Can education take place outside school? [Archive]

ripdd

December 22nd, 2005, 8:45 am

junika3 said
First of, mystic_22 is my friend and she's still IN school.

my mistake. :) i think i made the rash assumption she was 22. apologies.
mind you i wasn't in any way having a go at her. i meant that quite sincerely. it's great when you hear of people's happy memories.

And poor you, because most people I know above the age of 7 LOVE school. Including me. I think school is one of the most satisfying places to be in.
yeh, poor me. but it's ok. don't lose any sleep over it. :D
i just didn't fit the box you know? i was also discouraged so much from learning while i was there it took a few years to recover!
i'm so glad to hear that you love your life. that's great.

however, i'm sure it's not THAT unusual to hear of people who didn't/ don't love school. no biggy.

And what were the reasons that made you opt for homeschooling?
it would take a long post (longer than i'll do anyway!) to show the entire journey to that decision. it wasn't something flippant i just figured might be a laugh.
my eldest was not thriving at school. she wasn't just being lazy or bullied or anything. nor were we projecting our own anxieties onto her. i have taught music in schools for about 15 years, so i know the deal.
in fact she was becoming quite neurotic. we investigated many ways to manage this and help her work 'in the system' etc ways to reduce her stress, help her sleep etc.
by the way she was 5 years old. (not unusual here in Australia)

we considered was it the class, the teacher, the school. was it 'her'. was it diet, was it unrealistic expectations. was it 'us'. was it the 'school system'. etc etc etc
we ended up deciding that rather than waiting for her to 'deal with it' we'd try an alternative. if i was at a job that caused me that much stress, i wouldn't hang around for the next 13 years! i'd change jobs!

needless to say she has thrived and blossomed so far. challenges and all. if this changes, we will be open to looking at alternatives again, including school.

You are exposed to sooo many more types of people in school! You grow up more open-minded! And do you really experience stuff that you'll need to know later in life at home? I think you experience more at school! And (generally speaking) you get more disciplined in school, and I think discipline is essential for life.

i'm doing this in the spirit of answering honest queries. not to pick apart your posts ok? you have a valid viewpoint that i validate.
re the above.
exposing to different people.
at school, because of the area, she was in a class of 25x 5 - 6 year olds from pretty much a similar ethnic backgroun and no great extremes of living standards (though one friend was VERY wealthy). she was discouraged from 'playing with the boys'.
in the group she and her brothers are a close part of at the moment her best friends are -
2 brothers aged 5 and 8 who live on a property and can pretty much feed themselves from the garden. the older boy has a fetching pony tail which her brother is now emulating. :D (looks VERY cool i must say).
a brother / sister aged 6 and 9 who live in a teepee with their mother.
1 boy aged 6. a group of 4 sibs aged 4 - 11 who live with their mother and don't own a car. they are quite poor and walk everywhere etc.
a family of very straight laced christians with 6 kids. mum at home dad works.
by the way she's nearly 8.

discipline i won't go into. it's such a subjective thing.
let it be said that my philosophy is a non punitive one and that my children find their own motivation to achieve. i also have higher standards of behaviour than most classes are able to achieve, so far as how people treat each other.

when this diverse bunch of kids get together they are all in together. it's a joy to see the older ones making room for younger ones, boys and girls taking their own time to develop preferences for other's company and interage friendships developing.

i must say that my best friends are 27, 37 and 42. i am 37. we also have a dear friend who is 93 and we see a lot of her.

you know, i am not trying to convince anyone here, so i'm going to stop now. there will definately be examples of all you consider evil in homeschooling. some people will do it for those reasons we deplore. that's sad. some people will do it to try and insulate their children from life.

my point is that school doesn't protect people from those character/life traits. there will be life stories in your school that would curl your hair. it happens everywhere.

hopefullly though, hearing one story might help you broaden your view of what homeschooling can mean and the benefits it can have.
maybe it's a difference you could be exposed to you know? in a positve way.

cheers all
ripdd

mystic_22

December 22nd, 2005, 10:46 am

I personally think school is a waste of time, but unfortunatly we live in a socitey where if you did not go to school, you most likely will never be succesful. I believe we should go to school so we can learn to read and write, do basic math, and thats all. About social skills you can develope them by your friends from the neighborhood, or whenever you go out to a public place. I dont think you have to go to school to learn anything you can learn everything by experiencing it. Now dont get me wrong I have learned a lot from school, but when are we actually going to use half of the stuff they taught us? Were not going to use most of it but we are going to use more of what we learned outside of school, so that we can be successfull.

No offence but I think you've been a bit rude and biased in your post when you start of with saying you think school is a complete waste. In all are posts we have always started by saying we respect each others opinions. You on the other hand don't think so.
When we move on to your opinion I respect it. You have your reasons or experiences to say so. But most of us here beg to differ. You said that you don't think you have to go to school to learn anything. You have to experience it. But where will you experience it? School is where you experience things. Do you think that life is only science english and maths?? Do you think life is only about doing well in your career?? And if you do then I feel sorry for you. Life as you have rightly said is about experiences. Experiencing learning with 40 other children of your age. Experiencing laughing over a teacher's mistake with your friends,experiencing giving exams with your classmates, experiencing the last minute phone calls the day before the exam to confirm doubts,experiencing running to class to get the first seat,experiencing breathlessly waiting for your results,experiencing acting for the interschool dramatics competion,experiencing getting scolded by your teachers and getting backed up by your friends,experiencing the various school functions and charity programes,experiencing singing carols for the school christmas programes,experiencing eating chocolates while you teacher is teaching,experiencing stiffling your laughter and pulling an innocent face so that you teacher will not find out about the letters beneath your desk,experiencing the fights over the ball game or over some silly stupid things,experinecing the crying and then reconciling,experiencing the group hugs and kisses,experiencing life in school.
You probably think that homeschooling is good, maybe it is and you say that you have to experience things to learn. All of the above that I have mentioned may now seem to be trival issues but they are the problems we face in life. I don't know if you read the book or not, it's by Robert Fuljum and it's called ''Every thing that I needed to know I learned in kindergarden.''
It's true. When you grow up you don't face more serious problems your childhood problems just get magnified and you learn to solve them by experiencing. And everything that I have mentioned above do you honestly feel that you can experience all this without going to school?????

mystic_22

December 23rd, 2005, 11:35 am

it would take a long post (longer than i'll do anyway!) to show the entire journey to that decision. it wasn't something flippant i just figured might be a laugh.
my eldest was not thriving at school. she wasn't just being lazy or bullied or anything. nor were we projecting our own anxieties onto her. i have taught music in schools for about 15 years, so i know the deal.
in fact she was becoming quite neurotic. we investigated many ways to manage this and help her work 'in the system' etc ways to reduce her stress, help her sleep etc.
by the way she was 5 years old. (not unusual here in Australia)

we considered was it the class, the teacher, the school. was it 'her'. was it diet, was it unrealistic expectations. was it 'us'. was it the 'school system'. etc etc etc
we ended up deciding that rather than waiting for her to 'deal with it' we'd try an alternative. if i was at a job that caused me that much stress, i wouldn't hang around for the next 13 years! i'd change jobs!

needless to say she has thrived and blossomed so far. challenges and all. if this changes, we will be open to looking at alternatives again, including school.

ripdd

You opted for homeschooling to help your daughter lead a more normal life. Now at that time you did not know what was troubling your daughter? And you still don't. So how do you know that in the course of time school would not help your daughter. You never gave school a chance.Besides when you helped you daughter get out of her problem by taking her out of school she did well. But that is what is making her weak. She was never taught to solve and deal with the problem. She just got out of it. We do well only when we are faced with a problem,when we can deal with it and still do well. It is only during difficult times that are true charecter comes out.By doing well only on easy roads and not being able to do well on rough roads is your daughter really doing well????
Your daughter was just 5 years old when you took her out of school. Should you not have given school a chance?? A couple of more years. Till she was 10???

junika3

December 23rd, 2005, 12:23 pm

we investigated many ways to manage this and help her work 'in the system' etc ways to reduce her stress, help her sleep etc.
by the way she was 5 years old. (not unusual here in Australia)

we considered was it the class, the teacher, the school. was it 'her'. was it diet, was it unrealistic expectations. was it 'us'. was it the 'school system'. etc etc etc
we ended up deciding that rather than waiting for her to 'deal with it' we'd try an alternative.

So you're saying that instead of letting your daughter find a solution to her problems, you pulled her out of school when she encountered her first problem, and solved it for her? Isn't that (no offence to anybody) not very....good? Shouldn't she learn to solve her problems herself, and thus become a little more independant?

ginny_harry1

December 23rd, 2005, 2:00 pm

I think you can but I think that school is a better sourse of education. Expecally if you are in High School and Collage. It's not going to do you much good if you know the information better than the other but don't have a degree to show it, while trying to get a job. Also school teaches you how to socalize. When I walked in to kindergarden I was too shy to talk to anyone. Now I'm still shy but I can freely talk to anyone I want to.

Tenshi

December 23rd, 2005, 5:43 pm

No I don't think so. Why else do they force you to go to school here. There are things you can only learn at school. I really doubt that parents can teach scientist or higher maths. They or other people can teach you to read and to write. But there's more to need to know like history etc.

SuperGlucose

December 23rd, 2005, 6:01 pm

Education can exist out of schools. It's just true. In the same sense, someone can put out a fire without the fire department. There is nothing stopping someone from getting an education just because a public school doesn't exist. There are books, people to talk to, things to figure out on your own, etc.

Schooling helps, indefinitely, but isn't entirely necessary to learning. There tends to be lots of busy work or bad teachers at schools, and you won't always get as great of an education as others, but the education still exists nonetheless.

Education is, quote answers.com, "the knowledge or skill obtained or developed by a learning process" - not throughout schools. Much of which I have learned came from music and just overall interesting people. The level of educated people would severely decrease, but not hit 0%.

ripdd

December 23rd, 2005, 8:31 pm

thank you junika3 and mystic22 for your thoughts and perspectives.

yes, one way of dealing with this would have been to *not* deal with it and see if in time it sorted itself out. this is an option we considered. it is what most people suggested.

when she encountered her first problem, and solved it for her?
1. it was a longer process than you are expressing. nearly a year of sleepless nights is a long time for a 5 year old.
2. we didn't solve it for her, we gave her another option.

rather than leave her stewing until she is 10, i thought, perhaps she might have more skills at that age to try again!

i am not at all saying dive in and stop all pain for your kids. don't let them deal with anything themselves. however there is a line that is crossed where i think it is appropriate. it's why young children particularly have adults in their lives. to make those kinds of calls. (though i know there are people who disagree with this. eg the summerhill school)

one of the things we see in the HP books is a boy with no adult looking out for him. of course his early life taught him heaps and helped to form the character we know and love. but if there was a true parentfigure in his life seeing how he was treated i imagine they would have put a stop to it pretty quickly!

i am not trying to justify our decision to you guys. i am perfectly comfortable that i did the best for my family at that time. if situations change then we will make choices for that time too.
i am saying that we don't need to be limited to the very few choices the powers that be would have us believe are the only ones.
sometimes if you think outside the box you find there's a whole world of other ways to achieve your goals and dreams.

the concerns expressed here (eg. lack of 'socialization' 'how do you teach upper level subjects' 'how will you get a job' 'can you go to uni afterwards') are not new or uncommon. if you ever have the time or inclination, do a little google (or whatever search you prefer :D ) and you will find a lot of information on how thousands and thousands of people have found a very wide spectrum of ways to answer them.

peace all.
ripdd

hermionefille

December 24th, 2005, 1:16 am

I think school is important, both for what it teaches you and the social aspects. I don't think that all learning needs to be in school, because they won't nesicarily teach you everything you need to life (like how to spell nesicarily).

IC_Thestrals

December 24th, 2005, 1:26 am

I learned nothing in school. I had fun in the begining but honestly, the only thing I learned was how to curse. Its homeschooling and social clubs for my children. They can go to college and if they want to go to school when they are older thats fine, but they will always be welcome to quit and come back to homeschooling. Naturally, they will have to go to actual college for advanced education. I had more friends in my neighborhood than I ever did at school so I really don't see the point.

Kay_Renee

December 24th, 2005, 6:40 pm

I think that both learning at home and school is important. There are upsides and downsides to both. I've learned some lessons I'll take with me the rest of my life from my family, but I've also learned a lot about the real world from going to a public school. Overall, I think that kids should go to schools, not because of how much they learn about subjects, but about social skills. I recently met a boy a couple years older than me that's homeschooled, and he just didn't know how to act around people. I think that when I'm an adult, I'll use social skills as much as any subject I learn about in school to try to become sucessful.

GenevieveS

December 25th, 2005, 7:02 am

Education can take place anywhere and anytime there is someone available to pass information on. (It also doesn't have to stop when you graduate, folks! :) )

Home-schooling (and its varients, of which there are many) is truly the best viable option for some students and their parents. When it's done right, it requires a lot of effort and time on the home-schooling parent's part to make sure that all the bases (academically, socially, and developmentally) are covered. When it's done right, the student can move very quickly through and delve deeply into the topics that they are especially interested in, giving them, possibly, an even better understanding of where their talents and passions lie. When it's done right, there is so much less wasted time in the day. (How much time do you spend in school waiting out the last few minutes til the bell, cause there's not enough time left to start a new topic? Or sitting through an entire class of the teacher covering material that you already know, but some of the class doesn't and it must therefore be covered?) Honestly, it sounds to me like ripdd and her daughter are a perfect example of the scenario where it's the ideal solution. Some children simply do not function well in an environment as structured as most school systems.

As far as diversity goes, you may be coming from different areas than I am or where I grew up, but there's not all that much diversity within a local public elementary school here. Schools are zoned based on where you live; schools are also funded by property taxes. Hence, if you live in a "good" school district, your kids generally go to school with a group of kids all their same age, mostly their same income level, and mostly from similar cultural backgrounds. Homeschoolers (when doing it well) make an effort to get thier kids around a much wider variety of age groups, backgrounds, and income levels.

My eldest is 5 and in kindergarten in the public schools here. I will not be homeschooling him, because he loves school, he's learning at an incredible rate, and I would probably kill him if I were trying to teach him these things. :) It's not for everyone, it's not for me and my son, but it is the right answer for some families.

kjty2k

December 26th, 2005, 11:11 pm

There are different types of education. There are the "book" smarts, which is what you (supposedly) learn in school, and the "stree" smarts, which is what you (supposedly) learn outside of school. But then again, if you never go to a school (i.e. homeschool) you may never learn how to deal with different types of poeple, or not at least until you are older, and then it's harder to learn how to treat people if you've always been taught that muslims are bad (just an example....), it would be hard to unlearn that. So, I think that school is essential to a kids education, for the "book smarts" as well as the interaction with people their own age. But then again, homeschooling isn't bad, I'm not trying to say that at all, I'm just saying that people need to experience different things to be a well-rounded person. Anyway, learning is an ongoing process, what adult can't go to bed at night saying that they havn't learned something?

IC_Thestrals

December 26th, 2005, 11:17 pm

My companion was homeschooled. He is more sociable than I am. He lived in my neighorhood which was filled with kids and he went out to play just like everyone else. School taught me to avoid people like the plague because children are the devil incarnate and if they can find something to torture someone about they will and if they can't find anything, they will make something up. School is not social hour, it is for learning. Thats all it was ever for, the fact that you make friends in class has nothing to do with having good social skills. You shouldn't even be talking in class. Thats why school hours are so long, they have to accomodate those who won't shut up and do their work. :) I would rather be home playing with my neighborhood friends than listen to people who lived miles away from me go on and on about their wonderful lives in their gated communties.

Cadia

December 27th, 2005, 1:29 am

Education can take place anywhere and anytime there is someone available to pass information on. (It also doesn't have to stop when you graduate, folks! )
I think a "good, well-rounded education" does not depend on the environment in which that education takes place, but on the person being educated.
I agree completely with these two statements. Education can (and should) take place anywhere in any circumstance and can come from anyone. I will also point out that book learning is underestimated. If your mind it acute and you understand quickly, you can pretty much teach yourself directly from books. Think of Abraham Lincoln. All of the school he got in his life amounted to about less than a year (as he said), and yet he was brilliant because he read books and had a knack for understanding things. It all depends on the person.
As for homeschooling, the few people I've met who were home-schooled were by no means well-rounded individuals and did fall into the stereotype of "not able to interact socially with peers". However, I'm not sure that they would have faired all that much better in school. One boy was the typical "nerd" who was/would be picked on mercilessly in school (his parents did try to place him back in school); they have moved to a different state since then, so I don't know how it has worked out
A very close friend of mine (perhaps my best friend at the moment) is homeschooled, and she is one of the most outgoing, friendly, social people I know. She's also extraordinarily smart. She's living proof that the two can go together! :D
Home-schooling (and its varients, of which there are many) is truly the best viable option for some students and their parents. When it's done right, it requires a lot of effort and time on the home-schooling parent's part to make sure that all the bases (academically, socially, and developmentally) are covered. When it's done right, the student can move very quickly through and delve deeply into the topics that they are especially interested in, giving them, possibly, an even better understanding of where their talents and passions lie. When it's done right, there is so much less wasted time in the day. (How much time do you spend in school waiting out the last few minutes til the bell, cause there's not enough time left to start a new topic? Or sitting through an entire class of the teacher covering material that you already know, but some of the class doesn't and it must therefore be covered?) Honestly, it sounds to me like ripdd and her daughter are a perfect example of the scenario where it's the ideal solution. Some children simply do not function well in an environment as structured as most school systems.
This is exactly how my friend describes her homeschooling experience. She went to regular school for a few years, and tells me how much better homeschooling is for her. She says she can get past the simple stuff and right down to the core of the matter very quickly. At the core of the matter is where she always wants to be, and in she says, in school there was no time for it because the basics were stressed. There were also those problems with scheduling and how resraining the "structured environment" was.

I would like to point out that school is not the only place socialization with peers takes place. For my friend, there are many substitutes. She goes out of the house and sees her peers every day. She is a permanent member of my group of friends even though she doesn't go to school with us. She has dance classes three times a week ( I do too), she's a member of a string ensemble, she is taking a class in pottery and another in painting at the moment, she takes tennis lessons with me in the summer, we both volunteer at the library and a local museum. In addition to these activities she is also just simply a member of our community. I see her at parties, at our friends houses, at each other's houses, in our common out of school classes, and sometimes we do schoolwork together. I think she is more social and active than many, many people at my school. And the reason is, she's motivated. She wants to be social and active. She's a doer and a goer. It's just who she is!

All that rambling being done, I will acknowledge the fact that not all homeschooled people are as suited to it as this friend of mine. I can only believe that homeschooling is not for everyone, and that some people are just not cut out to be social. Some people would be just as reclusive as Erinys explains if they were in school. I don't think it's the fact that they're homeschooled that makes them that way. That's just who they are. On the other hand, some people are not cut out to be homeschooled. It could concievably be detrimental to their development if it was not right for their personality. But who knows kids better than their own parents? Hopefully they are judging right and homeschooling their kids for the right reasons.

alas_ear_wax

December 27th, 2005, 6:41 am

Of course it can! EMERSON was homeschooled- just look at how wonderful he is!

Haha, but I know from personal experience that public school is how kids make friends. Yes, I make friends from sports, but who are the people that I play sports with? The same girls that I go to school with, of course!

Public school is the best, that's what I think.

Romy

December 27th, 2005, 3:39 pm

Erinys

December 27th, 2005, 4:11 pm

Having grown up in a country that doesn't accept homeschooling, I've always had trouble understanding how it works. How can your parents know enough to teach you in all relevant subjects?
Even though I very much agree with furthering your education outside of school (one never stops learning) I do think school in necessary. If only for the social experience. :)

Different states have different laws regarding homeschooling, but I do know that in Missouri you have to have classes in specific subjects, for a specific amount of time, maintain records of the lesson plan, and keep samples of the child's work. There is no requirement for the parents education level. And, well, there are plenty of teachers whose knowledge of the subject that they are teaching is limited to the textbook and answer key - it's not hard to see how a parent might feel that they can perform to the same standard.

As homeschooling has risen in popularity here in the US, there are more and more resources for the parents. In some areas, homeschooling parents form groups and networks, with different parents teaching their group on subjects in their "area of expertise". Many school districts will also allow homeschooled children to come to school for some subjects(which, of course, can also help in the socialization).

IC_Thestrals

December 27th, 2005, 10:21 pm

Having grown up in a country that doesn't accept homeschooling, I've always had trouble understanding how it works. How can your parents know enough to teach you in all relevant subjects?
Even though I very much agree with furthering your education outside of school (one never stops learning) I do think school in necessary. If only for the social experience. :)
My companion's parents taught him basic math and english and sent him to lessons for other stuff, often in groups with other homeschooled children. As technology advanced, he completed courses online. He decided he wanted to go to high school. He was younger than everyone else when he went but he said he learned far less in class than he did at home and almost regretted it in the long run because he didn't even get any girlfriends in high school other than me (or so he says :lol:) "so what was the point." He is insane...could have to do with the homeschooling...well, there you go. If you want your children smart and don't mind them being a little nutty, go with homeschooling. If you want your children to have a ludricis amount of friends they will never talk to again after they leave school and don't mind them being average than send them to public school. :)

junika3

December 28th, 2005, 5:35 am

I do respect your thoughts and views, but I happen to disagree with you, IC_Thestrals. I'm sorry that your school experiences were so bad, but please, whatever your problem is, don't stereotype. Children are not the devil incarnate and they do not torture evrything they see! Where on earth did you get that notion from? Are children the ones who start world wars? Are they the ones who rape or murder people? Maybe a couple of kids in YOUR school were mean. All kids aren't. And thats a very mean and hurtful thing to say.

And alright, you shouldn't talk in class. But what about lunch hour? And recess? And class discussions? And the bus ride to/drom school?

And making friends in class helps you DEVELOP good social skills, it doesn't necessarily mean you HAVE good social skills.

And what about field trips? You learn so much! And its just not the same, going alone.

And teachers are trained to help children, and train them for life. Most parents aren't.

Romy

December 28th, 2005, 4:36 pm

Different states have different laws regarding homeschooling, but I do know that in Missouri you have to have classes in specific subjects, for a specific amount of time, maintain records of the lesson plan, and keep samples of the child's work. There is no requirement for the parents education level. And, well, there are plenty of teachers whose knowledge of the subject that they are teaching is limited to the textbook and answer key - it's not hard to see how a parent might feel that they can perform to the same standard. Depends on the teachers, I would think. Most of mine were rather well-read in their subject. After 4 years of studying it in college, I would expect them to be.:p

As homeschooling has risen in popularity here in the US, there are more and more resources for the parents. In some areas, homeschooling parents form groups and networks, with different parents teaching their group on subjects in their "area of expertise". Many school districts will also allow homeschooled children to come to school for some subjects(which, of course, can also help in the socialization).
Isn't that basically the same thing as school then? Just in a different group?

If you want your children smart and don't mind them being a little nutty, go with homeschooling. If you want your children to have a ludricis amount of friends they will never talk to again after they leave school and don't mind them being average than send them to public school. As Germany has different kinds of school, your school type usually determines whether you're "average" or not. Going to the Gymnasium makes you a sort of "elite", going to the Realschule would be the middle and going to the Hauptschule gives you rather bleak career expectations.
But I can't say that I don't talk to my old school frineds anymore. In fact I'll be going to the pub with them tonight. And tomorrow. :D

Erinys

December 30th, 2005, 2:34 am

Depends on the teachers, I would think. Most of mine were rather well-read in their subject. After 4 years of studying it in college, I would expect them to be.:p
Yes, it does depend on the teacher, but it is really a problem of perception. Right now, in America, the political parties have spent many, many hours bashing teachers (and the teachers union - conservative politicians HATE unions) as the main, if not only, problem in our educational system. So, the public perception is that all teachers are fairly awful and maybe even worthless. Of course, not all teachers are bad, many are truly excellent, but.... we do have a large number of barely competent teachers and/or teachers who get stuck teaching classes for which they have little or no training. Since these teachers are the ones who get mentioned the most from year to year(in parent meetings and at any gathering of parents outside of school), it merely feeds the misperception that many of our teachers are incapable of teaching.

As for the college degree, the teachers here spend a lot of their college time learning educational theory. They don't necessarily spend four years concentrating on one particular subject area. Plus, even when they do have a particular subject area, they might be required by the school to take on a different subject to fill out their schedule - especially in our small, rural school systems.

Isn't that basically the same thing as school then? Just in a different group?
The main difference seems to be that they would only be in the "group" class for one day a week, whereas in school they are in the classes daily. But I am far from an expert on this sort of thing, I have only talked to others who homeschool/have been homeschooled - I, personally, have never been directly involved.

junika3

December 30th, 2005, 6:11 am

I still think you can't get a COMPLETE education outside school. Education isn't just Science and Math, its so much more! It makes you a person. And like I said, would you ever admit to be only Physics and Math?

I think you miss a lot of stuff by not going to school.

IC_Thestrals

December 30th, 2005, 10:44 pm

I think you miss a lot of stuff by not going to school.
I think your wrong. :D

danfanbigtime

December 30th, 2005, 10:47 pm

yes h o m e s c h o o l

erica_7

December 31st, 2005, 2:43 am

Emerson did home schooling!! He turned out great so you must be able to get a good education! :)

ripdd

December 31st, 2005, 3:15 am

i was wondering if anyone would mention emerson!!!! :D

one comment on the learning of teachers...
i have great respect for teachers, who i think are generally underpaid, overworked, underappreciated members of society.
my husband has just finished his training to be a secondary school teacher here in australia. a HUGE chunk of their time is spent learning something called 'classroom management'. and also education theory as has been mentioned.

all power to those of you who love your schools. that's great.

and all freedom to those of us homeschoolers.
freedom is a great gift and an even greater responsibility. for those of us who choose this particular road less travelled, i wish great discernment and fun for the year ahead.

kjty2k

December 31st, 2005, 4:14 am

It does depend on the person. I think to a certain level, it's okay....I mean my parents homeschool me? No...someone would wind up dead or in prision for murder. But then again, for some kids it is necessary to homeschool them. If you travel a lot, if the kid is really ambitious and has to travel, then it's a good thing. I do think poeple miss out if they do not go to public school. I think high school is a great thing, and maybe if they don't talk ALL classes there, just a few, that would be a good thing (like they're mom can't teach them art or something....you know...), kind of a good compromise. I mean, I'm on my school newspaper, could I get that experience being homeschooled? I don't think so. It's all about give and take. Are you willing to give up some experiences you might have a public school to be homeschooled? Are you willing to maybe graduate a few years later to go to a public school (must homeschoolers I know graduate at least 2 grades above their age grade level (hope that makes sense). Is it all bad? No. Most of us who think homeschooling is, havn't experienced it. I had a friend who wanted to be homeschooled for a year, she tried it, and hated it, so she now goes to private school. It all depends on the people involved, the circumstances, and all of that. Besides school is not the only place one learns.

erica_7

December 31st, 2005, 4:31 am

one comment on the learning of teachers...
i have great respect for teachers, who i think are generally underpaid, overworked, underappreciated members of society.
my husband has just finished his training to be a secondary school teacher here in australia. a HUGE chunk of their time is spent learning something called 'classroom management'. and also education theory as has been mentioned.

I'll be honest... Teachers tend to hate me. I think I drive them crazy sometimes... most of the time I really don't mean to! I seriously respect them (most of the time) and I know they're job is really hard, and I honestly don't purposely try and make they're job harder. But I guess sometimes I'm a little horrible to them... from now on i'll try to be a bit nicer to them :)

Now I feel really bad :td:

Fellyphone

December 31st, 2005, 5:36 am

I do believe there are things one can learn outside of school. For me, I call them "life lessons". Getting an education is important but it won't really teach a person about relationships (the good and bad), real life financial situations, etc.

To be a well rounded individual, I feel having a formal education as well as having life lessons is important.

IC_Thestrals

December 31st, 2005, 3:34 pm

about relationships (the good and bad), real life financial situations, etc.
How does school teach you this? How does going through torture make you a wellrounded individual? I never learned how to balance a check book in school or how investing really works. I didn't learn about overdraft fees and interest payments. I learned how to be withdrawn, antisocial, how to hate deeper than most. How to have a nervous breakdown before I was 18, how to be put on extra strength medicine because the person that is picked on is the one with the problems right? I learned how to beat someone up without the teachers knowing (having it done to me). I learned how one goes about stealing another's bike or school equipment or cd player or gameboy with all its games. I learned the most efficient way to make someone feel worthless. I suppose I should be grateful? Without this I would have never become a Blackbelt...or kickboxing champ. I shouldn't have had too. I will never send my children to a public school (or private because sometimes they are just as bad because of the wealth factor), my children will be homeschooled. They will be allowed to go have grand adventures outside after school but I will never put my kid through that.

junika3

January 1st, 2006, 5:59 am

I think your wrong. :D

Why? If you were homeschooled, would you EVER have the excitement of 'the first day back'? Going to a new classroom every new year? There are sooo many more....

mystic_22

January 2nd, 2006, 8:30 am

ripdd

January 2nd, 2006, 9:20 am

mystic_22

January 2nd, 2006, 11:54 am

mystic 22
i am so glad that you had a good resolution to the issues you were facing. i am really happy for you that you enjoy your life.
i also understand that you are 16 and see the world through a particular lense.

however, you have made some statements in your above spiel which are actually not accurate. saying things like this isn't helping your cause which i assume is to convince people of the merit of your point of view.

Maybe I am 16 and not as mature as you are but I don't see the world through a particular lense. I see the world the way the world is. In this thread we are talking about school. And children go to school. I am posting in this thread from the point of view of children who go to school. Children or part grown ups.

this is as unbalanced a view as saying all kids are evil!
people are people. you will find great ones and not so great ones in every generation and every situation.
lots of kids truly ARE amazing people. i am fascinated by them and met some of my favourite people in the world when i was teaching music. i have been invited to the weddings of a few of my students and met their babies too! children become adults. adults were once children. circle of life and all that...

I am not saying that all kids are evil. If you read the post properly you will see that I have written exactly what you are saying. People are people. Some are nice and some are mean. This post was actually directed to IC_Thestrals who has said in one of his posts that kids are mean. To which Junika3 replied saying that all kids are not mean and maybe a few of the kids in his school had been mean to him.

on this one you aren't convincing me of anything!
life is life.
i don't need to replicate and synthesize life and present it to my children in that way. we live IN the real world already!
:D

Maybe I did not explain myself properly on this one. So here is your explanation. Many people tend to think that children are small people and don't understand what life is all about. I am sure you have heard this phrase manytimes because I have. Teachers and other grown ups keep telling children that once they pass out of school and enter the world of jobs they will have to face the real world and that will be difficult. A lot of adults tend to think that children do not understand the problems of life and will understand them only when they grow up start careers and ''enter the real world.''I am not saying you but a lot of people. When I said school is the real world withing four walls I was trying to argue against this opinion that a few adults have. Problems faced in life whetehr in at young age or old are the same. In all problems we have to deal with loss,pain,sorrow,forgiving,anxiety.
They come to us through different situations but the feelings are the same. And these feelings are felt by all whetrer child or grown up.
As a grown up mother or working woman or man/father we tend to face a lot of problems. Of rejection,of money,of not being abl to maintain relationships. Well kids go through all of this as well. Only through different means. Kids face disappointment when they rae rejecyed. Rejected a role in the play or rejeted by people they want to be friends with. Money problems are facedd through shortage. Grown ups face a shortage of money,kids face a shortage of so many things. Maybe not enough crayons,or noty enough cool toys to impress your friends with. Not enough paints to finish your favourite painting and you are scared to ask mom or dad. It's the same feeling as not having enough money. Infact when I was 10 I hadf this friend who wanted to set up a colour stall in the fair. There were problems at home and she did not know what to do. She made sketches of different things and gave them to our teachers to buy. The teachers did so. She took the money to buy lots of crayons,paints,clour pencils etc and set up her stall. See??? It's the same feeling.Again it is because in school we go through these experiences that they become easier to handle later on in life.

colombine
that little 2 year old in the UK who was abducted and tortured..... by 10 year olds.

these aren't the 'rule'. god i pray they are the exception. but still they disprove what you just said.
These are exceptions. As we have said earlier some people are good and some not so good. These just happened to be some of the latter.

if you did a poll in the prisons of who attended school and who wouldn't, i don't think the results would support your assumption here.
Firstly have you done a poll????
And again if you read carefully here I have not mentioned school. I have just said that adults who commit crimes have not been taught differently while they were children. I did not say taught in school.
They have not been taught. Period. Whetehr school or at home is different.
So from where does the assumption come???

drats. lost me again.

What I mean by saying in school you understand pain and at home you don't is that at home you generally meet up with people you like. If you are being home schooled you associate with people you like. And you do not associate with those you do not like.Whereas in school you associate with a variety of people whether you like them or not. And you are still affected when they go through pain. While being home schooled you are not given the oppurtunity to go a phsae where someone you do not like or care about goes through pain.
But in school you learn to be sympathetic and considerate towards the pain of those who you do not like and care about as well.

you are speaking honestly from your heart i can tell. i appreciate that.
but that last statement is just outside of the range of things i can walk past without commenting on! you have no basis for this statement! you have no logic behind you. no experience of a wide range of people who have tried different things to back that up.

Right I would appolagise for that. What I meant is maybe not better human beings but definitely good human beings. Better is a comparison we have to make. You know of people who have turned out to be great inspite of having not been to school. whereas I know of people who would have been much better had they been to school. So it's a comparison I cannot make when we do not know the same people. Once again I would have to say that my post was a reply to IC_Thestrals and I was basically trying to tell him to send his kids to school cause they will grow up to be good happy human beings and to not stop them from going to school because of his past.
Once again I am sorry to have made that particular comparison so bltantly but I am supported by the statement by people I know. But since you do not know these people I will say no more.

what you DO have is a very real experience where you managed to turn a situation from despair to fulfillment. that is so fantastic. it is wonderful to hear of someone surrounded by such special friends who help each other so much.
however that is not everyone's experience. please give IC_Thestrals (and others including mysefl) the courtesy of accepting their story at face value as we accept yours. until you have walked in their shoes you really have no basis for the tone you are taking with them.

I totally agree that my experiences are not yours, IC_Thestrals or others experiences. We live different lives in different places. I seriously feel bad that you all have gone through trying times that has forced you'll to leave school. But as I mentioned before I have gone through terrible time too. And I have come through them hale and hearty and I love school. Had it not been for school I would not have survived that particular incident.
I accept your stroy completely. They are your views and feelings. But I have walked in their shoes. Because I have gone through times when I would have loved to leave school. Those were tough years. But as I said they are gone and I love school.
All I am telling you all is that school is not as bad as you all think it is. Maybe it has treated you badly in a particular incident.But that does not make home schooling better than school.School will not treat everyone badlYy. Infact most people have glowing memories of school.
Look I agree I am very lucky to have such an amazing life at school. Thank you God. I also agree that you all have nnot been so lucky in this particular aspect. But I ma requesting you to give your kids a chance at school. Maybe life will treat them better. I am saying this from the bottom of my heart because I trully believe that school gives you some immemorial experiences and memories without which people are incomplete.
I request ripdd and all those who ar against school to lay aside your anti school feelings and read the posts of those who support school.Just once. Think about it without being partial.
GIVE SCHOOL A CHANCE.

Happy New year :tu:

ripdd

January 2nd, 2006, 12:14 pm

mystic 22
thanks for your thoughtful reply.
2 quick things.
firstly would you mind just giving the statements of yours that i queried a second reading. particularly the first one. then you will understand why i responded as i did.

secondly.
I request ripdd and all those who ar against school to lay aside your anti school feelings and read the posts of those who support school.Just once. Think about it without being partial.
GIVE SCHOOL A CHANCE.

i am not "anti school". i just don't think it's the ONLY viable option.
i am asking you to consider that.
give homeschool a chance! (as an idea of course! not suggesting you actually try it!!!!!) ;)

Happy New year

and to you aswell. :)

cheers,
ripdd

mystic_22

January 2nd, 2006, 12:50 pm

mystic 22
thanks for your thoughtful reply.
2 quick things.
firstly would you mind just giving the statements of yours that i queried a second reading. particularly the first one. then you will understand why i responded as i did.

ripdd

I have given them a thoughtful reading and I understand why you responded the way you did. I have enormous respect for you. Trust me on that one.
I fully accept and understand what you think and say. But I am an individual with my own views and I have responded to your queries in order to defend my thoughts. Because I believe in what I have said. I have ex[lained all my statements and your queries in my last post.

LuvHP_001

January 3rd, 2006, 10:05 am

Can education take place outside school? Yes. Will it be very efficent? Probably not. As much as I hate school,I have to admit that only if your parents/tutor is absolutely brilliant in every subject can it be possible but school provides neccesary social skills that home-schooling cannot provide. Of course you need some education from your parents because school (unfortunately) does not teach people manners,help develop personalities or other things directly.

IC_Thestrals

January 3rd, 2006, 10:41 pm

IC_Thestrals, I realize you have had a lot of hurtful experiences in your school life. But that is a part of life.You go through these experiences in every part of life. If you don't go through them in school you will have to face them sometime else. It's about experiencing hurt and still being able to go on with life. The whole world will not like you. Nor is the whole world like you. Some people are mean and others nice. You think this only happens in school then you are wrong. It happes every where and all the time. Thats why school is good it teaches you to face rejection and hurt early in life. It helps you later on. Besides children are much better than adults. MUCH MUCH BETTER AND KINDER. Lots of kids are amazing. Maybe a few people in Your school had hurt you. You could have changed schools. Made other friends. Friends protect us. I have had a whole lot of bad experience sin school as well. So bad that there was a point in my life when i faked illness and din't go to school for a month. My parents were paranoid. But then I finally returned. Made new friends and I have a n amazing life. I could never think of life without school. School is life. It's the real worl within four walls. Have you ever thought of this. Children don't commit terrorist attacks bomb blasts rape and murder. Adults do. And adults do this because theye were never taught while they were children. You have to understand a fellow beings pain to be kind. At home you can't do that. It's in school that you understand pain. A guy in your class who you don't like has got hurt and is experiencing excruciating pain. Thats when you feel bad. And you learn that causing pain is not the right thing to do. Get whet I mean??
Send your children to school. They will grow up better human beings.
I have some sad, sad news for you....school is not the real world.

It has occured to me that you are only 16, so I take this into account as I write this but you must know that you are wrong in the most fundamental parts of your argument.

Allow me to use animals as a basic demostration of natural reactions.

A dog that has been beaten, rejected and tormented for a chunk its life does not respond by being nice to those around it. It responds with fear, aggression, and is defensive. People work the same way on the most basic of levels, especially children.

I get the impression that you have never been in my situation. You can send your children off to the wolves to be ravaged. Mine will be homeschooled.

What is the big deal about homeschooling? Can someone give me an answer other than social bonds and "one person can't possibly teach blah blah blah?" Because it has been proven that homeschooled kids have higher IQs than public school ones and also psychologists have only found social deficits in homeschooled kids in abusive homes.

This post was actually directed to IC_Thestrals who has said in one of his posts that kids are mean.
Her post. Some are and some aren't. I would put it at 50/50 and also you have to remember that different people have different views on what is mean.
I am not saying you but a lot of people. When I said school is the real world withing four walls I was trying to argue against this opinion that a few adults have.
The problem is I really can't take your opinion on this seriously as I have been 16 and know what it is like where as you have yet to become an adult. Come back to me when you moved out and are completly on your own for three or so years and tell me if you knew what pain was at 16.
Maybe not enough crayons,or noty enough cool toys to impress your friends with. Not enough paints to finish your favourite painting and you are scared to ask mom or dad. It's the same feeling as not having enough money. Infact when I was 10 I hadf this friend who wanted to set up a colour stall in the fair. There were problems at home and she did not know what to do. She made sketches of different things and gave them to our teachers to buy. The teachers did so. She took the money to buy lots of crayons,paints,clour pencils etc and set up her stall. See??? It's the same feeling.Again it is because in school we go through these experiences that they become easier to handle later on in life.

Honestly, that is really cute but I cannot equate that to the "real world". Crayons are not the same as food. Nor does it make the fact that you didn't balance your checkbook correctly and have to eat Ramen Noodles for three weeks any easier an experience.
What I mean by saying in school you understand pain and at home you don't is that at home you generally meet up with people you like. If you are being home schooled you associate with people you like. And you do not associate with those you do not like.
You learn this from your parents if they raised you right. "If you hit the dog, it makes the dog sad, how would you feel if the dog hits you?"
But in school you learn to be sympathetic and considerate towards the pain of those who you do not like and care about as well.
See above.
Once again I would have to say that my post was a reply to IC_Thestrals and I was basically trying to tell him to send his kids to school cause they will grow up to be good happy human beings and to not stop them from going to school because of his past.
Her kids to school.

I have given your request thoughtful consideration. However, at this time I regret to inform you that your request has been denied. The main reason is due to lack of convincing argument and failure to concieve that perhaps there is suffering in this world and there are lessons to be learned. Me sending my kids to Public School would be admitting that I learned no lesson from my experiences and did not take my suffering seriously.
But I have walked in their shoes. Because I have gone through times when I would have loved to leave school.
Have you? Have you had a group of people who were your best friends decide to spread a dreadful rumor about you (one that the rest of the school could never forgive) because they didn't want to hang out with you anymore. Have you had fingers and toes broken because a pack of boys wanted to beat you up over said rumor? Were you ever afraid to enter a school restroom because the last time you did, the kids duck taped you to the plumbing under the sink and left you there till you screamed yourself horse and a teacher finally heard you two class periods later (the rest of the school thought is was a hoot and the girls who came in wouldn't help). Have you had to walk home with a bloody nose because some snots came out of the woodwork with a bat to your face and you woke up in a puddle of blood and your brand new bike was in the canal and broken? Character building stuff that pain. CHildhood would not have been complete without it.
All I am telling you all is that school is not as bad as you all think it is. Maybe it has treated you badly in a particular incident.
HA! Your sweet, you really are but you look at the world through the eyes of someone who is clearly popular.
But I ma requesting you to give your kids a chance at school. Maybe life will treat them better. I am saying this from the bottom of my heart because I trully believe that school gives you some immemorial experiences and memories without which people are incomplete.
I request ripdd and all those who ar against school to lay aside your anti school feelings and read the posts of those who support school.Just once. Think about it without being partial.
GIVE SCHOOL A CHANCE.

Can you think about it without being partial? It isn't as if I am not sending them to school because I think the teachers are incompetant, I am doing it because the schools in my area are some of the worst in regards to bullying. Rather than address the problem, they have become masters at covering it all up. Move the tormented kids, put the tormenters in IB programs and make them cheerleaders, it is like nothing ever happened. I am really sorry, you seem to mean well, but the worlds isn't all apples, oranges and crayons.

erica_7

January 4th, 2006, 12:20 am

Have you? Have you had a group of people who were your best friends decide to spread a dreadful rumor about you (one that the rest of the school could never forgive) because they didn't want to hang out with you anymore.

I had people do the same thing to me at my old school. It was a public school. Although within a year they'd gotten over the stupid rumour but it didn't change the fact that I didn't have my friends anymore and had to tag along with come stupid idiots for a few months. I did many crazy things during that stage and eventually I moved to a privet school. At first, everyone hated me and said things behind my back like "she thinks she's so hard-core" and then the rumours started again. But I'd learnt from my experience and found friends that didn't judge me on what others said about me and now i'm happier than i've ever been. I go to an all-girls school now so there are a lot of rumours and ***** fights everywhere but as i've learnt from my experience I always make sure i help others that might be going through what i went through. If i hadn't gone through what i had went through i wouldn't be the person i am now.

But i guess i was lucky. There are many people that may not be able to move on from their experiences and that is the reason i think many people are home-schooled. I think it depends on the circumstances though. I'm very happy the way i've been schooled so far but i think others that went through what i did may not be so lucky. Personally, i'm going to send my children to privet schools, but everyone has a different oppinion.

Ps. the privet schools around my area are actually pretty good and the teachers can usually pick up when children are being bullied and try and fix the problem (although sometimes not very well)

IC_Thestrals

January 4th, 2006, 12:41 am

I am sorry to hear this. It always makes me sad to hear when that others have had this happen to them.

If i hadn't gone through what i had went through i wouldn't be the person i am now.
Don't get me wrong, I would not be the person I am today and I do like who I am but part of me is always weary of people now and I have to wonder if I wouldn't have become such an irrationally reclusive person if this didn't happen. I did learn from my mistakes as well, all this stuff happened in middle school. In high school, I clawed myself a safe place to make it through and did fine. I would not mind if they wanted to go to high school. By then I think kids are just a little more mature not to play absolutely cruel games like that. I don't plan on sheltering them. I hope to balance the home learning part with local teams and group lessons in their interests.
My thing is that I think that if I were to have kids, I would care about them enough not to put them through what I went through. Obviously I realise that bad things will happen to them but if I could get them through the first 13 years in one piece metally, than I'll be a good parent, at least up till that point.

ripdd

January 4th, 2006, 3:02 am

this discussion is bringing up something that i and my friends who are parents discuss often
'is pain the only way to learn?'

needless to say my answer to that question is 'no'.

cheers all,
ripdd

DarkDaysAhead

January 4th, 2006, 3:27 am

It depends upon the person, really. For example, I'm doing just fine in a cyber school whereas some kids simply can't do it. One thing I'm thankful for though, is that I now have a better understanding of life...in high school, I was so focused on what was going on around me. I, like almost every other kid in school, couldn't see any further than my own hand when my arm was outstretched. I left my school after completeing 9th grade and started cyber school. After being away from all of that for two years, I realized just how immature and selfish kids are. They're so wrapped up in their own lives that they don't even care about what's going on in the world. I've come to realize that, at this point, those kids know squat and I was just like them. Now, I can admit to not knowing everything and wanting to learn more...that's something most kids I went to school with have yet to learn. I value that knowledge above a lot of other things I'm currently having crammed into my head.:lol:

junika3

January 4th, 2006, 4:26 am

on this one you aren't convincing me of anything!
life is life.

mystic_22 said that school is life. Maybe she meant 'school is very much LIKE life'. I mean, I think school is a lot like life 'out there in the cold, hard world.' I mean, you meet people from different backgrounds, you have your inferiors and superiors, you have to do your work, you get time off, you get and give respect and there are people you like, people you dislike. I mean, its a lot like life. But then, school IS a humungously important part of life.

Reven

January 4th, 2006, 6:52 am

Some are and some aren't. I would put it at 50/50 and also you have to remember that different people have different views on what is mean.
The good 50 % is definetly worth the bad 50 %.

Have you? Have you had a group of people who were your best friends decide to spread a dreadful rumor about you (one that the rest of the school could never forgive) because they didn't want to hang out with you anymore. Have you had fingers and toes broken because a pack of boys wanted to beat you up over said rumor? Were you ever afraid to enter a school restroom because the last time you did, the kids duck taped you to the plumbing under the sink and left you there till you screamed yourself horse and a teacher finally heard you two class periods later (the rest of the school thought is was a hoot and the girls who came in wouldn't help). Have you had to walk home with a bloody nose because some snots came out of the woodwork with a bat to your face and you woke up in a puddle of blood and your brand new bike was in the canal and broken? Character building stuff that pain. CHildhood would not have been complete without it.
I am sorry. Those kids were horrible....it angers me.

I have got the tar beaten out of me many times. Over and over and over again. I had my blood spilt along the the hall way numerous times...tripped by others down a flight of stairs on a weekly (sometimes daily) basis.

People beat the tar out of me when I needed to go the nurse. So I ended up puking in the hallway only to be thrown into my own puke by these bullies. And held down in it for an hour (no one patrols the hallways untill passing period).

And everything that has happened to me at high school is worth it...why you may ask? It isn't because of the education. It is because of the people I have meet there (people I would not of met otherwise). The friendships I have made at high school are worth all the beatings. I am by no means popular (for if I was I wouldn't get beaten), but the friendships I did form are worth it all. I have learned alot about people at high school, not through teachers and education, but by meeting people. The good and the bad....the good outweighs the bad, maybe not by numbers, but they do outweigh the bad.

It might not of been worth it for you (it appears to have been a truly horrible time for you and for that I am sorry), but that doesn't mean it isn't worth it for others.

junika3

January 4th, 2006, 7:39 am

And everything that has happened to me at high school is worth it...why you may ask? It isn't because of the education. It is because of the people I have meet there (people I would not of met otherwise). The friendships I have made at high school are worth all the beatings. I am by no means popular (for if I was I wouldn't get beaten), but the friendships I did form are worth it all. I have learned alot about people at high school, not through teachers and education, but by meeting people. The good and the bad....the good outweighs the bad, maybe not by numbers, but they do outweigh the bad.

I TOTALLY agree with you. What you're saying makes perfect sense.

And learning to deal with these sort of problems, with very little help from teachers, counsellors and parents DO making you a stronger and more independant person. Whether you admit it or not, its true. Life's got its ups and downs, and dealing with the downs IS an up. It'll no doubt help you later in life.

mystic_22

January 4th, 2006, 11:09 am

I have some sad, sad news for you....school is not the real world.

It has occured to me that you are only 16, so I take this into account as I write this but you must know that you are wrong in the most fundamental parts of your argument.
I have already explained my self on the school being the real world statement. And I did not say that school is the real world. I said it is like the real world.
Besides what is this thing with me being 16. We are not deciding between right and wrong here. We are sharing opinions. So stop bringing in an age difference and stop showing that you are elder and therefore you are right. How do you know I am 16. I can be anything. You are just trusting a computer screen. So stpop with the age difference. I might also add that you have not pointed out anything wrong with my fundemental statements. You have just opposed my views.

Allow me to use animals as a basic demostration of natural reactions.

A dog that has been beaten, rejected and tormented for a chunk its life does not respond by being nice to those around it. It responds with fear, aggression, and is defensive. People work the same way on the most basic of levels, especially children.

I get the impression that you have never been in my situation. You can send your children off to the wolves to be ravaged. Mine will be homeschooled.
Whoa are you not being too strong. To be ravaged by the wolves???? What is wrong with you???
The wolves?? Honestly!Do you realise that you are insulting some of the best people who have ever lived by saying let them be ravaged by the wolves. Are you trying to say that everyone is school are wolves??? Mother Teresa was a school principal. Would you call her a ravaging wolf???
And about the dog part agreed that if a child is treated badly he becomes aggresive. If treated nicely he comes back to normal. But school does not treat kids badly. You school might have treated you badly. THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN TO THE REST OF THE WORLD. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU WILL NOT HAPPEN TO EVERYONE ELSE.
And Because one fine school and a few people treated you badly does not make all schools bad.
Mind you there are many cases where the parents abuse the child and school is his only refuge.

What is the big deal about homeschooling? Can someone give me an answer other than social bonds and "one person can't possibly teach blah blah blah?" Because it has been proven that homeschooled kids have higher IQs than public school ones and also psychologists have only found social deficits in homeschooled kids in abusive homes.
There is no big deal about homeschooling. Homeschooling is good. No problems. All we are saying that school is not as bad as you think it to be and that school is amazing place too.Also the fact that school leaves you with some amamzing memories and experiences which makes a person feel happier and more fulfilled.Take it froma happy school goer that the memories school leaves you with are irreplacable.And do you ahve proof or are you just saying that homeschooled children have more IQ

The problem is I really can't take your opinion on this seriously as I have been 16 and know what it is like where as you have yet to become an adult. Come back to me when you moved out and are completly on your own for three or so years and tell me if you knew what pain was at 16.
Again you come back to being 16. I am not going to spend anymore time about the age factor I have made myself clear in the beginning.
And this thing that you have in your mind that grown ups are the only ones that understand pain is utter rubbish. Suppose a 10 tear old's mother dies and a 30 year old's mother dies will you say that only the 30 year old understands and feels the pain and loss. What is with you. Anyone who has gone through a painful experience understands pain.

Honestly, that is really cute but I cannot equate that to the "real world". Crayons are not the same as food. Nor does it make the fact that you didn't balance your checkbook correctly and have to eat Ramen Noodles for three weeks any easier an experience.
Cute or no cute it is true. Besides I never compared crayons and food. I compared the my friends' need for money to a grwon ups need for money. The sorrow she went through and the extra work she put in to get money when she did not have enough was the same sorow and effort a grown up experiences when he is in desparate need for money. It is about the universal crave and need for money that all human beings go through. What they want to do with that money is a different matter.

You learn this from your parents if they raised you right. "If you hit the dog, it makes the dog sad, how would you feel if the dog hits you?"

Totally parents do teach you that. All I said was that school also teaches you that and you learn it in a more practical way. What if the parent does not teach the child??
And I have no clue what you mean by the dog hits you back part??

I have given your request thoughtful consideration. However, at this time I regret to inform you that your request has been denied. The main reason is due to lack of convincing argument and failure to concieve that perhaps there is suffering in this world and there are lessons to be learned. Me sending my kids to Public School would be admitting that I learned no lesson from my experiences and did not take my suffering seriously.
Glad to know that you have given it consideration. About lack of proper argument that is your point of view but I beg to disagree. And I have explained all your queries. Once again you have not pointed out anything wrong in my fundemental statements. You just opposed them. About not understanding that the world contains a lot of sufferiing thats all you know. If you knew me better you would think differently. But you do not so no more said.
You do not need to send your children to public school send them to private school. And it will not mean you have not learnt from your experiences. It just shows you have decided to brave life once again. I REPEAT JUST BEACAUSE ONE SCHOOL TREATED YOU BADLY DOES NOT MEAN THAT SCHOOLS AROUND THE WORLD ARE LIKE THAT. IT DOES NOT MEAN EVERYONE ELSE WILL GO THROUGH WHAT YOU WENT THROUGH.

Have you? Have you had a group of people who were your best friends decide to spread a dreadful rumor about you (one that the rest of the school could never forgive) because they didn't want to hang out with you anymore. Have you had fingers and toes broken because a pack of boys wanted to beat you up over said rumor? Were you ever afraid to enter a school restroom because the last time you did, the kids duck taped you to the plumbing under the sink and left you there till you screamed yourself horse and a teacher finally heard you two class periods later (the rest of the school thought is was a hoot and the girls who came in wouldn't help). Have you had to walk home with a bloody nose because some snots came out of the woodwork with a bat to your face and you woke up in a puddle of blood and your brand new bike was in the canal and broken? Character building stuff that pain. CHildhood would not have been complete without it.
If you really want to know believe me I have. If not equally traumatic experiences then much worse. But I made a choice to be brave and went back to school. I made amazing friends and the most amazing life.

HA! Your sweet, you really are but you look at the world through the eyes of someone who is clearly popular.
Trust me thats not the case. I have been the one who used to get kicked around,teased,disliked and the butt of all jokes. What I am today is different. But thats because I stayed on and found out who I really am. And becasue of that one choice I am the luckiest girl alive.

it without being partial? It isn't as if I am not sending them to school because I think the teachers are incompetant, I am doing it because the schools in my area are some of the worst in regards to bullying. Rather than address the problem, they have become masters at covering it all up. Move the tormented kids, put the tormenters in IB programs and make them cheerleaders, it is like nothing ever happened. I am really sorry, you seem to mean well, but the worlds isn't all apples, oranges and crayons.
Then send them to school in a different area. Or move to a different area. Life is not about apples,oranges and crayons. It's about being brave and giving things a second chance. It's about living so that when you die you know that you have trully lived. So that you can close those eyes with beautiful memories. And believe me that school gives you those memories. Thos few minutes that you can never forget. That make you laugh for the rest of your life. School is amazing. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU WILL NOT HAPPEN TO EVERYONE ELSE. You are deciding your children's life based on your experiences.Do not do that. Give them a chance to experience for themselves.
Your views are your views and I appreciate them for their own reasons. But just remember that there is another point of view with equally good reason.

yahwehgrl

January 4th, 2006, 8:38 pm

Wow, four pages in and it's already getting dirty...

Just a tidbit: Up until the eighth grade, a homeschooled child will not be socially handicapped (can't think of a better word, sry) as long as the parents get their child involved in extracurricular activities, i.e. soccer, baseball, tae-kwon-do. That is, up until the eighth grade.

Also, people keep mentioning that Emerson is fine and was homeschooled his entire life. Are any of you qualified to say this? I'm not saying that he isn't, just that making assumptions isn't a good way to support an argument.

A lot of school is a waste of time (which I make use of by sleeping. Funnily, I get better grades than just about everyone else in my classes). Really, the most interesting parts of school for me are the minutes between classes and lunch. Most of what I learn in school is in the first minutes of every class - the rest of each block is spent doing review and homework. Still, I'd hate to be homeschooled. Some of the people I know I first met at school, and not all my classes are unbearably boring. Hopefully in the fall I'll be going to Governor's School - a publicly funded school that you have to audition for; I'm not sure if that counts as public or not.

kjty2k

January 4th, 2006, 9:27 pm

I've been reading some of the posts and I feel as if I must back mystic_22 up a little here (as I am 16 as well), not saying that I completly agree...but here goes.

The problem is I really can't take your opinion on this seriously as I have been 16 and know what it is like where as you have yet to become an adult. Come back to me when you moved out and are completly on your own for three or so years and tell me if you knew what pain was at 16.

Firstly, do not underestimate that just because I'm 16 I don't know pain. Growing up in a household where you can't talk to your Dad about anything that matters, that's pain. Growing up feeling like you don't matter because you are younger and that your opinions don't matter, that's pain. Waking up and going into a living room to watch your 56 year old uncle with Down syndrome die in front of you, that's pain. Getting a call at 8 at night saying that your Great Aunt (who was really like a grandmother) died, that's pain. Having your dad talk about putting your dog (that you've had since you were a year old) to sleep before it's necessary and having to think about that prospect for weeks, that's pain.Getting made fun of because I'm not a size 2, that's pain. Getting made fun of, period, that's pain. Having a good friend stab you in the back, that's pain. Having your best friends move away to a different state and then not hearing from them again, that's pain. Feeling like your privacy has been horribly violated, that's pain....get my point? I may only be 16, but I've been through a lot. Yes, school put me through some of that, but I think I'm a better person because of it. Age shouldn't matter here. You don't know what experiences I have been through (except the ones listed above), you can't know what's going on in every life everywhere. There are people who are younger, who have been through much more out there...one of the most useful things my dad always said was "you never have to look very far to find someone more unfortunate than yourself" and school has always proved that...when I see someone walking down the halls with the pencils they've had to make do with for years, having tatty clothes, stuff like that. I also see a lot of the stuff I don't want to see at school, I know the type of person I don't want to be because of school. Middle school is the worst. People make fun of everyone and expect certain things, and that you have to be a certain way, and all that jazz. However, high school is very much like real life. It's work. You go to school, you have responsibility to get to class on time, get good grades, it's prepping you for your future, it isn't your furture, which makes it all the more stressful. Think about this "If I don't get an A in this class, I won't have a 4.0 G.P.A, my dream college won't accept me, what do I do now?" It teaches you, maybe indirectly, about relationships, both friendships and otherwise...including teacher/student, and how to deal with teachers who grade unfairly, and teach horribly, and all that. That teaches you that you have to put up with people you don't like, and sometimes there isn't anything you can do about it because you have no power, and that preps you to. School is preparation. It's experiences, it's life, at least for 12 years it is. WIll life get harder after school? Probably. Could it get easier? Sure. If you can open your business, answer to nobody, make a lot of money and be in a job you love...there will always be streesors, life will never be perfect, but there you go. Public school teaches things homeschooling couldn't. Homeschooling teaches things public schools couldn't. But it's give and take, and it's up to the students and the parents in the matter of school. I can't make any decisions. I can only say what I think, and there you have it. Oh yeah, and if I didn't go to public school, I probably would not have the friends I do now, and that would make me very sad.

ripdd

January 4th, 2006, 9:57 pm

hi kelly. you are absolutely right. age is no indicator of pain suffered or even experience had. i know teenagers with more understanding than grandparents.

*however* one thing age does give you that IS not possible another way is a sense of perspective.

whether you learn from that or not is a choice of course. but i NOW believe that it is always worth listening to people with more life experience than myself - at least initially - in case i can learn something from them. (sometimes i don't feel i can!)

i would in this instance point to your very own signature (which is such a wonderful quote !)

this is where it's hard to say it, because the truth is that i functioned very well in the world when i left home and got a job over the other side of the country as i was turning 17. most people thought i was older and i was very intelligent etc.
now that i am 20 years on from that i look back at my opinions and some of the choices i made and cringe at my naivete.
that's not a critisism of myself! or any other 17 year old.
think of it this way. if i hadn't learnt anything in 20 years that would pretty sad!

my rambling here is to try and explain how in a conversation like this it is so hard to respectfully say to someone "i can see why you think like that. i felt a similar way at your age. now with a wider perspective i don't" because if you have any memory at all of being 16 you will know that those kinds of comments can be instantly infuriating and feel condescending, no matter the purity of motive.

i apologise for making the first of those comments. i stand by my opinion but also admit that it lacked discretion to inject it in this way.

the only thing i keep banging away saying, which i don't feel acknowledged is that this is not a topic with only one right answer. different situations may well have a few good choices you can make. there may be 2 or 3 great options. you have to make a call. i also think that what may work for one individual can be disastrous for someone else.

the question asked for the topic was 'can education take place outside school?'. my answer is YES. to the 'can'. i didn't say 'must'. i didn't say 'must not'. yes it most certainly can. and in a rich and satisfying way.

(ps mystic 22 - my apologies for not acknowledging this comment.
I have enormous respect for you. Trust me on that one.
i appreciate you saying that very much.)

IC_Thestrals

January 4th, 2006, 11:12 pm

Oh Boy, I tried to be patient but now you asked for it. :)
oI said it is like the real world.
It really isn't. You have no freedoms in school. You have no life altering decisions outside of whether to get pizza or spaghetti in the lunch line. Anything you do in school means nothing once you leave it, except in college. The friends you make will divide into their chosen schools and you won't see them again until your 10 year reunion but only if they live that long. School is an alternate dimension that children want desperately to believe is the real world in order to feel that their existence is justified, to make the fact that once you leave high school everything changes so abruptly it is like jumping into a frozen lake a little more bearable. In other words, it is something that kids say to feel grown up. Meanwhile, all the grown up stuff is happening at home. Home is where the groceries are bought, the checks are balanced, and the bills are paid.
Besides what is this thing with me being 16. We are not deciding between right and wrong here. We are sharing opinions. So stop bringing in an age difference and stop showing that you are elder and therefore you are right. How do you know I am 16. I can be anything. You are just trusting a computer screen. So stpop with the age difference.
I am going to because it makes all the difference in the world. Are you saying that you are lying about your age? I take what you say as truth unless you tell me it is a lie than you cannot be trusted. Assuming that you are, at 16 you are a sophomore in high school, unless you skipped a grade, you haven't even reached junior year yet which is the hardest. This makes a difference. Right now school is going good for you, you are partial. I doubt you would really feel the same if things start going horribly. I hope things stay peachy for you, I am just making a point that since things are good (you said so yourself) you can't be trusted to provide an adequate analysis of the schools disposition because your opinion is greatly swayed by your personal experience. You don't seem to realize that you are one person in a school of possibly hundreds. Please, look beyond the point on the tip of your nose and try to imagine a situation in which not going to school and having fun would be possible.
I might also add that you have not pointed out anything wrong with my fundemental statements. You have just opposed my views.
I just have above. If you didn't get it, it is the whole part about you only being one person and your views are greatly biased because you are a blissfully unaware teen.
What is wrong with you???
Why would you say something like this? There is nothing wrong with a person who has an opinion that differs from yours. If you respond with something like this again I will report you. I deserve a better response than insults.
The wolves?? Honestly!Do you realise that you are insulting some of the best people who have ever lived by saying let them be ravaged by the wolves. Are you trying to say that everyone is school are wolves??? Mother Teresa was a school principal. Would you call her a ravaging wolf???
I insulted no one. You are putting words in my mouth. This tactic is called a straw man, it makes me very angry when someone tries to use this on me so pardon me if I light it on fire and defecate in the ashes. If I wanted to call everyone who went to school a ravaging wolf I would obviously have to call myself that if you would get off your righteous horse long enough to remember that I said I have been to school. The ravaging wolves are that large percentage of blissfully unaware people who do horrible things to people who are different than them. This can be anything from a creative nickname to duct taping them to the plumbing for four hours. Those are the wolves. Where did I say anything about Mother Theresa in my post? What a desperate and shameless tactic to try and discredit me.
And about the dog part agreed that if a child is treated badly he becomes aggresive. If treated nicely he comes back to normal. But school does not treat kids badly. You school might have treated you badly.
Niceness does not correct it. Years and years of therapy does. I thought I made it clear that I was treated badly? There was no MAY HAVE, they DID
THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN TO THE REST OF THE WORLD. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU WILL NOT HAPPEN TO EVERYONE ELSE.
You can look into the face of every bullied child and tell them this with absolute certainty? You have the authority to speak for everyone in the human race on this subject? You, who are so happy at school, are obviously the expert on being picked on and tormented.
And Because one fine school and a few people treated you badly does not make all schools bad.
Mind you there are many cases where the parents abuse the child and school is his only refuge.

I agree with this but I don't plan on abusing my children so I really don't see your point.
There is no big deal about homeschooling. Homeschooling is good. No problems.
Than what is your vendetta against it?! You just sat here and pleaded with me to send my children to public school but you agree there is nothing wrong with homeschooling?
All we are saying that school is not as bad as you think it to be and that school is amazing place too.Also the fact that school leaves you with some amamzing memories and experiences which makes a person feel happier and more fulfilled.Take it froma happy school goer that the memories school leaves you with are irreplacable.
I never said school was and even said I wouldn't mind my kids going to high school if they choose to do so. You are the one with the big issue with what I feel.

This is where the age factor comes in...you are only 16! How can you know you won't replace those memories with memories of your wedding or something else? I wish we could talk in ten+ years, I am positive you will agree with me.
And do you ahve proof or are you just saying that homeschooled children have more IQ
Do you have access to peer-reviewed articles? I use medical and scientific sources.
Again you come back to being 16. I am not going to spend anymore time about the age factor I have made myself clear in the beginning.
Nor am I since I actually took the time to explain why it matters, I already know you won't agree, so why waste anymore server space on the issue.
I compared the my friends' need for money to a grwon ups need for money. The sorrow she went through and the extra work she put in to get money when she did not have enough was the same sorow and effort a grown up experiences when he is in desparate need for money. It is about the universal crave and need for money that all human beings go through. What they want to do with that money is a different matter.

Quote:
And this thing that you have in your mind that grown ups are the only ones that understand pain is utter rubbish. Suppose a 10 tear old's mother dies and a 30 year old's mother dies will you say that only the 30 year old understands and feels the pain and loss. What is with you. Anyone who has gone through a painful experience understands pain.

Yes you understand pain...do you want a cookie? What I mean is pain completely unrelated to you. So your enemy was put in the hospital? Big deal, he was my enemy, not worth my tears, that is not pain. So your mum dies? Very very sad, lots of pain, but you will get over it with time and possibly therapy. The pain that I mean is the pain a kid will not know till they are out on their own and have things that depend on them for their lives. When you have to go hungry to feed those dependants or if you get in trouble at your job because you didn't get a report in on time that was for a high profile case and had to be turned in now. Or that you have to go in to work even though you are throwing up and should be at the hospital because if you miss one more day at work you will have no electricity because you have been too sick to pay the bills. No mum to feed you chicken soup and pick up you work for you, you alone have to do it.
The home schooled kids I know (I know a lot) do extensive volunteer work for the community. I worked at the zoo and our entire day shift volunteer staff was comprised of home schooled kids. I assure you they were normal and the big thing was they worked five times harder than our weekend staff of public school kids. I am sorry and no I do not have cited sources for this but the home schooled kids had a much better grasp of reality than the public school ones who hardly ever showed up and you had to goad with a cattle prod to get them to lift a food bowl.

Cute or no cute it is true.
No it isn't. It is your opinion, kindly do not mistake it for reality.

What if the parent does not teach the child??
So what? It isn't the schools job to make sure that sort of thing is taught.
And I have no clue what you mean by the dog hits you back part??

I was giving an example of what a parent would say to a small child in response to the child striking the dog. The said parent is attempting to teach the child sympathy.
nce again you have not pointed out anything wrong in my fundemental statements. You just opposed them.
See the top please.
About not understanding that the world contains a lot of sufferiing thats all you know. If you knew me better you would think differently. But you do not so no more said.
I know you better than you think (at least in a general sense) I am a Psychology major and I have to say that when people "post from the heart" it gives me useful insight into their personality and what makes them tick. I already know how you’re going to respond to this, I only hope that I have overestimated your anger and underestimated your bewilderment. :)
You do not need to send your children to public school send them to private school. And it will not mean you have not learnt from your experiences.
The great thing about children is they are the legal property of whomever’s loins they sprung forth from. I will place my children where I deem fit. I would like to ask you to stop trying to convert me to your Public School religion because I find it rather offensive. :)
It just shows you have decided to brave life once again.
It is really nice that you are all Harry Potterish but that also means irrationality. I am an incredibly rational human being and it really only takes me putting my hand on the stove once to realize it burns. I wouldn't call the second time around bravery, I would call it stupidity.
I REPEAT JUST BEACAUSE ONE SCHOOL TREATED YOU BADLY DOES NOT MEAN THAT SCHOOLS AROUND THE WORLD ARE LIKE THAT. IT DOES NOT MEAN EVERYONE ELSE WILL GO THROUGH WHAT YOU WENT THROUGH.
Good golly, you really want to drive that part home don't you? Well my extroverted little tidbit, I was picked on, my companion was picked on right alongside me so I would say that makes our theoretical children genetically predisposed to bullying. I don't care what happens to everyone else, I would care about my children.
If you really want to know believe me I have. If not equally traumatic experiences then much worse. But I made a choice to be brave and went back to school. I made amazing friends and the most amazing life.

I am sorry you were bullied. I handle situations differently than you; you are going to have to accept that some people are different than you. This is the real world via internet. Someone who does not think you are suggesting something completely genius. Shrug it off and move along. I won't cave, my sig says it all. Really, you could not have picked a worse person to preach to (except maybe my pal ComicBookWorm, that girl can argue :D).
Trust me thats not the case. I have been the one who used to get kicked around,teased,disliked and the butt of all jokes. What I am today is different. But thats because I stayed on and found out who I really am. And becasue of that one choice I am the luckiest girl alive.

Lucky you. I really am happy for you. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN TO EVERYONE!
Then send them to school in a different area. Or move to a different area.
I'm not moving.
Life is not about apples,oranges and crayons. It's about being brave and giving things a second chance.
Thanks for quoting me, I feel loved. Oh, that second chance thing is hooey. Everyday was a second chance but it didn't get better till I left. My parents did not have the means to home school me but I would have opted for it in a heartbeat and regret not bussing down to my Grandma's when she offered to do it.
It's about living so that when you die you know that you have trully lived.
Your not being a bit too strong are you? School is a joke, the sooner you learn that the better off you are. If I died now I know I have truly lived because I have traveled the world and did what I wanted to do. If I die now my only regret is wasting my youth in school.
So that you can close those eyes with beautiful memories.
:rotfl: Darling, you are cracking me up. Did you not read anything I posted? The most wonderful memory I have of school is the 5 pound calzones they sold in the Al A Carte line but I can make those at home now.
And believe me that school gives you those memories. Thos few minutes that you can never forget. That make you laugh for the rest of your life. School is amazing.
I have systematically replaced those shoddy memories with ones that are so much deeper and more meaningful.
YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU WILL NOT HAPPEN TO EVERYONE ELSE. You are deciding your children's life based on your experiences.Do not do that. Give them a chance to experience for themselves.
I am deciding my children's education based on my own education experiences, I beg you to leave their theoretical life and my real one out of it.
Your views are your views and I appreciate them for their own reasons. But just remember that there is another point of view with equally good reason.

No your reason is not equally good. The only argument that you have presented is that you have fun in school so everyone else will have fun in school. This is such a blatant lie that I don't even know why I took the time to type out this ludicrously long response other than that I actually do respect your opinion and wanted to give you a proper argument. It is clear that you don't respect mine. Saying that you do doesn't erase all the preaching and converting and manipulating you attempted. Please lay off on the caps lock..

If I don't get an A in this class, I won't have a 4.0 G.P.A, my dream college won't accept me, what do I do now?"
That not true. They don't look at your grades. They look at how much you have donated to the school and what your SAT/ACT scores are. You can get C's in everything and still get accepted to Harvard if you have 90K per semester and a 1200+ on your SATs. Thats how I got in (with a 1450 SAT) but I didn't have the money and my scholar ship would only cover 25% since it was out of state. So I took some years off and did a what I wanted to do (scholarships stay good so long as you don't start school, but once you start you have to use it or lose it) than I came back to my local school. Most jobs don't care where you go and unless you like getting completely trashed I would look a little closer at that dream school. Most are glorifyed keg parties.

Ripdd I agree with you by the way. I am not overlooking you, I just have nothing to say other than I agree and I try to condense those comments.

yahwehgrl

January 4th, 2006, 11:32 pm

Assuming that you are, at 16 you are a sophomore in high school, unless you skipped a grade, you haven't even reached junior year yet which is the hardest.

Actually, in the US at least, most people are sixteen in their junior year at high school. I'm fifteen (sixteen on January 19th!) and am a sophomore in high school.

Darling, you are cracking me up. Did you not read anything I posted? The most wonderful memory I have of school is the 5 pound calzones they sold in the Al A Carte line but I can make those at home now.

Wow, where'd you go to highschool? Our food is disgusting. Or at least I think so, the texture of everything is wrong.

Some reasons to not homeschool your high school-aged kids , other than "high school is more fun": On some level, though, school does prepare you for real life - at least, dealing with your superiors (teachers) maturely and not getting upset over everything that doesn't go your way. It's different from dealing with your parents, to whom you can say or do almost anything without getting kicked out. With people outside your family, you have to learn how not to step over boundaries, and how if you do. And with teachers, principals, etc., if you step over that line there can be serious consequences that affect more than whether or not you start at the next game.

Also, there is dealing with competition between you and your peers and meeting people you would otherwise never talk to or get involved with. Take, for example, my Creative Writing class last year. My first impression was that most of the class was stuck here because it was the only class available. At the beginning, I stuck everyone in a category: ghetto, or prep. And stoner - at least they and I had the same taste in music. Most of the people in there I would never have spoken to if it weren't for that class (they weren't teens you'd find on a youth soccer team). However cliche this may sound, by the end of the semester I realized I was wrong about every one of them.

*however* one thing age does give you that IS not possible another way is a sense of perspective.

You know, I think I might take my age off my profile; it's getting aggravating how my opinions are mostly disregarded as naivete, because in the upper right-hand corner of my posts it says "Age:15". Not that this has happened yet in this thread. I might be young, but that doesn't automatically make my perception or intelligence any less than, say, someone a few years older than me.

And a note to the other under-18 posters here: Using correct grammar and punctuation and avoiding all caps just might make your posts sound less teen-aged.

And do you ahve proof or are you just saying that homeschooled children have more IQ

There's actually prove that sticking a child with an above average IQ in a public school can lower his/her IQ, because the classes aren't always challenging enough for the kid. Right now the only proof I have is the Milwaukee Project; I'll find some more later.

IC_Thestrals

January 4th, 2006, 11:41 pm

Wow, where'd you go to highschool?
I went to an art school which was wonderful because it was full of oddballs like me and had even more homeschooled kids who decided to give high school a shot. High was cool but I did not go to a normal high school. I was brutally tormented in middle school, so much so that I was going to drop out if I did not get accepted to the art school because I could not rejoin all those idiots at my local school. They had calzones at both so I suppose it was a county thing.
at least, dealing with your superiors (teachers) maturely and not getting upset over everything that doesn't go your way.
But volunteering taught them that too. If you were mean or had an attitude to your supervisor (me) you were sent home (by me).
Also, there is dealing with competition between you and your peers and meeting people you would otherwise never talk to or get involved with.
There are still local sports teams and karate or horse riding or things that you can't learn at your average school. Your are only limited by what your parents condone.

TonyJoe

January 5th, 2006, 1:10 am

It really isn't. You have no freedoms in school. You have no life altering decisions outside of whether to get pizza or spaghetti in the lunch line. Anything you do in school means nothing once you leave it, except in college. The friends you make will divide into their chosen schools and you won't see them again until your 10 year reunion but only if they live that long. School is an alternate dimension that children want desperately to believe is the real world in order to feel that their existence is justified, to make the fact that once you leave high school everything changes so abruptly it is like jumping into a frozen lake a little more bearable. In other words, it is something that kids say to feel grown up. Meanwhile, all the grown up stuff is happening at home. Home is where the groceries are bought, the checks are balanced, and the bills are paid.Lol, ok, this is the single most cynical view that one could possibly hold of high school. Yes, you have relatively few freedoms in school (I found out the hard way freshmen year), but that’s not to say any, at least in America. I doubt that a student would find themselves more free if they were home schooled though :p.

As for not having any life altering decisions that are not true. It varies from person to person. Lots of peoples' road to self-destruction begins in their high school years so yeah, life-altering decisions can be made in school.

As for friends, you keep in touch with, that’s up to you. One of the best friends that I've ever had is a freshman in college right now, and we're going ice-skating Saturday. The vast majority of people you are "friends" with in high school, you wont be friends with in six months (I actually sign year books "hope your still alive and not on crack in ten years, I wont care though"), nonetheless, great friendships are forged.

This is one of the reasons that I would prefer my kids be educated in a school, rather than at home, the people. I find the people in my school to be far from "wolves;" the teachers are awesome the students really diverse (reflective of my region) and their experiences and interests offer quite a bit more to learning about the world than my house does. If I had to be educated with my brother at home, I would have been beaten up daily and I wouldn’t know anything outside of the bible.

I'm sure that at some schools bullying is a massive problem ( but at my school we have organizations that address that kind of thing (we just started a chapter of the gay-straight alliance in addition to some that already existed) and we recently had a lecture on bullying from my state’s spokesperson for New Jersey something or other for bullying something... she was a former Miss Teen USA so I don’t remember anything besides "wow...bullying bad...wow..." :lol:, but the points been made, bullying is incredibly scarring, and really just plain stupid. I just have above. If you didn't get it, it is the whole part about you only being one person and your views are greatly biased because you are a blissfully unaware teen. Yep, everyone's biased, after all, we're just a sum total of our life experiences. But I wouldn’t say that its because I’m a "blissfully unaware teen." I recognize that there are crappier situations than the one I have, but I truly do believe that overall people are good, including those in public schools. Education can definitely take place outside of school (and if some isn't the kid's probably going to be screwed up anyway), but I definitely think that primary education is better when undergone with people you don’t live with.

By the way, the straw man bit, excellent line, very gangsta :rotfl:

DarkDaysAhead

January 5th, 2006, 1:49 am

The ravaging wolves are that large percentage of blissfully unaware people who do horrible things to people who are different than them. This can be anything from a creative nickname to duct taping them to the plumbing for four hours. Those are the wolves.

I have to agree with you. I was made fun of and so is my brother who is currently attending the school I left after completing 9th grade. He was off sick for about 4 weeks and when it came time to go back, he was crying because he was afraid. That about ripped me apart because it made me remember just how bad it was and I was actually afraid for him. How did that saying go? "Sticks and stones may break your bones but names will never hurt you..." Something like that...either way, I don't buy it. I fell so far into depression after 7th grade (High school includes grades 7 through 12 here.) that I cried, literally, every day for hours at a time. I was kept where I was because we could find no alternatives but even two years later, I was still suffering. I almost completely stopped eating in a bid to lose weight even though I've never been told I am fat because I'm not.

I contracted Social Anxiety as well so 9th grade was hell...at that point, the simple act of someone behind me whispering to someone else scared the hell out of me because, "They have to be talking about me...they're saying mean things about me...what's wrong with me?" Rationally I knew nothing was wrong but it's that feeling, ya know? I still have that feeling every so often and it about drives me crazy. I hate using the phone now and I, during the summer, only feel comfortable when I'm wearing my sun glasses. I fully believe that, if I had been withdrawn earlier than I was, I'd be better off. However, I wasn't so I'm forced to deal with a **** load of problems.

The problem is I really can't take your opinion on this seriously as I have been 16 and know what it is like where as you have yet to become an adult. Come back to me when you moved out and are completly on your own for three or so years and tell me if you knew what pain was at 16.

I would hope, though, that if someone shows intelligence and maturity you'd take them seriously despite their age.;)

What I mean by saying in school you understand pain and at home you don't is that at home you generally meet up with people you like. If you are being home schooled you associate with people you like. And you do not associate with those you do not like.

That's not all there is to it though. You don't "understand" pain and then all is well. I felt so much pain in 7th grade that I genuinely wished that I wasn't alive anymore. I went to school and took **** from my classmates then came home and it was no better. As I'm still relatively new here, I don't expect many to know this but my home life is no better than my school life was. My Dad is an alcoholic and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Experiencing what I did at school didn't help me to understand pain, it helped me to block it out by never giving myself the chance to be hurt. Hell, I'm still afraid to answer the phone when my supposed boyfriend calls because I can't risk allowing him to hurt me. He wanted to give us dating a second try (As I fled the first time as well...not that he knows.) and I did the same thing I did the first time over again. I won't answer his calls and I do my best to avoid seeing him which is made easy by my not going to school. If I had been withdrawn before I got to this point, I'd be normal, I know I would because I wouldn't have been given the chance to get this bad.:sigh:

I'm doing better teaching myself than I ever did at school. My classes push me and I've gotten a bit more of a backbone but I needed to get away from ignorant little jerks to do so. I don't get along well with kids my age, I tend to shy away from them.

But in school you learn to be sympathetic and considerate towards the pain of those who you do not like and care about as well.

You can learn that in the real world without pulling your hair out.;)

Have you? Have you had a group of people who were your best friends decide to spread a dreadful rumor about you (one that the rest of the school could never forgive) because they didn't want to hang out with you anymore. Have you had fingers and toes broken because a pack of boys wanted to beat you up over said rumor? Were you ever afraid to enter a school restroom because the last time you did, the kids duck taped you to the plumbing under the sink and left you there till you screamed yourself horse and a teacher finally heard you two class periods later (the rest of the school thought is was a hoot and the girls who came in wouldn't help). Have you had to walk home with a bloody nose because some snots came out of the woodwork with a bat to your face and you woke up in a puddle of blood and your brand new bike was in the canal and broken? Character building stuff that pain. CHildhood would not have been complete without it.

I'm really very sorry...that's terrible.:(

Can you think about it without being partial? It isn't as if I am not sending them to school because I think the teachers are incompetant, I am doing it because the schools in my area are some of the worst in regards to bullying. Rather than address the problem, they have become masters at covering it all up. Move the tormented kids, put the tormenters in IB programs and make them cheerleaders, it is like nothing ever happened. I am really sorry, you seem to mean well, but the worlds isn't all apples, oranges and crayons.

I have the same problem here. My public school would much rather cover up their problems than actually deal with them. How long will it take them to realized that getting detention is considered "cool" these days?:rolleyes: My neighbor was so nasty that she went to the high school two or three years before me and used all of that time to spread rumors about me. By the time I arrived, I was pretty well known. Let me tell you how fun sexual harassment is if you don't already know.:rolleyes: I had one friend who eventually had enough of being bullied because of me...she quit coming around me and I was left alone. I'd get home and just go to bed and cry...my parents couldn't help because they can't even help themselves.:grumble:

Anyways, the principal said that he couldn't really do anything because he hadn't caught her and, "she, like you, has always been a good student. She's never been in trouble before this." Please, if only teachers were bright enough to catch kids, yeah? She was never a nice person.:no: Then, another kid started sexually harassing me everywhere I went...couldn't get away from him. He stalked me all over the school so I eventually told on him, which I was told to do, and was ignored...by the counselor!!:wow:

My Dad eventually got sick of it and took me out saying, "She won't be back until this is fixed and if it doesn't get fixed, I'll be one mad S.O.B." The principal called not long afterwards (Apparently she was told of what was going on only minutes after we left. Heh...;) ) and said, "I think these two kids like each other and just don't know how to tell each other." Whoa nelly, we like each other because he harrasses me?:huh:

Niceness does not correct it. Years and years of therapy does. I thought I made it clear that I was treated badly? There was no MAY HAVE, they DID

Agreed. I was once asked if I needed "someone" to talk to but I, thinking of my Mother, turned the opportunity down. She says people who talk to therapists "are loony. They're always drugged up because they're screwd up in the head." That hurt. I knew I needed someone to talk to and yet my own Mother was basically saying, "You're insane." Her way of thinking just proves to me something that's been commented on quite a few times in this very thread- age doesn't always matter. I, at 17, am smart enough to know that's not the case. She, a woman of almost 50 years old, still thinks "seeing a therapist means you're a loony who needs locked up.":rolleyes: That really infuriates me because my brother, because of that damn high school, is starting to feel the same way and she said the very same thing to him. He started bawling and said, "My Mom thinks I'm crazy...I can't take all of this anymore...":no:

The pain that I mean is the pain a kid will not know till they are out on their own and have things that depend on them for their lives. When you have to go hungry to feed those dependants or if you get in trouble at your job because you didn't get a report in on time that was for a high profile case and had to be turned in now. Or that you have to go in to work even though you are throwing up and should be at the hospital because if you miss one more day at work you will have no electricity because you have been too sick to pay the bills. No mum to feed you chicken soup and pick up you work for you, you alone have to do it.

I'd have to agree that being out on your own is really hard but I hope your statement doesn't mean you're brushing off the pain a bullied child experiences...but your own experiences would imply that you aren't so I'm probably misunderstanding you. After living in such a crappy home environment, I'm actually looking forward just to moving the hell out of here.:lol:

The great thing about children is they are the legal property of whomever’s loins they sprung forth from. I will place my children where I deem fit. I would like to ask you to stop trying to convert me to your Public School religion because I find it rather offensive.

That legal fact is only great when the parents involved have some sort of a properly functioning brain in their head.:rotfl:

Then send them to school in a different area. Or move to a different area.

I have to agree with Thestrals on this one. Your age does show here, I'm sorry to say. You're telling someone to move because their public schooling system is bad...that's easy to say but hard to do. You don't just pack up and go. On top of that, it isn't her fault that schools in general are going down the drain. She shouldn't have to move, schools should have to get themselves back on track.:agree:

You'll find this type of thing everwhere which should have been made evident by the way I'm having the same problems she had...two different places, same problem.

Wow...long reply...:wow: Hope someone still reads it...:rotfl:

IC_Thestrals

January 5th, 2006, 2:12 am

Reven

January 5th, 2006, 2:19 am

Oh would you all just be quiet about the age thing? This thread isn't about how mature you are it is about home schooling. I have given many reasonable arguments but you guys just keep repeating the same silly arguments over and over and over...

I would say this thread is debunked unless you guys can stop thinking of yourselves long enough to post something reasonable.

I see...self-centered are we? I find that a sad arguement to put up...I put up a very valid reason and I hardly find it "the same silly arguement"...

I am sorry. Those kids were horrible....it angers me.

I have got the tar beaten out of me many times. Over and over and over again. I had my blood spilt along the the hall way numerous times...tripped by others down a flight of stairs on a weekly (sometimes daily) basis.

People beat the tar out of me when I needed to go the nurse. So I ended up puking in the hallway only to be thrown into my own puke by these bullies. And held down in it for an hour (no one patrols the hallways untill passing period).

And everything that has happened to me at high school is worth it...why you may ask? It isn't because of the education. It is because of the people I have meet there (people I would not of met otherwise). The friendships I have made at high school are worth all the beatings. I am by no means popular (for if I was I wouldn't get beaten), but the friendships I did form are worth it all. I have learned alot about people at high school, not through teachers and education, but by meeting people. The good and the bad....the good outweighs the bad, maybe not by numbers, but they do outweigh the bad.

It might not of been worth it for you (it appears to have been a truly horrible time for you and for that I am sorry), but that doesn't mean it isn't worth it for others.

Unless you can tell me how this is silly, I don't argree.

IC_Thestrals

January 5th, 2006, 2:19 am

I'd have to agree that being out on your own is really hard but I hope your statement doesn't mean you're brushing off the pain a bullied child experiences...but your own experiences would imply that you aren't so I'm probably misunderstanding you. After living in such a crappy home environment, I'm actually looking forward just to moving the hell out of here.

I would never brush that off. The introvert part of my personality is a direct result of social anxiety disorder that I could never get over. I work around it but if someone is being too loud I still get nervous or jump.

I am sorry you were bullied too. It sucks but what sucks more are when those who weren't bullied act like bullying never happens.

mystic_22

January 5th, 2006, 8:42 am

IC_Thestrals tis post is only for you.
Look, I really don't want to end up having a huge fight with you but I am not going to let go without making myself clear. Lets get this straight once and for all.
We are not discussing your children's life or where they should go. You were the one who brought it into the discussion. All we are discussing here is the differences between homeschooling and going to school to learn. NO ONE ever said that there is a problem with homeschooling. If homeschooling is what you believe in it's fine. It will do no one harm. All we are saying that there are certain things that children should experience and these certain things cannot be experienced at home. You are looking at the whole world through your own experiences. You had a tough time. We get it ok?? The point that you are not getting is that everyone does not have a tough time.My aunt,her husband and her two kids died in a car crash. Does that mean that the whole family will never drive in a car??
But that is what you are doing. Just becasue you had a rough time you think the everyone else will also have a tough time.. But that is not true. We are just trying to convince you of this one point. What you do with your life or you family's life is up to you. And personally I don't care.

Oh Boy, I tried to be patient but now you asked for it. :)
o
It really isn't. You have no freedoms in school. You have no life altering decisions outside of whether to get pizza or spaghetti in the lunch line. Anything you do in school means nothing once you leave it, except in college. The friends you make will divide into their chosen schools and you won't see them again until your 10 year reunion but only if they live that long. School is an alternate dimension that children want desperately to believe is the real world in order to feel that their existence is justified, to make the fact that once you leave high school everything changes so abruptly it is like jumping into a frozen lake a little more bearable. In other words, it is something that kids say to feel grown up. Meanwhile, all the grown up stuff is happening at home. Home is where the groceries are bought, the checks are balanced, and the bills are paid.

As for your whole point of home being the place where the groceries are bought and that in school there is no freedom. Honestly tell me in how many homes do children know just how much the electricity or phone bill is. In today's world how many children do the grocery shopping to know how much it costs?? I am not talking about your children. I am talking on a general basis. And as you said I can prove that more than 75% of the kids do not know all this. Whereas in school and definitely in my school you do have to deal with money and understand expenses. During out interhouse dramatic competions and stuff we had to pay for the background sets and costumes all on our own. It used to be done very professionally. Money used to be collected from all the girls in every house. After that the student volunteers had calculate the cash go to shops and find out the rates. Check out the quality. Estimate how much would have to be spent, including travelling costs. There have been so many times when student voluteers and prefects have sacrificed their own cash so that evereything can be done well for the house. Now thats calculating expenses for you.
As for friends it depends on what kind of friends you make. And we do not meet only in reunions. It has been quite a whille since I've left school we are all still in touch, meet during weekends etc. I have seen it happening to my brothers and cousins. If you have made good friends you never loose touch.

I am going to because it makes all the difference in the world. Are you saying that you are lying about your age? I take what you say as truth unless you tell me it is a lie than you cannot be trusted. Assuming that you are, at 16 you are a sophomore in high school, unless you skipped a grade, you haven't even reached junior year yet which is the hardest. This makes a difference. Right now school is going good for you, you are partial. I doubt you would really feel the same if things start going horribly. I hope things stay peachy for you, I am just making a point that since things are good (you said so yourself) you can't be trusted to provide an adequate analysis of the schools disposition because your opinion is greatly swayed by your personal experience. You don't seem to realize that you are one person in a school of possibly hundreds. Please, look beyond the point on the tip of your nose and try to imagine a situation in which not going to school and having fun would be possible.

I have already said that there is nothing wrong with homeschooling. And I totally agree that you can have a lot of fun outside school. All I am saying is that school is a good place to be in. Where you can learn and have a fun.
And I am not being partial. I have gone through being the least liked stupid girl in school as well. It is still good. I am talking from everyone's point of view. From the point of view of someone who was treated horrible by school and from the point of view of someone school has treated well.And education systems in my country are obviously different from yours. I am in junior college.

I just have above. If you didn't get it, it is the whole part about you only being one person and your views are greatly biased because you are a blissfully unaware teen.

You still have not pointed out something wrong. You are just stating what you think is wrong. And as I said I am saying all this from the point of view of someone who has gone through being disliked and being liked.And we should be talking from the point of view of teens and kids right?? This is about school. Grown ups as you call them do not go to school??

Why would you say something like this? There is nothing wrong with a person who has an opinion that differs from yours. If you respond with something like this again I will report you. I deserve a better response than insults.
If you feel like reporting me go ahead and do it. I have always said that your views are yours and we appreciate it. ''What is wrong with you ?'' was just a expression to express my dislike for you statement about the ravaging wolves

I insulted no one. You are putting words in my mouth. This tactic is called a straw man, it makes me very angry when someone tries to use this on me so pardon me if I light it on fire and defecate in the ashes. If I wanted to call everyone who went to school a ravaging wolf I would obviously have to call myself that if you would get off your righteous horse long enough to remember that I said I have been to school. The ravaging wolves are that large percentage of blissfully unaware people who do horrible things to people who are different than them. This can be anything from a creative nickname to duct taping them to the plumbing for four hours. Those are the wolves. Where did I say anything about Mother Theresa in my post? What a desperate and shameless tactic to try and discredit me.

For God sake no one is discrediting you We are just discussing an issue.You seem to be twisting things around. I am not using any tactics. Why would I? I do not know you. What you think and say makes no real difference to me. What you meant to say might be a different thing but what you did say was ''If you want to send your children to the ravaging wolves send them but I will not send mine.''
If someone reads that the only meaning is that sending children to school means you are sending children to the ravaging wolves. Which is not true. As I said Mother Teresa was the principal of a school in India. By sending your kids to that school would you be sending to the ravaging wolves??? Please be specific in what you say.Maybe the people in your school were like the ravaging wolves. If that is so it is a sad thing. But do not classify all schools to contain ravaging wolves like that. You may not have meant it, but what you wrote clearly expressed that.
And honestly I don not know you. What are you on about?? Disvrediting you?? Why would I?? Who are you to me?? Since you are older than me and take pride in being so please handle this in a mature fashion.

Niceness does not correct it. Years and years of therapy does. I thought I made it clear that I was treated badly? There was no MAY HAVE, they DID

Yes you were treated badly but everyone is not treated badly.

You can look into the face of every bullied child and tell them this with absolute certainty? You have the authority to speak for everyone in the human race on this subject? You, who are so happy at school, are obviously the expert on being picked on and tormented.

Yes I can look into the face of every bullied child and say that everyone is not bullied. Becasue it is true. And I am talking from the perspective of someone who has been bullied too. And do you realise that children who do bully need a lot of help. People do not just start bullying. Something must have happened to make them become like this. You are supposed to be a phsyologist. You who is a phsycology major should know that. Children who bully need more help than those who get bullied. Because those who get bullied will carry on. Sooner or later the pain will die down and the bullying they have faced will settle down to be a thing of the past. But children who bully others carry the pain with them. They need help.

I agree with this but I don't plan on abusing my children so I really don't see your point.

We are not talking about your life and children here. We are talking on the subject of home schooling and normal schooling on the whole. What you do with your children is besides the point.

Than what is your vendetta against it?! You just sat here and pleaded with me to send my children to public school but you agree there is nothing wrong with homeschooling?
I said there is nothing wrong with homeschooling. Nothing wrong. That means there is nothing bad about it but it's not a brilliantly great thing either. Yes I did ask you to send your children to school because I believe that every child must experience school once.What happened to you will not happen to them
And I have not pleaded. What you do will not affect me.

This is where the age factor comes in...you are only 16! How can you know you won't replace those memories with memories of your wedding or something else? I wish we could talk in ten+ years, I am positive you will agree with me.

I will not replace thoise memories. Sure enough there will be other happy memories. But the memories I get from school cannot be got from somewhere else and they are good to have. And even if I spoke to you 10+ years later I would not agree with you. School is a good place to be in.

Yes you understand pain...do you want a cookie? What I mean is pain completely unrelated to you. So your enemy was put in the hospital? Big deal, he was my enemy, not worth my tears, that is not pain. So your mum dies? Very very sad, lots of pain, but you will get over it with time and possibly therapy. The pain that I mean is the pain a kid will not know till they are out on their own and have things that depend on them for their lives. When you have to go hungry to feed those dependants or if you get in trouble at your job because you didn't get a report in on time that was for a high profile case and had to be turned in now. Or that you have to go in to work even though you are throwing up and should be at the hospital because if you miss one more day at work you will have no electricity because you have been too sick to pay the bills. No mum to feed you chicken soup and pick up you work for you, you alone have to do it.
The home schooled kids I know (I know a lot) do extensive volunteer work for the community. I worked at the zoo and our entire day shift volunteer staff was comprised of home schooled kids. I assure you they were normal and the big thing was they worked five times harder than our weekend staff of public school kids. I am sorry and no I do not have cited sources for this but the home schooled kids had a much better grasp of reality than the public school ones who hardly ever showed up and you had to goad with a cattle prod to get them to lift a food bowl.

You think public shcooled kids do not have a grasp of reality. You are only talking based on what you have seen in your place. But I have travelled a lot ok?? I know. A lot of schools nowadays have interact clubs. Where the students work. Work to get money and give it to the orphanages for donation. Go to hospitals and veterinary hospitals for a whole week to stay there,learn and help out. Specific weekends are chalked out for volunteers to go to AIDS homes and oldage homes. I myself have done all of this. Specially in the veterinary hospital. They are taken to special cancer care homes and what more the students have to do this. There is no way out. At home all parents are not like you. They do not make sure their children do all this. But in schools athourities make sure that children experience all of this.
As for pain the kind of stuff you are talking about is a part of life which comes at it's own pace. You are going too far ahead. Thats not what is being discussed here. You seem to be forgetting that! We are comparing homeschooling to normal schooling. Not pain. And you are comparing the pain of loosing one's mother to a cookie?? Is that being grown up and mature?? Do you actually think that the pain of the loss of someone so close or so dear will ever die out?? Onbviously you have not lost your mother or you were never really close to her. And the stuff you speak about is destined for everyone to face at one ponit of time. As I said you keep forgetting the topic of discussion. You said that children do not feel pain. That is not true. The causes of their pain might seem trivial to you know. But the pain that one goes through at any point of time is as hurting as any other pain at an older age. Pain is pain period. And it is not that children do not feel pain.
I remind you we are discussing homeschooling and normal schooling here?? Not what children will face at the age of 42.

No it isn't. It is your opinion, kindly do not mistake it for reality.

No one is mistaking anything. We differ in our opinions that is all.
Besides reality for everyone is the way they look at the world is it not??

So what? It isn't the schools job to make sure that sort of thing is taught.

Whats your point??? Not the schools job?? Again I will remind you of the topic. At home parents may or may not teach their children. Now a days governments are ensuring that stuff like this is taught in school. And I have proof. I have attended a part of the UN meeting for the second committee related to educational and culural issues. And a charter has been made and signed ensuring that all governmant recognised schools teach all of this as a part of their sylabuss.

I was giving an example of what a parent would say to a small child in response to the child striking the dog. The said parent is attempting to teach the child sympathy.
Ok so what?? Parents teach their children sympathy. Schools also do that! Truce!

The great thing about children is they are the legal property of whomever’s loins they sprung forth from. I will place my children where I deem fit. I would like to ask you to stop trying to convert me to your Public School religion because I find it rather offensive. :)

As I said we are not discussing your life here. We are discussing the topic in general. What you do is up to you. And we are not converting you over to anything. Just stating somethings which we feel is right and you don't.

It is really nice that you are all Harry Potterish but that also means irrationality. I am an incredibly rational human being and it really only takes me putting my hand on the stove once to realize it burns. I wouldn't call the second time around bravery, I would call it stupidity.

No one is being any ish here. Harry Potterish or any other kind. It is not being irrational. People I know and I have gone through it. It is a hard core fact of life. Harry Potter might be fantasy but do you realise that people do not just make up stuff. They create fantasy but the rock bottom base of everything is human life experience. There is always something to learn from everything.You might call it stupidity but thats it isn't it? you have never tried. That is the thing. We decide things without trying. How do you know that things will not turn out to be different if you try??

Good golly, you really want to drive that part home don't you? Well my extroverted little tidbit, I was picked on, my companion was picked on right alongside me so I would say that makes our theoretical children genetically predisposed to bullying. I don't care what happens to everyone else, I would care about my children.
As I said we differ in opinions and do things differently. All I am saying is that do not deem thoughts that oppose your thoughts as bad irrational or stupid. Because thats exactly what you are doing. You never tried the other way around. So you do not know.

I am sorry you were bullied. I handle situations differently than you; you are going to have to accept that some people are different than you. This is the real world via internet. Someone who does not think you are suggesting something completely genius. Shrug it off and move along. I won't cave, my sig says it all. Really, you could not have picked a worse person to preach to (except maybe my pal ComicBookWorm, that girl can argue :D).
I am not preaching. We are just stating each others points of view.And thats it. We think differently. Handle stuff differently.

Lucky you. I really am happy for you. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN TO EVERYONE!

Maybe so. But how do you know that it will not happen without trying

I'm not moving.
Your choice.

Thanks for quoting me, I feel loved. Oh, that second chance thing is hooey. Everyday was a second chance but it didn't get better till I left. My parents did not have the means to home school me but I would have opted for it in a heartbeat and regret not bussing down to my Grandma's when she offered to do it.

That depends. Second chances work for some of us. For some it does not.

Your not being a bit too strong are you? School is a joke, the sooner you learn that the better off you are. If I died now I know I have truly lived because I have traveled the world and did what I wanted to do. If I die now my only regret is wasting my youth in school.

That depends.You never opted to change schools and try out a different one. It might have been different. Again people lead different lives. Second chances work for some of us. For some it does not.You could have trully lived without school. Some of us cannot do that.

:rotfl: Darling, you are cracking me up. Did you not read anything I posted? The most wonderful memory I have of school is the 5 pound calzones they sold in the Al A Carte line but I can make those at home now.
That might be your memory there is much more to the meories of most of us.

No your reason is not equally good. The only argument that you have presented is that you have fun in school so everyone else will have fun in school. This is such a blatant lie that I don't even know why I took the time to type out this ludicrously long response other than that I actually do respect your opinion and wanted to give you a proper argument. It is clear that you don't respect mine. Saying that you do doesn't erase all the preaching and converting and manipulating you attempted. Please lay off on the caps lock..

You do realsie what you are saying, don't you? If anyone has done manupilating and preaching it's you. You are the one who is twisting things around.School, is not about having fun. I never said so. Thats what you have decided to make out of it because thats what you want to do. Everything you say and think is about what you have gone through. I might remind you that there is more to the world than the place you live in. You have personalised the discussion to your family and life. But this is a topic for general discussion. I am not saying anything for the heck of saying it. What you think is what you think and it works for you. GOOD FOR YOU. :tu:
Because what you say and think makes no difference to me.I could be equally rude but I will refrain from being so. I think we have argued enough with each other so Enough is Enough. We differ in what we think greatly and thats that.
You can cherish your thoughts and live happily and I will keep to mine.

IC_Thestrals

January 5th, 2006, 11:32 am

Wow...long reply... Hope someone still reads it...

Well at least you did. :) I think the paragraphs help it along.

I am done with that particular person. I spent all my alotted internet time typing that response. I really shouldn't have given them that much of my time but I was feeling frisky.

Oh well, I still think homeschooling is the best option. Most homeschooled kids I know finished all their work and went off to college at fifteen. At that age, your still willing to focus on the work involved with college without so many "other" distractions. Some places even have underge dorms for these kids so they don't mix with the drunken lot on accident.

icklek

January 5th, 2006, 12:21 pm

Originally Posted by IC_Thestrals
Honestly, that is really cute but I cannot equate that to the "real world". Crayons are not the same as food. Nor does it make the fact that you didn't balance your checkbook correctly and have to eat Ramen Noodles for three weeks any easier an experience.

Originally Posted by mystic_22
Cute or no cute it is true. Besides I never compared crayons and food. I compared the my friends' need for money to a grwon ups need for money. The sorrow she went through and the extra work she put in to get money when she did not have enough was the same sorow and effort a grown up experiences when he is in desparate need for money. It is about the universal crave and need for money that all human beings go through. What they want to do with that money is a different matter.

I'm sorry mystic_22, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. I don't think a child who has no money for crayons will have anywhere near the worry or sorrow that an adult with financial problems will have.

After all, what are the consequences of not having crayons? The child has to find another source of entertainment.
And the consequences of an adult having financial problems? If they can't afford to pay their mortgage they lose their home. If they can't afford to pay their bills the electricity and gas gets cut off. If they can't afford to buy decent food they have to feed themselves and their children cheap rubbish which will affect their health.

The point I'm trying to make is that adults have responsibilities and need their money for necessities. Children don't, they have parents to look after all that for them.

junika3

January 5th, 2006, 12:49 pm

Ooooh...IC_Thestrals and mystic_22, don't get into TOO heated an argument (debate?)

Then send them to school in a different area. Or move to a different area.

I do agree with you on a lot of your points, mystic_22, but then, I disagree with some of them, too. I mean, come on, you can't pack up and move just because your kids public school sucks. I mean, be practical, get real, come back down to earth...

Wait a sec..I thought you had to send your kid to the public school that is situated in YOUR neighborhood, not some other neighbourhood?

And, yes, IC_Thestrals, I'm going to have to agree with you on this one-people who haven't gotten bullied act like it doesn't happen EVER, ANYWHERE. I used to, until I read some of these posts, to tell you the truth. I mean, I thought it was just one of those teen-movie and teen-novel things. I didn't think kids would actually be that mean to other people. I mean, if I tried bullying someone, I'd probably burst out laughing, I don't think I can go hit someone or taunt them real bad without feeling un-imaginably FAKE.

Cute or no cute it is true. Besides I never compared crayons and food. I compared the my friends' need for money to a grwon ups need for money. The sorrow she went through and the extra work she put in to get money when she did not have enough was the same sorow and effort a grown up experiences when he is in desparate need for money. It is about the universal crave and need for money that all human beings go through. What they want to do with that money is a different matter.

Okay, mystic_22, I don't agree with you on this one either. I mean, come on! A person with financial problems could end up committing suicide-would a kid without crayons do that? I mean, that IS an extreme, but still. I mean, having no money is harder a lot more serious and worrisome than having no CRAYONS. But I suppose if you stretch your imagination a little bit, you could say it was (in a VERY wierd, vague and indirect way) that it was kind of the same principle.

Okay, are drifting off-topic with this money-crayons thing?

And I had this really weird, disconnected thought (guys, please don't jump down my throats)-those of you who are married, where did you meet your spouse? Most of the married couples I know met each other at school. I know school isn't meant for meeting your future husband/wife, but YOU do meet people there, and some that you like. Love. A LOT. I mean, Mr and Mrs Weasley could be an example, since we're on this particular site. Just a random thought. I guess you could meet your future spouse in your neighbourhood or whatever.

And IC_Thestrals, you said you disagreed with me when I said that you misss out on a lot when you're NOT in school. Care to elaborate why?

erica_7

January 6th, 2006, 5:07 am

mystic_22, you can send your kids to school and IC_Thestrals, you can home-school your kids :):):) then everyone's happy!!!

Reven

January 6th, 2006, 7:48 am

Oh well, I still think homeschooling is the best option. Most homeschooled kids I know finished all their work and went off to college at fifteen. At that age, your still willing to focus on the work involved with college without so many "other" distractions. Some places even have underge dorms for these kids so they don't mix with the drunken lot on accident.
Colledge at 15! Because we wouldn't want a kid to have a childhood! Or friends! That would be horrible! Just another distraction...

Mad_Ravenclaw

January 6th, 2006, 10:03 am

I was just wondering, can a person get a complete, good all-round education outside school?

I think school is essential. You get people skills, moral values and extra curricular activities.

But then again, it IS important to get individual attention, and to be street-smart...

Please post with your honest opinions...
Is it possible to get a good all-round education at all? That would kill Hermione, but you can't know everything!:p
You learn all your life, anyway. :lol:
Well, I think school is important. Not only for the theorical knowledge you gtet in school, but also because this is where you're supposed to learn how to be independent, handy, sociable... to live with others, in a society that has rules, a hierarchy, etc... It's supposed to prepare you for your future life in our society. Now I said "supposed to", because it doesn't always work as planned.
Now for knowledge, you don't need to be in school. You can open a book anywhere and learn, can't you? It's important to learn all your life. My husband only graduated from high school, I have a master degree and yet he knows more things than me, on a lot of subjects (like French literature, and I'm French and he's Polish, and it's SO annoying!!!).
Then your experience, the people you meet all your life teach you a lot, if you're open-minded enough.
But there's one thing that's very important, is to think for yourself. And I'm not so sure they teach you that in school... That's the key, but I think you can only find it alone.
Well, my all time favourite teacher was MrKeating, a.k.a Oh Captain my Captain...

junika3

January 6th, 2006, 11:14 am

Mad_Ravenclaw

January 6th, 2006, 12:15 pm

icklek

January 6th, 2006, 12:39 pm

Just reading through the posts, I noticed that more people stick to school rather than homeschooling...

And humans (generally in life) have always associated in groups (settlements and all that stuff)...so shouldn't we be allowed to lern how to mingle AS SOON AS POSSIBLE?

Are you saying that homeschooled children never come into contact with any other kids?? Kids make friends in all sorts of places. Clubs, sporting activities, playing with the other kids that live in their street, playing with kids of their parent's friends, other kids in their extended family. It's not like homeschooled children are never allowed out of their houses and sit with their faces pressed against the windows watching wistfully as other kids play in the street...

junika3

January 6th, 2006, 12:46 pm

Are you say ing that homeschooled children never come into contact with any other kids?? Kids make friends in all sorts of places. Clubs, sporting activities, playing with the other kids that live in their street, playing with kids of their parent's friends, other kids in their extended family.

No, I did not and will not ever say that homeschooled kids don't come into contact with other kids, I'm not THAT stupid (I think...lol..hahaha).

But come on, you've GOT to admit it, you do meet more people at school. And think about it- in your neighborhood or club or soccer camp or whatever, you DO meet a lot of people, but probably only a few of them would be your own age. At school, since you are divided into grades or whatever, you meet more children of your own age.

Mad_madeye

January 6th, 2006, 12:47 pm

Colledge at 15! Because we wouldn't want a kid to have a childhood! Or friends! That would be horrible! Just another distraction...

Uh... Dude? It's not like that would mean a kid wouldn't have friends...

junika3

January 6th, 2006, 12:58 pm

You have no freedoms in school. You have no life altering decisions outside of whether to get pizza or spaghetti in the lunch line.

Okay, I so totally don't agree with that. I mean, what about making the right friends? What about choosing which classes you're going to take? What about choosing which extra-curricular activity you're going to continue with? The responsibilities you undertake (bringing the right books to school, reaching school on time, learning your part for the class play, etc)...would you really get that at home?

And what you said doesn't really prove your point. What major life-altering descisions do you get to make at home? And you probably wouldn't even get to choose what you wanted for lunch if you were home-schooled...it'd probably be spooned out on a plate for you...

Most homeschooled kids I know finished all their work and went off to college at fifteen.

And really, in college, you usually DO have a very large workload, and which 15 year old would want to put up with so much work? I mean, at 15, you still are a kid...and if you're in college at the age of 15, you'll probably be an extremely overworkedand tiredkid. Its almost like missing a big chunk of your life-sitting in college when you're supposed to be in school. I mean, you're just too young! Its like, I tried to read those P.G. Wodehouse books when I was 7, because I saw my sister reading them, and so obviously, I HATED them, because I was WAY too young to be reading them in the first place. So, there's a huge chance that a 15 year old would HATE college..he/she would be just be WAY too young!

mystic_22

January 6th, 2006, 12:59 pm

Right guys I thought that entire thing between me and IC_Thestrals was closed. So please stop getting back to it again and again.

icklek

January 6th, 2006, 1:03 pm

No, I did not and will not ever say that homeschooled kids don't come into contact with other kids, I'm not THAT stupid (I think...lol..hahaha).

But come on, you've GOT to admit it, you do meet more people at school. And think about it- in your neighborhood or club or soccer camp or whatever, you DO meet a lot of people, but probably only a few of them would be your own age. At school, since you are divided into grades or whatever, you meet more children of your own age.

But why do they have to be the same age as you?

And what about kids who live in one area and go to school in another? When I went to school I lived 2 bus rides away from all my friends. Or the kids that go to school for a few years before their parents make the decision to take them out of school? They'd still have the friends they made while they were there...

owlchick9

January 6th, 2006, 9:23 pm

Mark Twain says, dont lwt education get in the way of learning. i think that is so true!!!

IC_Thestrals

January 6th, 2006, 10:14 pm

You just don't need a school setting. You guys may all be social butterflies. I, however, am an introvert. This means my happiest moments are spent with me, myself, and I. All alone with my ponderings and thoughts is way more fun than having to act like I care about the vapid banter of crowd of people. My point is that being social is not all its cracked up to be. I have found that kids with loads of friends generally do worse in school than kids with a couple of close friends because of all the distraction.

What I am trying to say is that the main concern seems to be socialization but you are all going to have to accept that what you thought about home schooling is incorrect. Kids who are properly homeschooled are just as socially adept as those who went to public school. Those who aren't social don't want to be. I think homeschooled kids are more themselves because lets face it, there is alot of pressure to be something that a crowd of people want you to be rather than what you are.

I don't think having an introverted personality is such a loss, but than again I am partial.

PS>> Thanks to those who agree. Glad I am not just barking to thin air.

crookshanks16

January 7th, 2006, 12:53 am

I do not believe that you can get a full education ouside of school. I have cousins who are homeschooled. They're smart enough. I mean they've learned everything accademically, but not socially. They don't know how to act around kids because they're always around adults. They also act like they're about 40 when they're actually only 14.

IC_Thestrals

January 7th, 2006, 2:04 am

They don't know how to act around kids because they're always around adults. They also act like they're about 40 when they're actually only 14.
Whats wrong with that? I am old and I really don't miss much about my childhood. I couldn't wait to grow up and now I know I had a good reason to. Being young and what is worse, having a young mind, is so very limiting. I put great value on logic and intelligence, not that I would think less of the less intelligent, but that is what I think is important. My only wish is for my kids to be smart. It is alright if they are incapable of being smart for health reasons (I would still love them) but if you want the job done right you have to do it yourself. If they have many friends that is awesome, but I want them to be smart. I want to teach my kids.

I have teacher friends and while they are smart people they all say the same thing, they have too many kids in a class to teach effectively. There are too many distractions and the kids suffer for it. They have no objections to home schooling and plan on doing it with their own kids if they have the means.

Milu

January 7th, 2006, 3:01 am

IC_Thestrals

January 7th, 2006, 3:19 am

it's the same kind of people you'll have to face later on in life.

I know you guys mean well but I don't understand why you won't listen to me when I tell you that the situations you face in school are nothing like the ones you face in the outside world. If anything school makes it harder because you have spent years behaving the way school dictates and it is much more difficult at work or likewise. I would say that the kids who behave like 40 year olds are better equipped to deal with this. I used to constantly fire kids because they could not behave in a professional manner no matter how much I tryed to convey to them what they had to do. These are lessons you won't learn until you leave school and get a job and then get in trouble the first couple of times because you have to behave differently. It is a real shock for most.

Milu

January 7th, 2006, 3:28 am

IC_Thestrals

January 7th, 2006, 3:41 am

I think it pretty much depends on the child, doesn't it?
You are absolutely correct. It is just my personal preference. I have many valid reasons for chosing to do so. I apologize to anyone if I seem blunt but I feel compelled to dispell these misgivings people have in regards to it. I think school kind of teaches you that home schooling is bad. I used to think it until I met all my friends who were home schooled and than I started studying psychology and learned of the benefits of both and feel that proper home schooling has greater advantages. I understand that there appears to be alot of room for error but the home schooling process is heavily monitored by the state and if your parents cannot comply with your states requirements than you will be sent to your local public school whether your folks like it or not so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Not every idiot qualifies to home school. :)

mystic_fairy

January 7th, 2006, 3:43 am

Well I think the way someone learns depends on the individual. Albert Einstein dropped out of highschool, and he turned out to be a genius. Then there are people who go to private schools and prestigious colleges to achieve the same thing. I'm not saying either thing is better then the other, just that it varies from person to person.

Although I think the only way to learn social skills is to be in social situations. With learning how to behave around other peopla, books will go only so far, you have to experience it first hand to fully understand it. Through school I have learned basically all i know about interacting with other people. School is not the only way to learn these though, my grandma has lived in the Philippines her entire life, she doesn't speak english and she can't read or write. She is somewhere around eighty years old, and has raised six children, still works in the rice fields, and still can make the eight hour bus ride by herself to visit my mom's sister (her daughter obviously) every now and then. So there are people who have led a good life and learned social skills without ever setting foot inside of a school.

IC_Thestrals

January 7th, 2006, 3:50 am

Then there are people who go to private schools and prestigious colleges to achieve the same thing.
Let us not forget that 99% of "class a" college graduates become nobodys like the rest of us. :)

TonyJoe

January 7th, 2006, 3:57 am

I know you guys mean well but I don't understand why you won't listen to me when I tell you that the situations you face in school are nothing like the ones you face in the outside world. If anything school makes it harder because you have spent years behaving the way school dictates and it is much more difficult at work or likewise. I would say that the kids who behave like 40 year olds are better equipped to deal with this.Ok, I can sort of agree with you here, but I don't see how your kitchen table is more like the outside world than an actual classroom. High school teachers baby their students for the most part and it fosters irresponsibility.

However, the "high school experience" isn't limited to just the four walls and molly coddling of the classroom. Most high school students can manage to come away with lots of life skills including professionalism because high school involves quite a bit outside of the classroom. I'm a member of the debate and quiz bowl teams at school and we've competed at universities like Princeton and Rutgers; a lack of professionalism isn't going to be tolerated. You can go to high school and learn to be professional along with acquiring other "real world" experiences.

If anything school makes it harder because you have spent years behaving the way school dictates and it is much more difficult at work or likewise. I don’t think so. If were true, no college freshmen would ever need to have a shot of penicillin and their stomachs pumped one month into first semester. A genocide teacher did however once tell me that high school students are so conditioned to follow rules that we would be excellent instruments for carrying out mass murder.

These are lessons you won't learn until you leave school and get a job and then get in trouble the first couple of times because you have to behave differently. It is a real shock for most.There are also some lessons about the work place that you can't learn until you work with other people. Its not simply a matter of being able to interact with them, but its being able to sacrifice some control over the creative process, like my friend who was home schooled until 8th grade. He found group projects to be difficult because he couldn’t make all the decisions or control everything the way he was used to in his home assignments. True, this is a problem for some people no matter where they go to school, but high school at least forces you to deal with it before you enter into the work force, where it will be a much less pleasant experience to be told to sit down and shut up for a change.

I've actually read a few articles on home schooling since my last post, and success and sociability definitely aren’t problems for home schooled kids overall. I've got no problem with home schooling since it seems that difficulties (if any) that can result are easily over come. I do however disagree with your characterization of schools seeming to fail in fostering professionalism or making the work place tougher for kids because its experiences are unreal.

IC_Thestrals

January 7th, 2006, 4:11 am

I do however disagree with your characterization of schools seeming to fail in fostering professionalism or making the work place tougher for kids because its experiences are unreal.

It is a generalization. You have to look at the school population as a whole. I wouldn't expect anyone on this site to be like this because you all read (at least you read these posts and I think you all have read Harry Potter) and think and interact with people from all over the world. MOst students in any public school do the bare minimum to get a passing grade. Consequently, they do the bare minimum of work they can do in those set work hours. I am not saying all do. I have had plenty of skilled school kids come through my shop and volunteer at the zoo but I would put the numbers at 1 out of 6 to be really honest.

I am alittle confused with the rest of your post. Are you agreeing? It seems like you might be but than you say things like "no" and its throwing me off. I suppose alot of what your saying can also be used to support my argument is the problem.

TonyJoe

January 7th, 2006, 4:40 am

I do for the most part agree with you, home schooling is as academically effective as any other method of teaching, and for students overall, it wont negatively effect them socially. I can't help however (based on my own personal experiences) to see certain down sides to home schooling (controlling home schooled kids in the work place).

MOst students in any public school do the bare minimum to get a passing grade. Consequently, they do the bare minimum of work they can do in those set work hours. I am not saying all do. I have had plenty of skilled school kids come through my shop and volunteer at the zoo but I would put the numbers at 1 out of 6 to be really honest.Ok, again, I hear where your coming from, but I still don't necessarily agree with home school turning out the better kid because of this. Yep, there are quite a few students who do the bare minimum to get by, but the numbers who do this is probably indeterminable. I've also had the experience of meeting home-schooled kids who are just like this.

I've alluded to a formerly home-schooled kid who annoyed me with his controlling nature when we worked together on our project. Outside of the project he's actually a really cool guy (which now that I think about it, throws more doubt on the idea of home schooled kids having bad social skills) Well I met him before he started going to public school. He's got two siblings and they were all home schooled and their parents gave them each the choice of going to high school. My friend is the only one who elected to go. He takes pretty advanced classes, a great musician and he's pretty motivated, definitely not satisfied with the bare minimum.

His brother however who’s never gone to public school is pretty much the opposite. He's not incredibly bright, certainly a bit immature, and unlike his brother, not incredibly sure of where he's going in life, and not to concerned. Then again, lots of people no matter their schooling are just like this.

My point is that home schooling can turn out mediocre employees just as easily as public school does and i'm not certain that there's enough data to show which turns out more than the other. I'm saying all this not really in defiance of home schooling, just in defense of public schools. I don't think its the institution itself, I think it depends on the people (perhaps too much shaped by a rather lazy minded culture). The people who are going to succeed are probably going to succeed whether they're at a class room desk or a kitchen table, so people should probably educate their kids the way they want to, the point is to just be sure they get educated.

mystic_22

January 7th, 2006, 4:52 am

I think you CAN get a proper education, but it is definitely not the same.
Yes, maybe they do have friends and go out and practice sports and stuff but it is not the same.
As many here said, it's the experiences you get at school: a nice teacher, a bad teacher, an unfair teacher, ateacher who loves you, a teacher who hates you, a mean partner, a wonderful partner...it's the same kind of people you'll have to face later on in life. You learn how to handle certain social situations. You fight, you make friends...this CAN happen outside school, but I think it's important that you actually share something with that other person :)

ETA: In response to what you say, IC_Thestrals, I used to be very shy when I was younger, and I can't say I'm 100% over that, but just staying at home cause you're introvert wouldn't have made it any better. I completely understand you like being alone, I just say in my case, I'm glad being at school made me have more friends and be more outgoing. What I mean by this is, at age six you can't really tell if a kid likes to spend time with people or not; maybe if I had been given the option I would have stayed at home. But now I like being around people and have many friends, so I think that's a choice you can actually make when you grow up, there you choose if you want to work alone or around people :)

Oh and...how many children are there usually in a class there? Here it's like..30 or so...what makes the difference between a good student and a bad one, is determined by the effort the child puts in learning. A child who doensn't pay attention at school won't pay attention at home. Please correct me if I'm wrong :)

Milu you have all my support. Totally.
As I have been saying all along it's not that people who get homeschooled do not get educated but education is not justs science maths and english. There is so much more to an educated person. And school fulfills that so much more. All those experiences that cannot be got any where else.
The joy of running to bag the first seat in an interestiung class. The joy of studying hard the previous day to impress your favourite teacher.Also the thing is that in schools there is so much of healthy competition that you learn much better. You learn what 300 other people around your age have gone through. It's a different feeling altogether. Going mad during an inter school fest. Pulling innocent faces in class to prevent your teacher from knowing about the notes letters under you desk.
It's unbelievable and I honestly believe thjat all children should be allowed to experience all of this atleast for sometime in their lives.

IC_Thestrals

January 7th, 2006, 5:00 am

he people who are going to succeed are probably going to succeed whether they're at a class room desk or a kitchen table, so people should probably educate their kids the way they want to, the point is to just be sure they get educated.
Totally agree.

junika3

January 7th, 2006, 5:22 am

All those experiences that cannot be got any where else.
The joy of running to bag the first seat in an interestiung class. The joy of studying hard the previous day to impress your favourite teacher.Also the thing is that in schools there is so much of healthy competition that you learn much better.

So, so true. I mean, at home, you ALWAYS get the first seat.

IC_Thestrals

January 7th, 2006, 5:25 am

So, so true. I mean, at home, you ALWAYS get the first seat.

Do you guys honestly care? Honestly now? I can never imagine a situation in school where I cared what seat I sat in. I cared in college because I paid alot of money and didn't want to sit behind someone who was 8 feet tall and blocked the projector. But in high school? You are kidding right?

Milu

January 7th, 2006, 5:55 am

Not so much about the seat thing, I guess she sort of misunderstood the "competition" thing but I agree with the "healthy competition" statement.
But there's the thing when the competition isn't so "healthy" and in that aspect I think homeschooling may be slightly better. First of all, and this is very general but you can't deny it's a fact: kids can be VERY mean. And I mean VERY.
I think certaing parents who choose to have home schooled children are trying to make sure their kids don't go through that. I think it's a part of growing up, something you need to go through but I do understand those parents.
The main reason of me being shy as a child was that I did well at school, yup, I was smart, whatever, you know, kids don't like that :p They'll tease you, they'll call you names, they'll think you study all day, you don't play, you don't watch TV, I don't know they make up stuff and think they're cool because of getting lower grades and calling you names. The funny part [which isn't really funny] is that when you get a good grade they call you a nerd, and when you get a lower grade than theirs, they call you stupid! So yes, you never get much rest. I didn't really care about them, they were just annoying but some kids couldn't stand the whole "popular [meaning lazy] versus nerds [meaning smart or at least willing to study] kids" and they would have probably chosen home-schooling, maybe I would have chosen home-schooling but I already said "now I like being around people and have many friends, so I think that's a choice you can actually make when you grow up, there you choose if you want to work alone or around people" :)

junika3

January 7th, 2006, 5:59 am

Do you guys honestly care? Honestly now? I can never imagine a situation in school where I cared what seat I sat in. I cared in college because I paid alot of money and didn't want to sit behind someone who was 8 feet tall and blocked the projector. But in high school? You are kidding right?

I'm not kidding. Well, at least, to ME, it really matters which seat I sit in. If I sit in the last row, I always end up talking or passing notes. And when you're in the front seat, there's no way you'll get distracted, nor will you be prone to talk (for obvious reasons). Maybe its just me...

And by the way, you DO get tall people in school.

And in India, where I live, the public schools are really really bad. Hardly anyone goes to a public school, because in public schools, there are always cases of teachers not coming to class, students getting into fights, etc. So we pay a lot to get into school too, and want to get as much as we can from school.

And I, personally, LOVE school. I could not imagine loving education as much as I do now if I were (was?) homeschooled. Again, maybe its just me...

And what mystic_22 and I (and so SO many others have been trying to say) is barely the TIP OF THE ICEBERG! I mean, I just can't express it, I love school and (almost) everything about it!

Let us not forget that 99% of "class a" college graduates become nobodys like the rest of us. :)

In my opinion, everyone is a somebody.

And even if there ARE 'nobodies' as you call them, its THEIR fault. If Bill Gates and George Bush and Billie Joe Armstrong (lead singer of GREEN DAY, THE BEST BAND IN THE WORLD) can make it big, why can't anyone else? We've all got our talents and capabilities and skills or whatever, we've just got to use them to our advantage.

And schools really do help us develop our talents and skills. If it wasn't for school, I wouldn't know that I could run (I mean, fast). I'm not saying homeschooled kids can't develop their talents, but I just think that there is more scope for all-round development in school.

IC_Thestrals

January 7th, 2006, 6:06 am

@Milu That was my main reason. If you go back two pages to Mystic and I's epic battle, I outlined that I was picked on and did not think it worth it for my children to experience it, especially when I planned to have the time to teach them properly and get them involved with sports and clubs. It wasn't my only reason but definately a motivating factor. Theoretically, I can see myself liking my offspring immensly. I just can't justify potentially repeating a mistake if I had the means not to. Thats all.

@Junika I went to school too. I am just trying to say I did not have a pleasurable experience. I don't want my kids to have the same experience (our public schools sound alot like yours). I can prevent it, so I will.

Oh, if everybody were famous than no one would be famous. Those people had lucky shots. The most important thing is that your happy. If my lucky number comes up for fame and fortune, GREAT! But in the meanwhile, I am happy being a nobody, it is a pretty easy job.

junika3

January 7th, 2006, 2:06 pm

@Junika I went to school too. I am just trying to say I did not have a pleasurable experience. I don't want my kids to have the same experience (our public schools sound alot like yours). I can prevent it, so I will.

I understand what you're saying, IC_Thestrals, but listen. First of all, I've gone to a public school in the USA, and let me tell you this-the public schools there are like the best of private schools here. I am NOT kidding, I'm dead serious, so trust me, public schools are REALLY BAD here.

And alright. Maybe you DID go to a REALLY bad school full of monsters and demons (metaphorically; no one jump down my throat), poor you, but ALL schools are not like that! Maybe you could check out the school and stuff BEFORE you send your kids there. If the school is good, and doesn't contain the evils that YOUR school had, then you could send your child there!

Oh, if everybody were famous than no one would be famous. Those people had lucky shots. The most important thing is that your happy. If my lucky number comes up for fame and fortune, GREAT! But in the meanwhile, I am happy being a nobody, it is a pretty easy job.

True, it IS too much pressure being famous. I mean, you have to be al dignified and composed all the time, when actually, deep (or maybe not so deep) inside, you're frustrated and just want to SCREAM and RIP OUT YOUR (or someone else's) HAIR. Yep, I like being me.

Mad_madeye

January 7th, 2006, 2:36 pm

Wow... Talk about a debate... Anyway, time to add my own two cents on the matter. *Ahem*

Well, first off, I'd like you all to know that I'm sixteen and seen both the good and the bad of school. I've had lots of friends in the past, have been picked on later (which had a great effect on me and the person I am today) and now I spend virtually all the time at school alone. And I'll be honest with you - I don't really enjoy school these days (to put it mildly). Not only is the workload really catching up on me - I lasted pretty long, but at the level I'm studying it's just becoming slightly overwhelming for me (though I've sworn I'll make it; I'm not gonna study any lower) - I have nothing really to enjoy out there. However, I'm still not sure if I would want to be homeschooled. I have to say that despite my miserable experiences, I have learned a few good lessons of life that I probably wouldn't've learned if I'd be homeschooled. Most important of all, that this world is FULL OF IDIOTS and that I'm going to have to deal with them for the rest of my natural existence. *sigh* But it also made me one heck of a stronger person than I was and also far less naïve.

Oh, and junika3, I think IC_Thestrals already said she'd checked out schools and that in her area, it's mostly comprised of schools that completely suck in regards to bullying etc., so I think it might be time for you to back off on the whole persuading business...

junika3

January 7th, 2006, 2:41 pm

Mad_madeye

January 7th, 2006, 2:57 pm

Ah well, Mad_madeye, I was just trying...maybe she should move to India...lol...hahahaha....

Its just that I love school SO MUCH!! I couldn't IMAGINE my life without it, and I've always thought life would be really boring without it...

Call me Erik, and yeah, I figured... ;)

Yeah, I see your point... But school can be a major drag aswell, and not just in terms of all the homework (which is truly starting to kill me these days). For me, it brought (and continues to bring) me more hate for myself than it has brought me joy (seeing as I blame myself and who I am for most of the things I've suffered - I see it as my own fault).

yahwehgrl

January 7th, 2006, 11:07 pm

I went to an art school which was wonderful because it was full of oddballs like me and had even more homeschooled kids who decided to give high school a shot. High was cool but I did not go to a normal high school. I was brutally tormented in middle school, so much so that I was going to drop out if I did not get accepted to the art school because I could not rejoin all those idiots at my local school. They had calzones at both so I suppose it was a county thing.

I'm auditioning for two Governor's Schools (one's art, the others for math). Hopefully I'll be attending one of them (I'm not sure which one of them I prefer) in the fall and get to see my friends who made it last year.

Back to the thread topic - doesn't this show that a public/private school can be enjoyable enough and a good learning environment if it suits your needs and interests? I suppose this doesn't help the home schooling vs. public/private schooling argument in either direction, though. It really comes down to personal preferences.

Okay, I so totally don't agree with that. I mean, what about making the right friends? What about choosing which classes you're going to take? What about choosing which extra-curricular activity you're going to continue with? The responsibilities you undertake (bringing the right books to school, reaching school on time, learning your part for the class play, etc)...would you really get that at home?

Those aren't really life-altering desicions. More like month-altering or year-altering...

But volunteering taught them that too. If you were mean or had an attitude to your supervisor (me) you were sent home (by me).

Does it? I've volunteered every summer since the 6th grade as part of this city council program. I never really felt like my supervisors were some kind of authority. I volunteered and did my work, but if one day I were to not show up, not logging in enough hours was the worst that could happen.

But, IC_Thestrals, if the bullying in your area is that bad, I highly doubt anything we say is going to change your mind.

IC_Thestrals

January 8th, 2006, 7:36 am

But, IC_Thestrals, if the bullying in your area is that bad, I highly doubt anything we say is going to change your mind.
Smartest thing I have heard in awhile. :)

Murtlap

January 9th, 2006, 9:26 am

mystic_22

January 9th, 2006, 12:47 pm

To be honest, I'm amazed at how many people there are on here saying they love school - maybe schools outside Britain are better, but we home school (or home educate as we call it here), and in all the time we've done so, we've yet to meet a child who defends school or says they are happy. On hearing that my children are taught at home they always and without fail say 'you're so lucky, I wish I was taught at home!'. We've never met any child who support their schooling the way many people here are doing. It makes me think that British schools must be even worse than I thought, and I already had a fairly low opinion of them!
Anyway, to answer the question, of course an education can take place outside school - schools have not always existed, and yet men and women have made enormous strides in all areas of life throughout history. The ability to learn new things is particularly easy in this day and age when information is so readily available.

But thats what all of us have been saying for all this time. It's not like people do not get educated at home. It's not so difficult is it?? Learning you maths and sciences. But education is not only maths english and science!
There is so much more to an educated person.
An educated person would not only know the global new and newtons law of motion.
And school fills in the part of education besides science and maths.
All the xtra curricular activities the fun and games the crying and laughing the tears and smiles. It's all a part of education.
Education does not teach you to only read,write and understand. It teaches you to live well. Thats what school does. Teaches you to live a happy life. A life outside your textbooks.
Without school and it's extra curricular activities many people don't even realise their talents. It's in school that you have dramatics competitions and creative writing sports basket ball elocution and the rest. We don't have all of that at home schooling??
Everyone does not make a career out of science and maths. What about all the actors and orators and cricketers. If not given the opuurtunity how do you learn.
I just cannot imagine my life without school!
All of you who keep talking about bullying. But if schools exposes children o bullying it also provides means to ignore bullying and move on with life. It's not only in school that you will get bullied. You get bullied in office as well. Infact having a few fights in school makes you a stronger person. Would you stop going to office becasue you get bullied. How come people are so ready to leave school because of bullying??

Call me Erik, and yeah, I figured... ;)

Yeah, I see your point... But school can be a major drag aswell, and not just in terms of all the homework (which is truly starting to kill me these days). For me, it brought (and continues to bring) me more hate for myself than it has brought me joy (seeing as I blame myself and who I am for most of the things I've suffered - I see it as my own fault).

Drag NO WAY?? There is so much more to do. Besides homeowork would be there in home schooling as well right??
Do it over the phone while chatting with a friend. It gets a lot more fun!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

junika3

January 9th, 2006, 1:00 pm

Education can be divided into two halves. One is the Science, the Mathematics and the English. The other half is the morals, the values, the people skills, the learning to associate with other people, the having fun in school with friends and SO MUCH MORE!!! And mystic_22, I know what you mean, I can't do homework without a pen, some paper and the phone!!! LOL!!!!!

And in school, you get leadership skills, you learn how to work with a group, and you understand the value of TEAM WORK!!! How exactly are you supposed to get that at home???

And companies really do look at how you associate with a group these days. They can't have a sullen, silent person who doesn't know how to go-with-the-flow in the team work aspect and doesn't mingle very well. People skills really are needed. And schools is (primarily) where you GET people skills!

Murtlap

January 9th, 2006, 4:21 pm

Without school and it's extra curricular activities many people don't even realise their talents. It's in school that you have dramatics competitions and creative writing sports basket ball elocution and the rest. We don't have all of that at home schooling??
Everyone does not make a career out of science and maths. What about all the actors and orators and cricketers. If not given the opuurtunity how do you learn.

But you're wrong to assume that by education I am simply referring to maths and science - you are the one making that distinction. Drama, creative pursuits, sports and the rest are also accessible outside of schools. It's ridiculous to say that people who don't go to school will not have the opportunity to become 'actors and orators and cricketers'. These opportunities can be found elsewhere. I don't regard education to be a matter of learning a number of set subjects - education is a lifelong process, and as far as I am concerned, the best place for it is in the real world.

It teaches you to live well. Thats what school does. Teaches you to live a happy life. A life outside your textbooks.

Again, I can only assume here that your school, wherever it is, is vastly different to the school experience here in Scotland and Britain - I don't think anyone I know would view school as something that teaches you to live a happy life. At best it is regarded as something to endure until you're old enough to make your own life choices.

IC_Thestrals

January 9th, 2006, 4:38 pm

But thats what all of us have been saying for all this time.
NOt all of us I have been saying the exact opposite for several pages in case you have forgotten.
There is so much more to an educated person.
Some of the most influential people in this world were introverted and socialized very little.
Without school and it's extra curricular activities many people don't even realise their talents. It's in school that you have dramatics competitions and creative writing sports basket ball elocution and the rest. We don't have all of that at home schooling??
Are you not going to read or comprehend any of the opposing view points? Several of us have already said that you can easily put your kids in local clubs, teams and other activities. Girl/Boy scouts is open to homeschooled children.
What about all the actors and orators and cricketers.
You do realise you can go to any theatre and join a troup.
I just cannot imagine my life without school!
Yes, we got that already. What you don't seem to get is there are other people in this world who can and it does not make them wrong. The ability to comprehend situations that you are not involved in is a tricky bit of thinking that one does not develop till around 20 years of age and some never develop it so I really can't blame you for what you post.
How come people are so ready to leave school because of bullying??

The very fact that you have to ask this exposes that you have not experienced pain from another child as we have felt. I don't know how to explain it to you but please just trust that we have a very valid reason to want to leave school due to the pain of waking up and having to go to a place that feels like it should be the seventh circle of hell. I know you just cannot imagine not going to school and I understand that this is because you have yet to develop the mechanism that would allow you to think from another's perspective but we understand that you just can't imagine not going to school. It would be in your best interest to ponder another catch phrase as yours is getting kind of old.
And schools is (primarily) where you GET people skills!
Several of us have already explained that it is not. I didn't actually develop anything worthy of being called people skills till I left school and started working. This is because during school years, your brain has not finished connecting all of its nuerons. It has been proven (with the except of hyperdeveloped brains which are rare) that one does not truly develop the ability to "walk in another's shoes" till they are well out of school and around 20 years of age.

icklek

January 9th, 2006, 4:58 pm

Several of us have already explained that it is not. I didn't actually develop anything worthy of being called people skills till I left school and started working.

Exactly, when I was in school I was so shy that I couldn't answer a question in class without going bright red. The very thought of picking up a phone to speak to someone I had never met left me in a cold sweat. I only really overcame this when I started working and had to conduct training sessions and phone various companies to get quotes for various jobs etc.

I don't see how being with the same people day in, day out for years in school can develop your people skills, whereas in a working environment you come into contact with so many different people that you can't help become more outgoing (well, I did anyway, obviously everyone's different).

IC_Thestrals

January 9th, 2006, 5:06 pm

Exactly, when I was in school I was so shy that I couldn't answer a question in class without going bright red. The very thought of picking up a phone to speak to someone I had never met left me in a cold sweat. I only really overcame this when I started working and had to conduct training sessions and phone various companies to get quotes for various jobs etc.

I don't see how being with the same people day in, day out for years in school can develop your people skills, whereas in a working environment you come into contact with so many different people that you can't help become more outgoing (well, I did anyway, obviously everyone's different).
Exactly. I am in law enforcement. I was so shy about going to strangers houses and telling them they did something wrong I was almost petrifyed. The first time someone got really aggressive with me I realised I had to grow a backbone or I was going to find myself in some sort of trouble. I also learned with time that if your nice to people from the get go, they are less likely to become aggressive. You really don't learn this in school. I understand not everyone wants to go into law enforcement but I have worked all kinds of service jobs and labor jobs that taught me the best ways to handle all sorts of situations.

Mad_madeye

January 9th, 2006, 7:24 pm

Drag NO WAY?? There is so much more to do. Besides homeowork would be there in home schooling as well right??
Do it over the phone while chatting with a friend. It gets a lot more fun!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Yeah, but when it's so difficult and you're failing and you don't have the luxury of being destracted.... Then it gets kind of complicated, don't you think?

Education can be divided into two halves. One is the Science, the Mathematics and the English. The other half is the morals, the values, the people skills, the learning to associate with other people, the having fun in school with friends and SO MUCH MORE!!! And mystic_22, I know what you mean, I can't do homework without a pen, some paper and the phone!!! LOL!!!!!

And in school, you get leadership skills, you learn how to work with a group, and you understand the value of TEAM WORK!!! How exactly are you supposed to get that at home???

And companies really do look at how you associate with a group these days. They can't have a sullen, silent person who doesn't know how to go-with-the-flow in the team work aspect and doesn't mingle very well. People skills really are needed. And schools is (primarily) where you GET people skills!

Er... Well, first off - I have learned nothing of team work and leadership skills so far. Besides that I always have to do all the work, because everyone's either too thick or too lazy to do otherwise, anyway...

As for the people-skills... I can't say I've really improved at school...

Murtlap

January 9th, 2006, 8:15 pm

And companies really do look at how you associate with a group these days. They can't have a sullen, silent person who doesn't know how to go-with-the-flow in the team work aspect and doesn't mingle very well. People skills really are needed. And schools is (primarily) where you GET people skills!

Does school teach you that there is a diverse range of personalities and people in every walk of life? If so, you are showing no such awareness, because you're making some sweeping generalisations here to assume that a home schooled person must be 'sullen, silent' and unable to mingle. The only home schooled people I've met who are quiet are the ones still recovering from a horrendous school experience. There have been studies and research which show that home schooled people are at least as well-socialised as those regularly schooled.

starutena

January 10th, 2006, 8:03 am

. There have been studies and research which show that home schooled people are at least as well-socialised as those regularly schooled.

In my experience that's only if the parents take an active part in getting their kids involved outside the home: like little league or dance lessons.

As a teacher, I have a vested interest in public schooling. I truly think there is a role for the public school in the life of every child. However I do realize the complications and limitations of public schooling. There are things that I can or will not discuss in my classroom, partially due to my philosophy and partially due to the curriculuum I am required to teach by my state/district (thank you NCLB). I want my students to learn outside of my classroom. I want their parents to take an active role in their child's education. If that means homeschooling then so be it. I just wish that parents that choose to home school their children take a few classes on education. The internet provides a wonderful means for these classes.

DarkPhoenix72

January 10th, 2006, 8:29 am

School is only a small part of learning. You learn theory and occasionally do hands on stuff, but you do not do the real thing. Your work is done in a safe environment with no risks, and you're not trying to make a living with whatever field you are majoring in.

When you work a full-time job, you learn how to deal with people and how to realistcally apply your field of study to the world.
As this guy said:

The least of learning is done in the classrooms.- Thomas Merton

Murtlap

January 10th, 2006, 9:27 am

I just wish that parents that choose to home school their children take a few classes on education. The internet provides a wonderful means for these classes.

Can I ask if you're saying this because you have evidence or experience that parents who do not take classes on education do a poorer job? What is it that these classes would offer that you feel home schooling parents are missing? I'm not asking to be awkward or argue, I have a genuine interest in asking.

mystic_22

January 10th, 2006, 12:02 pm

Right Murtlap and IC_Thestrals we get your point ok.
Maybe it's just diffrent where you live.
No one is assuming that home schooled people are sullen and do not mingle.
It's just that in schools you really get to do a lot of stuff which you may or may not be got at homeschools.
And even if homeschooled children do all of that stuff it's not what it feels like doing it in school.
School has a different air to it which makes everything a lot more interesting and fun.
And what you all cannot deny is that there are somethings that can only be got from school and no where else!.
And by god you do develop social skills in school. There might be a few exceptions but on the whole people learn how to live and adjust yourselves with a wide variety of people.

Murtlap

January 10th, 2006, 2:47 pm

Right Murtlap and IC_Thestrals we get your point ok.

And what you all cannot deny is that there are somethings that can only be got from school and no where else!.

Firstly, your first sentence sounds as though you're saying 'you've said your bit, now shut up and let me have the last word'. We get your point too, but that doesn't mean we're not allowed any more comment.

I don't think there is anything worthwhile experienced at school that cannot be experienced outside of it. I'm speaking from the personal experience of being at school, at college, in various workplaces, doing various hobbies, doing voluntary work and a whole host of other situations.

I understand that school is an enormous and important element of your life, but it seems somewhat blinkered to think that everyone must experience your kind of slice of life in order to have fulfilment and become a fully rounded individual. School is not a prerequisite to living a full life, and in this day and age, it's less necessary than ever before.

IC_Thestrals

January 10th, 2006, 3:02 pm

Right Murtlap and IC_Thestrals we get your point ok.
Now your getting rude.
Maybe it's just diffrent where you live.
Or maybe its just different where you live.
No one is assuming that home schooled people are sullen and do not mingle.
Good because it would be a shame. I know many fine people who were home schooled.
It's just that in schools you really get to do a lot of stuff which you may or may not be got at homeschools.
We have already tryed to explain to you that you learn no more or less than you do at home. Please refrain from this argument because those who were home schooled may feel you are calling them underpriveledged and unsocialized.
And even if homeschooled children do all of that stuff it's not what it feels like doing it in school.
How would you know? :)
School has a different air to it which makes everything a lot more interesting and fun.
Please, this is your opinion. If you are going to continue to say stuff like this than kindly express that it is only your opinion and not fact.
And what you all cannot deny is that there are somethings that can only be got from school and no where else!.
I can deny it and I have denied it. You just can't except that school is not this mystical magical place you think it is. I can walk around saying how great the nuclear bomb is because it brought advances in science but that doesn't make it true. The nuclear bomb is responsible for terrible things. So is school and just because your one of the supporters of it does not make school this great place. It doesn't make it terrible (which is my view) but the truth is somewhere in the middle.
And by god you do develop social skills in school. There might be a few exceptions but on the whole people learn how to live and adjust yourselves with a wide variety of people.

DO you have a job? Full-time?

ripdd

January 10th, 2006, 10:46 pm

In my experience that's only if the parents take an active part in getting their kids involved outside the home: like little league or dance lessons.

As a teacher, I have a vested interest in public schooling. I truly think there is a role for the public school in the life of every child. However I do realize the complications and limitations of public schooling. There are things that I can or will not discuss in my classroom, partially due to my philosophy and partially due to the curriculuum I am required to teach by my state/district (thank you NCLB). I want my students to learn outside of my classroom. I want their parents to take an active role in their child's education. If that means homeschooling then so be it. I just wish that parents that choose to home school their children take a few classes on education. The internet provides a wonderful means for these classes.

starutena,
nice to hear from you. you make good points.
i hope i can set your mind at ease a little. in my experience first hand where i live and in the online community i am part of, homeschooling parents research probably more than a lot of other parents. for the most part (and i am not making this a blanket statement of course - there will always be those who do things for the wrong reasons - just as there are teachers who are just 'doing the job' to the minimum) the very act of taking on your child's education means you are going to be taking a more active role!

you make choices about 'style'. are you going to do a boxed curriculum? write your own? put together a package from the available purpose written homeschool unit studies? are you going to do a 'classical education'? charlotte mason literature based? or embrace the rich and unpredictable life of 'unschooling'?

having taught for 15 years in schools here i don't think an education degree as such is necessary at all. for a start all the classroom management is irrelevant!
most h/schooling parents i know do a lot of reading on parenting skills and extend their own learning on particular subjects.
it is one thing that the 'powers that be' seem not to be aware of, as the pushes here in australia for more regulation seem based on an idea of h/s parents as being basically ignorant. such a shame.

for the most part your concern re "I want their parents to take an active role in their child's education." is turned on it's head. we make choices about the *other* people who will take a role in our child/ren's education.

my children have a diverse and rich life full of different people and interests.

i applaud teachers in the state schools. it can be a thankless job. people seem ready to place the ills of modern society in their laps to solve.
homeschooling is one way to say we reject that as a place to blame and take responsibility ourselves for contributing to developing an environment for our children to thrive and develop the character, social skills and acquire the learning they will need to go on as well rounded adults.

peace all,
ripdd

junika3

January 11th, 2006, 5:27 am

Alright mystic_22, that WAS, to tell you the truth, rude. I mean, you're speaking pretty strongly yourself!

And murtlap, you’re right, I shouldn’t have said that (sullen, silent). But then, I didn’t say all home schooled people are silent and sullen. It’ just that the home schooled people I’ve known have tended to be less outgoing than others.

But no one has responded to this:
And in school, you get leadership skills, you learn how to work with a group, and you understand the value of TEAM WORK!!! How exactly are you supposed to get that at home???

And mad_madeye, maybe thats just your school. Or maybe you have picked up those skills, and you just didn’t notice…lol…

I've learnt loads about team work and co-operation, and I don't think I would have learned all that if I was homeschooled...

DarkPhoenix72

January 11th, 2006, 6:55 am

And in school, you get leadership skills, you learn how to work with a group, and you understand the value of TEAM WORK!!! How exactly are you supposed to get that at home???
Community volunteering is one way to do it. Sports can also teach you team work, depending on the sport. Just staying home and studying isn't good, exercise is one way to improve academics, since it improves your physical fitness and therefore you mental stamina. Studies show that people who exercise are more alert and get better scores/grades.

Murtlap

January 11th, 2006, 8:36 am

That's interesting. Actually, being a homeschooler/educator myself, it makes sense. I'd like to hear more about Brittish schools out of interest. By the way, I'm an American.

Schooling in Britain has been under fire for a number of years, but it's not improving. The main problems seem to be the strain which government puts on schools via a very proscribed curriculum and a lot of paperwork, testing etc, and the other very big problem is classroom indiscipline. There are constant reports in the news about the shocking statistics of attacks on teachers by pupils, ranging from spitting and shoving to kicking, throwing chairs and stabbing! These attacks seem to happen frequently, but even more frequent is the low-level disruption of kids being cheeky, making a noise and in general ruining any chance the teacher has of actually getting on and teaching the kids who are interested.

Teachers get a bad press in Britain, but they've got a hell of a job on their hands, and little support to do it. If a child is disrupting the class, they can send them out, but they cannot lay a hand on them to make them go if they prefer to stay in the class being a pest. There was a story in the press recently of two boys who had locked a girl in a school cupboard. The head-teacher told the boys to let the screaming girl out, they wouldn't, so the head had to physically move the boys aside. One of the boys claimed his arm was injured, and the head-teacher was suspended. The boys went unpunished.

Although the above is a news story and not personally known to me, I have heard many stories from friends whose kids are in school which are equally horrendous.

Teachers are at a loss as to how to discipline kids now, a common cry from unruly kids is 'you can't touch me, I'll get the police onto you' and sadly they are right - it is a crazy situation. Between trying to control an element of unruly kids and trying to teach a curriculum which allows no freedom to follow individual children's abilities or interests, teachers are really between a rock and a hard place.

Around one quarter of home educators in Britain are in fact teachers or ex-teachers, people who, having experienced the system, have no wish to put their own children through it.

I mentioned earlier that we've yet to meet a schooled child who doesn't envy my children's education, but now that I think about it, I've yet to meet a parent who disagrees with our choice either. Some parents are puzzled by the whole idea when I tell them (home education is only just becoming known in Britain, and many people at first assume I'm breaking the law!) but they then usually say to me they think it's a great idea, and they often tell me stories of their children's school which just confirm again to me that it's not a place I'd send my kids.

erica_7

January 11th, 2006, 9:21 am

There are constant reports in the news about the shocking statistics of attacks on teachers by pupils, ranging from spitting and shoving to kicking, throwing chairs and stabbing! These attacks seem to happen frequently, but even more frequent is the low-level disruption of kids being cheeky, making a noise and in general ruining any chance the teacher has of actually getting on and teaching the kids who are interested.

Wow... i live in Australia and don't hear things like that happening down here... but then i'm only 14 (almost 15 yay!... sorry couldn't help myself) and probably dont hear a lot of things. I know there's a big problem with teachers not getting paid enough though but that's about it. Oh well... actually i've heard of many teachers running out of the room crying but it's not because of violence or anything usually just because they're under stress and us kids don't make it any easier. hmmm... i kinda feel sorry for teachers.

junika3

January 11th, 2006, 9:53 am

Hmmm...here in India, we get very few cases of indiscipline in schools.

However, there is one thing I would like to discuss. In many schools in India (usually public schools in tiny villages), the teachers physically punish the students. As in rapp them on the knuckles hard with a wooden ruler, twist ears, slap faces, etc. I think it is pathetic and disgusting, it just hurting someone smaller and more helpless than you.

But it happens in very few schools, and only public ones. No one in cities really goes to public schools, only private ones. And the governments cracking down on it.

Since this happens only in very few schools, and almost EVERYONE I know above the age of six loves school. Including me.

ripdd

January 11th, 2006, 10:19 am

this is a very indirect way of answering a couple of the 'how does a homeschooled child get to experience xyz?' type questions.

last year, my daughter (aged 7) had an idea for a play.
she decided to write an idea for it (creative writing, penmanship etc) and then, with my help, made a flyer to hand out (computer skills, typing, formal writing, organizational skills) at a homeschool get together, inviting other children to be part of it. she approached people and their parents (social skills, small group public speaking, manners) explaining her idea and explaining the invitation. (this took quite a lot of nerve for her, but she did fine all by herself- with me only eavesdropping a couple of times .....shhhh don't tell).

on the appointed day our home was bustling and alive as we had about 15 kids from 5 families come over ages ranging from 2 (my son) to 10. one of the other mothers had done a lot of workshops and stuff (unbeknownst to us before that) so she helped them do lots of drama warm ups (drama, creative expression, group skills) and then they did a big brainstorm for their characters and the story.

the day was scheduled to go from 9-12 but everyone stayed till at least 2. (gotta love that flexibility). we all put in our food together and made a great lunch and the mums got to have a great time of socialization themselves!

we ended up having 3 more of these days over the next 2 weeks to plan and write the script. the only adult involvement was the parent fascillitating - and she was masterful at being hands off whilst still guiding it when necessary. (leadership and teamwork, creativity).
we then had another day a fortnight later where they drew their characters and decided on costumes (art, planning and design, creativity again).
the parents made costumes (some of the older kids practically made their own, my daughter helped me with hers and my other son helped with his too).

2 rehearsal days followed.

we then made a programme for a souvenir and to give to guests who came as audience, and thank you cards for the fascillitator. (computer skills, art, manners and social customs, organizational skills). then invitations for everyone to hand out. (see above!)

the day was just a roaring success. the actual play took about 25 minutes including interval (lol), (public speaking, drama, experience of an 'event') and was recorded on video by my dh (it was going to be an older h/school friend, but she was sick).
we had a bring and share lunch again and some people left at nearly dusk!

then my daughter and i made a lapbook project of the whole thing.

that is just one of the many wonderful experiences that my children have had in the past year. (albeit a highlight) :)

thanks for indulging me!

(edited to change all the dumbledores to daughters hehehe)

junika3

January 11th, 2006, 10:24 am

Murtlap

January 11th, 2006, 10:45 am

Alright, ripdd, but maybe you get that sort of experience EVERY DAY at school, not once in a week or whatever.

And schools are usually DESIGNED for a beautiful learning experience, while homes usually aren't. And I think you get better learnng material in school, too.

Would homeschooled kids get classes like P.E., Art, Music and things like that?
How would they?

Is there anything that says every day should be like that? Some days can be just for chilling out, some days for being alone or with just one or two close friends, and some days for being with a whole group of others. Every day can be different - what's the problem with that?

Can you give some examples of how schools are designed for a 'beautiful learning experience'?

Why shouldn't homeschooled kids be able to get classes like the ones you mention? My daughter is 6yrs old, so far she has had classes in swimming, Tae Kwon Do, she has regular art classes at Edinburgh's biggest art gallery, studies drama and has appeared in a month long run of a show at one of Edinburgh's main theatres, is about to begin pottery classes, and studies music at home with me (I did music at college, so am qualifed :D ). She has the whole world open to her to learn anything she wants to learn.

ripdd

January 11th, 2006, 8:41 pm

ok. what i posted about was NOTHING like anything i ever experienced in school, or my daughter, or her father, or any of the people there. the by product is that they happened to *also* get all those things that happened in school - for those who were wondering *if* that was possible. but the richness experience was not bound within a lesson period and there was no imposed lesson plans etc etc.

i have HEARD that some people here have a wonderful school experience and that is fantastic.
but it is definately NOT being heard and/or acknowledged that there are OTHER ways to do things that *can* also be immensely rewarding and effective.

i will bow out of this thread now. all the best to you in your educational endeavours.

IC_Thestrals

January 12th, 2006, 6:17 am

here in India,
Off topic: I would love to visit India someday.
.
i will bow out of this thread now. all the best to you in your educational endeavours.
Thank you Ripdd for sharing that with us. I have been arguing for pages that homeschooling works and the children come out no worse for the wear and in many cases better off but as the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

junika3

January 12th, 2006, 12:50 pm

Alright, so maybe you CAN get other activities if you're homeschooled.

Is there anything that says every day should be like that? Some days can be just for chilling out, some days for being alone or with just one or two close friends, and some days for being with a whole group of others. Every day can be different - what's the problem with that?

Now, each of the experiences that you just mentioned are experiences themselves!

And when you're in school, you tend to be with more people most of the day, and yet, if you want to be alone, or want to hang out with just a few people, you can do that, too. Don't you tend to be without company of your own age most of the day (unless you have a twin or sibling your age or something)? I think its better to hang out with people your age for a large part of the day. Exposes you to more cultures, more races, more religions, more backgrounds, more people.

IC_Thestrals, come on over to India! You'll love it!

Murtlap

January 12th, 2006, 2:06 pm

Alright, so maybe you CAN get other activities if you're homeschooled.

Now, each of the experiences that you just mentioned are experiences themselves!

And when you're in school, you tend to be with more people most of the day, and yet, if you want to be alone, or want to hang out with just a few people, you can do that, too. Don't you tend to be without company of your own age most of the day (unless you have a twin or sibling your age or something)? I think its better to hang out with people your age for a large part of the day. Exposes you to more cultures, more races, more religions, more backgrounds, more people.

No, you don't tend to be without company most of the day, since just about every homeschooler I know has numerous social engagements throughout the week. I don't think it's necessary for company to be of your own age either - it's a much richer experience to spend time in the company of a diverse range of ages. How can spending every day in the company of the same classmates expose you to more people than being out and about every day meeting new and different people?

My point here is not to try to degrade or deride your school experience, but to illustrate that a homebased education is just as valid, just as beneficial and just as productive in all areas.

miri

January 13th, 2006, 2:03 am

All of you who keep talking about bullying. But if schools exposes children o bullying it also provides means to ignore bullying and move on with life. It's not only in school that you will get bullied. You get bullied in office as well. Infact having a few fights in school makes you a stronger person. Would you stop going to office becasue you get bullied. How come people are so ready to leave school because of bullying??

It might interest you to know that bullying is actually usually frowned upon in the workplace. If somebody is physically assaulted by their workmates, they can be arrested and serve time for assault. Verbal bullying is also discouraged. Slander, causing emotional distress, interfering with somebody else's ability to do their job properly... Were it to originate from a boss, there are unions to help people confront them and take them to court.

Having a few fights in school may make you stronger, if it teaches you that you aren't helpless and that you can defend yourself. How do the experiences people mentioned here help? How does having your human rights violated help people?

I was bullied in Junior school. I went to America for two years then returned to England and my old school. I spent three years there, being bullied. And because I didn't want to be a "tattle-tale", it took two and a half for me to tell anyone. I learnt that, physically, I'm stronger than I look. I learnt that because most days I'd find myself outnumbered 3 to 1. Alone. No friends.

What else did I learn from it? I learnt that I was somehow different. I began to learn that I was powerless. I was 10 when I first considered suicide because I thought I was a waste of space and resources.

If my experiences from then on had all been positive, then perhaps it would have become a bad memory. Something that I need not think about. However, other experiences unrelated to bullying and not directly related to school reinforced those feelings of powerlessness - I believed that I was useless and unable to change anything.

That was a learnt response. Again, if I hadn't been bullied and had just had those experiences - if they had come to me without my self-esteem having been completely destroyed beforehand, perhaps I wouldn't have taken them to heart. They didn't directly affect me, just people who I love.

Basically, I was "taught" depression. My experiences constantly reinforced helplessness. It took a long time for me to even realise that I was worth spending the time and effort to try to change that. It took even longer for that to succeed.

That's obviously not quite on topic, but perhaps explaining just how damaging bullying can be long term will help those people here who think that people "quit" when they decided that the school systems can be incredibly barbaric, and that even the toughest experiences within it's confines have to be positive.

The saying "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is not true. Stress is a higher cause of heart attacks than smoking.

Bullying should NOT be a problem in schools. Teachers should be trained, have the staff tostudent ratios needed to monitor situations, to detect when pupils are unhappy, to tackle causes of bullying, etc etc etc. However, that is not the case.

People have said that given the choice, they would elect to send their child to a school with a good reputation rather than bad. IC_Thestrals has stated that that simply will not be an option when she has children because of the area she lives in. To my mind, it seems logical then that she'd rather educate them at home.

People such as ripdd have explained that home-schooled children do not live trapped in their house, only interacting with their parents and siblings (should any exist), and that home-schooling tends to result in just as, if not more, diverse oportunities and activities.

My memories of secondary school are mixed. It was kinda nice going somewhere where I knew I'd see my friends. I'm pretty disorganised, so for me it was great that I had that arranged for me ;) On the other hand, the emphasis was very much on academic success, with very little emotional support from the staff.

I definitely enjoyed the sixth form more than I enjoyed my lower years. After facing up to my inner demons, and stopping hating myself, I found it a lot easier to be myself and have fun.