For Neither Can Live While the Other Survives

Discussion for the Burrow article For Neither Can Live While the Other Survives (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theburrow/beth01.shtml) by RedSparks. Spoiler Warning!

This is a good response to the Harry is a Horcrux theory. Very well thought out. Good job.

I'm very much against the "Harry is a Horcrux" theory, but if the only way to destroy a human Horcrux is death it occurs to me that there are still ways that the prophecy can come true. If Harry had done something to Voldemort so that he was DYING but not actually dead, and yet would definitely be dead very very soon, he could then kill himself... or have someone do it for him. We're probably talking muggle means of near-death here... or maybe even Snape's rip-you-to-pieces spell (I forgot what it's called). I'm just pointing this out, I actually don't think Voldemort will die at all. Be defeated? Yeah. Die? Probably not- it's been repeated that there are things worse than death, so my guess is one of these things is happening to Voldemort... and I'm laughing when it does.

I loved this editorial! Thank you! There are so many reasons why Harry cannot be a Horcrux, most of which you adressed (here's another: if Harry had a piece of Voldemort's soul in him surely his scar would always be burning like mad). In any case, the question that has been bothering me, which I don't believe anyone else has adressed yet, is not whether or not Harry is a Horcrux but what Voldemort was intending to turn into a Horcrux after murdering him. Does the as-of-yet-unexplained significance of Godric's Hollow have anything to do with it?

*sigh* two years is such a long time!

Anyway -thank you very much for writing this editorial!

whoa! i had to reread most of the sentences just to get what the editorial was saying. that was a chunk load of info and i am one of the people hoping that harry need not die in book 7.

the "in essence divided" has been bugging me since i finished OotP and til now, i'm afraid i still don't fully understand it. what did DD mean by it when he said it?

nice ed. and i'm really looking forward to reading about Godrics Hollow. the name sounds so interesting, i wished i live in "Godrics Hollow", lol. and i want to know more about the place as we got to know a lot about Little Hangleton.

and another thing, if Harry is to go to his old house in G.H. would he find it as it was the night his parents were murdered? full of rubble and debris? i mean i understand that his parents were buried and that he's gonna visit their graves but what about the house? do we know if it was destroyed? or merely left alone for the past 16 years?

"No sir- house was almost destroyed but I got him out all right before the Muggles started swarmin' around." (Hagrid, PS: 16, paperback) this is all we know about G.H. or did i miss something?

Great editorial and I definitely agree that Harry is not a horcrux, there is too much logical evidence against it. Additionally, I liked your analysis of the prophecy.

And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives

I think this definitely means what Dumbledore said. Neither of them can just turn their back on the other and try to live a normal life while the other one is living. Harry could not just go back to school, graduate, and then get a job. Just like the Dark Lord could not just go ahead with his evil plans and ignore Harry's presence out there in the world. Both of them will hunt the other one down until the deed is done. Then and only then can one of them "live" a normal life.

Whew, that was long! But it sure was worth it! :) Another reason why Harry cannot be a Horcrux: Voldemort's soul can't reside in a body so full of love. It was the only thing that saved Harry from being completely possessed by Voldemort in the MoM in OotP, remember?

Wonderful editorial. I have been hoping to not see Harry die in the end, but a little (ok a lot) worried that will die.

I like your theory on how Harry is not a horcrux or his scar isn't. I just think it is too tricky to do it giving the circumstances (I assume). Plus, you are right when Harry didn't die, how could his death have caused the horcrux.

Anyway, thank you for the great thought put into the editorial!

So far, everyone who has commented, is against the Harry is a horcrux theory, as am I. I do hope you have managed to sway some of the other camp into thinking that also.

Yea, I agree that Harry can't be a horcrux. Or if he was he would have unknowingly destoyed the horcrux inside him when he felt love! Speaking of this, I think love definitely has some connection with destroying the horcruxes...

I pretty much agree that Harry is not an Horcrux and that he does not have to die : it's much too hard to read the prophecy in a manner that would be consistent with that (although DD warns us against giving too much importance to the prophecy...)

JKR has said that currently the last word in the last chapter of book 7 is "scar". Knowing JKR is very careful about what "info" she releases about future books, so it's meant to give us some info and help us speculate.

For one thing, this led me to believe Harry wouldn't be dead at the end of book 7 : hard to draw a very precise reasonning that would link the two but it just seemed to me that if Harry was dead at the end of book 7, we wouldn't give a **** about his scar and therefore it would be silly to end the book on that.

Continuing on the potential significance of the "scar", it does seem to have a life of its own, it was created as a murder was being performed, and it has clear very close ties to Voldemort, so I was wondering whether it could not be in some way the 6th or even a 7th Horcrux, although I don't pretend to be able to explain how the scar could be a horcrux independently of Harry... But speculaing si what this forum's about, right ?

what a great editorial, thanks, i have never been swayed by any of the 'harry is horcrux' stuff and everything (and more) that i had been thinking as to why he couldnt be was covered by your editorial, and i have to say far better than i could have said it myself!!! well done!!

Great editorial! It was long but interesting. I too do not think that Harry is a horcrux. Given what was said in the books and the editorial, there is a spell to create a horcrux. Despite the fact that Harry is the only one to date to survive the death curse, I do not think that there are two coincidences in his defeating the curse and the horcrux spell.

If nothing else, then Lily's death provided Harry with the protection of love. In the Goblet of Fire, Voldemort used Harry's blood to help bring him to human form. In turn, he also gained some of that love protection, and it will be interesting to see how that play's out, if at all. I am hoping that Voldemort's use of Harry's protected blood will turn on him in the end with Lily's final protection of Harry by rendering Voldemort less powerful than Harry (or something like that) during a duel with Harry and Voldemort in the end.

Superb editorial! This was thorough and very well written. I was especially intrigued with the association of the 'divided serpent' scene from Dumbledore's office. JKR doesn't typically put these things in just as filler, so it must be relevant. I think that scene warrants closer examination by all of us.

Amazing editorial! I agree with you completely, I don't believe Harry is a horcrux, and I'm glad someone was able to explain it so clearly.
I really enjoyed your analysis of the prophecy, and the explanation for the scene of the serpent, I never thought of that, and it makes perfect sense.
Very well written editorial!

Great editorial! I am also against the Harry as a Horcrux theory. It just seems to fly in the face of how the horcrux spell would work. I do have a thought on Nagini, however. If, as Dumbledore assumes, Nagini is a horcrux, then she is indeed a most unusual one. Why would Voldemort choose her? I think we ought to remember that the piece of soul in a horcrux is not a static essence. Like its owner, it is capable of acting and interacting, as the diary horcrux demonstrated (perhaps this is also what makes destroying a horcrux so dangerous - it's almost like battling the person himself). What is the advantage, then, of Voldemort using Nagini as a horcrux? Nagini and Voldemort's soul-piece can go places and do things that would be impossible if the horcrux was an inanimate object. Dumbledore also says he doesn't believe Voldemort can sense what is happening with a horcrux, because it is something separate from himself. However, Voldemort as a Parselmouth can speak to Nagini and find out what she knows, and her capacity to "know" stems from the fact that she is a horcrux with a piece of the Dark Lord's soul in her. He may not need to possess her at all if she is a horcrux. Possession of a living creature seems a dangerous thing to me, since it results in the life of the creature being drained away, resulting ultimately in its destruction (Quirrell, Ginny . . . almost).

In addition to the reasons described, one other thing occurred to me as to why Harry, in all likelihood, is not a Horcrux.

At the end of OotP, LV possesses Harry in order to try to bait DD to kill him. However, he is not able to possess Harry for long b/c they are so inimical to each other (as DD puts it, because Harry is full of love, which LV cannot abide).

If Harry were truly a Horcrux, wouldn't this give LV the "in" he needs to be able to possess Harry without having to shortly give it up as a bad job? Alternatively, could a portion of LV's soul truly reside in Harry if they are so inimical to each other?

I guess it might be possible, but it certainly seems unlikely. Add to this the objections in the editorial, I feel pretty certain that Harry is not a Horcrux.

(this does not mean, of course, that Harry will necessarily survive book 7, though I tend to think he will. After all, as Redhen pointed out, the prophecy says "either" will die at the hand of the other, not "both").

Excellent editorial. Ingenius use of the prophecy to proof that Harry is not a horcrux.

Very well thought out editorial, but I believe the main reasons Harry-as-Horcrux theory is wrong is due to two facts: that "Voldemort cannot reside in a body so filled with love." Something Harry has in abundance. It is why Voldemort could not stand to inhabit Harry's body at the Ministry (OotP) and that Lily died to protect him "an ancient magic," a protection that would prevent any type of possession be the would-be murderer and why Harry cannot possibly be a Horcrux.

Great Editorial. I liked that you made it longish to prove your point really well. The main reason I think Harry is not a Horcrux is that Voldemort was planning on using Harry to make his last Horcrux, but Harrry never died so therefor the Horcrux was never and could never have been made.

Also, we know that their are other spells needed to create a Horcrux, so Voldemort would not have had the means to make Harry one (seeing as how he turned into a vapor and whatnot when the spell rebounded..... :huh: )

I think you did a great job highlighting the primary reasons that Harry is not a horcrux. I think the fact that his scar could still be one is still a possibility, though I'm with you in that I don't find it likely. This editorial helped me straighten out some of my own thoughts; well done.

Great editorial, I am one of those who have been trying to convert people into believing that Harry is not a Horcrux. GOPHermione, the scar is a part of Harry so therefore if you think that Harry is not a Horcrux then his scar cannot be one either.

DaProngs:

the scar is a part of Harry so therefore if you think that Harry is not a Horcrux then his scar cannot be one either.

I agree. I think that you are right about the scar being a part of Harry. We know that their is something special about Harry's scar, but I think we already know what it is. It is his connection with the dark lord, not only physically, but emotonally as well. It is one of the reasons Voldemort wants Harry dead (not the only reason, but one of them). So, we know that it is extremly special for a whole laundry list of reasons, but I don't think that it is housing Voldemort's incapable of loving soul.

Very Nicely done. As others have pointed out, nice connection with Ootp and the scene with the silver object and the snake in essence divided. That's absolutely the best reasoning I've heard yet.

Great editorial. I've thought the Harry is a Horcrux and ohmigod he's going to die is off base for many of the reasons already posted here.

I'm kind of leaning towards thinking that Voldemort used James to make the Horcrux. Voldemort killed James without giving him a choice in life or death but Lily was given the choice to step aside and save her life. Why would Voldemort let her live if he was going there with the intention of making her the horcrux?

Does Godric's Hollow refer to Godric Gryffindor? Maybe there was an artifact there that Voldemort used for his horcrux with James' death before going to kill Harry.

I really like the way this article explained the reasons why Harry is not a Horcrux, and I don't think he is, either, but I wanted to point out one other thing that I think proves he isn't. In OOtP, in the Department of Mysteries, Voldemort possesed Harry to try to get Dumbledore to kill him, but he could not bear to be inside Harry because of the love in Harry's heart. When Dumbledore tells Harry about the prophecy, he points out that the ability to love is his greatest strength. So, if Voldemort can't reside in Harry's mind for more than a few moments, I think it's safe to say it would be impossible for Harry to have carried around a piece of his soul for all those years. : :eyebrows:

Yea & if he had one at 1st it WOULD have been destroyd as soon as e felt love!

Yea, I agree that Harry can't be a horcrux. Or if he was he would have unknowingly destoyed the horcrux inside him when he felt love! Speaking of this, I think love definitely has some connection with destroying the horcruxes...
the lighteningbolt scar resembles the crack in the ring. I wonder if the scar appeared when harry felt love and destroyed the horcrux that was in him. I personally do not think Harry is a horcrux. But, if he WAS, the scar could be the result of the horcrux being destroyed.

Great editorial. I've thought the Harry is a Horcrux and ohmigod he's going to die is off base for many of the reasons already posted here.

I'm kind of leaning towards thinking that Voldemort used James to make the Horcrux. Voldemort killed James without giving him a choice in life or death but Lily was given the choice to step aside and save her life. Why would Voldemort let her live if he was going there with the intention of making her the horcrux?

Does Godric's Hollow refer to Godric Gryffindor? Maybe there was an artifact there that Voldemort used for his horcrux with James' death before going to kill Harry.
That's a good point! I figured Harry would find something there, and it seems likely there would be some sort of relic that belonged to Gryffindor there, because the place is obviously named after him. Maybe there is a horcrux there, or maybe there's something there that Voldemort wants to use as a horcrux, something he was going to use when he killed Harry, and so the final showdown will be there at the end. That would be the perfect place, really. They could end it where it started.

the lighteningbolt scar resembles the crack in the ring. I wonder if the scar appeared when harry felt love and destroyed the horcrux that was in him. I personally do not think Harry is a horcrux. But, if he WAS, the scar could be the result of the horcrux being destroyed.
I hadn't thought about it from that POV, but it could be possible. It would be one less to worry about.

[FONT=Book Antiqua]QUOTE=SharonDWB]Discussion for the Burrow article For Neither Can Live While the Other Survives (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theburrow/beth01.shtml) by RedSparks. Spoiler Warning![/QUOTE]

I congratulate you on your well thought-out editorial and agree on some points and respectfully disagree on others. First, I agree that Harry is NOT a horacrux. Your reasons are the same conclusions I have made upon reading the series. I read through the interview of Emerson and Melissa with J.K.Rowling, and based on Mrs. Rowling's attitude on Severus Snape, I believe that he is indeed a traitor. I hold to the belief that only those who owe Harry their lives as well as close friends will ultimately help Harry in destroying the remaining horcruxes and Voldemort himself. I also believe, again after reading through the interview, that Aunt Petunia may aid Harry in his quest. On this vein, I am wondering whether Harry's protection that Dumberdore set up until Harry is of age will indeed remain, since the caster in now deceased.
Now, to further explain why I believe that Snape is evil. When Draco and Dumberdore were talking on the "lightning-struck tower," Draco explained that Snape made the unbreakable vow with his mother, and Dumberdore commented that Snape wanted Draco to believe that it happened, even though Dumberdore did not believe that this oath actually happened. That alone, along with Dumberdore pleading with Snape, which I believe that he was still being affected from the potion he drank earlier, is the reason I believe the Snape is indeed evil.
Lastly, I would like to ask whether it might be possible that the tiara that Molly's Aunt Muriel could be a possible horacrux? Who knows, except the beloved JKR?!

That was a very well written editorial.

There is one thing you passed over though. If Harry were a horcrux, then imagine their final battle, should it ever occur. Harry could kill Voldemort's present body, thus committing the most evil act. He could then use the horcrux spell on himself to divide his soul (essentially splitting the part of Voldemort that lies within him). Also if Harry IS a horcrux, it is also possible that Voldemort already extracted his soul when he drew blood from Harry at the end of Goblet of Fire.

the lighteningbolt scar resembles the crack in the ring. I wonder if the scar appeared when harry felt love and destroyed the horcrux that was in him. I personally do not think Harry is a horcrux. But, if he WAS, the scar could be the result of the horcrux being destroyed.
Ummmmmm...Harry sort of had the scar before he fell in love.

Not a bad idea actually, just...not a possible one.

If the ferment of soul can be extracted from Harry without killing him, (for example, if the scenario I presented earlier were true, that a human Horcrux can be reversed by the opposite of the Horcrux spell and an act of good), then we’re not too bad off. The soul could be removed.

If LV has become aware that Harry has a chunk of his soul (remember, Harry does have a "bit" of LV in him, and LV is not leaving too many other bits laying about the place), then this would explain why Snape forbade the other DEs from killing Harry. LV needs to remove the piece of his soul from Harry before killing him in order to preserve that piece.

However, if the only way to destroy a human Horcrux is death, we have a conundrum on our hands. Harry cannot kill Voldemort if a Horcrux remains, but Voldemort cannot die at Harry’s hands if Harry is already dead.

Ah, conundrums like this are the stuff of prophecy! Prophecies rely on irony: they always state truths, but they rarely mean what they appear to mean.

So, let us say that the only remaining Horcrux is in Harry's forehead. How can Voldemort die at Harry's hands?

Simple. An act of self-sacrifice that kills both Harry and LV. LV dies at Harry's hands. Of course, so does Harry, but that does not conflict with the prophecy at all.

This will require that Harry realize that his scar is a piece of LV's soul. However, the two oldest as-yet-unexplained mysteries of the HP series are: 1) what is Harry's scar? and, 2) what is the "bit" of Voldemort that Harry acquired? The "accidental Horcrux" hypothesis explains both of them, and also provides a ready yet ironic solution to the prophecy.

That, and critically highly acclaimed tear-jerker ending.

Harry could kill Voldemort's present body, thus committing the most evil act.

Killing is not evil, murder is. Murder is a very specific type of killing. Killing in self-defense or to protect loved ones is not an act of evil, but one of necessity.

Thus, Harry killing LV would not tear Harry's soul.

Great editorial, I am one of those who have been trying to convert people into believing that Harry is not a Horcrux. GOPHermione, the scar is a part of Harry so therefore if you think that Harry is not a Horcrux then his scar cannot be one either.

That is like saying that a parsite attached to you is part of you. Harry's scar always has acted as an independent agent: it is sort of like a tumor or growth. Remember, Harry has a "bit" of Lord Voldemort stuck to him, and the scar likely is that point. It is grafted onto Harry, but it really is not part of him, anymore than a prosthetic attachment is part of someone.


Again, one should not consider aspects of HP without looking at the whole. Throughout the series, a primary theme has been that self-sacrifice in the name of love is something that good people do. We have seen it several times. That Harry might do this has been foreshadowed throughout the books. JKR even has said that she does not flaunt her Christian beliefs because they give away too much of the story. Well, having Harry carry the final piece of LV's destruction with him opens the door for just this sort of self-sacrifice. The whole story is about choice, love and death: how better to punctuate that story than by having Harry sacrifice himself to destroy Voldemort and save those that he loves?

Ummmmmm...Harry sort of had the scar before he fell in love.

Not a bad idea actually, just...not a possible one.
Feeling love doesn't have to mean 'falling in love'. Harry felt love from his parents. They died trying to protect him. He was a year old. He felt their love for him. He may even have been asleep when Voldemort attacked. He could have been dreaming of the love his parents gave him. He knew he was loved.

Thanks to everyone for the kind words about my editorial. I'm glad that people have enjoyed reading it.

Ah, conundrums like this are the stuff of prophecy! Prophecies rely on irony: they always state truths, but they rarely mean what they appear to mean.You misread. I didn't say the prophecy was a conundrum. The conundrum is how Harry can defeat Voldemort if he is a Horcrux.

So, let us say that the only remaining Horcrux is in Harry's forehead. How can Voldemort die at Harry's hands?

Simple. An act of self-sacrifice that kills both Harry and LV. LV dies at Harry's hands. Of course, so does Harry, but that does not conflict with the prophecy at all. Except that it must be some method that kills Harry BEFORE Voldemort dies. Or else he will still have a Horcrux in Harry tying his soul to earth. How do you propose that happens?

This will require that Harry realize that his scar is a piece of LV's soul. However, the two oldest as-yet-unexplained mysteries of the HP series are: 1) what is Harry's scar? and, 2) what is the "bit" of Voldemort that Harry acquired? The "accidental Horcrux" hypothesis explains both of them, and also provides a ready yet ironic solution to the prophecy.
That, and critically highly acclaimed tear-jerker ending.As I said in the editorial, I do not think that the Horcrux spell can be done accidentally. It is very serious Dark Magic. And I don't think it does explain what Harry's scar is - before the Horcrux was removed from the diary, there were no odd markings on it. We cannot say for sure about the ring. Why would this one make a mark? It would not be advantageous for the Horcrux maker - then people would know what it was. As for the bit of Voldemort in Harry, this is just a difference of opinion. A soul is not magical abilities (such as Parseltongue), which is at least partially what transferred to Harry. This cannot be proof that Harry is a Horcrux.

Again, one should not consider aspects of HP without looking at the whole. Throughout the series, a primary theme has been that self-sacrifice in the name of love is something that good people do. We have seen it several times. That Harry might do this has been foreshadowed throughout the books. JKR even has said that she does not flaunt her Christian beliefs because they give away too much of the story. Well, having Harry carry the final piece of LV's destruction with him opens the door for just this sort of self-sacrifice. The whole story is about choice, love and death: how better to punctuate that story than by having Harry sacrifice himself to destroy Voldemort and save those that he loves?
Harry being a Horcrux is not the only possible tear jerker ending. I never said I thought it was guaranteed that Harry would survive. In fact, I think that there is a strong possibility that Harry will die defeating Voldemort. But not because he is a Horcrux. It is ridiculous to imply that Harry being a Horcrux is the only circumstance in which Harry would sacrifice himself in the end. Isn't it more poignant if he doesn't HAVE to sacrifice himself, but CHOOSES to do so?

[QUOTE=RedSparks]Thanks to everyone for the kind words about my editorial. I'm glad that people have enjoyed reading it.

You misread. I didn't say the prophecy was a conundrum. The conundrum is how Harry can defeat Voldemort if he is a Horcrux.

Except that it must be some method that kills Harry BEFORE Voldemort dies. Or else he will still have a Horcrux in Harry tying his soul to earth. How do you propose that happens?

Once in another forum you posted something about being an endlessloop if Harry was a horcrux and this explenation of yours was the one that really sort of conveiced me,of course we cant really know until J>K writes it but I guess your point was fairly made by this post you sent back .Very good editorial,congratulations.

RedSparks - I was involved in the "Magic Moste Evil" editorial thread the other day, when we were discussing this very subject. I am glad to see a 5-page editorial on your thinking. Very well done. You have not wavered from your position, and I commend you for that. I agree completely, Harry can not be a Horcrux (even accidentally). If Jo can figure out a way for this to happen, and for Dumbledore not to know that Harry is one all this time (he has known about the Horcrux(es) since Book 2, just not how many), then either she has been leading us down the garden path or she is a bad author. But we know she is not a bad author, the first six books have shown us that, she hides clues, but she, like Dumbledore, does not lie to us. If she has started in this last book to deceive us (which I refuse to believe), then I will be sorely disappointed. You do not change the rules in the sixth book out of seven (total).

I really want to say that I enjoyed all the extra thoughts of yours on this highly charged subject.

Feeling love doesn't have to mean 'falling in love'. Harry felt love from his parents. They died trying to protect him. He was a year old. He felt their love for him. He may even have been asleep when Voldemort attacked. He could have been dreaming of the love his parents gave him. He knew he was loved. Your idea has merit but, unfortunately, a few holes in it: firstly we are actually told that Harry's scar is a result of Voldermort's failed curse (whether that same failed curse also created a Horcrux is not the question -Harry's lighting bolt scar is the result of failed Dark Magic, not a love-destroyed Horcrux). Secondly, he was awake when Lily was murdered and Voldermort turned his wand on baby Harry or our hero would not have those charming Dementor-induced recollection of the moment.

I don't think Harry is a horcrux either and I don't think the scar is one. I think the scar is a relic of the curse, like when someone gets injured, maybe almost dies but the scars remain. Harry's scar is magical and has different properties than a "normal" scar, but in the end, it's a scar. The scar is important, but it seemed less important in HBP. Voldemort figured out in OOTP that it was a little ariel for his thoughts and feeling (partly helped by Snape's occulmancy lessons I believe.) Now that Harry can't feel what Voldemort does, I don't think the scar will play a big role in book 7. I could be wrong though, especially if the last word of the book is "scar", but I have a feeling that maybe it will be used in past tense, it point out the importance it once had.

Originally Posted by Wimsey
That is like saying that a parsite attached to you is part of you. Harry's scar always has acted as an independent agent: it is sort of like a tumor or growth. Remember, Harry has a "bit" of Lord Voldemort stuck to him, and the scar likely is that point. It is grafted onto Harry, but it really is not part of him, anymore than a prosthetic attachment is part of someone.


Again, one should not consider aspects of HP without looking at the whole. Throughout the series, a primary theme has been that self-sacrifice in the name of love is something that good people do. We have seen it several times. That Harry might do this has been foreshadowed throughout the books. JKR even has said that she does not flaunt her Christian beliefs because they give away too much of the story. Well, having Harry carry the final piece of LV's destruction with him opens the door for just this sort of self-sacrifice. The whole story is about choice, love and death: how better to punctuate that story than by having Harry sacrifice himself to destroy Voldemort and save those that he loves?

I really understand what you're saying but I'm stickign firm to what I said. His scar isn't a Horcrux. It is a part of him, it doesn't think for itself. Just because it's a cursed scar it doesn't say. It just like any other human infliction. When some one has arthritis, doesn't it pain them unexpectedely just like Harry's scar does? It doesn't think for itself, or as we might put it has a brain of it's own. His skin was perfect until the scar appeared upon his forehead. it's kind of a tear i nthe form of a lightning bolt. Now do you see how you misinterpreted my words, it's not like a brain tumor, those develop over a period of time I think. Just like how humans get scar, a scrap, scratch, Harry got it like that.

Now you're also saying that Harry's scar is not a part of him, a protestic arm, leg can be removed, due to things like you're growing so you need to get a new one. The scar cannot be removed or anythign of the sort, it's a part of him, on his body, it's stuck for all of his life. An infliction. Hence the scar as i said is a part of him.

Good editorial exept one thing, your forgetign the other person that can fulfill the prophecy is Neville, so maybe Harry must die and then Voldy will mark Neville as an equal right before death, thus fullfilling the prophecy. But at a miraculous moment, Voldy does a counter spell and both them die. Maybe Haryy dosen't even die and just gets the soul out of him.

I'm kind of leaning towards thinking that Voldemort used James to make the Horcrux. Voldemort killed James without giving him a choice in life or death but Lily was given the choice to step aside and save her life. Why would Voldemort let her live if he was going there with the intention of making her the horcrux?

In GoF when Voldemort's wand regurgitates all the spells it has cast, the first one is Cedric Diggory's murder, and the last one is Harry's father. That means we know all the spells cast between those 2 events (using Voldemort's wand). Given that no spell was unaccounted for (they were all murders) can we assume that no Horcrux spell was created after the murder of James (or Lily, or even Frank Bryce)? If so then there was no Horcrux created (deliberately) at Godric's Hollow, and Nagini was not used as a Horcrux following Frank Bryce's murder.

Good questions as to why Lord V would allow Lily to step aside. Perhaps he thought she wasn't a threat, or perhaps he wanted to use her for something else (I have a theory here that Snape was at Godric'c Hollow, and he loved Lily, so Lord V gave her the choice to go with Snape and live).

Good editorial exept one thing, your forgetign the other person that can fulfill the prophecy is Neville, so maybe Harry must die and then Voldy will mark Neville as an equal right before death, thus fullfilling the prophecy. But at a miraculous moment, Voldy does a counter spell and both them die. Maybe Haryy dosen't even die and just gets the soul out of him. Neville is no longer part of the prophesy, this is stressed over and over again in HBP: Voldermort picked Harry, Harry is the one the prophesy refers to, by picking Harry, Voldemort made Harry the one the prophesy refered to. End. Of. Story. Neville was in the running, once upon a time, but now he is no more significant to the prophesy or the fulfillment of the prophesy than Mrs. Noris or the Bloody Baron.

[COLOR=Sienna]i am against that harry is horcrux i dont believe it
JKR had brilliant mind so she introduced to killing of Frank Bruve in GoF because[COLOR=Sienna] she want nagini to kill that muggle
but some will believe that how Dark Lord knoes that in future he was going to kill off a muggle in future by help of nagini
and most of all that Frank Bruce died because of killing curse

but this all not prove that harry is horcux
prophecy say that neither can survive when both of....... ( you know)
and when voldemor.. oops gone to kill harry he could simply not perform spell needed for horcrux
and prophecy will not allow both of them to be part of one soul (many think they are)
since harry and voldything could not kill each other by their wands
then if their both bodies are part of He Who Must Not Be Named then how will they kill each other. this means that if voldemort try to kill harry he killed his own horcrux
and we know that Dark Lord tries to kill harry many times

[SIZE=3]P.S. i am new to writing editorials but not to writing and harry

Dumb;edore says in SS/PS that Harry will have that scar forever.

Harry definitely did not use this method to destroy the diary Horcrux. It doesn’t appear that Dumbledore removed the soul from the ring in this manner either (though we didn’t see it); I doubt there happened to be someone around whose life needed saving at that particular moment.

on the contrary, Dumbledore's life was needing saving at the moment. Maybe Snape saved Dumbledore's life and then Dumbledore told Snape how to uncase the soul from the ring. Just a thought

Great job! I think one of the biggest points we have to understand with the question "is Harry a horcrux or not," is the fact that Voldemort can't possess Harry for more than a few seconds without killing himself (or at least causing himself excruciating pain). From this angle it seems impossible for anyone to even think that Harry is, or was ever, a horcrux. If Voldemort's body can't reside in Harry for more than a few seconds then obviously his soul can't have resided there for the last 16 years! Besides, I think your right in saying that Dumbledore would have thought of this theory way before now and I'm sure he would have already preformed the necessary magic to counteract the horcrux spell. But again I stress the fact that Voldemort can't reside inside Harry. I also wanted to thank you for writting this because there is no way that Harry could be a horcrux and it seems to me that you have examined every way he could be one and shot it down. Great job and I hope there is more to come!!! :tu:

Good editorial exept one thing, your forgetign the other person that can fulfill the prophecy is Neville, so maybe Harry must die and then Voldy will mark Neville as an equal right before death, thus fullfilling the prophecy. But at a miraculous moment, Voldy does a counter spell and both them die. Maybe Haryy dosen't even die and just gets the soul out of him.
your forgetting one thing: dumbledore already adressed this issue. harry thought the same thing when he found out about neville's b-day and everything and dumbledore told harry that voldemort chose harry to be the one that would be a threat that night at godric's hollow. that means that harry is the one. according to the prophecy, the marked one is the only one that can kill voldemort. harry is the one not neville, harry has already been chosen. there is no one else.

I am so glad that you pointed out the facts of the prophecy. As I had been reading various Harry-is-a-Horcrux theories, I kept thinking about how against the prophecy they would be.
Exactly how you said that "either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives"
Also, I'm highly doubting all Harry-will-die-and-Neville-will-kill-Voldermort theories, because they also go against the prophecy. Since Harry is the "chosen one" and the only one able to defeat Voldemort, it wouldn't make sense for Neville to kill him!
Well thats what I think at least.
Great editorial! :tu:

I just read the one above about Neville, sorry to be repetitive. But Neville just can't be the one to defeat Voldemort, and I get sick of hearing that theory.

I think one of the biggest points we have to understand with the question "is Harry a horcrux or not," is the fact that Voldemort can't possess Harry for more than a few seconds without killing himself (or at least causing himself excruciating pain). From this angle it seems impossible for anyone to even think that Harry is, or was ever, a horcrux. If Voldemort's body can't reside in Harry for more than a few seconds then obviously his soul can't have resided there for the last 16 years!


Well yes, but then again, and I've said this before (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=2937272&postcount=1335), in CoS Dumbledore and Harry have a conversation:
Dumbledore: "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure..."
Harry: "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?"
Dumbledore: "It certainly seems so."

And I think that quote's very significant, because it explains why the link between Lord V and Harry is so strong, it sets up the whole Horcrux idea for the future, and it is very strong dramatically (little wizard has part of soul of big evil wizard inside him).

We know JKR is a very inventive writer, so I'm sure she can write herself out of this (and the whole neither can live while the other survives bizarreness) quite easily.

Well yes, but then again, and I've said this before (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=2937272&postcount=1335), in CoS Dumbledore and Harry have a conversation:
Dumbledore: "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure..."
Harry: "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?"
Dumbledore: "It certainly seems so."

And I think that quote's very significant, because it explains why the link between Lord V and Harry is so strong, it sets up the whole Horcrux idea for the future, and it is very strong dramatically (little wizard has part of soul of big evil wizard inside him).

We know JKR is a very inventive writer, so I'm sure she can write herself out of this (and the whole neither can live while the other survives bizarreness) quite easily.I think your misinterpreted the meaning of that, as Ms. Rowling already explained to us through Dumbledore. What he transferred into Harry, was his ability to speak snakes, and others, which you could re-read in CoS after Harry destroyed the Diary Horcrux.
And in any case you would need to cast the spell to create a Horcrux, it is deliberally done. Although I know we went through this already, as well as Mickella and others, have all explained more than once in different post in the same editorials as well as more than once in different Burrow editorials, so for more information on this you would have to check this out (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=65870&page=8&pp=20) as well as my posts after that, cnocerning Harry being a Horcrux. Also Dumbledore ahs already explained to us the meaning of the prophecy, why look any further?

Well yes, but then again, and I've said this before (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=2937272&postcount=1335), in CoS Dumbledore and Harry have a conversation:
Dumbledore: "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure..."
Harry: "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?"
Dumbledore: "It certainly seems so."

And I think that quote's very significant, because it explains why the link between Lord V and Harry is so strong, it sets up the whole Horcrux idea for the future, and it is very strong dramatically (little wizard has part of soul of big evil wizard inside him).

We know JKR is a very inventive writer, so I'm sure she can write herself out of this (and the whole neither can live while the other survives bizarreness) quite easily.

that is a really good point but i think that what dumbledore ment by this was the fact that harry can talk to snakes and the fact that harry can see voldemorts thoughts and and feel his feelings. i really dont think that it has anything to do with harry being a horcrux, but hey, i could be wrong... it wouldnt be the first time...lol. i just really dont think its possible for voldemort's soul to be inside harry when in ootp he couldnt even possess him long enough to convince dumbledore to kill harry in order to rid the world of voldemort.....not that dumbledore would have dont that!!! the point is he couldnt possess harry so his soul cant possess him either.

Kudos for the work you did on examining the prophesy. I also like your "in essence divided" explanation. It's the first one I've read that made me think "of course, that makes perfect sense". Now, please allow me to add my two cents:


1. Harry is not a horcrux. JKR has already disproven this idea in the interview with Emerson. She said Harry has to destroy the remaining horcuxes, then destroy Voldemort. In other words, he can't destroy a horcrux and kill Voldy at the same time, which is what would have to happen if Harry is a horcrux.

2. Harry's scar is not a horcrux. Voldy didn't create the scar when he tried to kill Harry. He created an open wound, which some time later scarred over. (Re-read the very first description of Harry in SS, and Hagrid's tale of finding baby Harry in POA, both refer to wounds, not scars.) Since the scar didn't even exist at the time of the attack, it cannot be a horcrux.

I disagree, I think that Harry is a Horcux. Your arguement was very good but you have missed tow important points,

1. Harry and Voldy's wands are brother's so therefore dualing is useless. They connect and make echos come out which scare Voldy (this is helpful to Harry) but this is not usefull in a dula to the death. I personally think that Harry and Voldy are going to have to fight with swords.

2. In Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 13 The Very Secret Dariy, British edition when HArry see the name T.M .Riddle He rembers him as a long lost childhood friend who he has forgoten! We know that Harry and Tom never had any friend's as childern.
So how does Harry have this feeling. I think because of the rare event of two people surviveing the killing curse Voldy did unfortnatly create a Horcux. We know he was planning to create one that evening. So it is likely that as he said the words for the killing curse, his mind had moved on the perparing the spell for the Horcux!
He did not exspect to be blasted backwards thus destorying the house and ripeing his body from him. Harry has his mother proction and a lighting bolt scar which is the symbol of there connect.
IN GOF where the fake professor Moody is using the mind control forgiveable curse on Harry when in his head he hear a small voice whihc tells him not to do what the curse is telling him. I think this is the part of Voldy's soul in Harry which use to talk to him as a bady.

I think that it is because of Harry being a horcux that he can speak to sankes and have the destiny he has . I think the power Voldy does not have is the love Harry got from his parents at a young age (which Voldy did not get) that has stayed with him and grown stronger each book.
Somehow I think that it is right that Harry should die at the end of book seven as Sirus is dead, his Parents are dead and his mentor is dead . Harry has very little to live for after the battle and somehow I can not picture Harry living after the battle.
He would not like all the extar fame he would get. He would want a quiet life which he would not get if he lived.

I

I think that it is because of Harry being a horcux that he can speak to sankes and have the destiny he has . I think the power Voldy does not have is the love Harry got from his parents at a young age (which Voldy did not get) that has stayed with him and grown stronger each book.
Somehow I think that it is right that Harry should die at the end of book seven as Sirus is dead, his Parents are dead and his mentor is dead . Harry has very little to live for after the battle and somehow I can not picture Harry living after the battle.
He would not like all the extar fame he would get. He would want a quiet life which he would not get if he lived.

Wouldn't you think that Harry would want a normal life, like the one he had for a few short weeks at the end of HBP with Ginny?

I disagree, I think that Harry is a Horcux. Your arguement was very good but you have missed tow important points,

1. Harry and Voldy's wands are brother's so therefore dualing is useless. They connect and make echos come out which scare Voldy (this is helpful to Harry) but this is not usefull in a dula to the death. I personally think that Harry and Voldy are going to have to fight with swords.That doesn't seem to have anything to do with Harry being a Horcrux. I never mentioned their wands. I agree that Harry will probably have to find another way other than straight dueling to defeat Voldemort, but there's no way to know for sure. But that doesn't mean Harry is a Horcrux, so I'm not sure what your point is. But if he IS a Horcrux, it won't be swords - how would he kill himself with a sword and THEN kill Voldemort?

2. In Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 13 The Very Secret Dariy, British edition when HArry see the name T.M .Riddle He rembers him as a long lost childhood friend who he has forgoten! We know that Harry and Tom never had any friend's as childern.
So how does Harry have this feeling. I think because of the rare event of two people surviveing the killing curse Voldy did unfortnatly create a Horcux. We know he was planning to create one that evening. So it is likely that as he said the words for the killing curse, his mind had moved on the perparing the spell for the Horcux!
He did not exspect to be blasted backwards thus destorying the house and ripeing his body from him. Harry has his mother proction and a lighting bolt scar which is the symbol of there connect.
IN GOF where the fake professor Moody is using the mind control forgiveable curse on Harry when in his head he hear a small voice whihc tells him not to do what the curse is telling him. I think this is the part of Voldy's soul in Harry which use to talk to him as a bady. I'm not really sure what the name being familiar has to do with whether or not it is possible for a Hocrux to be made accidentally. As I said, I don't think it is possible to be done by accident. But I think that the voice that told Harry to fight the Imperius curse is a part of himself. More like his conscience is asking him why he should follow these outside instructions. I think it is more because Harry has a stronger will and has been through more than the others (he has fought Dark Magic many times) that he could fight it off.

Somehow I think that it is right that Harry should die at the end of book seven as Sirus is dead, his Parents are dead and his mentor is dead . Harry has very little to live for after the battle and somehow I can not picture Harry living after the battle. Although it might be right that Harry dies at the end to rejoin his parents, Sirius, and Dumbledore (and I think it is as likely that he lives as dies), I would not say that he would have little to live for after defeating Voldemort. He has friends he loves who love him. And that is important in life and can be worth living for.

I disagree, I think that Harry is a Horcux. Your arguement was very good but you have missed tow important points,

1. Harry and Voldy's wands are brother's so therefore dualing is useless. They connect and make echos come out which scare Voldy (this is helpful to Harry) but this is not usefull in a dula to the death. I personally think that Harry and Voldy are going to have to fight with swords.

2. In Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 13 The Very Secret Dariy, British edition when HArry see the name T.M .Riddle He rembers him as a long lost childhood friend who he has forgoten! We know that Harry and Tom never had any friend's as childern.
So how does Harry have this feeling. I think because of the rare event of two people surviveing the killing curse Voldy did unfortnatly create a Horcux. We know he was planning to create one that evening. So it is likely that as he said the words for the killing curse, his mind had moved on the perparing the spell for the Horcux!
He did not exspect to be blasted backwards thus destorying the house and ripeing his body from him. Harry has his mother proction and a lighting bolt scar which is the symbol of there connect.
IN GOF where the fake professor Moody is using the mind control forgiveable curse on Harry when in his head he hear a small voice whihc tells him not to do what the curse is telling him. I think this is the part of Voldy's soul in Harry which use to talk to him as a bady.

I think that it is because of Harry being a horcux that he can speak to sankes and have the destiny he has . I think the power Voldy does not have is the love Harry got from his parents at a young age (which Voldy did not get) that has stayed with him and grown stronger each book.
Somehow I think that it is right that Harry should die at the end of book seven as Sirus is dead, his Parents are dead and his mentor is dead . Harry has very little to live for after the battle and somehow I can not picture Harry living after the battle.
He would not like all the extar fame he would get. He would want a quiet life which he would not get if he lived.

thats a good argument but i disagree with voldemort being the one that was telling harry to not do what moody was saying. i think it was harry's own strength and endurance that made him able to fight this curse. i also think the fact that he is hard headed and strong willed that made him able to resist it. harry is a powerful wizard with or without voldemort's added powers like the parseltoung thing which was given to harry by mistake.

Great editorial. I only had time to briefly skim through, but I agree that Harry is not a Horcrux. Don't forget that Voldemort used up one of his soul pieces when he tried to kill Harry (why he didn't die). But also, simply the fact that Dumbledore said that Harry is a "pure soul" which implies that his soul is not only completely intact but untainted. To me, this plus the fact that Voldemort felt such agonizing pain when he attempted to possess Harry, indicates that there is no way that Voldemort could have placed a piece of himself inside baby Harry.

I disagree, I think that Harry is a Horcux. Your arguement was very good but you have missed tow important points,

1. Harry and Voldy's wands are brother's so therefore dualing is useless. They connect and make echos come out which scare Voldy (this is helpful to Harry) but this is not usefull in a dula to the death. I personally think that Harry and Voldy are going to have to fight with swords.
You forget before the spells connected in mid air, Voldemort did Curcio and Impurious (?) Curses on him. They will duel with wands because Voldemort will want it that way.

2. In Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 13 The Very Secret Dariy, British edition when HArry see the name T.M .Riddle He rembers him as a long lost childhood friend who he has forgoten! We know that Harry and Tom never had any friend's as childern.
This is the diary at work, the true horcrux. There is no denying Tom is a psychopath. Psychopaths make people believe they are someone's best friend, when all along they are using the person to get what they want. This is Harry's feeling about the diary. Tom is using Harry to make him believe a friend of his opened the Chamber and killed Myrtle.

I think that it is because of Harry being a horcux that he can speak to sankes and have the destiny he has . I think the power Voldy does not have is the love Harry got from his parents at a young age (which Voldy did not get) that has stayed with him and grown stronger each book.
Dumbledore said himself powers were transferred and not because of Harry being a Horcrux. Harry can speak Parselmouth because Voldemort can speak Parselmouth. What the Sorting Hat saw in Harry's head were some of the things found in Tom's head--a need to prove oneself, resourceful, parselmouth, a need to break rules for one's own purpose.

My feeling is, if Harry was a horcrux, he would have placed himself in Slytherin and would be having a split personality problem with two souls trying to control one body.

Somehow I think that it is right that Harry should die at the end of book seven as Sirus is dead, his Parents are dead and his mentor is dead . Harry has very little to live for after the battle and somehow I can not picture Harry living after the battle.
He would not like all the extar fame he would get. He would want a quiet life which he would not get if he lived.
You are forgetting this is a children's book. It isn't right for Harry to die at all. You may be thinking the movie "Titanic" where Leonardo died at the end of the movie. That was an adult movie and had more impact with him dying, while she lived.

Great editorial. I only had time to briefly skim through, but I agree that Harry is not a Horcrux. Don't forget that Voldemort used up one of his soul pieces when he tried to kill Harry (why he didn't die). But also, simply the fact that Dumbledore said that Harry is a "pure soul" which implies that his soul is not only completely intact but untainted. To me, this plus the fact that Voldemort felt such agonizing pain when he attempted to possess Harry, indicates that there is no way that Voldemort could have placed a piece of himself inside baby Harry.

I agree with your thinking about Harry not being a horcrux , but pure - I am not so sure - human. Harry is capable of feeling "bad thoughts " and actions he just feels regret which LV incapable of.

I think you are mistaken about a soul piece bering used up - they can't be used up , they can only be destroyed on purpose. DD tells Harry that the piece of soul that was LV was left bodiless - LV says so in GoF something to the effect that he wasripped from his bosy, but he was still alive. Each body that LV uses can be destroyed but the soul can't be until all the horcruxes are destroyed.. I likened it to a hot air ballon being held down by six ropes. as long as there is one rope holding down the ballon, it can fly away, but when the last rope is severed the ballon can fly off and be destroyed by putting a hole in the canapy that houses the hot air

bryanweasley

I agree that Harry will not die at the end of seven- It definitely would be sending a really poor message that there is no way to conquer evil so why bother - I don;t think that that is JK's intent. That is not to say that she would be so soppy as to eliminate all evil at the end. I think the message will ultimately be that there must be "constant vigilence" to guard against it.

I also didn't like the idea of Harry the Horcrux theory. It made me mad that people kept thinking and believing that it were true. Finally a reasonable well thought out contradiction to the ridiculous theory. Well done!

Thank you RedSparks for an interesting read. I'd never even considered Harry to be a Horcrux. Your editorial seemed well thought out and was a pretty quick read for the length.

There is no denying Tom is a psychopath. Psychopaths make people believe they are someone's best friend, when all along they are using the person to get what they want. This is Harry's feeling about the diary. Tom is using Harry to make him believe a friend of his opened the Chamber and killed Myrtle.

While I agree Tom is a psychopath, I think that concept is probably a little tough for a children's book. So if Harry thinks the name sounds familiar, like a childhood friend, it's probably becasue something of Voldemort is transferred to him, whether you believe it to be powers or a bit of soul.

I am so glad someone earlier pointed out the fact that Voldemort used the Cruciatius curse on Harry. This shows that just because their wands cannot "duel", go against each other at the same time, it does not mean that one cannot beat the other. If Harry said a spell before Voldemort, it would work.

Good editorial!! I am not a believer of the Harry-as-a-Horcrux theory, and you have enlisted some good points that help in its rebuttal.
However, I think you are taking the prophecy far more seriously than it actually is....kind of making the same mistake Voldemort did. The chapter Horcruxes in HBP made one thing lucidly clear : The prophecy does NOT dictate how events will pan out!! Just because it says so, Harry CANNOT be the only wizard who can kill Voldemort!! If any other wizard cast an Avada Kedavara on Voldemort, he will be reduced to the very same Vapormort condition he was pre-PS/SS. It is only because Voldemort himself decided to respect the contents of the prophecy that it has gained importance as the most important piece of prediction in Potterverse. It is NOT Harry's destiny to get rid of the evil Lord Voldemort ; it is his conscious choice!

However, I think you are taking the prophecy far more seriously than it actually is....kind of making the same mistake Voldemort did. The chapter Horcruxes in HBP made one thing lucidly clear : The prophecy does NOT dictate how events will pan out!! Just because it says so, Harry CANNOT be the only wizard who can kill Voldemort!! If any other wizard cast an Avada Kedavara on Voldemort, he will be reduced to the very same Vapormort condition he was pre-PS/SS. It is only because Voldemort himself decided to respect the contents of the prophecy that it has gained importance as the most important piece of prediction in Potterverse. It is NOT Harry's destiny to get rid of the evil Lord Voldemort ; it is his conscious choice!Actually, in the next to last paragraph of the editorial, I said pretty much exactly that:
But Dumbledore knows (as we learn at the end of chapter twenty-three, pages 509-512) that the events Voldemort set in motion by killing James and Lily and marking Harry as an equal ensured that the prophecy came true. It will happen as told. Not because it is fated, but because Voldemort has chosen to put so much stock into the prophecy. And because Harry, prophecy or no, will choose to destroy Voldemort for all of his atrocities. Dumbledore knows that “one will die at the hands of the other, for neither shall live while the other survives” because he knows Harry and Voldemort. What I was saying was that it is NOT FATED - but it is going to play out that way because Voldemort set it into motion and Harry has decided to go into battle with his head held high.

i didn't read everyone's post so i dont know if this question is already answered but
i think its reasonable, after reading half blood prince, i came to the same conclusion. that harry might be a horcrux. (i was happy to see someone else thought of it too) how else would voldemort have stayed alive after that night he gave harry potter that scar? i suppose he couldve kept himself alive with the other horcruxes but idk. and harry is the only last horcrux that i could think of. but hopefully this is not true, and jk rowling comes up with another wonderful book, without harry dying. i don't know, but it is just a reasonable possibility.

originally posted by trainwreck
i didn't read everyone's post so i dont know if this question is already answered but
i think its reasonable, after reading half blood prince, i came to the same conclusion. that harry might be a horcrux. (i was happy to see someone else thought of it too) how else would voldemort have stayed alive after that night he gave harry potter that scar? i suppose he couldve kept himself alive with the other horcruxes but idk. and harry is the only last horcrux that i could think of. but hopefully this is not true, and jk rowling comes up with another wonderful book, without harry dying. i don't know, but it is just a reasonable possibility.

You should have read the previous post, but hey sometimes I can't bother to go through them all. But in any case,read this! (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=65870&page=8&pp=20)

I loved the editorial!!

At first - i was against the "Harrry the Horcrux" theory...but there was one element that made me change my mind:

JKR leaves little clues in odd places in her novels. In OotP, after Harry saw inside the Nagini - Ginny reminds Harry that she was possessed by Voldemort - and she couldn't remember long stretches of time etc. Harry had full consciousness of moments inside V's mind. Also - when Voldemort was attacking Avery in OotP, Harry was fully conscious within his vision - even looking into the mirror and seeing Voldemort staring back...then, I thought back to CoS - where Riddle's soul - acting independently was in the diary - which was a Horcrux.

The third thing is: Harry's wand. He and Voldemort have wands which share the same Phoenix's feather as the magical substance within them. In the first book, Ollivander states, "The Wand chooses the wizard." - might this not also be evidence of Harry and Voldemort sharing more than similar backgrounds? Possibly the wand was 'recognizing' the little piece of Voldemort in Harry -

after all, In HBP, Dumbledore says that he is so powerfully magical that the boat to the Horcrux won't notice that Harry is aboard...so in the beginining of Harry's magical life - perhaps the wand was seeing the part of Harry that belonged to the second most powerful wizard of all time?

I loved the editorial!!

At first - i was against the "Harrry the Horcrux" theory...but there was one element that made me change my mind:

JKR leaves little clues in odd places in her novels. In OotP, after Harry saw inside the Nagini - Ginny reminds Harry that she was possessed by Voldemort - and she couldn't remember long stretches of time etc. Harry had full consciousness of moments inside V's mind. Also - when Voldemort was attacking Avery in OotP, Harry was fully conscious within his vision - even looking into the mirror and seeing Voldemort staring back...then, I thought back to CoS - where Riddle's soul - acting independently was in the diary - which was a Horcrux.

The third thing is: Harry's wand. He and Voldemort have wands which share the same Phoenix's feather as the magical substance within them. In the first book, Ollivander states, "The Wand chooses the wizard." - might this not also be evidence of Harry and Voldemort sharing more than similar backgrounds? Possibly the wand was 'recognizing' the little piece of Voldemort in Harry -

after all, In HBP, Dumbledore says that he is so powerfully magical that the boat to the Horcrux won't notice that Harry is aboard...so in the beginining of Harry's magical life - perhaps the wand was seeing the part of Harry that belonged to the second most powerful wizard of all time?


I wish that this editorial didn't change your mind. To me I'm very surprised. Please check out one of my posts (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=65870&page=8&pp=20)

Also in HBP Dumbledore said that he was a powerful wizard and that because Harry was underage he would not count as he was not a fully grown wizard and that Voldemort underestimated the young. However I like how you made the comparision to Voldemort and Harry. Dumbledore also already explained why Harry was able to see into Voldemort thoughts and his emotions, because of the failed cursed that linked them.

but isn't jk rowling the type of writer that surprises us with new concepts that might make this all make sense? i dont know, i just don't want this particular theory to lead to harry's death. i'd rather him die (if he must :() another way.

Quoting the author:
There are some problems with these theories, however. The first is that I think Nagini truly is a Horcrux. Dumbledore has a reason to suspect as much. In OotP, after Harry had the dream in which Nagini attacks Arthur Weasley, Dumbledore consults one of his silver devices. A smoky serpent’s head grew up out of the device and when Dumbledore says, “but in essence divided,” the smoky snake divides into two serpents (OotP, pg. 470). Because Nagini was a Horcrux and Lord Voldemort was possessing her at the time (he definitely was, for that is how he realized that Harry could see what he was up to sometimes and that he could manipulate the link to lure him to the Ministry), there were two parts of his soul residing in the snake that were, in essence, divided. I think this may also be evidence that Harry is not a Horcrux. Otherwise, since Harry was there, too, the serpent would have divided into three as three fragments of soul would have been there.

This is brilliant. I never would have thought of this. This is probably the most compelling argument that Harry is not a horcrux.
nice editorial

This was an amazing editorial!!!

When I first read the title, it suddenly occured to me that, if neither Harry nor Voldemort can live while the other survives, then neither of them can die (for to die one must be alive). This is completely mind-boggling and probably doesn't have much to do with the editorial, but I felt it was worth mentioning.

Another problematic theory is that it is possible that Harry became a Horcrux in the first place. Horcruxes, as they are described by Slughorn, appear to be created by a deliberate act. He says that they require and act of murder and a spell. Voldemort was reduced to “less than spirit, less than the merest ghost” after the curse rebounded and was in no shape to cast a spell (HBP, pg. 497). He could not have deliberately cast a spell and created a Horcrux at that moment. Plus, the murder upon which he was anchoring his Horcrux spell was unsuccessful – the child lived. No act of supreme evil, no spell: therefore no Horcrux.

I am on the fence as to whether or not Harry/Harry's scar could be a Horcrux. Your logic here makes absolute perfect sense... assuming that the spell used to create the Horcrux must be delivered AFTER the "doomed" person, so to speak, has been murdered.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot recall anyone ever saying that the Horcrux spell is said after the murder takes place. What if the spell is spoken BEFORE the murder? What if the order goes: The Horcrux spell, the killing spell, then whatever object that the wand touches or is pointed at next becomes the Horcrux?

I can see a scenario here (and obviously, it's just speculation... as is everything until Book 7 comes out): Voldemort kills Lily, turns to innocent little Harry, says, "Yada-yada-With-This-Curse-I'll-Make-A-Horcrux-Avada-Kadavra!!" But lo and behold, it BACKFIRES, killing Voldie's physical body (but not killing Voldie, since his soul is hidden in those other Horcruxes.). His wand goes flying, or is still aimed at Harry... and Harry or his scar becomes a Horcrux.

That'd be a real kick in the pants to Voldemort if it was the 'death' of his own physical body that inadvertantly created a Horcrux in Harry... and I believe Voldemort's physical self had to have 'died' in some fashion, because we have been told time and again that Harry is the only one known to have survive AK. Since we also know that the spell rebounded upon Voldemort full-force, which is what destroyed him (sort of), this is a logical conclusion. If it had rebounded on him and NOT killed his physical self 1) he wouldn't have had to inhabit the bodies of anything else until Wormtail brought him back and 2) Harry wouldn't have been the only AK survivor.

Kind of makes you wonder what happened to Voldie's body after all this occured. Or have we already been told and I've forgotten?

I know this is just another of those far-out theories that I read on these messgae boards and think to myself, "Yeah right"... but then, halfway through each of the books, if you'd told me any of the twists yet to come, I would have thought "Yeah right" about those too...

Originally posted by DessyD
I am on the fence as to whether or not Harry/Harry's scar could be a Horcrux. Your logic here makes absolute perfect sense... assuming that the spell used to create the Horcrux must be delivered AFTER the "doomed" person, so to speak, has been murdered.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot recall anyone ever saying that the Horcrux spell is said after the murder takes place. What if the spell is spoken BEFORE the murder? What if the order goes: The Horcrux spell, the killing spell, then whatever object that the wand touches or is pointed at next becomes the Horcrux?

I can see a scenario here (and obviously, it's just speculation... as is everything until Book 7 comes out): Voldemort kills Lily, turns to innocent little Harry, says, "Yada-yada-With-This-Curse-I'll-Make-A-Horcrux-Avada-Kadavra!!" But lo and behold, it BACKFIRES, killing Voldie's physical body (but not killing Voldie, since his soul is hidden in those other Horcruxes.). His wand goes flying, or is still aimed at Harry... and Harry or his scar becomes a Horcrux.

That'd be a real kick in the pants to Voldemort if it was the 'death' of his own physical body that inadvertantly created a Horcrux in Harry... and I believe Voldemort's physical self had to have 'died' in some fashion, because we have been told time and again that Harry is the only one known to have survive AK. Since we also know that the spell rebounded upon Voldemort full-force, which is what destroyed him (sort of), this is a logical conclusion. If it had rebounded on him and NOT killed his physical self 1) he wouldn't have had to inhabit the bodies of anything else until Wormtail brought him back and 2) Harry wouldn't have been the only AK survivor.

Kind of makes you wonder what happened to Voldie's body after all this occured. Or have we already been told and I've forgotten?

I know this is just another of those far-out theories that I read on these messgae boards and think to myself, "Yeah right"... but then, halfway through each of the books, if you'd told me any of the twists yet to come, I would have thought "Yeah right" about those too...

Ok, first all, I agree, that would be a far out theory that I don't even think is possible. I very much doubt that Harry's scar is a Horcrux. As I have said before in other posts, the scar is a part of Harry, it doesn't act on it's own, it's attached to Harry and if it is a Horcrux so is Harry. I very much doubt that Harry is a Horcrux. Now, what gives us the impression that the spell is said after the murder, is the what we have derived from Dumbledore and Slughorn. Dumbledore said that Voldemort makes his Horcruxes after significant deaths. eg. his father and grandparents. Slughorn also said that to create a Horcrux you need to create murder right? and that killing rips the soul apart. So therefore you need to create a murder first, the spell. Imagine if you have never killed before and for whatever reason you decide to kill someone, would you cast the spell first while you soul is whole, then kill? You wouldn't have made a Horcrux. So you see why the spell has to be made the murder.

i dont know if everyone forgot this or what but in the final battle between harry and voldermort, there will be no wands (we found out this all the way back in gof "They will not work properly against each other," said Dumbledore. "If however, the owners of the wands force the wands to do battle...a very rare effect will take place. One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed-in reverse. The most recent first... and then those which preceded it..." (page 697, U.S.)

therefore it has to be either wandless magic harry learns in his seventh year or by himself or it will be a fight of some other sort because even if harry uses avada kedavra he would hav to catch voldermort off guard which i dont think will happen unless he starts telling the world how powerful he is which doent seem right

I think that 'brother wand effect' or whatever is when spells from the wands cross. If Harry had his wand in his hand but didn't use it, Voldemort could still kill him with a spell.

yes this is true but why wouldn't he use his wand if they are fighting each other thats why i said harry would have to catch voldermort off guard or vise versa

yes this is true but why wouldn't he use his wand if they are fighting each other thats why i said harry would have to catch voldermort off guard or vise versa
Or it could be something which 'vanquishes' Voldemort without killing him - like taking away all his powers, or leaving him alive but soulless (a fate worse than death) or maybe pushing him through the veil in the Department of Mysteries. Maybe I should start a new thread - how would you like to see Voldemort die?

alot of people seem to be jumping on the fact that the prophecy doesnt HAVE to happen. this is true but the fact of the matter is voldemort is MAKING it happen. the prophecy will come true because neither harry or voldemort will turn away. they dont see it as something that might or might not happen. they see it as truth...or at least voldemort does.

if you start that thred let me know

I enjoyed the editorial but in my opinion harry is definitely a horcrux.

Firstly, the fact that only two snakes came out of dumbledores thing doesn't mean for a second that it is only the snake and voldemort that it is referring to. I think there was three parts of voldemorts soul shown there. If you remember the smoke started out as a single serpent, V. horcrux Nagini, it was only after he said "in essence divided" that it divided into two seperate snakes. The two splitting represents both harry and voldemort, and Nagini is also being displayed at the same time. If J.k. had portrayed three it would have made her thoughts too obvious.

Secondly, about "Neither can live while the other survives." Even though this was your main argument as to why harry isnt a horcrux, it makes more sense to me that this is indeed why harry is a horcrux. Why exactly is it that neither can live while the other survives? What is the link that forces only these two together? The horcrux of course. I also think that Dumbledore knows this as well, but he probably has an excellent reason why he hasnt told harry. Maybe its simply something that harry has to find out for himself. After all, it is a big weight to know that you might have to sacrifice yourself in order to save everyone else.

Lastly, harry's scar hurts when he is feeling a powerful emotion from voldemort. But feelings don't come from the mind, they come from the soul, at least in my opinion, and this seems to me further proof that harry is a horcrux. Not too mention that he is seeing all of his visions in first person perspective, and that at the end of the phoenix he was controlling harry just as he controlled nagini.

I enjoyed the editorial but in my opinion harry is definitely a horcrux.

Firstly, the fact that only two snakes came out of dumbledores thing doesn't mean for a second that it is only the snake and voldemort that it is referring to. I think there was three parts of voldemorts soul shown there. If you remember the smoke started out as a single serpent, V. horcrux Nagini, it was only after he said "in essence divided" that it divided into two seperate snakes. The two splitting represents both harry and voldemort, and Nagini is also being displayed at the same time. If J.k. had portrayed three it would have made her thoughts too obvious.

Secondly, about "Neither can live while the other survives." Even though this was your main argument as to why harry isnt a horcrux, it makes more sense to me that this is indeed why harry is a horcrux. Why exactly is it that neither can live while the other survives? What is the link that forces only these two together? The horcrux of course. I also think that Dumbledore knows this as well, but he probably has an excellent reason why he hasnt told harry. Maybe its simply something that harry has to find out for himself. After all, it is a big weight to know that you might have to sacrifice yourself in order to save everyone else.

Lastly, harry's scar hurts when he is feeling a powerful emotion from voldemort. But feelings don't come from the mind, they come from the soul, at least in my opinion, and this seems to me further proof that harry is a horcrux. Not too mention that he is seeing all of his visions in first person perspective, and that at the end of the phoenix he was controlling harry just as he controlled nagini.
I know it's been discussed before, I just can't remember where, but the "neither one can live while the other survives," can refer to the idea that neither Harry or Voldemort can be happy or live a "normal" life while they are both alive. Both Harry and Voldemort are consumed with each other.(Harry because of his parents and Voldemort because Harry brought his downfall.) I think it's a logical explanation.
I think that Dumbledore would have told Harry he is a horcrux. After holding out on telling Harry the prophecy and all the damage it caused. i.e. Sirius's death. Dumbledore told Harry everything he could in HBP.

I dont think that it is referring to a happy or normal life because the prophecy says :"either must DIE at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives"

thanks for the editorial, i was glad to see your opinion on harry being a horcrux! guys can u plz tel me tho, do you think that dementors could destroy a horcrux? As they can kiss & remove the soul from a person, do you think that would be a suitable way of destroying one?

We know that dementors have the power to remove a soul, there maybe away to remove a horcrux in a similar way with a living body

Ok, first off, hey guys, I'm new here - new to all hp fan sites and fairly new at discussing my hp ideas with anyone. So, pardon me if these questions have been asked and answered before - they most probably have been! I'd appreciate it if one of you could direct me to the appropriate answers in that case!

On to the question. Let me first list the horcruxes as I understand:
1) Riddle's diary - certain - horcrux destroyed
2) Slytherin's ring - certain - horcrux destroyed
3) Slytherin's Locket - almost certain - don't know if it has been destroyed
4) Hufflepuff's cup - possible - probably hasn't been destroyed
5) Nagini - Very likely - horcrux not yet destroyed
6) Gryffindor/Ravenclaw's relic - may be - if so, probably hasn't been destroyed

The seventh piece is Voldemort himself and he is yet to be destroyed. Now, here are the questions/problems I have with the horcruxes' destruction and the numbers:

What happened to Voldemort at Godric's Hallow? According to JKR, if the body is destroyed, the wizard would not die, “for part of the soul remains earthbound and unchanged” (HBP, pg. 497). Voldemort's body was destroyed when the killing curse rebounded. What about the piece of soul he had within him at that point? Was it destroyed? JKR doesn't say outright that if someone casts Avada Kedavra on you and you have split your soul, the killing curse only destroys your body and leaves the part of your soul you are carrying in your body intact. She only says "part of the soul" - I interpret this as the part preserved in the horcrux(es) - is "earthbound and unchanged". Ergo, the part of the soul in the body is destroyed. Afterall, the killing curse is supposed to destroy body and soul, isn't it? I've always thought so - hence no way of returning back from the killing curse has been my take on it. So if Voldemort indeed lost a piece of his soul at Godric's Hollow, how was he alive? In other words, how are the horcruxes affected when the piece of soul in their creator is destroyed (either by killing curse or by, say, Dementor's kiss)? Does one of the pieces free itself from its horcrux? If that is the case, then does the number of horcruxes that need to be destroyed go down by one? Did Harry only ever have 5 horcruxes to contend with? After all, that first victory over Voldemort has to count for something, eh? But the consequence of this line of argument would also be that Voldemort could likely have created another horcrux that we don't know about - I mean other than Nagini.

Now, onto something else. The big question seems to be what is the last horcrux, assuming the first five in the list is correct. I believe the clue for the sixth horcrux should come from the scene in Godric's Hollow. If Voldemort indeed meant to create the sixth Horcrux after killing Harry, he most likely carried the to-be-sixth-Horcrux with him at that time. With the loss of his corporeal body, what happened to it? Was it recovered by somebody? This brings us to the question - who were all there at Godric's Hollow on that ill-fated Halloween? JKR seems to have evaded an answer in her interview with Emerson and Melissa. I'm just starting out on digging clues from re-reading. I'm sure there are tons of you who are absolute experts in the canon compared to me. Do you have any clues here?

I guess I've asked enough questions for now. Cheers guys and have a nice day!

I think i know how a horcrux can be killed. Maybe Voldemort got the dementors for a reason. Since horcruxes are essentially a split of a soul, maybe dementors are the only creatures alive to destroy a Horcrux. He got the dememtors so there was no possible way to detroy the horcrux.

GREAT editorial btw.

Ok, first off, hey guys, I'm new here - new to all hp fan sites and fairly new at discussing my hp ideas with anyone. So, pardon me if these questions have been asked and answered before - they most probably have been! I'd appreciate it if one of you could direct me to the appropriate answers in that case!

On to the question. Let me first list the horcruxes as I understand:
1) Riddle's diary - certain - horcrux destroyed
2) Slytherin's ring - certain - horcrux destroyed
3) Slytherin's Locket - almost certain - don't know if it has been destroyed
4) Hufflepuff's cup - possible - probably hasn't been destroyed
5) Nagini - Very likely - horcrux not yet destroyed
6) Gryffindor/Ravenclaw's relic - may be - if so, probably hasn't been destroyed

The seventh piece is Voldemort himself and he is yet to be destroyed. Now, here are the questions/problems I have with the horcruxes' destruction and the numbers:

What happened to Voldemort at Godric's Hallow? According to JKR, if the body is destroyed, the wizard would not die, “for part of the soul remains earthbound and unchanged” (HBP, pg. 497). Voldemort's body was destroyed when the killing curse rebounded. What about the piece of soul he had within him at that point? Was it destroyed? JKR doesn't say outright that if someone casts Avada Kedavra on you and you have split your soul, the killing curse only destroys your body and leaves the part of your soul you are carrying in your body intact. She only says "part of the soul" - I interpret this as the part preserved in the horcrux(es) - is "earthbound and unchanged". Ergo, the part of the soul in the body is destroyed. Afterall, the killing curse is supposed to destroy body and soul, isn't it? I've always thought so - hence no way of returning back from the killing curse has been my take on it. So if Voldemort indeed lost a piece of his soul at Godric's Hollow, how was he alive? In other words, how are the horcruxes affected when the piece of soul in their creator is destroyed (either by killing curse or by, say, Dementor's kiss)? Does one of the pieces free itself from its horcrux? If that is the case, then does the number of horcruxes that need to be destroyed go down by one? Did Harry only ever have 5 horcruxes to contend with? After all, that first victory over Voldemort has to count for something, eh? But the consequence of this line of argument would also be that Voldemort could likely have created another horcrux that we don't know about - I mean other than Nagini.

Now, onto something else. The big question seems to be what is the last horcrux, assuming the first five in the list is correct. I believe the clue for the sixth horcrux should come from the scene in Godric's Hollow. If Voldemort indeed meant to create the sixth Horcrux after killing Harry, he most likely carried the to-be-sixth-Horcrux with him at that time. With the loss of his corporeal body, what happened to it? Was it recovered by somebody? This brings us to the question - who were all there at Godric's Hollow on that ill-fated Halloween? JKR seems to have evaded an answer in her interview with Emerson and Melissa. I'm just starting out on digging clues from re-reading. I'm sure there are tons of you who are absolute experts in the canon compared to me. Do you have any clues here?

I guess I've asked enough questions for now. Cheers guys and have a nice day!
i was thinking could ginny be the last horcrux cuz in chamber of secrets it says somthing about pouring voldermort's soul into ginny what if it never left fully

I think i know how a horcrux can be killed. Maybe Voldemort got the dementors for a reason. Since horcruxes are essentially a split of a soul, maybe dementors are the only creatures alive to destroy a Horcrux. He got the dememtors so there was no possible way to detroy the horcrux.

GREAT editorial btw.
I think you have a good idea here.I think it's possible the Dementors could destroy Horcuxes. But how then did Dumbledore destroy the Horcrux in Gaunt's ring? Harry didn't use a Dementor to destroty Riddle's diary. I assume there are different ways to destroy them, maybe it depends on the horcrux itself.

i was jusst wondering when i was reading your editorial that what if Harry reduced Voldermort to the spirit but then if he were a horcrux, killed himself? then there would be no way for Voldermort to comeback and hence he would die.

just a though i had.

oh and i love the dementor theory and also i thought that if harry were a horcrux then maybe the shape of his scar would be relevant as when Dumbledore destroyed the ring the crack was the same shape as Harrys scar...

I don't believe at all that a corpse can be a horcrux. After all, upon death, the soul leaves the body and resides behind the veil in the department of mysteries. If the soul of a body escapes upon death, it is also logical that a foreign bit of soul would escape (that is, unless you're suggesting that the residence of an alien soul functions differently, but that would be pure speculation).

Nice theory. I've always thought that the "Harry is a horcrux" is far-fetched. This seems reasonable.

great one. infact, all you need to do is read the title. "neither can live while the other survives" you see, harry cannot be a horcrux because then it wud be impossible for harry to kill voldemort. harry wud have to kill voldemort and himself.

Not that i was harry to be a horucrux but what is he is and he has to die to make voldemort finally go away AND remember they weren't sure at first whether the it was harry or neville who was the choosen one..what if in the end it's neville that finishes him off cuz he has to die cuz the horucrux..i dunno just something that came to me when i was reading..i don't know any pages as its been a little while since i read the HBP..i'm going through the last 3 books again right now. Also i wonder if somehow since they used harry's blood to bring him back to life if that could be like using one of the horucrux and maybe harry isn't one anymore..not really sure how it all works but, i hope all in all that harry kicks butt and voldemort dies and harry lives.whatever happens i'm sure JKR has something great planned for the ending.

new idea..well kinda..i haven't read what everyone wrote but, when voldemort went to create the last horcrux in Godric's hollow..did he have it with him or maybe the potters had it in the house..if somehow the spell of making the horcrux went throught maybe it was the sword or soemthing..i think if i remember it was dumbledore who went there and found the potter's murdered..maybe that's how he got *** sword and its in his office and all along it couldn't be harry. i dunno..but its just an idea also.I'm just bored at work..what do i know..lol

:shrug: I agree with you completely the idea that Harry is a horucrux is completely crazy and I do not see how this idea even came into anyone’s mind as the soul has to be put into something deliberately or else ever Death Eater or any wizard that has killed some one would have a hrucrux or two also they just wouldn’t know what it was to protect it.

Originally Posted by learnnew
Ok, first off, hey guys, I'm new here - new to all hp fan sites and fairly new at discussing my hp ideas with anyone. So, pardon me if these questions have been asked and answered before - they most probably have been! I'd appreciate it if one of you could direct me to the appropriate answers in that case!

On to the question. Let me first list the horcruxes as I understand:
1) Riddle's diary - certain - horcrux destroyed
2) Slytherin's ring - certain - horcrux destroyed
3) Slytherin's Locket - almost certain - don't know if it has been destroyed
4) Hufflepuff's cup - possible - probably hasn't been destroyed
5) Nagini - Very likely - horcrux not yet destroyed
6) Gryffindor/Ravenclaw's relic - may be - if so, probably hasn't been destroyed

The seventh piece is Voldemort himself and he is yet to be destroyed. Now, here are the questions/problems I have with the horcruxes' destruction and the numbers:

What happened to Voldemort at Godric's Hallow? According to JKR, if the body is destroyed, the wizard would not die, “for part of the soul remains earthbound and unchanged” (HBP, pg. 497). Voldemort's body was destroyed when the killing curse rebounded. What about the piece of soul he had within him at that point? Was it destroyed? JKR doesn't say outright that if someone casts Avada Kedavra on you and you have split your soul, the killing curse only destroys your body and leaves the part of your soul you are carrying in your body intact. She only says "part of the soul" - I interpret this as the part preserved in the horcrux(es) - is "earthbound and unchanged". Ergo, the part of the soul in the body is destroyed. Afterall, the killing curse is supposed to destroy body and soul, isn't it? I've always thought so - hence no way of returning back from the killing curse has been my take on it. So if Voldemort indeed lost a piece of his soul at Godric's Hollow, how was he alive? In other words, how are the horcruxes affected when the piece of soul in their creator is destroyed (either by killing curse or by, say, Dementor's kiss)? Does one of the pieces free itself from its horcrux? If that is the case, then does the number of horcruxes that need to be destroyed go down by one? Did Harry only ever have 5 horcruxes to contend with? After all, that first victory over Voldemort has to count for something, eh? But the consequence of this line of argument would also be that Voldemort could likely have created another horcrux that we don't know about - I mean other than Nagini.

Now, onto something else. The big question seems to be what is the last horcrux, assuming the first five in the list is correct. I believe the clue for the sixth horcrux should come from the scene in Godric's Hollow. If Voldemort indeed meant to create the sixth Horcrux after killing Harry, he most likely carried the to-be-sixth-Horcrux with him at that time. With the loss of his corporeal body, what happened to it? Was it recovered by somebody? This brings us to the question - who were all there at Godric's Hollow on that ill-fated Halloween? JKR seems to have evaded an answer in her interview with Emerson and Melissa. I'm just starting out on digging clues from re-reading. I'm sure there are tons of you who are absolute experts in the canon compared to me. Do you have any clues here?

I guess I've asked enough questions for now. Cheers guys and have a nice day!

I've often wondered if there were only 6 horcruxes because the last one failed. thank you for stating this. If LV was attempting to use Harry's murder to create to seventh and final horcrux, and the attempted murder failled doesn't it stand to reason that the attempted horcux also failed???

Also I believe that Harry being a horcrux is definately not accurate. People keep repeating that lilly had a choice to live but There has been no reason why LV didn't give James a choice. This maybe for another thread but You would think that it should be the other way around James was pure blood and would have been worth of life whilst lilly was muggle born. Some one said that maybe james' murder was used as the 7th murder and there for there would have been a 7th horcrux.

i've just talked myself around in a circle but i hope you get what i mean.

the two main points
1. Harry is not a horcrux
2. Was james' murder used to create 7th horcux

i think that somebody other than harry kills voldemort because harry's wand is not supposed to work right against voldemort's. i think that harry will just set someone else up to kill voldemort.

harry cant be a horcrux because in order to kill voldemort then hed have to kill himself first and if he killed himself first then hed be dead (duh) and if hes dead he cant kill voldemort and the prphecy says that one or the other has to kill each other and if voldemort survives then the book will suck, you see?

Well written explanation, however I would like to add one thing to your "conundrum." You say that Harry cannot be because: a) if he is then he'd have to die in order to destroy Voldemort... b) If he lives to kill Voldemort, then a piece of his soul would still be alive in Harry. What if Harry finds out that he is the seventh horcrux, then...

Would Harry have to commit the "valiant" act of suicide?

Isn't it possible that Voldemort could also be "killed" or destroyd by diminishing his influence (after the horcruxes are destroyd)? In other words, people would not be afraid of him anymore and would be able to say his name aloud. Isn't it the legend that keeps the heros/bad guys alive?

Thank you! I've always wondered where people came up with the Horcrux-Harry theory. I mean, why would LV make Harry a Horcrux and then try to kill him? Some people say this is because LV doesn't know, that Harry is an accidental Horcrux. You pointed out the same thing I thought; is it really likely that a Horcrux can be made accidentally? Once again, thank you.

As much as I would like Harry not to die, I cannot get the idea out of my head that Harry is a horcrux. In many interviews with JK, she has mentioned "if Harry lives". I’ts like she is setting the grounds for people not be too disappointed if she kills of the main character. Also in the most recent interview (An Evening with Harry, Carrie, and Garp), she expressed that she would invite Harry to dinner to say how sorry she is for the situations she has thrown Harry in. Can she want to apologize to Harry for not giving him the life a young boy deserves? Even after defeating evil? But getting back to the reason why I decided to participate in this forum:
- The prophecy does say “either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives” Can this be interpreted in another way – if Harry is the last Horcrux and he has the “ power to vanquish the Dark Lord” if Voldemort kills Harry (assuming that death will destroy a Horcrux ) he is destroying a part of his soul and therefore Voldemort is if you want to call it “mortal” again. Voldemort alive and Harry dead does fulfill the prophecy, and yet it does not squash the idea that evil can be defeated it. Anyone can now kill him off. JK has never clearly stated that Harry is the one who will deliver the last, ultimate blow. It is implied throughout the books, but it is not certain, just like whether Snape is evil or not. JK is an expert in disguising truths, and I think she is doing it again.


It is also important to note that Harry is a GRYFFINDOR and the possible relics could be Ravenclaw or Gryffindor. It certainly fits the description.


To answer to one post, Lily's death can count has a deliberate death. Voldemort has never stated that he is or isn't aware of Harry being a Horcrux. He was in my opinion going into the Potter's house with the intent to make a Horcrux and by killing Lily and then in the process trying to kill Harry he unintentially may have created the Horcrux. The details of what happened that night are very sketchy.

Well, it is good to see an editorial against Harry being a Horcrux. But the arguments used are weak for the most part and the logic at times faulty.
There is far better evidence for Harry not being a Horcrux right out of the books. Practically all of these arguments could be easily torn apart.

Also I believe that Harry being a horcrux is definately not accurate. People keep repeating that lilly had a choice to live but There has been no reason why LV didn't give James a choice.

Yes there is. JKR said as much in the mugglenet/leaky interview. She said it was Lily's death that protected HArry because Lily was given a choice and didn't have to die. James wasn't given the same choice so his death did nothing to protect HArry. However, either death could have been used to make a Horcrux. Both deaths would have torn his soul. It's not the absense of a murder that prevented the creation of a Horcrux but the absense of a Horcrux making spell and other circumstances.

That was a great editorial! I am among the few who believe that Harry's not a horcrux. Another reason for this: WHY IN HE WORLD WOULD VOLDEMORT PUT A HORCRUX INSIDE HIS SWORN ENEMY? i think Harry dying is impossible totally. Good editorial again!

I know that this is an old subject, and I'm not sure if anyone has thought of this theory yet, but I have to say (or type) it.

First, I'd like to say that I do not believe that Harry is a horcrux, but when reading this editoral today, an idea suddenly struck me. I'm surprised that I haven't seen or heard anyone else mention this (truthfully, I haven't gone searching much). If Harry were a horcrux, what if Voldemort already retrieved that part of his soul from Harry in the graveyard in GoF? What if that were the real reason Voldemort gained back something of a body that night?

Again, I don't think that this is true, but it's an interesting idea for the believers in the "Harry's a horcrux" theory, and I'm simply surprised that I haven't come across it yet. If it's already been mentioned, I apologize.

i believe Harry will use the Avada Kedabra curse to kill Voldemort and by using it a part of his soul will die and since LV only has a part of his soul with him the prophesy will then be fullfilled.

Harry cannot be a Horcrux unless Voldemort wants to kill part of his own soul. If Voldemort wanted to kill himself, then why would he have even bothered to make all of the Horcruxes?

Right. Finally got on.

Do we know for sure that Voldemort used the Avada Kedabra curse on Harry when he was a baby?
I ask 'cos if he did, ignore this post and I have waste my time. If not then read on. Is it not possible for him to have performed the Horcrux spell on Harry, using the death of Lily as the sin? This would lead Voldemort being invincible as he knew Harry was the only one who could kill him.
Think about it. If there was one bullet in the world that could kill you, you would try and own that bullet, so you couldn't die.
Voldemort tried to make Harry a Horcrux, so that if Harry DID vanquish him and the other Horcruxes, he would still be alive as he would still be 'in' Harry.
But then what about the curse backfiring and killing Voldemort, so it must be the Avada Kedabra curse, I hear you cry.
Well, the curse might have been Avada Kedabra, I just don't know, hence the question at the top of the post. Check it, it's there.
According to me, Avada Kedabra would have shattered Voldemort into shadows and dust, but if it was the Horcrux curse, then it would have split Voldemort's remaining soul into two. One staying with Voldemort and the other going into...Voldemort. Basically, he would have split himself in two. As this would lead to one soul re-entering the original body the wrong way, he thusly
reduced to a wisper of his former self.
Obviously this is only possible if the original curse on Harry wasn't the Avada Kedabra curse.

Firstly I'd just like to say AWESOME EDITORIAL!!! I've always been against the whole Harry is a Horcrux theory, and this editorial proved it even further...I found the whole Nagini thing really interesting!

I have a few questions, and i'm sorry if they've already been asked...
Firstly, and i think there have been other people talking about this, but is it possible that there was never a 6th horcrux created....I mean i'm sure Voldemort intended to make Harry his last horcrux, but it backfired. I'm not sure whether he would then have made a horcrux later from murdering James, or otherwise is there someone else who he may have murdered that was later made into a horcrux, and that we haven't heard about (or i've just forgotten)

Also, do you think there is a certain time within which you have to make the horcrux after the murder, or do you think as long as you soul has split after the murder, you can just make a horcrux whenever....(sorry if my questions have been explained earlier or in the book, but i've forgotten stuff from the books)
Which leads me to my second question...when the spell backfired on Voldemort, he sorta turned into vapour. This would probably mean that that part of his soul would have been destroyed (and if this is not the case...then the rest has no meaning). If so, would he then be able to live on without a soul, or would he have removed it from one of the horcruxes, meaning there would be one less left...or did he possibly kill someone else and make a horcrux from it to continue there being 7 pieces?

Also someone said earlier:

It is also important to note that Harry is a GRYFFINDOR and the possible relics could be Ravenclaw or Gryffindor. It certainly fits the description.

But Voldemort surely wouldn't have known that Harry would have been in Gryffindor, so he probably wouldn't have counted him as a Gryffindor relic.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents...and thanks once again for the GREAT editorial!

I must say I am quiet against this theory.

It is true that neither can live while the other survives, but how can we be so sure it's Harry that the prophecy is talking about? It can simply be somebody unexpected. Furthermore, there has been some contradiction concerning the prophecy. An example is Snape. He claims to have been kicked out half way while eavesdropping, but yet somehow managed to hear the entire prophecy? For further evidence you can refer to the Harry Potter is a horcrux editorial on mugglenet. As you will notice, the ideas have been spread out throughout the books. Of course, how will we remeber that small deatils from the second book when we are so into the 6th? This proves that the prophecy isn't entirely accurate. Also, I am sure JK Rowling won't make it as simple. :no:

As for the Voldemort not knowing Harry is a horcrux theory, I believe he realizes it in the Goblet of Fire. It is important to note that he doesn't NEED Harry there, but wants him. Ever wondered why? Harry defeated him at a young age and Voldemort isn't as powerful when he gets 'reborn'. He still needs time to regain strength. When Voldemort realizes Harry is a horcrux, he feels the need to destroy him as soon as possible, seeing as he is too much of a threat already. Harry is connected to Voldemort, this might be a key to destroying the other horcruxes. Note that JK Rowling has say on what we are informed in the movie and what comes out. In the movie Voldemort stresses the fact that he wants Harry there just as much as he does in the book.

Wow, you guys put a lot of faith in that prophecy, especially considering how Dumbledore said, in ootp, that many of the prophecies don't even come true, and some of them, such as "Voldemort marking so and so as his equal" are self fulfilling; had Voldemort never seen the prophecy, he never would have cursed Harry in the first place.

Anyway, as to whether Harry is or is not a Horcrux... I don't think he is, for reasons that would take too long to discuss. Instead, I present to you both situations.
1. Harry isn't a horcrux. Harry hunts down the horcruxes, breaks em, kill's voldythingie, that's all she wrote.
2. Harry is a horcrux. Harry breaks every horcrux he can find. Presumably, he'll find out one way or another he's the last. Ok, no prob. Makes things easier in fact. Harry goes to Voldemort, and kills him. Voldemort respawns in his barely alive form... RIGHT IN FRONT OF HARRY extracting his soul fragment in the process. Well, guess what? He's alive ain't he? That makes him vulnerable to... AVADA KEDAVRA! Bang, voldemort's dead.

i love this idea and think it would be a good ending though a little sad, also if harry and voldemort both shot 'adava kedavra' at each other at the same time they could both hit each other at the same time and maybe both parts of voldemorts soul would die stimultaneously.
i dont know whether this could work but it could mean an ending where evil is destroyed, even with the bad point of harry dying too.

I completely agree with this theory. There was a lot of evidence there that I hadn't even thought of. One point I would add-if Harry was a horcrux, then Voldemort could possess him without enduring agony right? In the Order of the Phoenix, Voldemort stopped possessing Harry because the love in his heart caused him too much pain. So if part of his spirit was in Harry, wouldn't it be easy to possess him? And how would Harry be able to feel all that love if he had Voldemort's spirit inside him? Voldemort was able to control Harry's mind, but he couldn't live inside Harry. Again, great editorial; I loved it!

If the ferment of soul can be extracted from Harry without killing him
This part of the article made me pause.....because we know that a soul *can* be extracted from a body without the person dying - The Dementor's Kiss! (PoA, pg. 247).
This makes me wonder, if perhaps Harry were a horcrux afterall, he could rid himself of Voldemort's essence as an act of self-sacrifice, leaving someone else to finish off Voldemort (perhaps Snape?). Harry would still be alive (although it wouldn't be a pretty existence) and Voldemort could be vanquished.
Any thoughts?

Just to play devil's advocate here and offer you a counter agrument.

Let's pretend Harry is a Horcrux and the only way to destroy the bit of Voldemort-soul that he is housing, is if Harry dies, like completely-dead-he's-living-with-his-parents.

In Joseph Campbell's book "The Hero with a Thousand Faces", part of the 'Hero's Journey' involves a "death and rebirth" cycle - usually this is metaphorical, but what if Rowling makes it literal?

The editorial writer says:
"Harry cannot kill Voldemort if a Horcrux remains, but Voldemort cannot die at Harry’s hands if Harry is already dead. "

---So Harry dies in order to destroy the final horcrux - not killed by Voldemort, since Voldemort wouldn't destroy his own horcrux(so that fact alone kind of negates this argument, but please ignore for the sake of debate).
---Then Harry comes back to life(I'm sure there's still some philosopher's/sorcerer's stone juice lying around somewhere)
---In coming back to life, Harry's soul must return to his body. But only HARRY'S SOUL, because Voldemort's part soul, while following Harry to the afterlife, if not physically linked to Harry's souls and therefore Harry can come back to life only with his soul.
---The reborn Harry kill's Voldemort.

I'm currently writing an editorial about the Campbell book's connection to Harry, so keep a look out for that. And please just trust that point right now.

The Dementor's Kiss! (PoA, pg. 247).
This makes me wonder, if perhaps Harry were a horcrux afterall, he could rid himself of Voldemort's essence as an act of self-sacrifice, leaving someone else to finish off Voldemort

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!!

That would never work structurally in the over-arcing story.

What if, after killing Lily, Voldemort had done a Horcrux with Harry and, when he tried to kill him, he actually killed his own soul (the one in Harry's body) and his own body?

And, by killing his soul in Harry's body, Harry survived, because the Avada Kedavra can only kill one soul at a time.

Hi, interesting read, but I'm not convinced. I think the idea of Nagini as a horcrux is presented as a hint to us that Harry really could be a horcrux. Dumbledore is uncertain about it, and we see the obvious reasons why a deliberate living horcrux is a bad idea. But we are told by this that a living horcrux is possible.

We also don't know there was an Avada Kedavra used against Harry. This has been assumed, Dumbledore mostly says we don't know exactly what happened. In fact, everyone has said that surviving Avada is impossible, so maybe we ought to draw the sensible conculsion that therefore it was never used. If Voldemort was intending to make a horcrux, which Dumbledore believes, then he must have prepared the necessary spells. It is perfectly possible that the spell which went wrong was a horcrux spell, rather than a bouncing AvadaKedavra. The impression I have is that it is necessary to first split the soul, possibly this has to be by murder, but Voldemort had just done this twice. We really don't know enough details to argue about exactly what Voldemort woud have needed to do, but this also means we certainly can not say that there is anything we know which means Harry could not have have become a horcrux by spell mis-fire.

The best explanation I have seen is that Lily tricked Voldemort to his death. I think we have even been given examples and an explanation of how this could have come about. Snape is manoeuvred into taking an unbreakable vow (or makes the sisters think he is), at penalty of death if he breaks it. Lily was clever and innovative with magic, and I think also on good terms with exactly the one character who has shown us the use of unbreakable vows, Severus Snape. I think it possible that they had already prepared a last-ditch defence if there was no other choice. Lily manoeuvred Voldemort into a vow without his realising, her life in exchange for Harrys. Voldemort accepted the bargain by killing her. Then, when Voldemort did move against Harry (perhaps the horcrux spell), Voldemort found he had broken a vow he had not realised he made, and it killed him. Voldemort's own magic would be brought against himself by the spell, at the instant he definitively broke the vow, very likely the moment of irrevocably initiating the spell against Harry. So while Voldemort would have died, the spell was already started and something happened which Voldemort had never intended.

Most things in the books are signalled before they happen. This is not exactly how we have seen magical bargains in action, but at least it is an explanation within the sort of thing we have been shown, and explains what the characters in the book all find inexplicable. Depending on the exact terms of the vow, any kind of spell directed against harry might have brought death down on Voldemort. Dumbledore does say that Lily invoked ‘old magic’, and magical vows have been described as old magic too.

Now, the smokey snake, in essence divided, which Dumbledore gets from his instruments when examining Harry in OOP. Dumbledore is examining Harry. Not Nagini in his office with him, Harry. The result of the test is telling us about Harry. My initial reaction was that it tested whether Voldemort had invaded Harry's mind, so Voldemort-as-invader was the second soul (?), entwined with Harry but not part of him. But now we are more concerned with horcruxes, it seems very likely that this was an examination of Harry himself. And it found two souls inside him. His own, and the fragment of Voldemort.

What we saw of Tom Riddle from the diary suggests that soul fragments are extremely independent. This soul splitting seems more like growing plants by taking cuttings. Tom showed every sign of trying to become an independent complete person. Perhaps the soul inside Harry is doing the same thing. It doesn't want to be part of Voldemort, but wants to be itself. It may even be helping Harry resist when Voldemort invades. Hence the pain and at least part of Harry's protection against Voldemort. It might even be the case that the fragment of soul inside Harry is still bound by the vow to protect him, while the fragment of Voldemort outside draws on his past soul fragments, split off before the vow was made, and is not bound in this way. It may be the horcrux soul which resists the imperius curse when it is applied to Harry, who shows extraordinary ability at doing this.

As to the prophecy, 'either must die at the hand of the other...' . This part of the prophecy is couched in symmetric language, it doesn't distinguish between the situation of Harry and of Voldemort. Earlier, it says Voldemort will mark Harry. He does this with the scar/horcrux, and later by using Harry to recreate his body. So not only do they share a soul (voldemort gives part of his to Harry), but then they share a body (Voldemort steals part of Harry's). Perhaps this explains Dumbledore's gleam of triumph. Before they were equal in soul, now they are also equal in body. Truly equals, all done by Voldemort. The essay argues that Harry being Voldemort’s horcrux breaks this symmetry and makes the prophecy logically incorrect (as Voldemort cannot die while Harry lives, but Harry certainly can). But I don’t see it that way. First of all, physically, it sounds as though Voldemorts new body containing part of Harry’s might mean that in a different sense, Harry cannot die while Voldemort lives. What happens to someone’s soul if part of their body is still live and well and walking about?

But I am mostly inclined to take this section of the prophecy less literally. The most straightforward interpretation I can make right now is that the two are doomed to be eternal enemies, until one of them dies. Thus neither can live a straightforward ordinary life until he has dealt with the problem of the other. Voldemort clearly thinks this. So does Harry, who has put aside Ginny and any thoughts of ordinary school life until Voldemort is gone. Perhaps this section of the prophecy has also already come to pass, by the constrained choice of both the prophecy victims.

Oh my Oh my...
this post has been going on for 1.5 years.
WOW
Okay.


Harry isn't a horcrux.
I've established that.
Neither can live while the other survives,
what i think that means is some major friend.. prolly ron will end up dying
just to save harry,
or even worse.
Hermione or ginny because they realise love for him.
PASSION
think of something else other than LOGIC.

Oh,
what about the fact that maybe

All the horcruxes have already been destroyed.?
what if there was only the 3?
book, ring, necklace?
maybe that's it.
Maybe voldemort can be defeated NOW.

Oh,
what about the fact that maybe

All the horcruxes have already been destroyed.?
what if there was only the 3?
book, ring, necklace?
maybe that's it.
Maybe voldemort can be defeated NOW.

Oh,
what about the fact that maybe

All the horcruxes have already been destroyed.?
what if there was only the 3?
book, ring, necklace?
maybe that's it.
Maybe voldemort can be defeated NOW.


aww.:tu:

Can someone answer this question cause im confused. Could LV make Nagini immortal by giving her horcruxses and then turn her into a horcrux? because then people wouldn't realize that they had to find Nagini's horcruxes to destroy LV

What if, after killing Lily, Voldemort had done a Horcrux with Harry and, when he tried to kill him, he actually killed his own soul (the one in Harry's body) and his own body?

And, by killing his soul in Harry's body, Harry survived, because the Avada Kedavra can only kill one soul at a time.

oh my god that is a good idea. i never thought of that but i love it

Actually, i disagree. If Harry had Voldemort's horcrux in him, he could sacrifice himself to destroy Voldemort once and for all. :err: yeah....well its a possibility....

But anyway, Harry would still be fulfilling the prophecy, because he is the one killing Voldemort once and for all, but also killing himself and doing Voldemort's dirty work for him.

Neither lives while neither survives.

:clap:

I think that this editorial overlooks one important aspect of the mystery. Voldemort divided his soul into seven parts. One part was in him before attempting to murder Harry, another in a horcrux that he used to bring himself back from “the dead”, and the other five in the following horcruxes:

1) Riddle’s Diary
2) Slytherin’s ring
3) The locket
4) Unknown
5) Unknown

Dumbledore gave us some possibilities about what the last two could be; I will let you come up with your own theory. But if I am calculating correctly then there are only two horcruxes left to destroy and then kill the last piece of his soul, which resides in Voldemort’s resurrected body. The two editorials about the final horcrux being Harry claim that there are still three horcruxes to destroy; if this is true, then Voldemort had divided himself into eight pieces instead of seven. I am pretty sure that he will only be faced with destroying two more horcruxes in the final installment of this series.

I cannot wait to read this book; it is going to answer so many questions!!!!!!!

wow, i never tought of that!!!!:err:

i think you are right!! only 2 horcruxes left and a few months till we get some answers. :drool:

I totally agree. Harry cannot be a horcrux.:gryff:

dont you think that voldemort would be trying to protect harry if he knew that harry was a horcrux? just another reason why harrys not one.

and no way that harry is committing suicide. jo wouldnt do that to us.

Harry kills Voldemort after all the Horcruxes and then he realizes he is the last Horcrux and has to kill himself. Thus Vold dies at his hand. Though, unfortunately, Harry also dies.
Doesn't that solve the problem brought up in the editorial?

Im gonna have to disagree on the whole 'neither can live while the other survives.' I think that Harry is a horcrux. The prophecy never said anything about neither living at the same time. However I have my ray of light shining on harry not being a horcrux

:rockon: Well, even though i don't think that harry is a horcrux, i have an argument for it. I don't think it will happen is that there is no real evdence that it could, I'm just pointing out that it would be possible. Think of this: If Harry WAS a horcrux, he would have to kill himself to get rid of it (most likely) leaving no one left to kill voldie. But if he didn't get rid of it, Voldemort couldn't be killed. Also, voldemort could kill harry if he had more horcruxes left and have it have no effect. But there is one thing- how would voldemort have the time to kil harry? a horcrux might not be a charm, why not a potion, like the one Voldemort used to get reborn? i don't know, but i hope harry isnt a horcrux!!!!

About extracting the extra seventh soul within Harry's body(assuming he's a horcrux):couldn't he be kissed by a dementor? It's the perfect "horcrux killer"

About extracting the extra seventh soul within Harry's body(assuming he's a horcrux):couldn't he be kissed by a dementor? It's the perfect "horcrux killer"

Yeah, you're right. That is a really good solution to that little problem isn't it? But how do you know that the Dementor wont get Harry's soul too?

Harry kills Voldemort after all the Horcruxes and then he realizes he is the last Horcrux and has to kill himself. Thus Vold dies at his hand. Though, unfortunately, Harry also dies.
Doesn't that solve the problem brought up in the editorial?Nope. If Voldemort is "killed" before all of the Horcruxes are destroyed, he goes back to the spirit form that he was in for most of Harry's life until th rebirth in GoF. Thus, Voldemort would be floating around again with a Horcrux tying him to Earth. From what Dumbledore told us, all the Horcruxes must be destroyed BEFORE anyone tries to kill Voldemort.

We also don't know there was an Avada Kedavra used against Harry. This has been assumed, Dumbledore mostly says we don't know exactly what happened. In fact, everyone has said that surviving Avada is impossible, so maybe we ought to draw the sensible conculsion that therefore it was never used.Actually, "everyone" says that Harry is the only one who has ever survived it - that's what fauxMoody tells the class the first time AK is ever mentioned in the books. And again, if Dumbledore thought it was possible, HE WOULD HAVE TOLD HARRY. He was trying to arm Harry with as much information as possible to defeat Voldemort; he wouldn't have left out any possibilities that are so potentially crucial. He's trying to keep Harry alive.

First of all, physically, it sounds as though Voldemorts new body containing part of Harry’s might mean that in a different sense, Harry cannot die while Voldemort lives. What happens to someone’s soul if part of their body is still live and well and walking about? All Voldemort has of Harry is some blood. And not very much of it. That's hardly the same thing as part of Harry's body being alive and well and walking around. That's just a few blood cells, which if you're being so technical that you're counting blood as being Harry still alive, are technically long dead at this point anyway (they only live 120 days).

Doesnt making a horcrux require firstly a murder.. followed by a complex spell to make the chosen object a horcrux?? and Voldermort only had time to carry out the murder part because after that he lost his body.. i think its definately unlikely that he would imagine himself being outmagicked(forgive the use) by a 1 yr old.. dunno just my thoughts... sorry if i sound stupid lol

i love this editorial :)

I feel that many people are forgetting an important detail, the look of triumph in Dumbledore's eye after Harry informs him that Voldemort used Harry's blood to resurrect himself in GoF. I just came up with this theory about five minutes ago but it seems to make a lot of sense. Harry is, or in this case was a (accidental) horcrux. Voldemort removed his soul WILLINGLY from Harry by having Wormtail extract some of his blood. I know that nowhere in the books does it say how to remove a Horcrux, but wouldn't it make sense that the creator of the Horcrux could have it removed? Also, in the CoS, after Harry has emerged and is talking to Dumbledore he says, "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" to which Dumbledore replys, "It certainly seems so." (Pg. 333 US version) A Horcrux is essentially part of Voldemort. Also, Dumbledore is still correct about the Horcruxes.
1. the diary (already destroyed)
2. the ring (already destroyed)
3. the locket (missing)
4. the cup
5. Nangini
6. something of Raveclaw's or Gryffindor's
7. Voldemort himself
The something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's is Harry, I believe he is a descendent of Godric Gryffindor. As Dumbledore tells Harry, he is a "true Gryffindor". (Pg. 334 US edition) Harry pulled Godric Gryffindor's sword from the sorting hat and according to Dumbledore, "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out the hat." Therefore, Harry is a descendent of Gryffindor, therefore the "something" of Gryffindor, and a former Horcrux.
One other reason behind my madness... When Harry first placed the Sorting Hat on his head, it was thought that Harry should be in Slytherin... the hat wasn't reading Harry but was reading Voldemort's soul at first.
One last thing, JK Rowling has said that Books 2 and 6 are very closely related... I do not know where this interview is but am sure she has said it.

This view also means that Harry will only have to destroy the locket, cup, nagini, and Voldemort. Therefore only 3 horcruxes, not four.

Just another view on this controversial topic! Hope you enjoy! :p

wonderfully writen editorial!! i was one of those people that from the minute i put down the 6th book millions of theory's began to run around in my head. And not one of those theory's was Harry being a Horcrux.

all my reasons were mentioned in your editorial. but one thing i didnt think of was the serpent thing. i did think that was going to be somethingof relevance but i didnt think what.

and if Harry was a Horcrux...as so many other people have mentioned, why wouldnt the love in him destroy it? if voldemort cant reside in his body..why should his soul be able to?

and i think Godric's Hollow is a Horcrux. i mean Dumbledore did say that he thought Voldemoet od Voldie as I call him was searching for artifacts of the four founders. does anyone else think that it was too big a conincidence that the Potters were living in Godric's Hollow?

If Harry was a Horcrux, then why does Voldemort always try to kill him? It just doesn't make sense... Harry is not a Horcrux

I know this is probably the stupidest theory any of you will ever hear, but what if, all at one time, Voldemort killed his "greatest enemy", murdered someone, so that he had the power to split his soul again into another piece, and had something to put it into? By this, i mean that if Voldemort was using Inferi at the time, which he was, then he could insert his soul into something that could never die, because it already had. I'm not sure if you could do that, putting your soul into something already dead, but it would be a good idea. Anyway, that was just a thought.:drool:

About extracting the extra seventh soul within Harry's body(assuming he's a horcrux):couldn't he be kissed by a dementor? It's the perfect "horcrux killer"

Actually, that brings up an interesting point in my mind. If Harry is a Horcrux, which is what I think, and part of Voldemort's soul resides in Harry, but Harry's soul is still inside him, and a dementor's kiss sucks your soul out, would the kiss take out Voldemort's soul, Harry's soul, or both?:huh:

i've been hearing that the reason Dumbledore pulled his hand away from harry when he first saw the ring was because he didn't want him to see a crack in the ring which is supposed to be lightning-bolt shaped crack. some believed that the lightning-bolt shape means that its a horcrux because supposedly that supposed to happen when you create a horcrux. fro a while i thought its was plausible but i thought about the diary which i believe that had it anything of that importance it would have been noted.

There are (I least I think) other important components of the Harry is not a horcrux theory that aren't discussed in this editorial, althought the editorial itslef is fabulous!

There mere concept of Harry having a piece of Voldmeort's soul in him doesn't make sense. When Voldmeort was possesing Harry in the Atrium of the Ministry of Magic at the end of Order of the Phoenix, harry was enduring "pain beyond imagining, pain past endurance." If there was a piece of Voldmeort's soul in Harry, it' would be some thing similar to the affect of Harrybeing possesed by Voldemort, every second of his life from the time he was one. Harry would be in terrible agony all the time, which he isn't. Also Harry's heart is so pure an full of love, as Dumbledore points out, that a piece of Voldemort's soul might not be able to survive in Harry. Voldemort was forced to release Harry when hi s heart filled with emotion.

Also, Mugglenet's "What Will Happen in Harry Potter Seven" says that Harry's a Horcux, or than they think all the evidence points ot that conclusion. But one part of their Haryr is a orcrux arguement doesn't add up. They say that, When Voldemort tried to kill Harry, that he was preparing to cast the Horcrux creation spell and that some how or another, it got casted in the jumble of mess and released magic that occured at the moment when the killing curse rebounded off Harry at Voldemort. They argue this because the Avada Kedavra Curse doesn't usually leave any sign of damage and that the house was detroyed, so there must have been some other spells floating around that night to cause the destruction of the house and the creation of Harry as a horcrux. Besides my grevance that this notion is highly assumptuous, there is actually canon evidence that the Avada Kedavra Curse can cause damage on non living material. In the Atrium of the Department of Mysteries, One of Voldemort's killing curses that was meant for Dumbledore, missed, and hit the security gaurd's desk which burst into flame. :wow: Hold on!! The killing curse can cause damage to nonliving material! But this ins;t the only instance, Bellatix's and Voldemort's killing curses hit several parts of the foutain of Magical Bretheren causing them to shatter or break. This must mean that the killing curse Voldemort used on Harry, rebounded around the room several times bfore hitting Voldemort, or the resultant force of it's impact on Harry or Voldemort, caused the destruction of the house!

And Besides, Hagrid said in the shack on the rock, that Voldemort's killng curse, took care of Harry's Parents and His Housebut not Harry. So the Avada Kedavra curse can cause physical damage to nonliving material. And after this long winded explanation of mine we can safely infer than Voldemort was not preparing a Horcrux creation spell when he about to kill Harry, and that he certainly wasn't intending to make Harry into a Horcrux.

I think that this editorial overlooks one important aspect of the mystery. Voldemort divided his soul into seven parts. One part was in him before attempting to murder Harry, another in a horcrux that he used to bring himself back from “the dead”, and the other five in the following horcruxes:

1) Riddle’s Diary
2) Slytherin’s ring
3) The locket
4) Unknown
5) Unknown

Dumbledore gave us some possibilities about what the last two could be; I will let you come up with your own theory. But if I am calculating correctly then there are only two horcruxes left to destroy and then kill the last piece of his soul, which resides in Voldemort’s resurrected body. The two editorials about the final horcrux being Harry claim that there are still three horcruxes to destroy; if this is true, then Voldemort had divided himself into eight pieces instead of seven. I am pretty sure that he will only be faced with destroying two more horcruxes in the final installment of this series.

I cannot wait to read this book; it is going to answer so many questions!!!!!!!

Are u sure the horcruz is used up when he comes back???

DO u think Harry will really not go back to school?

DO u think Harry will really not go back to school?

I've always believed that the prophesy is about Lord Voldemort's ability to live (eternally) only if Harry remains alive and not killed by LV. Harry - absent some wicked Horcrux/Elixer of Life hocus pocus - is fated to die simply because he's mortal. However, if LV doesn't kill Harry, LV will not survive - as "The Dark Lord". The prophesy makes no mention of Tom Riddle.

I think Harry ends up dispatching the remaining horcruxes and in doing so finds a way to make LV a Squibb. All the better if he gets a drought of Nicholas Flamel's elixer and forces the former dark lord to live a long, long life as a powerless Squibb. Afterall Dumbledore had told Tom Riddle, "There are worse things than dying." So, Harry survives, The Dark Lord will be vanquished, and Harry doesn't have the blood of Tom Riddle on his hands. Win-win.

In a way though, Harry being a horcrux would be incredibly convenient to Voldemort?
I really don't think this or anything, but reading the article what came up in my mind was that perhaps he didn't use the Avada Kedavra on Harry at all, but used Lily's murder to deliberately turn Harry into a horcrux, so that he would never be able to kill Voldemort b/c he'd have to be dead himself first. Of course he didn't know the part of the prophecy that either had to die at the hand of the other, but in a heavily hypothetical world in which Harry would probably have to die and evil would triumph, which JKR would never do to us hopefully, the best thing Voldemort could do to ensure someone didn't kill him was to turn this person into a horcrux, wittingly. Also explains why Harry didn't die, say he wanted to turn him into a horcrux by killing James (he must have been after the Potters already seeing as they defied him three times), but then Lily sacrificed her life and he couldn't turn Harry into a horcrux without suffering somehow himself, the same way he couldn't touch him? This would also explain more plausibly why Harry is a parselmouth and seems to make sense as 'marking him as his equal'; they both have one part of Voldemort's soul in them. Of course this works on the principle that you'd have to kill the person in order to destroy the horcrux etc etc. Let's not think about it...
I'm not half as concise as you I'm afraid, hope this makes sense :)

either must die at the hands of the other - sounds like both die at the hands of the other. could also mean that only one dies at the hands of the other. so i guess it could mean both.

in the first scenario - where both die at the hands of the other, here's what i have in mind:
- harry dies saving ginny (maybe her, or whoever)
- harry leaves her with a protection, just like lily left him with a protection
- voldie tries to kill her anyway
- wand backfires because she is protected, just like harry survived when lily left him with a protection
- voldie dies coz his last horcrux is gone.
- so either die at the hands of the other. harry literally dies at voldie's hand (ok, maybe not so literally) because voldie killed him.
- but voldie dies at the hand of harry, because of harry's doing (dying for ginny thus leaving her with a protection)

about dumbledore not telling harry
- dumbledore is so concerned about harry's well-being that he did not want to frighten him by telling him that he is a horcrux
- most likely, snape will tell harry since snape after all is not concerned about harry's emotional well-being
- maybe he overlooked that possibility too. after all, being intelligent, his mistakes are greater than the average person. one of his mistakes, i believe, is neglecting to show affection for voldie (voldie is love-deprived, which explains why he is a sociopath). anyway, that's not my point. my point is that dumbledore makes mistakes, and they may be BIG ones. just like voldie, who also makes BIG mistakes. nobody is immune from big mistakes.
- or maybe, he didnt want to tell harry, simply because he knew how the charm Lily used works.
= LOVE, NOT HATRED
= if harry knows he is a horcrux, there is a possibility that he will do something rash and sacrifice his life to get rid of voldie. the charm wont work that way. his motive for sacrificing his life will be hatred, not love.
= but if harry doesnt know, and he sacrifices his life just so Ginny or someone he loves wont get killed, then his life sacrifice will be out of love, not hatred.

I think people are reading to much into the horcrux theory. I have gone back and read HBP again, Dumbledore speaks quite plainly that Voldemorte was quite clearly going to kill Harry, because he was obssessed with the prophecy, and how Voldemortemade made this dream a prophecy. If he had ignored it and not tried to kill Harry, then nothing would have come to pass. By trying to kill Harry he has made the prophecy a reality. It doesnt make sense, if you believe so badly that the only way you can live is for the other to die, to place part of your soul in the other.

couldnt harry destroy the piece of Voldemort's soul in him then koll himself so they both die? i mean then technically harry would be killing him right?:tu:

Something for everyone to think about. I am fairly certain I can ascertain why Harry was able to destroy the Diary Horcrux as easily as he did...

WHAT substance other than Venom (which I think a book would be immune to) was on that fang?

Answer: Harry Potter's Blood.

Simple as that. If his blood can be used to destroy a horcrux, therefore it is not possible for him to be a horcrux. He would destroy himself from within.

:rockon:

I really enjoyed the editorial, and must say you pointed out a few things that I hadn't yet thought of. Still...I've believed Harry to be a horcrux ever since I first read HBP and I'm not convinced that he isn't based on your arguments. I've tested my theory by reading the books multiple times, and haven't found ANYTHING that would disprove it! Your arguments are certainly good ones, and you may very well be right...no one yet knows what JKR's imagination has thought up concerning Harry's fate. It's entirely possible that Harry could destroy Voldemort's body believing that he could forever safeguard the last piece of Voldemort's soul contained within himself, keeping Voldemort from possessing him by using Occlumency. If the Death Eaters were aware of the horcruxes, they'd know not to harm Harry if he held the last piece of their master's soul...but they DON'T know about the horcruxes, so it's also possible that one of them could kill Harry, unknowingly killing Voldemort as well. This isn't a likely theory...but my point is that no matter how much evidence points to one outcome or another, the possibilities still remain infinite. That's the beauty of storytelling. I've read interviews with JKR after the release of HBP, when she stated that she hadn't yet decided what Harry's fate would be. If she didn't even know, how could we? Personally, I think I'd be more satisfied with Harry dying in the end rather than living. Before you get your panties in a twist, hear me out. I love Harry...he's totally my hero...but if he sacrificed himself for the sake of all witches, wizards and muggles alike...that would be the bravest, most selfless thing he could possibly do. He'd die the way a true Gryffindor should, and he'd live on through the lives he touched. The DA, for example. He created an entire group of people who are just as skilled as him...or soon will be. So yeah...I DO think Harry is a horcrux and I DO think he'll have to die to save everyone else...but I'm not certain of anything and won't be until I read the book. As for corpses being horcruxes...not at all likely. Dumbledore even said that no one would want to use a living thing as a horcrux because living things can be killed. Why would he say that if a horcrux could remain in a corpse? I also have a theory that Harry WAS a horcrux, but when Wormtail used Harry's blood to bring Voldemort back, he gave back the piece of soul that had been in Harry...which would explain how Voldemort was able to return to his body. Voldemort even said that the spell to bring him back couldn't be done without Harry. Based on the words "blood of the enemy, forcibly taken" in the spell, you could assume that ANY enemy would suffice...and Voldemort has many. Another unlikely theory...but still a possibility. Anyway...I have an abundance of theories...some highly likely, others, not so much. I'm keeping an open mind, though.

as 4 their being no act of supreme greatness/sacrifice for the diary and the ring, their waz in fact an act af greatness going on. when harry destroyed the diary he had been bitten by the snake and was dying, therefore sacrficing himself for the diary. and when dumbledore destryed the ring, he somehow dameged his hand making i seem "dead". therefore there was some sort of sacrifice when these two horcrux's where destroyed.

I agree with the piece of evidence from the prophecy "Either must die at the hand of the other." It's very convincing.

But, if Harry was a Horcrux, does anyone think the Dementor's Kiss would play a role. I mean, it's hard for me to believe that Jo would have given Dementors the EXTRA power to suck out souls unless it was extremely important, not just to the world, but to the actual storyline.

But then you'd have Voldemort-infected Dementors... not a pretty thought...

~ Adhish

I've read interviews with JKR after the release of HBP, when she stated that she hadn't yet decided what Harry's fate would be. If she didn't even know, how could we?

Actually, she's had the entire series planned out for years... she knows EXACTLY how it's going to end. She might SAY she doesn't know, but it's only because she can't tell people and spoil it.

Voldemort even said that the spell to bring him back couldn't be done without Harry.

On the contrary, Wormtail suggested using anyone to do it, but Voldemort insisted on Harry simply to regain the ability to touch Harry. He plausibly could have done it with anyone, but then he wouldn't have been able to touch him.

But interesting point about Voldemort withdrawing the fragment of his soul from Harry to regain a body. That sounds very likely.

~ Adhish

This was great. I really enjoyed ready the theories. I would also like to point out that Dumbledore said that the power Harry had was love and that is why Voldemort could not posses him so Harry could not be a Horcrux because the bit of Voldemorts soul could not bare to reside in Harry's body theirfore Harry cant be a Horcrux

Thats a geat post and i agree with it but I think that harry was at one time and in the grave yard when voldemort uses his blood to return he releases the horcrux from harry, but they will discover this later. I have seen online that j.k rowling says dumbledoor's look of joy at that news is sugnificant and that would explain both!!!!

that makes sense, but why would voldemort have made harry a horcrux after lily's death if his initial plan was to kill harry in the first place? he had no idea that harry would survive since he had not heard the end of the prophecy.

and to add to the case, Harry would not be a Horcrux because Voldemort persists in attempting to murder him. He wouldn't really be trying to destroy his own Horcrux, would he? O.o - good job on the argument =]