. This book had Hermione dealing with too many emotional upheavals to continue being exactly like she has before:

1. Ron (the guy she has fancied for years) has suddenly taken up with another girl.
2. Best in school (Hermione handles her insecurities by overcompensating when it comes to studying) - this is Hermione's crutch so to speak, being top of all her classes and for Harry to come and take it away by cheating was probably a bit more than she could handle. Natural abilities like DADA she could accept but not this.
3. The wizarding world is fully at war and as a muggleborn she would have been in quite enough danger but she's also friends with Harry Potter and the blood traitors, the Weasleys.

These are all things that would cause some reaction from her. However, based on hints from previous books these reactions should have been expected and I would not refer to them as character changes but as responses to situations Hermione has not been presented with previously.

Well this is my opinion anyway and you're entitled to yours of course. I didn't feel as if Hermione changed except for the normal growing up (I don't expect her to act like 12 forever) I just felt as if her circumstances changed.

Cheers.

shh227
August 20th, 2005, 6:39 pm
meesha1971 thnks for explaining, I fogot that the cunfunding effect lasts for a while.
This is the first time I relised Hermione really did love Ron from a very long time. I mean ron loved hermione but we did not really know if hermione loved ron. We just had these small clues which were a bit vague and also due to the H/H fans.

I think will be seeing more R/H

Laura_Weasley
August 20th, 2005, 6:40 pm
Hermiones only changed because she loves Ron! Shes still a bookworm and with the whole potions thing, shes always been top of the class and doesnt like cheating, which harrys doing with the book. Everyone gets jealous, and i like Hermione now, shes just growing up

pale_rider
August 20th, 2005, 7:13 pm
No one is really trying to offend teenagers it's just how they are. Just like mothers are often viewed as overprotective, siblings bicker, etc it just normal that teenagers are angsty and overemotional (in my opinion). I don't think your situation is the same as Hermione's in HBP. Your situation seems to be more reflective of the situation in OotP where she acted as you appeared to. It's not as if Hermione just suddenly got frustrated one day and said "You know what? To hell with Ronald Weasley for not seeing my love" and decided to attack him with canaries. There were extenuating circumstances. She has liked this guy from PoA (if not before but she just didn't know) and to suddenly find him openly snogging another girl after she has tentatively asked him on a date, plus he was being horrible to her for no reason she could fathom would drive anyone a little nuts. All I'm trying to say is that this was not your situation and you don't know how you may have reacted (well since you're not magical the canary attack would be moot) and even if you remained unnaturally stoic through it all, it wouldn't have come off as believable to me if Hermione had, based on how I viewed her emotional personality from the previous books.I wasn't trying to imply that anyone was trying to offend teenagers. Hell, I'm sure that more than half of my school wouldn't be offended by this thread. I was just saying that it personally offends me that people can be so judgemental and prejudice when it comes to teens. It's obvious that you and I are going to differentiate on this and you're tone seems to be very hostile, so I will refrain from making an unneccessary rebutle about you referring to my attitude as unnaturally stoic.

Hermione has always been more mature than the others and it has given her somewhat of a reputation of almost being able to do no wrong especially to those who overidentified with her character. Sometimes they missed certain character traits because it wasn't similar to theirs (that's my opinion, I don't identify with her so I don't know). She was more emotional and insecure in HBP than usual and to compare her with a much more confident Ginny who was not going through similar circumstances isn't very fair. Ginny was popular, great at quidditch and got her guy during this book. Not a very good time for comparisons IMO. This book had Hermione dealing with too many emotional upheavals to continue being exactly like she has before:

1. Ron (the guy she has fancied for years) has suddenly taken up with another girl.
2. Best in school (Hermione handles her insecurities by overcompensating when it comes to studying) - this is Hermione's crutch so to speak, being top of all her classes and for Harry to come and take it away by cheating was probably a bit more than she could handle. Natural abilities like DADA she could accept but not this.
3. The wizarding world is fully at war and as a muggleborn she would have been in quite enough danger but she's also friends with Harry Potter and the blood traitors, the Weasleys.Well, I totally disagree with you. Never, ever, have I viewed Hermione as someone who can do no wrong. I have seen her as a human being and I think that anyone who has seen Hermione as someone who can't do wrong has not read the books properly.

Wow! What on Earth would you call Ginny's situation then? Easy?
1. Ginny obviously fancied Harry for years and I don't recall her sending canaries on him when he had 'suddenly taken up with another girl (Cho).'

2. I'll give you that one, but I was very intrigued by HBP's potions book and I was waiting for the moment when Hermione would cave and ask Harry if she could study the book. It is not cheating to get help from someone's notes. If you borrow a student's notes to help you write a particularily hard essay, - or even an easy one - nobody would call you a cheater. I don't see how this is any different than what Harry was doing using Snape's notes to help him. Hermione's lack of interest just seemed very strange when she's always shown great interest in anything (or nearly anything) that involved Harry.

3. What?! How could the war not have the same impact on Ginny? A worse impact since she obviously has very strong feelings for Harry, is friends with Hermione, and is a Weasley. If anything, I'd say that Ginny's situation is alot harder than Hermione's. However, not once do we see Ginny act as immaturely as we see Hermione act. If Hermione is so much more mature than everyone, why is she so pre-teenish in this book? I mean, she was more mature in OotP than she was in HBP. I don't understand the sudden character change.

granger_h
August 20th, 2005, 7:45 pm
1hp2 has a great point, of corse their caractors will change, i mean ron wouldnt go around snogging lavender all day and harry wouldnt have had the fling with cho if they hadnt matured and hermionie has also matured and learnt that following the rules isnt the most important thing in life.

cgold
August 20th, 2005, 7:49 pm
I wasn't trying to imply that anyone was trying to offend teenagers. Hell, I'm sure that more than half of my school wouldn't be offended by this thread. I was just saying that it personally offends me that people can be so judgemental and prejudice when it comes to teens. It's obvious that you and I are going to differentiate on this and you're tone seems to be very hostile, so I will refrain from making an unneccessary rebutle about you referring to my attitude as unnaturally stoic.
I'm extremely sorry if my tone came off as hostile because I was actually viewing you in a positive light over your reaction towards your crush :angel: . Not many teenagers are like that and I haven't met a lot of adults like that too which is why it would appear unnatural to me. Please do not take offence at this statement and do provide a rebuttal if you have one.
Well, I totally disagree with you. Never, ever, have I viewed Hermione as someone who can do no wrong. I have seen her as a human being and I think that anyone who has seen Hermione as someone who can't do wrong has not read the books properly.
Well, you aren't disagreeing with me per se here. I just said some people viewed her that way and since you don't then :tu: It's just that you were calling her names for being naturally upset about the events that I listed in my previous post and therefore, I assumed that you viewed her as somewhat perfect and wouldn't be emotionally disturbed by these situations.

Wow! What on Earth would you call Ginny's situation then? Easy?
1. Ginny obviously fancied Harry for years and I don't recall her sending canaries on him when he had 'suddenly taken up with another girl (Cho).'
I was referring to HBP Ginny at this time. I was mainly saying it's not a good time to compare HBP Ginny with HBP Hermione because of the disparity in their situations. Harry hadn't given Ginny any reason whatsoever for her to be angry with him going out with another girl. Hermione is a different situation. It's almost as if Ron "cheated" on Hermione as she had just asked him to Slughorn's party plus they have been pussyfooting around each other for years. She knows he likes her and has been waiting on him to GROW UP and get a move on for years and then after all this waiting he goes off and snog Lavendar. This is how I know that Hermione and I do not identify and why I thought she handled the situation as maturely as she could because if that were me there is no way I wouldn't have gone and *****-slapped Ron right there in the common room. Instead she went outside to lick her wounds and while it was still fresh he comes bursting in with Lavendar (in a private classroom). This is my opinion only, but if Hermione hadn't done something that time I would think she really wasn't human or under an imperious curse.


2. I'll give you that one, but I was very intrigued by HBP's potions book and I was waiting for the moment when Hermione would cave and ask Harry if she could study the book. It is not cheating to get help from someone's notes. If you borrow a student's notes to help you write a particularily hard essay, - or even an easy one - nobody would call you a cheater. I don't see how this is any different than what Harry was doing using Snape's notes to help him. Hermione's lack of interest just seemed very strange when she's always shown great interest in anything (or nearly anything) that involved Harry.
Whew. I got one :p . No, it's not really different to me in some respects. I mean Harry was just following different instructions. Hermione helps Ron and Harry with their homework all the time and this is "cheating" too in my opinion. It's just that they never do better than her while she helps them. Also, there is no way Hermione would have asked to look at the book because she has already taken her stand against it and felt there may be something dark about. She was very interested in the book but only to find out where it came from. She really did put a lot of energy into this if you recall.

3. What?! How could the war not have the same impact on Ginny? A worse impact since she obviously has very strong feelings for Harry, is friends with Hermione, and is a Weasley. If anything, I'd say that Ginny's situation is alot harder than Hermione's. However, not once do we see Ginny act as immaturely as we see Hermione act. If Hermione is so much more mature than everyone, why is she so pre-teenish in this book? I mean, she was more mature in OotP than she was in HBP. I don't understand the sudden character change.
You are correct in stating that the war is affecting Ginny as well. I was just listing all the reasons why Hermione would be acting a little differently than in books 1-5. Also, while Ginny has the support of her family in the wizarding world, Hermione is somewhat alone and more visible in that respect, but I definitely see your point and I'm not going to argue "who's more vulnerable" because we could both win. However, as I said before it's not a character change - it's a change of circumstances that allowed previous character traits, like her intense jealousy, which had only been glimpsed during scenes like when Fleur kissed Ron, was more openly displayed in this book because Ron had a full-fledged girlfriend snogging around her all the time. This has not happened in the previous books. She did not regress, she became more human. Jealousy is not an emotion limited to pre-teens and attacking someone because you're jealous is also not a sign that you're not an overall mature person. These things happen, sometimes frustration can overcome our good sense.

Anyway, once I again. I apologise if it seemed as if I was attacking you. I was not :angel: , it's probably just the way I write.

Cheers :blush:

Emerald63
August 21st, 2005, 1:19 am
I've been following the discussion between pale_rider and cgold starting with the post quoted below. I must say, you are both extremely good writers and are very observant of human behavior! That said, may I offer my own humble opinions as well?

Er... wow! O.O I've never felt more offended by a thread in my life. Nearly every person has generalized teenage girls as being emotional and b*tchy when they hit a certain age or fall in love. Though, I admit I'm not yet even 16, I can safely say that I have been in love (and have recently passed the age where all my friends were very emotional an unneccessarily large amount of the year). I acted nothing like Hermione when the guy I fell for was too dull to see my obvious attraction to him; I figured shortly after that if he can't see the obvious, it'd be best if we stayed friends. This is honestly how I thought Hermione would eventually act about Ron's lack of observation skills. But no, instead she sends a flock of cannaries on him to injure him (it could have been badly).pale_rider, your reaction to the boy who didn't notice you was not only mature, it showed a great deal of self-confidence! Even many adults would not have been able to react so rationally without becoming incredibly insecure instead, or as an additional side effect at least. Cudos to you.

While reading this discussion I noted again my own observation that, while Hermione is very self-confident about her intellect, she is not always self-confident about other aspects of life. She already knows she's not as pretty as many other girls. Otherwise, she would not have been so mortified by Snape's comment about "seeing no difference" when Malfoy jinxed her teeth to grow bigger. She was already self-conscious about that; his highlighting it publicly sent her off in tears.

Having been an intellectually oriented person most of my life, I can say from experience that self-confidence in that area does not always extend to other areas. I am guessing here, but I think perhaps having such apparent self-confidence across the boards (even if you may not recognize this about yourself yet) kept you from seeing that Hermione's self-confidence is limited to fewer areas.

I had always felt a sort of... bond with Hermione's character - all the way back to when I was 7 and first began reading the series. I've always been labelled as a bookworm (which is true) and I'm a bit bossy; not to the degree of Hermione, but I can understand where she had been coming from. But now, this ugly change of character that she's had. I just felt bombarded by this sudden change in what was, once, a teenage girl much like myself. Suddenly, she turns 17 and starts acting like a jealous 12 year old? That's not how I thought I'd ever see Hermione react, not even if JKR decided to write another 10 HP books.As others have said, we've seen Hermione responding to her emotions before now. But the reasons she's being emotional now have changed. Her old responses don't apply anymore. Hence the appearance of change. The new reasons have also happened to push her buttons in the areas she is most insecure about. Hence an even bigger appearance of change. But it wasn't really change... her potential to act this way was, I believe, always within her. The circumstances that would bring it out simply hadn't happened before HBP.

Everyone also has to remember that Hermione is not your average teenager. That's what alot of people seem to be missing. It's very rare to come across a girl who is helping her bestfriend attempt to kill someone that killd his parents when he was a child.In this way no, she is not an average teenager. But in many other ways she is. I think she's only just finding this out herself, too. Before now, she's been the brightest and best witch at Hogwarts. But now that classification has ceased to be the only reward she needs. She needs the same kind of attention and affection as all the other girls her age. Never having recognized such similarity to other girls before, I think she's rather surprised at just how much not getting that attention and affection can make her hurt... and there's nothing she can do about it. Only Ron can decide whether to give that to her, no matter how much she needs it.

I don't think she's ever really been in the position of not being able to attain exactly what she needed or wanted before. Even when Ron's insults sent her into the bathroom to cry all day in PS/SS, had the troll not come in I think she would have been able to pull herself together, eventually letting her superior schoolwork assuage her pain. And even after the Yule BAll in GoF, her oh-so-satisfying "ergo sum" rejoinder to Ron that, if he didn't like her going out with other boys he ought to ask her out himself, was based in intellect and logic. But the rewards she gets from her intellect is simply no longer enough to keep her need for emotional attention and the pain of not getting it at bay. (I have been in this exact position myself - and it was a stunning surprise, let me tell you!)

And while you, pale_rider, were secure enough to overlook the boy you liked being "dull," less secure people, or just people so deeply in love they can't seem to let go, aren't always able to do that. I'm not implying you weren't really in love with the dull boy! But even if you were, you still managed to move past him not feeling the same way about you. What I am implying is that not everyone is able to do that, including Hermione. Unfortunately, I think (read: guess) that as Jo starts to highlight things that make Hermione different than you, you've felt Hermione is changing. I don't think so... simply that things you (and we) didn't know before, things that might have altered your identifying with her previously, are just now coming out.

But, really, what's with the sudden 'Super Mature!Ginny'? Hermione may be maturing alot slower than everyone else, as that really seems like what's happening in light of HBP events, but the one person I thought she would always be more mature than Ginny. After all, she's nearly 2 years older, isn't she?As the example of your own behavior (towards the dull boy you liked) shows, age isn't always the determining factor in maturity, considering the number of adults who wouldn't have handled things the same way you did. And maturing isn't always a linear event either. It can grow in increments rather than steadily. People can even have lengthy lapses, regressing to less maturity. I know that sounds wrong, but I've seen it happen more than once... and not always in teens either! I also wonder if Ginny's "maturity" might seem greater because she is definitely more self-confident than Hermione about personal matters. It's usually much easier to appear mature when one is not being undermined by insecurities, which often make people act like morons and/or jerks, i.e. - immature.

I think I'm rambling, I can't tell as I haven't slept in a while. But, my point is, Hermione's sudden attitude change towards... well, everything almost, seems too sudden. Too unrealistic for me to continue enjoying Hermione's character like I used to. Or enjoying it at all really. Meh, I'm sure someone can pull something out of my mess of a post to reply to. Or you can ignor me completely. *shrugs and t00bles off*On the contrary, I didn't feel you were rambling at all. I thought you made a very well-stated case for your feelings, concerning both Hermione and the other posts on the thread! :tu: I would like to propose the following, if you are willing to consider it: Hermione's character change is not sudden.... but instead, your recognition of the differences between Hermione and yourself is sudden. This does not reflect on you so much as on Jo, as she is just now putting Hermione in situations that would give you the information that would let you see those differences. Of course, the result is still the same - you no longer feel as close to Hermione as you did and, thus, do not enjoy her character as much. That really is unfortunate and I'm sad that's happened to you, whatever the reason. :(

May I offer a suggestion? I don't know if this would work, but it might be worth a shot to help you continue to enjoy the books and Hermione's part in them... What if you thought of Hermione as a friend, rather than as someone so reminiscent of yourself? Haven't you known friends who've seemed to change? Sometimes in big ways? But you still liked them and wanted to be friends with them? In cases like that, mature people, as you seem to be, try to understand what has prompted the change and if the reasons and the changes themselves are something they can accept while still enjoying the person's friendship. I wouldn't think you expect all your friends to be exactly like you, so you wouldn't need to expect it of Hermione either to enjoy her "company."

I hope I haven't been too "bossy" myself, or made any gravely incorrect assumptions about you, pale_rider. It's a treat to see an intelligent, thoughtful teen (just one of many) express herself so well, even more of a treat to be able to try to add to your growing up experience. Hope I've done at least a little towards that end. :)

SSJ_Jup81
August 21st, 2005, 3:17 am
1. Ginny obviously fancied Harry for years and I don't recall her sending canaries on him when he had 'suddenly taken up with another girl (Cho).'But Ginny never actually witnessed Harry with Cho the way Hermione did when it came to Ron. Ron was making out with a girl where she could witness it. Also, you must remember that not everyone reacts in the same way when it comes to his or her crush. Hermione, obviously, grows jealous and is very open with it, once she gets to a certain point. Ginny, at no point, ever had to put up with a Harry x Cho "snogfest". Besides, she seemed to be trying to get over him anyway, since she knew Harry didn't like her in that way.2. I'll give you that one, but I was very intrigued by HBP's potions book and I was waiting for the moment when Hermione would cave and ask Harry if she could study the book. It is not cheating to get help from someone's notes. If you borrow a student's notes to help you write a particularily hard essay, - or even an easy one - nobody would call you a cheater. I don't see how this is any different than what Harry was doing using Snape's notes to help him. Hermione's lack of interest just seemed very strange when she's always shown great interest in anything (or nearly anything) that involved Harry.Hermione only show an interest, it seems, when it's directly connected to her as well. Like in book 2, she was into the whole brewing a Polyjuice Potion to not only help the school, but herself as well since she was in danger. Book 5, she was adamant about the whole DA to help benefit her for her OWLs, of course that changed later.

I don't find it strange at all that Hermione wasn't interest in the HBP's book, or what was in it, since she was so deadset against it since Harry was literally cheating and cutting corners, something Hermione does not condone to. She was very in-character, especially since she was more interested in who the HBP was as opposed to what was written in the book.3. What?! How could the war not have the same impact on Ginny? A worse impact since she obviously has very strong feelings for Harry, is friends with Hermione, and is a Weasley. If anything, I'd say that Ginny's situation is alot harder than Hermione's. However, not once do we see Ginny act as immaturely as we see Hermione act. If Hermione is so much more mature than everyone, why is she so pre-teenish in this book? I mean, she was more mature in OotP than she was in HBP. I don't understand the sudden character change.IMO, Hermione's both mature and immature. In the sense of romance pertaining to herself, she's always been immature and clumsy with her feelings. Girls giving Ron attention, Hermione's never acted too pleasantly over it. Just look at how she was towards Fleur, whenever she had Ron's attention, or even Padma's showing interest in him in GoF.

OCD4HP
August 21st, 2005, 3:28 am
Now that you brought it up I do think that Hermione has changed in this book. I don't like most of the people here think that she turned mean or petty but I think she doesn't care as much for Harry as the other books. Think about it...in all the other books she's always scared about Harry and doesn't want him to do anything wrong and get into trouble but in this book she's the one who's getting into trouble. Hermione used to be so protective of her friends now all she cares for is Ron and his girlfriends. I'm not saying Hermione isn't a good friend of Harry's I'm just saying that she isn't the friend she used to be. Send me an owl if u agree:agree: and if u don't agree with me then please don't hate me it's only my opinion.

SSJ_Jup81
August 21st, 2005, 3:43 am
Now that you brought it up I do think that Hermione has changed in this book. I don't like most of the people here think that she turned mean or petty but I think she doesn't care as much for Harry as the other books. Think about it...in all the other books she's always scared about Harry and doesn't want him to do anything wrong and get into trouble but in this book she's the one who's getting into trouble. Hermione used to be so protective of her friends now all she cares for is Ron and his girlfriends. I'm not saying Hermione isn't a good friend of Harry's I'm just saying that she isn't the friend she used to be. Send me an owl if u agree:agree: and if u don't agree with me then please don't hate me it's only my opinion.*Points to OotP and the whole MoM fiasco* If I were Hermione or Ron, I'd be more cautious to Harry's accusations without proof as well. Harry didn't do anything that required Hermione to worry over him or his welfare.

Mpol
August 21st, 2005, 3:48 am
no i don't agree! her changed are not reasons to do with harry as such, more to do with ron and herself as a woman!

OCD4HP
August 21st, 2005, 6:17 am
no i don't agree! her changed are not reasons to do with harry as such, more to do with ron and herself as a woman!
O' I'm sorry :upset: I'm just saying my opinion! :angel:

Pegasus
August 21st, 2005, 6:24 am
I think we're just watching Hermione grow up and being a normal teenage girl. Also, "twitterpation" can do really odd things to people. I've noticed that the people we surround ourselves with can really influence our personalities in real life.

meesha1971
August 21st, 2005, 10:24 am
Er... wow! O.O I've never felt more offended by a thread in my life. Nearly every person has generalized teenage girls as being emotional and b*tchy when they hit a certain age or fall in love. Though, I admit I'm not yet even 16, I can safely say that I have been in love (and have recently passed the age where all my friends were very emotional an unneccessarily large amount of the year). I acted nothing like Hermione when the guy I fell for was too dull to see my obvious attraction to him; I figured shortly after that if he can't see the obvious, it'd be best if we stayed friends. This is honestly how I thought Hermione would eventually act about Ron's lack of observation skills. But no, instead she sends a flock of cannaries on him to injure him (it could have been badly).

Well, I have to say I don’t agree with that characterization of Hermione at all. I don’t think her character has changed because she is suddenly in love or because she suddenly became a teenager and is all emotional now. In fact, I don’t think Hermione’s character has changed at all. Her behavior is consistent throughout the series. Hermione has always been emotional and when she loses her temper she reacts badly. Slapping Malfoy and threatening him with her wand, trapping Rita Skeeter in beetle form in an unbreakable jar and keeping her there for weeks and then blackmailing her for a year, and so on. These were not good or “noble” things for her to do. She lost her temper and showed a tendency for violence and cruelty. Hermione is not by nature a violent or cruel person but, if you push her too far, she will react and sometimes her reactions are violent and/or cruel. Her good qualities far outweigh her bad qualities and, overall, she is a good person.

Hermione did not send canaries after Ron just because he was too thick to realize she was attracted to him. The situation had changed greatly. Had it merely been that he continued to “not notice” or just not do anything about it, Hermione would have carried on stoically, as you did (that’s a compliment to you! :)), and just remained friends with Ron. However, this was not the situation. Hermione took a risk. She made the first move. She asked Ron out AND got him to admit that he didn’t want her to go out with another guy. In her opinion, they were finally making progress in their relationship. Had Ron gone to the party with her, they would have continued to make progress and may have even officially gotten together.

Unbeknownst to Hermione, Ron and Ginny have a huge argument in which Ginny makes fun of Ron for never snogging anyone AND reveals that Hermione snogged Krum. Suddenly, all progress in their relationship is halted. Ron is angry with her and she has no idea why or what happened. Then she walks into the common room and sees him snogging away with Lavender Brown. It was simply too much for her to deal with. She had no idea what had happened, what had gone wrong, or why he had done that to her. It was an emotional slap in the face. Her initial reaction was more mature. She left the scene and went off to cry by herself. Harry found her and tried to comfort his friend. Unfortunately, Ron showed up with Lavender in tow – unintentionally rubbing salt in Hermione’s wounds. Hermione lost her temper and, as she has in the past, reacted violently. Though, I must admit, sending canaries to attack him was pretty tame compared to what she is capable of doing to him.

From what you stated, your situation was completely different. The guy you liked didn’t show signs that he liked you in return and did not accept a date with you and then turn around and start making out with some other girl for no apparent reason. I can honestly say that when I was 17, I would not have handled a situation like that as well as Hermione did. I wouldn’t have left the scene – I would have publicly humiliated myself because of my anger. At least Hermione had the presence of mind to avoid public confrontation. Her behavior is not commendable but it is consistent with her behavior in previous books.

I had always felt a sort of... bond with Hermione's character - all the way back to when I was 7 and first began reading the series. I've always been labelled as a bookworm (which is true) and I'm a bit bossy; not to the degree of Hermione, but I can understand where she had been coming from. But now, this ugly change of character that she's had. I just felt bombarded by this sudden change in what was, once, a teenage girl much like myself. Suddenly, she turns 17 and starts acting like a jealous 12 year old? That's not how I thought I'd ever see Hermione react, not even if JKR decided to write another 10 HP books.

I too feel a bond with Hermione’s character. I am definitely a bookworm, bossy, and can be a bit of a know-it-all. I also had the same deep-seated insecurities when I was 17 that Hermione has. I never thought that I was pretty and felt the need to “prove myself” with my intelligence. In debates on the now extinct Love Thread prior to the release of HBP, I debated intently that I believed that Hermione would show jealousy with anger. When I read that part in HBP, my first thought was “Ron is in BIG trouble now”. I knew Hermione was going to do something. She was not going to sit around and take that lightly. I was actually surprised that all she did was send canaries after him and ignore him for a few months.

This was not an “ugly change of character”. Hermione’s behavior and reactions are completely consistent with the way her character has behaved and reacted in the past. The difference was that, in the past, she has never had to deal with direct competition for Ron’s affections. She showed irritation and anger towards Ron being attracted to Fleur and any attention Fleur paid to him but Fleur was never truly a threat. Ron never dated her or received anything more than a kiss on the cheek. She showed irritation and anger when Padma paid more attention to Ron after the second task but Padma was never truly a threat either. Ron did not date her and didn’t receive any type of kiss from her. The situation with Lavender was new and uncharted territory. Not only did Ron start dating another girl, he did so AFTER accepting a date with Hermione.

Everyone also has to remember that Hermione is not your average teenager. That's what alot of people seem to be missing. It's very rare to come across a girl who is helping her bestfriend attempt to kill someone that killd his parents when he was a child. If ever I meet someone in real life who is just like Hermione, I will strip down to my knickers and run around the football field at my school for a week without stopping :p Well... no, I won't. You also need to understand that it seems that everyone matured faster than Hermione - except maybe Ron. Harry is understandable - with what he found out and what happened in OotP, I'd be shocked if he wasn't mature by now. I'll even give it to you that Draco being more mature than Hermione in HBP is understandable. But, really, what's with the sudden 'Super Mature!Ginny'? Hermione may be maturing alot slower than everyone else, as that really seems like what's happening in light of HBP events, but the one person I thought she would always be more mature than Ginny. After all, she's nearly 2 years older, isn't she?

Hermione is definitely not the “average” teenager. However, she is still a teenage girl and has emotions. Hermione has always been the mature one as well as being older – the others had to catch up to her in terms of maturity. But just because she is the mature one doesn’t mean that she is always going to behave and react maturely. Even though she is the most mature of the group, she still loses her temper on occasion and reacts immaturely. Again, this is consistent with her behavior in the past.

As for Ginny’s maturity, I don’t think she is mature as Hermione. Their situations are completely different. It wasn’t mature of Ginny to tease Ron about never snogging anyone or to tell him that Hermione snogged Krum. It wasn’t mature of Ginny to fly her broom into the commentators stand because Zachariah Smith insulted them. In some situations, Ginny and Hermione show equal maturity. In others, there are differences. Depending on the situation, one will react more maturely than the other.

I think I'm rambling, I can't tell as I haven't slept in a while. But, my point is, Hermione's sudden attitude change towards... well, everything almost, seems too sudden. Too unrealistic for me to continue enjoying Hermione's character like I used to. Or enjoying it at all really. Meh, I'm sure someone can pull something out of my mess of a post to reply to. Or you can ignor me completely. *shrugs and t00bles off*

You made your points well. I just don’t agree with them. Hermione’s behavior is completely consistent throughout the series. When she loses her temper, she sometimes reacts immaturely. That is not a change. Her behavior didn’t change – only the situation changed.

Well, I totally disagree with you. Never, ever, have I viewed Hermione as someone who can do no wrong. I have seen her as a human being and I think that anyone who has seen Hermione as someone who can't do wrong has not read the books properly.

It is such a relief to see that. Hermione’s character is so wonderful because she is not perfect. She is smart, talented, capable, and basically a good person. She is also emotional and has a nasty temper. It makes her character more realistic, IMO.

Wow! What on Earth would you call Ginny's situation then? Easy?
1. Ginny obviously fancied Harry for years and I don't recall her sending canaries on him when he had 'suddenly taken up with another girl (Cho).'

Ginny’s situation is completely different from Hermione’s. Ginny never believed that Harry would return her feelings. Hermione’s advice may have given her some hope but she was attempting to move on and date other people. Harry never gave her any reason to hope that he might return her feelings. Harry never showed jealousy towards her boyfriends – even when he did feel jealous he didn’t show it outwardly because he was worried about how Ron would react to him wanting to date Ginny. Ginny never asked Harry on a date and Harry never accepted and then turned around and started snogging somebody else in the common room.

Had Harry done to Ginny what Ron did to Hermione, I think he would have found out first hand how the Bat-Bogie Hex feels. I also think that Ginny would have done it right in the middle of the common room. She wouldn’t have left the room to go cry somewhere else.

2. I'll give you that one, but I was very intrigued by HBP's potions book and I was waiting for the moment when Hermione would cave and ask Harry if she could study the book. It is not cheating to get help from someone's notes. If you borrow a student's notes to help you write a particularily hard essay, - or even an easy one - nobody would call you a cheater. I don't see how this is any different than what Harry was doing using Snape's notes to help him. Hermione's lack of interest just seemed very strange when she's always shown great interest in anything (or nearly anything) that involved Harry.

Actually, using a book that has all the answers marked and extra information IS considered cheating. In my high school, nobody was allowed to write in the textbooks. At the end of the year, we had to turn our textbooks in. Any books that had been written in were promptly destroyed and that student’s family was responsible for the price of a new book. Harry had an advantage over the other students. He didn’t learn anything by using that book. He didn’t understand the theory behind the potions he was making. He was copying someone else’s work. He didn’t have to read the chapters or study – all of the work had been done for him. All he had to do was follow the Prince’s instructions and he was guaranteed a good grade.

Copying someone else’s notes is not the same. The potions book didn’t have notes scribbled in that Harry had to study and figure out on his own. It had everything done for him. All he had to do was follow the instructions. He didn’t learn anything. The point of the class is to learn how to brew potions properly. That’s why they have to do the essays. They are supposed to learn what the ingredients do – what ingredients shouldn’t be mixed – and so on. Harry didn’t learn anything and had he been caught with that book he would have gotten in trouble and the book would most likely have been confiscated.

For someone like Hermione, who puts a tremendous amount of effort into studying and learning and believes in EARNING her good grades, that would be hard to deal with. She is working very hard, studying, looking things up, and trying to understand the theory behind it – exactly what they are supposed to be doing. Harry is copying the instructions written by someone who did all that work. He is not studying, trying to understand the theory, or learning anything. That is cheating.

3. What?! How could the war not have the same impact on Ginny? A worse impact since she obviously has very strong feelings for Harry, is friends with Hermione, and is a Weasley. If anything, I'd say that Ginny's situation is alot harder than Hermione's. However, not once do we see Ginny act as immaturely as we see Hermione act. If Hermione is so much more mature than everyone, why is she so pre-teenish in this book? I mean, she was more mature in OotP than she was in HBP. I don't understand the sudden character change.

The war has an impact on them all. The Weasleys are a large family, the majority of them are in the Order and fighting against Voldemort. Ron is Harry’s best friend and the Weasleys consider him part of the family. They are in danger because of their beliefs and in even more danger because of their association with Harry. Hermione is in danger for all of those reasons and in even more danger because, on top of all that, she is muggle born. Ginny has her family to confide in and get support from. Hermione’s parents don’t even know what is going on. She hasn’t told them anything about Voldemort, the war, or the danger she is in. She only has Harry and Ron to confide in.

In spite of all this, Hermione is still the most mature of the group. Just because she is more mature, doesn’t mean that occasionally she won’t lose control and react immaturely. A person can only take so much before they snap no matter how mature they are. Again, there is no “sudden character change”. Hermione’s behavior and reactions are consistent with her behavior and reactions in the past. It is not her behavior that has changed. The situation changed.

random_musing
August 21st, 2005, 10:59 am
although i respectfully disagree with what you said Meesha and i think you stated your opinion in a mature manner, i just couldn't help but feel annoyed by the way hermione acted. Growing up doesn't always mean turning into what hermione turned into. I'm not one of those people who think that hermione is flawless, i like her flaws, her nagging harry about everything is a good example. But as of HBP I can safely say that i didn't feel any sort of special connection to hermione. I think that HBP brought out the worst out of her. Of all people i thought that Ron was more mature than Hermione some of the time and that is definately a first. To make a long rant short, Hermione wasn't the hermione i knew and loved in books 1-5.

Change isn't always good, and IMO, Hermione's Character Change was definately not a good thing.

meesha1971
August 21st, 2005, 11:35 am
although i respectfully disagree with what you said Meesha and i think you stated your opinion in a mature manner, i just couldn't help but feel annoyed by the way hermione acted. Growing up doesn't always mean turning into what hermione turned into. I'm not one of those people who think that hermione is flawless, i like her flaws, her nagging harry about everything is a good example. But as of HBP I can safely say that i didn't feel any sort of special connection to hermione. I think that HBP brought out the worst out of her. Of all people i thought that Ron was more mature than Hermione some of the time and that is definately a first. To make a long rant short, Hermione wasn't the hermione i knew and loved in books 1-5.

Change isn't always good, and IMO, Hermione's Character Change was definately not a good thing.


Thanks for the compliment. However, I don't see any change. Hermione acted and behaved exactly as she has in the past. She has been violent and cruel in the past. She has been insecure and gotten upset about her grades in the past. All of her behavior and actions in HBP are consistent with her behavior in the past. Please enlighten me as to what this big change in Hermione is. I simply don't see it.

LysGartis
August 21st, 2005, 12:09 pm
Well I think it was good to see Hermione change in this book. We could not expect her to behave like when she was 10 or 12. She is now 17, definately not a child and definately not an adult. This is confusing, sometimes pretty hard to find a place to fit and a consistent way to behave. Believe me, I live with a 17 and a 16 year old (my sisters) and they act both ike grown ups and then like babies in a minute time.

The true Hermione, her true personality has been there all the time: know it all, bossy, bookworm, loyal, brave, serious most of the time, responsable and dedicated. This is truly her. Time and maturity (or lack of maturity) don't change that.

But now, as a 17 year old and as a young woman in love, of course she had to change. She is now much more emotional now, she thinks more with her heart rather than with her head. This is good because it shows she is not just a bookworm, a brain. She has a heart, she has feelings... beautiful feelings of loyalty, friendship and love... but also rage, bitterness... It's not perfect but it's human.

A perfect Hermione, never mad, always a perfect girl would be very... annoying and unbelieveable

*My first post here, sorry for my bad english*

Deevo
August 21st, 2005, 12:30 pm
Thanks for the compliment. However, I don't see any change. Hermione acted and behaved exactly as she has in the past. She has been violent and cruel in the past. She has been insecure and gotten upset about her grades in the past. All of her behavior and actions in HBP are consistent with her behavior in the past. Please enlighten me as to what this big change in Hermione is. I simply don't see it.
Which is the crux of the matter, it's about perception and misunderstanding rather than what was there.

Primarily but not only because she played the role of information provider in the past books many readers may have overlooked her less appealing characteristics, her flaws, and from this have placed her on something of a pedestal. Others have also done so for other reasons, perhaps reading more noble motivations into some of her less than stellar actions that simply weren't present.

With the removal of her primary role in this book we get to see those flaws without the balancing influence of other motivations and therefore get to see them as they are, parts of her character, warts and all.

weluvtham00n
August 21st, 2005, 12:41 pm
To me... Yeah, I think Hermione has changed. But the most important thing is that she's still there with Harry and she's going to support him. I think that she's still pretty much the same.. I wouldnt have expected her to use the HBP's book, that's below her. Harry needed the help, he's inquisitive, but Hermione has such strong morals and principals -- look at the way she kept the time turner to herself all that time (just an example of inner strength, and loyalty to Prof McG).

To be honest, we really didn't see very much character development in this, apart from self confidence boosting in Ron. There was so much focus on Harry and Dumbledore's lessons, maybe that's what made the book feel so different. There was less personal stuff, it was all about voldemort. So basically what I'm saying is that I dont think we saw enough of Hermione to be able to judge a change in her character, we just saw enough to keep the Hermione//Ron love thing moving.

FaceofBoe
August 21st, 2005, 1:35 pm
To be honest, we really didn't see very much character development in this, apart from self confidence boosting in Ron. There was so much focus on Harry and Dumbledore's lessons, maybe that's what made the book feel so different. There was less personal stuff, it was all about voldemort.

I think that's fair enough. Character-development - particularly Harry's development - seems to happen in alternate books, for some reason. There was some development in PS, but not much in CoS; loads of development in PoA, not much in GoF; tons of development in OotP, but not much in HBP again. CoS, GoF and HBP are more focused on Voldemort, the people around him, and his backstory.

weluvtham00n
August 21st, 2005, 1:40 pm
I think that's fair enough. Character-development - particularly Harry's development - seems to happen in alternate books, for some reason. There was some development in PS, but not much in CoS; loads of development in PoA, not much in GoF; tons of development in OotP, but not much in HBP again. CoS, GoF and HBP are more focused on Voldemort, the people around him, and his backstory.

Good point, hadnt noticed that at all! predicting uber character development in book 7 then?... Actually I think there has to be. It's gona take a lot for everyone to get over the loss of DD, not just Harry.

meesha1971
August 21st, 2005, 2:14 pm
Which is the crux of the matter, it's about perception and misunderstanding rather than what was there.

Primarily but not only because she played the role of information provider in the past books many readers may have overlooked her less appealing characteristics, her flaws, and from this have placed her on something of a pedestal. Others have also done so for other reasons, perhaps reading more noble motivations into some of her less than stellar actions that simply weren't present.

With the removal of her primary role in this book we get to see those flaws without the balancing influence of other motivations and therefore get to see them as they are, parts of her character, warts and all.

That's pretty much the way I see it. Hermione's character is the same as it has always been but Dumbledore took over her role as being the information giver to Harry. Harry didn't need Hermione as much in HBP. That is really the only change in Hermione that I can see.

moonlight_13
August 21st, 2005, 2:45 pm
She LIKES RON. Wouldn't other people see a change in you if you did something just to annoy someone, or do something utterly uncharacteristic because of them?

ps. excuse me, all h/h shippers.

Potency
August 21st, 2005, 5:07 pm
Just dropping in here to say, I don't know how old the ages are of people who didn't like Hermione in book 6 and the people that do...but I do know that when I was a teenager, I felt like I was very mature and grounded. For real. I never understood people who wen through the 'typical teens'. Everyone used to comment on how grounded I seemed. Then when I got in my late teens and early 20s...that's when the emotional upheaval began.

So while it seemed all along that I was "mature" in fact, I had never gone through these growing pains until I was a bit older. Of course, this might not necessarily apply to everyone, but if there are people out there Hermione's age, a bit younger, or a bit older, who hasn't gone through this emotional upheaval yet, just you wait.;) Its a part of growing up, its not fun to go through, but you come out a better person for it. I think Hermione hasn't finished "growing up" yet. But in HBP, she has learned not to take Ron for granted, she has learned about forgiveness, learning that her emotions are a force to be reckoned with, and she is learning to be a woman growing from a girl. I definately think this was Jo Rowling intention. Obviously Jo knows what is like to grow up during these confusing years and has a pretty good hold on the Hermione character...not only b/c she is completely Jo's own creation, but because she is based somewhat on Jo herself.

Wimsey
August 21st, 2005, 7:35 pm
So while it seemed all along that I was "mature" in fact, I had never gone through these growing pains until I was a bit older. Of course, this might not necessarily apply to everyone, but if there are people out there Hermione's age, a bit younger, or a bit older, who hasn't gone through this emotional upheaval yet, just you wait.

You got that right. Whether you start at 14 or 24, you probably will go through the same things. The difference is that if you start at 14, then you usually are making smarter decisions at 24 than is the 24 year old starting at that age.

There is a funny (but crass) movie out now called "40-year old Virgin." One of the devices that it uses is that it does not matter when you begin, you still don't have a clue.


Obviously Jo knows what is like to grow up during these confusing years and has a pretty good hold on the Hermione character...not only b/c she is completely Jo's own creation, but because she is based somewhat on Jo herself.

One of the things that JKR said early on is that she wanted to use Hermione to show that plain, brainy girls (which is what JKR was, in her mind) have the same emotions and the same emotional upheavals as other girls. Too many people expected Hermione to be a cool super-woman. But why in the world would she be? If such women (or even just people) exist, then they are extremely rare to say the least.

lillybonds
August 21st, 2005, 8:59 pm
I think she changed, but it was something normal. I think she is the same Hermione as ever.

RitaSkeeter17
August 21st, 2005, 9:04 pm
I felt the only differences was her crying alot more, I still feel she is the same Hermione. Hermione had a tough 6th year with Won-Won and Lavender, and Ron wasn't talking to her through half of it. Hermione is growing up, she is changing. I feel Hermione was alot like she was in the first and fourth book.

AnnabellaRiddle
August 21st, 2005, 10:46 pm
I believe this is what we call puberty. ^_^ I think Hermione's character is more 3-D with the change.

Wimsey
August 21st, 2005, 11:16 pm
I felt the only differences was her crying alot more, I still feel she is the same Hermione.

She spends most of PoA crying, and for basically the same reason. Hermione clearly had a crush on Ron as far back as then. Ron's refusal to talk to her after Scabbers disappearance (coupled with her pride refusing to let her admit that maybe she should have kept her cat in line) deeply wounded Hermione. The difference was that she spent the time crying at Hagrid's hut, out of Harry's sight.

AurorSlayer
August 21st, 2005, 11:41 pm
I'm glad to see that most people here noticed that certain changes in Harry, Ron, AND Hermione were not them being OOC, but rather that their actions in HBP only added dimension to their characters as we watched them grow through each of the books. On an individual basis, I think some people had built up certain perseptions/anticipations about Hermione that they felt were dashed by HBP, but there is nothing JK can do about that. I guess some people will have to live with the fact that Hermione is really flawed not just in the sense of her character, but maybe in peoples' expectation of her as well.

random_musing
August 22nd, 2005, 12:11 am
She LIKES RON. Wouldn't other people see a change in you if you did something just to annoy someone, or do something utterly uncharacteristic because of them?

ps. excuse me, all h/h shippers.

no need for the excuse...after HBP and that interview we know that she likes ron :rolleyes:

But what i don't get is how, in the way you worded it, it seems perfectly ok. Sorry, maybe its just be personally, but i don't like big changes in characters like i saw with hermione. I'll repeat myself: change isn't always good and IMO i didn't like Hermione's change. It honestly has nothing to do with the fact that she likes ron. I'm not happy with it in the slightest but i understand that she likes him now, but going out with other guys to make them jealous? Sorry, i'll watch Degrassi and the O.C. for that, i don't need anymore high school girl sterotypes in my life. I understand that shes growing up, but if the way we see that has to be her shown through major jealousy...well, its just annoying IMHO :shrug:

meesha1971
August 22nd, 2005, 1:11 am
no need for the excuse...after HBP and that interview we know that she likes ron :rolleyes:

But what i don't get is how, in the way you worded it, it seems perfectly ok. Sorry, maybe its just be personally, but i don't like big changes in characters like i saw with hermione. I'll repeat myself: change isn't always good and IMO i didn't like Hermione's change. It honestly has nothing to do with the fact that she likes ron. I'm not happy with it in the slightest but i understand that she likes him now, but going out with other guys to make them jealous? Sorry, i'll watch Degrassi and the O.C. for that, i don't need anymore high school girl sterotypes in my life. I understand that shes growing up, but if the way we see that has to be her shown through major jealousy...well, its just annoying IMHO :shrug:


You keep saying that change isn't good but you have yet to say exactly what the change in Hermione's character is supposed to be. Her behavior and actions in HBP are consistent with her behavior and actions in the previous books. So what is this terrible change that you are talking about?

How is Hermione asking McLaggen to the Christmas party any different from her writing letters to Viktor in front of Ron? She knew how Ron would react. She could have written letters to Viktor when Ron wasn't around. So why write letters to Viktor in front of him knowing he is going to get angry about it?

Again, it is not commendable behavior but it is consistent with her behavior in previous books. I have yet to see anyone post any "change" in Hermione that is not consistent with her previous behavior.

random_musing
August 22nd, 2005, 3:48 am
You keep saying that change isn't good but you have yet to say exactly what the change in Hermione's character is supposed to be. Her behavior and actions in HBP are consistent with her behavior and actions in the previous books. So what is this terrible change that you are talking about?

How is Hermione asking McLaggen to the Christmas party any different from her writing letters to Viktor in front of Ron? She knew how Ron would react. She could have written letters to Viktor when Ron wasn't around. So why write letters to Viktor in front of him knowing he is going to get angry about it?


Well, the way you wrote that is assuming that i believe that Hermione knew about her feelings towards Ron and that gets into shipping and with all due respect i'm really trying to stay as far away from discussing shipping around here as possible unless i want to be murdered :scared:

The changes in hermione is that she used jealousy as an overpowering emotion for over half of her scenes in HBP. Confunding someone so that her crush can get on the quidditch team (even if he was a bit too pompous and annoying) was a major "erm...what was that hemione?" moment for me.
I also never saw hermione as the type to go out with someone to make someone else jealous. I'm sorry but I was a bit appalled that it seemed as though i was one of the only ones in this thread to find that really appalling. This brings in something else that bothered me. JKR said that she wanted to show that bookworms can have normal girl emotions. Well, I've seen that already in books 1-5 (girlish crush on a teacher she obviously had to chance with and tries to impress him, giving her best guy friend tips on girls, insulting the other best guy friend for his total lack of emotion involving girl's feelings, spending hours to look good for a ball, etc). How making her into a constantly jealous bird girl didn't really make me feel so connected to her.

I must say that i understand and see all the rebuttles to everything i just said: shes maturing, growing up, etc, but just in my opinion i really didn't like the way hermione's flaws were so magnified in this book. Meesha, i totally understand where you are coming from with your statements but i'm sorry but i still must respectively disagree with your reasoning...and i also dont' want to go in circles over and over again. :p Maybe i just am not old enough to understand yet, maybe next year when i'm going into 11th grade my opinion will change, maybe even next month, but for now I just didn't like hermione for most of the book, based on how different she was, IMO, from the other books and on gut feeling.

ahh i hope that made some sense even though you'll disagree. :blush:

SSJ_Jup81
August 22nd, 2005, 4:11 am
The changes in hermione is that she used jealousy as an overpowering emotion for over half of her scenes in HBP.Hermione's character is overly emotional anyway, we just hadn't seen her openly jealous before, since she'd had no true reason to show it. The object of her affections wasn't dating and making out with another girl where Hermione could witness it.Confunding someone so that her crush can get on the quidditch team (even if he was a bit too pompous and annoying) was a major "erm...what was that hemione?" moment for me.But it's been pointed out the reason why Hermione did that to begin with. It had nothing to do with whether or not she wanted Ron on the team, it was because the boy had insulted her two friends (Ron and Ginny). Unless I missed something in this book which states that Hermione is a seer who knew that making that kid miss one goal would get Ron on the team, I'd agree with you here. I also never saw hermione as the type to go out with someone to make someone else jealous. I'm sorry but I was a bit appalled that it seemed as though i was one of the only ones in this thread to find that really appalling.This is about the only thing I agree with. This is the only thing Hermione did in this book that literally did surprise me. I, too, never imagined her going with a guy to make Ron jeealous...then again, looking back at OotP and that letter to Viktor, she just may very well be capable of this. In book 5, she was writing out that letter to Viktor, JKR pointed that out a numerous amount of times, and then pointed out the length of the letter and its location (the floor, near Ron). It's like she wanted his attention. Then, after Ron noticed the letter, and asked who it was for, Hermione told him, and Ron clammed up and remained grumpy. IMO, looking at it from that angle, she wanted a reaction out of Ron, and knows that Ron is jealous over Viktor. If this was her intent, she succeeded partially.
This brings in something else that bothered me. JKR said that she wanted to show that bookworms can have normal girl emotions. Well, I've seen that already in books 1-5 (girlish crush on a teacher she obviously had to chance with and tries to impress him, giving her best guy friend tips on girls, insulting the other best guy friend for his total lack of emotion involving girl's feelings, spending hours to look good for a ball, etc). How making her into a constantly jealous bird girl didn't really make me feel so connected to her.But Hermione at some point, has shown jealousy before, or irritation, etc. I agree with Meesha and most of her points, to be honest. In GoF, she showed jealousy (one could call it), only wasn't completely open with it. It was more subtle. She had no real reason to react.

Ron, in the past, never had a girlfriend; he was still single, and there was no threat on Hermione's part. Then boom, just like in book 4 with Ron, it happened again, only this time, it was Hermione's turn to be openly obvioius. Ron had a girlfriend; he was no longer attainable. Hermione was feeling threatened and had never encountered this before, so she reacted in a jealous (a trait she has shown in previous books) and hysterical manner, horomones and feelings running wild, more than likely.Maybe i just am not old enough to understand yet, maybe next year when i'm going into 11th grade my opinion will change, maybe even next month, but for now I just didn't like hermione for most of the book, based on how different she was, IMO, from the other books and on gut feeling.Personally, I don't think age has much to do with it. I'm going on 24, and have never even been in a relationship and I can see where Meesha is coming from.

random_musing
August 22nd, 2005, 4:33 am
This is about the only thing I agree with. This is the only thing Hermione did in this book that literally did surprise me. I, too, never imagined her going with a guy to make Ron jeealous...then again, looking back at OotP and that letter to Viktor, she just may very well be capable of this. In book 5, she was writing out that letter to Viktor, JKR pointed that out a numerous amount of times, and then pointed out the length of the letter and its location (the floor, near Ron). It's like she wanted his attention. Then, after Ron noticed the letter, and asked who it was for, Hermione told him, and Ron clammed up and remained grumpy. IMO, looking at it from that angle, she wanted a reaction out of Ron, and knows that Ron is jealous over Viktor. If this was her intent, she succeeded partially.
well at least you half way agree with me on something ;)

I respect the rest of your comments but when it all comes down to it its just a matter of how i saw her character i suppose and my opinion of hermione's "change" won't be altered for a while i don't think. I understand where your points are coming from but i'm just gonna have to disagree *shrug* What can i say, i tend to be pretty set in my ways...aka stubborn :evil:

James_Potter_
August 22nd, 2005, 4:33 am
It did change a little but I mean it there was alot of stuff to think about. She has always been the one who was right and then Harry comes and tells here that he will murder or be murdered. And she has dealed with Fleur and the fact the Ron goes nuts whenever she is in the room. Plus Sirius has just died and she feels she can't mention that. So far she is handling her self quite well. Later Harry gets a new way of cheating in potions, or Hermiony considers it so. She is now being over looked by the teacher and Harry is getting more attention for his sneaky talent and "cheek" as Professer Slughorn calls it than her. By now she is kind of being weird but she, in my eye, tries to look for good things like the fact that Harry is under alot of stress so she does not nag on him more that she usually would. Sirius's death to the first week of term. I think here character change is very very minor cosidering what she is going through at the moment. Those are the main points I found. Please tell me if you find any more. If I offended that was not my intention
Sorry if this is hard to understand

meesha1971
August 22nd, 2005, 4:47 am
Well, the way you wrote that is assuming that i believe that Hermione knew about her feelings towards Ron and that gets into shipping and with all due respect i'm really trying to stay as far away from discussing shipping around here as possible unless i want to be murdered :scared:

Well, I wasn't exactly trying to get into shipping issues. Briefly delving into that, yes I think Hermione has liked Ron at least since POA if not before. There was no reason for her to write letters to Krum in front of Ron. She could have done that in private. Shipping issues aside, she knew that it would irritate Ron, yet she did it anyway.

The changes in hermione is that she used jealousy as an overpowering emotion for over half of her scenes in HBP. Confunding someone so that her crush can get on the quidditch team (even if he was a bit too pompous and annoying) was a major "erm...what was that hemione?" moment for me.

The only flaw in that theory is the fact that Hermione's reasons for confunding McLaggen could not have been to help Ron get on the team. McLaggen tried out first. Hermione had no way of knowing how Ron would do on his tryout. Causing McLaggen to miss one goal only did one thing. It meant that Ron had to make ALL of his goals to make the team. Her reason for confunding McLaggen was simply because she lost her temper and took it upon herself to deflate his ego. This is consistent with her behavior in the past. When Malfoy made fun of Hagrid, she slapped him and threatened him with her wand. When Rita wrote lies about Harry and then about her, she trapped her in an unbreakable jar and blackmailed her for a year. When McLaggen insulted her friends, she confunded him in an attempt to deflate his ego. Consistent behavior.

I also never saw hermione as the type to go out with someone to make someone else jealous. I'm sorry but I was a bit appalled that it seemed as though i was one of the only ones in this thread to find that really appalling. This brings in something else that bothered me. JKR said that she wanted to show that bookworms can have normal girl emotions. Well, I've seen that already in books 1-5 (girlish crush on a teacher she obviously had to chance with and tries to impress him, giving her best guy friend tips on girls, insulting the other best guy friend for his total lack of emotion involving girl's feelings, spending hours to look good for a ball, etc). How making her into a constantly jealous bird girl didn't really make me feel so connected to her.

I did. I knew that things between Ron and Hermione were going to reach this point. We've already seen that Ron is jealous of Krum. I knew that Ron was going to be involved with another girl before Hermione and that she would be jealous. I also knew that she would show her jealousy with anger. Hermione took a risk and made the first move with Ron and thought they were making progress. She didn't know about the argument with Ginny and that Ginny told Ron that Krum kissed her. All she knew was that he was suddenly angry with her and she didn't know why. When she saw him kissing Lavender in the common room it was an emotional slap in the face. She lost her temper. It was more than just jealousy. It was hurting Ron the way that he hurt her. She made a mistake and she paid for it. She didn't enjoy the Christmas part because she had to hide from McLaggen the whole time.

This is not out of character for Hermione. Hermione has reacted violently and cruelly in the past when she lost her temper. That's exactly what she did in HBP. She was hurt and angry and made mistakes.

I must say that i understand and see all the rebuttles to everything i just said: shes maturing, growing up, etc, but just in my opinion i really didn't like the way hermione's flaws were so magnified in this book. Meesha, i totally understand where you are coming from with your statements but i'm sorry but i still must respectively disagree with your reasoning...and i also dont' want to go in circles over and over again. :p Maybe i just am not old enough to understand yet, maybe next year when i'm going into 11th grade my opinion will change, maybe even next month, but for now I just didn't like hermione for most of the book, based on how different she was, IMO, from the other books and on gut feeling.

Hermione's flaws weren't magnified. There was nothing in the book to hide her flaws. In the past, Hermione has had to be the information giver. Her flaws were overlooked because of that role. In HBP, Dumbledore took over as the information giver. All of her actions in HBP can be correlated with her actions in the past. Hermione hasn't changed. The situation changed.

ahh i hope that made some sense even though you'll disagree. :blush:

You made plenty of sense even though I definitely disagree. I identify with Hermione. Honestly, I WAS Hermione in high school. That's one of the reasons I love her character so much. It is very easy for me to look at the situation Hermione is in and predict how she will react and I haven't been wrong about her yet.

random_musing
August 22nd, 2005, 5:27 am
well i think that when it comes down to it, many things are based on how you identify with the character. Its all a matter of how you see the character and you and JKR apparently see hermione in the same way. I didn't. Ho hum, i guess Ijust saw her character differently :shrug:

ETA Very OT: How i became a 4th year in only 21 days is really scary. I really need a hobby. Well school is starting soon so...

meesha1971
August 22nd, 2005, 8:07 am
well i think that when it comes down to it, many things are based on how you identify with the character. Its all a matter of how you see the character and you and JKR apparently see hermione in the same way. I didn't. Ho hum, i guess Ijust saw her character differently :shrug:

You are right. It is a matter of interpretation. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I spent too much time on the LT to even think I could. ;)

This topic just happens to be one of my pet peeves going back to before HBP was released. I get really tired of seeing Hermione painted as this omnipotent wonder woman with all her flaws glossed over or ignored. That just isn't who she is and it never was. Hermione has always had flaws. She has always made mistakes. She has always had a nasty temper. It just makes me love her character even more.

ETA Very OT: How i became a 4th year in only 21 days is really scary. I really need a hobby. Well school is starting soon so...

It is kind of scare how addicting these boards can be. I started posting just to kill time while waiting for the new book and I'm still here.

Wimsey
August 22nd, 2005, 9:18 am
Well, I wasn't exactly trying to get into shipping issues. Briefly delving into that, yes I think Hermione has liked Ron at least since POA if not before.

I first caught on to this while reading PoA. In retrospect, I think that it might go all the way back to P/SS!


There was no reason for her to write letters to Krum in front of Ron. She could have done that in private. Shipping issues aside, she knew that it would irritate Ron, yet she did it anyway.

Ah, but Hermione explains to Harry why she was doing that when she explains to Harry why Cho was going on about Cedric at the coffee shop. Hermione does not flat out say this, of course, but then one would not expect her to do so!



You made plenty of sense even though I definitely disagree. I identify with Hermione. Honestly, I WAS Hermione in high school. That's one of the reasons I love her character so much. It is very easy for me to look at the situation Hermione is in and predict how she will react and I haven't been wrong about her yet.

JKR was to a large degree, too, if we are to believe what she has written and said. Again, JKR wants people to see bright, plain girls as being (ultimately) girls, too. They are not superwomen. This is important to remember when evaluating what Hermione does on trivial things (e.g., Ron) as well as important ones (e.g., helping Harry find Horcruxes).


As with the other character development issues (e.g,. Snape, Ginny, etc.), people really should focus on what these characters will mean for the final plot and story. Now, one can express their frustration that Hermione was not the superwoman that they hoped, or that Hermione never had the crush on Harry that they had projected onto her. However, JKR really has carefully developed Hermione over 6 books, and she should be as better developed in our minds as every character except Harry (who's thoughts we read) and Ron (who is about equally well developed). There is a reason for this very brainy, very passionate, yet fairly insecure individual. Again, think Chekov's Rule: the guns shown must be fired. The question is, what sort of gun is Hermione?

random_musing
August 22nd, 2005, 9:30 am
:sigh: really,although it may seem like it at times, most of the people who didn't like hermione in HBP didnt' want her to be a "super woman" and never saw her as a "super woman".

Well at least I haven't. Thats all I'm gonna say. :shrug:

meesha1971
August 22nd, 2005, 12:04 pm
I first caught on to this while reading PoA. In retrospect, I think that it might go all the way back to P/SS!

I do too. I don't think she fell in love with him in PS/SS but I think that's when it started. She was 12 then. Ron's sacrificing himself in the chess game would have been very romantic. But it was COS that really made me see it. Ron was so protective of Hermione - standing up to Malfoy and trying to curse him with a broken wand. It was clear to me at that point that Ron and Hermione's relationship had a completely different dynamic.

Ah, but Hermione explains to Harry why she was doing that when she explains to Harry why Cho was going on about Cedric at the coffee shop. Hermione does not flat out say this, of course, but then one would not expect her to do so!

Exactly my point! Well, sort of. I don't think that Hermione was trying to make Ron jealous by writing the letter in front of him. I think it was a test. I think she knew (or at least figured it out by then) that Ron's behavior at the Yule Ball was caused by jealousy. When Ron first found out that she and Krum were writing each other, he showed jealousy. I think she wrote the letter in front of him to see how he would react.

I think Hermione was trying to sort out Ron's feelings throughout OOTP and writing the letter to Krum in front of him was part of that. Hermione is not the type to do anything without knowing all of the "facts" first. Unfortunately, she can't go to the library and research Ron's feelings like she does everything else.

JKR was to a large degree, too, if we are to believe what she has written and said. Again, JKR wants people to see bright, plain girls as being (ultimately) girls, too. They are not superwomen. This is important to remember when evaluating what Hermione does on trivial things (e.g., Ron) as well as important ones (e.g., helping Harry find Horcruxes).

Exactly. Hermione is as insecure as Ron is. She is not the "typical" pretty girl and she knows it. She is not even the "typical" girl. You aren't going to see her trying to curl her eyelashes in class. She has a deep seated fear of failure and a need to prove herself. She hides her insecurity behind her intelligence. She has always been emotional and has always had a nasty temper.

As with the other character development issues (e.g,. Snape, Ginny, etc.), people really should focus on what these characters will mean for the final plot and story. Now, one can express their frustration that Hermione was not the superwoman that they hoped, or that Hermione never had the crush on Harry that they had projected onto her. However, JKR really has carefully developed Hermione over 6 books, and she should be as better developed in our minds as every character except Harry (who's thoughts we read) and Ron (who is about equally well developed). There is a reason for this very brainy, very passionate, yet fairly insecure individual. Again, think Chekov's Rule: the guns shown must be fired. The question is, what sort of gun is Hermione?

I totally agree. Each character has been developed a certain way for a reason. Harry is the hero. Ron is his loyal friend who will stand by him no matter what. Hermione is the driving force behind them. She makes sure they know what they need to know and have a good plan before they go running off into danger.

SaraElizabeth
August 22nd, 2005, 1:10 pm
Originally Posted by meesha1971
I do too. I don't think she fell in love with him in PS/SS but I think that's when it started. She was 12 then. Ron's sacrificing himself in the chess game would have been very romantic. But it was COS that really made me see it. Ron was so protective of Hermione - standing up to Malfoy and trying to curse him with a broken wand. It was clear to me at that point that Ron and Hermione's relationship had a completely different dynamic.

I think Hermione had a crush on Ron right from PS/SS, but she only realised it in POA. Ron's crush I think began in COS and he only realised it in OOTP.

Exactly my point! Well, sort of. I don't think that Hermione was trying to make Ron jealous by writing the letter in front of him. I think it was a test. I think she knew (or at least figured it out by then) that Ron's behavior at the Yule Ball was caused by jealousy. When Ron first found out that she and Krum were writing each other, he showed jealousy. I think she wrote the letter in front of him to see how he would react.

I think Hermione was trying to sort out Ron's feelings throughout OOTP and writing the letter to Krum in front of him was part of that. Hermione is not the type to do anything without knowing all of the "facts" first. Unfortunately, she can't go to the library and research Ron's feelings like she does everything else.

Yes, I think that the main reason they danced around the issue for so long is because their insecurity caused them to be unsure whether the feelings were reciprocated. They seem to have gotten past that in HBP and I think now they know that the feelings are mutual.



Exactly. Hermione is as insecure as Ron is. She is not the "typical" pretty girl and she knows it. She is not even the "typical" girl. You aren't going to see her trying to curl her eyelashes in class. She has a deep seated fear of failure and a need to prove herself. She hides her insecurity behind her intelligence. She has always been emotional and has always had a nasty temper.

I totally agree. I think Hermione working so hard at school is her way of proving herself and I think being a muggle born, she probably feels more need to prove herself than the others. I also agree that she's always been emotional. When I see people saying that Hermione is good at controlling her emotions, I wonder if I've been reading the same book as they have. This is the girl who cried in the bathroom when Ron insulted her, cried when she visited Hagrid in POA while Ron and Harry weren't speaking to her, broke down in tears when Ron offered to help with Buckbeak's trial, lost her temper and slapped Malfoy, burst into tears and hugged both Ron and Harry after they made up with each other in GOF and had a shouting match in the common room with Ron after the Yule Ball. She has always been an extremely emotional character. Sure she's good at analysing and explaining other's emotions, but she's never been particularly good at dealing with her own emotions.

Red530
August 22nd, 2005, 1:13 pm
Yeah! I noticed it too!
Now, she's not acting as if she knows everything or she's the smartest. She seems more gentle now.

PotionA
August 22nd, 2005, 2:20 pm
Ok I really don't understand why it's so difficult for some people to accept Hermione's flaws. They've accepted Ron's and Harry's with ease but why not Hermione's? It's not like we haven't seen Hermione's jealous side before. GoF gave us a hint on that and HBP just sort of put a sharp light on it. She's an important character and it's vital that we see the more human side of her. Putting a Confundus Charm on McLaggen to get one of her best friends in the team is very Hermione-like IMO. She's broken rules before which in turn proves that she's a bit relaxed in doing so now, especially as it involved something that one of her best friends cared about. Her loyalty brings out the more rebellious side of her.

Hermione Snape
August 22nd, 2005, 2:59 pm
Notice it? How could I not notice it!

RIP Hermione the smart, clever know it all!

myndon
August 22nd, 2005, 3:14 pm
I really don't think this is going to last. Has anyone forgotten in the last book where we saw "angsty, moody, annoying" Harry? I really could not stand that side of him, but he got over it. I think Hermione will get over her petty, jealous, vindictive self pretty quickly--especially now that Ron isn't locking lips with Lavender. It's true though, everyone goes through those types of phases at that age...all it takes is something (or someone) to set them off.

Alci
August 22nd, 2005, 5:21 pm
RIP Hermione the smart, clever know it all!

Really?I saw the smart clever know it all; a smart clever know it all developing an increasingly nasty temper and an inability to apologise.

I get really tired of seeing Hermione painted as this omnipotent wonder woman with all her flaws glossed over or ignored. That just isn't who she is and it never was. Hermione has always had flaws. She has always made mistakes

The problem is that of consistency. You are entirely correct that she has always had flaws. However, the narration is very quick to pick up Harry or Ron for their flaws but generally indulges Hermione's actions. JKR and I'm sure a significant section of the female readers identified with her to the extent that they were, I think, very generous. I'm sure we can be certain that had Ron attacked Hermione rather than the other way round we would be listening to endless threads about locking him up in Askaban atm.

Personaly I spent a significant section of the book wanting Harry to stand up to her fits of temper and tell her to grow up and give her an earful over her attack on Ron. Sadly Harry has all the backbone of jelly with his friends.

janastasia
August 22nd, 2005, 5:22 pm
I still think this is the real hermione no one ever had to see before.
You have to remember she had no idea why he was arguing with her, she didn't have to hear what Ginny said about Krum

PotionA
August 22nd, 2005, 5:33 pm
I really don't think this is going to last. Has anyone forgotten in the last book where we saw "angsty, moody, annoying" Harry? I really could not stand that side of him, but he got over it. I think Hermione will get over her petty, jealous, vindictive self pretty quickly--especially now that Ron isn't locking lips with Lavender. It's true though, everyone goes through those types of phases at that age...all it takes is something (or someone) to set them off.

Petty?? Nah I wouldn't call her that. Hermione has always been the vindictive sort. She got back at Rita Skeeter real good if you ask me. Jealous, well, she's been that too. She got jealous of Phlegm in GoF when she kissed Ron and whenever Ron was mooning over her. Her jealousy and vengeful characteristic are parts of her personality. You can't exactly compare these traits with Harry's mood swings because Harry was being ignored by his friends, Dumbledore even Sirius and he had just witnessed a death of a schoolfriend which had sunk in real deep and *sigh* yes you can also blame it on the hormones.

Melindaleo
August 22nd, 2005, 5:45 pm
I don't think Hermione's character changed in HBP. I think that her flaws were highlighted more than in the past, however, and I was glad to see it. In reading posts and fanfiction, it seemed to me that a lot of people underplayed Hermione's character flaws, but over-emphasized Ron and Harry's. Book 4 really focused on Ron's flaws, Book 5 focused on Harry's, and now that Book 6 did Hermione's everyone is all up in arms. I'm really having trouble understanding why she's treated so differently.

GraveyardPoet
August 22nd, 2005, 7:28 pm
I think the change though subtle throughout the thread of the books is a believable one. Hermoine is growing up and the world of magic that she once held awe for has turned consistantly dark and perilous. Yes, and there is the entire episode with trying to crack through Ron's thick skull, but I also believe that the changing of Hermoine's character is deilberate by Rowling to place more of an emphasis on Ginny. Ginny didn't have much of a personality IMO until GOF. She and Hermoine are friends but almost the exact mold of characters, (with Hermoine a bit more studious, GInny...athletic). But to seperate them both they have to change at the same time AND Ginny has to become more dominant almost like DD HAD to die, for Harry to complete the Quest of vanquishing LV. Now, that al being said, with Ginny apparently returning to Hogwarts in Book 7, and Ron and Hermoine chasing LV instead, we shall all have to stay tuned for further character development with Ginny apparently on the sidelines

meesha1971
August 22nd, 2005, 7:54 pm
The problem is that of consistency. You are entirely correct that she has always had flaws. However, the narration is very quick to pick up Harry or Ron for their flaws but generally indulges Hermione's actions. JKR and I'm sure a significant section of the female readers identified with her to the extent that they were, I think, very generous. I'm sure we can be certain that had Ron attacked Hermione rather than the other way round we would be listening to endless threads about locking him up in Askaban atm.

Personaly I spent a significant section of the book wanting Harry to stand up to her fits of temper and tell her to grow up and give her an earful over her attack on Ron. Sadly Harry has all the backbone of jelly with his friends.

The thing is though, that Hermione's behavior IS consistent. She has been violent and cruel in the past. She slapped Malfoy and threatened him with her wand for making fun of Hagrid. She trapped Rita in beetle form in an unbreakable jar for weeks and then blackmailed her for a year because she printed exaggerated stories and untrue stories about Harry and her.

Hermione's flaws were never glossed over by JKR, IMO. Her flaws were glossed over or ignored by some fans of the series who wanted to see her character as something it wasn't. Hermione's behavior has never been any better or any worse than Harry's or Ron's. No matter what spin is put on it, it is never right to be violent. Harry and Ron have continually let Malfoy provoke them into violence. Hermione allowed Malfoy to provoke her into violence. Most of the time they at least try to rise above it but there are times when they let their control slip. It is not admirable behavior but it is normal behavior and it is consistent throughout the series for all of them.

Ron's behavior towards Hermione in GOF, as well as HBP, was inappropriate. He attacked her verbally in GOF and accused her of things because he was jealous. He did so publicly, in front of everyone at the ball. Hermione's behavior towards Ron in HBP was inappropriate. Neither of them behaved admirably but their behavior has been consistent.

As far as what would have happened if Ron had attacked Hermione instead of the other way around - If the situation were reversed and Ron had been the one to send canaries after Hermione, I would have had the same reaction and, yes, I am female. I thought the canaries was a fairly harmless way for Hermione to get her anger out compared to her actions in the past. Ron got a few cuts and scratches on his arms and hands but suffered no major damage or injury. She is very capable of doing alot worse. What she did wasn't right but it was consistent with her behavior in the past.

This thread isn't about whether or not what she did was right or wrong. It is about whether or not her behavior was consistent. Her behavior in HBP is completely consistent with her behavior in previous books.

random_musing
August 22nd, 2005, 11:48 pm
Ok I really don't understand why it's so difficult for some people to accept Hermione's flaws. They've accepted Ron's and Harry's with ease but why not Hermione's? It's not like we haven't seen Hermione's jealous side before. GoF gave us a hint on that and HBP just sort of put a sharp light on it. She's an important character and it's vital that we see the more human side of her. Putting a Confundus Charm on McLaggen to get one of her best friends in the team is very Hermione-like IMO. She's broken rules before which in turn proves that she's a bit relaxed in doing so now, especially as it involved something that one of her best friends cared about. Her loyalty brings out the more rebellious side of her.
Its not as though we've never seen her jealous. Its that it was to the extreme that was just plain annoying. Seriously, i swear i was watching Degrassi while reading that McLaggen scene. And shes broken rules before of course, but only if it was going to be a danger to someone she cares about or a last resort, then she'll break rules like its no tomorrow. But breaking rules to get someone on the quidditch team? :huh:

RIP Hermione the smart, clever know it all!
*prays*

meesha1971
August 23rd, 2005, 12:32 am
Its not as though we've never seen her jealous. Its that it was to the extreme that was just plain annoying. Seriously, i swear i was watching Degrassi while reading that McLaggen scene.

See, that's the thing. Hermione has never had to deal with this type of situation before. She showed a small amount of jealousy towards Fleur and Padma but neither of them were truly a threat. She was more annoyed with Ron's attitude than anything. The situation with Lavender was completely different. This was not Ron bragging and getting a kiss on the cheek. This was Ron accepting a date with her, getting angry with her for reasons unknown to her, and then snogging another girl in the middle of the common room for all to see. She reacted almost exactly as I thought she would.

One of the most argued debates on the extinct LT was whether or not Hermione was jealous of Cho and Harry kissing. One side said that Hermione speaking briskly and being vague and absent meant that she was jealous. The other side said those things meant that she wasn't really interested in the kiss but just being a good friend and giving Harry advice. I was on that side. I maintained that if Hermione had actually been jealous of Harry and Cho's kiss, she would have been furious and there would be nothing vague or absent about it. Hermione is not a passive person. She speaks her mind. If she doesn't like something, you know it. Her temper is enough to send Malfoy scampering away in fear.

And shes broken rules before of course, but only if it was going to be a danger to someone she cares about or a last resort, then she'll break rules like its no tomorrow. But breaking rules to get someone on the quidditch team? :huh:

So, keeping quiet about Harry having the Marauder's map and using it along with the invisibility cloak to go to Hogsmeade in POA when he was supposed to be staying at the castle because his life was in danger wasn't breaking the rules? I don't think so. Had they been caught, they would have all gotten in trouble unless Harry could "prove" that Ron and Hermione didn't know about it. She didn't break that rule to protect Harry. She did it so he wouldn't get in trouble. She did it in spite of the fact that she thought he was in danger because he and Ron asked her to.

What about what she did to Rita? She didn't just break rules there. She broke the law. She kidnapped a person, kept them trapped in a jar for weeks, and then blackmailed her for a year. How exactly was Rita threatening anyone's life or putting anyone in danger? Rita's crime was being a liar. Her lies were annoying and caused problems but they didn't put anyone in danger. The right thing to do would have been to report Rita as an unregistered animagus. Hermoine didn't do the right thing. She chose to get revenge in a cruel way. Rita deserved it, IMO but there were no noble reasons for Hermione's actions. She lost her temper and got revenge - plain and simple.

It was the same thing with McLaggen. He made her angry because he insulted her friends and she took it upon herself to get revenge by deflating his ego. She hit him where it hurts because of his own super-sized ego regarding his Quidditch abilities. Her actions didn't have anything to do with getting Ron on the team. They couldn't have because she had no way of knowing how Ron was going to do. If she had done it to get Ron on the team, she would have confunded McLaggen sooner and caused him to miss more than one goal. Causing him to miss only one goal didn't give Ron an advantage because Ron had to save all of his goals to make the team.

Mpol
August 23rd, 2005, 12:51 am
mate couldn't agree more! Im extatic to hear that so many people are really now loving this book as it should be! i know i should post this in the rate it section, but this topic is an example of people's changing views on the book. quite a few initially were dissappointed but with further reads, they now see how great a book it was and how it could really come into play once book 7 is done!

random_musing
August 23rd, 2005, 2:37 am
So, keeping quiet about Harry having the Marauder's map and using it along with the invisibility cloak to go to Hogsmeade in POA when he was supposed to be staying at the castle because his life was in danger wasn't breaking the rules? I don't think so. Had they been caught, they would have all gotten in trouble unless Harry could "prove" that Ron and Hermione didn't know about it. She didn't break that rule to protect Harry. She did it so he wouldn't get in trouble. She did it in spite of the fact that she thought he was in danger because he and Ron asked her to.

What about what she did to Rita? She didn't just break rules there. She broke the law. She kidnapped a person, kept them trapped in a jar for weeks, and then blackmailed her for a year. How exactly was Rita threatening anyone's life or putting anyone in danger? Rita's crime was being a liar. Her lies were annoying and caused problems but they didn't put anyone in danger. The right thing to do would have been to report Rita as an unregistered animagus. Hermoine didn't do the right thing. She chose to get revenge in a cruel way. Rita deserved it, IMO but there were no noble reasons for Hermione's actions. She lost her temper and got revenge - plain and simple.

It was the same thing with McLaggen. He made her angry because he insulted her friends and she took it upon herself to get revenge by deflating his ego. She hit him where it hurts because of his own super-sized ego regarding his Quidditch abilities. Her actions didn't have anything to do with getting Ron on the team. They couldn't have because she had no way of knowing how Ron was going to do. If she had done it to get Ron on the team, she would have confunded McLaggen sooner and caused him to miss more than one goal. Causing him to miss only one goal didn't give Ron an advantage because Ron had to save all of his goals to make the team.

ahhhh fair enough. Uncle uncle! You made good points and I agree with the last bits that you said.
But again, i'm still stubborn and the other things that she did just made me shake my head.

Hermione3000
August 23rd, 2005, 3:13 am
Ok, yes hermione has changed alittle... but thats normal. No one can go through school,boys,and your friends almost getting killed each year and not take a personality change. Hermione practically asked Ron to the Slughorn's party first in her own datey sort of way, I mean she could have made it alittle plainer but come on its hard to ask out a guy you like. Ron did say yes. They were really embarressed afterward... and then you come in and you see the gut who was suppose to go with you to the party with you making out with another girl. That can hurt. She did the unmature thing but so did Ron. For what? to prove his sister wrong, So come one give hermione some slack :eyebrows: she deserves it!

meesha1971
August 23rd, 2005, 3:53 am
ahhhh fair enough. Uncle uncle! You made good points and I agree with the last bits that you said.
But again, i'm still stubborn and the other things that she did just made me shake my head.

:rotfl:

Well, they made me shake my head too. Not because I didn't expect it but because I remember my teenage years all too well. Just because her behavior is consistent doesn't mean she won't regret it. Someday, in JKR's fictional world, Hermione Granger is going to look back and say "What was I thinking!?" I find myself doing that a lot, particularly as I watch my own kids traversing through the trials and pitfalls of being teenagers. Oh God, I have teenagers! I feel so old now. :sad:

eVaNeScEnCe
August 23rd, 2005, 6:17 am
you know, everyone's commenting on Hermione's drastic character change, but to be honest, I didn't really notice it much. To me, she still seemed like the overly protective, morally-strict, follow the rules by the book goody-two shoes she's always been. In fact, she kinda annoyed me a bit cause she still seems so exaggeratingly obsessed with her school work (the behavior during OWL's scene at the beginning) I'm glad Snape pointed out the fact that her smartness seems to be entirely rooted in her ability to "memorize" a book. :evil: I know I sound like I'm not a big Hermione fan, cause really, I like the girl, it's just that certain character traits about her annoy me a bit. As far as her behavior during HBP concerning Ron, well, I actually found that amusing. True, taking Mclaggen to the Christmas dance was a bit of a stretch, but I'm glad Rowling finally depicted her as a real girl with "raging" hormones, for a change.

Lobo237
August 23rd, 2005, 6:55 am
One other thing to consider with the whole canary situation. Hermione didn't sic them on Ron in the middle of the common room. She extracted herself from the situation and sought refuge in an empty classroom. Now she was obviously in a very vulnerable and emotional place. No doubt wondering what in the world had just happened, when oops, in walks the source of all her troubles. It's only then that she loses her cool.

hermionefanfr
August 23rd, 2005, 2:40 pm
I noticed the difference as well, but it doesn't bother me at all. Hermione has always been such a "perfect" girl, student, friend, it was almost getting boring to be around her. She's jealous of Lavender and i think she knows Ron's in love with her but he just can't face it. So, a bit of provocation never harmed anyone and inviting McLaggen or saying that she only dates really good quiditch players is just what Ron needed. On the other hand, she really wanted Ron on the team, so she confunded McLaggen. Give her a break, guys. Before she was too good, now not good enough! People do that kind of things at 17, and Hermione has been putting up with Ron's jealous behaviour for some time now (before and after the Yule ball, where he never thought of inviting her, and then being so mad at her because she went with Krum). He deserved what he got.

Well_Wisher
August 23rd, 2005, 3:56 pm
Hermione can't go out with Mclaggen too make ron jealous?

Although Ron can go out with lavender to upset hermione?!?!

Harry wasn't exactly nice in OOTP!

I'd be worried if hermione stayed the same through all the books...

Its about time she made a stand! Shes not a push over!

All the other characters have changed but when hermione changes...its wrong? Thats not fair, shes being affected by the war aswell and shes growing up aswell.

shadowdogs
August 23rd, 2005, 4:19 pm
Hermione has to be a little bad, doesn't she?

Not just in a clever, scheming, keeping-a-reporter-in-a-jar way, but in an irrational nut job way. (by the way, that was really vile!)

How else are she and Ron ever really going to see eye to eye? I mean, Ron had to grow up in this book, partly to be worthy of her; maybe she had to lose it a little bit, so she could identify with him.

juls_xfsm
August 23rd, 2005, 4:50 pm
I've noticed the change too. And to be honest the thing that bugged me wasn't the jealousy or the mood changes, but the fact that she seemed on the sidelines.
I suppose that being the female character that most people relate to (me included, lol), it felt weird that we honestly didn't get too see as much of her as we were used to in the previous books.

meesha1971
August 23rd, 2005, 5:14 pm
I've noticed the change too. And to be honest the thing that bugged me wasn't the jealousy or the mood changes, but the fact that she seemed on the sidelines.
I suppose that being the female character that most people relate to (me included, lol), it felt weird that we honestly didn't get too see as much of her as we were used to in the previous books.


I really think this is the crux of the whole issue. Prior to the release of HBP the lines were drawn between those who felt that Hermione was being built up to be the "heroine" and those who felt that Hermione was just a sidekick. The debates raged and evidence was given on both sides.

The fact is that Hermione was never intended to be the "heroine". There is no heroine in the HP series. JKR said that herself. She said that she always envisioned Harry as a boy. This is why we aren't reading about Harriet Potter.

Ron and Hermione are Harry's sidekicks - again, JKR said that herself. They have equal status. In the debates regarding this people who proposed Hermione was going to be the heroine, provided quotes from the books for all of the things that Hermione has done with Harry where Ron was not present. Unfortunately for them, that doesn't prove anything because there are also quotes providing evidence where Ron did things with Harry without Hermione. If you get picky and add up ever single time Harry does something with one and not the other, Ron actually comes out ahead. There have been more times where it was just Ron and Harry without Hermione.

In HBP, both Ron and Hermione took a backseat to Dumbledore. This was necessary for the story development. At some point, Dumbledore had to step in and take a personal interest in Harry and give him the information he needs. Ron and Hermione couldn't have helped Harry learn so much about Voldemort's past. The trio would never have stumbled across the information regarding Horcruxes on their own. Dumbledore had to give it to them. Once he stepped in to guide Harry, they stepped back.

Now that Harry has that information and Dumbledore is gone, things will return to the way they were before. Ron and Hermione will step back up to give Harry support and help him in his quest. Their status never really changed. This was simply something they couldn't help Harry with.

JKR said that books 6 and 7 would be like 2 halves of the same book. Book 6 focused on Harry's relationship with Dumbledore and getting necessary information to help him defeat Voldemort. Book 7 will return the focus to the relationship of the trio and the quest to find and destroy the Horcruxes leading to Harry's final confrontation with Voldemort. Hermione will once again be the "information giver".

Alci
August 23rd, 2005, 5:15 pm
I suppose that being the female character that most people relate to (me included, lol), it felt weird that we honestly didn't get too see as much of her as we were used to in the previous books.

Well as bk 6 was all about setting up book seven not alot really happens. With the story little more than DD, Harry and the flashbacks to early voldemort all the other characters were just padding.

Hermione will once again be the "information giver".

Well obviously JKR can fudge things but Hermione's ability has been based mostly on looking things up in books. I'm not sure you can find the horcruxs or any other Voldemort/DE infomation in such a manner.

Snapeinnocent
August 23rd, 2005, 7:10 pm
Could it possibly have something to do with what Slughorn said to her? (not quoted directly) Thats directly from the textbook and basically derailed her for basically just memorizing everything the books said?... this could have seriously impacted the way she thought about everything!

random_musing
August 23rd, 2005, 7:19 pm
I really think this is the crux of the whole issue. Prior to the release of HBP the lines were drawn between those who felt that Hermione was being built up to be the "heroine" and those who felt that Hermione was just a sidekick. The debates raged and evidence was given on both sides.

The fact is that Hermione was never intended to be the "heroine". There is no heroine in the HP series. JKR said that herself. She said that she always envisioned Harry as a boy. This is why we aren't reading about Harriet Potter.

Well even if hermione isn't the "heroine", I still see her as the main female in the series which, IMO, is a big spot to fill, especially when her best friends are both male. I always saw the "herione" as the main female in the series. I don't think that means that the book should now be "Harry Potter and Hermione Granger and ____________", but despite her being a "sidekick" she still shines as leading female. I think this is where people get the heroine thing from and put her at some sort of higher place than a normal sidekick...well at least I think of it that way.

Hinoema
August 23rd, 2005, 7:26 pm
Good point. Harry besting her in potions could have been a lesson for her- think outside the book. I think it would be great if the Sidekicks grow beyond the stage of being just a walking book and support system, respectively. Since this is real time, I'd love to see Ron be more of the information source and Hermione show more real time initiative and action. Not to trade places, but to balance their usual roles.

random_musing
August 23rd, 2005, 7:31 pm
Good point. Harry besting her in potions could have been a lesson for her- think outside the book. I think it would be great if the Sidekicks grow beyond the stage of being just a walking book and support system, respectively. Since this is real time, I'd love to see Ron be more of the information source and Hermione show more real time initiative and action. Not to trade places, but to balance their usual roles.
I agree. :agree: I'd like to see Ron be more helpful in book 7 than he usually is.

PotionA
August 23rd, 2005, 7:32 pm
But breaking rules to get someone on the quidditch team? :huh:

Why not? She likes Ron and she knows that getting him into the team would make him happy. Don't see anything wrong with that. The fact of the matter is that it makes her character more interesting. It gets quite broing to read about a character without any flaws and idiotic ones at that. Smart, teacher's pet Hermione Granger can be a little bad too so it would be nice if the Hermione worshippers cut her some slack.

Talenthief
August 23rd, 2005, 7:35 pm
Hermione needed an opportunity to grow up. She tried to hard to be mature in the previous books and I think she needed Book Six to be a jealous teenager.

Cheers,
Talen :D

random_musing
August 23rd, 2005, 7:50 pm
Why not? She likes Ron and she knows that getting him into the team would make him happy. Don't see anything wrong with that. The fact of the matter is that it makes her character more interesting. It gets quite broing to read about a character without any flaws and idiotic ones at that. Smart, teacher's pet Hermione Granger can be a little bad too so it would be nice if the Hermione worshippers cut her some slack.
IMO Hermione's flaws were visable since book 1 and i don't think that they were idiotic either :huh: I wouldn't consider myself a "hermione worshipper" but i still just didn't like her for most of HBP. Near the end i got a feel of her regular nagging self again and it was like I finally found Waldo after an exhausting page with dozens of red and white objects.

gottalovelife
August 23rd, 2005, 8:05 pm
I think that hermione acted extreamly out of character and sluty when she asked out McLaggen to get back at Ron. Come on mabey it is teenage jelously but this is not the way to deal with it. I'm a teenager and if I'm jelous(sp?) I don't ask out the people my friends hate thats just way below the belt.

The canaries were also a little bit over the top but not as bad as mclaggen. She sent enraged shreiking birds to rip at his flesh while blood oozed out of his open wounds and he screamed in agony. Come on thats a little bit sadistic no matter how bad she's feeling. he has scars for days afterward.

Harry should really have stepped in and helped Hermione out. When he saw how bad she was feeling he should at least tried to comfort her like she did for him in previous books. he really failed her as a friend

meesha1971
August 23rd, 2005, 8:35 pm
Well even if hermione isn't the "heroine", I still see her as the main female in the series which, IMO, is a big spot to fill, especially when her best friends are both male. I always saw the "herione" as the main female in the series. I don't think that means that the book should now be "Harry Potter and Hermione Granger and ____________", but despite her being a "sidekick" she still shines as leading female. I think this is where people get the heroine thing from and put her at some sort of higher place than a normal sidekick...well at least I think of it that way.


Exactly my point. Thanks. That's where the problem is. They are looking at the trio and seeing there is only one girl. She must be the leading female! But that isn't how it was supposed to be interpreted. Harry is the lead and Ron and Hermione are the support. There is no leading female. It was never supposed to be about gender. It was supposed to be about Harry and his two friends and the roles they play in his life. Ron and Hermione's status is equal in Harry's eyes. He doesn't consider either of them more important than the other. They both serve different functions but they have equal status.

juls_xfsm
August 23rd, 2005, 8:38 pm
I agree with random_musing, I didn't mean that I think that the series should be about "Harry AND Hermione". It's just that she is indeed the strongest female character in the series. Also, I don't think she is the heroine or that she has to play that part. I just meant that she's the one female character that we've seen grow thoughout the books, therefore easier to relate to.

Baroness
August 23rd, 2005, 8:42 pm
Harry should really have stepped in and helped Hermione out. When he saw how bad she was feeling he should at least tried to comfort her like she did for him in previous books. he really failed her as a friend

I thought that Harry spent time with Hermione during that whole mess. It even said something along the lines that Hermione needed him more than Ron did. Sorry, I don't have my book in front of me.

Granted, he should have just told her why Ron was so mad, though that might have made things worse.

xoxroraxox
August 23rd, 2005, 8:43 pm
Yes, I must admit i did notice a tremendous change in Hermiones character...though perhaps it may have been due to the fact that she is growing and changing....still, I can't pretend that i wasn't a little disappointed by it :(

random_musing
August 23rd, 2005, 8:48 pm
I think that hermione acted extreamly out of character and sluty when she asked out McLaggen to get back at Ron. Come on mabey it is teenage jelously but this is not the way to deal with it. I'm a teenager and if I'm jelous(sp?) I don't ask out the people my friends hate thats just way below the belt.

The canaries were also a little bit over the top but not as bad as mclaggen. She sent enraged shreiking birds to rip at his flesh while blood oozed out of his open wounds and he screamed in agony. Come on thats a little bit sadistic no matter how bad she's feeling. he has scars for days afterward.

Harry should really have stepped in and helped Hermione out. When he saw how bad she was feeling he should at least tried to comfort her like she did for him in previous books. he really failed her as a friend

i wouldn't say slutty, but her actions with McLaggen were over the top.

and, erm, the canaries thing was just a bit funny. Its like hermione was yelling "Prepare for my canaries of doom! *cue evil laugh*" It was a bit phyco but entertaining nonetheless. I shook my head and said "hermione, hermione, hermione. Birds aren't the key to Ron's heart...food is" :lol:

Harry could have been more helpful to his best friend emotionally, but hermione should have been more willing to hear him out about the whole death eater thing so... :shrug:

Hinoema
August 23rd, 2005, 8:52 pm
The canaries were also a little bit over the top but not as bad as mclaggen. She sent enraged shreiking birds to rip at his flesh while blood oozed out of his open wounds and he screamed in agony. Come on thats a little bit sadistic no matter how bad she's feeling. he has scars for days afterward.

That's pretty, er, dramatic. I guess I missed the screaming in agony part. Hmm...

The little flock of birds was speeding like a hail of fat golden bullets toward Ron, who yelped and covered his face with his hands, but the birds attacked, pecking and clawing at every bit of flesh they could reach.

"Gerrermoffme!" he yelled, but with one last look of vindictive fury, Hermione wrenched open the door and dissapeared through it. Harry thought he heard a sob before it slammed.

<snip>

Ron, whose hands and forearms still bore scratches and cuts from Hermione's bird attack, was taking a defensive and resentful tone.

-enraged shreiking birds to rip at his flesh

Nope, just speeding birds.

-while blood oozed out of his open wounds

Nope, no such description.

-he screamed in agony

No, he yelled "Gerremoffme!".

-he has scars for days afterward

No, he had scratches and cuts on his hands and forearms. Big difference from scars. He could've gotten worse (and probably has) from a Quiddich spill.

Gross exaggeration much?

meesha1971
August 23rd, 2005, 8:55 pm
I agree with random_musing, I didn't mean that I think that the series should be about "Harry AND Hermione". It's just that she is indeed the strongest female character in the series. Also, I don't think she is the heroine or that she has to play that part. I just meant that she's the one female character that we've seen grow thoughout the books, therefore easier to relate to.


I think there is a reason for that. JKR is up to something with Ginny. I just haven't figured out what it is yet. She created Ginny to be the ideal girl for Harry yet she has deliberately kept her in the background and prevented us from getting to know the character well. We know more facts about Ginny than Hermione because we see her both at Hogwarts and with the Weasleys whereas we only see Hermione at Hogwarts or with the Weasleys. We know nothing about Hermione's family life, her parents, her life in the muggle world, etc... However, we haven't gotten the chance to really get to know Ginny as an in-depth character.

I think that there's something about Ginny that JKR doesn't want us to figure out yet. To keep us from figuring it out, she deliberately kept Ginny in the background and is gradually bringing her forward. Even when Ginny and Harry start dating, she is still hidden from us. Something is up with that.

I relate more easily to Hermione too. Mostly because she reminds me of myself when I was in high school. But I never considered her the main female or the lead female. She was just one of Harry's friends. I don't think JKR intended for the trio to be broken down like that.

random_musing
August 23rd, 2005, 8:58 pm
Exactly my point. Thanks. That's where the problem is. They are looking at the trio and seeing there is only one girl. She must be the leading female! But that isn't how it was supposed to be interpreted. Harry is the lead and Ron and Hermione are the support. There is no leading female. It was never supposed to be about gender. It was supposed to be about Harry and his two friends and the roles they play in his life. Ron and Hermione's status is equal in Harry's eyes. He doesn't consider either of them more important than the other. They both serve different functions but they have equal status.
...i get what you're saying but i mean "technically" shes the main female of the series...ok now i'm being nitpicky.

That comment of yours made me realize how much i miss the whole trio dynamic :( i hope book 7 makes up for this majorly...

lilygirl
August 23rd, 2005, 9:14 pm
[QUOTE=random_musing
That comment of yours made me realize how much i miss the whole trio dynamic :( i hope book 7 makes up for this majorly...[/QUOTE]

I agree, and I think that it will because the ending sort of brought them back to square one with their abilities to help each other.

Hermione is not slutty. She is a teenage girl who liked a boy and went on a date with another boy to make him jealous. It happens often and doesn't make her "slutty", she didn't even do anything with him!! Yes, the canary thing was a bit over the top and I was a little suprised by it, but its the wizarding world and they deal with situations differently and Ron didn't really seem too hurt by it.

lexi13
August 23rd, 2005, 10:00 pm
She was just the same old hermione to me. Obviously shes going to be upset about the whole ron and lavender thing, what do you expect her to do just sit there? I cant blame her for wanting to get ron jealous or watever. The problem is that alot of people think shes too smart and mature to act like that. But afterall, she is just a girl, whos in love with a boy, who cant seem to get a clue :rotfl: Hopefully, things will work out for them in the 7 book :tu: But i agree..i do miss the trio togetherness..lol. Hopefully we'll see alot more of that in the next one. :p

meesha1971
August 23rd, 2005, 10:32 pm
...i get what you're saying but i mean "technically" shes the main female of the series...ok now i'm being nitpicky.

That comment of yours made me realize how much i miss the whole trio dynamic :( i hope book 7 makes up for this majorly...


Yes, you are being nitpicky. But I see your point. I just don't think JKR intended for it to be perceived that way. Gender is only an issue in regards to shipping. In the sense of the overall plot it is about Harry and his two friends. Both of them are important.

I missed the trio dynamic as well but I understand what she is doing. It was necessary for Ron and Hermione to take a backseat to Dumbledore temporarily. Ron and Hermione would not have been able to give Harry the information that Dumbledore did. Voldemort's personal history and information about the Horcruxes is not something they would find in the library. HBP is setting up the finale in book 7.

Besides, we know we have lots of trio goodness to look forward to. Think pleasant thoughts. Here's one - the trio versus the Dursleys! I can't wait to see that!

random_musing
August 23rd, 2005, 10:44 pm
Besides, we know we have lots of trio goodness to look forward to. Think pleasant thoughts. Here's one - the trio versus the Dursleys! I can't wait to see that!
yes i must say i'm pretty excited about that :D

PotionA
August 23rd, 2005, 11:02 pm
I missed the trio dynamic as well but I understand what she is doing. It was necessary for Ron and Hermione to take a backseat to Dumbledore temporarily. Ron and Hermione would not have been able to give Harry the information that Dumbledore did. Voldemort's personal history and information about the Horcruxes is not something they would find in the library. HBP is setting up the finale in book 7.

True true. A lotta people complain about the lack of Trio action in HBP but Harry needs to get a move on with his quest and not ponder over who to save next or to plan the next big adventure or whatever with Ron and Hermione. And the only person who can help him take one step further was Dumbledore. So Dumbledore kinda stole the Trio's thunder in HBP which, IMO, wasn't bad at all.

SaraElizabeth
August 24th, 2005, 1:44 am
True true. A lotta people complain about the lack of Trio action in HBP but Harry needs to get a move on with his quest and not ponder over who to save next or to plan the next big adventure or whatever with Ron and Hermione. And the only person who can help him take one step further was Dumbledore. So Dumbledore kinda stole the Trio's thunder in HBP which, IMO, wasn't bad at all.

I loved the Harry and Dumbledore theme in HBP. Dumbledore's always been an extremely important character, but he never got too much "screen time", so I was glad to see more of him. I think the main thing about the trio is that Harry's problems in HBP were sort of out of their reach. Dumbledore was the only one with enough wisdom/power/knowledge to help Harry understand all of it. Harry's not dealing with rescue missions anymore, he's dealing with finding bits of Voldemort's soul, hidden in different objects. It was not something that he could sit down and figure out with Ron and Hermione, like he has done in the past. As Harry's problems get bigger, he's obviously going to need all the help he can get. It wouldn't be realistic if JKR confined all the "mystery solving" and adventures to the trio. I also think that JKR is intentionally distancing Harry from Ron and Hermione. First to show Ron and Hermione as their own people and not just "Harry Potter's best friends" and also to have Harry figure things out for himself and rely on himself more, instead of always depending on Ron and Hermione. I don't know what anyone's complaining about though, the trio have never been stronger than they were at the end of the book.

cgold
August 24th, 2005, 2:23 am
Do you know I think it may just be me but I have never felt a sense of the Trio this strongly before. I don't know why but I really felt the bond very, very hard during this book. They seemed to be truly brothers and sister in HBP. I think it was them spending the summer together that was just so wonderful. Both guys jumping when Hermione go thumped....When they waited for exam results together was such a sweet moment because they even had intelocking arms...awwww...Hermione playing Quidditch :wow:...after the infamous kiss when they were discussing tattoos and then the final and most magical scene of support and togetherness at the end. I felt a very powerful sense of deep friendship like I hadn't felt before. It was just mundane like how true friends are. Not, I'm saving you from a troll, I'm helping you with Tri-wizard, I'm fighting in the DoM...it was just a real and true friendship like ordinary people and it felt deep. Could just be me.

I also felt the individual friendships stronger in this book. I have never seen Harry this close to Hermione. I was beginning to wonder if he didn't truly see her as her own person with feelings, etc. He really became a good friend to her in this book. He considered her feelings. They had fun together in the library (without Ron, which is a first that we've seen). He actually went to comfort her when R/H had the falling out. What a difference this was from PoA.

Well, Ron and Harry were always obviously close so no more examples are really necessary.

I know they went through the Lav Lav Won Won period but I have never felt them to be more like true family than in this book. That's just my opinion. I also feel that while we need to move on from the H/Hr stuff so I probably shouldn't bring this up, but if Hermione had not shown such open jealousy and caring for Ron I think this book would have been the strongest H/Hr because their friendship had never seemed deeper to me and that's what was usually base for their shipping arguments.

Cheers :tu: .

Augrey
August 24th, 2005, 2:38 am
I also think that JKR is intentionally distancing Harry from Ron and Hermione. First to show Ron and Hermione as their own people and not just "Harry Potter's best friends" and also to have Harry figure things out for himself and rely on himself more, instead of always depending on Ron and Hermione. Also, he may be subconsciously pulling away somewhat to protect them. That makes a good deal of sense to me, personally. I wouldn't want to put my best friends in danger when I've already indirectly (in his mind, at least) been the cause of at least three deaths, would you?

I seem to be one of the few who are able to understand Hermione's behaviour, or perhaps one of the few who can accept it. Change, especially with teens, doesn't always happen slowly and smoothly (I can't say how often or anything, my personal experience ends at me). For many girls (people?) it's leaps and bounds. We could be witnessing one of Hermione's "leaps", or maybe "bounds." I can't tell the difference. Her whole mode of thought is changing, her priorities are shifting at an alarming rate. It can be even more disturbing than it sounds, especially in the middle of a world crisis :sigh:

She's could also be realizing that the world is changing, and that rules will be broken by others, whether she follows them or not. Following rules rigidly would be a definite disadvantage.

Of course, this is all speculation, and probably has been said before. So... yeah.


I don't know what anyone's complaining about though, the trio have never been stronger than they were at the end of the book.
They're stronger, but in different ways. It's rather hard to touch on how exactly, but if anyone would like to take a stab...

SaraElizabeth
August 24th, 2005, 3:54 am
Do you know I think it may just be me but I have never felt a sense of the Trio this strongly before. I don't know why but I really felt the bond very, very hard during this book. They seemed to be truly brothers and sister in HBP. I think it was them spending the summer together that was just so wonderful. Both guys jumping when Hermione go thumped....When they waited for exam results together was such a sweet moment because they even had intelocking arms...awwww...Hermione playing Quidditch :wow:...after the infamous kiss when they were discussing tattoos and then the final and most magical scene of support and togetherness at the end. I felt a very powerful sense of deep friendship like I hadn't felt before. It was just mundane like how true friends are. Not, I'm saving you from a troll, I'm helping you with Tri-wizard, I'm fighting in the DoM...it was just a real and true friendship like ordinary people and it felt deep. Could just be me.

It's not just you. Athough, they might not have had an adventure together and Harry is starting to do more things on his own, I think their friendship was stronger than ever. I also like that Harry worried about them and their problems for a change (it's usually almost always the other way around).


I seem to be one of the few who are able to understand Hermione's behaviour, or perhaps one of the few who can accept it. Change, especially with teens, doesn't always happen slowly and smoothly (I can't say how often or anything, my personal experience ends at me). For many girls (people?) it's leaps and bounds. We could be witnessing one of Hermione's "leaps", or maybe "bounds." I can't tell the difference. Her whole mode of thought is changing, her priorities are shifting at an alarming rate. It can be even more disturbing than it sounds, especially in the middle of a world crisis :sigh:.

Well, my personal experience is that teenagers tend to change rapidly and the change is almost never gradual or slow. I think for teenagers life tends to seem very complicated and again from my personal experience, teenagers feel a lot of pressure, whether it be school or parents or future plans or whatever. But to be honest, I didn't see any drastic change in Hermione. Her behavior is consistent with previous books. The only thing that was different was that her feelings for Ron were far more obvious because she was so jealous of Lavender. The jealousy has always been there though. She scowled whenever Fluer payed any attention to him and snapped at him when he was talking to Padma. This jealousy was minor because neither of these girls were a real threat.

There is one good change in Hermione that has been occuring over the course of the series and not just in HBP and that is that she has lightened up a bit. When we were first introduced to her she was extremely rigid about the rules and wouldn't even dream of breaking them no matter what. I think years of hanging out with Harry and Ron has changed that rigidity a bit and she seems slightly more...I don't know...fun. Compared to the other characters, she's still very uptight, but she's come a long way since the days when she considered expulsion to be worse than death.

They're stronger, but in different ways. It's rather hard to touch on how exactly, but if anyone would like to take a stab

Hmm.... I don't know...... they seem to be more determined now.

the_real_LV
August 24th, 2005, 3:56 am
Yeah, in the 6th book Hermione is more annoying than she already is. I never liked her character to tell you the truth. It's great that is very intelligent and all but her nagging drives me insane. I was like shut up already! Yay for Ginny when she told her off about the quidditch thing.

Anyway, she's a growing girl. She does seem more confident though. People do change.

meesha1971
August 24th, 2005, 4:20 am
Do you know I think it may just be me but I have never felt a sense of the Trio this strongly before. I don't know why but I really felt the bond very, very hard during this book. They seemed to be truly brothers and sister in HBP. I think it was them spending the summer together that was just so wonderful. Both guys jumping when Hermione go thumped....When they waited for exam results together was such a sweet moment because they even had intelocking arms...awwww...Hermione playing Quidditch :wow:...after the infamous kiss when they were discussing tattoos and then the final and most magical scene of support and togetherness at the end. I felt a very powerful sense of deep friendship like I hadn't felt before. It was just mundane like how true friends are. Not, I'm saving you from a troll, I'm helping you with Tri-wizard, I'm fighting in the DoM...it was just a real and true friendship like ordinary people and it felt deep. Could just be me.

You're right. We didn't get the usual "trio goes off on an adventure together" but the friendship between them is stronger than ever. They were very close at the beginning - rocky in the middle - but even closer at the end. I just loved the end when Ron announced that he and Hermione were going to be with him at the Dursleys, Godric's Hollow, etc... At the end, you can really see that they are just Harry's friends anymore. They are Harry's family.

I also felt the individual friendships stronger in this book. I have never seen Harry this close to Hermione. I was beginning to wonder if he didn't truly see her as her own person with feelings, etc. He really became a good friend to her in this book. He considered her feelings. They had fun together in the library (without Ron, which is a first that we've seen). He actually went to comfort her when R/H had the falling out. What a difference this was from PoA.

I noticed that too. Part of that is the change in Harry. I was soooo glad to see the end of moody, irritable Harry from OOTP. I liked Harry much better in HBP. He is much more mature now. It was nice to see Harry offering support and comfort to his friends as opposed to them supporting and comforting him all the time.

Well, Ron and Harry were always obviously close so no more examples are really necessary.

That's true. But there is one HUGE difference. Ron seems to have completely gotten over his jealousy of Harry now that he has had a "girlfriend". Instead of being bitter about all the attention Harry was getting from those girls, he was laughing about it. I think Ron and Harry both grew up a lot.

I know they went through the Lav Lav Won Won period but I have never felt them to be more like true family than in this book. That's just my opinion. I also feel that while we need to move on from the H/Hr stuff so I probably shouldn't bring this up, but if Hermione had not shown such open jealousy and caring for Ron I think this book would have been the strongest H/Hr because their friendship had never seemed deeper to me and that's what was usually base for their shipping arguments.

Cheers :tu: .

The whole "Won Won" bit was annoying and nauseating but I think it actually made their friendship stronger, particularly on Harry's part. This is the first time we have truly seen him making an effort to be there for his friends. Sure, he has saved their lives and tried to protect them but now we're seeing him offer emotional support to Hermione and finding ways to help Ron with his confidence. It is usually Hermione that has to offer the emotional support to Harry and Ron trying to cheer Harry up. This time they needed Harry to give those things to them.

I wouldn't say that I felt anything romantic with Harry and Hermione. Their friendship is a lot stronger now because Harry is now giving as well as receiving but it is still very much a brother/sister relationship. But you are right about one thing. If JKR hadn't made it pointedly clear that Hermione loves Ron, this might have replaced OOTP as the H/Hr "bible".

It's not just you. Athough, they might not have had an adventure together and Harry is starting to do more things on his own, I think their friendship was stronger than ever. I also like that Harry worried about them and their problems for a change (it's usually almost always the other way around).

Well, my personal experience is that teenagers tend to change rapidly and the change is almost never gradual or slow. I think for teenagers life tends to seem very complicated and again from my personal experience, teenagers feel a lot of pressure, whether it be school or parents or future plans or whatever. But to be honest, I didn't see any drastic change in Hermione. Her behavior is consistent with previous books. The only thing that was different was that her feelings for Ron were far more obvious because she was so jealous of Lavender. The jealousy has always been there though. She scowled whenever Fluer payed any attention to him and snapped at him when he was talking to Padma. This jealousy was minor because neither of these girls were a real threat.

There is one good change in Hermione that has been occuring over the course of the series and not just in HBP and that is that she has lightened up a bit. When we were first introduced to her she was extremely rigid about the rules and wouldn't even dream of breaking them no matter what. I think years of hanging out with Harry and Ron has changed that rigidity a bit and she seems slightly more...I don't know...fun. Compared to the other characters, she's still very uptight, but she's come a long way since the days when she considered expulsion to be worse than death.

You know, this is starting to get a little scary. I think you are channeling my thoughts! :rotfl:

Scatterbrain
August 24th, 2005, 4:36 am
Hermione had no way to know how her actions would effect Ron's tryout. If she had truly been doing it for Ron, she would have caused McLaggen to miss more than one goal. All that accomplished was deflating McLaggen's ego some and, unfortunately, not enough.

Just gotta explain this Quiddich point again. Hermione's not stupid, she can't start throwing confundus charms around every time McLaggen tried to save a shot. But this is all still ridiculous this opinion that because Hermione could not know how ROn would do then she would not sabotage McLaggen's try-out, even if it was just one save. It's very simple. McLaggen would have got 5 out of 5. Hermione stopped him from doing that. Ron's task is then easier. Even though Hermione doesn't understand Quidditch very well she's clever enough to work that out.

If it was simply about getting back at McLaggen why not confund him at the start? Cos he may have missed the saves anyway and Ron would be alright. It was getting desperate by the end though. Ron would have a much more difficult task ahead of him if McLaggen had saved them all so Hermione confunded him. No, she couldn't be sure he'd make 5 saves. At least if he did he'd actually beat McLaggen though, thanks to Hermione.

There's still also the obvious fact that getting back at McLaggen is directly linked to making him mess up the tryouts so that he wouldn't be keeper. If it was not going to be any help to Ron than it would be completely inadequate as any kind of revenge. It would be inconsequential. It would only deflate McLaggen's ego significantly by losing to Ron. Fact is the consequence was the hope that Ron would beat McLaggen. Whether you believe that was simply revenge against McLaggen for what he was saying or more to do with Hermione's love for Ron doesn't really matter.

This was certainly a book where Hermione's flaws were highlighted. I'd agree with anyone who says they were always there though. Hermione's never been any less flawed than Ron or Harry. People seem to have put her on a pedestal that she doesn't deserve but once you realise she can be just as immature as the other two it's more understandable.

SaraElizabeth
August 24th, 2005, 4:51 am
I wouldn't say that I felt anything romantic with Harry and Hermione. Their friendship is a lot stronger now because Harry is now giving as well as receiving but it is still very much a brother/sister relationship. But you are right about one thing. If JKR hadn't made it pointedly clear that Hermione loves Ron, this might have replaced OOTP as the H/Hr "bible".

Wait a minute, I thought POA was the "H/Hr bible", shows how much I know. I'm relatively new to the world of "shipping", can't say that it hasn't scared me a bit lol.

You know, this is starting to get a little scary. I think you are channeling my thoughts!

Heehee, I always knew I was psychic!! Now I have proof!!

meesha1971
August 24th, 2005, 5:30 am
Just gotta explain this Quiddich point again. Hermione's not stupid, she can't start throwing confundus charms around every time McLaggen tried to save a shot. But this is all still ridiculous this opinion that because Hermione could not know how ROn would do then she would not sabotage McLaggen's try-out, even if it was just one save. It's very simple. McLaggen would have got 5 out of 5. Hermione stopped him from doing that. Ron's task is then easier. Even though Hermione doesn't understand Quidditch very well she's clever enough to work that out.

If it was simply about getting back at McLaggen why not confund him at the start? Cos he may have missed the saves anyway and Ron would be alright. It was getting desperate by the end though. Ron would have a much more difficult task ahead of him if McLaggen had saved them all so Hermione confunded him. No, she couldn't be sure he'd make 5 saves. At least if he did he'd actually beat McLaggen though, thanks to Hermione.

I don't agree. Hermione knows Ron well enough to know that it doesn't take much to shatter his confidence. The fact is that McLaggen only missed saving one goal. That was not a bad tryout. It was good. It didn't make Ron's tryout easier, it made it harder. He had to save all 5 of his goals to make the team. For Ron, that was not a confidence booster. Harry was very worried when McLaggen only missed one goal and very relieved that Ron saved all of his. It could have easily gone the other way. If Hermione had been trying to boost Ron's confidence, she would have confunded McLaggen sooner and made him miss more than one goal.

I think Hermione waited to see if he really was as good as he claimed. Not all braggarts are. I think she was angry and hoping he was just a braggart like Lockhart but realized that he actually was good and made him miss that last save hoping to deflate his ego a little bit. I don't play a lot of sports myself but I have friends and relatives who do and, on the average, missing one out of five is not bad. How much she knows about Quidditch doesn't matter - it is how well she knows Ron. Harry and Ron knew that McLaggen's tryout was good. In order for Ron to beat him, Ron had to be perfect. That put pressure on Ron and he doesn't always deal well with pressure. Hermione knows that.

There's still also the obvious fact that getting back at McLaggen is directly linked to making him mess up the tryouts so that he wouldn't be keeper. If it was not going to be any help to Ron than it would be completely inadequate as any kind of revenge. It would be inconsequential. It would only deflate McLaggen's ego significantly by losing to Ron. Fact is the consequence was the hope that Ron would beat McLaggen. Whether you believe that was simply revenge against McLaggen for what he was saying or more to do with Hermione's love for Ron doesn't really matter.

Actually, the fact that he missed a goal was deflating to his ego. McLaggen strutted around praising himself - going on about how good he was, etc... He was angry because he missed that goal because it went against his own claims of being so great. I don't think she was sitting there thinking "Oh goodness, how can I help Ron make the team?" I think she was sitting there thinking "That arrogant prat! How dare he say such things about Ron and Ginny! He thinks he's so perfect. I'll show him!" or something like that. Either way, her behavior wasn't commendable but I don't think her goal was to get Ron on the team.

This was certainly a book where Hermione's flaws were highlighted. I'd agree with anyone who says they were always there though. Hermione's never been any less flawed than Ron or Harry. People seem to have put her on a pedestal that she doesn't deserve but once you realise she can be just as immature as the other two it's more understandable.

I don't think Hermione's flaws were highlighted in HBP any more than they were highlighted in POA or GOF. I agree with you that her flaws have always been there. In some situations, they are highlighted and in others they are not because she has noble reasons.

Wait a minute, I thought POA was the "H/Hr bible", shows how much I know. I'm relatively new to the world of "shipping", can't say that it hasn't scared me a bit lol.

Most of the debates I participated primarily used OOTP as "proof" for H/Hr. POA was used too but it was mostly OOTP, particularly Hermione's advice to Harry regarding Cho.

Heehee, I always knew I was psychic!! Now I have proof!!

Well, one of us is! Every thread I post in I see a similar post by you. :eyebrows:

lindaluna
August 24th, 2005, 5:43 am
I thought Hermione changed, and not for the better, in this book, but it was building in OOP when she didn't agree with Sirius' judgment.

Jealous of Harry

This was OK, Ron had a book where he was jealous, and why not Hermione jealous - particularly over a scholastic competition?

Jealous of Ron/Lavender

I didn't mind her going to a ball with someone else - but she already did that with KRUM. To me, this was just ... redundant ... and not a grown up woman thing to to, like I expect of Hermione.

Indulgent toward Ron

This was ridiculous. The "boys just don't get it" theme.
If she's that tolerant:

(a) she's turned into Mrs. Weasley, Ron's mother.

(b) what could she possibly see in that moron Ron - at least before he was protective toward her, and showed some insight into her character flaws.

(c) why did she hex the birds on him?

Confundus Charm on McLaggen

Definitely cheating, for something as irrelevant as sports, I didn't like it and expected better of her.

Aragog's Funeral

Well, she never met Aragog...

I want Hermione to grow up and be all woman, not to be all housewife!!!

Maybe Ron will croak in Book 7 and she'll marry Krum after all.

Hinoema
August 24th, 2005, 6:00 am
lindaluna, no offense, but if you're just her to bash, I don't have time for it. We're having a conversation about what's really in the books, thanks. (BTW, 'housewife' is not an insult. My mother stayed home and raised us and I thank her for it continually.)

I agree with everyone else- her flaws were only apparent becuase this was the very first book where the Saint!Hermione crowd couldn't twist any flaw of hers into a noble sacrifice or similar for Harry. The readers who don't like her character by and large feel that way because they can't gloss over her behavior any more.

random_musing
August 24th, 2005, 6:25 am
Yeah, in the 6th book Hermione is more annoying than she already is. I never liked her character to tell you the truth. It's great that is very intelligent and all but her nagging drives me insane. I was like shut up already!
her nagging shows that she cares, and i'd want a friend who cares despite them nagging me to death.

Yay for Ginny when she told her off about the quidditch thing.
Too bad i wasn't there to give her a slap upside the head :evil:

Wait a minute, I thought POA was the "H/Hr bible", shows how much I know. I'm relatively new to the world of "shipping", can't say that it hasn't scared me a bit lol.

no, meesha is right (despite the sarcam and snark :evil: ). OotP was like the H/Hr 'bible', PoA was like a little book of hymns, and HBP was a giant, out of nowhere coffee stain that left harmonians thinking "Where the heck did that come from?"...wow, never thought i'd be making bible references around here. :huh:

meesha1971
August 24th, 2005, 6:44 am
no, meesha is right (despite the sarcam and snark :evil: ). OotP was like the H/Hr 'bible', PoA was like a little book of hymns, and HBP was a giant, out of nowhere coffee stain that left harmonians thinking "Where the heck did that come from?"...wow, never thought i'd be making bible references around here. :huh:

If you say I'm snarky does that mean I get to use the "D" word? :evil: I'm just kidding. Please don't take offense.

I never really understood why so many Harmonians believed OOTP was so positive for H/Hr myself. If anything, it showed exactly why Harry and Hermione were not compatible romantically.

Seriously though, I would suggest (politely of course) re-reading the series with the knowledge that the couples were meant to be R/Hr and H/G. Personally, I never saw much evidence for H/G. Now that I know she intended for it to be H/G all along I'm re-reading the books with that in mind and I'm catching all sorts of things I missed the first time around (and the second and third and so on ;)) I'm also catching a lot of things that I missed about Ginny in general because I didn't realize she was going to be so important later on.

SaraElizabeth
August 24th, 2005, 7:12 am
Originally Posted by meesha1971
Most of the debates I participated primarily used OOTP as "proof" for H/Hr. POA was used too but it was mostly OOTP, particularly Hermione's advice to Harry regarding Cho.

Oh yeah ok, I remember that. Hermione was allegedly jealous of Cho and that's why she was vague and business like, well something to that effect anyway.

Well, one of us is! Every thread I post in I see a similar post by you. :eyebrows:

Great minds think alike! :D

I thought Hermione changed, and not for the better, in this book, but it was building in OOP when she didn't agree with Sirius' judgment.

Jealous of Harry

This was OK, Ron had a book where he was jealous, and why not Hermione jealous - particularly over a scholastic competition?

Jealous of Ron/Lavender

I didn't mind her going to a ball with someone else - but she already did that with KRUM. To me, this was just ... redundant ... and not a grown up woman thing to to, like I expect of Hermione.

Indulgent toward Ron

This was ridiculous. The "boys just don't get it" theme.
If she's that tolerant:

(a) she's turned into Mrs. Weasley, Ron's mother.

(b) what could she possibly see in that moron Ron - at least before he was protective toward her, and showed some insight into her character flaws.

(c) why did she hex the birds on him?

Confundus Charm on McLaggen

Definitely cheating, for something as irrelevant as sports, I didn't like it and expected better of her.

Aragog's Funeral

Well, she never met Aragog...

I want Hermione to grow up and be all woman, not to be all housewife!!!

Maybe Ron will croak in Book 7 and she'll marry Krum after all.

Um....wow....I'm not too sure what to say to this, I've been on these forums long enough to know that people rarely change their minds, so I won't try and change yours. I have to say just one thing though. You say that "To me, this was just ... redundant ... and not a grown up woman thing to to, like I expect of Hermione." There's just one problem there, Hermione is NOT a grown up woman, she is a 17 year old girl. No matter how mature she is at times, she is still a girl, not a woman. Ugh! I sound like a Britney Spears song, don't I?

Originally Posted by random_musing
no, meesha is right (despite the sarcam and snark ).

lol Awww, come on you're not offended by a bit of snark, surely? But seriously, I'm sure meesha didn't mean to offend.

PotionA
August 24th, 2005, 8:19 am
I never really understood why so many Harmonians believed OoTP was so positive for H/Hr myself. If anything, it showed exactly why Harry and Hermione were not compatible romantically.

Yeah I don't get that either. But then I've debated countless of times until I started having gray hair on the various "H/Hr moments" in OoTP and no one's every come with anything solid. I think OoTP portrayed only the good two shoes side of Hermione and that's why a lotta people are surprised by some of her actions in HBP.

And lindaluna? The next time you bash out a character, please make sure your reasons for such contempt isn't clouded by something as "what Hermione could possibly see in that moron Ron." It's really quite pointless bringing a thing like that up now.

random_musing
August 24th, 2005, 8:28 am
If you say I'm snarky does that mean I get to use the "D" word? :evil: I'm just kidding. Please don't take offense.
:lol: i'm not offended at all, as long as you don't really use the "D" word its all good :tu:

I never really understood why so many Harmonians believed OOTP was so positive for H/Hr myself. If anything, it showed exactly why Harry and Hermione were not compatible romantically.
We are so misunderstood...that sounds stupid but I really think we are. *dramatic pose*

Seriously though, I would suggest (politely of course) re-reading the series with the knowledge that the couples were meant to be R/Hr and H/G. Personally, I never saw much evidence for H/G. Now that I know she intended for it to be H/G all along I'm re-reading the books with that in mind and I'm catching all sorts of things I missed the first time around (and the second and third and so on ;)) I'm also catching a lot of things that I missed about Ginny in general because I didn't realize she was going to be so important later on.

If I come across rude saying the following then sorry but I just had to let this out. *cracks fingers and starts to type*

I've read the books a bunch of times, even after reading HBP with r/hr and h/g in mind and I proudly say that i still saw potential for Harry and Hermione.
Re-read? Been there, done that. Changed my opinion? No. I saw the "tension" between Hermione and Ron, i even thought that Ron may have liked her a little, but i also saw it as one sided. Believe me, I've tried to twist things and think of it as R/Hr and it just doesn't work. I don't see it, I don't like it, and frankly I don't think I ever will :shrug:

H/G is another story ENTIRELY. I really did not see this coming at all. I thought that Ginny was over her 5 year crush on harry and I was quite proud of her too. But then HBP came and...well, you know what happened.;)

I tried looking at GoF in the "mindset" of R/Hr and i just couldn't stop frowning and thinking "wow, i really don't like this." Almost all my HP friends are R/Hr shippers and they've tried to convince me as well, but it really won't work. My heart, pre and post HBP, is with Harry/Hermione, despite the lack of "tension". I read symbolism (which JKR stepped all over in HBP :td: ), I read his mouth dropping, I read her constant care for him, I read his immediate calming feeling when she said Voldemort, I read that Krum and Cho, even RON , feeling threatened by the two together, I read her kissing him on the cheek in GoF and the fact that it was written like some sort of milestone, I read Hermione's reaction when she thought he was prefect, and I read that they had potential. HBP ruined it all, and although i will never like it, I realize that my ship will go nowhere in canon. But i'll always be a Harry/Hermione shipper. I was told by JKR to "read between the lines" and I did and I saw potential for H/Hr even more...yet she dropped "anvil sized clues" :huh:

Again, i've re-read, but I don't want to be told, especially by the author, how to read a book. How boring would it be if everyone read everything the same way (ok, maybe you lot wouldn't have to deal with annoying harmonians but...)? I read the words on the page, and I'm not one to think "hmm, maybe after reading OotP 5 times I really read everything wrong. Oh well, i'll think the way the majority wants me to think". Believe it or not, I started reading HP not having a ship at all, i even finished OotP without a ship, but after re-reading thats when i saw the potential, i didnt' go into each book thinking 'Harry/Hermione'. This is all a bit odd for a person who JUST started reading HP in late March/early April of this year (all because of the PoA movie actually...) and i became hooked to the characters, the plot, and after a few reads, loved the idea of H/Hr.

I've re-read all the R/Hr and H/G shipping scenes and I have still felt nothing.

I've accepted that now Heron is definately going to be cannon in Book 7, and I think Chocolate is too. Maybe months from now i'll change my mind, but I strongly doubt it. But really, who knows? I've done what you recommended before and, hey, for experiance I'll do it again, but i'm not promising anything. I'm pretty set in my ways for the moment. :agree:

Woah, this was MUCH too long. I may get a lot of mess for writing all this but i hope i wrote it politely. Its not very eloquent like i've seen other harmonians write, but this is just something i've had to get out...my fingers are tired now :p I hope this doesn't come off as ship bashing :scared: and if so i apologize in advance for that. I know that most everyone around here will disagree but i ask you not to debate me on this. Its just what I read, and if its blasphemy to read something differently, then i don't know what to do :shrug:


Maybe Ron will croak in Book 7 and she'll marry Krum after all.
I really hope Ron, nor anyone else in the trio dies...but her and krum were quite cute :blush:

meesha1971
August 24th, 2005, 9:40 am
:lol: i'm not offended at all, as long as you don't really use the "D" word its all good :tu:

Believe me, I avoid that word like the plague these days. I prefer to say highly creative and imaginative. :eyebrows:

We are so misunderstood...that sounds stupid but I really think we are. *dramatic pose*

I partly understand the idealism. Harry and Hermione strike me as a boring romance but I understand some of the reasons people ship it. I just don't see it in canon.

If I come across rude saying the following then sorry but I just had to let this out. *cracks fingers and starts to type*

You have never been rude or offended me in any way. I hope I didn't offend you.

I've read the books a bunch of times, even after reading HBP with r/hr and h/g in mind and I proudly say that i still saw potential for Harry and Hermione.
Re-read? Been there, done that. Changed my opinion? No. I saw the "tension" between Hermione and Ron, i even thought that Ron may have liked her a little, but i also saw it as one sided. Believe me, I've tried to twist things and think of it as R/Hr and it just doesn't work. I don't see it, I don't like it, and frankly I don't think I ever will :shrug:

I'm glad you at least tried. Not all shippers are willing to do that. I will say that in PS/SS, it could have gone either way. She was friends with both of them and the potential existed. However, after COS, it was clear (to me) that she liked Ron in a different way than she liked Harry.

My suggestion was meant to be polite as possible and not to be insulting. I speak from personal experience because there were things that I missed in the books - not just about shipping either - that I only picked up when the next book came out and I went back and re-read.

H/G is another story ENTIRELY. I really did not see this coming at all. I thought that Ginny was over her 5 year crush on harry and I was quite proud of her too. But then HBP came and...well, you know what happened.;)

I said that right up until I read HBP. I thought they would be a good couple but I just didn't see Harry returning her feelings. Harry didn't show romantic interest in anyone other than Cho as far as I could tell.

On re-reading however, I noticed little things that I missed before. Like the fact that Harry watched Ginny on the platform as the train was leaving in PS/SS until he couldn't see her anymore. The number of times he noticed Ginny or described something she was doing that just didn't have anything to do with the story. JKR hid it well and I'm dying to know why but she did hide it. You really have to look for those clues. I missed all of them - except for the chocolate scene. That did give me a little hope for them but it wasn't enough for me to say absolutely that they would be a couple..

I tried looking at GoF in the "mindset" of R/Hr and i just couldn't stop frowning and thinking "wow, i really don't like this." Almost all my HP friends are R/Hr shippers and they've tried to convince me as well, but it really won't work. My heart, pre and post HBP, is with Harry/Hermione, despite the lack of "tension". I read symbolism (which JKR stepped all over in HBP :td: ), I read his mouth dropping, I read her constant care for him, I read his immediate calming feeling when she said Voldemort, I read that Krum and Cho, even RON , feeling threatened by the two together, I read her kissing him on the cheek in GoF and the fact that it was written like some sort of milestone, I read Hermione's reaction when she thought he was prefect, and I read that they had potential. HBP ruined it all, and although i will never like it, I realize that my ship will go nowhere in canon. But i'll always be a Harry/Hermione shipper. I was told by JKR to "read between the lines" and I did and I saw potential for H/Hr even more...yet she dropped "anvil sized clues" :huh:

All of those things tell me that Hermione cares for Harry in a sisterly way. She worries about him and cares about him but there isn't anything romantic between them. No fluttery feelings, no jealousy on either of their parts, they both laughed at the idea of them being a couple - they treat each other very much like brother and sister. Look at the reaction to her change in appearance. Harry was shocked - stunned that Hermione could look like that. Ron wasn't. He walked right by her and didn't give her a second look. He didn't gape at her open mouthed in shock. That's significant. She was already pretty to him. He just didn't realize it until she already had a date.

I don't recall Ron ever feeling threatened that Harry and Hermione were romantically involved - I do remember him getting upset about how she would know what a good kiss was but I don't think that had anything to do with Harry. I think he was thinking about her and Krum. Cho was never truly jealous of Hermione. She used Hermione as a scapegoat to cover up the fact that she was using Harry to try and get him to tell her about Cedric. Krum bought into Rita Skeeter's lies and didn't appear to be that worried because he was completely satisfied when Harry said they were just friends. In fact, nobody who actually knew them (ie the students from their own house) believed any of the garbage that Rita Skeeter wrote about them. Ironically, when Harry asked Lavender if she would go to the ball with Ron she suggested that Ron take Hermione.

Hermione kissing Harry at the end of GOF was significant because Harry had absolutely no reaction to it other than to note she had never done it before. It was a friendly kiss goodbye. There was a big difference when she kissed Ron and wished him luck in OOTP. 1 - she only kissed Ron and didn't kiss Harry and 2 - Ron had a major reaction to it.

Her reaction to Ron getting the prefect badge was embarrassment because she stuck her foot in her mouth and inadvertantly insulted him and didn't know how to take it back without revealing her feelings for him, particularly in front of the twins who were already teasing him mercilessly. Another significant moment, Harry was obviously upset about it and she didn't offer him one single word of comfort whereas she tried to make up for insulting Ron by defending him to the twins.

Again, i've re-read, but I don't want to be told, especially by the author, how to read a book. How boring would it be if everyone read everything the same way (ok, maybe you lot wouldn't have to deal with annoying harmonians but...)? I read the words on the page, and I'm not one to think "hmm, maybe after reading OotP 5 times I really read everything wrong. Oh well, i'll think the way the majority wants me to think". Believe it or not, I started reading HP not having a ship at all, i even finished OotP without a ship, but after re-reading thats when i saw the potential, i didnt' go into each book thinking 'Harry/Hermione'. This is all a bit odd for a person who JUST started reading HP in late March/early April of this year (all because of the PoA movie actually...) and i became hooked to the characters, the plot, and after a few reads, loved the idea of H/Hr.

Well, if anyone has the right to say things were misinterpreted, it is the author. She wrote it and she knows what she meant. She does have the right to say "No, that isn't what I meant. You should reread." Me, on the other hand, I can make a friendly suggestion and hope and pray you aren't offended but I don't have the right to say that you should do it. That was not my intention and I hope it didn't come across that way.

When it comes right down to it, with any book, the author only has one interpretation in mind. The author knows what that is. JKR wanted us to read the books and see that Ron and Hermione were going to be a couple. She was shocked and surprised that some readers thought it would be Harry and Hermione because that was never what she intended. People might read the books and come up with other interpretations but there is only one correct interpretation and that is the one intended by the author.

I've re-read all the R/Hr and H/G shipping scenes and I have still felt nothing.

I've accepted that now Heron is definately going to be cannon in Book 7, and I think Chocolate is too. Maybe months from now i'll change my mind, but I strongly doubt it. But really, who knows? I've done what you recommended before and, hey, for experiance I'll do it again, but i'm not promising anything. I'm pretty set in my ways for the moment. :agree:

It's good to have an open mind. Prior to HBP, I re-read the books trying to see Harry and Hermione but I just didn't see it. They are too much like brother and sister. They are completely incompatible romantically, IMO.

With Ron and Hermione, it is more than just the tension between them. There is also the fact that Ron worries about Hermione - not just saving her life but about the little things. He notices when she's working to hard, not eating, etc... and tries to get her to relax and have fun and tries to get her to eat, etc... He notices things that Harry doesn't - like when she had her teeth fixed. He stands up for her and defends her against Malfoy and Snape - to a greater degree than Harry does. He spewed slugs for her. He even risked getting detention from Snape standing up for her. Hermione has stronger reactions to Ron than she does to Harry, particularly when they show ignorance of girls. With Harry she is patient and gives him advice - like an older sister - but with Ron, she is impatient and sharp with him. She is frustrated because he hasn't made a move yet and she wants him to.

Woah, this was MUCH too long. I may get a lot of mess for writing all this but i hope i wrote it politely. Its not very eloquent like i've seen other harmonians write, but this is just something i've had to get out...my fingers are tired now :p I hope this doesn't come off as ship bashing :scared: and if so i apologize in advance for that. I know that most everyone around here will disagree but i ask you not to debate me on this. Its just what I read, and if its blasphemy to read something differently, then i don't know what to do :shrug:

You were very polite. I hope I have been equally as polite. I'm really not trying to change your mind - I gave up on changing any Harmonian's mind a LONG time ago. ;) I'm just presenting my point of view on it.

Tom926
August 24th, 2005, 9:49 am
Yeah, for a good chunk of the book I thought she was channeling Harry from OofP--so angry and moody and dismissive. Belated growing pains perhaps. I don't think she's under the imperious curse--for one thing, she didn't do anything that awful as Madame Rosmerta passing along a cursed necklace and a poisoned bottle of mead. But even her sense of humor, such as there was of it, was more to the edge of sarcastic and spiteful than it ever was before. Maybe she's annoyed at JKR for making her wait yet another book for her ship to sail...

random_musing
August 24th, 2005, 10:11 am
Well, if anyone has the right to say things were misinterpreted, it is the author. She wrote it and she knows what she meant. She does have the right to say "No, that isn't what I meant. You should reread." Me, on the other hand, I can make a friendly suggestion and hope and pray you aren't offended but I don't have the right to say that you should do it. That was not my intention and I hope it didn't come across that way.

Well yes, if JKR says that something was misinterpreted then it was misinterpreted. I understand that, but i mean, i re-read and nothing changes really :shrug: No you didn't come anywhere close to the extent that i've seen others. But some people are babying harmonians like we can't read or something, just because we saw something that they didn't see. Thats kinda what i was trying to say

With the rest of the stuff you said...you and JKR had the same interpretation but I didn't and I just don't see it the way you (or JKR) saw it. In the end its all based on how ya read the book...and i apparently read it "wrong". I just have to agree to disagree on how we saw those scenes :agree:

cgold
August 24th, 2005, 11:09 am
I've read the books a bunch of times, even after reading HBP with r/hr and h/g in mind and I proudly say that i still saw potential for Harry and Hermione.
Re-read? Been there, done that. Changed my opinion? No. I saw the "tension" between Hermione and Ron, i even thought that Ron may have liked her a little, but i also saw it as one sided. Believe me, I've tried to twist things and think of it as R/Hr and it just doesn't work. I don't see it, I don't like it, and frankly I don't think I ever will :shrug:
I am trying to change your mind but I won't get my hopes up :sigh: . How do you explain Ron going from totally hero-worshipping Krum to almost the point of hatred (he dismembered the Krum toy)? That sounds like he liked her more than a little and is actually an anvil sized clue. Also, when Fleur kissed Ron and Hermione looked simply furious and when she kissed him unnecessarily for good luck before the Quidditch match. I don't remember the arguments from the love thread days but I want to know how do you explain these things away as not being very big hints. I just want to know from your specific point of view.

H/G is another story ENTIRELY. I really did not see this coming at all. I thought that Ginny was over her 5 year crush on harry and I was quite proud of her too. But then HBP came and...well, you know what happened.;)

Well I saw H/G coming clearly but I didn't used to argue it on the love thread because I didn't have a lot of support from the books. It was more a thing of why was Ginny there? You know? She was just this extra girl in the book whose crush storyline should have finished with CoS once that plot was over but it persisted for absolutely no reason. Also, Harry started to notice her a lot more and when he noticed "the fire reflecting in her eyes" in OotP, I was like "whoa" is Harry crushing on her here. I mean that description is incredibly romantic. It bears no purpose. He also had the habit of catching her eye with a shared joke. This was just too much for me to not think that Ginny had "future love interest" stamped all over her even though Harry had not given any overt clue and the thing for me was, unlike Hermione, there was actually a chance for Harry to get jealous of Ginny because he didn't hang around her much and know her life inside out like he does Hermione. With Hermione all the chances of him changing his mind and moving from platonic to romantic were just gone. He had an article writing them up as being together, no response or questioning his feelings. He saw her at the ball, he only thought she looked unusual (pretty), again no thought about how he had never felt like this before. I mean to me the compliment wasn't even that great because the other girls got a "very pretty". If ever there was a time to to feel a "fluttering" that he didn't understand, it should have been at the Yule ball. He had both Krum and Cho attack him about her and he thought the idea ludicrous both times. He even thought she was dead at one point and nothing. Many can argue that his reactions were stronger when Ginny was taken into the chamber (the worse he had ever felt at that point) and I definitely did not see it stronger than when Sirius was taken through the veil or the boggart impersonated a dead Ron. That was one of the reasons I thought there was 99.9999% sure that Harry Hermione couldn't happen. I know JK is ingenious but what could she possibly have written that the normal reader (no insult here but most persons did not see H/Hr so they would be the majority) would believe that he felt romantic affection for her after all this time. I couldn't think of anything, but with Ginny there was a chance because he didn't have the opportunity to feel jealous. Being told that someone you think of as a kid sister has a boyfriend and seeing her full on snogging someone are 2 very different things. One has the opportunity to really shake you up out of the "she's a kid sister" stupor.

I tried looking at GoF in the "mindset" of R/Hr and i just couldn't stop frowning and thinking "wow, i really don't like this." Almost all my HP friends are R/Hr shippers and they've tried to convince me as well, but it really won't work. My heart, pre and post HBP, is with Harry/Hermione, despite the lack of "tension". I read symbolism (which JKR stepped all over in HBP :td: ), I read his mouth dropping, I read her constant care for him, I read his immediate calming feeling when she said Voldemort, I read that Krum and Cho, even RON , feeling threatened by the two together, I read her kissing him on the cheek in GoF and the fact that it was written like some sort of milestone, I read Hermione's reaction when she thought he was prefect, and I read that they had potential. HBP ruined it all, and although i will never like it, I realize that my ship will go nowhere in canon. But i'll always be a Harry/Hermione shipper. I was told by JKR to "read between the lines" and I did and I saw potential for H/Hr even more...yet she dropped "anvil sized clues" :huh:
Well as I said before there were many clues in GoF that R/H was going to happen, in my opinion, and really confirmed to me the inkling I had gotten from PoA. The anvil sized clues was Ron dismembering the Krum figure and Hermione looking furious anytime Fleur or Padma paid attention to Ron. These were huge, how do you explain them away?
The thing with H/Hr is that while there may have been symbolism (I didn't see any) and caring, these are all the behaviours of a friend. A lot of people seem to think that just because R/H bicker that's why I saw R/H coming. No. I saw it coming because of the extra care Ron gave to Hermione and how extra emotional they reacted when it pertained to issues affecting each other. Without these things, R/H is just another set of bickering friends just like how H/H are just friends. It's the added emotional anxiety with the bickering that changes it from just friends to something more. H/H are a wonderful couple but without the extra emotion they cannot be anything more than friends just like R/H wouldn't be anything more without it, in my opinion, no matter how strong the bond is. There has to be that added tension for it to be romantic or you're just really, really close friends. It's like I cannot imagine 2 guys (unless that's your thing of course) reacting the way Ron and Hermione do but I can totally get 2 guys acting the way Harry and Hermione do and that's the difference in my head. One can be explained away as friendship and the other cannot.

Again, i've re-read, but I don't want to be told, especially by the author, how to read a book. How boring would it be if everyone read everything the same way (ok, maybe you lot wouldn't have to deal with annoying harmonians but...)? I read the words on the page, and I'm not one to think "hmm, maybe after reading OotP 5 times I really read everything wrong. Oh well, i'll think the way the majority wants me to think". Believe it or not, I started reading HP not having a ship at all, i even finished OotP without a ship, but after re-reading thats when i saw the potential, i didnt' go into each book thinking 'Harry/Hermione'. This is all a bit odd for a person who JUST started reading HP in late March/early April of this year (all because of the PoA movie actually...) and i became hooked to the characters, the plot, and after a few reads, loved the idea of H/Hr. Loving the idea of H/H is fine because this kind of friendship romance may be your thing. It's just that JK did write anvil sized clues for the other romances.

I've re-read all the R/Hr and H/G shipping scenes and I have still felt nothing.
As I said before, it could be that this just isn't your thing and that of course is 100% fine.

I've accepted that now Heron is definately going to be cannon in Book 7, and I think Chocolate is too. Maybe months from now i'll change my mind, but I strongly doubt it. But really, who knows? I've done what you recommended before and, hey, for experiance I'll do it again, but i'm not promising anything. I'm pretty set in my ways for the moment. :agree:
Well, as you get older you may change your mind. H/H would have been a nice pair if JK wrote it so there's no reason for you to not continue shipping it in fanfiction. R/H and H/G are certainly not my favourite pairing even though I love them. I won't talk about my canon pair here because it's slash but I absolutely love that pair to the death and only read those fanfictions. To be honest, I never read an R/H or H/G fanfiction before because I didn't want those authors to spoil the book for me and gladly they didn't. I read H/H but I found them too unrealistic and boring (just me). Ron always had to be an idiot who did very strange things. He couldn't just remain their friends for some reason and this always annoyed me. I've become positively obsessed with H/G fanfiction for some reason ever since HBP came out. If anyone know any good ones (not novel length) they can OWL me. I loved them in canon :blush: .

Woah, this was MUCH too long. I may get a lot of mess for writing all this but i hope i wrote it politely. Its not very eloquent like i've seen other harmonians write, but this is just something i've had to get out...my fingers are tired now :p I hope this doesn't come off as ship bashing :scared: and if so i apologize in advance for that. I know that most everyone around here will disagree but i ask you not to debate me on this. Its just what I read, and if its blasphemy to read something differently, then i don't know what to do :shrug:
Yeah, I don't know how I ended up writing so much because I didn't plan on saying anything really especially since you don't want to debate but sometimes I can't stop typing. I'm very longwinded at times. I totally understand your liking H/H if that's what floats your boat. As I said before even though I like R/H and H/G another couple in the series is actually my cup of tea. I really want to know how you explained away the hints I mentioned though. Just your point of view.

I also want to say I'm not trying to insult in anyway and any perceived insult is probably just writing style. I tend to be a little sarcastic sometimes.

Er....also to stay on thread because I'm way off topic, I don't think Hermione's character changed just her circumstances and...er... the points above proved it? :angel:

Cheers. :tu:

FaceofBoe
August 24th, 2005, 2:47 pm
. He also had the habit of catching her eye with a shared joke.

You know, I'd completely forgotten about those moments. Looking back on it now, that must have been intentional foreshadowing to the way Harry and Ginny share a similar sense of humour, and are able to bounce jokes off each other at ease, as we see in HBP.

I recently re-read all the books, and one thing that really stood out about Hermione is that she likes to be in control of a situation. If a situation starts getting out of control, she struggles to handle it. Look at her reaction to the Devil's Snare in Book I:

'Devil's Snare, Devil's Snare ... What did Professor Sprout say? It likes the dark and the damp -'
'So light a fire!' Harry choked.
'Yes - of course - but there's no wood!' Hermione cried, wringing her hands.
'HAVE YOU GONE MAD?' Ron bellowed. 'ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?'

If there's something she can't do, or she can't know, she gets frustrated and angry about it. She likes to have total control over a situation, and she always has. Perhaps this is a result of her deep insecurities and feelings if inadequacy - it pushes her to want to be the best of everything, and part of that involves having everything under control. If something happens that shocks her, or is outside the box (Luna's flights of fancy), she gets frustrated. This is what happens with Ron. She got annoyed in GoF when Ron was after Fleur, or when he was flirting with Padme, but she knew ultimately that neither girl was a real threat to her - she must have believed at that point that Ron liked her, and she certainly liked him too in GoF - her little "look away and smile" when Ron asks Krum for an autograph is, I think, evidence of that. She didn't have any real threats to her in OotP, either, though she got annoyed at Ron's view of romance, and sighed when she said to Harry "at least you're not as bad as Ron." In HBP, all hell breaks loose. She finally comes close to revealing her feelings to Ron, and he starts going out with another girl. This is a first for Hermione - she's never seen him with anyone else. She's lost control of the situation, and she fears she may have lost him. She's desperate to get him back, her emotions go over-the-top - just as they have done in the past when she's lost control, like the Devil's Snare, and her huge homework in PoA. That's why, I think, Hermione's actions in HBP were totally in-character. Amazingly intelligent as she is, that doesn't prevent her from making emotional mistakes, and she's always been a very, very emotional person throughout the series. She's not the cool, calm, collected, spunky, fiesty Hermione that's presented in the movies - that's the Hollywoodised version of her - Hermione's always been someone who is insecure and emotional, with a huge fear of failure. With Ron, she fears in HBP that she might have failed.

IceKat55
August 24th, 2005, 4:35 pm
Well yes, if JKR says that something was misinterpreted then it was misinterpreted. I understand that, but i mean, i re-read and nothing changes really :shrug: No you didn't come anywhere close to the extent that i've seen others. But some people are babying harmonians like we can't read or something, just because we saw something that they didn't see. Thats kinda what i was trying to say
The thing about this, I think, is that Harmonians didn't see something that the rest of us didn't see.

Harmonians focused on the very strong and close bond of friendship between Harry & Hermione. And I saw that, clearly, through these books...I expect everyone did. It's plain as day.

However, the only mistake Harmonians made was to ship romance between Harry & Hermione, pretty much on personal preference and (forgive me) a little bit of "wishful thinking". They tried to invent romantic feelings between two characters where clearly, the author had no intent of writing any. Rowling never wrote any clues for it, subtle, hidden, symbolic, or otherwise. I think people saw "clues" for a romance between Harry & Hermione, simply because they wanted to. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that...it makes for some beautiful fanfic, I have no doubt. It just wasn't Rowling's intention with this particular series of books.

IMO, Hermione's character did not change in HBP. She grew up just a little bit more, developed just a little bit further, as she has throughout the series, as all the characters have. But "change"? No, she didn't. She was still helpful to Harry; she still fretted and worried over his safety; she still 'helped' him (and Ron) with homework; she was still the know-it-all bookworm whose hand shot up first to answer questions in class; she still wanted to be best in the year and showed her competitive streak from time to time; she still showed jealousy regarding Ron and other girls, just as she has since GoF, telling us that she likes him as "more than a friend". She was no different...just a little more 'vocal' in her feelings for Ron. :)

H/G is another story ENTIRELY. I really did not see this coming at all. I thought that Ginny was over her 5 year crush on harry and I was quite proud of her too. But then HBP came and...well, you know what happened.;)
Not to veer completely off-topic, but I simply don't understand why Ginny's feelings for Harry should be compared to a lightswitch being flipped on & off. Harmonians who claim "but she was over him!!!"...I honestly don't get it. She gave up hope of him noticing her, yes...but why does that have to mean that she is no longer attracted to him, and wouldn't give him a chance when he finally did notice her? :huh:

meesha1971
August 24th, 2005, 6:14 pm
Well yes, if JKR says that something was misinterpreted then it was misinterpreted. I understand that, but i mean, i re-read and nothing changes really :shrug: No you didn't come anywhere close to the extent that i've seen others. But some people are babying harmonians like we can't read or something, just because we saw something that they didn't see. Thats kinda what i was trying to say

I can sympathize having suffered the same treatment from some Harmonians prior to the release of HBP. ;) I always shrugged it off because I know perfectly well that I can read. My English Lit professor in college told me I could by giving me A's. I understand the concept of symbolism quite well. I just don't agree that there is that much symbolism in the HP series.

With the rest of the stuff you said...you and JKR had the same interpretation but I didn't and I just don't see it the way you (or JKR) saw it. In the end its all based on how ya read the book...and i apparently read it "wrong". I just have to agree to disagree on how we saw those scenes :agree:

Actually, in the end it is the author's intent. JKR's vision is the only correct interpretation. If she were to decide that Voldemort is going to turn out to the good guy and Harry is really evil, I have no right to insult her for it or say she is wrong. It is her book to do with what she wants. If I don't like it, I won't read it. Basically, she is always going to be right because it is her world, she created it.

There is a really good example of this in a movie. Dumb movie but this is a good example. An older rich man decides to go back to college with his son and get his degree. His English professor assigns him an essay on a book by Kurt Vonnegut. He hires Kurt Vonnegut himself to write the essay on his own book and turns it in as his own work. His teacher gives him a failing grade and says he has no understanding of Kurt Vonnegut's work. That is a good example of how sometimes people misinterpret the author's intent. They overanalyze things. Sometimes a rose is just a rose.

random_musing
August 24th, 2005, 7:56 pm
Not to veer completely off-topic, but I simply don't understand why Ginny's feelings for Harry should be compared to a lightswitch being flipped on & off. Harmonians who claim "but she was over him!!!"...I honestly don't get it. She gave up hope of him noticing her, yes...but why does that have to mean that she is no longer attracted to him, and wouldn't give him a chance when he finally did notice her? :huh:
Well i thought she was over him because it gave her character more room to grow and not be viewed as some fan girl, which i thought "hey good job, Ginny. I still don't like you but at least you got over him:tu:" and I was expecting that for HBP...but i didn't. IMO she was still pretty flat. It wasn't convincing to me because IMO it wasn't built up. R/Hr: although i barely saw it and if so dodged it as much as possible because it was silly IMO, it was built up. But when H/G happened it was..."ah!!!where the heck did that come from? You practically ignore her for like 5 years and now this?"...but that was just how I felt.

I don't think we were digging too deeply or anything. Some theories were a bit out there but other than that I wonder if JKR was a bit worried that maybe she did give tiny accidental sybolism. She did say she goes on some online places and if anything came across the whole "buckbeak" thing. Well, if she did feel worried, she sure solved it, because buckbeak is dead (ok its just a name change but it still squashes our symbolism) Who knows? Only JKR does and unless she pops into this forum for a little hello...

Something else that I found interesting that a few Harmonians have been doing is taking a scene, usually the Post-Kiss Scene in OotP and switching around the names so that Harry is Hermione, Hermione is Ron, Ginny is Harry and Dean is Cho ( :rotfl: ). When you do that (besides a slightly OoC Hermione) you see Harry's feelings for Ginny. If thats so what does that show of Hermione's feelings? It works in other OotP scenes as well and I'm sure that if they were written the "switched" way, Chocolate shippers would be eating it all up (no pun intended even though it was really lame), harmonians sure did when it was the normal way...

When it comes down to R/Hr, not only did I see little evidence for hermione liking ron until HBP, it just doesn't interest me, kinda like how h/hr is just plain boring to herons. And in terms of H/G, I would find that a stronger inner stuggule would be loving your best friend of 5 years, rather than your best friends sister, but thats just me.

I don't even know what i'm saying anymore. I'm just rambling on i suppose. And this isn't a thread about shipping either...its about Hermione :lol I just remembered.

How do you explain Ron going from totally hero-worshipping Krum to almost the point of hatred (he dismembered the Krum toy)?
Well i did believe that Ron may have had a little crush on hermione in GoF sooo...

I didn't mean to get this thread so O.T. sorry mods! :scared:

Sorry guys, but i'm not going to debate this anymore. Its almost pointless because despite all, IMO, my good evidence for H/Hr, its just not canon. I'll just have to disagree. But it was fun to revive some of my old arguments that I had with other herons :)

Back to hermione in 3...2...1...

IceKat55
August 24th, 2005, 8:56 pm
Something else that I found interesting that a few Harmonians have been doing is taking a scene, usually the Post-Kiss Scene in OotP and switching around the names so that Harry is Hermione, Hermione is Ron, Ginny is Harry and Dean is Cho ( :rotfl: ). When you do that (besides a slightly OoC Hermione) you see Harry's feelings for Ginny. If thats so what does that show of Hermione's feelings? It works in other OotP scenes as well and I'm sure that if they were written the "switched" way, Chocolate shippers would be eating it all up (no pun intended even though it was really lame), harmonians sure did when it was the normal way...
I've seen some of those "scene switches" you're talking about, and they're actually pretty funny! But again, I disagree. That scene was never meant to even remotely hint to any feelings between Harry & Hermione, as we now concretely know. When I read the Harmonian POV on that scene, I was honestly amused. Not to sound disrespectful, but I always thought that was one of the most ridiculous of the Harmony interpretations, and was a desperate attempt to twist canon. Hermione speaking in a "brisk" and "businesslike" tone means she's jealous of Harry & Cho? No. It simply meant her attention was elsewhere, not completely focused on Harry & his love life.

What some of the Harmonians failed to understand in that scene is Rowling's use of the letter to Krum. THAT was the hidden agenda in the scene. She mentions Hermione scribbling at that letter, her quill and ink, so many times, that I actually wondered if she thought we might all have short-term memory loss. She wanted to make it very, very clear, that Hermione was writing a letter. And when it was finally revealed, who did Rowling choose to question Hermione? Not Harry...Ron. Who did Rowling choose to have a jealous reaction to the name of Krum? You got it...Ron.

And Rowling let us know that Hermione was playing a silly little mind-game with Ron. She paralleled this scene with the scene between Harry & Cho on their date. Cho was using another boy to try & prompt a jealous response in Harry. Hermione did the same, using Krum to try & prompt jealousy in Ron. Not only were the scenes paralleled, but Hermione herself explained what she and Cho had been doing, trying to find out how much the boys liked them! As she told Harry, what they were doing may not have been sensible, but it's just what girls sometimes do. :)

random_musing
August 24th, 2005, 9:04 pm
I've seen some of those "scene switches" you're talking about, and they're actually pretty funny! But again, I disagree. That scene was never meant to even remotely hint to any feelings between Harry & Hermione, as we now concretely know. When I read the Harmonian POV on that scene, I was honestly amused. Not to sound disrespectful, but I always thought that was one of the most ridiculous of the Harmony interpretations, and was a desperate attempt to twist canon. Hermione speaking in a "brisk" and "businesslike" tone means she's jealous of Harry & Cho? No. It simply meant her attention was elsewhere, not completely focused on Harry & his love life.
*shrug* i thought that they were quite useful to prove a point for h/hr.

And Rowling let us know that Hermione was playing a silly little mind-game with Ron. She paralleled this scene with the scene between Harry & Cho on their date. Cho was using another boy to try & prompt a jealous response in Harry. Hermione did the same, using Krum to try & prompt jealousy in Ron. Not only were the scenes paralleled, but Hermione herself explained what she and Cho had been doing, trying to find out how much the boys liked them! As she told Harry, what they were doing may not have been sensible, but it's just what girls sometimes do. :)

again, you're obviously "right" since JKR wants it to be heron and chocolate...But i didn't read it that way so whatever. :shrug:

PotionA
August 24th, 2005, 9:20 pm
I've read the books a bunch of times, even after reading HBP with r/hr and h/g in mind and I proudly say that i still saw potential for Harry and Hermione.

Hmmm. Interesting......

Believe me, I've tried to twist things and think of it as R/Hr and it just doesn't work. I don't see it, I don't like it, and frankly I don't think I ever will :shrug:

You see this is the exact thing we used to say about H/Hr except that their supposed potential whatever never existed. That's why we could never see it. And just because R/Hr has been made canon and no matter how blatant or romantic it is, you don't necessarily have to like it. To each his own....

I read symbolism (which JKR stepped all over in HBP :td: ), I read his mouth dropping, I read her constant care for him, I read his immediate calming feeling when she said Voldemort, I read that Krum and Cho, even RON , feeling threatened by the two together, I read her kissing him on the cheek in GoF and the fact that it was written like some sort of milestone, I read Hermione's reaction when she thought he was prefect, and I read that they had potential.

Ok JKR didn't intend on any H/Hr symbolism, clue, hint etc etc. But I guess misinterpretation, misunderstunding and such are traits we human beings are abundant in, so it's all good.

How boring would it be if everyone read everything the same way (ok, maybe you lot wouldn't have to deal with annoying harmonians but...)? I read the words on the page, and I'm not one to think "hmm, maybe after reading OotP 5 times I really read everything wrong. Oh well, i'll think the way the majority wants me to think".

Thank the Lord that you read the books differently! And yes it would be oh so dull if we all think and look at things the same way. If not, where's the fun in that?

I really hope Ron, nor anyone else in the trio dies...but her and krum were quite cute :blush:

Hermione and Krum??!!! *gasp*. Are you kidding me?!!!

Anyway, so what's with Hermione's supposed OOCness again?

random_musing
August 24th, 2005, 9:39 pm
You see this is the exact thing we used to say about H/Hr except that their supposed potential whatever never existed. That's why we could never see it. And just because R/Hr has been made canon and no matter how blatant or romantic it is, you don't necessarily have to like it. To each his own....
yup, to each his own...but I still love and will always like H/Hr and like the potential that I saw in them in books 1-5...I will NOT jump ship :no:

Hermione and Krum??!!! *gasp*. Are you kidding me?!!!
hey, they look cute in the GoF trailer :scared:

Anyway, so what's with Hermione's supposed OOCness again?
Oy, I tried to discuss that a few pages back and meesha slaughtered me...
To make a long story short I think that Hermione was quite different and the way she acted towards certain things really bothered me and I thought hermione was abducted by aliens in October and came back just in June...If thats what you're asking :huh:

lindaluna
August 24th, 2005, 10:15 pm
With Ron and Hermione, it is more than just the tension between them. There is also the fact that Ron worries about Hermione - not just saving her life but about the little things. He notices when she's working to hard, not eating, etc... and tries to get her to relax and have fun and tries to get her to eat, etc... He notices things that Harry doesn't - like when she had her teeth fixed. He stands up for her and defends her against Malfoy and Snape - to a greater degree than Harry does. He spewed slugs for her. He even risked getting detention from Snape standing up for her. Hermione has stronger reactions to Ron than she does to Harry, particularly when they show ignorance of girls. With Harry she is patient and gives him advice - like an older sister - but with Ron, she is impatient and sharp with him. She is frustrated because he hasn't made a move yet and she wants him to.
.

I liked this about Ron & Hermione in previous books - but to me, in Book 6, Hermione came out motherly or jealous (neither POV great) and Ron looked moronic sucking face with Lavender all the time. Little protection or teamwork there.... Romantically it was....not interesting....and Ron definitely seemed immature.

Hermione and Krum??!!! *gasp*. Are you kidding me?!!!



Krum's a good guy, from a different school. Very able, not into himself or his fame, liked a bookish girl - Hermione, knows himself, steadfast, loyal.... (more loyal than Won-Won)....I mean... what's wrong with that?

meesha1971
August 24th, 2005, 10:22 pm
Well i thought she was over him because it gave her character more room to grow and not be viewed as some fan girl, which i thought "hey good job, Ginny. I still don't like you but at least you got over him:tu:" and I was expecting that for HBP...but i didn't. IMO she was still pretty flat. It wasn't convincing to me because IMO it wasn't built up. R/Hr: although i barely saw it and if so dodged it as much as possible because it was silly IMO, it was built up. But when H/G happened it was..."ah!!!where the heck did that come from? You practically ignore her for like 5 years and now this?"...but that was just how I felt.

Actually, it was never said that Ginny was over Harry. Hermione told him that Ginny gave up. That is quite different. We now know that she gave up her crush on Hermione's advice. Hermione told her that Harry couldn't get to know her if she couldn't even speak in his presence. So, she gave up her crush and tried to move on and date other people. That didn't mean she didn't still have feelings for Harry. She just didn't put her life on hold waiting for him to return those feelings.

I don't think we were digging too deeply or anything. Some theories were a bit out there but other than that I wonder if JKR was a bit worried that maybe she did give tiny accidental sybolism. She did say she goes on some online places and if anything came across the whole "buckbeak" thing. Well, if she did feel worried, she sure solved it, because buckbeak is dead (ok its just a name change but it still squashes our symbolism) Who knows? Only JKR does and unless she pops into this forum for a little hello...

I don't think JKR gave accidental symbolism. I think that some people overanalysed what she wrote. Symbolism is a tricky thing because sometimes a rose is just a rose and isn't supposed to mean anything else. I think my favorite is the one of Pig zooming around the room when Hermione hugged Harry. That was supposed to be symbolism for them getting together because a "pig" was flying. That just cracked me up. That was way overanalyzed, particularly when you consider that Pig is very hyperactive and zooms around like that all the time. If Pig zooming around people's heads is supposed to mean romance then that would mean there are going to be a lot of unusual romances - like Ron and Harry or Ron and Ginny or Fred and George - not very good symbolism when you look at it like that.

I don't get the Buckbeak thing. How does changing Buckbeak's name squash anything? The symbolism for Harry and Hermione as a couple because they rode Buckbeak was flawed anyway because the actual symbolism of a hippogriff was impossible love, which meant Harry and Hermione were impossible. So what's the big deal about her changing his name? :huh:

Something else that I found interesting that a few Harmonians have been doing is taking a scene, usually the Post-Kiss Scene in OotP and switching around the names so that Harry is Hermione, Hermione is Ron, Ginny is Harry and Dean is Cho ( :rotfl: ). When you do that (besides a slightly OoC Hermione) you see Harry's feelings for Ginny. If thats so what does that show of Hermione's feelings? It works in other OotP scenes as well and I'm sure that if they were written the "switched" way, Chocolate shippers would be eating it all up (no pun intended even though it was really lame), harmonians sure did when it was the normal way...

I've seen a few of those. They are amusing. But changing the names around doesn't change the meaning of the text. If Ginny were giving Harry advice about girls and speaking briskly and being vague and absent because she was writing a letter it would mean the same thing that it did for Hermione. She wanted to help her friend and give him advice but she wasn't that interested in the kiss itself. Doesn't matter who says it. Changing the names around doesn't change the meaning of the text.

When it comes down to R/Hr, not only did I see little evidence for hermione liking ron until HBP, it just doesn't interest me, kinda like how h/hr is just plain boring to herons. And in terms of H/G, I would find that a stronger inner stuggule would be loving your best friend of 5 years, rather than your best friends sister, but thats just me.

The evidence is there. She showed jealousy towards Fleur and Padma. She had very strong reactions indicating anger and frustration to him showing ignorance of girls whereas she was patient and sister-like when Harry showed ignorance of girls. She told Ron she wanted him to ask her out during their fight after the Yule Ball.

I have to admit it worries me when people say that Harry and Hermione are the ideal couple. They don't communicate well at all. Harry ignores, avoids, and lies to Hermione to avoid confrontation. They have absolutely no romantic interest in each other. It's not just boring, it's ... I can't think of a good word. I think my soul would just wither and die in a relationship like that. They're good friends but romance between them would ruin them.

Oy, I tried to discuss that a few pages back and meesha slaughtered me... To make a long story short I think that Hermione was quite different and the way she acted towards certain things really bothered me and I thought hermione was abducted by aliens in October and came back just in June...If thats what you're asking :huh:

Yes and it took ages to get all the blood off... :evil:

Hermione is pretty much the same as she has always been. She's still obsessive about studying, still wants to be the best in every class, still helps Harry and Ron with studying and homework (except when she and Ron were fighting but that also happened in POA so it's not a change), she still helped Harry by looking things up in the library... She and Ron took a backseat to Dumbledore but that was necessary to the overall plote. The biggest change in HBP is that, this time, Hermione was the one that needed a friend to comfort her instead of her offering comfort and advice.

PotionA
August 24th, 2005, 10:30 pm
Krum's a good guy, from a different school. Very able, not into himself or his fame, liked a bookish girl - Hermione, knows himself, steadfast, loyal.... (more loyal than Won-Won)....I mean... what's wrong with that?

Rrrriiight...

Krum's more loyal than Ron??? I honestly had no idea....

random_musing
August 24th, 2005, 10:45 pm
I don't get the Buckbeak thing. How does changing Buckbeak's name squash anything? The symbolism for Harry and Hermione as a couple because they rode Buckbeak was flawed anyway because the actual symbolism of a hippogriff was impossible love, which meant Harry and Hermione were impossible. So what's the big deal about her changing his name? :huh:
How was he impossible love? :huh:
Well we didn't think it was so we thought buckbeak was a symbol of their love, and for it to suddenly be Wither-wings or whatever and for Harry/Ginny to make cracks about tatoos was just...insulting...i suggest you don't try to understand the way harmonian's minds work...you'll be too confused :agree:

I have to admit it worries me when people say that Harry and Hermione are the ideal couple. They don't communicate well at all. Harry ignores, avoids, and lies to Hermione to avoid confrontation.
he feels like crud after he lies to her (he couldn't even look into her eyes after he lied to her one time in OotP), when he doesn't avoid confrontation and they get into a spiffle they actually talk it out and not just ignore it, and they depend on each other in so many instances. I like their relationship and if given a chance i would think that JKR could have written it quite well :shrug:
They have absolutely no romantic interest in each other.
well that much was made clear after HBP...
It's not just boring, it's ... I can't think of a good word.
delusional? :p
I think my soul would just wither and die in a relationship like that.
I would wither and die from a R/Hr relationship...i can't stand arguing with people and i'm quite a sensitive person and that relationship just makes me cringe (not as much as H/G but still). But this is getting personal and I'm only 14 so my opinion of a relationship probably doesn't get respect anyways :rolleyes:

They're good friends but romance between them would ruin them.
apparently JKR thought so too :grumble:

I don't get the Buckbeak thing. How does changing Buckbeak's name squash anything? The symbolism for Harry and Hermione as a couple because they rode Buckbeak was flawed anyway because the actual symbolism of a hippogriff was impossible love, which meant Harry and Hermione were impossible. So what's the big deal about her changing his name? :huh:
how was the hippogriff impossible love? :huh:
Well even if it was flawed, we didn't think so, and suddenly making his name like wither-wings or whatever and harry/ginny making jokes about buckbeak tatoos was just...BLECH! It was almost insulting...i suggest you don't try to understand our way of thinking..to confusing to herons :agree:

I have to admit it worries me when people say that Harry and Hermione are the ideal couple. They don't communicate well at all. Harry ignores, avoids, and lies to Hermione to avoid confrontation.
he feels like crud after he lies to her (he couldn't even look into her eyes after he lied to her one time in OotP), when he doesn't avoid confrontation and they get into a spiffle they actually talk it out and not just ignore it, and they depend on each other in so many instances. I like their relationship and if given a chance i would think that JKR could have written it quite well :shrug:
They have absolutely no romantic interest in each other.
well that much was made clear after HBP...
It's not just boring, it's ... I can't think of a good word.
delusional? :p
I think my soul would just wither and die in a relationship like that.
I would wither and die from a R/Hr relationship...i can't stand arguing with people and i'm quite a sensitive person and that relationship just makes me cringe (not as much as H/G but still). But this is getting personal and I'm only 14 so my opinion of a relationship probably doesn't get respect anyways :rolleyes:

They're good friends but romance between them would ruin them.
apparently JKR thought so too :grumble:

FltnLvr
August 24th, 2005, 10:47 pm
I think Hermione was just sorta dazed in this book. SHe wasnt too happy with Ron, and all her feelings were messed up.. I felt sorry for her..
But I was sorta annoyed with her about her bugging Harry about his Potions book!!! I mean, if he wants to use it.. let him use it!
Maybe she was just jealous cause he turned to be better at Potions then she was... *nods*

Hinoema
August 24th, 2005, 11:07 pm
Hermione and Krum??!!! *gasp*. Are you kidding me?!!!

hey, they look cute in the GoF trailer

Cute? Have you seen him? Forget her, it's Krum/Me all the way!

:rotfl:

Ok, I'm seeing some wandering back into H/Hr-land... talk about "I didn't see it" and "I saw our evidence as valid" and 'right' and 'wrong'.

Literature is always open to interpretation, just like real life. It is, after all, supposed to be a representation of real events were the literary universe an actual one. When you try tp predict what will happen based on what has happened, unless you are Trelawney, you look at the people (or charactes) involved, at what they have done and what it tells you they are likely to do, and go from there.

It's not so much right and wrong as accurate and inaccurate. The Harmonian view looked at everything through a 'filter' which was caused by accepting as a base assumption the fact that Harry and Hermione had an inclination to see each other as romantic partners.

The fallacy in this logic was that the assumption was made with nothing to base it on, and basis was sought after the fact. This is a tactic that, unless one is very lucky, doomed to be proven inaccurate, which it was.

This is now a fact- these theroies and assumptions, while clever and interesting, were simply inaccurate and inapplicable to the text. And this thread is not for hashing it all out again.

Now, back to Hermione and the personality change.

Originally posted by lindaluna

I liked this about Ron & Hermione in previous books - but to me, in Book 6, Hermione came out motherly or jealous (neither POV great) and Ron looked moronic sucking face with Lavender all the time. Little protection or teamwork there.... Romantically it was....not interesting....and Ron definitely seemed immature.

She constantly acts in both a motherly and jealous way throughut the entire series. Ron being moronic is just your opinion, and if you want people to actualy take your points seriously, character bashing is not advised. 'Little protection or teamwork' is an assumption with no facts to offer to support it. The fact is that Harry and Dumbledore were together for much of the action in the book, becuase it was essential to his education. 'It was not interesting', 'Ron seemed immature'... again, opinion, which you are entitled to, but something to back it would encourage discussion.

Krum's a good guy, from a different school. Very able, not into himself or his fame, liked a bookish girl - Hermione, knows himself, steadfast, loyal.... (more loyal than Won-Won)....I mean... what's wrong with that?

Well, I could aslo say that Ron's a good guy, from the same school, very able, not into himself or fame, in fact very self-depreciating (dismissing his first Quiddich triumph immediately afret finding out that Hagrid has troubles, for instance), very much likes Hermione, constantly shows steadfastness and loyalty ("Hermione, you're brilliant", "what would we do without you", concern and protectiveness on many occasions, expects that she will get near perfect owls, etc.), capable of maturity just as much as Krum at that age, I'm sure, and with a great mutual history.

Anyway, this is about Hermione's supposed character change from book 5, not about ships or proving that Ron is worthy of Hermione. Every trait she has displayed in this book has been present from previous ones. Her emotions are just exacerbated by wartime, stress, and being in situations where she is forced, for the first time, to act on her emotions, becuase she is realizing that subtlety is not getting the results she wanted.

meesha1971
August 24th, 2005, 11:37 pm
How was he impossible love? :huh:
Well we didn't think it was so we thought buckbeak was a symbol of their love, and for it to suddenly be Wither-wings or whatever and for Harry/Ginny to make cracks about tatoos was just...insulting...i suggest you don't try to understand the way harmonian's minds work...you'll be too confused :agree:

Well, I don't think JKR intended the hippogriff to be symbolism at all actually. Let's see if I remember the debate correctly. A hippogriff is symbolism for love and the fact that Harry and Hermione rode Buckbeak meant that they were meant to fall in love. In actual mythology the hippogriff is a symbol for impossible love. If JKR intended Buckbeak to symbolize anything it would be that Harry and Hermione being in love was impossible.

I'm not going to argue over the tattoo jokes. I loved that scene. I really just want to know where Ron's pygmy puff tatoo is! ;)

he feels like crud after he lies to her (he couldn't even look into her eyes after he lied to her one time in OotP), when he doesn't avoid confrontation and they get into a spiffle they actually talk it out and not just ignore it, and they depend on each other in so many instances. I like their relationship and if given a chance i would think that JKR could have written it quite well :shrug:

But that's just it. He doesn't feel guilty for lying to her. The only time Harry felt guilty about lying was when he lied to Hagrid. He even said it himself. "Lying to Hagrid wasn't the same as lying to Hermione". That isn't the exact quote because I don't have my books on hand but it's close. Harry doesn't look her in the eye because he doesn't want her to figure out he's lying. That's a common response. There was a study done on it. When someone is lying, they don't look you in the eye. They look to the left. It has something to do with the creative side of the brain. They look to the left because they are creating - lying.

Ron and Hermione's relationship is much healthier, IMO. If Ron doesn't agree with Hermione he tells her and vice versa. They bicker about it, get it in the open, and resolve it. They don't let little things build up and have big major fights over nothing. In 6 years they have had two major fights and they were both at fault for those.

I would wither and die from a R/Hr relationship...i can't stand arguing with people and i'm quite a sensitive person and that relationship just makes me cringe (not as much as H/G but still). But this is getting personal and I'm only 14 so my opinion of a relationship probably doesn't get respect anyways :rolleyes:

I can understand that some people see bickering as a bad thing but I've had both types of relationships. The one where there was no bickering ended very, very badly with a major argument over nothing and we never spoke to each other again. I married the one I bickered with. We bicker like Ron and Hermione daily and I have never been happier. We have arguments but they don't get that serious because we don't let little issues build up and become big issues.

A little advice garnered from experience. Never ever let something small slide by. It will come back and bite you later on. If there is a problem, even a little one, it is far better to have a small argument about it and get it cleared up than it is to ignore it and let it build up into something bigger. Believe me, that is far more painful than a little bickering every day.

I think Hermione was just sorta dazed in this book. SHe wasnt too happy with Ron, and all her feelings were messed up.. I felt sorry for her..

I felt bad for her too. I also felt bad for Ron. They were both mixed up and made so many mistakes. But it wasn't inconsistent behavior. Nobody was OOC, IMO.

But I was sorta annoyed with her about her bugging Harry about his Potions book!!! I mean, if he wants to use it.. let him use it!
Maybe she was just jealous cause he turned to be better at Potions then she was... *nods*

It wasn't just because he was better at potions than she was. It was because he was better because he was cheating. The potions book had all the answers. All he had to do was follow the instructions written in by the HBP. He didn't learn anything. He couldn't do it without the book, which is the whole point of the class. To learn how to make potions on your own. That's why they have to do essays and learn about ingredients. Harry was getting praised for skills he doesn't have. Hermione was working hard, doing the studying and the research and all Harry was doing was copying someone else's work.

My school didn't allow people to use textbooks that had been written in. It was considered cheating. They collected all the books at the end of the year and checked them. If they had been written in (notes, answers, etc...) that book was destroyed and the student was responsible for replacing it.

SSJ_Jup81
August 24th, 2005, 11:39 pm
Sorry for going slightly offtopic, but why were the love topics closed anyway? I was gone for like a week or so, and came back and found both gone.

random_musing
August 24th, 2005, 11:49 pm
Sorry for going slightly offtopic, but why were the love topics closed anyway? I was gone for like a week or so, and came back and found both gone.
i think because its still a sensitive time for some people and they don't want bashing or disrespectful debating going on. In here there is a respectful debate that i doubt is going to get ugly but elsewhere...

HalfBloodGirl
August 24th, 2005, 11:49 pm
would someone please tell me what the heck is "chocolate"?

cgold
August 24th, 2005, 11:56 pm
would someone please tell me what the heck is "chocolate"?
It's another name for the Harry Ginny relationship.

or

Food or flavoring, typically a smooth sweet brown and sometimes brittle solid, made from roasted and ground cacao seeds usually sweetened and mixed with cocoa butter and dried milk.

I'm truly sorry but I've dying to do that :p .

Erroll
August 24th, 2005, 11:56 pm
would someone please tell me what the heck is "chocolate"?

http://static.virginexperiencedays.co.uk/images/originals/ultimate-chocolate-choice-hamper-large-119.jpg

:tu: Those.

Canned_Irony
August 25th, 2005, 12:18 am
Ok even though I haven't read ALL 38 pages of this I'm still going to put in my two cents.

I read that some of you think she has changed from calm, collective Hermione, to petty vindictive Hermione. I agree. But have you ever been Petty? Of course everyone is petty at one point or another. Just because we don't all hold the constant petty gene, doesn't mean we can't be petty.

As for the Imperious Curse, hey, come on. If she was under that curse, Harry and Ron would be dead. Voldemort doesn't play around like he used to, Hermione is a powerful puppet, and if I had her under my control, I'd would have already killed them with her.

As for the Potions thing. She might read and be very clever at all her stuff. And yes she has been the main Potions extrodinare of the trio, but she does go with her gut too. I believe that she would only follow the book if it was issued. And so far, if all that worked better, wouldn't they have updated the students potion books. I believe she was scared that the book might not be a trusting as Harry and Ron were trusting it.

Hermione has been a good character, as very smooth character. Hardly any rough spots. I'm glad that she has had trouble. It means she is human. And She has been my favorite sice book one, and I'm not changing that. Because the only way I'd do that is if she didn't change at all.

As for being in love with Ron. Of course she is. And she has every right to be frustrated with him.

HalfBloodGirl
August 25th, 2005, 12:18 am
very funny, erroll...why is H/G called chocolate, though?

Erroll
August 25th, 2005, 12:19 am
very funny, erroll...why is H/G called chocolate, though?

Harry and Ginny shared chocolate in a scene in one of the books. The shippers just took that rolled with it.

Or maybe it's some kind of racial thing. I don't really know. You'll have to troll their threads if you want an official answer.

Hinoema
August 25th, 2005, 12:26 am
Or maybe it's some kind of racial thing. I don't really know. You'll have to troll their threads if you want an official answer.

Be nice. We don't want this thread shut down for shipping snark.

random_musing
August 25th, 2005, 12:30 am
Or maybe it's some kind of racial thing. I don't really know. You'll have to troll their threads if you want an official answer.
:nc:

meesha1971
August 25th, 2005, 12:35 am
Sorry for going slightly offtopic, but why were the love topics closed anyway? I was gone for like a week or so, and came back and found both gone.

Someone posted a really rude and nasty post and was immediately banned. The thread shut down shortly after that. I don't know if it is permanent or not but it's been a couple of weeks now.

random_musing
August 25th, 2005, 12:47 am
Someone posted a really rude and nasty post and was immediately banned. The thread shut down shortly after that. I don't know if it is permanent or not but it's been a couple of weeks now.
in general or towards a certain ship? Just curious...

meesha1971
August 25th, 2005, 1:12 am
in general or towards a certain ship? Just curious...then its back to hermione talk...

It was an attack on Emerson, JKR, Ron and Hermione as a couple, and Harry and Ginny as a couple. The poster basically brought back up all the insults and bitterness from the week after the interview came out. They basically said JKR was a bad writer and a terrible person for not writing Harry and Hermione as a couple only they didn't say it so nicely. It quickly degraded into insults posted back and forth. Thankfully, I missed all that. I happened to read through it just before the thread was closed down. Lanifiel was not happy.

Erroll
August 25th, 2005, 1:22 am
Be nice. We don't want this thread shut down for shipping snark.

Huh. I wasn't implying anything :angel:

Besides, I used to ship Harry/Ginny, before I found the purest, truest, and most powerful form of love, which was that of Harry and Umbridge. :eyebrows:

Anyway, I never noticed Hermione's character change. She always had a vindictive streak, and can be petty. After all, she's a teenager, and you can't expect her to act like Dumbledore all the time. Honestly, it's like you guys didn't listen to the whole "Order of the Phoenix" theme of sometimes being too young to see the whole picture at all times.

random_musing
August 25th, 2005, 1:23 am
It was an attack on Emerson, JKR, Ron and Hermione as a couple, and Harry and Ginny as a couple. The poster basically brought back up all the insults and bitterness from the week after the interview came out. They basically said JKR was a bad writer and a terrible person for not writing Harry and Hermione as a couple only they didn't say it so nicely. It quickly degraded into insults posted back and forth. Thankfully, I missed all that. I happened to read through it just before the thread was closed down. Lanifiel was not happy.
oh i see...hmm...thats not something to put on these forums...I saved my extreme venting for a different forum, not here :shrug:

fenestra
August 25th, 2005, 1:35 am
She always had a vindictive streak, and can be petty. After all, she's a teenager, and you can't expect her to act like Dumbledore all the time. True. A more rash and emotional Hermione surfaced in HBP... the feelings were always there, but everything was taken to the next level in this book (especially regarding Ron's love life, which perhaps sparked this torrent of depression for Hermione). We also can't safely say "act like Dumbledore" anymore because his character changed alot, too. It was clever of JKR to put this in OotP as one of Harry's angst-thoughts while he was cooped up; Harry was getting used to the idea the Dumbledore could solve anything. As readers, I think we were too... we were getting used to the characters; many actions in HBP seemed out of character for them... Book 6 was a big eye-opener for many of the characters and that caused many of them to seem like they changed more than usual.

~fen

meesha1971
August 25th, 2005, 1:52 am
oh i see...hmm...thats not something to put on these forums...I saved my extreme venting for a different forum, not here :shrug:

Just goes to show the old saying is true. It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch. I have no idea if the Romance thread will ever be reopened. They just said it was being closed.

Huh. I wasn't implying anything :angel:

Besides, I used to ship Harry/Ginny, before I found the purest, truest, and most powerful form of love, which was that of Harry and Umbridge. :eyebrows:

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Anyway, I never noticed Hermione's character change. She always had a vindictive streak, and can be petty. After all, she's a teenager, and you can't expect her to act like Dumbledore all the time. Honestly, it's like you guys didn't listen to the whole "Order of the Phoenix" theme of sometimes being too young to see the whole picture at all times.

That's what I've been saying all along. Hermione has always had a nasty temper and when she loses her temper she can be petty and mean.

Lillibeth
August 26th, 2005, 2:01 am
All Hermione's actions in HBP that may seem uncharacteristic are a result of her feelings toward Ron. I agree, she has always had a mean streak and doesn't take jokes too lightly but does not ususally attack without genuine purpose. She was often the mature voice of reason out of the trio, but feelings are sometimes irrational. I think she, more so in HBP than the other books, realizes how she feels about Ron and the thought that he may not feel the same deeply hurts her. This emotional pain is what causes her to act rash and to cast aside all rationality. After all..."H*ll hath no fury, like a woman scorned". :evil:

MoonysGirl
August 30th, 2005, 1:37 am
I'd like to add that the trip to the DoM in OotP must have had an impact on Hermione.
I mean the whole thing was driven by Harry's impulsiveness and look where they ended up, with Sirius dying and people hurt. (And didn't she try to stop him?)

I think that made Hermione realize she couldn't trust Harry's judgement. How many times has he been wrong?
But of course dramatic irony rears its *ugly* head and mocks us all when we find that Harry was right since the beginning. Had I been Hermione I wouldn't have listened to Harry's theories either.

It did shock me though how uncaring she was when it came to Hagrid.
But all in all, I found the changes were natural.

random_musing
August 30th, 2005, 2:09 am
It did shock me though how uncaring she was when it came to Hagrid.
i didn't like that either *frown*

meesha1971
August 30th, 2005, 2:17 am
It did shock me though how uncaring she was when it came to Hagrid.
But all in all, I found the changes were natural.

I wouldn't say Hermione was 'uncaring' towards Hagrid. Hagrid was asking them to come down at sunset, which meant they would have been returning to the castle late. Basically, he was asking them to break the rules.

This wasn't a situation where they could help Hagrid. Aragog was dead and died of natural causes. They could have 'mourned' with Hagrid during the day when they were allowed to be out. Hermione herself said that if it were a matter of trying to save Aragog, it would be different.

All three of them have risked a lot trying to help Hagrid in the past. This wasn't a matter that couldn't be taken care of at any other time. They could have gone down during a free period the next day and mourned with him and/or offered condolences.

Wimsey
August 30th, 2005, 3:20 am
It did shock me though how uncaring she was when it came to Hagrid.

Hermione was hardly uncaring. It was just a circumstance where Hagrid just did not seem to be thinking, which exasperated Hermione. Hermione always is exasperated when people do not think (unless, of course, it is herself!).

lindaluna
September 1st, 2005, 12:09 pm
Rrrriiight...

Krum's more loyal than Ron???

To Hermione he is !

Krum's been writing to Hermione since Goblet of Fire - Book 4...
Ron spent all of book 6 sucking face with Lavender...

I'd like to add that the trip to the DoM in OotP must have had an impact on Hermione...I think that made Hermione realize she couldn't trust Harry's judgement...



Yes, very interesting. TO me the question is...did Harry learn anything...

Hermione only gets an E in DADA. She may not be flexible enough for it...or know herself well enough...KNOWING she was in a DADA exam, she succumbed to the boggart (McGonnagall telling her she had failed her exams) in the trunk...that was pretty lame...I can't see her being a match for someone in a one to one duel....but a good member of a team.

I used to ship Harry/Ginny, before I found the purest, truest, and most powerful form of love, which was that of Harry and Umbridge....

:eyebrows: :rotfl:

Rowayda
September 1st, 2005, 12:32 pm
It did shock me though how uncaring she was when it came to Hagrid.
*sigh*
I've posted this before, and I will post it again. She was not ''uncaring'' towards him ata ll. If your friends were almost murdered by someone, would you go to that person's funeral. Of course not! She, Ron and Harry would be like hyppocrites at his funeral, pretending to be sad when their actually feeling happy and relieved.

And, just a few quotes...

'I hate not talking to Hagrid' said Hermione, looking upset.

'I got back a couple of hours ago, I've just been down to visit Hagrid and Buck- I mean Witherwings'

HBP, A Sluggish Memory

See?
She was visiting Hagrid in her spare time, when Harry and Ron weren't there, and it is likely that this was happening throughout the year. This book, contrary to most of the others, focuses largely on Harry himself, rather than what his friends get up to ( as in meeting with Dumbledore, him trying to get past the RoR and Quidditch practise.
We don't know what was happening throuhgout the year. Just because less focus was given to Hagrid (which was good, since there can be nothing really benficial to the plot coming out of his visits) that does not mean they (especially Hermione) ignored him all year round.

felena90
September 1st, 2005, 1:44 pm
She is in Love! For me that explains everything. Hermione might have fancied Ron in the fifth book but naturally he didn`t understand it. But she is sixteen in HBP and decides that it`s time to start dating. She understands that she loves Ron but, of course, she can`t just tell him: "Hey, you know, I really like you, don`t you want to go out with me?" That would be really embarrassing. Hermione is upset that Ron doesn`t court her, she`s not just a bookworm any more, she wants to be loved, to feel that she`s a girl for guys, not just a friend or the cleverest student in the school. So naturally she`s jealous and angry with Ron.
Just think: She`s loved him for many years (perhaps, since her third year in Hogwart or even earlier), she`s always tried to support him. But he just didn`t understand it. Then in the forth year she meats Krum and she knows that he really likes her. Maybe it`s time to start some action? I don`t t think that she used Krum just to make Ron jealous, but I don`t think that she loved Viktor either. He`s just a friend for her, nothing more. But it works. And Ron starts to notice that the girl that has been friends with him for all these years really is a girl. And he starts to feel something towards her. He`s not ready to ask her for a date (though I think Hermione wouldn`t mind) but he`s really angry when he finds out that she writes to Krum in OotP. Ron thinks that Hermione is his own already though he hasn`t told it her. Then next year she makes it perfectly clear that she likes Ron . This time we have a party again (like the Ball in GoF). Ron didn`t ask Hermione to the Ball and now she takes the matters in her own hands and invites Ron to the party. She helps him to get a position of Keeper and almost tells him that she`s in love with him. And what is next? This nasty Ronald starts snogging that stupid Lavander Brown! Of course she can`t control her emotions any more, she tries to distract herself doing what she can do easily - conjuring birds. And than this terrible Weasly comes in the classroom with that ugly giggling Brown... Of course she wants to revenge! And Ron understands that he`s wrong but how can he admit it now? No way!
Revenge goes on and now Hermione decides to go out with McLaggen, this time not to make Ron jealous but to revenge. That is stupid but perfectly understandable. And Malfoy helps a big deal in this situation - if it hadn`t been for poisoned Butterbear Ron and Hermione might have quarreled for a very long time and Harry`s voice might have "soon vanished from lack of use". :)




If you`d like to visit my Russian site you should go to www.felena90.narod.ru

esmerelda
September 1st, 2005, 8:34 pm
All Hermione's actions in HBP that may seem uncharacteristic are a result of her feelings toward Ron. I agree, she has always had a mean streak and doesn't take jokes too lightly but does not ususally attack without genuine purpose. She was often the mature voice of reason out of the trio, but feelings are sometimes irrational. I think she, more so in HBP than the other books, realizes how she feels about Ron and the thought that he may not feel the same deeply hurts her. This emotional pain is what causes her to act rash and to cast aside all rationality. After all..."H*ll hath no fury, like a woman scorned". :evil:

As much as I disliked Hermione's behaviour in HBP, I don't think it's solely because she was afraid Ron didn't like her back. If Hermione had truly believed that Ron didn't like her the way she liked him, I don't think she would have acted all petty like she did in HBP - I think she would have cried and felt terrible, but she would have tried to salvage her friendship with him. I think it was more that, just when she and Ron were about to get together (and after she had taken the rather huge and terrifying step of asking him to Slughorn's party with her), he ditched her to pursue a purely physical relationship with a girl Hermione neither likes nor respects.

I think Hermione went absolutely mad in HBP. I'm sure hormones play their part, but I can't believe she was that crazy. Cursing Maclaggen to keep him off the team, then using him to make Ron feel jealous? I know Hermione has a temper and can use her brains to her advantage, but it just seemed too petty to me. And I can't believe the trio would spend the majority of the year divided like that, not after all the dangers they had faced and knew they would go on to face. Hermione used to be the character I most related to, but not so any more. And what happened to SPEW?! I don't expect it to have a whole sub-plot, but some mention of it would be nice.

cgold
September 1st, 2005, 8:45 pm
To Hermione he is !

Krum's been writing to Hermione since Goblet of Fire - Book 4...
Ron spent all of book 6 sucking face with Lavender...So he's more loyal to her in book 6 where he doesn't even appear :rolleyes: ? I know that there is no way books 1-5 (not that HBP should be either) could be included in this interpretation unless we're dealing with another Harry Potter series. We would have to decide we're going to ignore that Ron has been her friend since book 1 watching out for her and making sure she's okay. Checking her eating habits, noticing her overworked schedule, saving her from trolls, puking up slugs, etc. etc. etc. I don't know why people refuse to cut Ron some slack. The guy is a teenager, not 150 year old Dumbledore (although I loved that theory!!). He's insecure and doesn't think he's worthy of Hermione (clearly a perception he's projected unto one too many :rolleyes: ). He's jealous and argumentative. I love guys like Ron. I'm not really into Chosen Ones, twins, pretty boys, dragon keepers and guys that are too old for me (well except Snape :eyebrows: , if he's not on the dark side). Ron is just right :love: .

Cheers :tu:

Wimsey
September 1st, 2005, 10:49 pm
She is in Love! For me that explains everything. Hermione might have fancied Ron in the fifth book but naturally he didn`t understand it.

Actually, Hermione has pretty clearly had a "thing" for Ron stretching back to PoA if not earlier. (Yes, there was obviously a Krum sojourn, but life can be confusing at 15: like Ginny, I suspect that Hermione never really gave up on her first crush.) She finally did something about it in HBP, and that all went quite wrong. One should not discount the effect that would have on an insecure person like Hermione. As her boggart showed, the one thing she fears most is failure, and her attempt to initiate a nonplatonic relationship with Ron failed. This comes after years of failing to get him to first notice that she even was a girl (recall how upset she was by Ron's behavior in GoF).

I don't know why people refuse to cut Ron some slack. The guy is a teenager, not 150 year old Dumbledore (although I loved that theory!!). He's insecure and doesn't think he's worthy of Hermione (clearly a perception he's projected unto one too many...

That is about right. Both Ron & Hermione are fairly insecure people, albeit in different ways. A lot of the time they prop each other up very nicely; they seem to be doing a better job of that in the second half of HBP. Still, they seemed doomed to being a "co-dependent" couple: not a great fate (in my opinion) but actually the best possible one for an insecure person.

(I had more than one girlfriend of the "Hermione" mold: very bright but very insecure; it was more work than play by a long shot.....)


And what happened to SPEW?! I don't expect it to have a whole sub-plot, but some mention of it would be nice.

Fortunately for this reader, it is well onto the backburner. However, SPEW did come up from Harry's perspective. Hermione probably has realized that there is not much that a single student can do about this; in OotP she mentions that she wants to take SPEW further. She might do this after Hogwarts.

Also, this little nugget might yet be important. It is commonly thought that Regulus Black is RAB and that Kreacher was his accomplice. That might seem totally irrelevant. However, it is possible that Hermione's kindness to Kreacher will play a role in Kreacher cooperating with Harry.

potmonst
September 1st, 2005, 11:10 pm
I think the hormones have finally kicked in. And come on, they took long enough. Hermione's actually the most mysterious of the trio - we know everything Harry feels and Ron is pretty easy to read but Hermione's more of a puzzle. We don't know for sure how long she has been in love with Ron. I think she thought after the scene in the greenhouse that Ron was finally going to ask her out, and felt very hurt when he didn't. This eventually made her vindictive. Although her character change might have seemed quite sudden to us, it could have been brewing under the surface for literally years.
Anyway... I like the new Hermione, she is a more rounded character, and more interesting.

SSJ_Jup81
September 1st, 2005, 11:50 pm
To Hermione he is !

Krum's been writing to Hermione since Goblet of Fire - Book 4...
Ron spent all of book 6 sucking face with Lavender...Lavendar showed an open interest in Ron; Hermione, at the time, really hadn't been obvious and open, not as much as Lavendar had. If in the situation, who would you go for? The person who may like you, but keeps giving off mixed signals and the chances of being "rejected" is high (Hermione), or the one who definitely does (Lavendar)?

tashatash
September 2nd, 2005, 10:23 am
She just seemed like a teenage girl to my friend and me. Girls do stupid stuff when they like a boy, especially if they like him A LOT! So Hermione was being a girl. A girl who probably loves Ron. In the words of No Doubt "i'm just a girl"

meesha1971
September 2nd, 2005, 2:38 pm
Lavendar showed an open interest in Ron; Hermione, at the time, really hadn't been obvious and open, not as much as Lavendar had. If in the situation, who would you go for? The person who may like you, but keeps giving off mixed signals and the chances of being "rejected" is high (Hermione), or the one who definitely does (Lavendar)?

Exactly. Not only that, she was flirting with him and complimenting him at a time when he was feeling bad about himself. He felt that Hermione had lied to him about her relationship with Krum and thought that she didn't believe in his ability to play Quidditch well on his own - without Felix Felicis. Lavender just had really good timing there.

Hermione asked him to go to Slughorn's party but it wasn't specified as a "date" for them. With his state of mind at that point, he probably thought she was asking him to go as a friend because she felt sorry for him not being included in the Slug Club.

icecreamqueen
September 2nd, 2005, 3:36 pm
I have been feeling the same way. Her treatment towards Harry bugged me the most. How can jealously over being #1 in school lead to being such a snot to someone with as much to worry about as Harry?

And she was always way too quick to judge Ron (and others) for emotional immaturity so it's harder to forgive her for it now.

"I only date talented quidditch players." C'mon! They are supposed to be best friends.

I personally, sympathize a lot with Hermione. Harry was cheating on his potions, making wonderful potions without effort, while she tried her hardest, and was still not as good as Harry. Wouldn't you be mad at him? Also, she kept telling Harry not to use the spells written in the books, and he did anyway, and made a total mess of things with the Sectumsempra.

Also, if anyone was emotionally immature it was Ron, at least at the begginning. They had a date planned and over night he started being horrible to her, and then started snogging someone else. She said the "I date really good quidditch players" line because she was so hurt by Ron's behavoir and was trying to make him mad. Best friend or not, Ron deserved what Hermioen gave him.
(he was redeemed though, as sson as he said her name in his sleep while he was poisoned. )

Mariakins
September 2nd, 2005, 3:38 pm
Yeah, I understand that she changed, but is it really so bad as to no longer like her? She has grown up and is experiencing jelousy for the first time. She is also still young and you know that teens can be pretty fickle. I know I was at that age. And of course there is the added dynamic of the wizarding world. So are we really shocked by the canaries? ANYWAY, JKR knew what she was doing when she developed her character. So... let's just sit back and watch how it all plays out.

Have a great day!

AsTearsGoBy
September 2nd, 2005, 5:16 pm
We also have to remember Hermione isnt going to immeditally begin showing her feelings for Ron for two reasons. 1. they've been friends for soo long, and it would just be plian werid a differnt to her. 2. what if she was wrong and Ron didnt like her? tehn the friendship they had would be awkward from then on.
The change in Hermione's character i thought was a good change since she's maturing and finally becoming a 'girl.'
Something i still havent achieved yet.....

icecreamqueen
September 2nd, 2005, 5:58 pm
People are talking about Hermione being "out of character".

She's JKR's character and JKR wrote the book! How can JKR write her own character out of character? JKR knows her character backward and front, more than any of us do. I think she developed Hermione as a character wonderfully. Hermione was great in HBP. Applause for JKR for such a great book!

FaceofBoe
September 2nd, 2005, 6:02 pm
It still surprises me how many people see her as out-of-character - for me, she was the same Hermione I'd read about in Books 1-5. There wasn't any noticable difference to me - Hermione has always been insecure, waspish, nasty at times with her humour, bossy, sometimes over-emotional, and sometimes even smug. She displayed all those traits in the first five books. She seemed totally in-character to me - she was just put in more situations that, emotionally, she wasn't comfortable with and didn't like. The one thing that surprised me slightly was Hermione Confunding McClaggen - but then, we were promised long ago that Hermione would lighten up as far as rules were concerned, and she did blackmail Rita in quite a vicious way in GoF and OotP, so I shouldn't have been surprised.

esmerelda
September 3rd, 2005, 10:51 am
It still surprises me how many people see her as out-of-character - for me, she was the same Hermione I'd read about in Books 1-5. There wasn't any noticable difference to me - Hermione has always been insecure, waspish, nasty at times with her humour, bossy, sometimes over-emotional, and sometimes even smug. She displayed all those traits in the first five books. She seemed totally in-character to me - she was just put in more situations that, emotionally, she wasn't comfortable with and didn't like. The one thing that surprised me slightly was Hermione Confunding McClaggen - but then, we were promised long ago that Hermione would lighten up as far as rules were concerned, and she did blackmail Rita in quite a vicious way in GoF and OotP, so I shouldn't have been surprised.

Maybe I'm clutching at straws, but to me she blackmailed Rita for the greater good (by having her stop spying on them and then to get the truth out to the wizarding world). In HBP she was confunding McClaggen so that Ron made it on the quidditch team, and using him to make Ron jealous. Her motivations were very different. I still feel she was acting differently than in previous books.

And I've heard a few people say that because JKR is the author, she can't possibly be writing Hermione out of character. I really disagree with that. If there are character inconsistencies that aren't accounted for, then that is out of character, surely.

Deevo
September 3rd, 2005, 12:41 pm
Maybe I'm clutching at straws, but to me she blackmailed Rita for the greater good (by having her stop spying on them and then to get the truth out to the wizarding world).
Actually she was pretty indifferent to Rita till the 'Harry Potter's Secret Hearache' article and it's subsequent letters.
'What's up?' said Ron
'It's - oh, how ridiculuous -' She thrust the letter at Harry who saw that it was not handwritten, but comprised from pasted letters that seemed to have been cut out of the Daily Prophet.

You are a WickEd giRL. HaRRy PottEr desErves BetteR. gO Back wherE you cAME from mUggle.

'They're all like it! said Hermione desperately, opening one letter after another. '"Harry Potter can do much better than the likes of you ..." "You deserve to be boiled in frog spawn ...' Ouch!'

She had opened the last envelope, and yellowish green liquid smelling strongly of petrol gushed over her hands, which began to erupt in large yellow boils.
'Undiluted Bubotuber pus!' said Ron, picking up the envelope gingerly and sniffing it.
'Oq!' said Hermione, tears starting in her eyes as she tried to rub it off her hands with a napkin, but her fingers were now so thickly covered in painful sores that it looked like she was wearing a pair of thick, knobbly gloves.
And later.'Well, we know what to get you next Christmas,' said Hermione brightly. Then when Ron continued to look gloomy, she said, 'Come on, Ron, it could be worse. At least your fingers aren't full of pus.' Hermione was having a lot of difficulty managing her knife and fork, her fingers were so stiff and swollen. 'I hate that Skeeter woman!' she burst out savagely, 'I'll get her back for this if it's the last thing I do!'
Italics as in the book, green highlights mine.

I think it's pretty clear from these passages the primary reason behind Hermione's treatment of Rita. Does that make it right? Probably not but it is consistant with her nature then and later in HBP.

In HBP she was confunding McClaggen so that Ron made it on the quidditch team
Actually as has been already said here it's more likely she confounded Mclaggan because he was being such a berk. Making him miss one save out of five before Ron even tried out would scarecly ensure Ron made the team, if anything it would increase the pressure on him as he'd know he had to be perfect.

and using him to make Ron jealous. Her motivations were very different. I still feel she was acting differently than in previous books.
The way she used her letter to Viktor in OOTP?

And I've heard a few people say that because JKR is the author, she can't possibly be writing Hermione out of character. I really disagree with that.
Actually, so do I, some authors do change their characters from one book to the next, look at Anne Mccaffrey's Tower and the Hive series for a good example, she completely changed the character of Kincade in the last book.

If there are character inconsistencies that aren't accounted for, then that is out of character, surely.
If there are, certainly. In this instance it doesn't appear to be the case.

To reiterate on a point that I made much earlier in this thread, Hermione's characterisation has been somewhat influenced by her role in previous books as information provider, this tended to balance out some of her less stellar qualities so they may not have been so apparent. In this book that role has almost completely been taken away from her so when we do see her their isn't the usual positive connitation to offset her flaws and we see them naked and unvarnished.

Well anyway that's my take for what it's worth, make of it what you will.

Mpol
September 3rd, 2005, 2:01 pm
Deevo, awesome point, having read the HBP so many times now, her charatcer seemed very much... well in character

esmerelda
September 3rd, 2005, 3:24 pm
Actually she was pretty indifferent to Rita till the 'Harry Potter's Secret Hearache' article and it's subsequent letters.
'What's up?' said Ron
'It's - oh, how ridiculuous -' She thrust the letter at Harry who saw that it was not handwritten, but comprised from pasted letters that seemed to have been cut out of the Daily Prophet.

You are a WickEd giRL. HaRRy PottEr desErves BetteR. gO Back wherE you cAME from mUggle.

'They're all like it! said Hermione desperately, opening one letter after another. '"Harry Potter can do much better than the likes of you ..." "You deserve to be boiled in frog spawn ...' Ouch!'

She had opened the last envelope, and yellowish green liquid smelling strongly of petrol gushed over her hands, which began to erupt in large yellow boils.
'Undiluted Bubotuber pus!' said Ron, picking up the envelope gingerly and sniffing it.
'Oq!' said Hermione, tears starting in her eyes as she tried to rub it off her hands with a napkin, but her fingers were now so thickly covered in painful sores that it looked like she was wearing a pair of thick, knobbly gloves.
And later.'Well, we know what to get you next Christmas,' said Hermione brightly. Then when Ron continued to look gloomy, she said, 'Come on, Ron, it could be worse. At least your fingers aren't full of pus.' Hermione was having a lot of difficulty managing her knife and fork, her fingers were so stiff and swollen. 'I hate that Skeeter woman!' she burst out savagely, 'I'll get her back for this if it's the last thing I do!'
Italics as in the book, green highlights mine.

I think it's pretty clear from these passages the primary reason behind Hermione's treatment of Rita. Does that make it right? Probably not but it is consistant with her nature then and later in HBP.


Actually as has been already said here it's more likely she confounded Mclaggan because he was being such a berk. Making him miss one save out of five before Ron even tried out would scarecly ensure Ron made the team, if anything it would increase the pressure on him as he'd know he had to be perfect.


The way she used her letter to Viktor in OOTP?


Actually, so do I, some authors do change their characters from one book to the next, look at Anne Mccaffrey's Tower and the Hive series for a good example, she completely changed the character of Kincade in the last book.


If there are, certainly. In this instance it doesn't appear to be the case.

To reiterate on a point that I made much earlier in this thread, Hermione's characterisation has been somewhat influenced by her role in previous books as information provider, this tended to balance out some of her less stellar qualities so they may not have been so apparent. In this book that role has almost completely been taken away from her so when we do see her their isn't the usual positive connitation to offset her flaws and we see them naked and unvarnished.

Well anyway that's my take for what it's worth, make of it what you will.

Not that it really matters, but I disagree that she was using the letter to Viktor to make Ron jealous in OotP. And I would still call her actions towards Rita in GoF and OotP justified, but not so towards McClaggen. You make a really interesting point, that Hermione is no longer filling her most useful role and so her flaws are more obvious. I hadn't really thought of that. I read HBP before my brother did, and as I was approaching the end he asked, "Is Hermione saving the day now?", and I realised that she hadn't contributed to the main plot half as much as usual. Maybe her character suffered the most because of the focus on the Harry-Dumbledore relationship.

meesha1971
September 3rd, 2005, 5:58 pm
Not that it really matters, but I disagree that she was using the letter to Viktor to make Ron jealous in OotP. And I would still call her actions towards Rita in GoF and OotP justified, but not so towards McClaggen. You make a really interesting point, that Hermione is no longer filling her most useful role and so her flaws are more obvious. I hadn't really thought of that. I read HBP before my brother did, and as I was approaching the end he asked, "Is Hermione saving the day now?", and I realised that she hadn't contributed to the main plot half as much as usual. Maybe her character suffered the most because of the focus on the Harry-Dumbledore relationship.


Hermione's anger towards Rita was justified. Her actions were not. The right thing to do would have been to report Rita to the authorities. Rita was breaking the law. Hermione broke the law when she took it upon herself to punish Rita by kidnapping her, holding her hostage in a jar, and blackmailing her for a year. There is no justification for Hermione's actions. I loved it and I think Rita deserved it but there was no "greater good" served by Hermione's actions. It was personal.

Deevo is right, Hermione's character didn't change at all. Her role changed. Dumbledore stepped in and Hermione was not needed as much.

missypotter
September 3rd, 2005, 6:39 pm
Hermione hasn't "changed" she has grown. Her same basic character traits are all in place. She has always been more mature than Ron and Harry and we are used to their immature antics. She is the same person. She has always been daring (polyjuice potion), loyal, and willing to fight for what she thinks is right.

IMO she has taken her great qualities and is moving into a young adult with them. Behaviors that seem petty in Hermione can be seen as protection of what she truly believes to be right. She thought Ron's behavior was inappropriate, it was. If he had been in love with Lavender and discret, she would have been happy for his happiness. She loves Ron and Harry and has always bent the rules to protect them. Let's just look at the bigger picture folks.

She is the same great Hermione and we need to allow her to grow up as well.

silvery orb
September 3rd, 2005, 8:21 pm
It really irks me that so many are using "becoming a teenager" as the excuse for Hermione's shallowness in HBP. I think its an insult to teenagers everywhere - who history has shown can be some of the most dedicated and driven people on earth. Anyway, girls hit puberty at around 13. We've already seen how hormones affect Hermione but before HBP she never abandoned her principles to get ahead or to get revenge.

Sure, she captured Rita and slapped Malfoy, but they deserved it, didn't they? She could have flaunted Victor in front of Ron - but she didn't (taking Victor's feelings into account). She's always been a competitive know-it-all, but when push comes to shove...Hermione sticks be her principles and does the moral thing. That's who she has always been.

But the HBP Hermione? Who is she? Sabatoging Quidditch tryouts? Physically attacking Ron? Arrogantly scoffing at Aragog's funeral? Being petty and mean-spirited towards Harry? Manipulating some guy to get revenge on Ron? And where is her passion for elves? She's a stranger to me, and one I don't really like.

Bottom line: JK dropped the ball on one of her best characters.

Dralien
September 3rd, 2005, 9:33 pm
I cannot believe that someone actually thought that this was a good idea for a thread...no offense Messed. Hermione's character change was no differnet from Harry's in OotP. Also, Ron doesn't believe in all that Draco stuff either and dismisses it as readily as Hermione does. Ron stoops to the same level as Hermione does when she asks out McLaggen when Ron asks out Lavender. (Don't get me wrong Ron and Hermione are my two favorite characters in the book so I mean no offense to either of them). I'm sure if Ron had the ability to send a flock of canaries hurtling at Hermione he would have done so when he found out about her hooking up with Krum. For everytime that Hermione insults or laughs at Ron he teases her right back. Hermione has also stopped speaking to Ron and gotten this upset before in PoA with the whole Scabbers and Crookshanks thing and after the Yule Ball in GoF.

I believe that these changes stem from two things, the DoM battle and Ron. The first, the battle at the DoM, Hermione had a near-death experience. No one can say that almost dying won't change a person and I think that Hermione realized the effects of this war and how short her life could be. This ties into the next reason for her change in HBP: Ron. Imagine having liked a boy, who is also your best friend, for 3 years (yes, since PoA) he shows absolutely no signs of liking you back to your face. You told him you would have liked to go to a party with you, you have flirted with him, you have spent several weeks alone with him over the summer (it is more than likely that while at Grimmauld place and the Burrow Hermione made her best efforts to get Ron to notice her) and this boy does nothing about it. Finally you seem to make some break through (the scene in Herbology talking about Hermione inviting Ron to the Slug Club party) and then all of the sudden you see him making out with some girl in front of everybody. For someone like Hermione who very rarely wears her emotions on her sleeve (other than crying when Ron is horrible to her) it must have been really hard for her to admit she liked Ron and then all of the sudden he and Lavender are "thrashing about like a pair of eels". Now this post was not intended to attack Ron, Hermione or Lavender or Messed (the creator of the thread) but Hermione's 'character change' comes from the neglect and abuse from Ron, which fuels her already numerous insecurties. Hermione never became "petty" or "vindictive" other than the canaries (which was a bit odd) she and Ron have been doing things like this to eachother since the day they met.

And as for the potions book? How would you like it if you worked your butt off in school and it was the most important thing to you and all of the sudden your best friend steals all the glory you should have gotten for your hard work? I'd be ****** too. Hermione doesn't care that Harry is better than her in DADA, and if Harry had done the Potions work on his own she wouldn't have cared either, but for someone like Hermione were school and fairness matter so much its no wonder it upset her.

Also, Hermione was likely to stray a little from Harry. With Ron and her fighting throughout a good part of the book and Harry all wrapped up in his lessons with Dumbledore Hermione needed someone to hang out with. And its more than likely that a 16-year-old girl would rather hang out with some other girls who understand her better (the girl side I mean, no one really understands her more than Ron and Harry) than two boys who she really has had trouble getting along with.

And about SPEW...everyone criticzed Hermione about the fact that house-elves didn't want liberation and that SPEW was pointless...maybe she just decided to listen to everyone? And Ron also mocks Aragog's burial, even more than Hermione.

Hermione isn't de-maturing she's maturing and anyone who describes her love for Ron as "petty" need to start listening to Dumbledore more. Before Hermione is described as being "vindictive" she is described as "hurt" and "bewildered" most of Hermione's different actions in this book occur from Ron completely ignoring her and being mean to her. Notice that once Ron and Lavender break up and Hermione and Ron are back on track Hermione becomes much more like her old self? It has to do with Ron not a change in her character why she acts so differently. And in the canary scene both Ron and Harry expect Hermione to do something like this so I don't think that Hermione's character has changed, but I think she's realized what's really going on with her and Ron. Whenever she's getting along with Ron she's a wonderful person and her same old self, but when Ron is being mean to her or she is mad at him for making out with Lavender she does turn into a miserable wreck, not a petty, catty and vindictive 'female dog' (the real word is 5 letters long and would most definately get *ed). For every petty and vindictive thing Hermione does (being mean to Ron, not taking Aragog's burial seriously etc.) Ron does it the same amount (if not more). If anything this thread is blatant sexism.

SSJ_Jup81
September 3rd, 2005, 9:51 pm
Sure, she captured Rita and slapped Malfoy, but they deserved it, didn't they? Malfoy deserved it, but, the thing with Rita was equally wrong. She could've just turned her into the authorities instead of handing out what she felt was a rightful punishment. That's like a civilian capturing a criminal, and executing them just because they feel that it's just for the crime committed, instead of letting the authorities deal with it.But the HBP Hermione? Who is she? Sabatoging Quidditch tryouts?She's done it before, though. She sabotaged one goal, because the guy insulted her two friends (Ginny and Ron). She slapped Malfoy in PoA for insulting Hagrid, her friend. I don't see much of a difference, actually. Physically attacking Ron?I actually found this a normal reaction from Hermione. I figured she was going to lash out in some way or form, because it's not like her not to. If she hadn't have reacted in some way or form, that would've been out of character. Arrogantly scoffing at Aragog's funeral?I won't repeat it, since it's been mentioned, but Hermione is a rule follower for the most part. It would've been wrong of her to go mourn for something she had no connection to, and risk getting in trouble for. Ron felt the same way, and so did Harry, to a certain extent.Being petty and mean-spirited towards Harry?I didn't find this out of character at all. Hermione is very serious when it comes to school work and doesn't approve of one cutting corners. Harry was literally cheating, not working hard like she always had to obtain her good grades. Harry was easing by in the class, while she stuggled and couldn't do better than him. Hermione wasn't really mean-spirited, but annoyed and probably jealous.

As for not taking Harry seriously, like others have pointed out, myself included, Harry has been shown time and time again to be wrong. He was wrong about the DoM; she, as well as the others, could have easily been killed. Besides, you can't apply this to Hermione and not Ron, since both were on the same level here. Neither believed in Harry's, somewhat, outrageous theories. That's called literary irony.Manipulating some guy to get revenge on Ron?This is about the only thing I semi-agree with. I couldn't see her going out with a guy just to get another guy's attention, but, apparently, she would. There is that letter she wrote to Viktor in front of Ron in OotP. No, I don't think she was trying to get him jealous, but was trying to get some kind of a reaction (or confession) out of him.And where is her passion for elves? There's no indication that her passion for the House Elves died. It was pretty much implied that she did very much still care about them (look at her reaction when she found out about Kreacher and Dobby tailing Malfoy, but Harry cut her off), but apparently, this wasn't important enough for this story to even include the whole "SPEW" subplot. We all know about it, why bother to keep mentioning it.

You must also remember this; we do not follow Hermione or Ron around like we do Harry. This is Harry's story, so the stuff he does will be much more important or significant. IMO, I felt that the whole SPEW thing was brought up in the first place to further emphasize how discrimating it is and Dumbledore pointing out how Hermione was right in OotP. IMO, I feel that SPEW's awareness has served its purpose, unless, it plays some knid of a role in book 7 to help gain them as allies to fight against Voldemort.

GinnyRules
September 3rd, 2005, 9:57 pm
The reason Hermione has changed is simple and explained in one word: LOVE

Dralien
September 4th, 2005, 12:10 am
Nice job SSJ_Jup I agree with you wholeheartedly and to expand on what GinnyRules said: look at Tonks. The Tonks we meet in OotP is energetic, funny, youthful, juevenile and humorous and has bright pink hair but in HBP she is sad, moody, lazy (for lack of a better word, mostly just seeming tired all the time) and has mousy brown hair with bits of grey...even her patronus changes! Why? Because of her love for Lupin. Hermione changes too when she begins to realize how deep her feelings for Ron are.

H_Granger
September 4th, 2005, 12:13 am
Think about Hermione in previous books. She was always the mature, compassionate, sometimes nagging, but always righteous kind of person. I mean, remember how she was as a Prefect in OotP? But now she's confunding McLaggen and then asking him to Slughorn's party in order to make a guy jealous? And pelting canaries at Ron because he's kissing another girl? This is the petty behaviour that I've grown to expect from the likes of Lavendar or Parvati or Cho or maybe even Ginny...but Hermione? I know that that seems like something some girls would do but I never thought Hermione would ever...I dunno...sink that low.

I agree she seemed different, but I wouldn't say she "sunk low". I think maybe Hermione has been keeping her feeling inside for too long, and this was the breaking point. I mean think about it. Her whole world is falling apart. Her parents lives are in danger, people are being killed everyday. One of her best friends is in constant danger of being murdered, and has to (eventually) hunt down the person trying to kill him. Her other best friend, who is in almost as much danger, has started dating, and she has feelings for him. She couldn't hold it all in any longer. She crumbled under the pressure. I think, personally, that she will be back to, or at least closer to, her normal slef by HP7. She just had to let it out. And, in a way, it worked, didn't it? Lavender and Ron have broken up, and she and Ron certainly seemed closer by the end of HBP....anyways, that's just my theory:)