Could James be alive in Lupin's body?

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Emerson
February 27th, 2003, 9:30 pm
Read this:

http://www.mugglenet.com/lupinsidentity.shtml

Like many of you, at first I thought "no way!" and I'm still very skeptical, but I will definitely keep an open mind about it.

What do you think?

doctor23
February 27th, 2003, 9:48 pm
We have been told over and over by JKR that we will never see James or Lily ALIVE. Since if Remus were actually James we would be seeing James Alive James can't be Remus.

Natooken
February 27th, 2003, 9:52 pm
So right you are doctor23, BUT int the physical since both James and Lily are dead in deed. James mind and spirit simply lives on through Lupin(If it were true).

I think it is a really good thory and I now know another book I must go read/buy.

FoolOnTheHill
February 27th, 2003, 9:52 pm
Interesting... But yes, JKR has said we'll never see the Potters alive. It's a little too out there for me.

Dedalus
February 27th, 2003, 9:55 pm
All the evidence is explainable by other things. But there are a few important flaws in the theory ...

1) Wouldn't James be a horrible man to kill one of his best friends for selfish purposes? Even if Lupin offered, James would surely have never agreed?

2) Why wouldn't he have said?

3) Wouldn't he then know that Sirius was innocent?

4) Wouldn't he then have known about Pettigrew, and tried to kill him himself? He seemed to have known about Scabbers well enough ("12 years in fact ... "), and so perhaps would have thought to be suspicious as Sirius was, if he knew Pettigrew was still alive.

5) Lupin has his own personality.

6) When James' memory came out of the wand, surely, even if it looked like James it wouldn't act like him, if it were actually Lupin?

7) James must know Lupin's history and identity pretty well to fool everyone, and speak about himself and his history in such detail. He would have even fooled Sirius.

8) What would be the point? Why can't Lupin just exist and James be dead? So Harry can have a father, and Sirius loses out? So Lupin can't fight for his own rights? So a lot of the things said in the books are contradicted?



Plus, to contradict the other points ...
JKR mentions in several interviews that Lupin is her favorite character, and that Lupin made book 3 so important to write.
Why wouldn't Lupin be her favourite character without being as important as James?

Unlike everyone else, Lupin never stared at Harry's scar, or mentioned his eyes or resemblance to his father. Lupin addresses Harry by name as if he was already very familiar with him. (Chapter 5)
That's because he did know him as a child. And he knows kids well enough to know their personalities ... I feel like he didn't want Harry to feel like he was "special", but in a more kindly way than Snape. He didn't grab his shoulder when Harry was upset, because he knew Harry doesn't take kindly to pity.

"'I certainly don't want Harry dead...' An odd shiver passed over his face." (Chapter 17)
That's not just a teacher or friend saying that. JKR must have added that second bit for a reason.
Ermm ... why? I'm sure even a mild aquiantance wouldn't want Harry dead either. And the odd shiver was due to the line he said after that.

Lupin enters the room in "a shower of red sparks."
All spells have different colours. And a lot of things are red.

-Lupin, who was "both shaken and pleased," comes over to congratulate Harry on his spectacular Patronus. (Chapter 13)
Lupin must have been "shaken" from seeing that Harry's Patronus is James's own Patronus.
No ... he was shaken because Harry had just done a really good Patronus, had blasted it at some students, and had just been in a rather good Quidditch match.

-Lupin has "no hesitation" about what Harry's father would think. (Chapter 18)
How can he be so sure about what Harry's father would think?
Because he was his friend. Dumbledore, Hagrid, Sirius Black, even Pettigrew all talk similarly about James.

When Harry tells Lupin he is hearing his mum's voice louder, Lupin looks "paler than usual." Harry then tells Lupin how he hears his his dad's voice for the first time trying to old off Voldemort so his mom could escape. "'You heard James?' said Lupin in a strange voice." (Chapter 12)
Why would Lupin react oddly to Harry hearing James? Because of the strange circumstances he realized it wasn't James saying it, it was Lupin.
This boy sat in front of him heard his own parents dying. And this boys parents were some of his own best friends.

-Trelawney said that Lupin "positively fled" when she offered to crystal gaze for him. (Chapter 1l)
We thought that Lupin fled because he didn't want anyone to find out that he was a werewolf, but later in the story Dumbledore tells Harry that all of the staff had already been told that. He's afraid of something else being exposed -- why else would he run?
Who wouldn't flee from Trelawney? That might have just be for humour ... Trelawney took it too literally, but McGonagall didn't ("Imagine that"). Plus, we know Trelawney didn't know that Lupin was a werewolf ... she thought he was ill, like the students. Remember the Christmas conversation?

... And this'll be a very long post if I go any further. The point is, all these things are just randomly connected to James. They're more connected to Lupin, and for obvious reasons ... because he is Lupin.

And a very major point to add ... I like Professor Lupin. I think me and most other people would rather he be himself, than be a "happy ever after" James. That theory would reduce the point of two of the most incredible characters ... Lupin and Sirius. If Harry got his dad back, what would that make of Sirius? What would it make of James, if he sacrificed his own friend to help himself? What would that do to the wonderful character of Lupin, to know that he doesn't exist? It's a good job the theory doesn't make any sense!

tizzy weasley
February 27th, 2003, 10:05 pm
I think James can be in Lupins body, evne though JKR did say that the Potters said that they won't come back.
I know when I read this on MNet I got a little confused. But maybe JKR made a few mistakes or accidentally condritdicted herself. I'm still not sure. I hope Lupin is James. It would be kinda cool. But I'm still not sure. Can that really happen?

Essbee
February 27th, 2003, 10:10 pm
I don't believe that it is James, mainly because JK said we will *never* see a live Lily or James Potter. And James in Lupin's body is very much alive I'm afriad!!!

Kendra
February 27th, 2003, 10:21 pm
JK never contradicts herself.
All the time through reading the argument, I kept thinking of things to explain the counter-argument, and that was one of them.

But, we all know JRK does twist her words in hints. A spirit of James is not a 'live' James, though if it is James' spirit, it does leave me puzzled about the shadow of James - or Lupin if the theory is correct. That must mean we saw Lupin in James's form, but wouldn't the spell die after one person died and the spell wouldn't show in the shadow form would it?!

Then again, we have seen an example of a similar thing happen. Voldemort took over Quirrel's body in PS, but left quirrel for dead and it wasn't in the same circumstances.

It does, However, nicely tie in with the ghost theory, maybe James left and was part of Lupin in spirit form, his memory perhaps? It does then throw questions upon why people become ghosts or not, because spirits are technically supernatural/ghosts.

My opinion?

For now, at least, I think Lupin is Lupin. Not James. I believe JK said he was crucial for Book 3 for other reasons that will be revealed in the coming books. Don't forget we know very little really about the wizarding world and advanced spells such as these.

Knight
February 27th, 2003, 10:23 pm
That's a pretty shaky theory for many reasons, but the most obvious I can think of is that there would be no reason for James to hide his existence from Harry (and everyone else) for 11 years. All the "fatherly" acts made by Lupin are really just caring for a dead friend's son.

Cat
February 27th, 2003, 10:36 pm
I agree with Dedalus, I don't think this 'theory' makes the slightest bit of sense, wherever it came from. It's like saying that Harry's almighty guardian protector is the ancient and mystic Sock God. I'm sure you could hazard some flimsy reasoning to explain the latter. But it still wouldn't make any sense.

I wouldn't want the theory to make sense. I wouldn't like it even in fan fiction. Why? Well, actually, Dedalus said so. Taking a friend's life would be the most evil thing James could do. Lupin could offer it, and he would refuse outright.


In fact, just read all of Dedalus' responses. They knock the theory on it's arse.

EDIT: hah, thinking about it you could probably use that 'evidence' to prove that Professor Lupin is:
a) A Death Eater
b) A guardian angel
c) Attracted to James
d) Female
e) Lily Potter
f) Chris Waddle
g) A banana
h) The ancient and mystic Sock God

Emerson
February 27th, 2003, 11:39 pm
Originally posted by Essbee (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=192314#post192314))
I don't believe that it is James, mainly because JK said we will *never* see a live Lily or James Potter. And James in Lupin's body is very much alive I'm afriad!!!

I'm afraid you may be emphasizing the wrong word. JKR said "we will never SEE a live Lily or James Potter."

Of course, I could be wrong. And I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this theory, because I'm not sure, but I just wanted to chime in about that statement.

Dedalus
February 27th, 2003, 11:45 pm
Even then it wouldn't make sense. Harry would still have seen him. Plus, I don't think 'see' is the important word there ... possibly 'never' and possibly 'live', too.

But either way, the theory is still completely nonsense. As I (and everybody else) have practically proven. I'm not entirely sure there's even any question, or else we can question all the things Cat listed too - my bet's on the banana ;)

Bilbo
February 27th, 2003, 11:45 pm
I'm afraid the theory does make sense. However, JKR's ambigious quote makes it hard to decide. What does she mean by 'see a live Lily or Jame.' That we will only see echoes of them or that we won't see them in their bodies. Quite personally, I think JKR is rewriting the fantasy form and that we won't see a "fairy tale end."

HandsClean
February 28th, 2003, 12:18 am
Gee...That is pretty interesting theory...But I think that is physically impossible according to Rowling's words so far.

Qeomash
February 28th, 2003, 12:35 am
:rasp:
It's a rather creative bit of observations, but I seriously doubt it. As others have reminded us all: "We will never see a living James or Lily."

Picko
February 28th, 2003, 1:18 am
I agree with Emerson the most important word in JK statement is SEE because under that theory you would never SEE James alive but he'd be alive nevertheless.

This however completely stuffs up the theory.

With everything thinking he's Lupin, James is (at least temporarily) safe from Voldemort, who is sure that he's dead. Now that he knows Sirius is innocent, Sirius may be the only one he will trust with the information.

James would have always known that Sirius was innocent unless we consider that Lupin made the change from Sirius to Peter without James knowledge which is unlikely considering the actions affected the possible livilihood of James family.

ron fan
February 28th, 2003, 1:29 am
I agree with Dedalus. There are a lot of other explanations for the "proofs" for this theory.

MadMagic
February 28th, 2003, 1:42 am
Emerson, I really enjoyed the theory and all of the detailed pieces of evidence that you give to back it up. I actually ordered that book today, so after I read it I can come up with crazy theories like this. This is a fun theory and not one that is really obvious. It is a new twist that we haven't seen before and JK is always throwing new things at us. I don't think that some of the arguments are that strong. Lupin's behavior could just be passed off as the behavior of a really close friend of James and his natural concern for Harry. If it is true I can't wait to see how JK pulls it off.

Dedalus, your arguments against it are really well done too. I generally tend to think that we will never see James or Lily in any live form, physical or mental. But I am keeping all possibilities open.

flibbertigibbet
February 28th, 2003, 1:57 am
Wow, lots of details I never noticed before, but I don't buy the theory. It seems a little too... well, fairy tale. JKR has said so many times, you can't bring back the dead. I get the feeling that she's sending the message, 'they're dead. Deal with it.' Also, we've had SO many people/animals not being what they seem. This one would be really out there.

I do however, for technicality's sake, have a few counterarguments to the counterarguments.

IF James is alive, there is a reason for it, most likely having to do with Voldemort and with the reason he wanted to kill them so badly. It wouldn't make sense for him to reveal himself when Voldie is still alive, even remotely. Also, it would, in a sense, justify switching him and Lupin in that Lupin's sacrifice would save the world.

But that's one big, fat, if, and I still don't believe it. It sort of goes against the theme of choices vs. inherited traits, saying that James and Harry are the only ones able to defeat Voldemort just because they were born that way.

lorna
February 28th, 2003, 2:53 am
I don't know but doesn't this theory have that old "Luke I am your father" feel to it.
I have to admit to some misgivings when I first heard about this book.
We all have a lot of fun going over all the aspects of the story but this particular author has taken the story apart line by line and looked for "clues" and hidden meanings. Running from Trelawney indicates good sense as much as anything. And it was certainly a funny little moment.

lorna
February 28th, 2003, 3:06 am
I don't know but doesn't this theory have that old "Luke I am your father" feel to it.
I have to admit to some misgivings when I first heard about this book.
We all have a lot of fun going over all the aspects of the story but this particular author has taken the story apart line by line and looked for "clues" and hidden meanings. Running from Trelawney indicates good sense as much as anything. And it was certainly a funny little moment.

Cat
February 28th, 2003, 3:10 am
Originally posted by lorna (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=192653#post192653))

I have to admit to some misgivings when I first heard about this book.
We all have a lot of fun going over all the aspects of the story but this particular author has taken the story apart line by line and looked for "clues" and hidden meanings.


It's like slicing the poor thing open and expecting everybody to pay for the innards.

I sure as hell wouldn't buy it, but other people can throw away their money however they want to :D

Amaryllis
February 28th, 2003, 3:13 am
I have to admit that when I first saw the subject line for this thread, I dismissed it as being completely ridiculous. When I saw that Emerson had written it, however, I curiously read it over. I don't think that I buy into this theory, but it is certainly very original and very well supported. :yup:

I think the main thing for us to do while speculating about future HP books is to keep our minds open. JKR has definitely pulled some fast ones on us, and she will no doubt continue to do so. Who knows? She could even cook up something more crazy than this. In fact, she probably will. And that's one of the things that keeps me so patiently waiting for the next books -- I can't wait to see what will happen next. :smile:

periwinkle-blue
February 28th, 2003, 3:45 am
Wow, this is an interesting thread! :bigtu: I enjoyed every posts and ideas and theories here.

However, I do get the 'Charmed' vibes where Lupin, with his shapeshifting ability, could contact the dead (somehow I pictured it like talking to the fireplace sort of thing, the way Harry and Sirius did at the Gryffindor Tower).

In this case, probably James did turned into a ghost or somewhat (you might say unfinished business, or the feeling of inadequacy (sp?) right before his death since he can't stop Voldermort from harming his family, perhaps?), but instead of roaming in Hogwarts, he 'haunts' Lupin, and possibly keeping him in company back where he resided before joining the Hogwarts Staffs?

That's a weird (and probably absurd) idea about why Lupin (who since long acquainted with James er.. ghost) showed the characteristics that bloomed out the idea of James 'possessing' Lupin's body. :rolleyes:

miri
February 28th, 2003, 4:28 am
It is a well explained idea, but it would mean that James let one of his closest friends rot in Azkaban for 12 years, whilst allowing someone who'd got his wife and best friend killed to scamper about happily. Also, we can understand Harry not meeting any of his father's friends at the Dursleys, but at Hogwarts??? I dont believe any father would let his child grow up, believing himself to be an orphan, facing death twice, and then, when they happened to meet up, acting in a way interpretable as fatherly! As a friend of the father, yes... He would have been curious about Harry, he's probably the closest thing Lupin HAS to a son... but he didnt have a real reason to seek out Harry, and if he just turned up unexpectedly, the whole anti-Dark creature lot would petition he shouldnt be allowed anywhere near children.

I also like the theory about the ancient and mysterious sock god, Cat. Apparently JKR alluded to the importance of socks somewhere... <g> think there's a thread about socks, cats, and house-elves!

Emerson
February 28th, 2003, 4:37 am
You guys need to remember that I didn't write this theory, I copied it from that book. Not word for word though, some of the things I put in my own words.

Cat: I think it just may be one of the best 18 bucks I've ever spent on Harry Potter. Even if you don't agree with that theory, which I can understand, there are TONS of very cool observations that I'm sure you've looked over (I simply could not believe how much I'd missed even after reading the books a dozen times each). Right now I'm working on a page highlighting some of the more interesting ones.

Camo
February 28th, 2003, 5:11 am
The throey that Lupin is actually James is an interesting one but i think that every point made to support it could be contradicted by the fact that Lupin and James were close friends. Lupin, knowing that Harry's parents are no longer alive, Sirius in Azkaban and Peter Pettigrew dead (as far as Lupin knows) Lupin feels as though he should act like a father figure to Harry.

LizardLaugh
February 28th, 2003, 5:31 am
Good Golly Miss Molly, this is almost as far fetched as CaptainNick's theory about the Grangers being descendants of 'Roberta' Ravenclaw and Hermione being in league with Voldie. In other words, if some random person had posted this, I'd have thought it was a joke. I was seriously thinking about getting this book, but if this is any indication of 'evidence', I dunno....

If it were true, it would make James a really despicable guy -- lessee... letting one friend die for him, letting another friend go to jail for 12 years, letting the *real* culprit get away with everything, abandoning his wife and son, allowing his son to be raised by evil and abusive jerks.... I know JKR comes up with some stuff that is way out there that you'd never guess, but this raises way more questions than it answers.

Charmed
February 28th, 2003, 11:09 am
This theory certainly made me think. But after reading further into the thread I decided that I think James is not in Lupin. Maybe Lupin is hesitant in his reactions to Harry and his treatment of Harry because of what a good friend James was and he recognises some of James aspects in Harry.
Also I have always wonder did Lupin know that Lily and James were going to go into hiding? We know that Sirius and Peter knew but not if Lupin did. Was he left out of the loop deliberatly?

BabyMars
February 28th, 2003, 12:12 pm
Originally posted by miri (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=192812#post192812))
It is a well explained idea, but it would mean that James let one of his closest friends rot in Azkaban for 12 years, whilst allowing someone who'd got his wife and best friend killed to scamper about happily. Also, we can understand Harry not meeting any of his father's friends at the Dursleys, but at Hogwarts??? I dont believe any father would let his child grow up, believing himself to be an orphan, facing death twice, and then, when they happened to meet up, acting in a way interpretable as fatherly! As a friend of the father, yes... He would have been curious about Harry, he's probably the closest thing Lupin HAS to a son... but he didnt have a real reason to seek out Harry, and if he just turned up unexpectedly, the whole anti-Dark creature lot would petition he shouldnt be allowed anywhere near children.

I also like the theory about the ancient and mysterious sock god, Cat. Apparently JKR alluded to the importance of socks somewhere... <g> think there's a thread about socks, cats, and house-elves!

no no no, you have to remember that Sirius and Peter switched being secret keepers. Nobody knew that they had, not even James and Lily. If you read the chapter where Sirius explains it all in PoA, you'll come to know that.

Cheers
:smooch:

Sirius83
February 28th, 2003, 1:17 pm
When i first saw this, i was thinking its too far fetched. However, upon reading the reasoning behind it, i have to wonder.

To answer 2 objections raised earlier in this post, i would like to suggest reasons:

1) Lupin has his own personality - Well, think about it...if you're forced to live as someone else and not let anyone wise up to you, you do have to learn to act like them. Being their friend would let you know a lot of their character, and over the years it would just come naturally.

2) James would have willingly killed the real Lupin. Not really, we're supposed to find out some pretty heavy stuff about the Potters, right? What if James had no choice? What if whatever he was responsible for, it was important enough that he was simply FORCED to switch bodies and go into hiding? Perhaps he was simply left with no choice.

Alastor
February 28th, 2003, 1:56 pm
Not entirely so BabyMars. At least not in my book.
Quote: "I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret Keeper instead of me." Unquote.

It's hard to believe the fidelius charm could work that way, switching seekret keepers without the one kept secret knowing.

Emerson
February 28th, 2003, 3:03 pm
Like most of you, I agree that this theory is very shaky, but I'm going to argue a couple of these points just for the sake of arguing.

1) Wouldn't James be a horrible man to kill one of his best friends for selfish purposes? Even if Lupin offered, James would surely have never agreed?

It's like Sirius83 said:

James would not have willingly killed the real Lupin. What if James had no choice? What if whatever he was responsible for, it was important enough that he was simply FORCED to switch bodies and go into hiding? Perhaps he was simply left with no choice.

Plus, he could not have known that he was going to be betrayed. THe Lupin switch would have been just an extra precaution.

6) When James' memory came out of the wand, surely, even if it looked like James it wouldn't act like him, if it were actually Lupin?

He only said a couple sentences, I don't imagine it would be pretty difficicult to hide ones personality when that's all you say.

7) James must know Lupin's history and identity pretty well to fool everyone, and speak about himself and his history in such detail. He would have even fooled Sirius.

But remember, Black was in Azkaban for all those years and they didn't meet again until the end of Harry's third year, and they only met briefly. It would be possible for Sirius not to remember Lupin's personality that well considering all the years he was in Azkaban, especially if James was mirroring it.

8) What would be the point? Why can't Lupin just exist and James be dead? So Harry can have a father, and Sirius loses out? So Lupin can't fight for his own rights? So a lot of the things said in the books are contradicted?

That I don't know, and I have to agree with you there. :)


"'I certainly don't want Harry dead...' An odd shiver passed over his face." (Chapter 17)
That's not just a teacher or friend saying that. JKR must have added that second bit for a reason.
The thing that makes it suspicious is that JKR rarely does things like that without a reason.

Lupin enters the room in "a shower of red sparks."
You'll notice one thing consistent throughout the series: There's no such thing as a coincidence. Almost every time there has been a coincidence in the series, JKR has explained later why it wasn't a coincidence.

-Lupin, who was "both shaken and pleased," comes over to congratulate Harry on his spectacular Patronus. (Chapter 13)
Lupin must have been "shaken" from seeing that Harry's Patronus is James's own Patronus.
But why would he be shaken? Pleased, yes. Shaken? I can't imagine why...



And a very major point to add ... I like Professor Lupin. I think me and most other people would rather he be himself, than be a "happy ever after" James. That theory would reduce the point of two of the most incredible characters ... Lupin and Sirius. If Harry got his dad back, what would that make of Sirius? What would it make of James, if he sacrificed his own friend to help himself? What would that do to the wonderful character of Lupin, to know that he doesn't exist? It's a good job the theory doesn't make any sense!

I agree with you there too, it wouldn't make sense to twist the plot like that. And that's the main reason I'm still skeptical about this theory.

Dedalus
February 28th, 2003, 4:15 pm
Emerson, I think he was shaken (and pleased - the pleased has to go in there too), because it was a tense match, and Harry could have lost his head and fallen off again. But he didn't - which is why he was pleased (and also, since he's a teacher, because Harry had clearly learnt a lot). The match could have gone different ways, which is why I guess he could look both shaken and pleased at the same time - a sort of after effect of anxiousness.

The odd shiver passing over his face was because of the next line though- "But I won't deny that I'm a werewolf".

And the colour red ... well, colour in spells isn't specific to the one person. The Avada Kedavra curse is always green, the disarming spell is red ... I guess whatever spell Lupin blasted the door open with just happens to be red. A lot of things are coincidence (and I don't think that Harry's first wand spell being red and gold sparks is a coincidence - but I think that's just because of what else those colours are for) even if a lot aren't. But this isn't even really a coincidence - it's just a minor similarity.

And as for the memory coming out of the wand ... it's only a few lines, but would they have been said by James, if it weren't him? As it's a memory and not necessarily them dead, Lupin probably would show as Lupin. That's his memory. And Lily wouldn't have said "your father's coming", since you can only assume that the dead know more about what's going on than we do.

Animagi Girl
February 28th, 2003, 4:18 pm
I don't believe this theory is correct, even though it'd be kind of cool if it was.

But in the interview with JKR did she say we would never see an alive Lily and James or did she say that we would never see an alive Lily or James? Because if she said and, wouldn't it be suggesting that we'd never see both of them together, maybe?? But if she said, or it would suggest that we'd never see either of them. Can someone tell me where the interview is. I read it once, but I didn't memorize it.

To contradict myself...
If James was going to switch bodies, why wouldn't Lily switch bodies, too:??:

miri
February 28th, 2003, 4:28 pm
Isnt it obvious? James is Lupin, Lilly is crookshanks, Lupin is The Whomping Willow (James couldnt let his friend die after all), Sirius is DD and...

<g> Nothing's as it seems!

sorry, i shouldnt tease!

I just really dont see why this would happen. It would also mean that the majority of PoA would be a Farce. I'd find it easier to accept Sirius was James, I think. He gets out of Azkaban, finds Harry, starts following him to make sure he's ok, finds out where Peter is, and tries to kill him. I dont know why they'd have switched in the first place but... also when he goes after Peter the first time - it could be the action of a betrayed friend, furious with himself for trusting Peter; or it could be the act of a friend, husband and father, but if that was the case, i dont think he;d have let Hagrid take Harry. He'd have gone to see DD and explained it all to him, PROVED he was James... And in CoS, when he comes out of hiding to see Harry, etc etc etc...

dantares
February 28th, 2003, 4:52 pm
I think it's impossible. JKR would not shock us like that.

Alastor
February 28th, 2003, 5:48 pm
I agree with miri and dantares.
We have in 4 books learnt to know JKR as a clever lass with both feet firmly on the ground. Why should she now throw everything around and create a complete mess of the whole story?

Yadiami
February 28th, 2003, 7:52 pm
I don't really like this theory but I have a point to support it:
In GoF, in the first edition, James gosth come out of the wand before Lily's one. He barely says nothing, just: "Your mother's coming..." he said quietly. "She wants to see you... it will be all right ... hold on ..." and then Lily appears and tells Harry come back to Hogwarts with the Portkey.

I always thought that JKR just wanted to show Lily's more that James and got confused, but what if she meant to hint that it was not James, but Lupin or someone else?
James barely says nothing to Harry, anybody could have said that. And he says "your mother".

This Lupin's theory has some good points.

Cat
February 28th, 2003, 8:20 pm
Originally posted by Yadiami (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=193882#post193882))
I don't really like this theory but I have a point to support it:
In GoF, in the first edition, James gosth come out of the wand before Lily's one. He barely says nothing, just: "Your mother's coming..." he said quietly. "She wants to see you... it will be all right ... hold on ..." and then Lily appears and tells Harry come back to Hogwarts with the Portkey.

I always thought that JKR just wanted to show Lily's more that James and got confused, but what if she meant to hint that it was not James, but Lupin or someone else?
James barely says nothing to Harry, anybody could have said that. And he says "your mother".

This Lupin's theory has some good points.


That's actually a mistake that was changed. James shouldn't have emerged before Lily. In the corrected editions, Lily says exactly the same things in reverse ('Your father'). James tells Harry to hold on to the connection and all that.
And what's wrong with 'Your mother'? He's hardly going to call her Lily to Harry.

miri
February 28th, 2003, 8:34 pm
Yadiami, that thing about who came out first has been discussed here, and apparently has been corrected in later issues - it was simply a mistake.

I hadnt really given much thought to what the apparitions said... but how much else could he have said? He didnt want to distract Harry, and he could have referred to her in other ways but he's seeing his near-grown son after 13 years; "Mummy" really isnt appropriate. "My wife" indicates she's not Harry's mum... etc etc etc

Sirius83
February 28th, 2003, 9:05 pm
Something else - why WAS Lupin on the Hogwarts Express? Since when did teachers take the train to school? Maybe Lupin...or rather James, wanted to see his son again asap...

miri
February 28th, 2003, 9:59 pm
I think most teachers go back to the school before the pupils do, but maybe Lupin couldnt get there before?

Maybe it had taken a month or 2 to find him and convince him his going to teach would be safe, that Snape knew how to make the potion etc? Also, he could have felt that DD wanted him at Hogwarts to keep an eye on him coz Sirius had escaped... I think he's quite proud - either the seen insinuation that he wouldnt be able to handle Black, or that he'd side with him; would have stung.

I dont think it's a big deal. Also, Hagrid tookthe train with them in Harry's first year - i got the impression at least one teacher always did to separate the 1st years and take them to the lake?

Yadiami
February 28th, 2003, 10:43 pm
Sorry, I didn't express myself properly, I know it was a mistake, but she wrote it in first place, I mean, maybe she wanted to emphasize Lily, to make her more important towards Harry. Later, of course, she had to change it.

About Lupin in the train: It's really weird, he could have Apparated in Hogsmeade.
If DD wanted him to keep an eye over Harry he could have stayed awake, just a little.
And I don't think teachers go in the Train, Hagrid wasn't there in Harry's first year, he was in Hogsmead to take 1st years to the lake.

I can't believe I'm seeing this Lupin's theory more consistent each moment.

Cat
March 1st, 2003, 2:48 am
Originally posted by Yadiami (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=194192#post194192))
Sorry, I didn't express myself properly, I know it was a mistake, but she wrote it in first place, I mean, maybe she wanted to emphasize Lily, to make her more important towards Harry. Later, of course, she had to change it.



Firstly, I don't understand your reasoning. Why does the fact that the memory of James didn't say much in the mistake editions mean that he's secretly Lupin?

Secondly, if his small role was for a reason, JKR would have changed the dialogue, she wouldn't have simply reversed it.

About the train: also take a note that he was tired and sleeping throughout the journey. Can you sleep while Apparating? No. Can you sleep while using the Floo network to Hogsmeade? No. It must have been a full moon the night before and he wanted to get rested.

Outside the plot, he was in the train to introduce the Patronus (though Harry doesn't see it) and to introduce Lupin in an interesting way.

There are perfectly valid answers to all these questions, most of them answered in POA. But people always seem to prefer the daft answers.

Sirius83
March 1st, 2003, 2:52 am
Well heres another daft answer.

Why was Lupin's name peeling on his case? If he was only just hired as a professor, how did the lettering age so much? Perhaps It was done like that on purpose to go with the worn look of his character. Just a thought - because the condition of the letters "Professor Lupin" has been controversial for a while if the guy was teaching for the first time.

Cat
March 1st, 2003, 2:55 am
Originally posted by Sirius83 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=194459#post194459))
Perhaps It was done like that on purpose to go with the worn look of his character.


I think you got a bingo. It's also cheap paint (or whatever) on a cheap case. It shows he's poor.

Ezra Pippen
March 1st, 2003, 5:24 am
This theory is chuckle-worthy. The dead are dead, they are not going to come back tolife to make everything all sugar syrupy happy. I just can't see JKR doing it, even w/o going through the practical end of the theory, simply because the main villian is someone who tries to defy mortality and humanity. I think she was very clear about people not coming back to life. Life is precious, human beings are mortal and fairly easy to kill, and decisions and risks are taken (or not)by characters who know their own mortality.

Puffskein
March 1st, 2003, 10:32 pm
I suppose the theory isn't completely impossible, but I'm with Dedalus - all the "evidence" has other explanations, and anyway what would be the point? The theory forgets that Sirius thought Lupin was Voldemort's spy - I imagine he persuaded Lily and James to the same opinion, hence they (apparently) didn't consider Lupin as Secret Keeper. Plus, I don't see why they would have thought the Fidelius Charm inadequate protection, and gone to all the trouble of a bodyswap as well.

It's pretty obvious what Lupin REALLY is - the ancient and mysterious Chocolate God!

As for Lupin on the train...like Cat, I assume he transformed the previous night, hence the unusually sound sleep. If the other teachers arrive a day or two before term starts, there probably wasn't enough time to organise the potion.

hpangel102
March 2nd, 2003, 1:36 am
I dont know if this was mentioned before, but if Lupin were James, and Lupin would be dead, how come James would still turn into a werewolf if he were in Lupins body? This is probably going to be as confusing as the whole time turner thing.

Fuchsia
March 2nd, 2003, 2:03 am
All hail the ancient and mysterious Chocolate God!

I don't think Rowling would have come up with this idea let alone use it.

Animagi Girl
March 2nd, 2003, 3:17 am
Originally posted by hpangel102 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=195974#post195974))
I dont know if this was mentioned before, but if Lupin were James, and Lupin would be dead, how come James would still turn into a werewolf if he were in Lupins body? This is probably going to be as confusing as the whole time turner thing.


I think, that it'd be kind of like if you were a werewolf and you were kissed by a dementor. You'd still turn into a werewolf at each full moon, even without your soul. I think the bite just effects the body and not the soul inside it. It doesn't matter if they change bodies, because Lupin's body received the bite. Am I making any sense?? I think I confused myself:??:

go_anna40
March 2nd, 2003, 4:29 am
I guess it can be true. But I guess I wouldn't want it to happen. It would spoil it. James is dead, I hate it when people just pop up after 10 years going "Hello son! I'm back from the dead!"
It just doesn't work for me. It happens way to often.

Ava
March 2nd, 2003, 5:02 am
I totally agree with you Anna. It's not that I wouldn't want Harry to be happy if his dad was alive and all, but it doesn't seem right to me. Not only would it be confusing as the whole time-turner thing, it would also raise a lot of questions.

lorna
March 2nd, 2003, 5:13 am
This was pointed out on another website but wouldn't Lupin show up on the Marauders map as James Potter if that's who he was.
That map gets in the way of a lot of good theories.

Tigerlily
March 2nd, 2003, 6:18 am
I personally like Lupin too much and would be extremely disappointed to find out he was James all this time...Besides I don't think the theory stands up very well anyway so I don't believe it. You guys have all said pretty much everything I was thinking that refutes it.

Cat
March 2nd, 2003, 5:17 pm
Originally posted by Puffskein (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=195804#post195804))

It's pretty obvious what Lupin REALLY is - the ancient and mysterious Chocolate God!



No, that's the milky bar kid.

Lupin could be the middle aged and quietly intriguing Chocolate God...?

winky
March 2nd, 2003, 9:01 pm
No, no, no to you BabyMars. They did know. Sirius had to talk Lily and Jamed into it. You must have misunderstood. Maybe you should go read that part again.

sashapasta
March 3rd, 2003, 1:51 am
I really like that theory, but there is one BIG problem. If James didn't even trust Lupin to tell him about switching the Secret Keeper. Why would he trust him far enough to switch bodies with him? No one knew who was acting as the spy and passing information to Voldemorte.

And as for the thought, "how could James kill his own friend" , James didn't know that Voldemorte was going to his house that night, if the Secret Keeping worked. So he would not have sold out his friend.
So I really dont know what is right...

Siriusly Remus
March 3rd, 2003, 3:19 am
Erm, here we go. Just got the book.

What if...

James made Sirius, his best friend, the secret keeper. Sirius told James that he did not trust Remus, but James still did, so James convinced Remus to "switch" with him without telling Sirius so Sirius wouldn't throw a fit or get angry. After James and Remus "made the switch", Sirius then convinced Remus (as James) to switch secret keepers to Peter at the last minute. Since Remus did not trust Sirius (maybe going back to the "Whomping Willow Incident" with Snape), he DID trust Peter, so he agreed, without telling James (which meant James, in the first place, thought that Peter might have been the traitor).

So James, in Remus' body, thought that Sirius was the one who had betrayed him and his family all along after Lily and "Remus" died. THAT'S why he didn't come forth. He knew that he couldn't go and try to gain custody of Harry because of Remus' werewolf status. So he did...whatever, for the 12 years of Sirius' imprisonment, because Voldemort's supporters weren't going to go looking for some random werewolf.

Of course, to poke holes in THAT...

Why wouldn't James, in Remus' body, have gone to Dumbledore? Everyone trusts Dumbledore, and DD would have believed him, I'm sure.



Uh, in conclusion, there is the possibility that this theory is true. But, I have to agree with the people who say "no way". James, no matter what the reason, would not have willingly let one of his friends give up his life for himself. He also wouldn't have taken himself out of the hostile situation but not have done anything to protect his wife and son.
Like Harry, he was a Gryffindor, and he would have stood and fought instead of running and hiding, right?

Now, the big mystery is...what the hell was Remus' role in this whole thing? Did James, like Sirius, think that Remus was the traitor? Why did Sirius think that? Did Peter have a role in convincing them that their werewolf friend, being a Dark Creature, would have surely had the tendencies to be the traitor? We don't really know what happened that night, yet. All theories, still, are open in my eyes.

Though, as someone else said, I also hate it when we think one thing, and then, tada!, 12 years later, James really is alive! Imagine that!! All of the "evidence" given for this theory in the book can be explained in another way (like the "Remus's reactions and feelings towards Harry in a fatherly way do not mean that Remus IS Harry's father aka. James").

The Ultimate Unofficial Guide book is a good read, though. I have not gone all the way through it, yet, but it explains some very interesting points and catches some things that I did not. I wouldn't say it's a "must have", but it really is something to tide me over until the DVD release...and THAT will tide me over, of course, to the book release.

MagpieOnaga
March 3rd, 2003, 5:09 am
I'm very skeptical about that theory, Emerson; it's a long shot. Creative idea, though. :)

I think that almost all of the arguments made in support of the theory can be explained by the fact that James and Lupin were very close friends. However, the author did bring up an interesting point:

Trelawney said that Lupin "positively fled" when she offered to crystal gaze for him. (Chapter 11)
We thought that Lupin fled because he didn't want anyone to find out that he was a werewolf, but later in the story Dumbledore tells Harry that all of the staff had already been told that. He's afraid of something else being exposed -- why else would he run?

I wonder whether that was just a mistake? Maybe Trelawney wasn't "let in" on the fact that Lupin was a werewolf (though I doubt it).

(by the way, I didn't read through this whole thread, so I might have just restated what someone already said. If so, I apologize.)

Dedalus
March 3rd, 2003, 10:45 am
Trelawney didn't know he was a werewolf, though. She seemed completely oblivious to it at the Christmas dinner, remember? She, like the students, seemed to believe that Lupin was ill. And we know that not all the staff knew in any case ... Hagrid didn't, did he? I guess only those of whom the matter may concern were informed, perhaps even from when Lupin was at school himself. Trelawney may perhaps be a newer teacher, or Lupin may not have been in her class and so she never needed to know.

Is there any possibility it might have just been a joke? It may not even be that he avoided her because he didn't want to be found for being a werewolf. I mean ... the prospect of spending extra time with Trelawney, especially if she'd been talking to him already and no doubt had been telling him of her predictions of him ("I have seen that poor Professor Lupin will not be with us for very long") is enough to make any grown man flee in terror.

Sinistra
March 3rd, 2003, 3:33 pm
This whole Lupin is James theory and thread makes my head hurt!

After reading it all, I still think Lupin is Lupin and James is dead. Mostly because I hope JKR would not fool us all like that. One theme of the books is that life sucks sometimes, and bad things do happen. AND that magic cannot solve all your problems, or even a few of them. Lupin and James were close friends. It's natural for him to care about Harry. Especially as Harry resembles James so closely.

As to Trelawney, she could have been playing along for the sake of the students about Lupin at Christmas. Alternatively, she was not told because she cannot keep anything secret or confidential. Predicting Harry's death and spreading it all around the school is unethical in the extreme. She is not up to the level of being trusted with secrets. Also, she rarely leaves her tower, so she may have missed that meeting where they discussed Lupin.

There may be more to Lupin than we know, but I, for one, don't think he is really James. I still want that book, it sounds cool.

Cat
March 3rd, 2003, 5:06 pm
Originally posted by Sinistra (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=198393#post198393))
Also, she rarely leaves her tower, so she may have missed that meeting where they discussed Lupin.


If I was Dumbledore, I wouldn't have any such meeting! The only people who need to know are the ones who can help him or have any kind of dealings with him and Trelawney doesn't figure. I mean, I wouldn't keep it secret but it would still be Lupin's own business.

Alastor
March 3rd, 2003, 7:10 pm
I agree with Cat. It doesn't seem likely that Dd would ask other teachers opinion abt hiring new teachers.
Snape had to know of course. To make the potion. Those who were teachers when lupin was a student propably knew. And these are at least McGonagall and Hagrid.

LizPsky
March 4th, 2003, 1:09 am
Okay, as much as I would *LOVE* for this to be true... I highly doubt it will happen... There is only the amount of evidence we have from PoA, and well, it's not as much as we'd need to know for sure... I love Lupin, he's my favorite Character, but I highly doubt JKR would do something like that... She's already done it, and she rarely repeats the same idea, UNLESS it's really important, so maybe Harry's *DADA* *TEACHER*, in his first year, had someone living inside someone else's body, why not now?
I'm SO BAD at proving my point, cuz I just find another way to beat it down! ARGH! Anyway, I just noticed another theme with the DADA teachers... None of them are what they seem, Quirrel= Voldemort living off of him, Lockhart= Fraud, Lupin= Werewolf, Moody=Crouch Jr... Mrs. Figg= Harry didn't know she was a witch... hmmmmm....

Kristus_Vesanus
March 4th, 2003, 4:18 am
Lupin's Secret Identity-I'm sorry, but I have to throw it out the window for two reasons. If they really did perform a switching spell, then James would have known that they switched the secret keeper to Peter. Unless of course that Lupin made that decision after they switched bodies. However, why would he switch the secret-keeper to Peter if the real James could be used? I mean, he wanted to protect his wife and son more than anything which is why he agreed to the Fidelius charm in the first place. As for the first point, if James and Sirius were best friends, then he would do whatever he could to clear Sirius' name. He wouldn't sit around, pretending to hate Sirius for betraying him...please email back on what you think.

Bilbo
March 4th, 2003, 6:41 pm
I think that James as Lupin would want to clear Black. Therefore, that would be a BIG plot hole if this theory is true. Moreover, Lupin could have fled from Trelawney because he shared McGonagall's opinion. Finally, before we are too hard on the theory, remember, we've all had far fetched ideas before.

FreckledApples
March 4th, 2003, 9:22 pm
Ok listen to this: Lupin believed Sirius was indeed the trader, because James and Lily never told anyone but Petter and Sirius. If James was in Lupins body then he would have known Sirius is NOT the trader, but Peter is. Even if that was the only fact supporting James not being Lupin, it would still prove that he is not Lupin. There. That's it. It's a fact, and you can't change facts.

Animagi Girl
March 4th, 2003, 9:25 pm
I was just thinking about that Freckled Apples. Great point.

Puffskein
March 8th, 2003, 8:11 pm
Originally posted by Cat (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=198506#post198506))
The only people who need to know are the ones who can help him or have any kind of dealings with him and Trelawney doesn't figure. I mean, I wouldn't keep it secret but it would still be Lupin's own business.


He seemed to imply that all the staff knew. He also said "Dumbledore had to work very hard to convince certain teachers that I'm trustworthy." He was obviously referring to Snape, but I can't help noticing his use of the plural. I wonder who else didn't trust Lupin, and if this might be important in future. Plus, the staff who taught him won't necessarily like him, he was a mischievous Marauder and all!

Fuchsia
March 8th, 2003, 9:08 pm
Snape may have just leaned the other teachers in one direction but when they heard Dumbledore trusted him they leaned the other way.
Both men can be very persuasive.

Bilbo
March 8th, 2003, 10:37 pm
I'm not sure I see persuasiveness in Snape. Moreover, so few teachers seem to like him.

Fuchsia
March 8th, 2003, 10:44 pm
You can persuade with nastiness. "Oh I give up arguing you're right!"
Snape doesn't give up. Someone has to.

Bilbo
March 9th, 2003, 2:55 am
Good point Fuchsia. I never thought of it that way.

Fuchsia
March 9th, 2003, 6:20 am
I am so persuasive. Like Snape.

Bilbo
March 9th, 2003, 3:38 pm
The bottom line: James as Lupin would want to clear Black. Therefore, that would be a BIG plot hole if this theory is true.

cerdinalz
March 22nd, 2003, 3:59 am
I don't think James is in Lupin's body. For example, say you and I traded places. We looked just like each other. But wouldn't we still have the same health? Switching spells are simple, so the "Lupin" wouldn't have turned into a werewolf, because if they had changed places, there wouldn't be a werewolf.

hermiowninny
March 28th, 2003, 4:24 am
If the Switching Spell had occurred in advance of Pettigrew and Voldemort coming to the Potters, long after Lupin had departed with James' soul inside, then it is quite possible that Lupin/James had no clue what happened and really believed that Sirius has betrayed them.

I bought the book and have read it cover to cover, and am re-reading the HP books again and again, with much greater understanding of the many mysteries that JKR has written into the books. This book does not give away any secrets at all, but it sure helps you find out just how important all the details are. It has enriched my experience of the HP books immeasurably.

Potter80
March 28th, 2003, 4:35 am
I don't think it's very likely that James Potter could be in Lupins body. If he were I think he would be keeping more in touch with Harry.

delemtri
March 28th, 2003, 4:35 am
James's wand WAS good for Transfiguration (which is what a Switching Spell is; McGonagall was teaching them in GoF). But I think the point that James himself could be used as the Secret-Keeper then pretty much refutes this theory.

DRaGoNoFiLlFaItH
March 28th, 2003, 4:41 am
I read that on mugglenet a while ago and I also HIGHLY doubt that they did that switching spell thing. Like Bilbo said, there would be a hole in the story if that happend. Plus Lupin has his own personality I think. I still want that book that they said the theory was from though

whizbang121
October 11th, 2003, 10:09 pm
This is confusing, but interesting. Snape is Regulus, Peter is Sirius, James is Lupin. Who's Crookshanks?I'm making charts like those stupid logic puzzles:

"If the man with the red car lives next to to woman in the yellow house, what is the mailman's favorite movie?"

Hmmmmm..........

o_O
October 12th, 2003, 12:01 am
I doubt it ALOT He died at the hands of voldemort.. even ask him .

whizbang121
October 13th, 2003, 7:28 am
I don't know. I think I like it. His reactions when he was teaching Harry how to do the Patronus: he went pale when Harry said he heard Lily. Then when Harry mentioned he heard his father, Lupin asked in a strange voice, "You heard James?"
How he watches Sirius all through OotP.
I think it's possible. :agree:

tjrih
October 14th, 2003, 5:01 am
I think that one scene in PoA can shoot apart this whole 'James is Lupin' theory. In the Shrieking Shack, when Harry stops Lupin & Sirius from killing Pettigrew 'together', they tell Harry that it is HIS decision because of what Pettigrew did to him & his family. I think that if James were really Lupin, he would have behaved much differently throughout this entire scene. If someone had betrayed me and my wife and one of my best friends (and IF he had switched for whatever reason-think of the survivor guilt he'd feel) had died, I think that Lupin/James would have been beside himself with rage after learning the truth.

Tirwen Lupin
October 15th, 2003, 8:54 pm
JKR mentions in several interviews that Lupin is her favorite character, and that Lupin made book 3 so important to write.
Well, I'd say JKR can have a favorite character if she wants. Introducing her favorite character would certainly make a book important to write. Besides, Lupin can become very important later on, without actually being James.
Unlike everyone else, Lupin never stared at Harry's scar, or mentioned his eyes or resemblance to his father. Lupin addresses Harry by name as if he was already very familiar with him. (Chapter 5)
Harry was the son of his best friend. It's logical that Lupin would have some innate unerstanding of Harry's feelings. Lupin did see Harry's semblance to his parents, and probably felt that he could relate to Harry, without going through the whole "Harry Potter, wow" process. I just don't think that would be in his personality.
"'I certainly don't want Harry dead...' An odd shiver passed over his face." (Chapter 17)
That's not just a teacher or friend saying that. JKR must have added that second bit for a reason.
It's understandable that he'd shiver. James, his best friend, was dead. The last thing he'd want would be to experience that all over again with the son of that friend being dead.
Lupin enters the room in "a shower of red sparks." (Chapter 17)
Throughout the series Harry is indundated with clues that he might be a heir of Gryffindor, and if he is, that probably means James was before him, which would explain the red sparks. Also, a shower of red and gold sparks came out of Harry's wand when he first tried it.
Most spells have colors and sparks. You can cast one of them without being the heir of Gryffindor.
Lupin, who was "both shaken and pleased," comes over to congratulate Harry on his spectacular Patronus. (Chapter 13)
Lupin must have been "shaken" from seeing that Harry's Patronus is James's own Patronus.
Sure he was shaken. Harry had done a very good job on the spell. Lupin was impressed. Plus, as was said, it was the from of James's animagus. That would certainly startle Lupin.
Lupin has "no hesitation" about what Harry's father would think. (Chapter18) How can he be so sure about what Harry's father would think?
He knew Harry's father very well. When you get to know someone like that, you can sometimes make a darn close guess at what they'd think.

When Harry tells Lupin he is hearing his mum's voice louder, Lupin looks "paler than usual." Harry then tells Lupin how he hears his his dad's voice for the first time trying to old off Voldemort so his mom could escape. "'You heard James?' said Lupin in a strange voice." (Chapter 12)
Why would Lupin react oddly to Harry hearing James? Because of the strange circumstances he realized it wasn't James saying it, it was Lupin.
I'd sure react oddly if I knew a kid could hear my best friend dying.
Trelawney said that Lupin "positively fled" when she offered to crystal gaze for him. (Chapter 11)
We thought that Lupin fled because he didn't want anyone to find out that he was a werewolf, but later in the story Dumbledore tells Harry that all of the staff had already been told that. He's afraid of something else being exposed -- why else would he run?
Trelawney, it seems, is the oddball of the staff. She rarely left her tower, and could very well have missed Dumbledore telling the staff. Or she might just have made that up, being her usual self. Besides, why would Lupin want to spend more time than necessary around her?
Upon hearing that Harry hears his mom being murdered by Voldemort whenever a dementor is near him, Lupin made "a sudden motion with his arm, as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but then thought better of it." (Chapter 10)
For his own safety, he can't afford to let his emotions get the better of him, so he is trying to restrain himself. His emotions will make him weak, and he might let the truth slip. He wants to touch his son so badly but he (wisely) restrains himself.
OK, that's weird. But really, he might want to grab Harry's shoulder because he's just feeling such immense grief.
Lupin says: "Now that we could all transform."
This is arguable, but it would have made more sense for him to say "Now that they could all transform." So why didn't he?
Because it was "we", in a sense. All four could transform, even though Lupin did it quite differently from the others. There wouldn't be a point if Lupin couldn't transform.
Several times, Harry wonders whether Lupin may be able to read his mind.
If he's his father, of course they are going to have a special bond.
You can have a easliy special bond with someone without being related. Again, I think Lupin simply understands Harry better than a lot of people.
JK Rowling said in a chat that we would never see a live Lily or James Potter. However, if James is in Lupin's body, then we wouldn't be seeing James Potter. We would just know that it's him.
That's quite a stretch, I think. I'd rather consider JKR's words as straighforward.
Not sure if this is significant, but Lupin's first name is Remus -- the legendary wolf-child who co-founded Rome with his brother Romulus. Romulus later killed Remus.
I think that would be copying a bit too much out of mythology.

And as has been said, there's a really huge hole in the theory: If Lupin and James had switched, and the Lupin we know is indeed James, then why didn't he try to clear Sirius and prove that Peter was the traitor? I can't imagine him not trying.

Besides, I just don't want it to be true! It's a very creative theory, but I think Lupin is just better as Lupin. :)

jordmundt6
October 17th, 2003, 7:55 pm
Very, very good. I don't really think it's odd that Lupin made to grab Harry's shoulder, he was trying to comfort his best friend's son. It was an impulse. He held it in check.

The self-loathing in his critiques of his own actions is odd in that he seems to be just as harsh on James as Harry is and applies the same standard to himself and to James, but not to Sirius. But, he's had a very hard life with three days of every month involved in a horrible transformation. Plus, he's been isolated from both the wizarding and Muggle communities. The one thing that is arguable is "Now we could all transform." I don't think Lupin would consider his monthly transformations an "ability." Either he misspoke, or this is some solid evidence (the only solid evidence we have so far) that James COULD be sharing Remus body nonintrusively. The "odd shiver" came from admitting that he was a werewolf, it's a very painful, awful secret. Other than that--Excellent analysis.

Edit: Tirih--that's the strongest evidence we have that Lupin is Lupin only. James-in-Lupin would have known the whole story and not been confused about it. In fact, if he'd seen Scabbers, he would have apprehended him in a snap. But I think you're wrong, I think mature James would behave very much as Lupin did except that he would not have killed Peter. He had changed in the handful of years from his schooldays to his death. He would not have resolved to kill Peter.

[Pretty]_[Unicorn]
October 17th, 2003, 10:51 pm
I think that James is pulling a LV. When LV was inside Quirrel's head he wasn't alive, alive, he was just there. It says in the books that he was somehting worse than death so there is no way he was alive, just a ghost. Alive can be looked at all angles and as previously said before SEE is the key word. We don't see James in Lupin, we never will because James' body is gone.

jordmundt6
October 17th, 2003, 11:05 pm
One problem with that. James isn't afraid of dying. He didn't take steps to become immortal and if he found himself in a parasitic situation I very much doubt that he would allow Lupin to sacrifice his life to preserve himself, even if it does mean a chance to keep an eye on his son. Remember LV's possession of Prof. Q was tremendously draining and Q had to drink unicorn blood regularly to strenghten his master and, after awhile to keep himself alive. James wouldn't curse himself and his friend just to stay in the mortal world. Furthermore, even if James did pursue this plan, there's the added inconvenience of GETTING unicorn blood. Remember, even as a werewolf, Lupin wouldn't be fast enough to catch one.

Tirwen Lupin
October 18th, 2003, 2:17 am
Other than that--Excellent analysis.
Were you talking to me? :lol: Thanks, but all I was really doing was taking it apart and thinking of every counter to their points that I could think of. Didn't even have the book with me! :p
Anyway, I agree with you on the "odd shiver" part. It was right before he said that he was a werewolf--I can imagine the kind of pain he was feeling when he admitted that. Still, I think the thought of Harry dying contributed to it as well.
I also agree about the "now we could all transform" part--I tend to think it was something of a misspeech. But not quite; it was probably just easier to say it that way. He's already explained to the kids about him being a werewolf and his friends being animagi, so saying "We could all transform" was easier than repeating himself with "They could all transform into animals when I transformed into a monster".
Though that could be the single piece of evidence that's really in favor of the theory, I still think it's highly arguable.

Spirit
October 18th, 2003, 4:57 am
It is highly arguable. I can easily see it going either way. If you read The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter (where the theory came from), you'll know what I mean.
J.K. Rowling has been dropping hints about Switching Spells since book 1, yet why would James and Lupin switch places anyway?
That's how this goes. There's a mystery pointing to it, and then you run into a problem. :rolleyes:

alixs
October 23rd, 2003, 10:01 pm
What about when they were in the Shrieking Shack? Harry won't let Lupin and Black kill Pettigrew because he didn't think his dad would want them to become killers. Wouldn't Lupin have tried to sway Harry if he really were James Potter as he obviously did want to kill Pettigrew?

sindatur
October 23rd, 2003, 10:15 pm
JKR said we would never see a live Lily or James in the series. This leads me to completely discount this theory. Perhaps JKR's quote was we will never see a live Lily and James, which leaves her a loophole, if we only see one of them, but, the shades of Lily and James in GoF from Priori Incantatem just seemed too much like husband and wife, and Lily did refer to James as "your father". I suppose that too could have a loophole, if Lupin was the Shade of James, and Lupin fathered HArry. I can't see that though, since Harry is the spitting image of James.

Hufflepuffy
October 24th, 2003, 5:13 am
It is highly arguable. I can easily see it going either way. If you read The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter (where the theory came from), you'll know what I mean.
J.K. Rowling has been dropping hints about Switching Spells since book 1, yet why would James and Lupin switch places anyway?
That's how this goes. There's a mystery pointing to it, and then you run into a problem. :rolleyes:

If Switching Spells hadn't been mentioned as often, then I don't know how much of this theory I would believe. But since JKR has made reference to them several times, I can't help but think that she has done it without reason. I think that if this were true, it would be a pretty awesome plot twist. But I rather like Lupin, soo... guess we'll see.

I think the biggest question to this theory is "why?". The most I can figure is only for some extra added measure of safety. But why would James need extra protection when it was Harry Voldemort was after in the first place?

And as for JKR saying we'd never see a live Lily or James, we're not exactly "seeing" James, if he is inside Lupin, are we?

lupinlover
October 24th, 2003, 8:49 pm
Hey!

This BY FAR is my favorite HP Theory!!!! Many thanks to Emerson for starting it!! I have a couple things to support it (not sure if they've already been posted)

Of course in PoA, the famous line-- "You heard James?" Lupin asked in a strange voice.
Could he have said this because James as Lupin knew that Lupin died that night? Oh, and though I usually don't formulate my theories from the movies, notice they never show James, only Lily. Why would they leave him-- don't you think it would have more dramatic appeal to leave him in, if that's the way it really happened?

In SS, when Harry gets the Invisibility Cloak and the note says "Your father left this in my possession before he died." WHY would James be giving away his possessions, if he was under the impression that the Fidelius Charm was working and that Pettigrew was still loyal? Was it a cover for his own death?

Jill
October 24th, 2003, 8:59 pm
I don't think Lily or James are trapped in anyones body because at the moment there traped in Voldermorts wand, or at least there spirits are. The Yew tree was reported to trap spirits and Voldermorts wand is made from Yew. Thats why I think there definetly dead.

sindatur
October 24th, 2003, 9:20 pm
I still have a very difficult time with this. For James to have done this, just seems so cowardly to me. I don't believe James would take extra precautions for himself, but not for Lily and Harry. If this theory turned out to be true, I would need a very good explanation from JKR why James would save his own skin like that, and leave Lily and Harry to be killed.

James wasn't shown being killed in the movie, because Harry wasn't in the room with him, so being as it's from his perspective, there is no perspective to show.

Jill, I don't believe those were/are James and Lily's actual immortal souls in Voldemort's wand, I believe they are just a shade of their existence. Priori Incatatem shows the spells that the wand did last. Priori=Prior Incantatem=Incantations(?)

Dedalus
October 24th, 2003, 9:46 pm
I still think that this is one of the silliest theories I've heard. I doubt it would have gotten so much attention if it hadn't been down in a book. Because it just has so many gaping holes and flaws in it, and the so-called evidence is just so vague and seems to have just been hammered into the theory to make it fit, but it doesn't at all!

1) Lupin showing that he cares for Harry does NOT mean he is his father. You can care for people without being related. When Harry is down or hurt is he supposed to just give a cavemanly grunt or just sit there, staring blankly?
2) The times that the book said were dodgy, weren't at all. The Quidditch match where Lupin looked both shaken and pleased ... ? Yes. There'd just been an intense Quidditch match! Why on Earth does looking that way mean he's Harry's dad? Hermione and Ron have often been described as looking that way, after a match or after the tasks in the Triwizard Tournament. Are they both Harry's dad too?
3) What would be the point? Why would they have switched?
4) Did the creator of this theory not read to the end of the Prisoner of Azkaban? A lot of the "evidence" of Lupin acting suspiciously was explained later by Lupin being a werewolf.
5) Didn't they also remember that Lily and James couldn't trust a lot of people, especially their friends? James trusted Sirius, no question. He clearly also trusted Pettigrew, because he agreed to let him be the Secret Keeper. Now who's left, I wonder ... now, I don't believe either though Lupin was the spy, but to let the man die for you?
6) Lupin is his own character, and acts a lot like it. Yes, James could be a good actor and know his friend ... but not in desperate times. He would have accidentally revealed himself as James a lot of times before now, but no ... Lupin has always acted how Lupin would.
7) It's a stupid ending. "Oh, Harry has his dad back! Happy ever after! Hooray!". And this is at the expense of a very fine character. Do people think J.K. Rowling is really that bad?
8) James would never have accepted to swap. Never. His son was at risk, he didn't know he himself was going to die and he wouldn't have left his wife.
9) Lupin remembers Lupin's memories. He wouldn't, if he was James.
10) The image of James came out of Voldemort's wand. Even if Lupin looked like him at the time, it wouldn't be him who came out of the wand. It would have been Lupin who'd died, so him who came out. And the memory of Lily wouldn't have said "Your dad's coming" because she'd know too.
11) We don't know what the Switching Spell is, so that isn't anything suspicious. But it seems to me just to switch the places of matter, not the souls.
12) Lupin was convinced Sirius Black was a killer. Now, again you could say James was just a good actor ... but I wouldn't. Nobody is that good. And he wouldn't have made such a play of not knowing things, if he really did. Even to act convincing. He could just not have said anything.
13) James would have known Pettigrew was around, but Lupin was in the dark about it. If he was James then he'd have been out taking revenge like Sirius was. He wouldn't have waited, as Lupin did.

So it's just a completely absurd theory with no grounds whatsoever :huh:

jordmundt6
October 24th, 2003, 9:56 pm
Jill--Nobody's spirit is trapped in Voldemort's wand. An echo of the person killed remains as a trace of an AK that's it. Lily and James are on the other side.

It's interesting that she said he wouldn't interact with a living Lily or James--might this mean that he'll interact with their shades or their ghosts yet? But again, I can't see them afraid of death.

whizbang121
October 26th, 2003, 4:45 am
I still have a very difficult time with this. For James to have done this, just seems so cowardly to me. I don't believe James would take extra precautions for himself, but not for Lily and Harry. If this theory turned out to be true, I would need a very good explanation from JKR why James would save his own skin like that, and leave Lily and Harry to be killed.

James wasn't shown being killed in the movie, because Harry wasn't in the room with him, so being as it's from his perspective, there is no perspective to show.



Hi there. Just to make it interesting, what if James and Remus switched before Lily married ......um ... right, Lupin in James' body? What if Lily was really in love with Lupin, but he was a werewolf and .... yodda .. yodda .. yodda.
So James, whose wand was good for transformations, etc., etc., etc. And then when the marauders were divided and conquered by Voldemort, (Dumbledore mentioned the Dark Lord was good at that strategy,) on and on ..... betrayal ...... sacrifice ...... frame up ....... Azkaban ...... rat ....... shrieking shack ........ time turner. Time turner? Hmmmmm.......

Drusilla
October 26th, 2003, 1:38 pm
All right,so Albus Dumbledore is the Weasley family's flying car,Snape is a vampire,Snape is a cockroach,Ginny is a cat Animagus,the key to destroying Voldemort lies in the Droobles' Best Blowing Gum wrappers Neville gets from his mum,Luna Lovegood is a Seer and Harry is Voldemort thanks to having a bit of Tom Riddle in him .Think about it,people:this forum has turned into the Quibbler! Of the theories I listed,the last is probably the most credible.There's no reason not to have fun with theories,but this one REALLY doesn't look likely to me.For one thing,if Lupin's body contained James Potter,why wouldn't James-in-Lupin know about the Secret-Keeper switch (which happened a week before the attack in Godric's Hollow)?For another,Sirius was closer to Harry than Lupin.If Lupin was James,wouldn't he want to get to know his own son a little better rather than let his best friend play a surrogate father-***-brother role to him?And wouln't Sirius,if he hung out with James-in-Lupin long enough,figure out pretty quickly he isn't really Lupin (and I'm sure he got to hang around with Lupin lots)?Not credible:that's what I think.


P.S. Tirwen,I love your sig:it's an exact description of my posting experience.

seeker
October 26th, 2003, 4:44 pm
I thik some of you are also forgetting that, apart from being a werewolf, Lupin did have a guilty secret during PoA- concealing the information tht Sirius was an animagus. This could explain both his running away from Trelawney's crystal gazing, as well as his shaken but pleased look after the Quidditch game. Remember- no one but Lupin was supposed to know that James, Sirius, or Peter was an animagus. Besides, consider Lupin's position during that match - he's watching Harry in an intense game, sees the "dementors" come, must owrry about Harry's reaction, and then sees a long dead friend's seret animagus form come out of his orphan son's wand.
I think one possibility is that Lupin feels sort of uneasy around Harry b/c there was some sort of strain in his relationship with James and/or Lily during their last months that led to their mistrust of him. I've often wondered if he didn't at one point either date Lily or at least have feelings for her, which may explain Rowling's careful description of Lupin's responses to Harry's reliving of his parent's deaths.

Maydeleat Greenly
October 28th, 2003, 2:32 am
I forgot what it's called but couldn't the quote about harry thinking lupic could read his mind is that Lupin was using that legimens or whatever it was ? I think dumbledore reads minds a lot as well ( i know this is off topic sorry) how else would he have suspected that Tom Riddle had opened the chamber and not hagrid and why else would DD look at harry all the time as if he were hiding something and ask " do you have something you want to ask me?" or something like that. The whole mind reading thing is very arguable... sorry for the rant

whizbang121
November 3rd, 2003, 7:03 am
Wasn't it Snape who Harry thought could read his mind. Is it possible Lily was in love with Lupin all along? Or the other way around?

Cat
November 3rd, 2003, 9:33 am
I find it most unnerving that the man who concocted this bizarre theory didn't seem to think that a man should show any emotional reaction to hearing a good friend's young son proclaim that he saw some of the last living moments of his brave father.

And why did he refrain from showing much emotion? Firstly, because he was Harry's teacher and Harry didn't know him very well. Secondly, because association with James gave Lupin association with Sirius and he was obviously very uncomfortable with that fact when it was brought up a moment later. Oh, and thirdly, some emotion had to be instigated for us to learn that Lupin was a friend to James.

Catgirl
November 3rd, 2003, 3:55 pm
I don't think Lily or James are trapped in anyones body because at the moment there traped in Voldermorts wand, or at least there spirits are. The Yew tree was reported to trap spirits and Voldermorts wand is made from Yew. Thats why I think there definetly dead.I was under the impression that that wasn't James and Lily any more than the diary was Tom Riddle. It was just an echo of them. Kind of like an interactive recording. I think Dumbledore himself said that it wasn't truely them. It was just a spell that acted like they would act.

I just read the theory and I think it's great, but it involves a lot of coldheartedness on James/Lupins part, which I don't think would happen.

Reading this theory is bizzarre to me because a couple of weeks ago I had a dream that I was Harry Potter hiding in Dumbledore's cupboard listening to him talking to the new DADA teacher. This is the most incredibley vivid dream I've ever had. It took me a while after I woke up to realise that I wasn't actually Harry Potter, but an eighteen year old muggle girl. Anyway the point is that at the end of the dream the DADA teacher turned out to be James who had been in hiding for years pretending he was dead. It's really freaky to now read a major theory about a DADA teacher really being James.

sindatur
November 3rd, 2003, 5:04 pm
Another reason Lupin can't be James, is that Lupin believed Sirius was the Secret Keeper and had betrayed Lily, James, and Harry, and was in Azkaban because he was guilty. If Lupin was James, wouldn't he know Peter was the Secret Keeper?

whizbang121
November 3rd, 2003, 9:01 pm
Your're probably right. There was so much confusion at that point. I have one GoF missing and the other out on loan, but at the end, Dumbledore in his speech about Cedric and the return of Voldemort cautioned everyone about keeping together and that causing dissention and distrust was one of Voldemort's best talents. I think that the confusion among the marauders is one example of this talent of Voldemort's at work.

harryfantotheend
November 7th, 2003, 5:20 pm
Whoa, whoa, whoa! I was just on www.babynames.com (http://www.babynames.com) and I was looking up Harry Potter names. I looked up James and came up with "supplanter" I had NO idea what that word meant, so I went to www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) and looked it up. I found that a supplanter is "one who wrongfully or illegally seizes and holds the place of another" Immediately thought of the Lupin is James theory. This is just adding fuel to the fire, but i found it VERRRRY interesting...

What do you guys think?

whizbang121
November 8th, 2003, 7:46 am
What if Lily and Lupin were in love. (Aren't lupines purple flowers that grow on stalks? Perennials. They multiply, too.)
Maybe James offer to switch with Lupin so that ........
I don't know where that's going.
Probably no place I want to go.
Back to the bunker.

lilmissmessy
November 9th, 2003, 12:10 am
Ok I havent had time to read this thread so maybe this has already been raised but for me the key issue about this theory is the fact that it was the ghost/shadow of James which came out of Voldemorts wand in GofF and spoke to Harry. These shadows were everything that Voldemort had killed. The shadow referred to Harry as son. Therefore James must be dead and this theory does not work for me. JK said that we will never see James and Lily alive again in Harrys lifetime and this is good enough for me.

journee
November 9th, 2003, 5:40 pm
Reading all the replies to this one particular thread has been very interesting to say the least. I do have one question, not sure it would be 100% relevant to this theory. But on page 321- Chamber of Secrets book..Tom Riddle states to Harry, "You'll be back with your dear Mudblood mother soon, Harry..". One question arises, why wouldn't he say "parents" instead of just mother if both parents are truly passed on?

Girl
November 9th, 2003, 5:51 pm
Reading all the replies to this one particular thread has been very interesting to say the least. I do have one question, not sure it would be 100% relevant to this theory. But on page 321- Chamber of Secrets book..Tom Riddle states to Harry, "You'll be back with your dear Mudblood mother soon, Harry..". One question arises, why wouldn't he say "parents" instead of just mother if both parents are truly passed on?


Tom Riddle is only a memory of Voldermort frozzen at 16. He does not know about Harry or what Harry had done. The only reason why Tom knew about Harry was because of Ginny, she told Tom all about Harry and how he defeated Voldermort.

The reason why Tom said your Mudblood mother was because Lilly was a mudblood and Tom looks down on them.

Doggy
November 9th, 2003, 6:06 pm
Ok. Lets just play with the theory that Lupin and James switched bodies, and James is alive in Lupin's body.

What about Lupin? Won't anyone here get sad if it turns out that the wonderful, sweet, kindhearted Lupin is dead?

And, why, in the 12-13 year calm from Voldemort would James not tell the Ministry/Dumbledore/Harry/everyone that he was in fact James? He could have gotten Sirius out of Azkaban, could have taken care of Harry, let him grow up properly. After the whole Godric's Hollow thing; James was unimportant to Voldemort (who was; may I add, considered dead). It's not like he'd risk his own life if he showed the world who he was.

For more stuff; see Dedalus very well-written and true post.

Inigo Imago
November 9th, 2003, 7:37 pm
I can' really add too much to the convo, but I suggest that you all read the North Tower #10 (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt10.shtml) editorial that Maline just finished. The only question that I have would be WHY would James switch bodies with Lupin, was he trying to save his own skin? Why would he voluntarily leave his wife, child, and one of his best friends to die at the hands of Lord Voldemort? Even if he did switch bodies leaving Lupin w/ his wife, even if he didn't know about the attack at Godric's Hollow, do you really think that he would sit on the sidelines and let Voldemort and his death eaters get away with it? Once he knew that Harry was alive, wouldn't he go to him? Sorry, these are just some of the questions that come to mind when I listen to the arguments trying to prove that they did switch bodies. If it turns out that they did then, that's great, Harry has a father, but don't get your hopes up... I find this highly illogical.

Inigo Imago

Like I said, please read the editorial, this point is proved by someone much smarter than me! North Tower #10 (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt10.shtml)

Edit: I just went back to read Dedalus's post - I totally agree with EVERYTHING you pointed out! The biggest question is WHY?

nightingale
November 9th, 2003, 8:14 pm
I agree, the biggest question is why on earth would James do such a thing, which, by the way, I don't think he did? On another note, I don't think that Lupin was in love with Lily, or any other such thing. It'd be too strange. Perhaps he had feelings for her, but I don't think he would have acted on them (, and I really hope he didn't even have those feelings for her, somehow, I just don't want that to be a truth). I really have no evidence for this one, other than there were bound to be some awkward moments if both of these were true, and something would have slipped here and there. It would just trouble me deeply if either one was true.

NYCwitch920
November 10th, 2003, 12:38 am
This theory came out before Book 5 did and after having read the latest novel in June, I no longer thought it was possible for James to be in Lupin's body. There was some evidence that seemed suspicious in other books but I highly doubt them now. JKR said that we would never see James and Lily alive ever again. We saw them as ghosts in Book 4 when they came out of Harry's wand but I don't think we would see Harry communicate with James through Lupin. When JKR says that we won't be seeing them alive, I don't think we'll be seeing James in another person's body because that would be considered "living", wouldn't it?

livypotter11
November 10th, 2003, 1:56 am
Remember in Book 3 Lupin asked why they didn't tell him about the switch[of secret-keeper] He figures out that they [ James & Lily :upset: ]thought he was a spy for Vol- ,sorry He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named,! James tells[should I say told :upset: ] Sirius everything. He would have told Sirius . I'm sure!! :agree:

This is a fairly morbid idea.

LadyStardust
November 10th, 2003, 4:11 am
This is really interesting, and while I dont think there's any way it is true, it's certainly gotten the gears in my head turning.

I think that the greatest evidence against this theory (even aside from everything in book 5) is James' memory in the end of book four.

Cat
November 10th, 2003, 2:32 pm
The most interesting thing that I find about this whole theory is that, if some unknown person on this forum or any other piped up with it, it would slide off the page in a matter of days and nobody would give it a moment's thought other than to say it was far-fetched and ridiculous. Which, frankly, it is. But because it was concocted by some guy who wrote a book, everybody seriously considers it and puts it up on their websites et cetera.

Do people put writers on pedastals of intellect or is there some serious inferiority complex going on?

swishandflick
November 10th, 2003, 4:20 pm
Hmmm, well I think its true that people do tend think it has credibility because it is in his book. But the rest of the book is pretty good, it points out some stuff that I missed but it still allows me to make my own opinion. The section that the theory is in is the "Restricted Section" which contains wacky ideas. I think he's got a new one coming out sometime before Christmas that focuses on book 5.

Puffskein
November 11th, 2003, 5:43 pm
The latest North Tower column on Mugglenet presents a solid argument against the Lupin is James theory. It makes the rather dubious assumption that if James were alive now he'd be just like he was at 15, but it's still a convincing case. One of the important points it makes is that Sirius, Molly and Dumbledore all behave more parentally to Harry than Lupin does, yet no-one ever suggests they're his parents in disguise.

ProngsLives
November 11th, 2003, 10:26 pm
i base all knowledge of harry potterology on that idea thus my screen name "prongslives" in lupin's body yea sha grls we knew that one forever
luv rachel

Rosie B.
January 4th, 2004, 5:58 pm
I must say that I like this theory. Dispite everyone's disbelief towards it. I definatly will keep it in the back of my mind as we approach book 6. However, I have also spotted another flaw in the theory. And that's Voldemort. We've learned that Voldy has the ability to peer into people's minds. Therefore unless Lupin was extreemly good at Occlumency Voldemort would have been able to guess who he was.

And if he did wouldn't he have taken the opportunity to tell Harry what a coward his father was?

[Pretty]_[Unicorn]
January 4th, 2004, 10:55 pm
I used to think that James was in Lupin's body but I see no sense in it now. In GoF at the end when Harry and Voldemort were linked together by their wands, all the people Voldemort had killed from last to first were coming out of his wand and we clearly saw James Potter so how can he be alive when we saw him coming out of Voldemort's wand witht he rest of the lot he had killed.

Wondering what you think?

LadyPadfoot
January 16th, 2004, 3:32 am
I don't know if this has any significance and I don't know whether I believe in the theory or not, but it is well thought out, but the arguements are well thought out too. But anyway, I noticed that in PoA Lupin "embraces Black like a brother" and in OotP Sirius says that he was a "second son" to James' parents so I dunno if that could mean anything or not but i thought I'd put it up here.

hesdead-dealwithit
January 16th, 2004, 4:09 am
Nah. It just means that they were really good friends. The only thing interesting I see in that is that it shows that Lupin was a lot closer to James and Sirius than a lot of people give him credit for; it seems everyone groups the Marauders into James and Sirius and then Lupin and Wormtail sitting on the side, Remus "above" the other two and Peter "below" the other two. Lupin may have been a little introverted, but he was still great friends with the other two.

Puffskein
January 16th, 2004, 10:50 am
The teachers in POA described James and Sirius as "like brothers" to show how inseparable they were. If James was going to swap bodies with anyone, you'd think it would be Sirius. Lupin in POA and OOTP was probably closer to Sirius than they would have been when James was alive becausae they're the only ones left. Lupin describes all of his three friends as if they were equally great friends to him, so they all meant a lot to him, even if James and Sirius were especially good friends with each other.

Adalbert Waffling
January 16th, 2004, 8:33 pm
Qoute by JKR: "We will never see a live Lily or James Potter." I rest my case.

Cat
January 16th, 2004, 9:48 pm
I find it mildly offensive that the lady who supposedly came up with this theory is treating Professor Lupin like some spare part. Complete disregard of everybody's favourite teaching werewolf! I can just imagine hoards of outraged Lupin lovers holding blunt instruments in a menacing way.

Quite a compelling image, really....

GryffindorGr
January 16th, 2004, 9:57 pm
I find it mildly offensive that the lady who supposedly came up with this theory is treating Professor Lupin like some spare part. Complete disregard of everybody's favourite teaching werewolf! I can just imagine hoards of outraged Lupin lovers holding blunt instruments in a menacing way.

Quite a compelling image, really....

lol! i agree, Cat. I just read the theory and i just found it quite so. Oh well, everyone has their theories. :)

silveria
February 15th, 2004, 11:19 am
I personally believe the theory, and I disagree with those who say James was cruel for "letting" Sirius sit in Azkaban. Does it ever explicitly say in any of the books that James and Lily knew that Sirius and Peter changed places wit the secret keeper thing? I got the impression that Sirius engineered the whole thing on his own. There is a TON of evidence (particularly in book three) that says Lupin could possibly be James.
One more thing: does anyone remember when Harry heard his mother's voice (when he was working with Lupin on Patronuses)? I just read that whole part again, and the order of events that Harry hears bothers me. It sounds to me as though someone leaves before Voldemort arrives, and someone else is trying to get to Harry before we hear that telltale, high-pitched laugh. I'm confused.

LadyPadfoot
February 15th, 2004, 8:15 pm
Hmmm..I like your observations, silveria. I'm going to have to go back and read that part again as well.

giantsquid28
February 15th, 2004, 10:46 pm
I personally believe the theory, and I disagree with those who say James was cruel for "letting" Sirius sit in Azkaban. Does it ever explicitly say in any of the books that James and Lily knew that Sirius and Peter changed places wit the secret keeper thing? I got the impression that Sirius engineered the whole thing on his own. There is a TON of evidence (particularly in book three) that says Lupin could possibly be James.
One more thing: does anyone remember when Harry heard his mother's voice (when he was working with Lupin on Patronuses)? I just read that whole part again, and the order of events that Harry hears bothers me. It sounds to me as though someone leaves before Voldemort arrives, and someone else is trying to get to Harry before we hear that telltale, high-pitched laugh. I'm confused.

Didn't Sirius say that he convinced James and Lily to change their secretkeeper? They are the ones being protected, so I think they should know who the secretkeeper is. Besides, I think Lily might have been the one to do that charm, so it would have been impossible to switch without her knowledge.

It's been awhile since I read it, but from what I remember, I am under the impression that what Harry hears is going backwards in time. The longer he stays in that "fog" the more he hears unfold. On the train, he just hear's Lily scream. At the Quidditch match, he hears her scream and then the laugh before she screams (I think.) When he is practicing with Lupin, he hears both of those things and then James talking before any of that happened.

loony4moony
February 18th, 2004, 6:37 pm
OK. Let us, for just a moment, forget all the evidence and all the debates, and think about what it would be like if this actually HAPPENED.
At the beginning of bk6:

'LUPIN': Erm, well, Harry...now that Sirius is dead, there's something that I really ought to tell you...
HARRY: What's that?
'LUPIN' (suddenly swathed in black robes with a mask and a breathy voice): I AM YOUR FATHER!

:eyebrows:
Erm, nooo.
Why oh why oh why would JKR create a wonderful, subtle, rounded character, develop this character through two seperate novels, and then give us a cheap, sparkly fairytale ending by him turning out to be someone else????
It would just rubbish the entire series for James to be alive. One of the key points of Harry's character is that he is an orphan, that he has to learn to live with that, and bear in mind the sacrifices that his parents made for him as he makes his decisions.

To finish...
Harry's parents gave their lives to keep Harry alive. A poor way to repay them...gambling their sacrifice for a bit of body-swap melodrama.
:rotfl:

Cat
February 18th, 2004, 11:20 pm
One more thing: does anyone remember when Harry heard his mother's voice (when he was working with Lupin on Patronuses)? I just read that whole part again, and the order of events that Harry hears bothers me. It sounds to me as though someone leaves before Voldemort arrives, and someone else is trying to get to Harry before we hear that telltale, high-pitched laugh. I'm confused.

How on earth did you get that?

'Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!'
'Stand aside, you silly girl... stand aside, now...'
'Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead - '
... 'Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy...'

And then there's James leaving the room that Lily was in, presumably going to the front room of the house where Voldemort arrives through the front door...

'Lily, take Harry and go! It's Him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off -'
The sounds of somebody stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - a cackle of high-pitched laughter -

Summergurl
February 19th, 2004, 5:51 am
Like 90% of the people here, I have to totally disagree with this theory for alot of reasons...many that have already been stated but Ill go on anyway.

Firstly, people ask why Lupin said " you heard james?". Well...wouldn't you be shocked if your best friends son heard the last moments of his fathers life?? not only Lupin probably feels for Harry, having to hear that but also having to think about that himself, what the last few moments of James and Lily's life was like.

Secondly, he was 'shaken' at Harry's protonaus because out of ALL the forms it could have taken....it took the form of his father's animagus. Id be shocked as well!

Now to the ghost topic and why James didnt say much....Like others have already said...it was mistake and Lily should come out first but even so...what was he to say?

James: Hey son! oooh I see your battling the Dark Lord!!!!

come on lol. He couldnt really have a full convo with him (even though I bet he would of liked to) because they needed Harry to stay focused on what he was doing and tell him as quickly as possible how to get away.

This theory, in my opinion, doesnt work.

I mean even if you are in someone else's body...your spirit is still you. so when you die wouldnt you look like yourself???? Lupins spirit is just inside James body his spriit wouldnt take James form as well when Lupin dies in the body.

James was a brave guy who sacrificed himself to protect his wife and son and thats that...I dont think there is anymore to it.

giantsquid28
February 19th, 2004, 5:58 am
Like 90% of the people here, I have to totally disagree with this theory for alot of reasons...many that have already been stated but Ill go on anyway.

Firstly, people ask why Lupin said " you heard james?". Well...wouldn't you be shocked if your best friends son heard the last moments of his fathers life?? not only Lupin probably feels for Harry, having to hear that but also having to think about that himself, what the last few moments of James and Lily's life was like.

Secondly, he was 'shaken' at Harry's protonaus because out of ALL the forms it could have taken....it took the form of his father's animagus. Id be shocked as well!

:clap: Very nicely worded!



Now to the ghost topic and why James didnt say much....Like others have already said...it was mistake and Lily should come out first but even so...what was he to say?

James: Hey son! oooh I see your battling the Dark Lord!!!!

come on lol. He couldnt really have a full convo with him (even though I bet he would of liked to) because they needed Harry to stay focused on what he was doing and tell him as quickly as possible how to get away.

The James/Lily thing was corrected in later editions. Their lines were pretty much switched in the "corrected" editions. James was the one who instructed Harry on what to do when the connections were broken. But, you're right and they really didn't have time to talk.

Seeker726
June 5th, 2004, 10:18 pm
That's a pretty shaky theory for many reasons, but the most obvious I can think of is that there would be no reason for James to hide his existence from Harry (and everyone else) for 11 years. All the "fatherly" acts made by Lupin are really just caring for a dead friend's son.

Well we still don't know why Voldemort was after James. If it's something really important then maybe it was important for him to go into hiding. If Lupin/James were to tell Harry, then who knows what could happen. Snape could've found out in those Occlumency lessons. Though I must admit I still think Lupin is Lupin and James is dead.

RELASHIO Rachel
June 6th, 2004, 7:15 am
well..when I first SAW this theory.. I wasn't skeptical at all, and I was CONVINCED that this theory was true. But.. now that I re-read it.. I find myself skeptical.

As many pointed out, JKR stated that we would never see James and Lily living. But does she mean in their OWN bodies, or does she mean living at all?? I suspect living at all.

This idea does have a strong support for being possible.. but I just don't think it's gonna work.. But maybe?

And the "Lupin acting Fatherly".. well.. Molly Weasley acts Motherly.. so it's possible to say that Lily Evans=Molly Weasley based on this.. right?? Wrong.. it's an extremely weak theory, but extremely creative nonetheless

dobby_rocks
June 6th, 2004, 8:02 am
I don’t see this theory ever panning out except in fan fiction. I mean we have already been told we will never see James and lily alive again. Now there is a slim chance that she might have been referring to their own bodies but I doubt it. Even had Lupin switched with James, wouldn’t we have seen Lupin coming out of the Voldmort’s Wand. Not to mention how would James have stayed in disguised all this years, as Lupin, if he had done poly juice potion surely he wouldn’t have had enough hairs to remain in his disguise all this years.

We have the fact that Lupin is a werewolf, we saw him transform in POA. If James was disguised as Lupin he wouldn’t transform unless James let Lupin bite him, which frankly would have been risky as it he could also have been killed by Lupin .

The Keeper
June 6th, 2004, 3:14 pm
Woah...

I seriously never considered this. But now after reading this thread, my mind has gone into overload...

I'll come back and post on the topic as soon as my head stops reeling...Lol.

percivalwulfric
June 6th, 2004, 6:55 pm
hmm, intersting, but i dont think james would be in Lupin as he was killed by Voldie and harry hears him do this in PoA when the dementors go near him

Silkeng
June 7th, 2004, 2:20 am
I don't believe this idea to have much merit. I can't imagine James not telling Harry he was alive. It would be to cruel to keep something like that from him. Also, what a cowardly thing to do hide or switch with Lupin. They knew Voldemort was after Harry, this would assume he left his son and wife to be protected by someone else? It just doesn't seem to me the sort of thing he would do. Now if Lupin as James was out trying to lead Voldemort away from his family that would make sense, but I agree with those above, he wouldn't transform into a werewolf, nor would he have enough hairs to last all these years.

harripottrfreek
June 7th, 2004, 3:13 am
I really don't think that is a possiblity...sounds crazy. I mean James in Lupin's body...I couldn't even imagine. It would be nice for Harry to have his father, but I think Lupin is just doing his job as one of James' best friends. He wants to protect Harry and be there for him, but I don't think that makes him James. I'm just not buying it...sorry.

Witflick
June 7th, 2004, 3:17 am
A lot of those "clues" are pretty shaky, like the one about "how would he know what James would have wanted?" The guy only spent the better part of 7 years with him, playing all sorts of pranks. He knew James' personality, and thus can wager a pretty good guess on what James would have wanted.

I'm not buying it.

whizbang121
July 8th, 2004, 4:33 pm
Lupin's reaction to Harry saying he heard his father during patronus lessons always makes me think something is up.

Stephie
July 8th, 2004, 5:09 pm
I've always had an idea about that, when I read a few clue books. The clues they books had were pretty good. It'd be really cool if it was James and not Lupin, though. Give Harry some happines...

Scarlet Tears
July 8th, 2004, 6:00 pm
Originally posted by Whizbang121
Lupin's reaction to Harry saying he heard his father during patronus lessons always makes me think something is up.

Having someone bring up the final moments of one's close friend is a reasonable explanation for Lupin's reaction to Harry during the patronous lesson. When Harry heard the hint of sorrow in Lupin's voice, it sounded a bit strange to him because he wasn't yet aware of the fact that the two had been good friends at Hogwarts. And because Lupin did not want to go into the details, he immediately changed the subject to spare himself the sorrow of having to relive those memories in front of Harry.

whizbang121
July 8th, 2004, 6:43 pm
Here's the original story from Mugglenet (http://www.mugglenet.com/lupinsidentity.shtml). Remember, this is pre OotP.
From Wizarding World Press's "Ultimate Unofficial Guide to Harry Potter" comes this shocking theory about how James Potter could be alive in Lupin's body.



Here are the clues JKR leaves for us:

* JKR mentions in several interviews that Lupin is her favorite character, and that Lupin made book 3 so important to write.

* Unlike everyone else, Lupin never stared at Harry's scar, or mentioned his eyes or resemblance to his father. Lupin addresses Harry by name as if he was already very familiar with him. (Chapter 5)

* "'I certainly don't want Harry dead...' An odd shiver passed over his face." (Chapter 17)

That's not just a teacher or friend saying that. JKR must have added that second bit for a reason.

* Lupin enters the room in "a shower of red sparks." (Chapter 17)

Throughout the series Harry is indundated with clues that he might be a heir of Gryffindor, and if he is, that probably means James was before him, which would explain the red sparks. Also, a shower of red and gold sparks came out of Harry's wand when he first tried it.

* Lupin, who was "both shaken and pleased," comes over to congratulate Harry on his spectacular Patronus. (Chapter 13)

Lupin must have been "shaken" from seeing that Harry's Patronus is James's own Patronus.

* Lupin has "no hesitation" about what Harry's father would think. (Chapter 18)

How can he be so sure about what Harry's father would think?

* When Harry tells Lupin he is hearing his mum's voice louder, Lupin looks "paler than usual." Harry then tells Lupin how he hears his his dad's voice for the first time trying to old off Voldemort so his mom could escape. "'You heard James?' said Lupin in a strange voice." (Chapter 12)

Why would Lupin react oddly to Harry hearing James? Because of the strange circumstances he realized it wasn't James saying it, it was Lupin.

* Trelawney said that Lupin "positively fled" when she offered to crystal gaze for him. (Chapter 11)

We thought that Lupin fled because he didn't want anyone to find out that he was a werewolf, but later in the story Dumbledore tells Harry that all of the staff had already been told that. He's afraid of something else being exposed -- why else would he run?

* Upon hearing that Harry hears his mom being murdered by Voldemort whenever a dementor is near him, Lupin made "a sudden motion with his arm, as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but then thought better of it." (Chapter 10)

For his own safety, he can't afford to let his emotions get the better of him, so he is trying to restrain himself. His emotions will make him weak, and he might let the truth slip. He wants to touch his son so badly but he (wisely) restrains himself.

* Lupin says: "Now that we could all transform."

This is arguable, but it would have made more sense for him to say "Now that they could all transform." So why didn't he?

* Several times, Harry wonders whether Lupin may be able to read his mind.

If he's his father, of course they are going to have a special bond.

* JK Rowling said in a chat that we would never see a live Lily or James Potter. However, if James is in Lupin's body, then we wouldn't be seeing James Potter. We would just know that it's him.

* Not sure if this is significant, but Lupin's first name is Remus -- the legendary wolf-child who co-founded Rome with his brother Romulus. Romulus later killed Remus. (More information can be found here.)



This is what might have happened to James and Remus:



As an extra, extra precaution, James and Remus switched bodies using a Switching Spell. (There are numerous references to Switching Spells throughout the series.) This was done without the knowledge of anybody else with the exception of Lily, who may have performed the spell. After the switch, Lupin (in James's body) stayed at Godric's Hollow while James (in Lupin's body) left.

Voldemort attacked, and Lupin (in James's body) was killed. Having no body to switch back to, James was now stuck inside Lupin's werewolf body.

With everything thinking he's Lupin, James is (at least temporarily) safe from Voldemort, who is sure that he's dead. Now that he knows Sirius is innocent, Sirius may be the only one he will trust with the information.

The reason James and Lupin had to take that one extra precaution is still unknown, and is at the heart of mysteries of this series. We know that Voldemort wanted to kill James and Harry, but not necessarily Lily. There is some important reason for keeping James and Harry alive.

emerald eyes
July 8th, 2004, 7:47 pm
In my opinion, I think it's a neat well-thought theory but... I just don't think that I'm convinced about it at all. I don't really think I would like to see the story take this route. It just seems to almost "cheapen" Lily's whole sacrifice to me. Like James almost saying "Ok you have to die for our son but I'll switch bodies so I can still go on living." It would be one thing if Lupin had been around through out Harry's life but just to come and then go again in book 3...

Sometimes I think we all search WAY to hard for possible answers/clues. :) My poor brain is overworked!

Trishg19
July 8th, 2004, 8:22 pm
Although the theory is intriging and there is actually a lot of evidence to support it, to me it seems very unlikely. I believe that both James and Lily are dead, and Lupin is Lupin. Because as much evidence as there is to support this theory I think there is even more that goes against it.

The reason I think Jo said that Lupin is such an important character is that, now with Sirius gone Lupin is now Harry's last connection to his parents I believe in some way Lupin will become the adult wizard in Harry's life.

hooded_demon
July 8th, 2004, 8:28 pm
If that is true Trishg19, On full moons, Harry would have to hide from his closest person to his parents.

I doubt James is in Lupin's body.

free_girl
July 8th, 2004, 9:12 pm
Wo. I never thought that. Maybe that would be cool. But I still want Sirius to come back and probaly more then James.

Sweetie
July 8th, 2004, 9:21 pm
If that is true Trishg19, On full moons, Harry would have to hide from his closest person to his parents.


Not really - I'm sure Lupin will continue taking that potion that keeps him harmless. Even if something happens to Snape, I'm sure he'd find other ways to obtain it.

And while this is an interesting theory, I doubt it. JKR has said we'll not see a live Lily or James, and I'm pretty sure James in Remus' body would still count as a live James.

SeekerLynch
July 8th, 2004, 9:30 pm
I'd just like to say that I don't believe for a second that Lupin is James.
All the 'evidence' I've heard supporting this theory is just little things that have been twisted to fit the theory, just because you don't want to believe that James is dead. There is an exelent article addressing the matter here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt10.shtml).

Scarlet Tears
July 8th, 2004, 9:54 pm
Whizbang, all of the clues mentioned in the Wizarding World Press book can be explained without having James being trapped in Lupin's body.

Originally posted by Whizbang121 (from Wizarding World Press)
Here are the clues JKR leaves for us:

* JKR mentions in several interviews that Lupin is her favorite character, and that Lupin made book 3 so important to write.
Of course it was important to write. By being introduced to Lupin, Harry discovers more than he had ever known about his father from one of James' closest friends. J.K. Rowling also uses Lupin to illustrate the prejudice against werewolves and other "abnormal" beings in the wizarding world, which is significant because it shows us the harmful effects of prejudice, as well as how truly unfounded they are. Also, such prejudice is part of why Voldemort is so full of hatred, and so Lupin's plight serves to explain the essential plot of the entire series. Plus, I'm sure Lupin will play a much greater role in future books, so introducing him into the story was important in itself.

* Unlike everyone else, Lupin never stared at Harry's scar, or mentioned his eyes or resemblance to his father. Lupin addresses Harry by name as if he was already very familiar with him. (Chapter 5)
The reason that Lupin doesn't stare at Harry's scar is probably because he understands that there is a human being behind that scar, and that Harry is not just some creature in a zoo.

In a way, he is familiar with Harry because he knew James so well, and since Harry resembles his father's appearance, it is not difficult for Lupin to speak to Harry as though he knew him already. In addition, I would imagine that he visited James and Lily right after Harry was born, so even though he would have only seen him as a baby, in a way he might have already met Harry before the incident on the train.

Also, even though this was written before the Order of the Phoenix came out, in the beginning of the book Kingsley Shacklebolt mentions the fact that Harry looks just like James, as Lupin had told him earlier.

Edit: I found the quote on page 47 of the US version - "Yeah, I see what you mean, Remus," said a bald black wizard standing farthes back; he had a deep, slow voice and wore a single gold hoop in his ear. "He looks exactly like James."

* "'I certainly don't want Harry dead...' An odd shiver passed over his face." (Chapter 17)

That's not just a teacher or friend saying that. JKR must have added that second bit for a reason.
Ah, but the line that follows that "odd shiver" is, "But I won't deny that I am a werewolf." Admitting that he is a werewolf would understandably cause an "odd shiver" to pass across Lupin's face.

* Lupin enters the room in "a shower of red sparks." (Chapter 17)

Throughout the series Harry is indundated with clues that he might be a heir of Gryffindor, and if he is, that probably means James was before him, which would explain the red sparks. Also, a shower of red and gold sparks came out of Harry's wand when he first tried it.

This depends on the fact that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor, which has not been proven, so we cannot be sure about its relevance. Also, we know of other spells that cause red sparks (Hagrid told Harry and the others during their detention in the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's stone to send up red sparks if they are in trouble). So if Draco, a Slytherin, is capable of sending up red sparks, then it means that the color of the sparks has nothing to do with a person's house.

* Lupin, who was "both shaken and pleased," comes over to congratulate Harry on his spectacular Patronus. (Chapter 13)

Lupin must have been "shaken" from seeing that Harry's Patronus is James's own Patronus.
Well, Lupin was probably very shaken because he thought more dementors had come to the match, and was afraid for Harry's safety.

no1 potter fan
July 8th, 2004, 9:59 pm
JKR keeps saying that we will never see james and lilly alive again

loony4moony
July 8th, 2004, 10:15 pm
Please- Lupin is a subtle, rounded and well-written character. Let's not exchange him for a bit of body-swap melodrama.

It makes no sense, either in the context of the story or as a literary device. I mean...why? Why take a character whose personality and relationship with others has been carefully developed throughout the series, and exchange him for someone else? More specifically, someone else whose original loss gives Harry a great deal of his emotional motivation? Wouldn't it just render half the series a wee bit pointless? :huh:

All those things that are given as 'evidence' of this theory can be easily explained by the fact that he is:
a) a werewolf
b) an old friend of James
c) someone who cares about Harry

Add to that the fact that JKR keeps a certain ambiguity about him during book 3 anyway, in order to keep the reader guessing, and you have a more than ample explanation of all his actions.

This theory is sheer overanalysis. :)

FoxX Onward
July 8th, 2004, 10:24 pm
i dont feel like reading this whole thread...but dont u think it's kinda weird for james to leave the love of his life to die??? Do u really think he would leave Lilly?

marji
July 8th, 2004, 10:27 pm
It's a cute theory, definitley. Lots of proof. But I think it's just a little too out-there for my taste. James, being a Gryffindor, would be brave. It's not brave to hide in your friend's body and wait for your wife to die. Also, Sirius mentions that he and James thought Lupin was the "leaker" who was reporting to Voldemort. Hold on, does it ever actually say James and Lily are Gryffindor in "canon?"

IceKat55
July 25th, 2004, 5:17 pm
It's a cute theory, definitley. Lots of proof. But I think it's just a little too out-there for my taste. James, being a Gryffindor, would be brave. It's not brave to hide in your friend's body and wait for your wife to die. Also, Sirius mentions that he and James thought Lupin was the "leaker" who was reporting to Voldemort. Hold on, does it ever actually say James and Lily are Gryffindor in "canon?"
I didn't read this whole thread, so forgive me, I'm sure it's been brought up...but this theory fascinates me, and I so hope it works out to be true.

That night, Voldemort attacked the Potter men. Told Lily to stand aside, didn't see her as a threat...but killed James. We don't yet know why, but perhaps James, for some reason, was as much of a target that night as little Harry was.

My theory: Lupin, James, and Lily all knew this. They knew that James was marked, Voldemort was coming for him. Something about James' survival was vital. Lily & Lupin pleaded with James to do the switch, just as a precaution, to ensure he lived on (to protect Harry? Or something yet to be revealed?)

James refused. He was not going to (in his eyes) abandon his wife & son. Lupin and/or Lily sneak up on him, knock him out, and perform the switch. When "James" comes to, he finds himself inside Lupin's body, left (for his own protection) in some far-off location. By the time he gets back to Godric's Hollow, Voldemort has attacked and Lily is dead, as is his own body. So now, he has no choice but to remain hidden, locked in Lupin's body. To reveal himself would mean the Death Eaters might come after him, to finish what Voldemort started.

Might explain the Lupin's "bridge scene" in the PoA movie, huh? :huh:

seeker
July 25th, 2004, 6:04 pm
Even if James didn't perform the switch willingly, it would still be the height of cowardice to abandon his child to ten years of neglect and emotional abuse and to not even tell him the truth once he knows him as Lupin years later. Certainly, were this theory true, the truth would come out at some point. Then, why wouldn't "Lupin" have told Harry who he was and the reasons for hiding the truth once he and his son had met? I don't care how important James's survival was, or what Dumbeldore or anyone else told him had to happen, it would just be cruelty for him not to have played at least a much larger role in his son's life. I mean, at the very least, even if he were keeping his identity hidden and knew that Harry had to live with the Dursleys because of the blood protection, he couldn't have visited? Couldn't have come as a muggle and introduced himself to Harry as an old friend of James's? Its not like he couldn't have forced Vernon and Petunia to let him in the house. Or, why not make an effort to stay in touch after GoF? Given the relative positions of Lupin and Harry at that point, I think that the onus was on Harry to contact Lupin. However, if Lupin were James, then it would be James's responsibility to keep in contact with his son, even if their true relationship were hidden.

WickedWitch21
July 25th, 2004, 6:20 pm
Definitely not. I think JK's been very clear about James' Potter death.
If he were alive, why would his ghost have come out of Voldemort's wand in GoF? And this is just a tiny bit of proof backing this point.

Kimmetje
July 25th, 2004, 6:24 pm
Definitely not. I think JK's been very clear about James' Potter death.
If he were alive, why would his ghost have come out of Voldemort's wand in GoF? And this is just a tiny bit of proof backing this point.

I totally agree and I think it's an absurd idea. Why would you even think that as the evidence really sucks. I think we should all just think that James and Lily are dead. I also think the 'why didn't Lupin/James tell than' idea as James would've told Harry once they met, I mean he would see his (supposedly) son...

msmooney
July 25th, 2004, 6:24 pm
I know this is a bit off-topic, but this thread so makes me think of Charles Dickens' "A Tale of Two Cities." In the novel, both Charles Darnay and Sydney Carton are in love with Lucie Manette, but Sydney knows that Lucie loves Charles and not himself. So when Charles is arrested in Paris and sentenced to death, Sydney goes to see him in prison and switches places with him in secret, and is thus guillotined in his stead. All the people who witnessed his death said "that it was the peacefullest man's face ever beheld...many added that he looked sublime and prophetic." Sydney's dying words were, "It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known."

If, for some crazy reason, Remus died so that James could live, I hope he went out exactly like Sydney Carton.

IceKat55
July 25th, 2004, 10:10 pm
If he were alive, why would his ghost have come out of Voldemort's wand in GoF? And this is just a tiny bit of proof backing this point.
That was merely a shadow of spells the wand had performed...it was not his ghost. And anyway, with this Switching Spell theory, James' body IS dead. His spirit is inside Lupin's body. :)

Even if James didn't perform the switch willingly, it would still be the height of cowardice to abandon his child to ten years of neglect and emotional abuse and to not even tell him the truth once he knows him as Lupin years later. Certainly, were this theory true, the truth would come out at some point.
ITA. There'd better be a darn good reason why he had to leave Harry with the Dursleys (mother's blood protection?) and hasn't told Harry yet (revealing himself as still alive, possibly alerting the DE's & Voldemort to that fact, putting himself in danger once again, having to go into hiding, making him unable to protect Harry while remaining himself undetected?), if it's him! :)

seeker
July 25th, 2004, 10:47 pm
I think your Tale of Two Cities analogy actually points out the ridiculousness of this theory, msmoony In that book, Carton sacrificed himself because he loved Lucie and knew that Charles, as her husband and the father of her daughter, needed to live for his family. He thought that it was more important for Charles Darnay to live than for him to live. However, this wouldn't have exactly worked if Charles had then lived under Carton's identity once he had returned to England and had left his wife and daughter, never to see them again until reappearing as his daughter's school master years later.... you get the point.

Doug
July 25th, 2004, 10:53 pm
Its a little out there in my opinion... and like everyone has said, Jo said we wont be seeing James or Lily alive again. It reminds me too much of the Moody/Crouch switch with the polyjuice potion in GoF. I think that if that theory was true, that Lupin/James would have said something to Harry or accidentally let something slip.

msmooney
July 25th, 2004, 11:48 pm
I absolutely get the point Seeker and think that the whole "James is still alive because he and Lupin switched places" is bizarre. But it did make me think of that episode.

daftie
July 26th, 2004, 1:14 am
I've hated this theory since the first time I heard about it. It honestly just makes me sick. JK has said that we will NEVER see James or Lily alive!

What's wrong with Lupin just being Lupin? He's one of my absolute favorite characters, and I found out in the end that he had actually been James all along, I wouldn't be happy. I would just be mad and disappointed that I had been hoodwinked. I really don't think JK would pull something like this.

All the clues mentioned are extremely shaky at best. Then add on the fact that all those quotes are taken out of context; when put back into the story, they make perfect sense and do nothing to suggest that Lupin is James.

Of course, take everything I say with a grain of salt, because I refuse to believe Lupin is anyone else but his own lovely self. :love:

TylerDurden
July 26th, 2004, 7:33 pm
wow what a dumb thread ha

RemusLupinFan
July 26th, 2004, 8:00 pm
There are so many reasons which many have mentioned that are totally against the theory that Lupin is really James. These are the reasons that I feel work best to illustrate why I don't believe this theory is true:

We have been specifically told by JK that we will never see James and Lily alive, and that means not even in someone else' body.
James' ghost came out of Voldemort's wand in GoF
Even if James didn't perform the switch willingly, it would still be the height of cowardice to abandon his child to ten years of neglect and emotional abuse and to not even tell him the truth once he knows him as Lupin years later. This is an extremely important point. From what we've seen of James' character, he was anything but a coward.
I think James (in Lupin's body) would have at least told his son that he was alive in PoA
If James was in Lupin's body, why wouldn't he have tried to get custody of his son after Voldemort's attack? Why wouldn't he have told Dumbledore that he and Lupin had used a Switching Spell so that Dumbledore wouldn't leave Harry at the Dursleys?
James must know Lupin's history and identity pretty well to fool everyone, and speak about himself and his history in such detail. He would have even fooled Sirius.This is also a very good point. James would have had to know how to mimic Lupin exactly in order to pass himself off as Lupin. This is something that just doesn't seem plausible to me

I also like Dedalus' and Scarlet Tears' posts, you both argued all of the counterpoints very well.

Aoweil
July 26th, 2004, 9:54 pm
Might explain the Lupin's "bridge scene" in the PoA movie, huh? :huh:

I thought the same thing! I don't buy the theory, but it would explain why Lupin seemed in love with Lily in that scene. :lol:

I do think that the theory is very interesting, and there is evidence to support it, but that evidence has some holes in it. I'm content to believe that Lupin is Lupin and James remains dead (:sad:)

IceKat55
July 26th, 2004, 11:42 pm
I've hated this theory since the first time I heard about it. It honestly just makes me sick. JK has said that we will NEVER see James or Lily alive!
Ah, but she's known for her trickery, isn't she? "Never see James alive" could mean never see him alive in his original body!! ;)

I thought the same thing! I don't buy the theory, but it would explain why Lupin seemed in love with Lily in that scene. :lol:
It sure would, wouldn't it? :p

Incendio
July 27th, 2004, 4:00 pm
I think this theory is interesting and it IS a possibility.....unfortunately I think it may be just a little far-fetched, although JK is known for trying to trick us....oh I dunno....I'll just stay undecided.

:huh: :shrug: :rolleyes: :whistle: :whistle:

Wizard13
July 27th, 2004, 4:19 pm
No, all that wird behavior was because he was friends with Sirius, knew he was an Animagus, and he was friends with James, and like Harry, secretly wanted to hear him again.

hermione283
March 17th, 2005, 4:40 am
I'll be honest, I bought the book and read this theory and was very intrigued by it. So I sat and thought about it for a little bit. I came to the realization that it can't be possible.
Why?
Because not only has JKR said that we would never see the Potters alive, but she also once said that James would've never left his wife and son to die and saved himself. So I believe her. And not only do I believe he wouldn't have left his wife and son to die, I don't think he would've switched bodies with one of his best friends, knowing he would probably end up dead too.
So, while it's an interesting theory, and for Harry's sake I wish he could have his father back. I'm pretty sure it's just Lupin...and that's ok because I really like him. He's one of my favorite characters.

ComicBookWorm
March 17th, 2005, 9:40 am
Well since JKR has specifically shot down this theory on her website. I don't think so.

Lupingirl90
March 18th, 2005, 1:04 am
I believe this theory 100 % , it makes sooooo much sense. And for all those people who say that James would never kill his best friend for personal reasons well they aren't exactly personal reasons , I think both Lupin and James both knew that if Harry lived through an attack from Voldemort , he would need an older male figure to help him along in his life (whether Harry likes it or not) , and who better than his father. Plus I'm sure theres some piece of info that we don't know that could make this very plausible.

ComicBookWorm
March 18th, 2005, 1:42 am
I believe this theory 100 % , it makes sooooo much sense. And for all those people who say that James would never kill his best friend for personal reasons well they aren't exactly personal reasons , I think both Lupin and James both knew that if Harry lived through an attack from Voldemort , he would need an older male figure to help him along in his life (whether Harry likes it or not) , and who better than his father. Plus I'm sure theres some piece of info that we don't know that could make this very plausible.
Here is a quote from JKR's website:
Did James and Lupin switch bodies before James was killed?

An ingenious theory, but no; James would never have saved himself and left his wife and son to die.That should leave no doubt about the fact that this isn't true.

RemusLupinFan
March 18th, 2005, 1:57 am
That should leave no doubt about the fact that this isn't true.Just a general question: now that this theory has been disproven, shouldn't the thread be put into the History of Magic Reference Section? I think that's what happened to the thread speculating that Arthur Weasley was going to become Minister of Magic once JKR told us he wasn't.

Durandal
March 18th, 2005, 2:05 am
Yes, that would make sense RemusLupinFan. I am particularily happy that this one is no longer possible, for reasons stated above. I never believed James could be so cowardly, and there's not much point to the whole theory. Now the new theory is that Sirius is inside Lupin's body or something anyway so there's no end to it. Poor Lupin, not even HP fans can accept him for who he is.

RemusLupinFan
March 18th, 2005, 2:29 am
Poor Lupin, not even HP fans can accept him for who he is.:tu: Amen, that's exactly the way I feel. People can't accept that Lupin is a character who is important enough to stand by himself without having to be somebody else in disguise. This is a topic that irks me to no end, so I too am glad it has been put to rest.

ComicBookWorm
March 18th, 2005, 2:36 am
I completely agree.

FireSlytherin
March 18th, 2005, 4:07 am
I think it's just a bon Harry and Remus have since Harrys father was best friends with remus. But I do see you point and I'm think Oh my god. But only one fact made me think that. I mean strange as it why would harry's partonus take the form of a stag? I see what you mean but James is dead. Unless there is a way for james to be reborn as Remus or his gohst take controll of remus's body.

wizard_wanabe
March 18th, 2005, 4:13 am
Firstly i apologize for not reading all posts, there are so many of them and i have so many theories i nedd to wirte a few of them down before i finish reading.

The body switch makes a certain amount of sense, we can presume LV went to Godric's Hollow to kill Harry and James, since he knocked the door in kills James then gives Lily a chance to live, if he had been there to just kill Harry i think he would have stunned James then killed Harry.

The reason james couldn't be used as the secret keeper after switching to Remus's body was because Sirius was already the secret-keeper and he says he suspected Remus was the traitor(PoA) Sirius would not have agreed to trade with Lupin.

The reason James didn't know about switching Peter for Sirius was for the same reason, Sirius felt so strongly about Remus being the spy he made them swear they wouldn't tel him, or anyone else.

Another good point is that we have only met the "real" Lupin in Snape's memory we don't have enough encounters with pre GH Lupin to know what his distinct personality was.

I may be rambling, but another thought just occurred to me. If James is as important as this theory suggests, perhaps they wouldn't have even told Lily.

ComicBookWorm
March 18th, 2005, 4:15 am
JKR said it didn't happen... period.

MioneBookworm
March 27th, 2005, 7:25 pm
Tusk, tusk, tusk. Very skeptical, Emerson. I mean, it's good evidence but...I don't know. I just find it really odd and unlikely. But who knows? J.K. loves surprises...

Erroll
March 27th, 2005, 10:37 pm
What kind of lousy Slytherin coward would abandon his wife, son, and best friend so he can remain alive?

That doesn't seem like what James would do. It's not even what a Gryffindor would do...

I don't believe it.

Kris_the_Girl
March 27th, 2005, 10:50 pm
Originally posted by Comicbookworm:
Originally Posted by JKR Website Section: F.A.Q.
Did James and Lupin switch bodies before James was killed?

An ingenious theory, but no; James would never have saved himself and left his wife and son to die.


I guess this should just keep being posted so everyone who skips pages (like I do!) will see that this theory has been debunked.

LinnendeBlack
March 27th, 2005, 10:52 pm
I really don't like that theory, possibly because it would mean one of my favourite characters is dead, but I don't like it. I don't think it will settle well with the majority of Harry Potter fans, I hope it isn't true.

I guess this should just keep being posted so everyone who skips pages (like I do!) will see that this theory has been debunked.

Oh right ok, thanks for that. :)

Im Mental
March 28th, 2005, 11:43 am
I don't believe this theory in my little brain.

BUT, I did notice in GOF, we are explained more about polyjuice potion through Crouch's wife. Even in death, she was NOT turned back to herself, but burried to look like Barty Jr. So, polyjuice can fool even in death.

Just thought that was worth pointing out for other discussions.

Secretofshadows
March 31st, 2005, 2:42 am
Sorry but I just don't belive it. I just doesn't seem right to me. Remus is his own free spirt. He cares about the Potters so he would be worried. That could be the reason why when Harry said he heard Lily and James in POA , Remus had a pale look on his face. Thats probably the reason Lupin would do anything for Harry. I mean Harry is James son and James and Lupin were best friends at Hogwarts. JKR already said many times that Lily and James will never be alive in any of the Harry Potter books.

delphina
March 31st, 2005, 3:42 am
Theory debunked. And, thank goodness. I would hate for a happily-ever-after. Harry's stories are far more sophisticated, finely-wrought, and will stand the test of time without being treated by kid-gloves because the world (either world - Harry's or ours) just doesn't work that way.

Ginevra_W
March 31st, 2005, 4:19 pm
Taking a friend's life would be the most evil thing James could do. Lupin could offer it, and he would refuse outright.

Not necessarily. If Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor, and if James was before him, then there could be something that is going to happen that required James to live. He wouldn't do it out of selfish reasons- why would he sacrifice his friend and let his own wife die, whilst running off to keep himself safe? He wouldn't, we can be pretty certain of that.

However, there might be a reason, and James knew it. Dumbledore has an unbelievable amount of insight and wisdom. Maybe he knew James had to live (can't think of a theory why at the moment though) and as much as James despised having to switch and let his friend die, he would know that he would be doing it for the greater good.

But, personally, I think Lupin is Lupin. It seems a bit of a far stretch and wishful thinking that he's actually James. But, who knows?

Darth_Ewok
March 31st, 2005, 7:58 pm
I agree and Rowling has clearly stated on several occaisons that we will never see a living James or Lily.

Remsy Luck
March 31st, 2005, 8:03 pm
JKR has also clearly addressed THIS theory and dismissed it.
It's like beating a dead horse...

leftofwhat
March 31st, 2005, 8:18 pm
it is most definitly an interesting theory... and a lot of it does make sense... except for this...

As an extra, extra precaution, James and Remus switched bodies using a Switching Spell. (There are numerous references to Switching Spells throughout the series.) This was done without the knowledge of anybody else with the exception of Lily, who may have performed the spell. After the switch, Lupin (in James's body) stayed at Godric's Hollow while James (in Lupin's body) left.

if james is the man we have heard so much about... (skill, bravery, loyalty... etc...) he would NEVER leave one of his dearest friends to fight of LV... and he would ahve never left his son and wife alone, knowing that they could be in danger... if they were to die, he would want to die with them.

as well... lupin/james, would have known that peter pettigrew was the secret keeper... and would have therefor been able to set sirius free ages before... as they would've never changed secret keepers without both lily, and james consent.


but that is a really interesting theory