Book Five Predictions: Who Will Fall in Love with Whom? [Archive] - Page 13

lleyki

February 6th, 2003, 8:04 pm

Hello all.:) Okay a few things;

I'm glad some people have reinterated my personal feeling on that JK quote so many R/Hr shippers have abused to death. Yes she said the word 'between' but once again the reporter asked was there something going on 'between' them in GOF. Let's consider GOF; Hermione goes to the dance with Krum and Ron spends the entire night pouting and grumbling. Hermione and Ron have a huge fight because among other things she didn't appreciate being used as a last resort(which really is what he treated her like); every mention of Krum by Hermione after this is met with attitude by Ron. My point is, of course something was going on between them. Did she say, "but they'll both realize in the next book?" No. Did she say, "yes something is and they'll both accept and acknowledge it in the next book?" No. Did she say, "yes something is going on and will be further explored in the upcoming books?" No.

My point once again is that JK Rowling is like many authors in that she answers questions directly as they are asked. Meaning she says nothing more, nothing less. She answers questions in relation to the particular novel. Again, this isn't to say that she won't go the route of R/Hr. I just find it hard to believe a woman who is so secretive with her books that the publishers know nothing until she is done; would make anything so obvious. I keep remembering when everyone knew there was going to be a death in GOF and let's be honest; how many people thought it was going to be someone very essential and important? It turned out to be Cedric, who while it was very sad and tragic, we barely knew at all until GOF. So, once again, I simply can't believe that this same author would make ANYTHING so obvious. We need to remember again that the Harry Potter series aren't ordinary teen novels. One of the main appeals of the novels is the twists, surprises and wonderful way little things are interwoven and well-crafed together to create a good masterpiece. That said, it's hard to believe that an author of such novels would ever reveal anything of her works before it's released.

I find Sirius's post about how Ron who has been overshadowed by his brothers all his life would be so heartbroken if his best friend got the girl he liked so much. Nothing that hasn't been said by R/Hr shippers before. However, you misunderstand some posters like myself who put evidence for H/Hr pairing. No, to answer your question; I don't want that for Ron. However, my feeling is too many R/Hr shippers see that pair as a victory for Ron over Harry or as some prize that Ron has finally won in his other miserable life. That bothers me because it objectifies Hermione as some kind of consolation prize and very little account is ever taken of her feelings. A number of R/Hr shippers seriously need to consider their arguments. HE was so jealous of her and Krum, HE asked her to the dance, HE always gets mad over her, HE never gets anything. It's all about how Ron feels but very little is said of how Hermione feels. It's like her feelings don't count. Here's the reality of this world; just because someone likes you doesn't mean you must like them. A point that alot of people who feel Ginny should have Harry because she likes him so much should consider. I mean there are those who even feel that Harry should step aside if he has feelings for Hermione; because of course Ron's had it SO much more tragic than Harry and of course deserves her more.

I mean let's ignore every subtle hint that Hermione may have more than just feelings of friendship for Harry. She kisses him on the cheek. Of course it's ONLY because he'd been through alot. No matter that she could have hugged him, told him that everything would be okay. All of which she's done before and again call me old-fashioned but a hug says comfort, support, love and friendship much better than a kiss on the cheek. Btw, since so many like to stress the use of 'between' by JK when discussing R/Hr, I find it interesting the way the kiss was described. Not simply "Hermione kissed Harry on the cheek and told him goodbye." No instead it read "and then she did something she'd never done before..." Interesting wording. Krum informs Harry that Hermione apparently talks about him alot, even when he's not around it seems. She does it so much it seems to have made Krum both irritated and suspicious. Hermione spends as much time with both Harry and Ron yet Colin seems to get the impression that she is Harry's girlfriend. That wouldn't be so bad even with all the school believing it. However, what I find interesting is that Mrs.Weasley would believe it. She had these children at her house for crying out loud, you'd think she of all people would know that the three are all just friends. Instead she believes it so much she is even cold towards Hermione. There is a belief that sometimes people on the outside see a situation alot clearer than the people who are involved. All that said, alot of R/Hr shippers would prefer to ignore everything. "Oh she's comfortable with him because she only sees him as a friend."

Once again, I've never found that Hermione is SO much more comfortable with Harry. She doesn't go around hugging and kissing him all the time; then we could say, oh she sees him only as a brother. Hermione hugged both Ron and Harry twice. All the times were very emotional situations. Therefore the she's so comfortable with Harry is a sign she isn't interested in him doesn't work; because she's comfortable with both. They're her best friends, remember?

I'm so happy people have brought up the whole issue of Ron flirting with Fleur infront of Hermione. Some R/Hr shippers would like to believe that Ron has some deep love for Hermione and it would be so tragic if he lost her to Harry. However, his behaviour with Fleur makes you question how deep those feelings really are. He gets jealous and acts very rude all during the dance but that certainly never deters his attentions towards Fleur. Now this isn't to say that all this makes Ron a bad person. If anything it just reaffirms the whole argument that he is a typical teenage boy. I mean let's face it; Fleur was hot. However, I remember someone's point that Ron's anger and jealousy over Hermione going to the dance with Krum was from possessiveness than romance and love. Again that isn't to say he is a bad person for it. Let's face it, it has always been H/HR/R, and he has taken it for granted that she always would be there. Also it's not like Hermione has ever had much of a social life. Besides schoolwork, the only thing she gives that much attention is her relationship with the two of them. Therefore while it was wrong of him to assume she'd be there it was perhaps understandable. However, when she wasn't it threw the order of things off and Ron reacted the way he reacts to alot of things. With anger, jealousy and stubborness. Plus, hormones are raging right now and that causes alot of confusion. Ron'll probably start to attribute his feelings to his liking Hermione but it may not be as deep or as strong as he thinks. I think the flirting with Fleur while he supposedly has feelings for Hermione showed that. Ron is growing up and is at the stage when he doesn't know what he wants. So, all the R/Hr shippers who would like to believe that if Ron doesn't get Hermione it may be some tragedy, you may overestimating Ron's feelings.

Now let's consider Harry for a minute. He likes Cho and his feelings never seem to stray. When so many boys were affected by Fleur, he wasn't. While Ron was gawking at Fleur, he was looking at Cho. When Fleur kissed him he blushed not because he was interested in her but because Harry is uncomfortable with any kind of show of affection towards him. Remember he blushed when Mrs. Weasley hugged and kissed him in POA. The point is Harry seems quite mature in his feelings. He isn't ruled purely by looks(yes Cho is pretty, but he also mentions that she's smart, friendly and let's not forget a quidditch player. We all know how obssessed Harry is over Quidditch) and he seems pretty loyal in his devotions. Actually the only girl Harry pays more attention to than Cho is Hermione. At the dance, he seemed awfully fascinated with her. Not just how she looked; when the menus were placed, Harry's first thought was how Hermione felt about the house-elves obviously having more work. Keep in mind that like everyone else he thought the whole thing was stupid; but since it was important to her, he knew it was something she'd worry about. Someone said that one of the things they loved about GOF was the quiet way in which the friendship and relationship between H/Hr was developed and explored. I agree, the sad thing is, so many got caught up with Ron's tantrums and the feelings he seemed to have for Hermione that they didn't notice this at all. If they noticed, they brushed it off as insignificant signs of friendship and/or H/Hr being boring. Of course, no childish arguments mean boring, no passion. A relationship based on love, respect and loyalty couldn't possibly last. Btw, Harry and Hermione are passionate. Read their arguments carefully.

One last thing. Man this post is long.:D Some people find the fact that Harry didn't blush when Hermione kissed him as a sign he isn't interested and that it was purely friendship. However, I found his reaction to reaffirm the fact that the kiss was something significant. Like I said, Harry is uncomfortable with public shows of affection. When Hermione hugged him in SS, remember his reaction. When Fleur kissed him he blushed and was very uncomfortable. However, he didn't blush, there was no mention of being uncomforable, but he did notice she'd never done it before. If anything I got the sense that Harry was surprised and confused. Confusion for a teenage boy usually means that this means something to him. Harry was probably surprised by the kiss because it was unexpected and then confused by it. Like me he was probably surprised she didn't simply hug him. My point is if it was purely as friendship he woudn't be confused by it. We need to remember that Harry has never entertained the idea of Hermione as a girl; meaning someone who he can actually date. First there was the shock of seeing her at the dance and then she kisses him. He may be confused because who knows he has actually started seeing her as a girl, meaning feminine. Not to say that it is romantic feelings but rather curiousity.

Okay I'll shut up now. Btw, Sarah don't worry if you don't know what ship to now support. That's the point of a forum, to explore and discuss different points and ideas. It's good if you're willing to consider different ideas. There are too many people here who aren't.

Turambar

February 6th, 2003, 9:16 pm

IIeyki makes a good point about the quietness of H/Hr signs.
JKR deliberately looks for very subtle ways of dropping lines in the text. For example, just before Crouch senior is attacked there's a line about Harry noticing an eagle owl flying towards the castle. When you read it, it appears to be just a descriptive sentence on the scene Harry is looking at. Then shortly afterwards when he has his dream he flies on an eagle owl which brings word to Voldemort about Couch's death. It's just a very quiet way of showing how Voldemort is keeping in touch with his favourite death eater under Dumbledore's nose.

Max

February 6th, 2003, 9:57 pm

Really? The eagle owl was mentioned? Never noticed ... must read GoF again.

Anyway...

I agree with you completely, lleyki. It's true that Harry's thoughts always turn to Hermione, though you never notice it the first time you read GoF. Some R/Hr shippers may argue that Ron flirted with Fleur because she was part veela. That may be true, but Harry wasn't affected by Fleur. As lleyki said, Harry is much more mature than Ron is. You could see it plainly in his actions ans speech.

Dreamprincess288

February 6th, 2003, 11:00 pm

Awesome points lleyki! I'm not a shipper for either couple... I just wanna see some romance in the novels since I think it'll make them more interesting. While I agree with your points I also think that Ron and Hermione is more likely. Now, we haven't been given any real indication on Hermione's feelings. However, it does seem that Ron likes Hermione.... he may now know it yet, but it seems that he has some feelings for her. It may just be that Ron was acting like the overprotected big brother to Hermione, or maybe he actually likes her. We have to wait until June 21st to know for sure. Now, it doesn't seem that Harry has developed any feelings for Hermione yet. As the story is told from Harry's point of view we would know if he liked her, the way we know that he likes Cho. Now, that doesn't meen that he'll never like Hermione. But I don't think he liked her in any of the first four books since it was never mentioned or hinted at. Also, J.K. needs to develop Hermione's feelings more before any relationship can happen. It's possible that Ron and Harry may go to Hermione's house in the summer of the 5th book. That would be a perfect opportunity for readers to view Hermione better and learn who she is as a person and get a better outlook on her feelings.

snitch14

February 6th, 2003, 11:13 pm

Kay people. Just for the purpose of keeping this thread going, I re-read "The Yule Ball" chapter, "The Maddness of Mr. Crouch" chapter and "The Beginning" chapter. All of these chapters mention interactions between H/Hr and R/Hr. Here's what I found ----

Well, you'll probably tire of hearing this but Ron couldn't stop mentioning Hermione and kept looking at her at the Yule Ball. It's just too little of a thing to make a scene.

Harry doesn't have feelings for Hermione, though I can't say the same for her as she keeps her feelings to herself. When Krum asked Harry bout their relationship, Harry told straight out that there was notin goin on. He didn't even THINK about it afterwards and they just changed the subject. Proves that Harry just doesn't see Hermione as his girlfriend. Sad though.

And Harry didn't think much about Hermione's kiss. He was just thinking that she had never done it before, not a little thing to miss. Hehe...

pegoheart144

February 7th, 2003, 12:22 am

Hermione exhibits signs of jealousy too. Every time Fleur says something to Ron, she gets angry. She was also upset when Fleur first came to Howarts and Ron (with most of the other boys) was ogling her.

All I'm saying is there are signs that Hermione also likes Ron. She was extremely hurt when Ron didn't even consider asking her to Yule Ball, but only asked as a last resort.

I think Hermione was flattered by Krums attention but she kept using it as a way to get Ron's attention. That she wouldn't tell Ron whether she accepted Krum's invitation to visit during the holidays is just an example.

snitch14

February 7th, 2003, 12:27 am

Well, you might be rite about Hermione but she is always concerned about Harry too. She always stood by his side when he and Ron were not talking, and she DID talk to Krum a lot bout Harry.

Though, the chances are looking bigger for R/Hr. Still there's hope...

Expelliorma~

February 7th, 2003, 1:05 am

If Hermione dated both Harry and Ron as some people predicted, wouldn't their friendship become a bit awkward?

Dreamprincess288

February 7th, 2003, 2:50 am

Originally posted by pegoheart144
Hermione exhibits signs of jealousy too. Every time Fleur says something to Ron, she gets angry. She was also upset when Fleur first came to Howarts and Ron (with most of the other boys) was ogling her.

All I'm saying is there are signs that Hermione also likes Ron. She was extremely hurt when Ron didn't even consider asking her to Yule Ball, but only asked as a last resort.

I think Hermione was flattered by Krums attention but she kept using it as a way to get Ron's attention. That she wouldn't tell Ron whether she accepted Krum's invitation to visit during the holidays is just an example.

very true... Hermione does seem to have some feelings for Ron too. but they don't seem as strong as the feelings that Ron has for her.

Turambar

February 7th, 2003, 4:02 am

Max: don't know what version of GOF you've got but in my Bloomsbury hardback the owl reference is on page 469. It's not a big deal but it just reminded me of the way she introduced the spiders in COS: just a sentence about them moving across the floor in the middle of a descriptive paragraph.

Other things:
That was a good point about Harry thinking about the house elves and the menu at the ball. Another curious thing was the way he didn't try to make conversation with Parvati. Normally he's considerate or at least polite - think how he deals with Colin - but he was mainly concentrating on Hermione. In fact it's a full 7 pages between his jaw dropping at the sight of Hermione and him glancing again at Cedric and Cho. The next morning he even discusses with her how she made her hair sleek for the ball!

The bit about Molly: I think I said before that it was clear from her reaction to Rita's articles that she didn't mind the idea of Harry/Hermione rather than being keen for Hermione to be interested in Ron because she only got upset at the second article. It's clear that she did read the first article because Charlie quotes her mentioning the bit about him crying for his parents. But IIeyki's point was different: that Molly thought the idea of H/Hr believeable and took the articles seriously. I guess the flip side of that is that if she took them seriously then she hasn't noticed any special chemistry or burgeoning crush between Ron and Hermione. She would have seen Ron and Hermione together without Harry since Hermione was already at the Burrow when Harry arrived in GOF.
Alot of readers say that Harry/Hermione don't have any chemistry or spark. What the outsiders' point of views suggest is that their bond is probably more shown with body language, looks at each other and general, mature, getting along with each other. Maybe a bit like it is on screen. The HP film makers could be on the money there because regardless of Cho, Krum, Ron, Ginny and any others it would still seem natural to pair H/Hr in the end because they come across as a natural pair.

Expelliorma~

February 7th, 2003, 4:02 am

Hermione isn't really the type to show her feelings easily, even in front of her best friends.

BabyMars

February 7th, 2003, 4:14 am

I have to disagree with several of the R/Hr Shippers. I have read GOF 3 times and the more I read it, the more I see between the lines. The first time I read it, it did appear that Ron likes Hermione. That is a given. Although that may be the case, I never got the impression that Ron liked her. In the book, when Hermione read the article that Rita Skeeter wrote about Her and Harry, she didn't meet Ron's eyes. I took that as her knowing he has a crush on her but doesn't want to be obvious about knowing. Also, the fight that the two have at the end of yull ball, was Ron being jealous (or overprotective, or insecure, whatever you want to call it) and Hermione being defensive. I'd be pretty darn upset if my best freind asked me as a last resort saying "Oh, wait, Your a girl!" And then later, he gets all jealous and accuses me of giving Krum information about Harry(It was something along the lines of that. Don't quote me on that one). I interpreted it as Hermione being defensive and angry that her best freind would say those things to her. Another thing is, I really can't say that I know what Hermione is feeling. We know that Ron likes her. We know that Harry Doesn't. Do we know how Hermione feels? Not really. I think JKR left that out in the open, just so that the plotline of future books isn't set in stone. I have this slight feeling that Hermione may feel deeply for both of the boys.

I am honestly an H/H shipper. I wasn't the first time I read though the books. That is because I only read on the surface. Now that I've read the series 3 times, I've read what is underneath, or between the lines as some of you have stated, and I've seen something between H/H. It is not obvious and that's probably why a lot of R/Hers are a little skeptical. The reason why i am an H/H shipper is because I can see their growing relationship. Their friendship starts becoming deeper and deeper as GOF goes on. NOw, I'm not discluding Ron on this. his friendship with Hermione grows too. It also grows with Harry. Their bond as a trio grows much stronger and will in future books. I think what my deal is, is that I think JKR is leading us on, making us look at something obvious, when really that isn't the case. R/Hr would be the obvious at this point in time, only because we do know Ron's feelings for Hermione. NOw, reguarding the quote by JKR about what is going on "between" them. I think that means moer than the eye can see. She answered the question directly. Notice that see didn't go into detail about their "blosseming" relationship or whatever. Actually, she never used the word "Between. Just something is "going on". That "going on" could honestly mean a variety of things and I don't think it means the obvious. I'm not saying R/Hr won't happen, if it does, then so be it. Whatever JKR writes is what I love.

What I think that JKR may be planning is a blosseming friendship/romance between H/H. I could be completely wrong of course, but by reading between the lines, that's what I see. Harry claims he doesn't have those kind of feelings for Hermione. Well, of course he doesn't and he won't until he realizes how important she is to him! He won't know it until he realizes that she will be the woman the comes first in his life! If that takes a lifetime, then so be it. When it does happen (hopefully...) I hope it hits him like a brick to the head.

:banghead:

Lasty, I want to challenge the R/Hers to come up with better evidence. I'm tired of the JKR quotes. They can be misleading, they can mean something totally the opposite of what we interperate, and she is NOT obvious. Why would she give something like that away?? Remember the book synopsis of GOF? It talked about Harry's crush, Cho Chang and all (don't quote me here either), and did anything happen there? Not at all!

Anyway, I could go on forever about this. I've had several wonderful arguments with my sister about this and we can't seem to come to a concensus. I think the H/H and R/H wars will go on until the OOTP comes out. Although, I do believe that we will all be even more confused and bewildered at the end of that book!

One more thing, I'm not a Ron hater. He is by far one of my most favorite characters. He is very real to me. If the 'ship does happen, then that's great. Whatever JKR writes, I will praise because I'm sure there is a reason for it and it will be brilliant.

Oh, and RHers, can you please come up with more evidence besides the JKR quotes, the "because they are perfect for each other" excuse, and the LAME "Opposites attract"mumbo-jumbo.
Please!!!

Cheers :smooch:

Max

February 7th, 2003, 6:43 am

Well said, BabyMars.

I agree that R/Hr supporters should give more conclusive proof that Ron/Hermione happens.

Mad Eye Mike

February 7th, 2003, 7:14 am

Originally posted by lleyki
However, my feeling is too many R/Hr shippers see that pair as a victory for Ron over Harry or as some prize that Ron has finally won in his other miserable life. That bothers me because it objectifies Hermione as some kind of consolation prize and very little account is ever taken of her feelings.

Someone said that one of the things they loved about GOF was the quiet way in which the friendship and relationship between H/Hr was developed and explored. I agree, the sad thing is, so many got caught up with Ron's tantrums and the feelings he seemed to have for Hermione that they didn't notice this at all. If they noticed, they brushed it off as insignificant signs of friendship and/or H/Hr being boring. Of course, no childish arguments mean boring, no passion. A relationship based on love, respect and loyalty couldn't possibly last. Btw, Harry and Hermione are passionate. Read their arguments carefully.

I agree with a lot of what you said. I remember posting that what I loved in GoF was the H/Hr relationship "maturing" so to speak. My favorite scene in the whole book was when Hermione brought Harry some toast the morning after Ron got angry & stopped talking to him. Their little walk & talk outside the castle was a nice piece of character development and a very sweet scene IMO. Most R/Hr shippers act as though Ron should "GET" Hermione as some sort of consolation prize for being poor, which is unbelievably insulting to the Hermione character. I'm sure most people on these boards mean well for Ron, but you would think his life is a contest against Harry and Hermione is the prize waiting to be won - very disturbing sentiments sometimes from the R/Hr shippers.

It's possible that JKR is going to develop Ginny so much in OotP that she could possibly become a love interest for Harry, but again, most people act as though Ginny should be awarded Harry just because she has a crush on him. And whose to say that Ginny will live long enough, as we all know that a "Harry fan" will die in OotP. A Ginny death would hit the Weasley family [especially Ron] very, very hard.

Back on topic…one of my many problems with GoF was Ron's behavior towards Hermione. He was presented as being very possessive of her [typical teenage boy, yet wrong nonetheless]. Now lleyki, you said that Ron’s feeling for Hermione probably aren’t as strong as he thinks they are, that it’s possible he was just acting out at seeing one of his best friends branching off into another relationship since he probably thought that it’d always only be the three of them. That’s possible, but not probable. Only because JKR said: “Yes, something's "going on," but Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy.” Now I’ll be the first to admit that boys – especially at that age – are thick, but surely JKR wouldn’t say this if Ron were just upset with thinking the three amigos were breaking apart. A typical teenage boy is someone who has feelings but doesn’t admit or realize them yet for any amount of reasons. I normally love the Ron character, but not how he was portrayed in GoF.

Personally I’d rather see a romance develop between two characters that have a deep, loving & respectful friendship than the cliché romantic prerequisite of “Deep down we really like each other, but since we don’t know how to show it, we just fight all the time instead.” In every single movie, show & book, I’ve always seen that relationship presented because supposedly, that’s the one with the passion – nonsense. A relationship where the two people support & respect each other contains as much passion as one where the two people argue all the time. The fact that we as a society always present the loving relationship as being “boring” says more about us as people than it does about that particular relationship. And we wonder why there are so many broken families? Maybe it was because the parents were always so “passionate” with each other that they didn’t communicate.

In my personally opinion, I think the kiss Hermione gave Harry will weigh on Harry’s mind a bit in OotP. If nothing else, Harry DID take notice that Hermione kissed him and that she had never done that before. If he had absolutely no feelings whatsoever for her [as the R/Hr shippers say], then he wouldn’t have even put a second thought to it. It wasn’t one of those “It doesn’t mean anything” moments. From what I’ve seen, JKR doesn’t put any “throwaway moments” in the HP series. Everything means something – if not now, then later.

However, my gut feeling is that JKR is really going to put the H/Hr/R relationship through the wringer in the next two books [5-6] and half of book 7 before they get better. Of course, you don't have to be a genius to figure that one out – I guess that’s why I did. :p

LizardLaugh

February 7th, 2003, 9:04 am

Some good points, BabyMars. On a first read, I was leaning towards a R/Hr ship. On a second read through, I was pretty neutral, it could go either way. After reading through the whole series for a third time, I've come solidly down into the H/Hr camp. I think a R/Hr ship could be written really well, I love Ron too. I just think the H/Hr works on deeper levels. R/Hr is a very surface thing. Opposites attract, love/hate, the bickering. It seems wild and passionate on the surface, but it doesn't have the substance an H/Hr relationship would. I wouldn't be opposed to the R/Hr ship, I just prefer the other.

I think what is 'going on' with Ron and Hermione is pretty obvious. Ron has a huge crush on her and doesn't want to admit. I do not think Hermione feels the same way. If she likes either of the boys, it is Harry. In fact, I think it is Harry. Harry obviously doesn't have feelings for Hermione beyond friendship. At least not yet ;)

SiriusBlack

February 7th, 2003, 9:09 am

Oh man, people are all turning against Ron. Hermione adn Harry?? I still don't believe it no matter how good those posts are. I'll just have to wait for the book to find out. I still see all the reason for Ron. And I firmly believe that quote from JKr, that Ron and Hermione are between a relationship but Ron doesn't know yet. Typical boy. And I think the reason he doesn't know is beause he was thinking that Krum, his idol is caring about Hermione but not even looking at him(not in a sense of gay). But the truth is that he's jealous of Krum hanging around with Hermione.

SaRaH 23 HP

February 7th, 2003, 9:42 am

Originally posted by Mad Eye Mike
I agree with a lot of what you said. I remember posting that what I loved in GoF was the H/Hr relationship "maturing" so to speak. My favorite scene in the whole book was when Hermione brought Harry some toast the morning after Ron got angry & stopped talking to him. Their little walk & talk outside the castle was a nice piece of character development and a very sweet scene IMO. Most R/Hr shippers act as though Ron should "GET" Hermione as some sort of consolation prize for being poor, which is unbelievably insulting to the Hermione character. I'm sure most people on these boards mean well for Ron, but you would think his life is a contest against Harry and Hermione is the prize waiting to be won - very disturbing sentiments sometimes from the R/Hr shippers.

It's possible that JKR is going to develop Ginny so much in OotP that she could possibly become a love interest for Harry, but again, most people act as though Ginny should be awarded Harry just because she has a crush on him. And whose to say that Ginny will live long enough, as we all know that a "Harry fan" will die in OotP. A Ginny death would hit the Weasley family [especially Ron] very, very hard.

Really good posts Mad_eyed_mike and Babymars!!
i agree on with both of you...
Mad_eyed I agree with your point that the R/Hr shippers are acting like Ron is finally beating Harry-by getting Hermione-this dosen't sound right in several ways:
1st:it destroy Hermione's character it makes her look like a thing instead of person...also are we sure she even likes Ron or Harry?

2nd: It also is destructive to Harry's personatly also..It make him seem like he thinks he is all that and Ron is just a fan...it makes him seem like a...uh...Draco Malfoy...someone who thinks there better then everybody else because they have more money, better looks, populatity, fame ect....It would be a very sad thing if the main characters personatly is destroyed by our missjudgement

3rd: It would also destroy Ron's character also!! It would make him look like some jealous, tantrum throwing 3 year old...It would damage the loving Ron we know and love!! Instead of him being Harry's bestfriend he will think he is a sidekick or he is the top player because he got the girl and that wouldn't be fair for his, Hermiones or Harry's personatly or character...

The same thing goes for your point on Ginny..If Ginny and Harry just get together because we want them to that won't be fair to either of them. Harry should follow his heart...also Ginny will most likely fell really heartbroken if Harry and her breakup remeber she has liked him since we've known her!! The very 1st time we met her she liked him...If they break up most likely Ginny will not be able to move on it will make her character even more withdrawn...

Also as BabyMars pointed out that Harry and Ron only used Ginny and Hermione as a last resort and that wasn't fair to either of them...If you think about it maybe this shows that Harry and Ron don't like either---Harry and Ron botyh couldn't find dates so the decided to asks there last resorts...Hermione and Ginny and when they got turned down they were upset...Also this isnt very fair to either of them...being a last resort dosen't make them feel special....Atleast Krum and Neville noticed them enough to ask them NOT as a last resort...Also Ron and Harry both mainly noticed Hermione at the yule ball-only when she had fixed her hair up...and but on fancy robes-this isnt' fair to Hermione I think that if Ron and Harry truluy liked her they would have noticed each other more.. I'm not fully dismissing the idea because it is most likley in 4 and up the boys notice the girls and vice versa...

Anyways really good points BabyMars and Mad_eyed_Mike

And Sirus I don't think everyone is turning on Ron I think they just want the R/Hr to see the other view same with the H/Hr and G/H I think we all need to see the possible angles and then diecide:D

I defiantly think that Fred and Angelia should hook-up!! But if Fred and Angelia get together who do you think should George go with??
By the way who did George go to the ball with??:??: that I dont no!

Max

February 7th, 2003, 11:43 am

Good points, Mad Eye Mike and Sarah.

When I read the first book, I liked Ron's character -- he was a caring friend who always looked out for Harry and Hermione. No problems then; the trio's friendship seemed (note the tense) indestructable. The same was true for the second book, and I was surprised at how brave Ron really was in the third book. However, when I read the fourth book (a very enjoyable read), I began to question how long the trio would last. I began to take into consideration if the trio would just self-destruct (an imcomprehensible proposition before Goblet of Fire was released). Now, this is perfectly understandable; Harry, Ron and Hermione are entering their teenage years. Aside from the usual: Ron and Harry start to notice girls, etc., I found that Harry and Hermione are much more mature than Ron.

Ron just keeps going on and on, whining that he's so poor and that he's always overshadowed by his brothers. This is proven by the fact that Ron said something along the lines of, "It must be good, not noticing when a pocketful of Galleons vanishes" after he found out that the money he gave Harry to pay for the omniculars disappeared. Harry said himself that he didn't mind at all, but Ron just keeps complaining about how poor he is.

I have the feeling that Hermione is falling for Harry, but doesn't realise it yet. There is proof for this all over GoF. These clues may not be as obvious as those of Ron liking Hermione, but they're clues nonetheless. One clue (one of the more obvious ones, mind you) is Krum telling Harry that Hermione talks about him a lot. Another one is that after Hermione taught Krum how to pronounce her name properly, she looked up at Harry and grinned. Did she look at Ron? No. Did she give any sign that she even acknowledged Ron's presence? No. Even though JK wrote that Hermione was ignoring even her food when she was talking to Krum, she wrote that Hermione grinned at Harry.

As for Harry's feelings, it seems as if he notices Hermione a bit, but still has a crush on Cho. Besides, Harry and Ron were both watching Hermione and Krum dance before Harry noticed Cho and Cedric dancing. And as someone said, Harry wondered if Hermione would mind if the elves had some extra work preparing the food for the ball.

Harry and Hermione is very probable, but I don't think that it'll happen till late in the 6th book or early in the 7th book.

lleyki

February 7th, 2003, 5:30 pm

Okay a few things;

There is something I've seen one too many times by some R/Hr shippers that has really bothered me. A number of them have just mentioned with NO textual support, that Hermione felt bad Ron didn't ask her immediately and went with Krum to make Ron jealous. I ABSOLUTELY disagree with that and can't believe that some people would truly think that about Hermione. After four books we should understand these kids well enough to know their character. That idea is insulting to who Hermione is. It makes her seem manipulative and in Ron's word 'a scarlet woman'. Is that really how some of you see Hermione?

Look, while I see no future for Hermione and Krum; I did like the whole manner in which the kids branched out in GOF. I have always found that these kids have been too locked in their little trio. It would have been too easy to have Hermione go with Ron and Ginny with Harry. Too convenient. I liked that she went with Krum and Harry with Parvati and Ron with Padma, etc. That said I truly think that Hermione did like Krum. It may not have been some deep love and romance; but she did like him. Keep in mind again that by school conventions Hermione has always been the nerd. The girl too busy in a book to care about boys and her looks. Now here's this older boy, who is famous and girls are dying for. He shows interest in you. You, who by many accounts have never been considered 'the pretty girl' of the year. Do you'll truly think Hermione wasn't flattered, touched and genuinely interested. Keep in mind again that she is ONLY 14, and really only coming into her own as a girl.

Okay so to make my point. I do not believe for a second that Hermione was trying to make Ron jealous in any way by going to the dance with Krum. Besides Hermione seemed truly shocked by Ron's attitude towards her at the dance. We are told how she stares at Harry in a sort of questioning way and Harry shrugs because he didn't know what Ron was so upset about either. Okay I had to get that off my chest because I've seen that posted alot and it really bothers me. You can like R/Hr just fine but there's no need to put in things that aren't there.

One more thing I just read; Sarah said how Ginny and Hermione were both treated as last resorts and I completely agree. However, to be fair to Harry, he never asked Ginny and didn't treat either as a last resort. Honestly that was all Ron. Bad enough he made Hermione upset, then he just assumes Ginny is available without asking her(even though she was right there) and tells her to go with Harry. Honestly between Hermione, Ginny and then his behaviour towards Padma at the dance; Ron was making offending a girl an artform.

Okay something about H/Hr and the whole subtlety of their relationship in GOF. Reading Turambar's post about the eagle made me remember something. While Hermione is arguing with Ron at the dance she informs him that Krum had never asked her one single thing about Harry. The 'one single thing' is highlighted in italics. Now at the time we probably all brushed it off because let's face it, just before that statement Ron had accused her of helping Krum to win over Harry and giving him information about Harry. However, later we are informed by Krum that Hermione talks about Harry alot. Now if Krum has never asked her anything, why should Harry's name come up at all? Why should she be talking about him so much?

I've said this once before, I honestly don't think Hermione was even aware she was talking about Harry, which is telling in itself. Okay I know some of us have passed those early teen years a long time ago; but think back when you liked someone. You always found a way to work them into every conversation, most times not even being aware of it.

Oh so Mad Eye was the one who mentioned the development of the friendship and relationship between H/Hr. Good point. Anyway continuing on that idea, there are other little things I noticed in GOF;
Harry asking Hermione for Crookshanks when he got to the Burrow. I thought it was sweet that he asked about her pet. Honestly until he asked, I hadn't even remembered Crookshanks.

The way they seem to know what the other's thinking at times. When Harry was wondering how they'd all fit into the tents and immediately looked at Hermione, while she was wondering the same thing.

I loved how they built the tents together. Granted they're the only muggles, I just thought it was sweet.

I love when Hermione is laughing at the referee and turns to Harry to show him. Again I just thought it was cute. The discussion about her hair was interesting too. I'm curious to know who brought it up, but that was sweet.

One of my favourite scenes though is when she comes to get him after discovering Dobby. The article suggesting why she isn't the right girl for Harry says how she shoves and pulls him and that none of these actions suggest romance and tenderness. However, that wasn't entirely true. Hermione was excited and impatient to show Harry Dobby. When Harry stops her because he realizes they're going into the kitchen; Hermione is described at this point with her eyes shining with excitement and anticipation. Her whole behaviour, from rushing up towards the common room, suggests someone who is really excited. Now keep in mind this is all because she was going to show Harry that Dobby was now at Hogwarts.

Another of my absolute favourite scenes is after Harry's completed the first task and some of the Gryffindors ask him to open the egg. I find it so cute the way she says that they aren't supposed to help him because that's the rule and he informs her that he was supposed to get past the dragon on his own too. I love the way she smiles almost guiltily. It was sweet.

There are other things but this post is long enough and I'm feeling lazy. I would like to point out before someone responds in that particular way that these points weren't to suggest that H/Hr absolutely will happen. All I was doing was trying to re-affirm the point that there were many signs of this quiet, special bond developing between the two in GOF that many people didn't seem open to accepting.

One last thing. Do some R/Hr shippers actually read the posts suggesting other ideas or just always automatically assume that someone isn't a R/Hr shipper; then they must hate Ron? The fact is I don't hate Ron at all and a number of the posters who put forward mature arguments for why they may not support R/Hr don't either. Saying someone isn't right for someone isn't the eqivalent to saying you hate them. I never hated Noel on 'Felicity', I just didn't think he was right for her. I'm so sick of the argument and accusation that people are ganging up on Ron. Besides, it might help if so many R/Hr shippers didn't make the couple some sort of victory and prize won for Ron. One last thing, I don't want to offend anyone who is a member of that Sugarquill place but I always find it amusing how some R/Hr shippers act like people are being so mean to Ron when they don't support that pair; because I'm sorry I visited that place once and I have never seen a more condescending bunch of people. H/Hr supporters are always ridiculed and patronized and all myself and so many others like Turambar try to show is that there's no reason to be because there is no solid proof in the novels of R/Hr. Both couples have their evidence. Unfortunately some people refuse to ever see that.

BabyMars

February 7th, 2003, 6:34 pm

Hey Serious Black, I'm not turned against Ron. I actually don't see, at least in this post, too many H/Hers who have "turned against Ron". Can you please justify why you believe that? I honestly have seen more R/Hers diss H/Hers. Sorry, I just was not satisfied with your reply, no hard feelings though. I've read some of your posts and I think they are excellent.

Cheers :smooch:

Turambar

February 8th, 2003, 1:25 am

1) Just to continue in this vein: There's a lot of things to like about Ron but I also don't mind saying I found a lot of his behaviour in GOF totally annoying.
I would like nothing better than to see him gain more confidence and find a suitable girl. I just don't think that girl is Hermione.
That said JKR has made a point of weaving emotional conflict between the trio into her last two books and it's quite likely she will do so again in OOTP.
I don't think Ron has got over his feelings of being overshadowed by Harry or his brooding about being poor. The conversations about the gold disappearing that Max mentioned and about Harry not having any trouble getting someone to take to the ball happened after they repaired their friendship.
With any luck Harry's experiences at the end of GOF have woken Ron up to the fact there's more important things to worry about. There was a little passage near the end of GOF which gives me a bit of hope where Harry talks about the three of them reaching an understanding they didn't need to put into words. It's a bit vague but I thought it might be hinting at more maturity on Ron's part.
There's another hopeful passage I noticed: the bit where Ron gives Dobby his socks and jersey. Ron gets a kick out of being generous and then being praised for being so. That kind of feeling could help steer him away from being too corrosively hooked on his own problems.
One of the problems is we don't have a handle on how Ron and Hermione reacted to Harry suddenly disappearing and then returning with the dead Cedric. If Hermione reacted in as emotional a way to how she did after the first two tasks it's possible that that is what prompted Krum to have his little talk with her, to make her think about her feelings.

2) Lleyki is quite right to point out that Hermione didn't go with Krum just to make a point to Ron.
I think if you have a reputation for being a certain way, in Hermione's case an academically-driven not notably social student, it's quite hard to break out of that mould if you get to the point where you feel like making a few changes. When she fixes her teeth she mentions she's wanted to do it for a while, the curse gives her the excuse to get it done.
In the same way the ball is the perfect way to say, I'm not going to be pigeonholed, I can be different. It's easier to do it at a ball than suddenly turn up in class with your hair noticeably different inviting comment if you're socially reserved.
Hermione has just been noticed by a boy for the first time and not only that been told that she's special by him. She's also thinking about other things than her studies and best friends. There's clearly signs she's growing up and wanting to expand her horizons a bit: develop what being Hermione means.
So I think she was acting on her new-found confidence. As Lleyki said, the key thing was she was shocked at Ron's reaction.

3) I'm beginning to think as well, Max, that Hermione has fallen for Harry. I used to think her feelings were too difficult to tell but I've become convinced that lots of little things add up that way. I think for most of GOF she is unaware of it: like the boys, remember, she has to get used to seeing them as the opposite sex rather than just friends. She's also aware of Harry's crush on Cho.
The key one, as has been mentioned, is those two key quotes if you place them side by side: Hermione says Krum did not ask about Harry and Krum says she talks about Harry a lot.
Another one is the fact that she did find Krum appealing to a certain extent and there are obvious similarities between Krum and Harry. Both famous, quidditch players, brave, athletic, dark haired, skinny (!), with a tendency to be emotionally withdrawn and keep their thoughts to themselves. Both with loner tendencies. Krum is a bit sad: he doesn't appear to have any friends, just hangers on. Harry really only has Ron, Hermione and Hagrid.
Then there's the way she really enjoys Harry's achievements which is a lovely attitude to have. It's obvious from lots of text that she admires and respects him. And as has been pointed out there's a lot of intensity in their arguments and in her reactions to when Harry is in danger.
I'm not totally sure about the kiss. Yes I think it's important because she had never done it before and Harry noticed. I also think kissing rather than hugging shows a) she put some thought into it b) she wanted him to notice because she hadn't done it before and c) a bit of effort on her part to show affection in front of people. I may be wrong but I think her previous hugs for them were when others were not around (the one after the first task was in a tent). But after all that had happened wouldn't her primary purpose have been to show him "I'm here for you, you can count on me" rather than making a personal statement "I'm keen on you". Maybe she felt that enough time had passed after Cedric's death to be able to do something to make Harry think about her, give him something to think about over summer. She had, afterall, felt she could bring up what she did to Rita on the train journey. I'm really not sure.
I wanted to touch on Max's comment about the future of the trio but this is already too long.

Mad Eye Mike

February 8th, 2003, 3:34 am

Originally posted by Turambar
And as has been pointed out there's a lot of intensity in their arguments and in her reactions to when Harry is in danger.

I must've missed them, but can anyone tell me exactly when Harry & Hermione have had a real argument? I remember him being a little angry with her in PoA when she had his Firebolt taken away, but other than that, I don't remember these intense arguments people say they've had.

Also, there's something else to consider, when Harry & Hermione are talking, Harry makes an offhand comment about how when he breaks his neck, Ron will finally be happy [Ch: Weighing of the Wands]. Hermione quickly jumps on Harry & says "That's not funny, that's not funny at all." It also made special notice that she looked extremely anxious. Now I know that she was worried about Harry being in the tournament & that someone else had put his name in the goblet, but she was also aware that with Dumbledore around, nothing bad would ever really happent to Harry - or at least they've always thought.

Hermione has always cared for Harry as a friend, but as she gets older, she may discover that she cares for him much more than she thought. It's like I said before, sometimes the love of your life is right in front of your face & you don't see it for any number of reasons.

Turambar

February 8th, 2003, 3:58 am

Harry and Hermione argue in a different way to Ron and Hermione. R/Hr bicker and attack each other's ideas/values. Ron gets competitive and Hermione's always ready to stand up for herself.
H/Hr don't have rows as such but occasionally their conversations get intense, they get passionate, they snap at each other. For instance the time turning in POA, training for the first task in GOF, the chapter about Rita's article on Hagrid, the bit you just quoted about breaking his neck, the bit when Hermione suggests they could meet Ron in Hogsmeade.

Mad Eye Mike

February 8th, 2003, 7:42 am

Originally posted by SaRaH 23 HP
I defiantly think that Fred and Angelia should hook-up!! But if Fred and Angelia get together who do you think should George go with??

I don't think it was mentioned who George went with & I have no idea who he should get as a girl. All I know is the scene where Fred shows Harry how easy it is to get a date to the Yule Ball by shouting his invitiation to Angelina across the Great Hall was hysterical! I also loved how it said Fred & Angelina were hogging the floor while they were dancing. Basically in two or three sentences, JKR was able to develop a nice little connection between those two. Hopefully she'll expand on that in OotP - even if it's slight.

Unfortunately, Fred, George & Angelina may not appear much - or in Angelina's case at all - in OotP as GoF was their 7th & final year at Hogwarts if I'm correct.

Max

February 8th, 2003, 1:36 pm

Yes, Fred and Angelina may hook up. If I'm not mistaken, they're the same age, right? George ... hmmm ... well, he may hook up with Katie or Alicia.

Not to make this post too short, we've seen in book 2 and 4 that JK has no problem with her characters making out with each other. In book 4, Snape was blasting apart rosebushes, and in one of them, a girl called Fawcett and another boy were hidden in it. Wonder what they were doing in there ... ;)

Harry also noticed that Roger and Fleur were 'rather busy' in a rosebush.

bluemagic

February 8th, 2003, 4:47 pm

This is a reply to some posts ..well...mostly lleyki.`s. Oh! This is gonna be a long one.

1. My last post is about myself as a reader…my own personal way of views which I believe I wrote it in a very OBJECTIVE and PLEASANT way. I understand , I stated even very “basic facts ” which I feel there`s a need for me to write them. It`s not that I don`t consider the people who are currently posting here but I also consider the people who have posted here before and the people who are just reading past and current posts. Whoever they are or what age they are. I think, it`s only a matter of how you take it. But if you feel insulted which I`m wondering why well I didn`t mean to. Trust me also, I KNOW exactly an insulting or offending post that is why I`m VERY careful with the words I use and refraining myself to write anything unnecessary or unpleasant comments and most especially critizing any person whoever she/he is.

it's wrong to suggest that because of that we can't apply human behaviour to analyzing them.
I understand what you`re saying but I *think* you`re the one who got me wrong. What I have written in my previous post was we`re discussing about NOT real life relationships .and this does not necessarily going to follow real life patterns. I used the word CLUES for identifying which I believe is VERY generalize, open and not limited. I gave only an *exagerrated* example. Therefore, I wasn`t suggesting that we can`t apply human behaviour or human thinking to analyze them.

I hope no one thinks that I'm criticizing anyone who uses quotes by JK and literary criticisms to form their opinions...As a Lit major

I really hope too that no one thinks that you`re critizing anyone who uses JKR quotes or literary criticisms nor anyone who`ve actually have written any outer theories. But I just want to CLEAR something… JKR quotes or in serious manner literary criticisms or any OUTER THEORIES such as psychoanalysis or philosophy or historical research (as long as it has to be heavily supported by textual examples in HP books) are very objective tools used to SUPPORT one`s interpretation based on their understanding of the books ….to make one`s interpretation MORE evident. and NOT to form one`s opinion from it. I believe there is a BIG difference between “to support just to make one`s interpretation more evident” and to form an opinion”. I just hope too that you`ll see the difference. If you refer it as “to form an opinion or to draw an opinion from ”, you are already implying that these people depend only their interpretation of the books based on what have JKR said or results of outer theories.

I agree with you that HP books are brilliantly written. There are really easy to understand. But to interpret it is ANOTHER thing, like any other books. People can simply form different interpretations in a given situation in HP. Just like for example during the Harry/Ron fight. (GillyAnn explained it very well.)Why? Because people have different experiences, values, beliefs, age is also factor etc.etc People can give the same interpretation like JKR`s but it doesn`t mean they depend on her words. It can happen that they just think the same. Perhaps, they value the same things. If I didn`t get a clear interpretation in one event, I don`t expect everybody to be the same. Perhaps, they just see what I don`t see or vice versa.

What now I`m trying to say, for readers there are lots of brilliant and different interpretations but for JKR there is only ONE interpretation. Since we are predicting, for me, it`s VERY important to consider the “authorial intent” or “trust the author stuff “ to make the interpretations more evident. Personally, I am not just reading a story but looking for forshadowing also.

HP discussion is just a hobby for me. Lucky that I`ve met professional people like me who are HP fans too…They`re very cool..mostly writers. Were able to share`and exchange lots of objective insights, tools, JKR quotes etc . But I also love discussing with wonderful young readers too. I`m just one of those making HP as an outlet. Good thing :sigh:no more heavy school works for me like in your case. I`ve already finished my University studies majoring in Chemistry and I`ve already completed my academics in my Masters in Computer Studies. I think, I can`t stand anymore numerous thesis,experiments, programs at this point of time or else I will not be here discussing about HP. :D

That's my point that I have said over and over; WE DON'T KNOW HER AT ALL.

First, I wasn`t implying in my previous post that anybody here is saying that the trios are perfect. In fact, I`ve even mentioned that they are already well rounded and we can see their flaws and faults.
I accepted your position that “You don`t know Ginny at all” or she is too one-dimensional. But I`m on a quite different position when Ginny`s character is concern. First, I would say, I don`t know about her enough. Second, about being too one dimensional, I would just say, true and yet, not true. Yes, we don`t know much about *her*, but we know a lot about her family, her background, her most traumatic experience etc. So when Ginny does finally steps in, her background will already be there waiting for her. Again, I`m not convincing you or anybody here but just showing that Ginny`s rare appearance and actions, do show us some things about her character, even if she is till vaguely defined as a whole. I will say it again that she`s not yet a fully developed but I believe JKR has laid ample ground work to let her become one.

However, I can't say that about Ginny and it's a little ridiculos when you consider that she goes to Hogwarts and is in Gryffindor and is only a year younger than the three
Well, it will really be *ridiculous* if you will ONLY consider or depend on the few examples I have mentioned before about her and not to think or consider about her other snippets, her actions and the things said about her *on your own.* Or are you requesting me to write them all? Actually, it will only take up a five page word document to sum up ALL Ginny`s lines and the things said about her`(including with that of all "personalized" interactions with Harry). But believe me, she has much more of a personality than most of the other minor characters.

2. Thank you for bringing up Parvati defending Harry so at least I can show more the significance of Ginny`s sense of character in F & B. I would say it again, this is NOT about supporting H/G but Ginny`s personality. I would say also that this is NOT an issue of who is braver Parvati or Ginny for “there are all kinds of courage”. I will just simply say which is more significant.
In HPSS, Parvati who was eleven then when defends Harry`s actions even though they weren`t close friends to Prof. McGonagall considering the fact that she`s aware how strict is Prof Mcgonagall.
Whereas
In COS, Ginny was eleven then too when defends Harry`s sense of character even though they weren`t also close friends to Draco considering the fact that she`s NOT aware of the identity or what kind of person Draco is ( only we the readers, know about Draco`s bad and cruel character based from HPSS ). What Ginny only knows that Draco, whoever he is, insulting Harry and she must reprimand him.
Her actions became even more signnifcant since the author notably expressed it that it was the first time she had spoken in front of Harry and she was glaring to Malfoy.
It is a canon fact that Ginny likes Harry. I think the best example of Ginny NOT liking Harry just for his fame is in F &B, the FIRST words he hears her say - "Leave him alone, he didn't want all that!" Thats sums it up.
I am not convincing anybody about Ginny`s courage but the significance of her action is how I see it…...the way the author showed it.

people are forgetting that Harry wasn't remembering Voldemort hurting him personally but instead hearing his parents's pain.
The Dementors scene:
I wll accept again your opinion, if you see very little H/G here but I will just explore my explanation here why it`s VERY MUCH H/G .

Ginny is said to be “looking nearly as bad as Harry felt”. These are “key words” in “The Dementor” which I think is very significant since it. is already a sign that Ginny can understand what Harry has been through like no other person his or her age. Not even Ron and Hermione.Why? She too had to face Lord Voldemort at the age of eleven, making her the only child besides Harry to have ever done so. What Harry was remembring is NOT about Voldermort`s hurting him personally but the time when Voldermort was trying to kill him when he was one year old. He hears his mother`s voice pleading to Voldermort not to kill him and take her, kill her instead but Voldermort`s voice is telling her to move away. I`ve mentioned before that both Ginny and Harry have “horrors in their past”. For Harry, his parents were murdered and the most evil wizard in the world was trying to kill him and For Ginny, being possessed by an enchanted diary owned by most evil wizard in the world himself is up there on the list of traumatizing events.

if Harry would connect with anyone based on that dementor- train incident I'd say it'd be Neville. I mean doesn't it seem pretty likely that Neville would be thinking of his parents' pain by Voldemort too?

About Neville Longbottom….. yes he is also affected but it is totally incomparable with that of Harry and Ginny. We know that when
“Harry looked around the bright compartment. Ginny and Neville looked backed at him, both very pale.”
( Sorry, but I can`t find any reason for this scene suggesting that that they are leaning close to each other)

Anyway, Nevile is not an orphan. In GOF, We found out that his parents are both in St: Mungos`s hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries. Neville`s parents were tortured by people for information about Voldemort`s whereabouts after he lost his powers. They were NOT tortured by Voldermort himself.

If the author wish Harry to connect more with Neville and not Ginny, JKR should have not let Ginny came back to the compartment. Second, She should have written it`s Neville who was looking nearly as bad as Harry felt BUT JKR instead wrote Ginny who was looking nearly as bad as Harry felt.. Why Ginny? To justify and see the connection to what had happened in COS incident. Is it necessarily for me to describe the “sexual imagery” JKR had created in COS scene for H/G ? I will just say that JKR is unconsciously putting in our minds that “classical romantic scenario” between Harry and Ginny in COS scene so when they are no longer too young and she pulls them up, it will not be completely shocked for the readers. And not to forget the fact that Harry saves Ginny`s life , creating a magical bond in the process. As what Prof. Dumbledore said when one wizard saves another wizard`s life, it creates a certain bond between them….whether they (Harry and Ginny) or the readers like it or not. I believe, It`s is actually a HUGE foreshadowing on JKR's part to make Ginny Riddle`s victim and then write “Ginny who was looking nearly as bad as Harry felt” in Dementors scene especially since only a few rare people actually understand Harry's feelings. I will say it again that the only reason I can think of why JKR is limiting Ginny and Harry`s interactions though they have already "few meaningful interactions" in 4 books is for Harry NOT to develop sisterly/ brotherly feelings for Ginny. I`m already looking forward to read book 5.
Besides by POA, Harry was referring to the day he lost the quiddicth match as the worst of his life.
Sorry it wasn`t.

Anyway, I`ve mentioned before that one of literary techniques is use of vocabulary.
I`ve mentioned too about unique and wonderful description of Ginny like no other characters but I will now concentrate on Harry`s feelings when Ginny is captured in COS . “This was the WORST he had ever FELT.” And most notably “Relief - warm, sweeping, glorious relief - swept over Harry.”
These are pretty POWERFUL emotions which I think is significant that Harry cares about Ginny as a person to NOT to explain to Ron, his best friend…Ginny`s brother.
I can't even see it as being worse than other events like knowing Cedric was dead, and seeing Voldemort come back Did Harry felt this powerful feelings to other person or events? No. This powerful feelings were meant only for Ginny.

To make it more interesting for you:

The ONLY part in all HP books where you can find “closest” with that of “worst” description of Harry`s day and Harry`s feelings is in GOF during the Ron and Harry fight. It was actually stated there in Chapter 18 p 324, even mentioning the comparison of Harry`s worst day and feelings with that of COS situation..
“The next few days were some of Harry`s worst at Hogwarts.….. “

It`s the time when Hermione , unfortunately did a poor job in cheering up and giving Harry emotional support DESPITE of her good intentions. Why? Because it is Ron`s purpose in Harry`s life to give him the emotional support. What I`m trying to say now is when Ron and Harry made up, Harry`s powerful emotions in COS is NOT as the same as in GOF. It`s already a TELLING.
I`ve already described in my old, old posts about COS is a strange book and its format is different from other 3. Books 1,3,4 is about Voldermort returning to power. Surprisingly, later JKR said “key things” happened in book 2 and she had discovered that several readers thought COS was the weakest of the books, and this bothered her because, as she said (adapted) COS sets the ground work and provides subtle clues for what is going to happen in latter books.
It was also in COS, when JKR made a clearer establishment in building up RH though she did some already in HPSS. While everybody is saying that H/G is perfect and sweet, IMHO, it is an angsty ship. Anyway, even if Ginny is not yet fully develop as a character, JKR managed somehow to let her grow up slowly off camera from a squealing little girl with big brown eyes in COS to a girl in GOF who can now mange to say “shut up” to Harry and even turned down the chance to be with him despite of the fact that her “4 year old feeling” is still there for him. It is easy to drop a Neville Longbottom , a person who is used to disappointment. But she displays her integrity and generosity in that scene.
Okay the point about Victorian Boarding schools is interesting
Regarding Victorian literature with male homosocial themes, I suggest
“nineteenth century books” about guys who like to hang out and be manly together. Aside from Victorian ,I`ve read that HG is also more of Elizabethan story. Basically, HG is patented from 18th-19th century convention.

I hope I can find time to post again sooner to be involved in R/H and H/H discussion since it`s the most popular topic here. I know I still *need* to explain something. This is all for now. Happy reading to all and I hope everybody were able to bear this. Have a nice day:)

Good luck to your studies, Lleyki!

This is Bluemagic just wishing to defend the proposition that JKR is a brilliant writer..now signing off!:sigh:

SaRaH 23 HP

February 8th, 2003, 5:16 pm

Oh my goodness Blue's back!! Heehee!!! Blue when are you publishing your first book!! I didn't even bother reading the whole thing!:sigh:

And I though lleyki's and Turambars posts were long!!:wow:

Goodness gracouis!! We might as well detacate the whole thread to you!!:rotfl:

Well HI!! Anyways I have missed you!!! Lol I can see you had alot of things bottled into you!!

And Max or Mad_eyed I think one of you said it that we may not see much of Fred,George or Angelia!! I hope we do exceppcially Fred and George it would be such a shame if we didnt because they are so funny and exciting!!

Mad Eye Mike

February 8th, 2003, 6:02 pm

Originally posted by SaRaH 23 HP
And Max or Mad_eyed I think one of you said it that we may not see much of Fred,George or Angelia!! I hope we do exceppcially Fred and George it would be such a shame if we didnt because they are so funny and exciting!!

It was me who said that. I'm sure if Harry visits the Burrow he'll run into F & G, but they'll no longer be students at Hogwarts which is where I'm assuming the books setting will once again be.

BabyMars

February 8th, 2003, 6:52 pm

I have another thought... :scared:

I've noticed that quite a few R/Hers seem to pair H/G up along side them. Can someone PLEASE tell me WHY the heck Ginny would be better suited for Harry rather than Hermione? I honestly don't see how Ginny would be the better match for him. And please don't use the "Oh, then they'd be one big hapy family" excuse.

Excellent post Bluemagic (a bit long though)

Always enjoy your posts Tarumbar and lleyki.

Cheers :smooch:

Dreamprincess288

February 8th, 2003, 10:47 pm

Wow... the posts have been getting really long lately! Well, here's my ideas, which will probably be just as long!:

First of all, I'm not a shipper for H/Hr or R/H so I'm viewing these posts without a prejudged opinion. In the past few posts H/Hr shippers have made some good points that've really got me thinking.

First of all, I think a lot of people are forgetting that Hermione is still with Krum. Most readers are assuming that they are going to break up. I mean, if Hermione goes and visits Krum over the summer maybe they'll really like each other. But then again, say the break up... who to put Hermione with?

My first reaction after GoF was that Hermione and Ron were going to get together. It seemed that Ron really cared for Hermione and that maybe he liked her for more than a friend. And then, of course, R/H shippers have been bringing the J.K. quote about something going on between them. Well, that may be true.... but as J.K. has been known to not completly tell the truth in interviews I would not count that as a reliable source. One thing I remember is reading an interview where J.K. says that she uses a lot of foreshadowing in her books and that a very good reader would be able to figure out what would happen later on in the series. In the past week I've reread all four books while looking for clues and this is what I've come up with:

1) Hermione considers Harry her best friend. I don't think Ron is someone Hermione would have a heartfelt talk about. But at the same time Ron makes Hermione laugh, he stands up for her, and it's very open that he cares about her. On the other hand, when Hermione has a problem, or discovers something the first person she runs to is Harry. It might be because she trusts Harry more because he's never really been in a huge fight with her. When you consider that Harry is Hermione's best friend you have to wonder if a girl would like to go out with her best friend? It may be somewhat akward.

2) Now before the H/Hr shippers say I'm supporting R/H I'll say that I certainly feel that a Harry and Hermione relationship is possible. Both of them get along with each other really well and openly care for each other. During GoF, as someone previously posted, they are constantly smiling at each other, grinning at one another, and showing other subtle signs of affection. But their relationship hasn't really been developed as anything more than friends. I don't think a relationship for them is possible in Book 5 because J.K. would have to show some deeper feelings between Harry and Hermione before anything will happen between them.

3) As for Ron and Hermione.... it is possible that they will go out in the 5th book. Ron's feelings for Hermione have already been forshadowed a little. When I reread GoF I noticed how many times Ron is playfully teasing Hermione. And he's always smiling or grinning when he's teasing. It shows some affection when he teases because it's obvious that he's doing intenionally to get her to smile, laugh, or just loosen up a little. I also found it cute the way both Ron and Harry got so mad at Snape after Draco cursed Hermione's teeth that they were both willing to get a detention, and possibly lose 50 points for her. That might just be out of friendship, or it could mean something more.

4) Now I'm gonna talk about the Yule Ball since it seems to be mentioned quite often in these posts. I really think that Ron feels protective of Hermione, almost as if he's her big brother. He tends to stand up for a lot in front of Snape and he watches out for her. Maybe because she's a girl and a muggle he's more careful in the wizarding world. He also teases her a lot the way a brother would tease a sister. So when he asks her to the ball as the last resort I don't think he intentionally meant to hurt her feelings. He simply never noticed her as someone who could be a girlfriend to someone, and I think since he never noticed her before he never thought that anybody else noticed her. So when he first see's Hermione with Krum he's shocked and probably hurt that his best friend turned him down to go with a celebrity. As a first reaction he was probably upset thinking that Hermione was being shallow. Even more.... how would you feel if your best friend turned you down to go out with someone who pretty much idolize? You'd probably feel hurt and then be angry at the person you idolize because they stole your friend from you. So Ron's angry with his robes, and then he see's Hermione and Krum and gets even angrier. Then finally, he sees how happy Hermione is at the ball. I think that was the last straw for Ron. I mean, first his best friend turns him down for a date, then she shows up with a major celebrity, and then she sits down right infront of him glowing, happy, and having the time of her life. Ron was probably furious that she was happy when he was miserable and he used the excuse of Krum being the enemy so he could indirectly let Hermione know what he was feeling. Then, after the ball he has a small fight with Hermione in the common room but we never learn exactly what was said since Harry wasn't there for most of the argument. I don't think that Ron really realizes his feelings for Hermione until after the ball so I don't think people should say that Ron liked Hermione during the entire 4th book.

5) Okay, lol... lemme wrap this up since it's really long already. My final point is the kiss Hermione gives Harry. I think that the kiss was more friendly, and more because Hermione was grateful that Harry was still alive. I mean, how would you feel if your best friend was almost murdered? And another thing, it's not the first time that Harry's been close to death. But in GoF Harry suffers his worst near-death experience. So I feel that Hermione was extremly grateful, happy, and relieved that Harry was okay and she kisses him goodbye as a mark of saying "thank god you're alright. don't worry, it'll be okay and i'll always be here for you." Some people say that the kiss was a mark of Hermione liking him but I really don't think so. And if you reread the last page of GoF you'll notice that Ron claps his hand on Harry's back when saying bye. Since Ron isn't a girl he doesn't hug or kiss Harry, insted he claps him on his back as a way to deliver the same message that Hermione did by kissing him. As for the fact that Harry noticed that Hermione had never kissed him before... well, of course he's gonna notice! How does someone not notice that their best friend kissed them for the first time? I mean, that doesn't mean that he likes her!

Well.... that's all I have to say... I dunno who I'm leaning towards in this post. I'd be happy with either couple but this just how I feel about different events that are constantly being brought up on this thread.

Turambar

February 8th, 2003, 11:32 pm

Interesting post Dreamprincess. Can I just make a quick point: Hermione didn't 'turn Ron down to go with a celebrity'. She had already been asked to go to the ball by Krum and accepted well before Ron thought of asking her.

Max

February 8th, 2003, 11:52 pm

You've made some good points there, dreamprincess. Not to make this post too long, I'll reply to Bluemagic's post first.

First, I'll state some things that we've all seemed to agree on.

1. The JKR quotes. I think that we've all agreed that we can't use JK's quotes as proof that the ship that you support, be it H/Hr, R/Hr or something else. We've agreed that JK's quotes really don't give anything away, and the meaning of her words can mean different things according to the opinions, views, and personality of an individual.

2. Ron likes Hermione. OK, everyone here seems to agree that Ron likes Hermione (who wouldn't?). This too, however, does not support either ship, though it could be put to many uses by JK in one of the future Harry Potter books. It could be put to many uses, both good and bad. The good: It could be used to make Ron grow up. If Harry and Ron both fall for Hermione, and Ron understands and steps aside, I believe that Harry and Ron's friendship would be strengthened. The bad: Ron may still be the jealous, stubborn person he is and won't budge if the two of them fall for Hermione. This could seriously jeapordize the trio's friendship, and may ultimately lead to the parting of Harry, Ron, and Hermione.

What are your thoughts? I'll continue in a future post.

Dreamprincess288

February 9th, 2003, 12:01 am

Originally posted by Turambar
Interesting post Dreamprincess. Can I just make a quick point: Hermione didn't 'turn Ron down to go with a celebrity'. She had already been asked to go to the ball by Krum and accepted well before Ron thought of asking her.

That's true... what I meant to say was that it seemed like Ron felt that he had been turned down by Hermione because she'd rather go with a "celebrity".

snitch14

February 9th, 2003, 12:18 am

I never really thought of it that way. Intersetin point. :D

Max

February 9th, 2003, 12:26 am

Originally posted by Dreamprincess288
That's true... what I meant to say was that it seemed like Ron felt that he had been turned down by Hermione because she'd rather go with a "celebrity".

Ah, but Hermione didn't really turn down Ron. Ron just felt that he aws turned down. That's more proof that the trio's growing up.

snitch14

February 9th, 2003, 12:29 am

Yes, yes! Now it'll get interestin! Not only is there action and stuff but also hormones kickin' in! (i love that phrase!)

hehe

Max

February 9th, 2003, 12:31 am

OK, let's not get too excited. Harry Potter is first and foremost the story of Harry's life, not a cheesy romance novel, though I'm not saying that there won't be any romance ;)

Anyway, JK said that the characters will find boyfriends and girlfriends eventually.

snitch14

February 9th, 2003, 12:34 am

Yes, but she didn't say ALL of em. And she also didn't say WHO exactly. So it's up to us to find out! Uhh...yea

Max

February 9th, 2003, 12:35 am

How about the possibility of Ginny/Neville?

Turambar

February 9th, 2003, 12:56 am

Just a bit more on your post Dreamprincess:
I was interested that you brought up the issue of possessiveness on Ron's part which I contend was quite a big part of his reaction. Also you might be the first person I can think of on this thread to suggest sibling-like feelings in the R/Hr relationship. The way he dealt with Ginny was very big brother-like.
There is a problem, though, looking at Ron's feelings in isolation - just how is Hermione meant to respond to that? Agreed that Ron has suddenly woken up to the fact that one of his best friends is a girl. Agreed that he's angry and confused at the idea that someone else has become interested in her and she has become interested in someone else outside their cosy circle. He then behaves like a total prat because of it.
Is Hermione meant to be so wise and understanding and forgiving that she lets all the stuff about noticeing she's a girl, being wanted as a last resort, fraternising with the enemy etc just slide? She has a right to be angry, she also has a right to have a good time and go to the ball with the person she wants to go with.
The interesting question is how Hermione views Ron's reaction. Does she a) think it means Ron's interested in her but he's too immature to express it properly b) wonder just how meaningful his feelings are when he's also clearly interested in Fleur or c) realise he likes her and wonder how she can maintain her friendship with him because that's all she wants.
I'm suspicious that it is c because they resolve not to talk about their argument and their relationship appears to gradually get back to normal by the end of GOF. Hermione avoids sparking another confrontation with him by refusing to say if she's going to Bulgaria or not. Ron gets over his jealousy of Krum enough to ask for his autograph. If Hermione was as interested in Ron as he is in her she would have got enough of a hint of his feelings to be encouraged to raise the subject of their relationship with him when he had calmed down a bit. She kisses Harry goodbye, surely that was the perfect time to kiss Ron as well if she wanted to encourage him.

snitch14

February 9th, 2003, 12:59 am

Ginny/Neville? It's kinda unlikely cause neither one really likes each other. You know the only reason Ginny went with Neville. And the guy asked her cause he was upset bout Hermione turning him down...

Good guess though. ;D

lleyki

February 9th, 2003, 1:02 am

Early warning, this will be really long. Okay here goes. This is mostly in response to Bluemagic's post;

Blue I didn't say you intended to be condescending. I specifically said that I know you're not trying to be. However, what I said was that constantly defining whatever device or evidence you were going to use; was a little insulting because most of us could figure it out on our own. I didn't mean to make you feel bad or attack you.

Okay I get what you said about the clues and evidence. Really you were pretty clear Blue. This is a book, a work of literature. Meaning while it is based on humans with human character traits; being that it is fictional and literature; attention must be paid to other clues to figure out and understand the text. Things such as metaphors, symbolism, language, etc. I get all that. All I was saying is that being that this is a series, rather than an individual novel like Emma; we can study the characters themselves to get an understanding and clue as to where they're going. We have seen their developments over four books and therefore can get a sense of who they are, which does help in understanding actions and what's to come. It's like how I completely didn't believe that Hermione going with Krum was inspired to make Ron jealous. It was largely because after four books, I have better sense of who Hermione is and it is something that I see out of character for her.

I didnot say some people are using the quotes to form their opinions; although some are and this isn't an assumption. There have been people who only post quotes by JK and say well that absolutely proves this couple will happen and actually say; JK has already said it so it will happen. Even though most of these quotes are open to interpretation. However, I am not accusing you of that Blue. I am very much aware of the fact that you simply use quotes and criticisms to SUPPORT your arguments rather than to PROVE it.

Okay onto the discussion of Ginny. I'm aware that we know her background. However as I've said that's highly due to us knowing Ron so it was certainly easy and convenient. No need to explore the background of the girl our hero will get, just make her the sister of his best friend. Fine, I can accept that. I also hear you about her traumatic experience. However, all this we learned in COS alone. Therefore her since infrequent appearances has added very little to who she is. We've learned very little more of Ginny since COS and that has been my major issue with the character.

Blue actually I have considered ALL of Ginny's appearances and lines and that is exactly how I have come to the conclusion that I know very little of her and that her character needs to grow to me as the reader before I can ever warm to the possibility of her and Harry. That's it and I truly can't see how that is such an unreasonable request. My responses in the last post was in response to the evidence you put forward. I never said I based my opinion on the possibility or lack of, of H/G on your examples and evidence.

People aren't saying that Ginny likes Harry for his fame or I certainly never did. A post of mine a long time ago; I said Ginny liked what Harry represented (and I'm not referring to his fame) rather than who he was. Harry is in many ways the quintissential romance hero; he is brave, tortured, a loner, handsome, athletic, etc. Plus he saved her life for crying out loud. Hell, if I was Ginny I would believe myself in love with Harry too. However, she doesn't know him personally and he doesn't know her either. Do you think Harry and Ginny could say what either of the the other's biggest fear is; their dreams, favourite colour, favourite subject, etc.? Of course not because there's been little to no interaction. Again I am basing my views on the couple as I see them from bks 1-4. Please don't tell me she'll have a bigger role in OOTP, because I haven't read it yet and neither has anyone else here. When we all do I'm sure we'll all have new, more interesting theories on everything.

I'll give you that there is a connection between Harry and Ginny because of that chamber incident. My feeling however, has always been that's why it would have been great to start to establish some friendship or relationship with the two in POA. It was soon after and very little else had happened. However, my feeling is that a relationship tried to establish now based on that would seem like a stretch and a reach to have some way to build a connection between the two since none has been established since COS. Let me see if I can explain this very well; so there's no confusion. I could see how Ginny to this point would still be affected by the chamber and it would still be very important to her. However, we all have to admit that Harry has seen and dealt with alot more horror in his life since COS. Yes, there is that bond because they were both personally attacked by Voldemort. However, that still doesn't put them in the same place emotionally. Harry is dealing with a fully returned Voldemort wanting to kill him, worrying about his godfather, worrying about other people he loves, not knowing who exactly to trust in terms of new people he meets in his life and of course still the death of his parents. Now really do you see Ginny on the same emotional level at all? Yes she knows what it is like to almost be killed by Voldemort but that's it. However, consider someone like Hermione. She knows his fears about his godfather, the anger over how his parents were killed, etc.

I never said Neville was an orphan. However, he is tortured by what his parents has gone through(witness his reaction in the class when he saw the curse used against them) as most people would be. Besides in a sense he is an orphan because in the figurative sense his parents are 'dead'. I got the impression that they are completely lost in their own heads. I mean they don't even know their own child. Also, let me say that I wasn't trying to insinutate that Neville and Ginny would happen. I was simply trying to show the different ways in which that scene could have been interpreted. Okay I can see how mentioning that Ginny looked as bad as Harry might be a suggestive statement. However, I don't agree with the fact that Ginny didn't have to come to the compartment and that therefore suggests something. I could say the same thing for Neville. He didn't have to be in that scene and the fact is Harry hears his mother's pleas. He does hear their pain. It may not be the exact same thing Neville's parents went through, but there is the pain of hearing his parents fear, last moments and in many ways torture. The torture of knowing they were about to be killed and that their baby might. My point is Neville is put in that scene for whatever reason and the next thing we find out in GOF is how Neville's parents were tortured. I'm sure Ginny was placed there for a reason but I believe Neville was too and I think if we're going to place so much emphasis on Ginny's presence we should acknowledge Neville's relevance too.

Again the statement about the worst day of Harry's life was in COS. The boy's best friend's sister was captured and possibly going to die. Harry himself says he didn't know what to tell Ron because he couldn't see how Ginny would survive. He couldn't do anything and was feeling completely helpless. We all know how he hates feeling helpless. I honestly saw that statement as Harry's feeling on the situation rather than the person involved. Meaning I'm sure had it been Hermione in the chamber Harry would be feeling the same. This had nothing to do with his personal feelings for Ginny. I assume the relief was when he found her alive. Tell me honestly how you would feel Blue. Wouldn't you feel incredible relief from having to not tell your best friend that his sister was dead?

Harry never said anything about the events in the chamber in GOF. His words were that the only time he felt worst was when everyone thought he was Slytherin's heir but that at least he had Ron as his friend. There was nothing about the chamber and Ginny so I'm a little confused.

Okay I still don't know what you mean about the novels. I've read such Elizebethan authors as Bronte, Austen, Lawrence and others and I still don't see the correlation, so it might help to give at least one example.

Finally let me say and hopefully we can move on from this because we seem to be going in circles and driving others crazy with these long posts. Blue you continue to show how JK might have been foreshadowing G/H and I'll give that some of your evidence is convincing. My opinion however has always been that JK did a disservice to that pair and us the readers by limiting the character development of Ginny and the interaction between her and Harry. We are left with no sense of chemistry between the two and no sense of a real connection to Ginny the character. All this tension and witty dialogue is placed between Ron and Hermione; yet our very own hero we never even see one real conversation between the girl he's supposed to be with until possibly the fifth book? The fifth book in a series of seven books? That seems pretty weak. Btw, the excuse that we might have started seeing them as a brother/sister doesn't work. There were many ways to have had Ginny and Harry interact without us the readers ever seeing them as a brother/sister pair. Largely since we would never lose sight of the fact that Ginny liked Harry.

Therefore to repeat what I have said over and over and over again; if Ginny is developed and explored in a much greater sense in OOTP, great. If she develops a greater sense of self on her own(with nothing to do with her feelings for Harry); great. i would like to re-interate that the first book I read was COS and contrary to belief I did like H/G. I thought the whole thing was very adorable. However, Ginny seemed to disappear into a stagnant character and I simply found myself getting more and more bored with her with each next book. You're right Blue about her going with Neville telling something about her character. However through that I saw she was sweet and loyal and honestly I always assumed Ginny was. That was nothing too surprising for me. Besides let me remind people; Harry never asked Ginny. Ron just told her to go with him. A girl would really have to have no pride to dump someone who genuinely asked her to lag behind someone that didn't even ask her but was suggested to by her brother. However, it was nice seeing her having a life and hopefully we will see more of that in OOTP.

I'm really sorry to have gone on so long. Most of you'll probably won't read all of it anyway.:)

Expelliorma~

February 9th, 2003, 1:06 am

These are some really interesting points people have raised, although it took me the last hour to read all those long posts. :) They have really left me speechless. I don't know what to think anymore.

She kisses Harry goodbye, surely that was the perfect time to kiss Ron as well if she wanted to encourage him.

To this, I have to say that we don't really know whether Hermione kissed Ron goodbye or not. Since it isn't mentioned, we all are just presuming that she didn't.

Dreamprincess288

February 9th, 2003, 2:33 am

^good point... I never realized that the book never mentions how Hermione says bye to Ron...

SaRaH 23 HP

February 9th, 2003, 3:42 am

Omg!! I would hate lleyki and Blue team up and put all there points together!! It would take up like a millon pages!!

Goodness grief I didn't bother reading it...No offensive!:D I think yours and Blues and all the other people who post LONG posts..I'm just a lazy person and I already know your points are good!! So need to read!!
I probably will end up readong it eventually...

Turambar

February 9th, 2003, 3:44 am

Everyone else is there when Hermione says goodbye to Harry, Ron claps him on the shoulder. Yes they could have said goodbye after Harry goes and it isn't mentioned but considering the earlier R/Hr tension why didn't JKR slip in an obvious R/Hr moment at the end to consolidate the development of that relationship if that's the way it's headed? Instead what you get is a peak in the relationship over the ball and then a gradual tailing off back to normal. Instead she ends with an H/Hr moment.

BabyMars

February 9th, 2003, 3:57 am

Hey DreamPrincess288, uhhhh, are you sure that Krum and Hermione are dating?I've read the book 3 times and I've never gotten that impression. I just thought that they went to the Yule ball together and were friends. He did invite her to Bulgaria, but I really never got the impression that they were boyfriend/girlfriend or that they were even dating. Am I wrong here?? Good post though :)

Cheers :smooch:

GilyAnn

February 9th, 2003, 5:11 am

Originally Posted by BabyMars.

I've noticed that quite a few R/Hers seem to pair H/G up along side them. Can someone PLEASE tell me WHY the heck Ginny would be better suited for Harry rather than Hermione? I honestly don't see how Ginny would be the better match for him. And please don't use the "Oh, then they'd be one big happy family" excuse.

I can answer that on MY OPINION. I don't think they can be a big happy family. In fact I see more problems than happiness in the relationship. I personally like the idea of H/G because I see more possibilities about a balance relationship than anyone else in the book. I don't see the possibility of H/H because I see it as a more: 1. Friendship relationship. One of the facts among many that suggest me this is because she confessed to Harry that she had used liberally amounts of the potion to make her hair sleek for the Yule ball. This tells in my opinion that she feels that she doesn't have to pretend around him. Having the experience of being friends with a boy I don't like and I feel comftable around. I know as a fact that you don't have to pretend around the him you feel free to be yourself and say and do a few things that you would not normally do around other boys. I see Harry and Hermione as (sorry to sound like I am quoting JKR) platonic friendship. If Harry and Hermione would get together it would ruined a beautiful close and perfect friendship. One in which each person feels free to be him or herself, without feeling afraid or ridiculous. Harry needs Hermione, for what he is going to find ahead. She’s smart, she knows tons of stuff and she does something Harry never does, she looks for answers. Harry will need her in the future for what he is going to find and confront. I don’t want them to develop a relationship because it will ruin the great friendship that they have. No matter what happens they can remain friends forever, but if they develop a love relationship it will be impossible to be the same. 2. Hermione is a very strong character. I see their relationship as one sided and as Harry grows I don’t see him needing this kind of relationship. I you get what I mean.

I like the idea of H/G because it provides lots of problems to add up to the series. (Yes I know I am cynical!) The fact that she is his best friends sister adds up tension between Harry and Ron and even the twins. The fact that she is the daughter of the family that Harry absolutely adores and has open the doors to their home to Harry it has a certain appeal to me to bring up more problems to the ones we already have. As a writer I just find it fascinating!

The fact that she has been hidden all this time it only gives me one of many possibilities, one could be that she hides one of the series clues (as Neville, Lilly) and putting her on front early in the series would give up too much away (perhaps JKR already gave us all the clues, but we probably won’t find them until book 7), which then probably adds up more conflict to the series. Another person said it was weird that they had not spoken that much after the CoS, contrary of what other people think I don’t find this weak. I would do it too and it is what intrigues me the most about her character. If you have a character that gives too much of your story, better is to have them on the back and get them out only when necessary and only give out their personality traits. Develop the character only when you need to which is usually near the end or in the end. I do agree with Blue that another reason could be avoiding Harry to develop brotherly affections towards her, but I’m more incline to think it has more to do with the fact that she has one of the last clues. I could go on explaining my theory, but it will take way too long.
Last but not least, I don’t see Harry with any of the other girls in the books because quite honestly I find them gossipy a quality that I don’t see that Harry will appreciate.

Mad Eye Mike

February 9th, 2003, 6:06 am

Originally posted by Dreamprincess288
First of all, I think a lot of people are forgetting that Hermione is still with Krum. Most readers are assuming that they are going to break up.

At no point in GoF did it state that Hermione & Krum were dating. All that was made clear between the two were the following:

1. Krum liked Hermione
2. Would miss her more than anything [the second task]
3. She talks alot about Harry while with Krum
4. They went to the Yule Ball together
5. He invited her to visit him in Bulgaria
6. They had a talk at the end of GoF that we still don't know about

None of the trio actually "hooked up" with anyone else. Everything was about discovery.

Master Dragonfly

February 9th, 2003, 8:17 am

GilyAnn has a point. Ginny could be hiding something. But we should still see her. It's not like she should be huge in CoS and then disappear for the books until book 7. Harry seems to have forgotten about Ginny, and even if she has some huge secret that we see in book 7, that's a late for them to get together. Harry doesn't really notice Ginny unless she's in trouble, or she's talking to him. But as I see it, Harry and Ginny is the only relationship that could go smoothly. I mean, if Harry tried to get with Cho...not likely...Harry and Hermione...then Harry would be all mad because Ron would feel left out again. But Ginny is not really with anybody, and nobody would really feel left out...So...that's what I think...

Ame

February 9th, 2003, 8:32 am

Wow, I didn't even bother to read all those amazingly long posts. Not to seem rude, but every bit of evidence that can be collected to support either R/Hr or H/Hr has been repeated so many times that it's just plain silly.

I just skimmed over all the posts since my last post in this thread, and only one thing sticks out to me.

Being a R/Hr shipper, I'm a little insulted by the generalizations made by other shippers and non-shippers.

First off, the evidence. I'm not going to bother looking to see who had said this (if you want to know go back a few pages and find the person on your own...), but please can we not put down what R/Hr shippers use for evidence? I mean, haven't we gone down that road once before? And no matter what R/Hr shippers say, we'll always be wrong to others. The fact is, all of us use anything available to prove a point. If that means using quotes, than so be it. If you don't like the evidence I suggest searching for something better on your own. Do not insult the evidence that R/Hr shippers use, please.

Another thing, All of us do not pair Ginny up with Harry. There are a lot, and I admit that I am even open to this pairing. But I don't support it full out, because I do see the flaws in this coupling. Again, try to avoid generalizations.

One final thing, we are all here to respect each other's ideas, correct? Well how about practicing what we preach? So far, from what I've read some shippers have insulted others and vice-versa. This thread has gotten extremely heated, and I think we all need to take a step back and be more cautious about the way we present our arguements and the generalizations we make about one ship.

Personally, I think there are flaws in all the pairings R/Hr, H/Hr, G/H, etc. And finding the flaws in another pairing to prove our favorite will honestly not prove a thing. It comes down to what JKR wants. I have given up on searching out R/Hr support, it's useless because no matter what there will still be some out there who'll think my evidence is redundant. My point, debate your reasons... but be civil and polite about it, please.

Max

February 9th, 2003, 10:51 am

Wow, I didn't even bother to read all those amazingly long posts. Not to seem rude, but every bit of evidence that can be collected to support either R/Hr or H/Hr has been repeated so many times that it's just plain silly.

I just skimmed over all the posts since my last post in this thread, and only one thing sticks out to me.

Being a R/Hr shipper, I'm a little insulted by the generalizations made by other shippers and non-shippers.

First off, the evidence. I'm not going to bother looking to see who had said this (if you want to know go back a few pages and find the person on your own...), but please can we not put down what R/Hr shippers use for evidence? I mean, haven't we gone down that road once before? And no matter what R/Hr shippers say, we'll always be wrong to others. The fact is, all of us use anything available to prove a point. If that means using quotes, than so be it. If you don't like the evidence I suggest searching for something better on your own. Do not insult the evidence that R/Hr shippers use, please.

I think that there's a bit of a misunderstanding there. We're not putting down what R/Hr shippers use for evidence. I'm sorry if you were offended, I really am, but as you said, everything's just going round and round, and because of that, I'm sure that everyone here wants some new evidence from both parties. I'm just a bit irked that R/Hr shippers keep repeating JK's quotes as if Rowling herself said, "Oh, I'm gonna pair up Ron and Hermione in a future book. The End." JK's quotes can't be considered as evidence, so please don't use them anymore, less another argument starts between R/Hr and H/Hr shippers. I understand that you're just using the evidence that you have, but I think that we need some fresh ideas about the matter.

I think that we're pointing out flaws in the other pairings because everything's just being repeated over and over and over again. All of us have been pointing out flaws. Wasn't GillyAnn pointing out flaws in the H/Hr pairing? Weren't lleyki and Turambar pointing out flaws? The point is that we've no way to know for sure what happens unless we put our heads together and analyse the books. Even then, there'll still be some who disagree. We all have our own views and opinions, and nothing can change that. You support G/H? Fine. R/Hr? Fine. All you have to do is just provide relevant and logical proof as to why you think that ship will happen. We're all sick and tired of 'so that they'll be brothers-in-law' and 'so they'll all be in one big happy family.' C'mon, with hundreds of billions of neurons in your brain, can't you think of something better?

Moonlight

February 9th, 2003, 11:30 am

Don't worry. All this squabbling-sorry.. errr..debating- will end on June 21st :D

GilyAnn

February 9th, 2003, 12:01 pm

Just to make it clear, I don't think Ginny is hidding something on purpose. In fact I don't even think she is aware of what it is. She may feel like she is not normal (who does at that age!) but I don't think she or the weasley's for that matter are hidding it on purpose, whatever clue she has I don't think she knows it. And it could be the reason why she is kept so hidden.

Second can somebody explain why JKR quotes, can't be consider. I mean is her book, her story, she is the one who knows what's going to happend in the future. I seriously doubt that she is misleading people when she let us know something about the book. JKR is a very honest writter if she doesn't think she can answer she is straight forward about it, if your question hits to close to the plot line, she is not answering it. Personally I think sometimes this is the reason why she doesn't answer many of the questions. I personally don't see anything wrong if people want to make an opinion or suport their ship with her quotes. I understand that you like more evidence than her quotes and that is completly different but I don't see why supporting your opinion on her quotes can't be used. She is the one who knows what's going to happend.

too_wicked

February 9th, 2003, 1:51 pm

Yes we all need evidences to prove what we support but even if we have tons of evidence laid out in this thread, there is still one single person who knows the truth. We'll just have to wait for June 2003! Don't worry 4 months to go!

But I'm still going for Hermione. Or Ginny. Or Cho. Or Parvati. What the hell. I wanna read the book. But I'm still standing on neutral ground.

lleyki

February 9th, 2003, 4:04 pm

Okay I'm actually going to be short. Shock, I know. This is in response to something Gilyann said. This isn't a criticism in any way, more like a question. I hear you completely on H/Hr's relationship. They have this beautiful friendship. He needs her for what he will have to face, etc. She is in some sense his strength I guess. Going to a JK quote on how badly he needs her; we see her relevance in his life. My question therefore is what place and purpose would any other female have in his life after all that? Once again keep in mind these are teenagers, when hormones are raging; thus heightening feelings of jealousy and possessiveness, etc. How many girls do you honestly think would be okay with a relationship that consists of being around the guy when he feels slightly happy; but wait the moment he needs someone to talk to; he runs to his best female friend. So what purpose if any does she play in his life? Consider a scene like the second task underwater. Why was the fact that Harry said she's my friend too and I don't want them to die either stressed? The them was in italics and remember Cho was there. Cho who Harry has liked since POA. When it came to it Hermione was more important. Now I know that Harry never really knew Cho or had a relationship with her but I'm trying to make a point. If Harry is to have a relationship with someone that can actually work; he might have learn to depend less on Hermione and I don't see that happening. He would have to learn to share problems with the girl he is with and if that is supposed to be Ginny; I'll reinterate my earlier point that a disservice was done to the pair by limiting who she is and any interaction with them.

Remember how Ron was silenced when he almost spilled about Sirius. Ginny doesn't even know about Sirius who is so important to Harry and their reaction in GOF shows a reluctance to include her in any way. POA he specifically asked Ron to speak to them alone; which really was a hint because Ginny was the only one there besides Hermione and Ron. Harry has always been someone reluctant to share his problems or any kind of feelings with just anyone. The kid's a loner. That said; that has always been a big problem or limitation I see in that pair. I'm fascinated to see how JK convinces us that Harry; who is sometimes reluctant to even share things with Ron and Hermione; decides to all of sudden include Ginny in his life. Ginny who has played less of a role in his life with each passing book. On a side note, I can't see Ron having to go to Hermione for every problem if he had a girlfriend. Mainly because the only thing Ron ever worries about is being poor. Other than that his life is pretty uncomplicated.

Oh and Gilyann, it's not that people refuse to acknowledge JK's quotes. You're right, it is her book. However, her quotes are open to interpretation and some persons would like to take them and make it seem that she has absolutely said this couple will happen. JK herself has said that she doesn't like how some people take her words and interpret it in their own way and then get upset when things don't work out the way they thought. Like apparently because she said someone would die in GOF; a rumour got started it would be Ron and alot of people believed it.

tomluva9

February 9th, 2003, 4:15 pm

I am going with R/H all the way!!!(as you can sort of tell from my sig) They're so ment for eachother!
lol poor Emma she didn't want to have to kiss Rupert! :love:

Dreamprincess288

February 9th, 2003, 5:13 pm

Originally posted by Mad Eye Mike
At no point in GoF did it state that Hermione & Krum were dating. All that was made clear between the two were the following:

1. Krum liked Hermione
2. Would miss her more than anything [the second task]
3. She talks alot about Harry while with Krum
4. They went to the Yule Ball together
5. He invited her to visit him in Bulgaria
6. They had a talk at the end of GoF that we still don't know about

None of the trio actually "hooked up" with anyone else. Everything was about discovery.

That's true but it's obvious that Krum likes Hermione. And Hermione spent a lot of time with him and he asked her to visit him over the summer. They may not be "officialy dating" but it's obvious that Krum is somewhat attached to her. If Hermione were just to ignore Krum's feelings and go off and have a relationship with Ron or Harry she'll be, like Rita Skeeter said, "A Scarlet Woman". I think that at least some kind of formal parting would have to happen between Krum and Hermione before Hermione can get another guy.

Moonchild

February 9th, 2003, 5:22 pm

:) :) :) I wish that harry potter won't turn into a love story. . . :) :) :)

Dessie

February 9th, 2003, 5:33 pm

Consider a scene like the second task underwater. Why was the fact that Harry said she's my friend too and I don't want them to die either stressed? The them was in italics and remember Cho was there. Cho who Harry has liked since POA. When it came to it Hermione was more important.

That's a really good point, Ileyki, I hadn't thought of that. Also, good point about Harry's relationship with Hermione blocking him having a relationship with anyone else. I know I wouldn't be comfortable with my boyfriend having such a close relationship with a female friend. Even if it was totally unjustified, I would probably still get paranoid. I never liked the idea of H/G anyway, but that just makes it really improbable.

However, it doesn't automatically mean H/Hr is inevitable. I still think that Harry's going to die alone (but that's probably just me...).

GilyAnn

February 9th, 2003, 6:41 pm

lleyki in response to your question.

"what place and purpose would any other female have in his life after all that? "

Another female would provide for Harry what between Hermione and him doesn't exist hormones. Having lived the experience when I was around that age (wow! that was a long time ago!) I can say with complete confidence that just because he has a friend who is a girl it won't stop him to confide also to his girlfriend. Hermione would always be there as his friend, no matter what happens that is a friendship I do not want destroyed or tampered with. Harry will NEVER depend less on Hermione, I don't see that happening. Whoever is with Harry, will have to learn to deal with that fact. Which IN MY PERSONAL OPINION is what makes Ginny perfect since she is already friends with Hermione.

To explalined better, in my personal case when my friend had his girlfriends I became friends with mostly all of them exept the ones that lived far away or went to another school. When he decided to end the relationship I admit I felt awful and I was the shoulder to cry on with some of them, but that didn't stop me from being his friend. I understood his reasons, I respect it them but It didn't stop me from feeling bad for her. Whoever ends up with Harry will have to accept and respect Hermione as HIS friend, wheter they like it or not. That's the bottom line, which it what makes me disqualified Lavender, Pavarti and the other girls, because I find them gossipy and that is a quality I hate on people and I see that Harry does not apreciate. Even if it sounds incredible and too good to be true, a few of his girlfriends loved the idea that he had a girl who used to take care and listen to his problems (his parents got divorce) while the fun part (cough snoogin cough) was left to them(we were 15, what did you expect! Dear old hormones!). I am not saying this is the case I am just trying to explain how I lived it, so you understand what I mean.

The fact that Harry would get a girlfriend it does not mean he will depend less on Hermione. He can still confide and talk about his problems with whoever is his girlfriend. I completly get you on the fact that Ginny has played less of a role in every book and now all of sudden JKR has decided to include her on the books. But can I ask you something, on book 1 when Ron and Harry sort of hated Hermione for being nosy and then she was included as their friend, after the troll incident. Did it take you a lot of time to accept that? It could be the same thing with Ginny, one event can change it all? If Harry suddenly decides to confine to Ginny like you said some things he never said to Ron and Hermione, there must be a good reason for it. Perhaps he feels more at ease, or she undestand him better, having live the experience of facing Voldemort. Some situations are just better understood by one person than others. I am sure there probably be a few things that Hermione will understand better than Ginny. Somepeople are better to talk in a particular situation than others. There is a million reasons on why that could happend.

I'm sorry to completly disagree on the remark that the only thing that Ron cares is about being poor. I completly accept that you don't like the character. I can respect that. But Ron has proved a lot of times that he does care about Harry's safety and problems and he has proved that he cares about Hermione's safety, over the four books. His a good and loyal friend and I don't see the trio becoming apart because of Ron. The three of them are very loyal to each other and I trully believe it will stayed that way until the end.

On your last coment, I completly get what you say about people putting JKR quotes to what they believe it's going to happend. The same thing is going now, everybody thinks Hagrid will die, she said that he would be on all 7 books and people are saying that he could come back as a ghost and be in all 7 books. She never said that he was coming back as a ghost. She was clear that he would be on all 7 books. I take her coments literally, because I believe she has no hidden agenda under her answers, when she can't answer, she says so.

SaRaH 23 HP

February 9th, 2003, 7:58 pm

Originally posted by Ame
Wow, I didn't even bother to read all those amazingly long posts. Not to seem rude, but every bit of evidence that can be collected to support either R/Hr or H/Hr has been repeated so many times that it's just plain silly.

Lol I agree! But it still is fun!! I can't believe some of you people can write so long posts I couldn't even if I wanted to! Merr...! Goodness some people have to much time on ther hands!:smile:

Halo Demornay

February 9th, 2003, 8:13 pm

I'm all for Hermione and Ron getting together, but I don't think it should happen until much later. I mean, they may express their feelings for each other, but a relationship between them might jeopardize their relationship with Harry while they're at school. So if they officially get together, I don't think it will be until toward the end of book 7.

I also think JKR will develop Ginny's character, helping Harry to notice her. Somehow I don't think Harry and Cho will work out... she just seems to far out of his reach.

BabyMars

February 9th, 2003, 8:31 pm

Quote by GilyAnn :"what place and purpose would any other female have in his life after all that? "

Another female would provide for Harry what between Hermione and him doesn't exist hormones. :

I disagree with this point. I've been with my boyfriend for a year and a half, but not only is he my boyfriend, he is my best friend too. I may be there to fill in the "hormones" part :yup: , but I always want to be there for him too. I want him to confide in me first. I want to know all of his secrets and not feel left out. I want to be the one person he trusts most in the world. Don't you think Harry's girlfriend would want that too, instead of just filling the void that Hermione doesn't? I don't think I could be with another boy if he went to some other girl with his secrets/problems/hardships. It just wouldn't feel right, even if I did provide his hormone 'relief' :o . I wouldn't feel as if I were the first woman in his life. I think this is the point lleyki was trying to make. The girl who is with harry is going to feel inferioir to Hermione because of the friendship Harry has with her. Do you think that he will be so willing to give that up for some girl? Now, I realize that they are teenagers and their hormones are "ablaze", but these kids do have some sense. You make a valid point, GilyAnn, but I just don't buy it. Especially with the experiences I've had with relationships throughout my life.

Cheers :smooch:

lleyki

February 9th, 2003, 8:47 pm

I don't have time to go into a long discussion. However, I don't like being misunderstood; so I must clear something up. Gilyann I wasn't saying Ron only cares about being poor and doesn't care about Harry, etc. I was trying to make the point that Ron's life isn't as complicated as Harry's and except for hating being poor; he doesn't really have any other real problems to worry about. Like I said awhile back, Ron is a typical teenage boy. Sarcastic, a hothead, slightly possessive and extremely insecure. In many ways that is normal for his age and considering his situation. The statement was in no way related to his friendship with Harry and others in his life. I suggest you re-read it carefully. Finally please don't put words in my mouth. I have NEVER said that I don't like Ron. He has annoyed and irritated me at times but I've never said I didn't like him. Hermione annoyed me a little in SS and I still liked her and wanted her there. So that clears that.

One more thing. I get you completely on the hormones issue. However, that's why I was one of those who was all for brief H/C pairing for awhile. So, he could explore that. However, the older you grow, you desire more from someone in your life. Yes, Ginny is already friends with Hermione and that will certainly help. However, once again, up until the last book Harry was reluctant to include Ginny in his life at all, yet in OOTP he suddenly will? You use the example of SS, but in a really poor metaphor, the stakes were alot lower when Harry included Hermione in his life. They didn't even know about the stone yet. Hell they found out its significance from her. My point is Harry was nowhere as emotionally preoccupied as he is now. That's my main thing and I can't see how so many can't get it and I really don't know how else to say it. I understand what you said Gilyann about how a boy could have his friend and the girlfriend and it could work. One problem, Harry isn't your typical teenage boy and certainly doesn't have typical problems. I doubt your friend had to deal with his mortality and danger all the time. My point again is that the couple of H/G was weakened by their lack of interactions. Plus the examples I gave reinterated how reluctant he is to her being included in his life. Once again I am judging based on the first four books. If JK can somehow convincingly grow Ginny's character and manage to have her become more included in Harry's life; all the while he is bothered by Voldemort and all the drama going on, then I'll certainly take my hat off to the woman.

Thanks for the support Babymars. Well said.:)

Turambar

February 9th, 2003, 9:13 pm

Some good points made.
Just on the Harry with a girlfriend issue: Harry would need to spend a lot more time on a new girl than what he has with Cho.
The relationship with Cho has been one of him seeing her occasionally in a quidditch game, in the hall, on the way to lessons. Only once has he actually gone looking for her (to ask her to the ball). He's probably only spoken a couple of sentences to her. He's been content with just getting a buzz from occasional glimpses of her.
How often does he actually have a conversation with any girl apart from Hermione? He really has no interest in talking to any other girls. He hardly said a word to Parvati at the ball. He became mildly interested in Fleur (I don't mean romantically) after the lake task mainly because he realised she had more to her than he had originally thought. He was impressed with her bond with her sister, like he loves the family closeness of the Weasleys.
Any new girl would require a lot more effort than that. He'd have to attract her attention initially, spend time getting to know her, spend time talking to her, going places with her. This is EVEN IF if he still goes to Hermione first with his problems! And is he going to have the time anyway?
This is where the whole problem of hiding Ginny comes in. Why couldn't JKR have inserted her in a few more scenes just so we get a sense that Harry actually has regular conversations with her? She doesn't have to obviously be a friend but it would help if she wasn't so invisible. For instance on the train to school in GOF, the trio immediately head off on their own to their own compartment. Why couldn't Ginny have gone with them? I don't think Ginny is mentioned once in the final chapters of GOF, even on the train.

GilyAnn

February 9th, 2003, 10:02 pm

Babymars Ok, here si my opinion on that subject. The fact that he confides his problems with Hermione it does not mean that he can't share it with whoever would be his girlfriend. The person can be the girl of his dreams, but it doesn't mean that he has to live up only for that person. He can still confide to Hermione be friends with her and do everything else. Does the fact that Hermione is a girl changes that? I don't know if i'm explaining this line well, so you will see my point. But what I'm trying to say is that if Hermione would be a boy, she would be like one of the guys, a pal. A close friend who happens to be a be girl. I didn't mean that Harry's girlfriend would be there only for snooging, he can still confide his problems worries and woes to her, but he can also share it with Hermione. I honestly don't see the problem on Harry sharing his problems with both of them. Why would anyone feel inferior just because he has a best friend who is a girl? If Harry's girlfriend feels inferior then it comes about the character, because I don't see Hermione being the type of girl, that would cause problems between Harry and his girlfriend. She is an honest, good girl. If Harry seems to be devoted to that person and loves her share his life, secrets and everything else. I don't get the point of her feeling like jealous and mad over Hermione. Again I see her as one of the guys (metaphorically speaking). Harry's girlfriend would be there for him on a emotional level, love sharing your life type of level.

lleyki I apolgize for the remark. But to be honest your posts sound like you dispice a lot the character. That was the impression I got. If it wasn't the correct one, sorry!!! but that was my impression.

I get your point on:

"My point is Harry was nowhere as emotionally preoccupied as he is now. "

But it is more easier than you think to throw her in there and involve her on voldemort and eveything else. Probably in some weird twisted way JKR has already involve her with the CoS thing. Again the only reason I see, for Ginny to have no interaction with Harry it's because she gives too much away, about something. Off course none of us knows what it is. Because the line on her appereance in the books is inconsistent, I'm aware of that. But it's what makes me think that she has one of the clues, and I don't think she is even aware of it. There is something we don't know that it will make her being thrown on the mixed.

Turambar

February 9th, 2003, 10:27 pm

I've mentioned this til I'm blue in the face but anyway: If Harry is to fall in love with a girl who is not Hermione, that girl has to mean more to him than Hermione.
If Harry doesn't develop romantic feelings for Hermione then the new girl would have to be as physically attractive to him as Cho and as amazing a person as Hermione if he is to love her.
It's more likely that he will be alone than he will fall in love with a new girl. He may possibly get a girlfriend but I can't see it being serious, unless it's Hermione.

Max

February 9th, 2003, 10:45 pm

Good point, Turambar.

That person has to mean more to Harry than Hermione. GilyAnn, I don't think that any person can stand going out with someone only to have that person confide in someone else.

GilyAnn

February 9th, 2003, 10:50 pm

Turambar I got a posiblity for it. She gives too much away or jkr does not want to develop her until the last minute. It could be as simple as her not being needed until now. You develop them when you need to, not before that. We only get a few glipses of them just to be remind it that they exist and that should be enough, when times is right then take them out. It is a mistake to do it before the time is right.

Harry does talk to Ginny even if it is for very short period and then she disapears. I do have an opinion over that matter but the thread would be too long. All I can say over that matter is that there is more than meets the eye on both of their parts.

snitch14

February 9th, 2003, 11:08 pm

Originally posted by Lavender*Quill
Don't worry. All this squabbling-sorry.. errr..debating- will end on June 21st :D

BUT, after a few short weeks, we'll be debating on to the 6th book. But we'll have a better idea of what to discuss. Thank goodness...

Turambar

February 9th, 2003, 11:21 pm

To be fair, GilyAnn, JKR still has three (long!) books to go so if she moves hard on developing Ginny in the next book, Ginny still could be a possibility.
But it's like getting over a high-jump bar: the bar's been set pretty high already for any girl for Harry.
One thing I find interesting which I've mentioned before is that while other girls like Ginny and Cho haven't been developed much, both Harry and Hermione have really been developed a great deal over the past book and a half. I'm not going to repeat all the evidence about that but it's almost like JKR is making it highly unlikely for anyone else to be Harry's equal match apart from Hermione.

snitch14

February 9th, 2003, 11:26 pm

Great point, Turambar! Never thought of that.

But before H/Hr get together or sometin, R/Hr will have to give it a try since sometin IS goin on.

BabyMars

February 10th, 2003, 1:15 am

Originally posted by Turambar
I'm not going to repeat all the evidence about that but it's almost like JKR is making it highly unlikely for anyone else to be Harry's equal match apart from Hermione.

Cheers Turambar :D

Turambar

February 10th, 2003, 1:41 am

Lleyki made the point that if Harry got a girlfriend he might have to learn to depend less on Hermione and how unlikely that was.
This is where my point about the accelerated development comes in: both Harry and Hermione have learnt alot over the past book and a half. Hermione has so much more knowledge for Harry to draw on than any other girl he's likely to know. That's aside from the emotional support, friendship, intellect etc she gives him as well.
JKR makes his need for her obvious with the training for the tasks in GOF. It's interesting that JKR has done this just as the books head into darker territory with Voldemort back. Who would Harry depend on most in time of crisis? Ron for his friendship and support, but Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin and Hermione for their knowledge and intellect.
It's also likely that Hermione would put Harry and the wider conflict he's involved in ahead of most relationships. Krum didn't react well to it - as no girlfriend of Harry's would if he was continually relying on Hermione.
Harry and what he's doing is a major priority for Hermione.
Even in PS, when Ron gets knocked out in the chess game, they look at him anxiously but there's no hesitation about going on together. They don't go over to him and Hermione doesn't stay behind to get help. In POA when they hear Sirius in trouble with the dementors they go off together again rather than one going to get help for Ron. Again it's clear that they are anxious about Ron but helping each other with the task in hand is more important.
Thanks BabyMars, Snitch and Max.

Mad Eye Mike

February 10th, 2003, 3:25 am

Originally posted by Dreamprincess288
That's true but it's obvious that Krum likes Hermione. And Hermione spent a lot of time with him and he asked her to visit him over the summer. They may not be "officialy dating" but it's obvious that Krum is somewhat attached to her. If Hermione were just to ignore Krum's feelings and go off and have a relationship with Ron or Harry she'll be, like Rita Skeeter said, "A Scarlet Woman". I think that at least some kind of formal parting would have to happen between Krum and Hermione before Hermione can get another guy.

Though it's true that Krum likes Hermione, she doesn't spend much time with him. Only a few times after the ball does she talk with him & when she does, she just talks about Harry. There's no need for a "formal parting" because they were never together to begin with. Now, if Hermione did indeed visit Krum over the summer, then yes, a formal parting would probably be needed.

Snowangel

February 10th, 2003, 4:47 am

At first, Ginny really got on my nerves and I could not imagine her as a suitable girlfriend for Harry. However, lately, I've begun to change my mind. I kind of like Ginny now. I feel sorry for her a bit. Being shy and having a crush on someone can be tough, especially at that age. Anyways, with more development, I see her as a possibility for Harry. I think I'd rather Harry go for Ginny than Cho.

too_wicked

February 10th, 2003, 4:59 am

Cheers, snowangel.

I completely agree with you. At first Ginny really irritates me with her I'm-In-Love-With-Harry-Potter image. But now, I'm starting to like her. And yes, I also feel sorry for her. She's got these brothers who tease her a lot and the guy she has a crush on is lavishingly asking girls in front of her! Poor girl. I'd rather see Ginny with Harry too rather than Cho. But I'm still going for Hermione.

BabyMars

February 10th, 2003, 5:15 am

Originally posted by too_wicked
And yes, I also feel sorry for her. She's got these brothers who tease her a lot and the guy she has a crush on is lavishingly asking girls in front of her! Poor girl.

Uhhh What? Since when do her brothers pick on her a lot, if at all? And, since when does Harry ask girls out lavishingly??

Cheers :smooch:

too_wicked

February 10th, 2003, 5:28 am

Well, I just assumed her brothers tease her a lot. You have Fred and George for brothers!

And about Harry asking girls out in front of her, well, yeah he really didn't ask Cho out in front of her but he's talking about Cho dumping him in front of Ginny. I'd definitely feel miserable if I heard the guy I like talking about the girl who just dumped him.

Anyway, it's just a slip of the mind!

Cheers! Heehee!:D

BabyMars

February 10th, 2003, 5:56 am

Good point Too Wicked, but I really don't feel sorry for her at all. She's got a loving family, she has friends, and Harry does notice that she exists. Maybe not in the way she wants, but he does. IS her life really that bad?? Nahhhhh...just a school girl crush. She'll get over it once she finds other boys starting to take interest in her.

Cheers:smooch:

too_wicked

February 10th, 2003, 6:04 am

Maybe it's really in the Weasley blood. They feel sorry for things not to be sorry about. Look at Ron! He's got an amazing family but he's still carrying this jealousy towards Harry.

And about Ginny, she's gonna get over Harry. I mean, everybody gets over their first crush! Don't want to annoy H/G shippers out there but Ginny isn't Harry's type!!! Don't know why but if she is, there must be something written in the book about Harry showing interests towards her.

Turambar

February 10th, 2003, 6:09 am

Exactly BabyMars. And fancying people who are unavailable or don't fancy you is just one of those annoying facts of life afterall. I could see Ginny with Neville quite easily.

Rowena Ravenclaw

February 10th, 2003, 6:15 am

So could I, Turambar, though I have a feeling he'll have to brush up his dancing skills first. ;)

Though I don't know if you can ever entirely get over your first crush. If I ran into mine, as long ago as it was and as much as I'm sure he's changed, I'm sure a few of the old feelings would resurface. Same with Ginny. I think she's already no longer completely infatuated with Harry (how else could she have stood watching him at the Yule Ball with someone else?), but she was still clearly disappointed when she found out she could have gone with him.

Mad Eye Mike

February 10th, 2003, 6:15 am

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Babymars Ok, here si my opinion on that subject. The fact that he confides his problems with Hermione it does not mean that he can't share it with whoever would be his girlfriend. The person can be the girl of his dreams, but it doesn't mean that he has to live up only for that person. He can still confide to Hermione be friends with her and do everything else. Does the fact that Hermione is a girl changes that? I don't know if i'm explaining this line well, so you will see my point. But what I'm trying to say is that if Hermione would be a boy, she would be like one of the guys, a pal. A close friend who happens to be a be girl. I didn't mean that Harry's girlfriend would be there only for snooging, he can still confide his problems worries and woes to her, but he can also share it with Hermione. I honestly don't see the problem on Harry sharing his problems with both of them. Why would anyone feel inferior just because he has a best friend who is a girl? If Harry's girlfriend feels inferior then it comes about the character, because I don't see Hermione being the type of girl, that would cause problems between Harry and his girlfriend. She is an honest, good girl. If Harry seems to be devoted to that person and loves her share his life, secrets and everything else. I don't get the point of her feeling like jealous and mad over Hermione. Again I see her as one of the guys (metaphorically speaking). Harry's girlfriend would be there for him on a emotional level, love sharing your life type of level.

If Harry found a girlfriend [not Ginny or Hermione], she most likely would have a real problem with Harry going to Hermione first with his problems. Any potential girlfriend is going to want to be the #1 girl in his life - as well she should be. Though Harry & Hermione's relationship could be purely innocent, she'll resent the fact that she's not the first person he goes/comes to when something arises. Whether that be in his time of need, who he goes to when he has a problem, who he spends most of his time with, etc.

No girl is going to want to play second fiddle to Hermione - none. Even if Hermione was a boy, Harry's girl would still want him to confide in her first, before he goes to anyone else - not his best guy friend & certainly not another girl. In real life, people get angry when they think/realize that they're not #1 in their significant others life. If Harry had a problem & goes to and/or confides in Hermione before he does his own girlfriend, his girl would feel insecure because even though Harry would love her, his first choice would still be Hermione.

When you have someone in your life, they should be the first person you go to when anything happens. That's why you're sharing your life with them & not anyone else. Any girl is going to want to feel & know that they're #1 in Harry's life & that will never happen as long as Hermione is his best friend. JKR hasn't developed any other possible suitors for Harry & as well as she writes, I don't see her making me believe that Harry is going to meet someone, emotionally open up, fall for her & have her become the #1 girl in his life above Hermione all in the last 3 books. That would be too much & too quick of a 180 degree turnaround for him IMO.

And I've read here in this thread that JKR said that Harry will get with someone who's been in all four books. Well then if that's the case, she's done a really poor job of developing anyone else for Harry to get to get close to - even slightly - because he doesn't seem to know or speak to any other girl except Hermione.

Turambar

February 10th, 2003, 6:31 am

You're right Rowena, and they can take quite a while to get over especially if it's more the hero worship kind like Ginny's appears to be.

too_wicked

February 10th, 2003, 6:41 am

Yeah. It seems that Ginny's crush is not hero-worship anymore. It's developed into something..big. I don't know how I saw that coming but it just looks that way. But please. God help Ginny get over it! Honestly, she's just torturing herself! She really have to drop it.

Max

February 10th, 2003, 7:50 am

Good post, Mad Eye Mike.

It's too late in the series to introduce any new characters which are possible girlfriends for Harry. "But the future books may be huge!" some say. Sure, the future books may be huge, but didn't Voldie just return at the beginning of '95? The tight little trio will be tighter than ever in book 5, when the survial of the wizarding world is at stake. Strange, though, that JK said that Harry'll get together with someone who's been in all seven books. I know that I've said before that JK's quotes can't be taken seriously, but this quote, however, may be judged differently. Now, let's not be narrow minded like some (I repeat, some) people over at The Sugar Quill, and list down all those who've been there since the beginning of the series.

Turambar

February 10th, 2003, 8:21 am

These quotes get confusing. Did she just say 'someone who has been in all the books' or did she say 'someone who has been in the books but not Hermione' because I've read it both ways. Of course we get back to the 'why would an author want to be specific' issue with the second one. Hopefully the second one isn't correct.

Max

February 10th, 2003, 8:45 am

Yeah, I've read both versions, but I find the 'not Hermione' one to be highly unlikely.

Mad Eye Mike

February 10th, 2003, 9:05 am

Thanks for the compliment Max. Other than Hermione & Ginny, I don't remember who else has been in all four books . Even still, none of them - except Hermione - have been developed at all, not even Ginny who's just about been completely absent since CoS. Now maybe if Ginny had been used or appeared in PoA & GoF in any way that mattered, her & Harry wouldn't seem like such an unlikely duo.

I feel that with the exception of Hermione, anyone else Harry pairs up with is going to be quite jolting because no other girl has been given any kind of time to develop - not as a friend & surely not as a love interest. Only Hermione fits into that category.

There's also something else to consider. I remember reading in this thread the JKR quote that said Harry would hook up with someone whose been in all four books & that it would be surprising. Well maybe she said that because she knew that after reading GoF, fans would be expecting R/Hr to get together since it seems so obvious. So since everyone is [i]expecting a R/Hr pairing, they'd be shocked to see it suddenly become H/Hr even though there are clues in the books that point to H/Hr's love slowly blossoming - even if H/Hr don't see it yet.

SiriusBlack

February 10th, 2003, 10:00 am

I still firmly believe that it'll be Ron and Hermione. Because of that quote of JKr's. There is something going on between Ron and Hermione but Ron doesn't know yet, typical boy.Plus, Hermione's shown that she kissed Harry and hugged at the end of the book 4, but that doesn't mean Harry has the same feelings towards her. He's never shown the slightes t interest in her, on the contrary, Ron's been jealous the whole time. Or Jkr might do this, she'll push us to believe that Harry is in for Hermione in the starting of the book, but will suddenely end up with Ginny.

Max

February 10th, 2003, 11:30 am

No offense, Sirius, but can you state some other evidence other than JKR's quotes. I think that we've come to the conclusion that JK's quotes aren't solid evidence.

SiriusBlack

February 10th, 2003, 11:51 am

Well, like I said long back, we've all been seeing a relationship start up between Hermione and Ron. Like the way he's always jealous, and when Fleur kissed him at the end of the book, I dont' quite remember but I think they did say something about Hermione looking up or twicthing and eyebrow. And how he sticks up to her when she's being called scarlet woman and a mudblood. Also, there was all that going on about Harry and Hermione by Rita Skeeter, if they get together, it would be a bit odd. But Max, no offence here either but can I have some evidence why you think it'll be Harry and Hermione?? Well, maybe you mentioned before but I've forgotten. So could you mention again. And why aren't JKr's quotes solid evidence? I mean, she said them herself. We can't assume she's lying now can we?

Max

February 10th, 2003, 12:14 pm

Okay, first and foremost, Sirius, JKR's quotes can't be taken seriously as they can mean different things according to the personality, views and opinions of an individual. As a result, each person's interpretation of it may differ.

Secondly, I'm gonna try and list all the evidence I can find.

Turambar wrote this:
1) It's interesting that people tend to see Hermione's relationships through the viewpoint of a) what it means for someone else e.g if H/Hr happens what about poor Ron or b) what's best for the whole e.g. R/Hr + H/G = one big family.
What about considering it more from her point of view. Unrequited love already seems a theme in the books, who's to say it won't happen to Ron?
By the end of book 4 she knows for sure she has one guy interested in her, who has told her that no-one else has interested him as much; she has probably noted that Ron's interest in her has revved a gear; and possibly she's aware of a few changes in her relationship with Harry.
She's got some options.

2) People love saying opposites attract but when you look at successful long-term relationships there's usually some common values and viewpoints involved.
It's interesting that in GOF it is Harry who raises the house elf issue which is then carried on by Hermione.
It is Harry who really loses his rag over Rita's outing of Hagrid and then Hermione feeds off that anger and becomes passionate about it herself.
That is quite a curious bit of writing.
Ron is pretty quiet about it throughout because he has a conventional wizard's reservations about Hagrid's giant blood. Hermione is initially low key and Harry unusually provokes her. Normally he's pretty non-confrontational. He snaps at her the way he does in the POA time turning scenes and preparing for the first task in GOF.
"Look at this!" Harry snarled, and he shoved the Daily Prophet article under Hermione's nose.
Then later: "You do want him back?" he shot at Hermione. And: "I do want Hagrid back, of course I do," Hermione added hastily, quailing under Harry's furious stare.
Then after Harry publically challenges Rita in the pub, Hermione really fires up. And it comes after a quote from Rita where she twists her Hagrid target into a Hagrid/Harry target: "How about giving me an interview about the Hagrid you know ... your unlikely friendship ... would you call him a father substitute?" In other words a chance for Rita to have another go at Harry while writing again about Hagrid.
Hermione is effectively sticking up for both of them there. But it whole passage shows how intense the H/Hr relationship can get and also illustrates common ground between them.
Also it's subtely done but there's several occasions in GOF where JKR makes a point of showing that Harry has read Hermione's mind, to show them becoming more mentally in tune.

3) It's interesting how the Hermione/Krum relationship mirrors the Harry/Cho one. Hermione has at least some interest in Krum. We get descriptions of the physichal symptoms. When she talks about Krum inviting her to his home she "blushes scarlet" and when she talks about his feelings for her it says "Hermione was going so red now that Harry could almost feel the heat coming from her." She is also apparently flustered when Krum asks her for a chat at the end.
What's really so different between that and Harry stammering over Cho or some of Ron's behaviour towards Hermione.
People might say, she's embarrassed about talking about it with the boys and part of the attraction is probably flattery that a famous person has taken notice of her. But she actually commented on Krum being brave at the quidditch world cup and she was quite dismissive of Krum's library groupies.
My point is that if the H/C and Hr/K relationships can be dismissed as temporary attractions (which they usually are and I agree) all that can really be taken from the R/Hr relationship in GOF is that Ron has a developing interest in Hermione but there's no guarantee it's returned.
By the end of GOF they appear to have jointly resolved not to talk about the awkwardness that happened between them and the relationship appears pretty normal. If she was interested why not raise the subject in a non-threatening way; why not at least kiss Ron on the cheek goodbye to encourage him?
Some people point to the scene where Ron asks Krum for his autograph and "Hermione turned away, smiling at the horseless carriages" as some sort of sign that she likes him.
But is she smiling at what's going on or what Krum has said to her in private? What if she's smiling at the fact that Ron has been able to overcome his jealousy enough to ask for the autograph. Is that necessarily good news for Ron? It could mean afterall that Hermione now feels Ron would be more accepting of a relationship between herself and Krum. He'd get over it.
One more point re K/H/Hr. When Ron accuses Krum of just asking Hermione to the ball to get info on Harry (what a prat, honestly!) Hermione answers "for your information, he hasn't asked me one single thing about Harry, not one." The when Krum talks to Harry about Hermione he says she "talks about you very often".
This means a) she is bringing up the subject of Harry with a guy she is actually interested in and b) she's not talking about the guy she's supposedly mad keen about.
I think all these attactions are temporary. The lake task chapter was really the writing on the wall for H/C and Hr/K. It's a matter of them realising that the other meant more to them than the person they are attracted to at the moment. The only relationship that has a chance of being long-term is Harry/Hermione.

____________
You believe in R/H? Well, read this, then:

Posted by Mad Eye Mike:
I'm also shocked that no one on these boards has taken issue with an 18 year old character [Krum] taking an underaged 14 year old [Hermione] on a date & saying that he like her. That seemed a little on the inappropriate side to me even though apparently nothing happened.

I've also notice people clamoring for a Ron/Hermione pairing - as if 14 year olds should be having romantic relationships to begin with but that's a whole other issue - but I can't believe no one's noticed the disturbing pattern in that little relationship. Ron treats Hermione pretty badly throughout GoF [mocking her S.P.E.W. campaign, basically yelling at her during & after the Yule Ball, etc] and yet she still likes him apparently?

Now I'm a man, but I've never been comfortable with the idea that a guy can treat a girl poorly & in turn she winds up having romantic feelings and/or a crush on him. To me, it says something about that girls self esteem. I always felt Hermione was a very strong female character, but she was a lightning rod for Ron's bitter & harsh feelings throughout GoF. I think it would have been better if Hermione had instigated a few of the arguments as well so that their bickering would've been a little more balanced.

Some teen angst is okay as the characters grow & change, but it got a little too "Dawson's Creek" for me. For me, the main story took a back seat to it & I felt it suffered as a result.

Also, I'm tired of the romantic cliche of having characters argue constantly with one another even though they secretly harbor a crush on the other person storyline - it's been done to death. I personally thought JKR would be a little more original than that. I loved however how she fleshed out Harry & Hermione's friendship. My favorite scene in the entire book is when Ron hasn't been talking to Harry for awhile & Hermione brings Harry some toast & ask him if he wants to take a walk.

In terms of character development, that was beautifully written. It showed how thoughtful Hermione was & just how much she not only cared for Harry, but how much of a friend she is to him. And let's face it, at that point in time, he really needed one. I think if there are going to be any feelings between characters, it should be between Harry/Hermione because it's not often you see two characters who genuinely care and respect each other fall in love. As we all know, love born out of friendship is usually the purest love there is.

Yes opposites attract, but it rarely [key word here] last. If Ron & Hermione ever have a "relationship", it'll be the kind that ends when they graduate from Hogwarts. However, Harry/Hermione could share a more deeply rooted spiritual connection. They seem to be soul mates - if you will. Plus, Hermione might be the only girl - in the wizarding world - who would love/like Harry for who he truly is - flaws & all, as opposed to what he is [a famous wizard].

Oh well, that's just my opinion.

____________
Like H/G? This may change your mind:

From lleyki:
The issue of Ginny. I swear I'm starting to sound like a broken record but I hate to be misunderstood. I have always said that if Ginny developed strengths and character on her OWN in BK.5, I would love that. However, my opinions and views of the characters are based on reading BKs 1-4. I'm not psychic and therefore haven't read BK.5, so my describing Ginny as I do is because it's how I have seen her in the first four books.

Blue you talk about how Harry, Hermione, etc. all have flaws. I agree but noone ever said they didn't. However, that's what makes all these characters interesting. They're well-rounded, because they're not perfect. We see their strengths as well as their weaknesses. However, we don't know Ginny's flaws as well as we don't know her strengths. That's my point that I have said over and over; WE DON'T KNOW HER AT ALL. Percy is really what you might consider a minor character. However, based on a number of little things I can see alot of his character. Ambition being the most blinding, his reaction to Ron after they came out of the lake shows his love for his family despite his obsession with his career. The little bits about his relationship with Penelope showed a more playful and cute side. However, I can't say that about Ginny and it's a little ridiculos when you consider that she goes to Hogwarts and is in Gryffindor and is only a year younger than the three. Unlike Bill and Charlie, who live abroad, the twins who are two years older, Parvati and Lavender, who aren't related to them in any way.

I agreed with the person who said that Ginny standing up to Malfoy in the bookstore really isn't that compelling of evidence to her character. In case many forget, Parvati defended Harry to Mcgonagall in SS and we the readers are always told how stern and serious looking she is. Now considering they weren't close friends and they were all nervous first years; I'd say her defending him to such a stict professor was pretty bold and brave. Therefore, I wouldn't make such an issue of that in supporting H/G.

Ah yes, so many H/G supporters refer to that dementor scene on the train; suggesting that that is something the two share that Harry could never share with Ron and Hermione. However, what many conveniently forget is that Neville was also placed in that scene and when Harry first came around after fainting; he mentioned the two sitting in the corner. That suggests that they were leaning close to each other. By GOF we see Ginny and Neville going to the Yule Ball together. Everyone talks of subtleties, well maybe JK is building a G/N relationship right under our noses. Personally I doubt it, but I'm just trying to show how that scene suggests very little of H/G. Something else, everyone says how she had been attacked by Riddle and that's probably what she was remembering. I'm sure that true; however, people are forgetting that Harry wasn't remembering Voldemort hurting him personally but instead hearing his parents's pain. Now after learning about Neville's past in GOF, if Harry would connect with anyone based on that dementor- train incident I'd say it'd be Neville. I mean doesn't it seem pretty likely that Neville would be thinking of his parents' pain by Voldemort too? If that's not a connecting link, I don't know what is.

____________

You won't believe how deep I dug for all this. I think that this post is already long enough. I'm guessing that most of you won't read all of this.
:smile:

tcboo

February 10th, 2003, 12:28 pm

Max, congratulations, I think with that you will qualify for membership into the coveted "My post takes 10 minutes to scroll through, let alone read" club.

I don't think I will try out for membership any time soon, not out of lack of desire, rather lack of capability.

Max

February 10th, 2003, 12:41 pm

And it takes 10 times as much time to write. :)

SiriusBlack

February 10th, 2003, 12:53 pm

Wow Max, I guess you found this stuff really deep into this thread. Must've taken you a lot of time. I read through it all. It was very convincing, but there are a little things I want to mention like there are times when Harry and Hermione look out for each other, there are such times with Harry as well. And usually, Hermione and Ron pass messages to each other a lot in the holidays, discussing first, then passing them on to Harry. Like when Hermione and Ron ask Harry if he could be at Diagon Alley the day before school starts. Or warning each other not to call Harry because of Uncle Vernon. Or even when they were sitting at the Ice Cream Parlour waiting for Harry. There are many such small facts which I'm tooo lazy to mention all. And everytime Hermione and Ron have quarrels, almost all the time, but has anyone ever heard, love grows through hate or argument(can't really remember). They could be trying to hide their feelings towards each other by fighting, so that no one can notice. And they always sit on either side of Harry after a quarrel, which I don't know how to explain,but seems to me that they have something for each other. If my posts were as long as yours Max, I could state a lot of reasons, but I'm too lazy.:p

Anyways, I am quite stubborn and won't change my mind easily. I think it better to just change the topic. Of course, there's a 50% chance that I'm wrong. But everyone has their own thoughts.

Max

February 10th, 2003, 1:03 pm

Thanks, Sirius! :D

Well, I don't have the time to argue right now, so I'll just leave that to someone else. It's true that each pairing has a 1 in 2 chance of happening. Time to flip the coin :p

GilyAnn

February 10th, 2003, 1:47 pm

WARNING THIS IS LONG!! BECAUSE I FELL EXTREMELLY OFFENDED!!!

Originally posted by Max:
It's too late in the series to introduce any new characters which are possible girlfriends for Harry. "But the future books may be huge!" some say. Sure, the future books may be huge, but didn't Voldie just return at the beginning of '95? The tight little trio will be tighter than ever in book 5, when the survial of the wizarding world is at stake. Strange, though, that JK said that Harry'll get together with someone who's been in all seven books. I know that I've said before that JK's quotes can't be taken seriously, but this quote, however, may be judged differently. Now, let's not be narrow minded like some (I repeat, some) people over at The Sugar Quill, and list down all those who've been there since the beginning of the series.

Your post not only offends me on a personal level it also contradict itself. Making a list of people who has been there from the beginning of the series is not being NARROW MINDED like you call us. It’s called looking for possibilities. I have not seen that particular quote, but if JKR said that Harry will get together with someone that has been in all 7 or 4 books. What harms does to you or anyone else to make a list to explore the possibilities. You contradict yourself calling people narrow minded when you yourself do not see the possibilities with 3 books to go of anyone else being introduced in the series to be Harry’s girlfriend, only because it does not show your preference towards your ship. JKR is a brilliant writer, you do not give her any credit on her being able to introduce anyone just because in your opinion Voldemort has return and the trio would be busy. May I remind you that these are 15 year old characters, not adults who still will have to go to class, make homework, take the OWLS etc. I am sure being JKR a brilliant and educated woman, she is not going to get the trio out of school to do anything else.

It extremely offends me and insults me the way you call people narrow minded on other boards. Just because they look out for possibilities, when a few people in here also don’t see any other possibilities and are not even open to listen like yourself. DEBATE YOUR POSICION WITH ARGUMENTS NOT WITH INSULTS. We are not children, we are adults. PEOPLE NEED TO START TO RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE OPINIONS. IS THE PROBLEM IN THE WORLD TODAY. JUST BECAUSE YOU DON’T THINK THAT SOMEONE IS RIGHT IT DOES NOT MAKE THEIR OPINION WRONG. IF PEOPLE WANT TO USE JKR QOUTES FOR THEIR OPINIONS YOU NEED TO START TO RESPECT THAT. JUST AS WE RESPECT THE FACT THAT YOU DON’T THINK THEY CAN BE USED. YOU CAN ASK FOR ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE BUT DO NOT STATE THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE WRONG, JUST BECAUSE THEY DO NOT SHARE YOUR OPINION.

THIS IS FOR ALL OF US: LEARN TO RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE OPINIONS AND POSITIONS ASK FOR ADDITONAL EVIDENCE WHEN YOU DO NOT SHARE THEIR VIEW BUT DO NOT FEEL THE NEED TO INSULT THEM JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE A POINT DIFFERENT THAN YOURS. THIS IS ABOUT DISCUSSING YOUR OPINIONS NOT INSULTING PEOPLE. AND AT THEN END RESPECT, RESPECT THEIR OPINION.

I am only going to clarify this one last time. Harry’s girlfriend will be the first thing on his life. Hermione will always be his best friend and one additional person that he shares his problems with. I am not pretending for you to see it the way I do. I know it is hard concept, particulary when they are pictures and situations in real life like “My best friend wedding” (I personally hate that picture). My friend has his wife and 5 children (the next weasley’s) they are his first priority and the most important thing on his life. I not only respect that but admire it (I mean 5 kids, woo!) But when I was pregnant with my second daughter I had a really hard time. He called me every day, just to know how I was doing and to see if I needed anything. Just as his priority is his wife and children, mine are also my family, but that does not stop us from still being friends. The same is going to be with Harry and Hermione if they don’t end up together. Their partner would be the first thing on their life but their friendship will always be there. AGAIN, I am not pretending for you to see it my way. People still don’t think that a girl and a boy can be friends and it’s probably because some people have used the “I am just a friend” statement when in fact they are in love with the person. It is a really hard concept to grasp and one that I have debate a lot with other people. I completely understand that you don’t see it the way I do. It’s best understood when you live the experience, rather than when you see it.

On the matter of Ginny and her not having any development I’m going to defer from the opinion. Here is why, JKR has showed us a few things on her personality, what she has not showed us is her in complete character level and other aspects of her life. An example is the Yule Ball. I am ashamed to admit that if I would have been Ginny. I would have dumped Neville and go with Harry. I am ashamed to admit I would do it, it’s so awful and nasty on my part. But I would have seriously have done it. Here we have a girl that has had a crush on a guy for a long time, get the opportunity to go with him to the ball and turns it down just because she said she would go with a person as Neville? Who everybody makes fun and picks on him, and that it would surely guaranteed for people to pick on you too, giving the nature of how mean people are. For me it shows she is a very loyal and true to her word person. Really nice quality on my opinion. In that same situation she also admits she said yes to Neville because she was not going to be able to go anyway, so she thought she at least had some dinner and see the whole thing. Which for me shows she is honest about her acts, even when in this case it sounds like she was not actually attracted to Neville, just to the Ball business only. On that same book, she refuses to say anything to Ron and Harry about who Hermione is going to the ball with. It tells me that she is a person you can confide and would not go gossiping around, even when she is sitting on a huge and exiting secret, like that one. We also know that she does not like teasing, it was shown in CoS when she ask the twins not to tease Percy because he had a girlfriend. Which also shows us that she is a bit too innocent and shows us how easy it was for her to fall under Voldemort hands. Given the nature of the twins. It was sure that they were going to tease Percy about Penelope, even if Ginny was asking them not to. To answer someone question, yes Ginny is teased by her brothers, she tells this to Tom Riddle on the Diary business.

They are few other situations that shows her personality traits, but I think I have extended this long enough. I know she is not develop like Hermione and I completely understand and know that few people will not see this the way I do. But what I am trying to explain is that we know more of her other than the fact that she has a crush on Harry.

lleyki

February 10th, 2003, 4:29 pm

Wow, people are getting offended on this board;

Just a guess but I'm going to assume you're a member of the SugarQuill Gilyann? That said I truly don't think Max meant to insult or offend you and for you to take the post so personally. He always stresses some people when he makes his statements. So please don't get upset,but you may have overreacted a little on this whole thing. Now I myself don't even really know what exact list you two are talking about; however I have visited the forum and I'm not personally attacking you because I get the sense there are alot of people on that site. Too many to know all of them.However when I visited I wasn't even posting here yet and I had only just read COS and POA. I couldn't see why people thought R/Hr was going to happen, so I searched for some sites to convince me. Again, this is not to you personally but you have to be honest and realize that the mood of that place is extremely condescending and patronizing at times. I specifically remember a discussion of people who are H/Hr shippers and people laughing and mocking them. Some saying things like "oh they're people too, just misguided". The atmosphere there is highly annoying and it takes away from all the so-called evidence because someone like me who came completely impartial couldn't stand it for more than a few minutes. Granted it's a site dedicated to that ship but I've visited H/Hr sites where some R/Hr shippers visit the guestbook and are completely rude. This forum in the early beginning had some superior people, and again that's what myself, Turambar, Max and others have tried to do; show people that there are other interpretations. There are people like Darlingchild who always remained a R/Hr shipper but was always applauding and considering other ideas. That's what a forum was for, I thought. To discuss and disagree maturely. Too many of us are taking someone disagreeing with our ideas as a personal attack. If not then they come superior and refuse to ever consider any other idea. They're right and that's it.

I read the rest of your post and I understand you completely. However, judging by the fact that you're a mother, your friend is married with five kids; I am guessing you two are at least in your late twenties. Now I can see now how you can separate the two; but like I said before, we are dealing with teenagers here, when hormones are raging, which heightens feelings of jealousy and possessiveness. You need to keep in mind again, that the teen years are some of the most awkward. We're discovering who we are, while coming to terms with our new and confusing feelings towards the opposite sex. That said, you can't compare the maturity of someone who has experienced life to a teenager's. It is nowhere near the same. You spoke about when you were younger how you became friends with your friend's girlfriends. However, you were the friend. In your eyes everything was fine, because YOU knew nothing was going on between you two. However, you were never in the girlfriend's head. You can't be sure there were NEVER times they felt uncomfortable or threatned. I had no personal experience but I saw a similar situation with my sister. She had a male best friend and a little like Harry was tortured. In short, his stepdad used to abuse his mom. Anyway, I saw him lose girlfriends, my sister lose boyfriends because of their friendship. The girlfriend/boyfriend always started out fine but eventually grew bothered by the fact that they constantly reached out to each other. Believe me my sister was always friends with the girls. Hell, one of the girlfriends was my sister's friend first and eventually she left too. Now they were teens then, only now that they're both twenty-six, are they able to have a lasting relationship.

Before I respond to the evidence on Ginny, let me say Gilyann that alot of people hate how people just put Harry with Ginny because it is convenient. Usually they like R/Hr, so the whole thing just fits like this great puzzle. The reality is very few can give legitimate reasons at all and that annoys some because it is a little insulting for our hero to be with someone out of convenience. However, you and Bluemagic are really a rare case of actually having legitimate reasons for why you support H/G. That said, this is long enough so I'll just comment on the whole Ginny and Neville thing. Again I'll admit that through that situation I saw Ginny was a sweet and loyal person but again that wasn't some big revelation. Honestly, didn't everyone always assume she was? I know I did, so maybe it was just me. However, that still doesn't make her right for Harry. I get the sense that Cho is a pretty sweet girl and almost everyone doesn't think she's right for him.That said; let me reinterate again that Harry NEVER asked Ginny. I honestly don't think that Harry ever even considered Ginny. Even with Ron suggesting it. That said again I'll state that Ginny would have to have no self-respect whatsover to dump Neville. Honestly I'll give that Ginny has never appeared to be lagging after Harry(well except for COS when she showed up at Hagrid), and it would certainly appear that way if she had agreed to go with him in GOF. I hope i can explain this properly. People are making a fuss of her sticking to her date with Neville but again Harry didn't ask Ginny and she was very much aware of that. She was aware that he would be going with her because it was suggested by her brother, again anything else done by Ginny than what she did, would really make her lose respect in my eyes.

The other things you mentioned Gilyann, like I said once before again, all these facts we learned in COS. Harry has been to these people's house again since COS and we have learned little more. As someone pointed out, Ginny was completely invisible from the moment the third task started in GOF. We never saw her again. Again my point and so many others; is that if we are supposed to fall in love with H/G, how about giving us more interaction or at least more scenes where he can see some sort of dynamic between the two? Look at the scene when Harry comes to tell Hermione about the dragons. He mentions her eating with Ginny but that's it. He sits waiting for Hermione to finish with no discussion at all. Would a hi to both of them been that much of a chore? The twins are usually around the three. We saw Percy around them a good bit when he was at school. Bill was in the hospital when Harry got there in GOF. Yet, all this has happened to Harry and the girl we're supposed to connect with and he's supposed to fall in love with is nowhere apparent. Something else, that whole issue of Ginny might be key to something and that's why she is hidden doesn't really work because Neville has been very visible in each book and we never discovered about his parents until it was necessary to. Therefore JK could very much have made Ginny more visible without giving away whatever she may be a key to.

Last thing. Honestly some H/G supporters would you'll ever have seriously considered that pair if Ginny liking Harry was so obvious? Would you'll even really ever remember Ginny?

GilyAnn

February 10th, 2003, 5:40 pm

lleyki I'm not going to comment on your first paragraph, because even thought I visit the site ocasionally what really ticks me off is the name calling.

On the friend thing I completly get you on it. BELIEVE ME I do. I have been friends with him, since Middle schoool trust me I had my fair share of those problems. Human nature, insecuities of people among all those things play a big role on that. Believe me I get your point. I had to make it clear to many times during those years. ( I have something loose on my brain, and every time I used to sense it, I used to blab about it, which sometimes can cause a few misunderstandings and problems but...I had to say it. just for the record)

On the Yule Ball you are totally right Harry never asked Ginny he didn't even say anything. But what I am trying to point out, is that she didn't even TRY. I know I'm awfull person for saying this. But I would have asked at least if he wanted to go with me, pushed the subject a bit. Heck if he would have been interested I would have dumped Neville faster than lighting. I know it is an awful thing to say and god I prayed my daughter doesn't read this. But my point is she didn't even try, she just automaticly said she had a date. **** didn't she at least wanted to find out if he would have gone with her. The girl just stood there and automaticly said no. I don't know if I explain it properly but it was a chance for her to at least start something, but she didn't take it. I know it sounds awful on my part, and heck I'm going to hide this post so my daughter doesn't see it. Because you are right it sounds desperate and she would appear as to have no self respect. But I can easily transport myself on that age and I can clearly remember how does it feel to have a crush on somebody, I would have at least have tried. I just give her a lot of credit to be true to her word and have that much of self respect for saying no because she had a date. Again I am aware Harry didn't ask her but again I would have tried.

On the rooster thing it took me a few readings to figure out she wasn't looking for Harry. She was looking for the rooster that later on we learn that were fatal to the basilik. Read it again and give your feedback since you said you read recently cos because I didn't get that, a friend of mine (h/hr shipper) found that one and it took me a loooong time to understand it.

GoF is my least favorite book on the series. Forgive JKR for what I am about to say. But the book has plot holes and misunderstadings all over. I have no idea if it was the time frame 8 months to write such a big book, but some things were not explained well enough. Just recently I read somewhere that JKR had said in an interview that when she looked at the book she realized she had a missing plot on it. That she wasn't going to say what it was but it was missing. Could this be perhaps why this book has taken so long and it's a chapter longer than the previous. I have no idea what could be the missing plot line. But for some reason I don't seem to connect with the book. I read it only once and I am forcing myself to read it again, just know. I can't coment on the end of that book, because for some reason I get that something is missing and I can't seem to find what it is. Therefore I sort of loose interest on it.

On the Ginny hidden thing. I have a sort of a theory or a clue or whatever we can call this but, it is very crazy and complicated. I have not mention it because when I do people screach at me and then have a fit. But if you want to hear it let me know, because it is long and complicated. I have yet to found someone that is willing to listen entirely.

Mad Eye Mike

February 10th, 2003, 6:21 pm

Originally posted by GilyAnn
GoF is my least favorite book on the series. Forgive JKR for what I am about to say. But the book has plot holes and misunderstadings all over. I have no idea if it was the time frame 8 months to write such a big book, but some things were not explained well enough. Just recently I read somewhere that JKR had said in an interview that when she looked at the book she realized she had a missing plot on it. That she wasn't going to say what it was but it was missing. Could this be perhaps why this book has taken so long and it's a chapter longer than the previous. I have no idea what could be the missing plot line. But for some reason I don't seem to connect with the book. I read it only once and I am forcing myself to read it again, just know. I can't coment on the end of that book, because for some reason I get that something is missing and I can't seem to find what it is. Therefore I sort of loose interest on it.

Can anyone confirm this?

lleyki

February 10th, 2003, 6:27 pm

Okay a few things;

Gilyann I think you and I are remembering different parts of COS. The part I was referring to is pretty early in the novel. I think, it's when Ron is vomiting up the slugs(not sure and I leant all the books to my cousin who's never read them). Hagrid tells him that he met his sister and that she said she was looking for him. However, according to Hagrid she seemed more interested in Harry. It was just a whole scene of Hagrid teasing Harry because from one meeting alone, he can see that Ginny likes him and Harry tells him to shut up in an irritated way. It was kind of a cute scene. Can't tell you the actual chapter though because actually what I said was COS was the first book I read in the series. That was awhile ago. Actually I haven't read any of the books in awhile. I think my cousin has stolen them.

I hear you about the Ginny thing and her saying something. However, if she had said something to him outright, I would definitely have gained a little more interest in her; because it was something I certainly wouldn't expect. Even though we don't really know Ginny well, I get the sense she is a little shy. The blushing everytime suggests that. Plus if she could be bold enough to say something like that to him; I think she would have made more of an effort to speak to him when he's at her house. Hell I know for sure I would. My point is therefore, boldness like that would seem out of character for how she's been portrayed in the books. However it certainly would have made her a little more interesting. That's another thing I've had a problem with is that Ginny can't seem to talk to Harry and if she had done what you said; a simple direct statement to him on whether he wanted to go with her or not, I would certainly have paid a little more attention to her. Btw, you shouldn't feel bad about what you're saying. You're human; we all have the ability to be inconsiderate sometimes. Especially when we're young and childish.

I hear you completely on GOF and I think it was Mike you had a very good post critiquing the book. That's why I was surprised in her last post Bluemagic said most people hated COS. I always got the feeling that after POA, that was most people's favourite. Anyway, about your idea or theory; sure I'd be willing to hear it. As I've said, when I read COS I actually thought H/G was very adorable. However, I just couldn't understand why nothing was done in terms of that pair at all. Therefore if someone can convince me that making Ginny as invisible as she is was necessary, I'm all ears. Warning though, if it's really long, most people won't read it anyway.

ferpectly

February 10th, 2003, 7:40 pm

First of all, I am for a Ron-hermione relationship.

After reading most of the posts (I ran out of time to read all of them :), I feel that there is an important point to be noted, which is not being addressed.

1. The book is from harrys point of view, so what we see happenning is what we see when he is around. That is why we are always witnesses to ron and hermione as they are around him.

2. We do not get to know of whats does happen when they are together (which does happen in PoA, when harry meets them together. hermione was already staying withe the weasleys). Also, in GoF, when harry and ron have the fight, hermione tells harry that ron is jealous, which means to say that she has been spending time with ron too trying to soothe his feelings.

3. I do agree that it seems that harry and hermione do connect better, but since we are not given an opportunity to find out how well ron and hermione interact when they are alone, we cant say anything about their compatibilities.

4. Also, ron has a funny way of showing his feelings,, all through he has kept whining about his rat, but in PoA, he stands up for it. This goes to show that ron does have feelings, but only when he is cornered, is he honest about them.

5. Since harry is almost always the one in the midst of an adventure or trouble, hermione seems to help him out more as he needs a friend more than ron does.

Anyway, this is become a long enough post :))

BabyMars

February 10th, 2003, 7:58 pm

LOL!!! :rotfl:

This just gets funnier and funnier! I enjoy reading your posts Max. Most of posts on this page are soooo long!!! Will the H/Hers and the R/Hers ever get along??

Oh, and GilyAnn, I have seen the quote Max talked about in his post. The one about JKR saying that Harry will end up with someone who has been in all the books so far. I've read this at a few different sites, but I cannot provide a link off the top of my head. I'd be more than happy to find it for you!!

In hopes of not contradicting one of my previous posts, I will explain my reasons for believe this quote by JKR. There are some quotes of hers that will give information, such as Harry being with a girl in all the previous books.( I don't know the exact quote. Sorry! I will try to look it up!) Now, a quote such as "Something is going on, but Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy" could mean lots of things. It can make you think one thing, but can be totally decieving at the same time. While that quote is more open ended, the other quote is more factual. Factual quotes are good with me, but basing someone's knowledge of future books on open-ended quotes, shouldn't do so (In my opinion of course!). I'm not refering to you at all GilyAnn, I very much enjoy your posts because you always have excellent arguments, but a lot of people do take ALL of JKR's quotes completely serious. (Can we say run-on sentence??) Sorry, just supporting my reasons for believing in some JKR quotes and not others.

Wait a second, a hole in the plot in GOF??I guess it depends on how important that "hole" is. Hmmmmmmm....let's see here.....A lot of people have noticed that we don't really know how Hermione feels about either of the boys. Maybe that's what JKR accidently left out. She made it clear what both boys felt, maybe she forgot to include how Hermione felt. That would definitely makes things clearer.Then we all wouldn't be having these silly arguments. I can see her havig to write that into the plot of book 5 since she forgot it in book 4. Just an idea though, don't take my word for it!

Ooooooo!!! GinyAnn, post your theory on Ginny! Will you make her evil?? J/k :angel:

Hey, I might as well join the league of long posts....

Cheers :smooch:

Turambar

February 10th, 2003, 9:02 pm

Mike: There's a list of transcripts from JKR interviews you can get to from the front page of Mugglenet. In a couple of them she mentions writing GOF, realising there was a plot hole and then having to rewrite. Originally there was going to be a character who is Ron's cousin but apparently Rita took over some of the functions in the book of that character.
GilyAnn: Don't be offended, we're all keen on having a good debate! I enjoy reading your posts, it's a different point of view and that's good to read. Sirius, for instance, made a good point about the interaction between Ron and Hermione by post over summer, showing how they get on when they're not with Harry. What that shows is that their relationship doesn't just depend on Harry to work. Sometimes when there's a trio one person dominates the relationships and the other two don't get on so well separately.

GilyAnn

February 10th, 2003, 10:06 pm

Mad Eye Mike Here is the piece of the second interview where she mention this the first one I can't find it. But in it she does not say that she fix if if I'm not mistaken.

Q: You mentioned something in a recent interview about a flaw in Book 4. . .

A: Did I? Oh yes. . .I repaired it! This is why Book 4 nearly caused me a nervous breakdown - because for the first time ever I lost my careful plot - which I've had since 1994, I think. I really should have gone through it with a fine toothcomb before I started writing and I didn't. I had a false sense of security because all my other plans had held up so well. So I sailed straight into the writing of Four, having just finished Azkaban. I had written what I thought at the time was half the book - it turns out now to have been about a third of the book - and I realised there was this big hole in the middle of the plot and I had to go back and unpick and redo. That's part of the reason it's longer than I thought it was going to be.

Q: Can you say what the flaw was, or would that spoil things ?

A: No, because that would ruin it.

lleyki No we are taking about the same chapter it is #7 of CoS. I understood primary what you understood she was following Harry. We don't hear from Ginny visiting Hagrid again. So she knows that Hagrid has roosters from that time. Remeber that Hagrid says that Ginny told him "Said she was jus' lookin' round the grounds, but I reckon she was hopin' she might run iner someone else at my house." She was actually looking for the roosters is what they claim because after it the rooster are killed remember it was on Halloween. Let me know if you follow me because it took me a looong time to get the conection of that but I saw it eventually. Is not toguether in the same chapter so it is hard to spot at.

One thing I have learned not to follow is a characters word. Just a few examples Ron claims that Ginny usually never shuts up but she blushes and does not talk around anybody. We usually see her around Fred and George. Why else would she confide her most personal things to a diary!! I agree with you on the thing about her being shy. Another example was on Barty crouch jr. thing. Sirius said he was dead, Jkr said nothing can bring the dead people. So I ruled him out of the mess. Well guess what he wasn't dead to begin with surprise!!! So just because a character says something it does not mean it is true. Also she seems to interrupt characters with other things when they begin something that hides a clue. I have tons of those to prove it. Sneaky the woman.

I'm going to on parts on the things I find weird about Ginny because it's long and they are a lot of posibilities and I want you all to understand what I am getting at before you say it can never happend.
Please, you'll need to be VERY, VERY OPEN MINDED.

Jkr seems to have and said in an interview that she was a freak name or something like that meaning that she like names to have meaning. If I get the interview I'll posted. ON PoA I figure out Lupin secret before finishing the novel. Looking at the meaning of the name and peeves joke about "Loony Lupin" remember that?
Well Ginny''s name it's short from Virginia if you look at the name it post:

Feminine form of the Roman family name Virginius which was possibly derived from Latin virgo "maid, virgin". According to legend, she was a Roman woman killed by her father so as to keep her a virgin.

Well we all know Mr. & Mrs. Weasley they wouldn't do that. But could this mean that she is not actually their daughter? Among 6 boys JKR keeps on remind us that she is the only girl. Which takes me to next point why does the Weasley have 7 children (keep in mind that that number is a special one in greek mithology) everybody else seem to have 1 or 2 children and everybody seems to be amazed by the fact that the weasley's have a lot of children. In GoF we get the description of each of the Weasley Clan. But IN MY OPINION she doesn't seem to follow their pattern. I can't find for the life of me any book that says she has frekles. Something a lot of H/G argue with me. Even in CoS on the chamber she is just described as her "face white as marble." But unless the freckles and the resemblance is on a british edition I don't see it. If any of you do, please post it. For little we know she is short, when everybody is describe a normal size or tall and she had long red hair and her face seems to resemblance at one point marble. The only seems that ties her to the Weasley's is the red hair. Up until book 4 and in my opinion. Let me know your 411 on that matter it bugs me, it just do. Somehow I don't find her conected to them.

A thing that bugs me out a lot is why we missed her sorting ceremony. Yes I know that was the whole car incident. And everybody tells me that Harry missed also the ceremony on PoA, but if Ginny was Ron sister why did we HAD to missed it. On Harry's ceremony we seems to find how much time it takes for each student to be sorted. I wonder did it take the sorting hat as much as time as it took with Harry and Neville. Noone has ever mention it her sorting but we also don't hear Harry telling Ron or Hermione about the sorting hat trying to place him on slyterin.

When Ginny writes on the Diary Riddle says "that ginny poured out his soul to me and her soul happend to be exactly what I wanted ... I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepets fears her darkest secrets." Ok what types of fears can a eleven year old, that is not even allow to go in into a pyramid to see the momies (PoA) can have? Yes you are going to say every child has fears. But seriously are these girls fears so huge that can feed a MEMORY? Her darkest secrets. Here we go again. What darkest secrets. Here is a girl whose mother is contantly protecting her that has 6 brothers having darkest secrets. Heck I would love to find out what are those. Those these dark secrets has anything to do with powers perhaps. Because it's the only thing I can think of, unless the posibility of her not being a blood daughter of the Weasley's allows her to remember some child things like Harry? I honestly don't get the darkest secrets remarks. I mean we all have fear and worries at 11 but the fears and secrets of this girl are so powerful that were able to feed a MEMORY and allow it to leaves it pages, geez they must be pretty big, then. I feel there is more to the story than what we know.

I'm going to stop here because I have no idea if somebody understood me so if you didn't let me know. I'm not done with her! there is more things that bug me off on her.

Don't get me wrong I love her character and I don't think she will go evil. I believe her to be a shy, honest and very loyal friend that seem to have nice artistic abilities if I may add. But I don't think they told us the whole story on her.

Max

February 10th, 2003, 10:51 pm

GillyAnn, I apologize for offending you. I think that there has been a misunderstanding there. I was just proposing that we list all the characters that have been there since the beginning of the series. lleyki has explained what I meant quite well. I was just stating that some people over at the Sugar Quill can't accept the evidence from H/Hr shippers and respond by attacking them. I respect your opinion of G/H, and I don't disagree.

BabyMars

February 10th, 2003, 10:56 pm

Awww, let's all be one big happy family of H/Hers and R/Hers now!

Cheers :smooch:

Turambar

February 10th, 2003, 11:06 pm

GilyAnn: Interesting theory.
The only red heads we know about in the series apart from the Weasleys are Lily and (originally) Dumbledore.
Are you suggesting Ginny could be Harry's sister? Lily's red hair, age, and hidden dark secrets might fit as would the likelihood that Dumbledore would send her to the Weasleys because she wouldn't look out of place and they're a good wizarding family.
But, a) surely someone would know if the Potters had had another baby b) the Weasleys would know and know about their connection to Harry but there's been no hint of it and c) there hasn't been a hint that Ginny is adopted.

Mad Eye Mike

February 10th, 2003, 11:11 pm

Turambar: Thank you for pointing me in the direction of JKR's interviews so I could find that quote.

GilyAnn: Thank you for posting an excerpt from said interview so I didn't have to go searching for it. :p

GilyAnn, though I don't know how probable it is, I do like your Ginny theory of what kind of dark secrets does an 11 year old girl have that Tom Riddle was able to feed on? If nothing else, it's something to think about until June 21 when we find out more about her & just how big of a part she plays in OotP.

Mad Eye Mike

February 10th, 2003, 11:18 pm

[i]Originally posted by Turambar
Are you suggesting Ginny could be Harry's sister? Lily's red hair, age, and hidden dark secrets might fit as would the likelihood that Dumbledore would send her to the Weasleys because she wouldn't look out of place and they're a good wizarding family.

Oh God I hope not :no: as that's would just be icky. A sister having a crush on her brother [even though she didn't know at the time]. This would be as bad as Leia giving Luke that big ol' kiss :smooch: in the Empire Strikes Back only to later discover that they're siblings.

I think it's be a great twist if it weren't already established that Ginny liked Harry.

Dreamprincess288

February 10th, 2003, 11:26 pm

You know.... I've been thinking... why do we always pair Harry with Hermione and Ginny? I mean, we know the girl Harry will date has been mentioned since the 1st book... but think how many girls have been mentioned since the first book? There's the people from the sorting hat ceromony, people in his classes, people from other houses, etc. I know most of you are gonna go "but J.K. hasn't developed any of those charecters!" But we are looking at a HUGE book when you think of OOTP... I mean, it's very easy for an author to develop a character in 1000+ pages (the American edition). When people normally read books, for english class or something, they are no where near the length of J.K.'s books! Yet, the authors are still able to convey a message, fully develop their characters, and so on... they even give enough information in a measly 200 pages or so for you to discuss in over a month of classtime! And I remeber reading the interview with J.K. and she says that Harry will go on his FIRST date with someone we know from all 4 books, that it won't be Hermione and that it would really surprise us. First of all... don't get mad at me I said it's not gonna be Hermione... I mean she only mentioned the FIRST date... the FIRST date could be anyone! It could be a girl that Harry meets, starts to like... and then at some event, like a dance or something, he asks her to it and the have a date. It could just be a really simple thing. I mean, he's only 15 anyway!

... also, some people on this forum need to be a little more *open-minded* I mean, I understand you all have your opinions and have a couple that you're hoping for but just because someone disagrees with your opinions, don't hold it against them or contradict everything they're saying!

Turambar

February 10th, 2003, 11:35 pm

Dreamprincess: Can you remember where that quote was from because I've now read four variations on it.
Actually I think the debate here is quite civilised. I've read other forums where people have been very arrogant and rude to each other about their ships.
Mike: Too true! But I'd sooner she was killed off or turned out to be his sister than she gets her hands on Harry. There's my *****y comment for the day...

BabyMars

February 10th, 2003, 11:36 pm

Cool theory on Ginny maybe being Harry's sister. I can actually see the probability of that happening. That would definitely give Ginny and bigger role in the 5th book. It actually all kind of makes sense! Good observation, but we'll just have to wait and see.

(This theory is only kewl in my eyes because that means H/G could never happen, thank God....)

LOL...Turambar... Death to Ginny!! (Please don't hurt me!!!)

Cheers :smooch:

GilyAnn

February 10th, 2003, 11:49 pm

Turambar that's one theory. That I had though about it, will all the things you posted. Although it bugs me because I don't think Dumbledore would have separate them and by now we would have known because of the photos that Harry has and everything, that kind of thing would be harder to avoid. So no I don't think she is Harry's sister But how about this:

Ginny being Voldemort daugther (This guy must have a life before at some point) or her being trully a Weasley but the Weasley's being descendant of Salazar Slytherin. Why do I say this? The chamber of Secrets entrance is on a girls bathroom???? Out of all of the places on Howgarts a girls bathroom. Does anyone else feels funny about this or is it just me? Could Ginny be Slytherin Heir? Everybody shrieks and screams at me when I say this. But why does is it impossible. Again, I'm not trusting Voldemort words that he is the heir of slytering. Sirius said that barty crouch jr. was dead and he wasn't. So I am not taking his words.
One person told me that the chapter is called slytering Heir but does it say who it is? Does it specificly say it's riddle, NO. Because there is only 3 people and all 3 could open the chamber. So who of the 3 is slytherin Heir? They are no coincidences on Jkr books so I don't think it's a coincidence that the entrance is on a girls bathroom and that Ginny was the one who open it. Which takes me to the next point if Riddle was a memory and initially he just possed her to control her, then he had to used initially the magic she had in her, right? Can we say this? Then Ginny has some abilities that they are not telling us.

All villans believed to be something they were not, including Jkr favorite hitler could this be the case?

One statement that bugs me is the one of Mr. Weasley after they find Ginny. He seems to stamperd and He says "But Ginny's not..." Ginny is not WHAT? **** we get interrupted again. He doesn't even know what has happen to her. This is your child for cry out loud don't you know her? He ends up asking "...Has she?" and then Harry interrupts AGAIN. How unnerving woman put these characters to speak clearly because it's so confusing...:grumble:

Mad Eye Mike

February 10th, 2003, 11:55 pm

Originally posted by Dreamprincess288
And I remeber reading the interview with J.K. and she says that Harry will go on his FIRST date with someone we know from all 4 books, that it won't be Hermione and that it would really surprise us.

First off...LOL@ Turambar!

Secondly: Technically speaking, Harry's "First Date" was with the girl he took to the Yule Ball [Parvati?]. Now as for it being a surprise, not all surprises are good ones, so I hope JKR fleshes out whoever it is better than she did with the characters from GoF.

But I believe I've narrowed down who Harry will go out on a date with.

1. Professor McGonagall - A magical version of "The Graduate" will ensue at Hogwarts.

2. Madam Pomfrey - Harry is always in the hospital & like many nurses who fall for their patients, Pomfrey won't be able to resist.

3. Mrs. Weasley - In an homage to Shakespeare, Harry's date with Molly puts more strain on an already shaky relationship with Ron causing him to become a Death Eater.

lanifiel

February 10th, 2003, 11:57 pm

wow look at all the first years... :)

People an important rule that everyone needs to learn and understand in a message board is that you engage a persons ideas, feel free to shoot holes in them with what you think but do not attack the person who said it. It is their own opinion and in accordance with the rules and regs of the CoS forums anyone caught attacking another member will be warned.

2. We want all members to enjoy stimulating debate as well as make friends. Therefore attacking other members will not be tolerated. If you see an offensive post, please use the 'Report this post to the Moderator' link, and we will handle it from there. Please do not reply to the post in question.

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Everyone here loves the Harry Potter saga, don't destroy it by attacking each other...

GilyAnn

February 11th, 2003, 12:00 am

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Turambar
Are you suggesting Ginny could be Harry's sister? Lily's red hair, age, and hidden dark secrets might fit as would the likelihood that Dumbledore would send her to the Weasleys because she wouldn't look out of place and they're a good wizarding family.

Oh God I hope not as that's would just be icky. A sister having a crush on her brother [even though she didn't know at the time]. This would be as bad as Leia giving Luke that big ol' kiss in the Empire Strikes Back only to later discover that they're siblings.

***

I think it's be a great twist if it weren't already established that Ginny liked Harry.

I don't like this posibility either I lean more to the side of the Weasley's being slythering descendant or ancestor what ever you want to call it. Besides I want H/G to happen.:love:

LOL MIKE AND TURAMBAR that was sooo funny.:clappy:

Turambar

February 11th, 2003, 12:09 am

LOL Mike!!! You forgot Madam Sprout - getting down and dirty between the mandrakes and the bubotubers...

Gabriel

February 11th, 2003, 1:05 am

Ok I am very confused and there is to many big posts and people getting upset. I am old and may die before finsihing one let alone, all of them, but can I ask someone.

Does someone believe that Ginny may be Harry's sister. Could you explain in a few very short, paragraphs how!

Gabriel

February 11th, 2003, 1:10 am

Look I am so confused I forgot to make my on topic point which is, I think it is about time Dumbledore made an honest woman of Minerva, thats all folks.^_~

BabyMars

February 11th, 2003, 1:40 am

[i]Originally posted by GilyAnn:

Ginny being Voldemort daugther (This guy must have a life before at some point) or her being trully a Weasley but the Weasley's being descendant of Salazar Slytherin. Why do I say this? The chamber of Secrets entrance is on a girls bathroom???? Out of all of the places on Howgarts a girls bathroom. Does anyone else feels funny about this or is it just me? Could Ginny be Slytherin Heir? Everybody shrieks and screams at me when I say this. But why does is it impossible. Again, I'm not trusting Voldemort words that he is the heir of slytering. Sirius said that barty crouch jr. was dead and he wasn't. So I am not taking his words. One person told me that the chapter is called slytering Heir but does it say who it is? Does it specificly say it's riddle, NO. Because there is only 3 people and all 3 could open the chamber. So who of the 3 is slytherin Heir? They are no coincidences on Jkr books so I don't think it's a coincidence that the entrance is on a girls bathroom and that Ginny was the one who open it. Which takes me to the next point if Riddle was a memory and initially he just possed her to control her, then he had to used initially the magic she had in her, right? Can we say this? Then Ginny has some abilities that they are not telling us.

All villans believed to be something they were not, including Jkr favorite hitler could this be the case?

One statement that bugs me is the one of Mr. Weasley after they find Ginny. He seems to stamperd and He says "But Ginny's not..." Ginny is not WHAT? **** we get interrupted again. He doesn't even know what has happen to her. This is your child for cry out loud don't you know her? He ends up asking "...Has she?" and then Harry interrupts AGAIN. How unnerving woman put these characters to speak clearly because it's so confusing...:grumble:

LOL!!! Ginny the heir of Slythenin!! YES!!! I LOVE IT!! LOL :rotfl:

Cheers :smooch:

Turambar

February 11th, 2003, 1:56 am

Gabriel: the Harry/Ginny angle was something I came up with from a few ideas of GilyAnn's but it's probably too Star Wars cheesy to hold water.

muziklover

February 11th, 2003, 1:59 am

The books are from Harry's point of view, right? My opinion is that since Harry doesn't interact much with Ginny, it would explain why Ginny is not mentioned in the books often. We get to read more about Ron or Hermione of course because they're Harry's best friends and Harry sees and talks to them more regularly. Ginny is a year younger than Harry and they don't share any classes. They only see each other once in a while. Harry doesn't know that much about her and that's why not much is written about her in the books. Also, he's not showing any interest in her at the moment. If he finally gets to know more about Ginny and takes an interest in her, then we will know it when she will be mentioned more often in the next book/s and read about how Harry describes her or like how he feels when he's with her. If JK Rowling's planning to get Harry and Ginny together, maybe she will make him notice her more in the upcoming book but that they won't get together until Book 6 or 7. She could be letting them grow up first (esp.emotionally) and experience other things (like Harry's crush on Cho) before getting together. In Goblet of Fire, Ginny still blushes when she sees him but she can already look him in the eye and talk to him. She's growing up. They're both growing up. Also, it's possible that JK wants to show that over the years, Ginny's crush is turning into something deeper, more mature or serious. She's "languishing in love" as JK quoted. If Ginny gets in a relationship with Harry in the future, then it will be because she truly cares for and loves Harry and not because she "hero-worships" him.

One other thing. Since these books are from Harry's point of view, we don't get to know much about what happens when Ron and Hermione are together and Harry's not present. But you could see that they don't always bicker. The two of them also enjoy each other's company like in the instances when Hermione went to the Weasleys and when they came back from Hogsmeade:
"It was dusk, and Ron and Hermione had just turned up in the common room, pink-faced from the cold wind and looking as though they'd had the time of their lives." (From Prisoner of Azkaban)

If they were already attracted to each other, their being together there could have intensified it. If not, an attraction could have started there. Who knows?

Ame

February 11th, 2003, 2:08 am

GillyAnn, I have to admit I sort of like this idea of Ginny being the heir to Slytherin.

I agree with you, you really can't go on what the characters say. And I have also considered the idea that Voldemort is not the true heir. If Ginny was to be the heir in some way, that would bring an extremely unexpected twist to the tale. But again, we seem to agree on a lot, because I also wondered why the entrance to the Chamber was in a girl's bathroom. I mean Salazar created the chamber, correct? Than wouldn't he have wanted it in some place more accessible to him than the girl's bathroom? The dungeon perhaps? Maybe even somewhere on the outside grounds? Or at the top of the highest tower... anywhere but there!

Unlike some, I am fond of Ginny. And though JKR has not developed her as throughly as others, she has given us some definite insight into the girl's character. Like not dumping Neville. One has to admit the girl's got integrity.

This is in no way evidence supporting an H/G pairing. I just feel that Ginny isn't given enough credit. But as far as a pairing between these two, I am on a line. I can understand why people support it and why others oppose it. And I am at a conflict right now. But dating or not, I do believe that Ginny and Harry's connection developed in CoS will be of a great significance. It's just, what can it be?

Sirius83

February 11th, 2003, 2:32 am

*looks around*
Hey, my first post here...thought i'd put in a few words after reading some of this topic - forgive me though, i didn't read nearly half of all 86 pages! :)

Now, i am an H/Hr shipper, but i do hope that my post doesn't come off as sounding biased. I will admit that at first look, the books point at an H/R relationship, but when you start looking at it properly, could this really happen, or if it does, last? It is true that Hermione and Ron argue a lot, and its blatently obvious that Ron has a crush on Hermione. BUT - there is no evidence of those feelings being returned. Hermione is the more controlled type(somewhat like Harry?) but who can lose her temper if pushed enough. After the way Ron acted throughout the yule ball scenario, couldn't it just be that she lost that temper up in the common room? Lets face it, Ron asked Hermione after going after other girls, used her as a last resort. Of course she was mad at him - of course she said next time to ask her first. I believe she would go to a dance with either of her friends, but didn't like being used as a last resort.

Its also true that we see the story mainly through Harry's POV, but if an event with the other characters had enough of a bearing on the story(such as a relationship between 2 of the trio), we would see it written. Its not solid ground to say for instance 'She could have kissed Ron too but we don't see it because its Harry's POV'(sorry don't recall the exact words).

Now personally, i can't see a R/Hr relationship doing well for the the series. Wouldn't this make Harry a third wheel? Or rather, wouldn't it distance Ron and Hermione from the storyline? Right now they're Harry's best friends. Now - if an H/Hr were to take place, we still have all 3 characters playing roles. Ron is still the best friend, but Hermione moves up to girlfriend(or rather love affair, as i don't see a true relationship involving Harry happening before book 7!)

Rowling says that the characters are all looking at the wrong people, right? So, doesn't that mean that Hermione/Krum is out, Ron/Hermione is out and Harry/Cho is out? According to the way it looks in GoF? Krum plays the role of Hermione's teen infatuation...its the same situation with H/C and R/Hr if you ask me! This is bound to change before the end of the series.

I'd also like to point out the fact that Hermione started crying on Ron in book 3...i saw someone mention that earlier in the thread. You know, that doesn't really mean that much. While she was on awkward terms with both Harry and Ron at the time, Harry was still the one who tried to talk to her sometimes(example after the Quidditch game)...Ron, one of her best friends - was just plain out angry with her, but he had finally given in to help with Buckbeak's case - when Hermione was in an emotional state. Really, it would have been sort of odd if she started crying on Harry, wouldn't it?

Now, doesn't Harry complain that people don't see him for who he is, but only for his fame? Really, there are few people who see him for who he really is, and lets face it - the only girl out of them is Hermione. Yes, Harry finds her boring to be with alone at the moment, but isn't Hermione supposed to start lightening up? She's the one who's always been there for him. We know they both mean more to each other than can be described, who's to say this won't become romance eventually? And like i've said before, out of H/Hr and R/Hr, only a H/Hr won't destroy the trio. I also see the trend that Rons relationship with Harry and Hermione isn't as strong as it once was, while Harry and Hermione's seem to be growing stronger...interesting.

I don't believe we will be seeing either of those relationships in book 5 though. But we may be able to see who Hermione really likes rather than just the fact she seems closer to Harry. We may also see who Harry likes, as Cho is almost definately out of the picture now with Cedric dead. Harry can no longer look at her because he feels guilty.

I'd just like to touch on H/G since a lot of people seem to think this is what will happen...somehow, i don't see it happening. Ginny is Harry's best friends little sister...that might be a little odd to work with. She also sees him like a celebrity, something Harry doesn't like being seen as. Also(don't flame me for this please) i believe Ginny is the one who will die in OOTP. I'll be posting that in the correct thread, but i should mention why here also since i brought it up. Rowling said there will be a death in book 5, painful to write about. She also said Ginny would play a larger role in book 5. I also believe she said this person is a fan of Harry's...this puts Ginny in the position to be the one to die. Harry can't exactly have a relationship with a dead girl.

Wow, long first post...i hope i didn't leave out too much to support my theories as i really do need to get some work done now! Nice board btw.