Hermione's Character Change: Did You Notice It?

It still interests me how the same set of arguments and discussions keep revolving here.

8th August 2005 Link Here. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=2794766#post2794766)

Hermione Granger - Saint or Schoolgirl?

While I haven't read this thread in it's entirity I think I've caught the gist of it and I must say to those that think Hermione's character has changed in HBP I don't really agree with you. To be fair I can see how that perception has come about though as her role in this book has been diminished somewhat from previous works by Dumbledore's taking a more active role in mentoring Harry and from that we are seeing other aspects of her personality, not necessarily flattering ones, coming forward. These aspects were always present in the past though and were simply overshadowed IMO by her role as an information giver.

*Note: The following is opinion only, make of it what you will.*

Hermione as a stickler for the rules.
Frankly only when it suits her aims. We see two diametrically opposite expressions of this in HBP first with her cursing Mclaggan at the quidditch trials and next her attitude toward Harry and his potions book.

In the first instance she tags Mclaggen very accurately and understands with his ego he'd be a detriment to the team as a whole regardless of how competant he actually is. I don't think she did this for Ron's benefit rather for the Gryffindor team's and in the long run she was proven right, Mclaggen proved to be totally useless to the team.

With the potions book we have a completely different aspect. I have a hard time believing that had events bee different and Hermione had wound up with Snape's old potions book she wouldn't have enthusiastically accepted the 'help' contained within it's pages. She may have been more cautious than Harry in using the hexes but on the whole probably would have been enthusiastic about it. Her problem with the book was one we've seen before and that is that she doesn't like being overshadowed in academic achievement which she sees as her turf. In the previous year when she and Ron are proposing the DA to Harry she gets quite cool with him when she talks about how he outperformed her in the DADA classes and changes the subject quite quickly.

Hermione's mean streak.
I've read a whole bunch of posts saying how out of character it was of her to have both sicced her birds on Ron and to have gone out with Mclaggen for the express purpose of getting back at him. I don't think it was. Once again when someone has threatened or hurt her in the past we've seen her take direct action that has affected the perpetrator severely. The example of Rita is the most blatant one but Marietta's disfigurement was another such example and while both had some level of justification, neither were particularly nice actions on her behalf.

Hermione as a jealous minx.
Actually I thought her behaviour was pretty restrained in this book, I half expected either Lavender or Ron to be on the receiving end of something much worse than a flock of tweety birds. Still we've seen quite blatantly since GOF that Hermione gets quite jealous of any girl paying attention to Ron. We've seen her catty toward Fleur, waspish toward Rosemarita and bringing Ron down a peg when Padma was paying attention to him after the second task in GOF. Her choice of partners to Slughorn's party was clearly made with the aim of getting back at Ron for the hurt he'd given her with his little Lavender lip trip.

There is plenty more that I could say here but I'm not going to ramble on any further. I'll just say in short I don't think Hermione's character has changed at all bar growing up some though having her usual role somewhat removed in this book has allowed us to see other aspects of her character much more clearly than we have done in the past.

Does any of this make her a bad person? :no: Most definately not! She's still my favourite character in the books (though Ginny's catching up in the rankings :eyebrows:) and her flaws only add to her interest for me. As I said when I first came to these forums the thing I like about these books is that Jo has managed to provide us with such realistic, flawed human characters even if their setting is somewhat fantastic. And that view hasn't changed for me.

Well, that was what I thought over six months ago and being involved in this discussion since then has only added to what my initial opinions were on the subject, not changed them in essence. Discussion here has led me to consider Hermione's actions in confounding Mclaggen were less noble than I perhaps initially thought though in the long run the results of her bringing him down a peg were justified when he finally made the team and showed all and sundry just how detrimental his prescence was.

Funnily enough in making such an observation I fell for one of the most common traps regarding Hermione's character myself, that is that in the past her actions have always been camoflaged by consequences that have made them seem more noble and acceptable than they probably were in real terms.

The Polyjuice potion in Chamber of Secrets. Though the aim of it's use was ostensibly to allow them to gain access to the Slytherins' common room and get some useful information out of Malfoy it would also appear when examined more closely that Hermione was also quite enthusiastic about creating the potion for it's own sake to gain knowledge.
The time turner in Prisoner of Azkeban. Though officially sanctioned and ultimately extremely useful in the rescue of Buckbeak and Sirius the time turner was procured for no more noble a reason than to allow Hermione an advantage that other students didn't have, once again a means to gain knowledge for it's own sake.
Hitting Malfoy in Prisoner of Azkeban. Initially seemingly justified and justifiable she followed this up with a threat that could have been much more damaging than a mere slap of the face. If it weren't for Harry and Ron she may well have carried this out.
The trapping of Rita in Goblet of Fire and her subsequent blackmailing there and in Order of the Phoenix. Though the motivations and results of these actions appeared positive they were in reality a quite spiteful and nasty response to an attack on both herself and her friends. Justifiable perhaps but still a forceful response. It's quite clear by now that Hermione isn't a nice girl to get brassed off.
Marietta. At the end of the book the damage had been done and leaving Marietta disfigured had become quite redundant. Despite this Hermione made no attempt to reverse the jinx or even showed any regret over her actions. Understandable and initially justifiable but in the long term really necessary?

And then we get to Half Blood Prince where we again see similar actions and behaviours but the difference now is that with her usual role as information provider and 'brains of the operation' absent because of Dumbledore's direct involvement with Harry there are now no positive consequences or noble motives to disguise her actions so we get to see them for the first time in their full light, naked and unvarnished.

Again I'll say that none of this necessarily makes her a nasty or an evil person, just a regular human being with flaws like the rest of us and to me that makes her character all the more believable and endearing for it.

*In Conclusion: This remains my opinion only, make of it what you will.*

I share this opinion. And I would point out with Marietta that we also see her in HBP on the train and she is still disfigured and Hermione still makes no attempt to reverse this - and Harry smirks when he sees her.

Hermione very clearly has a nasty temper and is not above acting on that temper. I think this is one of the reasons she tries to maintain such tight control over herself.

But I don't think any of these things make her evil or even a terrible person. She's just a normal teenage girl in that regard. She's going to make mistakes as she grows up.

She cheated McClaggen out a chance to be keeper. This is so inconsistent with her behavior in the first five books it really made me ill to read such nonsense. In the first five books she never used her considerable magicial talents to harm another (without at least a justifiable reason). . . and she certainly harmed McClaggen. To claim that Hermione confounded McClaggen for any reason other than to help Ron is just, in my understanding, wrong.

To say the canary attack was a reasonable response is bizarre. Physically abuse has no justification. So what if Ron was acting like a prat. . . ?. . .Her response was demented and was something she would have never done to her friends at any point during the first five books.As others brilliantly pointed out, when Hermione was able to punch Draco, hex Marietta, keep Rita in a jar, use Timeturner to have more time to learn and steal things from Snape's office, that was fine. I sense here a distinct outrage that this time she did such things because of RON. Which is another Harmony argument in (poor) disguise.

Mzimba, Lizo. Transcript of interview with J.K. Rowling, BBC Newsround, Fall 2000


Is this your idea of Hermione lightening up as you've said before? She didn't seem that light to me.
No, she will! She's a good girl. I agree with you-- she's not that light in this book. But people made the mistake of assuming that my answers referred to Book Four. There are another three books to go. But in some ways-- she's more of a rule breaker now. Where her convictions are concerned, she's prepared to do stuff that she's really not supposed to do. But she will lighten up. I promise you. I did.Thanks for the quote. It looks like it was just after GoF was published and it shows that Hermione started treating rules lightly much earlier than in HBP or GoF. First example is in CoS when she brews Polyjuice Potion. Since then, she keeps breaking rules when it's necessary/convenient/when she feels need.

FIrst of all determining whether Harry's use of the Prince's book constituted cheating is absolutely relevant to this thread. It goes directly to whether or not Hermoine's behavior is consistent with her behavior in the first five books and if she has indeed changed. I think to deny part of the argument is sticking your heads in the sand, but hey, that's just me, I would rather look at the entire argument instead of just the parts that fit with my paradigm of the story. So once again, since any notion that Harry's use of the Prince's book is cheating is an irrational response, and a response the rational Hermione of books 1-5 would not have made, her response verifies she has changed and her actions are not consistant with her character in the first five books.

I think I understand the distinction you're trying to make. Are you saying that discussing whether Hermione's conclusion that Harry was cheating is reasonable? You're not trying to argue whether we as readers consider his behavior to be cheating, right? Instead you're trying to debate whether Hermione's determination is consistent with her character.

Well, I'm not sure we have enough information to discuss that. We don't know Hermione's motivations that lead her to conclude that Harry's cheating, so it's not possible to debate whether she's being reasonable or consistent. We have to accept as given the fact that JKR wrote Hermione as if she (Hermione) considers Harry's behavior to be cheating, and judge her subsequent actions accordingly.

Whether or not Hermione's judgment of Harry's behavior is rational brings in your own opinion that it constitutes cheating. I think it's important to acknowledge that there is no brightline test to decide that, and each one of us will have their own opinion, and that opinion definitely colours our analysis of how Hermione handled herself. We just don't have enough information about Hermione's thought process to decide whether her conclusion was rational. I will say that Harry's conscience wasn't entirely clear on this - he was defensive when she confronted him, and there were several occasions that he felt guilty about what he was doing or tried to hide his book.

Hermione has always been the character I felt more empathy for than most of the other characters, and this sort of threw me, as the Potions was very like Hermione, always used to working her hardest and reaping the rewards, although, suddenly Harry is better than her with no effort at all, and that grates with her so much. But then...Ron starts seeing Lavender, and she sends a flock of birds to peck at him...which doesn't seem like a Hermione-ish thing to do at all...but I think she doesn't know what to do. Suddenly everything seems to be going out of control, and I don't think Hermione can handle it, she's used to being top of the class, she's used to being in CONTROL.
I think Hermione's problem, is that she's no longer in much control of what's happening. I think she's a bit of a control freak, to be honest.

Hermione has always been the character I felt more empathy for than most of the other characters, and this sort of threw me, as the Potions was very like Hermione, always used to working her hardest and reaping the rewards, although, suddenly Harry is better than her with no effort at all, and that grates with her so much. But then...Ron starts seeing Lavender, and she sends a flock of birds to peck at him...which doesn't seem like a Hermione-ish thing to do at all...but I think she doesn't know what to do. Suddenly everything seems to be going out of control, and I don't think Hermione can handle it, she's used to being top of the class, she's used to being in CONTROL.
I think Hermione's problem, is that she's no longer in much control of what's happening. I think she's a bit of a control freak, to be honest.

I agree. Hermione has always been a little insecure, and she compensates for that by exercising absolute control over herself and her environment. In book 6 she loses some of that control, and it causes her insecurities to be more apparent. It's a good development for her because she needs to learn it's OK to let go a little bit - it's OK to be a little bit infallible.

I think that Hermione's 'character change' is just due to her growing up. But still, I think that these petty characteristics of hers were present before HBP, she just starts to really show a side of her that we'd only ever caught glimpses of. For me, Hermione's character change did not come suddenly in HBP, but gradually over the course of all six books. This is perfectly natural and is well-represented by J K, as she's merely writing about a young girl going through teenage. I believe that her love for Ron and the way he doesn't recognise that love affects her as well, the more she loves him, the more angry she becomes that he doesn't know she loves him, whereas she too is being unobservant by not realising that her love is not unrequited.
I dunno, this is just my opinion. I just think that Hermione has gradually become the character she is today, and she will continue to grow as a character and as a person in the next, and final, book.

Hermione is obviously a self-centered, selfish character. This has been proven time and time again. For example, when she failed to save Ron from the Devil's Snare in book 1, or when she openly encouraged Harry to drug Ron with the felix felicis in book 6. It seems perfectly obvious to me that she is the mastermind behind everything in the books. And let's not forget the most obvious fact, she's a witch, now that's canon

Hermione has always tended to lose her head whenever she lost control of a situation. One of the best early examples in the series is in POA with the time turner. She failed to anticipate the workload, and the situation became out of hand. As the year went on, she became so overwelmed with the work, she became shrill and snappish towards everyone around her.

I agree, you definetely start to see more of this very snappish and strained Hermione throughout the series, but I also agree that some characteristics of her are less than likeable, but every one has them (as much as they try to disspell that fact)

Hermiones charecter has definately changed over the course of the books. Her charecter has definately changed, and to really see it. You have to read the whole series.

Yeah, but, why start in the middle of the series anyway? It makes no sense without reading them all...

I agree. Hermione has always been a little insecure, and she compensates for that by exercising absolute control over herself and her environment. In book 6 she loses some of that control, and it causes her insecurities to be more apparent. It's a good development for her because she needs to learn it's OK to let go a little bit - it's OK to be a little bit infallible.

I agree as well. And, as Alonna pointed out, we see this to a milder degree in POA when she was using the time turner. It became too much for her to handle and, as she lost control of it, her behavior changed accordingly. She started snapping at everyone and she was overemotional. I think it was important for Hermione to learn that she cannot control everything and that it's okay to relax and just let things happen sometimes.

As for her attitude on cheating, I think you're right there as well. Jo has given us enough information about Hermione for us to understand what she views as cheating but not enough to ascertain why she feels that way. We know that she would never let Harry or Ron copy her homework - or look at her essays even when they had done most of the work on their own - that she disapproves of them copying off of each other and making up things for their divination homework. We know that she believes in doing your own work and research and that she does not like to stray from the "approved" method. But, since Jo has chosen not to include anything in the books regarding Hermione's life with her family or the years before she came to Hogwarts, we have no idea why she feels that way - or even what gives her that drive in being the best student and working so hard to earn that.

Changed? Is that the question of this thread?

*Looks at title*

Ya' think, there, Wilbur?

:lol:

Deevo- fantastic post.

I agree about her having control issues. I've said this many times- this is full out war for the first time in the student's lives. Pressure is high and everyone is afraid and stressed, even though they are trying to live normally. Everyone will manifest the effects in different ways. Hermione will stress more because she knows she can not control this monster that's overshadowing (and in some cases, taking) their lives, and will overreact to normal situations. It's simple psychology.

(I think this also exacerbates Ron's insecurities- instead of facing the simple normal challenges of equalling his brothers and doing well in school and Quiddich, he's facing a world with a life and death struggle to keep is loved ones alive. He has to be terrified that a mistake on his part will cost them dearly. Of course his fears will be exaggerated.

Harry is probably the only one not suffering from this dichotomy, because while war is taking over everyone's world, in a real way, it is his world. In a way, he was shaped by war for war. They are entering alien territory, while he is familiar with it. Now the wizarding world (aside from a few, like the Order) is beginning to understand the world Harry has always lived in.

Ron and Hermione are the closest to understanding this- and him- but book 6 showed that the transition was still a shock. At the end, however, they were there, 'in Harry's world' of war with him. )

I believe that her love for Ron and the way he doesn't recognise that love affects her as well, the more she loves him, the more angry she becomes that he doesn't know she loves him, whereas she too is being unobservant by not realising that her love is not unrequited.

to me it seems like ron and hermione are just going around in circles. if one hears or sees somthing that makes them jealous then they try to get back at the other by making them jealous. then they keep that up until something happens to bring them back together. but i think they both know they like each other.

She's in love. People turn a little nutters when that happens. She's also growing up, and has relaxed a bit about rules and stuff. I kinda like the new Hermione!

I AGree! I like the new Hermione as well and I thought it was about bloody time that she starts to enjoy life and not stick to the rules so much. I too was a lot like Hermione when I was younger: always following the rules and guidlines that were placed in front of me and hardly ever questioned a thing. But as I grew up I started to realise that I didn't agree with some of the rules or I simply didn't want to do it any more. Hermione is, in fact, growing up and she's beginning to question the people around her, life and authority. Also think about what she sees going on in the wizarding world.

Imagine, you're a teenager who is so used to following rules and listening to authority and then you see your own government can't even handle a simple job which you and your teenage friends have done themselves. How would you feel about rules and authority after that??

And as for Hermione sending the birds after Ron, or making him jealous by taking someone else to the party - well deserved indeed!! Every girl on the face of this earth has done something like this once before, so don't act that hermione has "sunken to their level" because she is a girl and that's just what girls do. Sometimes you have to get even and make the guy jealous, or else he may never realise just what he's missing out on.

Bravo Hermione, Bravo!

I don't think Hermione and Ron are made for each other. Harry and Hermione are. I mean, they are both intelligent and both ready to defend! Well, as for poor old ron - he just sticks out like a sore thumb!

Note to Mods: I looked all over to see if this was discussed anywhere and couldn't find anything. But if you feel its inappropriate, then I'm sorry for troubling you.

Was it just me, or did Hermione seem...different in this book?

In all of the other books she has never failed to listen to what Harry has to say nor flagrantly refused to help Hagrid. All of a sudden she's not listening to anything Harry has to say (and he was right this time, go figure) and refused to go to Aragog's burial. Does none of this seem strange to anyone else?

Think about Hermione in previous books. She was always the mature, compassionate, sometimes nagging, but always righteous kind of person. I mean, remember how she was as a Prefect in OotP? But now she's confunding McLaggen and then asking him to Slughorn's party in order to make a guy jealous? And pelting canaries at Ron because he's kissing another girl? This is the petty behaviour that I've grown to expect from the likes of Lavendar or Parvati or Cho or maybe even Ginny...but Hermione? I know that that seems like something some girls would do but I never thought Hermione would ever...I dunno...sink that low.

I know that Hermione was very jealous of Lavendar about the whole Ron thing, but Hermione has always been rather guarded with her emotions. I feel that she could have handled the situation much better than she did.

I dunno. She just seemed really different to me in this book. Does anyone else think so?

The Answer: Hooray for crazy hormones :clap:

She has always been breaking rules from the start

1st book: Lies about the troll, helps get Norbert to Charlie, goes to the third floor corrider.

2nd book: Brews Polyjuice Potion

3rd book: Uses Time Turner to rescue Sirius and Buckbeak, slaps Malfoy

4th book: Helps Harry with the tasks, blackmails Rita

5th book: Blackmails Rita, helps Harry talk to Sirius, invents the D.A., Leads Umbridge into the Forest

6th book: Torments Ron, pelts him with Canaries, Confounds McLaggen.

In the first five books, all the rule-breaking she does helps other people, but in the sixth book, it is all to get Ron to notice her. It gets easier as she does it more.

I don't think Hermione and Ron are made for each other. Harry and Hermione are. I mean, they are both intelligent and both ready to defend! Well, as for poor old ron - he just sticks out like a sore thumb!

Ron is every bit as intelligent as Harry - they got virtually the same grades on their O.W.L.s though Harry beat him out in DADA. And Ron is ready to defend all the time as well. Time and time again, he defends Hermione against Draco's insults. He is the one willing to sacrifice his life when they were trying to save the Stone. Ron is the one who stood up on a broken leg and told Sirius he would have to kill them if he was going to kill Harry. Ron is absolutely equal to Harry and Hermione and is quite worthy of Hermione's affections.

Well I just think thier not alike, thats all

Let's not turn this thread into a debate of H/Hr vs R/Hr, please :)

to me it seems like ron and hermione are just going around in circles. if one hears or sees somthing that makes them jealous then they try to get back at the other by making them jealous. then they keep that up until something happens to bring them back together. but i think they both know they like each other.
Yes but something did happen to break the cycle when Ron was poisoned.

Ron realised what he had with Lavender wasn't what he was looking for.
Hermione realised that her friendship with Ron outweighed any other consideration and reacted accordingly.


You might find the Hermione and Ron - Where to from here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=86724) thread of interest in this regard.

One word-homones and the pressure of what is happening around her with the Death Eaters and Voldemort.

I didn't really notice the change in Hermione to be honest.

I didn't really notice the change in Hermione to be honest.

Neither did I. They have all grown up and matured over the course of the series but their behaviors and actions are consistent with the previous books. Hermione didn't do anything in HBP that she hasn't done in previous books. She retaliated against McLaggen for making fun of Ron and Ginny - that is comparable to her retaliation against Malfoy for making fun of Hagrid and her retaliation against Rita for making fun of her and causing her to get all that hate mail - as well as Rita's stories about Hagrid and Harry.

Even her actions with Ron have some correlation in the previous books. She showed anger towards Fleur and Padma in GOF - both when Ron paid attention to them and when they paid attention to Ron. The only difference is that she is now faced with a more extreme situation - Fleur and Padma weren't real threats - they were not interested in dating Ron. In HBP, Ron actually gets a girlfriend. Hermione handles it badly (as does Ron) but her reaction was predictable based on the previous books.

Note to Mods: I looked all over to see if this was discussed anywhere and couldn't find anything. But if you feel its inappropriate, then I'm sorry for troubling you.

Was it just me, or did Hermione seem...different in this book?

In all of the other books she has never failed to listen to what Harry has to say nor flagrantly refused to help Hagrid. All of a sudden she's not listening to anything Harry has to say (and he was right this time, go figure) and refused to go to Aragog's burial. Does none of this seem strange to anyone else?

Think about Hermione in previous books. She was always the mature, compassionate, sometimes nagging, but always righteous kind of person. I mean, remember how she was as a Prefect in OotP? But now she's confunding McLaggen and then asking him to Slughorn's party in order to make a guy jealous? And pelting canaries at Ron because he's kissing another girl? This is the petty behaviour that I've grown to expect from the likes of Lavendar or Parvati or Cho or maybe even Ginny...but Hermione? I know that that seems like something some girls would do but I never thought Hermione would ever...I dunno...sink that low.

I know that Hermione was very jealous of Lavendar about the whole Ron thing, but Hermione has always been rather guarded with her emotions. I feel that she could have handled the situation much better than she did.

I dunno. She just seemed really different to me in this book. Does anyone else think so?

Yeah I noticed that too. But I would say it seems Jo wants us to realize that no one is perfect. Not even perfect prefect Hermione (gosh that sounds so much like Percy, isn't it?). Anyone wanna ship Percy - Hermione? :lol: Nah!! Just kidding, just kidding (have to say this to avoid the wrath of current Harry/Ron - Hermione shippers.)

__________________________________
"Wannagoballwimme?" Harry.
"Yeah okay!!" replies Madam Pince.

Well, I thought that there was a HUGE difference in Hermione between the second (CoS) and third (PoA) books. I really liked this Hermione better because she wasn't such of a know-it-all as she was in the first and second books. Now it has come to the "personality change" between the fifth and sixth book. Yes, I noticed a drastic change in Hermione's attitude towards Hagrid, Ron, and mainly, Harry. Hmmmmm... better give this more thought.

Note to Mods: I looked all over to see if this was discussed anywhere and couldn't find anything. But if you feel its inappropriate, then I'm sorry for troubling you.

Was it just me, or did Hermione seem...different in this book?

In all of the other books she has never failed to listen to what Harry has to say nor flagrantly refused to help Hagrid. All of a sudden she's not listening to anything Harry has to say (and he was right this time, go figure) and refused to go to Aragog's burial. Does none of this seem strange to anyone else?

Think about Hermione in previous books. She was always the mature, compassionate, sometimes nagging, but always righteous kind of person. I mean, remember how she was as a Prefect in OotP? But now she's confunding McLaggen and then asking him to Slughorn's party in order to make a guy jealous? And pelting canaries at Ron because he's kissing another girl? This is the petty behaviour that I've grown to expect from the likes of Lavendar or Parvati or Cho or maybe even Ginny...but Hermione? I know that that seems like something some girls would do but I never thought Hermione would ever...I dunno...sink that low.

I know that Hermione was very jealous of Lavendar about the whole Ron thing, but Hermione has always been rather guarded with her emotions. I feel that she could have handled the situation much better than she did.

I dunno. She just seemed really different to me in this book. Does anyone else think so?


Yeah, I did notice the difference. All I can say is thank goodness!:D I didn't think she was ever going to show some emotions. It's about time. Now maybe she and Ron can get down to some serious snogging!!!:lol:

On a more serious note I am glad she is finally melting that ice. Her characture is acting more normal now. It is an emotional time for most wizards. Whether the emotion is fear, sadness, love, anger or even jealousy you need to let it out one way or another. She just bottled everything up until she all but exploded!:lol:

She's definately changed, and I've realised that after reading the third book. She's more rebellious than perhaps she would be in the first year. Having friends like Harry and Ron have maybe helped her slightly to think that rule breaking isn't always bad if it's done for the right reason.

Sigh... hormones. I actually think Ron and Hermione were trying to make each other jealous because they like each other!

She did seem much different and it bothered me. She did not seem as muture as she did in books earlier, even the first one. It was rather disturbing for her to have changed so much. Next thing we know she'll be in cohootswith malfoy(i doubt this). I think it was mostly because of Ron though

Hermione is just a girl growing up and is starting to get jealous of things she may not have noticed before. What can you say about that everyone has to grow up and people do it differently such as Ron is gradually, Harry had to straight away and Hermione has in the OoTP. We don't really see the boys growing up as much as her and because they are boys they grew up differently than her.

On a more serious note I am glad she is finally melting that ice. Her characture is acting more normal now. It is an emotional time for most wizards. Whether the emotion is fear, sadness, love, anger or even jealousy you need to let it out one way or another. She just bottled everything up until she all but exploded!:lol:

That's an interesting view on it - I think you have a good point. Hermione has always kept her emotions bottled up. I think that's why, when we do see her lose her temper, it's such a major thing.

Overall, I think her character has been consistent throughout the series. She was more emotional in HBP but Hermione has never had to face those things before. I think her behavior was predictable based on the previous books.

Overall, I think her character has been consistent throughout the series. She was more emotional in HBP but Hermione has never had to face those things before. I think her behavior was predictable based on the previous books.

i agree - if you think about it, harry changed loads from book 4 to book 5, becoming more moody. people develop at different times, and this was hermione developing. i liked the way she was - if i had loved ron for as long as her (which actually, come to think of it, i have...:))i would treat him the same. besides, he was trying to make her jealous with lav-lav.
at the end of the day, she is just turned 17. that is basically the same age as me. and i know for a fact that i havent quite grown out of stuff like this yet - we are all immature inside. hermione just bottled it up longer.

Well I just think thier not alike, thats all
opposites attract

Harry/Ron - Hermione shippers.
omg. that scared me at first glance. i wasn't really paying attention and it almost looked like it said Harry/Ron shippers. :rotfl:

She did seem much different and it bothered me. She did not seem as muture as she did in books earlier, even the first one. It was rather disturbing for her to have changed so much. Next thing we know she'll be in cohootswith malfoy(i doubt this). I think it was mostly because of Ron thoughShe seemd the same to me, for the most part. She was still a bookworm, still studied constantly, still a teacher's pet, still had that jealous streak about her where Ron was concerned, and still showed that it bothered her whenever someone does better than her academically (which we saw in either OotP [or either early in HBP before the whole potions thing] with how she was when talking about Defense Against the Dark Arts, and how Harry probably got a better mark, or something like that).

The main difference I saw was that all of the traits above, were exaggerated and more obvious in comparison to the earlier books.

We all know that Hermione likes Ron, but we also know that she's waiting around on him. We also know that at times, Hermione seems to show no interest in Ron, and seems to try very hard to not let that side of her show. Up until HBP, she never had a threat of losing Ron to another girl, because he, himself, never seemed completely interested in doing so.

Ron finally gets a gf, therefore, Hermione is threatened, and her tendency to be jealous was just made more obvious compared to the earlier books. In Goblet of Fire, she seemed to show a bit of jealousy over Ron's fawning over Fleur and also for that book, she seemed rather bothered by the attention Padma was giving Ron after the second task of the tournament. What'd she do? She put Ron in his place right in front of Padma. She got rid of the threat. Fleur was never a real threat, as Fleur wouldn't go for Ron, but, she always seemed to get particularly annoyed at Ron whenever Fleur was mentioned or whatever.

Hermione's jealousy got out of hand because she was thrown into a situation she'd never been in before and to be honest, as annoying as tihs got, I 'm glad JKR included this. One can't be composed and "mature" all of the time. Hermione is still a kid, afterall, and will have her times where she may come across as immature. In the romance department, due to lack of experience anyway, she's always come across as "immature" to me. Ron too.

Well I just think thier not alike, thats allOf course they're not alike, they're different people.:p

Seriously, though, the two are a bit more alike than people give them credit for. Academically, no, they aren't alike in any way, but the same applies to Harry in this regard too. Academically, Harry is more so on Ron's level. No character, that's been mentioned anyway, is on the same level as Hermione school wise.

Now, similarities, both are pretty much open, in my opinion. You can tell that just by the way they communicate with one another. Mostly through that same old "bickering dynamic". It may be annoying to others, but it must be ideal to them, since the two bicker even when they are agreeing with one another.

I noticed her change slightly, but it didn't particularly bother me. She hasn't changed completely; I just think it's because she's getting older and she's in love. She's showing more emotions and I think that's good, we should be praising JKR for her ability to bring out something else in a character, not critisicing (sp?) it. Hermione couldn't stay the same all throughout the books, it would get boring. She has become more like a girl should be (if that makes sense), and instead of being obssessed with books and schoolwork (even though she still is), she's become more interested in boys etc.

And everything that SSJ_Jup81 said, I completely agree with. :tu: :clap: :tu:

I think she changed, yes, but I don't think her behavior was out of character. As someone pointed out before, we've seen these changes in Hermione already...look at her character between CoS and PoA...she came into herself a lot more between these books. Sure, in this book she's a bit more moody, but that's typical of a teenager who's really just beginning to understand that the feelings she's been having are feelings of love. I know that when I was 17 (not so long ago) there were plenty of times when I would have loved to set a flock of angry canaries on a boy or two. It happens.

As for her ignoring Harry's suspicions of Draco...how many times have they had suspicions like these before, and how often have they been right? I think she was trying to learn from the mistakes they made in the past and get Harry to focus on what she saw as more pressing matters. It's not really illogical when you think about it.

I still love Hermione, I've loved her throughout all the books. I thought she was more real than ever in HBP. She's finally dealing with teenagedom and all its turmoils instead of being so mature all the time...it's about time she let herself be a teenager...we've really only seen her act as one a handful of times.

She's a teenager. She obviously likes Ron, too.

Oh yes, I noticed the change.:agree:

I suppose her not listening to Harry was somewhat logical though as, just the year before, she not only listened to him but she followed him senselessly into a battle that resulted in the death of Harry's godfather. While she promised that she'd help save Sirius if he was proven to be missing from Grimmauld Place, I don't think she felt entirely certain that, even if he was being tortured by Voldemort, that they, of all people, could save him.

He's also been harping on Snape since year one and she's always maintained that she trusts him because Dumbledore does. I suppose she had probably had enough of his Snape rantings by year six. As for Draco, she almost certainly doubted that Voldemort would take in a 16 year old as a Death Eater which was, again, logical. She didn't know about the underlying plan so all she'd hear is "Draco is a Death Eater." and would subsequently think "Why would he be?" While we know why Voldemort would do such a thing, she didn't so, Hermione being Miss. Rationality and all, would dismiss his claims until proven otherwise.

As for Aragog...the only way I can explain her reaction to his death is to say that that's a small part of old Hermione morphing into McGonagall.:lol: She knows the security around the castle is tighter and is aware of Aragog's love of humans for brunch. She not only sees it as risky but she sees it as pointless not unlike Ron and, at one point, Harry himself.

"Harry, you can't be thinking of going," said Hermione. "It's such a pointless thing to get detention for."

Harry sighed. "Yeah, I know," he said. "I s'pose Hagrid'll have to bury Aragog without us."

And, finally, her love struggles...:lol: Love makes you do crazy things...I believe it's even been proven that it literally makes you "dumber". While Hermione was slightly guarded before (Her love for Ron being what she preferred to guard.), things have changed. Ron is no longer the goofy, awkward, "friend of Harry Potter" who couldn't get a girl to look his way if he set his hair on fire and ran around squawking like a chicken. Now, someone is noticing him and Hermione's "territory" has come under attack. Hey, a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do.:evil:

Oh yes, I noticed the change.:agree:

I suppose her not listening to Harry was somewhat logical though as, just the year before, she not only listened to him but she followed him senselessly into a battle that resulted in the death of Harry's godfather. While she promised that she'd help save Sirius if he was proven to be missing from Grimmauld Place, I don't think she felt entirely certain that, even if he was being tortured by Voldemort, that they, of all people, could save him.

He's also been harping on Snape since year one and she's always maintained that she trusts him because Dumbledore does. I suppose she had probably had enough of his Snape rantings by year six. As for Draco, she almost certainly doubted that Voldemort would take in a 16 year old as a Death Eater which was, again, logical. She didn't know about the underlying plan so all she'd hear is "Draco is a Death Eater." and would subsequently think "Why would he be?" While we know why Voldemort would do such a thing, she didn't so, Hermione being Miss. Rationality and all, would dismiss his claims until proven otherwise.

Excellent points. :tu:

Most of the time, Hermione is praised for being rational and logical. And that is exactly what she was in HBP regarding Malfoy and Snape. It didn't make sense that Malfoy would be made a Death Eater at 16 and none of them realized it would have been done as a punishment for Lucius for his failure. And Draco has never done anything that would be sufficient to support that claim. He has always just been a cowardly bully that they continually got the best of. Why would Hermione see him as a threat? Even Ron had doubts about Harry's suspicions. As for Snape - Harry and Ron always suspected Snape of something and kept being proved wrong. Hermione put her faith in Dumbledore's judgement.

The events at the DoM would be a huge factor in that as well. Hermione almost died because she didn't follow her instincts there - and she was right about it being a trap.

As for Aragog...the only way I can explain her reaction to his death is to say that that's a small part of old Hermione morphing into McGonagall.:lol: She knows the security around the castle is tighter and is aware of Aragog's love of humans for brunch. She not only sees it as risky but she sees it as pointless not unlike Ron and, at one point, Harry himself.

"Harry, you can't be thinking of going," said Hermione. "It's such a pointless thing to get detention for."

Harry sighed. "Yeah, I know," he said. "I s'pose Hagrid'll have to bury Aragog without us."

Exactly. I felt that this showed how much the three of them have matured. As bad as they felt for Hagrid, they weren't willing to break the rules just to bury Aragog. And Hermione pointed out - it would have been different if it were a matter of saving his life. She would have been all for it if that had been the case. I felt their reluctance to go to Aragog's funeral was realistic - particularly for Ron and Harry since Aragog was going to let his "children" eat them.

And you also have to consider the trouble that Hagrid has caused them - even though he never meant to. In PS/SS, the lost 150 points for Gryffindor and got detention for helping him get rid of Norbert - plus Ron's hand was bitten in the process and that was a severe injury. In COS, Aragog nearly killed Ron and Harry. In OOTP, he asked them to care for Grawp if he was fired - something that could have gotten them killed if they had actually had to do it.

So, I saw it as a sign of maturity on their part. They love Hagrid and he is their friend but they have learned that sometimes you have to tell your friends "no". It was wrong of Hagrid to ask them to break rules so he could bury Aragog at sunset. He knew about the security measures and what they would be risking. He could have buried Aragog earlier in the day so they could come without breaking any rules. And they knew that they could go down the next day and give him comfort - when they wouldn't be breaking any rules.

And, finally, her love struggles...:lol: Love makes you do crazy things...I believe it's even been proven that it literally makes you "dumber". While Hermione was slightly guarded before (Her love for Ron being what she preferred to guard.), things have changed. Ron is no longer the goofy, awkward, "friend of Harry Potter" who couldn't get a girl to look his way if he set his hair on fire and ran around squawking like a chicken. Now, someone is noticing him and Hermione's "territory" has come under attack. Hey, a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do.:evil:

Exactly! :agree:

Not only was this not out of character for her - it was predicted. Hermione demonstrated jealousy against Fleur, Padma, and even Madame Rosmerta by showing anger. She frowned - looked furious - snapped at Ron. But none of those situations were real "threats". Fleur had no interest in Ron at all. Padma only showed interest after the second task when Ron got some fame for being a "victim" to save and Hermione shut that down quick by making sure Padma knew what really happened. Madame Rosmerta was never a real threat - just a teenage boy crushing on an attractive older woman.

In HBP, she is faced with real competition. Ron had a real girlfriend - someone who paid attention to him, flirted with him, and complimented him. And, not only was it someone in their own house, it was her dormmate - she had to share a room with Lavender. Plus the way the whole thing went down would have been very confusing for her because she never found out why Ron got upset with her in the first place. One minute, things were going well - she had a date with Ron. The next, Ron was upset with her and snogging Lavender and she had no clue as to what happened in between.

Love can make people change from night to day. As in the case of Hermione, she probably got a little over the top emotional about the whole Ron thing. Her actions (taking McLaggen to the party, the canary thing) were probably NOT the best of choices. But still remember, she's a bookworm at heart, and probably did not partake in many "girl" discussions with Parvati or Lavender, except perhaps Ginny. Maybe she had a limited number of ideas of how to get revenge at Ron, so she used the ones she had. Her lack, or at least of what we know, of interaction with people on the issue of love/romance maybe gave her a narrowminded view of how and what people should do. Which seems reasonable but odd at the same time. Wasn't she the one who helped Harry understand Cho's feelings in OotP? Unless she, like many other people, are extremely understanding of other people's emotions, but cannot understand or channel her own feelings.


And as for her temper with Harry's "gift" in Potions, her lack of interest in Draco-is-a-Death-Eater theory ...

Originally Posted by Kirley
Does anyone remember in OoTP how Harry became kind of a very angry person and there was lots of shouting and random useless accusing arguments? Basically my point is kids grow up and they nearly always go through some sort of crazy phase (think about it, you had one too).

I think Kirley is absolutely right. I wasn't so keen on the OotP Harry. He had major anger management issues, and it's more or less the same parallel we can draw with Hermione. OotP was Harry's turn to throw a few tantrums around. He had a reason to, with being locked up and shut out. Now, in HBP, Hermione's chance to get emotional came when Ron and her engage in a battle of the hearts.

At the core of Hermione though, I don't think she underwent major character changes, as she's still very loyal to Harry and her friendships, and still trusts Harry's judgements.

Well, she has always hated when Ron and Harry slack off, and using the HBP potion book was a way to slack off and cheat, which she would hate. Also, most people who care about their academics hate it when someone who cheats get better grades then they do.

True. But how many times did Hermione allow Ron and Harry to copy her homework? Many would consider this cheating. I suppose it comes down to what a person considers "cheating". I'm not so sure I consider it cheating to follow the notes of someone who previously owned the book.

Hermione being jealous of Harry for his Potions grades reminds me a bit of when Ron was made a prefect. Harry was clearly jealous of Ron. Would it have killed him to be a bit happy for his best friend?

True. But how many times did Hermione allow Ron and Harry to copy her homework? Many would consider this cheating. I suppose it comes down to what a person considers "cheating". I'm not so sure I consider it cheating to follow the notes of someone who previously owned the book.

Hermione being jealous of Harry for his Potions grades reminds me a bit of when Ron was made a prefect. Harry was clearly jealous of Ron. Would it have killed him to be a bit happy for his best friend?

I believe that one of the main problems Hermione had with the book was that because of it, not only did Harry stop relying on her when it came to Potions, he even surpassed her. Hermione enjoys the feeling of being needed, and the Potions book took away some of that.

True. But how many times did Hermione allow Ron and Harry to copy her homework? Many would consider this cheating. I suppose it comes down to what a person considers "cheating". I'm not so sure I consider it cheating to follow the notes of someone who previously owned the book.

Hermione being jealous of Harry for his Potions grades reminds me a bit of when Ron was made a prefect. Harry was clearly jealous of Ron. Would it have killed him to be a bit happy for his best friend?

Hermione has never let Harry and Ron copy her homework. That is a point that has been emphasized repeatedly throughout the series. She will go over their homework after they have done the work themselves and correct it for them but she will never just let them copy it outright.

From Hermione's point of view, Harry was cheating with the potions book. Whether or not we agree with that ourselves is irrelevant. Hermione did consider it cheating. We even have a comparison. In OOTP, Hermione tells Harry that he did better than she did in DADA - he got the better grades. Now, it is clear that she is not happy about that but she is not angry with Harry over it and doesn't accuse him of cheating. She accepts that he is better at that subject because he did the work himself - he earned that grade.

It would have been out of character for Hermione not to be upset over Harry using that book because, to her, that would be cheating.

Shes going through pueberty, it's not her fault shes all hormonal

I noticed. I just think that she was frustrated that Ron couldn't see that she liked him. It was fairly obvious that he liked her too, but the fact that he didn't do anything about it was just... frustrating again. I mean, I guess she felt like she was about to leave the school soon, only one year left, and I think she had a lot she wanted to do. Obviously her grades were top priority, and maybe she didn't want to blacken her record with so little time until she left? I don't know; I'm just guessing here. I would just say it was the mixture of feeling confusion at the fact that Ron liked her and she liked him back, but he wasn't doing anything, and the fact that she was nearing the end of her Hogwarts career. And being a teenage girl certainly adds to the situation. :lol:

Hermione has never let Harry and Ron copy her homework. That is a point that has been emphasized repeatedly throughout the series. She will go over their homework after they have done the work themselves and correct it for them but she will never just let them copy it outright.

From Hermione's point of view, Harry was cheating with the potions book. Whether or not we agree with that ourselves is irrelevant. Hermione did consider it cheating. We even have a comparison. In OOTP, Hermione tells Harry that he did better than she did in DADA - he got the better grades. Now, it is clear that she is not happy about that but she is not angry with Harry over it and doesn't accuse him of cheating. She accepts that he is better at that subject because he did the work himself - he earned that grade.

It would have been out of character for Hermione not to be upset over Harry using that book because, to her, that would be cheating.

We'll have to agree to disagree. On page 255 from "Order of the Phoenix" -

"They should at least see what they're picking up," he said firmly. "Anyway..." He rolled up the parchment on which he had written the title of Shape's essay. "There's no point trying to finish this now, I can't do it without Hermione, I haven't got a clue what you're supposed to do with moonstones, have you?"

Finish it? Huh? He's written out the title! What's there to correct? (Granted, this isn't proof that she was actually going to write his essay for him but, clearly, he seemed fairly confident that she was going to help beyond correcting his work.)

On page 300 (also from "Order of the Phoenix") -

"Okay, write that down," Hermione said to Ron, pushing his essay and a sheet covered in her own writing back to Ron, "and then copy out this conclusion that I've written for you."

In addition to correcting mistakes he had made, she wrote out the conclusion for him. This was not his work. It was hers. She clearly wrote it out herself and told him to copy it.

I also have to respectfully disagree that our opinions do not count. It seems our opinions about the various issues presented in the books are what make up the messageboards on the net. Just my opinion.

I believe that one of the main problems Hermione had with the book was that because of it, not only did Harry stop relying on her when it came to Potions, he even surpassed her. Hermione enjoys the feeling of being needed, and the Potions book took away some of that.

Good point. I hadn't thought about the fact that the book was taking away her feelings of being needed.

We'll have to agree to disagree. On page 255 from "Order of the Phoenix" -

"They should at least see what they're picking up," he said firmly. "Anyway..." He rolled up the parchment on which he had written the title of Shape's essay. "There's no point trying to finish this now, I can't do it without Hermione, I haven't got a clue what you're supposed to do with moonstones, have you?"

Finish it? Huh? He's written out the title! What's there to correct? (Granted, this isn't proof that she was actually going to write his essay for him but, clearly, he seemed fairly confident that she was going to help beyond correcting his work.)

On page 300 (also from "Order of the Phoenix") -

"Okay, write that down," Hermione said to Ron, pushing his essay and a sheet covered in her own writing back to Ron, "and then copy out this conclusion that I've written for you."

In addition to correcting mistakes he had made, she wrote out the conclusion for him. This was not his work. It was hers. She clearly wrote it out herself and told him to copy it.

I also have to respectfully disagree that our opinions do not count. It seems our opinions about the various issues presented in the books are what make up the messageboards on the net. Just my opinion.

There is opinion and there are facts stated directly in canon.

Hermione was checking Harry and Ron’s Charms homework for them. She would never let them copy (“How will you learn?”), but by asking her to read it through, they got the right answers anyway.

“Hermione, let me read your composition,” said Ron desper-ately, checking his watch.

“No, I won’t,” said Hermione, suddenly severe. “You’ve had ten days to finish it — ”

“You can copy mine, if you like,” said Ron, labeling his last star with a flourish and shoving the chart toward Harry.

Hermione, who disapproved of copying, pursed her lips but didn’t say anything.

There was a pause and he added, in a slightly more anxious tone, ‘D’you think she meant it when she said we weren’t copying from her?”

“Yeah, I do,” said Harry. ‘Still, this is important, too, we’ve got to practise if we want to stay on the Quidditch team …”

Based on that, it is my opinion that Hermione would never let them outright copy directly from her work. She will help them - explain things to them - so they can do their own work. She will read through when they are finished doing their own work and make corrections and, on the one occasion, write a conclusion. But the conclusion was drawn from the main essay - the work that he had already done. She did not do any of the actual work on the essays for them or let them copy anything from her essay that was already completed. It was only after they had done their own work that she consented to look them over and correct them.

I base my opinion on what is clearly stated in the books - Hermione would never let them copy - Hermione disapproves of copying - Hermione tells them that she will not let them copy repeatedly - Hermione won't even let them look at her work as far as what is stated in the books. She will look over and correct their work but only after they have done the work themselves.

It is this strict rule of Hermione's that tells us that she would never approve of anyone using a book that had the "answers" written in it. It goes against everything she stands for.

This is also clarified by example. We have two examples of Harry doing better than Hermione. In OOTP, he finds out that he is better at DADA than she is - he got better grades than she did the only year they both sat the exam under a decent teacher. She was upset that she didn't get the best grade but she didn't begrudge Harry for it because she knew that he had earned it - he got it on his own without help. In HBP, Harry outperforms her in potions by - what she considers - cheating. In that case, she is upset with Harry because he doesn't deserve the praise that he is getting or the grades - in her opinion.

[QUOTE=I base my opinion on what is clearly stated in the books -
[/QUOTE]

As do I. I gave clear examples. As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

As do I. I gave clear examples. As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

We'll definitely have to agree to disagree because the examples you gave don't say anything about her letting them copy her work. The examples you gave show that they wanted her to help them - not that she would let them copy - and that she was willing to write a conclusion based on the work that they had already done - again not letting them copy her work.

There is a difference. And that is why I feel that her reaction to Harry using the potions book was completely in character for her. I can't imagine her reacting any other way to that.

And, just for the record, I'm not saying anything against anyone's opinion. I'm just stating why I don't agree - giving my opinion. :)

I don't think Hermione has really changed, but she has matured. (yes, there is a difference: to change would be to become a DE or something; to mature is to realize what she has always thought and felt.) For example, it's been obvious that Hermione subconsiously likes Ron ever since GoF, but she doesn't realize that she likes him until HBP. As someone already pointed out, she also knows when not to help Hagid: she doesn't run down to talk to hin after Aragog dies, which she certainly would have done in previous books- look at Buckbeak's hearing. This isn't because she no longer cares, but because she knows that the costs of getting caught are too much.

We'll definitely have to agree to disagree because the examples you gave don't say anything about her letting them copy her work.

Actually, they did. Particularly this one -

"Okay, write that down," Hermione said to Ron, pushing his essay and a sheet covered in her own writing back to Ron, "and then copy out this conclusion that I've written for you."

She not only allows Ron to copy her work, she actually instructs him to do just that. I read the quotes in your post. It seems to me that, with respect to this issue, what Hermione says and what she does are two different things.

You mentioned your views on cheating (or, maybe more acurately, why it was not a big deal for her to write out the conclusion to Ron's essay) so I'll throw in my views too. Clearly, there's room for disagreement because our views are drawn from our own educational backgrounds.

First, anyone can throw a bunch of facts onto paper. But if that person can't write a simple conclusory paragraph about that information, as Ron apparently couldn't (whether it's a summary or an analysis), then, clearly, that person doesn't really "get it", so to say. I'll go back to Hermione's "how will you learn?" statement. Anyone can take a bunch of facts out of a book and throw them onto the paper, but the real learning comes from being able to understand and process all of the information. That's why the introductory and final paragraph(s) are so important in a paper (particularly in an academic setting as Hogwarts is - the professor is going to get a good idea of whether a student truly understands the information by their opening and closing paragraphs).

Referencing her comment "how will you learn?" once again, why, when she "corrects" their papers does she supply them with the correct answers? They certainly aren't learning this way. They are going to learn much more if she were to tell them that maybe they had a fact wrong and then required that they look up the correct answer on their own. Or maybe advise them to re-word something rather than writing it herself, etc.

The other reason that I think it's wrong for her to write the conclusory paragraph for Ron comes from my own experiences also. They were very strict about plagiarism where I went to college. There was a note about it on every syllabus I was given for every class I took. A student who handed in a paper while telling the professor "Oh, by the way, my buddy wrote the last paragraph for me" would have been put on academic probation so fast it would have made their head spin. I don't even know what the policy was while I was in law school as, by the time I got there, the notion that plagiarism is unacceptable in any form was so ingrained that it wasn't even an issue. Don't get me wrong, I've been a member of a number of study groups in which my friends and I have helped each other out with problems, but, when I look back at the hundreds of papers I've written for my various professors, I can't think of even one case in which it would have been acceptable for a friend to write even a small portion of my paper.

Like you, I'm just giving my opinion. I think I've said about all I have to on this issue so this will be my last post on it. (However, I may exercise my birthright as a woman and change my mind on that!). I'll let you have the last word. :-)

Actually, they did. Particularly this one -

"Okay, write that down," Hermione said to Ron, pushing his essay and a sheet covered in her own writing back to Ron, "and then copy out this conclusion that I've written for you."

She not only allows Ron to copy her work, she actually instructs him to do just that. I read the quotes in your post. It seems to me that, with respect to this issue, what Hermione says and what she does are two different things.

You mentioned your views on cheating (or, maybe more acurately, why it was not a big deal for her to write out the conclusion to Ron's essay) so I'll throw in my views too. Clearly, there's room for disagreement because our views are drawn from our own educational backgrounds.

First, anyone can throw a bunch of facts onto paper. But if that person can't write a simple conclusory paragraph about that information, as Ron apparently couldn't (whether it's a summary or an analysis), then, clearly, that person doesn't really "get it", so to say. I'll go back to Hermione's "how will you learn?" statement. Anyone can take a bunch of facts out of a book and throw them onto the paper, but the real learning comes from being able to understand and process all of the information. That's why the introductory and final paragraph(s) are so important in a paper (particularly in an academic setting as Hogwarts is - the professor is going to get a good idea of whether a student truly understands the information by their opening and closing paragraphs).

Referencing her comment "how will you learn?" once again, why, when she "corrects" their papers does she supply them with the correct answers? They certainly aren't learning this way. They are going to learn much more if she were to tell them that maybe they had a fact wrong and then required that they look up the correct answer on their own. Or maybe advise them to re-word something rather than writing it herself, etc.

The other reason that I think it's wrong for her to write the conclusory paragraph for Ron comes from my own experiences also. They were very strict about plagiarism where I went to college. There was a note about it on every syllabus I was given for every class I took. A student who handed in a paper while telling the professor "Oh, by the way, my buddy wrote the last paragraph for me" would have been put on academic probation so fast it would have made their head spin. I don't even know what the policy was while I was in law school as, by the time I got there, the notion that plagiarism is unacceptable in any form was so ingrained that it wasn't even an issue. Don't get me wrong, I've been a member of a number of study groups in which my friends and I have helped each other out with problems, but, when I look back at the hundreds of papers I've written for my various professors, I can't think of even one case in which it would have been acceptable for a friend to write even a small portion of my paper.

Like you, I'm just giving my opinion. I think I've said about all I have to on this issue so this will be my last post on it. (However, I may exercise my birthright as a woman and change my mind on that!). I'll let you have the last word. :-)

Well, first off this was a really big deal for Hermione to do - it is the only time we see her do that in all six books and Ron and Harry are surprised by her doing it. Second, she didn't add any new information. A conclusion is just that - a summation of the information already in the essay. She just took the work that he had done and summed it up for him - basically, she reworded it for him. He did the actual work - she just helped him word it so that it sounded good. And, like I said before, this is the only time that she ever went that far in her corrections and it was a huge deal - Jo emphasized that fact. But even so, she still did not let them look at the essay she had written and copy from it.

What we do not see Hermione do - never have and never will, IMO - is hand over her homework and let them copy it outright. She always makes them do their own work. She will help them and she will correct their work - but she will not let them copy what she has done for herself.

The method that Hermione uses is standard for tutoring - my son's tutor does this with him all the time. He makes my son do the assignment on his own - he will answer questions and explain things along the way. When he is finished he looks over it and corrects it - then makes him redo it with the corrections.

But I think this is a significant point to understanding why Hermione reacted the way she did to Harry using the potions book. In her view, it was cheating. It was not Harry doing his own work and someone correcting him. It was Harry copying what someone else had done.

Being around the age the kids are in HBP (give or take a year), I have to say my opinion on this subject. In school, generally, although teachers highly look down upon in, copying notes is okey-dokey in the eyes of everyone else because sometimes people miss things, have an off day, and if you've already done it, why not help someone else?

Second, I have helped my friends form introductions or conclusions after they have formulated what they want to write in the body. The body is the true work - the introduction and conclusion are just there to ease you in and out of the normally fact-filled body of essays, research papers, and such. In fact, my English teacher encourages us helping each other form these parts, because she knows that a lot of people need help on it, and it's not the true work of the essay - the body is, because youi're not supposed to introduce any facts in the intro or conclusion - you're just suppose to summarize the main topic, that's all.

Copying a conclusion, the one pointed out, is only a summary of what has already been said, so only the wording, not the true work is that person's.

Also, with correcting the homework, friends help each other out on that all the time, just like they help each other study. that's all homework is - reinforcement of what has recently been learned, and a study tool. Helping each other on that - for example, going over someone's math problems and Harry's ice-not-mice incident with one of Jupiter's moons - is NOT cheating, not by teachers or students.

Note that all of the above is my first-hand opinion on the matter, having the same view on cheating as Hermione does (she's one half of the two making up my "perfect mix"!)

Also, to answer whether or not copying from the HBP's book is cheating - yes, it's called plagiarism. That's taking someone else's work as your own, in case you didn't know. It's a crime.

Does letting people copy notes or work really constitute a character change? Do her feelings for Ron really change the whole person? No. This is just a side of hermione that we've never seen before, because there was really no outlet for it before.

I think we saw a little of this new Hermione around the time of the Yule Ball in GoF. Recall:

Pg. 376, GoF - He climbed into the common room, and found Ron and Hermione having a blazing row. Standing ten feet apart, they were bellowing at each other, each scarlet in the face.
'Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't you?' yelled Hermione; her hair was coming down out of its elegant bun now, and her face was screwed up in anger.
'Oh yeah?' Ron yelled back. 'What's that?'
'Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!'
Ron mouthed mouthlessly like a goldfish out of water as Hermione turned on her heel and stormed up the girls' staircase to bed.

Look familiar? I wouldn't say that that was one of Hermione's most refined moments (not that it wasn't provoked). She lost her temper and shouted at a friend because of existing feelings. This was really just the groundwork for what happens in HBP, when feelings were even stronger.

Also, what's going on in HBP is quite different from what was going on in GoF. The wizarding world is threatened and dark; this, like 9/11, makes people cling more strongly to their relationships, and puts extra fear of losing that person into the equation. I don't think hermione's character changed, I think she was just reacting to the events going on around her.

Sure, there's also the point to made that Hermione had a likely sheltered life of studying and solitude before she came to Hogwarts, and this is probably just her adjusting to a new and better lifestyle. She's opening up.

I don't think this is a character change, but more simply a different side to her. Anyone agree?

Originally posted by Frankie Inkblot:
I don't think this is a character change, but more simply a different side to her. Anyone agree?


Yes. That's exactly what I was trying to say earlier, but I wasn't making much sense, which is quite understandable, as I haven't slept properly in about two weks.

Aw, poor you, Peg. (not sarcasm)

Everyone has different sides, and I, a fellow nerd, must say that I'm not little-miss-goody-two-shoes all the time, so why should a 3D character created by the wonderful JKR be so bland? No - all girls have emotions of all sorts, and the popular kids aren't the only ones dealing and having problems with guys.

I personally like this side to Hermione a bit, because it shows fiestiness - it's more Ginny-like, my other half. :)

Being around the age the kids are in HBP (give or take a year), I have to say my opinion on this subject. In school, generally, although teachers highly look down upon in, copying notes is okey-dokey in the eyes of everyone else because sometimes people miss things, have an off day, and if you've already done it, why not help someone else?

Second, I have helped my friends form introductions or conclusions after they have formulated what they want to write in the body. The body is the true work - the introduction and conclusion are just there to ease you in and out of the normally fact-filled body of essays, research papers, and such. In fact, my English teacher encourages us helping each other form these parts, because she knows that a lot of people need help on it, and it's not the true work of the essay - the body is, because youi're not supposed to introduce any facts in the intro or conclusion - you're just suppose to summarize the main topic, that's all.



What you say is funny, because it is totally different in my university! Teachers want a brilliant introduction and conclusion: according to them, they are the most important part of the work. But, I must admit that it is also because my teachers often read only the introduction and the conclusion... :grumble:

Anyway, I don't think it matters to know if Hermione lets Harry and Ron copying her homework or if she permits them to cheat. Above all, she wants them to learn by themselves: that is one of the quality she prefers, to prove by working that you are somebody. However, she is helpful. She helps their friends when they are in a precarious situation. She doesn't want them to fail, but she always underlines the fact that they made the wrong decision.

What you say is funny, because it is totally different in my university! Teachers want a brilliant introduction and conclusion: according to them, they are the most important part of the work. But, I must admit that it is also because my teachers often read only the introduction and the conclusion... :grumble:

Anyway, I don't think it matters to know if Hermione lets Harry and Ron copying her homework or if she permits them to cheat. Above all, she wants them to learn by themselves: that is one of the quality she prefers, to prove by working that you are somebody. However, she is helpful. She helps their friends when they are in a precarious situation. She doesn't want them to fail, but she always underlines the fact that they made the wrong decision.

I wanted to include something along those lines... sort of... in my post, but i never got around to it. That's a very good point, though. She likes it when people do things by themselves, a good trait for teachers. (I can just imagine it - Miss Granger, the new Transfiguration professor...):clap:

I wanted to include something along those lines... sort of... in my post, but i never got around to it. That's a very good point, though. She likes it when people do things by themselves, a good trait for teachers. (I can just imagine it - Miss Granger, the new Transfiguration professor...):clap:

I agree. Although, from what Jo said, one of Harry's classmates will become a teacher but it won't be who we expect. So I think a teaching career is not in the cards for Hermione. Too bad - she would be a good teacher I think.

I think that Hermione, like Harry, has evolved. Remember, she is in love with Ron.

I still want to see the "anvil-sized hints" that supposedly make this canon.

Hermione had a lot on her plate this book- granted, not as much as Harry, but still a lot. Remember that she's always been the moderator for the trio, as well as someone who it's been implied people outside the trio turn to(no canon, but I get the impression), then turn around and stool on her over what they percieve as her attitude when they don't need her. Hermione had five years of "You're crazy/stupid/overemotional, unless you're bailing us out" from both Harry AND Ron building up, and they both got a lot harder on her this book... add that to that a lot of other child characters felt the need to run her down, and I think she finally got defensive enough to say "You know what? I need to work this out- back off a bit until I do!".

Regarding Ron and Lavender... I don't see that as jealousy, I see that as Ron was being really nasty to her, then went out and got with Lavender for no reason I can see any canon with but to hurt her emotionally. Re-read the wording... Hermione didn't care that Ron had someone else, she cared that he went out and did it on a whim to "show her" over something Ginny said- it seemed like Ron did it just to hurt her, and most of what she did back was giving him a taste of his own medicine- some of what she did were things he did their 4th and 5th years and smacked of "How do you like it when it's you on the receiving end?!". Those two had been getting increasingly volatile since Hermione entered in book one, and that was pretty much the last straw for her ("I'm just so... sick of Ron!"). They made up, but I noticed that she was a lot colder to him the second half of the book- many trio conversations, she ignored him completely. BTW, afforementioned volatility is why I see them as lasting a month- if they're lucky.

I'm pretty sure Hermione also had it with all the snide little comments people make about her... I dealt with a lot of "Believe it about them until no one cares, then ask" in high school, and it gave me a hard edge halfway through my sophmore year. It wouldn't have been an especially realistic character development for her to stay the Hermione she was in the previous books, because I know from experience and observation how being treated like that puts edges on people...

I still want to see the "anvil-sized hints" that supposedly make this canon.

Hermione had a lot on her plate this book- granted, not as much as Harry, but still a lot. Remember that she's always been the moderator for the trio, as well as someone who it's been implied people outside the trio turn to(no canon, but I get the impression), then turn around and stool on her over what they percieve as her attitude when they don't need her. Hermione had five years of "You're crazy/stupid/overemotional, unless you're bailing us out" from both Harry AND Ron building up, and they both got a lot harder on her this book... add that to that a lot of other child characters felt the need to run her down, and I think she finally got defensive enough to say "You know what? I need to work this out- back off a bit until I do!".

Regarding Ron and Lavender... I don't see that as jealousy, I see that as Ron was being really nasty to her, then went out and got with Lavender for no reason I can see any canon with but to hurt her emotionally. Re-read the wording... Hermione didn't care that Ron had someone else, she cared that he went out and did it on a whim to "show her" over something Ginny said- it seemed like Ron did it just to hurt her, and most of what she did back was giving him a taste of his own medicine- some of what she did were things he did their 4th and 5th years and smacked of "How do you like it when it's you on the receiving end?!". Those two had been getting increasingly volatile since Hermione entered in book one, and that was pretty much the last straw for her ("I'm just so... sick of Ron!"). They made up, but I noticed that she was a lot colder to him the second half of the book- many trio conversations, she ignored him completely. BTW, afforementioned volatility is why I see them as lasting a month- if they're lucky.

I'm pretty sure Hermione also had it with all the snide little comments people make about her... I dealt with a lot of "Believe it about them until no one cares, then ask" in high school, and it gave me a hard edge halfway through my sophmore year. It wouldn't have been an especially realistic character development for her to stay the Hermione she was in the previous books, because I know from experience and observation how being treated like that puts edges on people...

Slight problem with that assessment. Hermione never found out about what Ginny said to Ron. She had no clue why Ron got upset with her and started dating Lavender. As far as she knew, things were going well - they had a date and then - out of the blue - he gets mad and starts going out with Lavender. She never did find out why as far as we are told in the books - her behavior does not suggest that she ever found out.

From Ron's point of view, she lied to him because she has maintained all this time that she and Viktor were never anything more than friends. It's an important lesson for both of them in communication. If Ron had talked to Hermione about what Ginny said - or even if Hermione had gone after Ron and tried harder to find out why he was so upset - things would have gone differently. That was something they both needed to learn.

A girl does not get that angry for no reason - especially Hermione. She was hurt by Ron's rejection. She thought they were finally getting somewhere only to have it blow up in her face and she doesn't even know why. That's something that still has to be settled - as far as we know.

I didn't see Hermione being cold to Ron in the latter half of HBP. I saw it as the opposite. She was cold to him at the beginning and throughout the fight but, after they made up, they were really close. There was a big change in their relationship.

But Hermione's behavior was not inconsistent with the previous books. She has shown jealousy towards girls paying attention to Ron in the past - she showed it through anger. Her behavior when confronted with real competition - Ron actually getting a girlfriend - was predictable. She had extreme reactions but she was faced with more extreme situations.

What I saw was that all three of them crammed a lot of emotional development into a short period of time. They really didn't have any choice. HBP was the first book where they could. All the other books - they just had too much going on to worry about their personal lives much. HBP was essential in that aspect because they needed that time to grow up and mature. And it shows at the end. The three of them grow up a lot through that year and, at the end, they are behaving more like adults.

I don't see how all of them won't change though through out HBP and the 7th book too. It is normal for people to change through out there teen years too, I look at how different I am now, and how I used to act when I was around Hermione's age, even though that was only a few years ago. I think I am a very different peron now, and Hermione (along with Ron, Harry, and Ginny) is going through a big change in her life, and change is a very natural thing.

I still want to see the "anvil-sized hints" that supposedly make this canon.

Hermione had a lot on her plate this book- granted, not as much as Harry, but still a lot. Remember that she's always been the moderator for the trio, as well as someone who it's been implied people outside the trio turn to(no canon, but I get the impression), then turn around and stool on her over what they percieve as her attitude when they don't need her. Hermione had five years of "You're crazy/stupid/overemotional, unless you're bailing us out" from both Harry AND Ron building up, and they both got a lot harder on her this book... add that to that a lot of other child characters felt the need to run her down, and I think she finally got defensive enough to say "You know what? I need to work this out- back off a bit until I do!".

Regarding Ron and Lavender... I don't see that as jealousy, I see that as Ron was being really nasty to her, then went out and got with Lavender for no reason I can see any canon with but to hurt her emotionally. Re-read the wording... Hermione didn't care that Ron had someone else, she cared that he went out and did it on a whim to "show her" over something Ginny said- it seemed like Ron did it just to hurt her, and most of what she did back was giving him a taste of his own medicine- some of what she did were things he did their 4th and 5th years and smacked of "How do you like it when it's you on the receiving end?!". Those two had been getting increasingly volatile since Hermione entered in book one, and that was pretty much the last straw for her ("I'm just so... sick of Ron!"). They made up, but I noticed that she was a lot colder to him the second half of the book- many trio conversations, she ignored him completely. BTW, afforementioned volatility is why I see them as lasting a month- if they're lucky.

I'm pretty sure Hermione also had it with all the snide little comments people make about her... I dealt with a lot of "Believe it about them until no one cares, then ask" in high school, and it gave me a hard edge halfway through my sophmore year. It wouldn't have been an especially realistic character development for her to stay the Hermione she was in the previous books, because I know from experience and observation how being treated like that puts edges on people...

The hints have been there for quite a while already, particularly in GoF--the very clearest being the Yule Ball.

As stated by meesha, Hermione had no idea why Ron was so upset with her--and doesn't yet know. Remember that just prior to seeing Ron and Lavender, she and Ron had made a date to go to Slughorn's party together--it was clear even to Harry that this was intended to lead somewhere beyond friendship. Then she enters the common room, and BAM! Hermione was confused, and understandably upset and angry. She'd just revealed her feelings to Ron by stating her intention to invite him to the party, only to have that unpleasant surprise thrown in her face. She wasn't mad about the fact that Ron was dating--it was that after they had made plans, he, for reasons she did not know, went and started dating Lavender.

I don't understand what you mean when you said she was colder to him in the second half of the book. She was cold to him when he was with Lavender, but after he got poisoned, she stopped being so. She consoled him when he failed his Apparition test, was that being cold to him?

And JRK saying that it's Ron and Hermione canon though too, and JKR saying that there are anvil sized hints is canon too.

I still want to see the "anvil-sized hints" that supposedly make this canon.

The hints are scattered throughout all six books. I just finished a re-read of books 1 and 2 (starting book 3). If you look carefully, you might see what I saw - every time Hermione gets upset, in trouble or is hurt, it's Ron who reacts to her. Ron reacts to the Devil's Snare, Ron congratulates Hermione for distracting Snape at the Quidditch match (and inadvertently stops Quirrell's spell), Ron says Hermione is brilliant with her school work, Ron gets angry at Malfoy when he calls her a Mudblood, Ron reacts when he and Harry learn she's petrified. Harry cares for Hermione, but not nearly as much as Ron does. Those are the hints that JKR is referring to.

Book 6, for me, taught me a lot about how JKR hides clues and drops hints. I've learned more about her writing style and I think I see more clearly how she's foreshadowed future events. For example, Harry notices Ginny a lot at the Yule Ball, a full two years before he falls for her. We're distracted by Fred and Angelina's crazy dancing, but if you look past their antics, you can tell that JKR deliberately gave us a clue that Ginny would become important to Harry at some point. She dropped Ron/Hermione hints in a similar manner. Ron is always the one to react emotionally toward Hermione, and she consistently shows jealousy toward the girls that Ron notices. Also take note that Harry only shows interest in one girl - Cho, whereas with Ron we have Fleur, Rosmerta and finally Lavender. Why does Ron notice so many girls and Harry so few? So that JKR could have Hermione react and show jealousy.

The hints have been there for quite a while already, particularly in GoF--the very clearest being the Yule Ball.

And JRK saying that it's Ron and Hermione canon though too, and JKR saying that there are anvil sized hints is canon too.

I know this will be taken as starting a fight, but when I say I would like someone to list the "smoking Guns" all the replies I get are like this... seriously, just post them. It's not that hard. When I did care about ships, I went Harmony because they actually could list what instances in the books they thought made a strong case. Herons have yet to do that, even after supposed confirmation from Rowling herself. Not to mention that Harmony was a lot more graceful- right down to being good losers, despite the "we were right, you're stupid!" attitude Heron's giving them now (including the all-too-frequent "oh, is this like that there would be no Ron and Hermione?" they like to use on forums). They were both nicer and more graceful both ways.


Remember that just prior to seeing Ron and Lavender, she and Ron had made a date to go to Slughorn's party together

GoF set in motion that Harry and Hermione began to realize that Ron would not have the same opprotunities they would, and that he was dealing with being a "black sheep" among his brothers and sister being so accomplished during their Hogwarts days, so they tried to find ways to include him in what they had going. I think Hermione invited him as part of a way to close the rift that the Slug Club was forming. Harry was speculating on whether or not it could become more, not that it was becoming more- there was a lot of future tense and what if? in that. Yet more circumstantial evidence that somehow became canon, anyways. And another "it has to mean something more than she was just being nice".

Ron brought up Krum before he dated Lavender- in the locker room, remember? And Hermione told Harry flat out that she was sick of Ron, and essentially asked him what he saw in Ron as a friend. At this point, she was two steps short of exploding at him then he made Lavender into the show he did...

I don't understand what you mean when you said she was colder to him in the second half of the book. She was cold to him when he was with Lavender, but after he got poisoned, she stopped being so. She consoled him when he failed his Apparition test, was that being cold to him?

She wasn't as cold, but it seemed like Ron was out of the trio through a lot of it. Hermione would talk to Harry with Ron not around(in fact, some parts she made it a point to not have him around) , she acted like he wasn't there a lot of the time, blew off what he said, laughed at him when he messed up... not to mention that she was a lot harder on him when he said or did the things she had a longer temper on in previous books. HBP presented me with a LOT of canon that Ron and Hermione could get together, but more than likely wouldn't last to the end of book seven.

The hints are scattered throughout all six books. I just finished a re-read of books 1 and 2 (starting book 3). If you look carefully, you might see what I saw - every time Hermione gets upset, in trouble or is hurt, it's Ron who reacts to her. Ron reacts to the Devil's Snare, Ron congratulates Hermione for distracting Snape at the Quidditch match (and inadvertently stops Quirrell's spell), Ron says Hermione is brilliant with her school work, Ron gets angry at Malfoy when he calls her a Mudblood, Ron reacts when he and Harry learn she's petrified. Harry cares for Hermione, but not nearly as much as Ron does. Those are the hints that JKR is referring to.

Book 6, for me, taught me a lot about how JKR hides clues and drops hints. I've learned more about her writing style and I think I see more clearly how she's foreshadowed future events. For example, Harry notices Ginny a lot at the Yule Ball, a full two years before he falls for her. We're distracted by Fred and Angelina's crazy dancing, but if you look past their antics, you can tell that JKR deliberately gave us a clue that Ginny would become important to Harry at some point. She dropped Ron/Hermione hints in a similar manner. Ron is always the one to react emotionally toward Hermione, and she consistently shows jealousy toward the girls that Ron notices. Also take note that Harry only shows interest in one girl - Cho, whereas with Ron we have Fleur, Rosmerta and finally Lavender. Why does Ron notice so many girls and Harry so few? So that JKR could have Hermione react and show jealousy.

Precisely. And even when Ron and Hermione were fighting in PoA, he was the one to notice how she was staggering under her course load. And notice that whenever any other girl pays attention to Ron, Hermione "snaps", "looks furious", speaks "waspishly".

I know this will be taken as starting a fight, but when I say I would like someone to list the "smoking Guns" all the replies I get are like this... seriously, just post them. It's not that hard. When I did care about ships, I went Harmony because they actually could list what instances in the books they thought made a strong case. Herons have yet to do that, even after supposed confirmation from Rowling herself.

While I would love to, I don't think that this is the thread for Herons and Harmony to make their cases known, as this thread is about Hermione. (I, for the record, am not particularly concerned about shipping)

GoF set in motion that Harry and Hermione began to realize that Ron would not have the same opprotunities they would, and that he was dealing with being a "black sheep" among his brothers and sister being so accomplished during their Hogwarts days, so they tried to find ways to include him in what they had going. I think Hermione invited him as part of a way to close the rift that the Slug Club was forming. Harry was speculating on whether or not it could become more, not that it was becoming more- there was a lot of future tense and what if? in that. Yet more circumstantial evidence that somehow became canon, anyways. And another "it has to mean something more than she was just being nice".

If it was merely a matter of not making Ron feel left out, Hermione could have just suggested that the three of them go together. But she asked him to go with her.

Ron brought up Krum before he dated Lavender- in the locker room, remember? And Hermione told Harry flat out that she was sick of Ron, and essentially asked him what he saw in Ron as a friend. At this point, she was two steps short of exploding at him then he made Lavender into the show he did...

No he did not. I rechecked that part just now. And she never asked Harry what he saw in Ron as a friend.

Ron and Harry were the last two in the changing room. They were just about to leave when Hermione entered...blah blah blah about Harry faking putting the Felix Felicis in Ron's pumpkin juice...
"There really wasn't anything in my pumpkin juice?" Ron said, astounded. "But the weather's good...and Vaisey couldn't play...I honestly haven't been given any lucky potion?"
Harry shook his head. Ron gaped at him for a moment, then rounded on Hermione, imitating her voice. "You added Felix Felicis to Ron's juice this morning, that's why he saved everything! See I can save goals without help, Hermione!"
"I never said you couldn't--Ron, you thought you'd been given it too!"
But Ron had already strode past her out of the door with his broomstick over his shoulder.
"Er," said Harry into the sudden silence; he had not expected his plan to backfire like this, "shall...shall we go up to the party, then?"
"You go!" said Hermione, blinking back tears. "I'm sick of Ron at the moment, I don't know what I'm supposed to have done..."
And she stormed out of the changing room too.
--HBP, Chapter 14: Felix Felicis, pp. 298-300

No mention of Krum or Harry's judgment here.

She wasn't as cold, but it seemed like Ron was out of the trio through a lot of it. Hermione would talk to Harry with Ron not around(in fact, some parts she made it a point to not have him around) , she acted like he wasn't there a lot of the time, blew off what he said, laughed at him when he messed up... not to mention that she was a lot harder on him when he said or did the things she had a longer temper on in previous books. HBP presented me with a LOT of canon that Ron and Hermione could get together, but more than likely wouldn't last to the end of book seven.

All this happened before Ron got poisoned, might I remind you, when she was furious at Ron for being upset with her without telling her why. Upon Ron's getting poisoned, all this ended, and in the latter parts of the book, starting from Chapter 19: Elf Tails, Ron and Hermione mended their friendship.

I know this will be taken as starting a fight, but when I say I would like someone to list the "smoking Guns" all the replies I get are like this... seriously, just post them.This really isn't a shipping thread, so this request may not get fufilled entirely.When I did care about ships, I went Harmony because they actually could list what instances in the books they thought made a strong case.I honestly couldn't see any "romantic tension" between Harry and Hermione because of how they acted around one another. They were too calm and comfortable around one another. There are no awkward moments between the two like there are with Hermione and Ron.

Hermione, to me, seemed to always treat Harry like a sibling. As a matter of fact, sometimes she can act downright motherly towards him because of the situation he's in or just motherly in general. One thing that comes to mind is in OotP. I don't know the page number right off, or the exact quote, but it's when Hermione thought Harry was Prefect. She "shrieked" and was proud. A few paragraphs (pages?) later, we have Mrs. Weasley reacted in the same exact fashion towards Ron when she finds out. JKR paralleled Mrs. Weasley's reaction to her "son" with Hermione's reacting to Harry.

In GoF, Hermione gave Harry a kiss. No reaction out of Harry at all. He just noted it as something she'd never done before. As for when she kissed Ron, he had a very strong reaction to it and even touched his cheek like maybe a love-sick puppy. Very typical for romantic-oriented stuff.

In my opinion, GoF is what pretty much sealed it anyway. Hermione was upset because Ron didn't ask her to the Yule Ball, and for the record, Harry needed a date too, but she didn't get upset over his not asking her and didn't even seem to care if Harry had a date or not. Hermione seemed to only react to Ron. Then there's that "Yule Brawl" that the two had. She flat out told Ron to ask her out. No matter how upset a girl is, she wouldn't tell a guy to ask her out unless she was interested in him. To do otherwise, would be leading him on and that doesn't seem too Hermione-ish to me.Herons have yet to do that, even after supposed confirmation from Rowling herself.When the love topics were here, I saw loads of hints from both sides. Some I agreed with, some I didn't, like that Hippogriff theory for Harmony. It's like for that theory, Sirius was totally overlooked.GoF set in motion that Harry and Hermione began to realize that Ron would not have the same opprotunities they would, and that he was dealing with being a "black sheep" among his brothers and sister being so accomplished during their Hogwarts days, so they tried to find ways to include him in what they had going.Ron's main problem, just like with Neville, is lack of confidence in himself. His confidenceis better compared to GoF, so he should be able to accomplish whatever he actually wants to accomplish. The thing is, we don't know what that is. Same goes for Harry, getting right down to it.I think Hermione invited him as part of a way to close the rift that the Slug Club was forming.I doubt she would've blushed (didn't she?) and reacted the way she did when asking him if that was the only case. The two had an "awkward silence". A friend asking out another friend, wouldn't act like that. A friend asking out a friend (who of which you like), more than likely would. Also, I doubt Hermione would've mentioned that McLaggen guy, when asking, if she only saw Ron as a friend.Harry was speculating on whether or not it could become more, not that it was becoming more- there was a lot of future tense and what if? in that. Yet more circumstantial evidence that somehow became canon, anyways. And another "it has to mean something more than she was just being nice".Odd how so many people saw this "circumstantial evidence" as hints for the pairing.

Ron and Hermione fit the typical bickering lovers dynamic and they have also been paralleled in the text (OotP) to Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. More foreshadowing, imo.Ron brought up Krum before he dated Lavender- in the locker room, remember?Naturally, the guy's jealous of him. And Hermione told Harry flat out that she was sick of Ron,Because he was giving her the cold shoulder. It's only normal for her to be.and essentially asked him what he saw in Ron as a friend.Not with her physical actions. IMO, she was hoping that the date to Slughorn's party could maybe lead to something more between them.She wasn't as cold, but it seemed like Ron was out of the trio through a lot of it. Hermione would talk to Harry with Ron not around(in fact, some parts she made it a point to not have him around) , she acted like he wasn't there a lot of the time, blew off what he said, laughed at him when he messed up... not to mention that she was a lot harder on him when he said or did the things she had a longer temper on in previous books. HBP presented me with a LOT of canon that Ron and Hermione could get together, but more than likely wouldn't last to the end of book seven.I think the two would be fine together. If they got together, they'd stop acting all stupid and only do normal bickering (notice they even bicker when they agree?), and the jealousy factor would be dealt with since the two would be together and wouldn't have to worry about others intefering with it for them to get jealous.

Ron brought up Krum before he dated Lavender- in the locker room, remember? And Hermione told Harry flat out that she was sick of Ron, and essentially asked him what he saw in Ron as a friend. At this point, she was two steps short of exploding at him then he made Lavender into the show he did...

That is incorrect. That conversation dealt solely with the fact that Hermione thought Harry had put Felix Felicis in Ron's juice. Krum was never mentioned and Hermione never asked Harry what he saw in Ron as a friend.

The hints are scattered throughout all six books. I just finished a re-read of books 1 and 2 (starting book 3). If you look carefully, you might see what I saw - every time Hermione gets upset, in trouble or is hurt, it's Ron who reacts to her. Ron reacts to the Devil's Snare, Ron congratulates Hermione for distracting Snape at the Quidditch match (and inadvertently stops Quirrell's spell), Ron says Hermione is brilliant with her school work, Ron gets angry at Malfoy when he calls her a Mudblood, Ron reacts when he and Harry learn she's petrified. Harry cares for Hermione, but not nearly as much as Ron does. Those are the hints that JKR is referring to.

Book 6, for me, taught me a lot about how JKR hides clues and drops hints. I've learned more about her writing style and I think I see more clearly how she's foreshadowed future events. For example, Harry notices Ginny a lot at the Yule Ball, a full two years before he falls for her. We're distracted by Fred and Angelina's crazy dancing, but if you look past their antics, you can tell that JKR deliberately gave us a clue that Ginny would become important to Harry at some point. She dropped Ron/Hermione hints in a similar manner. Ron is always the one to react emotionally toward Hermione, and she consistently shows jealousy toward the girls that Ron notices. Also take note that Harry only shows interest in one girl - Cho, whereas with Ron we have Fleur, Rosmerta and finally Lavender. Why does Ron notice so many girls and Harry so few? So that JKR could have Hermione react and show jealousy.

Exactly. :agree:

It's obvious early on in the series - most significantly from COS on. Ron just demonstrates that he cares more for Hermione on a personal level than Harry does. Harry values Hermione as a friend but we didn't see any evidence of him caring for her on a personal level until HBP and that was all centered around her fight with Ron - and mostly centered on him trying to get her to speak to Ron again.

And you bring up a really good point about Ron noticing other girls. Because it is all from Harry's point of view, Jo had to come up with an obvious way to show that Ron and Hermione liked each other. Showing them both get jealous was the easiest way to do that.

I think HBP was an important stage in Ron and Hermione's development - both in growing up and as a couple. There were a lot of important lessons learned for both of them.

Since this thread is about Hermione, I will stick to what was important for her. I think the most significant thing that Hermione learned was that she couldn't take Ron for granted. She couldn't keep her feelings under guard the way she has been and expect him to figure out how she felt.

While we have many examples throughout the series of Ron complimenting Hermione - praising her - and showing that he cared, Hermione has played it close to the vest - guarding her feelings for Ron so well that he couldn't see them. That was an important lesson for her and there is a huge difference in her behavior towards Ron after he was poisoned.

It's obvious early on in the series - most significantly from COS on. Ron just demonstrates that he cares more for Hermione on a personal level than Harry does. Harry values Hermione as a friend but we didn't see any evidence of him caring for her on a personal level until HBP and that was all centered around her fight with Ron - and mostly centered on him trying to get her to speak to Ron again.

And you bring up a really good point about Ron noticing other girls. Because it is all from Harry's point of view, Jo had to come up with an obvious way to show that Ron and Hermione liked each other. Showing them both get jealous was the easiest way to do that.

I think HBP was an important stage in Ron and Hermione's development - both in growing up and as a couple. There were a lot of important lessons learned for both of them.

Since this thread is about Hermione, I will stick to what was important for her. I think the most significant thing that Hermione learned was that she couldn't take Ron for granted. She couldn't keep her feelings under guard the way she has been and expect him to figure out how she felt.

While we have many examples throughout the series of Ron complimenting Hermione - praising her - and showing that he cared, Hermione has played it close to the vest - guarding her feelings for Ron so well that he couldn't see them. That was an important lesson for her and there is a huge difference in her behavior towards Ron after he was poisoned.

:agree: Amen to that

I ,too, think she has changed a lot-but, i like her all the same.

I think that the change in Hermione is actually for the better. She's become more - I don't know - strong, because she's really begun standing up for herself. She's also stopped being such a blatant know-it-all, as well as a bit more of a complex character than your average nerd. I, personally, like her a lot (and am a lot like her...) and I would prefer a guy that was a mix of Harry and Ron, so I don't really care who she ends up with (although, Jo has confirmed Ron, so that what I'll go with).

Moving on from shipping, Hermione, I think, has gained more wisdom and common sense over the years. In comparison to book one, she may have had logic, but remember... where is it... (I actually have my books handy this time)

Ah, yes:

"So light a fire!" Harry choked.
"Yes - of course - but there's no wood!" Hermione cried, wringing her hands.
"HAVE YOU GONE MAD?" Ron bellowed. "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?"[/I
]- pg. 278, American PS/SS

And, in book 6 (America), though this isn't a common sense example, it's still wisdom (and memory):

[I]"You said once before," said Hermione quietly, "that there was time to turn back if we wanted to. We've had time, haven't we?"

(Tear-worthy moment) :upset:

There - more wisdom. Teehee... how's that for a change of topic? I don't want this thread taken off because of bitterness... :no:

I think that the change in Hermione is actually for the better. She's become more - I don't know - strong, because she's really begun standing up for herself. She's also stopped being such a blatant know-it-all, as well as a bit more of a complex character than your average nerd. I, personally, like her a lot (and am a lot like her...) and I would prefer a guy that was a mix of Harry and Ron, so I don't really care who she ends up with (although, Jo has confirmed Ron, so that what I'll go with).

Moving on from shipping, Hermione, I think, has gained more wisdom and common sense over the years. In comparison to book one, she may have had logic, but remember... where is it... (I actually have my books handy this time)

Ah, yes:

"So light a fire!" Harry choked.
"Yes - of course - but there's no wood!" Hermione cried, wringing her hands.
"HAVE YOU GONE MAD?" Ron bellowed. "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?"[/I
]- pg. 278, American PS/SS

And, in book 6 (America), though this isn't a common sense example, it's still wisdom (and memory):

[I]"You said once before," said Hermione quietly, "that there was time to turn back if we wanted to. We've had time, haven't we?"

(Tear-worthy moment) :upset:

There - more wisdom. Teehee... how's that for a change of topic? I don't want this thread taken off because of bitterness... :no:

:agree: I loved that tear-worthy moment. It also shows how Hermione's priorities have changed--in SS/PS, expulsion from school to her was a fate worse than death, in PoA, her greatest fear was failing her exams. Now, we see how she has grown to think beyond grades and exams. She chose to give up her last year of schooling to join Harry on his quest.

While we have many examples throughout the series of Ron complimenting Hermione - praising her - and showing that he cared, Hermione has played it close to the vest - guarding her feelings for Ron so well that he couldn't see them.
There are many more examples of Ron saying Hermione's mental, and bossy and an annoying know-it-all, than there are of his complimenting her. He only seemed to do that when he wanted help with his homework. I think the only time Ron really did anything close to expressing his feelings was giving Hermione perfume for Xmas.

Just a reminder: this thread is for discussion of Hermione, not shipping. Let's all try to stay on topic.

There are many more examples of Ron saying Hermione's mental, and bossy and an annoying know-it-all, than there are of his complimenting her. He only seemed to do that when he wanted help with his homework. I think the only time Ron really did anything close to expressing his feelings was giving Hermione perfume for Xmas.

Actually, I don't recall Ron ever directly saying that Hermione was annoying. I'm not saying he never did but I don't recall anything off the top of my head. He tells her when she is being mental, bossy, and a know-it-all when she is being those things. He's very honest with her. He compliments her at other times besides when he wants help with his homework too. The significance is that he says these things to her and not just to other people. He also defends her against anyone saying those things to her in cruelty. The point of that was that Harry doesn't do any of that - he also thinks that she is mental, bossy, a know-it-all, and he does think of her as annoying but he doesn't say those things to her face and he never compliments her to her face.

But this thread really isn't for discussing that. If you would like, I would be happy to discuss it with you on the Ron/Hermione thread. :)

:agree: I loved that tear-worthy moment. It also shows how Hermione's priorities have changed--in SS/PS, expulsion from school to her was a fate worse than death, in PoA, her greatest fear was failing her exams. Now, we see how she has grown to think beyond grades and exams. She chose to give up her last year of schooling to join Harry on his quest.

I agree. I loved that moment in HBP. And it was a reminder of how they started out - that scene very closely mirrors the scene in PS/SS just before they go through the trap door. So we can see how far they have all come and how much they have grown.

(I can just imagine it - Miss Granger, the new Transfiguration professor...)

Hahaha or Mrs Weasley?:evil:

I dont think shes changed... shes growing up! Our little Hermione is getting all big, shes annoyed at Ron more because she likes him. Or so we are lead to beleive... ( not for discussion here i know..)

She is annoyed at Harry's Potions book because she's smart and knows it wrong. Personaly... I think she was innitaly annoyed at the book because it was helping Harry be beter than her but her inital annoyance changed to angry when she realized just how dangerious it could be. I'm pretty sure her real dislike for the book starts when Ginny goes off at Harry for doing what the hand written words in the book tell him to do... Thats when Hermione really starts telling him to not use it...

And as normal she was right...!!

?Ella

Girls are like that sometimes. We do things that are completely out of character for stupid reasons which is why books like"Smart women stupid choices" make it to the bestsellers list. But i do agree she has changed and i didn't like the way she ignored hagrid other than that she acted like a typical teenager.

i didn't like the way she ignored hagrid other than that she acted like a typical teenager.

Where did she ignore Hagrid? If I remember correctly, she was the first one to notice that Hagrid was upset about them not taking Care of Magical Creatures, and she was the first to insist that they go see him and explain.

In my opinion Hermione has developed very smoothly and convincingly. If she were always the same, she wouldn't seem as real as she does now. Harry and Ron have also changed, especially Harry - he was rather shy in the beginning, now look at him handling his Captain duties. Hermione relaxed and that's good for her. For the cannaries and McLaggen, she was very upset and furious, because she had invited Ron to the party, thus showing her feelings for him, and the next day he is being cold and indifferent to her without any explanation and then she finds him kissing another girl. She is right to be angry. As for Aragog, she is quite right, I think - what's the point of sneaking out of the castle when you're not allowed to, just to go on the funeral of a monster? Besides, Ron also refused to go.

Where did she ignore Hagrid? If I remember correctly, she was the first one to notice that Hagrid was upset about them not taking Care of Magical Creatures, and she was the first to insist that they go see him and explain.

Some people feel that Hermione not wanting to go to Aragog's funeral was insensitive and "out of character" for Hermione. That may be what was being referred to.

I don't agree though. I think that was very "in character" for Hermione. It would have been different if it were a matter of saving Aragog's life - as Hermione very plainly said in the book. I felt that Hagrid was in the wrong there. He knew that they wouldn't be allowed out that late - that they would be breaking rules. He could have chosen a time earlier in the day where they could have come without breaking any rules. Harry wouldn't have gone either if he hadn't taken the potion and "realized" going to Hagrid's would help him get Slughorn's memory somehow.

I think this is just another sign of how much they have grown and matured. They are learning that sometimes you have to tell your friends "no". With Hagrid - they have done a lot for him over the years and sometimes it has been at personal risk for them to do so. Helping him care for Norbert and helping him get rid of Norbert was dangerous for them and illegal. Ron was bitten and ended up spending a few days in the hospital wing - Harry and Hermione lost a load of house points and got detention over it. Aragog nearly killed Harry and Ron. The blast-ended skrewts in class were dangerous. Expecting them to take over "teaching" Grawp was dangerous for them - not only because of Grawp but the centaurs as well.

So, I think this shows that they have learned that there are times you have to say "no". This was not a situation in which there was anything they could do. Hagrid needed their comfort but they all realized that they could comfort him the next day - when they wouldn't be breaking any rules to do so.

Some people feel that Hermione not wanting to go to Aragog's funeral was insensitive and "out of character" for Hermione. That may be what was being referred to.

I don't agree though. I think that was very "in character" for Hermione. It would have been different if it were a matter of saving Aragog's life - as Hermione very plainly said in the book. I felt that Hagrid was in the wrong there. He knew that they wouldn't be allowed out that late - that they would be breaking rules. He could have chosen a time earlier in the day where they could have come without breaking any rules. Harry wouldn't have gone either if he hadn't taken the potion and "realized" going to Hagrid's would help him get Slughorn's memory somehow.

I think this is just another sign of how much they have grown and matured. They are learning that sometimes you have to tell your friends "no". With Hagrid - they have done a lot for him over the years and sometimes it has been at personal risk for them to do so. Helping him care for Norbert and helping him get rid of Norbert was dangerous for them and illegal. Ron was bitten and ended up spending a few days in the hospital wing - Harry and Hermione lost a load of house points and got detention over it. Aragog nearly killed Harry and Ron. The blast-ended skrewts in class were dangerous. Expecting them to take over "teaching" Grawp was dangerous for them - not only because of Grawp but the centaurs as well.

So, I think this shows that they have learned that there are times you have to say "no". This was not a situation in which there was anything they could do. Hagrid needed their comfort but they all realized that they could comfort him the next day - when they wouldn't be breaking any rules to do so.

(Oh boy, that again.) Right on, meesha! Hermione was being logical--why would they sneak out, breaking explicit rules and getting themselves into possible danger, all to watch Hagrid bury Aragog? Hermione said herself that it would have been different were it a matter of saving Aragog. Since he was dead already, they could have just paid their respects the next morning, at a time when they wouldn't be guilty of breaking school rules, and it wouldn't have made a difference. Hagrid may be their friend, but as meesha said, he's asked them to do a lot of stuff that is dangerous and has cost them.

Hermione is coming to terms with her feelings. So, in a good way, she's changed. :)

I think it's version two time.